50 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b53f68f141dc8577affc7f43cfaaebec.pdf 76594d5343de55f067206e48f29d3f18 PDF Text Text Guarneri Harpur String Quarter Season Winter Series 66-67 �Wednesday, January 4, 196 7 8: 15 p.m. College T heater L. v . BEETHOVEN QUART ET in F MAJ OR, Op . 18, No. I Allegro con brio Adagio affettuoso ed appassionato Sc herzo. Allegro mol to A llegro QUART ET in E-FLAT MAJOR, Op. 74 P oca Adagio; Allegr o Adagio Pres to Allegretto con Variazioni intermission QUART ET in C - SHARP MI NOR, Op. 131 Adagio, ma non troppoe mo lto espressivo A RECEPTION honoring the Quartet will be held in the Faculty Lounge adjacent lo the theater following this evening's r ecital . The audience is most cordially invited to attend. �Notes by William B eethoven's Klenz Quartet in F major {published in 1800) was not in fact the first composed of the six quar- tets of Op. 18. However its position is justified and appropriate in that it shows the purport and direction of Beethoven's quartet wr iting from the first. Based on the highl y integrative " essayist" method forged by his teacher, Haydn, it is a work of far g r eater density and specific gravity than its attractive surface alone might l ead one to expect. The organic thematic process - whichresemblesnothingso much as the unity of l iving organisms, especially the trees of Beethoven's bel oved out-of-doo rs - is everywhere operative if not at once apparent. The work has been described as "seeming to have been cast in a single pou r ing,• so gr eat ts its unity. However the truth is that it cost Beethoven much eff ort. The opening, acor n •like theme - which contains the gr eat t r ee - appears i n Beethoven's notebooks first in forms which are unbelievabl y clumsy and ungainly. No fewer than five distinct versions are visible with finally onl y the initial motive (6 notes) showing Itself strong enough to retain its iden111y under the hammer of Beethoven's seU criticism . Its inner premises are detectable in the thematic material of all the movements. Also, while the work was still In manusc ri pt, Beethoven recalled it and substituted (1st movement) an entire new development section, saying " I have only Just learnt how to write quartets properly.• The power and beauty of the Adagio str uck Beethoven's contemporaries who asked what he had been thinking of. Beethoven the Shakespeare. Jove r replied "the tomb scene in Romeo and Juliet.• We can do no be tter . T he Scherzo and Finale r ecove r the youthful "Spring morning• exuberance which illuminates the inner complexities of the first movement and also complete the cycl e of universals which comprise the design - organism in cosmos. Beethoven's tenth quartet, Op. 74, was written in 1809 and published in 1810. Of all the quartets , it perhaps conveys the greatest beauty of sheer sonority. The magical spacing of the parts in the l abryinthine introduction and the arpeggios -bowed and plucked- of t he Allegro (which give the work its nickname, the "Harp") are all disposed in such a way t hat the physical beauty of the sound becomes (as ts not always the case with Beethoven) an unusuall y affective di mension. This is especially true of the Adagio where t he considerabl e use of subdominant harmonies contributes to the �exalted serenity of the movement. The form Is strophica Lied, or aria of three stanzas-each repeat being varied, and, something exceptional, the principal melody (I violin) cast each time an octave lower so that the final verse can make use of the earnest entreaty of the violin's lowest string. The Presto (not actually marked "Scherzo") is built upon the famous "V" motive (•••-)which has already appeared at the coda of the first AJ l egro. The key (C minor) and the motive inevitably recal l s the Fifth Symphony (Op. 67) and the relationship between the "Scherzo" and "Trio" certainly suggests a similar rhythmical juxtaposition in the Scherzo of the Ninth. The theme of the Allegretto con Varizioni is taken from a Symphony (in C) by Haydn. The movement, though genial, is re l atively slight. It should be regarded as an elegant, gracious epilogue added like a program encore, the true force of the plece having expended itself in the preceding Presto-which, be it again noted, Beethoven did not mark "Scherzo." The Quartet in C Sharp Minor from the year 1822 is the fourteenth of Beethoven's quartets. It is in six movements pl ayed without a break. They are 1: Adagio, Fugue, C#; 2: Allegro Vivace, Sonatina, D; 3: Recitative and Andante wit h seven va r1 a11ons, A; 4: Presto, Scherzo, E; 5: Adagio, Lied, G#; 6; Allegro, Sonata, with extended terminal development, C#. The fugue is on an austere subject, granitic and gnomic which inevitably reminds us of Bach's fugue in the same key from the first book of the Well Tempered. It is a philosophical discussion of the thorny subject which somehow manages to clarify and lighten itself, but remains the generating idea of the thematic materials of the entire quartet. The second section is in extreme contrast, a simplified sonata form with only one real subject which flows without hindrance to its natural conclusion. The third section begins with a recitative and proceeds to a theme and variations whose successive emotional states are the assurances needed to balance the disturbance of the initial fugue. The Presto, No. 4, Is a Scherzo of headlong energy and drive, the kind of movement which is the exclusive property of Beethoven. T he Adagio, Lied, is a concentrated expression of sublime cal m and assurance which engenders the confidence to undertake the construction of thefinal,sonata, movement. This is a vast construction which unites the materials of the preceding sections and comments on their underlying unity and ends with the mcandescentdithyrambic transformation of the original proposition. �Sta te University of New York a t Bingham ton H ARPUR COLLEGE The Depart ment of Mus ic prese nts THE GUARNERI STRI NG QUARTET (in residence) Arnold S teinh ardt violin John Dalley violi n R EC I TALS O Michael Tree vio la Dav i d Soye r cello S E A SO N 1 9 66 -6 7 SUM M ER SERI ES W INTER SERI ES SPRING SER IES Sunday, July 10 Sunday, J uly 24 Sunday, November 6 Tuesday, Decembe r 13 Wednesday , January 4 Wednesday , January 11 Sunday, April 2 Sunday, April 30 Sunday, February 12 Saturday, May 6 Sunday, August 7 Sunday , August 14 Sunday, September 11 Sunday, M arc h 12 Saturday, March 18 Sunday , October 9 All pe r formances at 8: 15 p.m. in the Hnrpur College Theater . Lale comer s will be seated af te r the first quartet. Ushe ring courtesy of Alpha P hi Omega and Gamma Si gma Sigma. The fin al Open Rehearsals of the Winter Series will be hel d Tuesday, January 10 at 12 noon and Satu r day, Febr uary 11 at 3:00 p .m. in room 18 3 of the C.A. Building. Admis s i on is fre e . T hei r purpose is to provide the campus and commun i t y an opportunity to observe the Quartet in r ehearsal and t o view and painstaking preparation which is som e of t he detailed given t o each perfo rman ce. Pe r sons may quietl y ente r and l eave the rehearsal area at any time dur i ng the sess i ons. Program design by William Mihalko � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. 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Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 3 sound tape reels Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 36:25 34:01 26:57 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE54698">Winter Series Recital Guarneri Quartet</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Winter Series Recital Guarneri Quartet, January 4, 1967 Recital Tape 1967-1-4 Subject The topic of the resource Concerts Instrumental music Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Works of Beethoven. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Guarneri Quartet Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Beethoven, Ludwig van, 1770-1827 State University of New York at Binghamton. Department of Music Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1967-1-4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Winter Series Recital Guarneri Quartet Recital Tape 1967-1-4.pdf https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d96699ab0ba190f76ffd30adcc2fe4fb.mp3 e8d3af19907218c27e7991f1f71ca306 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1/16/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henry Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Henry attended Harpur College along with Syracuse University, but left to fly in the Airforce. After being stationed in Iceland and South Caroline, Henry earned the rank of First Lieutenant. He currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Victoria. Together, they have two children and five grandchildren."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Henry attended Harpur College along with Syracuse University, but left to fly in the Airforce. After being stationed in Iceland and South Caroline, Henry earned the rank of First Lieutenant. He currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Victoria. Together, they have two children and five grandchildren. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; genocide; Armenia; assimilation; Tashnag; Hunchak; politics; family names; Endicott Johnson; Binghamton; Armenian language; traditions; discrimination; identity; church; dance; Armenian Genocide march; United Nations "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; genocide; Armenia; assimilation; Tashnag; Hunchak; politics; family names; Endicott Johnson; Binghamton; Armenian language; traditions; discrimination; identity; church; dance; Armenian Genocide march; United Nations Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Henry Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 16 January 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:06 JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian; I am interviewing Henry Kachadourian for the Binghamton University Oral History Project. Today is January 16, 2017. Can you please start with some basics, your name birth place, biographical information? So what is your name? Please state your name? 0:25 HK: Henry Kachadourian. 0:28 JK: Who were your parents? 0:30 HK: My parents were Parsegh and Yeghsa Kachadourian. My mother’s maiden name was Arslanian. 0:39 JK: And where are they from? 0:42 HK: They are from the state of Harput which is now part of Turkey. 0:49 JK: And how did they immigrate to the United States? 0:53 HK: Well, it was an unusual situation, my grandfather came here first and was sending money to them back in Armenia to migrate– My mother to migrate here, with her mother and her other brother and sister. My father migrated from France to United States. My mother went to Montreal and at the time when she got here they cut off the immigration quota, she could not come in legally so she smuggled into the country with the help of her brother, my uncle, Charlie Arslanian. My father he took a boat from Toulouse, France to the United States. He was supposed to go on to go the boat, the boat stopped in Boston, Massachusetts and the boat was supposed to go on to Ellis Island but he got off at Boston because his godfather was there in Worcester, Massachusetts. So he got off at Boston and he came to United States to Worcester, to Boston to Worcester, Massachusetts. My mother smuggled from Montreal to Boston with the Montreal-Boston train and, and with the help of her– my uncle, Charlie Arslanian. 2:26 JK: And what was their reasoning for coming to the United States? 2:31 HK: To have a better life. 2:33 JK: Was it during the genocide? 2:35 VK: To escape the genocide. 2:37 HK: Yes, basically the genocide, the Armenian genocide in Turkey. 2:43 JK: Now did they leave– were they effected by the genocide at all, did they any– 2:49 HK: Yes, my mother lost her brother, and her mother and her mother and mother was killed by the Turks and her younger brother was taken by the Turks and brought up as a Turk, she had lost contact with them she had to march through the center of Turkey in genocide when she was transported by the Turks to– she ended up in Beirut, Lebanon and from there, a relative helped her to come to America. 3:28 JK: Okay and was there– you were saying your father, he lived in the mountains as a– your father lived in the mountains– 3:39 HK: My father and his family were sheep herders, they had very little education and my mother who came from the village, where there were schools, my mother was well educated and her family was well educated. My father was a sheep herder but he came to America, he could not even read or write Armenian even. My mother had to teach him how to speak, he knew how to speak Armenian but he could not read and write and my mother had to teach him. 4:15 JK: And what was the story about your father with involvement with the Turkish government and how they were escaping? 4:24 HK: Well, when the genocide started they went after, the first state they went– The Turks went after, interior Turkey so other nationalities or other people in Turkey would not have known there was a massacre going on. They started with the inner Turkey, the first state they went after, they went into was Harput, the reason for that was it was inner Turkey and there was less contact to the outside world. Also it was known for a fact that the Harputsis were real Armenian fighters, I mean they were like some of them were like renegades and the Turks wanted to that bunch first, that group of Armenians first before they got out of hand and the next state they went after was Arapkir, which your grandmothers from and her parents from and that was the second state they went. When they came to get my father they only sent five or six Turkish soldiers at there up there in the mountains. Well that did not cut, they did not work out because my grandfather, my father’s clan were warriors and they took care of those Turks. Before you know it they sent a brigade and captured my father’s clan and other mountaineer people and marched them down to village. When they were marching them down the village, my father and my uncle and another Armenian man dove into the river or lake there and swam for it. The other Armenian man died which I do not know his name, he got wounded, I think my uncle might have got wounded too, and that was how escaped from being slaughtered. My mother she was told to the fields to work, my mother did not listen to anybody, she went to school, went to classes and while in classes she was not supposed to be there she still stayed there. She wanted to be educated and when the slaughter started to take place in the village of Harput, that was the state but the city was named Hoğe. She was called Hoğesis. 7:04 VK: Oh Hoğesis. 7:05 HK: Right. My father was from Astvad [Astvadzadzin], that area was called Astvad in the state of Harput and he was they were Astvadsis. When the slaughter took place where my mother was, they marched all the young people out and got rid of the elderly people, they took my mother’s brother and made him into a Turk, adopt him into a Turk family and mother eventually ended up after the march some place into Beirut, Lebanon and her uncle, her uncle, Minas Kaprelian helped her come to America and that was how she got here. 7:56 JK: Wow, okay so how did your parents meet, did they meet in America or you were saying how– 8:04 VK: Well, my mother smuggled into this country on the Bos– the Montreal-Boston train and she got a job as a salad girl in the Biltmore hotel and plaza in Providence, Rhode Island. [laughs] And from there, another Armenian who had an eye on my mother and mother did not care for him, he went and turned, turned my mother in and her brother. They were working there, another Armenian did, that they were–that her– she was in the country illegally and her brother smuggled her here from Montreal. When my mother was still at work, they picked up her brother, Charles Arslanian. Garabed–the first name in Armenian is Garabed, they had arrested him and they were waiting for my mother. One of the other chamber maid Armenian women that worked at the hotel at Biltmore in Providence warned my mother the police were waiting for her. So she never went back to her room and went strictly to Boston, I mean Worcester, Mass to the first church and the priest there and his wife hid my mother in the first church of Armenian Church in North America. It was a small, like a one room church with a backroom to it and that was where they hid my mother and my father who was looking for a wife heard about my mother and he came to Worcester at first and came to Binghamton because of our cousin Ohanian wanted him to come under– come to Binghamton he had job for him at Endicott-Johnson. On weekends my, Charlie, his friend Chuck [unintelligible] and my father would drive from after work on Friday all the way to Worcester, Mass and that was how my mother met, my father met my mother. After the second trip, he met; going back he brought a wedding– an engagement ring. Well my mother did not care for my father but she liked the ring [laughs] so the priest says wait a minute, if you want this fella’s ring you got to have the fella. [laughs] And that was how they met, my mother, my father brought my mother they got married they came to Binghamton, they got married and then– and for fifteen years, the federal authorities were looking for my mother. She– my mother was on the run, so when World War II started all the– all aliens or non-citizens had to register for World War Interviewer. The minute my mother registered, that was when they caught her and that was the registry took place some place on Charles and Clinton Street in Binghamton, New York and after that my mother was placed on house arrest and we all, my father, my mother and um that was 1940. And my sister, my two brothers we all had to go to a federal court in Syracuse, New York to be deported. 12:21 JK: Oh my gosh, so what happened after that? 12:38 HK: The war broke out and they ̶ my mother, my mother went on to become a citizen. 12:51 JK: That is crazy. 12:54 HK: I did have the picture where she got her citizenship, I do not see it here. Here is my mother’s picture when she became a citizen and it was 1945. 13:19 JK: Wow. 13:21 HK: She went to night school to learn how– my mother learned how to speak English from reading the funnies. She was self-educated, looking at the pictures like Little Orphan Annie, Dick Tracy that was how she got a basic idea how– the understanding of English. Another thing, one thing unique about my mother and father like most Americans that immigrated here, most foreign people they wanted to become Americans back then, it was not like today. They learned the language, they dressed American and father wore a suit and tie, every day after work. 14:08 JK: So they assimilated to the culture of America, they assimilated to the culture– 14:13 HK: Right, they wanted to be Americans and show that they were better than other Americans that were here. 14:20 JK: Now in the community, have they, when they came to Binghamton and lived here did they stay here their whole lives? 14:35 HK: Yeah, they mi– when they, they became, they came to– about 1936, (19)37 they bought their first piece of property and in 1938 and in 1940 they ended up– in 1936 we got evicted out in the street because we could not pay the rent, all our furniture was put out in the street. 14:56 JK: Oh my gosh. 14:57 HK: And we were on the corner of Jarvis and Clinton and from there my mother went to the– Welfare came and helped up and put us back in, payed the rent to landlord. A pharmacist on Clinton Street, near Philadelphia sales, they paid the month’s rent, I think the rent was either five or six dollars a month. [laughs] And my mother went to Binghamton city bank, who held a mortgage on the building [phone rings], held a mortgage on the building, that we were living on the corner of Jarvis and Clinton. Somehow, somewhere my mother got enough money to make a down payment and bought the building for five thousand dollars. 15:53 JK: Wow. 15:54 HK: I was with here, it was a day of rain– it was raining and we walked back all the way back to Jarvis Street. My mother could not believe that she bought the building, she made us walk back in the rain, to verify that we had bought that piece of property and everybody in the neighborhood ridiculed her and joked about her buying the building. They said you do not own it but she did, the bankers told her, ‘you bought the building Alice, the building belongs to you.’ 16:26 JK: That is crazy, that is amazing, wow. So growing up, in Binghamton, did you guys have a lot of Armenian experiences and culture going on here? Was there other Armenians? 16:40 HK: Growing up, there were two factions of Armenians, there were the Tashnag party and the Hunchak party and because we were very poor, we associated with most, even though we went to the church which was controlled by the Hunchaks here, that was the Tashnag, I associated because they were poor like we were and they had an Armenian school on Jarvis Street and my friends mother, Mrs. [unintelligible] taught Armenian school there. And that was where it, it helped me to learn Armenian. 17:17 JK: Now did you attend normal high school in like Binghamton or did you go to the Armenian school? 17:23 HK: No, we went to public schools, we were very poor, my brother, the doctor who is a doctor now, and I we were taken out of school because we wore bathing suits, we did not have clothing. We wore bathing suits to– we did not have normal clothing to go to school because we were on welfare. We wore bathing suits to school and we were–they were ready to take– break the family up, take us away from our parents, so we had to like for some reason or another we went through that period and eventually got back on our feet and before we moved into the second floor on Jarvis and Clinton and we were tenants there and got evicted and eventually buying the place, we lived in our cousins. Because my father came to Binghamton because his cousin was here and my cousin got him a job, we lived in the basement. 18:37 JK: Wow. 18:37 HK: And then from the basement, of course we had to pay rent to our cousin [laughs] and we went from the basement up to the attic and the rooms were separated with a clothesline with a blanket. [laughs] 18:57 JK: Wow. 19:00 HK: And uh, the toilet was a potty. [laughs] 19:05 JK: Wow, crazy. 19:07 HK: That was how tough it was and then I grew up, I grew up I had to be tough in that area, anybody who knew the first ward was one of the toughest areas to grow up, it was a very poor area, quite a few people in poverty, there was other people in the same shoes or even worse than we were. 19:35 JK: Wow. So when you were in high school, did you have other Armenian friends? 19:39 HK: Yeah, I had a lot of Armenian friends here but there was not that many families, basically we did not have regular church service, we had church maybe once every oh I would say once every couple of months they would, a priest would come from out of town to how service here in our church, 38 Corbin Avenue which is called Saint Gregory Armenian Church. 20:07 JK: Which is still here today? 20:08 HK: What? 20:08 JK: Which is still here today, right? 20:11 HK: Yeah, from, that church was acquired sometime around nineteen twenty-nine when a group of Armenians here in the area and then it was very difficult in those times. I used to have to, when there was some– when I was a young boy; I used to have to shovel coal into the furnace to keep the church warm during services. And then if I forgot, I would get a bop over my head and get down there and throw more coal in the furnace. 20:43 VK: No wonder you do not have any hair. [laughs] 20:51 HK: And the only way to get furnace was to go outside the church, around the outside, pick up a wooden door, trap door and go down into the basement. 21:04 JK: Oh my gosh! They made you do that [phone rings], that is crazy. 21:11 HK: And also, there was another Armenian boy, that I grew up with, mostly were in the same area and they were my age or younger and there were a few that were older but quite a few went on to be, we have a community here, that was unique to any place else in the United States with the Armenians. We had had, somewhere between fourteen and seventeen young people went on to become M.D.s, doctors and that was unique in the United States, we had the most doctors, self-grown doctors in the United States, in the small community of Binghamton, New York. 21:56 JK: Wow that is crazy, so growing up, oh let me get back to this, did you have any siblings growing up? 22:04 HK: Yes I had one sister and two brothers. 22:09 JK: And what is their age difference to you? 22:13 HK: My sister is three years older than I am and my other brother, the doctor, he is a year and half younger than I am and the other one is four years younger than I am. 22:26 JK: And could you please state their first names, their first names. 22:32 HK: My youngest brother is Arslan, the next youngest is Aristaks and I am the second oldest, Henry, and my Armenian name is Harutun and Louise is the oldest, my sister and her Armenian name is Lalezar. 22:51 JK: So, your names, did they switch when you came to America, your names? 22:58 HK: No I was born, we all– my brothers and sister and I were born here. 23:05 JK: Okay got it, yes, and so growing up did you were your called Harutun or Henry more often? 23:14 HK: Well in church, I was called Harutun, among the old timers, I was called Harutun, in school I was called Henry, I was going to be called, when I was born in May of 1931, I was going to be called, my mother wanted me to be called Harry, because that was her brother that was taken by the Turks and when my mother found out there was already one Harry, Harry Kradjian here, she says nothing to worry I am not going to have two Harrys in town so said one of the RN has asked her why do not you– told her why do not you name him Henry and that was what she did. 24:07 JK: Do you know what Harutun means in Armenian, is it a direct translation? 24:11 HK: It means Harry. 24:12 JK: Do you know what about your brother’s and sister’s what they mean, are they– 24:17 HK: Lalezar I think Lalezar [tulip garden in Turkish and Kurdish,] means flower, Louise in Armenian, it means flower. Aristaks that name was, it is in the Bible, Aristaks my mother got that name and then my younger brother Arslan, he was named after the last name of the–her maiden name Arslanian. That means. Arslan means strong. 24:49 JK: Okay, There is, you know how your name means something, your last name in Armenian means, it was your occupation, like– 25:00 HK: No, I do not know that. 25:02 JK: You did not know that? 25:04 HK: No. 25:04 JK: So like my mom’s side, Kabakian it has to do with squash and pumpkins, so it would make sense that they sold– like had a farm and sold squash and– 25:25 HK: Well, in some– in the old–in pre–in the early times of Armenia– early periods you were named after your father, if your father’s name was Kachadour, you were called Kachadourian, that meant the son of Kachadour– 25:41 JK: Yeah. 25:44 HK: If your mother was Yaksan, your last name was–your mother–you were named Yaksanian, you were named after–but that changed over time. Whatever your grandfather’s name was, your father would take, and then you would take your father’s name but the Scandinavians today I do not–when I was–up until 1915, Norway and Sweden and Iceland or Denmark, they still carry on that tradition. If your mother’s name was Helda, you were called Heldadaughter and your father’s name was– your last name became Heldadaughter if your father’s name was John, you were called Johnson, Johnson, son of Johnson that was how was with the Armenians. 26:38 JK: Yeah, very interesting. Now, did you guys have any– in Binghamton– did you guys have any Armenian get together other than church? Like, picnics or dances? 26:55 HK: Yes, I can relate going back to the picnics going back nineteen thirties, we did not have an automobile and somebody would or some family who had automobiles would have to pick us up and take us to the picnics. Soft drinks– for example, we were so poor; soft drinks were a nickel they sold at the picnic because I was so poor John Kachorian would give me a soft drink and hide it– I would hide it and so other people would not see it and I never forgot that. He worked at Endicott- Johnson and he was sort of like the head of the picnic along with Mr. Manoog Bogdasarian. They were like the church elders and they always had the picnics and our picnics were about up around Port Crane along the river bank. 27:54 JK: That is crazy. I remember hearing that because, another person who did the interviews, he interviewed some other local Armenians of Binghamton and they would say they– 28:07 HK: We did not, because we were poor we were looked at–we were looked down and only the side that did not go to the church, the Tashnags, they associated with us until 1950, until the fellows of my age and they, the generation ahead of me like Dr. Bogdasarian and Dr. Garabedian and Dr. Markarian and Dr. Avedisian, not Dr.–not Avedisian it was Abashians– they had– each one of these families had two or three doctors in the family. They were very hard working people and the one who set the– I would say Dr. Robert Bogdasarian, he went to the University of Michigan and then quite a few followed soon after that. 29:11 JK: That is crazy. 29:12 HK: I did not associate with– and then the Korean War came along and we all went our separate ways and when we came back we got married and had our own families. 29:25 JK: And you stayed in Binghamton? 29:26 HK: No I did not, I met my wife in Philadelphia. 29:30 VK: No, she is saying you stayed in Binghamton. 29:33 HK: Yes, I came– we finally– by way– I came– we came to Binghamton 29:39 JK: So growing up, there were a lot of Armenians in the community, did they– 29:14 HK: There were– I would say growing up in Jarvis Street School, in [inaudible] I would say in my class ahead of me and the class the next two or three classes behind, there were approximately about fifteen to twenty Armenians boys. 30:02 JK: That is a lot. 30:03 HK: And girls. 30:04 VK: For a small community that is quite a lot. 30:06 JK: And did they all migrate different places or did they stay in Binghamton like growing up? 30:11 HK: They all eventually came here for the same reason– their parents came here for work, Endicott- Johnson and the other shoe factory in Endicott– Dunn McCarthy’s– they made– Dunn McCarthy’s were known for making ladies shoes. 30:27 VK: She asked if they stayed in Binghamton. 30:29 JK: Like, now today are most of them– 30:30 HK: Well quite a few stayed except for the fact that some of them went from here to Detroit because the factory–auto industry and some before the World War II and some migrated because there was a lot more Armenians in Detroit at that time. There was about twenty to twenty five thousands Armenians in the– although there were quite a few that migrated to California, there is a large contingent of Armenians that live there and that was why they went there, so the– so their children would become Armenianized and not lose their heritage. 