56 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5112e9b6211742e8470d4ab3d66bed61.mp3 48d484734d2fc790298073eeef97224a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e6952d772bf48e6bc719239f4c6a2ae8.jpg 6dfb4cb3bb3c63d8ba910d55898efafa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Barry Polsky Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Barry graduated with a degree in Psychology from Harpur. His career spanned different professions. He worked as researcher for a pharmaceutical firm; as a software engineer after earning a graduate degree in computer science. He drove a cab and before retirement worked as a high school math teacher. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Barry Polsky Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 3 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) BP: 00:03 Travel will be difficult. IG: 00:04 Travel will be difficult tomorrow. It is the snow is starting at four o'clock in the morning. BP: 00:10 Right. Four or five. IG: 00:11 Four or five. We will figure it out. So, for the record, please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are. BP: 00:35 My name is Barry Polsky. I was born on November 25, 1946 and we are in Somerville, Massachusetts. IG: 00:48 Where did you grow up? BP: 00:50 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. IG: 00:53 And tell us a little bit about your upbringing and what was the occupation of your parents? BP: 01:04 Yeah, so my parents were both immigrants from the Soviet Union. They both came here in the 1920s separately, I was amazed when I found out, when I was young that they met here and they were both from the Soviet Union. And my- neither of them had much education. My father eventually became the manager of what we used to call an appetizing store, which is a little grocery store that sells smoked fish like lox and herring and kippered salmon. And he had these big jars of candy and big blocks of halva and cheese. It was a wonderful store. It was on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, and he managed the store for 25 years, and when he was 60, he bought the store from the owner, and he owned it for six years, until he passed away. My mother was a housewife when we were out of the house. I think my mother got some jobs here and there, but basically, she was a housewife and raised us, and we were, I would say, lower middle class. IG: 02:22 Where did you go to high school? BP: 02:23 Midwood High School in Flatbush. IG: 02:26 I know where that is. Did your parents encourage your pursuing a college degree? BP: 02:36 It was mandatory. IG: 02:38 Mandatory. BP: 02:39 Yes. It was just assumed. Unlike my two older sisters, who could have done whatever they wanted, my parents did not push them in any direction. I was assumed. It was assumed I would go to college, and in fact, later on, when I left graduate school, my father said, I will be disappointed if you do not get a PhD. IG: 03:01 So, is this what you did? BP: 03:03 Yes, I went to University of Rochester for graduate school in brain research, psychology and brain research. IG: 03:11 Oh, my goodness. BP: 03:12 And I got a master's degree. And then at some point, I decided that graduate school was taking too much out of my personal life to continue, and so I just left after a master's degree. And actually, you may not, you probably do not know this, I came back to Binghamton, and I was a laboratory teaching assistant in psychology for a year and a half at Binghamton. IG: 03:41 So, what was your occupation, throughout the years? BP: 03:46 I have had many careers, several careers. So, after I was the teaching assistant at Binghamton for a year and a half, I went back to New York City, and I was briefly a programmer, computer programmer for AT&T. IG: 03:49 Tell us about it. What years were the- BP: 04:05 1970 I believe. And then in (19)71 I got a job as a research assistant at Hoffmann-La Roche [F. Hoffmann-La Roche Ltd], the big pharmaceutical company. And I worked there as a research assistant for eight years, laboratory research. Then I went to Israel for 10 weeks, and when I got back to New York, yeah, when I got back to New York, I realized I just did not like New York City anymore, and I knew some people in Boston, and I just up and went to Boston. I decided I want to live in Boston, and I have never regretted it. I love it here. And I kind of bounced around. Did not quite know what I wanted to do. I was a bus boy. I was the- I did various things. And then I settled into being a full time Boston cab driver for about five years. And when I was approaching 40, I decided that I needed a real career, and I read a book called 90 jobs for the (19)90s, and it said that computer programmers would be in great demand. So, I went back to computer programming. I went to Harvard Extension School and got a computer science degree, and then I worked as a computer programmer for about 15 years. IG: 05:36 Can I ask what area I mean, did your programming in-in-in the (19)70s, in the early (19)70s, [crosstalk] inform your, did you do- BP: 05:47 I did cobalt programming in the (19)70, business programming, cobalt program, right in graduate school, in the program at Harvard Extension, I learned C, not C plus-plus just C. IG: 06:01 Just C. BP: 06:03 And I got a job with a firm in Rhode Island doing kind of customer service and a little programming. So, what was their niche? IG: 06:10 I see. BP: 06:10 I did that for about a year and a half, and then I was offered a job up here in Cambridge with a company called Computer Sports Systems. And they were very interesting company. They had an interesting niche. They invented automatic scoring for bowling alleys. If you go bowling- IG: 06:34 Yeah. BP: 06:34 You do not have to score by hand. IG: 06:36 Oh! BP: 06:37 There is a machine that detects the number of pins you knock down, and it projects your score overhead, and that is on all with software. And this company invented that software that did the automatic. IG: 06:50 So, what was your role in [crosstalk] helped design. BP: 06:53 I helped design and maintain those programs. IG: 06:56 Oh! That is very interesting. Who were some of your clients? BP: 07:03 Oh, well, we worked with Brunswick, which was the main, one of the main manufacturers of bowling equipment. I think I heard of- Yeah, and actually bowling alleys, big bowling alleys, would be our clients. And after a while, there was not a lot of business anymore for that. So, they tried a big project to get the company going again. The project petered out. And when that project failed, they laid off just every programmer, except one, and I was laid off. And- IG: 07:40 And what year was this? BP: 07:41 19- Let us see, I think 2003,2003 or (20)04, and I did not have another an appetite to pound the pavement looking for another job where I looked at a computer screen all day. IG: 08:01 Right. BP: 08:02 And so, I wanted more interaction. So, after doing a couple of stops and starts, I decided to become a teacher. And eventually I landed a job as a high school math teacher at Everett High School, which is a suburb of Boston. IG: 08:19 Did you go through a special program? BP: 08:21 I tried to get into a couple of training programs, and I could not get in. But in one of the interviewers said, you know, you have an interesting resume, just send your resume out to people; do not go to a training program. So, I- the Boston Globe had an ad for Everett High School wanting math teachers. I sent in my resume, and two weeks before the years begin, they dropped me in for an interview, and they hired me the next day. IG: 08:47 Oh, wonderful. BP: 08:48 So, I sort of started right off the street, and I worked there for 10 years. IG: 08:55 Did you enjoy the experience? I did. I thought was very rewarding. It was stressful, and it was the hardest job that I have ever had, especially the first year, because I was checking homework one day, and I, you know, somebody was not getting it. And I said, "Well, did you read the book?" And he said, "I cannot learn from the book." So, I decided the book was not good enough, and I wrote my own book of notes for all the lessons that year that I distributed to the students. So that I was working, you asked my wife I was working day and night, but I got it done, and later on, it became less and less work as I had my lessons planned. Lesson plans- what grades did you teach? BP: 09:40 Pre-calculus, juniors and seniors. IG: 09:45 And what kind of neighborhood is Everett? BP: 09:47 Very diverse. IG: 09:49 Very diverse. BP: 09:50 Working class. IG: 09:51 Working class. BP: 09:51 Yeah. Um, basically working class and diverse in terms of their Haitians and Brazilians, and Central Americans and African Americans, and, you know, probably maybe 50 to 60 percent white, and then the rest very diverse. And it was very rewarding, but toward the end of my 10 years, it became more and more stressful, and I think the main reason was cell phones in the classroom. IG: 10:24 Was what? BP: 10:24 Cell phone. IG: 10:25 Oh, yes. BP: 10:27 You just could not get the students away from their cell phones. And I would have a rule. IG: 10:33 Right. BP: 10:33 But it would be very hard to enforce it, because if they start, if they finished their work, I would- they would- cell phones would come out. I would say, no cell phones. They would say, I finished my work. IG: 10:43 Right. BP: 10:43 It was very hard to control. IG: 10:45 Yeah. BP: 10:46 So, I was- when I retired after 10 years, I had a small pension. IG: 10:50 When-when- so when did you retire? BP: 10:51 Okay. Yeah. So, I was hired in 2006 and I worked until, I guess, June of 2016. IG: 11:01 So that is very recent. BP: 11:03 Yeah, I am retired about a year and a half, almost two years. IG: 11:06 So how are you enjoying retirement? BP: 11:10 I love it. IG: 11:11 You love it. BP: 11:12 I love it. Mainly. One of the main reasons I love it is that I found the perfect retirement job. IG: 11:19 Which- what is- and what is that? BP: 11:22 I am a big baseball fan and I am a Big Red Sox fan. IG: 11:26 Yeah. BP: 11:27 I have become a tour guide at Fenway Park. IG: 11:30 Oh, wow. BP: 11:32 Fenway Park gives tours to thousands of people a year. IG: 11:36 How wonderful. BP: 11:37 And I am one of the tour guides there. IG: 11:42 That is wonderful. That is wonderful that you found it. BP: 11:45 And then to make some extra money, I drive Uber. IG: 11:48 Oh, good for you. BP: 11:50 So, I am enjoying retirement. IG: 11:52 Yeah. BP: 11:52 Not quite as much money as I was making when I finished teaching. IG: 11:56 Yeah, you have a beautiful home. You live in a lovely area. BP: 12:00 Well, I lucked out in many ways. When I married Randy, she had a first husband, and she was able to buy this home in the 1980s when it was affordable. IG: 12:11 Right. BP: 12:11 So. IG: 12:12 Where did you meet your wife? BP: 12:15 We were acquaintances for a number of years in a Jewish congregation of the persuasion, called Jewish renewal. It is kind of like an alternative. IG: 12:25 Where is it based? BP: 12:27 When we met, it was based in Watertown, but we meet in rented spaces. Currently, we are based in Waltham. IG: 12:35 I know. BP: 12:38 And we were acquaintances for quite a while. IG: 12:40 Yeah. BP: 12:40 And in 2004 Randy and another friend, Mary were going to New Hampshire to canvas for John Kerry- IG: 12:49 Yeah. BP: 12:50 -and they asked me to come along if I wanted to come along. And I did. And at one point, Mary took a walk, and Randy and I were left in a diner talking, and we hit it off and started dating. And- IG: 13:02 That is wonderful. So, it is a relatively recent marriage. BP: 13:07 That is right, we were married. Actually, we were together for eight years before we got married. Oh, so we were only got married a little over three years ago- IG: 13:17 Only three. BP: 13:18 -and it was my first marriage at the age of 67. IG: 13:21 It is what? BP: 13:21 My first marriage at the age of 67. IG: 13:26 Bless your heart. BP: 13:27 Thank you. IG: 13:27 It is wonderful. BP: 13:28 Thank you. I am very happy. IG: 13:32 Wonderful. That is, that is really it. It warms my heart. So let us return a little less backtrack and return to your college days. BP: 13:47 Yes. IG: 13:47 So, I mean, do you still keep in touch with your classmates from Binghamton? BP: 13:54 There is one small group of classmates that I have always kept in touch with. IG: 13:58 Right. BP: 14:02 We were in the same dorm. We were in Whitney together. IG: 14:06 Right. BP: 14:07 And there were like three or four couples that we keep in touch- IG: 14:20 Yeah. BP: 14:20 Since then, it is not a wide range of students- IG: 14:25 Not a wide range [crosstalk] BP: 14:26 But- IG: 14:26 Do you ever get together? BP: 14:28 Um, maybe on big reunions, like I get together with them on big reunions. I think I saw them on the 50th and the 40th reunion. The union now passed its 50th. IG: 14:41 Yeah, I remember you at the reunion. BP: 14:44 Yeah. IG: 14:45 On campus. BP: 14:46 Yeah. But they get, generally get together on New Year's Eve in Pennsylvania, at somebody's house. But I usually do not make that. But we said, you know, holiday- [crosstalk] IG: 15:00 -together with the Strauss's? BP: 15:01 Yes. IG: 15:02 We interview them. BP: 15:04 Yes-yes, wonderful people. IG: 15:06 Because I- they mentioned a New Year's tradition in Pennsylvania. BP: 15:12 Right. IG: 15:12 That is, that is why I thought, Okay, so tell me about the campus when you first arrived. What was it like? BP: 15:24 Well, I love say, I always tell people when I got there, it was Harpur College. IG: 15:31 Yeah. BP: 15:32 And it had 1600 students. When I left, it was State University of New York at Binghamton, and it had 6000 students. There was mud and construction everywhere all during those four years. Tt was really an explosion. IG: 15:49 So, it really went through not even an evolution, but a revolution- BP: 15:54 Yes. IG: 15:54 -for four years that you were there? BP: 15:56 Right. IG: 15:57 What did you study at Binghamton? BP: 16:00 I went in thinking I wanted to be a math major. IG: 16:03 Right. BP: 16:04 But I took calculus, AP calculus in high school, so I did not take- have to take math the first freshman year. And during the freshman and sophomore year, I kind of had an intellectual awakening, and I decided that people were the most interesting things to study. So, I majored in psychology. Now I expected to study Freud and abnormal psychology and things like that, but the program at Binghamton was primarily experimental psychology, so I studied rats. IG: 16:11 Right. But that really- BP: 16:39 It was okay. IG: 16:41 Awakened your interest in the in the dis, in the subject. BP: 16:45 That is right. IG: 16:46 Who were some of the- do you remember some of the names of the faculty- BP: 16:52 Oh, that [crosstalk] IG: 16:54 -awakened this interest in you? BP: 16:55 Yeah. Well, my friend- my first psychology teacher, was Andrew Strouthes. Um, but I had been awakened even before I started taking psychology. IG: 17:10 By whom? By what? BP: 17:12 Well, I know that during the summer before my sophomore year, I read William James' psychology. I would get a book on psychology, and this one was called Psychology, so I decided to read it. And I was reading some philosophy. I took philosophy in my sophomore year, and loved it, and I decided I wanted to be a therapist. So, this kind of psychology that I was studying as a sophomore was not really what I was expecting. IG: 17:46 Yeah. BP: 17:46 But I still liked it. Then at some point around my junior year, when I- during my-my sophomore year, things got difficult emotionally for me. I struggled with depression some, and I- at one point decided that I had too many of my own problems that I could not figure out to help somebody else with their problems. So, I went from wanting to be a therapist to wanting to do brain research [crosstalk] IG: 18:23 That is pretty self-aware, I would say, for a young person. BP: 18:32 Mm-Hmm. IG: 18:32 So, did you feel supported by the community at Binghamton during the harder times? Or did you have friends that you could reach out to? BP: 18:45 Um, I was not good at reaching out. IG: 18:48 No. BP: 18:49 I was not good at getting support. I think I pretty much carried things on my own. Yeah. IG: 18:59 So, do you see yourself during those years as a loner, or were you, you know, in a group of friends? And... BP: 19:11 I would say I had friends; I had a small group of friends. IG: 19:17 And- BP: 19:18 And I was- there was something that was not quite a fraternity. It was more like a social club. It was called STO. IG: 19:26 what was that? Tell us about that? BP: 19:32 I think there were fraternities, and this was like a fraternity light. IG: 19:37 Yeah. BP: 19:39 And it was a little easier to get into a little less prestigious, a little less, you know, rules, and I liked hanging out with those folks. IG: 19:52 So, what would you do? Would you just, you know, hang out. BP: 19:57 Wow. Uh, I do not really remember too much else about that. Just go meetings, yeah, just meetings and talk. IG: 20:08 You had meetings and talks. BP: 20:09 Right. With uh, my- this girl, close group of friends that I had- IG: 20:13 Yeah. BP: 20:15 I remember going out to Sharkies and having speedies. IG: 20:19 In town? BP: 20:20 In town. IG: 20:20 In town. And did you have a car? Did you- did somebody have a car? BP: 20:26 Somebody must have had a car. IG: 20:27 Somebody must have had a car. BP: 20:28 Yeah, I did not have a car in college. IG: 20:30 Yeah. BP: 20:30 So, somebody must have had a car. IG: 20:34 You know so-so what were what was recreational? What was recreation for you, outside of Sharkies and the fraternity, or were you studying all the time? BP: 20:48 I was studying a lot. IG: 20:49 You were studying a lot. BP: 20:54 One thing that comes to mind when you say what was recreation is the first time that I was introduced to smoking grass. [laughs] Now you have to know that Binghamton was kind of like a- IG: 21:09 Party school? No? BP: 21:11 No, it was a druggie school [crosstalk] as its reputation was as a druggie school. IG: 21:17 That is interesting. BP: 21:18 And a lot of us had our first exposure to grass and acid at Binghamton. IG: 21:25 Was that kind of inspired by Timothy Leary? BP: 21:30 Yes-yes. IG: 21:30 And that was connected to your interest in psychology, right? BP: 21:35 Probably, I mean, it was more of interest in just having- wanting more experiences, wanting different experiences. I did have- I was not an acid head. I had one trip that was pretty intense, and one time when I took like a half a dose that did not do very much. IG: 21:59 Excuse me. BP: 22:00 I took like, a half a dose of acid. IG: 22:02 Yeah. BP: 22:03 And it did not do very much. IG: 22:04 Yeah. BP: 22:05 So, I would say I had one experience. IG: 22:09 And what was the experience like, if you do not mind sharing. BP: 22:12 Not at all. It was pretty-pretty interesting. It was, it was, it was good. At one point, I just felt like, this is great. I just felt so good. And colors were very-very vibrant. And I remember- IG: 22:30 Were you sitting, standing, walking? Do- Where were you walking? BP: 22:32 Both I would, I would mostly walking. I remember- I remember going into a room. IG: 22:40 In resi- in their residence? BP: 22:41 In the dorm, right. With a rug kind of looking like this. IG: 22:45 Yeah. BP: 22:46 And the pattern of the rug looked like it would rai- it raised up and started swirling around. [laughs] It was a psychedelic experience. But some of my insecurities were exacerbated, also. I remember walking during the trip, walking with a friend, and saying to him, you know, I am afraid. I am really boring you. So that was [crosstalk] IG: 23:13 Yeah, that is interesting. I never heard that. So, in the aftermath, what do you think of this experience? I mean- BP: 23:25 I am glad I had- IG: 23:26 Yeah. BP: 23:27 I am glad I had it. I do not think it did any damage. IG: 23:29 No. BP: 23:29 I did not do it enough to really do any damage. And I smoked several times, listened to music, but I never really developed a desire to make it a lifestyle or do it a lot, and now, as an adult, the few times that I have smoked with friends over the years, I do not like the way it makes me feel at all, so I do not do it. I am trying to remember whether we used to go to basketball games. We might have gone to basketball games. IG: 24:02 So-so, you would get, you know, I mean, you would get together with your friends. Do you remember some of the conversations? Would you talk about politics, the war? You know, the war must have been present on everyone's mind. BP: 24:17 The war was a big thing. The war was a big thing. I remember either as a sophomore, as a junior, reading a book about the history of the War of Vietnam, and just deciding right then and there that it was unjust. It was a really terrible war. And I remember a group of us drove down to Washington, DC for one of the marches. And we were, we were very against the war, and there was a bond there. We-we... IG: 24:51 Do remember- what year the protest in Washington? Do you remember? BP: 24:55 I am guessing 1966. I am guessing. IG: 25:00 And you know, was it many students, or just your friends, or who went from Binghamton? Do you remember? BP: 25:09 Well, we were in a car, so [crosstalk] IG: 25:12 It must not [inaudible] so large. BP: 25:14 -very much, but there were other people that definitely went down. IG: 25:18 Right-right. BP: 25:19 I do not remember whether any busses of students went down, I am not sure. But I mean, I can feel the emotion of that and even now, how against the war we were and how much we wanted to fight it. IG: 25:34 How was it like being in Washington with this sea of young people, I imagine. BP: 25:39 Yeah, it was great. It was really energizing, and it felt like we had to express our opposition. But it was frustrating also, because we did not really know whether this was going to make have an impact, although, in retrospect, it certainly had an impact in Johnson not running for a second term. IG: 26:02 Right. BP: 26:03 So, we had sudden effect there. IG: 26:05 Do you feel that you were politicized during your undergraduate career? Do you think you are a political or was it just that one instance? BP: 26:22 That is a good question. I certainly am very interested in politics. I mean, I met- I got together with Randy going up to New Hampshire to Canvas for John Kerry. So, when it- when I am and I am very energized about the 2018- IG: 26:42 By the way, went to a fundraiser for John Kerry. BP: 26:45 Oh, right. IG: 26:48 Yeah. BP: 26:49 I am very energized about the 2018 midterms and the 2020 election. I want to do everything I can. But I would not say that most of my life, I have been that political, you know, I have had my views and I have contributed money at various times, but I cannot say that I have participated in a lot of organizing. IG: 27:13 So do you think that Binghamton was kind of a foundational experience for you, or it was just something that you went through to get a degree. BP: 27:25 I certainly think it had an influence. I mean it, it put me in the direction of brain research and experimental psychology, and got me headed off and in that in that direction for the first 10 years of my life. IG: 27:51 Even though it was not really the psychology, you know, direction that you- BP: 27:59 envision of beginning. IG: 28:00 Yea., BP: 28:00 That is right. IG: 28:03 So, you know, there were women at Binghamton. [laughter] You know, did you date anybody? BP: 28:19 Well, this is, yeah, this is, this is very important part of my history. IG: 28:27 Yeah. BP: 28:28 So, I remember walking along near Whitney in my freshman year, thinking, you know, I am really, really happy, as long as I do not think about girls like I must have had some fear, some insecurity, that-that was troubling me. But, I mean, I was basically a pretty happy person. There was something called "Winter Weekend." IG: 29:08 Yeah, what was that? BP: 29:09 It was something that I think the fraternities and the social clubs ran. It was the middle of the winter term, and it involved parties and stuff, and it was organized over- around the weekend, and people had dates for it. So, I decided I wanted to go to that. And I had been hanging around a few of people, and I asked one of the girls I was hanging out with to go. Her name was Mary Jean and so we went. had a pretty good time. I did not much, have much a dating life in high school, so I during that week. I made out for the first time. But at the end of the weekend, we were on the way back to the dorm, and I decided that was it. I did not really want to see her anymore. IG: 29:09 You did not what. BP: 29:12 Did not really want to see her anymore after that weekend. So, we get up to the door of the dorm, and before I say anything, she says, "Would like to have lunch tomorrow?" And I ended up saying, "Well, okay." And I ended up saying, "Well, okay," for the next six months-- always feeling like I did not really want to be in this relationship, but not knowing how to break it up. IG: 30:41 Right. BP: 30:43 And that lasted until, I guess it was trimester. So summer was in the end of June- was that that semester, that trimester, and then summer was July, August, September, October. So, I finally did say- she was from Buffalo, and I was from New York, so I finally did say at the end, "I do not think I want to see you when we get back." IG: 31:07 That what BP: 31:08 That when we get back, I do not think I want to continue dating, yeah, and she accepted it, but then over the summer, much to my surprise, to start to miss her, and when we got back, we sort of hung out for a little bit, and then we started going out again. But this time it was very different. I came, kind of became dependent on her. IG: 31:33 Yeah. BP: 31:34 And it did not really work well. And during this time, I find myself getting depressed. And so, this whole-- I think when I look back on it, one of the reasons I became depressed is that during that time, when I was with her, in the first semester, I was not really being myself, I was not being true to myself, and I kind of got out of sorts that way. IG: 31:59 How? I mean, how did you it is a hard question, but I mean, how did you being yourself, meaning-meaning that you were not telling her what you felt BP: 32:11 Right and sort of like being who I thought you wanted me to be. IG: 32:16 Yeah. BP: 32:16 Instead of being who I was, IG: 32:17 I see, I see. BP: 32:19 And I did not really date anybody else that seriously for the rest of the college. IG: 32:24 Did you part as friends? Or did you never speak to her again, or when you finally parted company? BP: 32:32 You mean in the sophomore year? It was somewhat acrimonious. I think, you know, I, I think we were civil to each other after that, but never close. And as far as you know, I dated here and there the rest of the time, but never really- IG: 32:35 Yeah. Yeah. BP: 32:59 -hooked up with anyone. IG: 33:01 Do you think that she was very career oriented, or was she, your former- that first girlfriend? Was she looking for a husband? BP: 33:13 [inaudible] yeah. I think she was looking for a husband. IG: 33:19 Do you think that these were the expectations of young women at the time, even those who had gotten into Harpur College, or were they looking toward- well, I mean, you cannot say, you cannot generalize- BP: 33:36 Yeah, I cannot generalize exactly. IG: 33:39 But she was looking- BP: 33:39 I think she was looking for a husband. IG: 33:41 Yeah. BP: 33:42 And I think that it was a time when expectations were changing for women. IG: 33:46 Were changing. BP: 33:47 You know- IG: 33:49 Well, you mentioned that, you know, there was an expectation from your parents. That you would go on- BP: 33:54 Right. IG: 33:54 -with your studies, but your sisters could do anything that they liked. BP: 33:54 Right. IG: 33:54 So that -that-that is my answer, really. BP: 33:54 Right. That is right. IG: 33:56 At Harpur College, which is, which, I mean, had an excellent reputation, or, I mean, it had a reputation of being a very rigorous school. I do not want to put words into your mouth. [laughs] BP: 34:18 No, it was yes, it was. IG: 34:21 It was. BP: 34:21 I mean, once my- one sister did not go to college. IG: 34:25 Right. BP: 34:26 And one sister went to college for one year and then met someone and got married. IG: 34:31 Right. BP: 34:32 But, you know, the women that were at Harpur College already- IG: 34:36 Right. BP: 34:37 I think we are a little more career origin. IG: 34:39 A little more career origin, but not much. BP: 34:42 Yeah, I think not. That is right, they still were kind of transitioning from looking for a husband to thinking, "Oh, maybe I can have my own career." IG: 34:56 So how do you think- how did the transition manifest for women that you noticed during that time? Were they becoming- what more career oriented? Were they more, you know, did they, I mean, did kids have sexual relations at the time? BP: 35:23 I would not know. [laughs] IG: 35:24 You would not know. You would not know. You would not know. So, your-your-your buddies and you were not talking about that? BP: 35:30 Oh well, yeah, I had one-one friend of mine definitely talked about his kind of conquests. And I think I had a roommate who had a girlfriend, and they were sleeping together. Oh, you know, it reminds me of the Rule of, you know, a book in the door-door had to be open the width of a book, yes, and one foot on the floor. IG: 36:03 Yes-yes-yes. I have heard. BP: 36:06 And- IG: 36:06 So, did you witness that at all? BP: 36:10 Well, we talked about those- Yeah. -those rules. But I-I mean, I never attempted to sleep with someone while I was in college. I see so I would not know. I never tried to bend those rules, but I do, I am sure that there were other my friends that did. IG: 36:31 I see. So-so how did your girlfriend from that time, and does she have a name? BP: 36:40 Mary Jean. IG: 36:41 Mary Jean. How did your girlfriend and you spend time together? BP: 36:48 Well, we would have almost every meal together. IG: 36:50 Yeah. BP: 36:52 And we would study together. IG: 36:53 Right. BP: 36:54 And, you know, we would make out. IG: 36:57 Yeah. BP: 36:58 Uh, and maybe occasionally see a movie if somebody had a car, or maybe if there was a movie shown on campus. IG: 37:12 Did you mention Mary Jean to your parents? I mean, did you- BP: 37:16 Oh yes. IG: 37:17 Yes. BP: 37:19 Mary Jane was not Jewish, and I did mention that I was going out with her, and again, my father was not happy. IG: 37:36 Yeah. BP: 37:36 Yeah, that was uh- IG: 37:39 That might have had an influence. BP: 37:42 Could have had an influence, yeah. IG: 37:44 When you went home to- for the summers, what did you do? How would you spend your time? BP: 37:48 I would get a job. IG: 37:50 Yeah. Where would you work? BP: 37:51 I mean, it was an advantage that it was a trimester with July, August, September and October, because I- you generally lied and said I was permanent. So let us see. In (19)64 I got a job at the New York World's Fair. IG: 38:10 Oh, I remember that. BP: 38:11 Yeah, and I had the most boring job in the world. IG: 38:15 What did you do? BP: 38:16 I was a Pinkerton Guard, and I was stationed between two escalators, and my job was to push a button if anything happened in emergency. So, the most interesting part of my day was when every once in a while, somebody asked me directions to go somewhere, but it was very pretty boring job. IG: 38:37 What other, what other jobs did you have? BP: 38:40 The next year, I worked in a purse factory. I was like stock boy, and I worked there for several months, and then when I told my boss that I was leaving, he said, "Oh, I am really sorry. I was about to promote you." So, they wanted me to stay, but they did not realize that I was a college boy. IG: 39:04 I did not ask you an important question, why did you choose Binghamton to study? BP: 39:12 Basically, it was my third choice. It was my [crosstalk] IG: 39:15 What were your first two choices? BP: 39:16 Cornell and University of Rochester. So, Cornell, I did not get into and Rochester, I was on the waiting list. IG: 39:23 So, were these known as math schools? BP: 39:28 No- IG: 39:29 [crosstalk] programs? BP: 39:29 They just were- IG: 39:31 Well, I mean, Cornell is for everything. BP: 39:33 Right-right, and, but I did know in my senior year in high school that I wanted to leave New York. I did not want to go to Brooklyn College. I did not want to stay at home, and so I figured out a way to pay for everything myself. So, I walked into the kitchen in my home to my parents and said, "These are the three schools I am applying to, Binghamton, Rochester, Cornell." I did not give them a choice of Brooklyn College. IG: 39:50 That is fantastic. BP: 40:00 I just knew I could pay for it. I got a regent scholarship that paid for tuition totally, which was all of $400 a trimester. IG: 40:00 Yeah, times were different. BP: 40:01 Right. Right. I got a federal loan that basically paid for my room and board at school, and I did summer work to pick up, make my expenses, so I really was not dependent on [crosstalk] IG: 40:25 That is very enterprise. But what did they say anyway? I mean, What-what? I mean, you kind of put your foot down, and this is my- BP: 40:36 They did not have much of a choice. They-they said, "Are you sure?" IG: 40:42 What can they say? BP: 40:48 But I was very glad I went to Binghamton. IG: 40:53 So-so had you had your parents heard of Binghamton before you announced that you were, you know, this was your third choice. BP: 41:07 I do not think they knew much about Binghamton Harpur College at the time. IG: 41:13 Yeah, Harpur College. BP: 41:14 Right. I do not think they knew much about it. But by the way, you know what? I tell people that I went to Harpur College- They would say, "Harvard?" IG: 41:22 Yeah. Yeah. BP: 41:22 I would say, "No-no, Harpur College, it is in Binghamton." And they would say, "Way down in Alabama?" IG: 41:35 Yeah, I know I when I told my daughter I was accepting a job at Binghamton. She thought, "Birmingham?" BP: 41:43 Yeah, yeah. IG: 41:45 But Harpur College had a reputation, and before I mean, do you know that it was you know, what were its strengths? What-what-what did you know about it before you- why did you apply to Harpur College rather than to SUNY Buffalo, for example? BP: 42:06 I think it had the reputation of being the best state school. I think that was the reputation, and I did well in high school. IG: 42:15 Yeah. BP: 42:16 And I was fairly sure I could get in, but I thought that I was worth the best state school. IG: 42:25 Yeah. BP: 42:26 You know. IG: 42:28 Did you visit before- did you visit Harpur College before your acceptance or, I mean, did you first arrive to campus on the first day of school? BP: 42:41 I do not remember visiting. IG: 42:42 You do not remember visiting. BP: 42:43 I think, I think I just [crosstalk] IG: 42:44 You just went into it cold. BP: 42:46 Yeah, I think I did. IG: 42:48 And how did it strike you? I mean, you were a city boy. How did the country strike you? What did it look like? BP: 42:58 Well, my, one of my memories of the first day of being there, my parents brought me up there, and I remember my parents leaving the dormitory, and I think I looked out the window and saw them, and they saw me as they were leaving. My father went. So, you know, they were, it was hard for them to-to- IG: 43:34 Because you were a tight knit family? BP: 43:36 Yeah. IG: 43:37 Yeah. BP: 43:39 And uh, but I think I adjusted pretty fast. And uh, hmm- IG: 43:51 I mean, what? I mean, it is a country, it is fresh air, it is, I mean, it is- BP: 43:57 Well. IG: 43:58 -pretty, it was pretty rural at the time. BP: 44:01 Yes, it was. It was not until I was at Binghamton before I had any understanding of why people took hikes- IG: 44:09 Yeah. BP: 44:09 -you know. But until then, I really just did not understand. Did not get it. But the friends that I made were from Buffalo. IG: 44:18 Yeah. BP: 44:19 And they had more of a non-city, um, feel a non-city. They understood what it was like to not be in a city, and so they kind of introduced me to walks in the country, but it was I had to get used to it, but I understood that I was in college and I was not in the city anymore. I was there to learn, and I think I adjusted pretty fast. IG: 44:52 You adapted very quickly. BP: 44:54 Yeah, and I liked my roommate, that was very important too. Sort of bond with my roommate. IG: 45:02 Did you stay with the same roommate for four years? BP: 45:05 No, I was with him for at least the first year, and possibly two years. Yeah, possibly two years that I was in a suite with several people. IG: 45:21 With how many people? BP: 45:23 I think probably four or five. IG: 45:25 Yeah. BP: 45:26 Yeah. IG: 45:27 So, did you have your own kitchen? And- BP: 45:30 Yes, I think so. IG: 45:31 You think so. So, did that mean that somebody with a car went to town to buy groceries? BP: 45:40 I am not going to be much help here. IG: 45:41 Okay, you do not remember. Do you remember- but you-you would go to the cafeteria? BP: 45:46 Yes, definitely. IG: 45:47 So maybe there was not a kitchen? BP: 45:49 Right. Could be. And I do remember liking hanging out in the student center. IG: 45:55 At the Student Center? BP: 45:56 Right. IG: 45:57 And what- where was that, and what was that like? BP: 46:02 That was by what we call the esplanade. Is it still the student center now? The student union. That is called the student union, right. IG: 46:14 I see. BP: 46:14 But we called it the student center. We would go down and get a snack. IG: 46:19 Yeah. BP: 46:20 Get a burger or something. And uh- IG: 46:24 Did people, you know, I am just getting, you know- did you know- the outside time, the you know, the political climate, the issues of the day- BP: 46:41 Yeah. IG: 46:41 -did you discuss them? BP: 46:44 Yes-yes. IG: 46:44 So, what-what were some of the things that you were discussing- BP: 46:47 Well, mainly the war. IG: 46:48 The mainly the war. BP: 46:49 Yeah. Now I remember being in the student center when the Six Day War in Israel broke out, but I know the timing is right, because I think that was in June (19)67 and I graduated in (19)67 and I must have graduated in- I do not know why I would have been there in June (19)67 but I remember- IG: 47:27 Maybe for the graduation ceremony? BP: 47:29 Could be, could be, but I remember feeling like I want to go over to Israel and fight. You know, I remember SDS. IG: 47:35 Yeah. Right. BP: 47:41 And- IG: 47:42 But you were not part of it. BP: 47:42 I was not part of that, and I was not as radical as that. IG: 47:45 Yeah. Are any of your friends part of SDS? BP: 47:50 Not I remember. No, I do not think so. Um- IG: 48:00 Was there an anxiety about being drafted among your friends? BP: 48:04 Yes, definitely. IG: 48:07 Right. So, were a lot of your friends thinking of going on to graduate schools? BP: 48:15 Uh huh? Definitely. IG: 48:17 Yeah. BP: 48:18 Definitely. IG: 48:20 So, you know what- I am just wondering also the student composition were- you said you mentioned that, you know, there were students from Buffalo, but would you think that the majority were from New York City, Long Island? BP: 48:37 And yes, I think the majority were from New York City, Long Island, definitely. IG: 48:45 But you- did you gravitate to the New York City and Long Island kids, or to the Buffalo kids? BP: 48:52 Well, my friends turned out to be from Buffalo. IG: 48:56 Oh, that is just happened to be. BP: 48:58 Yeah. I am not sure why. IG: 49:00 Yeah. BP: 49:01 They were in my dorm. IG: 49:02 Yeah. Did you ever visit their family's house? BP: 49:07 No. IG: 49:09 Did anybody visit your family? Do you think? BP: 49:13 No, I do not think so. IG: 49:14 No. Well, do you remember any of the- how are we doing for time we still have it is, it is only 4:20. BP: 49:28 Yeah, we are fine. IG: 49:29 Rather, 4:20. BP: 49:30 Yeah, we are fine. IG: 49:31 Um, did your parents have any expectations of you going on to get a job after college or... BP: 49:42 No, they wanted me to get a graduate degree. IG: 49:45 A graduate degree. BP: 49:46 Yeah. IG: 49:49 So, did you get any direction from your advice- did you have a faculty advisor? Did you have a mentor who advised you about where to apply or you know, what was your interaction like with, sort of the academic community, I mean, with the faculty? BP: 50:10 Oh, another faculty member that I remember- IG: 50:13 Yeah. BP: 50:14 -was Peter Donovick. IG: 50:15 Yeah. BP: 50:17 And I think he encouraged me to go to graduate school in physiological psychology. Now there was another faculty member, Dan Fallon, but I do not remember whether I came- I became, I became close with him, but I do not remember whether it was as an undergraduate or after I had come back and was a graduate- I was a laboratory assistant. IG: 50:42 Yeah. BP: 50:43 I am not sure which period. IG: 50:45 But these three-faculty member, these three professors, had an impact. BP: 50:50 Yes. IG: 50:51 Did you ever stay in touch with them after graduating? BP: 50:54 No. IG: 50:55 No. BP: 50:58 Jim- trying to remember whether- IG: 51:04 What-what do you think you know? Why did they advise the schools that they did? I mean, what you said this, that one of the professors advised you to- BP: 51:16 [crosstalk] to go on, to pursue- IG: 51:17 To go on. Yeah. I mean, what do they think of your work? BP: 51:22 I think they thought it was that I was had a lot of potential. IG: 51:25 You had a lot of in-in research? BP: 51:29 Right in research. IG: 51:30 In psychological. BP: 51:30 Right. Because that is what the track that I was on. IG: 51:32 Yeah, I understand. And so, were there any small victories that you remember of as you know, a research assistant during those days. Where would you conduct the research? BP: 51:49 Well, I did a senior project. IG: 51:51 I see. BP: 51:52 And that was, that was really uh- IG: 51:55 What was a senior project? BP: 51:57 I studied the circadian, circadian rhythms of rats. And it was an ambitious project. IG: 52:06 Yeah. BP: 52:08 What I did was I had rats in an activity wheel. IG: 52:14 Right. BP: 52:15 So, they could, they could step out from their cage and run in an activity wheel whenever they wanted. IG: 52:20 Right. BP: 52:20 And if you tracked the activity, you noticed- IG: 52:25 Right. BP: 52:25 -that they had more activity, I think during the-[inaudible] nocturnal or not. IG: 52:33 Right. BP: 52:34 But they might have been more active at night. IG: 52:38 Right. BP: 52:38 And less active during the day- IG: 52:40 Yes. BP: 52:42 -or and then I tried to manipulate the lighting. IG: 52:44 Right. BP: 52:45 So, I put the lights on when they were most active. IG: 52:48 Right. BP: 52:49 Took them off when they were least active. IG: 52:51 Right. BP: 52:51 And they gradually switched. IG: 52:53 Yeah. BP: 52:54 And I did that for quite a while. IG: 52:55 Yeah. BP: 52:56 And then I-I put the light on all the time- IG: 53:01 Yeah. BP: 53:02 -and I saw, I tried to see whether the activity would revert back to the original cycle. IG: 53:07 Yeah. BP: 53:08 And I think it did. And I wrote about that, and I defended the thesis- IG: 53:09 It did. BP: 53:13 -stuff like that. IG: 53:13 Right. BP: 53:13 Yeah, it was, it was. IG: 53:13 Right. BP: 53:14 It was very good research experience. IG: 53:16 It was well received. Do you remember any of the accolades that you got from your faculty? BP: 53:29 No. IG: 53:30 You do not remember. So, when you went to the University of Rochester for your graduate degree, did you feel that Binghamton prepared you well? BP: 53:41 I think it did, and I must have done well, because Rochester is an excellent program. IG: 53:46 Yeah. BP: 53:47 It is a complete Center for Brain research. IG: 53:50 Right. BP: 53:50 And if I had gotten a PhD, I would have taken neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neurophysiology, neuropsychology and neurochemistry. IG: 54:00 Right. BP: 54:01 Which, I think I did take all those courses. IG: 54:03 Right. BP: 54:04 And I was- I felt like I was being held back emotionally for my tendency to be depressed from- IG: 54:14 excuse me [inaudible] BP: 54:16 A tendency to be depressed- IG: 54:18 Yes. BP: 54:18 -held me back emotionally from really doing my best intellectual work. IG: 54:23 Right. BP: 54:24 But that if that had not been there, Rochester would have been an excellent program for me to get a PhD. IG: 54:32 Right. BP: 54:33 And I had a friend who got there who got a PhD and then worked at the UCLA brain research and had a very successful career. IG: 54:49 I am kind of taking it all in and uh- BP: 54:54 But Binghamton definitely prepared me for it. IG: 54:56 Yeah. Do you feel um, a greater affiliation for Binghamton or for Rochester? BP: 55:06 Binghamton. IG: 55:07 Binghamton. Why is that? BP: 55:08 I spent more time there. IG: 55:10 yeah. BP: 55:11 It has been four years there. IG: 55:12 Yeah. BP: 55:13 I have, no I- there is, there is one friend from Rochester that I have kind of kept in touch with, but I have many more relationships from with Binghamton students. And there is just something about your undergraduate experience. There is more spirit there and more identification. IG: 55:38 I absolutely agree. Yeah. Were there any, I mean, you had a very tight knit circle of friends, and at Binghamton, do you remember- and they were all- what, you know, white middle class- BP: 55:57 Oh, yeah. IG: 55:58 Were there any, you know, students of color? Were there any international students going to Binghamton to Harpur College at the time? Do you remember that? BP: 56:10 I do not remember them. IG: 56:12 So, it was pretty- BP: 56:15 Pretty vanilla. IG: 56:16 Pretty homogeneous. BP: 56:17 Yeah. IG: 56:18 Pretty vanilla. BP: 56:19 Yeah. IG: 56:24 You know, did you care about, did you read about- what did you think about, you know, civil rights movement that was kind of really sweeping through [crosstalk] BP: 56:35 That is true. (19)64 is civil rights legislation. IG: 56:38 Yeah. So, did you know about that? Did you kind of- were you aware of that or not really? BP: 56:47 You know, I must have been, but I do not remember. IG: 56:49 You do not remember. BP: 56:50 I do not remember being aware of it, like I was aware of the war crosstalk] IG: 56:53 Of the war because it affected you directly. BP: 56:56 [crosstalk] yeah. IG: 56:56 You know the war. BP: 56:57 Yeah. IG: 56:58 So how did you follow the events of the ward. Were you watching television? Where was the television at the Student Center? BP: 57:08 I think there was a television in the lounge of the dorm. IG: 57:12 Oh, I see, I see. BP: 57:14 Because I remember watching Kennedy's funeral on that television. IG: 57:17 That must have been a shocker. BP: 57:18 Oh my gosh. It is one of those things where you never forget where you were. IG: 57:23 Did you think that, you know what we were under threat, or, you know what did you think? BP: 57:29 Oh, no, I thought it was just so very, very sad. IG: 57:33 Yeah. BP: 57:33 We loved Kennedy. IG: 57:34 Yeah. BP: 57:35 We just loved him. IG: 57:36 Right. BP: 57:37 And to have that taken out from under us was very sad, and his funeral was on my birthday. IG: 57:44 Oh. BP: 57:47 That was the worst birthday I have ever had. IG: 57:49 Yeah. BP: 57:52 So, I remember that very well. I remember Kennedy's assassination, and following- IG: 57:58 Why did you love Kennedy? BP: 58:00 He was- he had such a great sense of life, you know, and sense of humor. We loved his wit. We loved his press conferences, and we thought that he would- he had his heart was in the right place. IG: 58:30 How do you mean? BP: 58:36 I-I think he uh- I think I remember him doing things that made me feel like he would care about minorities. I do not remember exactly what he did, but I mean, probably Johnson did more for the civil rights movement, even Kennedy might have had power to do because Johnson was so good with Congress. IG: 59:07 Right. BP: 59:09 And one question that we always debated afterwards, after he was killed, and then later on- IG: 59:16 With your fellow students? BP: 59:17 Yeah. IG: 59:18 Fellow, I mean, with your friends. BP: 59:19 Right. Was- would Kennedy have dragged us into the war like Johnson did? And you know, our sense was that probably he would not have. IG: 59:32 Yeah. BP: 59:33 But who knows? We just do not know. IG: 59:36 Right. BP: 59:38 But the war is definitely what dominated our thinking [crosstalk] my thinking. I do not remember. I think I must have followed the civil rights march in (19)65 and Martin Luther King's famous speech, but I do not have as much of a recollection of that as I am the war. IG: 1:00:01 Did you talk about politics at home at all? Was that something that was talked to the dinner table? What-what were your parents? Republican demo? BP: 1:00:12 They were Democrat. IG: 1:00:14 Definitely Democrat. BP: 1:00:15 Yeah. IG: 1:00:17 Yeah. So- BP: 1:00:18 I do not think we talked too much about it, but they were definitely Democrats. IG: 1:00:26 Well, you know, do you have any recollections more that you want to share with us about Harpur College and your experience and the impact that you had that it had on you rather. BP: 1:00:44 Uh-huh, yeah. IG: 1:00:52 What-what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? Maybe, as you put it. BP: 1:01:09 I think somehow the whole intellectual atmosphere of college gave me a real conviction that it was important to be intellectually honest, to really study something and be able to and just learn enough about it to really have an informed opinion. IG: 1:01:37 Just beautiful. Yeah. BP: 1:01:41 Yeah. I mean- IG: 1:01:42 And this was a principle that guided you through your life. BP: 1:01:51 Right. IG: 1:01:53 Did you impart this to your students when you were teaching? BP: 1:01:57 I tried to. IG: 1:01:59 What did you tell them? How did you translate that into terms that they could understand? BP: 1:02:06 Well, I was a math teacher. IG: 1:02:08 Yeah. BP: 1:02:09 And I would make- I would tell them, you know, do not take what I am saying just because I am saying it. Really try to understand where this rule or this law comes from. Make it your own. You know, nothing is true just because I am saying it. It all comes from logic and reasoning. And try to reason it out for yourself so that you understand it like I understand it. IG: 1:02:43 So are there any you know and you think that that you know Binghamton- BP: 1:02:54 Oh, yeah. IG: 1:02:56 -formed you in that way to be intellectually honest, BP: 1:03:02 Right. And I mean, I felt like my opinion about the Vietnam War was the most reasoned and intellectually honest opinion I have had almost about almost anything, because I read a whole book on it. I really learned about it, but where-where it started, and who was involved, and when I decided that I was against the war, I just felt like I had really-really good intellectual reasons for-for being against the war. IG: 1:03:37 I really like that. Are there any concluding remarks, as you have? BP: 1:03:53 I think Binghamton has a great reputation, and so I am very proud to be a graduate. Um- IG: 1:04:06 What would you say to future students who are listening or to this recording 10-20, years down the line? What would you say to them? BP: 1:04:18 I would say that going to Binghamton gives you an opportunity to dive into a great intellectual atmosphere and really exercise your mind and learn all kinds of things and make the most of the opportunity. IG: 1:04:37 I think that is wonderful. Thank you so much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Barry Polsky Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Polsky, Barry ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Barry graduated with a degree in Psychology from Harpur. His career spanned different professions. He worked as researcher for a pharmaceutical firm; as a software engineer after earning a graduate degree in computer science. He drove a cab and before retirement worked as a high school math teacher. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Barry Polsky.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-03 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 64:47 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/75e4112a4f48ca3ef264ff49d6875ca4.mp3 5406d3167c66579b9a4fc73cd2c28538 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bbbda9cebd06cc1ca5f5fc188f61f092.jpg d6dc2c1b73b2c179a3ff7186caf1451c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-03-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Barry Schneider Year of Graduation 1964 Biographical Text Recipient of Distinguished Alumnus Award. Principal of Schneider Mediation. Avid athlete at Harpur College. (His nickname at Harpur was “Peanuts.”) Mediation judge in Phoenix. He (Ret.) served on the Maricopa County Superior Court for 21 years, from 1986 to 2007. He first practiced in New York City and moved to Phoenix in 1971. He was an associate at Langerman, Begam, Lewis, Leonard & Marks until 1977, when he formed the partnership Rosen & Schneider, Ltd. He has a strong background in Arizona civil litigation from the perspective of both a judge and a civil trial attorney. While on the bench, he served on the Criminal Department, in addition to serving as Presiding Civil Department Judge and Presiding Family Law Judge. His 18-month tenure on the Arizona Supreme Court’s Committee on Jury Reform led to groundbreaking changes in the rules and practice of jury trials in Arizona. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Barry Schneider Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 11 March 2019 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) BS: 00:00 [inaudible] My name is Barry Schneider, graduated 1964 from Harpur College, and I am now a retired superior court judge in Phoenix, Arizona. Today is March 1, 2019. IG: 00:17 Where are we? And [inaudible] BS: 00:19 We are in my office in Phoenix I have as a retired judge. I became a mediator/arbitrator. I do not practice law, although my license is active and I have an office in Phoenix at 1313, East Osborne Road, Phoenix, Arizona, 85014. IG: 00:39 And what are you doing? BS: 00:41 And I am told that what we are doing is compiling some kind of an oral history of my wonderful time at Harpur College in the (19)60s. IG: 00:49 Exactly-exactly. All right. So, thank you very much for that intro. So maybe we can begin by your just tell me a little bit of by way of background, where did you grow up and who your parents were? What they did? Did they encourage you to continue with your higher education? BS: 01:11 Absolutely. I was born in the Bronx in New York, right near Yankee Stadium, and my family moved when I was 12 years old to the south shore of Long Island, to Woodmere New York, five towns on the south shore, and I went to high school at Hewlett on Long Island. I graduated high school in 1960 I had played varsity basketball and varsity baseball in high school, and my parents were off born in the United States from parents who had emigrated around turn of the 20th century from Russia and other countries around there. My father was a small businessman who owned a small manufacturing business that manufactured leather wedding albums and such. My mother was a homemaker. She-she was a brilliant card player. She is a life master in Bridge at a very early age, played poker in her later years, very smart woman. I had a sister that unfortunately passed away when I was a junior in college. She was 17. The family moved to Long Island when it came to applying to colleges, my high school limited us to three applications, and I applied to Cornell engineering, because I figured I could not get into Cornell otherwise, and I had an interest in math at the time. And I applied to University of Vermont, and I applied to Harpur College, which was definitely promoted strongly by my high school guidance counselor. He put it in terms of, economically, it is obviously a good deal, but scholastically, it has got an excellent reputation. It is going to be a growing, wonderful university in the northern part of the state. It is part of the state system. It is going to have funding, presumably, it was 1000 students or so when I applied, it sounded great, and I was accepted to all three and I chose Harpur. IG: 01:12 Why? BS: 01:58 For all those reasons, I liked the idea that it was small. I did not really want to go to an engineering school in Vermont. I did not really know anything about it, so Harpur seemed the right fit for me. And my parents are very encouraging. Fact, I still remember, finally, my father passed away in 2006, 92 I still remember fondly the trip that he and I took from our home to Binghamton from my orientation. It was just the two of us. It was a wonderful couple of days together. So, they were very supportive. IG: 04:27 Had you- thank you. Had you ever visited Binghamton before arriving on campus? BS: 04:37 I do not think so. I am not sure. I do not have a recollection of it. I do not think so. IG: 04:47 So, what were your first impressions your- BS: 04:50 I did visit. I did visit because I remember being taken through the dorm and knocking on somebody's door. I cannot remember who it was. It could have been somebody became a big director. No, he was here behind me. Was not Andrew Bergman. He was a year behind me. Was Andrew Bergman's good friend I was thinking about that was not them knocked on somebody's door. They showed me the dorm room. So, I was there for a brief time before I actually went there. And my impressions were, what did I know? 17-year-old kid from Long Island. I do not know anything. IG: 05:26 So, you know you-you had not experienced rural life before, right? BS: 05:33 No, Suburban. You know, Bronx in suburbia. IG: 05:37 Okay, so- BS: 05:38 Camps every now and then. IG: 05:40 Yeah. So, what were some of the first impressions that you had of the place of the students that you met on your first days? BS: 05:48 It is hard to remember the first impressions my first activities. I remember this. I do not know if it is of any interest, but I have an athletic interest. I went to college having no-no dreams of ever having any intercollegiate experience. I remember my high school basketball coach laughing at me. He says, “As soon as you hear that basketball bounce, you are going to be in the gym.” I am 5'6", (5')7", whatever, and I am a little tiny runt. I so the first thing I did was, I think I knew who my roommate was. I think we met before we went up there. We had a mutual friend. He got kicked out of the school in our sophomore year, but I went down to the gym, which was then the small gym, which I do not know if it is a women's gym now or not, it was not the big field house by any means, and there were on the outdoor basketball courts. There were a bunch of games going on. One of the players in one of the games was a junior at Harpur. His name is Jimmy Davis. I knew Jimmy pretty well because he was a star of the basketball team a couple of years ahead of me at Hewlett, and his younger brother was a year behind me at Hewlett, and we were teammates on the basketball team. And in fact, I remember talking to Jimmy before I made my decision about Harpur, because I would I knew that he had gone there, and he was very encouraging. And I saw Jimmy on the play on the basketball courts playing with his older guy turned out to be the basketball coach. And Jimmy says, "Hey, peanuts." So, peanuts was my name from orientation week until I graduated and I got into the game that the coach was playing, Jimmy was playing. I do not know if Mickey Greenberg was there. Probably was. And because of Jimmy, who the coach idolized, Jimmy was a God. He was a great player, because I was kind of part of his whatever I was seen by the coach as, hey, this is potential, whatever. In fact, the coach had told me that my JV basketball coach in high school had met him earlier that summer at some coaches’ conference, and for some reason he knew I was going to Harpur and mentioned to the coach, Frank Pollard, hey, this kid, peanuts is coming, you know, keep your eye out for him. That is my first recollection of anything during orientation week. Remember getting the beanies, and if you know when the beanie, they-they did an H in your forehead. And I was, I was always getting an H on my forehead because I was challenging these ridiculous norms, whatever, that is what I remember. I started off as a math major, and I think either after my first semester or my second semester, I said, "No, that is not for me." I had four eight o'clock in my first semester. It was freezing cold. I never could not get the you know; I did not want to go to class. And I have a good friend, Tony D'Aristotle, who graduated a year before me, who was also on the basketball team, local from Binghamton, still lives in Binghamton. Used to live Montreal, taught Montreal in McGill, taught at Stanford, taught and spent time down South America back in Binghamton, I stayed his house. When I am there. He was a math major; he was a professor of math. He was a PhD in math, and he remembers the conversation that I do not remember when I told Dick Wick Hall, who was a professor of math, I do not think this is for me. And Hall said, okay, he could not care less. So, I started as a math major, then I had to figure out a major, and I majored in economics. There was that a little bit of math in it. IG: 05:48 Yeah. How- what did you think of-of the students in your classes? BS: 05:48 I loved it. There was all this political, civil rights stuff going on, hippies, beats. On beatniks and dressing, you know, differently. I remember the fun we used to have, and I was kind of a part of that. I was, I went up to Buffalo to-to demonstrate against house on American Activities Committee, and I, I was part of that group, but I was not as fringed as they were. But I remember going into town wearing my Harpur jacket, carrying my communism textbook from social science whatever, just to get a reaction from the local people. I mean, we had fun, but we were but we will push. We were part of that generation, the sexual revolution, civil rights revolution. I remember Stokely Carmichael coming to the campus. IG: 10:51 When-when? BS: 10:53 (19)63, (19)64. IG: 10:55 I had not realized that. BS: 10:57 And John Lewis, I think, was with him as well. IG: 10:59 Oh, really? BS: 11:00 I think so. And I just kind of was on the background, just [crosstalk] IG: 11:06 We actually have their- we have John Lewis's interview for another collection. BS: 11:12 Okay, yeah, but I was very wrapped up in that social in the social political culture. IG: 11:18 I had not realized was that that early in the (19)60s. BS: 11:23 Before the Vietnam War, it was purely the civil rights movement. And I marched on Washington in 1963--there was groups that were being sent by Harpur College, and I did not really get a part of that. I go home, it is August, back home and talk about parents encouraging you. And my sister had died earlier that year, and I am home and the civil rights march, the March on Washington, and I said, I want to go and by myself. I got on a train, and my mother packed me a lunch, goodbye and good luck and Godspeed. She was proud of me. So was my father. IG: 12:05 How wonderful. BS: 12:06 It was, tearing up, but I mean to me, those four years were irrepla- irreplaceable. Girlfriends broke up with me, all that stuff. It was a real coming of age experience. IG: 12:26 Tell us a little bit more about the groups that you socialized with and- BS: 12:30 I was a member. I was kind of rushed by. We did not have they did not have fraternity news. Then they had social clubs. And one of the leading social clubs was Adelphi. I do not know if it is still there. This is where the President the senior class was a member, and all-all the Upstate waspy guys. And then there was SOS, which was much more ragged and much more rowdy. Then there was ITK, there was goal yards, and I was somewhat known on campus. I mean, I was six men on the basketball team in my freshman year. I started in my junior year, and I got rushed SOS rushed me. Some of my best friends were in SOS, and I chose Adelphi because that was, you know, that was the prestigious thing to do. And I got so tired of it. By my junior year, I basically dropped out. I got tired of things like the pledge, this pledges with pledge, and then we had sat down like we had this authority. No, yes, no, yes. It just bothered me. I said, I do not want to be part of this, so I dropped out and I became more of the hippie kind of- IG: 13:46 Well, tell me about the young people who were part of this hippie group. BS: 13:52 They were- IG: 13:53 Who were they? They were from Long Island in New York City- BS: 13:56 Mostly- there was mostly downstate, but some upstate as well. They dress scruff here they most of them were, well, a lot of them were literature majors, very artistic, very creative. Deborah Tannen, okay, big name in Harpur College was a good friend of mine. She was a year behind me, and I hung out. She one of her best friends was my girlfriend at the time, and we and her boyfriend at the time was also a year behind me, Mike Tillis, who is now in Israel with a long, Hasidic kind of a life for many years. And we would double date. I had a car. We would go out after games. Deborah Tennant and I were good friends, and we still are in contact with each other, although I am not, you know, she is Deborah Tannen and I am not. She is really a celebrity. I mean, she is, she is, she is amazing. The last reunion, we spent some time together, I have pictures of my phone with her. She is wonderful. And she was, really, she was an English major. She became, you know, a linguistics PhD. I guess they are related, but that is the kind of folks I was hanging out with. They were not really. Some of them were just hanging out in a snack bar. They were not. Some of them were not good students. Deborah was my girlfriend was and who is your girlfriend? Elaine Selling. I have no idea what has happened to her. She had broken up with a boyfriend before me. We went out. She dumped me to go back with him. That is all what I remember. I am just trying to think there was, who were these kids. I mean, I was friendly with the athletes and kind of this group, you know, I was, I was sort of a bridge between them, of sorts. IG: 15:58 The athletes were not politicized. BS: 16:01 Yeah, some of them were. IG: 16:01 Some of them were. BS: 16:02 Yeah, but not as much as these kids. IG: 16:05 Yeah. What kind of things did they talked about? What, what did you talk about when you were with them? BS: 16:10 Oh, what typically young men talk about? Women basketball exams in school? Nothing that I can remember that is, you know, particularly [crosstalk] IG: 16:22 [inaudible] on American activities. Did you talk about anything political or [crosstalk] when was in the air at the time? BS: 16:29 I think the Vietnam War. I cannot remember where that was starting to heat up. But, you know, there were draft issues. You know, we were concerned about the draft. Some of us, some of them, my classmates, went to pretty, not extremes, but went to medical school they could not get into us, and went to Bologna, just, you know, right, basically, to avoid the that is not fair to say, but I went to graduate school, I lasted a semester, and then I went to law school. IG: 17:07 Where did you go to graduate school? BS: 17:10 Rutgers in economics. I actually lasted a semester, and then I quit in the second semester. I did not like it. My economics advisor was a guy named John LaTourette. It was a wonderful guy. IG: 17:24 Yeah. So, you know, just, let us backtrack before you went to law school. So, you know some of the professors that made an impression on you. Can you remember some names? BS: 17:36 John LaTourette. He was my Economics professor. Took a number of courses with him. There was a guy named Hamilton, associate sociology professor. He was pretty left. He had a good relationship with a lot of these students. There was a guy who taught statistics, I do not remember his name, that I just enjoyed. We had a good relationship. I hate, I hate his statistics. I think I got to be in this, somehow, Van [Robert VanHadel] something. I kind of have an image of him, but he would not remember me. I do not remember him. I lived off campus since my sophomore year, starting my sophomore year, since I was able to, I did, and I lived with some upperclassmen, and I lived with guys in my sophomore year who were dirty, who were stealing exams. They all got kicked out, and I was not and I said, do not, I do not want to see it. Leave me alone. But I was in the house with these guys. It was very uncomfortable. But did not never I was, I always, I was, you know, what is that word Teflon? I was Teflon. About that me. I never got, nobody ever talked to me. But I never got pulled in. But I knew the guy that knew the combination to this, and then he was able to get the exams and go away. I do not, I do not want this. I do not want to do this. And I would, you know, I was pretty good student in economics. I was actually second highest in the class in that in that major. It is hard to say, but those guys got kicked out in my sophomore year. My roommate, I told you about, he was involved in that. There was about half dozen-dozen that did not graduate because they were shamed out of the school. And it was, it was a was scandalous, what was going on. And, you know, I did not blow the whistle on these guys. I just go away. I do not want to know about it. IG: 19:41 Right-right. Kennedy assassination. BS: 19:45 Oh yeah, our yearbook. I remember I was in the snack bar. You know, everybody remembers where they were. And there is a picture in my yearbook, which I have at home. My house burnt down, but that did not burn. And. Then whoever took I-I am in one of the pictures, and we are just like this, you know, totally morose and sad and looking down, and that was captured in the yearbook. Did you ever see the yearbooks back? IG: 20:16 Yes-yes-yes. BS: 20:17 Okay, there is pictures of the Kennedy the day Kennedy was killed. Very moving, but it was just I was I remember being in the snack bar. Snack bar was like the womb. It was where everybody went. And I will tell you a cute story. Perhaps I am now living in Phoenix. I have all kids who are about how old eight, seven, ten, eight and eleven, and a bunch of families going to the movies on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, and we are going to see the In-laws. And I had no idea Andrew Bergman wrote this, and I am sitting in the movie, and I am laughing louder, harder than everybody else in the theater, and I said out loud, and my wife will swear to this, this feels like I am in the snack bar, and it was Andrew Bergman who hung out in a snack bar. This is same humor that I grew up with in Harpur College. Was in that movie, you know, the movie IG: 21:24 With De Niro. BS: 21:25 No Peter Faulk. IG: 21:27 Oh-oh [crosstalk] BS: 21:29 Go see it on Netflix. It is one of the it is, Peter Faulk and Alan Arkin. IG: 21:36 Yeah, they are great actors. BS: 21:37 And Alan Arkin is this dentist, and Peter Faulk is his, who knows? Why is his CIA agent? We do not know for sure. And he gets Alan Arkin, who is his most upright, prudish kind of guy, to go to South America to some banana republic. And they get into these scrapes and-and they are running because people are shooting at them. And the famous scene is, is that Peter Faullk is saying serpentine-serpentine so they have to go back. Serpentines means when we run like this. So, he has already run straight, has not been shot now he has to go back and sir. It is hilarious, but it was the humor that I knew and felt comfortable with from Harpur College snack bar. IG: 22:17 It comes from another place. It comes from another place. It comes from, you know, maybe New York City. BS: 22:26 Oh, yeah. Andrew Burton was from New York City. IG: 22:28 Exactly. BS: 22:29 Of course. IG: 22:29 That is where- BS: 22:30 But that, but we infected the snack bar, and that is, you know, that is how we sat around. And there is those that have, not jokes that we told, but those-those- IG: 22:41 Kind of humor. BS: 22:41 Yeah. IG: 22:42 Which is, how would you describe this humor? BS: 22:46 It is kind of little bit it is a it is a little screwy. It is not, it is not [inaudible] young men telling jokes. It is kind of a warp view of the world. The other story I heard about Andrew Bergman, who wrote Blazing Saddles. Now that you have seen, right? IG: 23:07 Yes. BS: 23:08 And Mel Brooks confirmed this about two or three years ago. He had this one-on-one interview on HBO for a couple hours. Was one of my- I was a big thing at Harpur College too. Was a 2000-year-old man? They just came out. Mel Brooks and Carl Erin is 2000-year-old man on record came out just before at that time, and we used to speak to each other from phrases from the record, I will never walk. I do not walk for a bus will always be another. You know, fear is the main compulsion, propulsion, whatever. The story I heard, and it was kind of confirmed by Mel Brooks, is that Bergman wrote this book Blazing Saddles. He went on to history at Wisconsin for post graduate. And it's, I never read the book, and a movie theater picked it up and says to Bergman, write the script. And this is a story I heard. Bergman had a lot of trouble writing the screenplay, and he was not producing, and he had writer's block, and he had all those problems. So, the studio says, "Okay, we will give you some help." So, Mel Brooks and Richard Pryor are hired to help Andrew Bergman write this script. And can you, I always say this, can you imagine sitting in a room with these guys? They are crazy. I mean [crosstalk] of course, everybody would have had a peak into that. So Blazing Saddles then gets published, I mean, produced, and it is incredible. And it is that humor. Also, it is the opening scene when Mel Brooks is Indian chief and comes up on these African Americans who are working on the railroad, and he goes schwatzers. IG: 24:54 [laughs] BS: 24:54 It is class, it is classic. That is classic. IG: 24:58 That is very New York. BS: 25:01 How much more New York can you be- IG: 25:03 No, you cannot. BS: 25:04 -than Mel Brooks, and it is just, I went to see Blazing Saddles. I had just it was early (19)70s. I moved here in (19)71 to Phoenix, and we went out with another couple, also from New York, who have been here a few years long, more than we have, and we went to see Blazing Saddles in the movies. And as we are walking into the theater, there is this family of cowboys and cow girls and cow, cow father, cow mother and five, five or six cow kids in their cowboy hats and their boots. They are thinking they go to see, going to see a shoot them up. And they go into a Wayne movie, right? They go in, they sit down in the theater and kind of watching them. And the opening scene, when Mel Brooks goes Schwartz, they on-on mass, get up and leave the theater. Phoenix is not New York, no, it is not. It is not, it is, it is more and more it is, you know, it is, it is progressing. This was a small Southwestern town. It is still conservative, but there is a lot more of that happening. liberal stuff happening anyway. So, I do not that is fine. I knew Andrew Bergman a little bit. And I remember when I went to see the movie with Bert Parks that he wrote about stuffed animals. They were killing these rare birds and rare animals. I forget what they are doing. It was, it was a ridiculously comic type of thing. Bert Parks played his Miss America role, and Marlon Brando had a role in that, in which he played, which he mocked himself in The Godfather. And I remember writing a letter to, I do not know if he ever wrote back, writing a letter to Andrew Bergen and say, “How did you ever get Marlon Brando to sit down and accept this role?” I forget the name of the movie, but it is a Bergman was good. He was he has not done anything in a long time. I do not think, but I think he was very successful. I think he had a place on Central Park, South or North, or whatever, and. IG: 27:26 Let us talk about you then. BS: 27:27 Okay. IG: 27:28 Okay, so, I mean, you obviously had an interest in comedy. BS: 27:33 Well, yeah, I like [crosstalk] IG: 27:35 Films? BS: 27:36 Yeah. IG: 27:37 Was that- was there an opportunity to do that at Harpur was- BS: 27:43 A little bit. IG: 27:43 Film Club, or- BS: 27:44 I have to go to the restroom. Can we shut this off for a while when we do that? Professor is the one that I remember was Sidney Harcave, who was a preeminent Russian history scholar. I took two or three classes with him. We used his textbook Russia, a history and I remember once I had three finals on one day, and I was freaking out, and I went to him, and his advice to me was, get a good night's sleep. I wanted to take it some other time, but he would not do that. He was really fantastic professor, and I really enjoyed his classes, walking around campus. I am remembering now things like Sid Arthur Herman has his novels, the kids walking around reading that stuff, part of the, you know, the evolution of-of these young people who are starting to sprout their own wings and separate themselves from their parents’ generation and from and changing the cultural surroundings that they were part of. There was a beehive of that kind of activity back in the (19)60s. [crosstalk] Yeah, I mean, I did not understand I was not the scholar they were. So, I was kind of listening to them talk about it. But I had a girlfriend who was a literature major, and Deborah Tanner was her best friend. I mean, I had, if I wanted to talk to these people, I had, I had to pick up the book that they were reading, kind of and but I enjoyed it. I mean, it was, it was a wonderful awakening coming, you know, coming of age kind of a thing. There was, you know, I still look back upon those days terribly fondly, and always felt very fortunate that I had that opportunity. But on the other hand, having gone to Harpur College, there was a little bit of a of a burden in that when I graduated law school and I went out interviewing for jobs, I put down Harpur College and all that stuff. The first question I got from everybody interviewing me, where is Harpur College? Nobody ever heard of it. This is 1968, (19)69 and it was a bit of a, you know, an obstacle. IG: 30:13 It was in you- BS: 30:15 It was founded in 1948 and it had an amazing reputation, but nobody knew about it. It was not known. And these high-priced lawyers in these large law firms who went to all the Ivy League schools and were snobs about that, their first question to me was, where is Harpur College? So, I would not answer, but I had this. It was, it was incredible. Every single interview I got that same question. They never heard of it. They have now. IG: 30:48 They have now, and they have- BS: 30:51 And, I am sorry, they changed the name because the name, you know, I understand, [crosstalk], yeah, they changed it two or three times. It was SUNY at Binghamton. It was Binghamton University. Harpur College developed a great name. I am sorry that it was not still not the name of the school. IG: 31:09 Yeah, because, as someone told me, you know it your generation got the end and the generation. Well, while Harpur College existed, that you got an elite education, liberal arts education for almost no money. BS: 31:34 Right. I think we had an incoming class. It was told student body was about 1000 our incoming class is about 300 something. 10 percent of those kids were valedictorians in high school. Mean, these were top students in each of their schools who could not afford to go to an Ivy League school. This was the their-their opportunity, and the school thrived because of not only the professors being like Sidney Harcave, this preeminent scholar in his field. There were others in geology, there were in in all different all different departments, but the kids were very active and creative, and they part of what created that environment, not just the professors. It was that it was this frenetic activity, the civil rights movement and the war in Vietnam, obviously was heating up things I was thinking about that one of my good friends who was a year ahead of me. He was on the basketball team, Kenny Hoffman. His name is on the Vietnam Memorial in DC. He was a pilot, and he was killed, and it was not much after we graduated, we needless to say, most of the students were very actively opposed to the war, and I was really was not sure I was one of them. And after I graduated, I marched in down Fifth Avenue. I was anti-war, and I really did not understand as much until I saw Ken Burns thing on-on public TV. IG: 33:28 Emily being your- you said, Emily. BS: 33:32 No-no, Ken Burns. IG: 33:34 Ken Burns. No. You said, somebody did not understand. BS: 33:39 I did not. IG: 33:39 You did not understand. BS: 33:40 I did not understand why I was so it was the- my friends were opposed to it. So, I am I did not really understand the gravity, the gravitas, the you know, that, you know, I hated Nixon and I hated the war and I did all that stuff, but not. It was not until I became a lot, until recently, really, when all came together with-with-with Ken Burns's incredible documentary on the Vietnam War. It was amazing. It was just a hell hole. Kick any deeper and deeper, and I did not really appreciate it at that time. I was not as knowledgeable. It was not as aware. IG: 34:21 And all the people that orchestrated it already knew that it was, BS: 34:25 I am not sure. They were kids. They were rebelling. They were revolting. IG: 34:26 The administration- BS: 34:28 Oh yeah, they knew Johnson knew he was caught me, lied about Tonkin Gulf and all that to get us in there, just like George W Bush did to get us into Iraq. IG: 34:43 So, there was Vietnam moving over. All of you did that create anxiety? BS: 34:51 Yeah, sure, the draft and the war and all that. I do not remember it exactly, but we were so opposed to it, we could never see ourselves carrying a gun in Vietnam. It did not make any sense. IG: 35:07 Did your professors support you? BS: 35:10 A lot of them did. BS: 35:11 They did not need to. They did not need it. We did not need protection. We did not need protection. We were not doing anything illegal. We were not doing anything that was going to get us in trouble. We were not, you know- IG: 35:11 Did they sort of protect you? IG: 35:26 Did they encourage you to go on to grad school? BS: 35:29 John LaTourette encouraged me to go on to economics. He gave me a reference letter. And actually, lots of rec, I think, was from Rutgers. I had spent some time there, and he got me a fellowship, which I felt badly about, but I said, it is not for me. IG: 35:51 So, what happened next? You dropped out of Rutgers. How did you become? I mean, give me sort of the arc of your career. How did you become a superior court judge? BS: 36:06 That is a very it is interesting to me. I am not sure to anybody else, but I am trying to think of whether I should, I should say this on the record, but I dropped out of graduate school in Rutgers after one semester, and I knew that I am looking at being drafted. I do not have any-any educational protection, so I applied. I had been accepted in graduate school at City University in New York, and I lasted. I went about a month, and I just stopped going. I never quit. I never announced it resignation letter. I just stopped going. So, I am knowing that in my mind, I got to, you know, I got to figure out something a lot of a lot of people I knew were signing up on in reserve units to avoid getting drafted, to delay it by a year or two, my best man at my wedding who was simpatico, and all the things that we felt at the time. He winds up going to officer candidate training school in the Marines, and he is now in Vietnam as a second lieutenant, which is the most dangerous position on the battlefield. He is the guy saying, follow me, and he gets shot in the back by his own men. He survived, thank God, but he went, he signed up in a reserve unit that got activated, and he is now in Vietnam. That is the kind of stuff that was happening that was after we graduated. So going to law school had a lot to do with figuring that piece out. I did not really ever dream of being a lawyer. IG: 37:47 What did you dream of becoming? BS: 37:49 Nothing. IG: 37:50 Nothing? BS: 37:51 I could not play professional baseball because I was not good enough and I was too short for basketball. So, I had no dreams. My father had a nice business. My father was such a wonderful man. He would have embraced the fact, if I would have gone into business with him, it would have been the happiest man in the world. He understood that I did not want to do that, and he encouraged me to do whatever I wanted. So, I went to law school. I applied late. I got accepted to Brooklyn Law School, St John's law school, and I think I was rejected NYU in Columbia, maybe because it was late, maybe because I was not good enough. A lot of Harpur graduates were at St John's, people a year ahead of me or two, and I knew them pretty well, and it was easy for me to get in, you know, to kind of be engulfed and protected by them. So, I went to St John's. I was living at my parents’ house, and on Long Island. I take the train every day from Long Island to Brooklyn. Was in Brooklyn, and now it is in Queens, and I did real well. I was like top five in my first-first semester, and I thought I flunked out. I went on a ski trip with some of these my friends from Harpur who were your head of me, and I told them, I am not even buying my books for next semester I flunked out. They laughed at me. I am telling you, I flunked out. We were at the ski trip, and my mother calls and she reads me my grades, and they sounded okay. And I tell these graceton, these friends of mine, they said, “My God, you are probably number one in the class.” I said “I was number five.” I made Law Review, which is a whole other world in law school, it is a you spend a lot of time with the elites of the elite students in law school, putting together a legal magazine, periodical. I scholarly, and you spend hours reading and editing and discussing and looking for it is, it is a whole other life. And I did that for the rest of my law school career. And I did, I did not study as hard because I had Law Review for one thing. And I thought it was a piece of cake now. So, I went from like an 85 average to a 77 average in my second semester, then I kind of leveled out. I did okay. I did not. Was not good enough to get a job in the big Wall Street firms because they never heard of Harpur College. For one thing, my first job out of law school- IG: 40:17 When was this? What year? BS: 40:20 I graduated law school in (19)68 if I would have graduated with my class would have been (19)67 but I spent that year screwing around graduate school, and I still had to worry about the draft, because now I was about 25 and 26 is the magic number, so one of the things I did was to apply. I got a job within what is called OEO, legal services for the poor, Office of Economic Opportunity, federal concept, and John-Robert Kennedy had a lot to do with that, bringing publicly funded law firms, in effect, into the ghettos to assist the people who live there. IG: 41:08 Is that a precursor of legal aid- BS: 41:10 Legal Aid in New York was criminal, so this was the civil side. IG: 41:14 I see, I see. BS: 41:15 And that is where I got a job and I applied to the to the Selective Service that I think what I am doing here is more important to my country than carrying a gun in Vietnam did not work, so I eventually did not, did not have to get drafted. It is a long story that I am not going to tell now, but a lot of what I did, and a lot of my-my-my friends, were doing this frenzy time was figuring out ways not to get killed in Vietnam. Trump does. Trump did the same thing. You know, my I never mind. So, I really took the law school, and I graduated in (19)68 I am working at Bedford Stuyvesant, legal services for the community center, whatever borrow legal services for the poor, going down every day with 10,15, files the landlord and tenant court representing people that were being evicted and it was not going anywhere. It was not a job that [phone rings] I will let Chelsea answer that. So, then I got a job in a small Wall Street firm does not exist anymore. It was like 12 lawyers, not a big they had some big clients, some big Israeli connected Bank Leumi, Israel was a big client of theirs and other Israeli connected businesses. And then my wife. IG: 42:58 How did you meet your wife? Is that your wife? BS: 43:01 That is my wife. IG: 43:01 Yeah, I thought so. BS: 43:03 We have a great first date story. But I guess, since I am revealing so much about myself, I will tell you that in a moment. But my wife said to me, this is now 1970ish, and I am working now at [inaudible] and Bookstein, no longer it in Bedford, Stuyvesant in Brooklyn. And she is from Connecticut. She went to NYU, that is where we met, and she is working in the city we have by the time we move; our daughter was eight months old. But before we had children, she was working at banker's trust thing, which is now Bank of America, and doing very well working on whatever. She was having horrible experiences on the subway with perverts on the subway, and she said, "I cannot I cannot stand this anymore. I- we have to move." So, the logical thing for any New Yorker like myself, she is not a New Yorker, was to move to Long Island or Westchester or New Jersey. And we looked at some houses, and then we kind of looked at each other, and we said, “Boy, if we get, if we move and keep this job, we are stuck for the rest. We cannot move. We are, we are just imprisoned by this system. We cannot afford ever, or buy in a house we cannot afford whatever.” So, we said, “Let us take a look at this.” I never heard of Phoenix. I heard of Phoenix. I never knew anything about it, and I was out of a law school friend of mine, we graduated, and we were at a party at his house, and we are sitting around, what do you want to move to? What do you want to do? I do not want to go to Miami. It is too it is too much like New York. It is too much the same. So, somebody says, What about Phoenix, Arizona? I said, “Where is it? What is it?” So, I had, we had from law school. We had these little two by four little diaries, pocket diaries that a large publishing house handed out. And they had an atlas, and they had all the states broken down by Northeast, Northwest, and there was Arizona, right next to New Mexico, next to Texas, and it was close to Las Vegas. This far from LA looked like a good place, and I started reading about it. They have not. They just established an NBA basketball franchise that is important. So, sight unseen. Basically, I came out here for an exploratory run. Nothing happened, and we packed up. Six months later, we packed without a job, we packed up. We just