54 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e7438169129d1bbb162338672d8ef976.mp3 2e0d7a3b4776c410eb9af64af43ef337 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kinnane, Anna Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1978-11-29 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 21:53 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55963">Interview with Anna Kinnane</a> Subject LCSH Kinnane, Anna -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Ellis Island Immigration Station (N.Y. and N.J.); Telephone companies -- Employees -- Interviews; Ireland; Cigar industry Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Anna Kinnane Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of Interview: 29 November 1978 Dan: OK Ann, on what date and from what part of Ireland did you emigrate from and for what reason? Anna: All right, I came from Ireland in May 1925 and of course I landed in New York and then came on to Binghamton and now you want to know? Dan: For what reason? Anna: For what reason—well I came because my sisters were here ahead of me and they wanted me to be with them and mostly for employment. Dan: OK now before your entered the States, Ann, you had to go through Ellis Island. Anna: Yes. Dan: Yeah, OK, and how were things then? Anna: Well, I would say the people there were coming—it was fairly good, it wasn't a place you would want to stay two or three days there but to go through which only took a couple of hours, it was all right. Everybody was really very nice and courteous. They gave you a card with your name and address on it, where you were going and your destination. Then when you went to the gate, the fellows at the gate directed you where to go but of course my Sisters met me there which made it easier for me. Dan: Yeah, did they give you any sort of physical examination? Anna: No, none whatsoever. All right he asked you how much money you had and you told him and then if it agreed which they wanted, OK they marked your baggage and that’s all. Dan: Now did you mention what part of Ireland you came from? Anna: County Clare, Ireland. Dan: County Clare. Anna: Yeah, C-L-A-R-E. Dan: OK so in other words your sisters were here already? Anna: Yes they were here ahead of me. Dan: And ah you came over here to seek employment and then where did you work Ann? Anna: At the telephone company. Dan: And what year was that? Anna: It was 19, let me see I've got it down here. Dan: Just the year. Anna: It was 1926. Dan: 1926. Anna: Just a year after I came. Dan: OK fine. Now at that time you went to work for them, how were conditions? You want to describe in your own words your job? Anna: I would say they were very good. I would say that they were really good—Welcome stations there. We worked of course our 8 hours and we worked ah 7 days a week including Sundays and at that time we only for time and a half for Sunday and a day off for the week. No, no excuse me, we didn't get time and a half, we got a day off for Sunday. A day off for Sunday and that went on for a period of some. Of course I had to be four weeks in the schoolroom in the training department which would be able to go on the switchboard. Dan: Now how were the facilities in those days as far as the switchboard is concerned—in other words suppose that I would want to make a call, what would I have to do? Anna: Well you would have to just dial the operator, take the receiver off and well, no you wouldn’t dial the operator. Just take the receiver off and a signal would appear on the switchboard. Dan: I see. Did you have to flick the ah what do you call the ah—? Anna: The transmitter. Dan: Flick that? Anna: Yeah, flick that. Dan: And ah then what happens. Anna: You call the operator when you flicked down the receiver, your signal came in on the switchboard. Dan: Yeah and then you gave— Anna: Then we answered your plug right in and say, “Operator,” and you give her the number and she put up the number and dial it for ya. Of course we had letters then you know for it to ring each one's party lines you know to ring and otherwise I mean it were direct lines. Dan: Yeah, in other words there weren’t any of the crank— Anna: No, no, none. Dan: —machines in existence. So in other words any time that year, why, you wanted to make a phone call you had to dial or call the operator—that would be what they referred to them as Central. Anna: Central, yeah. Dan: Central and then you gave them the number and what did you do if you had a long distance phone call? Anna: Long distance we would have to plug into another switchboard and we had to say, "Give your number, 456 is calling long distance!” Whatever, what numbers that was. Dan: OK and then when you started out, you say after four weeks of training, then that qualified you to work on the switchboard. Anna: Right. Dan: OK now from there what was the next step, I mean as far as training is concerned, I mean you went from the switchboard to supervisor? Anna: Well I worked five years then as an operator and then I went on supervising. Dan: And how many did you supervise, I mean how many girls? Anna: About 12 or 14. Dan: About 12 or 14. OK Ann do you remember about ah what year they changed over to the dial? Anna: It was 1931. Dan: 1931, dial system. Anna: Yes, dial system. Dan: And of course that was, you just dialed—was that just for local calls? Anna: Yes. Dan: You couldn’t dial for long distance? Anna: No, no you had to get the operator for long distance. Dan: Just the operator for long distance, so in other words in 1931 it was just dial for local. Anna: Dial for local, you dialed your own numbers in 1931. Dan: OK. Anna: Gosh I actually don't remember what year they went to, they dialed long distance—it’s not too long ago. Make sure to look that up. Dan: That they had the prefix like the SW or RA. Anna: Yeah, yeah although, gosh I don't think it was more than 10 or 15 years do you? Dan: No—when did you retire from there, Ann? Anna: I retired in 1967. Dan: In 1967, yeah, so that was just 10 years ago. I think that probably you could dial direct then. Anna: Yeah you could. Dan: Now what was the pay scale, that is, as far as in those days in 1926. The pay scale for, not your own salary, but I mean like for somebody that started? Anna: When it was started, I started with $4.00 a week. Dan: $4.00 a week. Anna: Yes, then after 6 months you got a raise of $1.00 and so accordingly every 6 months you'd get something you know. When you got up to the average, I think the average at that time, it was $12.00. Dan: Is that right? Anna: I'm sure it was, wasn't nothing you know. Next year and the year after then they'd increase the starting pay would be $5.00 and then the starting pay would be that, but that was what I started with was $4.00. Dan: Yeah, now the equipment that you used was what, Ann, at the telephone company? Just the switchboard and what else, headphones? Anna: Earphones yeah, the headset earphones that's what they were, like they are now. Dan: I think I saw in the paper not long ago where they ah had a picture of the telephone company where the Supervisor was on roller skates going up and down. Anna: Oh yes they did, they had that in some place in New York or Boston. Dan: Oh is that right? They didn't have that here though in this office? Anna: No, no. Dan: Now was the office located down on Henry Street at the present location? Anna: No not at the present location, it was next door but the same place, you know where the new hole was put in for the Darling, you know, but the old office was where the Morning Sun went in. Dan: I see. Anna: But I mean of course they're back. They have that building back again now so really it is the same place I would say. Dan: Yeah. Anna: But an addition, addition added on for new dial. Dan: I see, so how many employees were there approximately in 1926 you know? Anna: Gosh I don’t know. Oh there must have been a couple hundred. Dan: Couple of hundred, and have they increased that number since then? Anna: Oh yes, then in ‘31, see before they went dial they had over 300 but of course then that decreased it because you know a lot of ones were working there extra and different things like that and they took their severance pay and got out. Dan: Yeah, ah did they have any retirement program at all, Anna? Anna: Yes. Dan: And ah lets see, both of your sisters worked there too at the telephone company? Anna: No, no, just Nora. Dan: Oh, just Nora. Anna: Yeah. Dan: Did she work there longer than you did? Anna: No, she came after me. Dan: She came after you did. Now to your knowledge, Anna, were there any tobacco companies at all or tobacco factories in the area at that time, 1926? Anna: Oh yes, there was ah down there on Water Street or something, ah what was it now Hummil’s, or wasn’t there two? Dan: Two on Water Street? Anna: Yes, I forget the name of them—there was two tobacco companies. A lot of women on Pine Street used to work down there. Gosh that would be easy to find out. Did you know the names of any? Dan: We're trying to find out because our—we can't seem to get much information on it. Anna: There, there, I know there was two because I know around there was a girl there used to come and visit with Delia and my sister Delia because she started in one of those and then she transferred to Sisson’s store, she was there a month or so—she couldn't stand the odor there—and something like Hummils or something else, I forget now. I know that there were two and I think where they were one was across the street from one another. Is that Water Street where the church is down there, that Christ Church? Dan: Yeah. Anna: I think it was that building across the street there. Dan: Oh yeah, where I think there was a plumbing outfit, in there at one time, and you think that was a tobacco factory? Anna: A tobacco factory. I know there was two tobacco factories because there was girls up the street used to work with me when I went to work at 8 o'clock and they were going down to the factory there. I wish I could remember the names of the two—maybe you could find out from someone if they were down there. Dan: Now the homestead there on Pine Street, was that where you lived all the while you were here? Anna: Right. Dan: Of course your sisters died and you moved to this location. Anna: Yeah. Dan: So it was close by to work anyway, wasn't it? Anna: Indeed it was. Roll out of bed and get in there. Dan: Yeah. Anna: You know sometimes when 5 or 6 lay off they call you. Dan: Let’s see, 1926 to 1977 is 51 years. Now how was downtown Binghamton in those days? Anna: Downtown, really, I thought was beautiful in those days. All the stores and everything. Dan: Everything was filled? Anna: Everything was filled and you could go in the stores and get anything you wanted and everybody was so nice to you. Knew all the clerks and everything was like old home week—it was really beautiful. Dan. Yeah. Anna: And you could get anything you wanted in the line of clothes if you had the money to pay for it. Dan: OK, so in other words it was a 7 day a week job and they gave you one day off. In other words, Sunday was your day off. Anna: Yeah that was your day off, but that meant you had to work every other Sunday. Dan. Oh, every other Sunday. Anna: Every other Sunday. Dan: Yeah, well is there anything else, Ann, that you could add? Anna: Let’s see, well then, of course after you were there 2 years you got 1 week’s vacation and then after 6 years you got 2 years vacation or 2 weeks vacation, I mean 2 weeks vacation, and then of course they get 4 now after they're there a certain length of time. They get 4 and 5 weeks vacation and they got double time for Sunday and now they're getting a starting pay of about $200.00. Dan: Is that right? Anna: That’s right. Dan: $200.00 today and you started at $4.00 a week. Anna: Right, right, when I left after I left in ‘41 that’s when they went up—they, we used to, when we got $1.00 or $2.00 raise we'd think we were happy—now $5 and $10 they get. $5 and $10. They'd think nothing of $1 or $2 raise. Dan: But an operator starts out with $200 a week? Anna: Yes. Dan: And of course going up in a supervisor capacity means more. Anna: More. Dan: And still get four weeks paid vacation. Anna: They're getting 5 weeks paid vacation. Dan: Is that right? Anna: They got 35 years of service. Dan: Well, things have certainly changed. ‘Course we got to consider the fact that when you first started, that $4.00 went about as far as that $200.00 today. Anna: I don't know how we lived on it once but anyway we did. Dan: OK so Anna that’s as much as I can cover right now. If I should happen to come up with anything else that I might have overlooked, why I’ll get in touch with you. Anna: Surely—fine, great. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Anna Kinnane Subject The topic of the resource Kinnane, Anna -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Ellis Island Immigration Station (N.Y. and N.J.); Telephone companies -- Employees -- Interviews; Ireland; Cigar industry Description An account of the resource Anna Kinnane talks about her emigration from County Clare, Ireland through Ellis Island and on to Binghamton, NY to be closer to her sisters and for employment. She describes her responsibilities as an operator at the telephone company, her salary, the conditions she worked in, as well as, her promotion from operator to supervisor. She also mentions the local cigar industry. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 39 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kinnane, Anna ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-11-29 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 21:53 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/297e3b31cc26babe5c6393b535a2bf5c.jpeg 865008aa0d68166e13a6b08c62d8ef4a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/528a3022ec88914c59643d1de828479f.MP3 244554363adfb5f4dc91b0a959a67d36 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert and JiaJun Zou Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anna Lewkowicz Biographical Text Anna Lewkowicz was born in Ukraine. She first went to Germany, where she worked in a forced labor camp for five years. Her sister, who was in the United States, obtained the proper papers to have her come to the United States. She is married, has two children and lives in the Southern Tier with her family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 72:03 minutes Date of Interview 6 April 2016 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Language English Material Type audio/mp3 Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Lewkowicz, Anna.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Atrocities; Russification; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AnnaLewkowicz.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Forced labor; World War, 1939-1945; Ukrainian Orthodox Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Anna Lewkowicz Interviewed by: Jiajun Zou and Robert S Person Transcriber: Jiajun Zou and Robert S Person Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 9:54 AM Interview Setting: John the Baptist Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Jiajun Zou: So, this is an interview with Mrs. Anna Lewkowicz, and today is April 6, and now is 9 o'clock and 54 minute. And, so to begin, we want to know, can you introduce yourself to us? What is your name, when were you born? Anna Lewkowicz: My name is Anna Lewkowicz. And eh-- Mary Ann Klish (Daughter): Where were you born? AL: I was born in Ukraine. JZ: In Ukraine? AL: Yabluchnyk. MK: It was called "Yabluchnyk." AL: Yabluchnyk, Ukraine. JZ: Yabluchnyk? In Ukraine, um-hum. What year were you born? AL: April 9, 1923. JZ: 1923. um-hum-- And, what we want to know is, so you were born in Ukraine, when did you immigrate to the United States? AL: Um-um-- I first -- I first came to Germany. I worked up there for five years; then my sister, she was here in United States, and she sent me paper-- to come here. JZ: How old were you at the time? AL: I was-- MK: When she came in nine--, she came August of 19? AL: I was nine-- eight-- MK: 1947. AL: Yes. JZ: 1947? So after World War II? AL: Um-hum-- MK: Right, so she is part of-- Do you know that history? So she was in forced labor camp in Germany-- JZ: That must be a very difficult history for her. MK: Yeah, yeah, she left home in '42 and-- at the time they were, the Germans were snatching people right from their homes to help because all the German men were fighting the war, and they wanted workers to manage the farms, etc. So, they decided instead of being snatched, because they eventually go anyway, they volunteer-- So my mother and her girlfriend and my mother's cousin who is in this history book. And I have to show you the story about it, because it is the same story. Yeah, but they, they volunteer and end it up in different villages not far from each other in Germany. JZ: Right. So why did you choose America to be the place to immigrate? Is this-- So, why is it this country? AL: Yeah, because my sister has immigrated here and brother. Then she asked me if I can come here-- JZ: Right. AL: Then I come here-- MK: Another interesting aside, my grandparents, my mother's' parents came here to this country and were working in the coal mines in the Pennsylvania area. But the time that they came was during the Depression, so they work there for a couple of years and thought that this is worse than where we came from (Daughter laughed). RP: Yeah. MK: And they end up going back, but in the meantime, my aunt was born here and my uncle. So when they all went back, her brother and sister were citizens. So then they ultimately got here and that's how they were able to bring my mother. Because they were citizens. JZ: Did you, so when you first come here, did you feel comfortable. Is there something you remember at the time, was it a good experience, was it a difficult experience? AL: It was hard because I didn't speak English but the-- I-- It was okay. I lived with my sister. Moved about here, a couple years, then I find a job. JZ: You find your job in? AL: EJ. JZ: In Endicott-Johnson-- RP: Shoe making, shoe making industry? (Everyone: right) AL: I was working upstairs for three years, then I get married-- MK: Then she had me. AL: Yeah-- I had her, and then I-- didn't work in EJ--and then I, another one--boy. So, I stayed here because my husband--husband said you take care--our children, because we have to pay somebody, we didn't have much money to--you know-- pay them for that, you know, they watch children. JZ: Right, so, you-- Did you met your husband in here or--? And how did you meet your husband, he is also working here? AL: Ukrainian picnic? Ukrainian picnic. JZ: Ukrainian picnic? MK: My dad arrived here under the same circumstances. JZ: Same circumstances. MK: He was in a camp and he came from Germany also. He came a year after my mother, he came at 48'. And-- In fact, Migolochok, the guy that went downstairs, his grandmother was my dad's aunt. And she is the one that brought him here. JZ: Right. MK: So, that is how the two of them met at the Ukrainian picnic. JZ: Were you afraid when you first were thinking about coming to America? Like-- so do you know if there is already a lot of Ukrainians in here? AL: Wasn't that much Ukrainian. MK: I will just ask her in Ukrainian because she knows it better. JZ: That is great, that is great. AL: немає, no. MK: No, she wasn't afraid. MK: Because her sister was here and brother. She was not afraid. AL: I live with them. JZ: Um-hum, right. JZ: So when you moved here, is everything similar or entirely different from where you lived in Ukraine? MK: Very different. There were houses everywhere AL: Yeah. MK: She wasn't used to that. AL: All people are good people. They are all right. They-- and the church was full of people, because all the people, they come to church every day, every Sunday. MK: No, no, no-- I mean-- Your life, not--not the church, you weren't so interested about the church. JZ: I am! Actually. MK: Oh, oh, you are. JZ: Everything you want to share, we are absolutely want to hear it. MK: Oh, okay. JZ: Did you start coming to church? AL: Yeah-- MK: No, no, no, when you start coming to church here, why did you come to this church? AL: Because my sister and brother, they belong here. So I joined-- MK: Actually the church she was going to in Ukraine was a Catholic church JZ: So she changed her religion? Is that correct? MK: Well, she didn't look at it that way. This is how my mother put, she says one God is everywhere, so whether is it this church or that church, what is the difference? So she said if this church was good enough, and of course, it wasn't this church, it was the old church that's just around the corner. JZ: What is that church? Is it Ukrainian Orthodox? MK: It was Orthodox. JZ: So in your mind, no matter Catholic or Orthodox, you can go both as long as you believe in God? AL: Yeah! Some of those-- something happen down there in Catholic Church, I go some there. JZ: Right. Do most Ukrainians feel the same way like you did? Do they feel they can go anywhere? AL: Lots of people came, they went to Catholic Church. JZ: They went to Catholic Church. MK: In fact, um----.not everybody felt that way, because I remember my mother telling me that, there were people in the Catholic church lobbying for my mother to go there. You know they will come, and say, gee, you know you were in a Catholic church over there, why are you going to an Orthodox one here? So my mother said, well because my sister brought me here, and if this church is good enough for her, it is good enough for me. And it wasn't so much about Catholic and Orthodox as it was about going to church, and you know, praying to God, didn't matter. JZ: Right. So--but-- AL: I remember how Czebiniak and the others wanted you to go there-- came to our house, and the-- MK: See there was an actual gentleman from Sacred Heart that came to my mothers'-- AL: And ask me when I am going to come--going to go to the church. JZ: The Catholic Church? AL: Catholic Church-- No, I am going to-- MK: Go where my sister goes-- AL: Yeah my sister goes, I told him. MK: But yeah, back in the day, they did lobby; to them it was a big difference, but never really to my mother. JZ: So when you go to the church, what is it like? Are there just Ukrainians? Were there different kinds of people in the church that you went to? AL: All kind of people. It is Ukrainian and English service. MK: Oh, are you talking about when she first came? JZ: Like the church she went to, is it primarily Ukrainian immigrants? MK: The church she went to here? Or the church she went to in Ukraine? JZ: Um-- Both. AL: And what was it in Ukraine? -- was an Orthodox church, was a Ukrainian--maybe some place was was-- MK: It was a Greek Catholic one, it was a Greek Catholic one in Ukraine that was the one that was in the village. RP: Um-- Did you have any family left in Ukraine when you came to the U.S? AL: Oh yes, I have sister and brother, but they all die. MK: They all die, they've all died since then. JZ: Due to the--German atrocities? Everyone: No, no, no. MK: No, they never were--um, they didn't go to Germany, they were ah--they were older than my mother, I guess they didn't want them (daughter laughed) tell me, I don't know. I know they all die, they all in fact, during the war, my mother's village got burned. And the Polish came during the war time and just burn everything down, so where my mother's family live now was not where she grew up. JZ: Right, it seems that-- So when you moved here right, you--what kind of people do you see in this community? Was it mostly Ukrainian? Were they--. AL: All kinds--.Slavic-- MK: A lot of Slavic people JZ: A lot of Slavic people-- un-hum AL: Polish, Russian--yeah. JZ: un-hum-- Did you feel--? How did you feel about them, and how did they feel about you? Like did they see you--? AL: They don't care. JZ: They don't care. MK: They were your friends? JZ: That's right-- AL: I have, you know, couple friends, they choose here. And some, lots of, you know, people went to Catholic Church. JZ: Right, right-- AL: Polish church, and to me, all friends. JZ: So people were very friendly because you all immigrants here? AL: Yes! JZ: What about people in the town, in Binghamton, were they treating you all welcoming or--. MK: американська (American)-- AL: yeah, they was nice to me, I was working in a factory, as well you know, I didn't speak English. They was very nice to me. They helped me. JZ: That sounds very good. And, so, after you work at EJ--You worked for EJ, Right? AL: Yes. JZ: Where else did you work? So you stay at home, take care of children? AL: Yes. JZ: And your husband was working? AL: Yes, he was working in EJ. MK: And he had two jobs, he was also working. His aunt, they had a restaurant, a bar and a restaurant and he was a bartender on weekends. JZ: Right, so he continued this job-- AL: Hmm-- JZ: For? How-- AL: Two jobs, because I didn't work and he had two children, so-- JZ: Is this something common in Ukraine families? That a woman stay at home, take care of children, husband's working? AL: She said everybody works-- MK: Everybody worked in the farms. JZ: In Ukraine, everyone worked on the farms? MK: Even when my mother was little, she worked. JZ: Right. So, Ukraine community is very different than other communities because both people work. AL: Yeah. MK: Yes, even back then. JZ: So, men and women were treated equally? I assume. MK: Do they men have the same rights as women? AL: I think-- men in Ukraine-- MK: He was the head. AL: -- has more power than women. JZ: Is still the head even though you do the same work? AL: Yes. JZ: -- working in a farm-- AL: un-hum JZ: So when you were in Ukraine, what do you remember now, long time ago when you were a child, what do you remember? Like anything, childhood activities? RP: Memories? AL: I--I went to school, I was 12 or 8. Then--I finished, I have two 4 grades in the school. Because my parents they want me to work in the farms. JZ: They want you to work in the farm. AL: In the farm--un-hum. MK: She doesn't have other than 3rd or 4th grade education that is it for my mother. They want, they pull her out and say that needed her help on the farms, so they--. AL: Yes-- JZ: Right, so is because they need her to work? AL: Oh, yes. JZ: And they cannot afford to have you go to school. MK: No. JZ: Are you the only child in the family? AL: No, my mother had 9-- children. JZ: 9 children-- All of them work in the farm? AL: Three died--no, no, three died. And-- I went here, and all--. I have sister, I, and I have two brother, they stay over there. And they have three, nine Ukraine. They still work in the farm. JZ: So you remember, you were working in the farm-- AL: Oh, yes. JZ: Anything else you think you remember, childhood friends? Anything about-- MK: Did you have stories? AL: No stories. RP: Did you bring anything with you from Ukraine, like objects-- that, brought for memory? AL: No, I don't think so. MK: No, because she was coming from Germany and not from home. AL: Yeah, and-- MK: And at one point they thought when the war ended, they they came and told them you know you don't have to work here in these German farms anymore. So they heard there was a bus that was taking people back to Ukraine, so their intent was to go back to Ukraine. So her and her girlfriend waited because they said this truck or whatever, really wasn't a bus, was a truck, was going to come and take them. So they waiting, and then my mother said a German, I mean..ah, Ukrainian soldier walked by and said girls what you doing here. They said well, they are waiting for this bus that was going to take them back. And they said no, he said, no, don't, don't get on that bus, it's not going take you home, it's Russians that are going to take you to Siberia, so they flooded to the woods, and figured out what were they going to do. AL: Even then, this was-- hard. MK: So she said well, she didn't really want to go back to her German farms because she thought they were kind of mean. So, she went back to her girlfriend's farm and asked could they work, could they continue to work there. And ah-- AL: They say yes! MK: So they continued to work there. AL: We-- We told them what happened, and he said stay here so long you can, and after, you know, soldiers came and says you can work on our farms. MK: It was American soldiers this time. AL: American. MK: And they you, you know, you're done, and that is how she ended it up in the camp. AL: Yeah. MK: And it wasn't a matter of going back, and that is why she didn't have anything (AL: yeah) because she just left with um-- AL: Nothing. MK: Some clothes-- to to work in Germany, it is not like-- she didn't have anything from home. JZ: Right. So, during your early life, you seem not to hate the Russians or Germans, right? Do-- do you think--look at them as if they are a group of people or you just think that people suffer. Did you ever categorize them as, you know, Russians or Poles, or Americans? AL: No-- No-- JZ: You never hate them--as a group. MK: She just thought that it was wartime and-- AL: Yeah. MK: That was just result of war, of the war. AL: Yeah. JZ: That's amazing, because I think a lot people will begin to hate the whole group of people. MK: Oh right, just like the Vietnam War, everybody hated the Vietnamese-- yeah. JZ: So when you were working in the farms, so--um, is that all you remember, like every day you work on the farm--Anything that makes you, um-- What else do you do besides working on the farm? MK: You talking about home or you talking about Germany. AL: Germany? JZ: Um, the time when you were in Ukraine. AL: I--just work. JZ: Just work? Right? RP: Was this work difficult for you? AL: No. RP: No, it's easy, you were laid back? AL: My father and I worked together. RP: Work together. JZ: Did you go to church regularly? AL: Yeah, sometime I don't feel good so I can't go. But most of the time I went. JZ: So, so, did you have any sense of being a Ukrainian or more like being a peasant, someone who work on the farm, did you ever feel a strong sense, I am a Ukrainian! I am-- AL: Yes. JZ: Nationalism-- AL: Yeah, because today, it was not Ukraine, it was Polish. So I went to school, and I learn Polish, read and write, and uh--it was together nice, the Polish and ah, yeah. MK: back then--ah-- No, it was a Polish school. AL: --not Ukraine. MK: Oh, they were in charge. AL: Yes. AL: Polish writing, reading, teacher was, you know teacher was, Po--Polish. JZ: And that is completely okay to you? AL: Yeah. JZ: What about students, they are mostly Ukrainians? AL: No, all was, you know, Po--Polish and Ukraine. MK: Ah, it was mixed? JZ: So people-- it really didn't matter your nationality? AL: No, people just live together--. we were young, doesn't matter. JZ: You also are a senior parish member here in the church, am I correct? MK: Yeah, she is one of the oldest one. Her--all have immigrated, she and her cousin which end it up marrying her girlfriend, the three of them that were in Germany. He is the oldest one. He's, ah, he was 95 in January, but, he started getting dementia, he doesn't leave the house. JZ: How did you become the senior parish member in this church? MK: [laughs] Everybody else die off, everybody else die off [everyone laughs]. JZ: Hehe, everyone respected you right? MK: No, no-- how did you become the oldest parishioner to-- AL: Oh, I was younger, was here all the time, I went to church, same church. RP: So, I am assuming a lot about the church has changed since you first got here? AL: Um. MK: Yes. AL: They changed. JZ: How has it changed? AL: Before was more Ukrainian in the church, now is all English. JZ: Oh, it was more speaking Ukrainian at the time? AL: Yeah. MK: Oh, definitely, it was all Ukrainian. AL: Yeah. JZ: Because they were immigrants or? AL: All people-- came from Europe. MK: The church was started by, the church was started by, I mean when I was little, everything the service was entirely in Ukrainian. It was entirely in Ukrainian, and ah, and our priest at the time, when I was little, had to say, he was ah, he was ah-- he came from Ukraine just like my mother, so he had similar history, you know, so-- yeah it is a good fit. JZ: But you said things have changed over the years? AL: Oh yeah--in the church. JZ: Everyone now speak English? MK: Intermarries-- oh, I can, I tell you this. There, my mother launched a protest here in the church, she and ah--her cousin and her girlfriend, they all end, the three that were in Ukraine, I mean went to Germany, they all end it up here. My mother got here first, and got married, and then the other two couldn't get here until a couple years later. They didn't get here till-- 1950? 