31:05 JK: That is crazy. So you can speak Armenian but– you can speak Armenian but you cannot write it, is that correct? 31:14 HK: I can speak but I cannot write, no. The only member of the family that could write Armenian is my sister, she can read and write. I cannot read Armenian either, I can only speak it. 31:26 JK: And have you ever wanted or have you ever traveled back to Armenia to the villages? 31:31 HK: No, never have everybody in the family except for me and my wife Victoria. 31:38 JK: Would you– if you had the chance would you like to go or no? 31:42 HK: If I was younger age, not being over eighty-five, I would, I just do not– I just do not have the ambition anymore. 31:56 JK: Did they– did your brothers and sisters, did they enjoy themselves in Armenia, did they learn a lot? 32:05 HK: Yes, they had, they said they enjoyed– they went sightseeing, they went and saw historical places and they saw where the first church were, and the church that is the symbol of Armenians. Armenians were not the first Christians in the world, but they were the first country to accept Christianity. And the historical church there in Etchmiadzin is still there today. It has been there for over two thousand years and they, the Muslims for two thousand years tried to convert the Armenians from Christians to Muslims and after two thousand years they left the Armenians alone. They said you would have to kill every one of them otherwise you just leave them alone. 33:01 JK: Yeah, very strong, we were very strong. 33:05 HK: You had to be strong otherwise you would have never survive. Right, honey? 33:10 VK: Yep. 33:12 JK: So um you did attend Armenian language school correct, right? You attended Armenian language school, growing up? 33:23 HK: No, in– lot a part of the (19)30s and early part of (19)40s, there was no school here at per se, one of the elder woman, one from the family– Armenian families who would teach Armenian school, and you had pay like twenty-five cents to go to class. 33:49 JK: Oh wow. 33:49 HK: Twenty-five cents for every class you came, you had to bring a quarter. 33:54 JK: That is crazy. 33:55 VK: Yeah, I never heard of such a thing. 33:57 JK: Wow! 34:00 HK: The reason for that was to pay the taxes on the building in the–it was not associated with the church or anything and it was hard times, it was like when Dr. Bagdasarian sister who helped pay, he was going to University of Michigan and his sister Lilian Bagdasarian later on she married and became Lilian [unintelligible]. She would come to our house after work at five o’clock and give Louise and I piano lessons for fifty cents an hour or fifty cents a half an hour and then– and she did that every week and I did not pick up the piano that well but Louise did very well and she learned how to play the piano and read music. 34:52 JK: Wow. So growing up did you guys have– your family– did you guys have Armenian friends or normal American friends growing up? 35:05 HK: I had both. I could not say one or the other, the Armenian friends were social, we would associate on weekends mostly. 35:17 JK: Okay. 35:18 HK: And we would get together on weekends, primarily either from the church or from the picnics. And then, my American friends were basically from school, and playing sports. 35:38 JK: Okay and did your friends, your American friends, did they know about Armenia like when you said you are Armenian, they did not know. 35:47 HK: My American friends did not have the foggiest idea what Armenian was. They did not have the foggiest idea. 35:56 VK: Our school teachers did not even know what Armenia was. 36:00 JK: Oh my gosh 36:01 HK: Did not have the foggiest idea. 36:05 VK: Did your teachers know Armenian, none of my teachers knew what Armenian was. 36:10 HK: The reason why our Armenian community was never united, we never had church or community center to go to and become part of, a part of the whole community and when we first got our priest to come here and after we had the church, he was getting paid I think twenty dollars a month, five dollars a week. After a year or two, a year he wanted a pay raise of five dollars for the month, we could not pay him so we told him to leave. He wanted a raise from twenty dollars a month to twenty-five. And that was our– and after that we did not have any more priests until, let us see, I would say around 1960s around when Father Arakelian came here, when he got married he came as Deacon from St. Nersess. From that–from 1930 to 1960, in the (19)60s or early (19)70s– later (19)60s we had a visiting priest that would come here like once a month, from the Diocese out of New York City. 37:40 JK: That is very interesting, wow. So did your celebrate a lot of Armenian traditions like Armenian Christmas for example. 37:49 HK: Yeah, we followed the Armenian traditions for Christmas, Easter and all the other religious Armenian holidays and Martyr’s day. 38:04 JK: And did you guys have any– what was it like growing up in your household? Did you guys have all like Armenian food– growing up? 38:19 HK: My mother, my mother did not have a good background because she was a young girl she was only like eight or nine years old when she way taken away by the Turks and she had really no experience-she had knowledge of Armenian food but knowing the recipe and making it, she did not have the expertise like when I used to visit other Armenian families or other churches they would know exactly. Once you would taste their food, you knew you were eating the real thing. My mother had to make up her own recipe. 39:02 JK: Now, was your mom– back in Armenia– was she separated by any of her family members? 39:09 HK: Hm? 39:09 JK: Did she– when she was separated by her family members in Armenia, did they ever reconnect or anything? 39:18 VK: When she was separated from her family, did she ever reconnect with her family? 39:25 HK: No, the ones over there she never reconnected, when she came here her, her father was dead–buried in Edison Cemetery in Lowell, Mass, it is a municipal cemetery but the plot– the people from her village in Harput and the village of Hoğe. They bought a plot for about with fifty or sixty people to be buried there that lived around Lowell, Massachusetts and they could be buried there with no trouble– no cost at all. And that is where my Uncle and my grandfather are buried there, yeah her mother was killed by the Turks and brother was taken by the Turks. 40:24 JK: And was it like– were they killed in Armenia or were they? 40:31 HK: No, they were killed in Armenia. 40:34 JK: So how did your sister get to escape? 40:39 HK: My mother? 40:39 VK: Your father 40:40 JK: Yes. 40:40 VK: Yeah, how did your father escape too? 40:42 HK: My father escaped? He dove into a river and– you are talking about my father now? 40:50 JK: Your mother, how did she- 40:51 HK: My mother? 40:52 JK: How did she escape? 40:53 HK: They had a march. They marched all the Armenians into the– into the– 40:57 JK: The desert? 41:00 HK: In Syria, into the desert to kill them. Somehow my mother– she was a go getter and she knew what was happening, so she ran and hid and I do not know how she survived but she eventually ended up in Beirut, Lebanon where her Aunt– where her cousin was. 41:24 JK: So she found her cousin? That is crazy. She found her cousin? Oh my God. 41:29 HK: Yeah and it was my cousin who gave them money and he gave her so she could immigrate to American and get to her brother. But we– she repaid– we repaid our uncle– our cousins over there in Beirut, when the war started in (19)75 or the banks were closed in Beirut, so we gave them between five and six thousand dollars and they wanted repay it but we said no, you do not have you, this is for helping our mother come to America. 42:11 JK: Wow. Very nice 42:12 HK: Believe me on your grandmother’s side, the Kabakians and the Kachadourians, we got no help, we did not any help from any Armenians for anybody and if we did get help we got help from the Main Street Baptist Church and the Protestants, or the Kachadourians did and we never forgot that, we repaid the Main Street Baptist Church by– then when they had their seventy fifth anniversary we made the short fall for the missionary in Africa. 42:52 JK: Wow that is amazing, so getting back to your life here in Binghamton, did you end up going to college once you left high school? Or did any of your siblings went to college? After graduating from high school did any of your siblings, including yourself, go to high school? 43:14 HK: Yes– a college– my sister went into nursing and became an RN [Registered Nurse], Louise. My brother went to Wayne State and then to Syracuse University became a doctor and I attended Harpur and Syracuse University at two years accredited college and I left school to fly in the Airforce. 43:41 JK: And, how long were you in the Air Force for? 43:44 HK: Approximately four years, I was stationed in Keflavik, Iceland, in air rescue and I was stationed in Charleston, South Carolina and I was in military air transport which is called MATCH and also at McGuire Airforce base. I raised to the rank of First Lieutenant. 44:02 JK: Wow that is amazing. Very cool. So after, after the Airforce you came back to Binghamton and then you met– 44:15 HK: No, I did not meet your grandmother, I was stationed in Keflavik, Iceland and my brother who was at Syracuse University was attending a medical get together– medical association group in Atlantic City, ran into my future wife, Victoria, at the hotel, got her name, my mother was afraid I might an Icelandic or a Scandinavian girl. So she sent me, my brother gave her the address of my– of your grandmother, Victoria– in Philadelphia and my mother got a hold of the address and mailed it to me and up in Keflavik, Iceland after World War II, there was real separate– the Airforce, Airforce and Navy flyers all built together their officers and we used to read each other’s mail. And one of the Navy Airforce Officer’s wrote a letter to my wife because I did not want to write the letter, they wrote the letter. 45:38 VK: I am just finding this out now, I did not even know this. 45:43 HK: –Wrote the letter and your grandmother, Victoria sends a picture of herself and the flyer said– the guys that wrote the letter were reading the mail, he says “Henry if you are not going to Philadelphia to check this out, we going to go to Philadelphia” and that was how I met your mother I mean my wife–your grandmother. 46:05 JK: That is amazing. Oh my gosh. 46:08 HK: So I really, I never met– listen, Jackie that is a true story. 46:20 VK: I never knew that. You know what happened. I was in Atlantic City and he comes knocking on the door and there was a party. So he pops his head in and we are short one girl at our party, this is Art now. So I said to my cousin, I said oh okay we could go and he says “oh no just one”– oh no and so later on when we went downstairs to talk to the girl at the desk for the bus, what time the bus is going to leave um, he pops up Art pops up so he said well can I have your name and address and all this kind of stuff. So I say to myself how is he going to remember, he will never remember because he did not have a pencil or paper so I say sure. And not knowing he had a pretty darn good memory. So he ships the name and address over to him– 47:24 HK: You know this is a true story, I cannot make this stuff up, it is like surreal, you know, how things happened back then and that was how it was and in fact my mother and– or when your grandmother, your grandmother here, how their parents, their parents were put together. In other– you would meet the man and you would meet the family and your grandmother, your great grandmother would walk along with them and in like the movie The Godfather and that was how it was in the old days. There was no going out and going here and going there in a long courtship, it was like one two three and that was it. Am I right honey? 48:17 VK: [Speaks Armenian] My grandmother, I said mom. 48:23 HK: That was a period– the fittest survived. 48:27 VK: Yeah, the fittest. Here was how I was [shows picture]. Grandma and mama on one side, dragging me in to the– 48:42 HK: Vicki, I am talking, I am talking before you. It was not just your grandmother’s family and mine, it was thousands of Armenians just like us, who struggled, came to America wanted to be Americans, not like some of the people who come here today, they wanted to be Americans, they wanted to dress like Americans, they wanted to learn the language, they proved to the people that were living here they were just as good or better. They overcame, it was not just the Armenians it was the Slovak people, it was the Italians, it was the Irish, it was the Jewish people. They struggled and they wanted to become somebody and become something and there were–and they did it, no matter how great the odds were, they did not quit. They did not–the word quit was not in their vocabulary. 49:42 VK: The first priority was becoming American, speaking the language, learning the language, it was. it was not easy, it was not easy. Different culture there, different type of food and everything else. Different religions and they came and built their own– 50:06 HK: And you know what I cannot understand everybody that came here, whether black, white or yellow they were discriminated, the Irish were discriminated, the Italians, the Armenians and this discrimination will never end. You might temporarily, but the problem here is people make a big issue out of being discriminated. Discrimination was going on way before, thousands of years before we were we born. And it will continue on no matter what, you cannot change people. There will always be discrimination to some degree. 50:51 JK: Exactly. That is crazy. So, when you were getting married, when you were looking for a wife, did your mom and father, did they want you to marry Armenian? 51:02 HK: Yes, they wanted me to marry Armenians but then there was a lot of stipulations. 51:11 VK: [whispers] She hated me. 51:11 HK: It was period where we were first– I was first generation, my wife first generation– were first born here and we were going through a period– it became to easier for my daughter and your father to get married later on because, the American tradition, the way you are suppose– the way things are done over here, we had a mix– it had a mixture between the other side and America. And there were, we were trying to pacify our parents and grandparents we were trying to blend it and make the best out of the both worlds. Your father and your aunt and your other aunt’s and other– your mother’s fa–brothers and sisters did not go through that because they were the next generation. But the first generation was a little difficult like you just could not go out and marry somebody that was not Armenian, that was looked upon down. 52:22 JK: Wow. So did you want to marry someone Armenian? 52:27 HK: Hm? 52:27 JK: Did you want to marry someone Armenian? 52:28 HK: Oh yes, I did because you see not marrying an Armenian, not marrying an Armenian you lose– you do not have– you do not understand the tradition and the hardship that both the families went through, you lose the language and you lose the language you lose the church and if you lose the church you lose your heritage as far as an Armenians concerned. The church and the heritage and the language as Armenian go hand in hand without that being blend all together, your future generation is going to be watered down and the grand children or the great grandchildren and the great, great grandchildren will not even know where they came from. 53:20 JK: Yeah. Exactly. When you– older– later on you had two children and did you want them to marry Armenians. Did you put pressure on them to– 53:29 HK: I would like to– 53:30 VK: No we did not put pressure on them but they knew– 53:22 HK: I would like that but the problem here is that there is different– there is different Armenians. See when my parents and your– my wife’s parents came here that was another group– that was another generation– that was a generation of Armenians that was really called the Armenians. They were true, true Armenians right from the heart, it came from the heart. The Armenians that come over here hand been Sovietized or Russianized or they been Muslimized. Not that their Muslims, not that their Russians but they have been influenced and they leave a bad taste with other Armenians and also with Americans that are live here. 53:34 VK: Sometimes they think that this country owes them when they come here, in other words, Harutun do not you get that? 54:46 HK: Yeah, see when the Armenians that came like your, your Kabakian side, for example, the churches were here, the schools were here, they went out– in other words during the Depression it was tough, the Armenians did not have the money, they did not have– did not know the language, did not know the ins and outs of government how things work over here and they struggled they built these churches and schools. The ones that came after World War II, hey this is it, it was not that way, it was hard work and they struggled the ones that were here. 55:33 JK: Yeah, they went through a lot. 55:35 HK: You understand what I am saying. 55:37 JK: Yeah, of course. 55:38 HK: I am not trying to put a knock on anybody but that is the way it was. That is how I see it and the ones that came after World War II, everything was always already in place for them. 55:50 JK: They did not have to work for it. 55:51 HK: They did not have to struggle, besides, there were no jobs during the depression, where were they going to get the money? You know how much I was bringing? I did not even want to go to church sometimes because I could only put a nickel in the plate. I wanted my mother and father to give me at least a quarter, they did not have a quarter to give me. 56:12 VK: But we were discriminated against too. 56:20 HK: You mean we were discriminated because we did not have any money? 56:23 VK: No, no, no. They did not know– my teacher did not know if we had money. 56:28 HK: That was a given fact, they did not know what Armenians were, they did not have an understanding of Armenians and a lot of people thought Armenians were like Arabs, they were nomads. That is a fact, in the school books and the library when I was– and I looked up Armenians and they had Armenians are Nomads, they were wanderers. 56:50 VK: They were wanderers because they wandered away from the genocide. Unbelievable, unbelievable. Yeah I heard they were Nomads. 57:03 HK: What? 57:04 VK: Nomads 57:05 HK: Right that is what I read, I remember this where I saw that, it was in the library at Daniel S. Dickinson the basement library. 57:18 JK: That is crazy. So did– how would you consider yourself, like what would define yourself as? Being– 57:24 HK: A true American Armenian, American first without America I was– I was– my family, my wife’s family and all the others Armenians that came here after the slaughter, after World War I, would not be nothing without America. I consider myself, an American first and Armenian second. 57:51 JK: What about you? 57:52 VK: I agree– 57:53 JK: Same thing– 57:54 HK: When I say American first, I would give my life for this country. 57:59 VK: Well you were flying during the war, thank goodness you came out of it. Jeepers! 58:11 HK: You find a person’s true colors and when I was flying in the Airforce, the really the true Americans were from the mid-west or from the south-west. They were so patriotic or from the south, the flyers you said anything derogatory about America, there was no such thing as burning an American flag. Not the stuff that goes on in New York City and California. It was unheard of back then, if you did that while I was in the service you would have got murdered, you would have got clobbered. 58:53 JK: Okay were he– 58:54 HK: I do not consider– I do not consider those people–some of those people in California and some in New York City as Americans. It is only giving lip service. 59:08 JK: So, when– now you have two children now right? 59:13 VK: Yeah, that is all we have [laughter] and grandchildren, five. [laughter] 59:21 JK: Oh I am sure one of them is amazing. [laughter] 59:23 VK: Oh, I am sure that she thinks she is. [laughter] 59:33 HK: You know, I saw when I was in the Service Jackie, I saw a lot of good Americans that died during the Korean War; a lot of good Americans. They gave their– they gave their lives up for this country and the garbage that goes on today with the flag– burning the flag and taken sports at taking a knee! [laughter] 1:00:00 JK: So, your two children can you name how– can you say their names and how old they are? 1:00:08 HK: I have a son, his name is Mark Kachadourian. He is fifty-eight and I have a daughter– 1:00:20 VK: What about their middle names? 1:00:21 HK: Well, Mark Henry. Mark Henry Kachadourian and let us see he is fifty-six–fifty-eight, yeah he is fifty-eight years old. And Corey is– Corey Victoria Kachadourian, my daughter she is fifty-nine. One was born in August one was born in September. 1:00:51 JK: Crazy! 1:00:52 HK: How old did you think your father was? 1:00:54 JK: I do not know [laughs], fifty-seven. 1:00:57 HK: Your father was born in fifty-nine. 1:01:00 JK: Yeah. Crazy! I was thinking fifty-six or fifty-seven. 1:01:07 VK: He is fifty-eight! 1:01:08 JK: Crazy! 1:01:09 HK: Huh? 1:01:10 JK: Crazy! How fast time goes by? 1:01:14 VK: Yeah, in the old days that was old, but now that is middle age, 1:01:19 HK: Well the problem– your mother, your grandmother and I– we were married in fifty-seven, Corey was born in fifty-eight and your father was born in fifty-nine. 1:01:20 VK: One right after the other, yeah. 1:01:37 JK: Wow! Okay, so did you want them– did you– growing up– did they grow up learn Armenian or go to Armenian school or church? 1:01:43 HK: There was no– we did not have regular Armenian Church. We only had a visiting priest that came once every month or once every two months and we did have Armenian school but it was very difficult since we were a small community and the only time they would meet would be on weekends. It was not like it was a large Armenian community where there would be regular functions and dances or social get together. We did not have any of that in this community because we were a small community and at the present time there would roughly only be between thirty or thirty-five–or thirty or thirty-five Armenian families in the area left. 1:02:28 JK: Okay. And most of them moved away to get more– 1:02:31 HK: The problem there they– most of them left the area because the fact that we lost our industry here and the politicians never understood what made this community. It was– IBM and Endicott-Johnson and the other industries came here because we had cheap energy. And that cheap energy came from the coal mines around Scranton and Wilkes Barre, it was less than a half an hour, an hour away. We had the cheapest energy in the world and without indus– without cheap energy, you do not have industry. 1:03:09 JK: Yeah. So did you guys–did they ever attend Armenian dances once in a while? 1:03:15 HK: No there were no Armenian dances here. [ indistinct] 1:03:21 HK: It was not– the Armenian dances did not take place until about– let us see– I would say– (19)50– go ahead– around the early part of (19)60s from when I was growing up, up until even when your father and your aunt were growing up in the area. From 1957 by fifteen– there was nothing we could– for fifteen year– in the Armenian functions– they did not– and fifty –fifteen or twenty years. 1:03:52 JK: Wow. 1:03:53 VK: Did not it go out of town 1:03:55 HK: What? 1:03:55 VK: When it was something going on in Atlantic City– 1:03:59 HK: Out of town but not here. Not locally. 1:04:01 JK: Did they go out of town– where would they go out of town? 1:04:05 HK: Basically, they went out of town to Armenian functions we went to Philadelphia or Atlantic City. 1:04:10 JK: And did you go ever so often–every year? Did you go every year? 1:04:15 HK: We tried to, I mean mostly in the summer months. 1:04:19 JK: Now, do they both know how to speak Armenian? 1:04:24 VK: Do they speak Armenian? 1:04:26 HK: Who is they? 1:04:27 VK: Corey and Mark. 1:04:28 HK: No. 1:04:30 VK: They understand– 1:04:31 HK: They understand– when they were– spent the summer home– at the summer house down in Toms River, New Jersey and they grew up there in the summer, they learned from their grand folks but they–they do have an understanding if someone is speaking Armenian they understand what they are saying. 1:04:49 JK: My dad said he knows how to– because sometimes he says something to my mom in Armenian. 1:04:56 HK: Yeah. 1:04:56 VK: Yeah he probably knows more than he is letting on. You know why– 1:05:04 HK: I wanted, I wanted very much to send you to Montreal and pay to go to Armenian school there with the Kabakians and the Liberians– they would have taught you Armenian but my son did not want you to leave the area. 1:05:22 JK: No I wish I did that that would have been amazing. 1:05:25 HK: It would have been a great summer– and I would have paid for it, it would have been a great summer and you would have become true Armenians. Not by just by name but you would understand the customs and the language. 1:05:39 JK: Yeah. There is so much more of an Armenian community in Montreal. 1:05:43 HK: Oh yeah. I am very–, I am– when I go to Montreal I am impressed. There– when you say Armenian community that is the true sense of the word up there. 1:05:54 JK: They even had a march on April 24th for the Armenian genocide to– 1:06:00 HK: Well your, your father, your grandparents, your– marched in the first march or– in United Nations and your aunt marched the first march of the genocide in the United Nations. I will never forget it. 1:06:19 JK: Really? 1:06:19 HK: It was a cold– 1:06:21 VK: New York City. 1:06:21 HK: Cold April day in New York City and the–the United Nations would not allow us to mark on–march on their side of the, the plaza– We had to cross the street and march across the street and we could not march on the grounds–the United Nations’ grounds. 1:06:42 JK: Wow 1:06:42 HK: And they– we and there– at that time there– I would say there was somewhere between fifty to seventy-five Armenians with signs marching and we did not have a sign, we marched along with them. Remember that, honey? Just to show our support. 1:06:58 JK: That is wonderful. 1:06:59 HK: We made that trip from Stanford, Connecticut on that cold, cold wintery day in, in April– in the springtime and wind was blowing off the ro– east river or the Hudson River even. It was just coming, you know, crisscross in Manhattan it was very dip– it was very hard times but the– it– we just made a show for– to show the world that the Armenians did not forget. 1:07:30 JK: Yeah. Do you think America will ever accept the Armenian genocide as an actual genocide? 1:07:37 VK: At this point, I do not think so. 1:07:41 HK: Hmm? 1:07:41 VK: Do you think America will ever accept the fact that the genocide existed? 1:07:53 HK: See I have– the two sides– the– to the story just like, like in Israel, America has a foreign policy and it has what has to be– and it protects the rights of people. It promotes freedom around the world, but the– they has to balance the one side with the other. It is a two sided– and it is very difficult to say–well– at this point I think they could– they should recognize it but if they– I am a firm believer if they recognize the genocide, this country, it will no longer be in place like it used to. The gov– the Turks and the United States government is doing the Armenians a favor by not recognize it because it is out on the forefront every year. 1:08:53 VK: That is right. It is– 1:08:54 HK: It is out on the forefront. In other words, we will go out there and make them have the risk of a government standby and say look these people were slaughtered and why do not you recognize it? But–and if, if they do recognize it, future generations will not go into the march, will not c– they will commemorate the date, but not like it is now. That is my personal feel. 1:09:23 JK: I agree with that. That is true. 1:09:25 VK: I do not think they are ever going to make any public announcement that this happened. 1:09:33 HK: See the trouble with this is, the presidents that want to get elected, like George Bush, Bill Clinton, Obama. They all promised the Armenians they would recognize the genocide and when they got in the office, what happened? 1:09:53 VK: They forgot all about it. [laughs] 1:09:57 HK: Obama’s speech before the parliament in Turkey says allege or so called, I will never forget the speech he made in Istan–in Ankara, Turkey. The allege massacre. Allege!! Why you– A man cannot stand behind his word. Obama broke his word and so did Bush and so did Bill Clinton. They all broke their word. 1:10:29 JK: They did. 1:10:30 HK: If a man’s word is no good, the man is no good. 1:10:33 JK: They did us a favor, it will never– 1:10:37 HK: Allege! I will never forget what the– Obama said it in front of the parliament, the speech was– you–there–h ad it on the news. The allege massacre! 1:10:50 JK: Terrible. 1:10:51 HK: How about I, I said the allege slavery in America? 1:10:59 VK: [laughs] That is a good one! [laughs] 1:11:03 JK: Crazy. [laughs] 1:11:04 HK: How would Obama like that? Massacre. Really?! The allege massacre? 1:11:11 VK: What about the allege slavery of the blacks and– Pause in recording 1:11:15 JK: Is there anything you want to add about the Armenians or your history or anything? 1:11:22 HK: Yes. The only thing I could say is in my wife and I– in our lifetime– our parents were slaughtered in World War– our grandparents and our parents and their families were slaughtered in World War I and my wife and I, in our lifetime, we have seen nothing but war. We have seen World War I, we have seen the Spanish Civil War in Spain in the thirties. Then we saw World War II, then we saw Korea and then we saw Vietnam and then we saw the war in Iraq and then we saw the war in Afghanistan and now the war in Iraq and the problems in the Middle East. Only thing I only wish for– the remainder of my life there are no wars, hopefully, and from– not only for myself but for future generations over my children and my grandchildren and great grandchildren. That was how I will end it. You want to add anything to that Vicky? 1:12:39 VK: No you said it– 1:12:40 HK: And I hope, I hope, that we can live in peace for at least a period of twenty-five to fifty years. 1:12:40 JK: Wow. Nice. Okay thank you so much. 1:12:53 HK: Hum? 1:12:53 JK: Thank you. 1:12:54 HK: How did I do? 1:12:56 JK: Pretty good. 1:12:57 HK: Oh I do not think so. 1:12:58 VK: Did you read what Mark wrote? 1:13:00 HK: Yeah 1:13:00 VK: I mean he is–– (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Henry Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f55ad5a375fdf5291728a532407fa941.mp3 d0cf314e49ad9727e3d3e52cd427d34f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 9/29/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Aristaks Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Aristaks Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 September 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:08 JK: This is Jacqueline Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s Special Collections library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is September 29, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:21 AK: Aristaks Kachadourian. 