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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Deanne Stillman
Date of Interview
2010-03-21
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
83:45
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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1 Microcassette
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Interview Format
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Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Deanne Stillman is a critically acclaimed author. She writes the “Letter from the West” column for the Los Angeles Review of Books and is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program. She authored several books and her work appears in many publications, including Los Angeles Review of Books, New York Times, and and Tin House. Stillman is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Deanne Stillman is a critically acclaimed author. She writes the “Letter from the West” column for the <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em> and is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program. She authored several books and her work appears in many publications, including <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, and <em>Tin House</em>. Stillman is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Timothy Leary; Rex Weiner; Woodstock; Anti-War Movement; Muslim; Socialist; Generation X; Native American; Battle of the Little Bighorn; Baby boom generation; Photographs; Kent State."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Timothy Leary; Rex Weiner; Woodstock; Anti-War Movement; Muslim; Socialist; Generation X; Native American; Battle of the Little Bighorn; Baby boom generation; Photographs; Kent State.</span>
Subject LCSH
Authors, American--20th century; Stillman, Deanne--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Title
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Interview with Deanne Stillman
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Stillman, Deanne ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
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Authors, American--20th century; Stillman, Deanne--Interviews
Description
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Deanne Stillman is a critically acclaimed author. She writes the “Letter from the West” column for the <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em> and is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program. She authored several books and her work appears in many publications, including <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, and <em>Tin House</em>. Stillman is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-03-21
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.162
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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83:45
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
David Underhill
Date of Interview
2010-09-27
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
172:51
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"David Underhill is a journalist, writer and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States, and was schooled mainly in eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the Harvard Crimson. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the Southern Courier, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,6710886],"15":"Arial"}">David Underhill is a journalist, writer, and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States and was schooled mainly in the eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the <em>Harvard Crimson</em>. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the <em>Southern Courier</em>, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Harvard University; Student from Democratic Society(SDS); Todd Gitlin; Cuban Missile Crisis; Columbia University; Red Diaper Babies; Communist Manifesto; Baby boom generation; Activism"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Harvard University; Students for a Democratic Society (SDS); Todd Gitlin; Cuban Missile Crisis; Columbia University; Red Diaper Babies; Communist Manifesto; Baby boom generation; Activism</span>
Subject LCSH
Journalists; Authors, American--20th century; Political activists--United States; Underhill, David--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: David Underhill
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So
Date of interview: 27 September 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:04):
Testing, one, two. Well David, thank you very much. It has been a while getting ahold of you, and that is my fault. But I finally did, and first question I want to ask is, how did you become who you are? Talk a little about your early years, where you grew up, your high school, before you went off to, I guess Columbia. Maybe some of the role models, the people who inspired you. And what led you to Columbia?
DU (00:38):
Well, I was born in San Francisco.
SM (00:41):
Okay, speak up.
DU (00:42):
I was born in San Francisco. But [inaudible 00:46] at the time, I never really lived, I have no recollection of it. I grew up mostly in Boise, Idaho. [inaudible 01:00]. Graduated, went to college, not at Columbia, but at Harvard. Because somehow, I got the idea that Harvard was the place where they had taken most of the world's knowledge captive and were holding it in the library.
SM (01:23):
Oh, wow.
DU (01:23):
So, I wanted to go liberate it. To take possession of it, I wanted−
SM (01:29):
What years were those?
DU (01:34):
(19)50s, early (1960s. So, I went from teenager in a small town in Idaho, [inaudible 01:42] this idea, I do not know. But I did, from the earliest age that I can remember, that was what I wanted to do. Once I got over the idea that I wanted to go to [inaudible 01:57].
SM (01:59):
Speak up a little bit louder, too. Somehow, it is not coming through very good.
DU (02:03):
Once I recovered from the idea that I wanted to go to the state university nearby and be a football hero.
SM (02:09):
Mm-hmm?
DU (02:11):
Then I was determined, for some reason, to go to Harvard. That was what I did.
SM (02:16):
You must have done well in school.
DU (02:19):
I worked hard and found schoolwork congenial. So yes, I did. By the academic time and place, yes. And Harvard was a new and astonishing experience. I am glad I did it, and it launched me on the quest for the rest of my life. People used to ask me, "What do you do?" And my people answer was, "I read the newspaper." And that was what I did. Try to keep myself informed in the hopes of understanding why the world worked the way it is. But I had to stop saying that because nobody believed it. But it was true. I graduated from Harvard, I went off and did other things here and there, and then found myself back at Columbia for a while. But always [inaudible 03:31] earning a living. [inaudible 03:35] quest for understanding whatever I could find.
SM (03:43):
What was the gap between your years at Harvard and Columbia?
DU (03:50):
At Harvard I was on the editorial board of the student daily newspaper, Harvard Crimson it is called.
SM (03:59):
Mm- hmm.
DU (04:03):
And people at The Crimson mostly, and a few others, concocted the idea to start a newspaper. Give coverage to the then infant Civil Rights Movement. Which received almost no local coverage other than hostile.
SM (04:22):
Mm-hmm.
DU (04:29):
And just [inaudible 04:29] national coverage, [inaudible 04:32] Harvard Crimson and others. [inaudible 04:37]. Reported in Montgomery, Alabama, the Southern Courier.
SM (04:43):
David?
DU (04:43):
Yeah.
SM (04:46):
Speak up a little louder. Somehow it is cutting out. Keep getting-
DU (04:50):
Started a weekly newspaper called the Southern Courier. Reported in Montgomery to cover the civil rights. Not slavishly, but since then it was not a house organ, it was a regular newspaper, but its purpose was to give [inaudible 05:12] fair balanced coverage of the civil rights [inaudible 05:20]. The local press was not doing. And I went from connection with The Crimson Harvard to working on that weekly paper. Which brought me to Mobile, where I am now. I was the reporter and photographer and circulation manager and distributor and [inaudible 00:05:45] for that paper in Mobile. That was really by accident, needed somebody to go to this city and did not have anybody here. So, armed with a couple [inaudible 00:05:56] phone numbers I was sent off into the lower Alabama wilderness to create a Mobile outpost there.
SM (06:08):
What year was that?
DU (06:08):
That was in 1964, (19)65.
SM (06:09):
Wow. That was right in the heyday.
DU (06:14):
It was. There were demonstrations and deaths and marches and violence. Yes.
SM (06:19):
Did you ever fear, as a new writer down south, coming from the north, for your life?
DU (06:25):
Oh yes.
SM (06:27):
Explain that feeling.
DU (06:29):
Yes. It was not just a feeling. There was one time, you may remember James Meredith and his attempt to integrate the University of Mississippi. At one point was trying to march from the Mississippi border with Tennessee down to Jackson and got shot along the highway.
SM (06:48):
Yes, I remember that.
DU (06:49):
And that provoked the march to carry on from where he was shot to the rest of the way to Jackson. I went from Mobile over there to cover that for the paper, and I was a participant marching, newspaper reporter, when I got back here after being gone for several days some of the neighbors in the inner-city area where I lived, Mobile, came running up to me as soon as I drove up and told me what had happened in my absence. Which was that somebody with the rifle who did not belong in that neighborhood had been spotted on the roof of an old, abandoned building right across the street from my driveway. And they had called the law who came and looked up there and said, "We do not see nobody." And went away. And the neighbors kept insisting, the law came back. Finally, they made [inaudible 07:47] the fire department came with their ladders, and they climbed up there and brought down a guy with the rifle, just across the street.
SM (07:58):
And he was there to kill you?
DU (07:59):
Yes.
SM (08:00):
Unbelievable.
DU (08:00):
And put him in a police car and drove him away. And this is what the neighbors told me when I got back. So, I went to see the police chief the next day, who I had already known, as a reporter from other stories. Told him what had happened, and he looked puzzled that no such thing had ever happened that he had ever heard of. He would certainly know if that occurred. I said, well, if a man was put in a police car and taken away, that sounds like an arrest. Surely there would be a record of an arrest and that would be a public document, would not it? He did not think any such thing had happened.
SM (08:49):
Oh, so it was just like a lot of things in the south at that time.
DU (08:51):
Oh, yes.
SM (08:51):
They just let him go.
DU (08:53):
Or were implicated in it.
SM (08:55):
Oh, wow.
DU (08:58):
But I let him know I would pursue this. And either find out who that was and what they had done with him or reveal that the police department was somehow in cahoots. Somebody who was clearly on an assassination. So, then the police chief, he went away and came back a little while later with a scribbled note on the scrap paper with somebody's name and address saying, this was the man they took down from the roof and took away in a police car. [inaudible 09:32].
SM (09:34):
Was he a white man or a black man?
DU (09:36):
White man.
SM (09:39):
Unbelievable.
DU (09:40):
Well, I presume. I mean I just curiously drove by the address. Which was out in the new white suburban area.
SM (09:48):
Now, did you go back to Columbia after you were down south for a while working on the paper?
DU (09:53):
I did not go back to Columbia; I had never been at Columbia. But I was here working on the paper and having experiences like that for over a year. About a year and a half, then I went, just in time for the uproar of the (19)60s. (19)66 at Columbia, I was a graduate student then. And I got to know and lingered on the fringes of the campus, The Students for a Democratic Society. Some of those [inaudible 10:41]. I had been familiar with all of that from the start, because it began largely among friends of mine and roommates at Harvard, named Gitlin.
SM (10:56):
Oh, Todd Gitlin?
DU (10:57):
Yeah.
SM (10:57):
Oh yeah, he is one of those really top professors in America today in communications.
DU (11:02):
That is right, that is right. He is what, sociology journalism professor at Columbia now, last I-
SM (11:11):
Yes, he is. Mm-hmm.
DU (11:13):
He was a close friend of mine and a semi-roommate at Harvard. At the time he was one of the founders of SDS.
SM (11:25):
Golly. Huh.
DU (11:27):
And actually, there was one time during our [inaudible 11:29] when both of us had interned, we were roommates in Washington. So, I was−
SM (11:39):
Speak up again, David.
DU (11:41):
I was closely acquainted with all of those folks at the founding of SDS. One of the early (19)60s movement, and because of that I gravitated towards similar activities at Columbia. I probably should mention to you that Gitlin and I and a few others created an anti-war. Actually, it was an anti-bomb organization at Harvard called Tocsin.
SM (12:16):
T-O-S-I-N?
DU (12:20):
T-O-C-S-I-N.
SM (12:22):
Okay.
DU (12:28):
It is a French word. Their creation not mine, a French word for some kind of community warning bell, a tocsin. For some reason they thought that was appropriate. Anti-bomb organization that created on campus. And had some little protests against, like the Cuban Missile Crisis and the near obliteration−
SM (12:53):
Oh yes, (19)62.
DU (13:00):
So that fright, and at one point had some sort of poster art manifestation on the streets of DC in front of the White House, as I recall. But it was mostly a campus educational anti-nuclear organization.
SM (13:18):
Mm-hmm, now you were- [inaudible 13:24].
DU (13:28):
That then led to anti-war. The Vietnam war was just beginning then to escalate the American participation in it.
SM (13:36):
Mm-hmm.
DU (13:38):
[inaudible 13:38] but to my knowledge some new people in this Tocsin organization arranged the first anti-Vietnam war demonstration in America. Which was in Cambridge, it would have been spring of (19)64. There were about 10 or a dozen people that came to a meeting the night before. Something had just happened in Vietnam that revealed to the public [inaudible 14:08].
SM (14:07):
Was that the Gulf of Tonkin resolution?
DU (14:13):
This was slightly before that.
SM (14:15):
Okay.
DU (14:16):
Something had happened that revealed burgeoning American entanglement in the [inaudible 14:25]. And about 10 or a dozen of us had a meeting to try to decide what to do. We decided we were going to have a little demonstration and pass out leaflets in Harvard Square the next day. It was one of my formative experiences. Because when I got there with the leaflets to pass out, instead of a dozen of us there was three of us conducting this anti-war demonstration. We did what we said we were going to do, and we were truly cursed at and spat at, and became a kind of urban myth later the returning solders were spit on, and questionable whether that actually happened. We were really cursed and spat at in Harvard Square.
SM (15:14):
By students?
DU (15:14):
Students, people coming in, citizens, people coming in and out of subway stations. Just everybody [inaudible 15:20] the response was of viciously hostile. Because we were openly opposing American policy [inaudible 15:32] commie enemy.
SM (15:34):
Wow.
DU (15:36):
To my knowledge that was the first demonstration in specific against the war in Vietnam.
SM (15:39):
Was that your very first experience ever, even as a high school student of standing up for something that you thought was unjust?
DU (15:58):
Oh no. That was the first time I went out and exposed in a public place and encounter an openly hostile reaction. Which was [inaudible 16:20] foretaste for what was to come.
SM (16:22):
Oh yeah.
DU (16:25):
Later in Alabama and later than that at Columbia. But that grew directly out of that Tocsin [inaudible 16:35] with Gitlin and those folk. [inaudible 16:44] but I did a few-
SM (16:45):
Keep that voice up, David.
DU (16:47):
I did a few things like that in high school. Actually, to my knowledge I am the only person who ever defeated Fidel Castro in an election.
SM (17:04):
Oh? Explain that. Because that we are talking (19)61ish, or−
DU (17:04):
Yeah, (19)59, (19)60, thereabouts. I was running for student body president of my high school. And nobody chose to run against me. But to keep the election from being a bore we decided to run Fidel Castro against me. And we got a− Hello?
SM (17:33):
Yeah, I am here. I am hearing it.
DU (17:36):
We somehow got some old− I am hearing an echo. What is that coming from?
SM (17:42):
I do not know, I do not have an echo here, but−
DU (17:44):
All right, then I will just keep talking.
SM (17:45):
Yeah.
DU (17:46):
Strange echo. So, we got some old army looking uniforms, some arrayed rifles from the ROTC unit that came trooping into the high school like Castro's revolutionaries campaigning for him to be student body president.
SM (18:07):
I hope you won−
DU (18:10):
It was close. But I won.
SM (18:13):
I hate to think what would have happened if he had won.
DU (18:20):
We unfurled Castro banners in the school auditorium during the election assembly and all sorts of stuff like that.
SM (18:27):
Well, how did the principal respond?
DU (18:31):
Well, we did not clear it with the principal in advance, of course. We just− But who knows what would prompt somebody to do something like that? But I did. And then I had a lot of help. But it was pretty much my project to run Fidel Castro against me.
SM (18:57):
Any other experiences in high school where you had to stand up for an issue?
DU (19:03):
There was a time at church where I decided, for whatever reason, that I was going to go around to all the other churches in town, including there was one synagogue in town, and there was one Buddhist church, because of the leftover Japanese when they [inaudible 19:32] from the West Coast, was still there. So, there was a Buddhist church in town, and there were Mormons and there were Catholics. So, I decided I would go around on my own ecumenical mission and visit each one of these congregations to teach myself what the other religions were about. And in the course of that− Also, there was a particular cute girl who I thought [inaudible 19:59] explorations to. And I thought she might be willing to go along. I think [inaudible 20:09]. And she did [inaudible 20:13]. But I got in, this was considered sort of cute. Maybe even appropriately educational, and I was not discouraged doing so by my own church or school or family until I went to a service at one black church that was in town and got to know some of the people there and decided, who knows why, that it would be a good idea to have a joint meeting between their high school Sunday school class and ours. And then the− you know what hit the fan.
SM (21:10):
Yeah, now, what was your church?
DU (21:12):
The Presbyterian church.
SM (21:13):
Okay.
DU (21:14):
[inaudible 21:14] and all my other strayings and inquiries were tolerated, but that one was not. And I will never forget, the preacher of the one black church, I do not even remember what denomination it was, I might not even have been aware of the denomination at the time, eventually made an embarrassing and regretful phone call to me regretting that he and his Sunday school class would not be able to come to the joint meeting with ours. I do not know what kind of pressure was put on him through what route, but these folks originally were receptive and willing and suddenly did not want to do it. And that never happened.
SM (22:14):
Wow. And no one ever told you to not pursue it?
DU (22:21):
I mean I knew from the reactions that I was not supposed to pursue it. And I mean I was inclined to, but I knew from what my preacher had told me that the pursuit would be fruitless because they were not coming.
SM (22:37):
Mm-hmm. Wow. Going back to that experience in Harvard Square where you said about 12 of you, was Todd Gitlin one of them too?
DU (22:50):
No, I think he was already graduated [inaudible 22:52].
SM (22:54):
But your standathon, was that a onetime experience or did you keep going to Harvard Square? I have been up there twice this summer, so I know that area very well and−
DU (23:05):
It was a onetime experience going there to hand out leaflets to try to talk to people about the war that was brewing that America was getting entangled in. That was a onetime experience.
SM (23:14):
Mm-hmm.
DU (23:17):
The meeting that evening before to arrange this with about 10 or dozen people present, that was a onetime experience.
SM (23:23):
Right.
DU (23:24):
But there had been many such meetings of related issues, I think throughout, of that anti-war, anti-nuclear bomb organization. That was the connection. But the leafletting of Vietnam in Harvard Square, [inaudible 23:46] but we were deliberately trying to [inaudible 23:54].
SM (23:54):
What was the−
DU (23:54):
That was a onetime experience.
SM (23:54):
What was the town you grew up, where your high school was?
DU (23:56):
Boise.
SM (23:57):
What?
DU (23:58):
Boise.
SM (23:58):
Oh, Boise, Idaho.
DU (23:59):
Yeah.
SM (24:00):
Okay. And were you at Columbia in (19)69 when Mark Rudd and all those students took over?
DU (24:06):
Oh yeah, I was right in the thick of all of that.
SM (24:10):
Yeah.
DU (24:11):
[inaudible 24:11]. Yes.
SM (24:14):
That is one of the top five protests of the entire (19)60s. Of course, Kent State maybe believe is number one. But what was it about that experience? What did you learn from that experience, and what did the university learn from it?
DU (24:28):
Well−
SM (24:29):
And speak up.
DU (24:45):
Oh lord. I mean I learned that even when you have what looked like a mass movement behind you it was almost impossible to make any headway against an entrenched system.
SM (25:03):
Mm-hmm.
DU (25:06):
When we shut down−
SM (25:07):
Are you getting another call?
DU (25:10):
I am trying to make it go away. We shut down the university. You know all of this.
SM (25:18):
Yeah, I know it all, people who are going to be reading this though are going to hear this firsthand from the participants.
DU (25:27):
And we raised questions that had to be addressed about the university's cohabitation with the imperial war security state. And people were paying attention, willing to listen and address issues. They shut down the school. Tried to alter that cohabitation. And in the end, we did not. Columbia reverted, along with the rest of the academic establishments to the same old ways. It is sobering and sometimes if you think about it, discouraging. Almost every day it occurs to me that despite all we did at that time, and everything that we pointed out, which the events proved true, still look at the news today and the same kind of thing is happening.
SM (00:26:47):
Yes.
DU (26:50):
On the opposite side of the road, as if we had done nothing.
SM (26:54):
You raise a great point, David. I have been saying the same thing for years, that when they try to look at the free speech movement at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65, I love the way the media tries to portray it as an isolated incident in the early (19)60s somewhat separate from the anti-war movement in the later (19)60s. When it was all about Mario Savio and the students had had enough with the university and the fact that they felt, as students, that they wanted a university of ideas, not a university that was run by a corporate takeover, and corporate interests.
DU (27:31):
Yes.
SM (27:31):
And that was what it was all about, and Clark Kerr talked about the knowledge factory that the students were upset with, being just− You are right, and that was happening at Columbia too. And what we are seeing today, it is the same thing again.
DU (27:52):
And those urges, and those organized uprisings reinforced each other. The people from the campus began the Vietnam protests overlap a lot with those who showed up as activists in the Civil Rights Movement. Which then overlap a lot, began with, those who enlarged the anti-war movement to the point where it finally made that war stop. So, it did not make the imperial impulse stop, but it makes that particular manifestation stop. All of those things reinforced each other, created a condition of concern and recognized mutual [inaudible 28:57] over from one effort to another. That [inaudible 29:02] it feels even more lonely and futile to try to mount some kind of public awareness campaign and resistance now than it did then. Because you do not have that [inaudible 29:24] of others of similar motive, dedication, around you everywhere, like we did then.
SM (29:33):
Yeah, it also inspired all the other movements, the Women's Movement, and the Gay and Lesbian Movement, and the Environmental Movement, and the Native American Movement, Chicano Movement, they were all linked together in different ways.
DU (29:52):
I am glad you brought the American−
SM (29:54):
And please speak up again.
DU (29:55):
I am glad you mentioned the Native American, because early in, it came to be called, the uprising at Columbia, there was a steering committee, include Rudd and me and some of the folks who later blew themselves up in that [inaudible 30:20] townhouse.
SM (30:22):
Oh yeah.
DU (30:23):
[inaudible 30:23] those.
SM (30:23):
Mm-hmm.
DU (30:25):
We were all together on a steering committee, and in those steering committee meetings I brought up the Indian question. They were not called Native Americans then. Because [inaudible 30:37] the simmerings of what came, the Rosebud Sioux Rebellion and some others. And I wanted to make an explicit linkage with those folks and make common cause with them. Which was I believe the first incredulous mockery by Rudd and those folks, they thought it sounded like something that was in a Wild West movie?
SM (31:08):
Right?
DU (31:08):
They later came to recognize the importance, but it was a lonely issue to raise at first. But again, to my knowledge, the discussion about that at the Columbia steering committee− did not want to call it the [inaudible 31:31] committee, that sounds too Red Commie. But the discussions about that issue were, to my knowledge, first of an attempt to link those struggles, and it is commonplace now. But the beginnings of it were instances like that.
SM (31:51):
Right.
DU (31:55):
One other little vignette to illustrate [inaudible 31:59]. At Harvard when I was there was also Henry Kissinger. And he was not yet− You could tell he was on his way to being unofficially, he was [inaudible 32:21] under Secretary of State Rockefeller then, touring the world on their behalf. And he would disappear from class for spreads of time and then reappear having been to India or wherever else, pursuing what [inaudible 32:38]. But he was saying it even then that [inaudible 32:41]. At one point sociologist David Riesman wrote [inaudible 32:49].
SM (32:48):
The Lonely Crowd.
DU (32:52):
Yes, Riesman arranged, I do not know why, he arranged a small dinner meeting with Kissinger. Kissinger was just returning from one of these ventures to Vietnam. And Riesman was dubious indeed about the burgeoning war in Vietnam. But Kissinger was a personal friend and college of his, did not want to be too cross with him. But Riesman knew that I did not give a damn about the thing. And that I had deep doubts about all of this. So, he seated me next to Kissinger at this little dinner party. And I got into a conversation with Kissinger, [inaudible 33:40] what he had disclosed [inaudible 33:43].
SM (33:51):
I did not know Henry was in the room with you.
DU (33:52):
[inaudible 33:52]. And I, being a young [inaudible 34:05] I did not give a damn, I just told Kissinger.
SM (34:08):
Speak up again, David, please.
DU (34:10):
I told Kissinger he was wrong and said that if he and the others he was in league with continue the way that they were going that they would, in drawing checks from the bank of American political credit and military strength until they had broken the bank and would discover that they had lost [inaudible 34:40]. And Kissinger got pissed at me for not deferring to his superior knowledge. And he said [inaudible 34:51] turned his back on me, and refused−
(Part 1 OF 5 Ends) [35:04]
DU (35:03):
− turned his back on me and refused to speak to me anymore.
SM (35:05):
Oh my gosh.
DU (35:07):
And [inaudible 35:08].
SM (35:14):
You succeeded.
DU (35:18):
[inaudible 35:18]. And then several years later when Kissinger was Secretary of State and I had been in a demonstration in DC. Actually, I think it was the time of Nixon's second Inauguration. That would have been−
SM (35:42):
(19)72.
DU (35:42):
Well, he was reelected, this would have been in January of (19)73.
SM (35:44):
Mm-hmm.
DU (35:48):
And we were in a big crowd, freezing on the street in front of the justice department in January of (19)73. And then the police decided they were going to go home, and it was cold, and they were tired. So, they charged, tear gas out of the mounted police on horses and motorcycles [inaudible 36:06] and broke up the crowd and chased us through the streets of DC. I remember thinking, 1973, this is the beginning of the 10th year since (19)64 at Harvard Square where there first had been a demonstration against the war. This is (19)73.
SM (36:33):
Wow.
DU (36:34):
I was thinking, this is the beginning of the 10th year since I first came out in this war. And it is still going on and here I am chased down the street, running from the cops throwing tear gas on this cold January night and going past the state department building. And up on the top floor I could see the light, figures of the silhouette behind the glass up, where I figured that must be the Secretary of State up there. That must be Henry looking down on me running through the streets getting chased by the cops and the tear gas [inaudible 37:14].
SM (37:11):
Wow.
DU (37:15):
After all those years ago at that dinner party Riesman set up in Cambridge where events showed I was right. Henry was wrong. But I was down on the streets running from the cops and he was the Secretary of State.
SM (37:36):
It is a great story.
DU (37:37):
Yeah.
SM (37:39):
One of the questions I ask everyone too, when you were either in high school, senior high school, or college, what books were important to you? You were probably a very big reader. Say any time in the (19)60s or early (19)70s what books really influenced you? By anyone.
DU (38:11):
Well, the autobiography of Big Bill Haywood did.
SM (38:21):
Mm-hmm?
DU (38:25):
Because he had been tried for murder for blowing up the governor in Idaho, not convicted. [inaudible 38:31] was one of the most famous cases.
SM (38:37):
Mm-hmm.
DU (38:38):
Maybe I am telling you what you already know. And then it happened in the town where I grew up. I knew nothing of it, there were two people in my [inaudible 38:53] included the participation in the organizing activities of the Wobblie. So, they were the IWW [inaudible 39:06], they knew about Haywood, and his trial. Heard about [inaudible 39:11] finding Haywood's autobiography and reading it. And that made a big impression on me. Because [inaudible 39:29] life and a way of doing [inaudible 39:35] different from anything I was told.
SM (39:38):
What did he do?
DU (39:40):
He was a minor-
SM (39:43):
Mm-hmm.
DU (39:50):
[inaudible 39:50].
SM (39:50):
I hate to say it, but please speak up.
DU (39:50):
One of the early organizers of the IWW.
SM (39:51):
Mm-hmm.
DU (39:52):
The Wobblies.
SM (39:54):
Yep.
DU (39:55):
That came mostly out of the lumber camps of out west. Idaho, Nevada, Utah. Joe Hill, those folks came from that area. And Haywood was [inaudible 40:09] by his trial [inaudible 40:13] governor was in Boise.
SM (40:15):
Mm-hmm.
DU (40:17):
So, from looking at Haywood's autobiography I got a glimpse of this way of positioning yourself in the world very different, anodized, standard, acceptable history that I got. That made an impression.
DU (40:35):
Also, the Diary's of the Lewis and Clark Expedition. Edited by a historian named Bernard DeVoto. Which made you, again, realize that everything you have been taught about pioneers struggling across the wilderness and populating this empty territory was an elaborate self-serving lie. And [inaudible 41:16] colonial theft of that [inaudible 41:19] from people who had inhabited it for millennia.
SM (41:26):
Native Americans.
DU (41:27):
Yeah.
SM (41:27):
Yeah.
DU (41:28):
All of that [inaudible 41:29] standard history, and to the extent that most folk just all they were [inaudible 41:36].
SM (41:36):
What was the author's name again?
DU (41:39):
DeVoto. D-E-V-O-T-O.
SM (41:41):
First name?
DU (41:42):
Bernard.
SM (41:42):
Bernard DeVoto. Okay.
DU (41:45):
Historian of the era, but was editor of the journals of Lewis and Clark.
SM (41:57):
You honestly were born probably just prior to; the Boomers are classified as (19)46 to (19)64.
DU (42:05):
Yes, [inaudible 42:05] (19)64.
SM (42:07):
But we do not go with these guidelines here, and I have learned that by interviewing people. But when you look at the era that Boomers have been alive from 1946 to right now, 2010 and hopefully they will be alive 20 plus more years as they all approach senior citizen, although they hate that term. In your own words as a person who grew up in the (19)50s and then experienced all these things in the (19)60s and (19)70s and have been an activist through the (19)80s, (19)90s and the first 10 years of this century, how, in your own words, just a few words, how would you describe that period 1946 to 1960? In your own words. And again, please speak up.
DU (42:56):
For me that was a time of trying to learn the nature of the world beyond and contrary to the picture that was automatically presented to me. That is, it.
SM (43:16):
And what was the−
DU (43:16):
And I set out to learn what had been omitted or obscured or warped. And it was from a few things like I decided that I got a keyhole glimpse of something great big different on the other side that made me want to push through that crack and find out what was on the other side. That was what those years were about.
SM (43:40):
How about the years 19−
DU (43:41):
Trying to overcome the indoctrination that I suppose any society attempted to perform upon its youth to make them fit, carry on the legacy handed to them. And for me it did not sit very comfortably. So, I- [inaudible 44:03] out on my own.
SM (44:04):
How about that period (19)61 to 1970?
DU (44:07):
That was an uproar. Agitation, uncertainty, and there were many moments where you were not sure that you would be alive the next moment. Either because somebody with a rifle was on the roof across the street when you go into your driveway, or because some fool with his finger on a big red button was willing to summon Armageddon upon the entire Earth in order to make a macho point to his counterpart on the other side of the world. That is what the Cuban Missile Crisis [inaudible 44:51].
SM (44:53):
How about 1971 to 1980?
DU (44:59):
Oh, what happened? Was there such a period?
SM (45:05):
I know there was disco in the second half−
DU (45:10):
To me, I know all of that was going on kind of as the downhill slope died of the (19)60s for the society at large, but for me it did not differ much from the time before. After I escaped Columbia, my education and formal progress were to be very badly spent by all of the uproar and uprisings at Columbia. I finally escaped from there with some kind of graduate degree but came back to Alabama and worked on a prison reform and community organizing project in the (19)70s. And then I was out in Washington state for a while, parts of my family were out there, and I got involved in some organized [inaudible 46:11] against a nuclear power plant financing boondoggle. I do not know if you are aware of that at all.
SM (46:20):
No.
DU (46:21):
It is called the Washington Public Power Supply. Formerly known as WOOPS. That sold multiple billions of dollars’ worth of bonds to unwary local community public utility districts and the like to finance this big, actually unnecessary and badly conceived nuclear power plant that almost [inaudible 46:49] but wasted billions of dollars of money [inaudible 46:52] never generated. But the bonds are still outstanding, all these hopeless public utility [inaudible 46:58] you have got to pay off the bonds, even though you have got no power coming. If you Google [inaudible 47:08].
SM (47:08):
Right?
DU (47:08):
−spell that. [inaudible 47:11] there was a big uprising across the region, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, parts of Canada and Nevada against paying off these bonds for a derelict power plant that did not exist. I got very much involved in that, mostly around the city of, somewhere called Ellensburg, Washington state. Right between Seattle and Spokane. And there was a general public uprising against the bond boondoggle that I was in the thick of. I did that in the (19)70s.
SM (48:01):
How about the 1981 to 1990?
DU (48:04):
Well, in the mid (19)80s I came back to Alabama. I never [inaudible 48:08] got away from Alabama. And I had helped to create a new local community newspaper here in Mobile called the Harbinger. H-A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R. [inaudible 48:29] on the web if you care to look. [inaudible 48:38] from that I got working at a radio station. Because it was to do an audio version of this newspaper that was put on the radio. And I became acquainted with the button and [inaudible 48:53] pushing aspect of running a radio station. And spent around there for a while. Well, I needed a job, for one thing. I did a lot more for them than the value of what they paid me. So, it was a good arrangement for them. I infiltrated enough eventually I found myself as the host of an AM radio talk show in Mobile, Alabama. An unlikely outcome, but there I was. And it turned out, as I suspected it would, the sort of angle I wanted to approach local and world events from did have an interested audience within a place like this, reputedly derivative and backwards. But there was lots of [inaudible 49:43] jumping on the radio, like what I was offering. If you, by your own approach, gave them permission to hold and express such ideas then they would. And use of what contacts I could [inaudible 50:03] to try to get the prominent people from a national level on the radio here. Like I had Ralph Nader on for a while. He was scheduled to be there [inaudible 50:21] and stayed almost the whole hour and at the end when he finally tore himself away, he said, and he was not the only one who ever said this to me too, he said, "That is a really educated and an informed audience you have got." I guess he had not expected it. But that was the sort of audience you could attract.
SM (50:43):
Mm-hmm.
DU (50:43):
That gave me a chance to say, "Well, yes, of course. What did you expect? This is lower Alabama."
SM (50:50):
Did the Reagan era, what is your comments on that whole Reagan era?
DU (50:54):
Oh lord.
SM (50:56):
In a few words, you do not have to go in- Because a lot of people, when you think of the (19)80s, that is the (19)80s.
DU (51:04):
It was like just treading water, so you did not drown. That is all.
SM (51:12):
Mm-hmm. How about that period, (19)91 to 2000? Were you still with your radio station? That was the era of Clinton and President Bush one.
DU (51:17):
I mean that was mainly the time that I was at the radio station, in the (19)90s.
SM (51:22):
Mm-hmm.
DU (51:25):
And oh, then I got in some trouble with the people whose interest [inaudible 51:32] I had recruited, because they were all pro-Clinton and I was pissed at Clinton making such a mess of his presidency, and for actually for not minding the door, that was the way I put it. He was fooling around with Monica when he should have been minding his door.
SM (51:50):
Right?
DU (51:52):
Very unhappy with Clinton for that. And so, the Clintonites were unhappy with me. But I kept that outlook anyway. Then, when W and his [inaudible 52:09] came along I could honestly say that it was not partisanship pose what he was doing. And people had to believe it was not partisanship, [inaudible 52:23] but that brought the end of my radio career. [inaudible 52:30].
SM (52:31):
Because the people were upset with your- [inaudible 52:33].
DU (52:34):
End of the Iraq war if you were not pro-war and if you were not pro-Israel, you could not stay on the radio. It was just [inaudible 52:44].
SM (52:44):
Wow.
DU (52:48):
And after years of running this talk show and doing much of the button and paper pushing to keep this AM station going, I was just merrily fired by the owner, who was very pro-Bush, pro-war, and pro-Zionist.
SM (53:07):
Wow.
DU (53:09):
Also, it did not help that I had broadcast back to Mobile from Radio Havana. Do you want to hear that story?
SM (53:19):
Yeah, I know you ran against Castro in (19)61, but I did not know you tried to go see him. Yeah. Go ahead and tell that story before we go on to another question.
DU (53:33):
Yeah, courtesy of a couple of quirky people, Mobile is officially the sister city of Havana. You know about the Sister City Organization, correct?
SM (53:46):
Yes, I do.
DU (53:49):
Mobile and Havana are officially sister cities and have been for many years. And one guys [inaudible 53:54] went to Havana or made arrangements [inaudible 53:59] go there and started poking around. And he was finding the long historical connection was true [inaudible 54:06] and Havana. But had to [inaudible 54:10] waterfront of both cities. For that reason and others, he said, "These ought to be sister cities." And he made it happen. So, there is a Mobile and Havana Sister City organization that has sponsored several trips back and forth between delegates from here and Cubans come to Mobile. Under W of the restrictions [inaudible 54:34] was almost bumped. In the late (19)90s under Clinton it was a little easier to travel and did that. There was no commercial flights or boats. You had to charter your own boat. Basically, did a little [inaudible 54:49] out in the ocean, Key West, bouncing along the ocean. [inaudible 54:53]. I went to Havana, about a dozen of us from Mobile. And at one point I decided that I was going to go to Radio Havana and try to make a connection there to broadcast back to the radio station in Mobile, and just do my radio talk show. So, I was lucky enough to meet the right couple of people and got into Radio Havana and arranged to use their studio and telephone link back and got the local people in their studio. And, had somebody running with a microphone and a switchback in Mobile and did my talk show while I was sitting in Havana at the headquarters of Radio Havana. And people in Mobile can call up and talk to me and these Cuban Commie folks I had in the studio. It was wonderful. And when I got back here after that the owner, I thought that I had done a remarkable thing. The owner was not happy that I had used his equipment to cover boy Commie Castro on the air to print propaganda [inaudible 56:16].
SM (56:17):
Did President Bush make comments to him on this?
DU (56:21):
I do not know.
SM (56:22):
No? You do not know?
DU (56:22):
−how far the−
SM (56:26):
That is quite a story too. How important were The Beats? Did you read The Beats, and how important were they in your eyes in their writings about the influence they had on the Boomer generation?
DU (56:38):
Not very for me.
SM (56:39):
Right.
DU (56:39):
And I was aware of all of that, of course.
SM (56:43):
Many kinds of people believe they were the first nonconformists, and they were, and they did not care what people thought, and they were unique and different. But you do not think they were that important?
DU (56:51):
I was aware of that and influenced by it, sure. But it was not formative for me, I do not think.
SM (58:01):
Right. I guess I think I asked this next question− I have got so many questions here−
DU (58:06):
[inaudible 58:06] directly pertinent to add. I was at a meeting with all these Mark Rudd type on the campus of Columbia once and those folks, they got involved in a lot of intricate sectarian disputes with each other that derived from their personal and family connections and all sorts of [inaudible 58:29] dating back to the (19)30s and before.
SM (58:32):
Mm-hmm?
DU (58:34):
But I suppose you are aware of.
SM (58:35):
Yes, I am.
DU (58:36):
That I had no personal connection with and knew about only from reading his [inaudible 58:41]. But somebody in one of those meetings, when one of those cantankerous discussions were going on said casually and matter of factly, "We are all red diaper babies at this meeting. And that is why we are having fusses like this." And I looked at the one person who was in there with me that I knew was not a red diaper baby. Actually, she is the one who is name I gave you by email.
SM (58:06):
Oh yeah, I think I will contact her too.
DU (58:10):
Yeah, yeah. I looked at her and she looked at me, because we knew we were not red diaper. But to everybody else in there that was the norm.
SM (58:23):
Yeah- [inaudible 58:24].
DU (58:24):
−I was a misfit [inaudible 58:27] always was a misfit. [inaudible 58:32] I know that much of formative motivation came from his church.
SM (58:45):
Mm-hmm?
DU (58:47):
That more than [inaudible 58:54] posturing of the (19)40s from these sectarian groups [inaudible 59:02]. I also should have mentioned, when I was just trying to explore how the world- [inaudible 59:11].
SM (59:11):
Speak up again too, David.
DU (59:12):
−trying to find out how the world worked. And one of the things that experience told me were formative. And one of those was the Communist Manifesto. So, I started going into the public library in this little town in Idaho looking for materials, and I got educated.
SM (59:29):
Mm- hmm.
DU (59:32):
And at one point somebody, I do not know who, decided that this was bad for me and that I was no longer going to be able to check out material from the public library.
SM (59:42):
Unbelievable.
DU (59:44):
And so, when I tried to take back books, I was told no, and I had to go get something more normal and correct. I was not allowed to take back materials out of the library. So, I had to, of course, recruit friends to go in and get them for me. It just did not stop me. But there was an attempt to prevent me from those things.
SM (01:00:08):
Yeah, that is 1950s in America. Hold on one second here. You have got to bear with me in something, I have got to turn this light over here. [inaudible 01:00:15] all right.
DU (01:00:15):
But that [inaudible 01:00:25].
SM (01:00:29):
Okay. You already talked about your experiences of standing up for that first time, several times, for an issue. And of course, whenever a person stands up for something they become vulnerable. That is why a lot of people are afraid to do it. As a follow-up to that question were there many times that this happened in the (19)70s, (19)80s, and (19)90s, and beyond, I think you have already mentioned it, you have already talked about that somewhat, your activism overall has been continuous and ongoing.
DU (01:01:03):
Yes.
SM (01:01:04):
Yeah. And in describing your career after 1970 how would you describe the David before 1970 and the David after?
DU (01:01:19):
The same character.
SM (01:01:19):
Mm-hmm?
DU (01:01:22):
The (19)70s were not a dividing line for me. Why would you pick that date?
SM (01:01:28):
Well, because I figured you were at Columbia in the (19)60s and you got your graduate degree and then once you get your degree people sometimes look at college as the protective years whereas the real world happens once you leave college.
DU (01:01:46):
No.
SM (01:01:49):
Is Mobile, Alabama-
DU (01:01:50):
I went back to doing much the same thing I had done before college and before graduate school, back in Mobile. [inaudible 01:01:59] this prison reform project.
SM (01:02:00):
You have been pretty consistent from the get-go.
DU (01:02:05):
For whatever reason, yes, it has been the main contour of my life.
SM (01:02:11):
In your own words define activism.
DU (01:02:25):
It is the refusal to accept−
SM (01:02:28):
And please speak up.
DU (01:02:31):
It is the refusal to accept the path that is laid out before you.
SM (01:02:34):
Mm-hmm.
DU (01:02:36):
That is, it.
SM (01:02:38):
One of the interesting things is how I got to know you first off is that essay that was in Marvin Serkan and Allan Wolf's book in 1970. I was a political science major, and I actually got that book in 1970 in my senior year, and I read it right before I graduated. It was coming out the summer and I got an advance copy through one of the professors. How did you essay end up in that book edited by these two great scholars? And what was the main thesis for your article?
DU (01:03:17):
You might be able to tell me better than that. I have not looked at that or thought about that in decades.
SM (01:03:20):
Oh, okay. So, you do not remember what the article was about?
DU (01:03:26):
If you still have the book the book it was the end of political science and how political science does or does not- [inaudible 01:03:33] the issues that it needs to address.
SM (01:03:38):
Yeah, well I read your article a long− Well, I re-read it. I read it a long time ago and then I re-read it for the interviews. So, I did not know if you had a purpose for writing it. I know you mentioned in the article some experiences at Columbia. How did you ever get in that book?
DU (01:04:04):
Well now that you asked me, I am trying to remember, and I do not. I knew those guys, and where I came across them or how I crossed paths with them I do not specifically recall. And they asked me to produce something for their book, so I did. But beyond that I have no specific recollection of how it came about.
SM (01:04:41):
Well, what I am going to have to do-
DU (01:04:42):
They approached me. I did not approach them.
SM (01:04:48):
Okay. I have not seen a lot of writing since you were in college. Explain your writing, and or teach it− Have you ever taught? Been a teacher at any community college or school?
DU (01:05:05):
Well, I was a teaching assistant in some classes at Columbia as a grad student. And I had a couple of brief teaching assignments at Long Island University in Brooklyn, one at Fordham in New York.
SM (01:05:32):
Oh yeah.
DU (01:05:33):
And one at William Patterson [inaudible 01:05:37] in New Jersey.
SM (01:05:40):
Oh yes, Mm-hmm.
DU (01:05:40):
I taught at all three of those places during or after the time that I was at Columbia. Those were the strange years when my contract was not renewed at William Patterson there was some sort of uprising on the campus. And [inaudible 01:06:05] student strike and marches and demonstrations and all. I do not know [inaudible 01:06:12].
SM (01:06:14):
Well, they protested because you were not reinstated.
DU (01:06:17):
Yes, yes.
SM (01:06:18):
Oh, my golly. Do you think it was politically done?
DU (01:06:24):
Yes.
SM (01:06:27):
And why do you think they did that?
DU (01:06:32):
Well, I did not recite the party line.
SM (01:06:42):
Oh, and so that was it? It just did not become part of the in crowd, so to speak.
DU (01:06:51):
No, I did not.
SM (01:06:51):
And yet you were a very good teacher?
DU (01:06:57):
Well, opinions differ about that amongst students, as they are wont to do. But enough thought that I was. And enough they made a terrible fuss on the campus over that. But those were the years when any good cause would bring out a crowd on a campus. Late (19)60s, early (19)70s.
SM (01:07:21):
Right.
DU (01:07:24):
But it was pretty much a state university, a commuter college, largely blue-collar working class, Italian boys and the Mark Rudd and those folks, the downtown people that I dealt with said it was impossible to [inaudible 01:07:52] any kind of student rising on a campus like that, because those folks were the redneck regressives.
SM (01:08:01):
Oh. Or Richard Nixon's silent majority.
DU (01:08:06):
Yes. Yes, yes.
SM (01:08:06):
Yes.
DU (01:08:07):
And so, the downtown folks were astonished at what kind of uprising occurred on that campus. I was not. I expected it. I did not have any doubt.
SM (01:08:22):
What did you teach?
DU (01:08:23):
Political science.
SM (01:08:27):
Were they upset with the way you taught it? You encouraged students to protest, or−
DU (01:08:33):
All of the above.
SM (01:08:35):
It is interesting, David, in my junior year as a student at Binghamton my sociology professor got fired because he led a protest in downtown Binghamton next to the John Dickinson statue. I will never forget it. He was not asked to be back the next year.
DU (01:08:53):
Yes, this was that kind of thing.
SM (01:08:56):
Yeah, and then when I was in high school in the mid (19)60s a teacher was summarily fired because they called him a Communist.
DU (01:09:07):
Yes.
SM (01:09:07):
And that was a high school.
DU (01:09:12):
Yes. This was that sort of thing.
SM (01:09:14):
Yeah. When you think of the Boomer generation and the era of the (19)60s and (19)70s what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
DU (01:09:31):
There is too many [inaudible 01:09:35].
SM (01:09:33):
And speak up, please.
DU (01:09:33):
Well, there is no first thing. There is a wealth of things that come to mind.
SM (01:09:43):
Just give me some examples.
DU (01:09:44):
If was a frightened and fruitful disorder.
SM (01:09:55):
Mm-hmm?
DU (01:09:57):
And there was a kind of careless bravery.
PART 2 OF 5 ENDS [01:10:04]
DU (01:10:03):
There was a kind of careless bravery among people who thought what they thought were great wrongs that needed to be righted and maybe could not, but you had tried anyway. And so, they did. And often the effort came to nothing and sometimes great to grief. Still, there was a kind of careless bravery that people were willing to proceed anyway.
SM (01:10:42):
When you look at those (19)50s, the period when you were in Boise, I have always felt as a person who grew up in Cortland, New York in the (19)50s, that there were three qualities that most young people had until they went to junior high school and maybe went to senior high school in the mid (19)60s. And that is that they were weird to be very quiet. They were very naive. As someone said, "Well, are not all young people naive?" But I think they were especially naive. And there was a fear. The fear that many of them had was because in the early years, if they were young, they saw this man screaming on TV saying, "Are you, or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?" And subconsciously affecting people saying that, "I better not speak up, because if I speak up, I could be called a communist or afraid," and of course, living in the nuclear age and the threat of the bomb. And of course, television was very, basically I hardly ever saw a person of color. And Cowboys and Indians were a big thing. I mean, everything was hunky Dory. There were some serious shows like Edward R. Murrow and Dave Garroway, and Mike Wallace, but they were few and far between. And then naive is the TV helped the naivete. Just your thoughts, whether you think those are three characteristics that really− You agree?
DU (01:12:22):
Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, when I said careless bravery, that described the reaction to this fear. When you realized that instilled fear was preventing you from exploring the world you inhabited, then careless bravery would give you the courage to do so. Without that, you would succumb to the fear and accept the [inaudible 01:12:59] that had been prepared for you.
SM (01:13:03):
Yeah. Because we were talking about some of these books that were written in the (19)50s, The End of Ideology, by Daniel Bell, basically the Marxism is no longer a threat. It is dying, it is no longer important. Then you had the White Collar: [The American Middle Classes], by C. Wright Mills, The Organization Man, all these things that were− This is the way it was for the parents of the boomers. And boy, and lot of boomers did not want to have any part of that. What do you feel were some of the strengths and weaknesses of the boomer generation as you experienced via your own peers, knowing that no one can talk about 74 million boomers? But were there strengths and weaknesses within the group as you knew the boomers that you were with? Not only as an activist yourself, but as a teacher who taught in the classroom, some boomers as you were a graduate student. And you saw protests and, or many that did not go to protests.
DU (01:14:17):
Yeah. Well, that is always the majority.
SM (01:14:22):
Do you have any strengths or weaknesses?
DU (01:14:33):
I was impressed by the people who were willing to apply their own understanding what they observed and act on it best their knowledge, even if that conflicted of the truth that they had been taught. And the ones who were willing to do that were always available if you could find them and were always willing to take an unnecessary stand. But you had to look for them and you had to cultivate them.
SM (01:15:35):
Would you see any weakness?
DU (01:15:39):
I recognize even to the extent that you yourself possess those qualities, sometimes they would wane and falter, and you would be in danger of losing those qualities yourself. [inaudible 01:15:55] struggled [inaudible 01:15:57].
SM (01:15:58):
Speak up again, David.
DU (01:16:00):
Was a constant struggle. So, alert and committed because the temptation is too otherwise great, and the rewards were great. But if you wanted to put yourself position where looking back, you could say, "If I had to do over, I would not do it different," then you had to take the approach I did. That is what I thought. I did not want to have to look back say, "I wish I had done this or that." [inaudible 01:16:36] greatly different.
SM (01:16:40):
It is like someone says, the philosopher says when you are on your deathbed and your life passes before you, you hope you− It is not all about the car, the money, the house. It was about what you have done with your life.
DU (01:16:55):
Yeah.
SM (01:16:55):
And I think what you are saying is that you are very comfortable with that. Do you like the term, "the boomer generation"?
DU (01:17:02):
I never use it. I never felt a part of it. I mean, I am not precisely demographically. I am born two years before, but also, I did not participate much in that a lifestyle encapsulated in that phrase. Boomer generation, the act of [inaudible 01:17:37] boomer generation was yuppies as much as anything else.
SM (01:17:48):
Oh yeah. That was a term in the (19)80s.
DU (01:17:55):
Never part of that, I hope.
SM (01:17:58):
Yeah. Lot of them thought they were the most unique generation in American history. Your thoughts on that?
DU (01:18:05):
No.
SM (01:18:05):
No?
DU (01:18:09):
No, everybody like think that about themselves, but no. I faced certain challenges and opportunities and just did what I thought my circumstances to my personality at that particular time and place required. At one point, I was something called the International Fellows program at Columbia, which was supposedly a select group of graduate students who were ushered off DC for meetings with important people in 50 agencies, and who have had the special seminars, some have dinners with important people back on the campus. International, it really was really a screening and recruiting of program for replacement part for the establishment.
SM (01:19:30):
Oh wow.
DU (01:19:30):
In the course that, I mean, it was if you were selected for this, I knew without being told that these opportunities were in front of you. You were being groomed for your place in the establishment. So, we went off to Washington and we were taken to the Pentagon [inaudible 01:19:59] and we were taken to the CIA. We were taken to the State Department, had a meeting with the Secretary of State Dean Rusk at time.
SM (01:20:11):
Wow.
DU (01:20:19):
About 10 of us, International Fellows program, one or two [inaudible 01:20:19]. And this was in, I do not know, (19)68, (19)69 there about when the country was in and up. Campus was [inaudible 01:20:30]. And it was a strange time of trouble and [inaudible 01:20:36]. And every day is filled, the horror as slaughter [inaudible 01:20:45] interpretated in your name and with your money on the far side world. And here you were inside the digital to the folks who were performing these things.
SM (01:20:57):
Wow.
DU (01:21:04):
Face-to-face with what are you going do? In these small group meetings, they were looking at on the table with the Secretary of State or with Peters with the CIA and the Pentagon. And I knew how you were supposed to behave. And I just would not, or could not, or did not at each of those places. So, the professor in charge of the program tried to avoid me. Could not forever ignore my hand once [inaudible 01:21:42]. And each of those places, I have made some kind of comment [inaudible 01:21:51].
SM (01:21:51):
Speak up, too.
DU (01:21:54):
I made a comment or raised some kind of question, essentially, got our group thrown out of the Pentagon, CIA. And they [inaudible 01:22:06] brought those meetings to an end.
SM (01:22:09):
Just by your question?
DU (01:22:11):
Yes.
SM (01:22:11):
Oh my God.
DU (01:22:15):
Oh. And the meeting was quickly wrapped up. And the Secondary of State excused himself, and he was gone.
SM (01:22:21):
What were the questions?
DU (01:22:24):
Oh, I do not remember for sure. I mean, it was first designed to make them address things that they did not want to address.
SM (01:22:33):
Did you, by accidentally say, "Secretary warmonger, I mean, Secretary Rusk"?
DU (01:22:40):
That is not my [inaudible 01:22:42]. It was something oblique, but pointed and unmistakable. I do not remember for sure, but what I do remember one CIA. We were in a big room, not all that [inaudible 01:23:12]. Across one wall of this room was a big painting of China. Was done all up red China. The evil empire. And along one back wall of these one-way mirrors so you knew you were being watched, recorded. God, they were so creepy. Oh, when we get there, we walked down these long hallways where you pass doors and file cabinets that had combination locked rather than handles on the doors. And you had to sign in the beginning. And get one of these ID badges which not common at time [inaudible 01:23:53]. Got up the meeting at the big room to go to the men's room just around the corner, somebody appeared from somewhere and followed you there. That kind of setting.
SM (01:24:04):
Wow.
DU (01:24:06):
And in that setting, what they [inaudible 01:24:07]. And they had told us about all the wonderful things the CIA does and how abroad, and only in the gathering intelligence provides for the safety of the American system. And I told the story of something I had encountered in Alabama that gave the clear impression that somebody who worked for the CIA was spying on me and some of my companions and trying to sabotage our operations, contrary to what we had just been told by these people. Oh, and the whole room fell silent. And they brought that meeting to an end. And we went down this long hallway and everybody else in the group was shied away from, but I was a big, invisible bubble around. CIA, nobody wanted to be anywhere near me, all got on the bus and only half people [inaudible 01:25:12] out CIA compound. One of the guys [inaudible 01:25:15], "Yeah, thank you. I am [inaudible 01:25:17]." But until then, they did not know me. That was what happened CIA.
SM (01:25:26):
Wow. Who was the professor that ran that?
DU (01:25:31):
I do not-
SM (01:25:31):
Do not remember? And I think I know how you are going to respond to this, but how do you respond to conservative critics of the generation reared in the (19)50s and involved in the (19)60s and (19)70s activism that many of the problems in our society today center around the drug culture, the sexual freedom, the lack of respect for authority, challenging the system, rock and roll, long hair, clothes; counterculture, that kind of− And a lot of them, whether it be Newt Gingrich or George [Wilson's 01:26:07] commentaries, or even on Fox, you hear it all the time. There is Mike Huckabee. You hear it all the time, "back then," or "the (19)60s" and all this other stuff. What do you think of when you hear of that stuff?
DU (01:26:22):
Those are the fees of illegitimate authorities that cannot command respect by-
SM (01:26:39):
Speak up, and please speak up.
DU (01:26:39):
− Those are the fees of illegitimate authority that cannot command respect by deeds and [inaudible 01:26:48] vague or [inaudible 01:26:51] people to accepting their authority. Authority that worthy of respect does not have demand it, conferred without the request. Authority that does not deserve respect should not expect it. The way the American authority is played in their conduct [inaudible 01:27:24] abroad and in their treatment of fellow citizens, like in civil rights era showed them me as unworthy of respect. I did not respect them. Maybe on as individuals, maybe, but as legitimate authorities, no. And as for the rest of it, all those things you cited, [inaudible 01:27:56] whatever else you said, I never considered myself or hippy crowd-
SM (01:28:04):
Oh, the counterculture crowd.
DU (01:28:06):
− No.
SM (01:28:07):
Yeah.
DU (01:28:08):
But everybody in that era was affected by it. But I was never a participant. When I was at Woodstock, I went to Woodstock.
SM (01:28:24):
Wow. You were there?
DU (01:28:25):
Oh yeah. I mean, it was happening in the vicinity, and it was obviously a big event. And the governor of New York came on the radio and said, "This is a disaster. Do not go there." And when I heard that, I thought, "Well, damn. I got to go."
SM (01:28:36):
Were you there all four days?
DU (01:28:43):
No. For about two days.
SM (01:28:45):
You were there during the rains?
DU (01:28:47):
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. What I remember mostly is long before you see it and long before you could even hear it, you could smell it because of the rain, all the garbage and the [inaudible 01:29:00].
SM (01:29:00):
Oh yeah. You remember the musicians you saw?
DU (01:29:03):
Well, you did not get close enough too much. It was so heard, smelled, could not get very close [inaudible 01:29:19] but I did not.
SM (01:29:22):
Yeah, you were not in that group that was sliding down on the mud and that-
DU (01:29:27):
Not purpose, I mean, some ways you slid in the mud, just could not help.
SM (01:29:34):
Some people's cars were parked five miles away.
DU (01:29:37):
Oh yeah. Mine, I mean, I was a long ways off and walk. I am glad I went, because I mean, it was a phenomenon. But I did not really feel like a participant. I was there. That was not my kind of scene.
SM (01:30:00):
Did you see a lot of spaced out people?
DU (01:30:02):
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I did not like that. I did not participate in that. And I thought that was system's deliberate way of turning people off from activism. I agreed with the pretty much the old hard nose [inaudible 01:30:30] type about that. This was all bread and circuses and the opiate of the masses stuff designed to divert them from their [inaudible 01:30:44] ought to be their true cause. I was inclined to agree with that.
SM (01:30:47):
I know when I interviewed Richie Havens, Richie Havens said that it was a tremendous happening because they are finally listening to us. He said in 1969, referring to the people, the young people that were there and the musicians. "They are finally listening to us," and he thought that was a magic moment there. The media has played a huge role in− I can read my, I do not want my glasses here, in terms of "outlining and showing the extravagant and extremes over the norms of the 1960s." Knowing that 85 to 90 percent of the young people were not even involved in activism, I still feel they were subconsciously affected. The media is supposed to cover controversy and news, not create it with one-sided presentations. And I think what we are seeing, even with the 40th anniversary of Woodstock and all these anniversaries of Ken State, and the media seems to only go after the sensational. And what are your thoughts on the media? You were part of it for a while.
DU (01:32:01):
Oh yeah. I have been part of the media. And in my activist guises, I mean, I have relied on the media to publicize what I was doing, spread the word. And it took a mutually exploitive [inaudible 01:32:33] understood by everybody, all that you are providing them with a product, they sell of advertisers because they will [inaudible 01:32:50] interest and viewers and listeners. And in exchange, they provide you with some access for your ideas to people who otherwise would not counter.
SM (01:33:08):
And in your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
DU (01:33:17):
(19)60s began in 1956 or there about.
SM (01:33:27):
About when?
DU (01:33:28):
In 1956. The (19)60s began with the civil rights movement, Brown versus Board of Education and the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Those then showed that the existing system was not ordained forever. And that change was actually possible. That began in the (19)50s. And me, that is, (19)60s have not stopped.
SM (01:34:11):
Is there a watershed moment?
DU (01:34:17):
The assassination Martin Luther King of-
SM (01:34:24):
(19)68.
DU (01:34:25):
− the course of stream of time. About watershed, yeah.
SM (01:34:32):
Yeah. That year, (19)68. Where were you when JFK was killed? Do you know the exact moment where you were?
DU (01:34:40):
Yeah, I was on the campus at Harvard. And actually I was, I did a little announcing work for the Harvard student radio station. Soon as I heard Kennedy had been shot, I went to station. And I was the one who announced over the WHRB, that was Harvard radio that Harvard graduate, John Kennedy, had died.
SM (01:35:18):
Wow. But did you have the TV on right there with Walter Cronkite or the other channels?
DU (01:35:30):
Oh, that probably. I do not remember for certain what all the connections, the technical connections were in the radio [inaudible 01:35:41]. I was in the Harvard yard when word first read Kennedy had been shot.
SM (01:35:50):
Wow.
DU (01:35:50):
And went immediately to the radio station. I was one of the regular announcers did mostly classical music program. And the assignment of announcing Kennedy's death over Harvard radio.
SM (01:36:10):
Did you take any calls or did you just announce it and leave? Or were-were you on for a while?
DU (01:36:19):
We interrupted regular programming course.
SM (01:36:23):
Okay.
DU (01:36:25):
News bulletin as they arrived, I was helping do that and news of his death [inaudible 01:36:35] and I was [inaudible 01:36:36] a somber moment. I had-
SM (01:36:39):
Now on that campus on those four days, it was a Friday through Monday. So obviously somber all over the country. Were you in your residence hall room− Or you were probably watching all the students on TV or all the events from the-
DU (01:36:57):
Radio station.
SM (01:36:59):
− Right. But when you left the radio station, did most of the students watch it on their television set?
DU (01:37:05):
Remember specifically.
SM (01:37:07):
Right.
DU (01:37:07):
Probably. But I do not recall.
SM (01:37:11):
Did the university do anything?
DU (01:37:15):
I was looking to see even Lee Harvey Oswald got shot, remember seeing that.
SM (01:37:17):
Yes, that was on Sunday. Wow.
DU (01:37:21):
That was when you first began to think, "Oh, there is something going on here beyond what is acknowledged."
SM (01:37:33):
When the students at Harvard knew that he had died, what were you talking with each other as students trying to figure out why and how could this happen in America? Or what? It only happens in other countries?
