51 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f45059780b1280da41dd3ab46fc44882.pdf ab6ce465d5c18841eff490da37cb0c6a PDF Text Text STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK AT BINGHAMTON Harpur College Department of Music Stein Fischer Conductor PAUL JORDAN, Organ and Celesta October 12, 1974 Jean Casadesus R e c i ta l Hall 8 : 1 5 PM I R R R . . . �PROGRAM HUNGARIAN SET: THE PEARLY BOUQUET (1943) for celesta and string orchestra IRWIN FISCHER 7 Allegretto 2. Andante 3. Poco Allegro 4. Andantino “Always have I inclined to the life of a shepherd” “Fly from my window, dear swallow” “The stars have already disappeared into the coming daylight” “Dew is sparkling on the grains of wheat” O F Adagio 6. Allegro moderato 7&8. Allegro giocoso v “Master, please pay me what you owe me” “Even lovely faces are false “My top boots are new” and “That lad’s a hopeless case CONCERTO IN G MAJOR, OPUS 4, NO. 1 (1738) for organ, strings and continuo GEORGE FRI DERI C HANDEL Allegro Adagio Allegro INTERMISSION CHORALE FANTASY (1938) for organ and orchestra IRWIN FISCHER � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus. Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 sound tape reels Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 36:11 20:46 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE243376">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE243376</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous'] Options: 'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) 'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) Continuous Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hungarian Set: The Pearly Bouquet by Irwin Fisher, October 12, 1974 Recital tape 1974 10-12 Description An account of the resource Held at 8:15 pm, October 12, 1974, Casadesus Recital Hall. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974-10-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/34ab0d27e477c298010cc1297712547e.jpg bc86ecb345d40af30f01387eb8ac1b73 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/907c2c215da9c28fbdb502def14589e9.jpg 8b179d776bb2b9d18ca81fe15c9a0550 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/28374ba1af8d1128799fb9829b025e3c.jpg 9e44f8918f4c60dda3b1e94e7f21fe71 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/834f28377d6015c7168f787e274f0a3e.jpg 0c09d489e639ad7e1512a32a9eaa3e61 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4a159004ade492c3cdfcff787d2c31f3.jpg c4b966ad2d32d7c0a7c536b816af183c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9dfb5a68a50e5a0e674f8f781bda7214.jpg 5f32ca4205a83b8b11841d73676723a4 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9566b9158360c229316434fc19d01074.jpg ad24d6179c4c33352dde9b5a1f72bc77 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d66c195029ec73f4f59df56839ed68f0.jpg 9a646c5b0a248f51a8ca1712c7a49d19 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/afb5885de7ccb9bebe0a45f7261580f8.jpg 85eaa43da7bf191dd20e136c67eefad7 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2cc27ad11c92b1bc491b5cbb88f1c4f5.jpg 8aa3015e92e4fda1f061916b35900061 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reinhardt Promptbooks Description An account of the resource Who is Max Reinhardt? The celebrated Austrian theater director <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/research-and-collections/reinhardt/">Max Reinhardt</a>, recognized in America primarily for his elaborate productions of Shakespeare’s A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Franz Werfel’s The Eternal Road, and Karl Vollmoeller’s The Miracle, was born in 1873 at Baden near Vienna, Austria and died in New York City in 1943. Reinhardt’s illustrious career takes on added significance because it coincides with a major shift in the evolution of the modern theater: the ascendancy of the director as the key figure in theatrical production. Reinhardt’s reputation in international theater history is secured by the leading role he played in this transformation, as well as by his innovative use of new theater technology and endless experimentation with theater spaces and locales, which together redefined traditional relationships between actor and audience toward a new participatory theater. What is a prompt book? The prompt book is a master copy of the production script and contains a wealth of instructions and information alongside the basic text of the play. As well as the actors’ lines, you will often see cues for music, movement, light, and many other aspects of stage business. It may also contain sketches of how a piece of staging is supposed to look, or which costume a character should wear in a scene. Why are his important? Reinhardt’s directorial prompt books reflect the ways in which he made plays by major playwrights, including Ibsen, Shakespeare and Wilder, his own. The prompt books contain notations denoting changes in the script, actor moves and technical cues, instructions on how sound, props and scenery were used, and stage drawings. They help us to reconstruct Reinhardt’s techniques and directions in productions. Acknowledgements Thank you to the Gladys Kriebel Delmas Foundation who generously provided the funding to make this extraordinary project possible. Thank you also to the following individuals who helped make this project successful: Binghamton University Libraries’ Staff: Benjamin Coury, Nicholas Eggleston, Jean Green, Blythe Roveland-Brenton, Erin Rushton, David Schuster, Rachel Turner, Brandy Wrighter; Binghamton University Students: Madelynn Cullings, Kashawn Hernandez, Aanyah Jhonson-Whyte, Marisa Joseph, Bethany Maloney, Ashleigh Marie Sherman, Thomas Tegtmeier, Joseph Vitale. Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2877">Full Display and German Transcription of Max Reinhardt's</a><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2877"> Reigen Promptbook</a> <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/research-and-collections/reinhardt/">Max Reinhardt Archives and Library</a> <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,reinhardt&tab=DigitalCollections&search_scope=DigitalCollections&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&offset=0">Max Reinhardt Collection Photographs</a> <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/max-reinhardt-timeline">The Life and Times of Theater Director Max Reinhardt</a> <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/max-reinhardt-theaters">The Theaters of Max Reinhardt</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jean Green,  Binghamton University Students: Madelynn Cullings Kashawn Hernandez Aanyah Jhonson-Whyte Marisa Joseph Bethany Maloney Ashleigh Marie Sherman Thomas Tegtmeier Joseph Vitale Promptbook Description Three books, one for each act. Markings in purple pen, black pencil, red pencil, and blue pencil. Markings in black pencil do not appear to be Reinhardt’s handwriting. All acts heavily marked throughout. Extensive written notes found consistent throughout entire play in purple pen. Also common are restructuring notes and other staging directions in colored pencil. Collection Max Reinhardt Promptbooks Dimensions Physical dimensions of item 29cm x 23cm Earlier version Earlier version (dcterms:isVersion Of) In einer Nacht Notes Located in Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections PT2635.E548P75 v.149 Production(s) September 17, 1937, Vienna (likely Theater in der Josefstadt) October 1937, Vienna, Theater in der Josefstadt (with note: "Prof. Witzmann") -Supporting materials (for all): Box 28 Folder 10: Writings; Writings by Others on Max Reinhardt; (Ernst Lothar on Werfel 1937 Josefstadt Theater production) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource In einer Nacht : ein Schauspiel [Akt I-III] [promptbook] Subject The topic of the resource Werfel, Franz, 1890-1945. In einer Nacht : ein Schauspiel [Akt I-III] Promptbooks Stage directions Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Werfel, Franz, 1890-1945 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1900s Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Reinhardt, Max, 1873-1943 Language A language of the resource German Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context R 3245 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Josefstadt Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright undetermined. This image is provided for educational and research purposes only as is stipulated by U.S. and international copyright law. For more information, please contact speccoll@binghamton.edu. https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7cfd48702676b402c2ae1ece1e070e2a.pdf 2d1a11d3ab4d9955c44fc5fe83ae5099 PDF Text Text BINGHAM TON U N I V E R S I E X S T A T E U NIVERSITY O F NEW YORK [4 D E P A R v odee T M E N T INCURA BLE R OMANT ICS Timothy P e rry, clarinet Ma rga ret Reitz, p iano Jonatha n Biggers, organ Ma rt ha Weber, bassoon Sarah Cha ndler, clar inet Saturday, Se ptember 20, 2 0 1 4 7:30 p.m. Wattcrs Theater �8c) PROGRAM NOTES (93 80 PROG RAM (93 Adagio and Tarantella. . Franz Schubert (18071874) Ernesto Cavallini was among the few virtuoso wind players whose artistry rose to inspire a major composer during an age in which the piano, the voice and the violin reigned supreme. Cavallini trained in Milan, and such was his command of his (by then antiquated) sixkeyed clarinet that he was known as the “Paganini” of the instrument. His entire career seems to have been spent as Principal Clarinet at La Scala as well as in St. Petersburg, apparently commuting back and forth as his services were required. It was for Cavallini that t he majority of Verdi’s clarinet parts were written, including the massive L’Histoire du Tango . Astor Piazzolla IL Café 1930 (19211992) solo and cadenza in La Forza del Denim: the longest instrumental solo line in any of Verdi’s worlts. He left few extant works of his own, all showing the inﬂuence of the opera. His mostperfu med work is this short Adagio and Tarentella demonstrating the technical and tonal control he himself doubtless possessed. JON DunConcertina (194 78) . Richard Strauss (186411949) Allegro moderato – Andante – Rondo (Allegro ma non troppo) Piazzolla’s History of the Tango was a fourmovement suite com posed to demonstrate the evolution of the Argentine danceform from its origins in the Bordellos of Buenos Aires to the electronic music of today. Piazzolla composed the work for Flute and Guitarthe duo played the earliest forms of tango around 1900 but the work has been successfully adapted for many other instruments since its premiere in 1986. Of the second movement, Piazzolla writes “Cafe, 1 910: This is another age of the tango. People stopped dancing it as tlrey did in 1900, preferring instead simply to listen to it. It became more musical, and more roma ntic. This tan go has under gone total trans format i on: the move ments are slower , with new and often melancholy harmonies. Tango orchestras come to consist of two violins, two concertinas, a BO INTERMISSION cs piano, and a bass. The tango is sometimes sung as well. The movement is one of Piazzolla’s most soulful and evocative tangos, ﬁlled with the suggestion of powerful romantic urges that ru n the gamut from sweet to violent, closing with an enigmatic, but likely tragic, ending. vaeen Fantasia da Concerto su motivi de ‘La Traviara’ . Donato Lovreglio Quintet in b minor, Op. 1 15. II. Adagio Johannes Brahms (18331897) Divertimento, “Il Convegno” (1 8411 90 7) Amilcare Ponchielli (18341886) F ew com positions display the tenacity of Roma nticism better tha n the diﬀicult, somewhat problematic, but altogether remarkable DuettCmrcertino the last orchestral work by Richard Strauss composed in 1947 for the Viennese bassoonist Hugo Burghauser. In 1917 Strauss had hired the 21year old into the Vienna Philharmonic and thirty years later, with the world of Romantic Vienna twice removed by the wreckage of two world wars a nd Burghauser struggling as an exile in N ew York, Strauss presented his friend with a n everlasting token of their friendship by which ‘you shall dance again’. . The gift took the form of a d uetconcertino for clarinet a nd bassoon with accompaniment of both full string orchestra and a solo string sextet. The work is based loosely upon a fairy tale. in which a princess (clarinet) meets a beat (bassoon) who is (of course) an enchanted prince, and after some initial diﬀiculties (music superimposed in both 4/4 and 6/4 time), the prince tells his tale in an eloquent soliloquy (Andante), is transmogriﬁed (brief cadenzas) and the happy couple, now harmonized, do indeed dance oﬀ in an extended rondo. That the work is a com plex and largely private metaphor for the persons, places and times shared by Strauss and Burghauser does little to diminish its unique formal architecture and often rapturous beauty. It is equally an expression of nostalgic reminiscence for the past, and hope for the furure. �TP Note: For this performance I have found i t necessary to parse the piano reduction into a new version for piano and organ, the original published version being both musically unsatisfactory and unplayable! Thanks to J onathan & Pej! nu–n nu–n n nu n–u..–n n–n n–n nu n–n...–n––n–n n n n n n n n n n n nu n n n nu n n n n While the end of the eighteenth century proved to be something of a ‘golden age’ for solo performers on wind instruments, the collapse of court and Imperial sponsorships created the equivalent of a ‘food desert’ for woodwinds from 18301880, during which time the ‘beast with 88 teeth’ consumed the attention of composers and the public alike. That woodwind virtuosity was continuing to advance in spite of the dearth of sonata and concerto is shown in the interesting subgenre of the opera fantasia. These were works that utilized melodies from arias and ensembles of operas while they were then in rehearsal for their premieres. Performers would cobble together a set of episodes, each comprising the aria (in its original form) and an accompanying virtuoso variation. Despite the obvious theft of materials, the widespread popularity of this arrangement seemed to suit both parties; the composers got free publicity. which heightened interest in the upcoming premiere among the public, and the performers attached themselves to their more famous colleagues while making themselves known and solvent through solo performances. Lovreglio, a Neopolitan ﬂutist arguably even more obscure than Cavallini, is remembered for this Traviata clarinet fantasia and three more, on Maria Stuarda, Simon Boccanegm, and Un Ballo in Maschem. Brahms’ biographer Jan Swaﬀord sums up the mood of Brahms’ 1891 Clarinet Quintet as “...the evanescent sweetsadness of autumn, beauti ful in its dying.” With this work. for the only time in his li fe, Brahms brought his compositional powers to bear on exploiting the timbral and tonal possibilities of an instrument other than the piano. The measured and nuanced use of the low, middle and high registers came from hours of Brahms’ listening to the artistry of Meiningen clarinetist Richard Muhlfeld. No other work of the age comes close to capturing so completely the soul of the instrument, from inﬁnite sweetness to dark melancholy to cries of an anguished spirit. In a period when Brahms was increasingly losing his dearest friends to Death’s embrace, the incomparable slow movement of the quintet moves from heaven to earth and heaven again. The transcendent outer sections slowly spin out the liebeslieder of Brahms’ old age. Within in the movement’s center the passionate ember of love still burns in a sweeping, virtuosic Gypsy style that was so often employed for Brahms’ ﬁnales. although never expressed in a more soloistic, personal way than here. While stripped of the embracing support of the string quartet original, the movement with piano alone lays bare what Malcolm MacDonald called “every superreﬁned shade of silvergrey regret,” Brahms in love, even to the end of days. No doubt about it Opera, like Academia, is a tough business. Having won a professorship at the Milan Conservatory just out of school. political ‘considerations’ deprived Amilcare Ponchielli of what might have become his career in teaching. He struggled with several marginally successful operas unti achieving worldwide fame with La Gioconda (with its famous ‘dance of the hours’ made immortal by Disney hippos) in 1 876. Ponchielli did ﬁnally become a professor at Milan in l 8 8 I , where he served as one o f the teachers o f the young Mascagni and Puccini. H is gi ft for woodwind writing came from long years of earning his living as a bandmaster in Cremona and Piacenza, d which time he composed over 200 works for banda. This was likely the impett writing l l C onvegna, usually translated as “ The Meeting. ” This has recently given wa more romantic translation as “ The Tryst”, which seems more in keeping witl amorous moods of the almost impossibly intertwined solo parts. And of course, wh the activities of its protagonists, the opera house is never out of sight. T. Perry, September n – – – – – – – – n – n – – n – n n n n n – n – – n . . – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – 8c) ABOUT THE PERFORMERS (98 Dr. Timothy Perry is now in his twentyninth season as Professor of Mu’ Binghamton University. where he is Director of Orchestral Activities, lnstrun Conducting and Professor of Studio Clarinet. A Wisconsin native, he attende University of WisconsinMadison as a National Merit Scholar prior to graduating distinction from the Manhattan and Yale Schools of Music where he studied C l with Leon Russianoﬀ and Keith Wilson and Conducting with Szymon Goldberg, Mauceri, Arthur Weisberg and was teaching assistant to his principal teacher, Werner Mueller. Dr. Perry taught at Bemidji State University system in Mint directing the Bemidji Symphony Orchestra for ﬁve years prior to joining the BU f in 1986. I n addition to directing BU ’s University Symphony and String Orchestra Perry also directed the BU Wind Ensemble program from 19862005 and served : Music Director of the Binghamton Community Orchestra from 19942004; h returned to the B C O as Music Director in Fall 20 1 4, and continues to perform a range of orchestral. opera and musical theater repertoire as Guest Conductor with regional and international ensembles. Since 2005 Dr. Perry has led both the Bingha Philharmonic and Catskill Symphony orchestras in concert, and with his BU ens< has twice collaborated with New York’s renowned Paul Taylor Dance Company as v working as Music Director with faculty and performers of DUOC in Santiago. Chi binational productions of West Side Story and The ThreePenny Opera. As BU’s Profes Clarinet he is active throughout the world as soloist, chamber musician and re: including three appearances at the world conference of the International Cl. Association and touring for the Department of State as United States M Ambassador for Latin America and the Caribbean. He is Past President of the Nor Division of the College Orchestra Directors’ Association and was a featured speal the National C OD A Conference in Fort Worth Texas in January 20 1 4. Margaret Reitz, pianist, is a native o f the Binghamton Area. She received her Ba and Master of Music degrees in piano performance with accompanying emphasi attended Boston University, New England Conservatory and Binghamton Universi! has studied piano with Jean Casadesus, Victor Rosenbaum, Seymour Fink and ' Ponce and accompanying with Allen Rogers. She has accompanied throughoi United States, in England, South America, Spain and at the American lnstit Musical Studies in Graz, Austria. She was a winner of the Artistic Ambassadors Pr �by the United States Information Agency in partnership with the John F. Kennedy Center for the performing arts. She was an oﬀicial accompanist for the MTNA State and Eastern Division Competition held at Ithaca College. She has been a guest cha mber music artist in Morges, Switzerland. She also was selected to attend the Accompanying Workshop for Singers and Pianists held at Northwestern University with Chicago Lyric Opera Faculty and Coaches. She was invited to the International Clarinet Conference to play a recital in Tokyo, Japan. She was an oﬀicial pianist at the International Double Reed Competition and Convention in at Ithaca College and was invited to play at the Convention in Birmingham, England and NYU with the Glickman Ensemble this past summer. She recorded several CD’s with the Glickman Ensemble in Englewood, NJ. She performed with the Glick man Ensemble on the Cornell Sum mer Series in J uly. She was selected to accompanying at the Interpretation o f Spanish Music in conjunction with University of Madrid in Grenada, Spain coached by Teresa Berganza and at Marines School of Music. She was a Guest Artist playing two concerts in Granada, Spain and accompanied the Barcelona Song Festival. She soloed with the Catskill Symphony at the Otesaga in Cooperstown, NY under the direction of Charles Schneider. She has accompanied at The International Spanish Music Festival in Madrid, Spain. She was the pianist for Theater Street Productions on the Newport Music Festival Summer 2014. She is currently on the faculty at Binghamton University since 1991 and Ithaca College School of Music since 1999 and SUNYBroome since 2014. She is the treasurer of the local District VII Music Teachers Association and is an active adjudicator for the National Piano Guild Organization. Jonathan Biggers, hailed as “one of the most outstanding concert organ ists in the United States,” maintains an active career as both a professor of organ and harpsichord, and as a concert organist of the ﬁrst order. He holds the prestigious Edwin Link Endowed Professorship in Organ and Harpsichord at Bingham ton University (State University o f New York), and has presented hundreds of concerts in church and university settings throughout the United States, Canada, and Europe. Most recently, he presented the opening concert for the National Convention of the American Guild of Organists held in July 2010 in Washington D.C., performing for over 1600 organists. He has appeared as a featured soloist with orchestras in both the United States and Canada, including the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra, and has been featured frequently on NPR (“Pipedreams”), the Canadian Broadcast Corporation (CBC), and on Radio and Television Suisse Romande broadcasts in Geneva, Switzerland. Scott Cantrell, classical music critic of The Dallas News, stated that Biggers’ performances demonstrate “authority and eloquence". and further stated “were there more performers like this, the organ would be far less a minority interest". Dr. Biggers studied with Russell Saunders (Eastman School of Music ; DMA); Lionel Rogg (Conservatory of Music, Geneva, Switzerland; Fulbright study); J. Warren Hutton ( The University of Alabama; MM and BMus); and with Wallace Zimmerman (Atlanta; precollege); he has also worked extensively with Harold Vogel (Bremen, Germany), and with Arthur Poister (former Professor of Organ at Syracuse University). A prizewinner of dozens o f competitions, he was notably awarded a unanimous ﬁrst prize in the 1985 Geneva International Competition. one o f the most prestigious music compe titions in the world; second prize in the 1982 American Guild of Organists National Organ Playing Competition; and a unanimous ﬁrst prize in the 1990 Calgary International Organ Festival Concerto Competition, where he presented, with the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra, the world premier performance of Snowwalker: A Concerto for Organ and Orchestra by Pulitzer prizeowinning composer Michael Colgrass. A champion of new music for the organ, he has premiered other works by notable 20th and 21st century composers such as Richard Proulx (Chicago: Concerto for Organ and Orchestra), Craig Phillips (Los Angeles: Suite for Organ, Brass and Percussion), Persis Vehar (Buﬀalo: Soundpiece for Organ), and David Brackett (Montréal: Nightworks for Organ solo). Two highly acclaimed compact disc recordings of Dr. Biggers’ performances have been released by Calcante Recordings (Sleepers Wake! A Reger Perspective, featuring ﬁve major organ works by Romantic composer Max Reger; and Bach on the Fritts! , featuring major organ works by Johann Sebastian Bach). Plans are also underway for the production of several other CD releases in the future, including a recording of the complete organ works of ].S. Bach, and a recording of organ music by Craig Phillips. Martha Weber returned to teach bassoon at Binghamton University in 2006. She has also taught bassoon at Hartwick College. Currently, she is the Sixth Grade Band Director at Jennie F Snapp Middle School in the Union‘Endicort School District, where she is a trained mentor to new teachers. I n 2 0 1 4, Ms. Weber received the Founders Day Award for Excellence in Teaching. Ms. Weber is a Certiﬁed Adjudicator for Woodwinds for NYSSMA. She received her Bachelor’s Degree of Music in Music Education and her Master’s Degree in Bassoon Performance from Ithaca College. She has also done post graduate work at the American Band College. Ms. Weber has studied bassoon with Edward J. Gobrecht, Jr., David Ross and Julie Gregorian. Ms. Weber teaches bassoon lessons, bassoon methods, bassoon reedmaking and small ensemble coaching at Binghamton University. Performing experiences include the Binghamton Philharmonic, TriCities Opera, Orchestra of the Southern Finger Lakes, Cayuga Chamber Orchestra, Schenectady Symphony, Utica Symphony, BC Pops, Downtown Singers and various small ensembles. She maintains membership in the National Association for Music Educators (NAfME), New York State School Music Association (NYSSMA) and the International Double Reed Society (IDRS) for which she has been a presenter. Sarah Chandler is a member of the Binghamton Philharmonic, the TriCities Opera Orchestra and the Cayuga Chamber Orchestra and has performed as substitute clarinetist with the Glimmerglass Opera Orchestra. Her past orchestral experience includes the Milwaukee Ballet Orchestra, the New World Symphony and the Spoleto (Italy) Festival Orchestra. She was a prize winner at the International Clarinet Society Competition three times and won the grand prize in 1988. She served as Lecturer of Clarinet at Binghamton University from 2007 until 2013. She holds a BM from Northwestern University, an MA from the University o f Iowa and an MLIS from the University o f WisconsinMilwaukee. Her teachers include Russell Dagon, Robert Marcellus and Clark Brody. She also has pursued a career as an academic librarian, having most recently held positions at Binghamton University and Cornell University, in the School o f Industrial and Labor Relations. She is proud to serve her fellow musicians as current President of Binghamton Local 380, American Federation of Musicians and as Delegate to the Regional Orchestra Players’ Association. �Bi ngha m ton U niversity Music Depart ment’s Coming Events M a ﬁ é o u é é o w é é – M é m a é m m é é n é é é é o Friday, September 26 Piano blaster Class: Binghamton Philharmonic Orchestra 3:00 4:30 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Thursday, October] MidDay Concert 1:20 p.m. Casadesus Recital Hall free Thursday , October 9 – MidaDay Concert – 1:20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Saturday, October 11 Family Weekend Concert (Wind Symphony, Harpur Chorale and Womenfs Chorus) 3 p.m. Osterhout Concert Theater free Thursday, October 16 – MidDay Concert – 1:20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall free Friday, October 1 7 University Symphony Orchestra School Performance : We Like to Move I t ! l0 a.m. Osterhout Concert Theater Call (60 7) 7773004 for reservations Saturday, October 18 University Symphony Orchesaa: We L ike to Move I t ! 3 p.m. Osterhout Concert Theater $10 general public; $ 7 faculty/sta /seniors/alumni; $ 5 for students Thursday, October 2 3 – AlidDay Concert – 1:20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall free Friday, October 24 TriCities Opera presents Verdi ’s Rigoletto 8:00 p.m. The Forum Theatre – call (607) 7720400 for tickets Saturday, October 25 Early On : Music from Now and Then 7:30 p.m. – Fine Arts Building, Room 2 1 2 $ 5 general public, free for students Sunday, October 26 – TniCities Opera p resents Verdi ’s Rigoletto 8:00 p.m. The Forum Theatre – call (607) 7720400 for tickets Thursday, October 3 0 MidDay Concert 1:20 p.m. Casadesus Recital Hall Sunday, No vemberZ English and American Art songs 3 :00 p.m. Phelps Mansion, 191 Court Street, Binghamton S10 general public; BU students free with lD – for reservations call the Phelps Mansion at (607) 7224873. This concert is cosponsored by the Binghamton University Music Department and Phelps Mansion Museum. M é ﬁ n é é ﬂ a ﬁ é – é m m n ﬁ ﬁ n ﬁ é n é ﬁ c ﬁ b For tickets or io be added to our email list, visit anderson.binghamton.edu or call (607) 777ARTS. For a complete list of our concerts call (607) 7772592. visit music.binghamton.edu or become a fan on Facebook. If you were inspired by this performance. consider supporting the Department of Music with a ﬁnancial gift. Your support helps to continue the work of students. faculty. and guest artists and their contributions to our community, P lease make your donation payable to the Binghamton University Music Depanment, and send your check to BU Music Department. P.O. Box 6000. Binghamton, NY 13902. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus. Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF Choose this for any item where the file type is PDF. This template and others do not support mixed file types (PDF and image attached to same item). If you have mixed file types, you can either create another Omeka item or contact Digital Initiatives for assistance converting from pdf to image or vice versa. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 audio disc Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:41 45:24 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE74924">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE74924</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous'] Options: 'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) 'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) Single Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incurable Romantics Subject The topic of the resource Concerts Instrumental music Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Works by Schubert, Piazzolla, Strauss, Lovreglio, Brahms. Held at 7:30 p.m., September 20, 2014, Watters Theater. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Perry, Timothy Reitz, Margaret Biggers, Jonathan Weber, Martha Chandler, Sarah Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schubert, Franz, 1797-1828 Piazzolla, Astor Strauss, Richard, 1864-1949 Lovreglio, Donato Brahms, Johannes, 1833-1897 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/20/14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Binghamton Community Poets' Big Horror Reading Series Subject The topic of the resource American poetry -- 20th century; Oral interpretation of poetry Description An account of the resource The Binghamton Community Poets were founded in 1983 by native Binghamton poet, educator, and Harpur College alum Richard Martin. That year he started the The Big Horror Reading Series at a local coffee house. People associated with the series changed throughout the years but always included local writers who were dedicated to the idea of creating a space where literary art could flourish. For fourteen years, readings took place at various venues around the Triple Cities featuring nationally and internationally known writers while continuing to provide “open mike” time for local community writers and sometimes musicians. The series received funding from the New York State Council on the Arts, the Broome County Arts Council, and Poets and Writers, Inc., as well as public donations. Many of the readings between 1987 and 1996 were videotaped. Some of the writers who are featured on the videotapes include (in alphabetical order) Tish Benson, Charles Bernstein, Barney Bush, Wally Butts, Adrian Clarke, Suzanne Cleary, Robert Creeley, Joel Dailey, Jim Daniels, Jack Dann, Diane di Prima, Safiya Henderson-Holmes, Lance Henson, Bob Holman, Pierre Joris, Dave Kelly, Sylvia Kelly, Bill Kemmett, Peter Kidd, Dorianne Laux, Ed Ochester, Kate Rushin, Pamela Sargent, Patricia Smith, Lloyd Van Brunt. Also featured are former and current members of the Binghamton University faculty (in alphabetical order): David Bartine, Martin Bidney, Milton Kessler, Bob Mooney, Liz Rosenberg, Jerome Rothenberg, John Vernon. People associated with the series at one time or another (in alphabetical order): Ken Bovee, Alexis Cacyuk, Jerry Caswell, Tom Costello, Gerry Crinnin, Terry Day, Paul Dean, Zack Grabosky, Tom Haines, Connie Head, Michael Kelly, Tom Kolpakas, Richard Martin, Kate McQueen, John Miller, Bern Mulligan, Doug Paugh, Susan Prezzano, Phil Sweeney, Mike Tarcha. Venues for recorded readings (in chronological order): Swat Sullivan’s Hotel*, Benlin’s, Mad Murphy’s, The Tazmanian Embassy, The Amsterdam, Java Joe’s, Amp’s. The collection also <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/collections/show/31">includes twelve excerpted poems</a> that serve as an introduction. They are linked not only to the full individual readings in Rosetta but also to the catalog records for the books in which they are published. This creates a unique convergence experience, as the catalog record “comes alive” and users can see the writer and hear a poem from the book before they take it off the shelf to read. Digitization and DVD Production After the series ended in 1996, the videotapes sat in boxes for ten years. In 2006, since they were most likely degrading and losing both video and audio fidelity, a Memorandum of Understanding between the BCP and the Libraries was agreed on and the process of converting the videotapes to DVD-quality MPEG files for preservation and access purposes was begun. Many of them had glitches and dead spots and several others were not originals but copies, further adding to loss of video and audio fidelity. After the conversion, both the video and audio quality were enhanced to a degree from what was on the tapes.  Phase Two involved producing individual DVDs from the MPEG files. The files were literally “raw”: they started when the camera was turned on and continued without interruption until it was turned off, which meant there was often video of silent microphones and audio of irrelevant crowd noises and conversations. Editing these out made the DVDs much better than the raw files. Preservation and Expanded Access Due to copyright restrictions, the DVDs have been housed in Special Collections and had to be viewed there. This has definitely curtailed their usage. However, a recent development in Rosetta, our digital preservation system, has allowed us to offer a new form of access. Rosetta added a built-in video viewer, which allows the videos to be both preserved and streamed at the same time. In order to accomplish this, the DVDs had to be converted to MP4s to be compatible with the new viewer. The streaming versions are copies of the DVDs, which is why they contain menus and chapters which are not functional but are continuous play. The streaming versions will allow more users to be able to view and listen to this diverse, wide-ranging collection of readings. (N.B.: They are only accessible on campus or via campus VPN.) *The image on the item records is the iconic Swat Sullivan's Hotel, which was located on Binghamton's South Side. Swat's was the venue for the earliest readings in the video collection. The building was torn down in 1990. This image was downloaded from <a href="https://www.pinterest.com/pin/548805904585058425/">Pinterest</a>. If you are the rights holder, please contact The Libraries. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Binghamton Community Poets Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Digital publisher: Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bern Mulligan Erin Rushton Ben Coury David Schuster Rachel Turner David Floyd Sasha Frizzell Aynur de Rouen Nicholas Eggleston Alexxa O Bisnar (Student worker) Template: Universal Viewer / Rosetta Rosetta audio media Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 videodisc (124 min.) sound, color 4 3/4 in. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 124 min. Collection Big horror reading series (Binghamton Community Poets) Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE243136">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE243136</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ingrid Arnesen and Mary Beth O'Connor with "Open Mike" at the Amsterdam, November 16, 1993 Subject The topic of the resource American poetry -- 20th century Oral interpretation of poetry Description An account of the resource Features poetry readings from Ingrid Arnesen and Mary Beth O'Connor at the Amsterdam in Johnson City, N.Y. Several local poets read their works during "open mike" sessions before and after the featured poets. The event was held on November 16, 1993 and the readings were sponsored by the Binghamton Community Poets as part of their Big Horror Reading Series. Video edited by Bern Mulligan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Arnesen, Ingrid O'Connor, Mary Beth Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived DVD created from VHS recording of the event Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries In copyright Binghamton University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Binghamton Community Poets Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1993/11/16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PS615 B56 1993 11-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/125a1d123ae49e0b45354ad191fb3efd.mp3 8dd3a7f0ab3883cace72a88d0de8594e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interview Format Video or Audio audio Date of Interview 1 November 2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Avras Taha Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:49 minutes Language English Biographical Text Avras Taha was born in Duhok and lived there with his extended family, while his father was fighting for the Peshmerga. His family fled Kurdistan in 1996 and arrived in the United States via Guam. Avras has a degree in Civil Engineering from SUNY IT. He lives with his wife and a daughter in Syracuse. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Keywords United States; Kurdish Culture; Kurdish family; Eid celebration; Religion; Refugee; Turkey; Iraq; Guam; Binghamton; Education; Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Avras Taha Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 1 November 2014 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 AD: Okay, today is November 1, 2013 and I am interviewing with Avras Taha at Binghamton University. So, I gave your name, so Avras please tell me where and when you were born. 0:24 AT: March 8, 1998 in a village in Duhok in Kurdistan. 0:31 AD: Okay, are you married? 0:34 AT: No. 0:35 AD: Okay, and so, please tell me what you remember about Iraqi Kurdistan. Like, what is your first memory about your childhood? 0:50 AT: I remember um dirt roads, brick houses that was where the city, that was where I was born at and raised and we used to have a big house where four or five families would live in this big house. Each would have their separate room. Um, I remember there was a school right a block away from us, all the local kids would go to school and get educated. There was a four-five-hour shift, I believe for boys and after that would be girls’ time. And the girls would go ahead after the boys. We never went together. I remember playing soccer with my friends a lot on the dirt roads, there was no grass field but we played on dirt roads with a soccer ball if we had one. I remember those groceries, my dad used to own a grocery store I used to go up there to see what he had for fruit, maybe take a banana or apple, eat it, fill out the other markets were there as well. That is my memories of me being a child I guess. 1:58 AD: Okay, I think that is great. You said you lived in a big brick house. So, can you describe me that house, like how many stories the house was for example. 2:14 AT: There was actually one story, one floor story. There are six rooms, five or six rooms and a bathroom. Like I said there was four families I believe it was us with two-three of my uncles living in the same house, we each had a room. We had floors and back yard and our roofs were not, our roofs were flat like all around the house, as there is now a day they are flat, so a lot of time during the summer we go up there and sleep because it was a beautiful night out on top of the roof, but here with just one a big house with four-five, five or six rooms I cannot remember but we were four or five families sleep in one house, in each room. 3:05 AD: Okay, so how, there was one kitchen? 3:08 AT: One kitchen. 3:11 AD: So, where you guys cooking collectively? Everybody was cooking at the same time or sharing the meal? How did it work? I am trying to picture the life. 3:21 AT: Imagine the house is just another big house where each room is considered a house to a person or each room is considered a house for a family member and we would, I remember they cooked separately, they cooked separately for each, their own family, and whenever say there was a special event or a holiday then we all cooked together and have a big meal altogether, but it was mostly individual, separate meals and each would cook for themselves. So, that was pretty much– It was a big kitchen but it was separately kitchen where we all cooked for ourselves. 3:59 AD: I see, how about bathroom? How many bathrooms? 4:02 AT: There was one bathroom as well, it was one small bathroom where is you just go and do your business pretty much but it was one bathroom for all of us. 4:11 AD: So, the bathing; where were you guys bathing? In that bathroom? 4:17 AT: The toilet and the bath they are two separate, they were separated by the wall, somebody could have gone to the toilet where nobody would, and somebody with the bath at the same time. But then the bath was a big room where say my mom would wash a bunch of kids together, our family; three or four kid go and wash together but it was a big bath with a shower, no bath but a shower because it was all ground floor, so no tiles not of that, all solid ground. 5:01 AD: Did you guys share the days, I am trying to get the concept like Mondays was it your family’s bathing day for example or– 5:14 AT: Maybe, honestly, I do not remember– 5:17 AD: –I should talk to your mom about this. Okay. 5:20 AT: But when you going to go get yourself ready for prayer then you go there it is a quick wash yourself and then come back out, as far as bathing I do not, maybe one day somebody will may in another family. I honestly do not know. 5:37 AD: Okay, so were all the houses like that? In the area in your neighborhood? 5:42 AT: Mostly yes because Kurdish people just have a family tie they want to be together all the time and but if there is a house big enough where there is two or three families that can fit in to it and they would, and they would just make a separate, they would make a room use it as a house for a person, so yeah, I mean most– when I went back, when I went back I saw that was still like that. But now it is changing where, changing nowadays, back then it was like that. Where not many houses were built, we did not Kurds did not have any equipment, houses were shared on family members. 6:26 AD: I see. So, how long you lived in Duhok before you left? I am not going to ask now like where did you get when you left, but– 6:40 AT: Nine years. 6:42 AD: Nine years? So, you went to school? 6:46 AT: I did. 6:47 AD: And you said it was separated, the girls and boys? 6:53 AT: It was yes. They had in the morning from, we would leave from eight to twelve or nine to one it was we would go. It was Quran classes, Arabic classes and gym and math classes and all of that, but it was separate times all guys, all boys. I remember playing and then after we get done it was a five-hour shift there is no lunch break none of that, so we just go home and the girls would go after us. 7:24 AD: Why was it separated? 7:26 AT: So, boys and girls do not get conformable with each other. This is all Kurdistan, twenty years– AD: It is not like that now? AT: No, it is not like that now. It has changed, but back then, this was under Saddam Hussein and Muslim, Islam was still very, very powerful influence on Kurdistan. In the Middle East it is very hard, parents they do not like it when their kids, boys and girls go to school together, and they think that something might happen, they think they might influence each other even in that young age. Stop at a young age. 7:59 AD: But it is not like that anymore? 8:01 AT: No, it has changed a lot. 8:04 AD: Okay, so, when did you leave? Like you lived there all the time? I am trying to catch the events now. 8:17 AT: The house? 8:18 AD: No, you lived in that house for nine years? 8:23 AT: No, my, two of my uncles lived in a village on a mountain where our original village where our original village. My mom side lived in the city; my dad side lived in a village. So, and between summers when there was no school, after; there is holidays we mostly when it is warm we go to the village and visit my dad’s parents is up there. They had their own big place; they had their own house, and they had a big forest or mosque so we go up there for all the summer. And that was a lot of time we go up there and we had like, Kurdistan people they all family, we had like cousins, I just go one night and go stay with my cousins, stay over there for night, stay all day, so I mean I was in a house I remember the house but we did not stay in the house all day because too many family members then; it might get something happens or you just go somewhere else. 9:19 AD: I see. So, you spent the summers in the village? 9:23 AT: Mostly yes. 9:26 AD: What was your father’s job? 9:29 AT: He was army man, he was a Peshmerga. 9:34 AD: He was a Peshmerga? So, he was not around very much, was he? 9:37 AT: He was not no. That was what mom said he was not around because he was fighting a war especially back in those days– 9:45 AD: So, your mother raised you? 9:49 AT: Pretty much yeah. And that was the best part about having multiple families in one house where my mom’s sister could take care of us when mom is not home or my uncle could take care of us when they are not home, so those one thing like we had babysitters in the house take care of us just in case. But– 10:06 AD: But mostly female members because men were out. 10:12 AT: Working. 10:13 AD: How about grandfather, 10:16 AT: I did. 10:18 AD: Did you have a grandfather or mother in the house living in the same house? 10:19 AT: In the house, yes, my mom’s. My dad’s grandparents were in the village and my mom’s parent in the house where we living that is what we talking about, they had their own house too and it was right in the middle too and my dad, my grandpa would never, he was not he was just there pretty much, because he was old, he could not work, he was just there in the house, watching TV and watching kids and– 10:46 AD: So, who was bringing the bread to the house? 10:49 AT: My dad, I mean the government pays Peshmergas because they know what they– And my dad had actually a grocery store as well on a side when, because you do weekly basis, you do not every single day, you work say, you work ten days and then you have like five or six days off, and you work ten days and then you have, so on my father’s six days, I had two other brothers; Zeki and Zikri, so my dad opened up a grocery store up a block it was and he went to get to market brought fruits and vegetables and he set it up and fix it, he taught my brothers how run the store when he is not there so just in case anything happens. So, the government I believe they paid, they fund families money because it was hard mostly every men I mean every man I know them was a Peshmerga. 11:46 AD: They were leaving, they were absent. So, your older brothers would take care of the business while he was away. Okay so the money was coming in for food or other expenses but it was your mother who was taking care of everything, right? 12:05 AT: Yeah, pretty much. 12:07 AD: Was she a strict mom? 12:10 AT: No, not she would, not at all, she was a loving mother honestly. she biggest heart I know, and if she had a sick kid, she would walk her to the hospital like hold her and grab her on her shoulder and take her to the hospital, or walk her to the hospital like a mile away, but not she will take all, she would take care of us and she would enjoy life and she still does but in the meantime influence us about life; what is right and wrong at the same time. 12:43 AD: Okay. But when you guys misbehaved– 12:47 AT: That was where my aunts came in. [laughs] 12:49 AD: Not your mother? 12:53 AT: No, that wa s where my aunts came in. Actually, my aunts mostly because mom was never around. But my aunts I still remember some of the beatings they gave me. 13:02 AD: Really? 13:02 AT: Yeah, and my mom always jokes around me with like whenever go back to Kurdistan you could be treat as kid up to now. [laughs] 13:10 AD: I see, how about your father, is he strict? 13:12 AT: He is more of a family, religious man. Um, say you do something wrong, or you make a mistake, he sit you down and it could be along speech like, it will be a two hour speech about the same thing over and over and then just embeds in your head like it just craves in your head and like okay I am not doing this again because if I do this again you know and he just, he believes that everything happens for a reason honestly he believe that everything in God’s hand and whatever happens it happens, so he was not strict so much he liked a lot all the boys go to school all of us go to college study for whatever you wanted, he was like okay you want to be engineer, you want to a doctor, or you going to be you know he was just like do whatever you want to do. That was how he was. 14:00 AD: So, is that typical, no? 14:03 AT: No. Most parents tell the kids what they going to be, most parents like you are going to be home by 10 o’clock, or if you going to college be a doctor or this and that but my parents were so much as do what makes you happy, you know I do not want to force anything upon you and later in life you did not enjoy it and okay it is my fault you know, I do not want that. So. 14:33 AD: So, was your father involved in politics? I mean he was Peshmerga, but do you remember him like talking about it or doing um– 14:48 AT: Not when he was home, I would never anything about that, maybe to my uncle, maybe in a separate room, or separate whenever alone but not in the household, so. 15:01 AD: But now you are grown, do you know about his political views? 15:06 AT: He loves Kurdistan, he loves Duhok and he goes back every chance he can, but he as far as politics he just like every other Kurd he loves Masood Barzani, he loves what yeah so but umm not so much political view. I know he is, he watches news see what happens but not really into it, you know. 15:31 AD: Okay. Umm. So, you said you played soccer with the other kids so was there other like for the bayram, for the eid or Newroz or some other celebrations, you know like fun time, festivals big gatherings, weddings um, like what kind of, because you were a child, so your memory is different than your mother’s like what were you guys doing? Like what do you remember like one of the weddings or something? 16:14 AT: We, like during weddings especially basically, we just dancing and we were not kids, but we were in the middle looking at the people while they dancing or just jumping around, and around. We were in the streets but um other celebrations, honestly very vague memory about weddings and Newroz but I do not believe we did Newroz but I do not have any memories of Newroz we did there, I know one wedding when my uncle where, we drove and I was in a pickup truck we drove to his bride’s house picked her up and like we all dancing outside the window in the pickup truck dancing with a flag up with paper, no cloth and stuff like that just screaming and whistling doing all of that, and then they came back to the house and they danced around the house, and we in the middle just watching, moving around and around, running around that was pretty much, as far as other celebration, like I know Eid I loved Eid, I would go to every family or every cousin or every uncle to knock congratulate Eid and then they would come and there is pretty much, there was a candy like, and they would give me a dollar or they would give me some money and they would give me some kisses so I was looking forward to that because I would be rich that day. 17:37 AD: So, is there anything like an area they would set up for kids like have fun, activity during eids, like swings or you know like– 17:50 AT: We did have a playground but as far as Eid, Kurdish people, especially because on Eid I was like with my mom we go to Mosque, come back from mosque have our best of lunch and then everybody go out to their way and our young age, my older sister would take us to eids, Jihan, she took me and my twin Zhiyan, to Eid one time. You know funny story she was her and her two friends, they walked, it was me, it was two of her friends, me and Zhiyan, we were like six seven years old and I walking behind them as they go alright they stopped, stopping across road, busy cross road, they would go, we stop, Zhiyan like do not go, the car is coming, so we stopped they go, they have got all about us so we are staying right there crying on Eid some police officer came picked up us and took us to a station and called on a radio station like two kids are missing, I mean I remember this and I am in a booth, I am in the office crying and Zhiyan is like here is candy here is candy do not cry, we will be okay. I am like no, I want my mommy. They put us in the news and my uncle came picked us up but no one, there is, it is an oldest person mostly take the kids to Eid to door to door and knock on peoples door as we do nowadays to do, it is you go door to door to somebody older and you always wonder around and as far as Kurdistan being safe but still need the older parents you know just in case get lost. 19:19 AD: Yeah, but where were you spending the money? The money you collect. 19:24 AT: We go to a grocery store get soda, some candy some more candy. 19:27 AD: More candy. [laughs] 19:28 AT: Get a cake. It was nice. 19:33 AD: Um, was like during summer was it different, like activities you did in the village than you did in Duhok? 19:44 AT: Um, our village. Um, I know there is a pond in the village where I used to go swim a lot, I did not know how to swim but jump on and learn to teach myself to swim, a lot of kids would do that, there is a lot of apple tries and there is a lot of fruit tries and I climb a lot and fell one time, on a big tree like here and my mom almost panicked I broke an arm but no it is I mean it was different setting of life because you loved there was no limit to what you would do, you could play in a street or go play tag with friends, where in the village was more open and you could go on a forest going true fun, go to pond, be outside all day or all night like my memory very dim or very no much in the village because I usually spend few or may be a month or two in there. 20:47 AD: I see. In your house though I am going to go back to your house in Duhok, was, you guys all lived in one room? 20:58 AT: The family? 20:59 AD: The whole family? 21:00 AT: Yeah, it was a pretty big room when I say like twenty by twenty-five or twenty by something like that, it was a big room and we put a not carpet but four disdashas you know what I am talking about and then we would all fix our place and sleep, so yeah we would all sleep, and we all like eat and watch TV at the same room it was pretty much a house in one– 21:24 AD: You had TV? 21:25 AT: In the same room yeah. 21:26 AD: Okay. So and how many siblings you got? 21:30 AT: At that time, it was eight. 21:32 AD: At that time, and then the ninth one. 21:35 AT: Came in here. 21:36 AD: Came in here. But who is the oldest sibling, is it– 21:42 AT: Zeki. 21:43 AD: Zeki. Was he married at that time? 21:46 AT: No. We got all married once we came here. 21:49 AD: He came and got married here. Okay. So, you told me the schools. And everybody was Kurdish in Duhok like were you had like some Arabic- Arabs? 22:17 AT: There was Arabs in the village not so much in the city. 22:19 AD: In the village? 22:20 AT: In the village yeah, there are Arabs. 22:22 AD: How was the relationship? 22:24 AT: It was family, it was mutual, they understood that okay we both living in here, we both have, if they have a problem we solve it with each other you know– 22:33 AD: But it was not something like lovey-dovey “Oh I love you so much ̶” 22:38 AT: No. 22:38 AD: So, it was like mutual understanding, right? 22:40 AT: Yeah, it was a friendship but at the same time mutual. 22:44 AD: Like would you share like anything together? 22:48 AT: Yeah, you go over and give dish or mast (yogurt) or some bread as a khair and you would go they do the same thing, they probably, they could have, they once they kill animal or may be a sheep or a cow and they would bring some meet over to share with you, so it was like a neighborhood, it was a neighbor to neighbor type of friendship. 23:07 AD: But it was not so much reciprocal, like it was not like you go and they come, you spend a lot of time together? 23:15 AT: No, no, it was mutual. 23:17 AD: It was just a mutual respect to each other. Okay. So what language would you guys speak with Arab neighbors? 23:31 AT: Arabic most because we would go and our teacher teaches us Arabic and that is because Saddam Hussein and Arabic is the main language in the Middle East in general but in school they teach us how to read Quran, how to pray and how to speak Arabic as well– 23:48 AD: How is your Arabic? 23:50 AT: –I was the second grade when I left so, it is okay. I know basic words that is it. That was because I taught myself over here, I did not learn anything over there. 24:02 AD: Can you read? 24:04 AT: I could read Arabic. 24:05 AD: Yeah? Okay. Um, let me see. Okay, we talked about the house and, but the main language is Kurdish– 24:27 AT: Yes. 24:27 AD: Which dialect you speak? 24:30 AT: Badini. 24:31 AD: Badini? Is that the main dialect in Duhok area? 24:33 AT: In Duhok area yes, in Sulaymaniyah it is Sorani, in Hawler Sorani but in Duhok is mostly Badini. 24:41 AD: And in Turkey I think the most common one is Kurmanji right? 24:46 AT: Yeah. 24:46 AD: So, what is the difference between Kurmanji and Badini? 24:49 AT: It is just like the difference between Mandarin and the other Chinese language, I do not know. 24:56 AD: I see. But do you understand Kurmanji? 24:49 AT: Very little, there is. It is the same thing but different dialects, it is like, I want to say in English terms but everything the same, it is, there is words it is like in Arabic and phrases you understand but it is not so much everything else, you got to teach yourself. 25:20 AD: Yeah, because everybody so many people, so many countries speaks Arabic but I know there are like differences, like in Egypt, like the Arabic, they speak in Egypt is different than in Iraq, yeah, the dialect difference. So, but you had electricity in the house and running water– 25:44 AT: No, at that time it was very limited, we probably got hour, two maybe four hours a day for electricity and same with water, it depends, if you were lucky you would get it all day, but never the case, but you would get it time to time, whenever you got it you got lucky [chuckles] but it was we had water, it was it, it was not bad. 26:09 AD: But in the village there is no electricity or running water? Was it? There was? 26:15 AT: Electricity was very, like maybe an hour a day and night actually, but there is more water in the village than water in the city because village they have ponds and oceans, they got mountain ponds and rivers and all that they could generate water to the village. 26:34 AD: So, the village let me understand this, you said it is in the mountain? 26:38 AT: Yeah. 26:39 AD: So, what like, how people did, made a living in the village, like was it through animals, or farming like– 26:48 AT: Yeah farming, 26:48 AD: Farming? So, there was land to farm? 26:51 AT: There was a lot of land yeah. It was acres and acres of land and I do not know if you have seen a lot of movies where kid would take the sheep going go– 27:00 AD: Yeah like shepherd boys– 27:04 AT: Yeah same as that. They had a mast, they had pool, like I said they had ponds, they had their own gardens, fruits and vegetables– 27:15 AD: So, both men and women worked in the farms or it was mostly women’s job? 27:20 AT: No, it was men actually did most of the job, but women helped as well, but it was mostly men, my dad. I do not know if you have been with these old guys but they all love to garden. They all love to, we have back yard, we have flat, my house, we have flat pretty much back yard, my dad took the far corner and he had took a big space and put vegetables; cucumbers, tomatoes and put peach trees in there, apple trees, they love gardening, these guys, it is their passion as much because it is their roots, it comes from their roots, but females help us, they go and pick grapes and pick apple and pick those. 