71 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0f2f717588a27b8de477567116398046.mp3 e70149249db6fe61300777d462564aab https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/479dab3c16426a44282d18dd17d3af4f.mp3 ccbc935f875e9dcb33bd2613988ee3fd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Isenburg, Florence Parsons Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wood, Wanda Date of Interview 1978-01-12 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 49:06 Minutes ; 10:58 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55947">Interview with Florence Parsons Isenburg</a> Subject LCSH Isenburg, Florence Parsons -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Farms; Teachers -- Interviews; Cortland (N.Y.) Normal School Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Florence Parsons Isenburg Interviewed by: Wanda Wood Date of interview: 12 January 1978 Wanda: This is Wanda Wood: interviewer. And our respondent is Mrs. Florence Isenburg of 1216 Poppy Avenue, Warrington, Florida. The date is 12 January, 1978. Florence: I have been asked to record some of my memories of my early life. I was born May 14, 1889, so I will soon be 89 years old. Marge [Florence’s daughter]: Go. Florence: —to a farm family living at Chenango Bridge near the Chenango River. Our family consisted of my father and mother Herbert and Emma Parsons and one sister. The house we lived in is still standing and occupied, but is very old as it was owned by my grandparents and perhaps built or partly built by my grandfather, as he was a carpenter. My father loved the farm, which he purchased from his mother when he married. He raised vegetables, including potatoes, sweet corn, tomatoes, onions, beans, melons, berries and had many fruit trees.This produce he carried to market with a team of horses and wagon to sell to the grocery stores, hotels and hucksters or street peddlers. On the farm we also raised pigs, cows, chickens and had two horses to do the farm work. With all of these vegetables and animals we had plenty of good, nourishing food. We had a grocery store but were not able to buy any baked goods or fresh fruits or vegetables, so we practically lived off the farm. Mother made butter from the cows’ milk. After straining it in the milk cans, it was set in the cellar until the cream came to the top, when it was skimmed off into a large pail. After a few days it was poured into a wooden churn with a dasher by plunging the dasher up and down for a few minutes until the butter was separated from the sour milk, which was then called buttermilk. The butter was taken out in a wooden butter bowl, washed, salted and packed in jars. Most of it was sold, but we used all we needed. Mother worked very hard as she had no household appliances, no running water, no electricity. She made all of our clothes, washed using a rubbing board after heating the water on the stove. We had a refrigerator cooled by large blocks of ice which was stored in an ice house after being cut on the river in the winter and stored for summer use. The refrigerator didn't keep the food very cold, so most of it was carried to the cellar. But one advantage of having the ice was that we had homemade ice cream, which was delicious. It was a good life. We did not miss the things we had never had. Everyone did his share of the work. Summers were very busy, but in winter we had time to sit around the fire, or visit with a neighbor, occasionally. Of course usually when we went to the neighbor's home in the evening they popped corn and brought big red apples from the cellar for our refreshments. Mother canned and pickled hundreds of jars of fruits and vegetables which were stored in the cellar for winter. Dad butchered a hog, making sausage and ham for our own use. There was always a ham for Sunday dinner or for company. People now are complaining about their utility bills which are high—are high. We had no utility bills as we had no electricity, no gas, no telephone, no garbage collection, no running water, no mail delivery. And yet, we did not feel depressed or poor. The church was the center of social life. We looked forward to Sunday when we could wear our one best dress and see all our friends. Occasionally there was a church supper when everyone took a covered dish and enjoyed a meal with friends. There were also simple church socials in the summertime. The principal event of summer was the Sunday School picnic, which was held at either Ross Park in Binghamton or at Lily Lake. At the park were animals in cages and a merry-go-round. At the lake were boats and we could go bathing but the water was so cold so the children all preferred to·the park—to go to the park. A bountiful dinner was supplied by all who attended. The one-room rural school which I attended from ages 6-14 was on a lot adjoining our farm. My sister and I had only to walk across the garden to get to school. That had advantages and disadvantages. It was very easy to get there even in winter when the snow was deep, but in good weather Mother insisted that we come home for lunch, which in our house was called dinner, the main meal of the day. That took too much of our noon hour when we wanted to play with the other children. There were usually 15-25 pupils of all ages and grades from 1-8 with one teacher. This teacher was also the janitor, sweeping the floor, hanging the flag, getting the pail of water, building the fire unless she engaged one of the boys to do it. She received about $8.00 per week and usually boarded with one of the families. In earlier days the teachers boarded around, that is, stayed a week in a place with some of the parents where they paid no board. Then when they paid board it was $2.50 per week. We sometimes boarded—we sometimes boarded a teacher. There were two doors at school—they were two doors—two doors from a hall—one for the boys, one for the girls. In the center of the room was a large pot-bellied stove, which burned wood in summer and coal in winter. There were four rows of double seats in graduated sizes. The teacher's desk faced these with a large recitation bench between. As the class recited they left their seats and sat on the recitation bench. While one class recited the others were supposed to be preparing their own lessons. With so many classes they were necessarily short and pupils had to do much of the work for themselves without the teacher's help. That had some advantages. Teachers were allowed to punish the disobedient ones—and usually did so to keep order. I well remember several of my teachers and know I had a feeling of fear and admiration for them. They believed in the adage “spare the rod and spoil the child,” so they didn't spoil the child. It would seem that under these conditions education would have been poor, but we were obliged to memorize tables, to memorize spelling, to study maps and to learn many facts from our reading which are not required today. [Parents] were obliged to furnish the children's books, pencils, and papers. Some slate pencils were used to save paper. Every year the teacher was allowed to borrow 25 books from the state library for use during the year. It was an exciting day when the books arrived to see what we were getting to read. There was a bookcase in our room but very few books. Our blackboards were boards painted with black paint which soon wore off. After a time, one progressive trustee had some real blackboards installed. In the rear of the building—on either side—was a small outhouse or privy, as they were called. One for the girls, one