DU (01:37:55):
I remember all of those speculations. There is such absurd welter of recollections that it is impossible me to separate actually what I thought, learned at one time or another about that from thought or learned at another. Any speculation or data that you have come across connect with that is probably something that I do and added to my fund of uncertain knowledge, which I still have. I do not feel I understand who did better, how that happened. I certainly do not believe Harvey Oswald all by himself went out decided that he was going change history by killing the president.
SM (01:38:58):
You already defined the term activism and talked about it with respect to university campuses. And we were talking about the influence that student protest had on universities, whether it was lasting or whatever. But the question I am coming up with here is, are today's universities, after− I guess what I am going to say here is− I read my words here. Define volunteerism in your own words. You have already divine activism, (19)60s activism compared to today's volunteerism. What I am trying to say is that I feel that the universities today are afraid of the term activism because it brings back memories of that period in the (19)60s where there were disruptions and certainly disruption of classes, and certainly more student power, as Tom Hayden used to said, empowerment, not just power. And it is very nice to have volunteerism because volunteerism is required in fraternities and sororities. And this is what all students do, volunteer work, and probably over 90 percent of the students are doing it on all campuses. But there is a big difference in my opinion between activism, which is 24 hours a day, seven days a week mentality, and volunteerism, which is only a couple hours a week. Am I right in feeling that today's universities are afraid of activism on college campuses? Of course, they say volunteerism is their activism.
DU (01:40:46):
I cannot address that much in relation to universities because I do not have regular [inaudible 01:40:52] at a university. But around communities where I have lived, and I do. And to me, by volunteerism is free labor on behalf of system. And activism is a challenge system.
SM (01:41:19):
And are you saying that people do not like to be challenged?
DU (01:41:25):
Some do, some do not. I have done both. Just this morning before talking to you, I was had a big meeting convened by the governor of a commission to supposedly plan and arrange for the restoration of the oil rec Gulf coast. Even though I was [inaudible 01:41:50] by the very establishment business sort of commission that the governor put together with a few [inaudible 01:42:00] came environmentalists on board. But not the likes of me, but I went anyway and just appeared there and participated in the sense of an activist, rather than a volunteer. In the discussions of [inaudible 01:42:23] and raise some question, brought up some issues that I do not think would have been on the agenda at all, otherwise. That is what activists does. And then they all went to a catered lunch without me. I was not invited.
SM (01:42:53):
Well, obviously, is this Harvard reincarnation?
DU (01:42:59):
Sort of, yeah.
SM (01:43:02):
Well, that is good. Because you go with your own drummer, so to speak. Your thoughts on when the anti-war movement turned violent out of frustration? We all know the history of Students for Democratic Society. They did have a lot of respect. But when it split into the Weathermen, everything changed and SDS really died. We had the Black Panthers who were carrying guns on university campuses at Cornell− Well, students at Cornell were carrying guns, but Black Panthers were always saying that they needed guns to protect themselves from the police because police were being brutal every day. And you had the American Indian movement in 1973, and the violence at Wounded Knee. So you saw, and I know that in the Chicano community and the Young Bloods, they copied the Black Panthers. This is my thought: to me, this hurt all movements, and is why the neocons and conservatives write are legitimate in their attacks on the period itself, because they look at those things that were really negative, even amongst liberals. And your thoughts on when it went violent?
DU (01:44:20):
When I first heard [inaudible 01:44:25] others who became and then Bernardine Dohrn and those folks who became the Weathermen talking that way. I was in many meetings with most of those folks, one time or another, around Columbia in Cortland, New York. By the time they pick up the gun, they were carrying on in that fashion. It was hard for me keep from laughing because they were talking of harming themselves in order to carry out the revolution that they knew was just on the verge-
PART 3 OF 5 ENDS [01:45:04]
DU (01:45:03):
To carry out the revolution that they knew was just on the verge of break out. And it was so ludicrous, mistaken understanding their place. It was tempting to laugh, and I could not because they were obviously so serious about it.
SM (01:45:27):
Please speak up again.
DU (01:45:29):
And they are obviously so serious about it.
SM (01:45:31):
Uh-huh [affirmative].
DU (01:45:31):
And some of them, like Ted Gold who'd dead because of it. And I remember saying to them, in some of these meetings, if you think you need an armed cadre to carry out the revolution of his ripe, you do not need to be picking up the gun belt and going off weekend encampment to teach yourself how to shoot. I said, this whole country is armed. You need to recruit those people who have guns and know how to use them, to your side. If you try, without them to do this, you are going to be the losers. In short order and big time, they were. They did not want to recruit to their side of the proletarian task of who were armed and might be ready for revolution. They wanted to reside over a revolution that they directed. And they were nowhere close to having historical opportunity or the political organization to help them− It is baffling to me, that they could have been so hallucinatorily deranged about this, but they were.
SM (01:47:03):
We all know about the Weathermen, and interesting, Black Panther's always used− It is so confusing. Black Panthers said they were not a violent group, and they had guns only to protect themselves. And some would say, well look what happened to the killing of Fred Hampton in Chicago. "We had to protect ourselves or they will come and kill us all."
DU (01:47:24):
Right.
SM (01:47:24):
And then of course we had the COINTELPRO, which did terrible things, infiltrating organizations. And some people have even gone to the extreme of saying that the reason why the Weathermen went violent is because of infiltrators that were from the CIA who encouraged them to become violent so that they would become illegitimate.
DU (01:47:44):
I am sure some of that happened.
SM (01:47:47):
I just, you see you have got all this stuff here, but most people are against violence. Dr. King was nonviolent protest. Then you get the Stokely Carmichael types and then Malcolm's, by any means necessary. And I think Malcolm was believing in taking guns to protect oneself, not to kill people. But this is a very, it is very confusing. You have to look at it in its context. But would not you say that whenever there is violence, it creates a negative image for any group?
DU (01:48:25):
Malcolm said that it is almost a criminal act to tell somebody under assault, he should not defend himself.
SM (01:48:35):
Say that again.
DU (01:48:36):
Malcolm said, it is almost a criminal act, to teach somebody who is under assault, that he should not defend himself.
SM (01:48:43):
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
DU (01:48:45):
And I was inclined to agree with that. Right? And I think people like him and the Black Panthers, for the most part, were defending themselves. And in case by Fred Hanson, not successfully.
SM (01:49:05):
What did you think of that scene at Cornell University in (19)69 of students with guns walking out of the union? What was that all about?
DU (01:49:15):
A new guy from Mobile. He went to Cornell with a pistol, tried to get the education that he thought he deserved.
SM (01:49:33):
He was in that group?
DU (01:49:36):
I do not think he was in that group, but he briefly went to Cornell. And he believed that Cornell intended not to provide him with education. And that the whole system was set up to provide him with an education.
SM (01:49:52):
Right.
DU (01:49:52):
That if he did not threaten violence, he was not going to get an education.
SM (01:49:56):
Wow.
DU (01:50:05):
That was−
SM (01:50:05):
This is a question that, took a group of students to Washington DC in 1995 to meet Senator Musky. There were 14 of us. And the students came up with this question on the issue of healing. And the question was this, that they asked the Senator, due to the extreme divisions that took place in the 1960s and early (19)70s, between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war and those were against the war, and those who supported the troops or against the troops, and all the other divisions that took place at that time. Witnessing what happened in America in 1968, with the two assassinations and the convention and turmoil of police beating heads, a president withdrawing, burnings in the cities, talk that we were heading toward a second civil war. Do you feel that the (19)60s, or the boomer generation, is going to its grave like the Civil War generation as a generation that will never heal from the divisions that tore them apart?
DU (01:51:20):
No, because I do not think the divisions were anywhere near as a deep or grave as Civil War divisions. Civil War divisions are still here. What is Faulkner's famous quote about, the past is gone, it is even past? Something like that.
SM (01:51:50):
His what now?
DU (01:51:53):
Faulkner said, the past has been forgotten in the fact it is not even past. Something to that.
SM (01:52:00):
Okay.
DU (01:52:05):
That legacy is still with us every day. But you see that around Alabama, anywhere you look. So, this business of the Boomer Era, I do not think it is anywhere near the−
SM (01:52:26):
Yeah.
DU (01:52:27):
The sound of that.
SM (01:52:30):
The students thought that Senator Musky would talk about 1968, because he was the vice presidential running mate at that convention. And he mentioned nothing about (19)68. He basically said we have not healed since the Civil War and the issue of race. And then he went on to talk about that at length, and that we had lost 430,000 men in that war, almost an entire generation in the south. So, you are kind of right in your assumptions, or not right, but you agree with the Senator Musky. One of the qualities that often is labeled in this generation, is they are not a very trusting generation, because they all witnessed, including those that were not activists, so many presidents and leaders who lied to them. Whether it be the experience of Watergate, the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which a lot of people knew was a lie by (19)65, by President Johnson. Then you had the U-2 incident where President Eisenhower lied on national television. You had so many other politicians who had lied. Nobody trusted the information coming back from Vietnam because they knew that the counts that were being presented in American public included animals and all kinds of things. So, the lies were conscious. So young Black Boomers did not trust anyone in positions of authority, whether it be a minister or a rabbi, priest, university president, vice president of student affairs, Congressman, Senator, any corporate leader, anybody in position of responsibility. But do you feel that is a negative quality or a positive quality, this lacking of trust?
DU (01:54:19):
I think it is a positive quality not to trust if the trust is untrustworthy. If you truly are being misled and misused by those in positions of authority, you had better distrust them.
SM (01:54:35):
Do you believe what a lot of political science believe?
DU (01:54:40):
What?
SM (01:54:41):
Do you believe what a lot of political scientists believe that the sign of a true democracy is when you do not trust your government? Because that means that liberty and democracy is alive and well?
DU (01:54:54):
No. In a democracy you would be able to trust the government.
SM (01:55:02):
Right. But if you do not trust it, that is okay too, isn't it?
DU (01:55:06):
No, that is not a democracy.
SM (01:55:11):
Explain the−
DU (01:55:15):
If you do not trust it, then you believe that it is effectively operating against your interest. That cannot be a democracy, unless you are some sort of autocrat. In that case, if it is not operating against you, it might be a democracy. But if you are part of the demos, and you do not trust the government, then it is not a democracy. Because you were rightly doubtful about it toward you.
SM (01:55:54):
I got about 10-
DU (01:55:54):
Oh, I think the need to distrust it is an unhealthy, not a healthy one.
SM (01:56:06):
Can we go 10 more minutes? Because I have got about 10 more minutes here.
DU (01:56:10):
Yeah.
SM (01:56:10):
Okay. What did we learn from Vietnam?
DU (01:56:17):
Next to nothing, near as I know.
SM (01:56:22):
What have we forgotten about Vietnam?
DU (01:56:29):
What was the story about the French regime, about how they had learned nothing and had forgotten nothing?
SM (01:56:39):
Who was that now, the French regime?
DU (01:56:43):
The ancient regime on the verge of the−
SM (01:56:44):
Oh, okay.
DU (01:56:45):
− the overthrow. That they were incapable of learning. The circumstances changed, but they had not forgotten any of their old resentments or loyalty. They had learned nothing and forgotten nothing. I think the Vietnam experience is similar. Learned nothing, forgot nothing. My belief, it is one of the− The radio station anymore says this stuff.
SM (01:57:14):
And please speak up.
DU (01:57:18):
I said, one of the reasons I am not at the radio station anymore, because I said this stuff on the air. When these new wars are on it, I believe that the anti-war movement saved the world from World War III. Because without it, I think the pro war element in Washington would have pushed that Vietnam forward to the point where they brought China to war. Because China was never going to accept American victory, or even the approach of American victory. Vietnam, just sad not in Korea. So if pro-war folks had been able to have their way, and supply all of their resources, including even nuclear ones to that war, they would have pushed it to the point where they brought China in before. And that would have made World War III.
SM (01:58:10):
Wow.
DU (01:58:10):
Nuclear World War III. The anti-war movement prevented the warriors in Washington doing that. And in the process, I think saved the world from World War III.
SM (01:58:30):
Uh- huh [affirmative]
DU (01:58:30):
But that does not mean that those in command of the forces who could create World War III learned this lesson. I do not think they did.
SM (01:58:47):
Wow.
DU (01:58:48):
Which means that some anti-war movement may need to rise again, form the same active probation. Of chief difference now is that there is not booming over these current wars, prospect of another superpower able to challenge America in a way that could bring on World War. That is not apparent at the moment it could be. It could appear, as yet, but it certainly was apparent in Vietnam and the memory of the Cuban Missile Crisis. It instructed you about that every time you gave it a thought. So I believe the antiwar movement saved us from that, and that there was not the recognition of thanks for doing so. That does not get it. It is still a curse to call somebody a hippie.
SM (01:59:49):
Right.
DU (02:00:02):
In fact, when Bush started his wars, I was, for a little while allowed to be on the radio, there were people who detected the card of my anti-war, who were just puzzled. Many were furious and calling me a traitor and in a sense calling for a death sentence if you opposed. Some were just puzzled. And then−
SM (02:00:30):
Okay.
DU (02:00:32):
And they said, "How can you, you just oppose war? You are against war?" They were puzzle that anybody would think war was a bad idea.
SM (02:00:55):
Unbelievable.
DU (02:00:59):
Not only do I think it is bad, I think those who stood up against the Vietnam War save the world from ruin. They should be honored for it, as it is filed and said, those who ordered the war and those who carried it out are honored. And that legacy sets us up for more of the same.
SM (02:01:28):
It is interesting, it is just like it is a brand-new book. I buy everything on Vietnam that I can read. But in the Vietnam section, if you go to Barnes & Noble right now, and even Borders, there is a brand-new book out on Tet. We would have won Tet, and that is what the book is about. And this is about a guy from Vietnam who was there, and this is how we would have won Tet. I do not want to hear that. And that is again saying, we actually did not lose Tet, but in the eyes of our public, it affected us. And that is a lot of the reason why President Johnson withdrew. But when you learned, when you hear words, oftentimes there were slogans that were said at the time of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, just what did these few slogans or actually words mean to you? And the first one is, we already mentioned, "By any means necessary." What did Malcolm mean by that?
DU (02:02:34):
That is playing on his face. That is not that ambiguous, I do not think. He was saying that we are not going to accept the status that you have forced upon us.
SM (02:02:44):
And please speak up.
DU (02:02:45):
We are not going to accept that it is forced upon us. And whatever is required to alter that, is what we will do. Even if that means we must die in the trying, which he did.
SM (02:03:08):
How about JFK in his inaugural, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." So supposedly it was inspired by young people, and it was, at the University of Michigan. And then he had a great guy named Sergeant Schreiber, who kind of carried it down with a Peace Corps in one area. But it really inspired a lot of people, even to go into the service.
DU (02:03:29):
Oh, it did. It did. And it has often been taken in a plea for people to surrender themselves to the suffocating embrace of the state. But that was not what Kennedy meant and that was not how it was taken at the time. Rather, it was a call to set aside your private headache turn for a greater communal turn. Enacted through the machinery of the state, which at the time, was widely believed to me a magnificent and efficient operation that could actually enact higher ideals than individual personal satisfaction.
SM (02:04:39):
His other one that we all know is, "We will bear any burden, pay any price." And a lot of people believe that set the tone for the Vietnam war.
DU (02:04:48):
Yep.
SM (02:04:49):
Do you believe that? Because he was long dead after we had the advisors there, but it was Johnson who brought the troops in.
DU (02:04:59):
Who knows what Kennedy had signed, or Sorenson who probably wrote it. And that sounds like inaugural bluffery to me. So, Kennedy, he did pay any price, did not he?
SM (02:05:30):
Yeah, he did. And "Bear any burden, pay any price." Of course, that fall, the DM regime fell just about a month before he was assassinated. So there was a lot going on there.
DU (02:05:44):
It did not fall, it was [inaudible 02:05:44]
SM (02:05:44):
Yeah.
DU (02:05:45):
Right?
SM (02:05:45):
Yeah.
DU (02:05:47):
Yeah.
SM (02:05:47):
I believe the President was shocked though that they were killed.
DU (02:05:49):
Oh, okay.
SM (02:05:51):
Yeah. Robert Kennedy's favorite slogan was, "Some men see things as they are and ask why, I see things that never were and ask why not?" That was not his original quote, but he used it. I believe he quoted that in Indianapolis the night that Dr. King was−
DU (02:06:08):
That is right.
SM (02:06:10):
That is kind of an activist mentality, isn't it? It is kind of a−
DU (02:06:14):
Yes it is. Yep.
SM (02:06:16):
That is pretty inspirational. Would you say that is how see would some of your light?
DU (02:06:26):
Yes, I suppose. And I do not think those are a mark of his brothers. The way they are now, he talked through the histrionics of a bloated federal− I took them as a plea for a turn toward common rather than individual health values. And exercise to the coordination of state. It sounds quaint now to say that because they have lost a cluster of being in a capable institution. But those things were said by the Kennedys, at a time much closer to the New Deal than we are now to the time when Kennedy said those things.
SM (02:07:46):
Right. Yep.
DU (02:07:52):
And the apparent success of the New Deal in raising a whole stratum of the population out of destitution, to some hopeful life, was still very much on people's mind.
SM (02:08:08):
The one that, obviously you being in the south for a long time, "We shall overcome." Of course, the song is historic and you hear it all the time today. And certainly hear it on Dr. King's birthday. But how does that impact you?
DU (02:08:30):
It keeps you going when nothing else will.
SM (02:08:36):
Mm-hmm.
DU (02:08:40):
It did so during a movement era when you knew that you had some kind of mass and some kind of momentum with you, but also knew that you had stirred up a determined and even deadly persistence. So that song and the sentiment sustains you. And it also sustains you in times when that movement is gone, and you are operating much of the time, almost alone, and in the darkness. And you have to pause and wonder why.
SM (02:09:18):
Right.
DU (02:09:18):
And that song and its sentiments help carry on when nothing else will.
SM (02:09:27):
There was the one that, " Tune in, turn on, drop out," was Timothy Leary. Your thoughts on that?
DU (02:09:38):
Leary was not my favorite. I never ever was attracted to what he was doing. Diversionary at best, destructive at worse.
SM (02:09:57):
This−
DU (02:09:57):
I also thought that the sort of people he appealed to most were folks who had, somewhere in the privileged echelon, who had lots of cushions they could fall back on if they made any big mistakes in life. But others who did not have the cushion to fall back on, if they followed Leary's ways, and made one or two big mistakes, they were probably finished forever. But Leary and his buddy Albert came from an appeal who knew that they had lots of cushions that they could stop and they could bounce back. Most people could not, and they were going to be victims rather than liberated.
SM (02:10:55):
How about the women's movement and, "All politics is personal"?
DU (02:11:07):
I do not believe all politics is personal. But some politics are politics.
SM (02:11:18):
That was the slogan of the National Organization for Women, when they started, how politics was personal.
DU (02:11:26):
It is in line with a lot of these others we have been talking about. I did not participate in it, as much as the others. I have never called myself a feminist. Some men do. I cannot believe in calling myself a feminist, but I acknowledge that it has greatly altered society.
SM (02:11:56):
Then there was, on the Peter Max posters that were very popular in the early (19)70s, the hippie mentality. "You do your thing; I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful."
DU (02:12:11):
Yeah.
SM (02:12:15):
You like that kind of mentality?
DU (02:12:19):
No. I mean−
SM (02:12:20):
Yeah.
DU (02:12:21):
And an activist does not believe that.
SM (02:12:25):
Right.
DU (02:12:27):
Activists are always speaking organization, and direction, and purpose. And what that requires, people become loosened from, if not separated, loosened from their familiar ways besides, so that they are willing to think about and do different things of, they won't become so loose unless they adopt some of that hippy attitude. But if they become the stuff of hippies, then they disappear from that active life.
SM (02:13:05):
How about the−
DU (02:13:06):
They are no help.
SM (02:13:07):
This was, there is actually two of them from Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone over 30." And then he changed it to 40. And then, do it, which was the title of his book, Do It. They were kind of the yippie mentality, the yippies.
DU (02:13:25):
Yeah.
SM (02:13:28):
Any thoughts on that?
DU (02:13:32):
Abbie Hoffman spoke once at the State University here in Mobile, and offered to jump off the stage and into the audience and try to punch me out. He was restrained by some of the other professors on the stage who had invited him to speak. Because I had challenged from the audience, during the question period, about exactly these sort of things. The message he and Rubin said lured people away from activism and turned them off rather than turned them on. And in many cases, physically or emotionally wrecked them, affected them into a life of drugs, of the opposite of raising them consciousness activism. And he was more of a digressive than a progressive influence because of that. Ooh−
SM (02:14:44):
Wow.
DU (02:14:46):
He was pissed. He wanted to jump off the stage and have it out on the spot with me, he said. And made some motions like he was going to do that, but I think he would probably seized, some of the other jumped up and grabbed him.
SM (02:15:02):
It is amazing, because of the perceptions I have had from between Abbie and Jerry is Jerry was not a likable person and Abbie was. And Abbie lived a lifetime of activism, but Jerry went off to make money. It is an interesting story. I have interviewed a lot of his friends. Here is one, the last one here is, "One giant step for man, one giant leap for mankind," which is Neil Armstrong. Even though it was up in space, it still has, I think, a meaning to a lot of the (19)60s and (19)70s. Because if we actually accomplished something, we got, a promise was made by a President, and here we are on the moon before the end of the decade.
DU (02:15:50):
I think I remember being deliberately unimpressed by that.
SM (02:15:55):
Right?
DU (02:15:59):
I thought it was literally out of this world, other worldly. And it defected or deflected from rather than helped address things that needed to be addressed in this world.
SM (02:16:15):
Oh, okay.
DU (02:16:15):
And I, to the best of my ability, ignored it for those reasons. It was impossible to ignore it entirely. And it was an astonishing thing, but I thought it was irrelevant at best, and damaging at worst.
SM (02:16:35):
Considering that it was on a stage in Arizona too, was hard to−
DU (02:16:38):
Yes.
SM (02:16:41):
Some people tried to say that.
DU (02:16:42):
Yes. And listen, do not get me wrong about Rubin and Hoffman. And I thought some of the things they did, like making the stock brokers go crazy by tossing dollar bills off the balcony at the stock exchange.
SM (02:16:56):
Yep. That was Abbie.
DU (02:17:00):
Yeah, that was wonderful. Some of the stuff they did was.
SM (02:17:07):
Yeah, and Abbie's friends told me the differences that those two guys had. And they had friction from the get go. And Jerry was not, I cannot− He has passed away. All you have to do is go on the web, and on YouTube, and see every interview of Abbie Hoffman, and then you see the interviews of Jerry Rubin, and you see what a jerk Jerry Rubin is, and what a nice person Abbie is. So, you might have got him on a bad day. But I have only got three more questions here. The generation gap, did you have a generation gap issue with your family and parents? When you went off to college?
DU (02:17:55):
I do not, it was− Nobody in my family had ever done anything like that before. Neither of my parents were college graduates.
SM (02:18:02):
And please speak up again.
DU (02:18:06):
Neither of my parents were college grads. They graduated into the Depression and had to work. I do not know where, it was more than an obsession of mine to go off to get the most deeply teacher education I could, in the most demanding place I could get into or came from, but I had it. That was the generation, there was a gap of interest and ambition between me and the family and my surroundings. It was not generational. It was beyond that.
SM (02:19:03):
So were your parents against the war in Vietnam?
DU (02:19:06):
Yes, actually.
SM (02:19:07):
Okay.
DU (02:19:08):
Actually, before most any other adults that I knew, but I did not know that until after I had already launched a state of events about that. They were way out in the West. After I went to college, I had no regular connection with my family or this great part of my life.
SM (02:19:35):
Well you remember there was that Life Magazine that had that young man on the cover with sun and one eye shade, and the other eye shade being the father's pointing fingers at each other. So, there was a strong generation gap between the World War II and the Boomers over a lot of the issues, lifestyle, politics, but− Huh?
DU (02:19:59):
That did not happen for me, but it was mostly-
PART 4 OF 5 ENDS [02:20:04]
DU (02:20:03):
− for me but it was mostly a function of the distance and separation rather than [inaudible 02:20:14].
SM (02:20:17):
You did not see them at Harvard and Columbia with your peers?
DU (02:20:24):
Yes, I saw it. Yeah, but I did not relate to it. I did not have to deal with that intimately, like many of them did.
SM (02:20:42):
In a book called the Wounded Generation, there was a symposium in 1980 with some of the top Vietnam veterans from Phil Caputo and Jim Webb, Bobby Muller, a couple other well-known names. In that conversation, one of them mentioned that he felt that the generation gap was− Yes, there was a gap between parents and students, but the real gap was between those who went to war and those who did not within the generation. He was very critical of the generation and for those who say that the (19)60s generation was a generation that served, that is, i.e., went to the Peace Corps, Vista, did all kinds of things, served their nation in a time of war, he said it is anything but a service generation because when you are called to go to war, you go. It is like your parents did in World War II. Did you sense there was a generation gap within the generation between those who went to Vietnam and those who did not?
DU (02:21:51):
I have an older brother who was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam. From the first time I went out there and I was there handing out leaflets against the war [inaudible 02:22:08] 10 years later, being chased down the streets of DC with teargas and mounted police. I was thinking I got to do what I can, as little and as ineffective as it may be, to try to bring this war to an end so my brother can get out of it alive. Even though, he was not [inaudible 02:22:37].
SM (02:22:36):
When you had family get togethers, say, in the late (19)60s and (19)70s, after the− Well, after the war was over, did you and your brother have issues with each other? Because he went to war, and you did not.
DU (02:22:59):
He just would not speak of what happened and what he did there. He would not talk about it. [inaudible 02:23:08] but the Pentagon Papers had a big impact on him. When that book came out, when they appeared in book form, he bought it and read it cover to cover. Even though, he was not the most scholarly man. He was not pleased at what he found there.
SM (02:23:40):
Wow.
DU (02:23:41):
[inaudible 02:23:41] and he realized he had been deceived.
SM (02:23:48):
Wow.
DU (02:23:49):
He realized that he was lured into what he thought was patriotic duty under false pretenses. He also realized his little brother was right.
SM (02:23:59):
Wow. Did he ever talk to you personally on that?
DU (02:24:03):
Only obliquely [inaudible 02:24:07].
SM (02:24:08):
Are you close to your brother?
DU (02:24:10):
Not particularly but [inaudible 02:24:17] our lives have gone on different paths [inaudible 02:24:21]. He just would not talk about his service. [inaudible 02:24:28] you were right after all. Some remark he made. We both knew that was so.
SM (02:24:44):
Yeah.
DU (02:24:47):
At some point, [inaudible 02:24:49] save the country and save the world from what I was sure was World War Three [inaudible 02:24:58] but also trying to save him.
SM (02:25:03):
I mentioned all those movements that evolved from the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement because the women's movement evolved in many respects because a lot of the sexism that took place in those two prior movements and women became− They had important− They did have important roles in the anti-war and civil rights movements but sexism was definitely there, and so the women's movement came about and, of course, the gay and lesbian movement in (19)69 at Stonewall. You had the Earth Day, the environmental movement in 1970, the Chicano movement, Cesar Chavez who worked closely with Bobby Kennedy and then, of course, you had the Native American movement that was going on in its heyday in the late (19)60s and (19)70s. It seemed like they were very strong movements. When there was an anti-war protest, it seemed like they were all there. Now as time goes by, it seems like whenever there is a movement, the movement is like− The women's movement is only women there. There is no anti-war groups. If there is a gay and lesbian protest, it is only them. It seems like they have become so special interest and so− They are not united anymore. At one time, they were united and now they all seem divided in their own little spheres. Am I correct in sensing this?
DU (02:26:33):
Yeah. I mentioned to you before that in those years, those movements all were− They were kindred. [inaudible 02:26:40] they grew out of and overlapped and nourished each other. If you moved from one of those realms, either in activity or geography, you would run into many of the same people. That is no longer true. You are right.
SM (02:27:11):
Even the conservative critics of those movements say they have become nothing but special interest. In other words, they only care about them. That is a very strong conservative, neoconservative criticism that all these movements, including civil rights, they are all special interest groups now and they have gone into the universities, as Phyllis Schlafly said, the universities today are run by people who were the protestors of the war. She says radicals have now taken over the universities.
DU (02:27:51):
I do not see that. I do not have daily contact of the inners of universities but what I do, I do not see that.
SM (02:28:01):
I think she sees− She saw that the women's studies, gay and lesbian studies, Asian American studies, Native American, African American studies, environmental, they are all run by liberal left people with their own agendas.
DU (02:28:19):
If you are talking about people with an identity politic outlook, trying to push their little plan forward, academically or otherwise, there is some truth in that but that is not the same as a liberal or a radical movement on campus.
SM (02:28:38):
Right.
DU (02:28:40):
Identity politic does not challenge or upset [inaudible 02:28:43] as I can tell. The imperial impulse that exists in the Vietnam War and is still as strong as ever and universities still are given more intellectual and other support to that imperial impulse as they did in the (19)60s and whatever radical counter there is to that is feeble on the campus. [inaudible 02:29:22] poor people's movement that Martin Luther King was trying to launch [inaudible 02:29:34] to the Civil Rights Movement, when he was assassinated [inaudible 02:29:41] as a result and the consequence of that poor people's movement failure are visible around you on the streets every day, of every American city, and universities are not addressing that. [inaudible 02:30:00] left behind by the failure of that movement are not prominent or influential [inaudible 02:30:05] people are talking about [inaudible 02:30:10] of the only thing they mean is some kind of identity politics and attraction in the universities, these people like Phyllis Schlafly do not like because they want to maintain a myth of the old unitary American identity and for that reason, they do not like it but other than that−
SM (02:30:39):
Would you agree, though− Again, you refer to this in the community as opposed to on the university campuses but I have been on university campuses for 30 years, and what happened with a professor being fired− I mention because he was involved in a protest or a speaker not being allowed to come to a college campus in the (19)60s for fear that money would not be given to the university because of a political point of view, that it has gotten to the other− It is really extreme today that because monies are tight on university campuses and the fact is that it is all about scholarships, it is all about fundraising, that they got to be very careful about who they invite to a university campus and if there is somebody that is controversial, it could threaten the bottom line and so they are really into that. The whole idea that Mario Savio talked about, about the world of ideas, which is what the university is about, is really today still about the bottom line and ideas play a secondary role.
DU (02:31:56):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:56):
Do you agree with that?
DU (02:31:57):
Yes. Yes. A few years ago, I was with all these people who had gone to bring a Palestinian speaker to the city and to campus venues. Among those promoting this were some Jewish groups advocating on behalf of Palestinian rights and [inaudible 02:32:28] moderate and polite way and that caused [inaudible 02:32:34] and on the state university campus here for exactly the reason you just said.
SM (02:32:38):
Yeah, it is interesting.
DU (02:32:41):
[inaudible 02:32:41] they might withhold who did not like any [inaudible 02:32:50] presentation [inaudible 02:32:56] be known that if this happened, financial consequences would follow.
SM (02:33:03):
Yeah. That is interesting. We did a conference my last semester that I organized with a couple of faculty members and students called Islam In America. We were packed every session, the whole theater was packed for 10 straight sessions from morning until about 10 o'clock, 10:30 at night, and I never saw so much criticism in my life of a successful event and it was all about educating about what it means to be in the religion of Islam. It had nothing to do with being anti-Israel. Oh my God. Everybody on the committee was looked at, studied, ridiculed, all the speakers, all the panelists were all ridiculed. I mean, people that I worked with− That is one of the reasons that I love the university. People I worked with who had never came to things, they were all in the audience and they were just there to try and see if anything negative happened. Nothing negative happened except people were upset that− They thought that we were promoting as opposed to educating. I only got two more and then we are done, because I know you have gone over, and I really appreciate it. Could you list some of the heavyweights in the lives of Boomers over the past 64 years? List the people who stood out− Actually, in your view, people that stood out in the following areas since 1946 that you feel had an influence on the Boomer generation. The first category is TV/radio personalities.
DU (02:34:43):
TV/radio personalities?
SM (02:34:45):
Yes. It could be news men, it could be talk show hosts, it could be anything.
DU (02:34:57):
Edward R. Murrow.
SM (02:34:59):
Okay.
DU (02:35:00):
Are you asking about people who have influenced me or who I think have influenced [inaudible 02:35:08].
SM (02:35:08):
Yeah. People that you think − When you look at the last, what is now 64 years since Boomers were born, because they are now reaching 64 this year, people that you feel, you personally, who has lived the same time that they have lived, and you are not very much older, I mean, you are a year or two older, so you are really one of them and I have learned that, that people from (19)40 on, to me, are really Boomers in their mentality, in the way they live their lives, and everything. You know, TV personalities that you felt were major in their lives. You have said Edward R. Murrow.
DU (02:35:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
SM (02:35:51):
Anybody else?
DU (02:35:54):
I do not know. I never paid much attention to TV.
SM (02:35:59):
Okay. How about writers?
DU (02:36:03):
I mentioned [inaudible 02:36:06]. I was an early devote of Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings. A buddy in college [inaudible 02:36:21] and as a fable of perseverance in the face of difficulties, even [inaudible 02:36:41].
SM (02:36:52):
Who's the person?
DU (02:36:55):
Tolkien, the Lord of the Rings.
SM (02:36:57):
Oh, the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien. Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. Any others before we go− The next section is politicians.
DU (02:37:07):
Yeah. Lately, I have been reading and rereading Given.
SM (02:37:16):
Edward Given?
DU (02:37:17):
The Decline and the Fall of the Roman−
SM (02:37:18):
Yeah. We had to read that when I was a history major.
DU (02:37:22):
Yeah. It seemed pertinent.
SM (02:37:31):
How about politicians? There were a lot of them.
DU (02:37:31):
Politicians? I worked for Senator Frank Church of Idaho.
SM (02:37:45):
You are lucky. He was a great person.
DU (02:37:47):
Yeah. I mean, I knew him− When I was a cheeky teen, I just walked into his office, in the federal building in Boise one day when I knew he was there, and the Congress was in session. I introduced myself. I said, "You are my senator. I want to get to know you." He was sitting there by himself. He invited me home and I went and had dinner with him.
SM (02:38:16):
Oh my gosh. What an experience.
DU (02:38:16):
Yeah. You could do that in a small town like that. I kept up with him after that and I worked in his Washington office. [inaudible 02:38:30] one summer. I was working in Senator Church's office.
SM (02:38:37):
Oh, wow.
DU (02:38:38):
Did that for two summers.
SM (02:38:43):
Wow. He is historic because of the Church committee and, of course, his son Forrest passed away this past year. I interviewed him for the book.
DU (02:38:54):
Well, I knew Forrest also. Forrest was around the office the summers I was working. [inaudible 02:39:06] senator's wife and, of course, mother. She is still alive. [inaudible 02:39:16]. I was very impressed with Church in a rock star kind of way because he was young and a flashy senator and he hung out with the Kennedys and all that when I was an impressionable age, and I claimed [inaudible 02:39:40] but when I got to know him more politically, [inaudible 02:39:47] I was even more impressed with the caliber−
SM (02:39:58):
Yeah. He is in that−
DU (02:39:59):
[inaudible 02:39:59] Wayne Morris and a few others [inaudible 02:40:03].
SM (02:40:02):
Yeah. [Ernest] Gruening. Yeah. Wow.
DU (02:40:08):
Morris, Gruening, Church, they were [inaudible 02:40:10] and when he ran for president in (19)76, I spent the summer volunteer working on his campaign.
SM (02:40:19):
Wow.
DU (02:40:19):
In the DC office [inaudible 02:40:21] Rhode Island and Ohio.
SM (02:40:28):
Yeah. What an experience, because I consider him a statesman. You know? Nelson was another one from that period who went against the war and, of course, Senator Church and Senator Nelson and Senator McGovern and Senator McCarthy were all ousted in 1980, also Birch Bayh in the anti-war, being against people who were in the anti-war likes. It is amazing. Anybody in the civil rights, women's movement, environmental movement stand out in your opinion? That you feel were very influential.
DU (02:41:10):
Well, because of what Martin Luther King did, the direction of my life changed, I would not be talking to you from Alabama− Civil rights came out of Alabama.
SM (02:41:24):
Right. I have got to get down there some time to see where the Montgomery bus boycott took place. How about any of the TV shows that you think were impactful? You said you did not watch TV very much.
DU (02:41:44):
Hardly.
SM (02:41:46):
How about newspaper journalists?
DU (02:41:54):
I loved Russell Baker.
SM (02:41:56):
Okay.
DU (02:41:58):
[inaudible 02:41:58] New York Times, because he was irreverent and offbeat and quietly radical.
SM (02:42:18):
Any magazines that stand out?
DU (02:42:19):
Not particularly, and I have written a few things for the Nation, so I guess I should say them.
SM (02:42:31):
How about the activists that you really looked up to?
DU (02:42:42):
[inaudible 02:42:42]. It was mostly the folks out in the trenches.
SM (02:42:53):
Not so much the big names.
DU (02:42:56):
Almost anonymous [inaudible 02:43:00] be there when you needed somebody there.
SM (02:43:06):
Right. Any scholars?
DU (02:43:25):
I paid attention to what [inaudible 02:43:27].
SM (02:43:28):
Who?
DU (02:43:30):
[inaudible 02:43:30].
SM (02:43:31):
Okay. I interviewed him for my book. I do not know if anybody in the veteran community you were linked to in any way but any veterans you admired?
DU (02:43:53):
[inaudible 02:43:53] Veterans for Peace− I consider myself a veteran of the Vietnam War, even though, I was never military. [inaudible 02:44:10] have a military−
SM (02:44:15):
You have a what?
DU (02:44:15):
[inaudible 02:44:15] military dog tag [inaudible 02:44:17] be a veteran.
SM (02:44:19):
Right. Yeah.
DU (02:44:23):
Some of those organizations, I admire.
SM (02:44:29):
You believe that those that were involved in the anti-war movement, like those who served in Vietnam were part of the Vietnam− They are Vietnam vets?
DU (02:44:40):
Yes.
SM (02:44:42):
My last question here is when the best history books are written, they are often written 50 years after an event or a period. You know, a couple years back, the best books on World War II were being written 50 years after the war. My question is basically when the last Boomer has passed away, many years from now, and there is no one around that will have experienced what it was like to live when we lived, what do you think historians, sociologists, writers are going to say about the generation that grew up after World War II or around World War II and the influence they had on America?
DU (02:45:29):
Well, the [inaudible 02:45:31] book.
SM (02:45:35):
Pardon? That would be nice.
DU (02:45:36):
Yeah. [inaudible 02:45:38] book and then you will know.
SM (02:45:41):
Yeah, because what is interesting, David, is that I want people to know the people for who they are, what they stand for, and to respect them all, because how one is raised, reared, and their life experiences are different. To understand the time, I truly believe that oral history right now is the best way to do it and so I got a long way to go but I am doing this because I have a drive within me t−
DU (02:46:15):
I can tell.
SM (02:46:16):
Yeah. It is like my work at the university. I did over 450 programs at Westchester University. I know a lot of people and those programs are not happening anymore. They are not doing any lectures, forums, debates and seminars. I am getting students emailing me saying the university is not the same anymore and it is because the finances are tough and all they want to do is party and program. There is some good quality things that faculty are doing but I did not go into higher education to just simply retire and not do anything more. My whole life is devoted to students and will continue to be so. Are there any questions that you expected me to ask you that I did not ask?
DU (02:47:13):
Well, I tried not to think about what you might ask me, because I did not want to have canned answers. I wanted [inaudible 02:47:25] the first thing that occurred to me. I did not have any expectations about what you might ask [inaudible 02:47:39] conversations are what I supposed it would be, but I had not formulated anything specific.
SM (02:47:49):
One thing is I do not know if you have a couple pictures of yourself, but I am going to need a couple pictures. I do not know if you have any recent pictures or even pictures, somebody is sending me a picture from− Caroline Cassidy is going to send me a picture of her when she was− 1970. Then a picture of her. She lives way up in Oregon, and I cannot get to Oregon. I have gone and interviewed everybody in person who lived in New York, Washington, Baltimore, I have gone up to Boston three times, going up to San Francisco, in a couple weeks just to take pictures of 14 people that I interviewed. I am not spending any time with them because I have already interviewed them but trying to coordinate that. I am going on vacation, and I am going to do it all in two days, drive around San Francisco, going from place to place, taking pictures of all these people. I have two interviews out there too. I am going to need your pictures. I am going to keep you updated because I am going to be hibernating at the end of October. My interviews end at the end of October. I have one in November and that is it. I am not doing anymore.
DU (02:49:04):
You want before and after pictures?
SM (02:49:06):
It can be before and after. It can be two pictures. It can be a current one. Whichever. You can mail it to me through the mail or on the computer. I prefer the mail because somebody sent me a computer picture from California that was terrible. I am taking a picture of him in person. Whatever. There is no rush, but I just wanted to let you know.
DU (02:49:28):
What is the mailing address?
SM (02:49:31):
My mailing address is 3323 Valley, V-A-L-L-E-Y, Drive in West Chester, and that is two words, Pennsylvania, 19382. You have my name.
DU (02:49:49):
19382?
SM (02:49:52):
Yeah. I will keep you updated. Between November 1st and probably June, I will be transcribing them all myself. Someone says, "You have got a lot of work to do." I said, "Yup. I got the equipment here." I have already done 12. It is not that bad. I have been advised not to let anybody else do them, because I have got two authors that had nothing but problems when they were transcribed by others. When I am transcribing them, it brings back all the memories. They are going to be divided into seven sections with the pictures and then what I call magic moments, that will be under each interview that I pick as magic moments. There were several that you gave me today that were unbelievable. Then the rest of it will be the interview and you will eventually see the transcript and so the next seven months, I am going to be transcribing. I have one university press that wants to do it, but I have not tried to go after any other presses, so I have made no commitments.
DU (02:50:57):
You got one for sure?
SM (02:51:01):
Yeah. One for sure, without even−I did not even send them a proposal. I talked to them at a conference. I was at a higher ed conference this summer. They knew that all the people that I had interviewed and, anyways, long story. I have not approached any major book companies and I am going to send 12 transcripts, my introduction, and then go from there.
DU (02:51:35):
Okay. [inaudible 02:51:38] picture from me. [inaudible 02:51:48].
SM (02:51:49):
Yeah. You can mail them to me− I want to get most of them before the holidays, because I want to be able to get the pictures and, so if you can think of trying to get those two to me before Christmas, that would be great.
DU (02:52:05):
Yeah. [inaudible 02:52:06] wrote to myself with your address. [inaudible 02:52:11]. If you do not get the pictures [inaudible 02:52:16].
SM (02:52:16):
Yeah. I will.
DU (02:52:16):
[inaudible 02:52:16]. Okay?
SM (02:52:16):
Yeah.
DU (02:52:17):
You have my permission [inaudible 02:52:18].
SM (02:52:17):
Okay.
DU (02:52:18):
If you come across any [inaudible 02:52:18] transcript and you want to [inaudible 02:52:33].
SM (02:52:35):
Will do.
DU (02:52:35):
Okay?
SM (02:52:36):
Yup. I am going to contact that person too that you mentioned and if there is any other people that you feel would be good people to interview, let me know.
DU (02:52:45):
Great.
SM (02:52:47):
David, you have a great day.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with David Underhill
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Underhill, David ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Journalists; Authors, American--20th century; Political activists--United States; Underhill, David--Interviews
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<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"David Underhill is a journalist, writer and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States, and was schooled mainly in eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the Harvard Crimson. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the Southern Courier, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,6710886],"15":"Arial"}">David Underhill is a journalist, writer, and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States and was schooled mainly in the eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the <em>Harvard Crimson</em>. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the <em>Southern Courier</em>, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. </span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-09-27
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.163a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.163b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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172:51
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/18a92e0007c3c534daeb7d555f3582e9.mp3
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Audio interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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Interviewee
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Paul Krassner
Date of Interview
2010-03-10
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Sound
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179:00
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor and publisher of the the Realist magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture. He studied Journalism at Baruch College. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor, and publisher of the <em>Realist</em> magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography <em>Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture</em>. He studied Journalism at Baruch College. </span>
Keywords
<span>1968 Democratic Convention; Abbie Hoffman; Abe Peck; AIM; Allen Ginsberg; Anita Hoffman; Arthur Chickering; Avery Corman; Barry Freed; Bayard Rustin; Black Panther Party; Black Power Movement; Bob Fass; Bobby Kennedy; Burt Caen; City College of New York; Chicano movement; CIA; Clark Kerr; Community Friends; Conspiracy; Dan White trial; Daniel Ellsberg; Dave Bellinger; David Horowitz; Dr. Albert Ellis; Dr. Rosalind Petchesky; Ed Sanders; Edmund Muskie; Eisenhower; Ernie Kovacs; FBI; Festival of Life; George Carlin; George Lincoln Rockwell; George McGovern; George Will; Harry Reasoner; Hippies; House of American Activities Committee; J. Edgar Hoover; Jack Kerouac; Jeff Miller; Jerry Rubin; John Carlos; John Kennedy; John McCain; John Sinclair; Jonah Raskin; Judy Gumbo; Ken Kesey; Kent State; Kim Phuc; Kurt Vonnegut; Lenny Bruce; Levitate the Pentagon; Lyle Stuart; Mae Brussell; Mark Rudd; Martin Luther King Jr.; Mary Vecchio; Merry Pranksters; Miri Savio; Mk-Ultra ; My Lai massacre; Napalm; Neal Cassidy; Ned Lamont; Newseum; Newt Gingrich; Norman Mailer; Osama Bin Laden; Patty Hearst; Peter Max; Phil Ochs; Proletarian; Rabbi Hesche ; Ram Daas; Rex Weine ; Richard Nixon; Robert Scheer; Robin Morgan; Ronnie Davis; SDS; Stewart Brand; Stu Albert; Super Joe ; Tet Offensive; The Independent; The Realis ; Timothy Leary; Tom Hayden; Truthdig; Twinkie Defense; U2; Vietcong; Vietnam; Vietnamese; </span><span>Wall Street Dollar Bill event; Walter Cronkite; Watergate; WBE; Weatherman; Women’s Movement; Wounded Knee; Yippies; Young Lords; Zippies.</span>
Blacks and Jews; Anti-Semitism and anti-blackness; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Nineteen sixties Generation Era; George McGovern; Drugs; Yippie Movement; Divorce Rate; Hippie; Yippie.
Subject LCSH
Authors, American--20th century;Journalists; Comedians; Publishers; Realist (New York, N.Y.); Krassner, Paul--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Paul Krassner
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers
Date of interview: 10 March 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:03
SM: Testing 123 ̶
00:07
PK: Exists and so um, I look back and I am very pleased. You know, I am disappointed in the sense that all the stuff that I have wanted to accomplish I have not or not yet and, and you know most people know you for what You have done and you know yourself somehow for what you still want to do.
00:34
SM: You have done so much what do you still want to do?
00:37
PK: Well, you know, I am going to be seventy-eight in a few days.
00:43
SM: Well, congratulations, happy birthday!
00:46
PK: And I have and so I am working on my first novel. And as a friend, Avery Corman, told me, he wrote Oh, God! and Kramer Versus Kramer. He wrote his very first article in The Realist, we became friends. And I said to him, boy, it is really hard, writing fiction, you have to have to make stuff up. And he said, "Come on Paul, you have been making up stuff all your life." And I said, "Yeah, but that was journalism." So it is a different kind of challenge. You know, I could just describe, I did not know, I could describe Abbie Hoffman by just describing what I already knew. And I want to try to avoid ever describing anybody at having chiseled features, which is one of the description clichés, I cannot help but notice.
01:48
SM: One of the things that I think you are proud of this is what the FBI said of you, you know what I am saying here, and that is what is the inspiration for the title of your book. The FBI said, "To classify Krassner as a social rebel is far too few he is a nut, a raving unconfined nut." Are you very proud? You are pretty proud of that aren't you?
02:11
PK: I guess, sort of like people were proud of being on, like Daniel Ellsberg, said he was proud to be on the enemies list. You know, I mean, my mother was not happy about that. But it was so absurd but also significant because they were trying to, you know, this was written on a poison pen letter so as if it came from a college student complaining about the articles that Life Magazine had published about. And so that was the context of it. But you know, and they were doing that, you know, character assassination, which did not bother me so much except that is not what taxpayer money goes to do. And as you can could read in my autobiography, it escalated the next year, character assassination to what was virtually a literal assassination. When the FBI put out a leaflet with, it had a huge swastika on it. It had the four black faces. It had photographs of four people. One was Mark Rudd, who was the head of the SDS, Students for a Democratic Society. Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, cofounders of the yippies, the Youth International Party as was I in the fourth corner there. And the headline was Lampshade! Lampshade! Lampshade! And it was essentially something in their files which, and the file was trying to create rifts between Blacks and Jews. This was the FBI's wonderful work behind the scenes. And in the copy below that headline, they talked about how Jews have been oppressing Negros, for so long but we know what happened years ago so we must, these leaders must be eliminated. And then they have to get permission. This is all from my FBI files. This was Washington, and they had to get permission from the New York office. These were J. Edgar Hoover's DuPont assistants who approved it. In their approval of it gave instructions to the New York office, make sure that, and I am paraphrasing but the essence of it, make sure that these pamphlets or leaflets are not traceable to the Bureau. But how they described it the word they used was that these leaflets facetiously suggesting the elimination. And so, you know, it was as if some militant black militant black picked up this flyer in Florida he now he might have been a little bit off kilter. But if he had assassinated one of us the FBI defense would be, we said it was facetious. So, so anyway, so even though I got a book title out of it, the "Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut" but you know, it was it was really proletarian that was what they were doing.
06:16
SM: I would say and you know that we know the workings of J. Edgar Hoover but and when they ask you this, when you looked at the relationship between Jewish Americans and African Americans over the years in the (19)50s, the (19)40s, the (19)50s and into the (19)60s, it was one of the strongest relationships ever in American history. Because they understood, each group understood the rights and you have to fight for rights and there is prejudice against various groups based on your religion and ethnic background. Do you believe there was some sort of jealousy there too? That even though you were looked upon the four of you as maybe radicals in their eyes, there was this anti-Semitism too that was there and maybe anti-black, that to these two groups working together no matter where they were found have to be divided.
07:14
PK: That is right exactly right, divide and conquer. You know anybody who, who would question authority. My daughter once said she when she was growing up, she said, I really thought my Dad and his friends were paranoid. But as I grew up, I began to understand that there was a police state involved. And so you know, a lot of the stuff that is coming out now are just continuations of what, because of technology, you know, has turned you know, say with cell phones or video cameras. What was once used for porn and entertainment is now used as evidence. So, the scandals are coming out now. You know as Ken Kesey once said to me, you know the spirit of truth. And it is that classic metaphor of there being grass pushing its way through the cement blocks.
08:38
SM: It is amazing because when you think of the strongest relationship in the anti-war movement, it was the relationship between a Black man and a Jewish man. And that was Rabbi Heschel and Martin Luther King Jr. They were the united arm and arm and they were both united in their effort to end war in Vietnam. And actually they were both criticized within their religious communities. They were they were visionaries. One of the early questions I asked of all of our guests, or all the interviewees.
09:08
PK: I like that, guests! Hah!
09:11
SM: Well, interviewees. I actually sent that I actually said that in an office once down in New York City, and she said, I am your guest, you are not my guest, and that was because I was in her office done at NYU. But the question that I am asking is, George Will oftentimes whenever he gets a chance, he'll take shots at the (19)60s generation or that era, as the reason for a lot of the problems we have in our society and you can go to any book that he has written and he'll have an essay, when Newt Gingrich came into power in (19)94, he made some very strong comments against that era around the time that George McGovern was running for president and that particular period, kind of criticizing that time and that Generation. And then when you read your book and your books, some of the quotes from John McCain when he talks about Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee, in his comments on drugs, and, and also David Horowitz and I saw this in where he claims that, and you know, this is from an article that was in the web said that "Although he likes Krassner personally, he believes that he in the yippies must shoulder much of the blame for the crisis of AIDS and drug addiction. It was one of it was one long incitement against America against all the guidelines and morals and mores and help people make it through life." He said, "The yippie movement, and I think the yippies in the end were a terribly destructive force." Now he is only talking about yippies here, but as George Will and Gingrich, they are talking about the generation.
10:53
PK: Oh, yeah.
10:54
SM: Just your thoughts on all these commentaries, that the drug culture that break up with the American family, the extensive divorce rate, a concept of all these "isms", the concept of the Welfare State all these things. Let us just blame it on the lack of respect for authority.
11:11
PK: Well, yeah, I think that (19)60s bashing is going to be in the Olympics in a few years. It is you know, it is scapegoating, in retrospect. And I have written a few a few things about it, as I see the pattern, and, and what sometimes it is not even conscious scapegoating is just sloppy journalism.
11:37
SM: Mm hmm.
11:38
PK: You know, it is kind of shorthand. An example of that was a linking of a New York politician Ned Lamont, the writer was saying that he was, that blinding him as a politician running for some office was, not the same as and, the two people he linked was Osama bin Laden or Abbie Hoffman and I thought well there you know, talk about strange bedfellows! And the line I used to differentiate between them was that Bin Laden a plane to fly into the Pentagon and Abbie, he only wanted to levitate it.
12:41
SM: Yes. Yeah. One of the questions I wanted to ask you and I have read a lot of in your biography, but could you talk a bit about your college days? Obviously, you were a child prodigy, you were on the stage of Carnegie Hall as a very young kid. And I understand from reading about your background, how you went in another direction. But were your college years in the (19)50s, did they have any kind of an influence on you?
13:15
PK: It just intensified my obsession of what I was going to do with my life. It was just so important because I saw people, a lot of people just unhappy or angry about their work, but you know that and yet they wanted to support their families. And so I really just so I was not happy in politics, did not know what I would major in and second semester I took a leave of absence. And went every day in the afternoon, I have afternoon job and I would go to a vocational library and read about different vocations. And then through a series of chain links, I ended up in my senior year in college working for The Independent of course, the paper run by Lyle Stuart.
14:28
SM: And the college? No, no, no. No, I mean the name of the college.
14:33
PK: Excuse me?
14:34
SM: I am just putting it in for the record where you went to school.
14:38
PK: Oh, oh! CCNY, City College of New York.
14:41
SM: Okay.
14:41
PK: And I started working for him, this was in my senior year. And I just, I realized I would rather work there than at the New York Times. I mean because it was an anti-censorship to paper in a long tradition from Thomas Paine to [unintelligible] and I was just thrilled to have, even though I was just at the start stuffing envelopes. And so it was, it was, I just felt so grateful to have landed in in that position. I ended up becoming the managing editor. In college, really my mind was wandering a lot. You know, I remember a couple of things, one was in Philosophy 101 the definition of philosophy was the rationalization of life. And, and the other was that some anthropologist said happiness is having had as little separation as possible between your work and your play and everything else is kind of a blur. I mean, I know I got through one course not having paid attention for the whole semester, but the night before the final exam, I studied everything that was in italics in the textbook. So that you know, it was not it was nothing that I... I was the assistant manager of the basketball team. I think I wanted that really, I was one of those jackets. A silk jacket, a sports jacket. So and I left college, I was already working there. I knew what I wanted. I did not want to have any job where I needed a degree, because to me that was false snobbery. I mean, I do not mean that, you know, somebody is going to medical school. But, but for me personally, I did not. And, and so, in my, I would pick, I needed one three credit course, to get my degree and I just walked out of the class one day. And it was liberating. Although, you know, it was incredible to my family. And, but, you know, I had to live my own life. It is that simple.
17:51
SM: Mm hmm. Well, it is interesting because some of the biggest moments the (19)60s are linked to you. At least anybody who cares about the (19)60s who grew up in the (19)60s or who grew up in that era. It is the how the term "yippie" became a term. And of course, we'll talk about the Twinkie Defense later on in the interview, but I have Jerry Rubin's book. I remember buying that book in 1971 when I was in grad school and reading it in the summertime and him saying in the book that the term "yippie" they were in a meeting someplace with a lot of people, they did not know what to name their group and so somebody in the background was yelling "yippie". And so that was how it became the group became "the yippies." Well, that is misinformation from do it? Because when you look at your book and read your background, that was a meeting that you and Abbie Hoffman had along with Abbie's wife.
18:52
PK: I have read I have read several different versions of that but you know, I was there as a friend as an activist, and as a journalist, so I made note of it. And as a journalist, I knew that you need a ̶ who, what, when, where and how.
19:18
SM: Right.
19:18
PK: And so I just had this brainstorm trying to, and this was on the afternoon of December 31st 1967. And it was at the apartment on the lower east side of Abbie and Anita Hoffman. And there were about maybe eight or nine more activist friends, there gathered, and, the essence of what we were talking about was going as a counter convention in the summer of (19)68, Chicago when the Democrats would have their convention. And it was the Vietnam War was bipartisan, but it just happened to be under the democrat's watch at that point. And as Abbie once said, we do not want to go to Miami in the off-season anyway. So I was trying to think of Bob Bass was one of the original yippies, he said that no, he said this later, I am getting ahead of myself. The San Francisco the "diggers" had a march through the streets, a funeral called "the death of hippies" because it had definitely become you know a media term and they wanted to call themselves "Free Americans," which was bizarre because when the hostages were released from Iran, the first thing when they went to in America was get a haircut and it would be silly for hippies, you know, to hear somebody yelling at them, you know, get a haircut, you "Free American" but it was an oxymoronic epithet. So I was thinking of a different, something that would rhyme with hippies seemed natural, and then I was trying to think of, of a an acronym that you know, would represent what the event was going to be for us, one of the original, the folk singer, Phil Ochs, had described the mood we wanted to bring to Chicago. He said a demonstration to turn you on, not turn you off.
22:34
SM: Yeah, it is a quote I have here. Yes.
22:38
PK: And so came up with "Youth" because it was a generational thing at that time, "international" because this kind of evolutionary jump in consciousness was around the globe and so in Paris in Mexico and Czechoslovakia, the same rebellion against repression was in process and so "international" was in the middle and then "P" for party which was perfect because of both like a political party and have a lot of fun party. Excuse me for one second.
23:22
SM: Yeah.
23:32
PK: I thought my wife came in. So, Let us see where was I? And so the initials for that would be "Y.I. and P" for the acronym and so out of that derived the "yippies" and so at our first press conference as a result of that, the Chicago papers had a headline: "Yipes, the Yippies are Coming" and so, you know, we could see that the myth developing. We would hear from, you had to open an office, we were hearing from groups on campuses, you know, who, who finally, had a name for what they represented. Because all I did was, was come up with a name, which was essentially a shout of joy. So I did not even make up the name. But just a name a phenomenon that already existed. And this came from that had originally been an adversarial relationship between the hippies and between the straight politicians, political activists, and so that the hippies thought that straight politicos were playing into the administrations chance by protesting against the war and the politicos, thought the hippies were being irresponsible because they were just sitting around in the park smoking pot but each one came to realize as it was a kind of cross fertilization of the stoned hippies and the straight politicos you know, seeing each other at maybe civil rights demonstrations or antiwar rallies and hippies began to see.. the straight politicos saw that the hippies, that they had a smoke-in at the park, that they were committing civil disobedience to protest against an unjust law and the hippies could see in turn, they could see a linear connection ultimately from putting someone behind bars for smoking weed and they could see that that connection to dropping Napalm.
26:50
SM: Yes.
26:50
PK: On kids on the other side of the world. And the connection was, it was the ultimate extension of the dehumanization, of punishment without crime. And o in each whether it whether it was young people imprisoned for giving themselves harmless pleasure and people turning the other one other way, not seeing the terrible injustices and expanded ultimately to people turning away from the war in Vietnam, you know and being gung ho about it.
27:47
SM: That is a beautiful description, I read a part of like that in the book too but this linear connection is very important to hear because even when you look at the 1968 convention in Chicago, correct me if I am wrong, the yippies and people who were around that group looked upon it as the convention of death. Because we were killing Vietnamese and we historically had not talked about the people we were killing. We are thinking about the people that are losing lives from our nation, which is equally important, our troops, but certainly not a whole lot about the Vietnamese people themselves and you thought about it. The group is, as I have got here "The Festival of Life" so you are making a connection even there, you know, changing the name for Youth International Party and now going to the convention for challenging the convention of death. Is that correct?
28:48
PK: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And we were going to do it, not just music instead of speeches, but what happened in Woodstock the following year was our original vision and we thought we would have a booths around the perimeter with, you know, information on the draft and information on the drug and so it was, so it really was a it really captured the attention of people who, you know, we would pull stunts, like throwing money off the balcony onto the floor of the factory today.
29:52
SM: Mm hmm.
29:54
PK: But then there would be a press conference outside and we would talk about the relationship between Wall Street and the war.
30:09
SM: Yeah, yeah, a couple of the antics that people define them as antics. Levitating the Pentagon in (19)67. The Wall Street where the dollar bills were thrown out. Jerry Rubin had one you may remember it and do it where he went into the bank. Do you remember that scene?
30:29
PK: He went into the bank, and what?
