41 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/41774088b21335181c6730be7444d171.jpg dfa9269d08933e281a9474035c33e6e1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fd8b1d82d66849bb9b20e5a76530d3da.mp3 4ba138d541daa24b62bd12371bed9dd8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Troy D. Perry Date of Interview 2010-05-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 124:39 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Rev. Troy Perry is an author, activist and founder of the Metropolitan Community Church, which belongs to a Protestant denomination known for affirming with the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender communities. He became a licensed Baptist preacher by the age of 15 and was a pastor of several churches several years later, during which he was battling with his sexuality. Perry wrote several books including his autobiography, The Lord is My Shephard and He Knows I'm Gay.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Rev. Troy Perry is an author, activist, and founder of the Metropolitan Community Church, which belongs to a Protestant denomination known for affirming with the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender communities. He became a licensed Baptist preacher by the age of 15 and was a pastor of several churches several years later, during which he was battling with his sexuality. Perry wrote several books including his autobiography, <em>The Lord is My Shephard and He Knows I'm Gay</em>.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Activism; Gay Rights; Ronald Reagan; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Stonewall Riots; Vietnam Memorial; AIDS; religion; Anti-war; Vietnam Veterans; Leonard Matlovich, LGBT.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Activism; Gay Rights; Ronald Reagan; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Stonewall Riots; Vietnam Memorial; AIDS; religion; Anti-war; Vietnam Veterans; Leonard Matlovich, LGBT.</span> Subject LCSH Clergy; Authors, American--20th century; Civil rights workers; Metropolitan Community Church; Perry, Troy D.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Troy Perry Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Perry, Troy D. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Clergy; Authors, American--20th century; Civil rights workers; Metropolitan Community Church; Perry, Troy D.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Rev. Troy Perry is an author, activist, and founder of the Metropolitan Community Church, which belongs to a Protestant denomination known for affirming with the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender communities. He became a licensed Baptist preacher by the age of 15 and was a pastor of several churches several years later, during which he was battling with his sexuality. Perry wrote several books including his autobiography, <em>The Lord is My Shephard and He Knows I'm Gay</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.145a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.145b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 124:39 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7789437e35860a32553a8052475dfea7.jpg a048daeb5ca1622e16d2e74bbfac6251 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f72c72f36185a93e669ac2af9a0a00a7.mp3 0cb803c04d6bc43ca16c80a8b9d072f0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bernice Resnick Sandler Date of Interview 2010-10-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 191:46 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Bernice Sandler is an educator, consultant, and women's rights activist, best known for being instrumental in the creation of Title IX. She has received numerous awards and honors for her work on women’s rights and was inducted into the Maryland Women's Hall of Fame And the National Women's Hall of Fame. Dr. Sandler currently acts as a Senior Scholar at the Women’s Research and Education Institute in Washington, DC Sandler received her Master's degree of Clinical and School Psychology from the City College of New York and her Ed.D. from the University of Maryland in Counseling and Personnel Services.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Bernice Sandler is an educator, consultant, and women's rights activist, best known for being instrumental in the creation of Title IX. She has received numerous awards and honors for her work on women’s rights and was inducted into the Maryland Women's Hall of Fame And the National Women's Hall of Fame. Dr. Sandler currently acts as a Senior Scholar at the Women’s Research and Education Institute in Washington, DC Sandler received her Master's degree of Clinical and School Psychology from the City College of New York and her Ed.D. from the University of Maryland in Counseling and Personnel Services.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Military women; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Woodstock; Generation gap; Sexism; Attica prison riot; Women's Rights Movement; Baby boom generation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Military women; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Woodstock; Generation gap; Sexism; Attica prison riot; Women's Rights Movement; Baby boom generation.</span> Subject LCSH Women's rights—United States; Human rights workers; United States.--Education Amendments of 1972.--Title IX; Sandler, Bernice Resnick--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Bernice Sandler Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 12 October 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two. I got two of these. And this is my better one. BS (00:00:09): Okay. SM (00:00:11): I have to check on them to make sure the better- BS (00:00:13): They should be in different places when you get one. SM (00:00:14): Yep. BS (00:00:14): Because- SM (00:00:18): I think the last 50 I have made two copies. BS (00:00:20): Two copies, yeah. Well, that is a good start, but you have got to get them digitalized. Okay. SM (00:00:26): Here we go. My first question is, could you tell me a little bit about your growing up years? Who were your role models? Did you have female role models when you were a lot younger? Or men who you admired, who treated women properly when you were younger? Like your high school years and- BS (00:00:49): Yeah. I grew up during the depression. I was a young child during the depression, so there was not a lot of money. My mother and her whole family are very strong people. I mean, people who know me are always surprised when I say I was known in the extended family of my mother's as the shy, quiet, passive one. SM (00:01:10): Oh wow. BS (00:01:11): And grew up with that image, which I did not get rid of until by the end of my undergraduate education. I was beginning to think maybe that was not what I was, but comparatively that is what I was. So there were lots of strong women and strong men, and my mother was a good role model. She did some work during the depression, but was always ambivalent about work because you only worked if your husband did not have enough money. And that was true during the depression. There was not enough money. So she was ambivalent about working, but she liked working. And she had worked before she was married. And one day when she was older, she really threw me a loop. We were talking about, I do not know what, and she said if she had to do it over, she would have been a stockbroker. And I was just so surprised. And she was a very bright woman, one of the first in her family to finish high school. But my parents knew I was going to college before I did. I knew I was going to college before I knew what high school was. I mean, I was identified as a very bright child and sometimes in families, one kid's the bright kid, one kid's a pretty kid. SM (00:02:22): And that is in Brooklyn? BS (00:02:24): This is in Brooklyn? Flatbush, New York. SM (00:02:26): Yeah. BS (00:02:27): Yeah. Fairly good school systems. And went to a very good high school, Erasmus Hall High School, which in those days was producing one of the highest amounts of PhDs from high schools other than Bronx High School of Science, and I think in Brooklyn Tech. So it was a really good school academically. So I mean, I just knew I was going to college. This was not an option. And I finished high school at 16 and wanted to work, and my mother said, "No, you are going to college." SM (00:02:52): That is early. BS (00:02:54): And yeah, well, they did that in New York. If you were smart, they would skip. I mean, scads of people skipped that were my age when I graduated. You skipped where there were rapid classes. You could take rapid advanced classes and whatnot. My father was always very respectful towards women. It was a different time though, and he certainly did not do any of the housework or help in any substantial ways. But he was certainly respectful of women. He was not power driven in his relationships with women. SM (00:03:28): Did your teachers treat you differently than they treated the male students? Because in other words, during that period in the forties and (19)50s and early (19)60s, a lot of women became teachers and they were secretaries and librarians. BS (00:03:46): Yes, I was a secretary after I had my master's degree. I had a master's degree in clinical psychology and worked as a secretary twice. SM (00:03:57): But were there people that did not seem... You have been very outspoken about that, that men were really pushed and women were not in those times? BS (00:04:10): Absolutely. SM (00:04:11): Particularly after World War II. BS (00:04:15): Yeah. Let me just go back. SM (00:04:19): I would just check these. You can go ahead- BS (00:04:19): If it is working. I would hate to do the whole interview with- SM (00:04:24): Well, I got two of them. That is helpful too. BS (00:04:30): Yeah. We did not have a word for discrimination or differential treatment. This is just the way it was. It is only as an adult as we have developed the use of the word sex discrimination that I and lots of women look back and say, "oh my God, I never noticed that." For example, there were three things I wanted to do as a child in school, and I never got to do them. And one was I wanted to be the crossing guard, only in my school- SM (00:04:56): Oh yeah. BS (00:04:57): Only boys could be the crossing guards. And what I did not realize is I ran for a few years before my knees gave out is one of the first things I bought was a red sash for night running, which I did not really need, but it is what future forcing guards wore. Not when I was wanting to be one, but that is what they wore like now. And I bought this fashion and I loved wearing it when I ran. And I did not make that connection. SM (00:05:23): Now was this the mid (19)50s or late (19)50s? BS (00:05:25): I was running in the (19)70s. SM (00:05:27): Okay. BS (00:05:28): Yeah. I also wanted to run the slide projector. This was the big audiovisual technology of the day. And only boys were allowed to do it. And one of the- SM (00:05:39): But the school would only allow boys to do it? BS (00:05:41): The teachers would only call on boys to do it because they are smarter with mechanical things. I guess just boys did it. I mean, you did not ask. This is the way life was. SM (00:05:49): Right. BS (00:05:51): It is like the sun is shining. You do not say, "why is the sun shining?" It just is kind of thing. And again, I did something and I did not realize it. One of the first things I did when I started making money was buying my own slide projector and screen. And the third one is the boys. This is in the time of inkwells, and not everybody will know what an inkwell is, but it is before ball point pens and your desk got a little hole in it. And this little tiny- SM (00:06:18): I remember that. BS (00:06:19): Inkwell fit in there, and someone had to put ink in the inkwell for you. And only boys could do that. They could get to go to the basement of the school, which was off limits. I mean, I never saw the basement in that school. Only boys got to do it. They would go downstairs. They would fill a big bottle up with ink, and then they would pour the ink into everybody's inkwell. And I remember I wanted to do that. I wanted to see what the basement looked like. And I knew I could pour as well as anybody else. But you had no word for it. So this is the way it is. SM (00:06:49): And this is the way... When you are talking about the boomer generation, those born from 1946 to 1964, in elementary school, they all had that- BS (00:07:01): They had similar experiences. SM (00:07:03): Mm-hmm. BS (00:07:04): They had similar experiences. My daughter, this would have been in the early (19)60s in Ann Arbor, was in first grade and was bored stiff because she had already learned to read. And I complained to the teacher. I said, "She is really coming home and saying she is bored." And the teacher says, "What are you worried about? She is only going to get married." So these are coming. And if you do not have a word for it, you do not say that is discrimination against girls. You say that is a stupid teacher. Even if she is married, you still want her to learn and be intelligent. So you have no word for it until the women's movement begins in the early (19)60s. But I had not noticed that, and this would have been in the early (19)60s, just as the women's movement is beginning. So these things happened to girls. When I went to school during the World War II in high school, everybody had to take a war course. Some sort of course related to the war. Because it is a big war. And you probably will be working after high school or college. Who knows if the war will be finished. And so I got to take physics. Otherwise, I never would have taken physics. Now, I did not understand very much of a course. And the teacher did not teach it very well. All the girls got A's. I did not deserve an A. It is the only A that was ever undeserved. But I got an A. I did not understand most of it except about leathers, which I found interesting. But we were such outsiders in the class that the teacher treated us differently. The teacher, the guy, did not expect us to know physics. SM (00:08:45): Is not it interesting? This is a question later on, but I will say it now. But when you think of the 1950s and being in elementary school, and then the front edge boomer started junior high school in 1959 and 1960, that was when they started seventh grade. Here you have this situation that women have been kind of not treated properly or discriminating in the areas of science, math, and technology. Yet most of the teachers that were in elementary school, I do not ever remember a male teacher. I do not know but our whole elementary school had nothing but female teacher. BS (00:09:31): We had one male science teacher. When you think of the message that this gives to boys and girls, only boys, males, do science. In high school, some of the science and math teachers were in economics. There were not as many women, but there were a good number of women. It was the depression ending. And many men went into teaching, at least in New York City because it was a well-paying job if you could get one. And you got tenure. You know, did not get fired so fast. So you had a lot of very bright people who were teaching. And you had more men probably at that time because of the depression. I have not thought of that to just now, but that makes sense. And I did have some brilliant teachers. I mean, I knew they were brilliant because they was so much smarter than anybody else I had ever met in my life. SM (00:10:15): What about the female teachers of the 1950s? I remember I went to Utica. I lived in Utica. I remember Cortland State was sending out teachers galore. BS (00:10:25): Yeah. SM (00:10:26): SUNY Cortland. BS (00:10:27): It was a teachers college. SM (00:10:27): Yeah, it is a teacher's college. They were sending them out. And I can remember I went to partner school in Cortland for a little while. And it was all females. No men. But the men were in the administration. BS (00:10:38): Yes. Yeah. SM (00:10:38): Dr. Silverman ran the school. But I found it interesting where elementary school female teachers told to not inspire their female students here- BS (00:10:48): No-no-no. You did not have to tell anybody. SM (00:10:50): Okay. BS (00:10:51): You did not have to tell anybody. Everybody knows girls grow up to be married and they had better be married or they will have a terrible life. They will be spinsters. And the best thing is marry somebody who makes a good living. SM (00:11:03): Right. BS (00:11:03): Because one, you do not have to work. Because you might lose your husband through divorce or death and have to work. But nobody talks about that. SM (00:11:10): Right. BS (00:11:12): But this is what is in the air. This is what you breathe. You go to the movies and that is what you see with the exception of Catharine Hepburn. And every young girl like me growing up adored Catharine Hepburn. We do not know what and we did not realize why, but she was doing interesting stuff. We could go back and see those pictures. There is a good deal of ambivalence in her roles. And she tries to make her husband happy by cooking. And she does not do that and whatnot. So you could see she was damaged because she has been working. She does not even know how to cook. I mean, there is a very mixed message that you get there. SM (00:11:48): You received your PhD at the University of Maryland in 1969. BS (00:11:53): Yeah. It is an EdD. SM (00:11:54): Yeah. BS (00:11:54): Not a PhD. SM (00:11:55): What were the years you were an undergrad at Brooklyn College and then in your master's program at CUNY? BS (00:12:03): Yeah. SM (00:12:03): What were they like with respect to women in society and the inequities of women that may have been faced after World War II? What was it like even at Maryland in 1969? BS (00:12:14): Well, there were lots of things that happened. I know a lot about Maryland because I was there and I got elected to the Alumni Hall of Fame a few months ago. SM (00:12:25): Congratulations. I saw that back. BS (00:12:28): Yes. And I did two classes yesterday for them. And so I have done a lot of thinking and reminded myself of some of the experiences. So I will start with the University of Maryland. Because this is my doctoral works. And this is most recent from either 1964 or 1965. I am not sure when I started and I finished in 1969. The first thing that happened is I applied for admissions to the psych department because that is my real field that I started with. And I cannot get to talk to any professor. Nobody will talk to me at all. And this is a small department. I cannot get anybody to talk. So I do not know what is going on. It is very unusual, I think, because usually you can call and say, "Can I speak to one of the professors to ask about the program and what it is like?" Secretaries would not let me do that. Fortunately, I go to a party and the head of the admissions committee is there. So we now have something in common. And I start to talk to him. I said, "I have been applying and I have not been able to talk to anybody." And he explains it. He says, " well, we do not take too many women, especially older women." I am in my thirties, my late thirties at this point. And so again, I think this is weird. You do not have a name for it. You do not have a name. You do not see a pattern. Just what are they saying there? So I have this big conversation about him and I asked him who his best students were? Because I thought this out earlier. And he says, "the veterans." I said, "Well, I am like the veterans. I have been out for a while taking care of my kids. And I am highly motivated just like the veterans." So I sell him essentially, and he lets me in. Okay. He was right. They do not have too many women. There were about 20 men and about five women in that accepted group. So that is the first thing that happens. Second thing that happens is I do not like this department. Because it is mostly animal psychology. The few women that I know that are there in that department, we joke. I remember this is we are standing in the hallway near the lady's room and one of us, I do not remember who says, "One day we are going to come to this building and the lady's room is going to be gone." That is a joke. Now, we did not have a name for what we were sensing. We were sensing, and we did not talk about experiences, but we just knew that this place was not good on women. So I transferred over to the psych department, to the counseling department, which is a much more hospitable place to women. At least half the students are women. And they do not have any trouble accepting me at all, except a number of things happened. My advisor says in class, he says, "Women should not be professionals." Now he is teaching graduate courses. SM (00:15:17): What year is this? BS (00:15:18): This would have been 1966. SM (00:15:19): Unbelievable. BS (00:15:19): 1965. Not unbelievable. Not unbelievable. SM (00:15:24): Well, I know. But I know it was happening with all the movements at that time. BS (00:15:31): And people realize that something is wrong. Well, he is realizing there is something wrong with the movements because women should not be professionals. He says this in a class half full of women who are going there for their master's or doctoral degrees. Do you think anybody challenged him? Of course not. Somebody said, "well, why not?" And he said, "Because doctors would be able to put their profession first and their family second." And any other thing that women would be in, they would put their family first and therefore they should not be professionals. SM (00:16:03): It is kind of like what Phyllis Schack was thinking, yeah. BS (00:16:05): Yeah, okay. But he was in the department. He has got a doctorate. He went to Case Western Reserve, which is a good school. He has got his credential and he says things like that. So that is not so good. I decided conflict, he was my advisor. So I have to go to him with a thesis subject and ask if I can develop a plan to do a thesis on my subject. So I raised the subject. I am thinking young women make vocational decisions later than young men, partly because I do not know if this is still true. It was true then partly because they did not know if they would get married and where they would be and what they would be doing. So they push those, maybe I will get married next week. And people get married in college, whatever. And even in high school in those days. And so I thought, and I say, "I would really like to do some work in this area." And I tell him what I am interested in. And he looks at me with a shocked, stunned expression. And he says, "research on women. That is not real research. No. Find another topic." End of conversation. Now that is pretty harsh. Did I call it discrimination? No. I paid him. Nutty guy. I did not even make the connection between the two remarks about women should not be professionals. So that happened. And then I get my degree, and I am teaching. I have been teaching in the department for a while, and the department has a big expansion. And they do not even consider me. And they are hiring new doctoral people who just got their doctorate when I did, but they do not even think of it. So I go and I ask one of the professors I am friendly with and I say, "Hey, you know what? What is going on here? How come they did not even think of me?" And I know I am a good teacher and all of that. And he says and he meant it as a nice, I mean, he was not angry or sarcastic. And he says, "Let us face it, Money. You come on too strong for a woman." Too strong for a woman. I go home and I cry. Never should have participated in my classes, never should have opened my mouth. And then husband was really very good on this issue. And he said, "Are there strong men in the department?" I said, "Yeah, all the guys are strong." He said, "Then it is not you. It is discrimination." SM (00:18:32): Wow. BS (00:18:32): Discrimination. I am not even sure I believe this, but I was fortunate. I had two more bad experiences within the next two or three months. One was, let me finish this part. Okay, we can go back. One was, I went to an interview for a research position, which I was well qualified for. And the guy spent the entire hour not talking about my qualifications or what I would be doing, but why he did not want to hire women with children. And I am saying, "This is logical." I am saying, "But my kids are in high school." He said, "Yeah, but women want to stay home when their kids are sick." I said, "I have healthy kids. I do not stay home if they have a cold." I do not stay home for that. And the whole interview was around this. So well, I saw this was something wrong. At least it did not look logical. And then I had another experience where I went to an employment agency and the guy looks at my application, he says, "Oh, you are not a professional. You are a housewife who went back to school." This was the doctorate kind of thing. So the three things really got me thinking. And at that point I got interested, but I had never put all those other things together. There was another incident at Maryland, which I thought of recently. Oh, because I was talking to them and I was relating it, and I cannot remember, maybe it will come to me. But there was a third incident on women's issues. Well, there were no women in the department but one. And years later, I realized they would have one woman come for two years or three years, would not give her a tenure and she would leave. She would leave if you do not get tenure, then they would hire another woman. So the other thing, this was interesting, and I did not figure this out so much later, is the graduating class for the doctorate had about five men, and I think six women. Very close, something like that. And all of the men got offers from all over the country to teach in various places. And I cannot figure this out for anything. So how did people know that this guy is graduating? Well now when I think about it, I know what happened. Either the guy went to one of the professors and said, "Do you know of any job openings? I am looking, anyone I should write to or contact?" Or professor heard of a job and said, "Hey, Jim-" SM (00:21:04): Recommended him. BS (00:21:06): "I got a job for you. You got to call this guy right away." So another thing happened, and I mean, I had never seen the pattern. This is what is so interesting. SM (00:21:13): Everything is coming together. BS (00:21:16): If you do not have a word for it, each thing is an individual experience. There is a really nice fellowship that they give in this department for people who want to teach. And that is what I want to do is be a college professor. So I will apply for it and I do not get it. So I give it to one of the guys I know, and I know enough about graduate school where I know if you do not get some of the goodies, you better ask because they may not want you to get a degree. And if that is where I am, then I need to know this now rather than spending all my time and money on it. So I ask again, one of the professors that I like, and I say, "I am just curious why it went to Gary rather than to me." It is like, do I do something wrong or whatever, however I put it. And he says, "Oh, no. No." He says, "We did give it to Gary because he is married" and I stupidly say, "I am married too." I did not even get the message. The message is that Gary supports a wife and therefore needs this money. I am married, so therefore I do not need it. This is the reasoning that is going on. Now, if they were doing it on the basis of need, and I did not figure this out till much later. Once they to do it on the basis of need, then they should ask. There is nothing in the grant criteria that says put in something about whether you need the money and how much money you make and whatnot. So they do not know how much money my husband makes or whether we owe money or are supporting older parent. They have no idea. And similarly with Gary, they do not know whether his wife even works or if he needs the money. Maybe he came from a rich family. I mean, I do not know. But they never asked. But that was the unridden criteria. SM (00:22:52): The assumptions. BS (00:22:53): The assumptions, yeah. Yeah. So this is pervasive. This is throughout the whole culture. It is there and nobody is noticing it. When Betty Ford's book comes out, she is not talking about discrimination incidentally, she is talking about unhappy middle-class housewife housewives. And she was absolutely right to identify that group. And she never mentions the word discrimination in her book. I went back and reread it to find out. But what she does is she gives women permission to complain about the state of being a woman, that being a housewife is not so fulfilling as the myth was. And so that becomes very important to a lot of people. Now she is not the beginning of the women's movement. Women's movement begins much earlier. And I do not know if President Kennedy appointed a commission on women in 1960. SM (00:23:46): And I know you were involved with Lyn and Johnson's and is- BS (00:23:51): I am not involved with that commission. SM (00:23:54): But not yet. But you were on the- BS (00:23:57): Later I was on John Ford and Carter. That is the National Advisory Council on Women's Educational Programs. That is later. But this early stuff, when things happen like this to you, you do not have a word and you do not make connections. You do not say, "Ah, this is just what happened before." Some people do make the connection, and some of those are very angry people. Some of them are bitter. Some of them have worked alongside men and seen incompetence. People go up ahead of them and they at least see the discrimination. But the other thing that has struck me, and this is with the group of people you are talking about. The younger people is because you look at women in college now. They do not see any discrimination. All the problems are solved, and they get out into the work world and they are in their thirties or forties. They begin to notice the guys they went to school with are doing a lot better than they are. Even if they do not have any children. The guys tend to be doing better. I mean, the women are still not making the money, but they do not notice this when they are in college. And why do not they notice it in college? Because this is the last meritocracy they will be in. This is the last bastion of equality for girls. This is the closest for girls and young women school. This is the closest they will ever come to equality now. It is all downhill when they leave. Now they do not believe this and they have not heard it that way. And maybe someday, if I get the idea up, I will write an article about this, but college is a meritocracy. You write a good paper. If you are an A student, you may get a B if the teacher's not as fair as you think, but she is not going to give you an F or a D. And similar, if you are a D student, they are not going to give you an A. SM (00:25:48): You should have seen the front page of the Philadelphia Inquirer this two or three days ago. On Sunday's paper, it was about the fact that there are more female students than male students in college. And they went to 20 different schools in the Philadelphia area ranging from Lincoln University, which is an African American school. BS (00:26:06): I know that. SM (00:26:06): Which has very few, I think it is almost 70 percent women. And I know Delaware, they were really at the University of Delaware and they were at Penn and other schools. And it is like men are fewer than women. And of course a lot of men go to the military or choose vocational. But it is now becoming a concern to undergraduate universities because the women are saying, "If there is too many women at this school, I do not want to go to that school because I want to go to a school where there are more men." BS (00:26:37): Maybe. If they notice. They do not always know. They do not always know. SM (00:26:37): Yeah. And then guys would love to be in all kinds of- BS (00:26:37): That is right. They do not mind. SM (00:26:42): Yeah. But now the universities are worried that white men or that men are going to be- BS (00:26:58): Okay. Let me tell you what the story is. Because the American Council on Education has been following this. What is going on with guys that they are not going to college? It is not true for upper class or middle-class boys. Those young men are going to college and they are doing well in college. Many of them. And that is not where the problem is. The problem is primarily with poor working people and people of color. Those are the ones where the disparities between men and women are much greater. What are the reasons for this? Not sure. Not sure. One of them, one theory is that they can get better paying jobs after college. They do not need to go to college. There are good jobs in construction before the recession. There are good jobs in construction and in factories which pay well, and therefore they do not need it. Other possibilities, our culture is such that boys end up as a group with less better. That is not the word, less better. With less study skills. They are study skills like handing in your homework and doing it on time. Girls have much better study skills. That is why they get higher grades. SM (00:28:14): Yeah. I kind of broke it down here that, what was it like? I asked this to other people. Susan Brown Miller and others too. It is just not so much in higher education as just in society as a whole. When you look at that period, 1946 to 1960, I think you have described it perfectly. BS (00:28:34): Yeah. It is there and nobody notices it. SM (00:28:34): And then you get the 1961, Kennedy comes in. Then you get the 1961 to 1970. You have got the (19)60s, what was it? And then you got the 1971 to 1980 before Reagan comes in. And a lot of people say, "Well, some people told me there was more happening in the (19)70s than there was in the (19)60s." BS (00:28:51): There was a lot happening during that time. SM (00:28:54): So those two decades, where were boomer women? BS (00:28:58): The (19)60s, first of all, you have women working during World War II. Middle poor women have always worked incidentally. And when people say women should stay home and take care of their kids, they are not talking about poor women. They are talking about middle class women. But during World War II, middle class white women are working. You need them. You need them in the workforce. You really do not need these campaigns that they talk about, Rosie the Riveter kind of thing. Those women, they are quite happy to work. They are husbands are away or their boyfriends are away. It is adventuresome to work. You have more independence. You make money. So you do not have any trouble recruiting these women to work. And they are willing to do men's jobs, which always happens in the war. They do men's jobs. So that is what is happening in World War II. World War II ends. A lot of women are pushed out. The veterans are coming. They get tenure in a job. If they were working before the war, they get tenure for the whole war. So they have more tenure, more experience, more seniority. Tenure is not the right word. SM (00:30:03): What about the G.I. Bill though? The G.I. Bill was for World War II. Where were the women in the G.I. Bill? BS (00:30:09): Well, it covered women who were in the war, but that was a small quota. You did not have that many women, but those women got the G.I. Bill as well. But what happens with the G.I. Bill is you are keeping a lot of women out of college because you are letting all these guys in and there is a flood of them. People are putting beds and gymnasiums to let these guys in. I mean, they deserve it. They have fought in the war, and you should let them in. But at the same time, you are not going to have a drop of women go into colleges, and nobody cares about that. I remember trying to transfer from Brooklyn College to another college. My folks had made enough money during the war and they could afford to send me to a state college. And so a friend of mine had the same idea too. We both wanted to get away from home. We were teenagers, and so we applied to a whole bunch of state colleges. We only got applications from two. All the others said, "due to the influx of the G. I.'s, we do not accept transfer students anymore." And they also accepted lesser admissions. SM (00:31:06): Wow. BS (00:31:06): Yeah. I just realized that recently. Again, I have been teaching a course. So I have been going for- SM (00:31:12): There is a brand-new book on the G.I. Bill. It just came up. BS (00:31:15): Yeah, I heard about it. Absolutely. SM (00:31:16): I bought it and I got to read it. BS (00:31:18): Absolutely great. It made a whole bunch of guys who would not go to college. It put them into the middle class. And we should be doing that again, I think. But we are not with the new G.I. Bill is not as good as that one was in terms of paying for housing allowances and money to live on and so forth and so on. But anyway, what is happening after World War II? Some of the women are pushed out. Some of them liked working and remained in the workforce. And this is what in one sense, the discontent that women feel comes from the middle class. Women who are at home and the middle-class women who are working because now they begin to see the discrimination. ...working because now they begin to see the discrimination, now when someone says, "We are just not going to promote you, because you are a woman, now they, at least, begin to see it. It is also the time of the civil rights movement and for the first time, I think, people ... Many people understand what has been going on with race. They do not understand everything but they begin to see it somewhat differently, and you hear stories of, "They do not even hire Negroes" or, "I applied for a job and they said we do not hire colored folk." It does not take too much of a leap, if you are in the workforce, "Yeah, they told me I was a woman and they would not hire me." There is a connection here somewhere. Just like you had abolition as an entry into suffrage for many women, the civil rights movement does this for a lot of women, as they begin to say, "What is going on? Wait, there is a connection here." SM (00:32:55): Yeah, because the... From all the readings that I have done and people that I have spoken to in the interview process is that the sexism that was rampant, not only in society but also within the movement, the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement. BS (00:33:10): And the civil rights movement. You have a lot of women [inaudible]. SM (00:33:13): Yeah. Even gay and lesbian movement, they told me that that is rampant. BS (00:33:18): Yeah. Yeah. The civil rights movement is the only one that is going on at that point, and it does push... There are a number of things that push the civil rights movement, and one of these young women who were [inaudible] women's movement, the women's movements, there is one group of these people who are very active participants in anti-Vietnam demonstrations and in terms of civil rights activism. That is one group. The other group is the dissatisfied people from Betty Friedan, reading Betty Friedan's book. SM (00:33:54): Right. [inaudible]. BS (00:33:56): That is another group. There is another whole group of people who are maybe professionals and/or working, not always professionals but they are seeing discrimination on the job and that is another group, and then there is a group of lawyers, very small, we are talking under 100 people, including later, Ruth Bader Ginsburg later, because she becomes a justice, I [inaudible] justice, she was there at the beginning, figuring out what cases to bring to the Supreme Court and change the laws. People who were interested in the laws and changing them are not quite the same people who were active in the civil rights movement. Now they may have been sympathetic, many of them were very sympathetic, but the activists who were down in the south, those are the younger women and some of them go back to law school, some of those women who started [inaudible], they go back to law school and they understand something about women's issues, and they are looking at things in these laws, and they are working on that. They are not always successful but they are working on it. Plus, there are some more members in the Congress, not a lot of women in the Congress but enough who will pass a law, who will push on a law to get a law changed or enacted, and that begins to make a difference. In the (19)70s, what you have is you have a bunch... You get the beginnings of some good Supreme Court decisions, some are not so good, but you begin to get more cases coming up in the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court does not have any theory... I mean, there is so few cases on women in the history that... I do not know the new laws but, first, you get 1963, the Equal Pay Act, which does not apply to administrators, executives or professionals. This is the first civil rights employment act, and it is only for equal pay. That is (19)63. (19)64 comes a great big Civil Rights Act happens and what happens? It is all for Blacks, except for the employment section, which says race, color, national origin, and religion. Okay? That is how the bill is introduced. Okay? The National Women's Party, which you may never have heard of [inaudible]. Okay. The National... This is the Equal Rights Amendment. The National Women's Rights Party comes right out of the women's party, National Women's Party. Their offices are here in Washington and they have an old pre-Civil War mansion [inaudible]. SM (00:36:30): Oh, wow. BS (00:36:30): Yeah. But Alice Paul, who heads that up, has been going to the Congress every year since 1923, and saying here is the equal rights amendment and would you introduce it? She never gets anybody to introduce it but she does get people who sponsor it. She sees VII of the Civil Rights Act, which says no discrimination on employment based on race, color, religion, national origin, and she sends a letter to every member of the Congress