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Dublin Core
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
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Date of Interview
6/11/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Armine Aksay
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
42:15
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armine was born in Istanbul, Turkey along with her one brother, Arman. During her time in Istanbul, she attended an Armenian high school and sang in her church choir. in 1990, she moved to Salt Lake City, Ohio and got married. She then moved to New Jersey while she worked in NYC. Her and her husband eventually settled down in Binghamton a decade later and had a daughter, Christie. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armine was born in Istanbul, Turkey along with her one brother, Arman. During her time in Istanbul, she attended an Armenian high school and sang in her church choir. in 1990, she moved to Salt Lake City, Ohio and got married. She then moved to New Jersey while she worked in NYC. She and her husband eventually settled down in Binghamton a decade later and had a daughter, Christie. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Istanbul; Armenian genocide; religion; Sebastia; Turkey; World War; Ottoman Empire; traditions; culture"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Istanbul; Armenian genocide; religion; Sebastia; Turkey; World War; Ottoman Empire; traditions; culture</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Armine Aksay
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 11 June 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
JK: Okay this is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s Special Collection Library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is June 11, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:15
AA: Armine Aksay.
0:17
JK: And where were you born?
0:18
AA: In Istanbul, Turkey.
0:20
JK: And who are your parents?
0:22
AA: Uh, my father’s name is Harutyun Gümüşyan and my mother’s is Filor Gülep.
0:30
JK: And where are they from?
0:32
AA: Uh, they are from, uh, my father was born in Istanbul, and my mother, uh, oh no–eh, they–no they were–my father was born in Yozgat and my mother was born in Sivas–Sebastia was the old name, yeah.
0:48
JK: And, uh, were they Armenian? Both Armenian.
0:51
AA: Both Armenian.
0:53
JK: And did they live in, uh, Istanbul in, uh, for the majority of their time before coming to the United States, or?
1:05
AA: Um, my mother lived in Istanbul until, uh, 1994 and my father passed away in Istanbul, uh, in 90– I believe 1993. Um, so they were in there until that time.
1:21
JK: And, um being from– being Armenian and living in Istanbul, what was that like?
1:34
AA: Um, being Armenian in Istanbul, uh, is like um, the same like whoever, you know, is living in there but except we were Christians and, uh, the rest of the, uh, people were Muslims and, um, well I went to Armenian school, uh, in Istanbul. I was graduated from Armenian, uh, high school so we have churches, uh, schools, and, um, a lot of community activities still in Istanbul. Yeah.
2:04
JK: And, um, during– did they– did your family ever have any, um, stories about the Armenian genocide, or did they experience coming from Armenia or going to Istanbul or?
2:19
AA: Okay my grandparents, uh, had the experience so they had to move, uh, after the genocide, 1915 Armenian genocide, they have to they had to move from um different cities uh to Istanbul, uh. My grandmother from she was not from Sebastia but she was from Erzincan, Erzincan. And she moved to Sebastia after the genocide with her two-year-old daughter, um, because they– she had a husband and, um, parents and relatives and they all perished and she was the only one from her family. And, uh, she, she, she was– she escaped basically from Erzincan to Sebastia there he found, they found each other with my grandfather and my grandfather in Sebastia his name was Abraham Mosikyan. Um, he had a wife and a son so he was in military service at that time during the genocide and when he came back he could not find his wife and son and, um, after years–oh I do not know how many years, he found his son only in Lebanon. Uh, somehow he–the, um, you know, I guess he was exiled to the desert and then after that, um, they, he survived and he wa– he lived in Lebanon and he was married at that time and when my grandfather found him and, um, so my grandma and my grandfather got married, uh, in Sebastia and after that they had, um, eight more children, um, and when their children grew up, uh they came to, um, Istanbul. My grandma came to Istanbul. My grandfather had passed away, uh, in Sebastia. And my father’s side also um my grandfather, Ardaşes Gümüşyan was deported to uh Syria– exiled to Syrian Desert. There, and he was engaged to my grandma at that time and uh after four years living in tents, uh, tents he was able to come back and they got married. And later on, I think 1950s he came to Istanbul. Yeah, they moved because they were not comfortable still in, uh, the, you know, the cities that they were living so they moved.
5:09
JK: Wow. So, both your–on you mom’s side, their–her parents and your dad’s side they–genocide.
5:17
AA: They experienced ̶ they had the– yeah genocide.
5:20
JK: –And with that, did they– so they experienced people who did not survive and they–did they have to go through the, um, desert walk?
5:31
AA: Yes. They had, uh, my yeah, my grandfather was–at the Ardaşes Gümüşyan, he, uh, I know that he had some experience of– and they were walking in the desert, uh, but before they reached the desert, they were going to kill them all. But my, uh, another Turkish officer came, um, and then he said just leave them, leave them alone or something like that so that is how he, he got survived and then he was in the desert right after that but otherwise he was not, uh, he was not going to be, you know, in the desert even–yeah, he was not.
6:16
JK: That’s crazy. So, through each of the like each village that uh people lived in they would come and get them and then–
6:26
AA: Yeah, they were, they were what I was told that they were getting old men over I think twelve years old or something like that and the– taking them somewhere and then, uh, no news. You know, they would, either they got killed or they were exiled or deported or something happened and then the women and children, uh, also they did not know what to do so they had to escape if they had the chance, you know, they find the opportunity to, uh, escape but yeah. That is all I know. Yeah.
7:00
JK: That is crazy. Did– do you know if they were told in advance the villages like from other people that the Ottoman Empire was coming to take them away, or probably not?
7:16
AA: I do not believe so, they, they did not know anything.
7:18
JK: So, they did not know–
7:20
AA: They did not know anything about that just because all of the sudden the soldiers appeared, uh, and then, uh, you know, they did not know what was going on and– eh– so they had to leave.
7:36
JK: And how did your, um, grandfather on your, uh, I believe it was your mom’s side, uh, find his son?
7:48
AA: Oh, he was, uh, well he was looking, uh, everywhere and, um, and then he was– whoever was coming from other villages or cities he was paying them so if they have any news from them. He was giving gold coins or something like that at that time and then, then finally, he found, uh, in Lebanon I do not know how that happened but it was just, uh, yeah and–and he was married and he had a son. His name was Mardiros and he had a son we– which he named his son his father’s name, Abraham. So– and they were very happy to find each other, yeah, after so many years, yeah.
8:36
JK: Wow and um when your grandparents on both sides had to leave their villages to uh be exiled do you remember how old they were or?
8:48
AA: Oh Uh, my, yeah, I think my because they were getting married early at that time I believe my grandmother my mother’s side uh from Erzincan eh she was seventeen because she had a two-two year old daughter already and uh my father’s side uh my grandma was engaged and I think she was in her eight–like eighteen and then when they got married she was twenty-two, something like that. Yeah, yeah.
9:27
JK: That’s interesting. And um so they were exiled and they eventually most of them got–went to Istanbul?
9:36
AA: After the Second World War they were able to come to Istanbul. Yeah not the First World War. They– we were still there, you know, in the town, they came back and but they did not have anything– all their- the properties the house our businesses, everything was gone so they had to you know they had to be on rent or you know they did not have anything when they came back everything was taken. And, uh, um, then they could not move until, until after Second World War they came to Istanbul. Because I guess it was not still safe for them and to be in the village or another city so Istanbul– because in Istanbul there was a lot of other people like the Greeks or you know French, Greek or uh Jewish a lot of other people were living. So, it was more safer and we had also another reason probably we had Armenian schools in there and churches in Istanbul so otherwise I would not be able to speak Armenian you know yeah I would not know.
10:48
JK: Interesting. So, after they were exiled they came back to their villages and then they–
10:53
AA: Their villages and then they moved after. Yeah, yeah.
10:57
JK: Because usually a lot of people that I have interviewed they did not–
11:01
AA: They did not–
11:01
JK: Yeah come back.
11:02
AA: Yeah, they did not come back. They could not probably that is why they did not survive and you know or they, they were in another country so they– it was hard for them to move back. Yeah.
11:13
JK: Of course. And have you ever visited the villages that your grandparents–
11:17
AA: No, I never had the chance to–
11:19
JK: Would you be interested if you did–
11:21
AA: I would, yeah, I would go, oh yeah. Yeah, I have a– from my grandfather I have a, uh deed, I, I still saved and it is in Ottoman handwriting and with the, um, with the stamp I think Ottoman Empire stamp and, uh, I sent to Michigan University. There was a professor in there and then, uh, he, he was able to translate the Ottoman Turkish to English. He was a professor, this was couple years ago and then, uh, I found out that, uh, that two of them– one of them was the, uh, the paper that he did the military service– he completed, and the other one was a deed for a property, for a land and a– and a store in Yozgat, I still have it. And I guess he had it but them after the genocide that deed was not good anymore so he could not you know he could not take it. It was–
12:29
JK: It is crazy that he kept it still.
12:31
AA: [laughs] Yeah.
12:33
JK: So, um, when they had to be exiled from the villages, they– did they have like stuff that they could bring or not–
12:41
AA: They could not– no– they could not take anything. Yeah, yeah.
12:45
JK: So, they had–
12:45
AA: They had to leave everything. Yeah, yeah. Because government did not let them to take anything, yeah. Yeah.
12:53
JK: And did your grandparents speak both Armenian and Turkey? Because–
12:58
AA: Armenian and Turkish, yes. Yeah. Because we had Armenian schools in there before, you know, before the genocide, yeah.
13:07
JK: And, uh, when, uh, your parents lived in Istanbul, did they speak Armenian? Both of them speak Armenian and Turkish?
13:16
AA: Yes, both, yeah.
13:18
JK: And, which one was more preferred in your household? Like let us say you are at home or, uh, with you and your family would you guys speak Turkish or Armenian?
13:29
AA: Well, I– because I went to the– I went to Armenian school I sp– I spoke Armenian and my mother always, uh, she was speaking Armenian to us and, uh, and my grandma– grandmothers also. Yeah but both– we were– because we lived in Turkey and in home sometimes we speak Turkish, too. Yeah, yeah.
13:53
JK: So– and you guys went to an Armenian Church in Istanbul growing up?
13:58
AA: Yes, yeah. I grew up– yeah, I was in the church and I was in the school, yeah.
14:05
JK: That is nice. And did you have any siblings growing up? Um, in your household.
14:11
AA: I have a brother, yeah.
14:13
JK: And what’s his name?
14:15
AA: Arman.
14:15
JK: Arman. And he went to Armenian school?
14:18
AA: Yes, he went to Armenian school also.
14:21
JK: And, um, uh, growing up in Istanbul, and you had Armenian friends because you went to Armenian school.
14:29
AA: Armenian school, yeah. And I, I had Ar– Turkish friends also from– yeah from the neighborhood or you know wherever we were.
14:37
JK: But they did not go to Armenian School, right?
14:38
AA: No, no, no. Yeah.
14:41
JK: So, it was both. And they– that is nice.
14:43
AA: Yeah, in, in Armenian school, we had also Turkish classes like, uh, history and Turkish language classes and, you know, you were learning both. Both languages, yeah, yeah that was like.
14:56
JK: Oh, that is nice, yeah. So, a mixture.
14:58
AA: Yeah.
14:59
JK: And, um, did– were there any traditions that your, uh, family maintained in the household in Istanbul that resembled Armenian culture?
15:08
AA: Uh, Armenian, Armenian culture, we like New Years’, um, Eve, New, New Years’ Day, uh, we were making Noah’s pudding. My mother always made that– uh, that is the tradition. Uh, because it– we make a lot of different things, raisins and apricots and stuff like that so that, that was a tradition. And we were always going to Church, uh, holidays like Easter, Christmas, and, um, the Virgin Mary’s Assumption in August. Uh, like major holidays, uh, first to the church and then after that we– my father was taking us to, uh, relatives but whoever is older first and then visiting them. And, um, well we were getting Easter we– they were giving us what– we had the dinner and then they were giving us colored eggs, you know candies or cakes. Chocolate, something like that and that is, that is a tradition. After the church we always go to, uh, relatives’ homes and, you know, yeah.
16:18
JK: That is nice.
16:19
AA: Yeah.
16:20
JK: And, um, did you celebrate– I am assuming Armenian Christmas–?
16:24
AA: Armenian Christmas on January 6th and, uh, the Easter– April. Yeah.
16:34
JK: And, um, when did you come to America and moved here?
16:39
AA: 1990, uh, yeah September of 1990, I moved here.
16:43
JK: And may I ask what was the reason, or–
16:45
AA: I got married.
16:47
JK: Oh, you were– yeah, yeah.
16:48
AA: Yeah.
16:49
JK: And, um, uh, your husband– was he Armenian?
16:52
AA: He was, uh, from Istanbul– same, uh, Armenian, yeah. But he was here earlier, like ten years before, uh, I moved here– he came, yeah.
17:02
JK: And, um, moving from Istanbul, which is heavily Armenian and Turkish, um, traditions and coming to America was it different to see the– see the differences–
17:14
AA: Cultures difference, yes, there is a culture difference. And, uh, here, like in the beginning of course it was difficult to learn the language and, it–and, um, all different cultures in here– mixed cultures and, um, but, uh, well first I came to Utah. Salt Lake City, Utah. Five years I was living in Utah and that was different– we did not– we had Armenians in there. They, uh, they were from Lebanon, uh, after the Lebanon War, I think, I believe 1970s, they moved, uh, here. And then, uh, but like, um, I believe there was like thirteen or fourteen families that was all, in, in Utah. And there was no Armenian Church so there was a Greek Church whenever we had weddings or baptism or Sunday mass, once in a while, we were, we were, uh, in Greek Church.
18:14
JK: And then you came to Binghamton?
18:18
AA: I came– no– I moved– from there I moved to New Jersey and I worked in the city, New York City. Twelve years I lived in there and then, then we moved here, uh, 2008, uh, May 2008 because two years before that I– we bought the, the property, this place. I was thinking maybe this, this will be, uh, retirement place for us. Once in a while we were coming and, you know, staying couple of days and then after that, um, we decided to move. Yeah, and it was good for my daughter’s education because, uh, high school was better in here and also the college, you know, uh, yeah.
19:01
JK: And did you only have one daughter?
19:04
AA: One daughter.
19:05
JK: And what is her name?
19:06
AA: Christie.
19:07
JK: And, uh, does she speak Armenian as well?
19:09
AA: She speaks fluent Armenian and Turkish also.
19:12
JK: Oh, very nice. And, um, so moving to all these, uh different places in America, which one was the most heavily, heavily, uh, Armenian culture, uh–
19:25
AA: Istanbul will be that.
19:27
JK: Oh yeah.
19:28
AA: Yeah, we had all kinds of, uh, Armenian, um, well we had the big Armenian community–fifty thousand Armenians in there and then we had a lot of activities like choirs or schools churches open, uh, thirty-three churches. Uh, not all of them open all the time but, uh, special days we were there– we were in churches that we– there was no community. So, we had– you feel more Armenian when you are in Istanbul. But in here far– we are far from each other we do not, we do not live close by. That is why I do not feel the same, you know, the same thing.
20:14
JK: In, um, Istanbul, did you– was– since there was a lot of mixtures of culture was– did you ever see like, um, differences like people did not like certain cultures or not? Or did you see everyone mixed together well–
20:30
AA: Every– well, I– everyone, uh, was mixed together well and we– all neighbors, you know, our neighborhood we had Greeks, we had Jewish we had Turkish and all kinds of people but we, we did not see any difference. Except, uh, except the, uh, the religion.
20:46
JK: Oh yeah.
20:46
AA: You know, other than that we were like the same, you know?
20:49
JK: Same food–
20:49
AA: Same food, same– everything, the culture same and, you know, uh, yeah, we, we were okay, you know. Except, uh, during the religion but they were, you know, they– once in a while, my father had friends– they were Muslims and then once in a while we went to the Mosque, uh, when they invited us.
21:10
JK: Oh wow.
21:11
AA: But yeah, and then sometimes they were coming to our church, too.
21:14
JK: Oh, that is nice.
21:14
AA: Yeah, for special days, yeah. So, we did not, I did not see any problems when I was living there.
21:22
JK: That is good. And, um, what kind of foods did you experience living in Istanbul, like traditional Armenian food or Turkish, or Greek?
21:31
AA: Oh well I can say Istanbul– because Greeks used Byzantium– it used to Byzantium and Greeks were living in there we had Greek culture and then mostly Greek foods I saw. From my grandmothers, uh also Eastern Turkey, so we had the Armenian food, uh, exposed to Armenian food too so sometimes we were cooking that sometimes the Greek. Um, there’s little differences. We had, uh, I cannot say but we have in, uh, in our culture we have more meat and then the Greek more vegetables. Yeah, so it is just a mix of everything we were cooking, yeah.
22:15
JK: That is really nice. And, um, in New Jersey, uh, in America did– was there a big Armenian culture?
22:23
AA: Yes, there was a lot of churches and a lot of Armenians in there. Um, as well as in the city, New York City. So, um, I had my aunt– I have an aunt in Rego Parks, Queens and another aunt and an uncle in New Jersey. And relatives were there and a lot of Armenians, yeah, living in there, yeah.
22:47
JK: That is nice. And, um, how– what would you consider yourself as, um, a person– how would define it? Like are you Armenian, American or Turkey-Armenian, or, what would you say?
23:00
AA: I think I am– oh, well I feel like I am more like Armenian, uh, because I speak Armenian in home, the food I eat–sometimes I cook American or Italian but, uh, I still have an accent, you know. [laughs] I cannot get rid of that, um, and I do not feel like really, I am an American yet, since I am living here long time like since 1990, twenty-seven years. Um, I feel like I am more like Armenian but we have the Turkish culture also we carry that with us. That is another thing, yeah, so just, uh, quarter, uh, American and quarter I can say Turkish and then half is Armenian. [laughs] 50 percent Armenian, yeah, yeah.
23:54
JK: That is nice- And was it important for your family to, um, teach about the Armenian cultures and traditions as opposed, let us say living here in America and teaching your daughter– raising her– was it important to teach those Armenian traditions rather than American, or–
24:12
AA: When I came here?
24:14
JK: Hmm.
24:15
AA: Yeah, well, uh, yes. If you think about how I was trying to teach, um, my daughter, I remember that I put her, I registered her to Armenian schools so she learns Armenian. Saturday school. Um, so I tried to teach her the language and the songs that I know, you know, so we do not lose, lose our cultures, that is, that is main thing that we have to– yeah, yeah.
24:47
JK: And, um, so you are saying you sent her to Armenian Saturday school?
24:51
AA: Saturday school, yes.
24:53
JK: And so, for normal school she would go to like a normal American–
24:57
AA: Normal American, yeah. I– she was in Catholic school until, uh, middle school, uh, elementary. And then after that she was in public, uh, you know the middle school and the high school. But, uh, she, she, she was speaking Armenian in home when she was little but she did not have any problems learning English when she started to school because, because of the TV probably, she was exposed to– she was watching everything and then yeah, she was, uh, she learned very fast.
25:32
JK: Oh wow, that is funny.
25:32
AA: Yeah.
25:33
JK: And, um, do you still, uh, try to maintain the Armenian tradition now today, since she is old– I am assuming she is much older now and, uh, going to like Armenian church or celebrating Armenian–
25:48
AA: Sometimes she comes, when she is not busy she, she lives, uh, on her own in a different apartment. Bu, uh, if I ask her, uh, there is an event or something that she wants to help me, or, you know, she will, she will come. And because she was– I sing in the church, uh, because she was always in Sunday school and in church, she remembers the mass– uh, the Armenian mass. So, she can sing with me also she tries to help me and she, she has a lot of Armenian friends also from New Jersey, from school, yeah.
26:25
JK: That is nice. So, growing up in New Jersey, she– even though she went to Catholic school and, uh, then public high school later on, did– were there Armenian students in either of those schools or was it through Saturday school?
26:39
AA: Only Saturday school, yeah, she had Armenian friends.
26:42
JK: So, she had a mixture of American friends–
26:44
AA: American and, uh, yeah and Armenian.
26:47
JK: That is nice and, um, how would you define being Armenian, or what is the most important part of the Armenian identity that you are–
27:00
AA: Hmm. Armenian identity, um, is the language. I think we should speak the Armenian language in home. That is very important– that is how keeps us– and also at the, the church, I believe. You know, um, that is how we, um, we learn all the, uh, things that we we never, uh, learned in, uh, Turkey, in Istanbul, in schools. Some of the things– for example we did not have Armenian history in, in–even I was in Armenian school, Armenian high school; they did not teach us Armenian history. Yeah. So, when I came here, I searched and I found a lot of– we had the Kings and Queens or the, the wars with the Persians or whatever. I, I never knew that, so, yeah.
27:42
JK: And, so, um, going back to Istanbul and take, uh, going to Armenians who are there, did they, they taught everything in Armenian I assume–?
28:01
AA: Everything in Armenian except, uh, Turkish language and, uh, Turkish, uh, history.
28:07
JK: So what kind of– so would you just have like Armenian language classes and then like normal other subjects?
28:15
AA: Oh no, we had– everything was Armenian because we had Armenian teachers so biology, chemistry, math, all Armenian. Um, all, all– the principal was Armenian and everything except couple of, uh, classes that we had Turkish–that has to be Turkish.
28:33
JK: And would that be taught by the Turkish people?
28:35
AA: Turkish, yes. Yes, Turkish.
28:40
JK: Interesting, and um do you think the Armenian community here in, uh, Binghamton is going, uh, keep, uh, the Armenian identity strong or do you think we are losing our–
28:54
AA: I do not think we’re losing but the, the problem is young generation, uh, find– they find jobs in elsewhere in different cities so they move. But then new people are moving here, uh, and then we have young– with their young kids and, uh, like that is so– I think once in a while we are losing little bit the community and then after that, uh, we still have. But I think we should continue the church has to continue, first of all, and the language classes we have to have so we do not forget, you know. Our culture has to continue–yeah, grow, yeah.
29:42
JK: And, um, and, um, let us see. So, going back to the Armenian, um, community here in Binghamton, do you think it would be, um, nice to have a Sunday school because I know we do not have one or like a Armenian language school?
30:00
AA: We should have the Armenian language and Sunday school also, yeah, we need that, yeah.
30:06
JK: To help them– to help keep our, um, identity.
30:09
AA: Yes.
30:10
JK: And, um, would you ever– have you ever went, uh, been back to Istanbul?
30:17
AA: Once, uh, after I came here in 1997, I was able to stay there for two weeks because I was working in here so I could not stay longer. And after that I did not– I could not.
30:32
JK: Do you want to go back if you can?
30:34
AA: I would like– yeah, if I had the chance I would like to go but I– the reason is I have to work always and then I do not have a long period of, you know, vacation time, that’s the– that’s the reason.
30:48
JK: And, going back to, um, growing up in Istanbul when you were younger, did you– what were your parents’ roles in the household? Like–
30:59
AA: My mother was home– she was a homemaker but she was a tailor also–a woman’s tailor. So sometimes she was making dresses or suits for other ladies but she was always home cooking for us and, you know, I was helping her clean. And my father was working all the time and then providing everything– all the school expenses that we had or, uh, the, you know, all other expenses he was, uh, yeah, he was working.
31:30
JK: And, um, what were the circumstances, um, so the main circumstances that, um, made your ancestors or your, uh, grandparents leave, um, the villages was the genocide–
31:46
AA: Yes, main reason was the genocide because they were not comfortable in there. Oh, one thing I, I just remembered–my father–my grandfather, uh, um, changed my father’s first name to a Turkish name just because they were, um, he was in school and the other kids were bothering him. And he– they– sometimes they were, you know, throwing stones and stuff like that, uh, because he is Armenian and he, he changed– his name was Harutyun, my father’s name, and then he had to change it to Atik ,which Atik is a Turkish name so they do not bother him anymore. And then, before that also, after the genocide, there was a–the government ordered, uh, to change the last names because we have last names ends with I-A-N so the–our last name was Gümüşyan and he changed it to Gümüşok. Uh, that– so it is close to Turkish– the ending is not I-A-N. So, they were comfortable. But until that time, after second World War, I guess still they were not, you know, they were bothered in there, they had to move to Istanbul to change the place, so, yeah. That is, that is the–
33:14
JK: The government had made people–
33:17
AA: Made all Armenians change their last name.
33:21
JK: Wow.
33:21
AA: Yeah. So, whatever they remembered, uh, any, any kind of last name Turkish, they changed it and, yeah, so, um, so no one knows that they are, you know, they are Armenian. But we were still going to the church or, um, continue the culture and everything but– outside, you know, they were not speaking Armenian when they were out, out of home. Yeah, so, that is the–
33:49
JK: Did they have Armenian churches during that time?
33:52
AA: No, they– during that time all the churches, uh, they were, uh, closed. They made, um, storage– the government made the, the churches storage or they, they were keeping animals or something like that. All, all– that, uh, wherever the genocide happened. And after the genocide, um, also they could not open the churches we do not have any churches in the eastern part of Turkey which we were. Uh, but only in Istanbul so the– because the– in Istanbul we had some Armenians also before the genocide so they– we had to– also they took some of the schools from Greeks and, uh, because same thing happened to Greek, Greeks. Uh, in one day they had to leave the country– government ordered them to leave the country, um, in one day– without taking anything. So, they went to Greece at that time, I do not remember when was the, uh, date but after Armenian genocide I believe. And, so they left their schools and churches so we took over, uh, we– in Istanbul– that is the reason we had–
35:01
JK: –to go.
35:01
AA: Yeah, we had to go to their church and that was an Armenian Church later on.
35:08
JK: So, um, the government really had an influential part like the villages and
35:13
AA: Yes, in the–everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah.
35:16
JK: It is crazy.
35:17
AA: Yeah.
35:19
JK: Um, when– before the Armenian genocide, um, so your grandparents who were living in the villages at the time, what, what were their occupations? Do you remember? Or–
35:31
AA: Oh I– my, um, my mother– I remember my mother's father's– I mean, that side of grandfather, uh, he was, um, making, uh, he was working with metal, making the shoe ho– the nails for shoe horses and that kind of things. Metal worker– and I do not remember my other, he did not tell me what was the ̶ what was his occupation, you know.
36:03
JK: And were there Armenians in Turkish and other, um, people living in the village or was it mostly Armenians living in the villages where your grandparents grew up before the Armenian genocide?
36:16
AA: Oh, mostly Armenians. Yeah. Sebastia is– Sebastia was full of Armenians, maybe few Turkish people– they were coming from other religions. And also, Yozgat also is like, Erzincan, Erzincan also a lot of Armenians were living in there. Yeah, they had a lot of schools. Yeah.
36:38
JK: So, everything was mostly Armenian based?
36:40
AA: Armenian based, yeah, but there was also Turkish and Kurdish also were living mixed, but mostly Armenians. Yeah. Yeah.
36:52
JK: And would– is there anything else you would like to add?
36:55
AA: Oh! [laughs]
36:57
JK: That you can remember or stories or anything?
37:01
AA: I, I do not know if I, well I, I may remember later on. [laughs]
37:07
JK: Maybe about the genocide or– go ahead, yeah.
37:12
AA: Oh, um, in, uh, what happened was in Istanbul I remember some of the things were going on and, uh, sometimes they were not in, um, the churches for example we want to make a repair or, uh, needs to paint or something, they were not letting us. We had to get the permission from the government, but sometimes for the– for that kind of things was hard to get the permission. And, uh, you know, and, uh, other than that. In– from my grandfather's, I do not know, they did not tell us a lot of things, you know, after the genocide, they were afraid to talk about so they were thinking probably we will go and tell everybody in there so they keep, kept everything, uh, yeah, uh, for themselves. But in Istanbul, I experienced couple of things like they were in schools, school also they sometimes they were telling us if we have less than some students, student population in, in each school they would close the school or something like that. Yeah if it is less than I think two thousand students or something at the time this was in 1980s. We had–sometimes we had pressure from the government. I do not know how is the situation right now. I do not remember anything but, uh, yeah, that is like–
38:50
JK: So, there was still–
38:52
AA: Still uh–
38:53
JK: Something like pressure from the government but not the normal people living in the area.
39:00
AA: No, no. Just, yeah. People were okay with that they never, you know– all the neighborhood was good and but the government still, until now, maybe, they may– they may have, you know, uh, the control. What– once they had told we had passports and the ID, ID cards so we all Armenians had to be thirty-one– the first page of the– of the either pass– passport if you want to have or the ID. Uh and other people did not, they had other numbers, so they were probably controlling all the Armenians whoever left in there with that numbers. This is– they that is the thing that, yeah, the way that you know– they know that you are label, label everybody. Yeah, this, this is a Christian or this, you know. Thirty-one maybe it is a 301(AD) because we accepted the Christianity in years 301(AD). That is the reason maybe they put the thirty-one on the IDs. Um, and then the– when there was a military coupe, uh, in 1980, military took over, because there was a lot of fights in the universities, there was leftist rightist or radical beliefs. And, uh, and at that time, uh, well, a lot of students were in, were put in prison.
40:35
JK: Armenian students?
40:36
AA: Armenian, as well as Turkish. Kurdish, Turkish, everybody, so even if they did not do anything, you know, they did not know who was responsible of that. And, and we had hard times at that time, you know, yeah. Yeah. And yeah.
40:52
JK: Do– how do you because I know, um, the Turkish government still has not– denies about the Armenian genocide. Even America does not recognize it as a genocide.
41:04
AA: Yeah, it was a genocide because when– it– because I believe when, when you, um, when you are, um, getting, like, collecting older men from their homes, uh, that is a, that is a genocide because you take everybody out from their homes and then you just deport them. All of them, all Armenians this is towards all, you know, to one race and that is a genocide. I do not know why they do not accept until now. That is tha–that is crazy. I do not know why. They should because if you, if they do not accept it will continue. I believe it that another genocide will come and then tha– that is going to be terrible to other people, you know? Yeah. So that is what–[laughs] That is what my opinion is.
42:01
JK: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well thank you so much.
42:05
AA: You are welcome. You are welcome Jackie.
42:09
JK: Great. Awesome. I hope you get all the–
42:16
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Armine Aksay
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/69d6cb641196f02deb3452d3f57456d9.jpg
7cc41ed419b30db37fa445298f1be9f1
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Art Carey
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Art Carey worked as a reporter, staff writer, editor and columnist at the Philadelphia Inquirer for 34 years. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Princeton University and a Master's degree in Journalism from Columbia University. Carey has won several state- and national-level journalism awards for his newspaper and magazine articles."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792},"12":0}">Art Carey worked as a reporter, staff writer, editor and columnist at the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em> for 34 years. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Princeton University and a Master's degree in Journalism from Columbia University. Carey has won several state- and national-level journalism awards for his newspaper and magazine articles.</span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
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Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Radicals; Social activist; Students for a Democratic Society; Vietnam War; Liberation movements; Journalism; Tom Hanks; Voluntarism; Gordon Gekko; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Lunar landing; Watergate; Bill Clinton; Robert F. Kennedy; John F. Kennedy; Activism"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Radicals; Social activist; Students for a Democratic Society; Vietnam War; Liberation movements; Journalism; Tom Hanks; Voluntarism; Gordon Gekko; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Lunar landing; Watergate; Bill Clinton; Robert F. Kennedy; John F. Kennedy; Activism</span>
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116:47
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Journalists; Editors; Philadelphia Inquirer; Carey, Art--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Art Carey
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: Not dated
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
AC (00:00:08):
Testing one, two.
SM (00:00:09):
That should be going.
AC (00:00:12):
Testing, testing, one, two, three. Are we recording?
SM (00:00:15):
Yes, you will see it right there if it is moving.
AC (00:00:17):
It is moving.
SM (00:00:17):
It is moving.
AC (00:00:18):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:00:18):
We are okay now.
AC (00:00:18):
Okay. We are in.
SM (00:00:26):
Okay. Well, I am going to be reading some of these questions, and some of the questions may be repetitive.
AC (00:00:29):
Sure.
SM (00:00:30):
I am trying to get responses to each of our interviewees. First question is, the boomer generation in the (19)60s and early (19)70s is being attacked as one of the reasons for the breakdown of American society. Could you respond to this criticism and comment on the period and its impact on present day America?
AC (00:00:49):
Well, I am afraid I agree to some extent with that accusation. I feel that the boomer generation was very self-absorbed and self-centered, a very opportunistic generation in many ways. It had a knack or a penchant for self-mythologizing and for glorifying its baser hedonistic tendencies in the cloak of some kind of greater movement of progressiveness or enlightenment. And I do not think the baby boom generation deserves that. I think, for instance, all that counterculture stuff that happened in the (19)60s was basically just a huge generation-wide adolescent rebellion that was politicized and embellished with all these trappings of ideological transcendence, when, in fact, it was just a bunch of spoiled-brat kids acting out and rebelling against their parents.
SM (00:02:32):
This thought that a lot of the young people at that time had, the boomers, that we are a unique generation, we are going to change the world for the better, looking 25 years down the road and some of the way that the young people at that time prophesied those kinds of thoughts, is there any validity to that? Or is it too early to evaluate them?
AC (00:02:54):
Well, I agree with you that I think we had that conceit. We were arrogant. We were cocky. We did feel that we were a unique generation, and to some extent, certainly in terms of sheer numbers, we were. We were a demographic bulge. I guess there were people who enjoyed the illusion that we were going to change the world, that we were going to make the world a better place. But I do not think that we have. In fact, if anything, I think that the world is worse in many key respects because of the "contributions" of the baby boom generation. I think you could make a case that the breakdown of the family, the breakdown of morality, is attributable to some extent, to a lot of the libertine philosophies that were championed during that period. I think you could make a case that AIDS is a result of the sexual revolution that we championed; this whole idea of if it feels good, do it. The zipless fuck, copulation without responsibility, was an idea that my generation promoted under the guise of individual freedom and self-fulfillment and self-realization. And I think it has been disastrous. It is certainly contributed to the rise of divorce, which is a terribly destabilizing thing for the family. Not only divorce among our- ourselves, not only divorce among baby boom peers, but divorce in other generations. I think that a lot of our parents, people in our parents' generation, saw what we were doing and thought, "Well, if they can do it, why am I denying myself? Why am I missing out on the fun?" A lot of them were tempted, perhaps, to jettison marriages that otherwise they might have been inclined to stick with, just because of that whole spirit of self-indulgence and hedonism and sexual gratification at any cost. I think you could make that case. I think also that you could make the case that the crack epidemic and the drugs that have ripped apart our cities are a direct result of the glorification of drugs that occurred during the (19)60s. Again, another thing spearheaded by our generation, this idea that the drugs are not only harmless, but a way to enhance your appreciation of life, à la Timothy Leary, and a way to experience things more deeply and more profoundly. We, of course, the white, upper-middle class kids who were active in the SDS and who organized the student strikes, had this attitude that drugs are bad for certain people who cannot handle them. But we are intelligent. We are enlightened. We have the sophistication to handle drugs in a proper recreational manner. And for us, drugs will be an enhancement. For us, drugs are positive, and they are a badge of liberation and a badge of membership in the Age of Aquarius. Those are three things that I think have happened because of the generation that was going to save the world and instead ruined it.
SM (00:06:55):
You really believe that?
AC (00:06:57):
I do, in a lot of ways. I am very cynical about my generation.
SM (00:07:00):
Let us check, make sure that it is working.
AC (00:07:02):
Still turning.
SM (00:07:06):
Let me make sure of it. I double check on this, to make sure that this is right. We are okay.
AC (00:07:08):
Okay.
SM (00:07:08):
Let us work.
AC (00:07:08):
It is okay, bandit. It is all right, buddy.
SM (00:07:10):
It is okay. Bandit, it is all right.
AC (00:07:13):
He always gets nervous with a picture. I have always been very cynical about it and started when I was in college, because I was so aware of the hypocrisy and the phoniness, and the theater involved. I love that scene in Forrest Gump where he decks the SDS twit after he slaps around his girlfriend. To me, that really captured a lot of the duplicity and phoniness involved in the anti-war movement and all that radical politics. It was an affectation. It was so riddled with contradictions and spoiled-brat cynicism. But I remember at Princeton one time, the Black students took over an administration building called New South, and I was friendly with a lot of the students. The day of the demonstration, they were out there throwing Frisbees and cavorting in the sunshine and having a good time, and just acting like kids. As soon as the TV station showed up, they all put on their berets and their dashikis, linked arms and got real hard-looking in their faces. It was theater. It was just a game. Just a game.
SM (00:08:40):
How would you consider yourself when you were a college student? Were you a conservative or a liberal or moderate? Or you really did not have at that juncture-
AC (00:08:41):
I would say I was pretty much apolitical. I was very naive about politics. Even though I grew up on the Philadelphia Main Line and was influenced by a lot of conservative Republican type people, I was also aware of the shortcomings of conservatism and sufficiently alienated or repelled by the hypocrisy and phoniness of conservatives. Not to cast my lot with them. I went to college fairly uninformed about politics, uninformed about the Vietnam War, uninformed about social injustice and civil rights. And I learned a lot. I guess my philosophical sympathy tends to lean with Democrats and the left because I feel like the Democratic Party is the party of the disenfranchised and the disadvantaged. It is a party that tries to help the people at the bottom, whereas the Republicans try to preserve the power and money and privileges of the people at the top. I often say, I do not think you can be a true Christian and a Republican. They are innately a contradiction. I do not see how you can be both. I know that if Jesus Christ were to come back now, He would not be voting for Bob Dole. He would not be a Republican. He would be helping out other people, comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable, which has always been the implicit mission of Democrats. One reason I am very hard on the radicals and the social activists is that I, in some ways, hold them to a higher standard. I expect more of them. I was very disillusioned and disappointed when I saw them being phonies and being hypocritical. SDS guys, talking about sexual liberation, and meanwhile calling their girlfriends chicks and expecting them to run the mimeograph machines. Or talking about power to the people and helping the disenfranchised and the disadvantaged, and talking a good game when it comes to abstractions in the Bantu, in South Africa, but being incredibly inconsiderate and supercilious and disdainful toward the Italian janitors who had to clean up the beer can and vomits and pizza boxes after their weekend binges on campus.
SM (00:11:19):
I want to ask, again, a question dealing with 1996. What has been the impact of boomers on America? And of course, you have gone into some of the positives and negatives. If you were to look at the ideology, in fact, there is no question that the young people of the (19)60s were one of the main reasons why the Vietnam War ended, and people will say it. Some people will say via Senator McCarthy, there has not been any other generation in American history that had such an impact on foreign policy. He knows history. He said there were some terrors, but nothing to the magnitude with what happened in the Vietnam War. Looking at that, that they did stop the Vietnam War, that many boomers were involved in the civil rights movement and went on down South and many continue today in the universities' fight for issues like affirmative action, our foreign policy has really never been the same since. The whole concept of the women's movement and feminism really came out of that era. The environmental movement in 1970 with Senator Nelson at the helm, that movement has continued. Looking at a lot of the things that have ... Again, I am a boomer. I am supposed to be unbiased in my interviews with each individual, but isn't there some validity to the fact that the boomers have created some positives in this society via the showmanship that you talk about?
AC (00:12:44):
Sure, I think they have. Right. Right. I was answering that question to respond to the way you framed it, which is that they are attacked, and I think that some of those attacks are justified. In other words, I do not have an unalloyed, rosy view of my generation. I tend to be somewhat cynical about the generation and its accomplishments. But there have been accomplishments. There is no question that the Vietnam War was a bad war, it was a wrong war, and that my generation was instrumental in stopping it. There is no question that they spearheaded a number of liberation movements, beginning with civil rights, that they certainly promoted their progress. The sexual liberation and the women's movement, and I guess to some extent, the liberation of homosexuals, which is still continuing today. I guess they can justly take credit for that, breaking down a lot of racial and class barriers in American society. And also, holding the government accountable, making sure that the government lives up to its promise, tells the truth, lives up to its high ideals and its lofty image of rectitude and righteousness. To me, I guess the biggest accomplishment of the generation is that it showed that the government can lie, and it showed that the institutions of America are wonderful and awe-inspiring, and deserving of honor and respect. The people, the human beings who hold those offices and who represent those institutions, are often very fallible and capable of mendacity and deceit and treachery. I guess that was one of the great lessons, the Vietnam War, is that people in power make mistakes and it is the habit of the powerful to try to cover up those mistakes. And that led to as a lot of disillusionment and a long period of self-examination, self-flagellation, to some extent, I guess.
SM (00:16:02):
Certain people in positions of power and responsibility were President Johnson, certainly Robert [inaudible] at that time. Certainly, the Nixon Administration and what happened with Watergate and so forth, left most of the boomers, I would say most of them, with a lack of trust about who to go to, whether they be leaders, and even leaders on the pulpit. Ministers, leaders in the corporate boardroom. Leaders, period. This leads into my next question. Has that continued today, and can today's generation of youth learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? This question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look to (19)60s and early (19)70s as a period of activism, drugs, and single-minded issues. Though many of the same issues remain, there are new ones, and the lessons of the past are either not taught in schools or never discussed between the parents, which is today's boomer in today's generation. Please give your thoughts on the issues in boomers' lives and how they can have an impact on students' lives today. For particular emphasis, has this concept of lack of trust in leadership directly gone now to their kids, and that is why we are seeing very few kids voting, and very few kids continue to have trust in leadership, even though there is a tremendous rise in volunteerism? 85 percent of today's young people are bound to some sort of volunteer activity, but they're really not showing true citizenship. They are really not voting, and they do not care about politics. Is this is a direct relation to their parents, the boomers?
AC (00:17:44):
Right. That is an interesting question. When I did my book on incompetence, one of the people I interviewed was Digby Baltzell, the University of Pennsylvania Sociologist. He feels that one of the reasons there has been a breakdown in the family and a breakdown of morality is that there has been a huge decline in respect for authority. And he blames my generation for that. Again, it was double-edged. In some ways, it was good. The authority figures of that era did not deserve to be respected, did not deserve to be obeyed. It was an accomplishment, a victory for my generation, that those people were exposed and defied. But the downside of that is that it led to a much more widespread and pervasive cynicism that had the effect of undermining all authority, and a society cannot function without institutions of authority and figures of authority. I would attend to agree with the premise of the question that that disrespect, that derogation of authority has continued, and it has had a very corrosive effect on the fabric of our society. It is really broken down its cohesiveness. It is very hard for government and corporate figures to command respect. And I think that is one reason why so many corporations are being run by groups now, are being run by a committee, being run by committees and boards and are less hierarchical. There is much more emphasis on decision-making by consensus, and there are advantages and disadvantages to that. One of the advantages of having a paternalistic authority figure is that a person often has a very powerful vision and is able to implement that vision quickly and efficiently. A corporation that has a person like that at the helm often gets a huge head start and is able to capitalize on things much more quickly and dynamically. The downside, of course, is that those people are often ... What is the word? Just bear with me for a second. I will get it. Well, they are authoritarian, that goes without saying, but the word I am thinking about is despotic. They are despots and dictators often, and that management stock can backfire. When they are gone, oftentimes the company flounders, is left at loose ends because there is a power vacuum or a leadership vacuum. But we are getting a little bit off the track there. But to go back to your question, I do think that it continues, and I do think it is a problem. Often, without trying to, I think that the baby boomers impart that attitude to their progeny, without doing so explicitly. I think just their general attitude about politicians and government figures. It is like a...
SM (00:21:21):
What you are saying is that the kids oftentimes just pick it up, not by sitting down at the supper table and saying, "This is the way it is," but it's just the way they live their lives?
AC (00:21:36):
Yeah. It is so saturated in our culture now. Every public figure ends up getting lampooned and parodied. It is almost like we have this Saturday Night Live ethos where anybody who comes to the fore ends up in an SNL skit, being mercilessly lampooned, à la Ross Perot.
SM (00:22:04):
I think that in many respects, what young people today see as an impact from the boomers is that "I do not want to become a leader. Because if I do become a leader, I will be critiqued and criticized."
AC (00:22:08):
Ridiculed.
SM (00:22:08):
"Ridiculed. They will try to find the weaknesses in me, as opposed to my strengths."
AC (00:22:30):
Yeah. Yeah. I am not sure you can pin that only on the baby boomer. There are so many factors that are involved there. The media have certainly changed the way they report and cover people and what they consider to be fair game. You really almost have to be insane, I think, to run for public office today, because the scrutiny is so intense. And there are no holds barred. You basically give up all vestiges of privacy. Your life is totally exposed and as you said, you are subject to that kind of criticism, constant criticism and ridicule. I would think that a lot of young people are discouraged by the price of public service. I would call it the price of public service in the post-Vietnam, post-Watergate era. Again, that is more fallout, I think, from my generation. There was a book written a couple of years ago called Scandal, by the wife of Nixon's ... Suzanne Garment, G-A-R-M-E-N-T.
SM (00:23:40):
Yeah, I read it.
AC (00:23:40):
That was supremacy. The nature of the press and the nature of political coverage changed as a result of an influx of baby boomers, as a result of an influx of people who grew up during Vietnam and Watergate and had a very cynical attitude toward authority figures and towards power in general, and powerful people and specific. This had led to this scandal mongering, this almost pathological obsession with finding the skeletons and the smoking guns and the dirty secrets that every politician, ipso facto, harbors or hides. The premise of her book was that this is basically resolved in the paralysis of government. Anytime we have a new political figure, somebody starts digging up all this dirt. And then we have this endless round of hearings and congressional investigations, à la Whitewater, which prevents people from governing and moving the ball ahead, just tackling the real problems of America.
SM (00:24:56):
It is almost like whenever a new president comes in, his theme song [inaudible]. The beat goes on, this humming tune.
AC (00:25:03):
Yeah, exactly.
SM (00:25:03):
Continue.
AC (00:25:06):
But I look at the newscast and I see all these people, these mobs of people at these congressional hearings on Whitewater. All these reporters, all these intelligent people using their brains for this, all these Congressmen digging up all this crap, and all these special grand juries and all these lawyers and lobbyists, and I think, what a waste of manpower. What a waste of brain power. Let us take these people and fix the healthcare system, figure out how to provide decent housing to people. Let us tackle some of our environmental problems. Do not waste your time on all this junk.
SM (00:25:36):
Well, I feel like asking a question here, and if you can, give me some brief responses, just some adjectives to describe it.
AC (00:25:37):
Sure.
SM (00:25:43):
If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, I think the early 70s, please describe the qualities you most admire. And please describe those adjectives, or the sentences, to describe five or six apiece, the good things, the bad things.
AC (00:26:02):
And the bad things.
SM (00:26:02):
Which I hate doing, by the way. Still running?
AC (00:26:02):
Still running.
SM (00:26:02):
Great.
AC (00:26:03):
Well, I guess the good things about the generation was that it was idealistic. It was energetic. It was passionate. It was committed. It was persevering. It was hopeful. It was positive in the sense of being able to envision. Visionary. Visionary and positive in the sense of being able to envision a better world, and entertaining the illusion that we could make a difference, that we could realize that better world, we could bring that better world into being. That is pretty much what I would say on the positive side.
SM (00:26:43):
How about the negative?
AC (00:26:43):
On the negative side, again, repeating what I said earlier, I think that it was hypocritical. It was phony. It was cynical. It was self-serving, self-absorbed, hedonistic, selfish, very short attention span, very little grasp of history, conceited, unrealistic, spoiled. Was that enough?
SM (00:27:20):
That is, it.
AC (00:27:23):
Okay. I could go on, but you get the picture.
SM (00:27:26):
Okay. I think you have already answered this. Could you comment on the importance of the boomers' perspective of the Vietnam War? Well, you discussed that.
AC (00:27:35):
I think so. Yeah. You see, I think a lot of the boomers really benefited from the fact that they had the material abundance and prosperity and affluence to afford to worry about self-fulfillment and self-realization and liberation. All these liberation movements can only take place in a society where people's basic needs are taken care of. It is really a symptom of abundance, a symptom of affluence and bountifulness. The baby boom generation is, I use the word spoiled because they really were spoiled. Many of them were the progeny of parents who worked their butts off during the depression and who were determined to give their children everything that they were denied and did not have. They really had the luxury. It was really a luxury to be able to worry about making a better world, and to protest efficiencies in American's design.
SM (00:28:38):
You make a good point, but there is a couple questions here that might challenge that. Number one is that in the civil rights movement, there were a lot of people that went down South. Freedom Summer of (19)64, they were predominant. Actually, most of them were actually Jewish that went down South to work with some of the young and upcoming African-Americans. Some of those young leaders like John Lewis, who is still a Congressman in Washington today, they came from different backgrounds. Many of the people involved in the civil rights movement especially were poor Blacks. Fannie Lou Hamer came out. She was not a young person. You say that there is no question that there was time for many people to be involved, like today's college students have no time because they got to work, they go to school. Whereas these students worked when I was in college. But you still had many poor people at that time getting involved in the civil rights movement.
AC (00:29:31):
Yeah. I think the civil rights movement is a little bit different from what I witnessed. I did not participate in the civil rights movement. It came a little bit before my time. I was only 12 or 13 years old in those years, so my perspective is skewed or warped, or whatever word you want to use by what I, in fact, witnessed, which was basically the anti-war movement on campus in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s.
SM (00:30:00):
Then you also had the fact that a lot of the people that went-
AC (00:30:03):
And I went to an Ivy League School.
AC (00:30:03):
... (19)70s.