0:24 JK: And where were you born? 0:27 AK: Johnson City, New York. 0:30 JK: And– 0:31 AK: –December 12, 1932. 0:34 JK: And who were your parents? 0:39 AK: Um, Alice and Parsec Kachadourian. 0:45 JK: And where were they born? 0:50 AK: In Harput, Turkey. My father was born in the s–village of Aşvan my mother was born in the village of ̶ 1:06 JK: And, um, why did they imi– did– they immigrated to the United States, correct? 1:14 AK: Not directly. My father came by way of Ellis Island and my mother came by way of Canada. 1:25 JK: And– 1:29 AK: –Um and she came to the United States, um, from Canada, with her brother. 1:42 JK: And did they meet in the villages in Harper or they met? 1:49 AK: No, no. They met in Massachusetts. [indistinct] Right. Now my mother and father met in Massachusetts, in Providence, Rhode Island. 2:06 JK: Okay. And so what was the reasoning for emigrating to–what was their reasoning to come to the United States? 2:14 AK: I think primarily to, um, avoid the massacres that were occurring in, um, central Turkey. 2:31 JK: Now, were they directly associated with the massacres? Did it happen during their time– 2:36 AK: –No, but they had heard about–my father essentially, um, avoided being rounded up by the Turks in the village and he was able to escape, um, from the village by, uh, jumping into the water and swimming for his freedom. My mother, um, came by way of, um, Turkey to Lebanon where she met her uncle and she was able to save up enough money and afford passage to Marseilles, France and from Marseilles she went to Canada. 3:37 JK: And do you remember what time frame or year? 3:39 AK: Time frame was somewhere around 1927, 1927. 3:47 JK: Okay and, um, when your father was escaping the Turkish shoulder– soldiers, um, did they leave behind any family, uh, to escape, or–? Do you know of any stories? 4:06 AK: I really do not know the other circumstances by which he came over but the thing which attracted him to Binghamton, New York. He was staying in Worcester, Massachusetts with relatives. And from there he, um, came to visit his cousin in Binghamton and decided to stay after he was able to obtain a job working at the Endicot, Endicott Johnson shoe Corporation. That was what made him emigrate to the Binghamton area. 4:53 JK: And, um, while they, while your parents lived in the villages in Turkey, did they speak, what languages did they speak? 5:00 AK: They spoke Turkish and Armenian. 5:02 JK: Okay. And did that pass along to you and your siblings? 5:06 AK: Not the Turkish, although my Armenian is mixed with a lot of Turkish words. Um, I did not know the difference between the two. Neither did my brothers and sisters. Some words the– my parents would use, uh, that were Turkish, and I thought they were Armenian, but how was I to differentiate between the two? 5:35 JK: Um, do you recall any stories that your parents told about living in the villages? 5:40 AK: Oh, yeah, my mother, uh, the last she saw of her mother was, uh, when she was a child, she remembers being, uh, placed in a Protestant orphanage home and the last she saw of her mother was running down the street I assumed from the Turk– Turkish, uh, soldiers or police. And that was the last time she saw her mother. Her mother never came back to the orphanage to pick her up. She was about eleven, twelve years old. 6:21 JK: So, she was all by herself? 6:23 AK: She was by herself. 6:25 JK: Did she have any brothers or sisters? 6:29 AK: No. The only brother she had was the one that was being carried, uh, by her mother while she was running from the Turkish authorities. Her brother somehow came to the United States. She had one brother that I know that was living in, um, in Lowell, Massachusetts, and he, she had a father that had emigrated to the United States in nineteen ten. And he died of tuberculosis in the United States. Uh, in Lowell, Massachusetts. I know that he is buried there with my uncle, my mother's brother who came to Canada. I do not know if he was in contact with his father, who passed away with tuberculosis. But that is the only thing that I can remember. My uncle had a job. I think it was in the shoe factories in Lowell, Massachusetts. And he learned of my mother coming from Marcy, France to, um, Canada and he went to Canada and brought her. I do not know whether it was in Toronto that he went and got her or Montreal, I am not sure. I think it was Toronto. That, and this was about 1926, 1927. 8:21 JK: And so her brother came to America first, before she did? 8:24 AK: Yes, her father came first. Then her brother came here. The father had come here first to earn enough money to bring his family from Turkey to the United States. But she got the money that he sent to her to, um, come to the United States, but instead she used the money to buy a farm [laughs] and that is about all I know about it. 8:58 JK: And the farm was located in, uh, Turkey or America? 9:01 AK: No, that was, what was that? 9:06 JK: Was the farm located where? In Turkey or–? 9:10 AK: No, she did not bother to buy the farm. This was in the village of ̶ 9:14 JK: Okay. 9:15 AK: In Turkey. 9:15 JK: Okay. 9:16 AK: That she was supposed to use the money. 9:19 JK: And so her father left before the genocide occurred 9:23 AK: Oh yes, he came about–he came about 1910. There was another genocide back in 1909 that, in fact those three genocides one in 1896, one 1909, in fact, the one in 1996, I mean 1896 was when my wife Adrian, her father came over as a child at three at the age of three around 1896. That was the first genocide. The second genocide was in 8– 1909. And that was when, uh, my mother's father emigrated to the United States to earn money to pay for bringing his family over. But her mother never bought the, bought the–uh, used the money to come to the United States, she bought a farm instead. 10:32 JK: And the two other gen–the two other genocides that–genocides that occurred beforehand, um, your fa ̶ your mother survived both of them? 10:41 AK: No, my mother, my mother survived the 1896 one. Uh, she was old, she was not born in when the genocide of 1909. But that was when her father came to the United States. In (19)– I am sorry 1909, he came to the United States. She did not come until much later around 1915 or 1916. 11:13 JK: And you remember what year she, do you remember what year she was born in? 11:18 AK: She was born in 19 ̶ give me a second– to the United States around 1915, 1916. She was born in 1909, 1904. 11:46 JK: Okay. 11:48 AK: Gee I should have to go look at the tombstone. 11:53 JK: And, um, for the past two genocides 9– 1896 and 1909, that was with Armenia and Turkey– and Turkey? 12:02 AK: Yes, that was between the Armenians and the Turks. 12:07 JK: Okay. And, um, it was, I am assuming it was with the villages in Turkey? 12:12 AK: –Yeah. 12:13 JK: –That they started in. 12:14 AK: Yeah. Yeah. It was in the–the state or province of ̶ and no, in, um, in Harput, Harput. Harput was the name of the province. 12:37 JK: Okay. And, um, was there mass killings in– during those massacres or–? 12:43 AK: There probably was, but that was much later. 12:48 JK: Okay. And, and for your father, did you experience any of these, uh, other two genoc– or other two massacres? 12:55 AK: He was a young boy at the time he was about twelve, thirteen years old. He was born around 1900. 13:06 JK: Okay. 13:06 AK: So he would have been about (19)14, (19)15 fifteen when that took place. 13:11 JK: And– 13:12 AK: –Brought him to Binghamton, of course, so his– he was able to get a job here at the Endicott Johnson shoe factory. And that was what– he was living with my cousin. 13:26 JK: And, uh, do you recall any stories about him living in Harput? Do you recall any sto– do you remember him telling you stories– 13:34 AK: –Any stories at Harput? Not really. I have forgotten a lot of them I would have to think about it. Some of the time when I can rehash some of these stories. 13:49 JK: Of course. Um, do you remember the escape, how he escaped? 13:58 AK: Here, the only– he, um, ran from the village with his older brother, but he remembers the story that his brother was captured. And he survived the, the, um, arrests that were going on in the village, and he remembers that his brother escaped by jumping in the river and he was wounded with a shot in the side of his head. But he was able to swim in the river and get away, escape. His, uh, brother escaped to France and remained there and yeah he never came to the United States. But he has a–his name was Minas Kachadourian and his family settled in Marcy, France and ultimately in Leone, Leone, Leone, um, France. 15:17 JK: And they leave any other family members back in, uh, the village of Harput or–? 15:23 AK: The only one I know about was my father's brother in– that, uh, escaped with him to France. My bir–my father ultimately wanted to come to the United States, his brother stayed in France. 15:45 JK: Now growing up, did your parents talk about what occurred in Turkey? 15:51 AK: They did not talk very much about the–the massacres only that they would mention them but they would not relay any definite stories because they were such sad stories that they tried to suppress the thoughts of these episodes. 16:18 JK: Okay, going back to the life in Binghamton, um, do you have any siblings growing up? 16:27 AK: Yes, I have, uh, four siblings. My sister Louise, um, Henry, Arslan, Garabed. 16:46 JK: And, um, growing up did, uh, your parents speak Armenian to you in the household? 16:54 AK: They spoke Armenian and bro– broken English. What–what they learned by their communication with people in the community, but mostly they spoke Armenian to us. 17:10 JK: And, uh, when–when they came to the United States, your parents, did–they did not know English, I assume, right? 17:16 AK: No, they did not have any English at all. They learned gradually by their contact with the American population. 17:26 JK: And from your stance, they want to keep the Armenian culture and your family strong? 17:34 AK: Oh, yes. We have an Armenian Church, which was acquired in 1927. But let us see my parents were married in 1927. They met in maybe 1925, 1926. And, uh, my father, when visiting– the way they had met was my father, when, uh, visiting to Massachusetts, I guess he was looking to marry an Armenian woman there. But he met my mother instead. And I think this way the story was but the Armenian woman did not want to marry, marry my father. He wanted, so that he had purchased a ring to get engaged with and, and he let us see. And she did not want him so he went looking for another woman and met my mother and she essentially, uh, wanted to get married and ended up meeting my father and he brought her back to Binghamton and got married in Binghamton at the Trinity Memorial Church in Binghamton which is located on the corner of Main and Oak Street. 19:22 JK: And the reasoning that they stayed in Binghamton is because your father had a job– 19:28 AK: Had a job here, and they were living on Colfax Avenue with my, uh, cousin. And they were living on the third floor of my cousin's home. 19:45 JK: And do you recall in Lowell, Massachusetts, did they have a big Armenian community from the– 19:51 AK: In Massachusetts. Oh, yes, there is a large Armenian community. The first Armenian Church in the United States is located in Worcester, Massachusetts. And then subsequently parishes were formed or built, uh, in Providence Boston, Worcester. The largest community at the time, I think was in Worcester, Massachusetts. But then they began to spread all over the northeastern United States. 20:29 JK: And in Binghamton, New York, where you grew up in, um, was there a large Armenian community? No it was small but it, it grew. The community gradually increased with the advent of Armenians being able to work in the shoe corporations in Binghamton. There were many shoe, uh, factories, uh, Endicott Johnson being the largest on the west side of Binghamton. Uh, Dunn McCarthy's, uh, on the south side was Gotham shoe factories so that Armenians on the south side began to live on the south side because they worked at the shoe factory on the west side of Binghamton, and the second and third wards and fourth wards and Binghamton. Uh, most of the Armenians work that the Dunn McCarthy shoe factory. 21:35 JK: Okay. And, um, from this area, did you have a– so were the Armenians living close by from one another? 21:44 AK: Oh yes, they all lived, all the Armenians lives within walking distance from each other. The– there was a large group of Armenians who lived in the first ward, second ward and third ward. And most of them went to the Protestant churches here because there was no Armenian Church in, at that time and the Armenian Church was not, uh, purchased–it was purchased from the Ross Memorial Church, Ross Memorial, um, Episcopal Church on the south side. My Armenians on the south side went to that church. On the west side, some of them went to the congregation church on the corner of, um, Main and Front Street. But, and also a large number on the, uh, west side went to the Main Street Baptist Church on the corner of Main and Chestnut Street. This is where the churches are still located. 23:00 JK: And, um, so you are–and when you were growing up as a child, you went to the Armenian Church? 23:08 AK: Well– 23:09 JK: –When it was– 23:09 AK: –Whenever they had service, whenever they could get a priest to visit the Armenian Church, um, which was about four or five times a year was when the, uh, parish council were able to get a priest to come up and perform service and baptize some of the children. 23:33 JK: So you guys did not have priests for regular service? 23:37 AK: We did not have a regular service, but we had a priest sent to us by the diocese. In fact, we, my brother and I, Arslan and I, um, were not baptized until we were about eleven, twelve years old 23:57 JK: Oh okay. And, um, so growing up, did you attend church every time there was a service? 24:05 AK: When, whatever there was a service here, yes. 24:08 JK: And– 24:09 AK: My cous– I remember my cousin, uh, picking us up and driving us to the church, because we did not have a car at the time. 24:21 JK: And, um, for the services, they were once every few months, or–? 24:28 AK: I would say about once every three, three–four months was when we had sort of church service. Transportation was difficult at that time. We used to see the priests coming, I believe, from New York City. And at that time, it took about six to seven hours, by car or by, uh, train, however they came. 24:58 JK: And once the church was built, um, do you think the Armenian community grew stronger in Binghamton? 25:06 AK: Yes, the community became closer together because that was the one, one and only time every two to three or four months, that they would get together and have a dinner after a church service so that they could prolong the time of contact together. But they became stronger as the children also grew in the area and attended the schools. The number of children, uh, multiplied tremendously. 25:44 JK: And, um, going to school, did you have Armenian friends or normal American– 25:52 AK: We would develop a friendship. We would know each other, uh, ultimately, by going to school and knowing them in school as well as seeing them, you know, every three or four months. 26:11 JK: Now, did you guys have any other events within the Armenian community? 26:19 AK: No, just, um, after church dinners. We used to have a picnic, an annual picnic, where everybody got together, uh, whenever there was a wedding or, or a social or baptism, something like that, they would bring the community together in these social functions. 26:43 JK: Do you think most of the families, uh, during that time have left Binghamton or stayed? 26:51 AK: No, they, they, uh, decided to stay here because work was, uh, here. That is the reason why they stayed. Plus the children began to go to school here. And they attached a, a reason for wanting to live here because they knew or had nowhere else to go. We did not have a car to go traveling anywhere. So we were pretty much set–like many of the Armenians were– they just maybe had one family car that they could afford. And it took an awful long time to travel from one city to another. Uh, traveling to Massachusetts used to take as much as five or six hours. 27:48 JK: Um, now going to school did you–was there an Armenian school that you could attend here or–? 27:53 AK: There were– there, there were Armenian schools set up. Uh, Louise, my older sister, um, ended up going to Armenian school. She learned to read and write it as well. But, uh, we did not my other siblings never had the opportunity to go to an Armenian school, uh, when we were, uh, younger, but, um, my, uh, when we have subsequently developed a priest coming here more frequently, we have had schools I will get into that much later. But, uh, when we had a full time priest for a period of time, we would have Armenian classes, um– 28:52 JK: And did that include Bible school or Sunday school or– 28:56 AK: We used to have Sunday schools. I mean, this is back, uh, much later, after I came back to Binghamton, uh, from medical school and my residency, we used to have a Armenian Sunday school, but we used to have church services more frequently. 29:21 JK: And, uh, when you were growing up in high school and, uh, secondary school, did you associate yourself with the other Armenians in the community or–? 29:33 AK: No not really, more became assimilated with everybody, but we knew each other. We knew each other but we happen to be, uh, in classes with other Armenian students. And, uh, but that was after, uh, well, for example, the high school in the first ward, uh, which was Daniel Dickinson. It does not exist [indistinct] there used to at least be one or two Armenians in, uh, our class that we knew, um, but that was because we knew each other from, uh, playing in the playgrounds before we went to school. We used to play in the, um, field on Jarvis street with other Armenians, but we play with a lot of, uh, Slavic children. Uh, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, we, um, had a close association with, with, um, them as we grow up, you know, from the age of five to the age of fifteen, uh, we played with each other, there were always some Armenians that we played with in the community. 31:06 JK: So, um, after, uh, school you went on to college. And, um, what school did you attend, after– 31:17 AK: What’s that? 31:18 JK: What University did you attend after? 31:21 AK: Well, I graduated from Binghamton Central High School. It was Binghamton Central High School at the time. It is now Binghamton High School. I went to, um, Syracuse University and graduated from Syracuse around 1955, (19)56 and I graduated from med–the medical school at Syracuse, which was the State University of New York College of Medicine. And then I went from there to New York City. Af–after spending eight years in Syracuse, I went to New York City to do my internship and a surgical residency in general surgery and my, um, Vascular Surgery at, um, Mount Sinai in New York City. I came to Binghamton in 1966 and went into a practice of surgery with Dr. Bowman and Dr. Peters. And I have been practicing ever since. 32:43 JK: And– 32:44 AK: –Since 1966, my partners have passed away. 32:50 JK: You are the only one left. 32:52 AK: I am the last. 32:54 JK: And what was your reasoning after traveling to Syracuse and New York City, uh, coming back to Binghamton, did you want to come back because your family or–? 33:03 AK: I was coming, I was coming back to my hometown. I practiced, um, for about two years. And I got drafted at the height of the Vietnam War. I ended up spending two years in the Army. 33:22 JK: And– 33:23 AK: –And, and after that, I came back to Binghamton– 33:27 JK: To practice, uh– 33:28 AK: To practice general and vascular surgery. 33:33 JK: And, uh, whilst you are in–when you were in Syracuse and New York City, was there a stronger Armenian community? 33:42 AK: Yes, I ultimately got married in nineteen–in nineteen sixty, and, uh, in fact that met my wife in 1960. We got married in 1960 and finished medical school at the same time. I went to, um, New York City and we used to go to the Armenian Church in Queens. We lived in– my wife and I lived in, um, Brooklyn at the time, and we went to the Armenian Church in Bayside, New York. And then I went into my residency of surgery. We lived in Jersey City and we went whenever I could get away from the hospital and get free we went to the Armenian Church in Union City, uh, New York, I am sorry New Jersey and, uh, lived there until we came to Binghamton. 35:00 JK: Uh, going back to when you were growing up with your family in Binghamton. Um, did you see Armenian, uh, presence in your family life? Or did you see more Americanized? 35:15 AK: No Armenians did not really have a opportunity to socialize, because there was no, uh, common activity that would bring them together like a church service–whenever they have church service. So the Armenians did not socialize that much they did not, um, they did not get together too frequently because there was not a good meeting place. There was an Armenian club on Jarvis Street. Uh, but I was too young to ever go there. My dad used to go there. There used to be an Armenian club on Jarvis Street, which was located near Main Street on Jarvis Street. Then there was another Armenian club on Main Street, which was near–the landmarks are now all gone. Um, there used to be a theater–the Jarvis Theater, which was located just about fifty yards from the, um, Clark Street and on Main Street, the–the Jarvis theater is gone. The furniture store is gone. The A&P across the street is all gone. But there was an army in club there and that was in existence even when I was up to the age of, uh, eighteen. And then that gradually fell apart as people begin to pass away, the old timers just did not keep it up. 37:15 JK: And what– do you recall what you are even though you were young, do you recall what they did at Armenian clubs? What kind of events? What–what did they do at the Armenian clubs? Just hang out or? 37:27 AK: No, no, the Armenian kids did not really– Armenian children did not really get together to play with each other maybe there was only one family that I remember the Avedisians, Avedisians, um, who lived on Jarvis street when we lived on the corner of Main of Clinton Street and, um, Jarvis street. It was probably the only Armenians that we played with, the Avedisians they were–Antony Avedisian, uh, Archie Avedisians and Michael Avedisians. Michael became an officer in the United States Army, then became a lawyer and practiced out in Paducah, Kentucky. Andy Avedisian, his younger brother became a lawyer. I know, I remember he went to NYU law school in New York. And Archie worked for the boys club. My brothers, my brothers are all self-employed. Go ahead. 38:51 JK: And, um, you are saying about the Armenian clubs, clubs that they had during that time. What did they do at the Armenian clubs? 39:00 AK: I never went to them because I was too young to go. 39:04 JK: Yeah did you hear any stories or anything or–? None. 39:07 AK: No. No, my dad did not, he just– all he did there was play cards [laughs]. That is all I can remember. 39:19 JK: And, um, going back to, uh, meeting your wife, did you want to marry an Armenian or did your parents? [cellphone rings] 39:31 AK: Yes. But I was not going to marry her while I was still in college or I was in medical school but in my very last year in medical school is when I met my wife at an Armenian dance that I was going to. I was in between clerkships in medical school. So I was free that weekend, and a group from Syracuse an Armenian group from Syracuse, um, decided they want to go to the Armenian dance in Springfield, Massachusetts. And I was going with a girl from Springfield, Massachusetts at the time. So, I joined them in going to the Armenian dance in, uh, Springfield, Massachusetts. And that is where I am instead of paying attention to the girl that I was going with, I met my wife, Adrian at the dance and decided to marry her. And while I was in Syracuse, I did become associated with the, uh, Armenian club, in– of you– young people in, uh, Syracuse and, uh, became affiliated with the Armenian Church in Syracuse, which ultimately purchased a Protestant Church and converted it to an Armenian Church. And I was very active with the Armenian youth in Syracuse while I was there in Syracuse for eight years. I was four years at the university and four years at the Medical School. So, I spent a great deal of time with a close friends that I developed in the Armenian community who were initially going to the university. 41:50 JK: Was– 41:50 AK: –And maintained that friendship. Even coming back to Binghamton. I have still had a close association with the Armenian peers my age at that time we have grown together as a community. 42:12 JK: And before they bought, bought the Protestant church was there another Armenian Church that you attended? While at– 42:18 AK: No there was no Armenian Church, they were using a, a, um, a, uh, meeting club that belong to a, um, a Protestant organization or there may have been a small compound that was used by the, by the, um, young people in, uh, in Syracuse. But they had a rented a Protestant facility, uh, in Syracuse and used to have their church service whenever they could get a priest come to the– come to the, um, community. I am going to get a drink of water. 43:18 JK: So, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian? Or was it your decision or–? 43:22 AK: No, I just never thought of marrying anybody but an Armenian. Since I had a close relationship with my parents, I just never put the idea or thought in my mind, because I was, number one, in school, in college. I never thought about wanting to get married before I finished college. Number two, uh, I did not think about wanting to get married even while I was in medical school. So the topic never came up or the thought never came up even to mention it to my parents. I met an awful lot of girls. It was just that, the desire to wanting [coughs] the desire to want to get married while I was in college and medical school until I was– reached the age of twenty-six. Then I started looking. 44:28 JK: And, um, what was the–so when you wanted to get married, it was only, you only focused on Armenians. 44:36 AK: I met a lot of Armenian girls, but I was not interested because I was still in medical school. But then when I was in my senior year, I thought this was a perfect opportunity to want to get married. So I started looking, but not really seriously but, and I did not meet Adrian until I was in my last six months of medical school. 45:13 JK: And, um, going to more generalized ideas about Armenian, uh, culture–what do you think makes you most Armenian? 45:24 AK: I think I am, I have always had a, a interest in [indistinct] a interest in the Armenian community, the Armenian Church, even though I had limited exposure to it. Because even in my serious years of education, which was between eighteen and twenty-six that I, that I thought, being more serious about it because of the history of the Armenian Church, uh, and what little I had learned about it without any formal education. 46:20 JK: And what does it mean for you to be an Armenian? What does it mean for you to be an Armenian? 46:28 AK: It means for me to be proud to be an Armenian. The fact that I am, uh, interested in as much as the history of the Armenian, Armenians– the history, the Armenian Church makes me feel that I am proud of my, um, not only my community, but the Armenian folkways its mores are all a–as rich as any other, other racial denomination. As a result of that, uh, desire of being proud of the fact that it is a, a history that if, every time I get an opportunity to read about the Armenian Church, the Armenian history, the Armenian Church and how intricate the Armenian Church has become to the history of Armenia itself. It has suffered many hardships, many massacres over the years that, um, it has survived, but the Armenian Church has still survived, in spite of all these, uh, tortures, genocide, massacres, that the church and the community and the people have still survived. 48:19 JK: And, um. 48:26 AK: He is probably asleep. [laughs] 48:30 JK: Uh, and how would you define yourself, uh, right now? Would you, would you– 48:35 AK: Demi– define myself in the Armenian– 48:41 JK: Uh would you be American-Armenian, Armenian-American or one hundred percent Armenian or–? 48:46 AK: Well, I would like to be a good Armenian-American– as proud as other ethnic groups are proud of their background whether they are, you are Irish, Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, these other religions and these other groups of people are as proud of their, uh, ethnic background as the Jewish people are, for example. They are proud of their historical background. I am very proud and put mine equal to them and equally strong as they are toward their religion and their faith that I am closely, I have a close feeling, deep feeling for my own ethnic background. 49:51 JK: And have you ever visited or went back to the villages or Armenia? 49:56 AK: I have been to Armenia twice and I have enjoyed the–both occasions, the first time I was able to go there with my parents. The last time I have been to Armenia, um, that I feel a, a sense of wellbeing in the Armenian nation itself, the very earth that my parents, and the reason I am so, um, so proud of it. I am, I am proud of the fact that, number one, that in spite of the, um, the, uh, the fact that the Armenia, Armenia up until 1991, was occupied by the Soviet Union. It was Soviet socialist Republic. But now Armenia is an independent nation. One can divide– devise it is, uh, exact location in the fact that it is between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. It was occupied by the northeast corner of Turkey, the southern border of the Republic of Georgia. Uh, it is, uh, north of Iran. It is even though it is a very small country, it was a– the smallest of all the Soviet Socialist Republics. But I was proud being there with its people, three million people. The capital is Yerevan, the capital city was as modern as populated. It is a city of one million people. Just traveling to various historical places in Armenia was very proud and made me proud of just being there. I would like to go again, if my health permits. And, uh, everybody that I went with over there, would like to go back again? I mean, that is how strongly they feel, they felt about the being proud of the fact that they were Armenian. And even those, those who married into the Armenian, uh, faith as a result of, um, marriage are also enthusiastic about wanting to go back again. I will think about it [laughs]. 53:01 JK: Of course. Um, and do you think you can remain Ar– Armenian without the language or the church or the homeland? 