and, remember, this is before Xeroxes. You are talking 1963 probably, maybe (19)64. She sends saying, "White women and Christian women", and there is a little bit of racism here too, "Are not going to get hired. They do not have anyone to protect them." She says it better than I am saying it but, essentially, she is saying everybody is going to be protected in this bill except white women. Well, some of the women who were in the Congress, like Representative Martha Griffiths from Michigan, she realizes that what the National Women's Party is saying is absolutely right and she picks up on it, and she does. There is this thing where she says if an employment situation is all-white and a white woman wants to apply, they do not have to hire her, because she is not protected on the basis of race, color, religion, or national origin. But if an African American, I think she used the word Negro, at that point, we were still using [inaudible], "But if a Negro woman comes, she is protected. They cannot discriminate against her if she applies." But Howard Smith, senator from Virginia, who is shepherding this and doing stuff with the civil rights bill, he realized that... Are we okay? SM (00:38:14): Yeah. We are doing fine. BS (00:38:15): Okay. He realizes if he adds sex to this bill, nobody is going to vote for it, because, I mean, it is so silly to have something that is going to protect women in employment, that a lot of people will just say, "Ha-ha, we cannot have that happen" kind of thing, and so he, theoretically, he is the one who added sex and he admitted to Martha Griffiths, she says he told her years later that he put it in as a joke, because some people said maybe he really cared about women, because he always sponsored the Equal Rights Amendment. You have women in the Congress and you get sex discrimination into the employment bill, it exempts teachers, it exempts women faculty, and it exempts women students in the whole bill. It will only cover women, it will only cover in employment and teachers are not covered, anyone involved in education is not covered by VII of the civil rights act until much later. But this is the first major bill, you have two, Equal Rights Amendment and [inaudible]... Am I telling you more than you want to know? SM (00:39:29): Actually, no. This is good, because these are things that are happening when boomers are growing up, and so we are dealing with a lot of parents of the boomers, who you have been talking about, and the boomers... BS (00:39:41): Yeah. My kids knew what was going on. Yeah. SM (00:39:43): The boomers in the (19)50s, obviously, were seeing things either consciously or subconsciously between... BS (00:39:48): They are hearing things. SM (00:39:49): ...between father and mother over a lot of issues, whether it be to go to work or childcare or all the other things that... Not everybody stayed at home. A lot of perceptions are that they did. A lot of them did not. I knew neighbors who were librarians, teachers. BS (00:40:07): Yes. Middle class white women were beginning to work. SM (00:40:09): Secretaries at banks and things like that but a lot of them were living at home. BS (00:40:15): Yeah. A lot of them were living at home and a lot of people who went to work would justify it as I need to save money for my kids or I have a sick kid, so I have to work, or whatever. They had a reason. There were few that said, "I just would love being at work" because you are not supposed to like it that much. Some did say it. At any rate, in the (19)60s, you begin to get legislation and this one is important, because employment is important and the government does not do very much about it but people from inside the government and people outside the government are putting pressure on the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to do what the law says that it should do is to look at sex discrimination as well as the other kinds. A good friend of mine, Sonia Fuentes, Sonia Pressman Fuentes, worked inside the commission. She was there I think their first- or second-woman attorney, and she presses very hard, and eventually, they do have to look at sex discrimination. They are getting a lot of complaints from women on sex discrimination. The other thing that is happened as a result of the Kennedy Commission, which Kennedy agrees to because Mrs. Roosevelt came and asked him to, that was the strategy, we knew no one... Everyone knew, people involved on that, I was not, they knew that he could say know to Eleanor Roosevelt, so he says yes to this commission in 1960. The [inaudible] is not until (19)63. You know things are bubbling somewhere. SM (00:41:46): That important meeting they had at Hyde Park in the home there... She brought that up at the meeting to support him I believe for the run of the presidency. BS (00:41:58): Yes. She was a strong supporter of him, and so he owed her something politically. SM (00:42:02): Yeah, because she was against him, originally, she was a Stephenson person, and she did not like his dad. She could not stand his father. BS (00:42:08): Right. Well, yes, his father was [inaudible] but she was also a person [inaudible] that point. I mean, she was so loved and respected by so many people, and he could not have said no to her. She was the widow but she had on her own, she had her own credentials, and so forth. SM (00:42:27): Oh, yes. BS (00:42:27): He says yes to this commission, which begins to document some of the inequities. Nobody has ever documented them. Suffrage people have but they did that before 1920, and they stopped documenting and whatnot but the commission has staff and it has people who begin to get quite interested in women's issues, and Kennedy had some interest in it, because he put five cabinet members on this commission, including his brother Bobby. I mean, I suspect the women pressed for that. SM (00:42:59): When you look at the... [inaudible] any particular issue that when you look at the presidents that have been... The boomers are now reaching the age of 64 and the youngest is 49. BS (00:43:09): Yeah. My kids are boomers. SM (00:43:12): There is no spring chickens anymore in the boomer generation. BS (00:43:14): That is right. They are all middle aged and up. SM (00:43:17): Thing is the presidents started with Truman and they go to Obama and of all... You have talked about the commission here. I know the experience with President Ford and Carter that you had... BS (00:43:28): That is right. There was a Women's Educational Equity Act, which the government agrees to spend some money on women's educational issues, and they even setup an advisory committee, a council, and I was on that advisory [inaudible]. SM (00:43:40): You were also something to do with LBJ, because you were on the very first... You were appointed for some position in the first... I have it here someplace. BS (00:43:53): Lyndon Johnson, I think. SM (00:43:53): You were the first person appointed as a staff member to a Congressional committee to work on women's issues. BS (00:43:59): That is true. That is different. SM (00:44:00): And that was something linked to Johnson's ... He had given some sort of directive. BS (00:44:04): No. No. This is before ... No. No. This had nothing to do with Johnson. What happens and you looked at my stuff, so you have probably seen how I got involved in Title IX, after my experiences at Maryland, I find out that there is no law for prohibiting sex discrimination against women in education. SM (00:44:26): Wow. BS (00:44:27): I figure, well, I believe in bibliotherapy, now I am [inaudible] and books most of the time, but I think I will read up on what African Americans did in the civil rights movements and maybe there will be something there that women could do. I was not even thinking of myself at this point, being involved, but I was just curious and I knew there was a problem and I am basically a problem solver in some ways or try to be. I ended up filing charges against all these universities, charges of sex discrimination, and it is an executive order, so it is an administrative charge, you do not need to be a lawyer, and I had some very good help from inside the office of Federal Contracting Clients, a guy named Vincent Macaluso, told me what to do. I had no idea what to do, and he told me... He wrote the first complaint. Yeah. I mean, he really was one of these insiders, and there are a lot of people like that. Those of us on the outside, what did we know? I mean, they told us what we should do a lot of the time. [inaudible] worked behind the scenes with us but I belonged to the Women's Equity Action League, which was setup, because Elizabeth Boy, in Ohio, an attorney, who was a NOW member, was very worried that NOW is going to look too radical for middle class people. She was really worried about that, she cares about women's issues desperately, and here they were talking about abortion, which was not a household word at those times. I mean, there was a time before this issue became that women would whisper the word. I mean, if you would talk, "Did you hear that someone had an abortion?" There was nobody in the room but you would be whispering as if there were. I mean, you could not use that word aloud. You could not say rape without... I mean, rape was as bad a word as fuck. You just did not say those words aloud. It was a totally different time, and the women's issues ... I think this is what makes it different for the boomers, they have a whole bunch of words for things that their mothers could not have talked about at one point, like the word sex discrimination or abortion or... I remember once, my cousin had an abortion and my mother did not know I was in the house and she was talking to my aunt about it, how it went, and whatnot, and she did not realize I was there and she was so upset that I knew. I was I think a college graduate by that point, but it was like a secret, a dirty secret. The boomers have all these words or they learn them while they were growing up, some of them, they learn them while they were growing up but they were not as strange as they were to some of us as we got involved. You do have... What begins to happen in the (19)60s, this awareness in the political sense to these are growing, not only for Women's Educational Equity Act, which is a grant program essentially, go through the Congress fairly easily, the Equal Rights Amendment is reintroduced. Senator Birch Bayh, who was chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, is holding a hearing on the subcommittee for constitutional amendments. There is a woman named Wilma Scott Heide, who is president of NOW, and a former nurse and a sociologist, or whatever, she jumps up in the middle of the hearing, now, this is, again, the Vietnam War, people are doing all kinds of crazy things. She is at a Congressional hearing and she says, "When are you going to hold a hearing on the Equal Rights Amendment, Senator?" Or words to that effect. SM (00:47:50): Right. BS (00:47:51): He says, yes, he will hold a hearing. There has never been a hearing on this Congressional amendment, which had been introduced many, many [inaudible]. SM (00:47:59): Why did it fail? I know a lot of people put a lot of the credit on Phyllis Schlafly, because she worked so hard to defeat it herself. BS (00:48:07): She did. She did, but we suspect she had some help and some money. One theory is that the insurance companies were piling money on. We do not know if this is true or not. It is a theory because they had gender life insurance policies, gender health insurance policies, which are now cannot do that anymore but were in existence as of a few weeks ago, so if you had employment and you had mostly women in your establishment, you paid a higher amount than if you had mostly men. If you got your insurance independently, because you are a professional solo practitioner and you do not have from anyplace else, you paid more if you were a woman than if you were a man. The Equal Rights Amendment is now coming up and it comes up in... It passes in the Senate and we lose at the state level, and I do not know if people would agree with me but this is what I would say, because many of us in the women's movements, many of us were inexperienced politically. I am one of them. Did not know a thing about politics before I got involved. I had been a challenger for one election, which meant I just checked the records behind the table. Period. I read, I gave money to the NCAAP but that was the extent of my political participation. I believed in a bunch of things and I voted but did I know anything political? Not in the slightest kind of thing. We had been so successful in getting things through the Congress that we thought it would be the same thing. We were not organized at the state levels, and we just... We did not have the capability at the state level that we had at the federal level. At the federal level, you had already coalitions of various women's groups, you were working with various Black groups. It was too early for the Hispanics. They were not organized yet, but the African Americans and the women's groups are working together. They realize they have some commonalities in their learning from each other. At the state level, we did not have any organization to speak of. There is the beginning of the state commissions on women... [inaudible] Equal Rights Amendment passed in (19)72, (19)73? SM (00:50:42): I know, I was... My boss was involved in it. I do not know if you ever knew Betty Menson, Elizabeth Menson. BS (00:50:46): No. SM (00:50:48): She was at Ohio University. She was a suffragist. She was my first boss. She was really involved in Ohio, and I remember next door, I am the assistant director of student affairs, she is the director, I remember the vote coming in from Columbus. BS (00:51:01): [inaudible]. SM (00:51:05): It did not pass in Columbus, and she was... BS (00:51:06): Heartsick. SM (00:51:07): I think she cried. She had to go to the ladies room. BS (00:51:12): Yeah. SM (00:51:12): She had put two years of her life into it. BS (00:51:15): Yeah. Yeah. People worked hard. There was no question about it but we did not have I think enough organizational structure, probably because we were new and we did not have the bodies or the money. I mean, to have 50 states well-organized requires something [inaudible]. SM (00:51:33): I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and, of course, David Horowitz. BS (00:51:36): Oh, did you? SM (00:51:36): David Horowitz said the same thing, and that is that the women... Well, the universities are now run by the radicals of the (19)60s and they run all the programs, which is [inaudible] women's studies, gay studies, Asian studies, and Black studies, environmental studies, Latino studies, Native American studies, they are all the radicals from the (19)60s who are now running all those programs in the universities, and David Horowitz is adamant about it. [inaudible] talking about it again. Your thoughts on that? BS (00:52:20): Well, we do not quite follow the medieval curriculum with which we started, and that knowledge expands. We did not talk much about climate. It does not matter what side of the climate thing you are in, in what I am going to say, because we did not talk about climate. It was not the issue. 50 years ago, this was not an academic area worth looking at or maybe 100 years ago. I do not know how far. I do not know enough about that issue. It is the one that becomes more important, and now is an issue. It is an issue at whatever side you are on. Something is going on in our climate, we do not know why, we worry about getting rid of oil. We will not find enough oil and there is a finite amount and so forth, so it is an issue we have to study. The environment is an issue. Women's studies, we have looked at history and we have found there are a lot of things about women, which were not taught at all. It is a scholarly area like anything else. It is not political. It is very scholarly. It is very boring sometimes, because it is so scholarly but there are... It is now you look at a book, take literary criticism, I was thinking it was this just this morning, because I was thinking of Kate Millett's book, which talks about... SM (00:53:43): Sexual Politics? BS (00:53:44): Sexual Politics. She talks about Norman Mailer, she talks about Milton and there is a third author and I cannot remember who it is. I would have to pull the book off the shelf. This occurred to me this morning is I hated Norman Mailer's book. I could see it was a good book, but I hated it. SM (00:53:59): Which one? BS (00:54:00): The Naked and the Dead, his first one. I can see this guy is writing stuff that, whatever, Milton, I hated Milton but I did not know why either. Okay? I hated Milton but I could see this man is a beautiful writer, so there must be something wrong with me. Everybody says this is a terrific book and I do not like it and the same with Milton, this is revered poet... Okay. I have no idea. I really think I do not have good literary taste and I read Kate Millett's book and she points out Mailer is a tremendous sexist. He is. He hates women. His subsequent life in terms of he has beaten women occasionally and so forth and so on, confirms that and that is why I did not like the book but I had no word for it. Milton is terribly anti-female. He does not like women. If you go back and read Milton, you would see it but they never mentioned this in school. Now if you read Milton, they mention that he has an anti-female [inaudible]. SM (00:55:02): How about the Beat writers because the Beat writers, the Kerouac, Ginsberg, Anne Waldman, Gary Snyder, Furlan Getty, the list goes on and on. BS (00:55:17): I do not know enough about them. SM (00:55:18): Were they more... Were they sexist? BS (00:55:18): I do not know enough about them to comment. SM (00:55:19): I know they did [inaudible]. BS (00:55:21): Some of them were. Some of them were. SM (00:55:21): Right. BS (00:55:24): Some of them were but I am responding to your question earlier in terms of university. If you were looking at Milton, you look at Milton differently. The same is true... I am teaching this class and I looked at colonial women and what they were doing during the war. I mean, the first Declaration of Independence was printed by a woman. Why? Because the men are at war, so the women are taking over... They were working on whatever the husband's business was. They were doing all kinds of things during the war. There are women who are helping to shape the thoughts of the men who write the Constitution. These are brilliant women whose fathers probably taught them what they needed to know, and they were... Like Mercy Warren is writing Ben Franklin and whatever, I am not sure if it was Ben Franklin but men like that and then discussing the ideas that end up in the Constitution. I do not remember learning anything about that at all. You have a new lens to look at things. We have never... In history, the only immigrant thing I ever remember is that there are a lot of Jews coming over around the turn of the century and there were Irish where they said no Irish or dogs allowed. That was the extent that we knew of immigrant populations. Now you think of immigration now and how it was taught, that is how it was taught before. Immigration is a huge problem. No matter where you are on which side. SM (00:56:58): I just got back from Harpers Ferry two weekends ago, [inaudible] place to go and John Brown and they were talking about... I remember we went on a tour and in the tour of the town, African Americans were held in much higher esteem than the Irish. BS (00:57:15): Probably. Yeah. The Irish were held in very low esteem. See, but you need to study that and that is why we have these groups. Native American, what did we learn about that as a child? They were brave people who rode horses and murdered other people. SM (00:57:32): Scalped people. BS (00:57:33): Yeah. I mean, they did terrible things and that is about all. If you look at Indian culture, the British when they began negotiating with the Indians, this is well before the revolution, are surprised because the men come with their women. They have women leaders. The British cannot understand why they have to negotiate with women and men. I mean, that is fantastic. When you think of that, what does this mean? This is why you have women's studies, because women's studies as well as Native American studies, had a different way of looking at women and, historically, this is of great important. What does this tell us? Phyllis Schlafly? SM (00:58:14): Yeah. I think the period from 1980 on, of course, Reagan was the era of backlash, many people believe. BS (00:58:22): Yeah. SM (00:58:22): Of the (19)80s and then you have got Bill Clinton in the (19)90s and then you have got George Bush the second, and now Obama, so the last 30 years, boomers have gone from the thirties to the (19)60s now in terms of age, and where are boomer women? Overall, I should question you later on [inaudible] but when you look at boomer women, we are talking about a generation of 74 million boomers. BS (00:58:56): That is a lot of people. SM (00:58:58): Of which probably over half are female, what is your opinion of that generation? Have you seen a lot of boomer women going off and doing what you were doing? Some of these leaders were from another generation, and so where are... Maybe Susan Brownmiller, she is actually a little bit older... BS (00:59:23): She is a little older too. SM (00:59:23): Yeah. What are your thoughts on the boomer women? In terms of they were involved in the movements, there is no question about that. BS (00:59:31): As young women. SM (00:59:32): Yeah. As young women. BS (00:59:40): Some of them were not. I am thinking how to phrase this. I am thinking of college women and what I hear is in the here and now and there is not much support for women's issues. But that was also true in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. There was not that much support. It was a time of activism, so there were some of the active women, the people who were active and got active on women's issues, but we did not have most of the college population. We did not have them on the women's issues. We had some people on it and some nice people are sympathetic and they do not do anything about it until you can move them and, certainly, a sexual harassment and sexual assault became an issue, people got involved in that but even then, we did not have half the college population. You might be able to rally them on one particular issue, a professor is very sexist, says terrible things in class, so you may be able to get some people to do something but they are not that active. SM (01:00:43): I came up with this theory and I have been mentioning it with probably the last 40 people that I have interviewed and most... Well, there are three adjectives that truly describe the boomer generation, male, female, Black, white, gay, straight, whatever, the whole group is that this generation grew up in the late (19)40s and (19)50s and the frontrunners, the generation itself was a very quiet generation in the early years, they were a very fearful generation and they feared a lot, because they say the McCarthy hearings as the young kids, and the concept was that if you speak up, you pay a serious price for speaking up. Of course, we had the Cold War too, and then they were very naïve. Most kids are naïve to begin with. BS (01:01:30): Yes. Yes. SM (01:01:32): They were naïve, and I think television did not help any, because you saw very few African Americans on TV except for Amos and Andy in the early (19)50s, which was slapstick. You saw Nat King Cole in the middle (19)50s and he was out for six weeks and his show was canceled. BS (01:01:50): And very few women... I mean, you have women who were silly like ... What was the one who was married to the musician? The one who is very funny. Lucy. SM (01:02:00): Yeah. BS (01:02:00): Lucy. SM (01:02:05): We had I Love Lucy but then you had the Eve Arden Show, you had Our Miss Brooks, you had Gracie Allen, you had Ozzie and Harriet. You had [inaudible]. BS (01:02:18): ...of the silly white... SM (01:02:20): Father Knows Best. BS (01:02:22): Yeah. SM (01:02:22): Donna Reed Show. BS (01:02:26): Yeah. These are all the stereotypes. SM (01:02:26): Leave It To Beaver. BS (01:02:26): These are all the stereotypes of women at home, and not being very smart. SM (01:02:29): There was Mama, the early (19)50s, Mama and that show and there were a couple other ones too but Gale Storm and I forget her show... Remember Gale Storm? BS (01:02:42): [inaudible]. SM (01:02:45): Yeah. BS (01:02:46): My own daughters saw... One was born in 1954 and one in 1956 and what is different for them from my generation is they make choices about marriage and children, so that when they were in their early thirties, they both informed me... Well, one of them informs me that I will probably never get married and even if I did, I would never have a child, and the other one at that point did not seem to have prospects for marriage and says she might have a baby without marriage. Now I do not know how many people have that point of view. I want to tell you they have goth changed their minds. Both are married and one has got one child and one has two children. But it was a choice. This would not have been possible in their mother's generation. Almost everybody felt they had to get married. The big tragedy of your life would be maybe nobody will want to marry me, which seems like it was more matter of luck than what you did or if you were born beautiful, you did not have to worry as much or whatever, and you could read books and articles on how to ensnare men, a lot of things like that, and they would sometimes even use that word but there was not a choice, and nor could I have said I do not want to have... BS (01:04:03): ...but there was not the choice, nor could I have said I do not want to have any children. I could have said I want two because most people, middle class people, knew about birth control by this time, so you can limit your family and that is acceptable to limit your family. But these women are marrying later than their mothers. In the (19)50s, the birth rate, people married earlier than they have ever married in their life. They were marrying at around 20, which on average- SM (01:04:30): My mom was 19. BS (01:04:31): Yeah. They were married- SM (01:04:33): She finished two years of college at 19. BS (01:04:38): Right. They were marrying earlier. Comes to the boomer generation, they were thinking, well, I do not know if I want to get married. This is revolutionary because throughout history, the only way a woman could really survive is to be married to someone who is going to provide some things for her. Now, she still has to work for it, whether it is killing the pig years and years ago or- SM (01:04:58): Did you hear this? And I heard this a lot, particularly in the (19)70s, late (19)70s, that boomer couples that were married said "Oh, I do not want to have kids. Maybe we will never have kids because I do not want to bring them into this world that is so dangerous that they may not live to adulthood." BS (01:05:17): Some of them say that, but some of them say "I just do not want kids. It is a lot of work. I do not want to do it." I think that is new. I remember being stunned at what my kids were saying and stunned that they had even thought of this. And after a while I realized what was important is I have a happy life and you can have a happy life single and an unhappy life single, and a happy life married and an unhappy life married, so I got very used to the idea of what they were saying. But they were able to make a choice, and I think for a lot of young women, marriage became a choice. Now it is still is. Women do want to get married, the majority of them apparently, but still, it is felt more like a choice. It is not like you absolutely have to get married. I mean, people will say bad things about you. SM (01:06:11): Some of the students at Westchester University, some of them have not gotten married. They go on and become doctors and lawyers and very top professionals. They just said they just cannot find the right guy. They just cannot find the right guy. BS (01:06:22): Well, and they probably cannot. Their standards are different. They are not looking for an economic handout. There are other things that count, and I think the standards have gotten higher for marriages. SM (01:06:33): Would you say that one of the lessons of the boomer generation for both men and women of all colors, religions, sexual orientation, and certainly even political background, is that nothing happens in a positive way without a battle? BS (01:06:52): Without a what? SM (01:06:52): Without a battle. You have to fight for things. You have to fight for equality in higher education. Equality comes when others demand it via protest or laws being passed. Is that what some of the (19)60s was about, civil rights? BS (01:07:07): For some people, but most young people were not involved in civil rights. Most young people were not involved in women's issues. SM (01:07:13): Well, 10 percent of the boomers, they are saying anywhere between 5 and 15 percent, probably it was more around eight or 9 percent were involved in activism. One out of 10. Yeah. BS (01:07:27): Okay, so one out of 10. And then there is probably another two or three out of 10 who are vaguely supportive to some degree, but not doing anything. And probably that is true for most movements. I do not think these movements were that different. One of my classes consists [inaudible] talk about suffrage, and so I really read a lot about suffrage. And it seems like all kinds of things are happening. I mean, there is hundreds of campaigns, statewide, nationwide and whatnot, but I still say, well, how many women, what was the percentage of women that were really involved? And I doubt if it was very high. SM (01:08:07): And the media likes to go for the sensational. And so they will go to Woodstock and they will show the nude women or men in the water and the mud. And every person I have talked to and who were there said they just sat with their blanket- BS (01:08:27): Oh really? SM (01:08:27): ...And watched it, but they were taking drugs. That was definitely a key. But they were not sliding in mud and around walking around nude. BS (01:08:36): I think where the big changes come is that, one, you have increased sexuality, and that women are making choices about their lives. And the relationships between men and women are changing, some ways for the better, some ways I am not so sure, I do not know. But certainly the relationships begin to change. SM (01:09:01): You are very important in so many different areas. And I think you have talked about campus climate as a term you kind of were instrumental in bringing into the thinking of higher education many years back. Please define in your own way the definition of a campus climate means, and what were the campus climates? And I am really concentrating on women here, because you have already talked about the (19)50s, but I am talking about being a female student in the (19)50s. All I can remember is that Cortland State is panty raids. That is all I remember, and I was a little boy, but I heard about panty raids. BS (01:09:46): That is right. SM (01:09:47): And sitting in washing machines or goldfish or whatever, it was ridiculous. But what was the campus climate for women in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, (19)90s and today? BS (01:09:59): There are two definitions of the climate. One is the overall sense of the campus, the feelings and behaviors that go around concerning women and men and women and men's relationships and women's relationships to having a career and whatnot, and I think that is what you are asking me. SM (01:10:19): Yes. BS (01:10:20): The other definition is specific behaviors, subtle unnoticed behaviors, ways in which women are treated differently and not only by men, but by women too. Women get less eye contact. People pay less attention when women are talking. They are writing on a piece of paper, looking out the window, giving men full attention. Women are less often to be called by name. Women get less feedback, they get less praise, they get less criticism. They do hear sexist remarks. Men hear much less of that. I have a list somewhere of about 50 different behaviors, ways in which women are treated differently, and that is the very specific behaviors which are typically unnoticed. SM (01:11:06): [inaudible] BS (01:11:10): But you are talking about the atmosphere. SM (01:11:12): What is interesting to me, and I am interviewing Dr. Cohen who wrote a book on Mario Savio when I got back in California, and free speech movement was one of my areas. And I think it is important, but people try to lessen its importance by saying it was a (19)64 and (19)65 and the anti-war movement was really (19)66, (19)67, (19)68, so they tried to lessen the in impact. But the free speech movement was very important, and women, to me, were really equal in it. Because if you look at the free speech movement and Mario Savio, [inaudible] Bettina Aptheker, you had Mario Savio's future wife, [inaudible] Goldberg, and the one that was a state rep. Very powerful women, very powerful men, and it was about ideas and the fact that the university is supposed to be about ideas. It is not supposed to be about the corporate takeover of a university. And to me that means an awful lot, and women were really involved in the (19)60s in this, at least they were at Berkeley. And I know they were at my campus my undergraduate years and at Ohio State too. I guess what I am asking here is how important was the free speech movement with respect to its impact on the women's movement? BS (01:12:36): I have never heard anybody raise that question before, which makes me think it probably did not have much of an impact because it did not contribute to the ideology. Women were talking about having equal rights with men, and to the extent that men had the right to free speech, women should have a right to free speech. Free speech comes up a little bit when women, maybe more than a little bit, when women are beginning to protest on campuses. There is a lot of activity going on, partly because these are professional women. They have gone away from the stereotype of women, unlike teachers in K through 12. So you have women who have really fled the stereotype. They have gone in a different direction. They are highly trained and they have also seen a lot of discrimination. And they suspect they are being paid less, and they are right, and they suspect a lot of things going on. So they become involved in terms of how do you make change? And you get women asking for commissions on the status of women on various campuses. It would not surprise me, and I am guessing, if half or more of the colleges had some commissions. If they did not have commissions, a committee, either commission or a committee. But if they did not have either of them, there was still pockets of activity so that women would rally around a particular thing. And women were questioning the relationships between men and women and employment and body issues like abortion and sexual harassment and stuff, and these things come up. Now, I put out a newsletter from (19)70 till about 1995 and watched anything that had to do with women's issues on campus. And my sources were, one, a lot of people called me for information or would tell me something, but as a college association where I worked, we got materials from colleges all over the country, so we saw a lot of college newspapers and newsletters and things like that, and we also read women's publications to also pick up information. That whole set of things, which ranged from (19)70 to I think (19)95, we ended up with the last one, cover issues that were important to women that somehow made it into something official, before the web, this starts. And I do not remember any discussion anywhere about the free speech. Now, I am not at the radical edge. I am with those of us looking [inaudible] and we would like men to act a little better and believe in equality of the relationship and stuff, but I am not way over here where people are talking about overturning things and- SM (01:15:35): Yeah. Well Carol Haney, [inaudible] said that the problem with the women's movement is that the women's movement denied radical feminists a place at the table. And she was very strong on that. BS (01:15:47): Hard to deny. SM (01:15:48): And actually, she is the one responsible for the word "The personal is political" because she wrote the essay. BS (01:15:58): Oh, she was the one. SM (01:16:00): She was the one. BS (01:16:00): Oh, [inaudible] SM (01:16:00): So she was talking about that too, although she did not feel comfortable with being interviewed, I could tell. But I asked, a couple people persuaded her to be interviewed by me, so it was a pretty good interview. In terms of... This is your interview, but I believe that the free speech movement has some uniqueness to it because there were strong women in that event, but if you look at the Columbia protest at Mark Rudd’s book, it was a very male-dominated protest at Columbia. BS (01:16:34): Yeah, because men and women work together, and you see still today, the men tend to take over and the women become quieter. I mean, people say women do not talk, women do not speak out in meetings. SM (01:16:47): Well, Mario was the voice. BS (01:16:48): No, but women are supposed to talk a lot, but if you put men and women together, they do not talk a lot. They do not talk as much as men in many groups. If you go to a dinner party, I am always fascinated, the men are quite often talking, doing the talking. The women occasionally add something, but the men are doing more of the talking, and this is what happens in these other movements. Now you do get some strong people and that is good, but some of them drop out because they are not being listened to. I do not see its importance, at least in terms of the campus, that there may have been here are some people who are active for work on free speech issues, and here are some who are working on women's issues. And maybe on a particular campus, maybe they work together for something. SM (01:17:36): I know that Ronald Regan despised them, and his coming to power was based on two things: fighting the students, making sure there is law and order on university campuses, which he did through the free speech movement and also People's Park in (19)69. I interviewed at [inaudible]. He was in charge of the People's Park thing. Then he could not stand the welfare statement and he was going to fight that anyway he could. Just your comments here on these. I thought Sputnik was very important in (19)57 because when you talk about the issue of women not having access or being involved in math, science and technology, and then you have Sputnik in 1957 where the country demands that we get our act together education-wise with respect to the Russians. That to me could have... I put a negative down here for women because women probably did not become top scientist at that time. BS (01:18:45): No, it was very hard to become a top scientist. There were schools where you could not take a course in chemistry if you were a female, or if you were allowed to take the course, you could not major in chemistry. Or if they had a home etc. part department, women took chemistry and home etc., but not in the real departments. This is men's work and it still is a lot of that. There are not many women astrophysicists. And there are people like Summers, former president of Harvard. SM (01:19:15): Yeah, Larry Summers. BS (01:19:17): Yeah. He believes women just naturally are not that good at science. SM (01:19:21): That got him in trouble at Harvard. He had to leave really, because- BS (01:19:25): Of course he had to leave, and that was partly because of that. I mean, he was an arrogant person, so it was not- SM (01:19:30): [inaudible] even made comments on him, a former president. BS (01:19:33): Yeah, but Summers left, and also, he did not get the cabinet post he wanted. He wanted to be Secretary of Treasury and he did not get it because the women's groups would have exploded. SM (01:19:46): He is back at Harvard though. BS (01:19:48): Yeah. Well, he is back at Harvard without his presidency. SM (01:19:51): He is a professor. BS (01:19:51): But I think it is instructive. I mean, here is a man who is obviously well-educated, obviously has met lots of talented women, and yet still believes that they are naturally not as interested in science and all the other stuff. SM (01:20:06): And he is a boomer. BS (01:20:08): That is right. SM (01:20:08): He is a boomer. BS (01:20:09): He is a boomer. So not everybody has taken on these beliefs. There is still substantial number of people and a lot of conservative women. I mean, the conservative women talk about the family. SM (01:20:22): I think a lot of people around universities today are afraid of the return of activism on college campuses, and many of them are the boomers that probably did not like the activism when they were there. Some of these other ones here. McCarthy seemed to have been very big negative because of fear, and so forth. But the real positive people for, and I just listed these, [inaudible] Freedom Summer, students going to [inaudible] and voter registration drives, Rosa Parks, people like Margaret Mead, Rachel Carson- BS (01:20:59): Margaret Mead was mixed [inaudible] SM (01:21:02): She was what? BS (01:21:06): I think she had mixed views on women and with the women's movement, but I am not an expert on Margaret Mead. SM (01:21:09): I think we have already had that question. I am getting here... One of the biggest developments in the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s was the rise of colleges and universities and community colleges. Numbers rose in attendance. The importance of higher learning was growing leaps and bounds, and boomer parents and boomer kids took advantage. Universities had no gender equality until- BS (01:21:35): 1972. SM (01:21:36): 1972 was passed for schools receiving federal funds. Why did it take that long, if they