moved out here. Some connections. I had to take the bar exam in those days. You had to have a six-month residency, and then you took the bar exam. Not true anymore today, so I got a job in a firm because I was not licensed to just do Scrivener work for a couple $100 a month. I still had to look for a real job. And I finally got a job in a law firm downtown, a prominent personal injury law firm, which I knew nothing about. And I was there from (19)72 to (19)77 when I formed a partnership with an older friend of mine, and we were together from (19)77 to about (19)84 and we kind of split the sheets, and we kept the name, but I was on my own, kind of building a practice. Meanwhile, friends of mine, good friends of mine, are applying and becoming judges on the Superior Court or state court of general jurisdiction, and I am talking to my friends and, "Gee, that sounds like a nice gig. I mean, I like to do that. " And I am 42, 43 years old, kind of young, but it is- we have merit selection in Arizona. We do not have general elections. Least the three largest counties in Arizona, you go through a screening process, you make an application, there is a commission that is half lawyers, half lay people presided over by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. You submit your application. In my day, there was like 75 applicants for two positions. They call through them, 15 or so are then interviewed, then they take five and they send it to the governor, and the governor must choose from that short list, and half of that short list has to be different political parties. So, depoliticize it is to bring it is called Merit selection, and it was kind of new at the time it came in, oh, maybe a few years before that, I would never run for election. It is not who I am. Bruce Babbitt was the governor at the time, and I did my application, got my interview, and I was appointed on the first shot, which was not remarkable, but it was usually it is two or three times when you to get it. I was very fortunate. IG: 48:16 What kind of cases did you try? BS: 48:18 Well, we have three departments. We have, well, we have more than that. We have a civil department, we have a criminal department, we have a probate department. Most of my time as a private lawyer was in civil. I did not do any criminal, really. I did some domestic relation. Domestic Relations was the other one. Domestic Relations, probate, civil and criminal. I did when I left the firm and joined with this guy. I needed business, so I did anything that came in the door, and I did some divorce work, which nobody wants to do. So, the- our court is a court of general jurisdiction, which means we are, we are not a local justice of the peace court. We are not- we do not hear small matters. We hear major matters, major felonies, murders, kidnapping and we hear major civil cases for millions of dollars as well as little cases. So, we hear, as a civil in the civil department, we hear everything that could be filed, medical malpractice case, lawyer malpractice case, products liability case, automobile accidents, partnership dissolutions, real estate fraud, transactions, everything that you ever learned about in law school is on your plate as a civil department judge, criminal is what you would expect in criminal. I had no, no background the criminal, but I took to it, and I need today, 10, 15, years, 12 years after I retired, I will run into one of the lawyers used to practice in my court, and they think of me as a criminal person, criminal, you know, and I am not. It took me six months to learn the language I. Had no idea what was going on when I was on criminal. I was scared to death. I mean, I look out on the morning. We have a morning calendar in criminal and that is when we do our sentencings, emotions for release, our conferences before we did our trials. And there would be maybe 12 inmates sitting there in the jury box waiting for their case to be called, and on that side of the room, maybe their family members are sitting behind them, and on the other side of the room is the is, is the victims, and then there is the prosecutors and the defense lawyers. And I used to walk out on a bench. I used to look at this array, and I say to myself, I know less than every one of these people in this courtroom about what I am doing, but it took me about six months, and all of a sudden, I had- IG: 50:49 You gained the confidence just by doing up and doing it. BS: 50:53 Reading it and figuring it out and understanding the lexicon. And it is not really hard. It is the easiest for me. It is the easiest. It was the easiest assignment. Criminal. There was some- IG: 51:04 What was the hardest? BS: 51:06 Civil was the hardest in terms of the difficulty of the issues. The hardest assignment probably was domestic relations, because you had to resolve unresolvable disputes. There was never enough money to go around, never enough time with the children. And you had people fighting it, you know, because they hated each other, and that was difficult on the toll it took on you personally, civil was the most difficult because the issues were the most, the most difficult. IG: 51:44 Like what issues did you- BS: 51:47 Just itis evolved. Now, you know, I have been gone 12 years, but I do mediation, so I see the cases at the mediation stage, and there is summary judgments, you know, 10 inches thick that you have to read through and prepare for oral argument to decide and on our court. We do not have any research assistance. We do not have any staff. We do it by ourselves. It is very, very time consuming, and it's, you know, every commercial case, they think they have entitlement to a summary judgment as a matter of law. So, they file one or two or more, and it is pages and pages and pages of stuff on. Could be economic loss rule. It could be on, you know, whatever legal doctrine is being bad need about, and it is constantly evolving and changing. You got to keep up. I got invited fairly often to speak at State Bar seminars on various issues, which was a challenge for me. IG: 52:50 What kind of issues Did you speak about? BS: 52:53 Motion practice, how to write motions, how to be more persuasive. I wrote about evidence, evidentiary things I spoke about number of times on some ethical issues the Code of Professional Conduct. IG: 53:11 Such as? BS: 53:12 Candor toward the tribunal. Point 3.3. Of the Code of Professional Conduct, you must be candid in front of a judge. You cannot be misleading or lie. And there are cases that are very interesting reads, and I would talk about that, you know, beyond the faculty, talking about things like that, oh, I do not remember all the things on my website, if you I do not know if you looked at my website. You might want to do that. I describe some of the things, you know, speech, speaking engagements, I have not had much lately. That is part of my problem. If it is a problem to where I am not as busy now, 12 years after I retired as it was three years after I retired, because nobody knows me anymore, I was a known item when I retired from the bench. IG: 53:59 Why do not you teach? BS: 54:01 I also taught at school. IG: 54:02 Really? BS: 54:04 I taught at ASU Sandra Day O'Connor School of Law. Taught for about five or six years. They had a very interesting civil practice. No, not civil practice, lawyering Theory and Practice class, which was basically a hands-on student. It was a lottery to get into those classes. They had to argue cases, try a case, and I was one of the faculty that took one of the little sections. And for about five or six years, I was a what is the word that you use for a professor? IG: 54:43 Adjunct. BS: 54:44 What? IG: 54:44 Adjunct. BS: 54:45 Adjunct at a new law school, which is now going out of business, Phoenix School of Law. I taught civil practice there for a few times, for a few semesters, while I was on the bench, because I was thinking of doing that when I retired being a law professor. But I did, fortunately, I did that on a full-time basis while still on the bench. I said, this is real work. I do not want to do this. The worst part of it was the grading. Was the creating the final exam and then grading it. I do not want to still hard. So, I just- IG: 55:18 Got a graduate assistant? BS: 55:19 No-no, I was the I was assisting the other professors in doing this. They were not going to assist me. IG: 55:29 No. Things, things run differently, actually, not differently. But, you know, you could employ a graduate assistant from the law department. BS: 55:38 Possibly. But I just, I like the I like the classroom. I like the interaction with the class. I am actually going down next this later this month, two young lawyers I know are teaching this class at ASU, and they invited me to be a guest for one of their nights, which I did last year. It is fun. I enjoy tremendously interacting with young lawyers. I enjoy interacting when a judge, when a new judge, is appointed to my bench, if I happen to have some connection, maybe through a friend or whatever, I try to reach out and say, here is some tips and whatever, I enjoy that. IG: 56:19 Have you considered speaking at Binghamton? I mean, there is no law school, but there is a pre law program. BS: 56:24 I have not considered it, but- IG: 56:24 You have not considered it. BS: 56:24 Well, it is a long trip. IG: 56:27 It is a long trip. BS: 56:33 I do. I go back. I went back to reunion on three, four years ago. I was there in 2008 which is when I got the Distinguished Alumni Award. So, I went back for that, and I went back once or twice after that, both times saying studying at my friend Tony D Aristotle's house on Carroll Street Downtown Binghamton, right next to the Italian American club. You know what that is? IG: 56:56 Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah. BS: 56:58 It has got this old house is over 100 years old. It is great. IG: 57:03 You promised to tell me about- BS: 57:06 My first date. People actually asked me to tell this story. My wife hates it every now, but last couple times, tell them how we had our first date. Okay, I am in my second year in law school in Brooklyn, New York, at St John's University. And a friend of mine from Harpur, a teammate named Roy Tompowski. He may have run across him. He is a pretty active alum. He is an accountant. Lives in Westchester, and Roy calls me, I want to be disparaging, because I am on the record, and says I got a girl for you. All right, Roy, you know what-what is the story? Well, she is at NYU uptown. She is a junior, she is very pretty, and she is very smart, and she is from Connecticut, okay, I will give her a call. So, I-I call once, and I do not roommate answers call another time, another time, and finally, we make this date for Friday night. What I find out later is that she had a boyfriend that she goes out with on Saturday nights, but she is trying to break up with him. So, she tells Roy at a party that she went to camp, the same camp Roy went to, that is the connection. And she was at a party of all the camp guys, and she went up to Roy, and she said, you know, you have a guy for me. So, Roy says, Yeah, but he may be too short for you peanuts anyway. So, she has worried about that. That is what she knows. So, we finally make this day for Friday night. And I figured I am living in Brooklyn. I had this new TR four that I got when I graduated. Sometimes I got somewhere along the way, and she is up in the Bronx, you know, the city at all, New York City. Okay, good. So I am in Brooklyn, Atlantic Avenue area by downtown Brooklyn. She is up upper she is right by, well, she is NYU uptown, okay, which is where the Hall of Fame was, Fordham Road, and about 200 and something street go up the West Side Highway. So, I decide to plan this evening for this first date for this hick from Connecticut. So, I decide the theme will be, I am going to show her how real New Yorkers live. So, I took up there, pick her up. I do not you know. First Date never met her, and the first stop was the Upper West Side to the Improv, okay, which was just opening at the time year or two. We do not remember what act we saw, but we think it was probably somebody like, was not Robin Williams, but it was Steve. What is his name? Could have been. Somebody? No, no, it was another guy. Used to be a school teacher in New York. Anyway, I have seen 1000 times. Cannot remember his name. He has been on Broadway a lot in the Wasserstein plays wrong. I cannot remember his name. Anyway, we do not remember what we saw. That was the first stop to about 10ish or so, and then I the next stop, I do not tell her, is to go from the Upper West Side down to the lower east side to catch this delicatessen. Okay, we are really, real New Yorkers. Hang out. So, we are driving down. We are making first date kind of conversation. What is your favorite color, that kind of stuff? Who is your favorite singer? What do you know, all that garbage? So, we drive, I drive, and I park, and she does not say anything. We go into cats' you ever been to cats? BS: 1:00:50 It is cavernous. It is huge, and you have a choice when you go in. You can either go to the left for waiter service, or you go to the right for counter service. Waiter service, a little more expensive. I am a poor law student. I cannot afford the waiter service. I tell her I would love to have a pastrami on rye, but I cannot afford that. So, I have what New York is called two with which are two hot dogs [inaudible] and sauerkraut. For those who are not initiated, she announces that she does not really like this kind of food. It is almost like Annie Hall. She does not really like this food, so she orders a turkey on rye. I go get my two hot dogs with we continue our small talk and in cats as you get this little ticket that you, they punch as to how much you owe, we are standing on line now to pay. We are about three or four deep, and at the cash register there is this older guy, probably 30 years younger than I am now, but an older guy, little bit of a palsy, a little bit of shaking, and he is obviously an owner. He is looking around making sure nobody is stealing any silverware, that kind of a look. So, we are getting closer and closer, and then we get about one removed, and this old guy says, "Hi Willa." She goes, "Hi, Benny." What is going on here? So, Benny, turns out he is a minority owner of Katz's delicatessen. The majority owner is her uncle, Willa's uncle, Lenny, who is her mother's brother, Willa is named after William Katz, her maternal grandfather, who pre deceased her. She is named Willa because her mother wanted to name her after her father. So, she is named after the founder of Katz's delicatessen. This is her family. IG: 1:00:50 Yes. IG: 1:02:40 And she did not tell you. IG: 1:02:41 What does your wife do? Did she continue working in a bank? BS: 1:02:41 No, she-she, dropped out of, I think she dropped out of graduate. I do not think she ever got her graduate degree. Children were born. We moved out here. She started working for me when I was in practice, and kind of like doing my books and stuff, not doing any reception in and then when I got appointed to the bank, she was without a job, so then she went to work for a friend of ours. Was a lawyer, kind of running his office. And then I think he retired, and then she basically stopped working in that kind of a situation. She does a lot of charitable work. Now she has got five grandkids, and all that back is not great. BS: 1:02:41 Never said a word, and Benny comped us. We did not pay. So, I am going, I could have a pastrami sandwich. And after we got married, we were still living in New York for those first three years. We used to get care packages from Katz. You cannot believe the pounds of roast beef that we would get hot dogs like an electrical wire. We did not pay for it. So that is my first date story I submit to you. It is one of the best first date stories you will ever hear. So, she never told me. She never she cut she was from Connecticut. She did not really, she said, this looks familiar. She knew it when she walked in there. But driving up, she never said anything, and certainly did not say anything when she walked in the Annie Hall thing, if you remember Annie Hall, Woody Allen in a deli with what is her name, Diane Keaton, and she orders like a roast beef on white with butter, and he goes, shiska. Was not quite like that, because she is not a shiska; so, but my wife, but she does not like this food. IG: 1:04:47 Well, she is beautiful. I you know, let us think about wrapping up this conversation. But you know, the final question that I ask. What lessons do you did you learn from the-the- this time in your life, that Harpur College? BS: 1:05:11 Lessons that I learned, the important importance of friendship, I made really good friends that I am so many. Some of them, I am still friendly with that. I am still the importance of having that warmth in your life, that support in your life, people who care about you, people that you care about. It was really a very nurturing place. In fact, when people graduate like Mickey Greenberg. You must know Mickey. Everybody knows Mickey well. One of me is very close friend of mine. We were teammates together. He was a great basketball player. He has died in the wool Brooklyn, New York. His parents were there. He lives in Binghamton. Since he graduated. He it is the womb. It was considered the womb, but there is that nurturing sense of the place that I carry with me, and I look back so fondly on, what did I learn? I mean, I learned what anybody does who becomes more worldly wise and on his own or her own, without parents constantly saying, do your homework, that kind of thing. You got to figure things out for yourself. But that is true in any that is true in any university, but in particular in Binghamton, I am not sure it was a learning thing as much as an experience of the warmth and the nurture and of the surroundings of the people that you were there with. It was an amazing experience for me. IG: 1:06:41 Well, thank you very much for this amazing interview. Been very wonderful talking to you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Barry Schneider Subject The topic of the resource Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schneider, Barry ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Recipient of Distinguished Alumnus Award. Principal of Schneider Mediation. Avid athlete at Harpur College. (His nickname at Harpur was “Peanuts.”) Mediation judge in Phoenix. He (Ret.) served on the Maricopa County Superior Court for 21 years, from 1986 to 2007. He first practiced in New York City and moved to Phoenix in 1971. He was an associate at Langerman, Begam, Lewis, Leonard & Marks until 1977, when he formed the partnership Rosen & Schneider, Ltd. He has a strong background in Arizona civil litigation from the perspective of both a judge and a civil trial attorney. While on the bench, he served on the Criminal Department, in addition to serving as Presiding Civil Department Judge and Presiding Family Law Judge. His 18-month tenure on the Arizona Supreme Court’s Committee on Jury Reform led to groundbreaking changes in the rules and practice of jury trials in Arizona. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Barry Schneider.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-03-11 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 66:48 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2d5d5d1acd340ee7e11f95270b9db9c8.jpg dc7b81eee20f7051c4c7e6cccea9ae34 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/599cc92d10398b3c283450517bb3efb0.mp3 f4fd3d4f02c80656886f78cda14f058a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-04-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Belva Davis, 1932- Language English Biographical Text Belva Davis is an award winning journalist who has covered politics for over forty years. She has anchored three major network affiliates CBS, NBC and PBS. This includes a political affairs program on KQED-San Francisco that is one the most watched public stations in America. In 2008, Belva Davis was inducted into the National Association of Black Journalists Hall of Fame. She has received eight regional Emmys for reporting on a variety of topics including the AIDS Epidemic, Castro's Cuba, Bready Cancer and Learning Disabilities. She was the first African American woman on the West Coast and was profiled in the NEWSEUM, the world's first interactive museum of news. Davis is the author of the book <em>Never in My Wildest Dreams: A Black Woman's Life in Journalism</em>. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;African American Women; Prejudice; Civil Rights; Women's Movement; Black Panthers; Second Class Citizens; Journalism; Affirmative Action&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:2,&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">African American Women; Prejudice; Civil Rights; Women's Movement; Black Panthers; Second Class Citizens; Journalism; Affirmative Action</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 186:31 Subject LCSH Women television journalists--United States; Radio journalists--United States; Davis, Belva, 1932--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Belva Davis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Davis, Belva, 1932- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Women television journalists--United States; Radio journalists--United States; Davis, Belva, 1932--Interviews Description An account of the resource Belva Davis is a television and radio journalist. Davis has won eight Emmy Awards, and she has been recognized for her hard work by major groups such as the American Women in Radio and Television and the National Association of Black Journalists. Belva Davis is an award winning journalist who has covered politics for over forty years. She has anchored three major network affiliates CBS, NBC and PBS. This includes a political affairs program on KQED-San Francisco that is one the most watched public stations in America. In 2008, Belva Davis was inducted into the National Association of Black Journalists Hall of Fame. She has received eight regional Emmys for reporting on a variety of topics including the AIDS Epidemic, Castro's Cuba, Bready Cancer and Learning Disabilities. She was the first African American woman on the West Coast and was profiled in the NEWSEUM, the world's first interactive museum of news. Davis is the author of the book <em>Never in My Wildest Dreams: A Black Woman's Life in Journalism</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-04-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.42a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.42b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 186:31 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3dc5a8e44b25942ae612f0bb7d09ef0f.jpg 46cad48db578547499c30b4a2271bd27 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/73caefc69f61acfde0eff5fa0888b5c2.mp3 9dfb83bd4edb322a0081fed67797dd6c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-02-21 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bernardine Dohrn Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Bernardine Rae Dohrn is a former leader of the Weather Underground, a group known for bombings on the United States Capitol. Dohrn has a Bachelor's degree in Political Science and a Juris Doctorate from the University of Chicago. Currently, she is a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Bernardine Rae Dohrn is a former leader of the Weather Underground, a group known for bombings on the United States Capitol. Dohrn has a Bachelor's degree in Political Science and a Juris Doctorate from the University of Chicago. Currently, she is a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;College; Race Issues; Women's Issues; The War on Poverty; Non-Violence; Chicago; Red Lining; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; The Other America; Michael Harrington; Gay Rights; Patriotism; Students for a Democratic Society; Kent State; Chicago Eight.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">College; Race Issues; Women's Issues; The War on Poverty; Non-Violence; Chicago; Red Lining; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; The Other America; Michael Harrington; Gay Rights; Patriotism; Students for a Democratic Society; Kent State; Chicago Eight.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 236:57 Subject LCSH Weather Underground Organization; College teachers; Dohrn, Bernardine--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bernardine Rae Dohrn Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dohrn, Bernardine ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Weather Underground Organization; College teachers; Dohrn, Bernardine--Interviews Description An account of the resource Bernardine Rae Dohrn is a former leader of the Weather Underground, a group known for bombings on the United States Capitol. Dohrn has a Bachelor's degree in Political Science and a J.D. from the University of Chicago. Currently, she is a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-02-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.8a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.8b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 236:57 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7789437e35860a32553a8052475dfea7.jpg a048daeb5ca1622e16d2e74bbfac6251 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f72c72f36185a93e669ac2af9a0a00a7.mp3 0cb803c04d6bc43ca16c80a8b9d072f0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bernice Resnick Sandler Date of Interview 2010-10-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 191:46 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Bernice Sandler is an educator, consultant, and women's rights activist, best known for being instrumental in the creation of Title IX. She has received numerous awards and honors for her work on women’s rights and was inducted into the Maryland Women's Hall of Fame And the National Women's Hall of Fame. Dr. Sandler currently acts as a Senior Scholar at the Women’s Research and Education Institute in Washington, DC Sandler received her Master's degree of Clinical and School Psychology from the City College of New York and her Ed.D. from the University of Maryland in Counseling and Personnel Services.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Bernice Sandler is an educator, consultant, and women's rights activist, best known for being instrumental in the creation of Title IX. She has received numerous awards and honors for her work on women’s rights and was inducted into the Maryland Women's Hall of Fame And the National Women's Hall of Fame. Dr. Sandler currently acts as a Senior Scholar at the Women’s Research and Education Institute in Washington, DC Sandler received her Master's degree of Clinical and School Psychology from the City College of New York and her Ed.D. from the University of Maryland in Counseling and Personnel Services.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Military women; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Woodstock; Generation gap; Sexism; Attica prison riot; Women's Rights Movement; Baby boom generation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Military women; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Woodstock; Generation gap; Sexism; Attica prison riot; Women's Rights Movement; Baby boom generation.</span> Subject LCSH Women's rights—United States; Human rights workers; United States.--Education Amendments of 1972.--Title IX; Sandler, Bernice Resnick--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Bernice Sandler Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 12 October 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two. I got two of these. And this is my better one. BS (00:00:09): Okay. SM (00:00:11): I have to check on them to make sure the better- BS (00:00:13): They should be in different places when you get one. SM (00:00:14): Yep. BS (00:00:14): Because- SM (00:00:18): I think the last 50 I have made two copies. BS (00:00:20): Two copies, yeah. Well, that is a good start, but you have got to get them digitalized. Okay. SM (00:00:26): Here we go. My first question is, could you tell me a little bit about your growing up years? Who were your role models? Did you have female role models when you were a lot younger? Or men who you admired, who treated women properly when you were younger? Like your high school years and- BS (00:00:49): Yeah. I grew up during the depression. I was a young child during the depression, so there was not a lot of money. My mother and her whole family are very strong people. I mean, people who know me are always surprised when I say I was known in the extended family of my mother's as the shy, quiet, passive one. SM (00:01:10): Oh wow. BS (00:01:11): And grew up with that image, which I did not get rid of until by the end of my undergraduate education. I was beginning to think maybe that was not what I was, but comparatively that is what I was. So there were lots of strong women and strong men, and my mother was a good role model. She did some work during the depression, but was always ambivalent about work because you only worked if your husband did not have enough money. And that was true during the depression. There was not enough money. So she was ambivalent about working, but she liked working. And she had worked before she was married. And one day when she was older, she really threw me a loop. We were talking about, I do not know what, and she said if she had to do it over, she would have been a stockbroker. And I was just so surprised. And she was a very bright woman, one of the first in her family to finish high school. But my parents knew I was going to college before I did. I knew I was going to college before I knew what high school was. I mean, I was identified as a very bright child and sometimes in families, one kid's the bright kid, one kid's a pretty kid. SM (00:02:22): And that is in Brooklyn? BS (00:02:24): This is in Brooklyn? Flatbush, New York. SM (00:02:26): Yeah. BS (00:02:27): Yeah. Fairly good school systems. And went to a very good high school, Erasmus Hall High School, which in those days was producing one of the highest amounts of PhDs from high schools other than Bronx High School of Science, and I think in Brooklyn Tech. So it was a really good school academically. So I mean, I just knew I was going to college. This was not an option. And I finished high school at 16 and wanted to work, and my mother said, "No, you are going to college." SM (00:02:52): That is early. BS (00:02:54): And yeah, well, they did that in New York. If you were smart, they would skip. I mean, scads of people skipped that were my age when I graduated. You skipped where there were rapid classes. You could take rapid advanced classes and whatnot. My father was always very respectful towards women. It was a different time though, and he certainly did not do any of the housework or help in any substantial ways. But he was certainly respectful of women. He was not power driven in his relationships with women. SM (00:03:28): Did your teachers treat you differently than they treated the male students? Because in other words, during that period in the forties and (19)50s and early (19)60s, a lot of women became teachers and they were secretaries and librarians. BS (00:03:46): Yes, I was a secretary after I had my master's degree. I had a master's degree in clinical psychology and worked as a secretary twice. SM (00:03:57): But were there people that did not seem... You have been very outspoken about that, that men were really pushed and women were not in those times? BS (00:04:10): Absolutely. SM (00:04:11): Particularly after World War II. BS (00:04:15): Yeah. Let me just go back. SM (00:04:19): I would just check these. You can go ahead- BS (00:04:19): If it is working. I would hate to do the whole interview with- SM (00:04:24): Well, I got two of them. That is helpful too. BS (00:04:30): Yeah. We did not have a word for discrimination or differential treatment. This is just the way it was. It is only as an adult as we have developed the use of the word sex discrimination that I and lots of women look back and say, "oh my God, I never noticed that." For example, there were three things I wanted to do as a child in school, and I never got to do them. And one was I wanted to be the crossing guard, only in my school- SM (00:04:56): Oh yeah. BS (00:04:57): Only boys could be the crossing guards. And what I did not realize is I ran for a few years before my knees gave out is one of the first things I bought was a red sash for night running, which I did not really need, but it is what future forcing guards wore. Not when I was wanting to be one, but that is what they wore like now. And I bought this fashion and I loved wearing it when I ran. And I did not make that connection. SM (00:05:23): Now was this the mid (19)50s or late (19)50s? BS (00:05:25): I was running in the (19)70s. SM (00:05:27): Okay. BS (00:05:28): Yeah. I also wanted to run the slide projector. This was the big audiovisual technology of the day. And only boys were allowed to do it. And one of the- SM (00:05:39): But the school would only allow boys to do it? BS (00:05:41): The teachers would only call on boys to do it because they are smarter with mechanical things. I guess just boys did it. I mean, you did not ask. This is the way life was. SM (00:05:49): Right. BS (00:05:51): It is like the sun is shining. You do not say, "why is the sun shining?" It just is kind of thing. And again, I did something and I did not realize it. One of the first things I did when I started making money was buying my own slide projector and screen. And the third one is the boys. This is in the time of inkwells, and not everybody will know what an inkwell is, but it is before ball point pens and your desk got a little hole in it. And this little tiny- SM (00:06:18): I remember that. BS (00:06:19): Inkwell fit in there, and someone had to put ink in the inkwell for you. And only boys could do that. They could get to go to the basement of the school, which was off limits. I mean, I never saw the basement in that school. Only boys got to do it. They would go downstairs. They would fill a big bottle up with ink, and then they would pour the ink into everybody's inkwell. And I remember I wanted to do that. I wanted to see what the basement looked like. And I knew I could pour as well as anybody else. But you had no word for it. So this is the way it is. SM (00:06:49): And this is the way... When you are talking about the boomer generation, those born from 1946 to 1964, in elementary school, they all had that- BS (00:07:01): They had similar experiences. SM (00:07:03): Mm-hmm. BS (00:07:04): They had similar experiences. My daughter, this would have been in the early (19)60s in Ann Arbor, was in first grade and was bored stiff because she had already learned to read. And I complained to the teacher. I said, "She is really coming home and saying she is bored." And the teacher says, "What are you worried about? She is only going to get married." So these are coming. And if you do not have a word for it, you do not say that is discrimination against girls. You say that is a stupid teacher. Even if she is married, you still want her to learn and be intelligent. So you have no word for it until the women's movement begins in the early (19)60s. But I had not noticed that, and this would have been in the early (19)60s, just as the women's movement is beginning. So these things happened to girls. When I went to school during the World War II in high school, everybody had to take a war course. Some sort of course related to the war. Because it is a big war. And you probably will be working after high school or college. Who knows if the war will be finished. And so I got to take physics. Otherwise, I never would have taken physics. Now, I did not understand very much of a course. And the teacher did not teach it very well. All the girls got A's. I did not deserve an A. It is the only A that was ever undeserved. But I got an A. I did not understand most of it except about leathers, which I found interesting. But we were such outsiders in the class that the teacher treated us differently. The teacher, the guy, did not expect us to know physics. SM (00:08:45): Is not it interesting? This is a question later on, but I will say it now. But when you think of the 1950s and being in elementary school, and then the front edge boomer started junior high school in 1959 and 1960, that was when they started seventh grade. Here you have this situation that women have been kind of not treated properly or discriminating in the areas of science, math, and technology. Yet most of the teachers that were in elementary school, I do not ever remember a male teacher. I do not know but our whole elementary school had nothing but female teacher. BS (00:09:31): We had one male science teacher. When you think of the message that this gives to boys and girls, only boys, males, do science. In high school, some of the science and math teachers were in economics. There were not as many women, but there were a good number of women. It was the depression ending. And many men went into teaching, at least in New York City because it was a well-paying job if you could get one. And you got tenure. You know, did not get fired so fast. So you had a lot of very bright people who were teaching. And you had more men probably at that time because of the depression. I have not thought of that to just now, but that makes sense. And I did have some brilliant teachers. I mean, I knew they were brilliant because they was so much smarter than anybody else I had ever met in my life. SM (00:10:15): What about the female teachers of the 1950s? I remember I went to Utica. I lived in Utica. I remember Cortland State was sending out teachers galore. BS (00:10:25): Yeah. SM (00:10:26): SUNY Cortland. BS (00:10:27): It was a teachers college. SM (00:10:27): Yeah, it is a teacher's college. They were sending them out. And I can remember I went to partner school in Cortland for a little while. And it was all females. No men. But the men were in the administration. BS (00:10:38): Yes. Yeah. SM (00:10:38): Dr. Silverman ran the school. But I found it interesting where elementary school female teachers told to not inspire their female students here- BS (00:10:48): No-no-no. You did not have to tell anybody. SM (00:10:50): Okay. BS (00:10:51): You did not have to tell anybody. Everybody knows girls grow up to be married and they had better be married or they will have a terrible life. They will be spinsters. And the best thing is marry somebody who makes a good living. SM (00:11:03): Right. BS (00:11:03): Because one, you do not have to work. Because you might lose your husband through divorce or death and have to work. But nobody talks about that. SM (00:11:10): Right. BS (00:11:12): But this is what is in the air. This is what you breathe. You go to the movies and that is what you see with the exception of Catharine Hepburn. And every young girl like me growing up adored Catharine Hepburn. We do not know what and we did not realize why, but she was doing interesting stuff. We could go back and see those pictures. There is a good deal of ambivalence in her roles. And she tries to make her husband happy by cooking. And she does not do that and whatnot. So you could see she was damaged because she has been working. She does not even know how to cook. I mean, there is a very mixed message that you get there. SM (00:11:48): You received your PhD at the University of Maryland in 1969. BS (00:11:53): Yeah. It is an EdD. SM (00:11:54): Yeah. BS (00:11:54): Not a PhD. SM (00:11:55): What were the years you were an undergrad at Brooklyn College and then in your master's program at CUNY? BS (00:12:03): Yeah. SM (00:12:03): What were they like with respect to women in society and the inequities of women that may have been faced after World War II? What was it like even at Maryland in 1969? BS (00:12:14): Well, there were lots of things that happened. I know a lot about Maryland because I was there and I got elected to the Alumni Hall of Fame a few months ago. SM (00:12:25): Congratulations. I saw that back. BS (00:12:28): Yes. And I did two classes yesterday for them. And so I have done a lot of thinking and reminded myself of some of the experiences. So I will start with the University of Maryland. Because this is my doctoral works. And this is most recent from either 1964 or 1965. I am not sure when I started and I finished in 1969. The first thing that happened is I applied for admissions to the psych department because that is my real field that I started with. And I cannot get to talk to any professor. Nobody will talk to me at all. And this is a small department. I cannot get anybody to talk. So I do not know what is going on. It is very unusual, I think, because usually you can call and say, "Can I speak to one of the professors to ask about the program and what it is like?" Secretaries would not let me do that. Fortunately, I go to a party and the head of the admissions committee is there. So we now have something in common. And I start to talk to him. I said, "I have been applying and I have not been able to talk to anybody." And he explains it. He says, " well, we do not take too many women, especially older women." I am in my thirties, my late thirties at this point. And so again, I think this is weird. You do not have a name for it. You do not have a name. You do not see a pattern. Just what are they saying there? So I have this big conversation about him and I asked him who his best students were? Because I thought this out earlier. And he says, "the veterans." I said, "Well, I am like the veterans. I have been out for a while taking care of my kids. And I am highly motivated just like the veterans." So I sell him essentially, and he lets me in. Okay. He was right. They do not have too many women. There were about 20 men and about five women in that accepted group. So that is the first thing that happens. Second thing that happens is I do not like this department. Because it is mostly animal psychology. The few women that I know that are there in that department, we joke. I remember this is we are standing in the hallway near the lady's room and one of us, I do not remember who says, "One day we are going to come to this building and the lady's room is going to be gone." That is a joke. Now, we did not have a name for what we were sensing. We were sensing, and we did not talk about experiences, but we just knew that this place was not good on women. So I transferred over to the psych department, to the counseling department, which is a much more hospitable place to women. At least half the students are women. And they do not have any trouble accepting me at all, except a number of things happened. My advisor says in class, he says, "Women should not be professionals." Now he is teaching graduate courses. SM (00:15:17): What year is this? BS (00:15:18): This would have been 1966. SM (00:15:19): Unbelievable. BS (00:15:19): 1965. Not unbelievable. Not unbelievable. SM (00:15:24): Well, I know. But I know it was happening with all the movements at that time. BS (00:15:31): And people realize that something is wrong. Well, he is realizing there is something wrong with the movements because women should not be professionals. He says this in a class half full of women who are going there for their master's or doctoral degrees. Do you think anybody challenged him? Of course not. Somebody said, "well, why not?" And he said, "Because doctors would be able to put their profession first and their family second." And any other thing that women would be in, they would put their family first and therefore they should not be professionals. SM (00:16:03): It is kind of like what Phyllis Schack was thinking, yeah. BS (00:16:05): Yeah, okay. But he was in the department. He has got a doctorate. He went to Case Western Reserve, which is a good school. He has got his credential and he says things like that. So that is not so good. I decided conflict, he was my advisor. So I have to go to him with a thesis subject and ask if I can develop a plan to do a thesis on my subject. So I raised the subject. I am thinking young women make vocational decisions later than young men, partly because I do not know if this is still true. It was true then partly because they did not know if they would get married and where they would be and what they would be doing. So they push those, maybe I will get married next week. And people get married in college, whatever. And even in high school in those days. And so I thought, and I say, "I would really like to do some work in this area." And I tell him what I am interested in. And he looks at me with a shocked, stunned expression. And he says, "research on women. That is not real research. No. Find another topic." End of conversation. Now that is pretty harsh. Did I call it discrimination? No. I paid him. Nutty guy. I did not even make the connection between the two remarks about women should not be professionals. So that happened. And then I get my degree, and I am teaching. I have been teaching in the department for a while, and the department has a big expansion. And they do not even consider me. And they are hiring new doctoral people who just got their doctorate when I did, but they do not even think of it. So I go and I ask one of the professors I am friendly with