30:33
SM: He went into the bank, and he asked if he could use the restroom. And they said, get out of here, we do not like your types in the bank. And he said, I going to go to the bathroom. And they said, no, you got to leave. And he says, if you do not let me go in the bathroom, I will go right on the floor. And he did.
30:54
PK: If I knew about that, I forgot it.
30:56
SM: Yeah, it was and it was do it. It was because it was linked to his book, "Do It." So I am remembering things from back when I read this book a long time ago, but it is kind of a; you guys had a very a lot of energy I remember. You have a lot of energy and in some respects, you determined. Why do you feel that we are not talking to the Newt Gingrich's in the Mike Huckabees, and John McCain's of the world but what do you think some of the liberals have today I have interviewed some who, when I go at the end of the interview, and I mentioned Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin and the hippies, and they just saw that was nothing. And these are liberals that were in either, they might have been an SDS, the Women's Movement and the Black Power Movement. I am not talking about
31:47
PK: Well, you know, we got a lot of attention that they did not. So there was a resentment out of the new left. You know we were having fun and the new left was kind of serious. I mean we were serious too, but humor was our vehicle.
32:14
SM: Paul, if I were to ask you to give them a quick definition of the definition of a hippie the definition of a yippie and then the definition of a zippy, how would how would they differ?
32:30
PK: A hippie and a yippie and a what?
32:32
SM: A Zippy.
32:33
PK: Okay.
32:35
SM: And please speak up too.
32:37
PK: Okay. A hippie and the name came from San Francisco Chronicle columnist Burt Caen and (C.A.E.N) and from, I guess hipster or hip itself and essentially, it was to describe young people who, especially males, who were letting the hair grow longer and wearing colorful clothes and smoking marijuana and they were stead fullness and sense of community and sex, drugs and music was their Holy Trinity, but and at the core of this psychedelic revolution was a spiritual revolution. As Lenny Bruce said, people were leaving the church going back to God.
33:58
SM: [Laughs]
33:58
PK: But I was thinking of that as we speak because of that is what is happening with the Catholic Church now.
34:05
SM: Oh, I know.
34:09
PK: So let us see, where was I? Oh, ok so a yippie was, oh now something comes something I was going to say before, Bob Fass who had a nightly show, all night show on WBAI radio in New York and his description was a yippie is a hippie whose been beat on the head with a cop's billy club and I would say a yippie was a someone who saw without even articulating, someone who knew that the right to smoke marijuana was related to the right to protest against a war, or it was just a sense of freedom and in terms of LSD, it was one of the drug of choice at the time. It was originally started by the CIA in the hope of an exploited I should say not distorted in the hope that it could be used as a drug of control. And the methodology, especially with people, which is what they did with their Mk-Ultra experiment, on unsuspecting volunteers. There was a process of de-programming and then reprogramming them in whatever way they wish. And what happened in the (19)60s was that the young people who experimented with LSD, and for the most part, the experiment was a success, one vehicle of connecting one conscious with one's unconscious, or subconscious and so they were able to program themselves to deprogram themselves from mainstream culture, which has so many inhumane aspects to it and reprogram themselves, not only reprogram themselves to a more humane value system, but to practice it it. To practice the alternative. Whether it was forming communes, or playing music or any of the arts it was it was a kind of utopian vision, but it was not just a fantasy. Which is why I am still doing research into the government had, what level the government had with wanting to neutralize that movement because think tanks saw how it affected the economy. And so I am supposed to meet up the former FBI agent who was in what they called the hippie squad, and where they among have other things they learned how to roll a joint. The better to infiltrate a commune. So, okay, so hippie, yippie, zippie.
34:12
SM: Yippie? Zippies were the latter group.
38:44
PK: Okay, so in 1972 when at the republican convention in Miami, I think both conventions were held there that year. And there were some people and I was in California I was not there at that time. And getting out an issue of The Realist which by the late queen of conspiracy researchers Mae Brussell (M.A.E B.R.U.S.S.E.L.L) and publishing an article, a front page article by her on the relationship, all of the implications of and the conspiracy behind the Watergate break in. And this was at a time when the President and the media was still saying it was just a caper or a third rate burglary. So you know, in my own function it was to stay there and get that out and not go to Miami. So there was some of the younger people from the Lower East Side mostly who they started calling out Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin's age difference. And they called themselves the Zippies. And, and they were, and it was, you know, and they would making bread while you know, while the yippies were trying to make friends with elderly people there, the zippies would kind of taunt them and it was a very tense atmosphere between them. The zippies later of course named themselves the yippies because obviously, you had a better brand.
41:19
SM: Would say that the, the issue with the zippies and the yippies was like, in some of the other, even in the civil rights movement where the Black Panther Party challenged Dr. King, Bayard Rustin, civil rights leaders that your time has passed, they were just basically telling Abbie and Jerry and the others your time has passed. Is that what they were trying to do?
41:43
PK: Oh, yeah, that that they were trying to say your time is passed but the other side of that coin was our time has come and so you know, they were creating dissension rather than cooperate.
42:02
SM: Yeah, one of the things that is when you look at the people that were in the yippies, they were, you know, you were in there. Jonah Raskin who I interviewed was in there. He has written some great books, and ones on Abbie. Obviously, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, Robin Morgan, on the biggest names in women's studies. You had John Sinclair, Stu Albert, who I am learning more about Ed Sanders and Judy Gumbo and others. These are major people. How did you ever link up? You know, like, what I am really trying to get at Paul. You are a person who graduates trying to figure out who are and what you are going to become. You become a comedian. You get to you have that particular what when was the first time you met these people and you knew they were your friends and you had similar ideas and you hung out together? When did all that begin?
43:02
PK: Well, I was living on the Lower East Side now known as the village. And other folks I knew, including Abbie Hoffman, including Bob Fass would have a weekly meeting with called the Community Friends because we were not going to be the community with the milk of mines and I do not know some, some rhetoric like that, but it was just a group of people who and I became friends with them in the process. And then especially, I became friends with Abbie and Anita Hoffman and, and they were just two blocks away from me and so you know, we had a lot of dinners together and movies and I think the moment that my friendship with Abbie was cemented was when Abbie, I am sorry, Lenny Bruce had died the previous year. And I told that Abbie that he was the first one who really made me laugh since Lenny died and Abbie said, oh, really, he was my God. And so you know, there was, that was the only sense in which I believe in an afterlife. The posthumous network.
44:58
SM: Let me switch my tape here.
45:04
PK: Okay, I got my lemonade.
45:09
SM: I hear you live in a very hot area. Is that true?
45:13
PK: Yeah, this is Desert Hot Springs and the weather sometimes you know is like one hundred and twenty degrees.
45:23
SM: No humidity though.
45:25
PK: But I will tell you I would I never used to like air conditioning but I grew to appreciate it.
45:34
SM: Yeah.
45:35
PK: And, and my wife Nancy and I had just moved from Venice Beach and right you know a block away from the ocean.
45:43
SM: Mm hmm.
45:43
PK: So going from the ocean to the desert was a real what was the word I want?
45:53
SM: Culture shock?
45:54
PK: Yes, it had a certain culture shock, yeah that is the word.
46:00
SM: It is amazing how we use that term a lot. Even in passing. Yeah, and we were talking about these personalities and you getting to know Abbie. Now, before we get back to these personalities that were in the yippies, Lenny Bruce has a little boy growing up in the (19)50s I knew all about Lenny Bruce. And then the only thing I can remember as a little boy was I think he was refused? Ed Sullivan would not allow him on his show because he could not predict what he would say or something? I remember hearing that. And that he was way ahead of his time that and here you are a person who was involved in editing his what his biography?
46:52
PK: Yes, I was the editor of his autobiography. It was not it was not ghostwritten but Playboy hired me as his editor.
47:03
SM: What is amazing is when I think of as a little boy again now in the (19)50s and the people that there is two people that come to mind to me that I wish I knew more about its Lenny Bruce and Ernie Kovacs because they both died young, they were both very talented and I think sometimes they were misunderstood. What was it about Lenny that he was so ahead of his time you were one of his closest friends and he kind of pushed you into being a comedian too. He was kind of a mentor or a role model for you. What was it about Lenny?
47:48
PK: Well, he saw through the bullshit and aimed for the truth and ultimately, he just was going to have the same freedom in nightclubs that he had in his living room. But he was his antenna, his antenna was always out. A lot of the comedians I have met George Carlin is certainly like this.
48:18
SM: Oh one of my favorites.
48:22
PK: His mind was always going and going and going, you know, it was just his nature. It was almost as if he had no control over it. So Lenny really just wanted to make people laugh. He was not trying to change them. He, you know, when I asked him about that, he would say, well, you know, maybe they get changed for twenty minutes and then they were home and they were into something else, you know, so he had no delusions about that. But he just wanted to communicate without compromise, which is what I wanted to do with The Realist. And in fact, when Newsweek did a story, they quoted Steve Allen, who was the first subscriber, they quoted him as saying The Realist was the periodical equivalent of Lenny Bruce. So the connection was there. With what each of us did was did so, you know when we got together it was not small talk, you know, you would start several steps ahead.
49:43
SM: Can you honestly say, Paul, that if it was not for Lenny Bruce, you would never have been able to produce the Realist?
49:54
PK: I think it is more [laughs]no, because I started in 1958 and I did not meet him until 1959. Okay, and Lenny would have many would have surrendered his talent with or without me. The only thing I helped inadvertently helped him get arrested was when he saw the use of language in The Realist when I interviewed somebody. The example specifically was the late Dr. Albert Ellis who had in our interview, he talked about the semantics of profanity and saying that if fucking was a good thing, then, if you want to say something nasty to somebody you should say "unfuck you." And the first time I met Lenny, I had an advanced copy of that issue which I gave to him and he looked at it. This was in his hotel room in the theater district at the time, we were in New York. And he and he was looking through it. And he saw that, that dialogue, and he said, do you get away with that? Of course at the time, most virtually all magazines were not would have dashes or asterisks instead of spelling out the word. And so and I said yeah, it talks about the Supreme Court's recent decision then that something was obscene if it had prurient appeal. It appealed the prurient interests and had no social positive, social redeeming social value that was the phrase. And Lenny would say: prurient? What does that mean? And he got out of the suitcase that was on the bed in his hotel room, a large, an unabridged dictionary, which he had carried with him where he had event ̶ He was a mono-didactic south pawed semanticist as was George Carlin the difference between them being that improvised a lot whereas George Carlin wrote down and memorized everything he did. But the point of view was extremely similar. So you know both in making fun of organized religion and political leaders and Lenny's arrests were ostensibly for obscenity but actually for having this powerful hysterical targets but you know there was a law against obscenity there was not a law against blasphemy. And so that was when Lenny had only used euphemism by spring before that and he started using the language that anyway, he was not trying to be a martyr and he would use the language not the way of so many comics do today we as an all-purpose, noun, adjective, adverb, verb, epithet, whatever.
54:06
SM: Mm hmm.
54:06
PK: And so I am not saying that is a bad thing except it is like sort of a reduction of vocabulary but it takes the edge off, you know the magic powers of four letters in certain combinations.
54:26
SM: Yeah, I remember reading; you admit to Tallulah Bankhead the actress. Something about the use of that term, a four-letter word and somebody used the term food.
54:40
PK: Oh, no, no, no, this was Norman Mailer. Okay. The first time I met him and he and in The Naked and the Dead, he had used the word a "fub", (F.U.B) as a euphemism.
54:55
SM: Oh, okay. That is it.
54:59
PK: And I asked him if it was true that Tallulah Bankhead said to him, oh, yes, you are the young man who doesn't know how to spell 'fuck' and his response was something like, oh, yes, then you are the actress who doesn't know how. That is the background of that.
55:32
SM: When you were, I have a question here about The Realist too. But when The Realist was getting started to keep it going, you needed to raise funds and that is what that poster came in 'fuck communism' was not that the uh, you sold them to raise some funds to keep the paper going?
55:52
PK: Oh, no, no. Well, the background of it was just it was just from gone with the art director of Mad and did a column called Modest Proposal and he wanted to give me a gift, this poster and he has the word "fuck," but he did not know what the object of the verb would be and he would think about "Fuck America." And it kind of made me uncomfortable because the paradox of America was that we have the freedom to express ourselves as to how lousy the government was doing such as waging wars in our name and so I thought about it, and I said, how about communism? Because it was such great, at that time, it was such a great incongruity, because it was the conservatives who were for the war. And it was conservatives who were against using language like that. And so it was a little bit confusing to them. And when the post office questioned me about it, and because I was going to send them, I had, oh, I am sorry, the printer would not print it. I could not get the people who did the engraving of the plate that we needed. They would not do it. And so I decided that I would have mention of it in The Realist and do it as a poster and the red, white, blue word "fuck" with stars and stripes and the word communism as red with hammers and sickles and says in small print at the bottom additional copies available from the Mothers of the American Revolution. And um, so it was, you know, I mean it helped. It helped. If they had printed it in the first place, and I had just used it in The Realist, it would not have brought any additional income. So bringing income was inadvertent, that was not the original purpose of that.
58:42
SM: Okay.
58:43
PK: But, but it had a purpose, which was Robert Scheer. S.C.H.E.E.R.
58:50
SM: Oh yeah I know. Yup.
58:52
PK: Oh, okay. Oh, he would be a tremendous uncompromising journalist. And now he has Truthdig. He has what? "Truthdig" (with two g's) T.R.U.T.H.D.I.G. as an online magazine. So he came to New York we had met in when he was working at the City Lights bookstore in San Fransisco. We were just talking I did not even know it is 1963 early and I did not even really know about the Vietnam War much. And he was enraged by it and he started explaining to me what was going on. And he went and he was writing a booklet for The Republic. A West Coast think tank and he wanted to, but they would not send him to Southeast Asia so he can see for himself. And so I said well, what would a round trip ticket cost you? And he said one million nine hundred dollars. And by that time, we had sold about a couple of thousand at one dollar each, so I gave him a check for the uh, to go to Cambodia, Vietnam and, do his research. So you know that was a blessing in disguise.
1:00:42
SM: Okay.
1:00:43
PK: Of not printing it in the Realist.
1:00:48
SM: Well one of the most important things you know, I am a big fan of the Newseum in Washington, D.C. and we have actually had people from the museum when I worked at the university come and speak about it and of course, it has got a brand-new building now. But the question I want to ask you is The Realist what it was like to be the editor of an underground paper, and all the pressures just to survive as a paper during these times. And the second part of the question, which I hope is an affirmative answer, has the underground press, like papers like the Realist ever been recognized by the Newseum in Washington D.C. for all of the great things that press has done? It is part of the history of America after the war, and I am I was curious if you know anything about what the Newseum has done to pay tribute to or do programs on, the underground newspapers.
1:01:48
PK: I honestly do not know. I do not know.
1:01:53
SM: And Paul please speak up too.
1:01:55
PK: Yeah, I am just, I am mumbling because I just do not know actually. I mean, there have been books about it, there is a fellow named Abe Peck, he did a book called Uncovering the (19)60s, it was a history of the underground press. And I know, I know, I think the University of Michigan had a microfilm of The Realist. And now all the issues are being put online. But I do not know if there was ever, ever any official recognition of it, by the, you know, like the Smithsonian or any of the museums.
1:02:29
SM: I think that would be I am not, I could not do it. But someone like you. And the person who was the leader of one of the biggest names: The Realist but the other newspapers whether if they are truly a Newseum that they are whether they recognize the importance of the underground press.
1:02:51
PK: It is a great idea. There should be that. You know, they, I think that those times, everybody was living so much in the present they did not think of the future like that. But sure, it is, it is a part of, of journalistic history really all of them I mean, the LA Free Press, the original publisher of that lives near me. He is now into alchemy. What are they doing now and, longevity. And it is you know there is here and there is recognizing different ways people have collected that they sometimes try to sell on eBay but it could come to pass but let us face it, you and I aren't going to do it.
1:03:55
SM: The key thing is as a person who ran an underground paper all these years what pressures did you receive from the public to shut you down ever. I mean, did you when we talked about individuals being watched by the FBI and the CIA, whether it be you, Abbie, Jerry and others, what, what were they doing in respect to the underground papers? Were they doing the same things to editors around the country and were you worried about lawsuits? Because you are doing things that other papers are afraid to do.
1:04:32
PK: Well, first of all, The Realist never did any advertising. The weekly underground papers had big advertising from the cigarette companies, and the liquor companies and the government pressured them stop the advertising, which helped diminish the underground papers. You know, I got threats and certainly the FBI attempted to harass but the serious ones, the book to read unless you wanted to interview Abe Peck goes into a lot of detail about the pressures and the harassment and the sabotage of underground papers. But I was, and those that have had problems I would sometimes do benefits for papers who were having trouble but you know the details of how the pressure and the hassling came about are revealing. You know, while the FBI was accusing us of being a conspiracy, they were the conspiracy. Conspiring to diminish whatever effect on the underground papers had.
1:06:33
SM: Mm hmm. One of the things too and I am going to get to some of the general questions here in a minute that I asked a lot of other people, but one of the things I admired about the yippies from afar was their ̶ the way; their theatrical efforts. Because when I was in college guerrilla theater was very important. Something we do not ever see today. I do not if you were talking about guerrilla theater in college campuses today, they would say what the heck is that? But I have a book that noted a lot of the participants of the (19)60s are actually interviewed in is the importance of guerrilla theater in the whole (19)60s and (19)70s era on college campuses. And actually, when you think about the yippies, you are thinking about massive guerrilla theater. Just your thoughts on whose idea was it to come up with these skits? I know you did the, talked about the Wall Street, the dollar bills, levitating the Pentagon, but coming up with colorful outfits and some of the things! Like I saw Jerry, when he came to Ohio State, Jerry Rubin, he came there one night and he look just like he does right here in the front cover of Do It. No different. And he gave he gave a tremendous speech. The place was packed and he had so much passion I will never forget! They gave him a standing ovation. But whose idea was it to do the theater part? Did you did you have practice?
1:08:13
PK: When the House of American Activities Committee came to the bay area and Jerry was going to testify. This was his first encounter with using that kind of theater. And there was the San Francisco mime troupe. And Jerry had a meeting with Ronnie Davis who ran the troupe and it was Ronnie Davis who suggested to Jerry that he go to the hearings dressed in a revolutionary costume from the American Revolution. Which he did and we have got a lot of attention and then Jerry would make comments about what was going on with the playing the American Revolution. But I asked him one time, I said, Jerry, how did you feel actually doing that? He said, I felt like an asshole but I had to do it. Because he has an example, could break through, others could break through. You know, that was a lot of feedback that I got about doing The Realist, people said to me, you know, I saw that lightning did not strike you and so it made me freer. I mean, this was people who were in mainstream media. Who said that it gave them a little show to be a little bit more risky?
1:10:14
SM: I think that is what George Carlin said to today, I was reading something about that. When he was younger that did what Lenny Bruce did and what you did and others did was made him feel hopeful.
1:10:30
PK: I do not know. No, no, it was Kurt Vonnegut who said that The Realist made him feel hopeful. Carlin said, and he wrote and then Vonnegut said it in an introduction to one of my books, the Winner of a Slow Bicycle Race. But the Carlin quote came from an introduction he had written to another one of the books Murder at the Conspiracy Convention and in that he described how it was impossible for him to read The Realist without feeling inspired. So you know, that was one of the most honorable things that have been said about my work. I was very touched. And particularly because Carlin in turn inspired so many people who have never heard of The Realist, so it is kind of you know, you throw your pebble into the stream and then it makes its own ripple.
1:11:33
SM: Yes, yes. One of the things that the tragic things of this period is I was interviewing a professor last week Dr. Petchesky at Hunter College and we were talking about I said, I have always brought up, I bring up in some of the interviews Abbie Hoffman's suicide, and the note that he left because I remember he died over here in Bucks County not far from where I live.
1:12:04
PK: But wait a minute. I do not think he left a note.
1:12:11
SM: Well, I will have to look it up, but it was from the press I think at that time, he said no one was listening to me anymore was in the note. I got the article.
1:12:25
PK: I will um, it might be true, but I am sorry if I had not known that I was under the impression, huh.
1:12:32
SM: But what I am getting at is that Abbie Hoffman committed suicide, Phil Ochs committed suicide, this professor's husband had committed suicide and he was a big anti-war Professor up at Wellesley College, because he was so upset about the war, people were not ending it and he did himself in. And then of course, I interviewed Lewis Poehler and he committed suicide as well. A Vietnam vet even though it was in 1994. My question is this. When I asked this to this professor last week, Dr. Petchesky she said, you have got to understand that when you are dealing with all these personalities in this particular era of American history, there is a lot of other things going on in their lives besides just what you see the anti-war or civil rights activities over there. They could have depression, they could have manic disorders. There is a lot of other things. And also, there is so I do not know what your thoughts were because you were close to Abbie and you knew Phil Ochs. And I remember one hearing that Phil Ochs, I believe killed himself as well. When I think of Abbie, I and that note that was in the supposedly attached to the article, it said, no one is listening to me anymore. And to me that struck me right in the heart because here is a man that I believe dedicated his entire life to doing good things, even though he may have been theatrical at times. If you saw him on Phil Donahue, when he came out of hiding, you saw the real Abbie Hoffman, who cared about saving the Hudson River and doing so many good things. And then feel that here is a man who says that no one is listening to me anymore. And I like he had two thousand dollars in the bank. I mean, it is like, unbelievable, just your thoughts on the loss of Abbie and Phil Ochs.
1:14:32
PK: Two thousand, that is a lot. [laughs]
1:14:35
SM: Yeah, well, those are that I remember that in because he lived in Bucks County.
1:14:39
PK: Yeah. Well, you know, it was always the loss of a personal friend. At the same time, the loss to the culture of what more they could have contributed. And because they were public figures, I got calls from the media asking for some kind of comment. And I had to put my grief on hold in order to kind of respond. And so you know you cannot. No one can experience the pain of someone else's suffering. Unless they suffer it themselves and you can identify with them but you feel pain that you cannot stop their pain but anybody that takes their own lives it is both cowardly and courageous, simultaneous. And Abbie had been on some meds and went off of them which had something to do with it. That is the thing about antidepressants they have tools because they give you suicidal tendencies and he had been he had been diagnosed as a manic depressive and clinically and so whereas Phil Ochs had incredible stomach pain and when he was in Africa, his throat had been slit and affected the singing and to a certain extent that nobody is listening to me anymore was in his case how some people thought he was better than Bob Dylan and but still Phil had outshone him and it was a disappointment. So, you know, these are just human emotions and human nature and the only way I can handle it is that I was grateful to be here when they were here. And in a way, they are still touchstones. You know, I will think of something that I might say on stage and this is the touchstone of Lenny is will be: hey come on, do not do that, it is a cheap shot. I mean, there was a point where I thought that I was channeling Lenny till one time that I said, come on Paul, know, you do not believe in that shit. So then I no longer channeled him. And Ken Keesey, he still appears in dreams. But you know it is just a projection of my memory of them. I do not give it any mystical, so, you know and but these are all people who have inspired us and as Dylan said, What can be better than inspiring unless you are Charles Manson and you are inspiring others. [laughs]
1:18:46
SM: Yeah, I did not even know Abbie Hoffman but, the mere fact that people have criticized him not during this interview process but people that I know through my life, and I read some of his books and I saw him on TV I always considered him a lot different than Jerry Rubin. And in so many ways because I felt that he had the gift of humor, like you do. And I can remember reading in certain books that even inmates, even the police liked him, because he made the police laugh.
1:19:26
PK: Oh, yeah,
1:19:27
SM: He made people feel good. They may not have liked the other guys, they may not have liked Tom Hayden, or Jerry Rubin or Dave Bellinger or whatever. They may not have liked them for certain reasons, but they somehow even his enemies kind of liked him. Because it was the way of who he was how he talked to people. He made them laugh.
1:19:48
PK: In "Confession" I described them. I said that Abbie was, that Jerry was the right lobe of the brain and Abbie, I am sorry, I am sorry. Jerry was the left lobe of the brain and Abbie was the right lobe of the brain. Jerry would calculate things and Abbie would just be spontaneous.
1:20:19
SM: Wow.
1:20:20
PK: Abbie was truly witty and Jerry he once told me that he would listen to a Lenny Bruce album before he went out to make a speech but you know, you cannot capture that it is not something you can set a trap for. Okay, now I have humor in there.
1:20:48
SM: Yeah, the spontaneity you going to have it or you do not.
1:20:52
PK: Yeah, I mean, I do not, you know one of my oxymoronic maximums is: practice spontaneity.
1:21:05
SM: A couple of general questions I have here because this is a book on the boomers and all the things you are talking about is have taken place in boomer lives and people experience these personalities in your work as well. When in your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
1:21:28
PK: Well, for me, it began in 1958 when I launched The Realist and it ended I think in 1974? When Nixon resigned? Okay. How important do you think the, I have been asking this question is for college students in ending the Vietnam War? It might have been (19)95. I am not sure but anyway, whatever year it was, that was it.
1:22:02
SM: Yes. (19)74.
1:22:04
PK: A nice symbolic ending.
1:22:09
SM: Let us see, the (19)60s begin and end? Yeah. The question is, how important are college students in ending the Vietnam War, in your opinion during the (19)60s and early (19)70s and how important were the yippies in this process? So some people, again, whether they are the liberals or the conservatives, because I have interviewed a lot of conservatives and they have a totally different opinion. That is what is great about this book project. They have all different thoughts, but what parts did the yippies play in ending that war in Vietnam? And what part did the college students play?
1:22:50
PK: Hard give a percentage, but I think that the largest percent biggest percentage goes to the Vietcong. And, and who inspired the protesters in the state? You know? We were not in harm's danger the way they were. You know, it started with some black students who got shot down south in 1968, I am sorry, 1970. And, and then soon after that it in May that year, the Kent State killings occurred and this is, by the way the year this May be the fortieth anniversary of that.
1:23:44
SM: I am going to be there. Oh, you are?
1:23:47
PK: Yeah. You know I wrote a piece about that with the help of one of the one of the victims Allison Krause, her sister.
1:24:00
SM: Oh yes.
1:24:00
PK: Her sister Lauren, Laurel with her mother has been organizing this truth commission kind of thing for this fortieth anniversary so and because it was never quite understood why, like I can email you that article.
1:24:29
SM: Please do. I will be there for the first through the fourth.
1:24:36
PK: Yeah, it is going to be a powerful event but so many. Again, this is, you know, part of the history that people do not really know. I am sure it is not taught in Texas, I am sure it might only be bought locally in Ohio. Who knows! I remember that night watching the Walter Cronkite on CBS Evening News and he opened it was something like it finally happened. And you know, of course you think what finally happened? World peace suddenly? But he said how American students were shot dead by the National Guard and it was just a shock. Even though I have to admit that I said out loud, "good" and the reason was because I felt it happened already. Even while I thought that was a horrific tragedy, even while I felt that, I said that, because there was nothing I could do about it had already happened and now because I remember that shootings of the black students two months before that did not get much attention if at all, I mean, it got some but miniscule. And when I said good, I meant now they'll pay attention because these were four white students. Because I shocked myself when I said that and I had a, you know, think why did I, you know?
1:26:21
SM: The Kent State students were killed on the fourth of May and the African American students, the two that were killed at Jackson State eleven days later.
1:26:33
PK: They were killed at Jackson State?
1:26:35
SM: Yeah, they were killed at Jackson State. I think it was eleven days later.
1:26:41
PK: Oh, okay. I was not sure of the chronology. But in any case, you know, that only strengthens the point I was trying to make, which is that the white students will be much more attention paid to them than the black students so you would think, that is not to make less or to negate the killing of the whites but you know.
1:27:24
SM: I have to change my tape. Al right, we are back. One of the questions I have been asking.
1:27:37
PK: Oh, by the way it was not the Hudson River it was the St. Lawrence River that Abbie was working on.
1:27:44
SM: Oh that Abbie was working on? Yeah, yeah because you remember when he went on the Phil Donahue show? He was in Seattle I believe. Phil was on the road. I was living in the Bay Area from (19)76 to (19)83 and I remember when he came on, and he had been in hiding. So this is the first time we would come out. And he had an operation on his nose so he looked a little bit different and he was remarried. And he had been living with his. I thought I had been on the Hudson, but the St. Lawrence then and he had been really working hard to save the river and he had been doing it for quite a few years under a different name.
1:28:23
PK: Yeah, the name he used underground which was Barry Freed.
1:28:27
SM: Right. The question I have been asking you we took students to Washington D.C. in the mid (19)90s and we met Edmund Muskie, it was at that (19)68 convention. The students, none of them were born obviously at that time, but we came up with a question about healing. Because there was a perception that America was coming close to a second Civil War. I remember reading about it. Some people say yes, some people say no, but the divisions are so intense, and they even came about at that convention in Chicago. And of course, it was the year the two assassinations and the president resigning and then Tet took place early in the year. And the question was this, with all the divisions between black and white, gay and straight male and female, both who for the war those who are against the war, those who supported the troops, those who did not, and all the divisions that took place, do you feel senator Muskie that we were close to a second civil war? And do you feel that this generation of seventy-four plus million people will go to their graves like the Civil War generation, not healing? And I will tell you, the senator's response after, I would like to hear your response. Whether you think we have an issue with healing in this nation, within that seventy some generation. And of course, let me say this, Paul, I consider you a boomer even though you were born in thirty-two. When I interviewed Richie Havens, who was born in 1940, he said, I have always considered a lot of people do not like these terms, boomers and Generation X and all this other stuff. But there is a linkage between generations of people who think alike and who were influenced by. And many of the leaders of the antiwar movement were born between 1940 and (19)46. They were not boomers that were defined as people born in (19)46. So what I call our pre-boomers, and pre-boomers are people who have ideas that were very influential on the generation that came about after World War II. So do you feel that as a nation we have a problem with healing?
1:30:58
PK: But you are not talking about when Muskie said it.
1:31:02
SM: I am going to let you know what Muskie be said in response to that question.
1:31:06
PK: I see. I see.
1:31:07
SM: But do you feel we have an issue with healing?
1:31:11
PK: Now? But you mean now?
1:31:13
SM: Yes right now.
1:31:15
PK: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. But the first thing the prerequisite for healing is to acknowledge what needs to be healed and the reaction to Obama's health care plan is the prime example of the hostility for, racism which was, even though it will be denied and even though he won the presidency there is another civil war. It is that the first civil war never ended. And it has come to the surface.
1:32:15
SM: Guess what?
1:32:16
PK: I, you know, I thought there would be another revolution. I did not know what would be the Tea Baggers. But it is not a revolution. So I am just saying because I wrote that article contacting Abbie Hoffman and Glenn Beck.
1:32:35
SM: You are right on target Paul because what happened is Senator Muskie said he thought he was the same guy that we saw who cried on TV, which many people felt that he was not a man and he could not be president. He had tears in his eyes and he could not respond right away. He waited a minute. And the students really admired him for this. And he said, we have not healed since the Civil War, and he said he had just saw the Ken Burns series on television. He died six months later too. He was not well, he had just gotten out of the hospital. And he said that that series touched me because we lost 440,000 men. And if you consider the percentage of the population of America at that time, we almost lost an entire generation, particularly in the south. And so, he said, we had not healed since the Civil War, talking about racial issues and the divide between North and South. And so I have gotten a lot of different responses. And he did not even he did not even respond to (19)68.
1:33:43
PK: Muskie, I mean, everybody interprets events through the prism of their own subjectivity. And so I know conspiracy researchers who said, oh, yes, one of Nixon's men, slipped a tab of LSD this is something that Muskie set adrift. Other people had said that there were variety but, but the one thing that occurs to me and I can understand it because when I was just talking about Keesey before, I almost teared up. And what happened was Muskies opponent had said something about the Senator's wife. Yes. And he said when you do that, you know, then you are not too far from like that and that was when he started, you know, weeping a little bit. Now of course, that would be considered. I mean, that was just sort of sexism really. Because it was okay for women to cry but not a real macho man. And so if someone was to do that now, it would be considered a good healthy thing. And even a sign of respect. And I think what was that movie one of my favorite movies and I forget the name, not network. Broadcast was it? It was where William Hurt.
1:35:30
SM: Oh!
1:35:31
PK: Got fired from a show because he had tears flowing down his eyes listening to somebody but, but it was ̶
1:35:42
SM: Mmmm.
1:35:43
PK: It was edited in to that that context, and I think he did it later. But it was it was that kind of thing now, you know, it was, if Mitt Romney could cry at will he would do it.
1:35:58
SM: Well one of the other issues that I have been trying to solve, I just wanted to say too that it is interesting that Obama prefers to distance himself from the (19)60s generation. All the time, he said, I am not the (19)60s. Yet he was criticized by many of his opponents, by thinking that he is bringing back to the (19)60s with his mentality being way to the left. So I find it interesting that we have a leader who wants to distance himself from that era, of that well actually, the boomer generation and yet he has been criticized by his opponents as bringing it back. So talk about an oxymoron here.
1:36:38
PK: Well, but, you know, that the thing about giving names to decades and generations, is that it is not that clear cut and so he spoke like, you know, I was going to say, like a true Boomer but you know, the protestors is really were just a small percentage of the boomers. I mean, it was not, a lot of people kind of stick it together and they are boomer bashing instead of (19)60s bashing.
1:37:17
SM: But what is interesting is he actually is a boomer, if you look at the terms because it was those born between (19)46 and (19)64, was not he born in (19)64?
1:37:26
PK: Oh, so I, you know, in the novel of writing, the narrator is a female reporter who was born in (19)64, and her mother was born in (19)46 so ̶
1:37:40
SM: Oh!
1:37:41
PK: So they book end.
1:37:43
SM: Oh, yeah.
1:37:44
PK: And have a lot in common because they communicate not because of the year they were born. But the Obama thing, I think it is more of attitude that you know, Obama was the first politician admitted to smoking marijuana and somebody said you know what you inhaled, or you enjoyed it. And he said, well that was the point. Not saying oh, I experimented with it like all the other young guys, but he did it because he liked getting high. You know so that depicted that aging hippies could identify with was him no matter what, what generation they were part of.
1:38:40
SM: The other issue I bring up besides healing is the issue of trust. And this boomer generation seems to be a very a generation that doesn't trust for obvious reasons, seeing so many leaders had lied to them during their lifetime. Whether it be President Johnson or the Gulf of Tonkin certainly Watergate with Richard Nixon. Nobody trusted Gerald Ford when he was giving a pardon to Nixon. Eisenhower lied about the U2. There were things about President Kennedy and what happened in Vietnam. That were suspicious. And there is another even as boomers have aged, there has been things that leaders have done, but you cannot trust them. Is that a good quality to have within a generation is the lack of trust? Because I think a lot of people will say that that generation, if you talk about a quality, they just do not they did not trust people.
1:39:40
PK: Well, I and I think they have earned the distrust. I mean, it has become a given now, you know, it was not even what was the ̶ what was surprising, about John McCain, saying that he was never considered himself a maverick is that there is all this footage of him identifying himself as a maverick, and even using the word in the title of his autobiography! That was how shameless these politicians are. But you cannot generalize and that was why so many people thought, who voted for Obama, thought that he was, that he really did give people hope, a hope for change. And so, you know, I have got back and forth disappointment. Now I am pleased by this, I am disappointed by that. Because if he got into the presidency, under the delusion that it could be bipartisan and, you know, I think it is so evil of the republicans to have voted against the health care process, not because they truly believed it, but because the name of the game was to give Obama his Waterloo at the expense of the countless people who have ever suffer and die because of that. And so it is no wonder that people are discouraged and cynical.
1:41:44
SM: And it is difficult for you to say but you have had a lot of people who have friends who are boomers in this age group you have seen throughout your lifetime. And by looking at them you think they have been good parents and grandparents and respect to two things. Number one sharing history and what it was like when they were younger and in making comparisons between then and now. And secondly, the activism that was seemed to be so prevalent within this generation. And again, I get criticized when I keep saying the boomers are only 15 percent we are probably activists of the seventy-four million. But still, that is a lot of people.
1:42:23
PK: And it has always been that way that the majority of people have a certain sheepishness about them. And it was Margaret Mead, who says, you know, individually, small groups of people can sometimes accomplish more. So it is not numbers but in the attitude of the public attention and having them ̶ see the contradiction. Its leadership.
1:43:05
SM: Yeah, you had a great quote in fact I got one chapter in the Grateful Dead Play the Pyramids. You have a line at the end of a paragraph here "what we need to do now", and this you are doing this with your beautiful satire though, "what we need to do now is hire Mexican workers as guest protesters so they can do the job that Americans do not want to do". And you were referring to the Bush administration and what was going on in the war in Iraq and making some comparisons. There was a draft during the Vietnam War now there is not really anything now of comparison. So that to me, is not that what you are really saying here?
1:43:49
PK: Oh, wait, did I say that in the context of the Grateful Dead?
1:43:53
SM: No, it was in the chapter. It was in the section the parts left out Chicago Ten.
1:44:00
PK: Oh yeah the Chicago Ten movement.
1:44:02
SM: Yeah. Yeah, I just think that is a beautiful statement, although people from people could miss read it, but that is to me it is satire and it hits it in a way that it connects truth.
1:44:17
PK: But I have said that on stage and the audience laughs and it is the kind of laugh that moves into applause because they take an image of you know, hiring of Mexican workers to march since, they have had proof of it in Los Angeles. But I do not, you know, I am used to being misunderstood. I want to be understood. But I think it was ̶ who said, please do not understand me too quickly. And that is one of the risks of trying to be as free as you can. Is being misunderstood and but, you know it. And that is why there is a need for damage control. [laughs] Or as I said that Toyota has borrowed McDonald's slogan, you deserve a break today. But you know a lot of the things or for the pope excommunicates himself, you know, a devout Catholic, might be offended by that, but you know, I cannot. It is just that that is the simple statement, you cannot please everybody. So, you know, any artist usually they want to reach as many people as possible but when it gets commercial art, then you kind of aim to a lower common denominator. And so I tried to aim for the highest common denominator and Dan O'Neill, a cartoonist said something real. And he said we have to remember we are not ̶ we are not fearless. And meaning that you know, that I thought my job as articulating the consciousness of the readers that I was just I had an outlet, before the internet, we are now the outlet and the creativity and imagination and insight and abilities of these citizen reporters and citizen video makers have make everybody an investigative reporter, or anybody can. You know, it helps to have training, but if you get a story that a ̶ journalist can all the better. The more the information there is, the more opportunities for people who deal in disinformation. To counteract it. I mean, that is the whole thing is that that really that we talked about that the republicans in cahoots with the pharmaceutical and the insurance industries have a tremendous propaganda machine and the only thing scarier than that is how many people swallow the line of that propaganda and it was disheartening. I mean, there are still people who think that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 911 even though it was finally denied. So, but you know, I think it was Mel Brooks says 95 percent of everything is bad. So it could be with, whether it is the movies or TV or Twitter, or whatever the medium is. And so if there was a, an ebb and a flow of power, you know, I did not even know the pope had approval ratings one way or the other, but, but it is being lowered now. Oh my god. Yes. So you know, it is so it is one big popularity contest and, public relations can hurt or help.
1:49:40
SM: Obviously, you are a little bit older and so was Jerry and Abbie and some of the Merry Pranksters, they were a little bit older. What when they were seeing these young people coming up on college campuses in the mid to late (19)60s and of course, SDS and the black power movement. And the women's movement then in the early, late (19)60s, early (19)70s, the gay and lesbian movement, the environmental movement, the Chicano movement, Native American, I mean, they all kind of came about same time. Some of them were, some of the leaders were followers were the younger ones but did you ever sit down as a group? And not just talk strategy but talk about what you thought about the generation known as the boomers. Did you think they were intellectually had generation just seen before? Were they smart? Were they knowledgeable? Were they courageous? What may have been some of the positive and negative thoughts you had on the generation?
1:50:52
PK: I do not think we ever referred then as the boomers.
1:50:55
SM: Okay.
1:50:57
PK: I do not know when the use of that term really started. Or, when it was popularized. We thought more of them in terms of their belief system and how they acted on it. And I say how they acted on it because I was a militant atheist. Until I realized at a certain point that Martin Luther King who had agreed to be interviewed by me, but the assassination interrupted that possibility. But he was but he, he was a Christian. And I interviewed George Lincoln Rockwell, the head of the American Nazi Party, and he considers himself an agnostic. So the epiphany for me was that it really did not make any difference. What anybody believed it was just how they treated others, you know, ultimately and so for your question there, oh about sitting around and boomers and so it was just easy, you know, either they were not for some it was whether they did psychedelics or not, and those were the students but it was really about I guess the closest encounter I had to that was with my brother who was while I was protesting about the war he was involved with selling helicopters that were being used Vietnam. And, so I, I felt that he was not an evil person I knew that and that he had a high security level, level of clearance and which almost was damaged by my being his brother. But, the thing is that he once said that in his lines of work that he was trying to make himself replaceable, you know, you could continue to drop along the line and I said oh, I was trying to make myself irreplaceable. So in other words, where he was talking about what was the kind of the machine grinding on and it was and so there was a level of conformity you have to do you know when you are in the corporate empire and so he was part of that scene and yet his contribution was perhaps greater than mine which was he was the co-author of the first textbook on space communication and he could appreciate the irony that people would come up to him and say you are Paul Krassner’s brother. And you know, it was only because I did stuff that got me the attention and he did not. But and so that is why that is why whatever level of fame I have, I do not take it seriously because it has nothing to do with, with me it has to do with whatever people's image of me is so because I try not to take the criticism personally, in the same sense I do not take the praise personally, just because I know if I want to praise somebody else's work, it is just an expression of my appreciation and it connects me with that person. But I have learned, you know, once I got passed my false humility that it was a mutual thing that all these people that I fell in with from Abbie Hoffman to Tim Leary, Ram Daas, Ken Kesey, that there was a mutuality, you know, we respected each other. And that was not a one way thing like, you know, a fan and the celebrity.
1:56:12
SM: Okay. You just liked being around each other.
1:56:16
PK: Liked what?
1:56:17
SM: You just like being around each other.
1:56:19
PK: Ah, yeah, yeah, it was. You know, it was interesting because a lot of these leaders were serious but they all had a sense of playfulness too you know, as I discovered when I was at some party, there were a lot of new age gurus. And I had just been covering the Patty Hearst trial and standing around in the kitchen at this party and the gurus were talking about some of the difficulties they will have with their servants and I said you know, that was just what I what the Hearsts were talking about. So, you know, that was my role. To be a court jester.
1:57:11
SM: Do you think it was a mistake for Jerry Rubin to say do not trust anyone over thirty, he was twenty-nine when he said it. I know somebody who will say that is the most one of the most ridiculous statements ever because he was one year away from being thirty himself.
1:57:26
PK: Well, it is a mistake to believe that Jerry Rubin said it.
1:57:30
SM: Okay.
1:57:31
PK: It was said by Jack Weinberg at the free speech movement that sort of triggered the free speech movement. He had been arrested and was in a police car on the Berkeley campus, which got surrounded by students. The police cars could not move. And then other people were jumping on top of the police car and bouncing on it. And then he was in the backseat ok, officers are in the front at this point.
1:58:12
SM: So he was the one that said it.
1:58:14
PK: I always think that, I knew what he meant. I knew what he meant. I, you know, I, and I knew it was ageist and I knew it was a generalization and argued against it. You know, I argued that you needed people on the inside, if we were over thirty, like Daniel Ellsberg, who released defense who was in a position to really defend risk takers.
1:58:35
SM: Right, right.
1:58:36
PK: So I tried my best not to generalize like that, but it was it was a statement. It was rhetoric really. And, it was just, it was just kind of acknowledging that there was a certain generation gap. But it was not meant that literally any more when Abbie Hoffman said kill your parents, and he had two kids, and he was not wanting them to kill him, and Jerry Rubin borrowed that. And Jerry Rubin was an orphan so it was a moot point. And, you know, there was some rivalry between them and the National Enquirer picked up Jerry saying that and he was on the front page of the Enquirer, the picture of Jerry saying, and the headline was something like: Yippie leader says "kill your parents."
1:59:38
SM: Oh, my gosh!
1:59:41
PK: I objected to it. Ironically, because it would be misunderstood but it was obviously a historical metaphor about it was like when I when I left college with only three credits needed to graduate, one course. I was killing my parents, in a sense, in that sense. I mean, that is the sense it meant, symbolically. Not living up to the vision that they had, that you would become.
2:00:19
SM: Well, I know that Miri Savio, when the leader will always the main speaker of that movement. He is ̶ there is a brand new book out it is a very good book by Dr. Croen from NYU, I encourage you to read it. It is a great book. And he talks about the fact that it was the differences there was that his generation, that generation of the Free Speech Movement was we were a generation of ideas. And we are not a generation of careers like our parents. And that was the big split right there. And I interviewed Arthur Chickering, the great educator who wrote Education and Identity which was a textbook used in higher education, the early (19)70s and when I interviewed him, he was telling me the biggest weakness today in the university is we have gone back to exactly what it was before the Free Speech Movement we would become a corporate University again. And that is his biggest criticism as an educator is the corporations are priority number one in higher education and of course, Clark Kerr's Multiversity, and he explained that back then the students were trying to change it, but I guess what goes around comes around again. I have a couple more questions here. How long were you involved with Ken Kesey's Merry Pranksters? Who were they and why are they important as cultural figures?
2:01:47
PK: Well, Let us see. I did not go on the bus trip. But Kesey always said you are either on the bus or off the bus but he said to me, you were on the bus even though you were not on the bus. And so it was about, I met him first, he had read The Realist and Kesey told me that when I published the issue with the parts of that out of the Kennedy book, which had to do with an act of presidential necrophilia, in a context built up in literary form of apocrypha so that started to think it was totally true and then things that were known by reporters but not by the general public, and then things that were happening and leading up to this climactic scene. And so, Neal Cassidy who was driving the bus and one day he was reading this and he handed back issue too Kesey and said and fit, hey chief, you better take a look at this. And, so we knew of each other's work and then I met him for the first time at the Berkeley campus during the first Vietnam feature and which I was emceeing and he came up to me and continued a conversation that had never started. He did not introduce himself, he just came up and said his wife, you know, Fay was just as saying; because the connection already existed before we actually met and I mean, I was fortunate to have a magazine where I could meet these people and interview them and you know, and they would and I could never have that opportunity interacting with it without the magazine. And so the point I was going to make. It will come back.
2:04:37
SM: The Merry Pranksters?
2:04:39
PK: Well anyway, and then that was I think around (19)65 maybe. And then in 1970, I got a call from Stewart Brand, publishing the Whole Earth Catalog and he had asked Kesey to edit the last supplement for the Whole Earth Catalog, and Kesey said he would do it if I could co-edit it with them and so Brand called me up and asked me that and I remember answering yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! And when I moved to the west coast San Francisco and then Venice Beach. And so we became close friends during that time when we were putting out preparing the last supplements. And then I spent a lot of, we would spend Christmas there sometimes and my daughter Holly and I would, that is how Holly became part of the extended family and, and then I did go on, there was a reunion bus trip and I went, I did go on that. But until we get to the heart of your question what the original bus trip went across country. It looked like you know, kids used to want to run away with the circus this way they wanted to hitch a ride on, on the bus further, right? It was colorful. It was humorous. It was gentle. It was like a traveling the guerrilla theater and the people who joined in became part of it. You know, we just hung around and talk to people on the bus or marvel about all of the paintings that were around it and so it was it was a certain kind of, it turns people on. And, you know, it was like a movie, you know the colorful gas, but with these colorful figures popping out it was like aliens in a way. And I remember on the on the reunion trip Kesey was at the back of the bus and he was filling balloons with helium and with a string attached and giving them to kids and this woman and her young son came by and he gave one and the mother gave Kesey a quarter. And he said, with a smile, so she would know he was kidding. He said, "what a quarter? I am a famous author, madam." And she did this double take she did not know whether she had embarrassed him or, or whether she should give him $1.00 was a nice moment, as it was, you know, it was revealing his personality that he was doing that he did not assign it to somebody.
2:08:22
SM: Right.
2:08:23
PK: And, and he was he was always gregarious. He and I did a lot of events together and then we would hang around with the college booking people or whoever organized the event. And Kesey said that was really part of the deal so they could hang around. And it was true. And humbling, you know, which brings me right back to your original question about how I felt about my life. You know, whether I was proud of it and it was more of more, more gratitude than pride. And you know, both often as an atheist, you know, I, I still felt gratitude but there was a phrase I used in one of my books The Tell Tales of Kung Foo about a man with a fifteen inch Schwanz and very popular with the ladies.
2:09:36
SM: Hmm.
2:09:37
PK: And one of the characters in that says, God never says you are welcome. And I thought yeah that that, that that summed it up. I am in awe of nature and of evolution and lately becoming almost as much in awe of technology.
2:10:00
SM: Of course Ken Kesey he was a great writer too, yeah a great writer. Because of your work with The Realist and your magazine articles and everything and books you were able to link up with these people. You linked up with the Beats. I know there is things in there about Allen Ginsberg and obviously some of the Merry Pranksters, I think. Neal Cassidy was one, I believe, and um, how important were the Beats? I know there is this section in one of your books where Jack Kerouac is asked about whether the Beats were part of a social movement of protests, and he said, no, we were just, we were not about social protest. And he disagreed with Allen Ginsberg on this, on some sort of a panel.
2:10:48
PK: It was not a panel, this was at the twenty-fifth anniversary of the publication of On the Road.
2:10:53
SM: Right.
2:10:53
PK: And it was in Golden, Colorado at Naropa, the Buddhist College.
2:11:01
SM: Yes.
2:11:02
PK: I was a moderator and the panelists were William Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, Abbie Hoffman and Tim Leary.
2:11:07
SM: Is that on tape? That should be a documentary that should be on tape! That should be seen! Golly!
2:11:15
PK: I probably have a cassette of that particular panel.
2:11:20
SM: Wow.
2:11:22
PK: And I quoted from it in ̶ biography and it was so it was, so Ginsberg and Abbie were, were arguing about whether the, this panel title has something to do with, with a socially activist ̶
2:11:47
SM: Mm hmm.
2:11:48
PK: And, and Abbie's, Allen's point was that Kerouac and the Beats, they were neither winning nor losing this conspiracy. And Abbie argued, you know, that you were being political, when, when you hired that case that that lawyer obscenity case you wanted to win so, and that was Abbie's point of view. And I asked as moderator when Ginsberg had said that, I asked Abbie, well I forget how I phrased it but I quoted Abbie for quoting Che Guevara who said in a revolution one wins or dies. And so, so it was really a discussion about not winning or losing but winning and losing were kind of equal in the sense and it gave me a flashback to when I was an adolescent. And I played baseball and basketball. And I never cared if my team won or not. I just played my best, you know, it has just been because I was obsessed with infinite time and space, it would give me a headache. So I, you know, and so a game like that, you know, I could understand how people get disappointed or get thrilled, depending on whether they lost or won.
2:13:28
SM: Right.
2:13:30
PK: But, you know, ultimately it was just a game. And unfortunately, that is the way the politicians are, going back to why there is much skepticism. To them it is just a game,
2:13:45
SM: Right.
2:13:45
PK: And the goal of the game is to get reelected and so and so their occupation has become fundraising.
2:13:59
SM: Appreciate it.
2:14:00
PK: It is simulating so you know.
2:14:02
SM: Yeah, your, your life is just like, I wish I was in person I could interview all day, eight hours. I mean, you got so much and I have so many questions here. And I am not going to get into all of them. But one of the things here is, it is, I am fascinated because you obviously are a very outgoing person because you have made so many friends in so many different areas, whether it be the yippies or the merry pranksters or the beats or writers all over the country. You name it. I even saw you on TV. I saw a video on TV where you were on a panel with the former mayor of San Francisco's daughter. She was on there you were reminiscing the (19)60s.
2:14:44
PK: Oh, wait was that Alioto?
2:14:50
SM: Yes, she [Angela Alioto] was she was the daughter of the mayor of San Francisco. She was on the panel. You spoke and she spoke in it and she made a comment about you know, the she her dad kind of hid her from things, but she had to sneak out to enjoy the (19)60s as a seventeen year old or something like that.
2:15:07
PK: That is right. Yep. I remember at a dinner party that my daughter gave where I told her about, when I had a radio show in San Francisco. Her dad was going to be somebody, the producer arranged for him. No it was not arranged. I did not have a producer, it was that they were on tour with the mayor and his bodyguard, whoever they were ̶ And he and he wanted to be on the program ̶ perform an interview, but I was but I was told that I could not ask a certain question about some rent control or some question that he had been involved in. And I said if I cannot ask him that I am not going to interview him for that. So I think a guy from the news department interviewed him instead.
2:16:12
SM: Oh my gosh!
2:16:14
PK: I got a kick out of that.
2:16:17
SM: One of the things about Timothy Leary, of course, Ram Daas, I did not know that he had a stroke. He was that I saw him on television just the other day on some sort of a documentary. But one of the things when I interviewed people, and I mentioned these names at the very end for just responses and comments. I have not gotten one positive on Timothy Leary. Everybody's negative about them in every single way. And when they mentioned Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman, and occasionally some people talk about Abbie and nobody will ever say anything positive about Jerry Rubin. But the question is this, he is known for his slogan "tune in, turn on, drop out" and for a lot of people that believed that the ̶ (19)60s was all about not tuning in turning on and dropping out but about being out there on the front lines like the yippies were. Seems like that is even counter to yippie thinking that you can turn on, yes. But to drop out? Just your thoughts on that slogan and whether that is really hurt his image overall beyond his links to drugs because that is the biggest negative.
2:17:35
PK: First of all, since You have gotten, let me first say, you know, I have positive things to say about Abbie. Positive things to say about Jerry Rubin and Jerry Rubin got criticized a lot because he became a yuppie.
2:17:51
SM: Yep.
2:17:52
PK: And they went around, toured the map, Abbie and Jerry went around having debates, the yippies versus the yuppies which I moderated. At one point, I made a remark that they were throwing money in the stock exchange. Today, that means then, this time Jerry would invest it. And of course Leary, Leary was a friend and I have positive things to say about him. You know, the point is that people remember what the media said about them. And I just know one thing that Kesey said to me, we were talking about his image. And he said, and he said, the difference between his energy and his image, my energy is what I do. My image is what people think I do.
2:18:51
SM: Mmm.
2:18:52
PK: And so that is, that is the way it is, and people get used to shorthand used to describe people and it becomes like a quick caricature. And you know, or the movies I have seen whether it is a biopic about Billie Holiday or Lenny or others that I might know personally, it is always difficult. I did not know Billie Holiday but the thing happened to her but people who did see the movie were horrified by how it left out the basic truth but he died on the way to the hospital because other hospitals would not admit her because she was black. And that was not in the movie. How could it not be? And so the same thing with Lenny and the same thing with a movie about Abbie, and so people get the images from the entertainment rather than from history.
2:19:53
SM: Mm hmm.
2:19:54
PK: And so what exactly was your question then?
2:20:01
SM: It was whether you think that that philosophy have "tune in, turn on, drop out" it seems to be a negative term and just about everybody I have spoken to. You know, when I mentioned the name, that is all they think of is "tune in, turn on, drop out".
2:20:18
PK: [Inaudible]
2:20:19
SM: And even on television a week ago, you might even be able to find it on CNN, they were up at Harvard University, and they were interviewing college students at Harvard, they said, did you know that the LSD was started here at Harvard? And the students were saying, yes, yes, I know. But then some said, do you want to talk about it? Have you ever taken it? And some said, yes. And another said, no. And then some would say, I am not going to talk about it. And they all knew who Timothy Leary was, but there was a perception that it was a negative for Harvard. That was the bottom line.
2:20:57
PK: Yeah, and understood. That you know, they have no inclination of countercultural history. Even though it is part of history, it is marginalized. And so it is understandable, you know, there is probably people now who think that Abbie Hoffman is the Congresswoman from upstate you know, and it is their fault. But they cannot be resented for it, they just did not learn about it and the more time goes on the more there is to learn and is unlearned. You know, that is unfortunate, but the people that they did influence are the better for it. And you cannot win them all. Or you cannot lose them all.
2:21:55
SM: Right. The one thing I have here and again, these are just direct questions to you. Do you think your links to the issue hurts your effectiveness as a cultural critic as a satarist now and I am might even be saying with Tim Leary's image, the idea here is that drugs take you away from reality? Do not you have to be in reality to change it? And, I know I have read your books and I understand the experience and some writers say they can even write better on marijuana or LSD, some of these other experiences. But do you think people are ever going to understand drugs and understand not only obviously a part of history, but the effect that has and there is still this all it is always negative, it is all negative?
2:22:48
PK: Well, that is because it goes back to the propaganda machine. The Partnership for Drug Free America was founded and funded by the alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceutical industries for all of whom a drug, a weed that you grow in your garden, your window garden for nothing was a threat to the economy, to their, their industry why would anybody if they had all the facts want to smoke cigarettes they have killed one thousand two hundred people a day or marijuana which gives you a good feeling and it is not addictive as cigarettes are and who and that make that allows people to be more social and they credit it as being an aid to creativity or ̶ or for medicine now that now that you seem to be on the point of it is possibly marijuana possibly becoming legal, and the right thing being done for the wrong reason you know they are not doing it as a as a moral imperative they are doing it because the country's going broke and so it has gotten bad press and but more and more, just like gays came out of the closet, people are coming, you know, Ellen DeGeneres was on the cover of Time saying yep, I am gay and it is possible that they'll have it a photo of somebody on the cover of Newsweek saying, yep, I am stoned. I think that will be an advance. Because as long as any government can arbitrarily decide which drugs are illegal or illegal, then anybody in prison on the on the nonviolent drug offense is a political prisoner. That is my position.
2:25:35
SM: Just a couple more, and then we are going to be done. Okay, now looking at the music of the era, you know, it is too much to ask you, you know, every musician that you are liked, but when you look at all of your experiences in the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and maybe the (19)80s, or even beyond, are there a few songs that stand out more than any other that you feel had the greatest influence? You personally maybe number two, the whether it be the merry pranksters or the yippies or just the boomer generation as a whole those born after (19)46 which musician which musicians and music or specific songs have the greatest impact.
2:26:20
PK: Oh, Let us see. I guess the one that comes to mind is John Lennon's Imagine.
2:26:32
SM: Mm hmm.
2:26:33
PK: Because, you know, it was outrageous to hear a song with "imagine no religion", and then here is played by muzak in an elevator. So you know, and I would love the Senate Glee Club singing “Imagine no possessions." But anyway, it was really ̶ song of uniting people rather than fighting at that song was really about. And, and I think that is what but no one either as a (19)60s generation or whatever. But whatever it is that the thing that stands out about that like Woodstock, that there was a sense of community and their sense of cooperation as opposed to competition. And, so those, those are the qualities that fight for advance and you know, there are there are people who say they are always good and evil. And um, but, but you know, and if that is true I remember once I was saying, it is never going to end and he said what? And I said when is it going to end this battle between good and evil. And my friend said, maybe never. And suddenly I was relieved. So, just do the best you can, instead of trying to save the world to start with yourself and work your way out.
2:28:54
SM: Very good advice.
2:28:55
PK: With the thought that the people that you have touched, will work their way out. And at least it is not so overwhelming a soul as to change world. You know. Socrates said, know thyself. Norman Mailer said "be thyself" and the counterculture said "change thyself."
2:29:24
SM: Hmm.
2:29:24
PK: But that that is the evolution of "know thyself"
2:29:29
SM: Essentially because I was coming right into the terms. I have probably half the interviews I have done and not the early one back in the late (19)90s. When I first started this, and that is, there were three terms that seemed to stand out symbolizing the boomer generation that grew up after 1946 to (19)64. And then asked people to respond to these three and then one came up, which was a fourth one. The first one was Malcolm X said "by any means as necessary" they were symbolizing the more radical, violent aspects that whether it be the Weatherman or some people; black power, the Black Panther Party or the Young Lords and the Chicano movement, what happened at the end of the AIM situation (19)73 at Wounded Knee. The second one was Bobby Kennedy, which was Henry David Thoreau's quotes. I do not usually get the quote 100 percent right but you do "some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and asked why not" which is symbolic.
2:30:36
PK: Bobby Kennedy said that.
2:30:37
SM: Yes, but it was originally a Henry David Thoreau quote.
2:30:41
PK: Oh, I did not realize.
2:30:42
SM: Yeah, and that symbolized the activism, the concept that I want to make a difference in this world and I am going to fight injustice and make the world a better place to live. And the third one was kind of what was on a Peter Max poster in 1971, which I thought was more of a hippie mentality, which was "you do your thing and I will do mine if by chance we should come together it will be beautiful." That was a Peter Max poster is saying I know that was very popular in (19)71. And the other one that came up from other people was We Shall Overcome symbolizing the civil rights movement. And the only other one that a few people have said is John Kennedy's "Ask not what your country can do for, ask what you can do for your country. And then the Timothy Leary too quote that I mentioned earlier, are there some quote You have already mentioned quite a few quotes today, even some of the yippie quotes and your quotes and is there a quote that you feel is also very important that defines the boomer generation?