knew in the early (19)60s the importance of education for their youth, to get ahead in this world? BS (01:21:52): It is important, and women need to... There is still a lot then. They need to be good parents, so you have to teach them how to be good parents, so it is good for them to have an education. There are a lot of people who believe that is what you need to do for women. But there is also a lot of sexism. Some of it is historic, but it is in the culture. Women do not need an education. You get people like Elizabeth Dole, and I have heard this from numerous women lawyers who got into Harvard or Yale who had very small numbers. They are not taking 20 women, they are taking two or six or 12. I have never heard of a quota as high as 20. It has always been single or teens. But she and other women are told by other men "You are taking a job away from a guy. Why are you here? You are keeping a guy from becoming a lawyer." And they say this, I mean, they say it aloud to the women, and I have heard that story at least six or seven times. SM (01:22:52): That is the thing, is to say after the Civil War, African Americans when they moved north, you were taking jobs- BS (01:22:56): "They are taking jobs away from white..." Exactly. SM (01:22:58): And we knew there was prejudice in the north too. BS (01:23:02): Exactly. But the prejudice... Not the prejudice. It is bad behaviors continue. It is not just attitudes, but the behaviors. Because men are more worthwhile, they need the jobs more. I mean, this is their beliefs. Men are all going to be working, and some of these women are going to get married and quit to raise their children, as well they should, I am sure some people said. It also happens that nobody's keeping records. Nobody is looking or examining the status of women on campus or almost any other place. You have the women's bureau in the government which keep some data, but usually they compare some women with other women, not always comparing women to men. And you have from after the commission, which ends in (19)63 of (19)64 after Kennedy died, he was assassinated, and the commission gives its report. And then spans, you get some commissions at the state level, and you have a citizen's advisory council on the rights and responsibilities of women with a staff of one or two people, one professional, I think, and one secretary maybe, but that is all the government is doing. So nobody knows what is going on. When the American Council on Education, which is the big elephants in the room of- SM (01:24:23): ACE. BS (01:24:26): ACE, they are the one that all the presidents belong to. This is the lobbying group. This is the one that controls, makes pronouncements, does research, but it is big. It is powerful. Some of the others are also powerful, but not like ACE. I am on this committee, this is before I was on the committee staff, but I am helping put the hearings together for Title IX. And when you put hearings together, you invite people to come testify who can be on either side because you want it to be a good bill. And if you have people from either side, they will find what is wrong from their point of view, and you can decide whether you want to change the bill or not. I mean, that is the part of the real purpose of hearings, not to mention they will support the bill or whatever. And so they call the American Council on Education lobbyists and they say "Hey, we have this bill that is going to prohibit sex discrimination. Are you interested in testifying?" And he said, "Of course not". He said... and this is again almost a quote. He said "There is no sex discrimination against women. And besides, it is not a problem. I do not see it as discrimination. It all makes sense. It is rational. We wanted to give a woman a degree in graduate school if she is going to quit when she gets married." If you believe that, that is not discrimination. That makes rational sense. And a lot of what is happening makes rational sense. I mean, why should the University of Michigan, who would have $2.3 million budget in the early (19)70s, annual budget for its varsity sports team, why should it pay anything for women's sports? They are not interested. They just do not care, so the women sell apples at football games. Everybody knows this. It is public. It is not hidden. Everybody knows they are selling apples to pay for their uniforms and their equipment and transportation. Not everybody knows that their coaches are volunteers and do not get paid like the male coaches. That is more hidden. But there is a lot of visible stuff like this, and it all has a reason. "Well, football is more important than the other stuff", we hear this today too, but everything seems to be rational. "We do not want too many women in graduate school. They are taking jobs from guys". If you ask people what was going on, then they would have a reason, and therefore they did not see it as discrimination. And until the women's movement begins, and this is an early late (19)60s, like (19)68, (19)69, you have no studies on the status of women in higher education. Literally no one has any idea what is going on. I had no idea what is going on. I did not think Title IX was that important because I did not know how bad things were. And Chicago sets up an official committee to look at the status of women, and you have Columbia Women's Liberation Group, which looks at the status of women. That is not an official committee, but looks at the status of women at Columbia. And you have me, because I am going to testify and file all these charges... Not I am going to testify. You have me who is going to file all these charges against the universities who secretly going to departments at the University of Maryland and showing them the list of faculty and saying, how many are men and how many are women? And I just say, I am just doing some research, so I need to know the gender. I did not use the word gender. I need to know [inaudible] female. So mine is a very simple study, how many at each rank and whatnot of a few departments. That is it. That is all the studies that have been done by 1970 in terms of on the campus, which means nobody looked at athletics. We looked primarily at rank and the [inaudible] rank of a few of the women, and a few other data that you could get. But they are not... I mean, they are the first studies there. If you looked at them now, you would say, my God, they did not ask about this. They did not ask about this, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Then comes an explosion of studies. I mean, they just explode and they are all over the place. SM (01:28:40): Did a lot of boomer women who were in undergraduate school in the late (19)60s, say through 1975, take the experiences of the movements and say "I want to be on this committee and that committee to make sure women were-" BS (01:28:54): No, nobody wants to be on a committee to work hard. A few do, and the communities committees are best when you have a number of people who are willing to work hard. If you have served on committees, you know a lot of people are not working hard. SM (01:29:06): What are the overall gains that women have made since World War II, and what are some of the failures in your opinion? BS (01:29:13): Between when and when? World War II? SM (01:29:16): From World War II on, the time that boomers have been alive, which is 64 years, what have been the main gains and what have been the main failures? BS (01:29:25): I think... Okay, gains. One, we have a word for sex discrimination, and it is a conceptual, it is not just a word. And it is not a single issue. It is not like suffrage, which is a single issue, and if we get suffrage all, the world will be a better place. But now we know we are talking about many issues, and people can be involved in only one little part of this. Maybe there is a caucus and women on political science and that is the only thing they care about, which is fine, but they are active and they are thinking about this. This is unlike suffrage this time. This is what is different. This includes everything. There is a women's issue to almost a whole bunch of things. I once heard of a conference on women on transportation, and I am saying, what is this about? Where is the women's issue here? Well, the women's issue is if you have women in the suburbs and only one car and no public transportation, women can only get jobs which are near their husband. That is how you are going to get to work, and there is a whole bunch of things that go beyond that. So this is, I think, a huge difference. You now have a conceptual framework in which you can look at women's issues in almost any area, which makes it very different. It is global. It is not even limited to the United States. It is worldwide, and it is probably the only thing that can probably save the planet, because it is a movement which talks about equality and respect. Relationships between men and women, this is all at one end of the continuum, and at the other end, it is laws and how governments maintain themselves. That is a major-major-major difference. We also get is women working. Women working is no longer a rarity. And we are now beginning to get men, it is about a quarter of the marriages in which women make more money than the men, and some men are not threatened now by a wife who makes more money. Both my daughters are married to men who make less money to them, although with the recession, that is changed. But what I am saying is that this is no longer that unusual. And some men are beginning to understand the economic value of a wife who makes a lot of money. One, it is insurance for you if you lose your job. It is a lot better to have one salary than no salary and so forth, and you are going to have a much nicer life if she makes a good living. So that, that is a major change. The relationships between men and women have in some ways gotten better, in some ways gotten worse. Certainly the laws have been improved enormously. We have the best set of laws probably in the world concerning education. We have laws that just prohibit discrimination in a whole bunch of things. One of the things that happened in the late (19)60s and (19)70s when Bella Abzug was in the Congress is every time that bill came up, that was going to include money going to it, she would put in something that said, no sex discrimination will be allowed in this program, because Title IX only covers federally funded education programs. It does not cover road building. Now, there are other things that may cover it, but they will Bella Abzug is shoving this clause and gets people... [inaudible] nobody fights it, because whatever. So you get not just Bella doing this, but you do get a series of laws, laws like Title VII, you get Title IX, you get a whole bunch of things like that. Professional schools begin to open to women. That is a direct result of Edith Green's Title IX and an earlier law so that you get rid of the quotas, and suddenly women are becoming like half of the medical profession, 80 percent. SM (01:33:26): Over. BS (01:33:28): 80 percent of the veterinarians. Cornell Veterinary School used to let two women in per year. SM (01:33:35): Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia, where I worked for four years. BS (01:33:39): That is a good school. SM (01:33:39): ...Had no women in the medical school in 1965. None. Now they are over half the class. BS (01:33:46): Yeah. Yeah. That is a huge thing. Women working and women getting an education is now acceptable. That is again, a huge change in the way in which we perceive women and their role. And although there is still a lot of worry about kids who are left in daycare and so forth. If another study comes out and says "Working mothers do not harm children", and that was the heading on an article within the last year on a study that was reported on in the Washington Post. And you could see what they were still saying underneath, "We really think it may harm them, and here is a study that says it does not". But otherwise you would not write that way, "Working mothers are not harming their children", whatever. SM (01:34:30): Were there any failures? BS (01:34:32): Any failures? Oh, failures, yes. We are still not included in the Constitution of the United States. We have not won that battle, and we are not protected educationally. For example, if Title IX... You know what the Congress giveth, the Congress could taketh, and we do not have any constitutional protections in terms of education. Some other things. The court... Scalia just in September made a statement at a law school in California, and he says he does not believe a 14th amendment applies to women. Now, he is against sex discrimination, but the 14th Amendment does not apply to women. He is an originalist and he does not believe that, and there are a number of people who believe that he is right. And under the Constitution, this is why people wanted the Equal Rights Amendment because it would say equality of rights, et cetera, cannot be bridged on the basis of sex, and that would be very clear. Right now, if you use a constitutional argument for women to not be discriminated against, Scalia is going to vote no, there is no constitutional protection. None. SM (01:35:48): But now we got Sotomayor in there. BS (01:35:48): We got Sotomayor, but we do not have the votes. And Ruth Ginsburg is not going to live forever, and you have got young men who are going to stay there for a long time. Granted, we have three, which is progress, but we do not have five, and we have enough people there who are- BS (01:36:03): ...and we have enough people there who are still going to do, can do some real danger in terms of women's issues. If you think that women are not protected by the Constitution, this is pretty scary. If you think, if the Tea Party wins or whatever- SM (01:36:17): And equal pay for equal work is still an issue. BS (01:36:18): Still an issue, still an issue. Yeah. Women still make less money than men. What has happened is the glass ceiling has gone up higher. So women, excuse me, women can... some of them can reach a little bit higher than they did, but they are still not equal to men. They are still... Now, the progress we have made, I think in 1960 women were earning 60 percent of what men made, which is exactly what the Bible recommends. A man was worth is 50 shekels. A woman was worth is 30 shekels. So there had not been much progress between Biblical times- SM (01:36:55): The Bible says that? BS (01:36:55): Yes, it says that. Yes, it does. That is the Word. And if you look at many, many wage scales, that is what women were earning. Now we are up to about 77 percent, so that is a huge gain from 60 to about 77 percent. But we have not gotten to what would be equity. We have not gotten there. SM (01:37:19): This may be somewhat repetitive, but what are the overall thoughts on the women's movement since the late (19)60s? Some say it was always a mainstream movement. Now, some of my commentaries are from people that I have interviewed. Some say it was always a mainstream movement. Some say that the radical feminists were excluded. That was just the one person. Some say what was once a movement that was united with other movements, I brought this up, has now become more insular and special interests. Not linked to other movements like the anti-war, civil rights, gay and lesbian rights, and then of course the Native American, Asian, and Chicano rights. And this is a criticism of a lot of the movements today, that outside of the event that just happened a week ago here in Washington, which people seem to come from all different liberal perspectives, but that is rare. An anti-war protest, it is just the anti-war movement. You do not see the women's movement there. You do not see the Native American movement. They used to be together in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Their posters were all there. They were all united. They worked together. They were called to be part of a unified effort. BS (01:38:35): I do not know what the informal relationships were. What I do know is that women care about these issues, but maybe not all women do any more than all women care about women's issues. What I do know is in terms of politics, in terms of the law, in terms of policies in the Washington area, this is where I live, in terms of in the Washington area where politics is our main business here, those groups do work together. The women's movement has been very active in terms of gay and lesbian rights, extraordinarily active. I think I mentioned to you, the Title IX people. I have been talking about this with too many people, so I do not know if I said it here or not, but Title IX applies to some of the bullying that is going on. SM (01:39:28): Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. BS (01:39:29): Did I mention this before? SM (01:39:30): I think you get over the phone, yeah. BS (01:39:32): Oh, okay. Okay. But the bullying, because I was talking to someone else who was gay this morning, my hairdresser, we were talking about the suicide of that young man. SM (01:39:40): Oh yeah. BS (01:39:42): That probably was a violation of Title IX, which nobody has mentioned. And I am working hard to get people to take that into account, but I have been very unsuccessful. But on the gay and lesbian issues, I think the women's movement had been particularly involved on a number of issues. And the Title IX issue is one of these. I raised it at a meeting of all women with the director of the Office for Civil Rights earlier. Not this particular incident, but these kinds of incidents. And raised one of the young girl who had, although that was not a gay issue, but bullying. The young girl that killed herself in Massachusetts, I think. The Irish child? SM (01:40:26): Oh, yes-yes. BS (01:40:26): Yeah-yeah. Okay. And- SM (01:40:26): Double checking. Still going. BS (01:40:34): Okay. Okay. And I said that is that is a violation of Title IX, what happened to that child. And she said, "We called that school system the next day. We are there." But they would do the same if it was a gay person as well. And I think particularly on the gay and lesbian issue, the women's groups have been there and are there. I think that is an important one. They are there also for those other groups. Are they involved in the way people would like them to be? That works both ways. And I think within the women's movement, there are Chicanos, Chicanas, there are Hispanic- SM (01:41:15): And Asian Americans. BS (01:41:16): The Asian Americans. Some of them are there and they provide linkages. And there are some women in the women's movements who belong to those particular groups. But I think sometimes people expect more maybe from other groups. I do not know. Or they do not know. All I know is in Washington, these groups work together. You talk about amending any particular law or a new policy that is coming out, and all these people are there and they are meeting together and they are working as a coalition. Does not mean they agree on everything, but they put pressure on as a group. What happens locally, I do not know enough about, but I know that ideologically speaking, the women's movement is with these other groups. And they do mention them continually. You go to a meeting and someone says, "I am hearing all the data about men and women. How come I am not hearing anything about Native American women?" And then someone says, "We could not get that data from the Labor Department," or whatever. Either they would not release it or they did not have it because they said it was too small a group so they did not collect it. But those questions get raised. When I go to meetings, I hear those questions. SM (01:42:30): Think about Donna Harris, is one of the most vocal for Native American women. That is why I- BS (01:42:35): Yes. And she was very active in women's issues when she was in Washington. SM (01:42:38): So I would like to interview her. I interviewed her husband, Senator Harris, former. BS (01:42:42): Yeah. She is a good woman. SM (01:42:44): Was second-wave, was that a direct result of sexism in the anti-war and civil rights and other movements in the late (19)60s? Would you say that second-wave came about because of the sexism within the movement? As a direct result of it? BS (01:43:01): Within the civil rights movement and the others? SM (01:43:02): Yes. BS (01:43:06): It is one part of the movement. There are different historical reasons which attract different peoples. Betty Friedan's book, as I said earlier, attracts middle-aged women who are married and sitting at home and unhappy vaguely. So there is a whole group of those. Then there is these young activists who were active in the civil rights movement and in SNCC and running down south and whatnot, and experience sexism because they are beginning to hear about sex discrimination so they begin to see it. They did not see it earlier, but now they begin to see it. And then you have other people who have been involved for legal reasons. I got involved because I thought it was immoral that sex discrimination was not illegal. That is where I started. And people come in movements for different reasons. But these are the strands. There is this people who care about policies and laws, which are critical. SM (01:44:01): Is the big difference between second-wave feminism and third-wave feminism is third-wave is more... it is not about working together. It is about what is good for me. I have heard the story. It is real... it is like, what is in it for me? And kind of that is third-wave. But second-wave, like any of the movements, was if you even heard the term, what is in it for me? That is not, as Randy Shaw says, activists do not think that way. It is what is in it for us. BS (01:44:34): Yeah. I do not hear so much, what is in it for me? I have never heard that. With second-wave feminists, they tend to think a lot of the problems are solved. And they are, I think, more concerned with body issues like sexual harassment, sexual assault, and abortion perhaps, and getting interested in employment. They are less interested in the laws because they do not think that is a problem. And there still are problems with the laws. Not as great as before. But we still have some problems. Problems. But they are not as discontented. We have made a lot of progress. So you do not have this... we do not have the horror stories anymore. And I think this is an important point. I say this facetiously, but we do not have a horror story. And one of the reasons we were able to get Title IX through, not only because people were not watching, but those people who were watching, you could say, and I used to quote this, this is my favorite figure from pre-war days. Pre-war, feels like it was [inaudible], from pre-Title IX days. In a period in the early 1960s in the state of Virginia, there were 21,000 women who were rejected for admissions to state colleges and universities. SM (01:45:46): In what year, again? BS (01:45:47): In the early (19)60s. I do not know the exact time period. I do not know if it is one year or three years. Probably not more. Somewhere... It is 21,000 are rejected. Now, during the same time period, how many men do you think were rejected by the state of Virginia? SM (01:46:01): Zero. BS (01:46:02): You are right. You are the only one who has ever gotten it right, probably because you read my stuff and it is in there. SM (01:46:07): No, but I can believe it. But I can... it is also- BS (01:46:10): That is what we gained. SM (01:46:11): Senator Byrd was the senator, the powerful senator at that time. BS (01:46:16): Byrd is from West Virginia. SM (01:46:17): Oh, yeah. Well, and this is Virginia you are talking about. BS (01:46:19): This is Virginia. SM (01:46:19): Oh, okay. BS (01:46:20): This is the state of Virginia. Okay. That is what life was like before. Now you tell that to anybody, and I use it as an example because it is a stunning example, people go like, " This is a horror story." And I would throw that figure around all the time because it was true and it was a horror story. I cannot say that now. I can say it as an example of history, but those stories are gone. That is the progress we have made. A lot of the horror stories are gone. Now, we get horror stories still with sexual harassment and sexual assault and with bullying, sexual bullying, and whatnot. But the employment ones, most of them are sexual harassment. We do not get... If you were looking at admissions, it looks like women are doing better than men in admissions to college. And not having the horror stories makes it very hard to attract people and to convince people that there is still a problem. And that is what part of what the problem is with the third-wave feminist. They tend to be younger. They are younger, and they think most of the problems are solved. And from comparing where we were, they are, but they are not all solved. Women are still making less money. Women are still not getting promoted as much. Not as many women make good salaries. Women who are not married and are single mothers, this is a terrible problem. So there are a lot of problems we have not solved, but their feeling is we have solved the major things. SM (01:47:51): Do you think that, this may be a dumb question, but- BS (01:47:54): There is no dumb question. SM (01:47:55): Okay. Well, are men more now part of the solution as opposed to part of the problem? BS (01:48:04): Yes-yes-yes, no-no-no. Depending which men and which. What I think has happened, and I have no data to back this up so it is strictly intuitive... That is the wrong word. It is my analysis. That is better than intuitive. Analysis has different associations, whether it has been an intuition. It is not my intuition I am thinking about this, is I think that in some areas of men and women's relationships, it is almost a bimodal distribution, which is rare in life. Is that we have lots of men who are better than their fathers ever were, and certainly better than their grandfathers were in terms of relationships, in a loving relationship, whether it is marriage or not. But there have been huge differences in that for a lot of men. On the other hand, there are a lot of men who I think are even worse than their father, maybe worse than their fathers. If you look at rape and forms of sexual assault, some of it is increased reporting, but is it all in increased reporting? I have a feeling that for young people, particularly with pornography on the web, the easy access into it, and when I was growing up, if somebody had a picture like that, it was one picture that would be passed around to- SM (01:49:33): Playboy. BS (01:49:35): Yeah-yeah. Playboy. Yeah. Playboy is tame compared to that. But there are a number of men whose relationships with women may even have gotten worse than their fathers, and particularly in terms of sexual assault. There were, I think, eight women taken to the hospital the other day from this college. Forgot what college it was. They think they were given a drug called rohypnol, which is the roofie. SM (01:50:00): Oh, yeah. Yeah. BS (01:50:04): Yeah. And now granted, college boys, there has always been a part of them that some of them have done... But I do not know, but it just seems to me some of them are worse in the way, in their attitudes towards women. Because before at least you had some... you did have anger towards women and everything, but you have had, even though men may have been involved in a powerful relationship that was somewhat protective of women. And I think there is a lot of anger towards women, if you look at domestic, wife battering and things like that. But I am not sure. I do not know of anybody who has done a... You have to have a pre and post, and I do not know how you could measure the past. But certainly there are a group of young men in our country, and I am not talking here about political attitudes, but whose attitudes towards sexual assault and taking advantage. I hear the stories of women being raped on campus. I hear a lot of them. And we do not have adequate figures from before to compare. So I may be just seeing what is there. Who knows? SM (01:51:13): Right. I have a question that I have asked everyone, and that is... There is two things. There is the issue of healing and the issue of trust. The question dealing with healing was something that I took a group of students to Washington, DC in (19)95 to meet Senator Muskie. And this was before he died. I do not know if you ever had a chance to meet him, but- BS (01:51:36): No, I did not, but I respected him enormously. SM (01:51:40): He had just gotten out of the hospital. We organized the trip because of our linkage with Gaylord Nelson, because we had brought Gaylord Nelson to our campus twice and he set these up. The students came up with this question, and it was based on a film they saw of 1968 with all the divisions, the convention, and the assassinations and the burnings of the cities, and you name it. Due to all the divisions, this is the question, due to other divisions in America, particularly affecting the boomer generation, do you feel that the boomer generation itself, those men and women from all backgrounds and ethnic groups and orientations, are going to go to their graves, similar to the Civil War generation, not truly healing because the divisions between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops, those who did not. And they thought the Senator Muskie was going to talk about (19)68, where the cops kept beating over the heads. And were we close to a second civil war and all that other stuff, they wanted his response. And the perception is, I brought this question and the students discussed it and then I have gone to Gettysburg four times a year to understand the impact that war has. And so they have a statue over there of the last person who died who was a part of the Civil War. In 1924, he died. So I said, is the boomer generation, does this generation of 74 million have a problem with healing from all these tremendous divisions? They are going to go to their graves bitter, not liking people. And do you think we have a problem in America dealing with the issue of healing? And boomer generation. BS (01:53:30): The boomer generation. No, because I think most of them did not really care that much about a lot of the issues you are making, you are talking about. I think they were not that involved. And I think people grow and change. I think if one looks at the differences in relationships between Blacks and whites, sure, there is a lot of bad things going on. But in lots of schools, there is a lot of good things going on. People have friends, friendships now. This has happened with boys and girls. There are more friendships now. Both of my grandsons have had women who are friends. Not dates, not sexual partners, but this is my friend. SM (01:54:14): Oh, yeah. That is a big trend now. BS (01:54:15): Yeah. Would have been impossible when I was in school. Either you dated boys, or if you talk to any boys you were not dating, it was the boy's friends of whom you dated. But otherwise, you had very little to do with boys. Having a friendship with a boy was extraordinarily rare. And this is not rare anymore. That is healing. That is a change. SM (01:54:32): Good point. BS (01:54:33): Yeah. That is a change. And I think the same thing is happening with Blacks and whites. You have a lot of Blacks and whites who are friends. Now, you still have hatred. For various groups, sure, that is still there. But this is very different. I am old enough to remember when I worked in a Black settlement house when I was very young as a teenager. My mother was hysterical because it was not safe. I never worried about it. And I had a wonderful experience. And then the woman who headed this settlement house had a party for the volunteers and my mother would not let me go. You do not go to Black people's houses. And my mother was not anti-Black. She was a civil rights person all the way, but the social distance was enormous. And the social distance between Blacks and whites and between men and women, I had not thought of it that way. Between men and women, the social distance has diminished. That is... SM (01:55:29): That is good. BS (01:55:30): Now granted, that is the younger part of it, but you see changes. I see changes in the people I grew up with or the people my age, how we have all changed, and I think this has happened with the boomers too, is they have changed. They have moved on. I do not meet a lot of people who are bitter, but then I meet a lot of people who- SM (01:55:52): Somebody said I should have clarified this by saying those who went to Vietnam and those who did not, and- BS (01:55:58): Well, Vietnam, yeah. That bitterness is there. SM (01:56:00): ...the bitterness, and the Wall, what has the Wall played in that healing? Let me tell you that Senator Muskie did not even respond to 1968, made no mention of it. He responded by saying we have not healed since the Civil War on the issue of race, and the issue of race. And then he went on to say he had just seen the Ken Burns series, and it had touched him because he had been in the hospital. 430,000 men died, almost an entire generation of the South was wiped out. BS (01:56:30): Huge-huge. SM (01:56:31): And very few men were even there to be fathers. I could not believe. So that is the way he responded. But certainly if I had changed that around to those who served in Vietnam, the 3 million, and then those who were the anti-war movement, that might be a little bit different. BS (01:56:48): That is different. And being white and middle class, I did not know many people who had children or relatives or friends in Vietnam. I am the generation slightly before. I really did not... I am trying to think if I knew anyone who served in Vietnam. Now, I cared about the war and I thought it was a stupid war and so forth. But I am just thinking, I do not know anybody so I cannot say I know people are bitter. But I read about them in the newspapers and they have a right to be bitter. SM (01:57:19): Yeah, and the Wall... You have been to the Wall, have not you? BS (01:57:21): Yes. SM (01:57:23): When you went to the Wall for the first time, what was your reaction? BS (01:57:27): Such a sadness. Such a sadness. So many wasted lines. And I think a lot of people feel that. It is also artistically and ethically so good to see the names being honored, which you do not really... you see it occasionally in very small towns. There will be a Civil War memorial and the list of boys, and they were boys often, who were killed in the Civil War business. But it is a memorial the size of the ceiling, and there is 25 names on it [inaudible]. But when you see it for the whole country, just... SM (01:58:03): And of course, you have to think about the 3 million that died in Vietnam too. When you think of- BS (01:58:08): Civilians. SM (01:58:08): Yes. BS (01:58:09): It is a terrible-terrible-terrible time. SM (01:58:13): Unbelievable. BS (01:58:17): But I think it is very hard to live being bitter. And even those Vietnam veterans, many, when you talk to them, they sound bitter, but they all also have lives. They are not sitting in a corner being bitter. They have married, they work. They are not bitter in their lives. Well, they are bitter about Vietnam, and I think that is a very different question. They may not ever heal from Vietnam. That is a wound that continually festers. But they are in relatively good shape. And I hope that will happen with the veterans of this war. These wars. SM (01:59:01): Post-traumatic stress disorders are rampant in this group. BS (01:59:04): Rampant, absolutely rampant because they keep fighting. They fight, they go home, and then they come back and they fight some more. And that is not the way we used to fight wars. SM (01:59:13): The other quality was trust and that is, that is a quality that many people have labeled the movement generation as a generation that does not trust because a lot of leaders lied to them, whether it be Watergate or Gulf of Tonkin, or even Eisenhower, U2. Remember, on college campuses in the (19)60s, no one trusted anybody in positions of responsibility, no matter who they were. BS (01:59:35): We are seeing that again with the Tea Party. SM (01:59:37): Yeah. BS (01:59:38): And I do not think those are boomers, are they? SM (01:59:40): No-no. Well- BS (01:59:41): So maybe the edge of the boomers? SM (01:59:43): Yeah, they are more working class, I think though too. I am not sure. I do not know if anybody has done the study. I am sure there is a lot of college educated people in that group, but I think it was more working class. BS (01:59:55): Yeah. But they are angry and they do not trust the government. SM (01:59:57): Yeah. Right. BS (01:59:57): There is a lot of division. SM (01:59:58): Do you think that is a good quality to have? You were a psychology major. BS (02:00:04): Yeah. But years and years ago. Yeah. I think a healthy skepticism is nice. A blanket distrust is closer to paranoia. But- SM (02:00:14): In political science, we learn that... when you learn political science, that the healthier the nation is when the citizens do not trust their government because- BS (02:00:24): Then they are watching you. SM (02:00:24): ...you are accountable. BS (02:00:34): Yeah. I was going to say something and now I have forgotten what it was. Oh dear. Brilliant statements. SM (02:00:34): Well, think about it- BS (02:00:38): Oh, I know. What I was going to say is I recently read a book about Lincoln. And the partisanship around Lincoln between the Republicans and the Democrats, I do not know if they were Democrats then, but between the two parties was awful, unbelievably bad. And I had forgotten whatever I knew or did not know before, but it reminded me of a lot of the current stuff that we are hearing. There was anger and hatred and lack of trust and disrespect, and the partisanship was incredible. And I think we have forgotten that is our history to some degree. Now, it is not always good for the nation. I worry about the Tea Party and stuff like that, but it is not unusual. Democracy is just very messy. SM (02:01:29): Yeah. BS (02:01:30): Very messy. SM (02:01:33): Even when Jackson was alive. Oh my God. People hated Jackson. Some people- BS (02:01:38): That is right. Some people still hate Jackson. SM (02:01:40): Some people believe that the... I cannot believe people are writing this, because the first six presidents, there was disagreements between Hamilton and Jefferson. BS (02:01:51): That is right. There were- SM (02:01:53): Very strong differences. And Aaron Burr, obviously. BS (02:01:56): Yes. Yeah-yeah-yeah. SM (02:01:57): But they say that the way we treat each other, the way we talk to each other, all started with Jackson and I do not understand. BS (02:02:08): They were dueling with each other. My God, they were shooting each other. SM (02:02:12): They were making fun of his wife. That is what they were trying to do there. BS (02:02:15): They made fun of a lot of people. SM (02:02:18): I have just got just a couple more questions then, we are done here. What do you think of what is going on with women in the military? I know that you... Yeah, I- BS (02:02:30): The sexual assault or in terms of women in the military in general? SM (02:02:33): I was curious when you went before Congress in those congressional hearings and the congresswoman that you worked with, Congresswoman- BS (02:02:40): Green. SM (02:02:41): ...Green. BS (02:02:42): Green. Yeah. SM (02:02:42): How were you treated as women? Because when Diane Carlson Evans went to Congress to try to get the Women's Memorial, some of them swore at her. And did you ever have that? BS (02:02:55): No, I did not have that. Well, I was fairly insulated. I was just... It is true I was working on women's issues, but most of the time I was in an office. SM (02:03:03): Oh, okay. BS (02:03:05): But I do remember when I first started on the staff, one of the men walked me to some other office because I probably could not find it or something or other. And I come from New York, and I walk with a strong, fast stride, and it is a longer stride. I am walking firmly. And he looked at me and he said, "Oh my God, you even walk like a man." SM (02:03:28): Who said that? BS (02:03:29): One of the staff members. SM (02:03:30): Oh my gosh. BS (02:03:31): Yeah. Well, talking about women and talking about changing things, it is pretty scary. Nobody wants to change unless you are uncomfortable. And this guy, he is just feeling uncomfortable, but not in a way where he wants to change or anything, because even just walking that way... The other thing is that pantsuits were just coming in and I was just beginning to wear them, and I was not allowed to wear them to work. Edith Green would not allow them. And the first woman who wore one on the floor of the House of Representatives was former governor Ella Grasso, or maybe she became governor later, from Connecticut. And she wore pantsuits, and the men made comments which are in the- SM (02:04:08): Hillary wore them. BS (02:04:09): Yeah, but that is much later. Here, we are talking about the early (19)70s. Women do not wear pantsuits in official places. And I think a woman wore a pantsuit before the Supreme Court then was chastised by one of the justices. And women wear dresses when they go before the Supreme Court, as far as I know now, still. SM (02:04:27): Two areas, and that is women in the military. Compare women in the military during the Vietnam War, and most of them were nurses, and women in the military now in Afghanistan and Iraq. Where is the- BS (02:04:40): I think a couple of things have happened is women are technically not allowed to go in combat, and that assumes that there is a line where people are fighting for almost hand to hand combat. That is not how this war is being fought. It is just not how it is being fought. You are driving someplace, from one place to another, and you are attacked. Now you have two choices. Say, " Oh, I am a woman. I do not hold a gun. I do not do any of those things." But fortunately, they have issued you a gun, so you are going to use it. So women are doing combat and nobody is really looking at it because there is a law that says women