28:09 AD: How is the setting in village? Is it like women mostly stay home and like is there a like coffee house or something, men get together? 28:22 AT: No, you would go over somebody’s house and you maybe have tea but the ladies mostly stay home they make bread, make lunch, make breakfast, take care of the kids, clean the house and do all the chore making, make cheese, or– 28:39 AD: Yogurt? 28:40 AT: Yeah, make yogurt, mast. 28:41 AD: Okay. How about your family’s attitude toward other ethnic groups? What I mean where there any Turkmens in your area? AT: No. 29:07 AD: No? just Arabs? But there are some Turkmen in Iraq I know. 29:09 AT: It is like I said my memory is vague but I remember especially in the city where we in urban area, where we lived were mostly Kurdish people I know– 29:18 AD: So, how was your family’s attitude toward the other minorities, not minorities, in that case they are majority but maybe in your village they are minority right, toward Arabs? 29:32 AT: My dad was a fighter and he fought against Iraq and Saddam and fought against Turkey to help, so his mindset pretty much hates them you know, but and we as kids they never really told us about anything else, so we pretty much learnt from everything, we learned to like okay Arab that Saddam Hussein did this to us, we hate him for that reason. Turkey did this to us and that is the reason they hate us, and we hate them as well, but they, you learn as you grow up, they never really bring that up towards you, so but minorities like, somebody like Arab want to come to Kurdistan we will not treat them as bad person or somebody else, make and be, want to change himself, so he is allowed you know, so Kurdistan since Saddam Hussein or before that is one of the safest place in Middle East and crime is very low so it always been like that and they kept it like that. 30:37 AD: But how about the school curriculum? How was it? 30:43 AT: What do you mean? 30:44 AD: Like did you guy study history for example or– 30:49 AT: All I remember is for a second grade they, maybe third and fourth, fifth they did, but they taught us how to pray, they taught us Quran, they taught us Arabic, and they taught as math and there was a gym class. 31:06 AD: Okay, so there was like no social studies? 31:09 AT: No, not that I remember, maybe later. 31:14 AD: Like there was no preaching about how great Iraqi land is or anything like that? 31:22 AT: No, I do not remember that. I remember Arabic and Quran classes. 31:28 AD: Okay, so how was the town of Duhok at that time? What kind like of businesses I mean like– 31:49 AT: It was local business, there was a bread factory, there was a few grocery stores, there was a few market were sodas and candies all that stuff but it was very poor, it did have a school, it did not have a mosque but the environment in general was very poor like the roads and the environment was very dirty and you cannot really go, I mean you did not see cars come and go at all especially where we lived. So, I mean there were markets and all of that I mean the living condition was not that good. 32:23 AD: So, it looked poor? 32:36 AT: Yeah. 32:36 AD: Yeah, and not money people had cars? 32:41 AT: No. I mean you had to be rich to get a car or you had to own a business for reasons to have a car but everything else was local, you could walk to the hospital, or you could walk to the mosque, you could walk to the school. 32:51 AD: Were there any like rich people, rich neighborhood? 32:57 AT: They neighborhood we were living not so much but there was a neighborhood farther from us they were rich maybe because they were in government or something like that, but they were rich people but settled the city though. 33:12 AD: They were Kurdish? 33:15 AT: Yeah. A 33:15 D: Where were they getting the money? 33:17 AT: I have no idea. 33:19 AD: You do not know? 33:20 AT: No. 33:20 AD: And you do not know what kind of business they were doing, so they were wealthy? 33:24 AT: I do not know. 33:26 AD: Okay. See that your father would answer this question, right? So how important was religion in your family when you were growing up? 33:38 AT: Now it is still important, very important, like number one, number two in the most important things at the family. My dad is a family man, he loves family but my mom is religious woman and she loves, she is very, very religious woman and together you just become that person, so every time there is a prayer time, every time is time to prayer she will ask you prayed yet even at this age, have you read Quran yet, so it is very, very important. Do not do this, do not do that. This is bad, this is haram, this is– it is very, very important keep up with your prayers, keep up with Quran and do not lose your faith and so, it is important, still is. 34:24 AD: So, very strict religious, um– 34:27 AT: Strict, not so much, not like they will not, they will tell us the basics of Islam and they will tell us okay drinking bear is haram, do not ever do that you know, do not ever smoke weeds it is haram do not do that but like as far as strictness, it was not they are strict it was too much what is right and what is wrong and what is good to be? 34:48 AD: Do you smoke? 34:49 AT: No. 34:50 AD: Drink? 34:51 AT: No. 34:52 AD: Okay, you do not do anything against the Islamic religion, so you follow the rules, even today, right? AT: Yup. 35:06 AD: Okay. And do you pray five times a day? AT: I do. AD: You do? AT: Yeah. 35:13 AD: How do you manage it, like– 35:15 AT: I wake up five, six thirty everyday no matter what, I mean I do not even stay up long, I wake up in general in I am a morning person and then afternoon is mostly if I am in school or at my work and my co-workers and my teacher would understand what my tradition is and I make time, but I just mostly make in time and having understanding when time is praying making available time for that five or ten minutes going doing your prayer, but it is simple enough, it is very. I mean there is time we could, you have something important going on or you travelling or something like that where prayer you might miss, you could make it up with another prayer, or make it up later that is understandable. 35:56 AD: So, everybody follows the rule in the family, everybody prays? 36:02 AT: Yes. 36:02 AD: Even the youngest one? 36:04 AT: No, not yet. She is learning. She was born here she has a pass. 36:09 AD: So, she is Americanized? 36:11 AT: Yeah. [laughs] 36:30 AD: Uh, so now I am going to ask you about other events taking place when you were growing up. Did you have any interruptions either when you were living in Duhok or when you were in your village? Like due to political events or conflict that you had to leave? 36:56 AT: Eight days after I was born Halabja happened, um– 37:04 AD: Of course, you do not have a memory of that. 37:07 AT: I do not because I was eight days old, I was a newborn but I remember my mom told me the story my uncle put me on his shoulder and we would walk pretty much run away from where we lived and go up, I think we went up to Iran, we went to corner of Iran and stayed there, I am not 100 percent on that what she said. And we escaped Kurdistan, we went to Iran, Iran borders because of Halabja and we understand that Saddam Hussein’s main target was to kill all Kurdish and demolish Kurds from (name of an area) and he was doing that village to village, so we all ran away, I know she said two of my uncles died but she said that I was eight years (days) old then my mom took my sister in back and my uncle took me and pretty much walking for miles and miles to Iran. But um, after that there was still like, other than Saddam Hussein there was no other conflicts I know, I mean Saddam Hussein was the main enemy towards Kurdistan but, I mean we did run away few times, one time actually for that Halabja thing but that is all I remember. And now I was told about that, so. 38:30 AD: You were told about that, so you do not remember like any event that you picked up and left? 38:42 AT: Not at all, no. 38:43 AD: You do not remember? How about during the first Gulf war? 38:46 AT: When was that, (19)93? (19)92? 38:47 AD: (19)91. 38:48 AT: (19)91? I do not remember, we did out of what, three, four. I do not remember. AD: You do not remember. 39:04 AT: I do not, 39:05 AD: Okay. 39:06 AT: I only remember my last (19)94, (19)95, (19)96 years that was when I was like eight, seven years old so, but before that there is no memory. 39:16 AD: There is no memory, so what do you remember that was like before you guys made a decision to move to the United States, so what do you remember then? 39:27 AT: The day? What happened? 39:29 AD: Yeah. 39:29 AT: As I told you before Saddam Hussein’s main thing was killing Kurds but my dad was a Peshmerga so he received a letter as many other did as well saying that if you want to take your family to a better place, America, more land of opportunity, land of safety, take your family from here and live a better life and a lot of Peshmergas turned that down, too much pride securing your homeland you know. And my dad is like I am taking my family and he asked his dad, and he asked his parents, and his parents like do whatever is best for your family you know, he asked his brothers what they thought about it and everybody was like do what is best for your family. And he was like the best thing to take my family to Kurdistan, and that day we all, there is a week before we left and the day before we leave, they are all dancing and all cheering and happy like okay this is something for him for going from Kurdistan, and that time nobody slept, everybody was talking, few hour before we leave everybody started crying so the joys of that day went to a very sad emotional day; we all drove, the whole family drove, it was two trucks I was in an SUV I believe and I slept half way drive to the Turkey, to the camps. It was– 41:00 AD: You went to the camps in Turkey? Which– Where did you go? 41:04 AT: I do not know what is called. 41:05 AD: In the eastern part of Turkey? 41:07 AT: Yeah. 41:08 AD: Okay. 41:09 AT: We drove up there, there, we did some paper work, they put us in tents, we stayed there for a long time, they would, my dad and my mom, usually my dad would go and get soup and bred and food for us, we all stayed in the tents and sleeping, just wait and wait, until they came and like you guys going to get boarded to buses, you guys going to walk buses like few miles away and the buses going to take you to airport with all paper work and you fly out of here. So, we were all pretty much a lot of Kurds, thousands and thousands of Kurds going, and walking to buses and all fill in the buses and most people standing, there is no seats left in the buses and we would go to paper work and go to airport and fly to Guam. So, we went from this cold in the Middle East cold, dirty, living in the tent just waiting to this beautiful island, one of the most beautiful islands I have ever been to, you know so like [all to one eighty in] life. We went to Guam, I do not, I remember that morning I am like sun so beautiful I am not sleeping today, but they put us in a house, it was a two story house, there was another Kurdish family was Sorani family and we both lived in the house for like three months until they moved us to another part of Guam, to another section of Guam it was on the military base because there was a war going one that year I believe because it was mostly military base but they gave us, they moved us to another house it was just a beautiful place, green grass, beautiful sun, beautiful day, every day, was beautiful. The military people were very, very kind, very happy, very positive, they accepted us, we did not understand each other but we like understood were we are what we are doing here. They are very just looking out for us and security and make sure nothing was happening, and they gave us candy, work around with candy in their pocket and kids come by and give candy to kids, there a movie theatre I saw my first movie in theatre in Guam I remember it was Scare Face, I still remember they had, there was circus there as well, they had firework one night, and one time it was Newroz, I think we had Newroz there, yeah we had Newroz in Guam one time and we had a big party and then a lot of military guys were just standing like what is going on and few of us just grabbed their finger pig and started dancing, teach them how to dance, and it was nice. And then after that we just came back to our home, they got– we were just waiting for paper work to get fixed. That was how everybody was family just waiting for families until they get leave and come back to America, so we stayed pretty much in Guam for six months and then came to, I believe it was Los Angeles for one night and then came to Maryland, we stayed in Maryland. 44:07 AD: How long did you stay in Maryland? 44:09 AT: Six months. 44:10 AD: Another six months? 44:11 AT: Another six months, then we came up to New York. 44:14 AD: Did you pick Binghamton? 44:19 AT: No. We picked Maryland. 44:21 AD: You picked Maryland? 44:22 AT: Yeah, my dad picked Maryland. 44:43 AD: What is it? 44:44 AT: My dad picked Maryland. 44:25 AD: And why couldn’t just to stay in Maryland? 44:28 AT: The neighborhood we stayed in and it is a region work for refugees but it was pretty much where there is two other Kurds families, the Sorani families not the Kurdish Badini families as well lived in there. We got to know each other and, but every night there were sirens, every night there were gun-fight, I mean there were gunshots, I mean it was a very bad neighborhood. We did not understand nobody I mean there was no language, like there was language barrier between all of us especially in the school it was all black school and like so it was very, one of the most bad place in Maryland and one of my dad’s best friend in New York like how is your situation, and they were discussing each other’s situation, then Zebari, my dad’s best friend, Karwan’s father, he said yes there is a bunch of families here, life here is good, is very nice, you should move here, and my dad is like alright. So, we just packed up everything and asked the other Kurdish family, they wanted come as well and the other families came as well, we came up here together. 45:36 AD: Who are those people? Did I interview with them? 45:40 AT: No, [mumbles] they are Sheikh and Zailah, but he is very political I do not think he will go though, because he’s very political, but the lady she went back her brother died, she went back to Kurdistan and so, she went there with my dad, they are still there. 46:03 AD: I see. So, I forgot to ask you, I want to go back to Kurdistan, like did you have enough food when you were in Kurdistan or like when you came to The United States did you like abundant of food like it was not like, that was what I want to get, like how was it when you compare? 46:32 AT: Kurdistan was breakfast meal, and lunch meal and then dinner, and it was pretty much for the whole family, and over here we make extra stuff, there is leftovers you know, it would be different but over there it was, we all ate enough to get full from the food that my mom made, but over here there is always extra left, always chicken left, there is always rise left, always soup left, they make extra just in case somebody comes over just in case, somebody wants to eat or somebody wants to eat extra. 47:06 AD: So, you never went hungry in Kurdistan? 47:11 AT: No, never, no. 47:12 AD: No? you always had the food. 47:13 AT: Yeah, like I said my dad was a family man and his main thing was to take care of his family, his family members– 47:24 AD: I see. So, you were a child, you went to live in these places then you ended up here. So, the life continued like in Kurdistan, the routine, you know like the eating, the you know like everything you guys in the house is it still the same way? 47:46 AT: It is similar, very very similar, we still on the floor, we still eat on the floor, we still make the same Kurdish dishes but we still sit around and just talk, there is one part in the house where there is disdashas we all sit in the floor instead of couch, the couch is two side but we sit on the floor and just have drink tea and just talk and have seats and all of that, very similarities upon that but there is a big TV, there is a nice furniture, it is warm, AC, so that kind of changes but, I mean there is similarities and differences, we try to remember our roots and who we are and what we are and not change especially when our young ones coming up, then see what we are, you know, so especially, but in the floor we still in the floor I mean other people have tables but we still eat on the floor, we still put it. 48:41 AD: Do you have a table? 48:43 AT: We do have a table– 48:44 AD: But you do not use it– 48:45 AT: We do not use it. No. 48:46 AD: Like when you study, where do you study? On the floor or on by the– 48:50 AT: On the table. 48:51 AD: On the table. When you study you use the table, not to eat. 49:00 AT: No. 49:01 AD: No, I understand that, you know that part of the world, I understand that. 49:06 AT: My sisters and my sister-in-law they still wear the Kurdish clothes at home, like they were that long dress as you see Kurdish people back in Kurdistan where they still wear that at home as well just like my mom, just like my sisters-in-law, so they kept that in there as well. So, yeah, I mean there is few similarities where you come to my house like oh this is American house, no you understand the difference. 49:28 AD: Definitely. Do you go back to Kurdistan? 49:33 AT: I went back (20)09 yeah. 49:35 AD: Just one time? 49:36 AT: One time yeah, twelve years after– 49:40 AD: And what did you think? 49:42 AT: It was different, it was a lot different, I mean– 49:46 AD: How? 49:47 AT: There was a lot of cars on the streets, a lot of taxis, there are big houses, big buildings, more, bigger shops, bigger markets and there was. It was not just staying in the city, you could walk anywhere you want. No, you had tickets, grab a cab go to the shopping, or grab a cab to one of your friend’s house or your relatives because everybody, back in (19)88, back in (19)93, (19)94 everybody was in one local community where you could just walk like I said for Eid you could walk to somebody’s house but no at night you could grab a taxi I mean tell the drive you to some of your cousin’s house because everybody moved little bit farther from each other and grabbed the house and like I told you when I said there was like a house, there was a big house for four, five families who’s one house one family, everybody had their own, like the whole one family had their own house, there was bigger, bigger market, bigger streets, all of that. It was roads improved, soccer field, there is gardening, you just feel the fresh air in the environment where it was different. 51:00 AD: So, do you plan to go back? 51:03 AT: Visit? 51:04 AD: Yeah. 51:04 AT: Yeah, I will plan going back visit. 51:06 AD: But you do not plan to go back to live? 51:09 AT: I do not know. 51:10 AD: You do not know? 51:11 AT: No, I am not going to go back to live. I mean depends if I marry somebody over there and they want to. But no, I do not think I am staying and living there. No. 51:20 AD: How about marrying? Would you marry someone from U.S. or would you– 51:27 AT: That is my thing, I am marrying somebody over here. I am not– There is a paperwork you going to through, marrying somebody over there and there is a time frame– 51:36 AD: No, no, no. I mean American? 51:38 AT: American? 51:39 AD: Yeah. I do not mean– 51:41 AT: No, you going to talk to my mom about that, I do not think she will allow that. She worries too much and she is, one thing is divorce, you like how do know like they not going to divorce you, every time I am like comment no she can divorce you, and she does not want the kid been her any way so, but no American, that won’t pass my parents. 52:03 AD: No? 52:04 AT: No. My dad might, but my mom will not. 52:07 AD: How about a Kurdish person but not from your town, let us say someone who came from Turkey, a Kurd, would you marry? 52:21 AT: Yeah, my mom would accept, like my mom is like she is a Kurdish, a good girl, comes from a good family like any other mother and she behaves well, then yes. 52:33 AD: Or let me just exaggerate a little bit, or a girl from Palestine, she is still Muslim and she, herself is a minority too, she is just not Kurdish, would she allow that? 52:50 AT: Probably not. I do not know. 52:52 AD: So, the person has to be Kurdish, not just Muslim? 52:58 AT: Yeah. Someone Kurdish, yeah. Kurdish would be the most important thing honestly. I think so. I mean I would love to marry whoever I want but I do not think my mom will be happy. 53:13 AD: So, they make, the family makes the decision? 53:17 AT: The family, like I will tell them, I will marry this person, can you, what do you think about that, and they say okay, but there is no arranged marriage, I told them like you are not arranging marriage for me. 53:29 AD: Oh, is that still going on? 53:31 AT: There is still arranged marriages. 53:32 AD: Did Karwan I did not ask that question, it is not arranged. Is it? 53:35 AT: No, not arranged. He was introduced her from someone of my friend. They went over for dinner and introduced each other and they got to talk to each other a little bit then few months later they made decision, all right we will ask for in a marriage after they talked and got to know each other better. 53:55 AD: Yeah. 53:57 AT: So, I mean arranged marriage is very, very little, maybe for girls somewhat, for guys not so much. 54:05 AD: But still, the family, your parents would put pressure on you, the person needs to be Kurdish and Muslim right? 54:15 AT: Like you have to understand, you know what your mom will approve or will not approve of and your mother’s approval and your parent’s approval is the most important thing, especially in Islam but your parents did not approve somebody then the whole marriage is a shame, where the whole parent marriage is not good– 54:30 AD: You need to get a blessing, right? 54:32 AT: Blessing, yeah. 54:36 AD: So, you live your life at home? Traditional Kurdish family life? Right? 54:47 AT: Yeah. 54:48 AD: But when you are not home, like if I see you on the street I could not tell? 54:55 AT: No. 54:55 AD: You continue your life as an American? 54:57 AT: Pretty much yeah. 54:58 AD: So, you kind of balanced it out. 55:02 AT: You have to yeah you have to yeah. Especially living here, you have to balance it. Being home, being Kurdish, eating Kurdish, talking Kurdish, is different than being outside. Yeah, you got to balance it out, you going to be somebody else, you cannot just be the same person you know. 55:20 AD: Correct, correct. So, since you were only a child, you cannot really make so much analogy like how it is over there and how it is here because you had very limited memory. 55:44 AT: –Might did that for you, yeah. Not so much like I said I was nine years old when I left, so. 55:55 AD: Yeah, it is pretty young. So, I think I– and I know your activities, you are pretty active in the community and in the Kurdish Regional Government, how did you decide to take that duty? 56:17 AT: Not so much with the K.R.G. (Kurdish Regional Government), but the A.K.C. (American Kurdish Council). 56:19 AD: A.K.C. yeah. 56:20 AT: They, Karwan and Zeki were, they wanted to do something for the community, they wanted, since we had a bunch of students and bunch of active people, they wanted like let us get an organization, let us get a club for the community, let us do events and spread the word of Kurdish people and they did this (20)06 – (20)07. Back then they added people and they added me and saw me as an active person, they could volunteer and all that stuff and Karwan like, do you like to join, I am like I like to help. And within the past two years I was the most active, Karwan had a position at K.R.G. and he had to step down and we saw me us the most active member of the A.K.C. and he was alright would you because I did most events and I did help a lot of stuff and he was like you would be the most eligible, or you would be the most eligible candidate to run for president just keep this A.K.C., keep going do more events. So, that is where and I like it because I like doing events, I like running things especially this year we have done a bunch of them in Kurdish community in general just keep them connected. We have always back when we first came here there was two location in Binghamton, there was one Carlisle where fifteen to twenty families live in apartments and there was Saratoga Heights like ten or fifteen families lived there and everybody saw each other every day, especially for Eid or any other events, but now families got richer and people are spread out from Apalachin to Vestal, to Binghamton and it is very hard seeing each other, especially work and school so. Our main thing is alright let us get people back together, you know let us keep that bond strong because we used to have a strong bond in community but it is not there anymore especially when new families coming and introducing them as well. So that is our main goal and then our main thing is spreading the word of Kurds and just let the people what Kurdish are because very, very angry about Kurdish people are and where Kurdistan is and understandably, honestly, I mean I do not know where, I am not very geographically smart about the world but it is good to know where Kurdistan is. I have met a lot of classmates, a lot of colleagues, a lot of teammates, I have to tell them about Kurdish people, and I am like let us make it big to an event, and make it a big event, and tell them what Kurdish people are, who they are you know. So A.K.C. is pretty much. 58:55 AD: What Kurdish people are and what they went through. 58:59 AT: Especially that. There is no way you know how about that it is very very– 59:04 AD: No, well I am doing my part. 59:06 AT: Yeah, you are doing a good job. 59:10 AD: Yeah, I am doing my part. [laughs] I am sure talking about it a lot. So, you said new families, new families are still coming? 59:21 AT: Especially this year, there are eight new families. 59:26 AD: So, what is, I keep saying sixty-five families, it went up now? 59:30 AT: There are sixty-eight families now. 59:32 AD: Sixty-eight? So, am I going to be talking to these new families sometime soon? 59:40 AT: If you want to, if you want to I could see if they could, but there English is very limited so– 59:45 AD: So that is where you guys come in. 59:48 AT: Okay, yeah. 59:49 AD: Okay, you, Nergiz, Ridwan. I heard Ridwan just had a baby I sent him an email, yeah. I did not even know the wife was pregnant, she was so skinny. 59:56 AT: Yeah, she was big when was the last time you saw her? 1:00:00 AD: Halabja. 1:00:02 AT: It is a long time ago. Yes, she had a baby girl on Monday I believe. 1:00:13 AD: Yeah. So, I sent him an email, I did not want to call him, I am sure he is pretty busy now. 1:00:19 AT: Especially two kids. 1:00:21 AD: Yeah, well that is good Avras thank you so much, really now I am happy that we went over, I hope it was not so repetitious for you. 1:00:34 AT: No, last time I came, it was Armanj, he mostly spoke, I was just there with few comments here and there. 1:00:39 AD: Okay Great. This is wonderful, so let us see. Thank you. 1:00:44 AT: You’re welcome. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 22 June 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bruce Watson Biographical Text Bruce Watson is an educator and author who specializes in American culture and history. He has written several books and feature articles for Smithsonian, the Los Angeles Times, the Boston Globe, and American Heritage. Watson also publishes a blog called the Attic. He has taught at Deerfield Academy, the University of Massachusetts Amherst, Bard College, and Hampshire College. Watson received a Bachelor's degree in Journalism from the University of California, Berkeley, and a Master's degree in Elementary Education from the University of Massachusetts Amherst. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:39:28 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Date of Digitization 22 June 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Mississippi; Protests; Freedom; 1960s; Volunteers; South; Race; Black;  Fannie Lou Hamer; Vote; London B. Johnson; Free speech movement. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bruce Watson https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5de4f9e33ff4a1ab6455ef14b7560b46.jpeg 6d87d1a9fd9f7c095e5356d448860d95 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c8d7b160a0ccec6cbbf6f7a1374ae4f1.mp3 423f7bde9676eedfbf7a6a5f211cf969 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-10-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Doug Bradley Biographical Text Doug Bradley, a native of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is an author, educator, and veteran. For almost thirty years, he worked as a communications professional at the University of Wisconsin where he still teaches. Bradley wrote several books including Who'll Stop the Rain: Respect, Remembrance, and Reconciliation in Post-Vietnam America. Bradley is the co-author with Craig Werner of We Gotta Get Out of This Place: The Soundtrack of the Vietnam War. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Bethany College and he also earned a Master's degree in English from Washington State University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:56:41 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Vietnam; Music; Vietnam war; Vietnam veterans; People; Song; Home; Book; Draft; Memorial Wall, Boomer generation; Soldiers; Army. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Douglas Bradley Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 26 October 2022 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:03 All right, so I am, I am going to be interviewing today with Doug Bradley, who was co-author of the book, We Gotta Get Out of This Place: The Soundtrack of the Vietnam -Vietnam War. His co-author is Dr. Craig Werner. And Doug thank you very much for doing this interview with me. And I want to start out by this quote from Marie Stir [Heather Marie Stir] from the back of your book, it is on the- your back cover. And it states here. "The diversity of voices and songs reminds us that the home front and the battlefront are always connected. And the music and the war are deeply intertwined. In reading this book, there is no better words than this. Describe it. It is unbelievable." And I, and I just want to start out by finding out I know you served in Vietnam. But could you describe your growing up years, your college years, your high school years, your parents background and your connection to music as a youngster, if you can go from there? DB: 01:11 Sure, I would be glad to. I go from there and keep going. And I think I think you were really put your finger on it by alluding to that quote that had Marie Stir now, a scholar in your own right, a prophet, Southern Mississippi, and a former student of Craig [Craig Werner] that UW Madison, she put it so well, because you could not separate the music from the time from the memories from the people from the experience. And that is what music does. And I am sure you and I will talk a little bit more about that. Yeah, I was a member of the baby boomer generation, son of World War Two dad, inner city neighborhood I grew up with in southwest Philadelphia, was populated by inner city dads who had I mean, World War Two dads who had survived the war, won the war, saved the world from fascism. And we were ready to get on with their lives. And best way to do that was to reaffirm their existence by having kids. So, they were a bunch of us. And I could have grown up probably in any inner city anywhere in America, the wife was pretty much saying mom stayed home dad went to work. Kids played around, you know, did their own thing abroad were basically on their own. So, the mother's call was coming in for dinner. And, you know, was not bucolic. But it was it was what a lot of kids I think my age experienced in post-World War Two America. The interesting thing about my household was that my there was always music filtering through the house. And by that, I mean, my dad was a- would be crooner. I think if he had had his druthers he would have, he would have been like Frank Sinatra or Johnny Hartman. He was always singing a beautiful show tune in a lovely tenor voice that he had, my dad had a beautiful voice. And so, there was always something you know, emanating from him. And part of that was from his growing up in that era, the music was an escape for him from a tough life. He has a kid. And he found solace in it. He even for a while during World War Two after breaking his legs in jump as a paratrooper. And before being sent to Madison, Wisconsin, Brian now lives to be trained as a radio operator in the Army Air Force. He, when they were trying to figure out what to do with him, he was at a USL club in Texas, and started to sing almost every night. And because, you know, people like I was singing along to some of the shout tunes. And he did a stint there with I think it was Lionel Hampton's half-brothers, who was trying to encourage my dad to maybe think about a career postwar as-as a singer in a band. That never happened. But he always had a he always had a song and my brother on the other hand, four and a half years older than they were in Philadelphia. So, as we were growing up in the (19)50s, he was born in (19)43. He was coming of age. He was part of a whole music scene in Philadelphia. And Stan do watch street corner groups white and black, you know, often, you know, the some of the early groups that the Crests, Del-Vikings, like some of the guys my brothers saying that were mixed in terms of race integration, that was the music nothing music does to us and forth. And he was always coming up with a lyric or a song. To cool to go on bandstand, they I thought they were better than bandstands. So, they went to the, to the Police Athletic League dances there were Danny & the Juniors and Bobby Rydell and Frankie Avalon and Fabian would show up and sing their song. So, you know, there is, so there is that music. My mom is sort of playing opera when she can from her Albanian parents, you know, who were big on Verdi and Mazzetti. And so, you know, you just always had music around the household but, and then for me and my brother, we started to buy 45 records with our allowance, because we had our music started to begin to define us, Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, were not my parents’ music, or my grandparent’s music. They were ours. And they will begin to differentiate us and distinguish us as a music generation. And, you know, I went to I did six years in parochial school and Philadelphia and my dad got a transfer in a job that he had selling, Maxwell House food, coffee, and two years in Youngstown, Ohio, and then four years in Pittsburgh, where I went to high school, registered for selective service when I turned 18 in Pittsburgh, went to Thomas Jefferson High School, which was right outside of Claritin, PA, where the big steelworks were and the middle managers of US Steel did not want their kids growing up with the guys that did all the grunt work. So, they made basically made a village up the hill from Claritin called Pleasant Hills. Sounds like you know, a typical American playing the city on the hill. So, their kids could go to school with other white kids and not and not deal with the people that worked. The day laborers that worked in the steel mills that three shifts a day with steel was booming in America. By came of age, their music, again, so much a part of the light, you know, great DJs you know, great playlists, everybody had the same top 20, you listen to the same music, we all did his generation who was AM radio before it was FM. And so, we all had the same soundtrack. And we sang along the same music when the Beatles came, you know, we had the best of Motown the best of the British invasion, the best the country, and they all sort of spoke to each other and played with each other. So, it was a great time to be growing up. We had this great record collection, every bit of [inaudible] and since we were kids and Philadelphia. So, I got the play, I was a designated DJ for sock, hops and dances, made a little money. But always again, you know, buying a new record listening to a new record trying to describe a new sound, you know, turning on audiences to music, could not sing a lyric did not play an instrument. But again, using music as a way to sort of, you know, not only survive, but to define who I was, and what I thought my generation wanted to listen to. And that parlayed into college. I know as a kid raised a Catholic, I had aspirations of Notre Dame where I got accepted but could not afford it. I applied to a couple other big-name schools that great grades as a good college and a good high school student. But I did not have the money. My you know, my parents that I had instilled in my brother and I mainly my mom, that she wanted us to get an education and to take education seriously and go to college. There we were first generation my brother went to California State University in California, PA, not in California, California, and became a very successful chemistry teacher for 35 years in the Philadelphia area. And I was an English major at Bethany College where I got a scholarship and a loan and a work commitment became a BMOC. And while I was at Bethany, I became social chairman. And in a time when we had a we had a nice allotment from students SEC fees for entertainment. And we had a co-co-chair for a while and then I pretty much ran it myself for two and a half years. We were dealing directly with the agencies and getting right to the talent who wanted money upfront and wanted, you know, things provided like a sound system and light system, both of which we had purchased that were top notch run by good student workers. So, over the course of from 1967, we got elected and our platform we ran on was- we were going to bring smoking and miracles to campus. And we won the election in February and smoking and miracles appeared in March. SM: 09:38 Wow. DB: 09:39 And from there we had 18 other amazing groups over the course of two and a half years. Everything from the Iron Butterfly, the Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee to Josh White Jr. to Ian and Sylvia [Tyson] to Spanky and Our Gang to the 5th Dimension to the Association. I mean, just about everybody that had a number one record- at the time Jefferson Airplane, to Surrealistic Pillow, Somebody to Love was at the top of the charts. And we had them at Bethany College. So, it was a, it was just a great stretch. And of course, it got me. It was funny, a couple of the people that are working with guys in New York that work for the agencies and these groups directly said to me, you know, would you be interested in getting into this business? Well, the problem was, there was the other business going on. You know, when I register for selective service, I was classified student deferment to S, meaning as I was making my way progressing through college, making my grades, I was not going to get drafted. Now, before 1968, I graduated in (19)69. Before (19)68, you could keep your deferment through graduate school. So, if I was going to go to law school, which I was going to when I was accepted, at Boston University, I could have kept my deferment. If I say I had graduated from college in 1967. I graduated college in May (19)69. And I graduated May by June, they changed my classification to one A, which basically meant come and get me, Uncle Sam I am yours. And, you know, again, life took a strange turn for me. I tried all that summer to figure out what my options were. Could I you know, conscience objection. No, at that point, I had to be a Quaker, a Jehovah's Witness. Do I go to Canada? Do I go to jail? I mean, what the hell do I do? I mean, this was the decision that frankly, every nail of our generation had to confront at some point, Donald Trump had to confront it five times. He got five deferments. SM: 10:02 Wow. Right. DB: 10:44 And that we know what that means is that five other people went in his place. [chuckles] Five other people got drafted as Donald Trump did. But, you know, we they had to make their numbers. And then they needed people to go and basically need to combat troops. And so here I am deciding well, I will take my chances with the draft. And I passed my physical, did not go to law school. And I was going to be drafted in November of 1969. Nixon and who had won the presidency with the previous November with a secret plan to win the war. started the program called Vietnamization, which basically was turning the ground war in Vietnam over to the South Vietnamese army. But escalating the air war. We dropped more tonnage in-in North Vietnam than all of off World War One and World War Two combined. We bombed that country, basically into obliteration, still did not get the result we wanted. But that was that was the plan, bring them to the negotiating table because of the Koreans from the air. But the South Vietnamese die on the ground, but our support, but not our guys dying. And but we still had 400,000 troops in Vietnam, and they needed guys to fight. If I had not gone in the army in November, I probably would not be having this conversation with you right now. What happened for me, it was luck, fate, chance, intervene, Nixon to show Vietnamization was a good thing; it was going to work, canceled November, December draft calls, and set up what he thought was a fair system, which was the lottery, and a lot fairer than, you know, draft boards that could do things at their own will or somebody like you, was mainly staffed by a lot of World War Two vets. And if somebody did not like you, or they thought, you were a bad kid, or they, they wanted to get you out of the community, [laughter] you know, they had that kind of authority. Well, now you have a lottery, and everybody from 18 to 25 has a birthday. All 356 have been thrown into the canister, and they pull out the days, and maybe days and dates. And the day after my birthday was 366. My birthday was 85. But that still gave me even instead of going in November of (19)69, I am going in in March of (19)70, that four or five months there is absolutely critical because we were bringing more troops home, trying to make the Vietnamization work. We were not replacing a lot of the combat troops or some of the rear soldiers. Basically, I think saved my life. But I get in the army. I am at Fort Dix, New Jersey, March 2, 1970. And they align my skills as a writer, journalist, English major, with what a military occupation could be. Because one of the things you need to remember about Vietnam, and I think any conversation you have with any Vietnam vet is what we call the three W's when you were there, where you were, and what you did, that has that basically, essentially, is what defines your experience. So, I am there now (19)70 I saw March, I am drafted and make me an information is a specialist in the army three out of basic, I go to the Army Hometown News Center in Kansas City, which only writes good news but great job. I am not on an army base. I am living in Kansas City. So, I got a great cushy job right out of basic to begin with. Then unfortunately, for computer in Washington says, we need guys like Bradley in Vietnam, and realize this, you are not going over his units. I am not with the guys I was in my platoon with in basic, I did not go to advanced training. There is one thing about Vietnam, that the numbers you went over alone and you came home alone, not unlike the current wars, where you went over as units and stayed together and had that sort of connection and camaraderie. We went over one at a time and came home one at a time, in many ways. So, by October, I am told I am going to Vietnam in November, and then I get there November 1970. And I was there for 365 days told mentors were only 13 months for Marines. And, but if it is true worn out in the rear, I am an Army journalist. I go out and cover stories. I am a combat correspondent as well. But I am editing a paper ready for a magazine, writing memos for the generals living in the air-conditioned jungle. You know, really out of danger. I mean, there was no real safe place in Vietnam because of the kind of war it was. But I am in a bad a safer place as you can be. long been, you know, South Vietnam largest army base in the world at that point. 35,000 soldiers 50 miles northeast of Saigon. I am going into Saigon once or twice a week to work on the paper and have it printed or pick it up from stars and stripes. I have got about as good a job as anybody getting drafted to get SM: 16:46 And you were there with air conditioning too, right? DB: 16:50 We did not have it in the [inaudible] and guard duty or- SM: 16:52 Right. Right. DB: 16:52 -anywhere else. But the generals, the brass wanted it and I worked for the brass. So yeah, that is why we-we did not mind doing 12-hour days because you know, you were you were nice and cool and comfortable. And I hate to say that and sound like I am being callous or less concerned about what my brothers had to deal with in combat, because a lot of them did not make it home a lot. Even after Vietnamization, you know, about 25,000 more of my compadres died in Vietnam, during the Nixon years. So, it was not it was not all, you know, comfort like it was for me. But this is part of what the dynamic the army was dealing with. I mean, then you had you had people who were not, you know, would have been could have been hippies, but at least maybe part of the anti-war movement in the service, you know, they got drafted. So, it was a, it was a real mix of ideologies and perceptions. And, frankly, I think it made for a better army in terms of people questioning orders, or- SM: 18:05 Right. DB: 18:05 -directions or commitments, and meeting people of a variety of different backgrounds. And but yeah, it was a you know, I was just lucky to make it through those wild months relatively intact, and to keep our job was to keep the morale up, but the guys are doing the fight and die. So, we reported that we were killing more of them than they were killing of us, which was true, it become a war of attrition, not a great way to fight a war. But that is what we were doing, that we were winning the hearts and minds of Vietnamese people. We knew that by going into by talking to the Vietnamese or worked in our base or going into Saigon a couple of times. I knew that was happening, but that is what we reported. And the way to boost our morale, to keep up their morale was to give us creature comforts. So, you know, you are- I am in an air-conditioned jungle here. I have got music at my disposal, live radio, reel to reel tape, text cassette, you know, get asked to come to the James Brown comes Vietnam, Johnny Cash comes to Vietnam, Nancy Sinatra comes to Vietnam. So, you know, point being, they understood, I will give them credit for this that the military understood some of what the generation they were dealing with. They did not know that music was important to us. And if they could give us access to music and other creature comforts, you know, to keep us, you know, motivated in the rear. Then we were going to do our job of trying to motivate the guys were out in the field and doing the heavy lifting. SM: 19:42 Now, where are you? Where were you located when you were there? DB: 19:46 I was in Long Binh which was a former rubber plantation, about 15, 20 miles northeast of Saigon. So, I am in what they call three cores. And, you know, they called us REMFs, rear-echelon motherfuckers, you know, we were, we were guys that were in the rear, and we had not cushy because to me realized that if they were to keep this generation still fighting this war, they had to give us creature comforts. Now realize, Steven, the dynamic is that the rule is for about every soldier in the field, there are six or maybe more people supporting him or and now her. So, combat soldier needs, you know, an officer to give them orders, but they also need somebody to make their uniforms, provide their equipment, I mean their weapons, to give area support, to do their food, you know, et cetera, et cetera, write the stories. So, there were more people in the rear of Vietnam than there were in the field. Over the course of that the 3 million that is served from (19)64 to (19)75. About 500,000 combat troops and 202 point 5 million support troops, not the lesson the danger and-and how, you know, I mean, being killed, be killed situations is the-the ultimate, but if there were numbers of us who were having maybe a different experience and a different war, because we were supporting them and we were still having the waters and get our hair pack and watch them light up our mustaches and not wear love beads or give the peace sign, you know. Because some of these guys like me, were getting drafted, you know, a third of the army were draftees. So about 10 million people that served in that era during the Vietnam era, and not everybody of course, was in Vietnam, only 3 million, but you know [inaudible] large percentage of people draft eligible served a third for draftees. Another third, were guys who knew they were going to get drafted. And so, they enlisted. And then the other third were, you know, people who believe in the cause and signed up to do their duty. But that makes for a different mix. And you have people like me who has been at protests, and had some questions and misgivings about the war in the military. It made for a different dynamic than I would say an all-volunteer army does. SM: 22:26 Couple of questions I like to ask you is your general questions not related to the book? I would like to just your general thoughts on your generation, the boomer generation, we know, it was one of the big it was, at the time, the biggest generation in American history. But a lot has been written about the generation in terms of whether it was a positive or a negative generation. I would like your thoughts on what it is like being a Boomer and the positives and negatives of your generation as you think about the past. DB: 22:58 Great question requesting never take not just a lot of thought, but a lot of time, I think to begin to unravel. I would say at the time, when I was growing up, and you know, I am now I am, I am old to be in the Army. I am 22 when I am drafted. And, you know, I wonder, by the time I am home, I was 24. You know, most of the guys that I was in basic training with were 19, 20 years old. And so I was a little older, and I had a college experience. But from where I said, first sitting in college and watching what was going on in the world around me. I felt like people were trying to keep me from getting killed. So I had, I had no problems with the anti-war movement, because I did not think war was good for people. And I did not think it was going to be very good for me, should I have to confront it? So I felt a connection. And I think an optimism about what people were doing. They were not sitting necessarily comfortably, because a lot of folks in that generation for a lot more comfortable than I was growing up. And but they cared about something larger than themselves. It was it was peace. It was justice [inaudible] equality. And that was admirable. And I felt there was at that time, and energy, and just the motivation and the dynamic to our generation. That was that was positive. And I think in some ways it helped to shorten the war. I think in some ways it helps to bring about civil rights. It would be not as quickly or as peacefully as possible, I think started to get better acquainted with sexual orientation issues with sexism. So, at the time, I thought, like, you know, hey, you know, if I am going to live to be 30 people that sort of doubted that the way we had the division in the demographics, and like you said, we were the- we were the elephant in the room. I was helpful, even, even in the dark days of Vietnam, I was hopeful. Things change, you know, and I, you know, it is just interesting to see how, when you think of the forces that were played, and because, you know, I was, you know, I mean, that was my own opinion, I was sitting in my own. But making my own observations have my own experience. There were a lot of folks who were, you know, had a different view of America, and, and exceptionalism and who we were and what we were doing in Vietnam was the right thing to do, etc. And so a couple of things I am going to probably digress, and I will try and really get back to the question and bring it today, in 2022. I think Vietnam was America's second civil war. We, as we know, from things that are going on, in the wake of George Floyd, Black Lives Matter, etc., we are still fighting that war. In many ways, the divisions in the country have not totally healed, famous Vietnam, country was divided. People never came back together. Vietnam vets in many ways with that, folks, that became scapegoats for all that in terms of what went wrong and what went down and Vietnam. And that is, that is a wound that we have not healed either. I think now, we are getting to a place where, you know, who knows, maybe we are not, maybe we are having our third civil war right now. It is quite possible. But like I said, I had hope. And there was, there was some optimism, I get back here. And I just felt like, people were sort of, you know, lackadaisical about what was going on a Vietnam with guys like me, we are dealing with what was going to happen to the country, you know, in the year, then and beyond. And we started to reinvent exactly what happened. And first we escaped go to Tibet, and just said, yeah, we can close this chapter and move on. And these guys, they were not good soldiers. They did horrible things, you know, et cetera, kind of coward, we had me lie. And then I think it just sort of became, yeah, we had the Vietnam syndrome, we were not going to do this again. And then Reagan, and his folks decided to reinvent it, there was a noble cause. We put up the memorial, which is in wonderful thing, the most moving more Memorial, I think, anywhere in the world. But my point is that we, we allowed Vietnam did become rather than, you know, sort of complex and complicated and diverse, still needed to be understood to have dialogue to get some kind of understanding and maybe healing. It was sort of like, it was black and white. There were these people, these, you know, crazy vets and these anti-war nut jobs and non-un-American, and then we had the good people of America, who supported the soldiers and supported the war, believed in God and country, in the city on the hill. And, you know, that is sort of stuck in terms of, you know, reinventing what happened. Meanwhile, you know, as the generation I think we sort of lost track in terms of what we were trying to accomplish. I know for me, you know, you, you got to get a job, you, you if you have a family in need to take care of them. And we sort of went, you know, got focused in on that, and, I think got a little away from at least the stuff that I thought was motivating and stimulating us during the, during the war years. And now, I would say in one, I think as a generation, for not being more vigilant and diligent for not, I think, leaving our kids and our grandkids with a better legacy. We, in many ways, we have we have bear some responsibility for the mess that things are in. And yeah, let us- I would have hoped we would have prevented that. But I got to say, you know, we have done our share, I think to mess things up. And we still got some time maybe to see if we can undo some of that. SM: 30:12 Hey, did you put on the Vietnam Memorial when it opened in (19)82? DB: 30:17 I could not get there. Then I had a, I had a very precocious and busy two-year-old, I was a stay at home dad, when it was not before it was, you know, kind of cool and acceptable. But my wife was, with an attorney, she had a law degree was way more marketable than I was. So when, when our kids when our daughter was born, she went back to work before I did. So I was there working on, you know, not on, we got to get as place but another a couple other pieces I have written about Vietnam, thinking I was going to write the great American novel, or be the, you know, be Tim O'Brien. And so I could not get there in (19)82 to I had some friends who went, and I got there. First time I got there was (19)84. And I made many-many-many trips back to DC. I was just there to give a talk, VA, one of the units in the VA for their annual conference in June, and I went again, and I always find the name of the only soldier in our office, the Information Officer at UCB headquarters who was killed in Vietnam, guy named Steve Warner, who fancied himself Vietnam model of Ernie Pyle the World War Two, great World War Two combat correspondent. And when we invaded people forget after this, of all the ruckus, that there was an there was a lot of it about invading Cambodia. We did the same thing in Laos, in February of 1971. And Steve went up from our office covered the story, stepped on a landmine and was killed. And so I-I visit his name and do a rubbing, every time I am there when I go, and frankly, it is a- it is a wife wish, wishing the last year was a great kid. SM: 32:23 Right. Leadership or lack thereof, often defines the periods we live in during our lives. Now, the boomer is going to look at form for excuse me, five men who ruled this nation back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And that is Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and Ford. When you listen to the music, and when any of your- the people that you interviewed listen to the music, did you think of these men? DB: 32:57 That is a great question. I do. But maybe it is because I put a historical overview into-into that context. When we were, when we had to sit by me, we were finishing the book. And we, I think what prompted us to finally get done and stop interviewing people was have we realized that some of the folks we had interviewed early on because of exposure to Agent Orange and everything else were dying. So we said we got to get the book out. And we wanted, we wanted to get as big an audience to this as we could. And Craig had had a couple of books published. And he has got a wonderful, yeah, he has done a number of incredible things. But he did, he wrote a book called A Change is Going to Come about Music in America. And so he had an agent, and we-we talked to his agent, the guy at that point was not willing to take us on. So we made some other contacts. And we were, we had an agent in New York, because we want to have this mass market publication. We wanted people to hear the story. And she took it to 20 or 25, publishing houses, and none of them wanted to do this. So we were- gave the book back to us. We went to a university press and they took it in a heartbeat. And of course, it became Rolling Stones, best music book of 2015. But when we were doing that rewrite for UMass Press, and we were we were connecting things somatically in terms of experiences, they said, you know, why do not you do it historically. And start with sort of the, the Utopia the JFK's war, and LBJ's war, and then Nixon's war, and that sort of work. And so, when you mentioned that, I mean, for me and my generation, you could not-not think of JFK and LBJ and Nixon because their decisions influenced and affected our lives in in humongous ways. So I, you know, I think of them. When I when I hear about the Green Berets, which, you know, Barry Sadler wrote, when he was listening to Robert Kennedy dedicate Greenbrae memorial at Fort Bragg, and was being renamed for his brother. So, you know, you hear the songs, you know, Lyndon Johnson told the nation for waist deep in the Big Muddy, you could not-not think of them and then Ohio, and soldiers Nixon coming. So the music, for me, is always connected to those events in those people. But it is also, you know, the music itself is reflective of, of those forces in those dynamics. SM: 35:59 You use this, the animal song we got to get out of this place is the number one song for Vietnam vets. How did you come to that decision that that was the number one song. DB: 36:12 But you know, part of it was that when there were occasionally things, yeah, this is before the internet. And before people got the end of that told you, you know, a lot of Vietnam vets just forgot about Vietnam and went on as best they could with their lives. Of course, many of them could not and did not. But when there were any reunions or get togethers that was a song that was played a lot. And when I thought back to that, I remembered that when we went to an EM club, and again, I am telling you, I am in the rear. So we were getting creature comforts, we have, you know, FM radio 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you know, some good DJs you know, like Adrian Cronouer, and some not so good DJs, but at least you got music, we had reel-reel [inaudible] we had cassette [inaudible], you know, we had music, we had live band in the clubs, you know, Filipino, Korean and Vietnamese could barely speak a word of English, but to get the newest playlist, and they have to play this time. So almost like the last song of the evening, they would play that. And I think it was, you know, the way our tours work was- we did not go over as units, we went over a load, and Marines has 