1951? AL: 1951. MK: 1951, but they ultimately--ah, all belong to the same church, and they all sing in the choir, which was all entirely Ukrainian, and the church was entirely Ukrainian. Well speaking, you know there was intermarriages, AL: Yeah. That's-- MK: And there were a lot people didn't understand entirely Ukrainian, so our priest we had at the time, the one we had for 40 plus years, wanted to introduce English into the service. And I can remember, like I said, my mother was, my mother sing in the choir with a whole bunch of them and they protested and left the choir because they started introducing English. And they were really upset about it. JZ: When you said intermarriage, you mean between the Eastern European groups or, like Poles, Germans, or who-- MK: Oh intermarrying here? No, just with English-speaking people. RP: In general. MK: Right. They didn't know Ukrainian language. JZ: They didn't know Ukrainian language. And they were the ones who are asking for English. MK: Right. JZ: So how did you feel at the time, you were angry at the time right? AL: Yeah--I was mad because more people, they want English. MK: There was a meeting. AL: Yeah. They were outnumbered. JZ: Oh no-- MK: Yeah, the Ukrainian-speaking were outnumbered. So, I mean, you know, it was ah-- It was fair and square vote, they just didn't like the outcome. So I think with the choir-- (MK laughs) RP: Now, now, how frequently is Ukrainian spoken in the church? AL: Not much now. MK: No. RP: Not much? So, it's been a drastic change since you first got here? MK: It is been gradual, now what happened was it was supposed to be probably the last ten, fifteen years. It was, there was, another vote at an annual meeting and we were supposed to have um-- three weeks of all English and one week of half Ukrainian, half English. JZ: Right. I read this in the St. John's Baptist Orthodox Ukrainian Church website, they say mostly English, but they also want to respect the old Ukrainians. MK: Right, but now there's less Ukrainian. That rule is no longer in play because--and we uh-- In fact my husband just had to do about it a couple years ago because he was the president when that rule was put in place and uh, our new priest here um-- see, my husband's got an opposite vision for my mother. My husband feels that in order for this church to survive, it's got to be English because there's no immigrants that are coming are coming here and it's very unlikely. So he says, you know, in order to keep those happy, and then there's a lot of people that left. They grew up in the church that didn't know any Ukrainian ah-- you know, to try to get them back, you have to keep the English. But um, our priest has a different mindset and I think there's two reasons here. Um, the reason, um, he thinks if we have some Ukrainian in the church, that maybe somebody that comes to visit might you know, it might keep them here. So he's been throwing in things, um, like intermittently during the services-- put in more Ukrainian. JZ: Right. So, what you were angry about is that you don't understand English and you cannot pray because everyone else is speaking English. AL: Yeah, I understand, but not much. JZ: Right, and is the community also, many people speak English? And is the community also becoming more and more English than-- MK: The Church community? JZ: The community where you lived in here, like the Ukrainian community in general. Was it becoming more assimilated? MK: Oh, it's died off. It's died off. Sacred Heart is more Ukrainian speaking that particular church is. And um, you know, this one not as much. I think, if you look at this church and that church I think there's more, I think they may have, they have two services there if I'm not mistaken and they have a Ukrainian one-- AL: All English-- MK: All Ukrainian, and then they have one that's all English. AL: Yes, it's more Ukraine--you know, the service is Ukrainian. MK: But my mother's never been compelled to go there though [MK laughs]. RP: Well, why would you not want to go do the one in Ukrainian if you believe that God is everywhere? AL: Well, I didn't have car, I have to walk. [Everyone laughs]. MK: But if you did would you have gone anyway? AL: No. RP: No? MK: No, you would've stayed here. RP: You're loyal, you consider yourself loyal to this church? AL: Yeah. MK: Yeah, she is. JZ: Even though many things have changed in this church? AL: Yes. MK: Yeah, and she wasn't happy about it, but she still continued to come. JZ: Did you try? Is that the time when you tried to learn English very hard? AL: Well, I went to night school. American Civic Association. They uh-- MK: They had classes. AL: ESL, ESL. Yeah American Civic, yeah ESL. They teach people in English. They came to Ukrainian community or-- MK: And that was my downfall. When my parents were going to classes and they had to become citizens, so they had to take a test. So, um, my brother and I, in fact, when I started school I didn't learn any, I didn't know any English. I just knew all Ukrainian when I started Kindergarten. I mean I, you know, you quickly learn. So I learned and um, so when my brother and I were in grade school we were helping my parents to pass the test. So we spoke all in English and as a result of that we liked the fact that we were speaking English to our parents because previously we didn't. And, um, we felt more like the other kids in school. The fact that we were speaking-- So that was sort of our downfall, so then my parents would continue to speak to us in Ukrainian and we would sometimes answer in English and as we got older it was more and more, so now my brother speaks poorly in Ukrainian, but understands everything. And uh, I'm a little better at it than my brother. AL: Yeah, she-- AL: Yes, she go to Ukraine. MK: Yes, I ended up going to Ukraine. JZ: So, how did you feel about all these changes? So, your children begin to speak more English, um, were you ok with these changes? AL: Yeah. JZ: So, you never pressed them to, you know, keep Ukrainian language. AL: No-- MK: I wish she had. [Laughs]. I wish she had and I would've been, um-- AL: Well you still----Ukrainian. MK: Well I still, yeah, it was ok because she came in with me-- AL: Because the house I talk Ukrainian, not English. JZ: In the house you speak Ukrainian? AL: So, they learn. JZ: So, you mentioned the citizenship test and oftentimes I think nowadays they say you have to give up the loyalty to your home country, right? MK: Mhm. JZ: Did you have to do the same saying that I am no longer Ukrainian, I'm American. Did you have to do that? AL: No, no. Uh uh. RP: No? MK: I'm sure she did but she probably doesn't remember, but to her she's always gonna, her Ukra-- I mean when Ukraine has got all those problems now, it really affected, it really affects her. JZ: It affects her? MK: Yeah! I mean she's really troubled by it, so she's always going to be Ukrainian at heart. JZ: Even though on the paper it must say you're American now! MK: Right, even though-- AL: I read English newspaper, you know. RP: Have you been back to the Ukraine since you first came here? AL: Yes, just once. RP: Just once? When was that? AL: There was not too good because it still was-- MK: Communist, communist and they--When was that? AL: 1980-- MK: In the 80s? JZ: So, you went back to Ukraine in the 80's? AL: Yes, I went up there to see my sister. JZ: Family visit. So you, I think that's a good transition. When you went back how has it different? How has Ukraine itself changed? AL: No-- JZ: You were a child when you were in Ukraine, but when you go back you are much older. AL: Well, we can stay in the house at that time. We can raise a family. MK: You couldn't see the family other than in the Russian hotel. It was all Russified. Everything. JZ: Russified? MK: Mhm. It was all, uh, it was basically Russia. That's what I remember her telling me. She wanted to go, the whole purpose of the visit was to see her family. And the family had to come to the hotel. Family couldn't go, but what they did was, they snuck there. AL: Yes, they took taxi. MK: They found somebody and of course the taxi was somebody that they paid off. Someone had a car and they took them to the village. But I mean, it was always like looking over your shoulder nervous. AL: We said maybe, four five hours, we have to go in the hotel. JZ: Were you scared? Were there people there scared of this communism and anything? AL: No, no. Well, there was scared to, you know, be protest. JZ: There were protests? AL: Yes. MK: What? AL: Speaking Ukrainian. MK: They were afraid of the Russians, but they didn't protest. [Speaking Ukrainian]. They were, you know, they were weak. My mother used the wrong word there. JZ: So, you see them as Russians more than--? AL: Yeah. JZ: So they're not like Soviets, Communists, but more as a different people. The Russians trying to change-- MK: Well, she calls them "communists," the "communists" [All laugh]. JZ: But you use the word "Russified." MK: Right, they're still communists now. JZ: How has--How has Ukraine been Russified? MK: Well--for me when I went back, and that was in the 90's, I went to the capital of Ukraine and my brother and I--my brother was, went to be a godfather to one of my cousin's kids and his wife didn't want to go because she was born here and doesn't know a word of English -- Ukrainian I mean (laughs)-- So I went with my brother and the biggest thing that I noticed, I was in the capital of Ukraine and I went into a store and I didn't understand what the heck the lady was saying (all laughed) because she was talking all in Russian. I thought well how could this be? This is the capital of Ukraine. How could people be talking in Russian? But that's what it is. JZ: Right. RP: That's interesting. JZ: So, everything, most people in Ukraine, were speaking Russian? MK: Other than the family, yeah and most everybody else was like, well yeah. JZ: Right. MK: You had to really listen, I mean Ukrainian and Russian are similar, but I mean I had difficulties. You know, navigating the city just because of, you know the language. I'm thinking, well, hey, it's Ukraine, I know Ukrainian, no problem. JZ: Right. So, you mention language, so, what else can tell somebody is Ukrainian. So, when you go back you see people speak Russian, but can you find other traits that might show, oh I know, this is a Ukrainian! Is there some other ways you can identify somebody as Ukrainian? The way they food, for example, or culture, customs-- RP: Mannerisms? MK: How did you know that they were Ukrainian and not Russian? AL: They talk Ukrainian. JZ: They talk Ukrainian-- AL: More, they talk more Russian than Ukrainian, but they was Ukrainian people. Girls in a store-- JZ: So they, so, besides language do they dress a certain way? Like, do they, um, greet people a certain way? Like, is Ukrainian culture something different from Russians? MK: They look the same. [laughs] Now that, uhh, everybody's trying to, they're all trying to get Americanized, you know, they're um--the interesting thing is style is a big deal for people in Ukraine because I know we send packages there and my mother would send packages of things that she thought--you know, she thought--. You know, my mother had a different--before she went there she had a different conception of, you know, she left when the place, when everything was really poor and people had no clothes. Like, she said she had very little clothing, and she shared shoes with her sister and all that. So then she was sending packages, she was sending clothes and she was thinking well, you know, anything they get is going to be wonderful. So my mother would spend all this money on sending all these packages and wasn't until we went there, my brother and I, and we said, "Well, hey look, these people are more stylish than, you know like, my cousins were more stylish than I was-- they wouldn't just wear any jeans, it had to see Lee or it had to say this that or the other." They were like label conscious which just blew me away because I thought, you know, here, different? So in other words--they-- even though my family came from a village, and they worked from Lviv which is the biggest city near there, they didn't want to look like a villager--You know, they want to to, so like some of the clothes, probably most of which my mother was sending, I don't even think they wore, like my cousin and that. JZ: What year was that? MK: Um-- my mother was sending--Uh, you know, late 90's she was sending packages, you know, but I'm saying the last--Um, oh probably five or six years ago she was sending packages, but it was mostly to her brother and sister, of course they're gone, and her sister-in-law they've all passed away since then. So, my mother doesn't send anything anymore. JZ: What were you sending? AL: They want money. JZ: They wanted money? I think that happens to every immigrant community. AL: If you send money, hundred dollars, you have to pay another two hundred. Through postage. MK: Well, it wasn't postage, it was through an agency where they actually delivered the money to the person and make sure that--because there's so much corruption in Ukraine that there were some packages um-- I don't know, did we lose one package? We might've lost one because of the corruption, just the post office, and some of the letters my mother would send money in envelopes, letters, and the letters never got there because I think the people in the post office or whatever were corrupt. And so my mother just send money through an agency where you had to pay up front for them to-- I forget what it was. AL: They deliver to the house. MK: They delivered right to the house. JZ: You always remember people in like your family in Ukraine and always send them money and packages? MK: Always. AL: I don't send now. I don't send now. MK: Well, right, because they're all gone. When they were alive my mother did. Interestingly enough, she did, but her two brothers that were here, did not. JZ: Because they were not able to or--? MK: No, they were better off than my mother. I think she was more connected to the situation because she was here after them. Although, no, my um, younger brother did come after her, but he just was not tied to the family he's just sort of the black sheep. But my mother still had because she remembered and she knew how she left them, they were poor and whatever, and now she's got this great life here and she knows that they don't. So yeah, it affected my mother more than it affected them. JZ: Right, so one thing we talk about how you have immigrated here and you seem to like the experience, right? Everything is getting better? AL: Mhm. JZ: Uh, anything you encounter that you may not like? Like, is there anything difficult that you remember? Were you ever discriminated against? MK: Was there any bad times? AL: I do think so. JZ: You don't think so? I'm very glad to hear. [All laugh] AL: Much better than up there. MK: I'm trying to think if there was anything bad-- JZ: It's ok if there isn't because it's very important-- MK: No, there really isn't. RP: How has like the--community outside of the church changed or gotten better? JZ: You mean like-- RP: Yeah, the community outside of the church. Binghamton in general. MK: Johnson City in general--What's changed? Like in Johnson City or in Binghamton. JZ: Jobs moved out? Robert: Yeah different jobs that people have had, stuff like that. AL: I think uh, some people get, hard to get jobs. JZ: Hard to get jobs? Oh. MK: Yeah, that's why her grandchildren all left. AL: Yeah. MK: All my kids. AL: Yeah. JZ: So-- What kind of jobs were the Ukrainian communities doing? So, you mentioned Endicott-Johnson shoe making. What else is there for Ukrainian--? AL: IBM. JZ: IBM? AL: Yeah, they make like-- JZ: Computer software. MK: But what my mother-- The other component of my mother's life, she was with us up until the time we went to school and when my brother and I went to school my mother became a cleaning lady. JZ: Cleaning lady? MK: So she went to various homes. How did you find these jobs? JZ: That's a great question. MK: You knew somebody that was, right? AL: Some my friends work and they knew those people wanted-- MK and AL: Cleaning lady. JZ: Who were you working for? Was it American family? AL: American family. The family was Jewish. They was nice to me. Um-- MK: The rest were uh-- American born. AL: Yeah, lawyer, doctor-- JZ: Right, so--I know you mentioned this, you mentioned you don't really force your children, you don't force your daughter for example, to learn Ukrainian or be Ukrainian in certain ways. So, how do you raise your children? In general, do you just let them do whatever they want? Or do you have certain rules for your children? RP: Was it in a Ukrainian fashion? Like was it in the way that your parents raised you, or did you raise her differently since you-- MK: Did you raise us like you were raised? JZ: Yeah that's what we're asking-- AL: Yeah--I don't think so. MK: How was it different than when you were raised? AL: We didn't have any money. We can't buy clothes, nice clothes, nothing like that. And um, so, was not too good. JZ: Not too good-- AL: Mhm. But, my family, Mary Ann, she you know, she start working, school. She buy herself clothes, nice clothes, yeah. RP: Was it satisfying to see that, uh, you know, the improved lifestyle that your daughter got to have compared to you? AL: Uh huh, uh huh, yes. You know, better than me. MK: I guess the goal was to give us a better life than they had but I will tell you one thing, I wanted to go to college and my father thought that paying for a female to go to college was a waste of money. JZ: Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is-- MK: Common thing. JZ: Common thing. RP: Right. MK: Yeah because he thought you're going to get married, you're going to have kids, and it's you know, money's going to go down the drain. It was a waste and um yeah, it was more important for my brother to get the education or whatever. Although I did do better than him in school. [All laugh] JZ: I'm very glad to hear. What is your position on this? Did you think of your daughter like the way her father think of--? AL: I wasn't against, I wanted Mary Ann to go to college. JZ: Wow. Do you want to empower your daughter to--? AL: Mhm. Uh huh. Same with my son. JZ: Same thing with your son? AL: Mhm. JZ: Did you-- AL: Didn't have that much money, but they went you know, small college. MK: Yeah, we went to Broome. JZ: And you have to work to pay-- AL: I was work. MK: Yup, she worked five days a week. AL: Yeah. MK: House cleaning. AL: My husband work two jobs. MK: And he worked two jobs and then he got a job from EJ's he got a job at GAF, and Ansco Film. JZ: How did EJ treated you? I heard they built a lot of houses and hospitals. AL: Oh yeah, they did. JZ: They treated you very well? How was it, like, everything in your life taken care of? MK: My mother always said very positive things about Endicott Johnson and about the Johnson family. JZ: Mhm. MK: That they were good people. Although we did not have an EJ home, um, all of the homes over here mostly on the north side were EJ homes. AL: And they help lots. MK: And there was an EJ medical. I mean our life really revolved around Endicott Johnson. Because I can remember walking to the EJ medical for -- um doctor visits with my mother and my brother and uh yeah it was EJ medical and-- JZ: That's amazing. MK: Yeah. JZ: Because oftentimes we hear workers don't like the employers, the employers treated workers badly, but EJ seems the exception. AL: Well, yeah EJ they treat nice people, workers. JZ: They treat workers nicely-- AL: They build houses, they didn't charge them which was uh--um not much. JZ: Mhm. Um, you-- AL: Medical was free. JZ: Right, and you, did you spend a lot of time saving money, to send your daughter to school? AL: Well, yes. We didn't, we can, you know-- Pay for--after school they you know, they still have to pay, they pay themselves. JZ: They pay for-- MK: Yeah, we had jobs. JZ: Do you and your husband disagree on things. Like just the daughter going to college. Anything else? AL: Uh-- We was--advantage that they go to college. JZ: Mhm. MK: Although, like I say, you know, my father wasn't upset that I was going, but he did make that comment to me, little know, yeah you know I'm sending you but it's going to be a waste. RP: Right. [All laugh] JZ: Is that something common in Ukrainian families? MK: Um, I just think for the-- RP: First generation. AL: First generation, immigrant families, yeah. You know, money was tight, you know, they're trying to figure out financially how this is all going to work out and he's saying, "you know, if you didn't go it wouldn't be such a bad thing. You're going to get married and have kids and the education is going to go down the drain." That was sort of his mental thought there. JZ: Right, so do most Ukrainian children have the same experience like yours? Like is it very similar? Do you remember any-- do they not go to college or do they end up working for EJ as well? MK: Well, like Mary Harder, she didn't go to school. Not everybody went to college. Um most of them did. Um, most of them did and just because I think, um, we had a community college here, Broome, and it was sort of affordable, so to speak. And really anybody could go if they went part time and had part time jobs like I did. You know I-- JZ: Right. MK: So-- JZ: And did you ever feel more like American? So one thing people say is, people get assimilated and no one can feel the same way their parent immigrants feel. So, did you ever feel conflicted about it? So did you ever notice anything that your children was different about you? Like, do they say, do they say things that you consider-- AL: They, uh, more education. JZ: More education-- AL: They, uh-- MK: I never felt um, I can remember--I mean back then there was no sideline activities, um-- When I was little most everything revolved around the church. JZ: Everything revolved around church-- MK: Uh, one thing I remember when I was little, all my girlfriends had--they were Saturday bowling leagues and I wanted to be in that so bad just because my girlfriends did, but I didn't have the money, so I asked my parents and they said no this is when we clean. So uh, you know, stuff like that you notice it. Other people had more money than you and we had different opportunities, I mean we never had a TV until I don't know when and my father didn't get a car until--you know, we walked everywhere. JZ: Right, did you marry someone who is also Ukrainian? MK: Yes. JZ: So is that something common Ukrainian children-- MK: Um-- Probably not, I want to say, I met him in the church here, but um, for instance my brother he met his wife in college and she wasn't Ukrainian. JZ: So were you comfortable--sorry-- were you comfortable with your children marrying someone not Ukrainian or something most parents felt ok about-- AL: Most have to go, I not say nothing to my son. His wife is not Ukrainian. And she's nice-- JZ: And does not speak Ukrainian-- AL: She is not Ukrainian. She's very nice person. JZ: Sorry? AL: She's very nice person. JZ: She's a nice person-- AL: I was not against. MK: No, she was not against. JZ: Right, I think in your--it seems like in your life it's very individual, everything's personal, like you don't really force your children to marry Ukrainian. AL: No-- MK: Mhm-- JZ: No? MK: No, my mother's probably the exception to the rule. I can think of other Ukrainians that we knew where that was not the case. JZ: Do you recall any of them? Like any relatives who-- MK: Ah-- It's interesting, it's mostly, not in this church, but I want to say in Sacred Heart, they were more-- I want to say nationalistic, always more nationalistic, when was that -- Right, they were-- I know one person, and she is a Sacred Heart, her daughter married a non-Ukrainian about-- JZ: She was very upset? MK: Very upset about it! RP: It seems like the church community here in St. John is very close-knit, because you consider you met your husband here MK: Uh-hum. So, so would you consider just the Ukrainian community in general to be close-knit; are you guys friendly with the other churches? JZ: Oh yeah, is that your community outside the churches as well? MK: Yes, yes. JZ: So Catholic, and-- MK: Yeah. I mean, you know, we meet them, it is a media RP: A clip? MK: Yeah it is a media clip. Definitely. You know everybody in the community sort of speak-- JZ: Even though you go to different church? MK: Right, even though we go to different churches, there are churches under the Pope, you know, doesn't really matter. You know, years ago, it did matter. JZ: How is it--? MK: Like when my mother first came here it did matter. And you know, like I said, they tried to steer people over there, because, but then the interesting thing happen when Orthodoxy celebrated the thousand year, and I think all the Ukrainian that were here that were Catholic realized that Orthodoxy was in Ukraine longer than Catholicism. It was like a light bulb went off, it was like, oh--you know, and when it was like, they didn't realize, you know we weren't like a second-hand religion, hahaha--. You know, it is almost that way you couldn't-- You know, but I can remember Catholics, it was a whole different mindset, I can remember my girlfriend telling me-- She was a Catholic, I met her in high school, she couldn't--If she went to another church, it was like a sin! JZ: Like a sin to whom? Who's thinking it as another sin? MK: Well, right, to a Catholic! It will be a sin to a Catholic! If they go to another church, it will be like sinful! AL: She had to con--confess. MK: You had to confess. [Everyone laughs]. RP: Really? MK: You had to confess, this was sinful! Yeah. JZ: It's Christian church. MK: This was my girlfriend who was not Catholic, but she was brought up in Johnson City here and that was her thing; that is crazy! JZ: I was thinking, so we were talking about intermarriage, and you said you are really open to your children-- as long as it is nice person, right, so does that mean that in Ukrainian community, eventually nobody speaks Ukrainian language if this keeps happening, is that something you ever thought about? Or is it something that you are just open-minded to? AL: No, No. JZ: You never thought about it. MK: Right, she never really-- JZ: So, children of Ukrainian and somebody else is still an Ukrainian. AL: Yeah. JZ: Do you treat them just like an Ukranian-- AL: Yeah. JZ: That's amazing. AL: Yeah. JZ: Do they have to speak Ukrainian to be an Ukrainian? AL: I don't think so -- they have to. JZ: You don't think so? AL: No. MK: No, I mean, my mother seen so much--so many changes, you know, it is even funny for her, well I mean, she is 93, so she is even mixing, when she speaks in Ukrainian, she throws in some English words, it is really comical, because she is sort of--haha. AL: Yeah. MK: She's been here so long that--It's ah -- JZ: Because culturally she is used to different cultures? MK: Because she's been here so long, whereas like our priest, he is been here, you know, less, you know--he, he is newer from Ukraine than say my mother, and so he doesn't, when he speaks English, he speaks English, when he speaks Ukrainian, he speaks Ukrainian. But my mother mixes things up now because, wow, I think part of it is age too. JZ: We going to finish this in about 7 more minutes, we finish in exactly 11 o'clock. I think we have made a lot of progress so far, is there anything else you want to share with us, do you feel something you want to tell us? RP: Do you have any memories, anything about the church? Your childhood? JZ: With these years you spent here in Binghamton--in this church, um-- anything significant you remember that might be important to your life? MK: My mother tells a lot stories about Ukraine, and I was just trying to remind her about, you know, she forgets a lot of stuff. She has told me a lot, so you going to have to hear it through me, but--being, when she was little, everything revolved around the church, because there was nothing else other than working. You know on the farm. But--holidays, holy days were big deals there, you will go from one church, if one church celebrated um-- was named after like-- like renunciation, or whatever was named after, a holy day, when that holy day came, it was like they had a big celebration in that particular church. And everybody from the surrounding area churches will go there, and will be a big deal, it will be a big celebration, everybody will stop working and go there. JZ: When you say everybody, you mean Ukrainians? MK: Right, the Ukrainians in the community. And surrounding villages. My mother were tell me that a neighboring village will -- AL: Blessed water. MK: Right, when they blessed water. That was the baptism of ah-- wow, it was the baptism, so what they did in the villages there was there was a river--and the river will, ah, will freeze every winter, and they will carve out a cross out of river. My mother said they were all, they weren't even have shoes, but they tide clothes on their feet, were all head to this big celebration, and they will all be by the river, and the priest will bless the water, and they will carve this cross out of the river, and they will go for, they walked miles to go to this thing, and-- AL: Nobody have cars! We all have to walk there ourselves (everyone laughed). It was cold, we don't-- you know. JZ: Binghamton is cold. RP: It's Ukraine. MK: No, no, I am talking about Ukraine. This is Ukraine. This is Ukraine. AL: Yeah. JZ: Oh, oh, okay. MK: She was telling me stories, and most everything church-related. You know, other than you know, personal things about growing up, but everything, you know, going to another church, celebrating with the villagers, various things. JZ: So, it seems like people were drawn together more because of religion than really ethnicity? MK: Yes. JZ: So, when you come here-- I saw some videos in St. John Baptist's website, I saw children dancing. I was wondering, did you participate in one of those? Like 1970s, 80s, like the church children dancing? MK: No she didn't. Adults didn't, it was for children. I did! JZ: You did! MK: They sent me--um, it was-- there was Ukrainian classes, religious classes, and there were dancing classes. JZ: What were you celebrating at the time? You celebrating some church holidays or Ukrainian traditions? Or-- RP: Or holidays? MK: Ukrainian traditions. We would always had a picnic and we would highlight our culture, and um-- I can remember before my parents had a car, we lived a few blocks from here, so I can remember getting dressed up in my Ukrainian costume, and walking down here, drive here to come to this church to dance at that festival. And my girlfriend would said, were you embarrassed, looking like that? I never was. I dressed up, and my brother at I waked down-- RP: A pride? MK: Yeah, we really did. RP: You are proud of your heritage? MK: I was very proud, and one of things, hey I can do something you guys can't do. You don't know anything about this, but I do, you know, I was proud of it. RP: Was it nice for you to see that, your daughter took much pride in your heritage even though, you know, she was born in the US? Was that something you took pride as well? To see your daughter kind of want to follow the footsteps? Even though-- AL: Sure. JZ: Your experience, is it something unique? Do most Ukrainian children here, do they have similar beliefs like yours, do they somehow just forget about it? Or people have different ideas-- What do you think? MK: Well--.. Some of it have to do with the way they were brought up, I mean some parents really didn't care and didn't instill the culture, and those kids kind of went off and you don't hear from them, and they don't celebrate anymore, whereas me--ah -- JZ: What makes you think you want to keep this heritage? MK: I instill it in my children. It is an example right there, I got three children. All over, one in Syracuse, one in Alexandria, Virginia, one in Chicago. And my daughter in Syracuse married a Polish guy, but her kids are in the Ukrainian dance group. She signed them up. JZ: How did-- sorry-- how did you feel so much about being Ukrainian when your mother is not forcing you to be an Ukrainian? That is amazing. MK: How am I? Ah-- It is part of who I am, yeah, it is part of who I am. Yeah, I celebrated. And I am proud of it, definitely proud of it. I instill in my kids even though my son is not a church goer. JZ: Any final thoughts that you might want to share with us? Is there anything you feel important that we have not discussed? So anything else--. AL: No--. JZ: I think we have learned a lot interesting thing about you. RP: Absolutely. JZ: This is an amazing experience. MK: Yeah, my mother is sort of--ah--because she has been here so long, she has assimilated. JZ: Assimilated? MK: Hehe, she is definitely assimilated. She still holds a lot of things, she ah-- AL: Keeps the traditions, um--. MK: She definitely keeps the traditions. JZ: Keeps the traditions? MK: Right, holy days and all that-- JZ: Ukrainian food? Music? MK: Definitely, Ukrainian food, Ukrainian music, definitely Ukrainian culture, my mother reads Ukrainian newspapers still and she keeps in touch with Ukrainian lives back. JZ: So I think one more thing that is important to talk about, so when you went back to Ukraine right, so you went back to Ukraine in 1980s? MK: Yes. JZ: Have you visited Ukraine before? MK: I was, I was there in the 90s. JZ: Do they think of you as Ukraine or as American, do they think of you like that? MK: My family? JZ: Like people in Ukraine, do they-- community as a whole, do they ever think of you as one of their own, or like Americans--Do they -- MK: My family thought that--definitely-- JZ: Americanized? MK: Definitely Americanized. It was kind of like-- I will share this, probably shouldn't. JZ: Oh please, go ahead, hehe? MK: When I go back, I was so excited to see my family-- But I felt they were excited to see me not so much as to see me and how are you whatever, but what did you bring me-- I got that, I got that very distinct impression, so when I came back and I told my mother, and said, you know-- I would love to go back to Ukraine, but I wouldn't like to go see family. And she was horrifying by that. RP: Yeah. MK: And I said, I just got the feeling like, yeah it is nice to see you, but-- JZ: What did you bring -- MK: What did you bring me? Because there is just such a definitely difference between our lives and their lives--ah -- JZ: I think your mother mentions that too. MK: Even though we are same bloodline, it is just everybody--my mother always said that they think, you know, money grows on trees here. RP: Right. MK: You know-- JZ: Even though you are hardworking everyday-- MK: Right, we brought my cousin here a few years ago AL: It was 10 years-- MK: Oh, it was ten plus years ago. It was my mother's brother's son came here, and he lived with my brother, who didn't--my brother doesn't have any kids, whatever, he--um, he couldn't believe that my brother will get up at 5 a.m. and get ready for work, and go to work and put it a full day, I mean he thought that he came here, and it was just going to be a party. JZ: Money grows on trees. MK: Right, money grows on trees, and it was like party times for my brother and him that they were going to have all these time together--My brother says, wow, I work, I only get two weeks' vacation a year, and this is my life, wow, I think he got a real education because he thought like hey, life was good. And what we realized there was, even though I was there in the 90s, my relatives were still living under Communism, they were--in fact, my one cousin drove us around, and he went, they still have a sort of like collective farm on the property there, even though like I said Ukraine was supposed to be "Free." JZ: Under Soviet Union? MK: You know, haha. He went to this collective farm and stole gas to put-- my brother and I were so nervous, like he is ripping off gas of from this place so he can drive us around, but, but, he thought nothing happen. It was like they owe me. They owe me. JZ: They owe you--? MK: That was his feeling, you know, these were just Communists anyway, they are ripping us off, and we going to rip them off. MK: I mean a totally, totally, totally different life then like I said, I went there, wasn't like we are so glad to see you, oh my god, it is our flesh of blood, whatever, okay--. nice to see you, but what do you got in that suitcase? RP: Yeah. MK: It just shows-- the, sort of like time work, they still back in the Communist, even though-- JZ: Also, the image of America! RP: Yeah, the American dream. MK: It still lives today, it really does. JZ: You feel the same way as your daughter feels about? People in Ukraine? AL: Yeah-- MK: Yeah, she knows it. Just by virtue of--wow, I think the same thing happen to her over there, but it was really brought into focus when I was there. JZ: Do you plan to go back to Ukraine anytime soon in the future? MK: Wow. When it is safer [laughs]. JZ: Wow, thank you so much for this amazing interview, I am very glad to meet you. RP: I appreciat it. JZ: I hope you have a very nice day. MK: Wow. It was a pleasure! JZ: Thank you, I wish you drive safely home and have a good day! MK: We lived up the street, hehe. JZ: Oh, you lived up the street! (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Anna Lewkowicz Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lewkowicz, Anna ; Zou, Robert ; Zou, JiaJun Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Anna Lewkowicz was born in Ukraine. She first went to Germany, where she worked in a forced labor camp for five years. Her sister, who was in the United States, obtained the proper papers to have her come to the United States. She is married, has two children and lives in the Southern Tier with her family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Anna Lewkowicz.MP3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-06 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 72:03 Subject The topic of the resource Lewkowicz, Anna.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Atrocities; Russification; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bb23ca81afa10bb7a1b6446c9b314cca.mp3 272787c7f8f1b38f911d872c767b87e6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0a93bdd4d97af5cafc7cf92e9f290d3b.mp3 59806ddda069b14f000d579f35f45e03 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Spisak, Anne Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1977-12-29 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:37 Minutes; 11:26 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56029">Interview with Anne Spisak</a> Subject LCSH Spisak, Anne -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Cigar industry; General Cigar Factory; Perl Bakery Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Anne Spisak Interviewed by: Nettie Polityo Date of interview: 29 December 1977 Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo talking to Anne Spisak of 43 Bernice St., Johnson City on Dec. 29, 1977. I understand you worked in a cigar factory here in Binghamton some years ago. We are especially interested in this industry because we don’t know much about it. Why don’t we start with the time you started work there—just tell me—how you got the job, what you did, what other people did to prepare the tobacco and make the cigars and just everything you remember about the operation of the factory. OK Anne— Anne: I started working I think about 1929, I think I was around fifteen and I went to the General Cigar Factory—they asked our age, I told them I was eighteen which I was only fifteen. Whether I was supposed to lie or not but I don't know but I did. Then they gave me a job which was examiner. I liked the job. There was four people on the machine to work—one was a feeder, one was a binder and a wrapper and I was an examiner. I had to feel the cigars for their size, for their weight and the cigar. I had a box and there was 500 cigars in a box. I don't know what we got paid by the box but our average pay for the week was $12, so I think that it would be about 30 cents an hour. As for as I would figure it now. And I enjoyed it, I had a nice boss named Mr. Lawrence and once in a while he had his brother which his name was Lorenzo which I couldn't figure that out because they were both brothers. One of them bought a restaurant on Front St., a spaghetti place. The cigar factory, I think closed down for what reason I don' t know. Nettie: Excuse me, Anne, do you have any idea when that closed down? Anne: I don't know, it wasn't too long after. Nettie: Before you tell me about the closing, how about telling me about the operation what you were actually doing? Anne: I had to feel the cigars, it was on a big machine, feel the cigar for size and I had to put them in the box and if they didn’t match just right you had to take them out and patch them up—if there was a little defect in the tobacco you had to patch them up with little glue, we had our glue to put on, and the machine would operate like a conveyor and had to go to a place fast. If I thought I was a little behind, then I would put them in a big bin then I would take my time and when I had recess or noon, I would patch them up again. And if the big bosses came around they would put their hand in and stop the operation—fill those out, patch them up and start working again. The girls on the machine would help us because we could not operate any further until everything was done. And the big bosses were from Pennsylvania, one of the boss's name was Mr. Joseph, a big fat man with a big cigar in his mouth, is all I can remember. They were pleasant, no one was ever harsh. Then when they came around I had age on my mind all the time because I was afraid they were going to throw me out and I did want work and because I had to work. I figure I had to at that time. We didn't have any coffee breaks as far as I can remember. Nettie: You never had any coffee breaks? Anne: Not that I remember. Nettie: You just kept on working? Anne: Just kept right on working ’til noon, as far as I remember. The windows had to be closed in the place on account of the tobacco drying up. Nettie: For the humidity? Anne: Yeah. Nettie: What kind of people worked there—what nationalities? Anne: I think it was all kinds, mostly women. The men had the machine jobs or like repair men. Nettie: Did you have any familiarity with the machine jobs? Any jobs? Anne: The first one was a feeder—where they put in a big long tobacco into the machine that would feed it. And the other operation was a wrapper—was a machine that you would wrap it, you know, and the cigar would roll. And the third one—was the top of the process already of the cigar and I already had the finished product. Nettie: How did they pay you—by the hour or by the week? Anne: I think they paid us by the 500 can—cigars—500 cigars. You had to make 500 cigars in the can—to put in a can… You were paid by that—every 500—so it ran about 30¢ hour by the pay I got, so I got $12 a week. That was big money at that time. Nettie: How did you commute back and forth from Endicott? Anne: Street car. I don't know whether it was a nickel or dime for the street car, from Endicott to Binghamton. Once I got off on the Binghamton line and it was an extra and I didn't have the money. I started crying. Then finally a man gave me the dime. Never been without a dime. Nettie: Embarrassing. Anne: I didn't realize I had to pay the extra after the arch—in Binghamton. Nettie: Certain Zoning. Anne: I didn't realize it was Binghamton—I never traveled before, we never had cars, nobody had a car, so I was never in Binghamton, so I didn't know it was a Binghamton line. Nettie: The men were on the machines and the ladies did the other things? Anne: Right—and the lady bosses— Nettie: What were their names? Anne: All I could remember was Celia Shawn and then she married a Barnes. I don't know if she is living or not. Nettie: Many of these people have passed away? Anne: Right—but all I know was her name was Shawn, she married a Barnes and lived in Endwell. I saw her a few times, I liked her. Nettie: Did they make anything else besides cigars—like chewing tobacco, snuff? Anne: They must’ve. I don't remember because I was on the machine floor. I don't know the bottom floor—I don't know—so I even asked this man today, "Did they pack them in boxes?" He said, "Yeah.” Nettie: Cigars? Yeah. Anne: I didn't even know that—you know you don't pay attention too much when you are working—you were only doing your operation. I don't know what was going on the other section. Nettie: You were only working—doing your job? Anne: Right—right. Nettie: Did they ever have a union? Anne: No, no not that I know of. Nettie: Did they ever strike for more money? Anne: No, we didn't know what a strike was—everybody wanted a job. Nettie: What brands did they make? Anne: William Penn and White Owl—those two I remember. Nettie: Those are familiar. Did they make expensive brands? Anne: No, not that I know of. Nettie: Well, the conditions in the factory—was it smelly, was it dusty from the tobacco? Anne: Well it smells, but I didn't mind it. Nettie: That smell didn't bother you—so many of the ladies, it did bother them. Anne: It didn't bother me at all and I enjoyed working there. Nettie: I guess they had to have the windows closed— Anne: Yes, because of the tobacco—it would dry the tobacco, more. Nettie: How about the facilities for women—did they have couches for women if they became ill in bathrooms? Anne: No—I don’t remember— Nettie: Everything was crude—wasn't it? Anne: No, I don't remember at all , I don't remember. Nettie: Did they have more than one shift?  