are not supposed to be in combat. They fly planes. They fly helicopters. There was one woman during the Kuwait War, I think, who was captured, pilot. I think also a physician was captured. So there is a lot more combat... SM (02:05:28): I will let that one go to equipment. BS (02:05:35): The number of women [inaudible] a quote. They would rather have a non-high school student, male, who is a juvenile delinquent, then take more educated women, high school graduates, or even college graduate. There is a quote on the number of women. That is gone up slowly. I do not know what it is now, 15 percent or something, whatever. But ever since the Kuwait War, there has been a change. Every politician or commentator on the news now never talks about the men in our armed forces. The men and women in our armed forces, whether they are a Democrat, a Tea Party person, a Republican, does not matter where they are from the political spectrum, and that is, again, a symbol of a huge change. Big, big change. SM (02:06:25): This has all happened in the lives of boomers and boomer women. BS (02:06:29): Yes. This is everybody. This is everybody. We now will get soldiers, now, we are not drafting anybody, and it would be legal to just draft men. We would have a lawsuit about it, and the Supreme Court would have to find out if it was discrimination not to draft women. I think it would be. But nobody is suggesting that. It is probably one of the, I do not know for sure, nobody is suggesting a draft anyway. But our attitude towards women in the military has changed somewhat. However, those women in the military, and here is a statistic for you, they are more likely to be sexually assaulted than to die in the war. SM (02:07:07): Yeah. I know we- BS (02:07:08): Or to even be injured in the war. SM (02:07:09): We brought, we had a student affairs before I left. We brought this issue up at a summer retreat, and Dennis Traister, an Iraq veteran, came back and talked about it, and it is an embarrassment. And he did not do it, but he knows this is happening, and it is really having a terrible image on the veterans returning. Because it is almost, when you think about it, if it is so rampant, and it supposedly is, then... And then of course, when Vietnam vets came back, they were looked upon as baby killers. And even though the majority did not kill babies, a lot of people would say that oh, many of them did. It is a lot more rampant than you think it was. It is not just all only [inaudible]. BS (02:07:57): But it is against the policy now. SM (02:07:58): Yeah. BS (02:07:59): I do not know if it was against the policy then. It is against the policy now. SM (02:08:00): Yeah. No, it was not, but still, there was a... BS (02:08:03): Against policy then it- SM (02:08:03): Yeah. BS (02:08:03): It is not against the policy now. SM (02:08:03): No, it was not, but still, there was a conduct code. BS (02:08:04): Yeah. But it is a real problem for women. On the other hand it is... I was watching an interview of a soldier who was like a platoon leader or whatever. And he was saying..." And he was not talking about women's issues. He said, "The men and women in my platoon, they are fantastic." And this is a small unit. And the women generally have proved themselves to be quite good. I mean, you really got to love the military. You have to want to go into it. But they are there and they help. And to the extent that more and more of wars will be run by computers. Or lots of parts of the war... SM (02:08:47): Right. BS (02:08:49): Even when you have the ground stuff that goes on in Afghanistan and Iraq, you still need people to do computers. You now fly a plane by sitting somewhere in the West. You fly these drones over in Iraq. SM (02:09:01): Well, you talked about the fact that women were not involved in math, science and technology. BS (02:09:06): That is right. SM (02:09:07): Now we are talking about the Bill Gates and the Steve Jobs now. BS (02:09:10): Yeah. SM (02:09:10): Where are the women... Are women equal now in say, Silicon Valley? BS (02:09:14): No. SM (02:09:14): And the- BS (02:09:15): No, they are not. SM (02:09:16): No. BS (02:09:16): They are not. They do not run Silicon Valley. When computers first started, you had women who were systems analysts because it was a new field and it had no sex roles in it. And then as the field gets bigger and more solidified and older, you get sex roles emerging. So that men are better in computers than women. This was not true at the beginning. There were women who were inventing computer languages and whatnot. At the beginning it was different. There were no sex roles. This is all brand new. So you cannot say, "Only women do this." Or, "I am more comfortable if men do it." You do not have that now. You have much more differentiation. And indeed, computer technology is one of the places in terms of people majoring in it. The number of women has dropped in the last few years. [inaudible] SM (02:10:02): So this is an area now where Boomer men probably have failed in terms of women have not been encouraged to be... BS (02:10:10): I... Yeah. SM (02:10:11): Bill Gates works closely with his wife on philanthropy. BS (02:10:14): Oh, yes. SM (02:10:15): But he sold everything. BS (02:10:16): Yeah. SM (02:10:16): He does not oversee anything anymore. But Steve Jobs is all the time up there. And there is others besides those two. BS (02:10:23): Yeah. SM (02:10:24): Just quick responses and then this is it. BS (02:10:27): Okay. SM (02:10:27): These are just at the very end. I always... I had written down here yesterday, I saw Rush, I heard Rush Limbaugh talking about the National Organization for Women and he called them Nags N-A-G-S. BS (02:10:42): Yeah. SM (02:10:43): And he says they are a bunch of demi-Nazis. So he is still doing is his thing. BS (02:10:51): A lot of people are still upset with women. And if women stand up for their rights. There is a wonderful quote by Rebecca West who was a writer a number of years ago. I cannot remember anything she has written. But she says, "I do not understand why people call me a feminist when I get angry when they want me to act like a doormat." That is not quite a direct quote, but you got the sense of- SM (02:11:15): It is just a quick response... BS (02:11:18): Yeah. SM (02:11:19): Just a thought on any of, these are just major events. BS (02:11:20): Yeah. SM (02:11:21): Kent State and Jackson State. BS (02:11:25): Kent State, I remember. What, well I am trying. But Jackson State, something happened there but I am drawing an absolute blank. SM (02:11:31): That is where two African American students were killed 10 days later after protesting. And they- BS (02:11:36): In Mississippi? SM (02:11:37): Yes, yeah. BS (02:11:37): Jackson State. Okay, and I have been there. Yeah. I had forgotten that. I had forgotten that. SM (02:11:42): It was 1970, and it was a major event. BS (02:11:45): I am going to Kent State in December to speak there. SM (02:11:49): It is a good school. BS (02:11:49): It is a very good school and lots a good people there. SM (02:11:50): Great school. BS (02:11:51): So I have been thinking a little bit about what happened there. But I... This is history. Right now I think it would be very difficult to send troops to a college, to quiet things down. SM (02:12:04): Oh, yeah. BS (02:12:04): To send the National Guard out. But who knows what will happen? One hopes that they are better trained now. SM (02:12:09): Yeah. BS (02:12:10): And they probably are. That does not mean that you do not get people who do bad things. SM (02:12:16): I think, I hope presidents even... I think presidents should have learned about whether you invite these groups onto campus to begin with. Watergate. BS (02:12:24): Well, you see, but that is a free speech issue. SM (02:12:26): Yeah. BS (02:12:27): That is a free speech issue. And you cannot... It is very hard because there are lots of groups that really say bad things about other groups of people. And they do have a right to say them. In a state university. In a private university, you have no First Amendment rights. SM (02:12:42): Right. BS (02:12:43): And so you could say in a private university, "Sorry, we are just not letting the Tea Party people speak." Or, "We are not letting whatever." SM (02:12:49): Yeah, Villanova that a couple times. BS (02:12:52): Yeah, but if you are in a public institution, it is very hard legally to get rid of people You do not want to speak. You have to let them speak. Now, you may have to provide, may have come up with some rules and you may have to have a security force and you may have to do things like that. SM (02:13:08): Well, I do not think Villanova wanted David Horowitz there. BS (02:13:10): But David Horowitz still spoke there. Yeah, well he has a right to speak there. SM (02:13:14): Yeah. BS (02:13:14): And I think students would be right if they said, "You are not letting, you are only letting us hear people you like." SM (02:13:19): Yeah. BS (02:13:19): "We want to hear the other side." I would support their right. SM (02:13:23): Any thought that Watergate? Just quick thoughts? BS (02:13:30): Watergate was an awful experience for the United States. I have no question about that. But I will tell you a story about Watergate. At the time of Watergate, everybody in Washington is talking about it. Everybody is talking about, "Did you meet anybody?" You say, "Did you see the news this morning?" Or, "Did you see the article yesterday?" Or whatever. So it is big news. There is one place where it is not ever mentioned, and this is the Republican women in the White House who are meeting with a whole bunch of other women, mostly Democrats to work on women's issues. We come and we meet with Anne Armstrong and some of her female people. And we talk about various, whatever's going on, what we need, what we think the government ought to do and everything. SM (02:14:18): Yeah. BS (02:14:19): No one mentions Watergate. SM (02:14:21): Oh my God. BS (02:14:22): That is the only place... It was so obvious that no, everyone was being extraordinarily polite. And I think what was going on, I think symbolically this is interesting, is because what it showed... It has become harder now I think in some ways. But women who are very different in their backgrounds and their political beliefs can unite among some of the women's issues. And indeed they still do. If you look at women, you look at both in the United States and women's programs overseas, and I mean, not everybody is a Democrat. You know, do get people who, of different views who care about some of these issues. SM (02:15:01): Right. BS (02:15:02): And they work on some of these issues. [inaudible] And I think that instance, and I think the sadness that has happened is that the issue has changed enough. It is now mostly... But it is not only Democrats. There are some Republican women who care. And the popularity of someone like Sarah Palin is very interesting. SM (02:15:28): Yeah, I read a very good article on... What the heck was it... They think she is going to be the candidate. I do not think she is. I think it is going to be Romney. But- BS (02:15:37): Question is, can she get elected? SM (02:15:39): But Romney does not like her. I know that. They do not like- BS (02:15:43): No, anyone who is a real politician, does not like her. SM (02:15:46): Woodstock. BS (02:15:47): Woodstock, I kind of looked at Woodstock with some amusements and shock. Because I am of the generation before. I was delighted that my kids were not there. I know that area because I spent my summers in that area. The same postal, the zone. SM (02:16:05): Did you have a generation gap? Because that is- BS (02:16:07): I think it is... Yeah, there' is always a generation gap. I mean, you look at Roman writings and the young people are all, they like to rebel and they see, they want the world to be different than, well, they should want it to be different. And so there is a generation gap. You have some different values. When my kids were talking about choosing not to get married, I had to really think about that long and hard. And it took me a while to realize that their happiness was much more important than whether they got married. And if they felt they could be happier not being married then. That is what it needed to be. And I think on a lot of issues, that is what happens is you rethink your views and people change. I mean, that is the other thing that is really exciting about looking at history is you realize some things never changed, but some things do. SM (02:16:55): Look at Gloria Steinem. She did not get married until real late. BS (02:16:59): That is right. Yeah. And then the guy died, which was sad. SM (02:17:03): Oh, he did die? BS (02:17:03): Yeah, he died a few years after. SM (02:17:04): Oh. BS (02:17:04): I think it was less than five years. He had some dreadful illness. SM (02:17:08): Just hippies and yippies. I do not know what you thought of them. BS (02:17:15): Yeah. I think they served a purpose. People at the extremes help you in the middle, change your view. And you never quite go to those extremes. But you think about some of those things and the whole casualness in dress, it is partly because of the way the hippies dressed. SM (02:17:32): Do you think that the counterculture, which was a very popular word... BS (02:17:37): Yeah. SM (02:17:37): Were there women in the counterculture? There certainly were. BS (02:17:38): Certainly in communes that those two things have had an effect on women today in any way? I know in a lot of the communes, sexism got to be real issue that they had to deal with. I think there are always things on the fringe of society that have limited effects. But sometimes they have hidden effects. I mean, there is something appealing about people living together in a group that cooperates with each other. That is an old human ideal. And they were trying, and did not quite succeed beyond the few. And even those have changed. I do not know what the impact was. SM (02:18:19): The- BS (02:18:20): Excuse me. But sometimes the philosophical impact, the notion of what they were trying to do is appealing and makes one think of cooperation and cooperative societies, even though one would never live, perhaps... I mean, this is how I look at them. SM (02:18:34): I always looked at communes as drama out. BS (02:18:37): Yeah, well, some of them were, and they are all controversial and they are all different. But they were not as important as the media thought they were. And then this is, I think one of the problems is the media made some of these... Because we have mass media, and even though we did not have computers, then we had television. And so they have to fill that thing up 24 hours a day. And so anything that looks important gets tremendous coverage. SM (02:19:04): Attica and Wounded Knee. BS (02:19:05): Yeah. SM (02:19:06): Now Attica obviously was the terrible... BS (02:19:08): Yeah, the prison riot. SM (02:19:08): Yeah. BS (02:19:08): Yeah, and then Wounded Knee. SM (02:19:11): And then Wounded Knee was the Native American and then... BS (02:19:12): Yeah. I think Wounded Knee probably had more importance. Attica, you start off, I mean, after all they are "Prisoners." I am putting quotes around that. So you do not have the best... They are all bad people to some degree. So that colors what happens. On the other hand, you do not want them to be treated like animals. SM (02:19:30): Yeah. BS (02:19:31): So it probably had an impact on some prison reform. I do not know enough about prison reform to know what happened, but it would not surprise me. It certainly, I think was a shock to many people how badly prisoners were treated. And I am sure another set of people said that, "Well, they got exactly what they deserved. We should not be coddling them." But I think the American Indian movements had a different kind of impact because that had to do with history. And we have not treated Indians, well, Native Americans in our histories. I did not know anything about Indian culture at all until probably in the (19)50s. We took a trip to the West and I saw some Indian communities and I was absolutely stunned. I knew nothing about this. SM (02:20:19): If I hear one more time, people say gambling casinos or... BS (02:20:23): Oh, well... SM (02:20:25): Now they are getting good jobs because of the casinos. BS (02:20:27): Only some of them, only some of them, not for most of them. SM (02:20:31): These are some of- BS (02:20:34): But I think historically it becomes very interesting because it makes them now a disadvantaged group that we need to think about. They become part of America in a different way. And I think that was extraordinarily important because it got people interested in Native Americans. All we knew was that they found people and whatever. Defeated by Custer. SM (02:20:55): What did you think of the Students for Democratic Society and then the Weathermen that the violent group that came out of that group? BS (02:21:02): Yeah. Students for Democratic Society were in my college, Brooklyn College in the late forties when I went to college and I was thinking of joining. And my mother in her wisdom said, "Do not join." She said, "It is not going to be good for you in the future." She said, "Do not join. If you want to go to the Navy, go to the Navy, but do not join." It turned out to be very good advice. SM (02:21:21): Yeah. BS (02:21:24): Because it is not so good to lie on an FBI... SM (02:21:26): Yeah, that is right. BS (02:21:28): The FBI investigation and whatnot. So... SM (02:21:31): Yeah, going violent is, I have had different responses that one. BS (02:21:37): Yeah. Violence I think is a bad thing to do. The only time one should ever be violent is in self-defense. SM (02:21:44): These are personal- BS (02:21:44): Or in a war. SM (02:21:45): These are personalities. Just quick thoughts on the person. Tom Hayden. BS (02:21:50): Tom Hayden. See, I am not a Boomer, so he had a different effect on me. I thought he raised some good issues. I thought he was a little more radical than I was comfortable with. But he was raising interesting issues. And... SM (02:22:04): Jane Fonda. BS (02:22:06): Jane Fonda. I happened to like Jane Fonda. I think she was probably misled in terms of Vietnam to some degree. But she meant well and I liked her. But I have to tell you, that is colored by my feelings towards exercise and her feelings towards exercise. And she is female, too. So that may also make a difference... SM (02:22:25): The two guys that were the yippie, Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman. They were the ones that... BS (02:22:31): Oh God, yes. I do not know what I thought about them. They were not central to my consciousness. I do not think I liked them, but I certainly did not hate them. I mean, it never reached that level. But I do not think they reached me. But there was always something... They were criticizing parts of society sometimes that made sense. SM (02:22:52): Yeah. BS (02:22:53): And that part I think was good. But they again, they are not my generation. SM (02:22:58): David Harris. BS (02:22:59): I am not even sure who David Harris is, except with sounds familiar. SM (02:23:04): He married Joan Baez. He went off to jail for... BS (02:23:05): Oh God, yes-yes-yes. SM (02:23:07): Resisting the draft. BS (02:23:08): Yeah. But you see, I know so little about him. I do not- SM (02:23:11): Cesar Chavez. BS (02:23:11): Cesar Chavez, I liked, because he was really working directly with the underdogs, and he was really working for people who were being taken advantage of. And so he appealed to me. And I come from a family that was quite pro-union. I learned... We never went into a store that had a strike line, has a picket line in front of it. SM (02:23:33): Right. BS (02:23:34): ...In front of it. And he was working for unionization of these poor people. So he had a bigger impact on me because he appeals to my old values. SM (02:23:43): How about NOW? BS (02:23:45): NOW? SM (02:23:46): National Organization for Women. BS (02:23:52): They had an enormous influence. They were the only organization for a long time. The small group that I joined was started by... I think I mentioned this earlier. So I had two classes yesterday. So I talked about some of the same things... SM (02:24:07): [inaudible] BS (02:24:08): I am not sure whether I said this yesterday, last night or this morning. But there were concerns that NOW was too radical for middle class women. And Elizabeth Boyer started the Women's Equity Action League, WEAL, which is what I filed under. WEAL, was filing those charges. SM (02:24:25): I have- BS (02:24:25): Because she worried that middle class women would be turned off by some of the activities of NOW. They held demonstrations. SM (02:24:33): Right. BS (02:24:34): At this point, I had never been in a demonstration or parade in my life. And so it seemed pretty not good for me, so I did not join NOW immediately. But this other organization looked like it was much more dignified. Betty Boyer was particularly concerned that the abortion issue would turn off a lot of women. And though she set up NOW so it did not take a stand either way on abortion. She was very pro-choice. But she set up the organization so that would not be something that could destroy the organization. Years later, they came up with a stance for pro-choice, but it was set up initially... And it was wonderful. There were a whole bunch of women like me. We would not join NOW because we would not march in a parade. Well, of course, I cannot tell you how many parades I marched in and rallies I have spoken at and whatnot. But WEAL became a place for stepping into the nice shallow water of the Women's Movement. And then you could expand. And then they died rather suddenly when they lost some funding a few years later. SM (02:25:36): At least the magazine keeps going strong though. BS (02:25:38): This magazine is still good. I still subscribe. SM (02:25:40): Now that they get good writers. BS (02:25:43): So yeah, they get good writers and they write about things nobody else is writing about. SM (02:25:47): Yeah. The Miss America Protest of (19)68. What did you think of that? BS (02:25:54): Oh, yeah. I liked that they did that. I watched Miss America every year. SM (02:25:57): That was Carol Hanish. BS (02:25:57): Was it? SM (02:25:57): Yeah. BS (02:25:58): Okay. Then you probably know that bras were never burned. SM (02:26:00): Yeah. BS (02:26:01): Okay. What I have heard, that part I know is true, that they were never burned. What I have heard, but I do not know if this is true, is that they tried to get a fire permit and could not get one. I do not know if that is real or not. But I- SM (02:26:11): I am not sure. I know they had a banner up... BS (02:26:13): I love the story. SM (02:26:14): Four of them had a banner. BS (02:26:16): Yeah. Now I thought it was a good idea. And I was someone who had watched every year. And they showed America what Miss America really was. And I thought it was absolutely lovely. Yeah. SM (02:26:29): And I- BS (02:26:29): I did not like the ideas of them throwing bras away. SM (02:26:32): Anita Bryant, I talking to her, another personality of that. BS (02:26:36): Yeah. I thought she was somewhat sad. She did not really... She really was certainly homophobic and anti-female and fortunately not terribly powerful and faded into obscurity fairly quickly, which was good. SM (02:26:50): Emmett Till, of course. BS (02:26:51): Emmett Till, yeah. Absolutely awful. Absolutely awful. SM (02:26:55): I just had a whole James Meredith... BS (02:26:58): Yeah. SM (02:26:59): And certainly the civil rights room with the big four. BS (02:27:02): These were great. These were- SM (02:27:02): Plus boycotts. BS (02:27:03): Yeah. Some of these were very, very brave people. I mean, they literally laid their lives on the line and some of them were killed. I do not know if I could do that. I probably could do it now because I am older and my kids do not need me. But as a middle-aged or young person, to do that I think requires incredible courage. SM (02:27:23): Yeah. It is like, I think it is Casey Hayden, Tom Hayden's first wife. BS (02:27:28): Yeah. SM (02:27:30): She said she would be in she' would interview with me, but she keeps delaying it. BS (02:27:32): Oh. SM (02:27:32): She does not do interviews anymore. BS (02:27:35): Oh. SM (02:27:37): But certainly the women who went south, those young women and men who went south. BS (02:27:43): Yeah, some of them were killed. SM (02:27:43): Yeah. BS (02:27:43): A woman from Michigan. Viola- SM (02:27:45): Viola Liuzzo. BS (02:27:46): Yeah. SM (02:27:48): Stonewall. BS (02:27:49): Stonewall- SM (02:27:49): 1969. BS (02:27:52): I did not notice it very much at the time. I remember reading about it, but not thinking very much about it. But of course, it was the beginning of another movement. And something like that, it is interesting how movements physically start, because clearly these people were around before. SM (02:28:10): Oh, yeah. BS (02:28:10): But they were not... Now, they could coalesce. And I think this has happened with women's issues for individual women. There was not the defining moment. Everybody did not read Betty Friedan's book at the same time. And indeed there were people before Betty Friedan doing things on it. We do not have a defining moment as such. But I think for some movements you do have that. And for the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, et cetera, that was a defining movement. And they could do that in part because the women's movement and the civil rights movement had said, "You have a right to feel this way. You have a right to be respected for what you are and for what you do." I mean, that is the message of the civil rights movement and the women's movement. Which lays the groundwork then for other movements to come up and say, "Yeah, we deserve respect. We have rights. Just like you have rights." And in general, they have been... The Women's Movement has had lesbians in it. Not... Can I tell you a story? SM (02:29:13): Yeah. BS (02:29:18): [inaudible] The first nationally sponsored conference of women is the Houston Conference in 1977. And so the government was not paying for us to come. SM (02:29:27): The first year in California. BS (02:29:28): Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. SM (02:29:30): Yeah. BS (02:29:30): So you can place it in time. SM (02:29:31): Yeah. BS (02:29:32): So the Women's Movement is gathering speed. We have gotten some laws passed and everything. And this is official. The government... We had congresswomen that are coming, and some of the first ladies are coming. I mean, there is some big, big deal. And they have lots of resolutions. And all the resolutions pass unanimously. We need no discrimination here and reform this and want to... Yes, everybody says unanimously. Now you know the resolutions in advance. And there is one on lesbianism. And I am thinking, politically, this is not a good idea. It is going to split people apart. It is going to turn people off. This is what I am thinking. So I asked someone whom I respect enormously, who runs the Women's National Center... What is this… This is the worst part of getting old you get mixed up on some these initials. This is the National Women's Law Center. That is it. National Women's Law Center. And she is someone I respect enormously. I mean, she is just terrific as a human being and intellectually and legally. So we are talking about this, and I say, "I just think this is a bad idea." I said, "It is going to cause political stuff and it is going to make the women look bad and everything." And she looks at me and she says, "Do you know there are lesbians in the Women's Movement?" I said, "Really? Who?" And she starts reeling off some names of women I have worked with whom I had never noticed. SM (02:30:55): Oh, wow. BS (02:30:56): Looking back, I could see the signs were there, but I myself knew so little about this. I had never met anyone I knew except one young man once... SM (02:31:05): Right. BS (02:31:06): Who apparently was gay, and everybody knew it, but it was a new idea for me. I said, "Really?" I remember the tone of voice, even. Yeah. SM (02:31:15): That was like I was in graduate school at Ohio State... BS (02:31:17): Yeah. SM (02:31:17): ...In 1972, and we had our evening class... BS (02:31:21): Yeah. SM (02:31:21): And I know it was Dr. Johnson. And the class had 20 students, so they were about 10 males, 10 females. BS (02:31:29): Yeah. SM (02:31:30): And at the very end, we are talking about anti-war... BS (02:31:35): Yeah. SM (02:31:36): The war Vietnam, the protest movement, civil rights issues of African American women. BS (02:31:40): Yeah. SM (02:31:40): And Dr. Johnson said," I would like all 10 of the men to stay after." BS (02:31:46): Oh, wow. SM (02:31:48): I said, "What is this?" BS (02:31:49): Yeah. SM (02:31:50): "Why are we staying after?" BS (02:31:51): Yeah. SM (02:31:51): I would like you to... And then the women left. BS (02:31:55): Yeah. SM (02:31:56): And the guy that he said, "I would like you to meet the first person who is going after a PhD in gay studies in America." His name is Dr. Allen Herbst. BS (02:32:12): Oh my God. SM (02:32:12): And here he is. He came in. BS (02:32:12): Wow. SM (02:32:12): Dr. Johnson was… BS (02:32:12): Wow. SM (02:32:12): I guess he had just popped into the campus. BS (02:32:15): Something, yeah. SM (02:32:18): And Dr. Johnson... And we are looking, I guess I must have been pretty naive because I knew nothing about this stuff. BS (02:32:22): Well a lot of us were naive. SM (02:32:25): The thing is, we are talking about the anti-war movement and civil rights, and between black males and females... BS (02:32:27): That is right, this is- SM (02:32:31): All of a sudden... BS (02:32:31): This is real rights. SM (02:32:32): [inaudible] But it came out nowhere. BS (02:32:35): Yeah. It seemed like it came from nowhere because it was- SM (02:32:37): And we are sitting there, what the hell are we here for? BS (02:32:39): Yeah. SM (02:32:40): Yeah, it is great that he is getting a PhD, but... BS (02:32:43): Yeah, but what does this mean to me? SM (02:32:44): Yeah and Dr. Johnson never brought it up again in any of the courses. BS (02:32:47): Yeah. SM (02:32:48): But he said, you just got an opportunity to meet this guy. I never knew what happened to him. BS (02:32:52): Yeah. Well, it was a new issue. And they could build, just as women built on... SM (02:32:57): I think it was Minnesota, University of Minnesota. BS (02:33:00): Yeah. SM (02:33:00): I think that is where Sarah Evans is from. BS (02:33:01): Yeah. SM (02:33:03): Or was from. Almost done here. BS (02:33:05): Yeah. Okay. SM (02:33:06): Just a few more names and then we are done. I often wondered what the AIDS crisis, if women affected the women in any way, the Women's Movement, the AIDS crisis. Because I have interviewed a lot... BS (02:33:19): Yeah. SM (02:33:19): Gay and lesbian leaders. BS (02:33:20): Yeah. SM (02:33:20): I interviewed Malcolm Boyd. BS (02:33:22): Yeah. SM (02:33:22): I have interviewed Cleve Jones and Tori Osborne and others like that. And they said that, in fact, two of them started crying because Reagan could not even mention the term AIDS for many, many years. BS (02:33:36): Yeah, that is true, I had forgotten that. SM (02:33:41): And the men... And I guess the question is, not many women died, but the question is, yes, women did die. BS (02:33:44): They did. And they still do. SM (02:33:45): Yeah. And the question is, did the AIDS crisis have any effect on the Women's Movement? I know I am throwing things out here, but... Because it was devastating in (19)83- BS (02:33:56): It has an effect in that because of the Women's Movement, anything else that is going on, you could say, "Does this have an impact on women or on a specific group of women?" And women do begin to raise this because all the attention is on men as if only men had AIDS. And so women do begin to raise this. And the kind of things that you end up with is in Africa, you have to educate women how to prevent AIDS when they are having sexual intercourse. SM (02:34:27): Right. BS (02:34:28): Otherwise, AIDS will keep spreading. And if you cannot get the men to do it, you can get the women. And ideally, you aim at both. But this is what has happened in a lot of federal policy programs, a lot of non-profit programs. And just in people's thinking. There are people who will say, "Does this have an impact on women?" Or, "What is the impact on women? Do we need to do something different for women? Are we including women?" And so that kind of impact is not really written about, but it is there. And the programs, and now I am talking about not AIDS, but aid programs in undeveloped countries is... The realization now is if you do not help women, you do not help the country. You cannot do only- SM (02:35:17): India is another country, yeah. BS (02:35:18): That is right. Yeah. India, Africa. SM (02:35:20): Yeah. BS (02:35:21): And it is, again, the Women's Movement has sensitized a lot of people who would not say they are part of the Women's Movement, but they will ask that question. What are we doing? They are looking at education, for example. And it turns out in every country, men have more education than women. Does not matter whether you are talking about PhDs or basic literacy. So if you want to start educating people, you got to look at everybody, not just boys. And if you look at girls in Africa, they get raped on their way walking to school. So some of them do not go to school. Or they do not have sanitary napkins, so they do not come to school when they have their periods. So you begin to look at education as not just, we need more schools and more teachers. What do we do about these kids who are dying to go to school? They really want to go, they walk five miles and they know they could be raped on the way. And so what do you do? Give them bicycles? Some people do that so they can get away faster. But still... Do we need to provide transportation? But you look at it very differently. And that is the legacy I think, of the Women's Movement and why this movement will not die. There is an ideology that is- SM (02:36:38): It is global. BS (02:36:38): It is global. SM (02:36:39): When I interviewed Sherilyn Bunch, that is what she said. BS (02:36:41): Yeah. SM (02:36:41): It is global. BS (02:36:41): Yes. She was one of the first people to recognize that. SM (02:36:45): She also went to Hanoi. BS (02:36:46): Yeah. SM (02:36:46): During the Vietnam War. BS (02:36:48): I know, I know. But I remember when she started working at writing about this and thinking about, that is really weird to think of it as global. But she is absolutely right. It is a global movement. And people have to pay attention to it because there is no way we can solve the world's problems unless women are involved. I mean, if we get out of Afghanistan, the women there will die. They are not allowed to go to school. No. And their lives are terrible. And I would love us to get out tomorrow, but I am torn because I say if we are not protecting the women, it is very close to slavery. SM (02:37:29): [inaudible] Eleanor Roosevelt... BS (02:37:35): We do. Yeah. SM (02:37:35): The last few. This is just the... I will read all these all at once here. BS (02:37:37): No, read them one at a time. SM (02:37:38): Okay. Well, George McGovern and Eugene McCarthy. I just knew, they were big names back then. BS (02:37:46): Yeah, they were big names. And I liked the two of them, and supported the two of them. They worked to make society better in many, many ways. They wanted it to be more transparent and more effective democracy. And a lot of people thought they were very radical. I do not know if they were or not. I did not. SM (02:38:01): Bobby Kennedy is another one there. BS (02:38:04): Yeah. I liked Bobby Kennedy. He... SM (02:38:08): Daniel Ellsberg and those Pentagon Papers. BS (02:38:11): Brave man to do what he did. SM (02:38:15): Have you seen the movie? BS (02:38:15): No. SM (02:38:15): The Most dangerous man in America? BS (02:38:16): No. But to do what he did took tremendous bravery. SM (02:38:20): Well, his wife plays an important role in his life. The one that he married right around the Pentagon. Papers time his second wife. BS (02:38:28): Yeah. Oh, I did not know that. SM (02:38:29): Oh, yeah. BS (02:38:29): Yeah- SM (02:38:30): Crucially without her, I do not think he would be here today. BS (02:38:34): If you have educated, strong women, you end up with educated strong men. SM (02:38:39): Well, I think she is the one that... BS (02:38:41): Yeah. SM (02:38:41): I do not really think he would be here today if it was not for her. BS (02:38:43): Interesting. I did not know that. Thank you. SM (02:38:45): Yeah. You see how much they were a team. BS (02:38:50): Yeah. Are we recording? SM (02:38:51): Yeah. We are recording right here. BS (02:38:52): Oh, right here. I am sorry. I looked around- SM (02:38:55): Yeah, because I ran out. BS (02:38:55): Sorry. I looked beyond it. SM (02:38:57): The Spiro Agnew. BS (02:39:02): Oh God. I actually voted for Spiro Agnew for governor in my state because the guy, the Democrat who was running against him was a racist. An absolute racist. So a lot of Democrats... It is unusual for Democrats vote for Republicans. SM (02:39:16): Do not let the world know that. BS (02:39:19): No, but we had to do it. I mean, the guy would have been even worse than Spiro Agnew. I think he was not a good person. He was caught taking bribe money in the White House. And I mean... SM (02:39:27): Unbelievable. BS (02:39:28): This is not also a very smart person to do that. SM (02:39:31): He could have been president. BS (02:39:32): He could have been. He came very close. Yeah. SM (02:39:36): Some of the women, Gloria at Steinem. BS (02:39:38): I admire Gloria Steinem enormously. We did not have in the Women's Movement, a leader in the sense that one person says everything and we all follow. It is not that organized. But he has been a very thoughtful person throughout. She is a very decent human being. She is very soft-spoken, and people really like her for that because we, she is not quote, abrasive. Or she is going to turn off people. She is very- Quote abrasive or going to turn off people. You are a very attractive woman and so forth, and a very wise person. SM (02:40:06): I tried to interview her, I did not get a response back. BS (02:40:10): She is a very wise woman. She really understands so many of the implications of the women's movement. And her idea with MS was absolutely brilliant because we were at a time where there is nothing being written about women. Serious stuff about women, occasionally they might cover something like the Miss America contest, but there were not thoughtful articles. There was no place for women to go and read these things. They are just beginning in the 1970s. SM (02:40:38): I remember the controversy between her and Jimmy Brown, the football player. Mr. Macho, during the movement. Shere Hite. BS (02:40:48): Shere Hite, she was a reporter? Was she the one who had the abortion? Who am I thinking of? SM (02:40:49): Shere Hite wrote books on women's issues. BS (02:40:57): She wrote something on sexuality. I think, I do not remember, enough. I know. I do not remember enough about her. SM (02:41:03): Betty Friedan? BS (02:41:05): Betty Friedan made an enormous contribution with the Feminine Mystique, there is no question. She gave women permission, as I said before, to be angry at their lives and to examine their lives. She was also an incredibly difficult person to work with. She really was. SM (02:41:25): I know that when I interviewed Charles Kaiser, who wrote 1968, said " I disliked that woman because she was homophobic." That came out of nowhere. BS (02:41:38): She might have been homophobic, early on she might have been, I do not know. I do not think she was later on, but she was difficult to work with and that is enough said. SM (02:41:44): Susan Brownmiller. BS (02:41:47): I do not think I agreed with everything, but I always liked reading people's stuff, even if I disagreed because it would make me think about it and sharpen some of my own. She is good. SM (02:42:00): Yeah, she felt strongly that the pornography issue that she wanted to introduce into the Women's movement, they did not care that much about it, so never became a big issue with the women. BS (02:42:11): It is not so much that the women's movement did not care about it, the women's movement is very amorphous. It includes everybody who thinks they support women to some degree. And probably Sarah Palin would say, she certainly says poor women, whatever. But there is no place that people take a stand and it is like a thousand committees, all of which have some interest in some issues, and the way an issue gets worked on is if enough people want to work on it. And it is not that there was a vote taken and everybody said, we are not going to work on this issue, it is not relevant. That is not what happened. It is just that people were busy with other issues, which they felt were more important. But it is not that the movement turned it down in any official sense, there is no official women's movement. There are groups of people who coalesce around different issues and a lot of people belong to more than one group where they work together with more groups. In the pornographic issue did not catch on, a lot of issues did not catch on. Or a lot of issues caught on in a very small way. So we have a small group of people working on- SM (02:43:30): I have interviewed so many people that one of the interviewees said to me, they said "When they go into the now office, it disappoints them today as opposed to in the (19)70s and the (19)80s. Because all you see is literature on AIDS, literature on sexually transmitted diseases," and what was the other one? "Abortion. And that is all you see, it is like where are the issues, where is the political issues on women's health issues?" BS (02:44:03): Where issues, lots of people on women's Health. SM (02:44:06): And where is the one about the big issue that is really lacking now? Cause my niece has a little baby and it has not been addressed