SM (00:30:03):
Then you also have the fact that a lot of the people went to-
AC (00:30:03):
And I went to an Ivy League school, so I was dealing with upper middle-class kids. That is what I saw. Princeton and Columbia. So again, that skews my perspective. It was not... I did not see... I think it was a real class thing. It was not a working-class thing; it was an upper middle-class college educated thing. The working-class kids were getting sent over to Vietnam, they were the ones who were coming back in caskets. They did not have the luxury of protesting the Vietnam War. They did not have the wherewithal; they did not have political connections. They did not have the student deferments. They just went.
SM (00:30:41):
And they did not have the knowledge of how to get out.
AC (00:30:43):
No, they did not.
SM (00:30:43):
But many of the middle-class kids did.
AC (00:30:43):
Exactly.
SM (00:30:47):
And probably many of them would have taken advantage of that if they knew how.
AC (00:30:51):
If they knew how, sure they would have. But they did not have the connections. They were not privileged. They did not have the privileges, that is really the word.
SM (00:31:01):
Number seven here. Have you changed your opinion of the youth of the (19)60s over the last 25 years?
AC (00:31:12):
The question was- have I changed my opinion of the youth of the (19)60s in the last 25 years?
SM (00:31:16):
And when you were a college student, you have already revealed some of the things you felt then, and you have already been very open about how you feel today. But have you been pretty steady in your feelings? Or has there been something that has changed it, or mellowed?
AC (00:31:29):
I think basically my feelings about the generation are the same. I mean, as I said, one of the things...
(00:31:39):
I have always been this way, maybe that is why I ended up being a journalist, is that I have always been something of an outsider. And I have always had the ability to see the discrepancy between image and reality, or appearance and reality. I have always been sensitive to that, the way things appear, and the way things are. I went to a private school called Episcopal Academy and the motto is Esse Quam Videri. V-I-D-E-R-I. Essa, E-S-S-E. Quam, Q-U-A-M. Videri, V-I-D-E-R-I. And that means to be rather than to seem to be. And so, I have always been attuned to that. So back in the (19)60s, I was very aware, as I said earlier, of the phoniness, and the hypocrisy, and the double standards, and the moral and ethical contradictions of the student protest movement and the anti-war movement. And a lot of these drug and sexual liberationists. And I have basically retained that attitude. I have retained the feeling that the generation did do some good things, but the generation also had lots of flaws and shortcomings. And I do not think it deserves to be deified, or canonized, or sanctified, or mythologized the way it has been in some quarters. And I always make that point. And I think a continuation of that is what you saw at the Academy of Awards when Tom Hanks got up there and accepted the award for Philadelphia and talked about gays being angels in our streets. Give me a break. I mean, this glorification of the latest sort of liberation movement of homosexuals being somehow saints. Not only are they martyrs, the victims of AIDS, they are martyrs, they are saints. It is the same kind of conceit of our generation that we are special, and that anything that we embrace or do is somehow holy. It is not holy. I mean, it is great to tolerate homosexuals. It is great to... But it is not necessary to glorify them.
SM (00:34:04):
How would you define this? And this is getting off this question for a bit. Strictly, Ray, what you are saying right now. And that is, one of the terms that really turns young people off today is the term do-gooder. And so even when the students that I work with get involved with Habitat for Humanity, they feel a little sensitive. That they are feeling good about something, they're helping others. And then when they feel good about helping others, they say, "Should I feel this way?" And this gets right back to the people from the (19)60s, because I thought... Again, this is only me. I went to a state university, SUNY Binghamton. Which is also a very good school, most of the kids are from Syracuse and New York City. And a lot of them could have gone to an Ivy League school but did not have money, so they went to SUNY Binghamton. But they were also middle class, they had all the time to protest, all had time to get involved in these activities. But I always, from afar, thought that a lot of these young people were doing it out of the goodness of their heart. They cared about the issues, they truly cared. And I guess what I am getting at is the sincerity. You said here that you felt that a lot of the boomers were not sincere, and certainly there were many cases of that. But I feel that a lot of boomers today are still living their lives like they lived at that time, but it is not kosher to be the way they were back in the (19)60s today. And that is to care about the minority, to care about the environment. And the fact is today that all the time, whether it be the Christian Coalition with Ralph Reed who has come to prominence representing Pat Robertson, or the Republicans in Congress who you hear all the time, even some of the Democrats, even moderate Democrats, the old Democrats from the South now really vote like Republicans. Is that the problems with society today is all going back to that time, they are pointing fingers. It is always someone else's causing the problem, they never look at themselves. So, the question I am really getting to you about is, is it really fair to look at the boomers in a way that all the problems in society today are related to them?
AC (00:36:25):
No, I do not think you can do that, I do not think you can blame everything on the boomers by any means. I just think that it is very problematic, whether we improve things or made things worse. I mean, to me, that question is still not answered. And I think that people who say that my generation screwed things up have a case to some extent. And you were talking about do good-ism being somewhat out of fashion. Well, my feeling is that to some extent that fashion has always been determined by my generation, just because it is so sizable and influential. And one of the things I wanted to point out about my generation is I feel it has been very morally plastic. And that is what I was trying to hint at when I talked about being opportunistic, because it was a generation that rejected the materialism and the status seeking of its parents. Back in the (19)60s, there was this nostalgie de la boue, that French term, that it is a nostalgia for the mud. And so, the whole Woodstock idea of becoming a peasant again, and frolicking in the mud, and skinny-dipping, and free love, and free sex, and all that junk, and communes. And there was this whole idea that this generation had renounced that materialism. But during the (19)80s, who were the people who spearheaded the age of greed? Who were the people? Who were the Gordon Gecko type people? Who were the people flocking to make a killing as investment bankers? They were baby boomers. Suddenly that became the chic thing to do, get ahead. It was no longer chic to sort of drop acid and tune in and drop out, or whatever they were doing. It was chic to make your killing, to become an arbitrager, and to arrange those leverage buyouts. And I remember bumping into kids who were big SDS long-haired radicals on the [inaudible] local, in their pin striped suits and they are suddenly clean cut, toting the Wall Street Journal. And I was astonished by the flip-flop. I mean, I feel like I was more true to the (19)60s since that, well, I did not embrace it wholeheartedly. I went into journalism, which is sort of a do-gooder profession mean. I mean, it is a profession where you feel like you can have a chance to make a difference and help and to teach. And I did not do this complete flip-flop sellout like a lot of these people did. So, it is unfashionable, because all those erstwhile do-gooder hippie liberal types are now driving Volvos and living on the main line. And they have shifted their energy into other channels which are more meaningful for them. And they have become more conservative, which is a natural thing that happens to people as they get older, because they suddenly realize that a lot of the stuff that they thought was restrictive and stupid and non-liberated and non-progressive makes sense. It holds society together. It is a good thing for parents, for couples to stay married. Divorce is not a good thing for kids, it wrecks up families. And families are good things. Not only for the individual kids involved, but also for society. I mean, of the basic unit of society we need to stabilize the society, you need to stabilize the family. Witness the complete social chaos in the ghettos in the city, where you have no fathers involved and you have single mothers trying to raise five or six kids.
SM (00:40:01):
And yet when you talk about this too, there are many boomers... I do not say now the boomers control higher education, because they are the liberals that control what is going on in schools.
AC (00:40:15):
Well, you have all that insanity of political correctness and diversity training and all that. That is a bad thing.
SM (00:40:21):
But the thing is that anyone who is teaching, anyone in social work, many lawyers did go into law not to make money but to help others. So, with every attack, there are other stories of people really that still are living community [inaudible], from my perspective. Because teachers, to me, are very underpaid. And they went in hopefully not to money, but to teach.
AC (00:40:49):
Do you think they are still underpaid?
SM (00:40:50):
A lot of people in higher education... You do not make money as a professor or an administrator [inaudible].
AC (00:40:57):
Do you think teachers are underpaid? I mean, the Council Rock School District, they are making 70,000, 80,000 a year, which is more than I make for nine months of teaching. I do not know, it is hard for me to work up a lot of sympathy for teachers anymore.
SM (00:41:07):
Well, a lot of teachers in the US are getting paid $25,000.
AC (00:41:07):
Still?
SM (00:41:08):
Yeah. And then still [inaudible] a lot of the schools around here. But on average, I think they are probably about on average 35,000, I think. That is still good, I think, because a lot of them are underpaid. And then they reach a [inaudible] they cannot get paid any higher than that. And I know professors in the university are not paid much. 30,000 for assistant professors, and associate professors get around 45,000. And I am not quite sure what full professors get, but they reach a max and they cannot get any higher.
AC (00:41:48):
Is that right?
SM (00:41:48):
Because of tenure, and that is it.
AC (00:41:48):
Well, some of these fancy colleges, they are making big bucks, some of the professors. I mean, at Princeton, I mean, they are getting full professors make at least 90. But they are all doing outside consulting. And, I mean, some of those guys are hauling in 400,000 or 500,000 a year. And not doing any teaching, they have graduate teaching assistants. I mean, that is a scam, but that is a separate thing.
SM (00:42:10):
Yeah. Would you describe, and this is just yes or no answer, would you describe the boomers as the most unique generation in American history?
AC (00:42:20):
Well, I think I would have to defer to Senator McCarthy on that one, I do not think I have enough knowledge to say one way or the other. I think it was a unique generation, just because of its size and because of the social conditions at the time that it matured and came to the fore. I mean, again, some of the things I talked about, the affluence, the privilege of being able to worry about larger problems, not worrying about how they are going to feed themselves and house themselves. And the fact that so many of them were products of college. I mean, it was a huge one. Another thing that made it possible was that these kids had a lot of time on their hands. They were in college, and instead of drinking beer and I guess lighting bonfires and going to pep rallies, they were trying to shut down the Institute for Defense Analysis or whatever. But again, they had the privilege and luxury of time before they became adults.
SM (00:43:28):
As a boomer, if you were to list five events that had the greatest impact on you as a boomer?
AC (00:43:31):
As a boomer? Well, I think the assassination of President Kennedy certainly had a huge impact on my perspective. I guess the things that everybody says in terms of zeitgeist events, I guess Robert Kennedy, assassination of him, Martin Luther King, his assassination, only because they brought things into such sharp focus. And the lunar landing was an interesting thing. I mean, it had a kind of double-edged effect. In one way, it was both the beginning and the end of a sense of possibility. It showed us the miraculous and amazing things that we could accomplish by harnessing technology and by setting our will to something. But at the same time, it was sort of the symbolic end of the space program, to me. It was sort of like the end of that frontier. We had done about as much as we could feasibly do. I mean, that was such a single achievement and such a millennial kind of accomplishment. And I think there was a great sense of letdown after that, a kind of postpartum depression that we'd done it. And now what? And I really do not think the space programs recovered. The space shuttles just do not have the glamour. And sending probes to Mars, it is not the same as putting a man on the moon. So that was another thing, another event. And obviously the Vietnam War. Although I at the time, again, was not real passionate about that one way or the other. I mean, I was more curious and listening, trying to figure out who was right. And then Watergate, I think, was a very searing kind of experience, because it really cemented the idea that you cannot trust anyone over 30, or the idea that our parents are flawed. It was a very kind of edible sort of experience, that these people that you were brought up to respect and honor and believe can betray you, can tell lies. And it was also very influential in that, in a sense, we have pulled daddy off the pedestal. I mean when Nixon resigned, it was like the kids succeeded in punishing this great father figure, this parent figure, who had betrayed them or had deceived them.
SM (00:46:58):
Those are very good points. When I was a [inaudible] understand, one thing that struck me is we had Fred Thompson in our campus at Ohio University in 19... Did that thing click off? Is it still moving okay?
AC (00:47:15):
Yep, still moving.
SM (00:47:16):
We [inaudible] to our campus in (19)74 before the final decision was made on Watergate. And he was our Kennedy lecturer at Ohio University. And I had a chance to be with him for a solid day, stayed overnight, for a solid day. And we took him to Sherman's home in Lancaster, Ohio, this little branch campus of our university. But what I am getting at here is that I had very tremendous distrust of leaders. And he was on the committee and the minority council, the youngest member of the committee. And when I took him back to the airport, I was going to do my test with Fred Thompson. And I asked him, and I let him off at the airport, I said, "You send me a letterhead with all the signatures of the members of the Watergate Committee." And he said he would do it. Well, okay, this is my test, because I thought he would not do it. And [inaudible] and will not follow through. So, I waited a month, two months, got involved in orientation. It was very late summer as we were heading into the fall, I finally get this envelope in the mail. And when I saw and opened it, I flipped. And my attitude was, "I cannot believe it, here is a leader that followed through." With all the activities that he had. It was a signed letterhead and it was all the real signatures, with different color rings. And he said, "Please rest assured, Steve, that the workers of the government are always slow." And from that day forward I have always had tremendous respect for Fred Thompson. Now he is a senator from Tennessee.
AC (00:48:43):
What a great souvenir of that era.
SM (00:48:45):
Yeah. And I have it, it is in a safety deposit box. And I got a letter from him. And actually, I am going to interview him for this. He is up for reelection. And I am going to interview him next February, I think, after the election is over.
AC (00:48:58):
That is great.
SM (00:49:00):
Because he is a very important person. That is a story that there are good people there. And I am a democrat, but I have tremendous respect for Fred Thompson.
AC (00:49:05):
Is he a Republican?
SM (00:49:06):
He is a Republican. Watch out for him. People are talking about who is going to be the presidential candidate of the year 2000. My prediction is Fred Thompson will be the Republican at that time. He is only 53 now. He was only 33 when he was on the committee. So, he is 54, I think. And watch out for him. And he is very close to Senator Baker, he ran his campaign. He is a good guy.
AC (00:49:29):
Good.
SM (00:49:30):
It has often been quoted that only 15 percent of the boomers were truly activists or involved in some sort of activity linked to the civil rights, Vietnam War protest, women's movement, gay and lesbian movement, environmental movement, and active overall in politics and the issues of the day. Is this true? Or is this another way to lessen the impact this group has had on America since the (19)60s?
AC (00:49:53):
Well, I cannot say whether it is true, whether that number's exactly right. But I would tend to concur with the notion that the people who were really on the front lines were a rather small minority of the generation at large. And the rest were just sort of fellow travelers and what I used to call weekend radicals, who did it because it was sort of fun, and the mode, the thing to do, is fashionable. And you sort of had to do it if you wanted to score with chicks and be part of the scene, part of the action. You wore bell bottoms and... I mean, even I wore a running jersey. I was a big jock in college, but I wore a running jersey with a clenched student strike red fist on the back, just because it was kind of cool looking. And I went to one of the marches in Washington, not because of any great political fervor or resolve to change the world or stop the war, but because I knew that there was a pretty good chance that there would be some topless women there cavorting in the reflecting pool. And sure enough, there were. So that was the only reason I went. And I suspect there were a lot more like me.
SM (00:51:11):
Good analysis there. We took students over to High University back at the remembrance ceremonies at Kent State after the killings that [inaudible] there two years in a row. And it was basically to listen to some of the national leaders at that time, like Jane Fonda, Tom [inaudible], those remembrances. But it was very obvious that the majority of the people were just having a good time, were not really serious. There were some darn serious ones, well students I brought were dead serious. They would not have come with me if they were not. But you hit it right in the point, that I think that 50 percent is pretty accurate.
AC (00:51:46):
I think it is. I think it is. It is probably true of almost all movements. It was party time, that is all.
SM (00:51:54):
This is a very important one, because when you look at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, the reason why Jan Scruggs put that together is to create a non-political entity in remembrance of those who served and those who paid the ultimate price with their death. So, his goal was to try to heal the nation, and to try specifically with Vietnam veterans and their families. This question, do you feel that the boomers are a generation that is still having problems with the [inaudible]? The Vietnam Veterans Memorial did a great job with veterans, and in some respect the families of veterans. But do you feel that healing has really taken place in large numbers? And there is a follow-up to that, do you feel that some of the tremendous divisions, and the lack of dialogue between people, and the uncivil language that we see today is directly linked to that, the ability to heal?
AC (00:52:51):
Yeah, I think that is a factor to some extent. I mean, I think that there are certain things from which we have not recovered completely and that the scabs are still fresh. I guess Vietnam would be one of them, and Watergate might be another. In the sense that it led to this very cynical... Sense of cynical, pervasive sense of disillusionment. But I think another aspect of it too is that we not only mistrust others, we not only mistrust authority figures, we mistrust ourselves. Because a lot of us realize, again, how phony, and hypocritical and theatrical so much of it was. And there is a lot of class resentment involved too. And there is a sort of internal... And when you talk about the baby boomers, if you are talking about all the people born between 1946 and 1964, you are talking about a huge group of people. There is almost another generation in that span. And you are also talking about people of all different socioeconomic classes. And a lot of the things that are attributed to the baby boomers, again, are attributed to a very small group of privileged, white middle class kids who went to college. They are the kids who got all the ink, and got all the attention, and got mowed down at Kent State. You are not talking about the kids that went right from high school to factories, went to the [inaudible] works in Bucks County, or went to Vietnam and got maimed and then ended up in a veteran's hospital somewhere. And so, I think that there is still residual class antagonism. There is a disdain, a kind of supercilious disdain on the part of the middle-class kids who kind of conned the system, who got the student deferments, and got their graduate degrees, and did the yuppy thing in the (19)80s. And looked down on those other kids, their peers, the lumpen proletariat, the kids who went to Altamont not Woodstock. Looked down upon them as schmucks and suckers because they did not have the strings, they did not know how to pull. And then the kids at the bottom, the kids who actually came back in the body bags, who did not have the luxury, did not have the time to protest, and all that, I think resent the other ones, again, for their phoniness and hypocrisy and their moral plasticity. The fact that they were able to mold themselves to fit any kind of contingency and opportunity as the zeitgeist shifted. Does that sound cynical enough?
SM (00:55:22):
Yeah. And [inaudible] here all the time. I have been to several Vietnam [inaudible] on Memorial Day, and the dislike for Bill Clinton is real. The lack of forgiveness, they do not want to ever forgive him. And I find it ironic, and I have said this to everyone, that this law was supposed to heal. Yet we see veterans there who have not healed. And they will make commentary on Jane Fonda, "Bitch," still hate her. Bill Clinton, they will not forgive him. And certainly, even with Peter Arnett this past year, there is some of the media people they will not forgive, because they brought the stories home about Vietnam veterans, and maybe some of the bad things about Vietnam veterans in linkage with the good. So, there is something about the Halberstams, the Arnetts, the Sheehans, that there is dislike toward them. So, I am wondering about this for you.
AC (00:56:13):
Well, that is part of... Yeah, I do not think it is happening. And I think that in some ways... There is this expression that the Irish are good haters. And I think to some extent Americans are good haters. And in some ways the rancor continues to fester and to become more gangrenous as time goes on. It is not healing, it is getting worse. And it is becoming, in some ways, more irrational. I mean, blaming the David Halberstams and the Neil Sheehans for Vietnam, I think, is irrational. It's another case of blaming the messenger.
SM (00:56:50):
And I never thought of that until I heard these four veterans sitting in the front row who were thinking about [inaudible 00:56:58]. Well, Peter Arnett had done a favor, because I guess he was over in someplace in Europe, and he flew in just to give us less than five minutes speech for Jan Scruggs. And I said, "That is tremendous commitment to the Vietnam Memorial." "Now, who wants to listen to him? He is the guy that wrote about us."
AC (00:57:09):
Mm-hm.
SM (00:57:14):
And that was just a commentary from four veterans. But I just thought, "My god..." There is lack of healing in that, was very obvious." Only four, but I am wondering if that permeates throughout.
AC (00:57:24):
Well, you mentioned Bill Clinton being despised by these people. I think he is the perfect symbol of exactly what I was talking about. A guy who conned the system, who did what was necessary to save his own butt and to promote his own welfare and career. And who was in many ways a phony and a hypocrite. I mean, I will probably vote for him again, just because I think he is a lesser of two evils when posed against Bob Dole. But I think he is a sleaze ball, a total sleaze ball. And every time I see him, I think he is an actor. I mean, I think he is just a real consummate face man actor. And I think that a lot of people resent him for that. I mean, he really is a wonderful avatar or embodiment of what we have been talking about, the kind of schizophrenia of this generation. I mean, he is a very... Cosmically, ideologically, philosophically, he is very appealing. He stands for the right things; he fights for the right things. He has a heart, seemingly. But on an individual personal level, I think he is very cynical. I think he is very manipulative. I think he is very selfish. And I think he is very untrustworthy.
SM (00:58:38):
What are your thoughts on former left leaders who state that their past activities and those of their peers had more negative [inaudible], particularly to the people of the Horowitz and [inaudible], to the people that were pro the [inaudible]. But they are just the tip of the iceberg of former left leaders who now have [inaudible], and now are blasting their whole past. And what are your thoughts on them, both types of people?
AC (00:59:04):
Well, I guess my feelings are mixed on... I am not real familiar with what they say specifically. But just based on your report, I would probably be sympathetic to some of their critiques, some of their attacks in their broadsides, because it sounds like it would jibe with some of the stuff I have been saying. But I am always, I guess, amused and aggravated by people who renounce their past when it is convenient to do so. Fitzgerald said, "There are not any second acts in American life," but clearly there are people who feel... A lot of lefties. You know it is, again, another example of the moral plasticity of my generation, that they kind of reinvent themselves every decade, whatever seems to be fashionable. And when conservatism is [inaudible]-
AC (01:00:03):
... whatever seems to be fashionable, and when conservatism is fashionable, suddenly, they are conservative and they are repudiating their past and everything that they stood for, because this is a way to get it on now.
SM (01:00:14):
How do you feel about those boomers, though, that were on the front lines, who have lived their whole lives like they were on the front lines, and have not deferred?
AC (01:00:23):
Have not changed?
SM (01:00:27):
Have not changed. In other words, they were not [inaudible].
AC (01:00:30):
They have not compromised.
SM (01:00:30):
They have not compromised. They have lived their whole lives [inaudible].
AC (01:00:34):
To some extent, even though, I may not agree with what they are doing or I think they are excessive or extreme or myopic or monomaniacal, I have more respect for those people, for their consistency and for their philosophical and ideological fidelity than I do the ones who have flipped flopped every decade to [inaudible]. We are shaded by this tree, thankfully.
SM (01:01:02):
It is a great tree.
AC (01:01:03):
Yeah. It is a wonderful old sycamore. Unfortunately, it just drops stuff all the time, twigs, the bark, leaves, and it is not a good tree to have over a swimming pool.
SM (01:01:12):
This is a question where I ask ... I just mention a name and I just want you to [inaudible].
AC (01:01:20):
Okay. We are off the air here. Oh, no. It is still going.
SM (01:01:21):
It is still going.
AC (01:01:23):
Yeah.
SM (01:01:23):
Are you supposed to be on there?
AC (01:01:25):
I guess it must be.
SM (01:01:26):
Yeah. I got ... We have [inaudible].
AC (01:01:29):
Okay.
SM (01:01:29):
If you were to try to place the following names in the minds of [inaudible], what overall reaction would you foresee for the following names? You are a boomer, so when you respond to this, your initial gut-level response to this as an individual and what you feel today [inaudible]. Number one, Tom Hayden.
AC (01:01:48):
You want me to give my personal reaction or the reaction of the ... My presumed reaction of the...
SM (01:01:52):
Your personal reaction, plus how you feel today's boomers look to these people.
AC (01:02:03):
My personal reaction is I dislike the guy. I suspect that a lot of my peers in the baby boomers are suspicious of him, because he seems like, again, one of these...
SM (01:02:11):
[inaudible].
AC (01:02:11):
Yup.
SM (01:02:26):
Okay. We were talking about Tom Hayden.
AC (01:02:28):
Yeah. Tom Hayden, I think I finished up on him.
SM (01:02:31):
The next one is Lyndon Johnson.
AC (01:02:36):
Well, Lyndon Johnson is just a fascinating figure to me, because in some ways, he embodies so much of America, both its generosity and its good instincts and its tragic self-defeating flaws. Having read some of Robert Caro's work on Johnson, I just find him to be a fascinating American phenomenon. That is all I could say about him I think.
SM (01:03:09):
I want to mention that when I interviewed Senator McCarthy, he said that when you are in Washington, DC and you are going to the airport, there is a statue of Lyndon Johnson on the way to the airport and [inaudible] it is not done. It is an incomplete work.
AC (01:03:24):
Is that right?
SM (01:03:30):
He said ... That is what he said, Johnson was an incomplete work.
AC (01:03:31):
Right.
SM (01:03:31):
Because, in fact, he could have [inaudible] secretary. Bobby Kennedy.
AC (01:03:33):
Yeah. I think there was a lot of possibility for redemption there and, I mean, I think there was a man who was really growing and if he had had more time, I think he might have really ... He might have been great in the sense that he grew and overcame previous earlier limits and mistakes. Robert Kennedy? I guess I sort of regarded him as being inspiring and idealistic and scrappy, pugnacious. I think he would have been fun to watch. I am sorry that he got snuffed out so soon. I have very mixed feelings about the Kennedys, and I admired them, I almost worshiped them when I was younger. Now I have a much more realistic attitude toward them. But, again, I think that there was great possibility for growth with both of those guys, both John and Robert.
SM (01:04:37):
Yeah. I put John on there too, because he is on the list.
AC (01:04:39):
It would be interesting, and it is interesting to speculate how the course of American history would have differed if Kennedy had not been assassinated, if he had had a second term and, I mean, one of those people ... You ask me about seminal events or high impact events, baby boom generation, his assassination I think seared everybody and really ended that wonderful kind of buoyant American sense of hope and optimism.
SM (01:05:15):
The one question always comes up would the Vietnam War have ever happened if he had been president? [inaudible] you cannot judge what may have happened.
AC (01:05:24):
Right.
SM (01:05:24):
[inaudible].
AC (01:05:24):
Right.
SM (01:05:26):
We do not know. Huey Newton?
AC (01:05:29):
He is a phony. I went to a ... He spoke at Princeton and Pat [inaudible] Cage, which is our big gymnasium, back in 1970 or (19)71 and I went to listen to him, because I wanted to find out what is this guy all about. It was just a lot of gobbledygook. It was garbage. It did not make sense. People finally ... People had the guts to stand up and walk out. I stuck it out, because I wanted to give this guy as much of a chance as possible, but it was just ... He was just a lot of hyped-up propaganda.
SM (01:06:10):
[inaudible] Bobby Seale category? Bobby Seale and Eldridge Cleaver, they were all in the Black Panthers.
AC (01:06:12):
Well, I do not know as much about Bobby Seale and Eldridge Cleaver. The only reason I react so strongly to Huey Newton is that I actually saw him and listened to him, his harangue for two hours, and it was incoherent gibberish.
SM (01:06:29):
Brings up two more, Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin.
AC (01:06:34):
I think of them as, basically, as flamers. You know what a flamer is?
SM (01:06:42):
A flamer?
AC (01:06:44):
A flamer is...
SM (01:06:45):
Create problems or trouble?
AC (01:06:47):
No. A flamer is sort of a hot dog. Sort of a ... They were just self-aggrandizing, very theatrical ... How shall I say? [inaudible] sort of like the court jesters or radical chic.
SM (01:07:11):
Yeah. As they aged, Jerry Rubin went off to ... He was kind of a hypocrite to the cause.
AC (01:07:17):
Oh, yeah. He sold out completely.
SM (01:07:18):
He sold out and Abbie Hoffman ... It is almost like the theatrics of his early years destroyed the validity of it, the activism in his later years.
AC (01:07:26):
Yes.
SM (01:07:27):
To save the Hudson River.
AC (01:07:28):
Right.
SM (01:07:28):
He was dead-serious about that. One of the tragedies too was that Abbie Hoffman, when he died, I remember the year when he died over in Bucks County.
AC (01:07:35):
Bucks County.
SM (01:07:37):
$2000 in the bank and that is all he had.
AC (01:07:40):
Right.
SM (01:07:40):
They said he was fighting depression at that time and that no one was listening to him anymore.
AC (01:07:45):
Right. He had become a caricature of himself.
SM (01:07:49):
Is that the legacy of the boomers? That no one is listening to them anymore. Is he a symbol of all boomers as they age with respect to the upcoming generation, the future generation?
AC (01:08:01):
I think in some ways, he is. He is a symbol to the extent that he did not seem capable of coping with real life. He never grew up in some respects. He was not able to translate apparently that sort of youthful, in-your-face, confrontational activism into a more mature effective activism, where you actually achieve results, you actually get things done, you actually persuade people, you actually ... I mean, to me, that is effective activism and it is one thing to carry signs and co-opt the media and make a big name for yourself. It is another to actually solve the problem, and I think that there are lots of people who are very activist, who you have never heard of, who worked behind the scenes and do the research and gather the facts and have meetings at which they are civil and polite and they learned how to accomplish things through the system, and I do not think he made that transition. Evidently, he did not make that transition. The other guys, Eldridge Cleaver and his cookbook and...
SM (01:09:19):
Bobby Seale's [inaudible].
AC (01:09:19):
... cookbook and I do not know what Eldridge Cleaver is doing, but all those guys seem to have sold out and they did the flip flops that were necessary to survive or to keep the con going, and I think they are symbols of the generation, very valid symbols of the generation and, again, its small plasticity, to get back to that again, the fact that we are able to mold ourselves to whatever situation or set of circumstances would work in our best self-interest.
SM (01:09:51):
Timothy Leary, I think I know your answer.
AC (01:09:57):
I think he was an evil person. I think he was an evil person, because he gave the drug culture kind of intellectual respectability. I do not think ... It would be a waste of my breath and your time for me to talk about all the evils and tragedy that has flowed from the drug culture.
SM (01:10:23):
How about Dr. Spock?
AC (01:10:24):
I really do not feel like I know enough about him and have sort of a full sense of him to comment. I know a lot of people blame him for the permissiveness of the baby boom generation, and perhaps he should be held accountable for some of that, but I think that is very simplistic. I think there is more to him and more to his influence than that, and I do not know enough about him to say.
SM (01:10:46):
How about the Berrigan Brothers?
AC (01:10:47):
I think that those guys were very passionate and committed about stopping the war. There is a sense of mild development and growth there. I think that those guys were the real thing. Again, I have not followed their histories real closely but I think they are true people.
SM (01:11:20):
Yeah. A good point is Dr. King, when he used to ... That is the next person I am going to [inaudible] prophesied that some people would be upset when they had to go to jail. He says, if you are not willing to go out and march and be arrested, then do not go out and march, if you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs or pay the price for your beliefs, and the Berrigans did, whether you liked what they did or not, they knew that they would be penalized for it. Dr. King?
AC (01:11:43):
I just think he is a great hero, a great hero of our time. I mean, I am familiar with all of his human foibles and all of the revisionist stuff that is come out about him, about how he did some plagiarizing apparently, and had a weakness for white women and was not exactly the most faithful husband but he was a human being. I mean, in terms of what he did for the social justice and civil rights and African Americans, giving them a place, their rightful place in American society, I think he was wonderful. I think his message still resonates. [inaudible]. Yeah.
SM (01:12:28):
Okay.
AC (01:12:29):
I think, again, he was the real thing in terms of his passion and commitment to his cause. I am astonished to think that he made that ... I did a little magazine piece during the last presidential election and I was astonished that Martin Luther King was only 34 years old when he delivered the I Have A Dream speech.
SM (01:12:52):
Isn't that amazing? It was all off his head. Daniel Ellsberg?
AC (01:13:02):
I guess he is a hero of sorts, in that he acted on his convictions, and was instrumental in exposing the folly and duplicity of the Vietnam War through the Pentagon Papers, so I guess he deserves credit for that. He seems like the real thing.
SM (01:13:22):
George Wallace?
AC (01:13:25):
Another figure like Lyndon Johnson, to me. Another man who is very American, very American, embodied a lot of American traits and qualities and history and evolution and I think that he would have been interesting to watch, if he had continued to be active on the political stage, because I think there was a man who had great capacity for change and growth and, in some ways, was an emblem of America. Being a fierce segregationist, to becoming a much more ... Almost a statesman-like figure at the end, a person who evoked sympathy, even among Blacks, who detested him as a symbol of racism at one point. You know, he reminds me of ... He is like Lyndon Johnson. He is very tragic and flawed but there was a sort of like ... Like grass sprouting up in the cracks of a sidewalk. You saw glimmers of the possibility of redemption and regeneration.
SM (01:14:45):
George McGovern?
AC (01:14:45):
I think he is a very good man, a good man, a good human being, a very decent human being. F. Scott Fitzgerald once said, wrote, that the sense of a fundamental decency is parceled out unequally at birth, and I think of George McGovern as somebody who is very fundamentally decent, a decent human being. I also think he was very naïve and somewhat quixotic. That is about it for him.
SM (01:15:22):
Hubert Humphrey?
AC (01:15:35):
I think of him as sort of about as decent as a professional politician can be. I think of him as a professional politician, more so than McGovern. I do not think McGovern was as practiced and cunning a politician but I think Hubert Humphrey was but I also think that he was a decent man who had good instincts and wanted to do the right thing. It's too bad he talked like Bugs Bunny, he sounded like Bugs Bunny.
SM (01:16:01):
Another one of those figures you never know what may have happened if he had gone against the war.
AC (01:16:03):
Indeed.
SM (01:16:08):
Some people believe he probably would have [inaudible]. Jane Fonda?
AC (01:16:10):
Phony. Another symbol of our generation. I mean, there she is with Ted Turner, a great capitalist buccaneer. Then she went through her aerobics phase, her intensely narcissistic Jane Fonda get a great butt workout phase. She is a phony.
SM (01:16:33):
How about Robert McNamara?
AC (01:16:42):
A tragic, morally corrupt, parental figure. Another one of these people like Nixon.
SM (01:16:52):
I think it is the symbol of today that he [inaudible], veterans, a lot of them will not even read it. It is a little bit too late. A lot of people feel that he wrote the book, because to set the record straight before he died and [inaudible] and others will say that he never should have written the book, and thought it was great not revealing what he did reveal was that in (19)67, [inaudible] against the war at that juncture in (19)67. Of course, Johnson was (19)68. But he did not have the courage to tell him and then went off to Aspen, some people say he went off to Aspen [inaudible]. You have Jan Scruggs, the Vietnam veteran’s memorial would invite him to the Vietnam veteran’s memorial, if he would come, and [inaudible] I believe and I got to know him briefly, before he killed himself, [inaudible].
AC (01:17:51):
Right.
SM (01:17:55):
A firm believer that these are the type of [inaudible] he brought to the war to start the healing.
AC (01:18:03):
Yeah. It is an interesting question, an interesting debate. I guess I feel I am getting a little bit cynical and tired of people who made huge mistakes and committed gross breaches of decency and morality when they were in positions of power, and then suddenly, they have this kind of coup de foudre. You know, this road to Damascus, [Foreign language] later in life where they recognize their wrongdoing and write a confessional book and come to us begging for forgiveness. You know, the Charles Colson’s and the Robert McNamara’s and, in his case, his mistakes cost thousands of lives. I mean, I believe in forgiveness but some people are very hard to forgive and I think he's a person who is very hard to forgive. It is not that he made a ... It is one thing to make a mistake, because of a misjudgment. It is another thing, though, to cover up that misjudgment by repeatedly lying and refusing to admit it, and that is what I hold against him, not so much that he made a foolish decision or made an unwise decision but that he ... But refused to admit that he made a mistake initially and continued to pursue that course of action, and lied about it and covered it up, and was not forthcoming with the truth.
SM (01:20:01):
If he had revealed to President Johnson that he was against the war and resigned and left, certainly, many of the lives would not be lost but then Johnson still may have continued his policies but, at least, then they would look at McNamara as a person who [inaudible] conviction and gave up power and responsibility, knowing it would change.
AC (01:20:23):
Yes.
SM (01:20:24):
You know, that truly upsets me [inaudible].
AC (01:20:26):
That would have been an act of heroism. That would have been a very admirable, moral act.
SM (01:20:32):
[inaudible] in the book, if he had left but then he never revealed it for protection of the president but as he got older, he wanted to reveal this before he died. Then maybe the respect would be there. But he is another interesting figure. Richard Nixon?
AC (01:20:51):
Well, again, you have another figure who sort of fits in with George Wallace and Lyndon Johnson in my book, a guy who embodies many characteristics and traits that are uniquely American. I mean, his ambitiousness, his lust for power, his desire to be a national and global player, and his spunk and his almost preternatural capacity to reinvent himself, to come back from all these crises and all these crushing, in some case, crushing failures to come back, to get up off the mat again, and trust his way into the political scene. I mean, all those things are so uniquely American and, in some ways, admirable but he also ... You know, he was clearly a very tragic figure and, clearly, he made some awful mistakes but, again, at the end of his life, he had the sense that he was a guy who had some capacity to redeem himself and to regenerate himself and, in ways, he was extremely practical and ... What is the word I am looking for? Not expeditious but his normalizing relationships with China, his opening up that whole thing I think was brilliant and represented an example of his practicality and his...
SM (01:22:54):
Here was a man that obviously did not trust others.
AC (01:22:57):
No.
SM (01:22:57):
Of course, his enemies list came forward. Of course, that is probably why he was in the... Gerald Ford?
AC (01:23:15):
I think Gerald Ford is basically dumb, and pretty vain. I actually met him, had an encounter with him and it was very disillusioning, because, for a while, I just thought he was sort of a good guy, kind of a get-along good guy who was not really blessed with terrific instincts or shrewdness or smarts but when I met him, I realized that on top of that, to make matters worse, he was also very vain. We had to film an interview with him for a joke tape and he agreed to participate but when we met him, we met him in this little chamber in the Capitol Building and he shook our hands in a very insincere way and then went over to the mirror and was spending a whole bunch of time primping himself and combing his hair. I was just shocked. I was shocked. I did not think he was that kind of guy. I did not think ... I guess all those guys are that way but it was disillusioning.
SM (01:24:12):
Spiro Agnew? I got one more.
AC (01:24:15):
He was just a sleaze ball. Just a cynical, conniving, out for himself sleaze ball.
SM (01:24:28):
And he hated the boomers.
AC (01:24:28):
He hated the boomers.
SM (01:24:29):
He did.
AC (01:24:30):
Well, they brought him down. I can see why he would be furious at them.
SM (01:24:36):
John Dean?
AC (01:24:43):
I view him as sort of another morally plastic yuppie squirt. He was a yuppie before it became popular, before it became an acronym. All those guys, you know the John Deans and the ... Who is the other guy?
SM (01:25:01):
Ehrlichman and all those [inaudible] and all that?
AC (01:25:04):
Yeah. There was another guy that was more like John Dean, though, a guy who went to Williams [inaudible]? Yeah. Went to Williams College and...
SM (01:25:11):
Right.
AC (01:25:11):
Silver spoon kids.
SM (01:25:12):
He is a minister now.
AC (01:25:13):
Yeah.
SM (01:25:17):
Sam Ervin?
AC (01:25:21):
He was a lovable, folksy embodiment of American rectitude and perfect for the part, at the time.
SM (01:25:34):
I did not realize that ... I thought he was fantastic on the Watergate committee but [inaudible].
AC (01:25:47):
Is that right?
SM (01:25:47):
Yeah. He came south [inaudible].
AC (01:25:49):
Right.
SM (01:25:51):
John Mitchell?
AC (01:25:53):
John Mitchell? I thought he was a very sinister, corrupt establishment figure who sort of confirmed all of our worst suspicions about Republicans in power, and lawyers. He really seemed evil to me, Machiavellian, but I did not ... I almost could say I hated him. For an extremely conservative guy, he was appealing in that I thought he was very principled and I thought he really believed in his conservatism and I guess I have some respect for him. I think that ideologically I would disagree with just about everything he espoused but he did seem like a principled person to me.
SM (01:27:08):
Gloria Steinem?
AC (01:27:10):
Phony.
SM (01:27:13):
How would you put Bella Abzug and those ... These are the people [inaudible], Bella Abzug, Gloria Steinem, and the women's movement.
AC (01:27:21):
I think Gloria Steinem is a phony. I think Bella Abzug seems more ... She seems more sincere and real to me, and especially Betty Friedan. I have more respect for Betty Friedan, mainly because I do not think she is as blindly ideological as Gloria Steinem. I object to feminists who are ... First of all, who lack a sense of humor and who hate men, but also feminists who are blindly ideological and put ideology above common sense and who seem to be dedicated to sexual or gender divisiveness above any kind of understanding of human and sexual relations.
SM (01:28:12):
How are we doing there on that...
AC (01:28:13):
Still running.
SM (01:28:18):
Okay. We are getting towards the end here. We have about three more, and then the last one regarding individuals, it is just the music people, Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin, the Bob Dylan, the people who did the music of the era.
AC (01:28:27):
I did not like the music of my era at all. I was turned off by it. I really have nothing to say except that I think Bob Dylan is immensely untalented. I just never have been able to understand this appeal, the hoopla about him. He is an annoying, irritating voice and I do not think his lyrics are particularly profound. I just do not get it. Janis Joplin, at least, had some kind of raw, animal vigor. I could see... I mean, she just wailed and I could see the appeal in that. Jimi Hendrix seemed to be a talented guitarist but, in general, I feel those people are all overrated, especially Bob Dylan. I mean, he had this aura of profundity, like some oracle, and I just never got it.
SM (01:29:15):
Number 15, do you feel that you have made an impact on American society? Again, let me follow this up by this question will be asked to all participants in the interview process and as a follow-up, do you feel you have made a positive impact on the lives of boomers and members of the current generation called generation X? As a boomer, do you feel that you have made an impact on American society?
AC (01:29:36):
Well, that is a pretty... That invites...
SM (01:29:39):
Do not talk about vanity.
AC (01:29:40):
It invites some immodesty and it is a pretty vaulting concept, to think that you, individually, have had an impact on society. I think that I guess I feel comfortable with myself in that I feel I have chosen a profession where there is a possibility to do good, and I feel that I have been true to the best of the...
AC (01:30:03):
Best of the spirit or the ideals of my generation and that I chose a profession where I knew I would not make a lot of money, but where I knew that I might have a chance to have an impact on the course of public affairs and it's a teaching. I regard journalism, especially what I do now, as-
SM (01:30:21):
Are you teaching full-time now?
AC (01:30:24):
No, I am not teaching formally in a classroom, but it is a teaching profession, I think. I mean, I regard myself as a teacher, an educator, except instead of having a class of 30, I have a class of potentially numbers in the tens of thousands. I mean, that is what I try to do. Horace said that great poetry should dulce et utile, which in Latin means to be sweet and to be useful, and I feel that that is what I try to do.
I try to teach and delight, to inform and to entertain, and I do that now through these comms I write about physical fitness. That is the satisfaction I get, is that I am helping people. It is not really about physical fitness, it is really about happiness. It is how to lead a successful, full life by respecting both your body and your mind. I have also written all sorts of other stories. I wrote that book on incompetence, and I have written magazine articles on lots of subjects. important issues like euthanasia. I wrote a letter to the president the last election asking whoever the president might be. It is an open letter to the president, asking that person to be true to the idea of faith, hope, and charity. I mean, those are the rubrics for the story. Have I had an impact on American society? I would not go that far, but I think I have had a small impact in my little sphere of influence, in my little realm. The people who read the Inquirer, the people who read my book, the people who perhaps read my comm. I think I have gotten them to think I have provoke them. I have tried to be true to certain principles that I feel are important. The idea of fundamental decency, the idea of being what you pretend to be, of what we were talking about earlier, the Episcopal motto. To be rather than to seem to be. That is what I try to do.
SM (01:32:16):
How about influence you made on the people in the generation following you?
AC (01:32:24):
Well, I think I have had an influence indirectly in that. I mean, I have really tried to be honest. I mean, I have been a real big opponent of political correctness and I have had the guts to speak out about it. It has not been a good thing for my career at the Inquirer, to object to diversity training, to object to a lot of that phoniness and hypocrisy. A lot of people think I am a racist because of some of the things I have done. There's been a lot of name calling, and so been a price to pay for that, but I feel that I have been set an example for others, and maybe even some generation Xers, of the importance of adhering to your principles and speaking up when you feel that something is phony or hypocritical or a violation or an abridgement of the spirit of liberalism. I believe that I am a true liberal and that I am for maximum freedom. I am for maximum freedom. What I was saying earlier is that I feel that I am a true liberal and that I feel that I am a believer in maximum freedom. That is what liberal to me means, means free. Maximum freedom. Maximum freedom of expression. I do not want anybody telling me how to think and what to say. I do not want anybody telling me the politically correct [inaudible]. I do not want any institution forcing me to get a diversity training where I am going to be told, I am going to be forced fed propaganda about how to think about certain groups in our society, how to treat people. I do not think that has any place in an academic institution or a newspaper. I am for maximum freedom of expression. I am for maximum diversity, political diversity in the true sense of that. Not this cosmetic Benetton ad diversity of skin color and sexual organs, but real diversity of ideas. I mean, I would love the Inquirer to have some more, and I think David Boldt is a [inaudible] conservative. We need some raving conservatives on that paper and we need some raving radical lefties. I want to see a free for all of ideas and not this phony diversity that we have now, of if you have a Hispanic surname, then you are diverse. Even if you buy into the left liberal orthodoxy and group think of the newspaper. That is where we need the diversity, in terms of ideas and political outlook. I have battled that stuff and I think that, I hope that that is been an inspiration or an example to other people.
SM (01:35:01):
I am coming down to the end.
AC (01:35:02):
Okay.
SM (01:35:02):
I got three more here and make sure that is working.
AC (01:35:06):
It is turning.
SM (01:35:07):
Could you comment on the generation gap in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the generation gap you sense between boomers and Generation X?
AC (01:35:15):
Well, there was certainly a generation gap during the (19)60s, between us and them, and them I guess was anybody over 30. It was our parents' generation and people who we deemed insufficiently progressive and hopelessly benighted. As I said earlier, I think there was actually the baby boomers, if you used the definition that people like, went... Oh, what was his name? Brandon Jones uses in his book Great Expectations for people from between (19)46 and (19)64. I mean, that almost to me encompasses a couple generations. I feel like there is a big difference in outlook between people born in 1950 and people born in 1960. As far as generation X people go. I mean, there is clearly a difference in spirit and a difference in expectation and the difference in outlook. In some ways, the young kids, the generation Xers, are very cynical. Much more cynical than even baby boomers, like myself, who were skeptical about the generation from the get go. I guess they expressed their cynicism in a kind of apathy, in a slacker. Backward baseball cap. Unwillingness to participate or aspire to anything. I mean, Digby Baltzell talks about how this generation seems to be aspiring downward. The whole notion of white middle class kids embracing ghetto rap, and to me it is symptomatic of that. It is sort of like we are going to admire and emulate to the lower or lowest elements in society as a way of basically shooting a finger at the establishment.
SM (01:37:36):
What, in your opinion, is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation?
AC (01:37:47):
The lasting legacy.
SM (01:37:52):
Is it too early?
AC (01:37:54):
It may be too early. Maybe our lasting legacy is that we will not leave a legacy that lasts. It is just quite possible that we were so morally plastic, that we were so spread all over the landscape, and that we were so bent on our own self-gratification that we kind of nullified social good that we purported to do in our more youthful, idealistic stage. I guess that is my feeling, is that we sort of canceled it. We canceled it all out, and that a lot of the things that we thought were so nifty and great and liberating and beneficial, that were going to advance the human race, that were going to represent an evolutionary step forward, tended to have tragic and awful unforeseen consequences. As I said earlier, I think that AIDS could be viewed as a direct result of the sexual revolution. I think that the crack cocaine culture that has destroyed American cities can be traced to Timothy Leary and the glorification of drugs, I think that we are responsible. I think that the fact that the American economy to such an extent is a house of cards and that we do not make things, we make deals today. All that is a result of the greed of the (19)80s, which flowed out of the me decade of the (19)70s, the self-absorption of the (19)70s and all that la-la land stuff that happened then. Which again, which flowed out of the age of Aquarius. If it feels good, do it. You only go around once in life, so grab for all the gusty you can get. That stupid poem that used to be on everybody's poster, that kind of declaration of that creed.
SM (01:40:24):
Do your thing.
AC (01:40:25):
Yeah, I will do your-
SM (01:40:26):
If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful. Peter Max.
AC (01:40:29):
Exactly, that creed, which you saw it every single black lit room in hippiedom which was-
SM (01:40:36):
Peter Max.
AC (01:40:37):
Yeah.
SM (01:40:41):
Put that piece in back. What role, if any, does activism in the boomer generation penetrate the lives of their children's generation? Do you think there is any of that going into the children at all?
AC (01:40:53):
I do not see it. I do not see it, but I guess I have not really been studying it.
SM (01:41:03):
We did this, but I just want to read it. Do you think it is possible to heal within a generation where differences in positions taken were so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care? Is it feasible? For example, during my many trips to the wall, I have been at several ceremonies of veterans in the audience. They hate Bill Clinton. They hate Jane Fonda, hate those who protested the war and never gave veterans a royal welcome on the return to the mainland. The wall has helped in a magnificent way, but the hate remains for those on the other side. Should an effort be made to assist in this healing beyond the wall? Your thoughts? Are you optimistic? Other words, what I am truly trying to say is, what I am trying to do with this project is to, in some small way, interview people who I think have some important things to say from all sides without being prejudiced or biased toward anything. I may have my own personal views, but my ultimate goal in this project is to do something to maybe, in my own small way, heal the boomers and heal American society in some small way. Some will say, I have already had some people say, "You have got to heal the generation? Impossible." I still want to try, based on the meeting that I had with Senator Muskie, that we had with our students who I may have reviewed to you over the phone, and certainly my Lewis Puller sending me a note saying, "Go for it." Things like this. I want to do it. It is something that has been driving within me.