for the boys, with a very high board fence between. In the hall, on a high shelf, was a water pail and dipper from which everyone drank—no fear of germs in those days! I credit my 8th grade teacher in preparing me to take the Regents Exams which must be passed in order to enter High School. They came from the State and were uniform, used in all schools. I had to go to Chenango Forks on the train to take them, and as I had never been to a strange school, I was frightened. There were exams in all subjects which took two days, but I passed them all due to my very good teaching. Now I had finished our rural school and there was no high school nearby—what was I to do? The high school in Binghamton was the nearest, but we had no way of getting back and forth. We found that there was a train service going north to Whitney Point 15 miles away, so my parents decided to send me there. The train returning at 4 P.M. was a freight train with a small coach for passengers in the rear. It was slow, but it allowed us to do our homework. The D.L. & W. Railroad issued special monthly tickets to students. I well remember my first day at high school in Whitney Point. The building looked very large to me. The lower grades were on the first floor and high school on the second floor. I climbed the stairs and straight ahead of me was the large auditorium where pupils were sitting. Mother had made me a new dark blue dress and I had a dark blue hat. Everyone wore hats in those days. I did not notice the cloakroom at the left, so walked right into the room with my hat on my head. I was so embarrassed as the others laughed, so I have never forgotten about it. High school in those days did not provide so many subjects as they do today. There were no easy subjects like Shop, Bowling, Homemaking, etc. Everyone must take Math, English, History and a foreign language or two—later Geometry, Physics, Science, etc. I remember we had a small laboratory where we dissected several small animals. I did not enjoy that. On finishing a course we were obliged to pass a Regents Examination sent by the State, and after completing a certain number of subjects we were graduated. I was then 18 years old in 1907. Someone asked me recently why I became a school teacher. I really had not thought about it before. I believe there were several factors which brought it about. My grandmother Parsons had nine children, and sometime during their life, eight of them taught school. I also had several cousins who taught. As I have said our home was the old farmhouse where the nine Parsons children were brought up. In the upper hall and attic were shelves of books they had used and left. I used to enjoy looking at them and reading them. I think these things influenced me to become a teacher, besides I always have loved school. There were several Normal schools in New York State. They are now 4 year colleges. Cortland was the nearest to us and I had some cousins living there.Today it is an easy drive on a good road of about 40 miles. In 1907 it was a long journey on a train. My parents bought me a trunk, which I still have to pack my clothes, as I didn't expect to come home often. I got a room near the college building and took my meals at a home nearby with about 20 other girls. Our studies consisted in methods of teaching, psychology, and review of all other grade subjects. Later we had observed model teaching using students from the grades who attended school here. During one last term we did the teaching under supervision of the Normal teachers. This was the most difficult, as we knew we were being criticized. I joined the sorority Clionian. We had a meeting room in the building and had many good times, however I was very homesick much of the time I was here. Nowadays a student could drive home every week if they desired. My first teaching experience was in a small rural school similar to, in many ways, to the one I had attended as a child. It was on Upper Front Street, then called Christian Street. I had 12 or 15 pupils in several grades and received $10 per week and did the janitor work. As it was about 2 ½ miles from home, I often drove a horse and buggy in summer or a horse and sleigh in winter. If Dad needed the horse I walked. Sometimes the snow was about to my knees, so I arrived very wet and had to build a fire in the pot-bellied stove before I could get dry. As the children arrived they were also cold and wet, so they sat or stood around the stove much of the forenoon. I can still smell the wet mittens and scarves as they were drying. We opened the school in the morning by a Bible reading and repeating the Lord’s Prayer. Books were hard to come by, but many times some second-hand ones were to be found by an older child who had used them. By using the blackboard it was possible to start work in Arithmetic and Spelling, supplemented by books I had selected. Most parents were willing to provide supplies for their children. The teaching was largely individual as the children were all at different levels of learning. A few subjects could be taught to the whole group at one time, such as Writing, Health and Physiology. I do not remember having any problems with the children as to discipline. In those days children respected their teachers and looked up to them. What the teacher said was right. How different it is today! At noon we used to go out and ride downhill—there was a hill nearby—and then in the evening, after school was out, we used to go skating. That was great fun. Most of my 20 years of teaching was done in my home district where I had attended school. For several years I taught in the same small one-room building until the population grew—until there were about 40 pupils, just too many for one teacher. A new building was erected and two teachers hired. The salary had greatly advanced from $10.00 per week to $40.00. I taught grades 5 to 8 in the new school. It seemed that this would be sufficient for many years, but in a short time the town had grown so that a larger school was necessary and also a high school. I will tell you a little more about our neighborhood. We had a few near neighbors whom we saw often in the evening, or if anyone was sick. We seldom called a doctor, but neighbors came to help and always brought food. There was a doctor who made house calls, so in that way we were more fortunate than people are today. Midwives delivered the babies, doctors were not needed. My grandmother delivered dozens of them.The threshers came once a year to thresh the grain and we always had husking bees in the evening which were lots of fun. Mother always had a big dinner for the husk—or for the threshers. At the end of the bridge—farther end of the bridge on the right was a blacksmith shop where Dad took the horses to be shod. I used to go along and watch. On the left was the tollhouse where the man lived who collected the toll from the Chenango Canal, which ran along close to the river. I do not remember when the canal was being used but in winter it froze and made a wonderful skating pond. Hiram Johnson had a small grocery store near the depot and railroad. Near the door on the left were about 30 boxes for mail. That was our post office. He also sold stamps. We had no daily paper, but a weekly Binghamton Republican came once a week. Dad liked to go to the store in the evening to sit around the stove and hear the news. His excuse was to go for the mail. Nearly every home had a hitching post and horse block in front at the roadside. Callers usually came with a horse and wagon, so the hitching