52 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cd05137ee5bfa2b4ca10af25ea3dded3.mp3 b68a4c3fbb3a2c6c286faa6322447d26 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2 August 2015 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Abdullah Qassab Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Abdullah Qassab https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/37061bd9e5a237e17eef0de939dd1b72.jpg cbaff6a89f1129c3ab427cae69129623 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4a27b7ab82d692d6d32520796fcdae1c.mp3 bee412c4ec48db5c9522a944d13e6fea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Acel Moore Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 66:31 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Acel Moore (1940-2016) was an old school journalist who won the the Pulitzer Prize. He created the Acel Moore Workshop and hundreds of highschool students have participated in the program."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6979,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"9":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Acel Moore (1940-2016) is a Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper columnist who began his career with the Philadelphia Inquirer.  He began as a copy clerk in 1962 and worked his way toward becoming a staff writer from 1968-1981.  In 1979, Moore won the Pennsylvania Bar Association Scale of Justice Award for his series on the juvenile court system.  During this time he also co-hosted a TV show called Black Perspectives on the News on Philadelphia WHYY Public Television.  In 1973, Moore won the Pulitzer Prize for local investigative reporting for his series on abuse of inmates at Fairview State Hospital. From 1980-1989, he served on the faculty at the University of California-Berkeley where he administered the school's summer program for minority journalists. Through the years he also was a faculty member at Temple University and Florida A & M University. Moore lectured at many colleges all over America and directed recruitment, training, and staff development at the Philadelphia Inquirer where he was Associate Editor and member of the prestigious editorial board. Acel Moore founded the National Association of Black Journalists (NABJ) in 1975 and was honored with the NABJ 2005 Legacy Award. In 1984, he also created the Journalism Career Development Workshop that trained dozens of Philadelphia high school students,  The program continues today in his honor. He was the recipient of many honors right through his retirement in 2004.   Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Human rights movement; Civil Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam War; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Human rights movement; Civil Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam War; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy. Subject LCSH Journalists; Awards—United States; Moore, Acel--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Acel Moore Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moore, Acel ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Awards—United States; Moore, Acel--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Acel Moore (1940-2016) was an old school journalist who won the the Pulitzer Prize. He created the Acel Moore Workshop and hundreds of highschool students have participated in the program."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6979,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"9":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Acel Moore (1940-2016) is a Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper columnist who began his career with the Philadelphia Inquirer. He began as a copy clerk in 1962 and worked his way toward becoming a staff writer from 1968-1981.  In 1979, Moore won the Pennsylvania Bar Association Scale of Justice Award for his series on the juvenile court system.  During this time he also co-hosted a TV show called Black Perspectives on the News on Philadelphia WHYY Public Television. In 1973, Moore won the Pulitzer Prize for local investigative reporting for his series on abuse of inmates at Fairview State Hospital. From 1980-1989, he served on the faculty at the University of California-Berkeley where he administered the school's summer program for minority journalists. Through the years he also was a faculty member at Temple University and Florida A & M University. Moore lectured at many colleges all over America and directed recruitment, training, and staff development at the Philadelphia Inquirer where he was Associate Editor and member of the prestigious editorial board. Acel Moore founded the National Association of Black Journalists (NABJ) in 1975 and was honored with the NABJ 2005 Legacy Award. In 1984, he also created the Journalism Career Development Workshop that trained dozens of Philadelphia high school students,  The program continues today in his honor. He was the recipient of many honors right through his retirement in 2004.   Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource No copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.136a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.136b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 66:31 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fff05d36a35f514f1f5ab56ce055a70f.mp3 a9d01c3e8096dcbd8b4ea3271a285c14 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 9 June 2015 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Adil Sharif Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Adil Sharif https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/500e3562f9c72c9a42f217680a0b000a.mp3 a6893474eec7eafb0d832a5cd32c2531 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:26:41 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Adrian Kachadourian Date of Interview 2/27/2017; 3/30/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Adrian was born in Watertown, Massachusetts to Armenian parents. She attended Boston University and earned a degree in Psychology. While in college, she lived with an Armenian woman who taught her the language in exchange for English lessons. At university, she became more involved in Armenian traditions, attending dances and other cultural events. After graduation, she got married and moved around a bit before settling in Binghamton. Currently, she has five children and plays the organ in a local Armenian church. "}">Adrian was born in Watertown, Massachusetts to Armenian parents. She attended Boston University and earned a degree in Psychology. While in college, she lived with an Armenian woman who taught her the language in exchange for English lessons. At university, she became more involved in Armenian traditions, attending dances and other cultural events. After graduation, she got married and moved around a bit before settling in Binghamton. Currently, she has five children and plays the organ in a local Armenian church. Keywords <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"massacre; church; Turkey; culture; Americanized; Massachusetts; Sunday School; Bulgaria; "}">Massacre; church; Turkey; culture; Americanized; Massachusetts; Sunday School; Bulgaria; traditions; language Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Adrian Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 2 February 2017; 3 March 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:11 JK: Okay, so good morning–good afternoon. My name is Jackie Kachadourian and today is February 27, 2017. I am here with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University Library and I am here with Adrian Kachadourian and could you please state your full name and when you were born? 0:32 AK: Adrian Millicent Kachadourian, born November 20, 1936. 0:40 JK: And what were your parents’ occupations growing up? 0:45 AK: Growing up, my father– my– me growing up? 0:49 JK: Yeah. 0:49 AK: Okay, my father was a farmer who had, um, greenhouse and grew hothouse tomatoes and my mother was a homemaker. 0:59 JK: Okay. And were your parents immigrants to this county of America? 1:04 AK: Yes, uh, not to this county– My father came to this country when he was about three years old but my mother came to this country only after she met my father and married him. 1:18 JK: Okay, and, um, were they– where were they– where did they come from? 1:23 AK: My mother came from İzmir and my father came from Harput. 1:28 JK: Okay, and, um, what caused them to leave their–? 1:32 AK: In relation to my father, there was a warning that–about the massacres before 1915. The late 1800 so they came to America but my father was only three-years-old then. My mother was vacationing and they got the word that there was going to be a gen– A massacre so she did not even go home, she left for Bulgaria and her mother followed her there. 2:10 JK: So, she could not take any of her things she did not bring? 2:13 AK: No, no she had to leave everything because she was on vacation and her mother said you know leave there et cetera. 2:21 JK: So, she came– went to Bulgaria, or she was in Bulgaria? 2:25 AK: She was in Bulg– no she was vacationing and, I guess, Izmir, you know somewhere along the Bosporus but I am not sure that the particulars and so she was visiting her aunt so, uh, so then she went to Bulgaria and her mother met her there. Her father had died of natural causes and her brother had died of in an accident. 2:56 JK: Okay and this was before, right before the genocide happened? 3:00 AK: Right. There was word going around and one of the relatives said, “Does not look good we should get out.” 3:07 JK: Wow! That is crazy. And, um, growing– where– when they, where they were growing was there a lot of Armenians in the area? 3:16 AK: Uh, I would gue– I, I guess so although I do not really know that much about– 3:24 JK: –The demographics. 3:25 AK: About any of that, no. I know that my mother was going to I think what they called it was an American college and but she had–she did not finish because of this she had to flee. 3:39 JK: Yeah. And are both of your parents Armenian, or no? 3:43 AK: Yes. 3:44 JK: Yes? Okay. So that makes you 100 percent Armenian, yeah? 3:47 AK: Yes. [laughs] 3:48 JK: Um, so growing up you had a lot, lot of Armenian, uh, ethic, ethnic, like, cultural things such as, like, food and, like, going to church and things like that, right? 4:03 AK: Well not where my father lived because he lived in a rural town and in those days the nearest Armenian Church was a good an hour to hour and a half away which was Watertown, Massachusetts. That is where I was born and, um. So, whatever culture was taught us was through my mother and my father they spoke Armenian and we understood what they said. They also spoke in Turkish too, but my mother was did all of the ethnic cooking and all of that and, um, but, my father, on my father’s side even though he was one hundred percent Armenian, his family were protestants so I grew up going to the Baptist church even. Because for whatever reason, I do not know why they, they were all I guess born in this country and, um, even though they were Armenian, they spoke Armenian, they somehow rather tied themselves to the protestant church so I grew up in the Baptist church and really did not know that much about the service. Now my mother, was Orthodox Armenian she could read, she could write, she knew the service but when she came to– when she came– when she married my father, um, she was living in the house with many in-laws and so she felt that she could not, you know, present her background and culture because they were so– they just– she just thought that, you know, with all of these in-laws she did not want to make any trouble. 5:52 JK: Yeah, she wants to– 5:54 AK: But she knew, she knew all the songs, the Armenian songs and she sang and she wrote and read and that is as far as we went. And as I said, they spoke Armenian, and we understood but we did not– we did not have to speak back to them in Armenian in order to learn they, they, they– my mother was very cosmopolitan and my father, again, coming to this country was very Americanized. 6:28 JK: Mhm. Yeah, so, um, did bother of your parents– now your mom did speak and write Armenian as you said but did your father write Armenian too or no? 6:38 AK: Um, I am, I am not. I do not think so. He just spoke Armenian. 6:43 JK: And now, how did they learn Turkish? Is it because they are from– 6:47 AK: From– yes. When they were in Turkey, living in Turkey. 6:51 JK: So, what, when in the community? I do not know if they told you this or not but they– did they have to learn Turkey as well as Armenian? Like what was– do you remember– 7:01 AK: No, I do not know. No, that I do not know I think they just picked it up and from what I understand, that they might have purposely spoke Turkish so that–to disguise themselves from, from being Armenian. But most, most Armenians at that time did, did speak, um, Turkish. 7:25 JK: Oh, okay. Very cool. Do– when you were living– growing up in the household did, uh, did your parents speak Turkish so sometimes you could not understand what they were saying? 7:34 AK: I did not understand. So, if they did not want me to know what they were saying, they would speak in, in Turkish. 7:41 JK: Yeah? And growing up did you have any siblings? Um– 7:45 AK: Yes, I have two sisters and a brother. 7:48 JK: Can you, uh, name them and put their relation as to you within age. So like, who’s older and– 7:55 AK: Oh all right, then I’ll start with the oldest. My sister, Phyllis, then my second sister, Beverley, then me, Adrian, and then my brother, Clive. 8:06 JK: And so, all of you guys learned Armenian growing up as a small child? 8:11 AK: Learning only– just to understand just to understand Armenian. Um, we never spoke it even though they did, they spoke amongst themselves and or with family member that may or visitors that were Armenian that would come to the house and they would speak. But we do not– we picked it up. I think that I spoke more because when I was going to college, I, uh, instead of living in school, I lived in with an Armenian woman and she did not know very much English but she knew Armenian so that was I said to her I said “I will teach you English and you will teach me Armenian” and that is about– 8:59 JK: Wow that must have been nice. 9:01 AK: It was, it was nice. 9:03 JK: Um, so do you– when you were younger did you attend Armenian language school or bible school? 9:07 AK: No, no language school at all. 9:10 JK: Growing up in your area as a child, I know you said you went to protestant church– Baptist church. Was there an Armenian Church near your area? 9:19 AK: No, the nearest one, as I said, was in Watertown, Massachusetts which was probably at that time maybe, uh, two hours to get there, you know because, of the, the highway and was not built then– 9:33 JK: Yeah, um, did– was there any people in your community that were Armenian as well or was it just you that was– 9:40 AK: No, it was mostly, it was mostly my father’s relatives, uh, his brothers and sisters and or there were friends in the next town over and they, they used to talk Armenian with them and play backgammon and, and that is how I learned the numbers because they would say the numbers in Turkish, so that is how– that is my only knowledge of, um, the numbers in Turkish. 10:14 JK: Wow! That is crazy. Um, so, in the household when you–when your parents were talking to you, they spoke Armenian, and you just? 10:21 AK: Not all the time. It was English, it was primarily English and, um, yeah. 10:28 JK: So, um, when you were growing up, there was not a lot of Armenian community around you except with your family, and so how did you keep the Armenian culture in your life strong? [phone rings] 10:43 JK: We can stop. [pause in audio] 10:45 JK: Okay so, um, so how did you keep the Armenian, uh, Armenian culture in your life strong like with the food and, um, because I know you go to church regularly and still have that Armenian culture in your life. 11:06 AK: Well once in a while, my mother would take, take me, I do not know about my sisters, but my mother would take me once in a while I remember we used to– we would go to the service but it was so strange to me because I did not understand anything and, um, and so as far as the culture, all I knew growing up was that my mother and father– if there were Armenian friends they entertained a great deal and it would be there were distance cousins from Providence, Rhode Island, but they were all very, very Americanized. That is the only thing I can say so it was not like oh we must speak Armenian and we must, you know, um, learn to speak Armenian and this and that and it was– I just did not think very much about the Armenian culture, only the food and my mother and father entertained and I would listen to them speak, you know, Armenian to them to the friends and that was that was about it. 12:20 JK: So, growing up, did you think that you because more Americanized because of your father, he lived here longer and– 12:26 AK: Oh, I definitely felt, you know, Americanized and, you know, at one time at some– one point if, um, my father’s family if they spoke Armenian in public they were embarrassed. So, um, and I really did not, you know, I, I did not learn to speak so I just did not– I just thought nothing of it because I had a wonderful childhood and I loved being on the farm and you know being Armenian was, was and I did not have to marry an Armenian, you know, like there are some families that feel that, you know, have to marry an Armenian. My father was not like that and he said he just wanted me to marry someone who was not lazy and, and that was about it so it– that was not– it was in the background, if you will, as far as growing up. 13:26 JK: So, um, going back to marrying an Armenian, so, you did not feel pressurized to marry someone who was Armenian? 13:33 AK: No. 13:34 JK: Okay. 13:35 AK: Although, um, when I was in college, I met, I met two girlfriends that were Armenian and that is when we started to go to the Armenian dances and we would go everywhere together and that is and then that is how I learned the, the steps because there was a group of us, boys and girls, and so it was really very nice because when I went to when I went to college, Boston University, I lived with a woman. This was while I was in college. I lived with this other woman when I was working, um, and I and I lived right in Watertown so– which is the heart of Armenians, and I– it is like little Armenian and so that is when I met people my age and that is what started me in going to the dances and I enjoyed going to the dances and it was my only way of meeting anyone because to meet a non-Armenian, you would have to go be the introduced to someone or go to a bar or pickup type thing. But at least that is one thing I, I was thankful for that with the Armenian, they had dances and, of course, thanksgiving we would go right into Boston to the big dances and, and, um, Christmas eve or New Years’ eve that is when they would have them it was wonderful. 15:06 JK: Yeah, so, um, going back to when you were in like growing up with your like family, did you guys ever have any picnics that you would attend, or like Armenian Christmas? 15:19 AK: Uh, no. 15:19 JK: No? Because I know– 15:20 AK: No, only, only when I was beginning to get in the social when I was socializing with Armenians and I had girlfriends that is when– if we, you know, heard there was going to be an Armenian picnic we would go. But my parents did not go, no. 15:36 JK: So, when you got into college, it was kind of like a rekindle of the culture– 15:42 AK: Yes. 15:42 JK: –So that is nice. Um, did you enjoy, like, meeting new Armenians or Armenian people that you have not really met when you were growing up, like, being introduced to the culture that you have not really like– 15:55 AK: Well it was not. You mean to all̶ being introduced to older Armenians? 15:59 JK: Or like other Armenians because you were saying growing up, you did not really have that much connection– 16:03 AK: No, all I had– wait, [indistinct] you know all I had was, uh, my girlfriends from my public schooling in, in the town that I, that I went to. I mean it was such a small rural town and, um, but in relation to when started to go to college and then started to meet Armenian boys and girls my age, you know, we, we went everywhere and then, of course, my sister also came with me, my little sister, she would come with me because my oldest sister was away, uh, going to music school and–and becoming a musician. So it was my middle sister and I who really, um, went to Armenian functions and I would say that she, um, also tried to meet, you know, Armenian boys and she met Armenian boys and my brother did not mingle in the, um, socially, growing up with Armenians. So it– you might say it was me. 17:11 JK: That is, that is interesting. Um, when you guys were growing up, did– when you like had friends over or something like that, did they, did your household have any, like, Armenian, um, decorations or anything like that, that like really stood out to you at the time? 17:27 AK: Decorations? 17:28 JK: Or like because I know there a lot of craftsmanship like a lot of people have sewn things or like things that or pictures or photographs that just– 17:39 AK: Of Armenian? 17:39 JK: Yeah. 17:40 AK: No. 17:40 JK: No? 17:41 AK: No. 17:42 JK: So did– when you were growing up, you know, how like people would say oh I am from here or I am from here did it, did you, when you were talking about Armenia if you ever did, did people know about it or knew where you came from? 17:56 AK: Uh, non-Armenians I would not say anything about me being Armenian, you know, and, you know, unless they asked, uh, and I did not know that much background either, um, about it and of course I did not know about the division and, um, and my mother, you see my mother and father were not victims of the genocide because they fled before, you know, and they were like my husband’s family, they were, they were direct victims you know of the genocide and so they talk about it a lot, so it is very hard for me to feel the anger because, uh, or of course born here in United States and my parents being very Americanized, um, there was–there was not that same feeling and, of course, you know when we celebrate April twenty fourth we–I celebrated, of course, but I– it is not like I had any serious feeling because my mother and father were not victims of the genocide. 19:06 JK: Yeah. They fled right before. Interesting. Um, so, uh, when you were growing up, uh, did you move around a lot after college, or– 19:20 AK: No. 19:20 JK: No? You stayed in the area? 19:22 AK: Well I got a job, uh, working in, um Boston and so rather than commuting from home because it was long distance, I stayed with this Armenian woman in Arlington, Massachusetts and that is when I began to, you know, speak a little bit more Armenian with her. 19:43 JK: Okay. And, um, you gra–you said you graduated from Boston University– 19:47 AK: Boston University. 19:47 JK: And what was your degree in? 19:50 AK: It was in Psychology and I minored in Sociology. 19:54 JK: Oh wow, very interesting, very good. Um, and, uh, when you were going back to your childhood, did you in your family celebrate Armenian Christmas at all or like normal– 20:06 AK: Uh, I do not remember. 20:07 JK: You do not remember? 20:08 AK: No, the big Christmas was December 25th. 20:11 JK: Okay, and as you grew up, did you start developing more of those Armenian traditions into your household? Like once you got married and – 20:20 AK: Once I got married, yeah. 20:22 JK: And, um, what, how old were you when you got married? 20:26 AK: Twenty-two. 20:28 JK: And is your husband Armenian? 20:30 AK: Yes. 20:31 JK: And how did you guys meet? 20:33 AK: At an Armenian dance in Massachusetts. 20:35 JK: Oh wow! 20:35 AK: [laughs] 20:38 JK: Um, that is really nice. Um, so after you guys met and everything, moved to where you are now– 20:46 AK: Well he was still in training at– physician, so when we got married we moved to Brooklyn, New York because he was doing his internship. 20:53 JK: Oh wow. 20:54 AK: And then after the internship, we spent, um, five years in Jersey City when he did his surgical residency and then he wanted to do an extra year in, uh, vascular surgery so we stayed there in, um, for five years. 21:13 JK: Okay. 21:14 AK: And, um, it is interesting because when he told me that, you know, he grew, he grew up in the Baptist church because there was no Armenian Church services here, maybe once or twice a year, but his mother was determined that, you know, he gets some religious, you know, um teachings, so I thought oh well this is going to work out fine, we can get married in the Baptist church. But no way were we going to get married in the Baptists church so I had to become baptized in the Armenian Church which was, at that time, in Cambri– not Cambridge, it was outside of Boston, Shawmut Avenue, uh, they were building a new church and it was supposed to be ready when we got married but it was not so, uh, anyway I, on my lunch hour because I worked at the Jordan Marsh, on my lunch hour, I went there and the priest there, um, baptized me, you know, he–with the oil and all of that. And I liked that service it was very meaningful to me and so because, otherwise I would not be able to get married I guess in the Armenian Church but I, I do not know, but anyway, um, so that was that. 22:34 JK: Wow, and then so after that you did get married in an Armenian Church– 22:38 AK: We got married in the Armenian Church, yes, and, of course, our children were all baptized in the Armenian Church but by then, you see, uh, I liked the service of the baptism it is very, very meaningful to me and, and I understand it and it was, it was nice. 22:55 JK: And what made you want to get more involved in the church and the culture of Armenians? 23:01 AK: Well the, uh, the– well first of all, some man from this church here approached me and asked me if I would like to teach Sunday school and, uh, at that time, of course, you know I had missed going to the protestant church because I had missed the sermon– the message. I, I need a message to guide me, if you will, through the, through the week. And, of course, in those days, the Armenian priest really did not give, you know, real messages like the protestant priest ministers do. So, um, I was– when we moved up here, I was going to the congregational church, um, and because there was a profound minister there that I– you know, I came home one Sunday and I said to my husband, you’ve got to come and here him. But anyway, um, they had so many different departments, the had adult bible, they had children’s they had teenage, they had this, so when this man asked me to teach Sunday school, I said how could I say no to a church who has so little, whereas the congregational church had so much. And so, but I did not have any books! So, I went to Davis college bookstore to get some basic things and then whatever I had could get from the dioses and that was, um, that is how it all started. 24:34 JK: Oh wow. So, did you enjoy teaching Sunday school? 24:38 AK: Yes, I did, because it also helped me to learn a little bit about, um, you know, the church and its teachings and, um, then of course I got into the music end because I, I love organ, I love music and, um, and Father Daniel Findikyan at that time was the organist but he was going to be going off so I took lessons on how to quickly learn the music because the, the service is practically all music and so I, I took lessons and, and learned and even though, even though I did not understand a lot of the words, I did not have to. To me, the music was so beautiful and it was a way for me to worship and, um, I, I just, uh, did not, uh, I did not have to know the meaning– you could kind of guess anyway. You do not have to know in order to feel it here in your heart and, um, and so then, of course, I got involved with the central counsel and I went to the dioses for meetings and, um, and I never realized how dedicated these women were for the love of their church. So, uh, it was very interesting because they were talking about, uh, doing the service in English and cutting it short. And I remember going to the archbishop and I was saying, you want to use me as an example you can because I knew nothing about the service, I did not understand it, it was boring and, uh, so I am a– you might say that I am a non-Armenian, you know, spouse coming to the church and I said you cannot–you cannot cut something off and that priests are now doing some things in English which are fine but, um, anyway, it is very interesting. But the most wonderful thing I think is that my mother was able to see because when she was elderly and living here with me, she would come to church and she would sit right in the front pew and she would– she knew all the songs and so she would sing while I am playing. And so, it was nice that she saw that. 27:11 JK: And so, she really enjoyed it I am assuming. 27:13 AK: Oh, yes. Yeah, she really did, she, she enjoys [coughs] excuse me– she enjoyed singing the songs. She knew, she knew it all but she felt that, you know, in those days you went with the religion of your husband. You know, uh, and so– I– you know, before you know when we first got married, of course, whenever he had a Sunday off or was not on call, we would go to the Armenian Church. But I missed the protestant church because that is what I was brought up, you know, in that and um but anyway, um– 27:54 JK: And so, you still played the organ today in church? 27:57 AK: I still play the organ and go to the service, yes. 28:00 JK: Oh wow, and, um, what, when did this start? Like when you started teaching Sunday school, did you have kids during this, or–? 28:08 AK: Yes, I did. Oh, it was about eighteen years but I cannot, uh, I must’ve had, I must’ve had all my children by then. So, it had to be probably in the seventies, I would say, in the seventies when we–because there was once we came back here and he started his practice, we– he got drafted and we went to Viet– to Atlanta, Georgia for, um ,two years. That was during the Vietnam War and, of course, there was a possibility that he could go over but he did not get– it is all about the numbers I guess I am not sure. So, for two years we were down there and, um, I had just had two of my children then, Talene and Anise at that point and so, um, then we came back. So yeah, I, I would have to say late seventies–maybe in the eighties, late eighties. Might have been summer but I cannot remember. 29:15 JK: Oh, that is okay. Um, when you were moving around, like, to Brooklyn and to Jersey City you said and to Atlanta, did there– was there Armenian like did you have an Armenian community there or– 29:26 AK: Well not right around us but we would go to church service whenever he was free if he was not on call. 29:32 JK: Okay. 29:32 AK: You know, because he was doing his residency and so, um, he would say that he’s not on call or we would go to the Union City Church when we were in, um, Brooklyn and in Jersey City. And sometimes we went to the Bayside Church but it was mostly the Union City Church and, um, but when we went to visit my mother, you know, when we went to Massachusetts we did not, we did not go to church, you know– 30:05 JK: So, like that part was not very, uh, alive with Armenian culture like where you were growing. She stayed where you guys were growing up, right, when you were little? 30:14 AK: Right, right. 30:16 JK: So, that is interesting. Um, so by the tie you got to Binghamton you really felt like there was a great definitely an Armenian culture and you really felt, I guess, in your place? Did you feel like oh wow this is wonderful like the Armenian culture– 30:32 AK: Well, I remember when there was the first time there was church service after we were married because I never– we– I never came to Binghamton until after we were married and so, um, when they, when they had a– their church dances if we were in New Jersey we would come up for the weekend and we would go to the dance and I remember, um, being pregnant with [indistinct]. Anyway [laughs]. Um, so, um, so–and then I and then I met a–people in the church–the Armenian people in the church and, you know, and that was it. 31:14 JK: And do you think that the Armenian Church is like a sense of connection with the Armenian culture or do you not–or do you not think that you need the Armenian Church to have like the Armenian background and culture? 31:27 AK: Well it all depends on where you are living. In this case; up here, you do need the church. Yes, if there was no church, um, and–and they were a lot–this–a lot of Armenians who, um, um, do not come to the church their parents may have both been Armenians but then the children may have married once spouse was not Armenian and they usually went with the um 31:56 Unknown: [indistinct] Hi Jackie. 31:57 JK: Hi. 31:57 AK: They usually went to the, um the church of their spouse, in other words if she, if the wife was not Armenian the husband would go to her church. In other words, they were not that dedicated and in wanting to have their children come to the Armenian Church when there was service. Uh, it was not like that, with my husband’s family. It was–it was important and–and, um, because they again they were direct victims of it and, and they all knew how to speak Armenian and not so much write, but some– one of them knows how to read and write. 32:42 JK: Did you–does your husband know how to speak and write Armenian or just–? 32:47 AK: Nor write, but speak. He–he–he–we did take a course when we were living in Brooklyn; we took a course at Columbia. There was an Armenian professor. 33:00 JK: Oh really? Wow. 33:00 AK: Yeah, and so, um, after work, I would stay in New York and then he would come from Jersey City and we would take this course and–because I was not that interested. He was because he was exposed to that importance when he was growing up, versus my parents, even though they were Armenian they did not think it was important to just, you know, got to speak Armenian, got to read, got to this–you know. It depends on where one is living at the time and, of course, you know, my husband said that our girls had to marry Armenians and I said, well, in this area. I said I do not know how you can expect that so I made a point of having them go to summer camp, Saint Nersess, uh, and, and they enjoyed it and they met their friends there and that is what prompted them to go to social functions. They, they– you had to do that otherwise there was no opportunity here to, you know, meet an Armenian boy. 34:10 JK: Yeah, so you took them, growing up you took them–y our children to summer camp? 34:13 AK: Yeah, when they were in like junior high, high school. Maybe ninth or eight grade, ninth grade. 34:20 JK: And do you remember when they were growing up, did they have a lot of Armenian friends that they were, that were their age? 34:26 AK: Not here in the community. 34:27 JK: Not in the area? 34:28 AK: No. There was not. 34:30 JK: Wow! So, the only really exposure was the church and then the summer camps. 34:36 AK: Uh-huh. But it–and at the church that one time there was a youth group and, um, only one or two of my, my children fit in with their age. And, so, the mothers of those aged children took on being, you know, being in charge of youth group and for a little while, we, you know, did drive them to like, say, Watertown if there was an ACYOA function going on and–and they went to Armenian functions, uh, social functions dances, um, when they were in college but, um, let me see, especially one, the youngest. My youngest, she met–she met friends and even though she was in Buffalo where there was no Armenian community, the friends would call and they would say come on down and I said you go–you go so they did want to meet Armenians if they could. But if they did not that was not going to stop them from, you know, marrying someone who was a, a decent good boy, you know? 35:48 JK: Yeah, exactly. So, um, going back to when you were married, what was your husband’s profession? 36:00 AK: Well he was studying to become a doctor, a physician. 36:03 JK: Okay, and, um, did you– could you please name your children and their age in relevance to each other? 36:13 AK: Say that again. 36:14 JK: Name your children. 36:15 AK: You want me to name my children? 36:16 JK: Yeah. 36:17 AK: Okay. Uh, Talene, um, Anise, Carnie, Alicia and Lori. And my husband wanted them to have Armenian names, okay? So, of course, me and, you know, um if it was going to be a long Armenian name I said, uh, I am going away [laughs]. And so of course the priest in Union City church at that time said well I have a niece named Talene so we said oh alright I like that. So, then I would give them an American middle name so my mother’s Virginia is Talene Virginia. And you see that was another thing with my mother, all of our names are not Armenian names at all. I mean, they are English, my brother Clive that is not an Armenian name. But my mother was very cosmopolitan type of person even though she knew how to read and write it was it was interesting. They and then from Bulgaria they moved to Paris and, and lived and she lived I think I am jumping around– 37:30 JK: Oh, go ahead, no! 37:31 AK: Oh, anyway it was just her and her mother because again her father died of natural causes and her brother died of–in an accident so it– she used to go to this factory and sew these very fine, fine sequins on, uh, royalty gowns. 37:54 JK: Oh wow. 37:55 AK: And she would pass by the ca–the Notre Dame Cathedral. And she would always go in there and light a candle. So, um, anyway. What were we saying? [laughs] Oh, uh, the names! And then of course, um, Anise is a really–Ani but I said well that is too short, Ani, no that is too short so I added “S-E” on it and her middle name is Anne. And then, um, Carnie is really, well her godparents their daughter’s name was Carnie so I said if I need to–if I need to use that name, if I am having trouble and they said, of course. But Carnie is really after a town–not or a town I guess–Garnie see, Gar-nie is really what it is. But, he, he made it Carnie so she’s Carnie Noelle because she was in December baby. So I got my American name in there, you know, and then, of course, Loring–my–Loring is–means quail and that is [phone rings] that is an Armenian name. 39:07 JK: Yeah. 39:10 AK: Do not forget your, do not forget your– (End of Recording 1) 39:19 JK: So, this is a continuation of Adrian Kachadourian’s interview, part two. This is Jackie Kachadourian and I am interviewing with the Binghamton University Armenian Oral History project and today is March 13th, uh, 2017. So, um, what does it mean for you to be an Armenian here in–living in America today? 39:48 AK: Well I always feel that, um, to be a good American I would, um, want to show what a good Armenian I am. Uh, and I have always said this in–in speeches that I have made, that to be a good American you should be a good Armenian in the sense of you know, um, be for your citizen uh to support your culture and to be proud that you’re Armenian and share it and–and rather than, you know, not being proud that you’re an Armenian. 40:32 JK: And do you consider yourself–what do you consider yourself to be? Like a American or Armenian-American, or Armenian or– 40:41 AK: I consider myself an American-Armenian because I was born in this country. 40:47 JK: Okay, and, um, do you think that you can remain Armenian without the Armenian language? 40:53 AK: Yes. 40:54 JK: Or the church or the homeland? 40:56 AK: Yes. 40:57 JK: And now why is that? 40:59 AK: Well because, I would, um, continue with, um, the, uh, my culture in my home and, um, and expose what it is to be an Armenian to my grandchildren, uh, you know, the food, the language, well, I even try to you know teach some, some words in Armenian. They know certain words and, um, and that is that. It would be more difficult, I think, for my grandchildren because now we are, we are now all we are in our elder years, but for them if there was not a church, uh, it would be harder, uh, for them to perpetuate. Especially up here in this community because it is, um, all–spouses are not all Armenian, you know, and so it, it, it could be more difficult unless grandparents, uh, pursue the idea of showing and teaching their grandchildren. 42:13 JK: Now, um, have you travelled to other places in the United States that are– have a bigger Armenian population in their community but do not necessarily have the church as their kind of connection? Or have you seen anything– 42:28 AK: No, I have. Yes, I have. When I was, um, involved with Women’s Guild central council which is sort of like the national, um, um, organization that oversees all the Women’s Guilds and when I was chairman, I did go to, um, different states, you know. And, uh, and I realized how strong the, um, the women were in relation to love of their church and, um, and how it– they, they were very active. But because they also had the, um, population, you know, uh, certain cities like Watertown, Massachusetts and Jersey and New York, well not so much New York, but New Jersey so, um, there is a bond. They all, you know, do things, uh, for their, uh, for their church but it is more the older women because the younger mothers are working, see so it is a different, different thing now. It is the mothers, the women, the grandmothers who are in the kitchen, you know. But, uh, anyway, yes it, it does. 43:45 JK: And so, do you think without the church here in Binghamton, uh, we would have a less, lesser bond in the Armenian culture and– 43:54 AK: Yes. I do because of, um, first of all, uh, a lot of the Armenians that came here to this church, uh, when we did not have a church and maybe they had services twice a year, uh, and if their spouses were not if one spouse was not Armenian they would go to Protestant Church or Catholic Church. Uh, depending on what uh the spouse’s religion was, and they do not have that sense of, um, well, you know, for Armenian Christmas I should come to the Armenian Church they do not have that feeling too much of the children now, the mothers have and, and grandmothers they’ve all gone. But now the mothers, uh, of the children and there is a lot of Armenians here but they–they are not interested they have not been brought up in the church I guess, maybe, I do not know the reason, uh, that, uh, they do not come. And I have I have said to some of the women, um, I said, you know, I said maybe for these feast days you might– our Women’s Guild is having the dinner, the Armenian dinner maybe you could come after your church service, but they do not have that strong feeling. 45:19 JK: Yeah. I see that too. Um, so you said you were part of the Women’s Guild with the church, can you explain some of the things that, uh, you as a group do? 45:28 AK: The idea of the Women’s Guild is to help, um, uh, support, uh, functions, uh, in the church and, um, we, uh, if the Parish Council wants us to do something, we will do it. We, we have fundraisers, well, primarily the dinners, the Armenian Christmas Dinner the Lentin Dinner, um, and, uh, and we, uh, we pay for, for example we pay for the flowers on the altar, the Women’s Guild takes care of that. We take care of the gifts for the children at Christmas time and, uh, and Easter the flowers, uh, and if, if they need help, you know, if the Parish Council needs help. But it is very interesting because at one time, not so much now, but at one time the Women’s Guild was really involved in every aspect of the church. There were some that sang in the choir, there were some that were on Parish Council, uh, and so they really were and, um, I have said in my speeches to other, um, churches I said the, um, Women’s Guild is not like the gardening club or, um, or the, um, oh what’s that organization, Junior League. I said you join those because you want to get something out of it, but in relation to the Women’s Guild, it is what you put into it and, um, because it is a church, you know, organization and, of course, some Women’s Guilds say they, you know, so large they’ve got hundreds of members. We only have nine but, uh, nonetheless, if we need them to make a dish or they put on a coffee hour, for our purposes its, its fine. 47:26 JK: Yeah. And when did you start coming–working with the Armenian, uh, Women’s Guild with the Armenian Church here in Binghamton? 47:35 AK: Uh– 47:35 JK: Do you remember? 47:36 AK: Well, when I was married and we finally came here after my husband’s training and he started to practice, um, that is when I began to get, uh, involved but not that much because my children were little. But, you know, if they needed help, and then one gentleman from the church asked me if I would like to teach Sunday school and, of course, I knew nothing about, uh, um, teaching Sunday School in relation to teaching them the Armenian religion. Okay, so and at that time, they did not have a good curriculum at the Diocese that I could tap so that is how I really learned by teaching them. And I, I just went to the, um, Davis College, they have a wonderful religious store so, um, I got material from there and, um, I picked up some material from the Diocese, they would put out a letter or whatever and, uh, I would, uh, teach them that way and I taught for eighteen years. 48:46 JK: Oh, wow that is amazing. 48:48 AK: Right, and then, of course, with the organ, because being musically inclined, and I’ve always loved the organ, that when father Daniel, you know, left because he was the organist. [mutters indistinctly] Is that alright? Yeah, okay. When he left, I sl– I kind of slipped in there, like the back door and I took lessons on how to play this music right away because the following week, or whenever, there was the service next, I said oh I am how am I going to play this? Because our service is continual music. And so, I went to an organ teacher and she helped me to quickly learn the right hand and the left hand quickly and, uh, as I you know played more I, uh, I was able to do it. But that was another problem because every priest that came, if–we did not have a full-time priest, every priest that came, his idea of what I should do was different from the next priest! 49:53 JK: Oh yeah. 49:53 AK: So, there was not coordination there, of course, now there is and I thought mm what is he talking about? I did not learn this, you know! [laughs] and, um, uh, so–so that was that, but you know I grew up in the Protestant Church so all of this was very, very strange to me and even today when I am playing, I do not know the words to all the music. But it is so beautiful I do not have to know the words. 50:23 JK: Yeah, you can feel it. 50:23 AK: Yes, exactly. 50:25 JK: And did you play the organ all your life and then you just– 50:28 AK: No. 50:28 JK: Oh no, so you started learning during the time you were going to the church or–? 50:32 AK: Well, we were–we were musically involved because I play the harp, see, and I learned to play the piano from the harp. And, um, I even when I took lessons from the teacher, she would come to the church and she told me about all the keys you know as far as I am concerned, if I am going to do this, I want to do it right. And, uh, so you know she told me, um, how to do this and, um, but I, I, I love music I belong to the organ theatre, uh, society here and, um, so that was not difficult. But the reason I accepted being a teacher even though I did not know anything about the Armenian religion, really, was because I used to go to the Congregational Church and, um, and I, I joined the adult bible group and they were all senior citizens and at that time I was expecting my second child. And here I am, very pregnant and all of these grandparents in the class but it was the class that I liked and so when he asked me I could not say no because here this big church with all of several bible classes that you could pick from and this organization and that, uh, organization and the women’s group. I felt very guilty so that is why I said yes to this little church, um, even though I did not know what I was doing but, uh, I– my roots were because of the protestant church and that is how it, you know, that is how it began. 52:18 JK: And do you think, uh, this– let’s go back to like the size of the church. Do you think it is still the same like now than it was before, because you were mentioning it is small, uh, compared to– 52:30 AK: Well, we used to have a youth group and, um, what’s happened now is that, uh, our, our community is getting old and but what something is more beautiful is that we have all these little children. So, we have all these little children and all these grandparents and great-grandparents, uh, that are in the church. So, these children are going to be the future of that church if they do not move out, you know, sometimes we will get students from SUNY [State University of New York] and that is nice but there is no, there are not any teenagers, so we do not have a youth group. We did have a very active youth group and, of course, these, uh, children, uh, they did not stay here with the exception of one or two families. They, they left and got married and, you know, and, you know, we have often, we have often thought of, um, tapping the alumni of this church if you will uh to um well we, we were going to have something– I guess on the anniversary of our church. We kind of asked them if they would like to give you know, uh, something for their church because that is where they grew up and um and uh so that is um that is what it is. And, um, you know, ultimately, um, I do not think we will ever have a full-time priest again because it really is not, it really is not necessary now. And, of course, we have two wonderful priests twice a month and, uh, so and they are very dedicated. If you need them for anything, even though they are travelling, um, they will, they, they help and of course the ̶ of Father, Father Arshen, she will teach the children, the older children so now they are kind of looking for maybe someone who might teach the younger ones because it is too much of a, a, a, a gap, yes. So, um, so right now, uh, and it is wonderful just, you know, just to see that. But our church, our little church has ordained let me see, one, two, maybe three priests, you know, uh, and of course one of them grew up here. And so again, our little church is like a mustard seed but we do manage to perpetuate, if you will, and, um, and that is it. 55:14 JK: Do you see it, uh, growing in the future at all, like with the youth group coming back or no? 55:21 AK: The youth group that left? 55:22 JK: Or that– like disappeared because the generation kept– got older do you see like the church coming back with like Sunday school or like bigger populations or staying stagnant? 55:35 AK: I, I, I do not see it, of course, with these children, uh, and–we have–you have to look at the parents of the children, uh, uh, are they going to stay here and grow old here, uh, which probably most likely they will. Um, so I, I do not know if it will. I, I think it will be perpetuated but I do not think it is going to be something that will be like it was a long time ago unless we have a big influx of people but, uh, I do not see that. I, I may be wrong but I do not see that. 56:15 JK: Yeah. Um, there is also a lot of, or a few, Binghamton University students that come in here and then– here and now, like, to the church services. And do you see that as a as a good influence? Do you see a lot of Binghamton University students come, or is it like once in a while, a few of them? 56:35 AK: Uh, once in a while. Now, there was one that came, uh, and, um, he knew Father Daniel and he also knows the service, he has had served on the altar, uh, and he can also play the organ. So, I thought, hmm, this is good, uh, when I cannot play and, um, but then he–he got transferred to Michigan. Because I asked Father Daniel about him I said, you know, I have not seen Arthur, where, you know, and he said well he got transferred. So, students coming, uh, they– you know, it depends I guess where they come from. If they come from, um, a big church like, um, uh, in Queens, Holy Martyrs for example, um maybe they do not want to come to church because they moved away from home and–and then they go home for, for the holidays. So, um, but we did have a, a se– a couple from Armenia and, uh, and they were wonderful. They– that is came and they would help if we needed help and then they went back and, of course, we were sad. And one family, and he had children, they di– the children did not want to go back, they wanted to stay but, you know, but, uh, I do not know, they, they went back so. 58:02 JK: Very interesting. Um how do you think your children define being Armenian compared to yourself? Um, do you think there is a difference or its– 58:12 AK: No there is not a difference, uh, because I was, um, I was very Americanized okay see so, um, and, uh, the fact of the genocide and all of that is not as– I mean I do not even, uh, they know about the genocide but we do not talk about it on a regular basis. My mother never told me the differences between a Tashnag and a, um, a Ramgavar and this thing and that thing. She knew all of that but she, she did not and I think it is because she married into a family that was very Americanized and Protestant and she just put all of that on the back shelf, if you will. It is like she gave it up. Um, and, uh, but my husband’s family, uh, they are direct victims and, of course, they talked all the time about the genocide and about his parents and how they fled and so it is more meaningful you know to them. And, of course, they, um, learned Armenian, uh, they spoke ar– they were, they were–spoke to them in Armenian and expected them to respond in Armenian so it really, uh, I was like an outsider when I first went to, to the service I did not understand it, it was– So, I think my children are also the same way. But they, they like going to church. My youngest daughter is trying to get her baby, you know, baptized and, um, but that is important to her but, you know, as far as her when she was in Connecticut living, there is a wonderful Armenian Church there I knew the priest, I said go to church on Sunday, go to church and she did, see. But it is, it is oh, well, it is, you know, it is not that different, it is a different generation. 1:00:16 JK: Yeah, and how do you see it with your grandchildren, do you think they are going to have– 1:00:21 AK: They will be exposed to the church, uh, as far as, um, speaking Armenian in the home, not, uh, and, uh, but they will also–as they grow up will be exposed to opportunities. That is one thing about the, uh, Armenian culture the–the social aspect is wonderful and I am thankful because being up here not having a large social– I was going to make sure that they went to Saint Nersess camp because that is where they met their friends. You see, and even though they were not near each other, when they went off to college, the friends would call and they would say, you know, this weekend why do not you come down from Buffalo? And so, I would encourage that, I would say you study Monday through Friday, you take a couple days off and you go, and this is how they met Armenian friends because being girls, you are not going to go to a dance by yourself. So that is why it, it, it that is one thing I will have to say. Now do the Irish have anything like this? Probably the Greeks do, but do the Italians have anything so that you can meet an Italian? But, um, this–this was this was how I got involved by meeting some Armenians when I went to college. 1:01:48 JK: Now why do you think the Armenian heritage is like that here in America compared to like other uh ethnicities like you were saying Italian or um Irish or other uh ethnicities do not really do this. Why do you think the Armenians have a tendency to stay together? 1:02:07 AK: Well the Armenians love to socialize amongst themselves and, um, they fight a lot you know they are very, thing, but when it comes to food and the culture and the socialization, it really is ̶ they, they enjoy that. Yeah and, and the service is really very beautiful and, um, going to the cathedral, it is just–it is just wonderful. 1:02:38 JK: Yes, of course. So, um, what would define you as an individual, what makes you most Armenian? What did–what would you say for yourself? 1:02:51 AK: That is a good question. Um, I would– uh, it is a good question. I’ll have to think about that. 1:03:02 JK: Of course, do you want me to go to another question? 1:03:04 AK: Yeah, okay. 1:03:05 JK: Okay, um, so let us see, uh do you think uh the dis–hav–being a diaspora has affected you or your Armenian identity or like living here in America compared to like let’s say living in Armenia, being connected with the homeland compared to– 1:03:29 AK: I do not really have, no. I do not really have any, uh, I do not even care to go to see Armenia to visit Armenia. Um, first of all, because I do not like to fly, but I have never been, uh, one of my daughters went and, um, uh, they–they do not have that desire to go to the homeland and I think it is because in the small community like this when you are immersed with non-Armenians, um, uh, I, I do not know. They are not, uh, they are not ashamed that their Armenians. In fact, when I, um, when I am talking to someone or if I am speaking to someone that has an accent I will ask them, oh, what nationality are you and then they, they would tell me and I would say well I am Armenian. And uh I said you know if they look kind of puzzled because they do not know what it is, I will say it is like the Greeks and, um, but that is, you know, I would not go to times square, you know, when they have that big, uh, celebration of the genocide, you know, in times square it is a big to do. Uh, eh, I, I do not care to go there and say, you know, here I am Armenian, that type of thing and of course I know that some Armenians will say oh vote for this man who is running for president because he’s for the Armenians, that does not bother me. That does not faze me as being patriotic in that sense, no it is just that I am Armenian and if the opportunity arises, that I would say well I am Armenian that is what I would do. I would not hide it but, you know, if somebody looks at my name they will say oh that is an interesting name I said well it is Armenian and I-A-N means the son of and the word Kach is cross and they say “Oh that is nice!” You know, so, um, but there are some people who do not know it at all and I remember when we went to, uh, when we were going into the army in Georgia–Atlanta, Georgia now this was in (19)67, okay? Or (19)76, okay? And so, uh, she was asking me about the name. We were definitely in a southern store and she was asking me about the name and I said, uh, I said oh well it is Armenian and she said “what is that?” And so, I tried to explain, you know, and she–never heard of it. She was a southerner and so, uh, she asked where we were from and I said “New York,” she says “Well.” She says “We love all you Yankees.” So, right then and there I could tell the, the south, the Deep South, uh, how they are, you know, it was interesting. I never–what is that? But that was, you know, in the (19)70s so. 1:06:35 JK: It is crazy. Um, so, how do you think, uh, your children, uh, will be defined as being Armenian? How do you think they will do, they do, they consider themselves more American than Armenian, in that sense, or– 1:06:52 AK: Well, um, I think they are proud that they are Armenian. They like the food, they love the food and the dance, the music. 1:07:02 JK: Yes. 1:07:02 AK: Um, and of course they bring, they bring their children to the Armenian Church and, of course, one of the spouses is non-Armenian and, um, so that is, that is not a pri–it is important that they can have, um, them learn, you know, like the Lord’s Prayer in Armenian and some of the songs. And what’s interesting is towards the ends of the service two of my grandchildren, um, come right up and sit with me at the, at the organ; one on each side and so, uh, and I can hear them singing the songs so that is good. And, and, uh, they will, that will ultimately be their church it–it is their church they were christened in the Armenian Church. That to me is more important that they are, um, baptized in the Armenian Church because they can go to any church and, and they are members so, uh, of the Armenian Church and I, I think that is what important. Not, you know, being die-hard it is the Armenian Church and no other church type thing because that is not how we were brought up. My mother and father exposed us, you know, to, to the protestant church, of course, and a little bit of the Armenian Church but, of course, distance was a problem then, too. There was no Armenian Church in rural Massachusetts where I was living so and I used to get embarrassed if they talked Armenian in public, see? 1:08:36 JK: Oh yeah. 1:08:36 AK: So, um, but then when I got married and we came to New York, on the subway, I would talk in Armenian to my husband [laughs] and so and it was funny because we went to France one year to the to the, um, one of the islands. I cannot think of it now where all the French go. And In those days the French did not like the Americans so, instead of speaking English, I would speak Armenian so they would not think were from the United States. [laughs] 1:09:09 JK: That is so funny, that is so funny I like that. Um, so you said your husband’s side of your, the family was very Armenian– 1:09:19 AK: Yes. 1:09:19 JK: And did you see like when you were raising your children the differences uh in certain uh circumstances that would ha– to partake like for example if he would want something more Armenian more cultured, effect or would you be more Americanized and do something a different way, did you see that ever? 1:09:39 AK: I am not sure I, I understand, honey. 