AC (01:42:30):
Well, that is good. I mean, you're an example of the best that you have that passion you think and you think you can make a difference. That belief that you can make a difference. Other people may say, "You're an impossible idealist. You are just a Don Quixote and you're not going to do that. You cannot heal a generation." I think one person can make a difference. In my incompetence book, I told people that, and that was my message, is you are not going to change everything, but you can change things. You can have an impact in your own sphere of influence and that stuff ripples out and you do not know how it is going to affect.
SM (01:43:06):
Two years ago, I never thought I would be doing this, so I am doing it.
AC (01:43:06):
That is great.
SM (01:43:12):
I even thought of possibly developing this into a trilogy. The first one being the reality, which is the voices of boomers and veterans and the boomers, the book being the young people, the next generation, which is Generation X. The third one being a symposium on nine university campuses in the next, somehow three years. I do not know how to get the funding, but possibly the first two efforts would help with the funding, and that is on nine university campuses starting with September, October, November, December, whatever, bringing different panels together to try to bring the healing. That means to bring a Jane Fonda, if she'd be willing to do it, even though how you might feel, to bring her on the same stage with Don Bailey, our former auditor general who when he came to Jefferson, would not even sit down with us, who put the memorial together because he thought it was a political entity in Philadelphia and he was our auditor general. I think he had won a Purple Heart. That was another one of those magic moments where the divisions, my God, he would not even talk with Harry Gafney and Dan Fraley and the people involved in the memorial in Philly because he felt that this is just a political move. I am going to just ask these final two questions. Do you think that we will ever have trust for elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate? If boomers’ distrust, what effect is this having on the current generation of youth? I think I asked that earlier, so I do not know if you have anything else to say.
AC (01:44:37):
I do not know. I get discouraged because I think that the system as it is presently constituted is so inherently corrupt that it is impossible for an honest, truly honest, decent man to let us say become president. I think you almost have to be insane and also somewhat pathological to succeed. I mean, to some extent, I think the people who run for that office are probably, if you evaluated them clinically, are pathological narcissists and megalomaniacs. As long as you have politicians who are willing to do anything or say anything to please lobbyist, to get campaign contributions and to get votes, you are going to have cynicism and distrust of certainly a political authority. People are just resigned to it. They are just resigned to the fact that politicians are cheaters and liars. Unfortunately, the ones we have at the moment have done nothing to disabuse us of that notion. I mean, Clinton and Dole, I think are what we have come to expect. I do not see, I mean, I cannot see that changing unless, well, I think a key step would be political finance reform. If these guys, and what Paul Taylor's trying to do, and there is another example of a single individual having impact trying to change things. Paul Taylor, the former Washington Post reporter who is trying to get the TV networks to give free time to political candidates, he used to work at the Inquirer. I know him a little bit. There is a guy, I mean, I do not know what he did during the, he is a baby boomer. I do not know what he did during the war. He went to Yale. I do not know. He is like a year or two older than I am. I do not know what he did, whether he was active in the anti-war movement. I do not think he was. He was a jock, but there is a guy who's continuing to act on his, he is still an activist.
SM (01:46:46):
Station one?
AC (01:46:47):
Yeah, I think he is. He got together with Walter Cronkite. You have not read about that?
SM (01:46:53):
No.
AC (01:46:54):
He got a lot of press and he has been on TV, public television a lot. They got a couple of the networks to agree to it to some extent. Remember I talked about effective activism, mature activism. There is a guy who is an effective activist, who is getting things done, changing things. Not by using four letterer words and placards and stuff like that, but by working within the system. He was a chief political writer of the Washington Post, and he quit because he just felt the whole system was diseased. How did I get off on that tangent? Oh, well, that is a step to this finance reform, relieving politicians of the burden of having to raise all this money for media time, TV time. If you do that, then the chances of getting some truly honest people, people who are able to maintain some semblance of integrity and run for higher office, is enhanced. I think once that happens, once you get people in office who act on their convictions and say what they mean and take on popular stands and defend those stands and explain why they took them, then I think you are going to see a regeneration of trust for political authority.
SM (01:48:08):
I am almost done. Make sure that is still running.
AC (01:48:11):
Still running.
SM (01:48:13):
When the best history books are written on the growing up years for the boomers, say 25, 50 years from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers? [inaudible 01:48:23]. Then how did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that and future generations?
AC (01:48:36):
Well, again, I guess it is hard to say whether I brought this with me or whether it was inspired by the (19)60s, but I am very skeptical generally, and again, I am very attuned to this discrepancy between appearance and reality. I am very, I guess Hemingway once used the phrase in describing someone as having a built-in shit detector. I have a very good built in shit detector. Having seen the theater and the moral and ethical transparency of my generation firsthand, I am very loathe to canonize or deify or hero worship anybody, but particularly my peers. I guess the bottom line is that I regard them as human beings, and therefore I know that they are probably as bad as they are good or as good as they are bad. That you get both. Both come with the package when you are dealing with human beings. While I think the baby, boomers are special in terms of their numerical preponderance, I do not think that they have any special claim to moral superiority or enlightenment or social beneficence.
SM (01:50:28):
Last question. Here it is.
AC (01:50:29):
Okay.
SM (01:50:33):
You believe they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s vis a vis Vietnam policy, the draft, civil rights legislation, non-violent protests, multiple movements. In other words, a sense of... How is society resisting this today and why, in your own words, do the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society and sometimes a less desire and seemingly less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this in the question? Let me just mention that I work with a lot of college students and I have been in higher education for 17 years at four different universities. I left for a while, but my love for higher education was such that I came back. One of the things that I see overall since that a lot of today's college students that I come in contact with are either wish they lived in that era so they could have meaning to their lives, or they look upon it as a nostalgic period. Oftentimes we will criticize boomers when they talk about civil rights and issues that were important in their day but are still important today. When we try to say that the impact on race relations in society is still we have a long way to go, they will say, "Oh, the civil rights, I mean, you are just bringing up something that was very important to you, but it is not as important to us." That concerns me. If we could get beyond this image of what the boomers were all supposedly about, what the media has portrayed them as, and look at some of the substance of the issues that were involved in that time, that some of that still carries over. I think we are failing to do that today with a lot of the young people. You ask a lot of young people, what is the most important thing? The most important thing is getting a job, making money. That was certainly a takeover from the (19)80s, but making money is very important for them and volunteer. A lot of want to volunteer in their community. We are not saying that students do not care about others, but I get a sense that they are looking out for number one. In the long run, number one is all that really counts, and that concerns me.
AC (01:52:45):
Well, I think you are right. I mean, I am not as close to the kids as you are clearly. I mean, you I am sure have a very educated sense of who they are and what they feel and what they stand for. That is my sense. That is my long-distance sense of the kids today. I think that they have a feeling that they missed out on the big battles and they missed out on the fun. When they look back at the (19)60s, they feel like they missed the boat, that sort of all the major challenges have already been addressed and to some extent conquered. That all that rebellious adolescent fun is over as well. We had the luxury of kicking up our heels and doing it with high moral dudgeon, having a blast while at the same time fostering the illusion that we were doing some good. Clearly the times have changed and the kids today do not have the luxury, I do not think, to do what we did. As I said earlier, we had the privilege and luxury of dealing with these big issues and these big problems. We did not have to worry about getting jobs right away. We were not living in an era of shrinking resources and diminished horizons as these kids are. I mean, we were living in a time when we expected to do better than our parents and to enjoy a better standard of living than our parents. We expected the American engine of plenty and affluence and cornucopia to continue and that this tide would continue to rise and that we would be buoyed with it. I do not think the kids feel that way today. They know that the American century is over, even before the century has closed. They know that they are likely not to enjoy the same standard of living as their parents, and to live in a much more Darwinian, dog eat dog kind of world, a global multinational kind of world, which is much more unpredictable and scary. These are the kids who come out of college with $100,000 worth of debt and have to go back home and live with mom and dad sometimes till they are 30 years old. It is not the same time. It is not the same time and not the same world. I can see why they feel resentment and a sense of wistfulness and nostalgia, and I can see why they are contemptuous of us as a bunch of spoiled brats who kind of got it all, who were hogging all the good jobs and who were irresponsible and want to prolong it. I mean, I can see why it maddens them to see us try to prolong our youth. These 45-year-olds cavorting around being obsessed with fitness and getting plastic surgery and acting like they're still in college.
SM (01:56:24):
I guess I am done, but do you have any final comments you wanted to say at all? Any general concluding remarks?
AC (01:56:30):
My only concluding remark is to carry on. You are doing the Lord's work. It is a good idea. Good luck with your endeavor.
SM (01:56:38):
Well, thank you very much for being involved. Thank you very much.
AC (01:56:43):
You are very welcome. It is my pleasure. Snap. You are very welcome.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Art Carey
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Carey, Art ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Journalists; Editors; Philadelphia Inquirer; Carey, Art--Interviews
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<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Art Carey worked as a reporter, staff writer, editor and columnist at the Philadelphia Inquirer for 34 years. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Princeton University and a Master's degree in Journalism from Columbia University. Carey has won several state- and national-level journalism awards for his newspaper and magazine articles."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792},"12":0}">Art Carey worked as a reporter, staff writer, editor and columnist at the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em> for 34 years. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Princeton University and a Master's degree in Journalism from Columbia University. Carey has won several state- and national-level journalism awards for his newspaper and magazine articles.</span>
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.64a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.64b
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McKiernan Interviews
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116:47
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/134f626f7f10f181e17e56f03416a3eb.mp3
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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Date of Interview
2018-03-09
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Arthur Cooper and Nancy Cooper
Year of Graduation
1963 and 1966
Biographical Text
Arthur Cooper is a writer, self-employed. Art started out working for Gale publishing, but he made his name as a direct mail writer.
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Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area
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Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area
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Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Arthur and Nancy Cooper
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 9 March 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:00
Interview. So for the purposes of the interview, please state your names, that when you were born, when you went to Harpur, the years that you went to Harpur, and when we and where we are at present.
AC: 00:19
My name is Arthur Cooper. I was born on February 9, 1943 in Brooklyn, New York. I went to Harpur in 1959 graduated in (19)63. What is the other question?
IG: 00:37
Where we are physically.
AC: 00:38
And we are physically in my apartment in Manhattan, 79 West 12th Street, and it is March, 11.
NC: 00:47
Wrong.
AC: 00:48
March 9, 2017.
NC: 00:51
Nope.
IG: 00:52
2018.
AC: 00:54
2018. Oh, okay. And Franklin D. Roosevelt is president of the United States.
NC: 01:00
Count backwards by seven from 100. Go ahead. Oh, Jesus.
IG: 01:03
And what we're doing?
AC: 01:05
And we are having an interview for some Harpur Oral History Project.
IG: 01:09
Yes.
NC: 01:10
My name is Nancy Thompson Cooper. I was born on January 11, 1945 in Manhattan, New York, and went to Harpur in September of 1962 graduated in June of 1966 and we are in our apartment at 79 West Hill Street getting interviewed.
IG: 01:31
Okay, very good. So I would like to know where you grew up and who your parents were, whether your parents went to college.
NC: 01:44
My mother went- Okay. I grew up in Greenwich Village in New York. I grew up on the borderline of Greenwich Village in Chelsea, so I had an interesting life. It was interesting as a kid, but I went to Catholic school, which was very confining.
IG: 01:59
Yes.
NC: 02:00
Also not very smart. The teachers were not so smart. They were not well-educated women. I had fun anyway, and somehow, I got into Harpur. I always thought I was the last person in my class to be accepted. I was on the waiting list because I got in on July 6, but I did find out that somebody else got in in August, on August 29 so I felt better. I was not the last person let in. My father was a display man at Abraham and Strauss department store in Brooklyn. My mother was a New York City public school teacher. She did go to college, graduated from Hunter in 1928 and how I ended up at Harpur, I do not know, but I feel so happy that I did. We could afford it for one thing, and Catholic schools kept giving me unasked full scholarships, and I did not want to go there, and I did not, had not even applied there, but they would call our- the school would say, and the nuns would call me and say, "Hey, want to go to Our Lady of the bleeding blood." I do not know, whatever they would call them. "No, I do not." I want at the time, I thought I would end up in Syracuse, and they warned me that Syracuse girls do not wear bathrobes in the hallway. And this is scandalous. It was scandalous. But anyway, be that as it may, I finally got into Harpur. And I was very pleased. Everybody was pleased, especially money wise, because in those days, if you had a regent scholarship, it covered all your tuition.
IG: 03:37
Right.
NC: 03:37
The whole, the whole thing,
IG: 03:39
Yeah.
NC: 03:39
And-
IG: 03:40
Room and board as well?
AC: 03:41
No.
NC: 03:41
No-no, just-just your tuition. My final two years that I was there, I was what they called something, a dorm resident, dorm counselor. Other places had other names for it, which paid all your room and half your board. And I think it cost my parents $279 a semester to send me to college, which was holy crap, really. It was a- I still worked. I worked all the time there. I was a waitress. I was a- I babysat. I worked in a coffee shop. I worked often anyway.
IG: 04:20
So-so, I mean, that is so interesting on so many fronts, not-not least that you grew up in Chelsea and the village at the time that you did, but we're the focus for now is on Harpur College. So why did you- so were there are expectations for you of going on to college from in your family?
NC: 04:44
Oh, yeah, yes.
IG: 04:45
Yeah, because-
NC: 04:47
My mother had gone to college, but she was the only one in both sides of the family who had ever gone to college. You know, my father had had not gone, and he had four sisters who did not go. And you know, nobody else did. She just lucked out.
IG: 05:03
Right.
NC: 05:03
Too long a story, but she did luck out. And so it was expected that, and I expected to go to college.
NC: 05:11
I was an only child.
IG: 05:11
You were the only child. And what-what was the reputation of Harpur College at the time?
IG: 05:11
Were you the only-
NC: 05:18
I knew nothing.
IG: 05:19
You knew- So why did you decide on that rather than-
NC: 05:22
[crosstalk] had a daughter, Ellen, who went to Harpur College and told her about it.
IG: 05:26
Yeah.
NC: 05:27
When I finally met Ellen [inaudible], I said [making a sound] that she was, she belonged to, there were not sororities, but there were things like that.
IG: 05:35
Right.
NC: 05:35
And she belonged to one of those things.
IG: 05:37
Right.
AC: 05:38
See, now she is going to be in this oral history, and-
NC: 05:40
I use her name.
AC: 05:42
Used her name.
IG: 05:44
I do not know her, but we know we may not ever get to-
AC: 05:48
But you have insulted a Harpur student just now.
NC: 05:52
[crosstalk] to insult our Harpur students.
AC: 05:54
Oh! Okay.
NC: 05:55
Back it up. No, it was just she was a very different person than I was and I was she wore skirts, and I never did. I have not since, but sorry, I insulted another person. But anyway, no, I did nothing about it, except that it was not a Teacher's College, and I did not want to go to a Teacher's College, pretty much. And I did know this, that Harpur was the, just about the only liberal arts school, I think just around that time, Buffalo and Albany were becoming more liberal arts, but every other state school was teachers. And not that I did not become a teacher, which I did at some point, but I did not want to just focus on one thing that is all. Is that all?
IG: 06:46
Yeah, or-for now, that is fine. All right, so-so you, it is your turn. So where did you grow up?
AC: 06:56
I was born and bred in Brooklyn, yes, of kind of far out towards Sheepshead Bay in Flatbush. And my father was an immigrant from Poland, came to this country in 1925 and worked in the garment industry as a sweater cutter. My mother was born in New York and went to college. In fact, went to Brooklyn College and became a teacher. Was a public-school teacher. I went to kind of boring local elementary schools and junior high schools in Brooklyn. I went to Brooklyn Technical High School, which I liked a lot. Why did I go to Harpur?
NC: 07:44
You have to tell the truth.
AC: 07:46
Because my friend, who was also we thought we would go to college together, and he was researching colleges that we could afford, and through their catalogs, and he found a college that had no gym requirement. It was Harpur College, and so we both immediately went to Harpur College. And of course, when we got there, they had a gym.
NC: 08:10
They did not have a requirement because they did not have a gym.
AC: 08:12
They had just built the new campus in Vestal, or they were building the campus in Vestal, and by the time we got there, there was a gym requirement. But as long as I was there, I stayed.
AC: 08:12
And so and so. That is interesting. So that was the only reason there must be- ,
AC: 08:29
No, well, I had it in terms of what my family could afford. It was a choice of Brooklyn College or Harpur College,
IG: 08:37
I see. And why Harpur College rather than, you know, SUNY Albany or some other SUNY?
AC: 08:42
Oh, I did not. Harpur College at that time had a very exclusive reputation for being a hard to get into high quality academic liberal arts college that was part of the State University of New York, and it was almost free. Albany was the Teachers College.
IG: 09:04
I see I did, I did. So, and what was your, what was your first impression when you arrived? Were you, you know, you grew up as a city kid? Had you ever gone to the country, to upstate New York before visiting?
AC: 09:24
Well, I went to summer camp, and we took vacations and things my when I got to Harpur, it was a construction site. It was, this was just what they were still holding classes in Endicott, New York, which is no eight miles away or 10 miles away, and then, but they had built a few dormitories on this hill in Vestal. And in those days, there was nothing around it. There was not a shopping mall right down the road. It was a deserted mud dump.
NC: 09:58
It was mud.
AC: 09:58
It was mud for-
NC: 09:59
Mud with boardwalks to get across.
AC: 10:04
But I was happy. I mean, I was I did not want it. I wanted to leave home. I wanted to go to a real college where with a, you know, dormitory life and so on. And I had several friends whom I knew from high school, and I was happy as a pig.
IG: 10:20
Several-several kids from your high school went there and, uh-
AC: 10:25
Yes-yes.
NC: 10:27
I knew nobody.
IG: 10:28
Yeah.
NC: 10:29
Well, and I knew nothing about and, but I had seen it. My parents took the driving trip one summer and showed me different colleges that we could not afford. Went including, we visited Harpur. It was closed. It was the summer, but we saw it and but I knew what to expect. So I had seen it. I was thrilled to leave the city to go to a school like that.
IG: 10:55
So it was a-
NC: 10:57
Sea of mud.
IG: 10:58
It was a sea of mud.
NC: 10:59
And there were no trees. There were no bushes. During my freshman year, Nelson Rockefeller came to make a speech, and they planted a whole bunch of trees one day.
IG: 11:12
What that is what year was that?
NC: 11:14
It would have been 1960 it would either been the fall of (19)62 or the spring of (19)63 and he came and they planted all the trees, and then after he left, they dug them all up and took them away.
IG: 11:26
Was this the time- that is that is incredible. Was this a time that he ignored the anti-war protesters on campus?
NC: 11:36
No, this is way before that. Way before that. This is, and this is when he, we did not know in those days that he was dyslexic, but I believe he turned out that he was, when he called our president, Dr. Bartlett, repeatedly, and his name was Dr. Bartle, but-but, and, but, somebody who was up there said he had big head cards with big block letters, which would you know- What- we did not know about these things in those days. I do not think many did, but he came to made a speech about something I have no idea we-we may have gone or may not have gone, but they took the trees.
IG: 12:12
Reminds me of another person who has cue cards for-
NC: 12:17
Oh yes-yes. Listen, I hear you.
IG: 12:23
It is just off the record. Okay, so we know what were. Yeah.
NC: 12:32
I was a freshman in a dormitory that was all double rooms, but was so crowded we were triples. It was very so every room there should have been two girls, was three bunk bed. It was very crowded, and it was all freshmen. And it was the only year, to the best of my knowledge, they ever made in all freshmen dormitory, which isn't a good idea. It just is nobody to tell you things, right, except your dorm residence. And my dorm resident said, one of the very first meetings said there are people you should there are three crazy people on this campus. Absolutely do not go near them and name two, and the third she named was Arthur Cooper. So there was that, but-
IG: 13:16
And why did, why did Art Cooper have that reputation.
NC: 13:16
It was [crosstalk]
IG: 13:20
So, were you intrigued?
NC: 13:22
No, I was afraid.
IG: 13:23
You were afraid. So how did-
NC: 13:25
But he was a senior. I was a freshman. I did not know, really.
IG: 13:28
So how did you make your acquaintance with Art Cooper in [crosstalk]
NC: 13:33
-small place.
IG: 13:34
Yes, it was a very small place.
AC: 13:37
One of the things that was so special about Harpur is that it was so isolated, just a few 100 kids living in dorms in a mud heap in the middle of nowhere, nobody had cars, nobody had money, that we got to know each other much better than
NC: 13:58
One might have.
AC: 13:59
One might in a normal university where-where there was a world outside the dormitory, and we- many of, I mean, we are still friends 50 years later, with lots of people [crosstalk] we knew from Harpur or from Harpur. And this is, I think this is unusual compared to other people I know.
NC: 14:21
And really a lot like, like, a lot of us.
AC: 14:24
Because we were, I mean, we were, we had classes, you know, 12 hours a week, but we were there 24 hours a day with nothing to do except get into trouble or get into mischief or fool around.
IG: 14:37
So tell us [crosstalk]
NC: 14:38
In freshman year, in freshman year, one girl came with a car, one.
IG: 14:42
Right.
NC: 14:42
And she was called Michelle Buick. I do not know her name, and she only, and she had to be. She did not last. She was gone after a fresh- she transferred out. We were too-
IG: 14:52
Because [crosstalk] she was [inaudible], she-she was giving rise to two minutes.
NC: 14:56
No-no-no-no-no. We were not high class enough. We were, sounds silly, but we're all really smart and pretty poor, a lot of a lot of my friends who lived in Manhattan at that time, it changed over time we lived in tenements. We did not if this was- I liked the food. Nobody likes the food in college, but I had spent summers in a different place where the food was so awful that the food in college seemed fabulous to me.
IG: 15:29
And it was all very plain fare, right?
AC: 15:31
It was a meal plan that you were obliged to be on.
NC: 15:31
It was relatively plain, and you could not have, like, you could not have a piece of pie and an apple. So you have, you were forced to steal if you wanted to have an apple later, you had to, like, steal the apple, because [crosstalk] No, [crosstalk]
NC: 15:49
You had to.
AC: 15:50
And it was pretty mediocre food.
NC: 15:53
It was, it was fine with me, except for the no two desserts.
IG: 16:00
So how did you spend your free time? You said that you had a lot of time to get into trouble. And how did you get into trouble? What were the occasions for-
NC: 16:11
It was the (19)60s.
IG: 16:12
It was the (19)60s, but it was the early (19)60s.
NC: 16:15
We were-
AC: 16:16
We were very precautious.
IG: 16:19
You were precautious.
AC: 16:20
There was a lot of drinking. In those days 18 was the age of consent for drinking in bars in New York-
NC: 16:29
But I have been drinking since 16.
AC: 16:32
Many of us were not even 18 when we were freshmen at Harpur, I was 16, but the bars did not really care. They would be happy to sell you a 10-cent glass of beer.
NC: 16:44
Broome County issued what was called a sheriff's card. Broome County would come onto the campus and the police would take your picture and make it official ID so that if you wanted to drink, you would have your sheriff's card. I lost mine. I found my Harpur ID card from 1962 but I do not have my sheriff's card, but that nobody looks that you drank everywhere.
AC: 17:06
The Triple City Traction Corporation ran a bunch of busses on schedule into Binghamton or into Johnson City or into Endicott. So you could, you could take a bus or but mostly, we hitchhiked a lot. I hitchhiked. I mean, I lived off campus for years that I hitchhiked back and forth.
NC: 17:25
We had parietal rules for the women. It was we had to be in a dorm at 10:30. On Friday and Saturday night, I think it was midnight.
IG: 17:34
Right.
NC: 17:35
And you could have two extra 12 o'clock this semester. It was insane, but when you think about it now, you could your parents had a sign of consent form of when you could stay off campus, like, can she go to religious retreats? Yes, can she stay with a friend in town? Yes. Well, everybody stayed in other place. The boys were allowed to live off campus, but they were not allowed to have a kitchen.
AC: 18:05
Depends which year you're talking about. The rules kept changing.
NC: 18:09
But they were allowed to have a kitchen because they were not supposed to be on the meal plan.
IG: 18:12
Right.
NC: 18:13
And so they would build like fake walls to cover the kitchen.
AC: 18:18
Be respected by somebody from Harpur.
NC: 18:20
And you could not have a kitchen sometimes.
IG: 18:23
So you built a wall?
AC: 18:25
I personally never you never-
NC: 18:27
You never had it, but I know people who did have to do that in Floral Avenue.
AC: 18:31
They put up a piece of sheetrock.
NC: 18:36
But girls, but when you were a senior, you could have a key. The dorms were locked. There was bed checks. You had to sign in every night. Somebody had to sit in the office. That would have been a job of someone like me. But when you were a senior, you got a key, and you could use the senior key. And I was on the senior key committee in my senior year, and that was when we finally got them to agree that girls could live off campus and but I did not go because it was for the last semester of college that just seemed insane, although a few people I know did immediately leave, but I did not. But-but-
IG: 19:15
Did these restrictions seem ludicrous harsh to you at the time?
NC: 19:21
Yeah, they did. They seemed absolutely ludicrous.
AC: 19:24
You could have, you could not have the opposite sex in your dormitory ever, except maybe four Sundays a semester. And the rule was four feet on the floor.
NC: 19:35
And doors open, four feet on the floor. That was, that was the rule.
IG: 19:39
Who would enforce these who would-
NC: 19:41
There was like, it was not called a Dean of Women, but it was like the director of women's housing, was the enforcer. And then the-
NC: 19:46
How would she know? Would she be patrolling? The-
NC: 19:53
[crosstalk] would devolve down to someone like me, a dorm counselor.
IG: 19:57
I see, I see, I see. But would you yell on infractions or-
NC: 20:01
No, I never, I never reported anybody for anything. But, and there was absolutely no alcohol on campus. And yet, I remember somebody running down to my room saying, your friend needed a drink. And did I have a bottle of alcohol? Of course I did, and so she gave it to him. But just anyways, no, it was very, very strict, but, but then we hang, what did we do? We talked, we talked.
IG: 20:33
What did they talking about?
NC: 20:34
Everything. We were very interested in civil rights, really. Before-before Vietnam was, there were people who were sophisticated enough to know about the war, but we were much more interested in civil rights and the Civil Rights Club, but it was a really big deal. There was one television down in what they called something. It was not the it was, it was on the bottom through
AC: 20:59
The basement of the dormitory.
NC: 21:00
Yeah, there was a TV, but nobody ever watched TV except the night the Beatles were first in America, and then there was, there was a television in the student center. There was a TV room where we what we will ran when we heard the President had been shot, and then we went up to watch Walter Cronkite. But we talked, we talked, we talked and talked, and then what else we played. I played cards. I played cards. If anybody said, "Where were you when the Cuban Missile Crisis," I was playing cards in the snack bar. And where were you when Kennedy was shot, I was playing cards in the snack bar. Then we ran when we heard-
AC: 21:42
The snack, the snack bar was the living room for the whole the whole college.
IG: 21:50
So how many people could fit in? I mean-
AC: 21:53
Hundreds. I mean, there were only 800 students total in the college, [crosstalk] and some of them were locals, but so there was plenty of room in the snack bar, and people cut classes and set the snack bar all day.
NC: 22:08
I graduated in the bottom 10 of my class, not the bottom 10 percent , the bottom 10.
IG: 22:16
What did you, what did you study? You said liberal arts.
NC: 22:19
History.
NC: 22:20
I studied more or less medieval history, and I still like it, and [crosstalk] but I you know anyway,
IG: 22:21
History.
NC: 22:22
Was that the Catholic girls education-
NC: 22:33
I know why, what it would have I would have been better off studying English, because in those days, the kind of criticism they did really was-was a lot about symbolism. And man, if you were Catholic, you could have them like that. However, you needed to know a language, and I that meant you had to go to a class and actually study French or something. And I did not.
AC: 22:53
Harpur had a very strong English department in the early days, much stronger than most of the other
NC: 22:59
It was really it was famous.
AC: 23:01
I mean, a lot of serious Ivy League PhD scholars.
IG: 23:06
So is that what you studied?
AC: 23:07
Yeah, I majored in English.
IG: 23:09
So who-who did you study with? Do you remember-
AC: 23:13
The most famous professor was Bernard Huppe, who taught the Chaucer and Middle English in those days to be an English major. It was so rigorous you were obliged to take old English. Can you imagine that you have to actually take old English and Chaucer and not only shake it, of course, in shakes, you had to take Milton. Can you imagine a whole semester of Milton.
NC: 23:41
You did not have to take the Bible.
NC: 23:41
And the Bible.
NC: 23:43
But It was available.
AC: 23:45
But it was a very it was as rig- I mean, they were trying to out Harvard-Harvard in terms of rigor for the English department. And they all, they-they were largely Catholic, the professors, or they were certainly, they-
AC: 24:01
They certainly had a Christian-
AC: 24:02
-Had a Christian, [crosstalk] A great professor was Weld, John Weld, who taught Milton, because nobody else would teach Milton, although Milton's beautiful. Francis X Newman was-
NC: 24:26
Taught medieval literature as well as and I recently went to a not that recently, but in the last 15 years or so, an alumni event where he was giving a speech, and I had had him for a few classes. And what was he speaking? He was speaking about Alger, Horatio Alger, who's the who's the rugged dick. But it was not, it was Horatio Alger books. That is what he was teaching now. And I said, Wow, that is what, you know, I later in my life, I sold rare books and things, and.
AC: 24:59
No, there were no fun courses nowadays. And you look at a college catalog, there are courses you actually might want to take, price novels about price fighting or movies about, [crosstalk] And those days-
NC: 25:15
Now be a English major and never read anything written before 1920 say, whereas-
IG: 25:20
That is unfortunate.
NC: 25:22
Well, it is, but we-we really had a rigorous education.
IG: 25:31
Your classmate, Ron Bayer said that the Harpur educational system was built on the University of Chicago-
AC: 25:44
Yes-
IG: 25:46
-liberal arts model-
AC: 25:48
first year freshmen, or maybe freshmen, sophomores had to take literature [crosstalk]
NC: 25:54
And 104, social sciences 101, 102.
AC: 25:59
They were like core-core courses assured that you knew something about the entire history of the world.
IG: 26:07
Did you find your classes enlightening? Did you enjoy them?
NC: 26:15
Not so much.
AC: 26:16
It depends.
IG: 26:18
Tell us what you enjoyed, what did you like, and what made an impression, positive or negative?
AC: 26:33
There were a lot of very-
NC: 26:34
Different then, for example, in the snack bar, there was a kind of a wall, and the professors would go get because it was the only place you get something deep. They was eight in the other side of the wall. They never mingled. They did not chat with you. They did not talk to you. I did do some babysitting for various professors kids. So then they would pick me up in a car and take me to their house and then bring me home. So you might have a few words with them, but they were not friendly, and both of my children, who are not children, but one is 46 and the other is 38 but when they were in college, they were invited to tea, to the house, or come over for a party. It was a very different social scene than we had. Our professors did not- were not friendly, and did not really know who you were. For the most part.
IG: 27:28
Was that your experience?
AC: 27:31
Certainly for the freshman and sophomore years, it got much better as you were a junior or senior and majoring in something-
NC: 27:40
So you might have had the same guy more than one time.
AC: 27:44
But they fared. A lot of them were very mediocre. I mean, when I started out, they were teachers in the Triple- in the Triple Cities Community College branch of Syracuse University. I mean, that is what Harpur was. Harpur was a two year it was founded by Syracuse to accommodate veterans coming back after World War Two.
IG: 28:06
Oh, I did not know.
AC: 28:07
And it was in Endicott in in huts, right? I mean, in shabby-shabby.
IG: 28:15
But yet it had this-this reputation of being well,
NC: 28:19
Not that, not quite then.
AC: 28:23
Then the state bought it, turned it into a full year liberal arts college, and made it good. But a lot of the professors were-were there since-since before they were, there were a lot of mediocre people around.
IG: 28:40
Were there any outstanding ones that you remember?
NC: 28:43
There was some very interesting ones.
IG: 28:45
Interesting. Okay, so interesting. Let us do interesting.
NC: 28:48
Amy Gilbert-
IG: 28:49
Yes.
NC: 28:50
Amy Gilbert, who was quite old. Now I do not know, because now I am old. I believe she was older than that I am now because she had been a journalist. She had been at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles. She was talking, she had been in France, and she heard they were going to sign the treaty. We jumped on our bicycles and we raced out to Versailles. I mean, what is the first thing a historian does? What is the first thing? What is the first thing? Write it down.
IG: 29:19
Yes.
NC: 29:20
And I mean, but she-she really taught things that were kind of meaningful. She was not boring.
IG: 29:26
No, [inaudible]
AC: 29:28
Who was the art-art professor?
NC: 29:32
Was it Ferber?
AC: 29:34
No-no.
NC: 29:35
Lindsay. Lindsay.
AC: 29:36
Lindsay. Kenneth Lindsay was [crosstalk] was famous because in world, he was part of the American army that was recapturing stolen German art. There was movies about a railroad [crosstalk]
IG: 29:55
Yes.
AC: 29:55
Well, he was one of them.
NC: 29:57
Oh, he is dead now.
IG: 29:58
How interesting.
AC: 29:58
Yes.
IG: 29:59
How interesting. Yeah, so-so you had these, you think that these professors were the exception, rather than the rule that they-
AC: 30:11
The school was growing so rapidly. It was doubling in size every year or two, and the faculty was doubling in size, and the more the new faculty were, had higher-
NC: 30:25
I honestly did not- [inaudible] went to class [crosstalk] do anything [inaudible]
IG: 30:33
So it was -
NC: 30:34
Every semester I got [inaudible].
IG: 30:36
Well, it was what they say now, of MFA program that the-the hard part is getting in, but when once you're there, you can-
AC: 30:47
Well, you have to be good enough to have a keep up a C average.
NC: 30:50
I did not want to flunk out, so I did the minimum that I had to do. I was not sure. I always kind of thought I would be a teacher, but I would go to Bank Street, and Bank Street did not care about your marks. I had two or three personal interviews,
AC: 31:11
[inaudible] submit finger prints.
NC: 31:13
Shut up. I had personal interviews. I had to write 1000-word essays about myself. I could do that like that. It did not and Bank Street, but I had my best friend in senior year, Carol. I can say her name, she did, but she would go to the office about every two or three weeks to check her standing in class because she was applying to law school. And-and she said, "You want to know you?" I said, "No, I do not want to know." And I got through my whole senior year not knowing until they gave me my diploma, and I opened it up to see it was the right one. And there was a transcript and said, standing in class like 496 out of 506 kids, I was the bottom 10.
AC: 32:01
No, I got good grades.
IG: 32:02
Did you care or?
NC: 32:04
No, I think it is hilarious.
IG: 32:05
You thought it was hilarious because it was.
NC: 32:08
It was not that the important, the I thought the best thing that ever happened to me still was that I went to Harpur. How lucky I was. I made friends, lifelong friends. I got a husband. I was exposed to the whole world. I had huge amounts of fun. I- it was, it was just the best thing that ever happened to me. But the going to school part was not that part.
AC: 32:35
I took school more seriously than you did. I do not remember where I graduated, very high. Like in the top-
NC: 32:43
Yeah, you graduated the 20th or the 13th or the sixth,
AC: 32:47
I had lots of A's.
NC: 32:48
Yeah, no A's, but, um, but it was it-it changed a lot. Now, Arthur is he graduated in (19)63 I graduated in (19)66 Ronnie graduated in (19)64 so each of us would have had a different kind of somewhat experience.
IG: 33:06
So, how did you actually meet? You know, you met at college, and then how did you-
IG: 33:13
You kept meeting. So you kept visiting. Nancy or-
NC: 33:13
We kept meeting.
AC: 33:17
No-no, I had another wife.
NC: 33:19
He had another wife, was also Harpur- he only marries Harpur girl and-
AC: 33:26
But it was a, it was a small crowd. We had parties together.
NC: 33:30
You lived in Johnson City. Yeah, you were a teacher at Johnson City High School.
AC: 33:34
Right.
NC: 33:34
And then I had friends and, but then I just got, I met you.
AC: 33:40
Right after I graduated, I went to graduate school in Florida for a year, and then I came back and lived in Johnson City. [crosstalk]I lived in Binghamton and taught high school in Johnson City, high-
IG: 33:52
So what did you get your graduate degree in?
AC: 33:53
I never got a graduate degree in anything. But I was, I was studying for a master's in English.
IG: 34:01
I see, I see, so you returned after that year.
AC: 34:05
Because my wife was still an under mighty first wife was still an undergraduate.
IG: 34:11
I see.
AC: 34:12
Two more years to go, I think.
NC: 34:13
But then years, you know, then-
AC: 34:16
And it was great living. And it was somewhat expensive. I had a five-room apartment with a front and a back deck for $75 a month. You could buy a whole pizza for 75 cents. My first job for teaching in Johnson City High School, I made $5,200 a year. I was rich. I could buy a new I bought a new Volvo, and lived for a year on that it was, was a great place to live.
IG: 34:44
It is, it probably was a different city. It was not economically depressed.
AC: 34:44
Oh yes, it was always [crosstalk]
IG: 34:48
It was prosperous. It was a prosperous city, the city of IBM. No?
IG: 34:56
It was already depressed. It was already beginning to be depressed.
NC: 34:56
IBM was, was IBM was in the process of leaving. Johnson Endicott, Johnson Shoe Company was already pretty much over. And that was huge. It was called, it was a really big company, EJ, but that no, it was, it was kind of depressed city.
AC: 35:19
But that was good because rents were cheap. Food was cheap. I mean, you could buy pierogies for a nickel at the Russian church every Friday.
AC: 35:24
Supermarket and-
AC: 35:32
Get bologna three pounds for $1 [laughs]
NC: 35:39
It was all it was cheap with cheap-cheap living.
IG: 35:41
So-so you know you- let us talk about what you know politics were in the air. You- did you fear being drafted.
AC: 35:57
You did. It depends what year, but yes, politics were very much in the air, and I was one of the more in one of the more left-wing noise making crowds. There was a club called the progressive Socialist Society, founded by a couple of unrepentant Stalinists. And, among other things, we- Herbert Aptheker. We-we arranged for an actual communist. Herbert W Aptheker. He was a PhD in history, and he was really an expert on slave rebellions. But that was not important. What was important was he was a communist, and we invited him up to campus to speak. And this created such a brouhaha in the Binghamton press and in the pen, in the Sun Bulletin and town gown. Relations were very low at that time anyway, because Harpur kids were beatniks and so on. Not yet hippies, they were just beatniks.
IG: 37:20
Were you at that? Did you-
NC: 37:22
There were two kinds of people on campus. Well, sort of there were the upstate and the downstairs, and then they were called the sickies that would be downstate people, or people of that, who might like that from the upstate and clubbies who would might belong to a social club we did not have, we did not have fraternities, but there were social clubs that-that mostly boys belong to girls, but-
IG: 37:52
You did not, you did not.
AC: 37:54
I did not know. And to its credit, the college allowed Aptheker to speak, and it was a big deal. It was surrounded by policemen and everything. And-
NC: 38:03
This is before my time.
IG: 38:05
Yeah.
AC: 38:05
And he came and he spoke and he went.
NC: 38:07
And but so did. But also Eleanor Roosevelt came, right?
IG: 38:11
Right.
AC: 38:12
Yes.
NC: 38:14
And [crosstalk]
AC: 38:17
There were a lot, and it was also the era of the beginning of civil rights. It was- (19)63 was the, you know, the year of taking busses down to register people to vote.
IG: 38:29
And did you?
AC: 38:30
I did not. But people we knew did. Joined [crosstalk]
NC: 38:38
[inaudible] and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.
IG: 38:42
Were there any students of color that you remember from-
AC: 38:46
Almost none.
NC: 38:47
Two.
AC: 38:47
Who were they?
NC: 38:49
Julius Mangi, who, for some reason, came from Africa. And he thought he was, I think he thought he was going to go to NYU, but he ended up in SUNY.
AC: 38:57
And Krishna.
AC: 38:57
Right. He thought he was going to State University of New York. He thought he would be in New York, and he was in Vestal and he was the only black person in Vestal. [laughs]
AC: 39:00
He was an Indian.
NC: 39:12
And then there was a Margot, something, Margot, oh, Yvonne Yancey, I mean-
AC: 39:18
But very few. If they were five in the whole campus. [crosstalk] professors.
NC: 39:24
But there were, that is true there. But it was very active civil rights club, very active. And also going up to picket HUAC is House Un-American Activities Committee. They were they were resurgent in Buffalo. We took busses up to picket. I have pictures of me picketing outside of someplace I do not know. I go to work.
IG: 39:53
Were you protesting against the house of Un-American Activities? Could you tell us about that?
NC: 39:58
I can I. Forgot.
IG: 40:00
You forgot. Okay,
NC: 40:05
I thought about it, but, uh,
IG: 40:06
Well, maybe, maybe you will remember in the course of this conversation, so you were active in this sort-
NC: 40:16
[crosstalk] civil rights this did happen to me in Binghamton, and I do not even know why I did nothing about it at the time, there was a Conklin Avenue. Was a street near the river, was like right along the river, and there was an apartment building, and being with an apartment building might have only been two or three stories right. that refused to rent an apartment to a black dentist who had moved to Binghamton. So the Civil Rights Club decided they would picket this building, and I do not even remember what the outcome was, but we kept a picket line going in front of that building for a while. We all had shifts, and I had a shift with somebody whose name I forgot. His first name was Fred. I remember the rest of his name. Just the two of us on a Sunday morning, and we were on the sidewalk. There was a low a low brick wall and some hedges, and a car pulls up and like three guys jump out, pull out a long gun, like a rifle, aim it at us. We both leaped over the wall and lay down, and they laughed and got back in the car and drove away. And we have not told anybody. And I just think that all of that is very surprising when I think about it. And I was a freshman, then that was surprising.
IG: 41:36
And-and, so do you remember approximately when this happened?
NC: 41:41
I thinking it must have been in the spring of (19)63 in that it was not raining and we were not freezing, but I do not know.
IG: 41:51
Did you tell anybody?
NC: 41:53
Well, we may have told other friends, but we never told anybody in authority or the police or anything.
IG: 41:58
Because?
NC: 41:59
It never occurred to us.
IG: 42:00
It never occurred because you were afraid that you were in some way-
NC: 42:04
No.
IG: 42:05
Breaking-
NC: 42:05
No. It just did not occur to us.
IG: 42:08
Did not occur to you.
AC: 42:09
Because the place where the pigs-
NC: 42:11
We did not think that then, I did not think that then, but anyway, but that would that was one thing that happened, another crazy thing that happened with the Civil Rights Club that was insane, and we had to get special permission from the head of women's housing. There was a department store called Brits, and it was in a shopping mall rather small, just a mile or so from the campus called Vestal Plaza and on George Washington's birthday, for reasons I do not know what they were going to have a- they were going to give silver dollars away for the first 200 people who got to the store. So the whole Civil Rights Club went there. 430 in the morning. We had to get permission for the girls to leave the campus and walk over there and get there when we all line up, we all got the silver dollars to donate to some civil rights organization you might have been there.
IG: 43:13
So what, you know, I am just interested what took place at this in this kind of you said unrepentant. There were unrepentant Stalinists.
AC: 43:24
It was more [crosstalk] Nothing serious. Nothing took place. Just to piss off the administration was like the [crosstalk]
NC: 43:33
That was the goal of everything.
AC: 43:36
-to see what you could do to make Dean Belniak's blood pressure go through the roof.
NC: 43:41
Or just to see what you could get away with. Could you really sneak out and not get caught? Or could you really have had three bottles of brandy in your room and not get caught or, or could you have a boy in your room and not get caught? And-
IG: 43:57
It is just testing the boundaries.
NC: 44:00
It may have been something like that. That would not have been me, exactly, but-but I know that people did that.
AC: 44:07
I was on the convocations committee that was which was [crosstalk] one of the highlights of my career at Harpur, the convocations committee had an annual but it was students, faculty and administration met [crosstalk]I do not know how often to plan the year's convocations, and-
NC: 44:28
Meaning who you invite to the meeting.
AC: 44:30
Meaning what-
IG: 44:32
Right.
AC: 44:35
Placido Domingo came up before anybody ever heard of Placido Domingo. It was, he looked like this. I thought he was a Mexican. He was not Mexican. Dispatched a Mexican. Came by bus.
IG: 44:47
By bus?
AC: 44:48
By bus from New York to Binghamton to sing for right, $100 maybe $150- we had a-
IG: 44:55
Where was he then? Who? What opera was he in?
NC: 44:58
[crosstalk] Our son, Michael, who is a reporter right now, is a, it is not a critic. He is a reporter for music, classical music, dance. And he knows Placido pretty well after all these years. And he once said, my father and mother saw you in Binghamton because it was early, ugly. But we, but no, you had the best thing I ever saw. There was Jose Contreras, Circle in the Square, Production of Under Milk Wood that you and W. H. Auden came. I mean we-
IG: 45:22
[crosstalk] serious?
AC: 45:24
No, I was his escort. I spent-
IG: 45:29
Of whom?
AC: 45:33
W. H. Auden. [crosstalk]
NC: 45:38
He wore slippers, he wore orange bedroom slippers.
AC: 45:45
And he somewhat disgraced himself. [crosstalk] I was a senior and we had the convocations committee, I guess, through an agent or through his publisher. You know, once you're holding convocations, they come to you asking for gigs. And he came up to give a speech. He came up the day before there was a little like a motel unit apartment for celebrities upstairs from in the snack bar building.
IG: 46:08
How glamorous.
AC: 46:20
And I was a senior, and I was at the time, I thought I was going to go to Africa to join the Peace Corps. And so he and I had a long talk about Isk Dinesen and Kenya and Africa, and-
IG: 46:34
Had he been to those parts?
AC: 46:36
He or me? I do not know if he had. I certainly had not, but he knew he was like innocent or and we I picked him up for breakfast. We went to the stack well for breakfast, we sat around and had breakfast.
IG: 46:52
So how did you he strike you? What did he was? What? How did he look like [crosstalk]
AC: 46:58
He was, he was a drunk. He was a pathetic drunk.
NC: 47:04
But he still read his poetry and he was charming and he was neat.
IG: 47:09
Do you remember what he read?
AC: 47:11
No.
IG: 47:11
No, you do not remember. Would it be on record what he read?
NC: 47:15
It might be in the if they have the Annals of the newspapers.
AC: 47:19
I do not know.
NC: 47:21
There was still called the Colonial News.
IG: 47:25
-is in the process of working [crosstalk]
AC: 47:29
It have been in the spring of (19)63.
IG: 47:36
So he was, he was already drunk.
AC: 47:39
No, he was not.
IG: 47:40
In the morning?
AC: 47:41
No-no. But by the time he read at the auditorium or the theater in the evening,
IG: 47:49
After he read?
AC: 47:50
No, before, during he was kind of, his teeth were kind of falling out of his mouth, a little, sloshing around, but, but it was brilliant. I mean, I am not trying to [crosstalk]
IG: 48:05
Were, you know, all of the English faculty kind [crosstalk]
NC: 48:08
I think everybody was, look, yeah, as we have said, there was nothing to do. We had this theater that really the convocations committee.
AC: 48:17
Then they hired the Guarneri Quartet for several years, the Guarneri Quartet was artist in residence at Harpur.
NC: 48:27
And they were phenomenal. And you could go to the free rehearsals. It was free.
AC: 48:31
And their performances, artists in residence, mean they gave four or five performances a year, or-
NC: 48:39
At least.
AC: 48:40
-maybe more than that. And you could go to them, and they were all 27 years old at that time also.
NC: 48:48
One of them was, it was David Sawyer, I believe, who-
AC: 48:52
The cellist.
NC: 48:54
-who could not record because he was a heavy breather. And in those days, they did not know how to get that sound out. But, of course, later on he was, they were making recordings. But we had the Pearl Lang Dance Company. We had, we had amazing shows.
NC: 49:11
And Peter and [crosstalk]
NC: 49:13
Peter Wood was-was-was the outstanding thing in my mind, but-but that we saw lots of things- are just people who-
AC: 49:22
There was also a lot of student produced theater. We had a really pretty high quality.
NC: 49:28
[crosstalk] matches.
AC: 49:29
Okay, there you go.
NC: 49:31
You and you were in the sandbox.
AC: 49:33
I played daddy in the sandbox.
NC: 49:36
No, and you played Uncle Tom in Uncle Tom's Cabin, right?
AC: 49:40
That was different. But, yeah.
IG: 49:41
Why is it different?
AC: 49:44
It was not a real it was not, was not a real theatrical production, on the stage with an audience.
NC: 49:51
It was in the coffee house.
AC: 49:53
Yeah.
NC: 49:53
But they tried to, I mean, we had a good time.
