57 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/af7f688973c94539397ed7b7dfb3e6cf.jpeg b9f5a8e19784c01a85bbdbf9cadd9a7e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/47ebdd2b71693eaeaab73343a1ef75ec.mp3 fdea3c256785cc54a014680477ac0d74 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1/25/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Catherine Abashian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:14:04 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Cathy was born in Binghamton to Turkish and Irish-English-German parents. She attended Hartwick College and later graduated from Binghamton University. After graduating, she worked for her father at his company. Cathy has one son, Nathan."}">Cathy was born in Binghamton to Armenian and Irish-English-German parents. She attended Hartwick College and later graduated from Binghamton University. After graduating, she worked for her father at his company. Cathy has one son, Nathan. Keywords Armenians; Community; Family; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Massacre; Church; Food; Culture; Dance; Discrimination; AGBU; Turkey; Ottoman Empire; Binghamton. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Cathrine Abashian Williams Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 25 January 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 AD: So, today is January 25, 2017 and I am interviewing with Cathy Abashian Williams. Okay, so but go ̶ ahead Cathy and tell me your full name for the record. 0:20 CA: Sure. My name is Catherine. My middle name is Rose named after my Armenian grandmother translated her name as Esgouhi, so Rose. Abashian is my maiden name and Williams is my previous married name and professional name and the name of my son. 0:44 AD: So, where were you born Cathy? 0:47 CA: I was born in Binghamton, at Binghamton General Hospital, which is over on the Southside in 1961, August 6th. 0:59 AD: So, which generation you belong to? So, who was born here before you? 1:06 CA: My father was born here on June 27, 1927 in an apartment in Binghamton on Clinton Street and he was the first generation and I am the second. 1:24 AD: I see. So, how about your mother? 1:28 CA: So, my mother was the second oldest of ten children of Irish-English-German Catholic parents. So, she was born in the United States. Her parents were born in the United States too. 1:40 AD: But she was not an Armenian? 1:41 CA: No, she was not. 1:42 AD: Okay, so your paternal grandfather was born ̶ overseas? 1:54 CA: Yes, he was born– so my paternal grandfather and grandmother– now my grandmother was born in Kassab, Syria and my grandfather may have been born in Turkey I believe. 2:08 AD: Okay, but that was old Ottoman Empire back, then right? 2:12 CA: Yes. 2:13 AD: So, what was your father doing, like he was born here and what kind of education or occupation he had? 2:26 CA: So, he was born he went to Public School here in Binghamton. When he was seventeen, he enrolled in the New York State March at Marine Academy, which is now SUNY (State University of New York) Maritime in the Bronx and went there and studied and then ultimately graduated from there and joined the US Navy. He was a Ship Engineer. And he worked in the engine room of the ships and he had a career in the navy and ultimately, he came back to Binghamton and he met his first wife who was Russian. Her family were first generation. She was first generation Carpathian, Russians who came to this country from–to work in the coal mines in Scranton. And they were from a large family in Binghamton. So, he married her and she was sick. She had Asthma. 3:46 AD: I see. 3:46 CA: And so, they had my oldest sister Roxanne, and then they moved to Arizona because of the climate, because she could not breathe very well and had my second oldest sister and then she contracted pneumonia and she died when my sisters were six months old and a year and a half old. So, my father’s sisters went to Arizona came and brought him and the girls back to Binghamton and they lived with his family, his parents and then he met my mother who was number two of ten children from the Irish end. So, then they got married and then they have four more children. I have two older brothers, me and then Dan my younger brother. And so, there was six total children of my father and four of them were from my mother and two from my oldest sister’s mother. 4:58 AD: Are they all living in the area? CA: No, Dan– Daniel and I are the only ones here and I– my next oldest brother lives in Huntsville, Alabama, and my next oldest brother lives in Santa Cruise, California. And then my two oldest sisters, they are my half-sisters but you know mother raised them from the time when they were babies. They live in Long Island and New Jersey. 5:29 AD: So, your father basically grew up in an Armenian household, is that correct? 5:36 CA: Yes. It is. 5:37 AD: So, was he fluent in Armenian? Was he speaking Armenian? Do you remember? 5:43 CA: Yes, he grew up, he and his siblings were bilingual because they learned English in school and so they– English– they spoke Armenian at home and English in the school and they had friends as they were growing up. So– 6:06 AD: How many siblings did your father have? 6:10 CA: There were seven children, so he was one of the seven. 6:12 AD: A big family! 6:13 CA: Uh-huh. 6:14 AD: And where are those people? Are they still in the area? 6:21 CA: Right, so my– five of the siblings have passed away including my father. And the two remaining siblings are his two younger sisters Rose she lives in Doylestown in Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia and Violet is in San Diego, California. 6:40 AD: Okay, and so are they– they were obviously married right? 6:49 CA: Right, so, um Rose married a doctor in the navy who–you know, his parents were born here. He was–I do not know what their ethnicity was, Blackburn is the name and Violet also married an American, Reckonridge is his name. And Violet and Wilber had four children, four girls and my uncle and aunt adopted two children, a boy and a girl. 7:26 AD: So, what did your grandfather do when he came here? How old was he do you know that? 7:33 CA: So, my grandmother– 7:36 AD: Your grandmother and grandfather both of them– 7:37 CA: So, he had actually come here as a teenager. He stowed away on a ship and he came here and got an opportunity to work in Dunn McCarthy Shoe Factory. A lot of the immigrants to this area worked for Endicott Johnson or Dunn McCarthy Shoe Factory. So, he went back to, at that point my grandmother and her remaining family were in a refugee camp at Port Saeed in Alexandria, Egypt. So, he went back there because he had met her brother who arranged the marriage for my grandmother to marry but he came here and he secured work and then they, um, actually were in Paris for three months before they came here and they emigrated from Paris through Ellis Island together but they came to Binghamton because the jobs were at the shoe factory. 8:49 AD: So, your grandfather came here before or after the massacre– like which year was that? 9:00 CA: It was– I have to confirm the dates but when he first came here; he was undocumented and he was not authorized. So, he was, you know, as you said they communicate and I do not know how his connection was but, so he must have– 9:19 AD: Yeah, they have network and then they follow that– 9:21 CA: So, I am thinking that– so the massacre began (19)15, (19)16. So, it was probably 1918 and he was three or four years older than my grandmother. So, she was born in nineteen hundred which meant that he was born– so he probably was twenty when he came here maybe, late teens or early twenties and then– 9:53 AD: So, he escaped the massacre basically? 9:56 CA: Yeah, I am not as familiar– um we had recordings of my uncle giving us presentation in oral history we could share with you. 10:04 AD: Oh, yeah. 10:04 CA: It is a video actually. 10:06 AD: That would be fantastic. 10:06 CA: When they were together as a family a few years ago, that was done and he talks about where– he shows the map where both of his parents were from and so I am not sure, I cannot remember– 10:21 AD: No, that is fine, that is fine. 10:23 CA: So, but he actually fled the situation when his father remarried. I do not know–his mother died I think and his father remarried and the woman burned his little brother. She burned him with, I do not know if it was iron or bath and he died and so my grandfather, you know it was a bad situation and ultimately, he fled and he was living on his own from a young age. 10:58 AD: I see. 11:01 CA: So, and yeah so, my guess is that my grandmother was probably eighteen or nineteen when she came here. She did not really know her birth date. She did not know when it was. So, they estimated it. 11:14 AD: So, it was kind of like an arranged marriage? 11:17 CA: Yes, absolutely. She did not know him until the day of her marriage and then they went from Alexandria to Paris and then they came to the US. 11:29 AD: Okay, and with seven kids I assume she was a homemaker. 11:35 CA: Yes, yes. 11:36 AD: And he worked at that shoe factory? 11:38 CA: Right. 11:39 AD: Okay, so was there Armenian community at that time in Binghamton? 11:46 CA: Well it is interesting because you know there is an Armenian Church here that you are aware of on Corbett Avenue and but my grandparents were, not adopted, but the protestant church, the United Church of Christ, First Congregational Church sponsored a number of Armenians. So, those that were not aligned with the Armenian Catholic, they were protestant, came to this church and so the family, really the church was the supporting kind of entity, you know culturally and socially and so they were lifelong members of the First Congregational Church in Binghamton. 12:42 AD: I see. So, your father basically grew up in Armenian tradition? 12:53 CA: Armenian tradition in America in a very poor section of Binghamton called the first ward where all of the immigrants lived. So, he– it was not just Armenians and it is interesting I saw the list of the people you interviewed I hope that was okay– 13:18 AD: Oh, yeah, I share it– Of course, it is okay. 13:21 CA: So, it is some of the families on that list had a very different experience here than my father’s family. 13:27 AD: But that is good, that makes this collection even stronger, yeah. 13:33 CA: Right. So, his family was the poorest of the Armenians. Pretty much they were at the bottom of the Armenian food chain in our community. 13:44 AD: Really? 13:44 CA: Yeah, they were, very. 13:46 AD: Why? Do you know why? 13:48 CA: Well, you know, the Kachadourians are a family who were poor but they began buying a lot of property and they lived, it was interesting because, and if I can be completely frank there was like the– 14:11 AD: Please! 14:13 CA: So, there was the poorest, then there were those that the marginally, you know, were connected and had some resources. And then there were the more affluent. And the Kradjian family was the senior affluent Armenian family in this community. The father, Kenneth, and the dry cleaners and now they have incredible wealth. It was interesting– 14:43 AD: Troy and Bates? 14:44 CA: Bates & Troy and Ara Kradjian and Harry and Brann and their father was Kenneth–– 14:49 AD: But we did not interview with them, did we? 14:52 CA: Yeah, all of those you have on the list, I do not know. 14:54 AD: Okay, alright, so Gregory probably did it. 14:57 CA: I think there is some interview there–So, there was a hierarchy here locally amongst the Armenian socio-economic, I think, level. 15:10 AD: Yea, class differences. 15:14 CA: And I remember hearing that, because we knew, we would– so, we were based in the same First Congregational Church, my family was, but we would go to the Armenian Church Friday night, dance group. We would do Armenian dancing. We would take Armenian class and we would do like the activities associated with the Civic Association, you know, it was connecting with our heritage even at a young age, so that was how I got to meet a lot of the Armenians that went to Saint Gregory’s on Corbett Ave. So, but there was this hierarchy of the families. So, the Armenian community was tight, you know, and some of those first generations became physicians, and you know have more affluence and ultimately my father went into–he started his own vending food, vending machines where he bought a cigarette machine and a coffee machine and he put it in public places and then he grew to have a successful business of manufacturing cafeterias and then manu– and he grow and so he built his own wealth, I guess, in that regard and the–but the interesting thing is regardless of how much wealth everybody who was here either survived the genocide or their parents did. And so, they always had that. It was always that very humble, very complicated life, you know before they came to America. So, from my grandparents and their children, my father– it was a new opportunity but they struggled, they were very poor, and they were not of the upper echelon of society they were– 17:29 AD: So, did you– obviously they should tell you if they felt that way– so some of them were richer than the others. So, how were they treating each other, you know, it was a close community, you know small group, ethnic group, so were the rich Armenians kind of taking care of the poor ones like providing job for them or something like that, I mean– 18:00 CA: You know, probably I do not really know but probably. But I do remember a story that was– so Ara Kradjian– and this may have been translated to something totally different than what the reality was but he, you know his family had a level of stature here as he started to grow, and they had got considerable wealth and my father’s younger sister Violet was very beautiful and she was Armenian, and apparently he, I do not know if he had loved her but he had interest in her, and my aunt told me that they were, he was discouraged by his family because they were the poor. And I always felt sad about that. I remember hearing that and thinking my God you people came from the same horrible circumstance and one path let you have wealth and so he– so they never were together and it is kind of tragic story in a way that can be interesting and my aunt she has Alzheimer’s now. So, my fear is that those stories are lost because she does not really have the recollection or it is a different recollection or something now but that was something that made me feel very sad. 19:48 AD: It is very sad, you know, you would not think that what happen, interesting. So, and your father went married a non-Armenian person. 20:01 CA: Correct, correct. Only one of the children married an Armenian. 20:06 AD: Actually, two non-Armenian women, your father married too, right? 20:12 CA: Yes, married a Russian, a first generation Russian, Carpathian Russian and the second was my mother. So, yes, they– he married two in fact, so we call it odar it is outsider. So, the only one of my father’s siblings who married an Armenian was his older sister Lora and she married an Armenian ̶ gorian. And he was in the marines and so she had a little bit of different experience but nobody stayed in Binghamton except for my father they left and went all over the country. 21:04 AD: So, but you were told that you were Armenian when you were growing ̶ I mean when did you realize what is Armenian as a child? 21:18 CA: Well, some of it was not very good. I mean I guess I knew because we would go to my grandmother’s every Sunday and we would have sarma, which is stuffed grape leaves and pilav and the Armenian– 21:31 AD: Köfte– 21:32 CA: Yes, all of it, yes, I would love to have them–yes excellent food. So, we knew, and it was interesting because my mother was even though she was very white Anglo-WASP would encourage that and she got very involved in the Armenian AGBU, Armenian General Benevolent Union I think it is called, they are the Armenian group. They are not very active here anymore but they are quite active in the nation and so we would go to the Armenian dance and Armenian school on Friday nights. So that was our exposure and then I was probably–one of my earliest recollections was in our neighborhood the families were all very white Anglo-Saxton, Protestant or Catholic and a new family moved in and I went because they had a little boy and our yards were connected and I went down to see him and his family was Italian. And he said, I was very dark-skinned, very– I looked very Armenian, my brothers have a little lighter skin but I looked very Armenian, and he said get out of my yard, you Negro. Like trying to call me a Negro or, you know, Nigger but he said get out of my yard and then his father and mother were very Italian and very discriminating against the Armenians and as I got older we had a lake home in out in Pennsylvania and there were a number of Italians who had lake homes out on this lake and so all the kids would play together but all of the Italian kids would call us Camel Jockey and Sand Nigger ̶ 24:04 AD: Oh My God, Italians! 24:06 CA: Yes, the Italians were horrible to us and I remember going back and saying to my father what is a sand nigger, and he was like– 24:19 AD: Sorry, it is just horrible. 24:21 CA: Yeah, it is, I mean what I told Alexi, he was like you know ̶ because I said do I tell in the interview, he said absolutely. So, when I was a pre-teen in school kids would say oh are you Italian because if they look and I say yeah and I would lie and I would say that I was Italian because every experience that we were having and, you know they would be very derogatory towards my father and they were all Italian immigrants themselves and it was very interesting to say– 25:02 AD: It is interesting because Italians mostly are our complexion and whenever I travel people think I am Italian– 25:12 CA: Right that is what–growing up, that is what everybody thought. You’ve a dark hair you are Italian. It was not very diverse– 25:20 AD: Because you know not everybody knows who Armenian is. Now there are more people but still, you know, Italians are known with the olive complexion, dark hair– 25:30 CA: So, people would say oh you must be Italian–And I would say yes because it just it hurt– it hurt me terribly. 25:37 AD: Obviously! 25:39 CA: A Camel Jockey, like go get your camel– 25:42 AD: I never heard that term before, I know right now, in this century I think Sand Nigger is referred to Middle Easterner by period. 25:54 CA: but that is what they– so that is what they called–and but camel jockey was the other one like they would say, and the parents would say it. 26:00 AD: Parents! Obviously, they learned from their parents. 26:07 CA: Yes. 26:08 AD: But openly they say it? 26:08 CA: Uh-huh. 26:08 AD: That is horrible! 26:13 CA: So, I think that is the closest probably we came to being discriminated against really, but it was– it was in my formative years and I found that I would tend to hide my ethnicity then because I was shocked with the reaction. So, but I did not always do that. As I got older I was, you know, I became more committed to be– I identify as Armenian. 26:47 AD: But when you were younger– 26:53 CA: Yes. Well those experiences happened, and so the next door neighbors were different families and they were very WASPY white and so we had one day in the summer all the kids would come and we had a picnic table and my mom brought outside some food and I had a sarma and the kid said you are eating dog poop, dog doo, it looks like dogs poop, and so they were making fun of us. And we were like it is not dog’s poop, you know and they were having hot dogs my mother brought out the sarma, in the grape leaf and they were like “aaaaah”–that was another thing. It was a little bit unusual I guess– 27:42 AD: That is why, you did not want to eat any kind of food– 27:45 CA: Not in front of them. 27:46 AD: That is right. You would not take it to school for example. 27:50 CA: No, no. Not really. 27:53 AD: Because I think similar kind of things are still going on like there is still like condescending attitudes toward refugee immigrants– like what they eat or it does not smell good and stuff like that– 28:15 CA: But those were the negative impressions I got as a child but– and for a short period of time I was dishonest about my ethnicity in elementary school or, you know, I would say no I am Italian– they say “Are you Italian?” I would say “Yes.” You know, but my last name clearly did not indicate that I was Italian if they knew anything about Armenia they would know I was Armenian based on my last name. 28:41 AD: That is right. So, when you were growing up did you have Armenian friends that you played with, spent time with– 28:52 CA: So, the only connection that I had with the Armenian kids was when we would go to the Corbett Avenue Church on Friday nights and then I was part of the dance group. We did the Armenian dances and go the Civic Association and so I would say they were friends but we would see them once or twice a month; then the Kradjians were having very big picnic in the summer. They lived over behind the University and they had– they owned the land that the University is on now. 29:27 AD: Oh, really? 29:28 CA: Oh, yeah, their family home is on the university property. 29:33 AD: Oh, there is one home is that their home? 29:36 CA: It is theirs. When you coming by Denny’s. 29:39 AD: Yeah, I know that house. 29:41 CA: So that is where Kenneth and his wife lived until they died in Kenneth had remarried and his wife lived there. But the family still owns that home. AD: Who lives there right now? I do not know who is there. But I think there was some problem with the new wife and so took them a while but she moved but so they would have a big picnic and all the Armenians would come and they had a pond an area up behind the university and I would remember those days going to that. And then there was an Armenian dance every year that was put on by the AGBU. My mother was very active in organizing that. She was like the one non-Armenian. You know she was odar wife but she was very into that and so I would see them there. But I did not have an extremely strong connection with other Armenian kids because they were not in my neighborhood and they did not go to my school, and so the only way I did was by, you know, my mother taking us to Armenian dance on Friday nights and– 30:46 AD: Visiting your grandparents. 30:49 CA: Right, right. And my cousins when we would get together, so– 31:00 AD: So, you did not learn Armenian growing up? 31:05 CA: No, and I cannot speak much of it at all. I got to a point where I could understand some and my grandmother was– used hybrid of Armenian and English. She never was fully one hundred percent fluent English. She would–so but my grandfather spoke seven–spoke and read seven languages. And so, I did not really ever– 31:33 AD: I am sure he knew Turkish, your grandfather. 31:36 CA: Yes, my grandfather was very fluent in Turkish and, gosh, I am not sure the other languages French, you know– 31:47 AD: Probably French because at that time French was a second language in Ottoman Empire and that is the time period that they were sending delegates to Europe and if, you know, look at the Ottoman history those delegates were all Armenian and so because– and even like today what is– what, what is left in Istanbul, the Armenians, although we have more Armenians– Greeks are completely gone, I mean that was like big blow because of the, you know, the war and of the after the WWI when the freedom war and at that time Greece wanted piece of Turkey so that is why like there was this unbelievable hatred towards Greeks, not towards Armenians or Jews. So, that is why they were targeted the most. So, I mean, I think there are only two thousand Greeks in Istanbul anything like thousands of them. So, there is a region in Istanbul still like heavily populated. It is traditional that is their home and they still live in that region, a lot of Armenians, middle class Armenians of course like really rich ones live in other, like, more wealthy areas– 33:33 CA: Yeah, we have family that actually landed in Beirut and there is a lot of– in Beirut still to this day. 33:44 AD: That like was typical leaving. They all went to Lebanon from Lebanon to France, France to the United States and some stayed in France, they did not leave. So, they did what they got to do, you know, wherever they could get asylum they stayed in that country. So, how about your other siblings, your two older half-sisters and your, you know, blood sisters, how about your siblings, how did they feel about being Armenian? 34:29 CA: Um, you know, my oldest sister married an Armenian. She got divorced but she married an Armenian that she met–she was a camp counselor at camp Nubar which was an Armenian camp. And so, she ̶ 34:44 AD: Where was that camp? Is it still going on? 34:46 CA: You know, it may be, I have to ask her I will find out but she went there as a camper, as a younger person and then she became a counselor and her–one of her camp, like campers she supervised, she married his brother. And they were from Long Island. That is how she met him. So, they had two children together. So, my sister is half Armenian because her mother was Russian and her husband was one hundred percent Armenian and Assyrian is their name. And incidentally her father in-law is ninety-nine and lives in Florida and is driving a car and plays softball. He is an athlete. He is an anomaly. He is an amazing person. There is something great. I mean yeah, like I am wow! So, he lives he is still alive. So, they–my sister had two children. My second oldest is a lesbian. She never– she has a life partner of twenty-five years who is from Jamaica actually. So, but she has not been involved with the Armenian community but had a very, had the closest bond with my grandmother of any of us. She was at that age. We were younger, you know, so she had a very close bond with my father. She looked, she looked like me with a dark hair, dark skin and so that is her situation and then my brother Paul has never married but he has been with a woman for twenty-five years who is– I do not– she may be Jewish¬–Koenig. K-O-E-N-I-G is her name. I do not know much about her. He is not really– he does not communicate with the family since my father died. 36:57 AD: I see. 36:58 CA: So, we do not hear a lot from him. And then my brother Peter who was closest in age to me who lives in Alabama is divorced and he has a fourteen-year-old daughter. And he married a Southern– 37:20 AD: Belle. 37:21 CA: Yeah, Southern belle Baptist like, yeah, yeah that was an interesting coupling. I am not sure how that happened but it did not last. So, and then me, and then my brother Dan, so, but, you know, that is kind of how we grew up we– Dan did not really have the exposure to the Armenian community because by the time he was growing up, my parents were divorcing and you know the community here has gotten very diluted. People my age many have moved away, you know many of the–there is still some here, and someone you should talk to is Talene Kachadourian. I have some other people that I think might be interested so– 38:19 AD: Kachadourian is Jackie–my student is Kachadourian. Her uncle is the surgeon. So, and then her father is the lawyer. 38:35 CA: Okay, that is her cousin is Talene. And Talene is younger than me a little bit. But she is very– she identify as almost only Armenian. 38:51 AD: So how do you– Talene– 38:53 CA: T-A-L-E-N-E. So, you could tell Jackie that her cousin Talene, her father is the surgeon. 38:56 AD: Talene’s father is the surgeon. 39:01 CA: Talene is the president of the Greater New York Armenian Professional Group. 39:10 AD: Oh, really! 39:11 CA: It has thousands of people involved. And she is– I do not know how the family gets along–How the cousins get along– 39:19 AD: I will check with Jackie. Jackie is– I wish her schedule fit it–I would have brought here extremely sweet girl. I love her to pieces. I mean she is such a nice girl! 39:33 CA: Is she related, is Corinne? So how old is Jackie? 39:40 AD: Jackie is sophomore right now, nineteen, maximum twenty. 39:46 CA: Okay, so she is. So, Jackie is her– 39:55 AD: She has an older sister I do not know her name. 40:00 CA: Right, but her parent– 40:01 AD: Her father is the lawyer. 40:02 CA: Right, and her grandfather is a lawyer. 40:05 AD: I think so yes. 40:07 CA: So, her father– Jackie’s father did Armenian dance and Jackie’s aunt Corinne did Armenian dance with me. So, her parents are my generation. 40:20 AD: She is very– I mean, when you see Jackie talk to her and you would never think she has an extremely strong sense of Armenian in her but I interviewed with her and so she really wants to marry an Armenian like extremely pro-Armenian. There is nothing wrong with that. But what I am saying is like after so many generations it is still very strong, so that is like amazing to me. 40:52 CA: You know who else did that was Brian Kradjian. So, Brian is our son and Brian is my Brother Dan’s age. 41:01 AD: Oh really? 41:02 CA: And he dated my niece who was Armenian and it is interesting because he only wanted an Armenian girl. He was with some people that were not but ultimately, he married a Los Angeles Armenian who was from I believe Lebanon. I am not sure where she is from but Alexi met her and totally speaks Russian because she was part of the Soviet– But Brian is another interesting person no I am just going to have you to turn it off for one second if possible– 41:48 AD: Okay, so we are back now. So, your first husband was not an Armenian– 41:57 CA: No, he was a WASP, very WASP. Shetler was the name. I was young and I was married for a short time. But he–yeah very, very WASPY background. 42:14 AD: Okay, and you have how many children? 42:17 CA: I have one. So, I was married at twenty-three. I got divorced. I met my second husband, the son of–who was the father of my son. He– Williams, that is my name from, you, know, the time– 42:33 AD: That is not Armenian either. 42:35 CA: No, no, no. He was Polish. His father was one hundred Polish and his father English. So– 42:42 AD: What is your son’s name? 42:45 CA: Nathan. 42:43 AD: Not Armenian. 42:45 CA: No, Nathan David Williams. 42:49 AD: Okay, very American, western. So, you did not want to give any Armenian name, not even like middle name? 42:57 CA: Yeah, no I did not, I did not– his middle name is his father’s name David. So, no, I did not. I was going to name him after my father, Peter, but my brother Dan, well Peter is younger than my son but it was almost like I was giving my brothers the opportunity to name a boy, Peter Abashian after our father. 43:32 AD: I see. So, how about your son? Was he involved in anything Armenian related? 43:40 CA: No, not really, he did the only thing is that Corrine, Phil’s daughters he went to school with them; Catholic school and he went to Catholic school. I was a Catholic. But so, he had some exposure in that regard and attended the Armenian dances. That is about it. He has not really had, he did– he is exposed to the food through my father and my family get togethers. 43:32 AD: I see. 44:12 CA: But he did not– I did not raise him– I mean he did some papers in school about his grandmother and the Armenian Genocide and such but he never really had much connection. 44:31 AD: So, but he knows he has an Armenian ancestry? 44:36 CA: Oh, absolutely. 44:38 AD: So, does he acknowledge that he is partially Armenian like if I meet him and if ask him what is your background is, would he– 44:48 CA: Absolutely, he would say my father is Polish and my mother– 44:50 AD: is Armenian– 44:52 CA: Uh-huh. 44:52 AD: So, okay, all right. So, let us see. So other than your grandparents, you did not have like full Armenian–I mean, other than your father obviously but you had like uncles, your great uncles, great aunts, those people were around you too right, Your grandfather’s siblings? 45:31 CA: No, no. 45:32 AD: I mean no, no. your father’s siblings. 45:33 CA: My father’s siblings, yes. So, they were my uncles and aunts yes. 45:37 AD: Yeah, yeah. They were around. So, okay, let me see I was thinking something. So, who was talking about what happened to your grandparents? Was it your grandfather– how do you know what their story is– I mean obviously some– 46:03 CA: My grandmother shared with her children and her children shared the story and I remember– do you know the card game ishli. I do not know what it is. So, my grandmother used to always want to teach me this ishli. I never knew how to play it. I do not know, but it was something she said she played her whole life as a child with some cards like playing cards. She called it ishli. 46:32 AD: I think it is– it must be because that is like really common card game over there. Maybe they were using another name so it is like four people play. 46:44 CA: Yeah, I really do not understand how it is played. I used to just pretend because I did not know and I did not– You know, she sometimes struggled with her language so it was difficult and I did not understand Armenian– so, oh, I am sorry I told you only one of my father’s sisters married Armenian. The second one did– married an Armenian doctor. So, she also was very– She was the one who– I am going to give you– I can send this to you via email but she penned this poem that talks about her grandmother’s death and how her– she sacrificed her sons on Musa Dagh (Turkish: Musa Dağı) and you know the story is that the survivors were rescued by a French ̶ They held sheets over the edge of the cliff that said SOS and they were– and it is a very interesting story but I just wanted to show you just something I took the picture of this morning two other things I took pictures of just to show you. So here is the family. This is my father ̶ 47:57 AD: Oh, that is wonderful. 48:00 CA: This is a picture we have in our home but, so he was white, very white, pale. My grandmother I look similar to her. And so, this is them and this is their family. So here is Sarah, she married an Armenian doctor from Pennsylvania. This is Steve, he married a Southern belle. This is my father Peter. So, this is my lineage right here. This is my grandmother and to think that she really was not thirty years old here she looks so old to me, you know, they are just amazing and this is– so Sarah, this is Lora, this Is Alec, and this is Rose and Violet was not even born when this picture was taken. So, here they are with six of their seven children. But this was– this is a classic photo. 49:04 AD: Yeah, probably all those birds and the lifestyle that is why she aged, you know what I mean? 49:09 CA: Yeah, she was an old soul when she came here. You know, what she survived. 49:16 AD: Giving birth to six children and you did not even know if she lost any in between. 49:20 CA: Right, right we do not know that. But this is the memorial to my grandmother I will send this to you and then I will make the copy of it but it is the poem of my aunt Sarah the oldest girl. She was the one who most connected with our Armenian heritage and our parents. And it is just a beautiful, beautiful haunting and she never met her obviously because she died but it is– but I will share that you with something that I have on my will. 49:56 AD: So, your grandmother told some stories to her children like what had happened like to her family. How about your grandfather, was he also like sharing anything? 50:51 CA: I think he was quieter. He would share some with his children but honestly the majority of the verified history comes from my uncle in his travels. He was a physicist, a world renowned physicist and he did work in Yerevan, and he has done a significant amount of research and if I show you this video, give you this video I have it on CD, DVD, you will see everything that he learned and he told us the story and there is documented histories that some of my cousins and their spouses had continued to tell and it is like these documented things that keep getting added to. So, but the stories started with my grandparents but my uncle being– he was then professor Emeritus and the Virginia Tech and he did– so he documented a lot for the rest of it– he did, he did and we were close but we have video of him telling the story and with a map and you know here–we are all sitting there its out at our camp so I would be happy to share it with you because it is– 51:40 AD: Yeah that gives the family history, absolutely. So, is there anything like left over from your grandmother like anything like represents, like for example you have this poem you cherish, like anything like did she do anything like whatever, handmade ̶ 52:09 CA: Crochet, she did– she learnt that here was not really Armenian style– 52:14 AD: It is here. 52:15 CA: It is something here but I do have and I do not wear it much it is an eighteen-carat gold bangle. She had two when she came here; bracelet that I have had repaired it a number of times. It is soft gold but I wore it a lot, but it is a beautiful– 52:37 AD: Do you know what it is called because of the carat. 52:40 CA: Right, the high quality, and I have had it repaired; it is a cool thing I will be happy to show you, you know but there– 52:48 AD: So, she came with that. 52:50 CA: She had two of them when she came with them and my cousin has the other one. My sister has other artifacts, like my grandfather’s prayer beads, these special beads. There are certain things that we had but not too much tangible and intangible but my sister has a lot of photographs, we have, you know we have numbers of them but so yeah, I would be happy to give you photos and– 53:30 AD: So, you met them right your grandparents? 53:32 CA: Oh, yes, yes. So, they lived in Binghamton until maybe 1972. 53:41 AD: So, you were still young? 53:44 CA: Well– eleven, twelve–they moved out with my aunt in California and then they died there as they got older but we spent a lot of time with them when I was young. 53:57 AD: So, do you remember their house? 54:01 CA: Uh-huh. They lived down Mathew Street in Binghamton. 54:04 AD: So, like when you entered the house did it look like any other American house or was it different? 54:10 CA: Yeah, it did. It did. It was American looking. I remember the smell. 54:16 AD: Okay, so it smelt different right? 54:18 CA: It did. It smelled like lamb, yeah. I mean I remember that smell. And when I smell it I have a neighbor who is Lebanese and when she– I smell and it is like [gasps] you know because it is not–yeah– 54:31 AD: Smell is one of the important– it triggers our memory that is for sure. So, but not because like, I do not know the way they decorated the house or– 54:43 CA: Yeah, it was just more various plain simple nothing, nothing overly–so they had pictures of two famous paintings, I remember, the blue boy, the guy– I have to find them for you I do not know what they are but you know every American home has them. Like some kind of you know, they were fake and you call two things and it is interesting do you know this story about when all the men were gone this book– 55:30 AD: Yes, yes. 55:32 CA: So, my grandparents had a radio on Clinton Street and were referencing this book. So, this book I actually gave to an alumni era but those are reference to my family– 55:49 AD: Who is the author? Do you know the author? 55:51 CA: Yes, Alexi is very close with the guy Ron Capalaces. 55:54 AD: Really? 55:55 CA: He is– this is fascinating. Have you read this book? 55:58 AD: No, I have not. 55:59 CA: So, I am– these are my campus copies but Alexi will give you this book to read we have a few copies at home so you can read it. And it is all about growing up in the first world and when this book came out I felt like I was getting a glimpse into my father’s growing up on Clinton Street, and it is a story about in the first world war I told you all the immigrants lived, and when the men went to war and what it was like for these young boys, and this is– so, I cannot remember what page it is on– it is more towards the beginning. It is very simple writing. It is not academic at all. It is a –he tells a great story– 56:56 AD: But that is a memoire. 56:57 CA: Yeah. 56:57 AD: Yeah, I love that kind of work. 57:01 CA: On the street the native languages are various first worlders filled the shops, grocery stores and bars. From Slovak and Polish to Russian Lithuanian blah blah blah. There is a reference of them going into the Abashian’s apartment on Clinton Street and listening to the radio– 57:20 AD: That is your– 57:21 CA: That is my father’s– 57:26 AD: House? 57:27 CA: Yeah, it was the apartment that he was born on Clinton Street– 57:30 AD: Wow! 57:30 CA: And it was interesting they were so poor but they had a radio, you know. 57:34 AD: Wow! Yeah. 57:38 CA: There is a reference to it here. Alexi can tell you everything about it and he will loan you a copy, the book it is very fascinating. But it is not a lot about Armenians– but it is only references. 57:52 AD: Probably we have it in special collections, if it is local history– 57:54 CA: Right you might– 57:58 AD: Yeah, I can just grab it from the stacks and look at it. So, who is this Ronald? 58:04 CA: Ron Capalaces, he was a guy who is younger than my father but he lives in North Caroline now and he just told his story of his childhood. I mean he had a different career. He was not a writer. This would have been the last ten years. 58:23 AD: He’s just retired? 58:24 CA: Yeah, and decided he wanted to tell the story and it is a fascinating– and I give this as gifts to all alumni graduates where an eight years old who grew up in the first world and who are so moved emotionally moved by it they live all over the country you know and they give us money to support, you know, alumni and support the campus so we give those to them. 58:51 AD: Oh, yeah. So, do you cook Armenian food? 58:54 CA: So, one staple that we cook all of the time is Armenian rice pilaf and I do it because I like it but Alexi loves it and he wants it when he is not eating potatoes because he is Russian. [laughs] He eats potatoes all the time. He loves pilaf. So, it is the one staple, and we do– the only time I cook Armenian food is when we get together as a family. We make shish kebab. We do the köfte, fasulye is– my sister is an expert in it. We do this, sarma, dolma. We also– my family and I am not sure it was really my grandmother would make matsun on the counter, the yogurt. So, this was an interesting thing is that she came with a jar of starter, you know how when you make yogurt, you use the pre– and she in her entire life made matsun with the starter that came and it was this– so she brought it with her. It was like bringing a piece of her family and she gave some to my mother and my mother would make it and then you know put it and scald the milk put the starter in it, put on the counter. My grandmother would put her sweater around the bowl, wrap it with a towel and then put a sweater and button the sweater up. It was a very fascinating thing and would sit on the counter. So, I eat a lot of plain yogurt. 1:00:36 AD: Me too. 1:00:36 CA: We do, because we were raised on it. So that is one staple. That and pilaf are regular staples in my diet. 1:00:45 AD: And it is very digestive, if you have like a bad stomach– 1:00:48 CA: I do actually– I do. 1:00:49 AD: Yeah, that is the way to go. Oh, so that is interesting. So, who taught you how to cook Armenian food? 1:00:55 CA: So, my grandmother taught my mother and my mother taught me and my aunts, you know, when get together in the family groups. We had so many more get together. My father and his siblings would all get together at least once to twice a year in Binghamton and all the kids would come and all my cousins and it would be all Armenian food. So– 1:01:24 AD: And çörek right? 1:01:27 CA: Right. She did not make that too much, she made some other things. Some of the stuff I have because of the Armenian Church, you know they’ve sales, you know they have the– but my grandmother– one of my cousins put together some recipes from my grandmother’s, you know, how they made, you know, it was interesting because it was not measure, you know, he was like [making a sound] you do this [making a sound] you know, and she would say get this much– this was not really– but different kind of breads and rolls and different, you know, things but– so– but we do not do it often enough, you know, we do like once a year when we get together in the summer and we make everything but– 1:02:12 AD: So, have you ever wondered like where your ancestor came from? Did you–like–did you want to go back and see? After it is very safe right now? 1:02:28 CA: You know– yeah, I mean right now, I would not but there was a time in my life like I did. I mean my aunt Sarah the oldest did a lot of travel in Lebanon, and you know, the artist Guiragossian? 1:02:47 AD: Uh-huh? 1:02:48 CA: My aunt was close with him. I do not know, but my sister has some very big valuable Guiragossian pieces that were my aunt’s. And one when he painted of her. I do not know what the relationship there was but you know– 1:03:14 AD: Artists, you never know right? 1:03:15 CA: Yeah, you know. But she spent a lot of time with him like in France and you know it is just something just made me think of that, but my aunt spent a lot of time and my uncle did a lot, the physicist, did a lot with sharing with us about his travel to Yerevan, he was helping them with some physicist related things or super some kind of collider thing to help stir the Armenian economy with technical things. And so, he Hovnanian actually to as he who travelled with there, and they Hovnanian supported all of kind things like orphanages and schools and everything and then my uncle also did a lot of that. And I cannot remember the relationship that we have a relation to previous Armenian president; my family, I do not know what the relationship is, it may be in that video but so it is another interesting story. 1:04:29 AD: Yeah, that is interesting. I think Yerevan is okay to travel. 1:04:34 CA: Yeah, actually my niece went there with her friends. She is very connected with her Armenian heritage. She is also gay. She is– but she speaks Armenian. They went to Armenian school, you know, in Long Island up to six grade but she went and she– they had a horrible experience because she got sick and the environment and the town in which they went, and she had to go to the hospital because she got, you know, like a belly bug and she needed to get some IV but it was very primitive and she had a horrible experience but– and her partner is Armenian. 1:05:17 AD: From the US. 1:05:18 CA: So, she– her parents are from, yes, she is from LA area but her parents are first generation– maybe they lived in Armenia, might’ve been part of the Los Angeles settlement but they would probably love to talk to you and they are young. They are very involved with the gay Armenian network. 1:05:42 AD: It does not matter– I would love to! 1:05:45 CA: They are young people. So, I mean they are in their thirties and very well-connected. 1:05:50 AD: I mean the thing is this project is not–it is like really third, fourth generation. So, like how– you know, how it was like growing up here what stayed, what did not stay. So, language is the very first thing is out of the picture, not just for Armenian community, for every immigrant communities. The very first thing people lose is the language. 1:06:20 CA: Now, Lata grew up speaking Armenian and her parents speak it. So, she is extremely fluent. 1:06:28 AD: But that is like one special case, and so that would be great if she would talk to me– even you know we can do skype interview. I do a lot of skype interviews. So, they need to like go anywhere, or we can just talk on skype. 1:06:45 CA: They would love to talk to you about it. 1:06:47 AD: That would be great. 1:06:50 CA: It is interesting that they are– of their generation– our children’s generation– they are the most connected. 1:06:58 AD: That is like really interesting. 1:07:01 CA: Her mother has not connected really but she is. 1:07:05 AD: So that is interesting like how it skipped a generation and the started again. So that– I would love to talk to her if she wants– 1:07:12 CA: She would absolutely want to talk to you. She just got back from the Washington march. She is out of her mind crazy. She is so upset. She cannot even speak. She is like, you know, she is not speaking to her father right now. 1:07:28 AD: Wow. 1:07:30 CA: It is that bad. Yeah. 1:07:32 AD: So, what happened to your parents? So, they got divorced, are they– is anyone alive? 1:07:37 CA: No, they are both dead. So, my parents got divorced when I had gone away to school and– 1:07:46 AD: Where did you go to school? 1:07:47 CA: So, I went away in my high school–senior of high school to a private college preparatory school in New Hampshire. And then I went to Hartwick College for two years and then I got sick, I actually came home. I had gotten sick. I have a Crohn’s disease, it is a bowel disease, so I ended up coming home because I had a major surgery and I withdrew from school and then I finished one class at a time in Binghamton and I worked in my father’s business. I worked with him. 1:08:20 AD: I see. 1:08:21 CA: So, my parents got divorced and then my father remarried a third time– a woman– 1:08:32 AD: Another non-Armenian? 1:08:33 CA: Non-Armenian. They got whiter by the minute they got white WASPY southern this last one was more Southern and she– they did not stay together but so it is an interesting story but, so yeah, they divorced and my mother died in two thousand and two. Actually, right before I met Alexi she died. She had lung cancer and she died. She was sixty-six, young. 1:09:06 AD: Very young. 1:09:07 CA: Yeah, young and my father had, he died at eighty-two, six years ago, in Florida. So, it has been a big that was difficult, oh, because Alexi was very close with my father. 1:09:25 AD: Oh, really! 1:09:26 CA: He does not have an overly close relationship with his father but he is getting there now, you know, because his mother raised him. His parents split when he was two. So, he was– he became very attached to my father. And spent summers with him, at the lake house and you know, just a very, very good relationship. So, we have in the last six years now, since he has been gone, it has been very– it is hard, you know. 1:10:01 AD: Oh, yeah, I can imagine. So, you were really close to your father? 1:10:06 CA: Yes, yes, I was close to both of my parents, very close. So– 1:10:13 AD: Yeah, that must be sad. 1:10:15 CA: It is hard because something happens– are your parents– either of your parents living? 1:10:21 AD: My father died when I was seven years old, yeah but thank God my mom is still with us knock on wood so– yeah so, she is eighty-two years old and so that is the reason I go to Turkey every summer and then my daughter, also, she loves spending time with her. So, every summer we go there and always kind of like so she is, I mean she is like waiting for us to arrive and it was sad to leave her behind because– 1:10:55 CA: She does not want to come? 1:10:59 AD: She came when my daughter was born to help me and– but, you know, when you are old, although, a lot of her friends are dead now, but still it is her own environment– 1:11:13 CA: Well, Alexi’s mother came here last year and it did not work. 1:11:18 AD: Did she go back? 1:11:19 CA: Yeah. She did and she said Russia might be terrible but it is all I know–you know there is a lot of complicated factors but it is–there is a guy actually he is married to the daughter of one of my neighbors and he taught here, he is math. And he is Turkish and his mother will not come here, and she is very old and he travels and she will not come here and we were having this conversation– 1:11:51 AD: Someone from Turkey teaches math here– 1:11:57 CA: Right, he just retired but he is, he is in Binghamton. Yeah, he lives in Binghamton and his wife is Italian, married to Italian. They grew up in Australia interestingly enough but– 1:12:09 AD: Okay, so a lot of Turkish people migrated to Australia like after they stopped going Germany they started to go to Australia. You know Australia takes a lot of immigrants, a lot of Greeks, I think more Greeks went to Australia than Turks. So, there are some Kurds too. So apparently, his family migrated to– 1:12:35 CA: Well, actually his mother still lives in Turkey. She lives in the South in a beautiful like almost tropical beautiful area– 1:12:43 AD: Mersin probably. 1:12:44 CA: Yeah, so she still lives there but his wife’s–his wife was born there they live in Binghamton but Tony is Italian but the Italians settled in Australia, I do not know how the whole thing worked out. 1:13:03 AD: A lot of Italian– so he did not settle in–his family did not settle in Australia. I know there are a lot of Greeks, Italians, and Turks migrated there because they were taking all these immigrants in the sixties. So, what is his name? 1:13:18 CA: I cannot remember his name but her father’s name is Marcello. I can find out. I can find out who he is. 1:13:24 AD: No that is okay. I am not very connected with Turkish community. I mean, I never even knew there was a Turkish professor here teaching math, I had no idea. 1:13:42 CA: Yeah and he was here a lot of years he just retired because I talked to him this fall when he was across the street visiting the– so– I have to go to the ladies’ room. 1:13:54 AD: Yeah, yeah. No that is fine! I think that is it. We really covered it all. 1:13:56 CA: Thank you. 1:14:00 AD: Well, thank you so much and then I will just end this. Let me just stop it. (End of Recording) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Catherine Abashian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/25821fb6fe0c54b12f91d2f50edecd42.mp3 49f89e172981d85d2df3779883f51659 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed English, Charles Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1978-04-28 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:08 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55901">Interview with Charles English</a> Subject LCSH English, Charles -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Pharmacists -- Interviews; United States -- History -- Civil War, 1861-1865; Underground Railroad; Windsor (N.Y.); Korean War, 1950-1953; Harpur College; Hotchkiss Family; Jed Hotchkiss; Eli Crocker; Windsor, NY Town Clerk Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Charles English Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of interview: 28 April 1978 Dan: Charlie, would you start out giving me your life and working experiences in the community, ah, starting with your date and place of birth? Charlie: Well, I was born, ah, July 18, 1930 in Binghamton and, ah, ah, my father was E.C. English. My mother's name was, ah, Edna L. Zimmerman, maiden name—she was from Johnson City. Ah, I was brought up in Windsor and lived here more or less all my life except for the time I was in the service of the United States during the Korean War and, ah, my two jaunts at college—ah, I attended, ah, Harpur College after graduation from Windsor High School—graduated from Harpur in 1952 with an A.B. in Foreign Languages—Spanish, ah, was the Major—and shortly thereafter, of course, was drafted into the Army and, ah, was led to believe that I was going to be a Spanish interpreter, and you know how that goes. (laughter). Ah, ended up being an Infantryman—sent to Korea with a bunch of, ah, Puerto Rico soldiers at the time—my only interpreting was, ah, trying to translate orders from the American officers of these Puerto Ricans. Well after, ah, in Korea, I ended up in, ah, the Signal Corps and worked in the troop information and education and ah, ah, raising the, ah, educational level of soldiers after, when the war ended and we came back to the United States. My dad and I had a conference about the drugstore, ah, and I decided that I would go back to Pharmacy School, so we went four years to Albany Pharmacy and, ah, had our B.S. Degree in 1959, so I'm now the third generation of the pharmacists here in the English family in Windsor, and I believe probably we're the oldest, ah, pharmacy, ah, being in one family in Broome County. Dan: When was it first established, Charlie? Charlie: My grandfather took it over in April of 1900 and, ah, the same pharmacy had been operated prior to him by, ah, Dusenberry and Lyons for a few years, and prior to them, ah, by a man named T.V. Furman, who ah, also was a prominent local official, ah, politician, and ah, I don't know but what I remember, a Board, ah, member of the Board of Supervisors of Broome County, and I understand Mr. Furman, ah, went into business as a result of buying out Dr. A.B. Stillson. Dan: Umhm. Charlie: Doc Stillson's father. Dan: Um. Charlie: Doc. Stillson's. Dan: Yeah. Charlie: So, ah, it's been in the same locale—the drugstore’s been in the same location for about a hundred years and, ah, 78 of those years now in our family. Dan: Umhm. Charlie: Ah, then ah, along with this, ah, we, we bought the building—joint owners—Marine Midland Bank and myself (laughter), and ah, we rent out two apartments upstairs and we rent out another section on the ground level to, ah, the Government, for it's been a Windsor Post Office in that location for as long as I can remember. Matter of fact, ah, I guess that was the location of the Post Office way back in the 1830s—before that building existed it was still in the same spot, so ah, we haven’t changed too much. Dan: Uh huh. Charlie: Ah then, ah, ah, I, ’cause, ah, I live here, ah, in what you call the Hotchkiss House or Old Stone House—I guess it’s the only stone house in Broome County, ah, to my knowledge. Dan: Uh huh. Charlie: And this was built sometime between 1823 and 1825 by a man named Stiles Hotchkiss. His grandfather, David, is an original pioneer for the, ah—let a tract of land here in the village of Windsor, that he received, ah, from the Government, and he came here in about 1789 and settled on this tract. He divided some of the tract up among his, ah, six or more sons—I forget how many right off hand, and of course they in turn subdivided among their sons. David Hotchkiss was, ah, credited with, ah, being the person who designed the Village of Windsor—laid out the streets, ah, much as they are today. Main Street, Chapel Street, Grove are all part of his original plan and, ah, also he's a founder of the local Presbyterian church, incidentally, the same Presbyterian church that's here today. He, his family also you might credit with the, ah, one of the families who helped found the first, ah, public school here in Windsor also. Well this stone house, incidentally, was originally built for the purpose of being a distillery, and up in back here they have a series of three falls on what is now known as Hotchkiss Creek—originally the Hotchkiss family called it Falls Creek. Dan: Uh huh. Charlie: And they had a mill over, ah, near the Village, ah, constructed by, ah, M. Raphael Hotchkiss, Stiles's father, and about 1825 they moved that, ah, mill over here and built here on the creek and, ah, well, according to the 1885 Broome County Histories on the purest whiskey, ah, known to man, was manufactured here, and sometime or another after that, the family did move into the house and used it jointly as both the business and as a residence. Dan: Uh huh. Charlie: The house is, ah, I guess what you call typical, ah, Federal period. There's two or three houses around town here that were built by, built by the Hotchkiss family. All of them, although this one is stone, there is another house down on the corner of Kent and Main, which is a wood clapboard house built on the same style, and they were copied after patterns in the Hotchkiss family up in Connecticut. Dan: Uh huh, very interesting. Now, ah, Charlie, how did you get started in your special interest here—your Civil War memorabilia? Charlie: Well, ah, I guess probably that results from, ah, joining the American Legion, ah. L remember, ah, when I got home from Korea in '54, ah, I been traveling for off and on, I guess about 3 weeks before I finally was able to get from the west coast to east coast due to, ah, storms and poor airplanes, as a matter of fact. When I got home, why, I went to a local barber—had a haircut, and ah, right then and there he talked me into joining the Legion, and ah, the following Memorial Day—some of the World War I vets, who for years had gone around and put flags out on the veterans’ graves all on, asked some of us newer, ah, Legionnaires if we'd go along and assist. In a sense, that was a mistake, because that first year started me on a project I've been doing every year since 1954, but we’d go around to, ah, a lot of the cemeteries here in Windsor, of which I believe there are 17 and with the exception of about 4 or 5, all of them are so-called abandoned cemeteries the town takes care of. Ah, they, ah, tombstones of some of the old Civil War veterans were beginning to fade away and became hard to read, so I became interested in, ah, making a record, and I did visit each cemetery and start copying down these names. Ended up, though, before I got done, I compiled a list of all the war veterans in the town of Windsor from the American Revolution through Korea—I haven't tackled the Vietnam era yet—and, ah, ah, then I began to do a little research on the men because I couldn't help but notice that a goodly number of the men in the Civil War, for example, either belonged to the 137th New York Volunteers, the 89th New York Volunteers, the 29th Infantry, or the 16th Independent Battery, which made me, ah, come to the realization they must have joined as a unit. Then, ah, began the historical research, and ah, the interest continually, ah, snowballed of course. The Museum, I guess, started because I decided I needed a few artifacts that maybe some of the men carried, and as a result we've gone from, ah, a couple of muskets, which I originally purchased, to, ah, the 45 by 40 building we have now to have our museum. Dan: Uh huh—how many muskets do you have now? Charlie: Well, I— Dan: Just guessing, I mean, you don't have to be exact. Charlie: I don't know—probably, ah, oh, 50 or 60 or more. Dan: Yeah—so in other words, it's been within the last 24-year period that you have accumulated this? Charlie: Yes, and another thing, too, about it is that, ah, a lot of people—of course, ah, the collection here, ah, due to inflation and so on and so forth, has become quite valuable. Where you used to be able to pick up a Civil War musket maybe for $25, it's at least ten times that now. Dan: Yeah. Charlie: And ah, I can't stress the point, ah, any stronger than that. Ah, yes, it does have monetary value, but that's not my interest—my interest is its historical value. Dan: Right. Charlie: I, ah, just like so many others I'm a temporary, ah, caretaker of these artifacts, and ah, after me, who knows who the next caretaker will be? But over there is a French and Indian War Brown Vest musket, for example, manufactured about 1765, and incidentally it has a Dublin Castle marking on it. Dan: Is that right? Charlie: Of interest to you people of Irish Descent (laughter), but I do know that musket was used in the French and Indian War, the Revolutionary War, probably the War of 1812. It was converted from percussion, from flint to percussion, about 1840, judging from the age of the hammer, and ah, it's been here in Windsor for I don't know how many years and, ah, here it is, ah, well over 200 years old, and like I say, ah, it probably had six generations of temporary caretakers. Dan: That's terrific, that's terrific. Would you, would you, ah, hazard a guess as far as your—the monetary value today of your full collection here? Charlie: Well, I really can't. Dan: Have you counted it at all? Charlie: I probably could determine it. Dan: Just roughly. Charlie: Well, of course another thing—I don't usually divulge, ah, ah, the general public what I think it might be worth—for insurance purposes, let us say that, ah, it's insured for approximately $60,000. Dan: Is that right? It’s, it's wonderful. I was, I'm sure everybody that comes through here is very impressed with the extensive collection—I've never seen anything like it before. Charlie: Well, from—there, again from the historical standpoint, ah, we do receive visitors from ah, ah, many areas that come through here that have heard about it, ah, fact, ah, here's a communication from, ah, a gentleman that is affiliated with the House of Commons of Canada, in Canada, who happens to be, like myself, a Civil War nut—he was an over-the-weekend guest with us here a couple of weeks ago, and it's surprising, here's a gentleman from Canada who, ah, knows all about Windsor, NY. He's related to the McClure's, who of course took part in the Clinton-Sullivan expedition, and ah, ah, early settlers over here just, ah, three miles up the road. Dan: Yeah. Charlie: Revolutionary War veteran. We have people from, ah, Virginia visit us frequently—ah, this house, in the year 1828 a man by name of Jed Hotchkiss was born, of which we have a picture or two here on the wall. Jed Hotchkiss, ah, went to his, ah, went to school here in Windsor and graduated from Virginia Academy—the one which his folks helped, ah, found, and after graduation he, ah, became a school teacher. He didn't need a college education in those day's—a High School certificate. To make a long story short, he ended up being, ah, in, a Founder of a boys’ academy at Mossy Creek, Virginia, along with a gentleman who had been one of his professors here at school, and he also, ah, ah, started another boys’ academy down there, down there near Churchville, ah, which he called Lock Willow, of which there are some pictures in the Library of Congress and the University of Virginia. Civil War broke out and his boys all enlisted in the Confederate Army and, ah, Jed Hotchkiss himself was approached by, ah, the Southern forces, ah, ah, to join them. His hobby had been for years mapmaking—his whole family around Windsor here had been surveyors and mapmakers, and some of the original roads and so on are laid out by members of his family. He did join the Confederate Army, and ah, shortly thereafter he, ah, joined them, as a civilian incidentally, ah, he was assigned and worked with Stonewall Jackson, and most of his life in service, ah, with the Confederate Officers who, ah, defended the Shenandoah Valley and, ah, he became a close personal friend of General Robert E. Lee, General Jubal Early, so on and so forth, and ah, I guess you might also say he became the unofficial, ah, Historian of Virginia, ah, ah, part in the Civil War. After the War he wrote the volume for the Confederate history on the State of Virginia and also collaborated with several other Confederate Officers who wrote histories on that, but the fact is he was born here in this house like I say in 1828, and some of his avid fans from Virginia have to make a trip up here now and then, you know, to check out his birthplace. Dan: Uh huh. Now according to the, ah, information here about the architectural aspects of your home, it was also listed as an Underground Railroad, at one time. Charlie: That's true, that's true. Dan: Do you have any particulars on that at all? Charlie: They have been unable to determine who owned the house at the time the Underground Railway was here, ah, I don't know if the Hotchkiss family still owned it or not. There is no question that there was a tunnel in our cellar—the rear of the, ah, house is a, ah, laid stone entryway with a hewn beam for a header over it, and ah, that was the entryway to the tunnel. My wife's father, who used to be a miner, is the last one that was, that I know of, that was in that tunnel. It was unsafe, so they strung wire across the entryway and then boarded it up. The tunnel left, ah, the rear of the house and came out someplace up here, ah, on the creek and, ah, every year or so we find indentations in our back lawn where something caved in and we have to fill it in, but as far as the particulars itself, all I've been able to gather is hearsay from some of the older residents around town. Dan: Now was this—your museum—this building here, built the same time the house was? Charlie: No, I built the museum here in 1970, and I faced it with stone in order to match the house. Dan: That was a good idea, that was a good idea, yeah. Charlie: This collection used to be in our cellar and we sort of outgrew the cellar. Dan: Umhm, yeah. Of course this represents, ah, all purchases, or do you get some donations? Charlie: Oh no, no—purchases. A lot of the items are purchased, a lot of them are donated and a few of them are on loan. Dan: Yeah. Charlie: And of course we carry insurance on everything regardless of whether it's ours or what, and ah, some of—it's surprising, when I first opened the museum, there was very little in here, but on the other hand, with some of the donations, when people saw it was going to be a serious venture, then they— Dan: Then they wanted a part of it—be a part of it. Charlie: They, they contributed. Dan: Yeah. Charlie: And ah, ah. Dan: What are the hours that you're open, Charlie? Charlie: Well usually, ah, since I have to be at the drugstore a good share of the time, ah, it's open mainly on weekends. Dan: Weekends. Charlie: And, ah, I advise a lot of the people who are interested in seeing it, ah, if they will contact me at the store, make an appointment, I will be glad to open it for them evenings or whenever it is convenient for both of us, but other than that I say, primarily during good weather—the weekends. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Ah, getting back to your pharmacy, ah, did you notice a, quite a change, as far as the dispensing of prescriptions from the date of your dad and your grandfather up to the present date? In other words, there wasn't the repackaged generic and, ah, packaging there is today, but you really had to mix your own drugs. Charlie: That's true, and ah, when I was a youngster, I used to help my dad and grandfather—we used to make up, ah, ah, liniment for the athletic squad at the school, you know, and it was done by hand and, ah, ah, there were very few things that were not compounded. I remember when things like achromycin and terramycin came out and what a marvelous thing it was to add a little water to a bottle, shake it up, but ah, ah, ‘course today, we have, ah, medicine you couldn't buy for any kind of money—some of it as long as ten years ago, and as granted, there isn't much compounding, but on the other hand I don't think my dad or my grandfather, either one, would be very happy with, ah, today's, ah, method of operating a pharmacy. Ah, a lot of that I blame on the government, but it's, ah, ah, there's as much paperwork or more than is the actual work that, ah, you do along the line of pharmacy, and ah, there’s a great deal of regulations that never existed even ten years ago that, ah, it may be good, I don't know, but ah, I personally feel there's too much government interference, not only in my business but everybody else—so some politician can perpetuate his job, you know. (Laughter). Dan: Right—ah, going up the road a little ways, ah, the road to Ouaquaga, are you acquainted very much with the Shaker Barn? Charlie: Yes. Dan: The Shaker Sect—how long ago were they, ah, active? Charlie: Ah, I would guess, ah, probably the latter part of, ah, the last century was their high point here in Windsor. Matter of fact this stone house, I find in some of the records, was ah, the mortgage was held by the Shakers when they were here. There's a man, I believe his name is Levi Shaw, who was a Shaker who operated a sawmill right down here, ah, near the river bridge, and ah, they all tied in together. Dan: Uh huh. Charlie: Ah, the ah, Shaker Museum, incidentally, in ah, Chatham, New York, now, ah, Gary Hinman, ah, is, ah, working up there, and he's tied in a few strings that were loose here, regarding the Shaker history. Dan: Yeah, yeah—it's very interesting. Do you happen to know what the significance is of having an entrance and an exit to the Shaker Barn? Charlie: Matter of fact, I don't. Do you? (Laughter). Dan: No I don't. I saw it mentioned, you know, or ah, read about it mentioned someplace, and I just wondered what the significance was. It was probably part of their religious background, you know? Charlie: No I don't. Dan: Do you have any children, Charlie? Charlie: Oh yes, we have, ah, a boy who is eighteen, then we have a girl that is eleven and a boy that is, ah, ten. Dan: Uh huh. Charlie: And of course the, ah, our oldest son's out on his own, so to speak, now—he went to BOCES and learned plumbing and heating, and ah, he’s doing quite well with that. Dan: That’s, that’s a good trade. Charlie: Then, ah, my younger ones here—they're my helpers, you know, here at the museum—yeah, when we need the glass cleaned. Dan: Do you hope to get a pharmacist out of one of them? Charlie: I don't know—to tell you truthly, I'd like to discourage it. Dan: You'd like to discourage it? Charlie: Uh huh. I can't, ah, I don't care if it's pharmacy or whether it's buying a new car or what—consumerism is a big thing today, and ah, I think it's nice that, ah, people are able to buy things as economically as possible, but on the other hand I think the—not only the American workman but the, I suppose the workmanship from our friends across the seas, is terrible. Dan: Yeah. Charlie: You, yourself, probably back in 1936—if you bought a new car, it lasted you ten years or twelve years, right. Dan: They're only built to last a couple of years. Charlie: They're built to sell, period, and the same way in, ah, the ah, pharmacy business, ah, everything is aimed at consumerism, not quality. Dan: Right, right—yeah, I know my, my car is rusting out and it's only a ‘73. Charlie: Oh that’s, I, ah, I don't think I would encourage my son to be a retail pharmacist—maybe if he wanted to be a pharmacist in another field. Dan: Yeah. Charlie: There's too much competition, too much junk for sale. Dan: Right, right, it's no longer a drug store—perfect example is Eynon—call themselves Eynon Drugs and sell everything. Charlie: Yeah, true. Dan: Well, is there anything else of interest that you think you would like to add on to this, ah, interview, Charlie, before I terminate it? Charlie: Well, I can't think of any. Dan: What clubs do you belong to? Charlie: Oh gee, let's see. I'm trying to get out of things instead of get in them, ah, always like that. I've been a member of the American Legion, member of Chamber of Commerce here, ah, I ah, worked with the Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts, in fact, I'm on the, presently on a Boy Scout committee here. I guess at one time or another I belonged to almost every organization we've had in town. Church groups, ah, and Civic and, ah, now they do have the museum. I try to, ah, spend a little more time here and a little less time out, ah, in some of the organizations, ah, and ah, along of course, Fire Company, and ah I'm still a part-time policeman here, we have a— Dan: Oh, are you helping out John Gray? Charlie: Yeah, I do that, and ah, ah, ‘course I've been Town Clerk, too, for—I've been in the Town Clerk's office, so to speak, as a Deputy or Town Clerk for 25 years now. That takes a little time also. Dan: Yes, yes. Charlie: So I limit my outside activities. I really enjoy the museum and, ah, especially the Civil War part and the part that Broome County men played, and ah, I can completely lose all my problems or cares I might then, I have had during the day by getting involved in this business of Broome County History. Dan: It’s wonderful, that's great, yeah. Well, I certainly appreciate your taking the time off, Charlie, to permit me to come up and interview you. Charlie: By the way, I was just going to mention it—we were talking a little while ago about, ah, the immigrants idea and so on, so forth, established here, and this is a tidbit of Civil War history you might not know. You know where the IBM homestead is now? Dan: Umhm. Charlie: Well, that belonged to my great-grandfather Eli Crocker. Dan: Is that right? Charlie: OK, that was his farm. Now the fellow he sold it to is the one that, ah, apparently bought the—sold the land to IBM for their Country Club, because Eli never got a thing out of it—my grandmother was born down that way. Dan: Is that right? Charlie: And, ah, if you recall, a couple of years ago Tom Cawley had an article in his column in the Binghamton Press here, the tree that was cut for the keel of the Monitor—that, ah, in the Battle of the Monitor and the Merrimac, came from this area. Well it was Eli's farm that shipped that lumber up the canal down the Hudson River to Brooklyn Navy Yard, you know, when the keel of the Monitor, but ah. Dan: Very interesting. Charlie: I just thought that was a little, little sidelight from there. Dan: Yeah that's great, great—those little sidelights you don't find in history books. Charlie: Eli, incidentally, you know he joined the 8th Regiment in Broome County, and he had a manservant, negro—you know, wasn't a slave, manservant. OK—they called him Old Bay Tom, and, ah, funny part of it was, Old Bay Tom enlisted too, and I have a picture of him over here in his Civil War uniform, Negro. I don't know what Regiment he belonged to, I've never been able to find out—that was never in the Family Bible or anything, right—I imagine probably the 54th Massachusetts—that was one of the first Negro Regiments, but ah, one ironic thing about Old Bay Tom was, after he came back to the Binghamton area, he ran for Mayor of Binghamton. Dan: Is that right? Charlie: He knew that he didn't have a chance of winning, you know, but ah, just the idea of, probably, it was the first case of a, of a negro, ah, taking a step forward, asserting himself, trying to get in something that was, ah, a white man's haven, you know, and he drew a lot of votes, believe it or not. Dan: You don't recall what year that was, do you? Charlie: I did know, but I can't recall right now. Fact, I think there is a painting of this gentleman either down at the Courthouse or down at Roberson Memorial now. Dan: Uh huh. Charlie: But very few people knew that he was a candidate for Mayor of Binghamton, I guess in the 1870s. Dan: 1870s—that’s great. Charlie: But, ah, we got a couple other—that picture up in the corner, incidentally, Colonel Walton Dwight—remember, heard of him? Dan: No, no. Charlie: Remember when, ah, a couple of weeks ago, they had an article about those, ah, buildings on upper Front Street? They’re falling down—they weren't fit for even the welfare families. Dan: Oh yeah—Dwight Block, you mean. Charlie: Dwight Block. Dan: Yeah. Charlie: Ah, this Walton Dwight was the Mayor of Binghamton, and that was his home up in there, see. That, oh gee, that was a fabulous place. Well, Walton Dwight originally came from Windsor, West Windsor, and he wanted to become an Officer in the Union Army, and ah, of course they appointed a lot of their Officers, right. So he applied to New York State, but they wouldn't give him a Regiment so he went down here below Great Bend, in Pennsylvania, and they—he went into the lumber business. Well, it ended up that he and a whole bunch of lumberjacks signed up to get in and they got a Commission off of Governor Curtin in Pennsylvania, and they went in as the 2nd Pennsylvania Bucktails. Mr. Dwight, ah, became, ah, almost an instant hero ‘cause shortly after he, ah, became an Officer, he got involved in the Battle of Gettysburg and he got shot in the arm on the first day of the Battle—so naturally he goes to the hospital and all this, and he comes back, wounded hero in the Battle of Gettysburg, big thing, he comes back to the Binghamton area and they have the parades and everything and parade him around, what a wonderful fellow he is, you know, and sooner or later, ah, he got talked into running for Mayor and he became the Mayor of Binghamton. According, there again, to some history books, ah, while he was Mayor of Binghamton he ran into a number of financial difficulties—some of it was public money and, ah, but the big thing he did when he was Mayor of Binghamton—it seemed the Great Chicago Fire occurred during his term. He's very famous for the amount of money he was able to raise in Binghamton to send to the fire victims out in Chicago. Dan: Is that right? Charlie: Umhm. Dan: That’s very interesting, and now the Dwight Block, they're thinking about tearing that down—moving all the tenants out of it. Charlie: That's right, and that was his, that was a very prominent place in Binghamton history at one time. Dan: Well, Charlie, can I play this back for you? Charlie : Sure. Dan: OK. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Charles English Subject The topic of the resource English, Charles -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Pharmacists -- Interviews; United States -- History -- Civil War, 1861-1865; Underground Railroad; Windsor (N.Y.); Korean War, 1950-1953; Harpur College; Hotchkiss Family; Jed Hotchkiss; Eli Crocker; Windsor, NY Town Clerk Description An account of the resource Charles English discusses his upbringing in Windsor, NY, graduating from Harpur College, and serving in the Korean War. He worked as a third-generation family pharmacist and served as the Windsor Town Clerk. He discusses the Hotchkiss home and this family's involvement in the founding of Windsor and their contributions during the Civil War. He expresses his deep knowledge of the Civil War, detailing the museum he operates and its Civil War artifacts. He discusses his grandfather, Eli Crocker, who, along with his manservant, enlisted in the Civil War. After his discharge, Crocker's manservant, ran unsuccessfully, for Mayor of the City of Binghamton, NY. He also mentions that his house was used as an underground railroad stop. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 19 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource English, Charles ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-04-28 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 34:08 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b6d0eaf29a11155e2ecab64bebb36d27.jpg d9198edc03dc7190eafb4b6994c70b01 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9c3fff6823264773c958a4115711929e.mp3 b37026a91216edadeea69b404333327d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-17 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Charles Kaiser Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Charles Kaiser is an American author, journalist and academic administrator. He was the Associate Director at the LGBT Social Science and Public Policy Center at Hunter College in NYC, a leader of the Grove Fellowship Program, and a weekend nonfiction book critic at The Guardian US. Kaiser has won the grand prize at the Paris Book Festival and his book The Cost of Courage received great reviews from The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and The Christian Science Monitor along with some other publications. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Charles Kaiser is an American author, journalist and academic administrator. He was the Associate Director at the LGBT Social Science and Public Policy Center at Hunter College in NYC, a leader of the Grove Fellowship Program, and a weekend nonfiction book critic at The Guardian US. Kaiser has won the grand prize at the Paris Book Festival, and his book The Cost of Courage received great reviews from the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, and the Christian Science Monitor along with some other publications. Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Marijuana; Rock and Roll; George Orwell; John Lennon; Greed; Materialism; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Non-violence; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-war movement; De-segregation; Homophobia; Ronald Reagan; Kent State; Diversity; Edmund Muskie; Gay bar; NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt; Harvey Milk; Movies. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5041,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Marijuana; Rock and Roll; George Orwell; John Lennon; Greed; Materialism; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Non-violence; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-war movement; De-segregation; Homophobia; Ronald Reagan; Kent State; Diversity; Edmund Muskie; Gay bar; NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt; Harvey Milk; Movies. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 118:10 Subject LCSH Authors, American; Journalists; Hunter College; Kaiser, Charles--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Charles Kaiser Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 17 March 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two, testing. I guess we will start again. CK (00:00:17): By the way, I had lunch with two people today who you should strongly consider for your list. One of them in particular is Peter Goldman, who was the heart and soul of Newsweek Magazine from about 1962 to 1980 and he pretty much wrote all of the major cover stories about the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement. And he also wrote a biography of Malcolm X, which I believe is still in print in Houston colleges. And I think he would be a terrific person for you. SM (00:00:48): I think I have that book. I have so many books, I have to check that. CK (00:00:52): I do. It is one of the serious autobiographies. SM (00:00:56): Who was the second person? CK (00:00:58): The other one is Henrik Hertzberg, who was the chief political writer for the New Yorker, who was at Newsweek in Francisco in 1965. He wrote the first file about the [inaudible] and then he was Jimmy Carter's principal speech for the last two years of Carter's presidency. And he was twice the editor of the New Republic, and he was an extremely intelligent and particular fellow. SM (00:01:25): Wow. Did you mention I was doing this book? CK (00:01:28): I did. I mentioned that I had to get home so I could talk to you. SM (00:01:31): Okay. CK (00:01:33): But I will send you their emails and you can take it from there, do as you like. SM (00:01:37): Super. Actually, I read yesterday your fantastic piece on Walter Cronkite. CK (00:01:44): Oh, thank you very much. SM (00:01:45): Yeah, I had not seen that. I was going into the computer again and checking on some of your most recent last year, year and a half pieces, and I thought that was very well written and it really hit at home because he was the man I look to for the news. He was so different. CK (00:02:04): He was the glue for the whole country for a long time or he was certainly the glue for, well, for more than just the liberal part. He was the glue for the same part of the country throughout all of that insanity. SM (00:02:18): And I think you hit it right on target when you said when they hired Dan Rather. CK (00:02:23): It was the beginning of the end. SM (00:02:24): Yeah. I mean, his whole persona was so totally different, and Roger Mudd would have kind of continued. CK (00:02:34): Oh, Roger was completely in the same, and he had been Walter Cronkite for three months every summer for years before that and he just was not a good in-house politician. It was nothing more complicated than that. SM (00:02:45): Yep. All right. Well, we are going to start off here and I am going to start a little differently than I did when I was in New York because I have done a little more reading and I read (19)68, but I was kind of pinpointing some points here that you made in the book. You said that you thought the election of President Kennedy taught the students about the power of the individual, how an individual person could change the way the whole country felt about itself. And I know you put that in your introduction. Could you explain that in more detail in your thoughts? CK (00:03:25): Well, I think for anybody between the ages of, well, I was only 10, but I was pretty precautious 10 year old. But for anybody who was a teenager through his twenties living in America, that the contrast between this aged and maybe even a little senile President Eisenhower, who I agree looks better and better in fresh respect, but did not look so great at the time. The contrast between having this very old person and this extremely young and vigorous person with two young children in the White House and a glamorous wife, it was a breath of fresh air and it was also... Mean, his whole message was let us move the country forward, let us move into the modern world. And how better to move into the modern world than with a 40, I think he was 43-year-old president when he was in office. SM (00:04:21): Yes. Do you think that when boomers were very young though, they looked at Eisenhower as that grandfather figure and it made him feel comfortable when they were very young because he was like a grandfather to them. CK (00:04:34): I do not know about that. SM (00:04:35): No? CK (00:04:36): I do not really buy that, no. SM (00:04:39): You also talk early on in your book in the introduction, and we talked about this, about the Beatles and how important message of these four kids coming out of nowhere, but they had a talent that they could be involved in changing the world. And you also talked a lot about Bob Dylan. You kind of bring Kennedy, the Beatles and Dylan all together as the major forces that merged the culture and the politics. Could you briefly summarize your thoughts on that? CK (00:05:11): Well, the Beatles were important partly because they basically take the inspiration of Black American music and transform it into something which is accessible to everybody and they are important, as Allen Ginsburg put it, because they taught people that men could be friends and they really transformed, I think, they began the transformation of what the ideal of masculinity was. And it was certainly something with these long-haired, very attractive, very cute boys being the main cultural figures on the planet. It certainly softened the ideal of masculinity for an entire generation. Dylan, especially in the first four years of his recording career is the person who most successfully puts the ideals of an era to music. I mean, when he writes The Times They Are A-Changin', which, as he said to me, I wanted to write a big song in a simple way. He was very explicitly trying to, I think, galvanize a generation. Now, he quite soon decides that being explicitly political is going to limit him as an artist and he kind of abandons that around 1965. But for four years there-there was nobody who was more important in supporting the ideals of the civil rights movement through music than he. And Kennedy, Kennedy is intelligent and glamour and modernity. I do not know. Kennedy's the person who gets men to stop wearing hats. Kennedy stopped wearing a hat, the world stopped wearing hats. He had huge cultural influence way beyond whatever his political stance was. SM (00:07:20): I have ordered Gay Metropolis. I ordered it on Amazon because I wanted to get a first edition, so I got one on the way. But I have read a few things since I met you about two weeks ago, and that that you brought up the fact that there were four basic elements that kind of led to the Gay Liberation Movement. Obviously the Civil Rights Movement is an example of- CK (00:07:46): The civil rights movement is by far the most important thing of all because it is the example of Black people that really provides the entire blueprint for the gay liberation movement in terms of standing up to the power structure of straight white men in America. Nothing's more important than the civil rights movement as a model, but go on. SM (00:08:10): The other three. You have already talked about the Beatles. And the pill and the psychedelic revolution. CK (00:08:18): Yeah. Well, the pill, I think I said to you before, the reason the pill is so important is that it becomes the sort of public acknowledgement that sex can have a value which is not attached to appropriation. The straight sexual revolution is a necessary prerequisite to the gay sexual revolution because sex is no longer viewed as something which should only take place given marriage and for the purpose of creating a child. And until sex is given a value which is not connected to procreation, it is very hard to make an argument for gay liberation. SM (00:08:58): And then the psychedelic revolution. CK (00:09:00): Well, the psychedelic revolution is just part of... I mean, it is that and really the Vietnam War. It is everything which throws the established order into question. It is everything which makes it possible to question the way things are right now, and that includes the antiwar movement, taking LSD, you name it. SM (00:09:24): Well, you were at Columbia University, I believe, from (19)68 to (19)72. CK (00:09:28): Well, yeah, but I got there in the fall of (19)68, keep in mind. So I actually missed the biggest upheaval. I get there in the fall after the biggest upheaval, which is of course, the spring of (19)68. SM (00:09:46): Right. What was it like to be a college student in 1968? I know you got involved in the McCarthy campaign as a volunteer. CK (00:09:51): It was really more when I was at prep school because that was in the spring. So I was working out of the storefront in Windsor, Connecticut the fall of (19)68. Well, I do not know. Partly being a Columbia you had this sense that you were at the center of the world because even though there was not any particular disruption in the fall of (19)68, you still had enormous media attention. I mean, I can remember there was, I believe, a cover story about Newsweek probably with Mark Ru on the cover like a week or two after I got there. So you did feel like you were sort of under the microscope. I would say the main social thing going on was that everybody was smoking marijuana, except me. I was one of two people in my entire graduating class from prep school out of a hundred. I think I was one of two people who had not tried marijuana while I was in high school. And I did not until the spring of my freshman year at Columbia initially. I think movies were very important in the (19)60s. I think movies really were more important than books as a cultural driving force. And of course, most important of all was music. I think what connected us all more than anything else during that period was the music that we were listening to. SM (00:11:27): Now, you obviously talk a lot in your book about Bob Dylan, the Beatles music and particular songs that shaped the generation and may have even been a theme for the Generation. But besides the Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan, who are your top three, so to speak? What other musicians did you really look up to in the songs that had a meaning in your life? CK (00:11:52): Well, I would say everybody in Motown, all of the Motown stars and both the composers like Holland-Dozier-Holland and The Supremes, the Four Tops, all of those people. I think the success of Black Rock and Roll stars, the huge success, the mainstream success of Black rock and roll stars. Of course, there had been successful Black musicians before that, but I do not think there had ever been as many at the same time who had complete crossover appeal. And I think the fact that people in Birmingham, Alabama were as enthusiastic about The Supremes as the people in Philadelphia and Detroit was very important in a subliminal way to making the move towards Black equality possible. Because these were show business stars who were on the Ed Sullivan Show and everywhere else and it meant that there was, at least at the top, there was suddenly real equality between Black and white at least at the top of the music business. SM (00:13:08): Now, one of the albums in 1971, I can remember in the summer, I had to walk almost 10 blocks in Philadelphia to get it because I heard it came out, and that is What's Going On with Marvin Gaye. CK (00:13:20): Right, for example- SM (00:13:22): What an album. And then even a simple song, but it was one of the songs that the OJs did, Backstabbers. I thought that was... It had a message too. I listened to that over and over again and a lot of people liked the tune, but I always listened to the words itself. I know we asked this when I was in New York, but again, briefly describe your background. I know about your parents, your growing up years. And I am very curious again for you to talk about your relationship with Teddy White and the influence and inspired you to become a writer. Could you just give me a little bit about your background before you arrived at Columbia? CK (00:14:09): Well, before I was at Columbia I lived in Senegal from the age of 10 to 13. And I lived in London from the age of 13 to 16. And my father, one way or another, seemed to know most of the most successful writers and journalists of his generation and that very much included Teddy White who would come to our house occasionally from time to time. I remember he visited us once from the suburbs of Washington where we were living before we went to Senegal. And since he wrote really the most important book about John Kennedy's election and John Kennedy was the most important political figure in my life and everybody in my family fell in love with Teddy's book. And I think that at that point sort of subliminally implanted the idea in me of how exciting it could be to write a great non-fiction book. I always said that that book and the kingdom and the power about the New York Times were probably one of the two most important inspirations for me. SM (00:15:20): Well, one of the things I also learned since I was in New York is how important George Orwell is. You considered him the greatest writer ever. CK (00:15:30): Greatest journalist ever. SM (00:15:31): Yeah, greatest journalist ever. How were you introduced to him? CK (00:15:37): I was introduced to him because my brother, David, was at Harvard, was a senior, I think. Was he a senior? Yeah, he was probably the class of (19)69. And he decided to write his senior thesis about Orwell. And coincidentally it was in 1968 or... I do not know if it was considered or if this was White decided to do it, but the collected letters, essays and journalism, all of it came out in four volumes in 1968. So for the first time all of this nonfiction and work was available in one place. And I think I was infected by my brother's enthusiasm, who when you came across a particularly exciting passage in any of these volumes, he would read it aloud at the dinner table. SM (00:16:33): Was 1984 a major influence on you? CK (00:16:39): I certainly remember it as one of the scariest books I have ever read. I remember it that way. Really what Orwell did was he had all of these ideas. He wrote about all the ideas in 1984 and in Animal Farm first in the non-fiction form and then he took the same ideas and use them again to write novels. And I think for me probably cumulatively the non-fiction stuff is more important. But I admire him because he is the cleanest most effective writer I know and he was utterly courageous, perfectly willing to infuriate all the communists by writing a very balanced book about the Civil War in Spain after fighting on the Republican side. But he wrote a book which showed that there were no obvious heroes on either side of that war. And it is just his lifelong iconic of his class. And the fact that most of the time, but I think probably overall if you look at everything he wrote, that he had a be better record of predicting what was going to happen than anybody else. So there were certainly exceptions. He thought that there would be inevitably be fascism in wartime Britain, which never happened. But that was one of his rare mistakes, right? SM (00:18:11): When you think of the (19)60s, what was the watershed moment that you thought the (19)60s began and when you thought it ended from your personal perspective? CK (00:18:23): I think surely they begin for me with the election of John F. Kennedy. And there is so many arbitrary ways to say when they ended, but I think they began to end when Richard Nixon resigned from office and I would say the absolute final nail on the coffin was when John Lennon was murdered in 1980. SM (00:18:52): 1980, yeah. When you look at that period, from your own perspective as a person who lived it, who was a college student in those crucial years, (19)68 to (19)72, I am not sure if you really said this in your book, what is the biggest disappointment that you feel when you look at that whole era and when you look at your generation, the boomers? What is your biggest disappointment in them and what is your thing you are most proud of within that group from that period? CK (00:19:35): I am proudest of the fact that I think we did more than any other generation to do what Molly Ivins describes. She says that the whole history of the United States can be viewed as steadily extending the principles of the Constitution to everyone. I mean, I am proudest of the fact that life for the average woman, the average African American, the average gay person could not hardly be more dramatic, different in 2010 than it was in 1958. I think all of that stuff is unbelievably important. And of course, I am most disgusted by the fact that what was briefly an anti-materialistic generation has become the most materialistic generation in the history of the world probably. SM (00:20:34): Give some examples of that because I have gotten that feedback from others too. CK (00:20:41): Examples of greed? What are you looking for? What do you mean? SM (00:20:44): Just some examples that you say you are disappointed in them because of their love for materialism. Is there specific instances you can explain, individuals? CK (00:20:56): Well, it is just a general. I mean, it seems like the general... Nothing was more looked down upon in my family than conspicuous consumption. Conspicuous consumption was considered one of the venal sins and I would say this generation has become as famous for conspicuous consumption as it is for anything else. SM (00:21:24): One of the most important things of, who said, the expansion of higher education, more students going to college in the (19)60s and (19)70s with the State universities and the community colleges, and of course you had your Ivy League schools, Clark Kerr in his book, The Uses of the University talks about the multiversity, about the links between what is going on in the university and what is going on in the corporate world. And supposedly during the time that you and I were both in college, the concept within local parentis where the college is acting like a parent, which was very big in the (19)50s, in early (19)60s, was not happening and the students did not want it in the (19)60s. It seems like it has come back. The question I am trying to get at here are your thoughts on the universities from that period, not just the Ivy league Columbia, but universities all over the country and how they responded to the student protest movement and whether the criticism that was sent their way by students was correct, that we were linked too closely with the corporate world. Charles, I want to mention, I interviewed Arthur Chickering last week, one of the great educators in higher education who wrote Education and Identity. And he said to me, one of the most revealing things he said, I never thought I would live to see again the corporations taking over the university. He has written a major piece, I think it is going to come out next month in one of the major magazines, that it is the same way it was when the students were criticizing it in the (19)60s. CK (00:23:04): That sounds right. Interesting. Well, in the short term, at least at Columbia, basically all of the.... I mean, the short term for the next 20 years or so, most of the goals of the protestors were fulfilled by the university administration. They democratized things by having a student senate or a university senate, which included student representation. They certainly did much less expansion into the community for a long time of the kind like going to gym in a public park, which is one of the things that is popular in 1968. But probably the thing that we were most excited about was in the fall of 1968, and which was a very explicitly done to dampen political activity, was the fact that they lifted all of this restrictions on the hours when women could visit men in their dormitory rooms. SM (00:24:11): Well, that was important. CK (00:24:12): That was important. SM (00:24:15): Yeah. I remember when my mom went to college back in the forties, my dad used to visit her in the residence hall and they had the woman, I forget the name of the person who ran the residence hall, the house mother or whatever, they had to walk by the room, they had to make sure the legs were on the floor at all times. CK (00:24:32): Said that was one limb on the floor. SM (00:24:36): Yeah. She told me about that. Some of the, I put down here, what do you think the overall impact is of the boomer generation on society? Do you think they have then good parents and or good grandparents in terms of sharing what it was like in the (19)60s and carrying some of the values into the future generations? Have they done a good job with that? CK (00:25:07): Yeah, I think certainly the parents of my social class and my generation I would say are more self-consciously parental than our parents were and partly because... I think that one of the really good things of the women's liberation movement was that it meant that men did become far more involved in the emotional lives of their children than the men of our parents' generation who were... It was a really a large part, a feeling that... Elise and I may be extrapolating too much from my own family, but I think everywhere that it was the woman's job to take care of the emotional development of the children and it was the man's job to bring home the bacon basically. SM (00:25:59): If you were to- CK (00:26:00): And I think now there is much more equality in the division of responsibilities. SM (00:26:07): If you were to place some adjectives on the boomer generation, particularly this 15 percent of the activist that seemed to participate in some sort of protest, what were some of their strengths and what were some of their weaknesses in your point of view? CK (00:26:29): Well, I think the main strengths of the activist was the perception of the white activist was the perception that the Vietnam War was an evil and wasteful enterprise and that almost anything that you could do to call attention to that was a worthy thing to do, an important thing to do. Certainly when people veered off into violence of making bombs, I would say I certainly parted company with them there. But I think all of the nonviolent stuff I think is very important and very useful. SM (00:27:17): How do you respond when you hear critics of that era, that timeframe say that most of the problems we have in America today go directly back to that period when, again, the increasing in the divorce rate, the drug culture, the no respect for authority, a sense of irresponsibility on the critics part? CK (00:27:43): I think all of our current problems can date from really primarily from the Reagan era, whose main philosophical message was be as greedy as you want to be and do not feel that you have to do anything for people who are less fortunate then you are and that that is far more important to our current catastrophic situation than any of the things that you just mentioned. SM (00:28:10): Yeah, that gets me into it because you remember when we spoke the last time we broke down the decades, on how the decades kind of influenced the boomers. And why do not we talk about the (19)80s? When you talk about the (19)80s, you really think of Ronald Reagan. And of course toward the end you think of George Bush who became president, but Iran Contra, those kinds of things. Of course, the economy was not very good. Jobs or lack of jobs in the early (19)80s, of course, the assassination attempt. What does the (19)80s mean to the boomers who had just been through the (19)60s and the (19)70s? CK (00:28:57): Well, the (19)80s is the decade that validates and encourages their pre-occupation with materialism. I think it is the absolute end of... For many people it kills off whatever remnants or the idealism of the (19)60s and the idea that you really should devote part of your life to improving the lives of people less fortunate than yourself. SM (00:29:36): When you think, of course, boomers being born between (19)46 and (19)64, when you think about the end of World War II, certainly the GI Bill, the baby boom started right around that timeframe. The greatest number of babies were born in 1957. Saw that in a statistic. But what was it about the late forties and (19)50s- [inaudible]. But what was it about the late (19)40s and (19)50s, what was it like at that time to be a young child growing up in that period? CK (00:30:13): Well, I think the most important thing was the explosion in the middle class, and the huge number of people who did not have to worry about providing the basic necessities of life, the huge number of people who were relatively prosperous, a larger proportion of the pot probably than at any other time up till that time. And that in turn, by the time the Boomers... Having grown up with this comparative lack of financial anxiety, if you were lucky enough to be part of that middle class, I think that it is the reason that 1968 to about 1971 were the years when college students spent the least amount of time worrying about how they were going to make a living for the rest of their lives and the largest amount of time thinking about how they could recreate the world and themselves. I think that amount of affluence was very liberating. SM (00:31:30): Well, I wrote down just off the top of my head some things. When you think of the (19)50s, this is just good old Steve McKiernan, and I would like your response to see if there is something missing here, I think of a GI Bill, I think Levittown, I think of Joe McCarthy and the Red Scare. Of course, you think of President Truman and Eisenhower, the nuclear threat, black and white TV. Parents giving everything to their kids. Church attendance seemed to be up. Parents were- CK (00:32:01): In the (19)50s was church attendance... Is that true? Is church attendants up in the (19)50s? I would be doubtful about that one. SM (00:32:06): Church attendance, well, some of them, things I have been reading was at least larger than it was in the (19)60s. CK (00:32:12): Than in the (19)60s, yeah. But I think the decline... I am guessing here, I do not know the numbers, but I would think the go decline begins after World War II and just accelerates in the (19)60s. SM (00:32:27): Is that because of their parents failed in World War ii or the nuclear threat and everything? CK (00:32:36): I think, well, certainly for my own parents, people of my own parents' intellectual class, I think that the creation or the invention of the atomic bomb contributed to a decline in the belief of an almighty God. SM (00:32:52): The other things were that the parents were proud that they defeated Germany and Japan- CK (00:33:01): Well, we talked about that. Yeah. I mean, I think that people of our age grew up as the beneficiaries of this kind of huge surge of confidence and self-esteem that our parents had, having participated in the greatest and most black and white triumph of good over evil over the last 100 years, for sure. I mean, the fact that the world was confronted with this absolute pure evil of Adolf Hitler and belatedly and that this gigantic cause overcame it, but at least it did come out the right way, I think that was extremely important. SM (00:33:47): And of course, the other things would be the civil rights movement was happening at that time with the Montgomery Bus Boycott and Little Rock Nine, and a lot of the things were happening there. The Beats were around, and Jackie Robinson was in baseball, and so it is really good things. CK (00:34:05): The Black people were giving a moral sample to the rest of the country. SM (00:34:14): Of course, I got a long list here, but the (19)60s, you could talk for five hours on the (19)60s. But what was it about the (19)60s that influenced the Boomer generation? CK (00:34:26): Everything. Drugs, the greatest probably access to the sex of any generation up to that time, at least in the United States. The idealism of the civil rights movement, the example of Martin Luther King. And the idealism of the anti-war movement, surely. SM (00:34:59): Yeah, and of course then we- CK (00:35:02): All the... I mean, it is just very hard to describe how the music and the politics and the culture and the drugs all did work together, but they did all work together very much to give us for a brief shining moment- SM (00:35:22): Still there? CK (00:35:23): Hold on. You there? Sorry, the phone fell. SM (00:35:27): Yep, that is okay. CK (00:35:29): ...gave us very much a sense of ourselves as a generation apart, a generation that was new and different and in a way that I think more so than many other generations have had. SM (00:35:43): Well, you have written this great book, 1968, which I know is used in a couple universities here in this region. West Chester does not use it, I do not know why, but- CK (00:35:53): Well, you would better do something about that. SM (00:35:55): Well, I have got to talk to Dr. Kodosky because I know it is used at Villanova and I know it is used at other schools, so I have got to find out, he is- CK (00:36:06): At Duke, I know it is used at Duke. SM (00:36:06): Yeah. Well, it is a great book. And you wrote on a year that will forever be imprinted in the minds of every single Boomer, whether they were an activist or not. The question I am trying to ask is, were we close to a second civil war in 1968 in terms of all the terrible divisions that were happening? It came out, of course, at the convention, we had the assassinations. America really started getting divided really over the war with Tet experience early in the year. Of course, the riots in the cities, the burnings. Just were we close to a second civil war? CK (00:36:53): I am not sure we were closer to a second civil war, but we were closer to a sense of the world falling apart where all of the established order being in jeopardy, at least from April through November, which, I mean, the peak would really begin with the riots everywhere after Martin Luther King was killed. I would think it was that. Apart from the blunt, gigantic shock of the various assassinations, I think that surely the scariest time was that period immediately after Martin Luther King was killed when Washington looked like a scarier place than Saigon was, [inaudible] from all over the place and machine guns mounted on the parapet in front of the Capitol and the White House worrying whether they were literally going to run out of enough federal troops to pacify all the riots that were going on all over the country. And then there was that, and then I think to the part of the country which had escaped those riots, which was not very much except for the rural part, I think the scene of the disarray on the streets of Chicago was extremely unsettling thing to see, something to watch and to see not only poorer Black people or poorer black people revolting, but also middle-class white men. It just seemed like everything was a little bit kind of cruel. But I think certainly those images from the street of Chicago were as helpful that Richard Nixon getting elected as anything else that happened that year. SM (00:38:57): I think in your book, you say some three really important points that I did not know. First one, I knew about the National Student Association and because I knew people that were part of that group, but I did not know it had really started way back and in (19)47. And so when we talk about the anti-war movement and students involved in protests and caring about social concerns, well, the National Student Association had been involved and they cared about concerns kind of all the way through, did not they, from its outset? And you talk about how the CIA infiltrated it right before Loewenstein became, I guess, the president of it or-or after. But how important was that organization in the (19)50s? CK (00:39:43): Well, I think it was important to an idealistic vanguard, but I do not think it was important in a mass way. I do not think must people more all that aware of it. SM (00:39:55): You mentioned you made a point that a lot of the people that went down South maybe did Freedom Summer, who went down to voter registration, got involved in some of the non-violent protests, they were students from that period and they ended up many of them becoming the leaders of the anti-war movement. CK (00:40:12): Yeah, yeah. Well, certainly there was a great overlap, the leaders of this civil rights movement and the first leaders of the anti-war movement, yeah. SM (00:40:27): Could you also talk about the irony that the man who became, who you volunteered for in 1968 was the only man really political figure that challenged Joe McCarthy? CK (00:40:41): Right-right. Right, yes. Well, so that he did, he had two sterling moments of courage in his career: debating Joe McCarthy on the radio, and challenging Lyndon Johnson for re-nomination when every other Democratic senator was too scared to do so. SM (00:41:01): Now, were you able to hear that debate? Do you- CK (00:41:05): No, I do not know if it exists on tape, but I do not think I ever found it. No. SM (00:41:11): Was there ever a transcript of it? CK (00:41:14): I do not remember. I do not think I ever saw one. I think the closest I came was reading contemporary news stories about it. SM (00:41:26): Boy, he must have been fearless because that McCarthy, the other McCarthy, you went against him, you were in trouble. CK (00:41:33): Yeah. Although I did would be important to know, and I do not know whether that debate was before or after Ed Murrow had taken him on. Because that certainly I would say from the time that Ed Murrow does his first show attacking McCarthy, that is the beginning of the decline of his influence. SM (00:41:53): Could you also talk about the fact that maybe we would have had more people with a white Caucasian background who may have been against the war or spoke up sooner on civil rights issues, but they admired the African American community for their stand on what was happening in the South? They were kind of role models to many of the white people who wanted to speak up and did not out of fear. CK (00:42:23): I am not quite sure what you are saying. SM (00:42:25): You mentioned in your book that a lot of white people who may have spoken up earlier about the injustices toward African Americans in America, but were afraid to do so because of McCarthy. CK (00:42:40): Oh, because of Joe McCarthy. SM (00:42:41): Yeah, Joe McCarthy, and the fact that you know it... And of course- CK (00:42:47): I do not think there is any single individual who had a more negative impact in every way than Joe McCarthy did in the 1950s. I mean, in terms of making people unnecessarily fearful, anybody who had ever had the remotest connection to a Left-wing organization in the 1930s, regardless of whether they still had any of those views or not. I mean, he was a massively destructive figure. SM (00:43:15): There is a brand-new book out, I think by M. Stanton Evans saying that McCarthy got a raw deal. I do not know if you have seen that book. CK (00:43:23): I have not, but I do not need to read it to know that he is full of shit. SM (00:43:29): Charles, let me change my tape here. All right. I guess we are heading into the (19)70s here. What was it about the (19)70s that... And again, part of the (19)60s really goes to about 1973, but what was it about the (19)70s that was so different than the (19)60s in terms of its impact on Boomers? CK (00:43:55): Well, the (19)70s is really the era in which what had been the (19)60s in places like New York and Los Angeles and all the big cities, it is really when that sort of ethos, I think spreads out throughout the country into the smaller places and the more rural places. And everybody has long hair by 1973, whereas only people in big cities probably had long hair in 1968. But it is also the period where, well, I think for the main activists in the (19)60s, the fact of Richard Nixon's election was kind of a symbol of the fundamental failure of the movement to bring about real change, at least in the government. I think it was a very depressing event for people who were in the streets in (19)60s, the fact that all of that activism in some sense culminated in... I had an exchange with... When I published 1968, Arthur Crim, who was another dear friend of my father's and was a big fundraiser for Lyndon Johnson at a ranch named for Lyndon Johnson, he read the book and obviously lauded, celebratory tone but he said, "But God, did not we pay this huge price in the reaction the country went through to all that disruption." And obviously we did pay a huge price because it had been so upsetting to so many people that it in some sense enabled the rise of the Conservative movement for the next 40 years. So, there is that. But we have never... Even though, well, you can argue with the Supreme Court we have gone certainly backwards somewhat on school desegregation. But there has never been an attempt really, except [inaudible], to paint Black people is inferior to white people, and there is nobody who questions any, the capacity of women to be competent chief executive officers of major corporations. And I cannot say it often enough that the transformation of the way gay people are treated and what they are allowed to become, what professions they are allowed to be in openly, could not be more dramatic. I do not know if you saw what I wrote most recently about the New York Times with Ted Olson and David Boies were at the New York Times last week talking about gay marriage? SM (00:47:03): No, I did not see that. CK (00:47:04): And in the audience were Arthur Sulzberger Jr., who was the publisher of the paper, and Andrew Rosenthal, who was the editorial page editor who's probably written more pro-equal rights editorials about gay people than anybody else. And 30 years ago, their fathers ran the paper, Punch Sulzberger and Abe Rosenthal, and both of them were extremely homophobic, and every gay employee of the newspaper assumed that their career depended on keeping their sexual orientation a secret. And basically, this current publisher single-handedly, really, transformed it from one of the most homophobic institutions in the world to one of the most gay-friendly institutions in the world. SM (00:47:56): That is in the... Was that in... I will look it up. CK (00:47:59): That was in the blog I posted last week. SM (00:48:03): Okay. I will have to check that out. Was that the one, the Columbia Journalism blog? CK (00:48:08): No, it is now hosted by the Hillman Foundation. SM (00:48:10): Oh, okay. Yeah, that is where I saw some of yours, too. Okay. CK (00:48:13): Yeah. It was originally hosted by Radar Magazine when there was a Radar Magazine, and then I moved to the Columbia Journalism Review, and then I moved to the Hillman Foundation when they offered me more money than the Columbia Journalism Review. SM (00:48:26): A couple of things within the (19)70s that stand out. Of course, Kent State and Jackson State, Watergate, Nixon resigning and Ford becoming president, the Pentagon Papers. And the only other thing kind of disco music, the music changes drastically. Your thoughts on any of those events? And then oftentimes, and I would like your thoughts on this, when we talk about the sexual revolution, we talk about more of the (19)70s and the (19)60s sometimes. And the critics of the (19)70s will say that because of the sexual revolution, there was a direct link to the AIDS crisis of the (19)80s. And of course, when you think about the (19)80s, again, you have got to think of Reagan. I interviewed Mark Thompson a couple weeks ago, and Mark Thompson almost, he actually started crying on the phone. That is the only time he did it, he said, when he starts thinking of Ronald Reagan. CK (00:49:20): Who is Mark Thompson? SM (00:49:21): He wrote Advocate Days. He is Malcolm Boyd's lifelong partner, and he was one of the leaders of the Advocate for many years. He said when he talks about Ronald Reagan and about how Ronald Reagan treated gay and lesbians in America, as if they did not even exist, he gets real emotional. But- CK (00:49:48): You know what he said about his son though, Ronald Junior, when he first took the office? He said, "He is all man, we have made sure." SM (00:49:57): Oh, wow. CK (00:49:59): I have always wanted to know what the test had been. SM (00:50:02): Yeah. His son does not seem to be all that bad. I think his son is a little liberal, is not he or something? CK (00:50:07): His son is very liberal, yeah. SM (00:50:08): He has got his own radio show, I think, out in the West someplace. Your thoughts on those major events of the (19)70s, Kent State, and their impact and either something- CK (00:50:18): Well, there was still a huge... I mean, the (19)70s is when I witnessed all this. The second biggest disruption of Columbia University was in 1972 when there was, again, buildings occupied, and anti-war protests and police came on the campus, and it was really kind of a mini version of what had happened in 1968, and it was a period... There was still a period when there was a lot of middle-class protests in the streets going against the war, which was after all, dragging on and on thanks to Henry Kissinger. But there was also the music was less interesting, except for Stevie Wonder and a couple of other people. But the amount of diversity, which was really the hallmark in the music of the (19)60s, was that someone with almost any conceivable musical style had a shot at being a star. Whereas my mid (19)70s I would say, disco was the main form of a popular musical entertainment in America. And certainly there is a huge amount of sexual promiscuity in the 1970s, that is undeniable. I mean, it is the really the time in our time when you felt like the biggest danger, physical danger, to you of being promiscuous was getting something which could have gotten rid of with a couple of shots of antibiotics. So, there would never be quite that same libertine spirit again because of the AIDS virus. SM (00:52:05): Yeah. When you think of all the movements that really evolved from the civil rights movement and used the civil rights as their role model... I have been asking this question to a lot of my guests, too. There seem to be a lot of unity within these movements. That is, the women's movement would come out strong, they would be at any gay lesbian protest and vice versa. CK (00:52:30): Well, no, not at all. On the contrary, the women's movement, especially at the beginning, Betty Friedan was obsessed with not letting lesbians take over the women's movement. That was a big leitmotif. SM (00:52:41): What year was that though? CK (00:52:44): Oh, as late as 1968 or so. If you really want the right women's movement person, you should interview Susan Brownmiller, who wrote Against Our Will, which was the groundbreaking book which changed the law on rape. Because up until then in most states, the victim could barely testify in her own trial. It was a very important book. Then she did a big look about the women's movement about 10 years ago. But she would be the person to get the blow-by-blow on that. I can give you her email, too. SM (00:53:17): Yeah, that would be good. CK (00:53:17): Three emails I owe you: Susan, [inaudible], and Peter Goldman. SM (00:53:21): Yeah, and Susan, I believe I could tried to contact her, but it was her book company, and something Susan Brownmiller books or something. CK (00:53:30): She is in the phone book on Jane Street in Manhattan. SM (00:53:33): Okay. You corrected me on that, but what I am getting at is that the (19)60s seemed to be a period when movements evolved for individual rights for so many different groups, whether it be the Native American group and the American Indian Movement, which was in its heyday from (19)69 to (19)73. Then obviously, you have got Stonewall, which was a historic event for gay and lesbians. You have got the Chicano movement. I just spoke to Dr. Franklin last week about that group out in San Francisco. And certainly, the environmental movement in 1970. What are your thoughts on all these movements? Are you pleased with the direction they have gone as years have progressed? Are they still strong or do you think they have become so singular in their... they do not work with other groups? CK (00:54:32): Well, I certainly think that the Conservatives are much better at uniting their movement than the Left has been, with the exception of the election of Barack Obama. But generally speaking, I would say there has not been. Of course, part of the problem is the complete withering of the labor union movement in America, which was extremely important as a source of self-financed progressivism, and it has gotten so much smaller than it was in the heyday. Your question is really too broad for me to answer, is what do I think of all these movements? I mean, that is just too... I cannot get a handle on that. SM (00:55:17): Yeah. I think what I am getting at is, do they work with other groups or are they just concentrate on their own issues and become isolated? CK (00:55:27): There is some [inaudible] but not as much as I would like there to be, probably. SM (00:55:32): How about Boomers that say they feel they were the most unique generation in the history of the United States because they were going to change the world in every way? They were going to end Racism, sexism, homophobia. That was an attitude that a lot of the Boomers had back in the (19)60s, and some still have it. CK (00:55:51): Well, I mean, there was more progress made for women and gays and Blacks when we were young than at any other period in America since at least the Emancipation Proclamation, I would say so. I mean, to say we were the most unique generation? Well, that is not a statement that I would want to defend. But we were, briefly, one of the most successfully activists generations, is the way I would put it. SM (00:56:31): You will remember this question, and I have the whole issue of healing. Do you feel the Boomers are still having a problem with healing from the extreme divisions that tore them apart when they were young, divisions between Black and white, and obviously those who supported the war and those who did not, and the troops as well? Do you think the generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Or is there truth to the statement time heals all wounds? Do you think that the Boomers are a generation- CK (00:57:00): Wounds all heals, is the other way to put it. SM (00:57:02): Yeah. Do you think- CK (00:57:06): I do not know the answer to that question, that is another one of those. But I mean, I think there will always be fundamental disagreements. I would say one of the fundamental disagreements now is between the people who realized that the war was a pointless and wasteful exercise, which could not have been won under any circumstances, and the counter movement, which says if only we would just hung in there a little longer, we could have defeated the Viet Cong, which I think is completely ridiculous. But I do not know. The rest of the questions, I do not think I really want to answer. SM (00:57:47): I know that when we took our students to meet Ed Muskie, he answered it in this way, "We have not healed since the Civil War." That is- CK (00:57:55): Yeah. You told me that. Yeah. SM (00:57:57): Yeah, and he did not even comment on 1968, which is what I was- CK (00:58:01): He is probably still too traumatized by 1968 to comment on that. SM (00:58:05): Yeah, you may be right. The other question is dealing with the issue of trust. One of the qualities that the Boomers have always been looked upon as having is this business of not trusting anybody in positions of responsibility and whether they pass that on to their children or their grandchildren. But would you say that this generation, more than any other, was just not a very trusting generation because of all the leaders that lied to them and assassinations and all the things, that dreams- CK (00:58:40): [inaudible] different point of view towards figures of authority than the generation that proceeded us, certainly, I would say that. And a lot of that had to do specifically with Lyndon Johnson, who after all, did run on an anti- war platform in 1964 and then proceeded to escalate the war in ways that I thought only Barry Goldwater could have done. SM (00:59:12): I would like your comments, you had mentioned that Walter Cronkite was so unique amongst all the journalists from that period when Boomers were young or even into their twenties watching television in thirties and forties. What do you remember about the media from the (19)50s and (19)60s and (19)70s that stands out, beyond just Cronkite? I want to mention these names here because these are names that I remember as being kind of important. These are the people we watched when there were only three channels. Huntley-Brinkley, John Cameron Swayze, Dave Garaway, Frank Reynolds, Douglas Edwards, Don McNeill and the Breakfast Club, Arthur Godfrey, Frank McGee, Hugh Downs, Dan Rather- Arthur Godfrey, Frank McGee, Hugh Downs, Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Eric Sevareid, Howard K. Smith, and I guess Nancy Dickerson was the first female that I think was on TV all the time, along with Sander Vanocur. Were they kind of special? Were they different than the ones we see today? CK (01:00:24): Well, I mean, Huntley-Brinkley are the inventors, really, of the modern evening news broadcast, as we know it. Although, twice as long as it was when they started, still basically the format, they were the first ones who made it a kind of mass cultural phenomenon. The main difference was that the big newspapers and the big networks really did have a monopoly on the distribution of information, which is unimaginable in the internet age, but probably, in the coverage of black people by southern newspapers in that era, with some honorable exceptions like the Atlantic Constitution, was largely awful, and the coverage of gay people was uniformly awful by all publications everywhere, pretty much without exception, in the 1950s and the early 1960s. On the other hand, we did not have cable news, and I am convinced that cable news has done more to denigrate or to degrade the national conversation than anything else in the history of the modern mass media because they do so much to focus on the trivial and things that are not important, and they also put on the air all kinds of people who are supposed experts who never would have had any public outlet back in the day when there were only three networks. So I do not know if that [inaudible] or not. SM (01:02:22): Well, I wish I had had a chance to totally read your book, Gay Metropolis, but after talking to Mark Thompson for almost two hours a couple weeks ago about The Advocate and everything, we talked a lot about the AIDS crisis and the loss of life within the gay community. He mentioned that he went to as many as a hundred funerals of friends, and the fact that when you talk about gay and lesbian boomers, so many of them have passed on, some of the most talented ones. He talked a little bit about Paul Monette, the great writer, and some of his friends that were at The Advocate as well. Could you explain in your own words what it was like to be a gay person, say in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, and where we are today, just briefly? CK (01:03:25): Well, my knowledge of the (19)50s is obviously from people older than myself. To be gay in the 1950s was to be invisible or was to make the large proportion of your energy to making sure that your sexuality was invisible to everybody else. It was a time when you never saw any positive depiction of gay people anywhere in the public media, and the only openly gay people in the world practically were Ginsburg, James Baldwin, and Gore Vidal, sort of, kind of, but not exactly. Things are not all that different in the (19)60s, we have accepted, until the Stonewall Riot in 1969, and then you have immediately, this kind of organizational energy that you had never had before. The (19)70s is the great flowering of open gay life, and huge matter of fact, obviously, but it is still a time when in the (19)70s there were no openly gay reporters at any major newspapers, anywhere. There were two gay reporters that I know of at the Washington Post in the (19)70s, Roy Aarons, and I am going to forget the name of the other one again, who ran into each other in a gay bar, and they were both so embarrassed, even though they were both gay, they were both so embarrassed to see each other in a gay bar, that instead of saying hello to each other, they ran in the opposite direction, never talked about it again. In 1980, there was a total of two openly gay reporters in San Francisco and New York City, Randy Schultz in San Francisco, and a guy named Joe Nicholson who was at the New York Post. Well, what I say in the Gay Metropolis, is really that the AIDS crisis was, well, first of all, you have to say, as you were saying before, the AIDS crisis wiped out half of my generation of urban gay men. I think the most likely number is 50 percent, and I think that had a really devastating effect on the culture. I think that is really an important reason, why the culture in the (19)90s was relatively arid and vapid. So many of the most creative people, I mean, were dead. But age is the best and the worst thing that happens to us; the worst for that reason, because half of us were wiped out, and the best because it finally stimulated us to do something like the kind of mass organization that we should have done 10 years earlier, and it resulted in everybody, millions of people, being forced out of the closet, and America realizing that people like Roy Cohn, and Brock Hudson, and so many others were in fact gay, which is something most people did not realize before the AIDS epidemic. So, it created all this organizational energy and it made it clear to people for the first time, just how many people really were gay. SM (01:07:09): Has the AIDS quilt done to the gay and lesbian population and their families what the Vietnam Memorial has done to veterans? CK (01:07:20): I think it certainly did at the beginning. It certainly did in its heyday. I mean, I can remember very vividly, I cannot give you the year, it might be (19)88, I am not sure, but the first year that it was displayed in Washington during one of the gay marches on Washington, it was an unbelievably traumatic event for many of us. I mean, you literally walked around the quilt and discovered that the people that you did not know were dead were dead for the first time, but because it does not have a permanent display anywhere, I do not think you can say that it has quite the same effect as the Vietnam Memorial, just because it is not somewhere to be seen at any time. SM (01:08:09): I know I have been trying to get an interview with Cleve Jones. It is kind of hard. CK (01:08:14): What has happened? What happened? SM (01:08:16): Well, I contacted his assistant, but I think he let his assistant go. I got to get back to him again, because there is different people. I think they might have interns in there, wherever he works, and so they are not very good at getting word to him, so I got to get to him directly. You mentioned, I want to also know your thoughts on what happened in 1978 in San Francisco, because here it is, to some people who may not live in the Bay Area, it is not big to them, but certainly the assassination of George Moscone and Harvey Milk were major events. It is almost like, they are not like Dr. King, and Bobby Kennedy, and John Kennedy, but here we are again, somebody murdered, who was so visible, who was fighting for somebody's rights and the answer, even whether this guy was on Twinkies or whatever, they ended up dead. Your thoughts on that particular day in San Francisco in November? I lived out in the West Coast. I know the impact it had on that city, and I know the impact it had on the state is sad. Just your thoughts on 1978 and what happened in San Francisco with the Harvey Milk and George Moscone? CK (01:09:40): It was a terrifying event, a devastating event, I mean, you could see it as an extreme reaction by one deranged individual to all the progress that gay people had made up to that point. Harvey Milk was extremely important, as the recent movie captured so well. He was an extremely important, early, charismatic gay leader in a period where we had had very, very few, if any, charismatic gay leaders. So it was both a tremendous shock, tremendously depressing, and on an individual basis, it was just a tremendous loss for the movement, just to lose somebody who had been so effective in that way. SM (01:10:39): You mentioned that movie, and that leads me in back to something you mentioned much earlier about the counterculture of the (19)60s and (19)70s and how important the music was, certainly the art was, and the movies. In your view again, or for the first time, I know you mentioned this in our interview before, what were the movies that you felt really explained the culture of the (19)60s? That really talked about the (19)60s? CK (01:11:07): Explained or captured? SM (01:11:09): Yeah, I would say captured the (19)60s and the (19)70s. CK (01:11:17): Medium pool; have you ever seen Medium Pool? SM (01:11:18): Yes, I have. CK (01:11:21): Bonnie and Clyde, in a funny way, has a real 60s sensibility, and I cannot exactly explain why, but partly because it is a very violent movie, and partly because that was a very violent era, so I think it has something to do with that. Ell, my favorite movie in the world is A Thousand Clowns with Jason Robards, which is really the first celebration of someone who is questioning authority, so it is, in a way, in it is way, it is kind of the first movie about the (19)60s, in New York City at least. I do not know. I mean, movies were very important in the (19)60s, but not so much because they captured the era, because I think most of the important movies of that era were mostly set in other time periods. SM (01:12:25): Where would you place the Vietnam films Apocalypse Now, Deer Hunter, Taxi Driver? CK (01:12:35): Deer Hunter, I thought it was a big [inaudible]; Apocalypse. Now, I thought it was kind of a mess; Taxi, I did not see until this year on an airplane; Platoon is very important, but that is much later, right? SM (01:12:52): Yes. CK (01:12:52): Is that the (19)80s or something? SM (01:12:52): Tom Cruise, yes. CK (01:12:54): Coming Home, that is a very important movie. That is about, I think late (19)70s, is not it? SM (01:13:01): Yes. CK (01:13:01): With Jane Fonda and John Voight? SM (01:13:10): Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yep. Then the other ones are, The Graduate. CK (01:13:11): Well, The Graduate is the key movie, in terms of, I mean, no other movie ever captured the division [inaudible] generation. SM (01:13:26): Another one in that period was The Sterile Cuckoo. I do not know if you saw that with Liza Minelli. CK (01:13:31): Yeah, correct. SM (01:13:32): Of course, she followed it up with Cabaret, which was... CK (01:13:34): Well, that is the (19)70s. I mean, I write about that in the Gay Metropolis, that really, although it is set in the 1930s Germany because of the bisexual theme of it, and also the kind of sense of forces beyond your control taking over. That was, I mean, I really felt when Cabaret came out was when I was in my twenties, that this was as much a portrait of the life I was leading in Manhattan, in terms of social interactions, as it was a portrait of 1930s Berlin. SM (01:14:18): Another one is Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice, which was about the sexual revolution of the time. CK (01:14:24): Yeah, I saw it and I do not really have enough to recollect. SM (01:14:29): Then there were the black films like Shaft and all those other, they were fairly big as well. CK (01:14:37): Yeah, well, they were mostly about making money. SM (01:14:40): Now, I mentioned this, I keep saying it, I am going to cut this out of the editing, but the three slogans that I felt really defined the period were Malcolm X's "By any means necessary"; Bobby Kennedy, when he talked a Henry David Thoreau quote, "Some men see things as they are and why, I see things that never were and ask why not," which is kind of symbolic of all the activists of the era fighting for different causes; and then of course you had the Peter Max poster, but not too many people remember seeing these words, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful," symbolic of the hippie kind of mentality. Your thoughts on.... CK (01:15:24): You have left out, "black is beautiful and gay is good." SM (01:15:27): Well see, I am asking yours. I am asking what quote you would... CK (01:15:32): "Black is beautiful," which I believe is Stokely Carmichael's creation, and "gay is good," which was Frank Kameny's creation in direct response to "black is beautiful." He saw Stokely Carmichael say that on TV, and he said to himself, we need something like that for the gay movement, and there upon invented "gay is good." SM (01:15:51): Well, David Michener said something about the, you probably know him? CK (01:15:56): I do not really know him. no. SM (01:15:57): Yeah, well, he said something about the gay community because he says, I have been working for years trying to get them to include music in their protests or music linked to their causes, and he says it has been a fruitless battle. He said there was no music, and all the other movements had music, so that was just a... CK (01:16:20): [inaudible] music was the disco music. SM (01:16:22): Right, you may be right. I know the Bee Gees came to be well known at that particular time. Again, the other thing is the pictures that really stand out in your mind, because pictures say more than a thousand words. The pictures that you feel define the (19)60s and the (19)70s, or when Boomers were young? CK (01:16:42): Which pictures we... SM (01:16:44): We are talking about photography. CK (01:16:47): Yeah, well, the Vietnamese girl, and the picture of the girl at Kent State, and the picture of the three athletes at the Olympics in 1968, and certainly at the time, although I do not think it has the resonance down through the years, but the gigantic picture of the funeral procession for Martin Luther King on the front page of the New York Times the day that he was buried. SM (01:17:26): I have got only two more questions. One of them is, when you talk about the (19)60s and look at that period, you saw the Civil Rights Movement and you saw that Stokely Carmichael challenging Dr. King saying, your time has passed. Byard Rustin, another person who was well known for being a gay person, right here from Westchester, in this debate with Malcolm X, where he also told Rustin that your time has passed because Black Power is here now, and non-violent protests is a thing of the past. What I am getting at here is, whether it be the Black Panthers, or Black Power Weathermen taking over for Students for Democratic Society, the American Indian Movement at Wounded Knee, what sent them down was the violence there, and even I was talking to someone yesterday about the environmental movement and some of the violence that has really hurt their cause. Even in San Francisco, the area where I lived in 1978, the violence that took place after Harvey Milk, violence seems to hurt every cause. Just your thoughts on the whole concept of fighting for certain issues, and beliefs, and justice, and rights, and then this violent segment comes in, by any means necessary, and it seems to really hurt a cause; your thoughts on that? CK (01:19:00): Well, I guess there is something to the idea that some of the people who remained active in these causes the longest probably had a frustration over the lack of progress, or whatever specific thing they were interested in, did turn to violence and in no case was this the decision which actually contributed to any real social progress. SM (01:19:30): Who are your mentors and role models that you look up to today, whether historic or people that you have known in your life? CK (01:19:47): Frank Cleins, of the New York Times, because he was the most honest and the most... Cleins, c-l-i-n-e-s, the most honest and the most elegant journalist I know. George Orwell still, even though he is dead, he certainly is saying, George Orwell reminds me every day of the obligations of a writer to be fearless and accurate, as accurate as you can be. Everybody says Nelson Mandela, but I will say Nelson Mandela too. I mean, he is the extraordinary, modern figure of our time, modern political figure of our times, for sure. SM (01:20:37): What do you think the history books will say after all the boomers have passed on? What will be their legacy, when people write about them who were not alive, when they were alive? CK (01:20:53): I suspect what they will write about the most is the music, because that will be the part that they can actually experience in almost the same way that we did. I mean, that is the big difference between the 20th century and all the centuries before it, is that all of the people in exceeding generations are all going to be able to experience all the popular music that was around. Whereas before the phonograph, only a tiny proportion of the popular music of any era survived into the next one. Also, I think the music was the most was lasting artistic thing that we created in that time. So I would say it will be the music and it will be the perception that this was the generation which exploded centuries of prejudice against people who were not white, male, or straight. SM (01:22:03): The one slogan that came out in your book, and I have heard it before, please define what you mean by this; I know what it means, but for people that are reading it, "just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not after you." CK (01:22:21): Well, we discovered as decades went on, that there had been an awful lot of surveillance by the FBI, and by the CIA, [inaudible] by the CIA being completely illegal at the time. It means that paranoia was often grounded in reality, even then when you did not know it for a fact at the time. SM (01:22:48): COINTELPRO was pretty scary. It was almost like McCarthy all over again. CK (01:22:52): Yeah, on a broader scale, I think. SM (01:22:55): Yeah, lives were ruined there too. Charles, is there any question I did not ask that you thought I was going to this time? CK (01:23:04): I do not think so. SM (01:23:06): All right, well, that is it. I got it. That is exactly an hour and a half. CK (01:23:09): Okay. SM (01:23:17): John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. CK (01:23:24): Well, John Kennedy was the first great love affair of my life, and I was a big Kennedy supporter at the age of 10, and we had a debate in fifth grade in Mrs. Green's class, and I debated Steve Lane, who took the Nixon position, and I had the Democratic National Committee Handbook, which had a whole series of questions for the Republicans, which seemed to be completely unanswerable at the time. I think it is important to remember that at this point in his presidency, or certainly two years into his presidency, that people did not feel markedly different about him than Obama's supporters feel about Obama. That he was seen as very ineffective; he had had this disaster of the Bay of Pigs, he had had one big success in the missile crisis, but the Civil Rights legislation was stalled, and nobody quite saw how it was ever going to get passed, and there was a, I think, big perception that this was a great speaker and a pretty boy, and not someone who could get a lot done. I think we will never know, but the odds are that my brother David is correct in believing that he would have resisted the quagmire that Lyndon Johnson took us into because he had the balls to stand up to his own advisors, and Lyndon Johnson did not have the balls to stand up to the Kennedy advisors who he inherited. I think in particular that there is a pretty good chance that Dean Russ would have only lasted one term, and that alone would have made a huge difference. I shook Bobby Kennedy's hand once. I never shook Jack's; I saw Jack and the inaugural... SM (01:25:46): Well, I shook his. CK (01:25:47): Yeah? SM (01:25:48): Yeah, that is on the bottom of my letter; at Hyde Park. CK (01:25:52): Oh, yes, I remember. SM (01:25:53): Yeah, I was 11? I do not know. CK (01:26:00): Anyway, I met Bobby, who came to my father's swearing in when he became Ambassador to Senegal. Then he was supposed to come visit us in Senegal, and I spent a week experimenting in front of the mirror trying to get my hair flip the way his did, and then his plans changed and he never came to visit us in Senegal. In 1968, I was exactly like Murray Kempton and many, many others, and I hated Bobby Kennedy because I was a hundred percent for Gene McCarthy... SM (01:26:31): That was my next guy, McCarthy. CK (01:26:33): And Bobby was the coward who would come down from the hills to shoot the wounded, as Murray Kempton put it, after McCarthy almost wins in New Hampshire, and he comes in to steal all the fire, and then when he was shot, it was the end of everything. It was the most horrible [inaudible] of all. Especially because of the cumulative effect of it, you know? SM (01:27:05): Yeah, Eugene McCarthy, because he was the first person I interviewed. CK (01:27:11): Oh, good. I am glad you got him. SM (01:27:12): I got him, and we got along real well. I am Irish, he is Irish. I spent two and a half hours, and I got a long interview with him, but I had met him twice before, but he would not answer two questions. He said, when I asked him about Bobby Kennedy, he said, read the book, just read my book. Got a little emotional, but he said, just read the book. I did not ever have the guts to ask him a question. I would have asked it to him now, why did not you continue? Because I still... CK (01:27:48): He had a breakdown. He had a complete break. He never recovered. He, more than anybody else except Ethel, never recovered from Bobby Kennedy's assassination. That was it. He was never, he never functioned after that. That was it. He blamed himself. I am convinced he blamed himself as everybody kind of blamed themselves for contributing, and it was irrational, of course, but we all felt that we had contributed to this climate of hatred and viciousness, and especially hatred of Bobby. He had been as nasty and vicious to Bobby, in print, and in public, as anybody else was in 1968. But, he is the crucial figure of the year because he is the only person with the balls to run for President against Lyndon Johnson, even though I do not think he had the slightest interest. I mean, he pretty much admitted when I interviewed him that he never really intended, he never intended to be President. What his goal, his ambition, his intention, was to force Lyndon Johnson to change his position on the war, but certainly not to force Johnson out of office. SM (01:29:03): How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, because they were the yippies. CK (01:29:10): Yeah, I never took either of them very seriously at the time. They were both too radical and too theatrical for my taste. I was much more of a, I was not very radical, except that I was gay, but that did not really make me radical politically. I was a real old-fashioned Democratic Liberal; Gene McCarthy liberal. Gene McCarthy was also pretty radical in what he said about the CIA and what he said about America being the arms merchants of the world. SM (01:29:52): Right. CK (01:29:52): He said a lot of things that no modern progressive candidate would say. SM (01:29:59): I just found him to be brilliant. CK (01:30:01): Oh, he was brilliant. He was brilliant, but he was not... SM (01:30:03): Wanted to be brilliant. CK (01:30:03): Oh, he was brilliant was brilliant, but he was not a serious person. He was brilliant, but he was unbelievably, and he fails us terribly from June to August of 1968 in ways which are... I mean, from June through the rest of the year, he is just a complete catastrophe. A, because he never reaches out to Bobby's people B, because he does not function as a candidate from June until August and C, because he does everything he can really to undermine Hubert. He hates Hubert and- SM (01:30:41): Yeah. Well, Hubert Humphrey and Spiro Agnew were the next two, because Spiro was the hatchet man, he was going all over the college campuses with all this highfalutin language. Your thoughts on... CK (01:30:56): Hubert is the tragic figure. I think it would have been a different world if he had been elected in 1968, but he really was genuinely emasculated by Lyndon Johnson. When Johnson said, "Do not worry about Hubert, I have got his pecker in my pocket." He was not exaggerating. Spiro Agnew inaugurated the most successful right-wing propaganda campaign ever. He really changed the way the press was perceived, and he was the beginning of this obsession with balance, and the beginning of really moving the whole debate in Washington 25 degrees further to the right than it had been before. I think the seeds of those speeches have grown into giant trees of Fox News and Pat Buchanan being a major... Just all kinds of terrible things came out of him. SM (01:32:28): Benjamin Spock and Daniel and Philip Berrigan. CK (01:32:34): Well, we did all think we were Spock's children there for a minute. And he was very good about the war, and the Berrigans were two of the most courageous and honorable people of their time, I think, probably. SM (01:32:51): And then the women, which is Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, your thoughts on so-called leaders. I got Phyllis Schlafly's thoughts in person, but... CK (01:33:03): I admired Gloria enormously as a journalist. She wrote great stuff for New York Magazine. My favorite will always be her profile of Pat Nixon in the 68 campaign. And she asked Pat who she most wanted to emulate, and Pat naturally said, "Mamie Eisenhower." And Gloria said, why Mamie Eisenhower? And Pat said, "Because she captured the imagination of America's youth." SM (01:33:44): Wow. CK (01:33:44): And then she lost it, which Pat never did. But she lost it and she got pissed off, and she said, "We have not had it easy like other people, we have had to fight for everything we got. We have not had time to sit around and think about things like who we wanted to emulate." And Bella was... Well Bella, introduced the first gay civil rights law in Congress, so I guess I am grateful to her for that. And I think I probably voted for her against Pat Moynihan in the Senate primary, because I had not forgiven Pat for working for Richard Nixon. And I never read Betty for Dan's book, but I went to college with her son who I liked very much. Sean Friedan. SM (01:34:32): That is the one Phyllis Schlafly kept commenting on was her. She is the one that started it all with her books about the... Well, the attack on motherhood... CK (01:34:44): Betty was... SM (01:34:44): All that other stuff. CK (01:34:44): No, but she was very important in living a greater imagination about what possibilities of life were for them. SM (01:34:54): I know I mentioned the Black Panthers, but there is unique personalities within them. You have got Eldridge Cleaver, you have got Huey Newton, you have got Bobby Seale, you have got HRF Brown, you have got Stokely Carmichael, you have got Kathleen Cleaver. And of course you, Dave Hilliard is not as well known, and Elaine Brown, but Newton was pretty big. Seale was big too, but Newton was like, and Eldridge Cleaver who ended up becoming a conservative at the end. But just your thoughts on their personalities. Angela Davis was not one of them. She was just an activist. She was not a Black Panther. CK (01:35:30): I do not know enough about their personalities to have a useful opinion. SM (01:35:35): But overall, you just were afraid of them? CK (01:35:39): I thought they were pretty scary at the time, yeah. SM (01:35:42): How about George Wallace and Ronald Reagan? CK (01:35:55): George Wallace perfected what really became the strategy of the Republican Party for the next 40 years after he ran for president, not obviously as a Republican. But he really was the genius at focusing the fear of poor, dumb white men on everything that was different from them. And that is really pretty much been the essence of most Republican campaigns since then. And Ronald Reagan's campaign was successful for, among other reasons, a TV campaign run in all of the Southern states three weeks before the election, whose theme was the gaze of taking over San Francisco, and now they want to take over the White House. And Jimmy Carter's approval rating among evangelicals was, these are not real numbers, but something like 65 percent before this campaign and 35 percent after that campaign. And the Republicans under understood how to use and exploit the fear of black people and then gay people more effectively than any other major party. And they owe a lot of it to the path making of George Wallace. SM (01:37:50): Only about three or four more here, and then we are almost done with one final question. And that is Daniel, not Daniel Berrigan, Daniel Ellsberg in the Pentagon Papers number one. And Robert McNamara himself, the man himself. CK (01:38:13): McNamara did a lot to try to redeem himself during all the years after he was Secretary of Defense. He did actually understand by the time Johnson pushed him out, that the war had been a disaster, but he also probably had as much as any other single person had to do with getting us in there. And he was terribly two-faced throughout the time that he was in the administration. My favorite story, which I think I tell in 1968, which is when Kosygin was in London on one of the 18 failed peace missions, and there was a bombing halt in place, and they were about to resume the bombing while Kosygin was there. And David Bruce, my father's [inaudible] ambassador in England, wrote a telegram, marked it please pass to the President. This would be a catastrophe if you resumed the bombing while Kosygin is here. It will set a terrible message throughout the world. Cannot do this. And they did delay it for three more days. And the day after, or a couple of days after, Bruce sent his telegram, McNamara called him up and said, "David, thank you so much for that telegram, it arrived at just the right time. It was just enough to turn the tide and cannot tell you how useful it was." SM (01:39:55): Wow. CK (01:39:57): And then my father learned from somebody else who had been in the same room that when Bruce's telegram arrived, McNamara said, "Who the fuck is David Bruce to tell us when we should bomb and not bomb? What does he know about bombing?" So there was that. SM (01:40:16): Richard Nixon and Barry Goldwater? CK (01:40:21): Well, Richard Nixon was, when I was growing up, Richard Nixon was... My family had exactly the same shoot of Richard Nixon as Herblock did, that this was a man who hopped up out of sewers all across America when he was campaigning. And his role in the McCarthy period, and in all the red baiting and all of that stuff made him as bad a person as there was. Now, it is true that Ronald Reagan and the second George Bush have managed to make him look like a relative moderate, but this was not a great president. He went to China. He was the only person who could go to China and do that because he had spent all of his life up in that time taking the wine that would have made it impossible for any Democratic president to do that. So yes, it is great that he went to China. It is not great that he contributed to the isolation of the Chinese from the rest of the world for the previous 20 years. And without question, he prolonged that fucking war for five years longer than it should... SM (01:41:50): Can I use that word in the... CK (01:41:51): Absolutely. I mean, that is... SM (01:41:54): Everybody is going to see the transcription. CK (01:41:59): They were terrible. SM (01:42:00): And Barry Goldwater? CK (01:42:06): Well, my brother, David's favorite Art Buchwald column was the 180 wrote, I think in the spring of 1965, saying, "Thank God we defeated Barry Goldwater. If we had not, we would now have a hundred thousand more troops on the way to Vietnam and we would be bombing the hell out of the North Vietnamese, and it would all be a catastrophe." So I do not think the conservative movement has done America any real good in the last 50 years. And to the extent that Barry was the father of the modern conservative movement, I am not an admirer. On the other hand, he did have the balls to have the right position on gays in the military, I think long before Colin Powell did. SM (01:43:05): What is your thoughts on Buckley? Because Buckley was very important in the... CK (01:43:11): I think Buckley is also the father of many terrible ideas which have worked their way into the mainstream and done grave damage to America. SM (01:43:21): Sargent Shriver and the Peace Corps, and then Harvey Milk. I want your thoughts on... CK (01:43:28): The Peace Corps was an entirely good thing. And whatever Sarge did to make it a success was a wonderful thing. And when we lived in Senegal, we had the first class of Peace Corps people who were in Senegal and all over the world as well, but they were a very impressive group of young idealists who were responding to the call of the Kennedy administration to give two years of their life to make the world a better place. And that was genuinely impressive. SM (01:44:11): What was the second person? CK (01:44:13): Harvey Mill. SM (01:44:14): Yes. CK (01:44:18): I had a good friend named Jeff Katzoff who worked in gay democratic politics in San Francisco, so I used to hear a lot about Harvey through him. And I mean, he was very courageous and effective guy and a trailblazer. He was not the first openly gay person elected, that was really the state legislator in Minnesota. But he was certainly one of the first, and he was very important. And his assassination was an extremely disturbing event. And the second most disturbing thing was the pathetic sentence that his murderer received for this. And the movie, what is the name? Who plays the... SM (01:45:22): Sean Penn. CK (01:45:22): Sean Penn does one of the performances of a lifetime. The movie does something really important by capturing the political and emotional power of this person. SM (01:45:36): I am trying to interview Cleve Jones, but he is kind of... CK (01:45:39): Oh, you must be able to get to Cleve. SM (01:45:41): I ended up, I am going through this Tanner, they delayed it and delayed it. So I do not know what the delay is. Two more. Your thoughts on Jackie Robinson, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, which may be the predominant black personalities of the period. CK (01:46:03): Well, Jackie Robinson was a miracle. Both because he was so unbelievably talented and he seemed to have exactly the constitution and the demeanor that was necessary to play this unbelievably difficult trailblazing role. And who were the other two? King and... SM (01:46:32): King and Malcolm X. CK (01:46:39): I lived in Bethesda when King spoke on the march on Washington. And my Unitarian uncle minister Roger Greeley came to Washington for it. And everybody went into Washington, and there was an official, I think an official request by the organizers of the march not to have children there because they were so obsessed with having it to be a controlled event. So I stayed home and watched it on TV, and I have a vivid memory of one of the neighbors running into one of the kids my age in the neighborhood the next day saying, "We heard you cheering for Martin Luther King yesterday." He is not the most important American of the 20th century, which is probably Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He is certainly one of the five most important Americans in the 20th century because of his courage, intelligence, breadth of vision and charisma. He is, of all those great public speakers, he is probably the best of all those great public speakers. And most admirable for being so right so early about the Vietnam War, and being willing to do that, knowing exactly what the cost to him would be and still doing it. My favorite quote is at the beginning of that chapter of [inaudible 01:48:49], " One has to conquer the fear of death if he is going to do anything constructive in life and take a stand against evil." 1965. He was fearless. I think he was genuinely fearless. SM (01:49:20): Yep, I agree. And Malcolm. CK (01:49:22): Malcolm X, I was mesmerized by his autobiography that was ghost- written by, what is his name? SM (01:49:32): Alex Haley. CK (01:49:33): Alex Haley, yeah. That was one of the most powerful and exciting reading experiences of my adolescence just because I guess it described a life that I did not know anything about, and it was written with energy and passion. And certainly he is someone who I admire a great deal more afterwards than I did when he was alive. He also was somebody who I probably thought was a fairly threatening and scary figure, but he got less scary as he got it along. He went along, I think, and certainly his death was a terrible, terrible loss. SM (01:50:28): One of the important things, then we are done. We are done. Is the issue of religion too, and spirituality. The Beatles are very important part of this, how the Beatles split up, and George Harrison in particular. Well, all of them kind of... CK (01:50:43): That is the first end of the Beatles. How the (19)60s when the Beatles split up. That is certainly the first. SM (01:50:48): But also there is the fact that people went to church a lot, or synagogue in the (19)50s and they did not do it as much in the (19)60s. So there is a lot happening here. Billy Graham stands out to me as the number one evangelical of this whole period, and he has been pretty solid throughout. I think there was one president he did not like, and that was, Carter I think. He was not invited to the White House with him. But can you explain, when you talk about going off to make money, is the whole issue of religion and spirituality important? As the end of the Vietnam War happens, there is no more draft. So people will say, "Well, they go into themselves now they become, it is not we, it is about me." Is that really an important part of it there? CK (01:51:35): What the absence of religion? SM (01:51:37): Yeah, the absence of religion. The fact that I do not, more of fact I believe in the power above, but I do not necessarily believe in God. It was almost like an agnostic dogma. CK (01:51:48): Right. It probably, of course, parts of the church are very materialistic too, but I suppose it is broad absence made the wholesale embrace of crass materialism even easier. SM (01:52:10): Then the communal movement. Communes was that whole thing of getting away from it all. And so when the best history books are written about the (19)60s when we are all gone, I always say that when all the boomers have passed on, what do you think they will be saying about the boomer generation, historians, sociologists? CK (01:52:26): We made the best music. SM (01:52:29): Made the best music. CK (01:52:31): And we did transform. We transformed America. We transformed what was possible for black people and for women and for gay people. And all for the better. We did contribute a lot to America living up to the principles of the Constitution, of the Declaration of Independence in dramatic and important ways. It really was, before the (19)60s it really was a country defined by prejudice, and in which most of the most important positions of power were reserved or of avowedly heterosexual Protestant white men. And that has changed, and we deserve all the credit for that. SM (01:53:51): This is the absolute last question, and I swear. You already told about the fact that when you were a senior, you wrote that piece in your college paper. If you had... CK (01:54:02): In the New York Times about... SM (01:54:04): Yeah, in the New York Times. If you look at your (19)68 to (19)72 time in college, is there one specific event, either a speaker who came to your school or... CK (01:54:15): Saul Alinsky came to my... SM (01:54:17): Or a professor. CK (01:54:18): Saul Alinsky came to my prep school in about (19)67. That was very important. And the only good thing that happened to me in my entire prep school experience, I would say. The only public performance that I remember actually at Columbia, which was in (19)72 or three, was Don McLean coming and performing American Pie. SM (01:54:48): Wow. CK (01:54:48): And it was the only time I ever used my press card to talk my way into a performance at Columbia. No, I do not remember any other... SM (01:55:03): Any speakers you went to see at college? No? CK (01:55:04): I remember going to see Arthur Schlesinger speak at the University of Connecticut also during prep school. No. SM (01:55:20): Okay. CK (01:55:21): First thing I did politically was hand out stuff for John Lindsay at the polls in fall of (19)69 when he lost the Republican primary and he got reelected as an independent. SM (01:55:34): When you debated as a 10-year-old that other student where you had the platform, did you know going in into your opponent was not going to be as prepared as you were because you had the platform and he did not? CK (01:55:47): I think I as probably pretty confident as the son of Philip Kaiser that I would be more prepared than any opponent could be, yeah. I saw Steve again five years ago, and he apologized for taking the part of Richard Nixon. Steve Lane, L A N E. SM (01:56:05): Oh, wow. Is there any question I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? Because I have had some... CK (01:56:12): We did not really talk about Bob Dylan, who is as important a cultural figure as there is. SM (01:56:16): You can say a few things. I know I have to be 2:45. What time is it now? CK (01:56:22): 10 after two. SM (01:56:22): Yeah. I got to be over at his place at 2:45. CK (01:56:25): I have to be at the dentist at three, which is downtown. SM (01:56:29): Just on Bob Dylan. CK (01:56:33): Well, I would say the most religious, public religious experience I have ever had was listening to Bob Dylan at the Royal Albert Hall in 1965, when the uniform feeling within the audience was worship. Because he figured out a way to put our hopes and ideals to music in the most powerful way imaginable. And he demonstrated that one middle class Jewish kid from Minnesota could completely reinvent his life, and with nothing but a guitar and a harmonica transformed the way the entire vanguard of a generation around the world thought about itself and thought about its time. I think that as good as I will do, I think we can end there. SM (01:58:06): Yep. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Charles Kaiser Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaiser, Charles ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors, American; Journalists; Hunter College; Kaiser, Charles--Interviews Description An account of the resource Charles Kaiser is an American author, journalist and academic administrator. He was the Associate Director at the LGBT Social Science and Public Policy Center at Hunter College in NYC, a leader of the Grove Fellowship Program, and a weekend nonfiction book critic at The Guardian US. Kaiser has won the grand prize at the Paris Book Festival and his book The Cost of Courage received great reviews from the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, and the Christian Science Monitor along with some other publications. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.133a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.133b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 118:10 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c5c5d85fc29546f0a5eb73a9397c6397.jpg 7b085534e9f8abfc5024ca188067b8a1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fdbc01f71b432d6ff00a8d6aee9b37d0.mp3 102c02c4630d66c16bff519640feb21f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-01-15 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Charlotte Bunch, 1944- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Charlotte Bunch is an author, educator, scholar and organizer in women's rights and human rights movements. She is currently a professor in the Department of Women's and Gender Studies at Rutgers University. She has written many pieces which have focused on women's and human rights in the world. Bunch has a Bachelor's degree in History and Political Science from Duke University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6531,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Charlotte Bunch is an author, educator, scholar and organizer in women's rights and human rights movements. She is currently a professor in the Department of Women's and Gender Studies at Rutgers University. She has written many pieces which have focused on women's and human rights in the world. Bunch has a Bachelor's degree in History and Political Science from Duke University. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John F Kennedy; Bobby Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; \nWomen's Movement; Social Activism; Baby Boomers Generation; \nThe 1960s; Student Christian Movement; Kent State; Sexual liberation \n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4609,"3":{"1":0},"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">John F Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Women's Rights Movement; Social Activism; Baby boom generation; Student Christian Movement; Kent State; Sexual liberation; Activism Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 117:12 Subject LCSH Authors; College teachers; Women's rights; Human rights; Bunch, Charlotte, 1944--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Charlotte Bunch Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 15 January 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:07:53): I check this every so often. So, I think it will take there. I am a proud graduate of The Ohio State University. CB (00:07:59): Right. SM (00:08:05): When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? CB (00:08:11): Oh, I think when I think of the (19)60s, what comes to my mind first is the Civil Rights movement, the Black Civil Rights movement. For me, the (19)70s is the women's movement. So those are the shaping, biggest parts for me of that era. SM (00:08:32): When you were young in say elementary school where you lived with your parents, I believe you lived in New Mexico? CB (00:08:37): Yes, right. SM (00:08:38): Grew up there. What kind of environment was it and families you lived around, and students you went to school within those early years? Was there anything during those early years that sparked you and said there is something wrong? Or when did you start thinking about activism and the issues that we involved in civil rights and the women's movements and so forth? CB (00:09:03): Well, I grew up in a family that was not terribly political but were community activists. My parents were very involved, and my mother was the first woman president of the local school board in a small town. My parents were very active in civic affairs. So, I grew up in an ethos that you had some responsibility for the life of your community. So, in that sense, I grew up with a kind of activism of my own parents, but it was not so much political activism. It was more sort of social concern activism. So, I always thought about doing things like that. Somebody gave me a book called Girl's Stories of Great Women. I read about Elanor Roosevelt and Jane Addams, and Susan B. Anthony, so I always thought it would be really interesting to do things, missionaries. I thought I might be a missionary. Missionaries came to my local church and showed pictures of poor people and what they did to help them. So, the notion of living a life of service in that sense was very much the ethos of my childhood. The town I was in was a small, relatively backward, conservative town, so it was more my family, really, than the town. SM (00:10:33): Was there one specific event, whether it be a local event, a state event, a national event or a happening that really, the first time that... You had these small things. You got the commitment to serve, but was there something that really? CB (00:10:49): Well, I think what really transformed that into social activism was not in New Mexico but was when I went to college. In 1962 I went to Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. And the thing I remember most distinctly is I attended these dialogues that the Methodist student movement had with students from the Negro college, and it was called the North Carolina Negro College. We met African American students, and I saw in the paper one day that one of the guys that I had met was being arrested for his civil rights activism, and they were dragging him off to jail. So, I think of that as t moment when all of a sudden, I realized that I knew him. He was a nice guy. We had had a good conversation. And it sorts of sparked that there was something important and something wrong that this nice student who I knew, who was an African American, was being drug off to jail. So, I got interested in the civil rights movement, and I think that is really the one incident I remember the most. The first action I think I was involved in was, actually, some of us did a sit-in at the local Methodist Church, because it was still a segregated church. And we did what we called a pray-in. A group of us from the Methodist student movement went to the local Methodist church in Durham and sat on the steps outside and did a pray-in to protest the segregation in the church. So that was really my entry to thinking about social activism. SM (00:12:42): When you did that for the first time, because it takes a lot of courage. See, there is always the fear of what might happen if I am arrested, or is this going to be on my record, or will I be expelled? And then some, if I do not go along with my friends, then they will think that I am a chicken or whatever it might be. What were your feelings when you went to that first sit in or protest? CB (00:13:08): I think my feelings were, actually, I was so excited. I was nervous. I was nervous about what could happen, but I was so excited about doing something about something that I cared about. And I think I had been there about a year, so probably beginning of my sophomore year or the end of my freshman year in college. And I went with some of my friends; we decided together. Sara Evans was actually my best friend, and we did a lot of these things together. And it was at that point in time, Duke was a very conservative campus, and we were in the Methodist student movement. And the Methodist student movement was a place where people who thought differently were gathering, and we were studying racism and talking about these issues, and it just felt like the right thing to do. I did not worry about my friends. And I guess I felt safe. Initially, doing it at a church, I did not think they would arrest us. Our first action was a pray-in, and gradually, I went to other demonstrations, but I did not want to be arrested. I was not unafraid of being arrested. I was not brave. I was not one of those who jumped out in front of the cops and wanted to be arrested. I was not looking to get arrested, but it felt like the right thing to do. SM (00:14:57): Dr. King always used to say that " If you are afraid to be arrested or pay a price for your actions, then you really may not deeply care about the issue, because when you see justice or injustice..." Or even though it is a law, and it is an unjust law, you have a responsibility to change it or show in a peaceful way, change, you do not like it, through action. One of the things about the boomer generation is they are oftentimes attacked by conservatives like George Will. I tried to get Newt Gingrich to interview. He is always too busy. I understand that. He is a historian, too. Through the years, I have read some of the commentaries of both of these gentlemen, and they are kind of symbolic of many others who love to generalize about that era of the (19)60s, (19)70s and basically the boomer generation and the reasons we have a lot of problems in our society today, albeit not really the terrorism aspect. That is most recent, but the reason why we have all these issues today is because of that period, and they kind of look upon it as a negative. And I am talking about lack of respect for authority, the high divorce rate, no sense of responsibility toward a partner, drug culture, the sexual revolution and all the other things. It goes on and on, lack of respect. And, of course, at that time, a lot of complaints were against the military, too, and that particular thing, or anybody in positions of responsibility or authority. When you hear or you read, or anybody writing about that time period and they make those kinds of comments, what is your reaction? CB (00:16:49): My first reaction is to be totally annoyed with them, because I think that the people that were, certainly the people that I became a social activist within North Carolina in the civil rights movement from (19)62 to (19)66 were people who were deeply committed. Both the white and the Black people were taking a lot of risks. I mean, it was not easy in the south to be speaking up against these things. It was not popular. I hear these guys like Gingrich and others say it was a fad. Well, it was not a fad. It was a deeply felt conviction. And I think that it was challenging authority, but it was challenging patriarchal, racist authority. And I would still challenge patriarchal, racist authority. It was not challenging authority for its own sake; it was challenging oppression in the name of order. And it was challenging a certain kind of authority, which was an authority that was arbitrary, that was discriminatory and oppressive. I was an organizer; I believed in order. I was not an anarchist. I did a lot to structure the organizations I worked with. But we did not believe in dominant domination of people by one person or one leader. So, I think that they completely missed the point because they want to miss the point of what that movement was about. SM (00:18:36): They are both boomers, too. I think George Will might have been born in (19)40. CB (00:18:40): He is a little bit earlier, I think, yeah. SM (00:18:41): But Newt Gingrich is a boomer. CB (00:18:42): Yeah, he is a boomer, yeah. SM (00:18:43): Yeah, he was born in early the early (19)50s. CB (00:18:46): I mean Newt Gingrich is like a lot of guys on the Duke campus that I knew. I mean, there were a lot of them that really hated us because we were challenging the given authority structure, and they were, especially some of the white men in the south that I remember that he reminds me of, they were expecting to inherit the privileges of their parents, of their fathers in particular. So yeah, some of them, they were angry. They did not want this order to change because they did not understand that there were people who wanted to change that order. It worked well for some of them. SM (00:19:29): I would like to know your experience, because I was just talking to Bettina, too, on that. We all know that anybody whose read history like you have and been a part of it, that women were oftentimes treated as second-class citizens in the civil rights movement, in the sense of they were involved in the Montgomery bus boycott very strongly there. And there are the Dorothy Heights, and the Fannie Lou Hamers of the world. But overall, in the civil rights movement, that is an issue. Also, in the anti-war movement there was this issue, and in some of the people that I have interviewed in some of the other movements, whether it be the Chicano movement or the Native American movement, and even in the gay and lesbian movement, because David Mixner even made a comment about this, that women have oftentimes been put in the secondary roles. I would like your personal feelings about, as a female, being an activist in the boomer time frame here, about what you had to go through. Because we all hear that women were really secondary until the women's movement came about, and then of course, men were the problem. The women's movement became strong in the late (19)60s, the early (19)70s so to speak. Your thoughts on your experiences and whether that is really true. CB (00:20:45): Well, I think it is true, overall. I mean, as a generalization, yes, it is true. But there are multiple layers of that truth. I mean there are many different ways in which that manifested itself. So for example, in my story, I now think because I came into civil rights through the student Christian movement and the churches, and because I came in through the south from North Carolina, my leadership got encouraged by those student Christian movement leaders. And I was the president of the North Carolina Methodist student movement by my second year in college, and I was then the president of the National Student Christian movement and began an ecumenical project and experiment, so my leadership was actually nourished in this period. But it was nourished because there were women in the church who gave me encouragement and space. I think it was also nourished because in the south at that time, there were more white women than white men who were joining the civil rights movement, because women were more sensitive to these issues. I think there was a certain kind of space that I had as a student in the south coming into this through the churches that not everybody got. I mean, obviously, I had natural leadership skills, or I would not have been able to do that. I mean, I know that now. I did not know that then. So, when I began to feel the second-class status was actually not in the early (19)60s in North Carolina, but when I graduated from college, and I went to Washington, D.C., and I became part of the Institute of Policy Studies in Washington, which, I do not know if you know IPS, but IPS was the left wing think tank of that era. That is when I discovered how sexism worked. That is when all of a sudden, I went from being a fairly well-known leader of the student Christian movement based in the south and then nationally, to experiencing the invisibility that many women talk about, where all of a sudden... And I think one reason I became a feminist organizer so quickly is a little different that some other women. It was like, "Hey, I have led a national movement." And I would be sitting at the table of these seminars, and I would say something, and the men would ignore it. And 10 minutes later, a man would say something similar, and they would say, "Hey, what a great idea." and I was like, wait a minute. I mean, I am not used to this. So, there are many different layers of the story. It is not that none of us were ever encouraged; but for me, it was the growing up phase. You go from being a student to the adult left, and that is when I realized how sexist it was. And I actually think it was worse in the north than the south. This is a part that as somebody who's mixed heritage, my mother's from the north, my father from the south. I grew up in New Mexico. I see different aspects of the country, and I actually think some of the sexism was worse among northern white men, who actually felt more entitled in some ways than southern white men who were more understanding that they were oppressors because of the racial issue. SM (00:24:41): Some of things you are saying, Dr. King saw this too, because Dr. King knew. That is why he went north. CB (00:24:47): Right. SM (00:24:49): I know that Bayard Rustin was against him on his anti-war stand, Vietnam. We did a national conference on Bayard, so I respect Bayard. But on that particular thing, I think he was wrong; Dr. King was right. And a lot of the things that he went through when he came north, because he knew there was racism up here in the north. And all we have to do is remember Cicero. CB (00:25:08): Exactly. SM (00:25:10): I was in college, and I saw. I could not believe the way they treated him. CB (00:25:12): Right, exactly. SM (00:25:14): Before we go to the next question, I do not think you knew, but my grandfather was a Methodist minister. CB (00:25:19): Oh, really? SM (00:25:20): Yeah. McKiernan's an Irish-Catholic name, but my grandfather was abandoned along with his brother, by his father. He went off to Wall Street to make a lot of money, and he was raised by his grandparents. He was born in 1895. He died in 1956 when I was a little boy. But