67 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8dfd6422a234fcca93bab748053df91d.jpg 07751645b0ce2901c1e66c57c7ee66d1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/52a458c9d820a6eb523e5de8f755295f.mp3 84fa2b5f9a06fdde624944cf6d58dadd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-09-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Minnie Bruce Pratt Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Minnie Pratt Bruce, born in Selma, Alabama, is an American educator, activist and essayist. She is also a Professor of Writing and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University, where she was invited to help develop the university’s first LGBT Study Program. Dr. Bruce has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Alabama and a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of North Carolina."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Minnie Pratt Bruce, born in Selma, Alabama, is an American educator, activist and essayist. She is also a Professor of Writing and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University, where she was invited to help develop the university’s first LGBT Study Program. Dr. Bruce has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Alabama and a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of North Carolina."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Minnie Bruce Pratt</span></span><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Minnie Pratt Bruce, born in Selma, Alabama, is an American educator, activist and essayist. She is also a Professor of Writing and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University, where she was invited to help develop the university’s first LGBT Study Program. Dr. Bruce has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Alabama and a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of North Carolina."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">, born in Selma, Alabama, is an American educator, activist, and essayist. She is also a Professor of Writing and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University, where she was invited to help develop the university’s first LGBT Studies Program. Dr. Pratt has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Alabama and a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of North Carolina.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Southern segregation; White supremacy; Black Panthers; SNCC; Women's liberation; LGBT; Oppression struggles; Response to violent protests; Baby boom generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Southern segregation; White supremacy; Black Panthers; SNCC; Women's liberation; LGBT; Oppression struggles; Response to violent protests; Baby boom generation.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 93:56 Subject LCSH College teachers; Political activists--United States; Syracuse University; Pratt, Minnie Bruce--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Minnie Bruce Pratt Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Pratt, Minnie Bruce ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; Political activists--United States; Syracuse University; Pratt, Minnie Bruce--Interviews Description An account of the resource Minnie Bruce Pratt, born in Selma, Alabama, is an American educator, activist and essayist. She is also a Professor of Writing and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University in Syracuse, New York, where she was invited to help develop the university’s first LGBT Studies Program. Dr. Pratt has a B.A. from the University of Alabama and a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of North Carolina. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.182 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 93:56 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8d5394a5fba16d06a0c580ad18e29c97.jpg 70973c854a47998ba29fb872ac3b8c56 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ec29310de27fe74d47533913e95c11f5.MP3 3cc7bd834caff21836c8b56b8203a797 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Mitch Pearlstein Biographical Text Dr. Mitch Pearlstein is an editorial writer, columnist and founder and former President at the Center of the American Experiment. Prior to that, he served in the U.S. Department of Education, during the Reagan and George H. W. Bush administrations. He received his Bachelor's degree in Political Science from Binghamton University, and he has a Ph.D. in Education Administration from the University of Minnesota. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:18:32 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Baby Boomer generation; Binghamton University Guarneri String Quartet; American policy; 1960s; Young Americans for Freedom; Anti-War Movement; Vietnam War Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dr. Mitch Pearlstein Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 SM: First off Mitch, I want to thank you very much for doing this. I appreciate it very much and– 00:07 MP: Happy to. 00:07 SM: Yep, the first question I try to ask most of the people I have interviewed is to tell us a little bit about your background, where you grew up, your early family life, your early years before you even attended Harpur College. And some of the impact of that early life on your life. 00:25 MP: Well, that will take the first hour, that is not bad. I grew up in Queens. It was born the actually in Brooklyn, the old Bedbell Hospital, which is I have been told the Brookhaven Medical Center and has been that for a long, long time, but do not hold me to any of that. I am 71. Spent the seven years, in Sunnyside in Queens, Long Island City. I am the first of three kids. My brother Robert is twenty months my junior and my sister Andy, who I say is Andrea and she says Andrea, she is nine years my junior. So we were in Sunnyside, as I say, for seven years at PS 150 which is where David Horowitz went to school go I think seven years before I was there. We moved to Far Rockaway in, also in Queens right on the beach, when I was I suspect seven and started off at PS 215. Over time that led to junior high school 180 and then Far Rockaway High School. My father was in sales and for a period, was in management- if you are familiar with the Modells Shoppers World? 01:32 SM: Oh, yeah. 02:05 MP: He was with them for a long, long time. He actually was with a firm called the [inaudible] “D" as in "dog", A, "V" as in "victor," E, G A sporting goods and they were purchased by Modells or [inaudible] in the late (19)50s or so. So he had essentially his entire career there. My mother did not work outside of the home until all the kids left home. And my father was not pleased about his wife working outside of the home, quite traditional in that sense. At the risk of sounding unkind and all it was not an educated family from which I came, at least in terms of school credentials and all. My father was a high school graduate, my mother was a high school dropout her parents never learned how to read. I was one of the first people in the family, certainly on my mother's side to go to college. I was a wonderful student up and through sixth grade. I tell people I did poorly in high school and junior high school because I had worked so hard and sixth grade I had burned out. Not too many people believe this. I was lazy as the short answer. We want to get what therapeutic, I was troubled in some fashion. I just did not do my work. And this was early in the baby boomer time, going off to college, meaning there were more kids to school than they were in necessarily seats. And I had a hard time getting in any place. I graduated high school barely I suspect, in (19)66- my test scores were pretty good- when I say just barely [inaudible] and see what I suspect. I got out of high school well enough but I had done lousy and the City University system to its great credit and through my everlasting gratitude put together very-very quickly for the class graduating in (19)66, City University College centers they were called attached to I think five of the community colleges, and these were places where kids who could not even get into a community college at the time and the SUNY system. And that saved me, I do not know, I do not remember exactly what I would have done, it would, if that had not happened I would've gone to school someplace, but probably would have cost me or my family. So I attended for one year. And these were one year programs, The City University College Center at New York City Community College, which is a mouthful, was in a warehouse in downtown Brooklyn. And this is when I came to realize that beer is a far better motivator than self-esteem or anything of the sort. At least that was my interpretation afterwards. I figured that this was my last chance. If I continued to screw up, I would not have a career. So I worked very hard, and did quite well. And after one semester, I had a 3.8 if I recall. 02:05 SM: Yep. Oh, that is great. 06:00 MP: And applied, I said I was going to apply to the four university centers in the SUNY system. And the way it worked, I think Stony Brook's application came in first, but they did not want to stay on Long Island. Binghamton came in second. So I applied to Binghamton. One of them, Albany or Buffalo never came in and I just did not bother with the other because I knew with the 3.8 I was pretty good for Binghamton to offer. And that is the way it worked. So that was a turning point. I did well academically and over the next several years, sometimes I did exceed extremely well, academically and another times not. It always had to do with my working hard or not working hard or being involved in the antiwar movement, frankly. 06:56 SM: Right. 06:57 MP: Or having my heart broken by some female. And that is a rough description- 07:06 SM: Well, that fits right into the- 07:07 MP: [inaudible] my life until I got to Binghamton, you know. 07:11 SM: Yeah that, my next question was, how and why did you choose Harpur? You just explained it beautifully. And but the some of the questions I wanted to ask about your Harpur years here is, what activities were you involved in at the school, including some of the groups you joined? And how would you describe your four years at Binghamton between (19)67 and (19)70, ah (19)66, I guess (19)67 and (19)70, your three years. 07:17 MP: Thank you. Yeah, it was three years. I came in as a sophomore. I played baseball, I was a pitcher on the baseball team. I had grown up playing baseball. As a kid. I was pretty decent. Played in high school, but I was not so decent then, they were better players that I was at the time. Got to Harpur and got on to the baseball team. I was a pitcher and I actually started opening day and my junior year. 08:13 SM: Wow. 08:14 MP: Yeah, guess who I do not recall necessarily. I did beat Stony Brook in a complete seven inning game, was part of a doubleheader and that was as a junior. 08:24 SM: Wow. 08:24 MP: But overall, I had a losing record in the lousy ERA. But I have remained close friends with my old coach. For example, John Affleck. AFFLECK. Who, looking back, he was not much older than the ballplayers at the time. He is in Florida now, has been there for a while though, he summers in Ontario. I have not seen him since I was in Binghamton last which was, I think for my 40th class reunion, so that would have been nine years ago, but we stay in touch a couple of times a year with emails back and forth and some of the old ballplayers are people who myself stay in touch with. If someone is sick, and someone sends out an email about how folks are doing or something, perhaps happier, we will have a couple of emails going between and among us. That will happen about twice a year. 09:30 SM: Do you [inaudible]- Do you remember coach Schum? 09:35 MP: Oh, of course him. Very well. I remember all of the coaches for the most part, I suspect quite well, in part, in large part because I was a student there. And then I worked there, we will get to that. And then I was a reporter for the Sun-Bulletin and I did sports for a while so I knew these folks reasonably well, yeah. 09:58 SM: Yeah, coach Schum was, did all the gym classes. And I remember going to my first gym class there. And he did not read the names off. He read the social security numbers off. [laughs] Yeah. And he said, "Alright, you should know your social security number by now." And, of course I knew I did not. And-and so he is reading all the social security numbers and he comes to mine, and then he just says it again. And I, "McKiernan!" I never forgot my social security number after that. What, Mitch, you were involved, talk about some of the, your out of classroom experiences that were during your years at Binghamton, whether it be involved in any protests or activist activities, going to meet speakers that came to campus during that very tumultuous time, any programs and inspired you, just things that happened during those three years before you graduated in (19)70? 10:12 MP: Did he really? Well, let us, uh, technically, I graduated in (19)71. I was seven credits short. But I got the bureaucracy a couple of years later to change my class to what I viewed as my real class, (19)70. So, when I get a mailing, it will say Pearlstein (19)70, which probably illegal where that is concerned, in the interest of full disclosure. We will get into, let us let us delay for a moment the political stuff and the anti-war stuff. We will talk about a couple of other things. I have spoken about on a number of occasions out here about how the Guarneri String Quartet, you remember Guarneri? 11:58 SM: Oh, yeah, they were excellent. Yes. 12:00 MP: More than excellent. Guarneri, they had formed, I think, only about two years earlier (19)65. And they were in residence at Binghamton starting in about (19)67. And I do not read music, I had no real musical background at the time, other than being in the chorus in seventh grade and carousel, at junior high school 180, then being kicked out of Oklahoma, like, in eighth grade because I finally realized I could not sing. So I had no real musical background. But I would attend their rehearsals, they would do rehearsals in the dorms, in the lounges of the dorms. And when they were in Champlain where I was like, I would sit in. And to me, it was just fascinating to hear not just the great music, but they would play about four bars, and then they would stop and talk about it or argue about it. And they would hear things that I simply would not hear. And that has been a metaphor in some respects. I am a passionate listener of Minnesota Public Radio, classical Minnesota Public Radio, I listen all the time, I have not listened to anything else for a while. Probably could use a little variety. I have been on a radio show that they, oh excuse me, a feature that they do Minnesotans and their music. And they had me on about half dozen years ago, I talked about what kind of music moves me and talking about classical music. And I would tell the Guarneri story. That sticks with me that really does. What sticks with me also is life in the dorm in Champlain. When I was back nine years ago for the 40th, number of us from Champlain were interviewed and I made the point that something along the lines, when you live in a dorm you got to do what is right. Otherwise people will think you are a jerk. It is your family. And people think you are a jerk. That is not going to be good for you. So you work hard. I worked hard. Not that it was all that hard to do what was right. I am not expressing this real well. I was not going to do anything terribly wrong, but it was a matter of being just a good classmate, a good citizen. And that was my family and that sticks with me, we will leave various affairs of the heart out of this conversation. I was a political science major, and at times, I was really quite good. And other times I was not so good as a student, I was sporadic as that. I did not join a whole bunch of things. And this might be the segue to talking about various political and anti-war activities. Going back to growing up again, I grew up in a very let us just say, left-leaning environment. First of all, it was Queens, it was New York City, it was the (19)60s. My father had grown up, if not as a socialist, very much to the left, as was the whole family as was the entire environment. Jewish environment, lower middle class environment. He was a member of workman circle. Folks are familiar with that fraternal organization, which is interesting, very much on the left, but very much anti-communist. We can get into it, perhaps remind me, that I am all for conservatives who have been anti-communists, but most conservatives have never met one. Whereas people on the web certainly have not. It has been their responsibility in many instances, to purge bad communist influences from different kinds of organizations. We can talk about Max Kampelman, if you would like, you would have to remind me to do that. But at any rate, I was not perpetually part of that political ethos. And in (19)65, when I was 17, and William F. Buckley Jr., Bill Buckley, ran for mayor of New York, I worked on his campaign. Not in a senior position, I assure you, I handed out literature in Rockaway. And this was, let us just say any number of family members were taken aback by this. And they were hoping that it was a phase but it was not a phase. There was something about Buckley that I responded to quite well, there was something about politics of him, responsible right side of the aisle that I responded to quite well. And, in keeping with that, I supported US policy in Vietnam when I was in high school and through my freshman year at-at the City University College Center in New York City Community College. And I was still supportive of US policy when I got to Binghamton in the fall of (19)67. Needless to say, the environment was quite different. Not that anybody was thinking over the head change. It was not until, if I recall correctly around December of (19)67, that I began to think differently, Harrison Salisbury, the journalist from Minnesota actually, came to town to give a lecture. And he made it clear to me at the time that for the United States to win, it would have to do some things that would simply be unacceptable, such as "Bomb the dikes," as I recall him saying. And in time, during that period, I came out against US policy. A key point to keep in mind here is that while many of the people in the anti-war movement, particularly those who were clearly on the left, wanted, wanted the US to lose, and who thought that American involvement in Southeast Asia was a sign of US evil. I, on the other hand, did not view it as a good thing if the United States was to lose, and that it was not, American involvement of Vietnam was not sign of anything sinister about the United States. But it had been a mistake, it was a well-intentioned albeit mistake, to get involved in the way that we did. And sometime as we approached, got into my senior year, as you may recall, that was when I suspect you may have talked to other people about this, that a coalition was pulled together. Under, if I recall correctly, the heading was a student mobilization committee. And by the way, I have on my wall poster that we did. That said, something about- I can get exact language if I get up and walk four feet, about, talking about the war, talking about it together at the courthouse at noon, on October 15 (19)69 which corresponded with the big first student mobilization day in DC. And I was asked to be, or wound up, as a member of that coalition, we were talking about good friends like Ivan Charter, with whom I am still very much in touch with. I interviewed him for the last book. And we have spoken to friends with Kathy and we plan on being at Binghamton for our 50th come next year. Elliot Maisie was part of that as well. If you remember, if you have ever heard the name, Peter Gellert, GELLERT, Peter was a member of the Socialist Workers Party, a real-life Marxist. Who still is, by the way is living in Mexico has been there for a long time. He was part of the coalition. And I became in some ways the spokesman for this group, Ivan was the chair of great leadership skills. Elliot made the great organizational skills. I was the spokesman because I could get along reasonably well with all elements in this coalition. And I spoke reasonably well, interested in the media. So I was the one on October 15 (19)69, to represent SMC on the podium, in front of City Hall during that during that demonstration. Julian Bond, by the way, was in town and he also spoke and- 22:51 SM: Wow. 22:51 MP: -what I recall, it was the women in the crowd being far-far more interested in what he had to say than what I had to say. So, I was quite involved in antiwar activities, though, my interpretation of things, my sense of the country was often quite different from those of many of the people at school. 23:26 SM: Yeah, I, what is amazing about those years of Binghamton, I can remember being in the Union many times and, and the theatre group would, Guerrilla Theater would come in. Do you remember that happening all the time? Where the– 23:40 MP: Vaguely [crosstalk] 23:41 SM: Yeah, I think they come out of nowhere. And I have done some studies on Guerilla Theater during the (19)60s, and it was so very creative, very anti-war. Then there was another event that you might remember that really, I came to school one morning, and the entire quad in front of the administration building had signs on it. And it was like, they were all anti-war signs. And a group- 24:07 MP: Yeah, I vaguely recall that as well, that might have been the year prior, but I could be wrong. 24:13 SM: Yeah. Well, I do not think the administration liked the fact that it was done. But- 24:17 MP: I suspect not, no. 24:17 SM: [laughs] No, but it was almost there was no space on that quad there were so many signs put up and it was it was very well done. You walk through it. And then I can remember also when Governor Rockefeller came to campus to open the garden there near the theater department, that that open area there and I remember students protesting on Vestal Parkway and trying to block him coming in because they he kind of represented the establishment and so forth. And then of course the-the Harpur did not have any, they did not allow ROTC on campus and whenever the military recruiters came, the students protested in the administration building. So, there is, there is a lot. 25:00 MP: Yeah, I protested. I was opposed to those protests. I remember when Rockefeller was on campus, and I was very much opposed to the protests against him. As I say, I was not [inaudible] at that point this was prior to (19)69. I was, my goodness, by the student radical standards of the day, I was some kind of right winger, I would imagine. But I was opposed to various protests of various kinds. I was, frankly, I was more of a moderate, I was more of an establishmentarian. As I said before, the key was that I did not view American involvement in Vietnam or anyplace else as a sign that we were a rotten nation, did not see it that way at all. 25:55 SM: If you were describ- if you were to put a label, and I know, I do not like labels many times but if you were to put a label on yourself, you told me about your high school years and your first year at Cooney. What about when you were Harper would you con- be considered a conservative, a liberal or you do not want to be the either-either one? 26:14 MP: Well working backwards, I am the founder of a conservative free market think tank in Minnesota. We have been up and running for 29 years. I worked in the Reagan administration at the end of the US Department of Education in the first couple of years. The first Bush administration, well a year each I suspect, this was back in (19)87 through (19)90. So in real ways, I am a conservative now. I arrived at Binghamton, as I was saying, liking Bill Buckley. I modeled, by the way, a senator of the American Experiment the think tank, after Bill Buckley in many ways, civil and academic. And we would have people on this show. And they would be quite decent to each other. But the conversation was vivid. That is how I to make American Experiment. In many ways, this is exactly how we have been for going on three decades. I would have viewed myself by (19)69, (19)70. I was, you know it is a good question. Left, right. Did not does not feel right. At this moment, thinking back that way. Not that that sentence makes any sense. Maybe the best way. A moderate of the times or a moderate- among antiwar activists, I was more moderate than many. How is that? 27:52 SM: Mitch, that is a good description. I think it is excellent. The- would you consider the campus itself, now consider the student body during that time that you were at Binghamton, and you can include not only the time that you were a student there, but I know you also worked for the president. That that came into power after Dr. Deering. Would you consider the campus an activist campus? 28:38 MP: Following back up for a second, I did not work in the administration until (19)72. And that was when [inaudible] Bill McGrath became president. It was not right after Deering. I think Stew Gordon was right after Deering. So there was this interlude, and I was well out of school by the time Peter arrived in (19)72. Was it an activist campus? Sure. in spirit, we were blowing up things, as was the case some other places and that was good. That was very good. But it certainly was. Call it a counterculture ish kind of activism, in many ways when I got there. And when did you get there, by the way? 29:39 SM: Well I got there in (19)67. 29:41 MP: Yeah, that is exactly when I got there. If I recall correctly, the enrollment was a grand total of 2700. 29:46 SM: Yes, it is yes. 29:49 MP: And in terms of some demographics, and I have written about this, I cannot recall more than a half a dozen, conceivably a dozen African American students on campus at the time, things there and elsewhere in American education, higher education changed dramatically starting a year later after Dr. King was assassinated. So this was an exceedingly white place, an exceedingly downstate place, an exceedingly Jewish place. Other places has hippies, we had sickies as you may recall, I was not a sickie by any stretch for heaven's sakes, I was a baseball player. And I remember writing a letter through what was still the colonial news about how the sickies were making an absolute mess of the Student Center. They were slobs, they were leaving stuff all over the place and it was a political statement, I suspect, to be slobs. I was not that. I might not have been the tidiest person that my wife now can tell you that that is indeed the case. But I was certainly not have that lefty counterculture artistic spirit. I was a social science major. We played baseball. But I got along well, as I have always gotten along well with just about everybody. 31:31 SM: I think one of the things, you look at the culture, I look a lot at the music that was brought to the campus during that timeframe that we were there. And when you think of the names of Richie Havens, The Turtles. 31:47 MP: Yeah. 31:48 SM: Yeah, you have got The Chambers Brothers. You got Judy Collins, you have got Ella Fitzgerald. Remember she sang in concert there along- 31:57 MP: I was at that one, I remember that one. 31:59 SM: Yeah, that was unbelievable. Duke Ellington came, Oscar Peterson, Paul Butterfield Blues was loved by the Harpur students, they loved him. And-and of course, we had Mountain there and-and Arlo Guthrie and Lovin' Spoonful, the music, and of course, how can you forget the concert with Iron Butterfly, the concert that they thought they had two sets booked and they only had one and the Harpur students were on stage breaking the guy's drumsticks because they wanted to have two sets. But the music was really kind of counterculture when you think about it. 32:39 MP: And yeah, I will buy that. So, you are talking to someone who had a crush on Lainie Kazan from (19)63 to (19)70. So musically, I was not necessarily in that spirit. I was a [inaudible] well want to be forever known in the archives as being an old fart. Yeah, sure. Why not. 33:13 SM: [laughs] Okay, I got that down there now, Nick. And that has to be quoted at the 50th anniversary, the old fart. [laughs] I think you have already answered this one too, did you know at BU that you wanted, what you wanted to become in life? Well, you know, you are talking about your experiences of you know, difficulty with school in the beginning, and then becoming a very good student. And again, doing excellent on tests coming to a very academic school and Harpur, and being a political science major. I know you have gone on to create a- an unbelievable organization, something you should be very proud of. I mean, historic. But did you did you know what you were going to become? How are you evolving during that time as a person as you were approaching that graduation day in (19)70? 34:06 MP: Good question. Part of the context is where any number of our classmates simply assume they wanted to be doctors or lawyers. I did not grow up in that kind of environment. I had high school friends and junior high school friends who did grow up in that environment and did become lawyers and doctors and rich people. But that simply was not my environment with lower middle class. I did want to be a lawyer I think for about a day and a half while I was at Harpur but I overcame, it must have been a drug reaction or something or other. What I recall, I recall wanting to be a political speech writer. I could write well, I was interested in politics. And there was something about being a speech writer that intrigued me. That or I assumed that I would wind up in a decent job in middle management someplace. So my aspirations in that instance, were not all that high. And were constricted by the fact that I just did not know much about more elevated professions earlier on. Also, it is interesting, I think back. I probably felt more pressure every semester, that Binghamton, not because it was Binghamton, but because taking college seriously taking, well, in this instance, taking my undergraduate life seriously, it was hard. And I had to force myself to do my work sometimes, because I was not consistently disciplined. And at some level, I do not want to overstate this, but at some level, I wanted to drop acid about every semester. I never got close to doing that. But that was the sense that I had and when I talked about sometimes being a good student, sometimes not. There were a couple of classes where I was the only "A" there in that particular class. [inaudible] I think, Richard Dec Legion, and another. On other occasions, I just screwed up terribly. And as things turned out, I did wind up as a speechwriter. I wound up later on as a speech writer for Peter McGraw. When we got out here to Minnesota, I was a speech writer out here for three years. And several years later, I was the speech writer for about two years for the governor, for a guy by the name of Al Quie, QUIE, that was (19)81, (19)82. So that worked out, and I did do my stints in Washington at the Department of Education. I was an editorial writer and a columnist for The St. Paul paper. That was (19)83 to (19)87. So that was in keeping with a spirit of what I was thinking earlier, I had never viewed myself thinking back while I was in school as a potential journalist. I thought I wrote well enough, frankly, I knew I wrote well enough. But I never thought I could write fast enough to be a journalist. And yeah, here is a, here is a chapter that is interesting. You remember, David Bernstein, who was the editor and co-owner of the Sun-Bulletin who ran for Congress in (19)70. 38:15 SM: Yes. 38:17 MP: I was on his staff. I got paid $50 a week, somehow I could live on that. And I was an advanced person, I guess, I guess, the best way of describing what I did, and he lost as to be expected, as a Democrat. And I wound up right after that, working for him, pulling together a collection of his editorials. And he wrote one virtually every day, from the middle of (19)61, when he bought the paper and this is now at the end of (19)70. And his wife, Adele, was very much interested in doing a collection of his pieces. He was a brilliant writer, as clear as clean as you could possibly imagine. Got a job as working for him. And I read every single editorial he wrote during that period, and I would pull out excerpts. And the idea was to make a book out of them. And it would have been a fine book, but he lost interest. But this was a number of recessions ago and every time I finished a degree it seemed that it was a recession. And I needed a job. And he offered me a job as a reporter at the Sun-Bulletin. And I turned down because I as I say, I did not think I could write fast enough. He offered is again, I turned them down again. And by the third time I said yes, needed a job and I remember to the extent that I could remember anything for the first three weeks, hardly ever picking up my hand from my desk. I was concentrating so hard on what I was doing. But I was a reporter there, and did that for 13 months until getting to the heart of our conversation. I guess in some respect, though, this is now the (19)70s. I resigned one morning at 1:30 in the morning, after doing my police rounds, I was a police reporter at that point. And this was a night Nixon announced the mining of Haiphong and the bombing of Hanoi. 40:34 SM: Right. 40:35 MP: And I said that it, and I did civil disobedience by 7:30 in the morning, in front of the old, I guess was the old courthouse or the federal courthouse. In, in in Binghamton. So that was the end of that portion of my journalistic career. I wound up again, as an editorial writer at The Pioneer Press newspaper in St. Paul, state from (19)83 to (19)87. It was after doing that for four years, I went off to Washington. I did not give you a clear sequencing of that period. If you want, I can do that. 41:20 SM: I know, you also got your PhD at the University of Minnesota, correct? 41:25 MP: Yeah, I am going to forget that. 41:26 SM: Oh, okay. [laughs] 41:29 MP: The idea, the idea was for me when I came out here with-with Peter, in (19)74. And I can, now that is a good story, frankly, if you want to get into that though it is not the (19)60s. The idea was for me to work for him part time, and go to graduate school, part time. And once I got out here, I knew that was not going to work, there was too much work to do for Peter, and I needed more money than being paid half time. So I essentially put off graduate school for three years, I think, four courses during that interim. And then it was time to go back full time to graduate school. So I, I left Peter's employ in (19)77. And I was a full time graduate student from (19)77 to (19)80. And I wound up doing frankly, about the fastest PhD, I know. I worked very, very hard. I was terrifically disciplined and the fact that I had just gotten divorced, and I had a lot of time on my hands. And I finished off in (19)80 and I was I was good as a, as a graduate student, wrote a, if I do say so, an exceedingly good dissertation on Jewish attitudes towards affirmative action admissions in higher education. 42:54 SM: Wow. 42:55 MP: And I finished off and found out that the academic world and other worlds could care less that I had just done that. 43:05 SM: Well, that is– 43:06 MP: What I– 43:07 SM: Wow. 43:07 MP: -that is working for Al Quie-took a while. But I wound up working as a speech writer. And my first thought was, I had been a speech writer. And I went to graduate school to get a doctorate. So, I would not necessarily have to be a speech writer, I could write for myself. But then I realized I needed a job again, and too being a speechwriter for a governor who I respected a great deal was, as they say, not chopped liver. And that turned out to be a great experience. 43:40 SM: Before we go on to the-the organization that you created, the major organization, I want to ask some just some general questions about the (19)60s, the (19)60s and the early (19)70s. What has been the overall impact of your generation, the boomer generation on America? And, you know, if it is positive, why and if it is negative why? 44:06 MP: I like macro questions, whether or not I am prepared to answer I do not know. The clichéd answer, which is not to say it is incorrect, is that the (19)60s were a time of expanding social justice. Women, certainly. racial minorities, certainly. Maybe the early Inklings when it comes to gay rights, the environment, certainly all that is, is well known and much of it is to be admired and be thankful for, no question. At the same time you I often view the (19)60s as when the United States got real close to having a nervous breakdown. And that was not good. Not necessarily as logical and as rational sometimes, as we needed to be. Too emotional. What do they, I forget who wrote it. Could have been a conservative rabbi. This goes back some time I am guessing in the (19)80s when he paid his respects as I do, to religious conservatives, mostly Christian, who saved the country from going nuts in Thailand. And that-that sense of order, which is not to say, an excessive or undemocratic, unfree sense of order, but I believe an ordered liberty, let us put it that way. I like that term. I liked the concept. And we needed people on the right to say, "Hey, let us slow down, let us think this one through, let us not get completely crazy. Let us not assume for a moment that the Vietcong were really the good guys and they were a bunch of agrarian reformers." Rooting for the communists to win is never a good idea. So, I look back on the (19)60s, I am proud of what I did, for the most part. I wish we had done something different in the antiwar movement. Without question, we thought too poorly of the country. Without question we treated soldiers dreadfully. Without question, we assumed the other side were a bunch of good guys often, and to our activisting. So, it very much of a of a mixed bag. You know, I think that the one time, I am not real proud of how I viewed matters back then, was the night of Kent State. 47:39 SM: Oh yeah. 47:39 MP: Which was what, something like May 4th of (19)70, something like that? 47:43 SM: Yeah, yes. 47:44 MP: And we had a big meeting at I guess it was in the, could have been women's gym, what was then the gym-gym, I guess? And remember the name Tommy Tuchman? 48:00 SM: Oh, yes. 48:02 MP: Tommy was a friend. He was up there speaking. And he was he was being a tad extreme and crowd was going nuts in support of what he was saying, and this was not good. And I find myself caught up in that. I had been really, really angered by Kent State and that was one time I was going over the line. And being a radical in spirit, and say I am not a radical person by any stretch and have not been. I think some of the excessive identity politics of this era now and going back decades, certainly grew out of the (19)60s. I think we have spent far too much time in this country, though I understand why focusing on questions of race and ethnicity. Not good. And that certainly grew out of the out of the (19)60s. I used the term back then. It came to me in about, might have been around (19)72. But do not hold me to that, naive cynicism. And there was a lot of naive cynicism at the time. In many ways. I saw that and still see that as a paramount sense at the time. It is one thing to be cynical, if you have to use the expression, been around the block several times, you have some age to and you are cynical. I think [inaudible] cynical is overstating matters, you should not be, but it is understandable. But when you are 19 years old, and you do not know very much, and you are cynical, that does not fit. It does not fit the decency of this nation. It is not good for your mental health. It is not in keeping with reality. And to the, again, the extent that I have problems with the (19)60s into the (19)70s, it is precisely that. And when we talk about the (19)60s, as you well know, it is not just the (19)60s, it is well into the (19)70s. 50:47 SM: Yes. 50:48 MP: And so much of the craziness. And the rest that we associate with the (19)60s, stretch into the (19)70s, and often got started in the (19)70s. 51:06 SM: And, Mitch, I want your thoughts on this too, when I interviewed Lee Edwards, and of course, he is a great historian himself. And he teaches a course on the (19)60s at the at a Catholic school in Washington right now. And one thing that stuck out in that interview more than anything else was when historians or sociologists or people who write about the (19)60s or experienced the (19)60s, it is always about the liberal activists. You do not hear– 51:34 MP: Right. 51:34 SM: -about the conservative activist, and we are talking about when you talk about the antiwar movement, the Young Americans for Freedom are never discussed. Yet they were conservative, but they were against the war, too. 51:49 MP: You are absolutely right. And I think I mentioned this to you in one of our previous conversations. And I am happy you have brought that up. Yeah, it shows a certain myopia on my part, that I am just thinking of the left, but without question. [inaudible] were the roots of Goldwater, they were the roots of Reagan, as it turned out a dozen years later, if you were starting off in (19)68. Absolutely, absolutely true. A couple of books. I think I have mentioned Rick Perlstein to you. 52:28 SM: Yes-yes. Yes. I think I have all his books. 52:31 MP: Yeah, who is not a relative. He spells his name wrong. That is the reason why. But I thought his book on Goldwater was terrific. And I was not the only person on the right, who viewed it as terrifically fair, as it was, and he is a person of the left. So that is, and one needs to take all that into account. In many ways. That spirit, that movement has had more to do with shaping the nation, or at least as much over the subsequent decades as stuff on the left. And David from his book about the (19)70s. I forget what it was called. But he writes about how so much of what we associate with the (19)60s is really the (19)70s that has shaped so much. Oh, absolutely [inaudible] you. 53:29 SM: So, there is this obser- Mitch, there is another observation. If you remember Colonel Harry Summers, who passed away in I think around (20)00, he wrote the almanac on the Vietnam War, and, and we were going to have at West Chester University to talk at our traveling Vietnam memorial. But he- 53:48 MP: Were ya? 53:49 SM: -he became so sick, he could not come. But he said he, well his speech was going to center on the fact that when you when professors are teaching, the (19)60s in on university campuses today, he says what they always forget to conclude in the teaching, is the military point of view. I am not, he said, "I am not saying it is right, but you have got to include that if you are going to be, you know, teach the teaching the reality of what it was like back then. It is not just the antiwar movement. It is also the, you know, the military point of view, and again you can like it or dislike it. But there is truth to that." 54:31 MP: Of course, that is true. And I am sitting here thinking about how I have focused on one side of the equation or not the other over the last 40 minutes or so. But at Binghamton and that is what we are talking about, principally. 54:49 SM: Right. 54:50 MP: Things on the right side of the aisle simply were not part of the equation. 54:53 SM: I agree. 54:55 MP: And to the extent there was any sense of the right and left, right in those times were fundamentally different from the left, right now. You would think about, remember Joe Pyne, the? 55:13 SM: Yes, his TV show, yes. 55:16 MP: Yeah. I suspect if anybody thought about what was on the right, and it was crazy people like Joe Pyne. And so there, there was not a sense for the most part of articulate, educated, sensible, enlightened notions of the right or people on the right at the time on-on campus. I just do not recall that. 55:42 SM: I remember the Joe Pyne interview with Paul Krassner. [laughs] It was hilarious. Paul was, Paul, you know Paul just passed away recently, and one of the original yippies but and but it was classic to see the two of them together on TV. A real fast response to this, I think we may have already covered it, if you were to describe the students or overall youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe in your own words, the qualities you most admire or dislike. 56:18 MP: Alright, let us start on the negative side. And let us use the term I just used, naive cynicism. To what extent that that was true, or how many young people it covered, I cannot say. But let us use when Rockefeller came to campus. That really did not have anything to do with the war. I think I was a sophomore at the time I had just arrived. And the idea of protesting a governor, Republican though he might be because that is what students should do. Complaining about this or that, that to me was not responsible. It was not mature, you know, jumping ahead. 10 years ago, 11 years ago during the recession, SUNY students, I think throughout the system, not just Binghamton at the time, were protesting that tuition would go up by something like $300 to $400 a semester because of the cutback because the nation was in the worst recession, worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. And I wrote a column up here. I think it ran in the Star Tribune, the Minneapolis paper, about this refusal to acknowledge the importance of personal sacrifice, that the nation was going through this atrocious period. And students were complaining big time, they were whining about having to pay a couple of hundred bucks more of a semester, which I just viewed as unrealistic. I view that as selfish, or viewed it as immature. And I had just seen or a number of years, I guess a number of years earlier a number of years earlier. Remember the movie Radio Days? Yes. Woody Allen's Radio Days, which was set in Rockaway, by the way, and Rockaway Beach about seven miles from where I grew up. And in order for that family to make do they had an aunt living in that small house and they had, may have had a grandparent or two. And that is what people did during the (19)30s, they-they make necessary sacrifices to make it work. And now we are in, the year was we are approaching (20)10. And we were in this terrible situation in this country. And students. We are refusing to pay an extra couple of hundred bucks which is not going to be easy. But a couple of pairs of sneakers would do it frankly. And so that is the connection. When I was talking about Rockefeller a moment ago, a refusal to recognize some reality and the refusal to do what is right. And in some ways, for all the decent things young people did at the time, that is also what I recall. I thought protesting Rockefeller, because he was not building something on campus quickly enough or something along those lines. That simply was not my style. 1:00:31 SM: Well, I remember the papers. And I think he was quoted as saying that he did not know what the why they were protesting because of the fact that he put together the transportation roads, all through the thruway. He was responsible for the Thruway and they were protesting me and I put the Thruway together saying, hey, I know that came up in the conversation. 1:00:53 MP: Yeah, that part I do not remember. What I, tell me if you have ever heard this, that one of the reasons some of the campuses are laid out the way they are. I was told Albany's campus is this, so that it looked good from the air. And so if Rocky was flying over, he could tell somebody that he built that fine looking campus below. I have no idea if that is true. 1:01:17 SM: I do not either. 1:01:19 MP: Makes a good story. 