1:09:41 JK: So, like if, um, since he was grown up, uh, with more of Armenian uh background very, it sounds very strict like Armenian uh traditions. 1:09:54 AK: The, uh, the– a language. It was important that they spoke to them in Armenian. 1:10:00 JK: Okay. 1:10:01 AK: And, and answered in Armenian because, excuse me, when they were growing up, there was not a–they went to the Baptist church because my mother-in-law felt that, um, it, it, it was good, it was good that they went to the Baptist church. And he learned a lot of his bible verses which, you know, and, and was taught well. But one time, um, my husband said to his mother, you know, uh, these the kids are getting baptized in the Baptist church I want to get baptized in the Baptist church. And, of course, uh, she, she would not allow that. She said no, she said when there is church, uh, Armenian Church service you are going to go to the Armenian Church service and ultimately, he did get baptized but it was like he was a teenager. He did not understand, uh, because there was no service but, but that that strong Armenian feeling was instilled in them in the home even though they did not have church every Sunday, that was, you know, speak the language was very important to them. 1:11:11 JK: Very interesting. Um, so uh going back to the diaspora, what do you think uh are the differences between the Armenians of the diaspora and those who are live in the homeland? Do you see any, like, differences or things you’ve read about or– 1:11:28 AK: Well, uh, yeah. I do not think they have, uh, uh, the, the Armenians in this country. I do not think the, the second generation. Okay if the grand–parents and grandparents came from abroad and came here that is one thing but if the parents are born in this country, their children, um, I do not, I do not know it, it all depends on which community you go to. If there is a, a huge Armenian community with all sorts of things going on, ACYOA, ASA all of these things, they are going to, uh, perpetuate, you know, and some, some parents insist, insist, that their children marry Armenians. And I have seen I have seen in one case when I was in college this, uh, Greek boy, uh, was in love with this Armenian boy was in love with a Greek girl and the pain that the parents put them through because she was not Armenian, uh, I could not believe this. See this was totally, this was not what my parents would, would, uh, say or do, you know, they were not that way at all so um and–and they ultimately did get married but it, it put a strain, it was terrible. So, I do not know if the parents were from abroad or if they– some, some are even born here. Some priests are born here but they are very strict about certain things. You know, so, uh, its, it is hard, it is hard to say but I, I, you know, there are some parishes where the families are American born and more Americanized and so they–they want a priest that is more Americanized if, you know what I mean. JK: Oh, okay yes, that is interesting. Um, do you think the diaspora has its own identity here in America, or– 1:13:42 AK: Identity in what sense? 1:13:44 JK: Like their own, uh, Armenian tr–like they develop new Armenian traditions that are different than you would see in traditional Armenia back in, before the genocide or when, uh, families used to live there before they had to migrate here to the United States or other places. Do you see it as, uh, different traditions developing in the United States rather than Armenia? Or like food or culture or anything like that–? 1:14:18 AK: Hm, no, uh, I do not think so. But, again, I would not know what the traditions are in Armenia, not, you know, I mean not going there but I think from what I understand that, um, that the cathedral, uh, in Armenia I th– I do not think you can sit I think it is standing only. Uh, I am not sure but um I, I, I think that some habits of, of Armenians that have come here to this country, um, it is a different, it is a different type of, um, feeling. They have the feeling, they have the feeling no matter if there is a church or not, okay, and if they– when they came to church if there was a church in the community, it was not to worship. That is it, I do not see that they, that the, the worship part of the service is meaningful to them. I, I do not think they are religious in that sense and, uh, coming from abroad, I think the reason they found this church here was to come together to talk in the back, okay, to play cards or backgammon or whatever. It was, um, it was not important that they come real–the service was not that it, it was more like, um, there is a church we got to go to church, that is it. Whereas for me, it had to have a meaning and, of course, the meaning through the communion. Now, I know there is a lot of grandparents, older people that do not take communion because it is not something they feel here, you see. So that may be more of an American, you know, type thing. Um, but it, it is, it is, it is beautiful it really is to go up there and confess. But there are some people, even young people, in our church, uh, for whatever reason, they do not go up. It does not mean anything to them and I think the older generation that came from abroad, uh, there was a church that meant it– they could socialize that they are in a country where now–where they can speak Armenian to another friend. And my mother told me she said the word “odar” which means, um, a non-Armenian, in other words if, if I saw somebody, oh, they are odars. She said “That is wrong,” she said “We Armenians that have come to this country, we are the odars” because odar in English means stranger. So, we are the strangers that have come to this country, and I never forgot that. So, when I hear somebody saying odar I said “No we are, we are the odars, not the not the others.” So, I say, you have to say non-Armenian. [laughs] 1:17:26 JK: That is interesting. Um, going back to, uh, I forgot to ask earlier. So, Kachadourian is now your last name and the I-A-N means son of or some–the occupation that the family would do. Um, uh, for your last name, your family’s last name, do you know what it was, or–? 1:17:45 AK: Uh, it does not have any meaning and my last name did not have any I-A-N on it. It Encher and, um, from what I understand, my mother said that they cut it short when they were over in, uh, Harput. For whatever reason, I do not know, but they came to this country as Encher and she said that at probably at one point it was Encherion. Now, I do not think it has any specific meaning as to, you know– 1:18:19 JK: –Yeah, the occupation. What about Kachadourian because, um, kach means cross, right, and I-A-N. Do you know any relation that has to do with anything or¬¬, um– 1:18:30 AK: Keeper of the cross. That is what it stands for. 1:18:33 JK: Okay that is what my mom was saying. She was saying it means to hold onto the cross and like– 1:18:37 AK: Keeper of the cross, yeah. 1:18:39 JK: Oh, okay is not that interesting. Very interesting. Um, so, uh, do you see the diaspora here in America different in different places for example let’s say Binghamton in comparison to like new places in New Jersey that have, uh, bigger Armenian population. Do you see differences in that? Like– 1:19:02 AK: Differ– what kind of differences? 1:19:05 JK: Um, like culture or the way they view the church? 1:19:09 AK: Hm, no I do not think so. 1:19:11 JK: No? 1:19:11 AK: No. It is, um, it is more, um, uh, no. They, they have their dances. They– the service is, the service is, is the same. Wherever you go the service is the same. They may have, em, um, early, uh, mode type of service, you know, type of thing but it is basically the same. Yeah. 1:19:40 JK: So, you think the, um, do you think that the service is really the foundation for like the church and everything like that-that is what really, like, uh, hones us to the Armenian culture. 1:19:53 AK: Yeah. 1:19:59 JK: Yes. Okay, interesting. Um, let’s see. Uh, what role do–does the homeland–homeland play in shaping the diaspora identity? Do you have any comments on that or–? 1:20:11 AK: You mean influence? Um, I, I, I do not, I do not think it can in influence us but I think that they, they– the Armenians do have a love of their homeland I mean some, a lot– some of them do. They go over, uh, and, uh, so I– and they support, you know, through organs–through fundraising and–and what not. There is a lot of orphans and so, uh, they, they do help their homeland I believe. Uh, we help by, by supporting, um, orphans, you know, uh, in Armenia. I– when I say we, I am talking about the guild, the Women’s guild. They support, uh, they support orphans, uh, as far as, uh, uh, my husband and I, you know, supporting their– they do have, um, uh, huge organizations. There is AGBU, there is that– we, we do not give on a regular basis, once in a while we may but we–we support by–by way of the church, you know, or that diocese here sends–sends out a, uh, uh, letter that, um, this is what’s going on, the church will support. Some individual families do, you know, there are foundations and–or if, if a loved one dies they will start a foundation, you know, so but the, uh, up here it is through the church. 1:22:00 JK: Yeah. Um so going back to uh the question earlier, what makes you Armenian, uh do you have an answer for that or are you still– 1:22:11 AK: Uh, it is, uh, it is just because I am Armenian, that is my nationality and, um, I, uh, I enjoy, uh, the culture and the service and–and that is, uh, that is I would say that is it. 1:22:31 JK: Do you think there is going to be a difference, uh, between the older generation and the younger one, uh, living in this community, uh, of what makes them Armenian and, like, uh, the events they might go to or, uh, cultures they might stick with or, uh, or may not utilize as they have their own family. Do you see that growing into them? Like, for example, they might not speak Armenian or learn it to their children do you see that happening or–? 1:23:06 AK: Well, uh, it is, it is happening with, uh, our children, uh, we do not, uh, we do not speak Armenian to them in the home and we do not expect them to res–. When they were growing up, uh, we taught them the Lord’s Prayer in Armenian and, uh, but that was it. It was more important, I think, uh, for my husband to–that they marry an Armenian, okay, and I think that that was instilled in them by his parents. Okay, and, um ,but that is not, that was not important to me but, yet, on the other hand, um, now, uh, certainly, uh, my grandchildren I think would be, would go to like Saint Nersess camp to, to–to meet, uh, Armenians so that they can, you know socialize, and go to these functions. Because otherwise how else would they meet someone? In other words, it would be easier to meet an Armenian versus meeting a non-Armenian, uh, uh, unless, of course, somebody introduced you to them, a non-Armenian or unless you went to a bar, you know, in other words, that is the one thing about the, uh, uh, Armenian culture, there is opportunity to meet, uh, um, Armenians. 1:24:34 JK: And do you think because of that, uh, sense of nature I guess, uh, that is what really kept the Armenian, keeps the Armenian culture strong today? Especially in America– 1:24:46 AK: Yeah, I think so. But, of course, we have our churches and, you know, that feeling is, is very strong and, and the children growing up, uh, like just say in New Jersey, Saint Leon’s church, it is so big that they, um, the only non-Armenian friends they have is when they go to school. And depending on, I guess, but on the weekends, okay, they are involved in Armenian Church functions. Um, now up here, we do not have Armenian Church functions so I know my grandchildren are involved in, um, sports and soccer and baseball and what have you. And, uh, so they are–they mingle with all of these people, you know, they get together with the parents and they socialize but, um, growing up, now will they be forced to marry, try to make– marry and Armenian? I do not think so but going to, uh, because they were brought up in, in the Armenian Church, uh, see the church in that sense is important because during the rest of the week, they are with non-Armenian people and non-Armenian parents and their friends and whatnot, yeah. So, uh, I know that, um, my daughter will most likely send, um, uh, you know, send her children to an Armenian camp and, um, and, and go, you know, go from there. 1:26:26 JK: Alright, well thank you so much would you like to add anything else that I may not–mentioned or asked? 1:26:35 AK: I do not think so, honey. 1:26:38 JK: No? Okay thank you so much. 1:26:39 AK: Well that is that? Okay. Tell me when the– 1:26:42 (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Adrian Kachadourian Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2e59527ded2e9601aee5939924d74b81.mp3 5bd4fad5db616f38e418cced94cc7f69 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Adrianna Watson Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview McKenna Hage and Kevin Hiller Biographical Text Adrianna Watson is a college student majoring in Law and is a second generation Ukrainian immigrant who was born in Johnson City. She lives in the Southern Tier of New York with her large, extended family.  Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 71:36 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Watson, Adrianna. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Ukrainian folk dancing; Ukrainian cooking; Summer camps; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AdriannaWatson.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Ethnicity; College students; Holidays; Binghamton (N.Y.) ; Ukrainian Catholic Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Oral History Project Interview with: Adrianna Watson Interviewed by: McKenna Hage and Kevin Hiller Transcriber: McKenna Hage and Kevin Hiller Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:00 AM Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) McKenna Hage: OK, so would you mind just stating your name and date of birth where you're from for us? Adrianna Watson: Adriana Watson, Umm1/14/97 and I am from Binghamton New York right here. I am born in JC Wilson Hospital, so right here. MH: And can you just tell us a little about yourself? AW: Yeah, I am a college student at BCC. I actually just changed my major to law, I'm going for to become a lawyer. I am Ukrainian, very proud to be Ukrainian. I come from a huge, huge, huge family [laughs]. Church is basically all my family plus some, it's kind of ridiculous. I don't know what else you wanna know? MH: You said you're proud to be Ukrainian, what are some of the things that you really take pride in and how has it shaped who you are? AW: I take pride in that I can say that I am Ukrainian, that I've been given this so and so freedom, since Russia is always there trying to take over the country and what not. Being an independent from and being an independent country, even though I was not from Ukraine, I am American born, I take-- it is very -- it is very important to me to always share my heritage to everyone, no matter who they are. And I take very much pride because my family rose me Ukrainian. My first language was Ukrainian even though I was American born. So but I am not as fluent as I used to be, but it is still a lot of fun. Holidays always around Ukrainian, Easter is ridiculous, Christmas is even more ridiculous. We have about oh! a good 100 people over at the house. MH: Woo, that's a lot. AW: Yes it is, we have dinner there. We have a whole bunch of the certain meals that we have to eat a certain way and we pull the hair and we tap the spoon on the head with peas and what not, it is a lot of fun. All home-made food, my grandma makes all the food, it is ridiculous and then we go to midnight mass, and then we go to my priest's house with caroling. And it's a lot of fun. Easter is a lot of fun too. I just, my friends have always been, want to know so much about me being Ukrainian just because I am so open about it. I am very open about who I am, where I come from, I like to explain to people. I like to tell people how proud I am to be Ukrainian. Actually, in fourth grade I was in the paper. My teacher saw how proud I am of my heritage, and I was in the paper for it. It was, it was a lot of fun and I've been very open about it and just, it's just been around me my whole life. My whole family, here obviously, is just so into it. So I've grown to be into it as well. MH: Now, when did-- were your parents born here? AW: My parents were born here. My grandmother was born here. My grand-father wasn't. So that's where I am second, I am the second generation and my great-grandparents were or my grandmothers grandparents were born in Ukraine, so that's where I am the third generation, kind of confusing I know, but that's where I am from. MH: What were-- what brought your grandparent over from Ukraine? AW: Which, my grandfather? MH: Yes. AW: Okay, my grandfather because he was in such turmoil in Ukraine, and he was separated from his family when he was very young, at my age around 18/19 years old. He was actually from Ukraine, separated from his family, taken to I believe Germany and that's where he was pretty much raised. So he kind of spoke a lot more German than Ukrainian, because that's where he was living, so then his family was moved to Poland. So my grandparents' family is in Poland right now instead of Ukraine, but they are Ukrainian. Another confusing kind of thing. But then he came over here because Germany was in such turmoil with the World Wars and whatnot so he came over here though I think Parris Island? No not Parris Island, what am I thinking. Ellis Island. My friends are from Parris Island. Ellis Island, I actually went to Ellis Island, his name is there, it's very touching, very cool. It's very cool you know to see your grandfather's' name, he died of cancer but that's another story. So that's how he came over here. My great grandparents came over here I believe to get married. I am not 100% sure because I never met them, and my grandmother just always tells me how wonderful and good people they were. "titka" means "aunt" in Ukrainian by the way, just a Ukrainian term. They were like the first of the church, and brought up through the church and knew the old church so I think that's what they were. They help built it and stuff like that, my grandfather did, my great father did at least. MH: Did your grandfather, since he grew up in and spent a lot of time in Germany, was he still able to maintain his Ukrainian heritage? AW: Yes, oh yes. He came over here and was like we're raising my kids Ukrainian, that is it, end of story. No matter how long he was in Germany, he did teach my mom and my aunts a little German, because you know it better to know more languages, right? So, but he was definitely hardcore Ukrainian just like the rest of my family is. MH: Did he settle right in Binghamton? AW: Oh, yes. He settled right here in Binghamton and that's how he met my grandmother, yeah. MH: Wow. AW: Yeah, yeah. MH: Do you know of any struggles or hardships he might have faced? AW: Oh, man, in Germany? MH: In Germany and here in Binghamton. AW: Okay, in Germany, I know one story my grandmother would always tell me was, he remembered bombs and he remembered being in a ditch for days, because bombs kept going off off and off. And I think that was his last straw to come over here. Over here he met my grandmother right off the bat so they got married rather quickly, and they started having kids. My grandmother was raised on the farm so she was kind of independent, she was the oldest. Very independent, you know, I am my own woman but we're going to get married. They raised four kids, and it was very hard, they were poor, they did not come from wealth at all. So they raised their own name, and through the church- the church really helped bring them, you know- give them family, give them more purpose kind of thing. So religion was very important to them. My grandfather, when he became ill, was when the hardship really happened and my mom was I think nine when he passed. So my grandmother was basically left alone to raise four kids by herself, she had two jobs, so really they came from nothing. They did it! And my uncle is a doctor, my aunt's a nurse, you know, very successful, but they did it. It's- it's amazing how, you know, they came from literally nothing and he came from such distraught and torn away from his family and he comes over here but still had nothing. But family was really important in the Ukrainian heritage, extremely important. I can't even emphasize that enough because without family-- it's just-- It's very prominent. Kevin Hiller: So, what are your favorite kind of family traditions that you have? AW: Oh, I love these, Oh Christmas is just the best time of year, I love Christmas that are just all-around family. We invite everyone over that is family, even non-family you know, we just bring everyone in. Another tradition is making pysanky. I love making pysanky at Easter time; Ukrainian Easter eggs. Ukrainian dancing-was just a lot of fun; I graduated so I kind of had to end that. But it was just a ton of fun. Man, everything about being Ukrainian comes with it, eating food, making paskas, making food, learning how to make food-amazing. Because I get to experience that and not a lot of people do, you know. And I am very grateful for that and I take that to heart for me, because my grandma is passing on her traditions on to me which is amazing, it's just a lot of fun. MH: Do you have any other family stories that really stand out or mean a lot to you as a Ukrainian that you've heard? AW: Oh boy, let me think-- my grandmother, other than being strong, my grandfather coming from absolutely nothing--oh boy. I know a lot of.. Another one of my other cousins Hegoslavka, I think you guys interviewed her. Did you guys interview her? MH: This is my first time-- KH: Yes, this is my first interview too. AW: Oh cool, ok, so another group interviewed her last time, so they might have a little more detail, but she went through hell and back. Excuse my French. But it was, she went through everything. Literally in Ukraine, didn't know where to sleep, didn't know where she was going to eat. She didn't know, she would sell coats, she would wear five or six coats, she would just sell them for money, for anything. She sold everything. She had a whole family she had to provide for, and she did. She did it. I mean through bombing, through raids, through you know witnessing shootings right in front of her eyes. Witnessing her family being killed. It was horrible, but she survived it, again family really is what brought her to America and what really kept her alive- her providing for her family. And her trying everything she can to keep her family alive is- that amazing and it's an amazing story. She's gone through, I don't know, a lot. I only know little snippets because she becomes very emotional obviously talking about it, but ugh, she-- Ukrainian women and men are just so strong, they have been through literally everything. So even as little as going to the doctor and admitting that they need help is just so hard for them because you know they don't want to do it, they're strong, you know what I mean? It's just ugh, it's just amazing, you know, what you're capable of when you are put in those situations. And she did the impossible. She literally came and didn't know where to sleep, slept on the road, slept on different couches, just knocked on doors and just asked to sleep and eat. They ate bread and that was it, another reason why there is bread everywhere [Laughter]. Why we eat so much bread, but yeah, her story is amazing, I only know snippets, but it is an amazing story. MH: Have you ever been to the Ukraine or would you like to visit one day? AW: Oh, I have never been, but I am dying to visit, when, once I graduate college, and get my feet together, I definitely want to travel the world, and my first place would be Ukraine. And Poland because to visit my family. But I have been offered many times to go to Ukraine, money wise, it's hard because I'm only a college student, so you know what it is. [Laughter] But yeah, definitely one day. Definitely. MH: Do you know where in Ukraine your family hailed from, was it rural was it in the city? AW: It was more rural, really, it was villages, umm the villages they came from are not there anymore. So, if I told you, it would be- you'd be like "What? Where?" So, it's more in Western Ukraine, near Poland, that's why Poland was the best route for them, they were more near the border. Kiev, I have family from Kiev, I know people from Kiev, which is the capital. But yeah, more western Ukraine. Southern-Western, something like that, I'm trying to look at that map [points to a map on the wall] but yeah that's where they're pretty much from. MH: Have you ever faced any sort of discrimination being Ukrainian here in Binghamton or was there ever a period where the church came under fire for anything in the community? AW: Umm, I personally, I've experienced some kind of, you know, hesitance for being Ukrainian. To be honest I really- it was an awful situation and someone was like "oh well you're Ukrainian so it doesn't matter what you say". Something kind of like that. That kind of was just a sentence but it kind of was like really? Really? Really? We're in America, we live in such different ethnicity, like come on. But I have, but I still say I'm proud. I don't care what people say, I am Ukrainian, if you don't like it, get on with your life, that's pretty much me. What was your other question? MH: I think you pretty much covered it. But in contrast to that, what are some of the good things that you have experienced? AW: Just reaching out to the people and, you know, connecting to people, you know. I drive down the high way. I've a Tryzub which is the Ukrainian symbol on the back of my car and you know, seeing other people Tryzubs, I honk [Laughter], I say "hey what's up, we were like connected," you know. At BU, I mean BCC, even at BU, I met Ukrainians and stuff like that. There is a lot of Ukrainian out there I didn't know about, I mean they came over from Ukraine and they're starting over at BCC and stuff like that. So, I met a lot people there which is very cool because we connect obviously. I mean I reach out to every Ukrainian I can and I say "oh, you're Ukrainian? Alright, cool, we're new best friends." Like that kind of thing. I've um, I just-- it is just a lot of fun. I go to Ukrainian camp in Ellenville, New York, and I do that my whole life and I've met whole many amazing, amazing friends over there. It is a like a whole new network of friends. Just kinda weird we talk about how my American friends and I met my Ukrainian friends because they're totally different. They really are. How we act together is just totally different, it is a lot of fun. I definitely reach out to other Ukrainians and I definitely, you know, say "Hey, what's up? Let's talk" and stuff like that. Because why not, you know? I mean we're pretty small. I mean Ukraine is pretty desperate and you know not very rich so, might as well reach out to other Ukrainians and see how their life is and see what they've gone through, and what I've gone through and stuff like that. MH: Can you explain how your American friends and Ukrainian friends are different? AW: My American friends, they're very interested but--they are not as religious, and I don't want to put that as how different they are. But they're not as, like, family oriented. Like for example, my one friend, she's an only child, she barely spends time with her family. She's kind of out of the house doing whatever she wants. Me, on the weekends, I am family, 100%, all the time. Literally, I sleep over at her house, eight o'clock in the morning have something to do, always something to do. And so I leave, I go to my family, Ukrainian stuff, obviously, and then church obviously on Sunday, so that's another thing. My Ukrainian friends were very- we're all the same. We're all around family, we're all around religion, we are very--we just kind of act the same too. We have like a different--persona about ourselves, you know what I mean? So, it just, it's just different in that sense of how family means to one another. Not to be like, "Americans don't think family means anything to them", because they do. But it's just the difference of celebrating certain things like holidays and stuff like that. Like how we celebrate Christmas and Easter. You know, my American friends really don't celebrate as in depth as I do. And my Ukrainian friends, we do. Or when we go out, we have zabavas. Zabavas' dances. It's totally different being Ukrainian. All we do is Ukrainian dance. That's it. So Ukrainian dancing is another huge thing that is just different. I polka. I polka and waltz. So, my friends, they're not used to polka-ing or waltzing, so when they come to our zabavas, our dances, they're like "What the heck is this music? This is like from the 1930's". I am like, "It's okay, you just go with it, it is just one two three, you just go". But yeah, it's different in that kind of aspect, just how we live life and stuff like that, which is okay. It's definitely okay. I definitely have a big influence on my American friends' lives and I definitely bring them into my life since it is so different, but I definitely make it work at the same time, so it's a lot of fun. KH: What are some common misconceptions that people might have about Ukraine and what would you like them to know or what people think of the community here in Binghamton? AW: I think sometimes people think that we are too hard headed, that we're too- we don't, I smile a lot because- but I know a lot of people from Ukraine they don't really smile. They don't really want to get to know other people, you just have to let them in. Once you go ahead, and you're in, they are so heartwarming. They're so caring, because they have been through hell and back, excuse my French again. [Laughter] But they're very hard people. They're very hard to read, very hard to crack a smile with. You know, you have my uncles who are from here, they've been through- they have been through it all too and they really sometimes it's like- I'll even be like "Oh, well should I say that? Should I not say that? I don't know what to say", you know what I mean? But once you get to know a Ukrainian, men or women, they are very caring. They will do anything for you because they know what it is like, and they know that if you go through something that they'll help you. I think that's the most- that's hardest thing for other people to get in on with Ukrainians. I smile a lot because that's just my personality. I'm a very open person, very open minded, but a lot of Ukrainians just cut it off and just don't want to get hurt from other people, because they have been. So I think that is the most--yeah. MH: Do you think that's changing all with the younger generations? AW: I do. Me, personally, I do. My generation has been very open and honest. I think it is just the older generation because they did come from Ukraine and did come from just distraught and what not like that. MH: Do you know how the community here in Binghamton has changed since your grandparents and great grandparents immigrated? Do you know how the history has been influenced? AW: We try to keep the history of Ukraine to the history of Ukraine. We know that it's changing. We know that the language is changing, with the new dialects are whatnot. We are considered, what my grandmother likes to say, the "old regime language", which means that sometimes when we communicate with other Ukrainians it is difficult to understand them because they're more, I don't want to say "Russianized" because they are from Eastern Ukraine. They come over here and we're like, "Wait what are you talking about?". So, it's difficult to communicate anymore with other Ukrainians but we still do it, we accept it, we are very open about it because we understand that it's always going to change. The community is changing to be more open minded and more open to other people coming to our heritage. We understand that we can't have all Ukrainians here in this church, we can't have all Ukrainians everywhere. I mean, we're going to marry other people, it's not going to always be Ukrainian. And I mean you just gotta open up and make the community wide. Any, you know, my father's not Ukrainian, he' English. My mom married him, and he came to the church and he considers himself Ukrainian because we're so open about it. We bring 'em in and we're like "Listen, you're part Ukrainian now". He was baptized in this church. Yeah, he was baptized in this church and everything. And he is now a Ukrainian dance teacher, I mean he literally never knew anything Ukrainian a day in his life before my mom, so-- [Laughter] That's a lot of aspect to how it is changing, bringing more people in and trying to introduce our culture to theirs. MH: Do you know what your father really found shocking at first or what he sort of loves most about becoming this new Ukrainian? AW: Family. MH: Family? AW: He really does. I mean, his family, it's not perfect, no family is perfect, but it's very kind of just distraught. They are not very close, they're not very like "Oh, let's hang out every holiday". Our family, doesn't matter what holiday it is. Thanksgiving we have a huge party, big family comes over, everyone comes over. So, I think that is what he really likes the most is how he has made so much family here, that he considers family, even though he's not. He has made so many new friends too, I think that is what he takes much for granted with being Ukrainian and being introduced into the family. It's just family. KH: Was he religious at all before? AW: Yes, he was Christian but he didn't go to church every Sunday like he does now. So that was a big aspect about being baptized, which was huge and amazing and hopefully maybe I'll find someone like that someday because it is hard. It is difficult nowadays. But yeah, he is amazing, he is awesome. MH: You said before that even though this community is more open and changing. Is it still considered more conservative than others? AW: Yes. MH: And in what ways, you know what sort of practices are still rigid in structure? AW: Like religious-wise? MH: Yeah, also culture-wise. AW: Definitely church. Going to church on time. Being there every Sunday. Going for holidays and stuff like that. We go for every holiday. Thanksgiving eve. We go to church. It's a big thing. It's huge for our family to be at church on time and to be there every Sunday, every holiday. It's good though, it really is. It brings up a lot of things. It is conservative, it brings up a lot of morality wise and stuff like that. It teaches you a different side of what other people are thinking or whatever. It's really good to be on both sides, because I've seen both sides. I understand both sides. My dad's and my mom's. I think that church really what makes us that way. MH: Do you know when your great-grandparents immigrated, what their immigration experience was like? AW: My great grandparents, I think they also came through Ellis Island, I believe so- either that or they came on a boat, I'm not sure. But their experience was very hard. It was extremely difficult. It was not easy coming over here from nothing, from a different country, it's difficult. Even nowadays for immigrants it's hard. But back then definitely with all of the turmoil, and the war, and that possible terrorists out there and what not. It was difficult for them to come over here to improve their lives, and their name and become an American citizen, but they did it. It was a long journey, but they definitely did it and thank god for that because I wouldn't be here. MH: Do you know what their occupations were? AW: I honestly, my grandfather was a farmer and my great grandmother did nothing. They raised, on the farm that I live on today actually, he had a little shop that my great grandmother, worked at as well. They did that in Binghamton actually. Do you know where St. Michael's is? Right around the corner there used to be a little shop, and that was their little shop. And they literally built it and did the best they could, like a little hardware shop or whatever. At my house there was actually a little gas station. Right in my front yard, it was kind of weird- just one pump. And they also lived off of that. They lived off of selling their meat, their eggs, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that's how they raised farmers. My whole family was farmers. My grandmother and all of her brothers and sisters, there was nine of them, so they were all farmers, raised on the farm, and working hard. My grandmother stayed home, my uncles went out to college and stuff like that. My grandmother I don't believe even went to college, she worked jobs her whole life trying to support her family, and support even when she was living with her parents. So, farming that's it. MH: So you said you live in the same house, I think that is so cool. AW: Yeah. It's 140 years old. MH: Oh my gosh! KH: Wow! AW: It's an old house. It's amazing. I mean, you can just feel- sometimes you can feel the presence of my great grandparents which is just amazing. Still the same barn across the street, just a red barn. We don't raise cattle anymore and stuff like that but back then, you know, seeing where they would slaughter them, where to keep them, where the horses were, were the chickens were, we have a chicken coop in my backyard too, so we use that now for storage. But it's really cool living in the same house my grandparents raised and built their name. MH: Are there any sort of specific objects in the house that have a story or some importance? AW: Oh, boy! My-- we actually have my great-grandparents wedding cake still. MH: Wow! AW: So that's in the house, which that is really cool because that thing is like-- I think it is like 100 years old to be honest with you, very old. But it is really cool to have, you know, that presence there. And we've changed a lot of it, we used to have old wallpaper that they had, oh man was wallpaper was just horrible. [Laughter] When they talk about horrible, I'm talking about horrible. So, we repainted that but we've redone the whole house basically. The barn is really what we kept alone, obviously we use it for storage and whatnot. But there's still hay up in the barn, so it's really cool to, you know, feel the hay from when they were alive, you know what I mean? I mean, it connects me to them since I never got to meet them, which I would have loved to have met them. But yeah it is cool, it is cool. MH: Can you explain the significance of the wedding cake and in Ukrainian tradition? AW: It's like a regular wedding cake. We do not cut it, we shellac it, so we keep it forever. It is the meaning of the bond of a marriage because you keep it forever, you shellac and keep it. We have a party to make it with all our cousins. The bridal party, we invite whoever- it is usually women who make it- we invite the women over, we sit there, and we all make the dough. The center of it is paska. Paska is like sweet bread, have you ever had Day of the Dead bread? No? It's like a very sweet bread, very light. Oh, my grandma makes the best paska- again bread is huge. [Laughter] We make that first and then we make little chotchkies which are like little birds, and like flowers and stuff like that and then we shellac them, we all lay them out separate after the shellac and let them dry, and then we take toothpicks and we just stick it on the cake and we add like branches and stuff like that and then we stick them on with ribbon, and we make it whatever design you want. There's so many different designs out there, I mean my grandmother knows all of the designs, I have no idea. But, whatever you want. You can have three stories, my moms' is four stories high, it is like this big [motions with hands], with those flowers coming out everywhere, ribbon, birds, everything, it is really cool. KH: So, you have your mother's wedding cake as well? AW: Yes, my mother's' too. So she, even though my parents are divorced, she keeps it because it is of such significance, it's beautiful, it really is, and it sits up on the corner, next to my grandparents. So it's cool just to see both generations kind of just sitting there. It's really cool. My grandmother has hers at her house, but hers is huge. But it's amazing. KH: Are there any objects, you mentioned the Easter eggs before, can you just explain the significance and the process of making them and what it means? What it signifies? AW: Yeah, making Ukrainian Easter eggs is an Easter tradition, obviously with eggs. Like Americanized eggs, but we just add more designs onto them. It's a process, a very long process, but a very fun process. We take the egg, we put wax on it, we dye it, and then put more wax on it, light it with a flame, then we take the wax off it, and we have an Easter egg. It is really cool to be in that tradition and have that. I introduced it to a lot of my friends, my friend have made Ukrainian Easter eggs before, it's a lot of fun, we have a good time. But we display them over the house. We have two different displays at my house, personally. But at Easter time we put them all over. We have little stands that they stand on, and we just put them in the entrance or in the family room or up in my room, I have a few eggs of mine that I've made and we definitely show people, we kind of show them off because it's part of our tradition and it's part of who we are, and you know it's a good thing to be around. You know I want to introduce it to other people and I have and obviously they made some with me and it's really cool that I can put it on and tell other people who I am and where I am from and have them make it and be part of it. It's a lot of fun, lot of fun. MH: What were some of your friends' reactions, you said before that you loved to show them and tell them all about it, what were their reactions when they did it? AW: Well they were frustrated. They really were. For some of them it was their first times making them, and they sat there and just wanted to throw the egg and just be done with it, which is very understandable. But they went through it and in the end when they saw their end result and they got their egg, I think one of my friends almost cried because he was so excited to make an Easter egg. Their reaction to their finished product and all the frustration they've gone through trying to finish the egg is just priceless, it really is. They love it, they really do and it's really cool to see how much they actually love it. MH: Were there any other traditions that you introduced them too and how did they react to those? AW: Ukrainian dancing. They've seen my Ukrainian dancing. I dance at the festival, so they've come and seen that and are just like "can you teach me some of the steps". They just want to know and be so involved. The language. I've taught them little words and they're like "Oh I know what that is". So I've taught them, you know, little things. Like paska, they have eaten paska. And hren which is like horseradish and beets put together and my grandma makes it-it's the best- we put it on paska and they eat it and they love it. They love Ukrainian food. We actually pierogies, homemade ones and they loved doing that. Halupki, pigs wrapped in a blanket, they loved doing that too. So food, a lot of food, dancing, language, and stuff like that we've introduced to them. KH: So you seem to talk a lot about Ukrainian foods-- AW: Uh, yes-- KH: -- do you have any favorites? AW: Oh boy! What is my favorite? Kielbasa and kraut. I love kielbasa and kraut. We get our kielbasa from New York City, called Baczynsky's, from this place called Baczynsky's. They have the best meat, it's so out of this world, it's amazing. All Ukrainians work there, so we go there and all talk in Ukrainian. It's really cool to have that, you know, little shop in the corner. It brings me back to wondering what my great grandparents would be like because that's kind of what they did. So, it is really cool, and they knew my great grandparents, I mean the owner, we knew them for many years. So, it is really cool to see. I love pierogies [pronounces in Ukrainian] with onions [more Ukrainian], it is so good. I like it all to be honest with you. Obviously, I was raised food is food, you have to eat, and you eat it all or else it is rude. You have to literally eat everything on your plate and everything at the table. [Laughter] So you would have third or fourth helpings because my grandmother just says, "you're not done, you're still hungry", she just puts it on your plate and says, "you're eating it". That's what you got to do. You got to do what you got to do, right? But food is huge, huge in the community. I love Ukrainian food, love it. It's better than, honestly, most Americanized food, because it's homemade, everything is homemade, nothing's store bought other than like Kraut and stuff like that. But my grandparents would- another story- my grandmother would come home; my great grandmother would be sitting there making pierogis all day long. She had to feed like nine boys. MH: Oh, my goodness! AW: Yeah! And they ate a lot. So she just sat there all day long just making pierogies all by herself. Homemade. Just a ton of them every day, that's all they'd eat. It's also just dough and potatoes. So, they'd home grow the potatoes and they had the dough and it was just easy. And they weren't rich, they were very poor so that was just the cheapest and easiest way for them to eat, so it's cool. And knowing how to make them is just really cool. MH: I find it interesting, we interviewed a gentleman of Russian descent and he said that food is not a big deal in Russia-- AW: Really? MH: --so do you know of any other difference between Ukraine and Russia? AW: I'm not an expert on Russian culture. I'm really not. I do know that we share a lot of like the same- pysanky, we both do I believe. And I believe we both make paska, I believe. And Ukrainian dance is another thing. Ukrainian dance is huge, like we both dance very similarly, knowing other Russian groups. We've danced with them, we dance at the same concerts as them and stuff like that. We connect, and we talk, but they do dance very similarly to us which is another thing that's big. That's pretty much it that I know. Our languages are pretty similar too, that's why it is becoming Ukrainian-Russian kind of thing in more Eastern Ukraine right now. But other than that I don't know. MH: But here in the community, you do mix? You do have some interaction with Russian groups? AW: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially in dancing mostly. We just go to the same festivals and the same kind of concerts and stuff like that. Someone will ask us to dance and sometimes they have Russian dancing, sometimes Ukrainian dancing, and you know, sitting back and comparing Russian to our kind of dance is kind of dance is very similar, it really is. We have a lot of the same steps, but it is also very different with costumes and stuff like that. We have different costumes, which is cool to see. Other than that and the community, that huge in comparison. MH: What is the attitude towards what's going on in Russia and Ukraine now? AW: It's hard, it really is. I mean, it's hard to see. We, as Ukrainians here in the community we understand that what's going on is not every Russians fault, it really isn't. So us reaching out to other Russians is not the problem. It's just when they make it prominent that they want our country is when we have the problem. You understand? So, we, here in the community, a lot of Russians here really don't want this turmoil that is going on in Ukraine. They really don't. And so we connect with them and we, we talk about it and they're very supportive of us and, you know, some of them understand and want Ukraine to be a part of their country which is also understandable because we became independent, we were part of Russia first, but as we became independent, we want to stay independent. So that's why I think, for me, being Ukrainian is so strong. Like I'm so proud to be Ukrainian, I'm proud to say that I am a Ukrainian, whether we become part of Russia or not, I will always say I'm Ukrainian. You know? So, I think sometimes it brings tension but most of the time we just talk about it and we just things out, which is important. It really is. KH: So did your strong- oh what's the word I'm looking for -- your strong inheritance of Ukrainian values, did that come with how you were raised? AW: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. If I was not raised how I was raised I'd never have these values really. I was raised Ukrainian, my first language is Ukrainian. So Ukraine was always part of my life. I went to Ukrainian school, Ukrainian camp. So, it really was-- it really is a huge part of my life which is also why differentiates me from my American friends because it is just so-- it just consumes my whole life. It really does, and I am so proud, so proud to be Ukrainian. I mean, I don't know if this important but I've a tattoo of the Tryzub on my ribs to signify that I, no matter-- who try to take my heritage away from me, no matter who try to take my country away from me, I always have that and it is always gonna be mine permanently. So, I am very outspoken to be Ukrainian even though people sometimes get annoyed with it. I understand but like in fourth grade I was in the paper for being such a strong heritage from the beginning. It was just so strong. KH: Do you plan to stay in the Binghamton community here? AW: That's a good question. [Laughter] I would- I understand why I would like to because I have such a community here being Ukrainian and having the strong community I do here, but wanting to become a lawyer and what not, it's kind of more maybe I might travel. I do know many other Ukrainian communities, like Washington D.C., I know a Ukrainian community down there that I'm close to, I have friends down there. Wherever I go I will find a Ukrainian community, I will find a Ukrainian church. I mean this will always be my church. I want to get married in this church, no matter where I live. This is just, my church. But, wherever I go, I will go and try to go to a Ukrainian community, and join another Ukrainian community because I know we are all open and we all just want to be family. So, I probably will move, even though I know it's going to be difficult, but I will always carry that with me. MH: Is your family and community supportive of the fact that you know you might have to leave? AW: Yeah. My family is pretty- they, they understand. They know that I want to go on and travel and live my life and, you know, become successful and become who I am. And they know that I will carry on my traditions wherever I go. I mean if I marry and American, sorry, you're going to become Ukrainian. Like that's just how it is. You know what I mean? They are very supportive, they really are. They know that I have valued this my whole life and I will always value this. So it's just how it's going to be. MH: I probably already know the answer to this, but do you plan on raising your children and your family similarly to how you were raised? AW: Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. Definitely. They will be raised, I will try to teach them as much Ukrainian as I know. But tradition wise and church wise they will be raised Catholic, they will be raised with always going to church on holidays, always celebrating Christmas. Christmas I will always come back here, for Christmas no matter where I live, no matter how big my family is. My grandma will always have Christmas, as long as she's living, at her house. And if she dies and they stop tradition, I'll start it up in my house, you know? So, it will always carry with me, through my kids, through my spouse, whatever. I'm very headstrong on this. MH: You just talked a lot about religion, how has religion influenced you in, you know, morality or just making life choices? AW: Very greatly. I have been raised Catholic literally since birth. So I portray that even in my friends' life. I'm not the type to try and convert them, but I am the type that says "I have to go to church, I'm going to church". You know, I have to wake up on Sunday at 8 o'clock in the morning, I'm going to do it, I have to go. So church and religion is very important in my life. I'm the more tame of my friends. I do do some "crazy" [air quotes] stuff, but religion is always in the back of my mind, morality is always there with my friends. I even try and like, not convert them, but try and teach them some ways. My friends have come to church with me and I've, you know, introduced them to my heritage and my religion and who I am. And it's part of who I am, I'm not going to hide it from the world, you know what I mean? So religion is a huge part of my life as well. MH: So how does Russian Orthodox differ from--? AW: Ukrainian Catholic? MH: Yeah. AW: Russian Orthodox Church, they have different, like, ways to baptize, different ways to do other things. They're kind of the same thing but they just do things differently than we do. So in desperation if we can't find a Ukrainian Catholic church if we go out of town we go to a Russian Orthodox because they're pretty much the same thing, they just do things differently. So it's comparable but it also has some differences to it. MH: It sounds like the communities is accepting of them even though you're different. So, there isn't any sort of [motions with hands to suggest conflict]--? AW: No, no, no. Not that I know of at least. I don't know. Not that I know of. We, as I said, we go to Russian Orthodox when we're out of town and at the beach or something like that. We still go to church on vacations, that's another thing, when we're out of town. So, yeah. KH: So what's your favorite part of the Ukrainian Community in Binghamton? AW: Oh, how big it actually is. Meeting other Ukrainians that are a part of the community that I didn't even know about. You know, I mean, I have a pretty big family here and I have pretty big connections, like outwards, even in Binghamton that don't go to this church and what not. But knowing other people that are a part of the community that I didn't know of beforehand is really cool. It's really cool to meet other people and bring them in and stuff like that. MH: You said you knew of a Ukrainian community in Washington D.C., how did you meet them? AW: SUM, up in my Ukrainian camp, literally, all across the country they come and you know it's cool to see other people from like, California, even Texas, I don't know- crazy. Philadelphia- huge, huge, Ukrainian community in Philadelphia. Washington D.C. I was in a debutant, as well. It's part of the tradition. And they had one down in D.C. and I know a lot of friends, my friends, who go down to D.C. and go to that debutant too, which is a very Ukrainian tradition. So that's how I know other Ukrainian communities and they're all over the world. MH: And how does Binghamton differ from these other communities or does it? AW: We--sometimes they go to other churches and we celebrate other religions and stuff like that but other than that we're really quite similar and that's why I've made so many friends because we have so many similarities. One of my kind of cousins, she's married, well not married, she's adopted into the family, from Ukraine actually. There's two of them, brother and sister, they are not brother and sister by blood, but by adoption and their story is just- man what they went through to come over here. Do you want me to tell you a little bit about it? MH: If you're comfortable. AW: Yeah, that's fine. My- I consider them my family- my cousins. They're very close to me, I consider them my siblings, you know, my sister and my brother. Their names are Tereza and Mykola. Tereza was very young when she was adopted, I believe she was three? Two or three? But Mykola was more six? Seven? Eight? Something around there. So he remembers a lot more. When they, when my cousins went over there to adopt them, they saw that he had scratches, he had bruises, he was beaten. They were both beaten over there in the adoption homes. So they saw both of them, and they saw them just curled up together. They were actually together, they meet each other and they said we just can't separate them. How can we separate them? We are taking them both, because they only wanted one. So they said how we can separate these two kids who connected a bond trying to protect each other. He did everything for her. She was behind him, he was in front and they were just cuddling. They were just holding on to each other, basically for dear life, and he had just so many bruises and so many- you know they were verbally, verbally- it was ridiculous what they would say to them. So they adopted them and they came over here, and Mykola, he does have a lot of problems now because he does remember a lot of it and he used to have nightmares and he's on a lot of medications and stuff like that, but he has actually become a personal trainer. He's very successful. She is going off to become a doctor. So they're very successful. They're normal, very normal. He's the one who more has problems, per se. He's had a lot of, a lot of life issues, but they've solved it and you know, they just have to go with it. You can't- you just have to- you know, you can't push them away. They both are very close to me, they're also from SUM, I know them from. They're from Yonkers. Yonkers is where their SUM group meets. But they're from Port River. So they live far away, but we still keep in contact. They are both amazing, amazing people. What they came from, how they, I mean, my cousins they really are amazing for saving them and taking them both in and with all the hardship they knew that was coming with both of them is amazing. They, they're just, it's incredible, it really is. MH: Wow! That's amazing. AW: Like the stories you hear of, you know, of terrible adoption horror stories. It really is true and you know, they're living proof of it but they're so successful. They're going off and I mean he's had problems his whole life, but look at him, he's a personal trainer. I'm so happy for them. They're very Ukrainian as well, both of them are like me. They're very outspoken about it, very open people, which is amazing too because you'd think they'd be closed off from the world, they're not. They're very open, very--want to bring everyone in and just talk to them about it, you know what I mean? So, which is amazing for them and it's- I don't- I don't even know half the stuff they both went through over there, but to see them now is just truly, truly amazing. MH: So even though they had, you know, such a hard experience there, they're still proud to be Ukrainian? AW: Oh yeah. MH: Do you think that comes more from your family and you know, how-- AW: How they were raised? --They were raised? Yeah, definitely. I mean, they understood just because they were in a bad situation and a bad home, I mean adoption companies and adoption homes over there and you know, foster homes over there are very different from them over here, even to this day. They're very poor countries so they, they really don't have a lot. So, but, they just were in bad home. I mean even over here in America that happens, they're just in a bad home and there was a lot more bad homes back then when they were first born then there are now in Ukraine, but they- amazing that they were saved and they're over here now and they, they understand the difference of a bad home and Ukraine. They don't- they don't connect the two. So they, which is awesome because that means they can celebrate that and I wouldn't be as close, I don't think that I could be as close to them, you know? They'd be more cut off, just more conservative about their life, but they're very very proud to be