Anne: No I don't remember anything about that, that I don’t remember. And we had to wear aprons, green aprons. Nettie: Were they given to you? Anne: No, we had to buy them—green wraparound with a pocket—you had to wear a dress and apron or just the apron. Some girls just wore the apron.  Nettie: That was the standard gear at the time? Anne: Green aprons, yes. Nettie: Did anyone ever snitch some cigars in their pocket? Anne: Yes, I suppose some did but I never did—I took it if it were a big one—one they didn’t—one out of the ordinary or a little one sometime but that was like a joke—my father smoked cigars but I wouldn't bring them home, he wouldn't want that because that was stealing. Nettie: Did you say you had to pack them together—was that a mold? Anne: No, the machine is—ok—the conveyor ‘til about here the big machine—that lady would have tobacco this long—tobacco comes this long—when it's dry. Nettie: Wasn’t there some sort of center that had to be taken out? Anne: There was a vein, yeah, it is was too hard, I think, out. Nettie: Who took that out? Anne: It must’ve been on the feeding machine because the feeding starts the process.  Nettie: They put that tobacco and then they take the vein out in that feeding machine.  Anne: I think if it was rough—it would do it itself—I think the machine would do it itself. Then the next process would go—it was big as this—it would have a layer of wrapper already, the tobacco would come from there and go to another process. Nettie: Didn’t you have to do this by hand? Anne: No, by machine, no this was all by machine.  Nettie: After this was cut, and the wrapper was on the bottom—tobacco sort of skimmed on top of that.  Anne: The next process already was a smaller one—this was another layer and then that process would come to this one—and it would roll it automatically and I would get the full cigar. Nettie: How about the wrapper? It’s on the bottom and it would skim to this other machine. What was the third machine? Anne: She would have to put like a layer—like to make kolachki layer—and then that would wrap around the machine just automatically would roll it. And then through the next process—the cigar would come out a cigar already—and sometimes they were soft or hard— Nettie: —you had to feel them if they were soft or hard— Anne: Then we had this little hole—if you didn't think they were just right you put them through the hole and if it didn't go through the hole you knew it was a reject. Then you had to throw it back to have the right size—because you know if you buy a box you want them to be the right size because you didn't want them to be bigger or smaller—and sometimes if the patches—if sometimes there was a hole on it, the tobacco was not right size—you would put it on that machine and you'd see a hole—see in there—and she would give me a cigar anyway—again—I would have it all—already rolled up then I would see a hole in it and I would take a little tobacco that was a reject and put it on top of reject with glue, and make it look like not a reject and we patch them up. The girls would put it in their mouths, which I never did. Nettie: Why did they put it in their mouth? Anne: They pasted them that way—I don't know how they did it but they pasted them—putting them in their mouth. Nettie: I should think if they had the paste they would paste them with their fingers. Anne: Right. No, they put it in their mouth. Nettie: Do you think they wanted to taste the tobacco? Anne: Maybe. I had the glue just like the white glue, patch it up, cut a piece a little bit and patch so it would be even with the cigar, because cigar is rolled. Then you see that cigar has a big vein that has to go—should have a smooth cigar, you take a little bit of tobacco, cut it up to patch the reject, the way the vein goes—can't go against the grain. Nettie: That was interesting. Now after you got the cigar you felt it, after you had to patch it or not, it was hard, it was a good cigar, but if spongy it was a reject—then after a reject you return it to the girl— Anne: —return it to the grinder and it goes all over—she will have to correct it. Then we have a big can— Nettie: Now when you had it wrapped—when do you see the hole—through paper wrapper? Anne: No, it was tobacco. Nettie: Wait, do you know what I am thinking of—paper wrapper? Anne: No, tobacco. Then— Nettie: Then they put the bands on. Anne: I don't know what they did. Then I put them in these cans of 500—top of can was open—had sides, back and bottom—you put the cigar in there—there was 500—how we were paid and then the boy come and took the cigars out and then started again. First job—you call it a feeder—long tobacco put into the machine and then it takes the vein of tobacco and chops it off. No. 2—called binder—binds already tobacco for them. Nettie: What is rollers? Anne: That—must be another department—downstairs. No. 3 - wrapper for cigars top of tobacco—I got the finished product. Nettie: In other words yours are machine made. Anne: Yes, they are all machine made. Nettie: Maybe those that were hand made were the expensive ones. Anne: They used to make the hand made on Water St.—someplace, someplace. Nettie: Now at your place they were machine made? I thought they were all hand made. Anne: No, I'd go back—if that was there I'd go back there—I loved that job—that’s the only job I liked. EJ—was one piece work—everybody was always fighting for lousy coupons—I was in EJ too, about a year. Nettie: How long did you work there? Anne: I worked there 2 years. You did the same job over and over. Nettie: When did you go to EJ? Anne: I don't know when I went to EJ before or after—I know I didn't work when I got married. I first had a job in EJ and then I went there—I don't know— Nettie: Did they pay better at EJ? Anne: No, I did not like EJ—I liked cigar factory better. I think I liked the work better because I didn't like working on a machine.  Nettie: After you left here, you got married? Anne: Yes. Nettie: What did you do after you got married—stay home? Anne: Got a job in EJ again. Nettie: Went back to EJ again. Anne: Good ol’ EJ and polished shoes. Nettie: Where did you work in EJ? Anne: That was in Endicott. Nettie: Where was that located? Anne: North St.—Fine Welt on 3rd floor with all men—5 women—I polished shoes—how lucky you were. Nettie: You polished shoes—were they ladies’ shoes or men's shoes? Anne: Men's shoes. Harry Spry was my boss—I liked that but after I was laid off. Nettie: How about telling about your family? Anne: Yes, first he worked as a bed laster then he worked in the tannery—Calfskin Tannery—where he ended up. Nettie: I think they paid more. Anne: He liked working there—he worked nights—he did his work days and go to church. Yes, he was a religious man—  Nettie: What church did he attend? Anne: He attended the church on Hill Ave. Sts. Peter and Paul Russian Orthodox—that's where I was baptized. Nettie: Did you say you had a brother who was a priest? Anne: Yes, he went up study to Paris, France—to study to be a Russian priest—Russian Orthodox religion—as they were no seminaries at that time here. Nettie: Where is his parish located? Anne: Lakewood, Ohio. Nettie: Was he now—very rev— Anne: Archpriest. Nettie: In your immediate family—how many children do you have? Anne: Nine children—5 brothers and 4 sisters. Nettie: Are they all living? Anne: One brother is not, George. Nettie: After you married—how many children did you have? Anne: 3 girls. Nettie: You are a grandma? Ann, could you tell me anything else about the work—or something comical that you can recollect? Anne: All I know we had no streetlights. We had to walk in the dark—we had to walk to work 2 miles to get a street car—we had no boots, no scarf. Nettie: Did you ever catch a cold, not having boots? Anne: No, never had a cold. The furnace went out at 4 o'clock—we got up and got dressed in the cold. We never knew what luxury was so we took things as they came along, we enjoyed everything, we had a happy home life. Nettie: Happy home life and nice parents— Anne: Right—we always got along. My father used to always say, “I'm wealthy because I got a good family and good health.” Nettie: I think it is very true. If you have money and no health—that's not good. Anne: He always made the sign of the cross before he left the house. Nettie: People from that generation were very religious. Anne: When he was dying he tried to get oxygen, he tried to bless himself, we didn’t know what he was doing but he was taking oxygen off and he was blessing himself. Nettie: And he was always good to everyone—everybody liked him. Anne: I remember him some—I can 't remember him too much. Nettie: Anne, your husband ran a bakery, tell me about it. Anne: We bought the bakery, it used to be Perl Bakery and we took it over—North Side of Endicott (Squires Ave.) and we built up and got all the Grand Union Stores—the bakery was run down at that time when we got it we built it up. My husband had to go to work to the bakery and stay inside. If the baker did not show up he had to stay inside and bake the bread, rolls and everything was going all over, he had to go help—he had 2 or 3 hours sleep a lot of times. It was pretty tough starting until we got situated but it was hard during the Depression because we couldn't buy anything. It was hard but we still got going. It was hard to get bakers and supplies—but we managed and then after—I worked— Nettie: You worked in the bakery? Anne: I iced the cakes—120 cakes a day I iced—I like the back work we got along pretty good until—after a while we [caught] some of them stealing and taking stuff which then after couldn't take any more of the business. I told him, "Let's just give up." And a lady gave me a hard time with a cake and she said, “I don't like the roses, I want them pinkish.” I got so nervous, went in the house and locked the bakery. And my husband came home and asked, "What happened to the bakery?" “Locked it,” because she gave me a hard time—she made me cry—she gave me a hard time so I quit. And I said, "I want to sell it, let's get out of here." And he said, "Don’t let that bother you.” And that's one thing I couldn't take if I saw someone was giving me hard time, and when I saw them stealing—I couldn't take it anymore. I said it's not for us—"Let's get out of here." My husband wasn't feeling too good already. ”I rather have you than the bakery.” So then we sold it to Roma's—now they got it. Even our bakers didn't know we sold it. Nettie: Fast job. Anne: They were all surprised. Nettie: Well they probably all liked working for you. Anne: So, Billie Shelepak worked there—still works there with Roma—he started with Perl and he is still there. Nettie: He is an accomplished baker. Anne: I guess so—he likes the bakery business. Nettie: Did you do any of the baking? Anne: No, my husband was a salesman, not a baker. He used to go on the truck and deliver—come in and help out when a baker did not show up—never gave a notice—just don't come in. Nettie: Did he know how to make bread? Anne: They had to show him and he would do it and I would do etc., bookwork—and whatever the salesman came in—I would either order or tell them George came home. But I saw George was going downhill fast and I couldn't·see it. Nettie: You mean he wasn't feeling good? Anne: No, he was run down and I couldn't see him doing it— Nettie: It doesn't pay to have a business and money when your health is more important to you. Anne: So, then he got a job with IBM—where he was better off—better off. Nettie: What did he do in IBM? Anne: He was putting in the transistors. He started as a maintenance man first and then they put him on transistors. Nettie: Like an assembly line job? Anne: He liked it—retired from there. Nettie: Better he left the bakery—right? It was a pressure job—wasn't it? Anne: Right—more of a pressure job. He was 43 when they took him in at IBM—lucky to get in at that age as nowadays it is hard to get in at that age. He didn't know anything—he told them but was willing to learn. Nettie: That's what they want—a person willing to learn— Anne: Then when he did get the job—he was rejected for high blood pressure. So he waited a year—finally got in—I always believe—if you wait and you want something real bad—the time will come you will achieve it. Nettie: That's your philosophy. Anne: I believe in it strongly—yeah—because we were going into Scranton one Sunday morning—when Vincent Peale was on—he said, “Just believe in something strongly and it will happen to you.” And a year later it did. Nettie: I think Vincent Peale—he stresses positive— Anne: Right—and I strongly believe in that—and believe and hope and things will work out. Nettie: Anne, did you have any more recollections? You have a lot of experiences. Anne: I just can't think—my husband had a lot of experiences on the bakery truck. Nettie: Like what? Anne: He delivered bread when he worked at West Side Bakery or Schwab’s—they had the best bread in town. Nettie: They had the best bread— Anne: He used to deliver bread to Mrs. Rosefsky—her son is the best pediatrician today and he worked his way through selling ice cream. Nettie: Who is this Dr. Rosefsky? Anne: Every time my grandchild goes to him today—he always asks about their grandfather. When my granddaughter was ten she had spinal meningitis—we did not know whether she would live or die—it was either death or crippling—but thank God she pulled out and Dr. Rosefsky came to·Perkins—and Dr. Rosefsky told us there that your granddaughter will be ok. That was the best news we ever heard in a long time. Nettie: That was a miracle. Anne: My son in law was sick seven years ago—he had aneurysm—Thank God he is ok—which they didn't give him a chance. Nettie: Very few people pull out of it. Anne: So I strongly believe in something that if you believe in and hope— Nettie: When you have faith— Anne: Yes, you will come of it strong which way it turns. You just have to have faith—that is the only way it gets anyone going. Nettie: I believe that too— Anne: And a man came over about 10 years after we sold the bakery and said, “I have something to tell you.” He came over and I thought maybe our books were wrong—but he said, “I have a new faith and I have to pay my debt in this world.” He said, “I took stuff from your bakery. I wasn't even a worker—I sold it in the tannery,” and he said, “Whatever I owe you—please name your price.” I said to him, “Light a candle—and that is all you owe and God Bless you and God will see the the way.” Nettie: Isn't that amazing. Anne: To me I think has been that way—because when you have that faith—I think HE will help you materially health wise, not money wise. And I think in a long run you are doing something doesn’t show there—but it shows in that person that you gave it to and I strongly believe in that. Nettie: That is amazing. Anne: That is something I'm telling you. After all these years—we had so many close shaves and every time I think, I thank God—that light is still burning for us. Nettie: I think God gives us strength, doesn't he? Anne: When I see what my son in law went through, what my grandchildren went through so this is the way I see life and when my time comes I think I’ll be ready because when he wants us we have to be ready and if HE puts you to a test, because a lot of these things that we have to go through. Nettie: I think it is really a test—don't you think? Anne: Right—it is mostly a test because my husband had so many close shaves down the hill the brakes failed—coming with that truck and he went through Susquehanna, PA, and his brakes failed and if there was anybody in the way it would have killed a lot of people—but lucky no one was there— Nettie: Thank GOD he was OK. Anne: So, a a window fell once on Harry L. Drive, fell off the 2nd floor and it skimmed him by a half inch—he would have killed him right away. Nettie: So when you see and go through these things— Anne: You know someone upstairs is watching over you and you are so close and yet you are going on. I don’t know— Nettie: Gee Ann, you have quite a few things—I know you could squeeze a few more recollections as I know you have a lot to tell me but can't think of them, at that time. Anne: These are all true facts that happened—how quickly things can happen, that's why I pray. I pray every day that God’s will—that what happens you have to be happy and if you live that way—try to reason—you’ll think of that before you do something. Nettie: Anne, do you remember any incidents when you were young—had gone to school—Russian school, etc.? Anne: When I got my job in EJ I was scared—we were all there in the room—I think about 15 girls or so—all afraid—one day one of the girls said, “Why don’t you go in? Why don't you go in?” Finally I said—my heart is pounding—I said OK—”It’s me, ok, I’m going in.” I had everything I was going to say. So I came in there and Mr. Powell was there—he still lives at Ackley Ave. (I was talking fast) I said to Mr. Powell, "We have 9 children in the family, my father works in the tannery, he cannot afford to feed us so I have to get a job so I don’t know what I am going to do. Mr. Powell said, “You got the job.” So I went to EJ—I went on a stitching machine—I looked on the machine and 5 minutes later—I said, “I'm going home.” Nettie: Oh come on—you could do that. Anne: Well, I did it, I cut a couple of coupons off—the ladies helped me—they were very nice—they gave me the fancy stitch—where I stitched two pieces together to make a shoe. Well, when you saw two pieces together one side is going to be longer—I didn't know the difference—I just cut the bottom off—I couldn’t imagine what the next operation was—I wasn't working there too long—they didn't want to tell me but that was the reason they let me go. Then I worked in another place and I had to make belts—I had to turn the belt inside out, you know what you were going to have—I poked the hole on the other end—I didn't know about what to do there—so then I didn’t stay too long there—I quit. Them kind of jobs were not for me—they were piecework—and I said, “if I get a job of piecework it's going to be on my own work—what I want do on my own. Finally I got the job at the tag department. I had to do proofreading—I liked it—no pressure—that's where I enjoyed it—that's where I quit from. At my age I think I had it—but EJ was all right—I liked it at the end. And when I was coming home I was crying—as I really enjoyed working there. Nettie: After being at home all these years—raising the children—and get a work outside you enjoy it—figure you fulfilled your job at home and now you are going— Anne: My husband wanted to quit because he wanted to go to Florida with him so I told him I’d do anything he wanted to—so I quit. And I cried all the way, missed the girls—and left everybody I liked. Nettie: This was when your husband retired and you retired. Anne: After a month we went to the cafeteria in IBM, the man—asked if you like retirement—no—and he went back to work on his old job and after three months—he said, “No—I'm going to retire.” Nobody ever got that because he got the first check—he was jealous of the job of garbage man because he always worked—he was hardworking—he couldn’t see sitting home when I was working. So I have to quit—because I don’t know what would happen—so he told me to quit—now we both retired and living the life of riley and enjoy everything and everyday cause you don’t know when the last day will be. Nettie: Well, Anne, this was interesting—and thank you very much. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Anne Spisak Subject The topic of the resource Spisak, Anne -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Cigar industry Description An account of the resource Anne Spisak of Endicott, NY talks about working at the General Cigar factory in Binghamton as an examiner. She describes the products they produced and sold at the cigar factory, lack of a labor union, the process of making cigars and the aspects of her job. She mentions getting married and getting a job at Endicott Johnson Corporation polishing shoes. She discusses the Perl Bakery, which she and her husband owned, but later sold. She also discusses how her religion played a big part in her life. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 57 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9fc25066ab7beb78bd3983dee579d84e.mp3 9129aab24e9b82a3ced45907bc9143ca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 10/27/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Annie Kabakian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:31 Biographical Text Annie Kabakian (1955-2020) was the granddaughter of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to Lebanon in the early 1900s. Annie was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. Later on, she moved to Montreal, Canada.  She is survived by her husband and her four children. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Annie Kabakian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 27 October 2017 Interview Setting: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian; I am interviewing, uh, Annie Kabakian for Binghamton University’s Armenian Oral History Project. Today is October 27, 2017. Um, can you start out with your name and birthplace please? 0:20 AK: My name is Annie Kabakian and I was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:26 JK: And, um, what was the ethnicity of your parents? 0:30 AK: My parents were both from, uh, they were Armenian and they were born in, Lebanon also. But their uh, grand– I mean my grandparents were not born in Lebanon, they were born in Armenia. 0:46 JK: Uh, and do you know where in Armenia they were born? 0:50 AK: Well, they were born in, uh, ancient Armenia. One was from Antep, one was from Bursa. My mother was from Bursa. Now it is under, uh, uh, Turkish government. 1:10 JK: And, um, what were your– what were the circumstances that your family had to leave Armenia? 1:17 AK: Oh, they had to leave, uh, their, uh, their, uh, grandparents, I guess they had to leave because of the genocide in 1915 and then they went to other parts wherever they were received, they stayed there and, uh, slowly they migrated toward Lebanon. 1:39 JK: And what– 1:40 AK: –Over the years. 1:41 JK: And what were your pa– parent’s names? 1:44 AK: My father’s name was, um, Mihran Kabakian and my mother’s name was Meline Kashukchian. 1:53 JK: And where were they born in Lebanon? 1:56 AK: They were born in Beirut. 1:58 JK: Both of them? 2:00 AK: Both of them. I guess my father, uh, was born maybe in Aleppo, Syria and, uh, maybe at the age of two I believe, uh, they came, uh, to Lebanon. So– 2:15 JK:–And– 2:16 AK:–I guess that well maybe, uh, some sibling were born in Lebanon. 2:23 JK: And were both of your grandparents, uh, so both of your grandparents are from Armenia, on both sides– 2:30 AK: Yes. 2:31 JK: Do you, do you recall any stories or any information about that– when they lived there? 2:39 AK: Stories? Uh, no they were, uh, living, uh, like they were– it is about the genocide everything disturbed one under the Ott– the Ottoman Empire decided to, uh, move the Armenians from Armenia and, uh, um, and they started the genocide in 1915 and, uh, some of them, uh, they were fleeing the country–They were lucky they did not get killed on the road. Most of them got killed on the road also so my ancestors, some of them, they made it, uh, to other countries, the neighborhoods and, uh, they slowly came down to Lebanon, which was a Christian country. 3:32 JK: Do you, uh, remember how they escaped or, uh, what they did in Armenia? When they did live there. 3:44 AK: Uh, they escaped because some of the neighbors, they would hide them and help them to escape, that is how they survived. Or when they had good neighbors, uh, but they helped them, uh, you know in the beginning they were letting them flee the country because they wanted the land and everything out, uh, the wells and everything. But, uh, some of them as I said, they were lucky to flee the country but some of them got noted and massacred down the way. And they never made anywhere, so. 4:27 JK: And who were these, uh, were the neighbors Armenian or Turkish, or– 4:33 AK: No, no, uh, neighbors were– I was saying, uh, the neighbor who was like, uh, some, uh, neighbors who knew, uh, people would help them to flee. Some of them were Turk, yes, and they would know people to help them to flee. That is all I can remember my parents would tell us. Otherwise, they would have been massacred, too. Because they were coming door to door– the soldiers– to look for Armenians and that is how I guess some of them, uh, stayed alive. 5:13 JK: Do you know– do you remember when your grandparents, uh, left Armenia, how old they were, or no? 5:19 AK: No, no, no. No, I do not– I do not remember. 5:25 JK: Did your parents ever go back to Armenia? 5:28 AK: No, no. Because after it fell under the Russian, uh, became a part of Russia and we– all the land and the houses were confiscated so they had nowhere to go. And all the relatives were either, uh, massacred or had left the country so there was no reason for them, uh, they could not go back because, uh, as I said they left with nothing. So, everything they had was confiscated. 6:06 JK: And– 6:07 AK: –Oh, they continued life and they worked in, uh, wherever they made it until they reach Lebanon. 6:15 JK: And, uh, were you, you grew up in Lebanon, correct? 6:19 AK: Yes, and my father, uh I grew up in Lebanon. My father, um, was studying in school. He got a sponsorship to go and study in Wyoming and, uh, he became a chemical engineer, and, uh, then he came back to Beirut, Lebanon to take care of his family and, uh, he founded the first, uh, textile printing, I believe in the Middle East and, uh, that is, yeah. 6:58 JK: And, uh, growing up did you attend Armenian school in Lebanon, or– 7:06 AK: Yes, I, uh, attended uh the very famous Armenian, uh, Hamazkayin Djemaran in Beirut in Beirut. Which became an institution, uh, for Armenians to learn about, uh, the language and, uh the culture for foreigners. 7:28 JK: Was there a lot of Armenians where you lived in Beirut? 7:32 AK: Yes. We, we lived in an Armenian neighborhood. Of course, it was all mixed with the Lebanese people, too. But always the Armenians, they, uh, stayed together, they find, uh, a place to found a church and a school so we continue our, uh, I mean to survive and stay Armenian. 7:58 JK: And I am assuming that, um, your whole family spoke Armenian– your parents, your siblings, you included? 8:05 AK: Yes, yes. Of course, we adopted the country that we live at but we went to Armenian school. Of course, we spoke Armenian but we had to learn Arabic, which was the language of the country and French also, or English as an international language as Lebanon was a French colony after the World, uh, War. So, we had to take a few languages– Armenian because we were Armenian, Arabic because we lived in Lebanon and French and English as international languages. 8:46 JK: Uh, growing up in your school, were the other Armenian families, uh, that mi– uh came to Lebanon and Beirut, was it because of the genocide? 8:56 AK: Well, of course, most of them– most of them we were– alike, yes. Most of them–the, uh, yeah. I believe so. 9:09 JK: And do you recall any stories from that or–anything at all from the migration? 9:18 AK: I– it was all the similar stories like, uh, a neighbor’s house and everything got confiscated. They had to leave and they were– and, uh, some of them, uh, some of the family members died on the road because of starvation and it is all similar stories. And, uh, some of them have more tragic stories, some of them, uh, it is– different stories depending on the road they were led by their, uh, connections and, uh, some went to Greece some went to France, uh, some stayed in Syria because they could not continue. Uh, Armenia was a very big country then, now it is very small and, uh, that was why some went to Jerusalem. Yeah, they all have different stories but very similar. 10:27 JK: And, uh, in the Armenian school you, you had all Armenian friends, I am assuming, or– 10:37 AK: Yes, yes. We were all Armenians but, uh, because it was like an institution and we had the boarding section too, um, people came– like, students came from all over the countries. Like from United States and, uh, France and Greece to learn Armenian and the history and the country because, uh, their ancestors had made to all these countries, you know, uh, around that time. 11 :16 JK: Uh, also in Bing– 11:17 AK: Because there is like three generations who were speaking– 11:21 JK:–Also, yeah, in, um, Beirut, did you attend Armenian Church? 11:28 AK: Yes, uh, on Sundays we would go to Armenian church and our parents would take us, uh, uh, to church it was–we learned about the traditions through, um, like, uh, the festive days and everything they kept all the traditions and it was, uh, commemoration days also like April 24th which, uh, we commemorate, uh, and we remember the worst day of the genocide 1915, April 24 and, uh, and after that one, um, in 1918, May 28 we got our independence. We celebrate that day– we celebrate in school and we celebrate in the church also, just to remember our ancestors and we organize, uh, cultural, uh, gatherings. So, that is how we learn more about our culture and traditions. 12:40 JK: And, um, after Lebanon, you moved to Montreal, correct? 12:47 AK: Yes, during the Lebanese War, we had no choice, we, we wanted to stay but the Civil War was, uh, very treacherous and, uh, we had to stay but always we thought that we would go back to Lebanon and we were always grateful and we loved the country but the war never ended and it became, uh, even worse so we stayed in Montreal and we continued the same traditions–that we had started in, uh, in Beirut, Lebanon. 13:35 JK: And was there a big Armenian community in Montreal? 13:39 AK: Yes, and uh the first uh comers like there are Armenians– they were Armenian who had been stopped in Egypt because that is how far they could go like um from the genocide and uh when there was big uh war in Egypt too, some people migrated to Montreal. Many Armenians came to Armenia, uh, from Egypt to, uh, Montreal and, uh, over the years other Armenians came from Syria and in 19– around 1974 and so on, uh, we came from, uh, Lebanon so Armenians before us like from Egypt they had started already to build an Armenian church and the school and we always continued to continue and build our church and schools so, uh, we continue, uh, and to preserve our roots and never forget what our ancestors went through, uh, yeah. 15:01 JK: And how did you preserve your Armenian traditions other than the church and the school? What other ways did you– 15:10 AK: It– now that I am married and I have, uh, my, uh, kids I continue to do the same way as my parents did and more, um, in different ways. We, we go to church, maybe not as often, but we still go at festive days and, uh, certain historic days now, Armenia became independent in September 25th, to– from the Russian Empire. So, we have that celebration to–and same as my parents did, we also– and my husband we always speak Armenian in the house and we always tell them, uh, traditions from the literature and we take them to Armenian theater or we, uh, send them to learn the Armenian dance. Uh, in the school or in the community center– we have a community center and we organize, um, celebrations on like history days and festive days and holidays. So, we always keep the songs we used to sing some of them, some parts of it and that is how and now with the internet, they have, uh, they have access to all kinds of the Armenian history even though they went a few years to Armenian school. Um, now, sometimes for school, they do their research on Armenian history or as you are doing Jackie, and that is how we keep our traditions and, uh, we learn more. 17:29 JK: And would you say– which, uh, area you lived in, either Montreal or Beirut, which one had a stronger Armenian community do you think? 17:41 AK: Of course in Beirut. Although we adapted to the Lebanese and we interacted and we learned a lot from them too, and food and the festive days. We always had our community center and, and I should say, Beirut was a very, very small city so we are very connected. Here in Montreal, it is very big and there are many Armenians who went to different parts of Canada and the States. We have a– big communities in Toronto, Vancouver, like in LA, and New Jersey. So whoever has the family wherever they went there so, I believe we have thirty-thousand Armenian maybe in Canada, so we always have a community center, and, uh, it is getting smaller, but we are in many major cities in the world in Europe, in France. Also we have a big community in France because whoever went there, they, they stayed there and they continue. We have churches and schools maybe in Marcy and in Paris maybe, so– 19:13 JK: And, um, going back to your family and the traditions. Uh, what were some traditions that represented Armenia to you in the household, like whether certain fo– foods or holidays you would celebrate? 19:29 AK: I picked up everything. A bit of some food that, um, because we were– we used to have big families and, uh, sometimes we make food for a lot of people we have and I continue telling stories about the names of the food and, I do not know, it is the traditions; what we do on some holidays like January the sixth and Easter. They eat not only about– it is about– how can I say religious connotations too we, we, uh, it is not allowed but a little of– a bit of everything the folklore dances and, uh– 20:32 JK:–What kind of foods do you know or certain foods that you guys would eat or like the songs or dances, can you name? 20:45 AK: Well [laughs] I cannot explain that but, uh, I can talk about harissa which is very famous food with Armenians would be– which is like made with meat and, uh, cracked wheat so and you make a lot– it is very healthy because winters were very harsh in, uh, Ar– like Armenia so they would make this food which would give a lot of energy and the word means like you have to beat a lot to make a very homogeneous mixture and our teachers would tell stories about this food that whoever came to the house had to stir it and stir it because the name says like harissa means like very continuously and the–that is how it was named and, ah, this kind of stories I tell them and our teachers would say sometimes because we were very inviting people and when–because it–this food takes a long while to make it. Some, uh, like fathers would see that the hus– like the wife was making this food and they would invite all their friends because it has made a lot and funny stories. And all of a sudden the whole house is full of people. Stories like that, but yeah, and the dance most of the time on happy occasions we put the Armenian music and danced folkloric dance. Some of the dances are very gracious, some of them is, uh, very how can I say, uh, 23:00 JK: Emotional? 23:01 AK: Very, I do not know how to say. You have to see it. 23:07 JK: And, um, was your husband– is your husband Armenian? 23:11 AK: Yes, my husband is Armenian too and we have similar stories and, uh, yeah. And, uh, he, he has the same beliefs and the– we adapt to the country that received us, but we keep always our traditions. And we acquire other traditions throughout the cities and countries that we live in. And, uh, it makes very interesting we are open to other cultures too, and we keep our traditions also. 23:55 JK: And, um, did you teach your children to learn Armenian? 