2:31:48
PK: Not the boomers or the boomer generation, I was going to put people identified. Yes, it could be. With Harry Chapin the singer songwriter said "If you do not act like there is hope there is no hope."
2:32:03
SM: Hmm.
2:32:07
PK: And then there is my own which is "If you eat a pub sandwich at a delicatessen, be sure to take the toothpick out for your first bite."
2:32:19
SM: That is a good one.
2:32:20
PK: That is my philosophy.
2:32:21
SM: That is a very good one.
2:32:23
PK: You got to be practical before you get into the deep stuff.
2:32:28
SM: Right?
2:32:29
PK: If you have a bleeding upper palate, it is not no fun.
2:32:34
SM: It is a good point uh, Paul when you think of the ̶
2:32:37
PK: Was the pun intended?
2:32:38
SM: What?
2:32:38
PK: You said "good point", no pun intended?
2:32:41
SM: No! no! No! No pun intended.
2:32:43
PK: Pun intended.
2:32:45
SM: P.U.N. right?
2:32:46
PK: P.U.N. as in toothpick.
2:32:48
SM: Yes. The pictures. I think I know what you are going to say in this because I read one of your books that the pictures that you feel define the generation because pictures say a thousand words, oftentimes, and when I thought of the (19)60s and (19)70s, I think of three pictures that came to mind and but when you think of, say the (19)50s (19)60s (19)70s or (19)80s, what are the pictures that come to your mind photographs that were in front of newspapers or magazines that if they had not read a thing they could, it would tell a lot about the time that we are talking about.
2:33:26
PK: Well there are two sides to pick from, besides the big one, one is a horror picture of a group of people including a little naked girl running in Vietnam had just had been splashed with Napalm.
2:33:43
SM: Thats Kim Phuc, that is one of them.
2:33:46
PK: Uh, huh .And, on the other hand, it was a poster. It was originally going to be it was "the war is over." And I think it was and the design on a poster was going to be that classic one of from World War II of the sailor kissing a woman on the street. And feminism was an early contemporary feminism, was in it is early phase and so there was a kind of sensitivity to even the implication of that, you know that it is good that the war was over, but that was no reason to impose yourself on a stranger and so to be politically correct, there was a photo on the poster of a Vietnamese woman with her arms outstretched and there was doves, white doves, perched on her arms in that gesture.
2:34:57
SM: Wow.
2:34:59
PK: And that is kind of the anecdote to the other one.
2:35:05
SM: Of the three that I was thinking of in that you mentioned one. One was the three athletes at the 1968 Olympics, the black power with the fists up. Right.
2:35:17
PK: Tommy Smith and John Carlos and the third one was the girl over the body at Kent State. Jeff Miller was shot and Mary Vecchio that made the front cover of Newsweek and won the Pulitzer Prize that picture. And the one that I thought you were going to mention was the one of the gentlemen putting flowers in a gun at the 1967 protest at the Pentagon. Oh, yeah, that ̶ actually was yippie organized. He was known as "Super Joel."
2:35:55
SM: Mm hmm.
2:35:57
PK: But the other one also stands out. Another horrible one was the Vietnamese, South Vietnamese general shooting?
2:36:07
SM: Yes.
2:36:08
PK: Sitting there on his knees, shot him in the head.
2:36:10
SM: Yep.
36:10
PK: That, that kind of remains.
2:36:12
SM: Another one was the, the My Lai massacre where you have the picture of all the people alive and then all of them dead on the ground.
2:36:21
PK: Yeah.
2:36:21
SM: That, that is a, that is a terrible picture too.
2:36:23
PK: There was a photo I had taken by Paul Avery a reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle who investigated the Zodiac and Patty Hurst case, and he had been in Vietnam and the photo which I had on my wall many years. And it was of both mother and child, obviously has been geared by Vietnam, just looking out in horror, looking directly at you. And then when my daughter came to live with me, she said Daddy, why do you have that on the wall? And I said, Well, you know, it puts my problems in perspective. But then one time, after I had been living there for ten years, Ken Kesey came to visit us and we had such a relationship that he could get away with this and he just ripped it off the wall and he said it is time to take that off the wall. And you know, you would not want a stranger to do that, but, but I saw Kesey's point of view and you know, because but I had wanted to see it because that picture so horrified me at first it just became part of the scenery you know, you can ̶
2:37:33
SM: Right.
2:37:36
PK: Just repetition just each time I looked at it another level, another layer of edge was taken off and it just and it was kind of a metaphor for horror in general you know what people have gone on through that, you know, you cannot really remember pain, you can remember having it but and then so it is like that with art. You have it on your wall and then it is there and it is there and that is it. But if you move it to another place in the house and you are tense again. But I think what has happened is a lot of people have become inured to horror by twenty-foor/seven news cycles as well as all of the Chainsaw Massacre movies. Just part of the culture.
2:38:54
SM: You cannot end an interview without a couple of things that you said in your book that needs to be on record. That is the, the positives of the counterculture. I am very pleased that you have given me the names of these individuals to interview to make sure that their point of view is heard and it will be. But in your book, you mentioned four or five items here that are very positive results, lasting results of the counterculture. And I just want to mention them, and you can expound on any of them if you want to, but organic food, environmental movements, the alternatives spiritual practices, which I see all the time with our students, alternative medical practices, certainly the peace movements that are ongoing even though we would like to see more of them. Organic food is a big one. It is part of our life now. And so, if You have any thoughts on what any more that you can say about some of the positive results of the counterculture that the critics never mentioned,
2:40:03
PK: Well, well, what we really wanted we wanted to have people in the future party with a (19)60 theme where everybody could have oregano in a baggie and give it to other people, in their tie-dyed shirts. That was our real goal.
2:40:31
SM: I did not hear you what? I said that was our real goal. To inspire (19)60s fashion parties in the (19)70s and (19)80s. Really?
2:40:41
PK: Not really! But you have to take the risk of being misunderstood.
2:40:48
SM: I do not remember reading that in the list. Go ahead. [laughs]
2:40:57
PK: But it is as if but it is as if that was it that is the only you know, evolution continues and, and something else deems campy when it was the way that we lived our lives. But you know and so that is why it is important not to remain frozen in the (19)60s, because I would miss a lot of this century then.
2:41:33
SM: You, obviously you are really anybody who is in a position of responsibility or I do not want to say always authority but somebody who is out there speaking their mind having points of view the ultimate integrity, Arthur Chickering, the great educator Rhodes educated identities, said the ultimate is integrity. Integrity means I know who I am. I know what I stand for. I know what I believe in. I am willing to be criticize and praised for it. I am strong enough to take both. And I believe you are that kind of person too. And it is interesting when you have the kinds of critics here like a Harry Reasoner, I remember this. I remember Harry Reasoner I remember he did not treat. Forget her name very well, when she was on television with him, um Barbara Walters. "Krassner not only attacks, establishment values, he attacks, decency in general." You have got to be a pretty strong person to be able to handle that kind of stuff.
2:42:31
PK: Oh, well, I never. I was amused by it and the noise of being coupled with Joe McCarthy when he said that McCarthy and I were the only people that Harry Reasoner would not shake hands with if he met them as part of his professional career.
2:42:54
SM: Wow.
2:42:55
PK: And so I was annoyed by the fact that says Senator Joe McCarthy had immunity from with everything he said whereas I had to deal with the possibility of libel so I was amused by it otherwise and was going to try to arrange with a photographer friend that could get me into a party where Harry Reasoner was going to be just so I could introduce myself and put my hand out to shake so that the photographers could get a photo of that and then I could publish it with his quote underneath.
2:43:42
SM: Hmm.
2:43:43
PK: I never got around, but you know, I just had learned that he said for his needs, not mine
2:44:00
SM: And of course he died way too early too I think he fell down stairs or something like that.
2:44:06
PK: But again I had a one person show in Los Angeles and it was called Attacking Decency in General, so nothing gets wasted.
2:44:19
SM: Right! [laughs]One couple things I want to throw in here I love the quote you had in your book Dave Dellinger said "the power of the people is our permit." I thought that was a beautiful that is a quote. And of course Phil Ochs, even though he has passed on. I Ain't Marchin' Anymore is still a very important music that goes through many generations. So his legacy lives on.
2:44:52
PK: In fact, a documentary about Phil Ochs in production now.
2:44:59
SM: Oh, really? That is good.
2:45:00
PK: But that will hopefully bring a, somebody is also writing a screenplay about him. And Sean Penn originally wanted to do something about him and play him and even do the singing. So it is good that is his legacy.
2:45:22
SM: I am down to my final two questions here. And one of them is the Twinkie defense. I cannot as another term that came from you. And that is because I did not know until I read the book that that that term came from you. And of course, I lived in the Bay Area when that happened. I was in Burlingame. And I was there from (19)76 to (19)83. So I was out there when all this happened, and the two killings and then the trial and, and then of course, he committed suicide a couple years later, but just your thoughts on comparing that experience of being out there in San Francisco when all this happened to compared to some of the other things, this is like this is (19)78 now we are talking about this is not the (19)60s.
2:46:12
PK: Well, you know what, I covered the Patty Hearst case and a trial and, and the Dan White trial and I was struck by the contrast between because Patty Hearst was kidnapped and forced to be present with a machine gun when a bank was robbed. And she had to and she was, and she was found guilty. Whereas, Dan White deliberately committed a double political execution and got off easy and that is it summed up by Lenny Bruce's maximum that "In the halls of justice the only justice is in the halls."
2:47:09
SM: Hmm. Wow. Yeah because I, I was I were you outdoors that day when Joan Baez was singing it was the outdoor event? It was after the I guess the caskets were inside City Hall and they had that event out there they had a flyer and seemed like?
2:47:33
PK: Oh yeah, I remember that.
2:47:34
SM: There were thousands of people.
2:47:35
PK: Marching with candles.
2:47:36
SM: Yes. It was an unbelievable experience to be there, another person murdered.
2:47:46
PK: Because I got caught in the post-verdict riot and beat by the cops and which affected my whole posture and my gait. So it is you know, it had its own effect on me.
2:48:00
SM: Right, how you doing?
2:48:02
PK: Well, I have walk with a cane now, so I would skip over that. But you know, I would like to do it over. But I have to accept the reality of it. So.
2:48:18
SM: I think Rex Weiner said that he was there too. He was there. Maybe not with you what with others after that verdict was given, he was pretty upset. And the last question I have here is, again, it is kind of goes back to the first question. How do you feel as time passes? As all the people who experienced what you experienced pass on I am feeling this now and I am 60, my parents felt this when all their friends were going on. I saw them in the World War II generation. And it is like, it worries me because I worry our history just is not there when we are gone. But here is my question. How do you feel as time passes as all the people who experienced what you experienced pass on? Are you fearful that one: time will wipe out you and your peers history away from the history books, because of the people who will be writing it when the boomer generation is all gone? They did not live during that period. And secondly, fear that the future writers will look at the yippies, your work as nothing but the theatrics? Acting childish, adults never growing up? No real meaning beyond what I just mentioned, because that has been some of the critics of a lot of the boomer generation, that they never grew up.
2:49:50
PK: That is a good question because I have thought about that and you know, I had the fantasy that my autobiography would become required reading because it has gotten a lot of praise and it was Art, the fellow who wrote Art Spiegelman who wrote Maus, and got a Pulitzer prize for it, and they called my book the definitive book about the (19)60s and because my life kind of was a microcosm of how that evolved. And so that is, that is my contribution to that history and you know, I cannot, I will not know about it when I am dead, of what they say about whatever my legacy is, but you know, there is nothing I can do about it and I cannot worry about it. It is just, you know, you do what you do. It is all summed up by Popeye "I am where I am." So I um, and, you know, and in the long run, ultimately it doesn't matter, you know, there is only so much history people can absorb. And, and my personal history is nothing in comparison to global warming. And so I just try to keep my perspective.
2:52:02
SM: And so when you talk about your lasting legacy that is what you are saying then ̶
2:52:08
PK: That what?
2:52:09
SM: What do you hope your lasting legacy will be and what would you think the lasting legacy ̶
2:52:15
PK: Oh my lasting legacy, I want to be that whoever I inspired will inspire other people, so it continues on with the without me. You know, I have my goal was to communicate without compromise, which is what Lenny's was and most of the people I know, and I was fortunate enough to be in a position to be able to do that. And then so you know, if I can whenever something happens, I am always aware of, is something I can do about this or not something I could do about it? And if there is not something I can do about it then I go on to the next thing. And, you know, and it is a lot of decisions, whatever passes before your perception. You know, going to get involved and not get involved. And the older I get, the more of my priorities fall in place. And it is too late, you know, I would like to have the novel I am working on become a best seller, but if it doesn't, at this point, you know, as my wife once said "process his product" and so I am enjoying the process of it.
2:53:56
SM: That is what I am doing.
2:53:57
PK: I am pleased through that Simon and Schuster published the autobiography Confessions of a Raging Unconfined Nut, Misadventures in the Counterculture in 1993. And since then, I have expanded on it, and it is about to be published digitally. And so, you know, people will be able to get it on their iPads or whatever. So, so my legacy is, in my case, what I have written, and that can go on and, that is it, you know.
2:54:51
SM: And lastly, what do you think the legacy of this boomer generation will be? Again, if someone is born right after World War II, that was how they were defined. There were all these babies born after World War II.
2:55:05
PK: Well, they are realizing what a commodity they are. You know, there are, as you know, there are a demographic. And what I just read in today's local paper here is that this there are two, at least two senior centers that are taking the word 'senior' out of their title out of the title of the centers they run, because boomers do not like to think of themselves as senior citizens.
2:55:37
SM: Wow.
2:55:40
PK: You know, that is and so that goes to show that they are, you know, that they are worth, that they are worth something as, as consumers. And that is better than nothing at all.
2:56:11
SM: Yeah, and one of the things too, that you bring up in your book is the AARP or something, people that produced that movie on the History Channel about I think it was the hippies.
2:56:24
PK: Yeah.
2:56:25
SM: Yeah, that.
2:56:26
PK: But that had nothing to do with the AARP.
2:56:28
SM: No, did not have anything to do the AARP, but I am saying the history channel that they, it was almost like they, the attackers were more prominent than the people who experienced it or whatever. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
2:56:47
PK: Oh, just what my favorite color is.
2:56:50
SM: What is your favorite color?
2:56:52
PK: Orange.
2:56:53
SM: Ah, yeah, talking about colors, that flag! Whose idea was the flag for the yippies. Who came up with that design? Yeah, the marijuana plant. I do not have a right in front of me here. Oh yes, I do. Yeah, who came up with a design for the yippie flag? The red star with the marijuana the flag of the youth international party?
2:57:19
PK: You mean the calligraphy? Well, I do not remember off-hand who did come up with that, but, but that is the thing about it. A lot of people in in those days did things boundlessly and did not want credit for it. And in a certain sense, it did not matter. You know? I am going to change my name, to anonymous so that I can get credit for a lot of things that I did not write.
2:58:01
SM: Also, you know, you got Groucho. I guess he tried drugs for the first time? So that was an interesting experience. Would you consider Groucho a real (19)60s person?
2:58:14
PK: Oh, I just never, you know, I think that there is a quality that goes through civilization that there are people they question authority. And, and so I think of Groucho as having as a, as somebody who encouraged questioning authority by making them by his irreverence, and I just do not label him with a ̶
2:58:56
SM: Very good.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Paul Krassner
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Krassner, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Authors, American--20th century;Journalists; Comedians; Publishers; Realist (New York, N.Y.); Krassner, Paul--Interviews
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Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor, and publisher of the <em>Realist</em> magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography <em>Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture</em>. He studied Journalism at Baruch College.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-03-10
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.165a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.165b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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179:00
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Audio interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
1996
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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John J. Burns, 1921-2004
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John J. Burns (1921-2004) was New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6915,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"}">John J. Burns (1921-2004) was the New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"War protests; Traditional American household; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":833,"3":{"1":0},"9":0,"11":4,"12":0}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"War protests; Traditional American household; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":833,"3":{"1":0},"9":0,"11":4,"12":0}">War protests; Nineteen sixties; Early nineteen seventies; Traditional American household; Drugs; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Vietnam veterans; Vietnam memorial; Broome County<br /></span></span>
<p></p>
Duration
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59:14
Subject LCSH
Politicians--United States--New York; Democratic Party (N.Y.); Burns, John J., 1921-2004--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: John Burns
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: William Palmer
Date of interview: 1996
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:22
SM: My first question is, the boomer generation in the
(19)60s and early (19)70s is being attacked as one of the reasons for the breakdown of American society. Could you respond to this criticism and comment on the period and its impact on present day America?
00:48
JB: The boomer generation is being blamed?
00:52
SM: A lot of things that I hear, whether it be the Christian coalition or commentary for the Republican Party ̶ A lot of times they go back to events of the 1960s era to blame and then they start blaming the generation that grew up then
01:06
JB: Of course they [the boomers] were then in their teens or maybe 20 years old. Well, I think the (19)60s was an era when we went through very historic and difficult times. We had three assassinations, John Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy. And I think early in the (19)60s there was great hope for our country among the young people that, you know, that generation slightly older than them [boomers]. And as a result of the assassination, I think I lost that hope. Mixed in with that was the feeling that the Vietnam War was not a war that we should be fighting and many, many people of that age group protested the war. I think the hippie movement was sort of a statement of their objections to what was happening in our country and to our country. And many of them have turned out to be conservative people. They grew out of it, in other words, I do not think they are to blame for anything that is wrong with our country. I think the problems in our country are caused by all problems that are covered here caused by economics and by social changes. Economics brings about social changes. For example, many families in the late (19)50s and early (19)60s had one parent at home with the children, young children as well as teenagers. And as time went on, to maintain, to make a living, both parents had to work. Of course a lot of women wanted to work anyway. They wanted to be more than just a housewife. So we end up with families with nobody home. And we also have growing [unintelligible] in regard to marriage. Marriage is not as permanent as it was in my generation. People get married and then they get divorced. Some people never marry, but they have children anyway. And these things have all created many problems, social problems. Also mixed within this same picture was the increase in drug use. Some of the people in that generation did a lot of drugs, particularly marijuana, and they got into stronger drugs. And if you saw pictures of the big gathering out at Woodstock, yeah. A lot of drug use going on there, a lot of smoking and all that. And a lot of experimentation with drugs that went on. I think the advent of drugs into society has taken a big toll as well. I think that many of them [boomers] toyed with it and then went off it and are now serious citizens with families and everything else. But there is some that ruin their lives.
05:31
SM: Bringing up some of these issues that divorce out in California ̶ 50 percent of people getting married get divorced. Yeah, almost 50 percent in our society are getting divorced. Certainly there was drug use during that period, but we see a tremendous rise of drugs now in our high schools and colleges. These are the sons and daughters of boomers. You have made a comment that you did not think that a lot of the problems in society today were based on the boomers. But you raised these issues.
06:02
JB: Right. I do not think they caused it, they lived through it. I do not think the boomers caused a lot of that. I mean, some of them caused drug use. Yeah. But they certainly did not cause the need for, for two parents to work. That was caused by cost of living [unintelligible], right? You may be right to a degree that they have a different attitude than their parents did, I am talking about the boomers now. About marriage, as I said, about family. And they, their generation, you know, brought about a lot of changes in the society and I think there are a lot of good people in the movement. I do not think they are trying to mess things up or anything like that. I think they are trying to live their lives. And they became more open. It was inevitable that there are a lot of people in bad marriages and it made sense that they get out of a bad marriage. While in my generation, they would stay in a bad marriage. And I am not an advocate of divorce. I am not. I can see there are times when divorce is better for everyone concerned. So now you got into, you know, the syndrome of not staying married or not even getting married. And still they have children. And the children pay the price for that.
07:56
SM: Yeah, it is just a general question. Based on everything you have been saying here and the questions I have been asking so far, looking at 1996 we could say that the boomers ̶ which is basically sixty-five million people who were born between 1946 to 1964. That is the category that uses that. That their impact is positive or negative in America. Too early to tell?
08:25
JB: I think it is early to tell. I think that for me, they are only 22 years old now. They are just getting out of college [youngest boomers, born in 1964, were thirty-two years old at the time of this interview]. I think that I do not know how to describe it exactly. But there are a lot of social problems about gangs. We were talking about this generation. We thought we were thinking that it was middle income people. Gangs are really a problem in the blighted areas, in the slums, they are a big social problem for communities. And so to answer your question, I think it is mixed. I think that some in that generation are causing more problems than prior generations and others are responsible people. I would not blame the whole generation, everybody in that generation, for problems that come along.
09:37
SM: We talked about the death of those three men, two of them that you knew quite well ̶ John and Robert Kennedy ̶ and Martin Luther King. I was like eleven, I think, when John Kennedy was killed. And it really affected me. It really did. Actually I was fourteen, excuse me. And then Bobby Kennedy and Dr. King, I was at SUNY Binghamton at the time that happened and was in a two month period of time.
09:47
JB: It was a real blow.
10:07
SM: When you read the literature on the (19)60s and early (19)70s, only 15 percent of the people were really involved in protest or activism of any kind. 85 percent went along with their normal daily activities. As the years progressed, what effects did those three deaths have on not only that 15 percent, but everyone ̶ whether it be the conscious or the subconscious? I know you were close to John and Robert Kennedy, and their deaths affected you personally. But what about the boomers of my era, like your children? What effect did these assassinations have on them as they grew older, raised families and tried to get involved in things?
10:52
JB: A lot of people lost hope for the future. It was still America, but they were worried about America being a place where leaders can be assassinated. They were worried about the fact that people that stand for something can be killed off. And then there was really no one that took their place in the eyes of that generation. They became discouraged, and I think a lot of them lost interest in voting and participating in government. While under John Kennedy, for example, he started the Peace Corps. He brought a lot of young people into government, he got people enthusiastic about the future of our country. And then when he was shot, and then followed by Bobby, it was like, people just lost hope. It took a long time to try to turn people around. It will never come around to the way it was; the enthusiasm, the thrill of being in one of those campaigns and that people still felt it is a great country and they wanted to do things to help make it better.
12:13
SM: Around the same time, trust in leadership [unintelligible].
12:21
JB: The Nixon Watergate stuff, people lost trust in their leaders and their government. The good guys were killed off and the bad guys were in charge. I think that is probably one of the reasons that some of them [boomers] really started having an attitude. They did not give a damn. They got into things they should not have.
12:50
SM: This is kind of a side note question, but if Bobby had lived, do you think he would have won it?
12:57
JB: I think he would have, yeah. I was involved in it. I was running the New York State campaign and we started when he first announced he was running against LBJ [Lyndon B. Johnson] ̶ LBJ was still campaigning at that point. It was around St. Patty's Day, in March. We started polling in New York State and it was all against him within the Democratic Party. We had been polling just Democrats for the primary. But as time went on, it began changing, changing, changing. LBJ dropped out and McCarthy was in the picture. But Bobby was emerging as a victor in New York. He had won in California before he was killed. It was a similar situation there. He had the emphasis, you know, going for him. We will never know really, but I think he could have pulled it off and I think he would have won.
13:57
SM: I think one of the greatest speeches I ever heard was an impromptu one Bobby gave in Indianapolis after Martin Luther King was killed.
14:04
JB: Oh, yeah, I remember that very well.
14:07
SM: And of course you see it when you go to Washington. What really amazes me, and I have been reading a lot of history, is that the Bobby Kennedy we saw on those committees early on, in the (19)50s, is not the same Bobby Kennedy we saw in (19)68.
14:22
JB: Absolutely. He did a [unintelligible] to become much more compassionate, more liberal minded than he was in those days. And what he said in Indianapolis to a black audience which he gathered in a black neighborhood. "Sorry, my brother was killed by a white man." It was an important thing to say.
14:58
SM: He knew that it was a dangerous area. Skellington right? Yeah.
15:04
JB: So I think that people who got into drugs experimentally, thinking it is just a temporary thing in their lives. You know, some of them did not realize how these drugs can hook them, how they can become addicted. And so I think we had more addiction problems than we did later on. The statistics show there is less kids in high school trying drugs than there used to be. But we still have a lot of drug activity here. And a lot more arrests recently that are bigger. We had a big arrest yesterday. We had another big trial a month ago, which showed that this one drug dealer made millions of dollars right here in Binghamton and Broome County. Somebody's using the drugs. It was not just the one hundred or two hundred people they complain about who moved up from New York City. Got to be thousands of people using drugs here. And destroying lives right in the middle class, in the upper classes. They caught a guy selling drugs in front of Vestal High School not too long ago. Right in front of the school. This is really bad. Terrible. So, It is an ongoing problem for the children of the boomers and the boomers participated, many of them in the drug scene, but many of them survived and straightened out their lives pretty well.
16:45
SM: So my next question is, what can today's generation of youth learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? This question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s is a period of activism, drugs and single minded issues. So many of the same issues remain. There are new ones and the lessons of the past are either not taught in schools or never discussed between parents and today's generation. Please give your thoughts on the issues in boomer's lives and how they can have an impact on students' lives today.
17:20
JB: I think they could do a lot to help curtail drug use. They can tell their experience, they could tell them first hand and even if not themselves than somebody they knew, who had a real problem and that by flirting with drugs, they were only going to get into trouble. And I think they could do more of that and talk to their children. I know when I was the Democratic State Chairman, I was out of town a lot. And I regret it, but I was not around my kids as much as I should have been. I was around them all weekend every weekend. You know, I did not know what they were doing or where they were going. We had a big family, hard to keep track of everybody. So I think they owe it to their kids to make sure that they understand the dire consequences of drug use and not to experiment with them just for a lark. Alcohol use is also bad. It is an addictive chemical just like other drugs. They could set examples by not drinking in front of them or using pot or whatever they might like to use and train them along that way. I think the example is more effective. Sometimes parents say do not do what I do, do what I say. Parents say, do not do this and do not do that and then they do it themselves. You know, like, a kid comes home from using drugs and a drunken father balls them out. It does not really have a lot of impact, you know what I mean? But I think that they can set an example for their kids. This is one thing they can do for them that will be very useful. I know. I never drank, I did years ago before we were married. And kids now tell me that it meant a lot to them that I did not drink. Neither my wife nor I drank.
19:46
SM: You have kids that are boomers who have their own kids. They may also be getting kids ready to go to college or something down the road. What can you say about communicating and not being around your kids, but then spending quality time on weekends? What are your children teaching their kids, and what are they telling them about the experiences that they went through when they were young? What are boomers sharing with today's young people about Bobby Kennedy, Dr. King, John Kennedy, the civil rights movement, protests against Vietnam, the women's movement, the environmental movement? Do you think there is a sharing going on between boomers and their kids?
20:40
JB: I do not know. That is a good question. I think they should. They accomplished a lot. I think they are responsible for the end of the Vietnam War. And I think that work they have done on the environment has helped a lot. Legislators and chief executives do not propose or pass laws that are not popular. By demonstrating the need for environmental laws that a lot of people support, those laws came into being. I think that the women's movement is another example. One ̶ I think that they made a lot of progress. Certainly the civil rights movement has made a lot of progress. It still has a long way to go. If you go back to when I was a kid, I did not even think about it, you know? We just regarded black kids in school as somebody you would say hello to, but never see outside of school. They were never in fraternities. In those days we had fraternities in Binghamton Central High School. Some would not take Catholics, some took Catholics but would not take Jews, and there was one just for Jews. The black kids were like part of the furniture, I mean, they were not anything in the social structure of the student body. As I changed a lot now, much better. But from those days, you know, back in the (19)30s, when I was growing up, until now there has been a big change. There is still a lot of racial hatred and racial problems in society. These kids can be inspired to do something about it by the boomers. The boomers are the ones that demonstrated ̶ did you say that only like 15 percent demonstrated, I did not realize it was that low a figure. Obviously, there were some that did not agree with what the demonstrators were doing.
23:05
SM: The "hard hats" in New York.
23:08
JB: No, I mean, among the boomers themselves, those that did not see eye-to-eye with the protesters.
23:12
SM: The premise is out there, it is very easy now to bash the boomers and blame everything on them. And I am trying to find out if, you know, not based on my feelings, but on other people's feelings, if there is some validity to that charge, or if it is ridiculous. For example, people that were involved in the civil rights movement and people that were involved in the protests against the Vietnam War in the (19)60s ̶ especially in the civil rights movement ̶ are still supportive of affirmative action at universities. And they are being attacked for taking over universities. The people that are involved in these causes had a passion and that passion continues. A lot of young people today will look at boomers and say that was something from the past. But the issues are still the same. I am concerned that that is what is happening today. When I go down to the Vietnam Memorial, and I keep hearing over and over again, the charge against Bill Clinton that he protested against the Vietnam War in Russia when he was over there. And people cannot forgive him for that. So it is like, what is this? Everything seems to come back to the boomers in trouble.
24:37
JB: There were people who went to Vietnam, you know, and served over there, and were killed there; and some may still be there. Many of them have always been disappointed that they were not regarded as the heroes that the guys from World War II were. Yet they only did what they were supposed to do. They were drafted, most of them. They went where they were told to go, they did what they were supposed to do. But they were not regarded as heroes like the veterans of World War II.
25:17
SM: I can remember when I was a SUNY student, and my dad was getting gas at one of the gas stations near Broome Tech. And this guy drove up in a car that had an American flag on the side. Well, at that period of time, people that were putting a flag on the car, [were making a statement] I am a better American than you are.
25:34
JB: The right wingers.
25:34
SM: Yes. I just about flipped out, but I did not do anything. I remained calm. But I said “No.” Nowadays, it is okay. How different society is.
25:50
JB: Republicans regarded themselves as more patriotic than the Democrats. The Democrats were more associated with the hippies, the women's movement, the anti-war movement, all that. Conservative people want to stop time, to just freeze time. It does not happen, everything changes. You can never go back to the way it was.
26:26
SM: If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, describe the qualities you most admired in them? Just a couple of things.
26:38
JB: Well, I admired many in the boomer generation for what they believe. They put aside traditions that were in their way. [garbled] I was the State Democratic Chairman when the legislature had the eighteen year old vote coming up. I worked hard, with a lot of others, to get that passed through the legislature. So we have an eighteen year old vote. We got the eighteen year old vote, but not enough of them voted.
27:35
SM: What year was that? 1968?
27:38
JB: Late (19)60s, right? Certainly ever since then, it has been that way. There are a lot of kids that turn eighteen, some are still in high school. They were just coming out, they first vote, they were just graduating that year.
28:02
SM: The young people wanted that vote. The slogan of the boomers was: "We are old enough to go to war, we should be old enough to vote." And they got the vote. I think (19)68 was the first year ̶ Humphry against Nixon. Now, not only do not they vote, but their kids do not vote.
28:30
JB: I think the kids lost hope at right around the same time. The assassinations, and then Nixon came along and had Watergate, people lost faith in government. And they still have lost faith in government. A lot of people do not trust government, even in the right wing. You got these nuts that form militias around the places. They do not trust the government. I think that is an extreme case. But there are people that do not like the government, they do not trust the government. And they do not bother voting. They do not think voting means anything. They do not think it is going to change their life, which is too bad. They think it is not going to change their life any, which is too bad. It can definitely change their life.
29:26
SM: That old slogan around the world that people have died to vote. Here they have it, and are not doing it.
29:35
JB: Look what happened in South Africa a couple of years ago. The first vote that these black people had, they stood in line seven, eight hours in the hot sun to cast their vote. And here, you do not have to do that. You do not even bother voting. It is too bad.
29:56
SM: This question might be repetitive, but have you changed your opinion on the youth of the (19)60s over the last twenty five years, the opinion that you had in politics, as mayor, and then today?
30:07
JB: Change my opinion of them? Well, they have grown and they have matured and they are not the same. So it is hard to say. I have read where some of the outstanding radicals of the (19)60s became, you know, sort of middle ground or conservative adults. Now, I think that has happened to a lot of them. I did not really change my mind about them. It ̶ I just watched them change.
30:53
SM: My generation, especially in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, believed that we are the most unique generation in American history. we are going to change the world, we are going to make things better.
31:05
JB: Right.
31:06
SM: Like it has never been the Age of Aquarius. Listen to the music of that era. Anyway, so what is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation?
32:22
JB: Oh, well, I guess the lasting legacy is that they survived a tumultuous time in our history. They participated in the civil rights movement, the women's movement, and the anti-war movement. Democracy still works. I guess that is about all I can think of. They still have time to go, to do more for their country before they get to the senior citizens.
33:10
SM: What role, if any, does activism in the boomer generation penetrate into the lives of their children, Generation X?
33:22
JB: You mean in terms of there being people that volunteer and do things like that?
33:27
SM: The whole activist mentality, being change agents for society.
33:37
JB: To what degree does it affect their next generation? Well, there is a drop off, but I think it does affect it. People tend to carry on the tradition of their parents many times, especially when it comes to things of importance like that; especially toward the things that are significant. My kids are all Liberal Democrats. They think it is the only logical way to be. I think I will pass that on to their kids. I think others will do the same thing as Republicans. I know there are some that drop off. I know I have seen kids who are Republicans and their fathers are Democrats, and vice versa. But they are in the minority. You would think that kids would know from day one. In my generation, I was very much aware of what Roosevelt did for our country in terms of all the New Deal legislation and New Deal reforms and the job creating things that he did. That brought me closer to the Democratic Party than just the fact that my parents were Democrats. But my children do not know, and certainly my grandchildren will not know where social security came from. They will not be that much attached to the Democratic Party as I was because of social security or unemployment insurance, and so many other things. I think there is a certain drop off of fidelity to a party as each generation comes along and is more and more independent in their thinking.
34:37
SM: That is good! I want to ask this question again because I think we may have missed it. Do you think it is possible to heal within the generation where differences in positions taken were so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care?
36:09
JB: I think we should try to continue in the healing process. I think, as you mentioned earlier, that the Vietnam Memorial in Washington and other activities can be of help to start the healing process for Vietnam veterans. They feel better about the fact that the country regards them highly, and they were doing what they did for patriotic reasons. Other than the Vietnam Veterans, I think that there should be healing. Some of us naturally know the old saying "time heals all wounds." People that were mad at people who were against the war and people that were mad at people who supported the war have now lived and worked together for a couple of decades. I think they see that the other side is not all that bad, that they are good people. They may still disagree, but they come together, they live in a community together, and they live in our country together. I think the healing process takes place between individuals.
37:16
SM: To take off on that, when we met with Senator Muskie he said that the Civil War generation went to their graves filled with hatred for the South, or the North despite the efforts of these reunions in Gettysburg and that Reconstruction was not a good era. I personally go to the Vietnam Memorial celebrations and Veterans Day in Washington these last couple of years, and I have seen the things that they are wearing on their jackets. This is supposed to be a non-political entity. The Wall [the Vietnam War Memorial] was built to be a non-political entity in honor of those who served and died for their country. Yet you see all these political statements being worn on jackets and jerseys of Jane Fonda Bitch, and comments about Bill Clinton. They had Peter Arnett there this past year.
38:33
JB: He went behind the lines in Iraq, right?
38:37
SM: Right. I heard some Vietnam veterans saying "Why did I come to hear this guy because he wrote bad, terrible things about us?" They are against the reporters. I am wondering how much healing is really taking place. My main concern is, is the boomer generation really going to heal? Or are they going to go to their graves with bitterness?
39:03
JB: I think some individuals are going to go to their graves with bitterness, but I think overall there will be more healing than not. I do not know if you know Tim Grippen, he is our county executive. He had part of his face blown away in Vietnam. It took a long time for plastic surgeons and others to repair his face. His face is, you can tell what happened. He has been very active with the Vietnam Veterans. Here is a guy that came back and went to graduate school at Syracuse University studying public administration. Now he is the county executive, and he has no bad feelings; and there a lot of them. He is in touch with all the Vietnam veterans in Broome County. He is a role model for them. There are people out there like that, that do not say Jane Fonda Bitch. He is a Democrat and a supporter of Bill Clinton. It might be a good idea if you could talk to him some time.
40:07
SM: What is his name?
40:17
JB: Tim Grippen-- G R I P P E N. He is the County Executive of Broome County. [garbled] I think that some diehards will never change. But there are those who, as time goes on, they will see someone that they like who sees things differently. They will soften up a bit.
40:42
SM: I want to say that, for example, during my many trips to the Wall, I attended several ceremonies with veterans in the audience. They hate Bill Clinton, they hate Jane Fonda, and they hate those who protested the war and never gave veterans the royal welcome on their return to the mainland. The Wall has helped [garbled], but the hate remains for those on the other side. [garbled]
41:19
JB: In fact, there is a replica of that Wall they bring around to different communities. It is smaller in size. They had one here for a week. All kinds of people went down and saw it. And I felt that there was a feeling like there is a lot of people like me who were against the war, but who still feel that those guys did a job for us and they were doing it for their country. We cannot blame them for something that they had nothing to do with. They are not responsible for it, and I think they should be honored. There are a lot of people that feel that way. I do not think that there is going to be any healing. I think among some people, that is true, but I do not think it is a majority.
41:50
SM: That is right. Do you think we will ever have trust for elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate?
42:19
JB: Well, I do not know. I think that is one of the big problems Bill Clinton is having right now. Whitewater and all the related investigations are going on about his character and his wife's character. Even if he wins the election, which I think he will, People may not regard him as they would George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. Although in his day, Lincoln was not as popular as he is now; he had a lot of detractors. Now we look at him like a saint. I am a follower of Abraham Lincoln [garbled] but there were people then that did not think he was a saint. Thomas Jefferson had a lot of people that hated his guts. I do not know about Washington. He was a war hero, so maybe he enjoyed a better reputation with the public of his day. You know, when Harry Truman left office, he was quite unpopular. He had fired MacArthur who was a big war hero. [garbled] Over a period of time, while he was still living, but as former president, he gained back his popularity by far. He was very popular towards the end of his time. So, you never know about that.
44:02
SM: How did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that and future generations?
44:08
JB: I think protesters against the war helped those of us who were Democratic officials come around to seeing their point of view. We started out like, he is the elected president and he wants us in there and we are going to support our president. Finally, after seeing how sincere and how widespread their [the protesters] feelings were, we could understand their point of view. I supported it.
44:52
SM: What did you think at the time when that was happening?
45:04
JB: In my position as Democratic State Chairman, we had people for the war and people against the war. Mccarthyites were against it early on, even before Bobby Kennedy came out against it. I was trying to hold the party together. I did not take a position on it because I thought that it was a unique situation, position, to be in. But I did after Bobby Kennedy came on and then I got to know Al Lowenstein, leader of the group, and others. I did come out against the war. We had to elect Kennedy President and I was the one that was like the mediator between warring sides and all that sort of thing within the party. Yeah.
45:59
SM: At that time when you saw some of the politicians changing the lives of young people. And then you eventually came on that side yourself. Had this ever happened before in American history that a generation of youth had this kind of impact?
46:17
JB: I think there have been protests before, but not all young people. Young people really brought this about.
46:28
SM: When the best history books are written about the growing up years of the boomers, say twenty-five from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers? They are just reaching fifty now. When their history books are written, and the best history books are written fifty years after an event ̶ when the best history books on the growing up years for the boomers, say twenty-five to fifty years from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers, then?
47:00
JB: Well, I think their generation, as we mentioned a little while ago, was the main force behind getting the war stopped. They were the main force of getting Lyndon Johnson to drop out of the race for re-election. There was turmoil going on in the country, much of it caused by that generation. I was the chairman of the New York State delegation at the Democratic Convention (1968), which then was the largest delegation in the country. Then we were larger than California. That was a tumultuous time in Chicago. Outside there were all sorts of demonstrations going on. At one point half my delegation was in jail. We had a candlelight parade that was not supposed to go over a line the police drew, they went over the line, and they all got thrown in jail. Yeah, (19)68. All sorts of things happened that really reflected what was going on in the country, much more than the Republican Convention, which was just an orchestrated political rally. But my point is that the boomer generation was responsible for that. If they had not had the guts to do it, it would not have been done. I do not think any political leader could have been comfortable out there without their support as a political leader on their side ̶ and maybe not gotten any votes without their support.
48:06
SM: (19)68, right? Last question here. Youth believed they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)60s and (19)70s ̶ Vietnam, draft, civil rights legislation, nonviolent protests, multiple movements ̶̶ in other words, a sense of empowerment. Why is society resisting this today? And why, in your own words, do the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society, in some respects, less desire and seeing less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this in this question?
49:28
JB: No, no, I think you are right. It is hard to say why they feel that way, talking about the X generation, right? I do not know, they do not seem to relate, that is why I think the boomer generation has to tell them what happened and make it more personal to them. There are a couple of movies they can see, like "Born on the Fourth of July," an Oliver Stone movie and things like that were really very powerful and would be real good for the next generation to see. But I do not know why, as I say, there is a fall off of enthusiasm with each generation for a given cause. They have done that, they have fallen off. Maybe they need a new cause? Maybe they need something to happen to bring them all together to fight for a cause? Because the fight itself is exciting, the fight itself gives them a lot of spirit and a lot of dedication.
50:21
SM: That is what so many young people tell me, that there is no cause.
50:59
JB: So writing this book, when do you finish with your interviews?
51:03
SM: Actually it is going to probably be about eighteen months of interviews, because I work full time and I have not been able to take time off from work and we take a lot of trips to Washington.
51:13
JB: And you will have to analyze all the interviews.
51:15
SM: Yeah, what I am going to do is ̶
51:20
JB: And computerize some of it? Transcribe them and a secretary I am going to hire to type the things. Basically going to mostly be verbatim from the interviews so that I am not being judgmental. I want the people who read them to make their decisions. Yeah.
51:33
SM: My goal was to interview three hundred people. That is a lot.
51:37
JB: That is a lot, yeah ̶
51:39
SM: And by three hundred people, it could be two hundred interviews. I can have ten Vietnam veterans in a room. But in the end, I hope that I can do something to add to the discussion because I am real concerned. I have been in universities now for seventeen years and I am trying to analyze what the boomers have done, and what their influence has been myself. And I want to find out more.
51:45
JB: Oh, I get you.
52:12
SM: I do want to, just on these names that got cut out here, I did write some notes. Just read and respond on a couple of these names if you can. Jane Fonda.
52:23
JB: She has a lot of courage and integrity. She knew she would be very unpopular for what she did. But I think she, I think her meaning was to help her country and not the opposite as some people claim. She wanted to help her country by getting it out of the war.
52:43
SM: And then Tom Hayden.
52:50
JB: Tom Hayden? I think he looks good. He has been elected many times out of the California legislature, so he has a constituency. He was a rabble rouser in the minds of some people. As you mentioned he has come to Chicago, this time as a delegate instead of a protester. I think a lot of people that protested the war, who were regarded at that time as troublemakers are now regarded as the guys who were on the right side ̶ including the President [Bill Clinton].
53:24
SM: Lyndon Johnson.
53:28
JB: Lyndon Johnson, I said, except for the war. I mean, his effect on .generation was the war, the main thing was the war. And they scorned him for it. But except for the war, If you could set that aside, he had a marvelous record of social legislation.
53:46
SM: And Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy.
53:48
JB: Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy were the most inspirational leaders we have ever had in my lifetime. They brought hope to young people and stood for the good things in government. They tried to get young people involved in the government and bring them into working in the government and doing good things for their country. And they brought the tragic, patriotic feelings to people.
54:18
SM: And Richard Nixon and Timothy Leary.
54:21
JB: Well, Richard Nixon was a pitiful case. He was a brilliant man in some respects. He was very paranoid, and I think he was a mean spirited guy in many, many ways. In some ways he did some good things as president, but overshadowed by Watergate, by his lying to the public. Timothy Leary I think was a nut case and a very bad influence. As a Harvard professor, that brings some prestige to just that title. He did have an effect on a lot of young people. He got a lot of young people into the habit of drug selling and that the use of drugs is good for them and the wonderful experience, they should do it. I do not know how many lives he ruined, but he must have ruined some. It was very bad for our country.
55:14
SM: And then the last three names ̶ Dr. King, George McGovern, and Daniel Ellsberg.
55:22
JB: Martin Luther King was an inspirational leader for all people of all colors, because he did some very difficult, almost impossible things. And he brought about these things in a nonviolent way. He preached nonviolence just like Mahatma Gandhi in India, like Jesus Christ did. I mean, he saw what was wrong, he wanted to right it, but he wanted to right it without any physical harm to anybody. And I think that made him a great, great American. Who is the next one named? George McGovern, a very decent man, was a good leader, was with a great senator. He was very concerned about hunger and work done on hunger within America for many years in the Senate. I think he got a bum rap when he ran for president. He was running against Nixon, I think. He was perceived by the public as sort of like involved with the hippies and the left wing and that he was not a solid guy. He was a very solid guy. Daniel Ellsberg was a man of principle and n he did what he thought was right.
56:45
SM: Senator (Eugene) McCarthy?
56:45
JB: Senator McCarthy was a man of principle. I think he had some guts to do what he did. I do not think it was a personable guy, but that is just a personal thing.
57:01
SM: Any final thoughts you want to say at all?
57:04
JB: I have said enough I think. It was an interesting era to play some role, a lot of history there, you know. We had some high spots and low spots. The lowest of course for me was when Robert Kennedy was assassinated.
57:22
SM: Is Allard Lowenstein buried in an unmarked grave between Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy at Arlington. I heard that he was.,
57:31
JB: I never knew that. I do not know where he is buried.
57:35
SM: I was in California when he was shot by one of his friends.
57:40
JB: There was a guy with all sorts of energy, I will tell you. I worked for him to win for Congress. He ran in Brooklyn against an old guy named John Rooney who was part of the Democratic establishment in Brooklyn. He had been in Congress for years, the chairman of some important committee. Anyway, I worked for Al, much to the disdain of Lee Esposito, who was the Brooklyn leader at the time and lost that election. He did go to Congress, I think from another district out in Long Island for one term. He [Esposito] came back to Brooklyn, got beat out there the second time. I knew his wife, I knew him. A very interesting guy.
58:31
SM: [garbled]
58:43
JB: Al Lowenstein had a way of organizing students better than anyone I ever heard of. He was a hero on the campuses. He knew how to get things done.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with John Burns
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Burns, John J., 1921-2004 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Politicians--United States--New York; Democratic Party (N.Y.); Burns, John J., 1921-2004--Interviews
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John J. Burns (1921-2004) was the New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993.
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1996
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.181
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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59:14
-
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2011-08-04
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Mike Roselle
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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128:16
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activism career."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activist career.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Christianity; Saigon; Victims of War; Forgiveness; Vietnam Memorial; Suffering; UNESCO; Tragedy of War; Terrorism; Love; Hope; Peace; Kindness."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Christianity; Saigon; Victims of War; Forgiveness; Vietnam Memorial; Suffering; UNESCO; Tragedy of War; Terrorism; Love; Hope; Peace; Kindness.</span>
Subject LCSH
Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Roselle, Mike--Interviews
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Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Mike Roselle
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Roselle, Mike ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
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Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Roselle, Mike--Interviews
Description
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Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activist career.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2011-08-04
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.155a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.155b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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128:16
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b3335531ebd7c225a3fccc6ac5005c7c
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Roosevelt Johnson
Duration
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160:18
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Roosevelt Johnson was a psychologist, counselor, educator and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana. Dr. Johson died in 2015."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15359,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson (d. 2015) was a psychologist, counselor, educator, and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC, and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D. at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Post civil rights; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Activism; Generation X; Kent State; Vietnam War; Black Panthers; Vietnam Memorial."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Post civil rights; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Activism; Generation X; Kent State; Vietnam War; Black Panthers; Vietnam Memorial.</span>
Subject LCSH
Psychologists; College teachers; Johnson, Roosevelt--Interviews
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Dr. Roosevelt Johnson
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: Not dated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:06
SM: Got to keep double checking this too to make sure this is working. Dr. Johnson, thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to meet with me today. What I am going to try to do here is asked a specific group of questions and these questions have also been asked to other interviewees. Some of these questions also might look like they are repetitive. But the questions are asked, [audio cuts] certainly, and hopefully, if you have already mentioned something earlier, then we move on to the next question. But the boomer generation and the people the (19)60s and the early (19)70s have often are [audio cuts] that during this juncture in time, often being criticized by conservatives, by people along Christian coalition and other groups as being the reason why we are having problems in today's society. You hear it all the time on the news, even some of the so-called moderate Democrats, when they are looking at the issues of the breakup of the American family, the increase the divorce rate, the drug, the drug problems in American society, the uncivil dialogue sometimes that happens between groups, a lack of listening between groups. Sometimes people are trying to put this all into a capsule and going right back to that (19)60s and early (19)70s. And it was because of that generation, and how they were reared and how they acted, is now they have transferred into, this into their kids, and could you comment on whether that is a fair accusation toward the generation of boomers made up of 60 million people?
01:35
RJ: I am always I am always cautious about stereotypical and gross generalizations in terms of a generation. However, I do think that there are certain prevailing motifs, cultural motifs that go on, there is no question about it. If we look at the major forces in during that era of say, post-Civil Rights, and then after the post-Civil Rights and the switch, in terms of say, our moving to political impetus, and they end the orientation, and the theories that have gone on- political orientation and theories that have gone along with the subsequent election of Richard Nixon, which tended to [inaudible] in my judgment signaled the prelude to the switch to conservative. So then, I think that we got some gradations there in terms of say, there are some in terms of say some of the people who have emerged from the (19)60s, the post-Civil Rights Era, and also the political shift to conservativism, I am not so sure it is almost 33 and a third, okay, so if you really think about it that way, it is almost 33 and a third. And then I guess, the fourth estate, and that is the medium, with respect to the impact that is has had, and increasing the impact that it has had specifically during that period of time, so then it, the history is fascinating. And I am not so sure, I am willing to say that there is a large core, is according to which societal institution that you are looking at, at any given time, but I think there is a, if you may, an overarching type of influence, and an overarching type of motif, and, and collective thought. So, we got to, we got a, we got a kind of a universal cognition that is going on, i.e. let us go back to the impact of the Fourth Estate in terms of the media, and the fact that the satellite was put us up there. And then CNN became such a potent force, what I see as a core lessons of perspective, even if you go beyond the borders of the United States, about certain issues that are happening all over the world, by virtue of the cyberspace and so forth, which is again, the link, I guess you could say is that is that the Civil Rights, post-Civil Rights and then the era of conservativism, and then what you have that in fact, keeps all of this in a network, is the cyberspace. And with respect to the fact that everybody is seeing the same type of the daily account of present history being recorded, it is definitely influencing how people are thinking. So the media and the people who are writing for the media, in my judgment, are the, are people who have found, who themselves are part of- who are boomers, and therefore they come from that perspective, in terms of their cognitions. There have beliefs about certain things, their worldview, their worldviews, are have, they have to- if we accept that socialization is a real process, and I believe it is- they have an insight, say, like, be influenced by what has happened to them in their nurturance years, that is a part of their identity. So consequently, they are constantly referring back to what they have learned to be reality, their constructive reality is in fact are very similar, but I think that you will still find that is not a discrete dichotomous either-or in terms of is the boomers against the, not being the boomers. There are people within the boomer generation who are very conservative, people within the boomer generation who are in fact modern in terms of their political views, ethical and moral perspectives and so forth. And there are people who are extremely liberal. Okay, so then we got, I think this gradation.
05:58
SM: Make sure that my tape here it is. In fact, because it broke, he has invited me over to his house before the Congress starts again.
06:07
RJ: Okay.
06:07
SM: Because I have gotten to know him. I- most of my friends are liberals, but [laughter] Congressman Weldon, and Senator Fred Thompson, the two that I really, I really like those two. So anyways, as a take-off of that question, what do you feel has been the impact of boomers on America? Has the impact in your eyes been positive or negative? Or is it too early to say what that impact is?
06:33
RJ: First, you have, I have to accept the position that is only positive and negative. And that, again, takes us to the dichotomous thinking, which is fueling, I think, psychologically, societal psychology, if you may, I think that is probably keeping the momentum more exaggerated than it really is. Again, I see gradations, I look for gradations. I do not look for discrete categories of the dichotomy of either all or nothing. And that is, that is a part of democracy. So democracy, the life blood, as Seymour Martin Lipset said, of democracy is conflict. So, then it definitely keeps the conflict going, but I do not know if it, in fact, gets into a continual healing process at the psychological level. Now, I also think that we cannot, in fact address this question you know, in terms of gain, I am saying before I could really respond to whether it is positive or negative, I had to work it through, because I also am very much aware that the conflict, and the either-or- liberal or conservative, negative or anti-positive- is being, is economically driven, is driven by the profit motive. We cannot incite leave that out of our society, that negative news is, in fact, it is a very, it sells very well, positive news obviously does not sell very well, because there is not any one of the leading newspapers in in the world that reports positive news, people immediately go to what is the most heinous that they can find. So then what I think is happening is that the econ- that the political economy has co-opted people into making us believe that we have an issue, I will say negative and positive, I think without a doubt, if you look at a certain category, and that is the demise of the infrastructure within the United States, I do believe- and by that I mean, the highways, the cities, the universities that are in fact, say getting ready for the babies of the boomers, they are now beginning to say that we cannot build new facilities, but we will be able to bring the people on campus and then offer them course by computer, and so forth out of their dorm rooms and so forth or allow them to take it at home, through for example, the internet and so forth and putting up let us say, modems on the campus, around the campus, even exterior modems and things of this nature where people can work on a site. Now, if you take a look at that, and if you hold on nostalgically to what once was, in terms of the negative impact, the negative impact is the meaning that we are giving to it. If, for example, we are saying that we think that the classroom should be a-whereby there is a bonding between the professor and the youngsters or the professors and the graduate students- I do believe that should occur. But now if you think about the boomers being driven by the profit motive, which is you know, with a common vernacular and the patois, the bottom line, cut to the chase all of this language that in fact being developed by various and sundry economic systems, you say, macro and economically, the macroeconomic, the NSA and micro economic terminology that are used for social situation. So, people are being reduced in terms of downsides and outsides and read, outsourcing and things of this nature, the boomers by virtue of their being in leadership role, they have now begun to-to use these paradigms to deal with people. Okay? Now, if these paradigms continue to erode the infrastructure, and especially the moralistic infrastructure of the universal values, then we got to say it is negative. But when we in fact, say, like, take a look at that they can began to cause people, the pendulum to swing back toward the center, and people, to the extent can recognize that the boomers were the impetus for seeing swinging back toward the center, then probably serendipitously, the boomers are serving us a purpose to gain our right frame of mind on this, starting a new collective dialogue within our collective heads. Is this good? We are now beginning to ask these questions.
11:07
SM: This leads into my next question, because now we are talking about the children of boomers, which are, which are already on college campuses. And we will be [inaudible], you talk about the differences within the boomers, you know, we talked about the classification for (19)46 to (19)64, boomers. Well, I see even within the university when I am working with administrators who were still classified as boomers, they have not the [inaudible] knowledge of the impact of the Civil Rights movement, or what the war was all about back then, because they were a little bit too young. So, I sense that there is even strong divisions, like you said, there is conservatives and liberals. There is-
11:42
RJ: Within the boomers.
11:43
SM: Yeah. And the fact is that, you know, it is hard to classify over an 18-year period that these are the boomers, which is what society says we are doing something right. But can today- can today's generation learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? So this question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s, as a period of activism, a period that were students, where people got [inaudible] and single minded issues, because there were big issues then. A lot of big issues where young people can get involved in. So many of these same issues remain, there are new ones. And the lessons of the past are either not taught in the schools or never discussed between the parents, which is the boomer parent and the kid. Please give your thoughts on the issues and boomers lives and how they can have an impact on students today. And I say this only because I, in my working relationship with students, I see two distinct directions that they go in terms of people of my age. boomers. Number one, they look upon that period as an era of nostalgia, saying, "I wish I could have lived them. It was such an exciting time. I mean, people were involved in Civil Rights movement, they were involved in the protests against the war, the environmental movement, women's liberation came about all but all of it seems like the movements and Native American movement, all of them seem to be around [inaudible] around the time when you were young, when you were in college, I wish I could live there." And others the other extreme, where students will say, “I am sick of hearing it, you are living in us nostalgic period. This is (19)96. It is not (19)68 or (19)69 anymore. And so, I am tired of hearing about it, we have our own lives, we have our own issues, but then we do not have any big issues, but I want to get a job I want to get through school." And so, they do not have the big issues. But they do have their own individual issues, which is getting, getting a degree and getting a job. And in some respects, we cannot always talk about all the today's young people that are going to college there is a lot of them going to trade school. So, what I am trying to say is, are the boomers. And are the boomers really talking about their experiences with their kids? Are they sharing what they went through, are they sharing the- those important issues of that time? And some still remained today, but it is as if they do not among the other young people. So I just want to know what your thoughts are. If the boomers are really being good parents, are they sharing what transpired and they were young? And in some respects are the generation X really listening?
14:09
RJ: Well, I am not so sure that the boomers are being good parents if you use the criterion of the pre-boomer period, okay, anti-boomer period there, meaning that if I look at- and I am a boomer, all right- and if I look at the relationship that my mother and father had with me, it was very impersonal. Or if I look at what I know, my peers say, who themselves were not supposed to make it at Southern Illinois University, for example, first generation college students out of predominantly Black schools, high schools and so forth. Well we got there and found out that we had better for example, communication skills as far as the written word was concerned that many of our I would say white counterparts who came out of great high schools of Northern Illinois and Evanston, Illinois and places of this nature, right. So then it got around big university town. So our parents had prepared to pass the baton onto us. So then we got to look at the multicultural and the multiracial groups of boomers as well. But I fortunately have an opportunity through the last over almost 30 years of teaching both Black and whites and in terms of, say, graduate school, so I have had an opportunity to make some assessments on it. And from what I see is that at some point in time, and I like to think of this boomer generation as the transitory generation too, they have seen they saw the transition, African Americans, for example, from Jim Crowism to public accommodation, whereby they did not have it. So that they know what, for example, a Jim Crow is, and they know what it means to be excluded. So, they can recognize inclusion very, I mean, very well, and they can recognize exclusion very well. But the babies of the boomers are not capable of doing this, Black or white. It has been superficially presented to them through the media, it is always on the cusp, it is never as intense as it is because the boomers experienced this. Okay, the boomers experienced the transition of going from lack of civil rights to the civil rights struggle to the fact that Johnson signed the 1965 Civil Rights bill. Okay, so consequently, they saw the transition. And therefore, they are dealing with reality is based upon a cognitive set that they have seen before, during the process, and subsequent to the change. So then they deal with impasse, and for those who have not. And on the other side of the reality construction, the parents, some of them actually got further away from their anti-boomer parent- I will say morality, and they therefore began to have technocracy, technocracy and post modernity in terms of their perspective on how they deal with their children, okay, so then therefore, they-they stay a distance from them, they do not have interpersonal relationships with them, they allow the professional to do the rearing, they will allow the-the they allow the media to do the rearing, and the peer group to do the rea- the rearing. What I have found, therefore, is that on the other end of that, and in between, there is a group that is trying to hold on, which the children do resist, I see a lot of those in therapy, whether that child is in fact white or Black, whether that child is rich or poor, liberal or conservative, they try to resist that interpersonal, because, say involvement, where that person who was involved in the (19)60s tries to in fact interface and deal with and rear that child with that experiential input in there, some of the children do resist to that. Some of the children do not. Now, it is therefore, a matter I guess you can say, of the idiosyncratic way in which the children themselves- and that is what we got to be very careful about- and that is each-each individual has an idiosyncratic child does of the boomer, has an idiosyncratic meaning that he or she will get to the world. Now what we got to do is base that upon it is not right or wrong is rational, or is it is reality. So, we in fact, deal with, whether it is rational, what the child is doing and believing, or whether or not it is a reality, what the child is doing, then we do not worry so much about behavior as we do about cognition. And that is where we got to begin to get the focus. And that is, is the self-hurting a self-defeating in terms of some greater moralistic, cosmos type of perspective, or is it in fact a self-helping, we got to, in fact, make that decision discernment. I go back to the university and college, universities and colleges are in fact beginning to acknowledge that that was something good about the whole notion of the hands-on in theory into practice, because of the of the of the, I guess you can say, the mushrooming of outreach concepts in every major college and university. So then, in that regard, if you take a look, now, everybody has a community clinic, or everybody has some type of outreach program, or some thrust to outreach and reaching out into the community in their curricula. And in fact, the business world is now saying that they want to buy into that. So, then that is that activism of the six.
19:44
SM: Yeah, we have a social work chair, who has raised kids and one is going to Spelman College right now in Atlanta and one is going to Howard- they are twins, and she has one coming up. Her husband is a judge in Philadelphia, and he is also on the board of trustees and interviewees. This [inaudible] West Chester University. And I asked her point-blank last year is that a general discussion if she has ever sat down and talked to her kids about what it was like to be at Howard in the (19)60s where she graduated? She said, "No." She said, "My kids have got enough problems today, with the problems of drugs, dealing with all the other issues of the day, why burden them with what-what it was like when I was young," I am sure they discuss some things. But-
20:26
RJ: But the issue is, would it have been a burden that that actually is cultivating another type of skill. In my judgment, now see I do not see that as a burden, she is assuming that the child is a victim.