he was the minister of the first Methodist church in Peekskill, New York, from 1936 to 1954. CB (00:25:42): Wow. SM (00:25:43): He was well-known in Peekskill. And if I had lived long enough, I would have loved to have asked him about Paul Robeson's visit. You know? CB (00:25:51): Mm-hmm. SM (00:25:51): That terrible thing that happened, and Pete Seeger was with him. Because I interviewed Pete. CB (00:25:55): Oh, interesting. SM (00:25:56): And Pete told me about that, but I have read about it in the history books, too. Because a lot of people do not know Pete Seeger was with him. CB (00:26:01): I did not know that he was with him them. SM (00:26:03): Yeah, and they were going to kill him, too. So, it was just amazing, the links here. CB (00:26:10): So, I think that it is true that there was a sexism, and women were, in general, treated that way. But it does not mean that no women were able to exert leadership, as you said there were. Not only in Fannie Lou Hamers, but there were a lot of women. And I think particularly in the southern movement and among the white women, there were a lot of women who played fairly strong roles in a lot of those activities, but they are not the names of the highlights of history. SM (00:26:41): Yeah, people use that picture of Dr. King, too, with the march on Washington, and you see Dorothy Height over to the right, and you see Mahalia Jackson down below, but you do not see very many women there at all. There are a lot of women out in the audience, but there just are not the many up there. When you look at this boomer generation which is 70-some-million, and I want to let you know that I am trying to make sure this is inclusive, because some people have felt that when you talk boomer, you are talking white male. And I have had a couple people talk about that. So, this process is, I am not going to finish this project until I know that I have inclusion here. I am trying to get more women involved. I am trying to get African American perspectives. Certainly, I am trying to get Native American perspectives. I am going down to Washington to meet Paul Chaat Smith at the Native American Museum. And I am trying to get others to talk about it. I have already talked to a couple leaders of the Chicano movement on the West coast. I am trying to get a field, because boomers are everyone. They are male, female, gay, straight, Black, white, every other color you can imagine. And so that is what I am trying to do here. Because when I think of the boomer generation, I think of 70-some-million with all these different ethnic groups and the way they live their lives, and a lot of people do not, and this has been brought to my attention from some of the people. CB (00:28:02): It is true. SM (00:28:03): A lot of people think boomers are white males, so that is been a very sensitive thing. CB (00:28:08): I think of boomers as both men and women; although I do think that I think the term is more identified with white than with people of color. I do not think of it as only the men, though. I always think of myself as at the outside curve of the boomer generation, and I think of my younger sister as the boomer generation. So, I do not think of it as only the men. Although, I do think it has been used mostly in relation to the predominant white community. SM (00:28:40): When you look at this generation, what do you think some of the strengths are if there are some characteristics that are positive, and some of the characteristics that may be negative from your viewpoint? CB (00:28:50): Well, I think the most positive characteristic of being in the boomer generation was our belief, which I still have, that you do not have to accept things just because that is the way they are. That notion that change is not only possible, but change is a good thing, and you really can and should think about what you believe in and how you want to try to make it happen. I think that is, for me, the positive ethos of the (19)60s was the notion of change and the notion of making your life around what you believe in, and trying to figure out how to do that. At least that is what I identify as the positive. And the belief that equality and justice were important values. And I continue to believe that, although, the way one acts it out may be different in different historical moments. But I think that was the driving energy, and in some ways the... moments, but I think that was the driving energy and in some ways the prosperity of the predominantly, and maybe that is why I think more predominantly of the white part of the boomer generation, but prosperity was coming to African Americans too, starting to, made you able to see that consumption and things was not everything. I think part of our ethos was we were the generation in a way that did have it all. It was a prosperous era that we grew up in. If not when I was born, it certainly was by the time I was in school. And so the notion that all you had to work for was material prosperity, did not motivate me. I appreciated that, but it was not a driving force. I wanted something more. SM (00:30:56): That is beautiful because you see... Money. I could have been a lawyer. I chose higher ed. You do not ever make more than 60 grand in higher ed. CB (00:31:06): Yeah, exactly. SM (00:31:07): The richness with me was the ability to work in a university environment and to be around young people and to hopefully have an influence in their lives in terms of preparing for them for the world that they are going to lead and run and experience. That is what our role is. There is nothing greater than being a teacher or an administrator that works for students. CB (00:31:26): Yeah. There is nothing greater than doing the work that you love, whatever it pays. And I think our generation understood that in some ways, because many of us, and I do not deny the fact that there was still poverty, but many of us, a large number of us, grew up with enough security that we did not feel that that was the only purpose in life. And some of the negatives may come from not understanding well enough what those limitations meant in other people's lives. And I think there have been some arrogances around class and racial issues in the early part of the movement, not understanding enough where people who did not have the security came from. But I think we learned that. SM (00:32:15): I think some of the things that I have heard about, I have read an awful lot. I am reading demographic materials too. And one of the things is that a lot of boomers have become very rich, very rich, including Vietnam vets. There was a period a couple years ago, it might have been maybe 10 years ago, that of the 50 richest Americans, 10 of them were Vietnam vets. CB (00:32:39): Interesting. SM (00:32:40): At the time that... Well, Ross Perot, well, I am not sure if he was a Vietnam vet, but he was in that group too. So, I find this interesting because they are also attacked as being the consumption, the credit card problems, and got spend now... And it is again, generalizing on characteristics and be generalizing, blaming an entire group, which is impossible to do. CB (00:33:10): Yeah. As you know, because you are doing these interviews, there are different strands within the boomers. I was part of the political strand of activism, and we had our own critique of some of the hippies strand. On the one hand we liked it that they were critical of the establishment, but we thought they were too self-centered also. My part of the movement, the political part, we were critical of some of the hippies. We thought they were too self-centered. They were just taking the freedom we were trying to create for themselves and not giving back. So, I think that is also important to remind people that there are many strands within boomerdom, even within what you might call the left of boomerdom. SM (00:33:59): Have not even gone into the people that went into communes because communes... Easier way of life, but they just dropped out. CB (00:34:09): Dropped out, yeah. SM (00:34:11): And they raised family. What do you think about this category? A lot of boomers thought they were the most unique generation in American history when they were young. I can remember feeling this and hearing it, just a sense that we belonged as a group. There is a sense of community here, and a lot of people say what happened to that community as they got older? But what are your thoughts when you hear the boomers say that we were the most unique generation in the history of this United States of America because many of them felt when they were young that they were going to be the cure-all, the panacea, they were going to solve all the issues and create peace, love and harmony and end war and racism, sexism... All these things. Well, obviously those things still exist. CB (00:35:07): Yeah, I think that is where the people who say that the boomer generation is arrogant have some justification. I think that we did a little bit too much think that we could change it all. I think the good part was we believed in change and it was worth working for. And probably the arrogant part was not understanding well enough what it really takes to make that happen. And sometimes just thinking almost too highly of what we could do. And I am a lifelong activist, so I watched the people who dropped out, and I think some of them did not understand that this was about a lifetime. This was not just a moment. But I had a sense of history. I was a history major myself, although I never became a historian. But maybe I had less of that because I grew up in a small town. So, you do not grow up with a sense of being a part of this big ethos. And I am always a little bit skeptical when people think we are the most unique thing that ever happened, so I might put that as somewhat true, but not on the more positive part of who we were. SM (00:36:36): When you look at the (19)60s for the boomers now, we know when it began for you, but when you look at this generation, what do you think most of them would say when the (19)60s began and when it ended? Were there watershed events for both? CB (00:37:00): Watershed events for the boomers? SM (00:37:02): For for the boomers themselves. And along the same line, what do you think... Again, everybody's different. I have asked this. Some people are specific. "So, this is the one..." But I think the event that may have shaken their lives more than any other event. CB (00:37:19): Yeah. I think there are several watershed events, probably subcultures of that for sure. There is certainly a series of... I do not know if it is an event, but there is certainly two or three watershed moments in the early (19)60s around civil rights. The March on Washington is the high point of that. But I would say the killings in Mississippi of the four. And the other killings, those several killings during Mississippi summer, that was a watershed time, the four of them. And then Mrs. Lucio, the Philadelphia woman, and I cannot remember exactly when all of that happened. SM (00:38:03): Leeozo? I forget her name. From Chicago. CB (00:38:09): And for me personally, the Selma Montgomery March I went to. SM (00:38:13): You were there? CB (00:38:14): I went to the Selma Montgomery March. I went from the National Methodist Student Movement, got asked by some of the people working in the United Methodist Church to go down to Montgomery. And we worked with the Montgomery end of the Selma Montgomery March on finding housing for everybody who came to march. So, we lived in the Montgomery community. I took a week off school and I went there. And we were in the Montgomery part of the march. I did not go to Selma, but we were working to help. We had a whole student group, an integrated student group working to help with housing for the march. So, I think that configuration, Mississippi Summer, the Selma Montgomery March, the March on Washington, those were watershed... Maybe different events were watershed for different people. But that was a watershed time in race relations for my generation. That is when we got it that this was important, whichever one it was that turned you, but that configuration of things. SM (00:39:25): Did you meet Dr. King or JL Chestnut? Do you know who JL Chestnut is, the great lawyer from Selma? CB (00:39:31): Well, I was a student. I saw them. [inaudible 00:39:33]. We had Martin Luther King speak at our National Methodist Student Movement Conference. So, we had him there as part of our presence. I was not personally... We have a picture here of one of the other women in our group introducing him at that conference, the Methodist Student Conference. SM (00:39:57): Oh, my God. Wow. I got to get this book. This just come out? CB (00:40:02): No, it came out a couple of years ago. SM (00:40:03): [inaudible]. CB (00:40:06): Well, it is Rutgers University Press. I helped get it published, but they never promoted it well. SM (00:40:14): Well, this is a [inaudible]. CB (00:40:16): But for what you are doing, and especially to bring you some of the women's voices. Because this is specifically- SM (00:40:22): I might like to interview Sarah. CB (00:40:23): ... about the women. You should interview Sarah. SM (00:40:25): Where does she live? CB (00:40:26): Minnesota. I will give you her email or you can get it. But if you look at that, you may choose to interview others too. But Sarah, you should definitely interview Sarah. SM (00:40:38): I think it is important because you are only the third person that I have ever met who has actually met Dr. King or been in a room with him. The first person I ever met was a person who was a student at Michigan State University when he spoke. It was a PhD professor. And he said, this would be about a short time before he was assassinated, and he was in a big auditorium in Michigan State or a gym, some big facility, and he seems very close to him. And I do not know if he is saying this to me just for drama, but he said, "I think something is going to happen to him. He is too good to stay alive." That was an unbelievable statement. "Too good to stay alive." CB (00:41:22): Wow. SM (00:41:22): And he said, "It is almost like when you saw him on the stage, it was like there was just something different about him. He was just a great speaker, but there was this ambience." Could you explain what it was like if you were in the audience, what it felt like to be listening to him? CB (00:41:40): Yeah, he had a very powerful, moving presence. Sometimes you are around people that you just feel you are in the presence of some kind of greatness, I think it was. I was never in a personal situation with him. I was in the audience on a couple of occasions, and it was that sense of inspiration of somebody who really embodied doing what he believed in and made you want to do the same. My memory of it was very inspiring. And it made you feel that it is possible. I do not think I had any premonitions of his death. I would not say that I had that, but I had a sense that this person was moving history, and he inspired me and made me feel like we can make things change, things can be done. And it was a quiet leadership. It was a strong, steady, quiet leadership. It was not a bombastic leadership. SM (00:43:04): You are right on. James Farmer was on our campus, he was totally visually impaired. But I spent two days with him. And so, we shared a lot of things besides the programs. And I asked him what it was like to be in a meeting with him. And he said he did not speak much. He just listened. We had to go... "And Martin, what do you think?" Well, this person you saw at the pulpit in church or on the stage is not the man who was in meetings. He was listening to everything and taking it all in before he made a decision. And David Hawk, who I interviewed yesterday, was in the meeting with him when he was deciding if he was going to give the speech at Riverside Church in 1967, Rabbi Heschel and how important Rabbi Heschel is, very important, in inspiring him to go do it. And that is another man in the Civil Rights Movement's that is got to be talked about more, the Jewish rabbi. And he said the very same thing James Farmer said. He did not say hardly anything in the meeting. He was listening. He was a listener. CB (00:44:03): He was a listener. That is right. And when he spoke, you listened. Because he did not bombast you and speak all the time. You knew when he spoke there was something you wanted to hear. SM (00:44:15): I got a few more general questions, then I am going to get with a lot of women's issues here. This is one I have to read to you because our students put this together when I was at the university in the late (19)90s. We took a group of students down to see Edmund Muskie. I got to know Senator Nelson, and he helped us organize some trips to meet leaders. So, this is for eight to 14 students. Senator Muskie had just gotten out of the hospital and he had been watching the Ken Burns series when he was in there. And you could tell he was not feeling very good, but he still met with us. And we asked him this question. This was actually a question that was written by students because they wanted to know- CB (00:44:51): Is this still...? Oh yeah, it is still right. Sorry. SM (00:44:58): They knew about 1968. So, here is the question. Do you feel that the boomer generation is still having a problem from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart? [inaudible] divisions between black and white, the divisions between male and female, gay and lesbian, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. Then they put in here, what did the wall play in healing the nation beyond the veterans? Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or are we wrong in thinking this? Or has... The number of years has changed here... That made a statement that "time heals all wounds" is truthful? Is there an issue within the boomer generation, is what I am saying? Is there an issue on healing that there seemed to have been... And Muskie responded by saying that he would not respond to it. His response was, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And then he went on for 15 minutes about how the issue of the Civil War killed 400 some thousand men, actually almost wiped out an entire generation. And he said, "For what?" He got real emotional, well emotional for him, and he did not even talk about (19)68. CB (00:46:20): Well, I do think (19)68 is another watershed moment in terms of the (19)60s. I think (19)68 is a watershed moment for a number of things, including actually becomes really a watershed period for women, (19)68, (19)69. But I think it was a watershed moment in terms of the Vietnam War and definitely the growth of that, and the Democratic Convention, of course, as the symbol of that. But I would not put all of those [inaudible]. I would say that the (19)60s boomer generation has not healed from the divisions between those who questioned authority and those who upheld it. And the divisions between those who questioned the Vietnam War in particular and those who did not. I think some of those things have not healed. I think that is true that some of those divisions have not healed. I do not think the (19)60s were a division between black and white or even male and female. I think those issues are very different when you are talking about what are the divisions. Because what the (19)60s did around black and white and around male and female and gay and straight is bring forward the voices of the oppressed. And I think the (19)60s laid the groundwork for the possibility of new relationship across racial lines for, eventually, what I think were beginning to experience of a more equal male female relationship. And ultimately a better relationship between... It is not even relationship, an opening up of our rigidity around sexuality and sexual orientation. So, I actually think that the wounds that may not have healed are the wounds from whether you were for or against authority. And you see that in the Clinton, Bush... Two holes of the (19)60s still playing out. SM (00:48:44): Senator Kerry too. CB (00:48:47): And I think that still has not healed. But I think on the other issues, the (19)60s did not make those wounds. The racial wounds go much earlier. The racial wounds, for me, the (19)60s began to address the racial wounds so that we might someday reach a place where there will be a difference. And on male, female, I also feel it started a process that yes, there is still, certainly the sex wars, culture wars over sexuality indicate that the culture is still divided. But it did not get divided by the (19)60s. The (19)60s opened up new possibility. So, to me, they are different, they are different things with each of those. None of them are resolved. They are still ongoing, but they represent different things. And if anything, on racial issues, I think the (19)60s opened the greatest possibility because before the (19)60s, we did not have anything like... If we were not divided on race, it was because we were accepting an oppressive situation. And actually, we were divided because there are 100 years of people struggling over the racial issues before the (19)60s. SM (00:50:08): Jan Scruggs wrote that book, To Heal a Nation. Of course, he is the founder. He is an interesting person in his own right. Now, he will not be involved in this process because he is... Diane Carlson Evans will, but he will not. Muller will, but he will not. I understand. He is a different person and he has had a lot of issues building the wall. He is a really good man though. So that is the bottom line. But in his book, To Heal a Nation, he thought his goal was that though the wall not only heals the veterans and their families, which is a primary goal and pay respect for those who died and served in that war, but to also start the healing process for the nation. And that is why he titled his book that. Do you think the wall has done anything to heal a nation with respect beyond the boomers? How about the anti-war people who I have always felt... I did not serve in the war. I was in graduate school. I could not go because I broke my arm. I was in a lot of things. But how many parents have actually gone down to that wall since it was built in (19)82, when the kids are saying, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" Reflecting on who they were. CB (00:51:18): I think the wall was an important lesson for all of us. If you think about anti-war activism in this era around Iraq, we were all... And I was not a leader in it, but I certainly participated in it. We were all much more careful about the fact that the soldiers who died were not the ones that should be vilified. That it was the people sending them. I think we learned from Vietnam. I think that the wall was a very important symbol that the division should not be between those who died or who fought and those who did not. But between those who sent people to fight and those who thought it shouldn't be done, and I think the new anti-war movements are much more careful about that. SM (00:52:14): I agree. CB (00:52:15): So, I think we did learn something from that wall. I am not sure it healed the Vietnam War moment, but I think it taught us as a people. It was a part of something we learned. And I would not say the wall did it, but the wall helps. It is part of that. It is part of that process. SM (00:52:33): As a non-veteran, I have been down there since... It gets kind of emotional for me because I have been down there since '93 and I have gone to the Memorial Day and Veterans Day ceremony. I just want to get a feel and taking probably a couple thousand pictures of the speakers and all... [inaudible] came and everything. I might do a book on that sometime as a non-veteran. But I still see that there is of people have healed and he is an awful lot, but a lot of men [inaudible]. And you can see it through the tears, but you also see it by those who refuse to go. I am going back here, but Bill Ehrhart, the great Vietnam poet who I interviewed in Philadelphia, tremendous poet. He says, "I cannot stand the wall." I said, "Well, why?" He says, "Because the fact that it throws my buddies in my face, the names. The names are nothing to me. It is who they were." It was his perception. And he did not like it for that reason. It is not the way he... So, there is divisions even [inaudible]. And I said, "My golly, you would even got divisions over the wall." The other issue was the issue of trust. Because I prefaced this question by when I was a first-year student, I remember was in the philosophy class, and this teacher was talking about trust. The whole lecture was on trust. And I think Socrates was there and Aristotle, you are bringing everything in. But in the very end, the bottom line was that if you cannot trust someone, then you are not going to be a success in life. "And I cannot trust somebody and be a success in life?" I am remember going back and talking to my friends about that. And of course, the boomers were not a very trusting generation because they did not trust any of the leaders that were in positions of responsibility at that time. Most of them. Or the 15 percent of the boomers that were activists. And that is they did not trust the presidents, the presidents of universities, ministers, rabbis, corporate leaders, politicians. If anybody who was in a position of responsibility, I do not like you. That is a lack of trust. And there is a lot of reasons for that. It is seeing leaders lie to the American population, whether it be Johnson about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution or Watergate, one of the enemies lists. And a lot of people did not even trust Gerald Ford, that he had a deal with Nixon. And Eisenhower lied about the U-2 incident. Anybody who was cognizant, I think boomers were a little more well-read than they are today, the college students. So, your thoughts on, is this a generation of people who just cannot trust, and what has this done to their kids and their grandkids in terms of this passes on to them? CB (00:55:28): Well, I think that it is true that part of the legacy of that period is distrusting particularly political authorities. And being unwilling to accept the excuses because we felt we were lied to. I think it is true that today, politics in America have suffered from that because we have a very distrustful and aggressive political culture. Maybe some of that came out of the (19)60s, I am not sure if I want to blame it on that. But in my own experience as a (19)60s activist, I did not distrust everybody in authority, but I did not trust them unless they did something to prove they were trustworthy. I did not distrust every minister or every president of a university. I thought some of them were okay because of the way they dealt with things. But I did not trust them just because they were authority. And I think we did see the breakdown of the notion that you should follow them just because they were in authority. And I do not think that is bad. But I think the bad part is that we have not had a political period since then in which our political culture has given us reason to trust our politicians again. And I think that is really sad. I think what is sad is that they cannot be trusted because we have not learned how to do politics in a way that does not lead to all of this. So, there is some- SM (00:57:24): What is really amazing to me is when I saw, when President Obama was speaking joint session of Congress and that congressman stood up and said, "You lied." He apologized, but he really believes it. And I know conservatives who said they would have said the same thing. "He is a liar." That throw back memories of politicians coming to university campuses and being shouted down, speakers and everything. So, he has not even been given much of a chance. CB (00:57:55): No, I think there is a... The problem is not just that we do not trust. The problem is that we do not have a culture that we feel we can trust them. And that is a problem. And I do not know that I have more to say on it than that. But yeah, I think that is an issue. Yeah. SM (00:58:19): I have some questions here about in the area of the women's movement. I know this is a very broad question, and I know Bettina said that she did not have the time to... We were toward the end of the interview, but when you look at the women's movement, 1970 on... I know a lot of the great things it is done. But if you were to reevaluate it, what are the mistakes that have been made, many of them by the boomers who have taken over the leadership roles, and what are the strengths? And what are the good things they have done? And where do they still have to go? I know about men. Men still have got to get it. I know that. We all know about pay. That whole issue is still in the... I think we are going to get beyond the pay thing. I think the pay thing- CB (00:59:09): We will get beyond the pay thing. Well, since you started it, I will start with men then I will come back to the question. I think the real issue for men is household responsibility. I think the issue that men have to get is the work that women do in the home. I do not live with men. I am a lesbian, so I do not experience it personally, but all of my feminist straight friends, if there is one issue that they are angry still about men, it is the degree which most men have not assumed the responsibilities of sharing the work of their homes. I think on a personal level, that is the issue that at least I hear women complain about the most. Apart from sexuality, which is much more complicated- CB (01:00:02): ...Apart from sexuality, which is another much more complicated issue. So, I do not want to go there, but I mean, in terms of male, female roles in this country. I think that is probably changing more with younger men. I am not sure it will change with older men, but I think it is changing. Certainly, it has changed with some of the younger men, not all of them, but certainly with some of them. In terms of the ... I mean, it is a huge question. I am trying to think what I could say that is useful. I think that- SM (01:00:38): In terms of the leadership now. Dr. Roche Wagner, one of her magic moments in the interview. Do you know her? CB (01:00:47): No, I do not. SM (01:00:47): Dr. Roche Wagner. She is up in Syracuse. She is an activist. She said, "First off, women." I said, "Who are your role models?" And she said, "Well, no, no, no, no. We do not do that in women's movement. We do not take a Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug. I mean, it is all of us." She corrected me on that when I was starting to say these things. When you think of them, do not put a name on it, but the women's leaders and the strategies they have used. Because one of the things that really upset me as a young administrator was when the Equal Rights Amendment did not pass. Because my first boss was one of the leaders of the ERA in Ohio. Dr. Betty Menson, I do not know if you have ever heard of her, she has passed away. And she was in her early fifties, and she was working on her PhD. She was, for almost six months, she was in constant communication, working in the office, spending time beyond. She paid for the bill if it was work there. And then I remember when that did not pass in Ohio, and I can remember hearing her reaction after she had put two years of work. CB (01:02:02): Right. SM (01:02:02): In the Equal Rights Amendment. So, it was what has there been any strategies or mistakes that have been made by the women's movement that could do it all over again? CB (01:02:15): Yeah. I do not know whether you would know what to do to do it all over again. I think that the strength of the women's movement, in terms of what it has achieved, is that it really brought the issues of power and domination and violence and how we live our lives together with the politics of that era. It really brought home that these questions we were asking about injustice, and oppression, and power, and ultimately violence against women were also aspects of people's personal lives. And really brought home that what is, to me still one of the fundamental, unresolved, but important questions of our day. Which is the link between violence in the home, violence against women and children, and violence of war. I still believe that these are connected, and that is what the women's movement has tried, on some level to bring home. That the way in which you dominate and violate and allow that to happen in personal life, whether it is in the family or in racial violence on the street, or homophobic violence. Ultimately is connected to the way in which we accept the violence of war and the violence against the earth and global climate questions. To me, they are all manifestations of a domination mode of being, and that somehow all of these movements in their own way are trying to overcome. But what I think the women's movement contributed is that politics is not everything personal is political. But what happens personally is also, there is also political dimension to it. I am not saying every single act is political, that would be absurd. But that there is a political dimension to daily life, that has to also be part of the change. I think that is what the women's movement has tried to communicate. Sarah's book, personal politics, the personal is political. I mean, there are all these slogans from it. But what it has really been fundamentally about is that those things we call personal are not outside of the realm of political dynamics and dimensions and affecting the world. Now, do we know how to change that? It is huge. I mean, racism is also huge, and we have not accomplished that. These are dynamics with hundreds, if not thousands of years of history behind them. I think we were all naive about how fast these changes could happen. I think the women's movement was naive, but I think we are also part of the Boomer (19)60s naivete. In the sense that we all thought by wanting to do different and better, you could. And on one level, I think we have led lives that were the beginning of very important changes. But we underestimated how deeply ingrained all of these things are, and how much it takes to actually change them. We thought whether it is the Equal Rights Amendment, which seems simple because it is a legal instrument, or violence against women. Which is a much more difficult deep issue in terms of daily life. I think we underestimated how strong the forces were that we were trying to change. SM (01:06:00): What I like about your background is you are linked to the United Nations. When I think of the United Nations, I always think of Eleanor Roosevelt, and I just think she was way ahead of her time and every other way. She was the conscience of FDR, and she put them in this place several times. CB (01:06:15): She definitely did. SM (01:06:17): But what I really like about your background and when I see a real big plus in the women's movement is the global aspect. What started out as a women's movement, whether you go back to Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and I have taken my members of my family over there to Seneca Falls. I remember taking my dad over there before he passed away, and we had a great day over there, and sitting on her porch. One of my favorite pictures is my dad walking up the back stairs in the Elizabeth Cady Stanton's home. I said to myself, "How could she have done all this and this house so far away? And Frederick Douglas came here, and this is the actual room where they sat and all the people that came through there." But not sure what question I was getting at there. CB (01:07:06): Well, you were about the global. SM (01:07:11): It is the global aspect. Because you see, we have to prepare millennial students, and we should have been doing this with generation X-ers too. To prepare students for the world, these are world issues now. And the women's movement was about issues here in the United States, but even in some of the early books, women were thinking about the world. I had one of the first booklets from a convention that was held, and they seemed to be ahead of the game in so many things. This is a world issue. CB (01:07:40): Right. SM (01:07:42): Is this one of the positive things that I am saying here, that what was something for the United States is global, and that the women's movement has played a key role in this? And you in particular could played a key role? CB (01:07:56): No, I think that the women's movement, because I mean, Virginia Wolf said, "As a woman, I have no country." Because women did not even have citizenship and the vote. I think that the identification of the women's movement with women elsewhere enabled us more quickly to see the global connections. Not every woman, but as a group, and to understand that these dynamics and issues we were talking about were happening to women elsewhere too. Yes, you could have a movement about it in the US but you could not say that this is only a US problem. Even to the extent that racism was a global problem, but it had a very particular US history. It was more of a national phenomenon. I think that did kind of make us look outward, and our predecessors did. I mean, Eleanor Roosevelt did, and Virginia Wolf did, and Elizabeth Cady Stanton looked out too beyond this country. So, I think there is that dimension to it. SM (01:09:06): I like your thoughts too. Another thing that I look at the women's movement as being, at least the things that I have read. Johnnetta Cole, former president of Spelman College, wrote a book in the late (19)90s, a really thin book, and she was still president there. She talked about the conflict of being a female because she was a ... It is okay for her to be involved as a female in racial issues, but when she starts crossing over into women's issues. Well, I think some of the men did not like it, and certainly some of the women did not like it. "Your role should be in race because you are black." "Well, am I female first, right? Or am I black?" She brought it up in her book about the conflict, and that was really a revelation to me because she wanted to belong to both. But she was a little hesitant. Had you seen that too, or? CB (01:09:54): Well, I think there was a period, I think it is less so now, but I think there was a period when many women of color were feeling like they were being forced by one movement or the other to choose what was most important. A whole way of thinking has emerged in women's studies that I think is also now more present in the rest of the world about intersectionality as a result of that conflict. I mean, they really got us and many people to think about the fact that these things affect each other. It is not just one or the other. How you are treated as a woman is affected by your race and how you are treated as a black person is affected by the gender and sexual orientation, and all the other things have evolved in class. I think this way of thinking is now much more understood as a result of the geneticals and the people who first talked about that conflict. SM (01:10:54): I know one of the things that is still a big issue in higher education now that I have left it, but I have sensed it for a long time. I hope they are doing a better job, and that is between gay and lesbian students and African American students. Because when we ... Did you get a phone call? CB (01:11:07): No, just going to turn off the light. That is bright. SM (01:11:14): This is your interview. But when we had a conference on Byron Ruston, several black male students did not want to be involved, because he was a gay man, and they did not know about it. They were raised within their church that this is wrong, and their ministers had preached that it was wrong. But the big issue in the university is people of color who may be also gay or lesbian, and in the fear of going into a gay and lesbian office for fear of what their friends say. The pressures for young people and their peers are unbelievable today. And I still think we have a long way to go on that particular issue. CB (01:11:46): Oh, we do. We do. Absolutely. I actually think that the women's movement has made space for gay and lesbian issues to emerge more broadly than they would have otherwise. Because gay and lesbian issues are also challenging gender, and there is a natural connection between women's challenging gender roles and gay and lesbian. They are not the same, but there is an intersection there. But for people of color, I work with lesbians of color all over the world, and it is a constant struggle. I mean, I work with women all over the world and every culture. Muslim lesbians, who are all struggling with how to work out. They are very committed to women's rights, and if they come out as a lesbian, that will make it harder for them to work on women's rights. I mean, I just had lunch with one today who was talking about, "How do I manage this?" I mean, this is a constant struggle because the lack of acceptance of this issue means that the space for all the people of color who are lesbian and gay is very, very narrow. SM (01:13:02): I guess as I get older, and as I have more experience, it is just the whole business of you cannot be who you are. America is supposed to be about being who you are, being comfortable with who you are. We are a part of a community, the greatest thing that we all have is our differences. Some people say our differences. I think our differences are is our strength. CB (01:13:25): It is our strength. SM (01:13:26): And that we need to respect everybody for who they are, and what they are. We got a long way to go on that. I can understand religious beliefs, but not anybody that believes that they are better than someone else. CB (01:13:37): Well, most religious beliefs do not justify any of these things. If you go to the core of the religions. I left being an active, having come out of the student Christian movement. I left being an active Christian when I came out, because I was like, "I have no interest in a God or a religion that thinks I am inferior." SM (01:14:01): Women's leadership in the church is an issue. CB (01:14:04): I do not need that. But I do not think it is inherent to any of the religions. What I know from the period when I was more involved in religious movements is that whether you are talking about Islam or Christianity, any of them. All the cultural trappings about women's roles and sexuality come from the cultures. They do not come from the religious ideas. They come from the cultures at the moment that those ideas were born and developed. They vary from place to place enormously, because they take on the cultures of where they are. Those cultures are cultures, but they are not religions. The religious ideas do not have to be attached to these cultural trappings. The unfortunate thing is people get the cultural trappings mixed up with the core ideas. SM (01:14:58): Who were the people, the books that you read when you were at Duke? Or say 10 years out of Duke, when you were young? What were the books that had the greatest influence on you? What were your peers reading? Were there authors, writers that just had a tremendous influence on you? CB (01:15:17): Oh, sure. I mean, in that period of time. I suppose initially it was the James Baldwins and the Frantz Fanon and people that I was reading about the dynamics of race in the world. Then over time, Simone de Beauvoir, some of the early writings of feminism. Even Betty Friedan's book at that point. I read Betty Friedan's book when I was a college student. SM (01:15:53): Came out in (19)59, I think. Feminine Mystique? CB (01:15:56): Oh, thought it was more (19)61. But anyway, it was that period. I read it when I was a freshman in college, and I said, "Okay, I am not doing that." I mean, it was very helpful. It was like, "Okay, I am not letting that happen to my life." So, these were influential in those kinds of ways as well. I also read a lot of theology when I was a student, because I was involved in sort of radical theology circles and Paul Tillich and all these people. They were helpful as you sort your way through those moral dilemmas of your life. SM (01:16:48): How about the music now? The (19)60s music was unbelievable. Obviously, the folk music, the rock, and certainly the Motown sound. But how important has music been in your life in terms of the artists and what maybe the messages and the music? Has music been a very important part of what you have done and the boomers that you have seen it was important to them? CB (01:17:14): Well, I think it has been an important part of the Boomer experience, yeah. I think probably the music that was most important to my political life was women's music. Was the Holly Nears and the Meg Christians and the Chris Williamsons. The emergence of the women's music culture was very important to the women's movement in the seventies. As we were trying to gain a sense of validation of our identity and our realities, and certainly Holly Near was important. Part of her importance is that she came out of a larger folk music tradition too, and still is a part of a larger folk music tradition. SM (01:17:59): When I first get to see her, was in Slaughterhouse-Five as a 12-year-old. CB (01:18:02): You were lucky. SM (01:18:04): I get to know her, right? But I do not know her to real well. But we brought her to campus and she really supports this project. CB (01:18:12): Yeah, no, she is wonderful. But I think mean, the folk music of the (19)60s that was important to me, initially was just literally the Civil Rights songs. I mean, the singing of the We Shall Overcomes and the We Are Climbing Jacob's Ladder and all those kinds of things. That was important as a mobilizing music. But the music that probably most affected my political work was the Women's music. SM (01:18:40): You ever listen to Peggy Seeger? She is real good. CB (01:18:43): She is great. SM (01:18:43): She is unbelievable too. She was in England for all those years. CB (01:18:47): Yeah. SM (01:18:49): I am going to read some stuff. This is the part where I just mention a name or a term. Just give a few words or thoughts, and you do not have to in any detail. It is called "What does this person mean to you? Or what does this mean to you?" CB (01:19:06): What is the association? Okay. SM (01:19:08): What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? CB (01:19:10): The Vietnam Memorial, the Wall? SM (01:19:16): Yeah, the Wall. CB (01:19:17): Well, we kind of talked about it. So, I guess it means to me a reminder that that war is about the death of people. SM (01:19:24): About? CB (01:19:24): The death of people and real people. In this case, the Americans who died, there should be one with the Vietnamese who died too. SM (01:19:38): Kent State and Jackson State? CB (01:19:39): Oh, Kent State was very important to me. I was in Hanoi. I was on a trip to North Vietnam, with an anti-war trip when Kent State happened. I was on an anti, a mobilization against the war movement trip where I had been invited to go and talk to them about the potential of the women's movement as an anti-war force. SM (01:20:02): Now, who invited you to that? CB (01:20:05): The Mobilization committee to end the war in Vietnam. Again, because I had a history of working in civil rights, and then I went to the Institute for Policy Studies, and I had worked against the Vietnam War from the Student Christian Movement. So, I knew those people. Then when I became a feminist, I was one of the feminists who was still linked to that world of the anti-war movement. SM (01:20:32): Who was on that trip with you? CB (01:20:37): Elizabeth Sutherland Martinez, her name, she is now called Patina Martinez. Chicano woman who talked about the Chicano movement, who was also a feminist. A guy named Frank Joyce from Detroit, who had started People Against Racism, one of the white organizations against racism, and a guy named Jerry Schwinn, who was Return Volunteers. We were all constituencies that the Vietnamese asked to know more about, because none of us were primary anti-war movement. We were all against the war, but we all represented other constituencies. They asked to meet with representatives from those constituencies to talk about the potential for mobilizing those constituencies to be stronger forces against the war in Vietnam. SM (01:21:30): And how did you find out all the way over there that Kent State had happened? Do you remember the moment? CB (01:21:37): I do not know if I remember the moment they told us. SM (01:21:42): Because the bombing was on April 30th, 1970. CB (01:21:45): I was going to say, what was it? It was April 30th. SM (01:21:46): And on May 4th was the shooting. CB (01:21:50): I think we were actually in Laos when the bombing happened, the April 30th bombing. And I think we had just gotten to North Vietnam, and I think they must have told us. SM (01:22:04): One of the people I know that have gone, according to Daniel Berrigan went, Tom Hayden, Jane Fonda, and Herbert went and what is his name? Stan Lin went, and there were a couple others that, but I think David Hawk even went. CB (01:22:18): He probably did. There were actually a lot more trips than people realized. I was there, and then I helped organize a meeting with other women's movement people with the anti-war movement. SM (01:22:32): Yeah, Watergate? CB (01:22:34): Oh, Watergate. Watergate is probably the height of distrust of the presidency. Also, important belief that we could actually do something about it. SM (01:22:47): How about Woodstock in the summer of Love? The two different things, (19)67, the Summer of Love, and (19)69 for Woodstock. CB (01:22:55): Well, I kind of go back to what I said before. I was in the political side. It was like, "Okay, let them have their fun." SM (01:23:06): Already talked about 1968. How about just the hippies and yippies? They are two different groups. CB (01:23:13): Yeah. Well, the yippies were more explicitly political. Yes. Even though- SM (01:23:18): Theatrical. CB (01:23:19): Theatrical, and sometimes we found them. I mean, by the time they were really big, I was also already a feminist. And we found them really very male. I do not know that it was the yippies, but there was one group, I do not want to blame it on the yippies. But there was one moment that is actually a turning point in 1968 for the women's movement. When at one at the counter inaugural for Nixon, would have been (19)69, I guess. There was a big demonstration called the Counter Inaugural, and I was living in Washington at the time. Some of the guys proposed, probably jokingly, but a strategy of raping congress people's wives who voted for the war. It was one of those moments in which we said, "Do you know what you are saying?" I mean, it was like, I mean, just talk about how did Women's Movement consciousness come? Another point at which Marilyn Salzman Webb was speaking at that inaugural about women's liberation, and one of the guys yelled our, "Take her off the stage and fuck her." SM (01:24:36): Oh my God. CB (01:24:36): I mean, these were things that were being said in that period. SM (01:24:41): Wow. CB (01:24:41): I associate some of that kind of mindless sexism with some of that kind of behavior of some of those guys who thought a little too much of themselves and not of the rest of us. SM (01:24:59): I know General Raskin, was in that group, but he was not, he is a little different though. SDS, Students for Democratic Society and the Weathermen. CB (01:25:13): Well, SDS was a great organization before the Weatherman. I worked a lot with several of the presidents of SDS as a part of my liaison with the Student Christian movement. I think they were really an important organizing force. And the Weathermen were our crazies, our political crazies. They, I think, represented forgetting what Martin Luther King had tried to teach us about the fact that what you do matters, even as you are trying to make change. And I think it was a very sad ending for SDS. I understand how they got there, but I think it represented going to violence in exactly the opposite of what King had tried to teach us about. SM (01:26:12): I recommend a book that is out right now. Mark wrote the book. I do not know if you have read it. CB (01:26:16): I have got it. I have not read it yet. SM (01:26:17): You ought to read it. You talked about the sexism and that. Oh my God. And you see, this is before the Weatherman. I mean, some of the things that SDS did in terms of women is just. CB (01:26:29): Oh, there is some terrible stuff. SM (01:26:29): Nothing to be proud of. CB (01:26:29): There is some terrible stuff. SM (01:26:32): I think probably those women who easily succumbed in those days would be very embarrassed if they did that as they have gotten older. How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Young Americans for Freedom? CB (01:26:48): I thought the Vietnam Veterans Against the War was a really important group. I thought it was a breakthrough. Young Americans for Freedom, I just remember as the enemy. SM (01:27:00): They were conservative. They served against the war though. CB (01:27:06): I had forgotten that they were against the war. I guess they came later. SM (01:27:09): I had to read Lee Edwards, and he said, "This is the one forgotten story." CB (01:27:13): That is an interesting point. When I was dealing with them was before they were against the war, and I forgot that they... That is interesting. SM (01:27:19): Do you know Tom [inaudible] he wrote ... Tom is a politician from Texas, and he has got a book coming out in a couple weeks? But he wrote a book on his years as a Vietnam vet, and he was the head of the Young Americans for Freedom. CB (01:27:32): Oh, I did not realize that. SM (01:27:34): He says, "I am not sure if I am that proud that I was against the war." I have got a couple more, see how we are time-wise here. I know this tape, I got 10 minutes on the tape. CB (01:27:43): Let me just get a little bit. SM (01:27:44): Take a break then 10 minutes on the next one here and then we are done. What do you think of Jane Fonda? CB (01:27:52): I like Jane Fonda, she has her wackiness. But I think she was brave when it was important to be brave and that she cares and she is a celebrity. Sometimes celebrities go a little wacky. But I think she was a brave woman who cared and tried to do what she could. SM (01:28:15): I want to interview her, but she said no a couple of times. Then I kind of lost touch with her, now. I think she was Ted Turner at the time. I was trying to get ahold of her. But she does not talk a whole lot about it anymore. CB (01:28:27): No, I think she got burned. I think she got burned by how badly they vilified her. SM (01:28:32): Yeah, some Vietnam vets say that she has not really answered. Anyways. Tom Hayden? CB (01:28:39): Oh, I have more mixed feelings about Tom Hayden. I think he is brilliant. I think he did a lot of great stuff. I think he was a sexist pig, I had a really hard time with him. I thought his attitudes toward women were very bad, but I also think that he was an important thinker about these issues. SM (01:28:58): How about Timothy Leary? CB (01:29:00): Drugs Leary? SM (01:29:02): Good old Leary. Part of his ashes are up in space right now. CB (01:29:08): I was never very big in the drug culture. So yeah, it was kind of like, "Okay. Yeah, it is not a big part." SM (01:29:15): I never understood it how a PhD, and a distinguished one, would go in that direction. I never quite understood it. Some of the others would be the Black Panthers. Just your thoughts on them as a group? But also, on individually, the Huey Newtons, the Bobby Seals, the Elders Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Stokley Carmichael, H. Rap Brown. They are all unique personalities within the group. CB (01:29:45): I did not know any of them on a personal basis. So, my observation of them was as a political force that I admired in many ways and also felt worried about because I thought there... worried about, because I thought their stance on Black pride was really important. But I was not totally comfortable with the embracing of guns and violence, because I have always... I am not a pacifist, but I am a very strong distaste for accepting the military and the violent solutions, whether it was Weatherman or the Black Panther. And I guess I am a non-violent advocate without being quite a hundred percent pacifist, I think. So, I had problems with that part. But, we all have our struggles with the issues of separatism. And they were sort of symblomatic, really, of the kind of Black separatist mood. But I also think they did some really important things. SM (01:31:00): Dr. King and Malcolm X? CB (01:31:02): Well, King, we have already talked about. I had enormous respect for him. I also think Malcolm X was brilliant and really pointed to things that we would not see otherwise. SM (01:31:20): But Muhammad Ali? CB (01:31:24): Yeah. Also, all of them really, when you think about what they stood up for and what Muhammad Ali went through to be against the war. Remarkable. SM (01:31:36): Got stripped of his title. CB (01:31:38): Yeah. Remarkable bravery. SM (01:31:41): [inaudible] viewpoint. Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. CB (01:31:53): Well, opposite forms of the same problem. The brilliant one who was horrendous, and the stupid one who was horrendous. SM (01:32:03): I can never remember that quote he always gave about the... You know the quote he always said about anti-war activism. CB (01:32:12): Yeah. No, I mean, Nixon's cynicism in having Agnew as his vice president has only been matched by John McCain's cynicism in having Sarah Palin. SM (01:32:29): John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. CB (01:32:30): I was a big admirer of Bobby Kennedy. And I felt like he understood what it meant to try to bring change. And had he not been assassinated, I do not know what could have been different. I was a little bit less sure about Jack Kennedy. It is interesting what you said about Eleanor Roosevelt. When he was first elected, I was not yet a political activist. And it was just interesting. And I was still in high school. And as he was there, I got more and more into it because I got more and more engaged with it. (01:33:18): And certainly, as a moment of symbol of the change, I kind of had the feeling that had he lived, we would be more critical of who he was. That in a way, he got to do the best of what he could do and then he died before the worst parts would have come out. But who knows? But I was never a big kind of JFK, rah, rah, rah. I actually was much more moved by Bobby, but that may just have been the age I was at when they were both out there. SM (01:33:54): How about Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara? CB (01:33:58): Oh, God. Well, Lyndon Johnson is a tragic figure to me. I grew up in New Mexico. I knew about Lyndon Johnson from Texas. And I think that he did a lot for civil rights and believed in it and made some risks for it. But he made such blunders in the Vietnam War and his own pride, it was kind of like a Greek tragedy in some ways, that the better part of him got overtaken by his role in the other part. And what was the other one you said? Oh, McNamara. SM (01:34:36): McNamara. CB (01:34:37): Well, it is just this whole phenomenon of bright guys who let themselves get into this. I feel- SM (01:34:45): Bundy is the same. CB (01:34:48): I fear we are about to watch it again with Afghanistan, so I am not... SM (01:34:53): How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern? CB (01:34:56): Well, I did not work on their campaigns, but I think we all loved that they stood up. And that to me represented that there were some people who would stand up in the Congress and run for president and voice our views. SM (01:35:16): Hubert Humphrey and Barry Goldwater. CB (01:35:20): Oh, I think Hubert Humphrey is another tragic one like Johnson. Who somehow, and maybe because of him being with Johnson at the same period, started out really caring about things and let himself get drug into the establishment and losing his vision. And probably that is people like Hubert Humphrey in particular, even more so than Johnson, probably influenced my feeling that I never want to be a politician. Because I felt like, I want to make change from the outside. Because I see people who I think once did stand for something good. Early in my life I saw people, what became of them when they became politicians. And I thought, I do not want that. SM (01:36:14): Hubert Humphrey's unbelievable, because in (19)48, he wrote a book on civil rights and racism, which was a classic book. He was way ahead of his time on that as a white man and a white politician. Yet he knew that if he went against Johnson in (19)68, that Johnson may decide to even run again. I think the power that Johnson had over his psyche, and that if he had gone against Johnson, he probably would have won the election. He was coming close to winning it even at the end. They said another week, and he probably would have won the election. But this, not disassociating himself from the president. It killed him. He was not gung ho for the war. CB (01:36:48): No, but he did not... SM (01:36:52): And Goldwater and Buckley, the conservatives. CB (01:36:56): Well, I liked, when I was a high school student, I read Conscience of a Conservative. And I got really turned on because it was the first time I ever read good political theory. But then I realized soon after that I was on the other side of the theory that I wanted. But I always had a soft spot for the fact that I found that book really stimulating. And there were some moments when he was really good, but of course, he chose the wrong side of history overall. And that is where we leave it, with the notion of bombing Vietnam and all of that. Buckley, I guess by the time I started to read Buckley, I was more cynical about conservatives no matter what. But they are bright guys. They said things that sometimes made sense. You had to listen. SM (01:37:54): Goldwater conservatives that I have spoken to really put him up on a pedestal. And the irony is that he was the man, along with Hughes Scott from Pennsylvania, that had to walk into the White House and tell Nixon, out of here. CB (01:38:09): Oh, really? SM (01:38:10): Yeah, it was Goldwater and Hugh Scott, Mr. Pennsylvania. And when they went to the White House and had the closed-door meeting with Nixon, it was over. That was the final thing. CB (01:38:23): I had forgotten that. SM (01:38:25): Daniel and Phillip Berrigan, the Catholic priests, and Daniel Ellsberg. CB (01:38:31): Yeah. Well, these were important figures. They weren't people that I personally did any work with, but I certainly admired the Berrigan brothers' stand, and certainly Ellsberg's. These were all important people in terms of exposing what was going on. But they weren't major in my own personal development. But I certainly think of them as important markers. SM (01:39:00): Of course, Ellsberg and then Benjamin Spock, those are my last two. CB (01:39:06): Oh, Benjamin Spock. SM (01:39:09): The baby doctor. CB (01:39:10): Yeah, the baby doctor. Yeah. I do not know. That is a funny one. Yeah. SM (01:39:22): Something about, he died the same day my mom died. Actually, the day before my mom died. And I actually went to see my mom. I did not know if my mom was going to die. And said, "Benjamin Spock died. Just died." And let her know about him. Of course, he wrote the baby books, and a lot of people complained that he was the guy they were raising. But he was involved in protests, and a lot of people admired him for going out there and doing that. CB (01:39:45): Well, I do admire that part. Yeah. SM (01:39:47): You notice, I said a lot of these are men. I already talked Gloria Steinem, and Bella Abzug, and Betty Friedan. But are there any females that I did not mention that I should have mentioned here when I talk about personalities? CB (01:39:59): Angela Davis. SM (01:39:59): Yeah. Well, Angela Davis. Right. CB (01:40:03): Angela Davis was very important to all of us as a woman who stood up, and being a Black woman, and being visible in that moment. Absolutely. She was a marker for many women about women who were strong women, and in the the anti-racism struggle. There were other women that were important to me, but I am trying to think if there were women besides Angela Davis that I would put at that visible place. SM (01:40:50): Eleanor Roosevelt was alive when Boomers were alive. She died in (19)62. CB (01:40:56): Eleanor Roosevelt was certainly a symbol for women. So was Margaret Mead. In fact, I was on a committee with Margaret Mead for the World Council of Churches, and she was a very important figure in women seeing both that you could be different, and what she said about gender roles in other parts of the world. And Simone de Beauvoir, of course, not American, but certainly was somebody that... Kate Millett. SM (01:41:31): And Susan Sontag. CB (01:41:32): Susan Sontag. SM (01:41:33): Her first book is unbelievable. CB (01:41:35): Susan Sontag. And Kate Millett. Kate Millett's Sexual Politics. In terms of getting out some of those issues around sexual politics and sexuality, and rape, and violence, Kate Millett was a very important moment, her book. SM (01:41:56): When the best books are written on the Boomer generation, what do you think they will say? When I say this, some of them are being written now, but normally, the best books are 50 years after a period. We are talking the (19)60s now, we are talking, well, it is almost 50 years now, 40 years. So, 10 years from now, the best books. But I am really talking about as they pass on, what do you think the historians and sociologists will say? CB (01:42:22): About the generation as a whole? SM (01:42:24): About the generation as a whole. CB (01:42:25): Not just the part that was social activist, but the generation as a whole? SM (01:42:29): Yeah, everything. Because the question is, did the boomers shape the times or did the times shape the boomers? And some people think it was all about the events that shaped them and not so much. It is amazing how... CB (01:42:44): Yeah. Well, in terms of that, I always think it is a mixture. You do not make history unless the times are right for it to be made. But it has to happen by somebody doing it. And so, I think that we did make history as boomers. It was a change-shaping time in this country. But I think that the conditions, we talked a little bit about that earlier in terms of the prosperity and all the rest, were also present for that to happen. So to me, it is always both. When I think about my own work, I could not have made the breakthroughs I made in my work if the time was not right, things had not been happening. When we worked on women's rights as human rights we knew the fact that the Cold War had ended and the old human rights association with sort of Cold War was gone, that we could make a breakthrough. It is not that nobody else had thought about trying to do that. And the time has to be right, but somebody has to make it happen. SM (01:43:58): Are you pleased overall with boomer women and the way they have lived their lives? Because their parents, their moms, raised kids at home. And the father was off to work in the fifties and the forties. Are you pleased with the accomplishments that boomer women have made in the battle that they waged? CB (01:44:20): I think overall, yes. I think boomer women have really fought an important fight, by which I do not mean it has been all negative. I think we have also lived really interesting lives as a consequence of being the first generation to really get to try to live our lives differently as a generation. There are individual women who lived their lives differently, Margaret Mead or Eleanor Roosevelt. But to be a generation that felt permission to try to live differently has been exciting. It has been really a challenge. Sometimes hard, but it has been exciting. And, overall, I think we have had a lot of important things happen as a result of that. But has it all succeeded? No. The fact that we did not get or figure out how to get enough childcare for women so that women still feel torn between being at home and raising their kids and family and career. These issues and tensions are not solved. But I think we did what we could to say it can be different and to start that process. It will take several more generations probably to figure out how all of that works out. And hopefully, we will resist the backlashes. SM (01:45:50): Dr. King used to always say, and is his lesson to all of us, and his birthday is today, is not it? The 15th? And of course, we are celebrating on Monday. His lesson is, if you are ever going to get anything done, agitate. Agitate, agitate. I think Frederick Douglass said that too. CB (01:46:06): Yeah, I think so. SM (01:46:06): Agitate, agitate. I think that kind of thing, that is important. I am done with questions. Is there any question that I did not ask that you thought I should have asked? When I was coming to this interview? Is there something that I... CB (01:46:19): I think the only thing that I would add that I think you did not get into is that- SM (01:46:24): Got other questions here, but we do not have time. CB (01:46:26): Well, you said something about sexual liberation. And actually, I think that there is an interesting conjunction of the first phase of sexual liberation was in the (19)60s for many women. Initially, we thought it was positive, but it was actually very negative because many women felt that it became a period in which men just thought they could have access to women's bodies. And I think that actually some of that experience played very much into the women's movement and the degree to which the women's movement really was able to put forward why issues like reproductive rights, and birth control, and violence against women were so important. And so, I have not yet seen, I have not read a lot of the (19)60s books, but I actually think there is talk about the sexism of men in the (19)60s movements and the second-class status that you mentioned. But actually there is also a thread of both liberation, because women felt positive about sexual liberation, and we felt negative about it both. Because there was some degree to which we also wanted greater freedom around sexuality. But it also exposed the male hierarchy in sexuality and brought on the recognition of some of those issues. And I think over time, even the freedom around gay and lesbian liberation that came with that, I think there is something very interesting that could be looked at in terms of that. Because when people talk about sexual liberation, they do not very often talk about the difference in what men's experience of that and women's experience was. And for women, it was very complicated, the whole (19)60s sexual liberation. SM (01:48:40): Yeah. I am not sure if I mentioned this. I might have mentioned to Bettina that if I were to sit down to my mom, who loved raising me and my brother and my sister, and my dad was a really good dad, but he was always away at work. And he was there on the weekend, and the gardening and all the other stuff. But I think Sally Roesch Wagner, when I spoke to her, she said, "You never had that conversation with your mom. You do not know if she was a hundred percent fulfilled. You do not know, because what did your mom do?" Well, my mom, she went to Cazenovia College and she was an unbelievable stenographer. And she was so good at it that, before my dad married her in 1942, she ended up, when she was in college, also being the second secretary of the president of the school because she was so good at what she did. But then she gave it all up to raise the kids. She would not say she gave it up, but I never ever asked her a hundred percent. I never thought of it. And she said, "Well, that is why when you talk about the fifties, which the fifties to a white male and to a white female is totally different." And we are talking about the World War II generation. We are not talking about boomers now. CB (01:49:55): Right. SM (01:49:56): And that was a revelation, because I never had that asked. I never asked my mom that question, ever. And I wish she was alive today to be able to ask it. And it would not be offensive to my dad because my dad was open. CB (01:50:09): Right. Yeah. SM (01:50:13): But anyway, thank you very much. That was great. I am going to take a couple more pictures. CB (01:50:17): Oh, right. Okay. SM (01:50:19): And then I got to walk a couple blocks and, boy, driving out of this city will be a lot of fun. CB (01:50:23): Yeah. Unfortunately, your Friday afternoon, well, people might leave early on Friday. It might be... SM (01:50:30): This is the other book that I just bought that I think is going to be a good one. I do not know if you have seen this one, but Tom. CB (01:50:36): No, I have not seen this. SM (01:50:37): That came out six months ago. This came out this week. CB (01:50:42): Great. SM (01:50:44): So, this is more of a political one. CB (01:50:47): Good. SM (01:50:51): Yeah, I am going to definitely remember that book. CB (01:50:59): Yeah, you should order that book. Hopefully they still have it, I think Rutgers University Press. SM (01:50:59): Take this picture. I am going to actually take four pictures. CB (01:51:01): I assume I should turn on the lights. SM (01:51:03): Yeah. Do not have my record flash with me. CB (01:51:06): How do you want me? Do you want me at the computer? SM (01:51:11): Yeah, one at the computer. And then one close up. I do not know if you want to look... CB (01:51:11): You tell me. SM (01:51:12): Yeah, I will have you look. A close up here. Make it look different. [inaudible]. CB (01:51:21): [inaudible] I am in a nice little hut. SM (01:51:42): How about with all your books? CB (01:51:43): In this light, it is probably more... SM (01:51:43): [inaudible] And I got a problem, because where I live I do not order promo. CB (01:51:43): Yeah, well I do. I put things that I want to keep, but I know I am never going to use, at the end of the day. SM (01:51:43): And one close up, and that will be it. That is it. CB (01:51:43): Okay. Great. [inaudible] The interview is over. SM (01:52:39): I will email you, and as far as me trying to get ahold of Sarah or any other female leaders, or boomers, or whatever, or you think it would be good for the interview for us as I have been doing this, I am going to be talking to Sam Brown now. Because you know Sam? CB (01:53:01): I know who he is. Yeah. SM (01:53:03): Yeah. Well, because David thinks I ought to talk to him because I did not realize they were so close to Senator McCarthy. CB (01:53:11): Oh, right. SM (01:53:12): They went to the, I went to the funeral too, but I was not as close as they were. CB (01:53:18): Heather Booth, do you know Heather Booth's name? SM (01:53:18): No. CB (01:53:27): The wife of Paul Booth, who was one of the SDS presidents at one point. SM (01:53:31): Is he still alive or? CB (01:53:32): I do not know about him. But Heather Booth was his wife and she was very active in Women with Liberation. And she went on to found something called the Midwest Academy. She is in Chicago. I think she is still there. She was very much a part of the (19)60s generation, early women's. Sarah Evan. SM (01:54:02): I know the one person I have not been able to get ahold of is the one that was on city councils in Sacramento. Goldberg. Her name was Rudy Goldberg, or... CB (01:54:13): I think it was Rudy Goldberg, yeah. SM (01:54:14): I do not know how to get ahold of her. I cannot get ahold of Holly. She is on the road all the time, so. I think Patina knows her real well. But she was a student working for her. CB (01:54:27): Oh, I mean, it would be great to go to Angela Davis, and Patina also- SM (01:54:31): Yeah, I tried. She gets so many requests that she never even looks at her email. So, she has got a person that works for her, but whether she passes it on, but maybe I will share. And there is another book that came out at time. In fact, I just ordered it and I am picking it up. I paid for it. It is dealing with a permissive (19)60s. It is called, it is something to do with a permissive (19)60s. So, I will email you about that too, because I just... CB (01:54:58): And I may think of other women too and I can send you an email. [Inaudible]. SM (01:54:58): You know Ruth Rosen? CB (01:54:58): Yeah. SM (01:54:58): Trying to get a hold of her, but they say not around for a while. CB (01:54:58): That she is what for a while? SM (01:54:58): She is not there. CB (01:54:58): Yeah, she would be good too. Okay. Well, good luck on your drive back. SM (01:54:58): Yeah, I have got to drive by the university. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Charlotte Bunch Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bunch, Charlotte, 1944- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; College teachers; Women's rights; Human rights; Bunch, Charlotte, 1944--Interviews Description An account of the resource Charlotte Bunch is an author, educator, scholar and organizer in women's rights and human rights movements. She is currently a professor in the Department of Women's and Gender Studies at Rutgers University. She has written many pieces which have focused on women's and human rights in the world. Bunch has a Bachelor's degree in History and Political Science from Duke University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-01-15 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.36a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.36b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 117:12 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5aef0a6d32788bc27ada8bda1827064e.jpg 07681f522885a1b08913d6d3a1552cfb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8a2aafbcbabbb3fda9a2a838570c961f.mp3 e02039ebee5c7734eea10d0d3b306211 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-08 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Cleve Jones Language English Biographical Text Cleve Jones is the founder of the Names Project AIDS Memorial Quilt. He began his lifetime of activism in the 1970s, in part, due to his friendship with pioneer gay rights leader Harvey Milk. Jones worked as a student intern in Milk's office after his election to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors. After realizing the seriousness of AIDS, Jones created the San Francisco AIDS Foundation in 1983.  He conceived the AIDS Memorial Quilt at a candlelight memorial for the late Harvey Milk.  Since then, the AIDS Memorial Quilt became the largest community art project memorializing the lives of 80,000 Americans who died from AIDS. He has received international and national awards from AIDS and gay rights organizations, religious conferences, state, and national health associations, and the legislatures of California and several other states. Cleve Jones lives in San Francisco, where he serves as a community organizer for Unite Here, an international union representing hotel, food service, casino, and restaurant workers. He is also an author, lecturer, and activist who travels the country talking about his life, the AIDS Quilt, and gay activism since his early days as a student at San Francisco State University. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 86:20 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Public experience; Purdue University; Gay liberation movement; Vietnam War; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Racism; National Liberation Front; Saigon; Democratic Party; Assassination of Harvey Milk ; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Newt Gingrich; Sexual Freedom; AIDS; LGBT; Civil Rights Movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Equal Rights Amendment; Feminist Movement; Healing; Hippies; Baby boom generation; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305}}">Public experience; Purdue University; Gay liberation movement; Vietnam War; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Racism; National Liberation Front; Saigon; Democratic Party; Assassination of Harvey Milk ; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Newt Gingrich; Sexual Freedom; AIDS; LGBT; Civil Rights Movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Equal Rights Amendment; Feminist Movement; Healing; Hippies; Baby boom generation; Activism. Subject LCSH Human rights workers; Authors; Gay liberation movement—United States; Jones, Cleve--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Cleve Jones Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jones, Cleve ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Human rights workers; Authors; Gay liberation movement—United States; Jones, Cleve--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Cleve Jones is a human rights activist, author, and lecturer. He joined the gay liberation movement in the early 1970s and worked with one of his early mentors, Harvey Milk, a politician and LGBT activist. During the AIDS epidemic, he co-founded the San Francisco AIDS Foundation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305},"12":0}">Cleve Jones is a human rights activist, author, and lecturer. He joined the gay liberation movement in the early 1970s and worked with one of his early mentors, Harvey Milk, a politician and LGBT activist. During the AIDS epidemic, he co-founded the San Francisco AIDS Foundation. Cleve Jones is the founder of the Names Project AIDS Memorial Quilt. He began his lifetime of activism in the 1970s, in part, due to his friendship with pioneer gay rights leader Harvey Milk. Jones worked as a student intern in Milk's office after his election to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors. After realizing the seriousness of AIDS, Jones created the San Francisco AIDS Foundation in 1983. He conceived the AIDS Memorial Quilt at a candlelight memorial for the late Harvey Milk. Since then, the AIDS Memorial Quilt became the largest community art project memorializing the lives of 80,000 Americans who died from AIDS. He has received international and national awards from AIDS and gay rights organizations, religious conferences, state, and national health associations, and the legislatures of California and several other states. Cleve Jones lives in San Francisco, where he serves as a community organizer for Unite Here, an international union representing hotel, food service, casino, and restaurant workers. He is also an author, lecturer, and activist who travels the country talking about his life, the AIDS Quilt, and gay activism since his early days as a student at San Francisco State University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-08 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.70 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 86:20 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b627f0b93c60a89e01915fd579024b23.jpg 53f237a85d73da43846c712fc1a7bc96 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/70ee3688d055cc44c17ef43b1707035f.mp3 600d4541e81acb61f48296e17022f2dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-08-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Courtland Cox, 1941- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Courtland Cox spent his childhood between Trinidad and New York City. He went to Howard University and eventually became a civil rights activist. He joined a group called the Non-violent Action Group (NAG) to fight against white supremacy and segregation and then became a member of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). Throughout his years as an activist, Cox helped organized groups in order to prevent segregation from occurring in the world."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4483,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"15":"Arial"}">Courtland Cox spent his childhood between Trinidad and New York City. He went to Howard University and eventually became a civil rights activist. He joined a group called the Non-violent Action Group (NAG) to fight against white supremacy and segregation and then became a member of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). Throughout his years as an activist, Cox helped organized groups in order to prevent segregation from occurring in the world. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Trinidad; Harlem; Island Scholarships Projects; Bronx; Throggs Neck Projects; Poverty; Caribbean; Segregation; Freedom rides; Bobby Mitchell; Ernie Davis; Racial equality; Discrimination; Black colleges; Black Panther; Montgomery Bus Boycott; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Baby boom generation; Gay Power; Cultural Boundaries."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Trinidad; Harlem; Island Scholarships Projects; Bronx; Throggs Neck Projects; Poverty; Caribbean; Segregation; Freedom rides; Bobby Mitchell; Ernie Davis; Racial equality; Discrimination; Black colleges; Black Panther; Montgomery Bus Boycott; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Baby boom generation; Gay Power; Cultural Boundaries. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 142:55 Subject LCSH Political activists--United States; Cox, Courtland, 1941--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Courtland Cox Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 11 August 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two. Just hold these tapes as we go. One of the first questions I like to always ask is, how did you become- CC (00:00:16): Would it be better if we sat at a table that you could just- SM (00:00:19): Oh, no, this is fine. I sat many couches. CC (00:00:25): There is a table. Let us look at the other room. You want the lights on here or just- SM (00:00:31): Oh, no, we are fine. Yep, we are fine. Got my new glasses too, these cost me a lot of money. How did you become who you are? The first question I always ask is, what were those early years in your life when you were in elementary school and secondary school before you went off to Howard? And I always like to find out a little about where you grew up, your family, what your parents did. Who your mentors, role models were, before you ever met Bayard Rustin. CC (00:01:04): Well, I was born in the United States in Harlem, actually. And my mother had moved here from Trinidad. And when I was four years old, my mother sent my sister and myself back to Trinidad to live with my grandmother because she was a single parent in the United States, so it was very difficult. So we went back and I lived in Trinidad from the time I was four, until my grandmother died in (19)52, and came back here around 11, 12 years old. I think probably the biggest influence on me, in that period, was the emphasis on education that my family had. Even though my mother's generation did not go to college, my grandmother had nine children and probably about seven survived. And each of them, education was big for their families and many of them, and those who were ahead of me, had won at that time what they called island scholarships. Some attended Cambridge, some attended Oxford, some went to LSE, London School of Economics, others came to the United States. So probably the first big influence in my life was the huge stress for education and becoming educated. When I came back to the United States, around 12, we were moved out of Harlem into the projects in the Bronx, called Throggs Neck Projects. And at that point, I observed America from that vantage point. And so in (19)53, (19)54, America was a much different place as it dealt with the question of race. But a lot of the pathologies that we see today were present at that point. Kids were getting on drugs. There was heroin at that point, smoking marijuana. A lot of them were not going to school. There were no jobs. People overtly told them, "Why go to school? You are not going to have a good college education." So all of that was emphasized in the society very openly. They absorbed it. And as kids 15, 16, 17, by that time, their initiatives were already destroyed. But the thing for me was the background that I had from Trinidad in terms of education, in terms of emphasis, in terms of my mother's view, that kind of inoculated me from that environment. And so therefore, while all of them were dropping out of school, I was going to school, I was fit. My sister and I were probably two of the four people that continued to go to high school. But we dealt with high school anyhow. So that is before I got to Howard University. The whole emphasis on education, my upbringing in the Caribbean was probably the major influence of my life. SM (00:05:12): At what point when you were young, you could be junior high or senior high, when you're reading about the history of the United States, and you come from Trinidad and how important education is in your family, that you read the history of the United States and there was a point in time when African Americans were not allowed to read. They were punished if they were caught reading. And this is going back to even to the founding of the nation and what happened in the 1800s. CC (00:05:49): I think the discussion I had with the guys who were 15 and 16 years old, it was now I think about it, their analysis of the society and what was open to them and what was real or not real was very profound. I am now understanding a lot better. I think my discussion, because coming back to the United States was a culture shock in the sense that all the frames of reference that were here was something I did not really have. I was coming from one culture to another culture, but my understanding of the American environment really, my first impressions were really developed with talking to the young people who, at the end of the day, whether they be in jail, killed or so forth, but they understood what the discussion was. SM (00:07:05): If you were to talk about mentors and role models as you got older, obviously Bayard Rustin was one, and there were many others, Dr. King. Was there, even in your schooling here in the United States, you had your grandmother, you had your family, but was there a teacher, was there some teacher in school or some figure in the news that in the 1950s that stood out for you as a young [inaudible]? CC (00:07:36): I would say the name that comes to mind, but this was in the Caribbean, Ms. Curry. But when I came back to the United States, my mother sent me to Catholic schools to make sure that that shield was there. My sense is that when I came back, I went to a school that was, finishing the eighth grade or so, was the all black order of nuns at St. Aloysius School. I think it was the name after St. Martin De Porres. So that was my first thing. And then I went to Catholic high school. But that was a different shock because there were four blacks in the whole school. SM (00:08:39): And how many were in the school? CC (00:08:41): Probably hundreds of kids. Literally the whole school. And I think we were the first class. And by the second year of high school, I was the only black, no, I think there were two of us, but third year I was the only one. So coming from the contrast from Catholic school where you're the only black or one or two in back to the projects, the contrast was quite interesting as I remember it. SM (00:09:22): And were there any books as a young boy or young man that you read early on? Writers that inspired you? CC (00:09:35): I do not know inspired but the one that James Joyce, The Portrait. Reading that in Catholic school, that was quite, and also my sense is that the other one that impressed me was Zola's book. The title does not come to mind right away. SM (00:10:12): Émile Zola? CC (00:10:14): Émile Zola's book. We talked about the trial. But I think at that point, the whole discussions of right and wrong and good and bad, seems to me those kinds of things attracted my attention, the things that focused on that, right and wrong and good and bad and so forth. SM (00:10:43): My next question gets into the Howard years. How did you end up at Howard University? Why did you pick that school? And talking about your years in Howard, how did you become an activist for the first time? And do you remember the first time that you ever spoke up about a subject that upset you and you really became vulnerable for the first time? CC (00:11:09): My sense is that after I got out of college, no, while I was in high school, my mother's place was the place, that was the stop that everybody came to from Trinidad, my relatives. And my cousin, Erskine, had been accepted to Howard. So he was going back and forth to Howard, I think I was working in the post office and I was 18 or 19, I was making in 1958, (19)59, I was making $2 an hour plus 20 percent plus 10 percent night differentials. So I was making $2.20 an hour, which was a lot of money during that time. But I said to myself, "I really do not want to be doing this all." I was a postal clerk. It was not like I was- SM (00:12:27): This is after you graduated high school? CC (00:12:30): The year after I took the test, I became a postal clerk, which was a career for most people. And I was, after six months, I said, "Nah, there must be a better way. Must be a better way than this." And so I talked to my cousin about Howard, Erskine Arlene, because at that time Howard just gave a test entrance exam. You did not have to take SATs and all that. You had an entrance exam. So one day got on the Greyhound bus, came down to Washington, I remember it was snowing in New York, when I got to Washington it was sunny. And took the test and went back home. And short time later, they said, "Hey, you passed. You are good if you want to come." And at that point, it cost $7.50 a semester hour to go to school. And so it was like $107.50 for 15 hours, $40 room and board, $40 for food. And so I was working at post office making serious money and so I saved my postal money and came down to Howard to go to school. SM (00:14:08): And you were there four year. CC (00:14:08): Four years, that is right. SM (00:14:10): What years were those now? CC (00:14:13): I came down in (19)60 and left (19)64. SM (00:14:18): Harris Walford went there, but I think he went to law school there, did not he? CC (00:14:21): Who is this? SM (00:14:21): Harris Walford. CC (00:14:23): Walford? I do not know. I am not sure. He was a little ahead of me, I am sure. SM (00:14:28): I think he went to law school. CC (00:14:30): Law school there, right. SM (00:14:36): During those years, what was being a student at Howard during those years? CC (00:14:39): I am telling you a lot of energy. I think we started out, we did a number of things at Howard. We did the civil rights discussion. We did the newspaper. We did a Project awareness. We did a bunch. We were the energy bunnies. We started out- SM (00:15:11): Who is "we" now? CC (00:15:13): People like Stokely Carmichael, Bill Mahoney, Mike Thelwell, Ed Brown, people like that. We were at Cleve Sellers, who's now president of Voorhees. We started out in trying to, when I came here in (19)60, a number of things were in Washington. First, Glen Echo, the amusement park was segregated. The Washington Post had ads for coloreds and whites. They were huge swaths of the city that blacks could not live in. A number of stores, the better stores, blacks could not try on clothes. The police force was mainly guys from the south who could not find jobs elsewhere being put on the police force by the congressional people. The district was run hands on by the Congress of the United States. So we came into this environment and we started off by, right after the Freedom Rides and right after the whole question of the sit-ins, we started testing the kind of segregated facilities that they had in Washington. And we formed a group called the Non-Violent Action Group, which was one of the student groups that comprised SNCC, Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee. So that is how I started getting into it. Looking at the situation that was here in Washington in terms of the segregated facilities, the segregated political structure. The segregated economic structure. Not only does that mean Washington Redskins had no black players. So one of the first things I did was picketed RFK, what we call RFK Stadium now, because they had no black players on their team. SM (00:17:45): Was Bobby Mitchell the first? CC (00:17:47): Yeah, he came the year after. SM (00:17:49): From the Cleveland Browns. CC (00:17:51): He came in after. I think the first thing they were going to do was they were to get, what is his name from Syracuse who died? SM (00:17:59): Ernie Davis. CC (00:18:01): Ernie Davis, yes. But he died and then they brought in Bobby Mitchell. And the Redskins owner name is not coming to me now. What's his name? SM (00:18:16): [inaudible] CC (00:18:16): No-no-no. I am talking about why back, because the Redskins was a team of the South. Because remember, most football teams at that period in 1960 did not exist in the South. They did not go to the south till later on. Most of the teams, they had maybe 12 teams. You were talking about the Cleveland. The football was an industrial, northern industrial phenomena. Pittsburgh, Cleveland, New York, places like that. Philadelphia. So when you talk about the South and the West, they did not come until after (19)60 when you had the AFC and all these other guys coming in. So you got to remember that the Redskins were the team of the South. That is what everybody, there was no Dallas Cowboys, or there was no North Carolina Panthers or Atlanta Falcons. They did not have all that. They had the Redskins. This was their team. And so if they are broadcasting in the South they were not going to have a lot of black people on North's teams. So that was particularly important. SM (00:19:34): It is interesting because Ernie Davis, I am from Syracuse, right? So Ernie is dead from Leukemia, so sad. CC (00:19:45): He had a lot of potential. A big guy. We started with that non-violent action group. We had a group coming together, as I mentioned some of the people, Ed Brown, Cleve, Stanley Wise, Stokely, Mary Felice Lovelace, Muriel Tillinghast. We had a group of very, very bright people. SM (00:20:20): How big was the student population at that time? And were you the rare group, the ones that were really activists? CC (00:20:29): We were the rare group, the student population I could not tell you. Probably had to be, I do not know, probably at least maybe 15, 16, maybe 2000. I am not sure, but about at least that. But we were the group that we were seen. Interestingly enough, we were seen by the students as unusual. We were seen by the professors as their children of hope. So we were treated by the professors, at least certain professors, but I think a number of them, with a certain kind of, "We are behind you. We want to talk to you. We want to nurture you." And probably the lead in that was Sterling Brown. Sterling Brown, he did for us a number of things. He would come and he would lecture about the blues in our dormitory. We could get him to do it. He would come and talk. He would read his poetry. He would talk about jazz. But more importantly, for a small group of us, Butch Khan and Ed and Tom Khan, and people like that. Tom and Butch were also very key in this discussion. He would take us over at his house, open up some bourbon and talk about the voice, talk about the people that he knew. So it was not a book discussion. He is talking about friends. Because one of the things that interests me today, because when I am talking to people in SNCC, it is always a discussion about your life. It is always a discussion about memories. It is always a discussion about a number of things. My perspective is really just, these are the things I did. That is what it is. It is only when people are talking to me that there is a sense of history. And so what Sterling Brown did was took us inside the lives of the voice, about what he liked, what he liked to eat, what did he like to drink, how'd he wear his pass, what people would say about it, the whole discussion. He gave us a sense, there were people like Conrad Snow, who was a professor up there. People like Emmett Dorsey. They were all people who really said to us, "You are not radicals. You are not outside the mainstream." The message to us constantly from those professors were, "You are the hope of our future." And I think enough has not been said about a lot of those professors who, like Patricia. Patricia, she ran for mayor. Patricia Roberts Harris, she was secretary of HUD. She was also an ambassador too. And I remember in a little while, but she was also Dean of Women at Howard University. And Mary Felice Lovelace, who was going out, she and Stokely were an item for a long time. They went out. And when she would come back late from demonstrations, while it was a strict rule for the other women, Harris, "Well, you are coming in from demonstrations. All right." So they gave us space. And so I think on that side of it, we did that at Howard. While we were also viewed as a small band, people also looked at what we were doing. And I think probably Stokely had the biggest impact on this, is that he would also involve the other students, and going out to demonstrate. He would tell them that we were going in a demonstration, but there was a great party afterwards. And so to go to the party afterwards, these kids would go demonstrate. So we would swell our ranks with that. Now, I think for both Stokely and myself in particular, and Tom Khan, Tom obviously was very close to Bayard, but we also knew, coming from New York, both of us, knew about some of the discussions that were going on. So one of the things that we did, and this is really Tom Khan's brainchild, we created a thing called Project Awareness. And the same NAG people who were doing the demonstrations were the same NAG people who did the organization of the Project Awareness. And the first event was a debate between Bayard Rustin and Malcolm X on separation versus integration. SM (00:27:14): Is that the one where they are on the stage and it was taped? CC (00:27:17): Yeah. SM (00:27:18): That is a story. CC (00:27:19): Yes, it is. But it is interesting. This work in a number of ways. First of all, it revealed to us a split at Howard University. The head of the political science department, his name was Martin, Professor Martin, thought that it was unworthy to have Malcolm X at Howard University. Emmett Dorsey, who was a professor who was very strong on the African American status in the United States, shot pool down at the pool hall with the guys and so forth, embraced Malcolm and then moderated the debate. And he was the one that did that. Now, this was our first debate. Cramton Auditorium had just opened up. It held 1500 people. And you asked me how many people we had. We had 1500 people there. The place was packed to the gills, not only packed to the gills, they were people banging all night on the doors trying to get in. And Bayard did something that was very interesting. Each speaker had, I think, half an hour to present their case, and Bayard was up first, he spoke on the question of integration. Malcolm was speaking on the question of separation. Bayard spoke for 15 minutes, and he said, "You always-" CC (00:29:03): ... 15 minutes. And he said, "You always hear my point of view. I am going to give Malcolm 15 minutes of my time so that you can fully hear his." And I am telling you, Malcolm was one of the best speakers around. You could not believe... I mean, he had a profound effect. So after that first event, people looked at us even more... And the professors were even more embracing, and the students were amazed. "God, how could you do that? How could you pull that off?" The next event we had on the Project Awareness was called Whither the Negro Writer. It was moderated by Sterling Brown. We had Ossie Davis, we had John Killens. We had Jim Baldwin. And it was just, again, another fabulous thing. And we used to have little after parties for the guests. Sidney Poitier flew in, said, "I heard you guys were in town. I just thought I would come and party, hang out." I mean, it was like... So now we really think, "Wow, what is going..." And then the third thing that we had was on thermonuclear warfare with Herman Kahn from, I think it was the Hudson Institute, and Norman Thomas debating the issue of thermonuclear warfare. So now we have established not only the demonstrations about trying to go against the large society, but on the big issues of the day, we are now driving that train. And in addition to that, also, Mike Falwell, who was part of the NAG. SM (00:31:12): Group, was the editor of the newspaper, The Hilltop, which received award after award. So not only now we are part of a group that does this in terms of outside the campus, this in terms of the campus, and then Stokely and Tom Kahn were on the student council. And Tom was very smart. He says, "I do not want to be the president. I just want to be the treasurer." He ran for being the treasurer. And he understood that was where it is. So basically we had spread, we had an entity, an organizing entity that functioned both inside and outside the campus that had a profound effect on what was going on. And the other thing was that we were probably some of the best students in the campus too. So this is, I think for even today when I talk to the people we were in school with today, they remember that, the energy we brought to the discussion. So I would say that the profound discussion at Howard to me was that. Now I think off-campus, I think probably, I would say the smartest person I had ever seen politically in terms of these things was Bayard. Because he had seen a lot of these movies. He had understood the politics. And at that point we had a lot of things with the Trotskyites and the Stalinists and all that kind of stuff. And he had been through all of that whole era, and he was able to help us sink through and deal with all of it because we had a focused message. We did not need to go into the battle of who lost Moscow and all that kind of stuff. We wanted to know what is it we were going to do here? Where were we going to go? So my sense is that, at least at Howard, through that whole Howard period, there are a number of things I found to be very important. First, I guess sense from the professors that we were Children of Hope. I think the second thing was that the energy that we were able to bring to the discussion, whether we were dealing with demonstrations or whether we were dealing with the newspaper articles, we were able to practice our craft of being very good at whatever we did. We did not lose. The whole organizing discussion, we were very good at it. The third, we were big influences of the young people who were on campus as to what was going to be their future, breaking the barriers that they had come into. And so I think in the political sense, probably Bayard was the most important. I think on the cultural historical sense; Sterling Brown was the most important. Whatever became of Sterling? CC (00:35:16): He died. SM (00:35:17): How long after? CC (00:35:20): Sterling was in his high (19)80s. Sterling was in the high (19)80s, and I assume Sterling died maybe, it seemed like 15, 20 years ago. SM (00:35:36): Okay. CC (00:35:36): Yeah. SM (00:35:38): Hey. That is a great description of your time in Howard. And the thing is, I did not know Stokely was there. I knew Ed was there. CC (00:35:47): Stokely was there. SM (00:35:48): Stokely was very- CC (00:35:50): He was very profound. And Cleve Sellers, Stanley Wise, Muriel Tillinghan. I mean, those people were very... Not only that, let me just also go one other point. In terms of SNCC. You had two kinds of views coming out of SNCC. The one is John Lewis's view about nonviolence. And his view was that this was a philosophy, a way of life. And what you were trying to do was appeal to people's better selves. The Howard people did not have that view. Howard people believed, thought that nonviolence was important because you did not have enough to be not non-violent. And that at the end of the day, that people operated out of their own interests, not out of any kind of goodness at the heart. So I think probably the thing while at Howard and the big debate, the NAG group in terms of SNCC, was from the beginning, our views were much sharper, much more political than the Nashville group with John and Diane Nash Bevel, and those others. SM (00:37:30): That is James Bevel's wife, right? CC (00:37:32): Yes. SM (00:37:32): And he died at about two years ago. CC (00:37:33): He died about two years ago. SM (00:37:35): We had him on campus twice. CC (00:37:37): Right. Yeah. Right. SM (00:37:37): And so you really met Bayard right there at Howard. CC (00:37:41): Yeah. Met Bayard at Howard. SM (00:37:42): In that debate. CC (00:37:43): He came to the debate. Yeah. SM (00:37:47): Now, how did he continue to influence the people? He came to the debate and Nelson came and they went on. You guys were with SNCC and you had your issues on campus. You were involved with many other people. Did you still stay in touch with them? CC (00:37:58): Oh yeah. SM (00:37:59): And the Congress of Racial Equality too? CC (00:38:01): Yeah, because one of the things, especially in terms of the demonstrations, I stayed with in touch with Bayard a lot, probably more than the others. But I think that he was very helpful in terms of trying to get us through the political thickets that we found ourselves, particularly in the demonstrations in Baltimore and the various kinds of people interests who wanted to come and take over. So, Bayard, I remember once we were in a big fight with some people in Baltimore, and Bayard got the national headquarters of court to make him a representative. So he came into the meeting as the National Representative Corps, and he just devastated the people who wanted to go against us. But the other big thing was, you remember also, Bayard was the organizer, I guess for the second March on Washington, second proposed March. So... That is definitely you. SM (00:39:30): Hello? Hello? How would they get my number? Bye. Amazing. I am on Facebook a lot. CC (00:39:53): Oh you are? SM (00:39:55): Yeah, I am on Facebook and I have friends, and I belong to certain organizations through Facebook. They sell your name to everything. CC (00:40:03): Well, guess what? I avoid that. SM (00:40:06): Facebook? CC (00:40:09): Yeah. SM (00:40:09): I am starting to see the dangers of it. Definitely seeing the dangers of it. Now, I will get back here. Amazing that they got up. They should have my home phone. They should not be having my cell phone number. CC (00:40:22): Well, that is easy to get. SM (00:40:23): Yeah. One of the things, you worked on the March on Washington. CC (00:40:30): Right. Yeah. SM (00:40:31): And you were the- CC (00:40:32): Representative of SNCC. And let me say to you that I am not sure SNCC would have been represented at the march in Washington, unless it was reason I argued for it. And I argued because my trust with Bayard. The people in SNCC were not at the initial points just ready for it, because you have got to remember, there were a number of competing interests in March and Washington, Dick Gregory and others had a view of something much more radical in terms and much more disruptive. And Bayard had something in a much more organized, much more important in terms of that. So SNCC people were torn in this discussion. And because of by my trust in Bayard, I was able to convince the SNCC people to participate. And their view was, since you want to do it, you go represent us. And that was that. So that is how we got into it. Now, I think it was an important for us to be there historically, as history has proven it was an important event. And to see Bayard having to maneuver where those guys, Roy Wilkins and the rest, I mean, he did have the protection of A. Phillip Randolph. Nobody was going to separate him from me, because as you remember, that time, the whole question... There are two issues that are much different now at this point than they were at that time. The question of homosexuality, that was just death. And the second was the question of communism and did you ever, or whatever. And Bayard had both of those on him. And so his ability to maneuver his organizational skills in terms of pulling that off under that kind of weight, political weight, because absent A. Philip Randolph, these guys would have never given Bayard the time of day if they could not deal with Randolph. And Randolph was going to have this march, especially after what happened in (19)41. SM (00:43:18): I read about how you were involved with changing John Lewis's speech, and I was reading in another interview that it was happening as the event was happening. CC (00:43:29): Yes, yes. Oh, there's a picture up there that showed we were doing it. One of those pictures we were back at the Lincoln Memorial- SM (00:43:39): Oh, that is that picture there? CC (00:43:39): Yes. Yeah. SM (00:43:39): Oh my God. CC (00:43:39): Yeah. That is what we are doing. I basically, as I said, I was representing the march of SNCC. And John's speech came out the day before, they sent the speech, then I distributed- SM (00:43:58): How come you did not give a speech? CC (00:43:58): Me? No-no. It was John's center. I do not know. SM (00:43:59): Yeah, he was picked by SNCC to be the man? CC (00:44:01): No, he was the chairman at that point. SM (00:44:02): Okay. CC (00:44:05): So John's speech was written, probably a lot of it by Julian. And I distributed it because I wanted make sure that John and SNCC did not get lost in the crowd in terms of the speeches. So I sent it out, gave it out the day before. And what happened was the Kennedy people saw it. And so they called Cardinal O'Boyle, who was a member of the March on Washington group representing the Catholic Church. And he threatened to pull out of the speak thing. And when Bayard came to us about it and asked for our support in terms of that, we told Bayard that it's all right if O'Boyle leaves. But then Bayard brought A. Philip Randolph, and A. Philip Randolph talked about how he had worked with this for 20 years and how it was important. And once he did that, then what we did was we had an old typewriter, you can see we had a portable typewriter, and Jim Foreman, John Lewis, Mildred Foreman and myself in the back of the Lincoln Memorial making the changes to the speech. SM (00:45:35): Unbelievable, the pressure. CC (00:45:35): Oh yeah. SM (00:45:35): The pressure is intense. CC (00:45:42): Oh yeah. But what it did at that point was that this country loves controversy, so basically it made John's speech much more memorable because of the controversy, because it now had something to add to it. So we published a speech at first, and we published the changed speech. Now the SNCC people did call me a sellout, John, Jim Foreman for changing the speech. But we thought that it was better to go ahead and do that. And it got much more historical recognition because of it. SM (00:46:20): That is amazing. And this is important. John Kennedy obviously had reservations about this whole thing. CC (00:46:26): Oh yes, he did. SM (00:46:28): And historically, at the time, correct me if I am wrong, the Southern Democrats, even in his run for the presidency, he was concerned about the Southern Democrats because if he became out too strong towards civil rights he might lose the Southern vote and all the other stuff. Then he becomes President of the United States. And we know the whole history of LBJ and what he did in civil rights. But from your experiences and from talking to John Lewis and Julian Bond and all the people, Bayard, was Kennedy just a pragmatic politician? And did he sincerely care about civil rights? Or was this just a pragmatic move on his part to get support? CC (00:47:13): I think that Kennedy was a smart politician, and I think he began to see the future. I do not think that Kennedy, Jack Kennedy, in any way had any strong belief in civil rights. I think he had an intellectual support of it. But in terms of if he had to choose between his intellectual kind of thing, doing good and doing well, he would choose doing well because he wanted to be president. I mean, it is an ambitious family. And so his call to Martin King was a symbolic thing that would help solidify the, at that point, the Negro vote against... Because you have to remember that Nixon had Jackie Robinson on his side, and most blacks, until (19)36, most black people were Republicans. Because remember, the Republican party was the party of Lincoln. And was only until the Depression and Roosevelt that it started turning around. And so you have people like Jackie Robinson who were Republicans who were supporting, and Jackie Robinson was a big hero. So King was a counterweight to Jackie Robinson on that side. The other thing is that I do truly think that probably the one that started to get it later on in life was Bobby Kennedy. I think that after his brother was shot, I think he became a lot more introspective. And I think only somebody who had really understood what the deal was could have given that speech the night King got killed. He's only one that you really... This was not an off the top of the head speech. This way a, I understand this. I understand this more than any of you really understand it. And I think that he understood it after his brother got killed. But before that, they were, for example, Tom Khan, Butch Khan, Stokely, and myself, we sat in his office, in Bobby Kennedy's office. And what was funny is that they decided, okay, just leave him. Wait until the building closed down and then take some wheelchairs and wheel him them out. So they knew that... And Bobby Kennedy, at the end of the day, when they had to face... They did not want to be pushed. But when they were pushed, they took the right decision in terms of sending in troops. But even at the same time, they were trying to isolate Bayard and others from Martin King because they thought they were quote, "the radical communist element." So they were doing both things at the same time. So they were very scared, both of the Southern discussion, which was centered on race, and the communist discussion, which was huge at that time. SM (00:51:06): And even Dr. King, if I remember correctly, he was at that group with Miles Horton. He was in the audience and they said, "He is a communist" for being at that. They were making comments about Dr. King. CC (00:51:24): Yeah, obviously, look, and Bayard and Martin parted ways on this issue of communism because they did not want to take the heat. And the only group that really did not care about it was SNCC. I mean, we associated with Anne Braden, we associated with Miles Horton. We went out to his place. I was in Mississippi in 1963, and a lady came up to me and she said, "I am sure glad you communists are here to help us." So she got the message about communists, communists, communists. But she said, "Well, if these guys are scared of the communists, they must be here to help us." So I just think that at the end of the day, the thing I think that SNCC did that, especially in the early days, they did two things that were very profound. Well, maybe three things. First, they broke the back of this communist discussion because they did not care and they were not old enough to be influenced by the discussion. Two, they were able to organize and stay in the communities with the people that they worked with. They did not come in and go out. And the third is that because of that, they were able to function and not be paralyzed by terrorist tactics. I think those three things, I think distinguishes SNCC in a lot of ways, especially in the period from (19)60 to (19)64. SM (00:53:22): And of course, did you go down to the South yourself during the Freedom Rights? CC (00:53:28): Yeah, yeah. No, I did not go down South for Freedom Rights, no. Stokely was there. Bill Mahoney, John Moody, a number of people from Howard, but I did not go. Dion Diamond. SM (00:53:38): Freedom Summer was a special year. CC (00:53:43): It was (19)64. Yeah, yeah. SM (00:53:43): Yeah. And the Schwerner, Chaney, Goodman. Boy, that must be- CC (00:53:45): Yeah, that was terrorism. I mean, that is basically send the message and these people, kids, would get scared. And while people were scared they were not paralyzed. And that is seems to be the key question. SM (00:54:03): I have a question here. Did you or your family personally experience racism? Do you ever remember yourself experiencing it personally? CC (00:54:15): Yeah. My sense is that at that time it was just pervasive. The messages were very clear. You never saw any people of color on TV. You got to remember that. It is just profound how... I mean for me, you never saw anybody of color. You were always told, "We could not find any qualified." You were always told that. I mean, I never went to an apartment and somebody told me, "No, you cannot rent here." That was not never the case. But it does seem to me that the ability to move within the society without barriers... I mean, I give up racists, okay. During the demonstrations and so forth, I would go to restaurants and we would be refused and that, so we knew that. I guess it is just, so we were told "We do not serve you" or "we do not serve your kind." And what's really funny, especially on Route 40, where we were demonstrating, of course remember at that point, 95 was not the major route to New York, it was Route 40. And it was only after- SM (00:55:42): We went through that route when we went to Florida. CC (00:55:45): Okay. But I remember Stokely and I, after they decided on Route 40 and so forth, to open up and desegregate the restaurants. Because frankly, we have been to hundreds of restaurants and they turned us away. So we went in to eat breakfast. And the food was god awful. And so we said to each other, is this what we have been fighting for? This is bad food. We just go back into the black community, and get some good food. We're not coming back to this food. We're not coming back to this anymore. So I just think that there were several barriers that were known and unknown by us and experienced and anticipated by us coming. And I guess the other thing is police brutality in terms of, we went down in Washington, DC, Butch Con, Ed Brown and myself. We went down to the police station to talk to them, complain to them about what we thought was police brutality. So it was an all-white station. So the desk Sergeant said to us, "Well, when you start paying my salary, you can come in here and tell me what is going on and what we should be doing." And Butch Con spoke up and said, "Well, as a matter of fact, because we citizens, we do pay your salary." The desk Sergeant reached across the thing and punched Butch in the face. SM (00:57:48): Oh my God. So did Butch sue him? CC (00:57:52): No-no-no-no. So what we did, and it was a guy named Wayne Moss, who was the union guy in town. I forgot what union it was, but so we called him. CC (00:58:03): ... in town. I forgot what Union he was with. So, we called him. And he also knew a guy at the Justice Department, who was African American, Duncan. And I think his name... I know his father's name was Todd Duncan, the musical guy. And Duncan was, I forgot, I am not sure what his first name was. So, this African-American comes in, and so we walk back in with this African-American guy whose name is Duncan. So, Duncan says, "I'd like to speak to the person who is in charge." So, they say, "Okay. Well, here is some more of these Black people coming in here, we saw them before." So, the guy says, "Well, we do not exactly know who's in charge." Just dismissive. So, what Duncan did, he ripped out his Justice Department credentials, and said, "If nobody is in charge, I am in charge." They were like flummoxed. They could not believe. Poom! They could not believe it. Then, he took over and directed these guys what they had to do or not do. So, I am just saying to you... And Julius Hobson, who used to, he was with CORE, as you know, he would call us for demonstrations all the time. So, yeah, for me, the reason I do not focus on events of discrimination, because I was always on offense, I was always trying to break the barriers down. Therefore, I never got offended because I was always on offense. So, that is my perspective on it. SM (01:00:10): I see here, just, people that are going to be reading the interviews, a lot of them do not know their history, as you well know, young people. In your own just a few words, what was SNCC, when did it start, why did it start, and what were its basic goals, and who were its leaders? And I know Bob Moses was leading... CC (01:00:37): Oh, yeah, okay. Well, SNCC, really SNCC came as a result of the need to test the law of the land that had just been established. So, you have got to remember, in 1896 this country had declared, separate but equal, the law of the land. So, that went on till about 1954 with the Brown v Board of Education. But with the Brown V Board of Education, and later with the in-Interstate Commerce Commission laws and rulings, all of it was talked about with all deliberate speed. So, for most young Black people, we saw the same thing, the status quo, and therefore, the need to challenge and to say, "If the law on our side, we want the country to act like the Lord is on our side." So, you had the sit-ins, and then you had the freedom riots. So, the sit-ins said, we are challenging the whole concept of our right to be like everybody else and that barrier to go away. The freedom riots said, we can... SM (01:02:05): Hey, you are doing fine. CC (01:02:20): Sure. SM (01:02:22): Yep, that was all right. I am sorry. CC (01:02:26): There you go. So, you have got that the freedom riot said, we have a right to travel without being treated as second class citizens, which means, you have to sit in the back of the bus, you have to give up your seat to any White person, and when you want to use facilities, the toilets and so forth, you do not go to a nasty, dirty place which is labeled "Colored", if you want to drink water, you should drink it from the best fountain. So, all those public accommodation barriers, we were challenging that whether we had a right to do what this country now said, after the 54th Supreme Court decision and other rulings said we had a right to do. So, those two events triggered SNCC. So, what happened was, Ms. Ella Baker called together a meeting at Shore University in February 1st 1960, to talk about how you coordinated all these activities. Therefore, you got Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee. And at first SNCC was a group of campus organizations. So, as I mentioned, you had the group out of Nashville with John Lewis and them, you had a group in Atlanta, the Atlanta Student Movement, you had a group up at Howard called the Non-Violent Action Group. You had groups like that, mostly on historically Black colleges. And that is how... And SNCC functioned like that, probably from 1960 to early 1962, where they were coordinated groups of campus people. Then, what began to happen was, again, some people started dropping out of school and beginning living in the communities, or had finished school, like Bob Moses, and started living in the communities. And there was a whole big debate about whether you continued public accommodations like looking at desegregating theaters, desegregating housing, desegregating lunch counters, or whether you move into the next phase, which was the political phase, deal with voting rights. At the end of the day, people in SNCC decided to go into voting rights. Therefore, with that kind of agenda, the nature of SNCC changed. So, we were no longer just campus organizations where you could, demonstrations all over the place, but you had voting rights in the most dangerous places; Mississippi, Alabama, Southwest Georgia. So, those students... And most people, we were between 17 and 22. Julian, somebody accused Julian of saying, "Well, they were 26 years old." Julian resented that. "No, I was 21, 22 years old." And that is what- SM (01:05:57): He is on my Facebook. CC (01:06:00): Yeah. So, here is a guy, here you have people, if you try to talk to them about whole groups of fear and communism and all this other baggage, no, they see right and wrong, they see people who are supposed to be voting in the United States cannot vote, they see barriers that exist. Therefore, SNCC came in at the tail end of what I characterize as the legal fight with the NAACP and people like that, brought us Brown v Board and all the issues around that, and all the stuff that King brought in terms of testing the legal things. So, my sense is that