24:01 AK: Pardon? 24:02 JK: Did you teach your children Armenian growing up? 24:05 AK: Yes, yes they went a few years to Armenian school. Uh, and yeah we continue speaking Armenian and sometimes, uh, you know, sometimes they answer in English but I continuously answer in Armenian they, they, uh, they, uh, because it is not the same life here as it was in Beirut, Lebanon. 24:39 JK: And was it important for you to teach them Armenian? 24:42 AK: Yes, of course. When you know a language you know better culture and understand better the people and the way they live and, uh, it is very important. It does not hurt to know your language and learn more. 25:03 JK: And have you ever been back? Or have you ever been to Armenia? 25:08 AK: No, my husband has been and one of my daughters have been, uh, to Armenia and, uh, yeah one of my daughters, Karine has been to Armenia and visited the places and help, um, wherever there was a need because we had a very horrible earthquake, too, so– 25:40 JK:–Did you ever want to go? 25:42 AK:–Please continue, yeah. 25:44 JK: Have you ever wanted to go to Armenia or visit? 25:47 AK: Of course, of course, of course. We are going to go– I am thinking of taking the whole family. But the schedules are different. And so we always believe, eventually, we going to go and, uh, yes. 26:03 JK: And how would you identify yourself? Canadian-Armenian, Armenian-Lebanese? 16:14 AK: Um, I am– my nationality is Lebanese but I am Armenian. So– and now I live in Canada and I have the Canadian citizenship and we adapt but we are Armenian we, we live as we adapt to the country we adapt to the Canadian life and we go with their traditions, too, but we never forget ours either. We are Armenians in Canada. My kids are Canadians but they are Armenian descent and I be– I live now in Canada, and that is the way of life by a breath and I am Armenian. 27:09 JK: And, um, do you think you can remain Armenian without either the language, the homeland or the church? 27:20 AK: Um, it is– by name, you can remain but if you–it is about the willingness to know about your roots. If you do not have that willingness, it does not–and if you do not contribute to the Armenian life and the community, and– then you do not remain Armenian, it is the willingness of people to, uh, remain Armenian, but adapt to the country that has received us. You do not have to lose your identity. It does not mean that I am not Canadian. So– but my roots– my– I am born Armenian. 28:11 JK: And what about the church? Do you think you can be Armenian without the church as a whole or no? 28:22 AK: We can be Armenian but Armenians were the first nation to be Christian. I believe in three-o-one we were the first nation. So, um, I cannot answer that question, but you can be Armenian. If you are not Christian, if you do not want to remain Christian, you can still remain Armenian. But it is the willingness as I said, it is up– it is individually us–or maybe we know too much about our history and ancestors, we continue– our duty because our ancestors, they were massacres and they died for– to keep us, uh, the country and, uh, that is our land. So we do our duty for our Armenian nation. 29:34 JK: Okay, thank you so much. Is there anything else you would like to add or say? 29:41 AK: Huh? 29:42 JK: Uh, is there anything else you would like to add to the interview? 29:49 AK: No it is enough, uh, Jackie because– 29:50 JK:–Thank you. (End of Recording 1) 29:54 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collections Library. This is a continuation interview with Annie Kabakian. So, um, what did your family members do, um, before the genocide? 30:12 AK: All I can remember is that, um, my father’s side ancestors they had big land in Armenia and they were cultivating pumpkins and, uh, so when they left, uh, we– they left all that land behind and they went to Antep first where– you know– they were forced to move there so, uh, my grandfather at that time became a controller in a bank and that is all I remember. And I remember that, um, one of my grandma’s fathers were in the– was a general in the Army and his name is in the Armenian history books but I have the picture but I cannot remember his name and then, uh, one of my father’s side uncle was a lawyer in Antep in Bursa, by the way, in Bursa, another part that the Armenians were forced to move. And, um, I remember my mom saying that the father was a big, uh, famous tailor for the army outfits, um, that is how they survived– all of them, uh, most of them, I should say, uh, my uncle the lawyer was, uh, hung during the– those times of 1920– yeah somewhere around there. Yes, so, uh, that is it. 32:04 JK: And he was hung because he was Armenian, or– 32:11 AK: Pardon? 32:12 JK: It– uh the last part you said he was hung, because he was Armenian? 32:17 AK: Yeah, well he was hung in, uh, I think in Bursa and, uh, yeah. Uh, and, um, my grandma got married and my father I believe he was born in, uh, somewhere in Aintab and then, uh, during the genocide times, they were moved to Syria and then I do not believe they stayed too long and they came to Lebanon. Yeah. And my mother too, uh, was from Bursa. She was– the family was from Bursa, she was born in Beirut, Lebanon. Yeah. 33:01 JK: Is there anything else you would like to add, or– 33:10 AK: Uh, like, um, my grandparents were– one controller in Aintab and the other one was born in Bursa on the way sometimes, Armenians, when they meet, they marry, so, uh, that was how they got married and, um, we always try to stay together in communities as our short story famous writer William Saroyan always says, “Wherever there are two Armenians, they come together, they build a church and a school and we can never destroy their sense of community.” That is all I can say, that is how we survive and we continue our traditions and with survival sometimes it is the willingness, uh, to continue because we know how much our ancestors– they tried hard and survived and, uh, you know. Life goes on. 34:21 JK: Exactly. 34:22 AK: Yes. 34:22 JK: Thank you so much. 34:26 AK: Very welcome. 34:27 JK: All right. 34:27 AK: Okay. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Annie Kabakian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9b1fd80e80122a2e151daa018960497f.mp3 2d88dc7b4b664702b1f831d9b1db9f48 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/24/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ara Kradjian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 21:42 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ara was the son of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to the United States in 1920. Ara was born and raised in Binghamton which is where he resides now with his 2 sons. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Ara Kradjian (1933-2018) was the son of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to the United States in 1920. Ara was born and raised in Binghamton. He graduated from University of Pennysalvania with a B.S.E in Economics. After graduation, Ara served as a Lieutenant with the U.S. Naval Construction Battalion for two years. Ara returned to Binghamton, where he joined to his family business at Kradjian Properties and Bates Troy Laundry and Dry Cleaning. He is survived by his wife and his two sons. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Church; Sunday school; Endicott Johnson; cooking; traditional roles; Armenian diaspora; gender roles; immigration; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Church; Sunday school; Endicott Johnson; cooking; traditional roles; Armenian diaspora; gender roles; immigration Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Ara Kradjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 24 March 2016 Interview Setting: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 GS: Okay, so, my name is Gregory Smaldone. I am here interviewing Dr. Ara Kradjian for the Armenian Oral History Project for the Special Collections Department at Binghamton University Library. Dr. Kradjian if you can please introduce yourself. 0:17 AK: My name is Ara Kradjian. I live in 823 Sky Lane Terrace in Endwell. I was born here eighty-two years ago. And I think I am going to die here. 0:34 GS: Can you tell us about your parents, what were their names, what were their immigration status? 0:39 AK: My father’s name was Kenneth, or Kevan Kradjian. He was born in Hadjin [Haçin], Turkey around 1901. He lived to be ninety-nine years old. He came to this country 1920. His brother came over about a year or two before him. So the two of them partnered and became successful business men in the Binghamton community. 1:17 GS: And what about your mother? 1:20 AK: My mother’s maiden name was Haigouhi Asarian. She was born in Istanbul and my father went back to the old country and he met her in Marseilles in 1930 when they married and he brought her back to Binghamton. 1:44 GS: Were your parents genocide survivors? 1:47 AK: Both of them were, yes. 1:48 GS: Did they ever talk to you about their experiences? 1:52 AK: Yes they did. 1:56 S: Would you be willing to share what they shared with you? 2:00 AK: My mother had an interesting incident. She was very young and her father had died. Her mother had remarried and there was ̶ They were going on this death march I believe and they were able to flee only because a relative, an uncle, was actually, he was Armenian, he was the captain of the Turkish army, and somehow they were able to flee, they saw death and destruction all over but my mother had to leave her mother's side and go to an orphanage because her mother's new husband and child; they did not have enough food to feed everybody. So they went through difficult times. 3:05 GS: I can imagine. So you said that you were born and raised here in Binghamton. 3:08 AK: That is correct. 3:09 GS: How many siblings do you have in the family? 3:11 AK: I have three sisters. 3:14 GS: Older or younger? 3:17 AK: Let us see ̶ one older and two younger. 3:22 GS: Okay, growing up would you say you hung out mostly with Armenian children or non-Armenian children or were your kinship groups some form of combination of two? 3:32 AK: I would say there was more ̶ once I got into school after five years old, I hung out more with non-Armenian children because the community here was very small, the Armenian community. That is the only reason. We kept in touch through the Armenian church on Cooperate Avenue. That was our common bond. 3:58 GS: Tell me about that, so the church was kind of the social space for the Armenian community? 4:02 AK: Yes it was. 4:03 GS: Would you say you just went every week for church service or was there an expanded presence there? 4:09 AK: The church service was really only once a month because we couldn’t afford to have a full-time priest but they had like a children’s Sunday school every Sunday. 4:22 GS: So you went to that? 4:23 AK: Yes, which kept everything going. 4:26 GS: Would that meet for say, two hours every Sunday or ̶ 4:29 AK: Yeah, yeah. 4:30 GS: And was there usually a reception or something after or was it just come and leave? 4:36 AK: Yeah ̶ there would be a coffee hour, depends who would pick up the children. 4:44 GS: And then at that time would all the children socialize together? 4:49 AK: A little bit, yeah. 4:50 GS: So the church, even when the church was not being utilized for religious services it was very much a social space. 4:55 AK: No question about it. 4:57 GS: Would you say that your experience of only really, would you say your experience of having a mostly non Armenian friend group outside of the church was typical of children your age in the community? 5:10 AK: In this Armenian community I would say yes. 5:12 GS: In this Armenian community ̶ good specification, thank you ̶ what were the roles of your parents in the household, what roles did each of them have, did they both go to work, did one stay at home and manage the household? 5:24 AK: Yeah, my father was a workaholic and my mother raised the family. 5:30 GS: What did your father do? 5:31 AK: Well he started off working for the shoe factory here before I was born ̶ this is the home of, at Endicott Johnson and they employed 20,000 immigrants at that time ̶ supplied all work shoes and military shoes for the whole of the united states and after a couple years there, he and his brother and his first cousin bought their own dry cleaning and tailor shop close to where they used to work in the shoe factory. And then they moved from there and they bought out their cousin. And then after World War II, they were able to take over a larger established laundry and then after my uncle’s son Harry and I got out of college in the (19)50s actually, I got out maybe 1957 we came to work at father and uncle's laundry and experimented from there. 6:50 GS: Okay, I am assuming both of your parents spoke fluent Armenian. 6:53 AK: Yes. 6:54 GS: Naturally. Did they teach you and you siblings Armenian growing up? 7:00 AK: Yeah, we learned to, a while back we learned to speak, I never was very good reading and writing Armenian. I could speak it and understand. 7:14 GS: How frequently was it spoken in the household? 7:20 AK: From ages one up until through elementary school I would say was more common, but my mother knew English when she came to this country, she had gone to an American University in Istanbul. But my father went to night school in this country and he learned English and he spoke it pretty well, and he could probably read it. He went to night school and became fluent as soon as he could. 7:51 GS: So could you tell me, did you teach your children how to speak Armenian? 8:00 AK: No, I did not, even though I married a, an Armenian girl, who was born in Tehran Iran, she spoke. They picked up bits and pieces, but we became more of an American household but we always could speak with our relatives in Armenian but my children could understand it a little bit but did not speak it very well. 8:33 GS: Would you say that growing up your mother tended to cook Armenian food in the house and was that an important part of your identity? 8:42 AK: I think so, yes, very much so. 8:45 GS: Would you say that was common throughout the Armenian community, was food what touched us? 8:50 AK: Absolutely. 8:51 GS: Okay, cool, so let us focus a little bit on your family, can you tell me, your wife’s name, how many children you have and what they are doing now? 9:01 AK: Okay, my wife’s name was Sophie Boudaghian and we married 19 years, then she passed away with a blood disorder and in the meantime we had two boys, Eric and Brian and they both went to local high schools and Brian went on to college, graduation and came into the family business so he is really third generation in the laundry business that we were involved in. My son, Eric was non academia minded and he struggled to get through high school and he ̶ completely different personality and thank god he is still alive today, he is healthy and strong but he does not have the work ethics and the passion for work, as his brother has. 10:19 GS: How important was it for you that your children have a sense of Armenian identity growing up and if it was important how did you give that to them? 10:30 AK: Would you repeat that. 10:32 GS: Well let us start with the first question, was it important for you that your children maintain a sense of Armenian Identity? 10:41 AK: Yes but I do not think I did a very good job, I did a better job on my younger son that oldest son on that actually. Because he married an Armenian girl, who was born in Soviet Armenia and moved to Los Angeles when she was eighteen and he met her recently, he has only been married two years. She is 100 percent Armenian-American and she speaks both languages fluently. So, I did not think he would get back into the Armenian community but through his marriage with this girl, he did. 11:30 GS: In what way was he estranged from the Armenian community? 11:36 AK: It just, going away to school and college, he was not estranged but was not a priority for him. 11:48 GS: What was the Armenian community for your children, growing up? 11:52 AK: For this community, it got less and less, most of the people, all the families I remember, that I grew up with, over half of them moved to California over a period of twenty-thirty years. I would say in the (19)40s. I bet we lost thirty-forty families to California and during and after World War II and then there were these intermarriages with the American community, we did not have a strong enough, or enough people to hold the Armenian community together here. And it is very small, relatively weak right now. 12:57 GS: Did your children attend Armenian Church growing up? 13:03 AK: Yeah but not as much as I did when I was growing up, again they had this, we did not have a full time priest and they weren’t interested in the Sunday school courses. My wife and I would take them like once a month to the Armenian Church. 13:22 GS: And was that about the extent to which they would socialize with predominantly Armenian children, elsewise it was just was whoever their friends were. 13:30 AK: Yeah but we there rather interrelations with Armenians were more with the extended family like my wife had an extended Armenian family in the Queens and Troy area in New York City. So, on holidays we would go see them or they would come see us. And then, it was to relatives on weekend visits. Aside from that, I would say 90 percent of life was among the American community. 14:18 GS: What were ways in which you tried to pass down Armenian traditions to them, outside of church and the Armenian language? 14:31 AK: Well, I am guilty to say I was not very aggressive because as I grew up I realized I was moving away from the Armenian community, I just saw it was inevitable and I never discouraged them, I always told them about their roots and they loved to hear stories from their grandfather and their grandmother about how they grew up in the old country. But, if it was a family meeting or involving relatives they were always curious and liked to listen about Armenian history. Besides that, they were surrounded by kids maybe 90 – 95 percent of the time with all Americans, even though they were from different ethnic backgrounds. 15:32 GS: Understandable, okay, just a few more questions, firstly, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora, do you think it is an accident of history or do you thinks it a good and naturally occurring product and do see it as something as more of a temporary apparition or do you see it as something that is more here to stay? 15:52 AK: Please say that again, I am a little hard of hearing. 15:55 GS: I apologize, what are your views on the Armenian Diaspora, do you see it as a good thing ̶ 16:00 AK: When you say Diaspora? 16:03 GS: The population outside of the homeland, the Armenian population that does not live in Armenia. Do you think that is a good and natural process of immigration or do you think that is an accident in history because of the genocide? 16:18 AK: No, I think it is a really good both; they got them to move, the genocide unfortunately got them move out of the home and they were very adaptable and as you know better than I do probably they came to North America, South America, Europe of course and there were intermarriages, it was a melting, America’s the biggest melting pot as you know. 16:47 GS: Do you think Armenian organizations today, do a good job of keeping the Armenian Americans in the fold of the community or do you think they focus more on the recently immigrated, naturally born Armenians? 17:03 AK: Well, my only contact was going to the bigger cities and the Armenian weekly or bimonthly paper comes out in Boston and half of it relates to what’s going on in Armenian and Yerevan and the other half was what’s going on socially in the North East and I think it is kind of interesting, it keeps me in touch with both sides. So, I think its fifty fifty on their focus on American Armenians as well as the Armenians who are still living in Yerevan and all over Europe. 17:54 GS: Okay, how would you identify yourself? 17:58 AK: How do I identify ̶ I am Armenian and American, proud of my heritage but also very proud to be an American. So, I think I have the best of both worlds. 18:09 GS: So you would call yourself an Armenian American? 18:12 AK: Yes. 18:14 GS: Okay, one more question, what are your views on gender roles in society today? 18:20 AK: On gender roles? 18:24 GS: Gender roles like the idea of the place that women and men take either in the work place or in the home or in marriage, etcetera? 18:35 AK: What is my idea on ̶ 18:37 GS: What is your opinion on the way, what do you think about gender roles in today in ways in which? 18:41 AK: How I pursue them or what I think they should be? 18:45 GS: All of the above. 18:49 AK: Okay, well obviously females have become a very prominent, become very prominent more so I perceive in the United States than they have in the European and other countries and they play a more prominent role every day. They have become presidents, CEO’s of large companies and a lot of moms that used to stay home now have a first job or second job out of necessity and the most ̶ play a big role so they can get away, either out of necessity or out of personal drive, be their own person and be independent. They’ve become much more independent, when I was born in 1933, I had seen that women taking a much more important role in everyone’s life, all through this country. 18:52 GS: Do you think that coming, that the immigration caused by the genocide led to a major shift in gender roles within the Armenian community or do you think that whatever shifts have been occurring there have just been a part of natural process in a more generalized sense? 20:22 AK: Again, a little bit of each, when they came, I think to the genocide, my parents did not have children, the women had to work, most of them came here with very little capital, or funds or money so a lot of them went to work until they had children from my perception and then after children grew up, a lot them went back to work. So I would say the genocide was responsible for them coming over, most of them, not in poverty but on the low income level and depending on the women’s personality and drive that some of them wanted to stay, to prove they were independent and out of necessity or just they wanted to go to college, and be their own person and they did. So it is a little of both. 21:39 GS: Okay, wonderful. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ara Kradjian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8d097d42c7d6a6a78cd096b11b5b969d.mp3 c79ce04ead0eab2759c7c83b9aa0d9b9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12 December 2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Aram Hama Salih and Kwestan Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Aram Hama Salih and Kwestan https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3a3ab200478fc9e4ca6196324c43ba3b.mp3 13440d8767efb25016dfde36d26d0d39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview - 11 November 2014 - 29 November 2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Araz Khorsheed Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Araz Khorsheed https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c019640a7ed14f92a2bad5bb3619d1eb.mp3 bc2c45b68614876f95eaec2028ab880e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/30/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Arda Haratunian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 23:19 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Arda is a member of the board of the AGBU. She earned her masters in Public Administration at NYU, and her Bachelor's at Queens College in NYC. She and her husband have two children, Kanar and Arman. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Arda Haratunian is a strategic communications advisor and educator. She is a member of the board of the AGBU (Armenian General Benevolent Union). Haratunian earned her BA in Communications and Political Science from Queens College and her MA in Public Administration from New York University. She and her husband live on Long Island, NY and have two children.   Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenian genocide; Lebanon; gender roles; Church; culture; tradition; ACYOA; language; politics; activism; Armenian Language School; diaspora; AGBU"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15233,"3":{"1":0},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenian genocide; Lebanon; gender roles; Church; culture; tradition; ACYOA; language; politics; activism; Armenian Language School; diaspora; AGBU Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Arda Haratunian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 30 March 2016 Interview Setting: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:06 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University Special Collection’s Library at Binghamton University working on the Armenian Oral History project. Would you please state your name, your birthday and where do you currently live for the record? 0:18 AH: Okay, Arda Haratunian, April 16, 1964. I live in Manhasset which is in Long Island. 0:25 GS: Where did you grow up? 0:26 AH: In Rego Park, Queens. 0:28 GS: Okay, can you tell me about your parents? 0:30 AH: My parents, okay, so my father who passed away thirty years ago this year emigrated from Jerusalem. He was born in Palestine, 1925. His father went there after the Armenian Genocide. So, my dad came here for school in the late fifties. My mom who is eighty years old, who also lives in Long Island came in the late 1950s as well on a scholarship at the New England Conservatory of Music. 1:04 GS: Where did she emigrate from? 1:05 AH: From Beirut. 1:06 GS: Okay. 1:07 AH: In Lebanon which is where her parents ended up after the Armenian Genocide. 1:11 GS: So, both your parents are ethnically Armenian? 1:13 AH: Correct, 100 percent. 1:15 GS: How would you identify yourself? 1:16 AH: Armenian slash American. 1:19 GS: Okay, so, what was the highest level of education that your parents achieved? 1:23 AH: My father was undergraduate; City College and my mother was a double masters. She did her undergraduate at American University of Beirut and she got two master’s degrees one in Education and one in Music from New England Conservatory. 1:36 GS: And what were their occupations? 1:38 AH: My father was ultimately started his own travel agency. So, he was a travel agent for decades and which is what he was doing when he passed away, and my mom became̶ She was a college teacher, she was a music teacher but she was also an administrator. So, she retired as an elementary school principal and a parochial school system probably about fourteen years ago now and she has worked part-time since then doing all sorts of cultural related activities and volunteering work. 2:13 GS: What were your parents’ roles in the household growing up? 2:16 AH: Both parents worked which is surprising at the time; you know other people did not have that. My father was very much a traditional male figure. He worked very long hours, travelled a lot and he dedicated the bulk of his time to the church and the community which we laugh about now but at the time was a bone of contention. He would surprise my mom with guests. Everything from the Catholicos of the Armenian Church with days’ notice to priests from Jerusalem who he was friend with all of them from his childhood to various community leaders; he probably brought someone home once a week for dinner. My mother worked full time when we were growing up. I mean I think probably part-time for a couple of years but full-time she was teacher, administrator, and she was very much the traditional housewife too. She made sure that we were well-fed, well-cared for, clean and everything. And you know, we did not have a lot of resources but we did not know growing up. 3:11 GS: Did you have any siblings growing up? 3:12 AH: Yes, I have a sister whose two years older who, I went to public high school in Queens until I graduated and went to Queens College. She actually went to Stuyvesant High school in the city, and ended up in the University of Rochester. 3:27 GS: And that is your only sibling? 3:28 AH: Uh-huh, one sibling. 3:29 GS: It is safe to assume that your parents both spoke fluent Armenian? 3:32 AH: Yes. We only spoke Armenian in the home. 3:34 GS: You did! For how long? 3:35 AH: Until I was five. So, I really did not speak English well until I went to kindergarten. 3:39 GS: Really, and do you still speak Armenian fluently now? 3:40 AH: Yes. 3:42 GS: Um, why was it important do you think for your parents that you speak Armenian? 3:46 AH: Um, I think it was preservation of culture, it was tradition. It was because it was the thing to do. I made both of our kids to go to Armenian school and both of them understand it fluently and can speak it very well which is surprising nowadays. I think it is something when you are such a small number of people that you do it as a matter of just tradition. 4:09 GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood growing up for example; would you say that you hung out mostly with Armenian children or non-Armenian children? 4:17 AH: We just had that conversation. So, we did the whole seven-day week going to school; five days a week. I just saw one of my kindergarten friends yesterday. So, I had very good friends from my neighborhood in Rego Park and Forest Hills, and then I had my Saturdays in Armenian school, Sundays at Sunday school and made some of my best friends doing church basketball, ACYOA, the youth group all these things. I would say it was probably fifty-fifty; maybe forty-sixty with the 60 percent being Armenian and it was a saving grace because you know all the issues you go through in school it was nice to always have your Armenian friends as either a real cover or a fake cover. So, if you did not want to go to certain parties or you are busy with your basketball friends or your church friends or whatever, so, you know it was probably half and half. I mean one of the things we had that we have tried to growing up which we have tried to maintain now is families who we were friends with so our kids are friends with their kids. It is almost a set social outlet. It gets a little tougher when the kids are teenagers but you know we are friends with the parents, our kids were friends, so we are all cousins, aunts and uncles everything like that, but it has gotten harder. 5:26 GS: Would you say that as a child your Armenian group and your non-Armenian group were separate? 5:31 AH: Yes, very much so. 5:32 GS: Um, where did you– what was the highest level of education that you achieved? 5:36 AH: I got a Master’s in Public Administration at NYU (New York University) and I did my Bachelor’s at Queens College like I said. 5:44 GS: Growing up what would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community that you were part of? 5:49 AH: The church. 5:49 GS: The church? 5:50 AH: Uh-huh. 5:50 GS: What kinds of activities would they have beyond just traditional church services? 5:54 AH: I did not really do youth things until after age eighteen and those where never in the traditional church, you would always find out to do them outside. But it was, you know, church basketball which was never done in the church, it was done at basketball courts around the region, and after graduating college it was different Armenian related like young professional’s groups like that and those spaces were usually social spaces in Manhattan. 6:20 GS: What other kinds of traditions beyond the language and the religion did your parents try to keep for you guys growing up? 6:26 AH: I would say family. The importance of family I mean I was jealous of all my friends used to go to Florida on vacation because I would have to go to Egypt, Beirut, Jerusalem, Armenia, you know so we travelled all the time. 6:38 GS: So, you travelled abroad a lot! 6:40 AH: From the time when we were born we were travelling, because of all of our– my grandparents, well actually my mother’s side came to Boston when we were young, so they were here. My father’s parents were in Jerusalem until they passed away. We used to see them very often. We had extended family in Armenia. So, it was, you know we did a lot of travel, so whereas kids go to Disney World and do things like that you know we were deprived of those things. [laughs] So was that, it was the get-togethers, it was obviously the holidays. It was cultural events, it was political events, I mean my dad was very politically involved and aware so you know– 7:17 GS: What kinds of political events? 7:18 AH: Um, well there was an Armenian man named Sam Assadian, who passed away few years ago who I adored, who worked for then mayor, Ed Koch. I want to say he had some connection to Lindsey also. But we used to go to things at Gracie Mansion then obviously in the (19)70s going into the eighties some of the Armenian genocide recognition started build–building up a little bit more steam. This was the era of terrorism ASALA which was not a group that we were proud of at all, it was basically Armenian revolutionary fighters who were fighting for recognition of the Armenian genocide in ways different than we try do now. But there was then a counter to that which was unified groups of Armenians from different sects got together and tried to get political recognition in Washington and whatever else. So, it was a lot of information sharing, lobbying or advocating. I should say lobbying; a lot of advocating, you know advocacy work. The Armenian Assembly was a big organization I was involved in from probably early (19)80s I was in in term with them and stayed involved with them forever. So, a lot of meeting politicians I worked in politics and governments for years so that gave me an opening to meet a lot of pretty influential public officials. So, it was a lot of you know trying to educate people about us our people, our history, some of it was genocide related, some of it was just history related. You now the big joke among Armenians is we were the first Christian nation, we were the first Christian nation and we were just in Rome with the kids last year we took them for the Pope’s event and someone there said something about Constantine, and you know Christianity and Catholicism and Armen who was thirteen said, Oh no Armenian was the first Christian nation, [laughs] so you know, it is like kind of it perpetuates itself. 9:05 GS: Okay, so it sounds like were in a very large and active Armenian community growing up? 9:09 AH: Yes. 9:10 GS: Where was the Church that you attended? 9:11 AH: Bayside– 9:12 GS: The Holy Martyrs? 9:14 AH: The Holy Martyrs. But we spent so much time in Watertown because that is from my maternal grandparents where my grandmother and my grandfather passed away when I was three. We used to spend probably a weekend a month or a weekend every six weeks in Watertown and we go to Church there too. 9:27 GS: Okay, um so, going a little bit to your adult life, you are married and you said you have children, can you tell me about your husband and your children? 9:35 AH: So, my husband Stephen used to play at the same church basketball league and his sister and I were, went to the Armenian Assembly internship program together and interestingly his dad who I have enormous respect for was friendly with my dad and he was on the policy side of the committee when my dad was doing the diocese side and anyway, so Stephen and I were friends for a long time before we dated. He is also pretty much first generation, although his dad was born in New York City, but he is equally Armenian, but very different, did not grow up speaking Armenian and so we have married twenty-two years, twenty-one, twenty-two years now. We have two kids, Kenar is sixteen, junior in high school, Armen is just now fourteen, eighth grade and they are, I would define them as pretty Armenian, they are not involved in youth group, they do not do ACYOA, both graduated Armenian schools begrudgingly first and both of them are thrilled and very proud. Now we just kind of cool to see. You know they would not say it but both of them speak Armenian and they both love that they are graduate. They are both in Sunday school so they are learning the faith. You know, it is a little bit more challenging I think now to do the stuff we did growing up because the demands that school and American world is so much more pressing than for us. But you know, we have been to Armenia couple times as a family. I took them out of school to take them to the Pope’s service in honor of the Armenian genocide last year. So, you know, we were definitely driven by things Armenian. 11:14 GS: Would you say was it important to you growing up that you end up marrying someone who is Armenian? 11:18 AH: So funny you asked that. My dad passed away when I was just graduating college. So, he was not there for it. And it is funny we used to joke around and say we have to marry an Armenian but they never, you know my mother says it more now as if it was really nice but no there was no pressure. 11:34 GS: There was no pressure? 11:35 AH: No, and I think that helps because ultimately you see how challenging life could be and it is nice to be with someone who you are really compatible with. 11:45 GS: So, there was not any pressure on you but did you personally feel was it important to you? 11:48 AH: I think in the end I was thrilled. I mean especially now. But it was not like a pressure but it was it would be a really cool thing to do. So, I remember dating someone who was not Armenian and he loved Armenian things, he loved learning and he loved everything and he said to me. I will become an Armenian. I was like okay, but you still do not get it, you know. And that is not the reason I broke up with him, but I think in hindsight when people say it is nice to have common ground something to it. 12:18 GS: Okay, so you said both of your children speak Armenian now. How did they learn it? 12:27 AH: Oh yeah remember, Tata, did you have–Remember, the baby sitter? 