post was necessary. The horse block was a large stone or else a lot of little stones piled up. It was necessary because the wagons were much higher from the ground than our cars are today. Women wore long skirts so it was quite difficult to get into them. By standing on the horse block and taking a step that extended from the wagon, they could climb into the wagon seat. Our kitchen was the most important room of the house. It was a large room with a hard pine floor which Mother cleaned and oiled to keep it shiny. A black iron cook stove kept us warm and cooked and baked much delicious food. There was a reservoir attached to one side which we kept filled with—to provide the hot water. It was all the hot water we had except for the tea kettle, because we had no bathroom. A large extension table had many uses. We ate on it often, although Mother liked to set the table in the dining room. The table also provided a place for us to study, to read, and to sort beans in the winter. Dad raised shell-beans, but before he could sell them they had to be looked over to remove any poor ones and shells. The table was lighted by a kerosene lamp. Often in the evening we had to help Mother sew carpet rags. The only carpets we had were woven on looms—made of rags. They were woven in strips about one yard wide, and sewed. Aunt Celia had one room where she had a large loom. She wove carpets for us and for many other people. At the end of the room was a black iron sink and pump—which—the pump raised water from a cistern. Our drinking water came from a well and bucket in the backyard. Behind the stove was a shelf which held a row of kerosene lamps, which had to be cleaned and filled frequently. On the shelf was a very old clock with wooden works and two heavy iron weights. Father wound it every night as he went to bed. Bedrooms were very pleasant in summer but very cold in winter. Our house was heated by two stoves—cook stove in the kitchen and a parlor stove in the parlor. As we had no bathroom, bedrooms had a wash bowl and pitcher and a washstand which in the bottom had a little door which held the chamber pot. We had to be sure no water was left in the pitcher in winter as it would freeze. Some of the older beds were called cord beds—instead of springs, a heavy rope was woven across between the side rails to hold up the mattress. The mattress—the mattress was a pad and then ticking filled with corn husks or dried straw and on top of that a feather bed—filled—a bed filled with feathers. Sheets were not bought ready-made—as they are today. Some were made of muslin, often unbleached muslin which was a yard wide, so the sheet always had a seam down the middle. When they began to wear thin women turned the sheet sewing the outside edges together so that they would last longer. Other sheets were made of linen. Linen is made from flax—stems of the flax plant. This was another task that colonial women had to do. There was a small flax wheel and a larger spinning wheel which made the fibers into threads. The thread was then woven on a loom to make linen cloth. Sheets and pillow cases, tablecloths and napkins were made of the linen cloth. The sheets also had a seam down through the middle. I think sometimes the linen was used for fine underwear, such as for a bridal outfit. Sheet-blankets made out of cotton or wool were also used in winter with many bed quilts. Quilting bees were another social activity. When a quilt top was finished the neighbor women were invited in to help put it on the quilting frame and to quilt it with many fine stitches. There are many quilt patterns. Some of the most popular were Wedding Ring, Double Irish Chain, Dresden Plate, Necktie, and Log Cabin. A bedspread or coverlet called a counterpane was woven on a loom using white cotton warp and navy blue, or occasionally red wool for the woof. There were many beautiful patterns. They were reversible and often had the weaver's initials woven in the corner. They also were seamed through the center. People dressed differently in those days. I have already stated that women's skirts were long. They were also full, covering two petticoats. In winter everyone wore long underwear, that is the long legs and long sleeves of heavy knitted cotton. In summer the underwear still covered much of the body, but was of a lighter weight. Women wore corsets laced in the back and it was the style to lace them tight to have a small waistline. Over these was worn a corset cover, a garment without sleeves and low neck to cover the corset. Bras and shorts had not been invented. Some men working outside in the cold weather wore felt boots extending to the knees and over them a rubber arctic with buckles. My father wore rubber boots with sock slippers inside. Blue jeans did not have the popularity they have today. They were worn by farm laborers and those doing menial jobs. It was unheard of for a girl to wear pants of any kind. Children’s clothing was somewhat like their parents’. Girls’ dresses were well below the knees. I had one best dress for winter made of wool, and one summer best dress for Sunday. The winter dress just before—was made just before Christmas and the summer dress for Children's Day, which was celebrated with a program in our church on the second Sunday of June. Of course we had several other dresses for school but not too many. We were—we wore them until they were—we grew out of them or they were worn out. Bathing suits have made the greatest change of all. How shocked my mother would be to see a present day, bather! Ladies' bathing suits were bloomers to the knees, often with black stockings and sneakers below. The blouse often had a sailor collar. They were made of a material called brilliantine. Oh yes, we also wore a cap to cover our hair. Children wore an old dress and a pair of underpants. Men's shorts—men’s suits were knitted cotton which came to the knees and covered most of the body. We really went “bathing” instead of “swimming,” as it was difficult to swim with so many clothes. The first sewing machine we had was a Howe, propelled by a pedal, but much sewing was done by hand. Ladies would not think of making bed quilts on a machine. They were all sewed by hand and quilted. Only one home in our town had a bathroom. It was very different from today's bath—baths. The tub was zinc—in a wooden case like a coffin. The water to flush the tub—the toilet—was in a wooden box near the ceiling with a chain extending from it, which was pulled to release the water. Marge: I don't know what happened here, Wanda, but there's more, so just let it continue to play. Florence: In summer quite often we had the company of bees and in winter our stay was short because of the cold. Father's farm lantern made a cheery light if necessary to make an evening call. These were called backhouses or privies, and on Hallowe'en it often happened that the backhouse was overturned by celebrators. Speaking of baths—the rest of us who had no baths—bathrooms, used the wash bowl and pitcher in our bedroom in summer, but in winter we filled a washtub half full of water and bathed in front of the kitchen stove on Saturday night. Father planned an ambitious project to have running water in our house. Our farm extended on the north up a very steep hill where here was a natural spring of water. In order to pipe the water down a ditch had to be dug through a very stony hard soil. It also had to cross over a, quite a long—a big hill which we called the knoll. To avoid freezing, this ditch must be at least 4 or 5 feet deep. Today it would be done