IG: 49:57
You had a good time. And I think sounds like you were exposed to really kind of a deep culture with some really important cultural and-
AC: 50:07
The prevailing attitude was Marx Brothers, Looney Tunes.
IG: 50:13
Yeah.
AC: 50:13
I mean, at least
IG: 50:17
In America, and kind [crosstalk]
AC: 50:19
No, the attitude among my friends and fellow students. We were wise guys.
NC: 50:26
Funniest people I ever met in my life. I and I do not think you can be really funny unless you're really smart. And I could not believe my good fortune to be in this place with people. I hope we're just hysterical now, even now on Facebook, we're old and that sort of we do Facebook, and there are a group of horrible people, and sometimes you will get a thread of things that will just have me laughing, and it is exactly they are exactly the same as they were, even though I have not seen them in 40 years, these the repartee is very-very-very clever and funny and smart, but-
AC: 51:07
There was Binghamton radio disc jockey or call and talk show host.
IG: 51:17
I Think I interviewed somebody who [crosstalk]
AC: 51:20
For months, a couple of students, whom we will not name, would call him up with funny accents and engage him in the most ludicrous conversation.
NC: 51:34
I have a magic act, and I cannot get hired any man in Binghamton. [laughter] [inaudible] the tip of my tongue, but I want to say I cannot remember the name of the show.
AC: 51:48
Okay.
NC: 51:50
Speak for yourself. I think that is what. It was cool. Speak for yourself. Ultimately, they caught us.
NC: 51:56
So what happened? [crosstalk]
NC: 51:59
They just hanging their phone calls. But it was truly hilarious.
IG: 52:05
So how did, how did the talk show host feel these answers?
AC: 52:12
He was blindsided. He was taking this seriously.
NC: 52:16
And then other people would call in to respond. But the people there were so really-really funny and clever in ways and outrageous, and it made it a lot of fun.
AC: 52:34
A highlight of my four years there was when the Aunt Jemima Pancakes House, Pancake House opened down the highway,
NC: 52:42
Right across the from campus [crosstalk]
AC: 52:49
Um, for their opening month or three months-
NC: 52:52
Was not that long.
IG: 52:53
[inaudible] on site?
AC: 52:53
Yes.
NC: 52:53
But then there was the great- there were a lot of along Vestal Highway. I do not know if it is still called vessel highway. There was a number of steak houses. And then there was the weekend of the great steak stealing contest. Many different, many different students worked in kitchens or waiters, and the idea was, who could steal the best, the most steak. It was relatively harmless, stealing steaks from the restaurant that underpaid you.
IG: 52:53
But what kind of music were you listening to at the time? Do you remember?
AC: 52:53
Folk.
AC: 52:53
I do not know what it was. It was all you could eat for dollar 25 right across the highway from a campus with a bad meal plan, so we drove them crazy. I mean, waitresses are crying and quitting. I mean, we come in and say, I would like two large glasses of fresh orange juice and eight orders of bacon, please.
NC: 53:01
In the beginning, was folk, but, but by the time it was I was really heavy stones. And you know, the more druggy we became, the more less folky we became.
AC: 54:09
No drugs in my early years.
NC: 54:11
There were no drugs and, well, there were drugs in my early years, but I did not have the good sense to use them. Ultimately, I and some of these things stay with you for the rest of your life. And here we are, of course, more than a half a century later. And-
IG: 54:27
So how different were these, were this experience of theater, of Guarneri String Quartet, from your family upbringing? Was this a different world, or was this a continuation-
NC: 54:40
Totally different.
AC: 54:42
Oh, yeah, this was getting cultured, that you go to college to get cultured.
NC: 54:46
My family was half Spanish, and so what we, if we-we would go see flamenco dancing, sometimes in Carmen and Maya, but once I was sent to the Metropolitan Opera. And I thought, kill me now, but now, anytime I can go, I am so thrilled, and I get to go quite often. I did get to Broadway plays when I was a kid because they were affordable, unlike now, if there was a blizzard in New York, my mother would say, "Quick, get on the subway, go up and get tickets," and there would be cancelation So, but they were cheap. They were truly cheap, not now anyway. But no, this was all new. It was funny. I grew up in the village, and I was walking out of my school singing, "Oh, Mary, we crown thee with blossoms today." Bob Dylan was probably across the street singing, but I never saw him. I was doing something other than, you know, I did not well. I hung around the streets. And very interesting.
IG: 55:51
You were also young.
NC: 55:52
Yes, but-but we were also out all the time and [crosstalk]
AC: 55:56
A lot of movies. This was in the day before there were VCRs or DVDs or anything. And so-
NC: 56:04
That is right, movies.
AC: 56:07
And it was a- the convocations committee showed some movies, but in the private or student clubs, as a fundraising event, would rent, uh-
NC: 56:22
I do not know about that, Mondo Connie. I remember going to the movies in Binghamton. It was cheap. Movies were cheap.
AC: 56:29
But like, we would rent a movie, you get it in reels of 16-millimeter film from Janus, and you charge 50 cents admission, and you would show an Ingrid Bergman, Ingmar Bergman, or some of the European you know, high class post World War Two movies.
NC: 56:53
For lots of us-
AC: 56:55
Because there was almost always a movie somebody was showing on the weekend.
NC: 56:59
For all of our friends, even, who are my friends now, none of their parents went to college. None of them did such cultural things. We learned it in college. We had- it was a lot of fun.
IG: 57:13
So tell me about you know, just give me kind of a general kind of trajectory of your lives after you graduated, you went to Bank, Street School, you at some point-
NC: 57:27
I went to Bank, married, I became a teacher, and he ultimately became a teacher. He was still avoiding the draft.
AC: 57:42
I spent several years of avoiding the draft. I went to graduate school in Florida.
NC: 57:48
They would not let him into Peace Corps.
AC: 57:50
[crosstalk] the draft. I could not get into the Peace Corps because of my left-wing background. This was the very earliest years of the Peace Corps. Kennedy was president, Sergeant Shriver was head of the Peace Corps, and they were very nervous about hiring communists. I was not a communist.
IG: 58:09
But you were, I mean, [crosstalk]. How did they know that you were a communist?
AC: 58:13
The FBI was- they really did background checks on every Peace Corps applicant. I mean, they were interviewing my neighbors in Brooklyn, my parents, neighbors in Brooklyn.
NC: 58:25
From where you moved out when you were two or something even.
AC: 58:29
So, but anyway, the Peace Corps would not have me, but they got me into graduate school in Florida, after which I got a teaching job, which was defer draft deferrable. And I also married somebody which was also draft deferrable, somebody not Nancy. And I taught there for three years.
NC: 58:51
Then-then, she went to graduate school in the city, and so you moved to the city, and I was already teaching in the city, and this was in the late (19)60s, and there was this enormous teachers strike. Albert Shanker, I do not remember these names, and it was a huge-huge strike. And they were, I am making the numbers up here, but something like 35,000 striking teachers and 100 scabs-scabs. It was political at that time. At this time, I was saying it was it was it probably incorrect position, but days it seemed like the correct position. And there were meetings and I-
NC: 59:32
Teachers teaching for the community.
NC: 59:32
Teachers teaching for the community.
IG: 59:36
Tell us, what are scabs for the purpose of this?
AC: 59:40
Scabs are teachers who cross the picket line to go into work
NC: 59:44
Scab, you know, and I had to walk past my coworkers who would spit on me as I walked into my school in East Harlem, which I had to open with a crowbar to get the chains off the door because the schools had been locked and we slept there in. In sleeping bags, but, and there were people who to this day, if I said they would not speak to me, but I do not care.
AC: 1:00:09
And I was teaching at the time in Brooklyn and Sheepshead Bay High School, which had probably 200 faculty and six scabs. And it was unpleasant.
AC: 1:00:09
It was unpleasant. Yes.
IG: 1:00:21
So how did you-
NC: 1:00:24
There were meetings for the people who were the teachers, and since the only 100 and all city.
IG: 1:00:30
Right.
NC: 1:00:31
We-we met, and I do not know.
AC: 1:00:35
And we had mutual friends all from Harpur.
NC: 1:00:38
Over the years, we had been at parties at the same time.
AC: 1:00:42
But this time I was not married.
NC: 1:00:43
This time he was not married, and I was, you know, loose ends, and they kept buying the same records,
AC: 1:00:50
And she had an apartment with an air conditioner.
NC: 1:00:54
And I had a dental plan, and that was it. I do not forget why I married you, because I thought you were handy.
AC: 1:01:04
I was handy. I put down a new floor in your kitchen.
NC: 1:01:07
Yeah, it was six tiles.
AC: 1:01:08
The kitchen was so small that it took nine tiles.
NC: 1:01:13
But then you never did it again.
IG: 1:01:17
So how did you-you know, and how did you end up in this beautiful apartment? And from being, from being in that small space with six tiles to-
NC: 1:01:28
Arthur, he was very successful, but he did.
AC: 1:01:34
After my second-year teaching, and Sheepshead Bay, I quit teaching.
NC: 1:01:40
That is when we got married.
NC: 1:01:42
She might have heard. Do you know the Gale research company?
AC: 1:01:42
And that is when we got married. I was able to quit teaching, because I by that time, I was 26 and not draftable. And we got married, and I looked for jobs. I got jobs writing-
IG: 1:01:59
Yes.
AC: 1:02:00
I worked for writing advertisements to librarians for the- their various series, The Encyclopedia of Associations, contemporary authors.
IG: 1:02:11
Of course, I know, I know that series very well.
AC: 1:02:14
Okay, well, I had nothing to do with the series except selling it. They had an office in New York where we wrote junk mail, catalogs and brochures and mailings to librarians to get them to buy Gale products.
IG: 1:02:30
I remember the hard copy version of Gale, the contemporary authors, the various kinds of-
AC: 1:02:37
I only knew the hard copy version.
NC: 1:02:39
I am going to walk away [crosstalk]
AC: 1:02:46
That was a good job, because I was in a two-person office, and I learned everything from my boss, not just in writing the copy, but in cutting out the proof, the-the print. Prints and pasting them down on the mechanicals and wrapping the boards and taking them to the post office to send to the printer. And I learned the whole direct mail industry.
IG: 1:03:14
Did you interact with the authors at all, or editors?
AC: 1:03:18
No, the editor's slides- most of what Gail was selling were so called scholarly reprints of Victor of out of print, and therefore public domain, Victorian studies of folklore and stuff like that. It was really happened to be the interest of the guy who owned the company.
IG: 1:03:41
But I remember, you know, I remember 20th century Russian authors in that series, and contemporary author, I remember, I remember using that encyclopedia myself for, you know, my-my studies.
AC: 1:03:58
Well, do you know better than I.
IG: 1:04:00
My Russian literature, yeah.
AC: 1:04:02
And by that time we had a baby, and I was making very little money, but my boss at Gale connected me to his friend at an advertising agency called R. L. Polk, and they hired me just a few blocks away, and suddenly I was making much more money, and I became a direct mail advertising creator, creative director, writer, copywriter, mostly for magazines and books and book clubs and also insurance companies and fundraisers, and I did that for them, for well, there was [crosstalk] back and forth, few jobs in here and there, but I ultimately left that to go freelance and. From 1986 until now. Well, I am now retired, but I was self-employed as a direct mail freelance writer and designer, and that that is [crosstalk] I bought this apartment.
IG: 1:05:22
And you?
NC: 1:05:24
I taught for a couple of years. Had baby. Always thought I would go right back to work, as my mother did. She went back to work before I was two, but then I realized do not want to do that. I was very-very different from women my age. They all wanted to fulfill themselves and go to work and-and they needed the money, but we were able to pare back our lives in a way that I did not go back to work. I stayed home with Michael, and then I had a second child a number of years later, but I did not go back to work till Eddie was 29 I did not be but I volunteered all the time. What did I do? I-I volunteered, doing two things, playing the guitar in nursery schools, music with little kids, because I am pretty good at that. But I also learned the used book business, and first, as a volunteer, sold books for a nonprofit called the Hudson Guild on north side in Chelsea, they would have a book fair every year, and I would work on that, and ultimately run that. And then they decided not to do that anymore, and I began working for a group called Housing Works. And Housing Works is a pretty big aids homeless group, but they have a bookstore in on Crosby Street in Soho, and I worked there for 13 years, selling rare books online and in the store.
IG: 1:06:57
As a volunteer?
NC: 1:06:58
No-no employee. And I still, I was there Monday. I still do that. I like a lot.
IG: 1:07:07
That is nice.
NC: 1:07:08
So I am fun, and I know a lot about books. And it is, you know, this weekend is-
AC: 1:07:14
Yes, the Park Avenue -
NC: 1:07:15
-is the biggest.
IG: 1:07:17
Armory?
AC: 1:07:18
Yeah.
IG: 1:07:19
Big wood.
NC: 1:07:19
Big book fair.
IG: 1:07:21
Book fair. Oh.
AC: 1:07:21
This is the classiest, largest book fair anywhere.
IG: 1:07:25
Rare books.
NC: 1:07:26
Yes, this will happen. You know what they call elephant folios of order by Princeton [crosstalk]
AC: 1:07:32
You can get in for $25.
NC: 1:07:35
I do not- is it that I did not, I am not going. I cannot walk, so I am done with that for the moment.
IG: 1:07:41
Okay, well, you know, I think that maybe you know the concluding questions are that I usually ask at the conclusion of the interview is, what lessons, what life lessons did you learn that you think would help current students at Binghamton University, or, you know, future, future students that are listening to these tapes. What really got you through the-
NC: 1:08:15
Trends. But I cannot imagine it so large now it is just one of our nieces went there. It is huge. It is just, I have not been back in a number of years. I went to a few reunions, but it is really far, really far, and I had a fabulous time.
AC: 1:08:35
Not as far as it used to be.
NC: 1:08:36
No.
AC: 1:08:37
When I started going there, it was seven hours to drive there from New York City, because there was a route 17 ended in about in Monticello, in the Catskills. We're living somewhere. And from-from there to Binghamton was a narrow, winding two lane road in you would invariably be stuck behind a milk truck going uphill and with no passing possibilities. And it took seven hours to drive from New York to Binghamton. Now it takes three.
IG: 1:09:10
That is terrible.
NC: 1:09:11
It was five and a half the first time my parents took me there.
IG: 1:09:14
As it is now, three and a half hours is pretty exhausting.
NC: 1:09:17
Yeah. It got better when we could go through Pennsylvania.
AC: 1:09:20
The fastest way still, is through Scranton. [crosstalk]
NC: 1:09:24
And that was also very scenic, but, so I do not it was just friends that that have meant everything to me, and here I am still. I mean, we have a house on [inaudible] because my college roommate has a house one walk away from me. We still, yeah, we're friends forever. We have a number of couples who are still married in the time when so many people are not still married. Okay. We're married 49 years. Yeah. A tip for you. You always had your marriage on, but we- what was a lot of fun in early years after college was that everybody came back to New York to see their parents, and they would come see us now, their parents were all dead, so we do not see them so much they stay in California.
AC: 1:10:22
Being a Harpurites, Harpur graduate who lived in Manhattan, you would get a lot of company from other Harpurites who were coming to the city to visit for Christmas week or whatever.
IG: 1:10:35
So for you, what do you have any message to convey to the future.
AC: 1:10:43
I guess be cynical, I guess is my most important point. Be questioning. Be negative.
NC: 1:10:53
I am nothing like that.
AC: 1:10:57
Do not believe anything they tell you.
IG: 1:10:59
So it is a good lesson. Any concluding remarks.
NC: 1:11:10
It was very pretty. There was the country. It is not so much anymore. I mean, I have seen it. They used to be, could just walk up behind the dorms.
AC: 1:11:17
We had a tree house. I mean, one of the reasons. One of the reasons they thought I was a bad example was a couple of friends and I just walking. There was probably buildings there by now. Keep going up the hill, uphill from the campus, and you were in the woods. And it was, it was complete woods. I mean, you could not see anything in any direction, and we built a tree house and would go there and sit around. We never smoked anything there, maybe not in the early years.
IG: 1:11:52
Why do you think that you have the reputation of being inspiring person? Do you-
NC: 1:12:02
[crosstalk] Zany.
AC: 1:12:05
Yeah, there was a lot of zaniness involved. And this was also the age of Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. And for example, in my freshman year, living in Hinman dormitory on the second floor, I collected 10 cents from every kid on the floor every month, and bought comic books and bought and so that there would be about eight there were three toilet stalls in the bathroom, and each in each toilet stall, I had about eight comic books on a string tied in. And this was, one was adventureland, one was fantasy, yeah, and one was and every month I put in 8-24, fresh comic books. That is just an example.
IG: 1:12:05
Oh, Zany.
IG: 1:12:55
[crosstalk] material, yeah, yeah, but that is kind of an inventive idea.
NC: 1:12:58
It is funny. I did not know you did that. I did that too when I was a dorm counselor, but it was not comic books. It was all girls, yeah, girls dorms. And I did that. I did that too. I must see it. It was, it was a very great time for me those four years, and I did learn things, despite the fact I am so sorry that I did not learn that I should have majored in art history. I did not discover Art History till maybe the first semester of my junior year, and I thought I died and gone to heaven, but in those days, you did. Nobody stayed in college more than four years. You knew you went for four years, and nobody had the money for the extra year, so you could not make all your requirements if you did that. But-but I-I would always like history, but art history was even better, because it was everything. It was history and sociology and philosophy and politics, and-
IG: 1:14:05
It had, from what I know, it had a tremendous Art History and Art Department.
NC: 1:14:11
It did, but I never had Lindsay. I well, I did a little bit, but there was a guy who was in art. I wish I could think of his name. He was a curator at the Morgan.
IG: 1:14:26
I know him. Wolfley.
NC: 1:14:29
That is it. I have gone on tour there with him.
IG: 1:14:33
I bought tours with him too.
NC: 1:14:40
But there was a lot of- I wish. I wished that I had known about art history, but just it was something, and I wish they had not made me take Bio, Sci or geology, although, in fact, Geology has, even though I got a D. Shut up, it stood me in good stead. I still know a little bit about what I am looking at when I am out in the world. But I wish I could have taken it a little more cultured. I would have been better off had majored in art history.
AC: 1:15:11
I would like to learn something about Charles Eldred, who was he was a senior when I was a freshman, and the artist, correct. I will find out. And he died, yes, young, and I do not know how, although he smoked [inaudible] nonstop.
NC: 1:15:38
He had a wife. His wife, wife's name [inaudible] and his son's name is Charles, and Chuck is-is an architect, because I once Googled Charles Eldred and I have got Chuck.
AC: 1:15:47
There is a museum in Binghamton called the Roberson gallery. They had a show there. In fact, we have a poster of it in the bathroom. [crosstalk] And he was an extremely aside from being a talented artist, he was zany and crazy and wonderful. I mean, he was, he was built, he built an ornithopter.
IG: 1:16:11
What is that?
AC: 1:16:18
If you imagine a something Leonardo da Vinci, a helicopter built by Leonardo da Vinci out of wood with thick wings, that flap. I mean, it did not work, but it was a built it out of wood. Months building an ornithopter, and with a very good sense of humor.
IG: 1:16:40
He actually built it, yeah, did it work?
AC: 1:16:43
No, he did not. I mean, he never tried to, never took it on the roof and tried to fly. No, it would definitely not work. it was a joke. And Lindsay, after he graduated, Lindsay hired him to stay on, to teach art. And there is a whole lot of Harpur alumni who studied art, from-from Doc, from Professor Eldred.
AC: 1:17:13
But he was an outstanding considering an unknown artist, he was totally unknown in the world of art, and we great.
NC: 1:17:13
And who have, we have a number of friends who have an Eldred or two in their house. We have more than an Eldred or two.
NC: 1:17:31
We think he is good.
AC: 1:17:34
That concludes our meeting for today.
(End of Interview)
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Title
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Interview with Arthur Cooper and Nancy Cooper
Subject
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Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area
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Cooper, Arthur ; Cooper, Nancy ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
Description
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Arthur Cooper is a writer, self-employed. Art started out working for Gale publishing, but he made his name as a direct mail writer.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2018-03-09
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In Copyright
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eng
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Art and Nancy Cooper.mp3
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2018-03-09
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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77:38 minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c0a37c6a02baeb277abe5225bb767f50.mp3
4e8761f3994f9bd48a63c5e3fb2aa63d
Dublin Core
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Title
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Broome County Oral History Project
Subject
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Broome County -- History
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Description
An account of the resource
The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
Identifier
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2
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In copyright
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
Coverage
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1977-1978
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rider, Arthur G.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Wood, Wanda
Date of Interview
1978-02-23
Subject LCSH
Watch making; Watch repair
Collection
Broome County Oral History Project
Date of Digitization
2017-03-27
Streaming Audio
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56091">Interview with Arthur G. Rider</a>
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27:37 Minutes
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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<p><strong>Broome County Oral History Project<br />Interview with:</strong> Arthur G. Rider<br /><strong>Interveiwed by:</strong> Wanda Wood<br /><strong>Date of Interview:</strong> 30 May 1978</p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: This is Wanda Wood, interviewing Mr. Arthur G. Rider in the Press Building. Binghamton, New York. The date is 30 May, 1978. [muffled: 78]. Mr. Rider, you've been a citizen around this area for many years, and we'd like to get some of your experiences down on tape. And, ah, especially about your, your jewelry. Wholesale jewelry business. And, ah, could you begin by telling us where you were born?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Oh, I was born up on, ah, River Road [Chenango Bridge], ah, about, ah, almost at the corner of the airport road. And, ah…my people lived there three…I think they were there three years before I was born. And then…and, ah, and I still own the, I still own the house. [clears throat] Well, they, ah…<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: And they - were they farmers, or…?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: They were farmers, ayunh-yuh. Ayunh…farmers. Yeah, we had probably 20 cows, and 50 chickens, and, askah, three horses.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [laughing] That was a big farm, probably.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well not, very big...I drove a horse to school when I was a kid, to Chenango Forks.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Chenango Forks School.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Ayuh.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Where was that, then? Where was the school? Arthur: Well, the school was on the right hand side of, um…on the right hand side of, ah, Main St. in Chenango Forks. It's around, in where the new fire station is now.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh. The building is gone, is it?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yes. The building’s gone. Oh, yes - it's been gone for quite a while.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Did you have to go up that dug-road along the river? Arthur: Yeah, I went up the dug-road.<br />W</span><span style="font-weight: 400;">anda: [laughs]<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Drove the dug-road.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: That must have been pretty treacherous sometimes in the winter.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well, yes. Ayuh, it was. Yeah. Horse jumped out of the one track into the other where we were in it. I remember we all went down the, down the bank in the [laughs] - horse and all.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [laughs] Overturned?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: But, I made it. Didn't do any damage, as I remember.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [laughs] Oh, dear.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: So you went to school up there until, when?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Went to school, and that's where I got an idea that I wanted to learn the jewelry business. Used to go in to see the watchmaker theres every day. Got it in my head I wanted to learn watchmakin’, so then…I…<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur:...Went to…took a correspondence course in it first, and then I went to Lancaster, to Bowman's in Lancaster and studied - took up the watchmaking. Then I came back and got a job, mmm…Russell O'Brien, 54 Court St. I was there about a year…a year, I guess. And then I went...a year, a year… <br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Was that a sort of an apprenticeship?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No, no. I got a job, you know. It was, ah…I think for that age... You see, that was in 19…no, 1918 or 1919. Right? At the end of the war. And, ah, ah, considering, I don't thinkin’ I got such a bad job to start with. I got $20.00 a week.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [chuckles]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Then I raised me to 25, and then I went to thirty. I went down to 20 Court St., and I got, ah, finally got 35 after, after the five years. And, ah, I told you that I, about-a, the…I told you about living in the Hotchkiss? [Hotchkiss Boarding House, corner of Henry and Carroll Sts.]<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yes, I'd like to hear about that. <br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah, on the same...ah, that, that was the time that boarded up there, and I ate there. <br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: It was the Hotchkiss? <br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Ah, three meals a day in this boarding house. Linen tablecloths and, and, ah, colored waiters, and three meals a day for a dollar. So you see-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yes, it is-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: I wasn't doing so bad at, ah, on tw-25/$30.00 a week. And only paying out, eh, six and a couple’a, couple of dollars for a room. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [laughs]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: In proportion, I was doin'...<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">[Both laugh] <br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: -far better than you would these days, that's for sure. <br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: In proportion, I was doing much better. <br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yeah.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Uh-huh. But anyway, the watchmaking... there was a demand for them, must be, because I don't think - my wife's my same age and I don't think she got, as the secretary for a lawyer, I think she only got $6.00 a week when she started.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm-hm. Well, why - when you were - this job, the second job you had, were you watchmaking, or, or were you…?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Repairing watches. Repairing watches.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Repairing. And then how did you get from there into jewelry?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well, [sardonic chuckle] well I got mad that - ‘s’well, I got mad that-s, I wanted to travel on the road, so I applied for a job up to the Pond's in Syracuse, the ones that sell Keepsake now?<br />Wanda: Mm-hm. <br />A</span><span style="font-weight: 400;">rthur: And-a went up there and that's how I got a job. They gave me a job. Traveled on the road…on commission. Straight commission.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Huh. Did you cover one certain area, or…?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well, I covered New York State, mostly. Wanda: Is that a fact?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah, traveled around New York State.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: What was that, by train or car, or what?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Part of the time by train. In the wintertime, I traveled by train, wintertime [summertime] I used the car, but, ah, I never traveled on the train too much. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Have some, but not too much.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: And you took your sample cases and…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Ayuh, I took samples.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: And went to jewelry stores?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Jewelry stores, yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: I imagine the styles of jewelry has changed a lot since then, hasn't it?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well, yes, I guess. Not too, I don't think…not too much, as I know of. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Wasn't jewelry quite, oh, ornate…in those days?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: I don't remember. We sold - oh, used to sell cufflinks, lots of cufflinks, ah, and lots of cuff buttons, and lots of, ah, Waldemar chains [watch chains]'n…and, ah…oh, little pins. Small, little pins for the ladies, a-and, ah…oh, I don't know. Then we sold watches. See, a wholesaler those days sold watches.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Uh-huh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Now, they don't.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh, they don't? It's gone too big now?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well, it's gone... see, during the war in 1940, they all switched over from, ah…from wholesalers, direct from the manufacturer to the retailer…’bout 1940.<br />W</span><span style="font-weight: 400;">anda: Oh.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: So that, that, ah, that ended a lot of the big wholesalers.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Cut out the middleman, didn't it?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yep. Few of them, few of them survived. And some didn't. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Down…so…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: What, ah…how did you…? You must know a lot about diamonds. How did you get into that branch of the jewelry?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well, I go - I guess…when I worked for the Pond's, ah, I was interested. They seemed to be interested in, ah, I sold the - you see, they had the trade na- mark name, “Keepsake.” </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: And, ah…I sold the first assortment of them I sold down in Honesdale, Pennsylvania. And, ah, Robert Pond sold the first one in, ah, the first ring in, in, ah, Mike Lisson's in Syracuse on Salina Street.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Then I got it in my hea- I worked for them 10 years, then, then I got it in my head I wanted to try it myself, so…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">[Both laugh]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Then I went to, then I went to work at that. Then, then I went to work for an outfit in Lancaster where I sold the same kind of, uh, well, jewelry. Hamilton watches; Elgin watches; every kind of silverware and whatnot. And so then I, then I got it in my head I wanted to go to Europe. I thought, if they could go to Europe I could go to Europe, so I [laughs] the Pond's - I figured, if they go to Europe and buy diamonds, I could, too.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [laughs]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: So in 19 - lessee…1938. I went, I went to Europe and bought some stones over there.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, where did you go for that?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well, I went to, I went to, um…went to Antwerp first. Then I went, ‘n’, then I went from there to Amsterdam. Went to…they had offices in both places. And I stayed there four/five days and, ah, bought a few stones. ‘N’ I always, ah, I kept the contact for years and years...there.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: So you've dealt with that same-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah, I did for years and years.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: -contact?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah. So then I come back, and I didn't go to Europe again, ah, for another…see…not ‘till about 1960…probably not…what? ‘Bout 19sh…guess about 1970, I guess we went the second time. Of course, the war come on, you see.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: And blocked ya from the, the second war, there. That blocked you from, from going over there. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Did you, was there trouble with supplying, uh, diamonds from, ah, Holland during the war?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Hmmm, well, I…<br />W</span><span style="font-weight: 400;">anda: Do you remember?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well, during the war, you couldn't get 'em from over there. They were all bottled up. I mean, ah, eh…the Nazis took a lot of them and, eh, ah…you couldn't get - no. The man I knew, he was, happened to be in America when, when, um…when Hitler marched into Holland, He was in America.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: And, ah, he stayed here several years.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Until the thing got quieted down...yes. No, you couldn't, there was no, no diamonds come outta there during the war.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: None, none at all...then. So I, uh…I dunno. I…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: How did you, how'd you supply your customers, then?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Oh, it was very difficult. Of course, there's an awful - people have awful big stocks of them in America. And, ah, I dunno where they come from. The price was very high then. And, [sardonic chuckle] but it just - I couldn't supply them very good. Wanda: Mm-hm.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Then of course, the government - you couldn't travel because you couldn't get stamps to travel.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: That's right.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah. You had to bootleg-<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Strange how we forget, isn't it?<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: You had to buy bootleg gasoline.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">[Both laugh]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur:God, you don't remember any of that stuff!<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh, well…a little...<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: A little...<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Some of the fringes about stamping, stamps and so forth.<br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: That was a disgrace. That's the reason I, I didn't go for this, ah, about this gasoline business this time. I didn't believe there was any shortage. There wasn't any shortage then. They claimed there wasn't any shortage then.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: All they were out to…try to stop you from travelin' or something. I guess they…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: There wasn't any shortage of gasoline; they had gasoline those days. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: And it doesn't seem as though there's any real shortage now. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No, I don't believe there isn’t any, probably isn't any real shortage now. They just…they'd like to have you believe that there was, and...</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Ayuh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: But there isn't - when you see the cars on the road, you know there isn't.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [chuckles] That’s certainly-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: They didn't raise the price of it much.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: No.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No. Now, that’s been-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: So now you, now you, ah, you've been in this one particular spot here for, what? 35 years?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: About…I guess about 35 years I've been here. I'm not dead sure, but I think about 35 years.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: When you first started on your own, where did you set up business?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Over in the old Savings Bank building, back of the Marine-Midland Bank. You know-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: The one between City Hall and, and, ah...I, I rented a room over there for, ah…for, ah, $20.00 a month.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [laughs]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: And I…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: To start with? </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: And I finally got in two rooms, then three rooms. And, ah, they bought, and, ah…that's when the old, that's when the old Binghamton Savings Bank was there.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Then they bought, then, uh, then they took over the, ah…which bank was it there? Um…another savings bank pretty near went flooey? Um, or over in the location where they are now. I can't name the bank. I oughta be able to.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: It wouldn't be the Citizen's…?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: …Bank?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur -the Citizen's was up along here. [Chenango St.]<br />Wanda: The People's Bank?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No, the, um...</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: People's Bank?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: There was a savings bank - another one, over there.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Huh. I'll have to look into that.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No, I can't name ‘em. But, they were going to go flooey, and, ah, the Binghamton Savings Bank…ah, took them over.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Then they eventually moved over there. Eventually moved over there.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: And that's now the Marine-Midland building, right? Arthur: No, no, no.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh, you’re telling-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Over - where the Savings Bank is now.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh, I see.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: There was, there was, there was, ah…another savings bank over there. Somebody could tell you that. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: But I, I can't.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: We'll have to look that up.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: ‘Cause Citizen's Bank was right along in here some where. They went flooey, too.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: They really folded, didn't they?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Ayuh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Ayuh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Ayuh, but the savings, the other one [Chenango Valley Savings Bank- 66 Exchange St.], was gonna fold, I guess. But they went.. the Binghamton Savings Bank took ‘em over…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: So that saved them.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: How did, how did the Depression affect your business? Were people willing to spend [unintelligible]?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: They didn't have any money and you couldn't, ah…no. There wasn't any business, hardly.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Bad times, huh?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah. Yes. Very, very...bad. 'Course, you could travel around the-then. I could travel around for, say, $35.00 a week. I could travel around and go, and be gone five days probably, for 35, $40.00.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: And, ah, now…now you go out 'n in one day you spend $50.00. Ridiculous!</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda:...Motels and that sort of thing.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: I stayed down in Corning the other night. And, ah, their rate, um…normally, maybe I'd get in there for 24 or $25.00. But, I ended up paying 30. And, ah, they said that's all they had.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: I hope that was a good night's sleep.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well…[chuckles] I slept pretty fair. I told them they could give me a room on the back 'n they gave me one on the front, but it was all right; I slept.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [laughs]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: It's a very beautiful hotel - or motel.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yes.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: That Hilton in, ah, Corning.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: It's very nice. It's a nice…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Do you do much traveling now?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Oh, I travel. Oh, three or four days, three or four days one week. And then maybe not much the next.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: And, ah..no, I keep, I go around... keep goin'.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: You to- you've had a very successful career, I should think.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No, I wouldn't say so.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, I know you're a well-respected businessman in Binghamton.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: [laughs] I don't know about that.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: …Who do you think influenced you the most... during your life? </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Hm…I…well, I think it was, ah, probably those people I worked for in Syracuse. I think, ah…they probably did, ayuh, in a way. Because they were quite, quite sucs, quite successful, and they were…kept themselves up in very good order, and, ah, and, ah…very, they were very successful. 'Course they, they built that business. When I worked for ‘em, they were doin', ah…oh, when I started, probably doing a half a million. And now they're doing 18 million.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: That's Keepsake Diamonds?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Ayuh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: There's one right there. [laughs]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Ayuh. Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, it did-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well, and so that probably influenced me. And the man in Europe taught me more about stones than anybody else. He’s…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: What is there to learn? I'm absolutely...I don't know anything about them. What is there to learn about diamonds, cutting and all that sort of thing?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Oh, there's so much to know that it's, it's, ah, pitiful. I mean…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [laughs] Not enough time today, eh?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Oh, no. You couldn't, ah…but it's color, and, and, ah…color and make and imperfection and, and everything goes into the, puttin' the value on ‘em. Everything. Very complicated, very complicated thing.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: I notice you have some pretty complicated looking machinery here, too. [chuckles]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Well, I - yeah. Yeah, a microscope. Yeah. On some of ‘em. And scales, and, and, ah…there's some of ‘em, ah…have more then I have. Now you're coming along to a period where they're bringing in these diamonds that are not diamonds, but, um…this, ah, uh, cubic zirconia. Ah, is a new material. And the hardness is way up there, and, ah, refractive index is, was, was way up, too. and that's, ah, that's really a fooler. More, a bigger fooler than they've ever had.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Is that right?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah. Bigger fooler than they've ever had.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: You mean there’s been others? [unintelligible]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Oh, there's other, been other things, sure. But this thing…this thing, it’s really got 'em a little worried, I think. [chuckles] </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Do they sparkle just as good as the other ones? Arthur: Well, ah, they can be a…it would be a job to, to separate ‘em.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Is that a fact?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yep. I don't own one; I'm gonna buy one. I'm gonna buy one or two of ‘em. But, I haven't.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: They aren't anywhere as near as, as expensive as diamonds, right? </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Oh no, no, no, no. No. No.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Diamonds are still good, solid investment, aren’t they?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Ayuh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Always probably will be.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Have been, I guess. I hope so.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Price goes up and up and up.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah. So much that you can't believe it.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, would you advise young people these days to get into the business that you're in?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No. I wouldn't.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: You wouldn't?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No. I think it's too, I think it's too difficult. Stores, you see, there’s, it's getting so there are very few stores.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah, very few stores. When I started out, you could go to…well, now the fellow from Greene does pretty good, but there was a store in Oxford that, they did just, just as well. Of course, the store in Norwich, that's all right. But, then there was Sherburne, there was Earlville, and there was Hamilton. Always had jewelry stores...and they don't now.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: That's true.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No. When I was a kid, you used to go to - or when I started, I’d go to Newark Valley and stay half a day. And, ah, then I'd go to Nichols and stay half a day. And, ah, get an order.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Is that right?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: But, you couldn't do that now.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Huh. Well, that's kinda sad, isn't it?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: In a way, yes. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yeah. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Those towns have...gone down markedly.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: How ‘bout this…original man that you said inspired you to become, get interested in jewelry in, in, ah, Chenango Forks…what kind of a place did he have? A jewelry-?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Oh, a little bit of a, of a, ah…watchmaking shop.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Was it in the old hotel there or what?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No, it was the next building beyond that hotel, and it's, eh, where the post office is built out - ah, the building is, ah, the front built out on it? </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Mm-hm, mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: That's where - Al Elliot, his name was.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: And, ah…ya know, he was…he was a pretty good watchmaker. He was a general mechanic.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Huh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Ayuh, he was…he was very, ah, good watchmaker, I think - but not a very good businessman, I don’t think. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [laughs] That’s-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Hey, he was long on guns. He could shoot…and, ah, he really could. He was a terrific marksman.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Huh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: So his store probably had a lot of other things besides watches in it, then.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Largely. Largely, I'd say. 'Twasn't much of a store.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [chuckles]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: As you think of it now, not much of a store. But, he made a living there. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Uh-huh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Had one of the first cars in Chenango Forks; an old, Maxwell car. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: [laughs]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: Ayuh.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: I'd like to see that again.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: You wouldn't see that, no.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, what, uh…anything more you wanna-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No, I don't want to-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: -tell us about, to…?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: I don't want to tell you any more.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: I've taken up quite a bit of your time already, anyway.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: No. I don't care about that.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, it's been very enjoyable and I want to thank you very much.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: But I didn’t tell you much.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh, I think you did.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Arthur: You do think so?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yes. </span></p>
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Interview with Arthur G. Rider
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Rider, Arthur -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Lancaster (Pa.); Jewelry; World War, 1939-1945; Diamonds; Jewelry trade; Jewelry stores; Wholesale trade
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An account of the resource
Arthur Rider speaks of his childhood in Chenango Bridge and of becoming interested in watchmaking. He went to school in Lancaster, Pennsylvania for training. He became a jewelry salesman for a company in Syracuse and travelled thoughout New York State. He later opened his own wholesale jewelry store in . He discusses the impact that World War II had upon his business, as he purchased diamonds from suppliers in Europe.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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audio/mp3
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English
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Recording 73
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Middle Eastern Oral History
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This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora.
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In copyright.
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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Date of Interview
June 30, 2019
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Joseph Seif
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Atef Hazar
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Duration
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65:17 minutes
Biographical Text
Atef was born and raised in Jdeidet Marjeyoun, a Christian town in South Lebanon. His parents, like many inhabitants of the town, held property in old Palestine before 1948 and were merchants. He was a teacher at the local school and was forced to flee the country due to the Lebanese Civil War. Atef is currently retired with his wife in upstate New York.
Keywords
Old Palestine, Lebanon, South Lebanon, Israeli Invasion, Education, Merchants, New York
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Interview with Atef Hazar
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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In copyright
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
10 May 2014
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Aysha Mohmmod
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
47:21 minutes
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghmaton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
Aysha is originally from Duhok. She moved to the United States after she married her husband, Idris. Aysha is has a degree in Elementary Teaching in Kurdistan. Although she lives with her husband and three children in the Binghamton area, she still occasionally visits her family in Kurdistan.
Keywords
Kurdistan; Iraq; Binghamton; Broome County; Education; Refugees; Turkish Camps; Kurdish Culture; Family; Islam; Religion; PKK; Peshmerga;
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Aysha Mohmmod
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 10 May 2014
Interview Setting: Aysha’s house in Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:00
AM: Me too. Um, I come here because I married my husband, and he come um from here to Kurdistan. He ask about me and our family ask about him uh and because he was nice person in Kurdish I married him I come to America, but of course everybody love uh his country better, like me I like my country better but– uh.
0:43
AD: Yeah, why?
0:43
AM: Because uh my family there, because eh do you know when say ghurba [gurbet in Turkish, place far from one’s homeland, foreign place, abroad], of course we like country but uh I want to be there stay here because my kids born in here and they like here they like finish school here, school in America is easier than Kurdistan. And if any time my kids wish, I go to back to Kurdistan because I miss my family, my dad, my brother, my sister.
1:28
AD: Yes.
1:28
AM: I do not want to live here; just I live here because my kids, my kid’s school, because um they like hear, they want to finish school here.
1:51
AD: But you want to go back?
1:54
AM: I want go to back of course, right now eh Kurdistan is beautiful and yes, when I said before my country, I like my country better of course, but what I can do. My kids are not going to go back. They born here, they like American school eh, we are going to go visit every two years, yes.
2:28
AD: Yeah, so but uh if, so, are you telling me if they stay here would you still go back?
2:39
AM: No, I cannot leave my kids here. Eh, I have to stay.
2:43
AD: But like when they get older?
2:46
AM: When they get older too. Never, because yes, Kurdish people are religious, we are Muslim I cannot leave my husband and my kids. Never. I wish I go to my country because I miss my family, my sister my brother my mom but I have to stay with my kids eh forever. Eh–
3:10
AD: Yeah, are you concerned about American culture that is going to affect your kids?
3:18
AM: No, because eh we like everybody, I like our religion I teach my kids inside about everything, like about our culture, Kurdish culture about eh our religion, no, they are not going to. They know we are Kurdish, we are Muslim. Elhamdülillah, we pray. They love Ramadan. This is about three years my kids pray and eh they love Ramadan. They have been fasting. In Ramadan.
04:11
AD: Yeah! Really?
04:12
AM: Yeah, last year we went to Kurdistan. Yes.
04:13
AD: How about here?
04:14
AM: Here too. Yes. My kids pray and they love our religion and like I before said we love everybody. But I think here because many Kurdish people live here, it looked like, to me it looked like Duhok, Binghamton look like my country Duhok. Because eh do you know eh I teach my kids like everything about their religion about Kurdish culture.
5:05
AD: So, how do you feel if they want to marry someone other than Kurdish?
5:11
AM: No, they have to listen to me. No, they have, she knows my daughter. She is so nice she is so smart. I teach her about this kind of eh, yes, no. Just God knows about marriage about this stuff, do you know? We say in Kurdish God knows everything. Before I do not know I am going to ̶
5:42
AD: Yes, same thing. Kader, kader [fate, destiny].
5:43
AM: Qedder, I do not know one day I am going to marry Idris and I am going to America. Yes, this is qedder but if I can I teach them right now, when you grow up inshallah you have to marry Kurdish people and nice person and he must be Muslim. I am going to tell him no.
6:07
AD: So, the person needs to be from Kurdistan, or let us say she found a Kurdish person from Iran or Kurdish person from Turkey.
6:16
AM: Yes, this is God knows and qedder.
6:22
AD: Is that Okay? Would you accept that?
6:26
AM: Okay yes, okay but of course we are going to ask about him. If he is a good person it does not matter whether he is Kurdish from Turkey, Kurdish from Syria Kurdish from Iran, or he must be Muslim first and.
6:48
AD: What if she picks someone from Pakistan? Not Kurdish but Muslim.
6:55
AM: No. [laughs] I am going to say no, because no. Not too far but first I have just one daughter and she knows everything, is so nice.
7:06
AD: Oh, what about boys?
7:07
AM: Boys too, boys too. To me same. I like my son, both my son, I like my daughter too, both same. I tell my son too, you have to when you want to be after eighteen years old when you have to like somebody in your country, you have to marry a Kurdish person–
7:31
AD: But do you know–
7:32
AM: And a nice girl–
7:34
AD: They are growing up here–
7:36
AM: Yes, I know–
7:37
AD: –They will go to school–
7:38
AM: –I know–
7:38
AD: –Maybe they will go to another college not this college, maybe they will go somewhere else and they will meet somebody over there.
7:48
AM: Yes, I know, but I am going to get mad at him forever. If they not listen to me. This is. They have to listen to me do you know. You have a daughter too, for example. If she did not listen to you, you are Turkish right?
8:11
AD: Well, I mean the thing is my thing is not for Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic or American. My thing is good person–
8:23
AM: Me too!
8:23
AD: –If I see the person, if I think the person is not good for her then–
8:31
AM: Yes, me too, yes–
8:32
AD: –I would say something, but if I think the person is good so I am not worried about it.
8:40
AM: Do you know I wish I could explain for you some more. I can say something in Kurdish language better.
8:51
AD: Yes, you can. Do you want to say it in Kurdish?
8:53
AM: Yes, I want to say in Kurdish because sometime my English not too. I wish I explain more.
9:04
AD: Aysha, let us do this. When you feel that you cannot answer tell me in Kurdish and either she can translate or I am going to ask Marwan to translate it later.
9:17
AM: Marwan?
9:20
AD: Yes, he is going to work with me he is a student. If you were a student I could easily hire you bet he is a student.
9:30
AM: Where he is?
9:31
AD: He is a PhD, he is doing his Doctorate.
9:35
AM: Oh, he is a student in the University?
9:37
AD: Yeah.
9:37
AM: I do not know him. Is he Sorani?
9:40
AD: He is Sorani.
9:43
AM: His name Marwan?
9:44
AD: Marwan, very nice, I will introduce you to him.
9:49
AM: I think I am going to tell my husband maybe he knows him. Do you know like? Yes, I wish I can explain more for you about my kids because I tell them every day inside different like when you go to school my kids, they are all friends it does not matter boy or girl inside the classroom and inside the school, okay? But when they come back they have to pray because you are Muslim. They have to do everything like Kurdish do. I tell them do not say I am, because I am in America I am not going to pray. Because I am in America I am going to like for example I am going to wear like–
10:43
AD: Tattoo.
10:43
AM: –Not tattoo, like clothes. I tell my daughter if you want you cannot swim anymore with boy. She says okay mummy. They listen to me. They know where I am from; they know something this is not good, this is good. This is shame or you have to be shy for something. They, for example, she is smart she listens to me. For example, you can do everything when your friends she is in America she is for example American people when they get fourteen years old they have a boyfriend.
11:32
AD: I know I am not saying.
11:33
AM: She cannot do stuff like that
11:35
Angelique: People in my age have boyfriend.
11:36
AM: Her friend she is American, she has boyfriend already. She cannot do because in our country this is Haram and shame and not good.
11:50
AD: Well, my, my approach on that Aysha is not religious to me is like if you focus on boys at this age then you will not do well in school, and if you do not do well at school, then you will fail in this life. That is how I look at it.
12:09
AM: Yes, I tell her, I know you are born in America, you are Kurdish-American people for example, but you have to be look like me. And for example, my daughter I tell her many times you have to be, before you get married, you have to be virgin. You have to be a nice girl. You cannot take a boyfriend when you will be fourteen years old. You have to listen to me. When you pick one, me and your father when we say he is good, he is going to be a good husband to you, then you can say yes mummy. If we say no, you cannot marry this person; it does not matter if he is Kurdish or Arabic–
13:06
AD: So, you listened to your parents in Kurdish culture–
13:10
AM: Yes, yes of course.
13:11
AD: –And then you say this will continue.
13:14
AM: Yes, I think everywhere good people they listen to their parents and family and everybody has like his culture and his family right. Like inside every home not look like outside, do you know?
13:39
AD: Yeah, Yeah.
13:42
AM: Right now, my kids are very good and they know everything and listen to me and um I take them to Kurdistan every two year. They love my family. They love my sister and brother. They want to visit some time but they did not like to live there because they said the school is hard there we do not have friends there. My kid’s friends are all here–
14:11
AD: Let me ask you. What did not you like in Kurdistan? Huh?
14:22
AM’s daughter: Uh that is tough.
14:25
AD: Tough?
14:26
AM’s daughter: Um, like it is too hot or like sometimes–
14:30
AM: What did you like?
14:31
AD: So, it is too hot.
14:32
AM: You liked the summer, [in Kurdish] ‘Talk! You do not have to be shy.”
14:40
AM’s daughter: it is too hot. I like the school here better. The school there are, I went with my cousin when she got her card to know whether she pass or not, and her school was not fun I think like. Yeah.
14:57
AD: So, she told you about her school and you made comparison with your school system here?
15:06
AM: Everything is different.
15:08
AM’s daughter: No, I just went with her.
15:11
AD: Oh, you went to her school?
15:12
AM: Yes, my sister’s daughter?
15:14
AD: Oh, you went to her school to see how it is over there?
15:17
AM’s daughter: Yes.
15:18
AD: What did you mean hard? Hard meaning?
15:19
AM’s daughter: it is hot not hard.
15:22
AD: So, it is hot, how about the school? What didn’t you like about her school?
15:34
AM’s daughter: like, I do not know. It was not like the school like each route goes to another room you have to go outside.
15:41
AD: Okay.
15:42
AM: Of course, different, everything is different. The law, the school they have, when I was student in Kurdistan they give us every day many, many homework. Sometime I take my book and notebook about more than ten. They come back from school I tell them please do your homework, do you have a homework? They say yes, they just she have one paper. She finishes in about ten to fifteen minutes they say mummy I am done. I say how. When I was student in middle school I read sometime about two hours, four hours before we go to school. In here school is very easy.
16:29
AD: Easy and more fun right?
16:31
AM: More fun.
16:32
Angels: More freedom.
16:33
AM: More freedom yes.
16:34
Angels: A funny thing is, in social studies we are learning about the world and now we are doing the Arab world. However, before that we were doing Rome and there was only one paragraph about the Etruscans and she told me that studied for a year about the Etruscans then the social studies put this only in one paragraph.