by anyone, is childcare. Not caring in the workforce. Having a room so a mom can go and breastfeed her child without having go in a lady's room. BS (02:44:26): It is not that people do not care and there are people who support it, but there are not enough of them. And the people with childcare and every westernized country has federalized childcare of one sort or another. France, they even have subsidized infant care. I mean, two weeks after your baby's born, you can drop your kid off and they will take care of it. And they do not do it because women are working. They do it because they think children need this kind of development. They get better care and more complex environments than when the mother's home with them. Because she is busy doing other things. She is cleaning, she is cooking, she is shopping and childcare center. They are thinking of the child all day long anyway. But we do not have it because Nixon vetoed bill that would have given it to us. So we do not have it. The people who need it the most are the ones who would be able to work on it if they did not have children at the time. When you have preschool children, you are incredibly busy. I watched my two daughters with their children and both were working. And how hard it was, God forbid the babysitter had a cold. I mean not even seriously ill, but has a cold for a few days. Who comes to take care of your child when you have to be in court that afternoon if you were an attorney or my daughter who is a teacher and has to find a substitute because yes, the kid's babysitter does not show or whatever, happens. And so then by the time they are a little freer, they do not need it as much. It was very hard to get a constituency on that issue. Everybody knows it is important. It is not that they do not care, but for anybody to work on any of these issues, you need some warm bodies. There is no official decision. I mean, now might have decided now would be happy to work on a lot of issues. If five people came in tomorrow and said, we would love to work on pornography, I am sure they would welcome. And they say, and we have a budget of $5,000, week and a half. We pulled some money and we want to write a book or a poster or whatever, or do some research. I do not think now would turn them away. If they, they would work out an agreement. They would not turn them away if they were against looking at that. If they do not have the staff, they do not have the time, they do not have the money. And you got to have that to work on issues. And so sometimes you pick out what is the most visible abortion is. SM (02:46:47): See you are, you are really saying something that is very important seems to be lost. And when people make general statements like the conservatives or the neocons that all the problems that America today can go back to the (19)60s and they blame it all on the drug culture, the sexual- BS (02:47:07): Well, they see those as the major problems. SM (02:47:09): That the word that comes up here is context. There is context to everything. BS (02:47:15): Yeah. SM (02:47:16): And you need to know that nothing is that simple. There is context. So the last ones are going to be Bella Abzug. BS (02:47:30): Loved her. Also, hard to work with, but I absolutely loved her because she continued to do good stuff. She bothered a lot of people because of her style before she got sex discrimination into every bill. And anytime we needed Bella Abzug to support anything, whether it was to get her room in the capitol for reception for something or other, or for her to sponsor a bill or to speak on the floor or to send out a letter to other people, she never said no. That I know of. She, maybe she did, but- SM (02:47:58): She was a civil rights lawyer. BS (02:48:02): She was a civil rights lawyer. And she knew politics or she understood. SM (02:48:04): She was sconce Borough boys, was not her. She- BS (02:48:06): Yeah. Yeah. She was involved early, early, early on. She was involved in civil rights and had a continued interest in civil rights. SM (02:48:15): See, I do not think a lot of people know that. It is context again. They know about her as a congresswoman. They do not know about before congress. BS (02:48:21): Unless you read a bibliography, you are not going to know that. I have forgotten that. But I know what I am, when read the bibliography, it came back to me. But when you and I were talking, I was not thinking of- SM (02:48:29): I know that everybody know that lived in New York said that a lot of people did not like her because she was very loud. BS (02:48:39): She was loud. She got things done. SM (02:48:39): But she was there for the people and she was on the streets. And she went and talked to the people. BS (02:48:40): Absolutely. SM (02:48:41): And many people said they would be walking down New York City and was Bella. BS (02:48:45): Yeah, she was always there. She was always there. SM (02:48:49): Jermaine Greer. BS (02:48:51): Yes. SM (02:48:51): Who has written some. BS (02:48:52): I read a book. I liked her book. Great. I am sure it had a bigger influence in Australia than here. SM (02:48:59): Robin Morgan. BS (02:49:01): Robin Morgan. Robin Morgan still writes. I like some of her writing, some I disagree with. SM (02:49:07): Susan Saluti. BS (02:49:08): Susan Saluti. She is backlash? SM (02:49:12): She is a more recent one. BS (02:49:13): Backlash book? SM (02:49:15): Yeah. BS (02:49:15): She is. She is good. SM (02:49:16): She is smarter than a whip. BS (02:49:17): She is smarter than a whip. SM (02:49:17): I have seen her on TV. BS (02:49:19): And the backlash is real. There is backlash. There are a lot of people who would like to see women go right back to the kitchen. SM (02:49:24): Katherine McKinnon. BS (02:49:26): She is also very good. She did a lot of good early, early thinking on sexual harassment and other legal issues. SM (02:49:34): I want to interview her, but she is too busy. BS (02:49:35): Yeah, she is busy. She is crazy. SM (02:49:37): And Carol Gilligan. BS (02:49:39): Carol. Carol Gilligan. And I have some problems with, because she believes strongly that women have different learning styles. And I am not sure that they do. Because I do not think it is true of all women, any more than I think it is true of all. Men have different one. I think it may be true for a lot of people. I am continually very concerned about what the Bush administration did by allowing single-sex classes and single-sex schools. They changed the regulation of Title ix, which was set up so we would have very few sexual segregation in schools. And the Bush people came up with a new regulation. So we now have more single sex schools than we have had before. And they are based largely on stereotypes and not on research. Now, I do not know if they are using Gilligan's research, but they could easily say they do say women need cooperative learning and so forth and so on. And I really think people need to learn how to be cooperative and learn how to be competitive, to have skills in both areas rather than in just one. So I admire some of her work and I agree with a lot of her work, but I am a little concerned about that. SM (02:50:53): I like Sarah Evans. I think her writing is unbelievable. I interviewed her. BS (02:50:57): Yeah. Who is Sarah Evans? SM (02:50:59): She wrote women's books on the women's movement. She is the University of Minnesota retired. She is a friend. She is with Rosalind Petchesky and Charlotte Bunch. BS (02:51:11): Charlotte Bunch. SM (02:51:13): And Rosalyn Baxandall, who was actually a friend of Carol BS (02:51:24): You know more than I do. SM (02:51:26): And of course Susan Sontag, she is not a, I do not know what you called it her, but she has a written great essays. BS (02:51:35): Yes-yes-yes. SM (02:51:35): She died recently. But. BS (02:51:36): She is good. You know what has happened, this is what I am thinking. SM (02:51:44): What? BS (02:51:45): I am remembering, my kids, when I first get interested in women's issues in the Washington Post, which we get every day at that time. There are no articles about women except fashion and keeping your husband happy and cooking and taking good care of children, housework. And when there is a real article about women and their lives and somewhere, my kids come running upstairs because they eat breakfast before me and they read paper records. They come running up to tell me. And because it is so rare. And at that point, I am buying books about women and I am saying to myself, I will buy every book that is published and I will have a nice library on women. And so I have this nice little library, but I got to stop because the amount of stuff that is been written about women, nobody could buy all the books. And even a library could not buy all the books that are published about women in a single year. That is just too much. Even a woman's library would not be buying every book. SM (02:52:42): Well, the book that would be really good to read is Sarah Evans. Habits of The Heart. BS (02:52:47): Habits of the Heart. SM (02:52:48): I just think she is a real good writer. And she just retired as a professor at the University of Minnesota. I did not think I was going to get her because she is retired, but she was in this group with Charlotte Bunch and Charlotte had recommended that you try to get ahold of her. So I did. And Rosalyn Baxandall is, she was the one that was with Carol Haney, two of the four people who put up the banner in 1968 in Atlantic City. Oh, I did not know that. She teaches at Old Westbury. SUNY Old Westbury. BS (02:53:24): Yeah. SM (02:53:26): Last two questions. Are universities afraid of activism today? Volunteerism is obviously very popular, has been for over 20, 25 years. And most students are involved in volunteer work required in fraternities and sororities and so forth. But I have gotten a sense from my experiences that universities do not like that term activism because it brings back memories. Memories- BS (02:53:51): Of the (19)60s. SM (02:53:51): The (19)60s. BS (02:53:52): Taking over. SM (02:53:54): Disruption of classes, a more radical type of a mentality. And that is my perception. And I am actually going to send my introduction and I will take the heat for it, but I was worked in higher education for 30 years. BS (02:54:12): I think it depends on your definition of activism. If to the extent that activism means kid state for students taking over the president's office, nobody wants that. SM (02:54:22): No. BS (02:54:24): And unless you define activism, because that is one form. SM (02:54:27): Well, that is the lesson that students of the (19)60s should be teaching students today is that you do not do that because it only hurts your message, hurts your cause. BS (02:54:36): Except every now and then they did pay attention. But it is not a long-range strategy. It is a one issue strategy one time. But if that is what you mean by activism, that worries colleges, nasty people can get hurt. It is against fire regulations. I mean, there are all kinds of worries about- SM (02:54:57): I think what I am referring to is the right of assembly. Again, the free speech will the right of assembly to speak, not disrupt classes. I think most students realize they do not want to disrupt classes, not disrupt classes, but the protest on the war in Iraq protest on anything you want to, and what has happened at universities today, they are designating these little spaces for people to, you can protest here. Well, if Mario Savio and the people were around from that era, you have got to be kidding me. I got to go in front of the, this particular, this little square is the only place I can, so there is some things happening here that are really fishy. BS (02:55:42): Yeah, I have not seen this. And my contact with most colleges is a one-time visit. SM (02:55:48): Right. BS (02:55:49): And I read the Chronicle. SM (02:55:51): I have not been reading that lately. I did for a while, but I am reading books now. BS (02:55:56): Well I, well, I get it because I am still working directly with colleges. And I think people generally, most of us like things as they are. And if you are dissatisfied, you want to shake up the boat and how much schools will tolerate this. On the other hand, academics are very protective of academic freedom and the freedom of speech. And you do get people who really upset other people coming to campus. I mean, you get Palestinians coming to campus and saying dreadful things and often untrue things, but they have a right to say what they have to say. And you have people opposed to the war or supporting the war. And schools cannot discourage that and take great pride. And they often are in a position where they have to allow people they totally disagree with, but you cannot keep them off campus. And they understand under the rubric of academic freedom, which only applies across to professors, but they understand the needed freedom of speech. Certainly. So I do not see the fear of activism. I think they do not want the (19)60s to come back with people breaking windows, climbing into offices, having bombs like in Minnesota, which killed people. Coburn died. SM (02:57:16): That was Wisconsin. Yeah. BS (02:57:16): Wisconsin, you are right. Was not Minnesota. I am sorry. I am from New York these middle states all somewhat similar, but I think people worry about that kind of thing and do not want that to return because there are real safety issues here. SM (02:57:31): We had activist days on our campus that our department started and we had Tom Hayden, Daniel Berrigan, we had Philip Berrigan, we had- BS (02:57:42): Yeah. Good people. SM (02:57:42): -Torie Osborn. BS (02:57:43): Shake people up. SM (02:57:44): We had Alice Kesler Harris and Morne Pretorius from South Africa. And we also did the readings of Howard Zen and I was asked to stop them. BS (02:57:57): Oh, to stop them? SM (02:57:58): Yeah. To stop the active state. BS (02:58:01): Well, I think you would still find some people who would ask you to do that. I do not think they are all gone and that they are all happy with- SM (02:58:08): I think they were worried that it was sending the wrong message or whatever it might be. BS (02:58:13): But they cannot stop you though. SM (02:58:15): Well, no. They- BS (02:58:15): They pay a price for it. SM (02:58:17): Well, but they told me as an administrator that since your department is doing them, and even though you are getting other departments to sponsor the speakers, reception is that you are in charge of them. And so you must end them. Yeah. BS (02:58:32): I think that would still happen to some degree, because you can use that if people work for you. The students do not work for the college and you cannot expel them for that reason. So they are still controlled, particularly the administrators for the faculty, it is easier for them to do what they want. Yeah, because they have tenure. SM (02:58:49): Yeah. Administrators is a little tough. BS (02:58:53): Yeah. Well, yeah. If not, you do not have tenure as an administrator, so they are really saying the subtext of what they said is either cut it out or leave. SM (02:59:05): They did not say that. BS (02:59:06): They do not say it. But that is the subtext. SM (02:59:08): And they were packed. BS (02:59:09): Yeah. SM (02:59:09): We were getting attendance like crazy. BS (02:59:12): Yeah. And you should. And college is supposed to be where we learn different things about different points of view. SM (02:59:21): The conservatives are Barry Goldwater obviously, and Bill Buckley were major conservatives for the (19)60s generation. But then you have today people like Anne Colter and Michelle Mulkin who are- BS (02:59:34): Yeah, we do have women commentators. SM (02:59:36): Yeah, commentators who are really popular on college campuses. And they are kind of like the Phyllis Schlafly's of yester year, so to speak. What are your thoughts on the conservatives? The conservatives overall? Just your thoughts on the them. BS (02:59:51): I am clearly not a conservative. SM (02:59:53): Yeah. BS (02:59:53): As you have probably noticed. SM (02:59:55): And these people are very critical of probably the women's movement. BS (03:00:01): Some of their, they tend to be more critical in terms of pro-choice issues. I do not think I have heard them say, "Let us get rid of Title IX." They may have concerns about men's athletics, but those are financial decisions, not legal issues. When schools get rid of a particular, they can choose to do whatever they want as long as they have equal equitable opportunities for men and women. And if they want to have a football team with over a hundred slots on it, you know, you have got to have, have proportional opportunities for women. SM (03:00:36): Right. BS (03:00:41): But I am just thinking with the abortion issue is an important one. None of these women are saying women should be staying home and not working. And I think many of them recognize they would not be where they were, where they are, if it were not for the women's movement. They may not understand some of the basic underlying tenets of the women's movement in terms of its egalitarianism and in terms of opportunities and in terms of being good on gay issues and looking at the plight of immigrant women and all of those things. Some of the political issues they may not side on all of them, but I am just thinking because I have not thought this through before. SM (03:01:27): Yeah. Bay Bucannon is in that group too. Bay Bucannon, Michelle Easton. BS (03:01:33): Michelle, I have seen. SM (03:01:33): Michelle is nice. BS (03:01:36): I have seen her and I have seen Walter. SM (03:01:36): And her husband. Ron Robinson is the Young America Foundation. BS (03:01:39): Yeah. But the abortion issue is a very powerful issue. But if you put that one aside, I do not think they are that much against women's issues. If you define women's issues as sexual harassment and equal opportunity and schools and in employment and things like that. I think they know that they would not have the jobs they have. I am sure they have- SM (03:02:06): They have issues with women's studies and things like that. BS (03:02:09): Women's studies. Yeah. Well, because they do not know the women's history. SM (03:02:12): This is it. BS (03:02:13): They do not know women's history. SM (03:02:15): But the presidents, again, I made reference to them, but those presidents between Truman, Obama, what of which presence do you feel have been most supportive of women's issues? Not only what may only have been through their- BS (03:02:31): Probably Clinton. SM (03:02:33): Not through their deeds, through their actions, through their legislation they pushed, maybe it was not passed, but that they truly cared about women. BS (03:02:42): I think Clinton probably cares the most. Carter seemed to be quite good on a number of these issues as well. Nixon was not very good, but he did not veto Title IX either. And he made some interesting decisions. The White House had some decisions that granted, he may have to stop paying attention to some of these decisions because of Watergate. But there was a decision made at the White House is should Title IX cover athletics? There is no mention of athletics, although it says it covers everything. But the White House had to make a decision in terms of the regulation, will it cover athletics or just say nothing? And they decided to cover athletics. And I met with someone, myself and another woman met with the person who was handling that, who fortunately just had a baby girl. But Nixon had the final say. I also filed charges under this executive order. The Nixon administration amended that order to include affirmative action. Affirmative action does not start with the Democrats. It starts with the Republicans. And in fact, this is a lovely story, the President of Columbia University is asked by the head of the office of Federal Contract Compliance, who is giving a speech or visiting with somehow, or he is talking to, this is the- SM (03:04:03): Current president. No- BS (03:04:07): No-no-no. This- SM (03:04:07): Is Grayson Kirk. BS (03:04:08): This is during the no-no-no-no-no. Nixon days. Nixon. Nixon. This is, I remember I am a Democrat, but this is Nixon. Yeah. Nixon makes a decision. So I am going to have to make that decision. Should they be doing affirmative action with colleges and universities? Because the executive order is set up by Johnson and his predecessors, because there are several, but get a little better over time is set up really for contractors. And when they are thinking contractors, they are thinking construction contracts, ship building contracts. They are not thinking of colleges having contracts. Was not intended for that. But it is not written that way. But the intent was to go after the construction jobs because that is where the blacks could get hired, hired. So there, now I come filing all these charges. I filed over 250 of them and probably one another, a hundred or so that others did. And the issue is, what do we do about colleges and universities? Do they get affirmative action requirements too? And Nixon's White House made the decision, "yes", fast forwards to Columbia University, president of Columbia University is talking to head of affirmative action or office facility. Oh, I got to find out who that was. I have it at home. But in any event- SM (03:05:26): The president? BS (03:05:27): The President of Columbia. SM (03:05:27): I think it is Grayson Kirk. BS (03:05:29): I am not sure I can find out, but I love the story. Does not matter who it is. Okay. And this person who is working for the government says, "So how are you doing, Mr. President of Columbia University, how you doing on affirmative action?" And he says, "We are doing just fine. We disappointed the first black and the first woman to our law school." And you know who that first woman was? SM (03:05:56): To Columbia? Well, it is not Hillary. She went to Yale. BS (03:06:01): No, it is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. SM (03:06:03): Oh, really? BS (03:06:04): Yes. Is not that a fabulous story? SM (03:06:07): That is a great story. See, that is a magic moment. Yeah. That is one of those magic moments. BS (03:06:12): Oh, okay. Well if you use it, I will find out. The president and I have the quote posted. SM (03:06:16): Kirk may have left after that because he was pressured to leave because of the student protest. BS (03:06:23): It was an interview with Ruth Bader Ginsburg within the past year or so on the New York Times Magazine section. And I cut it out and I gave it to the guy at the office of Federal Contract Compliance, who gave me all the ideas of how I should file these things. And I sent it to him and I said, "Vince," his name is Vincent Macaluso. So I said, "Vince, you did this." SM (03:06:46): What do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation when, well, I mentioned that the civil war generation, that guy who was in 1924 was the last one who actually fought in the battle, any battle of the Civil War. What do you think the history books, the sociology books will say about this generation that grew up after World War ii, whether it be to the women boomers or the male boomers to the 74 million? Because they still have 20 years of life. They are only in 64. BS (03:07:20): Until their (19)80s. SM (03:07:21): So they still got a fourth of their life still ahead of them. BS (03:07:24): Yeah. SM (03:07:26): But do you think, when do you think? There we go. BS (03:07:33): Yeah, I would like to say that I really do not have a clue. I think they had an impact on loosening up society. Society was still dealing with a lot of rigidity from the past. And we still have some of those rigidities, but they did loosen up. They questioned a lot of things and people questioned, they heard the question raised, you have to think about it even if you do not do anything about it. And I think that may be part of their legacy. If they shook things up. They said, we do not like the way this is. We do not like the president of our college treats, whatever. And nobody maybe had ever thought of that before or noticed if before. And I think they were very good in raising new issues that people had not bought up. At least the radical part of the mover did. On a more superficial level they certainly got rid of the way people dressed. I watched in this building, which I came to in 1990, and I wore pantsuit every day. And everybody was dressed and men were dressed in suits and women were dressed very nicely. Now you go in the elevator and it is just a few men dressed in a suit. And they are the lawyers or the realtors. Everybody else was wearing jeans or I- SM (03:08:56): I saw a guy came in here. I think he was a lawyer from his, and he was in shorts. He just done a run around town. He had pony tail. He was sweating. BS (03:09:01): In this office or in the building? SM (03:09:01): No, I think it was on two floors up or one floor up. BS (03:09:08): Oh, okay. Yeah-yeah. No, they are like, it is perfectly acceptable to come that way to work. I mean, I get dressed if I am doing something really, I do not want to say this was not professional, but I am talking professional organization or I do not know what the word would be. But I felt comfortable enough. I said, if you no professional, I do not have to get dressed. That is a huge thing actually. I mean, it sounds like its superficial dress, but it tells you a lot about where this is what the society feels about how you announce yourself to other people. Because that is what clothing is. It says, look who I am. And people's way of dressing is more egalitarian. And to the extent that the civil rights movement was part of the boomers, not the only thing going on, but the boomers were a part of it. Not the civil rights were part of boomers with the other direction. And that women were part of the women's movement from the boomers. Some of the boomers were in the women's movement. I mean, and you can find other areas like that where the boomers had a lasting effect. The women, oncologists, this is the reason we were going talk about this. Young colleges were more organized in terms of women's issues than any place else in this society. Because you have a lot of young people who have time on their hands. And a lot of them, not all of them, are interested in social issues. And you could find discrimination very easily in the college. The women in Michigan becomes a public issue to some degree when they cannot take this course in juvenile delinquency because they will have to deal with male students. So that is very visible when you hear about this. And finally, once the lawyers get involved, they make an announcement it is time change that. So you have people who are very aware and are raising these issues, and there are enough issues to raise at that point. That very can become very visible once you notice them. SM (03:11:03): And those issues back in the (19)60s now when students do not have as much time, because they work. BS (03:11:09): That is right they work. Some of them work harder, they work physically, they have other jobs work. SM (03:11:13): And a lot of them did not work back when I was in school. BS (03:11:16): That is true. Yeah. SM (03:11:17): Any other thoughts? I know we have covered just about everything. BS (03:11:20): Well, yeah, I think we have covered enough. SM (03:11:24): Yeah. BS (03:11:24): But I realize I am not a- the boomer generation. My kids are. SM (03:11:28): One third of my interviewees have been boomers, but they- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bernice Sandler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sandler, Bernice Resnick ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Women's rights—United States; Human rights workers; United States.--Education Amendments of 1972.--Title IX; Sandler, Bernice Resnick--Interviews Description An account of the resource Bernice Sandler is an educator, consultant, and women's rights activist, best known for being instrumental in the creation of Title IX. She has received numerous awards and honors for her work on women’s rights and was inducted into the Maryland Women's Hall of Fame And the National Women's Hall of Fame. Dr. Sandler currently acts as a Senior Scholar at the Women’s Research and Education Institute in Washington, DC Sandler received her Master's degree of Clinical and School Psychology from the City College of New York and her Ed.D. from the University of Maryland in Counseling and Personnel Services. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-10-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.149a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.149b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 191:46 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/334827401a45e221446f14b32fc959f1.jpeg 83fe4dc791c3a34e143f9a711354df7d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2168a95a663f9ced002e199d99e4889f.mp3 b43bd83558187ec001a4199b90cda78a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan (Susan Lisa) Rosenberg, 1955- Date of Interview 2011-05-31 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 224:48 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Susan Rosenberg is a far-left revolutionary, educator, author and advocate for social justice and prisoners' rights. She was active in many radical movements and she lived as a fugitive for several years. She was eventually caught and sentenced to 58 years in prison. While in prison, she became a poet, author and AIDS activist. After her release, she continued her work as an anti-prison activist, and taught literature at various colleges. Rosenburg attended the progressive Walden School and later went to Barnard College.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Susan Rosenberg is a far-left revolutionary, educator, author and advocate for social justice and prisoners' rights. She was active in many radical movements and she lived as a fugitive for several years. She was eventually caught and sentenced to 58 years in prison. While in prison, she became a poet, author and AIDS activist. After her release, she continued her work as an anti-prison activist and taught literature at various colleges. Rosenburg attended the progressive Walden School and later went to Barnard College.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;An American Radical: A Political Prisoner in My Own Country; Black Panthers; Attica Prison riot; The Midnight Special(newsletter); Abu Ghraib prison; Vietnam War; Generations; Cold War; Anti-War Movement; McCarthyism; Women's Rights Movement.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">An American Radical: A Political Prisoner in My Own Country; Black Panthers; Attica Prison riot; The Midnight Special(newsletter); Abu Ghraib prison; Vietnam War; Generations; Cold War; Anti-War Movement; McCarthyism; Women's Rights Movement.</span> Subject LCSH Left-wing extremists; Social justice; Civil rights workers; Political activists--United States; Prisoners—Civil rights; Rosenberg, Susan (Susan Lisa), 1955--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Susan Rosenberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rosenberg, Susan (Susan Lisa), 1955- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Left-wing extremists; Social justice; Civil rights workers; Political activists--United States; Prisoners—Civil rights; Rosenberg, Susan (Susan Lisa), 1955--Interviews Description An account of the resource Susan Rosenberg is a far-left revolutionary, educator, author and advocate for social justice and prisoners' rights. She was active in many radical movements and she lived as a fugitive for several years. She was eventually caught and sentenced to 58 years in prison. While in prison, she became a poet, author and AIDS activist. After her release, she continued her work as an anti-prison activist and taught literature at various colleges. Rosenburg attended the progressive Walden School and later went to Barnard College. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-05-31 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.150a: McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.150b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 224:48 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cb817d78ffad1ed070a2a06df74efcbd.jpg c3b1365c25f20c00222cff01dae49b11 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b279253da26ae698cbbb1355b798aaa5.mp3 19a26828668f1d7154aa5cb3f0aa5bc5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Smith, 1945-2004 Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 94:27 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Jack Smith (1945-2004) was an Emmy Award-Winning former correspondent for ABC News. Smith is known for reporting on the Iran-Contra affair, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and technology in the Silicon Valley. He received Bachelor's degrees from Carnegie Mellon University in 1971 and from Oxford University in 1974.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13059,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Jack Smith (1945-2004) was an Emmy Award-Winning former correspondent for ABC News. Smith is known for reporting on the Iran-Contra affair, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and technology in the Silicon Valley. He received Bachelor's degrees from Carnegie Mellon University in 1971 and from Oxford University in 1974.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Sexual revolution; College; Counterculture; Labor union; Flat wages; VISTA; End of Vietnam War; Self-indulgence; Consumer Movement; Jane Fonda; Vietnam Memorial.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Baby boom generation; Sexual revolution; College; Counterculture; Labor union; Flat wages; VISTA; End of Vietnam War; Self-indulgence; Consumer Movement; Jane Fonda; Vietnam Memorial.</span> Subject LCSH Reporters and reporting; ABC News; Smith, Jack, 1945-2004--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Smith Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, Jack, 1945-2004 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Reporters and reporting; ABC News; Smith, Jack, 1945-2004--Interviews Description An account of the resource Jack Smith (1945-2004) was an Emmy Award-Winning former correspondent for ABC News. Smith is known for reporting on the Iran-Contra affair, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and technology in the Silicon Valley. He received Bachelor's degrees from Carnegie Mellon University in 1971 and from Oxford University in 1974. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.151a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.151a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 94:27 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7d02ce8853c1b77aa304b2e8aa4299aa.jpg a555dffc71217e18c54e15e305a7821b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a8cca57341ece4caa22dfde32ba7ec84.mp3 5bd492ceb0a679a785e09994e7266c13 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jan C. Scruggs Date of Interview 2011-11-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 87:09 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Jan Scruggs is a United States Army veteran who founded the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund and was the President of the foundation until 2015. He received the Purple Heart Medal for wounds received in combat, and was awarded three Army Commendation Medal, with 'Valor' device, along with the medal for Valor. After leaving the army, Scruggs received his Bachelor's degree from American University and his Master's degree in psychology, researching post-traumatic stress disorder.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Jan Scruggs is a United States Army veteran who founded the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund and was the President of the foundation until 2015. He received the Purple Heart Medal for wounds received in combat and was awarded three Army Commendation Medal, with 'Valor' device, along with the medal for Valor. After leaving the army, Scruggs received his Bachelor's degree from American University and his Master's degree in psychology, researching post-traumatic stress disorder.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Affirmative Action; Vietnam Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Millennial generation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Affirmative Action; Vietnam Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Millennial generation.</span> Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund; Military decorations—United States; Scruggs, Jan C.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jan Scruggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Scruggs, Jan C. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund; Military decorations—United States; Scruggs, Jan C.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Jan Scruggs is a United States Army veteran who founded the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund and was the President of the foundation until 2015. He received the Purple Heart Medal for wounds received in combat and was awarded three Army Commendation Medal, with 'Valor' device, along with the medal for Valor. After leaving the army, Scruggs received his Bachelor's degree from American University and his Master's degree in psychology, researching post-traumatic stress disorder. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-26 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.153 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 87:09 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/01150855113997bf9018c2f0c2f0d325.jpg d425b9622b3a34732997ed00e2282e76 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ad26895d299177cca24c7cac26baae62.mp3 8c2f702375b069d8a4ee27fb82b97b51 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thị Kim Phúc Phan, 1963- Date of Interview 2010-10-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 76:11 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Baby boom generation; Christianity; Forgiving the US; Vietnam War Victim; Nineteen sixties; Kim Foundation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Baby boom generation; Christianity; Forgiving the US; Vietnam War Victim; Nineteen sixties; Kim Foundation.</span> Subject LCSH Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Photographs; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kim Phuc Description An account of the resource Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Photographs; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-10-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.156a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.156b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 76:11 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bf6fe9a14b3e9ff7bb04d6715be41410.jpg 5f73a834a7256962bc0d8baefc49b31c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a22321886af954a0360ac5e152a7d065.mp3 2a991d2b5d97e1d420ea5948cd5ee976 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roz B. (Roz Berkman) Payne, 1940- Date of Interview 2010-10-05 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 144:28 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Roz Payne is an educator, activist, and founding member of an antiwar filmmakers group called Newsreel. She released a 12-hour DVD set titled What We Want, What We Believe on the Black Panthers. She has a Bachelor's degree from UCLA.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Roz Payne is an educator, activist, and founding member of an antiwar filmmakers group called Newsreel. She released a 12-hour DVD set titled <em>What We Want, What We Believe</em> on the Black Panthers. She has a Bachelor's degree from UCLA.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Black Panthers; Nineteen sixties; Activism; Student Protests; Burning of Bank of America (1970).&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Baby boom generation; Black Panthers; Nineteen sixties; Activism; Student Protests; Burning of Bank of America (1970).