13 months to work. And army had 12 months. So I knew when I got there, that I had the I was lucky enough, you know, to survive, that 365 days later, I was going to get out of Vietnam. So that notion of getting out of that place. But as you remember, for me, at that point, you know, we were leaving, we were turning the ground. Moreover, you know, we were not going to fight the victory we were going to depart. We were going to exit. And so it was just that notion of getting out of there. The lyrics just spoke to that great song, too. And, and then I started noticing it was being played reunions. And not all the guys we interviewed said that, you know, depending on the time you were there, where you were, when you were there, and what you did, your whole experience is different. So there is 3 million Vietnam stories, but more often than not, you know, folks from, you know, across the panoply of all the folks that we interviewed and get this in the book, that was a song that kept coming up and coming up coming up. And the reunions, I have been to the places where I have spoken. And we presented, that is the song that just sort of, you know, seems to capture that era that time and-and what the experience was- SM: 38:57 As you have made reference to, you know, the music was divided into different eras by years. And I am going to talk about first the chapter on Hello, Vietnam, that period from (19)61, to say, (19)65, before the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. And now, you make really good reference to President Kennedy in this section, because it is about the fact that he gave that historic speech as not what you can do as what you can do for your country. And a lot of the reasons why alarmed the young men and women are joining the military was to serve their nation and give back to your country. And so that is a lot different later on in the war when drafted place. But could you talk a little bit about the people you interviewed or some anecdotes from that period of, you know, some of the songs that were very important that-that ring out in that era? DB: 39:52 Well, I think you put your finger on it. I mean, you know, this dynamic young president yeah, the-the Cold War was hot. And, you know, the-the discourage. You know that that was facing us, like Baghdad's fake fascism from the Germans and the Japanese, it was communism. And we thought, you know, they were coming after us. So, you know, this, it drove into this whole thing with, you know, our dad fought in World War Two did their duty, one war save the world. So now was our turn. And I think a lot of the folks in the cohort to that generation, maybe more my brother's age a little bit older, to saw that as a call. Yeah. I mean, you know, if I got to stand up for something, I am going to do it because that is what that is what Americans do. And, you know, that was reflected a lot in the music. I mean, there was the early stuff that even referenced Vietnam. War songs, like Distant Drums by Jim Reeves. And it is, it is a lot of country songs. You know, Dear Uncle Sam, Loretta Lynn. And it was, it was very reflective Mr. Lonely, Bobby-Bobby Vinton. soldiers, doing their duty but away from home, like soldiers are their home sick and lonesome. And the people at home pining for them and hoping they get back. I mean, it was not, it was not political at the time. And then, as we started to find out more about Vietnam, and you have got Barry McGuire coming on the eve of destruction, and people are getting banned in some stations, and people are saying, what is that, and you know, he always only always that one line in there, the Eastern world is exploding the reference to Vietnam. But, you know, people, you know, the attitude started to change so early, it was, you know, maybe it is like God, love and, you know, apple pie and country. And that began to change, the more people got to understand maybe what was going on the [inaudible], and some of the folk music started to turn very political. You have had things like, you know, Lyndon Johnson told the nation, and Draft Dodger Rag, some of the Dylan music. But you know, it was all there. I mean, we got it all. I mean, even if you were not filtering it through any kind of political, or, you know, military, industrial, you know, context. It was the mus- it was our music, and we knew who Bob Dylan was, we knew who Loretta Lynn was, you know, we knew who Jim Reeves was, we knew. And, you know, who, you know, all the artists were Johnny Cash. I mean, the music was, was exceptionally good. Coming, you know, from all around the world. And it spoke to us whether or not it had a political overlay. And the further you get into our generation, the more pronounced it becomes, in terms of, you know, how vital it was the- our identity. SM: 43:08 You know, it is interesting in that, in that era of John Kennedy, a singer that always comes to mind when he was Lesley Gore, she kept singing all those songs, it was always about boyfriends, girlfriends, dating, love affairs, like, nothing real serious, it was all it was a different era. And then things changed in (19)64, (19)65, with a rival the Beatles, and the Rolling Stones, and, you know, the Turtles and all these other groups. And then, and that is LBJ, and then you get into Nixon, and then you get to psychedelic music, which is, you know, the [inaudible] well, a lot of the groups from them from the Grateful Dead and-and one of the groups that I did not hear in your was Uriah Heep. I do not know if you ever heard of them. DB: 43:59 Oh, yeah. Yeah. SM: 44:00 They were, they were very popular at that time, as were Sugarloaf and the Raspberries and that particular group. So though there was some I was I was actually trying to find songs in the back there that you did not do. But- DB: 44:15 Yeah, well, I and again, you know, as we said, you know, we, at one point, we started out thinking we were going to do a Vietnam that is top 20. And we thought we knew what the top 20 was going to be. And then when we started the, you know, the interviews, we realized that to be a top 200 to 2000, because everybody had their song, you know, you mentioned Leslie Gore. You know, one of the guys we interviewed, you know, and silence was in the field you were always talking about music and where people heard and what they associated with, you know, you had to have silence in the field. So if you were a marine or an army grunt yeah, you were not hearing music, but he had, you know, what was that? Lollipops, and Icicles some [crosstalk] SM: 44:16 Yes-yes. DB: 44:31 [inaudible] Lesley Gore song bounces to say, that was out in the field. He was trying to get it out of attention to it and concentrate. But yeah, you know, we could have had if we did this if we get if we interviewed another four or 500 vets, even some of the folks that have come to our presentations over the years, there is a there is a new song. I remember Chuck Hagel, you have the Secretary of Defense, decorated, he and his two brother Tom, between them at five Purple Hearts. I mean, these guys knew what they were doing. And, you know, when-when I interviewed did a presentation for a symposium that Hagel put on at University of Nebraska. He said his song was, it is a strange, strange world. We live in Master Jack. Oh, yeah. And I was like, wow, you know, that never came up from anybody. But of course, they went back. And we played it for him that night, we were giving the presentation. It was by an Australian group called 4 Jacks and a Jill. And, but for some reason, that song [inaudible]. And so like you said, somebody, you know, we, you know, said that you are right heap of sugar loaf, you know, did it for them? It is, it is again, you know, you know, there are all the voices that are in the book, there is an equal number that just did not make the cut, because of the way the editing and the flow that putting it together. And then there is another whole universe of people who, like I said, who either were there or were not there, but they listen, you know, that have a different song. Every it is a crazy thing. And I think it became even-even more pronounced with-with COVID how music for people was a sanctuary someplace they went. I mean, it was the cry, but was the hope is always the pray. It was the band. But, and that is what it did for us in Vietnam. I mean, we were holding on sometimes by threat, what was good, what the hell was going to happen? Not just the US in Vietnam, but to the country. And there was there was somebody saying something, you know, if it was, come on people, you know, smile on your brother, everybody get together? Got to have one. I mean, whatever it was. And, boy, that is the power of music. And I think that is why not only is this is this book, good in that way. But I think it is because certain music does for us as human beings. SM: 47:45 Right? You, you beautifully put it in, there is talking about the Gulf of Tonkin, (19)64. Now, obviously, you know, that is after Kennedy has been assassinated. But it really is an important period, not only a break in the music, by the breaking what is happening in America, in terms of protests and all the other things, there was protests even early on, in the anti-nuke groups, anti-war groups, even before Kennedy was assassinated, but still, that Gulf of Tonkin, did you put that in? Did you just kind of that was kind of a surprise, when Johnson did that, in that course, we think it was not truthful, to begin with. DB: 48:28 Yeah, well, I think just, you know, I think John would probably [inaudible] day that things happened the way they did, because, you know, I mean, when you think of all the amazing things he accomplished, in the course of his presidency, but, you know, he is always going to be, you know, aligned with the, you know, with them, the escalation of that debacle. But, you know, yeah, I mean, we were looking for an excuse. I mean, and it is this whole thing of what every president from Truman on, was grappling with, and that was, you know, we could not be soft on communism, they want to take over the world, we had no idea you know, I mean, Truman should have known because he man wrote him a letter- SM: 49:18 Right. DB: 49:19 - quoting from our own Constitution and Declaration of Independence, that a communist is not a communist is not a communist, you know, that. You know, people have different views and-and-and different principles and values that we saw monolithic communism is this thing you stop? And I think we were just looking for I mean, yeah, and you know, all the stuff we did, you know, I mean, we, our record is pretty scurrilous, if you look back at the (19)50s, you know, and Iran and the Dominican Republic and Panama, and other places around the world. So, we were, we were doing what we could do to-to be habit our way and Vietnam became this place where, you know, hey, be out there, they were going to try and take over the country. And it was going to be horrible for us. And you know, that goes to all Southeast Asia and that whole domino theory, which was nonsense, but it is sort of culminated there. And, as we know, late react from the history. It was not what it was. But it was an excuse to do something that we thought needs to be done. And of course, it turned out to be one of the ugliest chapters in our history. SM: 50:35 You know, Vietnam vets are very sensitive about the eras that they have served in Vietnam. And I think the one book that came out, really emphasizing this was Phil Caputo's, book, Rumor War. He loved that he was there in (19)65. And he was very sensitive at the time with all the books are being written later in the later on after the war, about everything was (19)67 to (19)71. Well, he said, I was there in 1965. And we were out in the bush, and we could have been killed at any time. And people were dying at that time now in larger numbers, but, and of course, that is the Battle of la Drang Valley, (19)65 and Rolling Thunder and killing of Vietnamese. So there is some truth on how you break it down here, kind of the quietness of the early (19)60s, and then all of a sudden, the Gulf of Tonkin, we were more involved in a war now. And, and then, of course, you have got an author like Phil Caputo, a Vietnam vet, making these kinds of comments. And, of course, we were soldiers, ones by Joe Galloway, and emphasizing what happened at the la Drang Valley in (19)65. So you are right, in tune with the music in terms of some of these [crosstalk] events. DB: 51:49 When I think your point is a [inaudible], and that is that, we always say, really talking about the three W's and we have mentioned that in the book, when you were there, where you were, and what you did, you know, [inaudible] Caputo, you know, you know, combat (19)65 Doug Bradley, in the rear, you know, you know, information specialist, (19)70 and (19)71. And all the 3 million in between, I mean, really, no two stories are alike. And, and I think you no filter. And I think what we need to say we you know, we all answered the same call. We all took the same pledge. And but, you know, it worked it-it manifested itself in different ways. And our lives were forever change. And then what we did with that, once we were back is of course the rest of the story. And but yeah, I think trying to generalize and say well, you know, Vietnam was this a Vietnam was that it diminished. You know, Phil Caputo, from the Doug Bradley from the Tim O’Brien from the Glory Emerson's from, you know, everybody in the Francis Fitzgerald. I mean, there is, you know, there is just a lot to be said, and I think we need to understand that all those experiences are valid. And, and that we there is something to be learned from every one of those. This is- SM: 53:26 Very important in your book, and that is, can you discuss the importance of all types of music and how the word diversity applies to not only those Americans who served in the war, but the types of music they loved and listened to? DB: 53:47 Yeah, and I, you know, that was, that was one of the things that really struck me, in fact, I just had a conversation yesterday with one of the guides, as mentioned the book guide, Melvin Lapesca, who grew up in rural Wisconsin on a farm and he said, they listened to polka, and, you know, his idea of, you know, music was polka music. And he ended up in Vietnam, a medic and a unit that is, you know, half African American, and, and, you know, guys from all over the country, and he starts, he starts listening to the Hendrix and the Chamber's Brothers and the Mamas and the Papas, and his world is turned upside down. And he said that he never would have had that experience and never would have been introduced to those other not only musical cultures, but you know, distinct cultures, you know, African American or, or creole or, you know, Latino from the West Coast if he had not been there and been in the army. And the wonderful thing was on the one hand, that music did a lot to bring us all together and to open up. I am not a country music guy I got through appreciate country music a little bit more, because of the guys that was serving way does not mean I am going to, I am going to like Detroit City by Bobby Bear, I am tired of hearing that song, but it got played all the time. And on the other hand, because of who we are, and the way we were built and, and, and how we function, music at times, would be something that would, you know, be disruptive and would create disharmony. And we have stories in the book to have racism of, you know, of fights over songs on the jukebox, so that cover bands are playing. So, you know, this is the dynamic you are dealing with, and we are still dealing with it, you know, people getting along or not getting along. out in the field, everybody, I think pretty much together combined, does not matter what color you are, back in the rear, a little different. And you know, you got to blow off steam, and maybe you have a little too much to drink or smoke. And it is something he goes out. But I would say more often than not, and on the more positive ledger, you know, the music found ways to connect us to one another, and to introduce us to different aspects of people's lives and their feelings in ways that we probably would not have had happened- SM: 56:25 Yet. And it is so true, because you get having an appreciation for another person's music, beyond the music that you love, is so important about trying to understand people. And getting along. It is, as you bring it up, music, oftentimes over and over was one of the most important things in terms of healing Vietnam veterans from the war, DB: 56:51 Yep-yep. SM: 56:52 Because they identified the music now this could you were entering into this, because this might have may even help what is going on today in our society is having-having an appreciation for another person's religion having an appreciation for other person's paper musically that you do not usually listen to. That is, that is a real positive from the Vietnam War in terms of, even though there was racism going on, and division and everything else like was happening in America at that time. It is the fact that this was one little thing that could bring people together was music. And it can help him healing. DB: 57:28 Yeah, no, it is true. And you know, the-the amazing thing is that this, the science now is showing how that works, you know that they are able to do brain scans. And they know that where memory and music reside in the hippocampus, and wherever it is, that they are right next to each other. So that is why somebody like Tony Bennett, who has Alzheimer's and does not know, could not recognize his wife, some days, his pianist will come in, and he will do a 90-minute set, front and back. And then things go on again. They are finding incredible things for Alzheimer's and dementia patients. But I think it is this notion of, you know, we know that some music has this validity, with memory and connection. But then as they start to look at this, they realize it is not just a morale boost, but it can relieve pain, and it can promote healing. And that is the hospitals some places were doing that during COVID. And I could not agree with you more, and I thank you. I mean, that was the greatest music ever. And it is never going to happen again. Because music was not just a commodity it was, it was art give its expression. It was experience, poetry. But I still think music has that capacity and puts all this music available now, you and our students used to come into our class. Some of them were born in the late 1990s, early 2000s. But they knew the music, they know the Doors they know Hendrix they know the Beatles, they know CCR, they know the Supremes, they know Haggard, they know Cash, they know everybody because they can listen to it all. And it was great and take their connection to that awareness of a song to a veteran's experience, and then maybe explain a little bit about the era and war. Music and music is a wonderful way to do that. I could not agree more with what you said. And I just wish we could practice it for I mean, if I mean I have not listened to it, but if Taylor Swift's new album is-is speaking about things that are universal, and people could let us listen to her, you know. I will listen to Kanye West anymore. I am sorry, but my kids did when he was you know, I remember you know, when-when he was coming on the scene and they you know, they were fascinated with him and his message Late Registration; they used to play that song, I got tired to hear it. But and I could not understand some lyrics but they were telling me what he was talking about. You know, we, we need to find ways to bring people together. And I think music is one of the best ways to do that. That is what I think still with our presentations, man know the audiences are self-selecting. But you know, we will have next year we will have antiwar folk, some anti-war movement from that era. But modern-day soldiers will have kids and spouses and all, and use it as a tendency to just calm everybody down to get respectful there in the moment, not judgmental. At God. I mean, do not we need that? SM: 59:38 Yes-yes. We do. I think that the section we talked about the Nixon year is very important to I have read enough books to on Vietnam to see that when they start talking, they generalize about all Vietnam veterans, it really upsets me because they talk about, you know, a lot of the veterans well- a lot of work, or maybe the majority were welcomed when they came home. And certainly, the Wall was the first time many people felt that they were welcomed in 1982 as a group in Washington, but that period during Nixon was certainly a very troubling time. I know the music kind of expressed it via the Grateful Dead and Creedence Clearwater and Grand Funk Railroad, the Doors those groups, they kind of it was, it was great music but because see attention within the music, the Grateful Dead performed here at Binghamton University, and on May 2 of 1970, two days before Kent State. And one of the commentaries in the newspaper was that the Grateful Dead considered this one of their five greatest concerts ever. And secondly, you could see the tension in the audience and in the music on stage, but Vietnam [inaudible] you bring it up about the-the increasing on drugs. The certainly protests were at their all-time high Black Power was coming in debt changing, challenging, deprecate philosophy and non-violence. And there is a lot of fragging going on. So this is in the music, you can see it in the music. Can you talk a little bit about that latter part of the (19)60s and early (19)70s when this was happening? DB: 1:02:17 Yeah. And if we got something to catch up on, after I say that I had sent you an email earlier, we are in the process of moving and I need to meet with some of the movers here in a little while. So I will answer that. And I will be glad to talk again, as you can tell, I like to talk at any time about anything else you want to cover. But I think, you know, pick a cacophony of not only the musical sound, but of the social turmoil, all got all caught up in that era out whether or not that would happen, regardless of Cambodia invasion and Kent State, who knows, but I think it was building toward that. And as you put it, and you know, even-even with the debt, who did not come up a lot in conversations with that-that we talked to, they were guys from the coast, of course, we talk about them a lot. But, you know, that was the sound that was particular to a place and a time. And people had not gotten as much I think into being deadheads, at least the folks that we talked to in the book, but the music represented this thing, you know, that it was sort of a tipping point. And where was all this going to go? Guys like Hendrix, if you listen, and he has got a song called Machine Gun. You know, that. I mean, and if you listen to his Woodstock version of the Star-Spangled Banner, everything is in there, helicopters, missiles, guns, you know, call to arms, you know, rescue, it is, it is all there. It is all there in purple haze, too. So, it is, it is just that we had hit a place where I think something had to give, and music was right at that fulcrum. And, you know, I am even [inaudible]. I mean, you know, Okie from Muskogee, and, you know, you know, some of the other stuff that he wrote after that, everybody responded and reacted. And if it was anti-anti-war, if it was anti Nixon, if it was, you know, give peace a chance. Everything became a flexion point. And music was, I think, like I said, was the seminal part of that. Why that was, I think it was the times I think it was the way the industry was, I think it was the way the politics were. But, you know, and but, you know, I listened to War by Edwin Starr. We sing, you know, Woodstock and, and we saw the movie at the theater in Vietnam, you know that. And we had to we had to leave the theater because we were getting rocketed. You know, this is the craziness of that time. And it is, it is all caught up in the music and I do not know how better to say it. I do not know how better to explain it. But it was, It was there at every pivotal point. And it is for a lot of us. It is still there. We need it. SM: 1:05:33 Quick question I have is when you flew over, were there other people with you that were going into the military? DB: 1:05:43 Oh, yeah. When- SM: 1:05:45 How many were in the plane that were you? Were you How many were there? DB: 1:05:49 You go. It is like amazing. It is like a cattle call. You go to Fort Travis, Travis Air Force Base, that we fly into San Francisco, my best friend, my best friend who was my best friend to this day, George Moriarty. He and I were the only hometown [inaudible] center together. And then we ended up in the same office in Vietnam. We showed up at Travis Air Force Base together, George got called out of the first manifest first. When they called us, they brought everybody out. And George was on the first one, the first plane to go to Vietnam. I sat around Travis doing [inaudible] work for a few days. It seemed like an eternity. And a week later, I go to Vietnam. It is just the way the computers worked and replace this is Robert McNamara incarnate. You know, running numbers, Running IBM cards through a computer with different MOS is in different locations. And again, you know, there were guys with my MOS like that is military occupational specialty. Who were you know, up on the DMZ. I ended up being you know, in the air-conditioned jungle again, just-just luck, but Georgia and I ended up there together. And they call you out in the field on the manifests you going on the plane. So we flew Scandinavian Airlines from California to Anchorage, Alaska, from Alaska, to Japan, and from Japan to Vietnam, longest and most painful flight I have ever been on. And I guess there must have been 150 to 200 GIs all of us going to Vietnam to Long Binh base right outside Saigon. SM: 1:07:31 I got the one question I want to have you about all those counters you had at Bentley was the number one song, In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida. DB: 1:07:38 [laughter] The funny thing was, that was later and you know, that was very popular on a pirate radio show by a guy named Dave Rabbit who [inaudible] show that is a that is another whole story of his you should follow sometimes it was called Radio First Termer. But you know, and of course the act was the guy passed out in the concert and everybody thought people that did not know that the iron butterfly stick, or you know what they did on stage it was like the who burning smashing the guitar. They really thought this guy had passed out, you know, the drummer, but, you know, I you know, I got to honestly, I got to say, there were other better moments and I do think probably the high point was you know, Surrealistic Pillow that basically playing the Hole and Chris Grace Slick then, I meet her in 1967. SM: 1:08:36 Wow. DB: 1:08:36 Holy shit. Hair was down. You know, it is all Mr. Nice. Gorgeous looking young. I never seen a woman like this. And she was the first woman I ever heard say Fuck, yeah. It was love at first sight. With Grace Slick. SM: 1:08:53 We do not- it is interesting Binghamton University. It was called Harper College, SUNY Binghamton at the time, when I was here. I was here (19)67 to (19)70. We had the Chamber's Brothers we had Iron Butterfly. We had Lovin' Spoonful, we had the Turtles we had- DB: 1:09:12 We had the Turtles too I forgot to mention [crosstalk] SM: 1:09:13 -the Arlo Guthrie we had we had. I want I know that. Let us see. We also had Duke Ellington and Ella Fitzgerald, because jazz is very popular Binghamton. DB: 1:09:14 Yep. [crosstalk] SM: 1:09:15 And we had [crosstalk] Mountain. DB: 1:09:29 We can do this back. And that is the thing. This is that your you know, and look at, look at what you are saying you are going from psychedelic, you know, real electronic. I mean, a Spoonful could be you did a bunch of different stuff. They could be folk that could be rock. SM: 1:09:45 Right. DB: 1:09:45 They could be soft rock. You know, the Chambers Brothers. I mean, that this was the first before Hendrix was the first African American group that was psychedelic. Your time has come today. So, you know, I think what you are saying is you are you are exposed to that. I am lucky I am in this oasis in a desert in West Virginia, exposing a bunch of kids in Wheeling and Wellsburg. And Bethany, to this is happening all over the country. These-these acts wanted to be in front of audiences, they wanted to be in front of kids, you know, that they knew the sound resonated with and spoke to because the music did. And they were not as hung up on, you know, they had to get, you know, 50 percent of, you know, 70,000 tickets now, they wanted upfront money, and they wanted to come and perform, and that is what we were able to do at Bethany, you probably did in Binghamton, you could probably get a bigger audience. But yeah, we all had all this music is literally in front of us, which I think was, you know, another defining thing for our generation. SM: 1:10:49 On May 2 1970, we had the Grateful Dead in the band. So, yeah, and then-then. DB: 1:10:57 A person, person that could not [inaudible] [crosstalk]. SM: 1:10:59 Yeah, and the person kept coming in from New York was Paul Butterfield. He was very popular here. DB: 1:11:04 Yeah, I love- I saw Paul Butterfield in Spokane, Washington. SM: 1:11:10 Unbelievable concerts we had, one of the questions I want to ask also is did you ever think about the generation you belong to? I know when you are young, and you know, you hear the stories about, you know, the biggest generation in American history after the war. You know, so many kids are being born Art Linkletter had his TV show, you know, kid about kids and everything. But did you ever think of yourself? I am a part of something different? Not just not just size, but for me, it was when I got to [inaudible] college. DB: 1:11:45 Yeah, no, I did. And I think I never put it in terms of, you know, the baby boomer generation, until college. But I always felt that when I was younger, my brother and I were listening to, you know, Over the Mountain, Across the Sea, by Johnny and Joe, in a bar, upstairs bedroom, and my parents hollering for us to keep it down, and then could not understand what two black people were doing up in our bedroom, having a conversation about falling in love. You know, and then you had Elvis and Little Richard and Sam Cooke. And, you know, and on and on, even had Pat Boone, Fats Domino, but, you know, I started to feel different, we were different than they were because of our music. And then we started to be different than they were because of our outlook, and because of our lifestyle, because of our hair because of our cars. You