and I say, "Hey, you know what? What is going on here? How come they did not even think of me?" And I know I am a good teacher and all of that. And he says and he meant it as a nice, I mean, he was not angry or sarcastic. And he says, "Let us face it, Money. You come on too strong for a woman." Too strong for a woman. I go home and I cry. Never should have participated in my classes, never should have opened my mouth. And then husband was really very good on this issue. And he said, "Are there strong men in the department?" I said, "Yeah, all the guys are strong." He said, "Then it is not you. It is discrimination." SM (00:18:32): Wow. BS (00:18:32): Discrimination. I am not even sure I believe this, but I was fortunate. I had two more bad experiences within the next two or three months. One was, let me finish this part. Okay, we can go back. One was, I went to an interview for a research position, which I was well qualified for. And the guy spent the entire hour not talking about my qualifications or what I would be doing, but why he did not want to hire women with children. And I am saying, "This is logical." I am saying, "But my kids are in high school." He said, "Yeah, but women want to stay home when their kids are sick." I said, "I have healthy kids. I do not stay home if they have a cold." I do not stay home for that. And the whole interview was around this. So well, I saw this was something wrong. At least it did not look logical. And then I had another experience where I went to an employment agency and the guy looks at my application, he says, "Oh, you are not a professional. You are a housewife who went back to school." This was the doctorate kind of thing. So the three things really got me thinking. And at that point I got interested, but I had never put all those other things together. There was another incident at Maryland, which I thought of recently. Oh, because I was talking to them and I was relating it, and I cannot remember, maybe it will come to me. But there was a third incident on women's issues. Well, there were no women in the department but one. And years later, I realized they would have one woman come for two years or three years, would not give her a tenure and she would leave. She would leave if you do not get tenure, then they would hire another woman. So the other thing, this was interesting, and I did not figure this out so much later, is the graduating class for the doctorate had about five men, and I think six women. Very close, something like that. And all of the men got offers from all over the country to teach in various places. And I cannot figure this out for anything. So how did people know that this guy is graduating? Well now when I think about it, I know what happened. Either the guy went to one of the professors and said, "Do you know of any job openings? I am looking, anyone I should write to or contact?" Or professor heard of a job and said, "Hey, Jim-" SM (00:21:04): Recommended him. BS (00:21:06): "I got a job for you. You got to call this guy right away." So another thing happened, and I mean, I had never seen the pattern. This is what is so interesting. SM (00:21:13): Everything is coming together. BS (00:21:16): If you do not have a word for it, each thing is an individual experience. There is a really nice fellowship that they give in this department for people who want to teach. And that is what I want to do is be a college professor. So I will apply for it and I do not get it. So I give it to one of the guys I know, and I know enough about graduate school where I know if you do not get some of the goodies, you better ask because they may not want you to get a degree. And if that is where I am, then I need to know this now rather than spending all my time and money on it. So I ask again, one of the professors that I like, and I say, "I am just curious why it went to Gary rather than to me." It is like, do I do something wrong or whatever, however I put it. And he says, "Oh, no. No." He says, "We did give it to Gary because he is married" and I stupidly say, "I am married too." I did not even get the message. The message is that Gary supports a wife and therefore needs this money. I am married, so therefore I do not need it. This is the reasoning that is going on. Now, if they were doing it on the basis of need, and I did not figure this out till much later. Once they to do it on the basis of need, then they should ask. There is nothing in the grant criteria that says put in something about whether you need the money and how much money you make and whatnot. So they do not know how much money my husband makes or whether we owe money or are supporting older parent. They have no idea. And similarly with Gary, they do not know whether his wife even works or if he needs the money. Maybe he came from a rich family. I mean, I do not know. But they never asked. But that was the unridden criteria. SM (00:22:52): The assumptions. BS (00:22:53): The assumptions, yeah. Yeah. So this is pervasive. This is throughout the whole culture. It is there and nobody is noticing it. When Betty Ford's book comes out, she is not talking about discrimination incidentally, she is talking about unhappy middle-class housewife housewives. And she was absolutely right to identify that group. And she never mentions the word discrimination in her book. I went back and reread it to find out. But what she does is she gives women permission to complain about the state of being a woman, that being a housewife is not so fulfilling as the myth was. And so that becomes very important to a lot of people. Now she is not the beginning of the women's movement. Women's movement begins much earlier. And I do not know if President Kennedy appointed a commission on women in 1960. SM (00:23:46): And I know you were involved with Lyn and Johnson's and is- BS (00:23:51): I am not involved with that commission. SM (00:23:54): But not yet. But you were on the- BS (00:23:57): Later I was on John Ford and Carter. That is the National Advisory Council on Women's Educational Programs. That is later. But this early stuff, when things happen like this to you, you do not have a word and you do not make connections. You do not say, "Ah, this is just what happened before." Some people do make the connection, and some of those are very angry people. Some of them are bitter. Some of them have worked alongside men and seen incompetence. People go up ahead of them and they at least see the discrimination. But the other thing that has struck me, and this is with the group of people you are talking about. The younger people is because you look at women in college now. They do not see any discrimination. All the problems are solved, and they get out into the work world and they are in their thirties or forties. They begin to notice the guys they went to school with are doing a lot better than they are. Even if they do not have any children. The guys tend to be doing better. I mean, the women are still not making the money, but they do not notice this when they are in college. And why do not they notice it in college? Because this is the last meritocracy they will be in. This is the last bastion of equality for girls. This is the closest for girls and young women school. This is the closest they will ever come to equality now. It is all downhill when they leave. Now they do not believe this and they have not heard it that way. And maybe someday, if I get the idea up, I will write an article about this, but college is a meritocracy. You write a good paper. If you are an A student, you may get a B if the teacher's not as fair as you think, but she is not going to give you an F or a D. And similar, if you are a D student, they are not going to give you an A. SM (00:25:48): You should have seen the front page of the Philadelphia Inquirer this two or three days ago. On Sunday's paper, it was about the fact that there are more female students than male students in college. And they went to 20 different schools in the Philadelphia area ranging from Lincoln University, which is an African American school. BS (00:26:06): I know that. SM (00:26:06): Which has very few, I think it is almost 70 percent women. And I know Delaware, they were really at the University of Delaware and they were at Penn and other schools. And it is like men are fewer than women. And of course a lot of men go to the military or choose vocational. But it is now becoming a concern to undergraduate universities because the women are saying, "If there is too many women at this school, I do not want to go to that school because I want to go to a school where there are more men." BS (00:26:37): Maybe. If they notice. They do not always know. They do not always know. SM (00:26:37): Yeah. And then guys would love to be in all kinds of- BS (00:26:37): That is right. They do not mind. SM (00:26:42): Yeah. But now the universities are worried that white men or that men are going to be- BS (00:26:58): Okay. Let me tell you what the story is. Because the American Council on Education has been following this. What is going on with guys that they are not going to college? It is not true for upper class or middle-class boys. Those young men are going to college and they are doing well in college. Many of them. And that is not where the problem is. The problem is primarily with poor working people and people of color. Those are the ones where the disparities between men and women are much greater. What are the reasons for this? Not sure. Not sure. One of them, one theory is that they can get better paying jobs after college. They do not need to go to college. There are good jobs in construction before the recession. There are good jobs in construction and in factories which pay well, and therefore they do not need it. Other possibilities, our culture is such that boys end up as a group with less better. That is not the word, less better. With less study skills. They are study skills like handing in your homework and doing it on time. Girls have much better study skills. That is why they get higher grades. SM (00:28:14): Yeah. I kind of broke it down here that, what was it like? I asked this to other people. Susan Brown Miller and others too. It is just not so much in higher education as just in society as a whole. When you look at that period, 1946 to 1960, I think you have described it perfectly. BS (00:28:34): Yeah. It is there and nobody notices it. SM (00:28:34): And then you get the 1961, Kennedy comes in. Then you get the 1961 to 1970. You have got the (19)60s, what was it? And then you got the 1971 to 1980 before Reagan comes in. And a lot of people say, "Well, some people told me there was more happening in the (19)70s than there was in the (19)60s." BS (00:28:51): There was a lot happening during that time. SM (00:28:54): So those two decades, where were boomer women? BS (00:28:58): The (19)60s, first of all, you have women working during World War II. Middle poor women have always worked incidentally. And when people say women should stay home and take care of their kids, they are not talking about poor women. They are talking about middle class women. But during World War II, middle class white women are working. You need them. You need them in the workforce. You really do not need these campaigns that they talk about, Rosie the Riveter kind of thing. Those women, they are quite happy to work. They are husbands are away or their boyfriends are away. It is adventuresome to work. You have more independence. You make money. So you do not have any trouble recruiting these women to work. And they are willing to do men's jobs, which always happens in the war. They do men's jobs. So that is what is happening in World War II. World War II ends. A lot of women are pushed out. The veterans are coming. They get tenure in a job. If they were working before the war, they get tenure for the whole war. So they have more tenure, more experience, more seniority. Tenure is not the right word. SM (00:30:03): What about the G.I. Bill though? The G.I. Bill was for World War II. Where were the women in the G.I. Bill? BS (00:30:09): Well, it covered women who were in the war, but that was a small quota. You did not have that many women, but those women got the G.I. Bill as well. But what happens with the G.I. Bill is you are keeping a lot of women out of college because you are letting all these guys in and there is a flood of them. People are putting beds and gymnasiums to let these guys in. I mean, they deserve it. They have fought in the war, and you should let them in. But at the same time, you are not going to have a drop of women go into colleges, and nobody cares about that. I remember trying to transfer from Brooklyn College to another college. My folks had made enough money during the war and they could afford to send me to a state college. And so a friend of mine had the same idea too. We both wanted to get away from home. We were teenagers, and so we applied to a whole bunch of state colleges. We only got applications from two. All the others said, "due to the influx of the G. I.'s, we do not accept transfer students anymore." And they also accepted lesser admissions. SM (00:31:06): Wow. BS (00:31:06): Yeah. I just realized that recently. Again, I have been teaching a course. So I have been going for- SM (00:31:12): There is a brand-new book on the G.I. Bill. It just came up. BS (00:31:15): Yeah, I heard about it. Absolutely. SM (00:31:16): I bought it and I got to read it. BS (00:31:18): Absolutely great. It made a whole bunch of guys who would not go to college. It put them into the middle class. And we should be doing that again, I think. But we are not with the new G.I. Bill is not as good as that one was in terms of paying for housing allowances and money to live on and so forth and so on. But anyway, what is happening after World War II? Some of the women are pushed out. Some of them liked working and remained in the workforce. And this is what in one sense, the discontent that women feel comes from the middle class. Women who are at home and the middle-class women who are working because now they begin to see the discrimination. ...working because now they begin to see the discrimination, now when someone says, "We are just not going to promote you, because you are a woman, now they, at least, begin to see it. It is also the time of the civil rights movement and for the first time, I think, people ... Many people understand what has been going on with race. They do not understand everything but they begin to see it somewhat differently, and you hear stories of, "They do not even hire Negroes" or, "I applied for a job and they said we do not hire colored folk." It does not take too much of a leap, if you are in the workforce, "Yeah, they told me I was a woman and they would not hire me." There is a connection here somewhere. Just like you had abolition as an entry into suffrage for many women, the civil rights movement does this for a lot of women, as they begin to say, "What is going on? Wait, there is a connection here." SM (00:32:55): Yeah, because the... From all the readings that I have done and people that I have spoken to in the interview process is that the sexism that was rampant, not only in society but also within the movement, the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement. BS (00:33:10): And the civil rights movement. You have a lot of women [inaudible]. SM (00:33:13): Yeah. Even gay and lesbian movement, they told me that that is rampant. BS (00:33:18): Yeah. Yeah. The civil rights movement is the only one that is going on at that point, and it does push... There are a number of things that push the civil rights movement, and one of these young women who were [inaudible] women's movement, the women's movements, there is one group of these people who are very active participants in anti-Vietnam demonstrations and in terms of civil rights activism. That is one group. The other group is the dissatisfied people from Betty Friedan, reading Betty Friedan's book. SM (00:33:54): Right. [inaudible]. BS (00:33:56): That is another group. There is another whole group of people who are maybe professionals and/or working, not always professionals but they are seeing discrimination on the job and that is another group, and then there is a group of lawyers, very small, we are talking under 100 people, including later, Ruth Bader Ginsburg later, because she becomes a justice, I [inaudible] justice, she was there at the beginning, figuring out what cases to bring to the Supreme Court and change the laws. People who were interested in the laws and changing them are not quite the same people who were active in the civil rights movement. Now they may have been sympathetic, many of them were very sympathetic, but the activists who were down in the south, those are the younger women and some of them go back to law school, some of those women who started [inaudible], they go back to law school and they understand something about women's issues, and they are looking at things in these laws, and they are working on that. They are not always successful but they are working on it. Plus, there are some more members in the Congress, not a lot of women in the Congress but enough who will pass a law, who will push on a law to get a law changed or enacted, and that begins to make a difference. In the (19)70s, what you have is you have a bunch... You get the beginnings of some good Supreme Court decisions, some are not so good, but you begin to get more cases coming up in the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court does not have any theory... I mean, there is so few cases on women in the history that... I do not know the new laws but, first, you get 1963, the Equal Pay Act, which does not apply to administrators, executives or professionals. This is the first civil rights employment act, and it is only for equal pay. That is (19)63. (19)64 comes a great big Civil Rights Act happens and what happens? It is all for Blacks, except for the employment section, which says race, color, national origin, and religion. Okay? That is how the bill is introduced. Okay? The National Women's Party, which you may never have heard of [inaudible]. Okay. The National... This is the Equal Rights Amendment. The National Women's Rights Party comes right out of the women's party, National Women's Party. Their offices are here in Washington and they have an old pre-Civil War mansion [inaudible]. SM (00:36:30): Oh, wow. BS (00:36:30): Yeah. But Alice Paul, who heads that up, has been going to the Congress every year since 1923, and saying here is the equal rights amendment and would you introduce it? She never gets anybody to introduce it but she does get people who sponsor it. She sees VII of the Civil Rights Act, which says no discrimination on employment based on race, color, religion, national origin, and she sends a letter to every member of the Congress and, remember, this is before Xeroxes. You are talking 1963 probably, maybe (19)64. She sends saying, "White women and Christian women", and there is a little bit of racism here too, "Are not going to get hired. They do not have anyone to protect them." She says it better than I am saying it but, essentially, she is saying everybody is going to be protected in this bill except white women. Well, some of the women who were in the Congress, like Representative Martha Griffiths from Michigan, she realizes that what the National Women's Party is saying is absolutely right and she picks up on it, and she does. There is this thing where she says if an employment situation is all-white and a white woman wants to apply, they do not have to hire her, because she is not protected on the basis of race, color, religion, or national origin. But if an African American, I think she used the word Negro, at that point, we were still using [inaudible], "But if a Negro woman comes, she is protected. They cannot discriminate against her if she applies." But Howard Smith, senator from Virginia, who is shepherding this and doing stuff with the civil rights bill, he realized that... Are we okay? SM (00:38:14): Yeah. We are doing fine. BS (00:38:15): Okay. He realizes if he adds sex to this bill, nobody is going to vote for it, because, I mean, it is so silly to have something that is going to protect women in employment, that a lot of people will just say, "Ha-ha, we cannot have that happen" kind of thing, and so he, theoretically, he is the one who added sex and he admitted to Martha Griffiths, she says he told her years later that he put it in as a joke, because some people said maybe he really cared about women, because he always sponsored the Equal Rights Amendment. You have women in the Congress and you get sex discrimination into the employment bill, it exempts teachers, it exempts women faculty, and it exempts women students in the whole bill. It will only cover women, it will only cover in employment and teachers are not covered, anyone involved in education is not covered by VII of the civil rights act until much later. But this is the first major bill, you have two, Equal Rights Amendment and [inaudible]... Am I telling you more than you want to know? SM (00:39:29): Actually, no. This is good, because these are things that are happening when boomers are growing up, and so we are dealing with a lot of parents of the boomers, who you have been talking about, and the boomers... BS (00:39:41): Yeah. My kids knew what was going on. Yeah. SM (00:39:43): The boomers in the (19)50s, obviously, were seeing things either consciously or subconsciously between... BS (00:39:48): They are hearing things. SM (00:39:49): ...between father and mother over a lot of issues, whether it be to go to work or childcare or all the other things that... Not everybody stayed at home. A lot of perceptions are that they did. A lot of them did not. I knew neighbors who were librarians, teachers. BS (00:40:07): Yes. Middle class white women were beginning to work. SM (00:40:09): Secretaries at banks and things like that but a lot of them were living at home. BS (00:40:15): Yeah. A lot of them were living at home and a lot of people who went to work would justify it as I need to save money for my kids or I have a sick kid, so I have to work, or whatever. They had a reason. There were few that said, "I just would love being at work" because you are not supposed to like it that much. Some did say it. At any rate, in the (19)60s, you begin to get legislation and this one is important, because employment is important and the government does not do very much about it but people from inside the government and people outside the government are putting pressure on the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to do what the law says that it should do is to look at sex discrimination as well as the other kinds. A good friend of mine, Sonia Fuentes, Sonia Pressman Fuentes, worked inside the commission. She was there I think their first- or second-woman attorney, and she presses very hard, and eventually, they do have to look at sex discrimination. They are getting a lot of complaints from women on sex discrimination. The other thing that is happened as a result of the Kennedy Commission, which Kennedy agrees to because Mrs. Roosevelt came and asked him to, that was the strategy, we knew no one... Everyone knew, people involved on that, I was not, they knew that he could say know to Eleanor Roosevelt, so he says yes to this commission in 1960. The [inaudible] is not until (19)63. You know things are bubbling somewhere. SM (00:41:46): That important meeting they had at Hyde Park in the home there... She brought that up at the meeting to support him I believe for the run of the presidency. BS (00:41:58): Yes. She was a strong supporter of him, and so he owed her something politically. SM (00:42:02): Yeah, because she was against him, originally, she was a Stephenson person, and she did not like his dad. She could not stand his father. BS (00:42:08): Right. Well, yes, his father was [inaudible] but she was also a person [inaudible] that point. I mean, she was so loved and respected by so many people, and he could not have said no to her. She was the widow but she had on her own, she had her own credentials, and so forth. SM (00:42:27): Oh, yes. BS (00:42:27): He says yes to this commission, which begins to document some of the inequities. Nobody has ever documented them. Suffrage people have but they did that before 1920, and they stopped documenting and whatnot but the commission has staff and it has people who begin to get quite interested in women's issues, and Kennedy had some interest in it, because he put five cabinet members on this commission, including his brother Bobby. I mean, I suspect the women pressed for that. SM (00:42:59): When you look at the... [inaudible] any particular issue that when you look at the presidents that have been... The boomers are now reaching the age of 64 and the youngest is 49. BS (00:43:09): Yeah. My kids are boomers. SM (00:43:12): There is no spring chickens anymore in the boomer generation. BS (00:43:14): That is right. They are all middle aged and up. SM (00:43:17): Thing is the presidents started with Truman and they go to Obama and of all... You have talked about the commission here. I know the experience with President Ford and Carter that you had... BS (00:43:28): That is right. There was a Women's Educational Equity Act, which the government agrees to spend some money on women's educational issues, and they even setup an advisory committee, a council, and I was on that advisory [inaudible]. SM (00:43:40): You were also something to do with LBJ, because you were on the very first... You were appointed for some position in the first... I have it here someplace. BS (00:43:53): Lyndon Johnson, I think. SM (00:43:53): You were the first person appointed as a staff member to a Congressional committee to work on women's issues. BS (00:43:59): That is true. That is different. SM (00:44:00): And that was something linked to Johnson's ... He had given some sort of directive. BS (00:44:04): No. No. This is before ... No. No. This had nothing to do with Johnson. What happens and you looked at my stuff, so you have probably seen how I got involved in Title IX, after my experiences at Maryland, I find out that there is no law for prohibiting sex discrimination against women in education. SM (00:44:26): Wow. BS (00:44:27): I figure, well, I believe in bibliotherapy, now I am [inaudible] and books most of the time, but I think I will read up on what African Americans did in the civil rights movements and maybe there will be something there that women could do. I was not even thinking of myself at this point, being involved, but I was just curious and I knew there was a problem and I am basically a problem solver in some ways or try to be. I ended up filing charges against all these universities, charges of sex discrimination, and it is an executive order, so it is an administrative charge, you do not need to be a lawyer, and I had some very good help from inside the office of Federal Contracting Clients, a guy named Vincent Macaluso, told me what to do. I had no idea what to do, and he told me... He wrote the first complaint. Yeah. I mean, he really was one of these insiders, and there are a lot of people like that. Those of us on the outside, what did we know? I mean, they told us what we should do a lot of the time. [inaudible] worked behind the scenes with us but I belonged to the Women's Equity Action League, which was setup, because Elizabeth Boy, in Ohio, an attorney, who was a NOW member, was very worried that NOW is going to look too radical for middle class people. She was really worried about that, she cares about women's issues desperately, and here they were talking about abortion, which was not a household word at those times. I mean, there was a time before this issue became that women would whisper the word. I mean, if you would talk, "Did you hear that someone had an abortion?" There was nobody in the room but you would be whispering as if there were. I mean, you could not use that word aloud. You could not say rape without... I mean, rape was as bad a word as fuck. You just did not say those words aloud. It was a totally different time, and the women's issues ... I think this is what makes it different for the boomers, they have a whole bunch of words for things that their mothers could not have talked about at one point, like the word sex discrimination or abortion or... I remember once, my cousin had an abortion and my mother did not know I was in the house and she was talking to my aunt about it, how it went, and whatnot, and she did not realize I was there and she was so upset that I knew. I was I think a college graduate by that point, but it was like a secret, a dirty secret. The boomers have all these words or they learn them while they were growing up, some of them, they learn them while they were growing up but they were not as strange as they were to some of us as we got involved. You do have... What begins to happen in the (19)60s, this awareness in the political sense to these are growing, not only for Women's Educational Equity Act, which is a grant program essentially, go through the Congress fairly easily, the Equal Rights Amendment is reintroduced. Senator Birch Bayh, who was chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, is holding a hearing on the subcommittee for constitutional amendments. There is a woman named Wilma Scott Heide, who is president of NOW, and a former nurse and a sociologist, or whatever, she jumps up in the middle of the hearing, now, this is, again, the Vietnam War, people are doing all kinds of crazy things. She is at a Congressional hearing and she says, "When are you going to hold a hearing on the Equal Rights Amendment, Senator?" Or words to that effect. SM (00:47:50): Right. BS (00:47:51): He says, yes, he will hold a hearing. There has never been a hearing on this Congressional amendment, which had been introduced many, many [inaudible]. SM (00:47:59): Why did it fail? I know a lot of people put a lot of the credit on Phyllis Schlafly, because she worked so hard to defeat it herself. BS (00:48:07): She did. She did, but we suspect she had some help and some money. One theory is that the insurance companies were piling money on. We do not know if this is true or not. It is a theory because they had gender life insurance policies, gender health insurance policies, which are now cannot do that anymore but were in existence as of a few weeks ago, so if you had employment and you had mostly women in your establishment, you paid a higher amount than if you had mostly men. If you got your insurance independently, because you are a professional solo practitioner and you do not have from anyplace else, you paid more if you were a woman than if you were a man. The Equal Rights Amendment is now coming up and it comes up in... It passes in the Senate and we lose at the state level, and I do not know if people would agree with me but this is what I would say, because many of us in the women's movements, many of us were inexperienced politically. I am one of them. Did not know a thing about politics before I got involved. I had been a challenger for one election, which meant I just checked the records behind the table. Period. I read, I gave money to the NCAAP but that was the extent of my political participation. I believed in a bunch of things and I voted but did I know anything political? Not in the slightest kind of thing. We had been so successful in getting things through the Congress that we thought it would be the same thing. We were not organized at the state levels, and we just... We did not have the capability at the state level that we had at the federal level. At the federal level, you had already coalitions of various women's groups, you were working with various Black groups. It was too early for the Hispanics. They were not organized yet, but the African Americans and the women's groups are working together. They realize they have some commonalities in their learning from each other. At the state level, we did not have any organization to speak of. There is the beginning of the state commissions on women... [inaudible] Equal Rights Amendment passed in (19)72, (19)73? SM (00:50:42): I know, I was... My boss was involved in it. I do not know if you ever knew Betty Menson, Elizabeth Menson. BS (00:50:46): No. SM (00:50:48): She was at Ohio University. She was a suffragist. She was my first boss. She was really involved in Ohio, and I remember next door, I am the assistant director of student affairs, she is the director, I remember the vote coming in from Columbus. BS (00:51:01): [inaudible]. SM (00:51:05): It did not pass in Columbus, and she was... BS (00:51:06): Heartsick. SM (00:51:07): I think she cried. She had to go to the ladies room. BS (00:51:12): Yeah. SM (00:51:12): She had put two years of her life into it. BS (00:51:15): Yeah. Yeah. People worked hard. There was no question about it but we did not have I think enough organizational structure, probably because we were new and we did not have the bodies or the money. I mean, to have 50 states well-organized requires something [inaudible]. SM (00:51:33): I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and, of course, David Horowitz. BS (00:51:36): Oh, did you? SM (00:51:36): David Horowitz said the same thing, and that is that the women... Well, the universities are now run by the radicals of the (19)60s and they run all the programs, which is [inaudible] women's studies, gay studies, Asian studies, and Black studies, environmental studies, Latino studies, Native American studies, they are all the radicals from the (19)60s who are now running all those programs in the universities, and David Horowitz is adamant about it. [inaudible] talking about it again. Your thoughts on that? BS (00:52:20): Well, we do not quite follow the medieval curriculum with which we started, and that knowledge expands. We did not talk much about climate. It does not matter what side of the climate thing you are in, in what I am going to say, because we did not talk about climate. It was not the issue. 50 years ago, this was not an academic area worth looking at or maybe 100 years ago. I do not know how far. I do not know enough about that issue. It is the one that becomes more important, and now is an issue. It is an issue at whatever side you are on. Something is going on in our climate, we do not know why, we worry about getting rid of oil. We will not find enough oil and there is a finite amount and so forth, so it is an issue we have to study. The environment is an issue. Women's studies, we have looked at history and we have found there are a lot of things about women, which were not taught at all. It is a scholarly area like anything else. It is not political. It is very scholarly. It is very boring sometimes, because it is so scholarly but there are... It is now you look at a book, take literary criticism, I was thinking it was this just this morning, because I was thinking of Kate Millett's book, which talks about... SM (00:53:43): Sexual Politics? BS (00:53:44): Sexual Politics. She talks about Norman Mailer, she talks about Milton and there is a third author and I cannot remember who it is. I would have to pull the book off the shelf. This occurred to me this morning is I hated Norman Mailer's book. I could see it was a good book, but I hated it. SM (00:53:59): Which one? BS (00:54:00): The Naked and the Dead, his first one. I can see this guy is writing stuff that, whatever, Milton, I hated Milton but I did not know why either. Okay? I hated Milton but I could see this man is a beautiful writer, so there must be something wrong with me. Everybody says this is a terrific book and I do not like it and the same with Milton, this is revered poet... Okay. I have no idea. I really think I do not have good literary taste and I read Kate Millett's book and she points out Mailer is a tremendous sexist. He is. He hates women. His subsequent life in terms of he has beaten women occasionally and so forth and so on, confirms that and that is why I did not like the book but I had no word for it. Milton is terribly anti-female. He does not like women. If you go back and read Milton, you would see it but they never mentioned this in school. Now if you read Milton, they mention that he has an anti-female [inaudible]. SM (00:55:02): How about the Beat writers because the Beat writers, the Kerouac, Ginsberg, Anne Waldman, Gary Snyder, Furlan Getty, the list goes on and on. BS (00:55:17): I do not know enough about them. SM (00:55:18): Were they more... Were they sexist? BS (00:55:18): I do not know enough about them to comment. SM (00:55:19): I know they did [inaudible]. BS (00:55:21): Some of them were. Some of them were. SM (00:55:21): Right. BS (00:55:24): Some of them were but I am responding to your question earlier in terms of university. If you were looking at Milton, you look at Milton differently. The same is true... I am teaching this class and I looked at colonial women and what they were doing during the war. I mean, the first Declaration of Independence was printed by a woman. Why? Because the men are at war, so the women are taking over... They were working on whatever the husband's business was. They were doing all kinds of things during the war. There are women who are helping to shape the thoughts of the men who write the Constitution. These are brilliant women whose fathers probably taught them what they needed to know, and they were... Like Mercy Warren is writing Ben Franklin and whatever, I am not sure if it was Ben Franklin but men like that and then discussing the ideas that end up in the Constitution. I do not remember learning anything about that at all. You have a new lens to look at things. We have never... In history, the only immigrant thing I ever remember is that there are a lot of Jews coming over around the turn of the century and there were Irish where they said no Irish or dogs allowed. That was the extent that we knew of immigrant populations. Now you think of immigration now and how it was taught, that is how it was taught before. Immigration is a huge problem. No matter where you are on which side. SM (00:56:58): I just got back from Harpers Ferry two weekends ago, [inaudible] place to go and John Brown and they were talking about... I remember we went on a tour and in the tour of the town, African Americans were held in much higher esteem than the Irish. BS (00:57:15): Probably. Yeah. The Irish were held in very low esteem. See, but you need to study that and that is why we have these groups. Native American, what did we learn about that as a child? They were brave people who rode horses and murdered other people. SM (00:57:32): Scalped people. BS (00:57:33): Yeah. I mean, they did terrible things and that is about all. If you look at Indian culture, the British when they began negotiating with the Indians, this is well before the revolution, are surprised because the men come with their women. They have women leaders. The British cannot understand why they have to negotiate with women and men. I mean, that is fantastic. When you think of that, what does this mean? This is why you have women's studies, because women's studies as well as Native American studies, had a different way of looking at women and, historically, this is of great important. What does this tell us? Phyllis Schlafly? SM (00:58:14): Yeah. I think the period from 1980 on, of course, Reagan was the era of backlash, many people believe. BS (00:58:22): Yeah. SM (00:58:22): Of the (19)80s and then you have got Bill Clinton in the (19)90s and then you have got George Bush the second, and now Obama, so the last 30 years, boomers have gone from the thirties to the (19)60s now in terms of age, and where are boomer women? Overall, I should question you later on [inaudible] but when you look at boomer women, we are talking about a generation of 74 million boomers. BS (00:58:56): That is a lot of people. SM (00:58:58): Of which probably over half are female, what is your opinion of that generation? Have you seen a lot of boomer women going off and doing what you were doing? Some of these leaders were from another generation, and so where are... Maybe Susan Brownmiller, she is actually a little bit older... BS (00:59:23): She is a little older too. SM (00:59:23): Yeah. What are your thoughts on the boomer women? In terms of they were involved in the movements, there is no question about that. BS (00:59:31): As young women. SM (00:59:32): Yeah. As young women. BS (00:59:40): Some of them were not. I am thinking how to phrase this. I am thinking of college women and what I hear is in the here and now and there is not much support for women's issues. But that was also true in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. There was not that much support. It was a time of activism, so there were some of the active women, the people who were active and got active on women's issues, but we did not have most of the college population. We did not have them on the women's issues. We had some people on it and some nice people are sympathetic and they do not do anything about it until you can move them and, certainly, a sexual harassment and sexual assault became an issue, people got involved in that but even then, we did not have half the college population. You might be able to rally them on one particular issue, a professor is very sexist, says terrible things in class, so you may be able to get some people to do something but they are not that active. SM (01:00:43): I came up with this theory and I have been mentioning it with probably the last 40 people that I have interviewed and most... Well, there are three adjectives that truly describe the boomer generation, male, female, Black, white, gay, straight, whatever, the whole group is that this generation grew up in the late (19)40s and (19)50s and the frontrunners, the generation itself was a very quiet generation in the early years, they were a very fearful generation and they feared a lot, because they say the McCarthy hearings as the young kids, and the concept was that if you speak up, you pay a serious price for speaking up. Of course, we had the Cold War too, and then they were very naïve. Most kids are naïve to begin with. BS (01:01:30): Yes. Yes. SM (01:01:32): They were naïve, and I think television did not help any, because you saw very few African Americans on TV except for Amos and Andy in the early (19)50s, which was slapstick. You saw Nat King Cole in the middle (19)50s and he was out for six weeks and his show was canceled. BS (01:01:50): And very few women... I mean, you have women who were silly like ... What was the one who was married to the musician? The one who is very funny. Lucy. SM (01:02:00): Yeah. BS (01:02:00): Lucy. SM (01:02:05): We had I Love Lucy but then you had the Eve Arden Show, you had Our Miss Brooks, you had Gracie Allen, you had Ozzie and Harriet. You had [inaudible]. BS (01:02:18): ...of the silly white... SM (01:02:20): Father Knows Best. BS (01:02:22): Yeah. SM (01:02:22): Donna Reed Show. BS (01:02:26): Yeah. These are all the stereotypes. SM (01:02:26): Leave It To Beaver. BS (01:02:26): These are all the stereotypes of women at home, and not being very smart. SM (01:02:29): There was Mama, the early (19)50s, Mama and that show and there were a couple other ones too but Gale Storm and I forget her show... Remember Gale Storm? BS (01:02:42): [inaudible]. SM (01:02:45): Yeah. BS (01:02:46): My own daughters saw... One was born in 1954 and one in 1956 and what is different for them from my generation is they make choices about marriage and children, so that when they were in their early thirties, they both informed me... Well, one of them informs me that I will probably never get married and even if I did, I would never have a child, and the other one at that point did not seem to have prospects for marriage and says she might have a baby without marriage. Now I do not know how many people have that point of view. I want to tell you they have goth changed their minds. Both are married and one has got one child and one has two children. But it was a choice. This would not have been possible in their mother's generation. Almost everybody felt they had to get married. The big tragedy of your life would be maybe nobody will want to marry me, which seems like it was more matter of luck than what you did or if you were born beautiful, you did not have to worry as much or whatever, and you could read books and articles on how to ensnare men, a lot of things like that, and they would sometimes even use that word but there was not a choice, and nor could I have said I do not want to have... BS (01:04:03): ...but there was not the choice, nor could I have said I do not want to have any children. I could have said I want two because most people, middle class people, knew about birth control by this time, so you can limit your family and that is acceptable to limit your family. But these women are marrying later than their mothers. In the (19)50s, the birth rate, people married earlier than they have ever married in their life. They were marrying at around 20, which on average- SM (01:04:30): My mom was 19. BS (01:04:31): Yeah. They were married- SM (01:04:33): She finished two years of college at 19. BS (01:04:38): Right. They were marrying earlier. Comes to the boomer generation, they were thinking, well, I do not know if I want to get married. This is revolutionary