53:09 AK: Many people, many Armenians who, uh, grew up Armenian may not have a file, a strong ability to speak the language, but they still want to remain or be Armenians. It helps a bit to be able to speak the language even more to be able to read it. I do not read it as well. I try to speak it the best I can. 53:46 JK: And what about the church? 53:48 AK: The church I feel very strongly about supporting the church, being a part of the church, going to the church as often as they have a, uh, religious service, if they had a church service, every Sunday, I would go to church every Sunday. At the present time, we have a visiting priest who comes to Binghamton, uh, twice a month, but I go to church or twice a month, because there is a service. And it gives a perfect opportunity to be together with people. And the closeness and bond is still there. 54:36 JK: And what about the homeland? 54:39 AK: I am st– I strongly support the home– homeland. As I said, I have only had the opportunity to go there twice. And I have enjoyed it. And I would love to go to back again. 54:53 JK: And did you ever visit the villages? 54:56 AK: Yes. 54:55 JK: Of your parents where they grew up? 54:57 AK: Oh no, no, those were in Turkey 55:00 JK: Okay. 55:01 AK: No, I, just, I would not want to go to Turkey. But I would want to go back to Armenia, because I feel that closeness, that adherence to the church, the people, their government. Very interesting that they have a democratic government in Armenia, and they are still in the midst of a upheaval around them. By that I made the Kurdish population in Turkey, want to become independent of Turkey. That is going to be an interesting problem. 55:46 JK: All right. I think that– 55:48 AK: Hope Arme–Armenia just does not get involved in that. But it is fortunate that the Armenian nation as it borders Turkey is protected by Russia–by the Russian government, the Russian, um, border guards the Armenian border guards are Russian that essentially tells Turkey that they are protecting them. 56:23 JK: And one last thing, what do you–what are your thoughts on, uh, America not supporting the Armenian genocide or not calling it Armenian– 56:33 AK: You mean our– America supporting Armenia? 56:35 JK: Or, uh, not recognizing that it is a genocide. 56:40 AK: That is a political thing. Political– I mean, we were promised that by presidents that they were going to do it, Bush, President Bush promised he was going to do it when he became president Obama promised he was going to recognize the Armenian Genocide but the Turkish Government has a very strong presence in Washington. But one of these days, they will have reco– they will recognize it, because many other countries have. In fact, in France, it is against the law to deny that the Armenian Genocide occurred. 57:21 JK: Is there anything else that you would like to add on this interview? 57:26 AK: No, I– get another opportunity where I can think more fully. I would love to have another conversation. 57:36 JK: Of course. Well, thank you so much. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Dr. Aristaks Kachadourian (1933-2019) was a general surgeon. Born in Binghamton, N.Y., to Armenian Genocide survivors, Dr. Kachadourian received  his Bachelor's of Science degree in Chemistry from Syracuse University and his medical degree from  the State University of New York College of Medicine in Syracuse, NY. He is survived by his wife and five daughters.  Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Aristaks Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9fc25066ab7beb78bd3983dee579d84e.mp3 9129aab24e9b82a3ced45907bc9143ca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 10/27/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Annie Kabakian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:31 Biographical Text Annie Kabakian (1955-2020) was the granddaughter of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to Lebanon in the early 1900s. Annie was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. Later on, she moved to Montreal, Canada.  She is survived by her husband and her four children. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Annie Kabakian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 27 October 2017 Interview Setting: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian; I am interviewing, uh, Annie Kabakian for Binghamton University’s Armenian Oral History Project. Today is October 27, 2017. Um, can you start out with your name and birthplace please? 0:20 AK: My name is Annie Kabakian and I was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:26 JK: And, um, what was the ethnicity of your parents? 0:30 AK: My parents were both from, uh, they were Armenian and they were born in, Lebanon also. But their uh, grand– I mean my grandparents were not born in Lebanon, they were born in Armenia. 0:46 JK: Uh, and do you know where in Armenia they were born? 0:50 AK: Well, they were born in, uh, ancient Armenia. One was from Antep, one was from Bursa. My mother was from Bursa. Now it is under, uh, uh, Turkish government. 1:10 JK: And, um, what were your– what were the circumstances that your family had to leave Armenia? 1:17 AK: Oh, they had to leave, uh, their, uh, their, uh, grandparents, I guess they had to leave because of the genocide in 1915 and then they went to other parts wherever they were received, they stayed there and, uh, slowly they migrated toward Lebanon. 1:39 JK: And what– 1:40 AK: –Over the years. 1:41 JK: And what were your pa– parent’s names? 1:44 AK: My father’s name was, um, Mihran Kabakian and my mother’s name was Meline Kashukchian. 1:53 JK: And where were they born in Lebanon? 1:56 AK: They were born in Beirut. 1:58 JK: Both of them? 2:00 AK: Both of them. I guess my father, uh, was born maybe in Aleppo, Syria and, uh, maybe at the age of two I believe, uh, they came, uh, to Lebanon. So– 2:15 JK:–And– 2:16 AK:–I guess that well maybe, uh, some sibling were born in Lebanon. 2:23 JK: And were both of your grandparents, uh, so both of your grandparents are from Armenia, on both sides– 2:30 AK: Yes. 2:31 JK: Do you, do you recall any stories or any information about that– when they lived there? 2:39 AK: Stories? Uh, no they were, uh, living, uh, like they were– it is about the genocide everything disturbed one under the Ott– the Ottoman Empire decided to, uh, move the Armenians from Armenia and, uh, um, and they started the genocide in 1915 and, uh, some of them, uh, they were fleeing the country–They were lucky they did not get killed on the road. Most of them got killed on the road also so my ancestors, some of them, they made it, uh, to other countries, the neighborhoods and, uh, they slowly came down to Lebanon, which was a Christian country. 3:32 JK: Do you, uh, remember how they escaped or, uh, what they did in Armenia? When they did live there. 3:44 AK: Uh, they escaped because some of the neighbors, they would hide them and help them to escape, that is how they survived. Or when they had good neighbors, uh, but they helped them, uh, you know in the beginning they were letting them flee the country because they wanted the land and everything out, uh, the wells and everything. But, uh, some of them as I said, they were lucky to flee the country but some of them got noted and massacred down the way. And they never made anywhere, so. 4:27 JK: And who were these, uh, were the neighbors Armenian or Turkish, or– 4:33 AK: No, no, uh, neighbors were– I was saying, uh, the neighbor who was like, uh, some, uh, neighbors who knew, uh, people would help them to flee. Some of them were Turk, yes, and they would know people to help them to flee. That is all I can remember my parents would tell us. Otherwise, they would have been massacred, too. Because they were coming door to door– the soldiers– to look for Armenians and that is how I guess some of them, uh, stayed alive. 5:13 JK: Do you know– do you remember when your grandparents, uh, left Armenia, how old they were, or no? 5:19 AK: No, no, no. No, I do not– I do not remember. 5:25 JK: Did your parents ever go back to Armenia? 5:28 AK: No, no. Because after it fell under the Russian, uh, became a part of Russia and we– all the land and the houses were confiscated so they had nowhere to go. And all the relatives were either, uh, massacred or had left the country so there was no reason for them, uh, they could not go back because, uh, as I said they left with nothing. So, everything they had was confiscated. 6:06 JK: And– 6:07 AK: –Oh, they continued life and they worked in, uh, wherever they made it until they reach Lebanon. 6:15 JK: And, uh, were you, you grew up in Lebanon, correct? 6:19 AK: Yes, and my father, uh I grew up in Lebanon. My father, um, was studying in school. He got a sponsorship to go and study in Wyoming and, uh, he became a chemical engineer, and, uh, then he came back to Beirut, Lebanon to take care of his family and, uh, he founded the first, uh, textile printing, I believe in the Middle East and, uh, that is, yeah. 6:58 JK: And, uh, growing up did you attend Armenian school in Lebanon, or– 7:06 AK: Yes, I, uh, attended uh the very famous Armenian, uh, Hamazkayin Djemaran in Beirut in Beirut. Which became an institution, uh, for Armenians to learn about, uh, the language and, uh the culture for foreigners. 7:28 JK: Was there a lot of Armenians where you lived in Beirut? 7:32 AK: Yes. We, we lived in an Armenian neighborhood. Of course, it was all mixed with the Lebanese people, too. But always the Armenians, they, uh, stayed together, they find, uh, a place to found a church and a school so we continue our, uh, I mean to survive and stay Armenian. 7:58 JK: And I am assuming that, um, your whole family spoke Armenian– your parents, your siblings, you included? 8:05 AK: Yes, yes. Of course, we adopted the country that we live at but we went to Armenian school. Of course, we spoke Armenian but we had to learn Arabic, which was the language of the country and French also, or English as an international language as Lebanon was a French colony after the World, uh, War. So, we had to take a few languages– Armenian because we were Armenian, Arabic because we lived in Lebanon and French and English as international languages. 8:46 JK: Uh, growing up in your school, were the other Armenian families, uh, that mi– uh came to Lebanon and Beirut, was it because of the genocide? 8:56 AK: Well, of course, most of them– most of them we were– alike, yes. Most of them–the, uh, yeah. I believe so. 9:09 JK: And do you recall any stories from that or–anything at all from the migration? 9:18 AK: I– it was all the similar stories like, uh, a neighbor’s house and everything got confiscated. They had to leave and they were– and, uh, some of them, uh, some of the family members died on the road because of starvation and it is all similar stories. And, uh, some of them have more tragic stories, some of them, uh, it is– different stories depending on the road they were led by their, uh, connections and, uh, some went to Greece some went to France, uh, some stayed in Syria because they could not continue. Uh, Armenia was a very big country then, now it is very small and, uh, that was why some went to Jerusalem. Yeah, they all have different stories but very similar. 10:27 JK: And, uh, in the Armenian school you, you had all Armenian friends, I am assuming, or– 10:37 AK: Yes, yes. We were all Armenians but, uh, because it was like an institution and we had the boarding section too, um, people came– like, students came from all over the countries. Like from United States and, uh, France and Greece to learn Armenian and the history and the country because, uh, their ancestors had made to all these countries, you know, uh, around that time. 11 :16 JK: Uh, also in Bing– 11:17 AK: Because there is like three generations who were speaking– 11:21 JK:–Also, yeah, in, um, Beirut, did you attend Armenian Church? 11:28 AK: Yes, uh, on Sundays we would go to Armenian church and our parents would take us, uh, uh, to church it was–we learned about the traditions through, um, like, uh, the festive days and everything they kept all the traditions and it was, uh, commemoration days also like April 24th which, uh, we commemorate, uh, and we remember the worst day of the genocide 1915, April 24 and, uh, and after that one, um, in 1918, May 28 we got our independence. We celebrate that day– we celebrate in school and we celebrate in the church also, just to remember our ancestors and we organize, uh, cultural, uh, gatherings. So, that is how we learn more about our culture and traditions. 12:40 JK: And, um, after Lebanon, you moved to Montreal, correct? 12:47 AK: Yes, during the Lebanese War, we had no choice, we, we wanted to stay but the Civil War was, uh, very treacherous and, uh, we had to stay but always we thought that we would go back to Lebanon and we were always grateful and we loved the country but the war never ended and it became, uh, even worse so we stayed in Montreal and we continued the same traditions–that we had started in, uh, in Beirut, Lebanon. 13:35 JK: And was there a big Armenian community in Montreal? 13:39 AK: Yes, and uh the first uh comers like there are Armenians– they were Armenian who had been stopped in Egypt because that is how far they could go like um from the genocide and uh when there was big uh war in Egypt too, some people migrated to Montreal. Many Armenians came to Armenia, uh, from Egypt to, uh, Montreal and, uh, over the years other Armenians came from Syria and in 19– around 1974 and so on, uh, we came from, uh, Lebanon so Armenians before us like from Egypt they had started already to build an Armenian church and the school and we always continued to continue and build our church and schools so, uh, we continue, uh, and to preserve our roots and never forget what our ancestors went through, uh, yeah. 15:01 JK: And how did you preserve your Armenian traditions other than the church and the school? What other ways did you– 15:10 AK: It– now that I am married and I have, uh, my, uh, kids I continue to do the same way as my parents did and more, um, in different ways. We, we go to church, maybe not as often, but we still go at festive days and, uh, certain historic days now, Armenia became independent in September 25th, to– from the Russian Empire. So, we have that celebration to–and same as my parents did, we also– and my husband we always speak Armenian in the house and we always tell them, uh, traditions from the literature and we take them to Armenian theater or we, uh, send them to learn the Armenian dance. Uh, in the school or in the community center– we have a community center and we organize, um, celebrations on like history days and festive days and holidays. So, we always keep the songs we used to sing some of them, some parts of it and that is how and now with the internet, they have, uh, they have access to all kinds of the Armenian history even though they went a few years to Armenian school. Um, now, sometimes for school, they do their research on Armenian history or as you are doing Jackie, and that is how we keep our traditions and, uh, we learn more. 17:29 JK: And would you say– which, uh, area you lived in, either Montreal or Beirut, which one had a stronger Armenian community do you think? 17:41 AK: Of course in Beirut. Although we adapted to the Lebanese and we interacted and we learned a lot from them too, and food and the festive days. We always had our community center and, and I should say, Beirut was a very, very small city so we are very connected. Here in Montreal, it is very big and there are many Armenians who went to different parts of Canada and the States. We have a– big communities in Toronto, Vancouver, like in LA, and New Jersey. So whoever has the family wherever they went there so, I believe we have thirty-thousand Armenian maybe in Canada, so we always have a community center, and, uh, it is getting smaller, but we are in many major cities in the world in Europe, in France. Also we have a big community in France because whoever went there, they, they stayed there and they continue. We have churches and schools maybe in Marcy and in Paris maybe, so– 19:13 JK: And, um, going back to your family and the traditions. Uh, what were some traditions that represented Armenia to you in the household, like whether certain fo– foods or holidays you would celebrate? 19:29 AK: I picked up everything. A bit of some food that, um, because we were– we used to have big families and, uh, sometimes we make food for a lot of people we have and I continue telling stories about the names of the food and, I do not know, it is the traditions; what we do on some holidays like January the sixth and Easter. They eat not only about– it is about– how can I say religious connotations too we, we, uh, it is not allowed but a little of– a bit of everything the folklore dances and, uh– 20:32 JK:–What kind of foods do you know or certain foods that you guys would eat or like the songs or dances, can you name? 20:45 AK: Well [laughs] I cannot explain that but, uh, I can talk about harissa which is very famous food with Armenians would be– which is like made with meat and, uh, cracked wheat so and you make a lot– it is very healthy because winters were very harsh in, uh, Ar– like Armenia so they would make this food which would give a lot of energy and the word means like you have to beat a lot to make a very homogeneous mixture and our teachers would tell stories about this food that whoever came to the house had to stir it and stir it because the name says like harissa means like very continuously and the–that is how it was named and, ah, this kind of stories I tell them and our teachers would say sometimes because we were very inviting people and when–because it–this food takes a long while to make it. Some, uh, like fathers would see that the hus– like the wife was making this food and they would invite all their friends because it has made a lot and funny stories. And all of a sudden the whole house is full of people. Stories like that, but yeah, and the dance most of the time on happy occasions we put the Armenian music and danced folkloric dance. Some of the dances are very gracious, some of them is, uh, very how can I say, uh, 23:00 JK: Emotional? 23:01 AK: Very, I do not know how to say. You have to see it. 23:07 JK: And, um, was your husband– is your husband Armenian? 23:11 AK: Yes, my husband is Armenian too and we have similar stories and, uh, yeah. And, uh, he, he has the same beliefs and the– we adapt to the country that received us, but we keep always our traditions. And we acquire other traditions throughout the cities and countries that we live in. And, uh, it makes very interesting we are open to other cultures too, and we keep our traditions also. 23:55 JK: And, um, did you teach your children to learn Armenian? 24:01 AK: Pardon? 24:02 JK: Did you teach your children Armenian growing up? 24:05 AK: Yes, yes they went a few years to Armenian school. Uh, and yeah we continue speaking Armenian and sometimes, uh, you know, sometimes they answer in English but I continuously answer in Armenian they, they, uh, they, uh, because it is not the same life here as it was in Beirut, Lebanon. 24:39 JK: And was it important for you to teach them Armenian? 24:42 AK: Yes, of course. When you know a language you know better culture and understand better the people and the way they live and, uh, it is very important. It does not hurt to know your language and learn more. 25:03 JK: And have you ever been back? Or have you ever been to Armenia? 25:08 AK: No, my husband has been and one of my daughters have been, uh, to Armenia and, uh, yeah one of my daughters, Karine has been to Armenia and visited the places and help, um, wherever there was a need because we had a very horrible earthquake, too, so– 25:40 JK:–Did you ever want to go? 25:42 AK:–Please continue, yeah. 25:44 JK: Have you ever wanted to go to Armenia or visit? 25:47 AK: Of course, of course, of course. We are going to go– I am thinking of taking the whole family. But the schedules are different. And so we always believe, eventually, we going to go and, uh, yes. 26:03 JK: And how would you identify yourself? Canadian-Armenian, Armenian-Lebanese? 16:14 AK: Um, I am– my nationality is Lebanese but I am Armenian. So– and now I live in Canada and I have the Canadian citizenship and we adapt but we are Armenian we, we live as we adapt to the country we adapt to the Canadian life and we go with their traditions, too, but we never forget ours either. We are Armenians in Canada. My kids are Canadians but they are Armenian descent and I be– I live now in Canada, and that is the way of life by a breath and I am Armenian. 27:09 JK: And, um, do you think you can remain Armenian without either the language, the homeland or the church? 27:20 AK: Um, it is– by name, you can remain but if you–it is about the willingness to know about your roots. If you do not have that willingness, it does not–and if you do not contribute to the Armenian life and the community, and– then you do not remain Armenian, it is the willingness of people to, uh, remain Armenian, but adapt to the country that has received us. You do not have to lose your identity. It does not mean that I am not Canadian. So– but my roots– my– I am born Armenian. 28:11 JK: And what about the church? Do you think you can be Armenian without the church as a whole or no? 28:22 AK: We can be Armenian but Armenians were the first nation to be Christian. I believe in three-o-one we were the first nation. So, um, I cannot answer that question, but you can be Armenian. If you are not Christian, if you do not want to remain Christian, you can still remain Armenian. But it is the willingness as I said, it is up– it is individually us–or maybe we know too much about our history and ancestors, we continue– our duty because our ancestors, they were massacres and they died for– to keep us, uh, the country and, uh, that is our land. So we do our duty for our Armenian nation. 29:34 JK: Okay, thank you so much. Is there anything else you would like to add or say? 29:41 AK: Huh? 29:42 JK: Uh, is there anything else you would like to add to the interview? 29:49 AK: No it is enough, uh, Jackie because– 29:50 JK:–Thank you. (End of Recording 1) 29:54 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collections Library. This is a continuation interview with Annie Kabakian. So, um, what did your family members do, um, before the genocide? 30:12 AK: All I can remember is that, um, my father’s side ancestors they had big land in Armenia and they were cultivating pumpkins and, uh, so when they left, uh, we– they left all that land behind and they went to Antep first where– you know– they were forced to move there so, uh, my grandfather at that time became a controller in a bank and that is all I remember. And I remember that, um, one of my grandma’s fathers were in the– was a general in the Army and his name is in the Armenian history books but I have the picture but I cannot remember his name and then, uh, one of my father’s side uncle was a lawyer in Antep in Bursa, by the way, in Bursa, another part that the Armenians were forced to move. And, um, I remember my mom saying that the father was a big, uh, famous tailor for the army outfits, um, that is how they survived– all of them, uh, most of them, I should say, uh, my uncle the lawyer was, uh, hung during the– those times of 1920– yeah somewhere around there. Yes, so, uh, that is it. 32:04 JK: And he was hung because he was Armenian, or– 32:11 AK: Pardon? 32:12 JK: It– uh the last part you said he was hung, because he was Armenian? 32:17 AK: Yeah, well he was hung in, uh, I think in Bursa and, uh, yeah. Uh, and, um, my grandma got married and my father I believe he was born in, uh, somewhere in Aintab and then, uh, during the genocide times, they were moved to Syria and then I do not believe they stayed too long and they came to Lebanon. Yeah. And my mother too, uh, was from Bursa. She was– the family was from Bursa, she was born in Beirut, Lebanon. Yeah. 33:01 JK: Is there anything else you would like to add, or– 33:10 AK: Uh, like, um, my grandparents were– one controller in Aintab and the other one was born in Bursa on the way sometimes, Armenians, when they meet, they marry, so, uh, that was how they got married and, um, we always try to stay together in communities as our short story famous writer William Saroyan always says, “Wherever there are two Armenians, they come together, they build a church and a school and we can never destroy their sense of community.” That is all I can say, that is how we survive and we continue our traditions and with survival sometimes it is the willingness, uh, to continue because we know how much our ancestors– they tried hard and survived and, uh, you know. Life goes on. 34:21 JK: Exactly. 34:22 AK: Yes. 34:22 JK: Thank you so much. 34:26 AK: Very welcome. 34:27 JK: All right. 34:27 AK: Okay. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Annie Kabakian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3a8c37b34ea56f6ce9e2cff1bc9c547a.mp3 031dcbd2a02628bce97c9e6894c2e3f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 11/26/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Varoujan Kabakian Language Engish Digital Publisher Binghamron University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 21:50 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Varoujan Kabakian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 26 November 2017 Interview Setting: Phone Interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collection Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is November 26, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:15 VK: Yeah, my name is Varoujan Kabakian. 0:18 JK: And where were you born? 0:20 VK: I am born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:24 JK: And who are your ̶ Who are your parents and where were they born? 0:29 VK: Yeah, my father was born in. Um, Antep, the old Armenia and now it is Turkish area. My mother was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:45 JK: And, um ̶ Why did they ̶ Why did not ̶ How did you relocate from Canada or from Lebanon to Canada or from Antep, as well? 1:00 VK: Yeah, well, you know, from my father was born in just before the Armenian genocide. And so with the parents, they run down south on the map to Aleppo, Syria, because of the First World War. And after a while they move to Beirut, which is a bit southern and on the Mediterranean and where he met my mother, and they got married, and I have three brothers ̶ no, two brothers and two sisters. And what happened is I am born in Beirut and when I was eighteen, the Civil War breakup in Lebanon, the famous Civil War in Lebanon. So as we were Armenians and the Civil War was among the Arabs and Palestinians, you know, religion all mixed up. We were not involved in the Civil War. So what happened is we decided to move on. And then at that time, the Canadian Embassy was making it easy for us to immigrate to Canada. So we applied and we got accepted and we came to Canada. That was, that was what happened like we keep on moving and moving. But now Canada is, you know, more Christian countries. So as we are Christians, we find finally a country that is close to our customs on the origin. 2:59 JK: Hmm, do you recall the stories of your father who lived in Antep? What it was like in the village? 3:08 VK: Yeah, yeah, was ̶ What I heard like they used to talk a lot at that time, you know, because the memories were fresh when I was young. They kept on telling us the stories. It was a nice, very nice village, you know, like, more with the ̶ Um, surrounded with vineyards. And they were really the vineyards was the main agricultural aspect of the village, you know, like hills. 3:43 JK: Yeah. Yeah. 3:48 VK: And what can I say? Very nice place, very nice. The weather was very nice. I mean hot. 3:56 JK: Was it mostly Armenians? 4:00 VK: Dry, I guess. And they were in the vineyard business. And then with the war they moved on to, as I said to down south to Syria, which, which, which they welcome them and you know, the life continues. 4:16 JK: So they had to leave Antep. 4:20 VK: Yeah. 4:20 JK: Were they forced? 4:23 VK: Because after ̶ Like a civil war and the genocide as it turned to genocide, you know, it was a mixed with the First World War and again, was not far from so they had to run for their lives. Otherwise, I would not be here. That is what happens. You know, you have to sometimes you have to ̶ you know like get a ̶ you have to ̶ 4:53 JK: What did, what did your father do and how old was he when he left? Do you remember? Was ̶ you? 5:03 VK: Oh yeah, he was like a baby when he left Antep, he was like two years old, two, three years old, newly born or I guess, something like that we never know the real age because you know, of the events there. You know, they did not kept record of the ̶ I do not know, I guess the real date but it was very it was very small. 5:30 JK: Did he have any? Did he have any siblings? 5:33 VK: The family they moved into Aleppo and the father, they survived that to do their work and to find other ways. Yeah. 5:45 JK: Yeah. Did he have any siblings growing up or was it just him? 5:54 VK: I did not get it. Sorry. 5:55 JK: Did he have any siblings growing up brothers or sisters? 6:01 VK: Yeah, for sure. Umm, he told me like you had the brother, an older brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was what the ̶ his brother helped him I guess survive and the ̶ I do not remember, I guess yeah one brother. Yeah. 6:27 JK: Okay. Both of your parents were Armenian correct, 100 percent? 6:33 VK: Yeah. 100 percent yeah. 6:37 JK: And growing up in Lebanon, did they keep the Armenian tradition or did you go to Armenian Church or school? 6:46 VK: Yeah, what happened is as a refugee like the number at that time was a huge you know, because it was a mass movement of people from Armenia to Syria, Lebanon. And Lebanon to ̶ So what happened is because of the number we were like we, we were elected. Kept all our tradition because, because of the number right. We were not like, one person, or one thousand ̶ At that time, I imagine was like, by ten out of ten thousands of them, you know, like they moved into Lebanon. So they lived together like as, as a community so and when you live together as a community, they build church, they build a school. What happens, we were lucky to keep our traditions and everything because we were not dispersed among other religions because you know, Lebanon, there are so many religions, there are no Muslims, different kinds of Muslims, different kind of Christians. You Name it. So, we live ̶ the neighborhood was we were all Armenians. You know the school was not far, the church was not far so I do not even remember I had ̶ a friend. All my friends were Armenian. I know my father because of the work, you know, you get involved with different people but me as a born in Beirut, it was as if I was in Armenia. [laughs] You know, like, all my friends were Armenian, the area was Armenian. That was how we kept our division. 