1:01:20 SM: Yeah. That is a just another general question. How important were the student protests in ending the war? And [crosstalk]. And the second part, would you consider this time I think you have already talked about it, you already made a commentary about the nervousness that was going on in our society during the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Would you consider this time the closest we ever got to another civil war after the Civil War? 1:01:49 MP: No, is the short answer on that one, never reached back stage, I am talking more of a social, cultural nervous breakdown, as opposed to a political one where there would be coups and people shooting each other, I never viewed it that way. It is more subtle than that. I am fundamentally a culturalist, so that is what I am referring to, that portion of, of life. 1:02:18 SM: Have you-? 1:02:19 MP: The protests certainly led to, had something to do with the fact of the rest of society getting frustrated. And opposed to the war. I think most grownups viewed things as differently. They were not going to beat up on soldiers. And they did not think this was another sign that the United States being the worst place in the universe but had reached the state, "This is not working. We are killing people we are getting killed with spending an enormous amount of money, and this is not going away." So, I am sure students had a lot to do with precipitating that question. 1:03:02 SM: Have you changed your opinions of the boomers? You are one of them. 1:03:07 MP: The boomers? 1:03:08 SM: I over time, your-your opinions of your generation, say when you were in Harpur at, Harpur and graduate school, and maybe the first 15 years of your career, and compare it to now, have you changed- You know, then we are talking 74 million and I would have to correct that of the 74 million only about 7 percent were ever involved in activism. But that is– 1:03:32 MP: I never romant- I never romanticized, at least I do not think I did, that generation that for no other reason, there are too many people in it [laughs] to find too many distinctive themes. I have problems when people now characterize the Generation X or the millennials or. There is something to be said in each instance, there are some themes, but and now that you think back also about how there were these conservative stirrings during that period that were growing in strength. Here is another aspect of the [inaudible]. And I think a fair amount of religion- my wife is ordained, she is an Episcopal Deacon, we are an interesting family. And I am in church every week, I support my wife. And the dissertation I wrote 39 years ago had a religious theme; much of what I write has cultural themes, social things, religious themes. Thinking back, I have a hard time remembering anybody specifically, who went to church every Sunday. In part because hung out with so many Jews. There was a kosher kitchen, or at least I think that got started, might have gained some strength after I graduated. But I really did not have anything to do be frank about it with observant Jews who ate at the kosher kitchen. Meanwhile, there were 10s of millions of young people and others in the (19)60s into the (19)70s, who were traditionally religiously animated, and religiously animated in new ways. And that sense. At least I never had that sense of that was salient at all. At Harpur, which speaks to the fact, one might argue if one was being a tad harsh, that we were in Ireland. We were not in like the rest of the nation where that was the [inaudible] where religion was concerned, religious observance was concerned. I think about, I think about that a fair amount. And I think about if you want to update matters, and at the risk of my being simply wrong or unfair, bigoted in a fashion, when people talk about spending Sunday mornings reading the New York Times, well, with all due respect to people who read the New York Times, the people I now hang out with mostly go to church on-on Sunday mornings, and historically, lots and lots of American Blacks and lots of Americans have done that and still do that, though the number's decreasing. But that was never the sense in the (19)60s. So you want to view that as an indictment of the time. Sure, I will buy that. 1:06:59 SM: Yeah, I can, I can re-, I went to church every day when I was a little kid, and then through sixth grade, and then all of a sudden went to high school. I did not go to, we did not, something happened in the (19)60s. The (19)50s, everybody was at church or synagogue, it seemed like. 1:07:15 MP: Right-right. 1:07:15 SM: One of the things too, and before we go any further here is the relationship between Harpur College and the City of Binghamton and the Binghamton community. My main reaction particularly around that (19)69 to (19)70 period, when the buses were going back and forth into the city taking students back and so forth or hitchhiking, I did a lot of hitchhiking. There was a dislike-there seemed to be a tremendous dislike of for the, for many of the residents of Binghamton, toward the Harpur students. I can remember Dr. Kadish, my history professor once in a class, just a general comment, he said, he said if you go down if you go into the community, make sure you do not wear your Harpur jacket. 1:08:00 MP: Yeah. 1:08:00 SM: And-and then also, if you remember Mitch, around the (19)69, they were telling girls which, excuse me, telling women and, if you are going to hitchhike, go as a twosome. And so there was a fear that there you know, might get beat up in Binghamton or whatever, because most of Binghamton was pro war, obviously, in the Binghamton community, a lot of their sons and sons are going off to war. And here we had the students protesting on campus against the war. Did you have a sense that you do, were you, outside of writing for the paper, which is important, but did you sense as a student that Binghamton did not like Harpur? That that is the community not the political- 1:08:49 MP: Yeah. No, I would not use dislike as-as the verb though, there were some without question. Distance, I would view it as a matter of distance, we were significantly culturally different in some ways. And first of all, downstate, upstate, Jewish, non-Jewish. And one does not have to use such differences or tensions and hateful terms and they are what they are. One of my favorite examples of this, I was already working for Peter McGraw. Remember Jerry Komisar? 1:09:32 SM: Who? Jerry? 1:09:35 MP: I will spell the name, [inaudible], KOMISAR. He was an economist, a labor economist if you remember, and he was an assistant to the president and he was an assistant to Peter McGraw. He was the academic assistant to him. And Jerry later became the president of the University of Alaska System, but we were sitting with each other in a town gown meeting was one night, someplace on campus. And at the time, as you may recall, locals thought they had a harder time getting their kids into school there than kids from Queens did, when the exact opposite is true. Kids from Susquehanna country needed weaker academic credentials to get into school there. And some guy stands up and he is making the point that, the incorrect point, and referred to a lot of Binghamton Harpur students- and we called them still Harpur at the time- he called them downstate overachievers. And I looked at Jerry and Jerry looked at me and we just began laughing. What a wonderful euphemism for downstate [inaudible]. Downstate overachievers, that was, that was just terrific. 1:11:00 SM: That is exactly what we want in school. [laughs] 1:11:03 MP: My-my, my sense is now from afar, and I have heard it, that ever since Binghamton went division one in athletics, town gown relations are a whole bunch of better because the locals could invest in big time college sports now- reasonably big-time college sports. And that has helped in the fact that it is a major university and not just a small liberal arts college. Yeah, all that all that is true. 1:11:36 SM: I think you already-already know your answer to this, because you have already made a mention of the negativity that some of these students or young people had back in the (19)60s. But there was this feeling. And I remember talking to my friends especially when I was in grad school at Ohio State, would you describe the boomer generation as the most unique generation in our history? And that was the communication when I was in graduate school, in the early (19)70s, that we were different, that we were going to be the change agents for the betterment of a society, this generation saw something wrong and tried to right it. And then that was really the connection to all the movements, whether it be the civil rights, the anti-war, the environmental LGBTA, Chicano, women's, Native American all of them was speaking up, making a difference, and that is what made this generation and his group so different. Your thoughts? 1:12:35 MP: A bit much. [laughter] 1:12:36 SM: Okay. 1:12:40 MP: Yeah, there is that moment of truth in all of that without question. But at the same time, boomers did not have a monopoly on the truth. It did not have a monopoly on responsibility. Of the whatever. What did you say? 73 million? 1:13:02 SM: 74. We are now the second- millennials are larger now. 1:13:06 MP: Yeah. I assure you, they were more people of that generation who were not of the spirit of Harpur students at the time, than were. And yeah so as I said before, I-I resist overgeneralization especially if they get overly romanticized, about any generation. But there are things that certainly happened and that younger folks should be old people were young at the time should be proud of. [crosstalk] I keep on coming back to my goodness, in terms of responsibility, a sense of sacrifice. How in the world could you compare boomers in that sense, to people who lived through a depression and then World War One, World War Two for heaven's sakes, my goodness. 1:14:04 SM: They saved the world. They did save the world. 1:14:09 MP: Without question. 1:14:12 SM: I would like, a couple of the interviews that I did, I would like your thoughts on Todd Gitlin. You may know Todd, was the second founder of SDS, he was after Tom Hayden was the leader. He has gone on to be a big scholar, has written books on the (19)60s and everything and I had a great interview with Todd at-at NYU quite a few years ago, and he said, he does not like this, putting generations into years. Like boomers (19)46 to (19)64, Generation X (19)64 to (19)80 all this kind of stuff. He and secondly, I am at my next point is when I interviewed Richie Havens, who actually performed for the first time on a college campus at Binghamton, and we need to promote this more because Richie told me that during the interview, you I was at that concert and then I asked him, "Do you remember the Bing-?" "That is my first time I went to a college campus!" Well, then we need to let the Binghamton University know this more. But Richie said something very important. He said, I may not be a boomer, but I am one because we are talking about the spirit of the era, forget the years, it is the spirit. And if you look at people born, say between (19)37 and (19)45, who were the leaders of the antiwar movement? Some of the top musicians, they were born in that era, the Rennie Davis' just the yippies. They were, they were, they were all born before (19)46. So, when you go through the interview process on looking at the (19)60s and certainly trying to confine the people that were involved in all these important or maybe not so important activities, you have got to think of what Richie is saying because he says, I am a proud boomer and I was born in (19)41. Sure. It is about spirit. 1:16:07 MP: That is true in terms of the early leadership of the antiwar movement, if we are talking about and let us say, for the sake of argument, (19)65, that would have meant that the oldest boomers were 19. And let us just say a bunch of 19-year olds were not going to start a national movement. Sure, why not. 1:16:35 SM: Do you feel the (19)60s and early (19)70s generation are having problems with healing and I bring this up because Jan, Jan Scruggs wrote the book To Heal a Generation, which is his book when the wall was built in (19)82 in Washington. And it was the first time that veterans felt that they were welcomed home from that war. And he talks about the healing but I have already interviewed Jan too, and Jan says the healing is it was meant for the Vietnam veterans and their families and for the Vietnam veterans themselves, and hopefully this would transfer to into the nation itself. But I asked this question to some of the early interviewees, like Gaylord Nelson. And so everybody's response was kind of different. Healing is trying to get over something, and I do not think we have gotten over this war at all. I- just your thoughts on the healing process? 1:17:34 MP: Well, you framed the question in some respects, in real respects focusing on the military, and how people who served have felt. And as someone who was not in the military, I cannot identify- I would like to- cannot identify real well with that sense of abandonment, let us say, intellectually, I can [inaudible] I suspect I cannot. But my first thought when you started asking the question was that whatever the-the result of Vietnam in terms of divisions in the country's build, let us see if I can express this, have less to do with different sides still fighting over the wisdom or the justice of the war. Rather, it has more to do with a general sense, I come back to the sense of cynicism in this country. And when talking about that, it is impossible for me to separate it from Watergate. So to the extent that there is this ethos has been for decades now, of this respect for politicians, and cynicism about the ability of government to get things right, it has to do with a loss of trust that grew out of both Vietnam, certainly but then Watergate and the combination of the two has been in many ways toxic. And there are straight lines from that to the nastiness of politics now for the last number of decades, the "us" and the "them" and [crosstalk] 1:20:35 SM: Yep-yep. 1:20:35 MP: But I am trying to make the point that I think that this is something different from different sides of the war in the United States still trying to fight it out. No, Vietnam is too far away now for that to be the case. But there has been a spirit of a lack of unity, and trust going back all that time, that is that. I do not know if I am making sense. 1:21:04 SM: Yep, very good observations, certainly. I even wrote a note here we-we as a nation, are still divided here in (20)19. So, it seems like today, it is us against them, it is us against them. It is never-never "We the People," which is what we are supposed to be about. And the-the ability to listen to each other to be not shouted down toward each other. I mean, there was a period even when I was at Ohio State University in grad school, that we were creating dialogue between the races between white people and Black people. And, and then there was, then then then there was a period when there was too much dialogue, and no action was happening. We need results, and-and now I am worried that we are back to an era where the dialogue is gone. And so it is just so many things, what is the lasting legacy of the (19)60s generation and the boomer generation in your view? 1:22:14 MP: Let the pause signify that I am thinking. 1:22:16 SM: Yep, that is okay. 1:22:18 MP: The lasting legacy of the boomer generation. As we have been talking, on the plus side, great advances, when it comes to questions of race, despite what we were just saying a moment ago, what you were saying a moment ago about distance, same thing where women are concerned, same thing where the environment is concerned, though, on each instance and more I can always point out excesses of various movements. And that is one of the jobs of a conservative it seems to me to point out where something is, somebody, some theme is getting carried away. There is a sense of the arrogance, of some thinking about the generation that, we were the greatest generation when in fact, the previous generation if you want to play that game was the greatest generation. 1:23:39 SM: What– 1:23:40 MP: To the extent, well to the sense that I am saying that some things have been overdone, that can leave the interpretation that one wanted to have to go the cliché route again, the (19)50s persists. And that is not what I am saying. So, once you recognize certain great failings of the (19)50s, the (19)50s were not all that bad. [laughs] 1:24:13 SM: I mean, I when I think of the (19)50s, I think I am just a kid you were you were both and you-you and I were a kid, and I kind of go back to those days, there seemed to be a lot of security, had your parents at home, I mean, and everything but then we all know what was happening to African Americans during that time, there was lynchings going on and things were being hid from us. So, it was not good for all Americans, just some Americans. How-? 1:24:39 MP: How about this? It is a-I have always said it is a big country, and you can find anything you want to find. How is that? 1:24:46 SM: Yep, very good. What role has activism played in the lives of boomers as they have aged? In particular, I am referring to that 7 percent that were involved in activism, and conservatives and liberals. Back in that era of the (19)60s and (19)70s, and have they carried, have they passed this on to their kids, who are their children and grandchildren? 1:25:12 MP: It is a brilliant answer, some have some have not. How do you define activists? Are we talking about people on campuses who led the way, who organized events, who ran the mimeograph machines and all, or are we talking about people who just showed up? It is October, let us have a demonstration. It is November, let us have a demonstration. Ooh, now it is the winter, it is too cold for a demonstration. Now it is April, let us have a demonstration. How's that for a cynical view? 1:25:48 SM: Yeah. Well, I yeah, that is a good point, because I am really referring to the doers and the ones that make things happen. So and, you know, and there were few and far between. However, when you look at 74 million and 7 percent it is still a large number. 1:26:03 MP: Well, here is my guess. And it is a guess, I will start with me. I have not been on a picket line since then, I have no interest in being on a picket line. I am not a picketing line kind of guy. But my entire career, virtually my entire career has had to do with the political issues, social issues, advocacy of one kind or another. So to that extent, I remain what I was, though in a different form. And I would imagine that it is true for lots and lots and lots of people, there are not necessarily so many barricades. But they are the ones putting together groups to make this better or that better or getting involved politically. It is not getting a bug, it is when your personality and your character are such that you must be involved with the great issues and the semi great issues of the day, chances are, we will continue one way or another, for a longer period of time. There will be interludes when you are raising families, I suspect, when you do not have enough time. But you get involved in various ways, in issues. And in this country there are many, many ways of getting involved. 1:27:40 SM: The, when I interviewed Bobby Muller, the founder of Vietnam Veterans of America, and he also was a co-winner of the Nobel Peace Prize on the landmine issues. He said when answering a question about the impact of what was the basic characteristics of the boomer generation, he said, the one thing that I can definitively say is true- and you have already brought it up- is there was a lack of trust in that generation. And there were reasons why: Watergate, the Gulf of Tonkin, which was a basically a lie that LBJ, he got us into the Vietnam War, and if you were young enough to remember this, as a sixth grader, which you both you and I were at this time, Eisenhower lying to the nation about the U2 incident. And he lied to the nation. And, and I never thought of that. And then of course, when Jerry Ford pardoned Richard Nixon, everybody was suspicious and did not trust Gerald Ford, in that even though he had not done anything wrong. But this lack of trust is certainly a characteristic that comes through over and over again. And it is not just lack of trust in our political leaders, but lack of trust in leaders of any kind, whether it be a minister, a rabbi, a corporate leader, a university president, anybody in a position of responsibility has seemed to be targets of many of those activists back then. 1:29:09 MP: Yeah, let me, I am sorry go on. 1:29:11 SM: No, go ahead. 1:29:17 MP: For all that I have said about a lack of trust, I personally am in fact the most trusting person I know. I do not attribute lousy motives to people unless I have a reason to do so. At the heart and soul center, the American Experiment is my commitment not to question motives if at all possible. I will question policies, I will question ideas, I will question what people say, but I will not question their basic decency or I will not question their motives. If I think back to Francis Gary Powers I suspect not too many of your- well if you are talking to older, yeah, they may remember Francis Gary Powers. So, if Eisenhower, and I never viewed what Eisenhower did as-as cynical, I viewed it as what presidents do when it comes to spying for [laughter], when it comes to espionage, when it came to the Gulf of Tonkin I assumed that LBJ was playing it straight at the time, it was only later on that I realized probably was not. Al Quie, who was the governor I worked for, whose biography I later wrote, he was in Congress at the time, and he really did not like LBJ. And he became very close to being the only member of the House to vote against it, because he thought Johnson was lying. Simply could not get himself to be the only member of the House to do that. And he, [laughs] I think, still regrets that. With Jerry Ford, I was not cynical about that at all. I argued. I thought that that was in the best interest of the nation, not good to have a former president of the United States in prison. If we are talking about healing, let us get on with it. Are you still there? 1:31:30 SM: Yep. I am here. 1:31:32 MP: I am hearing some-or somebody is trying to call me, but we will forget about that. [crosstalk] So, I-I, I start from a position of trust and I do think it has served me and it has served, centered the American Experiment very well. I am not talking about innocence, I am not talking about naïveté. I am talking about human decency, trusting people to the extent that one can and one can do it, and should do it to a significant degree. 1:32:13 SM: Before we [inaudible], my next question is the question before I want to talk about your organization. In the (19)60s, what and (19)70s, what was the event that you felt had the greatest impact on your life? Something that happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s. 1:32:41 MP: Kent State was one of them. That was the only time really that I thought I was thinking too negatively about my country. For a period I could see that night how mobs came to be and how they could do terribly destructive things. That was the spirit of that evening, and that, I am not just that evening. Sidebar, it may sound trivial in talking about mobs. Do you remember there was a demonstration on the Esplanade about, the decision had come down from high that doors had to be kept six inches open or something and guys could not be entertaining women in their dorm rooms or something along those lines. And there was this demonstration, and some of the speakers were getting really agitated, and the crowd was getting really agitated. I am thinking to myself, this is a mob psychology, has to do with having-having to put a sock on your doorknob or something. That was that was that was the psychology in a lower tense way of the mob. Well, I mentioned what, what got me thinking differently about the war, beyond the fact that the social and political pressures as well as the facts were surrounding me while I was at Binghamton when I arrived at Binghamton in the fall of (19)67 was that Harrison Salisbury speech. I go back to that speech, it was a Binghamton event that had a significant influence, and so let us go with that. 1:34:46 SM: I want to talk about your center. 1:34:48 MP: Okay. 1:34:49 SM: Yeah. When did you first come up with the idea that you wanted to create this, and go through the process of how you created it 10 time- you know, and just into what is the basic principles? What were your goals? So you can share it with the world, because that is what this tape is doing is sharing it with the world. 1:35:16 MP: Always happy to do that. [inaudible]. I am very proud of it. By the time I got to DC, in (19)87, fall of (19)87, to work at the US Department of Education, I had had a background in education, journalism, and government. I had been the director of public information at a ridiculously young age at Binghamton. I served in that capacity either officially or unofficially from (19)72 to (19)74. I got to the University of Minnesota, I was Pete McGraw's speechwriter, I was speechwriting for the President of the big 10 University for three years. I had a doctorate in educational administration, which really was education, administration, and policy with a focus on higher education. I had been a reporter prior to that in Binghamton so I knew something about journalism. I went off to be after the doctorate, a speech writer for a governor, Al Quie, for upwards of two years, later wrote his biography. And after Quie, I served as an editorial writer and as an occasional columnist for significant paper in a significant city in St. Paul, Minnesota. So I had that background. But I had always wanted to do a Washington stint. One of my restorations at the Pioneer Press was that here I had a doctor in education, somebody else was writing about education. Not that I did not have challenging things to write about. I was writing about national politics, and the Middle East. I think I would have Latin America as well and the Soviet Union, not a bad portion of the world to write about. But I always wanted to a Washington stint. And I had that chance in the fall of (19)87. There were other things that [inaudible] in press that were frustrating me and after four years, I realized it was time to move on. And I had a very good friend still have a very good friend and a guy by the name of Chester E. Finn, Jr, known as Checker Finn, FINN, Finn. Who, at the time, I describe accurately as the most important American education analyst and scholar from the right side of the aisle. And he had been at Vanderbilt. he had been at Harvard, he was Pat Moynihan's alter ego in some ways. He, first of all, he had baby-sat some of Moynihan's kids, what was when Moynihan taught at Harvard, Checker was a undergraduate or graduate student there, he worked for Moynihan when he was ambassador to India, and that is where Checker met his wife, Renu, who is Indian. He worked for him in the Nixon White House, I think that was prior or maybe afterwards, and he worked for him when Moynihan was going through his neoconservative period and said other members of Moynihan's staff, by the way at the time were Elliot Perle, who later wound up as Assistant Secretary of Defense under Reagan- not Elliott Perle, Richard Perle. Elliott Abrams and wound up as Assistant Secretary of State, and Checker wound up as an Assistant Secretary of Education during the Reagan administration. 1:39:05 SM: Wow. 1:39:05 MP: Russert was the press secretary it was Les Lenkowsky was also a consultant. It was it was some remarkable staff. Anyway, I met Checker when I was in graduate school. And when I wanted to leave the party and press I gave him a call. And I asked, "Do you have anything?" And he said, "Funny, I do." And Director of Public Information for something, Director of Outreach actually, for the research arm of the US Department of Education at the time, the Office of Educational Research and Improvement. And clandestinely, I went out there and I interviewed and got the job and went out to Washington, putting aside for a moment the extraordinary ambivalence I had about whether or not to take it and my first thought was no. But I went out there. And very quickly I realized that I really did not want to be out there. The bureaucracy was something I really disliked, and the job I had been promised did not turn out that way because typical Washington, someone else already out there working for Bennett, Secretary Bill Bennett. She thought she was the spokesperson for the research arm of the US Department of Education. So, I wound up doing other things, and I just did not enjoy it. So pretty quickly after getting to Washington, perhaps no more than six weeks or so, I started thinking about coming back home and Minnesota was very much home at that point. I had been out here for seven years, I guess. No, let me take that back. No-no, no, my goodness, I had already been on your 13 years. And I had learned something about think tanks, especially when I was at the party on press, when the Heritage Foundation would send me things and on occasion they would visit trying to make a point about something or other, and I found their work to be really quite good. So, they had the reputation at many quarters at that time, as being extreme- they were not. So I did background on those three areas: education, journalism, and government. I said, "Well, I am equipped to start a think tank," and I wanted to start a conservative free market think tank. When I was at the Pioneer Press, I was essentially the only regularly paid conservative opinion writer at either the Pioneer Press or the Star Tribune, the Minneapolis paper- I was the only one. Which says something about the media out here at the time. It is not a bunch of different now. And I knew that a conservative think tank out here would work even though people thought I was crazy. I am saying I want to go back home, start a conservative think tanks and they would say things along the lines, "You want to start a what, where?" They could not imagine a conservative think tank in Minnesota, but no state is the stereotype that it is made out to be, and we are talking about a state that in (19)78, which was nine years prior, had elected all in one line two Republican United States senators and the Republican governor. Al Quie as governor, Dave Durenberger and Rudy Boschwitz as senators, and there were two Senate races that night having to do with Mondale going off to being vice president. And started thinking this through, started talking to people. And I started getting really serious about it. after a couple of months. One of the things I enjoyed about being out in Washington was that I occasionally would have lunch or breakfast with Senator Dave Durenberger in the Senate dining room, that was fun. I enjoyed that. And I had been talking about this idea for a while and he said, "Well you got to stop talking about it, and actually write something" [inaudible] good point. As a writer, I should have known that. So I put together a prospectus, and learned for the first time how expensive printing is, by the way. And from May of (19)88 until we opened 22 months later in March of (19)90, I made 17 trips home, Washington to Minnesota- 1:44:03 SM: Wow. 1:44:04 MP: -to raise money to put together a board of directors and the like, largely on my own dime. Whatever money I had, I spent for the most part and we were finally ready to open up, we had enough money which is not to say very much in March of (19)90 and we opened up great. I had become friends with or acquaintances with people such as Charles Murray, Linda Chavez, Bob Woodson, Checker Finn of course. Larry Mead from NYU, Sally Kilgore, who had done her doctorate under James Coleman and with whom I was working at the US Department of Education [inaudible]. And in one of our meetings back here was our first board meeting, official board meeting. And also, it was still the only board meeting where everybody showed up. And it was on the evening of Reagan's farewell address interestingly, so we took a break from our meeting that evening to watch the address. And one of my colleagues, one of my very close colleagues and one of the founders, and I started working with my close friends in doing this, I certainly was not doing it all by myself, so I was the lead actor. Peter Bell said to me, "You know, we are beginning" and he told the group this, "We are beginning to smell like a house that has been on the market for too long." We may have said this later on, probably said it a bit later on, I may be getting my dates wrong. People knew that we were doing this, getting ready to do this, journalists knew that, then there was some stories. But I just could not raise enough money to actually get it going. I can talk about how we found the money if you would like. And so we decided to do a conference, which wound up in April of (19)90, we were going to do it even if I was not back full time in Minnesota yet. I hired a local event planner, in essence. And I was putting much of this together from Washington. And we decided to have this conference call, and this was my friend Peter Belle's idea. I came up I think, with the exact title, "The New War on Poverty, Advancing Forward this Time," the argument being that we have had this war on poverty in (19)65. Going forward, it did not work real well and there was a sense of the time [inaudible] start trying to do a new one, let us get it right this second time. So, I invited these stars to come out and speak and they all agreed and I said I could not pay ya- I [inaudible] pick up expenses. And they all agreed, and then they all came. I learned later that they may have agreed because they never thought I would be able to pull it off, we would be able to pull it off. But we did. And we opened up great. We had three other people, it was an ideologically and otherwise mixed crowd, mostly ideologically mixed. And Checker Finn did the keynote and Bill Raspberry, the great columnist and friend- 1:47:42 SM: Oh, yeah. 1:47:42 MP: -wrote a column about it. And we were off and, off and running. 1:47:49 SM: What are the what are the basic principles of the organization? 1:47:58 MP: My arguments at the start will have remained my themes, I just been cleaning out some files and moving things around. And I came across columns I wrote for the Pioneer Press back in (19)87. And as the root of my views was that the overwhelming social disaster of our time, was the extraordinary number of kids growing up without their fathers at home. Social, well I, it was family breakdown at the time. The term of [inaudible], family fragmentation, and I had written consistently about that including two books: From Family Collapse to America's Decline in (20)11, and Broken Bonds: What Family Fragmentation Means for America's future in (20)14. And I also talked a lot about them and still do, about how we have to take greater advantage of our religious traditions and institutions to help people in need, and that if we do not do that, it is as if we are trying to do, to make things better with a very muscular arm tied behind our back. And of course, we had to do this in ways that are respectful of the First Amendment, and respectful of I do not use the word diversity, I do not like that, it is a cliché. So I talk about, we have to do that in a way, in ways that are respectful of American variety. And as someone who is Jewish, frankly, I am in some instances in better position to make the argument because people cannot accuse me of being an overly energetic Christian. And I have to be careful using terms like that, I mean them in facetious ways, but sometimes people take it seriously. And is there a wall separating church and state? Of course, I would argue and still do but it is, it was never intended to be as tall and as thick, as it has often been interpreted to be. And what is the main way by my lights to take greater advantage of our religious institutions and traditions? School choice, real life school choice, giving particularly poor parents an opportunity to send their kids to the school of their choice, be it public or private, and private, secular or religious. So those are the [inaudible] of the main themes. Generally, when people think of conservative free market think tanks, they focus more on the economic side of things. And we certainly have done work in that area and more over time. But those were the themes that certainly animated me and animate me still. 1:51:16 SM: Mitch, how many people work at the organization now? 1:51:21 MP: Now, it is a whole lot bigger than what it was, I think there may be something like 14 people on the payroll. 1:51:28 SM: And to do these, do you have lecture circuits to where you have speakers going out to college campuses and things? 1:51:35 MP: No, we do not have that. And you should know my role. I have not been president for going on four years. 1:51:40 SM: Right. 1:51:41 MP: My title is Senior Fellow and Founder, Founder and Senior Fellow. I am part time and have been part time for, this is the first year I have been part time, but I have worked at home for the last going on four years. So, I am out of the loop pretty much. I still write, I have written books during this period. I am going to do another significant project over the next half year or so dealing with personal responsibility and education. Conservatives like talking about personal responsibility, individual responsibility. Well, what does it really mean now in education, if on the one hand I am talking about how family fragmentation is making it hard for lots of kids to do well, and people on the left for the most part of the talking about how racism is supposedly making it impossible for kids, many kids to do well, where does personal responsibility fit in to all of this stuff. I will be conducting a major symposium, written symposium on this over the next half year. 1:53:00 SM: Have you ever thought of coming back to Binghamton and trying to do something? I am just, I am just bringing it up. Because you are, you are distinguished– 1:53:09 MP: I was recently [crosstalk] Someone would have to pay me, someone would have to pay me to be real blunt about it. I am not independently wealthy. If I were to do something, someone would have to underwrite this effort. I have to tell you, when I was out there, it was after Broken Bonds, I guess. Broken Bonds came out in (20)14. And I finagled a speaking engagement in (20)14 or (20)15 talking about the book to some local town gown group that exists, I forget its name. And someone from the Alumni Association that graciously invited me out, was first to go out there. And they put together a schedule for me and I met with some education professors, did not have education professors back when I was there. And I, it was a nostalgic place for me, it is an important, very important place in my life. And the idea of going back and doing something there is really quite appealing. Not necessarily to live, my wife prefers it out here if we are going to move anyplace, it would be someplace like Colorado. But the idea of being involved in some way on a regular basis of Binghamton, yeah that is quite appealing if you can work something out. But financially, I am at a point where I-I would need to be paid, I would need to be paid. 1:54:45 SM: Well, I wish I was back in the university where I work because we, I did five, six or seven conferences at Westchester and I wrote grants and that subject matter you are talking about would make an excellent conference. I am going to, I am we are getting toward the end here, but I want to ask a few more questions– 1:55:02 MP: Sure. 1:55:03 SM: -about your time at Binghamton. Could you just in your own words, what was the relationship between students, faculty and administration during the time you were here? 1:55:13 MP: Good question. Friends, reasonably close friends with-with various faculty and administrators, lots of students, particularly those of us in antiwar activities, though I [inaudible] not only those of us doing that were close to Peter Vukasin, for example, that was the spirit of the place, the Dean of Harpur College. 1:55:49 SM: Right-right. 1:55:52 MP: I might- have you interviewed Camille Paglia yet? 1:55:56 SM: No, I tried a many, many years back. She works at the school [crosstalk] in Philadelphia, the art school. 1:56:05 MP: Right. 1:56:05 SM: And she just did not even respond. But she has, she graduated (19)69 I think, did not she? I think. 1:56:11 MP: Yeah, I think so. I did not know her there. Those of us in my athletic and social science and the other realms were not involved in things in the humanities for the most part. But I remembered when you talk about, relationships with faculty, she was very close to, you mentioned Jerry Komisar before, right? 1:56:34 SM: Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was great professor. 1:56:39 MP: Or was it- he was a historian, was she very close to, who was the poet, who was the poet? 1:56:49 SM: I [crosstalk] know the sociologist was Dr. Price. 1:56:55 MP: No, she was not that [inaudible] she was talking about it. Frankly, I was just reading one of her books again the other day. It will come to me. I will send you an email if I find it. 1:57:07 SM: Yeah, she was she was here in (19)69. Then Bill T. Jones came in here, the great dancer, in (19)71. So and I- 1:57:16 MP: Remember, yeah. 1:57:18 SM:Do you remember Michelle Pecora? 1:57:19 MP: The name, that is all I remember. 1:57:23 SM: Yeah-yeah. Well, she was she [crosstalk] was a dance major, who ended up working at a conservative think tank. 1:57:29 MP: Oh, really? 1:57:30 SM: Yes. 1:57:30 MP: Where? 1:57:31 SM: I think it is the Heritage Foundation. I you know, I tried to look her up. She went to Ohio, she is a year older than me, she went to Ohio State when I was there. I do not ever remember her here. And she was a dance major there. And I remember she was living in Jones tower. And she asked me if I could get graduate students to go to her, you know, dance recital, which I we were in the front row, got a whole mess of them. And she said at that time, she had met someone that she was engaged to be married and all the other stuff, and I lost touch with her totally. Then I looked her up just going into the web. And I believe she ended up getting a CPA or something like that, and then she was also working I think it was either the mer- I think it was the Heritage Foundation. I do not think she is there now. 1:58:17 MP: How do you spell, how do you spell, how do you spell her last name? 1:58:19 SM: PECORA. You know, she was married, so she changed her last name. But it was Michelle Pecora and I all I know is when I looked her up, she was working at the part time, I think at one of the two [crosstalk] is it was either the Heritage or the American Enterprise Institute. It was one of the two, I do not know which one– 1:58:40 MP: Take a look, I will take a look. You remember Percival Borde? He was right after the (19)70's, it was when I was working at (19)72, (19)72, (19)74. He was from the islands, he was a professional dancer. He was a major player. He was on the faculty for a while. But indicative of the time and this is real naïveté, it is not cynical naïveté. I knew Arnie Zane a bit. And I knew I knew of them, frankly and Bill Jones, first Arnie, and I was someplace. Could have been in the theater for heaven's sakes, backstage for whatever reason, and Arnie was sitting on Bill's lap. And in terms of things gay, I knew hardly anything at all. And I was just struck. I do not know exactly what I was thinking. I guess I knew they were gay. But I had never seen a guy sitting on another guy's lap that way. And you talked about fundamental changes- 1:58:43 SM: No. Oh yeah. 1:59:57 MP: -over the decades, that would be it. And then you jump ahead to now. And for decades and decades for the life of the planet for the most part, same sex marriage was not an issue, it was the last [inaudible] to be accepted. 2:00:20 SM: Right. Well, I, Bill T., Bill T. Jones spoke at the Philadelphia library when his book came out and that and I had never met him before. And he signed two of them. My grandniece is really interested in ballet. So, I gave her one of the books, but he gave a great presentation and he is very proud to be a Binghamton alumnus, let me tell you that. 2:00:40 MP: Good. 2:00:40 SM: And I want to just, want to mention, do you remember when Dr. Liebman was fired? 2:00:47 MP: Dr. who? 2:00:48 SM: Liebman. LIE- 2:00:50 MP: No. 2:00:51 SM: He was a sociology professor who spoke down in front of City Hall in an antiwar protest, and he was fired. 2:01:00 MP: The name is vaguely familiar. He was actually fired for that or [crosstalk]? 2:01:05 SM: I think I think he was, he did something because he, when I was here in (19)67, in the fall, he was my sociology professor and then [crosstalk] 2:01:15 MP: Somebody else had to be going on, I assure you. Otherwise the rest of the faculty would have arisen and said you cannot do that. 2:01:25 SM: Yeah. 2:01:25 MP: Academic freedom and all. 2:01:27 SM: Well, something. Yeah, something happened, and he was gone, and one thing, did you go to your graduation in (19)70. 2:01:34 MP: I did not officially graduate in (19)70, remember I found out I was seven credits short. So, I guess I was there and I was the I was, I forget what the term was an usher or something, someone walking down the aisle with a baton. 2:01:48 SM: Yeah, you [crosstalk] remember all the we all we all met, I graduated on that- I had a broken arm. And, like in my picture was in the paper the following day, I told my parents not to bring anything, any cameras to embarrass me. And, and yet, my picture was in the Binghamton Sun the following day, he was getting my degree from Dr. Deering. But do you, that day was historic, because the Grateful Dead had been on campus on May 2nd in performance, and then of course– 2:02:20 MP: Well, I was not in that loop. I simply did not live in that loop. 2:02:24 SM: Right. I guess I am almost done here. I have one that is kind of a convoluted question, but I am going to say finally, how will– 2:02:36 MP: I will give you a convoluted answer. 2:02:38 [laughs] Finally, how important was the era of the (19)60s and early (19)70s in your life, not just because you experienced it and lived it, but because it is shaped who you once were, still are or changed you in ways you never thought possible when you were young? 2:02:58 MP: It was pivotal. For no other reason, then we were talking about when I was in my late teens and early 20s. And I talk about, I probably still, though probably not as much as I used to, I talk about the Harpur/ Binghamton frequently, and part of that has to do, of course, with the fact that I worked there afterwards. I was the director of public information so my job was to think kind thoughts of the place. That was not hard. It is a, it is a good question. I think my wife is in the next room, she may be hearing this so. Exceedingly-exceedingly personal stuff here. Yeah, I started off talking about how I was this swab of this student earlier in high school, junior high school, did not come from an environment that had books in the house. There was, my parents did have a little bookcase. It was in a closet, it did not have many books. I think they used it principally, to hide [inaudible] from me. So, Binghamton was a lot of really, really smart kids, was a different kind of environment. So the high school I went to had some exceptionally smart people. I was not one of them. And when I got to Binghamton, I had worked hard enough that I was closer to being on the cusp of some of the really smart kids, as I said there were a couple of classes where I was the only "A". Richard Dec Legion class, I think and that Hackman class. Yeah, I was living in a dormitory. I was for all three years in the summer between my junior and sophomore years- junior and senior year, I lived in, I call it a semi communal because nobody was sleeping with each other as far as I know. But there were a number of us living in an old farmhouse at the top of the hill in Vestal on Jones road. And my housemates, the friends I had, were, they were, they were cool. They were smart. They were different from the people I would hang out. They were not baseball players. I do not know. Did you know the name, did you know Krista Patton? 