12:30 GS: Oh, Tomsic! 12:31 AH: Yeah, we called her Tantic but Kenar named her Tata when she was one. So, we had, my mom was really involved when my kids were around, I used work full time, still do. So, our first baby sitter was full Armenian from our Church only spoke Armenian with the kids and my mom was around all the time and she was basically their caregiver as well. So, they were surrounded by– 12:54 GS: So, they learned by immersion? 12:55 AH: Totally. 12:56 GS: Was there any–did you send them to Armenian language school? 12:58 AH: Yes, Armenian language school. It was fine, it was great. 13:01 GS: Weekends or– 13:02 AH: Saturdays. All day Saturdays for hours. 13:05 GS: So, they attended regularly? 13:06 AH: Yeah, but the regular public school, the reality is you do not learn Armenian in Armenian school only, if we enforce, we learn it in the home. So ̶ 13:15 GS: What kind of traditions did you try and maintain in the household for your children to give them an Armenian heritage? 13:22 AH: Well, there are a lot of books, there is sometimes things on TV, and it is not really so much traditions, aside from the holidays and the family get-togethers. It is a lot of just being surrounded, like in our den we have my husband’s great grandmother socks that she wore during the desert marches, you know during the genocide with the holes on the bottom, like they are hand-knit gorgeous wool socks, so I actually spent money had them mounted and framed. And there are conversation points. My grandmother, my mom’s mom who passed away when she was a hundred, her ilik (spindle) which is how she would basically make her wool is on our den shelf. So, you know these are kinds of things you do not talk about every day but they definitely know they are there and they ask questions about them once in a while. And every once a while now their friends will be up what is that and then you will hear them out of the corner. 14:15 GS: Okay, so how do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? Do you think it is something that was an accident or do you think it is something that has its own unique identity? Do you think it is something is evolving or it has more permanence to it? 14:27 AH: Okay, so I am in a very different position talking about this because I am on the board of AGBU [Armenian General Benevolent Union] which is probably largest philanthropic Armenian Organization and we have this very strong belief now that diaspora is not what it used to be. It used to be that we had a homeland. People fled it during the genocide and created little diasporas-Middle East, South America, New York, then LA (Los Angeles), Western Europe and now interestingly the diaspora is larger than the homeland. You look at Russia, you look at Los Angeles, South America, Western Europe– New York to an extent, but we are not the largest any more. And the diaspora in New York is very different than the diaspora in LA (Los Angeles). So, now you have got a huge outside country, country and you have got Armenia. So, I would say the American diaspora is not what is used to be, it is constantly evolving and redefining itself either by choice or by fact, but you know the issues in Armenia are very different now than they were before independence. 15:34 GS: How is the diaspora changed in America? 15:36 AH: Because of the immigration who they are coming and what they are doing, you know if you were told me thirty years ago that you have diaspora population in, can you hold on one second– [You are very good; you are very good at this] Uh, if you told me thirty years ago that there might be Armenian gangs and you know and this is nothing to be proud of but the population, in the LA ((Los Angeles) diaspora is a population that has done things that you are not particularly proud of as enterprising you know immigrant community and whatever else I would have laughed at you, I would be no way Armenians are all hard workers, and we follow the rules and were you know, so I think in some ways we have got some of the most successful and we do this things now through AGBU with you know at prominent Alumni of AGBU related things whether its Camp Nubar or some of the internships we‘ve had scholarships programs and where they are, if you so some of these people, you are like are they Armenian, Oh my God, never knew that. You know and they just really make you proud as an ethnicity and then you hear some of the stories and you say “Oooh why are they doing that?” you know? But why are we different than any other diasporic community gets some bad and whole a lot good. So definitely the community has changed. 16:51 GS: How would you see the role of Armenian organizations such as AGBU in trying to bring new immigrants into the diaspora? Did you see it as focusing too much on recent immigrants versus multi-generational Armenian? 17:06 AH: No, I think for example like AGBU now has adopted this feeling of global Armenian nations. So, it is one nation and it is working with the different segments. So, we have a huge effort now with the whole issue in Syria and the refugees in humanitarian relief whatever, but the same time we have education programs aside from schools you know online learning which is obviously appealing to younger population. You know it is a whole e-Learning Center. Then, we have a– all kinds of cultural programs. So, it depends. For every type of Armenian there is a program, an opportunity, scholarships whatever it is, and there is no real preference given to one or the other but it is understanding how the needs have evolved and how the programs have a sort of reflect, those changing needs, so– 17:59 GS: Why do you think– how and why that the evolution happens from multiple different Armenian communities to one larger global diaspora? 18:07 AH: Well, we are not there yet. Because I think there is still is the pockets of diasporas but we believe going forward you better think of it as one global diaspora because if you do not you going to be so fragmented that no one is going to help each other. 18:20 GS: Do you see this attitude being taken up by other diaspora communities? 18:23 AH: Some. 18:23 GS: Some, such as? 18:25 AH: You know there is definitely some Armenian, I mean it depends if there is some Armenians based in South America who feel it. There is some based in Europe, some based in the Middle East, but there is still very much that old thinking of; we are fine, thank you very much leave us alone, you know we are doing okay. But I think because of probably technology more than anything else there is a common platform so for example, the young professionals which again something AGBU started years ago but the YPs [Young Professionals] ideally it is like a twenty-four to let us say thirty-eight type of an age group. But these are people who very much want to be engaged with similar people. There is more of a common thinking among them. They want to do all professionally. They are curious about their homeland. Most have travelled there already. They have an interest in helping, however, they can and they see similarities, so every–two years, you know, hundreds if not a thousand of them got together and there is more similarities and differences even if they are from culturally or geographically different places. So, technology has brought a lot of this together. 19:42 GS: Where do you see the American diaspora in say fifty to a hundred years? Do you think it is a diaspora that is growing becoming stronger or do you think that is at risk of losing its identity? 19:54 AH: Aspirationally I would say it is growing, and I actually think things like inter-marriage not terrible because you know I have found and maybe it is naïve I have many friends who’ve married non-Armenians who have brought them into the community to an extent, you know, who have been able to raise their children who feel that need to belong and be involved. So, I think and maybe its aspirational, it is going to get stronger if our homeland keeps us together. We need a strong homeland as all ethnicities do. And right now, there is challenges there. There issues of rule of law and governance and whatever else but I have always been a glass-half-full person and so I do not think you throw the baby out with the bath water. So, there are issues people talk about; corruption people talk about, unfair internal justice, okay, and my believe is to talk about them, and you try to make them better and I am a student of American history and I do not think America is perfect with any stretch of the imagination but you know you have enough people trying to do good work, so you make it work. 21:03 GS: If you could give one lesson to future generations of Armenians in trying to teach them how to maintain the cohesiveness of the diaspora, what would it be? 21:12 AH: Stay involved, stay informed, read, put thing in context. I mean the best thing, you know, I teach just adjunct now, but I tell my students you have to read, you have to even if just a news aggregator you just get headlines so what’s going on in Syria now is exactly what happened, I mean obviously, metaphorically but exactly what happened one hundred years ago. It just we are hearing about a lot more because of technology but things repeat themselves. So, you have to understand what goes on in certain places has happened before and you know? So I think it is: read, stay involved, stay form, do not say oh, I am so embarrassed by what I just read about this thing Armenian I am cutting myself off. That is kind of weak person’s excuse. 22:04 GS: How do you see your children? What do you think will be the differences between the way your children see their Armenian identity in the way that you saw yours? 22:14 AH: I hope not much, because you know my daughter’s pretty American, I mean if you asked her what are you, she would probably say American-Armenian or whatever but her dream is to go back to Armenian with a camera and just shoot non-Yerevan landscape. You know like that is kind of a cool thing for a sixteen-year-old to wanna do. So, I hope it is not much different. I think the reality is when we get together with our friends, the parents aren’t talking Armenian. It is not all about church politics, when hanging out with priests all the time, so it is a little bit different than the immersion I had. 22:49 GS: Where was the main social space when you were growing up for the Armenian community? 22:55 AH: I kind of say church a little but I think it was the homes. I think it was the homes and then you know as I got older like after college it was restaurants and bars in the city you know? 23:05 GS: Would you say it is the same for you children now? 23:08 AH: Probably the home. Because they go to church but it’s not like they feel cozy and comfortable there. 23:15 GS: Okay, Thank you very much. I appreciate it. 23:16 AH: That is it? Okay. 23:20 (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Arda Haratunian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f55ad5a375fdf5291728a532407fa941.mp3 d0cf314e49ad9727e3d3e52cd427d34f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 9/29/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Aristaks Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Aristaks Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 September 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:08 JK: This is Jacqueline Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s Special Collections library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is September 29, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:21 AK: Aristaks Kachadourian. 0:24 JK: And where were you born? 0:27 AK: Johnson City, New York. 0:30 JK: And– 0:31 AK: –December 12, 1932. 0:34 JK: And who were your parents? 0:39 AK: Um, Alice and Parsec Kachadourian. 0:45 JK: And where were they born? 0:50 AK: In Harput, Turkey. My father was born in the s–village of Aşvan my mother was born in the village of ̶ 1:06 JK: And, um, why did they imi– did– they immigrated to the United States, correct? 1:14 AK: Not directly. My father came by way of Ellis Island and my mother came by way of Canada. 1:25 JK: And– 1:29 AK: –Um and she came to the United States, um, from Canada, with her brother. 1:42 JK: And did they meet in the villages in Harper or they met? 1:49 AK: No, no. They met in Massachusetts. [indistinct] Right. Now my mother and father met in Massachusetts, in Providence, Rhode Island. 2:06 JK: Okay. And so what was the reasoning for emigrating to–what was their reasoning to come to the United States? 2:14 AK: I think primarily to, um, avoid the massacres that were occurring in, um, central Turkey. 2:31 JK: Now, were they directly associated with the massacres? Did it happen during their time– 2:36 AK: –No, but they had heard about–my father essentially, um, avoided being rounded up by the Turks in the village and he was able to escape, um, from the village by, uh, jumping into the water and swimming for his freedom. My mother, um, came by way of, um, Turkey to Lebanon where she met her uncle and she was able to save up enough money and afford passage to Marseilles, France and from Marseilles she went to Canada. 3:37 JK: And do you remember what time frame or year? 3:39 AK: Time frame was somewhere around 1927, 1927. 3:47 JK: Okay and, um, when your father was escaping the Turkish shoulder– soldiers, um, did they leave behind any family, uh, to escape, or–? Do you know of any stories? 4:06 AK: I really do not know the other circumstances by which he came over but the thing which attracted him to Binghamton, New York. He was staying in Worcester, Massachusetts with relatives. And from there he, um, came to visit his cousin in Binghamton and decided to stay after he was able to obtain a job working at the Endicot, Endicott Johnson shoe Corporation. That was what made him emigrate to the Binghamton area. 4:53 JK: And, um, while they, while your parents lived in the villages in Turkey, did they speak, what languages did they speak? 5:00 AK: They spoke Turkish and Armenian. 5:02 JK: Okay. And did that pass along to you and your siblings? 5:06 AK: Not the Turkish, although my Armenian is mixed with a lot of Turkish words. Um, I did not know the difference between the two. Neither did my brothers and sisters. Some words the– my parents would use, uh, that were Turkish, and I thought they were Armenian, but how was I to differentiate between the two? 5:35 JK: Um, do you recall any stories that your parents told about living in the villages? 5:40 AK: Oh, yeah, my mother, uh, the last she saw of her mother was, uh, when she was a child, she remembers being, uh, placed in a Protestant orphanage home and the last she saw of her mother was running down the street I assumed from the Turk– Turkish, uh, soldiers or police. And that was the last time she saw her mother. Her mother never came back to the orphanage to pick her up. She was about eleven, twelve years old. 6:21 JK: So, she was all by herself? 6:23 AK: She was by herself. 6:25 JK: Did she have any brothers or sisters? 6:29 AK: No. The only brother she had was the one that was being carried, uh, by her mother while she was running from the Turkish authorities. Her brother somehow came to the United States. She had one brother that I know that was living in, um, in Lowell, Massachusetts, and he, she had a father that had emigrated to the United States in nineteen ten. And he died of tuberculosis in the United States. Uh, in Lowell, Massachusetts. I know that he is buried there with my uncle, my mother's brother who came to Canada. I do not know if he was in contact with his father, who passed away with tuberculosis. But that is the only thing that I can remember. My uncle had a job. I think it was in the shoe factories in Lowell, Massachusetts. And he learned of my mother coming from Marcy, France to, um, Canada and he went to Canada and brought her. I do not know whether it was in Toronto that he went and got her or Montreal, I am not sure. I think it was Toronto. That, and this was about 1926, 1927. 8:21 JK: And so her brother came to America first, before she did? 8:24 AK: Yes, her father came first. Then her brother came here. The father had come here first to earn enough money to bring his family from Turkey to the United States. But she got the money that he sent to her to, um, come to the United States, but instead she used the money to buy a farm [laughs] and that is about all I know about it. 8:58 JK: And the farm was located in, uh, Turkey or America? 9:01 AK: No, that was, what was that? 9:06 JK: Was the farm located where? In Turkey or–? 9:10 AK: No, she did not bother to buy the farm. This was in the village of ̶ 9:14 JK: Okay. 9:15 AK: In Turkey. 9:15 JK: Okay. 9:16 AK: That she was supposed to use the money. 9:19 JK: And so her father left before the genocide occurred 9:23 AK: Oh yes, he came about–he came about 1910. There was another genocide back in 1909 that, in fact those three genocides one in 1896, one 1909, in fact, the one in 1996, I mean 1896 was when my wife Adrian, her father came over as a child at three at the age of three around 1896. That was the first genocide. The second genocide was in 8– 1909. And that was when, uh, my mother's father emigrated to the United States to earn money to pay for bringing his family over. But her mother never bought the, bought the–uh, used the money to come to the United States, she bought a farm instead. 10:32 JK: And the two other gen–the two other genocides that–genocides that occurred beforehand, um, your fa ̶ your mother survived both of them? 10:41 AK: No, my mother, my mother survived the 1896 one. Uh, she was old, she was not born in when the genocide of 1909. But that was when her father came to the United States. In (19)– I am sorry 1909, he came to the United States. She did not come until much later around 1915 or 1916. 11:13 JK: And you remember what year she, do you remember what year she was born in? 11:18 AK: She was born in 19 ̶ give me a second– to the United States around 1915, 1916. She was born in 1909, 1904. 11:46 JK: Okay. 11:48 AK: Gee I should have to go look at the tombstone. 11:53 JK: And, um, for the past two genocides 9– 1896 and 1909, that was with Armenia and Turkey– and Turkey? 12:02 AK: Yes, that was between the Armenians and the Turks. 12:07 JK: Okay. And, um, it was, I am assuming it was with the villages in Turkey? 12:12 AK: –Yeah. 12:13 JK: –That they started in. 12:14 AK: Yeah. Yeah. It was in the–the state or province of ̶ and no, in, um, in Harput, Harput. Harput was the name of the province. 12:37 JK: Okay. And, um, was there mass killings in– during those massacres or–? 12:43 AK: There probably was, but that was much later. 12:48 JK: Okay. And, and for your father, did you experience any of these, uh, other two genoc– or other two massacres? 12:55 AK: He was a young boy at the time he was about twelve, thirteen years old. He was born around 1900. 13:06 JK: Okay. 13:06 AK: So he would have been about (19)14, (19)15 fifteen when that took place. 13:11 JK: And– 13:12 AK: –Brought him to Binghamton, of course, so his– he was able to get a job here at the Endicott Johnson shoe factory. And that was what– he was living with my cousin. 13:26 JK: And, uh, do you recall any stories about him living in Harput? Do you recall any sto– do you remember him telling you stories– 13:34 AK: –Any stories at Harput? Not really. I have forgotten a lot of them I would have to think about it. Some of the time when I can rehash some of these stories. 13:49 JK: Of course. Um, do you remember the escape, how he escaped? 13:58 AK: Here, the only– he, um, ran from the village with his older brother, but he remembers the story that his brother was captured. And he survived the, the, um, arrests that were going on in the village, and he remembers that his brother escaped by jumping in the river and he was wounded with a shot in the side of his head. But he was able to swim in the river and get away, escape. His, uh, brother escaped to France and remained there and yeah he never came to the United States. But he has a–his name was Minas Kachadourian and his family settled in Marcy, France and ultimately in Leone, Leone, Leone, um, France. 15:17 JK: And they leave any other family members back in, uh, the village of Harput or–? 15:23 AK: The only one I know about was my father's brother in– that, uh, escaped with him to France. My bir–my father ultimately wanted to come to the United States, his brother stayed in France. 15:45 JK: Now growing up, did your parents talk about what occurred in Turkey? 15:51 AK: They did not talk very much about the–the massacres only that they would mention them but they would not relay any definite stories because they were such sad stories that they tried to suppress the thoughts of these episodes. 16:18 JK: Okay, going back to the life in Binghamton, um, do you have any siblings growing up? 16:27 AK: Yes, I have, uh, four siblings. My sister Louise, um, Henry, Arslan, Garabed. 16:46 JK: And, um, growing up did, uh, your parents speak Armenian to you in the household? 16:54 AK: They spoke Armenian and bro– broken English. What–what they learned by their communication with people in the community, but mostly they spoke Armenian to us. 17:10 JK: And, uh, when–when they came to the United States, your parents, did–they did not know English, I assume, right? 17:16 AK: No, they did not have any English at all. They learned gradually by their contact with the American population. 17:26 JK: And from your stance, they want to keep the Armenian culture and your family strong? 17:34 AK: Oh, yes. We have an Armenian Church, which was acquired in 1927. But let us see my parents were married in 1927. They met in maybe 1925, 1926. And, uh, my father, when visiting– the way they had met was my father, when, uh, visiting to Massachusetts, I guess he was looking to marry an Armenian woman there. But he met my mother instead. And I think this way the story was but the Armenian woman did not want to marry, marry my father. He wanted, so that he had purchased a ring to get engaged with and, and he let us see. And she did not want him so he went looking for another woman and met my mother and she essentially, uh, wanted to get married and ended up meeting my father and he brought her back to Binghamton and got married in Binghamton at the Trinity Memorial Church in Binghamton which is located on the corner of Main and Oak Street. 19:22 JK: And the reasoning that they stayed in Binghamton is because your father had a job– 19:28 AK: Had a job here, and they were living on Colfax Avenue with my, uh, cousin. And they were living on the third floor of my cousin's home. 19:45 JK: And do you recall in Lowell, Massachusetts, did they have a big Armenian community from the– 19:51 AK: In Massachusetts. Oh, yes, there is a large Armenian community. The first Armenian Church in the United States is located in Worcester, Massachusetts. And then subsequently parishes were formed or built, uh, in Providence Boston, Worcester. The largest community at the time, I think was in Worcester, Massachusetts. But then they began to spread all over the northeastern United States. 20:29 JK: And in Binghamton, New York, where you grew up in, um, was there a large Armenian community? No it was small but it, it grew. The community gradually increased with the advent of Armenians being able to work in the shoe corporations in Binghamton. There were many shoe, uh, factories, uh, Endicott Johnson being the largest on the west side of Binghamton. Uh, Dunn McCarthy's, uh, on the south side was Gotham shoe factories so that Armenians on the south side began to live on the south side because they worked at the shoe factory on the west side of Binghamton, and the second and third wards and fourth wards and Binghamton. Uh, most of the Armenians work that the Dunn McCarthy shoe factory. 21:35 JK: Okay. And, um, from this area, did you have a– so were the Armenians living close by from one another? 21:44 AK: Oh yes, they all lived, all the Armenians lives within walking distance from each other. The– there was a large group of Armenians who lived in the first ward, second ward and third ward. And most of them went to the Protestant churches here because there was no Armenian Church in, at that time and the Armenian Church was not, uh, purchased–it was purchased from the Ross Memorial Church, Ross Memorial, um, Episcopal Church on the south side. My Armenians on the south side went to that church. On the west side, some of them went to the congregation church on the corner of, um, Main and Front Street. But, and also a large number on the, uh, west side went to the Main Street Baptist Church on the corner of Main and Chestnut Street. This is where the churches are still located. 23:00 JK: And, um, so you are–and when you were growing up as a child, you went to the Armenian Church? 23:08 AK: Well– 23:09 JK: –When it was– 23:09 AK: –Whenever they had service, whenever they could get a priest to visit the Armenian Church, um, which was about four or five times a year was when the, uh, parish council were able to get a priest to come up and perform service and baptize some of the children. 23:33 JK: So you guys did not have priests for regular service? 23:37 AK: We did not have a regular service, but we had a priest sent to us by the diocese. In fact, we, my brother and I, Arslan and I, um, were not baptized until we were about eleven, twelve years old 23:57 JK: Oh okay. And, um, so growing up, did you attend church every time there was a service? 24:05 AK: When, whatever there was a service here, yes. 24:08 JK: And– 24:09 AK: My cous– I remember my cousin, uh, picking us up and driving us to the church, because we did not have a car at the time. 24:21 JK: And, um, for the services, they were once every few months, or–? 24:28 AK: I would say about once every three, three–four months was when we had sort of church service. Transportation was difficult at that time. We used to see the priests coming, I believe, from New York City. And at that time, it took about six to seven hours, by car or by, uh, train, however they came. 24:58 JK: And once the church was built, um, do you think the Armenian community grew stronger in Binghamton? 25:06 AK: Yes, the community became closer together because that was the one, one and only time every two to three or four months, that they would get together and have a dinner after a church service so that they could prolong the time of contact together. But they became stronger as the children also grew in the area and attended the schools. The number of children, uh, multiplied tremendously. 25:44 JK: And, um, going to school, did you have Armenian friends or normal American– 25:52 AK: We would develop a friendship. We would know each other, uh, ultimately, by going to school and knowing them in school as well as seeing them, you know, every three or four months. 26:11 JK: Now, did you guys have any other events within the Armenian community? 26:19 AK: No, just, um, after church dinners. We used to have a picnic, an annual picnic, where everybody got together, uh, whenever there was a wedding or, or a social or baptism, something like that, they would bring the community together in these social functions. 26:43 JK: Do you think most of the families, uh, during that time have left Binghamton or stayed? 26:51 AK: No, they, they, uh, decided to stay here because work was, uh, here. That is the reason why they stayed. Plus the children began to go to school here. And they attached a, a reason for wanting to live here because they knew or had nowhere else to go. We did not have a car to go traveling anywhere. So we were pretty much set–like many of the Armenians were– they just maybe had one family car that they could afford. And it took an awful long time to travel from one city to another. Uh, traveling to Massachusetts used to take as much as five or six hours. 27:48 JK: Um, now going to school did you–was there an Armenian school that you could attend here or–? 27:53 AK: There were– there, there were Armenian schools set up. Uh, Louise, my older sister, um, ended up going to Armenian school. She learned to read and write it as well. But, uh, we did not my other siblings never had the opportunity to go to an Armenian school, uh, when we were, uh, younger, but, um, my, uh, when we have subsequently developed a priest coming here more frequently, we have had schools I will get into that much later. But, uh, when we had a full time priest for a period of time, we would have Armenian classes, um– 28:52 JK: And did that include Bible school or Sunday school or– 28:56 AK: We used to have Sunday schools. I mean, this is back, uh, much later, after I came back to Binghamton, uh, from medical school and my residency, we used to have a Armenian Sunday school, but we used to have church services more frequently. 29:21 JK: And, uh, when you were growing up in high school and, uh, secondary school, did you associate yourself with the other Armenians in the community or–? 29:33 AK: No not really, more became assimilated with everybody, but we knew each other. We knew each other but we happen to be, uh, in classes with other Armenian students. And, uh, but that was after, uh, well, for example, the high school in the first ward, uh, which was Daniel Dickinson. It does not exist [indistinct] there used to at least be one or two Armenians in, uh, our class that we knew, um, but that was because we knew each other from, uh, playing in the playgrounds before we went to school. We used to play in the, um, field on Jarvis street with other Armenians, but we play with a lot of, uh, Slavic children. Uh, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, we, um, had a close association with, with, um, them as we grow up, you know, from the age of five to the age of fifteen, uh, we played with each other, there were always some Armenians that we played with in the community. 31:06 JK: So, um, after, uh, school you went on to college. And, um, what school did you attend, after– 31:17 AK: What’s that? 31:18 JK: What University did you attend after? 31:21 AK: Well, I graduated from Binghamton Central High School. It was Binghamton Central High School at the time. It is now Binghamton High School. I went to, um, Syracuse University and graduated from Syracuse around 1955, (19)56 and I graduated from med–the medical school at Syracuse, which was the State University of New York College of Medicine. And then I went from there to New York City. Af–after spending eight years in Syracuse, I went to New York City to do my internship and a surgical residency in general surgery and my, um, Vascular Surgery at, um, Mount Sinai in New York City. I came to Binghamton in 1966 and went into a practice of surgery with Dr. Bowman and Dr. Peters. And I have been practicing ever since. 32:43 JK: And– 32:44 AK: –Since 1966, my partners have passed away. 32:50 JK: You are the only one left. 32:52 AK: I am the last. 32:54 JK: And what was your reasoning after traveling to Syracuse and New York City, uh, coming back to Binghamton, did you want to come back because your family or–? 33:03 AK: I was coming, I was coming back to my hometown. I practiced, um, for about two years. And I got drafted at the height of the Vietnam War. I ended up spending two years in the Army. 33:22 JK: And– 33:23 AK: –And, and after that, I came back to Binghamton– 33:27 JK: To practice, uh– 33:28 AK: To practice general and vascular surgery. 33:33 JK: And, uh, whilst you are in–when you were in Syracuse and New York City, was there a stronger Armenian community? 33:42 AK: Yes, I ultimately got married in nineteen–in nineteen sixty, and, uh, in fact that met my wife in 1960. We got married in 1960 and finished medical school at the same time. I went to, um, New York City and we used to go to the Armenian Church in Queens. We lived in– my wife and I lived in, um, Brooklyn at the time, and we went to the Armenian Church in Bayside, New York. And then I went into my residency of surgery. We lived in Jersey City and we went whenever I could get away from the hospital and get free we went to the Armenian Church in Union City, uh, New York, I am sorry New Jersey and, uh, lived there until we came to Binghamton. 35:00 JK: Uh, going back to when you were growing up with your family in Binghamton. Um, did you see Armenian, uh, presence in your family life? Or did you see more Americanized? 35:15 AK: No Armenians did not really have a opportunity to socialize, because there was no, uh, common activity that would bring them together like a church service–whenever they have church service. So the Armenians did not socialize that much they did not, um, they did not get together too frequently because there was not a good meeting place. There was an Armenian club on Jarvis Street. Uh, but I was too young to ever go there. My dad used to go there. There used to be an Armenian club on Jarvis Street, which was located near Main Street on Jarvis Street. Then there was another Armenian club on Main Street, which was near–the landmarks are now all gone. Um, there used to be a theater–the Jarvis Theater, which was located just about fifty yards from the, um, Clark Street and on Main Street, the–the Jarvis theater is gone. The furniture store is gone. The A&P across the street is all gone. But there was an army in club there and that was in existence even when I was up to the age of, uh, eighteen. And then that gradually fell apart as people begin to pass away, the old timers just did not keep it up. 37:15 JK: And what– do you recall what you are even though you were young, do you recall what they did at Armenian clubs? What kind of events? What–what did they do at the Armenian clubs? Just hang out or? 37:27 AK: No, no, the Armenian kids did not really– Armenian children did not really get together to play with each other maybe there was only one family that I remember the Avedisians, Avedisians, um, who lived on Jarvis street when we lived on the corner of Main of Clinton Street and, um, Jarvis street. It was probably the only Armenians that we played with, the Avedisians they were–Antony Avedisian, uh, Archie Avedisians and Michael Avedisians. Michael became an officer in the United States Army, then became a lawyer and practiced out in Paducah, Kentucky. Andy Avedisian, his younger brother became a lawyer. I know, I remember he went to NYU law school in New York. And Archie worked for the boys club. My brothers, my brothers are all self-employed. Go ahead. 38:51 JK: And, um, you are saying about the Armenian clubs, clubs that they had during that time. What did they do at the Armenian clubs? 39:00 AK: I never went to them because I was too young to go. 39:04 JK: Yeah did you hear any stories or anything or–? None. 39:07 AK: No. No, my dad did not, he just– all he did there was play cards [laughs]. That is all I can remember. 39:19 JK: And, um, going back to, uh, meeting your wife, did you want to marry an Armenian or did your parents? [cellphone rings] 39:31 AK: Yes. But I was not going to marry her while I was still in college or I was in medical school but in my very last year in medical school is when I met my wife at an Armenian dance that I was going to. I was in between clerkships in medical school. So I was free that weekend, and a group from Syracuse an Armenian group from Syracuse, um, decided they want to go to the Armenian dance in Springfield, Massachusetts. And I was going with a girl from Springfield, Massachusetts at the time. So, I joined them in going to the Armenian dance in, uh, Springfield, Massachusetts. And that is where I am instead of paying attention to the girl that I was going with, I met my wife, Adrian at the dance and decided to marry her. And while I was in Syracuse, I did become associated with the, uh, Armenian club, in– of you– young people in, uh, Syracuse and, uh, became affiliated with the Armenian Church in Syracuse, which ultimately purchased a Protestant Church and converted it to an Armenian Church. And I was very active with the Armenian youth in Syracuse while I was there in Syracuse for eight years. I was four years at the university and four years at the Medical School. So, I spent a great deal of time with a close friends that I developed in the Armenian community who were initially going to the university. 41:50 JK: Was– 41:50 AK: –And maintained that friendship. Even coming back to Binghamton. I have still had a close association with the Armenian peers my age at that time we have grown together as a community. 42:12 JK: And before they bought, bought the Protestant church was there another Armenian Church that you attended? While at– 42:18 AK: No there was no Armenian Church, they were using a, a, um, a, uh, meeting club that belong to a, um, a Protestant organization or there may have been a small compound that was used by the, by the, um, young people in, uh, in Syracuse. But they had a rented a Protestant facility, uh, in Syracuse and used to have their church service whenever they could get a priest come to the– come to the, um, community. I am going to get a drink of water. 43:18 JK: So, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian? Or was it your decision or–? 43:22 AK: No, I just never thought of marrying anybody but an Armenian. Since I had a close relationship with my parents, I just never put the idea or thought in my mind, because I was, number one, in school, in college. I never thought about wanting to get married before I finished college. Number two, uh, I did not think about wanting to get married even while I was in medical school. So the topic never came up or the thought never came up even to mention it to my parents. I met an awful lot of girls. It was just that, the desire to wanting [coughs] the desire to want to get married while I was in college and medical school until I was– reached the age of twenty-six. Then I started looking. 