17:02
AM: Yes. Do you know we like America because of the law? Right? In Kurdistan, uh right now is safe is beautiful is look to me like a heaven, because I love my country I love my family I love Kurdish people but we do not have a law. You know the law not to– yes–
17:31
AD: I understand.
17:33
AM: Here we are safe, our kids are safe.
17:39
AD: And it is like more freedom.
17:42
AM: More freedom, yes.
17:51
AD: And you have rights; you have more rights here yeah? That’s why; That is better for you children.
17:55
AM: Yes, yes.
17:58
AD: That is make a lot of sense. Of course.
18:07
AM: Yes, here is better than Kurdistan for our children, for–
18:14
AD: Aysha tell me, so do you think like when you are living in Kurdistan do you think your life is different here, I mean obviously you were not married when you lived in Kurdistan, I am not talking about that. Like how is your life here comparing to Kurdistan, like you still carry all your Kurdishness with you right? So, you are not any less of a Kurd because you live here but you are not in Kurdistan anymore you are in America. So, did you make some changes in your life here, like more modern let me say, how was your life in your family were you very traditional?
19:11
AM: Yes, I was living with my family–
19:14
AD: Yes, but were they very traditional? Your parents?
19:19
AM: – My parents it was very good parents; they let us go to school. I was, eh to me it was like America. I was free. They did not tell me you have to wear hijab, no they did not tell me. But they right now, me too; I tell my daughter like this good way and this is bad. If you want, you have to take good way. My parents too were very good parents–
19:59
AD: So, your mother was covering her head?
20:01
AM: Yes.
20:02
AD: But she did not push you?
20:04
AM: No, she told me if you want because we are Muslim, if you want please pray, if you want fast in Ramadhan, if you want marry for example your cousin if you do not know just we going to tell you this is good person for you and this is not. They did not tell me you have to, no. Our family, all my relatives it was very nice to me. Me and my brother were the same. You go to school I graduate I was a teacher for ten years. I pick my husband, they did not pick for me. Yes.
20:50
AD: But that is not very common in Kurdistan, right? Usually family picks the–
20:57
AM: Not all families, some. A long time ago, right now no. Right now, girl pick. Of course, she has to ask her parents. Before, yes like my mother’s time about fifty years ago, long time ago, they [parents] tell her you have to marry this one, this is good. But right now, no.
21:25
AD: I see, not right now.
21:26
AM: In my age too, no they tell me if you want marry your cousin because a lot of my cousins, my relatives, many people came but I told them no. I do not like this one, you look like my brother. I do not like my cousin. I feel he looked like my brother and I am not going to marry him. My father and my mum they did not tell me you have to marry your cousin. I told him No, I have to graduate I have to go to school and I was, eh if I want sometime I wear Hijab, if I do not like it I am not going to wear it. I was free in Kurdistan too. Not like other families.
22:45
AD: Because there are some families serious–
22:18
AM: There are some families now too. Yes.
22:20
AD: Yeah, they are all covered.
22:25
AM: You have to wear Hijab in some families, but not our family. If I want I am going to put Hijab
22:38
AD: And also, girls [door opens] Oh, Idris is here?
22:42
AM: Yes. [laughs]
22:43
AD: Hi Idris.
22:45
Idris: Hi. How are you?
22:48
AM: [in Kurdish] “Come in! You speak too.”
22:50
AD: How are you, I am learning Aysha’s story. I did not know you had such a tough life Idris.
22:54
AM: [in Kurdish] “Come in! You speak too.”
22:56
Idris: Yeah!
22:56
AD: Yeah? So, you lived in Turkey? I did not know that.
23:00
Idris: Yes, I lived in Turkey for four years.
23:03
AD: Four years? So, you went there after Halabja?
23:10
AM: In 1988–
23:11
AD: So Halabja was in your village?
23:13
Idris: No, a little bit far.
23:15
AM: No, Halabja is next to like eh–
23:16
Idris: It is close to Iran.
23:18
AD: Close to Iran.
23:19
AM: Sulaymaniyah.
23:20
AD: Sulaymaniyah.
23:21
Idris: Yes, close to Sulaymaniyah and Iran.
23:24
AD: But why did you guys leave, why were you so afraid? They were going to come after your village?
23:33
Idris: Anfal.
23:33
AD: Anfal, okay. So, you left because of Anfal,
23:39
Idris: Yeah.
23:39
AM: It was Anfal and they were living in a village.
23:42
Idris: In 1988 yeah.
23:44
AM: And he was Peshmerga, yes Anfal.
23:48
AD: Okay. Who was Peshmerga?
23:49
AM: Kurdish people.
23:51
AD: I know I know, but was his father Peshmerga?
23:56
AM: He can answer.
23:58
AD: But that was just way of life. I know many– Was your father Peshmerga Idris?
24:09
Idris: Long time, during (19)75, (19)74, (19)60.
24:15
AD: Yeah. So, how, did you walk to Turkey? Or did you get–
24:19
Idris: Walking.
24:20
AD: You walked to Turkey?
24:22
AM: Yes.
24:24
AD: Oh my God.
24:25
AM: Me too in 19 ̶ and actually it was 1990 or–
24:29
AD: 1991 right after the Gulf war.
24:34
AM: Yes. Second Anfal.
24:36
AD: I talked to many people, they all walked.
24:39
AM: I am not sure 1990 or 1991.
24:46
AD: How did they treat you in Turkey? Where they–
24:51
Idris: We were on a camp.
24:55
AD: You were just there, they did not allow you to go out of the camps, right? Jandarma [gendarme] was there.
25:00
Idris: Jandarma was there.
25:03
AM: They were scary jandarma. I remember jandarma.
25:10
AD: So, them after four years where did you go? Come here?
25:14
Idris: Come here.
25:16
AM: 1992.
25:18
AD: Really? Oh wow.
25:20
AM: They first went to Dallas.
25:22
AD: So, when Gulf war was happening you were already in Turkey?
25:27
Idris: Yeah.
25:27
AD: So, you missed all that action happening in Iraq, you already–
25:34
Idris: No, we left in 1988, we stayed in Turkey till 1992.
25:39
AD: So how was, this is. I never met anyone who left in 1988 went to Turkey, was there your only choice?
25:51
Idris: all the Kurdish people–
25:52
AM: [in Kurdish] “How many families were there?”
25:53
AD: No, they all told me they went to Turkey or Iran after the Gulf war.
25:56
AM: In (19)90 yes.
25:59
Idris: Yes, that was the second
26:00
AM: Second Anfal.
26:01
AD: I never talked to anyone so far that they went to Turkey in 1988.
26:09
Idris: That was us in (19)88.
26:12
AM: [in Kurdish] “Ours was in 1990 or 1991?”
26:14
Idris: This one and the other people like ran and his family that was 1991.
26:18
AD: Yes, everybody I talked to Reving today, do you know Reving, he is what?
26:20
Idris: He is from my village.
26:34
AD: How come he did not leave in 1988? Now I need to go back to Reving and ask him that question.
26:45
AM: – Idris- Because they lived in Duhok.
26:48
AD: Oh, that is right he was in Duhok. That is right he told me.
26:50
Idris: We are on the Peshmerga’s site. That is different.
26:52
AM: Peshmerga scare from Saddam’s regime to kill them. I was student. I was not scared. I was in school. I did not do anything because I was not Peshmerga, he was Peshmerga, they ran away from Saddam Hussein.
27:11
AD: You were Peshmerga.
27:12
Idris: Oh me.
27:12
AD: That is, I never met any Peshmerga before. But were you always on the mountains?
27:21
Idris: Yeah. Always.
27:29
AD: That is a tough life.
27:31
AM: With his family in his village.
27:32
AD: That was a tough life was not it?
27:33
AM: Yes.
27:34
AD: Do you have any pictures?
27:36
Idris: No, not me.
27:37
AD: No?
27:37
Idris: I was young, I was thirteen years old.
27:41
AD: And you were a Peshmerga?
27:44
Idris: Yeah.
27:44
AD: At the age of thirteen.
27:50
Idris: I was the youngest one. I mean from all the Peshmergas I was the youngest one.
27:52
AD: Oh my God, but Peshmerga was different or is different than PKK [The Kurdistan Workers' Party; Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê]?
28:04
Idris: Yeah, they are different. Peshmerga is in the North of Iraq it is different. PKK is different of Turkey.
28:06
AD: Yeah it is different because women can join PKK I do not think you had female Peshmerga.
28:16
Idris: That time nobody sees PKK, only Peshmerga and Saddam’s regimes fighting.
28:23
AD: So that is why you had to run away because they that said Saddam-
28:23
Idris: They used the chemicals.
28:33
AD: Do you know anyone died because of the chemical weapon?
28:36
Idris: A lot of people died.
28:39
AD: I mean personally.
28:41
Idris: Halabja.
28:42
AD: No, no like did you lose any family members?
28:48
Idris: No, not my family.
28:51
AD: I know many people died but you do not know personally anyone. So, you were safe because you were in school–
29:01
AM: Yes, do you know the people lived in village they were not safe. They ran away to Turkey in 1988. We were safe because we lived in Duhok like a big city. We were in school. We were like, we did not do anything. We were not Peshmerga. Just we were student and other like teachers.
29:32
AD: Yes, I understand.
29:34
AM: Just Peshmerga’s families they scared Saddam. They can kill them. They had to run.
29:46
AD: When I talk to people what understood was there was a lot of fear; people were afraid, most of the time and Saddam was number one reason they were so afraid. Do you agree with that? Like whoever I talk to, that’s the sense I get. They were like really afraid Saddam and then they were afraid of all these uprisings, you know battles you know losing family members, death it is like, you agree with that?
30:32
AM: Saddam Hussein yes, first reason. He was not, I told you before, he was not bad for Kurdish people bad for Arabs too. He Killed many Shiite even his family.
30:56
AD: Was not he from Kirkuk. I thought he was from Kirkuk
31:01
AM: Saddam, No. Tikrit, South of Iraq, next to Mosul.
31:08
AD: You know that is where they were thinking he was hiding remember when he disappeared.
31:14
AM: Yes, his village Tikrit. Yes, after Saddam Hussein, right now Kurdistan is safe look like heaven; it’s beautiful.
31:28
AD: But you still think the United States is like safer and you have more rights here? For you for your kids. Yeah?
31:38
AM: Yeah, yes, of course.
31:40
AD: Today I also learned that, I did not know that Sharia was still in effect in Kurdistan like man could marry more than woman. I did not know that it that was still in effect.
31:57
AM: It is not just Kurdistan. It is halal for Muslim people.
32:01
AD: I know but I did not know, but I did not think.
32:05
AM: Because it is halal if you have a reason.
32:08
AD: That is not halal that is Haram.
32:13
AM: No, God says in Qur’an Kareem it is halal, Idris can marry four, but if he has a reason; if I am not good, if I do not have a kid, if I am like very sick I cannot do anything for him, if I am not a good woman he can marry next one. If I do not have any problem he cannot, it is haram. But in Qur’an Kareem God says that, not us or any other people; God say–
32:46
AD: I thought it was different for Kurdish people, I know that the case for many Arabs.
32:55
AM: This is not Kurdish or Arabic, this is religion; God says men can marry four women if they have a reason.
33:03
AD: But Reving told me that you have to allow him.
33:07
AM: Yes.
33:08
AD: I have to give him permission. If you do not give him permission, then he cannot.
33:14
AM: Yes, if women say no, you cannot marry, he cannot. Yes, I told you if he has a reason
33:23
AD: But not in this country?
33:28
AM: I swear I see every night in American channel, he saved me and my five wives.
33:40
AD: Which channel?
33:41
AM: Channel 62, every night.
33:50
AD: That is not legal. You can only have one wife and one husband.
34:00
AM: Yes
34:01
AD: That is– some Mormons in Utah, it is illegal its polygamy. It is illegal.
34:02
AM: Yes.
34:03
AD: But so anyway I am learning, so I did not think that was the case for Kurdistan.
34:21
AM: Kurdistan too. We know some Kurdish have three women.
34:27
AD: You know somebody actually?
34:29
AM: I know one person in here. Ezaddin has two wives.
34:35
Idris: No no,
34:36
AD: Here?
34:37
Idris: No no.
34:38
AM: [Speaking in Kurdish].
34:40
AD: I do not know those people, do not worry, do not worry. Do not give any names but anyway even if you would give me the names I would not know that.
34:52
AM: Yes.
34:53
AD: But some people have that.
34:56
AM: Yes, some people have three wives.
34:58
AD: Yeah, that is okay.
35:00
AM: Yes, for someone they can marry another one. If she have a problem.
35:06
AD: But women work in Kurdistan, you worked in school.
35:10
AM: Yes, right now Kurdistan looks like Europe. Looks like Istanbul. Right now.
35:20
AD: Yeah?
35:21
AM: Yes, before when Saddam Hussein was president, no. We even we could not have satellite. Nobody had satellite. Nobody had internet. Nobody had cell phone. Some family had phone at home. But after Saddam Hussein, right now if you go to Kurdistan, it is safe and beautiful, looks like Europe.
35:55
AD: Yes, I want to go to Kurdistan.
35:57
AM: Right now, very rich people in Kurdistan.
36:02
AD: Yeah, so. It was tough.
36:14
AM: We want to go back. I do not like here.
36:17
AD: Idris do you want to go back to Kurdistan to live there?
36:20
Idris: I want to go back one day?
36:21
AD: One day? But how about your kids if they say they are not going to–
36:26
Idris: My kids do not like there.
36:28
AM: They are not going to come, if they come I am going to leave tomorrow. But they say the school.
36:31
AD: But that, AM you told me they have more rights here.
36:38
AM: Yes.
36:39
AD: So, if they say they want to go back like going back is it good for them? It is not good for them.
36:47
AM: No not good.
36:48
AD: Not good? Because they have more freedom.
36:50
AM: More freedom here, school better. They were born here. They like to go to Kurdistan for visit sometime, every two year may be. But they do not want to live there. Everything is different. Yes.
37:08
AD: Yes, it is different because they are from here.
37:12
AM: We have to stay here because of the kids, because the school, because it is safe.
37:23
AD: So, your sister’s daughter is in Nashville?
37:27
AM: Yes, she is in Nashville right now.
37:29
AD: Do you have any other family members here?
37:31
AM: Nashville.
37:32
AD: In Nashville?
37:33
AM: We know many Kurdish people in Nashville.
37:35
AD: No, no your family.
37:36
AM: My family no, just my sister and her family, her husband, she lives in Nashville, TN.
37:47
AD: Oh really? So, you could go visit your sister, too right?
37:49
AM: Yes, we can.
37:53
Idris: No, her sister not, her niece is there.
37:55
AD: Her niece is there?
37:56
AM: I am her aunt. She is my sister’s daughter.
38:01
AD: So only you and your niece are in the United States? Do you have any family members?
38:09
Idris: No.
38:09
AM: Just her, she is close to me.
38:12
AD: How about you?
38:13
Idris: I have a lot.
38:16
AD: So, Idris when did you when did you come here?
38:20
Idris: In (19)92.
38:21
AD: Oh, you came in (19)92? That is right. So, you came way before everybody came here.
38:28
Idris: I came before all Kurdish people here just my family my uncle Tahir, and the other Uncle Khalid and my cousin Loqman–
38:47
AD: So, are you related to Reving?
38:51
Idris: Not too close.
38:53
AD: Same tribe, are you guys in the same tribe?
38:57
Idris: Same tribe.
38:59
AD: Yeah? Because tribe– everybody is part of a tribe, right?
39:01
Idris: I mean it is like my grandpa’s cousin, not me and him, but grandpa’s cousin.
39:11
AD: Yeah, so you lived your life in mountains basically and then refugee camps then you came here?
39:22
Idris: Yeah. Not all my life, part of it. It is like ten years old.
39:34
AD: So, you were in your village until you were ten years old then.
39:47
Idris: No, we lived in Zakho and village, yeah.
39:51
AM: Kurdistan just like Duhok, Erbil and Sulaymaniyah like big city, other all villages. Like nice village have everything like electricity.
40:03
AD: Oh really?
40:04
AM: Yes.
40:04
AD: That is good.
40:06
AM: Yes, if you go to our village like Bamarne. It is nice like here.
40:13
AD: Because eve n today I do not think every village in east Turkey has electricity, road and water.
40:21
AM: Right now, yes. Kurdistan too has everything.
40:23
Idris: If you see the villages in Kurdistan right now it is better than city.
40:26
AD: I know all the construction going on right now, it is booming.
40:29
AM: Right now, everybody likes village.
40:33
Idris: You know some people have houses in two million dollars. And you cannot buy the same house here in five million dollars.
40:44
AM: If you go to Kurdistan now you going to say I am not going to go back to Binghamton. Looks like heaven. I wish I go now because our kids, because school we cannot. We have to stay here.
41:08
AD: Stay here! So, do you think since you got here, I asked that Aysha, let me ask you this, since you have been living here do you think your Kurdishness came out more or did you lose any of your Kurdishness since you have been living here for a long time, over twenty years?
41:31
Idris: Yes.
41:33
AD: Are you less of a Kurd? Or are you even like more feeling more Kurdish? Like your Kurdish identity even came out stronger or did you lose any?
41:45
AD: You do not know?
41:50
AM: Not me. Do you know when we are here, I feel like I have not lost anything like I am Kurdish when I told you before. Everything the same, our religion, our inside home. But when we went to Kurdistan, we saw a little bit difference. They did not look like before. They are different people, they are very rich people. We are different.
42:32
AD: I see.
42:33
AM: When we went to Kurdistan for visit, yes.
42:36
AD: So, they changed not you.
42:38
AM: They changed not us, yes, they changed
42:43
AD: Laughs.
42:43
AM: Because they do not look like us anymore.
42:44
AD: Now they are rich. Money does that ha?
42:48
AM: Yes, they have changed a lot, when we go, we saw a difference like they are better than us.
42:52
AD: I see.
42:57
AM: They get rich, they have nice car, mansions. Kurdistan now is beautiful, but still not safe. Here is better. Here safer and better for Kids, for us and more freedom and yes.
43:20
AD: So, do you feel, actually I need to ask that Idris as well since he has been working forever over there; do you feel, like when you were working, or Idris now you are still working so do you feel that people exclude you?
43:52
AM: What do you mean?
43:53
AD: Can you tell that what I mean? Like do you feel they treat you differently because you are not American?
44:05
AM: When you work somewhere.
44:07
AD: Or when, I mean like you know like he is Kurdish or she is Kurdish–
44:17
AM: Because we are not from here, you mean?
44:24
AD: Yes, do you feel that, do you feel that you are an outsider?
44:27
AM: Yes, I feel.
44:28
AD: You do?
44:29
AM: Yes,
44:30
AD: Okay, give me some example like what happened that, but is it because you are Kurd or It is because you are a foreigner, I am drinking that, [laughs]-
44:40
AM: I feel that when I work somewhere like a factory, I feel that I am not American, I feel that this is not my country, I feel some people mean to us sometimes, some are very good. Everywhere have good people and bad people, sometime have very mean people because I think sometime because I am not from here, or sometime maybe they say because she is a Muslim.
45:19
AD: I see.
45:20
AM: Yes.
45:21
AD: How about you Idris? Do you feel that?
45:24
Idris: Oh me?
45:25
AD: Yeah.
45:26
Idris: Of course, how about you?
45:28
AD: I do, but I do not want you to give you my answer, of course I do.
45:33
AM: Yeah, everybody, we like our country better.
45:36
AD: But do you think it is because–
45:37
Idris: Do you know what? I like here, but the thing is I like my country better than here. I born there all my family are there, my language my culture everything is different. As I tell you I am being honest with you now still there is, it is not like here freedom, still fighting there. No more fight, everything is safe I am going back tomorrow, why I am going to staying here?
46:30
AD: So, you feel that.
46:31
Idris: Yes.
46:32
AM: Yes, everybody. Yes everybody
46:35
AD: But I mean, Okay, you feel that because you are an immigrant or you feel that because you are Kurdish, do they even know what Kurdish is around here?
46:46
AM: Not because Kurdish no, because you are immigrant.
46:48
AD: Because you are immigrant.
46:50
AM: Because some American do not like Muslims.
47:00
AD: Especially after 9/11, right?
47:04
AM: Yes, yes. And everywhere have good people and bad people even in Kurdistan, but here because not our country yes, we feel it.
(End of interview)
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Interview with Aysha Mohmmod
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Binghamton University
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2012-01-26
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Barbara Cox Easley
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Barbara Cox Easley is a civil rights activist most known for her involvement with the Black Panther Party while attending San Francisco State University. She worked in the Oakland, C.A., Philadelphia, P.A., New York, N.Y., and international chapters for the Party. She also participated in several survival programs hosted by the Party. Easley continues her dedication to social work and political activism today."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Barbara Easley-Cox is a civil rights activist most known for her involvement with the Black Panther Party while attending San Francisco State University. She worked in the Oakland, C.A., Philadelphia, P.A., New York, N.Y., and international chapters for the Party. She also participated in several survival programs hosted by the Party. Easley continues her dedication to social work and political activism today.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"March on Washington; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; The Black Panthers; Weatherwomen; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Stokely Carmichael; Music."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">March on Washington; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; The Black Panthers; Weatherwomen; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Stokely Carmichael; Music.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
217:23
Subject LCSH
Civil rights workers; Black Panther Party; Easley, Barbara Cox--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Barbara Cox-Easley
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 26 January 2012
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(Start of Interview)
00:01
SM: I got two of them, and I keep checking them every so often. First question, what do you think of the 1960s, and the 1970s? What is the first thing that comes to your mind? And how would you describe the time from your own life experiences?
00:24
BCE: A raising of consciousness? I think the March on Washington was 1963, I think. And that seemed to bring a nationwide attention to the whole question of civil rights, education, that type of thing. I was in California the latter part of (19)63.
00:59
SM: You want to turn that TV off?
01:00
BCE: Oh, yeah.
01:04
SM: Okay. And I check things, every-
01:10
BCE: Give me uh, read that question again.
01:13
SM: When you think of the (19)60s and (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? How would you describe the time from your own life experiences?
01:24
BCE: As stated, the March on Washington in (19)63, was an eye opener. I myself, I was living in, I had moved to California the latter part of (19)63. I was aware of the concept of not being able to get a job because they were not hiring Blacks at that time. But after the March, I applied for a job with the Pacific telephone company, and I was hired immediately. And I always attributed that to Martin Luther King and his group was soldiers, to people who were on the frontline at that time. Now in (19)66, or maybe a little earlier, I attended San Francisco State Community College. And then I transferred to San Francisco State College. And that was the beginning of the student uprising, the Black Student Union at San Francisco State, and it spread like wildfire across this country. And in 1967, early part of (19)67, I was introduced to the Black Panther Party. So, in a matter of seven years, before 1970, I had gone from a nice Catholic girl to a revolutionary-revolutionary comma radical feminist. I mean, my own personal growth was amazing in that period of time, but it was all in connection with the broader social, and cultural environment. And I was very fortunate that I was around people who were the leadership of many of the movements. Yeah.
03:57
SM: How did your parents respond to that? From being that Catholic girl in high school to being- and you went to high school in California?
04:03
BCE: So [inaudible] I was born and raised in Philadelphia. I think it frightened my mother, but I do not think it frightened my father because he had made a statement years ago- because I am a daddy's girl, and I grew up under him- he will never have to worry about me, because he knew I had common sense. He died in (19)69. And let me back to Philadelphia for a few moments.
04:51
SM: Now again, that was from going from Philly to San Francisco.
04:55
BCE: Listen. My father introduced me to a very nice young man who was a soldier. And I had been writing him for one year. And he came back and he made me an offer I could not refuse. He said, "I want to get married, because I do not want to be looking for women out on the streets. But you cannot have children for five years, and you must go back to school." I said, "Okay." So, I thought it was a very good opportunity to leave my mother's house. You know, the [inaudible] fourth [inaudible], that was just amazing. And for five years, we stayed married, and at the end of the five years, we were still friends. To this day, we are still friends. His wife and daughter call me I mean, it is amazing. But he made me go back to school, I started night school. But we were always talking about events that you see on the nightly news. So, besides my father, he was the only other- not only man, but one of the first men in my life to make you a partner in life, you know, educate you, update you. Otherwise, I would have been an empty-headed little cutie. So that was how I got to San Francisco. But at the end of the five years, unfortunately, I had outgrown him as it often happens. And but we thought it friends I mean, I served him the divorce papers. So, you know.
06:48
SM: Yeah, it says here, how did you become who you are? And I mentioned this, I say your growing up years, your high school, your college, who your role models and your mentors. And of course, you already mentioned how you got to San Francisco, Oakland area and, how did you become a female Black Panther- so-so you were right now out in California, and you meet these people who were more worldly than this gentleman. And that kind of-
07:15
BCE: Um. [disagreement]
07:15
SM: -more political more–?
07:17
BCE: It was not more worldly or more political at the time. It was that I had gathered some inner strength. You see, I was not afraid to move out on my own. I never have been, come to think of it. But my sister had moved to California and she was living with me along with several other women. So, it did not strike me as that big a deal. Also, Emily and I had become friends because gone to school together. And he was sort of the first person I knew that was in that Black Panther thing, and–
08:16
SM: He was going to the community college too, or San Francisco State?
08:20
BCE: I think it was community, I would have to ask my sister because she will remember that part much better. But the student movement on campus at that time and the history books, tell some of the story. It was always so busy. But I would go and do whatever I could do. But I was not taking a leadership role, even though there were women there what doing that and I chose to shift my attention to the Black Panther Party. I found them to be, I do not want to use the word exciting, but fast moving, fast paced. You know, they had the newspaper, they were opening up offices. And I also, and we also had introduced me to my future husband, Donald, Donald Cox or DC as they call them. So, I had moved in with DC or no he had moved in with me. That was what the feeling was. And I was kept busy with Panther activity, the breakfast program newspaper, selling the newspaper, political education classes. At one point I had gotten into some trouble, because I was a little petty bourgeoisie. [laughter] And you know that some of that Catholic background coming up, you know, you hear all the stories about sexism and you hear all that. But I was, at one point, I had a 10-point platform and program on how to conduct yourself in my house, on the door! Oh boy, they used to- I used to rile, but at any rate they had suggested I do, I think was a week or two weeks of 24-hour duty. So that means you go to breakfast programs, you go to sell papers, then you come back to the office and you cook, and then you work overnight, doing something. And I chose to do political education places, that meant-
10:56
SM: And what did that entail?
10:59
BCE: Generally, the younger members or new members, you would take Mao Zedong's red book, several of the books that were good, but Mao Zedong was the main book at that time, and even the newspaper, and you would read and discuss what you read, make it pertinent to today, frame of reference so that people could understand. You know, when you talk about Marx and Lenin and Stalin, and [inaudible], you need a dictionary. And many of our members were very young, you know, educated but not. And some of these books and words, they had no experience.
11:53
SM: What was the age of these-this group?
11:56
BCE: I would say 15. I would actually say 15. Because Lumiere for 15, when he joined.
12:06
SM: [inaudible] this book
12:06
BCE: Yes, oh I am in this book too, yeah, I am in here, but that is another story. So, they were like 15. And because youth, even our youth is a very romantic time in your life. Right, you are invulnerable, you are going to live forever, and you are going to accomplish so much. So, the youth made up a large majority of rank and file members. Now, the older members, and I would actually include myself in that in terms of what was I, 25, 26. Life experience had taught me certain things. And if I read something, and I believed in it, that, you know, those were my guidelines. And, however, as my father had told me, many years ago, I never hit you, let no man hit you. So, joining the Black Panther Party did not present a problem to me, because I know you put your hand, I am going to get you.
13:32
SM: So, you were a stronger–
13:34
BCE: I- you could not verbally or physically abuse me. And but because I was associated with Don Cox, and he was to field motion on the Central Committee,
13:47
SM: Right?
13:47
BCE: Nobody ever really bothered me.
13:50
SM: This is an important point is no one was really brought up, because I have seen Bobby speak live, I have seen Bobby speak like four times-
13:56
BCE: Go ahead.
13:57
SM: –from when I was young, and then older, but that most of the people that you were trying to educate and prepare, -and also the individuals that were older than-that they all had a strength within them. You know, they there is this image of this toughness, and, you know, the pigs and all this other stuff. But there is also a sense, I get a sense of self confidence, not arrogance, self-competence, and being proud of who one is. And to make sure that is the most important thing, proud of your background.
14:30
BCE: Well–
14:30
SM: What were you trying with instill in all these recruits?
14:33
BCE: But see, that was the period of the early (19)60s. Black is beautiful, James Brown.
14:41
SM: Right.
14:44
BCE: What was going on, Marvin Gaye, the group from Philadelphia. People getting ready for the train to Jordan. I mean, that whole period of time was- especially for the youth- very much like Rent became back in late (19)70s, okay. Of course, I am not sure it led them-them in the right direction. But–
15:12
SM: Right.
15:13
BCE: But that period of time built up something and a lot of young people, and-and I do not think it was just the Panthers or African Blacks, it was Latinos. Everybody was getting a sense of their history which had been denied to them. So that rapid growth from (19)60 to (19)75, yeah. And it has not gone away. See, it has not gone away. It is still here. But I would say that we were so intent. So, driven by the free Huey movement, we were constantly seeing other activity, whether it was Black, white, Spanish, speaking from this example. And then I think, for me, it was the heroes of not just the civil rights movement, yes, civil rights movement, because Stokely came from there, rap came from there, Fred Hampton out of Chicago came from there. So, Bobby and Huey, who were very dynamic, dynamic–
16:54
SM: Smart.
16:55
BCE: Smart.
16:55
SM: I know he was a smart–
16:57
BCE: And Eldridge [Cleaver], when Eldridge came-
17:00
SM: Yeah, he was smart too.
17:01
BCE: You see, and all of these people running around the country. But they were ours. So yes, we did stick our chest out a lot. And some fantastic things were done. You remember the whole [inaudible] between Jane Fonda, and the French woman- I cannot remember her name-, Leonard Bernstein. A lot of the musicians, if we had a function, maybe they would come, you see. So, California at that time, was-usually the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, but the sun was in the West coming to the East. Now, but on the East Coast, New York with its own fabulous African American Black history that goes all the way back to Marcus Garvey. By the time the Panthers came to the East Coast, they embraced it because they were already there. They were, they already knew history. So certain, you know, other communities. Like they might have liked the leather jacket and the man with the straw, that thing. But and then, too, we were ambassadors. And that, for me became a very good thing because by my husband being the Field Marshal, he traveled all over the country. And every chance I got, but New York, and Philadelphia, and especially Philadelphia. When I came here, that was when I met Amir and the people in Philadelphia chapter, and I also met Merriam and Bill Sadler, who became my bubby and my- Bill was killed right after the split. William Sadler was killed and I was overseas I could not come back because it was too dangerous and I always felt the split was the reason he was killed because wherever I was, him and his wife, they were right, Barbara will get it Barbara do not worry about it.
19:41
SM: Was that (19)82 around?
19:43
BCE: No, the split was-we had the babies in (19)70, (19)71– we tried to go to Germany and we had to wait. That was the early part of us (19)71, he was killed.
20:00
SM: Right here in Philly?
20:01
BCE: Yes. If you put, if you Google William, Merriam Sadler, you will come across. But that was a very hurting thing for me.
20:18
SM: Was it that was around the same time Fred Hampton was.
20:21
BCE: No, he was-
20:22
SM: He was killed in-
20:23
BCE: (19)60, um, Fred Hampton was killed-
20:27
SM: We know he was killed in-
20:29
BCE: (19)69.
20:33
SM: He was probably too much of a threat to oh–
20:35
He was just a brilliant young man.
20:39
SM: What- One of the things I want to mention as an African American female-
20:44
BCE: Yes.
20:45
SM: -in this period from the 1950s, you know, growing up in the (19)50s, even before meeting the Panthers and going out to the California norm. And then of course, being in California, and then your life since- I have tried to break it down. When you think, when you look at the periods of boomers have been alive, it has been 65 years. This is the first, this past year is the first year that the boomers actually reached-
21:08
BCE: Yeah.
21:09
SM: -65. And so, I break it down. What, what was it like I have four periods, or five periods. What was it like being an African American female, between the end of World War II in 1960, when John Kennedy came in, and then that whole period from 1961, to 1970. And then you got into the (19)70s, from (19)71, to (19)80. And then you had the period from Ronald Reagan from (19)81 to (19)90, the Reagan Bush era, and you had the Clinton era. And then you have the Bush Obama era, just from your own perspective, and maybe from not so much as-as a Black Panther, but as an African American female, and even who Kathleen in there, you can clear from a female's perspective from an African American female perspective, how do you define those periods for African American women, in your view?
22:05
BCE: I can only define it for myself.
22:07
SM: That will be fine. That is–
22:08
BCE: Okay. Because I never all, or most.
22:12
SM: I cannot, you cannot generalize. Yeah.
22:16
BCE: I remember the (19)50s because of the Korean War. My uncle was a sailor and a cook on the ship. And he used to come home with souvenirs from different countries. But I remember he used he brought us these dolls, little dolls one inside of the other day. And he was talking about Korea. I did not know anything about Korea. And he told me the military since Truman had integrated the military, you had more Blacks everywhere. He said, but I can honestly tell you that it is very difficult for them. And he talked about- I think it was Germany at the time, because he traveled all over- and he was saying how they would run up and ask you can I see your tail. Now.
23:23
SM: This is 1950?
23:25
BCE: Yeah, he was telling stories, because he has been in the service. So, I am very young. I do not understand it all. But we were protected as young girls. See the community I grew up in, everybody protected children. And I was acutely aware of that, okay. Now think, because I live here (19)63. But the one thing that- I am a daddy's girl, as I told you before- my father talked to us. He took us to see movies and would explain what we were looking at. And I remember several films, that till this day I watch him. One is "Nothing but a Man." And that was the experience of a Black man, wanting to marry the preacher's daughter, the school teacher, and people were not going for that. And integrating the Pullman- yes, see that, he then he explained all that. [inaudible] that cowboy movie and everybody loves and Alibaba with John Derek. But the song was sung by Nat King Cole. And my father said to me, "Do you believe a man can be that beautiful?" [laughter] So, but he did not like any Tarzan movies? He said, "That is not realistic." And James Bond he never liked, he never liked. And I did not I do not like until this day. But that Superman concept, you see? White Superman? No, no, no, no. So, for me growing up, everything was a history lesson. Every experience is valued because we were protected. On the weekends, he would work the bars and he would sit us at the end of the bar with a hamburger and a soda. And tell us, “Never drink when you are out by yourself. If you want something to drink buy it and put your money under the glass, you are not for sale for a drink. You see that woman over there? Do not be like that." So, I grew up with a very strong sense of self, and image. Image. He took us to the gas clubs but I was so young, I missed that. I could not grasp that, you see. Whereas my mother was you know, she worked the factories home buddy. Nice. She taught my sister how to bake- I still do not know how to bake- see I was a daddy's girl and my sister was my mother's daughter. But and then in the (19)60s. As I said my first husband, he made me stand up even straighter. Because he always used to say "If something happens to me, what you going to do." And that was always a thought. But I also had my father's ability to integrate myself into people's lives, make you feel like you knew me forever. Even though my eyes would glaze over, I would still be interested in your conversation. So, I would never, you know you just become that person. And now the (19)70s I returned back to America because I lived abroad about three years. Coming back to America in latter part of (19)73 I found a whole new world, I mean, the turn brothers sister did not mean anything anymore. It was the beginning of the drugs and you know other things. But because of my background I never got into that, stayed away from it. It was not appealing. I did waitress work for two years in the heart of what I would call the drug territory.
28:21
SM: That is in the Bay Area?
28:22
BCE: No right-right here. And but my thing was Hi, hi. Hi. Hi. Because I was not interested in that, and for me, the revolution was still going to come and during that period too I had, my husband was an exile several of my friends were killed or jailed and so I was a woman with a child. I had to make a living. I had to make some decisions. And having a bubby helped. Merriam Sadler, was wow, when she passed that that was hard but no, is a bubby a mommy or daddy? I just know bubby [inaudible]. But so, I made-she sold me a house for $1 at that 20th in Colombia. And I rented the first two floors out for income. Then in 1975 I got a job with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as a social worker, and I stayed there 25 years, 26 years. But I liked the job because the job actually paid me to do what I love.
30:14
SM: Helping people.
30:14
BCE: Helping people. So, and through those years, the organizations that I have affiliated with have always been something that evolved around people, and also the Panthers 10 Point platform appropriately. So, for me growing, it was good, because I held on to my past to go into my future. And I recognize that if you are wishy washy, or you change your name midstream, or you become involved with [audio cuts off]
31:04
SM: My next question is in your own words, define Black Power, let me, define the difference and then define the difference between a revolutionary and an activist. So, in your own, define Black Power, and secondly, the difference between a revolutionary and an activist–
31:29
BCE: My own words, define Black Power?
31:37
SM: Mhm.
31:37
BCE: [whistles] I guess we would have to look at the definition of power first. And what does it say? Influence, sometimes by force. So, but Black Power is the (19)60s slogan. Everything meant self-pride, okay, a source of growth. And a change in Gower Black Power, okay. For change. But Black Power, like I said, influence by force or by persuasion. Still working on that. Okay, still working on that. And it is not something that is for me, a local national, it is a world concept. For me, it is a world concept. It does not just belong to those who lived in the (19)60s. It is a world concept. And it has so many aspects, I could not begin to give you details on that. But the difference between a revolutionary and an activist I think it is a mental state. Because I would not you know, I would not call myself a revolutionary in the sense of now, but I would call myself an activist for change. Because the word revolution can be applied to lipstick nowadays if I am not mistaken. [laughs] So revolutionary, this, that and the other. So, revolution is a term I would not use lightly, because now they do not even take revolution. They say things like the Arab Spring, the Arab Spring.
34:07
SM: I think a lot of people that have a problem with the term revolutionary- because I went to a conference just last year at Kent State. Several of the white activists still consider themselves revolutionary. And when you read some of the literature, some people make fun of that term because they are talking on what are you Che Guevara and Fidel Castro? I mean, what are you trying to prove here? Or some leader? [inaudible] on Africa, but are we talking about? I mean, what are you talking about? So how you how the term is used, and what is the feeling I guess?
34:52
BCE: Well, it is also like I said, a mental state of mind because among my intimates I might say, "I have revolutionary thoughts." But I know activism is constant. It is a constant for me.
35:14
SM: It says, my next little thing here is describing any issues, you or your Black Panther, female peers had with the conflicts between Black Power and the so-called civil rights movement or the women's movement. Could you be both? I remember I bring this up because Johnnetta Cole is, she wrote a book called Sister President and in there, I mean, she was so involved in the issues that you were involved in. But then she also got involved in the women's movement. And then there was pressure within the the-the Black Power movement or whatever to what-what are you doing over there? I mean, you got to concentrate on this. Play Dr. King going north. No, you got to stay south, Dr. King, you cannot talk about Vietnam, you are, you are you should be talking about African American issues in the United States. It is like, so- Did you sense that? Did you and your peers, those women, those powerful, self-confident women, that your peers in Oakland, with Kathleen, you and others, Lane Brown, did you feel that there was a tension? Because if you not only cared about Black Power, but you also cared about Women Power, was there a tension here?
36:29
BCE: You have touched upon two issues, all right? Within the organization, women–
36:43
SM: I just have to check one thing, it is not always–
36:46
BCE: That is alright.
36:47
SM: Yeah, especially this one right here okay we are fine.
36:50
BCE: But within an organization, there came a period where women were demanding more, not responsibilities. Well, responsibilities, respect. leadership roles. And for the most part, some of them of chapters and branches across country that was given, that was given because you had women in Boston-I think in Chicago, too, but-but what I am saying is that women were used, instead of just cooking, or selling papers, our intellect was called upon. Okay, now, the bigger feminist movement that came what was it, the early (19)70s, no?
37:49
SM: Late (19)60s, early (19)70s.
37:50
BCE: Yeah, okay. That was a European type movement, if you think about it, Gloria Steinem take off your bra, I want to come out the house. So those issues, were not really something that many African American women focused on. And, and several have testified to that. But there had to be alliances between some women between some thoughts, because we were all after the same bigger picture. So, I myself, and quite a few of my associates, for lack of a better term, at this time, we were open to almost anything. But, of course, as you said, the Party came first.
38:56
SM: This, this is really important, because I asked this to Emory too. And I know over a year ago asked it to Ross and I have asked a lot of people. A lot- it did not matter what color you were and the background you were the mere fact that in the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement, one of the reasons why the women's movement evolved was because that women were placed in second class positions. And, and we know now that there were many women in the civil rights movement, who were down on the South that went on Freedom Summer, getting Casey Hadden and the list goes on and on. So that is not the case, and then we all know Dorothy Height, was the only really female that was on the platform in 1963. It was all men, Mahalia Jackson saying and-and certainly Mary Travers was there with Peter, Paul and Mary–
39:44
BCE: Yeah-yeah-yeah.
39:44
SM: -but the women outside of Dorothy Height, they were not seen at that, at that march. And I think that was very sensitive to Dr. King and most of the civil rights leaders, and certainly the antiwar and the question is like, what I am getting at is within the Black Panther Party, within the-the Black Power movement, were you treated with respect were you given, were you were you not only looked upon the- for your intellect as well, you know that is what I am getting at because a lot of the people went into the women's only because they were treated as second class citizens. How did the Black Panther male–
40:19
BCE: Wait-wait-wait, [inaudible] you are going- they went into the women's movement because they were treated as–
40:26
SM & BCE: Second class citizens.
40:27
SM: In the antiwar and civil rights movement.
40:32
BCE: Well-well let us look at this. As I told you before, when I was in San Francisco State, I shifted to the Black Panther Party because it was more exciting, more driven for me. But the type of individual that I am, that Kathleen is, Elaine Brown, Ericka Huggins, Audrey out of Boston, I cannot think of Audrey's last name. Sasha Core, I think even Fanny [inaudible] at some point. The women were not only in the party, getting beaten and thrown in jail as much as any man. Our numbers was, our numbers were great. Many women, there were a lot of women in the party. Sometimes it was four women to one men-to one man. So, decisions were based on who can do the job. Now, there was some chauvinism. I am not going to deny that, but because I was able to function quite well, and my husband kept me in Philadelphia, the next thing I knew, they was saying, "When you come back with, you better come out of there, we need you around here." Because I worked very well, raising money, influence. But it was also due to the Black Panther party that was here in Philadelphia, they were open to suggestions. They were open to dialogue about, "Let us gather, what should we do."
42:27
SM: And were not threatened by new ideas?
42:29
BCE: No, no. And, well, "Barbara, you are good with all in the peace groups, you to go downtown, you deal with that. You go over there and deal with that." So, the best thing he ever did for me was send me here, because I was like [breathes deeply], so overseas, wherever I went after that, I knew what I had to do. And I would always drag women with me. "Come on, I need to come on." Now, but working very good with men. So, the women who joined if they the weathermen, you know, and the Peace and Freedom Party, okay? Because I remember them. And they were hell raisers. They were great. They were like freedom! Burn the [crosstalk] Oh, so they were like, "Let us do this." And that the civil rights movement, look, it from a church, okay. It started church people. They met- and they were older, and even the student movement of the so many young, Black people and white people that went.
43:56
SM: Yeah.
43:57
BCE: Yeah. They started out voter registration, okay, fine. But you see that? What does Stokely say at some point? Is, "You come in here with a gun, I am going to get a gun." So, you think that elevation and growth of, "No, Daddy, I am not, I am not turning the other cheek. No mom ah-ah, it is not going to happen." So, in my mind, it is like you grow and you develop. So, within the movement, people come in. And I think too the reading material that we have all given the heroes that we worship, foreign and domestic. Yet, things change.
44:50
SM: I think it is interesting. You raise a very good point here because you talk about the church, when Dr. King replaced the minister in his very First Church that Dr. King- that minister was kind of let go because he was a rabble rouser on pardon me, I forget his name I cannot believe. Like, I am really upset that I am going to, but then Dr. King-King came in and gave his first sermon and you remember seeing the movie about that? Yeah.
45:18
BCE: I thought we just going to run [laughs]
45:20
SM: And Dr. King never planned to be what that Dr. King became, he wanted to be a minister. And so.
45:26
BCE: But you cannot help–
45:27
SM: But he went the next phase and then then you have Stokely and HRM Brown coming into the next phase challenging the John Lewis's and the Bob Moses' is in terms of the [inaudible] setting that is going. So, you are seeing that more commonly, would you, could you describe Oakland in 1966? Because that was when the Black Panther Party was founded. What were the reasons behind the formation of the Black Panther Party and what were the living conditions in the Oakland Bay Area or in California where African Americans felt that the civil rights movement, that nonviolent direct-action approach was not working?
46:03
BCE: Well–
46:04
SM: I thought that was a big challenge to Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer. Right, [inaudible]. Is that different?
46:10
BCE: Well, I think, a police state, for lack of a better word, and [inaudible]
46:21
SM: Knew it.
46:21
BCE: And I do not think it was up to the West Coast. Because Reza was here in Philadelphia, so we were talking basically a police state and sort of like the Hispanic people. I am not sure, is the correct word Hispanic or Latino now, find themselves in Arkansas. You are harassed simply because you are of color. And young boys are, are more flammable than, say, a middle-aged black man. And, and this is not unique to California. So, you know, oh, he was carrying a gun. That was why I shot him 100 times. So, Bobby and Huey, as they state in many articles and books, said "What can we do to stop the police from doing all these horrible things in the community?" And so here we are, what, 50 something years later? No, 40 years later, right? Almost 40 something years later, and we find ourselves still burdened with police states, the blue line, the code [inaudible]. Then at that time, the other thing that might add to that is that many police departments were not really integrated. No Asian, Latinos or Blacks. So, you know, that whole period of time was ugly. And even though the Civil Rights segregation marches, the pickets and so forth, had come to California, that was the basis of the Black Panther Party.
48:33
SM: Interesting in your thoughts over the years, I know this happened at the [inaudible] house campus, because the students just did not like the cops. And they were white cops that were coming, they were 50 and had a beer gut. And there was, they wanted to create a younger police force and actually one that did not symbolize Bull Connor in the south, which is what happened the (19)70s. But the question is a lot of African American, Latino and Asian American men and women have been hired in the police force, but there still seems to be-I am just me- there still seems to be that divide. You still see the divide even though the police have been integrated? It is almost as if those of those cops are cop outs or something.
49:18
BCE: Well, I have very few police friends, okay. I have very few friends that are ex policeman or whatever. But they only reflect a larger society and in these troubling economic times, it is not even a question. It is a fact.
49:46
SM: Yeah. Who were- I am going to come, I have a question here on names and I got to find my list here but-but who were the original- I am going to read off questions that will come back and one of them these are the questions I want to ask, who were the original Black Panthers? How many more there? What was their background? Where do they come from? Wherever they headquartered, and how did they recruit? I think you have already talked about that. What were the 10 basic points and how many men and women were in the original group. And we-we already did the, were women treated as equals and have the Panther Party spread nationwide, and why were they labeled as threats to America? And what were the main causes? And what did they do for the community? And how were they named in the logo and bringing some also, some questions about that meeting that that your husband had with Leonard Bernstein and the dislike for Tom Wolston in his book, but, and I got the names of I have the names of the people that I want to ask about some of the originals, but yeah, who were the original Black Panther and–
50:55
BCE: Did you answer me, that question? [laughs]
50:57
SM: Yeah, I did, really was not getting it in this and I am going to go right to this point. Because for young people-
51:05
BCE: Yeah.
51:05
SM: I am a history nut, and these people need to be remembered 100 and 200 and 300 years from now–
51:10
BCE: Go ahead.
51:11
SM: For young people who are not aware of the key leaders and personalities and people linked to the Black Panther Party or Black Power movement–
51:20
BCE: Go ahead.
51:20
SM: In a few words, who are these people and why is it important to know something about them? And these are the people that [inaudible] one at a time but Huey Newton, Bobby Seale,
51:32
BCE: Mhm [agreement]
51:33
SM: Bobby Hutton.
51:34
BCE: Mhm [agreement]
51:35
SM: Eldridge Cleaver.
51:37
BCE: Mhm [disagreement] [inaudible] original–
51:38
SM: Ok, um Fred Hampton. I am just throwing the names of Eldridge Cleaver, Katelyn Cleaver, Dave Hilliard, Elaine Brown. Donald Cox, Stokely Carmichael. H Rap Brown. And those are the individuals just a little bit something about them. Oh, those are the originals right there?
51:58
BCE: These are the original.
51:59
SM: I am going to take a picture of this. Because I know we all know Bobby, and we all know who Huey. We know Bob- We know, Bobby Hut- we know about the murder.
52:06
BCE: Big man.
52:07
SM: We do not know about him.
52:08
BCE: Big Man.
52:09
SM: We need to know more about him. We need to know more about him.
52:12
BCE: The Forte brother.
52:13
SM: Yeah. See, the history books have these three. These three.
52:17
BCE: Yeah.
52:18
SM: They do not have these three. So, I would like you to maybe say a little bit something for the book about those six.
52:25
BCE: Oh.