Ukrainian, just as I am. MH: When your cousins were looking to adopt, did they specifically choose Ukrainian because of their own history? AW: Yes. Yes. And they understood what was going on in Ukraine with adoption companies over there. So they understood what, um, they could possibly go through, adopting from Ukraine back then. But they, they did it and I'm so happy they did and they're happy they did. They are the two-honestly it's crazy- they look like their parents. It's so weird. They all look together and it's like "are you sure you're not born here, like are you sure you're not born from them?" But they're not and they look like each other, even though they're not. So how they grew up together, I think it was just a match made in heaven to be honest with you. It was perfect. Yeah. MH: Wow, that's amazing. AW: It is amazing, it's really cool. MH: Going back to the Ukrainian communities around the country, and you said you could go to D.C., do you think most communities would be open-- AW: Yeah. MH: Are they all very open? AW: I believe so, I can't tell you one hundred percent because I'm not- I don't- I've gone to other communities but I've never really associated that much into the communities. But if I went to other Ukrainian communities across the country I'd probably know someone, so I'd probably be brought in very quickly. But other than that they're very open, just like us, they're very open to everyone and even in SUM sometimes we have Americans that are there that just want to know the culture, you know? Just want to get involved and we accept them, they're there and we just deal with it, you know what I mean? It's cool. It's cool. KH: So going back to your cousins, what part of Ukraine did they live in before they were adopted? Or do you not know? AW: More middle. Middle East. From there, I believe. MH: Do you know how location in Ukrainian influences cultural identity? AW: Oh yes. Eastern Ukraine is more Russianized. Western Ukraine is more Polandized and then the middle of Ukraine is kind of both. So, since Russia is, you know, such a big influence, that's where Russianized Ukrainian comes from. Since Poland is kind of an influence where a lot of people fled from Ukraine to Poland, there, Polish is also Ukraine, Polish-Ukraine is also a thing too. And middle Ukraine is kind of both. It's more Eastern, more Russianized, that I know of. But, Ukrainian, the old old regime Ukrainian language still is huge in Ukraine. It's just not- it's just kind of going away since everything's becoming new with, you know, bringing up with Russia and Poland and stuff like that. So, that's pretty much the differences of how Ukraine can be and that's why it's hard to understand other people because sometimes they're speaking Polish-Ukrainian, sometimes they're speaking Russian-Ukrainian. You don't know, so that's pretty much the difference. MH: What is- where does the majority of the community members here in Binghamton hail from, Western or Eastern? AW: Western. Yes, Western. MH: So, what sort of practices distinguish them from Eastern? AW: It's not really practices, it's just the language. So they language is really what differences everyone from where they come from. I mean, like we said before hutsul, pysanky Ukrainian eggs, even there's hutsul dances, there's a lot of very- sickle dance is more from Western Ukraine, hutsul dance is more from Eastern. So there's different kinds of dances, songs, writings and stories from different parts of the country, kind of like our country, you know very- it's different, you know, wherever you go. So I think that's what--yeah. MH: Do you know when this community was sort of established, around what period and what brought them to Binghamton? AW: Oh boy, it was early nineteen hundreds. And they came to Binghamton--I think because so many people from Ukrainian descent were here so, um, they just kind of saw the potential and just made the community and built the church, and the church was in a different part of Johnson City, I believe. I forget what the old church is, but there was an old church that was made first and that's what-it was kind of- it was small. So they decided we needed a bigger church. We need- we have more people coming in, coming from Ukraine and more immigrants and stuff like that, so we built this church and that was a little later on, I think it was 40 years after the first church was built, I believe so, don't quote me on that, I'm not sure. But then we built the new church and that's when all these people who are now American born, they're bigger families and obviously my grandparents because they had a farm, they had a huge family and then other people in this church also had nine, ten kids, so that's why we built this church. MH: What sort of differences do you see between the older generation here and the younger, Americanized, American-born kids? AW: Obviously because we were born with such technology and such knowledge and what we were open too and what they weren't. They weren't born with all of the technology we have so that's a huge part, I mean we're all on our phones and they're like "why are you always on your phone?" you know. Kind of the normal older people kind of questions and stuff like that, but how they- how they tell their stories is different than us. I mean, they have such heart into how they talk even, they have such pain too and how they talk about certain things and sometimes you shut up and just listen, you know? They definitely--just how the media has been brought up, we brought up around the media, how they're brought up around the media too, which is a huge impact in how we are both raised and how we both communicate to each other because we were brought up with the openness of Google, you know, the news and whatnot like that, and they had no idea half the time. I mean my grandparents didn't have a TV, they had a radio. So that was it, that's all they listened to. So that's just the technology and media difference really is what is kind of hard about communicating with them but they're pretty- they understand and work with it, so it's becoming easier to be honest. MH: Is there anything you could learn from them? Or what you'd be interested in learning? AW: Oh I have learned a lot from my grandmother. She is an amazing amazing woman and I learned how to cook from her, I've learned how to write in Ukrainian from her, how to speak. I mean she was my babysitter so she's the one who really put all her traditions and all her knowledge into my brother and I. I have a little brothers turning sixteen and we both were raised Ukrainian, raised one hundred percent by mostly, kind of her. My parents both were at work so she had us all day long, so she kind of almost raised us in a sense. So her impact on how to cook, clean, how to act and stuff like that really is a big- what has made us who we are today. Another thing about Ukrainian is-it's not sexist but- the women stayed home and they cleaned and they cooked and they took care of the kids because that's what they had to do. The men went out and worked and were farmers and stuff like that, that's how she was raised. So that- she tried to put that in my brother and I's kind of brain, but not in going off to college. Going off to college was for- she wanted all of us to go to college. She wanted her kids to go to college that was her biggest thing, was just go to college, I don't care what you go for just do it. And so in that sense the women got to kind of do their own thing and become their own person, but it's still the expectation that they're going to stay home and cook and clean all that kind of stuff after their job and stuff like that. I am more of the person of I'm not going to stay home cook and clean. I'm going to obviously become a lawyer. So I'm going to have a lot of late nights and you know studying and stuff like that so I am more- I do understand her ways and I respect her ways, which I actually do take into some consideration in my life. When I have kids I want to stay home with them their first couple of years until they go to school and then obviously put them in daycare or whatever I need to do, or until whenever I come home or whatever, and even if I don't have to work and I marry someone "rich" [air quotes] then I'll stay home with the kids, you know? So--having her opinion in that way kind of, I respect it a lot and I take it in my life, you know, it's good to be around your kids and I understand it but also at the same time I want to become my own person and I want to become independent and successful first. So yeah. MH: Is this sort of the typical thinking still among the Ukrainian community here? AW: Yes. The older community, yes. It's how they were raised and that's how they think everyone else should be raised. And it's difficult for them to see all these, like, teen pregnancies and see all these young couples getting married. I mean, she was young, but like, getting married for no reason and getting just- kind of- throwing their life away kind of thing. It's hard for them to see and my grandma sometimes doesn't understand it as much, but she tries to- that's why I think she tries to so much teach us how to- how it should be and stuff like that. But I- I am my own person and I understand both ways and so I think that's why the community is so- that's how the older community is. MH: You mentioned you have a brother. Is he as passionate about Ukraine as you are? AW: Not as much to be honest with you. Really to be honest, he's really not as passionate. He's passionate though he just doesn't speak it as much, but he does understand it. He does, I mean, he portrays to his friends. His friends come and make pysanky too. So he, I mean it's not like he holds it off from the world but he's definitely open about it and he wants to tell people about it, he's just not as--into it as I am. So, I'm the one who's just Ukrainian all the way. He the one who "if I marry someone English, Ukrainian, whatever I'll decide that later on", you know that kind of thing. Yeah he'll bring them too obviously to Ukrainian traditions and stuff like that but he's more of an "I'll just go with the flow whatever, I mean, they're English, I'm Ukrainian, okay." That kind of thing. I'm more, "yeah you're going to be Ukrainian and we're raising my kids Ukrainian whatever". He's more just laid back about it. MH: I just wanted to get this straight for the record, so you, your first language was Ukrainian? AW: Yes. MH: And is it still spoken in your house? AW: Yes. MH: Can you read it and write it? AW: I can speak it, I can read somewhat, I can write somewhat. I can definitely write my name, I can write the date and months and stuff like that. I'm not fluent in reading, writing, or speaking it. I used to be, obviously. My first language was Ukrainian, I lost it after going to school. My counselor told my parents "You need to teach them English, not Ukrainian, because they're struggling". I wish my counselor didn't do that, because I would love to be more fluent in it, I really would. I've always thought about going in college and taking a course and becoming more fluent or something like that because it's really important to me. But yeah, speaking, reading, writing, is kind of difficult, but I make do and I can communicate with other Ukrainians, yeah. MH: Was is hard for you when you were small, having to learn English or, you know, was there a language barrier between you and the other kids? AW: I really don't remember, but I do know that it was, I believe it was difficult. There was a little bit of a language barrier, I was kind of slow learning English. English was always my hard- back in elementary school it was always hard for me. And even in middle school it was difficult for me. English was my worst subject. So learning English was always- I never understood- I never really understood it. Now I do, obviously. But I never really understood how the language works and stuff like that back then. So teachers would be frustrated with me, they'd say "oh you're never going to get very far with English" or "you're not going to do very good", "your essays are always going to be horrible" and stuff like that. So I mean they worked with it, but they became frustrated with me because I just didn't understand it and they didn't know why. I said "my language is Ukrainian" like "this is where I come from", like English is second to me so learning all the -oh man it was so difficult learning all the little words and what they mean and different-- MH: -- prepositions -- AW: Yes, oh my gosh, don't even get me started. It's still confusing to me, so it's- it was difficult, it was, but I made do and I mean obviously I wish Ukrainian was more promoted in my house. I mean my dad didn't speak Ukrainian, he kind of does now, he knows somewhat but he really didn't speak it so that was another thing. My mom, my grandma was really the one to enforce it. I wish they pushed it more because I would have made do but it's okay, it worked out, obviously it worked out fine. MH: You mentioned you went to Ukrainian school? AW: Uh-huh. MH: Can you explain what that was? AW: Yeah it was here, through my church-- MH: OK, so like a Sunday school? AW: Yeah, kind of like that, yeah- it was on Saturdays and it was in the morning and it was also corresponding with SUM [also known as CYM] and for SUM we have to do- there was different camps throughout the summer, so one week was dance camp, one week was like history camp. I mostly went to the all-around camp where we did kind of everything. So we had to recite poems and stuff like that in Ukrainian, so that was part of Ukrainian school was preparing ourselves for something called "zlet" up there, which is something kind of like- it was Memorial Day weekend so we all did like sports and we all recited poems and did all these things and we got points and we got medals at the end and trophies too, that was also really fun, being brought up like that. But speaking it was part of that, so I guess that Ukrainian school was preparing for SUM, which is Ukrainian camp, and speaking it. So that was kind of- it was all in one. MH: Where was SUM located? AW: Ellenville, New York. Which is about two hours away from here, so not that far away. It's a lot of fun. I'm going there obviously Memorial Day weekend. I don't participate anymore because I'm too old, but I just go to see all my friends and we all just hang out and just have the weekend there, we just go to vatra, which are bonfires, and we go to the dances and it's just a lot of fun, we just chill and hang out. Now it's cool because I don't have to do anything. I'd don't have to you know, learn all these poems, which was so stressful back then, but it was worth it, it was a lot of fun. I mean, it helped make me who I am today, going to Ukraine camp and having that diverse friend connection is really cool. Yeah. MH: Just going back to your father's family, I find this so interesting. We've talked about your mother's family and, you know, her Ukrainian heritage, but do you know anything about your Father's English? AW: He's American-born, his whole family was born here. He, I believe he said something about being of Indian descent, I'm not sure, one time he said that it might be possible. They- we're not as close to them. He really made family here, so. I mean we celebrate birthdays and stuff like that with them, I mean when my parents were married they celebrated a lot more with us, like Thanksgiving we celebrated with them, it was a big family thing. And, you know, first holy communions or like birthdays, they'd come, still, to my birthday parties, or whatever. Birthday parties are another huge thing. We have a party for every birthday, it's ridiculous. But, they--they're Christian so they still go to church and stuff like that so we have that kind of connection and that kind of, we can compare like that, but other than that we don't really see them as much so they just kind of do their own thing, we just kind of do our own thing. I mean, bringing them into the family through my mom and them getting married, they obviously took part of some of the Ukrainian traditions because obviously we are very contagious, [laughter] so we call on other people and they take part in it, and they miss it, they really do. But it was cool seeing how they came from just being English and not knowing any other culture and coming and marrying into this family and you know they even took some Ukrainian with them. They have pysanky around their house and things like that. My brother, not my brother, my father has a brother and a sister, and they're closer to the sister than he is to his brother and his sister has Ukrainian pysanky and embroideries from my mom's wedding and stuff like that that they have taken with them and display in their house, which is cool because we are not very close to them, but it's cool. MH: So how does it feel seeing, I like the word you used, "contagious", you know, seeing your Ukrainian history spread? And are you excited about that? AW: Oh yeah, it gets me so excited. I love talking about how I'm Ukrainian and I just like to portray onto others who I am and where I come from and how Ukraine is. I mean, you hear a little about Ukraine on the news, about being Russia trying to take over or whatever, I mean, some people have this certain opinion that- we are a poor country. I mean we're a pretty big country, but our population is pretty small. So, I like to introduce to other people, "Hey, I'm Ukrainian, you want to learn more?", "Obviously, yeah let's go", you know what I mean? So, I love to talk about, like, who I am and where I come from and really introduce the Ukrainian tradition to others because I think it's important. I want to hear about other people too. I love to hear about who other people have become and what other cultures are compared to mine, like Polish, they're different but they're similar. It's really cool to compare and meet other people and stuff like that. So I do the same and I want to know other people's, bring it on, like I want to compare I want to switch notes and stuff like that, but I definitely- it's so much fun talking about my heritage to others because we're so different. We really are, but we are also so much the same. It's cool. It's a lot of fun. MH: Just to conclude our interview, we have a few sort of general questions. AW: Yeah. MH: What is your favorite part about being Ukrainian? AW: My favorite part? Boy, that's a good question. I love talking about Ukrainian heritage and I love celebrating it. I love being with family and just having all of the traditions and really still practicing them. Because I know a lot of other people don't really practice their traditions. We practice every single one. We love our traditions. So traditions basically is my favorite part of being Ukrainian and celebrating them with family. MH: Do you have a favorite tradition? AW: Christmas. MH: Christmas? AW: Christmas. Because we just bring every family member from all across the country, even- we have family in Australia now, they come back-- MH: Wow! AW: Yeah! So it's really cool. I remember when she went away she spoke English and she had this thick New York accent, she went over there now she has an Australian accent. I'm like "wait, what's this, hold on, backup, reverse, wait, what?" [Laughter] So it's really cool to have them come over here, and she's actually getting married in June? July? Which is really exciting because we're going to have people from Canada, Australia, and America-- MH: Oh my gosh! AW: So yeah, it's going to be a big wedding. Seven hundred people. Crazy. Yeah, weddings are another thing that's a lot- Actually weddings is another thing that I love about being Ukrainian because the tradition of a wedding is totally different. The ceremony is about an hour and a half, two hours to get married, and then we basically party all night and party all day. So before, let me explain the wedding, so before you go to the mother's house, the bride's mother's house and you get the blessing of the godparents and they put a rushnyk, which is an embroidered cloth over your head and they pray with you and they wish you the best. And the groom is- well I don't know where the groom is honestly. But this is all at the bride's parent's house, bride's mother's house, and then they go to the church and they get married. The service is so beautiful. It's so long but so worth it, so beautiful. And they- after they get married we go to the reception and the reception lasts until we are done dancing to be honest and dancing is just all night long and then the next day we go to the parents' house and we have another party to celebrate their marriage and we just- we just chill and take the day to actually kind of regroup each other but we invite the whole family, so it's another hundred, hundred-fifty people over at the house. Every holiday, there is at least a hundred people that we celebrate with. So a wedding is another thing that I love. I love going to Ukrainian weddings because it's just so different than, like, an American wedding. You get married in like ten minutes and then you say your vows in like ten minutes and you're married and you go to the reception, you know what I mean? It is totally- there is so much more. And the reception, we do dances, certain dances with the mother and stuff like Ukrainianized dances and stuff like that that we partake in the wedding as well. Which is cool to introduce to Americans, they've never been to a Ukrainian wedding, they don't know what they're in for. I'm telling them, "You don't know what you're in for if you go to a Ukrainian wedding because there's a lot more to it than you think". So it's really cool, yeah. MH: You mentioned you now have family in, or at weddings you'll have Ukrainians from Australia, Canada and the U.S., do you know how their communities differ from communities in the U.S.? AW: Canada, I know more about in Canada than I do about Australia. Australia, she moved there like five, six years ago so I've never been there. Obviously I'd love to go there, and I will go there, because that's awesome. But I think the communities are pretty much the same in Canada and they are here, I think they do a little different tradition wise, different like, things, and stuff like that. It depends on their religion as well, that's another huge part of it. But, yeah they definitely- it's cool to see how others, like, their weddings might be a little different, so when they come to our wedding we're going to see how they react to certain things with the reception and stuff like that, but I think it's pretty much the same and stuff. MH: What's one thing you want everyone to know about Ukraine and being Ukrainian? AW: Oh, how, how spiritual we are. How open we are. How generous and kind and sweet we are. I want people to know that we are open to everyone and we just want to tell you about our culture. We just want everyone to know that we're Ukrainian and we're proud of it and we're not stubborn and hard and closed off as some people might think Ukrainians are. I just want people to know that we are very open and we want- we just want to tell you about our culture and just, open it up and have you come in and celebrate with us, as well as us celebrating with you. MH: Okay, is there anything else you'd like to add or want us to know? AW: I think that pretty much covered everything that I at least know as being Ukrainian. Other than food, lot of food, dancing, the language-- Obviously there are so many other stories that are out there of Ukrainians and stuff like that. Definitely being American-born but being raised Ukrainian has been a blessing and really, I'm so proud to be Ukrainian even though I am American. It's just amazing. It's an amazing feeling to have this background, it really is. MH: Do you identify more with Ukrainian or American? AW: Hmm. I- depends on what--certain things. I identify with being more Ukrainian, but then again I am very proud to be an American. I really am. I hold proud. I, honestly, I might become a politician one day, you never know, maybe President, you never know. Hey, why not? You go big or go home right? [Laughter] So, but being Ukrainian is just so strong for me even though I do love being an American. I really do. I celebrate everything, Fourth of July, and everything like that. I love it. It's an amazing feeling as well to have both cultures and really celebrate both. I mean it becomes extremely busy, but it's okay and it's a lot of fun having both backgrounds. MH: Kevin do you have any other questions? KH: Nope. MH: I think that just about covers it. Thank you so much. AW: Thank you. MH: That was amazing. AW: Good. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Adrianna Watson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Watson, Adrianna ; Hage, McKenna ; Hiller, Kevin Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Adrianna Watson is a college student majoring in Law and is a second generation Ukrainian immigrant who was born in Johnson City. She lives in the Southern Tier of New York with her large, extended family. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Adrianna Watson.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-03 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 71:36 Subject The topic of the resource Watson, Adrianna. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Ukrainian folk dancing; Ukrainian cooking; Summer camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5f0d2536cd6c97ed585fdfc720d1554b.jpg d05aef956d0bbc4c71bbbec2a798091b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4de7ec0cb2578764d004a4f6d0da03bb.mp3 92506b598c3aff28cc234eb815113049 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Adrienne W. Weissman Year of Graduation 1964 Biographical Text Adrienne is a retired New York City school teacher. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Adrienne Weissman Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 23 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, Hello. This is Irene and Adrienne Weissman, and it is Friday, February 23 at 11 o'clock. And Adrian, I would like you to introduce yourself and tell us your name, your age, and where we are and what we are doing. AW: 00:25 Okay? My name is Adrienne Wolfson Weissman. Um, I am 75 years old, and we are in my apartment in Manhattan, and intend to discuss life at Binghamton University when it was not Binghamton University in the 1960s. IG: 00:51 Okay, thank you. So where did you grow up? AW: 00:57 I grew up on Long Island in Franklin Square, and then in North Whitney. And before that, I lived in Brooklyn. Before I went to Franklin Square, started, I guess, the fourth grade in Long Island. IG: 01:17 So, you were born in Brooklyn? AW: 01:19 Uh, yeah. IG: 01:19 As was I. AW: 01:22 Most people were. [laughter] IG: 01:24 Most people were. AW: 01:25 Yeah. IG: 01:26 I agree. So, who were your parents? Who were your parents? What did they do? Where were they from? AW: 01:34 My parents were born in Brooklyn. My father was a CPA, a lawyer and a college professor. IG: 01:45 Where did he teach? AW: 01:47 At Queensborough Community College, he taught law and trying to think what- accounting and my mother was a school teacher in Renton square. IG: 02:04 I see okay, and were they just give us an idea, you know, first, second, third generation- AW: 02:11 College? IG: 02:13 No Americans. AW: 02:15 Oh. My mother's mother was born here. My father's mother and father came over from Russia in 1917. IG: 02:29 Do you know where? AW: 02:35 Actually, I somewhere- I have the manifest from the ship that they took over, and I looked it up online, and- IG: 02:45 That is so interesting, because, you know, it is my background, that is my background as well. And so, I know a lot about the different immigrations. And so, they came right during the revolution. AW: 03:00 Yes. IG: 03:01 Do you know if they lived in in Russia itself, or in Ukraine, or what was then known as the Russian Empire? AW: 03:10 I do not know. IG: 03:11 You do not know. AW: 03:11 No. IG: 03:12 Well, that is okay. AW: 03:13 They came with their oldest son, and then they had five more children. IG: 03:19 Five more children, and they-they came to New York City? AW: 03:23 Yeah, they lived on, I guess, various places in Brooklyn. But when I knew them, they were living on Easton Parkway. AW: 03:24 Okay, I know where that is. AW: 03:30 Yeah. IG: 03:31 Okay, so, you know, I would assume that your parents expected you to go to college since they were very educated themselves. AW: 03:44 Yes, yeah, it was never, it was never a question. It was- IG: 03:49 It was never a question. AW: 03:50 No. IG: 03:51 So, education was valued in your family. Were you the only child? AW: 03:59 No, I have. I had two sisters; one is deceased. All three of us went to college. IG: 04:07 All three. So, you know, tell us, what were your reasons for going to Harpur College? Why did you choose that above others? AW: 04:21 I wanted to get away from home. My parents wanted me to go to Queens College or Douglas College, which is part of Rutgers, and I was accepted at both, but I really- my parents were very strict, and I wanted more freedom. IG: 04:49 Wanted more freedom. AW: 04:51 And they allowed me to apply there, and I got in. I never saw the school before I got up there. It was not like it is now, where the kids go to all these different schools and take tours and everything. I never saw the campus until I arrived. IG: 05:15 But you probably heard that it had a certain reputation. Then draw you. That drew you- AW: 05:16 [crosstalk] the only state school that did not have teacher education courses. It was a liberal arts college. IG: 05:31 And that is why you wanted. AW: 05:32 And I wanted for that. IG: 05:34 Were you on scholarship? Did you get a regional scholarship- AW: 05:36 Yes. IG: 05:36 -or anything? AW: 05:37 Yeah, regional scholarship. IG: 05:39 So did that factor into your decision? AW: 05:42 No. I- my parents both worked. We were not the only families with two cars back then, and we lived in a private house. So, I do not, I do not think money was a real issue. IG: 05:57 Right. AW: 05:58 So. IG: 05:59 Right. So, you never saw a campus before arriving. AW: 06:08 No, most of my friends had not either. IG: 06:11 And most of your friends had not either. What-what was- what were- do you remember some of your first impressions of this very different kind of place, because it must have been a lot more rural than Long Island at the time, or? AW: 06:30 I do not remember noticing that much about the surrounding area. IG: 06:35 Right. AW: 06:35 It was more the fact that I was going to be sharing a room. I had my own bedroom at home, and now I was sharing a room at the college. Was not a very large room, and we did have contact with roommates before we went up, we were told who our roommate would be, so we were able to coordinate. Did we want the same bed spreads, things like that? I remember that, and I remember meeting everybody. We did not really have the kind of orientations that they do now, because I remember when I went up for my daughter's orientation, they did role playing to see what it would be like to be away from your family for the first time, things like that, and I do not remember doing anything like that. IG: 07:39 So, did you have an easy or difficult adjustment? AW: 07:45 I was so thrilled to be away that it was a pretty easy adjustment back then, you know, no cell phones or anything. So, I would call home on Sunday uh, every week, and that was my only contact, really, with my parents, was the-the weekly phone call. IG: 08:10 Did you miss them very much? Or were you too excited to- AW: 08:14 I was excited [crosstalk] IG: 08:15 You were excited, you were not- IG: 08:17 I was not. IG: 08:18 -to aware of being homesick. AW: 08:20 No. IG: 08:20 Okay, so-so [crosstalk] AW: 08:21 [crosstalk] people who were and some people, I remember, dropped out and went back home because they really could not handle being away. They did not want to be away. IG: 08:34 Were these people- do you think there was, I hear from others, a separation between town and gown, and there were people from the City and Long Island, and then there were students from upstate- AW: 08:51 Yeah. IG: 08:52 -so, they had, there was a little bit of a cultural difference, from what I understand. AW: 08:56 There was a cultural difference also because some of them had never met a Jewish person before, and mostly the kids from upstate. IG: 09:08 Right. AW: 09:09 And I remember talking to one of the girls, and she said to me, she really thought that Jews had horns because she did not know anything about Jewish people. IG: 09:23 Were you insulted? AW: 09:26 I think I was fascinated that, because, you know, you grow up in Brooklyn and you do not have any kind of feeling that you are different or anything like that. I did have that kind of feeling when on Long Island, because we moved to an area where the older homes were German owned, and then the new, the new development, and there was some prejudice there, but I was just, you know, how could you have been college age and never have met a Jewish person. It just- IG: 10:03 Or even more to imagine that they have horns. I mean, she was this person. Was saying this in jest. AW: 10:12 Sort of, yeah, but-but she had never talked to a Jewish person before. So. IG: 10:21 Have you ever talked to a person from, you know, a very rural upstate environment? What- AW: 10:35 Probably not. IG: 10:36 Yeah. AW: 10:37 I-I knew, just cosmopolitan. IG: 10:43 Right. AW: 10:44 I mean, I went into Manhattan by myself from Long Island and used a library in Manhattan, things like that. But I do not think I ever met anybody from upstate either. [crosstalk] What I found strange, was that some of the people I met from upstate, they had just gotten indoor plumbing. You know, they lived on a farm, and they had outhouses and things like that, which was so far away from anything I knew. IG: 11:23 So, you know, it was very different. It was very different and, but I-I would imagine that in time, you found some commonalities with-with these people, or did- AW: 11:35 Yeah, we were all studying. IG: 11:37 You were all studying and-and somehow, you know, the differences may be leveled, were leveled out. AW: 11:45 Yeah-yeah. It is funny, because my husband and I just took a trip to Florida--road trip, and on the way back, I got together with somebody who had lived on my floor at Harpur and I had not seen her since Harpur and she was from upstate, I guess, Syracuse area maybe, and she struck me as very small town at the time, and we got together with her for dinner. And, you know, she has got a PhD. She was teaching at the University of North Carolina you know. And when she was at Harpur, she was known because she had been a cheerleader in high school, you know. So, Harpur changed us, I think. IG: 12:46 It sounds very much like it did. So, you know what-what was your experience of I mean, there were many questions. What was your experience of academics at Harpur, when you, when you, you said that you wanted to get a liberal art a solid liberal arts education? Did you have any notions, any ideas of where this liberal arts education would take you? AW: 13:15 I think that I always intended to be a school teacher. IG: 13:19 Yeah, like your mother? AW: 13:20 Yeah-yeah, or a librarian, you know, that type of thing. And, um, uh, so I sort of had a goal. I knew that I would go to graduate school to-to do the uh the teacher education part of it. And just, you know, I-I did not realize how hard it would be, because I did very well in high school. But then when I got up there, I realized everybody there did very well in high school. It was not. I mean, everybody was valedictorian, so yeah, and I found the that I did not. I had not really learned in-in high school how to write a paper or anything. I had to learn that at Harpur IG: 14:24 And so, did you take? What kind of courses did you take? Did you take English creative- probably there was not creative [crosstalk] AW: 14:29 Well, I majored in Spanish and French and minored in English. So, I took a lot of literature courses, Spanish language, French language. And then we had a lot of basic courses that we had to take back then IG: 14:52 Like what, for example? AW: 14:54 History 101, geology um, music, because I noticed when my daughter went that there were many more courses that were not requirements. You know, like their history course was "A History of the Future," which was, I thought, a strange title for a course, but that is we had, you know, 101, 102, 103, 104 for a lot of the courses. So, you ended up with four semesters of history and science requirement and all kinds of things. IG: 15:43 So, are there any courses that stand out? Any-any professors that stand out in your memory as being exceptional? AW: 15:53 Yeah, I remember Dr. Locke, who was my I think he was my French professor, and he was good. IG: 15:56 Why was he good? Because he was an adapted at teaching language or literature or? AW: 16:14 Well, he was fun. We did a lot of conversational skits up in the front of the room, and he was- IG: 16:26 So, you were conversant in French? AW: 16:29 Not really. IG: 16:30 Not really. AW: 16:31 Because it was taught with a lab. You know, it was not done the way it is now. So, I knew grammar and vocabulary, but not really- IG: 16:45 It was more for reading. It was more for reading. It was more- Um, so you liked his course. What were the history courses? You know, did you learn American history? Did you learn a world history? Or was it- AW: 17:00 World history. IG: 17:01 World history. AW: 17:01 I remember the final for the World History. One of the essay questions was, trace the role of the papacy from like 1500 to the 1900s? IG: 17:18 That is so interesting. I mean, it is so, it is so, you know, out of your field of-of- AW: 17:25 Right. And, but all encompassing, but- IG: 17:28 It is all encompassing, yeah, it really, I think, you know, it gives you a certain kind of overview world of Western a Western European history. Um, so, did you study American history? Do you- I mean, you, you were studying in what years, in the- AW: 17:54 (19)60 to (19)64. IG: 17:56 To (19)64 so, you know, Vietnam was in the air, and people were concerned about draft. AW: 18:08 [crosstalk] anything about it, except the- there was a group that were protesting that type of thing. But I do not remember- IG: 18:21 Student activists. AW: 18:22 Yeah, yeah. IG: 18:23 Did they protest on campus? Did they go march on Washington? Do you remember? AW: 18:32 No, I do not think. I was not really a part of all that. IG: 18:38 What about with, you know, your fellow I mean, classmates were they-did they talk about- AW: 18:45 I dated- IG: 18:46 -the draft. AW: 18:47 I dated one guy who happens to be a professor at Columbia now. Oh, well, Ronald Bayer, B, A, Y, E, R. IG: 18:57 I interviewed him. AW: 18:58 Oh, you did. I went out with him. IG: 19:02 He is very impressive. AW: 19:04 Yes. IG: 19:04 He is very smart. AW: 19:06 He is married. AW: 19:06 Yes. IG: 19:06 I am sorry [inaudible] LW: 19:12 We- I met a few times, and so lost touch. She also lost touch with him. AW: 19:17 He lives up here. IG: 19:18 I know, yeah, I mean, I interviewed him, yeah. He was, yeah-yeah. I interviewed him. That is- it really is a small world, yeah. So he was, he was very much, you know, politically active, yes. LW: 19:32 [crosstalk] Chicago [inaudible] AW: 19:36 And he, in fact, I remember- IG: 19:39 That is so interesting. [laughs] AW: 19:40 He was very, he was very impressed, he had met Eleanor Roosevelt. IG: 19:44 Yeah. He mentioned Eleanor Roosevelt, yeah. So-so outside of, you know, you were really not kind of, were you- were there any- um, political issues that were particularly close to you, or were you just focused on your academics, do you think? AW: 20:07 I was focused on social life and- IG: 20:10 Social life. AW: 20:11 Yeah, and academics. IG: 20:12 Okay, so what was social life like? I mean, you studied very hard, but there was a residential life. Did you participate in that? AW: 20:21 Mm-hmm. Yeah, what I remembered most is this disparity between what the boys were allowed to do and what the girls were allowed to do. IG: 20:32 Okay, so tell us about these restrictions on your- on the freedom of girls. AW: 20:37 The girls had a 10:30 curfew during the week, and the boys did not. IG: 20:45 Do they have any curfew? AW: 20:46 I think they did, but it was much later than what the girls had. The boys could live off campus after their sophomore year. The girls could never live off campus. IG: 21:01 Could you have boys in your dormitory rooms in your- AW: 21:08 Not-not that in the beginning, but by our senior year, yes, and there was the rule was four feet on the floor, and the door had to be open. And when my daughter went, of course, it was co-ed- IG: 21:23 Yeah, of course. AW: 21:24 And yeah, very-very different. IG: 21:26 So, did you mind these restrictions? Did you think about them, or did you just excite them? AW: 21:31 I accepted them. When I think back now, why did not we question it? But no, we did not, yeah, we did not even question for Sunday dinner. We were not allowed to wear pants. You know, it was pretty cold, right? And we had to wear a skirt or a dress to Sunday dinner. And we just accepted everything. We did not protest anything. IG: 21:58 Right. So, you know, I am just thinking, were there any sororities that you belong to? Did you- I mean, how did you spend your free time you dated, Ron Bayer but- AW: 22:18 I do not remember um there being sororities when I was there. The boys had social clubs that ranked them, but it is possible that there were, but I was not in that type thing. I hung out mainly with the people who lived on my floor. I am still friendly with the two girls who lived across the hall from me. We get together, you know, with the husbands and everything we see them. IG: 22:55 Could you mention their names? AW: 22:57 Sure, Harriet and Stu Rubin. They both went to Harpur and Grace Hirschdorf was her maiden name. Now it is Grace Rinsler. She and her husband live in New Jersey and Harriet and Stu live in Columbia, Maryland. IG: 23:19 Maybe these are people I can visit in the future. We will see. AW: 23:22 We get together with [crosstalk] IG: 23:25 That is very nice. AW: 23:27 My roommate, Judy Castanea, who lives here in Manhattan. IG: 23:31 Okay. AW: 23:32 Who I see? IG: 23:33 You see her? Oh, you see her. So how do you recall those years when you get together with your friends? AW: 23:41 I do not know that we really talk about just the- what I have discussed with them is the randomness of our being friends. If they had not lived right across the hall from me and had lived in a different dorm or something, I probably would not be friendly with them. It was just circumstance, but it has endured all these years. IG: 24:09 Yeah, so it was a fortunate circumstance. AW: 24:11 Yes, yeah. IG: 24:12 So, you know, how would these friends remember you? What would they say about you back then? How would they describe you? Do you think? AW: 24:28 Wild a little bit wild, I guess. IG: 24:30 How were you wild? AW: 24:31 Sexually. IG: 24:32 Okay. AW: 24:33 You know, I was feeling my oats, because I, as I said, my parents were very strict. IG: 24:40 Yeah. AW: 24:40 I had to account for everywhere I was when I was not in the house- IG: 24:45 Yeah. AW: 24:46 -and feeling my oats. IG: 24:52 Yeah-yeah. AW: 24:53 I mean, I remained a virgin, but everything else was- IG: 24:57 Okay within-within this [inaudible] kind of a restrictive environment, you so-so where did you go out with, you know, your friends or your boyfriend? AW: 25:10 Went to Binghamton. IG: 25:11 Yeah. What was that like? AW: 25:13 We- there was a bus, yeah, that took us right campus, right into Binghamton. IG: 25:19 Yeah. AW: 25:19 And we would go to the movies, or we would go out to dinner. I did not have much money. My allowance was $7.50 a week- IG: 25:30 Yeah. AW: 25:30 -from home, and I got a job in the post office on campus to make some extra money. [her husband talks] What? Oh, yeah. Oh, another friend that Alan Zublat, who lives in New Jersey, oh, we remain friendly all those years too. IG: 25:54 So-so you, you know, how did you- you had this job in the post office. You would go to Binghamton. You know, were you- did you feel happy? Did you feel supported during those years? Or there were periods of questioning? I mean, tell us about your sort of emotional arc during those four years, and how uh, you noticed that you were changing? AW: 26:26 No, I do not remember changing. IG: 26:29 You do not remember changing? AW: 26:30 No. I mean, I have felt that I was being exposed to things that I had not known about before. I had not listened to classical music before, and then I took a course there. So, I realized I liked classical music. IG: 26:50 Did you, did you listen to it in the library, or did you listen to- was there- AW: 26:57 In the class. IG: 26:58 In the class, and listen to the club in the classical music rather than, you know, going to a language lab or, you know, sometimes the music lab. AW: 27:07 No, we listened to it in class. And I remember I had to write a paper, and I got an A on the paper, and I was thrilled. It was on Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, and I tied in the choral section of it with the rest of the symphony. So, I guess that meant something to me, because I still remember. IG: 27:35 Yeah-yeah. So, you do not, you do not think that, you know this kind of that it, that it was that it sounds like it was an enlarging experience. AW: 27:46 Yeah [crosstalk] IG: 27:48 Do not you think that was changing? I guess it did not change your essence, but it changed kind of- AW: 27:57 Well, my-my liking of things, my knowledge certainly. IG: 28:03 Yeah. So-so I am just thinking about um, the external world, outside of outside of Binghamton. You know, what were some of the events-- Kennedy's assassination- AW: 28:21 That-that, you know it is one of these, you remember where you were. IG: 28:26 Yes-yes. AW: 28:27 It was, well, it was the day before my birthday. And a group of us went out the next night for my birthday because we had planned it, and I remember we were just so depressed and unhappy about what had happened, even though we were out. We went to a restaurant; we just sort of sat there. IG: 28:54 Were you afraid after that? AW: 28:56 Initially, yes, we were in the cafeteria and they were announcing over the loudspeaker. You know what was happening. AW: 28:57 Over the loudspeaker? AW: 28:57 Yes, in the cafeteria. AW: 29:05 Who was announcing? Do you remember? Was it [crosstalk] AW: 29:18 [crosstalk] radio or TV announcement may have been Walter Winchell [inaudible] I mean, Walter Cronkite, yeah, Walter Cronkite announcing the President is dead. And I remember we were all sitting there just we could not believe it, and we were concerned about what would happen next. IG: 29:45 Right. You know, was there any conjecture about what that next would be? AW: 29:52 I do not remember. IG: 29:55 You do not remember. AW: 29:55 No. I remember the first time I heard about it. Somebody on campus had a convertible, and they had the radio blaring, and I wondered why there was a crowd around the car. And when I walked over, they said the President had been shot. And then I just remember being in the cafeteria listening to what was going on. IG: 30:29 So let us just think of you know, you were not really involved in student activists direct- activism directly. Were outside of Ronald Bayer, were any of your women friends involved in politics? Or did they talk about it? AW: 30:55 I-I do not remember them talking about it. We were concerned about writing a paper. IG: 31:06 I see. AW: 31:07 You know, school work and social stuff. IG: 31:11 And social stuff. So, you know, the women rights movement happened really, much later in the early (19)70s, you were not really touched by it. AW: 31:14 No. IG: 31:15 But you were touched by it because you said that you were sexually experimenting, or, well, [crosstalk] you were sexually this was the early (19)60s. So-so, you know, so what was it? Was it the youth movement that was, that affected you? Was it rock and roll? Did you listen to that? Or what do you think, what do you think, kind of, because it was, you know, a different time than the kind of strait laced (19)50s I would think, or the time of your parents, you know, they- AW: 32:00 Yeah, to me, it was just, you know, it was getting away from home, and, you know, I dated a little bit when I was in high school, but I guess I was ready to experiment a little bit. IG: 32:20 So, what-what lessons do you think that you learned from this time in your life? What- how did this open your eyes to yourself and to the world? AW: 32:38 Hmm. I do not know that it did. I did not, I did not become interested in politics and the world until much later, after, I guess, after I met him. IG: 33:06 And because so tell me about him and how you met. AW: 33:11 We- he was avoiding the Vietnam War. IG: 33:14 I see. AW: 33:15 And he was teaching. IG: 33:17 And when was that? When did that take place? AW: 33:19 (19)68. IG: 33:20 I see. AW: 33:22 He was teaching in Bedford Stuyvesant as was I. IG: 33:25 So, you went back to Brooklyn after graduating? AW: 33:29 Uh, not to live. I lived in Queens. AW: 33:33 Where? AW: 33:33 Briarwood and I moved back home and went to graduate school at Hofstra, and my parents were not happy having me home. My father was controller for a real estate company, and he got me an apartment, a studio apartment in Brooklyn. I mean, in Queens in Briarwood, and I taught first on Long Island, Plain Edge, right for a couple of years, and then I got a job in Brooklyn, in Bed-Stuy. And I met Lou there. IG: 34:14 Right. So, you said, you know that your eyes to the bigger world opened as a result of this meeting so. AW: 34:24 Well, he-he is left of center, yes and-and cares a lot about what is going on in the world. And by osmosis, I became more aware of what was going on and cared more. AW: 34:43 So-so did you said- AW: 34:46 But I did not at college. IG: 34:47 You did not at college? AW: 34:49 No. IG: 34:49 You did not at college. AW: 34:50 It was not- here was a very small group, yeah, that was active. You know, Ronnie Bayer and his friends. And I was on the fringe of that, the rest of us- IG: 35:04 But you do not remember that he talked to you about any of this or what- AW: 35:05 Yes, of course he did. IG: 35:06 So what-what do you remember anything that he would tell you, or that he was involved in, or what the feelings were, and what were your reactions to them, or you did not really- AW: 35:21 I listened, and I certainly did not disagree with him. IG: 35:28 Right. So, did he go against your ideals? AW: 35:31 No. I mean, my-my parents were very liberal. IG: 35:37 I see, I did not know. AW: 35:38 And my father would tell me that during the (19)30s, he was almost considered the communists, things like that. And they were always Liberal Democrats, yeah, my family. So, you know. IG: 35:56 So really you came from that [inaudible] year you came from [crosstalk] AW: 35:58 Yeah, and I did not really think about it, because it was just part of my DNA, I guess liberal in my thinking, and I did date somebody at Binghamton who was a Republican. IG: 36:19 And what was that like? AW: 36:22 Uh, my parents- my father was very upset about it. He said, you know, "How can you?" I said, "Well, we do not discuss politics." AW: 36:32 [crosstalk] from Bronx. IG: 36:32 Right-right-right. And did he also come from a New York City Long Island, or was from- IG: 36:36 From Bronx. Yeah. AW: 36:40 And Jewish yeah and but a staunch Republican. IG: 36:46 Yeah, well. AW: 36:48 And we were pinned you know, like to be engaged and his parents-he brought me to meet his parents, and I guess I was too outspoken, because he eventually broke up with me and said that his parents did not approve me. So that so that ended. IG: 37:17 Yeah. Was that-that probably was disappointing at first, and then maybe a relief or? AW: 37:25 Well, you know, I moved on. IG: 37:27 You moved on. AW: 37:27 Yeah. IG: 37:28 You moved on. You moved on. So-so tell me about your life, production trajectory after Harpur College. So, you met your husband in the late (19)60s. AW: 37:43 We got married. We went cross country in the summer of (19)68. IG: 37:49 Yeah. AW: 37:50 After knowing him for a couple of months. IG: 37:52 Yeah. AW: 37:53 We drove cross country and we got married in Las Vegas on the way back. IG: 37:57 Wow. AW: 37:58 And [Adrienne's husband speaks] IG: 38:01 What? LW: 38:03 [inaudible] IG: 38:03 [laughs] AW: 38:06 And we will be married 50 years. IG: 38:10 That is wonderful. AW: 38:11 Yeah. IG: 38:12 So have you- did you live, did you continue living in the broughs or- AW: 38:22 Well, we lived in Briarwood. Um, because after we got married, my father got us a one-bedroom apartment. And then a few years later, when I had my first child, we got a two-bedroom apartment. And then we moved to South Brunswick, New Jersey, and we were there seven years, and he could not stand the commute because he was working at the Board of Ed. IG: 38:52 Yeah, that is a hard commute- AW: 38:53 To downtown Brooklyn. IG: 38:54 In downtown Brooklyn. AW: 38:56 Yeah. And so, we moved to Staten Island. IG: 39:00 I see. AW: 39:01 And we were there for 37 years. IG: 39:03 Oh, wow. AW: 39:05 And I hated every minute of it. IG: 39:07 Yeah, you hated every minute, yeah, I am surprised. I am surprised that you moved there, but yeah, you know, it makes sense, because of the commute. AW: 39:14 And the schools were decent for girls to go to. And then we, five years ago, we sold the house. AW: 39:24 Right. AW: 39:25 And we bought in a retirement community in Monroe Township, which is right near right Brunswick. IG: 39:35 Right. AW: 39:36 So, you cannot go home again. IG: 39:38 Yeah-yeah. AW: 39:39 Yeah. IG: 39:41 So, you know, you know, so tell-tell us about, you know, looking back on, you know, your-your life, what-what do you what do you have to really, what were some of the more important lessons you have learned in your life that you would like to share with future generations of students listening what is important as they go through their studies as they think about what, what course of study to take, course of you know, in their life to take. What are some [crosstalk] AW: 40:33 I firmly believe in the liberal arts education, rather than learning a trade. I think it is important to broaden your horizons, so to speak. And then, in fact, both my daughters had liberal arts educations, and then for graduate school went on to do a specific thing. IG: 41:05 So, tell me. Tell me which family members went to Binghamton University. AW: 41:11 My- both my daughters went to Binghamton and my older daughter went on for an MBA from George Washington University, and my younger daughter went on for a master's in Hotel and Restaurant Management at University of Massachusetts, and my son in law became an attorney, and his sister is a CPA. IG: 41:48 I see, I know you said that your grandchildren are considering Binghamton as well [crosstalk] AW: 41:53 My grandson who is fifteen is considering Binghamton, so. IG: 41:58 Right. You know, looking back at that experience, what do you think that Harpur College gave you? AW: 42:08 It opened my eyes to various disciplines, I guess, that I was not aware of, like music and better understanding of history, things like that, but to me, the relationships I made there- IG: 42:28 Are most important. AW: 42:30 -are the most important, yeah. IG: 42:35 So, you know, when you meet with your former classmates, you do not really talk about Harpur. You talk about [crosstalk] AW: 42:41 We do, we do yeah. IG: 42:44 So, what kind of things do you remember? AW: 42:47 People reminisce about the restrictions on us as women back then and the fun we had will if we find out about one of the classmates, you know "Oh, I ran into so and so, went to Harpur with us. You know that that type of thing. IG: 43:17 I am very curious to know if you have any photographs of yourself from that time? AW: 43:24 Yeah, I do close at hand. No, in a box. IG: 43:28 Okay, no, do not worry about it. So do you think that your generations experience sort of, you know, you were in between. You were on the very beginning of the stage of the 60s, and you know all of this. But there was ferment there-there that-that was- AW: 43:55 Just starting. IG: 43:55 Just starting. AW: 43:55 Just stating. IG: 43:57 And how, but how do you think that you are this even, even this experience, even this big generations experience shaped your sort of responses to the world today? Do you think? AW: 44:13 I think I think that the way I was brought up had more to do with it- IG: 44:24 More to do with it. AW: 44:25 Yeah, then-then Harpur, because I was not part of the activist group. IG: 44:34 Right. Well, it is not only the activists. So-so what was your education at home--your very liberal minded education at home um, teach you what were some of the lessons that you know- AW: 44:51 Tolerance. IG: 44:52 Tolerance. AW: 44:58 I do not really know. It was just, it was always there, you know, voting for Hubert Humphrey. IG: 45:06 Right-right. AW: 45:08 Disparaging things that were not liberal in thinking it was just, I grew up with it. I did not give it a lot of thought. IG: 45:26 You did not give it a lot of thought. What do you- AW: 45:27 The people that I was friendly with at Harpur felt the way I did. IG: 45:34 Did-did your professors feel the same way that you did? Did you feel, you know- AW: 45:40 I do not think that-that they were opinionated that way. IG: 45:45 They were not. AW: 45:46 They focused on teaching the particular subject, and they did not digress into their process- IG: 45:55 Even-even the history professors? AW: 45:57 I do not remember them doing it. IG: 45:59 I see. Okay, so do you have any outstanding memories, you know, a very, a very positive memory that you would like to share from your time at Harpur. What were some of the happiest memories? AW: 46:21 Uh, on Friday nights, we would go to the theater on campus to see serial movies that were fun. I cannot remember that, but I remember, you know, with Shazam, I do not remember what-what the character was, but it was a regular thing on Friday nights that we went to the movies. I remember the theater group putting on wonderful shows, musicals- IG: 46:59 Campus theater group? AW: 47:01 Yeah-yeah. IG: 47:03 There is still a very, a very strong theater department. AW: 47:07 Oh, there is? IG: 47:07 Yes. Oh, very much. So, in fact, well, this is not about me. This is about you. Well, I am I am interested. I am interested. I am taking a course in playwriting, which I-I really, really enjoy. AW: 47:21 There was one guy I was friendly with, Tony Manionis. I have no idea where he is now, but I remember them doing on the town. IG: 47:30 Yeah-yeah-yeah. AW: 47:31 It was great. IG: 47:34 It was great. So-so that is how- these are the positive experience. Any-any-any, anything that-that was any I do not want to conclude on this note, but I am just wondering, anything that really stands out in your memory is something that you did not like about this college experience. IG: 48:05 No. AW: 48:05 No. AW: 48:05 No. IG: 48:07 It was all very positive. AW: 48:09 Yeah, well, the weather- IG: 48:10 The weather, the weather you did not like. AW: 48:12 Yeah. I remember- IG: 48:14 Wearing skirts on Sundays. AW: 48:16 Yeah, eventually they did away with that. But I just remember lots of snow, and cold. IG: 48:22 Yeah, it is still, it is still like that. AW: 48:24 Yeah. And, you know, we did not have- if I came with a clock radio, a portable typewriter, it was a lot. When my kids went, you know, it was a microwave, this and that, you know it was sort of very basic living. IG: 48:45 Yeah. So do you have any- I am just wondering- so you went back to Binghamton a number of times since graduating. And how did you notice that the you know, campus was changing apart from your kids bringing more appliances? AW: 49:12 Well, [inaudible] co-ed. They were living in like a suite with a lot of common area, rooms, and as my husband said, I walked around like I was a tourist for the seeing the big city for the first time. "Oh my God, look what they built." IG: 49:34 So, the campus has had really expanded. You go back when-when- what were the years that you went back? LW: 49:43 Let us see our daughter was born (19)71. And she was 18- IG: 49:49 Right. LW: 49:50 -when we first went back. IG: 49:52 So, in the late, late (19)80s. AW: 49:54 Yeah, first, and then four years later, when her sister went. IG: 49:59 Yeah. So. The Campus must have really transformed. AW: 50:03 It exploded. IG: 50:04 It exploded. AW: 50:05 Yeah. IG: 50:05 It exploded. AW: 50:06 When we were there. We had one--we had a little post office, and we had the cafeteria. We had the science building; we had the library. I mean, you know, pretty basic. There were no tennis courts or things like that. But, uh- IG: 50:29 Did you use a library when you were there a lot? AW: 50:32 Yes-yes. Yeah, well, I did not have a computer or anything like that. So, research was done in a book- IG: 50:41 In a book. I remember, I remember. So, any you know outstanding memories that you would like to share with us, anything that you would like to add, any concluding remarks about this very important experience in your life. AW: 50:59 We used to line up for dinner, down the steps and around and the dessert was always lime jell O. So, I remember that. LW: 51:14 That a favorable memory? [laughs] AW: 51:16 No, I just remember that, IG: 51:18 Yeah, lime jell O. AW: 51:19 And I remember when the parents came up for Parents Weekend, they would give us a wonderful dinner, and like pretend that this is what they served us all the time. IG: 51:19 So, what was a wonderful dinner? Do you remember, and how did that differ from your everyday meal? AW: 51:40 There is no salad bar. There was no, I mean, the food, rice, whatever was there that night. And there were no choices. The food was not wonderful. IG: 51:51 The food, the food was, what meatloaf and potatoes, that kind of thing. AW: 51:57 Yeah, I think so. IG: 51:58 So, there was no ethnic food. There was no health food to speak of, AW: 52:05 No-no. IG: 52:05 Nothing like that. AW: 52:06 And we did not question that either. IG: 52:10 You did not question that either. AW: 52:12 We questioned nothing. IG: 52:14 But now you but, but then you learned, as a result of meeting your husband, you learned to question a lot more. AW: 52:21 Yeah. IG: 52:22 And for example, what, what kind of things would you question? I am just, I mean, this is not about your Harpur, but what, what did you learn to question? AW: 52:30 The-the way the world is, you know. Um, who our elected officials are, you know, things like that. IG: 52:44 Okay, so do you have anything to add to say to people listening to this tape, future college students? Advice. AW: 53:01 Enjoy those four years, because you can work after that for many, many years. IG: 53:06 Yeah. AW: 53:07 I mean, I taught for 27 years. IG: 53:11 You taught which grades? AW: 53:13 Uh, eighth grade, junior high school, English, all that time, I retired in 2001. IG: 53:23 And your husband retired. He was also for the Board of Ed. AW: 53:30 No. LW: 53:30 Well- AW: 53:31 No, he had a lot of different jobs. LW: 53:33 I worked for the city, New York City, a variety of different jobs for 32 years, and then I retired from that until the job of not for profit. Oh, and did that for 11 years. AW: 53:45 All financial jobs. LW: 53:47 And I retired in 2011--for real. IG: 53:54 Yeah, for real, for real. Okay, so- LW: 53:58 [inaudible] IG: 53:58 Yeah. LW: 54:00 I think what you what she got out of school, to some degree, is lifetime friends. It is lifetime friends and relationships. IG: 54:07 Yeah, I get that. LW: 54:09 That, um, is something that students that should be aware of and should relish. IG: 54:19 Yes, I think so. I think so. AW: 54:23 Because he has, he has been pulled into those [inaudible] too. LW: 54:28 That Binghamton does provide. I am guessing 85 to 90 percent of the students at Binghamton are from the state. IG: 54:36 Yes-yes. LW: 54:38 So, there is a maintain some type of proximity within the geographic area, as opposed to Virginia or Michigan, North Carolina- IG: 54:47 Right-right. LW: 54:47 -that you can maintain relationships with people in lifetime, friends, which she has done probably more than most people. IG: 54:56 Yeah. Well, anything-anything left to add? [inaudible] AW: 55:06 No. IG: 55:07 No-no, well. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your thoughts and your time. Okay, so this is- please introduce yourself. LW: 55:18 Louis Weissman, Adrienne Weissman, Adrienne Wolfen Weissman's husband, guess, pushing 50 years sitting here listening to the interview that she was doing as a graduate of Binghamton, which I am not, sorry that I probably was not, but I am not, anyway, Adrian, I have been talking, you know, obviously the shooting in Florida has led to a lot of discussions, and the students, the high school students that have hopefully beginning what will be a long term, permanent movement of protesting and effecting change, which I believe that the college students in the (19)60s really led the movement, the anti-war movement, led the civil rights, the women's movement, and it changed things. And hopefully that the students in high school now who are being directly affected by the shootings that are going on gun issues will have the same impact long term, I hope. Although, given the politics in this country at the moment, I am not always sure that the movement is going to be in the right direction. So, you would not we have a president who wants to arm teachers rather than regulate and limit guns. But- AW: 56:37 I did not want to be armed. LW: 56:39 -but, so I so I am not sure, but I really am. Maybe for the first time since the shootings in Columbine and Sandy Hook, that I am [inaudible] getting a little bit hopeful that maybe these kids will lead a movement that will change things. AW: 56:54 He said after Sandy Hook, nothing is going to change. LW: 56:57 So now- IG: 57:00 But just if you could repeat, you know, and what you said about the difference between your generation in the you know, your your class, LW: 57:10 Oh, the period of time? IG: 57:11 In the (19)60s, and Adrienne's. LW: 57:14 Adrienne graduate, what was in Harpur College from (19)60 to (19)64 I entered college in (19)68. AW: 57:24 No, you graduated- LW: 57:27 -in (19)68 so I started in 64 when she graduated. Um, she was in school at the beginning of the changes that were occurring in terms of civil rights, anti-war, women's movement that was just beginning then, and I think took much greater hold the second half of the (19)60s into the early (19)70s, not only in terms of the movements, but in terms of the impact music had, protest music had, which is interesting enough. Sandra and I do not share the same music tastes of the (19)60s. You know, I also remember, I also think the second half of the (19)60s had much more of a drug element to it than the first half of the (19)60s did, somewhat influenced by the music and and-and the people in it. AW: 58:22 [crosstalk] was very into the protests. LW: 58:24 -and the protests were much more visible and much larger, sometimes more violent than they needed to be, but nevertheless became part of the culture because became part of shaping college students, who I think in many cases, still keep the same values that they had then, in terms of an openness, acceptance of people, and make you sort of had a still had a foot in the (19)50s, at that point, to a greater degree than I did who was in school four years later. IG: 59:10 Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Just a few more minutes. Okay, so, what did you say? LW: 59:20 She says slept of through the (19)60s in terms of music. I am not sure [inaudible] Nash and so on so forth. I guess the folk protest songs, yeah. IG: 59:37 [crosstalk] Mary LW: 59:40 Judy Collins, those types of things. AW: 59:43 That I learned from Ronnie Bayer. LW: 59:45 [crosstalk] the Beatles were an influence, but I think the music was an integral part of the second half of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, much more so than the Doo Wop stuff from the (19)50s into the early (19)60s. You know, listen to Sirius radio in the (19)60s. And some of the stuff I just cannot stand listening to some stuff in the (19)50s is unlisted from Frankie Avalon and [inaudible] pop singers. So, I really think that the music did have a major influence in the second half of the (19)60s, much more so than the first half, and helped shape the thinking and the views of a generation. AW: 1:00:35 So, you got to marry someone younger than you. IG: 1:00:41 Well, thank you very much. Thanks. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Adrienne W. Weissman Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Description An account of the resource Adrienne is a retired New York City school teacher. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-23 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weissman, Adrienne W. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Adrienne Weissman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-23 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:42 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f058d49e143134e4166844275da659bd.mp3 07c930bb990ab2a8dab4a92709bbef0e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1 July 2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ahmed Raheem Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ahmed Raheem https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/48cf92a13b6e89c7f47a829e9c715476.mp3 263cf382a4acdf270b4ddc6036f0ad58 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview - 25 March 2015 - 4 September 2015 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ako Serdeshti Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ako Serdeshti https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a73477c7381dda5dfbb74d27b5374aa2.jpg 5b519108f549cf81b1bcf629e2327546 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4f23f9ef29681b252439fb2059692ef0.mp3 3389dbc1b78fd7e2a2db0fd57b21b7b3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-11-22 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alan Canfora ; Roseann Chic Canfora Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Alan Canfora is a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora is an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a bachelor's degree in General Studies and master's degree in Library Science. Currently, he is the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":8403713,"3":[null,0],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,4995385],"15":"Arial","16":10,"26":400}">Dr. Roseann "Chic" Canfora is an educator. She received her Master's degree in Journalism and Public Relations at Kent State University, where she also earned a Ph.D. in Educational Administration. Currently, she is a Chief Communications Officer at Cleveland Metropolitan School District. Dr. Canfora is the sister of Alan Canfora and an eyewitness to the Kent State massacre on May 4, 1970. Alan Canfora (1949-2020) was a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora was an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a Bachelor's degree in General Studies and a Master's degree in Library Science. He was the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Kent State; 1960s; Baby Boomers; SDS; Political activism; Protests; College students; Counterculture; Democratic Party; Republican Party; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Lyndon Johnson"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4993,"3":{"1":0},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Vietnam War; Feminism; Civil rights movement; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy; Cuban missile crisis; Kent State; Black Panthers; Pacifism; Timothy Leary; Drug culture; Exclusion of women; Joan Baez; Cesar Chavez; March on Washington; Harvey Milk; Vietnam Veterans Memorial; Baby boom generation ; Students for a Democratic Society; Political activism; Protests; College students; Counterculture; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Lyndon Johnson Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 201:57 Subject LCSH Educators; Kent State Shootings, Kent, Ohio, 1970; Canfora, Roseann Chic--Interviews; Political activists--United States; Library directors; University of Akron. School of Law. Library; Canfora, Alan Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Alan Canfora and Roseann Chic Canfora Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 22 November 2009 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 SM: Is- It is basically a question I am only asking the people that were activists during the (19)60s. And that is: what made you become an activist? Was there something in your life in your growing up years, whether it be in high school or even before what happened on May 4, 1970? What was it within you in your background that made you become an activist in your life? 00:33 RC: Well, I grew up in a house with a father, who was always politically involved as a city councilman. But also, as a labor activist, I lived in a, in Barberton, Ohio, which was at the time a factory town. And so, every little league team has URW or UAEW, you know, the United Rubber Workers or Auto Workers Union, were the sponsors of just about all the teams and most of my friend's fathers work in factories [agreement]. From my earliest recollections, as a child were always hearing my father on the phone, talking about, you know, basically the fights that they were engaging on, on the labor front through the UAW and being a union leader that was a very natural thing in my household that we respected unions, we avoided, we did not cross picket lines, we understood the value of people fighting for their rights and standing up for what they believed in [agreement]. I have to say that-that had a long-term influence on my own political value of people fighting for their rights and standing for what they believe in. I did not come to Kent State as a political activist, however, I was a very strait-laced, honors students in high school, a cheerleader, very socially involved and very politically unaware, because I do not remember my teachers talking about things like the Vietnam War, even though many of my friends were in the same war, had brothers that were coming home injured or, or in body bags. And I think I might have remained relatively uninvolved, politically at Kent State were it not for the draft, which personally affected me, because so many of my friends and my brothers in particular, were eligible for the draft and were dreading going, and it was that alone, that made me begin to question what is this war? And where will they go? And why do they have to fight? And what can I do to stop them from going? 03:29 SM: We get, before I get into my other set of questions here, when you think going back to that period now when you heard, when you experienced the tragedies on May 4, and that whole weekend, 1970. When you saw the news media afterwards, constantly say that of all places, it happened to Kent State, you remember this in the media? You know, there was a lot more activist campus like Ohio State or particularly Ohio University that had been through some major protests. And then they said, believe it or not, it happened to Kent State. How do you, how did you react to that just what the media was doing, and portraying the, your university and the students there? 04:11 RC: Well, I never bought that because I was there in 1968, a college freshman, and from my very first day on campus, SDS had a very visible and viable presence on that campus. I could remember being handed an anti-war leaflet my first week of school, even though I was inclined to throw it away, and not pay attention. You know, I was still of the mindset that, you know, like the Tennyson, “Theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die.” I grew up in a very military family. My mother was an Army nurse. My father had served in World War II. They met in a hospital in Battle Creek, Michigan, where my father who was recuperating from an injury and I remember you know, as a child always going through their scrapbook and always envisioning my brother's someday going off and joining the army too. In fact, I even looked forwards to joining the ROTC, as you know, kind of been following in my mother's footsteps at one point. But even though I was largely expectant of, of young men going off to service, I was aware that there was growing opposition on the campus at Kent. And it was a very constant level of political activity with SDS. I marveled at that I was very impressed with that even though I did not pay much attention to what they were saying, I was paying attention to their determination. And it always, it always fascinated me that whether it was raining or freezing cold outside, or whether it was fall, winter, or spring, they were there. They were in the Student Center, and they were always working, they were always organizing, they were always engaging with theater, they were always passing out leaflets, always walking with bullhorns and marching on that campus. And I watched it grow. And with that growing, not with those growing numbers, my growing interest in them. So no, I was, I was never of the mindset that Kent was not what the people placed it was sort of a surprise that a major anti-war protest happened there, whoever said that was clueless about what was going on there and never paid attention. 06:41 SM: Yeah, that was a lot of what the media was doing right around that time. One of the questions I wanted to ask, too, is, you know, about the generation gap between parents and students and between parents and boomers. And most of the World War II generation, obviously, you had some very quality parents who were inspirational role models to you, was there any kind of a generation gap between you and Alan and the rest of your, your family and your parents? And secondly, when you used to eat at the dinner table in high school did you ever had, did they listened to you to where their conversations at the table were not only, they were giving information to you about the experiences, but they respected your point of view too. 07:26 RC: So, we always talk politics, but disagreements in our family were very, very common things I can still remember Alan, supporting Robert Kennedy and my dad supporting Hubert Humphrey and, and you know, them debating about which one was the better candidate. And, you know, I do remember when Alan was beginning to question the war and be critical of the war. My mom and dad disagreed with them. But I also remember when I watched Johnson, on television announcing the invasion of Southeast Asia. And I remember looking at my mother's face, and I saw a worry on her face, I did not see what a very pro-military woman to look, the look I thought would be different. But I saw the worry on her face, I knew that going into Southeast Asia was probably not right, and even though my dad disagreed with a lot of the tactics that were being used I think by activists, it was-was more so because he was worried, we would get in trouble, we would go to jail, to see if we participated and get hurt. He never really stifled our opinions or told us we were full of it, he always listened, my parents always listened and even debated with us over the dinner table. We were Italian family, so we argued a lot. And we never made it feel we could not vent our opinion 09:01 SM: Did any of your brothers go off to war? 09:04 RC: No. 09:06 SM: Okay, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, of course, why I had an interview yesterday with Rennie Davis. He was the guy I ended up interviewing in Washington because he was there for speaking event. And he looked at the (19)60s as from 1960 to 1973, which I kind of believe as well, when but when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 09:33 RC: So, when I think of the (19)60s and (19)70s I, the first thing comes to my mind is the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement that those, those are the two I think most polarizing and inspiring episode of the (19)60s and the (19)70s. 09:55 SM: Obviously, I think I know your answer to this, is, is there one specific event that shaped your life when you were young? I would assume it was what happened on May 4? 10:05 RC: Well, certainly that stands up there at number one, also affected deeply by the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and particularly by the assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Bobby Kennedy. I mean, I was just graduated from high school when, when Bobby Kennedy gave us so much hope for ending the war, and so much focus on bringing a real president to the White House. And, you know, seeing those dreams dashed and seeing those heroes extinguished, so, you know, suddenly and tragically was devastating to me. And, and it was very confusing. I never knew how to put that into perspective until I was much older. 10:55 SM: Where were you when you heard John Kennedy died? You remember the moment? 11:00 RC: Yes, I was in a social studies class at Highland junior high school. I was 13 in the seventh grade. And I remember the public address system came on, there was no announcement by the principal, they just literally turned on the public address system and allowed the radio report to come through. I remember watching my social studies teacher grab his stomach, almost as if he has been shot himself in a gut reaction. And then I remember everyone kind of pouring into the hallways, and teachers were crying and crying. And that just began that horribly, long week there, I will never, ever forget the drumbeat of that funeral processional and all the stores closing and all of the grief on the faces of so many people. I grew up in a very democratic town. And so, it was an entire town in absolute grief. 12:03 SM: It is like watching television from Friday through Monday, without ever turning the TV off. 12:09 RC: Right, And I remember we were at church. And walk in the door, just as my father was reacting to the assassination or the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. And it was just like, wow, to be that young, and see so much tragedy back, back-to-back has to have played a significant role in my own political activism later. I was stunned by all that tragedy and outrage, you know, in ways that I was too young to be able to express then. But I am sure it manifested itself in my activism later. 12:49 SM: Right then getting into 1968, which had seemed to be one event after another that traumatized people. And certainly, you would have been five years older in 1968. So, you, what as a young person, what were your feelings? You, after King died, and then finding out that Bobby Kennedy died two months later. I mean, what did you think about America? 13:16 RC: Well, I remember feeling so hopeless, because being in a family where so, so much was put on election with, you know, I mean, as little kids, as very, very young kids, I could still remember my, my brother Alan and my brother Sonny and I, running from precinct to precinct with a little notepad and a pencil. So, we can write down to the vote tallies, as they were posted outside the door. And that was the way they used to do it for my father's election. It was always a very exciting thing for us to run from precinct to precinct on election night, and then run back into the house to tell my father he won his election. So, we always valued democracy and always actively participated in democracy, and then to see people rising to positions of power, rightfully so, to be gunned down. People do not even have the opportunity to elect them was probably the most closest feeling I had as a child that, you know, anybody who tries to do it the right way that tries to go through the system to effect change, that there is no hope for them to do that meaningfully. I became very disillusioned with my, with America, the American that I was coming to know. 14:40 SM: The, one of the- Newt Gingrich when he came to power in 1994, and the writer George Will in US News and World Report always have, always, whenever they get a chance, they like to downplay and actually criticize the boomer generation as a whole for all the reasons why we have problems in America today. They will generalize the breakup of the American family, the tensions between black and white, those who support the troops, those who are against the troops. The whole issue of, you know, lack of respect for authority, when you, they basically condemned the generation, what are your thoughts when you hear the Newt Gingrich’s and the George Wills of the world, make those kinds of comments. 15:28 RC: So, they are ignorant, they are absolutely ignorant, because when I looked back at the generation that I was a part of, I mean, certainly a difficult time in which to live, but it was a time that I would not for the world have missed living. It was a generation of youth that was not afraid to disagree with their parents. And so while some may call that rebelliousness, I really see it as an age of enlightenment. There was an overall rejection of the value of the generation before us, a generation that, like, you know, that worships, worships war, you know, was, was, you know, and instead of, I mean, then they polluted our air with, you know, their industries, and their-their focus on capitalism and focus on, you know, just getting ahead and, you know, being, you know, that whole dog-eat-dog world that they lived in, it was inspiring for me to be part of a new generation, that value peace over war that values the earth over the capitalism and pollution and, and, and we were a generation that fell in love with music, and fell in love with the earth and fell in love with peace. And, you know, the Woodstock generation was, to me, probably the greatest thing I have ever been part of, because it was that rejection of the value for us, and this collective statement that we are different. We are different, we lived differently. And you know, some, some rejected the whole era of free love and off of that, well, you know, that whole puritanical kind of stuff-shirted attitude of our, of our parents was rejected. So, I think people like Newt Gingrich are yucky, and Jerry Rubin who, you know, whose slogan, “kill your parents” made us seem violent and rebellious. When really it was a value system that said, we are different. And we reject the values of our parents, we are not afraid to form a new society, with values that put people first rather than profit, that put peace first, rather than war, something above something vaccines? I do not know. I am proud to have been part of that. 18:18 SM: What, what do you think, if you were to put down some characteristics and qualities that you feel the strengths and weaknesses of the boomers were, and again, we are talking about, some people have a hard time talking about 75 million people when maybe only 15 percent were activists. But, but, but I have also talked to people that if you were in the non-activist group, the subconscious, obviously is part of who you are as a human being. So really does in a way affect the entire boomer generation. What do you consider some of the strengths and weaknesses of the boomers and boomers are those born between (19)46 and (19)64? 19:00 RC: To me, we were really very much a product of our upbringing, because when I remember mostly the division on the Kent State campus, that kind of I saw, my first glimpse of it was at the music and speech building. When the Kent Four were about to be expelled. It is my first political action. And I was just, I was outraged that the four leaders that I had seen for two years walking with bull horns and leading so many people against the war on campus, were about to be expelled and I thought that was wrong. And so when I followed them to the music and speech building, the, the protest, people were protesting the expulsion, waiting at the music and speech building was another set of boomers, a different set of boomers but fraternity guys who then were pissed started, you know, fighting with the SDS followers, and that to me, was a very visual reminder of the polarization in this country, that pitted not just the Woodstock generation against parents. But pit for war against anti-war boomers. You know, pro-materialism, pro-materialist against anti-materialist. And, and I really do think it had a lot to do with who we were when we were growing up during those years, if we were kids who really were affected by the assassination that we talked about a moment ago. Because I mean, when I was at Highland junior high school, and I was sobbing at the death of President Kennedy, I still remember a girl who was on my cheerleading squad saying, “Thank God,” because she hated Kennedy. So, you know, we were, we were divided against each other as we were divided against those that have come before us. And I think it has a lot to do with those in our generation that bought into the materialistic values of our parents. And they were usually the ones that were a little more well off. And I think that the working-class kids were far more influenced by the labor movement, and the civil, and the civil rights movement, and the anti-war movement, combined. So, to me, that is our strength and our weakness. Our strength is being reared in, in the, you know, the working class town, that was the strength for us, being reared by, by parents who served this country and expected to get something in return versus those in our generation who never knew the value of labor in making, you know, improving the quality of life for everyone with health benefits and vacation benefits and safer factories and safer food products and all the things to me that are the strength of that whole era of the (19)60s and (19)70s. Labor is at the heart of that. And I think labor, and the value of that is what really divided our own generation. 22:13 SM: There have been a lot of setbacks in labor because of Ronald Reagan, it all started with Ronald Reagan and remember the airline strike, I remember the airline situation. And from that day forward, labor unions have gone down in terms of the number of people participating in them. And leads, leads me into my next question, which is, what has been the overall impact of the boomer generation on America as a whole? Now we are talking 70 million, we have had two presidents, totally different presidents in Bill Clinton and George Bush, who are boomers. And actually, President Obama is a very late boomer. I mean with him being very young. But what has been the overall impact on America forget what George Will and Newt Gingrich say, but you are just your thoughts as a proud, a proud boomer. 23:01 RC: Well, actually, I, I think that it would, I am not really sure I know what you are asking me. When you say Newt Gingrich, he is blaming us for the current problems of today? 23:14 SM: Well, he, he goes back to the era of that generation, he did this in 1994. And occasionally he has opportunities to say it. George Will writes it all the time, that the drug culture, they look at the negatives, they look at all the negative things and, and they-they say, that is the influence we have on our society. They have very permissive society, no one talks to each other people do not listen, people are getting divorced. There is still the tensions between black and white, and in all the “-isms.” They go back to that era. So basically, what my question is just, forgetting what they said, what you believe, has been the impact of this boomer generation on America and the world? 24:01 RC: Well, I think that that image, the positive image, throughout the world, of what America represents, is embodied in the boomer generation. Because if there was ever a generation in the history of this country, since the revolution, that truly exemplified and put through their greatest test those constitutional guarantees of freedom, and the right to petition the government for redress of grievances, it was the boomer generation. There was no other time since the revolution that anyone can point to where the people put those rights to the test. And not only were gun down for it but got back up and continued to point out the wrongs of this government. And I think that in the same way that the corrupt Gingrich’s and others in Congress who see that, I mean, they saw what we were capable of doing with free, with a free press in the (19)60s with the Walter Cronkite types of reporters, but as long as people know the truth, they can act on this truth. And they can effect meaningful change with the truth. Everything that we have seen in those volatile years of the (19)60s and (19)70s, we have seen a reaction to that. That was why we could not see flag faced coffins anymore. That is why we no longer have a media that is not controlled by profit, and governments. Because when the people are as aware as the boomers were, and act on that awareness, then then government is not safe. So, I think that is the greatest contribution of our generation is we put those-those rights to their greatest test. And we are still here advocating for a return to the freedoms that that we enjoyed then that are, you know, frozen and eroded, time and time again today, by a government afraid of that kind of people power returning, 26:17 SM: Obviously, you are living those feelings and expressing them even I am seeing you at some of the events at Kent State. And democracy is very important to you. But when you look at as boomers have aged, and now the early boomers or the late, they are now on social security for the first time this year for the, for the, for the boomer generation, how many of them really have lived up to what they did when they were young? It can you, can you put, can you put you have seen over the years, even some of your friends who were activists, like you were back in the (19)70s, early (19)70s. And have seen what that, how they lived their lives. I guess, what I am really asking is, have they lived up to their, their beliefs of that particular era? Or did they fall into the same trap of many previous generations of, you know, just going back and making money raising families not really caring about your fellow human beings because they got to put bread on the table, or- 27:22 RC: I think there is a lot of people, and I am included, in part because I remember, my parents never had, we never had money, we never, my mother was a stay-at-home mom, my dad worked in a factory, money was always an issue when I grew up. And I remember my dad telling me that he could not afford to send me to college, because he had three boys to put through school, and I was just going to get married and have kids anyway, and so on and so forth. So, I know that as a parent, today, I gave my kids far more than I otherwise might have. I expected them to work less than my parents expected me to work because I never wanted them to work and to go through what I went through. I mean, I it took me eight years to do my undergraduate work, because I always had to work to pay for it myself. And I had to work, sometimes go to school, sometimes, work while going to school, sometimes drop out and work for a year and then go back. And so, I find myself as a parent, saying to my kids, as long as you are in school, I will pay for it. You know, I want you to get through in four years. And I think that there is a lot of boomers like me who overindulge their children to begin with. And then some of them got, I think, trapped in that whole materialistic, you know, giving, give our kids what we did not have. And therefore, the material possessions became as important as they were to our parents, you know, so what they rejected in the (19)60s, they embrace in the (19)80s. And so, I remember being part of that myself, until I really got a good look at you know an America that does not, you know, it does not have its priorities straight. You know, it is more and more people are going homeless and hungry, as more and more people are losing their jobs. I cannot imagine where all the boomers are now fighting for healthcare now. They were, they have just, they have not only lost their way they have lost their mind. How can they not see that the issues we face today are even more critical than before, you know, to have a record, you know, to have, you know, such a huge number of people in my generation, support George Bush for eight years. It is mind boggling. People who said that they marched in the (19)60s, but now you know, they you know, this is the, this is the new way that they support America. I do not I do not know that any one part would do so, I would not, and I would like to believe I know when America has gone wrong, and I am willing to still stand up to it against the powers that be if they are taking us in the wrong direction. I do not know where the half a million strong Woodstock generation is. They rejected those values back then they moved on and adapted their values and their hearts are not there- 30:19 SM: There were so many activists in the late (19)60s and (19)70s. And I, I have often wondered whatever happened to their parenting in respect to raising activist mentalities and, and their sons and daughters. Now, and of course, when we talk sons and daughters now, we are talking about two generations here because the generation that followed the boomers are the Generation Xers that seem to always have problems with boomers, and now Millennials are the current college group. There is some activism lots of volunteerism. But do you see where, you see much activism on college campuses now yourself? 30:58 RC: Well, yes, there is pockets of activism. But so much of campus activism has to do with, with causes, you know, I suppose, if there were a draft, and most of the kids that age were being sent off to war as it was for us you would see far more activism than you see now. But I also see a decrease in activism by design. If college education was affordable to me, my parents could not pay for my college. But I could work all summer long and pay for my tuition for an entire year. My tuition at Kent was $197 a quarter in 1968, it cost $400 a year to live full time in a dorm with a meal ticket for three meals a day. Today’s college student does not have that affordable, affordability. And I think that is by government design. So that never again we will witness what we witnessed in the (19)60s, today's college students are burdened with debt, they are burdened not only with tuition debt, they are burdened with credit card debt all by design. Because if you can keep them working jobs while they are in school, if you can keep them so fretted over the, you know, the, without the fear of being expelled or the fear of having, of not being able to graduate, so on and so forth. Then they are going to be less inclined to take up causes, causes beyond themselves. And I think that, that- that was- that was what has happened. That they knew that the Woodstock generation’s children were coming to college. And they did not want a repeat of what they had in the (19)60s. So, they made college unaffordable, they made both parents have to work they made college students have to work. I truly I mean, I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist. But I think unaffordable colleges, this was by design. 33:04 SM: Well, you, you said something very important. I have always mentioned I may have mentioned to you the title of my book is “Magic Moments.” And-and that was because in each interview, there has been a magic moment, you just created a magic moment. Because I did not expect that. But it is very well put, because I felt for a long time. And this is not my interview, it is yours. But that activism is a term that scares college administrations to death. And it is like they do not want a repeat of what happened back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And because of the fact that they know that this generation of students or parents are very close to their kids, and anything that upsets the apple cart, they will take their kid out of college, and it is all about the bottom line. So, you raise some really good points there. 33:55 RC: Look at some of the laws that are being passed. I was a teacher for 31 years in high school classrooms. High school teachers today are well I mean, and my, my son, my son, Ian is going to be a math professor, and now well, they have laws on the books right now where you can have a teacher removed from the classroom, but something as simple and vague as conduct unbecoming of a teacher. We have to worry that any teacher who speaks his mind, or you know, a few years back, I stood in front of the White House with a sign saying, “Impeach Bush”. And on the other side it said, “The Bush-Cheney Occupation, who will reconstruct America?” This is right after we went into Iraq. I was out there for six hours. And I remember these policemen coming over to me, they knew I was a teacher. And they said, “How long are you here for? Aren’t you teaching a summer school,” I mean, like they had they knew who I was, and where I taught? And that was, that was chilling. 34:54 SM: Wow. 34:56 RC: And I remember as our union kind of briefed us, our Teachers Union briefed us two years ago on how all the laws were changing. So that we had to be more careful about our political affiliations and our political activism. Because if a school board saw us as looking rebellious for participating in conduct unbecoming a teacher, then you know, we could lose our jobs even, even if we had tenure. That is a small example of what I think is occurring on a larger scale. Our government learned a great deal from us in the (19)60s, they learned a great deal of about what can happen when people mobilized and when, when, when the opposition grows, and so on and so forth. And how does it grow? You know, Walter Cronkite showed us live feed pictures of the Mai Lai Massacre. You know, we saw more and more coffins coming home. That is why we do not have access to that kind of information anymore, that that makes Americans turn, you know, that is why we have the radio waves and the television stations flooded with government propaganda, because they would have to counter any anything that might have done what happened in the (19)60s, encouraged people to, to know the truth about what was happening in Iraq. I mean, we had so few people questioning the weapons of mass destruction. And the New York Times had to take out a full-page ad and apologize to its readers around the world, that they did not do their jobs, the apologies of the Judith Miller's and all the people who were taking their talking points and Karl Rove, it is a whole different ballgame now, and it is all because they learned what can happen when there is a press. They learned what can happen, when there are not-not enough laws on the books to stop us from, from protesting. And then when they shot us down in 1970, they did so with impunity, no one has paid a price for that. They were emboldened in; they have been emboldened by their ability to shoot down college students during the protests and get away with it. Do not think for one minute that did not have a chilling effect on a lot of boomers, who did not see that we got anything accomplished, beyond getting shot down, when we stood up. 37:25 SM: Very well put, well, I am actually, I am one of those because Kent State affected me my entire life and I and I was not there. The, how important, and, were the college students in ending the Vietnam War in the end, and-and how important were the boomer generation and all the other movements, because when you think of the antiwar movement, the civil rights movement, we also had to think of obviously, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, the environmental movement, and all the all the movements that all kind of looked at the civil rights movement, as an example, on how to do a movement, how important were boomers and those movements. 38:10 RC: Well, They, they all emanated from our generation, and in the (19)60s and (19)70s, were all of the above, all the things that you mentioned, were, you know, pretty much defining who we were, as a generation of youth. And, you know, you have to, you have to take a look at what the (19)60s really were, you know, after World War II mothers were sent home, because they had, they were all in the factory supporting the war effort. But they were sent, they were sent home to just support their husbands and have, have babies and whatever and it was, so idyllic, you know, the music of the time, sort of, you know, represented that complacency, that feeling that the only thing that matters was getting a color TV, having a nice car, having a home which you own, and those became the values and all of the things that you mentioned, the values that involve not material possessions, but involve human rights. Were those that became the causal laws of the (19)60s and (19)70s. Because it became apparent that while America while the American middle class was, was growing, and while opportunities, seem to be abounding for a majority of Americans. There was still this painful minority that was being shunned, that was being discriminated against, who did not have those opportunities, who were not given those jobs, who were not getting elected to positions whose voices were not heard. And thank God that among us, in that middle class, who is still enough people to say this is not right. This is a government of the people, by the people for all of the people you know. This is you know; we have first amendment rights that all voices will be heard, yes, the majority will rule but the minority is heard. And so, if, if their voices were not being heard, we had, thank goodness, a sufficient enough number among the boomers that took up their voices for them. And, you know, we had a very, you know, lots of, we had a good number of white people that were killed, along with black people fighting for civil rights in the south, and the sufficient number of men that fought for women's rights and a sufficient enough number of whites that continue to fight alongside their Latino brothers and sisters, and their Native American brothers and sisters, and their black brothers and sisters to achieve the equality that is the true promise of America. That, to me, is not the entire boomer generation, but it was a very significant part of the boomer generation and I always called it the Woodstock generation is part and parcel of the boomer generation. But it was the enlightened segment of the boomer generation, and I think there is still a significant number of those who raise their children, right. And their children were out there pounding the pavement for Barack Obama, or Hillary Clinton, strong people who represent that famous line that is about the true values of what it means to be an American. 41:38 SM: I am going to turn my tape here, hold on a second. Because I always looked at, I got the tape back on now, I always look at the boomers as a very passionate group to begin with. So, in life, if you do not have passion for what you believe in, that is- that is that. this this next question I am going to ask you is, I am going to read it to you this on all the other stuff going on in my head, because I have done it quite often. But I have to read this to make sure everything stated, do you feel that boomers are still having a problem with healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, and division between black and white, divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticized, criticized it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. And I know that is very still big in the veteran community. And, and, of course, what did the Vietnam Memorial do in Washington in terms of healing these divisions within the Vietnam generation, but Americans as a whole, and do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this? Or has 35 to 40 years, made the statement “Time heals all wounds” the truth? In other words, this this comes up because I want to do a little anecdote here. We took a group of students to see Edmund Muskie before he passed away, mid (19)90s. And in that meeting, we asked this very same question, we thought he was going to come back to the 1968 convention and all the protests and the divisions in the country. And he had a one-minute melodramatic pause, and he had just come out of the hospital. And he said, “I just watched the Ken Burn series when I was in the hospital. And my only answer to you is that we have not healed since the Civil War.” And-and then we went on into a 20-minute discussion with the students. Your thoughts on whether within our generation, the boomer generation, the 70 million, are having a problem with healing? Or am I just or am I just thinking something that is not really there? 44:04 RC: Well first of all, I am not sure what you mean, when you say healing. If you think that we were a generation that is looking to heal. It is unrealistic to me, as long as there is racism and discrimination, and, and inequality in this country, it is a gaping room with no hope of healing. It is not like there is a band aid on it. And you are hoping that it pulls together and starts to heal. It is a gaping wound to me every bit as evident as it was in the (19)60s. When, when we have a situation in this country, where a significant number of boomers are fighting to keep their children protected from the message of the President of the United States two weeks ago. That is racism, every bit as racist, as we saw, in the (19)60s, when we look on television, at people carrying signs in front of the White House, labeling the first African American president, a socialist, a terrorist and an illegal alien, then we have racism every bit as prevalent as we did in the (19)60s. You have, for the first time in recent history, I have never seen it, a congressman, who screamed out “You lie,” to the President of the United States during a joint session of Congress during a televised address to the nation in need, desperate for health care. That is blatant racism, like I have not seen, since the (19)60s when they were still using the “N” word you have got even today, for the first time in, in my lifetime ever, seeing people dressed in camouflage, with guns on their shoulders, at political healthcare rallies with the President of the United States there proclaiming their second amendment rights and, and being protected by their first amendment right, to be able to express their opposition with a gun in their hand. You know, there are people that are on talk radio applauding them even. I do not know if you saw that television, on television, the Baptist minister, a white minister using biblical scripture, the day before Barack Obama was coming to speak on health care in his town, citing biblical scriptures as justified praying for the death of the African American president. We have seen a significant rise in hate groups since 2000. And that has a lot to do with fears of immigration that are promulgated by a biased media, the failing economy and the election of a black president. We have people that are still saying when the African American president wins the Nobel Peace Prize, instead of celebrating as a nation, that our president is so honored, they were saying, “It is not time, it is too soon.” Now you tell me, we do not have a gaping wound when it comes to racism in this country. We have not come far enough to say any healing has begun. Because I fear every single day that will not happen. 47:46 SM: This is kind of an offshoot, does this say something about the boomer generation, their failure to live up to some of the things they were fighting for in their youth? 47:54 RC: I am sorry, but I cannot blame a generation. Because it was, I say, I mean, I believe that. In large part, the, the liberals and the African Americans, and the minorities, who were a big part of the anti-war movement, and the civil rights movement of the (19)60s, are the ones who played a significant role in getting Barack Obama elected. So, we are here. We are here and we were heard. And to be honest with you, I think we were not so muffled during the Bush years, because I still believe in my heart, he did not win either of those elections. They have the power and the connection to rig both of those elections. And I do think that the anger that was built within our rank in those eight volatile years. It played a significant role in our numbers doubling. And I think we reared our ugly face again, for the first time, since the (19)60s, in this last election. 49:03 SM: Good point. What, if you were to be in a room at Kent State University with students that you went to school with in the in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, say a room of 500. And, and you were to ask them, of all the events that took place in their lives. And again, the people at Kent State might say what happened on May 4, 1970. But if this was a, from all over the country, from all universities, what was the one event that had the greatest effect on them in their lives? What event would that be? 49:43 RC: Oh, so the Vietnam War. I would say the Kent state killings and the shootings at Jackson State are a part of that answer. I mean, you cannot separate the Vietnam War from the shootings at Kent State. Because it was the most polarizing war, it was one of the most unjust wars, one of the most protracted, it has taken 58,000 from our generation, it was a huge blight on our generation. And it was our generation that fought that war and that brought that word to its knees So that is the single defining moment of our generation, number one that, I mean not being affected, those of us who survived the shootings there, most profoundly. But all of us were profoundly affected by the Vietnam War. Everyone, whether they were there or not, they know somebody who died there or whose life was greatly affected by that war. 50:44 SM: When. when did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end? 50:50 RC: I would say it began with the election of John F. Kennedy in 1960. Was it 1960? Yeah, because he died in (19)63. Because that has when labor prevailed. He was seen as a president that that was accepted and supported by labor. That election was dominated by labor. And he was seen as a proponent of civil rights. And he was a- he was a Democrat. That, that the working class looked at it. 51:39 SM: And when did the (19)60s end? 51:43 RC: The (19)60s ended in 1970 [inaudible] was probably the most chilling and polarizing reaction to the strength of the voices that emanated from the women's movement, the civil rights movement, and the anti-war movement. 52:05 SM: What do you think was the main reason the Vietnam War ended? 52:10 RC: Because of Kent State, no question. Within six weeks of the shooting at Kent State, Nixon began withdrawing troops from Southeast Asia. If you look at any of his memoirs, or those written by his closest advisors, Ehrlichman and Haldeman they all say that the days after Kent State were the most dark of his presidency, it was after Kent State that he was most fearful. I mean, they had buses lined up around the White House. There were people in the streets in every, every, 750 college campuses shut down in protest. I believe it was that year that Harvard did not even have their, their graduation on time. Campuses were shut down. And when you tell the businesses out there that their Ivy League schools, and their colleges are not sending their graduates out to build their companies. That is a, that is a damning moment in this country. They never anticipated I think, when they conspired to-to hear era and stifle our voices, the students of Kent State. And I do believe it was planned everything ahead and-and funnel down through Governor Rhodes in the, Ohio. I do, I do believe that they did not anticipate the reaction it would bring when you when you shoot down four middle class, white students on the Kent State campus. Then all their efforts to brand them as outside agitators failed. Cause you know, they, they, every student hit with a bullet was a Kent State student. 24, or 25, 24 students and a faculty member indicted by the Ohio grand jury as part of the Kent 25, these were student and faculty, these were not outside agitators. 54:08 SM: One of the other issues besides the healing that I tried to get to in this interview is the issue of trust. There are a lot of examples that the boomers saw when they were young of leaders failing them in many ways. Some are very obvious, and some we found out in later years. Obviously, we knew about Watergate and Richard Nixon, and certainly Lyndon Johnson in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, and then Dwight Eisenhower on the U-2 incident when he lied to the nation on national television. And then in recent years, obviously, even President Bush and weapons of mass destruction there was also the issue John Kennedy, being involved with the coup in Vietnam and a lot of other things. What, why, I preface this question by something that a professor said to me in class, in psych 101. And it had nothing to do with what was going on the world it had to do with how people deal with each other. And that is that he, this professor said that trust is a very important quality, we must have in ourselves toward others. Because if there is, if we cannot trust anybody, we probably most likely will not be a success in life. And that always stuck with me in a 101 class. And then that was in the mid to late (19)60s when I was in college, and then all this stuff is happening. And the boomer generation has always been looked at many times as a generation that is distrustful of all leaders, no matter what position they were in, whether it be a university president, a rabbi, a priest, a head of a corporation or a politician. And certainly, college administrators, your thoughts on how important this issue of trust is, within the generation? Is this a negative that this generation did not trust? I guess what I am getting at how important the lack of trust within the boomer generation has played in their lives and passing this on to their kids and their grandkids. 56:13 RC: First of all, the lack of trust does not emanate from the boomer generation. This is something that occurred over time. And I would say that that stands with the Watergate era, where, for the first time we were confronted in our democracy, with the reality that even the people we entrust in our fair elections, to be in government, and even with all of the laws and with a rock-solid Constitution, which by the way, is I understand, the oldest constitution in the world that has survived. With that in place, if we could have such government corruption, as we witnessed in the Watergate era, where every branch of government was involved in that cover up: the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branches of government were all, and the CIA and the FBI, intelligence, were all involved in criminal conduct and in cover up of that criminal conduct. That was the first time in our nation's history where we were confronted with how far reaching that deception can be. And we have spent a great deal of time since then, devising laws that would make it more difficult for that to happen again. And yeah. In the last eight years, we saw where many of those protections that came in the wake of Watergate, were undermined and ignored and overturned by the Bush administration. And we saw more illegal wiretapping. We saw more corruption; we saw rigged election. We saw unprecedented corruption and greed. And we had none of the safeguards that it seemed we had that brought down the Nixon administration, we still have not brought down the Bush administration. Because that deception remains, as long as money controls our government to such an extent, we cannot trust anybody that we elect, because the majority of them who are in those offices are beholden to their lobbyists, and their corporations that are promising them huge golden parachutes, when they come out of Congress, and it is a one man show, every man for himself in government, and I do not view any of that trust in other people being restored. And it is not just trust in other people. But if this is a government of the people, by the people, for the people, if we have no trust in government, then we cannot trust that we the people can effect change, even in the ballot box, and so on. So, we go to public financed elections and take the money out of the realm of corporate corporations that can buy those votes, then trust will never have any hope of being restored. 59:37 SM: Music played a very important part in the lives of boomers, and you have made reference to Woodstock generation, of course Woodstock anniversary was this year, 40th anniversary and all the great musicians that were around in the (19)60s and in the early (19)70s. Your comments on how important music was in not only aiding but assisting a lot of the causes that were that the boomer generation was linked to. And of course, when we talk about this tour, we are not only talking about rock music, we are talking about Motown, which was a very popular music of this of the year, your thoughts on the musicians and music and people who were musicians, and may have had the greatest influence on the boomer generation. 