because throughout history, the only way a woman could really survive is to be married to someone who is going to provide some things for her. Now, she still has to work for it, whether it is killing the pig years and years ago or- SM (01:04:58): Did you hear this? And I heard this a lot, particularly in the (19)70s, late (19)70s, that boomer couples that were married said "Oh, I do not want to have kids. Maybe we will never have kids because I do not want to bring them into this world that is so dangerous that they may not live to adulthood." BS (01:05:17): Some of them say that, but some of them say "I just do not want kids. It is a lot of work. I do not want to do it." I think that is new. I remember being stunned at what my kids were saying and stunned that they had even thought of this. And after a while I realized what was important is I have a happy life and you can have a happy life single and an unhappy life single, and a happy life married and an unhappy life married, so I got very used to the idea of what they were saying. But they were able to make a choice, and I think for a lot of young women, marriage became a choice. Now it is still is. Women do want to get married, the majority of them apparently, but still, it is felt more like a choice. It is not like you absolutely have to get married. I mean, people will say bad things about you. SM (01:06:11): Some of the students at Westchester University, some of them have not gotten married. They go on and become doctors and lawyers and very top professionals. They just said they just cannot find the right guy. They just cannot find the right guy. BS (01:06:22): Well, and they probably cannot. Their standards are different. They are not looking for an economic handout. There are other things that count, and I think the standards have gotten higher for marriages. SM (01:06:33): Would you say that one of the lessons of the boomer generation for both men and women of all colors, religions, sexual orientation, and certainly even political background, is that nothing happens in a positive way without a battle? BS (01:06:52): Without a what? SM (01:06:52): Without a battle. You have to fight for things. You have to fight for equality in higher education. Equality comes when others demand it via protest or laws being passed. Is that what some of the (19)60s was about, civil rights? BS (01:07:07): For some people, but most young people were not involved in civil rights. Most young people were not involved in women's issues. SM (01:07:13): Well, 10 percent of the boomers, they are saying anywhere between 5 and 15 percent, probably it was more around eight or 9 percent were involved in activism. One out of 10. Yeah. BS (01:07:27): Okay, so one out of 10. And then there is probably another two or three out of 10 who are vaguely supportive to some degree, but not doing anything. And probably that is true for most movements. I do not think these movements were that different. One of my classes consists [inaudible] talk about suffrage, and so I really read a lot about suffrage. And it seems like all kinds of things are happening. I mean, there is hundreds of campaigns, statewide, nationwide and whatnot, but I still say, well, how many women, what was the percentage of women that were really involved? And I doubt if it was very high. SM (01:08:07): And the media likes to go for the sensational. And so they will go to Woodstock and they will show the nude women or men in the water and the mud. And every person I have talked to and who were there said they just sat with their blanket- BS (01:08:27): Oh really? SM (01:08:27): ...And watched it, but they were taking drugs. That was definitely a key. But they were not sliding in mud and around walking around nude. BS (01:08:36): I think where the big changes come is that, one, you have increased sexuality, and that women are making choices about their lives. And the relationships between men and women are changing, some ways for the better, some ways I am not so sure, I do not know. But certainly the relationships begin to change. SM (01:09:01): You are very important in so many different areas. And I think you have talked about campus climate as a term you kind of were instrumental in bringing into the thinking of higher education many years back. Please define in your own way the definition of a campus climate means, and what were the campus climates? And I am really concentrating on women here, because you have already talked about the (19)50s, but I am talking about being a female student in the (19)50s. All I can remember is that Cortland State is panty raids. That is all I remember, and I was a little boy, but I heard about panty raids. BS (01:09:46): That is right. SM (01:09:47): And sitting in washing machines or goldfish or whatever, it was ridiculous. But what was the campus climate for women in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, (19)90s and today? BS (01:09:59): There are two definitions of the climate. One is the overall sense of the campus, the feelings and behaviors that go around concerning women and men and women and men's relationships and women's relationships to having a career and whatnot, and I think that is what you are asking me. SM (01:10:19): Yes. BS (01:10:20): The other definition is specific behaviors, subtle unnoticed behaviors, ways in which women are treated differently and not only by men, but by women too. Women get less eye contact. People pay less attention when women are talking. They are writing on a piece of paper, looking out the window, giving men full attention. Women are less often to be called by name. Women get less feedback, they get less praise, they get less criticism. They do hear sexist remarks. Men hear much less of that. I have a list somewhere of about 50 different behaviors, ways in which women are treated differently, and that is the very specific behaviors which are typically unnoticed. SM (01:11:06): [inaudible] BS (01:11:10): But you are talking about the atmosphere. SM (01:11:12): What is interesting to me, and I am interviewing Dr. Cohen who wrote a book on Mario Savio when I got back in California, and free speech movement was one of my areas. And I think it is important, but people try to lessen its importance by saying it was a (19)64 and (19)65 and the anti-war movement was really (19)66, (19)67, (19)68, so they tried to lessen the in impact. But the free speech movement was very important, and women, to me, were really equal in it. Because if you look at the free speech movement and Mario Savio, [inaudible] Bettina Aptheker, you had Mario Savio's future wife, [inaudible] Goldberg, and the one that was a state rep. Very powerful women, very powerful men, and it was about ideas and the fact that the university is supposed to be about ideas. It is not supposed to be about the corporate takeover of a university. And to me that means an awful lot, and women were really involved in the (19)60s in this, at least they were at Berkeley. And I know they were at my campus my undergraduate years and at Ohio State too. I guess what I am asking here is how important was the free speech movement with respect to its impact on the women's movement? BS (01:12:36): I have never heard anybody raise that question before, which makes me think it probably did not have much of an impact because it did not contribute to the ideology. Women were talking about having equal rights with men, and to the extent that men had the right to free speech, women should have a right to free speech. Free speech comes up a little bit when women, maybe more than a little bit, when women are beginning to protest on campuses. There is a lot of activity going on, partly because these are professional women. They have gone away from the stereotype of women, unlike teachers in K through 12. So you have women who have really fled the stereotype. They have gone in a different direction. They are highly trained and they have also seen a lot of discrimination. And they suspect they are being paid less, and they are right, and they suspect a lot of things going on. So they become involved in terms of how do you make change? And you get women asking for commissions on the status of women on various campuses. It would not surprise me, and I am guessing, if half or more of the colleges had some commissions. If they did not have commissions, a committee, either commission or a committee. But if they did not have either of them, there was still pockets of activity so that women would rally around a particular thing. And women were questioning the relationships between men and women and employment and body issues like abortion and sexual harassment and stuff, and these things come up. Now, I put out a newsletter from (19)70 till about 1995 and watched anything that had to do with women's issues on campus. And my sources were, one, a lot of people called me for information or would tell me something, but as a college association where I worked, we got materials from colleges all over the country, so we saw a lot of college newspapers and newsletters and things like that, and we also read women's publications to also pick up information. That whole set of things, which ranged from (19)70 to I think (19)95, we ended up with the last one, cover issues that were important to women that somehow made it into something official, before the web, this starts. And I do not remember any discussion anywhere about the free speech. Now, I am not at the radical edge. I am with those of us looking [inaudible] and we would like men to act a little better and believe in equality of the relationship and stuff, but I am not way over here where people are talking about overturning things and- SM (01:15:35): Yeah. Well Carol Haney, [inaudible] said that the problem with the women's movement is that the women's movement denied radical feminists a place at the table. And she was very strong on that. BS (01:15:47): Hard to deny. SM (01:15:48): And actually, she is the one responsible for the word "The personal is political" because she wrote the essay. BS (01:15:58): Oh, she was the one. SM (01:16:00): She was the one. BS (01:16:00): Oh, [inaudible] SM (01:16:00): So she was talking about that too, although she did not feel comfortable with being interviewed, I could tell. But I asked, a couple people persuaded her to be interviewed by me, so it was a pretty good interview. In terms of... This is your interview, but I believe that the free speech movement has some uniqueness to it because there were strong women in that event, but if you look at the Columbia protest at Mark Rudd’s book, it was a very male-dominated protest at Columbia. BS (01:16:34): Yeah, because men and women work together, and you see still today, the men tend to take over and the women become quieter. I mean, people say women do not talk, women do not speak out in meetings. SM (01:16:47): Well, Mario was the voice. BS (01:16:48): No, but women are supposed to talk a lot, but if you put men and women together, they do not talk a lot. They do not talk as much as men in many groups. If you go to a dinner party, I am always fascinated, the men are quite often talking, doing the talking. The women occasionally add something, but the men are doing more of the talking, and this is what happens in these other movements. Now you do get some strong people and that is good, but some of them drop out because they are not being listened to. I do not see its importance, at least in terms of the campus, that there may have been here are some people who are active for work on free speech issues, and here are some who are working on women's issues. And maybe on a particular campus, maybe they work together for something. SM (01:17:36): I know that Ronald Regan despised them, and his coming to power was based on two things: fighting the students, making sure there is law and order on university campuses, which he did through the free speech movement and also People's Park in (19)69. I interviewed at [inaudible]. He was in charge of the People's Park thing. Then he could not stand the welfare statement and he was going to fight that anyway he could. Just your comments here on these. I thought Sputnik was very important in (19)57 because when you talk about the issue of women not having access or being involved in math, science and technology, and then you have Sputnik in 1957 where the country demands that we get our act together education-wise with respect to the Russians. That to me could have... I put a negative down here for women because women probably did not become top scientist at that time. BS (01:18:45): No, it was very hard to become a top scientist. There were schools where you could not take a course in chemistry if you were a female, or if you were allowed to take the course, you could not major in chemistry. Or if they had a home etc. part department, women took chemistry and home etc., but not in the real departments. This is men's work and it still is a lot of that. There are not many women astrophysicists. And there are people like Summers, former president of Harvard. SM (01:19:15): Yeah, Larry Summers. BS (01:19:17): Yeah. He believes women just naturally are not that good at science. SM (01:19:21): That got him in trouble at Harvard. He had to leave really, because- BS (01:19:25): Of course he had to leave, and that was partly because of that. I mean, he was an arrogant person, so it was not- SM (01:19:30): [inaudible] even made comments on him, a former president. BS (01:19:33): Yeah, but Summers left, and also, he did not get the cabinet post he wanted. He wanted to be Secretary of Treasury and he did not get it because the women's groups would have exploded. SM (01:19:46): He is back at Harvard though. BS (01:19:48): Yeah. Well, he is back at Harvard without his presidency. SM (01:19:51): He is a professor. BS (01:19:51): But I think it is instructive. I mean, here is a man who is obviously well-educated, obviously has met lots of talented women, and yet still believes that they are naturally not as interested in science and all the other stuff. SM (01:20:06): And he is a boomer. BS (01:20:08): That is right. SM (01:20:08): He is a boomer. BS (01:20:09): He is a boomer. So not everybody has taken on these beliefs. There is still substantial number of people and a lot of conservative women. I mean, the conservative women talk about the family. SM (01:20:22): I think a lot of people around universities today are afraid of the return of activism on college campuses, and many of them are the boomers that probably did not like the activism when they were there. Some of these other ones here. McCarthy seemed to have been very big negative because of fear, and so forth. But the real positive people for, and I just listed these, [inaudible] Freedom Summer, students going to [inaudible] and voter registration drives, Rosa Parks, people like Margaret Mead, Rachel Carson- BS (01:20:59): Margaret Mead was mixed [inaudible] SM (01:21:02): She was what? BS (01:21:06): I think she had mixed views on women and with the women's movement, but I am not an expert on Margaret Mead. SM (01:21:09): I think we have already had that question. I am getting here... One of the biggest developments in the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s was the rise of colleges and universities and community colleges. Numbers rose in attendance. The importance of higher learning was growing leaps and bounds, and boomer parents and boomer kids took advantage. Universities had no gender equality until- BS (01:21:35): 1972. SM (01:21:36): 1972 was passed for schools receiving federal funds. Why did it take that long, if they knew in the early (19)60s the importance of education for their youth, to get ahead in this world? BS (01:21:52): It is important, and women need to... There is still a lot then. They need to be good parents, so you have to teach them how to be good parents, so it is good for them to have an education. There are a lot of people who believe that is what you need to do for women. But there is also a lot of sexism. Some of it is historic, but it is in the culture. Women do not need an education. You get people like Elizabeth Dole, and I have heard this from numerous women lawyers who got into Harvard or Yale who had very small numbers. They are not taking 20 women, they are taking two or six or 12. I have never heard of a quota as high as 20. It has always been single or teens. But she and other women are told by other men "You are taking a job away from a guy. Why are you here? You are keeping a guy from becoming a lawyer." And they say this, I mean, they say it aloud to the women, and I have heard that story at least six or seven times. SM (01:22:52): That is the thing, is to say after the Civil War, African Americans when they moved north, you were taking jobs- BS (01:22:56): "They are taking jobs away from white..." Exactly. SM (01:22:58): And we knew there was prejudice in the north too. BS (01:23:02): Exactly. But the prejudice... Not the prejudice. It is bad behaviors continue. It is not just attitudes, but the behaviors. Because men are more worthwhile, they need the jobs more. I mean, this is their beliefs. Men are all going to be working, and some of these women are going to get married and quit to raise their children, as well they should, I am sure some people said. It also happens that nobody's keeping records. Nobody is looking or examining the status of women on campus or almost any other place. You have the women's bureau in the government which keep some data, but usually they compare some women with other women, not always comparing women to men. And you have from after the commission, which ends in (19)63 of (19)64 after Kennedy died, he was assassinated, and the commission gives its report. And then spans, you get some commissions at the state level, and you have a citizen's advisory council on the rights and responsibilities of women with a staff of one or two people, one professional, I think, and one secretary maybe, but that is all the government is doing. So nobody knows what is going on. When the American Council on Education, which is the big elephants in the room of- SM (01:24:23): ACE. BS (01:24:26): ACE, they are the one that all the presidents belong to. This is the lobbying group. This is the one that controls, makes pronouncements, does research, but it is big. It is powerful. Some of the others are also powerful, but not like ACE. I am on this committee, this is before I was on the committee staff, but I am helping put the hearings together for Title IX. And when you put hearings together, you invite people to come testify who can be on either side because you want it to be a good bill. And if you have people from either side, they will find what is wrong from their point of view, and you can decide whether you want to change the bill or not. I mean, that is the part of the real purpose of hearings, not to mention they will support the bill or whatever. And so they call the American Council on Education lobbyists and they say "Hey, we have this bill that is going to prohibit sex discrimination. Are you interested in testifying?" And he said, "Of course not". He said... and this is again almost a quote. He said "There is no sex discrimination against women. And besides, it is not a problem. I do not see it as discrimination. It all makes sense. It is rational. We wanted to give a woman a degree in graduate school if she is going to quit when she gets married." If you believe that, that is not discrimination. That makes rational sense. And a lot of what is happening makes rational sense. I mean, why should the University of Michigan, who would have $2.3 million budget in the early (19)70s, annual budget for its varsity sports team, why should it pay anything for women's sports? They are not interested. They just do not care, so the women sell apples at football games. Everybody knows this. It is public. It is not hidden. Everybody knows they are selling apples to pay for their uniforms and their equipment and transportation. Not everybody knows that their coaches are volunteers and do not get paid like the male coaches. That is more hidden. But there is a lot of visible stuff like this, and it all has a reason. "Well, football is more important than the other stuff", we hear this today too, but everything seems to be rational. "We do not want too many women in graduate school. They are taking jobs from guys". If you ask people what was going on, then they would have a reason, and therefore they did not see it as discrimination. And until the women's movement begins, and this is an early late (19)60s, like (19)68, (19)69, you have no studies on the status of women in higher education. Literally no one has any idea what is going on. I had no idea what is going on. I did not think Title IX was that important because I did not know how bad things were. And Chicago sets up an official committee to look at the status of women, and you have Columbia Women's Liberation Group, which looks at the status of women. That is not an official committee, but looks at the status of women at Columbia. And you have me, because I am going to testify and file all these charges... Not I am going to testify. You have me who is going to file all these charges against the universities who secretly going to departments at the University of Maryland and showing them the list of faculty and saying, how many are men and how many are women? And I just say, I am just doing some research, so I need to know the gender. I did not use the word gender. I need to know [inaudible] female. So mine is a very simple study, how many at each rank and whatnot of a few departments. That is it. That is all the studies that have been done by 1970 in terms of on the campus, which means nobody looked at athletics. We looked primarily at rank and the [inaudible] rank of a few of the women, and a few other data that you could get. But they are not... I mean, they are the first studies there. If you looked at them now, you would say, my God, they did not ask about this. They did not ask about this, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Then comes an explosion of studies. I mean, they just explode and they are all over the place. SM (01:28:40): Did a lot of boomer women who were in undergraduate school in the late (19)60s, say through 1975, take the experiences of the movements and say "I want to be on this committee and that committee to make sure women were-" BS (01:28:54): No, nobody wants to be on a committee to work hard. A few do, and the communities committees are best when you have a number of people who are willing to work hard. If you have served on committees, you know a lot of people are not working hard. SM (01:29:06): What are the overall gains that women have made since World War II, and what are some of the failures in your opinion? BS (01:29:13): Between when and when? World War II? SM (01:29:16): From World War II on, the time that boomers have been alive, which is 64 years, what have been the main gains and what have been the main failures? BS (01:29:25): I think... Okay, gains. One, we have a word for sex discrimination, and it is a conceptual, it is not just a word. And it is not a single issue. It is not like suffrage, which is a single issue, and if we get suffrage all, the world will be a better place. But now we know we are talking about many issues, and people can be involved in only one little part of this. Maybe there is a caucus and women on political science and that is the only thing they care about, which is fine, but they are active and they are thinking about this. This is unlike suffrage this time. This is what is different. This includes everything. There is a women's issue to almost a whole bunch of things. I once heard of a conference on women on transportation, and I am saying, what is this about? Where is the women's issue here? Well, the women's issue is if you have women in the suburbs and only one car and no public transportation, women can only get jobs which are near their husband. That is how you are going to get to work, and there is a whole bunch of things that go beyond that. So this is, I think, a huge difference. You now have a conceptual framework in which you can look at women's issues in almost any area, which makes it very different. It is global. It is not even limited to the United States. It is worldwide, and it is probably the only thing that can probably save the planet, because it is a movement which talks about equality and respect. Relationships between men and women, this is all at one end of the continuum, and at the other end, it is laws and how governments maintain themselves. That is a major-major-major difference. We also get is women working. Women working is no longer a rarity. And we are now beginning to get men, it is about a quarter of the marriages in which women make more money than the men, and some men are not threatened now by a wife who makes more money. Both my daughters are married to men who make less money to them, although with the recession, that is changed. But what I am saying is that this is no longer that unusual. And some men are beginning to understand the economic value of a wife who makes a lot of money. One, it is insurance for you if you lose your job. It is a lot better to have one salary than no salary and so forth, and you are going to have a much nicer life if she makes a good living. So that, that is a major change. The relationships between men and women have in some ways gotten better, in some ways gotten worse. Certainly the laws have been improved enormously. We have the best set of laws probably in the world concerning education. We have laws that just prohibit discrimination in a whole bunch of things. One of the things that happened in the late (19)60s and (19)70s when Bella Abzug was in the Congress is every time that bill came up, that was going to include money going to it, she would put in something that said, no sex discrimination will be allowed in this program, because Title IX only covers federally funded education programs. It does not cover road building. Now, there are other things that may cover it, but they will Bella Abzug is shoving this clause and gets people... [inaudible] nobody fights it, because whatever. So you get not just Bella doing this, but you do get a series of laws, laws like Title VII, you get Title IX, you get a whole bunch of things like that. Professional schools begin to open to women. That is a direct result of Edith Green's Title IX and an earlier law so that you get rid of the quotas, and suddenly women are becoming like half of the medical profession, 80 percent. SM (01:33:26): Over. BS (01:33:28): 80 percent of the veterinarians. Cornell Veterinary School used to let two women in per year. SM (01:33:35): Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia, where I worked for four years. BS (01:33:39): That is a good school. SM (01:33:39): ...Had no women in the medical school in 1965. None. Now they are over half the class. BS (01:33:46): Yeah. Yeah. That is a huge thing. Women working and women getting an education is now acceptable. That is again, a huge change in the way in which we perceive women and their role. And although there is still a lot of worry about kids who are left in daycare and so forth. If another study comes out and says "Working mothers do not harm children", and that was the heading on an article within the last year on a study that was reported on in the Washington Post. And you could see what they were still saying underneath, "We really think it may harm them, and here is a study that says it does not". But otherwise you would not write that way, "Working mothers are not harming their children", whatever. SM (01:34:30): Were there any failures? BS (01:34:32): Any failures? Oh, failures, yes. We are still not included in the Constitution of the United States. We have not won that battle, and we are not protected educationally. For example, if Title IX... You know what the Congress giveth, the Congress could taketh, and we do not have any constitutional protections in terms of education. Some other things. The court... Scalia just in September made a statement at a law school in California, and he says he does not believe a 14th amendment applies to women. Now, he is against sex discrimination, but the 14th Amendment does not apply to women. He is an originalist and he does not believe that, and there are a number of people who believe that he is right. And under the Constitution, this is why people wanted the Equal Rights Amendment because it would say equality of rights, et cetera, cannot be bridged on the basis of sex, and that would be very clear. Right now, if you use a constitutional argument for women to not be discriminated against, Scalia is going to vote no, there is no constitutional protection. None. SM (01:35:48): But now we got Sotomayor in there. BS (01:35:48): We got Sotomayor, but we do not have the votes. And Ruth Ginsburg is not going to live forever, and you have got young men who are going to stay there for a long time. Granted, we have three, which is progress, but we do not have five, and we have enough people there who are- BS (01:36:03): ...and we have enough people there who are still going to do, can do some real danger in terms of women's issues. If you think that women are not protected by the Constitution, this is pretty scary. If you think, if the Tea Party wins or whatever- SM (01:36:17): And equal pay for equal work is still an issue. BS (01:36:18): Still an issue, still an issue. Yeah. Women still make less money than men. What has happened is the glass ceiling has gone up higher. So women, excuse me, women can... some of them can reach a little bit higher than they did, but they are still not equal to men. They are still... Now, the progress we have made, I think in 1960 women were earning 60 percent of what men made, which is exactly what the Bible recommends. A man was worth is 50 shekels. A woman was worth is 30 shekels. So there had not been much progress between Biblical times- SM (01:36:55): The Bible says that? BS (01:36:55): Yes, it says that. Yes, it does. That is the Word. And if you look at many, many wage scales, that is what women were earning. Now we are up to about 77 percent, so that is a huge gain from 60 to about 77 percent. But we have not gotten to what would be equity. We have not gotten there. SM (01:37:19): This may be somewhat repetitive, but what are the overall thoughts on the women's movement since the late (19)60s? Some say it was always a mainstream movement. Now, some of my commentaries are from people that I have interviewed. Some say it was always a mainstream movement. Some say that the radical feminists were excluded. That was just the one person. Some say what was once a movement that was united with other movements, I brought this up, has now become more insular and special interests. Not linked to other movements like the anti-war, civil rights, gay and lesbian rights, and then of course the Native American, Asian, and Chicano rights. And this is a criticism of a lot of the movements today, that outside of the event that just happened a week ago here in Washington, which people seem to come from all different liberal perspectives, but that is rare. An anti-war protest, it is just the anti-war movement. You do not see the women's movement there. You do not see the Native American movement. They used to be together in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Their posters were all there. They were all united. They worked together. They were called to be part of a unified effort. BS (01:38:35): I do not know what the informal relationships were. What I do know is that women care about these issues, but maybe not all women do any more than all women care about women's issues. What I do know is in terms of politics, in terms of the law, in terms of policies in the Washington area, this is where I live, in terms of in the Washington area where politics is our main business here, those groups do work together. The women's movement has been very active in terms of gay and lesbian rights, extraordinarily active. I think I mentioned to you, the Title IX people. I have been talking about this with too many people, so I do not know if I said it here or not, but Title IX applies to some of the bullying that is going on. SM (01:39:28): Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. BS (01:39:29): Did I mention this before? SM (01:39:30): I think you get over the phone, yeah. BS (01:39:32): Oh, okay. Okay. But the bullying, because I was talking to someone else who was gay this morning, my hairdresser, we were talking about the suicide of that young man. SM (01:39:40): Oh yeah. BS (01:39:42): That probably was a violation of Title IX, which nobody has mentioned. And I am working hard to get people to take that into account, but I have been very unsuccessful. But on the gay and lesbian issues, I think the women's movement had been particularly involved on a number of issues. And the Title IX issue is one of these. I raised it at a meeting of all women with the director of the Office for Civil Rights earlier. Not this particular incident, but these kinds of incidents. And raised one of the young girl who had, although that was not a gay issue, but bullying. The young girl that killed herself in Massachusetts, I think. The Irish child? SM (01:40:26): Oh, yes-yes. BS (01:40:26): Yeah-yeah. Okay. And- SM (01:40:26): Double checking. Still going. BS (01:40:34): Okay. Okay. And I said that is that is a violation of Title IX, what happened to that child. And she said, "We called that school system the next day. We are there." But they would do the same if it was a gay person as well. And I think particularly on the gay and lesbian issue, the women's groups have been there and are there. I think that is an important one. They are there also for those other groups. Are they involved in the way people would like them to be? That works both ways. And I think within the women's movement, there are Chicanos, Chicanas, there are Hispanic- SM (01:41:15): And Asian Americans. BS (01:41:16): The Asian Americans. Some of them are there and they provide linkages. And there are some women in the women's movements who belong to those particular groups. But I think sometimes people expect more maybe from other groups. I do not know. Or they do not know. All I know is in Washington, these groups work together. You talk about amending any particular law or a new policy that is coming out, and all these people are there and they are meeting together and they are working as a coalition. Does not mean they agree on everything, but they put pressure on as a group. What happens locally, I do not know enough about, but I know that ideologically speaking, the women's movement is with these other groups. And they do mention them continually. You go to a meeting and someone says, "I am hearing all the data about men and women. How come I am not hearing anything about Native American women?" And then someone says, "We could not get that data from the Labor Department," or whatever. Either they would not release it or they did not have it because they said it was too small a group so they did not collect it. But those questions get raised. When I go to meetings, I hear those questions. SM (01:42:30): Think about Donna Harris, is one of the most vocal for Native American women. That is why I- BS (01:42:35): Yes. And she was very active in women's issues when she was in Washington. SM (01:42:38): So I would like to interview her. I interviewed her husband, Senator Harris, former. BS (01:42:42): Yeah. She is a good woman. SM (01:42:44): Was second-wave, was that a direct result of sexism in the anti-war and civil rights and other movements in the late (19)60s? Would you say that second-wave came about because of the sexism within the movement? As a direct result of it? BS (01:43:01): Within the civil rights movement and the others? SM (01:43:02): Yes. BS (01:43:06): It is one part of the movement. There are different historical reasons which attract different peoples. Betty Friedan's book, as I said earlier, attracts middle-aged women who are married and sitting at home and unhappy vaguely. So there is a whole group of those. Then there is these young activists who were active in the civil rights movement and in SNCC and running down south and whatnot, and experience sexism because they are beginning to hear about sex discrimination so they begin to see it. They did not see it earlier, but now they begin to see it. And then you have other people who have been involved for legal reasons. I got involved because I thought it was immoral that sex discrimination was not illegal. That is where I started. And people come in movements for different reasons. But these are the strands. There is this people who care about policies and laws, which are critical. SM (01:44:01): Is the big difference between second-wave feminism and third-wave feminism is third-wave is more... it is not about working together. It is about what is good for me. I have heard the story. It is real... it is like, what is in it for me? And kind of that is third-wave. But second-wave, like any of the movements, was if you even heard the term, what is in it for me? That is not, as Randy Shaw says, activists do not think that way. It is what is in it for us. BS (01:44:34): Yeah. I do not hear so much, what is in it for me? I have never heard that. With second-wave feminists, they tend to think a lot of the problems are solved. And they are, I think, more concerned with body issues like sexual harassment, sexual assault, and abortion perhaps, and getting interested in employment. They are less interested in the laws because they do not think that is a problem. And there still are problems with the laws. Not as great as before. But we still have some problems. Problems. But they are not as discontented. We have made a lot of progress. So you do not have this... we do not have the horror stories anymore. And I think this is an important point. I say this facetiously, but we do not have a horror story. And one of the reasons we were able to get Title IX through, not only because people were not watching, but those people who were watching, you could say, and I used to quote this, this is my favorite figure from pre-war days. Pre-war, feels like it was [inaudible], from pre-Title IX days. In a period in the early 1960s in the state of Virginia, there were 21,000 women who were rejected for admissions to state colleges and universities. SM (01:45:46): In what year, again? BS (01:45:47): In the early (19)60s. I do not know the exact time period. I do not know if it is one year or three years. Probably not more. Somewhere... It is 21,000 are rejected. Now, during the same time period, how many men do you think were rejected by the state of Virginia? SM (01:46:01): Zero. BS (01:46:02): You are right. You are the only one who has ever gotten it right, probably because you read my stuff and it is in there. SM (01:46:07): No, but I can believe it. But I can... it is also- BS (01:46:10): That is what we gained. SM (01:46:11): Senator Byrd was the senator, the powerful senator at that time. BS (01:46:16): Byrd is from West Virginia. SM (01:46:17): Oh, yeah. Well, and this is Virginia you are talking about. BS (01:46:19): This is Virginia. SM (01:46:19): Oh, okay. BS (01:46:20): This is the state of Virginia. Okay. That is what life was like before. Now you tell that to anybody, and I use it as an example because it is a stunning example, people go like, " This is a horror story." And I would throw that figure around all the time because it was true and it was a horror story. I cannot say that now. I can say it as an example of history, but those stories are gone. That is the progress we have made. A lot of the horror stories are gone. Now, we get horror stories still with sexual harassment and sexual assault and with bullying, sexual bullying, and whatnot. But the employment ones, most of them are sexual harassment. We do not get... If you were looking at admissions, it looks like women are doing better than men in admissions to college. And not having the horror stories makes it very hard to attract people and to convince people that there is still a problem. And that is what part of what the problem is with the third-wave feminist. They tend to be younger. They are younger, and they think most of the problems are solved. And from comparing where we were, they are, but they are not all solved. Women are still making less money. Women are still not getting promoted as much. Not as many women make good salaries. Women who are not married and are single mothers, this is a terrible problem. So there are a lot of problems we have not solved, but their feeling is we have solved the major things. SM (01:47:51): Do you think that, this may be a dumb question, but- BS (01:47:54): There is no dumb question. SM (01:47:55): Okay. Well, are men more now part of the solution as opposed to part of the problem? BS (01:48:04): Yes-yes-yes, no-no-no. Depending which men and which. What I think has happened, and I have no data to back this up so it is strictly intuitive... That is the wrong word. It is my analysis. That is better than intuitive. Analysis has different associations, whether it has been an intuition. It is not my intuition I am thinking about this, is I think that in some areas of men and women's relationships, it is almost a bimodal distribution, which is rare in life. Is that we have lots of men who are better than their fathers ever were, and certainly better than their grandfathers were in terms of relationships, in a loving relationship, whether it is marriage or not. But there have been huge differences in that for a lot of men. On the other hand, there are a lot of men who I think are even worse than their father, maybe worse than their fathers. If you look at rape and forms of sexual assault, some of it is increased reporting, but is it all in increased reporting? I have a feeling that for young people, particularly with pornography on the web, the easy access into it, and when I was growing up, if somebody had a picture like that, it was one picture that would be passed around to- SM (01:49:33): Playboy. BS (01:49:35): Yeah-yeah. Playboy. Yeah. Playboy is tame compared to that. But there are a number of men whose relationships with women may even have gotten worse than their fathers, and particularly in terms of sexual assault. There were, I think, eight women taken to the hospital the other day from this college. Forgot what college it was. They think they were given a drug called rohypnol, which is the roofie. SM (01:50:00): Oh, yeah. Yeah. BS (01:50:04): Yeah. And now granted, college boys, there has always been a part of them that some of them have done... But I do not know, but it just seems to me some of them are worse in the way, in their attitudes towards women. Because before at least you had some... you did have anger towards women and everything, but you have had, even though men may have been involved in a powerful relationship that was somewhat protective of women. And I think there is a lot of anger towards women, if you look at domestic, wife battering and things like that. But I am not sure. I do not know of anybody who has done a... You have to have a pre and post, and I do not know how you could measure the past. But certainly there are a group of young men in our country, and I am not talking here about political attitudes, but whose attitudes towards sexual assault and taking advantage. I hear the stories of women being raped on campus. I hear a lot of them. And we do not have adequate figures from before to compare. So I may be just seeing what is there. Who knows? SM (01:51:13): Right. I have a question that I have asked everyone, and that is... There is two things. There is the issue of healing and the issue of trust. The question dealing with healing was something that I took a group of students to Washington, DC in (19)95 to meet Senator Muskie. And this was before he died. I do not know if you ever had a chance to meet him, but- BS (01:51:36): No, I did not, but I respected him enormously. SM (01:51:40): He had just gotten out of the hospital. We organized the trip because of our linkage with Gaylord Nelson, because we had brought Gaylord Nelson to our campus twice and he set these up. The students came up with this question, and it was based on a film they saw of 1968 with all the divisions, the convention, and the assassinations and the burnings of the cities, and you name it. Due to all the divisions, this is the question, due to other divisions in America, particularly affecting the boomer generation, do you feel that the boomer generation itself, those men and women from all backgrounds and ethnic groups and orientations, are going to go to their graves, similar to the Civil War generation, not truly healing because the divisions between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops, those who did not. And they thought the Senator Muskie was going to talk about (19)68, where the cops kept beating over the heads. And were we close to a second civil war and all that other stuff, they wanted his response. And the perception is, I brought this question and the students discussed it and then I have gone to Gettysburg four times a year to understand the impact that war has. And so they have a statue over there of the last person who died who was a part of the Civil War. In 1924, he died. So I said, is the boomer generation, does this generation of 74 million have a problem with healing from all these tremendous divisions? They are going to go to their graves bitter, not liking people. And do you think we have a problem in America dealing with the issue of healing? And boomer generation. BS (01:53:30): The boomer generation. No, because I think most of them did not really care that much about a lot of the issues you are making, you are talking about. I think they were not that involved. And I think people grow and change. I think if one looks at the differences in relationships between Blacks and whites, sure, there is a lot of bad things going on. But in lots of schools, there is a lot of good things going on. People have friends, friendships now. This has happened with boys and girls. There are more friendships now. Both of my grandsons have had women who are friends. Not dates, not sexual partners, but this is my friend. SM (01:54:14): Oh, yeah. That is a big trend now. BS (01:54:15): Yeah. Would have been impossible when I was in school. Either you dated boys, or if you talk to any boys you were not dating, it was the boy's friends of whom you dated. But otherwise, you had very little to do with boys. Having a friendship with a boy was extraordinarily rare. And this is not rare anymore. That is healing. That is a change. SM (01:54:32): Good point. BS (01:54:33): Yeah. That is a change. And I think the same thing is happening with Blacks and whites. You have a lot of Blacks and whites who are friends. Now, you still have hatred. For various groups, sure, that is still there. But this is very different. I am old enough to remember when I worked in a Black settlement house when I was very young as a teenager. My mother was hysterical because it was not safe. I never worried about it. And I had a wonderful experience. And then the woman who headed this settlement house had a party for the volunteers and my mother would not let me go. You do not go to Black people's houses. And my mother was not anti-Black. She was a civil rights person all the way, but the social distance was enormous. And the social distance between Blacks and whites and between men and women, I had not thought of it that way. Between men and women, the social distance has diminished. That is... SM (01:55:29): That is good. BS (01:55:30): Now granted, that is the younger part of it, but you see changes. I see changes in the people I grew up with or the people my age, how we have all changed, and I think this has happened with the boomers too, is they have changed. They have moved on. I do not meet a lot of people who are bitter, but then I meet a lot of people who- SM (01:55:52): Somebody said I should have clarified this by saying those who went to Vietnam and those who did not, and- BS (01:55:58): Well, Vietnam, yeah. That bitterness is there. SM (01:56:00): ...the bitterness, and the Wall, what has the Wall played in that healing? Let me tell you that Senator Muskie did not even respond to 1968, made no mention of it. He responded by saying we have not healed since the Civil War on the issue of race, and the issue of race. And then he went on to say he had just seen the Ken Burns series, and it had touched him because he had been in the hospital. 