by machinery, but at that time it had to be dug with pick and shovel, and with lots of muscle and perseverance. A small lead pipe was placed in the ditch and although the pressure was weak—we at last had cold running water in our kitchen sink. It was several years after that before we had a bathroom. As population increased, telephone and mail service became necessary. A stock company was formed called the Chenango Valley Company, in which interested people bought stock and a line was constructed with a central office in the little village—at first in a private home. By calling through central we were able to talk to Binghamton. Eventually a rural mail delivery—R.F.D. #4—was inaugurated, but we still, even today, have a post office in Chenango Bridge. Electricity came later, when I was about 25 years old, as I remember giving up my kerosene lamps and having electric lights put in the house. We finally had radio. It was an Atwater-Kent, the first one we had. The program I remember best was Amos and Andy. Here is a little more about my school-teaching days. You may be sure with 15 or 25 pupils in about 5 or 6 grades, the teacher was very busy and classes had to be short—about 15 minutes each. About the time of World War II some department in education hierarchy decided that Physical Training should be taught in all the schools. In order to teach it, the teachers were obliged to take lessons. So we had several classes where we learned to give the commands for daily drills similar to those given to the soldiers. These we were obliged to do at least twice a day. This was required for several years and then discontinued. I am sure the children got all the exercise that they needed at recess and noon hours. Most of them had a long walk home—there were no school buses in those days. There have been many changes in schools since my school days of 80 years ago, not in just the buildings, but in the many other ways. There's no doubt that the present buildings are much finer, more convenient, conducive to the health and welfare of the children. Also there is no comparison in the cost of the two buildings, and in the cost of their upkeep. A teacher today may receive in one day what a teacher in an early rural school received in a month. But are the results in proportion to the cost? Are children today so much better educated? I grant that young people are now better informed than in early days, but I attribute that partly to the various ways that news is disseminated, such as radio, television, magazines, newspapers and not entirely to their formal education. Perhaps I'm not qualified to judge the education of today as I have not taught in nearly thirty years, but I have grandchildren who have gone through the grade schools, through high school and two have been to college, so I have had some contact with present day schools in Florida. I know schools differ from state to state, so perhaps what I say about our Florida schools may not apply in Broome County. However I think in a general way all states have their problems in education. There has been a universal complaint that high school students and even some college students cannot read as they should. Recently all students here about to graduate from high school, had to take a literacy test in order to receive a diploma. What is the cause or causes of this deficiency? It cannot be laid to the teachers entirely, as it is so widespread. I may be wrong, but I think I can see at least partly the causes. About twenty or twenty-five years ago the word method of teaching reading in the primary grades, was introduced. A child was taught word for word by repetition of that word in the stories he read. He was helpless to learn new words until they appeared in his reading lessons. Formerly, children were taught phonics, learning the sounds of the letters so that when he encountered a new word, he had the ability to sound it out and pronounce it. The textbooks used were written to teach the word method, so unless the teacher taught it on her own, they did not learn phonics. Many teachers did use the sound method, and that—pupils became better readers. I saw examples of this in my own grandchildren. At last the phonics method is being taught in many schools, so hopefully there will be an improvement in the reading ability of pupils. As I see it, another cause of poor readers is the fact that with the popularity of TV children do not read for themselves. Many children haven't read such classics as Black Beauty, Gulliver’s Travels, Prince and the Pauper, Alice in Wonderland and so forth. It is easier to watch a TV program than to exert oneself to read a book. TV has its place and children learn much from it if they watch the right programs, but not for several hours every day to the exclusion of exercise and reading. I discussed the school situation with one of the teachers. She informed me that one of the problems was the lack of interest of the parents. Parents, in many cases, consider that they have no obligation to see that the children are doing well in school or doing their homework or if they have—that they do not have any duty to help the teacher. Instead of taking an interest in the homework, they prefer to watch television. Many children need the encouragement of the parents to do their best work. As a teacher is not allowed to use any physical means of discipline, and pupils know this, the discipline becomes a problem. In olden days we were allowed and expected to give a child a sharp slap with our hand or ruler, if they deserved it. Now a teacher could be sued or brought to court if she did such a thing. Consequently, like the doctor, she needs to carry insurance to protect herself. And very often a child reports an injury was—caused by the teacher when she had no part in it. One example: a boy was angry with his teacher for correcting him. He had some scratches on his arm, which he told his mother was done by the teacher. After a conference by those involved in the principal's office, the boy finally confessed that the cat had scratched him. In olden days many parents told their children, “If you get a whipping at school, you’ll get another at home.” That was going too far the other way, but it was a help to the teacher. Some teachers sent their children out in the backyard  to get a switch off from a bush out there to bring in to whip themselves. They tried real hard to find a real small switch. The subject of English also includes grammar. Most teachers require the reading of books and the writing of book reports, but some neglect the teaching of grammar, which I consider very important. How can a person use good English if they do not know the parts of speech, and the declensions, parsing and diagramming of sentences? This may not be true of all high schools, but ours here have had what I consider too many fancy specialized courses, which take time that should be devoted to something more important. Under the name of Physical Education they take pupils on school buses to bowling alleys, golf courses, roller-skate rinks, swimming pools for exercise. So much time is consumed in going and returning that very little time is left for the activity. Also parents are required to pay for their children's use of the equipment. If a child does not have the money for these things, he gets a failing mark on Physical Ed. Homemaking and Woodworking are two other easy courses which are good in their place, if they do not detract from the basic academic subjects. Girls are required to take the Homemaking, but boys are