1:00:26 RC: Well, you know, prior to the music that you are referring to, you know, we were listening on AM radio in the early (19)60s, to Johnny Angel, you know, and Leader of the Pact, and all these, you know, love songs and songs about rock and roll and the bandstand, you know, kind of dance music. And then suddenly, I can still remember the first time I heard Bob Dylan singing “The Times They Are A-Changin.” And it was poetry, you know, it was a method. I have never heard music like that. I have never heard a voice like that. I have never heard people just sitting down and listening to lyrics, until I got to Kent State and saw people not dancing, [inaudible], but sitting on the floor, listening to the words, the song, like, like, go, and like, you know, the folk songs would be Joni Mitchell “paving paradise and putting up a parking lot” and all of these voices telling us that things are not what they should be, and that there is a better way, and that we have a responsibility to change it. The antiwar song that came, you know just, “something happened in here, you know, there is a man with the gun over there.” You know, just the song itself “War, what is it good for?”. I mean, they, every single day, we were being challenged to think. And before that we were not, we were just, you know, kind of dumbed down to, to just feel. Feel good about what we had, feel good about our dreams and out plans but not think about anybody else in the picture. And suddenly there were these musicians that were making an entire generation aware of the ugliness of war of the unfairness of things and of the responsibilities we had to be part of what was happening, “the times they were a-changing” And it was inspirational. To watch that music not only grow in popularity, but draw half a million people to upstate New York, to celebrate the fact that, you know, we were born again, as-as, as Americans, we rejected the values of the generation before and we were going to look different. We were going to sound different. You know, we were going to wear different clothing, different hairstyles, and we were falling in love, not just with peace and music and [inaudible] but with the belief that we have in the power of people to change the world. 1:03:14 SM: That leads right into what do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation, best, the best history books, there has been a lot, a lot of great books in the (19)60s coming out right now and over the years. But historians often say that it is 50 years before the best history books start arriving on a period. So, when the boomer generation is in very old age, or is passed on, and then the best books are being written about that 1946 anon period for boomers, what do you think they are going to? What do you think the sociologists and historians might say about this generation? 1:03:52 RC: I think more than any other generation in our nation's history, we had an entire generation that was, that became what I think all college students have historically been. Because we were the generation that our relatively non-college going parents made sure would all go to college. We were like the generation that arrived on college campuses when it was affordable and when it was part of the American dream. And college campuses have traditionally been a haven for protest, a place where ideas are debated the ideas of the day are debated and where people prepare and plan to become effective participants in American society. And as part of that dream of our parents, we became more than any other generation, the conscience of America and on college campuses. When we look war in the face and said: We do not like the war, you wage in our name and we are not going, we do not care that you are drafting us, we are not going. We will go to Canada before we fight. We are not going. We will stand in the streets and lock arms in Washington and keep you from going to your businesses and keep governments from going to their offices, no business as usual. As long as this for as long as long as this war is taking our generation, and fighting something that is just unjust, we were the conscience of America. And I think that is why as I said before, it is by design since then, that they have made sure that college students today do not have the time to do the thinking and the dreaming that we had. They do not have time today, [inaudible] because we are a nation right now. Without a Conscience. 1:05:49 SM: Before I go into the last part of the interview, which is basically some of the personalities and terms of period, where we just make a few comments. This this one I would like you just do, like John Filo did when I interviewed him early summer, what was it like to be? I was not there. But in your own words, what was it like to be there on May 4, 1970, maybe just to give a little description of the day. And I remember John told me that, you know that he never planned to be there that day, he was an off-campus reporter was called to the event, was studying for working on a paper, and then he was thrust right into it. Just your thoughts of what transpired on that day, May 4, 1970. 1:06:41 RC: Well, I planned to be there. The shooting occurred in the backyard of my dormitory. But when that day started, I remember most even as we walked through the campus, looking at other cadres, as we call them, the Kent SDS was no longer but I was part of a cadre of activists that for that entire year had gone to demonstrations in Washington and Chicago and Cleveland and, and we had just gone to Ohio State to support them the Friday before when they were getting shot at with buckshot and, and tear gas. And I remember as I was walking up to the campus, and I saw another group called the Elm Street gang, and it was like, I felt as part of something significant, I felt a part of something important. We were committed to putting that war to an end, Nixon had announced the invasion of Cambodia only days before. And the campuses across this country were up in arms. students across this country were saying no to war in record breaking numbers. And it is mind boggling to me that we had such a connection to one another, from campus to campus across this country. And we did not have what kids have today, internet. We did this all with telephone long distance calls and leaflets on our own campuses. And with a media that covers what we did. We were as united on that morning, as I had ever seen anyone, I felt a part of something so much bigger than myself. It was not about an action that the crazies were going to do. It was not about an action happening on the Penn State campus. It was about a call made at Rutgers University for a National Student strike. And we were part of that we were part of something that was happening across this nation. And so, I entered the campus feeling inspired, feeling, feeling energized, feeling empowered. And even as the National Guardsmen advanced on us with tear gas again, and with the bayonets that proved, you know, so devastating to the kids who had been stabbed the night before. I never felt the sense of fear, even in the midst of all of that opposition, all of that military might, I still had trust in our lie, in America, and in our Constitution and its guarantees of the right to free speech. I still had trust that as long as we protested peacefully, they would never open fire on us. And that was a rude awakening. Which is quite an understatement, to, to see them lift their weapons in aim at us on the practice football field was shocking enough, shocking enough that as my brother walked toward them with his black flag, I walked up to Alan and said, “Alan, they are aiming right at you. Let us get out of here.” I actually said to him because it was the first time ever it had crossed my mind. Do they hate us so much that they could open fire on and even as they left the practice field and made their accent up the hill? I still watch and even as I turn them turn, even as I watched them turn in unison and lift their weapons and even as I saw the puffs of smoke. My first instinct was to run far because students at Ohio State had been shot at with buckshot. It never occurred to me; they would have lived military ammunition. And if it were not for Alan's roommate, Jimmy, who pulled me behind a parked car, I might also have been hit because as soon as we got behind the car, it was obvious that this was live ammunition was zipping by our heads and piercing the steel bodies of the cars and something into the grass to our left and the pavement to our right. It was the most horrifying 13 seconds of realization that, you know, when the gunfire ended, my first thought was, “oh my god, they shot they shot us” and then to come out from behind that car and see Bill Schroeder lying on his back with blood on his shoulder, three feet behind me and I can see over in the premise yard. My friend Sandy Scheuer, being carried with a shot a bullet through her juggler vein and then remembering where I had last seen Alan would have put him directly in the line of fire. I went running across the pavement to the foot of Blanket Hill seeing, someone lying in a pool of blood and dreading that it was Alan only to find Jeff lying in a pool of blood and then my friend Eddie running up behind me and yelling into my ear, Alan and Tom both got hit. You know that is-that is a, that is a moment that has never left me, the shock of it. The fear, the, the sound, the colors, everything is as, as vivid in my mind as it was on that day. To see American soldiers turning their guns on American people is something that I hope nobody in America will ever witness again. 1:12:12 SM: Did you go to the funerals of any of the students? 1:12:16 RC: No, I did not. We, Sandy's funeral was in Youngstown. And Allison's was in Vicksburg. They were huge media events at the time. And it was, I do not know how to explain. We were getting a lot of phone calls from press, we were getting a lot of hate mail, and death threats. Because Alan was one of the wounded. He was seen as one of the instigators and FBI was calling and whatever. It is not surprising that we all went home and stayed there for a while. We did not seek out anything, any, any of the places where the media was, I almost regret that because I think we should have been telling the truth that we knew immediately. But any of us who were really actively involved when we had our own family members, like my aunt who barged into my mother's kitchen that night, looking at Alan with his arm bandage still, from his wound, yelling, “you know, there was a sniper, you know, there was a sniper.” I mean, like to have your own family members believe that American soldiers would not turn their guns on American people without provocation and without a reason to do so. You know, you are living in a country that sees you not as a victim. But as an enemy. You do not want to- you do not want to leave the house. 1:13:50 SM: Even leading up to that weekend or over the last the two years when you were an activist at the university and going to other schools. Did you feel that you were being watched at all by, like the student leaders of Kent State were being watched by the FBI or the CIA or did you have any sense of that or was all this realization came, not trusting the government right on that day? 1:14:14 RC: I never experienced any of that paranoia until 1977. When we moved on to the campus intent to protect the May 4 site from destruction. It was during that time that it was very obvious we were being followed. I mean, there was a cop car following my-my Ford Pinto everywhere I went on that campus. We were being, we had charges dredged up against us, I was charged with criminal trespass at an action when I was on when my lawyer actually me on the good time had to-to keep me far away from Kent because they kept jailing the leaders of the May 4th coalition. There were so many trumped up charges on us in 1977 that our attorneys were successful in bringing in members of the US Justice Department to follow us around so that we had proof that we were not breaking the law. So, we could avoid having more of the trumped-up charges against us. 1:15:14 SM: When you heard about- 1:15:16 RC: That was the only time I have been paranoid about being followed. 1:15:19 SM: When you heard about Jackson State. How did you react to that? The Jackson State killings? 1:15:24 RC: Oh, well, we were not, that that was our, that is our sister in tragedy. I mean, we were still reeling from what happened to us only days later to hear that it was still happening on this campus. But what bothered me most was the outrage was, was so minimal, compared and I was not sure if it was strictly racism, or just an America too numb to care anymore. You know, because had had they had succeeded in having the chilling effect that they desired, that they could continue to shoot students, and not have any action, any reaction would be, you know, decreased rather than in-, would there be an increase? I think, I do not know if it was a test, test run, or what. But it was always, to me very tragic that the students at Jackson State, the deaths of their students at Jackson State, did not meet with the widespread protests of four white kids at Kent State. 1:16:22 SM: Thanks for sharing the experience. My note still, I can tell in your voice, when we were talking here that even brings a lot of emotion to you even now, and probably will forever. 1:16:40 RC: How Could it not, How Could it not, [Pardon] How could it not? 1:16:41 SM: Oh, yes, that is right. And again, I think I have mentioned to you and Alan, the effect that this has had all over the country that I often wonder how many people there are in the United States, who are our age who that that event on that day has shaped their lives. I wish someday- 1:17:01 RC: I would like to believe that it did not make them more reluctant to stand up for what they believe in. I would like I would like to believe that they have not taught their children more about the risks of campus activism than, you know, the historical significance and the gains of that of that activism. I think that student activism is still alive on our college campuses. I just think that, like I said before, we have made it more and more difficult for students to be there more and more students live, you know, off campus, or for have to commute or have to go to jobs, after they are, when they are not in classes that they do not congregate the way, we did. We used to hang out in the hub by hundreds every day, and play music and talk we talked about the shooting. I do not see that- 1:17:56 SM: There used to be guerrilla theater tours. But I have not seen that since I was a college student. 1:18:05 RC: I loved it, SDS always had a guerilla theater committee. 1:18:07 SM: The, the end of the interview, we are just going to be just real quick responses to, to words or terms or our names of people. Woodstock. 1:18:17 RC what do you want me to do? Come up with a word or a phrase? 1:18:21 SM: A word or just-just a couple of words and just your thoughts when you hear the, these names or terms of the (19)60s, Woodstock? 1:18:30 RC: The birth of a new era- 1:18:35 SM: 1968 1:18:39 RC: Robert Kennedy's assassination- 1:18:42 SM: Counterculture. [Woodstock] What I did not hear? 1:18:48 RC: Woodstock. [laughter] Or more the Yippies, I kind of thought of them both at the same time, the, the hippies and the Yippies- 1:18:58 SM: Yeah, that was my next, how did you know that? ESP here, that was my next one. The hippies and the Yippies. 1:19:06 RC: Counterculture. 1:18:58 SM: Students for democratic society. 1:18:58 RC: [undecipherable]: 1:18:58 SM: Weathermen? 1:19:13 RC: Absolutely, the best idea, the most organized, the most inspirational and the start of it all. If it were not for SDS at Kent the impact, May 4th would not have happened, and I do not blame them for the shooting. I blame them for the movement that brought the attention to Kent State. So, that Nixon hated Kent SDS. I think he chose Kent to be the, the martyr, the victim rather, Kent to be the, I take that back. He chose Kent to send, as the place to send his message that student protests will not be tolerated because of SDS. They were, they were the most significant, organized catalyst for the student anti-war movement in this country- 1:20:12 SM: The Weathermen? 1:20:15 RC: Well, I would just say, not misinformed, what was I, there is a word I am thinking of misguided. [chuckles] 1:20:25 SM: The Vietnam Veterans Against the War. 1:20:29 RC: Powerful. Powerful. They were among us. We had friends who came home from Vietnam and joined Vietnam Veterans Against the War and VVAW. And they walked alongside us, they were with us, they were shot at with us. I had one friend with his dog tags still around his neck, who survived the shooting at Kent said he was more afraid on May 4th than he ever was in Vietnam. So, they played a very significant role joining our protests and-and I think giving-giving credibility to the anti-war movement. 1:21:04 SM: How about the Young Americans for Freedom? I am not sure if you are aware of that group. 1:21:08 RC: I do not remember who they were. 1:21:10 SM: They were the conservative group that was against the war. 1:21:13 RC: I did not, I obviously, I think that now that you say that I do have a vague recollection of them. I did not pay much attention to them. I do not I do not remember having any experience with them. I do not remember them having a viable presence on the campus. I only remember hearing about them. And so, I felt detached from them. 1:21:33 SM: The enemies list? 1:21:36 RC: Oh, well, I would say we probably have a bigger one now. 1:21:43 SM: Abbie Hoffman- 1:21:46 RC: You know what? I have, I have a very positive reaction when I hear the name of Abbie Hoffman, because he and Jerry Rubin and the Yippies, and the Chicago Eight, I think did more to, for publicity. Did more to give a face and establish the humaneness to the anti-war movement. We were not just, you know, a bunch of radical, you know, to the cause. I mean, I think people always had a tendency to believe that anybody that protested was like the labor movement, the civil rights movement, just this group of people that had that had like, a single agenda, sort of thing. When, when the Yippies came on the scene and Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman and the Chicago A they brought humor to it, and they made people relate to it. You know, everybody knows what it means to be to be treated unfair, and to have things not make sense when someone tries to justify that unfairness. And I think nobody brought that to light more than Abbie Hoffman during the Chicago Eight trials. I mean, people who would never pay attention to anything involving both sides, reading and laughing and following what was going on there. And I think they are by learning things they otherwise might not have learned about. American injustice. 1:23:15 SM: That is amazing. Because just today when I interviewed Rennie, he talked about Abbie and in one of the MOBE events where they were facing 20- (audio cuts out). 1:23:28 RC: I mean it is like the whole Doonesbury, you know, that they play, you know, cartoonists, and then there are people will never read the front page about war, but they will read the cartoons and they will learn about the war. You know, Abbie, Abbie, played that role. [How Bout…] I think, I think brought a lot more people to the movement because of his humor and how he, you know, made it a human experience. And, you know, like, that, people were just so ruled by that with television sitcoms were so big at the time, whatever it became like watching a television sitcom every day. 1:24:02 SM: Right. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda? 1:24:07 RC: A perfect match for a perfect time. [chuckles] I, I admire both of them. I never understood Jane Fonda going the Christian route when she did, but you know, I remember the wonderful work she did with the winter soldiers. And I always admired Tom Hayden and I always saw him and Rennie as the intellectuals in the Chicago Eight. And I, I always I have, I have long admired Tom Hayden and his continued activism. And I just think that the time when he and Jane Fonda were working together was, was a very important time for two brilliant minds to work in concert. 1:24:50 SM: Yeah, I came to Kent State with those students from OU (Ohio University) the year that they came to Kent State, it goes the fourth anniversary [yeah], and I was in a room with them. They were walking around the campus, and we were in this small room, and I do not remember what building, but we were in there for an hour talk and they were great. The Black Panthers, which was Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Angela Davis, the Cleavers, Kathleen and Eldridge. Just your thoughts on black power and the black power movement. 1:25:18 RC: I will tell you I admired the Black Power movement when I moved to Boston right after May 4, the one because I stayed involved with, I left after Kent State and moved to Boston, with the intent to get away from politics. I was so disillusioned with what I just witnessed that I did not want to be part of anything political for a while. But the one organization that I visited, when I was sitting in Cambridge, I was walking down by the Charles River, and I saw the storefront for the Black Panther Party, and I went over there, because they had a profound impact on me in in understanding the plight of black Americans that that was much more serious than anything I have seen through the eyes of Martin Luther King. You know, I mean, I, I was always aware of the civil rights movement, and always impressed and inspired by those that follow Dr. King, but it was the Black Panther Party that showed us a darker side of racism in this country, and really illustrated, you know, how many blacks were being gunned down in their communities and the atrocities, you know, committed by the Oakland Police and it was a I was kind of educated when the Oakland Police came to recruit at Kent State. And SDS protested vehemently. That was my first exposure to the Black Panther Party and everything that they did in their neighborhoods, with their breakfast programs and their protection programs and whatever, to me, was every bit as impressive as everything I have seen in SDS 1:26:55 SM: Let us get straight into Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X. 1:27:01 RC: Oh, well, you know, they both played a very, very important role in the lives of African Americans because even though you know, there were most of the people followed Dr. Martin Luther King's advice about keeping protest peaceful and whatever, Malcolm X also legitimized, you know, protecting yourself and doing what, what is absolutely necessary to protect your family. And, you know, he, he put a face on government as a violent government in a way that Martin Luther King did not in his rhetoric. And, you know, I think that that was an important, that was important awareness to the edibility went one step further than Martin Luther King, because there were some that knew that they had grown more weary of, of just marching and petitioning. There were others that realize we have got to be a lot more proactive in meeting the man face to face. Malcolm X played that role. 1:28:03 SM: Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. 1:28:09 RC: Oh god, criminal-criminal, Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew laid the groundwork for the bloodshed at Kent and Jackson State, Nixon called campus protesters, Agnew called, likened us to Nazis and Klansmen. Okay, they inspired those to, inspired the rhetoric of Governor Reagan who said if these students want a bloodbath, let us get it over with then Governor Rhodes at, in Ohio. He said these are worse than the night riders and vigilantes. He is the worst type of people we harbor in America. It is over within Ohio. We are not going to treat the symptoms we are going to eradicate the problem. It began with Nixon and Agnew's dehumanizing us and treating us as, as what we would be seen as today as terrorists. And then with Reagan and Rhodes following suit, it was easy for armed gunman to come on our campus and not see us as idealistic youth, but to see us instead, as target and as an enemy in a combat situation. I blame them for the deaths at Kent state and Jackson State. 1:29:19 SM: Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara. 1:29:22 RC: Well, I had some very negative feelings, well negative feelings about both good feelings about Johnson when it came to civil rights, negative feelings about Johnson when it came to the Vietnam War. Negative feelings about Robert McNamara for living a lie as long as he did about the Vietnam War when he knew the truth that it was unwinnable. But when everyone was chastising him for coming out with the truth with his book later, when he admitted that, that people died for nothing in Vietnam, while other people were, were shunning him. I said, You know what, how many people have gone to their grave like Nixon and Agnew with the truth that they knew and never told that before, before they died, Robert McNamara could you know, truth at any time is valuable to me, truth at any time means something to me. And so, it was easier to forgive McNamara, because he owned up to his mind while he was still alive, so I have some respect for a man that I thought only was the same for many decades. 1:30:23 SM: The two Kennedy’s, John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. 1:30:25 RC: I love the Kennedy’s. I mean, for all the faults of John F. Kennedy that have come out in the history books since then. I do not ever remember being more inspired. And, you know, seeing I mean, I never saw the White House through those kinds of eyes until they were in there. They, it was a focus on family and focus on civil rights, a focus on America, the values of America that were always in our history books, and that seemed to disappear with his assassination. And then more so, even more so in the assassination of his brother, who I think was the better of the two. I still cannot watch films of Bobby Kennedy and seeing him riding on the train. I sobbed for days afterwards. Whenever I watch any live footage of Bobby speaking and campaigning, before he died. I was so I am so affected by it, it is too painful for me. 1:31:28 SM: Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. 1:31:32 RC: Oh, Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. Well, you know, they were there, it is hard to even say anything definitive about them. They were, I would say they were important candidates to the anti-war movement, because they were politicians who campaigned on anti, anti-war agendas. But I never felt that they were strong enough candidates, they all paled in comparison to the Kennedys. So that is all I remember, was never really feeling like we had to return to the strength of the candidates that we had before them. 1:32:10 SM: Timothy Leary. 1:32:13 RC: Oh, Timothy Leary. I worked at Harvard while he was still there. Now there was some- this guy's had a lot to do with painting the image of the Woodstock generation as just a bunch of drug crazed hippies. So, I do not know, to me he was just a Harvard professor who, who was played a significant role in branding the Woodstock generation as a generation where drug use was rampant, kind of delegitimize and seem to glorify that whole as the generation, psychedelic generation, so I, I do not see him as being political, even though he was part of the anti-war movement. I more associate him with drugs that would change. 1:33:10 SM: How about George Wallace and Ronald Reagan? 1:33:16 RC: George Wallace I think I think of him as a racist, still. Ronald Reagan, I see him as a joke. I never I do not know how people can continue to praise a presidency where maybe he as an individual did so little. Ronald Reagan was made out to be a great president, after his death by a right-wing media that decided to create an icon. So I see them both as. I think George Wallace was significant in in polarizing the south, and I see Reagan was significant, showing that we are our values. Our, our selectivity for president's presidential candidate was continuing to decline significantly 1:34:09 SM: Which leads into just Jerry Ford and Jimmy Carter. 1:34:13 RC: Jerry Ford, I just thing of Chevy Chase, when I think of Jerry Ford, my strongest recollections of Jerry Ford are tripping and falling and standing up at state dinners and on his own two feet still falling over. Jerry Ford was a pasty. Jerry Ford was president only because he agreed to pardon Nixon. He was a sellout and a cop out. And probably one of the worst presidents we have ever had. Who was the other one you just asked? Jimmy Carter. You know, he had the presidency at an awful time. I think he took the reins at a time when we were on the verge of a terrible recession. And I was living in New York at the time we were waiting in gas lines, and I think he is probably one of the most misunderstood presidents. And he was just like Reagan being defined after his presidency. Jimmy Carter really became the president that I think people hoped they were electing. Afterwards, I admire him tremendously for the work that he has done with Habitat for Humanity and world peace, promoting world peace, he is certainly deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize. And I was never more proud of him than when he was the first what was happening in Congress with calling Obama a liar, racism or the racism that was, I have, I have as much respect for him as one of the few- 1:35:40 SM: Daniel Ellsberg and Benjamin Spock. 1:35:45 RC: You know, I think of them as being again icons in the anti-war movement. Daniel Ellsberg. And he is when you think about the Pentagon Papers, and the role that they played, that was huge in bringing Middle America to understand what took Robert McNamara how long to tell the truth about that we were lying. We had done what we have come to do so well, today, lied America into an unjust war and sacrifice an entire generation of youth for that lie. Ellsberg Put his, his life and freedom on the line to get that truth, tremendous respect for him. And Benjamin Spock was, again, you know, when you have professional people like that, who have a good life and a good reputation, and then they create a whole new image of themselves as part of an anti-war movement. I think that was a bold response and he suffered a lot of criticism and was misunderstood a great deal. But again, like Abbie Hoffman, these are people that all were responsible for bringing a certain awareness from a certain segment of the population to the anti-war movement, they all played a part. 1:36:58 SM: That brings right into Daniel and Philip Berrigan, the Berrigan brothers and Barry Goldwater. 1:37:05 RC: I would say, Berrigans’, same as above, they played a significant role, and everybody has their part to play in the anti-war movement, but Barry Goldwater was probably one of the only republicans that that understood the danger of the kind of partisan politics that we see today. Because it was probably the last of the great Republicans who could work in a bipartisan way in Congress and who truly did see the danger of the military industrial complex, like Eisenhower was not as good a Republican, I do not think. But Barry Goldwater was a brilliant man and a humanitarian. And even though I have never ever in my life supported a Republican, I think he was one of the last ones that truly stood up to traditional republican values. 1:38:09 SM: How about John Dean? I am almost done. John Dean. 1:38:12 RC: John Dean, one of the greatest contributors, were it not for John Dean, I do not think we would know as much as the truth of Watergate that we do. And more importantly, is being at the heart of the Watergate scandal has done, has given him a perspective unlike any other Americans in how much more corrupt the Bush administration was, how much more they were able to get to get away with because they, they, you know, they could act, they did not have to worry about the tape that exposed Nixon, they made sure they went through the Republican National Committee with their secret email system that probably cost the life of what was his name, Mike McConnell, who died mysteriously in a plane crash in December, because he knew the extent of that it was called [inaudible]. Libyan underground communication system, but we know about-about Watergate, mostly because of John Dean's brilliant I mean, he is-he is a brilliant writer. He is a brilliant and-and probably one, what it is said that book that he just wrote, oh, “Conservatives without Conscience.” 1:39:04 SM: He wrote “Worse than Watergate too- 1:38:12 RC: He Wrote “Worse than Watergate,” which is very good, but his book “conservatives without conscience” more than any book I have ever read about republicans helped me to understand the difference between a Goldwater Republican Reagan Republican, Cheney Republican, and Bush Republicans. He knows theory and he know research on authoritarian personalities and the danger of having authoritarian personalities in positions of high office-office, where if you do not have a conscience, people will suffer and die and pay a huge price for your greed and corruption. And it made my blood went cold when I read his book because I realized the extent to which we had authoritarian personalities in high positions of office in the Bush administration. John Dean is, I was, I would campaign for him for President if he were ever to run. 1:40:31 SM: He lives in California. I think right now, but he comes to DC a lot. 1:40:36 RC: I think he may, he may be one of the most brilliant critical writers of our time. 1:40:40 SM: You know, he is from Binghamton, New York. 1:40:42 RC: One with-with more insight into the inner workings of government than anybody. He should be on. It should be on any advisory staff in the White House. 1:40:52 SM: But he is good. I have seen him on TV. The women, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan. 1:41:00 RC: You know what, all these women played a role in legitimizing women in positions of power, women in positions of influence. You know, I mean when I think of Bella Abzug, I think of her hat. But I also really think of just, I mean, I have never seen a woman with-with so much strength and-and could just to speak off the cuff like that, you know, I mean, she was just, it was a mover and a shaker. You know, Gloria Steinem did a lot for the women's movement and continues to write, I think, some pretty brilliant treatises on, on the role of women, I was so glad to see her coming out. With I think Gloria Steinem take on women, and the role of women in politics in particular, is exactly what we have seen the opposite of what Sarah Palin. 1:41:53 SM: Oh, yes, 1:41:54 RC: we need we need more analysis so that women understand when they are being misled by men to use token women to convey a man's message. There is no question in my mind. For example, the Sarah Palin is today the Stepford wife of Dick Cheney. 1:42:13 SM: [laughter] Now that is another magic moment. 1:42:16 RC: There is no question about it. Because, Cheney, if you notice, as soon as Obama was elected, he came out, and he kept talking, he went, he made his rounds on all the talk shows, and then everybody was kind of laughing at him, like, “go away Dick, your policies were voted out.” So then, mysteriously, he started using his daughter, his gay daughter, and who's the other one, Liz? Liz Cheney. 1:42:40 SM: Yes-yes. She is on TV a lot. Yeah. 1:42:44 RC: It is like, where do these women come from, they were never spokesperson for the Republican Party or for any political agenda. They were never political. But suddenly, they had all of these talking points. And it was like, I truly believe in, and logic tells me this and everything I am seeing tells this, Dick Cheney spent eight years using George Bush for his talking points. So, all he had left was two girls in his family that he could put out there. And then, they say right before the right before and right after Sarah Palin gave up her governorship, she was on the phone with Cheney. I think it was orchestrated by Cheney; I think he was educating her. I think he was handing her, her talking points. I think he was- he was behind everything. Every single- everything she was doing all these things, and still trying to run the country [indecipherable] still be a significant following of women [indecipherable]- 1:43:49 SM: What, what do you see in the two Boomer presidents that are that are linked to the qualities of boomers and that is Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. 1:43:59 RC: Oh, I have never thought of George W. Bush as a boomer is that terrible. I have always seen him as this. Otherworldly. Bill Clinton is brilliant. I always say his wife, is the more brilliant of the two. When I read her book, “Living History.” I imagine what it must have been like for her the second time he sat down on her bed and said we have to talk about his ridiculous, you know, discretion with you know, women are not weak in that way. I am sorry. I have to say it, a spade a spade here. You do not see women leaders experiencing the shortcomings when it comes to setting, you know, women discretions, as we have seen with governors and-and people like Bill Clinton, you know, who risk so much in there, he was doing such important work. And he was effecting such important change, that he did not know how easy it would be to fall. If it were known those kinds of indiscretions in the White House and such, you know, in a public place like that, that I think somebody like a Hillary knows that and understands that, and I am not I do not need to minimize it to it just being a point of who is stronger. That is not succumbing to sexual pressure and advances in temptation. But in reading about their political walk together, she always struck me as the more knowledgeable, the more decisive, the more inquisitive, and the more strong, person between the two, but you know, things being a as they may, women were not seen in the same light as men. And so, he was the one elected unfortunately, rather than her, I think it would have been a different America, had she got into the White House before him. And I will support her when she runs next. So, I have a lot of respect for Bill Clinton, I lost a lot of respect for him because he just was so stupid about little things that overshadowed his brilliance on such big things. But George W. Bush is not a self-made man. He is a father, you know, he is a Bush family made. man. He is an idiot. He cannot string two sentences together. I do not think he had an original idea when he was in the White House. And I think that he did not win either election. I think both of them were stolen and he was a pasty of Dick Cheney the whole time. This was all the neoconservative dogfight, Dick Cheney, all of those people from the original PNAC, you know, Progress for New American Century, ran our government for eight years. And George Bush was their patsy. 1:46:44 SM: Down to my last two questions. One is the books of the year, when you were in college, were you or were any of your peers’ reading books that had an influence on you? Were there authors or- 1:46:57 RC: You know, authors that had a tremendous influence on me were Bernard Shaw, I remember when my brothers got their draft notices, as I was reading a lot of what Bernard Shaw was saying, just to understand the historical context for the war in Vietnam, when I actually started to imagine my brothers being sent off to Southeast Asia to fight, I kind of wanted to know where it all began, I knew that I wanted to do the play a part in keeping them from going, but I also knew the importance of knowing what I was talking about. Because even as I said, I was against the war, I was really only saying I was against my brother's going, and I was not able to articulate a reason why. And so, I remember reading a lot of things by Bernard Shaw, but I would say, without question, it was a lot of what was happening in the papers, the newspapers were a critical part of my, of my newspapers and television were a critical part of my growing sense of dissatisfaction with the war with my growing awareness of the wrongness of it. And I really do believe that the Chicago Seven Trials, eventually the Chicago Eight Trials were instrumental, those books, like “do it” and feel this book. Again, were very, very, they were fun to read. And they were inspirational. They made it seem not just important to be part of the movement, but fun and cool. To be part of the movement- 1:48:26 SM: Particularly when, when remember when Jerry Rubin went in, into the bank. 1:48:31 RC: Yeah. 1:48:32 SM: Yeah, he wanted to go to the bathroom. And they said, you get out of here, and he went right in the middle of the bank. [laughter] 1:48:38 RC: I know, and people laugh at that, and they become heroes for dropping out and, you know, turning on as they said, and so I would say that those were very important influence. 1:48:53 SM: The last question I have because we have been talking about the (19)60s and the (19)70s and everything afterwards but the (19)50s and you mentioned about you know, being around your parents and the labor union talking at the dinner table and everything but what kind of an influence did the (19)50s have on you it was portrayed as the era where the World War II generation want give everything to their kids because they grew up in the depression and then they went through war and they wanted the kids to have everything many of them are boomers were the first ones to ever go to college. People, we watched television, the black and white TV, we watched Howdy Doody, Rootie Kazootie and all the kids, the TV shows and everything about family and seemed like everybody was happy and-and then of course, the Mickey Mouse Club and TV westerns and of course we have read about those in recent years how been the good guys and the bad guys and we have portrayed to a lot of the boomers and the Indians being the bad guys, but just your overall. Well, how did the (19)50s shape you, you know, and I have always wondered that because you got to talk about the (19)50s when you were talking about boomers. 1:50:07 RC: Well, I had to stay at home mom, like most of the kids. You know, I, I went to school in Barberton, a working-class town where it was, it was an anomaly if anybody's mother work. I used to- I remember saying to my mother, what, you know, I am so proud that you were a nurse, why do not you go back into nursing, I would have been very, very proud to have a working mother, but she said, no, your father wants me to stay home with the kids. My mother never drove a car, I had to sneak to take drivers training, so that I could drive a car, because my father believed that women shouldn't drive cars and his answer was always your mother does not drive, you do not need to drive. So, you know, I not only had that very personal influence that women's places in the home and women do not have mobility upward or even outward, they have to rely on a man to get around they have to rely on a man for everything. But I also had, you know, the influence of television which you know, had the- you know, Ward Cleaver and-and June you know, where even when it came to making important decisions about the children or the home, it was always “wait till your father gets home,” she could never decide anything for herself Ward had to always kind of put everything into perspective. And he was the intelligent one. And even the few role models that I had, like on Sky King, you know, you had Penny, who also could fly but of course, she had to, you know, rely on-on, you know, her uncle for whenever things got tough. So, women could, women could be involved in things, but they could not run things. And for the most part, I grew up in, I, we lived right next door to the high school. And so, my greatest aspirations were not to be the valedictorian of my school, even though I was in gifted classes from the time I was in fourth grade, but to be what look like television wanted us to be, you know, with the Miss America pageant, showing that we are supposed to be pretty and complacent. And so American and I would always sit on my porch and watch the girls arriving for prom and homecoming with their gowns and watch the cheerleaders practicing and the major at marching. You know, with that sizing, when I first went off that can say that I wanted to just be an extension of what I was in high school, I tried out for cheerleader Kent State. I tried out for the [inaudible], I instantly got involved in social activities. And I was the social chairman for my dorm, planning the rowboat regatta and passing out lollipops and roses to the tune of Burt Bacharach with my brother and his friends came marching through Lake Hall, honest to God, “champion 1234 we do not want your fucking war.” And I called my brother just devastated: How could you do that? You ruined my moment. You know, we are playing Burt Bacharach and passing lollipops and roses, talking to little sisters and they are talking, you know, throwing the F bomb and talking about war. And, you know, I desperately in the first year at Kent State hung on to that upbringing and that stereotype that I was conditioned to become a mindless, you know, complacent girl who, you know, even if I had the presence of mind to get myself to college, I was only going to be a teacher or a secretary or a librarian, you know, and I certainly was not going to be an anti-war activist or have thought of my own. 1:53:33 SM: Very well said, I had no more questions. Is there a question that I did not ask that you thought I might ask? 1:53:43 RC: I had no idea that I had no idea what you are writing or what you are looking for. I just responded saying that I can, with far, far more words than I prefer. But so, I hope you'll choose the best. And not make me look like a long-winded attorney- 1:53:58 SM: No, it is all every see, every interview has been different. And sometimes I do not even ask all the same questions in each of the interviews. So, you are the 85th person and then Alan. Alan, I actually interviewed him a little bit when he was at Westchester University, but he was, it was 30 minutes and then he had to go to dinner with us. And so, then that so- (End of Roseann Chic Canfora’s Interview) (Start of Alan Canfora’s Interview) 1:53:58 SM: The first question I want to ask and first off, thanks again for agreeing to be interviewed. What was it in your personal background? You are growing up years in the (19)50s. Was there something that happened in your life that made you become an activist? Was there something even before what happened at Kent State? 1:54:51 AC: I think I became a compassionate person because of my father and my mother. They were both World War II veteran my father lost his right eye in an accident in the Philippine Islands at age 19 when he was in the army, and he then went into a hospital, ultimately Battle Creek, Michigan, where he met my mother, she was an Army nurse. My father became a union organizer and leader starting in the 1950s, that your aerospace in Akron where he was a union worker at Goodyear. He became active in the liberal movement as a union organizer and activist. But then he went on to the Barberton city council as a democratic City Councilman in 1964. I think I gained some compassion from my mother, who was a nurse, and political activism from my father, who was a union organizer and a liberal democratic politician. 1:55:47 SM: How did you pick Kent State? Did you were you thinking of other colleges or knew was that the one was always on your mind? 1:55:54 AC: Well, I went to Kent State because it is nearby in my hometown of Barberton and where I still live. It is about 13 miles to the east. And most of my high school friends were all going to Akron University, which is about maybe five miles away. So, I wanted to get away from my high school friends, and they wanted to go someplace new. So, I really chose Kent State also, because I had attended some basketball games there. While I was in high school on some high school, regional and district championship basketball games. I thought it was a beautiful campus and a lovely little city. And that was another reason I chose again- 1:56:35 SM: What was your major there? 1:56:37 AC: Well, I started out as a prelaw major, and then I transferred into education and business. I made a few changes concerning my major and then I finally ended up with a bachelor's degree of general studies. No major. 1:56:56 SM: Besides your parents, who were obviously role models, did you have any political figures or historical figures from your readings in high school or that you really looked up to? Like that may have been mentors as well? 1:57:11 AC: Can you repeat the question please? 1:57:13 SM: Were there, when you were in high school or when you were young, were there any other mentors like either historical figures or political leaders or people you read about when you were young that inspired you? 1:57:24 AC: Well, no doubt John F. Kennedy, President Kennedy inspired me. My family visited Washington. Soon after he was elected. Around 1961, we went on a vacation to Washington, and we stood outside the White House, and we idolized President Kennedy, before and after he was assassinated. But I think his assassination in particular, had an impact on me to follow in my father's footsteps. Later on, that my dad became a city councilor in 1964, shortly after President Kennedy was killed, and I always paid attention to politics. For example, in 1957, my earliest political memory is kneeling at the side of my bed praying, that Adlai Stevenson would defeat Dwight Eisenhower for president in 1956. [oh my gosh] Actually, yeah, and because my dad was always a Democrat, and I can remember he was watching the presidential conventions in 56 and 60 and 64. So I was always very political minded. And I really prefer the democrats greatly over the Republicans, always My father always said to me that the worst democrat is better than the best Republicans. And I took that to heart. I just kind of idolized the Democratic politicians. But on the on the literary side, I also started reading a lot of Edgar Allan Poe, when I was around in the seventh grade. And so, I read a lot about Edgar Allan Poe, and I read a lot about his life. And I always thought that I would like to be a writer. Try to write in the style of Edgar Allan Poe. And so, I was fascinated by his style of writing. 1:59:08 SM: When you think you know, this is mostly a lot about the boomers and the (19)60s and (19)70s. But, you know, the boomers when they were in their elementary school years, it was the (19)50s. And was there something during the (19)50s besides your parents now, how important was television in your life? in those early years when you were in elementary school, particularly with the television shows there were so many westerns on television at that time? Well with the good guy and the bad guy and the bad guy was always being the Native American or the Indian. But then we had Howdy Doody and the-the Mouseketeers. Was there anything- it almost seems like, and I liked your perception on this, that it was children were so protected by their parents during the (19)50s. Even though we were going through the Cold War, it seemed like such a happy time. Your thoughts on that? 2:00:03 AC: Yes, I think the (19)50s were very enjoyable years for my family. My father had a very good job as a union worker at goodyear, he had a good paycheck and good health benefits. We were living in a house that my parents were buying downtown Barberton, the backyard was a double size compared to all the other lots in downtown Barberton. And so, we had a huge backyard, where we were constantly playing baseball, and football and then we would go down to the playground to play basketball during the fall months. So constantly, we were playing sports. Now at the same time. We did spend a lot of time indoors watching television, and also going to the movies, the movie theater was only about three or four blocks away, it cost a nickel or a dime to get in. And we had walked down there, the streets in Barberton and were very safe to just walk around everywhere. It was a town of about 33,000. It was most industrialized city in Ohio per capita, a lot of factories, and most of my friends or parents or fathers worked in factories as mine did. So, it was an idyllic childhood. Really, I have no complaints whatsoever. But we go to the movies all the time. And I can remember seeing the movie High Noon and a lot of monster movies and a lot of cartoons, very enjoyable weekends going to the movie theaters, but during the week we watch a lot of television. Yes, we watched the Mickey Mouse Club. I remember in the (19)50s and (19)60s also watching a lot of Band Stand, American Band Stand, which stimulated by music, my interest in music and my parents always had on the radio WHAR radio in Akron, which is where Alan Freed had his radio show broadcast his first rock and roll program on the radio. In fact, he coined the term rock and roll. And my parents were very much into rock and roll they loved it. They would often jitterbug around in the living room. My parents were good dancers. And so, we just had constantly had music playing we had the TV on but in particular, I think the Mickey Mouse Club stands out a lot of cowboy TV shows but also, American Bandstand. We love to watch the young people of Philadelphia dancing on TV. And that was a lot of fun. 2:02:15 SM: When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 2:02:20 AC: Well, in the early (19)60s, I remember before the Beatles we had a lot of the American bands, would refer to the girl groups, the Shirelles, the Shangri La's, bands like that. We used to sit there in my junior high school classes. We would go to lunch, and they would play music at noon, and the girls would go on the gym floor dancing around to this music. And I just remember, you know, starting to take an interest in girls, I was very popular in school I along with my sister, we were both in the major Work Program, which was for the intellectually advanced classes, the gifted program they call it, so we went to the same schools with the, you know, the regular students who were all our friends and my sister was very popular. And so, as I and we have, you know, we have participated in school functions, I was always on different sports teams and, but I played baseball professionally, I was the captain of the Little League All Star team. One of the best players in the league, I was not only on the all-star team, but I was the captain of the all-star game when I was 12. And then I, I played Little League Baseball when I was 10, 11 and 12. And then when I was 13, 14 and 15, I play what they call senior Little League Baseball. I was by the time I was 15 for that league, I was also the captain of the all-star team there. So, I had leadership skills. I look back on it. Now of course, I am a political leader in my hometown. I am the chairman of the Democratic Party for the last 17 years. But I think I really did learn my leadership skills as a baseball player on the baseball diamonds. I remember I remember a lot of playing baseball, attending elementary school, junior high school, the I remember the launch in elementary school, the launch of the satellites and the Sputniks and all that that really created a big interest in my mind concerning science. And I had a great interest in that all through my school year, as well as both during-during junior high, then the Beatles, of course came when I was in ninth grade the British Invasion of music and that had a big impact on the instead of letting my hair grow a little bit long I think 1964, (19)65 trying to copy the Beatles and of course, we listened to all the Beatle albums, we knew all the words and everybody was just fascinated by the British music but also when the Rolling Stones started playing I started gravitating more liking the Rolling Stones more than the Beatles and that was kind of unusual in my hometown. Everybody else heard the Beatles. I kind of like the bad boys and the Rolling Stones. 2:04:46 SM: Is there is there one specific event and I remember I said ask this to your sister yesterday and-and I know that what happened on May 4th is probably the most, the biggest event in your life but when you think of, is there one specific event in your life that had the greatest influence on you before what happened at Kent State? 2:05:10 AC: I cannot think of one, Steve No, quite honestly, I think it was just kind of, I am trying to think of the proper word here. I mean, I had a very colorful and eventful life, a very enjoyable life. I Just cannot think of one, no. 2:05:29 SM: One of the things over the years and you have watched television, you are up to date on politics. In 1994, when Newt Gingrich came into power, and republicans came into power, I can remember him commenting on the (19)60s in the (19)70s, and really attacking the entire boomer generation, he loved, he loved to do that. George Will done quite often in his written articles, anytime he can get a shot back at the boomer generation. And basically, what they are saying is that the breakdown of American society all happened because of what happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Regarding the drug culture, problems between blacks, blacks and whites in America, the lack of respect for authority, all the break or divorce rate, permissive society, not trusting anybody in positions of responsibility. So, your comments on the Gingrich’s and the George Wills who, anytime they have a chance they are going to shoot back to that period and really condemn the boomers. 2:06:33 AC: Well Steve, I understand perfectly what you are saying, of course, you are referring to the culture wars, 2:06:36 SM: Right? 