20:38
SM: I am going to go in depth with her on that, cause she does not realize I am going to bring this up when we-we are doing the interview. But she, she is the chair of our social work department, Mit Joyner. She is a dynamic professor whose students love her. And I she is one of my close friends at the school. But the fact that that statement really shocked me and so during the interview is not going to be the beginning, when I am going to just interject my question and do a little more definition there. Because she might explain why. Again, this might be repetitive here, if you were describe the youth in (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe the qualities you most admire and the qualities you least admire. If you were to just give a couple of adjectives of the things that you have most admired about them. What would they be and some of the things you least admire?
21:19
RJ: Their sense of dedication, they were dedicated. They were in fact, say like, inquisitive. They were courageous. Okay. They were well, they were willing to take risk. They were flexible. Most of them on college campus. And now you say the youth, if I was talking about high school, it would be an, and I was associated with an upward bound program, then but as well, and they were forward looking, they were without anxiety, they had a sense of hope. Okay, because subsequent to the Civil Right when the government provided to them a [inaudible] debt for hope, of hope, okay. And therefore, by virtue of the, even though the [inaudible] never really had the money, the concept was empower- psychologically empowering. The concept of, of the war on poverty was-was the was psychologically empowering. Now, I guess, therefore, the opposite would be some of the things I would have to say that in retrospect, retrospect, I would say that maybe that the youth were gullible, and maybe they went, because I believe that now, the amount of depression that I see, the amount of anxiety and type attacks and, and the amount of panic attacks that I see in people and so forth, and the fear that they have in trying to communicate with their children, all of these things probably instilled in them a lack of sense of hope, which is the origin of depression is when that when that hope turns into that is a loss, when one begins to lose that hope, then one begins to have a collective depression that is going on. Okay. So then, and when I- oh, and then I guess, in the [inaudible], this is in retrospect, I thought it was exciting then. But the freedom that they had in terms of not only in terms of relationships, and even very intimate relationship, the sense of a lack of commitment, though. However, the-the lack of commitment with respect to marriage, the lack of commitment with respect to promiscuous behavior, okay. And promiscuous thought patterns. Obviously, they were not that- I did not like the fact that they did get away from moralistic principles, I guess, it used to be that I did not like that about that group of children, which in fact then probably is causing, and in the, right now, some of the sense of the lack of identity that they obviously had when they thought about what they were doing. And now I believe that their parenting skills are actually fostering a sense of lack of identity in the babies of the boomers.
24:21
SM: Interesting observation, getting off the general questions here, because several people that I have spoken to have said when you talked about the boomer generation, especially in the area of the Civil Rights movement, you cannot even talk about boomers, they were too young. To talk, the fact that boomers were born (19)46 And a lot of the things that were in the Civil Rights movement in the mid (19)50s, late (19)50s, early (19)60s, they did not even- they were not old enough to really be involved, but certainly they were influenced as they got older in to the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. So, I have had several comments, say in stating that, if you talk about the boomers, you cannot talk about them really having hardly any; the effect on the Civil Rights movement, even the antiwar movement on college campuses, the majority of them were a lot of the older graduate students, I remember-
25:10
RJ: If we take now, we are saying (19)46 to (19)60, right? Now-
25:14
SM: [inaudible] those are people who were born between (19)46 and (19)64.
25:17
RJ: Okay, well, between (19)46 and (19)64. All right now-
25:20
SM: Bill Clinton's like, he is just nearing-
25:22
RJ: He is a boomer.
25:23
SM: 50.
25:23
RJ: Okay, right.
25:23
SM: That group is just turning 50 this year.
25:25
RJ: Right, I see what you are saying. Right. Now, on the other hand, if you think okay, (19)40, if you take (19)46 now, and they, I believe those people have a lot of- see the Civil Rights movement, actually, moved, moved from public accommodation against [inaudible]. I believe that the Vietnam War resistance movement, if you may, was an aspect of Civil Rights. And I think it prompted many of the demonstrations, the rallies the whole bit. Okay. The fact that Muhammad I believe spoke out in about (19)64, (19)65. Again, (19)65 at (19)64, no (19)63. He spoke out about (19)63 and (19)64, (19)64, when he spoke out and said about his being refusing to go to Vietnam, if I am not mistaken. (19)64, (19)65. Okay, now it will you think about that, that had an aspect of the Civil Rights movement. Okay, so I guess Muhammad Ali would have been considered a boomer, right? Yeah, he was. He is about 52 now, something like that. 50, or 50-50 or 51, something like that. Okay, well, anyway, he would have been considered that- he had a tremendous impact, the Black Panther Party, Huey Newton, okay. Let us say, Eldridge Cleaver. They had a heck of an impact upon the Civil Rights movement in the late (19)70s. I mean, the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Okay, because they have moved from the feeling that for example, as a matter of fact, if the Panthers were around right now, they will be considered terrorists. Okay. It is no question about it, okay. If you look at the Democrats who have, you know, Students for a Democratic Society, and people like that at Berkeley, for all intents and purposes, that was (19)70, they had an impact on legislation in Congress, the (19)68 Civil- I mean, (19)68 convention in Chicago, okay. With respect to what Mayor Daley did, and how he controlled that particular, that was all about Civil Rights. It actually put law enforcement under the microscope, it began to make people start thinking about how you are going to contain crowds and not contain crowd. Okay, you have people in terms of the Hun- the Hungarian, say invasion and so forth. That was (19)63, no it was (19)66 (19)67. Okay, if I am not mistaken, not Hungarian.
27:59
SM: Poland.
27:59
RJ: Poland, okay.
28:00
SM: That was (19)68.
28:01
RJ: Yeah, (19)68.
28:02
SM: Alexander Dubček.
28:03
RJ: There you go. And yeah, okay. If you take a look at that, for example, then you had students on college campuses reacting against that, okay, and so forth, that what happened at Kent State in 1970, had a tremendous impact upon influencing policy. Okay, those, and when those white children got killed in their [inaudible]. Now, if you take a look at it, all of those youngsters were actually born since 19- that participated in that were in fact born since that period, (19)46.
28:35
SM: You are right [inaudible] the observations that I am getting so far. I am the boomers. For example, when you talk about what is the question I have coming up here, [inaudible] that question I asked with respect to the Vietnam War. What is the impact of boomers on that war with respect to ending it? Now, this is a commentary and your thoughts are very important here. I have had one person who said, "That is ridiculous. They did not end the war. The people that end- Richard Nixon ended the war" and [crosstalk] conservative, okay-
29:05
RJ: Yeah-yeah.
29:06
SM: Then I got the other extreme saying, and this is where I interviewed Jack Smith of ABC news a couple of days ago when I was down here. And then of course, he was in Vietnam. And he said that, "No, the college students did not end the war." One end of the war was the middle class Americans who saw the kid who's caught saw their sons coming home from Vietnam. And when-when Middle America saw that the war was bringing, was killing people and everything, they made the decision that they were against the war and they influenced their politicians. And that is why you saw the Frank Churches of the world who would not get on the bandwagon with the extremists on college campuses. Fear of not only losing his senate position in Idaho, but so what-what are your thoughts in terms of the boomers and their impact on the on those two movements, particularly on the ending of the Vietnam War, number one, and then their-their important role or not so important role in the Civil Rights movement. Now, you mentioned the Black Panthers, but in terminology, boomers. That is what I am trying to get at here and keep in mind you we are talking 60 million people here, of which some of the books they only about 15 percent were ever active anyways, in any kind of activism during this
30:21
RJ: Oh, look let me tell you what, I have, they had a tremendous impact upon influencing the Civil Rights movement. Because if you think about it, the Birmingham church bombings, which were in the (19)60s, those children that were killed for our exam- for example, they were boomers as well as the children who demonstrated. You see what I mean, about the policies, in terms of and who followed Mrs. Parks. They were not they were not your typical college student, but they affected public opinion. For example, many Gene Smith, and let us say, Donald Green, and those people who went to Central High School, for all intents and purposes, okay, so [audio cuts] [inaudible] The Supreme Court decision has been rendered, and everything, which is another major impact- is it on?
31:12
SM: Yep.
31:12
RJ: Okay. Here is another major impact. See, some of this was actually, it was actually subsequent to, that was an era there were a lot of young Black people who were in fact, boomers. And who were born right, even right, the right in that same era there. Okay, in terms of [inaudible] to (19)60, that the child in terms of whom Brown versus the Board was in fact, she was 26 or 27 years of age, you see, so then, and that was not- that was of international prominence, that decision will go down. But as in the famous canons of jurisprudence, forever Brown versus the Board of Education, that was a boomer child. Okay, that was at the center of that whole controversy. I mean, all that was a major Civil Rights decision was changed. It was it was the moral equivalent to the ending of Apartheid in South Africa. And a boomer child actually created that. Okay, now, and then if you take a look at, they had the [inaudible] boomers. Another thing in terms of Civil Rights movement. [Michael] Schwerner and [Andrew] Goodman, and, and [James] Chaney, the three civil rights mov- workers that were killed in Mississippi, and I think it was (19)63 or (19)64. Okay.
32:39
SM: (19)64.
32:40
RJ: Okay, fine. Now, they were boomers. They were in fact, they were not. They were like, I think what 18, 19 and 20 or something like that? They just barely, just barely missed it maybe, but for all intents and purposes, but here they were was showing coalitions at that time. And they were fighting, and that was a national prominent international peace that had international media down that end, and now just goes right on up to this the Vietnam War. While I believe that the mothers and the middle class really did, maybe they were the ones who wrote the letter, the boomers were the conscience, i.e. Bill Clinton, okay, that type of thing. And the boomers did not want to serve in that war. Okay, the boomers were trying to do everything they could to get-get school status of get out of the country, because they did not want to go to Vietnam. Okay, so consequently- and that was generally a draft dodger, new lexicons, you see what I mean, we are actually developed a new lingo, and that type of thing, right. And so, then that particular say, impact, the media did not focus on the middle class, because that was very unamerican. But the media did not focus on Kent State, they did focus on Berkeley, it did focus on, say, University of say New York, did focus on that, did focus on Michigan State, you see, and this type of thing, and all of the Black schools in the south, it focused on that. So then and about their opposition to the war, and actually the boomers highlighted another thing that, that when certain moral issues, are brought up, that Black students and white students coalesce even in historically Black schools and-and predominantly white school, around the immorality of something because in Jackson State in the same year, the same month that in fact, in Jackson, Mississippi, that there were, say nine or so students killed at Kent State, there were also the troops fired and killed on five or six Black students at Jackson.
34:43
SM: Right, in fact there were four killed at Kent State and I thought a few wounded and then there were two killed Jackson State.
34:49
RJ: Yeah.
34:49
SM: And I still remember the fact that it is a very sensitive issue that when you started talking about what happened in (19)70, you better talk about both schools.
34:56
RJ: That is right.
34:57
SM: And then the media has a tendency, and I know they did an article on this in the Chronicle of Higher Education. It was in the last couple of years, when they were celebrating past anniversaries that this this year, they made absolutely sure that the anniversaries of both of these tragic events were recovered because the-
35:14
RJ: So, the media are being influenced by the boomers too making and raising these moral issues. Okay, so no question about.
35:23
SM: Yeah, how do you respond to a person who might say a Vietnam veteran will say, "Well, you are only talking about the elites here. You are talking about those people, “Whether they are African American or white students, or Latino students who went to college, you are talking about the elites here, you are not talking about the rest of America of the boomers who never went to college, which is still the majority, the boomers who went off to war in Vietnam and never got a college degree, which was probably the majority. So how can you define that group of boomers?
35:54
RJ: That group of boomers as the one that were you, the most healing has to take place. Because they were in the fighting units in Vietnam, okay. And that type of line, the [inaudible] Eagles and the Marine Corps and that type of thing. Now, let me tell you, and they were also the labor force that geared up after Chevrolet started making shells in St. Louis, in the (19), let us say (19)65 to (19)70, they open up shell plants, and many of your major car producers went into developing, you know, shells for artillery, and so forth. Now, they-they did that, they were the ones that were doing the heavy-duty operation, or they were on the front line. Now, they, therefore when they came back, and also I think they are the most troubled Black and white, because they still are I still have men in my classes now who fight the battle of Vietnam almost on every issue that comes up in that particular classroom. And these are not the elite. These are students who are not supposed to even made it to college. But then let us go back to in terms of the drug problem. The drug problem is, I think, significantly impacted on the-the guy on the street, and right immediately subsequent to many of the GIs coming back from Vietnam, they were hooked. They stayed they state, I have had them in therapy and so forth. I am not talking about college students, they had to, in fact, use that to anesthetize themselves and the availability of it, they even talk about that they knew it was pretty much a national policy that they could get as much Vietnam, I mean, say heroin and get as much marijuana as they wanted to. The family, Agent Orange affected the middle class. Okay, that and it is still affecting the middle class, okay, in terms of that, and so even now, one of the things that is causing the prevention of that healing is that these issues have not been resolved. And we got another issue of that, where some of the babies of the boomers are experiencing the same thing with respect to the Desert Storm syndrome. Okay, so then and these are not college students. This is the run of the mill GI who is at Fort [inaudible].
38:15
SM: So, when you again, a lot of my questions that are being taken off from some of the other interviewees really been reflected from a [inaudible]. So when a person who is college educated, but certainly Vietnam says that the ending of the war in Vietnam that was not because of what was happening on college campuses, is what was happening away from the college campuses, but the media portrayed it and everything-
38:38
RJ: The media was not going to go down on those college campuses. You see what I mean? It was not going to go down there. Think about that. As another thing, if you think about it, the Kerner Report, the Kerner Report documents all of this with the US, you familiar with that, right? And the US commission on riots and civil disobedience, which came out in (19)68, okay, when it came out, it documented all of it. What happened in Detroit was a lot of frustration in terms of the Boomers who were acting up the. What happened in in Watts, that were, okay, the-the lack of civil and legal recourse that were available to people, okay, all of these types of things that that unrest and so forth, and the still oppressive nature. But see, now get ready for this, the media then was getting ready to turn a corner. So what the media did, they even staged some things that were not true. The media had begun to recognize them. Remember I said early on an interview, that the media has been the cohesive glue that networks around all of this stuff together. And the media has changed and has been extremely, let us say vocal and in pointing this out, everybody knows that nobody likes to see little Black- little white girls get killed on college campuses. Okay, so consequently, you cannot say it was made a big deal. Now I will believe that Kent State was the most significant impetus in changing policy about the Civil- about the Vietnam war than any single incident.
40:19
SM: You are [inaudible] right on that one, because I can remember that even when I was a graduate student at Ohio State back and (19)71 and (19)72. By (19)73, [inaudible] changing-
40:31
RJ: That is right.
40:32
SM: The movement just [breath to indicate vanishing]
40:34
RJ: [inaudible] got elected, a Democrat, got elected governor for four years-
40:38
SM: Oh right, and then they voted the other guy back in.
40:40
RJ: And voted Rhodes back in.
40:41
SM: I know.
40:41
RJ: You see what I mean? That saying that.
40:43
SM: Amazing.
40:44
RJ: Yes, it was amazing, was not it? But again, and that conservative impetus has been with us, we have had only two Democratic presidents since then. And one of them was suspect, Jimmy Carter's suspect of having been a Democrat, okay, because of his very conservative policies. So then since that time, we have only had one a Democratic president since that time, in terms of a liberal elite, and of course, now history showing us that-that [inaudible] is not liberal.
41:12
SM: Very middle of the road.
41:13
RJ: That is exactly right. So then we see that. So then that era hit in there, and now who is keeping him in? The boomers, therefore, you would have to say a significant number of the boomers are in fact, keeping him in there, because that means then keeping him in keeping that-that conservative bent and look at this, there- the Newt Gingrich's and so on, and so forth. But I understand and that is what we got to do. But there is hope. The hope is, that is not either or, we got people all up and down the spectrum there in terms of say, their political bent. But in the final analysis, we would have to say that people made a fundamental shift in their, in their worldview, and that worldview became that we, that you must get, in effect, the bottom line in materialism. And I think that had to do again, with the impetus of the media, the media has infused that, the media is about selling. The media is not about in fact, say doing anything, but selling and getting people to buy. So then therefore, and as people saw, people want it. And therefore now they look at the conservative bent as having more money in my pocket and the liberal bent as taking money away from me and giving to someone else. So we went back to our media induced social Darwinists. You got to be more fit than the other person. And the way that you be more fit than the other person is the one that in fact, has all the marbles, who at the end of the game wins.
42:51
SM: Yeah, it is like, one of the terms that was used, I can remember when I was in college, and I was really proud of it is that we are the most unique generation in American history, we are going to change the world. We are going to make sure that everybody is equal, that racism is going to end. Of course, the sexism issue was something that was growing too with the women's, but it was the concept of equality, we cared about others, it was hopefully others beyond ourselves, yet, you had the enigma or the what some people might call hypocrisy of a slogan that was used in that time, and I can remember having it on my door at Ohio State University in Jones Tower-
43:32
RJ: Were you part of the problem or [inaudible]
43:34
SM: No, it was the Peter Max posters that were all over Ohio State at that time. And the slogan was "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance, we should come together, it will be beautiful." And that, that if you say that then some people will say, well, the boomers were no different than any other generation. They are into making money that you saw what happened in the (19)70s or the late (19)70s. And the (19)80s the "me" generation they were really only into "me," they were they were very selfish, making money getting a job, they were no different than any other group. This business about idealism and being different is a bunch of malarkey. So, I know that I have not- I still have the same ideals but I am kind of wondering if I am an out- if I am an outcast. Because money-
44:19
RJ: Good. If you an outlier, good.
44:20
SM: Money is money is not the most, never has been the most important thing in my life. And in but to some people it is.
44:27
RJ: Yes, it is, a whole lot of people.
44:29
SM: And that is what they say that the boomers as a whole were no different than any other group. They just wanted to raise families, make a lot of money have a car and a couple of cars and the whole works. What are your thoughts on the boomers being at that time saying that they are the most unique generation in American history?
44:43
RJ: I think they sold; I think a significant number of them sold out. Okay. And sold out to their, their principles of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Okay, and but I understand it and I can accept it because I have a fairly decent understanding of the process of socialization, and that is in terms of the conformity in the normal curve, okay in a normal distribution, and that most of the people began to follow what was being infused into them. We started to invite say, like, choose our majors based upon job prospects on college campus, we were not choosing our majors based upon what we wanted to do. And when you talk to people about what they what they were going to major in when they want to go to college, they said I want to I want to major in and probably businesses or something, something that is going to make me an awful lot of money, okay. They did not think about like, if you has asked people 30 years before then. And people would have said, "Well, I want to be a teacher," or "I want to be a social worker," or "I want to be an engineer," okay, something like-they did not want to be, they had to do what was going to make them a lot of money. So they were in fights, they coopted. And consequently, and I noticed that where else who logically would have believed that a whole institution that financed the home of boomer parents, the parents of boomers would have allowed without major hysteric the savings and loan association to be robbed completely dry. And then accept that the Resolution Trust arbitrarily now takes out their checks every month, 2 to $3, from every American who has a checking account or savings account, to pay for the savings and loan institution that was robbed, literally dry, to in fact, say pay for the money that was stolen from people and many people never got. But that was not a public outcry. Because the-the moral ethical belief made a tremendous shift to that whole notion of if you can get away of the 11th commandment is, do not get caught. That is where we are now. And that is the moral principle that we are operating on that now, I do not like that about the boomers. Okay, because now is nobody- I had an Iranian who worked for me about, oh, 10 years ago. And he said, you know, America is a funny place. Nobody cares what you do. Nobody is concerned about what your profession is or what you do. Everybody is concerned about whether or not you make a lot of money in it. Okay, and that is true. Nobody cares if you own like waste management now waste management company, if you will, in fact, waste management, which is just a garbage man in my in my here generation. If you waste management, you are going to be filthy rich, because that is a big issue now but that is all people concerned about, "Can I make money at it?" So therefore, like the youngsters who are in adult right now, and what we got ourselves to really think about this, now, the papers just reported the other day that, for example, drug abuse it uses up among the children of boomers significantly, okay, the drug policy office out of the office of the White House which ascended politically to a cabinet level position was in fact wiped out with the staff. That is why Lee Brown left and went back to Rice University. As a professor, he got a chair because he saw that Clinton was not doing anything.
48:34
SM: Down to 20 people, was not it?
48:35
RJ: Down to 20.
48:36
SM: 120 to 20.
48:37
RJ: That and no budget. They just had to put, they were coordinating and everybody else, it was nothing by the show and tell position. So then that goes along with the moral and ethical hierarchy that we have which the boom- now, the boomers are very tolerant of immorality. Because you got to just come to grips with that. The babies of boomers and the boomers are very tolerant of immorality, and they lack- the babies of boomers particularly, they do not have that work ethic that we had, that many of the boomers had or if you may the post-boomers, anti-boomers had. Okay, the generation the anti-boomers had, but they do not have that same work ethic. They want to make a fast buck at any way that they possibly can.
49:23
SM: Can you talk about the drug scene that the, what was happening in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, a Timothy Leary what his famous slogan there, "tune in to turn on turn out" or whatever it was. He said, so many of the boomers did that that they were kind of lacks. And so, the parents or the boomers today will say you cannot be judging us and our usage of drugs look at what your generation did, you think there is something?
49:49
RJ: I think there is a tolerance. You know, like, I see I see parents who know that their children are into drugs, and there is a certain resignation. That is going to happen. And it is not that they are alarmed about it like the parents of boomers would have been, they, the boomer parent is "I know what is going to happen." And "Well, my son and my daughter has a drug problem." And they kind of look upon it as a process through which they are going, they are going to go, and stages through which they are going to go. They just accept that as almost a rite of passage now. I do not see parent, I do not see most parents saying that, "Oh, Lord, I do not want my child to get into dru- Oh, my goodness, he is into drug or what have you. Well, you know, we are working with them and we are willing to spend $25,000, from the insurance company to send him or her for somewhere to dry out for 20, for 10 weeks or so or something like." They just for the middle class people, but in terms of for the less than middle class people, they see it as the one opportunity for making that buck.
51:00
SM: So that was in the intersection. That is why when you are looking at all of these issues, you just cannot just look at the issue [inaudible], you got to look at the economy again. You know, we have kind of the big sphere, that vision really causes these problems. Have you changed your opinion at all, say when I was a student at Ohio State University in (19)72, and in (19)96, and you change your opinions and all over the last 25 years toward boomers, you have taught a lot of students when you were fairly young professor when I had you I know back in the 28 or 29 it was [inaudible] Yeah. And you saw those students who were boomers and you saw many other boomers in the next 5 to 10 years that followed, and then you have also had the people of today. What are your thoughts on, I guess from-from a professor's point of view, you have seen them. You have seen them in class, but now students of all colors- what is your analysis of this these people? Have most of your students for example, have you been proud of most of your students? Have they gone on and lived up to the concept of you know, going on to education and making a career and what are your just your overall thoughts?
52:13
RJ: Ones that- I keep in contact with a with a number of them. And I have seen, it is a trend that most of them who thought they were going to work on college campuses and schools and things of this nature, social service types of job, use those positions to go into working with Xerox starting up their own consultancy firms moving into politics and things of this nature. And I do believe it has been power and money driven. Okay, I do not think that it has been altruistically driven, okay. As, now that is, that is one thing. I think it is still money and power driven.
53:03
SM: That is got to disappoint you, does not it? When you-
53:06
RJ: Well-
53:07
SM: Because when you teach in class, you are trying to extreme opposite.
53:10
RJ: Yes. But here is what I say. I think I understand reasonably well the whole socialization process. So it pleases me when I see someone like well, you remember Mac Stewart?
53:10
SM: Yes.
53:11
RJ: Okay. Now Mac, from what I heard is still at Ohio State is he is still working in student- well in University College as Assistant Dean, but I know other people who came through like him, who moved out and went in this- take Alex Moore. Alex got his degree and say, Student Personnel Administration, his PhD but went and started to work for boarding company in Switzerland. Last I heard he is in Ohio back in the international headquarters, in Columbus working for them. Now, if you take Carl Harshman, remember Carl Harshman?
54:00
SM: He was stocky.
54:01
RJ: Yes.
54:02
SM: Big stocky guy.
54:03
RJ: Yeah, well Carl Harshman has now an international consultancy firm and is a millionaire, and lives in a big exclusive area, and I am in touch with him frequently, you know. Carl it works in transitioning Japanese well I will say American owned say factories and what have you, for Japanese owned businesses. And he is coordinating that whole process of training workforces to move into say, for example, new products and everything with a big staff. He loves higher education and all that all together after working [inaudible] professor, and in fact, say like a vice president, but for Academic Affairs, at St. Louis University, and that is what he is doing. But I understand that okay, I understand it. It does not really disappoint me, I think because again, I am not so sure that some of these people, or Felicia Gaston got- do you remember Felicia? She got her, she went to [inaudible] got her degree, went to Ohio State got in student personnel and she has been with Xerox now almost 20 years. This stuff you see, I mean, and went way up the ladder to a regional vice president or something like that. Okay, so then it but that was the trend of boomers and a- the babies. Well, let us put it like this now. The babies are boomers’ children I am seeing in therapy now. Okay, they are angry as hell. The number one target of my therapy that I work with now is anger management and disruptive behavior. Okay, if they in fact are presenting as depressed or presenting as, say, with panic disorders or attention deficit hyperactive disorder, the one thing you can count on is that they are violent and angry. Okay, it does not matter what the babies are boomers now we are talking about the ones that are getting ready to go to college now. Okay, that those will be the babies of boomers. Right?
56:02
SM: Right.
56:02
RJ: Okay, so now they are in fact, they are typically identify as- white or Black- by their being extremely insensitive, object relationship oriented, not in terms of say human, but things. That is what I see now.
56:21
SM: Are they mad at their parents?
56:22
RJ: They are mad they would- some of them do not even know what that, but a lot of them are very mad. I have one anger management group on Saturday morning. And it runs the gamut from professional parent boomers or babies of professional parents to just the working mother. Okay, and the literature reports the same thing. And they are mad in terms of the idiographic, the specific- person specific ang- manage, say, anger, focus. The parents are very frequently a target of it. When you talk about nomographic, general nomothetic type of measures for them, they are it may run the gamut all the way from being angry about their future, to being angry about, say, for example, let us say about anger producing situations that are about getting along with peers. You see what I mean, provocation about getting along with peers, provocations about position- people in positions of authority, you know, they have just, have this profound sense. It is almost like it is a latent sense of jealousy that comes out in abject violence.
57:32
SM: Wow.
57:33
RJ: Okay, now, those are the those are the babies of boomers. And what is his name? Devin Bakker out at Cal- out of Colorado State University, he has found he has- he said, for example, that a co-presenting problem was generally now that is found with most people in therapy, [phone rings] whether it is depression or anxiety, or whatever, it is the issue of anger. Now, you have to have all the irrespective of where you go, there are anger issues in these schools that is tremendous. Getting back to the media, and getting back to the lack of nurturing types of parents that I am finding, okay.
58:17
SM: Which could be directly related to some of the qualities of the boomers so lack of commitment.
58:21
RJ: And, and the fact that the parenting role is unfair, see, they cognitively understand that "My dad is not here, he is not making money," or "My mom is not here, she is making money" and this type of thing. Or "My dad's not here, because, for example, my mom was doing her own thing, and she just got pregnant with me and there is no dad here." Or "My mom told my dad, I am you are going to keep me and I am going on about my way," or "I do not know who my dad is, I do not know who my mom is," or the grandmothers are raising the pre the parents of boomers are playing a significant role in raising the babies of boomers.
59:00
SM: I am seeing that too.
59:02
RJ: Yeah.
59:04
SM: It is uh-
59:05
RJ: Well, that is what I am saying that, for example, I think it is identity. It is an identity issue. And then we say we take it in targeted like that, then that means that we got to give them a sense of purpose.
59:19
SM: If you were to just say in they were the most unique generation, would you say they were most unique or they are no different than any other?
59:25
RJ: I do not think they really have that much different than any other in terms of the prolonged history in now and historical analysis. During this, this constricted contemporary, and I would almost have to say from the Industrial Revolution up to this cyberspace revolution or generation, I would say that they were adapting and are adapting to the way in which this unplanned let us say, ambience, in a global perspective, if you may wish the cyberspace is brought about, they are just inside being a part of that. So if you were to take the agrarian to the adult industrial and the industrial to the atomic and the atomic to the cybernetic, and if you were to take that, that group there from-from the what you will we just so happen to call it the boomers because, hey, what about if you made the Western expansionist if we want to do that, that was the whole movement that moved from go west young man, the [inaudible] concept from the agrarian to the industrial. So then you see, when we think about that, we could have called them something but we did not have the hook to put that on that the media gave us for the boomers that it has, and we did not have [inaudible] and we did not have other sociolog- sociologists, like that you see, and Max Weber, to have come by and given us these types of concepts to deal with. You see, so then that is what the conceptual incarceration we are in we are in fact, incarcerated in that concept.
1:01:03
SM: Good point. We are coming toward the end of this tape here. And then I am going to- we have another 30 minutes.
1:01:07
RJ: Yeah. Okay.
1:01:08
SM: Because of the um, we are going to get into some questions on Vietnam right now. You, I have been to the Vietnam Memorial three years ago now, I come down every Memorial Day now. I feel it is important for me to be there. I am trying to get a sense especially involved in this project, whether healing has really taken place, not only within the Vietnam [inaudible] population, but in the nation itself. Jan Scruggs wrote a book in 1982, the person who put together the Vietnam memorial, called To Heal a Nation. And so, I have looked at that I read that and a tremendous effort in terms of creating a non-political entity, where people can come and reflect it is the whole, you have been there, you have seen, the impact has on everybody, everybody, it affects them differently. They reflect them in some respects, as Jackson has said, they all reflect in somewhat of a different way, when they look at that wall. Their own- do you feel that the boomers are a generation that is still having problems with healing. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial did a great job of the veterans in some respects and families of veterans but do you [audio cuts]. Okay, here we go.
1:02:19
RJ: As I was saying that it may be in terms of why they were so inactive, is because if their parents were wealthy enough to give it give them, they were given everything they took so much for grant- they have been taken so much for granted. And if they were on if they were not, the social welfare system, gave them everything that they wanted, or they have insight, learned to deal with deviant ways of coping in society, that they are experts in dealing in deviancy. Think about it, you know, like, from the drug thing, to the prostitution, to the violence, to the gang banging and all of this stuff. These are deviant ways of coping with their pressures. To just simply actually-actually acquiesce to-to, to being a failure, to acquiesce being a failure is actually a deep deviant coping mechanism. [audio cuts]
1:03:32
SM: We just have to check on that, because your experience with [inaudible]. This might be seen- I only three more questions, and then we are done.
1:03:40
RJ: Okay, no problem.
1:03:40
SM: This may seem a repetitive question, but I think it is very important with the project I am working on again, that is why I am repeating it. Do you think it is possible to heal within a generation where differences in positions taken are so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care and is it feasible? For example, during my many trips to the wall, I have been to several ceremonies of the veterans in the audience. Many of them have stated that they still hate Bill Clinton, they hate Jane Fonda based on the fact that they are wearing these badges that say "Jane Fonda bitch," they are all over the place. They hate those and protested the war and never gave veterans a royal welcome on the return to the mainland. The Wall was helping a magnificent way but the hate remained for those on the other side. Should an effort be made to assist in this healing beyond the wall, your thoughts? Are you optimistic or pessimistic? And basically, I guess what I am trying to get at. I know it is impossible to 100 percent deal as one person told me, is Dr. Silver, who is a psychologist up in Coatesville. He said “There is a difference between forgiving and healing. Healing, we can know a lot of veterans are healing from the war, but they cannot forgive.” So, do not misinterpret that the fact that they cannot forgive Jane Fonda or Bill Clinton means that they are not healing. You agree with that premise? That or do you agree that the efforts that the healing process should be trying to get beyond the need to forgive Bill Clinton because he was a young man at that time. And he obviously made have done something wrong in their eyes, but to constantly use hate someone; hate is a strong word.
1:05:12
RJ: Well, I-I do not believe that healing can take place without forgiving. Forgiving is atonement and spiritually, the only way that you can find say like, and this is psychological and spiritual, the only way that you can heal, which means to become whole is to, in fact, say like forgive, where you are giving the past a different meaning. As long as you are holding on to a past that has been self-hurting to you, and a past that has been troubling to you, then you cannot heal. And if you decide and the only person actually who can bring about that healing is oneself, one has to learn the process of change and the process of healing. And one of those things is that one has to in fact, let the past go. Do not allow the past to control your present, then you are in fact being healed. Okay, like for example, a good [inaudible] metaphor is if you allow us, you have an abrasion and it scabs, that happened in the past, it is in the process of healing. But if you in fact, allow yourself to pull that scab off, it takes it back to where it was, it was you re-hurt it again. So then the skin cannot, the scab cannot fall away, cannot harden to allow the skin to re- to become whole and is one. Okay, so this is what has been happening. I think with a lot about Vietnam, we think it is a it is a destination, it is a journey, the healing is okay, and I am in that process. The petroleum that drives that you to that journey is forgiveness.
1:07:06
SM: It is interesting, that brings up the whole idea that this is such a complex subject, that even when we talk about healing, the definitions are different. You as a professional, this other person is professional.
1:07:17
RJ: It does not surprise me because in my judgment, European men have a difficult time dealing with spiritual concepts, unless they are theologians.
1:07:29
SM: People will ever trust elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate [inaudible] stress what effect is this having on the current [audio blip] it gets back to my question with Senator Muskie, and the fact that I can remember reading something that if you cannot trust in life, you have got to trust someone, you cannot, if you do not-
1:07:48
RJ: That is right-
1:07:48
SM: You are not going to be successful in life-
1:07:50
RJ: Which is true. If you cannot trust.
1:07:50
SM: In the long run. But there is a lot of you know, I still have that problem. I am very, not what I lot of people I trust, I mean- But positions of authority, it is always seems to be about power, its control, its takeover. It is never it is jealousy. It is you know, and I know, it is- that is part of what being a person is-is the politics of life. I know that for a fact that whenever you get into a certainly an institution of higher education, and certainly in the political reason it is and then after, and then as most boomers have done, they have grown up at a time when they saw their-their leaders assassinated, they saw political the nation come apart. They saw divisions that were so wide. And then then of course, Watergate just added on top of that you cannot trust the enemies list, you know, people looking into private lives. And you will see that extended into today with almost a George Orwell, George Orwellian philosophy of (19)84, that nothing is private, nothing is sacred anymore. Your whole private life is now on computers that can be bought. It is just an extension of the Nixon enemies list almost. You see a little bit of in the White House with the appointment, some of his people taking the Republican names, even though it may have been a mistake, someone was doing it. So, I am asking that basically, this whole concept of trust. We see amongst our college students today that only about 15-17 percent, according to last studies of entering freshmen are have any interest in politics or actually to trust any leaders yet there is interest in volunteerism is over 85 percent. So, on the one hand, we see students will obviously care about others because they are doing volunteer work. They care about others yet, maybe they do not see the sense that they themselves can be empowered.
1:09:35
RJ: Well, [crosstalk] they do see that they can be empowered, but the type of empowerment is obviously altruistic and not financial, and not and not receiving their empowerment is not giving which is, in my judgment, more probably more peaceful, more subtly and more if you want to talk about identity is more is more is coming and goes with whom you are more. And that you are defining yourself by what you are doing by using your talents to in fact help somebody else.
1:10:20
SM: That is happening on amongst today's college students.
1:10:23
RJ: Well, that is great, that is really great at that level, are definitely say that that is admirable, and probably in terms of the healing process of a generation, and the babies of boomers healing, maybe they are, in fact, say healing themselves. And in the process, maybe the boomers in their senior years will emulate what their children are doing in terms of reconciling. And actually, if you may, atoning by letting it go, what they have been driven by-by all these years for all these years.
1:10:57
SM: How do you respond on the fact that today's college students still do not vote? They do not vote. Boomers do not vote in large numbers. And boomers are the ones that are thought to have the 18 year old vote, the old slogan was a for going off to war, then we have to be able to vote, we are going to die in war at 18, then we can vote at 18.
1:11:16
RJ: Okay.
1:11:16
SM: Of course (19)68 was the first year that 18-year-olds could vote. So yet but, statistics show that boomers and their kids are both not voting. And the to use Dr. Benjamin Barber, who is-
1:11:27
RJ: Okay but look at it like this. But then what are politicians doing about voter registration, motor-motor voter registration, have you noticed they do not want it? Why? Because they-
1:11:37
SM: Jackson does, because-
1:11:37
RJ: Wait a minute but that is not, but he is a different type of politician, he is an altruistic one. That professional politician does not want that to happen. Okay, because they know if the people if those boomers who are not about the voting vote and have AIDS to the [inaudible], they tend to also be against the established politicians. Okay, and established politician know that that is a no-no, you do not want that type of person, even to vote in the poll, you want that opinionated, if you may, either-or type person in there, you do not want the thinking person in there, the boomers, the children or boomers, therefore probably going to register more as independents, rather less and less as Democratic or Republican, which is, in fact, again, the lifeblood of democracy. So, then what they are in fact, say perhaps going toward, and incidentally, not trusting the political process, maybe will be the existing the status quo political process may be is the impetus that is going to change it.
1:11:43
SM: [Inaudible] since the (19)60s and still continues here in the (19)90s.
1:12:27
RJ: [agreement]
1:12:32
SM: How did the youth in the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that in your 20s when you were teaching? You saw some of them, you saw some in your classes, and then of course, you have seen them now, throughout the years. Have they changed your life in any way, the boomers you have come in contact with?
1:13:06
RJ: Yeah, they gave me more hope. They did. Okay, when I think about it, but the majority of them gave me hope. It was especially when I was teaching in predominantly white schools. They gave me more hope about-about the races actually doing things together in a common end. Okay, they gave me more hope in the sense of saying that race or that quality probably transcended race when it came down to mentoring. Okay, I definitely saw that. And also, incidentally, that is why because you remember that course I had up at the prison, remember?
1:13:53
SM: Oh, great course.
1:13:53
RJ: Yeah. Okay. So then, and I am still doing some of that right now. But I remember when we had all of the young white blonde girls going up there to [Inaudible] Reformatory, which was one of the big prisons there.
1:14:06
SM: Tiffany Brian? I forget her name. We went with me. I forget her name Bitty O'Brian?
1:14:09
RJ: Bitty O'Brien. I remember her.
1:14:11
SM: She was a shrimp.
1:14:12
RJ: Yeah, and-
1:14:12
SM: Four foot six!
1:14:13
RJ: -Susan Shillman. And all of them. You know, they all went up there. So and then we were seeing that, that they had a sense of wanting to do something. But now that was, and now we also had to take into consideration that I was blinded. I did not know what was going on over the School of Business. I did not know what was going on in school of education. I mean, not education, but engineering and that type of thing I was dealing with because here is the other thing, Ohio State implemented while I was there, they implemented the early experiencing program that before you could declare your majors for the undergraduate, you had to have two years of volunteerism before you could declare your major they were just implementing that, okay. So consequently, that whole thing when you think about that, that sense of hope that I think that they the sense of commitment that they had, that they wanted to do something. But now guess what. The people, many of those people decided to get out of education, many of them decided to get out of social work. Why? Because it was not paying enough money.
1:15:18
SM: Right.
1:15:18
RJ: But now on the other hand, the enroll and we even start disseminating, we started on, say, actually dismantling colleges of education. And now we see we do not have any teachers. So now we are having to re- get a resurgence in education, again, resurgence in social work, and so forth, okay. And people now a want those jobs and want those majors. I had a child in here the other day to tell me that he was really considering which is very African American young a very smart, what have you, and his dad killed his mom. And that is one of the issues he is dealing with about six years ago, and he is still dealing with it, but he wants to be a teacher. You know, I mean, and that is unusual to find a child now that says, "I want to be a teacher" or "I want to be a minister," or that "I want to be, I want to major in criminal justice" or something. Everybody is, "I want a lot of money. I want to be a doctor, I want to be a lawyer." You see what I mean?
1:16:15
SM: Right.
1:16:16
RJ: Even my two children, remember that? Lisa is I told you is an MD at Merck now, she just moved up there last month and from-from Glaxo Wellcome. And Marcus is completing his MBA, with a baby then, is completing his MBA JD at Georgetown, one more year. Okay, look at what they chose.
1:16:35
SM: That was the son that I met two years ago, he was going to go to Berkeley or Stanford. What happened to?
1:16:39
RJ: He is at Georgetown.
1:16:40
SM: Oh, he is at Georgetown.
1:16:40
RJ: Yeah.
1:16:41
SM: Oh, okay.
1:16:41
RJ: Yeah, he is going, his MBA. He has finished in more year, he will have an MBA and JD.
1:16:48
SM: Wow. Two more questions, and I swear we are done.
1:16:53
RJ: Okay.
1:16:55
SM: Again, this might be repetitive when the best history books are written on the growing up years for the boomers saying 25 to 50 years from now, what will be the overall valuation? I think you have covered that in what you have said before, but as a history major, political science, which was my double major as an undergrad, one thing I was always taught is that the best history books on any era or take about 50 years. History books right now on World War Two, [inaudible] the best ones on World War Two are now. And so, we are only like, 25 years out from that era, that juncture there is a lot of books that are written, you feel that-that is, it is, it is too early?
1:17:28
RJ: 50 years?
1:17:29
SM: Yeah. But do you think?
1:17:30
RJ: Is it too early now to say it is some good lookout?
1:17:33
SM: Yeah.
1:17:33
RJ: Well, I do not think that is really, we have not run a full course, I agree. That I really think that is, you know, because we almost got what would be considered modernity and postmodernity within that group. I mean, that group right there. So now with the books that is going to come out and look at the transition from that, in terms of modernity, and postmodernity, which will probably be another 20 odd years, those are going to be the ones that will give us the best account of this generation, okay. The boomer generation, I think it has not- certain conclusive, let us say positions cannot be taken now. Because this in gestation, I mean that the children will say a lot about how successful the parents will be. The children's success on the children's behaviors is going to make it is going to give people the empirical data about what was apparently collectively happening with the parents.
1:18:27
SM: And [inaudible], could you comment on the generation gap in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the generation gap if you sense one between the boomers and generation X. Obviously, I could talk all day, [phone rings] this generation gap when I was there. When I was a young person, I can remember this taking that sociology class at SUNY Binghamton before I arrived on the Ohio State campus, to see Wright Mills' book, White Collar, talking about fact that the IBM mentality of everybody with a top hat, with a suit, with a car out in front, the [inaudible] in the house, that was what we did not want to be. Because remember, that was when the Multiversity. I think it was-
1:19:14
SM & RJ: Barker's book.
1:19:15
SM: -Coming out there. And the revolt was that we were not going to be carbon copies of what the university or what society wanted us and we are all going to go our different ways. We are going to challenge the status quo. And that was obviously the tension between the generation, my generation and my parents’ generation. And now you see you I have raised a few things about tensions between the boomers and big things on Social Security. Every but thing's being written now that stayed in the (19)30s. Because there was an ongoing war. We have had people on our campus from [inaudible] to third millennia wars, alarming today's college students about the upcoming war on Social Security between boomers and today's children. I mean, they are saying a war is coming even before the war has happened. I do not like that terminology, "war." But I do not know. But would you- would you agree that the generation gap is any different now than it was back in the (19)60s?
1:20:14
RJ: Yeah, I think that is a very good point. I think it was on less serious issues back in the (19)60s, probably we thought that they were serious then. But in the (19)60s is a generation gap was pertaining to things like about whether you are going to go to college, who has the authority, and to make these decisions, and that older people out of touch in a more defiant- it was almost is we have an and say, diagnosis, we have an oppositional defiant disorder, then it was a more of an oppositional defiant disorder. But now, I think is structurally, I think that was what was happening now is that the very structure on which society is built, it is causing a rift in the generation in terms of, if you may, the issue of entitlement, okay. If you think about the issue of entitlement, what am I entitled to at 65, and-and going in my senior years, that my, my daughter will be entitled to or not entitled to and her- and my-my oldest daughter- and her children, she is a boom, a well, just yeah, she was born in (19)64. So then, in terms of her child, what will her child be entitled to? And then in terms of the workforce, you see, the older group, the older the-the boomers are going to be phasing out of the workforce. And the struc- and then with the global economy, and that issue coming in there, and what do we do with our older people and people in need? I think we are talking structural issues here. We are not we are not talk- it is analogous to, "Oh mom and dad, how late should I stay out" or "Should I in fact, engage in sex?" Now, there is analogous to that, to now it is much more serious. And that is, "what do you think about an abortion? As opposed to, "Should you not," as opposed to "Should I pit?" or "Should I be going steady?" Now the issue is, you see what I mean?
1:22:24
SM: Yep.
1:22:25
RJ: What should I be doing? What do you think about abortion as a political issue? People are now being, you see what I mean, and that this is a generational thing, or better yet not so much about what am I going to do in terms of my career, but whether or not we should in fact, be in allowing immigrants to come into the country. It used to be just, hey, you know, America, come on over. Right. But now we got much more structural issues here. I thought that-that is hitting that the infrastructure, that is actually having an impact about what our boomers going to do, as opposed to that children are going to do. And then how will we sus- how will we sustain this, the Social Security system, if, for example, we are outsourcing the making of Nike shoes to Malaysia, and we do not have those people in the in the Social Security system paying in anymore to take care of the boomers who are in fact getting older.
1:23:20
SM: I had not even thought of that. And I know about the social security issue. But you know, paying all the wages of people outside of this country. And this money could be coming into the United States, and that could be produced here. And that would help the divisions that could not [crosstalk]
1:23:35
RJ: That is exactly right but I think I am seeing something structurally happening in five years, the states will, in fact, have to, in fact, come up with- I noticed this in Wisconsin last, week before last. We saw an awful lot of young Black males working in hotels, you do not see that around here. I mean, cleaning up and everything, because Thompson out there is getting, in order to get certain types of benefits work- you got Workfare out there. Everybody is working, doing something in Wisconsin.
1:24:05
SM: Tommy Thompson.
1:24:05
RJ: Yeah.
1:24:06
SM: [Inaudible] writing a book out too right now. Is that Megatrends?
1:24:07
RJ: Okay, yeah, you know, he was being considered, he was not ready to be considered for vice presidents, but he is apparently doing something out there. His administration is, and that is what Clinton has supposedly, you know, tailored this thing. But now when you start thinking about the global economy, and then you start talking about the workforce growing, okay. I mean, workforce dwindling, and then outsourcing your-your jobs to, to whomever to the global economy. And that you know, like, I forget the name in his book, but you know, like we got we are going to have producers of information, and then we going to with the internet and everything- Maybe it is Megatrends. A female wrote it?
1:24:13
SM: Nope. Well, yeah. Male and female. The husband wife combination.
1:24:25
RJ: Okay, right. Okay. I forget who they are, they have written. Yeah, but you get where I am coming from. That is that right now you see, we are going to have different categories of who is going to be producing information, who is going to be the transportation to get the product to where it wants to go, and who is going to be the person to manufacture, and who is going to be the person to sell. That was what we got to do. And so when you think about this, think about this, at the bottom line is profit, you going to the cheapest person every time. So then, but what that does is unless you would have these centers, these-these type of centers or focus centers, you were going to get left out of the loop. And I think that is, what is getting ready to happen to the children of boomers, unless we in fact, began to reconceptualize it. But in the final analysis, we run a possible core shutdown of the whole thing. Because if the children of boomers are not paying into Social Security, then we got a problem. They do not have anything to support the people who are in fact seniors and dying out, and then they will not in fact, say like when they get a chance to move on until that, there is nobody to support them.
1:25:59
SM: It is pretty scary.
1:26:00
RJ: Yeah, it is.
1:26:01
SM: It was got to be addressed. It was got to be more vision, talk about the quality of vision. In a political, I am like, okay, we are talking, spending at least up to five, seven years down the road. Nine years?
1:26:14
RJ: It is going to be a major problem.
1:26:15
SM: (20)07 depending on the politician.
1:26:17
RJ: [inaudible]
1:26:20
SM: This is my last question. And again, the youth of the of that era believe they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)50s (19)60s and (19)70s, Vietnam [inaudible] legislation. Certainly, they were involved in nonviolent protests. And the many movements, whether it be the women's movement, the environmental movement, and the-the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, even the Hispanic movement at that time, and all were thrusting around that era. Although some of the critics of say the civil rights movement is not of that era, it was way before into the (19)50s. But why is society resisting this today? And why in your own words, were the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society, less desire and seemingly less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this question? [Inaudible] of opportunity, and by saying, less desire? I think we have probably gone over all of this already. But it is, it is something that is plaguing me. And because I- am I wrong and assuming that this is even a problem?
1:27:23
RJ: You are, I think you are onto something, I do not see the same commitment that they can bring about if I am understanding, that they can bring about change and wanting to get involved as readily as their parents were because now, we do have, we have a resurgence, if you may, of the media projection is one of individualism. The need is one of collective action. That is what we have, that again, creates another ambivalence. There is a need for people to collectively and altruistically be involved in things. And the, and the notion is that if I can acquire it is kind of a cybernetic social Darwinism, again, that, for example, the fastest growing businesses in the world right now in the United States anyway, are home-owned businesses, okay. And so therefore, we believe that by empowering people now, is to have a laptop and a modem. And a lot of people operating under the notion that if you have a laptop and a modem, you can in fact, work at home and do whatever it is that you want to do. So, if you got your inner sanctum there within your home, etc., you do not have to be concerned about anything else. You outsource that to somebody else to be concerned about. That is what the notion is all about. Outsourcing is the concept right now. I do not want this problem, get a private, privatize. Get somebody else to take care of it for you. Okay, and that is what our children- our children are more attuned to using me now. I mean, the boomer's children are more attun- they are not afraid to come to council. Some of them are resistant, boys tend to resist more than girls and etc. But they understand using that outsource of information they are not- they understand using agents. I mean, a good example of that, look at all these mega dollar contracts, basketball contracts that these guys got in this last year. They do not know beans about but how to go down and sort of jump the ball up, slam dunk, but they got these. They got these shrewd lawyers who are in fact working to get their money through these guys talent, outsourcing, you got some you got some talent, outsource it, get the person get your talent person and go ahead and get it.
1:29:56
SM: The term I [inaudible] "outsource-outsource." Is that a terminology of the (19)90s?
1:30:01
RJ: Yes. Outsourcing is what is turning DC around, man. Here is what it is okay. Like it used to it used to be the whole notion of make or buy, make or buy decision when you in business, do you make the product or do you buy? All right, a bakery. Do you, if you and say you own giant, giant food stores right over here, do you make this cheesecake, or do you buy it from somebody else to make it a [inaudible] or let a contract? See, here is the whole notion now. Everybody got a contract. Okay, now, just like another biggest purveyor of this concept is the Pentagon got the biggest budget in the federal government. But guess what, the Pentagon does not make one thing or manufacture one thing. Everything is outsourced to, to contracts.
1:30:51
SM: Senator Proxmire, remember?
1:30:54
RJ: Yeah.
1:30:54
SM: The whole fleece award or whatever [crosstalk]
1:30:55
RJ: Yeah, that is right. Everything is so now this down to this level right now, okay. And so forth. My son, musician, right. I mean, he also is into, he has his own band, and he is going into production, he was not going to entertainment law. Now, he has a couple of contracts on Department of Interior to put on concerts and parks in the DC area. Here, well he is doing one tonight and one tomorrow, everything is outsourced. When you in fact, say like need now, do you know one of the biggest businesses that are going on? Not owning a temporary agency to provide temporary accountants, you can provide temporary home care for your-your aging parents, you can provide temporary, a secretarial service, now you can do provide temporary anything. So, then the people do not have to run human resource departments anymore. You have not seen it probably at Westchester? Nobody, in fact, has a janitorial college. I mean, a university around here, or this building. This building does not have a maintenance person, it has, it outsources, it to a company that provides it.
1:31:13
SM: Yeah, that was what happened at Westchester.
1:31:54
RJ: Yeah, that was what happened at the university of DC. They do not have the same char-person anymore, taking care of who was on the staff. You do not have that overhead for the fringe benefits and all the rest of the stuff and you do not have to deal with unions.
1:32:22
SM: That is another thing that the children have to deal with. Because though even Sears Roebuck is hiring only part time people as opposed to full time.
1:32:28
RJ: Yeah.
1:32:29
SM: And all the money you are going to make is going to be based on what you sell.
1:32:33
RJ: Right, commission.
1:32:34
SM: And the dead days for all business. And then, but not giving coverage, medical coverage to employees, is one of the basic incentives for doing this, it is about cost saving.
1:32:44
RJ: That is right [inaudible].
1:32:47
SM: I have done here with the exception of the fact is, do you feel you have made an impact on American society? This question will be asked to all participants in the interview process. And as a follow up, do you feel you have made a positive impact in the lives of boomers and the members of the current generation called generation X? Some people said, you know, I cannot [inaudible]. Well, I will let you answer that. Just-just your own thoughts.
1:33:12
RJ: Well, by virtue of my former students, standing contact with me, the feedback that I get [audio cuts]. I fortunately am in a good position to get feedback from my people that I have been in contact with, I still stay in contact, believe it or not, I have a couple of youngsters that I was dealing with-with an Upward Bound project back at University of Illinois before I even got my PhD, that still stay in contact with me and attest to they are having gotten some from the way I operated and the way I operated, inspired them. I have undergraduates from when I was an academic advisor at Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville of a few people whose still contact me, one young lady call me recently she got a doctorate and when she came into town. She was here for I think, a funeral. And she called me and I had her as an undergraduate student, and she was still talking about the way I operated as an academic advisor in these- one of the ideas developed a concept called intensive academic advisement for high risk students. When I was at Southern Illinois, at Edwardsville and she was talking about how that feel, how that helped her. And I was home for a class reunion, for my high school classroom. And a lady approached me at church and said that two of her sisters yet talk about me as being their academic advisors and both of them are very successful. And now and when they were there working on their, on their degrees at Southern Illinois Edwardsville about and when we were introduced in church that Sunday, she said that she heard my name and she wanted to come up and say to her sisters have told her about me. Now that is almost 30 years ago, right? And then of course you is an attest- you are in attestment to that. I think I have made a difference. Carl Harshman is an attestment to that, that I think I ma- made a difference. Mac Stewart is in attestment. Everly Bank, do you remember her?
1:35:33
SM: Was she there when-?
1:35:34
RJ: She was a heavyset young lady. She were-
1:35:37
SM: Was she there in (19)72?
1:35:38
RJ: Yeah, she was kind of quiet. And but she was kind of obese. She went on and went to University of Minnesota and gotten a PhD. And Everly has been at about 10 different university in the last nine years. She has gone away to California someplace now, but just loved the universi- Jackson State University where she was vice president of this type of thing. And she has I have kept in contact with her over the years, you know, and Bill Pickard, I do not know if you remember him. Bill Pickard was working on his doctorate there at Ohio State at that time. And he went into business and owns a couple of McDonald's in Cleveland, Ohio, and another one in Detroit. And get ready for this. Bill is the state chairman of the Republican Party for the state of Michigan, very wealthy guy now, right. He is in contact with me, right. [laughter] This I mean, he is extremely wealthy. I mean, I am not saying he just got a little money.
1:36:40
SM: Right.
1:36:41
RJ: He is making buku dollars, okay. So, then that is, that is how I get some of the feedback then around here. Since I have been in this area. A lot. I mean, hund-, literally hundreds of people who have gotten their degrees out of our department at-at-at UDC, and a Master's in Counseling Psychology, they are now in working in DC government, heads of departments, the chief of police in, for example, chief of police in New Orleans, is William Pennington, he got his degree out of my department, I worked personally with him setting up some programs and things when he was here over the juvenile division, right. And now he is chief of police in New Orleans. So then in that regard, and he got a lot of outreach, and he got the community policing thing going on here, you know, that type of thing. So yeah, I think I have made a difference.
1:37:36
SM: That is very important. And I can admit, the fact that I am sitting here that you have made a difference in my life, because I say, well, you know, when we were-were, I think the best thing that ever happened to me was when I broke my arm before I came to Ohio State and had to start late, remember I was supposed to start in the fall. And I was supposed to have, I think [inaudible] Silverman, I think supposed to be my advisor, but because I came in January, you became my advisor. And I will never forget some of the meetings we had during this. But I can never forget some of the meet- [audio cuts]. I am not sure where we were here, but you look at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, about the healing process. Do you feel that? From your own perspective, not only someone who's a scholar and intellect, a professor, but someone who has seen a lot of people and lived through that era of the (19)60s and (19)70s, the Vietnam War. Do you sense that the healing has taken place within the Vietnam veterans, and then within the nation itself between those who are for or against the war, the tremendous divisions that happened in the country at that time?
1:38:46
RJ: Now, we were saying and as I was saying, you know, like, I think the last term I use when the conceptual incarceration in the boomers, okay, and the same thing is true with respect to the Vietnam issue and healing. It will heal. Right now, the motives for it is not healing by people who control the media is that it is still, it raises a lot of controversy. So, then people in the media go after things that are and book publishers go after things where people are still struggling to get the healing done, cause that pain will cause them to pursue some remedy. Like you were mentioning a man who did not make the eye contact, that was a negative coping antidote that they have had, well, let us say interpersonal social skills, it is an antidote that they have had to develop probably to keep their pain down, okay. And it they have very idiosyncratic reasons for not looking at people and so forth. Now there are people who are hustling the Vietnam War thing. I still I mean, the memory of the other Vietnam War thing is still being hustled by a lot of people. And you got to understand this is a capitalistic society, we always talk about this being a democratic society. I believe that when Abraham Lincoln said in the Emancipation Proclamation, and that he was going to give everybody 40 acres and a mule that was not just for [inaudible] folk. What that was, is that everybody has really believed in a way, and I certainly believe that, when you do not get your 40 acres and mule that is promised to you in the form of a degree and a job and a, two hot, two cars with a chicken in the pot and this type of thing, people going to figure out a way to get that 40 acres and the mule, you understand what I am saying? So therefore, we have to look at some of the motives behind keeping the Vietnam War, as in fact, say aroused, arousing and as provocative as it is, were there not the media, the healing would take place. Like for example, in suppose we have Armistice Day parade of 1946. In New York, everybody still remembers that, that brought closure to when the boys came home, you remember that concept? There is a concept, when the boys came home, that brought closure to World War Two. But the fact, but if we did not have the television, the immediacy of the television, how many stories have been made even the whole doggone thing about that the guise of Forrest Gump of Forrest Gump was a takeoff on the Vietnam War, and the whole process of healing, and so forth. You just name it, you got so many different movies, and so many type books and everything. People are hustling that concept, okay. So then everything in America is about capitalism, find a way to capitalize upon. If you cannot, and a lot of people are driven by this, and this is a little dirty secret that we do not, in fact, say like, bring up. But any doggone thing that we do in this country, there is only one motive that a whole lot of people have in doing it. And that is their hustling.
1:42:09
SM: Making a buck.
1:42:10
RJ: Making a buck. Now, let us go back to whether or not- I have been down to the wall, and I went down to the wall with a group of people from home. That is the only other, that is the only time everyone that comes very [inaudible]. And the reason we went down there is because I had several friends who came to visit, they wanted to see the wall. And we knew some people who were killed. And so we wanted to see if we could find their names, which we did. And yes, so therefore it is very moving. It provokes in you, it arouses any emotion within you. But in arousing of the emotion, just like all memorials, that is what they are supposed to do. They are supposed to make you remember. And so then some people have discovered, just as people had discovered with respect to, some people have even discovered with respect to the China thing is it called the Turner Diaries, is the guy who wrote the book with respect to the whole thing about terrorism, and they believe that Timmons- Timothy McVeigh read this book, and this guy is a professor-
1:42:17
SM: I think it is Turner Diaries, that is right.
1:43:06
RJ: The Turner Diar-, okay, everybody got a motive. Why would you want to write a book like that? You see, you want to write a book like that because it sells. Okay, there could be no other real motives. I mean, so then you got to, and why does the publishing company publish a book like that, because it sells. It has no redeeming value. So, we got a lot of stuff out here, that is that is and the boomers are halfway responsible for this. Because the boomers do believe in this, obviously, they have been coopted into believing it. And that is, if it is in fact, about so called free speech. And if it is, in fact, a marketable commodity, you do it. But there are a lot of marketable commodities out here, that we are, in fact, say like, probably going down a blind alley on, that we need to begin to take a look at a little bit more. So, but now, as long as we have the time, the immediacy of the internet and the immediacy of let us say the cyberspace it is going to be very difficult healing the- this thing for the next 20 odd years or 20 or 30 year, but I think Senator Muskies point was very well taken. We are still fighting the Civil War. We are still fighting the revolutionary war in this country, okay, this type of thing. So that healing has never occurred, I mean, has never completely taken shape. Okay, and you know, there is one book out that has said, and turns that the Hare Krishnas of all people wrote "Dope Incorporated." Have you ever seen that book?