8:37 JK: What are your parents do in Lebanon for work? 8:43 VK: Oh, my father, I think my father was very bright. So what happened is, he came to the States to study university and he graduated from Wyoming University. So, when he returned to Lebanon, he was in the textile business you know, like he was very talented in, in the field, the chemistry field. So he did a lot of things, dyeing textiles, coloring, textiles, printing, so he was in that business. So until the civil war he was he had his own place. He was producing different kind of textiles, silk, cotton um, you know. 9:42 JK: And, so, would you say all of your friends were mostly Armenian growing up? 9:48 VK: Yeah, yeah, Lebanon, we were mostly, like I said, I do not remember I had a friend or another ̶ Yeah, they were all Armenians because we were living in an Armenian neighborhood you know. As I said we had the numbers so we were in the neighborhood of Armenians. You know, when I was schooling when I finished I did not even finish the school so because of the Civil War, so I came I did not have the chance to go out for sure you go to the mountains you go somewhere else in Lebanon. For sure you see little, but that was only temporary ̶ time we spend like with Armenians. 10:34 JK: Did you learn Armenian growing up as a kid or did you speak in the household? 10:43 VK: Yeah, we use ̶ my mother, you know my mother language, my father language was Armenian with the house we used to speak Armenian. Of course in the school we learn Arabic, we learn French, we learn English, as well as Armenian. So ̶ But there is no problem with that. 11:04 JK: And so when you when you were with your siblings and your family would speak mainly Armenian? 11:10 VK: Yeah that time you love or not like, you will not see ̶ it was hardly only the older people they used to speak Turkish because of the back ̶ in their country you know like used to be only Turkish because it was forbidden to speak Armenian in Armenia. But in West Armenia, in eastern Armenia and nor was forbidden to speak Armenia, Armenian you know. You had to speak Turkish so the older people were speaking Turkish at home, but the younger generation somehow learn more Armenian than Turkish, yeah. 12:01 JK: Did your parents know Turkish or no? 12:05 VK: No, no, no. Yeah, my ̶ They used to speak Turkish. Yeah, but they are Armenian. They are Armenians born in eastern Armenia. Eastern Armenia? No, I mean western Armenia. Sorry. Western Armenia is more Turkish speaking because of the Turkish Empire you know? Yeah. 12:27 JK: Yeah. 12:29 VK: Yeah. History is, it is another aspect. 12:39 JK: When, um, when so when your father was in Antep, were your family forbidden to speak Armenian or was there Armenians in the area, would you ̶ 12:51 VK: He was, he was forbidden to speak Armenian at home even at home. You know, if you Speak, you have to speak like you have to make sure that you speak there was no nobody hears because if somebody hears and they tell the government you know, they ̶ there were some penalties, big penalties. I do not want to go far. [laughs] But there were some penalties ̶ was very bad becoming in at that time. 13:19 JK: And, how did you ̶ Have you ever wanted to go back to the village or Armenia? Wherever? Have you ever been back? 13:29 VK: No, I have not been but my cousin went, like twenty years, like, I think, or fifteen years ago, she went and there were ̶ she said, there were still some Armenian homes left but with no Armenians, but they turn it to move museums. You know, like, you could tell me in names still you could see some, some history that ̶ it has still kept but now they are all Kurdish and some Turks, you know, because it is an area that Armenia is shared with the Kurdish people, you know, and Kurdish people were Muslim. So that is why they survived because of their religion and we as being a Christian, we had to move on, you know. We had to emigrate south. 14:26 JK: Yeah. And, um, when you move to Montreal, Canada, did you guys keep the Armenian traditions? 14:39 VK: A Yes. For sure. Because Canada, Montreal being a Christian city, you know, and it was easier, you know, religion side, at least more freedom of religious expression and everything. And the tradition. Yeah, there were ̶ As I said, in Beirut there were we had some numbers when we came to Montreal, there was an Armenian community already established here. So but not as much as in Lebanon you know, but still, if you want to keep your tradition you could keep your tradition because you have community which is still remembering the Armenian tradition. 15:29 JK: And um, in the house would you grew up in your household with your family? What kind of traditions did you guys keep that were Armenian like the food or holidays that you celebrated? 15:45 VK: The holidays especially the ̶ all the food for sure, because we were used to it that Mediterranean style food but for sure. We ̶ Canadian French food and Canadian Food is welcome too. Because it is not, it is not complicated as Armenian food so it's easier to make you cannot always make Armenian traditional food so you make Canadian of food which is more convenient. But holidays is the second thing that we respect and remember because of these three. 16:34 JK: Okay. And you attended church in Montreal to you said the community was big right? 16:42 VK: Yeah we have like two, three Armenian churches you know and we do not go as often as before, before we used to go every Sunday now we go like once in a while because you know, it is the cold weather, the way of life, the style of life is different now you do not have as much time to do the way you do things before, you know, but we still go for sure. 17:18 JK: And, it was it. Was it important for you to get married or to be married to Arme ̶ Armenian or? 17:27 VK: Because of the history, you know, like, we have to keep alive the history that we went through and remember where we came from? So, it was for me important maybe some people, they are not old, they do not follow as much as some others and everybody is different in it depends on your beliefs, you know, your beliefs if you forget, it is easy to not get married with an Armenian but if you believe that you have to get married with an Armenian you could get married with an Armenian. So it is all depend on you. 18:15 JK: And, was it important for your family as an adult to keep the Armenian traditions? 18:23 VK: Oh yeah for sure. Especially the closer you from the timing ̶ and close to the refugee time it is stronger the beliefs to stay Armenian to keep the tradition to get married to the Armenian. But now with as the generations move further and further, you see more people not marrying the same. 18:58 JK: And, um, finally, how would you identify or what would you say you identify yourself as in like your homeland? Are you a Canadian, Armenian or Armenian, Canadian or Lebanese, for example? How would you describe your identity? 19:20 VK: I am Armenian Canadian, now. I am naturalized Canadian. Also, I am Armenian Canadian. 19:29 JK: And, um finally, do you think it is important for the Armenian culture to have um the church or the language? What do you think is most important that comes with Armenian culture? 19:53 VK: Part of the Armenian history you know, we were very Christian or we believed in it and the religion is number one I would say number one reason being Armenian you know, and then the language for sure. But mostly the most important is religion because we are known to be very religious Christian. So I think as long as we have the religion we will stay Armenian. 20:29 JK: And, um, do you think you would ever want to go to Armenia? 20:35 VK: Yeah, for sure. I sent my daughter last year to Armenia. Me, it is hard a bit harder to go because of the work I cannot go that far and that longer because to go to Armenia still you have to spend like two three weeks a month you know, I do not have I usually do not take vacation. So maybe what I get tired I would love to go and visit my country. 21:05 JK: Okay, great. Thank you. Is there anything else you want to add about the Armenian culture, your family where they grew up? 21:17 VK: Oh, I know is a nice place that I like to be there. But for now, I cannot be. But the future will see. For now, we hope to visit and really see what kind of place was. Well now I cannot say anything. But we hope that one day we visit. 21:45 JK: Okay, great. Thank you so much. 21:48 VK: You are welcome. Thank you. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Varoujan Kabakian is the son of a genocide survivor who immigrated from Turkey to Lebanon in the early 1900s. Varoujan was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. Later on, he moved to Montreal, Canada. He continues to live there with his family. Keywords Armenians; Lebanon; Turkey; Beirut; Genocide; Survivors; Religion; Culture; Language; Family. Material Type Sound Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Varoujan Kabakian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c3a18069bfe5794ca2e111e9fa19e8c4.mp3 76cd6b34a1185ff94d332158d338a972 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12/1/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marion and Dr. George Rejebian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Armenian Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information Biographical Text Marion Rejebian was born in Bronx, NY to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. Marion went to Hunter College and became an elementary school teacher. She taught for a few years of her marriage and then she devoted her life to raise her children. Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George and Marion currently resides in Binghamton and together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Marion and George Rejebian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 1 December 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   (Start of Interview)   00:05 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian oral history project. Today is No ̶  December 1, 2017. Can you please state your names for the record?    00:19 MR: Sure. I am Marion Rejebian and this is my husband George.    00:24 GR: I am-yeah I am Dr. George Rejebian.    00:28 JK: And where were you both born?    00:30 MR: I was born in the Bronx, New York City and George was born in Binghamton.   00:38 JK: And who are your parents and where were they born?    00:42 MR: Okay. My parents were Garabed and Dicranouhi Ekizian, E-K-I-Z-I-A-N. And they were born in Chomaklou [Turkish: Çomaklı], which is in Turkey which is a very small hilly village just south, south of the Erciyes Mountain [Turkish: Erciyes Dağı] and near to Syria. George, why do not you tell them?    01:14 GR: Oh yeah, my parents, my father came from Hadjin [Turkish: Saimbeyli], which is the town in the interior of Turkey near Adana. Adana is on the, on the Mediterranean. And it is, it is a little inland. It was a mountain village. And my mother came from Sivas, which is ̶  or Sebastia as they call which is a larger city, actually. And do you want to know the way they got here?    01:47 JK: Of course, yes.    01:48 GR: Oh, sure. Well, my, my mother went through the massacres, and she, with her grandmother and her brother and her sister. They did the death march they went from Turkey to Deir ez Zor, which is in, in Syria present. Well, it still was not Syria then. And then her brother died in route. And of course, the atrocities were terrible they were. They kept no fa ̶  food or water and had to improvise as best they could. I remember my mother telling me how they, you know, when the horses make footprints water gathers in there, they had to drink that water to stay alive, you know, to get to, but ultimately, she ended up in in Beirut in an orphanage. Her grandmother, she lost her brother on the death march her grandmother passed away, and her sister and her made it to an orphanage in Beirut. She was in that orphanage for several years, and then was sent to Marseille, France. And from Marseille she immigrated to Havana, Cuba. She worked there, whatever work she could get in through an arranged marriage, it was always in those days, you know, they, they would, they would know somebody and somebody apparently knew my father and mutual friend, you know, they mutually knew each other. So, he went to Havana on in those days, they used to have boats, gambling boats, you know, that used to go to Havana from New York, and he went to Havana on one of the gambling boats to get to meet her. And so they got married in Havana, and I still have the marriage license which is in Spanish [laughs] and, and they and brought her back. And then they settled they lived actually on Corbett Avenue which is where our church is and that was the Armenian ghetto at that time. That was where the biggest concentration of, of Armenians were. And the next best one was the first ward Clinton Street in that area. So that was the way they got here. And, and then apparently, they lived on Corbett avenue for some time. So that was how they got her. Do you want to go any further?    04:45 JK: Yes, of course. I am going back to the villages that your mom lived in. Was there any stories that she ̶  you recall her telling you or how old and how old was she when they had to leave?    04:59 GR: Oh when she, when she went through this?    05:01 JK: Yeah, do you ̶    05:03 GR: Oh she was, she was probably a young girl about eight or eight or ten years old, you know in that area and, and her sister who is Mangooshag's mother, do you know Manooshag Seraydarian? She is my mother's sister her, her mother and my mother were sisters. But um anyway, they there were a lot of atrocities along the way. I mean, the Turks. They, they herded them like animals. They did not give them any food. And some of them who had gold pieces and whatnot, were able to buy favors like, you know, maybe get some food and whatnot. But a lot of them died along the way I mean, in that, in that area and, and of course, hurt. I will step back a step, before she left Sivas, which is the town she came from. The Turks came in they rounded up all the all the men. And first, her father was, was a photographer and a teacher. And so they rounded up the more intelligent ones and they and they shot him in front of their families shot them or hang them. And so before she left, Sivas, she had she they witnessed this is this little kids so you know, every atrocity you could imagine it was, it was just horrible but everybody who has been through that death march tells a different story.    06:58 MR: But it is all the same really.    07:00 GR: Yeah, well, I mean a different way that they were affected. But and as for my father, my father lived in a in Hadjin, Hadjin and Zeytun were the two towns that fought against the Turks.    07:22 MR: Well many towns did, but they were ̶    07:23 GR: Well, the, the main ones, you know. And so it was almost like 100 percent Armenian village. And they knew that these massacres were coming in it was developing over a period of time. So they rounded up all the young boys on seventeen and under, and they snuck them off to Adana and got them on ships and sent them to the United States because they knew they would not ever be get killed, you know.    07:58 MR: And your father was one of them.    08:00 GR: My father was one of them. So he did not actually go through the massacres. But he came through Ellis Island. And he had ̶  he did not know any English. And he had a five-dollar gold piece, English gold piece in his pocket. And that was it. And they had to, you know, then like all the other ones like they, they just made it on their own. I mean, there was no assistance or no welfare or anything like that in those days. And my father tells me this story, how they would go and, and wait in lines for the union bosses to pick who was going to get work that day. And they never picked the Italians or the Jews or the Armenians. It was, you know, and so he said, we finally got tired of standing in line and going hungry and having nothing thing to do. And we went out and started our own businesses or we went to work. Yeah so yeah, that was how my how my father got here.    09:14 MR: George, did your father, your father was a cobbler? Did he know that trade when he came? Or did he learn it?   09:21 GR: Yeah he knew, he knew that trade. But he would not start his own business immediately work for Endicott Johnson, like a lot of the other Armenian immigrants did for a few years so he could get enough money to start his own shoe repair shop, you know, right. And just as your father did with the rugs, right?   09:45 MR: Do you want me to tell?    09:46 JK: Oh yes.    09:46 MR: As we go along, or just wait until ̶   09:49 JK: Do you want to go?    09:50 MR: No, I mean, I, I can ̶    09:52 GR: Yeah, I can go on and ̶  [laughs]    09:55 MR: All right well so my parents were, as I said, born and-both of them were born in Chomaklou. Um, they had an upper village and a lower village, you know. And so they were like, you know, these arranged marriages I think when they were born. Oh god that would be nice for Dicranouhi or something like that you know so they knew for a long time that they would probably get married to each other I guess. But what happened with my, my mom was, was only two years old when ̶  at the beginning of the massacre. And she went ̶  she and my father both went through the entire death march. My mother's parents were killed when she was, she was an orphan at two years of age, and her grandmother who was probably in her forties, you know, raised her and my, my great grandmother had a handicapped son. So I cannot even begin to imagine how that even worked but she had to carry him ̶  he was ̶  he would not walk. So they would walk a distance on the death march and then she would wait there with the other villagers the ̶  my mother would, and then she walked back and get the son put on his back and, and walk forward. I mean, it was just unbelievable kind of deprivation. They all went through the starvation and the lack of water and all of that, you know, and how they survived is just a mystery to me, but my, my father was a twelve years older than my mother. So he went through the same ̶  similar things the whole village was told to evacuate and, and start walking. And she finally ̶  and she went through Syria and different.    12:13 GR: That was-they went through Deir ez Zor, which is a desert.    12:16 MR: Yeah and she ended up in ̶  and my father too ̶  They both ended up in Beirut, Lebanon. And so she, she and my father managed to get through like a grade school education ̶  I would say my mother was very interested in in schoolwork and she, she had a beautiful Armenian penmanship ̶  beautiful, and they were always interested in education in the little village of Chomaklou, you know, would send their kids to America, like, like, like in George's situation. He was a little older. So they sent him to the states ̶      13:08 GR: Yeah my father was seventeen.    13:09 MR: Yeah. And the purpose always was to, if you could get an education fine, if not, then get a job and then send money back to them in order to get a little bit of aid because they had nothing, they really did not have anything but their land or their apartment or whatever. And so that was how they, they ̶   my mother was seventeen when she married my father, and my father had come first to the United States with that idea of, of either getting an education or a job at that point, he got a job. He was an oriental rug repairman. And, but he was a very ambitious person and he learned the trade of rug repairing. And then when he was able many years later after he brought, he brought his family over to the United States and settled them and then he went ̶   was very astute in his rug repairing and really learned the business and he had a boss who was Syrian and happened to like my father and always encouraged him. So eventually my father went off on his own and had his own loft, and not only repaired oriental rugs with expertise but also started a business where he would put an ad in the New York Post, the New York Post, it was existent in those days. I made one now ̶   You can imagine he would put the ad in the paper, highest cash prices paid for your oriental rugs. Okay? And then he would go, they did not have cars then that he could drive, I mean, he was not, did not have a license, he would take a bus or whatever get to wherever this apartment was, he sometimes had to go up four or five floors high. They did not even have many elevators in those buildings. And he would inspect the rugs. And if he felt that he could turn a quick profit, you know, like, a couple hundred dollars or whatever it is. He would buy the rug, bail it while he was there, get it down the stairs somehow. I mean, these are ̶   my father was not a big man. He was like, five, six [5’6”] and you know, not really a heavy man and he would bail the rug and then somehow get it down the stairs and then haul a cab or whatever ̶   However, he was able to do it. And then pretty soon in this little loft that he had at 276 Fifth Avenue where all the other merchants were ̶   he accumulated enough rugs where he was very successful, you know, and, and that was how he got his start.   16:30 GR: You know, an interesting thing about both our fathers came from Ellis Island. And, in fact, there was a wall there and their names are on there. And I think the year that they came through and all that, but my father tells me that, you know, they did not know a word of English and he said, we, we came into Ellis Island, they took us in a room and asked us a whole bunch of questions. And he said I ̶   he said the fellow might as well have been talking to the wall because he said I did not know what he was saying. So he said every question he asked me I said yes. [laughs] And the examiner finally said, well, you are okay, you are okay. Go ahead. And that was, that was how they ̶  and your father probably had a similar experience ̶  coming through Ellis ̶  have you been to Ellis Island ever? You should go sometime.   17:25 JK: I have been on the Staten Island ferry ̶  right and see the Statue of Liberty.   17:32 GR: It is well ̶   they have a museum ̶  exhibit it is very nice now.   17:34 MR: At the other side of the island.   17:39 GR: But anyway, so that was how they got here. And, and you know, they had to make their own way there was they did not have really any help except maybe their friends. In the beginning, the, the men would live together, and like there would be five or six and if they got if one of them had a job, then the rest of would eat ̶  could eat you know? Yeah, that was that kind of thing until they got going where they were they got themselves established enough to be able to support themselves, you know, but they did it usually it was a group situation where the group of would rent an apartment. And of course, there was a lot of funny stories about that. Maybe you do not want to hear those. [laughs]   18:31 JK: So going back to when both of your parents lived in their villages. Do they recall any stories? Before the gen ̶  the massacre had occurred and did they know when they were ̶  had to do the death march walk the death march, march. What was going on? Did they know that?   18:55 MR: The political scene you mean.   18:57 JK: Yeah, and ̶    18:58 MR: My parents did not but I think maybe George's father knew or some ̶  he was older. You know, my mother was only two. So what did she know? And I do not know that her grandmother really knew no, I really do not know.   19:14 GR: No, my father's, my father's family raised horses. And so of course, they, they went out and traded did a lot of trading. So, as a result, they had more of an opportunity to know what was going on politic ̶  politically in the country. And they felt that there was a massacre, you know, when 1896 and then they had won in 1915, the big one, and in 1915, because Hadjin where my father came from was such a remote village. They, they really were able to sort of survive that. And then in 9 ̶  the big battle of Hadjin in 1918, which was three years later with ̶   my father had left by then. But the Turks decided, well, you know, we have had enough of this. We were going to exterminate them and get rid of them. And so 6000 Hagjinses fought. I mean, you know, they had gotten supplies and arms and so forth. And they fought and only thirty-five survived. They were, they were just totally, totally annihilated, you know, by the Turk. So, but before that, my father, I mean, yeah, they did know. Tha ̶  the Turks never really treated them that well. I mean, they were like, second class citizens. They never were never treated as equals. And I think if you saw that movie ̶    20:53 JK: The promise?   20:53 MR: The promise?   20:55 GR: Yeah, you, you could get a feel of it ̶   they were how they were treated. You know, they, they were looked down on. And but they ̶   The church was very ̶   The church was as it, as it has kept Armenians together in this country. It was even more powerful there. I mean, that every village had its churches, and they, they were very devoted about how devout about how they kept their traditions and so forth and so on. So yeah, and I think they did, I am sure even in your father's village, they knew this thing with ̶    21:39 MR: I do not know, he never talked about politics so I do not really know.   21:42 GR: You know, despite what the Turks say, and you know this about, well, they were deportations or, or war refugees and all that. This was an organized plan from the highest sources in the government to exterminate the Armenians. They, they wanted to get rid of them. They did not want them in their country. And by whatever means they had to do it ̶    22:06 MR: Ethnic cleansing. That was what it was, yeah.   22:07 GR: Yeah, yeah. So it was a, it was an organized genocide. It really was. They still do not own up to it. But it was.   22:19 JK: Yes. Before that, before the two massacres occurred. Do you recall any stories from either of your families about what it was like living among the, with the Turkish people? You were saying how it was like, second, they were second class citizens. But anything else that you would like to add?   22:46 MR: They never really, you know.   22:47 GR: Well, we cannot personally tell you how it was.   22:50 JK: Yeah, of course.   22:50 GR: You know we were both born here. And so I do have, I mean, I have done a lot of research on it, and I do it. Papers telling what life and Hadjin was like and maybe I could give you that website. But if I can, you can look it up. It is about sixty-five pages. We were, we were ̶  an organization has done all this research and they tell you their, their medicine their, their folklore, how they did their holidays, you know when so forth. That if you want to really get into that, that might be interesting.   23:31 JK: Yeah of course I would love the see that thank you. And for both of your parents, did they obviously they spoke both Armenian did they also speak Turkish or ̶    23:43 MR: They spoke Turkish. Yes, of course. They spoke Turkish.   23:48 GR: Your father spoke some Arabic.   23:49 MR: Not much, you know, but uh, I am sure enough to get by.   23:54 GR: Now my father's family ̶   because they were in, they were in you know, business. They, they spoke ̶   they had to speak Turkish, Armenian and Arabic was, you know, quite prevalent in that area. But he spoke, he spoke Turkish; they had a dialect very unique to the village of Hadjin and he, he normally, he normally spoke that dialect or he spoke Turkish. He did not speak Armenian, true Armenian, Western Armenian we know what I learned my Armenian from my mother who was you know from Sivas from a city and her father was a teacher and so they I guess you could say that they were just as Spanish there was the Castilian Spanish and there was Catalan and all the other things so that was where I learned my Armenian and I did not know English when I started kindergarten, as many in my generation, you know, did and so I went to kindergarten and after a year or two they put me back. [laughs] Because they said, you know, he was stupid. Well in those days, there was no second language or anything if you did not know English, you know, you were stupid as far as the teachers were concerned. So I ̶   my father was furious and he was going to go down and, and raise the roof with the school and you know, why are you putting my boy back in my mother said, let me handle it. She said, I will take care of it. And all of a sudden she was taking baklava to the teacher make [indistinct] and all that. And lo and behold, they put me back in my class. And but I remember the ̶  it was kind of a pain learning English. I mean a real pain because I had an accent for a while until, you know, I really ̶    26:11 MR: And you mixed Armenian words with English words.   26:13 GR: Yeah I used to mix Armenian and English and of course that would the teacher would you know I want to go [speaking Armenian] you know, the teacher? Where do you want to go? And I think many of us are in that gen ̶  know, you know your uncle Art I guess he knew English better than that I did but, but you know at home my father spoke [the language from Hadjin] which I have a pretty good knowledge of and my mother spoke Armenian. And then the Turkish I learned was because they, when they did not want the kids to understand they spoke Turkish.   26:55 MR: And they swore in Turkish. [laughs]   26:59 GR: Yeah, and it is a phonetic language so it is very easy to pick up. Turkish is very ̶   it is relatively easy language to learn conversational. I do not know about the written because I cannot write it but yeah, so anyway, it was you know, we, we were first generation and that was a ̶   there were a lot of stigmas in those days that have gone away now, you know, they did not accept foreigners quite as readily as they do now and so forth. So yeah, I think but, but the prime focus I think that all of our parents had, and, and I think it is an Armenian thing is get an education. Because my mother used to always say, you know, they can, they can take all your money, they can take everything you have, but they cannot take what you know in your head out, which ̶  once it is in there, it is in there, you know? And so they were very education oriented. And they, wherever possible made sure that their kids got a college education, right?`   28:15 MR: Right.   28:16 GR: And ̶    28:17 MR: And I am, I was very proud of the fact that I was actually the first girl in my, you know, where the village that my parents came from, who settled in New York, that I knew of that even went to college or graduated from college. So, and I would not go away from home. My parents would not allow that. I mean, they did not even want you to go to camp. If it was not right next door, you know. So I went to Hunter College. I was fortunate that I got in, it was a very difficult school in those days to get in and I graduated I became a teacher, an elementary school teacher and loved it taught for a few years of my marriage and then the, the role of the woman in those days was to stay home with your kids once you had your own kids, you know, so, but you the education you use in raising your own children you know and, and so I never felt that that was a waste.   