44:28 JK: And, um, what was the–so when you wanted to get married, it was only, you only focused on Armenians. 44:36 AK: I met a lot of Armenian girls, but I was not interested because I was still in medical school. But then when I was in my senior year, I thought this was a perfect opportunity to want to get married. So I started looking, but not really seriously but, and I did not meet Adrian until I was in my last six months of medical school. 45:13 JK: And, um, going to more generalized ideas about Armenian, uh, culture–what do you think makes you most Armenian? 45:24 AK: I think I am, I have always had a, a interest in [indistinct] a interest in the Armenian community, the Armenian Church, even though I had limited exposure to it. Because even in my serious years of education, which was between eighteen and twenty-six that I, that I thought, being more serious about it because of the history of the Armenian Church, uh, and what little I had learned about it without any formal education. 46:20 JK: And what does it mean for you to be an Armenian? What does it mean for you to be an Armenian? 46:28 AK: It means for me to be proud to be an Armenian. The fact that I am, uh, interested in as much as the history of the Armenian, Armenians– the history, the Armenian Church makes me feel that I am proud of my, um, not only my community, but the Armenian folkways its mores are all a–as rich as any other, other racial denomination. As a result of that, uh, desire of being proud of the fact that it is a, a history that if, every time I get an opportunity to read about the Armenian Church, the Armenian history, the Armenian Church and how intricate the Armenian Church has become to the history of Armenia itself. It has suffered many hardships, many massacres over the years that, um, it has survived, but the Armenian Church has still survived, in spite of all these, uh, tortures, genocide, massacres, that the church and the community and the people have still survived. 48:19 JK: And, um. 48:26 AK: He is probably asleep. [laughs] 48:30 JK: Uh, and how would you define yourself, uh, right now? Would you, would you– 48:35 AK: Demi– define myself in the Armenian– 48:41 JK: Uh would you be American-Armenian, Armenian-American or one hundred percent Armenian or–? 48:46 AK: Well, I would like to be a good Armenian-American– as proud as other ethnic groups are proud of their background whether they are, you are Irish, Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, these other religions and these other groups of people are as proud of their, uh, ethnic background as the Jewish people are, for example. They are proud of their historical background. I am very proud and put mine equal to them and equally strong as they are toward their religion and their faith that I am closely, I have a close feeling, deep feeling for my own ethnic background. 49:51 JK: And have you ever visited or went back to the villages or Armenia? 49:56 AK: I have been to Armenia twice and I have enjoyed the–both occasions, the first time I was able to go there with my parents. The last time I have been to Armenia, um, that I feel a, a sense of wellbeing in the Armenian nation itself, the very earth that my parents, and the reason I am so, um, so proud of it. I am, I am proud of the fact that, number one, that in spite of the, um, the, uh, the fact that the Armenia, Armenia up until 1991, was occupied by the Soviet Union. It was Soviet socialist Republic. But now Armenia is an independent nation. One can divide– devise it is, uh, exact location in the fact that it is between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. It was occupied by the northeast corner of Turkey, the southern border of the Republic of Georgia. Uh, it is, uh, north of Iran. It is even though it is a very small country, it was a– the smallest of all the Soviet Socialist Republics. But I was proud being there with its people, three million people. The capital is Yerevan, the capital city was as modern as populated. It is a city of one million people. Just traveling to various historical places in Armenia was very proud and made me proud of just being there. I would like to go again, if my health permits. And, uh, everybody that I went with over there, would like to go back again? I mean, that is how strongly they feel, they felt about the being proud of the fact that they were Armenian. And even those, those who married into the Armenian, uh, faith as a result of, um, marriage are also enthusiastic about wanting to go back again. I will think about it [laughs]. 53:01 JK: Of course. Um, and do you think you can remain Ar– Armenian without the language or the church or the homeland? 53:09 AK: Many people, many Armenians who, uh, grew up Armenian may not have a file, a strong ability to speak the language, but they still want to remain or be Armenians. It helps a bit to be able to speak the language even more to be able to read it. I do not read it as well. I try to speak it the best I can. 53:46 JK: And what about the church? 53:48 AK: The church I feel very strongly about supporting the church, being a part of the church, going to the church as often as they have a, uh, religious service, if they had a church service, every Sunday, I would go to church every Sunday. At the present time, we have a visiting priest who comes to Binghamton, uh, twice a month, but I go to church or twice a month, because there is a service. And it gives a perfect opportunity to be together with people. And the closeness and bond is still there. 54:36 JK: And what about the homeland? 54:39 AK: I am st– I strongly support the home– homeland. As I said, I have only had the opportunity to go there twice. And I have enjoyed it. And I would love to go to back again. 54:53 JK: And did you ever visit the villages? 54:56 AK: Yes. 54:55 JK: Of your parents where they grew up? 54:57 AK: Oh no, no, those were in Turkey 55:00 JK: Okay. 55:01 AK: No, I, just, I would not want to go to Turkey. But I would want to go back to Armenia, because I feel that closeness, that adherence to the church, the people, their government. Very interesting that they have a democratic government in Armenia, and they are still in the midst of a upheaval around them. By that I made the Kurdish population in Turkey, want to become independent of Turkey. That is going to be an interesting problem. 55:46 JK: All right. I think that– 55:48 AK: Hope Arme–Armenia just does not get involved in that. But it is fortunate that the Armenian nation as it borders Turkey is protected by Russia–by the Russian government, the Russian, um, border guards the Armenian border guards are Russian that essentially tells Turkey that they are protecting them. 56:23 JK: And one last thing, what do you–what are your thoughts on, uh, America not supporting the Armenian genocide or not calling it Armenian– 56:33 AK: You mean our– America supporting Armenia? 56:35 JK: Or, uh, not recognizing that it is a genocide. 56:40 AK: That is a political thing. Political– I mean, we were promised that by presidents that they were going to do it, Bush, President Bush promised he was going to do it when he became president Obama promised he was going to recognize the Armenian Genocide but the Turkish Government has a very strong presence in Washington. But one of these days, they will have reco– they will recognize it, because many other countries have. In fact, in France, it is against the law to deny that the Armenian Genocide occurred. 57:21 JK: Is there anything else that you would like to add on this interview? 57:26 AK: No, I– get another opportunity where I can think more fully. I would love to have another conversation. 57:36 JK: Of course. Well, thank you so much. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Dr. Aristaks Kachadourian (1933-2019) was a general surgeon. Born in Binghamton, N.Y., to Armenian Genocide survivors, Dr. Kachadourian received  his Bachelor's of Science degree in Chemistry from Syracuse University and his medical degree from  the State University of New York College of Medicine in Syracuse, NY. He is survived by his wife and five daughters.  Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Aristaks Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/31bd76c25ad0ace2404fb438524a084e.mp3 c5cee36a76fa308b4077024b1f1029d1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. OHMS Object URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ArmanjiAvras.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Date of Interview 8 March 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Erdem Ilter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Armanj Amin and Avras Taha Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 100:30 minutes Language English Biographical Text Armanj: At the age of 6 he had to flee his home country of Baghdad for Duhok. In 1996, he left Duhok and arrived in the United States. Armanj has a degree in Business Management from Erbil University and a degree in Civil Engineering from SUNY Broome. Avras: He was born in Duhok and lived there with his extended family, while his father was fighting for the Peshmerga. His family fled Kurdistan in 1996 and arrived in the United States via Guam. Avras has a degree in Civil Engineering from SUNY IT. He lives with his wife and a daughter in Syracuse. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Keywords United States; Duhok; Saddam Hussein; Baghdad; Iraq; Kurdistan; Guam; Refugee; Binghamton; Culture; Syria; Turkey; Discrimination; Education Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Armanj Ameen and Avras Taha Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 8 March 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:09 EI: Okay, so let us begin with your name firstly. 0:15 AJ: Armanj Ameen. 0:16 EI: Armanj Ameen? Okay, yours? 0:19 AT: Avras Taha. 0:21 EI: Avras Taha. Eh, birthplace? 0:25 AJ: Iraq. 0:26 EI: Iraq? What, which part? What city? 0:27 AJ: I was born in Baghdad. 0:30 EI: Baghdad. 0:31 AJ: Yeah, I used to live in Baghdad. Then, after I was six years old, we moved to Kurdistan to Duhok City. 0:34 EI: And– 0:34 AJ: And now– 0:35 EI: Ah yeah, your experience will be different but actually because– 0:40 AJ: Oh yeah, I was only six years old in Baghdad and we moved to Duhok City and I stayed there; rest of my life until I came to this country. 0:45 EI: Eh, how many siblings do you have? Brothers and sisters– 0:48 AJ: I have two brothers. One passed away in ̶ for car, car accident and one sister. Now I have one brother, one sister. 0:57 EI: Okay. You? 0:58 AT: Um Duhok, Kurdistan 0:59 EI: Duhok, Kurdistan? 1:00 AT: Yeah. 1:02 EI: Ah. How old are you? 1:04 AT: I am twenty-four. 1:05 EI: Twenty-four? You? 1:06 AJ: Thirty-nine. 1:07 EI: Thirty-nine? You are uh like– 1:08 AJ: Fifty? [laughs] 1:10 AT: No, like early thirties. 1:12 EI: Twenty-eight, twenty-nine. 1:13 AJ: That is nice. 1:15 EI: Yeah, twenty-eight, twenty-nine. 1:17 AJ: Thank you. I try to stay in shape. [laughter] 1:21 EI: Okay uh both of you are originally ethnic Kurds and ethnic Kurds and Sunni Kurds? 1:27 AJ and AT: Yes. 1:28 EI: Yes okay, and are you married? 1:29 AJ: Yes. 1:30 EI: Yeah, uh same name again eh Armanj ̶ 1:35 EI: Yep. They should know who I am asking– 1:41 AJ: Oh yeah Armanj yeah. 1:43 EI: Yeah um, are you married? 1:44 AT: I am not married. 1:45 EI: Okay. [laughs] How many siblings do you have? 1:48 AT: I have three brothers and five sisters. 1:51 EI: Okay do you have any relationship like relative ̶ what is your uh– 1:52 AJ: Just, we are just friends, family friends. And– 1:56 AT: Yeah. 1:57 EI: Yeah, okay, okay and you are not cousins. 2:02 AJ: No. 2:02 EI: Yeah okay, eh education level? 2:03 AT: Um I finished Associate’s degree in civil engineering. 2:07 EI: Civil Engineering? 2:08 AT: Yeah. 2:09 EI: Um where? 2:09 AT: Broome Comm ̶ Community College. 2:11 EI: Okay. 2:11 AT: And I am currently attending SUNY IT to get my Bachelor’s degree– 2:12 EI: Okay– 2:13 AT: In civil engineering as well. 2:15 EI: Now you are doing your Bachelor’s? 2:16 AT: Yes. 2:16 EI: Okay, where S.U.N.Y. [State University of New York]? 2:20 AT: S.U.N.Y. I.T. [State University of New York Polytechnic Institute, a.k.a. S.U.N.Y. Poly] up in Utica. 2:24 EI: Ah in Ithaca? 2:25 AT: Utica. 2:26 EI: Utica. Okay, okay. You eh? Armanj? 2:29 AJ: I had two years in business management in Erbil University back in 1990s and here I got asso ̶ Associate degree in Civil Engineering. 2:40 EI: Eh in B.U. [Binghamton University]? 2:41 AJ: No, no, just at uh Broome Community College. 2:42 EI: Broome Community College. 2:43 AJ: From ̶ and I am doing work that is bad. I am doing bridge inspection. 2:48 EI: Yeah, what you are− 2:52 AJ: I am doing assistant team leader. I am doing the bridge inspection in New York State. 2:55 EI: In New York State? 2:58 AJ: Uh yeah generally. 2:59 EI: In the company? 3:00 AJ: Yeah, I mean in the company, Prudent Engineering. 3:02 EI: Okay. 3:02 AJ: A station in Syracuse and we go around according to the contract- wherever you get the contract because you have nine regions. 3:10 EI: Okay. 3:10 AJ: And uh in New York State wherever you get the contract you stay there for a couple years and do bri ̶ perform bridge inspection as 100 percent hands-on inspection. 3:23 EI: Okay yeah uh perfect. Your native language is Kurdish. 3:25 AJ: Kurdish. 3:26 EI: Do you know Arabic as well? 3:28 AJ: Fluently. 3:29 EI: Perfect. And English you know it. 3:30 AJ: Uh I try. 3:31 EI: You same? 3:32 AT: I know basic Arabic words. 3:34 EI: Basic Arabic words? Kurdish? 3:36 AT: Yes. 3:37 EI: Uh yeah and English ̶ 3:38 AT: Obviously. 3:40 EI: Okay number of years in United States here? 3:43 AJ: I have been here since I left the country in December (19)96. But we were stationed in Guam Island for three months. Then after Guam I got into United States in March of (19)97. 3:56 EI: 1997? 3:57 AJ: Yeah. 3:58 EI: So, since 1997, you were here. 3:59 AJ: Yeah. 4:00 EI: Okay. 4:01 AJ: Yes. 4:02 EI: Yeah, you Avras? 4:03 AT: At the same time. 4:03 EI: Same time? 4:04 AT: Yeah. 4:04 AJ: Same group of people. We went together to Guam. They were stationed as well around three months in Guam. 4:10 EI: What is Guam? Eh– 4:12 AJ: It is a Guam Island. 4:14 EI: Ah okay, before coming here? 4:16 AJ: Yes. 4:16 EI: Yeah. 4:16 AJ: To do the processing and get ready because back then many Kurdish people worked for NGOs [Non-Government Organization] in Kurdistan region. And Saddam Hussein was in power in Iraq and he start threatening anybody who work for American NGOs or non-NGOs, non-governmental organization. He starts threatening them so United States decided to pull everybody worked with them ah directly or indirectly so about five to six-thousand Kurdish people uh got out of Kurdistan through Turkey– 4:48 EI: For their security. 4:49 AJ: –Yeah went through Turkey and stayed there a couple days in Turkey and they flied directly to Guam and everybody stayed in Guam in a very nice army bases- very beautiful places for three months up to three months after they did the process and they start divide us sending people all over United State; in every state– 5:11 EI: Okay yeah, they asked you if you have any relatives, you want to go– 5:13 AJ: Exactly, yeah, yeah. 5:14 EI: You can or otherwise we will provide you. 5:16 AJ: Yeah absolutely yeah. 5:18 EI: Yeah it is perfect actually. 5:20 AJ: It worked out. It worked out. 5:23 EI: Yeah, Saddam’s perfected– 5:24 AJ: Yeah oh yeah. 5:26 EI: Yeah let us start ̶ you said eh Baghdad. 5:28 AJ: Yes. 5:29 EI: You eh until six years old you were there right? 5:34 AJ: Yeah. Yes, I was born. 5:36 EI: Do you remember anything about that? 5:37 AJ: Actually, absolutely because uh I used to like I still remember our house in Baghdad. 5:42 EI: Which years do you know? 5:44 AJ: I was born in 1974. And we left Baghdad in 1980s. 5:48 EI: (19)80? 5:48 AJ: But I still remember our house even after 1980s. 5:53 EI: How was it? Yeah– 5:54 AJ: I kept visiting my uncles in Baghdad– 5:57 EI: Ah yeah. 5:57 AJ: like every summer– 5:58 EI: Ah okay, okay, okay. 5:58 AJ: After school so– 5:59 EI: So, your memory is like fresh. 6:02 AJ: Very fresh yeah. 6:03 EI: Yeah okay, okay. 6:04 AJ: Last time I went to Baghdad, I was nineteen, beginning of 1990s. 6:06 EI: 1990s. 6:08 AJ: And one time I had to go to Baghdad and come back for some paperwork and stuff. 6:12 EI: Okay so how was it? How do you ̶ what do you remember? 6:15 AJ: Back in the– 6:16 EI: From the house, how was the environment? 6:18 AJ: Back then in 19–, when I was about four, five, six, or seven years old– 6:22 EI: Yeah. 6:22 AJ: –And then environment was kind of friendly environment, quiet. Uh, it was a lot of respect and a lot of technology was– 6:33 EI: In Baghdad. 6:33 AJ: In Baghdad. [clears throat] really good. 6:35 EI: Did you have TV for example? 6:36 AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah it was full. 6:38 EI: Really? 6:38 AJ: Absolutely. In 1970s, back then it was one of the top countries when it comes to technology. Cars, trains– 6:43 EI: Because of the oil I think, yeah. 6:45 AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, because it is a rich country because I remember two of my uncles, one from my mother’s side, one from my mom’s side were big contractor. They have huge villas, houses uh they were going ou- out of the country and coming back. It was, I can, I can tell you back then in the 1970s it was just like any European country. 7:08 EI: Countries yeah. 7:09 AJ: Now, yeah but not anymore. [laughs] 7:10 EI: Yeah of course. Now it is– 7:11 AJ: It is destroyed. 7:13 EI: Yeah, completely disastrous. 7:15 AJ: Oh yeah. Life is a cycle. 7:16 EI: Actually– 7:17 AJ: Life is a cycle. 7:18 EI: Yeah actually Baghdad like it was from the history it has always been really like part of modernization. 7:22 AJ: Really advanced. 7:23 EI: Trade. 7:23 AJ: Exactly. 7:24 EI: And there was huge museums. 7:26 AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely yeah. 7:28 EI: Now, unfortunately not. 7:29 AJ: Yeah it is been destroyed. 7:30 EI: So, do you remember anything from your house, your environment, like uh you said it was good. 7:37 AJ: It was good. 7:38 EI: Like you had many opportunities. 7:40 AJ: Oh yeah like– 7:41 EI: You could have like good life. 7:42 AJ: The whole neighborhood ̶ The good thing about Baghdad was your neighbors were your family– 7:48 EI: Okay. 7:48 AJ: Back then. 7:53 EI: Were they all Kurds or Arabs? 7:52 AJ: Mixed, Kurds and Arabs, Christians. 7:53 EI: Mixed. How was it? Do you remember anything? 7:55 AJ: Yeah, I do actually. The front of our house was a guy named Dilemy from Dilemy tribe, huge tribe in Baghdad. 8:01 EI: Arabic tribe? 8:02 AJ: Yes, Arabic tribe. 8:03 EI: Okay. 8:03 AJ: They called Dilemy. One of their sons was uh officer in Saddam’s army so every time there was a problem and he know Saddam’s people looking for Kurdish people, he was telling us, guys come to my house and hide- he was helping us. 8:21 EI: But I mean it was a personal protection, right? 8:23 AJ: Personal protection like Saddam were looking for Kurdish people. 8:27 EI: In Baghdad? 8:27 AJ: In Baghdad, just to harass them, hurt them, send them to the army or just because they were Kurds. He was trying to always put them down and make them as a second level– 8:39 EI: Yeah. 8:39 AJ: –Class people and he knew about it ̶ Our neighbor because he used to work for their army– 8:44 EI: Okay. 8:44 AJ: –But he did not like that so every time he knew about it, he was trying to gather all the Kurdish people around him and protect them from Saddam’s thugs or intelligence. 8:56 EI: Okay 8:56 AJ: –And I remember that part very well. 8:58 EI: Did you ever, did you ever go in his home or house? 9:01 AJ: Yeah, we, we, we used to go to his house for dinner, he come to our house for dinner, lunches uh− 9:06 EI: Yeah, I mean when hiding from intelligence. 9:08 AJ: Ah yeah, yeah just go to his house, sit down for a couple hours, and intelligence cars drive by nock the door nobody open and then they leave. 9:15 EI: Okay yeah. 9:15 AJ: So, it was not for a long time. 9:16 EI: Yeah 9:16 AJ: Couple hours only and uh ̶ 9:20 EI: Yeah 9:20 AJ: But in 1980s they forced my father to leave Baghdad ̶ Saddam’s intelligence− 9:25 EI: Yeah how was it? I mean did you go to school in− 9:27 AJ: I just started school in Baghdad and they started. 9:30 EI: Do you remember anything in school? 9:32 AJ: Ah first thing in school. I did not remember much but for ev ̶ ah you remember you get in the school, you saw Saddam’s statue, Saddam’s picture, Saddam’s this ̶ everything was about him. [laughter] Nothing is about real uh education about life or change. It was about him and him and him. 9:49 EI: Dictatorship, normal. 9:50 AJ: Yeah dictatorship. And after they forced my family, my father and my uncle to be ̶ to leave Baghdad immediately. We had to leave within, within twenty-four hours. We came– 9:59 EI: Why? I mean how was it? 10:00 AJ: Because my ̶ They were asking my father, my father actually was uh uh working for a Kurdish um TV station and the radio station in Baghdad and he was all about Kurdish. 10:15 EI: What was its name eh TV station? 10:17 AJ: I, I cannot remember. It was just called, the Kurdish, the Kurdish uh just Kurdish program. 10:24 EI: Ah okay, okay. 10:24 AJ: Something like that. It was not real name, just a Kurdish program. 10:27 EI: Was it in government control? I think– 10:28 AJ: It, it was under government control beginning of Saddam Hussein in 1979-80s so it was what they did- they went to that office and they ask a bunch of Kurdish people who have to become Baathist and my– 10:41 EI: Party member? 10:41 AJ: Yeah, they have to, they have to become a Baathist or party member and my dad refused. He would never work for Saddam Hussein. He was against Saddam Hussein in fact and he said “No, I will not” and he started running away to Kurdistan. We went to Duhok city. 10:58 EI: How, how was it possible to refuse it? I mean it would be difficult yeah. 11:01 AJ: He was, he could have, he could have been executed, so what he did- he refused it and he knew things are going to get out of hand so he came home, we rented a big truck– 11:17 EI: Okay. 11:17 AJ: And somebody, a driver with a truck ̶ I mean we knew him. We put all the stuff in the truck and we left Baghdad to Kurdistan next day. 11:24 EI: Oh okay 11:24 AJ: Next day. We left the home in Baghdad. We gave it to our neighbor and told him the Dilemy guy to take care of it until we can sell it someday. 11:33 EI: Yeah. 11:33 AJ: And that happened within a few years we sold the house and we bought another house in Duhok City in Kurdistan and it was much better. 11:42 EI: So, you could sell it uh, you could sell it. 11:45 AJ: Yeah you just sell it by the help of other people. 11:48 EI: Yeah, yeah okay so you start school in Duhok? 11:53 AJ: I started school in Duhok city in 1980. 11:56 EI: So, what was the main difference between ̶ Do you remember anything like? Maybe Saddam’s authority was much there or or– 12:03 AJ: Actually, it was the same but they were not, they could not go after everybody in Kurdistan because everybody is Kurdish. 12:10 EI: Yeah. 12:10 AJ: It was different than Baghdad. The school was kind of its better, better education, safer but everything again was about Saddam, Saddam did this. That is dictatorship you know, but there was not much difference in education. 12:22 EI: Were they ̶ there Arab students there? 12:25 AJ: Very few. 12:26 EI: Ah yeah. 12:26 AJ: You know very few in Kurdistan. There was maybe ten- ten in Duhok City and maybe there were, maybe there were about 8 to 10 percent Arab student ̶ People who worked for Saddam’s intelligence who lived in Duhok city. 12:42 EI: Ah. 12:42 AJ: Their family they went to school there. 12:43 EI: Okay, okay 12:44 AJ: That is how uh ̶ 12:45 EI: Their main language was Arabic. 12:46 AJ: Yes, main language was Arabic. EI: Could speak Kurdish in school or? 12:49 AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we speak- we spoke Kurdish. 12:51 AJ: Everybody could speak Kurdish, but there was only one class of Kurdish language. 12:56 EI: No, no I mean eh− 12:57 AJ: But in general− 12:59 EI: –But during the break or− 13:00 AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely, you could speak Kurdish to a teacher, Kurdish to your friends uh− 13:05 EI: Eh teacher knows Kurdish– 13:06 AJ: Oh yeah most teacher were Kurdish from Duhok city. 13:10 EI: Ah okay. 13:10 AJ: Most of them except some of them were from South and they were in the, in the society among the society just to find out what is going on as a type of control from Saddam’s intelligence. 13:24 EI: Ah but the, the education language you said was− 13:31 AJ: Was Arabic. 13:32 EI: Yeah okay, okay yeah, yeah okay so behind the assignment how was your relation with your friends not the macro-politics or macro-events like, like street emm− 13:42 AJ: Daily street life− 13:43 EI: Yeah street life, I mean ̶ 13:46 AJ: Actually, I mean we had uh starting from the elementary all the way to the ninth grade was kind of similar. We just spent time with friends from the class going playing soccer together; any other sport together was no problem. Then getting home after school, getting in the neighborhood at everybody neighborhood knew each other like a family. All the kids go out to play together and the parents either work or worry about the rest of the stuff uh ̶ We did not worry about anything. 14:22 EI: Yeah. 14:22 AJ: No politics, nothing involved except we used to hear stuff from our parents. “Oh this guy did this, this guy got executed, this guy got dragged to jail, that other person run away.” We used to hear stuff. We did not see from our own eyes until 1991 when Saddam attacked Kurdistan, everybody ran away; then I remember very well what happened. 14:44 EI: Yeah okay but for that time they were hiding from you right? What is going on− 14:49 AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they did not want to talk in front of us all the time. We just hear from here and there and because we were children, they did not want to give us involved in politics because if we said any word− 14:58 EI: In school− 14:58 AJ: In school, he always had somebody in school who will turn us in. They could have taken the whole family to jail or execute them or whatever. 15:09 EI: Okay. 15:09 AJ: –That is why we could not say anything about the party or Baathist at all at school. Every day you might ̶ Where our parents were reminding us do not talk about politics in school. Do not do that, that is it yeah. 15:21 EI: Yeah, I understand. 15:26 AJ: Yeah until 1991, then we had the no-fly zone; then we were free. 15:31 EI: Yeah. 15:31 AJ: That was a different life absolutely different life. 15:34 EI: So, 1980s, you could come to− 15:37 AJ: I was in Duhok city. 15:40 EI: Yeah okay. Do you remember anything like that affect you from- like it can be Eid or something, yeah personal story? That you do not forget or still you remember. 15:50 AJ: Yeah in 1980-1987 I think I cannot remember, (19)87 or (19)86, anyway I would say 1987 my grandmother died and our tradition, we had a ceremony for three days funeral in our house. 16:07 EI: Yeah. 16:07 AJ: We had a big garage so everybody was coming to our house for three days. 16:12 EI: From different villages, right? 16:14 AJ: From ̶ yeah from all over the place. 16:16 EI: Yeah. 16:16 AJ: One of my cousins used to live in Baghdad. He was in twelfth grade in uh high school. 16:23 EI: Yeah. 16:23 AJ: The last year of high school he was in Baghdad. Before my grandma passed away, by fifteen days, he was arrested by the intelligence of Saddam Hussein. 16:34 EI: For what? 16:36 AJ: We never knew, nobody knew. It was him and one of his friends was only in twelfth grade, not even eighteen years old high school. One of him and his friend, he was actually Arab Shiite from Baghdad. They were friends playing together at school, all of a s− 16:51 EI: A Kurd and a Shiite right? 16:52 AJ: Yes. 16:52 EI: Okay. 16:53 AJ: All of a sudden, they disappeared. 16:54 EI: They− 16:54 AJ: Nobody know what happened to them. 16:56 EI: They do not need another eh− 16:58 AJ: Exactly. [laughs] No, they did not even know they were Kurdish and a Shiite, twelfth grade, not even eighteen years old. They got arrested and nobody know where or how. His father trying to look for him through the school and hospitals everywhere. He could not find him. Anyway, after fifteen days when we had the funeral or ceremony in our house, his father, my father was sitting down in our garage and probably hundred more men and women sitting in our house. All of a sudden in Duhok City that is about six, seven hours away from Baghdad. We saw two guys from Saddam’s intelligence knocking on the door and telling us, “Where is Mahmoud Salih?” Muhammed Salih was my uncle, his father, and we said “Why what is going on.” He said “We have his son.” We were all shocked. We thought he is dead by now. 17:54 EI: Okay. 17:54 AJ: And we were all shocked. He said “We need two of you to come with us to the intelligence center.” They call it “Emn,” the security or intelligence center, the name in Arabic was “Emn.” So, my father and my uncle went there plus one more cousin. They went in front of the door and they start questioning my, my father and my uncle. “Uh we arrested your son and his friend by mistake. We thought he work for Hizb al-Da’wa’ the party,” the Islamic party from Iran. Two children cannot be working. That was just an excuse to, to, to put fear in people’s heart. And, when they took him out of the cell or the jail, he was beaten so much and tortured with iron he could not walk, he just could not walk ̶ both of them, they had to drag and put them in car, brought them home. Everybody forgot about the funeral. Nobody thought about funeral anymore. Everybody start thinking about them and the incident. 19:00 EI: Yeah, alive. 19:00 AJ: That was one of the small incidents I can remember and I can never forget because I saw him when he walked, they dragged him to the house. Stuff like that I, it is hard to forget and there were like other uh at Eid time, let us say for Eid or Newroz, specifically Newroz because it was a Kurdish ho- uh celebration− 19:22 EI: Yeah. 19:22 AJ: Everybody in Kurdistan in all three big cities Duhok, Erbil and Sulaimaniyah, everybody was getting up, going to the mountains, starting the fire and celebrating, singing and drinking or eating, doing whatever they can do. 19:35 EI: Yeah. 19:35 AJ: Picnics, all type of picnics. Everybody was free and screaming about uh national Kurdish songs and everything. Stuff like that, we did it every year. We cannot forget that. 19:47 EI: Yeah. 19:47 AJ: It was great. 19:49 EI: Do you remember anything about it? 19:50 AJ: Every year. 19:50 EI: What was your preparation for it? 19:53AJ: Like a couple weeks ahead of time, all the family gets together let us say about ten or fifteen families, cousins, uncles, aunts get together and decide who going to cook what. 20:04 EI: Oh yeah. 20:04 AJ: Oh, and I am going to get what type of vegetable and fruit and where we going and that day, we get up in the morning whether it is raining or not or [laughs] snowing. 20:12 EI: Yeah okay. 20:12 AJ: We used to go out and celebrate just to have that feeling of nationality, Kurdish nationality against Saddam Hussein. And that was the only day− 20:21 EI: I mean it was just like cultural celebration or does it have international view? 20:27 AJ: International view, mostly in Saddam’s time when he was in power- mostly it was just to prove to Saddam Hussein we are still Kurdish, we are still strong and no matter how many people you killed or executed, get executed, we still going to be here and we still going to fight. That was the message and every, every Newroz− 20:45 EI: Yeah. 20:46 AJ: And I am sure his father remembers that very well. 20:49 EI: Yeah. 20:49 AJ: Because he was, his father and his uncles were all uh Peshmerga fighting against Saddam Hussein for a long time. 20:57 EI: Is he living here? 20:58 AT: He lives yeah at home. 21:01 EI: Ah okay, we will see him inshallah [chuckles] yeah. 21:04 AJ: Yeah that is my story up to 1991 and everything after that was completely different life so– 21:11 EI: You have not born yet? [laughs] 21:16 AT: No. [laughs] 21:16 EI: So, now we eliminate you. [laughs] Okay yeah 1987 this is. You were in the high school or anything− 21:25 AJ: That was uh– yeah, I was actually in middle school− 21:32 EI: In middle school. 21:33 AJ: −Yeah, I was in middle school 1987- well no, no− 21:35 EI: Was there any conflict? 21:35 AJ: Wait yeah, I was in first year of middle school sorry. 21:36 EI: Okay, okay so was there any conflict at that time? 21:38 AJ: Oh yeah, the conflict between Kurdish and Saddam has never stopped since the day he took office in 1979. We had Peshmerga. The Kurdish uh party democratic and patriotic union. 21:52 EI: Oh yeah, he came to power in 1979? 21:54 AJ: Yes. 21:55 EI: Then one year later, you Kurds left the Baghdad to Duhok. 22:00 AJ: Not all the Kurds, only some Kurds. 22:03 EI: Yeah who were working for− 22:05 AJ: Or who, who did not accept to be− 22:08 EI: Baathist, okay. 22:09 AJ: Baathist. They, they left Baghdad. 22:11 EI: Eh who accept Baathist? They− 22:13 AJ: Yeah, some people accepted it just for their daily life− 22:16 EI: Yeah. 22:16 AJ: −Or routine. They did not want to change their life. 22:20 EI: Yeah. 22:20 AJ: Yeah because they− 22:21 EI: It is not easy yeah. 22:22 AJ: No, it is not easy because especially some of them had older children in college. 22:26 EI: Yeah. 22:26 AJ: They did not want to risk their future so they signed okay, we are Baathist, we are going to stay here until they finish. 22:32 EI: I mean what does it mean if you sign it and you are Baathist like− 22:35 AJ: Well Baathist was the biggest enemy of Kurdish nation. 22:38 EI: No, no I mean I know it but− 22:39 AJ: Oh. 22:39 EI: What was the requirements for it? 22:41AJ: You sign− 22:43 EI: Okay. 22:43 AJ: And you attend meeting whenever they want you to attend and they going to give you a weapon and you go fight against this this this for people whether you like it or no and when we tell you your brother is our enemy, you are going to go get your brother for us. If you do not do, do not do that that is when you are betraying the Baath and they will shoot you. That was the basical requirement− 23:08 EI: Yeah you become not party member and their soldier or everything yeah. 23:15 AJ: Everything the party and signature is just the way make a formality. 23:20 EI: Yeah. 23:20 AJ: Behind that you are their ̶ just a machine you become a machine and that is it. 23:28 EI: Yeah, so it is not surprising they came to power and then you left. 23:32 AJ: Exactly. 23:32 EI: And then you left okay yeah during the ̶ we talked about uh Newroz you remember, Ramadan do you remember? 23:40 AJ: Oh yeah, we used to re ̶ yeah, I remember Ramadan very well and how the whole city get ready for it and all the restaurants gets ready for it all the juice-maker, yeah uh people make juices and sweetness. 23:55 EI: Yeah. 23:55 AJ: Everybody gets ready and you see the lines out beh ̶ behind the store people buying all the refreshments. 24:01 EI: How was the welfare- do you remember? 24:04 AJ: In 1980s, in general in 1980s− 24:07 EI: What were people doing there like farming or− 24:11 AJ: In in Kurdistan, or general, my, my family a couple cousins all of them in Baghdad they like were either teaching or engineering uh or farming like chicken farms. 24:25 EI: Okay. 24:26 AJ: In Kurdistan, same thing my far ̶ we had a farm um a very small farm− 24:32 EI: Chicken farm? 24:33 AJ: Uh we had chicken farm and then we had others like farming just like fruit. 24:36 EI: Okay. 24:36 AJ: And before that we had a store for uh building material− 24:43 EI: Okay. 24:43 AJ: For three years. Then after three years in 1980 my father opened the store in 1983 and one of the intelligences took a lot of materials from my father and never paid him. Just to hurt him so he can close the store and he could not ask for the money because nobody can ask. 25:05 EI: Yeah if they pay− 25:07 AJ: Exactly, you cannot ask so he closed the store and after that we opened a farm an hour away from Duhok City on a mountain with like fruit; we had like all type of fruits. We did that for about three years, four years then we had a chicken farm− 25:22 EI: Okay. 25:22 AJ: And that is how we used to live. In general, it was farming and majority of people in Duhok City, they were like uh employed like either teaching uh or working in one of the offices uh like municipality. 25:37 EI: Service sector and− 25:37 AJ: Service sector exactly yeah in general− 25:41 EI: Construction? 25:43 AJ: There were small, there were small construction companies. There were probably a few of them in that town. 25:47 EI: Not building but uh− 25:48 AJ: Construction, roads− 25:50 EI: Companies like uh industrial− 25:55 AJ: No, no, no, no, no, no. 25:56 EI: There was not any of this? 25:57 AJ: No industrial except one factory was− 26:00 EI: Yeah factories yeah. 26:02 AJ: Making− there was one factory making in Duhok that was making uh tomato paste. 26:07 EI: Okay. 26:07 AJ: That is about it. 26:08 EI: Yeah. 26:08 AJ: That is all we had, rest was just− 26:09 EI: So, related to farming- 26:10 AJ: Yes, yes, yes. 26:11 EI: Yeah okay service sector, farming, and maybe animals− 26:18 AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah people had animals absolutely− 26:20 EI: Yeah. 26:20 AJ: People did. 26:21 EI: Okay so the ̶ I mean there was not any like em food uh supplies like− 26:34 AJ: Food supplies was not a problem because of the farming and Saddam had all type all food what do you call it− All type of food let us say dry not dry or whatever. 