not. A few years ago a subject called New Math, complete with new textbooks, was introduced in the schools. I have examined the books and have talked with interested people about the subject, but I am not able to intelligently criticize it. I think I understand the underlying principle. It is to give pupils the real meaning of a number. Five is not just a symbol, but means five articles, and “five times five equals twenty-five” is not just an equation, but means five groups with five articles in each group. In other words, to understand what numbers stand for, some of the methods to prove it are time-consuming. So after demonstrating the real meaning of a number, I think tables should be memorized. Ah—now some teachers are combining the old methods with the new. I understand that the New Math carries over into Algebra and Geometry and perhaps makes the three subjects— I well remember the first automobile I saw. One of the progressive farmers, Eugene Chamberlain, bought it. It looked much like a farm wagon on wheels. It was very high up—it even had a whip-socket. The wheels were hard—no rubber tires—and it traveled rather slowly. My sister and I ran along beside it and had no trouble keeping up with it. It was several years before my father felt that he could afford a car, which was then a Ford. As he has always driven horses, so when he tried to drive the car, he was looking both sides of him to see what was going on along the roadside and when he wanted to stop he said, “Whoa, whoa back," just as if he was talking to the horses. Marge: And then he went in the river! [laughter]. All right, go ahead. Florence: Only one home in our town had a bathroom. It was very different from today's bath. The tub was zinc in a case like a coffin. Water to flush the toilet was in a wooden box near the ceiling with a chain extending from it, which was pulled to release the water. The lavatory was of real marble. The rest of us had to visit a little building at the rear of our houses. These contained three holes, one smaller than the others for small children. Instead of toilet paper, which had not been made yet, we used Sears-Roebuck catalogs. That made a trip interesting, as there was always something to look at in the catalog. In summer quite often we had the company of bees and in winter our stay was short because of the cold. Father’s farm lantern made a cheery light if necessary to make an evening call. These little buildings were called backhouses or privies. Now on Hallowe’en it often happened that the backhouse was overturned by celebrators. Husking bees was another chance for neighbors to get together for a social evening. Corn had to be husked so it could be fed to the chickens. On a warm evening young and old gathered at one of the neighbors' barns, and as they visited and told stories they husked the corn. If a man found a red ear he could kiss any girl he pleased. Usually the hostess served some refreshments, perhaps homemade doughnuts and cider. As I said before the husks were dried and used to fill the bed-ticks. After the corn was husked, it had to be shelled and the corn cobs made wonderful kindling to start the fires in the kitchen stoves. So nothing was wasted. Bands of gypsies traveled around the country in summer and I remember once when they came to our town. In those days they had covered wagons, gaily colored and drawn by fine-looking horses. Now they travel with cars. They stopped and set up camp on a river flat where there were no houses nearby, but the neighbors were alarmed, fearing what they might do. So the man who owned the property was asked to have them moved on. They unharnessed the horses, started a fire to cook a meal, and several women in gay dresses, lots of beads and long braids, with very dark skins, ah—came knocking at doors asking to tell our fortunes. If they did not move that—as they did not move that night, everyone locked doors and shut up the chicken coops, as they had a reputation of stealing anything they could find. They left the next day. Gypsies originally wandered around—were wandering tribes in Europe, but now they have come to this country and there are quite a few tribes of them around. Dad had a sleigh with a long box. Once he took our school for a sleigh ride. We had a string of bells on the horses. He covered the floor with a—of the sleigh with straw to sit on. Some of the boys got out and threw snowballs at the ones in the sleigh. Riding downhill on our sleds was great fun, and also skating. Skates in those days were fastened on by straps around the toes and ankles. They did not stay on very well. Later we had skates fastened to our shoe—our shoe soles, but most people couldn't afford them. Skating was my favorite sport. When the young couples had sleigh—sleigh rides they usually went to a hall for an oyster stew supper and then square-danced and played such games—kissing games. Those days are gone forever, for even if there were any horses and sleighs, the snowplows have cleared the roads of snow. Of all the seasons, perhaps winter was the one most enjoyed by the young people. The first snowflakes were hailed with delight. It meant sliding downhill, skating on the ponds, sleigh rides, parties, and best of all—Christmas. Preparations for Christmas were made well in advance as there was little money to spend and even if people were able to go to the stores there was not much—so much—in—ah—many inviting things to buy as there are today. At school, with the teacher's help and suggestions, pupils made gifts for their parents such as pot-holders, needle books, pen-wipers and so forth. Also soon after December first the school began preparation for a Christmas program to be given on the Friday before Christmas when school was out for vacation. First they began practicing Christmas carols and songs of which “Jingle Bells” was perhaps the favorite. The teacher was busy hunting up Christmas poems and plays as every one must have a part, either to speak a piece or sing. Then for busy work on cold stormy days, colored paper was cut in strips and pasted together to make paper chains for decorations. Stars were pasted on the windows and snow scenes were drawn on the blackboards. On the last day of school, everyone cleaned his desk to be ready for the guests to arrive. The mothers came to hear the program. Small gifts, mostly from the ten-cent store, were exchanged. Teachers received handkerchiefs, writing paper and pretty—maybe a pretty dish or some homemade article or candy. She gave each child a gift—perhaps something they could use in school, like a box of colored crayons or a pad. Everyone went home happy and the teacher was relieved that it was over. Christmas is celebrated today in the schools, but in a very different way. One thing is— [TAPE 2] Marge: On. The main thing that's lacking—in the schools. Florence: The meaning of Christmas or any religious reference, is forbidden by law. If children do not go to Sunday School, many of them never know what Christmas is all about. Our town had one church, the Methodist, and there was always a Christmas tree and program—some evening just before Christmas. The Sunday School teachers were responsible for preparing the program, so the children were assigned parts and met after school and on Saturday to practice. Parents brought presents for their children so that, so when Santa arrived he could call each child's name. The tree had no electric lights, but was decorated with the packages which the parents had brought and strings of popcorn and cranberries. Santa always presented