52:28
SM: So why do not we go one at a time. Who was Huey Newton?
52:32
BCE: Okay. Huey Newton was a student at Merritt College at the time, right. And Bobby was also, that was where they met. Okay. Little Bobby Hutton. I am not certain how he got involved with Huey and Bobby. Um, the Forte brothers, Reggie and Sherman. Were and I think and sort of bad boys on the corner. But and Big Man.
53:14
SM: What is his full name?
53:16
BCE: Albert Howard.
53:18
SM: Okay.
53:19
BCE: Albert Howard. Big Man. I do not remember how Bobby said he met him; you know what−
53:28
SM: Are any outside of Bobby. Are they oh, any other?
53:34
BCE: Bobby and Big Man are still here.
53:36
SM: The rest are gone?
53:37
BCE: Yeah. Gone-gone-gone.
53:39
SM: What happened to Forte Brothers?
53:41
BCE: No, wait-wait-wait. Reggie, uh kidney stuff.
53:48
SM: Okay.
53:50
BCE: Sherman Forte. I did not see him when I was out there. I am not really sure where Sherman−
53:59
SM: Let me turn this off until you are back. Because we are just basically describing who they were and why they are important. Huey Newton.
54:11
BCE: Huey was a nice young man, intelligent, very, very smart, a good reader, you know, articulate who also had a concern for Black people. I think that had a lot to do with his background, his parents are from Louisiana, if I remember correctly. Yeah, I think so. But when you look at any of the films and early writings, you could see the concern for Black people in general so and the same for Bobby Segal. The very same for Bobby Segal. And together I think they, there was a killing, a young boy. And the first newspaper was a mimeograph. But if you go on the website all of it is listed and I think that was the first thing that struck them as so wrong, unjust. I just encourage people to look at some of the films because you are asking me about personalities and certain things that I really did not have time to deal with.
55:42
SM: You think it was? I do not want this to be a setup question. But the way he died, he was, he was shot being accused of drug trafficking. Well, what how did, how did the guy with a PhD−
55:53
BCE: Well, that is true. I mean, you know, that was, that was how he died. But I do not- Eldridge. He died. Eldridge died from what was it, a massive heart attack, stroke whatever. How did he go from being the hero to the bum that we did not want to deal with? There is an expression of the good die young. Because you still got a chance to fuck it up. [laughter] And like I said, the- we was a microcosm of society−
56:39
SM: That is a great quote.
56:41
BCE: Aren't we just, you know? I mean, it is business with the Penn State man. 50 years of coaching, and all you going to be, you are not, you are going to be remembered for that. But you are going to be remembered in connection with the [inaudible].
56:59
SM: They always tell young people too that you do, you could do 100 great things in your life, but they only remember the bad ones.
57:05
BCE: Okay. So, and then I also, my husband had written.
57:16
SM: Yeah, yeah, and who was Donald Cox.
57:18
BCE: Oh, here we go. Cut it off.
57:23
SM: Your husband, who was Donald Cox? And why was he important to the Black Panthers? What was his again, overall, his role, his work? And then of course, I know something happened in Baltimore, and he had to go to Europe. And he lived there the rest of his life. So, who is Donald Cox?
57:40
BCE: Okay, Donald Cox was Field Marshall of the Black Panther Party. He was also a person who had lived in the Bay Area for about, I would say about 15 years or so. Very quiet. Gentlemen belong to NAACP, loved photography. He worked running a printing press in San Francisco. Little shop there. And his cousin Fred Dolan mentioned to him about these gentlemen over in Oakland were talking about carrying guns. And he said, "Really?" [laughter] And he said, "I would like to meet these guys." Well, the one thing that he did when he did meet them, he realized that he knew more about guns because he grew up in Missouri than they did. And he instructed them in the use, the care the buying the selling, how to so they made him a Field Marshal. Which meant you ran all over the country your first task was to make sure that the office was set up in a proper way, certain rules and guidelines were followed and etc., not all people were privileged to his private instructions. Okay, he literally just surface stuff and he was responsible for security because Stealth Lee, Rapper, it is an endless list of names that came through our house. If you came through San Francisco or Oakland, he was responsible for your safety. Now-
1:00:10
SM: Was he in charge of like when Kathleen went off to [inaudible] State, the people that were on the stage was−
1:00:16
BCE: No.
1:00:16
SM: That was all the locals and that was the panthers.
1:00:18
BCE: Yeah, because he was still overseas. He left- was the 1970s, he left?
1:00:25
SM: But when he was doing this role and say, Eldridge or Bobby and Huey and Stokely and H. Rapper going around and Kathleen, were going around speaking, was he, did he go as an advance person to make sure that there was safety or-?
1:00:39
BCE: Not always but you know, what is really funny? Excuse me. Not always, but you can see that−
1:00:54
SM: That is Stokely.
1:00:55
BCE: Yeah. And Angela.
1:00:58
SM: That is, that is a young Angela.
1:00:59
BCE: Yeah. Before she went to jail. And that is me.
1:01:03
SM: Oh, what a great shot.
1:01:06
BCE: And it is me. So, we−
1:01:09
SM: Got a great shot.
1:01:10
BCE: Yeah, and see, this is a poncho. And in the poncho, I had a [inaudible] ranger, okay. This gentleman behind here, always carried a gun. People were carrying guns. You could carry guns back then.
1:01:26
SM: Yeah.
1:01:27
BCE: I mean, I was on−
1:01:28
SM: Yeah, that was to protect you. That was the whole concept of the Black Panther was, "We are not going to shoot you, we are just going to protect ourselves." That was his method.
1:01:37
BCE: Well−
1:01:37
SM: Yeah.
1:01:38
BCE: Whatever. But the other thing, young, romantic. We did not know it all. We did not know how dangerous the beast could be. [laughs] But, and Don, he really loved the- he loved the party. He loved the party. He had disagreements with the leadership because he could not, he was not a chauvinist. I think that was the thing they really got him in a little bit of trouble on and off.
1:02:10
SM: Who were the chauvinists? Or you do not want to mention that?
1:02:13
BCE: History will tell.
1:02:17
SM: Okay.
1:02:19
BCE: I do not think Bobby was a chauvinist, because he had a decent side to himself. But he was swaying too often. Some people get swayed.
1:02:36
SM: And the other ones are in that group there. They were the main force, those six.
1:02:42
BCE: These guys were not.
1:02:44
SM: They were not chauvinists?
1:02:47
BCE: Big Man, no. He was too young. He was funny. One night he kicked the door in looking for some guns that Eldridge had left at the house. And it was really funny because what I think that was the night Don- Don was there.
1:03:17
SM: What a great shirt that is, oh wow.
1:03:21
BCE: And June Hager, David’s brother.
1:03:25
SM: Oh, yeah, and that is Don, right?
1:03:26
BCE: That is Don.
1:03:27
SM: And who is that guy?
1:03:28
BCE: Big Man.
1:03:28
SM: That is big man. Okay, and this is who?
1:03:31
BCE: June Haggins.
1:03:34
SM: When was that picture taken? 19-
1:03:36
BCE: (19)69, I think?
1:03:42
SM: Now, the one thing I wanted to ask here is that meeting that he had with Leonard Bernstein, I met the man, you go into the web, and that is all they talk about.
1:03:50
BCE: I know.
1:03:52
SM: Now, he was there raising funds for the 21 in New York.
1:03:55
BCE: Yes.
1:03:56
SM: And, and then you guys ended up really disliking Tom Wolf, because he wrote that book.
1:04:02
BCE: Well, I do not think everybody dislikes Tom Wolfe, but back to the girls−
1:04:09
SM: That was the first days- I will wait. We ended up getting to meet Leonard Bernstein. And I guess it was at the−
1:04:21
BCE: I do not remember.
1:04:21
SM: −same building that John Lennon lived in the−
1:04:24
BCE: Oh, the butcher’s name building. Yeah.
1:04:26
SM: Yeah.
1:04:27
BCE: Well, I do not remember the details. But here is the thing. When the New York 21 got busted, somebody had to come back to New York because the whole leadership was and the rank-and-file members. So−
1:04:47
SM: What year was this?
1:04:49
BCE: New York 21? Had to be (19)69. I can double check, but it had to be (19)69- a lot happened in (19)69. He came back, right? And so, this huge uproar about all these Panthers being in jail.
1:05:17
SM: And those 21 Panthers were the leadership of the New York chapter?
1:05:20
BCE: Yes. And some, yes, rank and file person, young people. I think they just came to the house and took everybody. But here is the other part of it. So, Don comes back, they sent him back with one or two other persons to sort of like, find out what is happening, what can we do blah-blah-blah-blah. Well, the newspapers are running around like crazy. There is a lawyer, lawyer by the name of Arthur Turco. I do not know where Turco is now. But it is Arthur Turco and he, the Nation of Islam, quite a few other Afrocentric groups, and they are all running to the office to show support. You got newspaper people running their- Arthur Turco is representing some of these people, and he is offering his services. So, you just have a multitude of people. Now, I would have to go get Khan's book. To give you some more details on that. Can I get it really quick?
1:06:39
SM: Yep. What did Don do in Europe from the time he went over there to the time he passed? We are talking 30 years-
1:06:47
BCE: Yeah, you are talking 30 years. Well, he was in Algiers, the first six or seven years, but when Eldridge and Kathleen, when we had the international section, so he was over there. And then when that fell apart-you always make friends remember too you always make friends−
1:07:12
SM: Yeah.
1:07:13
BCE: And French person or two said, "Come out of Algiers. Come to France, get over here. If you get here, we can help you." And so, he got there. And he did photography, high fashion photography, because he was a good photographer. He did photography. He married a French woman who had money. [laughs] And when he called me, he said, "I am leaving!" I said Don, "Please do not leave, please stay with this woman. “Friends-wise I like her a lot, but she is a piece of work. But so, they were married about-? Well, I do not know if you remember this, but the French government started clamping down on immigrants. And they started with, must have been in the early (19)80s. They started with Africans with no working papers. So that was a problem because even though you were not an African, you were not a Frenchman, so to speak. So, because he did a lot of rehabilitation of housing, too. So, he decided to leave Paris and go to [inaudible], which is in southern France, the base of the Pyrenees Mountains area. And he bought a little farmhouse there. He fixed that up, started growing, really grew his own food, his own marijuana. And he got into aromatherapy. He was so good at aromatherapy, it was unbelievable. And the house was huge, beautiful place we were trying to sell it now. And he would have, people come from Paris. And like I said, he was not a chauvinist, and at one point he had all these Muslim women come down there to talk about fighting back. Fighting, "How did we get from behind the veil?"
1:09:52
SM: So, what is happening today?
1:09:53
BCE: Heck, some of them may be still there. But the aroma therapy became, that was why when you were talking about books.
1:10:04
SM: Yeah.
1:10:05
BCE: He has got a wall of aromatherapy stuff. And he got noticed in one of these aromatherapy magazines.
1:10:15
SM: Right.
1:10:15
BCE: And he hung with that for years, he would sell. He would take some plants and stuff and squeeze the juice out and sell it to different people to create odors. So, he made a living with that, it was not a lot. But one thing that really blew my mind with him was astronomy. He has got a what is it called, telescope. When I went to move it, ah shit! [laughs] I had to go clean up the house. But if he was sitting here now, and we could look out to the stars−
1:10:58
SM: He knew it.
1:10:59
BCE: He knew it.
1:11:00
SM: So, it was just a hobby, it was an interest, like his photography. But that was professional though.
1:11:04
BCE: Yeah. But the, so you had aromatherapy, astronomy cause the magazines came to the house. And then you had, oh, the French and African slave trade. I got to find someone to speak [inaudible] all those history books that he collected].
1:11:23
SM: And those six years or six years in Africa, he-he led the main headquarters for the Black Panther Party in Africa, or?
1:11:32
BCE: Well, it was Eldridge, Don, Pete O'Neill.
1:11:37
SM: Stokely went over there too, did not he in the end?
1:11:39
BCE: No-no-no.
1:11:41
SM: Okay.
1:11:41
BCE: That is something else. He went to Africa, but he is not come there. [laughs] I am trying to find the spot−
1:11:50
SM: Again, when you talk about the−
1:11:52
BCE: Oh, he has radical [inaudible].
1:11:54
SM: Okay.
1:11:55
BCE: I am just looking.
1:11:56
SM: As like, as you are looking here. So, when you were talking about the originals, there were, these were the six originals then, the six originals we talked about.
1:12:04
BCE: Mhm.
1:12:05
SM: And where did they all come from? Did- where did Huey come from? New Orleans originally, he says−
1:12:13
BCE: Louisiana.
1:12:13
SM: Louisiana?
1:12:14
BCE: I am not sure.
1:12:16
SM: Where did Bobby come from originally? Does he grow up in Oakland?
1:12:21
BCE: His family has a southern history.
1:12:26
SM: How about the brothers?
1:12:27
BCE: I do not know the Forte brothers' history.
1:12:31
SM: And then Bobby Hutton, same there? And Big Man? They were all living in Oakland, though at the time.
1:12:36
BCE: Yeah.
1:12:37
SM: Nobody was in San Francisco. They were all Oakland and they all kind of met.
1:12:40
BCE: Except for Emory.
1:12:42
SM: Right.
1:12:42
BCE: Emory is not on there.
1:12:44
SM: Right.
1:12:45
BCE: But he was next in that circle.
1:12:47
SM: Right. And there were no women then in the original. But who were the original first women?
1:12:57
BCE: Matilaba, or Tarika [Joan Tarika Lewis], her name is Tarika now.
1:13:03
SM: How many original women were there?
1:13:06
BCE: I- Huey had a girlfriend named Laverne, Bobby was with Adi. I could not call any names beyond that.
1:13:20
SM: So, they really the beginning was the girlfriend's then?
1:13:23
BCE: Girlfriend or wife.
1:13:24
SM: And that was how Kathleen- because she got to know Eldridge?
1:13:28
BCE: Eldridge had Stokely on one of his trips back East. And he was impressed. And then Katherine and Stokely and some of the NIC brothers came out to−
1:13:40
SM: And how do they spread nationwide? Well, how did the word- I know the Black Panther Paper in Oakland? But how did New York and Chicago and Atlanta and Philadelphia, how did they find out about the Black Panthers originally, how did it just spread?
1:13:56
BCE: Well, here is the thing, the newspapers and the TVs helped, but also people would tell their relatives in different cities. So, if you were interested in it, you had to come to Oakland to ask to form a branch or a chapter. And that was what they did. They came, they came.
1:14:21
SM: And why were they labeled as a threat to America, in your opinion? It is well documented, the police liked to call them thugs. And so, they would use a denigrating term to show their insignificance, but in reality, they were watching them all the time, and why were they labeled as a threat to America?
1:14:44
BCE: Well, why did we call people terrorists nowadays? And what does that really mean? Now we have homegrown terrorists, but I think labeling is part of the first step of disposing of any obstacles, you are you are labeled, then you are set up. You are infiltrated. Like I said, we were young and romantic, we did not realize the nature of the beast. But now, thanks to the internet, everybody knows everything. And, but it still disturbs me. When I see homegrown terrorists, 14, 15, 16 years old in Florida, planning to blow- get out of here. You infiltrate these little young boys or girls and buy some chemicals. And then you got a case against them. Come on.
1:15:59
SM: We all know that he talked about the threat of the police and so forth within the community. But what if someone were to come here today and, what do you think the main sort of misinterpretation of the Black Panthers are? What would you say? There is an interpretation for many that they are no different than the weatherman. They were they were cre- the weatherman may have stood up, but they also believe in blowing up buildings, so they want to kill people. They want to blow up buildings. Black Panthers did not want to blow up buildings. But there is this perception when you talk about radicalism and lack of law and order that Natalie Lee talked about the weathermen that talked about the Black Panthers, why is that?
1:16:47
BCE: Why not?
1:16:47
SM: What is the misinterpretation?
1:16:49
BCE: Well.
1:16:49
SM: What would you like to say to that? What image that is created about the Black Panthers are you most upset about?
1:16:59
BCE: That we dislike white people. That we were racist. And that we were violent. No, no more than anyone else. No, no. And we were a group of young, maybe idealistic, maybe romantic, young people who wanted to see a change. Now, I really did not answer that. Yes, I did, yes, I did. Because
1:17:50
SM: And how were the Black Panthers named? Why were they called the Black Panthers?
1:17:55
BCE: Oh, well, we took that I think they took that from the [inaudible] organization. They had the Black Panther, when they were voter registration. They were using the Black Panther of Lowndes County, somewhere down there. But we were the Black Panther Party for self-defense. And it is very important, for self-defense.
1:18:30
SM: And the Black Panther Party stood for much more than that. What were some of the projects they were involved in? I know, I know, the list goes on. We know about the food program but- Yeah, yeah. Just in a short synopsis. What were the programs that the Black Panthers were involved in that not only were well known locally, but became part of the national scene in all other cities?
1:18:54
BCE: Let us say well, the breakfast program led to feeding kids in America, in schools. The medical clinics, we focused on sickle cell at that time, because that was something that had not been-we had a lot of people with sickle cell anemia. Prison-prison, taking families to the prisons, you know, we saw that as something that needs to be done. And the food and clothing giveaways is of course, were a great success and also the-the image but I like the idea of internationalism that we put out there.
1:19:46
SM: You are known all over the world.
1:19:48
BCE: Yes.
1:19:52
SM: So-so you when you talk about that is why that term revolution when you talk about what was happening in America, revolution, there was a link to revolutions in other parts of the world too, revolutions in Africa. Whether it be Cuba−
1:20:11
SM & BCE: South America.
1:20:13
SM: There was a link there. It was kind of−
1:20:16
BCE: It was, and you well, you know, North Korea, Mao Zedong even Russia, before World War II. But was that in relationship to the word revolutionary versus activism? A state of mind? Because we were not fighting like, in Ireland, the IRA, correct?
1:20:53
SM: [inaudible]
1:20:53
BCE: Yeah, I mean, these people actually sniping, killing bombing. I mean, ongoing, historical situations. But yeah, we were we were revolutionaries. Definitely in our mental states, but not so much in the physical situation. And never got a chance. [laughs]
1:21:22
SM: You know, it is interesting, you know, Harry Edwards. So, who was- Harry, we brought to our campus, and he wrote a book that we were required to read in grad school, to which I think it is one of the greatest books ever written? It is called "Black Students." And it was a brilliant book about activism and it is really defining revolutionary, militant, activist, and anomic activist.
1:21:47
BCE: Anomic activist?
1:21:48
SM: An anomic activist is a person for hire who does not give a darn about anything except, "You just give me the money and I will do anything you ask." And that was the ones that he said people fear the most about. Anomic activist is not the Black Panthers. I mean, I think they were referring kind of to the weatherman there.
1:22:08
BCE: But no-no-no, I do not think the weatherman would "Give me the money and I will do anything."
1:22:12
SM: No-no, that is true. I think what we are referring to here, is he just put that down as a [inaudible] because he felt that a lot of the leaders of the movement were older. And [inaudible] on college campuses, the militants were the-the older ones, who were the role models for the younger activists and so forth. And then revolution [inaudible] another thing. If you have anything more to say on that meeting with Tom- could not find it? Did you find that though, the way America was treating that incident with that situation when he goes to visit Leonard Bernstein these chic Hollywood types? What do they have to do with the Black Panthers? I mean, they were trying to raise money. I know a lot of people make fun of it.
1:23:02
BCE: Well, but-but also that particular meeting was interesting because the things that came out of it. Okay. That was one thing, but then across the country I like the word European, but I got to say white, because it seems to save time. [laughs] A lot of well to do white people came out of the woodworks across the country. It was not just New York. I mean, here in Philadelphia, I was talking about Dill Miller, little Jewish Quaker man, right. And that was how I got this house. [laughs] Well, not from him, but his organization. And because I was living somewhere and I just keep, I came to a meeting to get away from somebody. And he was there talking about building houses around here. [inaudible] Barbara. So, I put my name down. I did not think no more about it, two days later, they going to be, "You want to house, duplex? You want a house?" I said, "Okay." Because I could not beat the price. And Joe knew me from the old days, because when Huey got out of jail, that was where he went was to Joe Millis house. Down on Spruce Street, you cannot even walk through there without money falling from the trees. See, that Bernstein affair. Chicago. I cannot even in my travels every place I go, it is interesting to me, people want to talk to you. Because "I met your husband" which he was a great, great person, but well, you know what so and so did and so and so did and so and so did"- and I be like, I do not want to hear it no more. Because some of is good, and some of it is bad. But there is one thing that I will never shy away from. And that is your pain. If you have pain from those things, I will not shy away from your story. I mean, grown men had just cried [inaudible]. But I know everybody did not come out of that hole, and it was not just about going to jail. It was a mental anguish. Okay. And you have to take time to listen to brothers and sisters. I mean, I was in Washington, DC so Sherry got really freaked out. I am in Washington, DC, right? It is about, how long ago was that? It has been about eight years now. I cannot quite remember what the reason was that I went down there. And it is this white woman. And I know she is a nurse, okay, because I am staying at her house. And we were at this march and all these Black people around and I got her by the arm because I am staying at your house, and I knew you good people, but I do not know who you are. I get tired, I said, "Oh, I want some seafood. Let us let us go back to your house." So, the young lady from New York, myself, and this woman, we stop, get seafood, we go back to her house. And we were sitting at the table. And she goes, I said, "What is the matter?" "Well, you are the first woman I have had a chance to talk to, I got to talk to you." And she starts talking about how she met her husband in jail. And they have been married over 10, 15 years [inaudible]. And then she starts bringing up these weather women. And I am sitting there because I recognize the names. And "You should come and meet Susie." Fuck- I do not want to see Susie! I do not want to see Jane! But I recognize them from California. And I am thinking to myself, "Okay, we help this woman immediately." But the next day, Susie calls on phone and I go, "Look, I am going back to Philly. If you get the Philly, call me." I do not have to wait for Susie to call me because Josie calls me from California! Susie said she ran into-
1:23:46
SM: Well, from him? Yeah.
1:28:07
BCE: So, the-the pain that a lot of people suffered. Whether it was at the hands of a man or woman, because this French guy, he, oh god he was like, I do not understand [inaudible], I do not know, I do not understand either. But so, I continue my role. You know, I continue my role is there some unfairness in the world? He tried to help. He tried to do something.
1:28:49
SM: You find also the pain because of the experiences of COINTELPRO and what they did to people? I really, I think American I think young people and anybody who knows about anybody who stands up in America, freedom of speech and fight for things. What really happened with COINTELPRO- we know it ended at a certain juncture because Andrew Hoover died.
1:29:10
BCE: Do we?
1:29:12
SM: It was gone into another area where he was being watched, but know Hoover was gone.
1:29:16
BCE: Yeah.
1:29:16
SM: But the question is what, within the Black Panthers community- I have already talked to every single movement, people from every movement, and it affected their lives. What was COINTELPRO? And you know, what did they do and how did they destroy lives? That was the question and how did they destroy lives?
1:29:34
BCE: Well, they put you in jail and your mother and father or your grandmother, do not have the money to get you out or they can hold you up in court for years. People sold their houses, whatever they had to help their children. And I think that is across the board. Now also some of the children died. Some are still in jail. And their families are torn to thunder.
1:30:24
SM: What were some of the tactics that they that they used against the members of the Black Panthers? And did you feel at what juncture was the first time you realized you were being watched? Not just police in the community now, I mean, really being watched. And how did it affect how you did things? How did you live day to day, fear?
1:30:44
BCE: No-no-no fear. No fear. Simply. I was in, I went to get my first passport in Philadelphia. And you go snap a little picture, then you go to the downtown. I remember this man walking up and said, "I do not know we going to let you leave the country Barbra." And he walked away. He walked away. When I was in Germany, my son was maybe 13, 14 months old. First time he had seen snow. I am playing in the snow. And they walk up and the [inaudible] walked up. And you know the sun, but then you see the shadow fall. And I looked up, and that was in the German neighborhood, so the fact that you were a German Ma'am, I did not. And he walked up, and he said, "That is a beautiful son you got there, Barbara." That was the first time I felt fear in my life. They know your name. When a friend of mine, freedom of information, shoot me a testimony when I was in Philly. Negro woman named Barbara Easley [laughs] walked with Rosemary Mealy. And it is like, you do not think about it. You are doing something righteous. And you do that. I do not think Rosa Parks felt fear. Because at some point, you are here. And it does not matter whether you kill me or whatever you do. It is there. You cannot, what are you going to do? You either going to go back to church, or you going to go forward, and get your bead bashed in. But you got to do something. [audio cuts]
1:32:57
SM: You mentioned that Free Huey was a very important happening. What was the Free Huey all about? The Free Huey movement? We know, I saw the posters. And then of course, there is that poster of him sitting in that chair that is on a−
1:33:19
BCE: Oh, it is on my refrigerator. [laughter]
1:33:22
SM: But what was the Free Huey all about? What had he done, to free him, that there was needed freedom?
1:33:29
BCE: There was the shooting, a policeman was killed off the fly. And Huey was shot. And this is in Oakland? Yes. And nobody really seems to know too much more than that, the general story. Now. Of course, we took the position that the police set out to set him up. And so, you get some lawyers and you start a case, you form alliances.
1:34:11
SM: Was this in (19068, or (19)67 or−
1:34:13
BCE: Well now they went to the Capitol of Sacramento was- with the guns. Remember that was first, that was first okay. And of course, they were being followed around. And also, I think, you know, newspapers give you a lot of play. And when that went down, all the black organizations in the area ran with us to the police station, quote unquote, "Free Huey" So the rallying call, that became a rallying call and a very successful campaign because Eldridge took it over you see. And yeah, he did not−
1:35:08
SM: And how long was Huey in jail for that?
1:35:11
BCE: Whoa. (19)70, he got out of jail, and it was either July or August of (19)70. You know, it is funny. We were in North Korea having babies, okay. And you take the radio with the antenna and do like this to hear anything. So, all we would hear was what was the military radio station?
1:35:44
SM: Unless you are-
1:35:45
BCE: You know what I am talking about.
1:35:46
SM: Yeah.
1:35:46
BCE: Radio Free America.
1:35:47
SM: Radio [inaudible] Europe or something like that.
1:35:49
BCE: [agreement] So we could hear that. And we could hear that accused cop killer Huey Newton had been [inaudible] in jail. So that must have been August of 919)70.
1:36:05
SM: So you were, let me get this straight. You were in Philadelphia before you went to Oakland. From what years to what years, you were in Philadelphia?
1:36:14
BCE: I left Philadelphia in (19)63.
1:36:18
SM: And then you went to San Francisco. And how long were you there in San Francisco Oakland area? From (19)63 to−
1:36:29
BCE: I would say (19)68 I started traveling, no, (19)69.
1:36:36
SM: (19)69.
1:36:37
BCE: I started traveling.
1:36:38
SM: Now you were in school there for a while but then you dropped out of school.
1:36:41
BCE: Yeah.
1:36:42
SM: What were you majoring in at school?
1:36:44
BCE: Elementary education, like everybody else. [laughs]
1:36:47
SM: And then in (19)69, what- where did you go from (19)69?
1:36:53
BCE: New York, Philadelphia. I was here. I left. Did I go back? I went back to Oakland about April−
1:37:06
SM: In (19)69?
1:37:07
BCE: No, (19)70. But it was really scary. Because David and his brother June, Eldridge was gone, DC had left. Kathleen was gone. Bobby was still in jail, Chicago stuff. So, the things that were being done are things that I was not used to, did not like.
1:37:56
SM: And it was during this time that I remembered, you know, David Horowitz he was with the [inaudible]. And he said the main reason why he changed from being a conservative- I mean, from a liberal to conservative was because he felt that one of his coworkers at Ramparts was murdered by the Black Panthers. I mentioned that too.
1:38:13
BCE: Was that−
1:38:13
SM: And at that juncture, he switched. He blasted the Black Panthers. He said they were a terrorist group and−
1:38:19
BCE: But Jane, the woman, the white woman−
1:38:24
SM: I think so, that worked in the office, and I know he worked with Eldridge at Ramparts.
1:38:28
BCE: Yeah, but you know, something. Where was I, recently? It was in the last few years.
1:38:50
SM: You were in (19)70. And then you went to from Oakland over to Africa?
1:38:55
BCE: Yes. Well-well see. Eldridge was gone, Kathleen was gone, Bobby was in jail. DC had left also behind this Baltimore indictment.
1:39:10
SM: Right.
1:39:13
BCE: So, I was assigned to work in Oakland. I could go back to San Francisco to our apartment and sleep then I would come back to Oakland, but because I no longer felt that I had the protection of the Field Marshal, it was a little scary. And I contacted Miriam and Bill Seidler my godmother. Back in Philly, "I am thinking about coming home, get some money together. Get some money in case I have to come." Well as it turned out. I was also pregnant. My baby was due in July, end of July, first of August, and Eldridge called and I was there. And he said, "Barbara wins your baby due?" I said, "July, August." Said, "Okay." So, he told June Higgins, "Send Barbara over here."
1:40:25
SM: And he was in Africa at the time.
1:40:27
BCE: Yeah. Because Kathleen's baby is due at the same time, send her here. I was like, "Thank you, God. Thank you."
1:40:37
SM: And well, that was where in Africa?
1:40:39
BCE: Algiers.
1:40:39
SM: Okay Algeria.
1:40:40
BCE: Okay. And so that basically got away. And when I got to Algiers, I only stayed one day. And they put me on a plane to North Korea. So, I was there like, June, July, August, October, almost six months. [break in audio] 15 months or so.
1:41:15
SM: And, you were working for the Black Panthers there, the international organization?
1:41:21
BCE: Yeah.
1:41:21
SM: But you still have links to all the [inaudible] people here in the United States and Oakland and-
1:41:25
BCE: Yes, until the split came. That, you know.
1:41:30
SM: That was in (19)82?
1:41:31
BCE: No.
1:41:31
SM: Oh.
1:41:32
BCE: (19)71.
1:41:32
SM: And this term, the split? What does that mean? The split. The split happened. Who were the people that were being split? And why did it happen?
1:41:46
BCE: Huey came out, like I said, must have been August of 71. I came back to, Kathleen and I came back to Algiers, October. So, there had been some questions about the leadership and direction that the Black Panther Party was going to take. And Huey and Eldridge had differences of opinion. And, of course, we did not realize at this time, that COINTELPRO was also instrumental in setting that up, you know, letters and whispers and phone calls that made you suspicious of certain things, you know. And−
1:42:49
SM: So, like COINTELPRO was saying that Huey was doing this, and Eldridge- that was a lie? And−
1:42:59
BCE: Not all of it was lies. Some of it was because you came to Africa. And you told us what happened to you. I mean, there were people who came. Who said, "Look, man. This is going on that is going on. The direction is, it is not going this way, it is going that way." And therein lies the split. You see, East Coast, West Coast alliances to Eldridge, alliances to Huey. So just not the destruction of the party, but the destruction of the Black Panther Party as I knew it.
1:43:46
SM: It survived though till about (19)82, did not it?
1:43:49
BCE: Yeah, just about.
1:43:58
SM: Who ended up, if Huey was no longer in power and Eldridge was no longer in power and they ended up leaving, who became the power source, that David Hilliard?
1:44:08
BCE: David Hilliard, I think Elaine Brown was also in there.
1:44:15
SM: And that is the period that that David Horowitz talks about where the person was murdered. And does not, he did not talk about the period when Bobby and Huey were- he was talking about- and Eldridge, he was talking about this period because they were close friends, he was close friend of Eldridge. Enough said. I, a couple things here. Many Black Panthers, I think I have already gone over this, but many Black Panther stated at the time that they were not racist and to not hate whites. And, and of course, there was some perception over there that the Malcolm X kind of mentality that all white people were devils. That was what Malcolm had for a short time in (19)63. And then he went to Mecca, and he did not think that anymore. And I think that was part of the reason why, you know, we was killed, but that is another story. But your thoughts on that. That is all, that is another misinterpretation of the Black Panthers then that, that, that white people were devil that was kind of a Black Muslim mentality.
1:45:28
BCE: Well, it was also a cultural nationalist kind of thing. But I had to respect it because it goes all the way back to slavery, quote, unquote, I mean, you know, so you have to understand, well, I will say, like, a white woman. One day, I was talking to her, and we were having so much fun. And I looked at her and I said, "You are all right." She slapped me. I said, "Why did you slap me?" She said, "I understood what you said. But do not you ever forget that I am white." And I understood what she said. So, you-you-you see this−
1:46:18
SM: Yes.
1:46:19
BCE: -thing here. And what was it? I do not know if Tom Wolfe said it in his book, but for some reason I am thinking he might have.
1:46:27
SM: Chic, that radical chic.
1:46:28
BCE: Radical chic was that, all these little white kids run around here, they can take a bath, get the haircut and put on a suit and go back home. You cannot.
1:46:38
SM: [inaudible] Emery too, but it is [ inaudible]. You are- this was when Bobby and Huey, well they were not in jail. When the Panthers are, you know people are threatened by them. But-but everybody was really got you know, you were recruiting people. What would be a- you get up in the morning? You go over to Oakland, what was the typical day like, for when you were working in Oakland? And were−
1:47:10
BCE: You did not have to go to Oakland. No matter where you were, it was the same routine.
1:47:13
SM: What was your routine?
1:47:15
BCE: Routine. Yeah, you were up at 5, out the house by six. At the breakfast program, wherever it was. You leave there if you were lucky 8:30, 9:00. You go to the office. You pick up 25, 50 papers you might sit around for a few minutes with a cup of coffee, some Tito's talking for a while because depending on what time of day, it was, because you want to be out there by 11. You had to be out. So, whether you were in New York, Philly, 11 o'clock you out on streets selling their paper, you generally return to the office after you sold all your papers. Or at least by four o'clock. Five o'clock at the latest people come in and go in the word blank-blank-blank. You would eat a meal because somebody would cook a pot of beans or anything, you know. Some people would actually go home and then some people would go to paint the pads, where you would sleep on the bed or you know, an army cot, whatever you know or you would go and stay at the office and sit around and talk.
1:48:48
SM: This is all volunteer, this is not paid.
1:48:50
BCE: No, no money. Your needs were met. I mean, we would buy women's sanitary napkins. We did not buy cigarettes you know but the personal things of a few people who did not have family contacts or any money coming in. But then some of us were like always kept friends.
1:49:22
SM: You what?
1:49:23
BCE: Always kept friends.
1:49:25
SM: Oh yeah. [laughter]
1:49:28
BCE: You know the thing about the Bernstein thing let me tell you before Bernstein came along. When DC got called back to New York for the 20 months. I was like so tired of these Panthers. I am running the Panther pad and they angry at me because I am cock blocking, so to speak [laughs]. And so, I had this girl named Lydia and [inaudible} what was [inaudible] name? Well, he was Jewish, and he was so funny. So, I would go to the house, hang out there. They would buy all my papers- do not put this nowhere- they would buy all my papers. And I would sit there and eat, drink. I would stay a couple hours, I would not hang out all day because they had snorting coke, see, I do not I do not do drugs, no drugs. And was this guy called Goldfinger. He had he had a plain fight with the Turks over Turkey.
1:50:44
SM: He had a what?
1:50:45
BCE: [rustle like Easley is making a gesture]
1:50:46
SM: Oh, yeah. Cause he was a drug smuggler. I mean, these people were, I had no idea how interesting they were until we got to New York. Because they said "Well, where is DC" I said, "He is in New York," "Where you want to go, we leaving tomorrow" "Oh, I cannot go, I got to ask Bobby" [knocking noise] "Bobby, Ron and Lydia want me to go to New York with them" And Bobby said, "You are going to do some work, you better send some money back" right. Whatever I had on, I left San Francisco, it was cold. New York is like 100 damn degrees. The building where they took me, if you thought Bernstein's building was something, this building put it to shame. I mean, the women were like with gloves on. I thought the one woman was the Queen of England, the way she- we go up into this apartment and Jesus Christ Superstar comes out. White robe blond hair blue eyes, you know. Six feet tall. Oh, [inaudible] Panther was there. I said, "I do not do that". But these little girls who are no more than 15 or 17 [snorting sounds] And they were white or Black?
1:51:25
BCE: [laughs] Is not no Black people snorting cocaine? All these white people-
1:52:22
SM: And is this in the hotel or−
1:52:29
BCE: No, this is this fabulous apartment building.
1:52:32
SM: Wow.
1:52:34
BCE: So, I call DC, "I am down here DC with these people." "What have you gotten into girl," because he knew, I always kept friends. He comes the next day. And he does like this, you know [inaudible] for Roger. That was Jesus' name, Roger. Roger is fascinated, so Roger is going to take us for a ride, Lamborghini you follow me. Wait, but he is going with Candice Bergen. But he is also part of this Hell Angel gun running club. So, he takes DC over there, they going to talk about guns. This shit is crazy. I go up to Harlem. I am so glad to get away. So that was- we were over in Algiers, North Africa. And you know, you pick up the newspaper, the International Herald Tribune. And you see Roger. You see Roger. "Hey there Roger."
1:53:06
SM: What does he do for a living?
1:53:07
BCE: Well, I am going to tell you about Roger, because this is when the mind is blown. Roger's going with Candice Bergen remember that?
1:53:17
SM: Oh, she is gorgeous, yes. The guy with a white girl?
1:54:12
BCE: Okay.
1:54:13
SM: Yeah?
1:54:16
BCE: But see Roger's father- this is what was interesting. Roger's father lived in New Jersey. He wanted to meet a panther. So, we told Roger to bring DC up there. DC and Barbara, I wish I had taken you with me. He said, "there are people with money and here are people with real money." He said it was like walking back in to- but anyway, they made generous contributions. This is before Bernstein, okay. But then you got to look at David, Huey and Eldridge, Roger. All of them, attracting white women with money and all this bullshit. We overseas in an International Herald Tribune, it says, Roger- [inaudible] Roger? Our Roger had flown to London with a case of LSD, a suitcase full of LSD. They stopped him at the airport, put his ass in jail. His father to see Richard Nixon, and Roger comes home on the plane.
1:55:38
SM: Oh, my gosh.
1:55:39
BCE: And when you- that is what I tell people- when I come back, and I look back, I go, when I tell you. So, you ask me questions and I tell you, we were a small microcosm of society, we were that big, motherfuckers is crazy. [laughter] However, however, in terms of an overview of the last 50 years I do not think my experience are any, so different from a lot of people in active struggle, okay. It is just that I am one more, and the Panthers are one more link in the chain of human development. Okay, that we have contributed to history, by example. And the fact that we have given strength to other people and their movement is, it is a blessing. And that I have lived to see that. So, I do not get, I regret nothing. I regret nothing. And I still look forward to active participation and change. No doubt in my mind, whether, you know, I always say, what is my favorite little saying? Is- I cannot do great things, let me do small things greatly? So that, you know, it is, it is just that.
1:57:46
SM: Yep.
1:57:46
BCE: And it is always a pleasure to talk about my shit too. [laughs] That laugh–
1:57:51
SM: Obviously, you know, when I interviewed Emory and when I talked to Roz [inaudible] a year and a half ago. And of course, I want, I really liked Kathleen, because I saw her in person-
1:58:04
BCE: I know, I know.
1:58:05
SM: -at a very important time in my life when I was 22 years old.
1:58:08
BCE: Wow.
1:58:09
SM: And, and the fact is that I, she was, she was young, too. She was not that much older than me. And the fact is, that she was a young woman who was standing on a stage, showing strength.
1:58:19
BCE: Yeah.
1:58:20
SM: And for a lot of the women in the audience, and a lot of the men who were young, that meant a lot. And so, if you ever share that with her, tell her I said this, because I was not just some it just some no, nobody person trying to get a hold of her. I really admired her because of that speech she gave, which you could have heard a pin drop.
1:58:43
BCE: Wait, Kathleen came here and gave a speech to the young black lawyers of [inaudible].
1:58:50
SM: The Temple?
1:58:51
BCE: No, no.
1:58:52
SM: Oh.
1:58:52
BCE: University of Pennsylvania. "Come downtown," they had the dinners. "Come downtown. I want to see you, come on downtown." So, they are going, "Okay, okay." And [laughs]−
1:59:00
SM: Well, she never comes to Philly to visit you [inaudible]−
1:59:04
BCE: Well, you know something. Is she- what is she, well the email the other day, I know she is going to Paris this week, this weekend, and then she will be back. And when am I coming to Atlanta? Never, cause you going to put me to work. [laughter] Well, anyway.
1:59:24
SM: I have a question here.
1:59:25
BCE: Go ahead.
1:59:25
SM: Please describe in your own words, the meaning of Stokely Carmichael his words when he challenged Dr. King and other civil rights leaders saying, "Your time has passed. Your strategy does not work anymore. Nonviolent protest is old school. Dr. King would never support protesters" and I have heard of this, "Dr. King would have never been the kind of person"-neither would Byard Rustin or certainly James Farmer or Roy Wilkins, or Whitney Young or even a Phillip Randolph or even John Lewis−
1:59:56
BCE: Go ahead.
1:59:57
SM: -who would support the protesters with guns surrounding the capitol in Sacramento because they believed in nonviolent, they would think that would be violent. Your thoughts on- you were aware that Stokely challenged Dr. King, there is that famous picture of Dr. King in like this with Stokely, well, that is really not when Stokely said that- a lot of people try to make that, that is the moment. That was not the moment, but it was through words and speeches. So, the question I am asking is−
2:00:27
BCE: What do I think about it?
2:00:28
SM: Yeah, what do you think about that, "Your time has passed", that is what Malcolm told Byard Rustin in a [inaudible] too.
2:00:34
BCE: But that is also what children tell their parents when they rebel. I am the new school, I think he was with the Sydney [inaudible] and guests who to come to dinner, when he had the speech with his father in the room. And he told his father the same thing. Youth has its own growing, you eat the get out of the way, or they push you out of the way. But sometimes if you are very lucky, they will allow you to hang around. But sometimes the contradiction is so great. And at that time, the contradiction was great. So, I could see Stokely saying that. I personally believed in never going against my family, you know, especially my mother and my father. They were- I mean, you call mom before you call God. So, think about it, you know. But in moments of anger or moments of egotism, you say thing. Not necessarily, it does not mean I will not support you. I just cannot go along with your program any longer.
2:02:08
SM: He has not met. When I reflect upon this, I think of Stokely and his commentary about to Dr. King, whether it was in person or through a lecture or whatever it- or through the papers, or an interview, or and Malcolm debating Byard Rustin in 1963, in New York, where he said, "your time has passed," and he said, "your time has passed." But it was not in a disrespe-. And Malcolm did not do it in a disrespectful manner, it just said it is for years moved on.
2:02:41
BCE: But, but also, we all part of this continuation of bringing humanity to mankind. You know, we are- I mean, Barbara Russell did some great things. Martin Luther King, we have to recognize ancestral progress, because you would not be here today. So, you know, come on. But those were flamboyant times. So, what you going to do?
2:03:16
SM: Yeah, and of course, and correct me if I am wrong. It was around this time that Nick was dying. Because, because what the, John Lewis did not want to go the direction of Stokely.
2:03:28
BCE: No.
2:03:29
SM: And neither did Bob Moses and Moses went on- he was leaving anyways. But yeah, but they were the original Snick and Snick was kind of splitting to with the H [inaudible] and Stokely going to more of a Black power.
2:03:42
BCE: Yeah.
2:03:43
SM: And those, and John Lewis and Bob Moses, and others remaining in that same mold.
2:03:50
BCE: Sure, there you go.
2:03:52
SM: Yeah. I have met a lot- I met John Lewis twice.
2:03:55
BCE: Oh, okay [inaudible].
2:03:56
SM: I had some conversations with him.
2:03:57
BCE: But−
2:03:58
SM: And I just think he is an unbelievable human being. I wish he was in the cabinet. I wish that he would take the next step now and become President Obama's Chief of Staff. I think he needs to go the next step. I think he needs to be close; I think−
2:04:15
BCE: But−
2:04:15
SM: He−
2:04:17
BCE: [Inaudible] How old is he, Louis now?
2:04:19
SM: I- (19)70, maybe.
2:04:20
BCE: Yeah, no-no-no.
2:04:22
SM: But he [inaudible] he was you know he was [inaudible], when you look at the- these are some other questions here- when you look at the boomer generation, that encompasses 74 million people of all races, gender or sexual orientation, political philosophies. What are the characteristics you admire? And what are the characteristics you least admire about this generation?
2:04:40
BCE: About ourselves?
2:04:41
SM: Yeah.
2:04:44
BCE: Well−
2:04:45
SM: I looking, making sure this is, I am going to change this one.
2:04:49
BCE: Okay.
2:04:49
SM: Hold on one second, here we go.
2:04:52
BCE: I admire the fact that. 74 million of us, the worldwide?
2:04:58
SM: No 74 million boomers in the United States.
2:05:01
BCE: In the United States?
2:05:02
SM: Yeah.
2:05:03
BCE: Well, let us knock off 30. Let us knock off 30 million who are lost, okay, in jail, dead, are dying, are on drugs, and let us go with the other 40 million, as you say, who are now in trouble themselves. But I think that since the (19)50s, the boomers have done great things, technology wise, medicine wise. Also, in terms of humanity worldwide, a raising of consciousness of Mother Earth, I am really impressed with those of us who are conscious of world- what is it, warming? What do they call it, you know?
2:06:03
SM: Global warming?
2:06:04
BCE: Global warming, you know. And I think there is about 10, not maybe 15 to 20 million, who are intellectually right wing, and do not give a shit. But then we have this little minority of people who are still active, even though they can collect social security now, but are active and have passed on some traits to our children. And if not, children, by birth, children through education, community, similar interests. So, I am very proud of most of the baby boomers, because done a hell of a job, a hell of a job. And now the grandchildren for lack of a better word that are coming behind us. Not necessarily our children, but our grandchildren. Some of them are serious.
2:07:14
SM: Do you think though, that the-the children, and now the grandchildren for the first time, are they- even in the (19)60s and (19)70s, only about 5 percent may have been activists?
2:07:24
BCE: Yeah.
2:07:24
SM: [inaudible] And-and do you feel that the boomers had really been good parents and from all ethnic backgrounds in terms of sharing their experiences? Number one, what, and are their children listening to those experiences? And secondly, are they carrying any of the characteristics that the 5 percent had, which was to be socially conscious of the surroundings around you, and to care for those who are in need, and not just caring about yourself?
2:07:54
BCE: Well, the (19)70s were the, not (19)70s but the but the (19)80s were the me-my generation, if I remember correctly, that turn, not generation but even some of the baby boomers got caught up in me-mine, and I want money, you know. I think that we have done the best we could, whether it be to education, oral stories, I know quite a few grandchildren, who are more conscious than the generation, their parents, the boomers, children are okay. And if we have another 20 or 30 years, and we are not physically encumbered with illness etc. and our minds are still working, we will still be going, we will still be going, okay. And when your book comes out, they are going to be like, "Wait, who, follow up on that story. Who is that person?"
2:09:06
SM: See, what is happening. I got a publisher, and I have got somebody who is- my main thing now is I got so many transcripts to do.
2:09:13
BCE: You do.
2:09:13
SM: -and to get the final publisher, because I have been doing this all myself. But I already have a commitment from Jan Scruggs of Vietnam memorial, he said, "When you get this book done, in the American History Center, I am going to sell your book."
2:09:25
BCE: Yeah.
2:09:25
SM: American history, and that that, "You are kidding." "No-no-no," I−
2:09:28
BCE: No.
2:09:28
SM: And he is, he does not ever, he is a- he is a rec-, kind of a recluse was but he did say that would be something that I would sell because it is about America. It is about America during the Vietnam War. It is about America. So−
2:09:43
BCE: Well, we the history.
2:09:45
SM: Yeah.
2:09:45
BCE: And they are going to come. Because they come now. I mean, most of my interviews are by high school and college kids. Because they Google me or somebody, they did not want to do something on social program that of the (19)60s, then they find you.
2:10:03
SM: Oh, yeah.
2:10:03
BCE: So, I am feeling good about that. I am feeling good about that. So of course, I hate reality TV.
2:10:14
SM: So, do I. I do not know-
2:10:17
BCE: I mean, how bad is the news and Turner Classic Movies? What the hell is? [laughs]
2:10:24
SM: Yeah, that is the one- that is one of the worries I have about the young people because they got to go and watch reality TV. Well, what about their own lives? I mean, that is reality.
2:10:34
BCE: What, between Twitter and Facebook? I tell my grandsons, the one that is 13 last year. I said, "I tell you what, write me through the mail." Give him envelopes and stamps and my name. Just one page. Just write me anything, what you, read what you did in class. And I will give you $10 for every letter. I am going to be late because I is not paid no money out yet.
2:11:07
SM: Unbelievable, even for 10 bucks!
2:11:10
BCE: So, now but he does his paper delivery and all that other stuff. But in my mind, it is like free money. Okay, what are you going to do?