26:48 EI: Yeah. 26:48 AJ: Food was really cheap. 26:49 EI: Yeah. 26:49 AJ: It was really, really cheap because he was handing it to people. He was bringing it here. It was an oil country. 26:57 EI: Yeah. 26:57 AJ: So, he brought it and made sure there was enough food supply in every cities; not villages, but every major city have plenty of food supply yeah. 27:06 EI: Okay so as I know he like gave food to the people like for every family- sugar uh− 27:14 AJ: Yes, yes was assigned, every family was assigned. 27:17 EI: Did you get it or? 27:18 AJ: Yeah, yeah we got it. 27:19 EI: Was it for some families or− 27:20 AJ: No, no it was for all families, every families in cities. Every family got it. 27:25 EI: Okay so I mean there was not any discrimination in that sense, was there? 27:28 AJ: Not in Duhok. 27:29 EI: Not in− 27:30 AJ: Not in Kurdistan part of it unless if you, you used to live in villages. 27:35 EI: Yeah. 27:35 AJ: Then they were not really helping people in villages because villagers always helped Peshmerga or the Kurdish fighter. 27:41 EI: Yeah, I will ask about it. 27:43 AJ: Yeah so but in the cities, there was food always available− 27:47 EI: Oh okay. 27:47 AJ: Always available beside- beside the point if there was some poor families who did not get food. There was always other people donating food for them it was you know the culture. 27:57 EI: Yeah, yeah. 27:57 AJ: Yeah and the cultural thing. 27:59 EI: Or the civil negotiation. 28:00 AJ: Exactly or people take food for them every day− 28:03 EI: Okay yeah, I got you. 28:05 AJ: So that was available− 28:06 EI: Okay yeah so you said Pesh ̶ the villagers helped Peshmerga− 28:10 AJ: Yes. 28:10 EI: So, the conflict was not in the city actually? 28:12 AJ: No. 28:12 EI: Do you know− 28:13 AJ: Once in a while. 28:15 EI: Later maybe they come− 28:16 AJ: Like in 1980s, they did come to Duhok. They were attacking Duhok by like small mortars from the mountain. They were attacking for couple of minutes and going back to the villages− 28:27 EI: Yeah what do you mean by attacking Duhok the− 28:29 AJ: A, a, attacking, attacking the Iraqi soldiers− 28:35 EI: Okay. 28:35 AJ: Or the intelligence offices only. 28:35 EI: Okay. 28:36 AJ: Yeah. 28:36 EI: Yeah. 28:36 AJ: But in the war time, there was always mistakes so− 28:38 EI: Yeah, yeah so have not you heard anything about them? Do you remember anything about them? 28:43 AJ: Yes. 28:43 EI: Was there legend or something? I mean could you see them in street? 28:47 AJ: No but because my house− 28:50 EI: Yeah. 28:50 AJ: My house was right under the mountain− 28:53 EI: Uh huh. 28:53 AJ: And on the top of the mountain, there was always police point over there, not the police uh soldiers a couple small buildings for Iraqi soldiers on the top of every mountain around the whole city− 29:05 EI: Okay yeah. 29:06 AJ: Just for protection. 29:07 EI: Yeah. 29:07 AJ: And every time we heard like gun-machine I could hear it right from my house. We woke; I used to go up on the roof and look at it. The Kurdish fighter Peshmerga and then they are fighting each other I will look at them right in front of my eyes they were attacking each other and also uh Peshmerga were attacking and trying to bomb the intelligence of Saddam Hussein. Usually it used to last like five to ten minutes and everybody disappears again. The Peshmerga will back up and everything was quiet after that but in that time, you should not get out of the house because Saddam’s army and intelligence were all over the city looking for them. 29:49 EI: Okay. 29:49 AJ: In case they were entering the city− 29:51 EI: Peshmerga they were coming to city? 29:54 AJ: They, they never ̶ I never seen em myself. People said there were some Peshmerga in the city once in a while. 30:00 EI: Yeah. 30:00 AJ: But I never seen them myself. 30:02 EI: But they were hiding themselves− 30:03 AJ: Exactly oh yeah. Exactly. 30:07 EI: So was there any member of your family in Peshmerga I mean or− 30:11 AJ: I, I had like one two probably six or seven of my cousins were Peshmerga fighting against Saddam Hussein and actually my father was interrogated by Saddam’s intelligence many time. Why his nephews are Peshmerga many times. 30:31 EI: Yeah. 30:31 AJ: He was dragged to the intelligence office and being questioned and interrogated many times. 30:37 EI: Okay, okay so could you have heard about them? What are they doing or I mean− 30:41 AJ: Absolutely I saw them couple of times. 30:44 EI: You were conscious right when you were in high school? 30:47 AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah always. 30:50 EI: I mean you know that or do you remember the days of war between Saddam− 30:51 AJ: Oh yeah. 30:51 EI: And Kurds I mean. 30:54 AJ: Yes. 30:55 EI: It was not just the ̶ was it just or was it just rebellion group or you do not know what was going on between them? 31:00 AJ: No, I knew every time what was going on. 31:04 EI: Okay. 31:04 AJ: Even from my middle school until− 31:07 EI: You had sympa, sympathy to them. 31:09 AJ: Oh yeah, I had sympathy to them and I knew how bad Saddam’s people or intelligence are. 31:15 EI: Yeah. 31:15 AJ: Not Iraqi people you cannot mistaken that. It is not about Iraqi people, it is about intelligence. 31:22 EI: Yeah, yeah. 31:22 AJ: It is about Saddam’s uh− 31:25 EI: You said an Arab protected− 31:27 AJ: Exactly so there are always good people everywhere do not get me wrong some people mixed in the two things between Iraqis and no Saddam’s people are different than most of Iraqis. Not all Iraqis are bad that is not uh not true. 31:41 EI: I generally believe that identity of people who are in government; their identity is power. 31:47 AJ: It is true. 31:48 EI: Ethnic or religion. 31:49 AJ: That is absolutely true. 31:50 EI: Generally, I believe− 31:52 AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah so, I remember everything because we- every time I went to school there were Arab people in my school I was not able to talk about uh any politics. 32:03 EI: Yeah. 32:03 AJ: Or Peshmerga or anything like that or they would be dragged. 32:12 EI: Do you think ̶ did they tell you anything ̶ tell you anything like uh Peshmerga are bad or− 32:15 AJ: Yes. Every Arab kid in elementary school, middle school, high school I met their parents were Baathist very uh very loyal, very loyal to Saddam. They were brainwashing their kids to come to school and interrogate us indirectly and ask us questions: “Do you like Peshmerga or do you like Saddam? Uh are you willing to fight for Saddam Hussein against Iran? Are you willing to fight Saddam Hussein against this or that?” They were always asking these questions and even teachers. 32:47 EI: Yeah, yeah. 32:47 AJ: Like Kurdish teachers were afraid to get involved. 32:52 EI: Yeah. 32:52 AJ: Because a teacher would not be able to tell that kid do not do that. This is school. Because his father one of the big shots in the government he will hurt them. 33:01 EI: What about the teachers? 33:02 AJ: 90 percent of the teachers were Kurdish, very conservative they always trying to protect us as Kurdish people because they knew how bad these Baathists are. 10 percent of them were Arabs and some Kurdish who are worked for Saddam Hussein as well. So, they were mixed but majority of teachers were helping children in general. 32:26 EI: So, was there any discrimination? 33:30 AJ: Not that I have seen− 33:31 EI: Okay. 33:31 AJ: I have never seen discrimination in my own eye. 33:37 EI: Okay eh, did you uh read the anthem or something uh during the day or was there a national day celebrating in school or what were they− 33:48 AJ: Every morning in school in Saddam’s time, we used to, they call it Estifaf. Everybody ga- gathers and in uh field in the middle of the school and you say the national anthem of Saddam Hussein for five minute and uh the principal would talk for a couple minute and then you start the class. That was every morning. 34:13 EI: Okay, do you remember anything from that anthem? 34:17 AJ: Not really [laughs] not really. 34:21 EI: What was it generally about? 34:24 AJ: It was just about our, our love of our country, you will die for this country, you will sacrifice for this country, and for the Baathist, stuff like that. 34:31 EI: Oh okay. 34:31 AJ: Yeah that was the main idea of it. 34:34 EI: Okay. 34:34 AJ: Yeah and something about the flag. Everything, cannot remember much of it. 34:40 EI: And uh do you celebrate eh the birthday of Saddam? 34:43 AJ: [chuckles] Oh yeah, the whole school was celebrating. [chuckles] You had no choice. It was just like a made it, made it kind of national− 34:51 EI: Yeah. 34:51 AJ: Uh events everybody it is Saddam’s birthday uh we had ̶ They pushed us to the street and we start walking to the street like all the children they were closing school because of that. I was like [laughs] uh that is very childish. 35:06 EI: You were in the street and like− 35:07 AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, all the student, every school in Duhok City they pushed out by Saddam’s thugs to the street and organize them and you have to walk to a front of the one of the Baathist party buildings and one of the guy comes out and talk to you. We were all children; we did not even know what he is talking about. 35:26 EI: Yeah. [laughs] 35:26 AJ: But if we start playing in the street, somebody will slap us in the face “Hey listen to him.” We did not know what he was talking about− 35:32 EI: Yeah, [laughs] yeah. 35:33 AJ: That was uh the days of Saddam− 35:36 EI: Yeah. 35:36 AJ: And I remember one time− 35:38 EI: Ah yeah please tell me. 35:39 AJ: One day we, we were in the street. They said Saddam will drive through the city and all the schools, every building uh dumped to the street, lined up waiting for Saddam Hussein to drive through the city. Like uh on something. I do not know I do not want to say it but if Saddam comes through the road, everybody has to be there and just do this. [clapping] All the way till he leaves just like a child and we saw one Mercedes, two Mercedes, ten, thirty, forty Mercedes keep going. We never saw him. 36:13 EI: But he was in there. 36:14 AJ: We never saw him. We do not know if he was in there. He could be, he could have gone by helicopter or by a different car at a different time. It was just all acting. It was all some type of acting to make sure people “Hey Saddam is still alive and you should be afraid.” 36:30 EI: Yeah. 36:30 AJ: That was the main idea. 36:33 EI: Ok do you remember any slogan from that time? 36:39 AJ: Mm it is hard because boy I cannot really ah hold on. [chuckles] Uh. “Live- live to ̶” 36:47 EI: You can say it in Arabic. 36:51 AJ: Yeah, “Ya’ish Ya’ish Saddam” like “live live Saddam.” “Long life to him.” Stuff like that. 36:56 EI: Yeah. 36:56 AJ: “Long life to Baathist uh and death to Iran.” That was one of the- because it was Iran− 36:58 EI: It is time to war− 37:00 AJ: Yeah, yeah it was the war. 37:06 EI: What was the time of the war? Do you remember? Because eight-year wars− 37:11 AJ: Eight years. 37:12 EI: Yeah eight years. Uh you remember that wa, I mean how was it? 37:16 AJ: The war affected everybody. 37:18 EI: Yeah. 37:18 AJ: If it is not me, my ̶ one of my family. It is not my family, my neighbor. It affected everybody in different ways. Either one of your family members or cousins or neighbor were dragged to the army and he had to go and next day he- he would be- 37:35 EI: It was compulsory right, the army? 37:37 AJ: It was− 37:37 EI: I mean did you have to go into army? 37:39 AJ: You had no choice. He was uh like uh recruiting people without choice. “This age to this age must come right now.” Without choice. You had to, you had to go. See many people hide, like my father never went to the Iraqi army; always hide from that. He always went to the mountain in a time of recruiting. It was certain times. Not every day. Certain times. “This age to this age must show up at this place or- or else.” And my father, my uncle, a couple of my neighbors always were hiding or going to different places until that process is done for a couple weeks; and then they come back home and I remember some couple times uh Iranian airplanes fighters attacked Duhok City and killed quite a few people and after that we− somebody said “Oh no, that was Saddam’s plane doing that on purpose to blame Iran as well and kill Kurdish people.” So he’s killing two birds with one stone. 37:37 EI: Yeah. 37:37 AJ: Blaming Iran for it and killing Kurdish people− 38:46 EI: Yeah. 38:46 AJ: Everywhere the story’s going− 38:47 EI: Maybe get some support from Kurds− 38:49 AJ: Exactly− 38:49 AJ: Exactly and so it was all politics. I remember all that stuff. Everything is going in my head. 38:54 EI: Were people as I understand people were not like tend to go to army for like two or five days against Iran− 39:02 AJ: No, no, people were going into army because they had no choice, but they were not really fighting against nobody. 39:08 EI: Okay. 39:08 AJ: And Saddam made a like republic his what do you call him his republican army whatever. He had a special force who goes behind the army and check if the army is not fighting they were shooting their own army. You cannot back out. You have that re- re I cannot remember− 39:24 EI: Yeah muhafız or something− 39:26 AJ: Uh republican army whatever. 39:29 EI: Yeah, he is close like bodyguards or something. 39:31 AJ: Yeah, the whole army− Oh and yeah yes, yes, yeah it was all types of things going on in my head now. 39:37 EI: Yeah. 39:37 AJ: It is a lot to say I can talk about it for two months and it is never going to end. 39:43 EI: Yeah exactly uh the general things that you remember actually is important. 39:47 AJ: Yeah these are the general that I really remember even picturing them. 39:54 EI: Yeah [sighs] so the first event that your family directly faced with; It will be like army come to your house or you leave house when it starts the main conflict or something? 40:08 AJ: It started beginning of 1980s when we were in Duhok. 40:11 EI: Yeah. 40:11 AJ: They start knocking the door and looking for my father. How old is he? Is he that army age and after asking for “hey you guys got to pay money do you have a gold like earring? Bring your golds. We going to have to support the Iraqi army. Got to buy weapon against Iran.” Uh these is the main things I remember. It happened many times. 40:34 EI: Yeah. 40:34 AJ: Many times, and then my father, he was a writer he was writing and we had music ̶ Shivan Perwer. 40:41 EI: Yeah. 40:41 AJ: New music and we were listening to it sometime. Once a while we had to hide every cassette we had or every Kurdish book we had underground probably two meter in the ground; under the backyard because uh randomly the intelligence would come check your house if they see that cassette. 41:02 EI: Shivan Perwer? 41:03 41:04 AJ: Shivan Perwer’s cassette or− 41:06 EI: Ah or other Kurdish− 41:07 AJ: Or other Kurdish singers or some- Kurdish books talking about Kurdistan. If they see any sign of Kurdish nationality in your house, you will be executed. 41:14 EI: Even language or cultural things? 41:16 AJ: Oh yeah even, even that- forget it, so− 41:19 EI: Okay. 41:19 AJ: And even though someday they came to our house, we did not have Saddam’s picture hang on our wall. 41:26 EI: Ahh. [mumbles and laughs] 41:26 AJ: My father never had it up. They checked it. They ask my father where is Saddam’s photo? They were, I remember the guy. He was so upset with my father he threatened him to death. If you do not put Saddam’s photo in your house next time, I am going to come check it, your life is over. 41:41 EI: Yeah. 41:41 AJ: Just like that and he brought a picture for us himself. 41:44 EI: Okay. 41:44 AJ: Yeah and [chuckles] that is, that happened I remember that part. 41:50 EI: Yeah, the picture of Saddam that was important from other stories as I remember. 41:58 AJ: Yeah. 41:58 EI: Okay uh so eh how about the ̶ like do you remember, you said uh Peshmerga were in the mountains? 42:09 AJ: Yeah. 42:09 EI: There was a conflict between them and− 42:11 AJ: Always. 42:12 EI: At that time yeah− 42:13 AJ: And different places but always− 42:16 EI: Do you have any eh like- how was the- do you remember anything about the Barzani family or Barzani himself or− 42:21 AJ: It is no ̶ Back then I was not knowing who is Barzani is because I was young. All I remember my cousins who were fighter. I were always proud of them. I have cousins who are older than me who fighting for Kurdistan and I saw that couple time in our farm back when our one hour and a half away from Duhok in the mountain we had a farm −At evening time, they came visit us−Couple time my father used to support him with money- all the time give them money and I remember my cousins and their clothing and they were talking to us. All I remember back then the Kurdish Peshmerga were not concerned about Barzani or Talibani or which party they belonged to. They all worked side by side together like a brother. I remember two of my cousins different- one of them was from Kurdish Democratic Party. One of them from, the other guys from like Socialist Party, the other guy from Kurdish Patriotic Union but they never mentioned that. Back then, everybody worked together. There was no difference. It is not like that they are¬− 43:26 EI: Yeah, I mean all comes from Kurdistan or something. 43:27 AJ: Yeah there was different story like all I remember is Peshmerga are fighting and sacrificing every minute of their life−To defend this land. 43:37 EI: Okay so, when you started to hear about Barzani? 43:39 AJ: After 1991 one as soon as uh Saddam start entering Kuwait. 43:46 EI: Yeah that time− 43:48 AJ: That time, that time I started I got older. 43:52 EI: You were sixteen at that time? 43:53 AJ: Uh 1991 one I was seventeen. 43:56 EI: Seventeen. 43:56 AJ: Yeah, I started heading for my father uh talking about the history Mala Mustafa Barzani and Jalal Talabani, Abdul-Salam, Sheikh Abdul-Salam− All of these before the started in 1940s- They started of the Kurdish Patriotic Union or Democratic Party. Then, I heard about Barzani and after uh the new fly zones got established in 1991 or 1992. 44:25 EI: Yeah do you like- Saddam attacked Kuwait− 44:28 AJ: Yeah. 44:28 EI: And then the uprising starting Kurdish one. What happened there? 44:30 AJ: After he took away then there was a coalition fight against Saddam Hussein all the coalition, they start hitting Saddam’s army. It became really weak. 44:44 EI: Okay. 44:44 AJ: Then Saddam got really weak, got weakened− 44:46 EI: First Gulf War. 44:48 AJ: Yeah, the First Gulf War, Saddam got really, really weakened so the Kurdish uh two main party uh I do not know how they started or who supported them that is all politics uh I do know that much but they started taking advantage of that time. 45:04 EI: They came together? 45:05 AJ: They came together. 45:06 EI: Until the time that they were fighting right uh Barzani, Peshmerga and the Jalal Talabani. 45:12 AJ: They were fighting together against Saddam. Together in 199− 45:16 EI: But before that, they were fighting against each other? 45:19 AJ: No, no, no, no, no not before that, that was ̶ no, no, no not before that. They always worked together until 1994 when they start fighting each other. After 1991 when Saddam got weakened uh the two party came to Kurdistan plus many other parties, small parties and they established the Kurdish Coalition Party together party, Democratic Party, Patriotic Union and communists, socialists, everybody, Islamists; they all worked together and when we ran away to Turkey in 1991 one and came back after three months, we had the new fly zone established by United Nation and America. Then we had our own territory. 46:04 EI: The autonomous? 46:05 AJ: Saddam, autonomous. Saddam could not enter there after that. After that by two or three years, the two parties start fighting against each other over many things. 46:20 EI: Okay, okay we will talk about maybe eh, so in 1991 Saddam attacked on the Kurds like United Nation. 46:30 AJ: The coalition− In general, yeah, all the N.A.T.O.s [North Atlantic Treaty Organization, an international military alliance among nations that was formed in 1949 after World War II] 46:32 EI: All the N.A.T.O.s. Okay they attacked Saddam. 46:35 AJ: Exactly. 46:36 EI: So, the uprising− 46:37 AJ: Started right after that. 46:38 EI: Right after the Kurds− 46:40 AJ: Yes. 46:41 EI: So how- how it started do you remember it? Like− 46:43 AJ: Yeah. 46:43 EI: Like when people said like yeah, we are uprising now it is the time or something− 46:45 AJ: Actually, it is not the people there was- there was the people- the head of the like tribal leader− First, head of the tribal leaders and head of the− 46:58 EI: ?? 46:58 AJ: No no, the tribal leaders in the cities− 47:00 EI: Okay. 47:00 AJ: And the villages and the head of Peshmerga like Barzani and Talibani send a message to these tribal leaders and to the people of cities and Kurdistan in general. We are going to start, we need your help and everybody agreed, it was time. Even some Kurdish people who worked for Saddam Hussein came back and said that “Yes it is time.” I will be with my nation and let us start against Saddam Hussein. He’s weak, we can take control of our nation” and it started. It started in diff- in two- three different days from east to west. 47:36 EI: So how was the uprising? I mean do you participated− 47:39 AJ: Actually, I remember there was, it first started in my city at four o’clock in the morning. First bullet got shot from some uhm Kurdish people who were fighter already. They were, they knew how to fight. They were older. They surrounded the intelligence building of Duhok City. 48:02 EI: Okay. 48:02 AJ: And they start attacking it. And there was couple others, Baathist party officers also got surrounded by many Kurdish groups- young people starting from age fifteen to age ninety. 48:17 EI: Okay. 48:17 AJ: And they all got together and it was kind of chaotic, it was chaos. But it worked and everybody worked together and they start arresting and kicking every Baathist out of the area. And there are some Baathist who ran away, some of them got killed, some of them surrounded and stayed with Kurdish people. 48:36 EI: Okay what do you mean by stayed? 48:38 AJ: They stayed among Kurdish uh they were arrested. 48:41 EI: Okay. 48:41 AJ: Then after that they said we do not want to go back to Saddam, we want to stay here if you guys allow us. And the Kurdish community did allow them uh we- they forgive them because they have not done any damage to anybody, they were just small Baathist people. 48:57 EI: Okay. 48:57 AJ: Not like criminal− 48:58 EI: Okay yeah. 48:58 AJ: Like intelligence so they started stayed among us and become part of our life because they were Kurdish originally anyway. 49:06 EI: Ah okay, okay yeah so uh Kuwait War ended and then Saddam came back eh so Saddam’s, what did he said like you upraised and now I am going to attack your− 49:18 AJ: Uprising yeah. 49:18 EI: Eh so Saddam’s party− 49:19 AJ: He tried, he tried to attack us uh but it did not work because the coalition got together against especially America and starts air supporting the Kurdish people. It was an agreement between Masoud Barzani, Talibani, and Unite-coalition. The N.A.T.O. [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] countries and America, “Hey we are in control of this territory, we need uh protection.” So they draw the line. 49:43 EI: Ah yeah in 1998, actually− 49:45 AJ: In 1991 or 1992, they draw the line. 49:48 EI: Yeah and in 1980, the Halabja occurred. 49:50 AJ: Yeah, the 1988, that was Halabja time, that was when Saddam− 49:54 EI: Do you remember anything about? 49:56 AJ: When he ended the war with Iran. He started, I do not know he had too much power or what. He started another war. He wanted in his mind I think I was hearing from others. He wanted to get rid of all Kurdish nation. How I do not know nobody can get rid of an entire nation. Yeah. That was his idea so what happened he start attacking Halabja first with the chemical biological weapon. Whatever weapon he used I do not have details, much details all I know I remember not only Halabja got affected. First was Halabja many people died in that city about five thousand of them right in that same city. Then, it spread around. It was not only one place, it was many places got attacked. 50:47 EI: So, watching TV or heard− 50:48 AJ: Heard. 50:49 EI: −Or how was it? 50:50 AJ: I, we ̶ TV and the radio we had always had a radio uh Kurdish radio station being transferred to us from the mountain or from Syria or from Turkey so we knew all that information and uh like Saddam doing this and ever. It was kind of like a ghost town. All of a sudden; all of Kurdistan was like a ghost town. Everybody’s quiet and confused and do not know what to do anymore. Then people start running away. Many Kurdish people start running away to the mountain, to the border of Iran and border of Turkey to stay away from these chemical and biological attack. And in fact, I do not know how many thousands of them entered Iran and Turkey and Diyarbakır and Mardin but there was a refugee camp. 51:42 EI: Oh yeah. 51:42 AJ: Yeah for a very long time for many years. So that is, that is all I remember about that. 51:47 EI: Yeah so uh after uprising pee like Saddam came back and uh people start to go to the camps or mountains eh in 1991. Do you know about it? 52:01 AJ: In 1991 when Saddam after the uprising− Started, Saddam try to come back here. He brought all his forces back to Kurdistan border and start attacking Kurdistan. All Kurdish people about three million of them walk back to the border of Turkey and Iran. In fact, they enter− 52:21 EI: Did you? 52:22 AJ: Ah yeah, I was one of them. I remember I walked nine days from- we drove from Duhok City to Deanna. Deanna one of the border close to Iran uh we did not go to Turkey. We went to Iran because we have cars, it was easier. We heard you cannot take your car to Turkey and we had to walk. So, we decided we have a lot of elderly people with us. We cannot carry them so us and ten of my eh uncles and cousins we all had cars so we decided to drive to Iran. We got to Deanna. That is the town called Deanna close to the border, then was lined up. It was only two-hour drive from Deanna to Iran. We stayed in that road nine days because it was car bumper to bumper and Iran was accepting the Kurdish people very slowly. Maybe one hundred cars per day, one hundred fifty cars or family per day. After the nine days I walked near my cousins, the younger generation could walk. The elderly stayed in car. We entered Iran and it was easier. Iran did not really harass us or did anything. Okay go, go to any city you can find a place. There are camps or refugee camps or if you have money you can rent uh a room like this. We did, we did rent a room like this. Seventeen of us were in a same room for two months until we decided uh we were going back to Kurdistan because the coalition in America start kicking Saddam back. 53:58 EI: Yeah, some families stay in the mountains like seven months or something− 54:00 AJ: Oh yeah, oh yes, yes especially in the mountain between Turkey and Kurdistan. 54:04 EI: How was life in Iran? 54:06 AJ: In general, for us, it was not bad because when you have money you could buy anything. Eat, only worried about food back then. Nothing else. 54:14 EI: Yeah exactly. 54:14 AJ: Just food because we are running away. What do we need just food? And health-wise we were good, food-wise we were good, at the camp we are okay uh and we had cousins who were living in Iran. Yeah, we had cousins to help us out, what to do that was kind of easier for us. 54:30 EI: So, is there a Kurdish city that you stayed in in Iran? 54:35 AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah there is many Kurdish cities in Iran we, we stayed in Naqadeh. 54:37 EI: Naqadeh. 54:38 AJ: Naqadeh yeah. 54:40 EI: Yeah and uh I think generally the camps in Turkey even there was not a camp that they stayed in the mountains. 54:49 AJ: Yeah it was just a mountain. They called it camp but− It is not a really camp back then. 54:53 EI: But for Iran treated families or you well? 54:56 AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah actually it was because I had ̶ we separate into two sections like take ten family went to Turkey, ten families went to Iran. When we came back afterward we sit down together and we talked about it. Our condition in generally in Iran was much easier than their condition. Especially the rain and snow, the weather was not helpful in Turkish border. It was kind of easier in Iran border; much easier. 55:25 EI: And then after two months, you all family you turned back? 55:29 AJ: We turned back, we came back to our cities right away. 55:31 EI: How was life after that? 55:33 AJ: First, first uh six months− 55:36 EI: Was there more fear? [laughs] 55:37 AJ: No, beginning of more fear because there was uncertainty. There was uncertainty. We did not know where we are going to end up. Is Saddam coming back? Is the Kurdish coming back? Is America going to protect us? Everything was if, if what is going to happen and how it is going to happen. Nobody knew the future. Then after six months, I remember the especially British we saw a lot of British army and American army. The coalition in general. And the, and the street of Kurdistan trying to push Saddam’s back and back and back to the no-fly zone line thirty-five or thirty-six. I do not know which one back then. 56:16 EI: Out of Duhok City− 56:17 AJ: Out of Duhok City, yeah out of Duhok City, out of Sulaymaniyah City, out of Kurdistan territory in general except Kirkuk. Because yeah know Kirkuk was a whole different story. 56:26 EI: I see. 56:26 AJ: Very complicated. So, after they kicked them all out and we have the no-fly zone area and Saddam people could not come to Kurdistan, we felt like we are in heaven. We seriously felt like we are in heaven. Regardless of the living condition, there was no power, not much food, people struggling to find food and stuff because we- it is like kind of new, new generation coming and running this country three or four million people who has no experience how to run themselves without a government without resources, very, very few resources and uh I was kind of chaotic but really happy. Everybody was happy. There was no more fear. The fear was gone so nobody cared about the, the living condition. 57:16 EI: Luxury life. [laughs] 57:16 AJ: If you have a house luxury life or power. Who cares, there is no more Saddam. We are happy. 57:22 EI: At least your life is guaranteed? 57:23 AJ: Exactly, exactly, exactly then the other political party start uh getting more in control, trying to organize uh in general that administrative part of the government and− 57:39 EI: Kurdish parties, right? 57:39 AJ: The Kurdish parties yeah. And they worked pretty hard until 1994 or (19)95 uh after (19)94 or (19)95 and then the two main party start fighting each other. Who is going to be in control here? Who is going to be in control there? They did that mistake. Actually, they were pushed by other people and other countries too. 58:02 EI: Iran and Turkey. 58:03 AJ: Uh in general. In general, whoever wanted to destroy the area again was behind that. And they were unexperienced parties anyway to run the country. Uh after that war that war was kind of was a disaster. It did not last for a long time. 58:21 EI: Called as brakuzhi right? 58:22 AJ: Exactly yeah. 58:23 EI: Killing your brother? 58:24 AJ: Exactly and it lasted for a while, about five thousand people died for no reason. Then they decided okay what we are doing. What really are we are doing here? After that it got much better. They still- they still after they did not− 58:39 EI: Power struggle? 58:40 AJ: They, they did not, they did not really work together very well but they never fought again. 58:48 EI: I mean political struggle for, ugh, yeah. 58:51 AJ: Exactly yeah it started much better. 58:53 EI: Okay. 58:53 AJ: Yeah, start much better much more organized because they have more resources as well. They had more money in hand. They know how to do it. 59:01 EI: Okay for that time, do you remember anything about the other uh Kurdish regions or Kurdish parties from other countries from Turkey, from Iran, from Syria you remember? 59:10 AJ: Yeah because- because Kurdistan uh Iraqi Kurdistan was the safest place for Kurdish people. Nobody could attack any of the political party. I remember the Kurdish uh, uh Kurdish worker, the PKK [Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê; English: The Kurdistan Workers' Party] start coming to our, to our Kurdistan and the Kurdish party from uh Iran start coming to our Kurdistan. As a small group, they just wanted to find a place of living and some Kurdish parties from Syria’s part then they start causing problems too. Because they- they looked for some autonomous- within us not within their party and that ended up in the wrong way they start fighting again anyway. They start fighting against the Democratic party, the Kurdish Patriotic Union, and then they decided okay you know fighting again they still our brother, they did a mistake, let us teach them what we got and how they get, let us work together and they still working together somehow− Up until these days. 1:00:15 EI: Yeah so after 1994, (19)95 it was− 1:00:18 AJ: (19)96 it stopped. 1:00:21 EI: Relatively good, uh (19)96? 1:00:23 AJ: (19)90, eh let us say (19)98, the whole thing stopped. There was no more war− Between any parties as, as, as I remember there was no more. 1:00:34 EI: And it was relatively stable life. 1:00:35 AJ: Very stable like uh it got really stable in 1998 to 2003. I was not there but I used to go back and forth for visits every now and then. I used to call my family even like every other week. I used to call them and ask them and we had our Kurdish news coming over the dish satellite. It was much more stabilized because it was open border for commercial stuff. For uh like general whatever commercial you want to get, you want to be a business man, you want to buy this, you want to go to this country, you want to get that. 1:01:04 EI: So, you started to have that chance, right? 1:01:06 AJ: Yes, yeah everybody. 1:01:08 EI: Did you go to school at that time? College or? 1:01:10 AJ: I ̶ in 1994, I was going to college in Erbil for business management. 1:01:14 EI: Okay. 1:01:14 AJ: Yeah. 1:01:15 EI: But there was a university in− 1:01:16 AJ: Oh yeah, yeah there was always Erbil University and Sulaymaniyah University are really old. 1:01:21 EI: Yeah, yeah they are. 1:01:22 AJ: Yeah really old. 1:01:23 EI: What was the education was it in Kurdish or? 1:01:26 AJ: It was in Arabic. 1:01:27 EI: Arabic. 1:01:27 AJ: Yeah it was Arabic. Even then it was Arabic. It did not change to Kurdish until very close, these last five, six years. 1:01:33 EI: Okay, okay maybe the system, the system was same but the owner of the system was different or the Kurds leading for example. How was it? 1:01:41 AJ: The system, the system, the ̶ like the same education but different mentality. The teacher was more open-minded and Kurdish time− When Kurdish controlled the area. 1:01:50 EI: I mean they were all Kurdish or? 1:01:52 AJ: They were mostly Kurdish but they were Arab too. There were Kurdish and there were− 1:01:54 EI: From the Baath party or something? 1:01:57 AJ: No, no, no. 1:01:58 EI: No Baath party? 1:01:59 AJ: No Baath party. Done. After 1991 and the no-fly zone area yeah no Bath, no Saddam at all. 1:02:05 EI: Autonomy. 1:02:06 AJ: Autonomy. Absolute autonomy. 1:02:08 EI: Okay yeah. 1:02:08 AJ: Protected by the coalition and America. 1:02:11 EI: Okay, okay I got it now ̶ You got your education for two years in Erbil? 1:02:16 AJ: Yeah, I went to the third year, I wanted to go to uh finish up but I was working at that time for one of the uh non-government organization to rebuild Kurdistan. It was supported by United State. And I stopped college for one year because I would not pay for the- I could not do it. I was poor back then and uh when I worked for that organization uh I worked only three or four months. Saddam start threatening all these people who work for United State directly or indirectly. I will attack them again. Although he was behind the line, he was not in control of Kurdistan, but America decided to pull all of us out of there so I was− 1:03:02 EI: Okay yeah so because you were working for the NGO. 1:03:05 AJ: Yes. 1:03:05 EI: Okay. 1:03:06 AJ: Yes. 1:03:07 EI: And what was the year? 19− 1:03:08 AJ: 1996. 1:03:10 EI: 1996. 1:03:11 AJ: Yeah 2006 when we pulled out. Yeah in 1994 I was going to school, in 1995 I was going to school, between (19)95 and (19)96, I started working for the NGOs. 1:03:20 EI: Yeah and then you came to US. 1:03:23 AJ: Yes. 1:03:23 EI: Okay we should stop here for a breath. 1:03:24 AJ: [laughs] Okay. 1:03:25 EI: Thank you so much. 1:03:27 AJ: You are welcome. 1:03:29 EI: And uh− 1:03:29 AJ: Avras. 1:03:30 EI: I think for now we start remember something. [laughs] 1:03:35 AT: Now I am a little boy [laughs] yeah. 1:03:39 EI: When did you start school? 1:03:41 AT: Um 1:03:41 EI: In (19)95 or (19)94? 1:03:43 AT: I do not think I would remember the year. Yeah, I would say (19)94 or (19)95. 1:03:49 EI: Hmm where? Duhok? 1:03:51 AT: Duhok yeah. 1:03:52 EI: Do you remember anything at that time? 1:03:55 AT: I do like my class school was not so much um I remember Arabic class, a Quran class um but a Math class I think um my childhood not so much not so ̶ I, I went back after ten years. I could go back to the school and see what my school looked like because I did not really remember anything. 1:04:19 EI: Hmm for primary school, you do not remember it? [laughs] 1:04:21 AT: No, school throughout my whole childhood honestly when I came over here and I went back I did not remember that much. 1:04:27 EI: You do not remember anything about Kurdistan? 