2:06:08 SM: Krista Patton, nope. 2:06:11 MP: PATTON. Krista was a great friend. She was one of the people living in the house. Krista died about three years ago now, Alzheimer's, very sad. She was a, she was a class act. She was beautiful, she was exceedingly talented. She spoke beautifully, I do not think she ever stuttered or stammered over a single syllable in her entire life. She-she was indicative of Binghamton in this way. She was all those things. Frankly, more beautiful than 99 percent of the women in this world. But she was counter culture in the sense that when she got out of school, she did not do anything for a while that was close to matching her talent, she had been an English major, was a great English major, and got out of school. And she worked in a bookstore doing nothing terribly interesting. She drove a truck– 2:07:25 SM: My God. 2:07:25 MP: -for a while at delivery truck, I believe. And then after a number of years, we stayed in touch. After a number of years, she decided she wanted to be a physician. But by this stage, she had been out of school for a while. And she was an English major, not a lot of science courses. So, she was told, "Well, you got to go back and take science courses," which he did for the next several years. And aced them all of course, this was at Clark, I believe she was living in Worchester Massachusetts. 2:07:58 SM: Wow. 2:07:59 MP: Got into medical school there. And by that stage I was concerned she would not get in because she was too old. But she got in, graduated, became a fine physician. And, and I in some ways I mentioned this because she followed her own drummer in a classical Binghamton way, if I want to romanticize the place. And after a while she said, "I do not want to be a doctor anymore." She did not like the bureaucracy. So she stopped doing that and became a landscaper. 2:08:35 SM: Oh my God. 2:08:36 MP: And she became sick, and then then she died. And she was involved. She never married but she was involved on and off, mostly on over that entire period from Binghamton on with a guy by the name of Ricky Barton. Ricky is African American, [inaudible]. So that was that was an own, marching to your own drummer kind of thing. 2:08:57 SM: And you know, and marching to your own drummer, you remember the artist Peter Max. Well Peter Max is the really- Yeah. The artist of the (19)60s and (19)70s. 2:09:06 MP: Yeah-yeah, yeah. 2:09:06 SM: And he had so many things which were, go to the beat of your own drummer, or take- 2:09:12 MP: Right. 2:09:12 SM: -or take the road less traveled. It is very obvious, Mitch that some of the relationships and friendships you have developed here at this campus have been have touched you in so many ways and I think of all the things that have, that this interview, which I love hearing about your organization, the changes you have gone through from your early years to today. And but also hearing about the friendships you bring these names up. I do not know them, but it is obvious, you know, as a college student, friendships developed here. And-and we always think of and I always think of I do not ever think of Binghamton University or SUNY Binghamton, I think a Harpur College. And the fact is, I know it was SUNY Binghamton when we were students here. It was Harpur College, Binghamton, SUNY Binghamton. But I am so proud of being a part of Harpur College, the arts and sciences school on this campus. And– 2:10:10 MP: Yeah, I so, go on I am sorry. 2:10:12 SM: Yeah, no, I still identify more as a Harpur Arts and Sciences than I do Binghamton University. [laughs] 2:10:18 MP: Yeah, there has been a large part of me doing that, at least up until about 10 years ago, and I still, I frequently sleep in a Harpur shirt. The reason I focus on Binghamton now, as I do, because I work there, because it is all these years later and when I talk about where I went to school, people not going to out here know about Harpur. They generally do not know about Binghamton, either, but chances are they will know it more readily than Harper, and we just won a Nobel Prize, for example, for a professor at Binghamton not Harpur, you get the idea. 2:10:59 SM: Yep. Yeah, right, well, I always end with by saying, Is there a question that you thought I might ask you that I did not? 2:11:12 MP: As we were talking, I was wondering if you were going to ask about my draft status and whether or not- well, I made it clear I had to serve. But how did I not serve? 2:11:22 SM: Yeah, well, that would be a good question to ask. I know, I was, what did he call it? I cannot remember. I remember I was number 74 on the draft list. 2:11:33 MP: While I was number 31. 2:11:35 SM: Oh my god. 2:11:37 MP: The night someone picked out a ping pong ball, and decided I was number 31, I had had already for about two years, maybe a bad knee, which later were terribly arthritic, and later had replaced and I had both knees replaced and a hip replaced and two spine operations, you get the idea. So a lot of arthritis. So I called the home that night, called collect. And the operator says to my mother who picked up the phone, "Will you accept a call from Mitch?" and she said, "Yeah, we will accept a call from number 31." 2:12:24 SM: [laughs] Oh, God. 2:12:25 MP: I call, I called home to tell him to make another appointment for me with my orthopedist at the time and I look back on this I am not much to say exceedingly proud of all of that. I-I was opposed to going to Vietnam I would like to think for principled reasons, but also be [inaudible] want to go to Vietnam. I was not against military service. I was not against the draft but if I had a chance not to get drafted and not go to Vietnam, I was going to take it. And I became 4F because of my knee wanting the physical on May 26 (19)70 in Syracuse, I look back on that time talking about pivotal moments and pivotal events and things going on. 2:13:20 SM: Were you on that- were you on that bus to Syracuse with Binghamton students? 2:13:24 MP: Yes. You were there? 2:13:25 SM: I was on that, yes, I was on that bus. 2:13:28 MP: [inaudible] 2:13:29 SM: I cannot believe it! 2:13:30 MP: What happened? 2:13:31 SM: I am for- I had asthma. 2:13:34 MP: Well, I developed that later on. I did not have that at the time. 2:13:37 SM: But I was not doing any of that thinking, oh, I am going to go to Canada and all that other stuff I just, I just legitimately had asthma. So and that got me out. But I remember going on the bus and then they asked when we got there, I think they said, "Get in the line if you do not have an excuse and get in the line if you do have an excuse." And there is only a few that [laughs]. There was only a few that got in the line that [laughs] that did not have an excuse. So that– 2:14:04 MP: So, I look back on that time I am not- I will be real blunt- I am not real proud of it. And it is one of the reasons why now, especially since I have made arguments over time as a journalist and think tank about supporting George W. Bush in Iraq, which that might have been a mistake going back down. But I am quite aware of all this I am, so my license plate. We have license plates out here, you pay an extra 30 bucks a year, whatever it is and it has an eagle on it and the extra money goes to military families. So. 2:14:43 SM: That is very good Mitch, I devoted a lot of my life to working with Vietnam vets, Vietnam vets. So, and if you if you look at the people that I have interviewed [inaudible] this, if you look at the people I have interviewed, I have interviewed all the top Vietnam vets basically, except a few of them- McCain, I never got a chance to interview him or John Kerry. But I have gotten to know a lot of them. And I go down to the Vietnam Memorial every Memorial Day and Veterans Day, and I have done so since (19)92. So very important to me to pay respects for those who gave their all and they served. They serve this nation with distinction. I know there is some bad ones, but most of them I think we are good. Mitch, are there any other things you want to say? 2:15:27 MP: A final point, I made it before, but it is worth making it again. Of all the things that the anti-war generation, or make it more clearly the antiwar activist did that I think we should regret is this the way we treated the American soldiers. 2:15:47 SM: I agree. I agree. And it has gotten some– 2:15:51 MP: I would like to think, I would like to think I did not do that. And I really did not– 2:15:55 SM: Well I– 2:15:55 MP: -and there were so many people who did. 2:15:56 SM: Yeah, yeah, in 19- this is a true story, in (19)82 you can see the videos of when the mall opened and how they all came there, the first time that they were actually welcome home really felt. And then you had this period of time after this when some people faked that they were Vietnam veterans. And that is, that is a crime in my opinion. Several books have been written on it. But yeah, I do not, most of the people I know that were antiwar, including some of the major activists they never, it was all about the leaders who sent them to the to the war, not the soldiers themselves. They just wanted to prevent them from getting killed. [inaudible] again, this, this particular interview will be going into the archives, but it will be sent to you first for approval. 2:16:42 MP: Okay. 2:16:43 SM: It has to be some from David Schuster here at the center. 2:16:46 MP: We are talking about just the audio. We are not transcribing this, are we? 2:16:49 SM: No, we are talking the audio. 2:16:51 MP: Okay, yeah. I am sure I will have no problem approving anything and everything. But yeah, I look forward to listening to it. 2:16:58 SM: And also, one other thing, we will need a picture of you that has been approved and okayed. And we need to know the photographer because we have to get credits for them. And I will add one other thing. I have never read any of your books. And quite a few, I have given my whole book collection and except just maybe two or three hundred that I have not given yet. And a lot of them are the people that I interviewed who has signed their books. So, I would love to have your books available here to be near your interview and your picture and biography. 2:17:31 MP: You just sent me an email about what you need and we will work at it. 2:17:33 SM: Great. Mitch, what an honor. And I and I. 2:17:36 MP: My pleasure. 2:17:37 SM: And one other thing I will always remember when I came back from Ohio State University one summer, the summer after I left, I think it was the summer of (19)71. And I walked on the campus. It was a beautiful sunny day and you were sitting in a chair. I do not know if you remember this. You were sitting in a chair outside the of the union in the front facing the administration building. And I said to you, "Mitch, what are you doing here?" [laughs] Because I thought you graduated (19)70 And that is when you told me you were staying around and working with the President that you were working there. You are still doing something. (19)72 to (19)70- son of a gun! Alright, good. Yep. Mitch, you have a great day. Thank you. 2:18:16 MP: I do have one final-final point. I am very, very proud of myself that I have not said one bad thing about Ohio State. 2:18:22 SM: [laughs] That is okay, Mitch. Thank you. 2:18:27 MP: Bye-bye. 2:18:28 SM: Bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Mitch Pearlstein https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e09602564888cb535a1cf72f2e6818e1.jpg 11e30afd5821d4df4fe3e34767957fb8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/98996c55002c71552f2c66be354d826d.mp3 720ae450852f012890775aa9958cbbf9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Morris Dickstein Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Morris Dickstein is a scholar, historian, academic, essayist, book critic, and public intellectual. Dr. Dickstein is a Professor Emeritus of English and Theater at CUNY Graduate Center in New York City and he is the author for several books. He graduated from Columbia with a Bachelor's degree and earned his Ph.D. from Yale University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Morris Dickstein is a scholar, historian, academic, essayist, book critic, and public intellectual. Dr. Dickstein is a Professor Emeritus of English and Theater at CUNY Graduate Center in New York City and he is the author is several books. He graduated from Columbia with a Bachelor's degree and earned his Ph.D. from Yale University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Literary critic; American, Culture; 1960s; Writers, Poets; Politics; Brooklyn College; Beat writers; Counterculture; Dropouts; Columbia; Woodstock; Vietnam; Baby Boomers; Activism; Social protest; the Communist party; Immigrants; Poverty; Black nationalists; Separatist; Freedom Summer; Drugs; Veterans; Black Panther Party; Women's studies; Gay studies; Political correctness; Kent State; Separatism; Hippies; Yippies Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 93:50 Subject LCSH Scholars; Historians; College teachers; Dickstein, Morris--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Morris Dickstein Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dickstein, Morris ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Scholars; Historians; College teachers; Dickstein, Morris--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Morris Dickstein is a scholar, historian, academic, essayist, book critic, and public intellectual. PDr. Dickstein is a Professor Emeritus of English and Theater at CUNY Graduate Center in New York City, and he is the author of several books. He graduated from Columbia with a B.A. and earned his PhD from Yale University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.43 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 93:50 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f1d61fcdf18d23844db8b7742c40309.jpeg f47565f41ecc3ab999a7d4bfdc3020d9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/914d7944c5f3373f0f0dce1d0f2cbb9f.MP3 6a121421de28ede3d56b6443c0f5f98c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 24 June 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Nancy Bristow Biographical Text Dr. Nancy K. Bristow is a Professor of History at the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, Washington. Her research focuses on the area of 20th-century American history, with an emphasis on race and social change. Dr. Bristow is the author of several books including American Pandemic: The Lost Worlds of the 1918 Influenza Epidemic and Making Men Moral: Social Engineering during the Great War. She received her Bachelor's degree from Colorado College, and both her Master's degree and Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:29:57 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Date of Digitization 24 June 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Kent State, Jackson State, Blacks, Campus, Books, Students, History, Young lives, Shootings, Power, Martin Luther King, Mississippi, Boomer generation; 1960s. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Nancy Bristow Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 24 June 2022 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 Nancy Bristow. NB: 00:01 Okay, we are all set. Can you hear me? I can hear you perfectly. SM: 00:07 Okay, great. I always start out with my first question, finding out a little bit about the person I am interviewing. Could you tell me about your background, where you grew up, your early influences, your family, and early interests? NB: 00:21 Sure. SM: 00:21 And high school, college and-and how did you pick history as your career? NB: 00:27 But what, sure. So, I was born in Portland, Oregon in 1958. So, I grew up during the period of the Vietnam War and the civil rights struggles, but was just a child during it. I was not aware that I was interested in history as a young person. In fact, if you told my high school history teacher, I went to Beaverton High School in Portland, Oregon, if you asked him what I became, and then told him it was a history professor, I think it would, would cause of heart failure. He could not have imagined, if I had a course that I hated, it was history. But, that was because I had not gone to college yet. I went to Colorado College, which is a small liberal arts college in Colorado Springs, at a remarkable undergraduate education. And I had planned to major in German, but turned out not really to have the capacity for that. And so by chance, I took a history course because I thought it had a really neat name, it was England Age of Kings. And I thought, well, that sounds cool. And it changed my life, the Professor George Drake, who went on actually to be the president of Grinnell College, was my professor for that class, that I discovered that history was about people, and about what happens to us, and helps us understand who we are now. And that course, it literally within a couple of days, my life path was set I suppose, but I did not know it then. But I just, absolutely loved the class, had a kind of intellectual excitement that I had not really felt with any of the other classes, I had taken though I was a successful student all the way along, I thought I would major after I gave up on German, I thought I would do English, but always felt sort of ungrounded in that field. And history gave me that sort of grounding in the lives of actual people, people that had really lived the lives that, that you know, I was reading about, and ultimately would write about. In terms of early influences, my family has been tremendously important to who I became, I think, reaching all the way back to, to great grandparents that I knew who were working class people from Pittsburgh. And they raised up my father who was fortunate enough to get to go to college, as did my mother, they were both first generation to college students, that we did not have the language for that at the time. But both came from working class families, my mom's mother came from Ireland, was an immigrant. And both of them I think, were really serious about education. So for instance, when I went off to college, my parents gave me a credit card, which I could use for any kind of emergency, or to buy books, could just use it, for emergencies- SM: 03:01 [chuckles] Yes. NB: 03:01 -the kind of empathy that is necessary to be successful in the craft. And I think it can be learned, I was lucky that I think I learned that as a, a pretty young person. My grandma was a church going woman and who really, lived the Christian ethos, I think, in a way that that so many, perhaps do not, she really did embody that. I lived it seriously. I was not thinking of it through a Christian lens, but she very much was kind of, you know, just always cared about other people and really looked after other people. And I think my parents instilled in us the sense that, that was an important part of being a human being and second, that you are not anybody better than anybody else. And do not go fooling yourself because of what you do for a living, or where you live, or what language you speak does not make you better than someone else. And I think that was also really formative for me. -and books, and they just really have this deep investment in the value of education. And they paid for college for myself and both of my siblings, which is an extraordinary gift, not as expensive a gift as it would be in 2022. But nevertheless, a real contribution to the lives of their children, again I think it speaks to the value that they both placed on education, and the things that it would make possible for you. It had been a really meaningful experience for both of them, and I wanted us to have that same experience. But the other thing I think they gave me was a real sense of, and this goes to my grandparents as well, a sense of the importance of every, every human being. And again, I did not have language for it growing up. But, a real profound concern for injustice, and a preoccupation with-with the wellbeing of other people was really instilled in me through my grandparents and my parents. And I think it makes you a better historian because it helps you begin to have- SM: 04:03 I can see that as a scholar that what you have done in this book, your, you care about everybody. I, you know, it is just a tremendous book, you went to Berkeley too, correct? NB: 05:00 I did. I got my PhD at Berkeley, my masters and my PhD. I had not known what I would do when I finished college. And it was really a singular lack of imagination that took me to graduate school. I thought, well, I will just keep studying since I like doing this. And, then I was very lucky. Berkeley was good for me. I had some very, very valuable educational experiences there, obviously with people like Lawrence Levine and Paula Fast were my primary advisors. [crosstalk] But it was more important almost just to be in the Berkeley context, which was a place with a lot of activism- SM: 05:38 Yes. NB: 05:38 -and a community that was very, very diverse. And that was really good for me because I had grown up in Portland, Oregon, which is a, you know, relatively small town back in the day and still quite residentially segregated, as I was growing up. SM: 05:50 Did you take any courses from Harry Edwards or Todd Gatlin? NB: 05:54 No, I did not, I did not. They were not in my, then this is one of the things I regret about my education, is it was not as interdisciplinary as it would be if I did it again. So they were over in, you know, psychology or excuse me, sociology, so it was not even occurring to me to go over and take courses from them. And I was not studying the (19)60s yet. It is the other thing. SM: 06:14 Right. NB: 06:15 I think was intimidated by the subject matter, because I had lived it and it was still pretty fresh in my mind, not in a, in an adult kind of way. But I knew that it mattered a lot to me, and I was not ready to take that on. Like, I do not think I understood that at the time. But it is clear to me now because I love teaching the (19)60s. But I did not write about the (19)60s Initially, I wrote about the First World War era, because I think it had some of the same kinds of issues. SM: 06:40 Now you are also, in terms of, you are the chair of the African American History Department? NB: 06:46 No-no-no-no-no-no, I am, was the chair of the History Department. My term ends on like, next week, Thursday, for which I am very grateful. So I am just a professor of history. There is an African American studies program that I teach in, but I am not the chair of it. SM: 07:03 Okay, very good. Could you give a brief description of your books, the other books that you have written before this current one, just your scholarship up to this point? NB: 07:15 Sure. My first book was called "Making Men Moral: Social Engineering during the Great War," and my purpose in that book was really to explore how the military conceptualized the relationship between its fighting forces and the civilian population. And to get at that I studied, one particular agency that had its purpose, the creation of moral crusaders would be the kind of language I might use. That, they were thinking about the soldiers through a very particular lens, and what that crusader would look like had very particular sort of social and moral positioning. And so, the agency I studied, how does its job creating these soldiers who would be as pure in body and mind as you were in spirit, I mean, just this, really wanting to create an ideal kind of American so it was sort of an Americanizing program for all the American troops through recreation, social hygiene, education, and ultimately law enforcement, as needed. So, it was a really interesting study about the power of the state, and what it looks like when the state has the power to implement its moral vision. And, really a piece of sort of my interest in the progressive era. And then my second book, looked at the influenza pandemic of 1918. So, staying in the same time period, interested still in the role of the state in the lives of individuals, but looking at it in a particular, sort of social catastrophic moment. Turns out, I am really interested in the idea of, sort of culture and catastrophe, and how we as a people, as a community, as a nation engage with, and work our way through, and ultimately remember or forget these major moments in our history. So that one, I was really interested in the social experience of American people during this pandemic, and the ways in which social identity really differentiated the experiences. So, it mattered whether you were male or female, it also mattered profoundly as it did in our current pandemic, what your racial and class situation was. SM: 09:19 Yes. NB: 09:19 It also mattered whether you were a healthcare professional, if you were a doctor or a nurse, because those were such gendered positions at the time. And then also really interested in how public health navigated both popular interest in being saved and then ultimately, popular frustration with the ongoing difficulties of the pandemic. So both an interest in the social experience, and the sort of, role of social identity, but also interested in the sort of, state civilian relationships as well. So, those two are connected because of the time period because of my interest in, in issues around social reform, issues around the state, and the individual. And also really interested, increasingly across time in the meaning of race, and the meaning of class in people's lives. And the reality that even in these moments when we talk about being a singular nation, right, we are unified by the world, we are unified by the pandemic, the ways in which that is simply not true. SM: 10:22 This leads into the new book, which is, "Steeped in the Blood of Racism." What drew you to the Jackson State story? And I love your title too, because the subtitle "Black Power, Law and Order and the 1970s Shootings at Jackson State College." I just did an interview yesterday with Mr. Ruffner who took pictures at Kent State. NB: 10:47 Right. Right. SM: 10:47 And the fourth and he talked about, we talked about the whole concept of law and order that was happening at Kent State with Governor Rhodes and- NB: 10:55 Oh, that is right. SM: 10:56 -and all those people there they were, you know, some of the students were so called criminals and all this other stuff. NB: 11:02 Right. So, criminalizing of the young people is one of the things that the two stories have in common. SM: 11:07 Right. NB: 11:08 So I, I came to the Jackson State story, actually, by way of interest in, I was really interested in state's repression in the Black Power era. And my original plan was to write a book that looked at a series of events in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s: the murder of Black Panthers, the, assault on civilians during civil disorders, the treatment of Black college students. So, looking at different contexts within which the state is enacting violence against Black people, and using new language, the language as you suggested of law and order to justify it. For the wake of the civil rights legislation of the mid (19)60s, the sort of straight out you can just murder Black people does not work any longer. It does not mean that the murders will not continue to happen, but that the state will need new justifications for that kind of behavior. And Jackson State, it was a really classic case of it. I had planned to write this larger book and then an editor at-at Oxford asked if I wanted to, write on a single one, and create a volume that was more focused. And I was like, "Well, yeah," and I have started with Jackson State, so let us go with that one. I got onto Jackson State, though, to do justice to him, a student of mine and one of my courses, a young man named John Moore, wrote a paper on the shootings at Jackson State and it really intrigued me, because they had not known much about the shootings prior to his paper. And it really inspired me to want to know a lot more about what took place there. And the discovery that this was really racial violence, this was, you know, the state perpetuating violence against Black bodies, which it had done, you know, with a history reaching all the way back to slavery. And so, I was really interested in exploring how the shootings were justified because, of course, no one ever did, no one was ever prosecuted for the crimes. No one, ever you know, they, it-it is just a horrific injustice that went, you know, completely, a pursuit of justice was-was unsatisfied, I will-will say that, so interested both in how that could be possible, when this was clearly murder. And then secondly, really interested in why so few people my age, remember what happened to Jackson State, and everybody knows Kent State. And so, that really telling this as a story of racial violence and the ways in which white Americans do not remember racial violence so, that each police shooting can be treated in a sense as a one off, right. Trayvon Martin should not have had a hoodie on or he would have been fine. SM: 13:43 Right. NB: 13:43 Eric Garner should not have been selling illegal, so you know, go down the list of things. Tamir Rice should not have been playing with a plastic gun. Right? No, the fact is that each of these people were part of a long arc of history in which we talk about needing to pursue law and order, and we do it as a justification for, the control of, of Black citizens. SM: 14:04 In the state- NB: 14:05 I was really interested in that. SM: 14:06 -the state of Mississippi and that whole period, I just did not read off of another person, on the Freedom Summer, and what was happening in Mississippi at that particular time, and in (19)64. But, this whole business of Jackson, understanding the history of Jackson in conjunction with this school that had many different names over the years since its founding. NB: 14:17 Yeah. Yep. SM: 14:28 And I, just imagine what African American students were going through, through that whole period- NB: 14:35 Right. SM: 14:36 -living in that community. NB: 14:37 Right. And that is the thing that I think is really interesting about Jackson State, which is, right, it is a historically Black university at that time, a college within a state system run by a higher education board that is all white. SM: 14:51 Yes. NB: 14:52 And, that wants nothing more than continue to control these Black students. They have to have a good Black school. So, they put limited resources into this institution, it is always under resourced, even today I suspect it is still deeply under resourced. But so, they have this institution, but they are going to control these young people to the best of their ability. So, they have president after president who really keeps a lid on any kind of activism and even up into the 1960s. You know, students who do protest in the early 1960s who were Jackson State students are expelled, if they are caught, for instance as, as supporting the Tougaloo nine in the early 1960s, at a sit-in locally, those kids are thrown out of school, the Ladner sisters, for instance. And so, you have a campus that is sitting right on the edge of Lynch Street. And again, that is a name that may sound, may resonate differently to our ears, but it is actually named for senator John Lynch, who was a Black, a Black representative in the U.S. Congress that was a Black man out of Mississippi during Reconstruction. So, John R. Lynch Street is actually a name with some pride behind it. But right on Lynch Street, literally a block off campus, is the place where the major NAACP rallies are taking place when Jackson is up in arms, when African Americans are really protesting in Jackson, and, you know, the city is, is, you know, in the midst of a, of a, of a revolt by the Black community, its headquarters are, you know, a block off campus. SM: 16:28 Wow. NB: 16:29 So, you have kids who are trying to navigate that. So, the institution is seen as, sort of very repressive, and ultimately regressive, that Tougaloo gets all the praise for having been activists. But in fact, there were always students at Jackson State who were pushing the edges of, of the envelope, so to speak, some of them being expelled as a result. And starting in 1967, the school gets a new president, who really does begin to give students more voice. He reestablishes the student government, the student newspaper begins to have an actual voice to talk about, you know, issues that are social political issues. So, it is really an institution and a transition time in 1970, it is still primarily kids coming first generation to college, many of them coming off of farms, you know, the children of sharecroppers, so kids who cannot afford to get in trouble, kids whose whole families are counting on them, to get an education, and to help the family. So, it is a very, as you say, unimaginable the kind of tensions that these young people were living in the midst of, even as what they were trying to do is get an education. SM: 17:36 You did a great job on explaining all of this. And if, if, if a young African American student got involved in an activist activity there that he could be kicked out of school, or it could affect his remaining at the school because he wants to graduate, get a job, and for a long period of time the school is involved in preparing young people to be, I think teachers in Black schools. NB: 18:01 Yep, absolutely. SM: 18:02 And, and they, this was a job opportunity. And, so there was that. And also, it is interesting with, some of the people I have interviewed about Kent State, is, you know, Kent State was not known as an activist school for a long time. It was more of a conservative school. And I know they had a real big and strong SDS chapter there. And, they played a major role. But still, when- NB: 18:29 When, they had had, there were a lot of children of, of Labor Union activists. SM: 18:30 Yes. NB: 18:31 In fact, there is the wonderful book, I do not know if you have had a chance to interview Thomas Grace. But- SM: 18:39 Yeah, I did. NB: 18:40 -yeah, his book is just terrific on establishing that there was a history of activism at that school. It just was not well known that you would this- -these assumptions that were made. And I think there is some of the same story at Jackson State that, Robbie Luckett-Robert Luckett, who runs the Margaret Walker Center at Jackson State has done a really good job, I think, recapturing that history in the current exhibit that they have on campus right now, about the Lynch Street corridor and the ways in which Jackson State was very much always a part of what was going on, even if it was a great risk to those students who participated. SM: 18:48 Yes. Yeah. One of the most important things that was happening in America and certainly in the south, and all over America was in 1966. Could you describe the meaning of "Black power"? And when these two words became the slogan for African American students in the (19)60s. We all know the Stokely who had been a member of Snick for many, many years. He was there in Freedom Summer doing all his thing, but he had different views than some of the others in Snick. He and H. Rap Brown and others became more radicalized. Could you explain when this kind of happened and the effect that it had on college campuses? NB: 19:55 Sure. And it is hard to track. I would say that though the terminology comes popularized at that point in 1966. The ideology, A, had not had long been there. Many people think of, say, the Black Panther Party as being the heirs of Malcolm X. So, we have other voices- SM: 20:12 Right. NB: 20:12 -throughout the civil rights era that are calling for a different kind of, of approach to making social change. Civil rights activism based in nonviolent direct action really is an appeal to the conscience of those who have power. Right. It is asking white people to see that they are wrong, that it is immoral to do things like segregate and appealing on them, to change their minds and to become as, in a sense, better neighbors, better citizens. By the summer of 1964, when you have civil rights, you have the murder of civil rights activists during Freedom Summer, you have, you know, an extraordinary number of acts of violence against civil rights activists, generally speaking, and then in 1964, at the Democratic National Convention, you see mainstream, liberal Democrats really turn their back on the activists from Mississippi who come to the convention- SM: 21:03 It is amazing cause- NB: 21:03 -with the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party asking that the Democratic Party itself unseat the white Mississippians and see other delegates to the convention who have created a Democratic Party that includes Black people as well as white people. And when the white liberals do that, for some who had gone along with nonviolent direct action, it is kind of the final straw. The idea is you even the people who purported to be our friends, cannot be counted on when push comes to shove, when their political well-being is threatened in any kind of way. So, I think for a lot of young people who had thought of nonviolent direct action, not so much as a way of life, but as a tactic, that shift was underway by 1964, even though we do not talk the language of "Black power," really, until 1966. I think the other thing that is really essential here is that by 1966, you could see that even with the passage of civil rights legislation, a lot was not changing. If you live in Oakland, the passage of the Civil Rights Act of (19)64, does not do anything for you, neither does the Voting Rights Act. So even as we see political empowerment taking place in the south, by the late 1960s, for a lot of African Americans, the civil rights legislation did not actually have much meaning. So, there was a kind of raised and disappointed expectations that encourage people to think about the need for a different strategy to make change, that what is really essential in the United States is power. And so you have got to get some and the way you get that as you start to think about Black nationalism, you think about economic determinism, which is or excuse me, economic Black nationalism, which is to say, spend your dollars in stores owned by Black people, spend your dollars where it will come back in tax revenue to your own community. And political Black nationalism; do not vote for anybody who does not have your back, they may not be Black, but they have got to have your back, spend your vote wisely. And then sort of social or cultural, Black nationalism, that just speaks to the need to look to your own community for wellbeing and to think about creating change from within rather than looking to the white community for change from without- SM: 21:03 Yes. NB: 21:45 -and so by 1966, I think it is a combination of frustration. And the reality that things are not changing, and experiences with the white community that suggests the sort of limits of what is possible through nonviolent direct action in a country that is so steeped, so deeply immersed in, in a white supremacist history and system. SM: 23:21 It is, it is, it is something here also, it is kind of a deja vu story in America. After the Civil War and Reconstruction, you know, people were supposed to have the right to, you know, for a lot of freedoms, probably up to about 1877. NB: 23:47 Yep. SM: 23:47 And after that, then all these, did the extreme opposite. And, you know, everything that we knew about Mississippi in 1964 was, was it all had dots going back to that 1877 rights, right up to the Ku Klux Klan, and the- NB: 24:09 Yep. SM: 24:09 -citizen councils, and all these things, preventing African Americans from just about everything. They were never treated equal. The one thing that shocks me the most over and over again, it is in your book and in other books, is how they talk to people of color by using the N word. It just- NB: 24:26 Right. SM: 24:26 -it just upsets me terribly. NB: 24:28 Right. Well, I think it was not only that, but even the kinds of, sort of basic slights all the time, so, not calling you by your last name, not using Mr. And Mrs., forcing you to get off the sidewalk, or out of the way for a white person was very intentional. It was intended to degrade, right. And I think that is why the N word is so powerful is that, it was a representation of a whole system of slight and of degradation that was intended to send a message that you are less than I am. And-and, you know, just the ways that, that would then, create ways of living in the world for white, think about white young people growing up in that world, of course, they assume that they are better. And for young Black people how hard it is then to assert yourself and to understand your own capacities, right. There is ways in which, you know, it just was so cruel. It just it, yeah, I agree with you. It is just, it is unbelievable. It is, it is easy to be upset by things like lynching, of course we should be. But that is only one piece of this whole system that was designed to degrade people's lives. SM: 25:41 And, and what is happening today in America, I worry, again, is this, the third chapter of- NB: 25:46 It sure feels like it. SM: 25:48 -like two steps forward and three steps backward, two steps forward, three steps backward, especially in the area of voting. I mean, even John Kennedy, when he was president, you know, he wanted to get a bill passed. But one thing he did not include in that bill was voting. NB: 26:05 Right. SM: 26:05 And- NB: 26:06 No, that is right. SM: 26:07 -so when you look at the killings at Jackson State, and I am so glad you wrote this book, because, you know, Kent, I have been to 14 remembrance events at Kent State and they have done a fantastic job- NB: 26:19 Yeah. SM: 26:19 -in making sure that what happened at Jackson State is part of the Kent State story as well. NB: 26:24 They sure have, they sure have. SM: 26:26 And could you, describe the history of the school? You have done it a little bit already, about the, it, what, it is your, it is your material that you built up proving that what happened on the 18th of May was racist. Yeah, 14th, 14th of May. Oh the, yeah 14th, excuse me, yes 14th. NB: 26:46 No, I think it is really important because it is very, I mean, I think it is important to note that the young people who suffered at Kent State and at Jackson State feel a real sense of community with one another. And it is something, I think there is great gratitude, both directions for that. Kent State itself has done a great job, retaining the story of Jackson State alongside their own, and I applaud them for that. But one thing that has happened is, Kent State become the kind of iconic story for the period, which made it really easy for Jackson State to kind of just slip off the page, so to speak, that itself, I think is-is a result of white supremacy and our failure to recognize that this was a racially based murder. And, you can see that so clearly. So, Jackson State was a historically Black institution. By 1970, I think there is three or four white kids going to school there. There is the children of professors, I think. But, there is really just a couple of kids there. It is, it is really silly, historically Black and predominantly, or actually exclusively Black school at that point. And it has a history of over the course of the 1960s, having engagements with the police that end in, in police violence. They are always overreacting to the slightest, any kind of unrest on the campus will bring in Thompson's tank, which was an armored tank, purchased for Freedom Summer, will bring in, you know, large numbers of heavily armed police in a way that just was not happening nationwide, right. This is a period of great activism on college campuses. And in general, you do not see the immediate response being sent in, in, you know, a large armed force. At Jackson State that is the routine response to any kind of unrest. And there is unrest every summer, starting in 1964, of some sort. The other way you could really see this, that this is a result of racism, that this is white supremacy being enacted, is you could look at a number of things first, when they hear that there is a dump truck on fire on the campus, instead of saying okay, so what should we do? They instead, quickly hand out a bunch of riot gear, and shotguns, and run out to Jackson State. There is no talk about what the mission for the night is, they do not brief the troops. So, everybody goes in without a clear sense of what their job is when they get there, right. That is, so they are in complete panic mode. Because, why? Because these are young Black people. So they assume, as one guy says, "Well, once they started burning the, you know, burned that, we figured they burned down the town." So, they have already conceptualized these kids as criminals. Now, why is that racially infused, because in Mississippi, that is something that had long been done, A, but also as you start to look at some of the things they do: A, all the way through, they refer to the young people using the N word, they come in with armory, with armaments that are better suited for, for warfare than they are for crowd control. If you had any regard for these young people's lives, they would not have been armed in the way that they were. And then finally, that they opened fire on them. They open fire and shoot for 28 seconds because a bottle broke on the pavement. You do not, it is completely against protocol to do so. They would not have opened fire on a group of young white people. But, because there is no regard for these young Black people's lives, they open fire and continue to fire for 28 seconds. They shoot over 400 shells. I mean it is, it is shocking. And they are shooting from almost point-blank range. SM: 27:16 Owie. NB: 27:21 I mean and to look at, and to hear these young people talk about what happened. It is so clear. And then in the aftermath, they literally do not assist the wounded, or the dead. They yell at the young people using the N word, and tell them to go check on these kids, two of whom die. Several others of whom are injured, they do not assist the kids. They pick up their own shells instead. It is, it is not until the National Guard arrives- SM: 30:59 Yes. NB: 30:59 that the students are assisted in helping those who are injured, or, and tending to the two who had died, Phillip Lafayette Gibbs and James Earl Green. So, it is so infused with racism. And yet it is, it is undeniable when you look at the evidence up close. SM: 31:14 After it happened in your book, several people said the National Guard was supposed to take over for them, they were supposed to leave. Then, that probably would not have happened if the National Guard were there. But, it is the fact that the Jackson Police and the state troopers were there. NB: 31:30 That is right. And they are called in because a dump truck is lit on fire in the middle of the street. And the night before, there had been some unrest but, the police never enter the campus. So even though there was unrest on campus, nobody was injured. Nobody was hurt, clear lesson there. The next night when this dump truck is lit on fire, the police and the highway patrol rushed to campus, all in a fluster. And when the, they are rushed to campus to, to, quote, "Protect the fire department." Well, the fire department leaves once the dump truck fire is out. And what do the police and highway patrol marched into the middle of campus, there is no reason for them to enter the campus, no reason for them to march toward the middle of it. The mayor says, the National Guard chair says, number of people who