1:44:55
SM: No.
1:44:56
RJ: Okay, well, anyway, it came out about 25 years ago, and they said in no uncertain terms that Great Britain was one of the major problems, in terms- and documented it pretty well- of the major reasons why we had such a drug problem in this country, I mean a drug problem this country and Great Britain, while it does have a drug problem, not as bad as here. And they actually did some-some research to show this, okay, but now the point is, so now that means about what I mean there I am simply saying that America, Great Britain has suffered in the US of A and got it was fight and all over the country now, that it does not commit any major troops or anything like that. You see what I mean? So, they are still fighting the Revolutionary War by in fact, one analysis, allowing the US of A to in fact, go around the world and police the world, fuck them.
1:45:46
SM: Yeah, good point. Going to make sure this is working here. [audio cuts] What are your thoughts on these former leaders of the left who have now totally condemned their past, are writing books like Cora Witts and [Peter] Collier, who decided that what they did in the past was totally wrong. And so, they have written books like "Destructive Generation," basic, condemning anybody that was ever involved in the left in the movement. And we have seen, I have seen quite a few of these books coming out recently. It is part of the, I guess, a good way of attacking the boomers in that era, and those who are involved in those types of issues.
1:46:25
RJ: Well, but I think it is also a part of becoming, if you may, going from one stage of the realization stage into the examination stage it is a process of growing old. It happens that people think back and reflect on things that they have done. So psychologically, what is happening there is there is a kind of a catharsis that is going on, cleaning out one's mind, giving it a different giving some things that one has done, it is a kind of a repentance, okay. I do not think that it can ever be helped. I mean, as Muhammad Ali said, great philosopher, a man who thinks the same way at 50, as he did at 20, has lost 30 years of his life. Okay, so then in that regard, I think it is it is impossible for one not to completely alter one's thoughts, by virtue of the process of living is a process of change, and one who invite things identically and does ident- well, if you think identically the way that you did at 20, if you do at 50, as you will at 50, then obviously, you going to act the same way. But if you alter that, and then so then therefore, some people are feeling that same pain that we are talking about that some of the people from Vietnam have experienced, they [inaudible] for documenting it, now I am not against people writing books, but I do know that there are some people who do not let things die, because, for example, they are hustling, okay. And there are some people who do it for a legitimate healing purpose. And that book that that person is writing probably is-is beneficial to other people who are still feeling the pain, because they do not have the medium to say it. So when they read it, they can, therefore cathart themselves, they can vicariously cathart.
1:48:22
SM: Good point there, how am I trying to hustle with this book.
1:48:24
RJ: That is okay. [Inaudible]
1:48:26
SM: The basic premise I have in this book is, I had not even thought about that I just want to do something to create better understanding, where you get a wide variety of perspectives, and to not be judgmental toward any individual that I am speaking to, is to let the others read these interviews, and let them judge to know that people are still thinking about it trying to create a better understanding between those who are for and against the war. Also, to try to understand where conservative liberals think today and how they are somewhat judgmental toward an entire generation. Where in reality, there is much more, you can never generalize anything, because it is a very complex issue-
1:49:05
RJ: That is right.
1:49:06
SM: -As everything is. What I am trying to do here in this next segment is to just give you some names of some individuals who were obviously well known to all boomers, they may not be known to some of our gen X people. But just some basic comments on your thoughts, whether you feel these people were positive or negative influences in America. And also secondly, what your thoughts might be in terms of how boomers may look at these individuals, not only then and now, the first two are Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda.
1:49:37
RJ: Again, from one perspective, they, they were very important during the early (19)70s, and so forth. But now, they tend to add credence to my hypothesis that we are, in fact driven by the buck. Because especially Miss Fonda, who has married one of the richest men in the country and one of the most powerful men in the world, and so forth. And she has all of her little mechanisms- she is selling her name. She is, that is her hustle, okay. So then so then therefore, I do not hear her talking, she may be using her money I therefore I cannot say she may be using her money to support social causes, rather than her making trips to Vietnam and places like this. She could very well be doing that. I do not know. But demonstrably now what I see her doing all the time is in the ballpark eating ice cream with Ted Turner. So then, and I have incidentally, I have one of her treadmills in my house. Okay, which is a non-motorized one. So I think it was a good treadmill. I like it is somebody telling me my doctor was saying one thing about Jane Fonda's treadmill is that they do not have any motor to break down them. And that was absolutely right, it was a darn good investment. So then I do have that. But now and Hayden is now doing his political thing. Is that right? In California,
1:51:01
SM: He is going to be at the convention this next week as a delegate for California.
1:51:04
RJ: Okay, fine. So then he decided that he was going when we, as a child, you act as a child, and when you become an adult, you throw those childish things away. So, then I got to say that I that does not surprise me. For a person who is rational, I do not expect that they would not fight, c'est la vie. Hayden would be more of an example of a person who, in fact, in my judgment, decided to keep his-his cars out for public scrutiny. It is a little bit difficult when Jane Fonda marries for example, as I say, somebody like Ted Turner, but I do not know what they do behind the scenes. See, I just do not know that. And when she is out front with marring him, and then all of a sudden, she retreats, apparently, I do not keep up with her daily itinerary, okay, so I cannot say.
1:51:54
SM: How about Lyndon Johnson?
1:51:56
RJ: Lyndon Johnson will always be remembered with a positive legacy, in my judgment, in terms of giving the little guy a shot, okay. And I think that he will singly in history go down as a president, to have done more to try to give the African America before we had all the other minority- a shot at a piece of the pie. I think he will go down in history as being a great politician as well, there is no question about it. He was a great politician. I think Lyndon Johnson, however, though, will be used by conservatives. And as he has been used now, there will be programs of the Great Society, the two that I know is still going on are Head Start and Upward Bound, okay, the rest of them have just devolved, been all wiped out. And they were designed to give the-the less fortunate people in our society, the more oppressed people in our society, an opportunity to get ahead. There is nothing like that anymore. So he, Lyndon Johnson's the thought of him still for the boomers who were committed to civil rights, and to human rights, still has a very special place in their hearts.
1:53:26
SM: But he was also caught up in that Vietnam trap, you know, the Vietnam War.
1:53:30
RJ: Yes. Yeah. In terms of the Vietnam War, it was obvious that it-it caught it was a precipitating event that caused him to actually resign from the pres- I mean to not seek the presidency again, okay. It is no question, and I think his failing health as well. But I think in terms of the historical period, that he could only do what his advisers were telling him to do. So then, therefore, it is just a matter of taking it and placing Lyndon Johnson with anybody else, and they would have done the same thing.
1:54:05
SM: How would you put John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy?
1:54:10
RJ: Kennedy always, but well both of them gave the aura of, gave the impression that they, too were for change. That is what I think they will both be remembered by. And they were also they gave the aura of the emergence of the of the, the emergence of the importance of youth in making decisions and playing a role in our society. And I think that that aura has, in fact continued on because before JFK, age did not appear to be that much of an issue about Presidents. But now that is definitely an issue and it has stayed with us for a long period of time, okay. So then and again, it was hoped, because here was a Catholic and a young person, and someone from New England who in fact could get to be president. So they get and his, and also it kept, it certainly kept with the both of them the whole notion that nepotism is a reality.
1:55:20
SM: How do you, this is a brief takeoff. That, that John Kennedy in particular is more of a pragmatic politician, and unless he was [inaudible] political pluses getting involved, for example, in the [inaudible] that was initiated by Harris Walker, who basically made that recommendation, and then, and certainly African Americans linked up with him, but he did not make a whole lot of decisions unless they were pragmatic. And so that was- he has been criticized as someone who was more pragmatic, sometimes Bobby Kennedy is looked upon as someone who was really evolving at the time in (19)68. A true compassion was really in Bobby as opposed to John, who was more pragmatic. You see that in between the two?
1:56:01
RJ: Well, we, Bobby for was not, Bobby was not inside the beltway type of politician. And maybe in Boston, he was okay. He was getting a B, I think, operating at that level, but he was kind of a hatchet man, kind of cruel. You know, in other words, and crude, I should say, kind of crude, and supposedly very cool, too. I mean, for people who knew him that he did not pull any punches, and so forth. So consequently, I think you are right there, he was an idealist at that point in time. But now another thing, while JFK was said to have been very practical, if you take a look at history, JFK is actually-actually was the driving force behind affirmative action, you will actually find that in terms of, he was getting ready to sign the executive order. He had, in fact, I am trying to think- was it Shultz? Whom was in fact say like, working under him at that time. But in June of (19)93, he was getting ready to issue the executive order, in June 22 (19)63. And he was actually kicked off our formative action, they actually use that word. And, and three months, four months later, he was assassinated. Now, a lot of folks do not know that, that in fact, it came into reality in terms of affirming, believe it or not, under Richard Nixon, when-when it was actually signed, it has never been a law. That was when most, you know, everybody always says affirmative action law. It was never a law. It was an affirmative action, an executive order 110243 or something like that. Look it up. But now, but JFK was the impetus behind that, all right. And if you take a look at that, then, so he had a lot of ideals, that while he was he was practical, and so forth. And he was sage, and he knew national politics, itself. And he will always be questioned about some of the decisions that he made, especially the Bay of Pigs thing, right. And that type of thing. He is always going to be suspect in history. And I do not, I do not know if, for example, 50 years from now, I really do not know if history is going to be good to JFK, okay. Because of all of the things that we do not know about the assassination that is eventually going to be known.
1:58:31
SM: That is right. I think it is supposed to come out in the year [inaudible], a long way off.
1:58:35
RJ: That is a long way off.
1:58:37
SM: It will be revealed then though, if the family is okay-ed it to be revealed. In fact, I think Teddy Kennedy is now the subject, I think Teddy Kennedy knows more than anyone, but he is you know, not going to reveal it to the world.
1:58:49
RJ: That is right. So, then I really do not think right now, what our perception of JFK is going, is now is certainly going to change once all of that all we know and all is known about that. That assassination is revealed.
1:59:04
SM: A couple other people here and I got quite a few of them, Huey Newton and Angela Davis. Now let me reflect that at the end I have had different commentaries from different individuals. Some people's whole slogan, you have heard this term, "Everybody has their 15 seconds or 15 minutes" [inaudible] what you comment, I have had one person who said that [inaudible] society at that time [inaudible] radical and Angela Davis, even though she was smart, and an intellect, is a communist. And I think what the term is, they had their 15 minutes of glory and that was it. How would you rate both Huey Newton and Angela Davis?
1:59:42
RJ: I think to, they meant different things to the Black intelligentsia, the Black intelligentsia boomers now, okay, see them as heroes. I am not so sure that they made that much a differen- and-and that a white intelligencia saw them as hero. That is right, I think it is a class thing here. I do not think that the- and the media, of course, they were exciting to follow and this type of thing. And but obviously, Huey Newton had a lot, and we are going to find out something else about that, it is questionable as to whether Huey Newton was killed the way he was killed. Huey Newton had very significant political implications in the state of California, among the Black intelligentsia. Huey Newton was in fact, when he was killed, had just I am told now, had just received a PhD.
2:00:44
SM: Yes. within about three to four months, and I have the book-
2:00:48
RJ: Was he going to get it or had just received it?
2:00:50
SM: I think he had his PhD.
2:00:51
RJ: Yeah, he had jus- yeah.
2:00:52
SM: And he was caught selling drugs? I could not I could not see the contrast.
2:00:55
RJ: No.
2:00:56
SM: Does not make any sense.
2:00:57
RJ: No, that was probably that- that was probably, that was very suspect. Just like we were saying about, I cannot think of, AD was that Martin Luther's brother, AD King?
2:01:09
SM: Oh, yes, the yes.
2:01:10
RJ: Yeah. Yeah, there is something suspect about that. And there is something suspect about what happened to Huey Newton. But Huey Newton was a very recognizable name and face in the state of California. And with his getting that PhD, it would ascend him to possible to the statute of Willie Brown, it would have. Huey Newton had more name recognition in the most popular state in the country than Willie Brown, among the black intelligentsia, and people of East LA, and, and people of San Diego, that whole Boomer generation there. So therefore, it was a reason why Huey Newton was killed.
2:01:11
SM: Yeah, who drowned. Of course, he was living in Oakland at the time.
2:01:55
RJ: Yes.
2:01:56
SM: Yeah, I can remember that, I can remember reading that he was shot to death walking down the street, and that did not make a lot of sense. I just, I could not, I just made no sense. And that was where right and that was the end of it.
2:02:08
RJ: I mean, that is the way to go, okay. Did it pop?
2:02:11
SM: Oh, no, that was [inaudible]
2:02:12
RJ: Okay. Okay, so now-
2:02:14
SM: And Angela, she is teaching the University of California Santa Cruz. She is there now as a full professor.
2:02:19
RJ: Okay. Now, again, Angela Davis. First of all, if people never did completely understand communism, and they do not know just how much communism we have going on in this country right now, when you really think about I think they were making a move yesterday was a major move and moving further away from communistic, if you may, economic principles in terms of welfare, but it is still limited. Communism is-is what Angela was, in fact, advocating for that time. And what is actually going on in this country is not that far away. We have more communism right now in the USA than they do in Russia. Right now. Okay, with the state provides more to people right now. See, we take away one thing, and that is when the state is providing that is the communism right. So, when you take away for example, one day, you take a wel- when you change your welfare laws, and you take them and you turn them around, but the next day you provide for universal medical care, Medicare, a medical-medical insurance, so then for all intents and purposes, you are just trading off one for the other. But and then you say you actually going to give a block grant to the states to run their welfare system for the bill that Clinton signed yesterday, that is nothing but typical communism. Okay, so then in that regard, it is another one those conceptual terms that incarcerate people to bring about, they keep this this conflict going. That we must have to have democracy. Because if everybody start saying, fire up the furnaces, we got a problem. Okay. I mean, I am talking about people got [inaudible] five departments for all the liberals, [inaudible] no, we should not have a one. So that is what the Founding Fathers, I think, did do in that great constitution, which is not a voluminous thing. And that is it provides to ensure that there is conflict. There is conflict.
2:04:25
SM: That is, seems to be getting stronger and stronger.
2:04:27
RJ: But guess what, you can never have a totalitarian state like that.
2:04:32
SM: That is right.
2:04:33
RJ: As long as you can keep conflict going, you will never have a totalitarian state. So many of the Supreme Court decisions that have in fact, say precipitated the area of one constituency, made another one feel good, and vice versa. So then in that regard, that is really what democracy, the lifeblood of democracy is conflict.
2:04:54
SM: And I will never forget when I was in California, the Bakke decision when that came out, I think in (19)79. Wow. The conflict was out there in the press and everything that happened at that time. Or the affirmative action decision in California right now. Yes.
2:05:10
RJ: Okay. And that is, that is bringing about a lot of conflict. But you have to live a while to get to where you can understand these things, okay.
2:05:19
SM: Well, and there is this I think there is some truth to this fact, too, that the more you know, the less you know.
2:05:23
RJ: And the more questions you write.
2:05:25
SM: Yes, definitely. Timothy Leary. Anything, your thoughts on him?
2:05:31
RJ: Hustler. [laughter]
2:05:35
SM: He has got a brand-new book out by the way.
2:05:37
RJ: Bless his, may his soul rest in peace, you know-
2:05:40
SM: His ashes are going to space, I think.
2:05:41
RJ: Is that right?
2:05:42
SM: Yeah, part of his ashes.
2:05:44
RJ: That was his desire?
2:05:46
SM: Yes.
2:05:46
RJ: Okay.
2:05:47
SM: I saw, I think the next space capsule, well his ashes are going to be going up there, in a satellite [inaudible] will be permanently up there.
2:05:54
RJ: Well, I, now that, Timothy Leary never really appealed to me back there in the early (19)70s I guess it was. It never, he really never appealed to me because I thought that it was almost like carnal knowledge. Okay, that he was taking advantage of young minds. Okay, for a self-hurting reason. I cannot see how spacing out on acid was going to have any redeemable effects on anybody. Okay. I mean, even on a chimpanzee or on a cobra or what have you is just not going to in fact have any-any human- a Cobra differently. But if you just put him out in the wild and give him an acid it would not have he could not de- or she could not defend him or herself. So consequently, I just never really got into that. And I think people use that to actually as a subterfuge to-to be in denial. Okay.
2:06:57
SM: How about people like Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin?
2:07:01
RJ: I think they served a purpose. I really do. I think that they are being at that convention, and what have you in (19)68. That convention was very important. That convention made people look at law enforcement and the power of people like Richard Dale. Okay, and in terms of say, the they were part of democratic society, Students for Democratic Society, were not they? What were the-
2:07:27
SM: They were the hippies.
2:07:28
RJ: They were the yippies, okay.
2:07:29
SM: Youth International Party.
2:07:31
RJ: Okay, fine. I think that they made people again, in terms of the role that they played, not just for in fact, say, getting away and moving to the hills and things of this nature. And so far, I do not think that that was necessary. I think it made people think about the alternatives. But I really do think that the that Abbie Hoffman and Rubin and the kind, and the publicity, they got in New York-New York, Chicago, and in that (19)68 convention, I believe that it actually had some impact, because it got international attention.
2:08:04
SM: How do you respond to the criticism of them that they never grew up? For example, Jerry Rubin although did change and was actually doing quite well. And say Ronnie, that he died doing something illegal, jaywalking in Los Angeles, he got hit by a car. But Abbie Hoffman killed himself just outside of Philadelphia couple of years back and he only had 2000 in the bank. He should have been very rich with all the lectures he had done, books he has written, gave, had given all his money away, wrote a note that when they found them that "No one was listening to me anymore." And that was why he killed himself. Now, I when I saw that, I says, "Is that symbolic of the boomers?" or at least those who were involved, no one has listened to them anymore. Or, or maybe a lot of them have gone on with their lives, but a lot of just a lot of those issues. Nobody has listened to those issues anymore. Some of them that still exist. So when you look at the death of an Abbie Hoffman, he was more true to his cause than Jerry Rubin who went into making a lot of money, whereas Abbie Hoffman went underground.
2:09:07
RJ: [Inaudible]
2:09:09
SM: Yeah, and then and then he was a Hudson, he was doing [audio cuts]
2:09:16
RJ: He was a, his testament was, in his last will and testament, "I want you to remember me as a spoiled brat," you know, he, and "I get people to listen to me, so I have a temper tantrum," and the temper tantrum was, I kill myself.
2:09:33
SM: That is a good observation, because somebody said that. Another person said that too, that. But do you think that getting apart from him, that some of those issues that were happening in the late (19)60s early (19)70s, that he, that maybe that message signifies our truth, that no one is listening anymore. In other words, there is no more racism anymore, or it is not as bad as it was back then. So, let us you know, it is, it is still got a long way to go for improvement. But it is not as it is not a major issue today. So thus, let us not, so that I think that is what he was trying to say there.
2:10:11
RJ: Well, it is still a major issue. And unfortunately, probably what he had done was that he was playing to the same crowd. And the same, reading the same data and recognizing that there were other forms of, of these issues. And if you look, if he had looked carefully enough, these are universally issues, even the issue of racism biblical antiquity, literature will in fact say, show you that racism was a reality, you know, years before Christ. So consequently, it will be a reality years and eons after we are in Saigon. So then, provided there is a world. Okay, now, that is a question. I mean, in terms of the environment, that is a very significant issue. So then, but he was not getting the responses probably that he got at one time because people are so bread and butter right now. And that is by being bread and butter. I mean, people just are not articulating, it is just like being a subscriber to a cable channel. It is so much dog- I mean, to a cable network of televisions and satellite- you got so much to choose from now. So, it is no sense in talking about did you see I Love Lucy last night, because hey, that is a stupid question as anybody now, okay, why. Because it got so many darn choices.
2:11:34
SM: That is right.
2:11:35
RJ: But see, it used to be you had to, at one time you see mom and dad all looked at the NBC channel. But even I just think I am not even getting into ABC. I remember what it was only NBC. Right, then that was CBS and ABC. So you had three, then it was a UHF channel. But now, now, it is stupid, everybody got so many other things that they are consuming, that he missed the boat, that he had begun, he was still believing egotistically that he was the center of the universe.
2:12:05
SM: That is a good point. I got quite a few of these here, Richard Nixon.
2:12:13
RJ: Well, Nixon, interestingly, apparently is perceived as somebody very significant in history. And the reason I said that is when I looked along his gray side when they televised his film, first of all, he as the president was ostensibly disgraced. And when they had his funeral in San Clemente, they had all of those debates or dignitaries that he ever knew and who had ever been anything in Washington, and all the networks carried. Okay, now that says something about it, about Richard Nixon, the man. It is no question about it, that he was on an ego trip as well. But interestingly, from a perspective of an African American man, Nixon is going to, history will show in terms of the chronicle, that African Americans made more progress under Nixon than any other president. That data are available with respect to housing, with respect to jobs, with respect to money, with respect to the SBA with respect to the 8(a) project that was developed to give Black people, at that time that was before it was women and minority was for Black people. Okay, this section 8(a) of the Small Business Act of (19)69 or, I think it was or (19)71, it is going to show that, okay. Black colleges did better under Richard Nixon than any other president. A lot of folks do not know that. So he was so slick, that he could have he could have things going. And that was why he had the name Tricky Dick. Okay, he has things going that history is going to be good to Nixon on. And that Nixon also, in fact, is going to show that he did in fact, have, he started this whole thing of over coordinating dealing with China and the, the Soviet Union. Okay, he is going to get credit for that, all right. So then we look at it realistically and empirically, I think history is going to be good to Nixon. If you look at what it meant to Black people at the time, I am not sure that how much of this did not ride in on the crest of the waves from the residual of Lyndon Baines Johnson, okay, because, and I could have insights on that. But now in the way he was operating, apparently, in the White House, it was obviously criminal what he was doing and he knew it and that was why he had been invited to go ahead and resign rather than be impeached. Okay, so now there is no question about that, he overextended his power is no question. But it does appear as though he was actually making a resurgence. People were giving him a lot of credit and so forth for the things that, calling upon his ambassadorship, free will ambassadorship that he was-was capable of doing. But at the time that he was in office, most African American and significant number of American people really were suspect of him. He never was completely really trusted.
2:15:17
SM: Those enemies list, remember the enemies list?
2:15:20
RJ: Yeah, I know. [crosstalk] on there do we start talking about empirical growth and development and things that happened, history is going to be good to Nixon. Things happened when he was president.
2:15:34
SM: He had that amazing quality of [audio blip] all throughout his life and towards the end.
2:15:40
RJ: And given and giving and getting things done. Nixon, things got done under Nixon. That was just very interesting. I think history is going to be good to him.
2:15:53
SM: A lot of people here include George McGovern, your thoughts on him?
2:15:58
RJ: Too good. Okay. McGovern was seen as I mean, it was a backlash, that McGovern was always a very intellectually astute man. I think he had an excellent mind. Had was a, was a great senator, South Dakota, right?
2:16:20
SM: [agreement]
2:16:21
RJ: Great senator from South Dakota, excellent for representing his state. But not for in fact say like, I mean for, now this the way I saw him, but not in fact say, for representing where America was at that time. Americans were still ambivalent about the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War was, it will be seen that it ended under Nixon, you know that. So consequently, Nixon was on a roll at the time. And McGovern was seen as too weak to middle cla- so I was in Ohio at the time. The people in Columbus, they just saw him as a very weak person, and I am talking about white and Black, predominantly white people. I saw him in my judgment as being very weak. And they did not want that perception of a leader at that time, okay. And they did not want an intellect that that at that time. The economy, or we were coming off of, it was unsure, and they were taut and nothing we had to wage and price stuff. Remember that? Yeah, when they froze wages and froze prices at the store, the inflation was zooming. You know?
2:17:32
SM: I was at the Columbus airport when he came there because I just graduated from Ohio State and was that my first job at Ohio University at Lancaster.
2:17:38
RJ: Okay, yeah.
2:17:40
SM: And I remember driving out to the [inaudible] driving out to that airport with [inaudible] I could not see him. He did not even hardly leave the plane area, got off, spoke and then he took off [laughs] but I remember that as plain as day. Eugene McCarthy. Intellect, extremely bright, too bright for the public. Or to understand. He was even a poet, you know? Yeah, he wrote poetry, lotta folks did not know that, okay. True. Good senator. For representing what was that- Wisconsin?
2:18:16
RJ: Minnesota.
2:18:16
SM: Minnesota. I knew it was one of them, okay. Right, [inaudible] this senator for representing that body of people. But the Americans could never buy into anybody that genteel. Let us see, Martin Luther King Jr.
2:18:32
RJ: History will be very good to Dr. King. He did he represented hope for the country. He is a, he is a credit to America will always be in a credit to America. His philosophies will at one time be quoted just as Mahatma Gandhi's or Chairman Mao, I think that there will become Qingyan philosophy school, that will eventually get there. And I think that is in fact, what were young African Americans will eventually open up in terms of nonviolence in everything that they do, that that is going to catch a hold. And he gave again, he had a lot of theological impact with respect to his outreach ministry, caused all churches to in fact be different and to put, and caused the Vatican to look at things differently. And also, his ministry. And the and his leading the ministry redefined what a minister is supposed to be about. And furthermore, he will always be remembered as the champion of human rights. I think that what he did for human rights, is-is probably not, is underrated in terms of, of the movement. If you look at solidarity, and if you look at the slogan, and if you look at the [inaudible] raids, and you know what I mean, and that type of thing, and if you look at their singing We Shall Overcome and things of this nature, that has become the battle cry for everybody who is perceived to have been say, oppressed. So the human rights movement was, was spawned from that Civil Rights movement which Civil Rights, and Martin Luther King will always be remembered synonymous.
2:20:29
SM: As I said, from going in his church down in Atlanta, the embodiment of what he was all about, and certainly what his dad is all about. I am sure a lot of churches had the same feeling. But the Ebenezer has to know that. We are all appreciated. We are all equal. There were no judging of anyone. And certainly, Reverend Robert could be proud, and certainly Reverend Victor, King has got to be in his glory. Seeing the Reverend Victor there, that young minister and [audio blip] coming minister, in fact there is several of them. Barbara Jordan when she died, you may have seen the funeral on C span. The minister in Houston, Texas, what a young man he is, the early (19)30s out of New York City, who was not, was her minister, and one of the most important qualities that she possessed is that when she came to that church as she was a, well, she was a well-known figure that could have sat in the front pew. But she wanted to be treated like [audio blip] that was what they came into. She had these great qualities about her, but she was a petite. [audio blip]
2:21:31
RJ: Wow.
2:21:31
SM: Queen of the people, she was of the people. So, just a couple other names, and we got a couple of questions that end it here. Robert McNamara, just a few thoughts on it, obviously some of these people are.
2:21:43
RJ: Well, Robert McNamara. Great rhetorician, had an excellent mind, will not be remembered as a great secretary of defense because of the Vietnam War. Okay. On the other hand, was extremely persuasive, had awesome power. Okay, with respect to the Johnson administration, and so forth, and Johnson, right? Yeah, he was the Johnson admin- he will, but he will not be remembered as a great secretary of defense because the Vietnam War, but had a lot, had the ability to handle a lot of information, which was persuasive and kept the American people kind of ambivalent about whether they ought to support the war or not support the war. You know, he was a, if you remember, the one thing I remember about him that he reminds me and maybe Ross Perot picked up some things from him was that he was so good with charts and graphs and things like that, you know.
2:22:52
SM: To the General Motors, because that was where he came from.
2:22:54
RJ: Yeah.
2:22:55
SM: And the- a whiz kid at General Motors.
2:22:56
RJ: Right.
2:22:57
SM: Of which, if you read that book, four of them killed themselves, committed suicide, of the original 10. [audio blip] Wizkid General Motors, where they came from, because he [audio blip] have the money in that position, why he went to, became Secretary of Defense to earn what? 50, 60 thousand, well he already made his money. But it was interesting that the four of the 10 killed themselves. [audio blip] Hubert Humphrey.
2:23:24
RJ: Great, again, great senator from Minnesota, too genteel for the country. At the time that he was coming out, people he, he was victimized by the ambivalence again, that people had about the Vietnam War, and so forth. He was victimized because he was trying to succeed I will say JFK, and I do not think that, you know, at that time, he just was history, the epoch in history where he was, did not allow him to in fact say, like, do what I think he has the potential to do. But then again, I do not think that he was ever, he was not electable in Calif- I mean, California was not going to be for him, Ohio was not going to be for him and things of this nature. He was a good senator, but he was not the one that dealt, he was not going to be able to operate on a on a national stage.
2:24:27
SM: How about George Wallace?
2:24:28
RJ: George Wallace, he repented, but I am not so sure he would have repented, if in fact, say like he had not been made a quasi, let us say, invalid. So then he did nothing good for the country at that time. I do not see any redeemable value that George Washington played for the country during that he was divisive-
2:24:55
SM: Wallace, not Washington.
2:24:56
RJ: I meant as I said, I mean Wallace. Yeah, you know what I meant, yeah, okay. George [laughter] George Wallace did at that time, okay, so consequently, that is one of the character traits that I would have to look at in terms of saying so called national leaders. And he was very divisive. He was a racist. Wherever he is now he is a racist, it is just that he is not, he is probably trying to in fact say, like, repent by virtue, obviously- he is still living right.
2:25:28
SM: Oh he is not very well.
2:25:29
RJ: No, I know, but just barely hanging on. Yeah. So then in that regard, wherever he is, now, he is at the core, I would like to think that he has forgiven himself and therefore is not a racist right now. Okay, he did make some statements that suggest, I read somewhere a few years ago, that he was not a racist anymore and this type of thing. But he was hustling, that was what he was doing. He found him a concept on which he could hustle and hustled that racist concept.
2:25:31
SM: Yeah. How about the Berrigan brothers and Dr. Benjamin Spock?
2:26:06
RJ: I think the priests- both of them were priests, right?
2:26:09
SM: Yeah.
2:26:09
RJ: Okay. I think they were committed to what they were doing because they took some real chances, in terms of being involved in actually violent demonstrations, were not there?
2:26:20
SM: Yeah, and they were responsible for burning the draft cards.
2:26:23
RJ: Yeah, I remember that. And then dumping blood somewhere, or at least some bolly blood, I do not know, if it really blood in some, one of the draft stations or something. I think they were very committed, okay, to what they were doing, and that they and to, in fact, go against the edicts of the church to do it, the Catholic Church. I think that they, that showed their commitment. They therefore would have to say, would be considered as somebody that did have an impact on ending the war. And but of course, you could say that they also had an impact on people having a bitter taste in their mouth about the war. Okay. Now Dr. Spock provided this catechism that insight, in my judgment, a lot of parents, he has reversed his field now. This permissiveness that he talks about and advocated. He has now run a recent talk shows as well, I have not read anything that he has done.
2:27:19
SM: He has a book out in 19, uh, came out a year ago, hardback.
2:27:23
RJ: Okay. Have you read it?
2:27:24
SM: No, I have not read it. They say he has, he has changed [audio blip]
2:27:29
RJ: I think that he was misguided. In terms of say, he gave people some real deleterious advice on how, about child rearing. There is no question about it. This permissiveness that we know of now, and what some parents are still hung up on, okay. Really did foster a lot of their misguided thoughts.
2:27:50
SM: How about Muhammad Ali?
2:27:52
RJ: Will go down in history as one of the greatest fighters, obviously, but a great humanitarian, who was extremely courageous. And because he was one of the first, he was the first public figure that spoke out and said he was against the ware, okay. So again, and that was very much, that was 19, I know I will not forget it, that was (19)63. When he was saying whenever he was drafted, he preempted the war. And when he was drafted, said that he was not going to go, if I am not mistaken, it was about that time.
2:28:27
SM: I think it was, I am not sure the exact time- you are right, though, everything- I am not sure the exact time he came to Columbus. When I saw him in Columbus. And when I was working at Ohio University, he had been stripped of his title.
2:28:39
RJ: Yeah.
2:28:40
SM: And he came to-
2:28:40
RJ: He came back.
2:28:40
SM: -the daycare center and he spoke at the Ohio theatre and what [inaudible], because man, the people of Columbus, well the sort of nature that that city was, they did not come out in large numbers.
2:28:42
RJ: No.
2:28:42
SM: I was there in an upstairs area, he was paid $5,000. It is a memory I will never forget. He spoke as a really good speech about his protest against the war in Vietnam. He did not talk hardly anything about boxing or anything, it was all about the war. And after it was all over, he took the $5,000 that he was paid and said, "I do not want anything here. You can take it." And that is the person he was.
2:29:11
RJ: And people never saw, they saw the flamboyant side that he was, but if you look at some of his history, and what have you, he had a heart of gold. Okay. And everybody saw him and but not everybody else has repented on him. History, the current contemporary history is being good to him and I think it is going to even be better to him, as was attested to his being selected to light the charge at the at the Olympics. Okay, I think that was symbolic of just how much the world loves Muhammad Ali.
2:29:44
SM: He is the most recognized person in the entire world.
2:29:46
RJ: That is right.
2:29:48
SM: John Kennedy is probably the second or third because they Kennedy and Muhammad Ali's pictures, like in villages all over the world in the smallest places. And when you think of it Kennedy, has been dead since (19)63. And Muhammad Ali has been out of the limelight since the late (19)70s. That is just amazing. I, you kind of wonder too what, if Muhammad Ali did not have Parkinson's disease, and he was able to speak, he would obviously be [inaudible] more mature, what he could be doing and helping today's society. I want to make sure I got a couple of key questions at the end and I want to make sure I do not use all of [ inaudible] getting down there. And that was my last, couple other names here, you can just, just a couple of brief words on all of them, Spiro Agnew.
2:30:06
RJ: Yeah [inaudible] No redeeming values [laughs] as I can see a whatsoever to the time that he was in office except to make people see how bad it could be.
2:30:46
SM: Okay. Sam Ervin.
2:30:49
RJ: Great man, I was very always intrigued by his simplicity. And that he could speak volumes with very, very parsimoniously and his use of a southern parable. And the way that he would always have kind of a self-demeaning type of humor about him, that lets you that will allow you to know that he has already seen where you are coming from.
2:31:18
SM: One of the important things, I got a couple of books by him and one of them is signed. And that is, that he was against integration.
2:31:26
SM & RJ: At one time.
2:31:28
SM: So, when you look at this, this senator who really no one knew about until sort of the latter part of his life, and see some of the people, there people always, that is another thing about today, you always got to find the negative in something, you can never, you cannot be perfect.
2:31:43
RJ: That is exactly right.
2:31:44
SM: John Dean.
2:31:49
RJ: John Dean was, he was at that time, I guess you could say, he was what you would consider where most boomers were at that period in their lives, and that is doing whatever was necessary to acquire power. And that was why I saw him, that he was being used, that he in fact cut a deal to save his neck obviously, as most people will do. So that is not anything that bothers me.
2:32:24
SM: [Inaudible] doing it now.
2:32:25
RJ: Yeah, that is exactly right. Cutting a deal to save his neck. And, but on the other hand, obviously very bright. Okay, but it was he had him a hustle and he was trying to get the best out of it.
2:32:39
SM: How about Daniel Ellsberg.
2:32:40
RJ: He had a lot of redeeming value in my judgment. He took he put his career on the line for what he was about, okay. And he knew that they were that there was going to be a backlash. The president cannot even get to a job in Washington, if you are blackballed. You know, it is just that powerful. If you blow the whistle, believe me, right now the president cannot get you a job. So then when a guy decides to do that, the only way the President gives you a job is that he says "Yes, I am going to put you on his staff or one of his [inaudible] staff, or get somebody somewhere else to give you a job" but you, it is hard to in fact say, once you a whistleblower, is difficult to get a job in the city.
2:33:27
SM: How about Barry Goldwater?
2:33:33
RJ: Goldwater I do not think was as bad as people thought he was when he came across as if though he was a, you know, a butthole. But I do not think he was as bad as people really thought he was at the time. I am not so sure history is going to be that bad to Goldwater, okay. When-when it was finally written, and people read it and do they interpretations. And if they look at the type of man that Goldwater was, and he did give a lot of himself to Arizona and things of this nature. He was very partisan, obviously. And that respect, he may not he was not-not going to be good for the country. But I think that is some stuff prior to his becoming Senator it is more speaks more about him, than when he became Senator. And his running for president was obviously about public relations disaster.
2:34:31
SM: [Audio blip]
2:34:39
RJ: Kind of say for example, I guess you can say that she was charming. She may got the she got the title of being kind of the, I guess you can say the maid of women's liberation and so forth, but in a way she was she was charming just enough to take away some of the credence from the women's liberation thing. I always thought that she was kind of manipulative, and that she really was not as staunch a feminist as she projected.
2:35:21
SM: And Ralph Nader.
2:35:24
RJ: I think Mr. Nader has done a lot for consumer protection. I really do, and for consumer causes. He lives what he preaches, he lives in a rooming house, you know.
2:35:34
SM: He does?
2:35:35
RJ: Yeah, he has.
2:35:36
SM: Where does he live?
2:35:38
RJ: I do not know where he live, but I know this. He lives in a boarding house. He has done this for the last 30 some years. He does not. I do not think he owns a car. You know, this type of thing. So, he is practicing what he is preaching, okay. So consequently, I got to in fact say there is some substance to a man that is practicing frugality, and right, and what have you, and living as I do not know what he does with the money that he makes, whether or not it gives it back to charity or what have you but he certainly does not seem to be in fact say-say [inaudible]
2:36:12
SM: I think that is all the names I had in the last, little area here is just mentioning Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin and musicians of the year and the impact they had on boomers.
2:36:26
RJ: Well, I think it was a fad akin to rock music- I mean, rap music. I think that the youngsters nowadays, who will into rap music, is will always have an affinity toward it, because it was the music of their era. Just like for example, the Temptations and say the Four Tops and the Supremes were to me. You see what I mean. Therefore, I think it would be that affinity and drugs have always been a part of the modern musician's life, so then we do not really see it, and we almost kind of accepted that they are going to get caught up in the drugs and that some of our favorite heroes are going to in fact succumb to it, just like right now. Of all of the original Temptations are dead, okay. And-and I do not think any of them, Melvin Williams died last year, year before last, the one that had to base voice. And-and I do not think he was, I do not believe he was 50. He may not have been 50, but now okay, the rest of them all gone. And because they were alcoholics and things and Jerry, not Jerry but David rough and you know, was-was that is crack addicts up there, Philadelphia.
2:37:42
SM: Yeah, I remember that.
2:37:43
RJ: Yeah.
2:37:44
SM: Yep. Here, we got a little bit left and I still got another tape if we go over here.
2:37:50
RJ: I am going to have to cut it now see because, I mean after [inaudible] I am going to have to make it I got to get back home to my- I tell my wife I would be back by that time, okay.
2:38:00
SM: What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation?
2:38:02
RJ: I think, I really do think it is going to be kind of the, probably it is going to be the, the freedom the "I" and the "me," is and that is the infamous one that it will have. The quest for the freedom. I think I think it will get a bad rap about how their children are turning out. I think that they will, the boomer generation is going to be overall seen as-as being a poor parental generation. I think they will be seen as being money hungry. You know, like yuppy. Okay. I think the yuppies is in that generation, is not it?
2:38:58
SM: Yeah.
2:38:59
RJ: Yeah. So, I think they are going to be seeing-
2:39:00
SM: Younger. The younger boomers.
2:39:03
RJ: The younger boomers?
2:39:04
SM: Not so much the older ones. Yeah.
2:39:06
RJ: Yeah, if you take [inaudible] from (19)46 to (19)60, right? (19)64. To (19)64. Those are the boomers. Okay, now, if you take that group, and if you take a look at them from what I have in fact saying, they are going to be yeah money hungry, money oriented. That is how I think we are going to see it, power hungry, self-centered.
2:39:39
SM: Is that the-the activism that took part in the boomer generation has transferred to their kids?
2:39:48
RJ: I do not think that children are active at all. Maybe the most sedentarian social issues of any generation. Well since-since Brown versus the Board- well, that is it, that is two generations [inaudible] they-they are they are the children are definitely less active, socially active than their parents.
2:40:09
SM: What do you think it is when their parents? What-what?
2:40:13
RJ: Parents, they have not had a need.
(End of Interview)
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Title
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Interview with Dr. Roosevelt Johnson
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Johnson, Roosevelt ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Psychologists; College teachers; Johnson, Roosevelt--Interviews
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<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Roosevelt Johnson was a psychologist, counselor, educator, and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D. at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana. Dr. Johson died in 2015."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson (d. 2015) was a psychologist, counselor, educator, and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC, and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D. at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana.</span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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ND
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.179a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.179b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.179c
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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160:18
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1af3a49383c69edca75990b94228125e.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Mildred (Mit) Joyner
Duration
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93:12
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
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Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor's degree in Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master's degree in Social Work from Howard University. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor's degree in Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master's degree in Social Work from Howard University. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Civil rights movement; voting; social worker; Baby boom generation; retirement; activism; African-Americans; Black Panther; Freedom Summer; \r\nMillion Man March\r\n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4993,"3":{"1":0},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Civil Rights Movement; Voting; social worker; Baby boom generation; Retirement; Activism; African-Americans; Black Panther; Freedom Summer; Million Man March; Senator Edmund Muskie; Civil War Generation; Confederate Flag; Generation Gap; WWII; Joseph L. Galloway; Trust.<br /><br /></span>
Subject LCSH
Social service; College teachers; Community activists; West Chester University of Pennsylvania; Joyner, Mildred (Mit)--Interviews
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Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Mit Joyner
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: Not dated
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
MJ (00:00:00):
[inaudible].
SM (00:00:07):
First, I want to take this opportunity and thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to answer some questions. As a reminder, the reason why I am doing this project is to do oral history interviews of approximately, hopefully, between two and 300 different people. Some people are very well known in history. Some people are not known. But the goal is to try to combine two things with each of these interviews. Number one, the personal experiences of these individuals that I am interviewing, and also as they reflect on the history of this year and the impact of the boomer generation on AmeriCorps in the last 30 years. And I guess the first question I really want to go into is recently, probably the last couple years, we have heard a lot of commentary, a lot of criticism of attacks on the boomer generation, the generation of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the generation that a lot of people historically linked to the ending of the Vietnam War, the involvement in civil rights, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, Latino movement, as many movements as possible. But the criticism is pretty central on the whole generation as to the reasons that the breakdown of America is being blamed on them. So what I am trying to get from each of the interviewees, and that is the first question I want to ask you, what are your thoughts when you hear people who will generalize about the boomer generation as the reason why we have problems in America today, like the breakup of the family, the increase of drugs, a lot of the issues, and they all seem to go right back to the time when boomers were in their youth? And of course, these boomers are categorized as people born between 1946 and 1964. So your thoughts on these generalizations that are oftentimes leveled at a whole generation?
MJ (00:01:51):
Well, basically, generalizations to me are just that, generalizations. I thought that the (19)60s and the (19)70s brought with it its own empowerment and empowerment to do different things. And some of those things were things that people in our society now would classify as negative things. But on the whole, it really was a positive time because it brought about the empowerment of each group feeling good about their own particular culture. And so for the very first time, we were dealing with more of a strength perspective. And I know at that particular time, I was in high school... started school in the (19)50s and then going all the way through college. And it was not until I went to Central State University that I really saw the empowerment of that movement. And sure, we were going through our own, which White says, our own conversion experience. And by that, what White says is that you go through five stages, and there was a negro to black conversion experience where it was a pre-encounter stage where you just did things because people told you how to do them. And then it kind of moved into an encounter stage where you realized that there was no... The equity in our society only existed for a few. And the immersion stage, which I think our race went through collectively from the (19)60s to the (19)70s, was to immerse yourself about and learn about your race. And that was at the exclusion of everything else. And then came out your immersion stage where people were really stronger in our society. And the fourth stage is the internalization stage, where you internalize those good values and throw away those bad values that you learned. And then obviously, the fifth stage is your internalization commitment stage. Well, as a race of people went through this, there were a lot of negative things that occurred during the immersion stage. There was burning of bras, the burning of draft things, drugs, free life and all that. But I think what emerged was a much stronger group of people. So when people say that to me about, "Look what your generation brought," it brought some negative things, but that was necessary in order to move to a stronger group of people. And so everything has a yin and a yang. And so the yin and the yang of that was, yes, it brought about a freer society, but I would rather have freedom than to have the rigid society that we were experiencing before World War II.
SM (00:04:28):
Let me just... [inaudible] the next question. If you were to look at again from your own personal perspective, your own metaphor... A lot of the reasons why we are doing this is everybody has their own metaphor, and not to be pre-judgmental of any person's beliefs. How would you categorize this generation right now in 1997 in terms of its overall impact on America?
MJ (00:04:57):
It is a generation that is trying to find its people, trying to find out what are the values that are collectively right for our nation. I think they are a generation of triers. And with people who have... probably the first group of people who have major obstacles that are outside race, gender, and class, but technology and access to power through money. And so I think they are trying to build a nation that is equal for all people, but there is just so many obstacles that are in young people's ways.
SM (00:05:41):
... thing is when you look at today's boomers, they are the parents of today's college students, the person who works with college student’s day in and day out, and of course you teach students. Do you think, from your own personal experiences, that the boomer parents have really shared the experiences of their youth with today's college students? Because what we see is only 18 percent of today's college students, according to a Chronicle of Higher Education poll who have an interest in politics, we see a low numbers of young people voting. Their parents do not vote. And here it was during that generation that the fight was for the right to vote. What impact are boomers having on today's college students, not just college students because half the people do not go to college, but on today's youth?
MJ (00:06:26):
Again, I can only speak about this from my perspective, but because I am a believer of what people fought in the civil rights movement for us, we are voters in our family, and my kids vote. When it is voting day, my husband and I just say, "It is voting day, and all of you go to the booths and vote. We do not care what you vote." But we ask them a little bit about, the night before, what about the candidates and why they are making the choices that they do. We are a very political family with my husband's job in terms of being on the federal bench. And the only way he was able to get there was through people voting him on the ballot when he was getting on the county bench. So I think in our family system, we have a very political family. And again, I believe that apples do not fall far from the tree. And so I do not know if it is today's boomers who are not teaching kids to go to the ballot box, but I can say in my family, it was very important for my father that I go, and I do not miss a chance, even when it is awful years, and there is really not that much as people say to vote for. And I think I am giving that value to my children, and I would hope that they would carry it on. I think they understand that one vote does count, and we often show them and analyze the next day in the paper of how many people lost the school race just based on the fact that such very few people voted. And we are also trying to teach them the power of the vote, that if they really wanted to run for something, and they were able to get their contemporaries to vote for them, most likely because of the apathy that is in our country right now, that they could probably win the ballot. So we preach that.
SM (00:08:10):
Would you say though, that within your personal experience then, this has been a very important part of your life? You share the experiences to transfer this importance of the vote, being involved as a citizen in this country. But as you look at the students that you teach, your everyday dealings with today's college students, and even your peers who are boomers, are they failing in this area? Not you personally, but are they failing?
MJ (00:08:34):
I think so. I think a lot of people in our society find it too easy to switch about something and not really bring change. Even here in the social work department, we try to teach the value of voting. That is because that is a philosophy that we hold here. So I will say to my students, "Bring back your little voting ticket and show us that you voted, and we will give you a test for that," to encourage people to... And we talk about the platform because social work is made up of those individuals who we have a responsibility to speak for who are powerless. So it is real hard for me to talk about my colleagues because most of my colleagues that are involved... Let me turn this off. Most of my colleagues that are involved with that decision... In social work, we teach voting. And so most of my colleagues are social workers. So most of the time... And it would be interesting to do a study of how many social workers really do vote, but because our job is to, and part of our code of ethics is to, speak out on people who are not able to speak out from themselves due to lack of wealth or what their life circumstance is, the whole profession teaches a commitment of the ballot box. And so being social workers have to be involved because we speak for the poor. I mean, that is part of our code of ethics.
SM (00:09:59):
If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, and I say that we know that within the boomers, which is from (19)46 to (19)64, there is intergenerational differences. Like boomers who were born towards 64 have a hard time, I believe, personally, in terms of relating with those born (19)46, say, to (19)56. Could you give us some characteristics, some adjectives to describe the boomers, the positive qualities of the boomers and some of the negative qualities?
MJ (00:10:29):
Some of the positive ones, qualities of a boomer, is commitment, the ability to move up the system. Most people are doing better than their parents. Materialistic. That can be an asset and a liability. Caring. Instant need for gratification. Again, an asset or a liability. And I guess the one that I really like is that they are transcendent. They have the ability to go beyond what is expected. And so the negatives of that are sometimes they are workaholics or they have some kind of addictive part of their personality due to the needs of to show out and be the best. And I think their transcending character sometimes has caused health problems, really not able to enjoy family the way they wanted to.
SM (00:11:37):
If you look at some of the ideas that young people had in that time... Say for example, picture yourself on a college campus, whether it be a predominantly African American campus or a white campus of the mid to late (19)60s and early (19)70s. There seemed to be a sense of empowerment among young people that we are going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. We are the most unique generation in American history. We are not going to stand for the status quo. There is something wrong in this nation, and we are going to right it. And then as these boomers got older, Vietnam War ended, civil rights is still an ongoing issue, but you did not see the Dr. Kings out there like we used to have. As boomers went into their (19)70s and then into the (19)80s and now into the mid to late (19)90s here, have they kept those ideals or how would you rate this generation?
MJ (00:12:45):
Well, I would give it about a 95. I think most people are successful. They are doing better than they ever thought so. Now, what does better mean? Does better mean they are doing better economically? Yes. Has that caused them to work more and be more self-centered? Yes. Have they changed their vision? Yes. Have they given in to establishment? Yes. I think that the boomers have learned that there are certain things that are status quo and that the way to change the system, what we thought before was just to change that system through not participating or just demanding a change, we now realize that you have to work within the system to get change. So I think their vision has changed. They have become more proactive rather than reactive. And I do not really write a lot of them off because I know a lot of people that I went to Howard University with and Central State University that are tops in their field. And they would have never been able to have that prior to the (19)60s or the (19)70s. But their love for politics is not which we thought it was, but back then, a lot of people did not participate in politics anyway. I mean now they are at least voting. But I mean, I just look at where they have come, and I worry about that for my own children because I do not really think that they will ever have a level of success, this generation, that our generation was privileged to have. And so I feel this generation is going to have to learn how to settle for less. We all have our own homes, two and three cars, several people have summer homes. What happens to this generation? Because I think they kind of bottomed out. I mean, I think that they go back to wanting less. The charge card is starting to own them. And so I worry about that, but I think I would give them a 95.
SM (00:14:46):
When you say 95, though, certainly you are thinking about your metaphor, the people that you know, but it is also a known fact that when Tim Penny was on our campus, he said one of the biggest failures of the boomers was the fact that they do not know how to save, that the average savings account for a 50-year-old is less than $10,000. They may have a home, but they see marriages were late. Kids were raised late. They are putting kids through college up to 60. So we are talking about people that are doing well, but they actually have nothing in the bank. They are like three payments away from being in bankruptcy almost. So we are dealing with a lot of concerns. Now, that is just from a political standpoint, but it is-
MJ (00:15:31):
Again, but that is two cultures that I think clash. That is the culture of my parents who believe that you have to have money in the bank to save. And then there is the culture of the boomers who spend what they get, acquire assets, and can download those assets. So a lot of times savings, because you watch banks just kind of eat up your money and play games with your money... And there is also the need. I said instant gratification is something that I think boomers have. There is a need to go on a vacation rather than to save every penny you have for the next 20 years because a lot of us have watched our parents die at a young age without ever getting the things that they worked for. And so I think you see two cultures that clash a lot, the clash of our parents' culture, who you save things, and you do not have anything until you can pay for it. And then it is this that has learned how to use the market of credit. And it is probably this generation's living longer than our parents' generation because we do not work as hard, or at least at times we work very hard, but we give ourselves the rewards for it. And so that may mean debt for some people, but our generations learned the system of how to pay off a debt, bankruptcy. And that is why you have more debt.
SM (00:16:51):
Would you say that some boomers, like some parents live toward retirement, the World War II generation, they look forward to retirement, that boomers oftentimes may not believe they will even survive to retirement? Do you think there is some perception there?
MJ (00:17:04):
Or they choose not to retire. I think we realize that retirement... A lot of us are workaholics and retirement brings with it some kind of settlement of having to realize that. It also does not give us the dollars to live the lifestyle that you want. And it sure does say that you are not worthy. I mean, in American society, unless you are working, you are really not a worthy person. And there is too much stats to read that Alzheimer's and people forgetfulness and all that occurs once one person retires. So I think there is a fear of retirement, not just because of the economics, but because of the vitality that the boomers always see themselves as.
SM (00:17:45):
Two basic issues are central to the lives of boomers. We know statistically that only about 15 percent of the young people, when they were young in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, were involved in any kind of activism. But I have always been of the perception that even the 85 percent who were not involved were subconsciously affected by that period and may have been late bloomers in terms of getting involved with these kinds of issues in their everyday lives. These two issues, of course, being the Vietnam War and civil rights. Certainly the women's movement and a lot of the movements took place. But when you think of this period, you think of the activism in those two areas. In your own opinion, do you believe that the students on college campuses... Why did the Vietnam War end, in your opinion? Was it because of the protests on college campuses, or was it something else?
MJ (00:18:38):
I think it is because the America was losing, and there was a shame because we were losing. And I think that we felt that for a long period of time that we would have the ability to win that war. And when we realized that there was no way that we could win that war, we pulled out and brought our boys back home. I think the idea of finally coming to terms with the fact that we were losing was brought on by a lot of the protests on college campuses because we realized we were just sending people over there and they were dying for what? And if we were winning, we would have probably had a different feeling about it. But just looking at the many people that I knew that went to Vietnam, for what? It was a country that had had its own way of fighting a war through underground, of which our men had no knowledge about. And we really did not have an understanding of why we were there. So I think that college campuses brought out that, and the citizen who had never sent their child or daughter to the walls of college began to buy into what college students were saying. It is like, show me the money, so to speak. If we are winning, we will stay there. If we are not, then let us pull out. And basically, I think to the existence today, that is how we participate in all of these wars that are throughout the United States. If we can go in and show that we have force and get people to listen to us, we go. If we do not, we will not.
SM (00:20:08):
...you respond to people who will say that... I have interviewed so many people on this project so far that there is diverse opinions. But that we all know who went to war. We all know that the college students were basically getting pardoned out of the war because their parents were rich and they had ways of getting out, whereas the inner city kids, people who were from poor backgrounds, both white and black and all colors could not do that. As one person told me, they were afraid to die. And that is the bottom line. And of course, they were involved in issues like the draft. And when that battle was won, then the whole movement ended. And then another person would say, "Well, really, when body bags kept coming home and middle America saw their sons and daughters dying, when middle America decided it should end, that is when the war really came to an end." So let us not give a lot of credit to these young college students who are basically naive. What are your thoughts on those kinds of diverse opinions?
MJ (00:21:08):
I think the system was set up, and until this day is still set up, for people to go into the armed forces who do not have money. That happens to be people of color or whites who are poor. I mean, the Army, Navy, that is the catch-all for all the people that are poor, a way to get away from your high school. And so it was not a surprise that most people who went to Vietnam were those people who could not afford to go to college. I think, however, that America seeing the body bags come home is sure one of the reasons why the war stopped, but they were body bags of poor people. I do not think, however, that wealthy people were trying to do anything but protect their sons and daughters, and poor people tried to do the same thing. No matter what, you would try. I mean, there were times when mothers were sending their kids to Canada, where parents were trying to get their kids in school. So everybody. I know my brother... You get that number that people got, and you are going to school whether you want to go or not. So everybody. And that to me is just, whether you have money or you do not, you try to protect your own because nobody wants to see their child going off to war. Whereas before, going off to the armed services as an officer was a great thing, and most wealthy people did that. They would go off into Quantico and go to these various little military bases and become an officer. But at that particular time, no matter what you were, and there were a lot of officers who were wealthy, that went off in body bags as well. So I do not think we were as sophisticated to say it was these against those. It just so happened that the bottom got trapped because the system was set up that way.
SM (00:22:59):
How was it when you were a student at Central State as an undergrad, now? Were the students of Central State protesting against the Vietnam War, or was Central State more into the civil rights issues? How was that?
MJ (00:23:13):
It was more the civil rights issues because although a lot of people say politically, a lot of people were not involved in the politics at that time because the church was the backbone of the politics, the African American church. I think what African Americans went through was the violent versus the nonviolent movement. There was the Martin Luther King followers, and then there was the Malcolm X followers. And I mean, had we been sophisticated as we are now, we would have probably known both men contributed a lot, and we did not have to make those choices. But one, the choice that you were in is that if you were a Martin Luther King follower, then you were church-going and you believed in God. But if you were a Malcolm X follower, you were an atheist or you did not believe in God. And really that is where African Americans got more caught up on. Had- Really, that is where African Americans got more caught up on. Had nothing to do with war. It was whether you believed in the violent or the non-violent movement, which I look back on today as a lot of regret. Because I probably would have learned a lot more about the philosophies of Malcolm X, and probably would have backed a lot of them. But because, from your family system, that was seen as something that was way outside, you just did not look at it as seriously. You tried to get into the Martin Luther King. And it was not until Martin Luther King was assassinated that I think African Americans totally went with the philosophy of Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party. And Muslims began to be the thing that everybody saw a little bit more positiveness of, because they really were helping in the community.
SM (00:24:53):
The other issue, of course, is again, you gets right into the issue of civil rights, and the Boomers involvement. Keep in mind, in the summer of (19)64, which was within the Freedom Summer, Boomers, that is the end group of the Boomer generation of (19)60, so 46. We are talking about the oldest person would have been 18.
MJ (00:25:13):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:25:14):
And of course, most of the people that went down there were already in college, were 19, 20, 21', 22, or in their mid-20s, late-20s.
(00:25:20):
The question I am trying to ask all Boomers, or people involved in this project is, how important were the boomers with respect to the Civil Rights Movement?
MJ (00:25:29):
They were the Civil Rights Movement. If you look at any of the, Eye on the Prize series, you see those young people. NAACP at that particular time was doing a lot of recruiting. And a lot of people were involved in the Mississippi Summer Project, March on Washington, and the Church was giving the backbone of that. And there was a lot of things going on, what group you really wanted to follow. But basically the NAACP, Adam Clayton Powell, all of those individuals, were pulling a lot of people in. And they were young people. They were people in your high schools. NAACP had branches within the high school. And they had these youth organizations where you would participate in the NAACP from a youth perspective. So, it was the young people.
SM (00:26:24):
Critics, who will say that, "Well, wait a minute. The Boomers just latched onto this. They were followers. They were not early leaders." Because in [inaudible] Freedom Summer had already happened. Now the march in Washington was (19)63. The oldest Boomer would have been 17 years old.
MJ (00:26:37):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:26:38):
You do not buy that argument, then-
MJ (00:26:40):
No.
SM (00:26:40):
...that they were not-
MJ (00:26:44):
No. I think they really were the backbone. And still to this day, I think the Boomers still, I think that is why the Million Man March was so successful, because it was the Boomers reclaiming that time, again, going back. I still see that need to organize, the need to speak out as a collective group that really came out of the March on Washington. That was such an empowering thing to watch, or to listen to, and how to recreate that. And I think that is why the Million Man March was successful. We will see if the March for the Women is just as successful. But if you notice, it is generally, who attended the Million Man March were basically people of color, coming together to speak as a force. I do think it was successful. And again, I have to state that most of these experiences that I am speaking from are from an African American perspective.
SM (00:27:37):
Mm-hmm.
MJ (00:27:37):
And it is very hard for me to look at it from a female perspective, or very hard for me to look at it from a White perspective, which may be different. My experience was not that. I was quite active, even in my own college. And at that particular time, I was not in college, I was in high school. But my father and mother were very active in the movement, and very active in Civil Rights people. We had the coffee klatches in our house. And people would come and talk. And many, many times there were White people that would come to the house. They were friends, and people like that. And voting was talked about in our house. So, I can only talk about it from that perspective. Now, if I was Mit Joyner, and I was a White woman, I do not know how I would be talking about it, or whether it would have been a topic of conversation. I lived in an integrated neighborhood. My father owned his own electrical contracting company and had a lot of problems because he was African American, and owned his own company. And the union did not really want him at first. And then, they wanted him because they wanted to contain him. So, those things were talked about a lot, which brought my transcendence out.
SM (00:28:43):
That is good. Thank you. It is just about the end of this side. Have you changed your opinion at all over the last 25 years, towards the Boomers. When you were young, looked at the Boomer generation, and now you are looking at them in 1997, have you been consistent in your opinions toward them? Or have you changed somewhat?
MJ (00:29:05):
Well, I have changed in terms of some of the workaholic part of a Boomer, the need for work, the need to have more money. I do not think that is as important. I think people that were poor can be very happy. Somewhere, we believe that poor people cannot be happy, but they can be. I believe that the healthcare is more important than what you can give your kids. If you can give your kids yourself versus all of these things that you leave them in a will, probably leaving them yourself is a better asset. So yeah, I have changed. I have changed into not having to worry about everybody, and worrying about myself.