1:04:29 AT: I, I knew my ̶ I knew my relatives and where I used to live and ̶ but− 1:04:32 EI: I mean any difficulties or any funny things or? 1:04:37 AT: Well it was, it was a piece of cake honestly, I remember it was just waking up just like over here waking up in the morning, get dressed, go to school, go to your school, come back from school, grab something to eat, or do homework, and then go outside and play either soccer or just play tag with friends. None of that pal, well like he said little kids, Kurds do not tell us about politics, we do not watch the news, we do not deal with that we just, just living as a little kid you know. 1:05:01 EI: Yeah as he said like um it was kind of like steady time for you in 1995. So, you come to United States after that? 1:05:09 AT: After (19)90 yeah (199)6. 1:05:12 AJ: (1999)6. 1:05:14 EI: Yeah how, how ̶ 1:05:16 AT: Yeah end of (19)96. 1:05:18 EI: Your family came here? Your dad? 1:05:21 AT: My whole family yeah, my, my parents and my siblings. 1:05:23 AJ: His dad worked for an NGO as same as well. 1:05:25 EI: Ahh okay yeah so for the same reason. So most of the Kurds who came here, they were ah working for NGOs or that is why? 1:05:36 AJ: And people who came here in 1997− 1:05:38 EI: Okay. 1:05:39 AJ: −Only− 1:05:40 EI: Okay. 1:05:41 AJ: Majority of them worked for NGOs. Either one of the family member worked or maybe couple of them, then they brought the whole family. 1:05:48 EI: Okay. 1:05:48 AJ: I did not bring anybody but his father brought everybody in his family. 1:05:51 EI: But you could. 1:05:52 AJ: I could but my parents refused to come so I did not ̶ I, I came by myself. 1:05:56 EI: Yes okay. 1:06:00 AT: Yeah, my, my uncles and a lot of cousins, they had the same opportunity but they, they are like no we will stay here because of pride you know. They are like, we are not leaving. This is Kurdistan, this is our homeland struggle depending on how bad effort is, we are staying here. And my dad- my dad is like no like when, what is they because we watch TV a lot oh my god America is perfect you know [laughter] land of opportunity so my dad is like my dad’s like no I will go over there and see how that is so we just ̶ Packed up and− Because he, he told us that his dad was like that whatever your heart desires I am like I want you to go too and his dad was like if you want to go then go ahead and like take your family and go okay. 1:06:36 EI: So, you came here kak [Mr] Avras right? 1:06:43 AT: Yes. 1:06:44 EI: Uh and uh for a camp for three months? 1:06:46 AT: Yeah. 1:06:46 EI: Were you in the same group or? 1:06:48 AJ: They were in a different camp than I was. 1:06:52 EI: Okay where was it? 1:06:53 AJ: Guam, same Guam. 1:06:54 AT: Same Guam. 1:06:55 EI: Same Guam? 1:06:56 AJ: Same island, same island but two different camps. 1:06:58 EI: Ah okay so how was life there? 1:07:00 AT: Guam? It was perfect out [laughter] beautiful like it was pretty much like Hawaii waking up, green grass, blue skies. 1:07:09 AJ: Beautiful, it was beautiful. 1:07:11 AT: Nice house yeah. 1:07:13 EI: They were swimming? [laughs] 1:07:15 AT: We did not go swimming, no, but they had army soldiers working around the clock around us but then they were like friendly too they would just come and greet you like they could not speak English or anything but you could tell they are friendly. 1:07:25 EI: Okay yeah so which come for you especially it should be completely different for you Armanj. 1:07:30 AJ: Yeah when I came there− 1:07:32 EI: For a, for a soldier the treatment− 1:07:36 AJ: Oh yes, yes [laughter] we, I ̶ Because I worked for the NGOs myself and I knew English already ̶ I, I knew how American soldiers are. When I first came to Guam, I, yeah, I was hired directly as a, a interpreter for the Kurdish people for the processing− And medical problems and their treatment, the soldiers’ treatment to Kurdish people everybody was shocked. My gosh look at these soldiers, look at these police, they treat us like we are brothers. And everybody thinking soldier or police as a terrible soldier because of Saddam’s police and− That is all we knew. Anybody is police or army is a terrible person. 1:08:19 EI: Did you ever question like is Saddam Muslim and look at his police or soldiers but Americans are not in general and even you do not feel it, I mean you, did you ever question it or your family or something? 1:08:31 AJ: I mean not us but our family we are talking about it once in a while. And they said look at this person. He claimed to be a Muslim and not every Muslim are Muslim. There are Muslims who are terrible. He claimed to be a Muslim and a lot of people worked for him claimed to be a Muslim but in fact they had no faith in any god. No Allah or any type of religion at all. And people or other army from coalitions in general or from Britain or America, they were so much nicer and so much more, they had so much more mercy on people, you would feel these people should be Muslim, not Saddam. [laughter] You would feel if we talk about the behavior of uh our prophet in general like not only our prophet− Like Jesus, Moses, all of them. The behavior of all these religious prophets and messengers, we see them in this country and these soldiers. We do not see them in our own country and our own army at all. We did talk about it many times and we still talk about it. [laughs] We still do. 1:09:43 AT: I remember they were, they used to walk around with candy in their pockets and every time a little kid gets home, he takes a candy out and gives it to him. 1:09:45 EI: Give you candy? 1:09:48 AJ: Oh yeah. 1:09:49 EI: Yeah okay so eh you start school, here right? 1:09:57 AT: I did. 1:09:58 EI: How was it? Eh. 1:09:59 AT: It was− 1:09:59 EI: Terrible I think for the beginning. 1:10:01 AT: It was, no it was nice. We went to Maryland first um and then they have an Iraqi kid− He, he, he pretty much just helped us out. He was in high school but he came to middle school and then elementary school to help my family out. Took us to classes and walked us and then it was me, it was three of us, me and my sister and my other sister so they establi ̶ They gave us in middle one teacher just to teach us alphabet you know they did not put us directly into classes like here ̶ 1:10:24 EI: Oh okay. 1:10:25 AT: Go to class. 1:10:27 EI: First they teach language. 1:10:29 AT: Yeah, they, they had that in Guam as well. They had middle for- it is for little kids but then it went to hell in a couple of months. You cannot learn anything. When we came to Maryland they gave us a teacher. Our personal teacher who helped us with just English, alphabet, you know readings first of all before they put us into classes. After that we got like we are, we are little kids so like we, we um, we learned really quick so after that we went fourth grade. I started in fourth grade and we started the same guy helped us out with everything and it was good. It was a good transition I guess. I mean it was, it was hard to learn in English honestly but, and you used to walk around kids speaking a different language like− [laughs] 1:11:15 EI: Understand nothing yeah it should be difficult that part. 1:11:18 AT: Yeah. 1:11:18 EI: You can tell yourself what do you think to− 1:11:19 AT: When I was a little kid, you- you absorb more, you learn more. 1:11:24 EI: Yeah of course, of course. 1:11:26 AT: So, at that age ̶ 1:11:27 EI: Exactly. 1:11:28 AT: They came at a good time. 1:11:29 AJ: And I think it was a big, big thing for them too because I did not go to school here in the beginning like elementary or middle or high school. Elementary school or high school or middle back then was cold room, no central air− Broken windows. 1:11:46 EI: Physical conditions yeah. 1:11:47 AJ: Physical conditions terrible. When they came here, and I went for translation purposes− 1:11:51 EI: In Duhok, right? 1:11:52 AJ: In Iraq in general. Not just Duhok, in Iraq in general; and the way the teacher treated you sometimes like were allowed to slap you or stuff like that. Here they come like carpet in the room and central air and you see all this techno ̶ technology like smart boards and stuff. They give you food at school. There was no food at school back in Iraq. No such as thing as food at school so all the kids were so in love with this society. Were unbelievable. Even the parents. Many parents not wanted to go back to Kurdistan because it is stable. They can go but they are not going to keep their kids here and to get better and better education and better chances in life because the opportunity you are getting in United States, you cannot get it anywhere else. We learned that. 1:12:43 EI: Okay yeah for the high school or how was it? 1:12:46 AT: It was like, there was because we, we stayed in Maryland half a year and his father in law and my father are best friends and they, his father in law called my dad and he is like yeah come to New York. There is more Kurds here, there is better opportunities. It is a bigger city, bigger Kurdish community. And my dad’s like alright so we just packed up everything we got and just moved up to New York and as he said− 1:13:14 EI: Which part? Binghamton? 1:13:15 AT: In Binghamton yeah. And we came up here and there were a lot of Kurds. I do not know how many Kurds at first back in 2000 but there, there was a good amount. 1:13:20 AJ: About forty families. 1:13:22 AT: So, going in the lunch room there were other Kurdish kids. [laughs] You know like there were other and we like, we did not like going from this village to that village but we were just friends, get to know each other, talk, go to lunch, or play a sport and back then, there were like two or three parts of Binghamton you lived. There was either Carlisle or Saratoga. There is two groups and we pretty much all went to the same middle school, all the same high school and like together for everything like basketball− Or soccer. 1:13:50 EI: I mean there is like a community between Kurds here as I see. 1:13:54 AT: Yup. 1:13:54 EI: So how this work? I mean how do you establish it or continue? 1:13:57 AJ: I can put it in one sentence for you. The best Kurdish community on Earth is Binghamton Kurdish community [laughs] I believe it. The, the ̶ I do not know how to put it together but the Kurdish environment in Binghamton area and Broome County, everybody feels like the next house is his brother. And there is no sensitivity whatsoever. There is always difference in opinions, that is normal but the ̶ when there is a death in the family or a problem or a, or a happiness in the family, all Kurdish people in the community are there for them to do anything. It is unbelievable. [chuckles] It is unbelievable. 1:14:41 EI: Yeah how you establish it? I mean what were you doing to protect it or? 1:14:45 AJ: Uh first of all when I first came here. Me, my brother in law who is deceased actually right now, uh Karwan’s older brother. Brother, Karwan is my brother in law. So, his older brother, me, and his brother Zeke. I do not know if you met Zeke or not. 1:15:01 EI: I think so. He is Zeke Taha. 1:15:03 AJ: Yeah Zeke Taha. So were, were a bunch of uh like twenty, twenty-two years old ̶ Uh kids here. We started uh first we started for every event like Newroz. We start having a big party for Newroz inviting everybody. Pay only ten-dollar, twenty dollar per family. We were getting a singer from somewhere, Europe or somewhere and have the whole group together to memorizing these Kurdish events. There was Eid everybody was going to visit each other. Every Eid we still do it. Every first Sunday would visit every forty-five or fifty families in couple days just to strengthen their relationship and the other way sometime uh there is couple other events like they ̶ these guys uh were− 1:15:51 AT: It is newly established- the A.K.C. [American Kurdish Council]. 1:15:52 AJ: Yeah, the A.K.C. after they started ̶ 1:15:53 EI: A.K.C. is− 1:15:53 AJ: American Kurdish Council. 1:15:54 EI: Okay yeah. 1:15:54 AJ: Uh they started this, it is new but they established it. 1:15:59 EI: It was established, when was it established? 1:16:00 AT: 2010. 1:16:01 EI: 2010 yeah. 1:16:03 AJ: Uh they start like we had a ̶ what was events we had at Cole Park? 1:16:07 AT: The picnic? 1:16:08 AJ: We had a picnic, invited every Kurdish family to our picnic. Everybody brings their own food. Let us eat together, dance together, play together, do so, do soccer together. It was unbelievable, all the kids started to know each other and especially, especially when there is a death or somebody is sick, real sick and in this Kurdish community everybody jumps in to help each other. And it is getting and better every day. Everyday– 1:16:34 EI: So, you are still coming together? 1:16:37 AJ: Oh yes 1:16:38 EI: Eating yeah okay. 1:16:39 AJ: Absolutely. 1:16:40 EI: You know each other I mean if there is something wrong in one home you heard about it and ̶ 1:16:43 AJ: The next day we all know. 1:16:44 EI: Yeah okay yeah. 1:16:45 AJ: Next day we all know. And it is been like that forever. 1:16:48 EI: Okay, okay. 1:16:52 AT: So, like as you could tell it was easy transition on us like you have other Kurds. Other Kurds’ kids were around you but I mean maybe if we stayed in Maryland it’d be a different experience you know? We would be just one Kurdish family grown up together, just sisters and brother but um luckily, we came up here. It was easier for all of us, for me, my sister, and everybody. 1:17:14 EI: Maybe you. Yeah, I mean eh this um, like will make America more easy for you living here. 1:17:21 AT: Yeah. 1:17:22 AJ: A lot easier. 1:17:23 EI: Yeah so uh are you going to Kurdistan sum ̶ during the summer or? 1:17:28 AJ: I did visit Kurdistan mm uh I was there about a month ago. I went for twenty days and came back. 1:17:35 EI: And before? 1:17:36 AJ: Before I went when my father passed away in 2011. 1:17:39 EI: 2011. 1:17:40 AJ: Yeah. 1:17:42 EI: So, after 1997, right? 1:17:45 AJ: Yes. 1:17:46 EI: You went like around ten years later? 1:17:50 AJ: Oh no, no first time, first time I went to Kurdistan it was 2001. 1:17:54 EI: 2001? 1:17:55 AJ: Yeah. 1:17:56 EI: Okay. 1:17:56 AJ: So, it was about five years− 1:17:58 EI: Okay. 1:17:58 AJ: After I came to this country. 1:17:59 EI: Okay. 1:17:59 AJ: I got married here− 1:18:01 EI: Okay. 1:18:01 AJ: And I took my wife and I went to visit Kurdistan because my younger brother passed. Got, got a car accident− And passed away yeah, I had to go back, back then. Then in 2004 my brother in law passed away. We had to take my in-laws and we went back to Kurdistan again. 2005, I took my family there and went back again. Just for like a month. Each time for a month. 1:18:28 EI: So, eh you said you are back to Kurdistan after like 1997. Five years. 1:18:34 AJ: Yeah. 1:18:35 EI: And then in 2001. What were the differences? 1:18:40 AJ: Huge difference− 1:18:41 EI: From− 1:18:41 AJ: From (19)97 to 2001, it was serious different and uh− 1:18:48 EI: What was the main difference I mean− 1:18:50 AJ: Infrastructure. The, the government itself. I saw a sign, a sign of a developed government uh ̶ 1:18:59 EI: Who was in power in this time? 1:19:00 AJ: Business-wise, the, the Democratic Party and um patriotic union. 1:19:07 EI: Yeah. 1:19:07 AJ: Barzani and Talibani. They were both in power forever. 1:19:09 EI: Okay Saddam was− 1:19:10 AJ: Duhok City, no, no Saddam. 1:19:12 EI: Saddam. 1:19:13 AJ: No, no Saddam was still alive in Baghdad. 1:19:15 EI: Yeah okay, yeah, I mean− 1:19:16 AJ: 2001. 1:19:17 EI: He was still in power. 1:19:18 AJ: Yeah, he was still in power, yes, yes but uh we did not go to Iraq. We never went to Iraq. Always to Kurdistan through Turkey or directly to Kurdistan. We never went to Iraq. Yeah so, I always going through Turkey from Istanbul. 1:19:30 EI: Istanbul? 1:19:31 AJ: Or to Diyarbakır to Duhok City. 1:19:33 EI: How was the Turkey when you go? Was there any problem? 1:19:37 AJ: Oh, there was always problem in the border. Not when you fly. When you go to Istanbul, and Istanbul to Diyarbakır not a problem. Then you drive you get a cab or taxi from Diyarbakır to the border. 1:19:47 EI: Erbil? 1:19:48 AJ: Then, no, no the border of Zakho? 1:19:50 EI: Oh, okay, okay. 1:19:51 AJ: The border of Kurdistan. The Kurd- the Turkish Iraqi border, Zakho area uh we use- we used to drive from Diyarbakır to the Zakho, then Zakho to Duhok. But that point the Silopi. They called it Silopi? Border going. Yeah, yeah that Turkish part of it was always, always uh kind of harassing us like one person working and there is ten families in line for the stamp- for ̶ to, to stamp your passport−To exit Turkey to Kurdistan. 1:20:26 EI: So bureaucratic uh part was the− 1:20:30 AJ: Bureaucratic part exactly then it was like hey− 1:20:32 EI: Bad treat, bad treatment or something? 1:20:33 AJ: No, no, no bad treatment. 1:20:34 EI: Okay, okay. 1:20:35 AJ: Just keeping people, keeping people standing there for hours for no reason. He, the guy will close his window. “I am hungry” and he will go eat for two hours. [laughs] He was an officer. You cannot tell an officer what to do. And he was going to go for two hours. 1:20:51 EI: I mean it is the check so common Turkey, not about that part uh− 1:20:56 AJ: That, that is− 1:20:57 EI: I can say even it is same in Ankara in some cases. [laughs] 1:21:00 AJ: Yeah, when we go to the officers in Turkey in general, they treat you in a hard way. That is any soldier in Middle East is the same way. You cannot change it, you cannot change it. That is the way it is. You can go to uh Amman, you go to Syria, it is even worse. Back then, when Assad was in power and Saddam was in power, if you had, because I had heard about people. You go to Kurdistan to Syria, the soldiers in Syria in part, right at the check point they will distract you, they will harass you, they will make your life hell. Before you pass through. It was just the mentality of soldiers in Middle East. Bottom line. 1:21:41 EI: Okay, okay yeah in 2001 you said there were lots like of developments. 1:21:46 AJ: Yes. 1:21:46 EI: More stable? 1:21:47 AJ: More stable and what I liked about it, more freedom. People could people can open a big construction company. If you had money, you will go to Turkey and partnership with one of the Turkish companies and bring all of the tools and rebuild whatever they want. And was nice bedding, nice system, but there was still corruption. That is all. It was corruption. The government in general but people were more educated, more open-minded because people could travel and the longer distance to Europe to China to Qatar to Istanbul every day and come back. They got more open-minded, they learned more, and they got educated a lot more. That was the big difference. 1:22:30 EI: So next time was 2004. 1:22:33 AJ: 2004, I did not see much, but two the- because it was a funeral. But 2005 in the summer, spring time I went for two months. Was even better. 1:22:43 EI: Because the Kurds got their autonomy officially? 1:22:46 AJ: Offi− 1:22:46 1:22:47 EI: In 2002? 1:22:48 AJ: Exactly. 1:22:49 EI: Yeah. 1:22:49 AJ: In 2003 actually. 1:22:52 EI: 2003? 1:22:54 AJ: Officially after Saddam’s regime was gone. It was completely autonomous, Kurdish autonomous and they had more power, more money, and more interaction with the world. Like six hundred Turkish construction company was in Kurdistan back then. Two hundred European construction company was in Kurdistan, was unbelievable. That was a big the ̶ a big education for Kurdish people on how to deal with a life and how to build their infrastructure. But still there was corruption again. [chuckles] Corruption did not end. It is getting worse 1:23:28 EI: In 2005? 1:23:29 AJ: Five yeah. 1:23:20 EI: So. 1:23:30 AJ: In Iraq in general. 1:23:31 EI: What was Iraq was like, how did you feel like you left the country ten years ago now you back in 2005 so how, what do you remember, I mean what did you tell yourself like− 1:23:44 AJ: First thing I tell myself, I hope they are going to stay in the same path and develop themselves without fighting− Without killing each other anymore and learn from their mistakes before they collapse. That was, that was always I thought about that. 1:23:31 EI: No. I mean not as, as a citizen or as a person. 1:23:33 AJ: Yeah. 1:23:33 EI: How was your feeling? I mean did you feel− 1:24:10 AJ: I feel really happy though. 1:24:12 EI: When you said like my flag or said my country or− 1:24:14 AJ: Oh yeah. The feeling was a lot different because like I said I was going to Kurdistan with all pride and as soon as you enter Kurdistan, you see the Kurdish army, Kurdish flag uh everything and writing on Kurdish, all the paperwork, all the documentation in Kurdish. You feel really good about it and they were well organized. 1:24:34 EI: Yeah, I mean will− 1:24:34 AJ: Well organized. 1:24:35 EI: How was the treatment of the Kurdish? 1:24:37 AJ: Perfect. 1:24:37 EI: Soldier? 1:24:38 AJ: Very good. 1:24:39 EI: Or the Kurdish bureaucracy towards you? 1:24:41 AJ: The ̶ excellent ̶ actually as soon as I enter the country, they treat you really nice with a big smile. With all respect and they ask you nice questions just like an, an, an European or American uh checkpoint. They treat you with really nice mannerism. 1:24:59 EI: I mean if something was wrong could you eh− 1:25:02 AJ: If there was something wrong ̶ 1:25:03 EI: Could you question them or what are you doing? 1:25:05 AJ: Oh yeah yes– 1:25:05 EI: Yeah. 1:25:06 AJ: Yes, yes, yes I could because one day they the bag. 1:25:09 EI: Was there any fear? 1:25:10 AJ: I had no fear, personally me, I had no fear of them at all. Because on the border an officer told me, “What is in this bag?” I said, “Clothing, what else going to be in the bag. Are you joking?” I was like I was kind of yelling at him. Just, just I felt, I felt I could do that because he is Kurdish just like me. [laughs] He said uh, he said told me with a smile, “I- I am just doing my job. Please do not be angry.” Just like that. I was like, “I am sorry I am not being angry. I am just trying to joke here.” [laughs] You can open it and I was really happy he did not get upset. He treated me with a lot of respect and every time I go back, it is better and better. I ̶ last time I landed in Erbil airport, the way I saw Erbil airport, there is no difference between Erbil and Frankfurt or Istanbul airport. That much organized excellent uh treatment, it is unbelievable. If there is an issue, they try to fix or treat your issue right away with all respect. No harassment, no headache. I was really happy. Uh they are leaving. They are really learning very fast. 1:26:16 EI: Yeah and how the general conditions? People- I mean when you ask the ̶ I mean you are asking them- 1:26:23 AJ: Oh yeah. 1:26:23 EI: Your family or your relatives. I mean how is the government or how is the democracy or how is, is it work or uh how is the independence? I mean how is the autonomy? 1:26:35 AJ: Yeah okay. 1:26:35 EI: Can you enjoy it or? 1:26:37 AJ: In general, I have ̶ I saw some part of my family like they went from here to here− And some of them start from zero to everything so there was a cycle. Some people lost their jobs, some people gained jobs but in general when I ask them why, why did you lose everything and why did you have now, now you were up here, what happened? It is just an opportunity I knew. 1:27:01 EI: Free market or? 1:27:02 AJ: Exactly, it is a free market. 1:27:05 EI: But is it like their− 1:27:06 AJ: But you have to analyze it. Which part and when you need to do what− 1:27:10 EI: I mean is it because one of them is close to government or the other is not? 1:27:15 AJ: No, no, no– 1:27:16 EI: No, okay. 1:27:17 AJ: They are both close family to me. Uh they have equal relationship with the government. But because of the free market and their uneducated guess, drop one of them up, one of them down. But when I ask them about the government, it says the government is not up to the speed when it comes to processing paperwork. There is still mistakes but- but it is better than before because you can go to the office and ask them what happened and why did not you work on this case? Before you could not do that. Now you could ask them, hey where’s my case and why did not you work on my case? People going to follow up. It is still not up to the speed but it is much better. Every year I go back, the government is learning better, is doing a better job. They are not excellent. I am not happy with the way they do it. I think they could get better. But ̶ and, and looking at it on the perspective of America. America is a different story. [laughs] I cannot compare America with Kurdistan. No way. 1:28:17 EI: Eh and how is the young generation? Do you- I mean you are all hopeful or− 1:28:24 AJ: That is the main point. Yes. That was the main thing I wanted to, to say to mention here. The new generation is much better than my generation, much better than my parents’ generation. And two things. When it comes to knowledge and- and education in general. They are more educated. And when it come to we as a Middle Eastern have high temper, we get upset easy. The new generation is not like that. They stop and think before they say and do anything, which is excellent. In my generation, as soon as I hear something bad I react before I think. 1:29:03 EI: Yeah [laughs]. 1:29:03 AJ: It was wrong. The new generation, I have, I have a real hope. This corruption in Middle East. Oh, I am talking about Kurdistan. The corruption is getting lessened because of the new generation are getting in more control of the offices, and the education system in general is heading to the right direction to become better because it is− 1:29:24 EI: What is the physical condition for a child? I mean you said at the end of Saddam time there was− AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah that is, that is. The school’s physical conditions ̶ They are building too many new schools. It is still a not very satisfied condition because again I am here maybe that is why I am thinking, but 100 percent better than Saddam’s time. 100 percent better. 1:29:47 EI: Okay. The education is in Kurdish right now? 1:29:49 AJ: Yes, in Kurdish but, but they opened so many private schools. You can learn English, French, Turkish, any language and you can go to any private school. There are American school there− There are Turkish school there− There are French school there. You have the opportunity and it is your choice to go which, which school you chose. It is really better, much better. And a lot more colleges. In Duhok City itself since 1991 up to, up to now. They had one college. Now they have more than twenty-two uni- colleges. 1:30:23 EI: University. 1:30:23 AJ: Yeah it is a huge university, huge. 1:30:26 EI: Okay yeah. 1:30: 27 AJ: Yeah and that is- that is perfect. 1:30:29 EI: Okay. Their education is− 1:30:31 AJ: It is good. 1:30:32 EI: In Turkish or Kurdish? 1:30:34 AJ: It is Kurdish. It was, it started in Arabic and then uh start from elementary− School in 19 ̶ what I cannot remember the year. They start in Kurdistan now in all colleges is also Kurdish and it is Arabic too but there is lot of English involved. A lot of English. Just to keep up with the world. They decided to keep a lot English in school. 1:30:56 EI: Okay yeah. Good, so you are happy I mean eh− 1:30:57 AJ: Oh yes. 1:30:58 EI: Living here and you like having a country that− 1:31:02 AJ: Oh yeah. 1:31:02 EI: You can go visit in your family. 1:31:06 AJ: Yes absolutely. 1:31:07 EI: Will you go back one day or do you think to go back or you have established life here you will stay? I mean ̶ What do you think about it or during your retirement or? 1:31:16 AJ: It is, as of now, I am not thinking to go back because I have three children who are going to school here. The education system here I am really happy with. I cannot take them over there yet because here is much higher standards. 1:31:32 EI: What is their− 1:31:33 AJ: One of them is in fifth grade. The other one in third grade. The other still at Head Start. 1:31:40 EI: Oh, so they are still small. 1:31:42 AJ: Yeah, they are small. Eh but I, I, I do not want to take them now. If I have to go I have to sacrifice a lot of things− And their life. For me it is easy. I can go there, I can find a job, I can work, but I cannot provide everything they have here. Same thing I cannot do that. For me, it is too early to think about going back home. But for retirement. I do not want to be here for retirement life and I end up in a nursing home. [laughs] I want to be among my family, cousins and have a house and be able to get out and go to the farm, go to the mountain, relax, not worry about the nursing home. [laughs] I do not want to end up in a nursing home. 1:31:20 EI: Okay yeah. 1:32:21 AJ: Yeah. 1:32:21 EI: Yeah and of course I mean we all do not want it. 1:32:25 AJ: Yes. [laughs] 1:32:26 EI: Yeah so which language your child speaking like Kurdish or? 1:32:31 AJ: We speak Kurdish at home. We speak Kurdish and I am taking them to the mosque to learn Arabic as well and English is their first language. 1:32:37 EI: English is their first language? 1:32:40 AJ: Yeah. 1:32:40 EI: Yeah, yeah. 1:32:41 AJ: Because they were born here, they go to school here. 1:32:43 EI: They know English, Kurdish, and Arabic? 1:32:45 AJ: They, they are learning Arabic now yes. 1:32:47 EI: Okay. 1:32:47 AJ: They are now in the process of learning Arabic. 1:32:48 EI: Yeah uh how is the religious life? I mean you− 1:32:52 AJ: Our religious life. It is simple as it could be. We pray, we take them to masjid uh mosque. Uh we try to keep them in touch with my Allah. With my family and other Kurdish families to keep the tradition− in their mind and the respect of elderly and helping each other to keep all that on their mind. And religiously, I tell them, we are Muslim and we live in this country. We are all here human being. The main point for me to teach my children. There is no different between any human being. Treat everybody the same. No religious tells you to treat others different way. We are all human beings. You can pray, you can be Muslim, or can be Christian or Jewish whatever. As long as you are human being and treat each other nice. 1:33:39 EI: Yeah, I will ask life after 2000, 9/11− 1:33:43 AJ: Yeah. 1:33:43 EI: You find many difficulties as your Muslim identity? 1:33:47 AJ: Not really. I, I never had any problem. 1:33:50 EI: Okay. 1:33:50 AJ: Nobody said− 1:33:51 EI: In your job or something yeah? 1:33:53 AJ: No actually in my jobs ̶ in my jobs they treated me better so I would not feel that way. 1:34:00 EI: Ah okay. 1:34:00 AJ: They were well-educated people around me. They treated me even better and helped me better. So, I would not feel bad about yeah. [laughs] 1:34:08 EI: Yeah it is perfect. 1:34:09 AJ: They did and except couple restaurant places, I went- I saw couple like very disrespectful people. They said “Why do not you go back to your country?” I was like I just laughed at them. Look at this guy. I mean I had to laugh at them. That is their small mentality. You cannot change people. Everybody have their own opinion. 1:34:30 EI: But for illiterate people or for like in your job I mean? 1:34:33 AJ: After− 1:34:34 EI: I mean− 1:34:35 AJ: No, I just went to a restaurant. I saw some ̶ I did not even know these people. 1:34:38 EI: Yeah, I am yeah. 1:34:39 AJ: Because they saw I have an accent and they thought I am Muslim, they somehow thought I am a Muslim. I am Muslim but, in their mind, oh this is Muslim, this is bad. Let us say go back to your country. I was like okay whatever. 1:34:51 EI: They were waiters or? 1:34:53 AJ: No just sitting down. A couple people just sitting down. Just customers. 1:34:56 EI: Just one time or? 1:34:57 AJ: Two time actually. 1:34:58 EI: Two times. 1:34:59 AJ: Two times it happened. 1:35:00 EI: After 9/11? 1:35:01 AJ: After 9/11. 1:35:02 EI: Yeah. 1:35:03 AJ: Then I went back to my office uh I worked with an officer John Vansant? I told him that is what happened. He is an American. He got so upset. He said, “I want to go to that person and beat the hell out of them.” [laughs] I said, “No, no, no you do not have to do that. I am just telling you see how some people have small brain, they do not even think.” They just react. 1:35:20 EI: Okay yeah. 1:35:21 AJ: And I do not blame them. He has, he has freedom. Let him talk. 1:34:24 EI: Okay. 1:34:25 AJ: It is okay as long as it does not get physical, he can talk. 1:35:28 EI: [laughs] Yeah. 1:35:28 AJ: Yeah. 1:35:29 EI: Yeah okay thank you so much. 1:35:34 AJ: Yeah. 1:35:34 EI: Yeah and how is life for you in the United States? 1:35:39 AT: It is nice. 1:35:41 EI: [laughs] You are enjoying it? 1:35:43 AT: Yeah. I went back. 1:35:45 EI: Have you ever been in Kurdistan? 1:35:47 AT: 2009. 1:35:48 EI: 2009. How was it? 1:35:50 AT: Twelve years later. It, it was different. It was- there was more improvement but− 1:35:52 EI: I mean may- because you do not have lots of memories from– 1:36:00AT: Yeah. EI: From the childhood. 1:36:01 AT: Childhood. 1:36:02 EI: But eh. Okay for him, he is coming from Kurdistan to United States. But for you, you are going from America to Kurdistan. [laughs] 1:36:12 AT: My memory of my childhood. My memory of my childhood. Like I see dirt roads and because unlimited opportunities you know. Small community like you cannot pretty much go from here to Zakho? Or grab a taxi from like here or California or whatever you know what I mean? So, it is pretty much same village, small villages, small houses, but when I went back it is big like buildings, constructions. They had a dream home. Dream city where it is like a big playground full of lights and all. 1:36:40 EI: For now? Or in 2000? 1:36:46 AT: Yeah. Now I am like I never expected that. 1:36:48 EI: In 2009− 1:36:49 AT: Yeah, I never expected that you know um taxi- you grab a taxi and go anywhere around you know. Go to a restaurant sit down, have a juice or a drink. 1:36:54 AJ: Life is a lot easier. 1:36:55 AT: Yeah. 1:36:55 AJ: More luxury. 1:36:57 EI: Yeah. 1:36:57 AT: Never expect- like 2000 or (19)97, (19)96, I am like yeah where was this, where was that so it is way way, way much better but it is getting- it is getting better and better by the time by the day. 1:37:10 EI: Okay so will you back one day or? 1:37:12 AT: I− 1:37:12 EI: Do you have any− [laughs] 1:37:14 AT: I have a lot of cousins there. I have a bunch of cousins like I will visit here and there like maybe once a year or twice a year but as of, as of going back and staying there I do not know about right now. Maybe retirement, but− [laughs] 1:37:28 AJ: Retirement sounds good. 1:37:29 AT: This place I have, I have, I have grown up here you know I have- the environment you know everything around this place is just− 1:37:35 EI: Is that you are staying here and like if you are doing something you are doing here for the country and the mmm A.K.C.? 1:37:44 AT: Oh yeah, the A.K.C. yeah that is just– 1:37:46 EI: What is your facilities? I mean what is your American Kurdish Council- what are you doing in general? 1:37:53 AT: Um first biggest event is next week- like next week three o’clock, Halabja. We want to ̶ like nobody knows you know like it is still not. British uh UK just announced it is a genocide. U.S.A. they ̶ it is not a genocide you know. Nobody knows about it. 1:38:08 AJ: Politics. 1:38:09 EI: Yeah. 1:38:09 AT: So, we want to spread that around- make that bigger than it is you know because five thousand people dead. Fifteen thousand affected by those guys. 1:38:18 EI: Yeah for the whole process, two thousand Kurds were killed. 1:38:23 AJ: Oh what? 1:38:23 AT: No five thousand were killed. 1:38:24 EI: No, no I mean for the whole process. 1:38:26 AT: Oh yeah. 1:38:27 EI: During from starting in 1980s to 1994. 1:38:29 AJ: How many Kurds? 1:38:30 EI: As I know one hundred and two, two hundred thousand. 1:38:32 AJ: That much. It is even more. It is about two hundred twenty some thousand and another hundred eighty thousand− Beside that− 1:38:42 EI: In Sulaymaniyah I mean. 1:38:43 AJ: And in general, oh yes yes, yes a lot. 1:38:46 EI: Yeah. 1:38:46 AJ: But not, but not just the events but just in general like if because of me all my life if people are like where are you from I am like Kurdistan and they looked at you like I do not know where that is you know. You guys do not know Iraq or south of ar− 1:38:58 AT: Yeah east of Turkey you know. Like they do not know what Kurdistan is or if it is a country so. Just to establish that- put that in people’s mind this is Kurdistan we are Kurds you know this is ̶ we are here and this is what we do you know. We have our own culture our own religion. I mean our own nationality, our own flag and even though we are not established as a country on a map but we are still a country by ourselves. 1:39:22 AJ: We are monster like Saddam Hussein used to call us. [chuckles] We are human being. [laughs] 1:39:28 AT: Yeah, we are doing events for- for just community and get, put the community like it is strong it is like the best, the best community like he said but we still trying put on events for them, do events for them as well. And invite them to picnics or Newroz or to this Halabja event we are putting together. 1:39:44 EI: Okay, okay yeah perfect. Okay thank you so much. If you want to add something please I mean you want to say something that? 1:39:54 AJ: Oh, I would just wish you luck. 1:39:58 EI: You got the general topic uh about, uh you should− 1:39:59 AJ: We covered up I guess. 1:40:03 EI: Yeah so if you want to say anything else. I would take some questions if uh I mean you left something. 1:40:14 AJ: I cannot remember anything off the top of my head and− 1:40:18 EI: Yeah, I mean we talk about lots of things actually. 1:40:21 AJ: All I can tell you I wish you the luck and hopefully get your PhD and we will see you again. [laughs] 1:40:26 EI: Inshallah. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Armanj Ameen & Avras Taha