know, so, and then I did not realize what that difference meant. Or if it would I, you know, began to articulate it, until I started to realize that I was this generation that JFK challenge to, you know, do ask not what they could do, you know, because you could do for them, but what we could do for the country. I mean, that was sort of our ethos. We all grew up with that. SM: 1:12:59 Right. DB: 1:12:59 Sons of World War Two dads, sons and daughters of World War Two dads gave the world we got to do that. But then I started to feel like, we were not just different because of that call, we were different because of who we were, what we were listening to what we were questioning. And, yeah, I, I felt that very much through college and in the army, particularly. Because this is these are the guys who are doing the fighting and dying. SM: 1:13:24 And you know, it is amazing. And I will get back to questions. But I started feeling it when I was a college at SUNY Binghamton. Man, what a great time to be alive, even though we were going through hell with a lot of the issues in the world with the Vietnam War, and certainly the civil rights issues and all the movements that we were evolving. And seeing a lot of the injustice has been going on for an awful long time, even when we were little kids in the 1950s. But, you know, it was just a feeling Wow, it is great to be young. And [crosstalk] I could not explain it any better. It is just a feeling. DB: 1:14:03 No-no, I did. And, and it was it was something that was expressed in the music that we listen to and grouped around. I mean, regardless of your taste, I mean, you know, I want to hear the stones in the Supremes, you know, and maybe the Chambers Brothers, well, they did not get much of an am radio, but you know, somebody else wants to hear, you know, Little Green Apples or Patches, but, you know, we were all hearing the same stuff. Yeah, they can like what they like I could, but we were and you know, a lot of a lot of what was going on like that that distinction-distinction, as you were feeling was articulated by the music. SM: 1:14:40 You know, your books all about and we are going to get back to it and Vietnam-Vietnam veterans and the music of the war and everything, but there were a lot of people that were not veterans and did not serve. And I for one, I just wanted to list there were six songs that really stood out for me, that I can pinpoint in here. and hear the tune. And I can remember exactly where I was when I heard it and one of them is Time by the Chambers Brothers, because of the concert of Binghamton University, it was unique. It was a happening. Remember that word happening? DB: 1:15:13 Yep, oh yeah, oh yeah. SM: 1:15:13 Everything was happening. And then I remember right and when my parents when we went to every Saturday down to Binghamton and hearing Bobby Vinton sing Blue Velvet. I remember that song. And then Richard Harris MacArthur Park was very important around here. Binghamton Cornell University, Ithaca College Binghamton students, a lot of them went to Stewart Park. So the, the Richard Harris song, and then My Father, the Judy Collins song, which is so different. And of course, Mamas Mamas and the Papas California dream. And that is why I went to California for a while. So, you know, you really hit it, not only for people who, who were in Vietnam, but people who are not in Vietnam. It is, it is all part of our lives. I have a question too, about the Wall. This is the 40th anniversary of the Wall this year. And I could not believe it has been that long. And that happened on November 11 of 1982. That what is your what are your thoughts on the Wall? Usually, you have been to the Wall, probably. But if you did. DB: 1:16:08 Yes-yes. SM: 1:16:12 What was when you walked there for the first time and you saw it, but then you saw your reflection? What were you thinking? DB: 1:16:29 I was thinking I could be in and out the Wall that you know, there, but for the grace of God, you know, that do not say, and again, explain to you that, you know, rolling the dice getting drafted. And I mean, being having the capacity to do what they wanted to do with me. I could have been in there. And so you see yourself in there. And one of the-the only the only combat correspondent information specialist from our office, who was killed in Vietnam, was a colleague of mine, a guy that that I served with there, and he is on the Wall. And that could I right away. I think that could be the next the Warren Z Warner could be looking at Doug Bradley's name on that Wall. I think all the controversy that was standing, and maybe some people still do not, do not like it. But I think that is all changed. But you remember all the controversy? SM: 1:18:16 Yeah, it is unbelievable. I mean, down there on in a couple of- about a week now for the dreams and on the 40th anniversary. Just have you heal from the war? And do you feel and then you teach this co teach this course with a professor who teaches, I think African and African American history? And I would be curious about what his thoughts might be too, because you have written an unbelievable book. I think it is a historic book. I think it is a it should be required reading in any course on the (19)60s. But hidden [inaudible] to you and your peer, your co-author, he [inaudible] for. DB: 1:18:57 I think, in some ways, yes. I-Craig knows that. His experience was he was in he, what they did was they did when you when you are number came up for that year in the lottery. That is the number you kept so years after that, they might only take a specific age group and do it for that year and, and then tickets specific age group for the next year. So, in other words, he-he knows he could have gone to Vietnam, but he had a good lottery number after 1969 because he is a little younger, and he did not go. But he grew up in Fort Carson, Colorado, and he used to play in a rock band that played in the Air Force academies out there too. So he was playing a lot of music for guys who had been older and come home or that were home and going over. And he-he knew, I think at a young age of what soldiers were doing with who was doing fighting, dying, you know, fortunate son was not, it was not the Senator's son. It was not the millionaire's son. was not a politician that, you know, it was it was the kids, you know that were working at the gas stations in the supermarkets or dropped out of school or whatever. And that gave Craig an awareness. And I think he is grateful for that. And he also he, I think he understood, again, the good luck and good fortune that he had. And the wonderful thing about him, this is one of the brightest guys I know. But when he became, he got degrees in English, from Champaign, Urbana, Illinois, but he very early first teaching degree at University of Mississippi, and his-his roommate down there was a shared a home with-with housework with African Americans. And he grew in awareness of the, of the power of music, gospel, soul blues, in and for people of color. That changed his whole approach to the teaching in the direction when do we got an Afro American Studies became chair of Afro American Studies, Madison, I believe, was probably, at the time, the only white chair of an Afro American Studies Department anywhere. And, you know, because of who he was, and, and not only, you know, his scholarship, but also his teaching and, and reaching out. And I think for Craig yeah, he has always said, one of the things he always says on a presentation is Vietnam vets have kept me sane, meaning, he was not the kind of guy that could enjoy and [inaudible] the politics of higher education, that schmoozing the game playing. You know, the committee's that some of the crap that goes on and then that the political and I love higher education, but he was not, he was not attuned to that. And so he used to hang out with us other Vietnam vets, you know, we had a writing group, we did put out a magazine at our own expense called The Deadly Writers Patrol. And Craig did a lot of this, I think, is a way not just for penance. You know, like, I was lucky they, but also because he believed that Vietnam vets had not gotten a fair shake and needed to heal, and writing and music are ways to do that healing. So and I can say that for me, too. I am, you know, even though I was in the rear and was not in combat, I think 12 months in a warzone, can screw you up a little bit. I think I had a mild case of PTSD when I came home. And, and I, you know, I did my graduate work, I focused on stuff that was related to Vietnam, even though it was just getting a master's in English. When I got to Madison, I helped set up a place called vets house, which was a community-based service center. It was basically vets helping vets because nobody was helping us. So I was trying to do what I could to help guys that had not had the advantages I did. And then, of course, the book, and I still do presentations around the state and around the country. I was in DC. In June, I am doing a thing here. I did a couple of things here in September, I am doing something here in November. I am teaching a class in Arizona, in November in January, it is just I could not stop because I think there are people that still need to come home. And this is a way to get them back home. I-I know more than one veteran that I have that we have interviewed that I believe in sitting down with us and telling a story about the power of a song, like you talking about, you know, maybe Judy Collins or the Chamber's Brothers, when they tell that that that that is not in all cases, but in a lot of cases. That was that was when that veteran got back home. At that is, you know [crosstalk] SM: 1:23:45 What is really great about the music of this era, is the fact that you can listen to the words, you can hear the words. You know, I know through all the different timeframes, certainly, and we got into the (19)80s and the (19)90s. And some of the rock groups, you just hear noise, you do not hear the words. The words had such an important effect on anyone who was listening to it. I mean, it is just like, wow, it is like a wakeup call. But it is also a brief emotion to you. Just like hundreds of the songs, and I have even gone on the web and looked at songs under a country western and then I will look at rhythm of blues and soul and even disco. There is something in every era about the (19)60s and the (19)70s. And there is words you can learn from them. Your book is done tremendous service because it is not only about healing Vietnam vets. It is also about healing non-Vietnam vets who lived in this same time and it is helping us heal as-as a people and as a nation during this very difficult time in our history. DB: 1:25:00 I could not agree more. And we need more of it, we could use that a little bit of that now. SM: 1:25:05 I agree. DB: 1:25:05 And I think, you know, and as you know, we both know, there is still work to be done on both fronts both then and now. And I, I find that I know, our audience is a self-selecting, but not everybody that comes there, you know, comes there to be healed or saved, they probably did not use a word like that-that they were- SM: 1:25:08 Right. DB: 1:25:24 -intimating that they were broken or something. But, you know, the audience is, you know, this is people who participate in people who protested, these are folks to stay, hope to serve, and the music grounds them, it is, it is honest, it is authentic. It and people are respectful, they listen. And I think they find ways to, to form a bond, like you said, whether you were there or not, we all had the same music, we- SM: 1:25:53 Yep. DB: 1:25:53 -had some of the same experience. And we all I think we [inaudible] need a little love in our hearts. SM: 1:26:00 When I asked that question about what everybody thinks about when they go to the-the Wall the first time or, you know, anytime they go to the Wall. I think I have always said there are two heroes during this period is those who serve their nation in the military, number one. And number two are the anti-war people who are honest and sincerely interested in ending the war to bring our men and women back for more so they would not die. And, and I still think I in I know, there was a lot great division between the pro war and anti-war period in time, the hard hats in New York City and all that other stuff. But when it comes down to it, who was generally honest about their feelings about saving human lives, and-and in some of the anti-war, people that have gone to the Wall, not only see Vietnam, veterans on that Wall, they see Vietnamese people on that Wall, because two to 3 million people die in that war from Vietnam, and Cambodia and Laos. So, it is care about them to [crosstalk] DB: 1:27:05 -know that I think that is, that is exactly right. And I, you know, it is too bad that I think in the way we have polarized and sort of demonize the both the era, and especially folks who are anti-war, as done us a disservice, because there were people who genuinely and for and I have met many of them, who fervently believe that war was not a good thing that we were, you know, committed some major atrocities and destroying a culture in a nation over there. And for not the right reasons and they wanted to save lives and save their lives. And, but we made it seem like they spent on soldiers, and they hated them, and they disrespected them. And they did not, you know, the people that I linked arms with, when I got home and a few even before I went over, I thought were people who genuinely wanted to keep me safe. SM: 1:27:06 Yep. DB: 1:27:06 And I, you know, I-I am all for that. And it was too bad that you know, it has become the guys that fought whether it was a noble cause they could have won if they would have fought the war properly, and done it differently. And now they came home and everybody shit on him. And that is not that is not the case. It is not that easy. It is not that simple. It is not that black and white. But that is how we have basically allowed some historians and some presidents to explain that era. And I think it does us a disservice. It keeps us divided. SM: 1:28:36 I agree. DB: 1:28:37 Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, absolutely true. And it happened. I mean, you know, they could control the airwaves, but they could not control ears. [laughs] And so um, yeah, you were not going to play. You know, Happiness is a Warm Gun. You were not even going to listen to for time they did not [inaudible] guy to have his place played, you will have [inaudible] DJs? Talk about that song being on the non-playlist, never ever Eve of Destruction by Barry McGuire. Movie, Do not Take Your Love to Town because the guy shoots his girlfriend, you know, that was based on a Korean War story, but you know it but he thought it was about Vietnam and you know, you could not have somebody you know, Scott has done that his legs and he shoots his girlfriend. I mean, it is like, you know, it is yeah, that is just but we still heard the songs. You know, we could get music and other ways. People from home would send us stuff. There were pirate radio stations there were pirate DJs Dave rabbit, and on a show called Radio First Termer or being the-the ultimate in your face to the army. But other guys did that some of the [inaudible] it just play songs that they would not play on AFEN, um when they had when they would play music in some of us [inaudible] clubs and sometimes even on the some of the some of the bands and the radio dials and the radio headsets and transmitters in Vietnam. We could get all that music so you were not play you with a little help from my friends when I was there because Spiro Agnew said it was a drug song. We can all listen to, you know, we can listen to war by Edwin Starr. Yeah. I mean, we sort of laughed about in Vietnam, it is like, well, okay, yeah, it is not good for anything. But what is that going to do for us? They are going to get home any sooner. But yeah, I mean, I, we interviewed a lot of AFEN DJs for the book, because like I said, their job was to keep the morale up like [inaudible], kindred spirits, in a way and knew we had to do some things and sometimes bide our time. But they did a good job. They did. Many of them did the best job they could, and they cared about the guys out in the field. And but they did sometimes have constraints put on it like we did. I could not like what I was seeing. Am I going to, am I going to write about, you know, you know, when our base gets attacked in, you know, because near the elections in- Viet Cong basically showing us who is in charge, because they do not want President [inaudible] reelected, [inaudible] the election? I will pick it or write that story, but it happened. I saw it. SM: 1:30:00 You also, you mentioned this, the most there were two very important items for all veterans, our Vietnam vets, and that one was their gun. And number two was their radio. And, and you-you did a great job in the book of talking about you know, they were not carrying these radios around in the jungle. You know, you did not they were not sure they did not have any in la the Drang Valley, you know. DB: 1:32:29 No-no. SM: 1:32:31 So, because you can be heard, but you made a good point in talking about that, that the combat troops themselves. But it was only when they got back, not when they were out in the field. DB: 1:33:09 Absolutely. We got an army of a couple segments in there. As you know, we have solos in the book because we just wanted the whole point was to get out of the way of other voices is some of the people guys like Bill Hardin, and Bill [inaudible], and Art Flowers and Phil Kristofferson, and Gordon Fowler, who are writers and musicians have their own ways poets, said, you know, can I write my own piece, and you guys can edit if you want, but I want to, I want to write what my song experiences. Bill has one where, you know, somebody, they call it the bullshit band. And it was, it was what part of the radio dial, when, you know, troops had to be alerted to area or they were checking within the perimeter and guard duty. And somebody got on that band and started to play music. And here was a bunch of guys and Marines up in on the DMZ in combat boots dancing to the letter by the box tops, you know, [inaudible]. SM: 1:34:00 Right. DB: 1:34:02 And so, yeah, I mean, it was the music was-was that essential and important and to us, and you know, we found ways you know, whether you had a rifle or not, and again, silence in the field, but here are these guys are not back in the rear yet. They were just not out in combat, and they were listening to their music. And when they go back out the next day, you know, silence is going to keep you safe. But you might have a song playing in your head and we had guys tell us stories about that too. You know, trying to get really bad Lesley Gore song, Sunshine, Lollipops and Roses out of your head, because it was your girlfriend's favorite song, but I do not really think about that. Now when I got to see if there is anybody out there trying to shoot. SM: 1:34:48 I want to mention too that you have heard Have you heard the song the Wall by John McDermott? DB: 1:34:55 I have. Yep. SM: 1:34:56 Well, I did not realize he said one of the Irish tenors of course. And he-he has been doing concerts all over the country. And he gives it to local VA, Vietnam veteran chapters. He was just he was just unbelievable. And he was, he was saying at the Wall, maybe 10 years ago, and he did a, you know, 30 minutes before the opening for Memorial Day. And I was sitting next to a gold star Mother, I will never forget it. And she says to me, you see the Wall over there be your behinds shoulder? Yes. My son's name is on that little part of the Wall. And that is a memory I will never forget, she was a gold star mother. So it really touches you. And of course, he deeply cares about veterans. You talk also about the very important section in your book toward the back is the story about Bobby Muller and Bruce Springsteen, could you talk about that? Yeah, I know, Bobby. He was at my retirement. And- DB: 1:35:58 Oh, my gosh, I love Bobby and, you know, talk about a guy that gave everything he could to the cause both giving part of his body away to the war itself. And then what he did afterwards, and I, you know, it was such an amazing moment, because you were talking about the concerts, but now called the concert for the Vietnam vet 1981. And Bruce has been around for a few years, he has gotten some traction is a new Bob Dylan. He was the new hit and but he basically was still a musician, and, you know, played his music and got you energized his audiences, but did not talk about politics, or war, or service or anything like that. And that night, when at- Muller's insistence, and some of the other organizers of the concert, had the perimeter of the stage proper, not the larger part of the audience. Wheelchair accessible and had nothing but Vietnam vets, mainly most of them moved to Vietnam vets around at that stage, that that was the night but Springsteen came out from behind the curtain and he [inaudible], you know, he-he was so moved by that. And he knew that could have been him. It was again, that moment that we talked about. And I have talked about, you know, growing up hardscrabble, the way Bruce did, you know, probably first drummer, Bart Haynes was killed in Vietnam. He knew it was it was it was working class kids like himself and his buddies, who went over there. That is what John Fogarty and CCR knew too, could have been. It could have been him. And having this moment where he was taking all that in. And, and then he, he decides to sing, Who Stopped the Rain? And Muller, I think just, you know, captured that when he talked us about it. He is still, I think if he almost levitates, when-when he does, because he knew that was not just a great moment for Bruce. And it was, but it was a wonderful moment for Vietnam vets. Because then Bruce, you know, Born in the USA, came partly out of that experience. And he stood up for that and did things for-for Bobby's organization, and for others. And he is still doing I mean, and he, I think, maybe always had [inaudible], but he-he brought that out that night and that concert, and I think Bobby captured beautifully in the book. SM: 1:36:02 You talk about the fact that the Vietnam Veterans of America was might be going under without the support of that concert- DB: 1:38:36 Correct. SM: 1:38:37 -that was put together. DB: 1:38:37 Exactly [crosstalk] SM: 1:38:38 And then of course, the other artists start doing concerts for them. DB: 1:38:41 Yep, that is what Bobby would tell you. For sure. SM: 1:38:44 Yeah, I said, I think it is a great part. And it leads into some very good sections in the book too. What is the main What is the main? My question, what is the main message you want future students, faculty and national scholars to know about the purpose of your book, your top your top conclusion after writing your book? Because- DB: 1:39:11 I think, I think there is a few things I think one is music is where memory lives. And I think as you articulated with your quick six songs playlist, and I bet if we talked longer, you would have 60 or 600. SM: 1:39:27 Probably. [laughs] DB: 1:39:28 You know, it is, it-it-it sort of kind of soundtracks our lives and it-it is pain, its joy, it is, it is happiness, it is sorrow, it is everything but it is, it is where align and they found this now through the research and science if they can do with brain scans. It is it is where memories resides right next to music. And that combination I think is-is powerful. I and I think they would even we were talking to people 30, 40 or more years removed from that experience, a song, and a moment could bring everything back. And, and so that is one. The other is that it is a way it is a way to heal. And I do not mean everybody is broken. I think everybody needs to have a little peace and tranquility, and, and hope in their lives. And I think, I think that is the other thing the music did for a lot of these guys. As I said, there is some people we talked to Neil Hoxie, the guy that gave the story about we got to get out of it. I mean, about feel like I am [inaudible]. When he told that story that night to me in his daughter was in his home. I knew that was the night he got back from Vietnam. 45 years after he left. Music it can do that. It can do it for us now. And I think the other thing is, it is never too late to try and bring a soldier and a veteran home. You know, the current vets do not have the music, we the way we had it, they do not have music. And they have their own soundtracks, their own headsets. It is not a shared communal experience. But music is still do that for them, whether it is their music, or whether it is ours, [inaudible] era. And it is we got a lot of work to do, because this generation of men and women, who are now have now become they have surpassed us because so many of us are dying. It is the largest generation of veterans post 911 vets in the country. Now no longer Vietnam vets, and they need, they need to heal, they need to get home. They need to have America there for them. And so, whether it is music, whether it is writing, whether it is you know, dog therapy, whether it is horses, whether it is, you know, nature, we have to we have to continue to work on bringing people home. And frankly, one of the best ways to do that is to stop waging wars that, you know, are in our best interest and frankly, are winnable. SM: 1:42:00 Yeah, that is something I have noticed. I have gone to the Vietnam Memorial ever since I first met Louis Poehler back in (19)93, and I tried to go every year, I have only missed a couple years for Memorial Day and Veterans Day, and I am not a veteran, I feel I must be there. But it is Vietnam veterans have done so many things in terms of when you consider what happened in (19)92. And they were kind of welcomed home for the first time. But they constantly talk about at these events, the importance of caring about those veterans who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan or the Gulf War or any of our, you know, small skirmishes around the world. And so that what happened to us never happens to them. DB: 1:42:47 Yep-yep. And [crosstalk] go ahead. SM: 1:42:54 Certainly, the building of the Wall. Look what look, look what happened after that the World War Two Memorial, the Korean Memorial. And I knew Jan Scruggs is somewhat involved with a group now doing something for Iraq and Afghanistan vets to never forget what they did. Who have taken the lead here. It is Vietnam vets. DB: 1:43:17 Yep-yep. No, I hear you. And, you know, I think, you know, I think CCR was the first group to sort of put it right. And you know, two of them, one of them the Coast Guard, one was in John Ford, he himself was in the, you know, the guard, he could have been activated could have gone a different way. They understood who was fighting, they were the ones that said, you can disagree with the war, but you can support the soldier. Because, you know, for lack of, you know, different situations, it could be you and yeah, I think, I think that is what Vietnam vets got. It is I am not one of those guys that is going to parade around in my uniform, or, you know. SM: 1:43:59 Right. DB: 1:43:59 Memorabilia or anything, and say, you know, somebody spit on me, but I am going to say, you know, shame on you, America for not finding ways to bring us home. You know, other cultures did it, you know, and you look at Native American vets, we have a lot of them in the book, they talk about water rituals, the whole tribe brings you back and helps you to heal. We could have done that as a country because we lost more Vietnam vets after the war, whose names are not on the Wall, to, you know, suicide or agent orange, car wreck, you know, you name it, because they could not get home. They could not make the transition. They were not welcome. They were not cared for. those lives could have saved and there is still lives to be saved. So, we got to do. SM: 1:44:45 Your I know, you said to probably be 600 that I would do but I bet you probably do 600 too. But I want to ask you, Doug, if you could list fives tunes that stand out to you and when you list them what memory comes back? Where were you? Or how when you first heard it or just-just five? DB: 1:45:08 Wow. [laughs] Only five? SM: 1:45:11 Yep. DB: 1:45:12 Okay, well, let us see why that is a great question. Of course, we got to get out of this place has to be on the list because, you know, I was in an EM club. And, you know, enlisted men, you know, in Vietnam, there was a Korean band who were doing a great playlist every day, from country to, to the Doors to Motown, James Brown, they had a guy singing lead, that was really good, and a couple of really cute girls. But man, when they did was that to get out of this place, you know, we all joined arms, put our arms around one another, and sang and sang it with [inaudible] at the top of our lungs. And so, you know, anytime I hear that song, I am like back there. And all the places I have been ever since because we play at all the presentations we do. So that is, you know, that is got to be on the list. Boy, this is a really good question, because there are so many of them. By you know, I got to put what was going on in there too. Because when we started to interview guys, and talk to them about, about the book and interview, and it was not just African American soldiers, we realized that Marvin Gaye had done something really powerful. And what we did not realize it basically, a lot of that had to do with the experience of his brother, Frankie Gaye, who was in Vietnam, and did not have the same kind of luck that Marvin did. And that that song, if you listen to it, if you listen to the album, is really about what a black veteran like Frankie Gaye is facing when he comes home, because the songs never ending start with what was going on. And you go to What's Happening Brother, and Fly the Friendly Skies and Save the Children and Mercy Mercy Me and Wholy holy, you go all the way through and the last song, Inner City Blues, you know, the last lyrics of that, or the, or the first lyrics of what is going on. So, you are going to loop and loop you are in is the kind of loop that Frankie and a lot of Vietnam vets were, and that is, you know, what is going to happen? Is America going to be there for me is-is-is my country going to be there for me? Am I going to make it? Am I going to do drugs? Am I going to stay alive? I get to, you know, what am I what is going to happen? And I think that is that, you know, that when I listened to that now, and Art Flowers does an incredible piece in our book about that, that, you know, that is, that is what it, that is what it is. I mean, it is so it is so powerful. So that is, that is another one that is got to be at the top of the list. I got to think some more here. Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. I mean, it is, it is such a big list. But those are great ones to go through. I think. Probably, like a Rolling Stones band another one for me, because it came out in 1965 when I was graduating from high school, going to college, maybe first generation, you know, my whole life was ahead of me. And, you know, I knew who Dylan was, but I never heard him like that. And there was something about that summer (19)65 I remember either listening to that, or Satisfaction, it seems like those were the songs I heard all summer. And that whole thing of, you know, has a field, you know, to be on your own, like a complete unknown. I mean, what what-what is going to happen, the kind of questions the kind of images, the kind of searching, the kind of wondering, I think, probably, you know, forever sort of footnoted that period of my life for me. You know, Firing Rain, strangely enough. You know, I was in basic training, and there was a guy that would get up every morning, he had a wonderful voice, chubby guy, recording Big Fat Bob, and I did not want to learn his last name, because I did not want to find that on the Wall. I do not remember any of the names other than sort of the nicknames and first names of any of the guys I was in basic training with, because that was one of my opportunities 50- I was one of two college grads, everybody else was 18, 19, 20 and I am sure some of their names are on the Wall. But Bob when he would get us up every morning, when he woke up, he would sing Fire and Rain by James Taylor and he you know, eventually sometimes occasionally we would, we would so we throw pillows at him or swear at him, or scream at him but he got it right and there was something about, that is what we were dealing with we were facing fire and rain. That is how I felt, you know, not knowing what was going to be like what life was going to be like in Vietnam. And-and I just you know, again, I mean there is I could go on and on. I think if on the road to find out by Cat Stevens to for the tournament came out when I was in Vietnam, I have a copy of it that was pressed on a on a bootleg label a guy got from me in Taiwan for $1 I am sure. Cat Stevens never saw any of the money from that. But, you know, that is when I came back. And I did not know what was going to I did not know, I was going through my, you know, Frankie Gaye thing. I did not know what was going to happen. I was driving around making visits to people who had written letters to me in Vietnam, because that is how we kept in touch. And I had, I did not have a clue of what I was going to do or where I was going to go. And, and I remember listening to that song and just, you know, trying to, you know, what is the way home? What is the way out? Where am I headed? SM: 1:51:15 Now, those are great five. Those are fantastic. I tell you, Marvin Gaye song, What's Going on? Golly! I can put the year 1971. The first thing I think of is that song because I was a graduate student and I was working in my brother's insurance company in Philadelphia. And I heard the album came out and I took a break. And Philadelphia and I went to Sam Goody and got the album. And it has been my one of my favorite tunes. And the other thing is, I think a 1967 because that was Light My Fire with the Doors. And I was had a summer job in Cortland, New York, and I had a ride. I did not have a car back then. But I was in my first or second year at Binghamton, and I had a summer job there. And the guy was riding with on the way home when he we blast that song. Oh, well, every single night? Because he had tea at a tape deck, and he would put it Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, my golly. And so I look forward to that every night after getting out of work over, you know, I was tired, but boy did that wake me up. So I have one other thing that another quote from your book, and then I got one other thing, and then we are done. This is something I think is very great, or a really great line that you put in the book. "For many vets music was an emotional touchstone for connecting with the wound parts of themselves. The Blues can help produce and confirm the value of their lives so they can see another day." And now that you were talking about the blues in there, and the blues tunes that people listened to in Vietnam, but there is so much truth there because of the trauma you have already discussed about. That the trauma that Vietnam vets went through was also the trauma that African Americans went through in slavery, and how they have been treated in their history. So that was excellent. Before I asked my final question, I want to read this if-if it is okay, it is a- it is a part of an interview that you did with Gerald McCarthy, who you remember that, and I do not want to be too long vided here. But I think it is important because this is his comments here. "Now it is easier to look back and see our ignorance for what it was an acre in, spawned by our youthful disregard for authority in reality, a way we all have not seen what we should have recognized. Many years later, the poet Sonia Sanchez, would tell my writing class at Attica prison. If you are here on purpose, it means you all come back on purpose. And I know she was speaking about prison and recidivism and the racism inherent in the penal system and society. But instead, I remembered the men, especially the soul brothers I had served with in Vietnam who did come back to face the same things again and again, at home and in war overseas. It is easy to be critical when you have the force of history behind you. When you see that the deaths we witnessed in Vietnam and afterwards, we are connected. So I must confess that the sweet sound a sweet soul music we loved and dance to was not escape a return to the world we thought we knew but did not know a glimpse into the time that seemed an essential part of us. And this way music was our youth and a connection to the things we shared class and work and war. It was essential because it did not divide us or stress our differences or divisions. I thought that was a great part of an interview that you did. You went, I am basically done. DB: 1:53:25 Oh yeah. I got to go. So last question. SM: 1:55:04 The last question is this. People will listen to this interview years from now 50 years from now what words of advice would you give to these young students or faculty members or national scholars who will listen to this interview? DB: 1:55:22 Open your ears listen, to listen to music that speaks to you, but also music that you are not as familiar with. And you know, if you can maybe lend somebody who is struggling a little and did something different than you especially, they deserve. Help me to get back home. SM: 1:55:46 Very good. Thank you very much. Great, fine. Are you still there. Yeah, I want to thank you very much for doing the interview and actually going over again, what we lost in the very beginning earlier today. Thank you very much. What will happen is the university will send you a copy of it through the- your digital email, and then you can listen to it and hopefully approve it, and then we can place it on site. Thank you very much for all you do. Please say the thank you to your co-author. Because you are doing something very important and I think your book should be required reading in. I think we are going to I am going to push it here at Binghamton when they had had the (19)60s course. You take care. Thank you. Bye now. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Doug Bradley https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/000696ef16f8a1b775ca66cdf3b8fe86.jpeg 87fa97bed7eddf1bca3902961b20db6a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d2e688258deebd37298cd55da6258343.mp3 4917d224f3595ce1fc03ee6f20bf3eca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-08-30 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Edward Fisher Year of Graduation 1971 Biographical Text A Harpur alumn, Dr. Fisher completed his Doctor of Medicine at New York University School of Medicine and his Master of Public Health at Chapel Hill. Dr. Fisher spent the majority of his career as a Professor, educating future doctors and scientists. He came to direct departments in both vascular biology and cardiovascular medicine. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Edward Fisher Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fisher, Edward; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Description An account of the resource A Harpur alumn, Dr. Fisher completed his Doctor of Medicine at New York University School of Medicine and his Master of Public Health at Chapel Hill. Dr. Fisher spent the majority of his career as a Professor, educating future doctors and scientists. He came to direct departments in both vascular biology and cardiovascular medicine. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Dr.-Ed-Fisher.mp3 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-08-30 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 91:52 minutes IIIF Item Metadata UUID 4c2d8557-c66c-4b45-aacd-fd0bab228155 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3348eb13a7fbf9492009583c8460dff2.jpeg 40e68f45bb219cb62069d3b84fa6055f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c4ac9dada0dbb986ea5873d3c1bac139.mp3 295a99c60b6ab8f7d5e9a10ca215de33 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 5 July 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerome "Jerry" Raik and Dr. Barrie Raik Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Jerry Raik is director of the Havurah School at Ansche Chesed on the upper west side of Manhattan. At Havurah, elementary school students learn a wide variety of Jewish subjects, primarily through the arts. Before that, Jerry had "the opportunity and good fortune to 'stay home' and be a significant daytime caregiver to each of his three children. <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"A Harpur collecge alumn, Dr. Barrie Raik went on to become a physician. She studied at The New York School of medicine and was emplyed at the Weil College of Medicine through Cornell University as well as Columbia- Presbyterian Med. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":{"1":2,"2":2236962},"15":"Calibri","16":12}">A Harpur college alumn, Dr. Barrie Raik went on to become a physician. She studied at The New York School of medicine and was employed at the Weil College of Medicine through Cornell University as well as Columbia- Presbyterian Med. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jerome "Jerry" Raik and Dr. Barrie Raik Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Raik, Barrie ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Jerry Raik is director of the Havurah School at Ansche Chesed on the upper west side of Manhattan. At Havurah, elementary school students learn a wide variety of Jewish subjects, primarily through the arts. Before that, Jerry had "the opportunity and good fortune to 'stay home' and be a significant daytime caregiver to each of his three children. A Harpur college alumn, Dr. Barrie Raik went on to become a physician. She studied at The New York School of medicine and was employed at the Weil College of Medicine through Cornell University as well as Columbia- Presbyterian Med. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Jerry-_-Dr.-Barrie-Raik.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-07-05 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 86:37 minutes Language A language of the resource eng IIIF Item Metadata UUID f98efeef-1c10-45dd-8d86-ee91a87b8d61 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a382eceb0faecbdaf7dd47a854a6cbcd.mp3 a9452bb99f43db86382c7aa66260cf8e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4838a87ced4f2edc0dcd60ca4fe94ba5.jpg 7a2d9234b6877671dc3a4db39bf1851f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John F. Spiegel Year of Graduation 1965 Biographical Text John Spiegel, PhD, retired in 2015 after a 49-year-career as a student service professional at Nassau Community College. His experience included work as counselor, supervisor, director of Academic Advisement and ultimately, building the college’s Student Services Center. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: John Spiegel Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 26 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) JS: 00:02 Very impressive. [laughter] IG: 00:03 So please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are. JS: 00:18 Okay. My name is John Spiegel. I was born on June 11, 1943. Um, some of my classmates knew me as Jack, which was a nickname I acquired in high school, and some of my high school graduate friends who also came to Harpur brought that so some people know me as Jack Spiegel, and where we are in terms of the interview? IG: 00:46 Yes, physical location. JS: 00:49 We are sitting in-in my living room at 98 Riverside Drive and in Manhattan, which is on 82nd Street, and it is about 1:45 in the afternoon on January 26. IG: 01:06 Okay, so just tell me what-what do you do for a living? What is your line of work? JS: 01:15 Okay, well, I am retired. IG: 01:18 Yes. JS: 01:19 I um, I worked, had a career spanning 49 years, retired in September 2015 and I worked as a student service professional for Nassau Community College on Long Island. JS: 01:39 In various capacities, both as direct counselor, advisor, supervisor of programs, coordinators of offices, and finally, my last incarnation there was as the Director of Academic Advisement in a place that did not have an advisement center, and needed one badly, and I initiated that project and made it come to life, which I am very proud of. IG: 01:39 Yeah. IG: 02:09 That is interesting, okay. So maybe tell us, let us go back to your- JS: 02:15 Sure. IG: 02:16 -beginnings and tell us where you grew up. JS: 02:19 I grew up in Inwood, Manhattan. So I am a New York City kid. Inwood is the northernmost community in the island of Manhattan, and that is where I grew up and went-went to high school, Stuyvesant. I commuted to Stuyvesant High School from there and-and that was my, you know, at the age of 18, went, went to Harpur, and never came back to Inwood, except for a few months, maybe to live with my parents when I was between- when I was on a leave of absence from work, traveling. IG: 02:55 So who were your parents? What did they do? Where did they come from? JS: 03:01 My parents were Viennese-Jewish refugees--came from initially, they were in England in- from 1938 to 1940 having barely escaped the Nazis in-in-in Austria, my father was actually a political prisoner in the Dachau concentration camp, and was through some political connections, through my aunt in Washington, which are too detailed to go into, you know, at this point where they were able to get him out of the camp, which was before the war, and that at that time, there was still possibilities people were put in there for political reasons, rather than-than just religious. So he would if that did not happen, I would not be sitting here talking today, and my mother was also, you know, Viennese, and she was able to get out, you know, in (19)38 and go to England for two years, and then they emigrated here to the States. IG: 04:08 And so what do they do in the United States when they came? JS: 04:13 Right. Well, so my father was a psychiatric social worker. He was trained as a lawyer in-in Austria, but could not practice here, and I think, decided not to pursue the law. I think the war, you know, had a big and prewar had a big influence on-on his career direction. My mother was a seamstress. She would do alterations for- in local tailor shops. And that was, that was her primary. I mean, she did not work full time, but that is how she made money. When she did when she did work. IG: 04:51 Um, were there, were there expectations for you to go on with your uh, higher education? JS: 05:01 Oh, absolutely. I mean, there was, there was a clear message. My father was, you know, had achieved Bachelor of Law Degree in Austria, and he was a very educated man. He would constantly let me know how much he knew [laughter] and how much I did not, and but it was clear there was no, there was no alternative that was what was going to happen, which was okay with me, except when I got angry at him, and could use the fact, you know, that I was angry at him, I would use it so I am not going to college. But no, there was no, there was no doubt that that was the track that I was on as to what, where that was going to lead. He never- the one thing I can say for him is that he never put pressure on me to go in a particular direction. You know, his- the message was, you know, you- it is important for you to be educated, which I totally bought into. So. IG: 06:10 And what were your reasons for going to Harpur? JS: 06:14 Okay, this- it was not my first choice. Um, I- you know- IG: 06:24 What was your first choice? JS: 06:25 My first choice was Oberlin College, and I was not accepted there. My second choice was Colby College in Maine. I was accepted there, but it was apparently not financially feasible. Binghamton was or Binghamton, you know, there was no Binghamton at the time, it was Harpur. I had researched it. I remember sitting in my local public library looking at the catalogs, and I said, this sounds pretty good. And I heard about it. And certainly the cost was very-very appealing. And I convinced my father to drive me up there. So we took a trip, and I liked what I saw. I liked what they had to say. And so this really became a viable alternative for me as a way of going, being able to go away to school, because I did not want to stay home. I needed to get out of there--very badly needed that get away from home. So this, it worked. And once-once I decided to go. My only issue at the time was, you know, when I would say to people, they would ask me, where you going to college? I would say, “Harpur.” They would say, “Harvard.” “No,” I say “No, Harpur, it is, it is an upstate in Binghamton. It is part of the State University.” So there was a lot of that, because it was really pretty much an unknown entity at that time. So there was, that was an interesting sort of things, like, I would come back and see my friends and neighborhood and we would have this conversation. But you know that, you know, I was so enthralled with what was happening there and in terms of what I was learning, you know, that any of that anxiety about the prestige or status of or you know, what exactly this place really was about, you know, all fell away. So this was 1961. IG: 08:22 Yeah. What was your reputation of Harpur at the time among your friends? JS: 08:29 And, well, those who knew about it, yeah, those who knew about it said it was, it was difficult to get into. And, you know, I do not remember exactly, you know what-what the average was, but it was pretty clear you needed to have, like, a highs in the 80s or 90 average in high school to get in. It was, I do not think there was an SAT entrance requirement. I think it was pretty much high school average. And you know, that enabled me to. So I knew, I knew it was selective, and certainly because-because the price was so incredibly reasonable that it really became a real alternative for a lot of people. And there were, there must have been 10 or 15 people who went from Stuyvesant to-to Binghamton, you know, to Harpur. IG: 09:22 Including Ron Bayer. JS: 09:23 Right. IG: 09:24 Do you remember what the tuition was? JS: 09:28 Yes, $162.50 per semester. Is that exact enough? IG: 09:33 Unbelievable. JS: 09:35 Yes. IG: 09:36 So what-what were your first impressions of as-as a city kid coming to a pretty rural environment. JS: 09:46 Yeah, that is interesting. I often, you know, I talk about the multicultural experience, and it is very-very specific for- to me, um in the sense that I felt like--okay, I am upstate, and I was, I was like, I was a smart lucky city kid, you know. I mean, I do not know if I did not really have an attitude, but I definitely, you know, there was something about, you know, I was sophisticated. I knew it all. And who are these other- who are these Hicks? You know that-that are, that are there. That is embarrassing to talk about, but it is true. That is, that is, that is how I felt. And the other part of it was I felt like I had entered another culture. I was not- they did not know what a bagel was. I would ask for a soda. They would say "What?"--they would call it pop; I believe. And I would say, and then there were a few of those things that were common parts of my language or my- you know, and that they did not know what I was talking about, and I did not know what they were talking about. IG: 11:05 So is it just cultural references or actual words that were different? JS: 11:10 A few words were different. I mean, there were things, you know, some like menu items at certain restaurants. I mean, speedies are very big. They are very big in Binghamton, these sort of lamb on a spit that you could go into a bar and get, you know, and they give you a piece of bread, and you would- IG: 11:30 A kebab. JS: 11:31 Yeah, but it was called a speedy, and there would be a so- that was different. But I think, you know, sort of the biggest shock was people spoke with a different language, different accent, and we called it the flat and-and I was like, so-so some of my friends, some-some of the guys on my floor and my freshman year, they would say, "Hi, Jan" and-and I would say, I would say "Hi," and it is a, wow, I do not understand. I am only 190 miles away from New York City, and the people talk different. So it was really, you know, so that was, that was, you know, the beginning of my multicultural experience. You know, there, there were, there were kids from farms. There were kids from upstate cities and towns, very smart, but I- my first reaction was, oh, they-they do not know anything. They are dummies. They talk funny. I mean, this is, you know, so part of my educational process was, over my years, there was to get to know a lot of these guys, these folks, and find out that, you know, that was all nonsense and-and there was some incredibly smart, you know, wonderful people, you know, who I looked at like- I mean, I did not spend, you know, as a kid, I did not spend a lot of time out outside of New York, New York City, other than traveling with my parents and, you know, to Canada, maybe, and New England. Anyway, I knew people in Maine spoke differently, because we spent a lot of time in Maine when I was a kid, but- IG: 13:17 During the summer? JS: 13:19 During the summer, yeah. So I do not know if that is the kind of thing you are, you are interested in, but that was sort of that with but I refer to that as-as you know, my multicultural experience in college, I mean, most of the students, I mean, I could maybe remember two or three African American students. There was one student from Africa while I was there. There, I do not remember- there may have been students from other countries aside from that, but I- not from, you know, do not come to mind. So anyway, that was, you know, I tell people about that sort of, you know, it felt very much when I thought about it, because you, when you when you hear people from Ohio or Western New York talk. That is they have the flat. I said, Oh yeah, I know that. That is, you know, so we would, we would laugh about that kind of thing and, but just in terms of, there was that clear, you know, upstate versus downstate sort of cultural thing going on, and it was, it was pretty good natured, I would say, for the most part. And you know, they would laugh at us, we would laugh at them. And, you know, and- IG: 14:30 So, how would they laugh at you? JS: 14:32 Well, I do not know, you know, it was very subtle, but, you know, it was, it was, it was, you know, it was not that it was like [crosstalk] that, well, no, it was more like, you know, some, you know, these guys are, you know, wise asses and no, know it all and, you know. But I mean, it was not that. It was definitely more our side, the downstate, Westchester, New York City, Long Island attitude towards, you know, it so, it was our own provincialism that was much more dramatic. I think you would not hear it as much expressed, at least in my- in our presence, you know. So, that was a dynamic. IG: 15:22 What was residential life like? How I mean after-after classes? How would you spend your time in the dormitories? And did you mix with these students from upstate New York? JS: 15:41 Not, you know, not socially, initially. I mean, there, let me put it this way, the in on the floor, in the dorm, we- there was, you know, there was a sense of belonging to the floor. There was an identity on the floor. One of the things that I think made it more dramatic was the fact that there was a shortage of dorm space, so people were tripled in rooms, and so there was, you know, there was a lot of congestion, but it also forced people to interact. You know, here is an example. One of the people I roomed with was a friend of mine from Stuyvesant, and there was a fellow from upstate in our room, and I liked him a lot more than as it turned out, living with my-my friend who I decided to live with, I- he drove me crazy, and I had and I had to get out of the room and for the next semester. So, you know, that was definitely something but, but we tended to do things, certain things, together as a floor, we would go to basketball games together. The team was especially good that year, and we were very excited. We go to the home game. Sometimes we went into road games, and so there was, there was interaction on the floor. We would visit in each other's rooms and laugh, and the RA would hold floor meetings, and there was a lot of kidding around. And so you know that it did happen in that context. But seemingly, when we went outside of the dorm in terms of who we would spend time with, it tended to be people that we, you know, came from the New York area, at least initially, in the first and when I joined one of the social clubs in my sophomore year. And we had primarily downstate people, but there were a few upstate people, and you know, so there was [crosstalk] IG: 17:48 So, tell us about the clubs, the social clubs. What were like- which do you- did you belong to? JS: 17:54 It was Caledonian Society, and I was very attracted to that group of young fellows, and couple of them, one of the things that appealed to me is that they had very couple of very creative people and very funny people, and it was just a lot of fun being with them. And it was really an enjoyable part of my experience there. You know, it is interesting the- you know, I never quite understood the strict guidelines that they had about there. You could not have a house, hazing practices were severely, you know, restricted. There was some hazing, but there was no physical hazing. Um, and uh- IG: 18:44 So what kind of when you talk about hazing? JS: 18:48 Well, you know, you they would send you on, you know, trips. They-they would grill you. Sometimes they would make you do, you know, errands, you know, I mean silly things. I think the toughest thing was just find the final night was they, a panel of them grill you and start to accuse you of doing all kinds of things. And, you know- IG: 19:20 Was it meant to be taken with a grain of salt? Was it meant to be humorous or...? JS: 19:26 Um, well, I, you know, what I think is they-they had already decided to take me in. So it was that, was that decision is made, but now they just wanted to make me think that they were going to reject me. So it was, it was a little manipulative, but that is as bad as it got. I unfortunately took it very seriously. I thought they would try to kick me out, and I kind of lost it, but so they, you know, they, but so I finally figured I was a little paranoid. So. IG: 20:00 As-as many city kids are, yeah. JS: 20:02 So anyway. IG: 20:03 So what- I am just curious, what kind of things did the social club engage in? JS: 20:09 Well, they- we had- we participated in intramurals. There was softball. That was flag football. We had; we-we did- had parties off campus parties. It was a social thing. And, you know, dances just with the club, but most of it was just spending time together. And you know the sense of identity you had if you went to a beer blast, which was some of what they called the big events, social events. IG: 20:48 Downtown? JS: 20:49 Downtown, off campus, you had a mug that was everybody in a social club had a mug with their name on it and the seal of the social club. And that was a thing about you went to, you know, with the beer mug, and you would spend time with them at the beer blast, and where you would spend time their rooms in the dorm and but it was primarily parties, and it was intramural athletics. I do not remember too much else. Sometimes we saw each other in New York when we came home, but that was rare. So. IG: 21:29 So-so what- let us see. So, what were- was your experience of academics like at Harpur? What do you remember of that? Do you have memories of faculty? JS: 21:42 Oh, absolutely. IG: 21:42 Who made a particularly strong impression on you? JS: 21:46 Yes, um, I took one of my favorite courses was what they called Soc Sci, which was Social Science 101, and the instructor was Philip Piaker, P, I, A, K, E, R. He was in the accounting department. Now, I thought this was very interesting. The accounting was part of the social science department at that time. It was a real eye opener for me. He was a wonderful instructor. It was a core course, and one of the things that I think that they did very well is all new students had to take this class. So everybody shared the experience, and just in English. So in everyone, everyone, and there was no remedial English, you know, everybody took English 101, and sometimes they have lectures in the auditorium, whatever it was called at that time. IG: 22:47 Where was the auditorium? JS: 22:48 It was on the old administration building, which, when you come up the center drive is like a loop. And was on the right, that was the administration building and admin classroom. It was called Classroom Administration Building because the administration was in there and there were classrooms and there was the lecture or the big lecture hall, which was 600 seats, which served as a theater concert hall, was a multi-purpose facility. And so everybody who was taking English 101, which pretty much the whole freshman class would-would pile in there and-and some one of the designated professors would speak, depending on who it was, it became a source of entertainment and maybe a chance to fool around a little bit, whether we were