2:11:27
SM: What is interesting, Derek Bok, now I am getting off the subject here. He, in a recent speech he gave a former president of Harvard, said that college education is supposed to be about preparing young people to be critical thinkers in the world, and to be good writers. And yes, to prepare them for the world to be financially sound to have a, to create a career and all this other stuff. But he is- he thinks that we are lacking in those areas of critical thinking. And in the areas of, and our teachers have to be more creative with students and in getting this out of them. This is not- follows right after, what are your thoughts on the people who blame most of the problems on our society today? Here in 2012, and probably the last 15, 20 years- I am the boomer generation. And on the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Because of the following issues. This was a generation that did not respect law and order. It did not respect authority. It the divorce rate is outrageous. Their lack of church and synagogue attendance really went down into inner spirituality that they were into themselves, this welfare mentality about not being given, being given handouts as opposed to working, this the issue of drugs, of drug culture, instant satisfac- satisfaction and gratification, you know the drugs was about. And even the even the financial crisis we were in because the (19)60s was [inaudible] even Dr. King said, "I am not going to wait any longer." Thurgood Marshall, when he talked about the Civil Rights Act of (19)54 was a gradualist approach that finally took place. And then even then it took a long time after the bill was passed. For equality really take place. Dr. King said oh, I want to know well, that attitude of I want it now, many people believe is part of the reason why we have a financial crisis. They spend, spend, spend, and without worrying about how to pay for it. So, it is a combination of a lot of these particular things. Just your thoughts on those people that criticize the boomers in the (19)60s and early (19)70s for the problems we have in America today.
2:13:33
BCE: I do not think they can put a lot of blame on the boomers. And we, the boomers and I say that term "we." We were not in charge of the World Bank. We are not in charge of Bank of America. The whole concept of raising student loan educations. We did not have an army to go and get the drugs from Thailand and miscellaneous places. We, and we were not masters of deceit. If anything, we were too honest and open and taken advantage of by what Wall Street, the advertising community. But we did not sell out America. We did not we did not sell. I mean you know, take everything overseas. We did not do any of that. And if anything, we were fighting it. We were fighting it. So, during the so called (19)60s and (19)70s, if anything when I look back we were victims of a clever, clever government, institutions, some persons unknown that allowed us like Woody Allen's movie, The Dreamer, allowed us to think we were going to change something overnight. So no, do not go there. And as far as serving institutions even down to it when you mentioned the word religious, I find most boomers a spiritual, not organized religion. And Catholic Church has done its own self in and some of the Christians, my got.
2:16:10
SM: The kinds of sex, drugs, rock and roll was. They point to those three. That is the boomers and the sexual revolution the drugs and−
2:16:23
BCE: But we, I tell you one thing about the (19)60s and (19)70s, we did not have AIDS. Where did that come from, you know. I mean, when that you know, living in San Francisco and I lived in the Haight Ashbury okay, I did see some destructive behavior with LSD, mind alt-, but not with marijuana and coke, nobody could afford it. And nobody really wanted it because if you had marijuana and a glass of wine you was all happy. You know, you had a little music. What was it, sex, drugs and music.
2:17:07
SM: Rock and roll.
2:17:08
BCE: Rock and roll, that was Elvis, we did not have anything to do with that.
2:17:16
SM: The boomers often thought in at that particular time that they were the most unique generation in American history. And a lot of young people that time had an attitude that I am going to change the world for the better we are going to end racism sexism, homophobia, war, save the environment we are going to be different. And the critics will say, "Well geez how is the world different today we have had nothing but ongoing wars ever since and, and now boomers have been leaders for years, we have had the last few presidents have been boomers. And-and now we are not going to have any more boomer presidents. Now we are going into the generation Xers who are going to be president, “What sets them apart from other generations? And how would you compare them to the two generations that have followed the boomers, which is the generation Xers and the millennials that are today's students?
2:18:03
BCE: You know, I read an article in Time from one of these generation Xers as you put it.
2:18:14
SM: They were born any- from (19)65 to 1980.
2:18:18
BCE: Yeah. And I read an article by one of them, and he said that he was concerned about his parents not leaving anything good for him that he wanted to leave for his children. He did not blame it on all boomers. But like I said, maybe it was that 15 to 20 million who never [inaudible] any place but I ever, they never left. But they do control things. So, I am not really but I have a quiet faith that just because I do not see things do not mean they are not happening. I read enough on the internet and magazines to know that there are young people out here who are not into reality shows. Like my son said the other day, every woman is not a falsely, you know? So, every young man once you get past, 22. It is time to give up the silliness. It is time to think about where I am going with this, right. But I just have faith that it is enough people out here to make a difference. And continue. I mean, because if it is not, it was true that 2012 is the end of the damn world. Can I go out and spend all my money now?
2:20:22
SM: You raise a really good point because after King- well, [inaudible] university, the place I used to work at, had their Martin Luther King celebration [inaudible] and I regret that I do not go anymore because I am gone there. But-but I have always felt that even in the celebrations for Dr. King, they were oftentimes missing the point. We are the man, we-service day and all the projects that−
2:20:46
BCE: Yeah.
2:20:46
SM: That is a great thing that he would be loving.
2:20:48
BCE: Yeah.
2:20:48
SM: But the one thing about Dr. King is that he was about "We." Not me." "We." So first off, I do not think he tolerated any of this until he had died of natural causes. Number one, but he had an inherent belief that we all had it within us as individuals to make a difference in this world and did not have to be Dr. King or James Farmer or Malcolm X-
2:21:13
BCE: [agreement]
2:21:13
SM: -or even Bobby sealer.
2:21:15
BCE: Yeah. All-
2:21:16
SM: For you. It is about you. We all have it. And the fact is that when we talk about the unsung heroes, the people we will never know. I often wonder when-when you read when people even talk about the Black Panthers, and we talk about the leaders and the-the-the 30 or 40 names that come forward who were leaders all over the country? How about the Black Panthers who were never in leadership roles? Who may have been in Des Moines, Iowa.
2:21:48
BCE: Thank you.
2:21:50
SM: They contributed too, that is what Dr. King's talking about. I think any leader knows that.
2:21:54
BCE: Well, you know.
2:21:56
SM: They should. [inaudible] A few more here. When did the (19)60s begin in your opinion, and when did they end?
2:22:17
BCE: I do not know why, but (19)65 comes to my mind even though the march was (19)63. So, was the thing-? Kennedy was killed in (19)63, (19)64?
2:22:29
SM: (19)63. November 22, (19)63.
2:22:32
BCE: Okay, and-and then we went into (19)65. I am not sure why I feel that way. But everything exploded. Is that a good way to look at it? It was like, I have to, I am not sure but for some reason, the (19)60s for me began in (19)65.
2:22:59
SM: When did they end in your opinion?
2:23:07
BCE: Close to (19)80. Yeah, (19)75 to (19)80.
2:23:17
SM: Was that the disco era?
2:23:19
BCE: It was but also you look at the age group. People were turning over 35, some 40. And there was a backlash of Ronald Reagan after Reagan, Nixon, the war was over. It was a lot of confusion and also drugs-
2:23:50
SM: And that ended in (19)75.
2:23:51
BCE: Yeah, also drugs, they swept the country, you know. So you are looking at a lot of things that put a damper on fun.
2:24:04
SM: Do you feel I do not know if any in the Black Panther community? I think this came up. I know, Emory mentioned one person but how important were the Beats with respect to their influence on what transpired in the (19)60s and (19)70s? The Beats being Kerouacs the Ginsbergs, the Berlin Gettys the Waldmans the-
2:24:25
BCE: Oh, the Beat yeah, [inaudible]
2:24:26
SM: Gary Snyder, Leroy Jones, I mean all the beats.
2:24:30
BCE: All the Beats, oh you forgot Lenny. Well, Lenny was not a Beat, no he was not. Lenny was ju-, wait okay. But I think they set the stage for some cultural changes, social cultural changes because and they also yes, social cultural change. I think they set the stage for some progressive thought. No doubt. No-no.
2:25:07
SM: Did any of the Panthers read them?
2:25:12
BCE: Oh-oh, let me just think. I do not remember that being on the reading list. I do not remember that being on the student, Black Student Union list any of their works because, no, even−
2:25:31
SM: Not even Leroy Jones?
2:25:33
BCE: No, because he was Leroy Jones. Now on the East Coast, you had another kind of development because the East Coast and especially New York, see New York feeds out. But in California, Hollywood was not a place where people frequent. They, they just made movies, Walt Disney and crap. But no, Leroy Jones- and then if I am not mistaken, he was married to a white woman about then.
2:26:09
SM: Yeah, Hetty Jones.
2:26:10
BCE: Yeah.
2:26:11
SM: And Hetty was a Beat writer too, I have interviewed her.
2:26:14
BCE: But see, no−
2:26:20
SM: Who were, what were the folks that were on that reading list at San Francisco State what were the reading books that were on your list and maybe even the Black Panther list?
2:26:30
BCE: Wretched of the Earth, Black Skin White Masks, [inaudible]. Of course, Mao Zedong. Marx and Lenin's, Lenin's some of Lenin's books
2:26:49
SM: Saul Alinsky?
2:26:50
BCE: Oh-oh.
2:26:51
SM: Saul Alinsky with Rules for Radicals or?
2:26:55
BCE: It probably was to the-the white students who were also rebelling with the- so you did have a mixture of things. Oh, come on, you know that. Well Malcolm X always but uh, oh come on Barbara.
2:27:17
SM: There is Eldridge Cleaver's books, but they became−
2:27:21
BCE: Soul on Ice was the fast read and open for discussion and debate but I−
2:27:26
SM: What about James Baldwin, was he read?
2:27:28
BCE: Yes. Baldwin was read.
2:27:31
SM: Richard Wright?
2:27:32
BCE: Richard Wright, but come on, Don Ali out of Chicago.
2:27:41
SM: I am not sure.
2:27:42
BCE: Yeah, Don Ali, and then you had Sonya Sanchez, you had Don Ali- so it was like an [inaudible]
2:27:48
SM: Maya Angelou too? Was she just starting around then?
2:27:53
BCE: Yeah but Maya-
2:27:55
SM: Nikki Giovanni and her-?
2:27:57
BCE: Giovanni was yes. Maya Angelou so-so because she did come to the Panther school for kids and stuff. I know why the caged Bird Sings, I read that sitting on the toilet, but−
2:28:13
SM: I mean, how about Du Bois? Did you read Du Bois?
2:28:16
BCE: Well, you read Du Bois. [inaudible] you read Du Bois?
2:28:21
SM: And Malcolm?
2:28:22
BCE: Yeah, of course you had to read Malcolm. But everything was a fast learn now I think about it. And it was sort of narrow focus.
2:28:36
SM: And Harry Edward is writing them too.
2:28:38
BCE: No, but Harry [crosstalk] them later.
2:28:40
SM: Yeah.
2:28:40
BCE: Because he came after the Olympic thing with thing with [inaudible] and that. But then you had The Black Scholar, you see, by Nathan Hare. He had people writing articles in his book, so that that was very popular, very popular in the academic setting.
2:29:02
SM: Glazer was another one. Nathan Glazer, Nathan Glazer, then there was so many of them, um.
2:29:09
BCE: Do not worry
2:29:10
SM: I know there was, I do not know if anybody in your group read the Making of a Count- Theodore Roszak's and The Making of a Counterculture, which was a very popular book back then too. And The Greening of America, Charles Wright.
2:29:23
BCE: Now I remember The Greening of America, did not read it. I remember that.
2:29:28
SM: Those are kind of classics. What did the Vietnam War mean to African Americans in the (19)60s and (19)70s? Where did the Panthers stand on the war? And secondly, when Dr. King gave his speech against the war in 1967, at Riverside Church in New York, where did the community in Oakland stand with respect to his views on the war?
2:29:49
BCE: Well, we were against the war, period, and also because it was the oppression of another people, and when King came out against the war, well, that was fine with us. Oh, yeah. Because that, but-but-but you know what was funny about that, when he came out against the war? I remember sitting around with a group of Panthers and saying, they going to get him now. They going to get him, because you cannot do that. Okay. I remember that very clearly.
2:30:27
SM: I had a person I interviewed who was at Michigan State, who saw him speak there in an auditorium and she said, she was close to the stage. This was in the morning. Sure, be given that speech yet. But she said she close to the stage. And she was a sophomore, and she said, "I looked up at him," and the first thing she said "He is too good.”
2:30:52
BCE: [laughs] Oh, yeah-yeah!
2:30:53
SM: He knows the truth too much, he cannot survive.
2:30:57
BCE: And that was the same when-when that, you took that antiwar position. That was our first thought. You are not, you are not going to- they are going get you.
2:31:08
SM: Because even the people, the even people in the administration from LBJ on down, I mean.
2:31:15
BCE: Oh, they were [inaudible]?
2:31:15
SM: An enemy.
2:31:16
BCE: Yeah. So, what was that, was the answer to the question?
2:31:20
SM: Yeah, I think that was the answer to that question. We were up to here, it was on the Vietnam War. Was there a concern within the Black Panther community to about the fact that so many African Americans were in large numbers were going to that war in Vietnam, based on the fact that many of them were coming from the inner city, and they had they could not get out of the war? Because like, so many of the people in college, they had deferments, whereas people in the community, in the cities−
2:31:45
BCE: Well, this was not- one thing. I do remember that we were aware that a large number of African Americans, but because we were working with other groups, Hispanic, Asian, white people we were working with, we were aware that nobody should be going over there. But we were also aware of the fact that deferments were being given to blah-blah-blah Now and that was when we started sending a newspaper overseas, yeah, we started sending.
2:32:31
SM: So, the Black Panther Paper was being sent overseas?
2:32:36
BCE: Yeah.
2:32:36
SM: The were, what part, where?
2:32:38
BCE: We- well, let us start with Sweden.
2:32:42
SM: London? Because−
2:32:44
BCE: London, Germany, wherever there were-
2:32:49
SM: France, Paris?
2:32:50
BCE: I am not su- well, I am sure of this. There were a big man, the Big Man, he traveled to these places, because they were what was called Solidarity Committees. And whoever wanted to get paper, we sent it to them, and they would take it to different spots where the GIs were. So that helps. But that war was bad for everybody, just like this one.
2:33:23
SM: Yeah, the antiwar protests were not only happening in London.
2:33:26
BCE: Everywhere.
2:33:27
SM: They were happening in Paris. And I believe they were happening in Poland. There was some, there was a lot of stuff going on Eastern Europe, Western Europe, and I think even in Japan. There is a question here, can I use your bathroom, just real fast?
2:33:42
BCE: Real fast, [inaudible]
2:33:43
SM: [audio resumes] All right. So, the next question here is, this is a question as kind of a follow up to Vietnam. When John Kennedy gave that speech, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you-you can do for your country," what is an [inaudible] of speech, and the capital. A lot of people have this perception that the boomer generation is a generation of service. They think of a Peace Corps. They think of the volunteers and service to America, they think of giving back to others, you know, caring about others beyond yourself the whole concept of service. And in a book called The Wounded Generation, a book that came out in 1983, there is a panel discussion with Vietnam veterans that included Philip Caputo who wrote a Rumor of War. Bobby Muller, founder of Vietnam Veterans of America, Jack Wheeler the third who was actually murdered this past year in Delaware, who was one of the main founders or fundraisers for the Vietnam Memorial. He is a graduate of the class of (19)66 at West Point. And James Fallows, a writer for Atlantic Monthly and then this conversation, Jim Webb was also in that group who was who was now the United States Senator from Virginia, and he raised something that was very important in the discussion and that is that he felt that this discussion that the boomer generation is a- the generation of service, this- [audio cuts] These are good berries. The generation, what was I saying? The generation of service- he-he-he said that he felt that you cannot label this generation this way because many refused to go to the war. If you are a service-oriented generation then when your nation causes you to go to war, you go. So that that there is a real good discussion of this book on it and this transcribed and so I have been raising this question ever since I raised the book, not in the first half of people interviewed, but this question of, you know, what are your thoughts on that, that his commentary that we are the boomers are not [inaudible] the service oriented generation, yet many times are often labeled as a generation that was inspired by Kennedy's speech and all the Peace Corps and all the others.
2:36:06
BCE: But his comment is narrow. Because he acts like people who went to war, were the only people that count, or no, no, that is why I do not like all or most of- it does not apply. Because just because- you heard the call from Kennedy. Does not mean that others sitting here the same call, and wanted to do it differently. And many did. I mean, I, just-many did, no-no. I−
2:37:00
SM: You know that that could if you even go to the extreme here.
2:37:03
BCE: Yeah.
2:37:03
SM: That is even basically saying, then, if it is not, that the Black Panthers, even though some might consider them.
2:37:08
BCE: Yeah.
2:37:08
SM: A radical group, they do not understand it because they did not. But-but their service to the community of Oakland, which will spread to the service in New York, that was service, service to others. So, he is basic less another extension of the service mentality within the generation.
2:37:26
BCE: Well, you know, the military, any chance to work with, around the military in Germany. [laughs] And they scare me more than a policeman scare me.
2:37:48
SM: Then or now?
2:37:49
BCE: Both because there is- but I have worked. But it is a microcosm of society, I cannot get away from that.
2:38:07
SM: Right.
2:38:08
BCE: No matter, when you are in organizations, institutions, they just reflect some of the bigger society, you know, but unfortunately, even with the party and the military, the police, the internal thing does not always come from the top to the bottom. And sometimes, if top is corrupt, the bottom is going to be violent. So, when we talk about service, everybody got a definition, do not they?
2:38:53
SM: I agree.
2:38:53
BCE: So.
2:38:54
SM: Good point. Kind of a takeoff here, the question I have asked everyone from day one, when I interviewed former Senator McCarthy, when I started this way back in (19)96, when I was working full time.
2:39:09
BCE: Go ahead.
2:39:10
SM: The question is this, do you feel that the boomer generation, like the Civil War generation, will be going to its grave, not truly healed from the tremendous divisions that tore us apart during the (19)60s, (19)70s and early- maybe even in the (19)80s. And then, of course, it is the culture wars spreads it even more, for those who want to go back to the (19)50s, the way it was, as opposed to those who believe that we have made a lot of progress. So, the question is, is healing. Do you feel that a lot of the boomers Black, white, male, female, gay, straight are going to go there because they never healed from the divisions between black and white male and female, gay and straight those who were for the war and against the war? Just a question, do you think we are a nation that has is going to have a tremendous problem healing?
2:40:04
BCE: We will see. You are talking about a group; I can only think individually. And I believe that individually, there are many people who are at risk within their souls. That no, I did not accomplish everything I set out to, but some things were done, and that is all I can do. So, no, I do not want to honor- you know, it is like, the oldest profession in the world. It has been here before the Bible, do not worry about it. Just makes sure that everybody gets health checks. That is all, okay. So, it is like, I am not going to stop that. But look at this. My son married an Asian woman, and I fought the Japanese. I fought the Viet Cong. And now my grandchildren are Asian. You got to make peace.
2:41:14
SM: That is a really good point. Because I think the reason why this question came up originally, was because of the fact that I wondered how the antiwar people, when they visited the Vietnam Memorial for the first time, and they were bringing their children-
2:41:28
BCE: Right.
2:41:28
SM: -and they looked up to their mom and dad, who may have an antiwar and did not serve and got out any way they could, that that they felt guilty that they did not serve. So, I think that is where I was coming from. But it is also about the issue. We asked this, when I went to see took group of students to see Edmund Muskie, the former United−
2:41:46
BCE: Go ahead.
2:41:46
SM: -States Senator and we asked him that very same question, "Did you feel the divisions?" And he-he, the students came up with this question, because they had seen all the divisions of the riots of the cities, the 1968, when the murders of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy and the convention in Chicago and all that, I mean, those and they see and they said, "Man, that is, that is like a Civil War, how can you ever heal from this?" And they asked Senator Muskie who was the vice-presidential candidate at that convention, and he did not even respond in the way, he said, he said, "You know, we have not healed since the Civil War on the issue of race." And then he went and he said, and then he went on and said, "I just." He was in the hospital, he died six months later- and he said, "I was in the hospital, and I was watching Ken Burns Civil War series, and I said, Man.” He realizes 600,000 Americans died in that war, almost an entire generation taken away. And, and for what" and he talked about healing there, and he said, we have not healed in the area of race. And he said, so he did not even mention the (19)60s. And so that that was why I you know.
2:42:51
BCE: I just, but it is like I said, like I said, make sure everyone gets a health check.
2:43:00
SM: How are we doing time wise? Are we okay here?
2:43:01
BCE: Oh, I am fine, you the one got time−
2:43:04
SM: I am going to I got the [inaudible]. The-the question of trust, too. One of the characteristics of the boomer generation is that the younger generation, that trusts very much, they saw their leaders lie. Boomers grew up, I think it did not matter what background they were from. They saw presidents on TV lie, they saw the President and the statistics of the Vietnam War, which we all knew were being, you know, escalated, we saw, you know, what they experienced Watergate, they experienced the lies about Vietnam, you know.
2:43:39
BCE: Yeah.
2:43:40
SM: But see what happened, you know, during that whole period, is that the boomer generation, oftentimes, many of them that were involved in activism, did not trust anyone in a position of leadership, whether it be a president of the United States, president of a university, a head of a corporation, even the head of a church. I mean, they did not trust anybody in leadership roles.
2:43:59
BCE: Well, what was that [inaudible] nobody over 35.
2:44:03
SM: See that, that was from Jerry, Jerry Rubin. And then when they realized they were going to be 30, they upped it to 40.
2:44:12
BCE: But, uh−
2:44:17
SM: Is that a good not to trust people, or is it?
2:44:19
BCE: Well, you know, something? We grew up with that. We bathed in it, we slept with it, we know it. And what is very interesting to me is because of Steve Jobs, okay. The last two generations know it too. And they know it. It is they; I mean, it is unbelievable when you turn that computer on. Like, I usually turn it on in the morning, check all my emails, and I turn it [inaudible] and turn it on at night. You know, I delete a lot because you have to, but no, we really- see, and I am going to use that "we" interesting because for some Chinese Americans, Asians, Japanese Americans on the West Coast, during the (19)40s, the war. They closed their communities when they got out of them damn encampments, okay. Because they saw, what was happening, okay. Like I tell people, Japan on the [inaudible] look at them. Then, you look at Latinos. And even the Black farmers in the south, you know. So, the bombers got a lot of information from their parents. So, but we were more sophisticated in terms of certain things, and now the children, instant. And then they will run your heads out of town based on the fact- I mean, how do you get a satellite to show you my house, from space? You go on your computer, and you go. [tapping noises]
2:46:28
SM: Yeah, you can see your house.
2:46:29
BCE: Come on, you know, come on. So.
2:46:32
SM: Nothing is private anymore.
2:46:34
BCE: Nothing-nothing.
2:46:36
SM: You talk about trusting then, well God who can you trust now?
2:46:40
BCE: Why do you have to trust anybody?
2:46:42
SM: You know, it is interesting, it is the first thing you will learn in political science 101 in college is that the govern- if you, that not trusting your government is healthy. Because, it is healthy in the long run, because that means you are keeping them on their toes.
2:47:04
BCE: Get the movie, V for Vendetta.
2:47:07
SM: Oh, I seen it. Yeah. [crosstalk]
2:47:10
BCE: [in sarcastic tone] People should not be afraid of their government. Government should be afraid of their people.
2:47:18
SM: I noticed that mask was on the occupied people.
2:47:21
BCE: Yes, and when I was in Oakland, I went right down there and joined them. I had big fun, until I realized that somebody thought I was the homeless. [laughter]
2:47:30
SM: The movements, like I am done to my last three questions here. The movements, from the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, there were so many of them, of course, the ongoing Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement, the American Indian movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian, bisexual, transgender movement and the Chicano movement. You get the environmental movement from Earth Day in 1970. And you had the Puerto Rican, and the Asian Americans were also involved in their own movement and so forth. They seem there, seemed to be a unity back then you could see the groups kind of supporting each other and there would be a protest and they would be, you can see banners from all of them. Now, they seem to be- there does not seem to be any unity anymore, that the women's movement has their banners, the, they are not kind of working together, they become more isolated. They are, they are out there, but they are not working together. And what does that say? Is it, they- in other words, the causes, people care about the causes and other movements but when you have a protest, it does not seem, they do not seem to be there? Am I wrong? They seem to be more divided and isolated than they are working together like they did in the late (19)60s and (19)70s.
2:48:40
BCE: Was not that a most unusual time? See, that was the most unusual time, and its so many factors that enter into why not? As I got older, everybody got jobs. Everybody got families. And I think we spoiled some of our children. [laughs] You know, I think some of the children got spoiled. And I do not mean like after the Korean War or World War Two, no-no-no, I mean, some of these little buggers got spoiled. And also- that is the students you hear next door, the "thump-thump."
2:49:44
SM: Oh, there is students living next door?
2:49:46
BCE: All around me.
2:49:47
SM: Oh, these are all student housing?
2:49:48
BCE: Well, this is my house but all up, all up and down the block.
2:49:53
SM: This is all student housing, this whole structure?
2:49:55
BCE: Except for one other [inaudible]
2:49:56
SM: And your sister lives upstairs?
2:50:00
BCE: Every day they want to buy it though. I am not selling.
2:50:02
SM: Oh, for student housing, right? [laughs]
2:50:05
BCE: Yeah, I am not going to sell it.
2:50:06
SM: Yeah.
2:50:06
BCE: But I do not know, the answer could be placed on one or two things. But sometimes I hear other boomers saying, we stopped working. You know, we stopped working as hard as we used to certain degrees of achievement, because from the (19)70s. The, for me, I looked at the number of Black politicians who were elected across this country. Okay, I mean, locally, city council. And not senators, but representatives, all kind of things, appointments to colleges. Doing (19)70s I think everybody wanted to get as much Black shit in the college as they could. And I saw that as a turnaround for a lot of the Black movement, okay. And then it was a question of acceptability. I mean, when I went to a ceremony for the unveiling of the Malcolm X stamp, you know, when I said, "Oh shit, he is, he is pasteurized. They pasteurized him." So−
2:51:48
SM: Oh, like, Dr. King's.
2:51:50
BCE: Well, no, see, not Dr. King, Dr. King is separate. Malcolm, and I was like "Woa"
2:52:00
SM: Where that statue, where was that put up?
2:52:02
BCE: No, a stamp.
2:52:03
SM: Oh, a stamp.
2:52:03
BCE: Yeah, it should be Malcolm X stamp.
2:52:05
SM: Oh, that is right.
2:52:05
BCE: The post office- and I was like "What the fuck." And his daughter and Dr. King's daughter were both there and nicey cutie booty. Look, who knows. Everybody has some examples that they could give, but I know some things that I saw and during the 80s, the explosion of "Me, my give me" for 10 years or more. And−
2:52:43
SM: Yeah, Christopher Lash when he wrote that book, The Culture of Narcissism which was the 1979 book, he was basically complaining it was boomers, it was not really Generation X because they were too young. He said it was that the-the generation that was supposed to be all into helping others is really only into helping themselves, and that was the culture of narcissism.
2:53:02
BCE: Well, I am just going to−
2:53:06
SM: Yeah. Let me stop this?
2:53:07
BCE: I am coming right back, I am going to see if these are hot enough to eat.
2:53:15
SM: With the culture of narcissism, so.
2:53:20
BCE: It is, it is−
2:53:26
SM: When you look at the- can I get this on here? When you look at the new Black Panther Party today, how do they how are they different from the-the old Black Panthers? I know the criticisms, read all the news about it and they are, some people say they are a racist organization whereas the original, the original group is not. How do their tactics and beliefs differ from the original Black Panthers and how our-man I tell you- how do people like the-the leadership from the past that are still alive, what do they think of these people? I mean, here is- because they are taking the logo and the name, and their-could-should not they have just picked another name? I am just wondering.
2:54:13
BCE: Well, they are.
2:54:15
SM: [inaudible] they have a right to it but.
2:54:17
BCE: It is, you know, they are nothing like us. Okay. They are nothing like us. They are very much so anti-white, anti-Jewish, they make no bones about it. They were paramilitary in their dress. Where even though we bought blue and black, basically we were some of the girls always trying to be cute. And they do a few things that we do, rather we did like maybe a clothing drive, or I have seen a few things. But they offend more than they bring it, okay. And their circle is very small.
2:55:15
SM: How many? How many people are in it?
2:55:16
BCE: Oh, no, I do not know what I am saying the circle of friends.
2:55:21
SM: Not like it was back-
2:55:22
BCE: Oh, no-no-no, nothing is like it was back then even the cultural communities of today are nothing like they were then. So, I think people are able to separate then and now. You know, people can, I have never worried too much about them.
2:55:52
SM: I do not know where they stand on the area of guns. And the do they carry guns or−
2:55:57
BCE: No, please.
2:56:01
SM: I saw the leader that was on TV, he looks well, I do not know a whole lot about him, but supposed to be fairly highly educated. I want to get back here for−
2:56:18
BCE: Re-read it.
2:56:19
SM: Yeah, the-the individuals here, we have gone over them. But in terms of leadership, and when we think of leaders, there are certain qualities people have.
2:56:30
BCE: Yeah.
2:56:30
SM: And I am back to these names again, from the original. Just a few things about the leadership style of Huey Newton. Just-just a couple things.
2:56:42
BCE: Okay. I will be right there with your answer. [audio cuts] Oh, what was it about Huey you wanted to know?
2:56:52
SM: Leadership, his leadership style?
2:56:55
BCE: Well, you must understand that he was not out of jail long enough for it to really develop. Okay, because the Party was formed in (19)66. The latter part of October. So, you figure in (19)67, he was doing a little a little organizing, but it was small groups. And the then the shootout [inaudible] jail. So, I mean, he left a lot on Bobby. And at that time, Bobby was very-
2:57:41
SM: He is the next person, what-what made him a leader?
2:57:44
Bobby? I think people liked him. And he moved very fast. He did not sit still you know that type of thing? He could give some hell of speeches.
2:58:02
SM: Oh, no.
2:58:02
BCE: He could talk about the devil. So- I saw him at Ohio State too. But also, Bobby had a love that came across for whatever he was talking about, how he felt. Yeah, that was the one thing about him is his love for people [inaudible]. And he was a gentle person in a way. But you know, sometimes when you are in a leadership position, so many pressures coming to bear. You tried to escape.
2:58:41
SM: How about Eldridge Cleaver?
2:58:44
BCE: Oh.
2:58:45
SM: What-what made him, what made him kind of special.
2:58:48
BCE: Outside of the fact that he was a tall man? He would be talking to you, because he had great green eyes. And he would always lean back and sort of go [gestures] like the hand was moving, talking. He appealed to the street man because of all his [inaudible] in terms of being in the jailhouse or jail, but he never changed. If he had a position with me, it was the same position he had with you.
2:59:38
SM: He was consistent.
2:59:39
BCE: Yeah, and yeah, that that was the one thing I noticed. But he was really funny, too. He was funny, because he would be sitting there talking and the next thing you know he was cussing [laughs].
2:59:59
SM: What about Kathleen, what made her special?
3:00:06
BCE: Fiery-fierce. I mean, I used to- do not you repeat this, please- but one thing I noticed in the whole time I was in the struggle. The whiter your skin, the more fierce you were. [laughs]
3:00:25
SM: Really?
3:00:26
BCE: No. But I noticed that about a lot of people because it is a defense, you understand? But Kathleen was very intelligent, real sincere. I mean, I think she was more sincere than Eldridge ever was. So, I mean, she was really−
3:00:43
SM: She was a fiery speaker.
3:00:44
BCE: Yeah.
3:00:45
SM: I wish they had taped it. Because I do not know how many of our speakers, but there is a lot of Bobby's out there but I wish they had one of hers, when she was young.
3:00:57
BCE: She is still goo now.
3:00:59
SM: How about Emory? Emory Douglas, what made him special?
3:01:03
BCE: Sweetness. Kindness. Jovial. Emory's, everything came out in Emory's heart, Emory was just a nice man. And still is, you know, he is, he is a vegan.
3:01:26
SM: When I go out to Calif- I will not go this year, I think I will go next year, I am going to visit him. Because I like to, and I want to take a picture. He has already sent me a picture but, what made I guess, Stokely Carmichael special?
3:01:45
BCE: Well, I guess we have to look at what-what time period in his life are we talking about?
3:01:51
SM: I think probably the periods of the (19)60s and (19)70s.
3:01:53
BCE: Okay.
3:01:55
SM: When he was young.
3:01:56
BCE: Yeah-yeah well fierceness again and in your face, attitude towards the systems, you know, in your face attitude, but he knew, Stokely knew what he was talking about. No, I mean he would not say nothing that- see they were all college educated and most of them were college educated and very, oh just thinking about it now, you know, all those things that make leadership- what is the word when you are attracted to something- cares, charismatic? Yeah. So, sort of like preachers today. [laughs]
3:02:46
SM: How about H Rap Brown, what made him special? He is in jail now for the rest of his life but−
3:02:52
BCE: Yeah, sunglasses.
3:02:55
SM: That made him special?
3:02:56
BCE: Sunglasses.
3:03:01
SM: His brother just died, Heath Charles Brown, did you know him?
3:03:04
BCE: No. But I remember his name. I think Rap-
3:03:16
SM: He gave a great interview.
3:03:19
BCE: Okay, what was it that Rap used to say? Off Whitey, remember those two three phrases?
3:03:30
SM: Oh yeah.
3:03:30
BCE: And then Emmy drew that picture of him. And I was like, "What in the world." But seeing George Foreman was the man.
3:03:42
SM: The Boxer?
3:03:45
BCE: George Foreman. Come on.
3:03:49
SM: He was the, the one from the Civil Rights Movement?
3:03:52
BCE: Foreman.
3:03:54
SM: James Foreman.
3:03:54
BCE: James, did I call him George?
3:03:56
SM: He is from, he is in California, isn't he?
3:03:58
BCE: No, he is dead, isn't he?
3:04:00
SM: I thought he was still alive.
3:04:01
BCE: No, why do I think he is dead but my brain is not working today.
3:04:05
SM: But he was with Snick too, did not he?
3:04:07
BCE: Yeah, but the Master, you ever get a chance to read his book?
3:04:13
SM: I know James Babble was a fiery guy too.
3:04:15
BCE: Crazy motherfucker. [laughs]
3:04:18
SM: He was from Philadelphia here for a long time, he had an [inaudible]
3:04:21
BCE: [agreement]
3:04:24
SM: What made, I guess the other one who I also have here, what made the gentleman from Fred Hampton special?
3:04:36
BCE: The usual. Charismatic, intelligent, always knew what he was talking about. No doubt, no doubt. Yeah, that boy was he was definitely a threat to the system.
3:04:53
SM: Because Bobby Rush ended up becoming a congressman. Did you know, Bobby?
3:04:56
BCE: Yeah, yeah, I know Bobby.
3:04:58
SM: How does a guy become a Black Panther, and then become part of the establishment?
3:05:02
BCE: Well, no, no, he is still very, Bobby is, well, he has just finished. He was here in October, I saw him in October, recovering from cancer.
3:05:14
SM: Oh, I did not know that.
3:05:16
BCE: Recovering. He is, he is doing pretty good. Doing pretty good. Cause he gave a real nice little talk at this dinner party I went to.
3:05:28
SM: Did he come here for treatment or−
3:05:30
BCE: I do not know, did this little group of Panthers that had something, I went to the dinner party.
3:05:39
SM: And how about the, the other people that were the that were on the shirt?
3:05:44
BCE: The Forte?
3:05:44
SM: The Forte brothers [inaudible]
3:05:48
BCE: They could survive in any culture because they were like to Tupac, Biggie Smalls straight out of Brooklyn or Oakland hills. I mean, Oakland is a very−
3:06:01
SM: You want to survive and−
3:06:02
BCE: Oh yeah. And so Forte Brothers had that.
3:06:04
SM: And how bout Bobby Hutton?
3:06:07
BCE: So young, so young.
3:06:09
SM: And was killed, he was killed by a police or?
3:06:12
BCE: Well.
3:06:16
SM: Hold on, let me see here. This is A yeah, and now we go to B, very good. This one is going to end probably.
3:06:25
BCE: Well Martin Luther King was killed April the fourth. And a little Bobby was killed April the sixth.
3:06:33
SM: The same year, (19)68?
3:06:34
BCE: Yeah, was in the same day. I mean, two days.
3:06:37
SM: Yeah.
3:06:41
BCE: That was I think, you remember when Martin Luther King was killed how to cities erupted and same in Oakland and Eldridge and, was it [inaudible]
3:06:56
SM: What were the circumstances of Bobby's death, was he−
3:06:59
BCE: Well, the cops surrounded the house and they said, "Come out." Eldridge took his clothes off. The other boy took his clothes off. Bobby did not take his clothes off.
3:07:12
SM: He just came out with his clothes on, and they shot him?
3:07:15
BCE: Well, I mean, you know? He told me to hold my hands up and [inaudible] drop one. I mean, there was so many bullets [inaudible] that−
3:07:28
SM: Some of the other people here, just your overall thoughts on these people. What were your thoughts on George Jackson? Because we all know he was prison there and died? Who was he and why is he important?
3:07:47
BCE: You have to go to−
3:07:49
SM: And Angela Davis−
3:07:50
BCE: Wait, wait, wait stop, stop. Okay, I just realized. George was in prison. So [inaudible] and there was in the prisons in California, there were Panther chapters. [phone rings] Or affiliate.
3:08:08
SM: Yep.
3:08:10
BCE: I think, so. I know he was one of these in one of them some, some branch or chapter because he was the Field Marshal of some, something that- I do not remember the title. But he had the ability to write. And he had been in jail long enough. And he had read most of the books on the reading list. So, he, he had the ability. And he was a person of note, not because of Angela Davis but because of himself. But when his brother Jonathan, that was 1970, August of 1970 went up in a courtroom shooting and killing and popping and oh god. That brought attention to him, and it was also the time that they were looking for her.
3:09:15
SM: Right.
3:09:16
BCE: But before that, I did not know him because I was already overseas. And I cannot remember if he had written something in the paper.
3:09:32
SM: I remember reading someplace and they were just waiting to get him or something like that. And then there is one other person was killed, or two of them I think and they were coming out together and he was one of them.
3:09:41
BCE: Well, the boy was, I think he died. I do not remember how he died. I do not think anybody was with him. They blamed it on his lawyer bringing a gun, which makes no sense.
3:09:53
SM: Yeah, and Angela was not a Black Panther, but she was certainly
3:09:58
BCE: She was a great supporter in the beginning.
3:10:00
SM: Why should people know about Angela Davis? What was about her that made her special?
3:10:05
BCE: Well, for me it would be the story of Georgia Jackson and her part in that. And that would always lead them back to her younger life before she became a seen that little bit of time in jail. And I mean Russia, every communist in the world wanted this girl out, okay. I mean, it was unbelievable. And I think everybody has a history. But some people have pertinent time zone history. And Angela is definitely one of them. But I like her because of her position on the indu-, military-military industrial complex. And when she talks about history, she is very clear about things. And I think she is safe now. Okay. Very safe. Not like Kathleen. I think that time in jail, and I have never been to jail, so I cannot testify. But some people come out, they straighten up and fly right. And they get a job at the University of California San Bernardino professor of [laughs] Ph. D. of that, this bullshit.
3:12:03
SM: I know Angela is at Santa Cruz, I think was not she- she taught Santa Cruz?
3:12:09
BCE: She is all over the place talking, whatever.
3:12:12
SM: She retired though; I think.
3:12:13
BCE: uh-uh [disagreement] No, she is still working.
3:12:14
SM: No? What did you think of the Tommy Smith and John Carlos and their stand there with the- you know we had, we had Tommy on our campus, but he made it a point, he said, "Do not ever put me with a Black Panthers. I am not a Black Panther. But I believe in Black power." He was emphatic about that.
3:12:30
BCE: Yeah, well I do not blame him, shit. [laughs]
3:12:33
SM: And of course, John Carlos has a book out now, finally.
3:12:36
BCE: Oh, yeah.
3:12:37
SM: They, just your thoughts on their courage in (19)68? I mean, they got, they got hell.
3:12:44
BCE: See, I watched one of the-the one they put a book out in last seven months ago?
3:12:50
SM: That is John.
3:12:51
BCE: And like he said, he said, "We were upset about some things that were happening to them. There. And in Mexico. And when we came out, we put our fists up thinking like, we want to bring some attention to the bullshit, but not to the shit-shit" okay. So, you, you became a symbol, a whatever they became that everybody was, like all Black athletes around the world. And not just Black, see, this is why it is important.
3:13:36
SM: Yeah.
3:13:36
BCE: Because the man who helped him with the book is, was a young white man who was there at the time. And he watched them go through so much shit. And he is Jewish, this, see I found all this interesting. He said that "I was there. I saw how they were treated; I saw how the Jews were treated, some of the Jewish athletes." He said, "You cannot tell-" And the head of the Olympics−
3:14:11
SM: Yeah, I know.
3:14:12
BCE: -was a German, this German [inaudible] or something, right? He said, "Man, look here. You would not believe the stuff that happened to them, me and everybody," but like, a lot of the things, accidentally you get put in history. Because when he was talking, his wife committed suicide. No, you know, he said it was not- I mean, the hardships some people go through, because I volunteered for struggle. He just happened to. [laughs]
3:14:50
SM: Yeah, and what is interesting is a lot of other athletes at that Olympics were doing it too and I remember Lee Evans there was another athlete, the long-distance runner and-and then a lot of female athletes were doing the same thing. But those, but that particular season, George Foreman the boxer refused to do it remember?
3:15:06
BCE: Oh, well.
3:15:06
SM: Yeah, he refused to do it.
3:15:08
BCE: George Foremen, and that is why I [inaudible] kick his ass. [laughs]
3:15:12
SM: Yeah. You know, when you think of the two athletes that stand out betw- is you think of two athletes, when you think of Black power, you think of Muhammad Ali, and you think of Kareem Abdul Jabbar who changed his name.
3:15:24
BCE: And what is his face? Joe Frazier, see−
3:15:28
SM: Well, there is a big difference between Mohammed Ali and Joe Frazier though in terms of−
3:15:31
BCE: Yeah. [inaudible] eat a cookie.
3:15:32
SM: And then Kareem Abdul Jabbar I remember coming here into Philadelphia.
3:15:37
BCE: Oh yeah.
3:15:37
SM: Changed his name and he had the big, of course he is [inaudible] well, jeez thanks. I did not expect to be eating, I really want to thank you for this, by [inaudible]
3:15:47
BCE: Well, I saw you with the water bottle, so I said well, "he is not going to be here long, but if he did, I am going to throw them little cakes in there." [sings, laughs]
3:15:56
SM: But, uh.
3:15:57
BCE: Go ahead.
3:15:58
SM: They kind of stood out, Muhammad Ali.
3:16:01
BCE: Yeah.
3:16:02
SM: I know that [inaudible] taking, the even when George Frazier passed away people were really empathetic more toward George Frazier, and who he was as a person and, and some of the things that Muhammad Ali did to him. But what in the community in the Black Panther community, what did they think of the, of Muhammad Ali and like Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Because they stood out as athletes who really were symbolic of Black Power.
3:16:34
BCE: [Inaudible] Of course, they were heroes. But I do not think we made a real big deal of them, you know, in terms of newspaper, because they had enough publicity. And the other thing is, Muhammad Ali was a Muslim under the Nation of Islam. And we had issues because Malcolm was gone. Okay.
3:17:09
SM: Yeah.
3:17:09
BCE: So, it was like, okay, acknowledge, leave it alone.
3:17:13
SM: The same thing with Kareem. He was because he, he had links to with the [inaudible]
3:17:19
BCE: No, no, Kareem was more Eastern. But Black Muslims came after him, [inaudible].
3:17:31
SM: Harry Edwards was an important person too, because he was on Berkeley campus in the early (19)70s. And of course, he was involved in not only the, what happened in the 1968 Olympics, because he was the advisor there, but at Cornell University in 1969, when the students took over the union with guns. Okay. Was there any inspiration to the Black Panthers from that incident at Cornell? Was there any kind of linking- I know (19)66 is when the Panthers started?
3:17:57
BCE: Well.
3:17:58
SM: But that scene in (19)69, they were not Panthers, they were−
3:18:01
SM & BCE: Students.
3:18:02
BCE: But see, the student movement was still exploding everywhere. Remember, back then, the news was coming from the west to the east, instead of vice versa. And now, there was a lot of support for that. The newspapers gave support. You see, articles were written. But there was an article in The New Yorker. It was about two years ago; I think I got rid of it. And it was the- some anniversary of the Cornell blah-blah-blah 09. And I forget who wrote it, whether it was a student or a faculty member, but I found it interesting, because they said the Black Panthers came up to support the students.
3:19:02
SM: That is right, they did.
3:19:03
BCE: Yeah. And I was like, oh, I guess I do not even know [crosstalk]
3:19:06
SM: Yeah, I lived in that area, I was in Binghamton and-and I read about it, and you have no idea.
3:19:12
BCE: Mm hmm. Yep.
3:19:13
SM: The fear that-that area of New York State there is a lot of wackos. And so, there was a fear that these wackos these hunters were coming, to come out of nowhere and murder the students. And some of the professors that were there were, obviously they were upset with the administration for not coming down harder on them at the time, and in fact, several professors knew, the conservative professors knew that they were going to leave the university at that time, and one of them was Thomas Sol. African American, who's now has written a lot of books, was at Stanford. He was one of the professors who left, I do not know if that was exact incident, but he left and there were a couple other professors who left. I think Alan Bloom might have been one, who took his, when he got in a car took his family, I have done so much reading, and he had to leave Cornell he was really upset with the administration for not coming down harder on this. [Inaudible] that one of those students who led that protest is on the board of trustees right now, who has been very successful person in life. And−
3:20:19
BCE: What is his name?
3:20:19
SM: I cannot remember.
3:20:20
BCE: Did he write a book too? [laughs]
3:20:21
SM: No-no book. He is on a board of trustees, very successful.
3:20:24
BCE: Wait a minute, [inaudible]
3:20:25
SM: I do not know what posi- I just remember knowing that that person had gotten into some sort of position of responsibility with the university. I am not sure if I am correct. I am not sure if it was a trustee position, but in some capacity [crosstalk]
3:20:42
BCE: No, you got you got Cornell West, you got. The other guy, what is the other guy? The one went to the White House to have beer with the−
3:20:50
SM: Oh, Gates, Henry Louis Gates.
3:20:54
BCE: And I look at these leaders and whatever they are, and I go "Mhm," I am take it with a grain of salt.
3:21:03
SM: Well Cornell West and Gates and Dyson, they are um−
3:21:10
BCE: Oh, let us continue. Let us go on, I do not want to− [laughs]
3:21:12
SM: See, the last thing in this particular area is just what did the Black Panthers yourself and Bobby and Healy and not necessarily Stokely because we know what he felt. We have talked about it. What did they feel, what were their thoughts on Martin Luther King and Roy Wilkins and, and James Farmer and Whitney Young, because those are the four, big four? Remember the big four? There they are.
3:21:39
BCE: Yeah.
3:21:40
SM: And I have read, and I have read so much about them since, of course Philip Randolph was the was the old timer, who was still there, he had Byard Rustin helping. So, but that particular group, Jesse Jackson was an up and comer. But−
3:21:54
BCE: Yeah.
3:21:56
SM: And Whitney and Whitney Young, but the key thing is the big four were King, Wilkins, Young and Farmer.
3:22:05
BCE: Yeah.
3:22:05
SM: They had been the leadership and and-and I know other people followed in their footsteps. But yeah, but just what did they think of them?
3:22:12
BCE: Well, it is sort of like where you started with Stokely, "Your time is coming on." But we are moving on. So, you keep doing what you are doing, do what you want to do. But we are going to go and we are going to move on. I do not think it was a, well you remember, you have not even brought this up. But the-the antagonism between the Panthers and other organizations, Maulana Karenga. See, that was an outright disrespect that two organizations had for each other.
3:22:53
SM: I do not know too much about−
3:22:54
BCE: Do not worry, do not worry. But it was a question of cultural nationalism, which means from changing your name to the garb, that clothing that you wear and certain African centered activities. Well, the Panthers were not really a cultural organization, they were more intellect, action. So, there was some friction and people got killed, okay. But if you asked about the us organization, they were in Los Angeles. I would say, "Oh them all bald headed no good and motherbaba duba da." But if you asked about Martin Luther King, and big four as you said, well, they have had their day and I am going to do this that and the other. It was not, put put-put-put down. Now occasionally. We did call you Uncle Tom.
3:22:54
SM: Yeah.
3:24:03
BCE: We put you in the newspaper as a bootlicker, okay. No doubt, no doubt. But I always thought of that period of time as the breaking away, you know, the breaking because you were asked by the establishment press and newspapers, "Well, what do you think of the Black Panthers, oh them ruffians, those-" so you are looking at this and you are saying, "Wait a minute, you do not even know who I am." You know, you know things that, so if-if you diss me I am going to diss you back because you were there to soothe the fears of white America and some Black Americans, but you did not represent everybody. So, there you go.
3:25:15
SM: Music, I made a reference to it earlier, was the African American community-community linked to or inspired by the music of the (19)60s and (19)70s? Or mostly the Motown sound? Who were the entertainers, the artists, the musicians that most inspired the Panthers and the African American community as a whole? And secondly, because we are talking about the bay area here, and you know, when he talked about the Bay Area, you are talking about the Summer of Love and (19)67, which was a big thing when people came from all over the country to San Francisco. And that by (19)68, we knew the drugs took over the town, everybody was leaving. And then of course, 1969, Woodstock was a cultural event.
3:25:59
BCE: New York!