29:30 GR: And, and you know, even in our generation, there was a stigma against the ̶   for against, the immigrants and so forth because I, I encountered it several times like when, when I, I went through SUNY but after that I went to Georgetown. And, and I remember in a lot of interviews, Georgetown did not do this to me, but a lot of the places that I interviewed and it was very competitive. They would say, well, you know, what do you want to, what do you want to do this for? Why do not you be a shoemaker, like your father and so forth? You know, they put you down. And, and I felt that and really hurt, you know, but, but I guess we had a little of what our parents said, we stuck to it. And I went, you know, through Georgetown, and then Columbia and so forth. But education was a very, very important thing in our lives, you know, and we made sure that our kids got at least a college education.   30:44 JK: And growing up in you grew up in Bing-Binghamton and you grew up in New York City ̶  were there are a lot of Armenian people around you?   30:54 GR: Oh yes, yes our for, for one thing we always on the weekends. We always had picnics at State Park. Well, at first it was Ross Park. They used to do it because they did not have cars and so forth. But later on it was State Park, but you were pretty your social life was probably 90 percent with other Armenian kids, you know. And so, you had a lot in common you were very comfortable. The church was sort of the center of all activity, even though we did not have Badarak every week or in fact when I was like ten or twelve we only had Badarak every three months. And But still, you know, it was that was sort of the glue that held us together. And ̶    31:56 MR: Yes, and even in New York City where you know, I did not I as a as a child growing up I probably did not go to church any more frequently than George did even though I had a church you know to go to because you had to sit on a bus or, or a taxi or whatever to get there so I did not really I used to go to church probably on the holidays like a lot of people do now and, and then I did not go regularly to church until I was really able to take public transportation and, and go on my own and then I joined the choir and got more active with the youth and then joined ACYO, you know and, and most of my friends were are of Armenian background, too. And I do not know what else did you want. [laughs]   33:05 GR: Well one thing about the Armenians. I mean, we heard it from our parents, they loved this country. They were, they were like, so thankful that they had the opportunity to come here. And in fact, your father said that he knelt down and kissed the ground remember once and, and they wanted to assimilate even though they wanted to keep their traditions and their religion and everything, they wanted to assimilate, my mother went to, to school to learn English so she could become a citizen and you do not become ̶    33:42 MR: And that was true of our ̶  my parents as well.   33:45 GR: And I think that is one of the problems today is you see, like the Hispanics want to keep their language. They want to speak nothing but Spanish. They do not really want to assimilate and become Americans. But we had a very strong desire to do that. And, and I think it was a plus because it helped us to go further in the society that we had to compete and live in you know.   34:14 JK: And going back to that did your How did they keep like the Armenian traditions while trying to simulate Arme-American ̶    34:23 GR: Because they were they were always, you were always going to somebody's house somebody was coming to your house on Sundays there was always either a picnic or, or a function where they got together so that it was not like you saw Armenian kids once a month or at holidays; it was like this was your part of your life. I mean, you were with them all the time. You see, and they may and you were there that you made friends and even as you as we want ̶  went on into school and got you know, friends of all French whatever they are and everything. We still kept our ties. But we did not. But we did not like hold ourselves out as, as, as different. We tried to be like everybody. And I think that helped us that was a plus, you know. So that that is I think the way that they kept them together is probably the church number one, and then social activities. You know, by social activities, I mean, families came and went together. They did things together.   35:42 MR: But they also mingled with other non-Armenians, they mingled.   35:49 GR: Oh, yeah, well, they tried to assimilate. But there was language barrier, you know, they ̶    35:54 MR: Tried to assimilate without losing their Armenian heritage. They always were even in a big city, my parents were always very proud of, of who they were and where they came from, and the values that they had as Armenian Americans was always with them until the day they died. They were like that, but, you know, just as his parents went to English school to learn, you know, in the evenings, my mother used to go in the evenings ̶    36:30 GR: Yeah they really made an effort. They wanted to ̶    36:32 MR: They wanted very much to become citizens. And they were very proud of that, you know, and, and they always, were very, very grateful that they had the opportunity to be an American citizen to come to this country. And they said, you have no idea of ̶    36:54 GR: The fact that they were not living persecution every day.   36:57 MR: That is right, you know.   36:59 GR: You know.   37:00 MR: They always were very grateful to be here.   37:04 GR: And so I think, you know, it is like with our kids and, and so forth as the generations go the melting pot, you know, they, they get more and more but, but still, I think that Armenians have pretty much kept their, their traditions and they were all you know, there, there are certain things that are, that are sacred and we have kept most of it.   37:30 MR: We have but you know, we were only ̶  our parents were born overseas. So what are we first generation second generation, but as there was more and more intermarriage, you know, we, we noticed that the traditions are getting less and less, you know, and that was too bad. I hope that does not happen [indistinct] eventually.   37:53 GR: Yeah, you know they eventually they do not speak the language which is pretty sad because I think it is, it is good to have a second language. It is actually a ̶  an advantage. And, and because Armenian was my first language I still a lot of times I think in Armenian and I mostly pray in Armenian because that is how I learned to pray you know, but there is and every language has things that are very difficult to translate. It is not the same thing once you translate it you know? So you get the advantage of both really.   38:45 JK: And did you guys both know how to read and write Armenian or just speak?   38:49 MR: Well George did not have that advantage ̶    38:53 GR: We did not have the advantage of an Armenian school here. We never had that.   38:58 MR: They had an Armenian school you know, where they would have somebody come from some organization and, and teach Armenian but you know, I learned the alphabet and I am sure that if I really religiously read frequently I would have retained I have not read. I know the alphabet but I have not really forwarded that at all, you know, but I, I could easily go back and learn and but I speak it fluently and understand it very well.   39:39 JK: And do your children or and your grandchildren do they know Armenian or ̶    39:44 MR: Our ̶  my son is fluent in Armenian and then he was we spoke we had decided that we were going to teach our kids Armenian as their first language. And so we did that faithfully with Gary and then he married ̶    40:01 GR: Well and the Gary he married a first-generation ̶    40:04 MR: And then he married a first-generation girl so he heard Armenian being spoken all the time so he really can, in fact he has even taught himself how to read and write but Vivian can understand some of it but she does not really ̶  you know it is hard when, when like our son was three years old and going on to nursery school then Natalie I mean Vivian was born and you, you start switching to the English I was not able to do it as well.   40:40 GR: Yeah but see Gary's-both of Gary's boys are like they are acolytes they serve on the altar ̶    40:46 MR: Oh yeah we have kept out Armenian traditions.   40:48 GR: And they have stayed close and in fact their younger, their younger one they adopted from Armenia. The, the first one, our first grandson is, is theirs and the other one they went to Armenia and adopted him. He looks just like us you would not tell the difference. [laughs] But it is very interesting and he is ̶  oh he is just great I mean he is ̶    41:17 MR: Seventeen now.   41:18 GR: Yeah soccer player and everything just good now Viv-and Vivian has-Gar-so Gary has two boys and Vivian has a daughter and a son. The daughter just graduated from Boston College last year the son is a junior at Fairfield.   41:38 MR: University.   41:39 GR: So I do not know how far you want to go with this but ̶    41:46 MR: Our daughter became an Orthodontist like her father and so you know we're very proud of our children and grandchildren.   41:58 Yes, I see. So going back to raising your family earlier on ̶  what was it important for you to teach them the Armenian culture like ̶    42:09 MR: Well it was natural.   42:11 JK: Natural.   42:11 MR: It was always very natural.  You know, I mean.   42:14 GR: And like you were, when there was church, we were expected to go, it was not. I mean, they did not say do you want to go to church to today.   42:23 MR: No and, and we raise our children with the church, I mean, we they, they always went to church whenever we had church, and now.   42:34 GR: Like our generation we all sung in the church choir, because you were expected to ̶   42:41 MR: Well, you knew they needed you. [laughs]   42:44 GR: Not it was it was expected and ̶     42:49 MR: And Vivian our daughter, our son married in Armenian and Ar-American and our daughter married and Armenian American as well. So they, have been able to keep more of the Armenian traditions because, you know, it is, it is they are around Armenians a lot, but they are also around non Armenians too. So I do not know, I do not know how to say that.   43:20 GR: Well, and I, I think there is something to be said about if you marry someone that has that you have a lot in common with, there is a lot better chances that that marriage is going to work out. If you are like night and day. You do not really like we can make jokes about each other sometimes. About our fe ̶ some Armenian things and because I mean, she is no different than me. You do not get offended. But if there is a big difference, sometimes they do not understand where you are coming from and you do not understand where they are coming from, you know?   44:05 JK: And how did you, you two meet it and before I get in ̶  before you get into that, do you know you wanted to marry another Armenian or ̶   44:14 MR: Well, it was sort of expected you know, and in our case it worked out but I think that ̶   44:26 GR: Well, we met we met in a very, it was kind of bizarre. I was at Georgetown ̶   44:35 MR: Dental school.   44:36 GR: Yeah in dental school and also in a Navy program.   44:39 MR: Right.    44:40 GR: And I, I served five years in the Navy after my education but anyway because there was the feeling that I always wanted to go to church if it was available. I was going to the when every opportunity I had ̶  I went to the Armenian church in Washington, you know, and at that time, they did not even have a church building. It was in a basement where they had an altar and the priest used to priest used to come every week and so forth. So her brother was in the Navy, and he was stationed in Washington. And so he used to come to church. [laughs] So, so we did not really know each other, meet each other, particularly but the church organist had a party and invited all the younger people. And so I met her brother, and got to know him pretty well and we became pretty good friends. So, one weekend, he said, “Why do not you come and I will show you?” I did not know New York City that well, he said, “Why do not you come to New York City?” And, and he said, “We will go out” and he said, “I will get a couple of dates and you know, and so forth and so on.” So, so we, we took the train, we went to New York, and he said, “Well, I want to go home and clean up before we go out.” So we went to her house, and, and I met her then that was the first time I met her. And so he said, well, I am ready. Let us go. And I said, “You know, I got a stomachache. I think I am going to, I think I am going to stay here and just visit with your family.”    46:27 MR: I was seventeen.    46:29 GR: I wanted to get to know her better.   46:31 MR: And George is six and a half years older than me. And so I was only seventeen and a freshman in college. And so Harry, my brother did not have any thoughts even [laughs] see to me. How does this kid's sister five years or six years is a lot a big difference at that stage in your life. And but we got to know each other and he would ̶   46:59 Yeah, we dated on and off for four years till you finished college.   47:03 Well he did not come frequently. So if he came once in the summer, then he had asked me to hold New Year's Eve for them or something, you know.   47:13 GR: So then I did my internship in the Navy. And so they told me that they would, they would send me to California, you know, to the Naval Hospital there. And one of my friends was going to go to the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia. So I, I wanted to be where I could get to see her. So we got the Navy to agree to let me take his slot in Philadelphia and he would go to California.   47:49 JK: Oh my goodness.   47:50 MR: You were crazy [laughs] I would have gone to California.   47:58 GR: Anyway, that, that was the way we met. And it was not it was not arranged or anything like that, like our parents.    48:04 MR: No. And it was not. I mean, I was determined to finish college. So, I mean, that was four years that we were just seeing each other occasionally, but we ̶   48:16 GR: Yeah but I was in the Navy then we got married.    48:21 MR: And then when he got his internship in Philadelphia, and he was coming frequently to the house and you know, then we really got much more serious.   48:32 GR: Okay, let us let her go on with the questions.   48:34 JK: Oh yeah ̶  and so going back to Armenian culture. What do you think is the most important things about Armenia that really make us strong and what helped Armenian people survive?   48:51 GR: I think the cul ̶  well, I think that is an easy one. I think the culture is very, very much focused around the church and the traditions.   49:00 MR: And family, and family.   49:03 GR: Family and the traditions of the church, you know. And I know they get ̶  where I am from, I have some accounts of what life was like when in my father's village, it was pretty much oriented around, around their, around the church and, and the traditions of the church and so forth in the way they did holidays and so forth. And I would say probably, again, the church has always been the glue of keeping the Armenian people together.   49:41 MR: You have to understand that we did not have TV or anything, and their entertainment was getting together with each other and in nice weather, it would be even in New York City, a big city, we would go to Van Cortlandt Park, and have picnics, you know, occasionally not as frequently as George did here in Binghamton. But ̶   50:03 GR: Well they did, they did a lot of things like where the parents would come together, the kids would get up and say poems or they would sing, and you know, it was very much family-oriented. And so I guess maybe does that answer your question?   50:21 JK: Yes, of course. And what about the do you think the language and the homeland are just as important as the church or a little less?   50:31 MR: Now? You mean now?    50:33 JK: Yeah.   50:34 GR: You mean, Armenia now? All right. I think you have to understand that Armenia was under Soviet rule for forty years. And in this in the communists, outlawed churches, I mean, they closed all the churches down. They made them museums. The Armenian Church survived because they have been in Etchmiadzin for, for ̶   51:03 MR: Many centuries since seven hundred or six hundred.   51:06 GR: So, so the, the Russians sort of took an attitude, well, we are not going to, we are not going to help you, we are not going to do anything to help you. But we will not do anything to hurt you as long as you stay in line, you know, if you do anything against us, we will get rid of you. So, so Etchmiadzin was able to survive very well. And because we went there in (19)72, when it was under Soviet when it was Soviet Armenia, and we asked, my host was another doctor, who was a member of the Russian politburo, the communist politburo, you know, so we said, well, we would like to meet the [indistinct]. And he knew the [indistinct]. He said, I do not go to church. But he said, I will take you there and so forth. So as a result of that, I think religion got very much diluted. I do not think that there is the well there still is they are still very devoted to their churches, but ̶   52:17 MR: Well not ̶  they are devoted to the churches, but it is just like in ̶   52:23 GR: But maybe it is not as intense as it was.   52:27 JK: And have you ever been to the villages that your parents grew up in?   52:32 MR: No, unfortunately, we, we only went to Armenia and Lebanon. We tried when our kids were young when they were ten and, and eight or something like that. We went to Beirut, Lebanon ̶   52:48 GR: Well we went to Istanbul first ̶   52:50 MR: Where yeah where ̶   52:51 GR: Because her father was in the wrong business. And he was doing business there. You know that? Yeah. And then from Istanbul, we went to Beirut, because Beirut was kind of the Armenian. I think ̶   53:03 MR: Where they all ̶  many of them had settled. Yeah. And where my parents got married from, you know, and so we did that. And then we went to Armenia for a few days. And it was, as George said, it was under Soviet rule. So ̶     53:20 GR: Yeah, I had an invitation to lecture in their, at their medical school. So it was, you know, it was sanctioned by the government, but you always had to, had to be with somebody, you would not go off on your own. And, in fact, this is a funny story. We stayed in the hotel Armenia, and they had a Russian person on every floor. They spoke Armenian very well. But they had a Russian woman usually. And we were going out with some friends and they said, “Well, you know, you can leave the kids.” They were like ten and twelve there.   54:00 MR: We would never do it today but we did it then.   54:03 GR: Yeah you can leave and we will look after them. So, we, we came back. And we said to her, well, you know, how di ̶  how were the children's? Awful! [laughs] We said what happened, you know, apparently, all the rooms were bugged. You know, so they heard all this jusch-jusch-jusch up in the ceiling. So Gary gets on a chair and he gets pfffftttt [laughs] they did not take that too kindly.   54:37 JK: Oh my goodness that is amazing wow.    54:40 GR: So they were under a very totalitarian regime for forty years and it affected everything you know, I mean, that youth grew up in that environment so.   54:53 MR: As far as the language is concerned, there is Eastern dialect and in the Armenian language in Russia they now they speak the eastern dialect. And we ̶     55:07 GR: Speak Western ̶     55:08 MR: Speak the western dialect it is very difficult for those of us who speak the Western dialect like to really understand a lot of the words that so we do not really communicate that well.   55:21 GR: And the church or courses neither read has what they call[indistinct] ̶  It has its own language.   55:27 MR: The old language, the old ̶   55:28 GR: Which even we do not understand.   55:31 MR: Well, we do now because, you know, go to church frequently, but ̶   55:36 GR: Excuse me.   55:38 JK: Okay. And just one more question. How would you guys identify yourself as Armenian American or American Armenian?   55:47 MR & GR: American-Armenian.   55:49 MR: For sure. We are American of Armenian descent. We are very proud of our American and Armenian heritage, you know.   56:01 GR: You know, it is Armenian, it is our heritage, and we hope that our kids will remember their heritage. I mean, we are all Americans, of course, and that is our primary loyalty.   56:11 MR: And our grandchildren all of them, all four of them are proud of their Armenian heritage but, you know, I do not know whether how much of this will linger on in future generations ̶   56:23 GR: I do not think they will ever lose the taste for the foods.   56:26 MR: Yeah, that is for sure.   56:29 JK: Yes, they are the best.   56:30 MR: But they are all proud of their heritage.   56:33 GR: And we are.   56:36 JK: Of course. And is there anything else you would like to add to this interview or anything he would want to mention?   56:44 GR: What is that Marion?   56:44 MR: Is there anything else that you would like to mention or for this interview? She is almost through.   56:51 GR: Well, I think that probably as a whole just as, as our parents, you know, came here with actually no money. No, they did not know the language and everything. But they had the drive to get ahead. And I think they put that into their kids because most of the kids have, have, you know, been become very successful in American society, as you know, from all the I mean, we have a lot of Armenians in, in very important places in this country. So I think that our desire is that you know, our, our kids keep that same initiative.   57:42 JK: Yes.   57:44 MR: And-and instill the love of education in their children and you know ̶   57:51 GR: To try, to try to do better, you know, try to do your best and try to do better and, and not, not rely on government to take care of us. We want to take care of ourselves, you know, so.   58:09 JK: Of course. All right. Well, thank you so much.    58:12 MR: You are very welcome.   (End of Interview) Keywords Armenians; Armenian church; Family; Language; Genocide; Culture; Assimilation Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marion and Dr. George Rejebian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fbbd2b25f22b1619078049700acde8d2.mp3 31b8f68951ba677d60d82558db7c8533 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. 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Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2/15/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 20:47 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Mark Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen Date of interview: 14 February 2019 Interview Setting: Vestal, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 JK: My name is Jacqueline Kachadourian and I am interviewing for the Armenian Oral History Project for Binghamton University. Today is February 14 2019. I am interviewing Mark Kachadourian. What is your name? And where are you from? 00:25 MK: My name is Mark Kachadourian and I am from Vestal, New York. 00:34 JK: Tell us about your parents. What are they? Are they Armenian? Both Armenian? 00:45 MK: Yes, my both my parents are both Armenian. Um, my father's name is Henry Kachadourian and, and my mother's maiden name is Victoria Kerbeckian. 01:02 JK: And where are they from? 01:06 MK: My dad was born here in Binghamton, New York. And my mom was born in ̶ when she was younger, she grew up in Queens, New York um, and later moved to Philadelphia, at a young age. 01:28 JK: On both sides of your family or their median in both your parents’ side? 01:34 MK: Yes. Both their parents were Armenian as well. 01:41 JK: And where are they from? 01:44 MK: That, um, I have written down, I do not have it off the top of my head. 01:52 JK: Are they from Armenia? Or ̶ are from the United States? 02:02 MK: No, they were born, um, I a portion of what is known today is Turkey and part of it and the other is in Armenia. So as to specific locations I have written down I do not have it with me here. 02:22 JK: And why is the ̶ do you know what year they left Armenia? 02:29 MK: They left during the Turkish massacre. A number of their ̶ they escaped. But a lot of their family members were killed. So they were the ones that were able to escape. 02:44 JK: Do you recall any stories from that? 02:50 MK: Yes, I remember. My great grandmother, um escaped with my grandmother. When my grandmother was a baby, and there was a family that hit my grandmother in the garbage can so the Turks will not be able to find her. And then from my dad's side, my grandfather escaped by swimming, you know, in a river to escape ̶ being killed from the Turks. I remember him telling me those stories. 03:31 JK: From your father from your grandfather telling you 03:35 MK: From my grandfather telling me. 03:38 JK: So he was there, he personally escaped. 03:41 MK: Yes. 03:44 JK: And do you know or remember how they came to America? 03:48 MK: No, I think my grandmother and ̶ get up got this written down. And, you know, as I get older, my memory is not as good as it used to be. But I have got it written down. And I do not have that literature in front of me. But, um, my grandmother on my mom's side, it's my recollection, she came through Cuba, and, um, and my recollection with my grandmother on my father's side. She may have camped through Montreal, Canada, 04:28 JK: And ended up ̶ from Binghamton or other places in the United States. 04:35 MK: She may have wound up in the New England area and met my grandfather who I think was in this area. And so that was how they happened to settled in this area. But I am not ̶ Again, I have got it written down but that is my recollection off the top of my head. 04:55 JK: Did they tell you any other stories about living in Armenia before the genocide? 05:09 MK: You know, just to my great grandmother that all her children were killed except my grandmother. Um, and that's all I could remember, you know, as a child. 05:26 JK: Did they tell you like, before what it was like in Armenia? 05:33 MK: No, I, you know, it is not a subject I think they, you know, it was like it was a tragedy for them. So with most people, they, um, you know, I guess it is like soldiers that go to war, they just, you know, they come back and, you know, they really try to move on with their lives. And, you know, and do not dwell on the past. And, you know, it was a terrible time and a terrible experience, which, you know, they did not talk much about. 06:06 JK: Then, did they ever get returned back to Armenia? 06:10 MK: No. I do not ̶ Yes, I think my grandfather and I um, I cannot recollect you're going to have to talk to other members of my family. I know. My aunts and my aunt and uncle from my father's side, um, went to Armenia recently and I am not sure if they went back around in the mid to late (19)70s and may have taken my grandparents some um, that I do not have first-hand knowledge of this far as my mom's side. I do not think they ever went back, no. 06:59 JK: Okay, so going through your childhood, did you ever go to Armenian language school or learn Armenian or Bible school? 07:09 MK: Um, the church we went to had Sunday school which I attended and did have language school again you know, it is a number of years ago, but Armenian was the first language we spoke before actually before we spoke English my grandparents or great grandparents you know, they spoke Armenian and you know we were taught Armenian and then we were able to communicate with them and Armenian. 07:41 JK: Can you read and write Armenian? 07:43 MK: No, I cannot read and write Armenian but I could speak it and understand it. 07:51 JK: [inaudible] 07:51 MK: Pretty much so yes, you know, I ̶ it is ̶ of course English is my another language, but I could get I know enough to get by. 08:03 JK: And, did you have any siblings growing up? 08:08 MK: Yes, I did have one sister growing up. 08:11 JK: And what is her name? And how old is she? 08:15 MK: Um, her name is Corrine. And, um, I do not think I am at liberty to give her age. 08:24 JK: What's the age difference between you two? 08:31 MK: Um, I think it is exactly eleven months. 08:37 JK: And did she learn Armenian too? Or ̶ 08:40 MK: Yes, she, you know, along with me. We both speak and understand it. And however again, we do not write or read. I mean, it is ̶ 08:53 JK: And when you were a kid, where did you grow up? 09:00 MK: As a child ̶ they grew up ̶ Originally I was born in Binghamton and stayed in the Binghamton area until I was about maybe three or four and then I attended first kindergarten in Stamford, Connecticut. And then I attended first grade in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And then we move to back to Binghamton and then attended public schools and graduated high school in Binghamton, New York. 09:39 JK: Do you recall the Armenian communities in Connecticut or Philadelphia? 09:46 MK: I do recall Armenian communities in Philadelphia, vaguely but not in Connecticut. I was really too young to remember that. 10:00 JK: Was it bigger than the community in Binghamton today? 10:05 MK: Yes, it was. You know, Philadelphia is a metropolitan area. So of course, they had larger Armenian community and the community was very active in the church. And now and I remember attending church and Easter's, Easter Sunday, everybody would be dressed up. Um, so yeah, I do remember going to church in Philadelphia, 10:33 JK: Did you attend church regularly, as a kid? 10:38 MK: As a child, growing up, I would say yes. 10:44 JK: And when you came back to Binghamton, was there a big Armenian community or was it significantly smaller? 10:54 MK: It was significantly smaller than Philadelphia, but there was an Armenian community. However, as I got older, the, um, the parishioners of the church got older, and eventually many of them passed away and, um and a lot of the younger people moved away. So the church attendance steadily declined. And, um, you know, as a result of the older parishioners passing away and the younger ones moving away, 11:26 JK: And growing up, did you have any Armenian friends over there, mostly non Armenian? 11:36 MK: Um, I had a couple of Armenian friends but mostly non Armenian, you know. 11:43 JK: And the non-Armenians knew about Armenia or anything? 11:48 MK: Yes, they were. Yes. They were very aware of it. And, you know, um, yes, they were. 11:59 JK: So when you attended high school in Binghamton, did they ̶ was there a lot of Armenians in the school or no? 12:08 MK: No, I think there was one or two others, but no, that was it. 12:14 JK: And would you hang out with them and in school or only in church? 12:19 MK: Mostly at church. 12:28 JK: And so, did you ever attend any camps that would relate to the Armenian community? Or was it just Sunday school and church? 12:42 MK: Just Sunday school and church. However, growing up, we did attend, um, you know, the Armenian community in Philadelphia would have throughout the years, New Year's Eve dance either in Philadelphia or Atlantic City. Growing up for you know, either one, we were in junior high score high school, we would attend those dances with my parents. 