the period of beginning to either challenge the law, test the law, really came with the sit-ins and the freedom riots. Then, the political era, I would say SNCC was very much involved in that discussion. Started in (19)62 and probably ended in 2008, where the political barriers, where you no longer had poll tax and educational tests and all that stuff to be become a voter and a citizen in the United States. So, my sense is that SNCC went from a campus organization, particularly dealing with public accommodations and public accommodations issues, to moving to become a centralized organization dealing with voting, voting rights, and political organization. And probably, the two huge things that had big impact because of SNCC, at least on the voter registration side, was the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party and what it did in the challenge in (19)64, and the Lowndes County Freedom Organization. Those two, I think, had profound impact on this country. SM (01:08:21): It is interesting, Fannie Lou Hamer... I have a question that I have asked a lot of people. A lot of the reason why the women's movement abound was because of sexism that took place within the anti-war movement, which was really strong. And even, I talked to members of the gay and lesbian group, and they also said it was very prevalent in there. And Civil Rights too. So, when you look at the march on Washington in 1963, we know that Rochelle was involved and Bayard had many young mentees under him and he was delegating them, but obviously, it was not publicized in the media that much, unless you read the bio of Bayard and others. Because when you see all the people in front of the Lincoln Memorial, you see Dorothy Height standing over to the right, and you see Mahalia Jackson singing, but it is all men. CC (01:09:23): That is true. SM (01:09:23): It is all men. And- CC (01:09:24): I think, with the exception of Dorothy Height, there was nobody at the leadership level who was a woman. And she was there and probably there because of Bayard. I think that the involvement of young people... Because the other piece is that some of those guys, particularly Roy Wilkins, did not particularly embrace the involvement of young people either now. So, Roy Wilkins said, "I am not going to have you...," he told me, "I am not going to have your young people come in here and destroy everything we have worked for-for all these years. You will do it over my dead body." So, it seems to me that these guys had built themselves a structure, and were resistant to women, to young people, and other people that they were not "comfortable" with coming into that arena. SM (01:10:38): I think Whitney Young was in the same boat. CC (01:10:40): Oh, no question. He went into his thing, they would coveralls... Oh, he had a fit. He just could not understand how these young people could be so disrespectful, come into this building that Rockefeller gave them, I think on 48th Street, in coveralls. And do we care about any of that? We did not care. SM (01:11:04): The other thing is, James Farmer, who was arrested, I believe, and he was not at the march, he was the one leader that was not there, I believe- CC (01:11:13): Yeah. But I think, by that time, Farmer had given it up to what is-his-face, and he was in Black Mind, Louisiana. But he was down in- SM (01:11:19): Floyd McKissick? CC (01:11:19): Floyd McKissick, right. Yeah-yeah. SM (01:11:24): No, he was not resistant though, was he? He is- CC (01:11:27): No-no-no. I think Farmer came of the tradition much more like Bayard, being Fellowship of Reconciliation, that kind of stuff. He is much more in that kind of tradition than say Roy Wilkins or Whitney Young, and so forth. SM (01:11:47): Some of the transition you are talking about here too, which is really... I have done a lot of reading on Dr. King, and I am really looking forward to the week that is coming because it is long overdue. But one of the things that is interesting, I can remember reading Charles Silverman's book, In Black and White. I was in college, and it was just a tremendous book. And I still, I have got a first edition of it, mint condition. However, my other one's all marked up. But he talked about Thurgood Marshall and Jack Greenberg and the more gradualist approach, again, the Brown v Board of Education, which is so crucial, and then, you saw the resistance that took place right on the part of states to follow the law, and so forth. Then, you have got Dr. King coming along, which is basically, he respected Thurgood Marshall, but he was not a gradualist type of person. He was a guy-who-want-it-now kind of a person, and that is why he was doing the protest. Then, you get the next group, which is the question I want to ask is, did SNCC get into the Black Power issue because Stokely became so unbounded, and they trapped Brown- CC (01:13:01): No-no-no. SM (01:13:03): No? CC (01:13:03): No. I am going to give you a piece that I wrote. I think the Black Power discussion really came after the Atlantic City challenge. SM (01:13:21): And that is (19)64? CC (01:13:24): (19)64. I think up to 1964, the whole concept of SNCC and everybody else was that if you bring the problems out and you make it part of the conversation of the country, then people will in fact deal with it, and that, in fact, it was that your role was to make this situation known, to deal with, so that these guys who were in the centers of political, economic, cultural, and so forth, power, would do whatever they want, do the right things. One of the things leading up to the, and I will never forget this, one of the things leading up to the (19)64 summer project, I think this was (19)63, there were probably maybe 30, 35 bodies found in the Mississippi River. And it was raised with the people in New York Times, and it was about that much space. Nobody cared. SM (01:14:59): More than Emmett Till then? CC (01:15:01): Yeah. It was about 36 bodies found and it was not big news. The reason that Emmett Till was big news was because his mother decided to show the absolute brutality, and it shocked the Black community, and they reacted. And that is one of the profound things that affected me. And it affected a number of people who were in SNCC because they were just coming into their teenage years, therefore, they saw a lot of it. I think Emmett Till had a profound effect. But let us go back to this whole transition to Black power. Basically, what people realize at the Freedom Democratic Party is that even if you brought the issues and even if you played by all the rules and even if you were representing people who had been harmed all these years, the interests of the power structure did not care any of them, by the by. So, you see Ms. Hamer making a brilliant speech building sympathy, and Johnson cutting her off. You see that we have 13 votes to make a minority port, and then people, and Diggs and others betraying us and crumbling the thing. You see that in the church in Atlantic City, everybody, I am talking about Joe Raw, I am talking about Walter Luther, I am talking about Martin King, I am talking about Bayard Rustin, I am talking about everybody sided with the discussion of the Democrats must win, and therefore, the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party cannot win what they're rightfully there to do. And we are given some fig leave of two things in the balcony. Therefore, the message to the young people, we were saying, okay, you are told, all right, right and wrong if, it is wrong to discriminate, if it is wrong to do this, it is wrong to do that, and you play by the rules and you do the right things, this is supposed to happen. And we saw we were in a right/wrong game, and people were in a win/lose game. So, basically, we now saw what it meant in terms of win/lose. Therefore, people said it is no longer important to ask those who caused the problem to deal with the nature of the problem. We now have to look after ourselves. We now have to think through what we are doing. So, in Lowndes County, which was 80 percent Black, our model was this, we were not going to go and ask the sheriff to do a better job, we were not going to ask the probate judge and a tax collector and a tax assessor. Basically, the concept of the Lowndes County Freedom Organization was regime change. We were going to get rid of every officer who was there. Now, they want to argue, "Well, these people are not qualified. They are sharecroppers, and so forth." What we did was we created comic books that broke the law down, that people could see the law and understand their roles and responsibilities. We had a bunch of things that encourage people to vote. We had the Black Panther as a symbol because we understood that people, the literacy rate was not high. So, basically, we're using what the Indian, Mahatma Gandhi did and other people did, with people who do not have high literacy rates, they vote for a symbol. So, basically, we said, "Pull the lever for the Black Panther across straight party line vote, and then go home. Do not think about this, that or the other. Pull the lever for the Black Panther, and then go home." So, basically, what you had... And we wanted the Black Panther... And basically the Black Panther, the Democratic Party had a rooster as their symbol for the Right. We wanted a strong black symbol, so they got the, I think the panther is the mascot from Morris Brown, or one of those schools in Atlanta. Either Morris Brown or something like that. I think it is Morris Brown. And I think Ruth Howard brought the idea to us, and Jennifer drew it. So, it was a symbol, big, it was black, and we told people, "The whole thing is pull the lever for the Black Panther, and then go home," because basically, that is a strategy that is been tried with high [inaudible]. And our objective was regime change where our view was, if you are going to get rid of police brutality, then you need to be the sheriff. If you are going to get rid of unfair tax practices, then you need to be the sheriff. If you want the federal dollars that come into the county to work in your way, you need to run the county. So, that is basically the basis on which Stokely starts saying, "You cannot ask these people, after what we saw in Atlantic City, to keep doing for you what you need to start doing for yourself." Therefore, the Black people, which is what he would be dealing with in Lowndes County, needed to assume power. And during the Meredith March, that whole discussion was capitalized in the phrase Black Power. Now, I think that in (19)63, King said, that is why you have that money, "I have a dream that is deeply rooted in the American dream." What the younger generation was saying is, "We do not believe that that dream exists for us unless we, in fact, bring it about ourselves, and therefore we have to move for power." Now, you have got to also remember that at that point, and you said you were doing stuff on jazz and arts, and so forth, you have got to remember, and if you look into this whole discussion, at that point we were Negros, Black was a fighting word, we were considered ugly, our features were considered ugly, things that we were not beautiful were us. So, the whole discussion on Black power, at least on the cultural side, had a very profound effect in terms of how Black people saw themselves, because in this sense, in this country, because of what was going on, you had a situation where the closer you were to White, the better you were off, the blacker you were... So, the whole thing about if you are White, you are right, if you light, stick around, and if you're Black, get back. There was just all, just, negativity. So, my sense is that while, in terms of the White community, in terms of the White activist community, there was a sense where you are rejecting us, and on the White community in terms of the power structure, you are challenging us, you are not connected to us. In terms of the Black community, I think at least on the cultural side, it was very profound in terms of changing their sense of themselves. But also, I think, on the political side, it started bringing the Black communities to start thinking about how, within their communities, they take responsibility for their own existence. So, I think that people really do not understand, at least for me, how profound that Atlantic City thing was, because it basically said, even if you play by the rules, you cannot win. There is no such thing as right and wrong, there is only win and lose. It is a power discussion. It is a discussion of who will run and who will control. It is not about good and bad, and wrong, it is about win and lose. That was the message I got. And at 23 years old, it was very interesting to me. SM (01:25:00): I know there has been two biographies out on Fannie Lou Hamer, and that convention in (19)64 is mentioned in history books, on Johnson doing what he did, and those kinds of things. I do not think there has been an in-depth- CC (01:25:15): You are right. SM (01:25:16): ... that there has not been an in-depth concentrated, just on that convention, on that movement, on those few days. Someone needs to... I am just bringing this up. CC (01:25:29): No-no, I agree with. SM (01:25:30): Someone needs to write a book that just needs to cover what happened there, what led up to it, what happened during the days, what followed, the impact it is had on history or why history has not covered it better. And Fannie Lou Hamer has really risen- CC (01:25:54): But not only that, not only that. In addition to the Black Power discussion, that convention was responsible for the shift of the Dixie crash of the Republican Party. Basically, there is a straight line from that convention to them shifting to the Republican Party. SM (01:26:16): Wow. CC (01:26:18): So, I think this is a very big event. SM (01:26:23): Fannie Lou Hamer did not live very long, did she? I know she was overweight and she had high blood pressure and- CC (01:26:31): She was on a sharecropper, you had been beaten. Other than that, yeah, I do not think she made it to 60. SM (01:26:38): Yeah. I think, getting that same timeframe, maybe it is how the media tries to portray things, but there has always been this perception of, well, when Thurgood Marshall did the Brown... the decision came through based on his efforts at the Supreme Court, Dr. King was there to make the comment as the younger person, "Well, the gradualist approach is fine. Congratulations for doing this, but we're doing non-violent protest..." SM (01:27:03): Congratulations for doing this, but we're doing nonviolent protest and all the other things. And the Montgomery Bus Boycott was happening and then- CC (01:27:10): Yeah, but King did not volunteer. He was drafted now. SM (01:27:17): I know. But then you got the picture and the picture I am talking about, the historic picture of Dr. King with his arms crossed and Stokely's talking to him. But basically, it is a picture, it is a scene from, I do not know, they were together on some stage and I think basically, he told Dr. King, your time has passed. CC (01:27:39): Well, you know- SM (01:27:41): It was referring to Bayard Rustin. He was referring to the big four. He was, your guy's time has passed. CC (01:27:46): It's interesting. We, in 1968 and before King, and it must have been two or three months before King died, was killed. Excuse me. He did not died. I mean, well he died as a result of being shot. We had a meeting at the Pismo Hotel here with SNCC people and they wanted to know if we were going to participate in the Poor People's March. And we told him no. Said, are you going to disrupt it? No. He said, are you going to disrupt it? Because the rumors were going to disrupt it. No. Are you going to participate? No. And because we had always been competing, we had always been all this stuff with King. We had a great deal of respect for King, even though we were always in competition with him. And everybody from SNCC was there. Everybody from SCLC was there. And we said to him, you cannot ask those who press you to deal with the nature of your oppression. And King got quiet and we were told after we let got the press, because I mean he understood that the whole thing that he tried, it was going to be a big, big difference. Because King was coming. Because remember after King gave that speech in (19)63 about which everybody celebrates. King gave some hell of a speeches after that about the Vietnam War. SM (01:29:29): Oh yeah. CC (01:29:29): About poverty. It is like he never gave those speeches. Mean he understood more than most. When you read King stuff, he was a brilliant, brilliant man. And one of the things I do respect, the older I get the more respectful. Philip Randolph, Bayard, Martin King, Thurgood Marshall, I think we brought a lot of energy and we brought a lot of less fear and so forth. And that is what we should bring. Fortunately we had people like Ella Baker who helped us bring perspective, Bayard, who helped bring perspective and so forth. But that is what younger generations do. They go through barriers that people did not think they could go through. And my sense is that as you point out, there is always the transition. We are always going to the next phase. And that is not a bad thing. SM (01:30:37): I remember we had Tommy Smith on our campus, and Tommy, when he gave the Black Power fist, Harry Edwards was the graduate student. He was at Cornell too in (19)69, but Tommy and John Carlos, both of them, the perception out there and he's had to repeat it over and over again and correct people. He said, I was never a Black Panther. I was never a Black Panther that was about Black Power. And he, again, he really got upset. And he was like, now remember, if you're writing an article in the paper about this, I was never a Black Panther. I never supported the Black Panthers. I am a Black Power person. CC (01:31:19): Well, they do not care that, they just did not want them to quote you. Basically those guys point is that you embarrassed the United States in that because in the world state, because you got to remember in (19)69 and so forth, there was still that Russian United States Cold War discussion. And therefore the United States trying to portray itself as the defender of democracy. And the Russians can show to the world, particularly Africa, that this is not serious. Their salute in Mexico in (19)68 had profound international implications for the United States vis-a-vis the Cold War discussion in Africa. And that is why it seared into this country. And one of the things that now, and I guess I will do some writing at some point pretty soon, but it does seem to me that all this stuff has context. So an event that functions here has layers all over the place. And I think that salute. And so therefore the people who are writing this stuff want to say, you embarrassed us and we will say the most despicable things that we think we can say about you. And that is what it is about. SM (01:32:50): And I think Ralph Boston, he did not do the fist, but he did something comparable. He was doing the long jump. And there were many female African American athletes who did the same thing and they concentrated on those two guys. CC (01:33:06): Yeah, because remember that was the elite. See 100 and 200. That is the elite. That is the glamour piece. So therefore when you have in the competition of supremacy, use supremacy, my guys are faster than yours, our guys are stronger than yours, all that kind of stuff, boxing was all that. To get those guys and the heavyweights, those the heavyweight boxers to get those guys saying, making their statement at that time was a profound issue. If these guys were 6,000 meat runners, nobody would have cared. SM (01:33:54): George Foreman though with the- CC (01:33:56): He put the American flag. SM (01:33:56): Flag- CC (01:33:57): I mean they loved it. They loved it. SM (01:33:59): Muhammad Ali was against the war and he paid a heavy price for it. It is interesting. I was up in California and I went to the statue. I had to drive to San Jose because I wanted to see it after Tommy came to our campus. He is a great guy. CC (01:34:14): Well yeah, he was. SM (01:34:15): Ah Mike, and he is well-educated. Smart as a- CC (01:34:17): And not only that, they said in terms of running, he really has some techniques because he broke... you also have to realize that in (19)68, I remember Jim Ryan, I do not know if you remember him. SM (01:34:33): Yes, I do. CC (01:34:35): Okay. SM (01:34:35): Long distance runner. CC (01:34:35): A long distance runner, 1500 meters. And I remember I was with my wife in Montreal and remember listening to the announcer say, blacks will win the short distance races because there is no strategy involved, it is just muscle. And where talks about strategy and so forth, whites were going to dominate that. And that was the year Kipchoge Keino came up. I mean- SM (01:35:06): Since then- CC (01:35:07): Since then, I mean it is Africa, East Africa and East Africa has been dominant. If it is not Somalia, it is Kenya, so forth. Well keep going with your questions cause- SM (01:35:19): Yeah, this is a kind of general question here. I did want to mention that something that maybe you did not know the third person, the guy who finished second, Carlos was third. CC (01:35:31): Right Carlos was third. SM (01:35:32): And he died just before Tommy came to the campus. And I believe Tommy went to his funeral. I forget what country he was from, but did you know that guy supported them a hundred percent? CC (01:35:45): Oh yeah. SM (01:35:45): And Tommy said, do you want me to raise my fist too? That is not known by a lot of people, but Tommy explains it in the book. They liked that guy, the guy that finished second who was totally in support of what the athletes were doing there. And now he said, no, we have to do this and thanks, but no, do not put your fist up. CC (01:36:07): Yeah. Right. SM (01:36:09): So when you look at the boomer generation as a whole, and of course boomers are those born between (19)46 and (19)64. CC (01:36:17): Yeah (19)65. SM (01:36:17): And including all ethnic backgrounds now, all backgrounds. What are your thoughts on that generation? How important were they in the Civil Rights Movement? Because some people are saying, well, they were only 18 or 19 years old when most of the Civil Rights Movement in its heyday was the (19)50s through to maybe (19)65. And so in the boomer generation, they're only coming into, they're going to college starting in (19)65. But they were involved in Freedom Summer, they were involved in a lot of things. But what are your thoughts on this generation now, 70 million strong, that is now reaching the age of 65 this year? CC (01:36:58): One of the things that really is interesting, I think the boomer generation helped to change America. And one of the things that is not generally talked about but seen by people like myself is that the boomer generation fed off of a lot of what we did. And what surprised me, if you look at the letter that Clinton wrote to his draft ward where he talked about the Civil Rights Movement, and he did not know what the hell he was ever running. People thought that they were trying to embarrass him by putting out that letter that he wrote. They were profoundly impacted in terms of what we were trying to do. I think, also, that they opened up for people who may not have been boomers, technically, some space, for example, one of the things that you got to remember right after, let us talk about the Black Power thing discussion. Right after that, you had, and coming out of the Civil Rights Movement and literally coming out of it, you had the Cesar Chavez piece, and you're talking about some of the SNCC people going out to help Cesar Chavez. You had Mario Savio who was in fact in Mississippi. You had the whole discussion of the role of women in the movement and in the country where Casey and Mary King and those guys started a whole lot of that conversation and amplifying on it. You had, after the Black Power discussion, you had gray power where a lot of senior citizens started- SM (01:39:27): They accused. CC (01:39:29): Yeah started talking about that. You had the discussion of gay power. You had a whole sense of, so basically while the boomers may not have been old enough to be in central figures in the Civil Rights Movement, they were the megaphones that had kept, or the mechanism, that kept what the discussion was in the Civil Rights Movement reverberating in a lot of places and a lot of things that kept the society. Because what could have happened was you had a situation where you had that and then things closed up. No-no. They not only did it, but expanded in terms of the view of even stuff like [inaudible] giving him space or Richard Pryor giving him space. So my sense is, one of the things that I said about the Black Power discussion, at least in the black community, the cultural boundaries were broken in terms of poetry, in terms of music, in terms of art, all that stuff were there. And I think in terms of the boomer generation, the boundaries were broken. The kind of industrial Father Knows Best, Ozzie and Harriet- SM (01:41:12): Leave it to Beaver. CC (01:41:13): Leave It to Beaver. All of that stuff started and the (19)60s and late (19)60s and not only that, the other thing that started, and you see it right now with this little stuff you have here. You got to remember in the (19)50s coming out of Civil Rights Movement, you had two or three magazines. You had, Look, you had Life, you had Time. Those were the big dominant things. We had big dominant things. And then people started beginning to diversify. I think what the Boomer generation brought was a sense of diversity in terms of interest. You did not have to fit into a mold in order to be accepted. You did not have to look like this and act like this and be this. Because what happened, it was order in the (19)50s. What you had in the (19)60s was the breaking down of the disorder, particularly in the black community. But then that the breaking down of that order in terms of the hierarchical stuff. So now Look and Life does not exist anymore. People have a thousand magazines. I think what the boomer generation brought to this situation was diversity and the ability for America to be able to have to accept Mao's A Thousand Flowers so that black people could be this, that or the other. They did not have to be in this box. People who were gay did not have to be in that box. Women did not have to be in their place. People who are geeks are now accepted. That is another group that quote been viewed as such and such. So I am saying that I think probably the hallmark of the boomer generation and what is their ability to accept diversity. Now the other thing is that they have things that allow them to facilitate. We were talking about Facebook, we were talking about... Things are not always in the (19)50s when we were coming along in the early (19)60s, it was always from the top down. Now a lot of it comes from the bottom up because people with blogs, people with this, that and the other can communicate to each other that they do not have to watch ABC, CBS TV in order to get the impressions. There are a lot of people who were making other pressures outside of the hierarchy. So the boomer generation disintegrated the hierarchical structure that existed, that was brought to us by guess by the industrial age. SM (01:44:33): You hit it right on the target there. It is almost as if when we discussed the culture wars that we have seen since the (19)80s, (19)90s or whatever, and particularly today, it is trying to change the culture, possibly trying to get it back to the way it was. And actually I am really studying what is going on in England right now. And I think the undercurrent in England, there is a bunch of hooligans and taking advantage of things and copycats, yes. But I think this is a deep-seated problem. This has to do with as Dr. King would always say, we got to deal with the economy because it's not always, it is race, but it is also about your economic status. And I think what is happening in London today and what is happening all over England is the fact that the challenge to multiculturalism, and when I see people who start pointing fingers at the reason why we have problems is because of them. It is because it is a reaction. It is very reactionary and it is scary to me. And that is what the culture wars are. CC (01:45:49): Well I think also with the guy in Norway, his view was we are going to kill anybody who supports this kind of stuff. So that is my sense. But I think that the next phase, I think big phase we have to fight is the economic discussion. And that is going to be, a lot of it now centers on education. I think that is the next big Civil Rights fight. Where I think we have finished, my view is that we are finished with the political, the vote and so forth. We are going to have counteractions in terms of the Republicans trying to narrow the vote, trying to talk about frauds and cheating and stuff. But with Obama, there is a sense that that last barrier as President is broken. Because when I was coming up, the view of a black man being president was probably one of the for taken absurdities. Now, I think the whole question of who is able to participate in the economy, which is the issue that you talked about in England and other places, who is going to be able to participate in the economy? Do you have such a hierarchical piece where 1 percent of the highest income people all have as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent? How do you now begin to, given the diversity I just talked about and intellectual property becoming the raw materials of driving the economic engine, how do you now and particularly the sciences, how do you now deal with new literacies? How do you begin to deal with math and science? How do you now begin to think through the use of computer literacy? How do you now begin to, this is the new struggle. How do you now, the economic struggle, which has always been the struggle. Not all this other stuff is race and gender and so forth, the real core issue. Because African-Americans not here in the United States, not because white people did not like them, they were economic implements. They were in agriculture and agrarian economy. They were economic units needed for labor and therefore that is why they're here. And the issues that we have, have not reached beyond that. We have not dealt with the economic issues. And we are now given all these other layers, the legal layer, the segregation layer, the political layer. Now we now have to focus on the economic issues. SM (01:49:06): And it is interesting because this is a time when labor unions are going down. CC (01:49:10): Oh, they are going down. SM (01:49:12): And I can remember being in California before I moved back east and we were told where I worked, if you were ever to talk to anybody, a union, we would fire you. We met as a group over in Daley City just to hear someone talk to this whole group of people. And we did not know we were being spied on. CC (01:49:39): But here is the thing, labor unions are going down for two kind of reasons. Two or three reasons. But you got to remember, for example, the labor unions come out of the industrial kinds of things or government. Now Google basically what they have, you go out there and see their campus and all that. They get these kids and these young people and they create a different environment. Facebook, all this stuff where the new industries are. It is a whole different reality. So the same diversity that destroyed the look and the life and so forth is the same diversity that also mitigated the influence of the unions. Right now you and I do consulting. Right now. All I need is a computer and a cell phone and I have a laptop or I right now it is getting down to where all you need is a iPad and you can be anywhere and be your office. It is a whole different work environment. And so unions are going to have a tough time if they do not think through different models of what's going to go on. SM (01:51:10): When we are getting down there. We are going on to my next tape here in a second here. But when you look at the presidents, during the time that boomers have been alive, we are talking about Truman through Obama or basically in your lifetime, who are the presidents that, I think the word I want to use is genuine, who generally they may have passed legislation that helped people of color and African Americans. But in your studies, in your life experiences, you worked for President Clinton, but you have seen all these presidents in your life. Who are the genuine ones and who were the fakes? CC (01:51:58): In terms of the issues like- SM (01:51:59): In terms of caring about people who are having a harder time in this society? CC (01:52:07): Well, I think it is interesting. I think probably if you talk to black businessmen and people in that group of people, the president that they think was most helpful to them is Richard Nixon. Because remember Nixon was the one, remember Nixon came in after the riots, the rebellions and Nixon's statement was, what we are going to do is make all these guys entrepreneurs. And he opened up at Commerce through secretary Stands, Sue secretary Stands a minority business development agent was called OBME, Office of Business Minority Enterprise or something like that. Basically Nixon truly believed that the path to salvation was to create businesses that would do that. So he believed in that. I think the other person I think who was familiar and on the voting rights piece and so forth, I would say Johnson was on the voting rights piece. I think he was particularly helpful and he knew the passing of voter rights legislation and so forth. He knew that it would have a huge impact on the Democratic Party in terms of what would happen to it, particularly the Dixiecrats. So he put skin in the game and at the end of the day, while I disagree with him on the war and so forth, I think that on this issue mean he was very important, given as much as presidents can be important. I think the other one who had a profound impact I think was Clinton. And I think Clinton's contribution was his point was, I am going to have a cabinet that looks like America. And so therefore Clinton had somebody in a lot of positions of authority and power that they were not, including Department of Agriculture. He had Espy there, Commerce, he obviously Ron Brown. So it was no longer if you had a black, you put them at HUD. It was no longer the Weaver Pat Harris discussion. Almost any position in the thing you can have, there have only two positions I guess blacks have not really been cabinet secretaries, that is Treasury and Defense. But if somebody nominates a black person for a position, George Bush did for Secretary of State. It's no longer a big issue. So I think the three presidents that probably on the issue that, Nixon on business, Johnson on voting rights, and Clinton, on having a sense that this country needs to diversify in terms of its cabinet. One of the things that when I was at Commerce with Ron Brown, we went to a meeting, Brown called a meeting of the senior staff and they were all white males. So Ron walked in there and said, I do- CC (01:56:03): Ron walked in there and said, "I do not ever want to sit in a meeting that looks like this again." Let me tell you, bells went off. I mean they would ... But the other thing that ... And Ron was good, because I mean, he was very aggressive in terms of promoting American businesses abroad. I mean, the Republicans loved him, because he would be able to open up to Africa, to China, to wherever he went. He was that good in that sense. And he was a fighter in the sense that when Gingrich and them wanted to downsize the commerce, housing, and get rid of education, he fought them tooth and nail. Cisneros gave in, but Ron fought them tooth and nail. And all these guys who were SESs, the top of the food chain who had no respect for Black people before Ron came in, grew to love Ron because he saved their jobs. SM (01:57:16): Wow. CC (01:57:17): So my sense is, I think that the three presidents, I would say Lyndon Johnson, Nixon, and Clinton, those were the three. SM (01:57:31): You talked about the (19)64 convention, but how about the (19)68 convention? Because the one in Chicago that was on TV- CC (01:57:39): Oh, the Vietnam allotment. SM (01:57:40): Yeah, and the year 1968, the loss of- CC (01:57:44): Was quite a year. But I think that year spoke a lot to diversifying. I mean, you began to see the coming apart. I mean, when I listened to Pat Buchanan, I do not know if you ever see him on Morning Joe and stuff like that. SM (01:58:04): No. CC (01:58:05): I mean, they want to go back to the (19)50s. I mean, basically (19)68 was the continuation of creating diversity, creating a sense of, we all need ... Now, I mean, because we do not need to be a Vietnam. We do not want to be drafted to fight wars that we do not want to fight. Ultimately now what they have done is gotten rid of the draft and mechanized now with drones, and now the people who are poor are fighting. So, I mean, I am not sure the outcomes of (19)68 what everybody wanted it, so they ended the draft. But now people are now forced who are poor. They got no place else to do. But God, when you look at all those deaths, notices, they're either from towns, not in the big cities, and they're all poor people. They are all poor people. And now you also got a lot more mercenaries. I mean, that is, I think what- SM (01:59:13): I only got about four more questions here. CC (01:59:17): Okay, because I got 10 more minutes. SM (01:59:18): Okay. I am trying to remember. It was the (19)68 convention. Oh, my God, I am forgetting what I was going to ask. Had to do with the ... Oh, the psyche. The boomer generation was made up of 70 million people. CC (01:59:34): Right. SM (01:59:37): And that year was unbelievable in so many ways. It was so tragic. And what happens is when you look at the (19)60s and the (19)70s and the boomer generation, they talk about that really 95 percent were really uninvolved in anything and they were going on with their daily lives and everything. CC (01:59:53): That is true. SM (01:59:56): Only 5 percent were really involved in any kind of an activism of any kind, including conservatives too, those conservatives. But I have always felt deep down inside that that year, subconsciously along with what happened in (19)63, subconsciously left a permanent mark on all. For the generation to see two major figures assassinated, to see ... The war in Vietnam was, we were supposed to be in control, and then Tet happened. We saw the conventions with politicians pointing and swearing at each other. And then there is so many worries in the city. It is just a terrible time. CC (02:00:42): No, I agree with you. See, I think it is, I mean, I would not say "a terrible year." I'd say clearly a year of transition. SM (02:00:49): Can you hold- You were [inaudible] CC (02:01:00): I think those people who say that basic 5 percent of activists, probably correct, because I think change is never brought about, it is never a mass movement. I think, however, however, just like I was saying at Howard and just like I was saying at varied people, that the people who were not activists but are more passive, tend to look at what's going on and decide who they're going to support in terms of who they will be supportive of. And I think that for a lot of people in America, they were comfortable with the changes, but were made to be afraid of them. I mean, part of the reason that you have ... And disorder is part of the reason you had Nixon. But it does seem to me that ... I think that for a lot of the boomers and for the younger ones, this was where things were going. They were being empowered. For a lot of those who were older at the time, the country was going to hell in a hand basket, and they did not know what to do. Things were moving too fast. How could this happen? So I mean, my sense is that, yeah, I mean, (19)68 was a very profound year. But I think that while it was a profound year, probably only 5 percent of the people really made it a profound year. SM (02:02:49): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and end, and what was a watershed moment? CC (02:02:57): For me, I mean, I think watershed moment, there's several watershed moments in the (19)60s. The Freedom Rides and the sit-ins were watershed moments. The Cuban Missile Crisis, watershed moment. We became aware of the threat of nuclear warfare in a way that we did not really ... I mean for me, I was in school and I was ... (19)63, a watershed moment. As I said earlier, (19)64, the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party, a watershed moment. For me also, (19)67 was a watershed moment, I mean just personally, because (19)67, I went to what was considered a war crimes tribunal convened by Bertrand Russell and Jean-Paul Sartre. SM (02:03:58): Wow. CC (02:03:58): I participated in that and understood what was going on. Obviously, as we said, (19)68 was another watershed. So there were several. I mean, the Freedom Rides and the sit-ins began to break down the old order, or challenge the old order that was broken down in (19)54. (19)62, everybody was scared shitless because of thermonuclear warfare. (19)63, how could this happen in America? I think those were the times that made a difference. SM (02:04:47): Was Kent State in there too? CC (02:04:52): I would say Kent State. I would say Jackson. I would say Jackson State, all that stuff that happened on the campus. I mean, all of it was very ... I mean, the (19)60s were very intense because, I mean, a new order was being established, and as that new order was established, you had some disorder. SM (02:05:20): Just a little question, and that is not about Black power, but about the Black Panthers. Some people say when we talk about violence, there was a weather underground. The anti-war movement was not violent because they were very frustrated. Some people say that the Black Panthers, even though they had the food program, that they were violent in their- CC (02:05:41): Right. I mean, their argument is that they were self-defense. You know, first of all, I do not know much about the Black Panthers. My sense is they were ... I think it is SNCC. I mean, I think part of the Panthers that felt the need to relate to the community that they were in and move with them to make change was probably the part that I am most sympathetic to. I think the part that felt the need to show machismo and so forth and audacity and the name-calling and so forth, while I think it was all right, I mean, I guess for young people to feel that that was doing something, the older I get, my sense is that it was not a big change. I mean, my sense is, look, the older I get, the more I understand is, that revolution really is the people who you involve in the discussion. It is not guns. I mean, guns will become a reaction, but at the end of the day, basically when you look at the history of revolution, especially our armed violence and so forth, after one side wins or the other, it is always a then what? And generally when one side wins an armed struggle, it is a continuation of the same, because the people who were excluded before are still excluded now. So my sense is that the big fight is, how do you include those who are excluded, and how you bring them into the discussion and conversation where they can find their own voice? I mean, I think that is long term. That is very tough. And so I mean, I think to the terms of question of the Panthers, to the extent that they involved themselves in the urban communities, that is probably a good thing. But I think the kind of leading with your frustration led to a certain kind of violence, and that violence was felt mostly in the Black community with the killing of each other and all that kind of retribution and foolishness. I mean- SM (02:08:42): I know in California they surrounded the capital in Sacramento. CC (02:08:46): Yeah, I saw that, but at the end of the day, that was nice and a good picture. But probably, at the end of the day, they probably shot more of their own people than they did other than that. SM (02:08:58): And then of course, something that was not related to it was the guns at Cornell University in (19)69. The organizer was Harry Edwards, and- CC (02:09:11): Yeah, I mean, but it is all theater. I mean, to me, that is all theater. It's nice. I mean, the same way I view Cornel West. He is all theater. SM (02:09:18): Two more questions, and this is a very important one because I have asked it to everybody. This was a question that we asked Senator Edmund Muskie in 1995 when we took a group of students to Washington. And they came up with a question because they had seen videos of the 1968 year as a whole. And the question was this, "Due to the divisions that were taking place in the 1960s and the early (19)70s between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who were for the war, or those who were against the war, or for the troops, against the troops, whether ... Will the boomer generation of 70 million go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healed?" And is healing even an issue here? The Vietnam Memorial was built obviously to try to heal some of the veterans and their families. It was a non-political statement. It was geared toward the vets. But even Jan Scruggs in his book, To Heal A Nation, says that he hopes it goes beyond the vets, that it plays a little part in healing the nation. Do you think it's possible to heal from these divisions? CC (02:10:27): Oh, yeah. I mean, oh, yeah. My sense is this. I mean, I am going to go back to what I said earlier. The Civil War, you had two sides. I mean, you had the industrial north conquering the agrarian south and replacing one economic system with the other, and people were locked in, and the whole bunch of stuff that happened where the north brought the Black community in to solidify their power. I mean, so they never got over it. I mean, I am not sure they are over it yet. But I think in terms of the generation, the boomer generation, if you can isolate them out and the people who were activists and so forth, I do not have a sense that ... I mean, I think, as I said earlier, that what the boomer generation is going to be noted for is that it created space for many. And so therefore, the creating of space for Blacks, [inaudible] for gays, women, this, that, the other, I mean, people have this space. I mean, it was not necessarily ... The boomer generation did not so much create. There was a lot of conflict, but it was not a zero-sum game, which the Civil War was. I win, you lose. The boomer generation, I think, created a possibility where you had multiple winners, and I think that is ... I mean, I may hear, some would say, "Well, people thought before Black power was the good part of the civil rights movement and after that was the bad part." Or, women and men, I do not see them going after each other. I mean, I do not see gays and straights. I mean, I do not see ... I think, well, let us take for the gay community. I mean, you now have in several places. You are not going to have it in Alabama anytime soon, or some places there. But at least Perry, even in his ignorance, had to say, "Well, if the people in New York want it, let them have it." And my sense is that space is being created. I mean, even those who say, "Well, there's no place in the United States for this kind of activity," they're not the dominant discussion. People view as, "Hey, if the people in the state want to ..." I mean, and so forth. Or while he had this whole thing about Obama, whether he is legitimate, whether he was born in the United States, now he's being treated like every other president. Why are not you saving me, you dumb son of a bitch? I am just saying to you that, I mean, I do not think that the boomer generation and the actions that were going on and that created a zero-sum game. They created more space for more people, and therefore the diversity allowed various people in various ways to coexist. I mean, I do not have that view. SM (02:14:32): My last question deals a little bit about legacy. If you could put it in just a nutshell here, how did your experiences at Howard, your experiences with SNCC, even your relationship with Mr. Rustin and CORE, the experience of being one of the main young leaders of the March on Washington in 1963, how have these played a part in your life post-(19)60s and (19)70s? Because I know that you have been involved in many leadership roles. You still are. CC (02:15:15): Right. SM (02:15:15): I have read your background and one thing that always sticks out is that you seem to be a person that always wants to help people who really need help. CC (02:15:29): Well, if I- SM (02:15:30): You stand out there. CC (02:15:31): Yeah. Well, my sense is this. Here is my view. I think my worldview has been defined by the things that you talked about, and it was interesting. I was active for a long time and then I was not active, and now I am beginning to think about these issues again. And it seems to me that my view at 22, 23 is still my view today, my worldview today. I am surprised at ... I mean, I have refined it in terms of historical context, influence of more information. But my sense is that, you try to work with the people who have problems and get them to have their own voice about what is to be done. I am now more convinced ... Probably the big change, I mean, I am more convinced that probably if you want revolution, nonviolence is important in that in the sense that it is not important ... I mean, you do not make change by shooting the people who are in power. You make change by making sure that those who are powerless are empowered. I mean, I think that is the big thing in my mind. I also think that time and energy is more important than money. I also think that it is also important to be an actor and not a reactor. I think that change and diversity are important, and even if that the world is much better being diverse than it is being one color, or being Black and white in the sense that ... So, I mean, those are the things that ... I also think that war has no use, because basically it's fought for the interest of the economically powerful, and poor people are the ones who fight the wars, die, and get nothing from it. Those are the things that ... I have not changed my views on any of that. SM (02:18:13): Those are prophetic. You have made some very prophetic things, that you need to put these into a book. CC (02:18:24): Thank you. SM (02:18:26): Because I think that good young scholars and students and... CC (02:18:29): Yeah. No, I am going to start writing. I mean, people have said I need to start writing and I need to start doing that. I mean, I am going to probably just do ... I will get there. I will get there. SM (02:18:48): I guess the last thing is, I think you have already said it, what do you think your lasting legacy is when people ... You are going to live another 50 years, right? CC (02:18:58): Right, whatever. SM (02:18:59): Well, what will people say when they think of Courtland? And secondly, the legacy of the civil rights movement and the legacy of the boomer generation, because they are in [inaudible] CC (02:19:11): I think the legacy of the civil rights movement is that it broke down barriers that were assumed in the United States. That is going to be the importance of that, the racial barriers. I think the second part of that is that it empowered the boomer generation in terms of music, in terms of lifestyle, in terms of various kinds of things. I mean, it was the inspiration for the boomer generation. I think for the boomer generation, as I said earlier, it created space and diversity for Americans to live in, and they did not have to be in Black and white. They could be in whatever colors they wanted to be. I do not know if you saw that movie where it was Black and white, and I mean, the diversity gave the sense of life and explored it. I mean, and I think that it also brought technologies into the conversation that helped give power to more and more people. I am talking about communications or whatever. I mean, just both with the computer and the cell phone. They made a huge difference. And in terms of, I mean, I do not disagree with what King said the night before he was killed, "Tell them I tried to help somebody." I mean, do not tell them this, that, because material things at the end of the day, I mean, as you know, I am not a person who believes in poverty. I would let you know that right away. But I do not believe that it is what it's about. I believe that working to help people and to broaden the base of democracy is probably the important thing. SM (02:21:33): Is there any final comments you want to state, or- CC (02:21:35): No-no, I am good. SM (02:21:37): Any questions you thought I was going to ask? Or- CC (02:21:40): No-no. I got to get out of here. SM (02:21:41): I got to take three or four more pictures of you. CC (02:21:43): Okay. Okay. SM (02:21:44): I guess we will do it this way. CC (02:21:45): Okay. SM (02:21:47): I guess with your glasses off. CC (02:21:50): Okay. All righty. SM (02:21:52): Okay. Reset one. CC (02:21:53): Mm-hmm. SM (02:21:57): Reset two. And that picture in the background looks great. There we go. Ready, set, three. And last but not least, I will do one with grip here. Ready, set, four. That is it. CC (02:22:16): Okay, good. SM (02:22:17): Good. CC (02:22:18): All right. You got a cab up here? SM (02:22:20): No, I drove my car. CC (02:22:21): Oh, you drove here. SM (02:22:22): Yeah. CC (02:22:22): I did not see a car. SM (02:22:23): Yeah. I will just take this in the next room. CC (02:22:29): Okay. SM (02:22:29): Thank you very much for spending the time with me. CC (02:22:33): No problem. I have a 6:30 appointment downtown. SM (02:22:35): Oh, whoa. CC (02:22:38): Yeah, I told them that. SM (02:22:38): Let me get my stuff out of here. 30. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Courtland Cox Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cox, Courtland, 1941- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Political activists--United States; Cox, Courtland, 1941--Interviews Description An account of the resource Courtland Cox spent his childhood between Trinidad and New York City. He went to Howard University and eventually became a civil rights activist. He joined a group called the Non-violent Action Group (NAG) to fight against white supremacy and segregation and then became a member of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). Throughout his years as an activist, Cox helped organized groups in order to prevent segregation from occurring in the world. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.66a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.66b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 142:55 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/102169338e0fcc56c26bbe34953162fc.jpg 3546da3cb245068facbde3078fade021 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/72b2f597a8ce5ddc63e649e35b893e65.mp3 d04c605ba2d9f68c00f7e30882928f08 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 9/30/10 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Craig McNamara Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; College protests; Anti-war; Environmentalism; Criticism of war; Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":769,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0}">Vietnam War; College protests; Anti-war; Environmentalism; Criticism of war; Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties; Activism. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 3:01:44 Subject LCSH United States. Department of Defense. Office of the Secretary of Defense; McNamara, Robert S., 1916-2009--Interviews Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Craig McNamara is the President and owner of Sierra Orchards, a diversified farming operation producing organic walnuts and olive oil. McNamara serves as founder and president of the Center For Land Based Learning,an innovative program, which assists high school students in building greater human and social capital in their communities. He currently is the President of the California State Board of Food and Agriculture. McNamara has a Bachelor's degree in plant and Soil Science from the University of California, Davis."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15171,"3":{"1":1},"4":{"1":2,"2":11791078},"9":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":{"1":2,"2":5526612},"15":"arial, sans-serif","16":10}">Craig McNamara is the son of Robert McNamara, former Secretary of Defense during the John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Baines Johnson administrations. He is the President and owner of Sierra Orchards, a diversified farming operation producing organic walnuts and olive oil. He also serves as founder and president of the Center For Land-Based Learning, an innovative program, which assists high school students in building greater human and social capital in their communities. McNamara currently is the President of the California State Board of Food and Agriculture. He has a Bachelor's degree in Plant and Soil Science from the University of California, Davis. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Craig McNamara Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 30 September 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) CM (00:00:03): Testing one two. SM (00:00:06): Tape recorders. And of course, a lot of this is going to be about you, but it is also a lot on your dad too. You okay now? CM (00:00:15): I am ready to go. SM (00:00:16): How did you become who you are with respect to talking about your growing up years before you went off to college? What was it like going to high school and those early influences? And of course, you can talk about your dad and mom at this time too. CM (00:00:34): Are we focusing a little bit at the end of middle school and on the high school or high school? SM (00:00:40): Basically high school. CM (00:00:44): My high school was a continuation of Sidwell Friends School in Washington DC, which for me was a remarkable experience because I came from Ann Arbor, Michigan as a 10-year-old and went through the elementary school at Sidwell Friends. I came into the school system with a reading problem, with significant dyslexia problems that at that age, at that time was not really well known. It was a large kind of umbrella that covered many different parts of that learning disorder. So it was a lot of work for me. Getting to high school was a dynamic challenge. Sidwell Friends really did a remarkable job in assisting me and creating an environment that was very supportive. In ninth grade with all the excitement of sport and education and co-education, I was really in tune, and a good friend of mine had left Sidwell Friends at the end of eighth grade. And I said, "Well, where did you go, Frank?" He said, "Well, I went to this place called St. Paul's School." And what I did not realize was that he was prepared for this by his father and probably grandfather and it was the family tradition. He said, "You got to try this. You got to try this." I said, "Well, what is this?" He said, "Well, it is a prep school." I said, "I am really happy here at Sidwell Friends. Got all my friends and sports. He said, "No-no, you got to try it." So, I left Sidwell at the end of ninth grade and went to St. Paul's in Concord, New Hampshire for the remaining years of high school. It was a definite road not taken for me ever before. It was a very divergent road in my upbringing. My mom and dad had always raised us with a real foundation, I think, of social justice, of appreciation for, I am going to say the common good, the common man, for society. I did not know what I was getting into in this interesting environment that St. Paul's School provided. It was an incredibly challenging academic environment, especially for me. And it was an environment that, to be quite honest myself, I was under-prepared for and overwhelmed by. So what one normally does is learn how to compensate. My compensation was through my communication with people and my endeavors on the athletic field. So those were the areas that I really excelled in and had a very, very difficult time struggling academically there. SM (00:04:00): What years were you there? CM (00:04:02): Now that is a good question. I think that I began that school in 1965. SM (00:04:06): Okay. CM (00:04:06): And I move with the years. I was born in (19)50, so in (19)65 I would have been 15 and I graduated from St. Paul's in 1969. SM (00:04:25): What was it like growing up as your home base? Because your dad was working for President Kennedy and while your father was Secretary of Defense from (19)61 to (19)67 before he headed off to the World Bank, what was it like? In all these roles that he played, did you feel there was any pressure that your dad was a very... They called him one of the best and the brightest as David Halberstam had written in his book. Did you ever feel that when you had that visible a person as your dad who was very accomplished, that you could not meet his standards and you were trying to, or did you just want to get away to find your own identity? CM (00:05:18): You have covered a broad brush of ideas with the suggestions there, so let us look at them one by one. Pressures that a son feels from his father or a child feels from their parents, there cannot be anything more traditional than that. And so yes, of course I really have felt that throughout my life and it is a wonderful realization at certain times in your life when you realize you can appreciate what your parents have done, appreciate the leadership that they have provided in this case to their country, to their families, to their children. But yes, I felt a tremendous struggle that at times I was age-appropriately unaware of. But let me just go back to the first feelings of moving to Washington, DC. You have got to understand, I was raised in Ann Arbor, Michigan, but my whole connection was with nature from riding bikes to making dammed creeks to building tree houses to being out all day long with my mom whistling the special family whistle to let me know that dinner was ready. My life in the (19)50s and early (19)60s was one of edible connection with this dynamic force which ultimately has changed my life, which is nature and food system. So, coming me to Washington, DC was, I was an excited kid. I was 10 years old and slammed a little bit with this learning issue, but I took that instead and my mom worked night and day literally with me. I can remember both of us kind of weeping together over my inability to do homework, but we just kind of did it. But then there was the other side of Washington, which was the new frontier, the Camelot, the excitement of this incredible young president, family, and cabinet. They were called to serve. The cabinet members and their families were called to serve. I have fond memories of things that today are magical. They truly are magic moments that reflect back to your book, that I knew they were special, but I did not know how special they were. Joining President Kennedy at Camp David. Remembering being in the living room study of what seemed like a log cabin. It was a very understated building that the president at that time lived in at Camp David, and seeing him at ease in his rocking chair. Seeing him with his family. I remember attending in the White House, the first showing of PT 109. SM (00:08:32): Oh my gosh, Cliff Robertson. CM (00:08:36): Sitting on the floor and the president was on I think a chaise or some sort of, me being together with all of the Robert Kennedy family and president's family. It was an easy, wonderful relationship. And taking off from the White House Rose Garden or wherever the helicopters take off from as an 11 or 12-year-old, it was so impressionable, but it was part of life's fabric. I am trying to describe this incredible feeling. I am putting my two hands together because on one hand it was reality and another hand it was far removed from anything that I will ever live again. SM (00:09:39): What is interesting, and I can remember reading your dad's book in retrospect, in the sections where he talks about the family, which he did quite often throughout the book, and he mentioned the University of Michigan that you talked about and he wanted to live in a university environment and not in some rich suburb. CM (00:09:57): Yeah. SM (00:09:57): I thought that was, he really had his head on his shoulders and obviously it was probably very impressionable and important for him with respect to his family. And that is where you got your love for nature. CM (00:10:08): It really did. And it's teased out throughout our lives in the sense that in one respect, my dad must have been the first commuter, because Ann Arbor from Dearborn where he worked, I do not know in that day and age how many minutes it was, maybe 45 or 50 or an hour. And so he made that decision to have the intellectual capacity of living in a university town and back to my image here of nature, of living in an area that was not hyper economically oriented. And he would drive home the new models, whether it was the T-Bird or eventually the Edsel or whatever. SM (00:10:57): He drove an Edsel home, huh? CM (00:11:00): Whatever the new models was and would test drive them. And the other thing that my dad and mom always emphasized was a time for us as a family to be together, and typically being that he truly was a workaholic, it would be on a vacation in the Sierra Mountains because mom and dad grew up in the Bay Area of California and the Sierras were so important to them and to their generation. We would, as a family... Actually part of the family. Dad would be working in Michigan. Mom and my two sisters and I would head out in the summertime in the old station wagon and drive to the eastern slope of the Sierra Nevada up with their college friends and families, and we would launch a two-week trip, initially pack trip with mules in into the Sierras. These were the most wonderful experiences of my life. SM (00:12:10): Wow. CM (00:12:11): Campfires and was skating off a snowbank into a crystal clear lake and catching fish. My mom was a tremendous fisherwoman and taught me how to fish and [inaudible] fish. SM (00:12:32): She was quite accomplished too. CM (00:12:34): She was a remarkable fisherwoman. SM (00:12:37): Reading about her and her background. And she passed away in (19)81, I believe? CM (00:12:42): She did. She had mesothelioma cancer around the pleura her lungs. It was told to us that she would have an 11-month life and she lived 11 months. But she was one of the greatest sources of inspiration, I think, to my father. She was the greatest source of love and inspiration for me and our family. Just an absolutely down to earth, remarkable human being. SM (00:13:15): She was involved with an organization called Reading is Fundamental. I think your sister has been somewhat linked to that too. CM (00:13:21): Yeah. SM (00:13:22): But it is a nonprofit children's literacy organization. Was that based on the fact of your experiences with her as a young child? CM (00:13:30): I think it was three. Certainly it was the experience that she and I shared of how difficult it is for some children. Secondly, coming to the nation's capital and realizing that the literacy rate was so poor and that that was wrong. And thirdly, as my dad felt the story when meeting with President Kennedy said, "Okay," when he brought the cabinet wives together, "Your husbands are going to be under a tremendous amount of pressure and work and I want you to do something meaningful for yourselves and for society." So, it was kind of those three or four things. And I am so proud of my mom. She started this program, Reading is Fundamental, out of a mobile unit, bookmobile that would go around to schools and have school children come on board and pick out a free book, start a library in families where there were no books at home, and that has grown into a global network. It is remarkable. SM (00:14:37): Is your sister linked to that in some way? C M (00:14:40): My older sister Margie is on the board of RIF. SM (00:14:43): Okay, very good. CM (00:14:44): Yeah. SM (00:14:45): And I guess President Carter awarded her the Medal of Freedom too. CM (00:14:48): He did, which was an outstanding recognition of my mom's dedication to society. SM (00:15:04): Getting back to that time when your dad was Secretary of Defense, what memories do you have, wherever you were location-wise, about the people that David Halberstam often describes in his book, The Best and the Brightest? Your dad was part of this group. What are your memories when, and I have got about seven or eight things here that were pretty big during your dad's reign as Secretary of Defense. The inaugural speech of John Kennedy. Where were you and how did that speech influence you in any way? CM (00:15:40): Oh, I am so glad that you have brought that up and reminded me of that. That whole experience began for me when dad came home from work one day and said, "Well, what would you think of moving to Washington, DC?" Now, I was 10 years old and I said, "Well Dad, do not worry about that because we are not going to do that. I have got my friends here, we have got the tree house, we have got all of what we so enjoy." And he said, "Well, I have been asked by the president comment to be a part of his cabinet." And the rest of that story is history. Obviously, he went out and I did not. But I do remember my mom and dad had gone to Washington in preparation for the inaugural and my older sisters and I were to fly out to be part of the day that you are mentioning here. It was an icy winter ice storm as I recall, and I was the one in charge of the alarm clock to wake up my sisters. Now remember, they are teenagers and I am 10 years old and I was worried that if I were to wake them up, they're going to get really angry with me for waking them up. So I think we were a little late getting to the airport. Got to Washington, picked up by a limo. Now, this is something I had never even dreamed of, seen one, or certainly had never ridden in. This was very exciting, and I recall being in the audience, looking up at the President, looking up at the cabinet behind him on the Capitol steps, watching Robert Cross and just... SM (00:17:26): Wow. CM (00:17:27): ... being in the palm of something, of God's hands in a very, very special way. SM (00:17:35): Wow. CM (00:17:35): And then the day, I do not remember how it totally unfolded, but I do remember in the reviewing stand in front of the White House, whatever that was in 1960. I am sure it was very different then than it is today. And I think by that time it was a chilly day, very chilly but the sun shone as I recall. And I remember the cabinet coming past in their cars that were convertibles, I think, open top, and I remember my mom and dad in their car and dad had a... Remind me the name of the hat, the stovepipe hat? SM (00:18:18): Oh, Abraham Lincoln stovepipe? CM (00:18:19): Abraham Lincoln. And I recall shouting out to my dad, "Dad, you look really great out there." And then they went on. I am looking at my office wall right now because I am looking at a picture of them at one of the inaugural balls that they attended. SM (00:18:41): Wow. CM (00:18:42): And my dad in a tux and my mom and a ball gown with her gloves and everything. Quite a remarkable... SM (00:18:53): Yeah, I think President Kennedy, there is pictures of him wearing that kind of a hat too. CM (00:18:56): Oh absolutely. SM (00:18:57): Yeah. And of course that was a very cold day. You remember the president was speaking, you see the breath when he was speaking. But it was a great speech. I remember it was a cold day. CM (00:19:11): Can you hold one second? SM (00:19:12): Yes. CM (00:19:24): [speaking Spanish] I work for Harvest, so I get lots of men coming by looking for work. SM (00:19:35): A couple of the other events, and you will remember maybe dad talking about it at the table or conversing. The Bay Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis, because those are two very big events. CM (00:19:47): They are indeed. My memories of those, this wrapped into a much larger part of my life. And that is that, as you can imagine from my earlier comments, dad kept his work very separate from my life. And actually, throughout our lives, because we are talking kind of early right now, 12, 13, 14, but as I became a late teenager and all the way through my life, it was something that dad just chose not to share, not to talk about, not to engage me in. I think it was painful. I think he was trying to be protective. Was it right or wrong on his part? I do not think I can apply that sort of a rationale. Did it ultimately help me? No, it did not. But to get back to specifically your question about the Cuban Missile Crisis, I do recall that much more fervently than The Bay of Pigs. Dad would come home from work, say eight o'clock for dinner. He always sat on the same part of the couch. He would always have his hand on the coffee table to the left where the lamp was. He would typically be reading the paper. And in his hand on the coffee table was this beautiful walnut plaque. And there is some imagery here because I am a walnut grower today. This is a walnut plaque that probably measured four inches by four inches, and on top of the plaque was the most beautiful silver calendar, just a little piece of silver with the month of October, 1962, with the critical dates of the Cuban missile crisis embedded deeper in the silver calendar. And I remember my dad just kind of, his hand would be on that and it was as if it was braille, if the digits of his finger were rereading, re-recognizing the potential devastation of our world, had the United States launched their weapon. SM (00:22:28): Wow. CM (00:22:28): I have that memory emblazoned in my mind. That stayed with us forever. SM (00:22:40): Now that was a scary moment as we all watched President Kennedy on TV that night. And of course we all remember Adlai Stevenson at the United Nations. "I am going to wait for your reply until hell freezes over." I will never forget it. I am only a little older than you. A few more here. The Gulf of Tonkin in Vietnam, obviously in 1964. A lot has been written about that. Your thoughts on that, as well as the protests on college campuses that went throughout the time that he was Secretary of Defense. And of course the big one, there were two at the Pentagon and then the one in 1967 where they levitated, supposedly, the Pentagon. And in the 1965 one, which I am going to come back to later, where the man burned himself to death, just anything really linking to Vietnam. CM (00:23:42): Well, let me remind us that I was 14. 1964 [inaudible] maybe 14-year-olds today are a little more worldly and they are global understanding than I was. So those memories are more in retrospect. My reflections on those as I awaken to... My personal awakening occurred closer to 1966, (19)67 I was going to say. There again, I was in Concord, New Hampshire at St. Paul's School and one of my dear friends who was going to be the president of the school had created a teach-in about Vietnam. Now think of this. This is high school, so he was 17. This is Rick King. And he had invited professors, I believe, from the Boston area and maybe from Dartmouth to speak. And I said, "Well, now, wait a minute, Rick." At that point I still said, "There must be a reason that we are in Vietnam." And I remember standing in a phone booth. We do not have phone booths anymore, but I was standing in a phone booth from school and talking with dad. "Dad, there's going to be a teach-in. Is there any material that you can send me to justify the war in Vietnam?" And it just occurred while I am speaking with on the phone why it was that no materials arrived. I think at that point I realized there was no justification for us to be there. It did not dawn on me then, but the materials never arrived. The teach-in occurred, and that was a rite of passage for me. And I remember later on being 19, being in social events in Washington, DC in backyards with friends with houses in Georgetown and the decision-makers. I will put them in one category, decision-makers. My father and other decision-makers saying, "Well, you know, you just have not read enough about this issue. You do not really know what you're talking about." And yet we knew very intuitively and from our small world exposure that the Vietnam War was not [inaudible] SM (00:26:27): Yeah, I interviewed Dr. Henry Graff, the former professor at Columbia University, on Monday and he did the Tuesday cabinet book, the Tuesday cabinet meetings where your dad and top people on foreign policy would meet with President Johnson every Tuesday. CM (00:26:46): Yes. SM (00:26:46): And he had chances to talk to your dad four times, and he talked to him just before he was leaving in (19)67 as well. Johnson gave him full access to the cabinet, and what is interesting is when I talked to him about the gatherings of these people is that it was known early on that McGeorge Bundy, even in his book says he was against the war from the get-go way back in (19)64. And I know that Bill Moyers was against the war himself and he was only there for three years working with President Johnson. And then your dad had misgivings about the war for a long time. And I asked Dr. Graff, here you have Secretary of Defense McNamara. McGeorge Bundy was the special assistant, I forget his full title. And you had his press secretary, Bill Moyers, against the war, yet President Johnson kept going on. And Dr. Graff said, "Well, you have to understand, these men kept their differences behind closed doors and they showed that they were loyal. And that is the kind of people that President Johnson wanted around him." CM (00:28:01): Well, that is such an important point that you have brought up, loyalty, because it is something that my dad always referred to. I would ask him on those rare occasions that, particularly after the fact when he was at the World Bank and finally came out with his book, Retrospect. "Dad, why could not you have addressed it? Why could not you have spared yourself and our nation so much anguish, sorrow, and grief?" And he said several things. One is that he was an appointed cabinet minister, that he was not elected. Felt that it was his duty and his loyalty to serve the president in the best capacity that he could. And then I think that there is an evolution in people's thought processes and lives that allow them to come to grace and come to some sort of understanding, and thank God he did. I mean, I do not know many other people in his situation who have publicly and privately said, "I made a mistake and I would like us, I would like myself to learn from this mistake and maybe history can use these lessons that Earl Morris so accurately developed in Fog of War." Which by the way, I think every high school... SM (00:29:34): Well, I agree. I have a copy of it. I think it is a classic and I agree with what you say about your dad. Because one of the issues, I was in higher education for almost 30-some years, and very few people are willing to ever admit they make a mistake. And it is a sign of a true leader when they do because they become vulnerable. CM (00:29:56): Exactly. SM (00:29:56): And then they start questioning, which happened to your dad. " Why did not you do this before you left in 1967?" Here's another criticism of your dad. "Why was it that when you left," and I remember the scene, you actually can see it on YouTube where the president is... The going away ceremony, he was very emotional and he did not really say that because he did not agree with the president. I know he did not. And then some people said, "Well, he went off to Aspen to ski and he was responsible for the deaths of so many people on the wall." So, there is so many perceptions, but you are kind of like you are damned if you do or damned if you do not. CM (00:30:40): Well, I think what you say is accurate, and about his welling up and being very emotional and actually very interesting, because from that point on, he probably would never admit this but I think he suffered significantly from a- But I think he suffered significantly from a post-traumatic stress syndrome that, believe it or not, I think I suffered from, too, in the sense that the events of Vietnam were so distraught, disturbing to our nation. And personally, you mentioned the emulation, the person igniting themselves in front of the Pentagon. Those events are so dark, so traumatic. I do not think one ever recovers from them. SM (00:31:34): Right. CM (00:31:38): And you cannot control them. You cannot control when those emotions... That is a significant damage to one's psyche character. And you cannot suppress that. As good as certain people are, and my father was one of the best at compartmentalizing parts of his life, that went deep into all parts of his life. I do not think for the rest of his life, he could actually do both. SM (00:32:06): One of the things that upset so many of the boomer generation, because TV was very important, black and white television and the news, is when your dad gave those weekly reports on the numbers killed. And many believed he was lying, because those reports included dead animals and all the other things just to please the president. But what is interesting, when he wrote, in retrospect... I have two anecdotes. My very first interview, because I started this project way back in (19)96, as it said in my letter there, and I met with Senator McCarthy. And one of the questions during my meeting when Senator Eugene McCarthy was, what do you think of the new book out by Robert McNamara? I have to listen to it again to get the exact quote, but he is a little too late. CM (00:33:00): Yeah. SM (00:33:01): A little too late, and he was very upset, and he said, "Let us go on the next question". So that was his response. And then, I have pictures at the Vietnam Memorial, because I have been going to the Vietnam Memorial since 1994 for Veterans and Memorial Day to pay my respects. And in about the year that, in retrospect, came out, I will never forget it. There were two copies of... in fact, I can look it up and send it to you on the computer. There were two copies of your dad's book that had bullet holes through it. CM (00:33:34): Yeah. Yeah. SM (00:33:35): And very bad words underneath the book. So, the feelings were still there. And then, when I go to the wall many times, I do not hear it as much now, but there's three names that always come up that were the bad people. And it if it is the veterans talking, it is Jane Fonda. Who they cannot stand, for obvious reasons, and then, they mentioned your dad and Henry Kissinger. Those three. But then, if it is the anti-war people, it is not Jane Fonda, it is your dad, Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon. CM (00:34:13): Right. SM (00:34:14): And they throw a little bit of Agnew in there, but they do not say a whole lot about LBJ because of his great society. So, those are just some anecdotes I wanted to share. Why did you drop out of Stanford? CM (00:34:27): Oh, largely because of my disenfranchisement with this remarkable country that I do love tremendously. That was 1971, the winter. And I just realized that having... I mean, I personally lived very close to the man who was Secretary of Defense during the lead up of Vietnam War, that getting back to these wounds, whether you want to call it post-traumatic stress syndrome or whatever, that I needed to rediscover my country. That I needed to reinvest in my country. I needed to reinvest in myself. And the only way I could do that was somehow get a new vision of the beauty, of the strength of our people, of our country. And the way I did that was to begin a journey to South America. And I began that with a few friends. And we traveled through Central America, learning Spanish along the way. And eventually, arriving in Colombia where my two friends decided today that their journey, travel journey was over and mine was not. And I continued on that point all the way down to Tierra del Fuego. Been another year and a half on the road. And the more formidable part of that journey for me was working on [inaudible] farm. Worked with [inaudible] Indians. I worked with Chilean dairy farmers. I worked with egg growers, produce people. I have worked on fishing boats, and I was immersed in something that it completely resonated for me. It was food production. For me, it brought together two worlds that I thought were very divergent at that time. One was the political world that I had somewhat grown-up in. The other was the early world that my parents had shown me, which is that of the garden of [inaudible]. My fondest childhood memories are being with my dad and mom in the garden, with him picking a fresh tomato and putting a little salt on it, taking a big bite, the juice rolling down his cheek. My mom is picking asparagus, cutting roses to bring in to our kitchen table. So those two worlds, the early ones and the mid-ones, the land and the politics to me were married in food production. And I realized after two and a half years on the road, I had no education. I had worked a little bit, but I had no education, and that I wanted to formalize that, and went to UC Davis to study plant and soil types. Knowing in the beginning, that I wanted to come out and eventually farm. SM (00:38:07): Wow. What a story. CM (00:38:09): Well, it really [inaudible] SM (00:38:12): Were your parents worried about you being so far away? CM (00:38:15): They must have been absolutely worried, I mean, for many, many reasons. And just let me remind you, I arrived in Santiago, Chile in the early days of September 1971. And that was the anniversary of Salvador Allende being the first elected socialist president in Chile. SM (00:38:39): Wow. CM (00:38:40): And Dad, being the head of the World Bank at that time, certainly knew of the difficulties that were occurring in Chile, and probably could, in his own mind, forecast what future may... how the future may unfold. I know my mom was very worried about my well-being. Of course, there was no communication. There was... Just in terms of getting mail, with my parents sending a letter to the embassy. That was the only way I could get mail. I think I called them infrequently, maybe every six months, like that. But it is so interesting now to have children who are texting and messaging and emailing and phoning, and the degree of communication today is at different level. SM (00:39:43): You know, one of the big things that was in the news around the mid-(19)60s was the fact that Governor Rockefeller's son was, I think, down in Brazil and disappeared. CM (00:39:56): He did. I recall that. SM (00:39:56): Yeah, that was really big in the news. Of course, he was down there to help people. He was... CM (00:39:59): Well, I do not know if you saw the movie, Missing, about the coup in Chile. It is a very powerful movie. And to be quite honest, my story could have been similar to that story. SM (00:40:18): Wow. I am going to get back to your work with the farm in a couple of minutes here, but correct me if I am ever repeating anything, because I got a series of questions here. I have an order. I do a lot of thinking before I do my interviews. CM (00:40:35): I know you do. I can tell, but I am grateful and appreciate it. SM (00:40:35): Yeah. And everyone is different, and some are some general questions... CM (00:40:40): Make it fun and interesting and insightful for you and for the person you're interviewing, and potentially, for the people reading the book. SM (00:40:47): Yeah. And I want to reach students, and high school students, college students with this, as well as the general public. Because I want people to understand where people come from, and to show a little respect for people who they may agree or disagree with. I do not have a whole lot of tolerance for intolerance at times. I understand that you were against the war, but your dad ran. Did you have any major discussions with him at different times about the war, and your differences? And did he listen? Was there a major generation gap between you and your parents? And how about your two sisters and the parents? CM (00:41:29): Well, as I mentioned before, Dad, in certain ways, was a master at compartmentalizing. I think he felt in his own vision as a parent of six kids that he needed, in some way, to protect his son and his children, and he did that by not engaging in conversations. SM (00:41:51): Okay. CM (00:41:52): About Vietnam. The only time I would glean information on that front would be if I had a friend who was well versed in the topic, and that friend was trying to engage Dad in conversation, that was when I could open the window to some of his thoughts on that. And that continued throughout his life. I think, here is the bottom line, between a father and a son, we never lost love for one another. We never lost respect for one another. And I give my mom tremendous credit for being the conduit of love and communication, because that is a natural way to [inaudible] in so many families. And so many of my peers lost their relationship to their father at that time, and never healed. I have friends coming up to me and say even to my dad's dying day, we never were able to reach that point. What a sad misstep. What was the other part of your question? SM (00:43:01): Yeah. Was there any difference between how your dad dealt with you and your two sisters? CM (00:43:06): I do not think so. SM (00:43:07): Okay. CM (00:43:08): My sisters are nine and six years older than I am. Really was quite... They were well off to college and gone as I was growing up. But I know that they did not engage either on that topic. Now, let me get to the issue of did my relationship as son of my father affect his decision making? It would be very egotistical for me to say yes, and yet, I do believe that my choice of life and the direction that I have taken in life very much affected him in fact. I think the fact that my sisters and I had friends who were very involved leading the anti-war movement was insightful and [inaudible] on him. He just did not let it be known. That was the problem. SM (00:44:07): We talked about the qualities of admitting... Making mistake and the regrets and so forth. But was there ever a feeling on the part of you or your sisters, or maybe even your mom that, if you have a problem with President Johnson over a policy, just resign? CM (00:44:30): Well, I think most our reflections on that afterthought there again, just because the age that I was during the event, I would say absolutely. My father was a man of tremendous integrity. And so I think you or I of this generation would say, well, if you feel differently, then you owe it to yourself, number one to your family, and to the nation, to demonstrate agreement by resigning. And I just cannot put myself in his [inaudible] and choose and know what he felt about them. It goes back to this loyalty, which I think his generation must have at a different parameter and definition than I might. SM (00:45:27): Just in your own words, could you please, if someone were to come up to you like a high school student and you walk in and someone were to come up to you and say, who was Robert McNamara? And you would describe your father or the leader, or how would you describe him to someone or particularly a young person? And also how would you describe your mom? Because I think your mom is very important here. She is very important in history and they are a team, in my opinion. I look at this, I see a twosome that became one. That is what marriage is supposed to be about. And just so in, how would you define both of them? CM (00:46:11): Well, individually first, right? SM (00:46:13): Yes. CM (00:46:16): I would respond to the question coming from a high school student or another person about who my father was... Is a very, very bright man. And who truly loved humankind. A man who wanted the best for a globe is deeply divided. The seven years that my father spent as Secretary of Defense determined the rest of his life. Yes, he lived from 1980 to the year 2009, lived another 29 years. Well, actually, the time that he left defense in (19)78, that (19)78, (19)88, (19)98, another 40 years to his life. And during those 40 years, his true ambition for the betterment of mankind and society came forward, advanced. He was able to advance that in such a significant way. And very, very few people in the United States understand that respect. And I think that that is a tragedy, a law. He was defined by Vietnam, and yet his defining moment came during the next forty years. SM (00:48:23): I think what you just said is very important, Craig. I will let you continue here in a second. Because as a person who believes in student development and believes in human development, and we tell students in college, or hopefully they learn this, that you are constantly evolving as a human being, and it does not stop until the day you die. CM (00:48:43): Exactly. And in the case of a leader, it is our society's nature to pigeonhole them to a time of their lives, of greatness, or of tremendous loss. And he was defined. He has been defined by the latter. SM (00:49:11): How about your mom? CM (00:49:16): My mom, my dad had said, was one of God's loveliest creature. She had a sparkle in her eye. She had very, very beautiful blue eyes, which... I inherited many things from my mom. My eyes, my name Craig was her maiden name. And I am so honored have my name Craig, be in more of the Latin tradition where the mother also shares her name with the offspring. I am so happy to have the name Craig. And I am so moved and touched by her spirit and her connection to Mother Nature. She gifted that to me. It is something that you were very generous commenting on in your letter and our phone call. That is something that I have explored my whole life. And in terms of the educational program, we currently offer to students across California, it is the foundation. It is my foundation, and it is what I do, my own family. It is what I do for students in California and [inaudible]. SM (00:50:39): And you lead me right into the question is someone to ask. Who is Robert Craig McNamara? CM (00:50:51): Robert Craig McNamara is a reflection of both my parents. And a person who has been moved and affected by the history that I have lived true. So although I did not serve in Vietnam, I certainly have been very affected by it. It is a part of me every day. And my goals have been to really help make this world a better place for the individuals at this point in time. SM (00:51:54): Did you feel that when you were in that one year at Stanford and maybe your junior and senior in high school, that any of your fellow students get on you for being the son of the person who was running the Vietnam War? CM (00:52:07): Absolutely. It was always on my mind. It was always something that I had to demonstrate. Who I was myself. It was a life-altering pressure on me that I had to find out [inaudible] who I was and be that honest person to myself. And yes, I actually felt that in a certain way, that it was remarkable that people allowed me to be who I was and did not spit on, did not take offense, or become violent, because I know how frustrated I have been over our decision to go to war in Iraq. Our decision go to war today. I know the dark side of feelings against our leaders. So I can imagine how people have felt about me. That I was embodiment of my father, but I am not. SM (00:53:37): Right. CM (00:53:39): And I want to move this forward for one second. Dad, was asked to come to Berkeley... SM (00:53:46): And Craig, could you speak up just a little bit too? CM (00:53:48): Yep. Dad was asked to come to UC Berkeley, and I thought it was before the [inaudible] War, but you may help me out here. Maybe more in retrospect. And he came to Zellerbach Hall, which the largest hall in Berkeley. And he said he had never been back to Berkeley, his alma mater, in many, many years. He certainly could not come back during the four years because he would have been protested against. And I think because of his World Bank experience and other experiences, he just had not been back to campus. This was a beloved place for him too. Memories of meeting my mom and being a student at Berkeley. So, he was asked to come to Berkeley to speak on a retrospect for the [inaudible] War, and it was packed. The auditorium was absolutely packed with an audience outside. And I was very fearful for his life. And this was recently, this was within the last 10 years. And I felt very on edge in terms of reading the room, reading the audience, and if there was going to be any violent movement towards him. Which is pretty remarkable for me to feel that at this point in my life or in our life. And to be quite honest, his presence and his participation and his, at that point, transparency and honesty, I think really was received by the audience and was warmly received. They may have totally just not liked, but they appreciated the moment. SM (00:55:46): Yeah. Well I know Bobby Muller and Bobby Muller was on several panels with your dad over the last 10 years, I believe. And here's a man who came back from Vietnam, very disenchanted. And Bobby was one of the people that said when he came back, he realized that Vietnam or excuse me, that America is not always the good guy. Yet he could be on the stage with your dad. And I know he respected your dad. So that says a lot when Bobby can say really nice things about some of the things that happened to him during that time period. CM (00:56:22): This is Bobby Muller? SM (00:56:23): Yeah, Bobby Muller. CM (00:56:24): And did he serve in Vietnam? SM (00:56:26): Yeah. He was the founder of Vietnam Veterans of America. And I believe if you go into YouTube you will see your dad being interviewed by that professor. It is a show that they had and it's a tremendous interview. It is an hour and 10 minutes. CM (00:56:47): That is a great one. Do you remember the year of that? SM (00:56:50): It had to be the time that he went probably for this speech, because he talked about in retrospect, he was not there- CM (00:56:56): It was retrospect. SM (00:56:59): Yeah. It was not for [inaudible] War. I would like your comments here. I am up to this point where after Norman Morrison, a Quaker father of three, burned himself only 40 feet from your dad's window at the Pentagon on November 2nd of (19)65. Your dad states in the book, and this is very important. I knew Marge, is it Marge? CM (00:57:19): Margie. SM (00:57:20): Margie. "I knew Margie and our three children shared many of Morrison's feelings about the war, as did the wives and children of several of my cabinet colleagues. And I believed, I understood, and shared some of his thoughts." I cannot read my writing here. "This was much more Marge and I and the children should have talked about. Yet at moments like this, I often turned inward. Instead, it was a grave weakness. The episode created tension at home that only deepened as dissent and criticism of the war continued to grow." CM (00:58:10): Absolutely. Absolutely. SM (00:58:14): And that was in the mid-(19)90s when he wrote in retrospect. Or early (19)90s. CM (00:58:23): So the touching and reflection there is that he held that inside for all those years. If he could have brought that forward in a memoir earlier, I think it would have provided some healing for our nation. Not a mea culpa that is gone, but it would have... When you let something fester for 25 years, it is just insurmountable. I am proud of him for coming to that point in his life. And I wished for all of us, for me, for our nation, for the Vietnamese, for the men and women of the United States that died and served. For everybody who was touched globally by Vietnam, I wish my father had been able. SM (00:59:23): Right. Hold on one second. When you were at UC Davis back in (19)76, obviously you had not been in college since (19)69, did you notice a big difference in the types of students that were there as opposed to the ones at Stanford in (19)69? CM (00:59:49): Yes, I did. One of my thoughts... I am trying to remember this one thought that I think I felt that Davis was... I better not say that. I thought that it was very diverse ethnically, but I am a little [inaudible]. Let us not... When I came back, I was very directed at age 24. I knew going in what I wanted to achieve, what degree, and what my career goals were. So that was very well-defined for me. I must admit, my experience at Stanford was a very dynamic fighting one, but incredibly challenging because of the student activities against the war. So that permeated everything I did. I also, in the one thing I very much enjoyed about campus was just looking at a whole educational opportunity. So I immediately looked into theater, literature, just enjoyed in developing myself in things that, in academia and extracurriculars that were very dynamic for me. So that was very different. And [inaudible], I studied two years straight. SM (01:01:40): But students were probably since (19)76, they changed a lot too. They were not as activists. CM (01:01:41): And I think that is quite true. One of the things that was starting then, that was very formidable for me is that the food movement was just in its infancy when I went to Davis. So many of us who were on the edge and... Who were kind of on the edge and helped create a new vision for our food society. Were they're studying the beginnings of sustainable agriculture. We did not even have that word. And what I remind myself and others, particularly sometimes I have the opportunity to get guest lecture at Berkeley, UC Davis and other places. I remind our colleagues, our students, that these changes that we are enjoying today started 25 and 30 years ago. And so, the fact that we now have CSA Phoenix [inaudible], so now that we have farmer's markets and abundance, that we have incredible writers like Michael Fallon and visionaries like Alice Waters. It's taken us a quarter of a century to get to where we are today. And we mustn't forget that because going to take us another period upon to advance to the next phase. SM (01:03:06): How important was Earth Day to you? Because you left in (19)69 and then you were down in, well, in one of the South American countries. But were you aware of what was going on up here in 1970, on April 22? And well, how important was that to you personally? CM (01:03:25): When Vietnam was ending or what? SM (01:03:26): No, this was Earth. CM (01:03:28): Earth Day? I am sorry. SM (01:03:29): Yeah, because Gaylord Nelson was the Senator who was pushing, you worked with Dennis Haynes, but it was Gaylord, Senator Nelson that was really the leader on this. CM (01:03:39): Right. So, the first Earth Day was April of (19)70... SM (01:03:41): 1970, April 22. CM (01:03:44): Yeah, 1970. So, I was still here in this country. But very formidable. I think where I lost some of the chronology is when I was actually out of the country. Quite a, tens of thousands of miles away and many worlds apart. So, from (19)71 to (197)3, I was more immersed in South American politics society than I was in US or global. SM (01:04:18): Right. And I know that Pia Nelson, which is Gaylord's daughter. Is very big in the environmental movement in Wisconsin. I do not know if you have ever met her? CM (01:04:28): I have not, but I know of her name. SM (01:04:31): Yeah, she is. I interviewed her and of course I just had the celebration. And then Robert Kennedy Jr. I think has been very involved too. CM (01:04:38): Very involved. My experience in Washington in those early years, was a very close friendship with the Robert Kennedy family, and a lot of time spent together in Hickory Hill with the Kennedys. With Bobby and Ethel and Kathleen and Joe. Bobby at that point was just a few years younger than I was. But he is such an incredible national spokesman and leader. I so appreciate his vision and follow. SM (01:05:13): Yeah, he has left a legacy with his kids. They are all doing great things. Now I am into the section that, I know you are going to enjoy, and that is talking about Sierra Orchards and some of the work you have done since (19)76. Could you talk a little bit about your dreams when you purchased the land that you now oversee? Because from what I have read, is you did a trip around the country first. See if you can find the best spot. CM (01:05:40): That I said. SM (01:05:40): And then you came back to your home area, basically, or near your home area. CM (01:05:45): My adopted home. But I had been here, I find myself that I arrived in [inaudible] without anything. I think I had a backpack, no bicycle, no car, no living space. And set a foot to knock on doors to find, in a college town, to find a place to live. Obviously, I did and bought a used bike. And that is how I made my rounds. I became, while I was studying, I became a beekeeper. And so I would carry wood from the lumber yard out to the house and make beehives and carry on there. So the question is my vision, once I started Sierra Orchard? SM (01:06:31): Yes. CM (01:06:34): Knowing as I did, from this journey to Latin America. Working on veggie farms, getting a little bit of an education. When I realized, that the inclusion of that was that I needed several things. Ultimately a farm, and more importantly, to learn how to farm. And so when I finished up, I had a little Datsun pickup truck and a soil auger. That is the device where you drill down into the soil to see how mother nature has created this incredible living environment. The beginning of everything. I drove across the United States in a zig pattern, stopping off at farms Colorado, [inaudible], Arkansas and back east. I realized that the best environment for me would be right where I had come from. Very soiled, by the water, the markets, the population, future. And I did that. But then there was that other ingredient that I needed, which was the experience. I thank God, I met the most incredible mentor of my life Chun Laing, Chinese farmer. And he took me under his wing in a large commercial operation, and I worked with Chun and for Chun for three years. And started a produce stand, did direct marketing, grew [inaudible] melons, shipped them back east. Suffered all the ups and downs of a young farmer. And decided at the conclusion of that, that truck farming, which is vegetables, [inaudible], et cetera. Was not for me. I needed a crop that had lesser perishability, that I would have more control over in the marketplace. One harvest and walnut fit all of that criteria. So in 1980, together with the help of my father, we bought what is today, Sierra Orchards. The name comes from the fact that I stand on the edge of the field and look to the east, see those beautiful mountains, Sierra mountains. That mom and dad and sisters and my friends used to hike in when I was six years old, eight years old. So, I also realized early, in that process, that I am just a steward of this plant. That it too shall, as it has turned over in second generations, but I too will pass it on. So, my goal was to be as sustainable at food as I could be. I started off as a conventional grower, which means I used the grow seed of petrochemical based materials to insecticide or herbicide. And about 10 years into our farming operation, transitioned to organic. But I always remind myself and others, who might listen. That I do believe in organics, but I believe it is a smaller piece of a much larger, complex fabric. And that fabric, I will call sustainable agriculture. That is the direction, our nation needs to go in and our world. Agricultural food production needs to go in. SM (01:10:02): In a sense, you have taken some of the qualities that your dad had, the quality of service to one's nation, and he did it as a politician in Washington and in other capacities. And you have done it in the environment by serving, by creating healthy foods. And one thing I noticed in reading about your background, these things stand out. Producing healthy foods, sustaining the environment or respect for the environment we live in. And then of course teaching the next generation these same qualities. CM (01:10:37): Well, thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that. And that is, I would say, the substance of my life. And there was a motto that many of us have grown up with, and that is 'those who have been given, much as expected.' SM (01:10:54): Yes. CM (01:10:55): I would change that motto a little bit, because I think that may have fit (19)40s and (19)50s, maybe early (19)60s. I think today what we need to recognize is, we all need to bring each other up and bring the best out of our brothers [inaudible] today. That is my goal, because I have been given a lot, therefore, I have to give a lot. Yeah, I think that is one side. I get a lot, I get a huge amount from the work that I have engaged in. With students and professionals in the state of California. It's just a tremendous conduit of moving forward together. That is my goal. Not that I have anything particularly unique or special to impart, other than by bringing us together to do the best job environmentally for our state, for our country. SM (01:12:01): Well, your mom and dad, your mom would definitely be very proud of you. And your dad obviously saw this, and that is the Farms program. If I am a college administrator and I had experienced just taking students to different places. If I was working at UC Davis, I would be coming to your place every year. CM (01:12:20): Oh, thank you. SM (01:12:20): Yeah, no, because you are exactly what we are talking about here. And could you talk about how, I think your wife has involved in this too, the Farms program. Explain how you had this hands-on experience for high school students and kind of the impact that this has had on many of them, as they have gone on with their lives. CM (01:12:37): Absolutely. Well, now thank you for mentioning that Farms was our flagship program that Julie and I started way back when, in nineteen ninety four-ish, I believe, or earlier. We would bring students out to the farm and feed them. My wife is an entomologist, that is insects. So she did a great job in engaging students with integrated best management. And the wonders of how, as a food producer, we can be in balance with nature. And there really truly is a long tradition, hundreds of years old, maybe thousands old. Of how we can get our natural environment in sync. So, that has just been one of the greatest enjoyable parts of our lives, together as the man and wife. And parents raising children. SM (01:13:41): And you are also, you like being called a farmer. CM (01:13:45): I love it. When it comes time to fill out that tax form, farmer. Because to me, it resonates back to that point that I made earlier, farming is political. Food security is the most important single issue facing every man, wife, and child in this globe. And it pains me tremendously to know that as a globe, we are suffering every day from malnutrition and in a globe where we have the ability to provide. And I am going to jump forward to another mentor and a person who I think has been a guiding light. And that is Michael Paulin. And Michael has said many remarkable things, but one very simple one is he says, "Vote with your fork." And what he means by that is, if you are in charge of making policy decisions. Buy what you choose to buy and what you choose to eat. Now that gets really complicated because you could say, "Oh, well, some people might say that organic foods or healthier food is more expensive." I do not think so. My wife and I cook fresh foods every night. And yes, we buy organic, but we also spend the time doing the food preparation. It does not matter whether it is an organic carrot or a sustainably grown carrot. Taking that time to eat healthy fresh food. I believe, apparently, that all of us can do that. SM (01:15:31): Yeah, you just got to have the willpower. CM (01:15:35): I think it is wherewithal and the willpower. Yeah. SM (01:15:38): Yeah. You also received a very prestigious award, and I will not read what they said on the award, but you won the Leopold Conservation Award. And of course, Also Leopold and I took students to meet Taylor Nelson for the first time in Washington, and at the very end of our session. One of the students asked, "Well, who did you look up to? And who do you suggest we ought to read?" And he said, "Aldo Leopold." CM (01:16:05): Ah, that is good. SM (01:16:07): And of course he went on to talk about overpopulation, which was something that he thought the world has forgotten in his plea to help the environment. But that must have been quite an honor? You got that in 2007. CM (01:16:20): It was a tremendous honor, and I want to just share that honor with all of our family and farm workers and staff at the Center for Land-Based Food Learning. Who helped create that environment to win that award. There's no one award goes to one person. It just has taken so many people engaged in that. And I have a funny little recent vignette. Our youngest member of our family, Emily, has just started up college and she was very excited. She has taken a course in environmental study. So, I got this text message, not a phone call, but a text message that you will not believe. We were reading this work by an incredible nationalist. I know you have never heard of him. His name is Aldo Leopold. So I texted her back and said, "Oh my God, you were right." You have discovered something absolutely remarkable. Now, you may not have known or remembered, but I did receive the Aldo Leopold Award. So, the beauty is you bring these people into the world and then they discover. So, she is in this wonderful discovery phase of her life that there is nothing sweeter than that. Nothing better. SM (01:17:45): Is that the one at Brown? CM (01:17:46): She is at Brown, yeah. SM (01:17:47): Well, that is a great school. I got some general questions here. Now, these are just some questions I have asked a lot of the people that I have interviewed. The Boomer generation is often, and that we see it today, is often attacked as the generation that curated all the problems in our society today. I know in 1994, when Newt Gingrich came into power, he made commentaries about the period of the (19)60s, the (19)60s generation. And we certainly see a lot on Fox today. [inaudible 01:18:20] Governor Huckabee oftentimes says it. I know when John McCain was running for President, he made some comments about Hillary. Even though they were close friends, she was from the (19)60s, kind of in a negative way. But the question is this, the generation, many people are on the right or conservatives. Are saying that the generation are just responsible for the drug culture, the sexual freedoms, the breakup of the family, the divorce rate, the lessening of the influence of religion and God in their lives. Of course, they talk about rock and roll music along here, disrespect for authority, support for the welfare state, anything they can in that period, that created an ambience that has continued and gone on to be negative. But what are your thoughts when you hear that? CM (01:19:15): Well, let me just delve into what you have just said. So, are you saying that those people who are critical are not part of the Baby Boomer generation? SM (01:19:29): Oh, no. Some of them are. CM (01:19:30): That is my point. SM (01:19:33): Some of them are, and of course some are more recent [inaudible] cultures of the world. CM (01:19:37): Okay. But there is a huge section that we are all together in that. SM (01:19:43): Yes. CM (01:19:44): Just a minute. This is us. If you are criticizing, you are criticizing something that you were part of. And so help bring us together. If we are polarized and we are so polarized in this nation. What is it that is going to take us to come together? I continue to believe that diversity is our greatest gift. That by having diversity of ethnic backgrounds and diversity of belief, that is our greatest gift. If it severs us, then we have not achieved, then we have not been successful. So, let us move forward and maybe move to the side of the agenda. Some of the things that have polarized us in the past, and let us just put them in a parking lot. Take some time out, take gun control, maybe even some very, very significant issues that you and I and others feel so fervently about. Write to light, maybe let us just take that issue and put it to the side and look at other issues like food security, malnutrition, war across the world. And try to solve some of these incredibly complex issues. That potentially will tear this world apart, not just the United States. SM (01:21:13): It's as if that, and this is, I have seen it all throughout-throughout my years in the university, too. That John Kerry ran for President in 19-, excuse me, 2004. Okay. It is the (19)60s all over again. The divisions over the Vietnam War, those that said he lied about his war record and all the other things. CM (01:21:32): That to me is a tragedy. We are so mired in that, and maybe that is the origin of your question. But if it is the origin, and if there is some truth to that, stand up, take us... Let us say we are all participating. We are all contributed to that. So, I had a position to counter someone else back in 1968. For crying out loud, it is time to move on. Why is that such, why is that dividing us today? Maybe that is the answer to your question. SM (01:22:07): Yeah. And it is also, you cannot even use the word Vietnam or quagmire because if you use those two words, they immediately think of Vietnam. And of course, we all went through when Reagan became President. And we are back and we're going to bring back the (19)50s kind of mentality again. And then you had Ron, President Bush the first saying that the Vietnam syndrome is over. And well, what is the syndrome? It is like, cannot get over it. And even as President Obama, he tries to separate himself from the (19)60s, yet his opponents say he is the epitome of the (19)60s. It has returned. So it keeps going. And I think you have raised some good points. CM (01:22:51): Part of it is, why are people so mean-spirited right now? Why is it? I mean, certainly throughout history, we have had leaders, politicians, religious leaders, et cetera. Who have been mean spirited. But why is it to the degree that it is today? And I do not have that answer, but I look for it. SM (01:23:23): Yeah. I think we got to look for the better, betterness. The better of all of us or better souls, so to speak. When did the (19)60s begin? In your opinion. And when did it end? CM (01:23:38): When did it begin in my life? Or when did... SM (01:23:41): In your opinion, when, just your thoughts. When do you think the (19)60s began and when do you think it ended? CM (01:23:49): I mean, do you want a feeling? Do you want a date? SM (01:23:54): It could be anything. People have responded in so many different ways from specific events to... CM (01:24:00): I got to say, it is funny you mentioned this. I first remember hearing the Rolling Stones, I cannot get no satisfaction. I think the (19)60s started me when I heard that song. SM (01:24:13): Okay. That was a great song. CM (01:24:15): A great song. I do not know what year that hit, but I was probably... SM (01:24:20): (19)67. CM (01:24:20): (19)67? SM (01:24:27): Yeah. It was (19)66, (19)67, because my mom used to watch As The World Turns. And they were playing that song in the background on As The World Turns. Then I remember saying, "Oh my God, now the Rolling Stones have gone mainstream." CM (01:24:45): Well, now that, so maybe that is not. Maybe the (19)60s started a lot earlier than the that. SM (01:25:04): Just your opinion. CM (01:25:04): Yeah. And when did the (19)60s end? I would say the (19)60s ended with the death of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King. SM (01:25:16): In (19)68? Yeah. CM (01:25:19): I am going to tell you, when the (19)60s began, it is interesting. I just reflected on it. I have these downers, but I think the (19)60s began when President Kennedy was killed. SM (01:25:24): (19)63. CM (01:25:42): I think that is when the (19)60s began. And I think, and they ended when Martin Luther and Bobby... And I hate to bookend that by those deaths. I am not a dark person. SM (01:25:49): Would that be the watershed moment? CM (01:25:51): [inaudible]. SM (01:25:52): Would that be your watershed moment, too? CM (01:25:59): To be quite honest. I think what we are talking about, my biggest watershed moment was when my dad resigned to take care of himself. SM (01:26:08): Okay. CM (01:26:09): I actually, physically remember a crowd moving out of my mind, out of my body. Remember a dark, moving from... SM (01:26:27): Were you in the room when he did make an announcement or were you, saw it on TV? CM (01:26:35): I am pretty sure I was out of, not in. SM (01:26:45): And in 1963 with the assassination, where were you when you first heard it? CM (01:26:51): I knew exactly where I was. I was, we were at a friend’s school and, was it? It was a Friday? Was not it? SM (01:27:00): Yes, it was. November 22, was a Friday. CM (01:27:02): Yeah. We were going to have our first [inaudible 01:27:07]. Does that sound like something out of the (19)60s? SM (01:27:07): Yeah. CM (01:27:12): [inaudible]. I was very, very excited. I was always on the dance committee or on the civic. I was very excited about this event. And I think the principal may have called me to the office, prior to announcing it over the PA system. And I just was seven, six. We all were, and that began, I remember my mom picking me up and taking me home. And we had this wonderful golden retriever, who was my dog. And we just lied in bed. And then, that night we loaded into the Galaxy car and drove out to the NIH. Where the, because my dad received Kennedy, and the body well... The autopsy was going on, I was in the car waiting outside, that night. SM (01:28:14): Oh my gosh. That is when the plane came back from Dallas with president or Vice President Johnson and now President Johnson. CM (01:28:23): That is right. SM (01:28:25): That was must have been trying, and most people watched it on TV. But you were probably at the events, were not you? CM (01:28:30): I was right there, at the hospital. As I said, in the darkness, in the car. My mom was there at my dad's side. SM (01:28:40): Wow. And did you go to the Rotunda? CM (01:28:44): I did, yes. And then of course, to the grave site. SM (01:28:45): Were you with the people that walked from downtown to the Arlington? CM (01:29:02): I do not think I was involved in that. SM (01:29:05): As a young boy. I am getting into this because it is a very, you are the only person I really interviewed that had the experience of being this close to this particular event. When you were at the site at Arlington, it was on TV, everybody saw it. But what went through your mind? How old were you? You were only... CM (01:29:26): 13. SM (01:29:28): What is going through the mind of a 13 year old that his dad's boss? Because you are probably thinking that your dad's boss, has just been murdered, in Dallas. What is going through your mind? CM (01:29:46): I think quite honestly, I probably may have been seen it more through his reflections than my own. Because we had, in my lifetime, I had never experienced that. I had never experienced a violent death. I had never experienced the present in that fashion, and it was absolutely unfathomable. So, to see the sadness overcome my mom and dad. And particularly my dad, because he was in the limelight. He was so involved, picking out grave sites. And I mean, with the family, he was very close to those. To the Jack's family and the President's, and to Robert Kennedy's family. So, I think it was just the towns' grief, that had no bottom to it. SM (01:30:48): If you were to look at the generation, the Boomers. Do you like the term Boomer? CM (01:31:02): Interestingly enough, I am a person who has many opinions and I am happy to share them. I am not sure I have an opinion about it. SM (01:31:10): That is okay. CM (01:31:11): I am not sure I have an opinion about whether it is just something that I have grown up with. I just, I must admit I accept it. SM (01:31:17): I had one person who I interviewed, he said, "If you mentioned Boomer one more time, the interview's over." CM (01:31:26): He was clearly, worked up about it. SM (01:31:27): Yeah, because he was a little older than the Boomers. CM (01:31:30): It is one way or the other. I mean, maybe because... And this would totally be an inaccuracy, but the thought of as elitist, it cannot be. Because that gets back to my point of we are the Boomers. How many of us are there? SM (01:31:48): There is 74 million. CM (01:31:50): Okay. So if you're a Boomer, take responsibility for yourself. Take responsibility for our society, and take responsibility for the good and the bad and decisions that we have made. SM (01:32:06): You are right. And I had one person that mentioned to me that he thought Boomers were white men or maybe white women, and that the people of color were not included. I said, "Oh, no, boomers are everybody who was born in that period and were American." I do not even... CM (01:32:19): That is my point. SM (01:32:20): I have been dealing, been interviewing three Asian American scholars. Because you do not hear much about Asian Americans during this period. So, when you look at this generation, are there some qualities or characteristics that you like and dislike? I know you cannot generalize about a whole generation because there's 74 million. CM (01:32:39): I think we are very thoughtful. I think that we are [inaudible]. I think that by and large, we want the best for our society and for our global society. I think we have very strong values, and somehow, we have allowed. Now we have allowed a divisive to come in for our world and we have got to take that back. And we probably are, I say every day that it's the next generation will be this. And they certainly will. But you know what? It's our responsibility to heal. To heal our society, to kill what is wrong with our world things and just rely on ourselves. SM (01:33:41): Many within the generation felt that they were the most unique generation American history when they were young because they were going to end war- CM (01:33:48): I think we are- SM (01:33:50): ... racism, sexism. Your thoughts on those people that may have thought that they were unique. CM (01:33:56): Well, I am not going to pass judgment on people who thought they were unique. I would just caution us to look at before and after generations. I think our parents' generation, credibly had the wherewithal to survive tremendous difficulties because they were all very aware of. And I think this generation of young people is remarkably all their talents and some of their downsides. As a parent, I think some of us have raised a bit of an entitled generation that is not going to serve us and I do not think will serve them well. They will come to grips with it. SM (01:34:47): Yeah. We talked earlier about the generation gap between parents and children and we have discussed that. But in a book called The Wounded Generation, that came out in 1980, in a panel discussion, a symposium with five major Vietnam veterans and one of them being Bobby Mueller and Phil Caputo, who wrote the Rumor of War- CM (01:35:10): I know Phil well. SM (01:35:11): ... yeah, and then the Senator of Virginia now, Jim Webb and a couple others. They talked about a lot of different issues and one of them was about the generation gap in service. And I think it was Senator Webb, but he was not senator then, of course, and he made a comment that he felt that the generation gap really was between those who went to war and those who did not. He said yeah, there was the gap between parents and children, but- CM (01:35:46): He was good. SM (01:35:46): ... he said there were those who went to war and there were those who did not and so, within the generation, there was a generation gap. And he felt very strongly about that. And he went so far as to say, we look at the (19)60s generation with President Kennedy and the Peace Corps and Vista and all these service ideas, but he says, it really is not the service generation because they would have all gone to war if they were the service generation, when their nation called. Give your thoughts on that. CM (01:36:19): Well, I must agree with him in terms of this sub-gap, and I think that is well defined by those who serve in war and those who did not, and if they served in conscientious objector roles, or left the country, or served in other capacities. Yeah, I am not sure I have a lot more to add. SM (01:36:53): The two qualities here that had really mentioned to every single person starting with Senator McCarthy in 1996, was the equality within this generation that they just did not trust, because in most cases they had witnessed so many leaders lying to them. People that were observant and in the know that President Eisenhower lied to the American public when he said that the U2 was not a spy plane and it was. CM (01:37:28): Yeah. SM (01:37:29): The Gulf of Tonkin with President Johnson, history has shown that that was not really a truthful beginning of a war. And we had people like Senator Morris and others challenging the president right from the get-go. We had Watergate with Richard Nixon. We had so many leaders that students, at this time, just did not trust anybody in positions of responsibility, whether they were a religious leader, a corporate leader, a university leader, a political leader. Do you feel that that quality, that is often labeled within this generation, is a plus or a negative? CM (01:38:08): Well, let us talk about why it is that way first. Then let us apply a plus or negative. One of the reasons it is that way is because of the technology of the time in the media. We had never, correct me if I am wrong, experienced a way of communicating with each other that would get that word out. And of course, today you look at our ability through all of our social networking is hugely more engaged in that way. But were not we one of the first generations, and was not Vietnam one of the first occasions where we had information, right, wrong or indifferent, that we as a generation could determine whether it was truthful or not? And so that gave us the substrate or that gave us the foundation or the infrastructure to then make a judgment and I think that is what you are moving towards. We may have been in a unique position. I am not saying that our generation of boomers is any more unique than other generations, but we had a unique opportunity to view things. And yes, I think we did challenge. And I think that we did develop a significant amount of mistrust. Was that a plus or a minus? I harken back to this, "It does not really matter, the fact is we are living with it." So, I am a much more engaged person in terms of... I want to attempt to understand history so that I change our future course, but I want us to engage and make a difference today. So, I am less prone to say it was a plus or a minus, and I would rather say, "Come on. Let us get going. Let us get going in community gardens. Let us get going in getting people out of prison. Let us get going in improving society rather than being divisive." SM (01:40:23): Excellent response. The other one was in the issue of healing. I took a group of students that are your daughter's age, back in 1995, to Washington DC, to meet Senator Edmond Musky. We spent two hours with him and our Leadership On The Road programs. And the students came up with the questions, because they had seen videos of 1968 and all the divisions in America at that time and they knew that he was the vice-presidential running lead. And I interviewed Fred Harris and I did not know that it was between him, Fred Harris, and Edmond Musky and it was decided, right there in Chicago. But the point I am trying to get at here is that they saw the divisions, and so they came up with a question. They wanted Senator Musky to respond. And this was the question, "Due to the tremendous divisions that took part in America in the 1960s, the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops or against the troops, do you feel that all these extreme divisions, including the burnings of the cities..." They went on and on and on about all the negative stuff, the assassinations of President Kennedy and then the two that were killed in 1968. "Do you feel that the boomer generation, like the Civil War generation will go to its grave not healing? They will be bitter?" And we are not talking about everybody now, but those that were involved in all these movements and the divisions and the battles that were fought, that the boomer generation has an issue with healing? CM (01:42:16): No, I do not feel that we will go to our grave divided. I mean there is so many layers. You have asked very good questions. All your questions are good, but the final one, because it has to do with our sense of the future, if we cannot depend on it, but you're talking about internally, as a boomer generation. SM (01:42:47): Some people thought I should have paraphrased this by those who went to Vietnam, the three plus million who served and those who were in the anti-war movement. Some people say, if you really ask that question that way, then that might be a different answer, but- CM (01:43:02): I hope I am not naive on answering the question. I do not believe that that we will remain divide upon. I hope that is the case. I feel a tremendous sense of grief and loss over how our men were received when they came back from Vietnam. I think that is a stain on our national wellbeing and I have worked in my own personal life to understand that and to heal as best I can, and so- SM (01:43:52): Do you think your dad healed? CM (01:43:57): No, I do not think he healed. No, I think he was alone. SM (01:44:00): If he was an individual, it might be a person by person response to that question. CM (01:44:05): No, I do not think that he ever recovered from that. As hard as he worked to improve the lives of men and women and children around the world, he visited every country and every leader. And he went to many school sites and agricultural sites, attempting to bring prosperity to folks. I do not- SM (01:44:40): You have been to the wall in Washington? CM (01:44:42): I have. SM (01:44:43): I would like your response when you first saw it, thinking of all the things that may have come to your mind. And Jan Scruggs wrote the book To Heal A Nation, and honestly, the wall was built to heal the families that lost loved ones in the war and to heal the Vietnam veterans and their families who went through so much. And it was to be a non-political entity. That was their goal and so forth. But he also said in the book that he hoped that it would heal the nation too, even beyond the veterans, and be kind of a first step. First off, what's your first reaction when you saw the wall for the first time and your thoughts on whether it has played any part in healing the nation that Jan was talking? CM (01:45:38): Well, I must say, very honestly, that a few years ago, I could not have had this conversation with you, because of what I mentioned to you. Just whether one calls it post-traumatic stress, whether one calls it the deep wound scars of Vietnam, I too have been scarred by them, and I say that humbly, because I did not fight in it. But I do think that in our lives that we are scarred by events because of the various roles and actions that we have taken or not taken or have been taken by someone close to us. So, I have experienced a cathartic experience with a very important group in my life, that included a Vietnam vet that I very much respect. And for me that was, I am not sure healing is the right word necessarily, but catharsis is, so it was an evolution. It was a time when I could reveal and dig very deep into those ones that I have played. Therefore, it has helped me heal, because literally I would weep in this conversation had I not had that experience. So back to your question about the wall. My first experience at the wall was prior to this catharsis, and it was the total breaking down for me of experience. And I happened to be there I think, at twilight or in the evening, so it was very alone, very humbling. But I do. Moving towards what Jan Scruggs was saying, as a healing experience for our nation, I hope it is. I hope the true anger and our own personal experiences, we can move forward. SM (01:47:55): Do you know when your dad went there for the first time? CM (01:47:58): No, I do not. There is all sorts of stories relating to that and his first visit. I do not know if you have read Paul Hendrickson's work? SM (01:48:12): Yes, I did. I interviewed him for my book. CM (01:48:14): Oh, you did? SM (01:48:15): Yeah. CM (01:48:20): I have had an interesting experience with Paul, when he started his book, Dad called all of his friends and acquaintances to, " Please cooperate to the degree that you would like with this author. I give my go ahead." And I think as Paul's documents and manuscript matured, Dad realized it was something that he no longer wanted to cooperate with. And Paul had been out to our home here in California and stayed with my wife and I, as he was doing his investigative work. And of any author, I think the amount of research that he did on the family and the root of Dad down there, were vast and it is a fascinating piece. And Paul blends fact and fiction and creates a story, so one has to interpret that. But I moved away from my relationship with Paul, at that time, when I realized the direction he was taking the book. And I actually wrote Paul said that I did not give permission to interviews in it. And that caused, as you can imagine, a real rift in our relationship, which we have subsequently healed. SM (01:49:51): Yeah, I think I interviewed him six years ago. I think something like that, so he is a pen. CM (01:49:58): Yeah. We are back in communication. I have always respected Paul. I always appreciated his writing. I think he is a great writer. SM (01:50:10): Yeah, he wrote a book on the South too. CM (01:50:11): Yeah. SM (01:50:13): Speaking of books, what books did you read when you were growing up, that had really an influence on you? And what did your dad and mom read? CM (01:50:21): Oh, my God. My dad's bookstand next to his bed was like the Leaning Tower of Pisa. It was just unbelievable. Off the top of [inaudible], my mom and dad had a huge appreciation for art and for music, so I grew up with a lot of art books, of the well-known world artists, and a lot of both concertos and orchestras and jazz music. So those are some of the early ones that I remember. SM (01:51:16): Yeah. And we all know that President Kennedy was really influenced by Michael Harrington's book, The Other America. CM (01:51:23): Right. SM (01:51:24): And of course, I assumed when I read that, I immediately had to read it and I did. It might be I have got a first edition of that book now. CM (01:51:31): I apologize [inaudible]. SM (01:51:33): Yeah. And I had all your dad's books by the way. CM (01:51:35): Oh, congratulations. SM (01:51:37): And I have read all of them. I am a bibliophile. It has been many years since I read some of the earlier ones. I think we have gone over a little bit here. Can we have ten more minutes and then that will be it. CM (01:51:53): Let us stop at 10 [inaudible]. SM (01:51:54): Yeah, because- CM (01:51:55): You have done a fantastic job. And I really feel honored to speak with you and to know the background that you have put into all of this. SM (01:52:02): Well, this is a first time effort for me. And I feel funny being saying I am an author because I have been a college administrator my whole life. But I love history and I am a bibliophile. I have about 10,000 books. CM (01:52:15): Good for you. I hope you got them well [inaudible]. SM (01:52:17): Well, what I am planning on doing is creating a... I have talked to the Cazenovia College, which is a small school outside Casnovia, New York, where my parents met. And my parents went to school there in (19)39 to (19)41, before my dad went off to war. And I went to Sydney Binghamton as an undergrad and then I went to Ohio State to grad school, but I want to create a center for the city of the boomer generation there. And I am willing to give them all my books as long as they create a center, hire a professor to run it, and they will get all my tapes and they will get all my memorabilia. They will get everything, as long as they stamp my parents' name and all. I have the same feeling toward my parents that you do toward yours, because I owe everything to them and way beyond the fact that I would not be here without them. But they helped form me and shape me so- CM (01:53:19): Well, that is wonderful. That is very generous of you. SM (01:53:20): Well, I am hoping it is up to the university now to follow through and so we will see what happens. I got only really two more questions and one of them though, there is sections to it. These are quotes that have had effect on a lot of boomers in the generation. And I would just like your immediate responses to these quotes that were well known, particularly in the (19)60s and seventies. By Any Means Necessary by Malcolm X. CM (01:53:56): I understood it. SM (01:53:59): Do you think it symbolized taken, creating violence in your own hand? A lot of people- CM (01:54:10): Yeah. Here's how it resonated with me and how I acted upon it. As a 17-year-old, I left high school the winter of my [inaudible] year and worked in Harlem, at the Street Academy program that run by the Urban League. And I worked at Charles Evans Hughes High School on the lower West Side. I understood that quote. I understood what young blacks were going through and I tried to work within the system to bring change. SM (01:54:43): Okay. Two very important ones from that inaugural speech by President Kennedy, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." And the second one that I think is equally important, because many people believe it was the precursor to everything that is followed, particularly in Vietnam, " We will bear any burden and pay any price for the guarantee of liberty and freedom." So, I am going to the full length of the quotes, but those are two very important quotes from JFK. CM (01:55:12): Yeah, they very much were. And the first one I remember fondly, because although I was not a Quaker, I was going to a Quaker school with two of my friends, so we would have Friday meetings as students, which was an assembly of quiet. And I remember standing up in one of the meetings and saying, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you do for your country." It was very profound. That was something that everybody knew. It was familiar. But it was moving and I thought I would share it, quiet meaning firm. And the other one is I think something that we lived by and it is a guiding light for us. SM (01:56:03): That is like a cold war. We're in the Cold War. CM (01:56:08): Yes. SM (01:56:08): Yeah. This is a quote from The Women's Movement and they use it as their central quote, "All politics is person." CM (01:56:19): I would agree very quickly, because to me what that means is that we all need to be engaged in politics. And politics as I have found in my own life, can be politics of the soil, of the land, politics of food, politics of health, politics of obesity, politics of social justice. I totally can. SM (01:56:45): How about, "I have a dream." Of course, we all know that was Dr. King. CM (01:56:46): I think that is both for societal as well as the individual folk. SM (01:57:11): And this is a paraphrasing of something that Muhammad Ali said, "I had no reason to go off to a war in Vietnam, and kill yellow people, when there is little care for black people on the home front." CM (01:57:26): Because of my personal experiences that I have related to, I understand. SM (01:57:32): Do you agree with that? CM (01:57:34): I do not agree with it. I understand- SM (01:57:37): Oh, okay. CM (01:57:37): ... where it is coming from. SM (01:57:40): Yeah. "Tune in, turn on, drop out." Timothy Leary. CM (01:57:45): Certainly, part of my generation did not agree with it. Interestingly enough, I was back in Washington about two weeks ago and there in the National Art Gallery, I saw that theory in black and white photographic exhibit by Allen Kingsbury [inaudible]. SM (01:58:17): And this is a quote that Bobby Kennedy used in his Indianapolis speech, which was a quote from another person from the 19th century, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?" CM (01:58:38): I think I have faith and I think both my friendship with [inaudible] parents have been [inaudible]. SM (01:58:48): I mean, I am losing you. I cannot hear you. CM (01:58:49): I think from my friendship [inaudible] SM (01:58:57): Pressed it. Okay, and taping on two tape recorders. And of course, a lot of this is going to be about you, but it is also a lot on your dad too. You okay now? CM (01:59:06): I am ready to go. SM (01:59:08): How did you become who you are, with respect to talking about your growing up years before you went off to college? What was it like going to high school and those early influences? And of course, you can talk about your dad and mom at this time too. CM (01:59:25): So, are we focusing a little bit at the end of middle school and on to high school, or [inaudible] high school? SM (01:59:34): Basically high school. CM (01:59:35): My high school was a continuation of football friends who were in Washington DC, which for me was a remarkable experience, because I came from Ann Arbor, Michigan as a 10 year old and went to the elementary school with my friends. And I came into the school system with a reading problem, a significant dyslexia problem that, at that age, at that time, was not really well known. It was a large umbrella that covered many different parts of that learning disorder. So it was a lot of work for me. Getting to high school was a dynamic challenge. Sidwell Friends really did a remarkable job in assisting me and creating an environment that was very supportive. So, in ninth grade with all the excitement of sports and a solid education, I was really in tune. And a good friend of mine had left Sidwell Friends at the end of eighth grade. And I said, "Well, where did you go, Frank?" And he said, "Well, I went to this place called St. Paul's School." And what I did not realize was that he was prepared for this by his father and probably grandfather and it was a family tradition. And he said, "You got to try this. You got to try this." I said, "Well, what is this?" He said, "Well, it's the prep school. “I said, "I am really happy here at Sidwell Friends. I have got all my friends and sports." He said, "No. No. You got to try it." So, I left Sidwell at the end of ninth grade and went to St. Paul in [inaudible] for the remaining years of High School. It was a definite road not taken for me ever before. It was a very divergent road in my upbringing. My mom and dad had always raised us with a real foundation, I think, of social justice, of appreciation for, I am going to say the common good, the common man, for society. And I did not know what I was getting into in this interesting environment that St. Paul School provided. It was an incredibly challenging academic environment, especially for me. And it was the environment that, to be quite honest, myself, I was under prepared for and overwhelmed by. So what one normally does is learn how to compensate. My compensation was through my communication with people and my endeavors in on the athletics field. So those were the areas that I really excelled in and had a very, very difficult time struggling at Camp Cedar. SM (02:02:43): What years were you there? CM (02:02:46): That is a good question. I think that I began that school in 1965. SM (02:02:49): Okay. CM (02:02:54): And I moved with the years. I was born in (19)50, so in (19)65, I would have been 15, and I graduated from St. Paul's, 1969. SM (02:03:08): Yeah. What was it like growing up as your home base? Because your dad was working for President Kennedy and while your father was Secretary of Defense from (19)61 to (19)67, before he headed off to the World Bank, what was it like? In all of these roles that he played, did you feel there was any pressure that your dad was a very... They called him one the best and the brightest, as David Halberstan had written in his book. Did you ever feel that when you had that visible a person like your dad, who was very accomplished that you could not meet his standards and you were trying to? Or did you just want to get away to find your own identity? CM (02:03:58): You have covered a broad brush of ideas with the- A broad brush of ideas with the suggestions there. So let us look at them one by one. Pressures that a son feels from his father or a child feels from their parents. There cannot be anything more traditional than that. And so, yes, of course I really did have felt that throughout my life. And it's a wonderful realization at certain times in your life when you realize you can appreciate what your parents have done, appreciate leadership that they have provided in this case to their country, to their families, to their children. But yes, I felt a tremendous struggle that at times I was age appropriately unaware of. But let me just go back to the first feelings of moving to Washington DC. You have got to understand, I was raised in Ann Arbor, Michigan, but my whole connection was with nature from riding bikes to making dams, creeks, to building tree houses that have been out all day long with my mom whistling the special family whistle to let me know that dinner was ready. My life in the fifties and early (19)60s, one of edible connection with this dynamic course, which ultimately has changed my life, which is nature in food system. So coming to Washington DC was, I was an excited kid. I was 10 years old and slammed a little bit with this learning issue, but I took that instead. And my mom worked night and day literally with me. I can remember both of us kind of weeping together over my inability to do homework, but it just kind of did it. But then there was the other side of Washington, which was the new frontier, the Camelot, the excitement of this credible young president, family and cabinet. And they were called to serve the cabinet members and their families were called to serve. So, I remember, I have fond memories of things that today are magical. They truly are magic moments that reflect back to your book that I knew they were special, but I did not know how special they were. Joining President Kennedy at Camp David, remembering being in the living room study of what seemed like a log cabin. It was a very understated building that the president at that time lived in at Camp David and seeing him at ease in his rocking chair, and Emily, I remember attending in the White House, the first showing of PT-109. SM (02:07:07): Oh my gosh. Cliff Robertson. CM (02:07:10): Sitting on the floor and the president was on, I think a shade or some sort of seating. And together with all of the Robert Kennedy family and present family, it was an easy, wonderful relationship. And taking off from the White House, Rose Garden or wherever the helicopters take off from as a 11 or 12 year old, it was so questionable. But it just seemed, it was part of life's fabric. I am trying to describe this incredible feeling. I am putting my two hands together because on one hand it was reality and another hand it was far removed from anything that I will ever live again. SM (02:08:11): What's interesting, and I can remember reading your dad's book In Retrospect, in the sections where he talks about the family, which he did quite often throughout the book. And he mentioned that the University of Michigan that you talked about and he wanted to live in a university environment and not in some rich suburb. Well, and I thought that was, he really had his head on his shoulders and obviously it was probably very impressionable and important for him with respect to his family. And that is where you got your love for nature. CM (02:08:39): It really did. And it teased out throughout our lives in the sense that in one respect, my dad must have been the first commuter because Ann Arbor from Dearborn where he worked, I do not know in that day and age how many minutes it was maybe 45 or 50 or an hour. And so he made that decision to have the intellectual capacity of living in a university town and back to my image here of nature, of living in an area that was not economically oriented. And he would drive home the new models, whether it was the T-bird or eventually the Edel or whatever. SM (02:09:29): He drove an Edel home. CM (02:09:29): Yeah. Whatever the new model was and would test drive them. And the other thing that my dad and mom always emphasized was a time for us as a family to be together and typically being that he truly was a workaholic, it would be on a vacation in the Sierra Mountain because mom and dad grew up in the Bay area of California and the Sierras were so important to them and to their generation. We would as a family, actually part of the family. Dad would be working in Michigan, mom and my two sisters and I would head out in the summertime in the old station wagon and drive to the eastern slope of the Deer, Nevada. Up with their college friends and families. And we would launch a two week trip, initially packed trip with mules into the Sierras. These were the most wonderful experiences of my life. Campfires and was sating off of snowbank into crystal clear lakes and catching fish. My mom was a tremendous fisher woman and taught me how to fish and wild fish... SM (02:10:58): She was quite accomplished too. CM (02:11:00): She was a remarkable... SM (02:11:03): Reading about her and her background. And she passed away in (19)81, I believe. CM (02:11:07): She did. She had mesothelioma cancer around the throat. It was told to us that she would have an 11-month life and she lived 11 months. But she was one of the greatest sources of inspiration, I think for my father. She was the greatest source of love and inspiration for me and our family. Just an absolutely down to earth, remarkable human being. SM (02:11:39): She was involved with a group organization called Reading Is Fundamental. I think your sister has been somewhat linked to that too, but it's a nonprofit children's literacy organization. Was that based on the fact of your experiences with her as a young child? CM (02:11:54): I think it was three. Certainly, it was the experience that she and I shared of how difficult it is for some children. Secondly, coming to the nation's capital and realizing that the literacy rate was so poor and that was wrong. And thirdly, as my dad felt the story when meeting with President Kennedy said, okay, when he brought the cabinet wives together, your husbands are going to be under tremendous amount of pressure and work, and I want you to do something meaningful for yourself, for society. So it was kind of those three or four things. And I am so proud of my mom. She started this program. Reading Is Fundamental out of a mobile unit, book mobiles. They would go around to schools and have school children come on board and pick out a free book, start a library in families where there were no books. And that has grown into a global network, it is remarkable. SM (02:12:59): Is your sister linked to that in some way? CM (02:13:01): My older sister, Margie, is on the board of RIF. SM (02:13:04): Okay, very good. Yeah. And I guess President Carter awarded her the Medal of Freedom too. CM (02:13:11): Which was an outstanding recognition of my mom's dedication to our [inaudible] side. SM (02:13:24): Getting back to that time when your dad was Secretary of Defense, what memories do you have wherever you were location wise about the people that David Halberstam often describes in his book, The Best and The Brightest? Your dad was part of this group, and what are your memories when, and I have got about seven or eight things here that were very important during or pretty big during your dad's reign and at Secretary of Defense. The inaugural speech of John Kennedy, where were you and how did that speech influence you in any way? CM (02:14:00): Oh, I am so glad that you have brought that up and reminded me of that. That whole experience began for me when dad's came home from work one day and said, well, what would you think of moving to Washington DC? Now you're talking now, I was 10 years old. And I said, well Dad, do not worry about that because we're not going to do that. I have got my friends here, we have got the tree house, we have got all of what we so enjoyed here. And he said, well, I have been asked by the president prominent to be a part of his cabinet. And the rest of that story is history. Obviously, he went out and I did not. But I do remember my mom and dad had gone to Washington in preparation for the inaugural and my older sisters and I were to fly out to be part of the day that you were mentioning here. And it was an icy winter ice storm as I recall. And I was the one in charge of the alarm clock to wake up. My sisters, now remember, they're teenagers and I am 10 years old. And I was worried that if I were to wake them up, they were going to get really angry with me for waking them up. So I think we were a little late getting to the airport, got to Washington, picked up by a limo. Now this is something I had never even dreamed of being in one or certainly had never ridden. This was very exciting. And I recall being in the audience, looking up at the cabinet behind him on the Capitol, just watching Robert Frost and just being in the palm of something of God's hands in a very, very special way. And then the day, I do not remember how it totally unfolded, but I do remember in the reviewing stand in front of the White House, whatever that was, in 1960 and after it was very different than what they do today. And I think by that time it was a chilly day, very chilly but sunshine as I recall. And I remember the cabinet coming past in their cars that were convertibles, I think open-top. And I remember my mom and dad in their car and dad had what? Remind me the name of the hat. The Stove Pipe Cap? SM (02:16:31): Oh, Abraham Lincoln's Hose Cap. CM (02:16:33): Abraham Lincoln. And I recall saying, shouting out to my dad, dad, you look really great out there. And then they went on, I am looking at my office wall right now because I am looking at a picture of them at one of the inaugural balls that they attended. And my dad in a tux and my mom in a ball gown with their gloves and everything. Quite a remark. SM (02:17:05): Yeah, I think President Kennedy, there is pictures of him wearing that kind of a hat too. CM (02:17:09): Oh, absolutely. SM (02:17:09): Yeah. And of course that was a very cold day. You remember the president was speaking, you see the breath when he was speaking? It was, but it was a great speech. I remember it was a cold day. CM (02:17:22): Can you hold one second? SM (02:17:39): Yes. CM (02:17:39): [inaudible] So I get lots of men coming by looking for work. SM (02:17:46): A couple of the other events, and you will remember what maybe your dad talking about it at the table or conversing, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis because those are two very big events. CM (02:17:57): They are indeed. My memories of those... This wrapped into a much larger part of my life. And that is that, as you can imagine from my earlier comments, dad kept his work very separate from my life and actually throughout our life, whether because we're talking kind of early teen right now, 12, 13, 14. But as I became a late teenager and all the way through my life, it was something that dad just chose not to share, not to talk about, not to engage in. I think it was painful. I think he was trying to be protective. Was it right or wrong on his part? I do not think I can apply that sort of rationale. Did it ultimately help me? No, it did not. But to get back to specifically your question about the missile crisis, I do recall that much more fervently than Bay of Pig. Dad would come home from work say eight o'clock. And he always sat on the same part of the couch. He would always have his hand on the coffee table to the left where the lamp was. He would typically be reading the paper. And in his hand, on the coffee table was this beautiful walnut plaque. And there is some imagery here because I am a walnut grower, this walnut plaque that probably measured four inches by four inches and on top of the plaque was the most beautiful silver gallon, just a little piece of silver with the month of October, 1962, with the critical dates of the Cuban Missile Crisis embedded deeper in the silver gallon. And I remember my dad just kind of, his hand would be on that. And it was as if it was braille, as if the digit of his finger were rereading, recognizing the potential devastation of our world, had the United States launched their weapon. SM (02:20:32): Wow. CM (02:20:32): I have that memory emblazoned in my mind. That stayed with us forever. SM (02:20:44): Now that was a scary moment as we all watched President Kennedy on TV that night. And of course we all remember Adlai Stevenson at the United Nations. I am going to wait for your reply until hell freezes over. I will never forget it. I am only a little older than you, so of course. So a few more here. The Gulf of Tonkin on Vietnam, obviously in 1964, a lot has been written about that. Your thoughts on that as well as the protests on college campuses that went throughout the time that he was Secretary of Defense and of course the big one. There were two at the Pentagon and then the one in 1967 where they levitated supposedly the Pentagon. And in the 1965 one, which I am going to come back to later, where the man burned himself to death, just anything really linking to Vietnam. CM (02:21:43): Well, let me remind us that I was 14, 1964. Maybe 14 year olds today are a little more worldly in their global understanding than I was. So those memories are more In Retrospect, my reflections on those [inaudible] as I awaken to Vietnam. My personal awaken occurred closer to 1966, (19)67, I am going to say. There again, I was had in [inaudible]. One of my dear friends who was going to be the president of the school, had created a teaching about Vietnam. Now think of this is high school. So he was 17, this is Rick King. And he had invited professors, I believe from the Boston area and maybe Dartmouth speaking. I said, well now wait a minute, Rick. At that point I still said, there must be a reason that we were in Vietnam. And I remember standing in a phone booth, we do not have phone booths anymore, but I was standing in a phone booth from school and talking with dad, dad going to be a teacher, is there any material that you can send me to justify the war in Vietnam? And it just occurred while I am speaking with you on the phone, why it was that no materials arrived. I think at that point I realized there was no justification for us to be there. It did not dawn on me then, but the materials never arrived, the teaching occurred. And that was a rite of passage. And I remember later on I am 19, being in social events in Washington DC in the backyard of a friends' house in Georgetown and the decision makers, I will put them in one category, decision makers, my father and other decision makers saying, well, you just have not read enough about this issue, but you do not really know what you are talking about. And yet we knew very intuitively and from our small world exposure that Vietnam War would not go forth. SM (02:24:20): Yeah. I interviewed Dr. Henry Graff, the former professor at Columbia University on Monday, and he did the Tuesday cabinet book about Tuesday cabinet meetings where your dad and top people on foreign policy would meet with President Johnson every Tuesday. CM (02:24:40): Yes. SM (02:24:40): And he had chances to talk to your dad four times. And he talked to him just before he was leaving in (19)67 as well. Johnson gave him full access to the cabinet. And he was, what is interesting is when I talked to him about the gatherings of these people, it was known early on the McGeorge Bundy, even in his book says he was against the war from the get-go way back in (19)64. And I know that Bill Moyers was against the war himself, and he was only there for three years working with the President Johnson. And then your dad had misgivings about the war for a long time. And I asked Dr. Graff, here you have Secretary Defense, McNamara. McGeorge Bundy was the special assistant, I forget his full title. And you had his press secretary, Bill Moyers against the war. President Johnson kept going on. And Dr. Graff, you have to understand, these men kept their differences behind closed doors and they showed that they were loyal. And that is what the kind of people that President Johnson wanted around him. CM (02:25:52): Well, that is such an important point that you brought up loyalty because something to my dad always referred to. And I would ask him on those rare occasions that particularly after the fact when he was at the World Bank and finally came out with his book, In Retrospect said, why could not you have addressed it? Why could not you have spared yourself and our nation so much anguish, sorrow and grief? And said several things. One is that he was an appointed cabinet senator that he did, he was not elected. Felt that it was his duty and his loyalty to serve the President in the best capacity that he could. And then I think that there is an evolution in people's, like these thought processes and lives that allow them to come to grace, come to some sort of understanding. And thank God he did. I mean, I do not know many other people in his situation who have publicly and privately said, I made a mistake and I would like us, I would like myself to learn from this mistake. And maybe history can use these, that is so [inaudible], so accurately developed in fog of war, which by the way, I think every high school [inaudible]. SM (02:27:22): Well, I agree. I have a copy of it. I think it's a classic. And I agree with what you say about your dad because one of the issues, I was in higher education for almost 30 some years, and very few people are willing to ever admit they make a mistake. And it is a sign of a true leader when they do because they become vulnerable. And then they start questioning, what happened to your dad? Why did not you do this before you left in 1967? Here is another criticism of your dad. Why was it that when you left, and I remember the scene, it is actually can see it on YouTube where the President is the going away there when he was very emotional. And he did not really say that because he did not agree with the President. I know he did not. And then some people said, well, he went off to Aspen to ski and he was responsible for the desk of so many people on the wall. So, there is so many perceptions, but you are kind of like, you are damned if you do, or damned if you do not kind of a... CM (02:28:25): Well, I think what you say is accurate and about his welling up and being very emotional and actually very interesting because from that point on, he probably would never admit that. But I think he suffered significantly from a posttraumatic stress syndrome that, believe it or not, I think I suffered from too in the sense that the event of Vietnam were so distraught, disturbing to our nation personally. You mentioned the [inaudible] person igniting themselves in front of the Pentagon. Those events are so dark, so traumatic, I do not think one ever recovers from them. And you cannot control them. You cannot control when those emotions. That is a significant damage to one [inaudible] character. And you cannot suppress that. As good as certain people are and my father was one of the best at compartmentalizing parts of his life, that went deep into all parts of his life. I do not think for the rest of his life, he could actually control them. SM (02:29:48): One of the things that upset so many of the Boomer generation that because TV was very important, black and white television and the news is when your dad gave those weekly reports on the numbers killed. And many believed he was lying because those reports concluded dead animals and all the other things just to please the President. But what is interesting when he wrote, In Retrospect, I have two anecdotes. My very first interview, because I started this project way back in (19)96, as it said in my letter there, and I met with Senator McCarthy. And one of the questions during my meeting when Senator Eugene McCarthy was, what do you think of the new book out by Robert McNamara? And I have to listen to it again to get the exact quote, but he is a little too late. A little too late. And he was very upset. And he said, let us go on the next question. So that was his response. And then I have pictures at the Vietnam Memorial because I have been going to the Vietnam Memorial since 1994 for veterans and Memorial Day to pay my respects. And in about the year that In Retrospect came out, I will never forget it, there were two copies of... In fact, I can look it up and send it to you on the computer. There were two copies of your dad's book that had bullet holes through it. And very bad words underneath the book. So the feelings were still there. And then when I go to the wall many times, I do not get there as much now, but there is three names that always come up that were the bad people. And yeah, it depends, if it is the veterans talking, it is Jane Fonda who they cannot stand for obvious reasons. And then they mentioned your dad and Henry Kissinger. Yeah, those three. But then if it is the anti-war people, it is not Jane Fonda, it is your dad, Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon. And they throw a little bit of Agnew in there, but they do not say a whole lot about LBJ because of his great to society. So, those are just some anecdotes I wanted to share. Why did you drop out of Stanford? CM (02:32:04): Oh, largely because of my disenfranchisement with this remarkable country that I do love tremendously. And that was 1971 of the winter. And I just realized that having, I personally lived very close to the man who was Secretary of Defense during the lead up of Vietnam said, getting back to these wounds, whether you want to call it post-traumatic stress syndrome or whatever, that I needed to rediscover my country, that I needed to reinvest in my country. I needed to reinvest in myself. And the only way I could do that was somehow get a new vision of the beauty of the springs, of our people, of our country. And the way I did that was to begin a journey to South America. And I began that with a few friends. And we traveled through Central America learning Spanish along the way, and eventually arriving in Columbia where my two friends decided to say that their travel journey was over and mine was not. And I continued on that point all the way down to [inaudible], spending another year and a half on the road in the more formidable part of that journey for me was working on as a farmhand. I worked with some modern Indians, I worked with Julian dairy farmers, I worked with hay growers, produce people. I worked on fishing boats. And I was immersed in something that, it completely resonated for me. It was food production. And for me, it brought together two worlds that I thought were very divergent at that time. One was the political world that I had somewhat grown up in. The other was the early world that my parents had shown me, which was that of the garden of... My fondest childhood memories of being with my dad, mom in the garden with him picking a fresh tomato and putting a little salt on it, taking a big bite, the juice, rolling down his cheeks. My mom picking asparagus, cutting roses... Picking asparagus, cutting roses to bring into our kitchen table. Those two worlds, the early ones and the mid ones, the land and the politics, to me were married in food production. I realized, after two and a half years on the road, I had no education. I had worked a little bit, but I had no education. I wanted to formalize that, and went to UC Davis, to study plant and soil sciences, knowing in the beginning that I wanted to come out and eventually farm. SM (02:35:35): Wow. What a story. Were your parents worried about you being so far away? CM (02:35:43): They must have been absolutely worried, for many, many reasons. Just let me remind you, I arrived in Santiago, Chile in the early days of September, 1971, and that was the anniversary of Salvador Allende being the first elected socialist president in Chile. SM (02:36:06): Wow. CM (02:36:09): Dad, being the head of the World Bank at that time, certainly knew of the difficulties that were occurring in Chile, and probably could, in his own mind, forecast how the future may unfold. I know my mom was very worried about my wellbeing, and of course, there was no communication. Just in terms of getting mail, my parents would send a letter to an embassy, that was the only way I could get mail. I think I called them infrequently, maybe every six months, something like that. It's so interesting now to have children who are texting, and messaging, and emailing, and phoning, and the tree of communications today, and the different level of communication. SM (02:37:08): One of the big things that was in the news around the mid-(19)60s was the fact that Governor Rockefeller's son was` down in Brazil, and disappeared. CM (02:37:21): He did, I recall that. SM (02:37:21): That was really big in the news. Of course, he was down there to help people. CM (02:37:24): I do not know if you have seen the movie "Missing," about the coup in Chile. It is a very powerful movie, and to be quite honest, my story could have been similar to that story. SM (02:37:42): Wow. I am going to get back to your work with the farm in a couple of minutes here, but correct me if I am ever repeating anything, because I have got a series of questions here I have in order. I do a lot of thinking before I do my interviews. CM (02:37:54): I know you do. I saw you put in a great deal of research. SM (02:37:58): Everyone is different, and some are some general questions. CM (02:38:02): It makes it fun and interesting and insightful for you and for the person you are interviewing, and potentially for the people reading the book. SM (02:38:09): I want to reach students and high school students, college students with this as well as the general public, because I want people to understand where people come from, and to show a little respect for people who they may agree or disagree with. I do not have a whole lot of tolerance for intolerance at times. I understand that you were against the war that your dad ran. Did you have any major discussions with him at different times about the war, and your differences, and did he listen? Was there a major generation gap between you and your parents, and how about your two sisters and the parents? CM (02:38:49): Well, as I mentioned before, Dad in certain ways was a master at compartmentalizing. I think he felt, in his own vision as a parent of the (19)60s, that he needed in some way to protect his son and his children, and he did that by not engaging in conversation- SM (02:39:10): Okay. CM (02:39:11): About Vietnam. The only time I would glean information on that front would be if I had a friend who was well versed in the topic, and that friend was trying to engage Dad in conversation. That was when I could open the window to some of his thoughts on that, and that continued throughout his life. Here is the bottom line between a father and a son: we never lost love for one another. We never lost respect for one another. I give my mom tremendous credit for being the conduit of love and communication, because that is a natural way to [inaudible]. So many families, and .so many of my peers lost their relationship to their father at that time, and never healed. I have friends coming up to me and saying, to my dad's dying day we never were able to pick up that phone. What a sad misstep and what was the other part of it? SM (02:40:17): Yeah. Was there any difference between how your dad dealt with you and your two sisters? CM (02:40:22): I do not think so. My sisters are nine and six years older than I am. It really was quite, they were well off to college and beyond as I was growing up. But I know that they did not engage either on that topic. Now let me get to the issue of did my relationship as son of my father affect him, his decision making? It would be very egotistical of me to say yes. And yet I do believe that my choice of life and the direction that I have taken in life very much affected him, in fact. I think the fact that my sisters and I had friends who were very involved in leading the anti-war movement was insightful and impacted on him. He just did not let it be known. SM (02:41:21): We talked about the qualities of admitting, making a mistake and the regrets and so forth, but was there ever a feeling on the part of you or your sisters or maybe even your mom that if you have a problem with president Johnson over a policy just resign? CM (02:41:43): Well, I think most of my reflections on that are afterthought there again, just the age that I was during then. I would say absolutely my father is a man of tremendous integrity. And so I think you or I of this generation would say, well, if you feel differently, then you owe it to yourself, number one to your family and your nation. You demonstrate disagreement by resigning. And I just cannot put myself in his shoes and know what he felt about that. He goes back to this loyalty, which I think his generation must have had a different parameter and definition than I might. SM (02:42:38): Just in your own words, could you please, if someone were to come up to you like a high school student and you walk in and someone were to come up to you and say, "Who was Robert McNamara?" And you would describe your father or the leader, or how would you describe him to someone or particularly a young person? And also how would you describe your mom? Because I think your mom is very important here. She's very important in history and they are a team, in my opinion. I look at this, I see a twosome that became one. That is what marriage is supposed to be about. And just so in, how would you define both of them? CM (02:43:20): Well, individually first, right? SM (02:43:22): Yes. CM (02:43:24): I would respond to the question coming from a high school student or another person about who my father was as a very bright man and who truly loved humankind. A man who, well, one, he wanted the best or of both is deeply divided. The seven years that my father spent as Secretary of Defense determined the rest of his life. He lived, 1980 to the year 2009, lived another 29 years. Well, actually the time that he left Defense, (19)78, so that is (19)78, (19)88, (19)98, another 40 years to his life. And during those 40 years, his true ambition for the betterment of mankind and society came forward, advanced. He was able to advance that in such a significant way. And very, very few people in the United States understand that perspective. And I think that that is a tragedy, a loss. He was defined by Vietnam, and yet his defining moment during the next 40 years. SM (02:45:26): I think what you just said is very important. Craig, I will let you continue here in a second. Because as a person who believes in student development and believes in human development, and we tell students in college or that hopefully they learn this, that you are constantly evolving as a human being and it does not stop until the day you die. CM (02:45:46): Exactly. And in the case of a leader, it's our society's nature to pigeonhole them to a time of their lives, of greatness or of tremendous loss. And he has been defined by the latter. SM (02:46:13): How about your mom? CM (02:46:18): My mom, as my dad had said, was one of God's loveliest creatures. She had a sparkle in her eye. She had very, very beautiful blue eyes, which I inherited many things from my mom. My eyes, my name Craig was her maiden name. And I am so honored have my name Craig be in more of the Latin tradition where the mother also shares her name with the offspring. I am so happy to have the name Craig. And I am so moved and touched by her spirit and her connection to Mother Nature. She gifted that to me. It is something that you were very generous commenting on in your letter, our phone call, that is something that I have explored my whole life. And in terms of the educational programs we currently offer to do across California, it is the foundation. It is my foundation. It is what I do, my own family. It is what I do for students in California as the farm. SM (02:47:38): And you lead me right into the question, if someone to ask, who is Robert Craig McNamara? CM (02:47:49): Robert Craig McNamara is a reflection of both of his parents, both my parents and a person who has been moved and affected by the history that I have lived true. So although I did not serve in Vietnam, I certainly have been very affected by that. It is a part of me every day and my goals have been to really help making this world a better place for the individuals. SM (02:48:50): Did you feel that when you were in that one year at Stanford and maybe your junior and senior in high school, that any of your fellow students got on you for being the son of the person who was running the Vietnam War? CM (02:49:02): Absolutely. It was always on my mind. It was always in something that I had to demonstrate who I was, myself. It was a life altering pressure on me that I had to find out who I really was and be that honest person myself. And yes, I actually felt that in a certain way, that it was remarkable that people allowed me to be who I was and I did not get spit on, it did not take a [inaudible], or become violent. Because I know how frustrated I have been over our decision to go to war in Iraq, decision go to war today. I know the dark side of feelings against our leaders. So, I can imagine it how people must have felt about me that I was embodiment of my father, but I am not. SM (02:50:28): Right. CM (02:50:30): And I want to move this forward for one second. Dad was asked to come to UC Berkeley- SM (02:50:38): And Craig, could you speak up just a little bit, too? CM (02:50:39): Yeah. Dad was asked to come to UC Berkeley and I thought it before the Fog of War, but you may help me out here, may be before, in retrospect. And he came to Zellerbach Hall, which the largest hall in Berkeley. And he said he had never been back to Berkeley, it is his Alma mater, in many, many years. He certainly could not come back during the war years because he would have been protested against. And I think because of his World Bank experience and other experiences, he just had not been back. This was a beloved place for him. Because memories of meeting my mom and being a student at Berkeley. So, he was asked to come to Berkeley to speak on a retrospect for the Fog of War and it was packed. The auditorium was absolutely back to the audience outside. And I was very fearful for his life. And this was recently, this was within the last 10 years. And I felt very on edge in terms of reading the room, reading the audience, and if there was going to be any violent movement towards him, which is pretty remarkable for me to feel that at this point in my life or in our lives. And to be quite honest, his presence and his participation and his, at that point, transparency and honesty, I think really was received by the audience and was warmly responded-they may have totally just not liked him, but they appreciated the moment. SM (02:52:33): Yeah. Well I know Bobby Mueller and Bobby Mueller was on several panels with your dad over the last 10 years I believe. And here is a man who came back from Vietnam, very disenchanted. And Bobby was one of the people that said when he came back, he realized that Vietnam, or excuse me, that America is not always the good guy. Yet he could be on the stage with your dad and I know he respected your dad. So that says a lot when Bobby can say really nice things about some of the things that happened to him during that time. CM (02:53:07): This is Bobby Mueller? SM (02:53:08): Yeah, Bobby Mueller. CM (02:53:09): And did he serve in Vietnam? SM (02:53:11): Yeah, he was the founder of Vietnam Veterans of America. CM (02:53:16): Yeah. SM (02:53:19): And I believe if you go into YouTube you will see your dad being interviewed by that professor. It is a show that they had and it is a tremendous interview. It is an hour and 10 minutes. CM (02:53:31): That is a great one. Do you remember the year of that? SM (02:53:34): It had to be the time that he went probably for this speech because he talked about it in retrospect, he was not there. CM (02:53:40): It was retrospect. Yeah. SM (02:53:42): Yeah. It was not for Fog of War. I would like your comments here. I am up to this point where after Norman Morrison, a Quaker father of three, burned himself only 40 feet from your dad's window at the Pentagon on November 2nd of (19)65. Your dad states in the book, this is very important. " I knew Marge" is it Marge? CM (02:54:02): Margie SM (02:54:04): "I knew Margie and our three children shared many of Morrison's feelings about the war, as did the wives and children of several of my cabinet colleagues. And I believed I understood and shared some of his thoughts." The war, I cannot read my writing here, it was much more, "this was much more Marge and I and the children should have talked about. Yet at moments like this, I often turned inward instead. It was a grave weakness. The episode created tension at home that only deepened as dissent and criticism of the war continued to grow." CM (02:54:51): Absolutely. Absolutely. SM (02:54:54): And that was in the mid (19)90s when he wrote in retrospect, or early (19)90s. CM (02:55:04): So the touching reflection there is that he held that inside of him for all those years. If he could have brought that forward in a memoir earlier, I think it would have provided some healing for us, for our nation. Not a mea culpa that is gone. When you let something fester for 25 years, it is just insurmountable. I am proud of him for coming to that point in his life. And I wished for all of us, for me, for our nation, for the Vietnamese, for the men and women of the United States died and served. For everybody who was touched globally by Vietnam. I wish my father had been able. SM (02:55:57): Right. Hold on one second. My door here. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Craig McNamara https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0958a10072e2675e3b4c52f8793a981b.jpg 3546da3cb245068facbde3078fade021 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ac67bccba8b430d1a314ba7ea6a7a9cd.mp3 e2e0f77bdb8eefe0860b80cc9f092084 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-10-29 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Craig McNamara2 Biographical Text Craig McNamara is the son of Robert McNamara, former Secretary of Defense during the John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Baines Johnson administrations. He is the President and owner of Sierra Orchards, a diversified farming operation producing organic walnuts and olive oil. He also serves as founder and president of the Center For Land-Based Learning, an innovative program, which assists high school students in building greater human and social capital in their communities. McNamara currently is the President of the California State Board of Food and Agriculture. He has a Bachelor's degree in Plant and Soil Science from the University of California, Davis. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 5:50 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Kennedy family; Civil Rights Movement; 1960s; 1970s; Malcom X; Generation. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Craig McNamara2 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3e73f47f731f8b10ed18115ab9103629.jpg fc7b95e159c814a0cbf2f1cd8fbd1ba1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c1398cd6b96e5c333e0aca3ad3ec64be.mp3 01e191ed824b14b49955ef664dc4f766 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Curt Weldon Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 72:42 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Curt Weldon is a politician who served as a Republican member of the United States House of Representatives. He was vice-chair of the Armed Services Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee, as well as the co-chair of the Duma-Congress Study Group. Weldon received his Bachelor's degree in Russian Studies from the West Chester University of Pennsylvania. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Kent State; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam Memorial; Civil Rights Movement; Lynden Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Watergate."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Kent State; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam Memorial; Civil Rights Movement; Lyndon Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Watergate. Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Weldon, Curt--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Curtis Weldon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weldon, Curt ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Weldon, Curt--Interviews Description An account of the resource Curt Weldon is a politician who served as a Republican member of the United States House of Representatives. He was vice-chair of the Armed Services Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee, as well as the co-chair of the Duma-Congress Study Group. Weldon received his Bachelor's degree in Russian Studies from the West Chester University of Pennsylvania. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.170a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.170b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 72:42 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e346c6dbb9c5700f12b3049719af353b.jpg d3c60a65f11236d381e4412dd6b0b0e5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/701d506a875c8952152be82530c442cc.mp3 8c263f71197a48cb604d638922da3ede Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1997-09-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dan Fraley Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15171,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"9":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dan Fraley is a veteran who served during the Vietnam War. He currently is the Director of the Veterans Affairs in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. "}">Dan Fraley is a distinguished Marine who served during the Vietnam War. For decades he has dedicated his life to serving Vietnam veterans, especially those who were exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam. He has been on a mission to make sure that these veterans know about their benefits related to this service. He is the founder and the current director of the Veterans Affairs in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Baby boom generation; College anti-war protests; Civil Rights Movement; Questioning of authority; Emergence of a middle class; Lack of trust; Jane Fonda."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Baby boom generation; College anti-war protests; Civil Rights Movement; Questioning of authority; Emergence of a middle class; Lack of trust; Jane Fonda. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 125:55 Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Fraley, Dan--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dan Fraley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fraley, Dan ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Fraley, Dan--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dan Fraley is a distinguished Marine who served during the Vietnam War. For decades he has dedicated his life to serving Vietnam veterans, especially those who were exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam. He has been on a mission to make sure that these veterans know about their benefits related to this service. He is the founder and the current director of the Veterans Affairs in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-09-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.189a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.189b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 125:55