SM (00:29:52):
Yeah. That is a very important commentary.
MJ (00:29:58):
[inaudible] Yeah. Well, just worrying about everybody, to worrying about myself. I think, at that time, the Civil Rights, we worried about our entire race, and moving them along, and making sure that everybody had. African Americans are still member people, that we worry about every member within our family system, and everybody within our extended family, and everybody within our community or on a street. And that can kill you. You have to learn how to worry about yourself, and to acknowledge other people, but people have the right to make choices. And some people are on this path of self-destructiveness, and there is not too much you can do to stop it.
SM (00:30:43):
I want you to respond to this that I mentioned earlier, about a quality that Boomers looked at themselves as, and that is they are the most unique generation in America history.
MJ (00:30:51):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:30:52):
Now, that is quite a statement.
MJ (00:30:52):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:30:54):
But a lot of them believe that. Do you think, in your own opinion, that the Boomer generation is the most unique generation in American history?
MJ (00:31:01):
No. No. If I look at it in terms of African Americans, I often look at the slaves that came over from another country, and started us all over again. The strength that it had to take to learn a different language, to learn how to eat different food, to be free, and then be enslaved for no other reason, just because of the color your skin, and to fight to get out of that. I think that, for African Americans, is probably the strongest generation that we have. Because they were people with nothing. And they fought for freedom. When you read the life of Frederick Douglass, and you look at, he was a slave, was not allowed to read, and became a candidate for Vice President of the United States. That just is remarkable to me. Remarkable.
SM (00:31:58):
Okay. I am going to go into another section here. One of the things that I am trying to be involved with this project is the concept of healing. I made many visits to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington. I tried to get a grasp and an ambience and a feel for what happened with the wall, which was supposed to be geared toward healing the Vietnam veterans, their families, their loved ones, and certainly trying to help the nation to heal because of those times. But every time I go down there, I see probably a lot of healing, but I see still a lot of tremendous division still, over those who were against the war, the way they were treated when they came home, middle America and how they treated us, and the perception of being baby killers, and all those kinds of things that the media had portrayed against the Vietnam veteran, which was really 3 million people who served in Vietnam. But do you feel, in 1997, irrespective of the wall, which was very important for our generation, for America, that we have healed, that we have healed from those tremendous divisions of that time, those who were for and against the war, the Civil Rights Movement in terms of being out in the streets. A lot of people will say that, part of the problems of the Civil Rights Movement was the riots that developed because of it. No one was ever satisfied with anything. The divisions in America continue today. Again, going right back there, could you concept on how important you feel dealing with the issue of healing is in America, today, on these issues that divided the nation back in the (19)60s and (19)70s?
MJ (00:33:40):
I believe that we heal every time there is a crisis. I think, when you look at America as a family, and we fight amongst ourselves, and there is division amongst ourselves, but I think when you come up against larger issues, I think, America has healed. And I think, in healing, it gives people the right to speak out about the differences. Some are stuck in a phase where they cannot move to the next phase. And what I mean by that is that some will always be upset and always be into a militant stance. But part of healing is accepting that person, and accepting their position, and respecting that. Healing is not wanting everybody to think like me and be like me and not to be upset with me. Healing is being able to accept the difference that is here in our society. And over the war, there are a lot of different opinions about that. There are those that went, those that stayed, those that tried to get out of it. And they all have strong reasons about why they made those choices, back then. And the healing part of that is just accepting that. And I think, the only time when that comes up is, again, for political reasons. And so therefore, I throw that out. But I think, on a whole, we know that there were draft dodgers. And I do not have any problems with them. And I also know I have friends that went over there and fought, and I have no problems with that. It was a time for people to make choices and to live up to whatever those consequences brought. And so, I think we have lived up to that. And every time I see a natural catastrophe, when we had the Gulf War, I saw a more cohesive group, that I have seen before.
SM (00:35:46):
I am going to give you a scenario, and experience the follow-up to this question.
MJ (00:35:47):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:35:47):
And that is, about five years ago, we took students to Washington, a small group of our Westchester students. And we had a chance to meet Senator Muskie. And I did not realize he had just gotten out of the hospital, and he was not feeling that great. But halfway through our two-hour conversation with him, we started talking about 1968 and the convention, and so forth. And as a Boomer, I had to reveal something that I did not really want to reveal, but I wanted to. And that is that a lot of Boomers, including myself, have a problem with authority. Wherever I have worked, it is not that you do not respect the people you work for, but there is a lack of trust in anybody in positions of power and responsibility. And I know many other Boomers that have gone on to be very successful in life, but still have that quality within them, no matter where they have gone, because of what was transpiring during that timeframe. And what I was trying to get at was, to have him respond to our students about his feelings about the division of American in 1968. And when I asked him the question and gave him the description of some of the lack of trust that I still had, he did not respond immediately. Tears came to his eyes. He reflected. And then, he said, "We have not healed as a nation since the Civil War."
MJ (00:37:05):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:37:07):
And I thought he was going to talk about Vietnam, and what he ended up doing here. That made me think. This is one of the main reasons why I am working on this project is, he said, "The Civil War generation went to their graves with bitterness toward the other side, despite all the Civil War ceremonies toward healing, between north and south. The hundreds of thousands who died, the families, the generations of families who were never to be raised, almost an entire generation of men wiped out. For what?" And the thing is, what he was saying was that, I thought he was referring, and of course, I never really was able to go back to ask because he had died. But the question is, was he referring to the fact that this generation, the Boomers, are facing the same trauma that the Civil War generation, that they are going to be going to their graves with still these inner, whether it be subconscious or conscious, bitterness toward people who were different than them, who had different ideas, no efforts being made to bring people together to try to understand each other more, because the times were tough times. Your thoughts on Senator Muskie's thoughts there, about the Civil War, and the generation of the Vietnam War, and should we, as a generation, we cannot heal everyone within a generation of 60 plus million, but should efforts be made to try to bring people together toward a better understanding of those times, so that what Senator Muskie was saying about the Civil War people going to their grave with this bitterness and hatred, and then transferring that to their sons and daughters, just your thoughts on that.
MJ (00:38:39):
Well, first of all, when I say America has healed, I meant it in terms of looking at it from a war perspective. I think America is really divided around race and culture. And I think and feel that, again, being African American, a lot of it is because people want you to forget your history. And whether or not retribution bills need to be paid or whatever, perhaps maybe that same public apology to African Americans for bringing them over here as slaves and keeping them enslaved for so long, is something that our nation needs to do, or at least to look at, to address. Because I do believe that most African Americans feel as though the system is really against them, or that there is some unknown thing holding them back. Had we been brought over here, even as indentured slaves, and allowed to work that off, as some of our ancestors were, we would have the old money. And we would be far along where we are today. We would be able to help our own kids in our own cities. And I think there is a lot of anger about that. And it is because America is so inconsistent. And it is still inconsistent in the way it punishes people. There are more African Americans every day placed in jails. And it is so blatant. And so, there is a lot of anger as it relates to race. Because no matter how wealthy I become, I will still be African American, and my kids may be driving a car, and the police officers pull them off because they think they do not have the right to drive the car because they are a person of color. I still have to teach my kids, in 1997, survival techniques of being an African American. And it should not be that way. And when you say that to White America, they feel as though it is untrue. People have dismissed that. "Oh, that is not true," or, "You do not really need to do that." And they think that, "Oh. We do not treat people like that." So, that anger is still there. And as it relates to the Civil War, the only thing that I feel about that is that White America often states in history classes that there has been no war fought in America. And so you ask, "What is the Civil War?" But I have problems with individuals who feel as though the south is all bad, but it is not. There are many, many good people. But I think the Confederate flag issue, and a lot of other issues, that to me, poke fun at people of color. We have not yet really talked about why a Confederate flag sends chills up and down my spot. And yet, I know often people feel as though that was their first flag, and they should fly it for other reasons. It should not always invoke the issues. But there is a little isms in it. And we have to come to understand that. And still, when you read in 1997 that there are places in the South, that just recently I read about, that has two principals, a White principal and a Black principal. There is still a lot of stuff divided on race. And it may make people uncomfortable. It may make people have to look at themselves. But until we start talking about the real race issues in America, I do not ever think we can move forward in that. And that is kind of a doom-er. But teaching race relations, that is the one beautiful thing I love about my course, is just to go over history again, and get people to see this history in a template, almost like when you look at the body, you put the blood on top. And [inaudible] you put the four cultures on top, and look at where they were, I understand why White Anglo-Saxon Protestants did what they did. Because they came from England and they wanted to create a system for themselves where they were not placed in a class system. They wanted to be able to have entrance into every level. And if you worked hard, you should move up. And the more money you have, you moved up. I understand that. But they did that at the expense of other people. And they exclude other people out. They have to also recognize that.
SM (00:42:50):
Could you talk about the generation gap? One of the things that was very common, one of the terms of that period, was that there was a generation gap between the Boomers and World War II generation.
MJ (00:43:02):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:43:03):
And of course, I am certain there is generation gaps in every generation, in between Boomers and Generation Xers, today. Can you reflect on your own metaphor, your life back then, the differences between the generations, the generation gap? And then comment today on boomers and their kids.
MJ (00:43:21):
Yeah. I think my parents' generation was more of the depreciated character. You just did things because that is the way it was. And they did not question as much. Not to say that was wrong. That was their own survival technique. And they were all coming over. And the (19)50s were the first generation after Brown versus Board of Education, that was allowing integration. that was a win-win for them. We questioned that. "Why cannot we go into every store? Why cannot we sit in every movie seat?" They were in the movies. I am not saying that that was wrong, but I think our generation just tended to question more, and to push the system, and to try to get the system into a little bit more social consistency, and throw out a lot of the injustices that you could see. Why is it that we all have to wash the floors? "I do not want to wash floors. Why cannot I go to college?" All of those questions. I think we just questioned on top of it, and the gap really was a generation of people that, even when they were ill, they kept it to themselves. And that was my father and mother's generation. No matter whatever happened, or how dismayed they were with anybody, they kept it to themselves. Whereas our generation was one who would tell everybody. And that was, to me, the gap. Where I see kids today is, they tell everyone, but it is probably, and again, this is a Boomer quote, this is probably my kids would kill, with a lack of respect, or at least what I see as a lack of respect. I see this generation having no problems telling anybody anything that is on their mind, even at the expense of that other person not being heard. Now, history will obviously play that out, and I will not be here to be able to read it. But I just think the scary part about this group that is graduating right now is, it is reverence sometimes for tradition. Now, that may be good. But...
SM (00:45:48):
Is that what a lot of the Boomers were doing, though?
MJ (00:45:52):
Yeah. Well, yeah, that is why I say-
SM (00:45:53):
They were against the IBM mentality, the lookalike.
MJ (00:45:57):
It may well be good. No. That is not what the Boomers were doing. Because, yeah, we had a no reverence, but we realized that you had to get within that system. This group really feels as though they can do anything independent of a system. Now, perhaps they can. But I also see this group as one that financially has a lot to lose. We raised our kids in a way that they have their own rooms. A lot of them drive their own cars. A lot of them have no idea how to survive without anything. And that is the scary thing. We had less. We came from poor families. We knew how to cook bean soup, and eat that all week. Some people knew how to, you do not have any money to pay the rent, so this is what you pay first. We had all of that. You learned something from being poor. This generation does not have that experience. They are maxing themselves out on credit cards, whereas we have credit cards, but we also know you can only go up to this debt. Whereas this group, I look at the college students and my own kids, that max out on credit cards before they had their first job. We never had a credit card.
SM (00:47:20):
[inaudible] have a credit card, then.
MJ (00:47:20):
Yeah. Now, you have Visa, Master Charge. These kids go to Cancun for spring breaks, and all these places. What is going to happen when the Dow Jones hits bottom? Are they going to be able to survive? These kids want, not Hondas, they want BMWs at an early age. That is where I see the irreverence of the institution, so to speak. They do not really realize, and I do not know if it is going to have negative ramifications, but they do not know how to do without less. And I think that is why a lot of people are delaying marriage. I think our kids are coming back- That is why a lot of people are delaying marriage. I think our kids are coming back home because it is more safe with mom and dad than it is to go into a relationship with someone else. A lot of these kids have big homes with their own bedrooms and every kind of contraption known demand. Why give that up and start over?
SM (00:48:25):
I want to get into this whole... Since you are really talking about today's young people, hopefully this project is also going to be read by a lot of young people because I want them to understand the parents and the people and the era where their parents came from. The passion. I have a passion for certain issues, and I will go to my grave for this passion. A lot of it was because of the era that I came from, my life experiences. I know you are the same way then. You have passions for certain things. I do not see the passion amongst the young people. I cannot generalize amongst all because there are some that have passion for things. But when they see something wrong, I get a sense that I am not sure how many people want to right it in today's young generation, and I am really concerned about that. I want your thoughts in terms of-of that era and why maybe the parents did not somehow instill this in their young kids that there are certain things that are still wrong with America and this is a generational, after generation, and we have got to get it right. We have got to do better. How people approach it might be different, but still we got a long way to go. And I am not sure if I see that. I am almost seeing, what is the term I want to use, not flashback. What is the term... I do not know if they are really listening and I do not know if they want to listen.
MJ (00:49:47):
I think this generation's passion is money. I think this generation wants to be in that 2 percent of the population that controls 90 percent of the wealth, and that is by any means necessary. I see this generation as having a passion, but they do not share it with one another because if I share it with somebody else they may get the wealth and I do not. I think everyone is driven in that area. Does the boomer generation try to talk about that? No, because the boomer generation was caught up in that too, with gaining assets. Maybe not to the degree that this generation has that, but the boomer generation, we were all wanting to have our own house, our own car. And we have that now, but now when you look at houses that are being built, they are being built with $425,000 price tags on them. Something is wrong there. When a house that may have cost 20 years ago, 100 to 200,000 is now moving up to four and $600,000. And these young people, and again, I cannot look at this as wrong because when I ride around these neighborhoods, I see young people moving into these homes. And maybe I just have not figured out how they got there, but I think that it is by any means necessary. And I honestly think that there are a lot more people in organized crime from the white-collar perspective than there ever has been in before. When you talk about mafia and things like that, I think there is more of that now than there was earlier years. I just think we have a lot of young people who go to med school who realize, ah, to be a doctor you got to work real hard to make a lot of money, but I do have access to a few dollars and I can get some illegal drugs and sell them to a group of people. And so I think you have a lack of values in that upper class of people than you have ever had before. And that is scary to me because people got into drugs before because they were depressed, cannot have this, cannot have that. But now people are getting into drugs to make a whole lot of money. I think drugs will perhaps ultimately kill this society.
SM (00:52:16):
What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? I know it might be a little bit early, but as you see it right now, is there a lasting legacy?
MJ (00:52:25):
Drugs. Drugs is probably one of them. I always watch that movie Panther. We really should have worked harder to keep drugs out of this society. It is killing everyone. In a positive way, however I think it is our drive and our ability to see our wrongs, to go back and say... Everybody was so into drugs at that particular time but people are not into them like that now to that degree, because they realized how much it really killed off a group of people. I think there is not a boomer around that does not know somebody that just has not died of an overdose. And yet we are also driven people and we can right some of those wrongs. I think we have a time to right those wrongs.
SM (00:53:17):
I think it is too early still to be talking about the boomers and their legacy?
MJ (00:53:20):
Yeah.
SM (00:53:20):
Because President Clinton obviously is 50. Joe Galloway said, again, I interviewed him back in November. He is a Vietnam veteran. And he said that... I asked the same thing. Oh, 50, we still got from 50 to 65, you still got plenty of time. He said, "No, when you hit 50 you know you are on your, not your downward trend, but you know that your time is not going to last a whole lot longer. And that is hard for boomers to realize that they are getting older.
MJ (00:53:52):
Oh, I think there is nothing truer been written. I think boomers have... When we go to 50 year old parties, people try to legitimize that 50 is not old. Yet, I remember looking at my parents when they turned 50, and my God, they are old. I think boomers fear dying. And maybe that is probably one of the things that has made our group so risqué because we never really realized the fact that we can die. And we are not a very religious group of people if you look at us collectively, because most people went against their philosophies of their church because it was part of the establishment.
SM (00:54:30):
Right.
MJ (00:54:30):
And I think there is a scare of that, of trying to go out and get that right. More boomers are returning back to church and trying to get their kids involved in church. And when you look at some of the dresses and clothes that we wear, I do think that we are afraid to come to that old thing that we are not going to be here forever. I think a lot of people try to feel that they are just in the middle phase of their life, but in reality, they are at the end of their life when you are watching your friends die. And you watch people come down with illnesses that you never thought could happen to your friends. And it brings a fear, I think, of the boomer. I think that is why spirituality is returning to be in fashion in the United States is because we were such a great group to say, we do not need that. We can survive on our own. And realizing that we have not paid attention to that. Our generation is almost running back to church in droves. And that is why the churches are becoming so economically solvent and they are building so many churches nowadays is because these people who had wealth, who worked real hard every day are now sick or getting sick and realize they had not paid that much attention to their spiritual side of themselves.
SM (00:55:52):
What I am going to do here is... This is a question dealing with the concept of activism. A lot of the people in the boomer generation were activists in their lives. And do you see any activism at all within today's young people or generation X-ers?
MJ (00:56:16):
Yeah. Again, you have to take the activism and say what it is. I see the volunteer rate here in America is higher than it has ever been. Activism on school boards, activism on women's healthcare issues there. There is so much activism in the United States, but everybody does it within whatever areas that they are experiencing needs to be corrected. If you put those things together collectively, you would probably be a powerful unit. But I do see a lot of activism. The reason why I think we do not see it in a collective way is because most women and men are working today. You do not have that much time to do it and get the fanfare for it, but you are being active within your company or your workplace and your school, and that is about it. Or active within your church. Before, when mothers could stay home and involve themselves into some particular project that is completely different. But with the workforce now, with almost most women working it has changed to be activism in a different way. I think right now women are trying to learn how, or at least a woman's issue, how to be like men, when far too often we want men to be like us. But women are dying now of heart attacks and that is because they are coming to work and they have a great big job to do with all the pressures and they go home and have a family to run with all the pressures and we just do not know how to relax, and we are not used to anybody taking care of us. And so women are trying to actively learn how to be different and go home and have a dirtier house or go home and have somebody take care of their house. Some women find it very difficult to hire a housekeeper, because this is my house and I should be doing that, yet they are not there.
SM (00:58:24):
I got a lot of questions. We will go over this one toward the very end. I want to get back to this issue of trust because I think it is really a major issue in America today. I think it is one of the central issues about not only this current generation, but the generation of boomers, is we know because the media has told us, and we live the fact that we do not trust elected leaders because of the experiences of Watergate, the Vietnam War, the McNamara's of the world and Johnson, and how we originally got into the war in Vietnam. Elected officials not being honest with the American public. We are even seeing some semblance of it today in Washington DC because the media is portraying all these money issues dealing with campaign funds, so forth. Everybody is trying to protect their own back. And these are elected leaders. And really nobody in a position of power responsibility, whether it be a minister, a CEO of a corporation, a university president, a politician, congressman, senator, anybody in a position of power and authority is looked about with a lot of trust. And this came about from the (19)60s and the (19)70s and I think it is a lasting quality that is inherent in many boomers. And it is not just something I feel myself, but then I also know that if you cannot trust how can you succeed in life? I would like your thoughts on the issue of trust today, because you even mentioned in your conversation that many African Americans, young people, and boomers do not trust because of the way they were treated since slavery.
MJ (01:00:11):
Well, again, it goes back to one of my little pet peeves or theories is that with social injustice and social inconsistency causes personal impotence. And by that what I mean is that malls are so inconsistent, we treat people differently and it makes us not be able to react one way or the other. Well, I firmly believe that Americans need to know about one's whole self is unrealistic. There are people in our government that have made mistakes. Now, if we could just apply that and treat everybody the same. I think we are into the business of being into people's personal lives, and we have not learned how to separate out one's personal self and one's professional self. The standards of the professional self is what is important to me and the values of one's professional self. I could care less what you do within your own household. And as we struggled with civil rights and equality of all people, we took that not only regarding the professional self but also the personal self. And I think America is very unrealistic of what we ask for our leaders. I think we do not have enough respect for our own president. And I think we forget to place things on a timeline. I do not believe in sexual harassment, but I realize it was something that happened years ago. I am not going to hold people accountable 20 years ago for some mistakes that they may have made in that area. We are at a different place and we are starting to let politics dictate our common sense. And it is not so much politics or what is right for the country it is just to win a race. And I find both parties as guilty of it, Democrats as well as Republicans, but this mudslinging that we have started to participate as a nation is beginning to destroy us. And I also think that Americans need to know everything about everyone or we are in trouble. And so when you look at things like Watergate, it happened, it is over and we need to move on. Now was Watergate, right? No, because I think it was somebody was trying to manipulate something, so, no, it was not right. In business it is not right. But we as a nation need to move on and we have to put our trust back. How do you gain trust again? Well, you gain trust by looking at a person's public record, not their private record. And I think a lot of decisions are being made over people's private records, not their public ones.
SM (01:03:19):
I am going to list some names of some individuals that were well known during the (19)60s. And if you could just give a few adjectives or just some thoughts on these individuals from your own personal perspective and secondly how you might feel the boomer generation as a whole, both Black and White might feel toward these people then and now. Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden.
MJ (01:03:41):
Revolutionaries. And I am not going to say revolutionaries that sold out. Just revolutionaries and they were made icons because of their celebrity status.
SM (01:03:56):
How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin?
MJ (01:03:59):
Risk takers. One who really wanted the establishment to listen to another perspective.
SM (01:04:10):
How about Dr. Benjamin Spock?
MJ (01:04:17):
White values. I think he wanted all of us to be raised the same way and came out with an epistle of how to raise a family. If you did not fit in that box you were abnormal.
SM (01:04:28):
How about the Berrigan Brothers, Catholic priests?
MJ (01:04:33):
The same thing. Catholicism, a box.
SM (01:04:40):
Some of the elected leaders of that period. And then we will start with some of the presidents, John Kennedy.
MJ (01:04:49):
Person who had vision. Had a lot of, as far as a man was seen as a man with a personal side to himself that came from his family system, but I think was there for the good of the nation.
SM (01:05:05):
Lyndon Johnson.
MJ (01:05:07):
Good of the nation. Texan, southern person. Good of the nation from the old boys’ network, but the good of the nation.
SM (01:05:16):
Richard Nixon.
MJ (01:05:18):
Good of the nation. A man who saw it from a very conservative vantage point. Probably would not be a person that I would ever thought about voting for or voting for now, but I think he had a vision for the nation that he thought was important.
SM (01:05:40):
Now, when you were young, did you dislike Richard Nixon and Lyndon Johnson because of the Vietnam War?
MJ (01:05:48):
No. My parents were democratic, so I usually did the old parochial thing. And you followed the Democrats and not the Republicans. No. I saw Lyndon Johnson as actually someone who probably would not have done it, but actually actualized what Kennedy wanted to do. He was the one that finished off a lot of things. Did he do it for politics? I do not know. But he is the one that made the civil rights movement where it is. It was not JFK. JFK talked about it, but due to his assassination was not able to complete a lot of his tasks. And Lyndon Johnson did do that.
SM (01:06:29):
I guess, Gerald Ford.
MJ (01:06:31):
I saw Gerald Ford as probably the common man coming to office, which I thought was positive.
SM (01:06:38):
George Wallace.
MJ (01:06:39):
Could not stand him. Only because of how history painted him as just being so anti-African American. And yes, he did change and he did contribute and people view him different. Just a southerner who I would never trust.
SM (01:06:59):
How about Ralph Nader?
MJ (01:07:02):
Good person who challenges even those that are in power. Probably can only do that from a White man perspective. If he was a person of color I do not know if Ralph Nader would have lived to be as old as he is today.
SM (01:07:16):
He is still doing it too.
MJ (01:07:17):
Yeah.
SM (01:07:18):
Still lives in an apartment in Washington. He has only two shirts, washes them, and I cannot figure out how the guy lives. Getting into some of the African American leaders at the time, of course, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
MJ (01:07:31):
Religious man who fell into becoming a leader of the Civil Rights movement. Really, when you read the history of Vernon Johns, the person that was at the church before Martin Luther King, he was really the one that was really outlandish. It was just that Martin Luther King was one that people thought that they could work with and he was more the middle of the road person and then moved out. And yes, did bring a lot of people into the movement, but Vernon Johns was actually the civil rights leader, but it was not palatable to people.
SM (01:08:06):
How about Malcolm X.
MJ (01:08:08):
I saw Malcolm X now as probably one of the greatest leaders of all time. It was unfortunate that that movement did not, or Jewish people had such a negative connotation of him. But I also look at his family system and what happened to him in terms of how he was raised and see him as... Really, if we had followed the philosophies of Dr. Martin Luther King, perhaps African Americans would not be as dependent on the government as it is today.
SM (01:08:41):
How about some of the Black Panthers of that period. Huey Long and...
MJ (01:08:46):
You mean Newton?
SM (01:08:47):
Not Huey Long, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver.
MJ (01:08:53):
These were, again, young people who fell into a movement. Actually, the Black Panthers had a nice thing going in terms of they were running schools for children. They were doing a lot of things for African Americans, and they were giving African Americans a pride within themselves and it was unfortunate that it all got swept away in a battle with police officers. I do not even think that they were Black Panthers, the way people look at them, they were just another extension of the Muslim movement to me, but they did not want to be Muslims who were going to fight for, by any means necessary, the rights of their people.
SM (01:09:38):
Timothy Leary.
MJ (01:09:41):
I really cannot speak of him.
SM (01:09:44):
He was a drug guru. A couple of names, Barry Goldwater.
MJ (01:09:48):
Well, that is the reason why I cannot speak of him because drugs, I just have such a thing.
SM (01:09:52):
Right.
MJ (01:09:55):
Barry Goldwater, establishment, keep the power even at the expense of others. And I get that mostly because of how he has settled or went after the lands that Native Americans have lived on. There is just a need to have the wealth.
SM (01:10:11):
Muhammad Ali.
MJ (01:10:13):
Oh, wow. A man that changed America, who made you laugh. When I think of Muhammad Ali, I think of his, not so much of his religious belief or his not going into war, but his ability to poke fun at himself and others and to gain acceptance to almost everything. Having his own beliefs and still to this day fighting Parkinson's disease. You see this man who is fighting it in such a way that no other person has ever done that. He takes every strength to walk, and yet he is walking. I see him as just a very strong and powerful leader.
SM (01:10:57):
I think he just turned 50, did not he?
MJ (01:10:58):
I do not know how old he is.
SM (01:11:00):
He might be 50. He has got be a little over 50 because... Well, anyways. And Spiro Agnew.
MJ (01:11:05):
Oh. Nolo contendere. That is what I think of him. When I explain nolo contendere, I do not know, but if I was, I did not know. And that is how I see him. I often equate the office of Vice President as a nolo contendere job because we really do not use that office the way I think it could be used.
SM (01:11:34):
Well, he certainly brought the campus up to a rage, sure had that ability. Gloria Steinem and some of the women of the Women's Movement.
MJ (01:11:44):
As a woman of color, I just have not really had that much time to be involved in the Women's Movement because you can only have one movement that you are involved in. But Gloria Steinem I think is one that has brought White women to caring about others, as well as looking at White women and how... as well as looking at white women and how oppressed they really were. So she has helped release those shackles.
SM (01:12:09):
It falls under the same category as Betty Friedan and Bella Abzug and even Shirley Chisholm. They were all of that era.
MJ (01:12:17):
And Barbara Jordan, all of them. Yeah.
SM (01:12:18):
Right.
MJ (01:12:19):
Yeah. They were all women who went up against the odds. And so for that, she has got an acolyte in my land.
SM (01:12:28):
Richard Daley, mayor of Chicago?
MJ (01:12:31):
I found he was very racist, I mean, beyond the political machine. I think covert racism is just as, and perhaps more mind-boggling than overt racism. And I feel as though that is how that political machine worked, and it caused a lot of people who... That was the beginning of Cabrini-Greens and all of these blasted welfare apartments that they made, which they called projects, and they put people in there and could care less about them. And that probably is one of the downfalls of our nation because if we had integrated and infused all of these different people, we probably would not have the biggest welfare problem we have today. But we just put all of them in there and let them live on top of each other, kill each other, do whatever as long as it did not bother anybody else. And so Chicago, it has been one of the main places for that.
SM (01:13:24):
How about Robert McNamara?
MJ (01:13:27):
Do not have much to say.
SM (01:13:31):
The musicians of the era, Jimi Hendrix, Janice Joplin, the Beatles, Elvis Presley, all those musicians, it is the Motown sound, all the music of that period.
MJ (01:13:43):
All right. Collectively, when I hear of Jimi Hendrix, I think of drugs. Or I think of Janice Joplin, I think of drugs. So I see it as a lot of drugs involved there. When I think of Motown, however, I think of it completely different. I think of it as exploitation. When I think of Billie Holiday, I think of her as involved in drugs only because she could sing at any place in Harlem and yet could not walk in the front door if she was not singing. So I see a lot of their downfall, the taking drugs, for just trying to deal with the entertainment field. I see it as exploitation because most of those Motown people who have survived, really acquired their wealth in the late (19)70s and (19)80s, really (19)80s and (19)90s. But when you look at way back then, all of them were being used by someone. And they were all involved in a meat-shop-type thing where the people who owned the laborers made the money. I think the music was great. I guess, of the drug person that I loved the music of the most, and think it fits the time, was Marvin Gaye. I think he had such a great political instinct on so many things. When you listen to his records, they are just... You can play him today, and he-
SM (01:15:11):
Yeah. What is Going On is a classic.
MJ (01:15:13):
And Mother... I mean, all of them. He really talked about this... He took the moment of the time, and I really think he was a genius, and really talked about them and the pain that lots of groups of people were coming from.
SM (01:15:27):
And he was criticized for doing that too.
MJ (01:15:28):
Yeah. Oh yeah.
SM (01:15:29):
"You are not going to sell any records doing that."
MJ (01:15:31):
Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, his What is... And I remember going to sleep on Marvin Gaye records, just listening to What is Going On. He dealt with the sexual revolution through Sexual Healing, and that is why we were all into sex. I mean, it is just all of those things. And he was probably the one... Elvis Presley, I could not stand, and a lot because I do not know if it was a rumor or whatever, but I remembered he always said, "Only colored folks could do for him was buy his records." And so there was a lot of division.
SM (01:15:59):
He said that?
MJ (01:15:59):
Yeah.
SM (01:15:59):
Oh wow.
MJ (01:16:02):
I do not know if it was true. I do not know if it was true. It was a rumor that spread throughout the African American community.
SM (01:16:07):
Okay, wow.
MJ (01:16:07):
I also know that he ripped off a lot of African Americans in terms of their music. I mean, and that had nothing to do with him. It had a lot to do with that white America would not listen to Black music. And so Elvis Presley would go and listen to that music and then make money off of it.
SM (01:16:23):
The last one I have here is Dwight Eisenhower because he was when a lot of boomers were a little younger.
MJ (01:16:29):
Dwight Eisenhower? Only because I know the Eisenhowers... I think he came out of the war, and we made him a hero. I do not know if he was primed to be president. And so I think he fell into this great political power based on the fact that he was a good general. And I do not think he made such a great president.
SM (01:16:53):
Woodward and Bernstein, the two reporters that...
MJ (01:16:56):
Courageous. I do not think they realized... Because I lived in Washington around that time. I do not think they realized what they stumbled on to. I always just look at them almost like the OJ Simpson trial. If that had happened now, would they maximize their potential? I would hope not. I hope they would still do the same thing, just write the story as it was told and not worry about who they could sell it to.
SM (01:17:24):
How did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life?
MJ (01:17:27):
The youth of (19)60s and early...
SM (01:17:30):
In attitudes that you have?
MJ (01:17:31):
First off, I grew up in Westchester, Kennett Square, Westchester. So I went to school in Catholic school and public school. And there were not that many African-Americans here. So I grew up in a white environment, probably knew a lot more about Italian and Irish culture than I did my own. My parents gave us, as a gift in our junior year, a trip. And because I was the youngest one, I decided to do the furthest thing. My sister went to Canada. My brother went to New Mexico, and I chose to travel Europe for the summer when I was 16. I turned 16 in Venice, which was really great because I got to come back on the ship that brought over all the student exchanges. And they picked me to be on a lot of panels because it was the ugly American at that time. And most people, most Europeans did not like Americans, which was new to me because here in America, most African Americans wanted to be a white American. Well, white Americans were not accepted, and I was placed in power on that ship because they wanted to know, Europeans wanted to know about my experience of being an African American here in this country, which now thinking back, might have probably been some of my first stance on race relations. And so I remember getting on that ship and being asked to participate in this panel about being an African American, being colored in the United States, and what did it have? And the reason why it had a lot of problems for me was because before I left to go on that trip, I wanted to go academic course. And at Bishop Shanahan High School, the ninth grade was a generic grade, and then you could go academic, commercial, or scientific. One was for the math and science, which was scientific. Academic was for those and wanted to go to college but not in the math and science area. And commercial was those who wanted to be a secretary. And the nun would not approve my schedule for academic. Now, I had been involved in cheerleading, and I just really had power at Bishop Shanahan High School. But when it came time to pick my courses, the nun stated, because my father owned a course, I mean a company, that the best course for me to track would be commercial because it is best for me to get a job and go work for my father in a secretarial slot. Now the nun did not know my father fired me when I was 12 years old because I did not come to work appropriately. So I had thought in my head I never would be able to work for him and never did. I was also a candy striper and had enjoyed seeing the social worker at Chester County Hospital and kind of said, "Oh, that is what I might want to do when I get big or grow old." So when I was denied the academic course, I was going to accept that because, after all, sister Mary Corona said that is what I was supposed to do. And I was a good Catholic. But my mother stated, "No," that I had to... If I wanted to go to college, then that is where I was going, and if she had to pull me out of that school, she would. Now you have to understand, that was devastating to me because I was a cheerleader, that ninth grade, that is the year you make whoever you are going to be. And I had made it to the cheerleading squad. And so I was now quote, "a popular person," unquote, and I did not want to have to start over into... And I had been involved in Catholic school since the fourth grade, fourth grade to the ninth grade. So most of my friends were Catholic. And my mother talked about sending me off to public school. Well, that summer, while I was away, my family moved from Kennett Square to Westchester, and my mother enrolled me into Henderson High School in the academic course. And I have to thank her to this day because I would have been a horrible secretary because I hated that. And I went on and did well, went on to college. But it was during that summer of my 16th birthday that my whole life kind of changed. And in the area of race relations was why it changed because the nun who was very racist, but I did not want to believe that because nuns cannot be racist, denied me access to education of which I wanted.
SM (01:21:39):
Oh wow.
MJ (01:21:41):
And to find out years later, the same thing happened to my husband where he was told the best he could do would be to work with his hands. And he just decided to go on to public school. And he was also raised a Catholic and challenged that system. I do not know if he was told that in public school or whether he was told that in Catholic school but went on to school. And I think that that is where the biggest mistrust comes for African Americans, is in that school system because we do not... And we still do not have enough people of color or enough white people who know about the colleges, of HBCs and know about how to nurture our kids and how to push our kids on. And so we think that, "I do not trust my child's guidance counselor because I know what was done to me. And far too often do I know what was done to other African Americans."
SM (01:22:39):
That is a very revealing story. And that will be in the book.
MJ (01:22:45):
Okay.
SM (01:22:45):
Because of what we have tried to find here, and this leads right into this very important question. If you were to pick the experience that had the greatest impact on your life, is that the one from that period?
MJ (01:22:53):
It was that, yeah. It was that, and it was being raised part of the Black middle class. Being part of the Black middle class, whites did not accept you, as well as African Americans did not accept you. I had a nice life. I did not really want for anything. I rode horses, had a nice life, and many times people would refer to us as silver spoon or all those kind of things. It was not until I came to terms with that my father did what he needed to do for his family, and he wanted to uplift his family. And so I started reading about the Black middle class and really started enjoying it.
SM (01:23:36):
If there was a particular event from that period in American history that had the greatest impact on you, what was that?
MJ (01:23:42):
Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King.
SM (01:23:44):
Okay. You remember where you were when that happened?
MJ (01:23:47):
Mm-hmm. When Dr. Martin Luther King was killed, I was in the first year of college, and actually there was two assassinations. The first one was assassination of JFK. And I was in Catholic school at that time, and we were in mass, and we were dismissed. And then when we got home, we found out that the president had been shot. And that was really, really scary. And then it was the assassination of Medgar Evers.
SM (01:24:16):
Oh yeah.
MJ (01:24:16):
And then it was the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. And at that point, I realized that doing things through the establishment could not happen. And that is where my militant stance took itself because Martin Luther King had talked so much about nonviolence. And then you looked at what did that really bring you? And that is when you really... I think my own conversion experience from that time was moving to, I cannot stand whitey-type philosophy. And I was at Central State when that was occurring, which was a historically Black institution, and also National Guards people, the year before I was there, had marched on our campus and hosed everybody down. So there was this... And that is when I really kind of got involved, had the Afro, wore the dashiki.
SM (01:25:06):
Yeah, those were unbelievable times.
MJ (01:25:09):
But when you see three assassinations, and then right after that it was-
SM (01:25:12):
Bobby Kennedy-
MJ (01:25:12):
Bobby Kennedy.
SM (01:25:13):
...was killed two months later.
MJ (01:25:14):
And so you realized how crazy America could be. Plus, you had television that would show you what was happening in the South, and you were watching people being hosed down. And so it was almost like today when people sit and watch, that is why I hate them, those crazy talk shows. You could turn on television and see things unfolding. I remember sitting home watching Jack Ruby shoot... Yeah.
SM (01:25:41):
So you are another one that saw it live, like I did.
MJ (01:25:42):
Yeah, yeah. I saw it live watching television because I was mesmerized by that whole thing. You just sit, and I mean, you watched television, and I watched the whole JFK funeral unfold. And when I happened to see that, you are just like, "Oh my God." It is almost as you watch that, you get immune to that. You are starting to look at everywhere you can go, you can be wiped out if you do not believe in certain things.
SM (01:26:04):
Yeah, [inaudible]. You were describing the event that had the greatest impact, those series of events. But if you were to try to, and it is tough to do this, but if you were to speak for the entire boomer generation from all ethnic backgrounds, what do you think the most important event has been in their lives, had the greatest impact on them?
MJ (01:26:33):
I think the assassinations and the war, and I say assassinations collectively. I just never thought that we would... I do not think people in America believe that they could see a president assassinated. You see Lincoln assassinated, and you realize, "Ah. Yeah, you can see all that," but never before. And I think the boomer generation watched those assassinations as it associated to politics, and I think that is where our mistrust of the system... Because we still do not really know what happened. And cover-ups started coming into play.
SM (01:27:10):
I am going to end with a question here. Actually, I am going to read this because I want to try to explain this. "The youth of the (19)60s and the (19)70s believed that they could have impact on society as a whole because of the influence on government policy or influence over the draft, issues like voting rights, civil rights legislation, abortion laws, workers' rights, civil rights, multiple movements representing both genders and all ethnic groups because there was a sense of empowerment. This whole issue, we have talked about it earlier, a feeling of empowerment. We can make a difference, not only individually but as a group." How do you feel the boomers feel today about this concept of empowerment? We know they have the power of the dollar because 60 million, they have always been appealed to in the markets for dollars through advertising. But what concerns me is, that you have raised it already earlier, about that they have gone on and raised families, getting a lot of dollars like any other previous generation. But it was always the hope that this generation was different, that this generation saw wrongs and wanted to write them. It is not afraid to speak up, even if it meant the possibility of losing one's job. When you see something wrong, you hope that what happened during that period in terms of what was happening in American civil rights, the war in Vietnam and government policy, how women were being treated, how other ethnic groups came to empowerment, the Native American movement, the Hispanic movement, and the gay and lesbian movement, they all came because they all realized... They used the civil rights as a model, that if nobody is going to change thing for us, unless we change it ourselves. Nothing comes easy. We have to fight to make something happen for the better. My question I am asking you to close out is, are the boomers still feeling that way? And if they are not, is not this a sign that this generation is no different than any generation that preceded them? And as some people used to say, "Well, as you get older, you will see that you are no different." I live my life as I lived it back then. And sometimes I feel isolated when I fight for certain things, not that I am better than anyone, not out of arrogance but that somehow that era caught me for my entire life. And I know there are people like yourself. I think you have fallen in that category, but I am worried that there are few and far between when there is so many issues.
MJ (01:29:42):
Well, yeah. First off, I do not think there are few and far between. I think that a lot of people are doing a lot of things. It is just that our media does not tell us about it all the time. I mean, media really controls your opinion about our nation. And for whatever reason, the media really does not like... When you take a person like Ennis Cosby, who was assassinated, but here is a young... His life was cut away from him early. But he was a young man that could have done anything he wanted to do. But through the values of his mother, Camille, and his father, Bill, who were all part of the boomer generation, was working with kids who had learning disabilities. He was taking all of his wealth that he did not gain, and he had no problems about that. I mean, I think it is okay. It is okay to be wealthy, and I do not want people to think that it is not okay to give your wealth. But he was using his wealth in a way that was going to really take care of others. You take this young man whose life was just cut away, whose father owned the major company up in New York. And when you go around this world, you hear a lot of stories like that. You hear about the post office man who goes to church every Sunday and reads to kids. You hear about people who rock crack-addicted kids. I think there is such a contribution of people giving back, but our media will never ever tell you those stories. And so I think we have been robbed in America, and we have blinders on, and we do not really realize how many people give back and to what degree people give back because everybody is not the person who needs to have their story told in the papers. And so I am a believer that we have contributed, and I am a believer that we have lived up to what we thought we were going to do. I believe all of us have helped bring somebody along that would not have been brought along had we not had this spirit of giving.
SM (01:31:41):
So you are not going to buy into that, my very first question from the beginning of the interview, when people will give a broad sweep, a pen stroke of an entire generation-
MJ (01:31:49):
No.
SM (01:31:50):
...that the reason why we have problems in America, the divorce rate, the break-up of the American family, the drug situation is because of those boomers.
MJ (01:31:58):
No-no. I think the reason we have a high divorce rate is people are living longer. And divorced, we were only married before for about 20 years. You now see people celebrating 50, 60, 70 years of marriage. And that is kind of hard. I think the divorce rate is high because women are working. They are independent, and they no longer are dependent on men. But I have seen too many people in, like I say, the postal office-type jobs that help people, and they will never be written about. They will never receive an outcome like that or receive anything, but they help people.
SM (01:32:30):
I am going to end by saying thank you very much for taking time. An hour and a half out of your schedule is a lot, I know.
MJ (01:32:35):
Oh, thank you.
SM (01:32:38):
And is there any final thoughts that you would like to state to conclude?
MJ (01:32:43):
I would just like to say that these thoughts are my own. They come from an African American perspective of a female, and there is some predictions about the next generation. And I do not believe I am writing that generation off either. I think that they will look out at history 50 years from now, and we will see the strength within themselves because I think everybody contributes in our society, or it would be doomed to fail.
SM (01:33:09):
Very good. Thank you very much.
MJ (01:33:09):
Yes, thank you.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Mit Joyner
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Joyner, Mildred (Mit) ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Social service; College teachers; Community activists; West Chester University of Pennsylvania; Joyner, Mildred (Mit)--Interviews
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Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor of Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master of Social Work from Howard University.
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McKiernan Interviews
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93:12
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/76af0b02baee1160100cd7f3946f2877.mp3
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
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Mary Thom
Date of Interview
2011-06-27
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
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120:26
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English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of Ms. magazine. She wrote her first book about the history of MS. MAGAZINE entitled INSIDE MS.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>. She wrote her first book about the history of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>, entitled <em>Inside Ms.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement</em>. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Anti-War movement; Civil Rights Movement; Social Action Committee; Feminist issues; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Counterculture; Women's Rights Movement; Take Back The Night."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Anti-War movement; Civil Rights Movement; Social Action Committee; Feminist issues; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Counterculture; Women's Rights Movement; Take Back The Night.</span>
Subject LCSH
Feminists; Editors; Ms. magazine/Sarah Lazin books; Thom, Mary--Interviews
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Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Mary Thom
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 27 June 2011
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
Testing one, two. All right, we are going to get going here.
MT (00:00:10):
Okay.
SM (00:00:13):
And I will be checking these. It is probably be better to have these here.
MT (00:00:18):
[inaudible] whatever you want.
SM (00:00:22):
Yeah, because your voice just [inaudible] just speak up and I will continue to borrow your pen here. Yeah, first question I like to ask everyone is what were your personal growing up years like huh? Who were the people that inspired you? Who were your role models? How did you become who you are of the people? Because especially on women's issues and so forth, and a writer. Where did Mary Tom come from?
MT (00:00:50):
Literally, I was born in Cleveland and grew up in Akron, Ohio. And my family was basically Ohio conservative, which at that point in the (19)50s was not social conservatism as much as tapped economic, that kind of thing. So it is interesting that both my sister and I turned out to have completely different politics than our parents, but I cannot think politics were a big thing in the family. It was around, and certain social welfare was an issue. And my father, especially, I think, was a very kind of open guy and had friends from all kinds of different parts of society. And that was influential. After grade school, we went to a private day school, and I had teachers there that were very influential, and especially a history teacher, Mrs. Shepherd, who was extraordinary. I think she influenced me to become... I studied history as an undergraduate and also a Columbia and graduate school, so that was her influence. But I did not really realize that I talked differently from many of my classmates until the years that I was studying with her, which was sort of my junior and senior year of high school. And one of the things she did is she brought the film on HUAC, what was it?
SM (00:02:57):
Oh, house on air.
MT (00:02:57):
Yeah, but what was the film called? I cannot remember. It was a very famous film where they sort of exposed what HUAC was doing in terms of... And half the class sort of was horrified because it made them think that we were being invaded by Russians, and the other half the class was horrified at HUAC. So it was this sort of balancing thing. So I do not even think I had realized until then that there was this sort of bedrock conservative and a communist.
SM (00:03:37):
Was that (19)50s or late (19)50s?
MT (00:03:39):
Yeah, I mean, I graduated high school in (19)62, so that must have been (19)60, (19)61, (19)62. And then another in incident that happened is, because this is very sort of Lily White Ohio community is a black girl, came to one of the picnics where we recruit new students. And some of my people who I thought of as my best friends were horrified that there would be a black girl, which I just could not understand. I mean, I had never been brought up that way at all. So it was sort of an interesting... And then the other thing that was happening is that we were following the anti-war movement, there were marches against, I guess it was not war so much as anti-nuke because it was Skunk in (19)90 and that sort of thing. And there were marches in Cleveland, and I knew people that had been doing that. And also one of the biggest influences, I think, was that there was a Shakespeare festival every summer in and around Cleveland and Akron. And the guy who was head of the McMillan Theater in Princeton brought this festival. And other friends of mine hung out there. And we did tasks, we sold tickets. Some worked on the lighting for maybe three years in succession. And at the same time, I went to summer school with some of the kids that were... At that time, going to summer school the first time that I knowingly had friends who were brought up in Democratic family and families that were part of the Democratic Party. So that was sort of very opening my mind to things. And then I was also involved in folk music, so I read, Sing Out. Oh, yeah. And my mother was horrified because she said, "we are going to get on a list" which I thought was stupid, but probably was not. So there are all these sort of conflicting things.
SM (00:06:22):
You went off to Columbia?
MT (00:06:23):
No, I went to Bryn Mawr undergraduate.
SM (00:06:25):
You went Bryn Mawr, and then what did you do in graduate school?
MT (00:06:29):
I went to Columbia in European history.
SM (00:06:31):
What was it like? What were the college environments? I mean, both schools at the time that you were there?
MT (00:06:38):
Okay, Bryn Mawr was sort of-
SM (00:06:41):
You can keep going. I shall keep checking.
MT (00:06:48):
No, that is okay. Bryn Mawr was on the verge of becoming radicalized when I was there. I graduated in (19)66. Kathy Dedan was a friend of mine, I mean she was a year ahead of me. She was more of a mentor, I suppose, than a friend. And she had brought a very influential event to campus, which I think it is called the Second American Revolution, where a bunch of kids from the south, from Tulu and different schools and people in the Civil Rights movement came to campus. And I cannot remember if it was my freshman or sophomore year.
SM (00:07:27):
That is pretty big, because-
MT (00:07:31):
It was enormous, exactly. So I got involved in the Civil Rights Movement. And in fact, with my friend Jenny Kerr, who's who was from Indiana, we started something called the Social Action Committee at Bryn Mawr. And I think it was sort of more or less under the auspices of Kathy and some of her friends who I believe sort of loved the idea of these Middle Western kids as opposed to people from radical families organizing. So that was an organ for... We raised money for Snick to send down. We did something called Fast for Freedom, where we convinced the administration to take the money from a fast and let us get it to give it to activist, which did not raise much money, but it was a vehicle to... And we worked on students’ rights issues, which were really feminist issues because of Bryn Mawr. I mean things like that we were not allowed to stay out late and things like that. I mean, we altered some of those rules, those paternalistic rules. And then the other thing we did, which I found a little problematic, but was probably harmless, is that we organized the Maids and Porters, Bryn Mawr was like a plantation at that point, although very-
SM (00:09:17):
(19)62, (196)3, (196)4 and (196)6?
MT (00:09:28):
Young, mostly black people took care of being maid some porters. And they lived in these small rooms, and basically, their grievances were that they could not have any kind of normal life because they could not have men in your rooms and things like that. So that was interesting. I mean, what we did is talk to a lot of my new young women in this situation and got them excited about making demands. The reason it was problematic for me is that this was sort of the junior and senior year. And then I realized I was going off, and then here, I had sort of stirred up this-
SM (00:10:19):
Can of worms and...
MT (00:10:22):
So what we did, I mean, I think we acted responsibly. We got involved some labor people from Philadelphia who came in and were counseling to these people. So I think it was fine, but I realized at that point that I was mobilizing and doing-
SM (00:10:46):
See those kinds of things were not really happening in the (19)50s on just about any campus. I think there was sensitivity on campuses toward what was going on in the South New York, students were cognizant, but even the African American students in the South, the lunch counters was like (19)60, (19)61 in that particular time frame. So you are in the kind of what I call the forerunners of this feeling, correct me if I am wrong, that you view that your voice really did count and that you wanted to be change agents for the betterment of society.
MT (00:11:21):
Absolutely and-
SM (00:11:22):
I mean of a development of self-esteem, that you were somebody, even when you were a college student, that your voice needed to be heard.
MT (00:11:31):
Oh, yeah. I mean, think that is absolutely true, and I think Bryn Mawr was a place to encourage that, even when we were being nettling up to-
SM (00:11:42):
Off to Columbia next, and of course, we all know what happened 60 years-
MT (00:11:45):
First, let me just say, the other thing I did is I went down to... Bryn Mawr would not allow exchanges because they were so snotty, they did not want the students to go off any place else. But we did arrange three week exchange over spring break. So I went down to Tulu, and this was in (19)64 maybe. I am trying to remember, maybe 65. And that was very influential as a group of us from Haverford and from Bryn Mawr. We were also involved in antiwar movement and things like that. And I had also been involved in Philadelphia. And for the summer when the Shona and Channey and Goodman were killed, I was in New York working with Core. So I had become quite involved at that point. But the trip to Tougaloo was particularly amazing because we did not do much. I mean, we just sort of hung out with the kids. But you drove around Jackson in an integrated car, especially with license plates from a northern state. And there was a tank in the town, basically. I mean, it was a police vehicle that was armored. And nothing happened, but you had had the sense of what had happened and could happen.
SM (00:13:19):
How many were in your group that went south and you were there for six weeks?
MT (00:13:22):
Weeks? No, no, not six weeks, less than that. Okay, two or three. Yes, I said they were not willing to let us off for that long. I guess there might have been 12.
SM (00:13:36):
How did you get there? Just by car?
MT (00:13:39):
Yeah, it was just organized it fairly informally. And we had made contact with these two little kids from the thing that Kathy had organized years before. And it kept up some of the contacts.
SM (00:13:54):
Did the kids and the people there tell you what it was like to live in this?
MT (00:14:00):
Oh, yeah, they did. I know from my friend John Edgar, who was at Miz later with me, she was at Millsaps at the time, which is a white college in Jackson. And she did things like organized to get the Tulu kids into the Millsaps Library. And the tool they used was that Millsaps had the federal deposit branch of whatever, the library, the books. And so that they argued that they had to let the Tougaloo kids come into the library and use it. So there was a lot of that kind of stuff going on and Tougaloo was at the heart of it, various radical... I cannot remember their names now, but professors, yeah, were there. So it was a great place to learn about what-
SM (00:14:58):
Did you fear for your life when you were there?
MT (00:15:00):
No, but I just realized, I mean, you had a heightened sensibility. I mean, you sort of feared for your life. I mean, you sort of knew what had happened to people. I mean, we were in the middle of Jackson. We were not out on some country roads, but certainly the kids told us, if you were driving around, be careful. No, it is amazing.
SM (00:15:28):
Especially when the Shona, Cheney and Goodman was killed. And I talked to a couple people that were actually being trained and they were heading down after and there was a fear, but they still wanted to do it because-
MT (00:15:44):
But mostly what I... I mean, absolutely. But mostly what I remember about that was hanging out with the two little kids and drinking deer and discussing music. I mean...
SM (00:15:56):
But you were expanding your horizons. You have seen the world as it really was not the way mom and dad may have.
MT (00:16:05):
That is right, much to my parents feared dismay, although they always were supportive of both my sister and me.
SM (00:16:17):
The second question I have is, in your own words, what was it like being a woman in the (19)50s?
MT (00:16:29):
In the (19)50s?
SM (00:16:30):
Well, I would, saying a high school, a female going to high school from (19)58 to (19)62, to be in college from (19)62 to (19)66. Things started changing in the late (19)60s. But what was it like being women in the (19)50s and (19)60s? Any gains? I have a lot of notes here. I have read-
MT (00:16:54):
No-no, that is right.
SM (00:16:57):
[inaudible] The era of was this was a stay at home. This was a number when most women were staying.
MT (00:17:02):
Certainly my mother was of that, and she stayed at home. She was very happy to be staying at home. She did a lot of volunteer work because that would advance her family. I mean well, both because she was a good volunteer but I mean, that was part of what her job was, was to represent us to the community. So that was sort of a given but on the other hand, there I was at an all-girl school. Well, we had a couple boys in our class through middle school, but through high school. And that made a big difference in terms of what we thought of ourselves intellectually. I mean, we never had that kind of intimidation that other kids had.
SM (00:17:51):
Did you go to an all-girls high school too? Okay.
MT (00:17:54):
Yeah.
SM (00:17:54):
So you come from a little different [inaudible]
MT (00:17:56):
Yeah. I went to all girls high school. We certainly had contact with the local boys schools and went to proms. And that was always sort of not something that I felt comfortable. I mean, I felt comfortable enough, but it was not something that... But then it did not matter that much because my life was in this other kind of situation. So I had boyfriends, but they were not like be all of my existence. And then I went Bryn Mawr. And that was kind of a great atmosphere because we had our own institution. But I took classes at Haverford, and certainly the organizing had to do with kids from Haverford. One of my boyfriends was actually... I do not know if I want you to use this, but I will tell you anyway, was Ben Davis and his father was part of the Center for Constitutional Rights, one of the founders.
SM (00:19:12):
Oh?
MT (00:19:17):
And that is how I got to know Kathy Bine. They were Steve Smith, which was her boyfriend, and Ben were roommates.
SM (00:19:25):
Now, Kathy is, correct me, I am wrong. Did she die in the-
MT (00:19:30):
No, she went to prison.
SM (00:19:32):
Yeah, she was in prison.
MT (00:19:32):
And she is out. Now, she is out. She has been out for about 10 years, I think. But she had a kid that then the Jennifer... It was a [inaudible] what is her name? Brought up her son.
SM (00:19:50):
I think she used to have her boyfriend was the one that married Bernadine Dorn.
MT (00:19:55):
Not her boyfriend, but they were friends. But Bernadine Dorn and-and that guy whose name escaped me was brought up her kid.
SM (00:20:03):
Oh, wow.
MT (00:20:04):
Kathy's child.
SM (00:20:05):
Huh.
MT (00:20:07):
But I did not have anything much to do with her except I heard about them when I was at Columbia. I had friends who were in living in.... They had just been living in Chicago and had been in Chicago during the Democratic doing. And Kathy and some other people had been sort of camping out of their...
SM (00:20:34):
I think there is a book out on them, on that family that-
MT (00:20:38):
Yeah, Susan Brody wrote a book on them, and Susan was at Bryn Mawr a few years before me. But anyway, I mean that Kathy had obviously gone through these sort of transforming things, partly in Cleveland and then partly later. And I knew kind of what it was, because I left Columbia in (19)68 during the uprising. And at that point, I had a boyfriend and I came home every evening. So I was not there doing some of the demonstrations, but I was there enough to be voting. We were also involved in getting more rights for graduate students and things like that. And I saw what would happen to doing the demonstrations but what people did once you threw stone through the window of the Dean's office. I mean, that was sort of the middle class kids throwing that off and becoming agents and radicalized. And it was not something that I felt that... Maybe I made those decisions afterwards. That is what was happening.
SM (00:22:03):
Your background is one again, where high school and college, women had a voice. Women were important, in a lot of society. A lot of women did not have that feeling. And one of the criticisms of the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement has been that women were placed in secondary roles, not all but most. And they got tired of the way men treated them. And that was one of the thrusts of the women's movement. They split away from the anti-war civil rights. And even people I have talked to admit that those two movements were just, were that way.
MT (00:22:49):
Oh, they were. Absolutely.
SM (00:22:50):
Did you think that is one of the main reasons why the second wave of the women's-
MT (00:22:54):
Oh, yeah. I think absolutely. I mean, I experienced in slightly different way, because I was not in groups that resisted my voice as a woman since in the New review that I was organizing, that did not happen. But I did when feminism began, when it dawned on me, although as I said, I have been doing proto feminist organizing in terms of students’ rights and maids’ rights and things like that, I realized that this was a way that I could experience and influence change through my own situation as opposed to working with other oppression. So that is what was important to me. It sort of transferred all those things that I felt in terms of the Civil rights movement and the anti-war movement in a way, because in a way, I was not going to get directed.
SM (00:24:04):
I know there has been some books recently written saying that women were very powerful in the Civil rights movement. And that even list of the names, there is books and written about women of the South that were important and so forth. But overall, I think even within the Civil Rights movement, it was a male dominated movement. And that is why I would have loved to talk to Bratt Scott King to-
MT (00:24:35):
Or Fannie Lou Hamer. I mean, yeah. And Fannie Lou was shifting ahead somewhat.
SM (00:24:48):
Dorky Hyde was another one.
MT (00:24:49):
Yeah, Dorky Hyde was their driver. But Fannie Lou was one of the founders of the National Women's Political Caucus. I mean this was... If we go forward here now, we are going forward. I was at Columbia. I left graduate school. I left during the strike because I realized we all went on strike. And I also realized at that point, I did not want to teach. It was very hard at Columbia because the classes were... I do not know when you went through graduate school, but the classes were...
SM (00:25:23):
I started at (19)72.
MT (00:25:25):
Well, that is a little beyond, but in (19)68, our class was like 200 or 104 or something. And everybody knew all those people were not going to get jobs, but it was bloated, partly because you could still get out of the draft in graduate school. So graduate school was sort of shocked me because you had to jockey for position and politic to get the attention of professors. And so in any case, I just left. I left in (19)68, I went on strike and did not come back, is what basically happened. Now, did you get your PhD or? No, okay. And I had a 20-page paper that I did not turn in, so I did not get a master's either. But I mean, it is that sort of thing. Who cares? Although later, I think the Masters would have helped. So I left, and then I worked for something called Fax on file for three years, which is a news reference service. I sort of got into journalism that way. Excuse me. And then the magazine started, I had gone off, my boyfriend at the time was teaching in Renovo, and we had gone to stay in France for half a year or something. So I was living there, and that is the time when Miz started. And when I came back, my friend Joanne, who might mention who was the one in Tulu in the [inaudible] had been Gloria. She had gone down to work for Evers campaign, not Neicker but his brother, Charles. And so had met Gloria that way through friends of hers. Pat Darian was her friend. So Gloria had come back. She had had leave Mississippi, basically because her family put too much pressure on her. She just could not deal with it. So she came back and was Gloria's assistant at the time the magazine started. So when I came back from having left Facts on File and been in France, the magazine was starting and Joanne said, come in, because I do not want to do research, and that is what they are going to make me do. So you come in and do that so.
SM (00:28:06):
What year was this? 19...?