were on site say there was nothing going on in the middle of campus. I did not know why they were marching there, and it was against their orders. They marched in the middle of campus. They turn their weapons on a group of young people in front of a women's dormitory. Kids who until they arrived had been hanging out. SM: 32:31 Right. NB: 32:32 As one guy said to me, "Yeah, we were all just hanging out. It was a nice Mississippi evening, to where all the lovers world, were, it was a women's dormitory." Women had an earlier curfew, it turns out. So, the men were all hanging out in the sort of, sway in front of the dormitory. When these you know, this heavily armed crew marches on them, and turns their weapons on them. So, of course they yell at them. But, when they are asked to clear the street and to move away, the students do, there is no question about it. The students are behind a chain linked fence when the police opened fire, and the police had no reason to be there. SM: 33:07 Where was the- NB: 33:08 In fact, you know, the National Guard is, is completely upset the commander that they have done this, he says literally, "They have done it all wrong." SM: 33:18 I-I know that the college president was around, he was keeping track of this. A plus over from Jackson State over Kent State, is the administration at Kent State was nowhere to be found. NB: 33:30 Right. SM: 33:31 And, talk about an inept administration, faculty members were kind of- NB: 33:37 Right. SM: 33:37 -doing their thing. But at least at Jackson State, the President was around, and was concerned, and but he was not at that scene. NB: 33:45 No, that is right. He was actually at his home at the time, because, because he knew that there was some unrest. And as soon as the shootings happened, a number of young Black men primarily approached his home, which is right near campus, and said, "You know, you have got to, you have got to come out here you have to see what they have done to us," and he immediately did. And he helped probably, to prevent a much larger loss of life because some students were wanting to march on downtown, and that would have been catastrophic. And, he helped the students. He did not, I will not say calm them, what he did is he asked another student who was there who was well known among the students, highly regarded, and was known to be able to recite Martin Luther King speeches by heart. And he asked him to recite, and that young man did, and it slowed things down enough for students to then talk about what they ought to do, and they realized what they should do was to stay on campus, but they refused to, to go back into the dorms. The president said, "Go back inside," and they said, "Why? Well, we were not, we were not safe in there. We are staying out here tonight." And so, they spent the night in front of the dorm. It was shaped like an H, and so they were in the sort of lower part inside the two legs of the H. The west wing on the left is where the shooting took place. And they spent the night there, but President John Peeples absolutely was, was crucial and remains really close with many of the students from that era. They all speak so glowingly- SM: 35:14 Right. NB: 35:14 -of him. When they finally had their graduation, where they got to walk across the stage last summer. He was absolutely in. He was there and was the commencement speaker for them. So, he is well known to have been very, very important. And then that young man, Eugene Young, they nicknamed him, his nickname was Jughead, he, too, was really crucial in helping the students sort of slow down enough to realize that it would be, suicidal to leave the campus grounds. SM: 35:45 You know, I knew Jean. He came here- NB: 35:48 Did you? You are so lucky. SM: 35:49 -I met, he came to Kent State several years to speak at some of the programs on the- 30th, the 1st or 2nd of May in some of the buildings there. And, I was sad when I heard he passed away. I know he had been on the previous year, he had been on Democracy Now, talking about it as he paid tribute to those who had died. But, he, he was so good as a speaker. NB: 35:54 That is right. And that is what everyone says. SM: 36:14 Yeah and, and he and, I remember he was staying at a hotel, and I was staying another hotel, and he did not have a ride. So, [chuckles] I took him back to his hotel. But, we were in another theater downtown because they were doing some programs in the, in the theater. And he was just, I mean, he was, it was like you go to grad school, and you meet your new grad students in your residence hall. You talked to him once and you were friends. NB: 36:42 Yeah. SM: 36:42 He was, he was that good, and that friendly. I remember when I came back to Kent State, I had heard that he passed and it touched the people at Kent State, so. NB: 36:52 No, everybody, everyone has spoken so highly of him. It is one of my, I will not say regrets. But I just, I wish I had started my project a few years earlier. So, I might have had the chance to meet him. And honestly, not only for the story that I know, he would tell, and I would love to have had the chance to learn from, but also just, he just sounds like an extraordinary human being. SM: 37:14 Oh, yeah. He is, he reminds me of a professor. I mean, he was,- NB: 37:18 Yeah, that is right. SM: 37:19 He was just, he was intellect, he is an intellectual. He is very calm, though. He is a gifted- NB: 37:25 Yep. SM: 37:25 -gifted speaker but calm. NB: 37:27 And you know, he was a part of the civil rights activism in Jackson as a young child. SM: 37:31 I did not know that. NB: 37:32 Yeah, so in the early (19)60s, he is a part of the of the activism in Jackson. And in fact, he comes up if you read Dan Moody's book "Becoming of Age in Mississippi," which is an account- SM: 37:41 Oh yeah. NB: 37:42 -of, sort of, grassroots activism, she talks about little Jean Young. SM: 37:46 Oh, I will check that out. NB: 37:47 Yeah. So he came by his activism early, and was really a part of, of those, you know, the student efforts of the early 1960s in Jackson. SM: 37:56 Now the Black power, I want to get back to the Black power situation again, around (19)66. That was coming to Jackson State as well. Some of the things that the students were demanding. And this is important to know, because I think it is in your book and another book I read. When people say how did these changes happen? It was because of the African American students. NB: 38:19 That is right. SM: 38:19 That made it happen. Not some, not Stokely Carmichael. Not- NB: 38:24 That is right. SM: 38:24 -it was them. And, and I saw this at Ohio State because that is where I went. I went to grad school at Ohio State. NB: 38:30 Right. SM: 38:30 And the Black studies, the arrival of Black studies- NB: 38:34 Yeah. SM: 38:35 -on campus and the legitimacy that it is an academic program was a big challenge- NB: 38:39 Yes. SM: 38:39 around there. And of course, the Black student unions were getting big, bigger, and the Black student papers, and student programs at Ohio State. This is the same time period; Ohio State had a lunchtime program from 12 to 1 in the Ohio Union. And it was for African American students, and on African American issues. I went every single one. And they only had 25 or 30 people, I was there as one of the few white people that was in there [chuckles]. But I will never forget when Jesse Jackson came, oh my god! NB: 39:09 Yes, there you go right! And, I have heard him speak once when I was in, 1978. Yeah, at his church, quite a. SM: 39:18 Yeah, well, yeah. Well, Jesse was there and of course, he had his afro and he was, you know, dressed like, he was young. [crosstalk] He was a young guy. And then I also remember Kathleen Cleaver coming to Ohio State, she spoke in Mercian auditorium, one Friday night, and I remember it was, and the place was packed and she had her own guard, you know, the Black Panthers guarded her. And, we were waiting and she finally came in. And, she spoke for a while and she said, "Well, I was met at the airport by the police," [laughs] of course, and they escorted her to get to Ohio State. And so, she started to speak and they had two guards up on the stage and they were just standing there, not moving, one fainted. NB: 40:06 Oh wow. SM: 40:07 And she is only into her speech for a couple minutes, and this, one guy faints and falls down, then somebody thought he had been shot. So- NB: 40:15 Oh yeah. SM: 40:16 I will never forget that. And, they ran up there to protect her and everything, but it was- NB: 40:21 Oh yeah. SM: 40:22 -but it was during this Black power and, and Black pride, and the afro hair dos, and everything. NB: 40:29 Black is beautiful was a really important concept, right? SM: 40:32 Yes. NB: 40:33 Even today, I know that my own Black students still suffer from not only colorism within the Black community, but you know, being taught that to be the way they are, to look the way they are, is not going to get you where you are needing to go. So, they talk about you need to dress professionally. You need to wear your hair professionally. And they are telling kids even in 2022, right, that to wear your hair naturally, either does not look good or is not professional. So, it is still here, If you can imagine the power of the messaging of Black is beautiful, right? Wait, to be me is a beautiful thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. SM: 41:06 Yeah. And they were, and they were challenging at Ohio State now, whoever were there, they were challenging the legitimacy of the new Black studies program. The person they had hired, his last, his last name was Nelson, Dr. Nelson. He was an academic scholar from someplace afar that came in to lead this. The credentials were unbelievable for this man. And he was given the chance to start at Ohio State and he did a great job. NB: 41:34 Yeah. What an opportunity, right? And that is some of what is going on at Jackson State. Right. And in the, in the late 1960s, is the arrival of Dr. Peeples in 1967. He says, we are going to have a revolution in our books. And he talks about having, you know, a high-quality education, we are going to show them something, we are not going to do it by having you know violence, we are going to do it by having a great education, turning you lose on the world. And what he means by that is, that students will begin to have a voice, and that African American life, and culture, and history will be a part of what they have access to, and he found what becomes today, the Margaret Walker Center. He begins to invite Black writers to campus, He allows Stokely Carmichael to come, and others are like, "Why are you doing that?" he is like, "Well, you do not understand. You have to allow people to express themselves." SM: 41:37 Yeah. Yeah. NB: 42:23 You know, it was a brilliant move on his part, in terms of engaging a sense of trust with the students who are like, "Whoa, really, you are going to let Stokely Carmichael come," and Stokely Carmichael meets with him, and he is really surprised. And he says to Stokely Carmichael, "I am part of a new generation of college presidents, we are going to be a little bit different than what you remember," and so he is, he is also facilitating. So, even as students are, are claiming more power, they are fortunate enough to have an administrator that recognizes that, that is the right thing to allow. That, that is really important for their well-being. And so, it is this beautiful sort of, growth of, within the context still of a white board of higher education. So for that president, he is navigating something very difficult, which is trying to protect the students from this, you know, the white board of higher education, but also allowing them, and I should not even say allowing, but getting out of their way so they can do the things that they want to do, which is to express themselves to study, you know, what is going on with the war to ask, and raise questions about voting rights to, you know, explore the inequities that they are, they are experiencing its students at a college in a system in which the other schools are better resourced. I mean, they are so aware that what they have at Jackson State is not the same as what is at the University of Mississippi. SM: 43:40 Yes. NB: 43:40 And they are unhappy about that. And he is making space for them to know that at least. So it is, it is a, I do not want to say magical time. But I think it is a time of such extraordinary expansion of possibility. And I think that is important in understanding why the police might assault the campus, right. And that is the campus they attack. It is not a campus in which things are staying the same. It is a campus that is changing. SM: 44:06 Right. You bring up another, other important thing that, it was not the first time has students died on college campuses. If you have, you know, we think about Kent State and the four that died and the two that died at the Jackson State but, do not forget the those who died in Orangeburg in 1968. NB: 44:25 That is right. SM: 44:26 Jack Nelson wrote a great book on this. NB: 44:28 Yep. Yeah. SM: 44:29 If you have not read the book. NB: 44:30 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. SM: 44:31 But I you know, and I know that one, two died at Berkeley too, I think in, early on during shootings or something like that. So it has happened before, but the publicity for Orangeburg was just like the publicity at Jackson State, which was nothing. NB: 44:50 Right. Well, that is one of the things I find really interesting is absolutely, there was no, no publicity for Orangeburg. Not only that, but the only person who does prison time for it right, is Cleveland Sellers who is actually a Black activist. SM: 45:04 Yes, I, yes. NB: 45:05 Right. There is this terrible assault on young African Americans, and the only person who faces prosecution is someone who is not responsible for it. But, the other thing I was going to say about Jackson State that is really interesting is that it actually does get publicity at the time. It actually is on the front page, and not in the same way that Kent State was, but it is on the front page of The New York Times, it is in, it is on NBC News, ABC News, CBS News, it is in the one-year anniversary, Playboy runs a multi-page story about the funeral for James Green. So, it is not that people did not know about it in 1970, many people did. And that is why the forgetting of it for me is all the more important to trace. Because it was known and then unknown, how do we do that? And, we do it again, and again, and again, as a white community, it turns out. SM: 45:54 When the tragedy or the killings, Alan Canfora, used to say- NB: 45:58 Oh yeah. SM: 45:59 -let us start making sure we say the killings at Kent State not the tragedy, and it is the killings at Kent State and Jackson State. NB: 46:06 Yeah, yeah. SM: 46:06 And, but the shootings at Kent State or when it, it happened it, it affected America like I have never seen before. NB: 46:18 Absolutely. SM: 46:19 I will look at the college campuses reacting to it all over the country. You know, after Nixon gave the speech going into Cambodia, which we have been in for a long time already. NB: 46:28 Right-right. SM: 46:29 And the fact is that I am, I am just one example of probably millions of college students at the time who said, you know, it affected their lives forever. Now- NB: 46:41 Oh, yeah, absolutely. SM: 46:42 -but then 11 days later, the, to it, no one talks about the, it should affect their lives as well. And you get to thinking, well, who is creating a racial issue here? NB: 46:56 Right. SM: 46:57 Is, you know, we are not talking about Jackson, we are not talking about the state of Mississippi. We are talking about what is happening in the media. What is happening in the- NB: 47:05 Yeah no, that is right. SM: 47:06 -yeah, I am, I am still trying to, boggled, my mind is boggled on this issue. NB: 47:12 Right. But I think it is a really, I mean, I think you are going right to the heart of, of what is so important, which is, how do we manage to make some things remain part of our national narrative? And, other things do not. So, if you look at a high school history book, I bet they will include Kent State today and I bet they will not include Jackson State. The very best college textbooks are beginning to include Jackson State. But again, how is it that we, we, you know, how is it that we move from knowing it to not knowing it, and it takes a great deal of effort, it seems- -to me, and it is, it is not somebody, it is not conspiratorial, it is not somebody saying, "Oh, let us remove this from the story." But rather, it is a much more insidious series of small laps by newspaper editors, I looked, I tracked the Chronicle of Higher Education. It was fascinating to watch how it went from having several pages on what happened to Jackson State at one point. I cannot remember if it is the fifth-year anniversary, but a few years out, they have a big come, you know, two-page story big spread on Kent State. And then they have a little you know, what do you have those little sidebars called "Others Who Died," and that is where they put Jackson State. SM: 47:43 Right. Oh wow. NB: 48:20 And that is that effort of like, again, they are not trying to be cruel, but they are imposing sort of a white supremacist historical lens, here is the one that matters, here is the ones that do not matter. Right? SM: 48:31 Yep. NB: 48:31 And it happens, and that is how we make it happen. It makes us, it just makes me very conscious of the ways in which white supremacy is so systemic. I mean, there is a reason we use that kind of language, it is because, it is in the air we breathe, we commit it constantly, without even realizing we are doing it. [crosstalk] The needing to be so conscious of that is, is one of the reasons I think to know history is so important. SM: 48:53 When it first happened, I was reading the press about Kent State. And, it was the talk about "Well, why did not, why did not happen at Berkeley, or Columbia, or a University of Wisconsin, or Harvard Square," that were, you know, even Ohio State, and Ohio University, by the way, was the most liberal of all the campuses at that time and had some of the worst protests. NB: 49:21 Right, oh yeah. SM: 49:22 And so, but nobody died there. But they died at Kent State, which the press kind of made it look like they were a conservative campus that has not- -really been that active. And then the same thing is true you brought up in your book with Jackson Spade, Jackson State trying to compare with Tougaloo. NB: 49:31 Right. Right. SM: 49:40 And you know, that had a history of activism and Jackson State had not so- NB: 49:45 Yeah. SM: 49:46 -it is a, yeah, and your book is going to help this, definitely going to help this. NB: 49:53 Certainly the purpose of it, and I think it is the reason people were willing to speak with me, because here I am a white scholar, they have never heard of contacting them out of the blue, asking them to talk about a horrific event in their life that has tremendous meaning to them. And yet, you know, you know, dozens of people were willing to tell me their stories. And I think it is because they want the story to be known, and they are frustrated by the way in which it has been forgotten. It irks people deeply, that the story of what took place on that campus is not broadly known. And so, if my book can do anything toward that, it is only because the people to whom it happened, want that to happen, and were willing to help me, with the work I was trying to do. It was a stunningly supportive and kind response that I received from every single person I interviewed that had some connection to the school at that time. SM: 50:47 What is become, the Jackson State of today, I just want to know, I know they do have remembrance events every year. NB: 50:54 Yep. Yep, absolutely. SM: 50:55 And that is very good. And I know sometimes they have small numbers. Kent State has not had a high, a lot of, heavy numbers in recent years as well. But, it is still a steady group that comes. Is it important that it happens? How is Jackson State right now in terms of, you know, the school is, is it, you know, the courses is, is there activism on campus, is? NB: 51:22 You know, I do not I, it is a very, very different place than it used to be. At the time when it was Jackson State College, it was a single campus, and a relatively small campus. Today, it is a sprawling University, with pieces all spread all over Jackson, the city, featuring different things. So, you know, schools of media or that kind of thing spread out, too, it is a very different place, it is much, much larger. The home campus, which was the original Jackson State College, I believe, is still desperately under resourced. They, the library, for instance, I know is understaffed, because I have spent a lot of time in that library. I do not actually know the personality of the school. I know that there are still a number of remarkable people working there. I have met some of the historians there, and they are just first rates and people who really care about this story, and have made an effort to keep it alive. So, they have been very actively involved in the memory work. As I mentioned before, Professor Robert Luckett, who runs the Margaret Walker Center has been fundamental to the efforts to keeping the story alive. But, I do not actually know the personality of the students per se. I did interview a couple of young people just out of curiosity, their familiarity with the story itself. And it was interesting, my sense is that many students who go to school there really do not know much about what took place. There are those that do, and who are part of the remembrance efforts. But I think, in general, most of the students are not aware, which is odd, because in fact, like the major, beautiful sort of walkway in the midst of campus is the Gibbs Green Plaza, named for the two young men who were killed. But, and my sense is that the campus is-is like Kent State, I think it is very hard to keep the memory alive, even though I think both institutions have worked hard at it. The other thing I would say about Jackson State is, for a time, the campus was, the administration was interested in remembering the killings. Then, there was a period during which I think they were tired of being known only for the killings. And, I think the administrator sort of pushed back a little against the remembrances. And, that was certainly the case when I was first starting my project. I was not, how can I put this, upper administration might not have been that excited about this being a story that people were talking about. There is somebody I supposed to interview, who was a staff member who was not actually allowed to talk to me, which was very odd. I think that is over. And, I think they are back to understanding just how important this is. And they had a, a wonderful series of events planned for the 50th anniversary, which were tragically undercut because of COVID. But last year, on the 51st anniversary, they had a beautiful graduation ceremony right on the plaza right at the site of the shootings. And it was, you know, supported by the University, and was really just a remarkable event. So, I think the campus today is a place where that story is, if not broadly known, it is nevertheless, one that is considered really important to the institution, and there are people working hard to make sure its memory is as present as possible. SM: 54:47 You know that, that reaction or maybe lessening the remembrance events or something like that. It could be the generations are shifting here now, and that the boomers are now the older, the elders. NB: 55:00 Oh yeah, oh yeah. SM: 55:01 And millennials are now taken over in terms of leadership positions. Millennials themselves cannot stand the word diet and, that they say that is a boomer generation word. NB: 55:17 [laughs] SM: 55:17 So now the CEO of Coke is, I think, is going to be getting rid of the word diet on all their drinks, eventually, it is going to be zero sugar. Because, millennials let it be known to Coke and Pepsi that the diet thing should stop. That is from another era. [laughs] NB: 55:35 You know what, oh that is very funny. I am sitting here with a Diet Coke in my hand. SM: 55:39 [laughs] Well, I drink it all the time, so. NB: 55:41 I literally have one in my hand as we are speaking, so. [chuckles] SM: 55:44 Did-did you ever see the other book that was written on Jackson State by Mr. Stoppard? NB: 55:49 Yes, I did. Yes, I did. SM: 55:52 Yeah, he wrote that. I interviewed him- NB: 55:55 Oh, good. SM: 55:55 -maybe six, eight months ago on that book. And I think that, then that was a dissertation or something like that, he was writing a paper and then ended up becoming a book. NB: 56:06 Yeah, yep. And he did a lot of really important research that was very helpful, helpful for me, because he had collected some resources, and that alongside with resources collected by Jackson State itself, meant that there is an amazing Gibbs Green collection that is held both in the archives at the university, but also in the Mississippi Department of Archives and History, they have a microfilm copy of it. So I was able to access some things, that would have been much harder for me to find, without the work that he had done. So I am very grateful to him for the, the work that he had done on the story. I think the, the one place that I would, would push back is that he talks about, he uses the language of riot. And I think that is really a misrepresentation. SM: 56:50 Right. NB: 56:51 In the spring of 1970, the kinds of things that were going on at Jackson State can hardly be called rioting- SM: 56:56 Yeah. NB: 56:57 -in a time when there was such extraordinary unrest nationwide. So that is really, if there was one place I really wanted to push back on. It was, it was to, make the case that this was a murderer, and be racially charged, and racially motivated. SM: 57:12 I-I was amazed that he had the courage to go to Jackson, and to be walking around, and be in that environment for a while because of, when he wrote the book, it was pretty close proximity to what had happened I guess. NB: 57:25 Yeah, no, that is right. SM: 57:26 So, you know, I asked him, if he was afraid he was not afraid, just wanted to get a story, so. NB: 57:32 Yeah-yeah, no, exactly. SM: 57:35 Yeah, I do not embrace it when you are talking about boomers, you are talking about African Americans as well. And what, as a scholar, what has been your thought on the boomer generation as a whole, it was 74 million, it was the largest generation in history. And now the, the millennials are the largest generation, they are about 78 million. So your thoughts on, you know, only about 7 percent of the boomers are really involved in any sort of activist activity. And, of course, 93, we are not, percent we are not in that large generation, so. And oftentimes, the media portrays the (19)60s is, it is all about that 7 percent and not about the 93 that were just going about their daily activities and trying to make a living. Your just, just your thoughts on the impact of that generation. NB: 57:58 Wow. Well I think, and this is, it is such a large topic, but I would say that, to suggest that it is only 7 percent, I would not want to demean, nevertheless, the impact that that generation had, I think they were able to, in fact, awaken the nation to some really serious questions, and issues that changed all of our lives. Now, the fact that today Roe has been reversed, makes me feel like the changes we thought were permanent may not be. But when you think about the Civil Rights Act, and the Voting Rights Act, I mean, these are, and Roe for that matter. And you think about where we have come in terms of LGBTQ rights, you think about all of the transitions that have taken place, the ways in which the meaning of who is really a citizen, and what that means has expanded. It is extraordinary, what that time period made possible. And you really do have to credit especially the young people who, who, you know, did the work of calling and enacting change. It was not going to happen without the activism that, that 7 percent did. And so, I think the I think the boomer generation did extraordinary things. The other thing that is interesting to me is, is when we think about how are we defining who an activist is because my own parents were very traditional in the sense that my mother was a homemaker. My father was, you know, out working for a living, we were very traditional family in some ways, but we were also well aware of the war in Vietnam. And the day that Kent State happened, you know, my mom served dinner in what would be sort of our more formal setting, which we did not usually eat out, except if we had guests and because it was this big, terrible moment in our nation's history. So, we were not an activist family. But we were certainly awakened by and cognizant, awakened by that generation, and cognizant of the issues because of the young people of that generation. So, I think the impact is really quite extraordinary. And I know there has been enormous pushback. But I will use the language I guess, just as conservatives generally, to discredit that generation, in ways that I think are unfair. Surely there were, oh, what was the word I even want? There were people who went too far, there were things that were foolish, find me a generation of young people where that is not the case. [chuckles] And you show me a miracle. SM: 59:39 Yes. NB: 1:00:53 Right-right. I think for, for whatever failings that generation had then, and has had subsequently, its accomplishments, I think, are not to be, should not be misunderstood. I think they are enormous. And I think we continue to live with those. The fact that I am a college professor, as a woman, is because of that generation, right. Civil Rights Act made it possible for me to have the job I have to get into graduate school and to get a position that simply would not have been possible without it. How long and how permanent those changes will be, I think, is much, much more up for grabs than I ever could have imagined. SM: 1:01:32 Yeah. I-I did not know that that vote took place today. I did not know, so. NB: 1:01:43 Oh, sorry. I am pretty sure that is right. I have, yes. I believe it was overturned this morning. SM: 1:01:47 Oh, my God. NB: 1:01:48 I think the decision came down. SM: 1:01:51 Wow. That is going to be, woah. One of the things I want to talk about here- NB: 1:01:57 Yep. It overturned Roe v. Wade today. SM: 1:02:01 Wow. NB: 1:02:01 And apparently, the part by Thomas, has written something that says, you know, and this is only the first effort, you know, now we have really got to get to work overturning the, I do not know what he said. So, I will not repeat it. SM: 1:02:13 Wow. NB: 1:02:13 But I need to read it because it sounds like there is an intention. It is- SM: 1:02:17 Right. NB: 1:02:17 -sort of terrifying, if you have the values that you and I seem to have. SM: 1:02:20 Yeah, and I am, I think the if, the voting issue is another thing that is- NB: 1:02:26 Yeah, me too. Oh. SM: 1:02:26 -scaring the heck out of me. I work on the elections and I cannot believe that we are talking about this. NB: 1:02:32 No, me either. SM: 1:02:32 2020, 2022. I want to talk about the, when Black power came about and of course, Dr. King and non-violence. When you think of non-violence, you think of the, think of Dr. King, you think of Byard Rustin. And, you know, most of the- NB: 1:02:47 Reverend Lawson. SM: 1:02:49 -Roy Wilkins, James Farmer, John Lewis, Julian Bond, Shirley Chisholm, that whole group- NB: 1:02:55 Right. SM: 1:02:55 -Roy Wilkins. When Black Power came, I can remember a picture of Stokely Carmichael standing next to Dr. King. NB: 1:03:06 Yep. SM: 1:03:06 And he is talking and Dr. King is kind of motionless, with his hands, I think, on his chin or something like that. And it, it almost made it look like he was lecturing to Dr. King, [chuckles] and I, you know, when you think of the changes that happen, nonviolent, nonviolent protests was crucial, in the changes we did in America. And then also, we know what happened with Black power, it also helped change in a different way. NB: 1:03:38 Yep. Yep. SM: 1:03:39 But then we get then we also have the Muhammad Ali's, of the world taking stands against the Vietnam War. NB: 1:03:47 Yep. SM: 1:03:47 And Dr. King in 1967, did something that no one thought he would ever do, and that is a– yes, speech at Riverside Church. And, of course, was Rabbi Heschel right next to him who had influenced him to do that speech. NB: 1:03:55 Speech at Riverside Church. SM: 1:04:04 So your thoughts on this whole business about, you know, Black power and nonviolent protest be the, you know, not a battle, but you know, a petition. NB: 1:04:04 Right. Well, I think that is the key, well I think that is the key is that, I think it has really been unfortunate the ways in which at the time, certainly the media, publicized this as if it was an internal struggle, and certainly there was that going on. But, you know, Dr. King remains close friends with a lot of those young people who are advocates for Black power, right, the fact that they have different approaches to it does not mean that their end goal was not the same. And this is a point my students will always want to make. They will say, "Well, but wait a minute, what was Black Power trying to get and how is that different from what Dr. King was trying to get?" The point as well, different routes do a lot of the same things. And so for me, I continue to think about, the reason this is important to me is I think it is really relevant in the context of trying to make change in 2022, I would argue there is always room for lots of approaches to creating change, because you will change some things with that appeal to conscience, you will change some people with that appeal to conscience, non-violence, for me will always be the approach that I would have to adopt. There is nothing in Black Power that says it is not also nonviolent, by the way. SM: 1:04:18 Right. NB: 1:04:23 The thing that was different in Black Power is the articulation, both of a determination to claim power, but also a determination to create one's own lives and to be self-determining, and also to defend oneself. And that is, I think the part that was, was most troubling for someone like Dr. King. The reality is that Dr. King's people had carried guns in their, you know, in their, the trunks of their cars and, and many of the people involved in nonviolent direct action, were willing to be armed as needed. And so, in the context of that moment, historically, even the issue of self-defense strikes me as one that did not divide the camps as, as vividly as the press is portrayed. And I think many historians have worked hard to show the ways in which there was actually great continuity between those, the parts of the movement, not only in terms of people, but that many of the ideas that we associate with Black power have roots reaching back all the way through the Civil Rights period. Are they two different approaches? Absolutely. Are they necessarily in competition or in conflict? I am not as condensed. SM: 1:06:28 Yeah, I know that, Snick, Stokely was part of Snick. And he, Black power to kind of took over Snick as well. NB: 1:06:36 Yep. SM: 1:06:36 And some people that had been there a long-time kind of left Snick, John Lewis- John Lewis went back and they became a congressman. [chuckles] NB: 1:06:40 And some were eventually thrown out, [crosstalk] kicked out the white members in (19)66, so. Right, right. SM: 1:06:50 I do not know, if, he really was not into that, so. NB: 1:06:53 No, that is exactly right. No, but it was a very painful, very painful turn of events for those who are really dedicated to nonviolent direct action, as a way of life which clearly John Lewis was. And as Dr. King was, so that, yeah, there was there was so much tension and so much anger, and some of it right played out and sort of lashing out against one another, which you know, is, as I look at, as a historian, I am seeing, oh, divide and conquer, how effective and I can see it happening sometimes with young people today where, you know, those old notions of are you radical enough? Are you Black enough? Are you, you know, are you fighting the fight hard enough? You are not doing it my way. That is often, you know, you start thinking about agent provocateurs from the F.B.I. back in the day, right, some of that friction was surely promoted by right the F.B.I., and its COINTELPRO, and by others who were like happy to see conflict within the movement. SM: 1:07:50 Right. NB: 1:07:51 So, I am always cautious about seeing these things as a fight from within without also wanting to look for what, what are the external pressures creating that? SM: 1:07:58 I think Black power also had somewhat of an influence on African American students in their protest against the Vietnam War. Because at Kent State University in 1970, you did not see any of Black faces, you might. There was an effort, James Michener wrote the first book on Kent State, it got full of mistakes, full of mistakes, and everything else. NB: 1:08:09 Yes-yes. SM: 1:08:11 But, what he does talk about in there is there was an effort made to make sure that no African American student was on the, out there with a white stripe- NB: 1:08:23 That is right. SM: 1:08:24 -on that protest. And that, you know, because our role is to be fighting for civil rights issues, not about the Vietnam War. And- NB: 1:08:37 It is also because they knew they get, you know, they knew that they were, would get, you know, they would be the first ones to get hurt. SM: 1:08:43 Right. NB: 1:08:44 And they knew it. SM: 1:08:46 Yeah, and that that is really interesting, because nobody talks about it. NB: 1:08:52 Right. SM: 1:08:52 And if you look at the pictures, I do not see any African American students. NB: 1:08:56 That is why I think Tom Grace's book is really useful. SM: 1:08:59 Right. NB: 1:08:59 I think he really fills in the relationship between the anti-war activists and the Black union students who are also very active on campus, and were engaged in anti-war activism but that they were really aware of what were the danger moments, and when they saw white students acting out, they were not going to get in the way because they knew that they would be the, the targets. SM: 1:09:17 I want to read something that you wrote in, on page 59 of your book. NB: 1:09:22 Let us rip that bad boy open and see what I said. SM: 1:09:25 And it is, it is the beginning of the second paragraph there is, I just I grew up down here. I just, I said I have to have this in the interview. "This was certainly true in Mississippi, where the growing influence of Black power prompted a hostile and militarized response by the authorities. Across the state at the historically white institutions that had begun integrating at the HBCUs, African American students are organized first on their own campuses, and then between campuses across the state. Like African American students around the country, they focus on the persistent white internalism of those who control their educations, the absence of student voices and campus governments. I know that, I experienced that, the need for an intrusion of African American curriculum, faculty and administrators into their educations and the career, and the under resourcing that lead to a second-rate educators and education." I thought that was a very well written, I had to, I had to quote it, and it is get into the, the law and order thing. So I just, I do not know if you have any more to say on that, or? NB: 1:10:37 No, I just it goes back to a point that you made earlier, which is, as we think about the changes that were taking place, on college campuses, in particular, when thinking about Black college campuses, the ways in which students were in the lead, right, they were the ones who understood what they wanted and needed. And that is how we end up with a wonderful African American studies programs that we have today, with some of the, the still too limited Black leadership on our institutions. That, they understood what they needed, and what they wanted. And they were the ones really pushing for the change that, you know, so many of us, you know, came to be the beneficiaries of I would say, in my own case. And, and also, I would note that that paragraph is based on work that was done by other scholars who have done the work of researching, and helping us understand the kinds of things that were taking place in that, in that era, beyond the Jackson State campus. SM: 1:11:32 Right. NB: 1:11:34 I think especially of, of Professor Williamson, who's up at the University of Washington here, right in Washington state who has just done wonderful, wonderful work on the history of Black education in Mississippi and more broadly, Joanne Williamson, she wrote, "Black Power on Campus," on the University of Illinois, was one of her early books, and then she wrote, "Radicalizing the Ebony Tire, Ebony Tower," which was really, really influential for me. SM: 1:12:01 You, you talked about the trials afterwards as well, and, and nobody was really charged with a crime. NB: 1:12:10 No. SM: 1:12:11 Yeah. NB: 1:12:13 No, they were not. The two. It is really horrifying. The two grand juries are influenced by their, the first one is led by a federal grand jury by a horrific man who was well known as a racist, long beforehand, he had overseen the trials for Freedom Summer, for instance. And so, it was the murder of Cheney Schwerner and Goodwin, Goodman over Freedom Summer, and he, his, his sort of charges to the jury are just laced with the sort of law and order, racially inscribed law and order rhetoric that we associate with that time period, and that is so costly, and the same sort of viewpoint is done by the hounds, Hinds County grand jury as well. So, the only person who is ultimately charged with, first charged with a crime is a Black man, not unlike what happened in Orangeburg, and eventually, the charges against him will be dropped for lack of evidence, and he will plead out on another on another charge. So, no the legal system is a complete failure for them. When they tried to sue, they are unsuccessful in the first suit. But, they had known all along that they would likely be unsuccessful at the local level. But when it goes to appeal, they are successful. But, it turns out that all the officers are covered by sovereign immunity. So, they try to take the case to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court is unwilling to hear it. SM: 1:13:45 The, Kent State is, has been paying tribute for years for the four who died and the nine who were wounded. And I know Jackson State has been paying tribute to the two who died. But, what about the ones that are wounded? And, do they keep, is there a list so that people do not forget the students who were wounded? NB: 1:14:07 I think that is a really interesting question. I think the answer is kind of no. I think some of those who were wounded have been very outspoken and active, including one man whose-whose written a couple of personal accounts of what took place on those days, but the vast majority of them have, have been relatively quiet. Vernon Steve Weakley is the man, I should say his name aloud who has written a couple of books about his experiences with the shootings, and what it meant in his life, and he has been very active, and very public about it. But there are others who are, who are quiet about it, who have chosen not to, to be public figures about what took place in their lives. Some of whom were really anxious to be interviewed, some of whom were, I did not know how to find, but so it is, I can say that many of those who were at Jackson State in 1970, have gone on to really remarkable public careers. I tried to talk about that, in my book, the ways in which many people were inspired to try to make change, because they could not, you know, could not stand what had happened to them- and to, to the kids around them. But I also know that there are people whose lives were really influenced, you know, in negative ways by what took place, and who, you know, really feel that, that what was possible for them and, the capacities they had, went somewhat, unmet because of the, the derailing that, that shooting had-had in their life. SM: 1:15:14 Right. You know at Kent State, I think two of the nine, just want, want to have their privacy, so. NB: 1:15:40 Yeah, yep. SM: 1:15:41 But, seven of them have been willing to come back to events and speak, and. NB: 1:15:44 It has been interesting people who, who had not been to events who were there, not necessarily people were injured, but just even people who have been at the dorm that night. I talked to one man who had not been back in, I was there for the 45th. And he had not been back for any of the remembrances until that one. SM: 1:16:03 Wow. NB: 1:16:03 Turned out, he was a really close friend of Philip Gibbs. And he ended up letting me interview him, he was not sure about it. And I said, you know, just think about it. There is no pressure but, and we ended up having a really, really powerful conversation, and- SM: 1:16:18 Is there anything for those two that had been done in their name, besides having a plaque or a- NB: 1:16:26 We had a whole, there is a, the whole plaza walkway through the middle of campus, so they closed off Lynch Street. And it is a plaza, kind of walkway through the middle of campus, and it's named for both of them. SM: 1:16:35 Very good. Very good. NB: 1:16:37 It is really good. And that was, that was a plan that people had, I think in mind, perhaps, from the get go, because the students had wanted Lynch street closed for a long time. SM: 1:16:45 And when you kill a person, or a young person you are, you are destroying a legacy of that person. NB: 1:16:50 Yep, no that is right. SM: 1:16:52 Every young person deserves a legacy. NB: 1:16:54 Yeah, that is right. SM: 1:16:55 That is why it is so sad. I have a simple question here. Did, did Black lives matter at Jackson State in 1970 and in the America of 2020? And again, the simple question, Do Black lives matter at Jackson State, In Jackson, Mississippi, and in America? NB: 1:17:16 What, in today? SM: 1:17:17 Today. NB: 1:17:19 Whew. I cannot speak to Jackson, or to the campus, I think with the insider knowledge that the question deserves. I think that the state of race relations in the United States right now is, is, is, is devastatingly unchanged. For all of I think, very sincere concern expressed in the spring of 2020. I have not seen measurable change. I am seeing instead the taking away of Black votes, which is for me incredibly regressive, and will be devastating to the well-being of the country. I see ongoing police shootings of young Black people even in my own community. I see outspoken racism, being, you know, spoken by people in leadership positions. I see people being elected to office who have continued to support what I would argue with, you know, a horrifically racist president who was voted out in 2020. So, I think we are, I, do Black lives matter, they matter enormously. Are they treated with, that as if they matter? No, no. SM: 1:18:39 It is another issue that I, you kind of reflect upon or, you know, these great stories, your books, revealing the truth about what happened at Jackson State. It is how all this hard work that was done for so many decades, is now being challenged, to, for setbacks and, and of course, everything's red state, blue state, you know, hawk and dove, and all these other things. So, you know, they always put you in a category so, if you even question, or bring it up, you are one of those. So it, it you know, I, keep bashing some of the people that gave their lives. We did a program once at Westchester University, about the unsung heroes of the Civil Rights Movement, the ones that Dr. King used to always talk about, the people will never hear from, but were involved