2:06:38 AC: People, these conservatives, these republicans, they love to rewrite history, in a distorted way, they are revisionist, in the worst sense of the word. They can focus on the negative aspects of the (19)60s. And I know David Horowitz is the lead cheerleader in that regard. But I would like to point out that we also had in the (19)50s, in the (19)60s, gross racism, sexism was rampant, homophobia reigned supreme, those were primitive years in our culture. And for some people in the 1950s and (19)60s, it was starting, I think, with Elvis, and starting with rock and roll in the (19)50s, that young people started to take a stand and blaze their own trail. And this really perturbed conservatives and people like Newt Gingrich and people like George, well, it wish- it was still Ozzie and Harriet in America forever, but those days are gone. People stood up, people blaze their own trail, they started listening to their own music, wearing their own clothing. And the young people in particular, led the way in forging the new cultural traditions in America. And the people that prefer the old 1930s, (19)40s, and (19)50s, the primitive conservative religious culture, those years are gone. And they are upset about that. And they always complain. And it is too bad for them, because those years are gone forever. Now, you did ask me about one event that did change my opinion in the 1960s. And I do remember, you kind of caught me off guard there for a moment, but I would like to say what I think entirely changed my path was, as I mentioned, I always watched the convention, the political convention. Not much the republicans but the democrats starting in 1956, (19)60s, (19)64. Well, let me say, Steve, in 1968, when I was sitting in my parents living room on Newell Street in downtown Barberton, and I was 19 years old. I was I had just finished my first year of college, and I was watching the Democratic Convention. And I saw 1000s of students beaten in the streets of Chicago. Live on television, I was shocked. I was appalled. I knew there was going to be a demonstration there I read about in the newspapers. But I was completely overwhelmed with anger. When I saw those Chicago policemen crushing the skulls of the young boys and girls in Chicago, I will never forget the feeling that I had that. I knew at that moment, I was going to join those protests, I was turning against the war in Vietnam, in a very slow way, in an evolutionary sort of way. During my first year in college, another significant event, yes, I do remember this one. I was sitting in one of my first political science classes as a freshman. And the professor was talking about the war in Vietnam almost every day and in a negative way he was he was against the war in Vietnam. And so were several of the students in the class. Most of the students in the class were like me just sitting there listening, trying to absorb this new information, which we never considered before, antiwar opinions and believe me when I was in Barberton, until I graduated from high school, I never heard a single person object to the war in Vietnam, not one. And I was for the war in Vietnam. I totally supported our troops and the government. I never thought for a minute the government would do anything against the interests of our people. That was how naive and trusting that I was because of my upbringing. With my mother and father both being World War II veterans, loving our country and loving the military, I was not against the military or government at all. Until my freshman year when I started hearing, my political science professor and some, a few of my fellow students are passionately arguing against the war. And one day this this one young kid in the class said, during his opinion statements he was making that day, he looked around the classroom and he goes, for example- [audio cuts] I will never forget that moment. And I was, I felt days, because I had never considered whether or not I was going to make up my own mind about Vietnam. I love my government, the newspapers, my teachers, my parents, I let others think for me until that day, and I really was done. I remember, I walked out of that classroom after the class was over, I walked out to my car, which was a 1957 Chevy. And I sat in my car for about 15 minutes. in kind of a dazed state, thinking, oh, my God, I have to think for myself, I have to make up my mind about this important issue of war in Vietnam. I was thinking about my friends who were over there at the time, my schoolmates, my baseball, fellow baseball players and others who were in Vietnam at that time. And that was 1967 in October, I believe. I was greatly changed by that one particular day in my political science class, where I realized I had to start thinking for myself. And then from there on out after that, after, during the fall of (19)67, the winter of (19)68, going into the spring of (19)68, I was evolving, slowly, letting my hair grow longer, still listening to a lot of rock and roll music, and starting to change my opinions about the war in Vietnam. In 1968, in August, when I saw the Democratic Convention, that was it, that was the that was the determining factor, which really compelled me then to decide to join the antiwar movement. And as fate would have it, the next month after the Democratic Convention was when I moved into the dormitory on the Kent State campus, a campus address in Johnson Hall. And two weeks later, I did join the campus SDS. 2:12:21 SM: Very well put, it leads right into my next question. And if you were, I asked this to your sister yesterday too. If you were in an auditorium at Kent State University, and with a with a group of boomer generation, student people who had gone to college at that particular time from all over the country. So, it is not just Kent State, it is that students from other parts of the country. And do you, they were asked what is the one event that may have shaped their lives more than any other? And this is thinking outside the box even beyond you, what would you think most boomers would say? 2:12:59 AC: I say they probably say the war in Vietnam. I think they might, they might say the assassination of President Kennedy. Well, and I really do believe my own heart. I think it was the assassination of President Kennedy. That event does stand out. Also, as far as your earlier question. I remember, I was in ninth grade, I was sitting in my Latin class at Highland junior high school, November 22, 1963, when suddenly the loudspeaker came on. Without any introductory comment by the school officials. It just went right to a radio broadcast from Dallas, Texas, announcing the President Kennedy had been shot. And then a few minutes later, then President Kennedy was dead. My Latin teacher, Mrs. Barker, burst into tears in front of our class, she was sitting at her desk. And she said to our class, you young people, remember this day, she says, I have seen things like this before in the past, she goes, suddenly history changes, events change, politics changes. She says you do not know what is coming. She goes, I do not know what is coming. But she said, I think this is going to mark a great change for the worst for our country. And she was sobbing. [wow] So that had a big effect on me when I was sitting there at age 15. 2:14:22 SM: When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes? And what would you believe was the watershed moment? 2:14:29 AC: The 1960s? I would say two things. The assassination of President Kennedy and the Chicago convention of 1968. [agreement] 2:14:38 SM: Describe the qualities that you, you are a boomer but obviously you-you have seen your generation as they have grown older, because now the oldest boomers are 62 years old, hard to believe first year that some of them are getting Social Security. What do you think are the some of the greatest strengths of the boomers and what are their weaknesses? If you were to look at the generation? 2:15:02 AC: I think some of the strengths of the baby boomer generation include the courage that our generation showed to take the stand against the primitive conservative morality of our parent’s generation. You know, we respect our parents, we respect their generation, because they survived the war. They survived the Great Depression. They triumphed in World War Two, but at the same time, they clung to a conservative, religious, primitive, backward morality. And I think we resented that. So, we had to show courage and blaze our own trail, with new music, new culture, new clothing styles. And so that required a great deal of courage. And we paid a price for that, especially those of us who grew our hair longer and took a stand against the government about racism or the war in Vietnam. Very often, we suffered government or police repression. And still, we persevered. And so, I think that is another good trait of our generation, we have great perseverance in the face, in the face of great opposition from the government, from the church, and from the police, and the military. We persevered, and we stood strong against racism, against poverty, against the war in Vietnam. And I really think that the achievement of our generation stopping the war in Vietnam, I do not think I exaggerate. And I do not know how many people agree with me, but I think it was probably one of the greatest achievements in the history of the twentieth century, when you think about it, the power and the might of the greatest military operation in the world, the United States government military, that the citizens of our country brought that to a stop, we stopped the military draft, we stopped the criminal war in Vietnam. I think that is a tremendous achievement of the 1960s generation, but often overlooked in history books. But, of course, because the history books are generally written by conservative individuals trying to preserve the old order. But I think that stopping the, I think, also the civil rights movement of our generation, in particular, our African American brothers and sisters, they deserve a great deal of credit for taking a stand in the streets of the South, especially where there was such fierce and violent opposition people like Martin Luther King, people who were from the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, the white students who supported them and the Students for a Democratic Society. That is the group that I joined, at Kent State, I think so these organizations and these leaders and these individuals stood strong. And it made a huge difference in the history of our country. Can you hang on a second Steve? I have got a call; let me call you back after I get off. 2:17:49 SM: Do you have my phone number? 2:17:50 AC: Yes, I do. 2:17:52 SM: When we were talking last time, you were answering halfway through a question on the strengths and weaknesses of the boomer generation. You had just talked about their strengths in pretty much detail. What are some of the weaknesses within the boomer generation in your eyes? 2:18:08 AC: You mean nowadays or back then? 2:18:10 SM: Back then and if you are disappointed in, let me get into the next question after that, which is, have you been disappointed in, in the boomer generation as they approached now senior citizen status? 2:18:25 AC: Well, I think one of the weaknesses of our generation back in the day was we had youthful excesses, both politically and socially. And culturally, basically, because we were blazing a new trail of our own, without any kind of a serious precedent within memory. We made a great break from our parent’s generation, even though we were anti fascists, as they were like, for example, during World War Two, our parents’ generation took a very principled and proud stand against fascism. Unfortunately, some of us well, we had to do the same thing during the Vietnam War. And when our government was going in a criminal wrongful direction, and we had to take a stand against our own government, we thought our government was becoming fascistic. So, we took a stand against them. And I think we did that very well. We helped stop the war in Vietnam. And we helped to bring great changes socially and culturally in our country, and politically. But I think, among those weaknesses, because we were blazing a new trail, and we did not have any kind of a previous example to build upon. I think there were some excesses with drug abuse, which is regrettable. We had learned the hard way we were, one friend of mine said we were kind of like a bunch of guinea pigs back at that time. And we had to learn the hard way sometimes about that stuff. And I think there was some excesses in that regard. And also, I think, politically, for example, some of the tendencies were a bit extreme in the political movement, the anti-war movement because we were too idealistic, which is natural for younger people to be excessively idealistic, but it was, had some bad effects. For example, the Weatherman and the some of the other political tendencies were a bit extreme and out of the mainstream and did not build a mass movement, did not unite broadly with the masses of the people and I think it is regrettable. And other examples of that, but I think for the most part, our generation, I think the plus, the minus the, far outweigh the minuses. moment, hang on, I have another call. 2:21:04 SM: Okay. We finished with that particular question, or that- 2:21:09 AC: was finished with that part. But I was going to talk about the current feelings about our generation nowadays. 2:21:15 SM: Yes, definitely. 2:21:17 AC: I think that, as our generation matured, unfortunately, many of us forgot the lessons of Vietnam, and left behind our activism that we felt so passionately during the Vietnam War, once the war was over too many from our generation, regressed politically and socially, socially. And seems that too many of us just took a stand once against the war in Vietnam and did not remain politically aware and active. That is one big regret that I feel. But at the same time, even though we did elect a progressive president, like Barack Obama in 2008, I think it was very shameful that our generation chose George W. Bush, as a president to represent the baby boomer generation for the first time. That was a very regrettable choice. Too many people from our generation were deceived by the republican lies and propaganda. And they fell into a big trap by George W. Bush and our country paid a very fair price. But that was one great regret that I feel about our generation. 2:22:15 SM: How do you respond to people who say when well, the reason why the Vietnam War really ended was because mothers and fathers in the Midwest realize that their sons, sons, and few daughters are coming home from war in caskets, as opposed to and lessening the role that college students played in ending the war. And your comment on the role that college students actually played in this. You know, against the war itself. And if they played, what was the major reason why we the war ended? 2:22:52 AC: [Cough] well sure I think that college students played a huge role. But not the only role. It was true that there were businesspeople against the war, mothers against the war, grandmothers. a broad range of people oppose that war. And that really, that is a broad movement did help to end the war. But I do not think you should emphasize one segment of the antiwar movement over the other, except to say that among the students, it was our generation during the war in Vietnam that protested more vigorously than any other generation in American history, there is no doubt about it, that the-the peak the pinnacle, the high point of student activism occurred in May of 1970, for example, when the national students break occurred, after the Kent State massacre and Richard Nixon's invasion of Cambodia, almost 5 million students protested, over 800 colleges and universities shut down. And it was a tremendous tidal wave of protests that swept across the country, forcing Nixon not only to pull the troops out of Cambodia within six weeks, but also to help to bring the war in Vietnam to a more hasty conclusion. So, I think it is wrong to minimize the role of students, but it is also wrong to exaggerate that role and say that it was the only segment of the antiwar movement. 2:24:08 SM: I do not think I asked before but I, I, I talked to something like Boomer friends, even in the past year, and they still feel that the most unique generation in American history, they have not changed, even up to age 61, 62. And, of course, when I was on the college campus, I was on a different campus then you were. there was this feeling of the unity of togetherness that we are one that we can change the world. And there was a feeling that there was a uniqueness within this generation, your feelings on the attitudes that boomers had about being unique number one than and whether they were unique. Number two. 2:24:46 AC: I think that is true. For example, among the counterculture movement, the hippies, the longhairs. These were young people that were really trying to rebel against the old order, against the government against the war. Against conservative morality. And I think as a result, we were under attack by the government, and by the conservatives and older people who misunderstood there was a serious generation gap. We were under attack by the police and the government. So, it is kind of forced us to circle our wagons and feel a great sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. And I think that was one of the most beautiful aspects of our earlier time together as a generation. So, I think that that is definitely true. 2:25:31 SM: You mentioned already about that one of your disappointments in the boomer generation was their inability to carry on their idealism into as they got older. And, of course, a lot of it. You know, some people always say that that is always takes place in any generation, because of the fact that, you know, as you get older, you do not have as much energy or time. But barring that, what-what are your thoughts on the impact that boomers have had on their kids, and now grandchildren, because now 85 percent of all the college students are actually the sons and daughters of generation Xers, which are those born after (19)64. And it is the next generation sending their kids to college. But there is still about 15 percent, who are boomers who hit children late. So, there is still a lot of Boomer parents, but mostly they are heading into grandparent hood, just your thoughts on the impact they have had on them with respect to activism and sharing the experiences they went through and seeming caring, caring like they had when they were young? Just your thoughts? 2:26:38 AC: Well, I think first of all, it should be pointed out that many people from our generation continues to be progressive, not everybody abandoned their youthful idealism. For example, quite a few people from our generation became union leaders, Democratic Party officials and activists, leaders in the fields of journalism and computer science. And so, in the news media, so I think our generation continued to have a very broad impact, not everybody abandoned their political ideals. And I think in a positive sort of a way, we have changed the world. Now as for the younger generations of children and grandchildren, I think that does. For example, we are not nearly so conservative politically or morally. Religion, for example, does not dominate our culture, as it did back in the 1950s. And (19)60s, many people are rejecting the conservative force, morality, their religion tried to foist upon people wrongfully. And so, I think you can see that now, throughout our culture. For example, in Ohio, one out of every six citizens now say that they are not religious at all. And so, I think you can see that the-the legacy of the 1960s is a very profound and very positive, I think, in our society. And that has got to have had an effect, there must have been an effect on the children and the grandchildren. 2:27:57 SM: So, a lot, you know, depending on who you talk to a lot of colleges are very proud of today's college students, millennials, because they are somewhat, sometimes they compare them to the World War II generation, which was they kind of shun over the boomers and the silent generation. And that is because the current college students have already been interviewed by whatever, high school or whatever, and they want to leave a legacy. But they, the one question that comes up is that they want to leave the legacy when they are 40. Not when they are 21. They want to raise kids get a job. But they do care about other things. And of course, the boomers at that when they were young, they wanted to do it immediately. I do not know if you have any thoughts on that. 2:28:41 AC: I was like Jim Morrison used to saying we want the world we want to know that is how we felt back at that time. We were impatient because it was our generation that was under attack and Vietnam and by the military draft and by the police, and the government. But we did want to change we wanted it quickly because we were literally under attack. Now as time passed by the Vietnam War ended, and the government mellowed, and the people of America became more accepting of the counterculture and people that maybe looked or acted a little bit differently. So, I think that times have changed, and I think they have changed for the better. 2:29:16 SM: This is some question I want to read to you because it has to deal with the issue of healing. Do you feel boomers are still having problems with healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, divisions between black and white divisions between those who support authority and those who criticized it, divisions between those who supported the troops and those who did not? We know the wall in Washington DC for the Vietnam Memorial has helped the divisions within the Vietnam veteran generation. But there is still a question about whether it has done much for the nation itself. Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to their grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking After 40 years, or is the statement Time heals all wounds the truth? I say this Alan because we took students to see senator muskie before he passed away about a year and a half, when I was working at Westchester University, and we asked this very same question to him thinking that he will talk about 1968, the Democratic Convention and the tremendous divisions and he paused for about a minute. And then he responded by saying, it is we have not healed since the Civil War. And he went on to explain the divisions between North and South and the-the coming together and Gettysburg and how they never really truly healed. Do you think there is a problem with healing within the boomer generation? Or am I just imagining this? 2:30:47 AC: Well, I think it depends on how you look at it. My perspective is there has been a great deal of healing. For example, nowadays, you see very few people who are still hardcore, pro Vietnam War, who think that we could have won that war, we should have won that war, although there are a few of those people. Based on my experience, after over 10 years now of having my own internet websites, and having quite a few people contact me by email, I think I have my hand on the pulse pretty good here. Very well, here. Rather, there are still a few conservative Vietnam veterans who remain very angry. And I think those people probably never will become deals. On the other hand, I think the vast majority of Vietnam veterans, in the vast majority of people who mistakenly supported that war in Vietnam, I think very few of those people still hold to their wrong ideas. Most people now understand the war in Vietnam was a terrible, tragic error, that are 58,000 of our young people died for no good reason, and that it was avoidable, it should not have happened. So, I think there has been a great deal of healing and many people who support the war in Vietnam. In fact, I think most people who supported the war, and who supported President Nixon now see those events and those conservative people who were pro war as wrong. So, I think there has been a great deal of healing. But on the other hand, amongst some hardcore conservatives, and you do find some people in the modern Republican Party, and the conservative movement who are revisionist in their thinking, they always try to rewrite history in a wrongful way they tried to exacerbate or exaggerate the divisions and keep those divisions alive. But I think most people are doomed to failure. 2:32:27 SM: It is interesting, because Barney Frank, you know, the congressman from Massachusetts, wrote a book, maybe about in the mid (19)90s, called “speaking, frankly”. And in that book, he said, the Democratic Party was basically destroyed back in 1972. When McGovern ran for president, so many people split, and they have gone a different direction. So, when we talk about the boomer generation, and the and the issues there, we can also talk about the Democratic Party and what happened to them, because most of them- 2:32:57 AC: Well, I think that is a good example. But again, I am more optimistic. I think if you look at 1972, which was a fiasco, because George McGovern was not part of the mainstream. And his ideas were a bit to do now. And he obviously did not appeal to very many people in America, and he was suffered a serious landslide. At the same time, he was the victim of the Watergate crimes of that era. And if those crimes have been exposed more thoroughly, earlier by the news media, and the government and others, immediately, McGovern would have won. But at the same time, I would like to point out that many people from our generation did get active in the Democratic Party, even though some of us including me, were alienated from the democratic party after 1968 because of the serious tragedy that occurred at the Democratic Convention there in Chicago. But some of us eventually evolved back into the Democratic Party. And I think we have resuscitated that party to the point now that we have a- an African American president who is very openly progressive. And we are now having a great impact on the world. I think it is very clearly because the baby boomer generation took charges from the Democratic Party, 2:34:06 SM: Good points. 2:34:08 AC: I know I have in my own hometown; I am the chairman since 1992. 2:34:12 SM: That is very commendable, because you have continued to be you be an activist and also to be involved in politics and voting. And then and that is obviously a very big plus. You are an example to many young people. Two of the qualities I would like you to respond to is that the quality of movements which is part of the boomer generation, all those movements that took about kind of use the civil rights movement as a as a role model, because you have the antiwar the Native American Chicano gay and lesbian movements, the women's movement and the secondly the issue this is a very important thing is the effect of trust. The seams it is my feeling that the-the boomer generation was a very distressful generation because of the way the leaders had lied to them. Not only During the time they were of college age, but even before with President Eisenhower lying on national television to 59, about the U2 incident, which was really a big news item, no one could believe that he lied. Then, of course, we all know about the Gulf of Tonkin with LBJ Watergate with Nixon, some of the revolution revelations even about Kennedy in later years about the overthrow of regimes around the world. And then we get into Reagan and Iran Contra and all. And now even recently with George Bush and weapons of mass destruction. So, these are examples throughout the boomers live from the time they were basically in elementary school. And the reason, I am asking this question, Allen is the fact that oftentimes psychologists will say that the ability to trust is a very important quality that we must have in a person to be a success in life and to be a successful society. Your thoughts on whether the boomer generation is a very distrustful generation? And have they passed this distrust onto the children and grandchildren? 2:36:06 AC: Whether the boomer generation is a distressed generation- 2:36:10 SM: No, a lack of trust generation- 2:36:16 AC: lack of trust generation- 2:36:17 SM: Yes. 2:36:17 AC: It means that our generation does not deserve to be trusted- 2:36:19 SM: No-no-no that they are not trusting anybody else. And they think it is true. 2:36:23 AC: I think that is true. You know, we were we were raised up, for example, I was born in 1949. And I was raised up in the 1950s, which was a very idealistic time, of high employment, low poverty, there were plenty of jobs and healthcare for most people. And it was a time of rock and roll and Elvis Presley, and there was no war going on. So, it was a very idealistic, hopeful, positive time to be raised. But then in the 1960s, we saw the ugly side of American modern history, the ugliness of racism, sexism, homophobia, police brutality, war in Vietnam. And our government was turning in a criminal way toward being involved with excessive repression against minorities and others. So, we felt that we were betrayed, we have because we were raised up to have great hope in America, we felt that we found what we became of age in the 1960s, what are their hopes were betrayed? So that was why we took a stand. And I think Ever since then, you look around now you see very few people who have blind faith in their government, you know, was our generation that started that trend, I think nowadays is a very healthy thing, not only in America, but in any country, for people to look at the government skeptically and to question the government, especially their policies, because we have learned the hard way that they are mistaken policies have a drastic effect upon the common people. And whether it is the war in Vietnam, or recently, the abuses of Wall Street, which are now causing widespread suffering and unemployment and poverty, I think that our skepticism has been warranted. 2:38:06 SM: Truly interesting, if you look at some of the journals, a lot of people are fearful that Obama is going to become the next LBJ in Afghanistan, he is going to continue to bring troops in and he is never going to admit he is wrong. [right] You think there is a possibility that he could be, you know, another LBJ even though we lost love them in terms of, you know, there is-there is that possibility there. 2:38:34 AC: Yes, it is, But I think Obama is smarter than that. And I think people are going to be generally surprised when he brings peace to Afghanistan and Iraq soon and brings our economy back to life and we have national health care. I think Obama is going to be seen as a new Franklin Delano Roosevelt. 2:38:49 SM: How do you look at the music of the era because the musical obviously was very important. You hear it on the radio today, and you hear constantly on TV advertisements. I, I interviewed William Earhart a couple weeks back, you know, the great Vietnam poet, Vietnam veterans against the war leader and everything. And he took me to the back of the room. And he wanted me to read this small article. He is a teacher, at a school outside Philadelphia, and the article was a member of the birds who said, I will refer two of the members of the birds wanted to sell their music for car advertisements. He refused, he refused. And he said, even the musicians are betraying us now because of the fact that they are selling all their music to corporations. And they were the musicians that were the role models for the generation of the boomers. Just, your thoughts on the music of the (19)60s and the music of the boomers, whether it be the (19)50s, (19)60s or (19)70s and how important it was in their development as individuals and human beings. And you might want to talk about even the art that was going on in that era too. 2:40:02 AC: Well, the art, the especially the rock and roll had a tremendous impact politically and socially on our generation. In fact, I have always said that it was the rock and roll and some of those songs that inspired our political activism and even our militants, which helped to end the war in Vietnam. So, I do not think that is regrettable, and I think the fact that we mixed culture with politics is was one of the finest factors about our generation. As for some of the people selling out or selling their songs to make money, you know, some of these people have bills to pay and kids in college and health expenses. And I have never really thought it was a problem when they sold their music for TV commercials and cash down a little bit. Because I think that their intellectual property does have value and they need to have that value recognized. So, I do not really have a problem with them being compensated for their labor that way. 2:40:54 SM: When you listen to these three quotes, which do you think better defines the boomers or do you think they are they all in their own lane define them? Peter, Max used to have a poster out all the time that was on I know, it was all over Ohio State when I was there in graduate school in the early (19)70s. And the words where you do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful. The second? [I remember that] Yeah, the second quote, obviously, is Malcolm X by any means necessary. And that was out there long after he passed in 1965. And the third one we all know after Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. He had said it in Indianapolis, but he had also said in many other places, it was a Henry David Thoreau quote. And that is, some men see things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not? What I listened all three of those I, I see individuals that I knew back in the (19)60s and (19)70s, your thoughts on those three quotes, and if any one of them better defines the boomer generation? 2:42:00 AC: Well, it depends on which aspect of our generation you are talking about Malcolm X, I think spoke very eloquently for those of us who felt that we had to take a stand against our government, by any means necessary. And sometimes we were even compelled to pursue militant protest actions, because the government was not listening to peaceful protests. I think Malcolm X was the flip side of the coin. And on the other side was Dr. King who offered the peaceful solution. Our generation tried to pursue many different paths, but all trying to reach the same goal, which was peace and love. Peter, Max spoke for the-the love the hippie generation, the hippie side of our movement, the counterculture of people just trying to be groovy trying to be peaceful trying to come together. But sometimes people feel differently that gets people to get frustrated people who knew that just by waving the two fingers in the air, giving the peace sign and hoping for peace and love that that was not going to work without some kind of a militant stand, because the government itself was militant, pursuing a genocidal war in Vietnam, which killed 2 million Asian people. Those people became the victims of our military machine. Some of us could not stand idly by and just wave the peace sign, and hope and pray that the government would stop the war because that did not work. So, we had to turn to a slogan like Malcolm X's slogan, which really many of us took to our hearts. I know I did. And so, I think all of those statements spoke to the dichotomy as we saw it. We were torn, you know, we wanted peace and love. But we were again, like we said earlier, we were impatient. And so, we tried to do all those things. And even Bobby Kennedy, I s think spoke for the-the idealism of our generation, which even goes back to the earliest centuries of America. People always have high ideals and high hopes and dreams. But sometimes you have to take a stand and pay a price. Bobby Kennedy paid a price. Malcom X paid a price. And we did at Kent State but still we had those ideals. And those dreams, which were sometimes very costly, and we had to pay with the price of blood. 2:44:03 SM: Very well said, what do you think the lasting legacy of the boomers will be after the last Boomer has passed away? I remember in reading about when the last civil war veteran died, they have a statue in Gettysburg. And I thought when I first went there years ago, I said what are the statue here? This he was a last person who fought to get us. Well, they actually had a program about it around the time after he died, talking about the lack of healing, but so what are your thoughts on what do you think the legacy of the boomer generation will be as time passed- 2:44:38 AC: I think will be seen as the greatest generation in American history. I disagree with Tom Brokaw and other conservatives who try to say that the World War II generation was the greatest generation. I think, you know, it is true, they did survive the depression and they did help stop fascism and Japanese imperialism. But on the other hand, look at the look at their legacy after that. They were the generation in the greatest the war in Vietnam, they were the generation that tried to prop up racism in the 1960s. And, and other backwards traditions in America, racism, homophobia, damage to the environment and other negative aspects. So, I think that it was our generation, that made a serious break with those wrongful traditions and-and we had to take a stand against that so called Greatest Generation. And we helped stop the war in Vietnam. And we brought down Richard Nixon. And we helped to bring an end to some of these backwards tendencies in our politics in our culture. So, I think in that regard, I am very confident. And I am contented to say that ours was his greatest generation. 2:45:41 SM: Getting back to you know, President Kennedy, because we I was just listening to the inaugural speech. And of course, Today is November 22, which is 46 years ago, he passed away. And you gave very eloquent comments, the last time I spoke to you on the phone about the impact this had on you and your teacher when you were in ninth grade. But when you look at that inaugural speech, I encourage you to look at it again Allan, and some of the comments that were made, and ask not what your country can do for you, and what you can do for your country. And then all the comments about that. We will-we will go anywhere; we will help anyone. You know, there is some mixed messages even in his inaugural and now that you can reflect on it. So just your thoughts on President Kennedy and what his-his role here and obviously, the Peace Corps was very important. But you know, how did he shape the boomers just his presence? 2:46:43 AC: I think he inspired our generation, and no doubt about that. And his assassination left us with a great feeling of anguish, which caused us then to begin to awaken about the situation with our government and the situation with politics. Because many of us to snap out of the stupor, that was the inevitable result of being raised in this country and the soporific 1950s. So, he paid a very dear price. And our generation as a result, I think, began to wake up and snap out of it and pay attention. And his words, were always foremost in our minds, when he said, ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country, we started to-started to get a sense of obligation, that we had to take a stand that our generation had a role to play. And so, I think that we always revere his memory in our hearts. I know I do, especially on this day, November 22, when I always pause and remember that tragedy, which I will never forget, in 1963, when I was only 14 years old. So, we revere his memory. And I think his-his tragic death, and also the example set by his brother, Bobby Kennedy in 1968. I think that whole identity impact is a very large part of the inspiration of our movements for peace and justice. And in the 1960s- 2:48:12 SM: Yeah, 46 years ago, and this happened on a Friday, and it was around 1:30, then East Coast time that we found out about it. And of course, it was beautiful skies, just like today. The weather. That is the irony. It is not always that way. What were some of the books that that you read in some of your peers read in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s books that may have influenced you writers, whether it be fiction or nonfiction? 2:48:37 AC: Well, I think the one writer that influenced me, the most that inspired me the most was Albert Camus. In particular, his book called The Rebel, I read that book, and it really caused me to see the world differently, and to see my role in a more clear manner, I knew that I had to take a stand and I think above all the philosophers that did impact me at that time, it was Albert Camus. Also, Friedrich Nietzsche. Nietzsche talked about the great noon and the need to destroy the old morality and the old order that had a big impact on me. And I know my roommates, some of them were reading jack Kerouac, and some of the beat poets and people like that. But also, I think the philosophers from our generation Tom Hayden had a big impact on us. So, we read the [inaudible] report, we knew about the call to action from Mr. Hayden and the SBS, student activists, leaders, and also people like Martin Luther King, we were very aware of his writings and his philosophy, but also Malcolm X on the other side of that same coin. So, I think we had a broad range of people that did impact us at the time- 2:49:49 SM: any of your friends read the greening of America by Charles Wright. 2:49:53 AC: And he wrote after it came out after the 1970 shootings right after right, we all read that of course, I think it did. have an impact that helped us summarize the positive aspects of our generation and the impact that we were having on the society. 2:50:07 SM: And another book was Theodore Roszak the making of a counterculture, which was another eye opener in the late (19)60s. 2:50:15 AC: I have that book now. But I did not read it at that time, but I read it afterwards. 2:50:19 SM: I am for the section of the interview now where I just want you to respond to various personalities of the period and or terms. And of course, you know, I asked this to everybody but and I know I have already said this, but what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? 2:50:39 AC: Well, I have studied the history of American student activism. So, I am aware that it was the Kent State and Jackson State tragedies, following the invasion of Cambodia that sparked the only national student strike in US history. So, on the one hand, I feel a great sense of anguish about the tragic loss of life. Alison Krauss, Jeffrey Miller, Sandy Scheuer, Bill Schroeder, also games all green and thought is killed down there at Jackson State, but I cherish those memories. But at the same time, I looked at May of 1978, in Jackson State as a reason to be proud it was the time when our generation by the millions, almost 5 million young people on our campuses across the country took a serious stand against our government, some of us paid a very big surprise with life and was blood. But I think it was a shining example of how our generation was willing to take a stand. 2:51:36 SM: Well, my famous picture that [inaudible] family took of you with the flag, which everybody in the world has seen. If you could just describe I know you have done in your books, and you have done it in your speeches, and you do a great job of that. But that that time frame, that very short timeframe, and when you walk up that hill, to Taylor Hall, and then walk past the, the metal structure on the left and down the hill, and, and then all of a sudden, the cracks of the guns. How often does that come back to you? And you know, just just-just your thoughts. 2:52:19 AC: Oh, it comes back to me all the time. I cannot avoid that issue. I have two websites where I am constantly getting email messages from students, scholars, researchers, and others from across America and around the world. I am not trying to escape my obligation to history, I have always felt that I have, I have a duty to speak for my friend Jeffrey Miller, who was shot through the head and killed that day and cannot speak for the others. They were silenced forever. And I feel that some of us have to take a stand nowadays for truth and for justice as a way to speak for them. They cannot fly out from the grave; we have to speak for them. So, I have never really tried to walk away from this issue. I have tried to embrace it and address my duty that I feel and to work with many other people to try to bring a semblance of truth and justice. I deal with this every day. But I do not let it consume my life. I am not, as some conservatives have tried to say, stuck in a time or nothing about this tragedy. I have a life way beyond May 4. I am the chairperson of the Democratic Party. I work for the government; I have a 40 hour a week job. I spent a lot of time helping democrats defeat the dastardly Republicans. So, I have a full life. I am not one dimensional by any means. But at the same time, I refuse to just walk away from my obligations that can say- 2:53:40 SM: very good, Alan. What is the wall mean to you? The Vietnam Memorial. 2:53:46 AC: I think it is the most beautiful, powerful Memorial in Washington, I have been there several times. It has a great emotional impact on anybody who has a heart. If you go there, and you walk down towards the center of that gash in the earth, and you see the 58,000 names, I think inevitably has to have a powerful effect on you. You see the reflection, you see your own face, though you realize you are still on this earth. While those 58,000 are gone. They have paid a very dear price, and that is a beautiful memorial and attribute to their memories. 2:54:19 SM: What does Watergate mean to you? 2:54:23 AC: Watergate was the exposure of the criminality of the Nixon administration and the I think it is a reminder of the general tendency of the republican party ever since. You know, it was Richard Nixon, who initiated the concept of dirty tricks in politics. I know politics has always been dirty down through the years, but it seems to be having become institutionalized in the republican party ever since. 2:54:47 SM: James Rhodes. 2:54:49 AC: James Rhodes was the criminal governor of the state of Ohio back in 1970. It was his rhetoric. The words that he used that inspired the Kent State tragedy, blood remained on his hands until he died and now, he is, as a result burning in hell forever. 2:55:04 SM: No, it is interesting Alan. Now I lived in Ohio and Gilligan was governor and I am shocked that state voted him back in. 2:55:13 SM: Rhodes was the master of manipulating the people of Ohio. He had his hand on the pulse very well, I will say this. He was a master politician. But at the same time, he was only a high school graduate, he did not really have done college. He was basically a country bumpkin who had the great gift of speaking and talking to common folks’ language. I do not think he would ever have a chance of getting elected now in the modern age. But back at that time, he was a really a reflection of it backwards. Thinking of too many Ohioans 2:55:45 SM: How about the counterculture, hippies and hippies. 2:55:50 AC: I have mixed memories about the counterculture, the hippies and the hippies. I think that there were excesses. And there were there was too much idealism, and too much wasted energy. I wish that we had been more enlightened, and more focused and more effective 2:56:06 SM: Students for democratic society and the weathermen. 2:56:10 AC: I think the students for a democratic society is one of the greatest organizations that ever existed in America. It was a broad ranging group, which encompassed everyone among the student generation, which included pacifist, anarchists and everybody in between. They pursued a wide range of tactics from peaceful tactics to militant, I think basically, they responded to the tragedy of Vietnam. They also opposed racism and, and damage to the environment, and the oppression of women and other minorities. So, I think I am very proud that I was a member of SDS. And I think I SDS remains a very misunderstood organization. 2:56:49 SM: How about the Vietnam Veterans against the war? And then the Americans for freedom, which was the conservative group against the war? 2:56:57 AC: What is the second group? You mentioned? 2:56:58 SM: The Americans for freedom? 2:57:00 AC: You mean the young Americans for freedom? 2:57:03 SM: Yeah, young Americans for freedom? Yeah, yeah. 2:57:05 AC: The Young Americans for freedom was a basically an outgrowth of William F. Buckley in the conservative movement in the 1960s. And they were very backwards and primitive in their ideology trying to defend the old order. And I think they were widely discredited. And that is why they do not really exist anymore. On the other hand, what was the other group you mentioned? I am sorry, I got distracted YAF- 2:57:28 SM: The Vietnam veterans against Vietnam veterans against the war. 2:57:30 AC: Yeah. That was a very principled and proud organization, which still exists. Those were veterans of the War [audio cuts]- 2:57:42 SM: Testing one two [audio cuts] 2:57:50 AC: Ring home that inspired the students and the others in America to take a stand against the war. Those veterans saw the war, they knew how long and how horrible and awful the world was in Vietnam. And they compelled us to take action. And they joined us in the frontlines of the movement. So, I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration. Still, for the Vietnam Veterans against the War- 2:58:13 SM: I think I lost the first two lines because they had to change my tape. But I think, I do not know if you remember what you said. Anyway, yeah, you got it. Okay. I am going to get into some personalities here. And you know, Jane Fonda- 2:58:29 AC: Jane Fonda is a misunderstood individual. I think she had good intentions, but she did some things that she regretted. She went to Vietnam and posed on that anti-aircraft battery. And she was, I think, typical of many people from our generation two excessively idealistic, because she did make some mistakes. But basically, I think her heart was in the right place. And I wish them more Hollywood stars and other famous people have taken a stand like hers. 2:58:57 SM: Well, if you go to the Vietnam Memorial, she is the one person that seems, and no one ever forgives most of Vietnam- 2:59:04 AC: I was there-there and I saw that they had a bunch of those stickers there. Those bumper stickers, Hanoi, Jane and all that. And I had a big discussion with some of those Vietnam veterans, about her and about Vietnam. And when I was discussing Vietnam and Jane Fonda with a bunch of those pro-war, Vietnam veterans, those conservative Vietnam veterans there in Washington, crowd gathered about 100 people gathered around as we had about a 60 minute discussion, really, and by the end of it, I had those conservative Vietnam veterans shaking my hand because I explained to them about Kent State and why some of us had to take a stand and ended up shaking my hand. I think maybe they might have seen Jane Fonda in a different light after that day. 2:59:45 SM: [Agreement] How about Tom Hayden? 2:59:48 AC: Tom Hayden was one of the greatest heroes of the 1960s he wrote for here on stage and he helped to found SBS. And he helped them lead the movement against the war in Vietnam but also against racism against blacks. Ain New York and elsewhere, and I think Tom Hayden is one of the great, great heroes of the 1960s- 3:00:08 SM: had a brand-new book out again too Amie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. 3:00:15 AC: I think there was a Crown Princes of the 1960s antiwar movements. They were basically I think, anarchistic comedians, I do not think that they were so effective politically as they could have been if they, if they have been less idealistic, and more realistic. I think the Yippies were correct in their enthusiasm against the war, but wrong in many of the tactics that they use, which were counterproductive. 3:00:43 SM: Timothy Leary. 3:00:46 AC: Another example of the idealism of the 1960s I think his heart was in the right place. But encouraging people to experiment with LSD i think is regrettable. I think that he did inspire our generation, though, to question the government and to question our reality as it existed, but encouraging the use of LSD I think is wrong 3:01:09 SM: the Black Panthers and I say, again, I mentioned about six people here, which is Eldridge Cleaver, cannot link cleaver, Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Angela Davis, that group. 3:01:22 AC: I think they are very inspirational for the African American population in our country. They started things like the free breakfast program, which is now instituted by our government across the country. They encouraged African Americans to take a stand of defending their neighborhoods, I think that was a good thing because the neighborhoods were under attack. If the Black Panthers were not effective, they would not have been subjected to the cruel repression, the deadly repression by the government. The government saw them as a legitimate threat. And they were, they were revolutionary. They wanted to change America drastically. And they succeeded. Rather than have the data very depressed, including all the people that you mentioned, they all spent time in jail. Some of those people then went bad let people like Eldridge Cleaver ended up becoming a conservative pro government person. I think that was regrettable. But-but the rest of the activists have all remained very principled and proud and stayed active in the movement. 3:02:17 SM: About Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. 3:02:21 AC: I supported McCarthy for a while 1968. But I think then later, he played a bad role when he continued to oppose Bobby Kennedy, he should have stood aside gracefully and allowed Bobby Kennedy to easily have access to the Democratic nomination. So, I think that was wrong of McCarthy. He stayed in the race too long then. And afterwards, he just seemed to be a frustrated man. But I think Eugene McCarthy should be recognized for his great courage and taking a stand against Lyndon Johnson during the Vietnam War. During that time period- 3:02:53 SM: And George McGovern- 3:02:55 AC: George McGovern, I have mixed feelings about George McGovern, on the one hand, he was victimized by the crimes of the Nixon administration in the Watergate scandal, think he could have been a good president. But afterwards, I think McGovern to me, I do not think has played such a good wall through the years. I know at Kent state he came and spoke in 1990. While we had 40,000 people protesting in the rain, nothing against the reduced Memorial at Kent State which was reduced by 93 percent. It was a national controversy. And McGovern came in and just acted like it was business as usual. And he regretted the protesters. I do not have very good feelings about George McGovern right now. 3:03:33 SM: The nonviolent protest movement and I give you two examples. The scene of Stokely Carmichael standing next to Martin Luther King, basically telling them Your time has passed. That is a historic picture and Martin Luther King has his arms folded, you can sign attention and the other one was the debate that Malcolm X had been about three months before he was assassinated with Byard Rustin, who was of you know, worked with Martin Luther King basically telling him that Your time has passed, challenging me, you know, the civil rights leaders of the era, which were Whitney Young, James farmer, Ray Wilkins, Byard, Rustin and Martin Luther King, you know, your time has passed your thoughts on Moses. 3:04:16 AC: I think people like Stokely Carmichael, and Malcolm X had a tremendous impact on the nonviolent civil rights movement. For example, I think it was the pressure from people like Stokely Carmichael and Malcolm X that caused Martin Luther King eventually to take a real strong stand against the war in Vietnam. Personally, I think that was why Martin Luther King was assassinated, because he was becoming very powerful and it was broadening out his impact beyond the civil rights movement, and the government had to kill them. 3:04:45 SM: Yeah, Yeah, Martin Luther King and Malcolm were my next to people here. You are just your-your thoughts on them. 3:04:53 AC: Martin Luther King and Malcom X? [yeah]. I think there was a great American patriot way. They loved America enough to take a stand to try to change it. they pursue different tactics and different strategies. But I think together they made a powerful team and had a tremendous lasting impact. And that is why they were killed. Sometimes in America, if you take too strong of a stand if you become too much of a threat to the government, they feel they have to kill you. And I really do believe that government killed both of those individuals. 3:05:23 SM: Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. 3:05:26 AC: That is quite a dynamic duo. Both criminals. Both admittedly, criminals. One of them went to jail. The other did not. I think it was unfortunate that Nixon escaped prison time. If President Nixon was jailed for his crimes in office, I think then we might have not had Ronald Reagan committing his crimes with the Iran Contra scandal, Reagan should have been jailed. George Herbert Walker Bush his illegal actions. And also, George W. Bush. These were all criminal republican presidents that all escaped prosecution, and they all should have been sent to prison, in my opinion, and I do not say that lightly. I know that is a serious charge. But at the same time, unless we have these people paying a price like Nixon should have better price than other presidents will be a bit Cavalier with their own criminal activities, thinking they also will escape punishment. For example, in recent years, George W. Bush is clearly an international war criminal. He has killed hundreds of 1000s of people with his wrongful policies in Iraq, Alone women and children, old people, and others. And he has escaped prosecution as well. This is wrong this has to stop. 3:06:41 SM: This gets right in then to Gerald Ford comments on Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. 3:06:52 AC: Gerald Ford, had to pick up the pieces from the damage of the Nixon administration, I think Gerald Ford was put into a tough situation. Although he was not exactly the brightest intellect in the history of our presidents, he surely was not very bright. But then unfortunately, Jimmy Carter followed and was relatively ineffectual he had economic problems he had to scandal, the hostages in Iran and followed by Ronald Reagan. So that was a really difficult period of our country where we went from bad to worse went from Nixon to Reagan. And I think our country suffered as a result. 3:07:32 SM: One thing, your thoughts that Ronald Reagan used to always say, well, we are back it was really a slap at the (19)60s in the (19)70s. Because he could, we are bringing him we are bringing America back, we are bringing, we are going to the military is going to be stronger, and that that may have been okay, because even the people in the military realize there was something wrong. And then when George, George Bush Senior came in, he said, The Vietnam syndrome is over. So, both Reagan and Bush Senior, you know, had very strong comments, really on an era. 3:08:06 AC: Well, that is traditional for conservatives to try to rewrite history. For example, it was Richard Nixon, who first talked about the ending the Vietnam syndrome, Ronald Reagan declared it to be dead. But still, if you look at Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, this is a time period during the late (19)70s, early (19)80s, where there was serious talk of bringing back the draft. Well, they could not do that, because the American people would not stand for that. So that is the positive legacy of our generation. We stopped the military draft, and it has not been resumed ever since. So, they cannot destroy the Vietnam syndrome. The fact that there is no draft proves that the Vietnam syndrome is alive and well. Also, we have not had another war like Vietnam ever since Vietnam. During Vietnam, we would lose 6000 gives me, sorry 4000 of our soldiers in a six-month period, we would lose over 400 soldiers in a week, sometimes, we have not had a war like that ever since Vietnam because the American people remember Vietnam, Vietnam syndrome is still alive. We remember the legacy of the war in Vietnam and our antiwar movement. So, we do not have a draft and we do not have another war like Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan are nothing compared to Vietnam. We started to see the level of casualties as we saw during Vietnam. Again, we would have another antiwar movement just as strong. So, when Nixon, Reagan and George HW Bush or George bush tried to announce that they are back and the conservatism is a reigning Supreme, while there is only so much that they can do because the legacy of Vietnam remains alive and well- 3:09:36 SM: Lyndon Johnson and Hubert Humphrey. 3:09:41 AC: I think they were both decent men, a good Liberal Democrats who tried to do the right thing in certain regards with social policies, but their tremendous failing their Achilles heel was Vietnam. Lyndon Johnson suffered to the point where he had to withdraw from the 1968 presidential race and the remains a very haunted man until his death, haunted by Vietnam and Hubert Humphrey similarly suffered because he was so closely linked to LBJ, even though they did try to bring some racial harmony in our country and provide a transition as President Kennedy promised to do. I think they tried to be good liberals that way. But Vietnam proved to be their albatross- 3:10:24 SM: Barry Goldwater and Robert McNamara. 3:10:30 AC: Well, there is two different guys there. Barry Goldwater, of course is the father of the modern conservative movement. And he but even Barry Goldwater moderated in his later years, and he was not as frightened as some of these very errant conservatives that we have now. Like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and the Fox TV network. So, I think Barry Goldwater was a very principled individual, and he was proud to be a conservative, and I think he was an honest man. Later on, he saw the dangers of modern conservatism, and he condemned that he made a break from that. So, who was the second person you said against- 3:11:09 SM: McNamara, Robert, who just died- 3:11:12 AC: Another tortured individual who was haunted by Vietnam to his grave. And McNamara to his credit, did tried to distance himself from the war in Vietnam and from those policies, and he admitted that they were wrong. I think that was had a tremendous impact on the healing that our nation needs. 3:11:30 SM: Daniel and Philip Berrigan. 3:11:33 AC: Great heroes of the movement, religious men who proved that they tried to be like Jesus and trying to bring peace and understanding and healing to the world. And they paid a price for that, just like Jesus said- 3:11:49 SM: George Wallace. 3:11:50 AC: George Wallace was a strident conservative, a racist, openly, 1968 he helped to draw attention to the conservative right wing racist movement. But he failed and inevitably proved to be a failure in- 3:12:08 SM: The Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65. 3:12:12 AC: Mario Savio and those guys out there in Berkeley were great heroes. They inspire the 1960s student movement greatly. They had a great impact on future generations of students, I think, even to the present day today, defending the First Amendment and helping to spark the antiwar movement later. The students of Berkeley were great heroes even though they paid a dear price. 3:12:33 SM: The beats like Galen Ginsburg, Jack Kerouac, Neal Cassady, Ken Kenzie, Ed Sanders are happening in that group. 