MT (00:28:08):
I am sorry, excuse me. The magazine's preview, who came out at the end of (19)71 and Volume one, number one came out in July of (19)72. So it was that spring, it was February of (19)72 that I came back and started working for Miz. So I do not know when I was... what Train we were on when I was thinking, oh, the caucus was starting, and the caucus also started that year at (19)71. And so Fannie, that is when I met, and I had gone to Washington briefly after I had worked with Paxon File and worked as a volunteer for the caucus, the National Women's Political Caucus. And that is what I met Fannie Lou. I mean, no, I had seen her before because I had been at the demonstrations in... Where was it? Atlantic City, the Freedom Democratic Party Demonstrations.
SM (00:29:20):
Yes, (19)64 that was. Right? (19)68.
MT (00:29:29):
(19)68.
SM (00:29:29):
No, that was (19)64, because Johnson was not... He did not run the-
MT (00:29:30):
It was (19)64, right and (19)68 was in Chicago. But I have Pan Lou had been speaking, I mean, I had seen her as an organizer, but I had not met her. And she was part of the caucus finally. So yes, there were these wonderfully strong women who were involved in the Civil Rights movement. And some of them merged into the women's movement in a way that I do not think... I mean, people talk about the women's movement as being white and middle class. Well, it certainly was not on that side of it, on the political. I think what has happened is that because the caucus was involved in politics, you immediately had this impetus to be more inclusive in terms of race and things like that so. And Gloria was always very careful too, about when she went out to speak, she always had a black woman with her as a co-speaker. So that was a kind of influential.
SM (00:30:38):
How did Gloria Steinem come to this? She had been a Playboy Bunny or once-
MT (00:30:45):
Well, no, she had done that as a story. She had gone underground as a Playboy Bunny and to write a story for... I do not think it was for New York, although she worked for New York Magazine at that point. She had gotten radicalized by the, which I think many people did, by the abortion movement in New York State. New York State decriminalized abortion, I think before a lot of other places. And she had already been sort of involved in terms of... Well, she had been a supporter, Caesar Chavez and the farm workers, but she covered the debates in law Albany about abortion, which were completely outrageous because there were not any women who were testifying about the need to decriminalize these. So there were speak outs that were organized and things like that. And that was really what she was doing. And then she started writing about women's issues for New York. And then people wanted the magazine of the... There was talk about doing a feminist magazine. And so she had meetings in her house with a lot of different editors and different writers and different activists. And that is how Miz began.
SM (00:32:26):
And that is her brainchild on there.
MT (00:32:29):
Pretty much. There were other people, Susan Brown Miller had been working at one.
SM (00:32:32):
Oh, I interviewed her.
MT (00:32:35):
She had been working at... Well, there had been a sit-in at Ladies Home Journal that Susan had been involved in. So there were different things coming together. But yes, I mean Leddy Pilger, she had written this book called How to Make It In A Man's World, but she was involved in the start of the caucus and had been sort of becoming more feminist. And Pat Carine was editor of McCall's at this point. She had been an editor at Look, so she had sort of a hard news... Not hard news, but a featuring news background as well as women's... And she was very interested. So she and Gloria sort of got together to be the two...
SM (00:33:25):
When you had just finished your undergraduate years and you were heading off to grad school, (19)66, that was also the year that the Feminine Mystique was written by-
MT (00:33:36):
Was it (19)66 or did she do it? No, I guess it was, yeah.
SM (00:33:44):
I have got down here. (19)66 was an important year because in 66, the Feminist Mystique was written and.
MT (00:33:50):
Feminine Mystique, yeah.
SM (00:33:56):
Yeah, and I also know that some of the women that were involved in the formation of the National Organization for Women were people like Paul Murray and-
SM (00:34:03):
Organization for women.
MT (00:34:03):
Right.
SM (00:34:03):
People like Pauli Murray and Shirley Chisholm. Well, Shirley was not involved in National Organization for Women, I do not think, but Pauli Murray certainly was and so was Aileen Hernandez, who you could still talk to, although you are done with your interviews, but- Aileen who?
MT (00:34:19):
Hernandez, H-E-R-N-E... I do not know. I think she sort of... I interviewed her for the [inaudible] Book. She was the second president of NOW, and she is a Black woman who still is an organizer in San Francisco.
SM (00:34:38):
Oh, wow.
MT (00:34:39):
So-
SM (00:34:39):
I have interviewed 22 people.
MT (00:34:40):
Yeah, I know. I can get you her email if you want.
SM (00:34:46):
Yeah.
MT (00:34:46):
Then you could just ask her some questions-
SM (00:34:49):
I am going to be out in San Francisco. I am done with the interviews, but I continue to have them, some people that I contacted a long time ago, or now contact-
MT (00:35:01):
Yeah, I think she still will. I mean, she is getting up there.
SM (00:35:06):
How important was that book?
MT (00:35:08):
To me, I did not even know about it.
SM (00:35:10):
Okay. You did not know about it?
MT (00:35:12):
No, but it was very important to a group of people who felt trapped in that role. I am a little bit younger and definitely was not trapped in that role. I mean, I certainly went through periods of domesticity, but I knew about it later. I met Betty when the caucus was forming and she was a little bit antagonistic about the magazine, about Bella and Gloria. Bella was also involved in the caucus formation, so there was a little tension there. I think Betty and Bella made peace at the end of their lives, but those are two strong personalities.
SM (00:36:15):
Oh, yeah. Definitely.
MT (00:36:18):
Barbara Jordan was very important too, to the-
SM (00:36:22):
Oh, yeah.
MT (00:36:23):
...to the women's movement. Bella and Shirley, you can see in my book, they collaborated on childcare. It was so interesting. You should read the interviews in that book that I did with Marco Politi, who was Bella's aid. Because they just failed, there was legislation dealing with women's issues that just sailed through Congress at a great rate in the early (19)70s.
SM (00:36:56):
And that is due mainly to the-
MT (00:37:00):
Yeah, to Bella and to Shirley. I am trying to think if there are other people. There were some other congresswomen who were...
SM (00:37:08):
Yeah, Shirley came to our campus. I met her. I have a lot of pictures of her when she was there.
MT (00:37:17):
They had very strong voices. And it was a sort of... But they were stopped on some issues. The main one being that I can... Well, the RA of course, I mean, it sailed through Congress, but then it was stopped in the States, but also childcare, because Nixon vetoed it. That is I think, a very important event, because had he not vetoed that bill, it was set up to not just provide childcare for poor people, but to set a structure that would have involved middle class women as well and I am sure would have become...
SM (00:37:59):
Why did he veto it? Was he-
MT (00:38:01):
Socialist. It was communist plot.
SM (00:38:01):
Okay, so he was actively anti-
MT (00:38:08):
I mean, I do not think he believed that. I think partly, it was political. It was catering to... Maybe he did believe it. I do not know. But that is what the anti-childcare... You do not want the government bringing up your children, which of course, not what was going to happen but-
SM (00:38:28):
Hey, with all the criticisms they have of Richard Nixon as a president, he was much more liberal than people realized.
MT (00:38:34):
Well, that is right.
SM (00:38:34):
...particularly on a lot of the social issues. And of course, his international firm in reaching out to China, no matter what you say, that was excellent. Some people I have interviewed have said that was only the major happenings of-
MT (00:38:50):
Oh, I think so. I went to-
SM (00:38:52):
...and yet he destroyed it all by what he did in the-
MT (00:38:56):
Well, but I mean, he was also not trustworthy. Even the childcare thing proves that.
SM (00:39:04):
Yeah.
MT (00:39:05):
I went to China in 1978 with a group of journalists. It was soon enough after that, it was right after the Gang of Four fell.
SM (00:39:15):
Oh yes. Yeah.
MT (00:39:16):
So it was a really interesting period. Anyway.
SM (00:39:19):
What happened in the early (19)70s that created the second wave in the women's movement?
MT (00:39:25):
Well, there were these-
SM (00:39:25):
[inaudible] as a boomer-
MT (00:39:25):
Go ahead.
SM (00:39:28):
When you look at boomers, I have to preface this by saying that boomers are those more between (19)46 and (19)64. But I also include, after interviewing so many people, people that I consider having the spirit and the role modeling that many of the people between 35 and 45 have of the boomers. So really, when I say boomer, I am talking about in terms of mentality.
MT (00:39:56):
Right.
SM (00:39:57):
And time wise. Have you been pleased with the way these boomers have actually carried on the women's movement? We are today into the third wave of some... It is a two-part question. What happened in 19-
MT (00:40:14):
(19)70.
SM (00:40:14):
What happened in the early (19)70s for the second wave to start? And when and why did the third wave start in the (19)90s? Because a lot of criticism today of the third wave is kind of isolated. You do not see them out there and as visible as you saw the second wave.
MT (00:40:34):
Well, I mean, I would say the second wave, there were two strains, and I am sure Joe will have told you this, Freeman, because she writes about it, I think. There was a group that was organized around women's rights that basically came out of the Kennedy Commission. There was a commission that Kennedy formed on women's rights, which was a basic commission on the status of women that did a study of women's rights. And a lot of the early NOW people and WEAL, Women's Equity Action League is another important one, the people that founded NOW, some of them were commissioners or staff people on that commission. There is a woman named Catherine East who was at the Women's Bureau for years and had been involved in that commission. And she is someone who collected data forever and ever until it came to the Bush administration who had started throwing out that capacity of the labor department to produce data that supported job actions and things like that. So there was all that going on in sort of legislative women's rights angle. And then there was the group of the more radical feminists that came out of the anti-war and Civil Rights movement, who came out more of a protest movement. And Joe would consider herself part of that as Robin Morgan, all sorts of people. And that was another. And so those two groups sometimes on a couple of issues were a little antagonistic. One of the only one I remember is that there was a move to stop for sterilization among especially Latina women in New York. And some NOW people were against that, because they thought part of it was a waiting period before you could sterilize a woman. And that was too close to the limitations they were putting on abortion. So there were certain clashes. But basically there were two very strong segments that gave a sort of legal and street cred to the women's movement, that was quite strong. And that was all going on in the (19)70s. That is when [inaudible] had its heyday. And you can see from the letters that when we started publishing, people from all over the country said, "I thought I was the only person who felt this way."
SM (00:43:44):
It has happened many times.
MT (00:43:47):
Just astonishing. So there was this whole untapped reservoir feeling, which I think was organized during that time. And then what happened? I mean, I will just go on, but you can stop me and ask questions. I do not think there was, or at least I do not see it as a sort of stop and start thing. What I see is a lot of people organizing less in national groups, but in more local things or around particular issues. I mean, for instance, in the women's movement here in the United States, rape was an important issue. In England, it was more organized around domestic violence, but they were both sort of against violence against women and those cross fertilized. But people became... As opposed to in some multi-issue organization, they would start rape crisis centers, or they would start domestic violence centers, or they would work for gay rights. And then there was a whole thing where all those things were brought together in a national way, was at the Houston Conference, which was in 1977, which Bella got government funding for.
SM (00:45:16):
I have a book on at that conference. [inaudible]
MT (00:45:26):
So that is what I think happened. I think there was a lot of just people and Black women would organize, and Latina women would organize. And I mean, I think it was sort of a natural thing when people started directing their energies to more specific issues. And as far as I am concerned, it was all part of the women's movement. I that we always saw it as that. And there was the campus, a lot of women's studies was a big center.
SM (00:46:07):
Yeah. It is interesting. When I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly, who was one of the main people, one of the reasons why the Equal Rights Amendment did not pass, I think it was 35 states passed it, but you need 38.
MT (00:46:24):
Yeah. It was ridiculous. I mean, when we started [inaudible] we said it will be passed within a month or two. It will be ratified.
SM (00:46:33):
It was not passed in Ohio, because I remember my former boss who just passed away, who was one of the leaders of the Ohio movement, she just about cried.
MT (00:46:43):
I think it was ratified and then it was taken back or something, I think that is what-
SM (00:46:48):
I do not know. I remember the vote was... And I worked at OU at the time, and she was listening to it on the radio from Columbus. And I can remember when she came out, she broke down, because she-
MT (00:46:59):
Well, it was just-
SM (00:46:59):
...just spent two years on it.
MT (00:47:01):
It was shocking, because it seemed so basic. And as I said, it had gone through, the only hitch of going through Congress was the labor movement, who did not want to give up protections. I mean the shorter hours for women and things like that. But once that was worked through-
SM (00:47:23):
So the criticisms of the women's movement today is that people try to compare it to the way it was in the (19)70s where-
MT (00:47:32):
It was a national-
SM (00:47:36):
...there were protests. They were unified with many other groups. It could be the anti-war groups, the civil rights groups, the gay and lesbian groups, the environmental groups. There seem to be-
MT (00:47:47):
More culture.
SM (00:47:48):
...in protest, a unity amongst all these groups. Now, today, even when I am talking to lesbian leaders, it is isolated. We do not see the groups together. They are into their own thing. They are not working together. I am not sure they might be working together, as someone said in Congress, but they are certainly not being visible together.
MT (00:48:14):
No, they are not visible in the same way. They are not visible in the same way as a sort of protest movement. Maybe that is because... Partly it is because they are so successful in changing minds, at least in terms of women's movement. But there are certainly... I am trying to think of where... There is a lot, I mean, there are other kinds of campus actions. Well, throughout this whole period, there are things like Take Back the Night marches, which is something that certainly still motivates younger feminists.
SM (00:49:00):
And what is the purpose of that? We have it every year on our campus [inaudible]. But what is it, these people are reading this. A lot of people believe that it is because those people were murdered up in Canada.
MT (00:49:15):
No, it was not really that. Anyway-
SM (00:49:17):
A lot of people at Westchester University thinks that is why it happened. So they are misinformed.
MT (00:49:21):
Well, I mean, I do not connect it. Certainly that was a big issue, but mostly it was because of predatory people on campuses that were... Take Back the Night was, women should feel safe walking through their own campus. I mean, there was a whole issues about acquaintance rape that were developed during the (19)70s and (19)80s. And so I mean, there was more of that impetus than the Canada one, I think.
SM (00:50:15):
Yeah. And another big issue was that pill that college students were-
MT (00:50:20):
Yeah, the date rape.
SM (00:50:21):
Yeah, date rape.
MT (00:50:23):
Pill.
SM (00:50:23):
And they would knock a female out. And that was big in Westchester, because two guys did it and they were caught. I mean, they were nice guys. Did not think they were not very ice.
MT (00:50:37):
Yeah, I know.
SM (00:50:41):
Their parents found out about their two sons and boy they were gone.
MT (00:50:46):
So there are those issues that I think motivate younger women. And I think the abortion issue is one that is now things that younger women took for granted are now coming into play again.
SM (00:51:04):
One female leader told me in an interview, and I will not mention the name, she said, she will visit the National Organization for Women Office now. And all she will see, as far as the literature is concerned, is literature on abortion, literature on aids, literature on was the third one, reproductive rights or something like that. And a lot of the issues centering on equal pay, being hired like a man is high. The issues that were many times front and center in the women's movement, do not seem to be like-
MT (00:51:48):
Well, I do not think that that is exactly true. Not with that particular issue. Because of the woman who brought suit, Congress had to overturn the Supreme Court ruling on, why am I forgetting her name? The equal pay thing. And then now there is currently a push to, there is an equal pay law that is in Congress now. That is a big thing. So I think that issue, but I think probably that is always been true of now that they have been more on sort of legalistic and abortion front than they have been active and effective on...
SM (00:52:32):
And this same person was very critical of an organization, because they did not even deal with the issue of pornography.
MT (00:52:42):
No.
SM (00:52:43):
They let it ride. I mean, there is nothing, that you would only ever see them...
MT (00:52:47):
But yeah, that was not there. Again, there were anti porn feminist groups. There was a clash between free speech feminists and anti porn feminists that we certainly documented in [inaudible]. There was a cover that said one woman's pornography is another woman's erotica. I mean, yeah, I mean that there was active kinds of...
SM (00:53:18):
See, another thing that came out too, you are dealing with different ethnic groups. Because I think [inaudible] has done a great job in that area, because I had looked at the literature and I see people of color from the get go.
MT (00:53:30):
Absolutely. But that is not seen as-
SM (00:53:32):
Yeah. But genetic colon, I think in one of the early folks, sister president, she talked about the pressures within her own African American community. When someone would ask her, this is when she is president of Stone, would ask her, well, what cause are you really identified with, are you really one of us, which is being the African American issues of racism? Or are you a feminist? Are you a African American first or a feminist first? And then there was a whole issue of the gay and lesbian. Where do you fall on that? Because she had dealt with some issues with the school on that. So she felt conflicted over the first two. And from her peers. Is that a pretty common pressure?
MT (00:54:19):
I think it is. Although how ridiculous is that? I mean, the core issue are I mean, they should be the tightest coalition. So that exists. And they have been in various times. But I certainly think that Genetical and many other Black women have felt that pressure. And it is one of the reasons that Gloria was so tried to be so careful about having two people out there. But certainly the women's movement has been criticized often as being a Lilly white movement. And as I said, it just was not.
SM (00:55:01):
When I first started this project, and I mentioned doing a dual book on the Boomer generation, that is about white men, is not it? I have perceptions of boomers as being white men and white women, but not, and no, it is everybody. And so I try, Native American, you name it.
MT (00:55:21):
You talked to LaDonna too, did not you?
SM (00:55:21):
I have talked to LaDonna.
MT (00:55:21):
So that is good.
SM (00:55:21):
Unbelievable. What a great-
MT (00:55:21):
And she was one of the founders of the caucus too.
SM (00:55:31):
Yeah. In fact, she is coming to, she is fighting cancer, and I probably should not review that, but I interviewed her and depends on her health will depend upon her coming back east this summer, because they have started the [inaudible] Center and I think at Indiana, no, not Indiana, California, University of Pennsylvania. And I said, if she comes back, I want to take her to lunch. But I have not heard. But what a great person.
MT (00:56:05):
Well, and also the Cherokee woman, why cannot I remember her?
SM (00:56:10):
You mean [inaudible]?
MT (00:56:12):
No. I will think of her name.
SM (00:56:15):
Wilma Manquel?
MT (00:56:16):
Wilma. Yeah, Wilma. I mean, she was a very good friend of Gloria's and lovely woman. And Ladonna's daughter is an organizer.
SM (00:56:28):
Yes. And I talked to her husband, Fred Harris too. I mean, even though they are divorced, they are still close as anything. What began, this might be a little repetitive, but what began as a battle for equal pay, an equal status of all women in American life, in the area of jobs going to college, sports, leadership roles, politics? Why did the following issues become so forceful when now is organized? And [inaudible] Magazine came out and I talk about the abortion rights and the Roby Wade of (19)73 and the ERA of (19)74, which I mentioned earlier, then reproductive rights and certainly all the isms, were very important to now. And certainly lesbian rights became important as well, gay rights. Why did those take center stage?
MT (00:57:31):
Well, I think they took center stage, because they were easy to grasp. I think when the caucus was founded, one of the arguments that Bella and Gloria had with Betty is whether to include an anti-violence plank, an anti-war plank? And Gloria and Bella won that argument. So part of the organizing foundation of the caucus was, which had always been a strong part of women's movement since Women's Strike for Peace, was that kind of group. But I think the sort of more simple, or even symbolic, if you think of it that way, of the ERA, were easy to organize. And abortion touched everyone's life. I mean, people remembered, if you are my age, many people went for back alley abortions. So that was really a strong issue. But then I think the issues of domestic violence and violence against women in pornography and those issues emerged as something that the women's movement was deeply concerned about. And then international feminism was at the end of the, basically, I mean it had been around all the time, but basically at the end of the (19)80s became very important. And then-
SM (00:59:11):
Robin Warren wrote a book on that.
MT (00:59:13):
Robin did, and Bella was very involved in international families. And Robin worked, I mean, she did, sisterhood was global, which was the anthology. And then that brought in development issues and environmental issues worldwide for women. And that is a very strong strain of women's movement today.
SM (00:59:43):
When you look at all these, the progression movement women have gone through in the, I would say (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, (19)90s, and right through today, and think of the women who were the mothers of the generation, the boomer generation, 17 million from 1946 after the war ended, to 1960, early (19)60s.
MT (01:00:07):
Excuse me.
SM (01:00:08):
These issues, many of them probably were not even being discussed by them, meant like Phyllis Schlafly says, "What is wrong with raising children and being fulfilled as a mother?" I mean, that was the way it was back then. And she says, feels her greatest accomplishment was her kids and being there for her husband, despite all of her accomplishments as a writer, as a lawyer, as she will go back to those two things.
MT (01:00:33):
Yeah, that is ridiculous.
SM (01:00:35):
Yeah. But you see, she said she speaks for a lot of women. But so you have the conflict where you read a book and say that most women were not fulfilled in the (19)50s, but they just could not express it. And they raised the kids, but they were very unhappy and probably would have divorced, but they kept together.
MT (01:00:57):
No, I do not think most women would say that. I do not think that is true. I think a lot of women were, my mother certainly never felt unfulfilled. And Gloria has always said that raising a human being is probably the most challenging job in the world. I mean, I think the thing is that it helps if fathers get involved too. And that is the real push. And I think it is happening. I mean, my nephew is a much different person by far than his father's generation, in terms of what he expects out of his life and the kinds of things he does in his marriage.
SM (01:01:50):
One of the things kids would say is the father was always away and the mom was always at home. So they were closer to the mom, obviously.
MT (01:01:54):
Yeah.
SM (01:01:58):
Because the father was away making a living. Now you see a reverse where the husband might be at home. A lot of things, a lot of changes are going on.
MT (01:02:11):
Yeah.
SM (01:02:11):
Definitely.
MT (01:02:12):
And that generation has completely different expectations. So I think that is very interesting.
SM (01:02:18):
Some say that, I always use that term some, because I have interviewed so many people, that Betty [inaudible], Gloria Steinem are mainstream feminists and they are really not radical [inaudible]. Few things here. What is the difference between a radical feminist and a mainstream feminist? Because people that are...
SM (01:02:38):
There you go.
MT (01:02:38):
Well-
SM (01:02:38):
Hold on.
MT (01:02:38):
Okay.
SM (01:02:39):
Let me turn this over here. And so you are doing both. I have been doing two takes halfway through first 100 and I only did one take.
MT (01:03:05):
Well, I do not think that is a correct analysis. I mean, I know people that have that analysis. Mostly they are academic feminists, I think. I would say that, I mean, Gloria's certainly a radical. I mean, I am less sure about Fredan. I was never that close to her. And I think it is probably not true. I mean, as I have indicated, she had to be talked into the anti-war plank. She had a problem at the beginning with having the women's movement involved with lesbian rights. So I think that was a sort of different frame of mind. But I think Gloria has always been fairly radical. Across the board, I do not think she would define herself as one thing or another, but she is open to any number of issues. So I do not see this clear divide between, I see it at the beginning as I described how they arose from any more movement and the more women's rights movement. But I do not see it going forward. I mean, I think once you get involved in the particular issues of feminism, maybe there are radical approaches and there are legal approaches. But a lot of those work together. I mean, I think it is more in sort of academic theoretical circles that you get this kind of insistence on the division and what is mainstream and what is known. There is always who is known and who is called upon and who is lesser now?
SM (01:04:56):
Where would you place from different era here now, because I have been from an academic environment, and I know that people have talked about it in some of our programs, not in any of my interviews, but there is a difference between mainstream and radical. And where would you place the following people, people that we grew up with and know historically, Bella, Shirley Chisholm, Molly Yard, Tricia Ireland, Eleanor Smeal, Robin Morgan, Mary Daley, who just passed away recently. Jermaine Greer, who I met six months ago.
MT (01:05:41):
Jermaine is a trick. I mean, she is gone.
SM (01:05:46):
And so then of course, Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton and...
MT (01:05:48):
I do not know-
SM (01:05:48):
And Helen Gurley Brown and Susan Brown Miller. And you have got Rebecca Walker and LaDonna Harris, Carol Gilligan and Winona Rider.
MT (01:06:02):
And Alice Walker.
SM (01:06:05):
Yeah. So there is a lot of different ones there.
MT (01:06:07):
But I do not know, I could try to figure out how they think of themselves or how they rose, what strain they came out of. But I mean, certainly Robin came out of a radical strain. But I cannot really define people that way. I mean, Dorothy Hyde came out of a very sort of traditional women's organization kind of place. But I think tactically things work at different times, different tactics work at different times, which is how I would approach whatever issue I was interested in. I mean, when Gloria speaks, she tries to tell her audience, do one outreaches act today. I mean, that is your form of organizing, which makes you think. But I mean, I think basically what is appropriate in terms of, and I think that although it is a sort of mainstream outcome, the idea that Bella was able to get money from Congress to put on the largest, actually the largest democratically elected conclave that there ever has been in this country, which is what the Houston Conference was, is pretty radical. I mean, it is not radical if you define radical as something other than electoral politics. And then if you look at the agenda- And then if you look at the agenda that came out at the Houston conference, it is completely inclusive.
SM (01:08:14):
You might even say the same thing though, the way you are describing it here is what people felt in 1848 with Elizabeth...
MT (01:08:14):
That is right.
SM (01:08:20):
Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, who believed that they were connected to the hip, when in reality they had tremendous disagreements later in life. I think they split at some juncture.
MT (01:08:32):
I am not sure. I do not know that they split.
SM (01:08:36):
I forget what the issue was, but there was a big one later on.
MT (01:08:40):
Well, there was a big issue with black women, with the race issue. Because at one point, I do not know who it was...
SM (01:08:42):
Frederick Douglass was very close to Elizabeth Cady Stanton.
MT (01:08:42):
Yeah.
SM (01:08:56):
And of course then Susan B. Anthony was coming from Rochester and that is where [inaudible] had the North star, the newspaper.
MT (01:09:05):
Yeah.
SM (01:09:07):
Maybe what you are saying is that we are seeing it is a different era, a different time. So how you define people is very difficult because one person's radical is another person's mainstream.
MT (01:09:26):
Or people can be mainstream and radical in their life.
SM (01:09:31):
Yeah.
MT (01:09:31):
Whatever. At whatever point one tactic works and another does not.
SM (01:09:43):
Yeah.
MT (01:09:43):
That is how I think of myself. I do not give myself those labels.
SM (01:09:45):
When you look at the women's movement, of course conservative women are, we all know Phyllis Schlafly, but a lot of people do not know others.
MT (01:09:56):
Well, there is Sarah Palin and...
SM (01:10:01):
Yeah. Well, there is Sarah Palin. The ones that I have listed here are more recent. Of course, Phyllis Schlafly, Gertrude Himmelfarb is older. Sarah Palin, Margaret Thatcher from England, Michelle Easton.
MT (01:10:17):
I do not know.
SM (01:10:17):
She does the Clare Boothe Luce Institute at Clare Boothe Luce And then of course, there is Ann...
MT (01:10:23):
Brockman.
SM (01:10:25):
Yes. Brockman. And then you got Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Laura Ingram, [inaudible] Buchanan and I cannot even read the last person. But yeah, Ms. Brockman.
MT (01:10:42):
It is nuts. These women are nuts.
SM (01:10:44):
When the women's movement looks at them. Is it like the Black caucus from Washington looking at the JC Watts and the other John who was a conservative? Is it right to eliminate a group because of their politics or a women's...
MT (01:11:03):
Yeah. Yeah. The reason it is right is that they are not champions of other women. And in that sense, they are not feminists. If you do not support services for women or equal pay, equal rights for women or childcare, I do not know how you can call yourself a feminist. I think Sarah Palin probably does, but as far as I am concerned, it is mislabeling. And I have to quote, going again, said, "We are never in favor of Eva Braun becoming head of state."
SM (01:11:46):
Yeah.
MT (01:11:46):
It is not a matter of gender at that point. It is a matter of outlook and interest.
SM (01:12:01):
And a lot of people used the black caucus in Washington as the best, especially when JC Watts was there, was very popular.
MT (01:12:10):
Right.
SM (01:12:13):
Former [inaudible] star. They would not get him the time of day because he was a conservative. And the other guy was Franks, was his name, the guy that proceeded him, he was conservative too. But that stirs some of the college... I work with college students and why not be inclusive even though they are...
MT (01:12:32):
Well, because their aims are different than yours.
SM (01:12:34):
Yeah.
MT (01:12:36):
That is the answer, there are people that have called themselves feminists and have been promoters of Sarah Palin but...
SM (01:12:50):
I got quite a few more questions and I only got 30 minutes to go here. What are the main accomplishments of the women's movement up to the third wave? And what has the third wave really done to add to the movement? And when I am dealing with college students and high school students who do not read their history, in your own words define first wave, second wave, third wave and their accomplishments.
MT (01:13:22):
I am not quite sure I can, but I can take a stab at some of this. I think a main accomplishment was simply put, when I graduated from college, I could not get a loan in my own name. I had to have my father sign for a Bloomingdale's card. So different pieces of legislation like equal credit legislation and things like that have been very empowering and part of that has to do with economic changes because women were more and more in the workforce. But I think that was certainly part of the women's movement. And the other thing is I think how feminists and others influenced by feminism have brought up their children. I think they are completely different expectations. As we talked about before, probably not all over the country, but between my nephew's generation and he is 30 now, is he 30? He may be older than 30. Well, in any case, he is in his 30s and generations that came before in terms of what gender roles would be. And another enormous contribution I think is the linking of international feminism. So that now...
SM (01:15:04):
A third wave, is not it?
MT (01:15:04):
Yeah. I think it came to fruition in the third wave, although I think, as I said, Bella was a big mover of that, and Robin and different people. But at the moment, I edit for the Women's Media Center. Well, you know that...
SM (01:15:19):
I love your website.
MT (01:15:21):
Oh, good.
SM (01:15:22):
I like your logo too.
MT (01:15:23):
Yeah.
SM (01:15:23):
Yeah.
MT (01:15:25):
But I just have a piece that I am going to put up based on an interview with Yanar Mohammed, who is head of a women's rights organization in Iraq.
SM (01:15:36):
Wow.
MT (01:15:36):
And we know these people. A friend of mine who also writes for me, Shazia Raki, I think her name is, is Secretary General. That is how they title them, of an international organization of parliamentarians, parliamentarians for human rights or something like that. And she is in contact with different women in parliament all over the world. And so we do the organization, Bella organized with men [inaudible], it is not as powerful as it used to be, but it is conceptually organized to promote women's development and the environment. There is this bringing together of those issues because environmental issues impact women so much more directly than men in the developing world.
SM (01:17:00):
There was the big conference and was it in China couple years ago?
MT (01:17:04):
It was a couple, being in 1995.
SM (01:17:08):
Yeah, that was a major...
MT (01:17:10):
Yeah. And that was the fourth of international conference. So that had been going on since... Mexico City was the first one. And then, oh, in Mexico City and in Europe, one in Europe and one in Africa, and then this one in Beijing, which was the culmination.
SM (01:17:30):
I think Hillary Clinton went to that, I think.
MT (01:17:39):
Hillary was there and she still has that message about women's rights, I think.
SM (01:17:52):
It is interesting about when people try to look at the history. If you look at 1848 Seneca Falls, and I go there every year. I took my dad there before he died, we had a great day there and...
MT (01:17:53):
It is beautiful for one thing.
SM (01:17:57):
Yeah, it is a beautiful place. And I go there just to take it all in. I go to Elizabeth Cady Stanton's home to get a feel for the history that took place in that house, which was basically the same and the furniture has gone, the sofa is still there, and the sofa that Frederick Douglass found.
MT (01:18:14):
Oh, wow.
SM (01:18:27):
You could feel, I can just feel when I was with my dad, their presence. When you look at the history from 1848 through today, we talk about first wave feminism that began at Seneca Falls. And we talk about the (19)70s, late (19)60s and (19)70s, and then the late (19)90s. But another period was around the prohibition period.
MT (01:18:44):
Right. The reform period.
SM (01:18:46):
And I do not know why they do not consider that second wave and then the (19)60s third wave.
MT (01:18:52):
Well, I think you could, there is a continuum. You are right. Except that there was, after the vote, I think people expected a lot more to happen. So I think the expectations were greater than what happened. And maybe that is why people cut it off. But then Eleanor Roosevelt, she was very instrumental in the commissions on the status of women in the Kennedy Commission. So I would put her as one of the...
SM (01:19:30):
You wrote several books, you wrote a book on Ms. Magazine, Letters to Ms.
MT (01:19:31):
Right.
SM (01:19:41):
I think it is a great book. And what did you learn from writing these books that you did not know before you started? And maybe I will add the book that you just wrote too.
MT (01:19:50):
Bella.
SM (01:19:51):
Bella. What surprised you the most when you wrote these books? Because you have a tremendous knowledge already.
MT (01:19:59):
Yes. I did. I think of the different... Because I did approach them, all of them actually as oral history volumes, that was not so much oral history that it was stories through letters so it was the same kind of thing. And I think what surprised me was the incredibly different ways that people come into consciousness. That is an old women's movement word, but into realizing, into the place where they start interacting with the world as feminists mostly, I have been dealing with feminists. So I think oral history is a powerful tool for that because you find out what is in peoples' background so that was surprising. When I did the Bella book, a lot of the surprising things... Well, I just found out about wonderful collaborations between Bella and Ron Dellums for instance. I had no idea and I just had a wonderful interview with Ron Dellums, who...
SM (01:21:10):
He is the mayor of Oakland.
MT (01:21:13):
This is right before he became mayor of Oakland when I interviewed him for that book. But he came into Congress the same year that Bella did. And they had this wonderful, incredibly warm relationship. But he was able to describe in this, it was just a terrific interview.
SM (01:21:38):
You already wrote a book, you know the experience with Bella and Mr. Dellums and of course we know about Elizabeth Cady...
MT (01:21:47):
Well, that is interesting.
SM (01:21:50):
With Douglass. The relationship between a powerful woman feminist with a feminist mind and an African American male...
MT (01:21:58):
Yeah. That is interesting.
SM (01:21:58):
Who has a sensitivity to women's issues as well, as issues of racism within his or her own community, I would think that would make a great book.
MT (01:22:07):
That is interesting. Well, I would like to write another book. So those things are wonderful. The other wonderful interviews I had with the Bella book, for instance, there was one with...
SM (01:22:24):
Chicken. Yeah.
MT (01:22:24):
There was one with a man who was a young lawyer with Bella. They were both entering lawyers in this law firm. And I just loved his mind because for us, he just set up the whole feeling of what law was after the second World War and labor law in particular, and the clashes that were going on and the fact that labor people had put off demands during the second World War. And then after the war was over, all this was bubbling forth. And there is another interview I had with Ireland, I cannot remember his first name. He was a journalist basically but he set up the whole sense of how things happened in the (19)50s.
SM (01:23:20):
Oh, wow.
MT (01:23:22):
And led into... So just these people with minds that could understand what was happening in social, the same thing you are trying to do, is understand what was happening in social movements. And with that book, those interviews were just astonishing to me because they would just bring in all the trains and make sense of things.
SM (01:23:47):
See, what comes out of this and the word 'context' comes out of everything. And I have always believed that we do not, I remember African Americans in the (19)70s saying that, "You do not know what it is like, you live in white skin. And whoever hears someone say they understand us, I doubt it. They have not lived like we do." So that is always been the subject that I am very sensitive to. And I do not believe we should be judging people, that is why context is important to understand from their, because they are the ones who live their lives. We did not live their lives. Let me check my time here.
MT (01:24:17):
It is just quarter after one.
SM (01:24:17):
Yeah. We got time, you are fine. One other thing, you have probably heard this before...
MT (01:24:35):
Oh. Of course, Liz. I should say, of course Liz was involved in all of this early (19)70s legislation too, which I...
SM (01:24:39):
Right.
MT (01:24:40):
But go ahead.
SM (01:24:41):
Yeah. And I am going to be talking to her a lot about Watergate and...
MT (01:24:44):
Oh, that is right. She and Barbara Jordan.
SM (01:24:47):
Yeah. Talked to her a lot about that. One of the things that I have heard from critics, with some of those conservatives that I mentioned is that some people say that feminists hate men.
MT (01:25:03):
Yeah, no.
SM (01:25:07):
And Ann Coulter is actually, we had her on the campus. She is actually a pretty nice person. I think she plays the game when she is on in front of a camera, but when she is behind, when you see her one-on-one, she did not even talk about that stuff. She talks about going to Cornell and it is amazing, her best friends are liberals.
MT (01:25:33):
Well...
SM (01:25:34):
Conservatives do not like her that well. They like her when she goes to the conferences and students and everything. But she has a, I know this for a fact because I have had friends in Washington and that her best friends are all liberals. And they chide her, based on the books she is writing. So anyway, let us not talk too much about her, but when you hear that, what do you...
MT (01:25:57):
Man hating?
SM (01:25:58):
Yeah.
MT (01:26:00):
That is always been a charge and that actually was one of the early charges that Betty had against, accused Bella and Gloria being man hating, which was ridiculous. Especially Bella, who had the sweetest, most lovely relationship with Martin that I have ever seen in terms of a married couple. Well, men were in positions of power, in terms of women's goals or in the position of being predators when it comes to issues of violence against women. But that did not mean that feminists had something against individual men or did not welcome men as partners in fighting these issues, as valuable partners in terms of some of these issues, speaking out.
SM (01:27:12):
It is interesting because Hugh Hefner comes up a lot in some of the conversations, and I believe he supports women's rights.
MT (01:27:28):
No, he supported his daughter.
SM (01:27:28):
Yeah. And the thing is, and he has always said that he did Playboy Magazine because it is art. It is artistic and he does not believe it is pornography and the beauty of the body and he is like an artist. And that is a conflict also within some of the people who try to understand though. And then the women, they grew up in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, they want to be looked at not just as an object, but...
MT (01:27:59):
Right. That is the point. And I do not think it is necessarily pornography either, but it certainly does not respect, the issue is respect. And I think Hefner, the Playboy Foundation tried to give money to all sorts of, to the ERA and to other causes. And did at some point, but to other points, women's groups sometimes rejected those. But I do not think it was a matter... I think it is a matter of respect and you take this man who treats women interchangeably, obviously. Even now, what does he have, three...
SM (01:28:34):
He was married.
MT (01:28:38):
Marry someone but there was three, you could not really...
SM (01:28:42):
Yeah, he got that TV show.
MT (01:28:42):
Right.
SM (01:28:46):
Yeah, they are all gone now.
MT (01:28:46):
Yeah.
SM (01:28:49):
He said he was going to marry that 25-year-old that broke off the last minute.
MT (01:28:53):
Whatever. You just cannot, I am sure he loves his daughter and I think he probably did have sympathy for some of these issues. But the basic thing is, I am not a big anti-porn feminist because I think sometimes they take it, the anti-porn people take it too far. But I do agree that people that are involved in pornography and involved in trafficking, mostly women are there against their will, against their economic will. Even if they...
SM (01:29:42):
The thing that surprises me is how many women today, young women who do pose for...
MT (01:29:48):
I think that...
SM (01:29:49):
They have no sensitivity; no knowledge of past history and they do not give a damn.
MT (01:29:54):
I know. But they are also, and more power to them, much more comfortable with their bodies and with their degrees of sexuality than my generation. So in a way that is all great.
SM (01:30:09):
Boomer women were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I mentioned that spiritually their people were older. How do Boomer women differ from Generation X and Millennial women who are connected more to the third wave than the second wave? And how important have young Boomers been activism wise since their youth in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? Now, the young people in the late (19)60s and (19)70s were coming into their own in their early 20s at the time of the women's movement beginning. And I have always tried to understand it from the well-established writers and thinkers within the women's movement, are they disappointed? In terms of the people that have followed them? And can you compare the generations that have followed, there has been two. Generation X, which at times really could not stand the older generation.
MT (01:31:19):
Well, 'feminism' became a bad word. But the causes, they certainly clung to the same causes, that same causes define their lives in many ways. So although 'feminism' became a dirty word at beginning in about, well, the (19)80s...
SM (01:31:46):
When Reagan came in.
MT (01:31:46):
When Reagan came in and there was a lot of conflict. I think there is a lot of, there was discomfort and certainly young people were uncomfortable being branded as feminists in part because of the charge that feminists hated men and all this stuff.
SM (01:32:04):
Generation [inaudible].
MT (01:32:05):
Yeah, exactly. And occasionally I would go to conferences and there is the wonderful history conference that, I do not know if it is still happening, but the Berkshires conference, which happened every four years and brought together all sorts of wonderful... And I remember a panel there in, it must have been the (19)80s, where there were older academics, feminists saying, "You younger women do not know, you just take everything for granted", blah, blah, blah. And one young woman got up and said, "Is not that what you want?" Which is just a wonderful comment. And of course it is.
SM (01:32:58):
Yeah.
MT (01:32:59):
And you cannot help but think, oh, they should know what struggles we went through. But in fact, the idea that the subsequent generations take for granted what you worked for is about the best validation you could think of.
SM (01:33:18):
Yeah, I think that is really true today for the Millennials. Yeah. They take for granted. But this is my perception, I think they truly care.
MT (01:33:28):
Oh, yeah.
SM (01:33:29):
And I believe they are very cognizant of the women's movement. I think women in college today are, I consider them much stronger than the Generation Xers.
MT (01:33:39):
Before.
SM (01:33:39):
And I see a link between Millennials and Boomers and with respect to the fact that they want to leave a legacy and make the world better, Boomers wanted to do it sooner and oftentimes without thinking that they want to do it sooner. But Millennials want to do it later, after 40. They want to raise a family. I have done that reading of Hunter Strauss's book on the generations.
MT (01:34:07):
Mm-hmm.
SM (01:34:08):
So I look at today's generations in a very positive way. I have had negatives a long time for Generation X.
MT (01:34:15):
Well, I think maybe the current generation is less affected by the negative feelings about activism, feminism, about things like man hating or things like making... I do not know. I think that could well be that there is this reaction to how aggressive the earlier activists were.
SM (01:34:51):
We did panels on the Boomer generation and Generation X at our college for two years. And there was a tension in the room between Boomers and they were Boomer faculty members basically and the Generation X students who were the sons and daughters of Boomers. It is interesting. But today, 85 percent of all the college students are the sons and daughters of Generation X people whereas 15 percent are still Boomer kids. But back in those days, in the (19)90s, they were mostly all from the Boomers. And two things came out of it, they were tired of hearing about the nostalgia about what it was like back then.
MT (01:35:35):
Certainly nostalgia was [inaudible].
SM (01:35:37):
Yeah.
MT (01:35:37):
You cannot...
SM (01:35:39):
And then the second thing was, "I wish I had lived then."
MT (01:35:41):
Right.
SM (01:35:58):
Because you had causes and we had nothing.
MT (01:35:58):
Well, I think...
SM (01:35:58):
That was the (19)90s. That is not now.
MT (01:35:58):
Yeah, it was the (19)90s. But I think it would be hard to replicate the (19)60s. You look at what was happening so quickly, the music and going along with it and the culture. It was...
SM (01:36:07):
See, the only thing they really had was the anti-apartheid movement which was happening.
MT (01:36:08):
That is true.
SM (01:36:12):
That was important. But it was not everything. What does it mean to be a feminist in your own words? And does the women's movement differ from the feminist movement?
MT (01:36:26):
Oh, I use them interchangeably. Although I suppose you could define them differently. You could define the women's movement, I think people have used it differently having the women's movement be more strictly rights oriented and the feminist movement being more culturally oriented. But I use them interchangeably. And as a feminist, I think my definition of feminist is someone who sees the world through the perspective of women and gender, and understands issues in terms of how it affects women. And it is a champion for women, for empowerment of women.
SM (01:37:16):
So men can be called feminists.
MT (01:37:24):
Oh, yeah. Although, probably would have a different perspective than women who were coming at it from their own experience. But yes, I think so.
SM (01:37:33):
So Frederick Douglass was really a feminist and...
MT (01:37:35):
And Ron [inaudible] was certainly a feminist. Yes. Yeah.
SM (01:37:45):
What happened to that era when all activist groups were seen with each other? I think we already talked about this.
MT (01:37:50):
I think coalitions were hard to maintain, once organizations became established and interested in their own successes and longevity, I think coalitions became more difficult.
SM (01:38:12):
Would not you think though, the war in Afghanistan and certainly in Iraq, that you would see in Washington? There has been protests, but I have been to one, and I had not seen the signs. I would go by the signs and I also go with the people that are speaking. But to see more anti-war people from feminist groups, certainly the anti-war groups, the African American groups, Native American, Chicano, you name it, Asian groups all together against war. I would think...
MT (01:38:52):
You would think you would see this in droves.
SM (01:38:53):
I think when you... Yeah, I do not see it.
MT (01:38:56):
Well, I think that there is... Well, there is definitely a conflict within feminism in terms of Afghanistan because there is Code Pink and people like Jodie Evans who see no advantage to bad intervention and the [inaudible] majority, Ellie Sniel, people like that would support US actions that would help women in Afghanistan and there are those too. Jodie would argue that it is not really helping in the long run, these are not issues that can be advanced with an occupation force. And Ellie, I think would argue that intervention and empowerment of women in Afghanistan was enormously important. And I do not know where I would come down. I think they are both... But it is interesting that Jodie is...
SM (01:40:05):
Jodie who?
MT (01:40:06):
Jodie Evans, her name is, and she is a co-founder of a group called, you should look at it up, at least find it on the web, Code Pink. Code Pink goes and disrupts congressional hearings and everything like that. There is an absolute out of the (19)60s in your face demonstrating group. And Jodie happens to be the board president at the moment of the Women's Media Center. So she works very closely with Gloria, Gloria and Robin and Jane Fonda were founders of the Women's Media Center. So they all work closely together, but they have these different perspectives.
SM (01:40:50):
Yeah. Jodie.
MT (01:40:55):
Jodie Evans. Yeah.
SM (01:40:56):
I think she might be a good interview too.
MT (01:40:58):
She would be and she is in California most of the time, although she travels around.
SM (01:41:08):
I contacted Jane Fonda, but I contacted her a long...
MT (01:41:10):
Yeah, I think Jane probably would not have time.
SM (01:41:12):
She was with CNN and she was married to Ted Turner.
MT (01:41:15):
Ted Turner. Well, she is not married to Ted anymore.
SM (01:41:17):
Yeah. But she just said she was too busy.
MT (01:41:22):
Well, I think Gloria is involved in her own oral history work at Smith. So I think she probably would have the same reaction. But she is doing all the...
SM (01:41:36):
Yeah.
MT (01:41:40):
I think she made that commitment to do it with Smith.
SM (01:41:42):
Your thoughts on the job that the media has done in covering the movement in the (19)60s and (19)70s, and I am going to make a few comments here. The media, there is a brand-new book I interviewed a person at Regional College in Philadelphia, just written a book on the media and how covered the (19)60s... filled out and just written a book on the media and how it covered the (19)60s, and the sensationalism was all they cared about as opposed... And it is left lasting images that were really not true because-
MT (01:42:13):
Like bra burning.
SM (01:42:14):
Yeah. The image of the media was supposed to always build things up. The-
MT (01:42:21):
I do not know. I do not know. I mean, I do know that it was always a joke, and Bill said someone would come out with a headline, The Women's Movement Is Dead, almost every year since 1973.
SM (01:42:39):
Well, just my question here is your thoughts on the job that the media's done in covering the movement in the (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s in particular, and maybe even beyond. Did they concentrate on the sensational or the unusual, or what was really happening every day? I use the examples here, the bra burning in Atlantic City, what we saw about people being nude at Woodstock, which was really a minority, if you really know-
MT (01:43:03):
Well, and you know that the bra burning never took place.
SM (01:43:05):
Yes. I know that did not take place. There were maybe about 20 people that were new that [inaudible]. It was not very many.
MT (01:43:10):
Yeah. And they were covered in mud. So, what the hell?
SM (01:43:16):
Yeah. The drugs. The drugs at the Summer of Love in San Francisco. Of course, I put in here the song that was very popular at the time in the (19)60s, Love the One You're With, which was an image that free sex no matter what is happening. The communal movement where there were lots of sex. That is kind of the perception that people had. Just your thoughts on what the media has done for the women's movement and for the movers and on the events of that period, were they well upfront? Were they honest, or were they...
MT (01:43:55):
I think there were certainly journalists who were absolutely wonderful. I mean, Eileen Shanahan comes to mind, who was an early... She was a Times reporter who did mostly economic stuff. But then she started covering the women's movement. She for the Times, and then Shabel Shelton for the Washington Times at that point, which was completely different than the Washington Times now, or Washington... the other paper besides those. These women were absolutely wonderful in terms of covering the women's movement. I think that the press, the media was completely essential to the spreading of feminism. The fact that they were there and they were covering these issues was very important. On the other hand, as I said, there is a tendency in the media that said all this or all that. That is why you always had these feminism is dead sign. There was a news forecaster who when Ms. came out, said, "I would give it six months."
SM (01:45:05):
Oh, my God.
MT (01:45:06):
And we got him to come back five years later and do an ad for us. It was Reasoner... Was it, Reasoner?
SM (01:45:09):
Harry Reasoner?
MT (01:45:17):
I think so. Who did an ad for us. It said, "I gave it six months. I was wrong." I mean, he said it so...
SM (01:45:19):
That is an interesting anecdote.
MT (01:45:27):
Yeah. I think I must have it in the...
SM (01:45:28):
Even on ABC, Harry Reasoner.
MT (01:45:28):
I think it was Reasoner. You know-
SM (01:45:33):
He was also 60 Minutes.
MT (01:45:35):
Yeah. But... Oh.
SM (01:45:35):
He did both.
MT (01:45:37):
Maybe. I wonder if it was someone else. Anyway, it is in the Ms. book. You can find it. So, I am up to Mines. Now at the Women's Media Center, a lot of what we are doing is identifying sexism in the media, which is surely easy to find. But mostly that is not the main... I mean, part of it is mainstream media, but part of it is talk radio and the cable stations. There is all these horrendous stories that people will watch out for and send in to the Women's Media Center and then it is spotlighted on the thing.
SM (01:46:22):
You know, it was Eddie Hoffman was very outspoken when he did all these crazy things with the hippies. He says, " You got to do crazy stuff to be able to get the media to cover you." That is the way you do it.
MT (01:46:36):
Yes. I suppose that is true. But the women, there was absolutely coverage. I remember when I was volunteering for the caucus in (19)71, and Liz Carpenter was Press Secretary of Ladybird Johnson and very involved in... She was one of the founders of the caucus. She was so media savvy. This is during the Nixon administration. There was an appointment in the Supreme Court to fill, and I think it was Liz's idea. She said, "We will put out a list of women who are qualified." That was picked up all over the place. It became an issue. It became something that Nixon had to consider. He did not do it then. But then Sandra Day O'Connor came on, not that far, I mean, during the Reagan administration. So, there was a way of... That is before. The media has been now much more dispersed. But there was a way of capturing, if you knew how things worked, and certainly Yappy did.
SM (01:47:46):
Oh, my God.
MT (01:47:48):
And Liz Carpenter did, in a much more mainstream way. I mean, there were-
SM (01:47:52):
[inaudible] dollar bills [inaudible]
MT (01:47:55):
There were ways of using that.
SM (01:47:59):
You keep making reference to the media caucus. What was that, the women's caucus? What was that?
MT (01:48:06):
What? The women's media...
SM (01:48:06):
Yeah. Caucus.
MT (01:48:09):
Oh, no. There is the Women's Media Center, which is what I work for now, which is something that is been founded in the last six years by Robin, Gloria and Jane Fonda. There were the... Oh, the National Women's Political Caucus was what I was referring to before, which Bella, Shirley, Betty Friedan... I am forgetting someone.
SM (01:48:38):
And that started what year?
MT (01:48:39):
(19)71.
SM (01:48:41):
And the basic purpose was?
MT (01:48:43):
Get women appointed and elected to office.
SM (01:48:46):
Very good.
MT (01:48:47):
And it still exists, although it had chapters in every state at one point.
SM (01:48:55):
Mm-hmm. How we doing time-wise there? Is it going to quarter of there?
MT (01:49:00):
It is 20 up.
SM (01:49:01):
20 up? I have to leave in 10 minutes because she is only five miles away. But she is at Park Place. It is not that far.
MT (01:49:09):
It is hard, but... Well, you probably will not run into traffic at this point.
SM (01:49:15):
Well, I back to 9A and just go back that way.
MT (01:49:17):
You can just turn on 96th Street. Is that-
SM (01:49:24):
Yeah, I got my instructions. It is pretty easy once you get back on 9A.
MT (01:49:28):
So, you are going downtown, right?
SM (01:49:28):
Yeah.
MT (01:49:31):
On the West Side Highway, basically.
SM (01:49:33):
Yeah. She is on 34th, and I do not know... She is at Two Park Place.
MT (01:49:38):
Well, Park Place is all the way downtown. But what you will do is just, you can get on the highway right here at 96th Street.
SM (01:49:47):
Yeah. She said there is a place to park right across the street.
MT (01:49:49):
Oh, good.
SM (01:49:57):
I guess... I have got three more pages here. But in your own words, can you define female leadership? How does it differ from male leadership, in your opinion? The third part of this is, do women want to be treated as equals to men by securing the qualities that men have in order to succeed? A lot of people, doctors have said, "Well, if they take on the characteristics of men, they will die as early as men do."
MT (01:50:25):
Or have nothing to offer the world in terms of a different style of being. I would say that, in my experience, women's organizations have are very different. I spent from (19)72 to (19)91... So, what is that? Almost two decades at Ms. It was non-hierarchical in many, many ways, in many frustrating ways for some people, for some things. But it was also empowering because if you wanted to take something on, you took it on. There is a different model of leadership. And it still exists. I can see it in terms of... I just finished doing a lot of interviews for the National Council for Research on Women, which did a conference and now is doing a follow-up report on the concrete ceiling, they call it, that Black women reach at the top of corporations. The women in these corporations talk about a very different style of leadership that women have in the corporations, which it is like the toughest thing you can think of because that is the most structured kind of thing, but a kind of difference, inclusiveness. There are so many different... It is so interesting, the kinds of differences they have identified. Some of them work to women's disadvantage; some to their advantage. That leadership thing, I think, works to advantage. Women are becoming very valuable to corporations that are trying for a global market because they are used to negotiating and in different ways. But also, women do not hook on to mentors in the way that men do. Men are very comfortable using their relationships to advance, and women want relationships with much more trust and sort of much deeper things. It is fascinating. I mean, I think there are lots of gender differences, and I do not think we would want to just emulate men. But I think it is a question. I think when women got into positions of leadership in a situation where men were the norm, that is when things like Queen Bees would emerge because that is how you could function. But I also think if women are at a critical mass, then there is a chance of changing the culture.
SM (01:53:34):
In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? When did it end? What was the watershed moment?
MT (01:53:41):
Well, for me, it was like the mid (19)60s. As I said, it was the Civil Rights Movement before even the anti-war movement was the big important...
SM (01:53:55):
I am running at a time here even on this.
MT (01:53:59):
You can always follow- up with stuff on an email, if you want, too, if there is something you need to fill in.
SM (01:54:02):
I got time for one more question.
MT (01:54:02):
Yeah. [inaudible].
SM (01:54:02):
[inaudible] here. (19)60s, when did it end, in your opinion?
MT (01:54:20):
I do not know. I never sort of had that sense of things ending and beginning, I think, because I was involved with Ms. and I just saw things. But I guess the (19)60s for me and for the women's movement carried on through (19)70s because there were things like the Houston Conference, and I guess you would have to say Reagan. I mean, you would have to say that and the fact that Ted Kennedy's appeal did not make it in terms of... All sorts of things.
SM (01:54:56):
How important role did women play in ending the war in Vietnam, in your opinion?
MT (01:54:56):
I think more important than setting up the... Simone Bella, for instance, organized the whole West Side in terms of peace movement. I think more in setting up the atmosphere where being anti-war was a respectable position. With Women's Strike for Peace, and those were... The whole Mother's Movement Against Strontium-90 and stuff like that that that represented. I think they were very important. But I think that the impetus that ended the war was the draft, and that certainly affected men more than women.
SM (01:55:49):
Let us see here. I guess I will end my last question. Hope we get enough time to do this. Question about due the divisions a tremendous division that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between Black and white, sometimes male and female, gay and straight, certainly the tremendous divisions over the war in Vietnam, those who served those who did not, those who were against the war and for the war, do you think this boomer generation is going to go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healed?
MT (01:56:26):
I do not think-
SM (01:56:29):
Due to the tremendous divisiveness that took place at the time, and do you think this is an issue and it is playing a part in the divisiveness that we are seeing in our society today, the tremendous divisions and the-the culture wars that we are seeing over and over again where we cannot seem to get over the (19)60s?
MT (01:56:54):
Well, I think that the culture wars were manipulated by the right. I think the issues that the right pulled, certainly the women's issues that they pulled to organize around, a lot of that was a gift to the right of issues that it could organize around. I am not sure that those were organically grew on their own. I think they were manipulated. But in terms of larger issues, I think there is a whole different feeling about soldiers that are in Iraq and in Afghanistan than there ever was about soldiers that were in Vietnam to the discredit, I suppose, of the anti-war movement back in the (19)60s, that you did not have a lot of sympathy for the people fighting it, which I think is completely different now. I mean, you clearly have an understanding that whether you are anti-war, whether you are a pacifist or not, that it is not the soldiers that are the problem; it is the policy. I think there is that kind of shift in mentality. I do not think the (19)60s anti-war, kind of anti-government... I mean, there is still mistrust of government, God knows. But I mean, I think that has changed with time.
SM (01:58:19):
So, you do not see healing as a problem within this generation of 70 million due to these tremendous divisions when they were evolving as adults?
MT (01:58:19):
Who? The boomer-
SM (01:58:19):
The boomer generation.
MT (01:58:19):
...kind of generation?
SM (01:58:19):
Yeah, the boomers.
MT (01:58:49):
I do not know. I have lived so much of my life in New York and in one kind of protected, in a way, from a culture that might get mad at me. I go back to the Houston Conference and state meetings that we went to. It was the first time I had ever seen these hordes of right-wing people who did not like me.
SM (01:59:14):
Yeah. I know Dan Scrubs, when he wrote the book To Heal a Nation, the book on the building of the wall, the goal was mostly to heal the veterans and the lost loved ones and all the Vietnam veterans, but hopefully to begin healing the nation from the divisions of that war. I do not know what role the wall has played in the whole nation, whether it has helped the Vietnam community because none of [inaudible] going to totally heal. But is it possible to yield from such divisions that...
MT (01:59:54):
Yeah, I think they become less important. I mean, except as things that have modeled your thinking. But I think it is. Yeah. I think it is. Especially through the... I mean, is it possible for one generation to heal? Maybe not entirely, but certainly through the generations, there is evolution.
SM (02:00:17):
I am about...
MT (02:00:19):
You are past it. I mean now, it is like past tense. But as I said, if you feel like...
[End of Interview]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Mary Thom
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Thom, Mary ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Feminists; Editors; Ms. magazine/Sarah Lazin books; Thom, Mary--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>. She wrote her first book about the history of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>, entitled <em>Inside Ms.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement</em>. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2011-06-27
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.167a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.167b
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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120:26
-
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Dublin Core
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Thompson, 1952-2016
Date of Interview
2010-03-08
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
115:58
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University where he studied journalism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University where he studied journalism.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Weathermen; Native Americans; Marijuana; Spirituality; Civil Rights Movement; Sexism; Women's Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Chicano Movement; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Environmental Movement; Racism; Voting Rights; Women's Suffrage; Healing; Beat Generation; Trust; Kent State; Vietnam Veterans; Anti-war Movement; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Weathermen; Native Americans; Marijuana; Spirituality; Civil Rights Movement; Sexism; Women's Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Chicano Movement; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Environmental Movement; Racism; Voting Rights; Women's Suffrage; Healing; Beat Generation; Trust; Kent State; Vietnam Veterans; Anti-war Movement; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society.</span>
Subject LCSH
Journalists; Photographers; Authors, American--20th century;Gay activists; Gay Students Coalition (San Francisco, Calif.);Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mark Thompson
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016 ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Journalists; Photographers; Authors, American--20th century;Gay activists; Gay Students Coalition (San Francisco, Calif.);Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University, where he studied journalism.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-03-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.168a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.168b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
115:58
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c1398cd6b96e5c333e0aca3ad3ec64be.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Curt Weldon
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
72:42
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
Curt Weldon is a politician who served as a Republican member of the United States House of Representatives. He was vice-chair of the Armed Services Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee, as well as the co-chair of the Duma-Congress Study Group. Weldon received his Bachelor's degree in Russian Studies from the West Chester University of Pennsylvania.
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Kent State; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam Memorial; Civil Rights Movement; Lynden Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Watergate."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Kent State; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam Memorial; Civil Rights Movement; Lyndon Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Watergate.</span>
Subject LCSH
Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Weldon, Curt--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Curtis Weldon
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Weldon, Curt ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Weldon, Curt--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Curt Weldon is a politician who served as a Republican member of the United States House of Representatives. He was vice-chair of the Armed Services Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee, as well as the co-chair of the Duma-Congress Study Group. Weldon received his Bachelor's degree in Russian Studies from the West Chester University of Pennsylvania.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.170a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.170b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
72:42