3:26:01
SM: So, you got the Summer of Love and (19)67 and the Woodstock and (19)69. How important were the Summer of Love and Woodstock? Do you see an identity in the African American community, particularly the Black Panther community, to those two particular events? Because there is so-
3:26:16
BCE: We sold more newspapers than ever. Woodstock literally was unbelievable. Unbelievable. Okay. But it was mind boggling at the same time, because of the amount of marijuana you [inaudible] oh shit gas masks [laughs]. But it was also, we sold a lot of papers. So, I mean, 1000s, you know, whatever was that.
3:26:47
SM: What was the- what was the publication every week [crosstalk]? 100,000 or?
3:26:52
BCE: Oh, I cannot be sure it depends on the year, the month.
3:26:56
SM: Yeah.
3:26:57
BCE: But the summer of love. Okay, that was interesting, because it was not, it was not just about alliances, because we went there. Because you said "Hey, I need a little support why do not you sell some papers people." But it was like, what the hell is going on here? Because you had all these for lack- basically, these white young kids. Flower−
3:27:41
SM: Yeah, we are at [inaudible] African American kids.
3:27:44
BCE: [Inaudible] Do not make me feel guilty−
3:27:45
SM: The key thing, it is important because when I talk about I want to make sure that when I talk about the boomer generation, someone told me once when they think of the boomer generation, they think of white kids, ah no-no-no-no-no. Boomer generation is 75 million people from all ethnic backgrounds, I want to make sure, what were, was there a connection between the Summer of Love and the African American community besides just selling newspapers? And being a part of it?
3:28:10
BCE: I know that I was there this last summer. No, it was so new. It was so new. You, I think that- so you have to look at how Black people do drugs back then. They smoked marijuana in the house, in the house. If they shot up, they shot up in the house or in certain little spots. But most African Americans back then were drinkers. Social beings, a beer with a little wine, whiskey. Okay. Now Woodstock, the summer of love both of them in the Haight Ashbury itself. Okay, because I was living there. I moved in at night. I woke up the next morning, I said, "where the fuck is [inaudible]". I had no idea that I had moved at Haight and Trager, the jiggers were- yeah, and the jiggers were my neighbors right. I had no idea where I had moved, because it was [inaudible]. It was like a mind-blowing experience. So, if we were strange to our peers and parents as Panthers and radical Black Student Union children, because a lot of them students got in trouble with the parents, right? The summer of love and Woodstock and Haight-Ashbury, it was like, no clue. You were in the state of shock. Now granted, there were a few Black people in the movement there. Love Power, Haight-Ashbury. The whole hippie movement. But the thing about it was, were they in it for the drugs? Were they in it for free love? Were they already married to a person of another racial group? You never saw a lot of Black people, okay in any of those things. But because I was always like this. But after living in the Haight, I was there about a month. And like I said, the jiggers were upstairs, they were the people that−
3:30:11
SM: Hippies. That is Peter Coyote, did you know Peter?
3:30:55
BCE: I do not know, I got to see.
3:30:57
SM: [inaudible]
3:30:58
BCE: But no, but here, what was interesting. I never felt so safe in my life. Walk down the Haight Ashbury. I would walk six, seven blocks down the Fillmore Divisadero, come home late at night walk up the street, because people were always on the streets. But then it was very beautiful in the beginning, but then LSD really turned it around.
3:31:25
SM: Yeah, (19)68 was a different year they called it the summer of- I forget, there is another term they used for it. But it is, it is not a good term.
3:31:31
BCE: No.
3:31:31
SM: People were getting out of there like crazy.
3:31:33
BCE: And−
3:31:35
SM: Yeah, so when you talk about the music overall, then, you know, I guess what I am getting at here is.
3:31:44
BCE: Oh, music.
3:31:46
SM: So, you know, because the culture we are talking about Woodstock, of course, Jimi Hendrix [inaudible] Woodstock. [crosstalk] Carlos Santana, there was [inaudible] there, but what, the music and I look at the music, too. We know music was part of the generation and of the course, white kids loved Motown. And they love rock music. The question is, did African Americans during that timeframe also like the Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Doors, the folk musicians, the rock bands, you know, because, because it is not just, you know, that there is the Chamber's brothers. There is the Isley Brothers, there is the Motown groups. There is Jimi Hendrix. There is Bob Marley. There is Richie Havens.
3:32:31
BCE: No Bob Marley. Too early.
3:32:33
SM: Yeah, you are right on that. But there were, of course, all the Motown groups and the jazz, but just-just thinking about this.
3:32:43
BCE: What−
3:32:44
SM: Did the community like all this music?
3:32:47
BCE: Well, we all liked Janis Joplin. I was not that hip to what is his face, Jimi? Because I went to the Haight theater to see Janis. I cannot remember whether I saw Jimi Hendrix there, or what it was but Janis because she was so earthy, little crazy, I guess, but earthy. And she came across sort of like Tina Marie in later years. But it depends on your cultural, spiritual, educational upbringing, what you liked, but everybody liked Motown because they were safe. And then you got the Philly sound. But then they started recording music to meet the needs of the struggle. You know, Marvin K, what is going on? These boys here in Philly, Gamble and Huff produced a lot of good music. The one I really liked was that wild man, James Brown.
3:34:07
SM: Oh, yeah.
3:34:08
BCE: I am black and I am Brown.
3:34:09
SM: Yes.
3:34:11
BCE: So, you had, between (19)65 and (19)68, everything. It was like trying to keep up with it. Trying to keep up with it. I think.
3:34:28
SM: What is amazing is when I think about it, the music, no matter what ethnic background you were from, there seemed to be something for everyone with a message−
3:34:39
BCE: But it was.
3:34:40
SM: You know, the-the white the white bands had messages. You know, Country Joe and the Fish talked about Vietnam. It is amazing.
3:34:49
BCE: No what was that, Bob Dylan.
3:34:55
SM: Yes.
3:34:56
BCE: Bob Dylan, strange creature that he is. I do not remember the song. And Joan Baez. See, we could play some of their songs, not just Black music.
3:35:11
SM: Peter Paul and Mary.
3:35:12
BCE: You could play the songs because there was that cross connection of, hey, do you know the truth about this? And see, it was a form of intelligence giving, I think now, and that is some stuff I picked up in rap. I mean, I had to listen to rap because my son and his friends rolled around.
3:35:37
SM: And you can get messages in rap.
3:35:39
BCE: And I was like, and then some of the stories were too true, horrifying stories, but no, it was a lot of things cross cultural back then.
3:35:53
SM: Even the (19)70s in John Lennon's music as a- before he was murdered in 1980. Everybody was listening, Give Peace a Chance. I mean, Bruce Springsteen's music, well, he has got a lot of messages in his music. I, it is like everything you listen to. Pete Seeger crosses three different generations
3:36:11
BCE: Yeah.
3:36:11
SM: With his music and Arlo Guthrie and Judy Collins and Joni Mitchell. They are all I mean, there is all messages I-I have listened to everything even I could not believe this the other day the Beach Boys have an album that I did not even realize the Beach Boys. Yeah, it is called Demonstration. I said I got to go find this. And because I never knew there is a song if you go into the web, hit the Beach Boys go all through their material and then come to this one song talks about Kent State, Jackson State, the Beach Boys! Because is there you know, everybody seemed to be making sure that there was messages that were.
3:36:49
BCE: You know, it is funny you should mention the Beach Boys because−
3:36:56
SM: This is going to this one is going to run out, this is ok.
3:36:59
BCE: There was something on TV about a month or so ago, one of them had−
3:37:03
SM: Will we tape this or just?
3:37:05
BCE: No, this is just conversation.
3:37:06
SM: I think we have gone over the fact that you are a little bit more about your life after the Panthers. They broke up in the (19)80s overall. Two questions right here.
3:37:08
BCE: Go ahead, go ahead.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Barbara Cox Easley
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Easley, Barbara Cox ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Civil rights workers; Black Panther Party; Easley, Barbara Cox--Interviews
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Barbara Cox Easley is a civil rights activist most known for her involvement with the Black Panther Party while attending San Francisco State University. She worked in the Oakland, C.A., Philadelphia, P.A., New York, N.Y., and international chapters for the Party. She also participated in several survival programs hosted by the Party. Easley continues her dedication to social work and political activism today.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2012-01-26
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.186a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.186b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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217:23
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Broome County Oral History Project
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Broome County -- History
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Binghamton University Libraries
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The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
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2
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
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1977-1978
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Gallo, Barbara
Interviewer
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O'Neil, Dan
Date of Interview
1978-01-24
Collection
Broome County Oral History Project
Date of Digitization
2016-03-27
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34:15 Minutes
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55925">Interview with Barbara Gallo</a>
Subject LCSH
Gallo, Barbara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade; St. Mary of the Assumption; Harvey Hinman; John Mangan; Chancellor of the New York State Board of Regents; Press Building; Broome County Courthouse
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<p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Barbara Gallo</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 24 January 1978</span></p>
<br />
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: OK, Barbara, will you relate to me the life and working experiences of your father and uncle from the time of their immigration to the retirement in the community?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: My uncle Nick Gallo came over here in 1889 at the age of 19 years and he landed in New York and stayed there for a few months and then went to Scranton, PA, where he went into the, ah, stone cutting business with Mr. Frank Carlucci, who did a lot of work like that, and ah, one of the buildings that they, ah, were contracted to build was the new, the Courthouse, which now stands, ah, since the old one was burned own and Uncle Nick was the foreman on the job and, ah, I'm not certain whether he did much of the cutting there, but ah, later on, ah, then, ah, my dad, who was also had the trade as a stonecutter, ah, worked on the Press Building. On the doorway, and also, ah, did the work on the lions’ heads that are way up almost to the top of the building there, and his pay at that in those days was around $7 a day, which was quite high, and Uncle Nick, ah, after, gave up the work of stonecutting and married, ah, my Aunt Gussie Arrigoni, who owned a small store in the Moon Block, which was across from the Arlington Hotel. Then in 1914 he started this bank which was chartered by the State of New York—it was more of a savings bank than a commercial bank, which we now know. Ah, it was primarily for Italian immigrants—they had, ah, great trust in my uncle and would ask him to hold their money for them, and so with this he formed this bank, and then I guess he had the bank for about 12 or 14 years, and in 1926 he retired to Italy and gave up most of his assets that he had here, with the idea of staying, remaining in Italy. Then he did return to, ah, the United States, into Binghamton—he was involved politically with, ah, Harvey Hinman and John Mangan, Chancellor of the State of New York at the time, and he did much in the way of getting people to, the Italian citizens here to get out and vote so they would exercise their American citizenship, and he was, ah, a member of the Elks Club at the time and also ah Knighted by the King of Italy in, after, ah, World War I for his, whatever help that he contributed at the time towards—what would you say?—a better world, anyway, and then, ah, in 1930 or something he retired again.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Did he do anything when he came back after—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: No, he remarried. He was retired—it was only, you know, politically, ah, involved.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Politically involved—in other words, in 1930 he just, ah, severed all relations entirely.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: With the business.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: OK.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: But he did have, also, at the time that he had the bank, he did have a wholesale grocery and, ah, this steamship agency, which, when he did retire, turned the steamship agency over to my dad, Michael. Ah, Michael came here in the later 1800s, around 1896 or so, and he worked, as I say, on the Press building there, but then—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: When did—he came directly from Italy to Binghamton?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: No, he went to Scranton also.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh, he went to Scranton and worked for the same contractor your uncle did?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Umhm.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Then the reason he came to Binghamton was the Press building job?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Right, right, but because of the—he had to give that up because of, ah, physical, ah, ailments that he acquired through, I guess, ah, the dust from the stone there, I suppose.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Right.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barhara: He then gave that up and, ah, returned to Italy for a matter of just probably a couple of years or so, and he came back here in 19, ah, 1915, I believe it was. He married my mother, Rose Arrigoni, and they together had this wholesale grocery, and after a few years he was able to, ah, put aside some money and built the building there on Fayette Street, and they moved their grocery store over to that building there and that’s where it remained for about 40-some years, and together with that he had this steamship agency and the money exchange, which was a great help to the Italian community at that time. Mother, although she was American born, was very fluent in the Italian language and, ah, was often used as an interpreter for a lot of these Italian people—especially like going to the doctor or for legal purposes. Many times she would go to the, ah, where they would get their citizenship and, ah, help them in that way and explaining things to them, and she was quite active in church too. Which, going back to my Uncle Nick, was instrumental in getting the Italian, ah, Church of St. Mary’s of the Assumption here, ’cause there was a need for it at the time, see, and this community was increasing and therefore they, ah, worked with some other Italian people and was able to get the church started here.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Now you mentioned, ah, Barbara, that your Uncle Nick married your Aunt Gussie—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Arrigoni—there were two sisters married to two brothers.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: That’s what I was going to ask you—two sisters married two brothers, and was Gussie a native of the United States, or was she born—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: She was, she was the only, ah, the only child that was born over there—all the rest of the Arrigonis.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh, she was born over there.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Yes, but she came here like two years old or—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh, I see. They got married here, though?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Yes, yes, they were married here.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: And Rose was your, ah, was your mother—ah, she had her own store, her own business, is that right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: No, no, my Aunt Gussie.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh, Gussie, Gussie had it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Gussie had a candy store—they made candies and things. That’s where I guess they used to see each other.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: But she gave that up when—ah, did she retain that when your uncle had the bank?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: No, no.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: She gave that up?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Then they had a child.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: I see.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: She was, you might say, more or less retired in that business there.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: I see. So your dad, primarily, outside of the job he did on the Press building, did most of his—most of his time in the wholesale, in the retail—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Eventually went into the retail business because he used to go around as a wholesaler, he used to supply, ah, some of the restaurants and even places out of town with Italian food.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Uh huh.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Like macaroni, which were all imported, and he did have his own brand on the merchandise—tomatoes, macaroni, and oil—called Gallo brand, which represented the—the label was a rooster, which meant Gallo.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: I see.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And he used to have that for quite a few years.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: And your dad retired at what age, Barbara? Or what year, do you know?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: He retired about the age of 82.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: About 82.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: About 82, because he was sick for about 8 years. He was 90 when he died.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: And how old was your uncle when he died, remember?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: My uncle was 83 and he died around 1954 in Italy—he retired, he was there when he died.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh, he went back to Italy then. Oh, then he died over there.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Ah, in, after WWII, 1942 or 1943, when the war ended, his daughter, who had resided there in Naples, Italy, came back here and, ’cause they were on in years and, ah, ah, she was wanted her parents to be with her, and it was so logical for them to go there, so they gave up their home here and retired there, and the only—my aunt died the same year, I think.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh, is that right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Over there, and my uncle died the following year.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh so your Aunt Gussie is, ah, and your uncle are buried over in Italy. OK, now you say your dad worked on the, your uncle worked on the Courthouse as a foreman, and of course I guess they, prior to that they had a fire at the Courthouse.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I believe it was sort of a wooden structure in the early times.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Something like that—I saw a picture of it in the </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susquehanna</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> this past week or so, and ah, I suppose it had to be restored.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Like the columns and all are, see, are all stone, and they needed to be shaped. Things, I don't believe, in those days, were brought in already made.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: No—true, true.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: ’Cause, ah, like I say, my dad always talked about the work on the Courthouse. ’Course he did other work, you know, in other places. This was one of his pride and joy, I guess, and ah, like grapes around the archway, and then up above are the lions’ heads, which are rather large and he had to do it up there from a solid piece of granite.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And, ah, it was all done on scaffolding, which they had to put up.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: So it’s all by hand.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: All by hand and chisel.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Gee.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: It was their trade from Italy and their reason for coming here was just, ah—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: How long did it take him to complete that archway on the Press building?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: It took him about four months to complete that archway on the Press building.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: You don't know how long, as far as the lions’ heads—it probably took longer to do that.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Oh, it was longer than that, because like you say, they, ah, just, they were, if you could see them, their fangs or whatever they had are real long, like the length of an arm.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah, yeah, uh huh. Did he work on any other Kilmer property at all?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I don't recall—-ah, this was just, you know, what they would tell us from time to time.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Uh huh. And your dad took over the steamship agency and the money exchange from your uncle after he retired, and the bank was just closed.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: The bank had to be dissolved.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah, yeah, OK. Now the, in the building of St. Mary’s Church of the Assumption—ah, that, of course, was a National church, and your uncle was instrumental in getting that started.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: In getting that started.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: As a fundraiser, or—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: As a fundraiser and in other ways, you know.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: This is going back before your time, Barbara—you don't know who built the church, do you?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: You mean, you mean, ah, the architect?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: No, I don't off hand.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah, Father Pelligrini was the first Pastor.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barhara: The first Pastor, and remained so until 1951, I believe. He was the one and only man and the Italian community used to, ah, hear Mass with him as Pastor down in the basement of St. Mary’s on Court Street until our church was finished—completed—but there was, way back, we used to have what they call the August 15th celebration, which for St. Mary’s, which was a fundraising thing. It was known throughout the Southern Tier.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: You mean the Bazaar?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Well, it wasn’t really so much a bazaar as it is now.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: It was the Feast of the Assumption.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: It was a feast, but it was called a Field Day.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And it was done out and they used to have people from all over come, and fireworks and things, but it was primarily a fundraising to help complete the cost of the building.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Is there any occupation in particular that the, ah, Italians indulged in more than anything else? Did they have a particular trade that they brought over with them? I mean, in other words—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: You mean the Italians.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: The Italian community, in other words.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Most of them were contracting.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Contractors.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Must have been the majority of them were contractors—that was what they knew best.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah, it seemed to be that barbering was quite a popular trade too in Italy, because a lot of the barbers that I know and acquainted with have all been Italians.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: There were probably a lot of cities like, you know, they learned that trade, of course there’s a lot of roadways in Italy and they were good at it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah, yeah.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: As a matter of fact, like, ah, Dad’s uncle and his dad were, ah, worked on the Amulfi Drive in Italy, which is famous now.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Where is that? Is that in Salerno?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: It runs along the, along the coast of Italy. Sorrento all the way down, I don't know exactly where it starts—it’s below Naples somewheres it starts.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: I see.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And it’s all along the mountainside.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: I see, and you say it's famous, you say, for what particular reason?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Because of the way it’s built.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh, I see.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: It’s sheer mountainside and there isn't much room for cars to go through, especially the present day cars. If there are two cars coming, one will have to back down.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: In other words, it was built for a horse and buggy.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Probably, but it overlooks the ocean—you can see that.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Now you spoke of an uncle—ah, how many brothers were there in the family?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Now I'm not certain of it, I thought there, ah, I thought they said there was ten brothers.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Ten—large family—and were they all stonecutters?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Now are you referring to my dad's family itself, or just uncles? They started, but the uncles, his uncles.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh, it started with his uncle, I see.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And his father.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: How many, how many worked on the roadway of the family, including not just brothers but also relatives of your uncle?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: That I don't know.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: That goes back quite a way.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: But you say there was ten in your uncle’s family or your dad’s family.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: My dad's father had quite a few brothers.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Oh, I see, I see.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: But my dad's family, there was three brothers and five sisters, and they all came, all but one, one brother, immigrated to the United States.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Is that right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And one to South America.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Were they all stone masons, stonecutters? Did they all take up that same trade?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: That was a trade there.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah, yeah. OK, well is there anything else that you can add, Barbara, looking over your notes, you might have overlooked?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: This is all, like I say, just what we can remember from their talking about it at times.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Now the bank was located where, ah?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Ah, at 168 Henry Street.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: 168 Henry, and ah, your dad's grocery store was on Fayette Street, right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: At two different locations. The final one was where he remained for forty-some years.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: In other words, the one that is standing now at 9 Fayette Street.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I think for the, ah, they did quite well, considering, you know, ah, you might say the handicap at first, you know—the language—but my Uncle Nick, ah, spoke English well. They were both educated, I mean, they had as far as high school in Italy.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: When your uncle was Knighted, that gave him a title?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Gave him a title of Cavalier, which at that time was quite something to have.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah, did you tell me what year that was he was Knighted, Barbara? I don't know whether I have that down here or not.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: It was after World War, World War One. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: WWI.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara : Umhm.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: So it was after 1918, 1919, yeah.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: They had quite a banquet there for him—some of the civic leaders there, which was nice, but Uncle Nick was a great help to the, ah, as I say, the Italian community.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Well that’s good, I mean when the immigrants came over, you know, and especially, you know, don't know the language, why it’s nice to have somebody they can fall back on.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Dad, during the Depression, was a great help to people, because they were in need and many, many times he, ah, would let them, you know, run up bills because they just didn't have the funds.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Sure.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And people were very good—they trusted him and then they appreciated it, and ah, I have even people now that come, sometimes I meet them and they'll, you know, have a great fondness for my dad. Like I say, he helped them when they needed help, which is a sort of joy for me to hear that, you know, he is still remembered in that way.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Right, right.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I think that was when he was 90, but I don’t know what else.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: OK, Barbara, well I certainly appreciate your taking your time out to be interviewed. Would you like me to run it back for you?</span></p>
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Interview with Barbara Gallo
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Gallo, Barbara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade; St. Mary of the Assumption; Harvey Hinman; John Mangan; Chancellor of the New York State Board of Regents; Press Building; Broome County Courthouse
Description
An account of the resource
Barbara Gallo discusses her father's and uncle's emigration from Italy, their moves from New York City to Scranton, PA and their work as stonecutters on the Press Building and the Broome County Courthouse. Her uncle established a private bank primarily for other Italian immigrants and a steamship agency to aid immigrating Italians. She details her uncle's return to Italy and his later re-immigration to Binghamton, NY where he became politically involved with Harvey Hinman and John Mangan, Chancellor of the New York State [Board of Regents]. He worked with Italian immigrants assisting them with voting, and was instrumental in establishing St. Mary's of the Assumption. He later retired and returned to Italy. Gallo's father established a wholesale grocery store and later took over the steamship agency.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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audio/mp3
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English
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Sound
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Recording 27
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Gallo, Barbara ; O'Neil, Dan
Date
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1978-01-24
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2016-03-27
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Broome County Oral History Project
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34:15 Minutes
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/18f584fd4c9b11739b6519a2b8d49161.mp3
6c5cbfa59356777c6a744ce8e5bd9b5e
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2019-04-02
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied
Year of Graduation
1966
Biographical Text
Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied, American Librarian. Certified reading specialist, New Jersey, New York; She worked as adult services supervisor for the Edison Public Library and as public relations officer for the I.L. Peretz Community Jewish School in New Brunswick before that. She is a member of the New Jersey Library Association. She enjoys reading, gardening and furniture refinishing in her spare time.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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Interview with Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied
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Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae
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Espenschied, Barbara Kriegsman ; Gashurov, Irene
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Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied, American Librarian. Certified reading specialist, New Jersey, New York; She worked as adult services supervisor for the Edison Public Library and as public relations officer for the I.L. Peretz Community Jewish School in New Brunswick before that. She is a member of the New Jersey Library Association. She enjoys reading, gardening and furniture refinishing in her spare time.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2019-04-02
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eng
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Barbara Espenschied_1.mp3
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2019-04-02
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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48:36 minutes
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/56ce5f2c788fdf9d73e62f12ae496f20.mp3
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/891a8806e0849d4530d520736ae203e1.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Broome County Oral History Project
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Broome County -- History
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Binghamton University Libraries
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The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
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2
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In copyright
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
Coverage
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1977-1978
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Oldwine, Barbara
Interviewer
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O'Neil, Dan
Date of Interview
1978-03-01
Collection
Broome County Oral History Project
Date of Digitization
2016-03-27
Duration
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37:47 Minutes ; 15:05 Minutes
Streaming Audio
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55985">Interview with Barbara Oldwine</a>
Subject LCSH
Urban League; Planned Parenthood; Oldwine, Barbara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Fisk University; African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Social workers -- Interviews; Race discrimination; American Association of University Women; Young Women's Christian Association
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<p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Barbara Oldwine</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 1 March 1978</span></p>
<br />
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Barbara, would you tell me something about your life and working experiences in the community starting from the time of birth—OK?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I was born in the City of Binghamton at Binghamton General Hospital and the first place that I could call home was 20 Front Street, which was on the corner of Front and Riverside Drive. It would be interesting to know that the old Memorial—the Memorial Bridge that we now know in 1978 was not up then, so in order to get to the west side, you crossed Court Street Bridge. I stayed there as a girl until I moved to 24, pardon me, 41 Broad Avenue, which is in the 12th Ward. My education began at Alexander Hamilton School—kindergarten—it was Miss Manning as the principal. In Junior High I went to West Junior. I there had a half a term at Central and graduated from North High in February, 1941—we had midterm graduations at that time. I left Binghamton then and went to Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee where I earned my Bachelor’s Degree, magna cum laude. My degree was History and English and like many women at that time, I was married to a serviceman who was at many places never dreaming that we would live back in Binghamton. When it was his decision to go to school under the G.l. Bill, we moved back to Binghamton in the house of my parents at 41 Broad Avenue—stayed there until we bought the home on Gaylord Street. Following his education, my husband became associated with IBM. He was the third Black man ever hired by that corporation. My career began with the Department of Social Services ah then known as the Welfare Department. Lounsberry was the Mayor and Mr. Robinson was the Commissioner and our office then was at 71 Collier Street which is now a big City parking ramp in 1978. I worked continuously for the Social Services Department for some 32 years and it was merged with the County under the direction of Mr. Libous and Mr. Crawford. When we talk about what I faced in the community as a member of the group of Black Americans and what minority problems we might have had, it might be interesting to know that one of he first things to happen while I was a Field Worker in the Department of Social Services—an applicant recipient called the agency and decided that they did not wish to be interviewed—to participate in a cash grant—if the interviewer was going to be a Black American. Mr. Robinson informed them that the interviewer was fine, based on ability and they were needed in the program that they must be interviewed, and that ended that confrontation or that problem, handled directly by the Administration. The most difficult time Neil and I faced was a returning couple to the community needing a place to live, having made a decision to first live with parents while he was getting the Degree and Percy Rex was Rector of my church—Trinity Memorial Episcopal—corner of Oak and Main at that time and he appealed to landlords who had been people who owned property that were members of our church, to give an apartment to this young couple—returning G.I. and veteran and his wife and we wouldn’t be strangers because I had been baptized in Trinity Memorial Episcopal Church in infancy and gone to that entire church, to the church school—my husband and I had married there and it had been our first child—it had then been ah born ah baptized there but no one came forward to give us a house and that was rather scarring and very hurting. Our decision then that we would move into the Veterans’ temporary housing, which was on the McArthur Tract and these people will recall was just the old quonset hut—McArthur School is now standing there—but they were operated by the City of Binghamton and although discrimination had first been observed in Veterans' Housing ah the first group of veterans who tried to move into the housing over on the Webster Court area and I think if you would recalled one—the veterans had to pitch a tent on the Courthouse lawn—that man was John Scanks and he too had served in WWII but he had broken the barrier so when Neil and I moved into temporary housing for veterans on McArthur ah Tract, we did not face any problem at that point. Our then goal was to face sufficient money to use the G.I. Bill and get a loan and purchase a home since renting was not possible. Well it wasn’t an easy task to purchase the home—the small down payment that we had at Binghamton Savings—I'm sure the loan people or the people of the accounts there wondered what Cornelius and Barbara Oldwine were doing because we kept drawing $500 out on one day and putting it back on the next. What was happening was we were taking the money in good faith when we had gone with the real estate broker to look at property to try to purchase a modest home and the owner would decide then that even though they were not going to reside in the home themselves, they were going to sell and move away, that their neighbors would not want to have a young Black American couple there and of course at that time we did not have the laws against discrimination on the books of the State of New York and this was exercised several times against Neil and I and I think I have to give credit to a man by the name of Mr. Balin, who was a real estate dealer in the locality who came upon a home which we now still occupy, that was in an Estate and we were able to purchase this modest home at 24 Gaylord Street without any difficulty and we were given the ah G.I. Loan though the Binghamton Savings Bank—Mr. ah Cornelius is the President and we faced no discrimination in getting the loan at that time. An interesting thing happened to us as we became residents of Gaylord Street, 12th Ward Bingahmton—had two small girls then—one 6 and one 4—oldest girl was Eileen, our youngest daughter was Valerie and I went to business and I had a wonderful woman, Mrs. Stringham, as my housekeeper who came each day to assist me with the children and part of her plan was to take our 4 year old at 10 o'clock in the morning—walk and entertain her and let her have fresh air and one of my neighbors across the street had a 4 year old, whose grandmother was the loving, caring person but when Mrs. Stringham would bring Valerie out to play, this other grandmother would take this other 4 year old back in and I thought badly about that because what do 4 year olds know? They probably would have just played dolls and pushed carriages and Mrs. Stringham, who was my trusted housekeeper, ah was really concerned about that because she was a white American who was helping me to care for my children and the neighbors who always took their children in, were also white Americans—but you know that soon passed ’cause the children started playing and it didn't matter how the adults felt. They transcended that misunderstanding. We've lived on Gaylord Street now approximately 20 years and I couldn’t have better neighbors or more caring people. We are doing things together now that all neighbors do—help with the snow, get cars unshoveled—particularly conscious of that in this weather, take collections when somebody dies, cook a cake when a baby is born and rejoice and those things that were so terrible for that neighborhood in 1952, when Black Americans first came, really passed. They found out that Cornelius and Barbara Oldwine were going to work, make a living, mow grass, raise children, have sadness and happiness, and we've really become a strong unit on Gaylord Street and with people loving and caring about each other.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Fine ah now you mentioned that when you first got married you moved in with your ah parents?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Right.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: And ah did they own their own home?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Yes they did.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Did they have any trouble acquiring that?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Unfortunately the story about my father and mother acquiring the house on Broad Avenue ah is rather gruesome. My father and mother ah came to Binghamton in 1920 and it’s an interesting story because ah they were living in Manhattan and had to catch the Ferry and had to go to Hoboken and get on the old D.L. & W. so indeed they were immigrants. They were coming from Brunswick County, Virginia, and had worked in Manhattan but after that, placed in the mail by Mrs. Dunn—Mabel Dunn ah guess it was Mabel Dunn Eggleston, because she had been married to Dr. Eggleston who was a psychiatrist that had passed. The plan was that my parents, Mary E. and William A. Harris, would be the caretaker and housekeeper for her at 20 Front Street, because she was going to go abroad and she made an interesting plan. She would pay the way from Manhattan to Binghamton—they would work the year—they were satisfied they could stay—if they were dissatisfied, she would give them the fare back to New York and they could seek other employment. Well, needless to say, my parents came in 1920 and my dear father passed in 1973 and my mother is still alive and they made Binghamton their home. Now when he took a job with Mrs. Welden, part of your wages was to have ah quarters as caretaker but my father was an ambitious man and knew this was a satisfactory plan but you needed to have your roots and roots were acquired by property. He had come from a farm family that owned ground in Brunswick County, Bracey, Virginia, and he was able to save and he sought to purchase the house on 41 Broad Avenue approximately in the year 1931 and everybody will remember Mr. Bauman as a great real estate dealer ah Sec—located in Security Mutual and his wife—his son is now the surgeon Dr. Bauman here locally and ah he found no harm in taking my father's hard earned money that had been saved and purchased 41 Broad Avenue—but it came to the attention of my father that the neighbors in that community wrote a letter to then Mr. Benjamin F. Welden, who was the President of Sisson Brothers, Welden Company. Mrs. Eggleston had been married to Mr. Welden and they had suggested that Mr. Welden would make certain that my father would cease and desist in purchasing the property on 41 Broad Avenue. Well, of course, Mr. Welden had no such plan as my father’s earnings and conserving his savings and ah Mr. Bauman had made the arrangement as a real estate dealer so my parents then did purchase the home. Now we did have some unpleasant circumstances in that neighborhood in that ah people again didn't wish to speak, and I don't know why that was, but when WWII came by—many young men left and went to the Service. My Father was called in the draft but not assigned and people found out what a wonderful man he was because when young sons and young husbands were away, he could help women that were left alone and ah this became very very important for his role in the neighborhood as a caring, loving person. My Mother was rather in a quiet, reserved woman and her whole life was her family and her home and she had it beautiful and that’s what women cared about and they found out that she was just like they were. She did all the things—she baked cookies and she got her daughter ready for Girl Scouts and she sang on the church choir and she went to the ah church association that women went to—the Altar Guild—and ah she my mother always was an employed woman as a team with my father—just so special and so and people had to learn to understand and love people being Black and they had not understood yet—maybe it was their fault.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Umum—have you found things changed now?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: You know, it is rather insidious the way there is still a great deal of misunderstanding for people and people are sort of scrambling for their own rights and not really understanding that you can't have human rights for yourself if you can't have human rights for everybody. I want to talk about having my ah children come to the Public School system of the City of Binghamton. I consider that they got an excellent education because they were both equipped and prepared to go on to the University. Ah my daughters ah both became ah part of the band at North High and Eileen was a Standard Bearer for the banner that said North High Standard Bearer and my daughter Valerie played in the band and came home one day—“I'm not going to do that anymore, I'm going to do that anymore, I’m going to carry the American flag, I'm 5’9”, I’M the tallest girl”—and that gave us great pleasure to see young Black American women walking in front of the band. That only began with the generation that was represented by my daughter. You heard me talking about Mr. Scanks—his daughter Constance really opened that up at North High for young Black women to be a part of that and then ah other young women that came by ah—Kennedy family had a wonderful young daughter that was in that and Mrs. McGill had a young daughter Carmine and these young women—generation with my daughter, just broke that down that at North High. At Central, it was a little different ah Allan Cave was our President or Principal at McArthur School—his sister June was one of the first gym Black women to be ever selected to be Queen of all the students like at the Senior High level ah and that’s a breakthrough. Now sororities, good or bad—young people have them - I don't recommend them because it excludes people but you know young people make that decision and my daughter Eileen pledged for a sorority and didn’t make it and that rather broke her heart because the sorority hadn't taken young Black women in but then they came along with Valerie and Valerie became Miss New York State Teenager and every sorority wanted Valerie. So what she did, she said, “I will pledge if you pledge my sister,” and then that broke that down and then all sororities started pledging and all fraternities started pledging. That passed with children in that generation which was about the year ah let’s see our children should have been pledged in sororities ah—late ’60s and ah it’s hard to understand why young people and older people can't relate—can’t really understand what our goals are which is to be human beings, seek jobs, live a fair honest life of quality, but there is ah some insidious, insidious discrimination in this community that can 't be controlled by Law. Give you an example—my husband going to work at IBM. Now here's a man who's been in the Army 5 years and he's been away at college and he's home with one baby and he wants to start his life again—he is ah 28 years old—not a boy. In the first year he worked at International Business Machines, other than his manager and setup man, men did not say, "Good morning," or ask about the ball scores or, “how is your wife and the baby?” Now that is pretty tough for a man to go do any assignment because you’re awake there more than you are at anyplace else and the way we face this as a team because Neil’s goal at IBM was a cross to bear. Everybody wishes to be liked but his was to do a good job, receive and advance in promotion to provide for his wife and child and that took some doing because Neil, probably if he went now with the opportunities that are at the International Business Machines and their fair employment practice, he would be a manager. He was born too soon for that but it afforded a good living, and later on they began to find out what a magnificent man Cornelius Oldwine was—how well he did his job and how he was always prompt and quiet and prepared and frank—willing to help another man—a caring person and now it’s really different.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Is he still working there?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Yes—he hasn't retired yet. We started to work very early ah and ah Neil’s 58 but he feels that he will continue to work perhaps until he is 60 or 62 and he, God has been good to us—we are in fine health and he is at the lab in IBM and he loves his job. Similar to my job—now I have been with Social Services ah see if I went in ’46 and this is '78, I have to have 32 years.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: 32 years.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And you know with the Government, after 55 years of age, you can retire but I love my job.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan : And how old are you Barbara?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: 55.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: 55.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And I feel well respected. Mr. SanFillipo is our current Commissioner, Mr. Dimitri was our immediate past Commissioner and I feel very well respected by the people that I work for and people who work with me and that’s and that’s a privilege.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: What’s your, what’s your title with the Social Sec—Social—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Social Services Department—I'm a Supervisor.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Supervisor.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: But in Medicaid only.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Just for Medicaid?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Only.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: That’s right, I see.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Big assignment—right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Sorry—you’re working.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Yes.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Ah, now when you first went to work there 32 years ago ah how did the ah—Do you know how Social Services began and how it has changed up to the present date, for instance what services were available?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Well in 1932, under Mr. Robinson as the Commissioner, as I said, Mr. Lounsberry our Mayor, we had all categories which is known as Old Age, Aid to the Blind, Aid to the Disabled and Aid to Dependent Children and of course now you know man—a great deal of that has been transferred and is now in the Social Security system and of course the City of Binghamton was by itself at that time—the Town of Union was alone and Broome County was alone and we had three distinct offices—three distinct commissioners all serving the areas of the County as they did divide employees and then under the direction of Mr. ah Libous, our Mayor, and Mr. Crawford, it was found more at interest of the taxpayers and the serving of the County that we should merge and come under one head and that has been for approximately the past 6 years was one Commissioner and I think they are doing that a lot in Government now, trying to get one head so’s you don’t have it divided because it’s much more economical.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: So in other words the funding is under the Broome County.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: It’s now called the Department—the Broome County Department of Social Services rather prior to that it was City of Binghamton, Town of Union and a small section—it was just the town was under Broome County.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Now are you under Federal Regulations?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Oh yes ah Medicaid is a Federally sponsored program and ah we are reimbursed ah 80% and then 20% from the County and State and some titles are 60-40, 40 you know 60-40 which amounts 20 County 20 State. You know that, you're probably working for the Action for Older Persons—you know there’s quite a bit in the ah funding.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Now have you noticed any change in the attitudes of recipients in the benefits?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Well I seldom see the applicant now because what has happened is I have been promoted and I'm in administration so I work, I work more with the Social workers than the Examiners but ah the right to receive Public assistance ah the mind of some people is changing all that and I think that came about from the 1937 Social Security Act and the Social Security has moved forward and we've gotten SSI and the people have been included but interesting though ah people still wish to have their right to maintain their own lives and the integrity of being an American citizen or citizen of the United States first—you can decide for yourself and I think respect is still commanded and I wish we were doing more for the older people ah there just doesn't seem to be time and that’s why at Social Services we're so grateful for organizations as Action for Older People and Services for the Aging because we may have the fund but sometimes we don’t have enough people to give the services.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: I see ah now could you—I don' t know whether this is outside of your realm or not but do you know how the relocation of the people of Susquehanna Street was accomplished due to Urban Renewal?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Disaster—absolute disaster.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Absolute disaster—in what respect?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: In the fact that they didn't care about people and l they made promises, promises, promises which you know have never been kept.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Well where have they gone?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Well fortunately some families were able to buy small modest homes but the promise that they were going to rebuild that area which held many people has never materialized, you know, Woodburn Court, what is it going to have? A few houses now for Senior Citizens and they're not going to take that.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Going to have a big parking lot.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Well I guess they need that. I feel—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: —someplace to put the snow.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I just feel that that’s devastating and urban renewal has done that throughout this country to minority persons and poor people and I they have warehoused them and ah we haven't been responsive as citizens to people who—the house might not have met the standards for somebody who was doing urban planning but it had roots and growth and love and care and the curtains may have needed to have been mended but it was starched. It was beautiful and you could sit around and have your coffee or your tea or your cakes and where we sat people—I think we are moving over to the mausoleums—don't start me on that—I feel terrible about it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: OK, I won't pursue that any further ah now I think you will agree with me Barbara, that ah we're living in a promiscuous society today with ah young couples living together without regard for marriage.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Well I think that’s the at—you know my feelings are.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dam: No.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I—“promiscuous” is your adjective.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Right.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Not one I would use because that says that I'm placing a value judgment on someone else’s decision.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Umum.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And one of the things that has been a tenet in my life—that I may have a standard set for Barbara Oldwine and I may wish to keep that high—then it becomes a standard that Cornelius and I set together—a family standard and I wish to transfer that and the beauty of that in the growth of my Church and the love of my community to my daughters but I have never felt that I could place a value judgment on someone else's decision so I, I totally using that adjective.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: You don't like that.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: No I can't use—well it's all right for you, I, I would defend with my life your right to use it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Uh huh—well the only, the only reason I asked is that in such an arrangement of two people living together and one—say the girl becomes pregnant and the boy figures that “I've had enough,” and he moves out—has this had a bearing on the welfare rolls?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I think a lot of people want to think that but I don’t think that’s ah been ah documented and we just want to look at that like that and are not really willing to look at why we have increased the people that have support and assistance in our society and the reason we have increased is that we are in such a high society of technology that people would, could come to America and not speak English but could become a farmer or do the hardest labor on the railroad or become construction people and not need all this refinement—they could go ahead and build from the bootstrap. All that has disappeared and it’s I think it’s the technology of this country that it constantly, you goad the simple jobs that people could get that didn’t have a lot of training and this is why we are in a great bit of difficulty of people not being able to find work and the other thing I think that I’m not sure that people still care about people, that we are really serving, want to help. We're a society that’s always proved ourselves, that always have to have someone as an underdog on the bottom—stepping on them. We proved that when we went to Vietnam, we proved that when we had the Civil War, so I really don’t want to talk about a person's decision to share their life with another person and create a life, which is an act of God, and then decide that they can’t face that responsibility means that the welfare rolls have increased, because I don't know that, because there are women who have been left alone where this decision has been made, have gone on and done great things and provided for that young life that they created and that they decided to keep. So we don't have the statistics.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: You don't have the statistics?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: No and we mustn't draw that out as that’s the reason. I feel the welfare rolls have increased because technology of this country has moved simple jobs out of the contact for people, you know we are not educating people to get the technological jobs—there are more people than there are jobs.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Umum.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And every time you, say, put it on a printout—use it on a computer, maybe you eliminate an individual who maybe could have done a simple job.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Umum.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And we're starting to warehouse people and that’s very frightening and I don't think we should base it on what the moral decision is. The fact that as human beings, we can't cast the first stone against someone else's decisions because if we had done that ah God would never have been close to Mary Magdalene.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Umum.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: And He loved this woman and reminded us, be without sin ourselves before we cast the first stone. But when He went to the well for the water, the woman said to Him, “Why do you ask me to fill the pitcher to serve you?” because she was different in Gentile and Jew and He didn't care. He was going to drink from the pitcher that would be sweet because it had been blessed out.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Umum—now what clubs have you belonged to Barbara?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: OK—I feel very privileged to say that I am a Life Member of American Association of University Women and I have served as a Secretary for that organization and then I'm proud to say I’m a member of Semper Fidelis, which was founded by Mrs. Beccye Fawcett—this is part of the National Negro Conference of Women who are original founders with Mary McCloud McLew—a beautiful woman who established Bethune-Cookman College on nothing—what an inspiration—and then ah I'm a member and ah immediate Past President of Broome County Urban League Guild, a member of the Monday Afternoon Club—that was an exciting thing. The Monday Afternoon Club was 100 years old. These beautiful women decided that all women should have a right to belong to that organization and ah you know at Monday Club, you have to be sponsored by a woman and then two women cosponsored you and Mrs. Fawcett and I were both selected and I have loved my association with these women—there is so much beauty there and of course you know our home has been listed as ah one of the outstanding architectural homes in this country—in the State—it was owned by Mr. Phelps first and there is a lot of loving, caring there for women and we do a lot of great things there.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: It was owned by Mr. Phelps?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Yes.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Is it the banker?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I'm not quite sure.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: E.Z. Phelps?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I think so—that’s in the history, all right and then ah lets see.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: You belong to—do you still belong to Episcopal—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Trinity Memorial Episcopal Church—oh I was baptized there and now it’s really wonderful. Neil and I were married there. Our daughter Valerie was married there and we baptized her first baby there.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yeah—how many children do you have?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I have just Eileen, my oldest daughter, who is associated with the ah State Department in Washington as a Foreign Service officer.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Wonderful.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Really exciting job and of course we have our daughter Valerie Oldwine Barnes who is married to John C. Barnes with their little daughter Amera and of course you know the new baby is coming any day.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Yes (laughter).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: We were rather delayed with this and John and Valerie are both associated with IBM as her father is.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Well that’s fine.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: I must tell you about Valerie—she’s 29 and she’s a manager of Finance in the Lab and I’ll tell you a little about the girls’ education, if I may.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Surely.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Eileen went to Fisk University.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Your Alma Mater.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: My Alma Mater so that’s always very important for Mother and then she went on to go to the University of Michigan to do her Masters in Public Health Administration. Valerie chose to go to Howard University, then she went on to do her Masters at the Wharton School of Finance at University of Pennsylvania. I’d like to point out here that my daughter selected the predominantly Black University for the undergraduate program. Having been raised in Binghamton, they had not had a great deal of opportunity to associate with the peer group because our population here you know is very small—approximately now about 3000, which is a small number in the total community and both girls needed that kind of identity and we feel very fortunate that they were able to obtain that in ’59 then when they were ready to go further into their development professionally. They then sought the University that would offer the ah choice Degree for which they settled and ah we're really excited when we say Valerie finished Wharton because it is—she was one of the first 10 Black women to receive her India World honor.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: I see—OK she went on for further studies at Wharton.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Yes the MBA Wharton School of Finance, University of Pennsylvania and it has been a great deal to her career and ah it’s interesting to know all industry is accepting women and men and giving them promotions based on ability and that’s what this is all about.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: So ah in Beccye Fawcett’s mind, anyone who has the education and the opportunity, can go out and get a job—no matter what the color of his skin is today—right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Well I guess there you know—nothing can be overall and a lot of young Black people will feel that they may get in the door and that’s a very important step, getting in the door. Now we have to worry about where they're going once they're in the door—are they going to move up? We have to acknowledge that in bib business and in finance, we don't have too many Bank Presidents yet who are Black and we don't have too many high level managers ah who are Black and this is still the goal that young Black people are trying for—ah Patricia Harris, who is in the Cabinet with ah Mr. ah Carter—she’s an exception. Vernon Jordan directs the Urban League—outstanding man now—I can’t think of the young woman that was just appointed as the Executive Director for National Planned Parenthood—but she's 34, she’s from Dayton, Ohio and she’s going to earn $7,000 a year. She was a nurse first and then got her M.Ph in Ohio. Now our young Black people are having to really strive to get promotions and move into the top level of management. We’re faced with the Backey case for admission to the ah medical schools, which is being heard by the Supreme Court, because if they're talking about reverse discrimination, Civil Rights have to look at that. I believe in preparing but they're, they're still a fuzzy area. Ah I'm not satisfied that it’s a—besides it not all to a degree for anybody anymore—one is this technology that is requiring more and more training. Why don’t, why don’t white or black interests think of the number of teachers that are just not admitted to the school districts because we don’t have the money—we're cutting down, we're consolidating Junior children.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: We have declining enrollment at the moment.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Right.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Right—well Barbara, is there anything else that you would like to add?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Well I would like to stress that I ah feel that education and preparedness should play a great part in the lives of people but there has to be a certain amount of human understanding and we have to transcend that and have people recognize people for the working people and it’s going to be very difficult in this society for what I call the dominant part of the society which is the white American male to understand that perhaps he is going to be threatened by the Black American and by women. He has always been the Chairman of the Board—that he is going to have to move over to make room.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: So you're an advocacy of women’s rights.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Oh definitely.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: OK, I’m not going to dispute that either. (laughter).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Thank you Dan—well what do you think?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Fine—do you want me to turn it off and I’ll turn—play it back for you?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Oh to hear a little bit of it, I don't need to hear it all.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">[PAUSE ON TAPE]</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Can you tell me any special honors you have received as a citizen of the community, Barbara?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: Well I think the most beautiful honor I have received was at the time of the Bicentennial and I was selected by the commission to be Woman of the Year for the City of Binghamton and that meant a great deal to me because it was based on my contribution to the community as a loving, caring person and I think it was afforded to me because of my work with ah the United Way—I've been on the Board of Directors there and ah I've been on the Board of Directors for Planned Parenthood and at the present time, I'm a national Board member for the YWCA of America—have 91 women on that governing Board and reach that plateau because the women of your own community nominate you for the work you have done and my work with the “Y” here. I was the President of the Board of Directors so none of these things would have been possible for me if the people of the community hadn’t respected me and knew that we cared about each other.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dan: Thank you Barbara.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Barbara: OK.</span></p>
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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Title
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Interview with Barbara Oldwine
Subject
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Oldwine, Barbara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Fisk University; African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Social workers -- Interviews; Race discrimination; American Association of University Women; Young Women's Christian Association
Description
An account of the resource
Barbara Oldwine talks about her life in Binghamton, NY beginning with her childhood, her education at Fisk University, and her position with the Department of Social Services. She discusses her working experiences, the merger of welfare facilities, and her husband's experience at IBM. She discusses her views on racial discrimination in education and work fields, as well as the discrimination her family was subjected to. She discusses her community activity, such as the Urban League, American Association of University Women, Planned Parenthood and the YWCA.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Rights
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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audio/mp3
Language
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English
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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Recording 45A ; Recording 45B
Contributor
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Oldwine, Barbara ; O'Neil, Dan
Date
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1978-03-01
Date Modified
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2016-03-27
Is Part Of
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Broome County Oral History Project
Extent
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37:47 Minutes ; 15:05 Minutes