3:12:43 AC: The beats inspire the Ken Ekezie 60s movement. Of course, they blaze their own trail, they were younger, before we were, and so they took a stand against conservatism and apathy. And they helped to awaken the 60s generation. Those guys were very cool 3:12:58 SM: And then in the women's movement, which is Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Betty, for Dan, the list goes on and on. Some of the female leaders- 3:13:11 AC: Very courageous women are sisters, and they help to blaze a trail, which provides many benefits now for women all across America. The women's movement remains alive and well, of course, and that is how it should be. I am a great supporter of women's rights and freedoms. I was always inspired by those women, although I will admit and my own opinion, and not just in the women's movement, but I think in various movements from our generation, there were excesses and they were, there was extreme idealism and political correctness. And I think sometimes that is regrettable. 3:13:45 SM: Dr. Benjamin Spock. 3:13:48 AC: Dr. Benjamin Spock, a great hero, took a stand against the war in Vietnam, even though he could have just continued to be popular, maybe book doctor and lived a nice, comfortable life. He paid a price for his activism, and he was correct to take such a principled stand against the war in Vietnam. 3:14:08 SM: John Dean. 3:14:09 AC: John Dean’s another courageous man who stand to bring truth and feeling to our country at the time of Watergate. 3:14:24 SM: TET [referring to Tet Offensive]. 3:14:25 AC: TET, 1968 especially as remembered, although it is an annual holiday in Vietnam, 1968 was the period where the Vietnamese Vietcong basically took a stand all across South Vietnam and helped to awaken the American people that we were not winning the war that the light was not at the end of the tunnel that there was no real end in sight, and that it really did help to inspire the antiwar movement here as well- 3:14:50 SM: How about the ERA that did not quite succeed, but women were trying in the (19)70s. Their early (19)70s. 3:14:56 AC: Regrettable, that it did not become a constitutional amendment. I supported the era Just as I always support women's rights and freedom. I think However, even though that amendment was not passed, still the-the impact of that attempt, and the women's movement is still very strong today and women are enjoying great rights and freedoms. Of Course, they always have to be defended, because those are always under attack by the conservative movement. 3:15:21 SM: The individual or groups that you felt were the greatest musicians that had the greatest impact on the boomer generation- 3:15:27 AC: I think that clearly it was the Jefferson Airplane, Jimi Hendrix, the Grateful Dead. John Fogarty and cleared Creedence Clearwater Revival bands like that. I think they had a tremendous impact on our generation. They helped me to stop the war in Vietnam- 3:15:44 SM: April 30, 1970, the Nixon speech about the invasion of Cambodia. 3:15:54 AC: Very provocative and controversial, basically an invasion of Cambodia. Although Nixon denied it was an invasion. That was the event that triggered the four days of protests at Kent State which culminated in the massacre. But it provoked a revolt all across our country. Richard Nixon grossly miscalculated the impact. He-he knew there would be an impact he knew there would be a price to pay. But he totally miscalculated and misunderstood the fact that he would trigger the only national student strike and US history. 3:16:27 SM: Down to pretty much toward the end here. Allan what do you feel are the best books on can stay. I know that we have talked about this before that some you really do not like, I know that Michener wrote a book right away. That was well known. I.F stone had a paperback that came out. There is the one I just mentioned that I just found out about. There is the breath. And Peter Davies wrote one on Kent state, but in your opinion, and in the opinion of your peers, you know, the students that were there, what are the ones that they feel is the best book on Kent state. 3:17:02 AC: Peter Davies wrote a very good book in the early 1970s. I think it is failing- is that it was early and there has been a lot of evidence has come out ever since. But Peter Davies very courageously attacked the cover up of murder at Kent State, he joined with Reverend John Adams of the United Methodist Church. And he put out that book the truth about Kansas State, which was very helpful and pressuring the government to create a federal grand jury, for example, which did occur in 1974. Another good book was Joe Keller, our attorney, he wrote a book called the Kent State cover up, which was published around 1989 or (19)90 or so. And it was a very good book, dealing with the file and the evidence that occurred from the court case. So that was an excellent book did deal with a lot more of the evidence that Peter Davies did not have access to a lot of the testimony that came out on the court and the investigations. But even these books did not focus on the order to fire enough, which I focused on in my own research. And which causes me to think that the books that I am going to be coming out with will be the best books about Kent State that have ever been written. My roommate from 1970, Tom grace, was a PhD in history also is coming out with a new book about the history of the Kent State student movements in the 1950s through the 70s. [Excellent] He is going to focus a lot on 1970 something his book will be very credible. Also. I.F stones book was very good. It was basically his rant against the cover up of murder, very good. And there has been a few good books, some mediocre books and some terrible books. 3:18:41 SM: Where do you put Michener’s book? 3:18:43 AC: Michener’s book I would say is either mediocre or poor. He has been exposed as fabricating many of his quotes or misquoting many of his sources. His book was very early. In fact, it was the earliest book of all, so it suffers from that flaw. There has been a great deal of evidence that is come out ever since, but Michener did a good job of talking about the four victims or martyrs, talking about the kinds of people that they were and about their last days. They did a good job that way. But when it came down to his final conclusion that there was no order to fire and that was just an inevitable tragedy, and he did not focus enough on the National Guard and their criminal shooting of the students. I do not put the blame myself on the triggerman so much now as they do on the officers and Michener, basically let the officers off the hook- 3:19:30 SM: Your thoughts on john filo? Oh, that courageous student photographer I interviewed him for the book and being called into that. And he his story is unbelievable. And Marian [inaudible] the 14-year-old who just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Your thoughts on both of them not only about the experiences that they both gone through, but you have known them your whole life. Just your thoughts on them. 3:19:57 AC: Well, I love both of them dearly. John, Marian My dear friends, hang on a moment, I have another call. 3:20:05 SM: Okay. What was the question about john Filo and Marian Becky? 3:20:13 AC: So, I think they both played a great role in history. That photograph is one of the most famous photographs ever. And on the one hand, it has helped John Filo’s career but on the other hand, it has a Mary Vecchio and unforgettable icon, and she has had to pay a price for that. With social ostracism, sometimes and unwarranted criticism. She has healed very nicely from that, and they have become good friends. And they both come back to Kent State on a regular basis to help raise awareness about the 1970 tragedy. So, I admire their courage and not only refusing to turn their back on the situation, but also trying to help other people understand. 3:20:58 SM: I know I have been trying to interview Marian Becky, and she hasn't responded to me, but I hope I eventually will be able to get her interview a phone number. Yeah. Oh, no, I do not have her phone number. But I have emailed her so many times. And so, I do not have a phone number though. 3:21:19 AC: I will email you her phone number, if you remind me- 3:21:20 SM: Okay, great. And one final thing, and I know you are going, is there a question that I did not ask that you thought I would have asked in this email? 3:21:28 AC: Or you were very thorough, Steve, I have no. I cannot think of another question. 3:21:34 SM: Okay. Could you email me also, Dean Taylor's email address and Joe Lewis, I would like to interview them? 3:21:43 AC: Email me to remind me, Stephen. I will do that- 3:21:46 SM: Have a great day Allan and continue doing what you always do. Yep. Take care. Bye now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Alan Canfora and Dr. Roseann Chic Canfora Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Canfora, Alan ; Canfora, Roseann Chic ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Educators; Kent State Shootings, Kent, Ohio, 1970; Canfora, Roseann Chic--Interviews; Political activists--United States; Library directors; University of Akron. School of Law. Library; Canfora, Alan Description An account of the resource Dr. Roseann "Chic" Canfora is an educator. She received her Master's degree in Journalism and Public Relations at Kent State University, where she also earned a Ph.D. in Educational Administration. Currently, she is a Chief Communications Officer at Cleveland Metropolitan School District. Dr. Canfora is the sister of Alan Canfora and an eyewitness to the Kent State massacre on May 4, 1970. <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Alan Canfora is a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora is an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a bachelor's degree in General Studies and master's degree in Library Science. Currently, he is the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":8403713,"3":[null,0],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,4995385],"15":"Arial","16":10,"26":400}">Alan Canfora (1949-2020) was a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora was an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a Bachelor's degree in General Studies and a Master's degree in Library Science. He was the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.63a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.63b ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.63c Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 201:57 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc2699896c213ad039479cea47024a7b.jpg f442ef3434bf04a2ad491c4a4bd5087b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0df9a26ade2a96366b900dd1d2f98592.mp3 4d0153c1c9b1eeff07d8f551c66b7730 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-05-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Al Santoli, 1949- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam. He earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam. He earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 147:37 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Veterans; Weatherman Underground; Jim Webb; Vietnam Memorial; Maya Lin; trust; WWII; Watergate; Bob Muller; Counterculture; Louis Puller."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Veterans; Weatherman Underground; Jim Webb; Vietnam Memorial; Maya Lin; trust; WWII; Watergate; Bob Muller; Counterculture; Louis Puller. Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Authors; Bronze Star Medal (U.S.); Purple Heart; Santoli, Al, 1949--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Albert Santoli Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 18 May 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two, testing. Start it right now. Al (00:00:08): Let me go to your email as well. SM (00:00:11): Okay. Did you get my email address for [inaudible]- Al (00:00:22): I Did. Thank you very much. SM (00:00:26): Yeah. And do not forget, Paul Yuppies at Merrill Lynch in New York City. Al (00:00:30): Should I just... I have never met him before. Who else... Who is he close to? What board? SM (00:00:36): Well, he is close to Jan Scruggs. Al (00:00:40): Okay. SM (00:00:41): For the Vietnam Memorial. But Paul is... He is one of the top people at Merrill Lynch in New York City. He has had a lot of different positions because they had to go through... You know some people lost their jobs there, but he has been very successful and has moved on to different roles. And I am not sure how financially stable they are, but he is a big supporter of Vietnam veterans. And he has spoken at the wall and he has contributed, I believe, to the Women's Memorial and to Jan Scruggs' Vietnam Memorial through the Merrill Lynch. So he would be a great contact. Al (00:01:20): Mm-hmm. SM (00:01:22): So, alright I do not know if you are ready to go. Al (00:01:25): Just about. I have one more sentence here on this message that I have to send, so I can clear the deck on this one and then I am a hundred percent with you. SM (00:01:34): Okay. [inaudible]. Okay. We are going right with the questions that I sent you and- Al (00:01:40): Now those are a lots of questions. I was thinking of, maybe streamline it. Like the stuff of, what do I think about these different decades? I do not see that that is really... You might have a reason for that, very specific reason for that. The theme of your book. I do not know that I have that much to say about it. I think that there is other things there that, probably, I can address and put some statements into that are going to be more meaningful. SM (00:02:16): Mm-hmm. Well, let us go right to number two then. How did the 1950s shape you? Al (00:02:24): Well, that is when I was born, I mean, in (19)49. So the (19)50s was my childhood. And I do not know, I think the people's characters are what they are and the (19)50s, people are people no matter when they are born. And I think that you can say that it was pre-high-tech. SM (00:02:53): Mm-hmm. Al (00:02:54): But then again, I do not know how that influences people because even technology is a tool and it is about your, and your family is your family, and there has always been harmony and disharmony in families that affect people no matter who they are, rich or poor, and no matter when they were born. So that is why with those, I do not see them as being as relevant to me- SM (00:03:17): Mm-hmm. Al (00:03:17): As some other things. But I never, I do not see it in those terms. I have never seen it in those terms. I have never seen... I have never really taken it seriously or seriously, I will put it this way, seriously considered the issue of baby boomers except that we were a very, very fortunate bunch of people to be born at a time when this country really had a lot of economic security and stability and that is really important. I think that in itself shaped people a certain way. But the kinds of people, they became either responsible or irresponsible that is about their character. SM (00:04:07): So you do not see, when we are talking the (19)50s and then the (19)60s and all these changes took place, would you see any difference between those two decades for people of your age? Al (00:04:23): No, and I think I judge people by who they are today, but all that matters to me is who people are. And you cannot really tell who somebody is going to become, but you can tell who somebody is. And I feel that a lot of people hide the issue of the (19)60s being this very high polluting time. But I have to tell you that I really do not think it was any more special and I think there were a lot of people who were fake idealists. Who when push came to shove and it was their term to be responsible, completely dropped the ball. I think the people that grew up in the 1930s and were shaped by World War II in the (19)40s had a lot more character development and a lot more character than this group of the 1950s. I say the 1950s as being a bunch of phonies. They are a bunch of spoiled brats by and large. And I think adversity makes people stronger and everybody has adversity in their own lives. And they have, you know, all of us have obstacles that we have to overcome. But, I think that for people to say this, I do not think World War II was the best generation. I do not think that Vietnam was the best generation. I do not think the people today, just because they are high-tech savvy, are the best generation. I just tend to think people are people no matter when they are born. SM (00:06:11): When you were in the service, what were your thoughts on your peers who really were trying to get out of serving? And there were many in college, but some outside of college too, and those who protested the war. What were your thoughts on them when you were in Vietnam and when you came home? Al (00:06:29): Well, of course when you are in the war, you do not appreciate it because they helped prolong the war because it gave the other side, and rightly so, that was always the target. If you look at the Bratislava conference and the Havana conferences that were met by the Russians and the Cuban and the Vietnamese to whip up the... And Vietnam learned that from what happened with France during the French period, the Communist always knew this. The Soviet Communist always knew this because, how they did mass mobilization. So I felt that the anti-war movement did not stop the war. They prolonged the war. But when I came back from the war, I had friends that were protestors and friends that were in anti-war movement. I myself had very, very mixed feelings about what was going on in Vietnam. Not because I was against defeating the Communist, but because they were bad guys. And they proved that after 1975 in Spain, that I felt that our country had betrayed us and our lives did not mean anything. We are just a bunch of harm. And that itself was something that was very hurtful. And I think part of the reason that there were so many veterans that had such a rough homecoming and that is what my books were about. SM (00:07:57): Right. Al (00:07:57): It was trying to reconcile the fact that people that went were just, was not that Vietnam veterans were like any different than anybody else. SM (00:08:06): Mm-hmm. Al (00:08:07): We have been tested in a way others had not been tested, uniquely, because of the circumstances. And there were some people that were destroyed by that. And then there were some people that became better people from it as well. And I am thinking if you look at the books, like everything we had, where I included pictures of people in the book. The purpose being of showing that everyone in this book could be your next door neighbor. And there were people in the book that had mixed feelings about being there while that they were there and when they came home. And it was a, I would say one thing, it was a very complex generation, that is for sure. SM (00:08:53): Mm-hmm. Al (00:08:53): And there was definitely a division between those who would be drafted and those who had the ability to get out of the draft. For me, I was an enlistee. I chose it. I volunteered and I knew it would kill me or change me, which it did. And it almost did both because of the illness that I contacted from the blood transfusion, it could almost both have changed me and killed me. But I am passing, passing through that second stage of it, on the second stage being that even now as I am entering the last quadrant of my life. That a natural cycle that I have been able to use what I learned as a young soldier to help shape me. I think in a way that is constructive that I never would have had if I had not been invested in that manner. SM (00:09:44): Yeah, you... Al (00:09:45): I cannot say I am grateful to Lyndon Johnson, but I am grateful for the experience because for me personally, it made a better person of me. There were other people that it destroyed. There were people in the anti-war movement, some of whom became better people from it, some of whom became bigger jerks because of it, some of whom it destroyed. If you look at the people that were involved in things like the Weather Underground and other radical movement, if you take it to the extreme. SM (00:10:17): Mm-hmm. Al (00:10:17): But my personal feeling is that people have a core character, and that character can either be augmented or diminished depending upon their life experience and how they deal with it. And also, I have to say, the mentors and the people that they have around them also makes me appreciate the work I am doing now, and accepting at the stage of my life that it is important for me to be a mentor. To pass on whatever I have learned constructively to the young ones who are going to be taking our place. And that in it for me, it includes very much centrally working in areas of conflict. So there is not many of us that can do that. Just because it is a very tough thing to do. Just like there are not so many people that can be cops and not so many people that can be firemen and not too many people that can be school teachers. All of us have a calling. And I feel that my wartime experience really helped bring that out of me in a constructive way. SM (00:11:17): You really answered question six and seven by responding because what did the Vietnam War teach you as a person, and what did the (19)60s, and (19)60s and (19)70s teach you as a person. So- Al (00:11:28): Yeah. SM (00:11:29): Those are, they are combined there. Certainly what you are doing now is very important. And with all the divisions that took place in America during the (19)60s and the (19)70s, have we- Al (00:11:42): So you are on question four now. Okay. SM (00:11:43): Yeah. We are on question four and then we are going to go to five. Well, all the divisions that took place in America during the (19)60s and (19)70s, had we healed as a nation from those many divisions or will most members of this generation, boomers that is, be going to their graves not healing like many from the Civil War, who was documented, did not heal? Al (00:12:04): I think as a society, the Vietnam War was the symptom, it was not a cause. The Vietnam War was a product of who we were becoming as a nation. I think before this generation ends, this country will be tested like it never has been before. Not since World War II, because of economic reasons, because of conflicts that are just over the horizon. Because of the ramifications of what has been happening with Iraq and Afghanistan of the war on terror. We are still in the process of becoming, and it is going to be not easy. And for the coming generations, they are going to have to deal with a much more difficult world. And for America, we are not going to be having it as easy as we had it before. And I hope this brings out the best in people. And I hope it brings out leadership that we do not see in this country now, because people will be tested. And when you are tested heavily, the best and the worst comes out of people. I am just praying that in this country there is more good things than negative things. But in terms of all the stuff, civil rights, movement, everything that was part of that period, that was something our country was going through in evolution. And the Vietnam War was part of the evolution. The Vietnam War did not create that. It was part of it. SM (00:13:32): Do you think the boomers failed, the oldest boomers are now 63 and the youngest are 47. Do you think as a generation that oftentimes you... Al (00:13:42): A generation, I think as a generation, it is a failed generation because this generation had the ability to do really wonderful things in the world as a nation. And greed, selfishness, the spoiled brat side of it. The parents who had been through the Great Depression in World War II, who did not want their kids to have to go through that and tried to shelter them from it created a group of privileged. A group, I am talking about people that would be naturally in leadership positions or would be, or they went to the best schools. They were given the best opportunities in life that they lost, they lost their soul because they got so caught up in being, quote "the world's only superpower", the world only economic superpower, et cetera, et cetera. And what we came out of it was basically, what came out of it was Oliver Stone. In terms of the bitterness of someone who had been through prep school, been through Vietnam, had seen people on both sides of the fence and was pretty much pissed off at everybody. I do not feel pissed off like Oliver Stone does, but I think that we had a real opportunity that due to our own selfishness and greed, we have thrown away. I feel very bad about that because it is going to affect the next generations. But hopefully the next generations will rebound and find the kind of character that was missing in the, that post World War II generation. SM (00:15:23): When we talk about that post World War II generation, it is not just America. It is in different parts of the world too. Al (00:15:29): Oh heck yeah. SM (00:15:29): Because when we talk about 1968... Al (00:15:32): Active leadership everywhere. SM (00:15:34): England, Spain, Japan, Germany. There were protests in some of the Eastern European countries, student protests, and they were the same boomers, but they were from different countries. Do you see that it is part of the boomer generation worldwide? Al (00:15:52): I think the world was going through certain stages of evolution, end of the industrial age, beginning of the high-tech age, beginning of globalism. We might see globalism rise and fall within our own lifetime because ultimately people cannot be homogenized. International culture cannot be homogenized if they are, I think that all these high-tech companies thought they would create one global society of consumers that would all act like Pavlov's dogs, the same commercial. SM (00:16:26): Mm-hmm. Al (00:16:27): And I think what is happening is we are seeing that there is a lot of resistance to that. Unfortunately, some of it is very violent resistance. SM (00:16:35): What we are seeing in Greece could happen in America, England. And maybe it is- Al (00:16:40): Oh heck yeah. SM (00:16:40): All part of it. Al (00:16:41): England is not as bad as shape financially as Greece and China might be worse off than both of them. So I mean, that is what I mean. These coming years are going to be not easy. And I am just hoping that we have people that can rise up in terms of leadership, good judgment, and have the ability to deal with this because it is, I think, going to become more and more unpredictably chaotic because overpopulation, food and water shortages. You can go right down the list of all the challenges that the world is facing right now. And God bless the coming generation because they are going to need it. SM (00:17:26): The only two boomer presidents we have had, of course, is George Bush and Bill Clinton. And President Obama tries to disassociate himself from this generation, but he is still a boomer because he was- Al (00:17:39): I agree with that. SM (00:17:39): -He was three years old when, in (19)61, is when he was born. Your thoughts on them as boomers, are they just typical examples of boomers, your thoughts on those leaders? Al (00:17:56): Well, they are a product of their time. They are a product of their generation because everyone is. So, for anyone to try to disassociate themselves, that political mumbo jumbo because you are a part of the historical period that you were born in and lived in, no matter who you are. SM (00:18:18): What has the wall done to heal the nation? I know what it is done to, I have been down there and I have seen what is it is done to vets. But I am not a vet, and so I cannot feel how you feel when you go there. Al (00:18:30): I think it is different things for different people. I was of the group of veteran who was against the wall being just attuned. I was one of the ones who spoke out and supported the position that Jim Webb and others took that there should be a flag and that there should be some kind of a statue that represents hope. And represents the perseverance, not only of the living, but even of those that sacrificed. So, I mean, my feeling was during the time of that wall that it was imperfect. It had, I think for a lot of people, it had a very positive result in terms of closure and in terms of mourning, in terms of trauma relief. I mean, for poor people who lost family members, et cetera. So in that regard, I cannot say anything negative about it. But I am very happy that the American flag, because it was pretty snotty of the person who built it. They called the American flag a mustache on their work of art. And she actually did. SM (00:19:40): Who is that? Al (00:19:41): On paper. Yeah, the architect who did it. SM (00:19:44): Maya Lin? Al (00:19:45): Yeah. SM (00:19:45): Yeah. Al (00:19:46): And she deserved to be put down for that. But bottom line is that regardless of the process, you have to look at what has been the result. And the result has been largely positive. So I have nothing negative to say about it. For me it is like, I do not know. I mean I am, I believe in moving on. Has everybody, have I been to the wall? Sure, everyone has. And but did it change my life. No, because my life has been in doing the work that I do. SM (00:20:22): Mm-hmm. Al (00:20:24): That is how I reconciled the experience. But for people who have not had that opportunity to go right back into war zones and work in war zones and find, and utilize both the negative and the positive into something that you hope is beneficial, I think that wall has been an okay thing. But I am really happy that there is a flag. And I am really happy that there is a sculpture that represents the hope of the living and so also reminds people that you can die. You can say people died for nothing, but if you can learn something from the experience, something constructive and something that moves, helps to move a generation forward. And they did not die for nothing. SM (00:21:10): When, you were probably there in 1982 when it opened, what was that day like? Al (00:21:15): No, I did not go. SM (00:21:16): Oh, you did not go? Al (00:21:17): I really, really did not because I felt that I had done my part with getting the American flag, helping to get the American flight included. That was enough for me. SM (00:21:26): Mm-hmm. Al (00:21:27): Because these people did not die in an abstract way. They were not in a car crash on some lonely road. SM (00:21:32): Right. Al (00:21:32): They died wearing the uniform of their country. And it was also part of still kind of my protest against the initial attitude of the people that made the wall. But I did not want to be there. I did not want to be there because I felt it was ridiculous that we had to do such a struggle to get the American flag there. But like I said, I have never publicly spoken out anything negative against it because I feel if it is doing a good thing, then more power to it. SM (00:21:59): I think you have already answered number eight, but when you think of the boomer generation, what are their strengths and weaknesses? Al (00:22:05): I think I have already. SM (00:22:06): Yeah. And you already said they are not unique. Do you like the term boomer? Is there another term that you think better defines a generation? Al (00:22:14): I have never really, I have never really used that. I just have always said post World War II. But if you look at the baby boomer generation, yeah, it is called the baby boomer generation. But I have never seen it that way. I just always looked at it as post World War II. And I do not know that there is another term that better defines it. SM (00:22:36): I think that... Al (00:22:37): Sure. Some historian someday will come up with something. Some historian will come up with a clever break. SM (00:22:44): I know that some say the Vietnam generation, others say the Woodstock generation or the protest generation, or the movement generation. Al (00:22:52): You have to think about how many people protested. It was not the majority. SM (00:22:56): Between 5 and 15 percent. Al (00:22:59): Yeah. It was not the majority. So it is the hype. Maybe it is the hype generation. It is the TV generation. How about that? SM (00:23:05): Hmm. Al (00:23:06): That is probably what that generation was, TV. SM (00:23:10): Yeah. That... Al (00:23:11): Came back from World War II. They had babies and they got TV. SM (00:23:14): That is right. Al (00:23:15): TV generation. SM (00:23:17): Now, one of the things is that this is definitely truthful, and you may agree with this, that this is a generation just does not trust anybody. And... Al (00:23:26): I would not say that. I would not say that they trust anybody more or less than the generation before them. SM (00:23:32): Mm-hmm. Al (00:23:34): And how also, why would not they trust anybody? Man. they were given everything. SM (00:23:38): Well, it is the lies that leaders told them, whether it be Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of China. Al (00:23:43): Oh my gosh. But think of the World War I guys coming back and doing the squatters things and then getting the shit beat out of them by MacArthur. SM (00:23:51): Mm-hmm. Al (00:23:51): Was that? No, that was not MacArthur. Who beat them up? SM (00:23:54): What was the... Al (00:23:55): They had? Remember they had the squatters. SM (00:23:58): Yes. Al (00:23:59): They had, and the guys that all the World War I guys that came back and had nothing. And then- SM (00:24:05): Yes. Al (00:24:05): -Different parts of the country they set up squatters areas. SM (00:24:08): Mm-hmm. Al (00:24:09): And got the shit beat out of them by the US Army. SM (00:24:13): Yeah. They came to Washington and made a, did a major protest in Washington, I believe. Al (00:24:17): They probably got beat up pretty good there too. SM (00:24:19): Yeah. But forget... Al (00:24:21): Did you ever see that movie? What was it about, the heavyweight champion, the Light Heavyweight Champion. SM (00:24:28): Raging Bolt? Al (00:24:29): No-no-no. It was a very positive movie about the guy during the Great Depression. He had to go on welfare and cause his career was over and then he came back and won the championship. SM (00:24:43): Was that John Garfield? Al (00:24:47): No-no. The movie was made a few years ago. SM (00:24:49): Oh, I do not, do not know. Al (00:24:51): Oh, that was a good movie. But the thing is, part of that movie was about the veterans going and protesting and getting beaten up. Because the movie was really about the Great Depression and about how this guy just would not be defeated. And even when people thought his career was washed up, he came back as a light heavyweight, won the heavyweight championship, and I think he got beaten by Joe Louis. That is when he lost it. But he held onto it for three or four years and then he went on to build the Verrazano Bridge. SM (00:25:23): Oh, wow. Al (00:25:23): Construction company built the Verrazano Bridge. SM (00:25:26): Huh? Al (00:25:28): At the end. It was real, if you guys tend to see it, it is a good movie. SM (00:25:29): Yeah, I will... Al (00:25:29): Trillion actors is in it. SM (00:25:33): So this issue of trust, it is, trust is often defined by political science majors as a very positive quality within a group because that means the dissent is alive and well in the, in any government, in any country. So it is not having trust is oftentimes a positive thing, not a negative thing. Do you agree with that? Al (00:25:55): Questioning? I mean, questioning. Not taking things that pays value. SM (00:25:59): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Al (00:26:01): I mean you could say that is part of it, but I think even kids, but kids today, well, I think the kids today get so caught up in testing. It is more impersonal. I think for, because it was TV rather than texting and rather than interactive games, violent interactive games, that it was much more personal. So I guess trust would be part of it. It seems that this generation, I am not going to generalize it, but I would say in terms of technology and the way technology affected them, it is more detached. And you could say that maybe the post-World War II generation was more attached. SM (00:26:47): Very good. Al (00:26:47): Because yeah. And also there were a lot of kids. I mean, there were a lot of kids born during that time so you always had a lot of kids to play with. SM (00:26:56): One thing is, I think I might have mentioned before is that there are more in the people in the millennial generation than there were in the boomer generation. Al (00:27:04): Oh, there are. SM (00:27:05): Yes. There are now close to 80 million millennials and there were 74 to seventy... You were never quite sure. 74 to 78 million boomers. Now millennials have passed them. Al (00:27:18): But you know what I think it is that there were less children per family because the larger number of kids happened. And then, you know what I mean? Families are not, I can tell you the neighborhood I grew up in with this neighborhood I live in now is not even close. And there is kids, but it is not like kids just coming popping out of the woodwork. SM (00:27:41): Right. What do these events mean to you? And you do not have to say, you already talked about the wall, so do not have to say anything about that. But yeah, real quick, what does Jackson State and Kent State mean to you? That tragedy in 1970? Al (00:27:54): Not very much. It really does not because that was not something that was part of my reality. SM (00:28:02): How about Watergate? Al (00:28:04): Yeah, I think Watergate affected everybody. That a president would be impeached. But if you look at stuff presidents have done then. I mean, Nixon was not so bad. There has been a lot worse guys that followed him. SM (00:28:18): How about Woodstock? Al (00:28:20): Woodstock was a party. SM (00:28:23): How about the hippies? Al (00:28:28): The hippies, the ones that did not get burned out? I mean, let us face it, the idealism lasted as long as long as it was convenient. And you did not have the responsibility of having to make a living. When you got up daddy's dollar. If you did not, if you were not dead from drug overdose. SM (00:28:49): How about the Yippies? Al (00:28:51): The Yippies. Ridiculous and troublemakers. SM (00:28:53): How about Vietnam veterans against the war, which was Bobby Muller and Ron Kovic and that group? Al (00:28:59): Well, I think more of Kovic and Barry Ramo and those guys. And I think we were very, those are the guys I knew best were like Kovic and Barry Ramo, and those guys. And I thought they were very, very determined and very sincere in what they were doing. And I have always liked them because I respected the fact that they were being true to their beliefs. SM (00:29:30): How about the counterculture itself, which was included dressed long hair, the drugs. Al (00:29:35): Contrary. I did not like the political part of those veterans against the war I despised. And I still feel that way about John Kerry. I feel Kerry is a big pony. SM (00:29:45): How about Bobby Muller? He is a very political person. Al (00:29:50): No comment. SM (00:29:51): Okay. Al (00:29:51): I will not comment on Bob Muller. SM (00:29:55): Okay. I respect the fact that he sacrificed for his country, but Bob is a politician that never made it as far as John Kerry. Al (00:30:03): A politician that never made it as far as John Kerry in that regard. But Kerry, I have always felt total opportunity. SM (00:30:10): How about Jan Scruggs and all his work with the Vietnam Memorial? Al (00:30:13): Well, I think he worked hard at, I think Jan came from kind of the humble background, and he had a dream and he had a vision and he worked hard for it. SM (00:30:23): And how about Lewis Puller? Al (00:30:26): I never knew him, so I cannot say. SM (00:30:28): I interviewed his wife yesterday. Al (00:30:30): No, I never met him. I knew people that knew him and really liked him a lot. SM (00:30:34): He was a really nice person. Very nice person. But just the term, the counterculture, you do not... Al (00:30:41): Well, I felt bad for him that he had so much angst inside of him. It was not directed to be negative to other people, but inside of him, he felt maybe it was from having a famous father. I mean, I have known other people that have had famous parents in different ways that it is hard for them because they always have to live up to something they feel that people are judging them with. And it is not an easy thing. And especially in the case of this where you have been through trauma, you have lost your physical mobility. And all I can say is God bless us all. I hope he has found peace. SM (00:31:20): The word counterculture, just what it stands for. Al (00:31:26): I think, yeah, there was truth to that word that people were seeking to find a counterculture within their own society, but it was not something that was very real. It was something that was a temporary fascination. SM (00:31:41): How about communes? There are still a couple successful communes in America today. Al (00:31:49): Yeah, the farm is a big one. Yeah, the farming communes, farming co-op. I mean, it is the spirit of the pioneers. SM (00:31:55): How about the Black Panthers and Black Power? Al (00:32:01): I do not know what kind of lasting effect they had. Black Power was different things, but when you choose violence as a means of political persuasion, it does not work. I would say the stuff that was done by those who were not violent had a lot more lasting effect. SM (00:32:19): How about My Lai? Al (00:32:22): My Lai was a tragic incident that was used to try to color an entire million people that served and most of whom served honorably and never committed any atrocities. I felt My Lai political. It was a political weapon that was used against the US government, regardless of the fact that the people that did it should have been prosecuted. There was no excuse for it, but I felt that it was used in a way that did far more harm than good. It did not bring back those who died. And it really helped the people who later massacred millions to be able to help. It has helped them to succeed. The same way I feel now that there is stuff happening in Iraq, it had the, what do you call the Abu Ghraib? What a horrible thing that was. And that empowered extremism. SM (00:33:23): Yeah. How do you deal with commentators? And I have read a couple books where things have been said is that we had prisoners of war, but there were no prisoners of war for the North Vietnamese or the Vietcong because the American soldiers handed them over to the South Vietnamese army, and they did them in. So there are no POWs. Is that the... Al (00:33:46): No, that was not the case. They had prisons full, and they let a lot of them go too. Yeah. No, that is not true. That is a... SM (00:33:55): That is a myth then. Al (00:33:56): That is a myth. SM (00:33:57): Well, that needs to be corrected. Al (00:33:58): There were times when people were shot on the spot in the same way there were Americans that were shot during the conflicts. And there were a lot of South Vietnamese, my goodness, that were just massacred by the communists. So I mean, it was a brutal civil war, but there were prisons full of war prisoners. SM (00:34:19): How about Tet? Al (00:34:22): Tet, I agree with the idea that it was a political defeat for the other side, but it was a military defeat. But it was a political victory because of the fact that Johnson and some of his generals believed that they had the war won. But in effect, if they had pursued it after that, maybe the war would have been over and it would have turned out very differently. But then again, going back to the reality of that time, that did not happen because that was the reality of the time. So that political defeat was part of the landscape. SM (00:35:02): What event in your youth had the greatest impact on your life at home and at war? You may have already mentioned it, just being in the service. Is there any one event that happened at home and then one... Al (00:35:19): No, I think it is a process. I really do believe it is a process. I mean, there are many events, but it is the evolution that you go through. That is the thing. It is the evolution that you go through. And as you get older, you realize it happens over a period of time. And some people might have the event, and I am sure there were some people that had an event that changed their life. But for a lot of us, it is a progression in a series of many events. And you cannot say which one was more important than another because they all had their importance or they all had their significance. SM (00:36:00): Why did the Vietnam War end in your view? And I think you have already responded the impact the college student protest had on ending the war, you felt it prolonged the war. Al (00:36:08): I mean, it was not because there was a lack of political will. But even beyond that, it is the same mistake they are making with Afghanistan right now. If you do not have a government that is credible, and you try to build a central government and you base everything you do on the credibility of a government that is not acceptable to its own people or at least a substantial number of its own people, then you are ultimately going to lose. SM (00:36:41): I have been listing three slogans from the period. These are quotes that I feel defined this post World War II generation. Number one, Malcolm X by any means necessary, symbolizing the more violent aspects of that period. Bobby Kennedy's quote where he says, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that are not and ask why not." And then symbolizing activism and fighting for injustice in a peaceful way, nonviolent protest. And then of course, the hippie kind of mentality, which was on the Peter Max posters, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." Which is kind of a hippie mentality. The only other people that have made comments is the quote, "We shall overcome." Symbolizing the Civil rights movement. And John Kennedy's "Ask, not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." Do those quotations kind of symbolize this generation, or are there some quotes or slogans you think symbolize it more? Al (00:37:51): I am not sure. I mean, all those quotes that you mentioned had their effect. In terms of dominant effect, I do not know. In terms of masses of people that were affected, I am not sure. Definitely TV and movies had effect. The music industry had its effect. And I think that there were a number of songs and slogans and whatever that had a, again, I look at things in terms of when you are talking about a generation, it is not just one thing, it is comprehensive. But the ones that you mentioned, yeah, I mean, they all had their impact on different people. SM (00:38:33): The last question is a lot of different people. And just to respond, it does not have to be any in depth response. It could be quick responses or you can say a few sentences more on people that had greater impact on you. Al (00:38:46): I would rather go through this list and rather than saying, no-no-no-no-no-no-no. I would say, okay, John Kennedy had an impact on everybody because he was the president. Bobby Kennedy was his little brother. Dwight Eisenhower represented stability. LBJ was president when I was in Vietnam, so I guess he had an impact. Martin Luther King affected everybody because the Civil Rights Movement. Ronald Reagan, made me believe that something constructive could happen in politics if you had people that believed in what they were doing. Gerald Ford, what I remember for him saying is, "Let us forget about those Vietnam veterans, they are just a bunch of troublemakers anyway." Richard Nixon, the whole Watergate thing had a negative impact on everybody. Abbie Hoffman Jerry Rubin to me were just a couple of rabble-rousers with the Jimmy Carter meant well and much better after being a president than while being a president. Let us see. Let us see. I think Woodward and Bernstein, for those of us that became writers, I mean that whole idea that you could be an investigative reporter, and you have to add Jack Anderson to that too, and some of those guys. The whole issue of the crusading investigative reporter, as a writer that affected, that affected a lot of us. Robert McNamara, I did not have any respect for him because he was a cold, intellectual, sending people to their death and really was before my time per se. Timothy Leary basically was a Pied Piper. A lot of people had drug overdoses because of him. The Weathermen were basically lost souls, and they did a lot of damage to people who were innocent and people that they killed, and they even killed themselves with bombs exploding and things. Earth Day, I think has probably more meaning now than then because of what is happening with the earth. Although the whole issue of preserving the Earth has always been a good one. Little Rock Nine, no-no. Free speech movement. Peace Corps always was seen as a very positive, and it was symbolizing the Kennedy era. Get out there, and do something for society. And international, do something for international society. Of course, all those television shows, in terms of lasting impact, I think Disney and a number of Disney programs have always had, for better or for worse. I mean, now I think it is more not just because they are older, because I have an eight-year-old daughter. And the Disney kids have not turned out so well. Where back in those days, and that is, I think, the biggest difference, where you had the image that Disney very carefully crafted of family values and kids and his actors and actresses not getting in trouble and all that stuff is very different than the Disney kids today. Not all of them, but at least some of them. The Cowboys Hopalong Cassidy. Well, the whole cowboy, I think the cowboy movies affected all of us because cowboy movies were morality plays. And you had this sense of right and wrong, the sense of almost like Puritan values in cowboy movies. At least in the series, there used to be TV series even up through Gunsmoke, I mean, there was always the sense of justice. And that if justice was not happening on a structured basis, that there would be those individuals that would ride in and save the day and create justice where justice did not exist. So I think Cowboy movies had a big impact, I think of all that, probably cowboy movies. SM (00:43:17): And certainly the Indian was always the bad guy too. Al (00:43:22): Well, Long Ranger had Tonto and Tonto was a good guy. SM (00:43:25): Let me change my tape. We are at 43 minutes. Al (00:43:32): And also Davy Crockett protected the Indian, brought them. If you remember Davy Crockett, Davy Crockett did not want to see the Indians treated unfairly. So anyway, I never had anything against Indians. And plus one of my favorite characters of all time was Hawk-eye of the Last of the Mohicans in the James Fenimore Cooper series. So anyway, for all of us, it is different. But for me, one of my, I always believed in you are with the underdog. And in the case of the frontier, the Natty Bumppo or Hawk-eye represented the sense of being close to the earth, being with the people that really knew it. And the British were the guys bumbling around and getting in all the trouble. The British and the French were the ones making all the trouble. Anyway, yeah. But that is for me. SM (00:44:42): And any of the other names or just did not want to comment on any more? Al (00:44:45): No, I mean, none of them really impacted me very much at all. SM (00:44:48): And you are not upset over the person like a Jane Fonda? Al (00:44:54): No. I mean, she is an actress. I think what she did sitting behind the North Vietnamese, I think the worst thing she did, I will put it this way. Yes, I will say a comment. The worst thing she did was attack Joan Baez, when Joan Baez was trying to call attention to the refugees and to the tragedies and the massacres that were happening after the war ended. I think what Jane Fonda did there was despicable. You can say during the war that she was naive, and she was angry at her father and all of this stuff. But what she did after the war when there were thousands and thousands of people dying, and she did not have the decency because she did not want to speak out and say she had backed the wrong people, that they turned out to be butchers. And at least I have always respected, and I do not see Joan Ba on your list here, but I have always respected Joan Baez because Joan Baez fervently pacifist, fervently against the war. But when she saw injustice, she spoke out. She is consistent. You respect the consistency and the integrity of one's belief. And so Joan Baez is to me, the other side of the universe from Jane Fondant and Tom Hayden. SM (00:46:10): Yeah. Okay. One last thing that I just want to add here. When Bill Clinton came to the wall in 1993, there was a lot of mixed feelings. And of course, Lewis Puller was one of the main reasons that Bill Clinton was there. He had been working with Jan Scruggs and they together invited Bill Clinton. And I remember we had a group of students that met with Lewis at the wall. And since the wall was about healing, they felt Bill Clinton should come, and Bill Clinton accepted. But there were some people that shouted at Bill Clinton. So what were your feelings about Bill Clinton coming to the vehicle? Al (00:46:46): I do not even remember that. I think they... SM (00:46:49): 1993, he came and spoke. Al (00:46:50): Mut I understand why they would do that in terms of their feeling the need for the healing. And he went, Clinton was the president. I mean, let us face it. He was the President of the United States, and you have to respect the office. So I fully understand why they did that, and I do not think there was anything wrong in them inviting him there. Whether it healed anything, I do not know. But I think the intent of what they were doing was a good intention. SM (00:47:18): Last question, what is the lasting legacy once history books are written of this generation, the 74 to 78 million when the last of them have passed on, and historians are writing about the era, the period, and the emphasis they might place on the generation as a whole, knowing that the oldest is still, so... Al (00:47:39): [inaudible] to look back. And again, we do not know how this era is going to play out because the most challenging times are still ahead, and most of us will still be alive. And we will see what happens to what we created collectively over the next, I think the next decade between 2012 and 2020 is going to be one challenging period of time. And that will determine in many ways what happened since the end of World War II. If I have to think about this, I mean, if I have to do a projection, what I would say, because no matter how we come out of it, and I hope we come out of it intact as a nation, and I hope we come out of it with the least amount of suffering by not only our people, but other people in the world, that this was an opportunity. It was truly an experiment unknown before in human history in terms of the idea of democracy, the way the Tocqueville described it, and the way that it was created here in this country. And the unfortunate thing is that the people who had the most privilege, the generation that had the most privilege, was the least respectful of it and almost blew it. I hope they will say almost blew it. I hope they do not say and blew it. SM (00:49:07): I think most people that look at America, it is like looking at an individual person. They are constantly evolving, dealing with the pluses and minuses of life. So a lot of people believe that America will get through it just like they got through the war and the Depression and everything else. But what could be the worst case scenario if we did not get through this? Because it is the world here now. It is not just the United States. Al (00:49:33): And it is a much smaller world. It is a much greater population. And we are more dependent on a limited number of technologies for our wellbeing than we have ever been. And The oceans no longer protect us because of cyber warfare, space-based warfare, computer warfare, everything else, economic warfare, that we are very vulnerable. We are vulnerable in ways that people are now starting to realize that far more vulnerable than we have ever been before. Plus, we have no industry left. So say for instance, if we faced a horrendous attack and we lost a lot of our infrastructure, if we lost a lot of our ships at sea, we would not be able to rebuild them. If we lost a lot of our airplanes, there are hardly any factories left to build them. And that puts us really... This is unlike Pearl Harbor. This is unlike that period. Even during the Great Depression, we still had factories intact, and it was not so expensive to build them. That is nearly impossible now. SM (00:50:33): Yeah, I have read some. And I will close with this, that I have read some terrible scenarios. And that is that many Americans working today will lose their pensions, and there will be no social security and they will have nothing to live on. Al (00:50:50): Well, and... SM (00:50:50): And so a worst-case scenario is such that... Al (00:50:57): External and internal. External and internal, and that could be devastating to the survival of the society. So again, I am with you. We hope in the evolution that somehow, we come out of a tailspin but it is not going to be easy. It is going to require a lot of sacrifice, a lot of teamwork. And the unfortunate thing about the generation that we are discussing is that there is an awful lot of selfishness. There is an awful lot of lack of teamwork. And it is something that, one, I am not a pessimist, but I am a realist and I am putting my faith in the next generation. But I think that our generation has blown it. I think that if we are going to pull out of this, it is going to be the next generation that does it. And that is why the mentoring and everything else, whatever we can find that is of value, that can be passed on to the ones who will be taking over leadership in the next 10 to 15 to 20 years. They deserve the best teachers. And maybe sometimes the best teacher is things not going well, so that they have to learn to be strong, and they have to learn to be resourceful. So I am with you. Let us pray for it and let us work for it. We are going to go through some tough challenging times if we pass through it. SM (00:52:22): Yeah, I agree. I think that the generation that followed the boomers, the generation Xers, never really liked boomers, and were in constant conflict with them and are part of the problem themselves, along with the boomers. But the... Al (00:52:38): I am not talking about them because... SM (00:52:40): Millennials are the ones we are talking about now, and they are a good group. Al (00:52:44): Those are the ones I have to thrive I am having the faith in. And I tell you, with my interns, I have had over 120 interns from all over the world, from at least 20 different countries. And I like those kids a lot. SM (00:52:58): That is good. Al (00:53:01): Good. And I do have, again, there is going to be tremendous challenges coming, but I feel that there is that proof of life and a proof of courage and a proof of intelligence that I see in these kids that, I mean, I am hoping that American kids, I mean, because I do not just deal with American kids, I deal with kids from all over the world, but the American kids, they are just right there with them. So again, it will be a little bit different. The solutions, the problems are global. Solutions have to be global. But I hope that the strength of what comes from our traditions and our systems are right there in helping to lead the way. SM (00:53:47): Well, thanks a lot, Al. I really appreciate the time you have spent. I know you are very busy and I hope the... Al (00:53:52): I am making out the proposal, Steven. You know how that is. This is the time that during this month of the months of April and May, if you do not get those proposals in, you are sunk for the rest of the year. SM (00:54:02): Right. Well, I... AS (00:54:08): Society was fragmented that there became stereotypes. But it is the same thing. I mean, if you went to the other side of it and you say, okay, people that were anti-war, what are they doing today? You find a whole panorama of people doing different things, some successful, some not successful, some having triumphs, others having tragedies. SM (00:54:33): The first question I really wanted to ask you is the organization that you created right now that you are working with, I think it is unbelievable. And the more I have read about it and what you are trying to do, I think, yeah, personally, I think you should be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize because you are doing some unbelievable things. And I do not know if anybody has ever nominated you, but you are doing unbelievable things. How did your experience as a Vietnam veteran, how does that carry over and link with your current work, the