each child with a bag containing an orange and some ribbon candy. Oranges were quite a treat as we seldom had any in winter. The best part of Christmas was that spent at home or with our families. I was never taught to believe in Santa Claus, but my sister and I hung our stockings and always found something in them in the morning. Dad went up on our hill where there were many trees and brought us a lovely hemlock which we decorated with paper chains, popcorn and hung all small packages on the branches. Some people used candles, but Mother thought they were too dangerous. As we had two families of relatives, aunts and uncles and children living nearby, we all got together at one of the houses for a big Christmas dinner. After the dinner, gifts were distributed. Gifts in those days were different than today. They didn't cost so much and they were a surprise. Nowadays everyone tells what he or she wants and expects to get, even if it is too expensive. I liked the old gifts much better. One Christmas I received a Bible and on another a gold ring. Mother always made us doll clothes for our dolls, and they were beautifully made of scraps of material and lace left from her sewing. Marge: One thing that Mom didn't bother writing about that—or talk about the church is that—oh—the church was a very important part of our lives. Oh—you didn't just graduate from one department to the next just 'cause you got that age. Ah—my group, when I was comin' up through, we had to go to Viola Noye's and we had to learn the Beatitudes and the books of the Bible and a lot of other memory work and then we had to go during the eleven o'clock service and recite all this in order to get promoted to the next department. And a—I think this is something that children nowadays aren't expected to do in school or Sunday School and that is to do memory work. And that—is a real shame because it doesn't prepare their mind to remember things. Florence: When I was a child, a lady by the name of Ada Hall had all the young people come to the church, on Sunday afternoon, where she taught us many, many facts about the Bible and we memorized many things in the Bible. These things have always stood by me and been a great help to me in teaching Sunday School class, which I have done for many, many years. I have tried to recall how our life many years ago differed from our life today. It was a good life and had some advantages over life today. I shouldn't have repeated there. People tried to live within their means. They rarely bought things they did not have the money to pay for. There was not so much worry about debts as there is today. Installment buying was unheard of. Old people were cared for in their ho—children's homes. There were no nursing homes. Very poor people had to go to the poorhouse, which was supported by taxes. Neighbors were more neighborly. If anyone was sick they did not go to the hospital, but were cared for in the home. Doctors made house calls. There is no comparison in the cost of living today and that of eighty years ago, and although wages are much higher today, expenses have increased proportionately. Of course people today buy things that in olden days would not be considered, even if they were available. Luxuries have become necessities. I have criticized the schools and some phases of education, but school buildings of today are beautiful, teachers are well-educated, much money is spent on the educational system. Children are required to attend school. Much of the material used is furnished, so, on the whole, I think we can be proud of our school systems. One thing I didn't mention about schools was the writing. As far as I know most teachers do not have any formal penmanship classes. Some children write well, but many do not. Our teachers were obliged to take lessons with Palmer Method writing and have regular penmanship classes in school every day. Palmer Method involves using the muscles of the arm while holding the pen or pencil with the fingers, instead of using the fingers to guide the pencil. On my father's farm is a peat bog which I believe is the only one in Broome County. Peat represents the first stage in the development of coal, from vegetable matter under pressure. It consists of a brown substance, fibrous and woody, saturated with moisture and can be cut easily. My father cut it out in square blocks, dried them on a rack and ground them up. He then sold the peat for horse bedding. In those days there were many horses in Binghamton and peat moss made a desirable bedding material. Today people buy it as a mulch around shrubbery. Where the peat had been cut out, a little pond formed where we used to skate in the winter. Occasionally the peat area would accidentally get on fire. It burned with an acrid smoke that was very annoying to everybody living nearby. It burned very deep and we had no way of quenching the fire. Finally it burned itself out. Women's apparel has changed greatly. Just imagine a well-dressed woman walking to church on Sunday morning. She has on a hat or bonnet and shawl or cape for a wrap, a long dress, high-bottomed shoes and black cotton stockings. Her hands were covered with hand-knitted mittens or gloves. Little girls were a small edition of their mothers. Mother's hair was long and twisted in a knot on her head, while the child's was in braids down her back—no bobs or short hair in those days. There are many other things I could tell you about the good old days, but I think I've done pretty well to remember as much as I have, so I think we'll call this finished. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Florence Parsons Isenburg Subject The topic of the resource Isenburg, Florence Parsons -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Farms; Teachers -- Interviews; Cortland (N.Y.) Normal School Description An account of the resource Florence Parsons Isenburg talks about her family farm in Chenango Bridge, NY and the crops they raised, social activities, and her upbringing. She describes how things were done on the farm, including tasks and chores, methods of cleaning, cooking, and farming and what the neighborhood was like. She discusses how farming changed with the advents of installed water systems, bathrooms from outhouses, mail delivery, the first telephone, and electric service. She describes her education and notes that she attended the Cortland Normal School. She discusses her first teaching positions, how the local school system changed while she was there. She details how methods of teaching changed over the years, as well as, how lifestyle changed over time. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recordings 34A; Recording 34B Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isenburg, Florence Parsons ; Wood, Wanda Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-12 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 49:06 Minutes ; 10:58 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0c8848de3376827a12c5948050203bf2.mp3 c84fbc024164e2c82a6da5440831ec12 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5bf812daa036adaec7594d4ea4c8ba5b.mp3 dfe6b0cabc4d858f37c0bad08841c7fd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. 