again, never knew. NB: 1:18:39 Yep. SM: 1:18:40 And-and they are probably turning over their graves knowing what is going on, if they knew what was going on today. And that is why as you mentioned, I mean, I think the voting rights issue is such a substantial one, because its implications are so deep, and the vote was so hard fought, I mean to gain, and that it could be being taken away so insidiously. And with such, and yet with such openness is just, I just did not expect it. And I should have that is, that is my you know, that is my whiteness speaking that I can be so naive sometimes. Well at least we know there are two artists who sang songs that reflected on what was happening in Mississippi in the, in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. NB: 1:20:22 Absolutely. SM: 1:20:23 And that is Nina Simone. NB: 1:20:26 Yep. SM: 1:20:27 "Mississippi Goddamn." NB: 1:20:29 One of my favorites. SM: 1:20:30 And Sam Cooke. NB: 1:20:32 Yep. SM: 1:20:34 And his famous song. And, boy, when you listen to Sam Cooke, I did this with another person. I said, "it brings tears to your eyes." NB: 1:20:42 Yep, it does. SM: 1:20:44 And, and his life ended in a sad way. NB: 1:20:47 Yep, that is right. SM: 1:20:49 So, it is just amazing. I have a couple of general questions here that I wanted, I wanted to just ask you. Does, does time you know what happens in time, is things just like a cemetery, you put a stone up and it fades away over time, and does time kill all remembrance events, once those who were alive are no more? NB: 1:21:15 I do not think so. I think Americans could name all kinds of historical moments and have actually really powerful deep feelings about them, that are far removed from themselves. And that is where what we choose to have, say in our history curriculum really does matter. It is why I think when you see right wing activists calling for the removal of what they are calling critical race theory, it is about trying to decide what we are going to remember what we are going to forget. SM: 1:21:48 Right. NB: 1:21:48 And they are very intentionally trying to make sure that we remember a very particular version of our national history, that is false. But that is, is what I would call whitewashed. And I choose that word very intentionally. SM: 1:22:01 Right. NB: 1:22:02 So, no, I do not think it is it, I think, in fact, Americans, and I would say, I think even human beings generally, part of what makes us human is having a connection to what came before, to having that sense of connection across time in many cultures, right, the ancestors remain alive and with us. So, no memory, and that it should always, but is it always lost, I just think, I just do not think it is true. I think what we remember is very carefully constructed. Again, I do not usually think of it as conspiratorial, increasingly in 2022, it feels very conspiratorial, or people very intentionally trying to decide what kids are going to learn to remember what they are going to be, not ever be exposed to so that it can be forgotten. SM: 1:22:45 I only do this based on you know, I go to a lot of events, and I have seen the numbers get smaller and smaller. NB: 1:22:52 Yep-yep. SM: 1:22:53 And just, Josiah Bunting III, you know, a conservative, but he is the chair of the World War Two Memorial. He talks, he, when he speaks at the memorial, he has tears in his eyes because he says, "As time goes on, I am, we are doing this memorial to remember what happened in World War Two, that they saved the world." But as time goes on, and it is, it is a lot of people coming there. But the people, there is fewer and fewer attending the events, and fewer and fewer, World War Two vets alive. And then you go to the Vietnam Memorial that opened in 1982, the same thing is happening there. NB: 1:23:32 Yep, that was really interesting. SM: 1:23:34 The numbers are dwindling. And at Kent State, even though they were getting great numbers, sometimes. I know the 50th anniversary would have been a big one. NB: 1:23:41 Yeah, that would have been amazing. SM: 1:23:42 But, their numbers are even going down as well. NB: 1:23:44 Yep. SM: 1:23:45 So, I worry that, it is just me because I was a history major too, like you. NB: 1:23:50 Exactly. [laughs] SM: 1:23:52 We cannot forget our history. And that leads me into this question here. What are the main lessons from the (19)60s and early (19)70s that are still in with us? And what are the lessons learned that have been lost as time goes on? NB: 1:24:10 Those are huge questions. I guess the first lesson learned is that change is possible, that collaboration work, that every person's life is of equal value. And then if we could learn that, it would make for a healthier world for all of us. And alongside that, that the forces in here, I am thinking both the systems in place but also literally the white supremacist, not only systems but the, the viewpoints that undergirded are deeply-deeply-deeply woven into the fabric of the country, and how we live and are, are not easy to unfurl or to pull apart. And we can see that I think in the backlash that, that takes place relatively quickly, and that we are living with even, you know, obviously living with right now, that change is never permanent. So, the hard-fought battles of the 1960s does not mean that we do not have to continue to fight for, for justice. And that justice, I mean, in particular, racial justice, because it is the center of this story. But the other forms of justice, for all human beings, for all the ways in which we are different, that does not change the fact that we are each valuable, but that battle is an ongoing one, that one can only avoid, if one has extraordinary privilege, and that it is incumbent on those that have it, myself included, to be a part of that fight. Because it takes it does, in fact, take some power, as well as a lot of hearts, and energy, and commitment, and sacrifice, to create the kind of change that, in the 1960s was made, not by those with power, but ultimately by those who demanded it. As many people have talked about, including Martin Luther King, those whose names we will not know, but who nevertheless, were the heart of the battle. SM: 1:26:15 Yeah. In the past, there is a lot of dialogue. I know in the (19)90s, I can remember on college campuses, there is an awful lot of dialogue, but where is the action? Where is the deed? And-and-and many deeds have come but now the deeds are being challenged. And there does not seem to be the dialogue, because what happens now is that people do not listen to anybody they-they, we have very poor listeners. They, it is my way or the highway. And that kind of a mentality that kind of scares me today in the world. I am a believer that conservatives and liberals can work together- NB: 1:26:56 Absolutely. SM: 1:26:57 -that red and blue work together, the Black and white to work together. NB: 1:27:00 Absolutely. Me too, me too. SM: 1:27:01 And in the, in the interfaith councils of the 1960s, with- NB: 1:27:05 There you go. SM: 1:27:06 -Rabbi Heschel, and Dr. King and the civil rights leaders, and the Catholic priests- NB: 1:27:12 That is right. SM: 1:27:12 -Father Hesburgh. I mean, they work together, they had lots of differences in our beliefs, but they could work together for common cause. NB: 1:27:21 Right, and it has to do with having an awareness. What do I want to say, being able to imagine lives that are not your own. SM: 1:27:28 Right. NB: 1:27:28 Even though you may disagree, you can understand why someone is coming to the place they come to, so that you can then find the commonalities that you might have as well. No, I agree completely. And I worry so much, because I think so much of what is happening right now, here my partisanship is right, my partisan position is so obvious, but I feel like so much of what is being pushed right now from the right, has a singular lack of that kind of empathy- SM: 1:27:55 Right. NB: 1:27:55 -or that kind of awareness of others whose lives are not the same, that you could use the kind of language that, that candidate and then, President Trump use to talk about people from other countries suggests a singular lack of an appreciation for the humanity of other people who are not you. SM: 1:28:11 Right. NB: 1:28:12 And I really feel like that is being rewarded now, in some ways. And, I find that horrifying. SM: 1:28:18 I agree. I agree. I am going to, my last question is something that I have been asking everyone, and that is, what advice or message would you like to give to future generations of students, faculty, and national scholars who will be listening to this tape 50 years from now? What words would advise, 50 years, we are not going to be here. The Boomer generation will not be around anymore. The people who experienced all this stuff from the (19)60s will be gone and (19)70s. Just your thoughts, what words would you advice, give advice to future generations? NB: 1:28:58 I am not a big advice giver. So, I will take this one to a very simple place, which is what I do for a living is teach history. And at the center of that is really teaching young people to both think critically and question everything, and everyone apt to do it with a little bit of humility. And those were lessons that have been taught to be brought to me by my colleagues, especially my colleagues in African American Studies. And I think that, that has been really sound advice that is been given to me, which is ask questions, think critically, question every source, and every person, and everything, and every idea. But as you do, so bring some humility to it. SM: 1:28:58 Very good. That is great word of advice, I would say. NB: 1:29:43 Yeah, I did not create it. It comes to me from others. SM: 1:29:46 All right. Well, I think. that is it. I want to thank you very much for this interview. NB: 1:29:50 Well, I thank you so much. It was a real pleasure to think about these things alongside you. SM: 1:29:55 Yeah, let me turn my tape off here. (End od Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Nancy Bristow https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a938abfe3835040b9164f6963622f9ca.mp3 a0b3d8c69f45b9f53b66efe174431bcc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Neal M. Friedberg Year of Graduation 1962 Biographical Text Neal retired in 2018 from his 49-year practice as a physician-hematologist in New York City. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixities alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Sixities alumni; Medical school; Hematology; Civil rights; Anti-war Movement; Student life; Retirement activities Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Neal M. Friedberg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 31 May 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Testing, okay, I think we are good. NF: 00:07 I Neil Friedberg, class of 1962 at Harpur College, consent to this interview with Irene Gashurov and agree that it be part of the public documents about the 1960s and Harpur College. IG: 00:31 Excellent. Thank you. So perhaps we can start with your identifying yourself when you graduated, and what you do? NF: 00:53 I am a retired physician. I grew up in New York City, in the Washington Heights area, and went to the Bronx High School of Science, and I think that is what led me to be accepted at Harpur College in 1958. It was a new school at the time in terms of its imminently new campus in Vestal New York. In the year that I entered, most of the classes were held in former military huts that had been left either on the Binghamton or Vestal campuses or in Johnson City. It was a preferred school for me at the time because it was a school that I could afford and at the time, New York state and the federal government were generous with scholarship and scholar incentive awards, which essentially allowed me to go to school for practical purposes free for the four years that I attended Harpur College. IG: 02:27 That is a good introduction. Very good introduction. So, you mentioned that you grew up in Washington Heights. Who were your parents? NF: 02:37 My parents were second generation Americans. I am an only child. My mother was born in 1914 my father in 1908 they--my mother worked part time when I was an adolescent, but not prior. And my father was a part of furrier working part time when the industry allowed him to work. Neither, neither of them finished high school, I may add. IG: 03:17 That is tremendous. I mean, given your achievement. But did they encourage what was the culture like at home? Did they encourage your education? NF: 03:30 The emphasis was always on bettering oneself through education. IG: 03:39 So, you were in Bronx High School of Science. Did you show a predisposition to the sciences over what did you want to study? NF: 03:51 I always believed that my mother whispered in my ear from the time I was four or five that I would be a doctor. There was some precedent in the family. With one of my cousins, there was no other person in the family who was a physician. I always enjoyed science, but I always also loved literature. And there was a debate in my Harpur education about whether I was going to switch into literature, but ultimately decided that medicine was probably a better profession, and one could like literature independent of. IG: 04:39 That is a very wise decision to make at such an early age. So, what was your first impression of you know, I mean, you are a city kid, and most of the students were from New York City and-and Long Island, but there must have been a few from upstate New York, and so what-what was your impression of the students? NF: 05:07 At the time that I entered Harpur, there were only two dormitories extant. One was Refuse Hall for the boys, and I forget the name of the girls. The ground floor of Refuse Hall where I boarded each room had two people, two boys, and it was interesting that most of the boys were not New York City boys, but rather upstate boys with a couple of Long Islanders and as a quote, unquote sophisticated New York city [phone rings] IG: 06:06 Okay, so we have resumed with our conversation with Neil Friedberg. NF: 06:17 So, as I said, most of the boys were from upstate New York, and boys being boys, we would often assemble in a room and shoot the breeze. And it was remarkable for me as this quote, sophisticated New Yorker, how intelligent and in their own way, sophisticated these other young men were. And it was an eye-opening experience that has stood me in good stead over the many years, where, in the field of medicine, you meet people from all walks of life and all sorts of interests that I could find a way and accommodate my own interests and conversations to their needs. IG: 07:28 So, what kind of things did you talk about? NF: 07:32 Well, I think it was the common things that boys talked about. Needless to say, we talked about girls, we talked about the classes that we were attending, and we talked about the society as a whole. And it was, it was not a particularly violent period of time, but it was a rather conservative period of time, and I, having come from a New York City Jewish background with a fairly liberal parent and family based would often argue with many of the guys who had much more conservative views of what the society should be and was like. IG: 08:39 So, you know, what was a society? What was your what was your vision of this society and what it should be? Was it about diversity? Was it about, you know, greater democracy, reaching? NF: 08:55 Well, this was, I think, the major issue at the time, I think was still civil rights right, and I had always, even at that time period, time of my life, thought it was outrageous that there was still such animosity. And difficulty for the what we call the black population at the time, or negro population at the time. In 1959 I began to date a young woman at the college who was a freshman who was much more radical than I was, and I think she awakened in me a much more active role in the civil rights movement. I not sure when it was. I think it was (19)60 or (19)61 when the Woolworth sit-ins began. And though we were not in the south, there was indeed a Woolworths in Binghamton, New York, at which we sat in at Woolworths. IG: 10:23 So, tell me what I have heard of sit ins, but not specific to Woolworths, because they-they, why-why were you sitting in? NF: 10:34 Woolworths would not allow Negroes, Blacks to sit at the counter in their stores, and the counters were the place where individuals would sit and have their sandwiches or coffee, etc. Those kinds of counters seem to have faded now to a great extent, though there are still some around. IG: 10:58 Right. So, what did that look like? I mean, a group of college kids would come in and where would you sit? NF: 11:09 We would, we would take the seats at the counter and that order. And that, of course, undermine the economics of Woolworth's. Not of course, for the day or so that we did it. It was not a major issue, but it was a measure of the support at the college level for what was going on nationally. IG: 11:34 And so, where were you sitting in which Woolworths in upstate New York or? IG: 11:41 In Binghamton. IG: 11:42 In Binghamton Woolworths, New York. Um, was- did the police come? NF: 11:47 Good question, I do not remember. IG: 11:49 You do not remember. So, you know you say radical. I am just interested radical girlfriend. How was her radicalness expressed? NF: 12:02 Well, mostly in thought. I mean, I do not think she, you know, was doing creating bombs or things of that sort, or robbing banks, right, you know, anything of that sort. So, I think it was a philosophical radicalism right at the time. IG: 12:29 So, what notions you know? I would like to probe a little [crosstalk] What ideas did she instill in you, or she exposed you to? NF: 12:48 Well, I do not recall that. I do not recall particulars. I think what she did was to extend my own quote liberalism, maybe into a more substantive vein. More than that, I cannot say. IG: 13:19 Maybe to enact your beliefs or? NF: 13:22 Well, in the sense that, in the sense that I would go to a sit in, which is probably something I would not have done as the only child of anxious parents. IG: 13:35 Yes. NF: 13:35 Right. And as time went on, got more involved in the anti-war movement and went to Washington to march in the anti-war marches, or Washington in the Civil War marches. IG: 13:53 Was this after Binghamton? NF: 13:55 Well, I do not remember exactly when they were. It must have been while it while I was at Binghamton, because there was not a lot of time to do that in medical school. IG: 14:06 Right-right. So, what was that like? You know, a bus- NF: 14:12 Yes, bus, right. IG: 14:13 Students [crosstalk] or drove up NF: 14:15 Several busses would drive down to Washington and spend, I presume, the weekend, marching on the mall. IG: 14:31 With-with many other people? NF: 14:34 Yes, both people from the school, as well as the innumerable other people who would show up IG: 14:42 And innumerable other people were people like Martin Luther King, or any leaders there that you recall? NF: 14:50 Well, I seem to remember a Philip Randolph, and there was somebody else. Um, I do not remember attending King's speeches, but I might have, I just do not recall. IG: 15:14 So, do you think that overall? Well, you know, in 1958 Harpur College was just earning its reputation. NF: 15:23 Right. IG: 15:24 Because these are just the beginnings. NF: 15:26 Right-right. IG: 15:27 But what kind of you know was it already sort of the rigorous liberal arts school that- NF: 15:37 The-the- okay, the-the education that I achieved at Bingham at Harpur was much more in the desire for knowledge than the actual high-powered knowledge that I might have gotten at a quote, unquote better school right at the time, the Biology Department was vastly understaffed and with professors who were, for the most part, out of date. I think the best department that I recall was the English department. In particular, I had a wonderful experience with a professor named Dr. Wald, Dr. Weld [John Weld], I am sorry, Weld, who was just a remarkable professor for teaching both the drama theater and poetry and literature, very exciting. And uh- IG: 16:55 Do you remember what you were reading? Was it- NF: 16:58 Oh well for- IG: 16:58 -temporary or was it- NF: 17:00 -well, for instance, the Shakespeare course that I took with him, or maybe it was only a theater course, but Shakespeare was one of the plays, and he was teaching King Lear at the time [crosstalk], and he would stand in front of the class and say, "Do you think I could be King Lear?" And he was about five, five or five, six, and scrawny. And then he would get up on the desk, climb on the desk, and, you know, act out King Lear. And it was just a way of exciting students. IG: 17:41 Was he an actor at some point? NF: 17:43 No idea, no idea. IG: 17:45 The theater department, until this day is remarkably strong. So, he made an impression. And this is this, is this why you were at one point leaning toward, NF: 18:02 Well, I think the department as a whole, well, let us go back. I mean, from the time I was a small kid, I was a voracious reader. I would get into bed when I was, you know, 12-year-old, and take a flashlight, cover my head with a quilt so my folks would not see I was awake, and read under the covers. And I did that throughout that period of time, so that I always liked literature. It was a way for the world to open up to me, over and above the community I had grown up in. And so, when the literature courses at Harpur were exciting, it was a reason to think about entering that field. IG: 18:51 Of course, of course. NF: 18:53 But I was, again, probably a little smarter than I should have been, because I thought I was going to be a physician at Bronx Science. I took Latin because I thought you had to have Latin as a physician. And the sentence structure of Latin is so formal and convoluted that when I would have to write papers for the English department. I recognized that I was not a writer. And I thought you have to be a writer if you are going to be in the English world, in the literature world. IG: 19:36 I mean these, well, I mean it is, it is, it is a good recognition at the at the time, not, you know, but, I mean, these are also skills that can be developed, you know, but you just did not have the inclination, you did not have the inclination that is amazing. So-so this was your Harpur experience. And, um, you mentioned, you know the faculty that made an impression, but you were determined to pursue your medical career. And so, did you apply to graduate school right after that? Or and did you get any advisement from your teachers? NF: 20:20 I did not really need much advice from the teachers. IG: 20:25 Right. NF: 20:25 It was pretty clear that I had the grades necessary to get into medical school. And again, the problem of finances arose, and at the time, there were probably three medical schools in the state that were state schools. There was downstate in Brooklyn, upstate in Syracuse, and Buffalo. IG: 20:50 And Buffalo. NF: 20:51 Right. And I certainly had no desire to go into what was thought to be a what sort of should I say, Alliance pit in Brooklyn, where- IG: 21:07 Really? NF: 21:07 -where it was said that some of the students would change the location of the pins in the guinea pig or animal that was being, you know, dissected so that the students who came behind them would get it wrong and they would look outstanding. IG: 21:28 That is a really good story. That is a really it was that competitive, NF: 21:33 Yes, right, right. Whereas Upstate was not terribly different from Binghamton, except one had to live in the cold and nastiness of Syracuse. IG: 21:45 of course. So, you went to Syracuse. You went to Syracuse. So, you know, did you have any idea about specializing, or did you NF: 21:57 Uh, okay. Good question, when we started to think about specializing after the first year, which were all the usual anatomy, physiology courses, I think I basically decided that I was going to go into hematology, because nobody understood anything about blood, and nobody, none of the other students cared about blood, and I thought it was a ubiquitous fluid, and it also served one of the things that I really had liked, and that was biochemistry. Most of the other disciplines depended upon physiology at the time right and hematology and endocrinology were those disciplines that had an underlying biochemical foundation. So just to pursue that. So, when elective time came, I took hematology, and I also worked one or two summers with a professor who was in the Department of Medicine, but was not a physician. He was a PhD, learning some techniques of electrophoresis, but also going out into the community of Canandaigua County, is that Syracuse, where they were testing and looking after some migrant laborers that would that was taking place at the time, so we would sample their blood and measure different vitamin levels, etc. IG: 24:18 Did you find that they- NF: 24:20 I were in- IG: 24:21 -any way deficient because- NF: 24:23 I was not around long enough to find the answers. IG: 24:30 So, you know, you spent this rigorous you did this rigorous degree, and you probably were very much immersed in your studies, and were you paying attention to- NF: 24:46 -the rest of the world? IG: 24:47 Yes. NF: 24:51 I have no question, right. And it was also true that--I need to go back actually. It was in 1964 which is after my second year of medical school. In this in the second year of medical school, my good friend said, you know, the government is giving out a lot of loans. You know, rather than working at the local hospital, which we were doing at the time, perhaps it would be a good idea to take some loans. And needless to say, that the loans were granted. And he said, as we got the loans, you know, we have all this money. Why do not we go to Europe? IG: 25:38 That is a great way of thinking. NF: 25:47 So, so we did that and ran our full heads off in the summer of (19)64 and that is where I met my wife. We met in the Athens airport. IG: 26:10 Is she American? NF: 26:13 Yes-yes, she was doing the same thing I was doing. And so, I was certainly extending myself beyond my medical interests, but Kennedy got shot in (19)63 and Robert a few years later, etc., and King got killed. It was hard to not be aware of the chaos in the society. IG: 26:53 So, did you see that? You know how? How was it visible to you that society was, in fact, changing from, you know, the more I mean this. These are general. NF: 27:08 Well, this was, this was a radical change. As I said, the (19)50s were rather conservative and the (19)60s were rather liberal. And it was not only sexually, but it was socially as well. (19)53 had been the Board of Education thing in Little Rock as just one manifestation of a major change which was ongoing. I do not remember how many years it took for many of the other southern schools to integrate, and there were always barriers to that integration, from the governors to the local citizenry. I think if you look oh and (19)61 was Cuba, right? It is interesting. If you look at, look at Robert Rauschenberg's art, you see pieces of news clippings from that era in the paintings, but testing to the awareness and the sense that art was a contributing factor to changes in society. IG: 28:37 Yeah, I think that is I believe that too. That it always is in dialog with its time. What about the Vietnam War? You were in medical school, so you were kind of not impervious, but you were protected against the draft. NF: 28:57 Well, here is you are here is your real story. So, in the must have been (19)65 the war is heating up, and the military offered doctors, potential doctors, the opportunity to defer their training, I am sorry, to defer their entry into the military until they completed their training. Actually, maybe this occurred a little later, and so we were offered to go in as either a first lieutenant or as a captain when you finished your training. So, I did elect to take that opportunity to defer my-my entry, because maybe the war would be over, whereas colleagues of mine were going after the internship or first year residency, and then as the war carried on and became increasingly unpopular and embittering, I decided I was not under any circumstances are going to go. So, I had a few options, Canada, jail, or what I decided to do was to apply for conscientious objector status. Now, in order to do that, you have to prove that you had some measure of that prior to your deciding that. So, because of my anti-war activity, etc., I thought I had the criteria. And the military criteria is that you have to be interviewed by a military officer, a religious person, and I am missing one military, the religious, it will come to me anyway, all three people approved of my sincerity. That was the criteria. You had to be sincere and convincing. So, the military turned me down, even though I met the criteria. So, I went to court and at the what do you call it, the lowest level of the federal courts, IG: 32:00 The city? NF: 32:10 No, well, whatever- IG: 32:15 Where was it? Where- NF: 32:16 In New York. IG: 32:16 In New York City. NF: 32:17 Yeah, I was turned down two to one, so we went to the appellate court, where I did win again, two to one, and the military gave me a discharge. IG: 32:37 How long did that process take? NF: 32:41 Let us see from probably from (19)68 to (19)71 or (197)2. IG: 32:52 It is a long time. NF: 32:54 Yeah. IG: 32:54 To be fighting. NF: 32:56 Yeah. IG: 32:56 What- were you already practicing as a doctor? NF: 33:01 When I know well, that is not exactly true when-when I finished my training, I needed a job, and I applied to different institutions in the city here we were going to live in the city. That was a decision made, IG: 33:21 And were you married at the time? NF: 33:23 Oh yes-yes, married in (19)65 I had to tell each of the different institutions what the status could I could disappear at any time. And most of them did not care. I mean, they said, that is fine, yeah, you know, we want you. We will take you, and I took a position. IG: 33:54 What were you doing? NF: 33:55 Hematology. NF: 33:56 Yes. IG: 33:57 Still. So, what did that? What did that involve? What did your work involve? Were you an MD? You are not an MD/PhD? IG: 34:01 Right. IG: 34:01 No, just an MD. IG: 34:08 Just, yeah. NF: 34:11 It involved teaching, some administrative work, running the blood clotting laboratory at the hospital, taking care of patients. IG: 34:25 Right. So-so before you said that so institutions did not care about your wanting to be a subject and being snatched at any moment. NF: 34:42 Right-right-right. IG: 34:43 Because you must have impressed them with all of your training. And- NF: 34:47 Because I had good training. IG: 34:48 Right. You had a good training. May I ask where you had your training? NF: 34:52 Sure, when I graduated upstate, I went to Montefiore Hospital. IG: 34:58 Oh, that is okay. Yeah. NF: 34:59 And spent three, three years there, and then, including one year fellowship. And then I went to NYU and spent two years there. IG: 35:15 Did Montefiore, at the time, have its reputation of providing, you know, first rate care to the poor. NF: 35:23 Yes-yes. They are both terrific institutions in terms of care, of course, right. IG: 35:30 In terms of that. NF: 35:31 Yes, sure, yeah. IG: 35:34 Okay, so-so you know, the-the Vietnam War was your participation in it was you narrowly, kind of escaped. And so, tell us about, we are entering into the (19)70s. So, tell us about, you know what, what your life- NF: 36:03 So, the (19)70s were the time of my beginning my career. Yeah, I took my first job in (19)71. And I had my first child in (19)71 my wife, who is probably very much smarter than I am, who was getting her PhD in biochemistry, environmental medicine at NYU. So, she had a little more leeway, I think, in terms of childcare, but I was pretty diligent about coming home to see the daughter. See my daughter and our son was born in (19)74 and my wife, who kept looking at what I was doing and what she was doing, thought she really wanted to be a physician as well. So, after some contention, she went to she got into NYU in (19)74 in medical school as a sophomore, so she did not have to compete with all the new kids on the block. And finished, I guess, in (19)76 and became an ophthalmologist. So. IG: 37:45 So, in some way, this is the (19)70s, especially the late (19)70s, or the beginning of the feminist movement, but you were already practicing that in your married life. NF: 37:55 Yeah, a little bit reluctantly. I must confess. IG: 37:57 Why? Because you had expectations that she would take a different route, or? NF: 38:03 Well, I guess, because she already had a doctorate and to now go to school when we have, you know, a child in the crib and one on the way, seemed like a lot of burden would fall to me. IG: 38:27 You were the one to do the child rearing. NF: 38:30 Well, to a certain extent. I mean, we hired a wonderful woman who stayed with us for innumerable years. But nevertheless, there are weekends and evenings. IG: 38:45 Right. Of course, of course. So, did you-you know your wife when she became a physician, did you go into practice together, or were you working with a completely so what is her specialization? NF: 39:04 Ophthalmology. IG: 39:05 ophthalmology, of course. I am sorry. I am sorry, of course, of course, I am sorry. NF: 39:11 And we live here, yeah, we, we were living in an Edmonton here in a one-bedroom apartment. And then we came into Manhattan, because we both wanted to live in Manhattan, and we had a very nice two-bedroom apartment, but, you know, we had a boy and a girl, and we thought we would need to do something about that eventually. And we had taken, we had taken a European trip and went to Scandinavia, and she took a social tour while I did some other thing. And what she had learned was that in Sweden, you had to wait about. Seven years before you could get an apartment. So, she said, that is going to happen here. We better buy something. So, we have for several years. We bump it around, looking for something that we could afford, and then ultimately came up with this. IG: 40:18 So, you have had this in your position? [crosstalk] Well, that is, it is, was it a ground space like this? Renovate over the years? NF: 40:31 There was there was only this column, a kitchen here, a small bathroom. And perhaps, as a measure of the feminist movement, we hired a woman architect who was just wonderful, probably the best architect we have had since we have been doing things. IG: 40:55 It is a gorgeous it is a gorgeous apartment. So, did you, you know, did your activity- did you have any activity in politics, or you had no time for that? But you- NF: 41:11 I had no time, and I have no inclination. NF: 41:15 It is not that I am concerned about it, very diligent about knowing what is going on. IG: 41:15 No inclination. So, um- IG: 41:25 Did you did you keep in touch with any of your fellow students from Harpur College? NF: 41:32 Good question. The- in those days when we assembled in one room and, you know, shot the breeze, my roommate was a six-foot three tall guy who used to wear a red cowboy hat, and he lived many places upstate, because his father was in the military, and they would shuttle around. And I really got to like him. The irony, of course, was that he taught me all about contemporary American classical music and about Bach and- IG: 42:23 How interesting. NF: 42:24 Yes-yes. So, we remained friends for a while, and then we lost touch over the years, and then when our 50th reunion time came, I contacted him to ask if he was going to be attending. He was a scholar, political science scholar, well, particularly involved in Korea, and he was still a professor at the time. IG: 42:56 Where was- NF: 42:57 At UC Irvine. IG: 43:01 Oh. NF: 43:03 And unfortunately, he could not come to the reunion. He was too busy. But we have been in contact and visited since. IG: 43:12 Very nice, very nice. NF: 43:14 So, I saw him just a few months ago. IG: 43:17 Oh, here or in California? NF: 43:22 Actually here. Yeah, his wife has family on Long Island. IG: 43:28 I see. So, when you get together, how do you remember Harpur? What do you say about- NF: 43:34 Oh, we do not talk [crosstalk] IG: 43:36 You do not talk. No-no-no. NF: 43:39 You know, our lives have moved on. IG: 43:40 Of course, of course. NF: 43:42 I must say that I enjoyed attending the 50th reunion. I was surprised because I had not liked my reunions at Bronx Science. Had not liked them at all, and I was not particularly enamored of reunion at Upstate, but I like the 50th that. IG: 44:08 Why do you say that? Because of the kind of people- NF: 44:11 Yeah-yeah, right. IG: 44:12 Yeah. I think it is, it is a very strong group of people, you know, at least the ones that I have been talking- NF: 44:22 It is interesting that of the people that I remember, I do not know that anybody became that famous from my class. IG: 44:36 Well, you know, as I said it, from your class, from (19)62. NF: 44:41 Yeah. IG: 44:42 The class of (19)62 you know, I-I do not know about the class of (19)62 but I think it is sort of, you know, a quality of a turn, a certain turn of mind that, you know, people were very engaged in their time, and they accomplished something with their lives. You know, whether it got them fame or, you know, they wrote books or they you know, their circle of influence may have been, not as you know, not conspicuous, but, I mean, it was circle of influence in their community, but maybe it was not known about to you know to others. NF: 45:32 Well, you have to remember that the class, I think, had a max of 200 students, and by the second year, it was down to, I think about 105 it shrunk considerably through dropouts and transfers, I guess. IG: 45:50 Dropouts and transfers and the maybe the war, or that the war was true. NF: 45:57 No, I do not think so. Yeah-yeah. And also, there were, I mean, the male female relation ratio. There probably 65, 35. IG: 46:13 65 female, 65 male. NF: 46:15 Male. IG: 46:15 Oh. NF: 46:17 Yeah, there were- there were not that many women. IG: 46:22 And there probably were even fewer international students, minorities. NF: 46:28 Very few. Yeah, I think there were two black kids in our class. IG: 46:35 How do you think that your classmates remember you? NF: 46:38 [laughs] I well, I think other than the ones who I would have re met in the 50th most of them do not remember me at all. I was not uh- IG: 47:06 But what how do you think that they remembered, if they you know, certainly the person that you-you know, who teaches at Irvine, remembered you? NF: 47:16 Oh, yeah, sure. IG: 47:17 You know how did he you know, you did not really discuss how you each remembered each other. NF: 47:28 No, it was like there had been no interval time. IG: 47:35 I see, that is wonderful. That is a wonderful feeling. And you met on campus. NF: 47:42 No-no-no. We met here in the city. IG: 47:44 You met- NF: 47:45 You mean originally. IG: 47:46 Originally. You went to the 50th reunion, which was on campus. So- NF: 47:52 No-no, but he did not attend. IG: 47:53 He did not attend. NF: 47:54 Right. IG: 47:55 So, but- okay, so I was going to ask you, know, how was how did Binghamton strike you 50 years later? NF: 48:09 Well, Binghamton, I think, was a pretty rundown city. The two things I remember most specifically about it, or it had a wonderful art movie theater, and it was a very significant factor in my arts world, even to the present. And the second thing was it had a reasonable black community, and it was always fun to go down into the black community to the bars and drink there. IG: 48:52 Well, that is great. So, Binghamton is still a depressed city. NF: 49:02 Yes-yes, correct. IG: 49:04 It is still a depressed city. But at your during that time, there was, perhaps, when you were in college, there was more industry there. I mean, no, NF: 49:14 I was not aware of that. IG: 49:16 You were not aware of that. NF: 49:17 No, the-the, I mean, the only industry I think that I was at all aware of was the Johnson shoe factory. IG: 49:27 Right. NF: 49:28 And they were basically gone already. IG: 49:35 Yeah, I have met people who worked [crosstalk] NF: 49:37 And then IBM was in that area there. And in fact, the botany course that I took often would go to their grounds. The botany professor was a terrific professor, and I guess he got permission to meander. So [crosstalk] IG: 50:02 So, it must have been a beautiful headquarters that IBM [crosstalk] NF: 50:07 You know [crosstalk] IG: 50:09 So-so, you know. Do you think overall that Harpur College prepared you for your future career, not directly, of course, because- NF: 50:19 Well, what I think I started off with was that Harpur prepared me to learn. It made learning exciting and interesting, and whether it was the professors or the courses or the student body, totally does not really matter, but it was- did not quell my interest in learning. And I thought the social milieu, the excitement about politics and what was going on in the larger community of the US was I was very much involved in what was going on at the college at that time, and I think that was also very important in broadening my experience and opening my eyes to what was going on. IG: 51:23 So-so, you know, I am curious, how do you spend your time now? What are some of the pursuits that you are engaged with? NF: 51:32 You mean, as a retired physician? [laughs] IG: 51:36 Yeah-yeah, yes. NF: 51:38 Well, let us give a universal overview. We spend nine months of the year in New York City and three months in a home that we bought in California. IG: 51:51 Where in California? NF: 51:54 Santa Barbara. Not bad, huh? IG: 51:57 Not bad, not bad. NF: 52:00 We have been very fortunate. And so, of the nine months here, we also have a house upstate New York, so [crosstalk] we are just east of Rhinebeck, Hudson Valley. IG: 52:19 That is lovely. Been there recently. NF: 52:23 So, we spend weekends up there. So given those three parameters- IG: 52:30 You probably [inaudible] well, I mean from one house to another. NF: 52:36 When we, when we bought the Upstate house in 1973, I said to my wife, who has been the real estate agent in the family, "Well, it is okay. We will buy this house, but we are not going to not travel on vacation," and so we have traveled extensively over the years. IG: 53:01 Where have you gone? Some of the places- NF: 53:04 We have gone to, most of the countries in Asia, standard European travel. We came back from Safari this year in Botswana, Zimbabwe. We have been in Colombia and Argentina, Morocco. IG: 53:28 What stands out in your memory? What-what is, you know, what are some of the most impressive places that you have seen? NF: 53:38 I think if you spoke to each of us, the most exciting time we have ever had was in Cambodia. It was just wonderful. But sometimes getting out of the country revolves around people, and we have very good friends in Turin Italy who we see on a reasonably regular basis and go around Italy with them. So that is also wonderful having known somebody for over 50 years. IG: 54:19 You know, looking back at the decade, at the (19)60s, are you sometimes you know- do you sometimes recognize that you know the world has changed in your dramatically in your lifetime? NF: 54:38 We only hope to live long enough to see it go back to the (19)60s. [laughs] IG: 54:46 That is a great answer. NF: 54:49 I mean, that was the most exciting era that most of the exciting decade that I remember. IG: 54:56 I think so in in every way, almost- NF: 54:59 Yeah. Yeah. IG: 55:00 I think I would, yeah. NF: 55:03 But you had asked me in another- oh, and how I spend my time now. IG: 55:07 Yeah. NF: 55:08 Okay. Well, as you can see, I collect photographs IG: 55:15 Yes. NF: 55:15 Okay, and those the ones you are looking at are not the prime example of what I collect. I collect panoramic photos. It is my niche. I do not- IG: 55:31 These are these are prints. These are prints that you have on the wall. They are not photographs. IG: 55:37 They are photographs. IG: 55:39 So, do you go to galleries, or do you go to antiques? NF: 55:48 Mostly antiques. IG: 55:49 And where do you find them? In New York City, or all over? NF: 55:53 All over. IG: 55:54 All over. NF: 55:55 Yeah, so that is one thing. Secondly, when I started to retire in 1960 [inaudible] [laughter], in 2000 [laughs] Mr. Freud. IG: 56:18 Yes-yes. NF: 56:19 I started to play the piano, and I am not a very good pianist, but I enjoy it. So. IG: 56:29 So, you, you never had music lessons before? NF: 56:32 Well, I played the violin when I was 10-year-old for a couple years. IG: 56:36 Okay. NF: 56:36 I play golf. I go to a lot of museums and galleries. For several years, when I was in California, I worked at the Santa Barbara Museum in the photography department as a volunteer. IG: 56:58 How wonderful. How wonderful. So, you learned a tremendous amount about photography. NF: 57:03 Yeah, but unfortunately, the curator died. IG: 57:08 Have you read Susan Sontag On Photography? NF: 57:12 It is on the table on my upstate New York [crosstalk] IG: 57:18 It is an obvious question. NF: 57:20 Right. NF: 57:22 What else do I do? We entertain a lot. We have a lot of friends here, upstate, California, and then I am having my family. IG: 57:39 And your kids are- NF: 57:40 My daughter is in walking distance with her two grandchildren, and my son, I have to get on the subway and take four stops. IG: 57:48 You are very lucky. You are very lucky. NF: 57:50 It is really a burden, yeah. IG: 57:54 So-so, you know- NF: 57:57 I do not think it is luck. IG: 57:57 What? NF: 57:58 I do not think it is luck. IG: 58:00 You know, it, I do not think it is luck, but luck, you know, chance and luck does play a part, you know? I mean, it is, well, I mean, this is a [inaudible] NF: 58:11 They could migrate. IG: 58:12 They could migrate. This is a philosophical question. I think, I think, you know, certainly, it is a lot of what you have, the life that you have created. But I think that there is an element of luck or not, you know, it is, it is the historic it is the context in which the historical time in which you live, you know, it is the environment around you, you know? I mean, there are a lot of contributing sure forces that are outside of our control, NF: 58:44 Right. [crosstalk] IG: 58:50 If you were to, I would like you to tell us, if you - what lessons did you learn from your-your years at Harpur College? What would you like? What advice would you give to current students who listen to this tape? What-what are important qualities or, you know- NF: 59:20 The problem as I see it, in answering that question is the-the insular nature of our life compared to youth. So, I-I could say things that I think are maybe more universal, and the first one would be not to dismiss people who are so different from you, but rather to take in their experience and way of being and try to enrich yourself from the way they are. The second would be trying to listen to what people have to say, even those that are like you, if their views are different than yours, but not to be so passive as not to argue. My one of my hematology professors, who is a just a wonderful gem of a man, always said that you can always argue with me, as long as it is not an ad hominem argument. I-I guess the other thing would be, just keep on learning things you know your own enrichment is at least as important as what you do, because as you age, you need to, you need to be excited about the life you are living. IG: 1:01:26 Yes, and you need to fill up the spaces that that were taken up so much by your profession. NF: 1:01:33 Sure-sure. I have always told people who are getting ready to retire, because I retired pretty young was the hardest thing to give up. Is not the work you do or your clients, it is your comrades here that the, you know, two second interaction that you have with somebody in the hallway or, you know, is vital, is how you feel? IG: 1:02:06 Yeah, I-I could not agree with you more. And these interactions may be even more important for young people, you know, whose world is. You know, I well, I mean, I remember that in graduate school, my best education, my greatest education, was talking in a coffee house with my- NF: 1:02:31 Sure. IG: 1:02:31 -with my fellow- NF: 1:02:32 Sure, Hmm-mm. IG: 1:02:33 -students. So, do you have any- well, what were, for example, we can expand on this, what were the most important less, what was the most important lesson in your life? I mean, this is, this is sort of answering the question that you have just answered is NF: 1:03:01 Not answered. [laughs] IG: 1:03:03 You cannot answer it. NF: 1:03:04 No. Did not I not answer it? IG: 1:03:06 You did. You did. So, this is, this is not a question that we need to ask. So do you have any concluding remarks, any words of wisdom that you want to impart to our students, anything that you have not said. NF: 1:03:32 Well, I think yes, I would say that in the midst of your most industrious work when you are at the height of your career and apparently overwhelmed by the amount of work you seem to need to do, you have to have some other outlet, something that interests you, whether it be reading a book or taking a photograph or playing tennis or something, has to intercede in the times of stress. I do not believe in stress, so let us take the word out of it in times when you are busiest and most focused, I think you need to unfocus. IG: 1:04:26 I think you are right. I think you are right. Well, thank you very much. NF: 1:04:32 Just add one thing that I forget that have mentioned when I was in the twilight of my career, somebody from Harpur called and asked if I would be interested in not entertaining, but having a student from the college who was interested in potentially going into medicine. Would I mind if they came to the office? Had watched me work, and I- IG: 1:05:07 It is really good idea. NF: 1:05:08 I did that for a couple of years, and had a wonderful time. Just wonderful. The students had a wonderful time. And I did too, because it was like, invigorating. IG: 1:05:20 Right. NF: 1:05:21 You know, because it again. One, you are doing something, I think that is useful. But two, it is teaching. And teaching the young is just a wonderful thing. IG: 1:05:39 It is, it is, even when you were young and you are teaching. NF: 1:05:44 Yes-yes-yes. IG: 1:05:45 It is still a wonderful thing. It is still a wonderful thing. So, I think that we can conclude our conversation, and I thank you very much for a content full discussion, something to- NF: 1:06:07 Thank you. IG: 1:06:08 Thank you for- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Neal M. Friedberg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixites alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Friedberg, Neal M ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Neal retired in 2018 from his 49-year practice as a physician-hematologist in New York City. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-05-31 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Neal Friedberg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-05-31 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 66:08 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1144764bf3676b33d340e61f8ff8d8d7.jpg 4277be9fbdb1f85ea1a33f61eccecd3a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aa7a86b8002899d90d7351c3e845a42e.mp3 146e5c28e2c364f7a012369cdef5993e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Norman J. Ornstein Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:33 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Norm Ornstein is a writer, editor, columnist for National Journal, and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research. He also serves as an election analyst for CBS News. Ornstein received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Minnesota, and a Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Michigan."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Norm Ornstein is a writer, editor, columnist for National Journal, and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research. He also serves as an election analyst for CBS News. Ornstein received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Minnesota, and a Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Michigan.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"The nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Kent State shooting; Jackson State killings; Watergate; Voter rights act; Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam Memorial."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">The nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Kent State shooting; Jackson State killings; Watergate; Voter rights act; Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam Memorial.</span> Subject LCSH Authors; Editors; Journalists; American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research; Ornstein, Norman J.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Norman Ornstein Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ornstein, Norman J. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Editors; Journalists; American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research; Ornstein, Norman J.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Norm Ornstein is a writer, editor, columnist for National Journal, and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research. He also serves as an election analyst for CBS News. Ornstein received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Minnesota, and a Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Michigan. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.144 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 46:33 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/df9edd0945268ba518dba0a04e06737a.jpg 9ba326a76f28ccbc41e7eaa175e233a3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4d971c1d49ee7c5d3fa1b6de545ed6ca.mp3 ca1b13de66ce0321a05cf1adf0c5a7b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Paul Stoller Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:29:19 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: McKiernan Interviews, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Transcribe This Item Daniel Berrigan.mp3 Prev Item Next Item Edit View Public Page Delete Public: No Featured: No Collection McKiernan Interviews File Metadata Daniel Berrigan.mp3 Output Formats atom csv dcmes-xml json omeka-xml Bibliographic Citation “Daniel Berrigan,” Digital Collections, accessed October 12, 2020, https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/admin/items/show/1904. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Dr. Paul Stoller is a a professor of Anthropology at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. He has been concussing anthropological research for 30 years. His early work concerned the religion of the Songhay people who live in the Republic of Niger and Mali in West Africa. Since 1992, Stoller pursued studies of West African immigrants in New York City. Stoller's work has resulted in the publication of 11 books. In 1994 he was awarded the prestigious Guggenheim fellowship. In 2013, he was awarded the Anders Retguis Gold Medal in Anthropology. Stoller lectures all over the world and has appeared on NPR as well as the National Geographic Network. Keywords Baby Boomer; Generations; Revolutionary; 1960s; Women's Liberation Movement; Race problems; Social change; Vietnam War; Vietnam memorial; Healing; Lyndon Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Protests. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Paul Stoller https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65829d97b5e87e01bfb4eca9cf8f290c.jpg 96123d3f7b6889b06c9c8014011cfb05 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/84fb5c1eb3283eb5222bc550d5deccae.mp3 7bf130560ee93de761daf1a646bd58f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Von Blum Date of Interview 2010-02-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He recevied his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He received his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 150:50 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ku Klux Klan; racism; Communist; Paul Robeson; free speech; Anderson School of Management; Universities; students; Ann Coulter; Columbia University protests of 1968"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Ku Klux Klan; racism; Communist; Paul Robeson; free speech; Anderson School of Management; Universities; students; Ann Coulter; Columbia University protests of 1968</span> Subject LCSH College teachers; African Americans—Study and teaching; University of California, Los Angeles; Von Blum, Paul--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Paul von Blum Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 13 July 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): The first question I have is what were your ear early years, where did you grow up, where did you go to high school and college, and who were the greatest influences in your life early on? Was it parents, teachers? What was it in your environment that made you who you are? PVB (00:00:20): Yeah, I grew up in Philadelphia, so I am a Philly kid, but I grew up in a very politically active household. The family background was crucial, both in terms of my intellectual consciousness and my political activism. I come from a Holocaust background. My father was the sole survivor of his family. I actually have a memoir coming out in about a month and a half where I detail all of this. But my father was the sole survivor and very early on in my own life, it was perfectly clear that he understood that racism, that the same racism that killed his entire immediate family was virtually identical the racism that was oppressing the African-American population in the United States. Very early on in Philadelphia, I learned the kind of profound and vigorous anti-racism growing up. From early childhood, I grew up in a progressive family in Philadelphia, and I think probably the seminal event growing up, not in Philly, although I was born in Philly, we lived in a variety of suburbs, Delaware County, Montgomery County, and then most significantly, in Bucks County. As a kid, I went to the Philadelphia public schools and the variety of suburban schools, but the most seminal event occurred in 1957, one of the huge racial crises of the United States. The early civil rights movement occurred there in 1957 when I was 14. My parents and several other families broke the color line in Levittown. Levittown, as you may know, was one of the large post-second World war suburban development. My parents moved there because it was an opportunity for World War II veterans in particular to buy low cost housing. We moved there from Philly. What my parents did not realize was that Levitt would not sell to African Americans. I think we moved there in 1955 when I was 12, and by the time I was 13, my parents were involved in an almost conspiratorial way with a variety of other families, almost entirely, not completely, but almost entirely Jewish in meeting to do something about the break from the color line. By August of 1957, they had arranged for the first black family, Bill and Daisy Meyers moved in. The story of the Levittown integration crisis is well known, and in 1957 in August, there were huge riots, white racist riots in Levittown testing the entry of the first they called Negro family. I was the oldest of four children then there. Now, there were five. Another one was born afterwards and I was the oldest of the five, so I was involved as a spectator in all of the meetings. I was curious, so I went to all of those. I was there when the Myers then moved in, I was there when the mobs gathered and I was there less than a month later when they get Ku Klux Klan in Pennsylvania right across our lawn. In fact in December of 1957, I actually testified against the Ku Klux Klan in Doylestown. My activism started very early on and I saw the kind of vicious hate-filled white racist mobs. They called themselves the Levittown Betterment Committee. Even as an early teenager, I was exposed to the horrific character of American racism and those were probably the seminal events that molded my anti-racist attitude that have remained to this day. Still, I am a professor of African-American studies at [inaudible] and there is a direct connection between my teenage experiences in Levittown and my professional and activist life year. SM (00:05:07): I think there is a book that just came out on Levittown about that. PVB (00:05:10): I have read it. SM (00:05:11): Yeah, and I bought it. I got so many books I bought, I have not had a chance to read. Obviously, what a great upbringing in terms of learning early on and helping shape who you are, particularly when you see injustice and you want to fight it. Would you say that your parents were your heroes because your parents were taking the lead there? PVB (00:05:32): They were the daily role models. They stood up courageously and at a great cost because in 1957 it was kind of late McCarthyism. McCarthy himself had faded, but there was still a great deal of retribution against what was then called premature anti-racist. My father kept losing his jobs, politically inspired losses obviously, and that is what in 1959 of our move to California. My parents traveled in kind of left-wing circles, and so I was exposed early on to that whole leftist culture, not a communist culture by the way. It was a very radical culture, but my parents were never in the party. When I was five years old living in Philadelphia, my parents were active in the Progressive Party campaign by Henry Wallace, party Turgeon campaign in (19)48. But my parents, unlike many of the progressive party supporters, were not communist party members. They were in the non-communist left. SM (00:06:51): Yeah. I mentioned there, and I noticed in reading that you are a big fan of Paul Robeson- PVB (00:06:57): Extremely. SM (00:06:58): I want to tell you a story, but this is your interview, but I think it is important to the question. I know all about what happened in 1947 in Peekskill New York. I found out about this many years after my grandfather died. My grandfather was the Methodist minister in Peekskill from 1954, no, excuse me, 1936 to 1954. I never knew any of this because he died in 1956, but in reading the history books, I could not believe that my grandfather lived in a town that did such terrible things to Paul Robeson. PVB (00:07:31): It was horrible. SM (00:07:32): Pete Seeger was there with him too. PVB (00:07:34): Absolutely, so were other luminaries like Howard Bass and a variety of others. SM (00:07:41): I am a big fan of Paul Robeson too. He was a, what do you call, man for all seasons. He was town in so many different ways. PVB (00:07:48): Everything. I am the first person ever to do an entire university course on Paul Robeson and it is fair to say that from early childhood, I was introduced to Paul Robeson, not only as a singer but as a political activist. My parents said that they introduced me to him in 1948 at the Progressive Party Convention. I do not recall it, but from early childhood on, and this continues through my adult life, I would say that of all the people in America, he is my biggest inspiration. One for his extraordinary courage and two for his multidimensional talents with a sole exception of his problematic personal life, which I do not particularly admire. But other than that, he would be my kind of role model, somebody who was brilliant at everything he did and who had the courage of his convictions throughout the entirety of his life. SM (00:08:59): One thing I find about when you study America in the beginning, near a time when boomers were born after World War II, that period between (19)46 and (19)60 really is that many of the people that were persecuted, I think, whether it be the Hollywood Ten or people in government, professors in universities, all kinds of people, and Paul Robeson being one of them, is that many times the reason they became linked to the Communist Party is because that was the only party that dealt with the issue of race. PVB (00:09:37): They were among the best on the issue of race. Going back to the (19)30s, they were upfront about the Scottsboro case. My parents, they always knew communists. They were always fond of them, but they were themselves never party members. I have ambivalence about the communists, I have always respected them. And this is also generational, when I was born in 1943 and was very much active vigorously in the (19)60s, and so my generation of activists hardly ever joined the Communist Party. I always respected them for what they did. The other hand, I was never blind to their blindness about the Soviet Union challenge. I was always critical of that. I remained so in my teaching, I always point out about the Communist Party blindness toward the Soviet and Stalin's crimes, including Paul Robeson. I am well respected in the ropes and community, but I have never been reluctant to criticize him for his own blindness about Stalin and the Soviet Union. SM (00:10:53): Would not you say though that there was some truth in that late (19)40s and 1950s, maybe even the first few years of the (19)60s, that the people that had some people who had been communists really disliked Stalin, disliked him immensely. They only cared about the issue of race, so, and they got caught up on being blamed for liking the communist system, which they did not. PVB (00:11:16): Sure. Now, there were some like that. There were well-meaning people and I continued to have respect for a lot of them. Many of those people are no longer around. I mean, that is generational. Many of them have passed along. I concur with that. SM (00:11:34): I want you to put your teacher's cap on now because I have some really cross questions to ask about you, not as a student now, but as a young professor in the (19)60s and (19)70s. As a teacher, beginning at Berkeley in the (19)60s through today at UCLA, what in your view, did the university learn from student activism and protests on their campuses? PVB (00:12:00): They did not learn enough. This is extremely important to me. I went to Berkeley in the (19)60s, was very active in the free speech movement, and I think that was one of the moral highlights of the entire history of the University of California. Beyond the specific issue of free speech, what we tried to do in the free speech movement at Berkeley was to reform the university so that it would make the big prestigious research universities to make undergraduate education a much higher priority. As a personal academic, 42 years standing, that has been my highest priority. I am sorry to say that at the institutional level, I have not been particularly successful. At the individual level, I have been spectacularly successful. But the university's priorities have at places like at the University of California, the University of Wisconsin and Michigan, places like that, by and large, they are indifferent to the needs of undergraduate students. What they have learned from the (19)60s, unfortunately, is how to be more clever at containing student protests. SM (00:13:20): Yeah, they are much more subtle, so to speak. PVB (00:13:25): They are. With a couple of exceptions, they no longer bring in the police and the storm troopers to beat people up. They have learned to be much more adaptable, they have learned how to pat students on the head and referred things to committees that never do anything. They no longer use the tactics of brutality that they used when I was a student. SM (00:13:53): What I find interesting, and I do not know about every campus here just from what I know, is that universities have designated spaces where students can protest. Obviously, you do not want them in front of a building when a person's teaching a class, so I think one of them they had learned that disrupt classes time is not the right thing to do. It creates a negative image. But if I were a student today, knowing what happened back then, I would be protesting. The fact that I have to... This is my space, it is the only place that kind of- PVB (00:14:37): Some schools have attempted to do that. Universities are within their constitutional rights that say that there is certain places you cannot... You cannot walk into a professor's class right in the middle of a class because any public entity has legitimate time, place mannered regulations. On the other hand, you cannot just take one small part of a campus and say, this is your free speech area. That violate the First Amendment. I should add here, I am not sure when you have looked me up, I am also a lawyer. SM (00:15:06): No. PVB (00:15:08): I know something about the First Amendment. I have an undercurrent of political legal experience. It is not a major part of my professional or personal identity, but I paid $410 a year to keep my state bar membership up. SM (00:15:24): Well, that is good. PVB (00:15:25): But I know something about this. SM (00:15:27): Yeah, I remember recently in the interview process, I interviewed Dr. Arthur Chickering. I do not know if you know him. PVB (00:15:33): Yeah, he has done a lot of writing on higher ed. SM (00:15:37): He wrote Education and Identity, the Seven Vectors of Development, and he is anything but a radical. He is retired now but I asked him in the interview, is there anything in the universities today that you regret or any thoughts? He says, "Yes, I regret the corporate takeover again of universities." PVB (00:15:59): That is a huge problem and it is moving vigorously in that direction, and I regret it profoundly. SM (00:16:08): These are some specific things here. Now, what did you learn from the free speech movement itself in (19)64 and (19)65? PVB (00:16:15): What I learned was that in order to get anything done in a university, you need sustained collective action. I know from my own career that the successful mobilization of student power can be extremely effective. There have been several instances in my own unusual career trajectory when I have been under attack by university authorities, where I have been able to mobilize student power. It is not so much that they have saved me, which they have, but they have been able to mobilize on behalf of the educational ideals that I have represented for over 40 years. SM (00:16:59): Obviously, these are all issues that were important in the (19)60s and (19)70s. It was even still, some of these things were happening in the (19)80s and (19)90s, but seemed to not be happening today. What did the universities learn about military recruits on campus because they were back? PVB (00:17:14): They were back. I remember both as a students, as young faculty member at Berkeley, we tried to resist that. It is an ongoing problem. At a place like UCLA, we do not have a lot of military recruitment. Basically today, military recruiting is done in working class and neighborhoods where you have a proportion of very poor people and especially people of color. It is not as huge deal as it was because we do not have a draft. SM (00:17:49): We have already talked about this, but what did they learn about too much corporate control or respect to fundraising, which fundraising is such a big thing that the presidents do at all universities, so they may have control over speakers or ideas. Just your thoughts on fundraising within universities today- PVB (00:18:09): That is all basically all they really care about, it is money, and increasingly, you have a corporate dominated university, even a public university, which remains a public entity, you now have corporate sponsorship of research projects, you have corporate sponsorship of athletic programs, you have corporate sponsorship. Even of buildings in the new school of management is now the Anderson School of Management, expect soon with this trajectory that they will start naming the restrooms after- SM (00:18:48): Yeah. I was joking after spending 22 years at a university, and I said, "Well, I wonder what they had put my name on." I think someone joke and said, "Gee, you might get a stall in one of the restrooms," but it would still cost at least a minimum of 10 grand. PVB (00:19:06): 10 grand. I was thinking that would cost me that for a urinal. SM (00:19:12): Good. Who knows? What do you think the universities learned from activist students, the concept of student empowerment? Because students have power today because they control budgets, and I know that students are somewhat linked to presidents overall. Presidents are trying to link up with students more and more. There is a really good website yesterday on CNBC about the president of George Washington University trying to get close to his students. PVB (00:19:40): Yeah, I hope I do not sound excessively cynical, but it seems to me that universities have learned and effectively how-to co-op their students. What they do is they take student leaders to lunch, they promise them letters of recommendation for law school, they bring them to banquets. They do a variety of things in order to neutralize them, in order to keep them from becoming basically a significant effect of oppositional element. Students and administrations are naturally and should be naturally at odds with one another, but university administrators become increasingly sophisticated at muting those tensions. It varies obviously from campus to campus year to year, but they have done a basically good job of keeping student oppositional forces. Although, sometimes they cannot do very much, much about it. Last November, for example, when the regents of the University of California hit the students with a 33, 34 percent fee increase, there were huge rallies throughout the university, and I was one of the speakers. I am an effective public speaker and I will continue to do that a long time to come. SM (00:21:12): In some sense, the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s really did not fear about being active with respect to getting a job whereas the students of the day, if they act, they might not get the recommendations they need to- PVB (00:21:26): Yeah, they are very worried. I understand that it is a tough economy. I have a lot of friends who are very, very active 40 years ago, and many of them remain as I do, very politically active, and we talk about these things. We were never really concerned about what the implications would be, we were out on the streets doing what we did with very minimal concern about what the future implications of our activism would be. That is not the case with a lot of young people today. When I tell them that I got arrested several times, they say, "But did not it hurt your career?" I said, "Obviously, it did not hurt my career. I am standing in front of you in a classroom." SM (00:22:14): What did the universities learn from Kent State and Jackson State in 1970? I am going to preface this with just a comment. PVB (00:22:25): Go ahead. SM (00:22:26): You never hear about it. PVB (00:22:27): No, you never hear about it. My students have occasionally heard of Kent State, they have never heard of Jackson State. Never. Every time I mentioned Jackson state, it is absolutely new. I think what the universities have learned is that in both cases, it was a public relations disaster. They have learned to take all kinds of steps, never to replicate that again. It is extremely unlikely that we will ever see that kind of fatality on a university campus of that magnitude. They will never let that happen again. SM (00:23:05): What do you think the university has learned from controversial speakers on campus? One of the criticisms of the new left today is that the controversial speakers that were on college campuses in the (19)60s and (19)70s, whether Kathleen Cleaver, the Black Panthers or like that, some of the universities did not really like for public relations reasons, has now shifted where the new left of liberal professors and administrators do not like conservative speakers on campus like Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin. Really, what the liberals are doing is exactly what the administrators were thinking back in the (19)60s. What are your thoughts? PVB (00:23:49): I am a strong believer in free speech and where you have leftist attempts to censor people, I would resist that. Having said that, there is no particular reason to ask a Michelle Malkin or an Ann Coulter to come to her university. They have nothing to offer. I have no problem with having thoughtful conservatives, and there are many, but neither Ann Coulter nor Michelle Malkin fall into that category. They are not serious thinkers. SM (00:24:21): How about Pat Buchanan and Bay Buchanan? PVB (00:24:25): They would be worth hearing. I would easily chop either of them up in a debate, but I would not debate an Ann Coulter. The last time I had a debate with somebody as that, I debated the former Congressman William Dannemeyer from Orange County, he was a moron. I could have had a lobotomy and beaten him in the debate. If you are going to have a debate, you should have somebody of reasonable stature and somebody who is not a buffoon like Ann Coulter. SM (00:25:01): I know that the two that seem to have the greatest strengths is William Bennett and Dinesh D'Souza because they are... PVB (00:25:08): They are smart enough so that they are entitled to make a debate. I just dislike both. I do not know either of them, but I just like their position but either of them would be a significantly worthy adversary. SM (00:25:26): I am almost done with this little thing, these are all important. What did they learn from Columbia University? What happened there and the Harvard Yard and protests? PVB (00:25:37): Oh, they have learned to be much more clever. It is extremely unlikely that you will have another Columbia in (19)68. Today's administrators are just a lot more clever than they were a couple of generations. That is going to happen again. They know how to do it, they have become much more patient. They have social control experts and they just know what they are doing more. In some respect, we would be better off if we had better have these more vigorous confrontations, but we will not. SM (00:26:21): What did we learn from, and this happened on my campus, Tommy the Narcs? PVB (00:26:26): They came. SM (00:26:26): Yeah, they came looking for drugs. PVB (00:26:35): Well, that is part of the anti-drug hysteria in this country. I would hope that in [inaudible], some of that will dissipate. Yeah, you hardly have any of that. Certainly, you have drugs on every campus, but the biggest drug abuse on most campuses that I can certainly say that with a lot of confidence at UCLA is alcohol abuse. SM (00:27:06): Two more here. What did they learn from affirmative action and from curriculum reform? Those are the two... PVB (00:27:13): Well, I have been a proponent for 40 years for both. In California, of course, in affirmative action, we have the Notorious Proposition 209, and so we have been fighting... One of my departments is African-American Studies, and I am a member of the Ralph Gate Bunche Center for African-American Studies. We have been in the forefront about trying to do something about the profound underrepresentation of African-American students. We have made modest progress, but I am a strong and vigorous supporter of affirmative action. We need another generation of affirmative action. We have a long way to go. In terms of curricular reform, we are not even close to what we need. We have had some modest curricular improvements since the (19)60s. The wave of student activism in the (19)60s generated important reforms. We would not have had ethnic studies. I was involved in the first wave of protests that created black studies, now African-American studies, which gave rise to Chicano studies, Asian-American studies, Native American studies, and then women's studies. But alpha (19)60s activism, we would not have any of that, so that is been important. Another area that came out of (19)60s activism was a greater commitment toward interdisciplinary studies. We have made significant progress, but we still have a long way to go. In a university, the disciplinary nomination of the curriculum still remains the fundamental reality, and I still think we need to make major progress. I am not an objective observer, I have been a player in this realm for my entire academic career. I am contemptuous of the traditional academic disciplinary structure, I am fond of telling my students that I have plenty of discipline, but no discipline. SM (00:29:28): One of the things when you are talking about the curriculum is liberal arts. Seems that liberal arts really was strong in the (19)60s, particularly mid-60s and beyond, because it really was the epitome of what Mario Savio was saying at the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65, that the universities need to be about ideas. PVB (00:29:51): And we need- SM (00:29:52): Ideas and not about corporate control or preparing people for jobs like the IBM mentality. PVB (00:30:03): Mario was absolutely right. He was a wonderfully, thoughtful and eloquent person, and his view on the university I think was extraordinarily perceptive, and I absolutely agree with them. I think we need a much greater commitment to the liberal arts tradition. The idea of transforming the university into a practical job preparation institution is a profound mistake because the jobs that we are preparing them of young men and women for today will be obsolete in a generation. The most practical thing that we can do is to give them the most rigorous liberal arts education combined with the traditional skills of critical thinking, writing, public speaking, and the like. SM (00:30:57): Do you think that is certainly a positive that came out of the boomer generation and the professors and students of that era? SM (00:31:03): ...boomer generation and the professors and students of that era. I fear that liberal arts is really being threatened today. PVB (00:31:10): It is, and partly it is a lot of the boomer parents who have, I am sorry to say, very minimal vision about the fundamental value of a liberal arts tradition. They keep pushing their students, not their students, their sons and daughters into practical things. Learn about computers, learn about engineering, learn about accounting. And I can understand the parental need to do that, but it is short-sighted and mistaken. SM (00:31:47): Yeah. How often have you heard, in your time at UCLA, and I have heard it wherever I have worked is, "What are you going to do with a philosophy degree?" PVB (00:31:57): I hear it thousands of times. SM (00:31:59): Yeah. There is still people that just do not get it, the importance of... My golly, if you read Bertrand Russell, oh my god, there is things in there that you will remember the rest of your life. PVB (00:32:10): Absolutely. And it is something that is, in fact, perfectly practical, that if you unite what you are going to do day in and day out with a deeper philosophical vision, one, you will do your work better, and two, your life will be infinitely more meaningful. SM (00:32:31): Just a little commentary here on comparing the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s to the students of the (19)80s, (19)90s, and even the (20)10s today. I know it is very difficult, you cannot talk about... the boomer generation is 74 million and only a percentage went to college, so you cannot just be talking about college students here, but we are talking about young people overall. But you have been in the classroom and you have seen the students of all these eras. There is smart kids in every generation, so it is not about smarts. But I guess the areas that I am most interested in is activism, overall knowledge of what is going on in the world, students that challenge their professors more, that like to interact with professors in the classroom, and being up-to-date with the news. PVB (00:33:22): They are not, they are not. I have immense popularity with my students. I have done extraordinarily well. I have won every conceivable teaching award you can win, but I am very blunt when I tell my students that, in the aggregate I have a lot of really good students, who are extraordinarily critical and extremely knowledgeable, but in the aggregate, my students are not particularly knowledgeable. And even more insidiously, not particularly intellectually curious. They do not know what is going on in the world. They can tell you all about Lindsay Lohan and Lady Gaga and they cannot tell you what the hell is happening two days ago in Uganda, and that is not good for democracy. SM (00:34:07): I agree, I agree. A typical college scene in the (19)60s, and again, it does not always have to be technology changes, but at Binghamton University, I can remember people buying the newspaper, The New York Times, The Binghamton Press. They were- PVB (00:34:23): Nobody reads the newspaper. SM (00:34:24): ...reading the newspapers. They subscribe to Time and Newsweek. They were reading them. And I know now we have the computer and they can get access on the computer. The question is, are they going to CNN? Are they going to the news or are they going to see Lindsay Lohan? PVB (00:34:35): Their protestation's that they read the news on the internet. I believe they think they are reading the news on the internet, and I believe what is actually happening is that they are glancing at the headlines on the internet. That technology... and look, I use the computer every single day, I could not live without it, but it is not a substitute for in-depth reading. You cannot follow the news by itself on the internet, unless you are ready to devote a huge amount of time, and that is not what they are doing on the internet. They are doing Facebook, they are doing email, they are doing whatever it is that they are doing, but they are not reading the news in a thoroughly systematic way. There are exceptions, but not many. SM (00:35:31): You were- PVB (00:35:32): [inaudible] out of 100 of my students, if that, reads the newspaper in a sustained way. SM (00:35:39): I am going to go back here to the Free Speech Movement again, you were there for the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65. Would it ever have- PVB (00:35:47): Beginning to the end. SM (00:35:48): Would it ever have happened if they gave in and allowed the group to hand out the political literature? PVB (00:35:55): No. SM (00:35:55): Would the Free Speech Movement ever really have happened? PVB (00:35:57): No. They would have aborted it. And the University of California at Berkeley administration was colossally inept. Did you ever see the documentary Berkeley in the (19)60s? SM (00:36:12): Yes-yes. Yes, I have it. I own it. PVB (00:36:17): Yeah. I am no great fan of Professor John Searle, but he said in there the administration blew it again. They were colossally inept. Every time they could have aborted what happened, they did not. They just committed another atrocity. And so, they made it absolutely easy for us to do what we did. And I was involved in every single demonstration of the FSM. SM (00:36:50): Hmm. Clark Kerr is interesting, because when I went to graduate school, we had to read his book Uses of the University. PVB (00:36:56): I bought it. SM (00:36:57): Yeah. Oh, you did? PVB (00:36:58): I did. SM (00:36:59): Yeah, well I loved the book and when I interviewed Bettina Aptheker when she was on sabbatical in New York this winter, she just really did not like Clark Kerr, but then later on she somehow met him and she said she liked him. But Clark Kerr's interesting, because he is the man that talked about the knowledge factory and that higher ed was heading to the knowledge factory and more people had access to education than ever before. And my question is this, Clark Kerr said in the book The Uses of the University that higher education had become a knowledge factory where students were learning skills to prepare for the world of work. Students at that time had an issue with a factory mentality, like they did with IBM mentality, where they were asked to conform if they wanted a job. Your thoughts on issues like this, just that boomers forced and challenged the universities that were heading toward the research universities of today. I know there is a lot here, but he seems to be a very important figure in higher education and even though- PVB (00:38:11): It has been years since I talked to Bettina, I am much more critical about Clark Kerr. I find him the architect of an institutional setting that I find repressive and extraordinarily unfortunate. I do not want the knowledge factory. I want a university that really generates truly liberal education, that allows people the kind of critical thought that will allow them to find their own way, and not one that will have them adapt to the demands advanced capitalist society. I really think that Clark Kerr is the architect of everything that is wrong with higher education. SM (00:38:50): What is interesting about Clark Kerr is he got fired by Ronald Reagan during the time- PVB (00:38:54): I know it. SM (00:38:58): ...that ...Because Ronald Reagan wanted to fight the students. PVB (00:38:58): No, I know. And I remember when he got fired, I was still a student at Berkeley then, before I started teaching, and I remember... I will never forget Mario Savio's kind of cryptic comment when he was interviewed on television when he was asked to comment about the recent firing of Clark Kerr, he said kind of off-the-cuff, "Good riddance to bad rubbish." Now, that is harsh, but I understand it, and at the emotional level, I agree with it. SM (00:39:33): Obviously, you knew Mario and Bettina and- PVB (00:39:38): Not well. SM (00:39:39): Not well. And I know David Lance Goines, who I have interviewed, too, was part of that. And he never came back to the university he was so upset. PVB (00:39:46): No, I know it, and I have read his book. I have read his book on the FSM. Again, I have met him but do not know him well. I knew some of the other people much better. The kind of official... it is a shame, I do not know if you ever interviewed Michael Rossman. SM (00:40:05): No. PVB (00:40:05): He died. But Michael was kind of the official archivist. He died about two years ago of leukemia. SM (00:40:12): Right. PVB (00:40:13): He was the one I knew the best. SM (00:40:18): The one that was in the car was Weinberg? PVB (00:40:20): Jack Weinberg. SM (00:40:21): Yeah. I would love to interview him, but you were there on that plaza that day, were not you? PVB (00:40:27): I was. SM (00:40:30): Can you describe what that day was like? I mean- PVB (00:40:33): It was wonderful. It was exhilarating. We had, I believe, a collective sense of our student power. We had a sense that we were challenging authority and that, indeed, we could win. When we stopped that police car from taking Jack Weinberg to jail, we had a sense of our extraordinary power. Now, I would add something. A very large number of the people who were there, myself included, had been veterans of the Civil Rights Movement. We knew that we could do that. We had had plenty of experiences. Jack Weinberg was a good example. We had been in the South. We knew the enormity of the impact of collective power. And we were not at all intimidated by the university. I mean, my god, we had challenged a racist southern church. We were not afraid of university deans. But it was an extraordinary day. I was there the whole time, and it was 30 some hours that Jack Weinberg was in there. I was there virtually the entire time. I think the only time I was not there was when I went into the student union to use the restroom. SM (00:41:56): Yeah, because the wide angle pictures that you see of that scene are thousands of students. I mean, and then you had this car in the middle that is not even being hurt. It is not even being scratched. PVB (00:42:12): People took their shoes off. Let me tell you, the only reason- SM (00:42:12): Let me turn my tape here. Hold on. All right. We are ready. PVB (00:42:22): I am an effective speaker. I have been a public speaker for 40 years, the sole reason I did not mount the police car to speak, was that I was on probation for an earlier civil rights arrest and I was operating in violation of my own probation order. If I had been photographed on top of that police car, and if that had gotten back to my probation officer, and the judge would sentence me to three years on probation, there is no doubt that he would have rescinded my probation and issued a warrant for my arrest, thrown me into jail. SM (00:43:03): I know, but when I interviewed Bettina, she said that was the time that she had never spoken before a large group like that before, but she said it gave her a lot of confidence. And she was not up there very long, but it just gave her a lot of confidence, and look she has gone on to become a great professor, so- PVB (00:43:21): No, it is true. I finally did speak the day of the mass arrests on the steps of Sproul Hall when were mobilizing for the strike. I got up and I took the microphone and I said, "We need to deploy students in front of this building and that building." And, to my astonishment, I spoke charismatically and people, they basically obeyed my suggestion, and I realized, at that moment, that I had the power to move people through my oratorical ability. SM (00:43:56): Wow, that is powerful. I know that Dr. Cohen at NYU has written a book on Mario Savio. I bought it when I was there, the day I interviewed Bettina, and I want to interview him, too. He is very busy. PVB (00:44:10): He is worth interviewing. I have read the book. It is very good. SM (00:44:13): Well, he never responded and finally he said, "Steve, I apologize. I have been inundated," three months after I sent my note. He said, "In the fall, when school starts, you can come in September and interview me," so I am going to do that. Final question on this, again, I may have asked this before, but what are the lessons, again, of the Free Speech Movement in your view? And what are some of the visible results of this action that you see on campuses today? In other words, what I want to know, I know how important it was, our students may not know the history of the free speech movement and how important it is for their rights on campus, but do you see the visible results at UCLA today and in other schools? PVB (00:44:52): A little bit. As a kind of indirect consequence of the Free Speech Movement, we were, as I indicated a few moments ago, able to make some curricular changes. If it had not been for the Free Speech Movement, we would not have an African-American studies and I would not be teaching African-American studies. But when I gave my own speech against the tuition hike, back in November at a mass rally on the UCLA campus, I said that when Mario Savio spoke on December 2nd, 1964 he said that there comes a time when the machine becomes so odious that you cannot take part. And I said, with today's prices at the university, it has become so odious, you cannot take part. And so, what I am hoping is that, especially with the repeated budget cuts and the organization of the university, that enough students will begin seeing that this is no education at all. So I am hopeful that there will be an increased student movement. I have no idea what is going to happen, but I would hope that with all of these kinds of cutbacks in education you will have a response from the student body at UCLA, the University of California and a number of places across the country. SM (00:46:17): There are some people, and I cannot name them, but I have read that they think that it is actually a conspiracy to keep students busy today by the fact that they all have to work, tuitions are rising, they have to work, they have no time to be involved in anything else on a regular basis. They join- PVB (00:46:45): It is a major