430,000 men died, almost an entire generation of the South was wiped out. BS (01:56:30): Huge-huge. SM (01:56:31): And very few men were even there to be fathers. I could not believe. So that is the way he responded. But certainly if I had changed that around to those who served in Vietnam, the 3 million, and then those who were the anti-war movement, that might be a little bit different. BS (01:56:48): That is different. And being white and middle class, I did not know many people who had children or relatives or friends in Vietnam. I am the generation slightly before. I really did not... I am trying to think if I knew anyone who served in Vietnam. Now, I cared about the war and I thought it was a stupid war and so forth. But I am just thinking, I do not know anybody so I cannot say I know people are bitter. But I read about them in the newspapers and they have a right to be bitter. SM (01:57:19): Yeah, and the Wall... You have been to the Wall, have not you? BS (01:57:21): Yes. SM (01:57:23): When you went to the Wall for the first time, what was your reaction? BS (01:57:27): Such a sadness. Such a sadness. So many wasted lines. And I think a lot of people feel that. It is also artistically and ethically so good to see the names being honored, which you do not really... you see it occasionally in very small towns. There will be a Civil War memorial and the list of boys, and they were boys often, who were killed in the Civil War business. But it is a memorial the size of the ceiling, and there is 25 names on it [inaudible]. But when you see it for the whole country, just... SM (01:58:03): And of course, you have to think about the 3 million that died in Vietnam too. When you think of- BS (01:58:08): Civilians. SM (01:58:08): Yes. BS (01:58:09): It is a terrible-terrible-terrible time. SM (01:58:13): Unbelievable. BS (01:58:17): But I think it is very hard to live being bitter. And even those Vietnam veterans, many, when you talk to them, they sound bitter, but they all also have lives. They are not sitting in a corner being bitter. They have married, they work. They are not bitter in their lives. Well, they are bitter about Vietnam, and I think that is a very different question. They may not ever heal from Vietnam. That is a wound that continually festers. But they are in relatively good shape. And I hope that will happen with the veterans of this war. These wars. SM (01:59:01): Post-traumatic stress disorders are rampant in this group. BS (01:59:04): Rampant, absolutely rampant because they keep fighting. They fight, they go home, and then they come back and they fight some more. And that is not the way we used to fight wars. SM (01:59:13): The other quality was trust and that is, that is a quality that many people have labeled the movement generation as a generation that does not trust because a lot of leaders lied to them, whether it be Watergate or Gulf of Tonkin, or even Eisenhower, U2. Remember, on college campuses in the (19)60s, no one trusted anybody in positions of responsibility, no matter who they were. BS (01:59:35): We are seeing that again with the Tea Party. SM (01:59:37): Yeah. BS (01:59:38): And I do not think those are boomers, are they? SM (01:59:40): No-no. Well- BS (01:59:41): So maybe the edge of the boomers? SM (01:59:43): Yeah, they are more working class, I think though too. I am not sure. I do not know if anybody has done the study. I am sure there is a lot of college educated people in that group, but I think it was more working class. BS (01:59:55): Yeah. But they are angry and they do not trust the government. SM (01:59:57): Yeah. Right. BS (01:59:57): There is a lot of division. SM (01:59:58): Do you think that is a good quality to have? You were a psychology major. BS (02:00:04): Yeah. But years and years ago. Yeah. I think a healthy skepticism is nice. A blanket distrust is closer to paranoia. But- SM (02:00:14): In political science, we learn that... when you learn political science, that the healthier the nation is when the citizens do not trust their government because- BS (02:00:24): Then they are watching you. SM (02:00:24): ...you are accountable. BS (02:00:34): Yeah. I was going to say something and now I have forgotten what it was. Oh dear. Brilliant statements. SM (02:00:34): Well, think about it- BS (02:00:38): Oh, I know. What I was going to say is I recently read a book about Lincoln. And the partisanship around Lincoln between the Republicans and the Democrats, I do not know if they were Democrats then, but between the two parties was awful, unbelievably bad. And I had forgotten whatever I knew or did not know before, but it reminded me of a lot of the current stuff that we are hearing. There was anger and hatred and lack of trust and disrespect, and the partisanship was incredible. And I think we have forgotten that is our history to some degree. Now, it is not always good for the nation. I worry about the Tea Party and stuff like that, but it is not unusual. Democracy is just very messy. SM (02:01:29): Yeah. BS (02:01:30): Very messy. SM (02:01:33): Even when Jackson was alive. Oh my God. People hated Jackson. Some people- BS (02:01:38): That is right. Some people still hate Jackson. SM (02:01:40): Some people believe that the... I cannot believe people are writing this, because the first six presidents, there was disagreements between Hamilton and Jefferson. BS (02:01:51): That is right. There were- SM (02:01:53): Very strong differences. And Aaron Burr, obviously. BS (02:01:56): Yes. Yeah-yeah-yeah. SM (02:01:57): But they say that the way we treat each other, the way we talk to each other, all started with Jackson and I do not understand. BS (02:02:08): They were dueling with each other. My God, they were shooting each other. SM (02:02:12): They were making fun of his wife. That is what they were trying to do there. BS (02:02:15): They made fun of a lot of people. SM (02:02:18): I have just got just a couple more questions then, we are done here. What do you think of what is going on with women in the military? I know that you... Yeah, I- BS (02:02:30): The sexual assault or in terms of women in the military in general? SM (02:02:33): I was curious when you went before Congress in those congressional hearings and the congresswoman that you worked with, Congresswoman- BS (02:02:40): Green. SM (02:02:41): ...Green. BS (02:02:42): Green. Yeah. SM (02:02:42): How were you treated as women? Because when Diane Carlson Evans went to Congress to try to get the Women's Memorial, some of them swore at her. And did you ever have that? BS (02:02:55): No, I did not have that. Well, I was fairly insulated. I was just... It is true I was working on women's issues, but most of the time I was in an office. SM (02:03:03): Oh, okay. BS (02:03:05): But I do remember when I first started on the staff, one of the men walked me to some other office because I probably could not find it or something or other. And I come from New York, and I walk with a strong, fast stride, and it is a longer stride. I am walking firmly. And he looked at me and he said, "Oh my God, you even walk like a man." SM (02:03:28): Who said that? BS (02:03:29): One of the staff members. SM (02:03:30): Oh my gosh. BS (02:03:31): Yeah. Well, talking about women and talking about changing things, it is pretty scary. Nobody wants to change unless you are uncomfortable. And this guy, he is just feeling uncomfortable, but not in a way where he wants to change or anything, because even just walking that way... The other thing is that pantsuits were just coming in and I was just beginning to wear them, and I was not allowed to wear them to work. Edith Green would not allow them. And the first woman who wore one on the floor of the House of Representatives was former governor Ella Grasso, or maybe she became governor later, from Connecticut. And she wore pantsuits, and the men made comments which are in the- SM (02:04:08): Hillary wore them. BS (02:04:09): Yeah, but that is much later. Here, we are talking about the early (19)70s. Women do not wear pantsuits in official places. And I think a woman wore a pantsuit before the Supreme Court then was chastised by one of the justices. And women wear dresses when they go before the Supreme Court, as far as I know now, still. SM (02:04:27): Two areas, and that is women in the military. Compare women in the military during the Vietnam War, and most of them were nurses, and women in the military now in Afghanistan and Iraq. Where is the- BS (02:04:40): I think a couple of things have happened is women are technically not allowed to go in combat, and that assumes that there is a line where people are fighting for almost hand to hand combat. That is not how this war is being fought. It is just not how it is being fought. You are driving someplace, from one place to another, and you are attacked. Now you have two choices. Say, " Oh, I am a woman. I do not hold a gun. I do not do any of those things." But fortunately, they have issued you a gun, so you are going to use it. So women are doing combat and nobody is really looking at it because there is a law that says women are not supposed to be in combat. They fly planes. They fly helicopters. There was one woman during the Kuwait War, I think, who was captured, pilot. I think also a physician was captured. So there is a lot more combat... SM (02:05:28): I will let that one go to equipment. BS (02:05:35): The number of women [inaudible] a quote. They would rather have a non-high school student, male, who is a juvenile delinquent, then take more educated women, high school graduates, or even college graduate. There is a quote on the number of women. That is gone up slowly. I do not know what it is now, 15 percent or something, whatever. But ever since the Kuwait War, there has been a change. Every politician or commentator on the news now never talks about the men in our armed forces. The men and women in our armed forces, whether they are a Democrat, a Tea Party person, a Republican, does not matter where they are from the political spectrum, and that is, again, a symbol of a huge change. Big, big change. SM (02:06:25): This has all happened in the lives of boomers and boomer women. BS (02:06:29): Yes. This is everybody. This is everybody. We now will get soldiers, now, we are not drafting anybody, and it would be legal to just draft men. We would have a lawsuit about it, and the Supreme Court would have to find out if it was discrimination not to draft women. I think it would be. But nobody is suggesting that. It is probably one of the, I do not know for sure, nobody is suggesting a draft anyway. But our attitude towards women in the military has changed somewhat. However, those women in the military, and here is a statistic for you, they are more likely to be sexually assaulted than to die in the war. SM (02:07:07): Yeah. I know we- BS (02:07:08): Or to even be injured in the war. SM (02:07:09): We brought, we had a student affairs before I left. We brought this issue up at a summer retreat, and Dennis Traister, an Iraq veteran, came back and talked about it, and it is an embarrassment. And he did not do it, but he knows this is happening, and it is really having a terrible image on the veterans returning. Because it is almost, when you think about it, if it is so rampant, and it supposedly is, then... And then of course, when Vietnam vets came back, they were looked upon as baby killers. And even though the majority did not kill babies, a lot of people would say that oh, many of them did. It is a lot more rampant than you think it was. It is not just all only [inaudible]. BS (02:07:57): But it is against the policy now. SM (02:07:58): Yeah. BS (02:07:59): I do not know if it was against the policy then. It is against the policy now. SM (02:08:00): Yeah. No, it was not, but still, there was a... BS (02:08:03): Against policy then it- SM (02:08:03): Yeah. BS (02:08:03): It is not against the policy now. SM (02:08:03): No, it was not, but still, there was a conduct code. BS (02:08:04): Yeah. But it is a real problem for women. On the other hand it is... I was watching an interview of a soldier who was like a platoon leader or whatever. And he was saying..." And he was not talking about women's issues. He said, "The men and women in my platoon, they are fantastic." And this is a small unit. And the women generally have proved themselves to be quite good. I mean, you really got to love the military. You have to want to go into it. But they are there and they help. And to the extent that more and more of wars will be run by computers. Or lots of parts of the war... SM (02:08:47): Right. BS (02:08:49): Even when you have the ground stuff that goes on in Afghanistan and Iraq, you still need people to do computers. You now fly a plane by sitting somewhere in the West. You fly these drones over in Iraq. SM (02:09:01): Well, you talked about the fact that women were not involved in math, science and technology. BS (02:09:06): That is right. SM (02:09:07): Now we are talking about the Bill Gates and the Steve Jobs now. BS (02:09:10): Yeah. SM (02:09:10): Where are the women... Are women equal now in say, Silicon Valley? BS (02:09:14): No. SM (02:09:14): And the- BS (02:09:15): No, they are not. SM (02:09:16): No. BS (02:09:16): They are not. They do not run Silicon Valley. When computers first started, you had women who were systems analysts because it was a new field and it had no sex roles in it. And then as the field gets bigger and more solidified and older, you get sex roles emerging. So that men are better in computers than women. This was not true at the beginning. There were women who were inventing computer languages and whatnot. At the beginning it was different. There were no sex roles. This is all brand new. So you cannot say, "Only women do this." Or, "I am more comfortable if men do it." You do not have that now. You have much more differentiation. And indeed, computer technology is one of the places in terms of people majoring in it. The number of women has dropped in the last few years. [inaudible] SM (02:10:02): So this is an area now where Boomer men probably have failed in terms of women have not been encouraged to be... BS (02:10:10): I... Yeah. SM (02:10:11): Bill Gates works closely with his wife on philanthropy. BS (02:10:14): Oh, yes. SM (02:10:15): But he sold everything. BS (02:10:16): Yeah. SM (02:10:16): He does not oversee anything anymore. But Steve Jobs is all the time up there. And there is others besides those two. BS (02:10:23): Yeah. SM (02:10:24): Just quick responses and then this is it. BS (02:10:27): Okay. SM (02:10:27): These are just at the very end. I always... I had written down here yesterday, I saw Rush, I heard Rush Limbaugh talking about the National Organization for Women and he called them Nags N-A-G-S. BS (02:10:42): Yeah. SM (02:10:43): And he says they are a bunch of demi-Nazis. So he is still doing is his thing. BS (02:10:51): A lot of people are still upset with women. And if women stand up for their rights. There is a wonderful quote by Rebecca West who was a writer a number of years ago. I cannot remember anything she has written. But she says, "I do not understand why people call me a feminist when I get angry when they want me to act like a doormat." That is not quite a direct quote, but you got the sense of- SM (02:11:15): It is just a quick response... BS (02:11:18): Yeah. SM (02:11:19): Just a thought on any of, these are just major events. BS (02:11:20): Yeah. SM (02:11:21): Kent State and Jackson State. BS (02:11:25): Kent State, I remember. What, well I am trying. But Jackson State, something happened there but I am drawing an absolute blank. SM (02:11:31): That is where two African American students were killed 10 days later after protesting. And they- BS (02:11:36): In Mississippi? SM (02:11:37): Yes, yeah. BS (02:11:37): Jackson State. Okay, and I have been there. Yeah. I had forgotten that. I had forgotten that. SM (02:11:42): It was 1970, and it was a major event. BS (02:11:45): I am going to Kent State in December to speak there. SM (02:11:49): It is a good school. BS (02:11:49): It is a very good school and lots a good people there. SM (02:11:50): Great school. BS (02:11:51): So I have been thinking a little bit about what happened there. But I... This is history. Right now I think it would be very difficult to send troops to a college, to quiet things down. SM (02:12:04): Oh, yeah. BS (02:12:04): To send the National Guard out. But who knows what will happen? One hopes that they are better trained now. SM (02:12:09): Yeah. BS (02:12:10): And they probably are. That does not mean that you do not get people who do bad things. SM (02:12:16): I think, I hope presidents even... I think presidents should have learned about whether you invite these groups onto campus to begin with. Watergate. BS (02:12:24): Well, you see, but that is a free speech issue. SM (02:12:26): Yeah. BS (02:12:27): That is a free speech issue. And you cannot... It is very hard because there are lots of groups that really say bad things about other groups of people. And they do have a right to say them. In a state university. In a private university, you have no First Amendment rights. SM (02:12:42): Right. BS (02:12:43): And so you could say in a private university, "Sorry, we are just not letting the Tea Party people speak." Or, "We are not letting whatever." SM (02:12:49): Yeah, Villanova that a couple times. BS (02:12:52): Yeah, but if you are in a public institution, it is very hard legally to get rid of people You do not want to speak. You have to let them speak. Now, you may have to provide, may have come up with some rules and you may have to have a security force and you may have to do things like that. SM (02:13:08): Well, I do not think Villanova wanted David Horowitz there. BS (02:13:10): But David Horowitz still spoke there. Yeah, well he has a right to speak there. SM (02:13:14): Yeah. BS (02:13:14): And I think students would be right if they said, "You are not letting, you are only letting us hear people you like." SM (02:13:19): Yeah. BS (02:13:19): "We want to hear the other side." I would support their right. SM (02:13:23): Any thought that Watergate? Just quick thoughts? BS (02:13:30): Watergate was an awful experience for the United States. I have no question about that. But I will tell you a story about Watergate. At the time of Watergate, everybody in Washington is talking about it. Everybody is talking about, "Did you meet anybody?" You say, "Did you see the news this morning?" Or, "Did you see the article yesterday?" Or whatever. So it is big news. There is one place where it is not ever mentioned, and this is the Republican women in the White House who are meeting with a whole bunch of other women, mostly Democrats to work on women's issues. We come and we meet with Anne Armstrong and some of her female people. And we talk about various, whatever's going on, what we need, what we think the government ought to do and everything. SM (02:14:18): Yeah. BS (02:14:19): No one mentions Watergate. SM (02:14:21): Oh my God. BS (02:14:22): That is the only place... It was so obvious that no, everyone was being extraordinarily polite. And I think what was going on, I think symbolically this is interesting, is because what it showed... It has become harder now I think in some ways. But women who are very different in their backgrounds and their political beliefs can unite among some of the women's issues. And indeed they still do. If you look at women, you look at both in the United States and women's programs overseas, and I mean, not everybody is a Democrat. You know, do get people who, of different views who care about some of these issues. SM (02:15:01): Right. BS (02:15:02): And they work on some of these issues. [inaudible] And I think that instance, and I think the sadness that has happened is that the issue has changed enough. It is now mostly... But it is not only Democrats. There are some Republican women who care. And the popularity of someone like Sarah Palin is very interesting. SM (02:15:28): Yeah, I read a very good article on... What the heck was it... They think she is going to be the candidate. I do not think she is. I think it is going to be Romney. But- BS (02:15:37): Question is, can she get elected? SM (02:15:39): But Romney does not like her. I know that. They do not like- BS (02:15:43): No, anyone who is a real politician, does not like her. SM (02:15:46): Woodstock. BS (02:15:47): Woodstock, I kind of looked at Woodstock with some amusements and shock. Because I am of the generation before. I was delighted that my kids were not there. I know that area because I spent my summers in that area. The same postal, the zone. SM (02:16:05): Did you have a generation gap? Because that is- BS (02:16:07): I think it is... Yeah, there' is always a generation gap. I mean, you look at Roman writings and the young people are all, they like to rebel and they see, they want the world to be different than, well, they should want it to be different. And so there is a generation gap. You have some different values. When my kids were talking about choosing not to get married, I had to really think about that long and hard. And it took me a while to realize that their happiness was much more important than whether they got married. And if they felt they could be happier not being married then. That is what it needed to be. And I think on a lot of issues, that is what happens is you rethink your views and people change. I mean, that is the other thing that is really exciting about looking at history is you realize some things never changed, but some things do. SM (02:16:55): Look at Gloria Steinem. She did not get married until real late. BS (02:16:59): That is right. Yeah. And then the guy died, which was sad. SM (02:17:03): Oh, he did die? BS (02:17:03): Yeah, he died a few years after. SM (02:17:04): Oh. BS (02:17:04): I think it was less than five years. He had some dreadful illness. SM (02:17:08): Just hippies and yippies. I do not know what you thought of them. BS (02:17:15): Yeah. I think they served a purpose. People at the extremes help you in the middle, change your view. And you never quite go to those extremes. But you think about some of those things and the whole casualness in dress, it is partly because of the way the hippies dressed. SM (02:17:32): Do you think that the counterculture, which was a very popular word... BS (02:17:37): Yeah. SM (02:17:37): Were there women in the counterculture? There certainly were. BS (02:17:38): Certainly in communes that those two things have had an effect on women today in any way? I know in a lot of the communes, sexism got to be real issue that they had to deal with. I think there are always things on the fringe of society that have limited effects. But sometimes they have hidden effects. I mean, there is something appealing about people living together in a group that cooperates with each other. That is an old human ideal. And they were trying, and did not quite succeed beyond the few. And even those have changed. I do not know what the impact was. SM (02:18:19): The- BS (02:18:20): Excuse me. But sometimes the philosophical impact, the notion of what they were trying to do is appealing and makes one think of cooperation and cooperative societies, even though one would never live, perhaps... I mean, this is how I look at them. SM (02:18:34): I always looked at communes as drama out. BS (02:18:37): Yeah, well, some of them were, and they are all controversial and they are all different. But they were not as important as the media thought they were. And then this is, I think one of the problems is the media made some of these... Because we have mass media, and even though we did not have computers, then we had television. And so they have to fill that thing up 24 hours a day. And so anything that looks important gets tremendous coverage. SM (02:19:04): Attica and Wounded Knee. BS (02:19:05): Yeah. SM (02:19:06): Now Attica obviously was the terrible... BS (02:19:08): Yeah, the prison riot. SM (02:19:08): Yeah. BS (02:19:08): Yeah, and then Wounded Knee. SM (02:19:11): And then Wounded Knee was the Native American and then... BS (02:19:12): Yeah. I think Wounded Knee probably had more importance. Attica, you start off, I mean, after all they are "Prisoners." I am putting quotes around that. So you do not have the best... They are all bad people to some degree. So that colors what happens. On the other hand, you do not want them to be treated like animals. SM (02:19:30): Yeah. BS (02:19:31): So it probably had an impact on some prison reform. I do not know enough about prison reform to know what happened, but it would not surprise me. It certainly, I think was a shock to many people how badly prisoners were treated. And I am sure another set of people said that, "Well, they got exactly what they deserved. We should not be coddling them." But I think the American Indian movements had a different kind of impact because that had to do with history. And we have not treated Indians, well, Native Americans in our histories. I did not know anything about Indian culture at all until probably in the (19)50s. We took a trip to the West and I saw some Indian communities and I was absolutely stunned. I knew nothing about this. SM (02:20:19): If I hear one more time, people say gambling casinos or... BS (02:20:23): Oh, well... SM (02:20:25): Now they are getting good jobs because of the casinos. BS (02:20:27): Only some of them, only some of them, not for most of them. SM (02:20:31): These are some of- BS (02:20:34): But I think historically it becomes very interesting because it makes them now a disadvantaged group that we need to think about. They become part of America in a different way. And I think that was extraordinarily important because it got people interested in Native Americans. All we knew was that they found people and whatever. Defeated by Custer. SM (02:20:55): What did you think of the Students for Democratic Society and then the Weathermen that the violent group that came out of that group? BS (02:21:02): Yeah. Students for Democratic Society were in my college, Brooklyn College in the late forties when I went to college and I was thinking of joining. And my mother in her wisdom said, "Do not join." She said, "It is not going to be good for you in the future." She said, "Do not join. If you want to go to the Navy, go to the Navy, but do not join." It turned out to be very good advice. SM (02:21:21): Yeah. BS (02:21:24): Because it is not so good to lie on an FBI... SM (02:21:26): Yeah, that is right. BS (02:21:28): The FBI investigation and whatnot. So... SM (02:21:31): Yeah, going violent is, I have had different responses that one. BS (02:21:37): Yeah. Violence I think is a bad thing to do. The only time one should ever be violent is in self-defense. SM (02:21:44): These are personal- BS (02:21:44): Or in a war. SM (02:21:45): These are personalities. Just quick thoughts on the person. Tom Hayden. BS (02:21:50): Tom Hayden. See, I am not a Boomer, so he had a different effect on me. I thought he raised some good issues. I thought he was a little more radical than I was comfortable with. But he was raising interesting issues. And... SM (02:22:04): Jane Fonda. BS (02:22:06): Jane Fonda. I happened to like Jane Fonda. I think she was probably misled in terms of Vietnam to some degree. But she meant well and I liked her. But I have to tell you, that is colored by my feelings towards exercise and her feelings towards exercise. And she is female, too. So that may also make a difference... SM (02:22:25): The two guys that were the yippie, Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman. They were the ones that... BS (02:22:31): Oh God, yes. I do not know what I thought about them. They were not central to my consciousness. I do not think I liked them, but I certainly did not hate them. I mean, it never reached that level. But I do not think they reached me. But there was always something... They were criticizing parts of society sometimes that made sense. SM (02:22:52): Yeah. BS (02:22:53): And that part I think was good. But they again, they are not my generation. SM (02:22:58): David Harris. BS (02:22:59): I am not even sure who David Harris is, except with sounds familiar. SM (02:23:04): He married Joan Baez. He went off to jail for... BS (02:23:05): Oh God, yes-yes-yes. SM (02:23:07): Resisting the draft. BS (02:23:08): Yeah. But you see, I know so little about him. I do not- SM (02:23:11): Cesar Chavez. BS (02:23:11): Cesar Chavez, I liked, because he was really working directly with the underdogs, and he was really working for people who were being taken advantage of. And so he appealed to me. And I come from a family that was quite pro-union. I learned... We never went into a store that had a strike line, has a picket line in front of it. SM (02:23:33): Right. BS (02:23:34): ...In front of it. And he was working for unionization of these poor people. So he had a bigger impact on me because he appeals to my old values. SM (02:23:43): How about NOW? BS (02:23:45): NOW? SM (02:23:46): National Organization for Women. BS (02:23:52): They had an enormous influence. They were the only organization for a long time. The small group that I joined was started by... I think I mentioned this earlier. So I had two classes yesterday. So I talked about some of the same things... SM (02:24:07): [inaudible] BS (02:24:08): I am not sure whether I said this yesterday, last night or this morning. But there were concerns that NOW was too radical for middle class women. And Elizabeth Boyer started the Women's Equity Action League, WEAL, which is what I filed under. WEAL, was filing those charges. SM (02:24:25): I have- BS (02:24:25): Because she worried that middle class women would be turned off by some of the activities of NOW. They held demonstrations. SM (02:24:33): Right. BS (02:24:34): At this point, I had never been in a demonstration or parade in my life. And so it seemed pretty not good for me, so I did not join NOW immediately. But this other organization looked like it was much more dignified. Betty Boyer was particularly concerned that the abortion issue would turn off a lot of women. And though she set up NOW so it did not take a stand either way on abortion. She was very pro-choice. But she set up the organization so that would not be something that could destroy the organization. Years later, they came up with a stance for pro-choice, but it was set up initially... And it was wonderful. There were a whole bunch of women like me. We would not join NOW because we would not march in a parade. Well, of course, I cannot tell you how many parades I marched in and rallies I have spoken at and whatnot. But WEAL became a place for stepping into the nice shallow water of the Women's Movement. And then you could expand. And then they died rather suddenly when they lost some funding a few years later. SM (02:25:36): At least the magazine keeps going strong though. BS (02:25:38): This magazine is still good. I still subscribe. SM (02:25:40): Now that they get good writers. BS (02:25:43): So yeah, they get good writers and they write about things nobody else is writing about. SM (02:25:47): Yeah. The Miss America Protest of (19)68. What did you think of that? BS (02:25:54): Oh, yeah. I liked that they did that. I watched Miss America every year. SM (02:25:57): That was Carol Hanish. BS (02:25:57): Was it? SM (02:25:57): Yeah. BS (02:25:58): Okay. Then you probably know that bras were never burned. SM (02:26:00): Yeah. BS (02:26:01): Okay. What I have heard, that part I know is true, that they were never burned. What I have heard, but I do not know if this is true, is that they tried to get a fire permit and could not get one. I do not know if that is real or not. But I- SM (02:26:11): I am not sure. I know they had a banner up... BS (02:26:13): I love the story. SM (02:26:14): Four of them had a banner. BS (02:26:16): Yeah. Now I thought it was a good idea. And I was someone who had watched every year. And they showed America what Miss America really was. And I thought it was absolutely lovely. Yeah. SM (02:26:29): And I- BS (02:26:29): I did not like the ideas of them throwing bras away. SM (02:26:32): Anita Bryant, I talking to her, another personality of that. BS (02:26:36): Yeah. I thought she was somewhat sad. She did not really... She really was certainly homophobic and anti-female and fortunately not terribly powerful and faded into obscurity fairly quickly, which was good. SM (02:26:50): Emmett Till, of course. BS (02:26:51): Emmett Till, yeah. Absolutely awful. Absolutely awful. SM (02:26:55): I just had a whole James Meredith... BS (02:26:58): Yeah. SM (02:26:59): And certainly the civil rights room with the big four. BS (02:27:02): These were great. These were- SM (02:27:02): Plus boycotts. BS (02:27:03): Yeah. Some of these were very, very brave people. I mean, they literally laid their lives on the line and some of them were killed. I do not know if I could do that. I probably could do it now because I am older and my kids do not need me. But as a middle-aged or young person, to do that I think requires incredible courage. SM (02:27:23): Yeah. It is like, I think it is Casey Hayden, Tom Hayden's first wife. BS (02:27:28): Yeah. SM (02:27:30): She said she would be in she' would interview with me, but she keeps delaying it. BS (02:27:32): Oh. SM (02:27:32): She does not do interviews anymore. BS (02:27:35): Oh. SM (02:27:37): But certainly the women who went south, those young women and men who went south. BS (02:27:43): Yeah, some of them were killed. SM (02:27:43): Yeah. BS (02:27:43): A woman from Michigan. Viola- SM (02:27:45): Viola Liuzzo. BS (02:27:46): Yeah. SM (02:27:48): Stonewall. BS (02:27:49): Stonewall- SM (02:27:49): 1969. BS (02:27:52): I did not notice it very much at the time. I remember reading about it, but not thinking very much about it. But of course, it was the beginning of another movement. And something like that, it is interesting how movements physically start, because clearly these people were around before. SM (02:28:10): Oh, yeah. BS (02:28:10): But they were not... Now, they could coalesce. And I think this has happened with women's issues for individual women. There was not the defining moment. Everybody did not read Betty Friedan's book at the same time. And indeed there were people before Betty Friedan doing things on it. We do not have a defining moment as such. But I think for some movements you do have that. And for the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, et cetera, that was a defining movement. And they could do that in part because the women's movement and the civil rights movement had said, "You have a right to feel this way. You have a right to be respected for what you are and for what you do." I mean, that is the message of the civil rights movement and the women's movement. Which lays the groundwork then for other movements to come up and say, "Yeah, we deserve respect. We have rights. Just like you have rights." And in general, they have been... The Women's Movement has had lesbians in it. Not... Can I tell you a story? SM (02:29:13): Yeah. BS (02:29:18): [inaudible] The first nationally sponsored conference of women is the Houston Conference in 1977. And so the government was not paying for us to come. SM (02:29:27): The first year in California. BS (02:29:28): Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. SM (02:29:30): Yeah. BS (02:29:30): So you can place it in time. SM (02:29:31): Yeah. BS (02:29:32): So the Women's Movement is gathering speed. We have gotten some laws passed and everything. And this is official. The government... We had congresswomen that are coming, and some of the first ladies are coming. I mean, there is some big, big deal. And they have lots of resolutions. And all the resolutions pass unanimously. We need no discrimination here and reform this and want to... Yes, everybody says unanimously. Now you know the resolutions in advance. And there is one on lesbianism. And I am thinking, politically, this is not a good idea. It is going to split people apart. It is going to turn people off. This is what I am thinking. So I asked someone whom I respect enormously, who runs the Women's National Center... What is this… This is the worst part of getting old you get mixed up on some these initials. This is the National Women's Law Center. That is it. National Women's Law Center. And she is someone I respect enormously. I mean, she is just terrific as a human being and intellectually and legally. So we are talking about this, and I say, "I just think this is a bad idea." I said, "It is going to cause political stuff and it is going to make the women look bad and everything." And she looks at me and she says, "Do you know there are lesbians in the Women's Movement?" I said, "Really? Who?" And she starts reeling off some names of women I have worked with whom I had never noticed. SM (02:30:55): Oh, wow. BS (02:30:56): Looking back, I could see the signs were there, but I myself knew so little about this. I had never met anyone I knew except one young man once... SM (02:31:05): Right. BS (02:31:06): Who apparently was gay, and everybody knew it, but it was a new idea for me. I said, "Really?" I remember the tone of voice, even. Yeah. SM (02:31:15): That was like I was in graduate school at Ohio State... BS (02:31:17): Yeah. SM (02:31:17): ...In 1972, and we had our evening class... BS (02:31:21): Yeah. SM (02:31:21): And I know it was Dr. Johnson. And the class had 20 students, so they were about 10 males, 10 females. BS (02:31:29): Yeah. SM (02:31:30): And at the very end, we are talking about anti-war... BS (02:31:35): Yeah. SM (02:31:36): The war Vietnam, the protest movement, civil rights issues of African American women. BS (02:31:40): Yeah. SM (02:31:40): And Dr. Johnson said," I would like all 10 of the men to stay after." BS (02:31:46): Oh, wow. SM (02:31:48): I said, "What is this?" BS (02:31:49): Yeah. SM (02:31:50): "Why are we staying after?" BS (02:31:51): Yeah. SM (02:31:51): I would like you to... And then the women left. BS (02:31:55): Yeah. SM (02:31:56): And the guy that he said, "I would like you to meet the first person who is going after a PhD in gay studies in America." His name is Dr. Allen Herbst. BS (02:32:12): Oh my God. SM (02:32:12): And here he is. He came in. BS (02:32:12): Wow. SM (02:32:12): Dr. Johnson was… BS (02:32:12): Wow. SM (02:32:12): I guess he had just popped into the campus. BS (02:32:15): Something, yeah. SM (02:32:18): And Dr. Johnson... And we are looking, I guess I must have been pretty naive because I knew nothing about this stuff. BS (02:32:22): Well a lot of us were naive. SM (02:32:25): The thing is, we are talking about the anti-war movement and civil rights, and between black males and females... BS (02:32:27): That is right, this is- SM (02:32:31): All of a sudden... BS (02:32:31): This is real rights. SM (02:32:32): [inaudible] But it came out nowhere. BS (02:32:35): Yeah. It seemed like it came from nowhere because it was- SM (02:32:37): And we are sitting there, what the hell are we here for? BS (02:32:39): Yeah. SM (02:32:40): Yeah, it is great that he is getting a PhD, but... BS (02:32:43): Yeah, but what does this mean to me? SM (02:32:44): Yeah and Dr. Johnson never brought it up again in any of the courses. BS (02:32:47): Yeah. SM (02:32:48): But he said, you just got an opportunity to meet this guy. I never knew what happened to him. BS (02:32:52): Yeah. Well, it was a new issue. And they could build, just as women built on... SM (02:32:57): I think it was Minnesota, University of Minnesota. BS (02:33:00): Yeah. SM (02:33:00): I think that is where Sarah Evans is from. BS (02:33:01): Yeah. SM (02:33:03): Or was from. Almost done here. BS (02:33:05): Yeah. Okay. SM (02:33:06): Just a few more names and then we are done. I often wondered what the AIDS crisis, if women affected the women in any way, the Women's Movement, the AIDS crisis. Because I have interviewed a lot... BS (02:33:19): Yeah. SM (02:33:19): Gay and lesbian leaders. BS (02:33:20): Yeah. SM (02:33:20): I interviewed Malcolm Boyd. BS (02:33:22): Yeah. SM (02:33:22): I have interviewed Cleve Jones and Tori Osborne and others like that. And they said that, in fact, two of them started crying because Reagan could not even mention the term AIDS for many, many years. BS (02:33:36): Yeah, that is true, I had forgotten that. SM (02:33:41): And the men... And I guess the question is, not many women died, but the question is, yes, women did die. BS (02:33:44): They did. And they still do. SM (02:33:45): Yeah. And the question is, did the AIDS crisis have any effect on the Women's Movement? I know I am throwing things out here, but... Because it was devastating in (19)83- BS (02:33:56): It has an effect in that because of the Women's Movement, anything else that is going on, you could say, "Does this have an impact on women or on a specific group of women?" And women do begin to raise this because all the attention is on men as if only men had AIDS. And so women do begin to raise this. And the kind of things that you end up with is in Africa, you have to educate women how to prevent AIDS when they are having sexual intercourse. SM (02:34:27): Right. BS (02:34:28): Otherwise, AIDS will keep spreading. And if you cannot get the men to do it, you can get the women. And ideally, you aim at both. But this is what has happened in a lot of federal policy programs, a lot of non-profit programs. And just in people's thinking. There are people who will say, "Does this have an impact on women?" Or, "What is the impact on women? Do we need to do something different for women? Are we including women?" And so that kind of impact is not really written about, but it is there. And the programs, and now I am talking about not AIDS, but aid programs in undeveloped countries is... The realization now is if you do not help women, you do not help the country. You cannot do only- SM (02:35:17): India is another country, yeah. BS (02:35:18): That is right. Yeah. India, Africa. SM (02:35:20): Yeah. BS (02:35:21): And it is, again, the Women's Movement has sensitized a lot of people who would not say they are part of