organization that you created? AS (00:55:12): Well, it is a motivation for sure because on one hand you can say there is the element of all the work I did on the history and understanding, not just my own small experience in Vietnam, but in terms of the bigger picture. And if you look at the books like To Bear Any Burden and whatnot, it gets into the intercultural aspect of it and how important that is. And especially in a much more interconnected local community, it is probably the most significant dynamic because people of different cultures are almost forced to have to deal with each other. And that can create some things that are very positive, some things that are very negative because root cultures do not change. They can adjust, they can adapt. They really do not change. But there are commonalities in human nature that you could bet you could work with in a constructive and positive. And so when this whole 911 thing happened, at the time I was working in Congress. And I had worked Afghanistan for a number of years and understood somewhat the nature of what was creating that conflict of civilizations. It partly was the fact that there were people taking advantage of very decimated society where the Afghans were very vulnerable because their families, their tribes, their plan structures were torn apart. More than half of the population was outside of the country because of the refugee situation and then a lot more than the Civil War afterwards. But I felt that there were many valuable lessons that I had learned starting with my own war time experience, followed by all the history work that I did, followed by other humanitarian work I had done working with refugees and human rights and whatnot. But then the experience with the Afghans kind of prepared me for what was coming down the pike with a billion Muslims. Because if you think about it, a lot of people always look at Islam in the Middle East, which is really not that big of a population. The much bigger Muslim population is in south and East Asia between Pakistan, India, and then that route through the Malacca straits into the Philippines. That is where Indonesia has a population of Muslims equal to the size of the entire Middle East or larger than the entire Middle East. And in the Philippines, it is the longest standing civil war, which is based on... I mean, actually it is economics and land holding, but it has the veneer of a religious struggle that is been going on now that the Sri Lankan wars appears to be over. It is the longest running war in the world. And so my feeling was because I had also been monitoring the peace process in the Philippines at the same time I was working on Afghanistan, that in the Philippines you had a much better chance of helping create models that would have an international implication between people of different cultures and religions than there would be in Afghanistan, because Afghanistan was too polarized. And also the way the international community was going, it made it more polarized because billions of dollars was going into a non-existent central government in a tribal Balkanized society, divided society of tribes, clans, families. And there was no chance of success with that. And whereas in the Philippines, you had longstanding arm struggle, horrendous poverty, but you had coherent families, clans, and tribes, and you could work on that. And so what we will do, we will do interventions work. We will do... AS (01:00:03): What we will do, we will do interventions work, we will do humanitarian campaigns and whatnot in other places. I felt there had to be a place where we could create a model that would be something that would go against the brain of the tactic that was being done. At the time I started this, right after 9/11 in 2002, because I felt when you have movements that are based upon revenge vengeance, that if you put more revenge, vengeance, and violence into it, you are strengthening the negative elements and you cannot possibly succeed. And the way that you succeed, if you look at those pictures on the wall, same kids within six months, the difference between that classroom and that classroom, you just look in the eyes. SM (01:00:55): Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. AS (01:00:57): Is that somebody cares that they are not alone. SM (01:01:01): Ah, agree. That smiling, it is very, it is like, "What are you doing here?" That kind of... AS (01:01:11): Because nobody cares. And to know that someone cares, not to do their work for them, but cares enough about them to want to see them be treated like human beings, makes it. And their own leaders will not do that. Even with their own leaders, there has to be a positive model showing. But it is not going to change unless the same way that a lot of these problems with these conflicts are generational. Over many generations, many generations of bad habits, I consider as bad human character habits. If you work with the young, you are also affecting the here and now. Because their parents, their grandparents are going to be happy the fact that their kids might have a future. They are still not going to break a lot of their habits because they are ingrained. But at least you calm it down to perform that you get the next generations can have a chance to develop better leadership and to develop more equitable societies. And that was always the plan. That it is long term. It is not something that you can do, go in, do a flash intervention, and introduce some computers, bring in a couple thousand sacks of rice, drinks, so much tea. That lasts for as long as the tea lasts or as long as the rice lasts. But if you can create a situation where people have both, and they have got the tools, they have got the educational tools, they have got the life of the tools, then they can build it. And that they can build it, they will defend it. SM (01:02:55): Interesting. My niece married a young man whose heritage is the Philippines. Marcelos, the Marcelos. They at Geneseo College and fell in love. And they just had their first child. He is the cutest little thing, little Ryan, he is six weeks old. But their family is rich. I am not talking about money. I am talking culture. I am talking about connections, family. I mean, they are all over the United States. I mean, it is a strong, strong family. Strong family. You mentioned that we did not learn the lessons of Vietnam. Who is we? AS (01:03:36): I think collectively as a society. But especially, people in leadership positions, whether it be in government or in the military. There is this idea that we do not have to learn history because we are number one. We are the strongest superpower and we make history. And there was like something, there was this kind of article, I do not know if you ever read this. But at one time in the Washington Post in an Outlook article, they were interviewing 20-somethings at the National Security Council. And the reporter asked, it was what Afghanistan asked, "Well, what do you think of Durand Line?" Because one of the problems there going to be the fact that the Pashtuns are divided. That will always be a factor. Going back to the British Raj, none of them knew what the Durand line was. And then the reporter then said, " Well, you guys ever take the time to read history?" And the response was, "Well, we do not have to read history because we are making history." SM (01:04:40): That is interesting. Yeah, because we had a person at our school that put the... Well, actually, an honor student from Great Valley High School. And we were in a meeting one day and she said, "When was the Vietnam War?" She thought it was before World War II. How did she get to be an honor student with that kind of a comment? So, the lack of history is... AS (01:05:03): But I think that with Vietnam, if you take it beyond into a broader context, into our development as a nation. After we achieved this role of being the strongest country in the West after World War II, Korea in the way was not really a test of that. It was like an extension of World War II, beginning of the Cold War. It was a bridge between World War II and the Cold War. But Vietnam was our first test as to how we were going to conduct ourselves as a leader of the West. And the ambivalence that we had within our own society to what direction we were going to take as a nation, whether we were going to be the international policemen, or guarantor of supremacy of Western societies picking up from the branch, not really colonizing, but kind of maintaining a kind of legacy. Even though you could say what we wanted with South Vietnam was where they would be independent, but they would be more leaning to the West. And whereas the North Vietnamese were, of course, leaning to the East with the Chinese and Russian influence. But it tested us in terms of what direction? We are the leader of the West now. And the Europeans cannot really compete with us. What direction do we take history? I think Vietnam represented that dichotomy that we felt as a nation, which is why there was the polarization. Why there was the, I mean, it was not just Vietnam. I think it was our society in general that now we are making history. We are no longer a part of an ongoing history. World War I was not our war. SM (01:07:17): Right. AS (01:07:18): The Industrial Revolution we were very much a part of. And it helped to shape us. A lot of inventions were made here that fueled the Industrial Revolution. But it is not the same thing as having your economy intact, your industry intact, after so much of Europe was destroyed in World War II. And we really had the leverage. Plus, television and other multimedia was largely coming out of the United States. So, we really were influencing and shaping culture on a very, very broad international, not just national, but international level. So I mean, I look at the Vietnam War as much more than just a little isolated thing. It was very much a part of our collective psyche and our development as a nation, as not an old nation, but an experiment. SM (01:08:16): How did you become who you were or are in terms of going to Vietnam? What was your high school experiences? Who were your role models, the people you looked up to that inspired you? And then what was that experience like in Vietnam? And what did you think about the students who were protesting the war back home? AS (01:08:44): Back then, I mean, it was more of an... You can look at it two ways. One of which is that there is a war going on. You serve your country. But also, the knowledge that it is going to change your life. And I think that for me, it was okay to do it because our country was at war. And I already had one of my friend's brothers die in the war and all of that. But also, it was something I knew would be help me to change me. SM (01:09:24): You knew that going in, you felt that going in? AS (01:09:26): Correct, that is why I signed up for the infantry. I wanted to be tested. And I knew it would be something profound, even though I did not know how it would be or how profound it would be. I knew that I would not be the same person. That it would draw out a lot, for better or for worse, draw it out early. SM (01:09:48): Did you go in right out of high school, or did you go to college? AS (01:09:51): Right out of high school. Graduated what, mid-June? And that would be six weeks later, I was released from training. So, it was a conscious choice. SM (01:10:05): How do you feel when... Vietnam, the two words that always seem to stir people, and particularly boomers, if you are in an audience with a group of boomers. And sometimes even younger people are upset because boomers have a tendency to oftentimes reflect on their life like nostalgia, whether it is good or bad. But I was leading into a question and I forgot what direction I was going here. My goodness. It will come back to me. I want you to talk a little bit more about your upbringing now. Because the Vietnam War, we talk about the people that went to war. So, many people were deferred. A lot of students that had maybe a little bit more money or had the right connections, they were deferred and did not have to go. And it was very obvious. But many of the others that did not have those... You wanted to go. AS (01:11:13): Yeah. I was- SM (01:11:14): But what did you feel about your fellow vets? In terms of... AS (01:11:19): To me, everybody was just people. I mean, I am serious about that. Everybody to me was just people. And because I came from a family of immigrants. And grew up in a place where my formative years, the neighborhood I lived in, in Cleveland, on the southeast side of Cleveland, a lot of people were factory workers and were very salt of the earth people. That it was the typical immigrant experience, first generation. We were first generation American. I was born here. My father was born in Italy. My mother's family came from there. That you do not have an attitude. You have to prove yourself. I mean, the attitude is that you do have an attitude, but that is that you have to prove yourself. That nothing is really given to you. You are not entitled to anything. That whatever you succeed with in life is something that you are going to earn because it is not going to be given. And I think that was the other thing too. Being in the military was a way of proving to yourself that you could withstand the tests and that you could eventually rise above it. I mean, because you think about most of World War II people, I mean, went to school on GI Bill after they served. A lot of people got their American citizenship by serving in the military because they were largely immigrants. First generation, they never gotten citizenship. SM (01:13:12): Right. AS (01:13:13): And this was like an extension, continuation of that. Because my family only arrived here in the 1940s. SM (01:13:18): Wow. AS (01:13:21): So, World War II was really defining because for that group that came in after the post-World War I group, they were part of post-World War I, that it would define them as being fully accepted as Americans. SM (01:13:43): Why did, in your opinion, I have gotten so many different opinion, why did we lose the Vietnam War? Now some people say we did not lose it. I have even had a couple say we did not lose it, we just did not put the effort into it. AS (01:13:53): Like what I said before is that we were not sure who we were as a nation. There were many different opinions. So, we were divided among ourselves. I mean, you can say whether we could have, what could have been or should have been, and how you interpret this or that. But the bottom line, I look at Vietnam as part of a process. I mean, we did not quote, lose it that we were a conquered nation. That we lost to a stronger country and hence, we lost our identity. But on the other hand, it was something, and even it did not resolve that question of who we were as a nation. It was just kind of an amazing thing. Now, what happened afterwards from as part of the progression, you can even say part of a process because a Jimmy Carter presidency was very different than a Ronald Reagan presidency. It was very good. SM (01:14:50): Yeah. AS (01:14:51): Because it has all been a process. And it has been a very fast-moving process going from what could be the richest country the world has ever known 10 years ago to now not being sure, most people not being sure if they can keep their houses. It is just so fast-paced. And there is a question of who are we? Because we are an idea. We are not... Because I deal with tribes that have long histories and that are interconnected. And loyalty to the tribe is first and foremost. We are not a tribal society. We are an idea. The idea of basically that you become some place that you can work hard, you can get an education, you can prove yourself, and you can achieve. Is that still possible? A lot of people doubt, they question that that is even possible anymore within a globalized society. The way the people that have been had the best educations in this country, basically turned against that idea by globalizing and then denying people living within their own homeland the opportunity to achieve middle class, or go beyond middle class if that is possible. SM (01:16:13): When you came home, I would like to know, first off, how you were treated? I have asked that to other people on both sides. Secondly, do you feel that the anti-war movement and the students who protested... And again, when I am talking about the boomer generation now, we are talking 78 million. But only about 15 percent of that 78 million was involved in any kind of activism. But that is still a large number. AS (01:16:43): Yeah, [inaudible]- SM (01:16:43): But- AS (01:16:44): ...number, but it is not- SM (01:16:45): ...how were- AS (01:16:45): ...a dominant majority. SM (01:16:47): How were your fellow veterans, when you were over there, were they aware of what was happening in America, number one? Because (19)67 is kind of the fine point. The Americans kind of supported the war through (19)67. Something happened, (19)67, (19)68, (19)69, (19)70 and (19)71, those five years. I mean, people, everybody went against the war. And people, families whose sons and daughters were from Ohio were against the war when you hit (19)70 and (19)71. AS (01:17:16): Quite a lot of people were not per se. A lot of people were like, "Okay, our country is doing anything, who am I to say?" And also when you came from communities where there were a lot of people that were in the military, there was not a hostility. Going to school, you would feel some of it. But it was all in how you carried yourself. It was all in how you handled yourself. But at the same time, it was a difficult period I think for anybody that came back, especially those of us that came back barely out of our teens, if we went in our teens. Because on one hand, you would experience events that very few people in this country have experienced, being in war. And especially, within your generation. And then how do you reconcile that with the general experience that many people that you knew? And even if it was not in your neighborhood, if you went to school, most of the people would not have experienced that. SM (01:18:29): Right. AS (01:18:30): There would have been very-very few people who had actually had prior military service before being in school. You are talking about 1970, 1971. And so, you had to inside of yourself deal with all of that. And I think anybody coming back from the war, I mean, you can look at now the amount of post-traumatic stress that there is in people coming back from, but again, we are talking about a situation here where it is multiple tours. They were short. In many cases, they have been short tours. But you never know when you were going to be called back. But I think the key thing is that when you are in wars that drag on, that appear to be unwinnable, how do you reconcile that with the sacrifices, even if it is not just your sacrifice, but the sacrifices where people die in a jam? And then you ask, "For what?" It seemed to be clear at the beginning of this current stuff that is going on, that this was revenge for 9/11. I think by now, people know the Iraq War had nothing to do with that. No one can explain the Iraq... I mean, I do not know who can explain the Iraq War except that the Bush family had a hard on for Saddam Hussein. SM (01:19:54): Right. AS (01:19:55): It had nothing to do with 9/11. It had a lot to do with oil. The Afghan War, I mean, it has been dragging on and dragging on now for eight years. And now they are saying, "Well, they did not... The most ridiculous quote I saw was the commanding general saying, "Well, we did not know it would be culturally offensive if we raided people's home in the middle of the night." That is culturally offensive anywhere. But again, maybe it is such that the all-volunteer force, people are so isolated from reality. And plus, these wars have dragged on for eight years. And people that have made careers of this with all the best of intentions, I am not going to impugn anybody's integrity, or their patriotism, or anything like that. But they lose track of reality. That is why I felt it was important for some of us that could be out in the field to show there is a different way of doing it, when you do not lose track of those common causes. The truth is that is one thing that I learned in Vietnam between being in a conventional unit and then being in a more specialized unit that was unconventional. That there is a common base of community. And that if you are away from a large group coming through and raiding people's homes or tearing down their fields, that you start, you can develop a relationship that is a constructive relationship, that is a positive relationship. And I felt that in these circumstances I felt full confidence not knowing what to expect. But there is a part of you that is at peace because you know it is possible. And there is very few of us that have been in that situation where we have been, and I say it did change me. I know what it is like to almost be dead. I know what it is like to be in a totally hostile environment and to maintain a sense of equilibrium. It is not an easy thing to do. And it is not like intervention for earthquake relief, or refugee relief, or flood relief where you are going in to set up emergency shelters for people. The stuff we are doing here we have to become part of people's lives. People who have never experienced anybody from like you from your culture, and where we have to learn the culture. Which is why I feel very comfortable with having a staff of mostly local people that you can establish though that common kind of instinctive bond with besides technical. So, that you know how to work with the local communities who are not very trusting of anybody. SM (01:22:58): That is beautiful because understanding culture has gotten us in a lot of trouble in our history. And obviously, Vietnam being one, not understanding the history of Vietnam all the way back, and who they fought for hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds of years, and understanding that. AS (01:23:18): And how you would be perceived. SM (01:23:19): Yes. AS (01:23:20): Even if you were different, they would still perceive you as they would perceive anybody else that came into their space. SM (01:23:25): Right. AS (01:23:26): And that is the one thing, that I had a high school principal, once people got to trust me, gave me a book on the, and again, I was learning, but she also gave me a book and said, "I want you to read this because my brother wrote this, and he is one of us." And it was a book, I will show you the book, on the history and the psychology of the art of the tribe. SM (01:23:49): Oh, wow. AS (01:23:50): To understand the tribal art. This is how they interact and perceive their relationship with the world. SM (01:23:56): Okay. AS (01:23:57): And it was the best gift anyone could have ever given. SM (01:23:59): And this was given to you in what year? AS (01:24:00): About, this was 2003. SM (01:24:02): Wow. AS (01:24:10): I understand why people relate to art in their environment. You can start to understand how they perceive things. And you start to develop a sense of, you learn it by interacting. But it is also nice to know the culture, the history, and warmth, the form of communication. So, expressions in the culture, arts, and society of the Muslims in the Philippines. In particular- SM (01:24:49): Oh, wow. AS (01:24:50): In particular, the tribe that I was working with, which is the fiercest tribe, the Tausogs, that everyone was afraid of because they were the fiercest warriors in Southeast Asia. But I know that when warriors... Warriors are determined people. And if they are focused, they are very-very focused. And if they can be focused in ways that are constructive, they can do incredible things, incredibly. Or, they can do incredibly destructive things. It all depends upon the relationship, the communications, and their identity. SM (01:25:26): I got to share, I got to write this. Well, I will write this down before I leave. AS (01:25:29): That is a rare book because it was only published in just probably a couple hundred copies. SM (01:25:35): Oh, really? AS (01:25:35): Through a university press in the Philippines. But I found it to be profound at that moment because it gave me a sense of structure. It was not just instinctive relationship, but a sense of structure in how people are conditioned to perceive their environment. And the one thing with this, the most helpful thing was understanding... Read the inscription here. SM (01:26:17): Dear Mr. Albert Santoli, please accept this book written by Ahta Suk. AS (01:26:23): Ahta Suk. SM (01:26:24): Ahta Suk, Dr. Abraham Sedeqi, my brother, is in token of one heartfelt gratitude for all your kindness and generosity that you will always have touched the lives of the, less privileged? AS (01:26:45): Yeah, less privileged. SM (01:26:48): People of this province. Very nice. AS (01:26:54): But the thing in here that really got to me, and this is if you are creating educational forms and you are introducing new ideas, is that if you look at their paintings, in their calligraphy paintings, calligraphy... Let us see what we got here. Space is always full. And if space is perceived as not being full, people respond in a negative way for whatever reason that is. So, and it also means it has to be full of things that they can relate to, that they understand. So, when we started working in the schools, I did not want to bring in educational technologies- SM (01:27:41): [inaudible]. AS (01:27:47): ...at the outset. I had to find ways by which you could replace things that did not work with things that did work. And part of it would be educational technologies. But it had to be able to fit in and keep the space full in a way that people would be comfortable with. So, rather than bringing in computers, educational TV, because a teacher would not be afraid of a remote control, a DVD, or a video that has core curriculum in schools that have no books, where the blackboards are so fucking decrepit that if you write on it, you cannot even read it. And you do not even have chalk. But if you bring an educational TV with a generator, because there is always brownouts. SM (01:28:38): Right. AS (01:28:38): There is not consistent electricity. A, you are not using up as much electric. So, you can be using medium-sized generator sets, which do not cost all that much. And you can afford it when you are working with a small budget. B, you are getting a full... We have this one program we were working with that was sanctioned by the Department of Education National that would bring the tribal peoples into a national curriculum so that their education would have value and they could find jobs. Starting with reading, writing, arithmetic, in the form of Sesame Street type puppets. And the kids loved it because they do not have TV at home. And here is a very entertaining, like Sesame Street with the kids here. And the teachers could feel they were in charge because they could put the tapes in and out and use the remote control. And they still were in control of their classroom. SM (01:29:31): And I was reading that we are living in a world of terrorism right now. But during the Vietnam War, it was not as much terrorism as it was not understanding one's culture, the Cold War. AS (01:29:48): Well, it was the threat of- SM (01:29:48): We were in a Cold War. AS (01:29:49): ...nuclear annihilation. SM (01:29:55): Yeah. So, would this have worked in that era? AS (01:29:57): Not in terms of big power confrontation, but in terms of some of the other things. I mean, you can look at things- In terms of some of the other things. You can look at things like the corps program, the Peace Corps. The Peace Corps was a part of that. You are right. Yeah. It is kind of like the Peace Corps, except that Peace Corps people cannot go into places that are just very hostile. We can be kidnapped and killed real easily. I do that because I am used to dealing in violent situations and just trying to have good sense and knowing how to work with local people. And I do not utilize, I will not use the word use because we try to respect everybody, we do not utilize expatriates as field staff because it is better to have field staff who know their own space, who know their own culture. SM (01:30:56): When you look at the generation that... You are a boomer; what year were you- AS (01:31:03): I was born in (19)49. SM (01:31:04): Yeah. So you are definitely a boomer, you are an early boomer. I know it is hard to generalize, but what would you think are some of the positive and some of the negative characteristics of your generation? I am probably speaking more about the activists. AS (01:31:18): I think there was a sense that all things were possible. There was an unbridled optimism for the most part. I think that depending on what kind of community you came from and what color you were, things were not so hard, you did not have to struggle so much. Education meant something. Now, I do not know, with my kids in high school and college, I do not know. Everybody's worried they cannot find jobs even with- SM (01:31:59): Oh, I know. AS (01:32:00): Well, you know, just coming up- SM (01:32:01): Yeah. I have students who graduated with teaching degrees that cannot find work. AS (01:32:06): And for us that is never a problem. SM (01:32:08): Yeah. AS (01:32:08): That is a big difference because we always had a sense of optimism and hope. When you start to lose that everything really has shifted. And what we have to do, working in the reverse process, with people that have not had hope since anyone could remember, is you are starting to try to build that stuff up. And it is coming down to, I am looking at what we are doing and what we are learning with the tribal people, that will have to be used here too. So I am looking in the future, and I am looking forward in the future to the methodologies and techniques that we are learning by working in these very tough environments that eventually we will be using it right here in the US with very collegial organizations that are community-based NGOs working in Washington and Chicago and New York and Philly. It will be the same, it is the same thing. How do you create hope, education, livelihood that has a meaning in places where people have lost a sense of [inaudible]. SM (01:33:08): You are going to do this in the US too? AS (01:33:12): Eventually, I am sure. SM (01:33:14): Philly needs it. It really needs it. AS (01:33:16): Because it really is about common [inaudible]. It really is connecting with people. And there are many good community groups here. I think one of the best things that happened to me in the course of... also defining how one gets into this work, there was a period of time when I was writing for Parade Magazine when the Chief Editor, Walter Anderson, said, "You are not going to do any military stories. You are not going to do any foreign stories. I want you for a period of time," it was about two or three years, "Where you are doing nothing but localized stories." When Walter had a vision he goes, we have 100 million readers at Parade. Any story we do becomes a national role model. So I want you to get out there and find community-based programs that are exemplary programs of people that are heroes in their community. And you go out there and you find them. And whether it is a cover story, not a cover story, it does not matter because a lot of people are going to see it. And we can do something really good with showing people that are making a difference in their community. And other people communities will see it and they will adapt it however they will, but it creates hope. And at first, I was a little bit resentful because I would rather be out doing the other stuff. But the more I got into it, it really taught me so much. And it taught me about leadership because I was watching people that were good leaders. It taught me about what does not work in terms of politics and how it impacts on social and humanitarian programs. And usually the biggest enemy of the community organizers who are not politicians, we are the politicians because politicians want people to be dependent on them. And so a true community organizer is an antithesis of a politician if they are trying to help create independence within a community, self-reliability, self-sustenance. Because then they become the exact enemy of the people that are saying, here, take your monthly check and then come back and see me, rather than saying, here is an education program, here is how we are going to improve this housing project. We are going to do a community-based garden out in the... I did one, it was a community garden in the South Bronx where they were doing hydroponic farming. They were farming in the South Bronx, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, and selling their [inaudible] because the Bronx is still a farming district. A lot of people do not realize that. SM (01:35:57): No, I did not know that. AS (01:35:58): But the Bronx was and still is zoned as a farming area. SM (01:36:05): I have been there to do some interviews. I did not see any of that. But that is really interesting. AS (01:36:12): And so this guy, he was a local businessman, Hispanic guy. I am sure he was not totally aware of that. And that was completely irrelevant. But he saw that hydroponics work and he also saw there was a trend to a lot of restaurants running natural ingredients so they could grow all kinds of herbs. Just used cars or little vans, truck them around the city and create employment for people in the neighborhoods. So that was a pretty cool story. SM (01:36:42): And you have heard of Benjamin Barber, that Benjamin Barber. He used to be at the Walt Whitman Center at Rutgers, and I think he is at the University of Maryland now. But he has written a lot about the importance of understanding that we have a tendency to want to have strong presidents and strong leaders when in reality our nation will be greater if we have a strong citizenry without the need of a strong leader. Now we need a strong leader like FDR in times of crises and President Obama- AS (01:37:11): [inaudible] people would be- SM (01:37:12): But basically, he is saying, we always need, more than we need a great president, we need great citizens. And that is- AS (01:37:19): Education is critical to that. SM (01:37:20): Yes. AS (01:37:21): People have to believe that education has to have a purpose. And that is what I worry most that we are losing in this country. We have already lost it in the inner cities. SM (01:37:31): See, I think there is some, and I cannot pinpoint it, but I think there is some... we had Dr. Botstein on our campus, and he has been a very critical president of Bard University, a very talented person. And he has been very supportive of elementary education, that elementary education is working in the United States, but secondary education is not. And he advocates ending the senior year, and I am hearing more and more of ending the senior year and letting them graduate at 17. But he basically said that the universities have somewhat failed in many respects because we talked and we were wondering, of all those students in the (19)60s who got deferments because they went to become teachers instead of going to serve their country, but they had no interest in teaching, the effect- AS (01:38:20): And did not stay as teachers. SM (01:38:21): And did not stay as teachers. What has the effect of the education on those students- AS (01:38:28): I never thought- SM (01:38:28): Because I know when I went to Binghamton, members of my intermural team, they had no interest in being teachers. And that is frustrating. Quick question here on the [inaudible] and the (19)60s generation and boomers as a whole, I think even Vietnam veterans too, felt that they were the most unique generation in history, that they were going to be the cure to all these- AS (01:38:53): Maybe the most pampered. SM (01:38:55): Most pampered. But when you hear, and I know you have heard this before, there was a feeling as a generation that they were unique. They were different than anything before and anything that will follow. AS (01:39:07): Well, the thing is, the opportunity that was there and the wealth that was there, the creature comforts that were there was unique. I mean, I am sure that throughout it, throughout antiquity, that there were periods of times, maybe at some point Rome had that at some time, some place in Greece had that at some point, parts of China had that during different kingdoms that there was a uniqueness because they were so better off than any other kingdom or any other country or any other population compared to how the rest of the world lived. And we did have that uniqueness. I mean, we still do. Even though things here are not as easy as it used to be, from what I see in the places where we are working, other places I visited as a journalist and whatnot, we still do not have it so badly. But what worries me is what is coming down the road. SM (01:40:05): See something that you are talking about here, boomers are going to be supposedly changed retirement. I retired to write my book, but I do not plan on being retired. I know a lot of my friends do not either. A lot of people do not look at sitting on a beach and maybe taking a trip once a year or whatever, go and see the grandkids, as the fulfillment of one's life in your organization. With the boomers retiring and the attitudes that so many of them had that they wanted to be the change agents for the betterment of society, that might be a group that can link up if they know people like you exist. AS (01:40:55): Communicating what we have learned and what we are doing. And that is one thing we had not done so well, partly because I wanted to make sure we had something that was real. And also because trying to do that work in difficult places and create the model, I could not be doing everything at once, including administration, which I have to do fundraising, we do not have government money. SM (01:41:19): You are nonprofit? AS (01:41:20): Yep. And we do not have government money. Most nonprofits will survive on government. We do not have government funds. So I have to be continually fundraising and then continuing budgeting to lower than a T. We are in a constant month-to-month crisis as to how we keep things going. And on top of that, as a part of my wartime experience, I found out in 2005 that I got a bad blood transfusion. One of the times that I was wounded and my liver was gone, just about gone, and so you would not believe this, but in September I had very serious surgery and almost lost my life on the operating tank. And that puts a whole other perspective on things as a feeling of responsibility that I do not know how much longer I have to live. I hope it is another 30 years, but it might not be. I have had doctors tell me in the past, I had two or three years to live. SM (01:42:32): Because of your liver? AS (01:42:33): Because of my liver. And here I am, you can see my energy, it is pretty good. And except for this little eye thing, which is unrelated to the liver, I think it is the commitment to the work that keeps going strong. SM (01:42:49): Oh, I believe people that care about others. This leads into my next question, which is about healing. We took a group of students to Washington about nine years ago to meet Senator Aman Musk. He was pretty ill at the time. He passed away with a very sharp period. He had been in the hospital and he had watched the Ken Burns series. But the students came up with this question because these were students who were not boomers. And the question they wanted to ask is when they looked at 1968 and the protests in Chicago and the people being smashed over the heads and all that kind of stuff, and the divisions even within the hall itself, the question they wanted to ask was, have we healed as a nation? And how close were we to a civil war in 1968 with all the divisions? And we had riots in the streets and the assassinations of two major figures, a president resigning and even though we had the walk on the Moon which was a hopeful thing, I think that was a blessing at the end of the year. But do you feel as those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who were white versus black, all the divisions and all the things that were happening at that time, do you think that we still have a problem in this nation with healing, particularly within the boomer generation? I do not think the generations [inaudible] really care, but I am talking about the boomer generation. Is there an issue of healing here? AS (01:44:25): I think it depends on the individual. I really do think it depends. I think in large part that there was a lot of evolution that was done in terms of, if you look at the positive trends in the social elements of things in regard to racial acceptance and a number of other things. But again, it does not happen overnight. It is a generational process. So you figured from the time of (19)68, those assassinations, to now having a partially black president given his mixed race, still most people considering him black, that is from 40 years. So it is like two generations. SM (01:45:09): Yeah, we are the Generation X and millennials. AS (01:45:11): So that is why I am looking at what we are doing here. And again, it is something that we know from our own experience that it takes a couple of generations to get something on track. You plant a seed, you try to stay with it the best you can. There is going to be all kinds of turmoil along the way because that is life. That is human nature. But it takes a little bit of time. But I think that there were a lot of very positive trends and changes that happened. And even with the negative things you could say about the military, the military was a social leader in starting with things like citizenship and bringing people together to the issue of integration. SM (01:45:59): Oh yeah. Harry Truman and that whole integration. AS (01:46:03): And then a number of other areas as well that I am sure somebody in the future will look back and say, well, I do not think it is good for young mothers to be sent into combat. I think that is wrong. Because it is for a number of reasons. One is just because you should not separate a child from a mother unless you have desperate situation where you are defending your homeland on your own soil and everyone has to defend it. But also because it hurts morale. It hurts morale terribly. And I think it is very countless. And I think the one thing that concerned me after 9/11 was that we would become vengeful ourselves. I have been dealing with Taliban for six years and saw the way that vengeance was being turned into just a horrendous psychotic poison. And the way boys being separated from their mothers, because that is a part of the evil psychology of the Osama bin Laden and the Prince Turki al Faisal and the [inaudible]. The guys who created the Taliban, they know human psychology. These guys were trained in the best schools in England. They are not idiots. SM (01:47:15): What is interesting, one of my last efforts at Westchester was a day and a half conference called Islam in America. And we brought major figures in and I wrote a grant, I did a lot of things to make it happen with a very small committee of three faculty members and three students in the Muslim Student Association. And I could not believe, we were packed. Every session was packed, but security was all concerned. And also the Jewish community was out in arms that we were doing a program on understanding Islam. There was nothing in this program that was supposed to be attacking Israel. It was simply understanding the faith and understanding Islam, even though some of the people they were attacking, they checked the backgrounds. But I can understand again about the culture. It is not understanding a culture. And even if you are a person who wants to educate students about the culture, you are an enemy because you are not supporting our culture. AS (01:48:17): The Middle Eastern thing was the worst. SM (01:48:19): Senator Muskie responded by saying that he felt that we had not healed since the Civil War. And he did not even talk about (19)68. [inaudible] Civil War. And anybody that goes to Gettysburg like I do, because I feel I have to understand war, and I go there to understand it because I did not serve and my dad did in the Pacific. But I have noticed that on the southern side, there is a lot of flags [inaudible]. Nothing is ever left at the northern side. And I am trying to figure it out. I am trying to figure it out. And then I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly last week and she said the south has healed but the north has not healed. I disagreed with her. She says, oh no, the south has healed from the Civil War but the north still has a problem. So I am getting all these different perspectives on the healing. And I think of when I talk about the healing, I was thinking about the Vietnam Memorial. I made a point of going to the wall since I got to know Lewis Puller. Lewis met with our students in November before he committed suicide the following spring. And the wall means a lot to me. But I think it is very important for our generation. I think Jan Scruggs' book "To Heal a Nation" is right on. But I wanted to ask you, as a Vietnam veteran, what does the wall mean to you as a veteran? And I know a lot of vets still have not healed because I had been there and I have experienced it. But those that were the anti-war people on the other side, I am wondering if there is guilt feelings that they did not serve. AS (01:50:02): I think it is [inaudible] to the individual. When that monument was being planned, I felt very strongly that it should not just be a tombstone because a tombstone is about you do not heal from it. You agree. And I felt it was important and I very strongly supported it at that time. Jim Webb was the guy that was most up front. But I supported very much having an American flag there and also to have something else that would be about life. I felt it was important that life be a part of it. Not just death, but life. Because there were 55,000 that died, but there were over 2 million who survived. And it should be something when healing takes place, it is the whole picture. It is not just a partial picture. Grief in itself. I know that there is people, I know that there were some, the friends of the Vietnam Memorial, nice people, really nice people, I do not know if they still have a station down there, but they used to and they had grief counseling, they had nurses that were specialists. And I think all of that is great. But I also felt that there should also be, the way that you deal with grief is life, is to know that life continues and that there is some things you cannot do anything about except cry because it happened. You are going to have the emotions about it. Because it is very real and it is very deep. But life has to go on. And so with that, back then, I did not have a problem with the wall itself being built, but I felt it should not just be in place like a cemetery. We [inaudible] as a cemetery but there should be something about it that put it in perspective. So I was really happy that the statute and the flag were there. Because it should be about transcendence and transformation, the optimism of the boomers. But I believe in transformation. I believe in transcendency. SM (01:52:17): So I am not in your shoes, but it is a great quality that Vietnam vets have, and that is brotherhood. I see it. I know some vets that I know in Philly, some of the top leaders in Philly wish that some of the vets would quit wearing their outfits from Vietnam because they are gaining weight and all that other stuff. And they wear suits and that is the only thing that they love them. But they are tired, they wish they would stop wearing that stuff. But I have been to the wall now for 14 some years, since Bill Clinton gave his speech. And they can be whatever they want when they come to the wall. They identify and they all have people on that wall they lost. And I just admire them. I admire the brotherhood, I admire the caring. It is something I wish you could just bottle and people put it on their breakfast every morning. So not only that we did not have another war. AS (01:53:19): It was about adversity. And unlike what you could say, what happened in certain ghetto environments, it was a broader adversity because it was one part of the American society that was not small, it was a minority who did feel isolated. And even for Joe McDonald, Joe was in the Navy and I think Joe felt that too. Even though he became a symbol of anti-war and this and that, he still was very much a part of feeling a part of brotherhood. SM (01:53:57): He served early though. He served- AS (01:53:59): But he still felt a part of it even though he then experienced and got involved with the other part of that experience. But there is a sense of that. You still have it in you because you did have the experience. And I think that is a part of it is that we are thinking about with everything we had and my books, especially everything we had, if you look at the beginning of the book, the preface, I said, we do not want to parade, a monument, or mercy, or pity. We were simply people like any others. Except that what we experienced in its own way, was prepped. And we cannot talk to our families about it. Because if you have experienced, especially those of us that were combatants, I know a lot of World War II guys when I was growing up that would not talk about their experiences. SM (01:54:54): Why did not you talk? AS (01:54:56): Because it is not the kind of thing you share with people because it is tough and you do not know yourself because you have all kinds of people when you are involved and kill or be killed. And it is within a structure, you have all kinds of mixed emotions because you know how to survive it because you have not fully crossed the line like someone who commits an act of murder out of passion, and you can justify if you are fighting people that you could say are wanting to take over the world and do bad things. But still there is those common bonds. We are still as a human being with a conscience, even if you kill somebody that is very bad or you could say whatever the case may be. But you still have gone beyond a line that is a part of our social convention and our emotional convention and how you reconcile that is not an easy thing. And I think that is a root of PTSD and all that stuff is how do you reconcile [inaudible]? And especially if you are young, Vietnam had the youngest level of combat, youngest age combatants. The average age was 19, 20 years old. And you know from working with students, 19 or 20, for your own kids, when they are 19 or 20, when you are going through, it is like everything is just going to happen. SM (01:56:34): Yeah. The first Vietnam vet that I knew was in my very first job at Ohio University. And he was a father, I think one child or two. He was working at Ohio University, the Lancaster campus outside of Columbus. And he had a little office. So Ohio University was a little ahead of the game here, but the students never went to say hi to him, none of them. And I was close to all the students because we had a campus of 2000. But I got to know him. So I was sensitive about the war anyway- AS (01:56:59): Oh, he was only 2000 students? SM (01:57:01): The Lancaster campus. AS (01:57:02): Oh, okay. SM (01:57:02): I worked at the branch campus, which was outside Columbus. And that campus was the most radical of all the schools because they purged from 18 five to 13 five in a year and a half. Some of these I read a book on. They purged all the liberal students out of the campus in Athens. Ron Kovic actually came there and he was arrested just for the mere fact of being there. And it was a very conservative community. And where they- AS (01:57:31): Were they West Virginia? SM (01:57:32): Yeah. And I can remember when Ron Kovic came, I actually went down to see him speak, but they would not allow him on campus. So they just booted him off and they took him off to the prison. They did not care if he was in a wheelchair or not. He was a radical. But what are the other, I know you probably- AS (01:57:50): I have to go, it is past 6:30. SM (01:57:51): Yeah. AS (01:57:52): I need to get home and make sure the kids have eaten. SM (01:57:56): Yeah, sorry. Could we continue this with another... Because there is a lot of questions like personalities and I had a whole section here, but- AS (01:58:03): A part of the experience. But it is not the dominant... I would not be doing this if it was not for that. So I cannot say it was not the dominant experience. SM (01:58:13): If you could sign that for me. Just [inaudible], your name and today's date. I wish I had my other books, but I do not have a [inaudible]. I had three of your four books. AS (01:58:28): But I am more concerned right now about what direction things are going in. I am worried we are going to go broke and on a lot of different levels, forget who we are- SM (01:58:41): It is interesting, a person that I interviewed said to me when I asked that question about did we have a second Civil War, of course they did not live at those times, but this person said, the times that we are living in today are comparable to the Depression and the Civil War. I thought, whoa, and because we have such a potential for people to lose everything and when people lose everything, violence can start, people place blame. The reason why I am in this situation is because of this person or that group or the immigrants are the problem or the people from Mexico are the problem or the taking the jobs over to China are the problem. And or blaming the whole boomer generation. AS (01:59:30): Well what concerns me is the big one is coming. Because inevitably that is what it leads to. And it is not the stuff now. The stuff right now is an agitation. I am more concerned about the fight over food shortages, will be continuing because of low weather patterns changing and water shortages become more profound. And when you have more competing countries that are fighting for the same oil, gas and other things we are like during World War II or right before World War II... like during World War II, right before World War II, the Depression. Then the competition and the conflict between the emerging empires like Japan and Germany, reconstituting its strength against the West. And I am very concerned we are going into a similar period right now. SM (02:00:23): Do you think Japan could eventually come back to the- AS (02:00:26): No. SM (02:00:26): Okay, because- AS (02:00:27): But Russia definitely- SM (02:00:27): A lot of people are- AS (02:00:34): And China. And China, most definitely. I am watching it happening in Asia. And there is... Rivalry is very strong. And the thing that I am looking at is instability among the smaller countries. And if there can be some coherency and some stability among the smaller countries, it might have influence the larger countries. But if there is instability and weakness of the smaller countries with the resources and other countries believe that they can take advantage of it, it will lead to big power conflict. That is my historical perspective on that. SM (02:01:12): Everybody predicts that the problem will end up with Israel and the Middle East, and Palestine or whatever the issue might be. But the- AS (02:01:22): That is a flash point for sure. But the bigger problem is going to be... China right now is very full of itself. And they believe that they had a couple of bad centuries. And there are the resources to sustain everything. Plus, and on top of it, there is the hold onto a system that is an intolerant system, and that the elite, not every Chinese person, but the elite, that whatever the 1 percent that controls the dominance of wealth will get very a vicious and be looking for outside enemies. I mean, here we have a problem with the potential of emerging police state. And with higher technology, that makes it a little bit easier, because it is more easy to monitor people. That worries me a lot. And also, now our dependence upon private security groups and vigilante, not vigilante, but mercenary groups, to be doing national bidding, it undermines democracy and [inaudible]. SM (02:02:33): Oh, we had a discussion just before I left. It was not a program, but some of the top scholars at a school that was at a luncheon. And there was a fear that something will happen to President Obama, and that whoever the powers are that... Anybody that threatens the money market or the money has to be eliminated. And, of course, the China situation is something we know. And historically they have hated the Japanese. And the question is, will they destroy them? And they do not like Vietnam either. And the two historic enemies of China, even though Vietnam and China were linked, is Vietnam and Japan. They do not like... I know there is a relations... They do not like each other. AS (02:03:29): The Vietnamese, right now are a threat. SM (02:03:31): They might have resources there, but they want to take over. AS (02:03:35): They will take it. They will take it in the north. They will just take it. But with Japan, they owe some heavy, heavy vengeance too. I would not be comfortable right now if I was Japanese. This is going to get real interesting these next five or 10 years. SM (02:03:54): Will the Germans ever forget that we beat them either? AS (02:03:57): The Germans have largely gotten over it. I think it is partly because there has been other... Like, Russia was always the overriding shadow. Maybe if it was not for Russia it would be different. But Germany has been more aligned with the West because of that. SM (02:04:16): Russia might be heading... Of course we see some changes happening now with a- AS (02:04:20): Sliding back. SM (02:04:21): Yeah, sliding back. They do not like what is going on in Eastern Europe. AS (02:04:37): Well, like I say, I am hoping that the hard times bring upon us greater, better leadership, and that also there is a way of sustaining some of what is- SM (02:04:49): Three more pictures. And then I will let you go. AS (02:04:51): Okay, some of what is remaining of the things that led to the optimism of this country. Actually, there you go. Oh, that is fine. SM (02:05:08): The one thing I was going to ask too is when you think of... There is two things that happened in the (19)80s that really stand out when you think about Vietnam. It is when Ronald Reagan came to the presidency, I interviewed Ed Meese last week, and Ed says, "I do not remember him saying that." He does not remember. I have got to find the speech where I read it. But it is basically saying, "We are back." And it was a reason. He is going to build the military up and he is going to do a lot of different things. That is what it really meant, that is what he thought. AS (02:05:38): Well, I remember when he said that Vietnam was a noble cause. And I thought that was a really radical but a good thing to say. And it was also during the Iranian hostage crisis, and the country was different, was ready for a different view of itself. SM (02:05:58): Right. AS (02:05:59): That Iranian hostage crisis also was a flashpoint history that altered our perceptions of ourselves. SM (02:06:08): I was taping the whole thing. AS (02:06:10): So, again, if you are looking at all of these things, that historical progression. Remember, the other one was the Vietnam syndrome is over, which is what George Sr. said. And a lot of people said, "Oh, that is ridiculous," because every time we had to do something in foreign policy, we are still talking about Vietnam. And whenever you bring up the word Vietnam, or the word quagmire, it sends shivers down... Did I... SM (02:06:34): [inaudible]. AS (02:06:35): Yeah. I actually go up New York Avenue and get back on the highway, and... That is the only thing I know. No, not that [inaudible]. You want to get to the... Are you talking about the 30th Street Station? Or not 30... SM (02:07:18): [inaudible 02:07:23]. AS (02:07:18): Can you point me on how to get there? SM (02:07:18): [inaudible 02:07:32]. AS (02:07:18): Yeah. [inaudible]. Should I follow you, or? SM (02:07:18): [inaudible 02:08:02]. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Albert Santoli Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Santoli, Al, 1949- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Authors; Bronze Star Medal (U.S.); Purple Heart; Santoli, Al, 1949--Interviews Description An account of the resource Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam and earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.108a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.108b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 147:37