</span> Subject LCSH Newsreel (Firm); Political activists--United States; Payne, Roz B. (Roz Berkman), 1940--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Roz Payne Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 5 October 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: Alrighty. RP: So, what do you actually teach? What class is it? SM: Actually, I retired. RP: Oh, okay. SM: I left the university a year ago in March to work on this book because I could never really... I was too busy. I was the director of student programming co-curricular programs, and I was at the university six days a week, and I just had no time. I have been working out– RP: [inaudible] At the same university? SM: I was at the Westchester University for 22 years. Then I was at Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia for four. I worked at Ohio University for four years, and then I was out in San Francisco, the Bay Area for six years. I actually was hired at Berkeley, and they froze me out after I was hired. Really frustrated me. So I ended up starting my own entertainment business out there and working all different kinds of jobs. But I had an entertainment business until I was able to come back into higher education. RP: Entertainment. SM: Huh? RP: What kind of entertainment? SM: Oh, it was basically San Francisco [inaudible]. SM: Ask my first question. RP: Yep, go for it. SM: Yep. Could you talk about your early experiences in your background, your growing up years, where you grew up, the influence of your parents and teachers, or any role models who inspire you to become who you are? RP: Okay. That is a big story. So you might also, let me just say one thing. You should go to my website. Did I send it? SM: I have read it. RP: Because there is in the family section, some photographs from that period of time. And some of them, one of them is specifically my mother getting arrested, which describes my childhood. SM: I saw that. I saw that. RP: So anyway, I grew up with ... I was born in Patterson, New Jersey. Allen Ginsburg lived a block from us and our parents are friends. And he used to occasionally watch me if my mother ran to the store or something. He was a little older than I was. I do not have any memory of it. I just remember my mother talking about it. But later on when we met, he stayed at my house one night and we went through that whole history. It was really interesting. So my parents were radicals. My father, my mother came from Poland, and she began working in the textile mills in Lawrence, Massachusetts. And she was very active in unions, and she was one of the leaders. What happened is a lot of textile unions in New Jersey, in Lawrence, and usually one would go out and strike, then everybody would go to another mill and get a job because they needed money and they never could have a general strike. Well, she helped organize a very large general strike with some other people. And I have pictures of her getting arrested from that, which are also my website, which I found in old newspapers and stuff. And my father also was a radical. He and his friend Nick San Tangelo, my father was Italian. My mother was Polish Jewish. And my father's whole family, parents came from Italy in the mountains, close to maybe two hours from Naples. I went and visited there once. And there's a church at the top of the hill in the village that says, "In honor of General Lismo Christiano." Christiano was my maiden name who helped Napoleon. And that is why everybody there has blue eyes. SM: Oh, wow. RP: So, my father was a radical in New Jersey. My mother was a radical, in Lawrence, Mass. And my mother spent about two years in jail from getting arrested. And they held her for deportation because she was born in Poland and had never gotten her citizenship papers. So, they tried to return her to Poland, but it did not work out because the borders changed in those days. Where she came from was not exactly in the right place or something like that. And then eventually my mother moved when she got out. She went to a hiking nature club overnight place in New Jersey where she met my father. It was called The Nature Friends. And the Nature Friends came out of Germany, and it was a place for people, workers mainly, not rich people that had country homes. But workers could go and they would have big lodges and communal kitchens, and it would be a place for workers to be able to enjoy nature. And they met there, and there was a pond there. I have pictures of myself when I was a little kid in the pond in the buildings. I actually went back and visited, and it still exists, by the way. When I went up to the Matterhorn a number of years ago, they have a sign with the N and the F, the F coming out of the back part of the N. And they have clubhouses all over the world. But I kept up my membership all these years so you can go. And Hitler put them on the undesirable list and was going to kill everybody because they were socialists basically. SM: Wow. RP: So that is what I grew up with. I grew up and my parents moved at some point. Well, we were in Patterson and all my father's family still remained in New Jersey. He was the only, he was the rebel and he left. My mother's family was in LA, so when I was four, they went across country and they went to live in LA. And I went to LA High School, I went to grammar school there. I went to LA High School, I went to UCLA. I went a year before UCLA to Santa Barbara. I did not exactly like it, particularly. I liked UCLA. And I graduated from UCLA in (19)62. And I was going to be an art teacher. I wanted to do art. And let us see what happened? Oh, my high school boyfriend remained to be my college boyfriend. And right after I graduated, we got married. His name was Arnold Payne. And he was a year ahead of me and he was going to Columbia University for graduate school. And so we got married and I moved. I went out to New York to live in New York with him. And let us see. My early days of political activity, by the way, since my mother was ... All those years that I grew up, my mother was held for deportation. And they had a big problem in trying to deport her after that. She was held in jail for that long time in Lawrence. They tried to deport her, but somehow the borders got changed between Poland and other countries and the papers were not ... They could not do it. There's some technological reason, and I cannot remember now what that reason was. And so she was held while I was growing up for deportation. So during my entire growing up, probably every three or four months, the FBI would come to my door and knock on the door. My mother had instructed me, just call her, close the door and do not let them in and call her. And then she would go outside and talk to them. And so, we were... Go outside and talk to them. And so, we were always going to these radical parties growing up, of the Hollywood Ten people and-and a lot of radical lawyers. People would bring my parents new political newspapers in brown paper bags. And I went to special schools at times or camps where with a lot of the Hollywood Ten kids. So, it was like people that I did not have to hide anything. The kids that I went to, like LA High school and stuff, I never talked about my political part, of that part of my life with them. And I learned not to cross picket lines. There was a group that sold, it was called Pep Boys, Manny, Moe and Jack was the name of this place that sold car repair material. SM: They are all over the country today. RP: Yeah. It was a big chain. There was a strike there and we were never allowed to go into that store. I remember things like that that happened. And my parents were not religious. My father grew up Italian Catholic. My mother grew up Jewish Polish. And so we would go to my mother's family for the Jewish holidays and eat and celebrate them. And then we always had a Christmas tree. We always had a lot of parties and lots of people in the house, in and out. And I used to take off for Jewish holidays. I would go to school the first day and then take off a second day to hang out with my friends or something. Right. It was like we were never religious, but I made use of the holidays so I did not have to go to school. SM: Was that experience of growing up in the (19)50s there and you saw what was going on with the Hollywood Ten, you saw what happened in Germany. Was there anything of those experiences growing up as a kid that got you interested in civil rights? One of the things that I have asked many people in the interview process, many of them were red diaper babies and they said their parents were communists because of the fact that the Communist party was the only one that showed any kind of empathy toward people of color, particularly African American. RP: Might be true. But also my mother especially was very strong about people of color. And for example, when Emmett Till got killed, I was 13 at the time, I believe, and there was a memorial service in downtown Los Angeles. My mother took me to it. We were the only white people. It was in a very old building with a lot of balconies. I remember going up, we were sitting in the very top part and we were the only white people in the entire building that I remember. My mother had black friends and I had black friends and I had Japanese friends. I had a Japanese friend in grammar school who had been sent away to one of those internment camps where they put all the Japanese in the desert. She was there for a while. SM: Internment camps, yeah. RP: Yeah. Linda Fukuyama. And also, by the way, I just read a book summer, my Italian relatives have a house in Acapulco for the winter they use. And I went down there and somebody had left this book about Italian internment camps. Did you ever hear that? SM: No. RP: Oh my God, you should see how many there were. When you went down to the wharf in San Francisco, the first people they picked up were the fishermen who had the boats in San Francisco. They picked them up first and then they picked up a lot of these truck farmers, Italians. What an incredible story about these guys. SM: What year was that? RP: It was the same time, it was the Japanese were being picked up and the Italians were being picked up. SM: Oh my gosh. RP: My cousin gave me ... My cousins that are there, they're not political at all, but so many thought they would enjoy reading the book because it was Italian and neither of them really read it. My cousin's wife read it a little bit, so I could not believe it when I read it. SM: That had to do with Mussolini probably and the fascism and all that other stuff going on. RP: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. SM: How did you become interested in civil rights even before you could [inaudible]. RP: I got brainwashed into it. SM: Connection with a- RP: My parent, all my life I heard about the Scottsboro boys. For example, there's a left wing, I do not know if it's communist, I do not know what kind of magazine it was that my mother had a copy of, that had a story about the Scottsboro boys. And it all had a story about when she got arrested. And it's the same time. So, my mother also had black friends. I mean, LA is a pretty integrated neighborhood. We lived in a white neighborhood, but my mother had a few black friends and my high school had black students in it because LA High School, if you went to the south, it was very interesting. From the high school, if you went south, it was a Mexican and black neighborhood. You went east, it was a Japanese neighborhood. If you went north they're gigantic white mansions. And there was one black person that lived there, Nat King Cole. There were private streets with guards at houses at different streets, so you could not go in there, gigantic mansions. I had some friends that lived there. And then if you went west, it was mixed up, a lot of Jewish neighborhoods and white and working class and more until it got further west, then it got to be fancier again. Where I happened to live was a very integrated school. And so I just grew up having black friends and Japanese friends. It's how the neighborhood was. SM: When you look at those early, late (19)50s and early (19)60s, even before the Black Panthers or even a thought, I just want to list these things and whether you personally or your parents or your family were linked to any of these. Let me list them first and then you can comment. RP: Okay. SM: And of course, the civil rights movement that was real strong in the (19)50s, Dr. King's Montgomery bus boycott, the I Have a Dream speech in Washington. We all know what happened with the lunch counters and down south, Freedom Summer of (19)64 when so many of the students- RP: Do I need to interrupt you or let you go through all of those? SM: Yeah, I am going to go through them and then the Chaney, Schwerner, Goodman situation, the church bombing of the little girls, Emmett Till, James Meredith's march. And of course, groups like SNCC, NAACP, CORE, the Urban League and the race riots that were all like Watson (19)64. Any thoughts on any of those? RP: Oh, I have a lot of thoughts because I know all ... It's a mixed bag because I grew up knowing about all of that because my parents got radical newspapers and magazines, you got to understand they were often brought in in shopping bags. But for example, when the Scottsboro boys got arrested, in the same issue of this communist magazine, I cannot think of the name, maybe it was not communist, but it was definitely a left-wing magazine, was an article my mother being in jail, being held for her strike activities in Lawrence. And the Scottsboro boys were also in that issue. So for me, that was part of my history. You named so many. I was going to tell you specific stories that happened around some of them, and I cannot remember. SM: Well, why do not I just, the first one, Dr. King and the Montgomery bus boycott. RP: Okay. I just thought of what the one I was going to tell you. So, 1962, I got married, I think it was (19)62. And after my wedding, a bunch of people, and in fact, one of my bridesmaids was going on one of the freedom rides, and she actually went to North Carolina, I think it was. And this guy, Joe Gerbracht, who's now a lawyer in California, went to see, he was not going, he was not that radical, but he got really drunk at my wedding and he went to say goodbye to a bunch of people on the bus. And he went on the bus and passed out and woke up, he was on his way to Mississippi. SM: Oh my gosh. RP: So that happened. Both of those two things happened. And just recently, my friend Carol, who kept a scrapbook of everything that happened when she went, she actually went to North Carolina or South Carolina, I cannot remember, one of them, during those Freedom Rides. And she's now very ill. But I visited her in the hospital and with her husband there about four or five months ago, and he gave me her whole scrapbook of that period of time. It included all of her photographs and leaflets and things about do not go out at night or you will be hung, posters that were put up and all this stuff. So, I grew up with, that was part of my day-to-day normal stuff somehow. And of course, it was very moving, the whole civil rights period, and I did not do it. Why did not I do it? I almost did it. I almost got on that bus, but I went to see Mrs. Clark, my stupid, I am not saying stupid, my counselor at LA High School. It was my last year, and I told her I was thinking of doing it and I wanted her advice. And she said, "Well, if you do, you may never be able to teach." SM: Oh, it was a threat then, early. RP: Yeah. SM: Oh my God. Because as we get later into the interview, we talk about the importance of Newsreel and what you did there, but how did the media's coverage of these things that I just mentioned, all these events in the late (19)50s. How did the- RP: How did they cover? SM: How did the media- RP: You got to understand that I had beyond the media we got delivered to the house, the LA Times, and we got the local paper, the Pico Post, and the small little for community stuff. But my parents had, because my mother's was held for deportation, she was always scared they're going to kick her out of the US, that her friends would come to her house with brown grocery bags and inside would be the People's Work World, which was the communist newspaper. We had all that reading material in our house, but it was brought in, not by my parents, but by her friends who had visited in brown paper bags. My parents died, they had the most incredible intensive bookshelves filled with books, radical, every book you can imagine from that period of time, radical. SM: Do you have those in archives now? RP: I definitely still have them. SM: Good. RP: They're in my bookshelves now. I do not read them, but they're there. SM: Yeah. Well, what was your thoughts on looking at television back in the (19)50s, that black and white TV and early (19)60s when President Kennedy came in (19)61, what was your thought on the media's coverage of these early events in the Civil Rights movement? They would list them on the evening news and you would see them in the paper. But was that in any way inspiring you to do something more, something more daring, more educational, more revealing? RP: Well, I was always thought that I was doing daring things. We did support things. We did not have big demonstrations in LA around civil rights that I can remember. But I watched it with in great interest, let me say that. Whatever TV had on, I watched TV all the time. My parents always had the news on, always had the news. 6:00 news it would be on. And then I cannot remember, we ate dinner before 6:00, so we would have to be done by 6:00, or we ate after the news. But I grew up with that. And not only that, but I grew up with all of my parents' radical friends, because my parents are great entertainers. Coming to the house for eating big dinners and arguing you could not imagine and discussing. I did not pay too much attention at times about all the political things happening. When the Rosenbergs were being executed, what year was that? Do you know? SM: That was in 19 ... Was that (19)54? RP: I do not know, but I am not- SM: Think it was around that time at the McCarthy hearings, it was in that timeframe. RP: Oh, it was? Well, I would rush home from school and watch the McCarthy hearings. My Uncle Norman bought us our first TV very early, and my mother would be there watching. And as soon as I got home, I would be watching the McCarthy hearings. And because some of my friends' fathers who were in the Hollywood movie industry would be testifying sometimes. And I remember Bill Jericho's father was one of them. And so we watched the news. My parents did news all the time, and I watched the hearings and there was one more thing I was going to tell you before I thought of the TV ... I lost my train of thought. SM: Magazines, or... RP: Well, we had all the radical magazines in the house. We did not have any garden magazines or anything like that. I do not know why, we did not have that kind of magazine. SM: Better Home and Gardens, that kind of stuff. RP: No, none of that was in there. But we did have the LA Times on Sunday. My parents had the commie newspaper People's World. There were ... what other magazines were there? SM: Well, there was Nation that was very popular. RP: Oh, we did not have Nation. And big arguments, my parents and their friends on all sorts of political things, which I never paid attention to the arguments. Maybe they were just discussions, I do not know. But that did not interest me in my younger years. SM: A quote that really stood out in some of the literature I read on you was that you have been quoted as saying that you used to look out when you lived in New York City near the [inaudible] RP: Out the window? SM: Out the window. RP: Watch the sun setting over in New York and wish I was there? SM: Yeah, that fire. And then the fire from the [inaudible]. RP: What it was, I was living in the New Jersey... This is later I got married. My husband was at Columbia University getting a PhD and he was working at the New York Times in the morgue. The morgue, you know what the morgue is, the newspaper? SM: You mean the obituary columns? RP: No, the morgue in newspaper is where they clip all the newspapers. They get all the stories and they file them. So, they have a back load of everything that is ever been written. SM: Oh, okay. RP: And that is called the morgue. So we lived in New Jersey. It was about the bus stopped on the corner of our street, and it was about a 15-minute ride to get into 40s, where the bus terminal was, in 42nd Street. And we had found that place because somebody else was a group of four or five little cottages going down on the Palisades overlooking the Hudson River. And it was gorgeous. And as the sunset to my east to the back of me, it would hit all the windows of all the buildings in New York, and it would turn them red on a sunset night. And so that is what I was looking at. And I would look at them and wish that I was there. Is that what I said? SM: You said, well then you said it was the inspiration that ignited you because you said- RP: Invited me to go to New York to get involved. SM: No, you said the GI Zippo lighter on the- RP: Oh, on the TV, I saw that. SM: Yeah. And it helped- RP: Oh yeah, I remember what that was. Okay. That is not nothing about the New York thing. This what really got me totally upset was this GI was in a little village in Vietnam, and the people were in these little straw houses. And first one guy goes and takes this knife and starts cutting open their bags of rice and dumping it on the ground. That was the first thing. That was really upsetting to me. And then this other guy who takes out his Zippo and he lights one of their huts on fire. And that was real. That really incensed me. And it did that somebody would, these poor people had nothing. And there were these just mainly women holding these naked kids in their arms and everybody's crying and screaming, and these guys are doing it. And that is what really ignited me to get really involved in the peace movement, antiwar movement. SM: When you were a kid at a young adult, did you take pictures and film things when you were real young, before you even knew about Newsreel? Were there- RP: No. Well, when Newsreel started, I went to the first Newsreel meeting. That happened in 1967 in New York. Well, I had my brownie camera. I took pictures when I went to camp of my friends or a deer or a tree or something, what normal kids would take pictures of. But my father, I will tell you about my father. My father and I never realized this at the time, had a darkroom in our house. We had this small room that had a single bed in it that a guest would sometimes stay there. And this is not my first house, this is towards the end. We lived in a few different places, but it was a little room. And it had the person who used to have that house turned it into a darkroom also. And it had a sink there. And my father had a lot of dark darkroom equipment and he used to take photos and he would develop them there. So that is what happened. And his photos, I have a scrapbook of a lot of his stuff, but they're just like family pictures, what you take of your family kind of, and mountains and stuff like that. But in my bathroom, I have got a beautiful, very large picture he took of a yucca. Do you know what yucca is? SM: A yucca. RP: A plant. There's a big white flower on top. SM: That is the one out in Arizona, or... RP: Oh, it could be any place. They grow in a lot of places. And he developed and it is just a gorgeous, gorgeous, and he had not colored some of the prints. SM: And who knows, maybe subconsciously, that is how you really got interested in photography. RP: My parents always had, I always had cameras. I always had the cheap little brownie type cameras. And wherever we went, if we went to Yosemite, my parents were into nature. We always went camping overnight. There were certain beaches not far from where we lived that you could put up your tent. My parents liked camping. So we put up our tent at the beach with other people, other families, and my father would take pictures. I have pictures of all this stuff. Then we would go to Yosemite and we would camp. Every year we would go to Yosemite and my father would take pictures. And by the way, I had some pine cones. But the main thing is my father belonged to this, I told you earlier, this group called The Nature Friends, that was on the Nazi list as being a socialist. Hitler hated these people and arrested and killed a lot of them. The group started out of Germany, but it spread to Switzerland and Austria and United States. And that is where my parents met, hiking at the one in Midvale, New Jersey. And I still go, by the way, I kept my membership up all these years. I pay my dues every year. SM: You do not even understand that if you know anything about Hitler, was not he really into staying fit, and the perfect male, or whatever it was there? RP: That is what all these guys look like in the pictures. They're wearing those little shorts, like Switzerland. But there's a place that is in San Jacinto, the mountain right above next to Palm Springs. My father helped build that cabin there. And as you go through it, a park, a national forest park, and there's a place where you can park your car and then you hike up about, you have to bring all your stuff. You hike up about, well, I do not know, probably a seven-minute walk. And on the top, they built this unbelievable, gorgeous cabin that looks like something out of the German or Swiss Alps. It's all stone on the bottom and then wood on the top and a big sleeping room inside and sleeping porch. Those Germans are so bright. Two miles away, there's water. This is big mountains. The pine cones are two feet big. And they piped in water two miles away, going up and down hills and by gravity fed somehow. And then they built this metal three layer box of frame with burlap over it and with a hose on the top of it. And the water then sprinkles out the top by the pressure coming down. And what's the burlap? And it drips down and the box is made out of mesh wire so animals cannot get into it to eat your food. And it keeps it cool. You're can have cold beer there. And so, they did all this stuff. I have a few films, I did not make them, but I found them in my discovery of trying to do research on this group, and I found films of them building this place. So, I have been around film stuff. We were extras in movies. I cannot even remember what movies. But when they needed audience, somebody sit in the audience or something. Growing up, that Hollywood thing was kind of important to me, living close to it. SM: Oh, you were not audience for Howdy Doody, were you? RP: No, but I was in the audience for, there was an Abbott and Costello show. SM: Oh yeah. And that Art Linkletter had his show too. RP: Do not know that. But I knew Abbott and Costello. Do you remember those names? SM: Oh yeah, I remember them well. RP: Yeah. Well, Abbott and Costello, one of them was born in Patterson, New Jersey, where I am from. SM: Oh, my golly. RP: So that was my connection to that. SM: At your school, what kids or what people did you know that were from Hollywood? RP: From Hollywood? SM: Yeah. RP: Well, it was not really from my school because my school was not in the Hollywood area, but I knew my parents from being radicals. We knew all the commie writers that got blacklisted, like Bill Jericho's kids. And I knew, I am trying to think of the name. SM: I know there was a movie out on one of them. I forget his name now, the producer. There's a movie out on them a year ago, I remember. And for Zero Mostel was in that group as well. RP: I will tell you, my parents were not in that group particularly. But we had friends that were in it. And we had individual friends because my parents were, first of all, my parents were workers. And that group was more, but my parents were intellectuals. Got to understand. We had lots of books and did all this stuff. They were still working class. That group was upper middle class or upper class, but from the industry. And they did not mingle that much with working class. Plus, my mother was Jewish and my father was Italian, and most of them were Jewish, I think. SM: Can you explain how Newsreel began, where and when and- RP: Exactly. Here is what happened. SM: Explain how the Boomer generation involvement, why did it start and who were the early people? RP: So '19, my husband and I broke up. I had friends in New York and I went to look for an apartment in New York, I wanted to move to New York. And I just looked at this apartment on 15th Street, fifth floor walkup. And I looked at it, and when I walked in, the guy says, "I am leaving right now. I am going to France. I got to catch a plane in two hours." And the apartment was filled with stuff, all over the place. And he says, "Here's the keys. If you want to take it, it's not my apartment. The guy whose actually apartment is-is already there. We're going to go work on a film with" ... Do not remember now, but some famous Italian filmmaker. And that is it. "I got to leave, I got a plane to catch." So I looked around and there was a Leica camera lying on the bed or a dresser, and there's a lot of money in change in someplace else. And he was gone. So I took the camera, put it on my shoulder. I decided I did not want that apartment. Fifth floor walkup, forget it, it was too much to walk up. And I walked out and I am walking down the street and I bumped into this guy, Marvin, who I am still friends with, and actually lives here. And Marvin says, "Oh, I am on my way to this film meeting, it's the first meeting of a group of people. And it's down on ..." We were walking down Second Avenue and 14th Street by this time. And do you know New York? SM: Yes, I do. RP: Okay. So I was at 15th near Second. Between First and Second, no, between Second and ... Anyway, it does not make a difference. It was a one block over. And I was walking down with Marvin. And all of a sudden this wild guy comes running up with us to us. And he said, "Oh my God, I am so glad to bump into you." And he sees my camera. He says, "Oh, good. You're a photographer. Well, I got to tell you, this is the first meeting right now that is happening. Immediately you have got to go to, of all these radical filmmakers. It's happening in this loft." And he told us, he says, "I am going there right now. Just follow me and da da da da da." It was Melvin Margolis, who is in our film group. He's in a lot of our films. And he was a great organizer. And he filmed some of the great shots in the Columbia University takeover film. When the black students kicked all the whites ... Do you know that film at all? SM: No, I do not know the film, but I know all about it because I had friends that went there. RP: Okay. Well, the black students took over the president's office and then kicked all the white students out at some point. And we filmed it, by the way. And Melvin, this guy that who ran up to me in the street, that said, "You got to go to this meeting, the blacks kicked all the whites out of that building." And he convinced them that is the most important thing that they were doing that has ever happened, and he has got to stay to film it. And they let him stay. He was the only white person that was allowed to stay in that building. So he filmed them soaping, putting liquid soap on all the stairs. Because there's a tunnel the cops are going to make come through the basement and come up the stairs, so they would slip on the soapy stairs. And he filmed all the notes on the blackboard about so-and-so's mother called and blah, blah. He was great. He was a really great wild man. He's dead now. He died of cancer some years ago. But anyway, so he led us to this meeting, his first meeting. And that was the first gathering of, I walked into this room. It was a basement, and it could have been either Bill Jersey or ... It was somebody else's loft. I cannot think of his name. Maybe it was not even a loft. It was in the basement. Very dark. And I looked around and they were all these really interesting people. And I said, "Oh my God, this looks like my gang of people that I want or hang out with." And I sat down and that was the first Newsroom meeting So that is how it happened. And then I kept going to the other meetings, and I finally found an apartment to rent on 15th Street. And I had friends, this old couple who lived on the second floor, and mine was on the fourth floor, I think. It was a one bedroom, a living room, a kitchen kind of dining area. And then there was a little alcove that you could put another bed in. So at times, somebody in Newsreel always needed a place to stay. So I would let them stay there. And it was a great building. I wish I did not give it up. We won it in a rent strike against the guy who owned it, and I would have owned it now. SM: How did you finance all this? In the very early- RP: I immediately, we rented a newsreel, rented an office on Seventh Avenue in the Garment District, and they needed somebody to run the office. And somebody, I think maybe Robert Kramer, somebody asked if I wanted to work in the office, because I was not working. In New Jersey I was teaching school, public school, by the way, and I began hating it. It was elementary school and I hated it. And there miniskirts were getting fashionable. I came to school in a miniskirt, and the principal sent me home one day and I said, "That is it. I am out of here." So I quit teaching and that is when I moved to New York to look for this place. I needed a job, and so they hired me at $65 a week to open. I went and there was another woman that got hired, the two of us. We would go in the morning, we would go at, I do not know, 8:00, 9:00 or whatever time, and unlock, walk up the two flights of stairs, or maybe we were on the second floor, Seventh Avenue and 18th Street, I think it was. Or 27th Street or something. It was in the garment area. That is all I can remember. Because people were pushing those things of clothing. And we would open it up and we would open the mail and then Newsroom people would start coming in. People are making films. Somebody would start bringing equipment in a movie and start editing something or somebody. We began just making films, immediately. Just people who had had equipment began sharing their equipment, and people who had money began paying the rent and paying for labs. And it was a very diverse group of people. SM: When you did that first one, the Columbia protests, how would you find out about it and how would you get access to- RP: Oh, that was really simple. So here we are. I come from New Jersey with my little red Volkswagen that I had when I taught school. And my husband and I had broken up and I kept the car. So, I am living on 17th Street, the place I just described to you. So, I am there and all of a sudden, the same guy that I told you when I was walking down the street with Marvin and this guy walked up to us and said, "Hey, there is this first Newsreel meeting happening," he told Marvin and I. Marvin calls me up, he says, "Roz, Columbia's just been taken over. I just heard about it. Get your car down here and pick me up and the cameras and we will go up there." SM: Wow. RP: So, I drove down, he loaded up cameras and film and stuff, and we drove up and parked the car there, and I never left during the protests. It was so much fun. It was one of the most fun things I have ever done. SM: Were you a little fearful though, that you were getting involved in a situation that- RP: I am never fearful like that. SM: Did they force you out too, along with the students when they took over, or the police or whatever? RP: Well, okay. Did you see the film? SM: I have not seen the film, no. But I know. RP: You should look at some of the film, will tell you so much. We will talk about that later. But what happened was, first one building was taken, then another, and then before you know it, the math building was taken in, all the math teachers were on strike. And then Margaret Meade at the anthropology building, and it was thousands. We were the majority, I never get scared of things like that. Things like that never bothered me. And I also always felt that I was safe because I was not one of them. I was documenting it. I was a filmmaker... documenting it. I was a filmmaker, so my camera kept me safe. I always felt that way. That is not necessarily true, but that is what I felt. SM: Did you film the... Again, I have not seen it, but I know the scene, the historic scene of the students in the President's office. RP: No, I did not film that, but you know who filmed it? Melvin. SM: Oh my God. RP: This is what happened. The Black students... Everybody took over the place, and Melvin was there, and he was filming it. And there were a few other, maybe another neutral person, and they opened up his cognac or his wine. And they began going through all of his files and his girly magazines. But finally, they asked all the white... The Blacks asked all the whites to leave and go take over other buildings. Everybody left except Melvin, who convinced them he had to film what they were doing because it's the most important thing. So, they allowed Melvin to stay in that building. And he filmed them soaping the stairs, this liquid soap stuff they had, and they put it down... There was a tunnel that led from another building, underground, into that building. So they thought the cops are going to come through this tunnel, so then the steps would be all slippery and slimy from the liquid soap. And we have all that on film, in our Columbia film. It is all there. SM: Of course, I am going to just briefly mention some of your other films here. But the Chicago (19)68, you were there and you covered that as well with photography and with film. I would say that must have been a scary situation too. RP: I was scared once in a while there. I will tell you, it is not like I am not ever not scared. I feel pretty good, actually, with a camera. I always feel like it's protection, but I have been hitting the head with a tear gas grenade in Washington, D.C. at a demonstration once. And that was really scary. And I immediately ran... It did not hit me hard. It came across the side of my head, but Robert Kramer had already left. He ran fast. As soon as he saw them, he got out of there and left me and this other guy there. And the other guy and I ran around for a while, and we have some great shots from that. And then we left. SM: What stands out from that experience? RP: Which one? SM: Chicago (19)68. Is there any scenes? Or just [inaudible]- RP: If you saw the films that I made, my photographs... Well, the first thing was, I went there with a group of people. Newsreel had three different groups that were making three different films on Chicago. My group was going to find some young, innocent people who get involved and then all of a sudden the cops are going to be... There's going to be all this stuff. They get disillusioned, and they're going to get beaten up and stuff. Well, we found our couple... And the next day, we lost them in the crowd. We never could find them again. And then we were on our own, and we just began filming. And I hung out a lot in Lincoln Park, which was one of the staging grounds for stuff. And that is where a lot of these Chicago young bikers hung out. I think they were called the head hunters. And there's this one kid, I think his jacket said banana on it. And we did some long interviews with them. And it was interesting to talk to alternative types of people that were in Chicago that were not the political, not the Rennie Davises, not the FBS. I hung out at night a lot in the movement center, the FBS Movement Center. And that is where everybody got together and talked about strategy, and we filmed all this, by the way. This is in our film. You got to look. You got to look at some of our films. Do you have a video machine? SM: Yes, I do. RP: Okay. Because it is hard to explain all this stuff because it is so intense. But it was really scary... Sometimes it was really scary, and sometimes it was just absolutely fun. Because I had my gang of people. I had two gangs. I had Newsreel... There were a lot of Newsreel people. My best friend Jane is too scared. She does not like to be out when there's cops and all that fighting, but she was very important. She stayed near a phone in somebody's apartment, and she manned the phones. So, whatever anybody needed, or if somebody got in trouble, or somebody got busted or something, she was there to take down all the information, and make the contacts, and everything. And at the end... I never get arrested, by the way. My mother always told me, "Do not get arrested." Because my mother got arrested and spent time in jail for her union organizing. She said, "It's a waste of time. It drains you. It is a waste of time." She says, "Just escape. Try to escape." And I always followed her advice, and I always got out of there really fast if I thought I was going to be busted. My friend Jane, who is still by the way, my best friend. I speak to her every day. She lives up here, not far from me. She did not go out the streets at all. She was at the phones in case somebody had trouble. And going home from Chicago, the cops stopped her car. And why? Because she had Tom Hayden and some other people in her car. SM: Oh, no. RP: Because Tom is a really good friend of ours. And so, the cops were probably looking at him and watching him. Saw him get in the car, stopped the car... And inside her car, somebody had hidden under the seat these little balls that had nails in them that you stick under the tires of the cops as they move forward, which she did not do. She never would do anything like that. She's very proper, wealthy girl who would not do anything like that. So, she got arrested. I do not know. You just never know. SM: The other one that really fascinates me is the 1967 protest at the Pentagon. RP: Oh, yeah. See, that was the scariest one. I was so frightened at that one. SM: Yeah, because there was a march all the way across the bridge, I believe. And then they walked up to the Pentagon? Is that what- RP: Well, what happened was we were at the... Where were we? At the Reflecting Pool? Or someplace... Where Dave Dellinger and the usual gave the speeches, and then there was a march. We filmed all this, by the way. And then we marched... Maybe we went across a little bridge. I remember a bridge, but I cannot remember that. But then I remember, somebody cut through some field. And we went up this hill, and it led us right to the Pentagon. SM: Oh, wow. RP: And that was scary. That was really scary. See, I never sit down in demonstrations. I am taking pictures. I am not going to be one that sits there and let us cops come and hit me on the head. That is scary for me. So people sat down. And the marshals, not even the cops, it's the marshals that were just violent. The marshals went after people and people would not get up. They had their arms locked, and they would just bang them with these long wooden police sticks that they had. And there was tear gas, and a lot of people had bloodied heads. SM: I think there were 100,000 people at that. RP: Yeah, they were little old ladies and all sorts of stuff. I have got thousands of photographs. SM: That is the one where that picture of the guy with the flower in his gun... I think that came from there. RP: Yeah, it did. Exactly. SM: That one of your pictures, or? RP: You know what? I do not know which ones you're talking about exactly. I remember a picture with... The kid had put a flower in the end of the gun. SM: When I look at all these, you were... Boy, it's amazing the things that you covered, beginning with Chicago. I saw the entire list, but up against the Wall, the Miss America. You did- RP: That was great. That was really my most fun thing. We got on a bus in New York, and there was this great Black woman, one of the very first Black women lawyers who's now dead, but she got on our bus with us. And I was always a fan of hers. She's very radical. And we went down to, where was it? Asbury Park, or? I am trying to think where it happened. SM: Atlantic City? RP: Where? SM: Was it Atlantic City? RP: Yeah, Atlantic City. And it was a group of women... I went as a