the Women's Movement, but they will ask that question. What are we doing? They are looking at education, for example. And it turns out in every country, men have more education than women. Does not matter whether you are talking about PhDs or basic literacy. So if you want to start educating people, you got to look at everybody, not just boys. And if you look at girls in Africa, they get raped on their way walking to school. So some of them do not go to school. Or they do not have sanitary napkins, so they do not come to school when they have their periods. So you begin to look at education as not just, we need more schools and more teachers. What do we do about these kids who are dying to go to school? They really want to go, they walk five miles and they know they could be raped on the way. And so what do you do? Give them bicycles? Some people do that so they can get away faster. But still... Do we need to provide transportation? But you look at it very differently. And that is the legacy I think, of the Women's Movement and why this movement will not die. There is an ideology that is- SM (02:36:38): It is global. BS (02:36:38): It is global. SM (02:36:39): When I interviewed Sherilyn Bunch, that is what she said. BS (02:36:41): Yeah. SM (02:36:41): It is global. BS (02:36:41): Yes. She was one of the first people to recognize that. SM (02:36:45): She also went to Hanoi. BS (02:36:46): Yeah. SM (02:36:46): During the Vietnam War. BS (02:36:48): I know, I know. But I remember when she started working at writing about this and thinking about, that is really weird to think of it as global. But she is absolutely right. It is a global movement. And people have to pay attention to it because there is no way we can solve the world's problems unless women are involved. I mean, if we get out of Afghanistan, the women there will die. They are not allowed to go to school. No. And their lives are terrible. And I would love us to get out tomorrow, but I am torn because I say if we are not protecting the women, it is very close to slavery. SM (02:37:29): [inaudible] Eleanor Roosevelt... BS (02:37:35): We do. Yeah. SM (02:37:35): The last few. This is just the... I will read all these all at once here. BS (02:37:37): No, read them one at a time. SM (02:37:38): Okay. Well, George McGovern and Eugene McCarthy. I just knew, they were big names back then. BS (02:37:46): Yeah, they were big names. And I liked the two of them, and supported the two of them. They worked to make society better in many, many ways. They wanted it to be more transparent and more effective democracy. And a lot of people thought they were very radical. I do not know if they were or not. I did not. SM (02:38:01): Bobby Kennedy is another one there. BS (02:38:04): Yeah. I liked Bobby Kennedy. He... SM (02:38:08): Daniel Ellsberg and those Pentagon Papers. BS (02:38:11): Brave man to do what he did. SM (02:38:15): Have you seen the movie? BS (02:38:15): No. SM (02:38:15): The Most dangerous man in America? BS (02:38:16): No. But to do what he did took tremendous bravery. SM (02:38:20): Well, his wife plays an important role in his life. The one that he married right around the Pentagon. Papers time his second wife. BS (02:38:28): Yeah. Oh, I did not know that. SM (02:38:29): Oh, yeah. BS (02:38:29): Yeah- SM (02:38:30): Crucially without her, I do not think he would be here today. BS (02:38:34): If you have educated, strong women, you end up with educated strong men. SM (02:38:39): Well, I think she is the one that... BS (02:38:41): Yeah. SM (02:38:41): I do not really think he would be here today if it was not for her. BS (02:38:43): Interesting. I did not know that. Thank you. SM (02:38:45): Yeah. You see how much they were a team. BS (02:38:50): Yeah. Are we recording? SM (02:38:51): Yeah. We are recording right here. BS (02:38:52): Oh, right here. I am sorry. I looked around- SM (02:38:55): Yeah, because I ran out. BS (02:38:55): Sorry. I looked beyond it. SM (02:38:57): The Spiro Agnew. BS (02:39:02): Oh God. I actually voted for Spiro Agnew for governor in my state because the guy, the Democrat who was running against him was a racist. An absolute racist. So a lot of Democrats... It is unusual for Democrats vote for Republicans. SM (02:39:16): Do not let the world know that. BS (02:39:19): No, but we had to do it. I mean, the guy would have been even worse than Spiro Agnew. I think he was not a good person. He was caught taking bribe money in the White House. And I mean... SM (02:39:27): Unbelievable. BS (02:39:28): This is not also a very smart person to do that. SM (02:39:31): He could have been president. BS (02:39:32): He could have been. He came very close. Yeah. SM (02:39:36): Some of the women, Gloria at Steinem. BS (02:39:38): I admire Gloria Steinem enormously. We did not have in the Women's Movement, a leader in the sense that one person says everything and we all follow. It is not that organized. But he has been a very thoughtful person throughout. She is a very decent human being. She is very soft-spoken, and people really like her for that because we, she is not quote, abrasive. Or she is going to turn off people. She is very- Quote abrasive or going to turn off people. You are a very attractive woman and so forth, and a very wise person. SM (02:40:06): I tried to interview her, I did not get a response back. BS (02:40:10): She is a very wise woman. She really understands so many of the implications of the women's movement. And her idea with MS was absolutely brilliant because we were at a time where there is nothing being written about women. Serious stuff about women, occasionally they might cover something like the Miss America contest, but there were not thoughtful articles. There was no place for women to go and read these things. They are just beginning in the 1970s. SM (02:40:38): I remember the controversy between her and Jimmy Brown, the football player. Mr. Macho, during the movement. Shere Hite. BS (02:40:48): Shere Hite, she was a reporter? Was she the one who had the abortion? Who am I thinking of? SM (02:40:49): Shere Hite wrote books on women's issues. BS (02:40:57): She wrote something on sexuality. I think, I do not remember, enough. I know. I do not remember enough about her. SM (02:41:03): Betty Friedan? BS (02:41:05): Betty Friedan made an enormous contribution with the Feminine Mystique, there is no question. She gave women permission, as I said before, to be angry at their lives and to examine their lives. She was also an incredibly difficult person to work with. She really was. SM (02:41:25): I know that when I interviewed Charles Kaiser, who wrote 1968, said " I disliked that woman because she was homophobic." That came out of nowhere. BS (02:41:38): She might have been homophobic, early on she might have been, I do not know. I do not think she was later on, but she was difficult to work with and that is enough said. SM (02:41:44): Susan Brownmiller. BS (02:41:47): I do not think I agreed with everything, but I always liked reading people's stuff, even if I disagreed because it would make me think about it and sharpen some of my own. She is good. SM (02:42:00): Yeah, she felt strongly that the pornography issue that she wanted to introduce into the Women's movement, they did not care that much about it, so never became a big issue with the women. BS (02:42:11): It is not so much that the women's movement did not care about it, the women's movement is very amorphous. It includes everybody who thinks they support women to some degree. And probably Sarah Palin would say, she certainly says poor women, whatever. But there is no place that people take a stand and it is like a thousand committees, all of which have some interest in some issues, and the way an issue gets worked on is if enough people want to work on it. And it is not that there was a vote taken and everybody said, we are not going to work on this issue, it is not relevant. That is not what happened. It is just that people were busy with other issues, which they felt were more important. But it is not that the movement turned it down in any official sense, there is no official women's movement. There are groups of people who coalesce around different issues and a lot of people belong to more than one group where they work together with more groups. In the pornographic issue did not catch on, a lot of issues did not catch on. Or a lot of issues caught on in a very small way. So we have a small group of people working on- SM (02:43:30): I have interviewed so many people that one of the interviewees said to me, they said "When they go into the now office, it disappoints them today as opposed to in the (19)70s and the (19)80s. Because all you see is literature on AIDS, literature on sexually transmitted diseases," and what was the other one? "Abortion. And that is all you see, it is like where are the issues, where is the political issues on women's health issues?" BS (02:44:03): Where issues, lots of people on women's Health. SM (02:44:06): And where is the one about the big issue that is really lacking now? Cause my niece has a little baby and it has not been addressed by anyone, is childcare. Not caring in the workforce. Having a room so a mom can go and breastfeed her child without having go in a lady's room. BS (02:44:26): It is not that people do not care and there are people who support it, but there are not enough of them. And the people with childcare and every westernized country has federalized childcare of one sort or another. France, they even have subsidized infant care. I mean, two weeks after your baby's born, you can drop your kid off and they will take care of it. And they do not do it because women are working. They do it because they think children need this kind of development. They get better care and more complex environments than when the mother's home with them. Because she is busy doing other things. She is cleaning, she is cooking, she is shopping and childcare center. They are thinking of the child all day long anyway. But we do not have it because Nixon vetoed bill that would have given it to us. So we do not have it. The people who need it the most are the ones who would be able to work on it if they did not have children at the time. When you have preschool children, you are incredibly busy. I watched my two daughters with their children and both were working. And how hard it was, God forbid the babysitter had a cold. I mean not even seriously ill, but has a cold for a few days. Who comes to take care of your child when you have to be in court that afternoon if you were an attorney or my daughter who is a teacher and has to find a substitute because yes, the kid's babysitter does not show or whatever, happens. And so then by the time they are a little freer, they do not need it as much. It was very hard to get a constituency on that issue. Everybody knows it is important. It is not that they do not care, but for anybody to work on any of these issues, you need some warm bodies. There is no official decision. I mean, now might have decided now would be happy to work on a lot of issues. If five people came in tomorrow and said, we would love to work on pornography, I am sure they would welcome. And they say, and we have a budget of $5,000, week and a half. We pulled some money and we want to write a book or a poster or whatever, or do some research. I do not think now would turn them away. If they, they would work out an agreement. They would not turn them away if they were against looking at that. If they do not have the staff, they do not have the time, they do not have the money. And you got to have that to work on issues. And so sometimes you pick out what is the most visible abortion is. SM (02:46:47): See you are, you are really saying something that is very important seems to be lost. And when people make general statements like the conservatives or the neocons that all the problems that America today can go back to the (19)60s and they blame it all on the drug culture, the sexual- BS (02:47:07): Well, they see those as the major problems. SM (02:47:09): That the word that comes up here is context. There is context to everything. BS (02:47:15): Yeah. SM (02:47:16): And you need to know that nothing is that simple. There is context. So the last ones are going to be Bella Abzug. BS (02:47:30): Loved her. Also, hard to work with, but I absolutely loved her because she continued to do good stuff. She bothered a lot of people because of her style before she got sex discrimination into every bill. And anytime we needed Bella Abzug to support anything, whether it was to get her room in the capitol for reception for something or other, or for her to sponsor a bill or to speak on the floor or to send out a letter to other people, she never said no. That I know of. She, maybe she did, but- SM (02:47:58): She was a civil rights lawyer. BS (02:48:02): She was a civil rights lawyer. And she knew politics or she understood. SM (02:48:04): She was sconce Borough boys, was not her. She- BS (02:48:06): Yeah. Yeah. She was involved early, early, early on. She was involved in civil rights and had a continued interest in civil rights. SM (02:48:15): See, I do not think a lot of people know that. It is context again. They know about her as a congresswoman. They do not know about before congress. BS (02:48:21): Unless you read a bibliography, you are not going to know that. I have forgotten that. But I know what I am, when read the bibliography, it came back to me. But when you and I were talking, I was not thinking of- SM (02:48:29): I know that everybody know that lived in New York said that a lot of people did not like her because she was very loud. BS (02:48:39): She was loud. She got things done. SM (02:48:39): But she was there for the people and she was on the streets. And she went and talked to the people. BS (02:48:40): Absolutely. SM (02:48:41): And many people said they would be walking down New York City and was Bella. BS (02:48:45): Yeah, she was always there. She was always there. SM (02:48:49): Jermaine Greer. BS (02:48:51): Yes. SM (02:48:51): Who has written some. BS (02:48:52): I read a book. I liked her book. Great. I am sure it had a bigger influence in Australia than here. SM (02:48:59): Robin Morgan. BS (02:49:01): Robin Morgan. Robin Morgan still writes. I like some of her writing, some I disagree with. SM (02:49:07): Susan Saluti. BS (02:49:08): Susan Saluti. She is backlash? SM (02:49:12): She is a more recent one. BS (02:49:13): Backlash book? SM (02:49:15): Yeah. BS (02:49:15): She is. She is good. SM (02:49:16): She is smarter than a whip. BS (02:49:17): She is smarter than a whip. SM (02:49:17): I have seen her on TV. BS (02:49:19): And the backlash is real. There is backlash. There are a lot of people who would like to see women go right back to the kitchen. SM (02:49:24): Katherine McKinnon. BS (02:49:26): She is also very good. She did a lot of good early, early thinking on sexual harassment and other legal issues. SM (02:49:34): I want to interview her, but she is too busy. BS (02:49:35): Yeah, she is busy. She is crazy. SM (02:49:37): And Carol Gilligan. BS (02:49:39): Carol. Carol Gilligan. And I have some problems with, because she believes strongly that women have different learning styles. And I am not sure that they do. Because I do not think it is true of all women, any more than I think it is true of all. Men have different one. I think it may be true for a lot of people. I am continually very concerned about what the Bush administration did by allowing single-sex classes and single-sex schools. They changed the regulation of Title ix, which was set up so we would have very few sexual segregation in schools. And the Bush people came up with a new regulation. So we now have more single sex schools than we have had before. And they are based largely on stereotypes and not on research. Now, I do not know if they are using Gilligan's research, but they could easily say they do say women need cooperative learning and so forth and so on. And I really think people need to learn how to be cooperative and learn how to be competitive, to have skills in both areas rather than in just one. So I admire some of her work and I agree with a lot of her work, but I am a little concerned about that. SM (02:50:53): I like Sarah Evans. I think her writing is unbelievable. I interviewed her. BS (02:50:57): Yeah. Who is Sarah Evans? SM (02:50:59): She wrote women's books on the women's movement. She is the University of Minnesota retired. She is a friend. She is with Rosalind Petchesky and Charlotte Bunch. BS (02:51:11): Charlotte Bunch. SM (02:51:13): And Rosalyn Baxandall, who was actually a friend of Carol BS (02:51:24): You know more than I do. SM (02:51:26): And of course Susan Sontag, she is not a, I do not know what you called it her, but she has a written great essays. BS (02:51:35): Yes-yes-yes. SM (02:51:35): She died recently. But. BS (02:51:36): She is good. You know what has happened, this is what I am thinking. SM (02:51:44): What? BS (02:51:45): I am remembering, my kids, when I first get interested in women's issues in the Washington Post, which we get every day at that time. There are no articles about women except fashion and keeping your husband happy and cooking and taking good care of children, housework. And when there is a real article about women and their lives and somewhere, my kids come running upstairs because they eat breakfast before me and they read paper records. They come running up to tell me. And because it is so rare. And at that point, I am buying books about women and I am saying to myself, I will buy every book that is published and I will have a nice library on women. And so I have this nice little library, but I got to stop because the amount of stuff that is been written about women, nobody could buy all the books. And even a library could not buy all the books that are published about women in a single year. That is just too much. Even a woman's library would not be buying every book. SM (02:52:42): Well, the book that would be really good to read is Sarah Evans. Habits of The Heart. BS (02:52:47): Habits of the Heart. SM (02:52:48): I just think she is a real good writer. And she just retired as a professor at the University of Minnesota. I did not think I was going to get her because she is retired, but she was in this group with Charlotte Bunch and Charlotte had recommended that you try to get ahold of her. So I did. And Rosalyn Baxandall is, she was the one that was with Carol Haney, two of the four people who put up the banner in 1968 in Atlantic City. Oh, I did not know that. She teaches at Old Westbury. SUNY Old Westbury. BS (02:53:24): Yeah. SM (02:53:26): Last two questions. Are universities afraid of activism today? Volunteerism is obviously very popular, has been for over 20, 25 years. And most students are involved in volunteer work required in fraternities and sororities and so forth. But I have gotten a sense from my experiences that universities do not like that term activism because it brings back memories. Memories- BS (02:53:51): Of the (19)60s. SM (02:53:51): The (19)60s. BS (02:53:52): Taking over. SM (02:53:54): Disruption of classes, a more radical type of a mentality. And that is my perception. And I am actually going to send my introduction and I will take the heat for it, but I was worked in higher education for 30 years. BS (02:54:12): I think it depends on your definition of activism. If to the extent that activism means kid state for students taking over the president's office, nobody wants that. SM (02:54:22): No. BS (02:54:24): And unless you define activism, because that is one form. SM (02:54:27): Well, that is the lesson that students of the (19)60s should be teaching students today is that you do not do that because it only hurts your message, hurts your cause. BS (02:54:36): Except every now and then they did pay attention. But it is not a long-range strategy. It is a one issue strategy one time. But if that is what you mean by activism, that worries colleges, nasty people can get hurt. It is against fire regulations. I mean, there are all kinds of worries about- SM (02:54:57): I think what I am referring to is the right of assembly. Again, the free speech will the right of assembly to speak, not disrupt classes. I think most students realize they do not want to disrupt classes, not disrupt classes, but the protest on the war in Iraq protest on anything you want to, and what has happened at universities today, they are designating these little spaces for people to, you can protest here. Well, if Mario Savio and the people were around from that era, you have got to be kidding me. I got to go in front of the, this particular, this little square is the only place I can, so there is some things happening here that are really fishy. BS (02:55:42): Yeah, I have not seen this. And my contact with most colleges is a one-time visit. SM (02:55:48): Right. BS (02:55:49): And I read the Chronicle. SM (02:55:51): I have not been reading that lately. I did for a while, but I am reading books now. BS (02:55:56): Well I, well, I get it because I am still working directly with colleges. And I think people generally, most of us like things as they are. And if you are dissatisfied, you want to shake up the boat and how much schools will tolerate this. On the other hand, academics are very protective of academic freedom and the freedom of speech. And you do get people who really upset other people coming to campus. I mean, you get Palestinians coming to campus and saying dreadful things and often untrue things, but they have a right to say what they have to say. And you have people opposed to the war or supporting the war. And schools cannot discourage that and take great pride. And they often are in a position where they have to allow people they totally disagree with, but you cannot keep them off campus. And they understand under the rubric of academic freedom, which only applies across to professors, but they understand the needed freedom of speech. Certainly. So I do not see the fear of activism. I think they do not want the (19)60s to come back with people breaking windows, climbing into offices, having bombs like in Minnesota, which killed people. Coburn died. SM (02:57:16): That was Wisconsin. Yeah. BS (02:57:16): Wisconsin, you are right. Was not Minnesota. I am sorry. I am from New York these middle states all somewhat similar, but I think people worry about that kind of thing and do not want that to return because there are real safety issues here. SM (02:57:31): We had activist days on our campus that our department started and we had Tom Hayden, Daniel Berrigan, we had Philip Berrigan, we had- BS (02:57:42): Yeah. Good people. SM (02:57:42): -Torie Osborn. BS (02:57:43): Shake people up. SM (02:57:44): We had Alice Kesler Harris and Morne Pretorius from South Africa. And we also did the readings of Howard Zen and I was asked to stop them. BS (02:57:57): Oh, to stop them? SM (02:57:58): Yeah. To stop the active state. BS (02:58:01): Well, I think you would still find some people who would ask you to do that. I do not think they are all gone and that they are all happy with- SM (02:58:08): I think they were worried that it was sending the wrong message or whatever it might be. BS (02:58:13): But they cannot stop you though. SM (02:58:15): Well, no. They- BS (02:58:15): They pay a price for it. SM (02:58:17): Well, but they told me as an administrator that since your department is doing them, and even though you are getting other departments to sponsor the speakers, reception is that you are in charge of them. And so you must end them. Yeah. BS (02:58:32): I think that would still happen to some degree, because you can use that if people work for you. The students do not work for the college and you cannot expel them for that reason. So they are still controlled, particularly the administrators for the faculty, it is easier for them to do what they want. Yeah, because they have tenure. SM (02:58:49): Yeah. Administrators is a little tough. BS (02:58:53): Yeah. Well, yeah. If not, you do not have tenure as an administrator, so they are really saying the subtext of what they said is either cut it out or leave. SM (02:59:05): They did not say that. BS (02:59:06): They do not say it. But that is the subtext. SM (02:59:08): And they were packed. BS (02:59:09): Yeah. SM (02:59:09): We were getting attendance like crazy. BS (02:59:12): Yeah. And you should. And college is supposed to be where we learn different things about different points of view. SM (02:59:21): The conservatives are Barry Goldwater obviously, and Bill Buckley were major conservatives for the (19)60s generation. But then you have today people like Anne Colter and Michelle Mulkin who are- BS (02:59:34): Yeah, we do have women commentators. SM (02:59:36): Yeah, commentators who are really popular on college campuses. And they are kind of like the Phyllis Schlafly's of yester year, so to speak. What are your thoughts on the conservatives? The conservatives overall? Just your thoughts on the them. BS (02:59:51): I am clearly not a conservative. SM (02:59:53): Yeah. BS (02:59:53): As you have probably noticed. SM (02:59:55): And these people are very critical of probably the women's movement. BS (03:00:01): Some of their, they tend to be more critical in terms of pro-choice issues. I do not think I have heard them say, "Let us get rid of Title IX." They may have concerns about men's athletics, but those are financial decisions, not legal issues. When schools get rid of a particular, they can choose to do whatever they want as long as they have equal equitable opportunities for men and women. And if they want to have a football team with over a hundred slots on it, you know, you have got to have, have proportional opportunities for women. SM (03:00:36): Right. BS (03:00:41): But I am just thinking with the abortion issue is an important one. None of these women are saying women should be staying home and not working. And I think many of them recognize they would not be where they were, where they are, if it were not for the women's movement. They may not understand some of the basic underlying tenets of the women's movement in terms of its egalitarianism and in terms of opportunities and in terms of being good on gay issues and looking at the plight of immigrant women and all of those things. Some of the political issues they may not side on all of them, but I am just thinking because I have not thought this through before. SM (03:01:27): Yeah. Bay Bucannon is in that group too. Bay Bucannon, Michelle Easton. BS (03:01:33): Michelle, I have seen. SM (03:01:33): Michelle is nice. BS (03:01:36): I have seen her and I have seen Walter. SM (03:01:36): And her husband. Ron Robinson is the Young America Foundation. BS (03:01:39): Yeah. But the abortion issue is a very powerful issue. But if you put that one aside, I do not think they are that much against women's issues. If you define women's issues as sexual harassment and equal opportunity and schools and in employment and things like that. I think they know that they would not have the jobs they have. I am sure they have- SM (03:02:06): They have issues with women's studies and things like that. BS (03:02:09): Women's studies. Yeah. Well, because they do not know the women's history. SM (03:02:12): This is it. BS (03:02:13): They do not know women's history. SM (03:02:15): But the presidents, again, I made reference to them, but those presidents between Truman, Obama, what of which presence do you feel have been most supportive of women's issues? Not only what may only have been through their- BS (03:02:31): Probably Clinton. SM (03:02:33): Not through their deeds, through their actions, through their legislation they pushed, maybe it was not passed, but that they truly cared about women. BS (03:02:42): I think Clinton probably cares the most. Carter seemed to be quite good on a number of these issues as well. Nixon was not very good, but he did not veto Title IX either. And he made some interesting decisions. The White House had some decisions that granted, he may have to stop paying attention to some of these decisions because of Watergate. But there was a decision made at the White House is should Title IX cover athletics? There is no mention of athletics, although it says it covers everything. But the White House had to make a decision in terms of the regulation, will it cover athletics or just say nothing? And they decided to cover athletics. And I met with someone, myself and another woman met with the person who was handling that, who fortunately just had a baby girl. But Nixon had the final say. I also filed charges under this executive order. The Nixon administration amended that order to include affirmative action. Affirmative action does not start with the Democrats. It starts with the Republicans. And in fact, this is a lovely story, the President of Columbia University is asked by the head of the office of Federal Contract Compliance, who is giving a speech or visiting with somehow, or he is talking to, this is the- SM (03:04:03): Current president. No- BS (03:04:07): No-no-no. This- SM (03:04:07): Is Grayson Kirk. BS (03:04:08): This is during the no-no-no-no-no. Nixon days. Nixon. Nixon. This is, I remember I am a Democrat, but this is Nixon. Yeah. Nixon makes a decision. So I am going to have to make that decision. Should they be doing affirmative action with colleges and universities? Because the executive order is set up by Johnson and his predecessors, because there are several, but get a little better over time is set up really for contractors. And when they are thinking contractors, they are thinking construction contracts, ship building contracts. They are not thinking of colleges having contracts. Was not intended for that. But it is not written that way. But the intent was to go after the construction jobs because that is where the blacks could get hired, hired. So there, now I come filing all these charges. I filed over 250 of them and probably one another, a hundred or so that others did. And the issue is, what do we do about colleges and universities? Do they get affirmative action requirements too? And Nixon's White House made the decision, "yes", fast forwards to Columbia University, president of Columbia University is talking to head of affirmative action or office facility. Oh, I got to find out who that was. I have it at home. But in any event- SM (03:05:26): The president? BS (03:05:27): The President of Columbia. SM (03:05:27): I think it is Grayson Kirk. BS (03:05:29): I am not sure I can find out, but I love the story. Does not matter who it is. Okay. And this person who is working for the government says, "So how are you doing, Mr. President of Columbia University, how you doing on affirmative action?" And he says, "We are doing just fine. We disappointed the first black and the first woman to our law school." And you know who that first woman was? SM (03:05:56): To Columbia? Well, it is not Hillary. She went to Yale. BS (03:06:01): No, it is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. SM (03:06:03): Oh, really? BS (03:06:04): Yes. Is not that a fabulous story? SM (03:06:07): That is a great story. See, that is a magic moment. Yeah. That is one of those magic moments. BS (03:06:12): Oh, okay. Well if you use it, I will find out. The president and I have the quote posted. SM (03:06:16): Kirk may have left after that because he was pressured to leave because of the student protest. BS (03:06:23): It was an interview with Ruth Bader Ginsburg within the past year or so on the New York Times Magazine section. And I cut it out and I gave it to the guy at the office of Federal Contract Compliance, who gave me all the ideas of how I should file these things. And I sent it to him and I said, "Vince," his name is Vincent Macaluso. So I said, "Vince, you did this." SM (03:06:46): What do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation when, well, I mentioned that the civil war generation, that guy who was in 1924 was the last one who actually fought in the battle, any battle of the Civil War. What do you think the history books, the sociology books will say about this generation that grew up after World War ii, whether it be to the women boomers or the male boomers to the 74 million? Because they still have 20 years of life. They are only in 64. BS (03:07:20): Until their (19)80s. SM (03:07:21): So they still got a fourth of their life still ahead of them. BS (03:07:24): Yeah. SM (03:07:26): But do you think, when do you think? There we go. BS (03:07:33): Yeah, I would like to say that I really do not have a clue. I think they had an impact on loosening up society. Society was still dealing with a lot of rigidity from the past. And we still have some of those rigidities, but they did loosen up. They questioned a lot of things and people questioned, they heard the question raised, you have to think about it even if you do not do anything about it. And I think that may be part of their legacy. If they shook things up. They said, we do not like the way this is. We do not like the president of our college treats, whatever. And nobody maybe had ever thought of that before or noticed if before. And I think they were very good in raising new issues that people had not bought up. At least the radical part of the mover did. On a more superficial level they certainly got rid of the way people dressed. I watched in this building, which I came to in 1990, and I wore pantsuit every day. And everybody was dressed and men were dressed in suits and women were dressed very nicely. Now you go in the elevator and it is just a few men dressed in a suit. And they are the lawyers or the realtors. Everybody else was wearing jeans or I- SM (03:08:56): I saw a guy came in here. I think he was a lawyer from his, and he was in shorts. He just done a run around town. He had pony tail. He was sweating. BS (03:09:01): In this office or in the building? SM (03:09:01): No, I think it was on two floors up or one floor up. BS (03:09:08): Oh, okay. Yeah-yeah. No, they are like, it is perfectly acceptable to come that way to work. I mean, I get dressed if I am doing something really, I do not want to say this was not professional, but I am talking professional organization or I do not know what the word would be. But I felt comfortable enough. I said, if you no professional, I do not have to get dressed. That is a huge thing actually. I mean, it sounds like its superficial dress, but it tells you a lot about where this is what the society feels about how you announce yourself to other people. Because that is what clothing is. It says, look who I am. And people's way of dressing is more egalitarian. And to the extent that the civil rights movement was part of the boomers, not the only thing going on, but the boomers were a part of it. Not the civil rights were part of boomers with the other direction. And that women were part of the women's movement from the boomers. Some of the boomers were in the women's movement. I mean, and you can find other areas like that where the boomers had a lasting effect. The women, oncologists, this is the reason we were going talk about this. Young colleges were more organized in terms of women's issues than any place else in this society. Because you have a lot of young people who have time on their hands. And a lot of them, not all of them, are interested in social issues. And you could find discrimination very easily in the college. The women in Michigan becomes a public issue to some degree when they cannot take this course in juvenile delinquency because they will have to deal with male students. So that is very visible when you hear about this. And finally, once the lawyers get involved, they make an announcement it is time change that. So you have people who are very aware and are raising these issues, and there are enough issues to raise at that point. That very can become very visible once you notice them. SM (03:11:03): And those issues back in the (19)60s now when students do not have as much time, because they work. BS (03:11:09): That is right they work. Some of them work harder, they work physically, they have other jobs work. SM (03:11:13): And a lot of them did not work back when I was in school. BS (03:11:16): That is true. Yeah. SM (03:11:17): Any other thoughts? I know we have covered just about everything. BS (03:11:20): Well, yeah, I think we have covered enough. SM (03:11:24): Yeah. BS (03:11:24): But I realize I am not a- the boomer generation. My kids are. SM (03:11:28): One third of my interviewees have been boomers, but they- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bernice Sandler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sandler, Bernice Resnick ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Women's rights—United States; Human rights workers; United States.--Education Amendments of 1972.--Title IX; Sandler, Bernice Resnick--Interviews Description An account of the resource Bernice Sandler is an educator, consultant, and women's rights activist, best known for being instrumental in the creation of Title IX. She has received numerous awards and honors for her work on women’s rights and was inducted into the Maryland Women's Hall of Fame And the National Women's Hall of Fame. Dr. Sandler currently acts as a Senior Scholar at the Women’s Research and Education Institute in Washington, DC Sandler received her Master's degree of Clinical and School Psychology from the City College of New York and her Ed.D. from the University of Maryland in Counseling and Personnel Services. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-10-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.149a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.149b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 191:46 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/183db5bee40dd75dede571b03de16c24.jpg c2c7fb36c1385417493e246a393c2c9a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bc0cee0a0499c3e1e3c87e4b7ad2c74a.mp3 074b152394a8b510d49a859335087f77 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William H. (William Howard) Josephson, 1934- Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 85:43 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Bill Josephson is an attornay and author. Currently, he serves as the senior advisor for the Sargent Shriver Peace Institute. Josephson received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and his Juris Doctor degree from the Columbia University School of Law. He also studied at the New School for Social Research and St. Antony’s College, Oxford University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15107,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;open_sansregular, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Bill Josephson is an attorney and author. Currently, he serves as the senior advisor for the Sargent Shriver Peace Institute. Josephson received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and his Juris Doctor degree from the Columbia University School of Law. He also studied at the New School for Social Research and St. Antony’s College, Oxford University.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Henry Kissinger; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Peace Corps; AmeriCorps; Vietnam Memorial; 14th Dalai Lama; Sargent Shriver; Trust; Tom Hayden; Berry Brown; Jane Fonda; Pentagon Papers; George Mcgovern; Shirley Chisholm; Students for a Democratic Society; John Lennon.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Baby boom generation; Henry Kissinger; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Peace Corps; AmeriCorps; Vietnam Memorial; 14th Dalai Lama; Sargent Shriver; Trust; Tom Hayden; Berry Brown; Jane Fonda; Pentagon Papers; George Mcgovern; Shirley Chisholm; Students for a Democratic Society; John Lennon.</span> Subject LCSH Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Josephson, William H. (William Howard), 1934--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill Josephson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Josephson, William H. (William Howard), 1934- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Josephson, William H. (William Howard), 1934--Interviews Description An account of the resource Bill Josephson is an attorney and author. Currently, he serves as the senior advisor for the Sargent Shriver Peace Institute. Josephson received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and his Juris Doctor degree from the Columbia University School of Law. He also studied at the New School for Social Research and St. Antony’s College, Oxford University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.132a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.132b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 85:43 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b89a5d08a08954b62c4d47fe0e16ab26.jpg 03198c17fb2c2298098fe26085eb78bc https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1c8cdbc11084b50b1d1bb92ce849cdeb.mp3 1cc31cdc9881cea5c8f258e6596492b8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-02-09 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bob Fass, 1933- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Bob Fass, a native of Brooklyn, NY, is a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, Radio Unnameable. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He has a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show is still on air. You can tune in every Thursday night from midnight until 3:00 am.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13057,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Bob Fass (June 29, 1933 – April 24, 2021), a native of Brooklyn, NY, was a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, <em>Radio Unnameable</em>. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He had a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show was on the air until his death.&nbsp;</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Theater; Nina Simone; Hippies; Yippies; Black Power; Julius Lester; Sexual revolution; Birth control pill; Counterculture; Generation gap; Jim Webb; Baby boom generation; Voting; Radio show; Musicians; Bob Dylan; Gulley Jimson; WBAI; WFMU; The Horse's Mouth.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13228792}}">Theater; Nina Simone; Hippies; Yippies; Black Power; Julius Lester; Sexual revolution; Birth control pill; Counterculture; Generation gap; Jim Webb; Baby boom generation; Voting; Radio show; Musicians; Bob Dylan; Gulley Jimson; WBAI; WFMU; The Horse's Mouth.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 223:03 Subject LCSH Radio broadcasters; Soldiers; Fass, Bob, 1933--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bob Fass Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fass, Bob, 1933- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Radio broadcasters; Soldiers; Fass, Bob, 1933--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Bob Fass, a native of Brooklyn, NY, is a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, Radio Unnameable. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He has a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show is still on air. You can tune in every Thursday night from midnight until 3:00 am.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13057,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Bob Fass (June 29, 1933 – April 24, 2021), a native of Brooklyn, NY, was a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, <em>Radio Unnameable</em>. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He had a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show was on the air until his death.&nbsp;</span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-02-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.50a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.50b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 223:03 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/11e96e7b6f69bdd302e037857363dbd3.jpeg 25968e418b636a12ce371c37e884d620 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c0f0f216fe0ed4a578bcad7eee85f77c.mp3 8830f30d5cf228b4e9400020677347e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-01-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bruce Margolin Biographical Text Bruce Margolin is a criminal defense attorney who specializes in marijuana and drug laws. Margolin grew up in Los Angeles, California. He has been practicing law since he was 25 years old, after earning his law degree from Southwestern Law School in 1966. In 1999, Margolin was awarded the Criminal Defense Attorney of the Year award by the Century City Bar Association. He has been executive director of the LA chapter of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws since 1973. He is the writer of the Margolin Guide to Marijuana Law. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:38:32 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Law; drugs; Los Angeles; The trip to India; Criminal attorney; Practising law in California; Late 1960s; Communal movement. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bruce Margolin IIIF Item Metadata UUID 9ccbbf0b-f678-4838-8442-713a713cbf37 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bfbc9010bb6a622230d65c2e5f0c0053.mp3 1d9e963c92e51f94281ffbf16692a585 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6f7680f6f0427c6f48f1624b976e9f90.jpg 765c628fe2614bbf34440c64eacf8e9d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Carol Reisner Year of Graduation 1966 Biographical Text Carol worked as a branch librarian with the NYPL for 34 years. She grew up in the Bronx. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the library profession; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the library profession; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Carol K. Reisner Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 19 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) CR: 00:04 Now? IG: 00:04 Yes. CR: 00:05 Okay. My name is Carol Kraut Reisner. We are sitting in in Manhattan, 105th Street and West End Avenue. I will soon be 72 in another couple of weeks, and I graduated from Harpur in 1966. IG: 00:28 And just tell us what you do. CR: 00:35 I am now retired, but I worked for about almost 34 years, 33 years as a librarian for the New York Public Library in the branches, among other things, I was most of the time a young adult librarian, until, as they say in the brownies, I flew up and I became an adult librarian and I-I enjoyed the variety and connection with the public and books and stuff. So, most of my career, I was very happy. IG: 01:16 That is wonderful. Um, where did you grow up? CR: 01:20 I grew up in the Bronx. I am happy to say that the Bronx is coming back, but I grew up at a time where I think back you played in the street, you did not- parents did not worry about that. I went to public schools. I have gone back to my neighborhood, and then happy to see my building is still standing and looking not looking bad, though there are other buildings in the neighborhood that were torn down. It was a mixed neighborhood of Catholics and Jews. I would say lower middle class Catholic and Jews. And now it is much more Latino than it that is the Bronx. IG: 02:11 Right. CR: 02:15 It was a long walk to school. I remember that I was at the edge of our- the boundary of the school district from elementary school, but I did go every day, came home for lunch every day, and near public transportation, not far from shopping, not too close to parks, but we so we played in the street and um, thought nothing of it. IG: 02:41 It was a different time. CR: 02:42 Absolutely a different time. Absolutely a different time. IG: 02:45 Where you felt safer to be on the street. CR: 02:48 Oh, absolutely I was- when I became a parent, we did not let our children play outside on the street by themselves. IG: 02:56 Who were your parents? What did they do? CR: 03:00 I had one first I want to say that I did not know it at the time, but knowing people and their experiences are wonderful parents who did their best. My father was born in Poland, and I see him as a typical immigrant. Thank God he was able to come with his family. In 1922 with his mother and his brothers and sisters, not knowing English, he was sponsored by an uncle who apparently brought the whole family over. To me my father represents the Americans, the American success story of someone who came, went to school, who married, had a family, had his own business, who never imagined and he was handicapped. He had had polio in-in Europe. So, he-he told me at the end of his life that he had a marvelous life, better than he had ever imagined it, he-he could have. IG: 04:10 That is lovely. CR: 04:11 My mother was born here, but her mother came from Europe. She was one of nine. My father was one of five. CR: 04:20 So, what did your father end up doing? CR: 04:21 My father had a collection agency, and that is he worked for others for years, and then he opened, had his own business. My mother, my mother did graduate from college. I think she was the only one in her family. She went to Hunter, but she graduated in 1933 in the middle of the Depression, and she could not get a job, and so she did various and sundries, and it was until much later, in fact, when I was in college, that she went back and picked up whatever ed courses she needed. And she worked several years as a sub, particularly for kindergarten, early grade. Why? So that she could help put my brother through law school. IG: 04:22 Wow. CR: 04:22 And I think my father had some college, but so that was that. I mean, I do not know what else to tell you about my parents. IG: 04:22 Right. So-so, you know that-that is, that. I just need a little bit of background. So did they encourage you with your education [crosstalk] CR: 04:22 There was never a question that we were going to college. That was not a question. When I went to library school, they told me what, they were not good. They were not going to pay for that. And I said, "What kind of parent are you? You are not going to pay for your-" and I- they did not, I mean, they said that we-we paid for undergraduate school, which was a stretch. My brother have not had an older brother who went to City College, so they did not pay for that, right? So, sending me away was a big deal. IG: 05:55 So, you did not get a regent scholarship. CR: 05:57 I did get a regent scholarship, but they still had to pay for room and board. IG: 06:00 Yes. CR: 06:00 Which I know in the, in the in dollars today, seems like chicken feed, but it was $1,000 a year was not nothing. IG: 06:08 No, exactly. CR: 06:10 And, and so they said, "No, you will have to get a loan." And I did get it- I got a loan that I think I had to pay something like $27 a month for, I do not know how I did pay it off. IG: 06:24 Right. So, what were- what was your thinking about Harpur College? Why-why did you want to go there rather than to CUNY here, to Hunter College, or it was, or any other SUNY? CR: 06:40 It was an opportunity for me to go away from home, and believe it or not, my-my mother encouraged me to do that. She wanted me to do that. And I certainly applied to city. And I think I applied to city, I applied to Brandeis, and I applied to Harpur, and it did not get into Brandeis, which is probably good idea. And there it was. We had visited Harpur. It was small, which I thought might be a good idea. That is where I was accepted, and that is where I went. I had come from a very big high school, which I cannot say that I loved. High school was not the best years of my life. And there we were. I was accepted. It was, you know, I was something that they could afford. And off I went. IG: 07:28 What was the reputation of Harpur back then that you knew of? CR: 07:41 It was excellent. IG: 07:42 It was excellent. CR: 07:43 [crosstalk] only Harpur College. It was the liberal arts college of this- of SUNY, of State University, had a very good reputation, good enough for me. And I think I tell I think that it lived up to its reputation. I thought it was an extraordinary school, looking, seeing where my kids went, rigorous. I think the kids who went there were really sharp. The teachers were not all, of course, not all, but I had more than my share of superior teachers. CR: 08:27 I was very young. I would never, I- IG: 08:29 Right. IG: 08:29 How old were you? CR: 08:32 I was, I was 16. IG: 08:34 Yeah. CR: 08:35 I never think that that is a good idea. On the other hand, because it was a smaller school. It was not and I had my first boyfriend, so I, you know, I, for me, it was fine. It was what I could handle. One of your questions, I remember things, did you think it was a party school? Oh, my God, what a question. It was the anti-party school. At least for me, it was the anti-party school. People study. I mean, worked all the time. I remember I had a boyfriend who perhaps was not as studious as I-I said, “Well, I am sorry, got to do my homework” and-and people did. I mean, I am sure there was, there were kids who hang out, hung out in the student center, and played bridge. And I was not that. I was not that. IG: 09:30 What did you study? CR: 09:31 I was, in the parlance of Harpur, I was a social science major with a specialization in history, which meant there was a lot of reading. IG: 09:40 Why did you choose that area of studies? CR: 09:43 I love history. IG: 09:45 So, did you have an idea of what that would entail? When you- CR: 09:49 Did I know the rigor of what it was, [crosstalk] I mean, I love, I still love history? I love history. IG: 09:57 Right-right. CR: 09:57 So, there was no, I had no-I did not hem and haw. IG: 10:01 Right. CR: 10:02 American history, I took because I figured it was a little bit less, you know, spread out. It was something that could be, could actually be studied in a- IG: 10:16 Right. CR: 10:18 Oh, no, I had these. I had wonderful history teachers. IG: 10:21 Well, could you name- CR: 10:23 Dr. Mason [Bernard Mason]. IG: 10:25 Right. CR: 10:25 I had for several classes. I used to say that, and unfortunately, I know he has died, but his class, you got three in one, you got his lectures, you got the readings and you got your paper. I took many of his courses. He was actually my advisor. Dr. Rollins [Alfred Rollins], who was another wonderful teacher, I think, was 20th century. Dr. House [Albert House], [inaudible] for Civil War era. Those are the ones that I have not I did not look them up. I do not remember so much the others, but those are the names that just come immediately off the top of my head. IG: 11:14 What-what are some of the illuminating things that you learned from your professors that you did not know before about America and your life? CR: 11:26 You know, everybody takes American history in high school. So, taking American history in college was a revelation, because you got to understand in a way you did not in high school, that nothing was inevitable, as we feel, oh, the American Revolution, of course, we were going to win. Ah, not so fast. Things had to happen that there are more than one way of looking at things there the economic interpretation of American history, which was more in vogue in the (19)60s. One of the papers I had to write was answering a question, which was that, was it maybe about Hamilton, the views, was it Hamilton or in the world's history about Catherine, the Great. You-you had to read the historians from different eras and how their-their feelings about it, how they approached their conclusions were different with the times. And I did not know that from my high school. It was so much. It was it just opened your eyes. It just opened your eyes. In fact, I even remember the little books we have. Probably still have them, the different interpretations of a particular event that was exciting. And actually, as a result of that, I decided I would not teach American history in high school. I would be a teacher because I felt that I would not be able to do that in high school, and that it would be, it would not be right, it would sort of be a, sort of a lie. That is what made it very exciting. And he and right, even then now, compared to what now, it is included that women did not get a big shake and-and we did not hear about the so much about African American take on things. I mean, obviously history, the study of history, changes over time. But even then, it was just an eye opening, eye opening to me. IG: 13:46 Did that inform the way that you looked at current events? CR: 14:04 Oh, yeah, it still does. IG: 14:06 Yeah. CR: 14:06 It still does. And I and, yes, we do not repeat history. But if you do not know history, you do not know how we got here, and we did not just, you just, you know, it is not like a baby just is born with nothing we have, and other countries have history. And I think it is a- it is really too bad that our country as a whole does not have a sense of history. They think they just live now. They do not remember anything. They do not know why we got here. They-they and is it the fault of our education system, perhaps. That is right, they do not make connections. And yes, it does not do it does indeed inform how I look at things and what I believe IG: 14:55 And what you believe. CR: 14:56 Yes. IG: 14:57 How-how? Well, I mean, you just stated your beliefs that there is- CR: 15:04 Because there are different ways of looking at things, and if you get one point of view all the time, you are getting one point of view. IG: 15:11 Yeah, of course. Um, you know, there are different truths, there are different perspectives on each issue, which-which pivotal events of the time. The (19)60s were very turbulent years. You know the- CR: 15:32 I cannot say- IG: 15:33 -fabric of our culture changed. What events do you remember from your um- CR: 15:40 I cannot say that I participated in them. I do, but I do remember that there was a group of people who would not eat lunch and say that they wanted the money that was saved by not only going to a certain anti-war organization, it was their protest. I did not participate in that. That that was even I became much more aware of that in the in the (19)70s than I did in (19)60s. I was not a rebel. I- so I, and I am still really not a rebel, depending on who you who-who you speak to. IG: 16:29 Right. CR: 16:31 Certainly, that was going on, um, the-the-the freedom, the sexual revolution. I did not participate in that kind of thing. What I do remember was that when I started at Harpur, there, you had to be in your room at 10:30 there was room check by the RIS. By the time I graduated, I and when I got there, seniors had the privilege of having a card that they could stay at whatever time. I think it was a junior. You got two of them, maybe as a as a sophomore. I remember if you got one night that you could check, you know, did not have to be back by, just by the time, by the time I graduated, I think everybody could get a card to check out, you know, that kind of stuff. IG: 17:26 Just remind us, what year did you graduate? CR: 17:29 I graduated (19)66. IG: 17:30 Okay. CR: 17:31 (19)62 to (19)66. I remember being annoyed. We were all annoyed because it was the senior privilege, and now it was not such a privilege anymore, because everybody had it. So, I am thinking back and of the other it was mostly the war not not the cultural stuff of freedom for women or gays were not a part of it at that time, sexual revolution, I am sure there was. I did not smoke pot. I just- I was not- IG: 18:09 You were very young also. CR: 18:10 I was very young and pretty naive. You know, I was not one of the swinger city kids. IG: 18:19 Right. CR: 18:22 So, I do not remember really participating in any of those. IG: 18:26 Did you participate in any other student groups? CR: 18:31 It was not- no, I was not a big joiner. I remember I tried out for a play once, but I did not. I cannot remember if I did I to- I do not, I do not remember. No, I was not active. It was almost as if that is a I had my schoolwork. I had a boyfriend, which was a big deal for me. I had my-my I did not have that many friends, but my roommate and I were good friends. In fact, we still are, and had some others that and, and that was as much as I could handle to tell you the truth. IG: 19:08 Yeah, probably. CR: 19:09 It was for me. It was, [crosstalk] I look back, I thought about it, and I- IG: 19:14 Because you were a young person, yeah. CR: 19:14 I am sorry that I did not spend more time socializing, because when all of a sudden, done. You make friends there that sometimes you keep them for life. And what I have learned, you know, what have, do not always, I do not remember. IG: 19:32 Okay, but you know, what were you mentioned the Vietnam War? What were your feelings about that and, and what did your friends discuss [crosstalk] right- about it? CR: 19:47 So, I think when I started out, I thought, "Oh, well, you have to support your government." IG: 19:52 Right. CR: 19:53 Like, again, the old thing, government is right. They have a point. Otherwise, you would not be doing this. And then, as you start, you know, reading a little more, or talking to people, or they you get, you start questioning. I certainly was not in favor by the end, by the time I left, and I do remember after I graduated, I remember going down with other people to Washington from, you know, these marches that there was a big- IG: 20:26 With people, other people, not from Harpur? CR: 20:30 After, right after library school even. IG: 20:33 Were you afraid that your boyfriend might get drafted? Was there that [crosstalk] or was that too early? CR: 20:43 I do not remember conversations about that. I do not remember I do not remember that being in front and center. I had an older brother, and he was given a medical deferment. So, there must have been, we did not know that there must, but I think that was also later, because they were still in school and-and I think they were going on, so maybe there was more talk about it. And since I do not remember, I do not remember anybody tearing up there, you know, you start, start mixing up events, and I do not really know remember if there was anything like that on campus at the time, earning of the draft cards. IG: 21:44 Do you remember Kennedy's assassination? CR: 21:46 Oh-oh! IG: 21:47 Where were you? CR: 21:47 Oh, okay, I will tell you exactly where I was. I was in my history class; I think a Dr. Mason class. We were early, right? And one of the guys I had befriended, who had been in the army, he was older, so I think I was there at one class started at 10 after one, at about five after one, he pops he saw me, pops in, and he said, Kennedy's been shot. And when the- our professor walked in, and somebody said about, he said, "What?" And he dismissed us, and we went, I went to this to the Student Center, to the snack bar, and found people, and I think we were listening on the radio, because I do not remember exactly when he was pronounced dead. It was in the afternoon, I think, and it was like, "Oh my God." And I think we watched the funeral on television. IG: 22:57 Right. CR: 22:57 And also remember, were not we there in the Cuban Missile Crisis. IG: 23:04 Right. CR: 23:04 That was another time people were really scared about that. They were very scared. Why was it during, why do I remember sitting also in the cafeteria, and it was dark and talking about and worrying what the hell was going on, that this was not a joke. And, you know, nuclear weapons, and was there going to be a war? I cannot- is that interesting? Cannot remember the dates, but I remember, really, people were scared. IG: 23:38 Right. Were you afraid? What-what-what were your fears about the Kennedy assassination, that something- CR: 23:47 Oh, my God, that something like that- IG: 23:49 -terrible would happen, that something like that, the assassination itself- CR: 23:53 -could happen, and then we will, we will, you know what it all mean. And I think, I think it was just the shock of somebody killing you, President. IG: 24:05 Right. That we were so vulnerable. CR: 24:08 Whoever heard of that we did not know. I mean, later on, you know, you found out that, that it was before us when Harry Truman also was subject to assassination, we but we did not know that I was- IG: 24:20 Right, but Lincoln- CR: 24:22 And that, yeah, Lincoln, look at all you know, when the country was in turmoil. Oh, my God. I mean, that was before all the others that happened, that the commonplaceness of assassination and killing, this was, it was like, almost unbelievable. IG: 24:44 So somehow, you know your CR: 24:47 It is[crosstalk] your foundation, I mean [crosstalk] IG: 24:49 Right, exactly. CR: 24:50 It does. It does. IG: 24:51 That is what I would think. CR: 24:52 Yeah. IG: 24:55 So, when you graduated, um, uh, what was, you know, give us an overview of your career trajectory. Did you go on to graduate school or- CR: 25:08 Yes. IG: 25:08 -right away? And where did you go? Where did you live? CR: 25:11 I-I remember going to my guidance counselor in the, I think, the end of my first term of my senior year, when he had to start thinking, and I had decided when teach, that is what I had decided. So, what was I going to do? Actually, went because I had no clue. And I remember him, and I do not remember who he was. Was-was it Dr. Mason, I do not remember if it was, if he was my it could have been, he said, "Well," he said, whoever said, "Two possibilities, you could go into museum work and you can get a master's in museum work at the University of Maryland." IG: 25:57 Yeah. CR: 25:57 That [inaudible] museum work, whatever- for some reason- IG: 26:01 Why did he suggest that? Why did he- because of history. CR: 26:04 Because of history, I love history, um that that was a something that might be helpful, and all I could think of was cut and pasting, making signs do I cannot cut and paste for beans. And the other thing was to become an archivist and go to library school. Oh, well, that sounded okay, and that is what I did. Great. I applied to graduate school, and I went to have decisions get made. I was this. I applied. I did not want to go home either. I did not want to go to New York. I did not want I did not want to go Columbia. So, I applied to University of Michigan, and actually the University of Wisconsin, and I was accepted, but the guy was dating was going to the University of Wisconsin, and I thought it would be a better idea not to go to the same place. And I went to University of Michigan. It was a very different experience. Let us- IG: 27:16 Because it was larger? CR: 27:17 It was huge, a whole different experience. Let us just say that I always give money to Binghamton or SUNY, which maybe they do not think it is enough, but I always give money. I have a very and I never give money to Michigan, one because it is so big. I was only there for a year. I mean, that was the good thing about my masters, that it was, it was only 30 credits. I could do it in a year or a little more. I did not have to take, I could take two courses outside of library school, which I took, one in history and one in geography. You can see, and you know, is okay. It was okay. I always felt that the-the campus itself was an interesting the first semester, I lived off campus, what a disaster that is, and I finagled my way the second semester into living closer to the campus in an apartment. I always thought that there was a great divide between the undergraduates and the graduates, the-the undergraduates I stereotype as sweater sets and the graduate students like me. You know, schlubbies here. I remember going to them. This is- we went, we went to the football games. I thought this was a hoot coming from Harpur. The first thing you IG: 28:45 Which had no sports to speak of. CR: 28:47 Well, they did. They had a track and field then basketball, but they would not [crosstalk] and I graduated. No, it expanded because it was starting these graduate programs. But the first day on campus at the University of Michigan, you learned two things. You learned to hate Michigan State, and you learned this fight song. I thought, I thought this was crazy. [laughs] IG: 29:14 Do you remember the fight song? CR: 29:16 Of course, hail to Michigan. IG: 29:22 Yeah. CR: 29:23 it was, it was a hoot, [crosstalk] it was a hoot. And I was library schools is library school. That is a whole other world of experience. IG: 29:34 Okay, so you graduated- CR: 29:35 And I graduated from there, [crosstalk] and I came back to New York after toying with the idea of going to California, until I realized I did not know a soul there, and even more important, I do not drive, which I still do not drive, and I thought that- IG: 29:52 Woman, a woman after my heart, I am learning. CR: 29:57 Well anyway, it is good for you, because I am- one of the- that is probably the most, the most important thing I wish I had mastered. I am not going to do it now. I am and that is where I live in New York and but I came back home. I lived at home for a year because while my parents- let me, we are happy to have me home and-and when I said, "No, I am going to move out," they did not offer to help me. So, I had to stay home and earn, you know, I would save money so I could move out. And I did move out with a friend from high school. And in fact, we moved to West 95th Street. We sublet an apartment from-from gals I met on a trip who wanted a two-bedroom apartment, and they moved to 108th and they we sublet their apartment on 95th Street. IG: 30:55 So, what was the Upper West Side back then? CR: 30:59 Oh, it what- in some ways, I am sorry it is not more like that now. Now it is, this is, this is too upscale for me. It was much more of a mix. Now, on the other hand, we lived through the-the (19)70s and (19)80s of New York City, which was not great, but in terms of neighborhood, they were supermarkets, there were movie theaters, there were shops, there were a mix, much more of a mix of folk. IG: 31:36 And by saying not, not so great. Well, there was a crime element. CR: 31:41 Well, absolutely I was, I was held up in the elevator- my- in that building, I can remember it now, my-my fear and my and they took my watch, which was a present, graduation present from my parents. And I remember, I did not want to tell them, and I know I still have it, though it is I remember buying my own watch that was as similar as I could to it so they would not know. But I- yes, I have had other incidents too, yes, and the subways were undependable. And, you know, on the other hand, it was more affordable. I mean, I started my career as a librarian, $7,000 a year. IG: 32:24 And where did you start? CR: 32:26 I- my- the New York Public Library. [crosstalk] They took me when I first started, still living at home, and that was in the Bronx. They sent me to a branch in the Bronx, and I will tell you, I had never been to that part of the Bronx in my life. IG: 32:44 What- describe it. CR: 32:45 This was, now, I grew up near Yankee Stadium, and there were part six, six story apartment buildings, one next to another. Some were walk up, some were elevated. There were, you know, sidewalk apartment house. All of a sudden, I was sent to this area, the Bronx. They are private homes. People had gardens with roses. It was much more open. I was like, "Oh, my God, this is a completely different section of the Bronx." It took me an hour to get there. By the time I moved out a year later, I had trained. I had gone to another branch, which was closer actually to my parents’ home, but it was an easier subway trip. That is why you asked me where I started. I remembered those trips, and when I worked in the library, I worked, I only worked for the New York Public Library, but there was opportunity when I started to advance and change so you so I ultimately left the Bronx and started working in Manhattan, and even then, I worked in branches. I worked in the office. I worked at big branches. I ultimately, I ended up back. I got married, I became pregnant, I had a baby, and I took some time off, then when it was time for me to go back, I only went back part time. And an opening came up in my neighborhood branch, and at first, I was leery about taking it because, you know, it was a chance to get away from the neighborhood. IG: 34:40 And what kind of position was that? CR: 34:42 That was as young adult librarian. CR: 34:44 And I ultimately took that position, and it was wonderful, because I could walk to work. I was in work at 10 minutes, if anything happened, I was home like my kids went to school. I could pick them up and take them to the doctor at my lunch hour, and I stayed at that branch for like 20 years. It became another library family, and then I ultimately left there and ended my career at another branch that opened up on near Columbia, also that I could work at. That was a less happy experience. And by the time I retired, I was very happy to go because the library had changed dramatically, and the things that were priorities when I started out were no longer priorities. IG: 34:44 I see. IG: 35:31 Such as. CR: 35:32 Well, it was the introduction of the computer and less that changed the kinds of people who came in, what they expected of you. By that time, I was no longer a young adult librarian, but once the computer came in, the kids used to come in and ask, assume that I would do their homework for them. You know, I am doing a "I am doing a paper on- could you please print out the-the and" I- it is almost as if they felt that you are going to press my-my button and out of my mouth is going to come your-your paper. And that really was, did not sit well by me, you know, let and the people who started coming in just wanted to use a computer for different things. One, I was not all that adept at it. And two, I liked the book person, so there was less of that. And the emphasis, there were budget crunches. I worked. I worked at a really good reading branch. They cut the book budget to nothing. I just, I- what kind of public service was that, you know, [crosstalk]And I did not make I did not like it. I did not like it. IG: 35:32 But you mentioned that you started out as a y [young adult] librarian, and you must have, you know, seen students through with their homework and their education. So, you had, you had a closer relationship with them. CR: 36:32 Absolutely. I mean, I and I also stayed at branches. There was a lot of turnover, but by the time I got to Bloomingdale, I had different kinds of experiences. I worked in the office of young adult services. I had been I took other administrative things. When I came back, I came back there as part time. So, is it back at the beginning as a young adult librarian, so developed my collection? I knew the kids. I knew the parents. I was I was like and I got a reputation because I lived in the neighborhood too, that if a kid was having trouble, talk to me, and I would tell I would calm them. I would tell them not to do the work. Do not do your children's homework if they are going to fall flat on their face. Let them fall in flat on their face in junior high school, let them learn you got. And then there were people who would thank me, and they were people who told me to mind my own business, you know, or I would tell the parent, they come in with their kids, and they could, parents would start talking to me, and I would say, "Would you mind? I think I would like to talk to your child, if you would just wait over here," you know, because, and I did, I did get satisfaction, and I get satisfaction, well, it is now mostly adults, but I have had even kids, you know, I live in the neighborhood. Years later “Did you work at the library?" IG: 36:48 Oh, that is nice. CR: 36:48 I mean, that is you helped me. You, you know- CR: 36:48 Right. What was the YA [young adult] age group that you serve from 13 to 17, or? IG: 38:44 Yes, it was junior high school, high school. IG: 38:49 I see. CR: 38:49 That-that is about 12, 13 [crosstalk] IG: 38:51 Right, reminds me. CR: 38:53 Right. IG: 38:53 I do briefly was a ya- CR: 38:55 Oh yeah. IG: 38:56 -branch for the Queen's public library. CR: 38:58 Well, it was the same. [crosstalk] were you there? IG: 39:03 In before returning to graduate school. I was, I mean, I had done my library degree, but I was there from, I think, 1984 to (19)86. CR: 39:17 Because I worked with Ellen Libretto. IG: 39:19 Oh, I remember her. CR: 39:20 You remember her? [crosstalk] Queens. IG: 39:22 Yes, I remember very well. CR: 39:25 Yeah. IG: 39:26 She was, you know, she was a dynamo. And- CR: 39:30 Yes, very. Yes, very outgoing [crosstalk] personality. IG: 39:34 I remember her. I remember right. So, you worked and you saw changing neighborhood. Did you still have a connection with you know your friends at Harpur, you mentioned- CR: 39:50 I had one. I have maintained my relationship with one person. IG: 39:58 Right. CR: 39:58 Which was my roommate. We roomed together for four years, and while we were completely different on the completely different, she came from a very small town in Pennsylvania, big city girl, right. IG: 40:09 Right. CR: 40:14 Her father died. She never knew him before she was born. She was a very religious Baptist. I am not a religious Jew. She physically, she was different. She was tall, I was little. Yet we hit it off, and we stayed in touch. And why, I do not see her that much now, because of various and sundry reasons, we, my whole family, used to spend at least a week every summer with them. IG: 40:51 How wonderful. CR: 40:52 And they think of her as Auntie Anne and Uncle Bob. And yes, it was, it was and even now, we were still very different. She is more conservative and much more conservative than I and yet, underlying principles and what we value, it taught me that you cannot really judge like that. You got to talk to people. IG: 41:20 And you can find connections even with people who are extremely who are very different. CR: 41:25 Apparently-apparently are very different. IG: 41:28 Yeah apparently. CR: 41:29 I am very neat. She is a mess. IG: 41:31 Yeah. CR: 41:31 I mean, you could not think of more stories that we could tell. We laughed, but we laughed, and I remember, I do not think she would be upset about I remember rearranging the room when she had to do her paper, because I am very disciplined, and I took my notes on my note cards. You know, I am the that part of the world she is writing her paper at the last minute. She has her 20 books that she is consulting with her markers in it, and we had to rearrange the room so she could the bed would be better access for her to-to do her paper. I remember that, instead of I just remember that, and I used to tell her, see, there is a division. There is an invisible line in the middle. Do not want any of your stuff on my side. My desk was pristine. She told me in the beginning that the first, first semester, she was afraid of me. CR: 42:34 Why=why? CR: 42:35 Because I was very clear. And I also said, "Do not talk to me in the morning." I am very grouchy in the morning. Do not, do not be happy. Do not sing. And I am, I am- IG: 42:48 Do not be happy. [laughs] CR: 42:50 I am very forth. I talk like this. I always have. IG: 42:53 Yeah. CR: 42:54 I do not think she would ever come across anybody like me, because I growl, you know, until I had breakfast and it was okay. IG: 43:04 Is that how other classmates would remember you? What would they say about idea? CR: 43:08 I have no idea. IG: 43:09 You have no idea, but it is, it is- it gives me a sense what my friend Ellen would say about me. CR: 43:15 I have no idea. I have no- I did not. I do not really feel that is one of the regrets, as I said, that I spend more time- IG: 43:26 With the others. CR: 43:27 With making friends. IG: 43:29 Yeah. CR: 43:30 [inaudible] And I think back and I forgive myself, because you can only do what you can do. IG: 43:35 Right. CR: 43:36 And I do not think I am naturally brilliant, but I am hard working. IG: 43:41 Right. CR: 43:42 And I that is what I had to do. I had to do my you know; it was a lot of reading. How to do my reading, and I took notes, and I-I took time. IG: 43:52 Is that advice that you would give to a college student now going to Binghamton to take more time to make friends? CR: 44:00 I would add I would if they could manage it- IG: 44:03 Right. CR: 44:04 -to find more of a balance. I am not sorry. I mean, there you there are a lot of people who say we should not go back to college because I would have worked harder. And I do not say that. I feel that I did that and I enjoyed it, most of it, and I could not, I could not have done it any other way. I mean it. I could not have done it any other way. IG: 44:26 Right. CR: 44:26 So, but yes, and I also would say I did take a lot of music classes. I love that. Dr. Friedheim [Philip Friedheim], that yes, was a wonderful music teacher. Oh, my God, I took anything he taught, even though 20th century music, I took because he taught it. I took an opera class. I do not really like 20th century music or but he was one of the phenomenal teachers. I would say, take those classes, take art, take music, take things. That would, do not shy from them, because those kinds of things are with you for the rest of your life. IG: 45:07 Right. CR: 45:08 You know- IG: 45:10 So go outside of your comfort zone, or it would be explorative. CR: 45:13 That is that is personality. That is your personality. You cannot you have to be true to who you are at the time, be more involved. I am still not a big joiner. IG: 45:24 Right-right. CR: 45:26 I am not that that is- IG: 45:29 So is this, is this, is this the message that you would like to impart to, um- CR: 45:35 I would tell people that I do not know if they I think they have pass, fail now, they think they instituted pass, fail I am not sure. IG: 45:41 Yes, they have. Yes. CR: 45:43 And I would say, use it. IG: 45:45 Right. CR: 45:46 Take a chance. Take a chance on something that you think you would like. That I would do. I would say, yes, friends are important. See what you could see if you can expand that way, because that is now it is a university. Now it is very different. You went Harpur, there were three groups at Harvard. There was the Upstate group, there was Long Island. And there was the city, yeah, and that is the bulk of the- there was the graduate school is just coming in to its own, you know, beginning, but that so those were the three different groups of people that were there. And while I was certainly not a slick city, you know, I was not, in fact, somebody once said to me, "Oh, you are more like the Upstate people," which I did not take as a compliment. My roommate was from Pennsylvania. She was one of the very few outside state people. I had my own stereotypes of these different groups and where I would fit, and I was not an upstate kid, and I was not a Long Island kid, and I did not fit in with the slicker city kids, so I did what I could do. Now, it is a different world there. It is much broader. There are more, I think there are people from- CR: 47:19 International-international students. CR: 47:20 International students. There were very few international students. So, it is a broader world to pick from. You can eat more easily, I think IG: 47:31 So, you feel that you cannot really give advice to the current student population because they are so different. They are- CR: 47:38 Yeah, I do not think they need my advice. IG: 47:39 You do not. They do not. CR: 47:40 I do not think they need my advice, to be quite honest. And secondly, what I see from my own children was they are more absent again, take advice from their peers than they are from [crosstalk] So find out. You know this advice you are not going to listen. Maybe the pass, fail thing, because that is academic, and maybe it is just fine after yourself. I have learned about that. IG: 48:11 What are, what are some of the most important life lessons that you have learned, do you think that could be benefit, beneficial to somebody listening to this interview? CR: 48:22 In life, not necessarily at school? IG: 48:25 Not necessarily at school. CR: 48:27 You change. IG: 48:28 Right. CR: 48:28 You are not who you are when you are 20. You do grow. You do gain wisdom. So, you learn, therefore not to be judged. So judgmental. IG: 48:41 Right. CR: 48:43 I am, you-you through, sometimes, through adversity, you realize what is really important, and maybe not the small stuff. IG: 48:57 Right. CR: 48:57 But that also you cannot people you cannot you have to experience it yourself. The only thing that is taken me a long time to learn, but I am much better, is that you cannot really give advice unless somebody truly wants it. And I know that from with my own children, because I certainly was advice giver until I realized that, you know, I am here for you- IG: 49:36 Right. CR: 49:36 -but I have great faith in you. What do I tell people? My two mantras, at least in terms of their children, I said, you have to live long enough, and you have to have faith, and that is for children. For friends, you cannot fix them. You can, you can listen. IG: 49:54 Right. CR: 49:54 So, listen, wait, if they ask you, because I am actually somebody, when I am telling somebody a problem, I want their advice. IG: 50:06 Right. CR: 50:07 What I am asking for is a different way of looking at something that I that maybe I had not thought of, but I must [crosstalk]but I must be unusual, because most people do not want that. They want to vent. And that is, that is a role too. I think that is really- IG: 50:27 A role of a very good friend or a therapist. CR: 50:31 Well, that right, somebody said to me, make a good therapist, and that might be maybe, except I do not hear everybody's problems, right, I mean, I have other I have certainly have things for myself that it could work on, but that is what I would tell people do not be I am not a risk taker. I-I admire people who do take more risks. I um, when my son came to me and asked me, he wanted to go to study abroad, and asked me what my opinion and I quite honestly said to him, I said, I am not the right person to ask. I am not a risk taker. I took four risks in my life. I got married, I had two children, and we bought this apartment when we did not see it, they all turned out well, not always right away, but they all turned out well. So, I said, "That is what I said. I am not we are not risk takers here, but if you are going to do it, this is a good time to do it." You have no responsibilities. And why not, and why not, IG: 51:42 And why not. That is, that is- CR: 51:44 He did. IG: 51:45 Opening the door for him. CR: 51:46 Absolutely, I did not say no, and we, and obviously we would support him and help him if we could, but, but that is what I would tell people. IG: 51:55 Right. CR: 51:57 If they could hear it, that you have your certain personality you cannot, uh- IG: 52:02 I understand. Do you have any concluding remarks? CR: 52:09 I thought that it was wonderful for me to have had the opportunity to go to Harpur. IG: 52:16 Why CR: 52:17 I thought I got a great education. I just did, even though, by the end, I thought it was too small for me. You know, it is one thing to go to a small to 2000 people, you know, different classes, because, and I advise my children, in fact, to go to schools are a little bigger, not big, but bigger. But I just thought for this little girl from the Bronx who made her way to Harpur had these wonderful teachers. Loved most of her classes, I just have a very warm feeling- IG: 53:01 I understand. CR: 53:01 -towards it and grateful that I could go. IG: 53:05 Well, thank you very much. CR: 53:09 This was fun. IG: 53:09 This was a wonderful, wonderful conclusion. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Carol Reisner Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the library profession; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Reisner, Carol ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Carol worked as a branch librarian with the NYPL for 34 years. She grew up in the Bronx. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Carol Reisner.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-19 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 53:14 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5634ec59b1b14f9281820f622859e952.jpg 5cec64179a174808acb010f89bf3e972 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2b498f5c680ccbfaa0f6eaa80dc44de2.mp3 1752dd40c7aa5de5decc6a8a10a3a0c3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11-01 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Carolyn Garcia, 1946- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Carolyn Garcia, a native of Poughkeepsie, NY, is known as \&quot;Mountain Girl\&quot;, and is a former Merry Prankster. She is the former wife of Jerry Garcia. She wrote a book on marijuana cultivation, called Primo Plant: Growing Sinsemilla Marijuana, first published in 1976. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13117,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Carolyn Garcia, a native of Poughkeepsie, NY, is known as "Mountain Girl" and is a former Merry Prankster. She is the former wife of Jerry Garcia. She wrote a book on marijuana cultivation, called <em>Primo Plant: Growing Sinsemilla Marijuana</em>, first published in 1976. </span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Polio epidemic; Nuclear pollution; Psychedelics; Communal living; Acid tests; Counterculture; Vietnam War; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Summer of Love; Vietnam Veterans; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Marijuana; Golden Gate Park; The Grateful Dead at Harpur College; Sexism; The Beatles; Woodstock; Academia; Psychotherapy.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13228792}}">Baby boom generation; Polio epidemic; Nuclear pollution; Psychedelics; Communal living; Acid tests; Counterculture; Vietnam War; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Summer of Love; Vietnam Veterans; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Marijuana; Golden Gate Park; The Grateful Dead at Harpur College; Sexism; The Beatles; Woodstock; Academia; Psychotherapy.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 98:21 Subject LCSH Merry Band of Pranksters; Marijuana; Mountain Girl, 1946--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Carolyn Garcia Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Description An account of the resource Carolyn Garcia, a native of Poughkeepsie, NY, is known as "Mountain Girl" and is a former Merry Prankster. She is the former wife of Jerry Garcia. She wrote a book on marijuana cultivation, called <em>Primo Plant: Growing Sinsemilla Marijuana</em>, first published in 1976. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.55 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 98:21 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Garcia, Carolyn, 1946- ; McKiernan, Stephen