problem. SM (00:46:45): ...fraternities and sororities, so I do not get it. PVB (00:46:45): Yeah, it is a major problem. On the other hand, when my students moan and groan about that, I simply ask them and I say, "How much time do you waste on the computer? How much time do you waste on social networking sites?" I spent 30, 40, 50 hours a week as an undergraduate in the Civil Rights Movement. I also worked 15 to 20 hours a week, and in the last two years of my college career, I got mostly As. A lot of their complaints... I feel sorry for working class kids that really do have to do it, but for upper-middle class kids, who are getting parental subsidies, a lot of that is merely whining. SM (00:47:28): And there is data to prove that those students who are more involved in activities outside the classroom do better in school. They really do. PVB (00:47:40): The more I was involved in the Civil Rights Movement, the more hours I put in, the higher my grades got. SM (00:47:44): You are a living example of that. One of the things I was reading about, and you probably are very proud about it, in fact Paul mentioned in a little note to me, is that you are a rabble-rousing teacher. PVB (00:48:00): I put on a very lively show. SM (00:48:00): And what was it like being a teacher? Now, this is very important, and I have an example. What was it like being a teacher at Berkeley in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s and even going onto UCLA? And did you fear the university would purge you and other teachers for political activities beyond the classroom? PVB (00:48:19): Yes, I did, and they tried and I beat them back. SM (00:48:20): Hmm. PVB (00:48:25): I was first fired in... or attempted to be fired four years into my Berkeley career in 1972. It was a massive student movement. It became a matter of major Berkeley controversy, it became a matter of national controversy. I think it was 1972, the journalist Nicholas von Hoffman wrote a column about me. I beat him back, I beat him. And several other times when they... They have always used other pretexts, budget, change of direction. SM (00:49:05): Oh, yeah. PVB (00:49:06): Mind you, it has always been political and I have always beat them back. SM (00:49:12): Yeah, it is amazing the people that shut up are the ones that rise oftentimes. When I was at SUNY Binghamton in 1960... I think it was (19)68, a brand-new PhD came in from Berkeley, it was a sociology professor named Dr. Mahovsky, and I remember Mr. Lipschitz, one of the students in our class challenging him. There was going to be a protest against recruiters on campus, and he came into the classroom, the student, and he said, "Are you going to come with us?" And Dr. Mahovsky said, "No, I am teaching a class." And he said, "Well, jeez, did not you just graduate from Berkeley? You should be coming over. You are a professor. You should be coming over with us and sitting in the administration building. And we are going to get arrested, but..." And I will never forget this, he said, " I am no longer at Berkeley, I am no longer just a graduate student, I now am a professor, I have a wife, I have a child, I have to provide for them, I am not going to get involved in this." So I will never forget that. PVB (00:50:17): I have managed to get involved for 40 years and I am still around and in next March I will have been married for 40 years. In L.A. you get to be in the Guinness Book of Records for that. SM (00:50:27): Wow, that probably is. What do you think of Reagan's war on students, that law and order mentality? PVB (00:50:35): That is how he got to be governor. He ran against me and my fellow students and Berkeley in 1966. That is what catapulted him to Sacramento, and then that is what catapulted him, unfortunately, into The White House. Now, people who say if it were not for the Free Speech Movement he would not have gotten there, I am not apologizing for anything. We had to do the FSM. The fact that Reagan was able to be a demagogue and to do that is a sad reality, but I did not make it happen, so I have no regrets about being involved as an activist. If he had not done it, somebody else would have. SM (00:51:18): I think Ronald Reagan heard about Ed Meese at that time, because he was the assistant DA of- PVB (00:51:23): I remember Ed Meese. I used to watch him when I was a young faculty member. He was Ronald Reagan's kind of field general. It was Ed Meese who was directing the kind of ground operations on the Berkeley campus. It was Ed Meese who directed... he was involved in the activity of the People's Park. SM (00:51:47): Yes, in (19)69. Yes. PVB (00:51:49): And it was Meese who directed the helicopters that made the first bombing of an American campus. SM (00:51:56): I interviewed him. PVB (00:51:56): Of teargas. SM (00:51:57): I interviewed Mr. Meese. I had a chance to talk to him, it was mainly I wanted to talk to him about the years before he worked for President Reagan in The White House. PVB (00:52:10): He was the prosecutor of the Free Speech Movement defendants. SM (00:52:14): Mm-hmm. Were you aware of any universities firing professors or purging so-called radical students from their campuses or any campuses in the late (19)60s and (19)70s? PVB (00:52:23): They were doing it, they are still doing it. SM (00:52:23): Because I know that, my first job was at Ohio University and they supposedly purged a lot of the students from the east off of that campus. PVB (00:52:37): I mean, they do not do it with quite the drama, but you have these events. I mean, you have these academic freedom cases every year. At Colorado, they got rid of Ward Churchill. I am no great fan, I must say, of Ward Churchill. I have signed all the petitions, because I think it was a pretty egregious violation of his academic freedom. I am not a great fan of the scholarship, but that notwithstanding, clearly, he was a victim of political persecution. At Bard College, President Botstein has fired Joel Kovel. SM (00:53:16): Oh, yeah. I remember hearing about that. PVB (00:53:21): And I think that is troublesome. I do not know all the details of that case, so I mean this kind of thing goes on and on and, as I said, when I have been the victim of that, I fought back. I mean, I have been fortunate that the nature of my teaching is such that I am always able to generate a huge amount of support from my student population, including, I might add, conservative students. I make clear my own leftist point of view, but my conservative students can speak any time they want and I will listen to them. I will not agree with them, but they are always open to say whatever they want in my classes. SM (00:54:04): Well, access to higher education is a major development in higher education during the (19)60s and (19)70s. And so, the boomer generation, like the GI Bill and the World War II generation really increased the numbers on college campuses never before. With access, including all ethnic groups, what new issues arose in your view, what were they in your eyes? PVB (00:54:32): Well, [inaudible] students, I mean, they were obviously... I mean, I think this is a good thing, but I would like to make higher education more accessible to larger numbers of people. One of the good things until there was a backlash for things like Proposition 209 is that we had increasing numbers of people of color, and they were obviously interested in learning more about their own tradition. Increasing numbers, especially in a place like California, for example, you had an increasing number of students of Latino cultures, and so that was good, it was a valuable thing for the curriculum. On the other hand, you still had a lot of students much more narrowly focused on job markets and more technical skills that would equip them for entry level jobs, and I think that that was short-sighted, as I talked about a couple minutes ago. SM (00:55:32): Being a lawyer, how important was the Bakke decision? I know that was at UC Davis and that was in the late (19)70s. That seemed to be an historic case. PVB (00:55:44): Well, it is interesting. I mean, in retrospect, I mean, nobody really liked the Bakke decision when it came down, but in retrospect, we would kind of like to have it now, because at least it will allow the use of race. It allowed Allan Bakke to go to medical school, I think at Davis. SM (00:56:02): Mm-hmm, yes. PVB (00:56:04): But now, I mean, it is hard to get to anybody. It has been a long time since I read the Bakke decision, but as I remember, the court said you have to let Allan Bakke in, but you can still use race as a legitimate consideration in making admission determination. So if we could go back to the Bakke decision, we would ironically be better off. SM (00:56:29): A lot of people did not realize it, and it was not really brought up, but he was a Vietnam veteran, too. PVB (00:56:35): I know it. SM (00:56:36): And the other thing, too, is what we also saw that is interesting in college campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, is the many Vietnam veterans coming on campuses and the discrimination that they were facing. In fact, they were actually put into affirmative action plans back at that time. PVB (00:56:53): Yeah, I remember that. At Berkeley, we had a few. I did not have a lot of Vietnam vets at Berkeley. And even now at UCLA I get a couple of veterans. It is not a huge percentage. In California, I would think that a much larger number of the military veterans probably go to the California State University system. SM (00:57:20): Right. Would you say, and this is just my perception that another big issue from the (19)60s and (19)70s, as a result of student protests and certainly with what happened at Kent State is the issue of who can and cannot come on campus with respect to police. That was a big issue when I was at Ohio State University as a grad student. And we had legal aspects in higher education classes and these were some of the biggest discussions we ever had, is who can and cannot come on campus. PVB (00:57:55): It remains an issue. Kind of piggybacking on what I talked about earlier, they are very-very careful about bringing large scale police presences on campus these days, because it inflames students. They try to defuse incidents, but we have had them. I mean, even last November when we had the demonstration against the tuition increases, they brought in a huge contingent of California Highway Patrol. And then, it inflamed student population, so they... There is no doubt at a public university campus, I mean, they have the right to come to campus. The issue is not whether they have the legal right, but the propriety and the wisdom of bringing them on. SM (00:58:53): I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and I know David Horowitz has also said this in his books, that the troublemakers of the (19)60s and the (19)70s now run today's universities. And then, they comment they run the women's studies departments, Black studies, gay and lesbian studies, Native American studies, Chicano studies, environmental studies. Your response? PVB (00:59:17): I think that is moronic. There is a need for all of these studies. These are whole areas that were historically neglected. David Horowitz is his own... In both cases, you really have to look at the sources. Phyllis Schlafly is an old-time reactionary, and extraordinarily difficult to take her seriously. David Horowitz is another interesting guy. I do not want to psychoanalyze him, but the temptation to do so is almost irresistible, coming as he does as a red diaper baby, who is trying to, basically, exorcise the ghost of his left-wing past. But on the merits, he is wrong. On the substantive merits, he is absolutely wrong. When you look at things like African-American studies and Chicano studies and you look over the past 35 or 40 years, there is an impressive body of scholarship and teaching that stands extraordinarily well on its merits. Now, it is absolutely the case that in the ethnic studies and women's studies curriculum, they are going to point out the existence of racism and sexism, because they exist. And that people who spend their time in scholarly investigation looking at race are going to discover racism, and those people who spend their scholarly lives dealing with gender, are going to discover sexism as an institutional component of American life. Mr. Horowitz does not want to acknowledge that, but that is his intellectual deficiency. SM (01:01:17): See, I interviewed Michelle Easton from the Clare Boothe Luce Institute, a conservative female, and she kind of agrees with that, as well. And she says, in some of these courses, women's studies, that they are never going to teach about Phyllis Schlafly, they are never going to teach about Clare Boothe Luce, they are never going to talk about conservative women. I made a comment earlier, they are doing exactly the same things that they complained about when they were students back in the (19)60s or (19)70s or whatever, so- PVB (01:01:52): I do not think they are. I think it is perfectly appropriate to teach about Clare Booth Luce, she was an important journalist, she was a congresswoman. I think you want to talk- She was a congresswoman. I think you want to talk about people who made a significant contribution, that would by definition eliminate Phyllis Schlafly, she is not an important figure. SM (01:02:14): Some people will say she is, because she single-handedly defeated the ERA. PVB (01:02:19): Yeah, I know. But, in the scheme of American and [inaudible] important figure. These are intellectual judgements we have. SM (01:02:28): Right. The problems we have just, I got a lot of questions here and you are doing great, because you are one of the first, along with Dr. Chickering and one other person, really talking about higher ed, which is important, because it is such an important part of the lives of Boomers and in that period. The problems that we have in America today, go back to the (19)60s and (19)70s. I say this, because in 1994, if you remember when Newt Gingrich came into power, he made some commentaries about that period of the (19)60s and (19)70s as to the reasons why America's in the shape it is in and he was referring to negative shape. PVB (01:03:10): Of course. SM (01:03:10): George Will, oftentimes lights to in his commentaries, take jabs back to that period. Even today, and I do not even watch Fox News, but I hear that former Governor Huckabee is constantly making comments, as is Glenn Beck and Hannity about general commentaries about that particular era in history and how it is negatively affected our society and still does today. PVB (01:03:37): There is absolutely no doubt that the (19)60s was a cultural and political and emotional divide. George Will is a thoughtful, intelligent guy. I disagree with virtually everything he says, although I like his writings on baseball. Very political. Glenn Beck is a comedian and is not worth talking about, because he is not a serious intellectual. Gingrich is an interesting, problematic person in his own right. He is not stupid. Beck is just an entertainer and he is real. We do make intellectual judgements, but let me talk about the deeper issue. The (19)60s was a profound divide. It changed our consciousness of America. There were a lot of people who wanted America to be what it was before then a Baskin for white middle class people with a deeply institutionalized sexism and racism. That was the America that they liked. That was the America that gave them the privileges that they enjoyed. And that was the America that we took on. That was the America that they enjoyed with Dwight Eisenhower. But the Eisenhower administration favored the wealthy. It was contemptuous of racial discord and it was contemptuous of the rights of women. And the (19)60s challenged all of that and I believe properly so. SM (01:05:12): Excellent response. When you look at the boomer generation, it is anywhere between 74 and 78 million people. In fact, I just read an article that boomers can no longer say they are the largest generation in American history. There are now more millennials than there ever were boomers. PVB (01:05:32): Yes. That is not surprising. SM (01:05:35): And because boomers, the most would be 78 million, we are already over 80 million for the millennials. But what I am getting at here is when you look at this boomer generation and you think of the boomers that you knew in many different capacities, and when I say boomers, I do not like to, some people have had some difficulty with the timeframes here, because I know from all the people I have interviewed that those that were born between 1940 and 1946, a lot of them feel they are boomers in the way they think and the way they act. You are dividing me from somebody else who is only two years younger than me. Come on. So I know what I am asking really is what do you think were some of the good qualities and bad qualities about the generation? Some people will not even answer this question, because I think it is too general. PVB (01:06:31): I mean, a lot of the people, I mean, I am right before the technical beginning of the boomers and a lot of the people came right after really were fundamentally part of (19)60s activist generation and for all of the flaws, and there were many, and for all of the kind of shrillness and the irrationality, it still made a major moral difference. It was people like that who were the foot soldiers in the most making the major moral transformation of our society, which was the civil rights movement. It was people of that generation, people of my age, people born right before (19)46 and right after, who were the foot soldiers who took to the street and who supplied the bodies in the most important moral crusade of the 20th century, the American Civil Rights Movement. So for that minority of that generation, without being chronologically precise, that minority of that age group performed a service for which America ought to be grateful for centuries to come. My view. SM (01:07:47): Could you list some of the contributions in your eyes at the boomer generations, its members? In society as a whole, both good and bad? PVB (01:07:55): Yeah, it is that minority that had a vision of morality and social justice that carried forth. It is that vision that has allowed people of color to live in this country with assemblance of humanity and dignity and which among other things, shortly after the highlight of that, that helped to end a grotesque war in Southeast Asia. The wrong side of the boomers, and again, without being chronologically rigid, is that many of those people fell all too easily into Reaganism, which may seems to be the worst example with the Reagan administration. It institutionalized selfishness, [inaudible], if I can point a word, where it said that, what is in it for me and to hell with everybody else. So the other side of that generation seemed to me to institutionalize a vision that all we care about is our own advancement, usually financial advancement and the hell with the welfare of the rest of the American population, really the hell with the rest of the human population. So it had the best and the worst. SM (01:09:27): That is kind of the Christopher- PVB (01:09:27): The latter is more than the former. SM (01:09:32): That is kind of that Christopher Lash talks about in the culture of narcissism. Yeah. I see there is a Bruin Alumni Association that is not an affiliate one that has a web page- PVB (01:09:43): No, it has nothing to do with the Alumni Association. SM (01:09:45): It talks about dangerous professors on campus. PVB (01:09:45): Yes. SM (01:09:51): And you are on that list. PVB (01:09:52): I am only on number 21. When that came out, I went to my students and I said that I regret profoundly that I did so poorly in the rankings. I had several months to see if I could elevate. SM (01:10:06): That is kind of the what a lot of people said when they were on Nixon's enemies list. PVB (01:10:10): Yes. SM (01:10:13): Some people said, "Wow, geez, I am hurt, because I am not on it." PVB (01:10:16): Right. The day that came out, I was teaching a very large class. I got a standing ovation. SM (01:10:24): Do you compare this at all, even in a small way, to the witch hunts by [inaudible] in the late (19)40s and (19)50s and looking at communists, McCarthyism in the (19)50s, attacks on the new left liberals, the Hollywood 10. Do you see even in the small way, a continuation- PVB (01:10:50): Yes, but in a very small way. Strictly minor league SD. SM (01:10:56): Right. PVB (01:10:57): Major league stuff. Strictly Bush League. SM (01:11:01): The new right really came to power in kind of the mid to late (19)70s in reaction to the new left and liberal groups active in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the rise of Reagan was part of that, because the concepts of law and order, he did not want a welfare state. The kind of mentality where you lift yourself up by your own bootstraps and do not concentrate on the government. PVB (01:11:27): ...yourself up by your bootstraps and also predisposes that you have boots. SM (01:11:31): Right. Good point. What are your thoughts on that rise of the right? PVB (01:11:38): I see that as a consequence of the cult. I see that as a consequence of Reaganism. For all of Ronald Reagan's crack pot economics, the more pernicious dimension of the Reagan era was the cultural consequence of selfishness, of narcissism, of this kind of contemptuous disregard of the marginalized population. It was Ronald Reagan, for example, who opened up the mental institution in California. It was Ronald Reagan who basically maligned for my view of any society is that the, well, the moral quality of any society is the way in which you treat the most disadvantaged. And the way America treats its most disadvantaged, it remains appalling to me. SM (01:12:31): Well, I know religious leaders became a very important part of this, whether it be Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell or Dobson. But when you see a Ralph Reed who has a PhD in history, who is so smart, I mean there were a lot of boomers who were part of this. PVB (01:12:53): I am sure. And they could always find people who can use the gospel. I mean, look, I am not religious. I mean, I come from a secular Jewish background, so I have no particular vision about the Christians whom I admire are people like Dr. King. SM (01:13:16): Right. PVB (01:13:17): For whom theology works for the betterment of the human condition and for people like Robertson and Buck [inaudible] and Reed, frankly, it strikes me that they are using theology as a cover for retrograde [inaudible] SM (01:13:37): Two religious leaders that seen, even though Billy Graham seems to be across a lot of currents and so does Father Sheen, the Catholic Church, they seem to be a little different, would not you say? PVB (01:13:51): Well, you mean Fulton Sheen? SM (01:13:53): Fulton Sheen, yes. PVB (01:13:54): Yeah. That goes back to the (19)50s. SM (01:13:57): Right. That is still part of boomers. When they were young, they saw these and- PVB (01:14:00): No, I used to watch them on television. I do not remember very much. He used to give these [inaudible] on television as a kid. I do not remember them specifically. Billy Graham has been around forever. I am no great fan of Billy Graham. I do not find him as reactionary as some of the other ones. But on the other hand, his palling around with all president will strike me is a bit of hollow. SM (01:14:29): Except Jimmy Carter for some reason. PVB (01:14:31): Yeah, no, I mean, but they share the born again vision. So there is not... SM (01:14:39): From your own life experiences and your knowledge of history through reading, describe what the following time periods mean to you. Since all these periods were at times when boomers have been alive and helped shape them and their multiple views on life. I have asked this to the last 50 some people that I have interviewed, and it has been very interesting what they say. This is just, when you look at this timeframe, what does this timeframe mean to you as a person, and what do you think it means to the generation that was growing up at the time and the period, 1946 to 1960? PVB (01:15:18): I found the, well that is basically 1946 to 1960, is the (19)50s, and I found that repressive. I have very vivid recollection. I remember the witch hunts. I was talking to my students yesterday. I teach at the summer course and I am using George Clooney's goodnight and good luck about Edward [inaudible], whom nobody had ever heard of until I mentioned. And I remember the Army McCarthy hearings, I remember the malevolent gaze of Joe McCarthy and his detestable sidekick, Roy Cohen. I remember the less than pleasant days of the Eisenhower administration. So I have very negative feelings about the (19)50s. I actually wrote an article many, many years ago about the (19)50s called Not So Happy Days, the Politics and Culture of the (19)50s. So I have very negative views, because it seemed to me that it was not happy if you were African American or poor or a woman, a variety of other people on the periphery of society. SM (01:16:28): What did you think of the TV of the (19)50s? Because when I think of the (19)50s, I think of Howdy Doody. I think of the Musketeers, Mickey Mouse Club. I think of Walt Disney, Ed Sullivan Show, a lot of comedy sitcoms, half hour shows, a lot of- PVB (01:16:48): I remember Westerns. I grew up in a very politically conscious and very politically critical family. So I was imbued with that. The only thing that I liked on television in the (19)50s was sports, baseball, football. SM (01:17:04): How about the period 1961 to 1970? PVB (01:17:08): I love the (19)50s and I am critical of its excesses, and I am critical of those people who said that they were involved in the (19)60s when they were young, and now they have matured and become mature. I think that is nonsensical. I am an unapologetic defender of (19)60s activism is pretty heard so far. Now, I think the (19)60s were one of the moral highlights of a relatively recent American history, especially the civil rights struggle, and especially the proceed to end what I think to be a monstrous war in Vietnam. SM (01:17:50): The period 1971 to 1980. PVB (01:17:53): Well, there was still a lot of activism in the early part of the (19)70s, and I supported that. I knew many of the people as the civil rights movement, for example, transformed from the kind of nonviolent civil rights movement to Black power. I understand that. And I was actually very supportive of the Black Power Movement. I retained a lot of associates and friendships with people who were involved in Black power, and I think that was very important. And in the early part of the decade, the anti-war movement accelerated. The war of Vietnam did not end until Gerald Ford withdrew American forces in 1975. So the first part of that was still part of the (19)60s. The latter part coincided with a much more passive era. Even though Jimmy Carter was president, it was moving toward the kind of passivity and narcissism of the Reagan era. My vision of the latter part of the Sotheby's becomes much more critical. SM (01:18:59): Yeah. Let me go right into that, 1981 to 1990. PVB (01:19:03): Not a particularly pleasant time. I mean, that was the era of Reagan, and that was the time where Reagan used his sometimes a very persuasive to communication power to malign and disparage. Before that was when he was utterly indifferent, for example, to people with aids. Not a pleasant time in our national history. And I am confident that few historians who validate my vision. SM (01:19:37): How about 1991 to 2000? PVB (01:19:39): And I think it continued. I am not, I mean on some levels things got a little better with Bill Clinton, but I am no Clinton fan. SM (01:19:52): Is there anything that stands out in that (19)90s that... PVB (01:19:55): No. I think on some levels, domestically things got a little better, but Clinton really continued the same irrational Cold War policies that actually were initiated under Eisenhower. I did not like his foreign policy adventures. I did not actually, this has to be apart from a lot of my colleagues on the left. I did not like his personal immorality. SM (01:20:22): And the one thing, he seemed to be very close to African-Americans, though. PVB (01:20:30): That is the popular view. I dissent when people said that he was the first Black president. His actual policies seems to me worked against the interest of the African-American population. I think he was particularly good with his rhetoric, but there is an enormous gap between his rhetoric and the day-to-day policies. SM (01:20:53): Where is this gap? PVB (01:20:55): No, I am not a Bill Clinton fan. I do not like what he stands for. I think that basically the Clinton influence in American life is a negative one. And I am in the minority on the left on this. SM (01:21:10): Where was that gap you mentioned? You can give an example of the gap? PVB (01:21:13): Yeah. He cut welfare payments, which I would not do, but I am unambiguously in favor of Democratic socialism still. SM (01:21:25): How about if- PVB (01:21:25): I was in Washington DC, I had about a 10-minute conversation with Ralph Nader, whom I like enormously. He would be worth interviewing, if you can get to him. SM (01:21:39): He is a tough man. He is never around. PVB (01:21:39): I know. SM (01:21:41): The last one of course is 2001 to 2010. PVB (01:21:45): Well, we will see. We will see. I mean, the Bush arm was grotesque. I mean, the worst president, arguably one of the worst presidents in our national history. SM (01:22:02): Let me change my tape here. Hold on. Very good. PVB (01:22:09): An absolutely horrible president, a horrible administration. A disaster will take generations to recover from his grotesque adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. SM (01:22:23): What about Barack Obama? Just your first- PVB (01:22:25): See, I am increasingly disappointed with Obama. SM (01:22:32): So the judgment is out on him. It is too early, so to speak. PVB (01:22:37): It is still too early, but I am not happy with the trajectory. I would like him to be much more vigorous. A lot of people in the left, feel that way. I am hardly unusual. SM (01:22:47): Would you say that if you talk about this 10 years between 2001, 2010, it is all about 911? It is terrorism? That is the- PVB (01:22:55): Yeah, I mean, there is no doubt. I mean, 911 was horrible. No humane human being can say anything other than that. It was horrible. I mean, Al-Qaeda and their operatives are mass murderers. Nobody could defend that, indefensible. And if somebody were to capture and kill Bin Laden, I would be perfectly ecstatic. But look at what has happened. There was this kind of hysteria about terrorism that can have catastrophic consequences for civil liberties. I mean, in the wake of 911, we passed this grotesque Patriot Act. Horrifying, in my view, as a civil libertarian. SM (01:23:41): Did you experience the generation gap in your family between your parents and yourself or any of your brothers and sisters? Was there any- PVB (01:23:52): Not really. SM (01:23:52): Did you witness the generation gap amongst any of your peers and their family? PVB (01:23:56): Not especially. I am the oldest of five. There is a 19-year difference between me and my youngest sister. We are all politically progressive, although I have always been the most active, and maybe that is the first child syndrome. I have always been the most verbal. SM (01:24:15): Did you see that there was the generation gap between the World War II generation and the boomers? PVB (01:24:21): Yeah, I respect the World War II generation, but I do not romanticize them. I think [inaudible] broke laws rhetoric about the greatest generation is overblown. SM (01:24:35): Some people have also said that we concentrate too much on the generation gap and the battles between parents and children. But we do not talk about the generation gap within the generation, which is between those who went to Vietnam or served in the military during this timeframe and those who evaded the draft. PVB (01:24:57): Yeah, there was that. And I regard myself as a Vietnam vet. I fought the war. I would not have served in Vietnam. I think it was a grotesque score. I got a high draft number. So I was lucky I would not have fought that war. It was monstrous. Whenever I go to the Vietnam wall in Washington, and I certainly empathize with the people who lost relatives, and it is very touching and very moving to see that. But it is a horrible war. I would not demonize people who went and I would not spit on them or call them baby killer. But we should not have fought that war. We should not have fought in Iraq and should pull out of Afghanistan. SM (01:25:43): James Fallows- PVB (01:25:44): Very much, I mean, my views, they are minority views. Not North Vietnam, but certainly with Afghanistan. But large numbers of Americans feel the same way that I do. SM (01:25:57): Yeah. James Fallows has written years back, the writer for Atlantic Monthly, that he was in Harvard at the time, that he feels real guilty and has been honest about evading the draft and not protesting the draft, because a lot of those students evaded the draft, but put no effort into protesting against the war. And so there is some lot of issues there. So do you see any different- PVB (01:26:24): I have no such issues. I would not have fought in that warrant. I protested it. SM (01:26:28): Were your thoughts on those who went to Canada? PVB (01:26:31): I understand it. I would not have done that. I am an American. I belong here. I was born here. I have lived here. I am critical of my country. Therefore, I want to work assiduously to try to change it. SM (01:26:48): Yeah. I think Dr. King used to always say that if you need to not worry about being arrested when you protest, because that is part of the game, and those people, that is the nonviolent protest. PVB (01:27:02): Right. SM (01:27:02): And he always stressed that. And so those who did alternative service and did not go to Canada and some went to jail, like David Harris. PVB (01:27:12): Exactly. SM (01:27:13): And served time. Those people seemed to be admired more. Those who did alternative service and went to jail and then those who evaded the draft or went to Canada. PVB (01:27:24): Or who, I mean, I am in a different category. I fought the war in Vietnam from the time of the Gulf of [inaudible] in summer of 1954 until the final withdrawal in 1975. I was always outspoken against the war, 11 years. SM (01:27:46): Well then you are part of that then. In your opinion, what is the major event or happening that shaped the entire generation of 74 million? Is there one event that you think shaped it more than any other? PVB (01:28:00): There is too many. I do not think historically you can name one. I mean, obviously young people today in college, they all remember 911. But look, I remember, everybody remembers where they were when Kennedy was assassinated. But that could be overblown. It is too simplistic. It is really a complex of events that give rise of the ones individual events can help you locate a conscious, but it is individual psychology and human history are more complex. SM (01:28:40): We are is a follow-up. Maybe you will have the same answer. When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end? PVB (01:28:47): The (19)60s began, I do a course in this and I date it on December 1st 1955 when Rosa Parks got arrested, or you could date it on May 17th 1954 when the Supreme Court handed down Brown v Board of Education. And it ended largely when President Ford withdrew the troops in Vietnam. So somewhere in the mid-(19)50s to the mid-(19)70s. SM (01:29:18): Wow. April 30th 1975. PVB (01:29:20): Yep. So around then. SM (01:29:22): Do you think this- PVB (01:29:25): Basically 20 years. SM (01:29:26): This may be a repeat of the earlier question, but was there a watershed moment or you just cannot say? PVB (01:29:31): I cannot really say. There were too many events and I was involved in too many of them. SM (01:29:38): Do you think a quality that this generation has is a quality that they do not trust? PVB (01:29:46): Hard to know. I mean, one of the things that I am sad to say it that I see among my own students is a reluctance to take risks. And I am bothered by that. Even at the interpersonal level. I see too many young people, some of who are kind of reluctant to do anything that would be risky. They are afraid of the consequences. And I sometimes looked and said, my god's going to be afraid to do it at 21. What the hell are you going to be like at 40? SM (01:30:22): Right. Do you feel that the issue of trust is an issue within the boomer generation that has a lack of trust in leaders? Because so many lied to the boomers as they were growing up, and they were given lies in terms of why we got involved in Vietnam. We had the Watergate- PVB (01:30:42): They say that. I hear that a lot. I wonder however, whether there is so much of that is just a rhetorical cover. I am not sure how deep that really goes. I mean, every generation gets lied to. Political leaders always lied, endemic of the operations. SM (01:31:10): Would in response... I do a follow-up to this question. That is, when you think of a lack of trust, you really think of liberty and the definition of liberty. That was a political science major and well and history major. And one of the first thing things you learn in political science is that trust and lack of trust is a very positive quality in a democracy, because that means you do not trust your government, keeps them on their toes. And the dissent is alive and well in a democracy. Do you agree with that? PVB (01:31:38): No, that is good. I mean, one ought to be skeptical. But one ought to be skeptical when people say they are doing it for your own good. And you should say, show me that it is for my own good. Explain that further. Now I have, as a teacher, my job is to try to tell my students or urge them to be a lot more skeptical of authority wherever they encounter it. At home, at school, at both at the micro and macro level politically. Democracy requires skepticism. SM (01:32:19): Where were you when you heard President Kennedy was assassinated? Do you remember the exact moment? PVB (01:32:25): Yeah, I was an undergraduate. I was just kind of walking and somebody said, they said like many other people, I did not believe it, until actually until everybody started buzzing about it. SM (01:32:39): Were you at the Berkeley campus? PVB (01:32:40): No, I was in San Diego. I went as an undergraduate at San Diego State. SM (01:32:46): So you heard of it just walking across campus? PVB (01:32:48): I was on campus. It was between classes. SM (01:32:51): And did you go to- PVB (01:32:55): I remember sitting down with a friend, we were kind of joking about something, having nothing to do with that. And some professor- PVB (01:33:03): ...about something having nothing to do with that. And some professor came and started ... gave us a really dirty look. And I could not figure out why the hell was he this off with us, but I had not heard anything. We were outside. We had no, people were not wired up. And [inaudible] 63. SM (01:33:18): Did you? PVB (01:33:23): I think he was pissed off that we were joking, but we did not know anything. I would not joke about something like that. SM (01:33:29): Did your class continue or was it canceled? PVB (01:33:33): I think it was canceled. SM (01:33:35): And were you like many that just watched TV all weekend or? PVB (01:33:40): Yeah, I watched it. I watched it all the way through. I watched it incessantly. I watched Oswald being assassinated by Jack Ruby. SM (01:33:46): Yep. And you probably remember the announcers. PVB (01:33:51): Yep. SM (01:33:52): Tom Petit. PVB (01:33:54): Yep. SM (01:33:54): And Ike Pappas. PVB (01:33:56): Yep. SM (01:33:58): They have both passed on now. But those are the ones, NBC and CBS. PVB (01:34:03): It was incredible. SM (01:34:04): Yeah. Another important question here. Do you mind if we go over a couple minutes here? Because we are going over? Sure. Because I got, I have got the civil rights questions here. But this is a question I have asked everyone, all 170 people, a question that our students came up with when we took a trip to Washington DC in the mid (19)90s to see Senator Edmund Muskie. We had a leadership on the road program through Gaylord Nelson from Wisconsin, and we set up about nine meetings with senators, and this was our last one. And he was not very well. He had just gotten out of the hospital. And the question the students came up with, because they knew that he was the vice president of candidate in 1968 when all that terrible thing happened there and all those tragedies, assassinations that year. So they wanted to know, number one, were we close to a, they wanted to ask him, were we close to a second civil war in 1968 due to all the divisions? And secondly, do you feel that because of all the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war and against the war, those who supported the troops or against the troops, and they brought in all the burnings of the cities in the (19)60s, and Watts and the burnings after Dr. King died and the assassinations. Do you think that this generation, because of all these terrible things, is going to go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? And so they wanted a response from him, I will tell you his response after I hear yours. PVB (01:35:44): No, we were never close to a civil war. The Civil War was really a major division about states’ rights and slavery. We were in a period of great turmoil and tension, but nothing qualitatively similar civil war. But many of the tensions remain unresolved. I mean, I still think that many of the tensions that existed forty-something years ago remain. We still have racism, we still have sexism. I am extremely close to the African-American community, and I know definitively that they still see racism very pervasively in American society, notwithstanding that Barack Obama is black. And a lot of these tensions are going to remain unresolved. And a lot of people, especially the generation before me, are going to die with a lot of unresolved issues. And I am not sure that they will be resolved in my own lifetime. But it is not a civil war, and it never was, was not even close. SM (01:36:54): Do you think that there is a problem with healing within any segment of the boomer generation or as a whole? PVB (01:37:08): Yeah, but it is not... I mean, time heals. Time itself works. I mean, it has an effect though, on the rougher edges, but I am not sure. I do not want a cheap healing and I do not want closure, and I do not want healing unless there is resolution and resolution in certain directions. I do not want healing without... I do not want to heal unless the underlying issues are resolved. I do not want to heal if there is still racism or there is still sexism or homophobia. I do not want to play kumbaya if we still have these problems. I would rather have tension and discord. SM (01:37:57): That is an excellent response because Senator Muskie did not even respond about 1968. He mentioned nothing in his reply. It was simple and direct. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War because we have not healed over the issue of race." And then he went on to describe the North and the South and all the divisions, and that is all he said. And he did not even mention... and he had just seen the Civil War series on TV in the hospital, the Ken Burns series, and he said, "Ask yourself this, young people. Almost 430, 000 people, men, died in that war. Almost an entire generation was wiped out in the south." So ask yourself, the issue of race. He said that... he actually had tears in his eyes when he was talking to us. He had said nothing about the (19)60s. So that is how he responded. What has the wall done, in your opinion? Have you been there? You already said you have. What was the first response to the black granite wall about a mile in? What came to mind when you first saw it [inaudible] PVB (01:39:03): Oh, I have seen it a dozen times. It is tremendously moving. What makes it such a remarkable piece of public art is that it allows people of both sides, the protagonists who fought in Vietnam and people who fought against the entire war like me, to stand in the same space and to share their... well, not to share, but to experience their own private emotion. I mean, the people who lost people, you can see them rub the names. But people like me stand there and I see the 58,000 and odd names of people, and I think what a tragic, tragic waste. SM (01:39:46): See, I think maybe I should have rephrased the question. I have said this to other people when I talked about healing, is really... has the healing truly happened between those who went to war in Vietnam and those who were the anti-war movement? PVB (01:40:00): Probably not. But I think the edges are off as we have gotten older. But I really think that the issue, I agree with Senator Muskie, the issue of race is a deeper divide. When Dr. Dubois in 1903 wrote that race is the defining issue of the 20th century, it remains so. SM (01:40:24): I know Jan Scruggs, the founder of the Wall, wrote that book To Heal a Nation, which you probably read because he wanted to heal the veterans. And I know it has done a great job for the veterans and their families, which was... PVB (01:40:36): It is very important for them. SM (01:40:37): But they still have a lot of healing to do. You just see when you go to the wall. PVB (01:40:39): There is no doubt. SM (01:40:41): But he wanted to heal the nation. So I do not know if that that is going to be possible by... PVB (01:40:46): It is not going to be possible. I think the edge is off, but it is not going to heal. Life does not work that way. And I do not know that healing is in the way in which that is expresses ability [inaudible] desirable. SM (01:41:03): You are a scholar and you have obviously not only written great books, but you have read great books. What are the books that most influenced you as a scholar, as a thinker? People that have written books that you may have read in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, or even through today that are truly inspirational? PVB (01:41:29): I have read so much, and I mean, I think about that, but I have... at this juncture of my life, I have read so much. I mean, there are books that are profoundly influential. I just got done teaching Camus' The Plague, which is to me tremendously influential, it is a novel of resistance. And if there is any word that I would summarize what I have tried to do with my, not just my adult life, but with my life in general, it is resistance. It is to resist what is wrong, to resist illegitimate authority. And Camus' novel is a novel of resistance, and I have taken that to heart. I read that as a young undergraduate and I have taught it for 35 years. And I keep changing my reading list, I have been doing that for 42 years. That is the really the only major exception. It has been a constant. SM (01:42:32): Well, that is good. Because you- PVB (01:42:33): I never tire of it. SM (01:42:35): Hey, you are changing it around. You are not doing the same thing every year. That is good. PVB (01:42:38): No, I change it all the time, but not that, I weave that in somewhere kind of once a year and I never tire of it. And the students never tire of it. SM (01:42:47): Two books that I really liked when I was in grad school, and again, I had interviewed Daniel Bell, so he is 92 years old, I was lucky to get an hour with him. But Bell, I mentioned these two books, The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. PVB (01:43:03): I used to kind of informally debate Roszak. SM (01:43:07): Yeah well that was, well, I tried to get him to be interviewed, but he was not well, he is not well now, so. PVB (01:43:13): He has got to be in his seventies. SM (01:43:15): Yeah, he is retired and I do not know if he is fighting cancer. I do not know what it is, but I just know he is not well, and he said he did not have the energy to talk for a half hour on the phone. And the other one was Charles Reich's The Greening of America. I do not know if you know it. PVB (01:43:31): Oh, that was all part of the whole counter culture. SM (01:43:33): Right. PVB (01:43:34): Yeah, I remember all that. That was big at a particular moment. SM (01:43:39): And Erickson wrote some great books too. And Kenneth Keniston and yeah. PVB (01:43:44): Exactly. What is Charlie Reich doing these days, is he still around? SM (01:43:48): My understanding is he is like disappeared. He left, I guess he left Yale a long time ago. Lives in the Bay Area. I guess he is, hibernating. I do not know. He is just like doing nothing. I guess he is retired and I do not know what he is doing. PVB (01:44:03): Yeah, he would be in his seventies as well. SM (01:44:05): Yeah. Now this is the area that I think you will have the greatest enjoyment in responding, because actually what is interesting, you do not know anything about me, but African American history and issues dealing with African Americans is the center core of my life as well. You are a senior lecturer of African-American studies at UCLA, and you understand the history and the culture of the civil rights and civil liberties. Could you comment on these African-American leaders that were important during the lives of Boomers? And I got a list here, you may have others, but these can just be brief comments on people. My advisor was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, who was my graduate school advisor at Ohio State. And you can go on the web, see Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, he has a big practice in just outside Washington DC. But he was a great inspiration and he brought us into prisons and got us involved in issues dealing with African Americans. It is just like, and I have been reading ever since, and Dr. King is my hero, and in many respects. First person to respond, just a few comments on Malcolm X. PVB (01:45:18): I am an enormous admirer of Malcolm X, especially near the end of his life, that remarkable transformation when he moved from a more narrow based Islamic identity with the nation of Islam into a much more, much broader vision of humankind. I think his assassination in 1965 was a horrible tragedy. I liked his vision of universal human brotherhood and black militancy, which he was able to fuse tremendously. SM (01:45:53): But do you believe that when he has had that slogan by any means necessary, did he mean violence? PVB (01:45:59): If necessary, I have no problem, I am not a pacifist, so I think that appropriately conceived the violent response can be legitimate. Nelson Mandela realized that during the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa, when with some reluctance, he decided that they had no choice except to move to the armed struggle. SM (01:46:20): I know Malcolm had a big debate with Bayard Rustin on that. PVB (01:46:25): I am an admirer of Bayard Rustin, but I am not a pacifist. Bayard Rustin was. He was an official, the fellowship of reconciliation. SM (01:46:34): And he is from Westchester, right where I live. PVB (01:46:37): Yeah. Now he is a very important figure. My students have never heard of him. SM (01:46:42): Dr. King and Mrs. King. I want to include both of them. PVB (01:46:45): Yeah. They were tremendous. I mean, arguably Martin Luther King is one of the great human beings of the millennium. I mean, there is no doubt. I mean, and certainly America's greatest orator, and Coretta another extraordinary human being, no doubt. I mean, unbelievably powerful. I was there when he spoke at the march on Washington and I- SM (01:47:13): Wow, you were there? PVB (01:47:15): So I was there. It was when we were in Washington for the spring quarter. My wife and I walked there and I showed exactly where I sat when he gave the speech. SM (01:47:26): Wow. PVB (01:47:27): I am a tremendous admirer of him. I have [inaudible], his letter from the Birmingham Mail was one of the great militant civil rights document ever. His pilgrimage, that nonviolence is important, and I disagree with it. I prefer Malcolm's view on the necessity of violence, although I prefer to avoid it. SM (01:47:54): How about John Lewis? PVB (01:47:56): One of the great men, I mean, and he is still at it as a congressman in Georgia, wonderfully eloquent. He just gave a speech the other day when he looked in Congress in the house, when he said he was speaking to the Republicans, do not you people have a heart? There are people out there who need their unemployment insurance. Wonderful man. SM (01:48:20): He spoke at Kent State, and I was there recently, and I interviewed him for my book. I brought him to Westchester when we did a tribute to Bayard Rustin as well. Julian Bond? PVB (01:48:31): I have known Julian. I was a SNCC worker when he was the office manager. Wonderful, wonderful man. Unbelievably eloquent as a speaker. I had the good, the privilege when he was our guest at UCLA. I interviewed and I introduced him at a big public speech. I have known Julian for 40-some years. Tremendous. I admire verbal eloquence, and he has it. And his writings are tremendous. He has done tremendous writings on all kinds of issues that go far beyond Rice alone. SM (01:49:11): He is also the voice at Kent State when people do the tour now. PVB (01:49:15): Oh, he is the greatest. SM (01:49:16): At Kent State site. James Farmer? PVB (01:49:19): James Farmer, the former head of CORE. I heard him a dozen times. He faded into historical obscurity. But should not, he was an unbelievably eloquent man. He was in a Louisiana jail. He was the only major civil rights speaker during the march on Washington. SM (01:49:37): Yes. We had him on the campus. A lot of these people I have met myself. A. Philip Randolph? PVB (01:49:46): One of the iconic figures. I have written at length about A. Philip Randolph, the major figure that merged the civil rights and the labor movements. SM (01:49:59): And I think more students need to know about him, because when I mention his name, people say who? PVB (01:50:05): I know. SM (01:50:05): Where have they been? PVB (01:50:09): I have a class, I have a history of social protest movement, and I had 330 and last four. And when I mention Randolph, I think two or three heard of him. That is typical. SM (01:50:23): How about Roy Wilkins? PVB (01:50:25): A very important figure, too moderate from my perspective, too wedded to the more legalistic tradition of the NAACP, but certainly very important. But during the height of the Civil Rights Movement, the NAACP was among the more conservative forces in the Civil rights movement. And Wilkins classically in that tradition, but certainly he devoted his whole life to the movement, and one has to give him huge credit for that. SM (01:50:56): Whitney Young? PVB (01:50:58): Even more so. He was the head of the Urban League, but he and Wilkins were on the conservative wing of the Civil Rights Movement. I mean, Whitney Young was a trained social worker and kind of therefore less given to the kind of confrontation on the street. I worked with SNCC, and SNCC was the youngest group, and I shared that to you. Still do. But I like free confrontation. SM (01:51:30): How about Ralph Bunch? PVB (01:51:33): Bunch is an iconic figure. I mean, I work in the Ralph Bunch Center for African American Studies. An extraordinary diplomat. One of the early PhD scholars, political scientists, and I know all about Ralph Bunch, he is an extraordinarily admirable figure. SM (01:51:54): Rabbi Hesburgh? PVB (01:51:57): You mean Theodore Hesburgh? SM (01:51:58): Theodore, yeah, Theodore Hesburgh. PVB (01:52:00): He was the president of Notre Dame. SM (01:52:02): No-no-no. I mean the Rabbi. I thought it was Hertz. I thought it was Rabbi Hertzel or the Rabbi that- PVB (01:52:14): Hertzel. No, Hertzel is the Zionist leader. SM (01:52:16): I got the wrong name, then. PVB (01:52:18): Rabbi [inaudible]. SM (01:52:21): I thought it was Rabbi Heschel. I thought it was Rabbi. PVB (01:52:24): Oh, Rabbi. Oh yeah. SM (01:52:25): He was with Dr. King on many- PVB (01:52:27): Absolutely very important voice for Jewish voice of social activism and justice. Very, very important. Abraham Heschel. SM (01:52:37): Yes. That is my mistake. I apologize. Fannie Lou Hamer? PVB (01:52:42): One of the great figures, her leadership in the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party, and an orator and a singer, an iconic, iconic woman. I have been teaching her and about her forever. SM (01:53:01): How about Ella Baker? PVB (01:53:03): Another one. She was one of the, it was she who broke, she did not break from the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, but she was one of the kind of originators of SNCC, very important figure. And again, representing the historical contributions of women in the Civil rights Movement. She needs to be much more well-known than she presently is. SM (01:53:28): The people that really were to the side of Dr. King at all times. You had Jesse Jackson. You had Ralph Abernathy. PVB (01:53:38): Absolutely. SM (01:53:39): And you had Andrew Young. Those three seemed to always be with him. PVB (01:53:44): They were always there. I mean, I met Ralph Abernathy. Dr. King sent Ralph Abernathy to our home during the Lebanon crisis. SM (01:53:55): Of course, I got Paul Robeson here, and I think you have already mentioned about- PVB (01:53:59): And I thought mean he really is the iconic figure long before the modern Civil Rights Movement. I only regret that contemporary African-American leaders do not pay homage to Robeson, John Lewis being a conspicuous exception. SM (01:54:17): When you think of the athletes of the period that boomers have been alive, like you think of Muhammad Ali. PVB (01:54:26): Ali is a wonderful guy and very political. SM (01:54:30): You think of Jackie Robinson, who certainly opened up the color line. PVB (01:54:35): No doubt. I mean, Jackie Robinson was a hero to everybody. He was certainly, in terms of his athletic prowess and his real commitment to civil rights, he was no Paul Robeson, of course. SM (01:54:49): Kurt Flood is someone who never is talked about, but I think he is very important. PVB (01:54:54): Absolutely. Broke the reserve clause. SM (01:54:56): Yeah, and you are the first person I even mentioned him. We seem to forget him, and I think people need to know more about him, about his life. PVB (01:55:06): I think. SM (01:55:08): Yeah, and certainly the Tommy Smith and John Carlos. PVB (01:55:14): That was the moral highlight of the modern Olympic movement, that moment in Mexico City. A wonderful moment. It drove a lot of Americans crazy. I thought it was terrific. SM (01:55:27): How about Dr. Harry Edwards, who was part of that? PVB (01:55:34): Well, I, Harry, I knew very well when we taught at Berkeley together. I think Harry played it incredibly. SM (01:55:40): He has also disappeared. You call the college and they do not have any forwarding address to him. PVB (01:55:46): I know, he is around though. SM (01:55:49): Do you know his website or? PVB (01:55:51): No, I do not, but I can get that for you. He was our speaker at the Bunch Center in May. Now, I always go to, we have an annual Thurgood Marshall lecture. The only reason I did not go was that I was teaching in Washington DC in the University of California, Washington Center. SM (01:56:09): Okay. PVB (01:56:10): Or otherwise I would have gotten together with Harry. [inaudible] SM (01:56:12): Good. If you have his email address, I would appreciate it. I brought him to Westchester quite a few years back, and then I have lost touch with him. PVB (01:56:23): When I go in tomorrow, I will try to get it. Email me tomorrow and I will try to forward that to you. SM (01:56:28): Super. How about the Black Panthers? And I say this specifically because you cannot just talk about them because of the unique personalities. I am going to mention the personalities and then your comments. Stokely Carmichael, Eldridge [inaudible] We will go with Stokely. PVB (01:56:45): He was terrific. I never knew him. I saw him occasionally, once or twice in the SNCC office. Very important, taken with himself to be sure, but did a marvelous job. And he was the bridge between the Civil Rights Movement and the Black Power Movement. And it was he who came up with, I think, was not it, he who came up with black power as a slogan? SM (01:57:11): I think so, yes. Yeah, Eldridge Cleaver. PVB (01:57:16): A tragic figure. I remember when he wrote Soul on Ice, and I actually did have a couple of conversations with Cleaver. I knew a number of the Panthers in Oakland when I taught at Berkeley. Cleaver became, I mean, a caricature of himself at the end. SM (01:57:36): I know he became a strong conservative at the end. PVB (01:57:41): He became a conservative. He became a Mormon. He became whatever he became. SM (01:57:45): He was living on the street too, I think. PVB (01:57:47): And he was viewed as an embarrassment in the black community. SM (01:57:53): Kathleen Cleaver. PVB (01:57:55): I talked with Kathleen a couple of years ago. She is teaching law at Emory and occasionally at Yale. She continues to do good work. SM (01:58:04): And of course, H. Rap Brown is in jail the rest of his life. PVB (01:58:07): He is in prison in Georgia. Another kind of tragic figure. I never knew him. SM (01:58:14): Fred Hampton. PVB (01:58:15): Well, I mean, that is one of the great martyrs of the infamous J. Edgar Hoover. SM (01:58:23): And then Huey Newton and Bobby Seal. PVB (01:58:26): Well, they were very important. My parents knew Huey. I never did, they are very important. Also, Bobby is still around. But he, last I heard, he was in Philly. SM (01:58:40): Oh, no. He is not in Philly anymore. He lives in California. PVB (01:58:42): Oh, he is back in California. Huey was a tragic figure, but very important at a particular moment in time. SM (01:58:51): And Angela Davis, who was not a Black Panther. PVB (01:58:54): No, but she, I think she is retired from Santa Cruz, but her writings are terrific. I gave a speech from the spiral steps at Berkeley when Ronald Reagan fired her from UCLA. and I was involved, and I signed a million petitions to free Angela, and I have spoken to her. I do not know her well, she is really [inaudible] born (19)43 or (19)44. SM (01:59:20): George Jackson was symbolic of all the prisoners. PVB (01:59:23): Oh, he was killed in San Quentin. And I mean, I followed that case. SM (01:59:30): How about Robert Moses, who was so important in SNCC? PVB (01:59:34): Tremendously important. Because you are almost saint like in what he did. He is still around teaching mathematics. SM (01:59:39): Yep. Thurgood Marshall? PVB (01:59:43): A judicial giant. Another Thurgood Marshall on the court. SM (01:59:52): One thing I always thought, when I thought of Malcolm, and I think of the Black Panthers, people are very critical of the direction because they challenged Dr. King and Bayard Rustin on nonviolent protest. But Dr. King challenged Thurgood Marshall because even though he liked Thurgood and was very proud of what he did in getting the Brown V Board of Education decision through the Supreme Court, that was a challenge because Dr. King used to say, I want it now. I do not, we are not going to wait any longer, and we are not going to have the gradualist approach of a Thurgood Marshall. So maybe this- PVB (02:00:30): No, but Thurgood Marshall also was not a gradualist. There was a wonderful love that... Marshall was a very, very fine lawyer, and that was the legal wing of the movement. And he was tremendously courageous in developing all the legals that culminated in the Brown decision. SM (02:00:52): James Meredith? PVB (02:00:54): Another interesting figure. I mean, it was very important for him to do all of that at the University of Mississippi. I do not know what finally happened to him. He must be in his (19)70s now. SM (02:01:05): He became a conservative too. PVB (02:01:07): Yeah. Well. SM (02:01:08): Nothing wrong with that, but just surprising. PVB (02:01:11): But he did mean it was important for him to challenge. I mean they precipitated those riots in Oxford. SM (02:01:18): Then of course, Medgar Evers? PVB (02:01:23): Oh, I think I had the same feeling when Evers was shot in the back that I had to the Kennedy assassination. That gives you a sense of my reaction to Medgar Evers. SM (02:01:38): Have you been to Arlington? PVB (02:01:38): Not, I was there for three months. I did not get to Arlington. SM (02:01:45): Medgar Edwards is buried there. PVB (02:01:47): Yeah, I know. Because he was a veteran. SM (02:01:49): Yeah, he is over in an area by himself near a tree as you would walk over to the Iwo Jima statue. PVB (02:01:55): Yeah. An extraordinary human being. SM (02:01:57): Emmett Till, that was a tragedy. PVB (02:01:59): Well, I mean, I remember that as a child. I mean, I talk about that and about the state against [inaudible], and that was an iconic moment. That was one of the catalysts in the Civil Rights Movement. That was one of the points of origin for the (19)60s. SM (02:02:17): And then of course, Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman, which. PVB (02:02:19): Yeah, of course. And I was driving that way a couple of, the three, four weeks around, not on the same road, but the same general area for [inaudible]. And it dawned on me that what happened to them could have happened to me. SM (02:02:35): And just quick responses to these terms. You do not even, Freedom Summer, which was (19)64. There is a book on that. PVB (02:02:42): Yeah, no, I remember it. I was in the Civil Rights Movement, but not specifically a part of Mississippi Freedom Summer. Very-very important in the movement. SM (02:02:50): Of course, the March on Washington (19)63. But a lot of people forget that there was another one in 1957 that Dr. King was at, which was smaller. PVB (02:02:58): No, I know. I mean, tremendously important in the modern civil rights movement. I mean, anybody who was at Washington in August of(19) 63, that will be one of the highlights of their lives. It certainly is for me. SM (02:03:13): Orangeburg? PVB (02:03:15): Orangeburg, South Carolina? SM (02:03:18): That was where the killings were. PVB (02:03:20): Oh, yeah. No, I know about it, but vaguely, I do not know enough that at this juncture to comment on it. SM (02:03:27): Jack Bass wrote an article on it, a book on it. Selma and Montgomery. PVB (02:03:32): Those were tremendously important. I mean, Selma, it was Jim Clark, the [inaudible] racist Sheriff. And these were all very vital parts of the movement. And there were examples of racist violence against the nonviolent protestors of the movement. SM (02:03:55): And of course, Little Rock Nine. PVB (02:03:57): Oh, I mean that, it was the little rock crisis that got [inaudible]. PVB (02:04:02): It was the Little Rock crisis that got Levittown out of the news because it was just a couple, it was just a month after the Levittown crisis. But that was another one of the precipitating events. And there you had the legal defiance of Wabufarbus. SM (02:04:20): Then you had the church bombing that killed the little girls, and I know that that in that inspired Angela Davis. PVB (02:04:26): Horrifying. SM (02:04:29): And then of course, I have here the trip to Mecca, which was Malcolm's important trip. What do you think would have happened if he had lived? Because of course you cannot, just so you can say the same thing about John Kennedy. Maybe we would not have gone into Vietnam, but guess- PVB (02:04:44): We can. No, I think Malcolm would have grown into a leader with the eloquent stature of Kin. SM (02:04:55): Your thoughts on the Black Panthers again, do you think they were a violent group? PVB (02:05:01): Oh, they were undercurrents of violence. I think they were in the aggregate, sincerely committed to Black liberation. You read their ten point platform, their statement of principles perfectly acceptable. I still would like to see them implemented. I have essentially positive thoughts about the Panthers. I do not want emphasize them, but I think in basically positively about the past. SM (02:05:33): There were other groups that went violent. We all know about SDS and the Weathermen. We all know that a lot of people thought the demise of SDS was because of the Weathermen, the violence. PVB (02:05:49): SDS finally spun out like a tornado. The Weathermen were lunatic. They were romantic revolutionaries in a society that was never a revolutionary society. SM (02:05:58): Well, even in the American Indian movement in 1969 when they took over Alcatraz. PVB (02:06:03): Alcatraz, I remember that as well. SM (02:06:05): Then that went to violence at Wounded Knee by 1973. That kind movement kind of was set back for a while. PVB (02:06:14): No, I mean, I am in favor of carefully constructed defense of violence. The violence for the sake of violence strikes me as falsely stupidness strategically put into effect. SM (02:06:25): Yeah. I think the Young Bloods, the Chicano Movement kind of foul the Black Panthers too in some of their events. Describe in your own words the connection of the arts to politics and society. PVB (02:06:37): Well, that is what I write about. I have become one of the, it is fair to say that I have become one of the major scholars on political art. I really believe that art plays an integral role in the overall struggle for social justice. And that is what I have been, and I have a lot of parts of my personality and my life, but I have been documenting political arts for 40 years. SM (02:07:14): Could you give some examples of that? In the (19)60s, the art and the connection to social issues. PVB (02:07:23): There were literally hundreds. I mean, there were Vietnam, there were artists against the war in Vietnam. People, even iconic figures like Ben Shahn and Jack Levin and George Segal, they all did artworks against the war. They used their considerable skill to say no, and this is ongoing, and this is what I do every day. And in recent years, I have been documenting African American artists who have been upfront in the struggle against racism. SM (02:07:57): Can you describe about photography and the importance of that? PVB (02:08:01): The importance of photographers in the United States, for example, have played a key role in highlighting social injustice from the time of Jacob Rees and Lewis Hein all the way through the thirties. But the Farm Security Administration like, Dorothea Lange, Walker Evans, Ben Shaw himself was a photographer. And especially Gordon Barks, the first African American to do that. So they all use their camera to say, look, America, this is what is really going on. And they continue to be the eye of hunt. SM (02:08:41): Would you say the Marian Anderson experience in Washington with Eleanor Roosevelt was a major happening in the area of civil rights in America? PVB (02:08:52): Without doubt, without doubt. I have talked about the 1939 concert for as long as I can remember. And when I was in Washington with a great deal of internal soul-searching, I finally walked into the DAR Museum. It took a lot of internal fortitude for me to finally go into that building. SM (02:09:17): Yeah, that took a lot of courage on the part of Mrs. Roosevelt, too. PVB (02:09:21): Tremendous. SM (02:09:21): She quit the organization. PVB (02:09:23): No, I know all about those events. SM (02:09:27): Well, since you are talking about The Yards, and we mentioned 1950s TV. I was born after World War II, but the thing that amazes me as a young boy, I saw Amos and Andy and was on TV and was on all the time, and it was funny. But now when you reflect upon it, that was about the only African Americans that were on TV in the (19)50s, except for Nat. King Cole who had a show in the mid-(19)50s for a short time. PVB (02:09:57): The Amos and Andy was the classic example of African American characters. I mentioned it to my students regularly. I mean, I have childhood memories of it. SM (02:10:09): And do you remember that period when Nat King Cole was on for a short time and then it was canceled and it was a great show? And then in the early (19)60s, what is amazing is, and I remember this clearly. There were four shows with African Americans, and I remember reading an article in a magazine saying, they are going to take over the television. And this is early (19)60s. Diane Carroll was in a TV show was a nurse, Flip Wilson had his show, and then Bill Cosby was in I Spy, and there was one other African American that was in another TV show, and the commentary was, they were going to take over television. PVB (02:10:50): Sure. Just like they are going to marry your sister. SM (02:10:52): Yeah. Are there any movies that you feel were the best movies for the Boomer generation today? On CNBC, they got what they consider the 50 top movies for the Boomer generation. I thought that was interesting. I was looking at, you can even go to it. PVB (02:11:11): I would have to look at it. There is so many. SM (02:11:13): When you think of the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s and (19)80s, are there any that stand out to you that really, if you saw it, you knew this was the era? PVB (02:11:30): Oh God, I would have to go back. Dealt with so many films. I do film courses. I woud really have to look at it. There is some really powerful works. I mean, I am about to show, I do not remember when it came out but I am about to show the Boomberg kind of anything by Costa Gavras was tremendous. I am about to show Missing. About students about Chile. And then certainly right in that period, because you have the American inspired overthrow of the Allende government in (19)73. There is so many. There is just a remarkable number of powerful films. But of course, most films are just entertainment. SM (02:12:14): Yeah. Well, I tell you, when I saw these films today, I can still see them knowing that that is when I was young. Like the Graduate and- PVB (02:12:22): Oh, I know. Everybody has saw that. SM (02:12:23): Easy Writer and Zabriskie Point. PVB (02:12:27): I remember that too. SM (02:12:28): Bob Carroll, Ted and Alice, which I think was a corny film. PVB (02:12:32): Yeah. Zabriskie Point was with Antonioni, I think. SM (02:12:36): Yeah, I know. Shaft was really a movie that. PVB (02:12:40): That was Gordon Parks. SM (02:12:41): Yeah, that was a very, the Cat, the movie Fritz the Cat, which was a controversial movie in the early (19)70s. PVB (02:12:47): I remember, but it was rated X. SM (02:12:50): And the Marlon Brando, The Last Tango in Paris. That was during the sexual freedom of sexuality kind of thing. And so there are many more. All right, let us see. I am getting down here. I am down to the last little section here, if you do not mind. These are just, you are still there. PVB (02:13:13): Yeah. SM (02:13:14): These are just quick responses. You do not have to go into any length on some of the personalities beyond the African-American personalities. Just quick responses to these names or terms. Tom Hayden. PVB (02:13:25): Oh, I have known Tom, not well. Another very important figure. He has been at it his whole life, both as an agitator and then later as a legislator. SM (02:13:36): Jane Fonda. PVB (02:13:38): Yeah. She did good work. Mean she broke up with Tom, but she was out there. A good example of a celebrity who is also political. SM (02:13:51): Attica. PVB (02:13:53): Well, that was extraordinarily important because it got America to understand what was going on in America's prisons. SM (02:14:01): And then what is really sad here today is a brand-new book out. You have probably seen it about Jim Crow in America Today. All you have to do is look at our prison system. PVB (02:14:10): That is exactly, because that is what it is. SM (02:14:12): Yep. San Quentin. I say that because that is where Angela Davis and George Jackson were. PVB (02:14:19): Yeah, no, I know it. I mean, I have been on demonstration assembly at that- SM (02:14:25): Alcatraz, which is the Indian takeover. PVB (02:14:27): Exactly. Another remnant of America's ridiculous prison history. SM (02:14:33): Robert Kennedy and John Kennedy. PVB (02:14:36): Well, they were martyrs of the (19)60s. I mean, I am not a particular fan of either, but they were martyred. SM (02:14:47): LBJ and Hubert Humphrey. PVB (02:14:49): Tragic figures. I mean, Johnson was very good domestically, but a failed president because of his growth test score in Vietnam. And Humphrey was just a wacky tragic figure. I did not vote in 1978 and I refused to vote for him, and I have no regret, no apology. SM (02:15:08): Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. PVB (02:15:11): Well, they were both wonderful anti-war figures. I voted for McCarthy in the primary and McGovern in the General Election. SM (02:15:21): Richard Nixon and Spiro Wagner. PVB (02:15:24): Monstrous figures in American political life. Nixon horrible and Agnew, a caricature of himself. And I used the word advisedly. A fascist. SM (02:15:41): Yeah. Well, he made some pretty hob nobs and whatever called else. PVB (02:15:43): Negative makeup, whatever the hell it was. SM (02:15:44): Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger. PVB (02:15:48): Well, McNamara is a tragic figure. I mean, he later recanted. You see that the documentary about his work has been sad, but he still was one of the architects. Kissinger strikes me as a war criminal. SM (02:16:04): Ronald Reagan and George Bush the first. PVB (02:16:10): Both pernicious influences. Reagan even more so, especially because people liked him because of his genial personality. But I have to add that he is not universally loved. People say, oh, Ronald Reagan. That is not the case when you talk to people in the African-American community. SM (02:16:31): Or people in the gay and lesbian community. PVB (02:16:33): Absolutely. Absolutely. SM (02:16:35): In fact, I have interviewed some people that actually, one cried on the phone. PVB (02:16:40): Absolutely. Especially with his contemptuous indifference to the AIDS crisis. SM (02:16:46): One thing about George Bush the first, is the fact that he is the one that said the Vietnam syndrome is over. I think he will be remembered more for that than no more taxes. What did you think? PVB (02:16:58): He probably will. I mean, he will come out better because of the malevolence and stupidity of his son. SM (02:17:05): Yeah. How about Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter? PVB (02:17:08): Both mediocre presidents. I mean, Ford was well-meaning, so was Carter. Carter's actually wound up being a much better ex-president. SM (02:17:20): How about Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower? Harry Truman was the first president for Boomers. So- PVB (02:17:26): Yeah, it is true. I mean, in retrospect, they are both good. I mean, Eisenhower, in retrospect is a flaming liberal. And his last comment about the Military Industrial Right Flex is still very significant. By today's standards, bright Eisenhower would be a moderate Democrat. SM (02:17:47): What is interesting, if I was a fly on the wall, I would have liked to have been there before John Kennedy and Eisenhower got into that car on an Inauguration Day because it is my understanding that a lot of things that President Kennedy was asking was about Vietnam. And if Eisenhower had just made a mention, I think you need to get out, boy, would life have been different? PVB (02:18:08): Could have changed the course of our history. SM (02:18:10): Yeah. Again, Bill Clinton and George Bush II. PVB (02:18:14): Well, I have already told about. SM (02:18:15): And President Obama too. PVB (02:18:18): And I am not a fan of Clinton for reasons, but I have already- SM (02:18:21): How about the women leaders, which is the ones that stand out? Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug. So they are different personalities, but- PVB (02:18:31): No, they are very different personalities. I am a great fan of Bella. I think her history goes deeper because beyond being a feminist leader, she was one of the courageous lawyers who defended people who were called before the House on American Activities Committee. So Bella goes back a long time. But Betty Friedan and the other one is Steinem. Which one? SM (02:18:56): Gloria Steinem. PVB (02:18:57): Oh, Gloria Steinem. They are very-very important. I mean, they help the catalyze, the women's movement, and we are all better off because of feminism. SM (02:19:05): How about Anita Bryant? PVB (02:19:08): Better to be forgotten. As I have forgotten footnote at a moment in time. SM (02:19:14): George Wallace. PVB (02:19:17): George Wallace was just another demagogue and horrifying race. I saw him standing in the doorway to find a federal order. SM (02:19:28): Dr. Benjamin Spock. PVB (02:19:30): Good man. I do not know about his pediatric work, but as a peace leader, wonderful man. SM (02:19:38): Daniel and Philip Berrigan? PVB (02:19:41): Very good. They represented, in my view, the best of the Catholic tradition. SM (02:19:46): Since we are talking about the Catholic Church, I had not mentioned this before, but Father Hesburgh was a real leader in that area. PVB (02:19:52): Absolutely. SM (02:19:53): Yeah. And he is the real deal. What? They cannot get another president like him at Notre Dame. He is like, oh, Mount Rushmore type person. Dr. Timothy Leary. PVB (02:20:05): Oh, strange guy. I used to have conversations with him in Berkeley. I am not big on drugs. That is where my friend Paul Krasner and I part company a little bit. I am very skeptical of the drug culture. SM (02:20:20): Well, so am I. And people cannot believe I went through SUNY Binghamton, which where everybody smoked pot and everything. PVB (02:20:25): Yeah. SM (02:20:27): I refused. I am never going to say I did not inhale because people were smoking in everywhere, But I never even took drugs. Ever. PVB (02:20:37): I have smoked pot a couple of occasion. I did not like it, particularly. SM (02:20:42): Your thoughts on the beats. Some people think the beats were very important in this anti-establishment mentality. PVB (02:20:48): They were the precursors to a lot of the activism of the (19)60s. As a literary movement, they are very important. People like Ginsberg and Ferlinghetti and others. I had a couple of conversations in Berkeley, with Allen Ginsberg same with Ferlinghetti and San Francisco. Very important. Ferlinghetti is still around. SM (02:21:11): Yeah, I know. He has that bookstore in San Francisco. And he like Ginsburg and Cassidy and Kirouac, Ferlinghetti, Waldman, Snyder, and Leroy Jones. PVB (02:21:21): And he is still around? He is- SM (02:21:23): Yeah, he is Amiri Baraka. Yeah. But- PVB (02:21:26): I like him. I have talked to him. I have been on the same program with him. He [inaudible]. He can be a pain in the ass, but he is made very important contribution. SM (02:21:37): Well, he is not available for interviews. I know that. Just your thoughts on the whole concept of the Cold War. PVB (02:21:43): That was so [inaudible] That molded our whole childhood. I mean, I was a child of duck and cover, except I refused to duck and cover, and I was sent to the principal. SM (02:21:56): How about the Korean War? What role did that play in, if any? PVB (02:22:00): It was there. I was too young to remember it actively. I remember when it ended. I only have fleeting memories of it. I remember it, but not as vividly as perhaps I should have. SM (02:22:16): How about the young Americans for Freedom, which was the conservative group that- PVB (02:22:20): No-no-no. I always knew the offers. I thought they were ridiculous. SM (02:22:24): They started at William Buckley's home, and he is my next person. William Buckley and Barry Goldwater. PVB (02:22:30): Goldwater. Buckley is obviously intelligent and a decent representative of the conservative tradition. So I mean, worthy of intellectual debate, unlike an Ann Coulter. Goldwater, in retrospect also would find himself in the left wing of the Republican Party. SM (02:22:54): I find it ironic that he is the man along with Hugh Scott that went to tell Nixon to resign. PVB (02:23:02): I know it. SM (02:23:04): What an irony that is. And then the whole concept of communes. PVB (02:23:12): Well, I remember that. I mean, that was part of the counterculture. I mean, I certainly have no objection to people doing that. It is not compatible with my personality. I must go individualistic. I could never live in a commune. SM (02:23:26): How about the Woodward and Bernstein changing? PVB (02:23:29): They did good journalistic work, no doubt. I mean, they helped expose Watergate. SM (02:23:35): And Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers. PVB (02:23:38): Very important at a moment that galvanized American knowledge of the underlying realities of Vietnam. So Goldberg, I am glad he did what he did, and I am glad that the Supreme Court allowed that to be published. SM (02:23:54): Tet- PVB (02:23:56): Who? SM (02:23:57): Tet And Vietnam. PVB (02:24:01): That was the comic guide that occurred in 1968. Turning point. SM (02:24:06): Yeah. That was the Gulf of Tonkin guide that ended the war and totally. PVB (02:24:10): And that was the turning point. And we ought to have realized that. And we ought to have gotten out, but we did not. SM (02:24:16): How about Hugh Hefner? PVB (02:24:18): Oh, Hefner. I mean, he hangs around LA in his pajamas and takes Viagra. He probably was important in breaking down some of the sexual repression. But what can I say? And he, he has done good work in the advance of the First Amendment. So that is a good thing. Playboy's a ridiculous magazine. And the Playboy clubs are horribly sexist. SM (02:24:49): Watergate. PVB (02:24:51): Oh, very important. Because it showed the pervasive criminality of Richard Nixon and his cronies. SM (02:25:00): And John Dean. PVB (02:25:02): John Dean has turned out to be quite a good guy. I mean, incredibly perceptive commentator. And he had the courage to come forward before the Irving Committee. SM (02:25:14): LSD. PVB (02:25:17): Overrated. I think it destroyed a lot of lives. If LSD can be used in a very controlled therapeutic way, fine. But I think that Leary and his colleagues unleashed hidden ways that had detrimental effects for thousands of people. SM (02:25:40): All right. The last question I have is, he, is the question of legacy. When the best history books are written, normally that is 50 years after an event, and I am going to paraphrase it. Say a hundred years from now and when the last Boomer has passed on. For people that have any memory of living at this time or have shared from people that are older about this time, what do you think the books are going to say about this generation that was born after World War II and some of the events that took place? PVB (02:26:16): I think that they are going to say that those members of that generation who reflected the activism of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, made significant contributions to America. If indeed we still have a world that has not been blown up or has not been so environmentally degraded that we still have a planet. SM (02:26:42): The Boomers right now, the oldest is heading towards 64 years of age, and oh, the youngest is heading towards 48. PVB (02:26:50): I know it. SM (02:26:50): And obviously, most people have said those people that were in the first 10 years are a lot different than those in the last. PVB (02:26:57): They are. SM (02:26:57): Second 10 years, but they are really approaching senior citizen status and I know that a lot of Boomers do not like that term, senior citizen. And so in a lot of buildings, they are getting rid of it. And I know AARP is considering not saying senior, because a lot of the Boomers do not like it. Your thoughts, we are talking about Boomers now that have about 20 to 25 more years of life if they have been taking care of themselves. What do you think they will do in old age? PVB (02:27:27): I do not know. I mean it is unique to the individual thing. I mean, I have no idea. There is so much over this genetic roulette. I think about that a lot at sixty-seven. I have no idea how long I am going to live. I run every day and I eat well, but I have no idea because my grandparents were all murdered in Auschwitz. So I do not know. Well, I know what I want to do. I want to keep working. SM (02:27:53): I know when we had Tim Penny on our campus, the former congressman from Minnesota, we had him at Westchester University when he rewrote a book called Common Sense in the (19)90s. I asked him to be interviewed, and he has gotten too big now. He did not want to be interviewed. But when he came to our campus, he said that the Boomers, which was his generation, have made a major mistake they had not saved. He said the average, when he was on the campus tonight, the average Boomer had about between five and $10,000 in savings in the bank. PVB (02:28:33): Yeah, that is going to be a problem. I read or I saw today on the Today Show that a very large number of them are going to outlive the resources. That is a major problem. SM (02:28:41): Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. PVB (02:28:44): My generation, I do not know that I can generalize. And I probably can. I know that a lot of people whom I know are slightly older than the Boomers have been much more fiscally moved. SM (02:29:00): He said the reason why he left Congress was to try to make more money, because he had a lot of kids. He could not make it on 125 or whatever they made their foot, which is a pretty good salary back then. PVB (02:29:12): If I had ever made 125, I would have done just fine. SM (02:29:15): But he said, your comment on this, I will never forget it, and I wanted him to respond to this, but he said, the Boomers are going to be broken down into three areas. There is going to be one third that are going to be very well off, very rich, and they will be able to do anything they want to travel, no matter what happens. Then there is going to be one third that are going to live in poverty, total poverty. They will have nothing. And then there will be one third in the middle, that will be having a very hard time because they will just be getting by. They will be able to survive, but they will be just beginning by, so he said basically two thirds of this, 74 million. PVB (02:30:00): Really marginal. SM (02:30:01): Oh, yeah. And of course, what has happened to a lot of Boomers is the economy has destroyed many of their, no, I mean, it is beyond their control. PVB (02:30:13): No, I know it. And there is nothing they can do about it. It is not their fault. SM (02:30:17): It is almost as if now that Boomers have to continue to work, just like students in college have to continue to work. It is the same kind of thing. And some Boomers may be working until the day they die. PVB (02:30:28): I know it. I am the last generation to get through the fine pension. SM (02:30:35): Is there any question that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? PVB (02:30:40): No-no. I think we have covered a lot, but if you have any more, just give me a call. I am around. SM (02:30:45): Very good. Well, that is it. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Paul Von Blum Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Von Blum, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; African Americans—Study and teaching; University of California, Los Angeles; Von Blum, Paul--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He received his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.164a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.164b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 150:50 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dc0dd18c9a89052a98355aa9ad68881c.jpg 6779d801a6e8ebbf2bee2ca0d8bc10ce https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2998043cb4fe900989948fb001628c4e.mp3 97b1e05976469d337209b18d61605fa0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Richardson Date of Interview 2010-06-10 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 118:41 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Peter Richardson is a scholar, author, editor and lecturer. He currently teaches and coordinates the American Studies and California Studies programs at San Francisco State Univerity. Dr. Richardson has authored several books and was a recipient of the National Entertainment Journalism Award for Online Criticism in 2013. Dr. Richardson received his Ph.D. in English from the University of California, Berkeley."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4483,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Peter Richardson is a scholar, author, editor and lecturer. He currently teaches and coordinates the American Studies and California Studies programs at San Francisco State Univerity. Dr. Richardson has authored several books and was a recipient of the National Entertainment Journalism Award for Online Criticism in 2013. Dr. Richardson received his Ph.D. in English from the University of California, Berkeley.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Summer of love; Black Panthers; The Beach Boys; California in the 1960s; Baby boom generation;\\nVietnam Memorial; Berkeley University; Bay Area; Los Angeles."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Summer of love; Black Panthers; The Beach Boys; California in the 1960s; Baby boom generation; Vietnam Memorial; Berkeley University; Bay Area; Los Angeles.</span> Subject LCSH College teachers; Authors, American--20th century San Francisco State University; Richardson, Peter--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Peter Richardson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Richardson, Peter ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; Authors, American--20th century San Francisco State University; Richardson, Peter--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Peter Richardson is a scholar, author, editor and lecturer. He currently teaches and coordinates the American Studies and California Studies programs at San Francisco State Univerity. Dr. Richardson has authored several books and was a recipient of the National Entertainment Journalism Award for Online Criticism in 2013. Dr. Richardson received his Ph.D. in English from the University of California, Berkeley Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.143 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 118:41 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e098b1651e8a2d73a2031a352f7806c2.jpg 3b827fb28af26a03e3a3005d4894f762 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0ee9c7989b9f953f6a3497517ae8cf52.mp3 2f4821487265ee1d5255f8a7f677b938 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Ralph Young Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:26:32 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords 1960s; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boomers; Activism; Vietnam; Society; Civil Rights Movement; New York City; Attitudes; Marriage; Sex; Changes in Society. Biographical Text Dr. Ralph Young is a history professor at Temple University where his expertise centers on dissent and protest movements in America, social history, and recent U.S. history. On-campus he runs a weekly teach-in series on historical content of contemporary controversial issues. He is the recipient of a Fulbright fellowship to teach Dissent in America at the University of Rome. He led seminars on Dissent and Protest Movements at Charles University, Prague, and Tubingen University, Germany. Most recently he was a "Scholar In Residence" at the Chautauqua Institution and the winner of six major teaching awards at Temple. He is the author of Dissent in America: The Voices That Shaped The Nation, and Make Art Not War: Political Protest Posters of the 20th Century. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Ralph Young