13:11 JK: And they had a bigger Armenian community. Those ̶ 13:15 MK: Yeah, those dances drew or get togethers drew from the communities of North Jersey, and Philadelphia in the New York City area. So they were well attended and often sold out. 13:32 JK: Did they ever have any events like that in the Binghamton area? 13:38 MK: Not really, I mean, there were a few years where they try to have Armenian dances and, you know, initially there was a lot of enthusiasm, but, um, but later on, it was hard to keep it going and getting heavy attendance. So they eventually, you know, canceled those. But growing up after high school and going into college, they had some dances in North Jersey or get togethers in North Jersey, where young professionals or young Armenians would get together, there will be dances or we can get togethers, which I attended a few times. 14:21 JK: And what were some consistent cultural themes within the Armenian community? When you were growing up, what type of food or events ̶ 14:37 MK: Um, types of food you know, there were different types of food, ethnic foods. The most common I guess, that the general public is aware of is like pilav or shish kabobs and often look forward to those and, um, and something called lahmacun which is an Armenian type pizza, but instead of cheese and tomato sauce, it would be made with pink something along the lines of ground meat on a flat breath. And also, you know, from a cultural standpoint, you know, we were, I do not know it was in, I do not know if it was instilled in us but I always believe that due to the sacrifices that our grandparents or great grandparents went through, that it was important to keep the Armenian culture alive. And, you know, as part of that, you know, my goal was to marry an Armenian and have Armenian children. 15:41 JK: So it was important for you to marry in Armenian? 15:45 MK: Yes. 15:46 JK: Was that instilled by your parents, or you? 15:50 MK: I think I do not think they ever outright came out and said that, but I just, you know, having experienced or having seen what my net seen, but having been told what my ancestors at sacrifice, I think it was the least I could do to preserve our culture. 16:15 JK: Have you ever traveled to Armenia or Turkey? 16:18 MK: No. 16:19 JK: Would you ever plan to go to Armenia? 16:23 MK: I am not sure I, you know, I have thought about it. No, I, I am not sure. I had have thought about it, but I am not sure. 16:41 JK: Do you think there is differences between the Armenians who came to America and the people that are means stayed in Armenia? 16:51 MK: Oh, um, that I do not have the knowledge to comment on that. I do not, I do not. I mean, America's to me is the greatest country in the world. And we were very fortunate to be living in this country. And but I cannot I do not have enough knowledge or first-hand knowledge to come make, you know, to form an opinion on it. 17:14 JK: And what would you say you identify as your home? And ̶ 17:21 MK: I am American first. And I consider America my homeland. And, you know, but I have got Armenian heritage. So ̶ 17:33 JK: Do you attend church regularly today? 17:36 MK: I try to, because of our population decrease? You know, the church, we do not have regular services. So we do have visiting priest and, um, and I tried to attend when, when there are services. 17:57 JK: And how would you define Armenia or to be Armenian? 18:04 MK: To be Armenian is to be part of a culture that has suffered in its history, but has made great progress and contributed to the various countries that Armenians have settled in, for example, I will just try to go through some examples that I am aware of is like their Armenians who have settled in France. And one of those is Alain Prost [Alain Marie Pascal Prost], who is a world championship Formula One driver who has won CIF, multiple Formula One championships, and he is from Armenian heritage. And so he was able to go to a different country and succeed. Another one is, if you go down the list like Kirk Kerkorian, former owner, founder MGM Grand casinos, and theaters, and he was very successful in the business world, and he came to the United States and settled you know, and there are athletes as well, you know, former baseball players, tennis players, such as Andre Agassi, who were able to succeed in in the new homelands that they settled in. 19:22 JK: Then, what do you think is important to the Armenian culture, the language the church? What do you think? 19:31 MK: I think it is their faith in the church. You know, I think it is their faith and their beliefs and, you know, and, and I think their beliefs are driving force in the way they live their daily lives. And as a result, I think you will see many results and um, Armenians being driven to succeed. So in both the business world and, and I think they also contribute to the community as well. Another one of those was Alex Manoogian, who's whose family has given back to the Armenian community and he was very successful in the business world. And I think their faith drives them and it's a great contributor is it leads to their success and other facets of their lives. 20:31 JK: Is there anything else you want to add? 20:37 MK: No, I cannot think of anything else. At this point. I think you covered everything pretty well. Okay. 20:43 JK: Thank you. 20:45 MK: You are welcome. Have a good day. (End of Interview) Keywords Armenian; Armenia; Armenians; Turkey; Binghamton; Philadelphia; Family; Armenian community; Armenian Church; Dances; Food; Culture. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mark Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d7e94a3071777684d0eb0bfa99af75d4.mp3 8a994229d63f53f87e811a60fa3fa103 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/808c42498383c5166cefd0b00e9adf10.jpg 046639a5421397e294b8330f956a7d17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-02-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sue Castaldo Year of Graduation 1963 Biographical Text Sue is a retired small business owner. She managed a successful retail candy business, “Candy in Bloom,” in Phoenix for 25 years. Prior to that she worked in customer service for Bank of America in Phoenix. She earned an MBA from Adelphi University in 1983. She also worked as a teacher in Vestal Schools and taught adults in Illinois. She has four children. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in small business; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni in Library Science; Harpur College – Alumni from Mechanicville, New York; Harpur College – Alumni of Italian descent Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sue Castaldo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Castaldo, Sue ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Sue is a retired small business owner. She managed a successful retail candy business, “Candy in Bloom,” in Phoenix for 25 years. Prior to that she worked in customer service for Bank of America in Phoenix. She earned an MBA from Adelphi University in 1983. She also worked as a teacher in Vestal Schools and taught adults in Illinois. She has four children. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-02-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sue Castaldo.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-02-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 49:24 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/61faf5adf2056a1ced09017b71a6f01e.mp3 5dbb208b0b28b1915ea19412d193e5d8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e85ad2453c346fda2314bc68a0625e20.jpg ae8a1b6e44333c50901140cc497e4250 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-02-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Harold Magalnick Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Dr. Harold Magalnick is a pediatrician in the Phoenix area. He is the co-owner of Pediatrix with his son, Dr. Michael Magalnick. He is a medical consultant for several school districts in Phoenix. He is a board member of Arizona’s Children Association. He is on staff with Phoenix Children’s Hospital. As a biology major at Harpur College, he worked at a Binghamton hospital for the mentally ill and attributes his sense of service to this formative experience. After graduating from Harpur, he completed his MD, cum laude, from SUNY Downstate. He served in the U.S. Navy as a staff pediatrician. He has an interest in special needs patients and school health. He has been involved in many community projects, including Make-A-Wish Arizona for more than 30 years. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medicine; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni who are pediatricians; Harpur College-Alumni who served in the U.S. Navy; Harpur College – Alumni in community service Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harold Magalnick Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Magalnick, Harold ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Harold Magalnick is a pediatrician in the Phoenix area. He is the co-owner of Pediatrix with his son, Dr. Michael Magalnick. He is a medical consultant for several school districts in Phoenix. He is a board member of Arizona’s Children Association. He is on staff with Phoenix Children’s Hospital. As a biology major at Harpur College, he worked at a Binghamton hospital for the mentally ill and attributes his sense of service to this formative experience. After graduating from Harpur, he completed his MD, cum laude, from SUNY Downstate. He served in the U.S. Navy as a staff pediatrician. He has an interest in special needs patients and school health. He has been involved in many community projects, including Make-A-Wish Arizona for more than 30 years. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-02-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Harold Magalnick.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-02-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 43:47 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/caa543c05169d9bdab41084b0b5b7e6e.mp3 fe72dd8dd104914af745b8e6a8fb8a37 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-03-01 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paula Baxter Year of Graduation 1975 Biographical Text Paula is a practicing design historian. She is the author of three books on Native American jewelry, along with numerous magazine articles on American Indian arts and design. Before that, she was a professor in the humanities at Berkeley College in Westchester County, New York. Previously she worked as an art librarian and curator at the New York Public Library for 22 years. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni in Library Science; Harpur College – Alumni in Art & Design. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Paula Baxter Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 1 March 2019 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Now we are live. PB: 00:02 Okay. Hi, I am Paula Baxter. I graduated from Binghamton in 1975 I stayed on for two more years and got a master's in 1977. We are sitting in my backyard in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I am at this point, retired from the New York Public Library, but I am also a former adjunct professor and a professional writer, and I am working on the magnum opus of my career at this moment. I am the daughter of a man who took a long time to become a college professor. My dad was in World War Two. He was one of those 16-year-old who lied about his age and went off, and he spent three years in the South Pacific. He came home, he went to NYU on the GI Bill, and he first worked as a liquor salesman, but he wanted to teach first high school and then college. This meant my childhood involved a lot of moving around, and we finally ended up by junior high school in Oneonta, New York, upstate, where he was a professor of Spanish at the college here at Oneonta State. He did not have his PhD, however, he had a master's from University of New Mexico, where we lived for a couple years in the early (19)60s. And he very slowly- he liked to joke that he was the world's longest running PhD candidate, but there were many more, and he went to Binghamton. And so, Binghamton was firmly lodged in my mind as a place to go. I did; however, I was the only child I did not like Oneonta to grow up in. I did not have a good time. There was illness in my family. Only child students were very cliquey and laugh at me now, but one of the reasons why I wanted to go to Binghamton was that none of my classmates in high school whatsoever, planned to go to Binghamton. And when you ask these kids why, they said, too many drugs. So luckily for me, I ignored them and went to Binghamton and became a real person. IG: 02:15 Okay, so that is wonderful, a wonderful introduction. We will explore how you became a real person in Binghamton. Okay, so what were some of your first impressions of the college, Harpur College, and when did you arrive there? PB: 02:39 Yeah, I arrived in January of 1973 I had graduated a semester early from high school, and Binghamton had accepted me, but they had deferred me for a year, and this is very embarrassing, but I could not pass 11th grade math. I blame this inability to do math entirely on the fact that I moved around a lot as a kid, and every time I arrived in a new school system, they were doing a different form of math. They were very sympathetic at Binghamton because my English, my language and my history grades were top of the line, high region scores also, but that poor old math problem dragged my GPA down, so they had me go to Oneonta State for a year, where I did very well and got my feet, let us say, and arrived at Binghamton in January, 1973 and my first impression walking through the Student Union and smelling the pot. [laughter] IG: 03:41 That is a great that is a great sensory image. And so how did you respond to that? Did you- PB: 03:50 Did not bother me in the slightest. I was assigned to it this time. It was pretty new College in the Woods for my dorm residents, and the dorms were nice. They were new and fun, and I did not have the world's greatest roommates, but that all got sorted out initially, and I was overwhelmed. It was huge. And the first thing that came in very strongly to me is that I for the first time in my life being a sheltered Wasp who received her letter from the DAR at age 18. I was a minority, because a large majority of the students there were from down state, New York or the Metro New York area, and they were Jewish, and so here I was a little Wasp girl in the middle of this large college he had a kosher kitchen in the student union, which I found rather amazing, and you kind of could not miss the ambient tea. But you know what? It turned out to be wonderful. And I credit Binghamton for teaching me how to enjoy and coexist and live with diversity. And there were plenty of other upstate students there, somehow, we all found each other. And what was a very fascinating thing is that we integrated well into our fellow students’ lifestyles. And many times, when we made buddies, a couple of us would be upstate non-Jews, and then we would have one or two Jews in our in our little group. IG: 05:20 So, but the diversity was largely upstate, downstate Jewish- PB: 05:25 Right at this time, there was very small black--I did know a few black students and very small Asian. I knew one, and ironically, that was not unlike Oneonta, where I went to high school with no black, or I went to high school with no ethnic students at all, and there were three Jewish families in town, so I had had a very sheltered existence in terms of the world at Oneonta get to Binghamton, and it is a whole other ball game. IG: 05:57 So how do you remember, what are your first impression of the campus physically? I mean, did you, I mean, you are from upstate New York, so- PB: 06:09 It was much bigger than Oneonta. The architecture was very diverse, which I found interesting. At Binghamton, things were built at different times. As I said, I went into new dorms, but they had an older residential area called Dickerson, and there were lots of different campus buildings that were all architecturally different. It was a hodgepodge. There were nice outdoor sculptures, and there was a quad, and there was the library, which I gravitated to at once because I lived at my library in Oneonta, at the town library, which was a nice old library. IG: 06:47 Can you describe the library for us in the early (19)70s? What was that like? PB: 06:53 I am trying to remember. It was not as it is now. It was largely floor by floor on a lateral rectangular layout, but there were some underground areas that were reached by bridges, and the art library was down in an underground part of the library that had its own spaces, shared with the music division. And so architecturally was interesting, a little foreign. You have to remember, this is the pre computer age. The only machinery we had there were microfilm machines and the early photocopiers, which always seemed to break down every five minutes. IG: 07:34 But you had slides. I mean, we will talk [crosstalk] we will talk about that. And was the art museum- PB: 07:44 That was active. It was over in the building. It was on the quad. I think I cannot remember what they called the building. There are things there I am stubbornly forgetting. But it had the large statue of Pegasus on it, which was a big joke about Pegasus. And we shared quarters. The art department was there. The first thing I have to tell you, however, is I did not go right to the art department. I came in in (19)73 planning to be an archeologist. So, I was an anthropology major. And I really do not they were in separate buildings, and I do not remember much about them, except for the physical Anthro lab. IG: 08:21 What drew you to archeology? PB: 08:24 Okay, this is an interesting story. It was Native American. I wanted to be at that time Binghamton's degree was called the anthropology of the North American Indian. I wanted to be a field archeologist. I did my field work in my first at the end of my first year in Binghamton, and we discovered that I could not work in the field. I had a million allergies, and I was a bug magnet, and they would and we, there might be 25 of us on the dig, and none of them would get bit, and I would be bit to the point that I was bloody. The professors, the field supervisors, they told me, do not shower, do not use soap, do not use shampoo. I did all those things, and at the end of the term, they said to me, “You just cannot do field work.” And I felt like my heart was broken, but-but because they were intellectually astute at Binghamton and the professors in anthropology, not one of whom do I remember their names, by the way, but they were good. They recommended I look at the Art History program, and I did, and I was welcomed in. And the professors were top of the line. They were all refugees from Ivy League, and many of them left after I finished my master's, to go back to Ivy League, and that is what I did. I ended up taking an art history BA and MA. IG: 09:52 And what drew you to Native American culture? PB: 09:59 We had a Native American in our family that we did not know anything about. IG: 10:04 A relative? PB: 10:04 A relative, you have to remember this is from the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century. You have to understand that my mom and dad's family grew up upstate New York, rural, and they were prejudiced, like many people, and they attempted to hide the identity of this relative, and I became very intrigued by that. I found photos and I found data, and I was only able to determine that he was a Seneca Indian whose family were wiped out by a typhus-typhus epidemic in the early 1900s and he was adopted by a Baptist missionary family whose last name was Baxter. How interesting. And they hid his identity, so we had the- my mother had an interest in this, even though it was not her family, it was my father's. We had virtually no information about him. This is my problem here. [coughs] But anyway- IG: 11:08 He has been a great grand uncle? PB: 11:12 Great grandfather, as far as and the other thing, however, you need to understand, because I did try to look into it to see if there was a connection that I could prove historically. Because, if you may not know, in the United States, Indian tribes are regulated by the blood quantum level. They are the only ones that are of all minorities in the country. However, the Senecas are matrilineal, and this was a paternal relative, so I did not qualify. I am probably 1/64 Iroquois, Seneca, as they would say, how Dasani. I have no family- IG: 11:36 Have you done DNA test? PB: 11:47 No, I did not. I did not do that. So that was I felt with that background, I was officially interested. My mother was interested. She kept some books on anthropology around the house. But I also was interested in classical Greek and Rome. And a matter of fact, my MA thesis now my BA thesis was on Roman painting. So, you see, I sidelined the Native American interest in and it became a dual interest with first, initially classical Greece and Rome. And then I became, my master's was expertise in English and American 19th century decorative art, which led me ultimately to the jewelry. And I had very good training for that. IG: 12:42 Do you remember the professors you studied? PB: 12:44 I remember every one of my professors and-and then I want to mention one who was not one who was a professor, but not in art history, because I was mindful of your questions. My-my undergraduate advisor was Vincent Bruno, very distinguished expert in underwater archeology, and he had written a book on the Parthenon. And I wrote my master's thesis. Sorry, I am sorry. Ba thesis under him on Roman painting. But two of the professors were very good to me, and I did the dangerous thing. And when I stayed on for the MA, I switched over to- IG: 13:22 Why do you say the dangerous thing? PB: 13:23 Well, because you can alienate your professor. However, Bruno and I managed to stay friends, and I used to see him after college, I stayed in touch with these three professors I am mentioning now after college, who were delighted by the career turn I did, because they wanted me to stay on for a PhD, and I left them to go to Columbia University and get my MLS in art librarianship. But Kenneth Lindsay and Albert Boime were my MA advisors. Ken was very good to many students, mentored a lot of them. And Albert Boime is brilliant 19th century scholar, but lots of thing, and he was a Marxist art historian at that time. Marxist art history is a little old fashioned. You have to understand that I went to college so far back that a lot of the current methodologies did not develop. But Marxism is really social history, which is what I wanted, and that is the methodology I adopted. IG: 14:19 It is, it is, it is a critical lens through which to see art. PB: 14:25 How art is developed- IG: 14:27 Is Terry Eagleton, one of the Marxist I mean, he is a literature critic. PB: 14:34 Was he at Binghamton at the time? IG: 14:36 No, but he is a Marxist. PB: 14:39 Yeah. Al was Albert was probably, I was that way too. Yeah-yeah. And he wrote unabashedly, Marxi- Marxist theory. He is famous for a number of books. His most famous book is about the academy the in both England and France, the idea of the Parisian Academy in the 19th century. But he was very diverse. He wrote an article about the pre-Raphaelites, and had other interests as well. IG: 15:08 Okay. PB: 15:08 I was his grad assistant in, um [crosstalk] IG: 15:12 How-how was your thinking personality shaping through all of these courses, and the attention that you were getting in class, and um- PB: 15:24 I was growing and I was developing as a person. I was very repressed in high school. I was repressed because of my family situation. I actually had almost no boyfriends. I did not fit into all the cliques in Oneonta and kind of went from one to one to one, which we turned out to be my personality. I am the kind of person that breaks through all the cliques and is a friend and I and interestingly, my father was that way as a faculty member too. They could all be fighting with each other, but everybody liked my father, and he united them, etc. I could go from clique to clique in different group, perhaps because I was a solitary girl child, but as an adult, critical thinking adult, Binghamton was excellent for me, and the library did play a role, because I had always been bookish. I always read a lot. I am a speed reader, by the way, which is something we found out in high school, [crosstalk], and it is just a natural speed reader who retains and I still I read a lot of books. Now I read, I read all kinds of fiction and genre and nonfiction. So, the library answered a lot of needs, but socially, I bloomed and I developed. And probably the most critical thing of all, I should tell you, although we could save it for the end, is that I met the love of my life in Binghamton, although I was wise and kept him as a friend, and he was a friend, and we did not start dating and become a couple until I was in grad school. He graduated (19)76. And- IG: 16:54 A Grad school in Binghamton? PB: 16:56 No, he graduates undergraduate. He graduated in 1976 from Binghamton, English major with a Medieval Studies Certificate, and- IG: 17:04 So, he probably knows Kenneth Lindsay. PB: 17:07 Well, his professors were you will know him. I am blanking. If you gave me some names, I would know Charmack, Paul Charmack, Robin Oggins, and a few others whose names I have forgotten. He had a medieval certificate. He and I, next month, in February, in March, will be celebrating our 40th winning anniversary. IG: 17:33 What is his name? PB: 17:34 Barry Katzen. IG: 17:37 Well, congratulations. [crosstalk] PB: 17:39 There used to be a joke in my mother's time about how girls would go to college to get their Mrs. In the 70s, we totally spat upon that idea, and we are not into it. I naturally had to become a feminist at this time period, and that is partly why I kept my-my maiden name, but also because I had student loans due, and I just did not want to do the paperwork to change to a married name. But what was the point I was going to make? That it was a byproduct. He was a friend I made. And I also think that it was very good that we stayed friends for a couple years before we became romantically involved. I think that is why our marriage is endured. We know a number of couples in Binghamton who married while in college, and every one of those couples is divorced now. So, we waited, and it was very good. Now, one thing I wanted to say, because you want to talk about life experiences, and I have to laugh, Barry and I took a course together, an English course under Alvin Voss, who we were very fond of in the English Department. And it was on Shakespeare. And I used to, I remember I was naughty. I used to slip notes to Barry sometimes during class, but to this day, he and I will quote lines from Shakespeare. Will have memories of a line like when I was at NYPL and they were getting ready to have layoffs at the during the recession of 2008-9. I remembered a quote from As You Like It, when I was at home I was in a better place, or when I began writing magazine articles, I would remember brevity is the soul of wit and things of that nature. And I have to say to this day, Barry and I laughed, but we feel like that. Shakespeare class gave us an unknown at the time, but lasting connection. And of course, nowadays, well, Shakespeare can endure, and does endure, but it is funny and that we remember Voss and his lectures and his talks, whereas I have forgotten all my anthropology professors’ names, and not my art history, but a lot of other professors, and we both still remember that class. IG: 17:41 Why do you think that is? Why do you think that you have such a clear memory of that class with Barry and-and sort of, you know, a foggy memory of the other classes? PB: 18:27 I think Vos [Alvin Vos], who actually physically was kind of an unassuming, modest man, youngish at that time, spoke in a very sometimes dreamy tone of voice, very meaningful. And he had us read, not always the obvious parts from Shakespeare, but when he did, he would actually allow us into that world. And I remember that one of them we read, and that is still my favorite. And then as I began to understand that there were some possible Native American Connections in that, the tempest became my favorite play. And with the line, oh, Brave New World, this is the one where Miranda and prospect [crosstalk] exile, and it had to be his teaching, and it had to be our willingness to be receptive. And what is interesting is it was not a course that was really going to line up with what we did in our day to day lives, but it stayed with us. And I cannot explain it. I feel that there was an intellectual rigor about Binghamton's programs and all the courses that you took that was excellent, and my BA was hard earned, particularly my senior year. I should say another thing too, Barry and I were on pipe dream. So, we were connected with some of the politics on campus. We knew people in student government. Barry roomed with the President of the Student Council. And= IG: 21:50 What was his name, the- PB: 21:51 Bill Gordon. And so, we knew the student council. I do have to say, though, that compared to what was going on in the (19)60s, by (19)73, (19)74, (19)75 things were relatively calm, although there was one sit in over tuition increases that everybody was involved with. IG: 22:07 You were involved in the sit in? PB: 22:08 Well, I did not go right in, but Barry was and we knew people that were doing the sit in. We were on pipe dream. So, we sent our- IG: 22:16 Student newspaper? PB: 22:17 Yes, and I became Features Editor in (19)74 I should also say that is another connection. I was on my high school newspaper. I was on the Oneonta state newspaper. I guess I was thinking about journalism alongside or as a way of earning money, because anthropology and art history can be difficult to break into. And I got onto pipe dream. And Barry got onto pipe dream. He started out as a photographer for pipe dream, and eventually became managing editor. I was Features Editor there for the year of 1974 which is pretty cool. And I stepped out, though in (19)75 because I was a senior and my courses and my BA thesis were tough. I could not give the time and attention to pipe dream that I could previously. Barry became editor in chief of pipe dream in 1976. IG: 23:10 What kind of features article were you running at the time? Do you remember? PB: 23:14 I would report on concerts. I also had, I had writers under me. I would report on art exhibits, what was going on in the art museum, concerts, and even sometimes major concerts that came to Binghamton, to the arena, things like that. There would be people that would come to play. I remember that we had Harry Chapin, or maybe I am confusing that with Oneonta, but he would come by a few times, and other singer songwriters and features, as I can remember, that really related to art and music and cultural activities. IG: 23:41 I see. PB: 23:51 Plays. IG: 23:57 Plays. Remember any titles that were- PB: 23:59 No-no, I have to tell you, I really do not remember, and I think that it was because of the senior year. They were very demanding in the art history program, very demanding, which was good for me later in life. And then, of course, I went right into the MA which was grueling back at that time, there was a thought that I could teach college without my PhD. That changed a lot by the end of the decade. So, they were very rigorous in preparing me to teach introductory art history, which meant I had to know every image in Janssen, and part of my exam- IG: 24:25 Janssen being the textbook? PB: 24:37 Being the history, the famous history of art had 3000 images in it, and part of my master's degree in order to qualify for it were two exams. One was a written thesis, which I did with Boime, and the other were my orals. And my oral exams is I would go into an into the classroom, and they would show 12 slides. With no identification. And I had to be able to identify them. And they could be from pre-history to now and then talk about their context. And they would do sly and clever things. Renaissance closely mimicked Hellenistic Greek and Roman sculpture. You could get confused. They put something in. It was modeled on something at and the cruelest thing they did, because I missed this one. If I missed more than two, I failed. So, I could not fail. The son of the guns, and I will say it to the day this day, put up the Bury Edmund's cross without the Christ on it. And I and several colleagues were taking our orals missed that one. So, when I said it was rigorous, it was rigorous. IG: 25:48 Was it ever it- was it ever constructed without the Christ on the cross? Or did they just take it off? PB: 25:55 They take it off. I think it could be removed for cleaning. So, they had slides of it removed for cleaning and whatever. Yeah, they wanted us to be able to recognize that cross form and pin it to the time period because it was significant. The beauty for how it hand helped me in later life is to this day, if you show me a page full of various different images, I can identify right away differences and similarities and things of that nature. That is a rigorous visual training that does not happen today in current art historical training, and I do not think any students in the last 10, 20 years could handle that. IG: 26:36 Why do you think that that has changed? PB: 26:38 Because I think the entire academic picture has changed within the (19)80s, (19)90s, 2000s with No Child Left Behind. The Switch to stem as you know, there has been a movement away from liberal arts training and art history has also been a very, very rigorous, demanding field, every one of my professors was male, and yet most students, not just the Binghamton but elsewhere Columbia elsewhere, are female. Men do get ahead. I noticed you had a question about, did men do better? The few men that were interested in art history, I remember always kind of did better in terms of getting to speak more with a professor, or being called on first, or things like that. So yes, there was some mild sexism going on in there, but all of these men that I studied under undergrad and grad were themselves products of ivy league training, and they all invariably went back to Ivy League. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons why I did not go on for a PhD is that I knew Al was going to jump to UCLA, a lot of them, except for Lindsay, who stayed and was faithful, all of them went to other places and-and Bruno came down to New York, so I was able to see him there, and he And I kept up a relationship, and it was tough, but it also induced the same academic-academic snobbery in me, snobbery in me, when I talking about the library at Binghamton, because I know this is important, I got a job right away working in the library. All the art librarians, from Betty Lincoln to Thomas Jacoby were very nurturing, and I was very, very good working there. I mean, did not do anything super professional, and they encouraged me when I began to think, I am a girl from a family with no money, and they want me to stay on for a PhD, and then I am going to have to go on and move around the entire country, taking little jobs, just like my dad had to do to get to where he wanted to go, and make very little money and often be adjunct. And maybe I should do something practical. And they say I am good as a librarian. So, I went down and applied to Columbia. I was not going to go anywhere but the finest program in the country. This is what Binghamton had done to me. And I went down and I interviewed with them, and I said, “I want you to know I want to come in. I only plan to be an art librarian. I am very ambitious. I want to run one of the best art libraries in the country.” And they like that because they were very arrogant thought and knew they were the finest [crosstalk] I am blanking on the names, so forgive me, all of them, and it is just today right now, or it is an issue I have with my age, but I can remember them, and they were good. They were they were kind of arrogant there, too. And by the way, this is a digression, that department was eliminated. IG: 29:38 Oh, I know I went- PB: 29:39 [crosstalk] and that had to do with real estate. They did not play their cards, right? IG: 29:45 But it is also, it is also, I mean, this is another conversation, but it is also that they were in keeping up with all of the technological development, PB: 29:52 Right. And they did not do a good job on that. The other thing they did not do is they did not forge ties with departments like communications, journalism, because something happened out in Florida with one of their major universities there, and they eliminated the library school, and all the faculty were able to go to other positions in the college. But at that time, Columbia was on the top and they allowed me to construct a master's in library science there that was completely art oriented. I even took government documents and did the art documents from the National Endowment of the Arts. And it was also a big in for getting jobs. Why I had to work all the time. I mean, I did not say this at the beginning, but there was not money in my family. I had taken out student loans, which I paid off, or things like that, but I got scholarships there at Columbia. My workplaces, I worked at the Fashion Institute of Technology, and then I worked at, this is a stretch American Institute of Physics, in their photo archives working and they paid for my second year of library school. IG: 30:59 How wonderful. PB: 31:00 I did not stay with them. They did not mind. They paid obviously, this is a long time ago, and I got my MLS in 1979 so the Columbia connection, I would not have gone there. I would not have done as well as I did, if it had not been for the rigor of the background in both my undergraduate and then my first graduate training in Binghamton, and I did very well in library school there, and I got very great jobs, except the one thing is, I was offered a job at SUNY Purchase, straight out of library school, and Barry announced that he wanted to get out of New York. He was having existential angst, and he applied to grad school at UCLA and Wisconsin, University of Wisconsin, and we got married, and I went with him, so I deferred that job. IG: 31:50 Where did you end up going? PB: 31:51 I ended up not getting a good job. I ended up getting a parent. Oh, you guys love this. I ended up working in the agriculture college, in their library in their land, tenure library in Madison-Madison, Wisconsin, because nobody I- okay, this is a good story. IG: 32:10 Okay, tell us a good story. PB: 32:11 It is a good story. And coming from Binghamton, you can see that I already have a little intellectual snobbery, well-earned and well deserved. I applied for a job at the Madison County Technical College. So, I go in for the interview, and he looks at my resume, and he looks at my resume, and he said, “Columbia University. I do not know where that is or what that is.” He said, “I only hire University of Wisconsin graduates get out of my office.” There was a very strong- this was 1979, (19)80. There was a very strong anti- well, no, they had had a blow up. They had had the ROTC building was blown up during the (19)60s, and they blamed outside agitators from New York. However, it did not take me very long to find out that the kid who blew up the ROTC building and killed a math professor was a local Madison boy. But I would be in the student I would be in the staff lounge and just over here, well, you know him. He is a con artist. He is from New York, and I would get this. I had a great work study student who worked for me, and I am talking to her, and she was really bright. And I said, “Oh, you know, I would hire you or something like that right away, or, you know, or but I had trouble getting hired here.” And she said to me, I and she loved me, by the way. She said, “I would not hire you. You are not a UW grad.” I actually, I heard that the woman they hired instead of me at Purchase left after a year, and she was Dr. Stan. She taught at Columbia before it closed, and got a PhD from there. So, I wrote to them, and I said, “I lied.” I said, “Oh, I am coming back and I will be living right in the area. Any chance that you would interview me for the job,” they hired me right back in so I left my husband behind for a year in Madison. He finished his master's degree, and I came and lived by myself in White Plains, where I lived for 31 years and worked at SUNY Purchase. From SUNY Purchase, I was lured to the Museum of Modern Art, where I became head of reference. IG: 34:30 Marvelous. PB: 34:31 And it was quite an amazing job. I got to meet all kinds of wonderful people. I partied with Andy Warhol. I had- IG: 34:40 Tell us about that. PB: 34:41 Oh, well, that would be, that was a good joke I would tell my students about because we were both drunk at a at a reception, and- IG: 34:49 Where was the reception? PB: 34:50 I was working at MOMA. MoMA was the child of the Rockefellers, who were the trustees, and they also, of course, Rockefeller Center. They had redone all of. Restaurants. This is back in (19)84, I believe. And yeah, it is (19)84 or so, and they had redone all the restaurants around the skating rink in Manhattan. They had the statue and all that. So, they closed the area off and they did a large reception. I saw Donald Trump there with his first wife, and all I could think of was she has five inches of makeup on. IG: 35:22 She has what? PB: 35:23 Five inches of makeup on. But it was one of those looks (19)80s parties you hear about. And they had stations where you could go get your sirloin burger, your pate this and that. They had open wine and liquor bars. So I was with all the librarians, you know, all the library people at MoMA. We were sitting together big table across from Keith Haring, who stuck his foot out and let me trip over it, and then laughed outrageously. That was Keith. And so, this is a really good story. This is the really and I think Binghamton was at the root of my being able to take all this very well. So, I- we drank liberally. I was a young woman at this time. I was really young. I was 24 when I got my second master's in Columbia. So, I had started college age 16. So, I had, I did all my training together in this, you know, seven, eight-year period, and-and then had it. So, we all been drinking very nicely, and my seat mates came back to me said, "Oh, Paula, there is a chocolate mousse station down there." And they describe where it is. "Oh," I said, three sheets to the wind, or whatever you call I want. I want chocolate mousse. So, I jumped up in the table, and I run over there, and I find out there is a big line, and at the end of the line there is this very handsome man. mind you, I am drunk, and he is wearing a gray bespoke suit, a beautiful lavender necktie. He has snow white hair, and it is tied back like a 19th century man with a velvet ribbon in the back, and he smells of some fantastic cologne. So, I go running up to him, and I say, "Oh, I love chocolate mousse, do not you" And he looks at me, and he sees me, and he smiles his beatific smile. And I said, “What a handsome guy, I am going to flirt with him.” And we start having this amazing, stupid, superficial conversation about chocolate mousse and chocolate mousses we have loved, and chocolate mousses we would like. And we had to wait about 10, 15 minutes on the line, or maybe, I know it was around 10 minutes, and then he was ahead of me in line, so they fixed his plate, but like a gentleman, he stayed with me, and then he helped advise me, because he had, like, white chocolate mousse, and this, I mean, this is the Lux 80s. You would never get that now. And-and help me fill my plate, and then, and I am chatting away at him, and he is chatting back at me, and then we get ready to part, and he is sitting in different areas, so we are standing and we are talking to each other like we are kind of like enamored of each other. And I said, “That was a wonderful talk we had. Thank you very much.” And he looks at me. He says, “I had a great time. Thank you.” So, he walks away. So here is the best part. Here are all my librarian friends. They are jumping up and down on their tables, on the chairs, because they are drunk too, screaming. They look just like the monkeys in 2001 with the monolith. "Paula. Paula. Paula. That was Andy Warhol." And I said, "That was Andy." And they said, "Yeah, what the hell were you doing with him?" It looked like he was going to pick you up and take you for a date. Well. I said, "Well, that would not be bloody likely, but I did not know it was him." And then I told the story to one of my students in college years later, and one of my little students said, she said, "You know what I think happened? He loved that you did not recognize him, and he probably did not get that that much." And then I just talked to him like he was a human, like he was another guy, and I was flirting with him and everything. Later on, I had to teach Warhol in college, because I taught this creative mind course I read, and it turned out he had a famous quote, I am a very superficial person, and it was part of his whole, you know, raise on debt and all that. And I realized that that interlude, my 15 minutes of fame with him, or 10 or whatever, because he is the one that made that quote. You know, we probably were having a wonderful time. Because if I know who he was, I would have changed my behavior immediately and been whatever. And he had the joy of a young woman who did not know he was gay and did not know he was who he was, and just true human beings having fun at a party. And I met some other great people too. So, MoMA was wonderful, but I was very ambitious. Ancient Chinese curse, you sometimes will get what you want. So, I applied for the curatorship of the Art and Architecture Department at New York Public Library. I did not do research, number one mistake, but I knew that that was one of the premier positions, and I was very ambitious, and I had competition that took six months to hire, and then I was hired, and I stayed there for 22 years. But it was a terrible place, a terrible, terrible workplace, terrible. IG: 40:35 Why? PB: 40:36 Because there was no appreciation of the employees and no trust, no appreciation. For example, I curated exhibitions, but I was not allowed to talk to the President of the of NYPL. Did not want staff talking to trustees. I- my boss and I had to give a little show and tell to Oscar de la Renta, his wife, Annette and Bill Blass. They love me. Bill Blass started up a friendship with me. He wanted to do stuff. I had to actually go to the director of the NYPL and tell him that Bill Blass was talking to me directly. And he put an end to that at once, it was terrible. IG: 41:21 How terrible. PB: 41:22 One time, if you know about development- IG: 41:24 Who instituted those rules? PB: 41:27 I do not know, but that was a culture, that was a culture. And I came in. At- IG: 41:32 Do you think that that has changed? PB: 41:34 I think it has gotten worse. IG: 41:36 You think that it is- but Tony Marks was president. PB: 41:40 And at, yeah, he was at, oh, God, what is it? I have a friend of mine works, worked there for him. IG: 41:47 But no longer. PB: 41:48 Yeah, Amherst College. Was Amherst, or was it the other one. IG: 41:52 Who was the president at the time? PB: 41:54 Well, I had several, actually, I do not even mean president, I mean director of the library. I see Bill Walker, and he was not a good person. Oh, I am seeing this librarianship, so, all right, I am getting a little too free here. All right, make sure you delete that and, you know, just leave it vague like that. It was not a good place to work. And one example of that is that they brought in new management around 2004 and the word got out, but then they took so long, because they were using lawyers, they were going McKinsey Company had come and done a survey. They blamed upper management. They found out, right? Who was responsible? Well, you know, upper management is not going to take the fall. So, they decided that all the middle managers who were over 40 would be gotten rid of. And that was me, along with some brilliant people. I had just done an exhibition there. Oh, and they made a gag order. We were not allowed to talk for three years about being turned down. And one of their motives where we were in the New York State Pension, and the ones who had been there who were over 55 and were in tier one, they cost them a fortune. I was in tier four, though, and which was the least one. But they just came and they just cleaned house. They tossed one of the beloved curators, who was considered to be the best map librarian in the country, out while she was still doing an exhibition, I had just done an exhibition that broke attendance records and had gotten raves in the New York Times, in New Yorker magazine, and they decided- IG: 43:37 These articles, do these articles mention you? PB: 43:40 Yes. Oh, not always. IG: 43:44 Not always. PB: 43:44 The New York Times is funny about not necessarily mentioning curators and things like that. Although I did get mentioned in the early exhibitions later on, I might have- IG: 43:56 What was the name of the exhibition that you were- PB: 43:59 I have the poster in the home. It is called Art Deco design, rhythm and verve. That was the attendance breaking one, but it did not matter, and I knew the collection. I had a master's. I had been there 22 years and but they had brought in a manager, and he was actually a colleague, friend of mine, and they decided they would not have two non-union managers, so I was the one to go, and he had just come in a few years ago. Previously- IG: 44:36 When did that happen? PB: 44:37 2002 because I was going out for brain surgery. I had a brain tumor. I am a brain tumor survivor, and we did not know if I was going to make it, but that is not why they hired him. They did not even know all this was coming down until I let them know, and he came on board like the week before I went for my surgery. IG: 44:58 Okay, so that-that is really a life changing event, PB: 45:02 Yes, and- IG: 45:03 You survived. PB: 45:04 Yeah. IG: 45:05 How did that change your life? PB: 45:06 Well, I began to see I began too again. Maybe we can even think my critical thinking skills were good from my early 20s on, I knew a lot of us stayed there. I was very highly paid. I was one of the highest paid art librarians in the country, which is what I wanted. But that made me a target. I had a big target on my back. [crosstalk] Yes, they did not care. I mean, the people that they let go, they let go of the curator in the Slavic division, the curator- IG: 45:38 I know, I know- PB: 45:40 [crosstalk] They let John Lundquist. They let go of Alice Hudson, everybody who was over 40. And mind you, they were not necessarily as well-well paid as me, because they have been there longer. I came in and I had- IG: 45:53 What was, what was their what was the premise? I mean, what was, what was their explanation for doing away. For example- PB: 46:02 They were going, they wanted to integrate. It was going to be one library they did away with the research libraries. They had started a remote storage facility at Princeton that they did in Tandem with Princeton and Columbia put your books into stories, you probably had a 60 percent chance of never seeing them again. It all went black. It went black. IG: 46:31 It was such a- PB: 46:32 And I had a gag, I had a gag order on me. For me, they had to be careful, because Alice and John and Ed. They were, they were older than me, 10 years older than me. I was just in my mid 50s at that time, I came in as a tier four, the bottom tier, and they really did not have a reason. And if they had been asked, why did you take the one with all the experience and credentials over the one that is just come in as a library manager, they would not have a leg to stand on. So, this is what they did, which was illegal, but believe me, they had all their lawyers on it. They knew I would turn 55 in October, 2009 so they kept me on for a year. They let me know in July, 2008 that I was out, my position was eliminated. That is how they got around it legally. My position as curator, they retired. Almost all except for a couple curator positions just eliminated them. That was a legal thing that they did to protect themselves and with me they came. They said, “This is totally illegal by New York State law.” Why am I doing this as a recording here? Well, I do not mind. I am past the date now. They told me, “Oh, Paula, you are going to be 55 next September.” Illegal-illegal-illegal. Why do not we have you retire then, and we will give you health benefits for life, for right up through Medicare, and even help you with which is what they did with retirees. But they did not have to give them to me, and they did not give them to a lot of other people who they laid off. They laid off 65 people at the time I was let go, and 64 of them were called into the auditorium and told you have 10 days to pack up and leave. I was the 65th but they waited on me. The director had me in his office, and I come in, and I knew I am in trouble because the labor relations guy is there, and he said, coldly to me, I am the one that had done all these things. Got articles in New York Times and that, as did all my colleagues. And he said, “Things are changing here at New York Public Library, we no longer have any need of your experience or services.” And it was mean as could be Now, there are ways to handle it. And this guy, who is now head of the National Archives, by the way, you know, was very mean to me. I guess he was told he had to be that way. I am sure he did not enjoy it, but he enjoyed his very lux salary as director. I think he was brought in. We all agree, he was brought in as a henchman, and there was a reward waiting for him down the line, which there was, and he, you know, there is so many ways to tell somebody they are not wanted anymore. He could have done it and still got rid of me and said, “You know, this is great, but we are changing to more stem version, and we are going to downplay our liberal art.” He just basically made me feel like a creep. And then when I am like, really creep, and I am thinking, gee, maybe I have a lawsuit here, and they were terribly afraid of that, he said, “But you know what, we are going to keep you. You are still a year away from being 55 we are going to keep you for a year, and we are going to second you.” He did not use second. I mean, using that term to the Education Department, where you will work till next year, and maybe you can stay on and but at least when you get retired, you will be 55 and you will be in the state pension system, and you can get a pension. Well, first of all, illegally. That is illegal-illegal-illegal. You do not talk to an employee about their age. And yet, they did, I and they did it, you know, and I think that they were measuring lawsuit versus, you know, the carrot to get someone who had had a brain tumor and had to get checked every few years and take an MRI, and I also had both my knees replaced in 2006 and then had radiation because the tumor grew again. They knew I needed health benefits, so that was my bribery, and I went for it. And as soon as I was retired, nobody in the New York area would touch me because I was retired, so I am desperate, and so I decided to write books again, and I taught a little course back at Purchase and continuing ed and on the next to second, last second to last night of the course I was teaching, one of my students raised her hand, said, "My husband's a dean at Berkeley College. They are looking for someone to teach art history and critical thinking. Can I recommend you?” They hired me like a flash. IG: 51:29 That is wonderful. PB: 51:31 And I worked for them for nearly eight years. But Binghamton, I am in you know, I think Binghamton-Binghamton opened my eyes to the world, but also taught me what intellectual integrity was, and about hard work and about various things. I have another story for you, which will tell you about the upstate downstate I worked various jobs and jobs I worked most often when I was an undergraduate, because I had school, but I needed that money. I had no spending money. I worked as a night guard in the dorms because I was a night owl. But one summer when I was not taking many courses, they hired me in the cafeteria of the Student Union, and I like it was my second day there, and they said, “You know what, we are going to put you on the cash register?” Well, it turned out to be a call celeb, and all of Binghamton was talking about it, because they had never, ever put a student, an undergraduate student, on the cash register, because they figured, or, steal, and I was in nine days wonder, I think the radio station had a big thing about it, pipe dream had a little article about it. People would come up to me and say, they put you on the cash register. And I Yeah, but they-they knew they talked to me and I talked upstate. They knew where I came from. They even knew part of my family through Cooperstown and stuff like that. And so, I always thought that that was a marvelous statement about Binghamton. And this is (19)74, (19)70 sometimes (19)74 or late (19)73 and this was the upstate downstate divide, because all of us were firmly agreed, and they would not say anything in the cafeteria. But I knew it was true that because I was an upstate girl, they could trust me on the cash register. IG: 53:29 That is a great story. We are running out of time. PB: 53:34 I knew it. IG: 53:34 And so, I usually conclude these interviews by asking, what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? And you said “Intellectual integrity and a rigor.” PB: 53:48 Being able to work hard. I was not able to write five books without being very disciplined. I had to make decisions like, I am not watching television, I am writing. I cannot write books if I watch television. And I think that some of the arrogance of my professors in that program, you know, that we are the best, and this and that rubbed off on me, because I wanted to go to the best college for librarianship when I decided to be a professional librarian, art librarian. And I also think that Binghamton took a sheltered little girl from a very white bread, you know, not diverse community, grew up that way, and exposed her to lots of different students, lots of different situations. Socially, I did well. Romance wise, I went from being a little girl who did not go to the prom to, you know, popular, and I became a person. But all my critical thinking, because I was very informed when I came to Binghamton, developed there, and I had to learn to grow up fast. There were things that we do not need to talk about Binghamton, that you learn to grow up fast. Asked about and you had to have faith in your faculty. And I certainly did. And I, you know, I did two master's degrees willy nilly, and got by them quite well, straight out of there. And to this day, because I still intellectually, you know, I was hurt by the NYPL experience deeply hurt, and probably will be, you know, Barry says, you know, remember, that is past old news and all that, but writing all those books and doing all that was my way, and I have a lot of published articles- IG: 55:36 Books, please tell our audience are on- PB: 55:39 Native American jewelry. I am an expert in that area, particularly Southwestern Navajo and Pueblo jewelry, because the Southwest is the marketplace for all Native American jewelry. Jewelers from South America, Central America and Canada, come to the southwest to sell their jewelry. IG: 56:02 And just tell us how many books you have written and some of the titles. And- PB: 56:07 The first book I wrote was a tribute to my library background. I wrote the Encyclopedia of Native American Jewelry. It is the first and only such encyclopedia of its kind. NYPL keeps it in their main reading room still, which is a source of pride to me that I have a book in the main reading room at NYPL at 42nd street. I then went on to write four more books. My magnum opus is a two-volume definitive 150 years of Navajo Pueblo jewelry design, 1870 to 2020, it is an expansion of my first full book, southwestern silver jewelry. And I have is going to be combination reference book, picture book. It will be the resource in the field jewelry, because and has often got short hand. You know, short treatment in academia and other areas, because it is decorative arts or whatever, and Native American art in general has not always had a literature that serves it well. A lot of people wrote were enthusiasts or collectors, and not necessarily academics. So, I am able to write in an academic but accessible, shall we say, accessible, scholarly man- manner, thanks to my education and my training as a professional. IG: 57:33 Thank you so much. It has been a delightful interview, an extremely interesting life story. PB: 57:41 I think Barry would be angry that I talked about the NYPL. But since this is a library and it is a center, and you know, they did us wrong, I do not mind being on record with this, they cannot do anything to me. Statute of limitations is long over, and you know, if you are going to be a librarian, you need to be alert. I saw many red flags in my time there. And, yeah, this is not being required. IG: 58:10 All right. Thank you very, very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paula Baxter Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Baxter, Paula ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Paula is a practicing design historian. She is the author of three books on Native American jewelry, along with numerous magazine articles on American Indian arts and design. Before that, she was a professor in the humanities at Berkeley College in Westchester County, New York. Previously she worked as an art librarian and curator at the New York Public Library for 22 years. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Paula Baxter.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:14 minutes