photographer. You got to understand, I was not the organizer of this event. But Beverly Grant, who worked in the office with me in Newsreel, she is a member of Newsreel, was also part of the group that organized this. So her part of this was to go inside. They got tickets and a certain time. They had stink bombs, whatever that means. It's something that you... There's ammonia, and it smells like ammonia, and they were going to let them go inside where the pageant was being held. And the person with Beverly got arrested immediately for some reason. Maybe they saw her doing it. And Beverly did take some photographs, and I was outside the entire time. And I, basically, was taking photographs outside. And they brought a sheep, and they began comparing Miss America to the sheep. And we made a short little... Maybe 15-minute film about that event. SM: The other one that I really have to see is Bess Myerson speaking at the Women's- RP: Another Mother for Peace. SM: When I saw the that on the list, I went immediately to- RP: That was not a Newsreel film. That was a film that we found, somebody gave us. And I just kept a copy. I made Bess Myerson a copy for it. She found out about it. I made her a print of it. SM: My golly. Well, I got to definitely see that, because I would have never thought that- RP: But all she did was... It was the Beverly Hills Women's Group, Another Mother for Peace, a luncheon in a fancy hotel. She gave this great speech. SM: Well, you covered all these major things. You were up at Harvard dealing with the ROTC. You were- RP: It was not all me. It was my group. SM: Yeah, it was your group, but- RP: So, I did not... The group, various people did various things. I am not going to take credit for doing all those things. SM: The Earth Belongs to the People was another one. RP: First ecology film, that was the very first ecology film ever made. SM: 79 Springs of Ho Chi Minh. RP: That, by the way, was made by Santiago Álvarez, a great Cuban filmmaker. We distributed it. SM: Troublemakers was one. Yippie, you did a short one- RP: Oh, Yippie has a lot of footage... It's a spoof on the Chicago convention, and it is hilarious. Daley got scared that the Yippies were going to put LSD in the Lake, park. And so Abbey Hoffman and a few other people worked on that film. I did a little work on it with this guy, Bill Jersey, in his studio. Was not a Newsreel film, but it should have been because it's one of our more popular films. And that shows them in a... Keystone cops, 1930s car. And they're all dressed up like cops. And they have their big billy clubs out, and they're hitting the water to try to get rid of the LSD in it. SM: My gosh. RP: It is hilarious. SM: Yeah. And another thing too is, this is an area which I have not been able to get a whole lot of information on, is the Young Lord's film and the Puerto Rican- RP: That was my favorite group. SM: And the Puerto Ricans- RP: In Newsreel, we had different groups that you hung out with. I am still friends with these Young Lords, by the way. Do you ever watch Amy Goodman on PBS? SM: Yes, I have. RP: On Democracy Now! It's Amy Goodman and Juan González. SM: Yes. RP: He was one of the leaders, he was actually my boyfriend at that time, of the Young Lords. SM: Well, that is the one area that I have not been able to get anybody to talk about. I emailed a couple scholars, and they did not respond. RP: The Young Lords? SM: Somebody who teaches at different universities, to talk about the Puerto Rican movement, the Young Lords, that actually followed the Black Panthers in many respects. RP: That is right. And they took their berets, the Black Berets. And they were very much like the Panthers. And we made this great film because they did a takeover of a church in the Puerto Rican community in New York that was never used. Only on Sundays was it used, and the people had already moved out of that community because they went to nicer communities. Because that community was... Gotten really trashed and was really poor. And it's on the edge of Harlem. And so, they demanded that the church be able to be used for a free breakfast program. And the minister would not let them do that, so they ended up taking over the church. SM: If you have any contacts from the Young Lords, I would love to talk to them because I would like to- RP: Juan González. SM: Would he ever speak to me though? RP: Why would not he? SM: Well, he is a TV personality. RP: Oh, I do not know. I have got another guy who is really good. His name is Mickey Melendez. SM: N-I-K-K-I? RP: Friend. He and I are... Well, Juan was my boyfriend actually at one point. So, I do not know. Maybe he would speak to you, maybe he would not. What do I know? Because I am not really good friends. He is very quiet and shy, and I do not see him very much. But Mickey Melendez was very important in that takeover. And he lives in... I have his phone number. I will give you his phone number. And you can use my name if you want. If you want me to, [inaudible]- SM: Can you email that to me? RP: Let me just give it to you right now. SM: Okay, let me- RP: You have a pen? SM: Yep. RP: Give me a minute. I am just going to pull it up. I am pulling it up on my cell phone. Mickey... Mickey, come on. M-I-C-K... Why do not I have it here? Oh, here it is. It's is easier for me to do this, like this, right now. Because if you ask me to do something later, I may not do it. Are you ready? SM: Yep. RP: 646-251-7745. So tell him what you're doing. You're writing this book. Is that what you're doing? SM: Yes. RP: And just who you are, and that I gave you his phone number. SM: And his name is Mickey Melendez? RP: Melendez. And he is very important in the Young Lords. He plays a big part in the takeover of the church. The other thing the Young Lords did was they... We had a bunch of radical doctors, who I actually just saw them, one of them, this guy Michael. And Lincoln Hospital, which is in the Bronx, where all the Puerto Ricans and Blacks would be sent... Mickey worked with doing a lot of medical stuff with Puerto Ricans, and making use of that hospital, and training people to be first aid stuff and things. And one of the great things they did is the Young Lords stole a New York City Health van, and brought it down into Spanish Harlem and did lead poisoning of the kids, testing for it. SM: Oh. RP: Because those vans used to just sit there. They did really great actions like that. SM: How do you spell his first name? RP: M-I-C-K-E-Y, Mickey. SM: Oh, just like Mickey Mantle. RP: Miguel. SM: Just like Mickey Mantle. RP: Yeah, or Miguel is his real name, but I call him Mickey. SM: How did you become linked to the Black Panther Party? In other words, how did you develop their trust as a white person? RP: Okay, now I know. I had to think a minute. So, I always cared about Black people, and I loved the Black Panther Party when they came out. SM: Let me switch my tape here. Hold on one second. RP: ...another book, number one. Number two, she has got six relatives- SM: Oh. RP: That she is taking care of, somebody in her house. She has got a lot of problems. She has got kids that she has got to deal with. She's got grandkids. She has got a full plate, plus she teacher. And I am pretty good friends with her, actually. SM: She said not to contact her until she finished her book, and she said it was going to be done by October. RP: I do not know. October, this coming October? SM: Yeah, right now. How did you become linked again to the Black Panthers? RP: All right, this is what happened. I am in radical Newsreel, the film group, and I began filming every time a group of... Every time the Panthers did anything... They were our counterpart. Newsreel, we were all radicals. We had a lot of film, so I started going up to the...I was asked by one of the leaders of the Black Panther Party in New York, if I would come up and show Newsreel films to educate the new recruits of the Panthers in their office. So once a week, every Monday night I think it was, I would leave the office. I would carry this very heavy, turquoise blue projector. I cannot tell you how heavy it was. And I would take one or two films under my arm and my purse, and I would take the subway up to 127th Street. Get out, and I would walk down to...I cannot remember if it was Seventh Avenue, the street that the Panthers' headquarters were on. And this guy, he was in charge of the headquarters and the building space, exactly, and who also was in helping with the new, young recruits, the new, young high school kids, and people who came in. And he would help set me up, and I would show... How I am talking to you about the films, I would talk to these kids about what the films were about. And we would show a film, and we would have a political discussion. And I did that once a week. It would be dark by that time, so then he would walk me back. His name was Zayd Shakur. You heard of Afeni Shakur? SM: Oh, yes. RP: Assata Shakur? SM: Yeah, the [inaudible]- RP: [inaudible] Shakur? Zayd's grandfather also has the name Shakur. Their family name is Shakur. And I love Zayd. He was the kindest, softest, nicest young guy that you could ever imagine. And Afeni Shakur, Tupac Shakur- SM: Yes. RP: They are all part of the same family. SM: Oh, wow. RP: And they took that name. Some of them were born into it, but they took the name. And when they would have reunions and parties, I always got invited. And even from Vermont, years later when I left, I would get invited. And I went to the cake company here in Burlington. And I had a cake that said... Made a big sheet cake to bring down for the party that was being held in Connecticut that said, "All power to the people." So I said to the woman who is the baker, I said, "Do you know what that means?" She says, "Does it have something to do with electric company?" And that was the end of that. I tried to explain. So, I always was close to the Black Panthers. I loved the Black Panther people that I met. And to this day, they're still really kind to me, gentle to me. And Zayd Shakur got killed on a shootout on the New Jersey Turnpike. And he was really a neat young man, but he worked with the new young students who came into the party. And after I would show the film, and talk about the film, and what was happening in the country, he would walk me back to the subway to make sure I would get on the subway safely. And that was my relationship with him. SM: I think it's important because there's a lot of misperceptions out there on the part of people who have read history or maybe do not know or do not want to know. Please explain the Panther links to white people and the partnerships they have with Asian Americans, and Mexican Americans, and Puerto Ricans. Because I do not think a lot of people... I think they isolate them into this one group, and they do not really see the relationships that they had with other people. Could you talk a little bit about that? RP: Well, I just told you one story about me going down there. And still to this day, when they have reunions, I go to the reunions. And there's that time... I have done a lot of work around other things. You got to understand that this is not all I have done. Because I became friends with a lawyer by the name Elizabeth Fink. Do you know that name? SM: Yes. RP: So, Elizabeth Fink worked a lot on Dhoruba Bin Wahad's case. He was a Black Panther member. And I was in her law office, that she shared with a bunch of other people, when they had requested a whole bunch of documents on this whole case and on the Panthers to come. And I was there when they arrived, and there was something like 500,000 documents, big boxes, and boxes, and boxes of stuff. And then they went through the stuff... I never saw that much stuff. And it included all the counterintelligence documents, all the dirty tricks the FBI did that you have only heard about, but it's written down there in black and white. And I said, "Oh, this is incredible." So then, they did an appeal, and a lot of things are blacked out. So the lawyers in the office, Bob Boyle, Elizabeth Fink, and Bob Bloom, they did an appeal. And they asked that all the blacked out materials be un-blackened so we could read and see what it says. Sometimes there would be a whole page blacked out, so you did not know exactly what... So they did this, and they won. And I had this brilliant idea... I always get these brilliant ideas that then cost me years, that I would go through and... Because they were not in any order, anything. They're just how the FBI put it together as things went on. But you would be reading something about some incident, and then maybe 300 pages later, it would go on about that incident, what happened. So, I organized the project here at the University of Vermont. I brought it up for my students and other people in the community. I had a big meeting. I gave them instructions. Each person got one FBI book of documents that covered a certain period of time, maybe let us say 100 or 200 pages of documents. And I gave them a coding form. I worked with a coding form with the computer department. You would say, what was the volume it was from? What page was it? What's the number? The FBI has code numbers on each thing that they do. What is it about? Is it about starting problems between different groups? Is it about schools? Is it about education? Is it about workers? Is there something about race in it? It had about maybe 70 different things that you could mark, the time, the dates, the city that it happened in... And so, I did this. And after a number of years, we collected all this material. And then, we got the computer department at the University of Vermont to enter all the data. And it printed out everything in this order, so we could tell exactly what different things the FBI had done, going through all these 100,000 pages- SM: Wow. RP: Documents. SM: And it was pretty bad, was not it? RP: Yeah, it was really bad. And the thing is that when we got these documents, so much of the stuff was not marked out. It was not blacked out because... Some of the documents were blacked out. And then Liz Fink, and Bob Boyle, and the attorneys would go to court and demand that certain things be not blacked out. And then, the FBI would have to release things that showed, really, what happened. SM: Wow. RP: And so, we would get then better documents that showed us more and told this us more. And then sometimes, you would be reading a document and you did not know what really happened. And then you would read maybe five books later... Let us say, it's 300 pages, 400 pages later. You would come across something else that would fill in the information to tell the story completely. And so, that was a really big project that I did. I got totally obsessed around that because I could not believe that the FBI actually wrote all that stuff out. And not only did they write it out, but then they allowed the lawyers and the clients to see all that. It's just shocking to me. And I got totally turned onto the FBI. And there was one agent who was the biggest sexist... And great writer, brilliant writer, but he is very racist, very sexist. He liked to make jokes about Black people and everything when he made all his comments and his initials. See, we never knew the names of the FBI agents, but the FBI agents on each page, or when they did the reports, would put their initials. And his initials were WAC. So, we called him Agent WAC. SM: Wow. RP: And years later, I am reading through some other files, and I see that... Oh, I know what happened. I had gotten some files from the FBI in San Francisco. And when they were duplicating the files for me, or for the lawyers actually, for Liz Fink, they included... I found a page as I was reading it that had all the present-day... Somebody else must have gone to the Xerox machine and said, "Oh, I need a list of everybody who's working in the office right now." And they made a copy of all the FBI agents, with their names and present phone numbers. SM: Oh my gosh. RP: So, I got that document, and there's my Agent WAC. And I get his name for the first time. I only knew his initials were W-A-C. His name was William A. Cohendet, D-E-T at the end of his name, Cohendet, but it's Cohendet. And so, I get really excited. And I finally figure out, I am going to call the FBI office and see if I could talk to this guy. But then I do not have my nerve. And then I have this friend who is working for Mike Wallace at CBS. She went through a lot of my stories with me. She said, "Well, let me try... Give me that information. Let me see if I can do it, because maybe CBS will do a story on him." So, she calls me back a week later. And she says, "Well, you know what? That list was a list of the present-day FBI agents." This is years later. This is 20 years later. And that is his son who is also an FBI agent. And his son works there, and he's retired. But she gave me the son's home phone number, so I called up the son. No. She called up the son's home-home number, said it was from CBS. And she spoke to his wife. And his wife said, "Oh, that is his father who worked in those days. I will give you the phone number." So, we got the phone number of Agent WAC. By the time I pulled together a camera team, I pulled together somebody who was Steven Spielberg's cameraman and did all the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. And it was one of the same camera... He had a lot of camera people, but this was one that did them in France, I believe, that survived. I got him, and I got a friend of mine who's a very good sound person, and I called up the number. And I told him we would like to do an interview with him, and he got thrilled. We showed up, it was his 89th birthday. And he was so happy that he got to tell his story and be a star. SM: Oh my God. RP: So, we were there all day long, from morning until it started to get dark, and I interviewed him. Part of that interview is on my DVD. You should get the DVD. The story's there. SM: Yeah, I am definitely going to get it, definitely. RP: So, I have the interview with him on the DVD, part of it. Edited it, obviously. And then I also have another interview with another FBI agent that I fell in love with... Love meaning just through the paperwork. It's this other guy, Wesley Swearingen, who turned against the FBI at some point. And he got very interested... He was trying to figure out a lot of things. Because he came out to help Geronimo and some other people, and then he thought the FBI was maybe going to kill him. And he had retired already. He got really scared. And he had been in Hawaii, and he lived on a boat for many years. He now lives in Southern California. But anyways, I got him... I wanted to interview him, so I got the University of Vermont to pay him money and bring him to the university to talk about his being an FBI agent, which they did. SM: Wow. RP: And I got him a hotel, took him out for dinner with my friends, and we hit it off really well. And the following year, he called me up. And he said, "Roz, I am visiting my in-laws who live in the southern part of the state. And can we come and visit you?" I never have any of my documents. I never saved anything. And this FBI agent is this guy who I think maybe I messed up two of the stories, combined them a little. But this FBI, this is Agent WAC who I am talking about now. And his in-laws, he said, "Oh, my in-laws live in Pittsford." I said, "Oh, I know Pittsford." Because as a joke, some years earlier...I live in this little town, and we have a constable in our town that is elected position. And nobody was running that year. And as a joke, 32 of my friends did not tell me, but they wrote my name in. And I got the most votes so I became Constable in the town. SM: Oh my gosh. RP: And then they sent me for a week at the Police Academy to study all the laws of police laws and everything, which is in Pittsford, Pittsfield. And that is where the Police Academy was. So, I said to the guy, "Well, I have been there because I was elected constable, and I went there to study for a week." He says, "Well, meet my wife and all my family and we will take you out to the Radisson for dinner." So I did meet him, and we had dinner. And the first thing his wife says to me is, "You appreciate him more than his own children." And then, we became these immediate friends. I got what I call my costume. I got all dressed up. I changed how I normally look a little, and made myself very proper. And so, it was... a little and myself very proper. And so, that is how I got to know these two agents. And through them, I got a lot of information. And they're both on my DVD. I did two interviews with both of them. This DVD, besides having just some newsreel films, the extras is the main thing. It's nothing that you sit and watch all the way through because there's like maybe a PDF file at the very end. You turn off the DVD player and you look at it. There's a way of having to look at a PDF file on a DVD. And there's probably like, I do not know, 500 items on it, which includes all the Panther position papers and FBI documents that they wrote about them and all sorts of stuff. SM: Did not you have even yourself have an FBI record of over a thousand pages? RP: I have FBI [inaudible]. It's kind of boring. It's basically that I was seen at this event or seen at that event. SM: Oh, okay. RP: I never really did anything. I mean, I am not brave like a lot of people. I never got in trouble. I never got arrested. I was there as a camera person or as a demonstrator. My mother told me, "Do not get arrested. Escape if you can." And that is what I always followed, her words. Because being arrested is not fun. SM: One of the things I wanted to ask is why did the Black Panther party begin? No, you already talked about that. Why do a lot of people believe that they were a violent group like the Weathermen? I have talked to a lot of different people, and I cannot pick on any specific person, but when they talk about how the anti-war movement and civil rights and how the movements all went negative toward the end of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, they bring up the Weathermen, they bring up the American Indian movement, which went violent at Wounded Knee, and they bring up the Black Panthers. Now- RP: All right, let me speak to that. SM: Yeah. RP: I mean, I know your question, but let me do Wounded Knee first [inaudible]. Wounded Knee, these Native people were on their own land at Wounded Knee. And who was surrounding them? Who had a blockade that kept food from coming in? Do you know? SM: Well, I would think it would be the police. RP: Yes. So, that was Native land. I mean, in this country, you have a right to defend yourself. SM: Right. RP: All right. So, I am not even going to get into that. You can go online and read what Bill Cussler, their attorneys, and various other people have written about that and what they have written about it themselves. That was their land. And there's no reason at all that the US government should have been there. My opinion. All right. The second thing about the Panthers. The Panthers and Black people have been killed for years. They have been lynched, they have been hung, they have been beaten, they have been horribly treated, and they have a right to defend themselves and not allow themselves to be lynched and hung and beaten like that. And in this country, you have a right to carry a gun. You have a right to self-defense. And none of those Panthers ever shot, to my knowledge, at anybody unless the cops were shooting at them. Actually, there's a film out right now, and we're showing it at our film festival. It's the son of one of the Black Panthers that was involved in the LA shootout of the Black Panther headquarters. He's a young man. He studied film editing at USC, and his father and his father's friend, one of them had gotten shot when the police came and just did not like the Panthers, so they're going to shoot up their headquarters. They went to South Central LA and shot up. The father's a minister, and his friend still walks with a limp from being shot in the leg. He was on the roof, and there were no guns there at all. White people carry guns. You're allowed to go hunting, you're allowed to protect yourself. There's gun control that Blacks cannot have guns, and only whites can have guns. Only police can have guns. There were some Panthers that did bad drugs, and some of them maybe did things that were not too cool. I am not going to mention names or anything, but there were Panthers that were violent. But then you have to take each case and each thing by itself and you cannot link a whole group of people like all men or all white women or whatever it is, or all Weather people did this because it was not all. Sometimes there's somebody who does something that is not a good thing. And so, I think what happened is the Panthers, as soon as the media... And I blame the media for some of this, got a hold of the Panthers when they had guns to protect themselves. You know how many Black people were killed before Panthers had guns? They felt like they have a right in this country, have a right to have a gun. I mean, people in my town, I live in Vermont, there was a girl that lived here, and we used to walk around with a... What are they called? Around your waist. You have a holster. Is that what they're called? SM: Mm-hmm. RP: There was a gun in it. And during the hunting time, there's guns. Everybody has guns in their racks of their cars. But if they were Black people, I bet you it would be another story. SM: And they forget the fine things that they did do, which is certainly the lunch program for poor kids, the sickle cell anemia drives to raise funds for that. There's a lot of issues that were very positive. Do not you somewhat blame the media though here? Because the media... I am just throwing a question out here. The media has a tendency to show the sensational every time. It's the sensational, the black berets, the intimidation, the guns, which is part of it. And two specific instances stand to mind. One was when the Black Panthers in California surrounded the Alameda County courthouse. RP: I was there, by the way. SM: Oh, were you? RP: Yeah. And it's one of our films, on my DVD about... My big box set on the Black Panthers, it has that film in it. SM: Well, it was that scene and then the one we all know at Cornell in 1969, which was the students coming out of the union there with guns. RP: Do you have a picture of that? We cannot find these picture... And I remember seeing one picture, but I- SM: I have the magazine front cover of, I think it's Newsweek, that I will send you. RP: I would love to see it because I am trying to figure out... Because it was the anniversary of that, and I was trying to figure out where... There was a film made about it, but I cannot even find that anymore. SM: I know Harry Edwards was the graduate student there who was kind of the advisor of that group. Of course, Harry went on to be a sociology professor at Berkeley and wrote Black Students, which is a great book. He's retired now. But those are the two scenes. You see students at Cornell and you see the Black Panthers at Alameda County courthouse. And what- RP: Alameda County courthouse, I have a whole film. It's on that DVD. But there were no guns at that. There were no guns at all. There was marching around the courthouse. SM: Okay. Well, the picture was seen all over the place. RP: I might have to change phones. This phone is starting to go dead, the battery. SM: Is that your cell phone? RP: I got find my other telephone because this one's starting to go dead, I think. SM: All right. RP: Oh, here. Maybe this one will work better. SM: Okay. You're still coming through pretty strong. RP: No, but I hear it be starting to beep. It's warning me. Hold on a minute. SM: Okay. RP: Can you hear me? SM: Yup. RP: Okay, let me try this phone. I have got four phones downstairs on the same line. SM: All right. RP: The one I was talking to you starts beeping, so it gives me a warning that it might go dead. SM: Could you, in your own words, talk about the fine things that the Black Panthers did do? I know I listed them. But it's my understanding too, because I have read about President Johnson, did not he take the food program and try to incorporate that into a program within the federal government? There's something there that they- RP: [01:51:34] sounds familiar about it. But they did start the breakfast program. There had never been a breakfast program. Because kids were hungry going to school in the morning. You cannot think if you do not have a good breakfast. And they would have grits and eggs and blah, blah. That is why the Young Lords had that fight over taking over the church because they wanted to also have the breakfast program there. SM: Right. When you look at the unique personalities of the leaders of the Black Panthers, Black Panthers are never looked upon, in my understanding, as a... They did not have weekly meetings. RP: They did. SM: Did they have weekly meetings? RP: Oh, yeah. SM: Did they have membership drives? RP: Well, I do not know that they had a membership drive, but they were always having new recruits coming in. SM: Yeah, well- RP: Because I actually did a PR class with new recruits one time. I showed them the old Panther film, and there was somebody else... In fact, that is what I was going up to Harlem with the projectors, to show the film to new recruits. I did it weekly. SM: There's about seven or eight personalities that were nationally known that were leaders of the party. The ones that seem to have the positive image, I will mention them first. Kathleen Cleaver seemed to have a more positive image in the minds of many people, as did Eldridge Cleaver, because he was also a writer. And even David Horowitz will say that he was a very good writer, when Soul On Ice was written. And actually, he said he did not have as much of problem with Eldridge as he did with everybody else. RP: David said that? SM: Well, David, I interviewed him over a year ago, so I am trying to think of... But it seemed like the only one- RP: Only one you cannot imagine. David and I debated each other, by the way, at an academic conference on popular culture. And he's just horrible around the Panthers. And I will tell you why I think he's horrible. This woman, Kay... Kay Spender, maybe. Kay something. She was white, and he brought her over to do bookkeeping for the Panthers. He brought her over to Oakland. There's a bar there that the Panthers used to hang out. It was very close to where Huey's penthouse apartment was. He would sometimes get take-out food sent up to his place. I know a lot of this from the FBI files, reading them, by the way. And Kay Spender one day disappeared. She was at the bar, she left to go home and she was never seen again. No body, nothing. And David was the one that brought her over to the Panthers. David Horowitz, that is. And got her set up to be their bookkeeper. And he blamed, this is my opinion, he blamed himself for her disappearance and her probably death. And what happened to her? Who knows? Because there was never any sign of anything about what happened. It could have been that she was drunk walking home and passed out or some guy grabbed her or she drowned in the water. I mean, who knows? I do not know anything. I cannot imagine why Panthers would do anything because she used to do their bookkeeping, unless she knew something that she should not have known. I do not know. SM: Well, I know that... Was not her name Mary Van Petton? Patton? RP: I do not know, maybe. SM: I think it was a different name. But he became a conservative as a result of this experience. RP: Well, he hates the Panthers. He probably hates them as much as he hates me, because I did so well in that... I have debated him a few times and people love what I say, and they tell him to shut up. SM: Yeah. We had him on our campus a couple times. But looking at these individuals, you have got to admit that Huey Newton does not have a good reputation, from all the- RP: Huey Newton is not somebody that I loved. He's a high-liver. And he used Panther money. He had a penthouse apartment, he used designer drugs like coke and various other things. A lot of white people did that too, a lot of movie stars did that too, but they did not get harassed by the police. And he was a very good speaker at times, from what I hear. I have heard him speak a few times just on tape, but I do not really know him and I am not into bad-mouthing him or protecting him, because I do not really know. He was West Coast. I only really knew the East Coast- SM: The other one that has a really bad name is H. Rap Brown, who's actually in jail for the rest of his life, I think. RP: Yeah. Well, I am not going to get into him, but I do not know him at all. SM: But Stokely Carmichael seemed to have a lot of respect- RP: Yeah, he was. SM: ... because of the fact he had been involved with SNCC. RP: He was in SNCC. I only heard him speak a few times, and he was very bright, I thought. SM: And then Kathleen Cleaver seems to have a lot of respect. RP: Very respectful of people too. SM: And Eldridge is a sad story in its own right. RP: Yeah. Well, Eldridge became later a Moonie. You know that? SM: Yes. RP: I saw him, he came to the University of Vermont. The Moonies brought him here. And so, I went out in the parking lot waiting for him to come because I wanted him to sign this book I had. And he looked at the book, it was one of the old Panther books. He says, "I ain't signing that shit." He was really pissed. And he got into crack cocaine. I mean, he became a really bad drug addict. And anybody who's a really bad drug addict at some point, you cannot take them [inaudible]. SM: The killing of Fred Hampton was a sad thing too, in Chicago. RP: Yeah. SM: Because they said he was [inaudible]. RP: Plus, the cops did that. Right? SM: Yeah. RP: And he was a very bright young man. SM: In the materials I have here, you were at all these events. RP: I was not at the killing of Fred Hampton. SM: No, no, no, no. But the Free Huey... There were Free Huey- RP: Free Huey, off the pigs. SM: Yeah. And then also Free Bobby at New Haven. And then- RP: I was there. SM: And then Free the 21 in New York City. RP: I was there. SM: So those are all major trials. RP: Yeah. Well, I loved the Panthers, number one, and so did all my friends. That is the other thing. It was a big social thing for us. And I loved Afeni Shakur, I still love Afeni Shakur. I remember Tupac Shakur when he was a little baby. And I remember the grandfather. In fact, grandfather, who was his old man, a very dignified man. My politics, my (19)60s politics, I grew up with them. They were there from the beginning of my politics. So it was like I matured with them and I knew them from places and from events. The East Coast Panthers. Then at times, I went out because we started up a San Francisco newsreel. They said, "Hey, you got to come out here and make a film." We said, "You better make your own films. We're going to send some people out and you're going to find some filmmakers, and you're going to learn how to use cameras because we cannot be every place." SM (01:59:34): You talked about COINTELPRO. My interview this morning, we talked about it as well. I had another person I interviewed this morning from California. Explain in your own words what was COINTELPRO and what did it do to activists that... In one of the articles that I read on you, [inaudible] talked about Jean Seberg the actress. Then the experience you had with Dr. Curtis Powell, that you had to walk with him into his apartment. What they tried to do to Bobby Seal and Kathleen Cleaver and the Yippies and SNCC and Southern Christian Leadership Conference. RP: I do not know anything about SCLC or SNCC, really. The counterintelligence program, you should... Have you ever interviewed any FBI agents that- SM: No, I cannot. I know if anybody would ever speak to me. RP: Yeah, I know somebody that will. SM: Oh. RP: He is a very important guy. SM: Okay. RP: You got to get my DVD. I have two FBI agents on my DVD. You will not get better talks than that. You can use any material you want from that. SM: All right. RP: The DVD, I have one of the most important FBI agents, and he's written a book exposing the FBI. And the other one is the one that is dead now, that opened up the case in San Francisco on the Panthers, because he was in the San Francisco office and he was assigned it. And he just sat there and he wrote up what happened every day. It was very boring to him. The informers would come in and he would get all these notes and he would just put it in a report. The thing was that he was a great writer. And he told funny jokes and he made fun of people, and he was sexist and he was racist. He wrote all these reports to send to his fellow FBI agent that he knew from the academy when he went to the academy. And he told me right in my DVD, he said, "I was writing the reports for them." They said, "Keep them coming. They're hilarious." He's dead now. I give you permission to use whatever you want from any of my DVD. If you want an FBI agent who wants to talk about it. SM: Because you see, the book is about the boomer generation and the young people that grew up, but they all experienced all this. They all saw these things. They became influenced by it. And the people that are going to read these oral histories, they're going to be... Well, they may not be reading history books. So, if you could, in just a few words, talk about what COINTELPRO or what they did to the actress Jean Seberg- RP: Okay. Well- SM: And- RP: What COINTELPRO did was it tried to destroy people's lives. It tried to make people look bad. It tried to embarrass people. It told lies and set up situations so that people sometimes could not face the media getting hold of these things. It was, the main thing, was the counterintelligence program to destroy, in this case, the Black Panther party. I mean, they have a counterintelligence program to destroy, let us say, the Young Lord's party or to destroy the Weathermen. The counterintelligence [02:03:26] used dirty tricks to destroy people and the FBI was pretty good at it. And in some cases, they were not very good. But with the Black Panthers, they would send out letters to people saying, "Beware. So-and-so just reported you to the police." Or "Beware. Jean Seberg is carrying a Black baby." When it was born, somebody saw the fetus and it was Black. " And we're going to feed her to the Hollywood gossip columnist..." What was her name? Jean Haber? No. Jean somebody. And some people think that that was one of the reasons that she may have killed herself, if she did kill herself, because she was embarrassed about all that, Jean Seberg. SM: Was it a Black fetus? RP: I do not know. I was not there. SM: Oh, I read it was a white fetus. She went around with it or something like that. RP: Jean Seberg went around with the fetus? SM: Yes, she did. RP: Where did you get that? SM: I read it in one of the... I will have to email that to you too. It was in one of the articles. RP: Well, you cannot believe everything you... I mean, I am not- SM: Yeah. RP: But what they did is they tried to make people look bad and embarrass people. That is the main thing about it. And sometimes, people could not take it and destroyed their lives and sometimes they killed themselves. Or sometimes they dropped out of being political people because they could not take their families knowing about [inaudible]. SM: What always amazes me is that we do live in a democracy where liberty is always protected. And of course, liberty is divine, is freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion. But here we have this COINTELPRO group that survived through '75. And then we have the FBI and the CIA, that have been infiltrating groups for years, and they destroyed many lives. In a quote that you put down here is that, "Democracy is based on openness and the existence of a secret policy, secret lists of dissident citizens, violates the spirit of democracy." That was a quote from you. RP: I cannot remember half the things I say or wrote. SM: Well, I was looking- RP: I have been looking forward to getting your book. Is it a book you're doing or what? SM: Yeah. You have time for a couple more questions? RP: Yeah, sure. SM: Yeah. You have been teaching, co-teaching, a course at the (19)60s at Burlington College for a while? RP: Yeah. SM: How- RP: Not a co-teacher, I was teaching it alone. SM: Yeah. How do the students react to courses like this, and how does the administration at the university respond to anything of the (19)60s? Because my experience has been that universities are afraid of the term "activism" due to the memories and the lessons from the (19)60s. RP: Where do you teach? SM: Oh, I used to be at Westchester University, not anymore. RP: Okay. Well, let me tell you, where I teach... Well, I am off right now. But I had been teaching at Burlington College in Vermont. You know who our dean is? SM: No, I do not. RP: Do you know who Bernie Sanders- SM: Oh, I know Bernie. Yes. Former congressman. RP: Well, his wife was our dean. SM: Oh, okay. That speaks for itself. RP: But I was teaching there before she became the dean, and she actually has been very rude to me. SM: Oh, no. RP: And she actually is one of the reasons I am not teaching there now. But do not say anything about that. SM: Oh, no, I will not. RP: But it's a big long story. But I think I was ready to retire anyway. SM: Yeah. What did the student protest movement teach universities in the (19)60s? What do you feel the universities learned from it, and maybe what have they forgotten? RP: This is how I do my class. I give a little talk in the beginning, whatever the subject matter is, and then I show them one of the newsreel films. Because the pictures and seeing the real thing, there's nothing can beat that from that time. So, they see a film every time, and we have a discussion before the film, and we have a discussion after the film, and then they have to write impressions and write papers. That is about how all my classes are. And luckily, I have the whole collection of newsreel films. And the reason that newsreel films are so good is they're not slick Hollywood films. They're like real