somewhat contemptuous of the way the person spoke or what they were saying. It was a little just slightly disrespectful, not in a very, you know, kind of overt or acting out way. But like with people that, you know, we would like make remarks to each other side by side. Um, one of the things is, you know, I think that somehow it is hard to describe, but the people who went to Harpur and the group that I spent time with, there was a certain sense, a banter, a sense of humor that we share. And when we get together, we-we still, you know, that very much resonates. And one of the things that you know, one of the- my overall impressions there was, there was not a lot of stimulation. It was, you know, Binghamton itself was not- IG: 24:49 You mean, outside of the classroom? JS: 24:50 Well, outside the classroom, yeah, I mean, you know, there was the snack bar, that was the big social area and there, and there was not a lot of- was not a lot to do. There was, there were, there were programs, but it was pretty stark. IG: 25:07 What kind of programs? JS: 25:09 Well, cultural events, cultural events. And I got involved in that. I was on this convocations committee, sponsoring some of that, with some of the leaders there, but it was a pretty- I call it somewhat of an austere existence, in a way. And I mean, I had a car starting my sophomore year, but there was not really too many, there were not too many places to go for just a change of scene. So it became, you would go to the class, you would go to the library, there would be the snack bar, and then you go back to your dorm. And so it was a sort of repetitiveness about it that was a little, I do not know, kind of psychologically, I think draining in a way. And I cannot think of the right word for it. It was interesting that many years after I graduated, I saw this article about the fact that the southern tier of New York has the most overcast days of any place in the country. And I said to myself, that is why I was so depressed for so often. [laughs] So, you know, there were times, but I think it was more that there was sometimes the existence was a little mundane, and compared to, you know, sort of my expectation of a kind of a rah, rah college life type of experience. Athletics-athletics were de-emphasized, And, you know, so that was, you know, in this so there were, you know, limits on certain social events, like, you know, the fraternities. Not that would have been great to have, you know, physical hazing, but you know the fact that there were limits. I mean, there was a clear message, you were, you were here to do you know you were here to be a student and that, and that is your job. You know which-which is fine. I am just saying that. You know, sometimes I think I was something- I was a little bit surprised. I was I felt academically overwhelmed when I came there. IG: 27:43 So what courses were you taking? JS: 27:45 Well, I started, I think I had a theater class my first semester, English, Social Science, trying to think what the others were. Oh, yeah. Oh, I had, I had, oh, this, this is interesting. I was thinking, originally, thinking of majoring in psychology. So I was, I said, well, psychology is in the science department. I do not understand. I had never heard of behavioral psychology. Well, that is what it was. It was behavioral psychology. And I said, well, when do you learn about people, as opposed to having a white rat to run through a skinner box, you know? So that was a little bit, you know, and I was a little bit disappointed in that, in that regard, and I ended up being a political science major, so I was a little bit unprepared for that. I was, I think I was, I was a little bit disappointed. But by the same token, I was very taken by the-the academic rigor and intellectual sort of standing that was and the quality of what was being taught, and the challenge involved in-in-in learning and learning new things. IG: 29:04 Any classes or professors that stand out? JS: 29:08 Well, you know, actually, I actually thought that the psychology was very interesting for what it was. It was not my, you know. And I liked the, I liked the professor who was funny, Professor Deane, I think, was the primary instructor for the psychology class. So you would have two lectures a week, I think, and then you have a three-hour lab with a white rat. And I was bitten by the rat once because I was carrying the box and my thumb was sticking through it. But, you know, I survived that, obviously. And so the- I mentioned Professor Piaker, the social science and Professor Deane for psychology, I do not maybe Professor Santangelo was my English 101, instructor. I think that is it, you know, I think that is who it was, and I do not and the theater class, oh, yeah, I do not remember his name. I think it was theater that I because I had to write a play. IG: 30:14 Really? JS: 30:16 Yeah. IG: 30:16 Did you enjoy that? JS: 30:18 Writing a play? No, [laughs] it was totally beyond me. Um the yeah-yeah, so, I mean, there was some, there was some great, there were some great teachers. You know, definitely great teachers. Okay, so let us see- IG: 30:36 Do you feel that you got a well-rounded education from Harpur? JS: 30:42 Absolutely. IG: 30:42 Yes. JS: 30:43 Absolutely. IG: 30:44 Yeah. JS: 30:46 I, you know, I once counted the number of term papers that I wrote while I was there, and it was 52 and I-I-I had a problem. I mean, I am a good writer. I am, you know, in terms of that respect, you know, writing papers and letters and putting words together, but I took a long time to do things, and I, you know, tended to, you know, drag it out and hand in things late, but I did learn how to do research. I learned, you know, what scholarship is I, you know, I spent a lot of time in the library and, you know, going through sources. And I feel like, I mean, I have a PhD, but I feel like the fundamentals of academic rigor and how I approached learning and research were-were definitely found- IG: 31:56 S IG: 31:56 Scholarly research? JS: 31:57 Yes, one of the things that one big message that always came through was the notion of the scientific method in in social science research, and the difference between facts and values and facts and value judgments, something that does not seem to matter much these days, but, you know, I always, you know, kept that in mind, and it was one of the clear things that I took away from the place. You know, I just want to mention that I used to say to myself, you know, I have been in class. It was- I would get back there for a semester, you know, it has been, I would say some one week into classes, but I am three weeks behind. I say to myself, how did that happen? In terms of the assignments? That is what it felt like. It was very-very demanding. It was several years later, after I graduated, I said, you know, they worked our asses off there. I said, what, you know? What was going on? What was going on? Well, I found out that the educational model was from the University of Chicago, and they decided they were going to export that model and-and bring it to Harpur. And, you know, they basically, I felt like we were going to throw a lot of work at these people. And let us you know, let us see what happens. Whoever makes it, makes it, and if you do not, you flunk out. And one of my criticisms that I do not think, at least from my perspective, I was not prepared to, in order, in order to be like an A student, I would have had to bury myself in the library. And some of my friends did, and they got and they but, you know, they were comfortable doing it. I was, I could. I had trouble dealing with the demand and the demand of the work there, and it was very- it was frustrating me, and I was a good student in high school to the get there, and suddenly, from being an A student to being a C plus B minus student, I was, like, shocked. I did not understand how did this happen. How did I get stupid? And so [crosstalk] IG: 34:34 -is such an excellent school. JS: 34:35 Yeah-yeah, of course. So that was, that was a bit of, that was a bit of a shock to me and but I was critical of, you know, at-at the of the amount of work. And, you know, in some ways I was, you know, I was, I think I was unprepared for the level of knowledge that I thought that they expected of us. I mean, like, for example, I remembered a philosophy course, I do not, I do not want to sound negative, I am telling you, you know, for me, it is a primarily a good experience, but there were negatives to it. You know, do not like to be critical, but the philosophy course was pretty abstract. The instructor was pretty well-known person. He threw using an extensive amount of Latin terms as part of his explanation, a priori, a posteriori, you know, ipso facto. And, my god, am I supposed to know what all of this is? And how do I, you know, how do I find out? How do I- okay, well, there was no internet yet. I was, fortunately, after, you know, a little while, I went to the bookstore, you know, if I said I got to figure something out, and I was able to get this book called The Dictionary of Foreign Terms, and it saved my life. But it was that, it was that kind of thing. I said, "Wow, I do not know what he is talking about," how and there is no primer here, what you know, it was, you know? So I think that there was, there were great teachers, but maybe not so much paying attention to what was happening with the students and their-their ability to- IG: 36:38 Comprehend? JS: 36:38 -yeah, to comprehend and absorb. You know, what was taking place. IG: 36:42 What just explained to us, what is the, what was the University of Chicago model that you followed? Is it a great books core, liberal arts core? JS: 36:51 It is probably liberal arts, but I think it was the core curriculum was a big part of it. And I, you know, I mean, I, my sense is, first of, you know, the caricature of University of Chicago is one of extreme academic rigor and not much else going on there. I mean, it is a beautiful campus, but that this, you know, the students do not have a lot of fun. [laughs] That is, that is, that is, you know. So it was like it was the amount of material. And so, you know, we are going to throw this at you, and you know, and you know, if you make it, that is good, and if you do not, you flunk out, you know, too bad. So you know that there so in terms of support for people who might have been having difficulty, there was a little, I do not think there was much concern about that. Anyway. IG: 37:41 This was a time when social mores were beginning to change. How did you and your friends respond to the pressures of your day, of the day? JS: 38:05 Well, you know, I was thinking about that because I had a feeling that question might come up. Uh, there used to, you know, we were right on the cusp of some of that change. The girls had curfew, to be back in the dorm by 10:30 at night. It seemed bizarre to me, you know, you would be sitting in the snack bar and they would be running out to go back to the dorm on Saturday nights. I think it was maybe one o'clock, I do not know. So that was, you know, and they had, they had a couple of very mature women who were- IG: 38:48 RAs? JS: 38:49 No, they were like the residence hall directors, but they were, they were like, they were not young, trained people. They were more like, you know, matrons. And there was a Mom Hardy and the Mom something they called the mom Hardy, you know, it was 1961 and one of them, you know, was, like, very stern, and, you know, sternly she was projecting, protecting their virginity of the student of the women there. And, you know, they- so we had a, you know, this kind of an attitude about them, you know, that is just, this is so silly, but, you know, so I think we came in with, like, I do not, I do not get this kind of level of- it just, it seemed archaic, okay, but in terms of our own experience, there were regulations about dress. So, you know, you were not allowed to wear shorts to go to the, to go to the resident, to go to the, you know, the dining room. IG: 40:01 And classes probably/ JS: 40:02 Well, not, you know, people did not talk about that, but, you know, a bunch of us would get together and say, "What is this nonsense?" In fact, I think there were. I think you-you also, I am not certain about this, but let us stick with the shorts, because that is a part of it. And so bunch of us started talking, said, "We do not like this. This is ridiculous. Why cannot we wear shorts?" So we had, like, a protest, and we decided we were going to we- and these women were in charge of monitoring, you know, the entrance to the dining hall. And one day, like a couple of 100 people just show up in shorts, and let us say, let us, let us see what they do, you know. And they ended, they just caved at that point, because it was like, you know. So, you know, it was like, it was like, the first time that I actually participated in some kind of social action, you know. And although with an unlimited scale. IG: 41:01 How did it feel? JS: 41:03 Oh, this was great. I mean, I, you know, there was a little bit of risk, I mean, to it, you know, but we did not know what was going to happen, if, you know, they made a stand and but it was kind of like the tide had had turned. And then, you know, when you think about, I mean, what are they going to make an issue? How big of an issue are they going to make about, you know, men wearing shorts, you know, so that, that you know, that was done at that point. Um- IG: 41:40 What other activism, if any, were you engaged in on campus? JS: 41:45 Well, one-one was a bit risky. There was, there were stories about the campus physician being having alcohol in his breath when he saw students, and at the time, I was on the student government I think maybe I was a sophomore. I had run for student government representative, and I was, I was either designated or volunteered, or both, to investigate this, and started talking to people, interviewing people, students, and there would, you know, there were, there were reports of multiple, you know, incidents of this. And I was called in. I guess word got out. I was called in by the Dean of Students and confronted about this and threatened. And I do not remember what he threatened me with, but I think he tried to scare me about, you know, that I was messing with was something that was quite dangerous, and somebody's reputation, yada-yada, you know, I do not remember the details of it, and I, you know, I backed off. I figured, you know, I-I am out here pretty much, you know, on my own in a kind of, you know, dangerous, you know, neighborhood. And, you know, I was a little bit concerned I want, because I wanted to be an RA, and I was a little bit concerned also about, what is this going to do to my reputation, if I am going to be perceived as a troublemaker? So I backed off. So that was an individual thing. The other thing that was going on so 1964 fast forward to the Berkeley Free Speech Movement. And so in terms of my own involvement, we had a sympathy demonstration on the quad. We held up signs supporting the members of the Free Speech Movement, and we stayed out there for an hour or something. I was sponsored by our own student government, so that was participating, you know, in that kind of thing, there was a lot of more serious activism on the campus that I was less familiar with, some of the there was an attempt to sign up students to do voter registration in the south. And in fact, they may have even been efforts to get people to participate in the Freedom Rides. And that was an area that I was just too anxious to, you know, felt like was extremely dangerous and would was not comfortable doing that. And there were some people who activists and doing things, and I think more locally, and Binghamton volunteer involvement and, and, you know, but I was not my, my primary act activity. He was in student government trying to make the student life better for the people- IG: 45:06 On a local- JS: 45:07 Yeah, on the campus, IG: 45:09 Do you remember JFK's assassination? JS: 45:11 Oh, my God, yes. I can see it in my mind coming out of class, and people are gathered around portable radios and listening, and, you know, President has been shot, and I was like, "Oh my God. “And, you know, within half an hour, you know, it was over from the time, what am I- overtime. And one of them, you know, life changing, devastating time I was, I remember that I remember getting the Sunday New York Times afterward, and reading it in-in my dorm room, and just being totally, you know, such a state of shock and grief about-about the whole thing, you know, because at the time, you know, he was, we very much identified with the youth and energy of this, of this guy, and, you know, refreshing note that he-he brought. And so that was a pretty, pretty horrible moment. And, you know, not being thrilled with who the new president was, and so without really knowing much about him, but just the way he contrasts with the way he presented himself. And I could not, could not relate to his way of-of communicating. IG: 46:41 What about the Vietnam War? Was there already fear of being drafted and or was that really- JS: 46:52 Um, okay. You know, the dates and when things occurred, you know, I know it was August of (19)64 that the Tonkin Gulf incident occurred. I do not know if you know my- I understood that that was a very dangerous situation, but it did not come home to me in terms of what this meant, or possibly could mean. There was a new professor in the Political Science Department who had the word was out. He was sort of more conservative, and maybe had been in the CIA or had some kind of background, and that do not remember his name, he was pretty new, you know, he was presented, you know, or so. The word was, it was that he was maybe more conservative than the rest of the faculty, and he made a projection at that point, he- I remember this specifically by such and such a date, a year from now, they are going to be 100,000 US troops. In two years, they are going to be 200,000 and he just sort of like, and I remember sitting there with a bunch, and this was part of his talk about, I think it was about Vietnam, but it may have been more the national defense posture. But I remember, you know, turning to other people say, you know, he is it really, "It cannot be true, right? It is not. He is just, there is just no way that that is going to happen, right?" And sure enough, it all happened. But I remember that was my first sort of like wake-up call, that this something could happen. And then, you know, I think in (19)65 people started to be drafted, and more and more people, and I, I was very nervous about keeping my student deferment. And so I went, you know, I mean, I decided at that point I am going to go to if I can go to graduate school. Let me go to graduate school, because I did not like what was, what was happening. IG: 49:13 So, where did you go to graduate school? JS: 49:16 I went to SUNY Albany for my master's in student services. IG: 49:20 Yeah JS: 49:20 And it was there for a year. And then, you know, when I finished in September of (19)66 I got the position immediately at Nassau. IG: 49:28 And when did you do your PhD? JS: 49:35 I got my- earned my PhD in 1986 from St John's University in counselor education. IG: 49:41 Oh, it is interesting. What other political events impacted you? JS: 49:51 While I was a student, or...? IG: 49:56 You were a student while you were a student, the Bay of Pigs, the failed invasion of Cuba, um- JS: 50:04 What was date of the Bay of Pigs? Was what (19)62? You know- IG: 50:13 Was there fear of Soviet Russia? JS: 50:18 Well, you know the, um- okay, we are maybe talking about the Cuban, Miss Cuban Missile Crisis. You know, that is interesting. Now, in that situation, we knew some bad things were going on, but we, you know now, if you can imagine this situation at that particular time, there was one television on the whole campus. I mean, one television in the student center, in a room that could seat maybe 40-50, people tops standing room would be 60, which is, by the way, as an aside, was the first time we had ever seen the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan Show. It was packed like sardine cans, and it was hysterical. It was like, but you know, it, I felt like the Cuban Missile Crisis was a little bit more remote. I remember being very involved in my studies, and I did not really, I was not really familiar with, sort of the day to day, you know, significance of what was going on. And it was, there were, you know, there were, you know, you heard about things, you know, maybe you saw things, but it was not something that was being talked about, you know, as in the sense that, you know, we were all, you know, there could be a nuclear war, and we could all be gone. I mean, I mean, I mean, I, we grew up with that. It was just another-another one of those episodes this, I mean, more serious, but I was, it did not feel that different from some of the other, you know, the duck and cover drills and, you know, I mean, Kennedy, you know, ran for president on the idea of the missile gap, you know that, and the Russians and their-their missiles, and so I am glad I did not know, you know, my subsequent reading, and you know about it like it was- we were pretty close to a disaster. So anyway, so that so that was, I was not as affected by that, but I would say during my senior year when, you know, I think the Vietnam thing started to become a little bit more dicey. I was very anxious about what was going to happen. And, you know, because my because my own life, in terms of direction, was pretty unclear at that point, I did not have a clear career choice, and it was like, "Oh, my God," you know. IG: 53:15 Did you feel, did you feel support from your fellow students, because they were experiencing the same anxieties? JS: 53:28 You know, we did not talk about it much. I think I do not, I do not recall that it was, in some ways, it was not a reality. You know, we were focused on graduating, finishing, getting out of there and applying to graduate school. That was, you know, a lot of, what are you going to do next? And also, you know, the-the sense of, of, oh my god, this, you know, this experience, this pivotal experience in my life, is going to be over. So there was, there was also some loss that was there. And, you know, my all, I mean, these people who your friends and you, you know, you were very close to your they we re not going to be in your life as much as they were. And I mean, that kind of change was also very- it was, it was scary. It was, it was, it was upsetting. IG: 54:27 Did you stay in touch with any of your classmates? JS: 54:31 Absolutely. It is about half a dozen people from Harpur that I see on a regular basis, and we are very close, and- IG: 54:49 That is very nice. JS: 54:50 Yeah, oh no. It is, you know, it is something that we share and-and then some of them have networks with other friends of people. I know I do not see them that often, but I you know, I ask about them and what this- IG: 55:06 What lessons did you learn from this time in your life? Do you think? JS: 55:14 Well, I have a tremendous respect for knowledge and learning in the truth and um, I, the fact that I learned how to-to write and communicate both verbally and verbally and in writing, and I take a lot of pride in being able to do that. And there is one other thing, so just ask me the question again, IG: 55:57 So what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? What were the major [inaudible] JS: 56:00 Okay, so, well, I would say, among other things, if you, you know, you-you really, if you really want to know what is going on, you have to work very hard to find out. You-you know, truth is a hard thing to get at, and it takes a lot of work to find out what the truth is. You know, I am a history lover, so I spend a lot of time trying to do that, and so I enjoy that a lot. Um- IG: 56:50 Have you pursued your interest in history over the- JS: 56:53 Absolutely, yeah. IG: 56:54 Through reading? JS: 56:55 For reading, from reading. I am in a Lifelong Learning Program now, and you know, I have done some work on some history presentations for them. This [crosstalk] IG: 57:05 Lifelong Learning Program through- JS: 57:08 Actually, it is City College called Quest program, once for adult-adult- IG: 57:13 Wonderful. JS: 57:14 And the other thing I did not mention there, I did a lot of theater there at Harpur, and it was one of the things I really loved doing. And after, and I did some community theater after I left on Long Island. IG: 57:31 As an actor, not as a play writer? JS: 57:32 As an actor. Oh, yeah, not as a play writer. No, I am not a creative writing is not my thing, but-but I would say, and, but now this, this being at this Lifelong Learning thing, has allowed me to get back into it. Because they do, they do Theatrical presentations. They do, you know, we do readings and, you know, there is a show every year, and- IG: 57:55 Sounds wonderful. JS: 57:56 Yeah. So that is, you know, it has allowed me to re-experience some of the joy that was, some of some of the most joyful moments. Our senior, the senior show at in 1965 was Guys and Dolls and sometimes and people still call me by my- the member of the cast- IG: 58:19 You playing? JS: 58:20 Julie. [laughter] So they still say, you know, "There is Big Julie" I mean, it is funny, but that was, you know, that was a, I was a key moment. And I almost did not graduate because I was so busy, you know, with the show, that I-I would still remember that my political science teacher, I got a D in that it was the only D I ever got. He says, "This is a gift." And I said, "Thank you very much, because my parents are coming to graduation," you know. But so, you know, I know. I sometimes tell people that, in many respects, what I majored in college life, but that is sort of what I did. You know, with my in my career, I did, I did love the college experience. It was, it was, there was a lot of vitality in it. And that is what I-I gravitated to, and I ended up spending, you know, my whole life working with college students. And you know that part of the- you know, the educational experience and wanting to make it as dynamic and interesting and challenging as possible. Um- IG: 59:40 What words of advice would you like to leave for maybe students now and for future generations of students listening to these tapes? JS: 59:51 So we are talking about Binghamton students. Are we talking about students? IG: 59:55 Binghamton students? But it could be more general. Third speaker 59:58 Or whoever is going to listen this interview? JS: 1:00:03 Yes, okay, well, oh, my god, daunting. Let me think for a second. Well, I really, I believe in the notion of academic challenge and that it is, you know, even though I cannot say that, I did not practice this, but I- you know, looking for the easy way out is never the good idea is never a good idea. Take something. Take a class that you do not know that much about. Challenge yourself. You know, it is, it can change you. It can make you a better person. Do not just, do not just do things that you are comfortable with, because you are going to lose a lot. You are going to regret a lot, and that is what I mean I used to when I work with students. I would always- we, you know, one of the courses that was offered at Nassau Community College was a speech class, and we did not have a public speaking. We did not have a public speaking at Harpur. But I always say, this is, this is a very important skill. And, you know, it is, it will really help you in your life. And lot of people would be anxious about it, but I just wanted to plant the seed that this is a, this is a good idea. So I think another thing I would attach to that is, you know, the importance of me being able to communicate, both verbally and in writing, but also to-to push yourself into academic areas that you might not be that comfortable with. I mean, you do not want to take it on, to have it be so difficult that it is going to be overwhelming. Where you are, you are going to be so anxious that you cannot function. But how important it is to challenge yourself academically and intellectually. I guess [crosstalk] IG: 1:02:28 You have done that throughout your life? JS: 1:02:32 For the most part. [laughs] I mean, I have not say, you know, I mean, I have not taken, you know, foreign-foreign languages, where I have thought about it, but I guess I just have not been that motivated in that. But I think, you know, I-I-I try to, I try to learn new things if I can, you know, I mean, if I am interested in and just to-to expand my knowledge, and I just find it, it is, it is very interesting. It is very it I s a good way to live. IG: 1:03:09 Any concluding remarks. JS: 1:03:12 Well, I do not know. Concluding remarks, well, you know, I am a little bit out of touch with what it is like to be a student now at Binghamton. I have not been there in about 20 years. I know it is very different. I mean, when we, when I started my there were perhaps less than 1200 students. There was a very small school, everybody you know, kind of knew each other. So I am sure it is very different in character now. But you know, I think something that I feel very strongly about is even though I was, and this is interesting, I was not a shining academic student, you know, in terms of performing, you know, well in terms of what grades, but I learned a lot, and I learned how to learn, and it was, it was all worth it. It was, it was, I mean, it was a tremendously academically challenging place. And despite the fact that I had difficulties, so much has stayed with me in terms of my learning, some of the courses I took, some of the doors that were, you know, were open to me, particularly in-in history, which has become a passion of mine. And you know, it just had a tremendous amount of meaning to me, and I hope that other people will feel the same way, you know, as they move through their lives. IG: 1:05:09 Thank you very much. JS: 1:05:13 You are very welcome. IG: 1:05:17 Thank you. It is a good interview. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John (“Jack”) F. Spiegel Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Spiegel, John F. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource John Spiegel, PhD, retired in 2015 after a 49-year-career as a student service professional at Nassau Community College. His experience included work as counselor, supervisor, director of Academic Advisement and ultimately, building the college’s Student Services Center. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-26 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context John Spiegel.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-26 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 65:19 minutes