life. They're a little jumpy, they're running in the street with a camera. Cops are chasing us or whatever it is. And they cannot believe some of the stuff. They love it. They love those films because it's like real life. SM: Well, the students love them, but do the universities love them? RP: Yeah, but I am telling you where I teach, I teach at [inaudible] College. The other thing is, the universities love our films because who's the person that buys 90 percent of the films that I sell? The universities. SM: Yes. RP: Cornell, Harvard, Syracuse, Princeton, NYU, UCLA, Santa Barbara, SF State. I mean, all these schools have collections of our films because nobody else has done (19)60s like we have done them. We have done the burning of... One of the most radical events that ever happened in Santa Barbara, my first year of college, I went to Santa Barbara. And of course, I was not there when the burning of the Bank of America happened, that was one of the first radical things in Santa Barbara, was all these blonde crew cut boys and little blonde flipped girls burned down the Bank of America in Santa Barbara. Never happened before on our campus. SM: Why would they do that? RP: You know story? SM: Well, I know that it happened, but I cannot remember why. RP: Because there was a professor, they were going to fire a professor that they liked. And he was a political person. That started it. I mean, there were other issues, I am sure. SM: Are there any myths about the boomer generation that you would like to comment on from your point of view? Any myth? RP: Like what? SM: Oh, that is why I am asking. Are there any myths? RP: Tell me what you mean by a myth. SM: A myth is a story that is- RP: I know, that is not true. But give me an example of something [inaudible]. SM: A hundred percent of the students were activists. That is a myth. It only about 10 percent. RP: That is not even a truth. SM: Right. RP: I do not know about myths, I guess. SM: Are there any truths about the boomer generation and their times that are still being used to mislead the American public about the times when boomers were young, through today? And that might be linked to the criticisms that the era that the boomers grew up in is often attacked as the era where all our problems started. Because of drugs, sex, rock and roll. RP: Rock and roll. SM: Long hair, lack of respect for authority. Challenging your point of view, the welfare state, the isms and all the other stuff. RP: What's the question around those again? SM: The question is, are there any truths about the boomer generation, their times, that are still being used to mislead? RP: Oh, I do not know about still being used because I am not really... I do not hang out with people that think like that, so I do not hear that so much. And I do not hear it on TV. I watch a lot of TV. And when I travel, I am talking... For example, three months ago, I got a grant to go to Mississippi to study Mississippi and Tennessee, but mainly Mississippi, to study the Civil Rights period. They're community college teachers, I am with like 40 community college teachers. And when you're teaching community college, you're taking for granted that these students are probably not as wealthy as regular university students, maybe. Or maybe they're not as smart. I mean, I do not know what people would think myth-wise. But the teachers there were some of the most brilliant teachers I have ever met. They talked in a language that the students could understand. And it was really interesting. I spent one week with them living, sleeping, getting up in the morning, eating, traveling. We got on a bus and we went out to the delta and we went and parked in front of the store where Emmett Till went... Where supposedly the girl was there that he whistled at. We hung out there. We went to Fannie Lou Hamer's house. We did all this stuff. And all those people there were community college teachers. I mean, they knew as much, or if not more, politics than I did, some of them. And they were brilliant. They had none of those myths that you would even think about. I never heard anything come out of any of their mouths. And they were from Texas, they were from Florida. Just community colleges. They were just like normal students who got their degree and went to teach in a community college. SM: When did the (19)60s begin and end, in your opinion? And what was the watershed moment? RP: Oh, God. Well, I do not know. I am a little confusing around that issue because you got to realize that I grew up political. All my life, I was a political person because I got it from... My parents were political. I knew nothing. I sometimes say I was brainwashed into it because that is what I knew. And that is how they acted and the way that they dealt with Black people or workers or anybody was always like this wonderful way. Did they drink? My mother did not, but my father sometimes would have a beer at night when he got home. He was a working man. I grew up in a working-class family and so, for me, I never had any pretensions of anything except a certain type of life. And you told the truth and you worked hard and you tried to help other people. So, I do not know. I mean, I do not know in my world that I ever actually encountered that. What I did encounter at some point, one of the first things that made me rebel... I do not know. It's hard to say. I do not know. I mean, I grew up in LA and Hollywood. I mean, it's very different than growing up in a normal place. SM: That is okay for your answer. Some people give a specific event or period or whatever for the beginning and the end of the (19)60s, in their opinion. RP: Well, I mean, miniskirts was not like the (19)60s - Miniskirts was not like the (19)60s, was it? SM: Yeah, that was the (19)60s. RP: What year was that? SM: It was around (19)63, (19)64. RP: Okay. Well, one of the things that happened to me, I always liked clothes, was when I was teaching school in New Jersey and the teacher sent me home from school because my skirt was too short. The teacher told me to go home and change. What's that? SM: That is okay. And that was a watershed moment. RP: That was a big watershed moment. And that is when I quit teaching. SM: Another thing... RP: That is when I decided to move to New York and I looked for that apartment. I told you that story, and then I... SM: Yes. RP: But that was a personal attack upon me. The other thing that that school did, here's another thing, the war in Vietnam, now I am thinking about it, the war in Vietnam was going on, and this is in New Jersey. This was in North Bergen, New Jersey, which is the town that I was living in at the time. And the Jersey Journal, I think was the name of the newspaper, but I am not sure. But some local newspaper sent out to all the schools these petitions that say we support our boys in Vietnam. And we were supposed to get all of our students to sign it. Well, first of all, I left it there. I said, if anybody wants to sign it, you can sign it. But then later that afternoon, when they were supposed to turn them in to the office, later that afternoon, I was walking through the office and nobody was there. I grabbed all the petitions and threw them away. So that was pretty intense for me. I knew I was quitting. I think that was probably the day I was quitting, I think. I did not care. SM: Well, one of the things that you discussed when Newsreel did their films, is revolution is a term that was used by the new left, and the Panthers used it all the time, too. Do you feel though, in the eyes of many, that that term "revolution" hurts the legitimacy in the eyes of critics? RP: Oh, I never worry about things like that, because what does the word revolution mean? How would you define it? SM: Like the American Revolution. RP: Right. That is a positive thing, is not it? SM: Yes, it is. RP: I did not understand what you said about critics, then. SM: Well, for example, when we did the... In 1976 with the bicentennial, there was a group that we brought to campus that was under the leadership of Jeremy Rifkin, and it was the People's Bicentennial Commission. And the basic premise was that the founding fathers were revolutionaries. Well, that really upset people in Ohio, because we had a program with William Pells, one of the professors who came in to talk about the revolutionaries. And we had the Daughters from the American Revolution there saying, how dare you say that these were radicals? And it was a Midwest, and they were very upset with the use of the term "revolution" and "radical". So that was just an example. RP: Well, I do not know. I do not really know because I am never really fussy about certain things. I am more of an activist. I just do my thing and I have my friends and we do it together. And I am not trying to get any place or be any place, or whatever happened to me was basically not necessarily planned. SM: We took a group of students to Washington in and to talk about the year 1968, and we met with Senator Muskie, and we thought he was going to talk about the convention of (19)68. And the question was this, that the students asked him, and I will give you his response after I get yours, the question was, due to the divisions that were so intense in the Boomer generation during the (19)60s and (19)70s, do you feel that this generation of 74 million will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, with bitterness and dislike and hatred toward opponents, similar to what happened during the Civil War in the areas of Black versus white, male versus female, gay versus straight, pro-war, anti-war, pro-troops, anti-troops. And that was a question we asked, and we waited for his response. RP: What would he say? SM: I want to hear your response first. Do you think we have a problem? Even within the Black Panthers, is there any healing or is not healing necessary? RP: They have had healing, yes. Panthers have actually had a lot of healing stuff. And I think you have to have some type of healing stuff go on, somewhat. But you cannot have healing stuff for people who are dangerous and can kill people or kill other people. So, I do not know. I do not really know, because I have never had very many enemies to tell you the truth. For example, I did not like, at the end of Eldridge Cleaver's life, he came to UVM and he was working... The Moonies were paying his salary. I thought that was disgusting. And he said things that were disgusting things, and I would never go to see him again after that. And then he was found in an alleyway doing crack. He ruined his life. He ruined everything that he originally stood for. The people would put out bottles in Berkeley while he was being a crackhead and stuff. And people have picked them up and turned the money and the money went into the free clinic. And he would send out his guys to pick up earlier in the morning to take the bottles so they could keep the money. So there's things like that. I would just ignore the guy. That is the most I could say. He was important at his time when things were happening in the beginning, and then the drugs took over and it made him a bad person, I guess. SM: There's a couple of quotes here that I want to put in the record. These are your quotes. This is from you: "We produce various films that these groups could use to tell their stories and to use in organizing their own communities and workplaces, hopefully serving as a catalyst for social change." Another very important quote from you, and again, this is for the record: " The only news we saw was on TV and we knew who owned the stations. We decided to make films that would show another side of the news. It was clear that the established forms of media were not going to approach those subjects which threatened their very existence." And then the last one here was... RP: Where did you get that quote from? SM: I got that quote from... I would have to send that, too. RP: No, the reason I am asking, I agree with that statement, by the way it is not that I do not disagree with it. What I think is the language of that- SM: Hold on one second because my tape is running out here. Hold on, one second. Okay. Let me get my... Bear with me. RP: Okay, I am not rushing. SM: Okay. RP: I am doing my taxes, believe it or not. SM: Taxes? RP: Yeah. I screwed up. SM: Oh, my goodness. RP: And my whole living room floor has about 30 piles. SM: Oh no. RP: I am not doing it right now while I am talking to you, but I have been doing it for three days. I thought I only had to do it around certain business stuff or something else. But now my accountant told me I only have to do it around my film business. SM: Oh. RP: So, I have been working for four days on all this stuff because I save every piece of paper, but I do not file it right, organize it. It is all in one thing. So, I have been filing, I have been redoing things. So, I am looking at my living room. It is just unreal. But I think that quote that you just read to me, should I go on? SM: Yes. RP: I know that I said that we knew who owns whatever it was. I cannot remember exactly what you said. SM: Yeah, "I know who owns the stations." RP: Yes. I am wondering where specifically you got that. When did I say that? Because I am wondering, it sounds like ... I believe it totally. I could have said it, but you know what? So, could a lot of other people in Newsreel said it. SM: Yeah. RP: I could have picked it up from something that somebody else said. SM: Yeah. I actually have all the notes here. Hold on one second. I might be able to find that. Oh, here it is. I think this is it. No, that is it. I might have to email you that too. I will email you. RP: Yeah. Well, you know what? Because that sounds like to me in the old days, I would say, "Right on." It was a right on quote. But it's sounds a little sophisticated for how I talk. But then maybe sometimes I talk like that. SM: Well, the last quote here is another one, and that is that, "Newsreel worked to expand the awareness of events and situations relevant to shaping the movement. Our films try to analyze, not just cover. They explore the realities of the media as part of the system always ignores." RP: It is part that the system always ignores. I could have said that though. I do not know. It is definitely what we think about Newsreel. But it also could have been ... Because I could have been sitting around with a group of my friends who were in Newsreel and that could have been something from one of our leaflets that we wrote or something. I do not know. SM: I am almost done here. But what happens at Panther reunions? How many come to those, number one? And do you keep track of any of the Panthers who died when they were young and how many continued to fight as they got older? RP: Okay. Well, I have gone to lots of reunions. I have gone to Washington DC, I have gone to San Francisco, I have gone to New York. I have gone to smaller reunions that have to do with specific chapters. When I go, by the way, I like to hang out with Kathleen Cleaver because I really love her. She is a great talker, very bright. And I have got a few other people, this guy Billy Jennings ... Are you really interested in Panthers? SM: Oh yeah. I have very interested in Panthers. I got all of Bobby Seale's books. I got – RP: All right. Let me tell you a website to go to. SM: Oh, okay. RP: This guy is the most brilliant, smartest. He is the Panther archivist. SM: Now, where is my pen? I got too much stuff here. RP: It is okay. I went and got a pencil. I do not even have it anymore. And I have [inaudible]. SM: Okay, I got it. I got a pen. RP: All right. His name is Billy Jennings is his name. SM: Billy... RP: Jennings. J-E-N-N-I-N-G-S. He is out of San Francisco. No, he is out of Sacramento. But his website is, write this down exactly how I tell you. I-T-S. SM: I-T-S. RP: It is about, A-B-O-U-T, time, T-I-M-E, B-P-P. SM: B? RP: B as in Black Panther Party. SM: Right. RP: P-P. His website is, it is About Time B-P-P, I believe. SM: All right. RP: His name is Billy Jennings. And he is the smartest, he's the best archivist of the Black Panther Party. SM: And how old is he? RP: He is younger than me. But he is married to a woman now who opened the one of the Black Panther free clinics. She's a doctor. And she is white. And I think they both had separate families at some point. They have been married for a really a long time. And he is basically, for the last 20 years, one of the main organizers of pulling the Panther reunions together. And they are brilliant. And he is brilliant. He is very smart. He knows the history better than anybody. SM: Does he go out and speak on college campuses? RP: Yeah, he does a lot of stuff. He is fabulous. SM: Oh, wow. RP: He is smart. He is interesting. He knows everything, does trips. And he is not a poor guy, I do not know what he is, but I know that he travels quite a bit. He knows everybody. And if you do not get the website, you would have to email me and I will have to look up, maybe I said it wrong, the site. But you could find out everybody who died, how they died. You can find out about all the programs. You can find out each chapter, the New Orleans chapter, the Sacramento chapter, the whatever. You can find out how many people. My friend Michael Singer who was in Newsreel, and he is writing a book about his, I do not know what he is writing about, maybe his life. But he wanted ask some questions about Panthers. He wanted to know how many Panthers have been killed. So, I sent him to Billy. If anybody asks me a Panther question that I do not know, which are probably 90 percent of them, I send them to Billy. He knows it all, and he is the main organizer of all the reunions. Pulls it together. Very good. SM: Before I ask my very last question, that is that historic picture of Stokely Carmichael with Dr. King, where he's telling Dr. King that his time has passed, that the new Black power is now taking over for non-violent protest, which was with Dr. King and Dr. Abernathy and Bayard Rustin were into. But what what's interesting is when you look at that particular scene from a Black Panther, who was a major person in SNCC, which Stokely was first. It's almost like Dr. King saying to Thurgood Marshall after the Brown versus Board of Education decision was passed in 1954, that your gradualist approach to getting this passed was ... Well, congratulations, but pass the wand because that gradualist approach is no longer going to work because we want our freedom now. And that is what Dr. King said to nonviolent protests and then later on, Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and the group were linked with Stokely Carmichael. And he said, "Your time has passed." And that was before they were even 40 years old. But there's a lot of history there, an awful lot of history. And of course, Malcolm challenged Bayard Ruston in a debate before he died in 1965 too, about the change in Black power. My last question is, when you look at this, do you have any thoughts as a person on the generation that was born between '46 and (19)64, and that means Black, white, male, female, gay, straight, this generation that grew up after World War II, are there any thoughts you have on this generation overall? RP: Well, that is not my generation. SM: Well, I know that is not your generation, but you lived and worked with them. RP: Yeah. That all seem very different than me. I feel like my friends, most of my friends are probably born after '46, and they just seem like one of ours, us. SM: Maybe it's because the spirit. Your spirit and their spirit are united in so many different causes. RP: Yeah. Well, that is how most of my friends ... People who are my friends, that is how it is. I played poker with a group of women, and we did not know each other until we all came to Vermont. And we're all involved in a million different diverse things, but we all have this politic that is really a good, clear politic. And it did not make any difference when we were born or anything. SM: And your activism goes way beyond the Black Panthers according to what I heard. RP: The Panthers is only a small thing in there. SM: Yeah. Just list a couple of activist causes you're involved in before we close. RP: In Bethlehem? SM: Yes. RP: Middle East? SM: Mm-hmm. RP: Israel and Palestinian, I am in a sister city group in Burlington. We started it with the first sister city that took a Palestinian city, Bethlehem, the Jewish city of Arad with Burlington. And we have a three-way relationship with the three cities. And that was the first that happened. There's something called Sister City International, which hundreds of American cities take cities all over the world to be their sister city. And we knew we would never get a pass in the city council if we had a Palestinian city. So we took a Jewish city and a Palestinian city, and it passed in Burlington City Council. So that is one that I just went to a meeting last night. I cannot stand. It's a losing of that thing. It's very difficult because we cannot even bring exchange students from Bethlehem. They cannot go to the Tel Aviv airport to come here. SM: Geez. RP: We cannot bring doctors or medicine to send there. We can bring our things to Arad, which is the near the Dead Sea, the city. But they do not need that stuff so much. So it's really horrible. So that is one thing that I work with in Burlington. And what was your question again? SM: It's the other areas of activism you have been involved in. RP: Activism. Well, then for a while, I am not now anymore, but after the sixties or coming out of part of the sixties was the woman's movement somewhat. And what else would I do? Who do I give my money? Legalization of marijuana. I do not smoke now, but I am for legalization of it. SM: It's a big issue in California. RP: Yeah. Well, it's a big issue every place. SM: Right. RP: Every place. It makes our kids be criminals. That is what I cannot stand about it. And what else do they give money to? Or I still give money to ... Giving money is different than getting involved. I am not involved in the legalization of marijuana, but I send money to when they send me one of their letters. I do not know. I cannot think. SM: But you have been a lifelong activist though in many things. RP: Well, race is the key thing. But I live in white Vermont. That is the problem. There's a lot of racist stuff that goes on here. And in Burlington, we have now become one of ... They have a lot of people from African countries that the US is set up what's called Resettlement Cities and Burlington's one of them. So, we have Bosnians, we have Africans, we have people from Iraq. We have got, oh, people from ... We had a few Cubans and people, but they cannot take the weather here. It's too cold for them. And so, they got transferred to warmer places. Impossible. But I am not working with it. I know some of them, the people, they're in my classes and stuff, but I am not really working it. They get a lot of help from resettlement programs around here. I work with film stuff. Right now, we have an International Film Festival that is happening starting next week, so next week I get to ... And what I do is I care about poor people a lot. For example, I get food from places for the Food Shelf. I go to the apple orchard a friend of mine owns, and I picked a lot of apples that he gave me and I brought it to the Food Shelf for poor people. Just things that I do not do it all the time, it's just something moves me about certain things. SM: Yeah. You... RP: Vermont's a really poor place. A lot of us have money and stuff, but there's a lot of poor white people here. And it's really pitiful. A lot of old people that are starving to death and freezing to death in their houses. SM: That is sad. RP: I am not doing anything about it, to tell you the truth. I donate something, but I am not really... SM: Are these people who did not plan for the future? RP: Are what? SM: Are these people that did not plan for the future? RP: No. Vermont is one of the poorest states in the country, number one. It looks so pretty on Christmas cards with skiing and stuff, but it's a very poor place. And for people who, there's no jobs, there's no factories here. There's no big cities. There's food stamps. There's not even stamps anymore. You now get it something that looks like a credit card. So, it does not embarrass you when you go with your kids. It looks like you're paying for it with a credit card. But you have money on a card that looks like a credit card. SM: You said, and this is it, you said the camera is a weapon. Define what you mean by that. RP: Well, you use a weapon to be able to have things ... If you take a picture of something that is horrible of a GI ... Well, for example, whoever took that picture of that GI burning down that Vietnamese woman who was holding her child tightly in her arms, burns down her hot by lighting it with a Zippo lighter, that destroyed an image of what the US soldiers were doing in Vietnam for thousands of people when they saw that. That one image on TV, that was a very important image. SM: I think that was Morley Safer. RP: Is that who it was? SM: I think it was Morley Safer, 60 Minutes, I think. RP: Yeah, it could have been that. See, I do not remember those type of things. You got a good memory for that. I remember the image. I could see him right now. I can see every movement he is doing. And I can see the woman there in her shed crying ... Not in her shed outside of her draw little house or maybe her depot where she kept her rice. I read into it, whatever I read into it. SM: You also lived in a commune for a while. What was that communal experience? RP: There's my best friend still to this day. SM: Huh. RP: I am serious. That was great. I loved it. You know what? I got up in the morning and guess what? Jimmy Nelsey, who taught economics of the University of Vermont, was cooking us breakfast. And there was this other guy whose name I cannot remember, would take the garbage down to the end of the driveway for his garbage time. And I love living with people. I love having people in my house. I like sharing stuff. And I was an only kid, so I did not have any sisters and brothers. SM: And that commune, how many years were you in the commune? RP: Oh, well, I was seen in Putney for maybe, let us say six months. And then, oh, I do not know, years. Let us see. Rain was born and Rain went to grammar school, junior high. I do not know how long. It was a long time. But it changed. It turned out at the end, there were four of us only at the end. SM: With your kids. Was there any generation gap at all? RP: I have one daughter and well, she's old now. She's in her thirties. And Rain is in her thirties. What do you mean generation gap? SM: The generation gap in the sixties, in the seventies, was differences over politics and over the war and counter culture and all that other stuff between [inaudible]. RP: Oh no, they both have good politics. It might be a choice over music. Grateful Dead was big time for both of them. SM: That is a good choice. RP: That is a best choice. I love them myself. But my daughter got so into it that she wanted to go off on the road and follow them around, and then would get in trouble and I would have to bail her out of trouble and da, da, da. It was not so much fun for me. But she's fine. I have a granddaughter now. But the sixties, I never got arrested in my life. As I told you, my mother said, "Do not get arrested, escape." And I took that to mean that for real. SM: It's interesting because Dr. King used to always say that if you really want to stand up for something, you cannot be afraid to be arrested and go to jail for it. And – RP: My mother says, "You get in jail and you waste around and you're not doing what you should be doing." SM: Right. Different philosophy. This is it. And that is, what do you think the lasting legacy will be of the generation that grew up after World War II, the boomers, that were sewn down the sixties and seventies. Many of them are Black Panthers and people from all walks life. What do you think when the best history books or historians or sociologists write about this period after the 74 million have passed on? What do you think they might be saying about the generation? RP: I do not know. You could probably answer that better than me, you're a writer. I do not know. It depends on how the stories are told. Because for example, there's this TV film that was made, it's called The Hippies. Did you see it? SM: No, I have not. And I am going to check it out. RP: Well, they interview me. They come to my house. They made me look really good. They had a really good camera guy who knew how to put the right type of plastic on the window. So, the light came in beautifully. They did good makeup job. They did. They really knew what they were doing. They had no politics really on some level. They did not know about anything, but they let me talk. And then I decided to talk about some things I wanted to talk about that were not really necessarily true. And one of them had to do with LSD. We were talking at U UCLA that there was a program at UCLA while I was at UCLA that one of my friends, Lenny Leck, who's no longer, he's died, but he was a psychology professor there. And I was in the class. He was our teaching assistant, and he used to do a lot of LSD at UCLA because they had a program run by the psych department and maybe the army to see what it actually did to people. It was under lab conditions. It was a legalized program, which I never did. But I wanted to talk about how it was legal in those days and about this program and stuff, and the importance of it. So, I knew they would not put it on the camera unless I said I did. And I did not. I lied about it for the camera. And it really got me in trouble because that is the thing that everybody in my town remembered. Everybody loved the program, but I should not have lied about it. I cannot remember what your question was. SM: Just the lasting legacy. What – RP: Oh, the legacy. So sometimes, like I said something, I do not know what the last lasting legacy is for that group. We tried to have a better life. We wanted a better life for everyone. We wanted to have all the best for our kids, for every nationality, every race. We wanted there to be equality. We wanted there to be an end of war. We wanted there to be peace and justice and all those things that we wanted from the sixties, from that period of time and a lot of us worked for it and tried to live it, and some of us still do. SM: Well, that is a perfect answer. And I want to thank you. Somehow in some way, I have got to get two pictures of you, because I have to have pictures. RP: What about from my website? Can you go to my website? SM: Yeah, I can go to your website. RP: Take a look. I do not know what's on there. I do not know. SM: Well, I will check it out. I know there's a good ... Anyways – RP: Have you been – SM: I do not need it right now, but I do need two pictures between now and Christmas. RP: Well look at my website first and see if you can take anything from that. SM: Okay. RP: And if they're not good, there's a whole section there of photographs. SM: All right. RP: That start with, oh dear, I have not looked at them. SM: I know there's a picture of you at an airport. I know that. RP: At an airport? SM: Yeah. You're sleeping on luggage. RP: No, that was not at an airport. You think that was at an airport? SM: I thought either an airport or a bus station. I do not know. RP: That is interesting. I wonder what it is. SM: You were with your girlfriend. There's a girlfriend there. Anyways... RP: A girlfriend? I am going to my website right now. I think I was sleeping, because I used to fall asleep all the time. I was so tired and if I got some place where I could sleep, I would sleep. SM: Yep. Well, that is a picture of you sleeping. And then there's a picture of you awake, just two pictures of you with two different females. And you're in looks like a bus station or airport. RP: Well, I am going to go to that site and try to ... If I can even get my computer to work right. SM: Back then or now? RP: No, no. Maybe two years, three years ago. SM: Oh, geez. RP: And they said these commi something. I cannot remember what it was. It was on a bunch of really right-wing websites. I am trying to go to my website. I cannot get to my website on my computer. SM: All right. Well, I guess that is it. RP: All right. But that picture, that was at the alternative media conference. And we have just gotten driven for two days or something to get to Ann Arbor, and I was falling asleep there. SM: Huh. RP: I have been known to fall asleep in very important places. I am tired. SM: All right. RP: I just fell right out. SM: Well, Roz, thank you very much for spending this time, we went over... (End of Interview) Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Roz Payne Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Payne, Roz B. (Roz Berkman), 1940- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Newsreel (Firm); Political activists--United States; Payne, Roz B. (Roz Berkman), 1940--Interviews Description An account of the resource Roz Payne is an educator, activist, and founding member of an antiwar filmmakers group called Newsreel. She released a 12-hour DVD set titled <em>What We Want, What We Believe</em> on the Black Panthers. She has a Bachelor's degree from UCLA. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-10-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.157a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.157b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 144:08 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c4d6ad283d879cd2c57695386e5a9c2.jpg 5860cda47a6008db0ab4d7656d49a7bc https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7ac91c723b5a74c28b90c505f681c241.mp3 29eaf9c7e8446999500c3a3ce4fde1f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dennis Peron Date of Interview 2010-08-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 88:23 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dennis Peron (1945-2018) was an activist and businessman who became a leader in the movement for the legalization of cannabis. Peron served in the Air Force in Vietnam. After the war, he became a Yippie and he also supported gay rights. He sold cannabis from storefronts in the Castro and advocated for medical cannabis. Peron also co-founded the San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club. Additionally, he co-authored California Proposition 215 which got passed in 1996. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dennis Peron (1945-2018) was an activist and businessman who became a leader in the movement for the legalization of cannabis. Peron served in the Air Force in Vietnam. After the war, he became a Yippie and he also supported gay rights. He sold cannabis from storefronts in the Castro and advocated for medical cannabis. Peron also co-founded the San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club. Additionally, he co-authored California Proposition 215 which got passed in 1996. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;San Francisco; Bay Area; Gay Rights; Human Rights Movement; Ronald Reagan; Vietnam Memorial; Medical marijuana.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">San Francisco; Bay Area; Gay Rights; Human Rights Movement; Ronald Reagan; Vietnam Memorial; Medical marijuana.</span> Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Marijuana—Law and legislation; Gay rights; Peron, Dennis--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dennis Peron Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Peron, Dennis ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Marijuana—Law and legislation; Gay rights; Peron, Dennis--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dennis Peron (1945-2018) was an activist and businessman who became a leader in the movement for the legalization of cannabis. Peron served in the Air Force in Vietnam. After the war, he became a Yippie and he also supported gay rights. He sold cannabis from storefronts in the Castro and advocated for medical cannabis. Peron also co-founded the San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club. Additionally, he co-authored California Proposition 215 which got passed in 1996. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.158a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.158b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 88:23 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/865b94d1d82b207fb09a54bb74849eb2.jpg 3673e92aab85ac7422f80866fdc1c776 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/14d1edbfbc93f86fe9853a30be860be5.mp3 c38f7e1829afc127e8c6cf0b28b26324 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Toddy Puller Date of Interview 2010-05-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 105:11 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Linda Todd Puller is a former Democratic member of the Virginia State Senate. Puller represented District 36 from 1999 to 2016 and served in the Virginia House of Delegates from 1992 to 2000. Before she began her political career, she married the Lewis Puller, Jr., the most decorated Marine in American history. Puller has a Bachelor's degree in Art History from Mary Washington College.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,3355443],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Toddy Puller is a former Democratic member of the Virginia State Senate. Puller represented District 36 from 1999 to 2016 and served in the Virginia House of Delegates from 1992 to 2000. Before she began her political career, she married Lewis Puller, Jr., the most decorated Marine in American history. Puller has a Bachelor's degree in Art History from Mary Washington College.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Women's Rights Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Gay/Lesbian Rights movement; LGBT; Anti-War Movement; Baby boom generation; Black Panthers; Vietnam War; The nineteen-sixties; Lewis Burwell Puller Jr.; Veterans.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Women's Rights Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Gay/Lesbian Rights movement; LGBT; Anti-War Movement; Baby boom generation; Black Panthers; Vietnam War; The nineteen-sixties; Lewis Burwell Puller Jr.; Veterans.</span> Subject LCSH Legislators—United States--Virginia; Democratic Party (Va.); Puller, Linda Todd--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Toddy Puller Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Puller, Linda Todd ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States--Virginia; Democratic Party (Va.); Puller, Linda Todd--Interviews Description An account of the resource Linda Todd Puller is a former Democratic member of the Virginia State Senate. Puller represented District 36 from 1999 to 2016 and served in the Virginia House of Delegates from 1992 to 2000. Before she began her political career, she married Lewis Puller, Jr., the most decorated Marine in American history. Puller has a Bachelor's degree in Art History from Mary Washington College. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.159a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.159b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 105:11 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7ee00fe4b58780b0c440ccdfd0650699.jpg 3e20d2cc300dedb615071f4480db2b98 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7db441c95503d621e49717b233272b9c.mp3 ef003ddb6cc3a3f03dafc547c567e8c9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tom Pauken Date of Interview 2009-12-21 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 109:57 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Tom Pauken is a businessman, lawyer, politician, member of the Republican Party, and the author of two books. He is a former member and chairman of the Texas Workforce Commission. Additionally, Pauken served as chairman on the Texas Republican Party and the Texas Task Force on Appraisal Reform. He received his Bachelor’s degree in political science from Georgetown University and his Juris Doctor degree from Southern Methodist University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Tom Pauken is a businessman, lawyer, politician, member of the Republican Party, and the author of two books. He is a former member and chairman of the Texas Workforce Commission. Additionally, Pauken served as chairman on the Texas Republican Party and the Texas Task Force on Appraisal Reform. He received his Bachelor’s degree in political science from Georgetown University and his Juris Doctor degree from Southern Methodist University.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;intellectual movement; Modern Conservatism; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Cambodia invasion; Young Americans for Freedom; Newt Gingrich; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; Goldwater.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Intellectual movement; Modern Conservatism; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Cambodia invasion; Young Americans for Freedom; Newt Gingrich; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; Goldwater.</span> Subject LCSH Lawyers; Politicians--United States--Texas; Republican Party (Tex.); Pauken, Tom--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tom Pauken Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Pauken, Tom ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Politicians--United States--Texas; Republican Party (Tex.); Pauken, Tom--Interviews Description An account of the resource Tom Pauken is a businessman, lawyer, politician, member of the Republican Party, and the author of two books. He is a former member and chairman of the Texas Workforce Commission. Additionally, Pauken served as chairman on the Texas Republican Party and the Texas Task Force on Appraisal Reform. He received his Bachelor’s degree in political science from Georgetown University and his Juris Doctor degree from Southern Methodist University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-12-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.160a: McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.160b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 109:57