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The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kuryla, Frances Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1978-01-13 Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:42 Minutes ; 00:24 Seconds Collection Broome County Oral History Project Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56074">Interview with Frances Kuryla</a> Subject LCSH Kuryla, Frances -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Frances Kuryla Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of interview: 13 January 1978 [This interview concerns Mrs Kuryla's father, Michele Gallo, and her Uncle, Nichola Gallo, hereafter referred to as Uncle Nick. The third voice in the interview on tape is Barbara Gallo, Mrs Kuryla’s sister.] Dan: Frances, will you relate to me the immigration of your father and your uncle to this country and their life and experiences in the community, and start right there in Italy where they were born? Frances: Well, they were born in a little town, Padula, in Salerno and my uncle, as an elderly brother, came to America first at the age of seventeen, ah. Dan: That was your Uncle Nick? Frances: My Uncle Nick. Dan: OK. Frances: And ah, the reason I suppose they did come was their trade, that they thought they would have more of an opportunity to practice their trade, which was stonecutters, and ah, my uncle came in 18— Dan: —87. Frances: 1887, and he settled, well, he settled in, ah, Glen Falls. I think it is very difficult— Dan: When did he come to Binghamton? Frances: Well, he came to Binghamton in 1897 on a job on the Courthouse. He was employed by Carlucci of Scranton, and he was foreman on this work on the Courthouse. In the meantime he met a young woman, widow woman, who had a business on Chenango Street in the Moon block, and they married and they started this business from then on. Dan: Now, what business did they start, Frances? Frances: Candy, candy business. Dan: Canning? Frances: Candy store. Dan: Oh, candy store, OK. Frances: And then he decided that, ah, to go into a bigger business—he opened up a wholesale grocery and, ah, then on he, ah, chartered his own private bank—the first Italian bank in the area and, ah— Dan: Where was that located? Frances: That was on 138 Henry Street. Dan: 138 Henry Street. Frances: And what I can remember of it, and it was there until 1926 when they liquidated it. Dan: And when did you say he started? Frances: In 1912 it was chartered, in 1914 actually licensed, and ah, I said he had a wholesale grocery, and he also was involved with the steamship agency and money exchange—that was all involved in his business. Then as far as my uncle, as I said, he kept that until he retired in 1926—he gave it all up and he retired to Italy, returned to Italy. He stayed there for a year and then came back to this country. He retired and he was fifty years old when he retired. Dan: When did he come back? Frances: In 1927. Dan: Well, he only stayed in Italy two years, then, and then he came back here and retired. Frances: He lived at 119 Henry Street. Dan: So until, 1897 to 1926, let’s see, that’s only thirty years he retired. Frances: Yeah—he was fifty years old. Dan: Now you say that he worked on the Courthouse as a foreman? Frances: Now I understand that he was a foreman, now, this was his trade. Whether he actually did the work there, I don't know. Dan: Now what building do you know that he worked on? Frances: Supposedly the Courthouse. Dan: Another building? Frances: No, what all I remember that my father and my other uncle worked on other buildings in the area. Dan: Oh, I see, OK. Frances: Then my father came in the 1900—he followed his brother here, and I, he, guess he landed in New York and stayed there a while with the family. Then also worked through Carlucci—they had this job to build the Press Building and my father came here as an employee of Carlucci contractors as a stonecutter. He did all the artwork on the doorway, the archway. Dan: On the— Frances: Of the Press Building—it took him months to do that. He also told me about the lion heads—there were six of them up on the top and he also told me that each lion had a tooth as long as your arm. I can remember these little things that he told me and how they had to make their own scaffolds—there was no rig, this carving, they also had to do their own scaffolding, you know, and I remember him telling me also, back in those days, in 1904, at that time as a stonecutter, he was making $7.00 a day, which was a big thing back then. Dan: It was good money in those days. Frances: In those days. Dan: Right. Frances: This is what he used to tell me about it. Then Dad, I guess he got what they call, almost like a miner's, you know, a spot on the lung. Dan: Yeah, yeah, a lung disease. Frances: Yes, so he had to give it up and he went back to Italy in 1909 or 1910—he went back to Italy, supposedly to get the cure or whatever it was. So when my Dad came back to America, which must have been about 1910—he was only there for about a year in 1910 and, ah, he gave it up and he went into business with my Uncle Angelo Sessani, they had, like a hotel. Then he met my mother and they decided that he would pull out of that and they got married, in 1915 he married my mother, and they opened up their own store on Fayette Street in the Serafini building. Then in 1921 my dad moved his little store to the building at 9 Fayette Street, you know, where they are now—where Mike was born in 1921. Then he went into the wholesale grocery business and dealt with all the Italian import business—he used to distribute to, like the Arlington and all that. Then when my Uncle retired in 1926, my dad took over the steamship agency and the money exchange—he expanded his business to that, and then Dad retired when—80 years old. Dan: Until he was 80. Frances: Yeah, he died in 1971. Dan: Ah, did this bank, now, that your uncle established—-what was the reason for establishing that? Now, this was an Italian bank, right? Frances: Yeah, it was a State of New York, but it dealt with the immigrants to be able to help them to speak English. They couldn't speak, you know. Dan: And then, also—what was the steamship end of it? Frances: Like the Broome County Travel. Dan: Just like the Broome County Travel Agency. Frances: Yeah, it was a travel agency by boat—there was no air. Dan: That was started in what year? Frances: I suppose along that time, too—I mean, I can't pin it down. Dan: He got out of that in 1926 and it just closed. Frances: He got out of that in 1926 and it just closed, the City Bank, the City Bank, what do you call it where they came in and checked up? And they closed up—you know, that’s when they liquidated his bank. Dan: Yeah—now, when he established the bank, I mean, did he have to have so much assets? Do you know how much assets there were? Frances: I don't know how much there were. Dan: You know, I checked some directories dating back to 1880, 1890, over at Roberson Library, and they had quite a few banks listed and they boasted of capitals of $100,000. Which is—that was a lot of money, you know. Of course, today it’s peanuts. Frances: Well my cousin Annie, Annie Sassani, I was talking to her yesterday—of course she worked for my uncle, you know, until they liquidated his bank—and she said that very day, that last day when the investigators or whatever came in, they checked it all out or whatever it was, and it came right to the penny—everything—you know, the license was removed as part of it. It had to be licensed. Dan: Do you know what was the reason why it closed? Frances: Because he retired. Dan: Oh, just retired. Frances: He didn't need to anymore—there was no other reason, he just retired. And then my cousin, she was over there, he took his daughter over there and she married over there. Dan: And then he came back here. Frances: And then he came back here. Dan: And then he was just in retirement after he came back here. Frances: Yeah. Dan: But your dad carried on the wholesale grocery. Frances: My dad—he did not start my father in the wholesale business, he had nothing to do with it. My dad only took from my uncle was the steamship agency and the money exchange, but as far as the business, the wholesale, that was my father’s establishment, not my uncle’s, see what I mean? Dan: What was your father's? The steamship was your father’s. Frances: The grocery store was my father’s. Dan: The grocery store was your father's. Frances: Yes, but when my uncle closed up all his business, my father took over his steamship agency and money exchange. The bank was not transferable—that was licensed. Uncle Nick had a grocery. Dan: But you say the money exchange—this was for—? Frances: Foreign exchange money orders, people who would send money over here. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Frances: Well, that’s about it, of course they were property owners, no doubt about that.  Dan: Yeah, yeah, but your dad, outside of his affiliation with the bank there, was primarily in the grocery business, right? Frances: Forty-some years. Dan: You say he worked on the Kilmer Building? Frances: The Press Building my father worked on. Dan: The Press Building. Frances: Of course there was a Kilmer building, too, but they, ah, they used to say the one up near the Arlington was actually the Kilmer building. They called that the Kilmer building—the Landers. Dan: The Landers, yeah. Frances: But the Press Building was actually a Kilmer building, he owned it and Dad actually worked on it, I know that for a fact. In fact to look is like, well, it will be there forever. I hate the thought of ever tearing it down. Dan: In essence, though, Frances, the reason that your uncle came to Broome County was because the contractor down in Scranton had the job for him here, and ah, your dad—having the same trade, he came over too. Frances: Yeah, you see, they were apprentices—my dad was, in Italy—to the trade. They actually came up from Pennsylvania, but when my dad landed in New York, he had a sister living in New York and he stayed with her for a while. Then he went to Scranton. Dan: So he did have relatives in the States already. Francis: Oh yeah, in New York—evidently they came before Dad, but Dad was younger. Eventually all the family resided in Binghamton. Dan: Yeah, and how about the language barrier? How did they overcome that? Frances: My uncle spoke fluently, English fluently. Dad still, he was, of course he was hard of hearing, so what—ah, when he first came, whatever he learned in the beginning, that sort of stood with him, so he still had the accent, but Dad read. Dan: Did he have to attend any schools here at all? Frances: No, but they were educated in Europe—they both had, like a high school education. Uncle Nick was more with the English speaking than Dad was—like, like he was a great friend of Harvey Hinman, the man who used to be the Chancellor of the State of New York, and Senator Clark. I've got pictures of my uncle with Senator Clark—they used to be buddy-buddies with Senator Clark in my day. You know the ones who had Senator Clark over on the old Vestal Highway, that had the farm there—well, ah, I have pictures of my uncle—he mingled more with the political element. He did quite a bit, like during the election time—took the Italian people to go out and vote—like a leader, like you know. People depended on him a lot for help in translations and stuff. He was like my mother. My mother did a lot of that—of course Mother was American-born. She was born in Scranton, Pennsylvania, but Mother did a lot of, for instance, my dad's trade or my dad's business. Dad didn't come in contact with the others in his earlier days, he dealt more with the immigrants. Like when they came, showing them the way to get around and handling a lot of stuff. Now my mother would do a lot of interpreting for these people who couldn't speak English, although she was American-born but she spoke fluent Italian. So this is what, their contribution toward, you know, the Italian community—helping the immigrant when they came, you know. They didn't know which way to turn and the store was there and they, it was like home to them—it was that area where the Italians all sort of settled. Dan: Right—that was down— Frances: —on Fayette Street. Dan: Fayette Street. Frances: I don't know whether my dad's store was actually the first store. I'm not sure. Dan: Now, in that neighborhood, of course you had not only Italians’ nationalities, but you had Irish and you had Jewish. Frances: Yeah, Irish, Jewish, and Italians, and that’s it. Dan: In that particular area. Frances: And there wasn't nothing else but that particular area where Dad’s store was, was of Italian extraction, almost everybody there. The only Italian church was there, most functions were right around, so—as I said, as far as my dad, Uncle Nick was more political, more social than my dad. My dad was more of the business element of Italian people, so he therefore spoke English, but it was broken, you know—he could write. Dan: But of course the clientele he dealt with, I mean, probably couldn't speak anything but Italian. Frances: Right. Dan: And of course your mother was an interpreter. Frances: Yeah, many of the new citizens. Dan: And you say what year your Dad retired? How many years was he in business down there? Frances: Ah— Dan: Just approximately. Frances: Wait a minute, when did Kennedy get shot? Dan: About fifteen years ago. Frances: That’s when Dad retired, so Dad would be 90, ah, he died in 1971. About 1966, he closed because he got sick. Dan: 1966. Frances: I think that’s when he quit. He opened his business in 1915. Dan: Now this bank that your uncle established, ah, that was the only Italian bank—there hasn't been one since, has there? Frances: I think there was, ah, I'm not quite sure. [To Barbara, her sister] Was Mr. Buono—? [Back to Dan] I don't think there was, actually. It might not have been licensed, actually, I couldn't say—Mr. Buono had something to do with savings or something like that, but Uncle Nick was actually a licensed, a private bank, you know, like First City. From 1912 to 1926. Dan: But he was a very, very astute businessman. Must have been—you figure coming here in 1887, coming to Broome County in 1897, and going back to Italy in 1926 is only about 30 years and he's made, he's made his fortune. Frances: He owned some property like my dad did, and buildings like that and investments, whatever they were. Like I say, he always said when he was 52 he was going to retire, and he did—actually, he was 50. Dan: He was 50 years old when he retired. Frances: And he lived to be what, about 82. Dan: No Social Security in those days, either. Frances: No, they did it all on their own. If they had anything, they worked hard for it and they saved for it. Dan: Yeah they must have, working at $7.00 a week—a day, rather, $7.00 a day. Frances: That was high pay, because I can remember my mother saying that she worked for $7.00 a week and my dad was getting $7.00 a day.  Dan: $7.00 a day, so you figure that times five, that was pretty good money. Because EJ, I mean, they were $4.00. $3.50 or $4.00 a day or something like that. Frances: In those days. Dan: Well, that was back in the early part, well, you know in about 1935, something like that, ‘36, they were getting about $35.00 a week—that would be about $7.00 a day. Frances: Mother said that she worked in a cigar factory for $7.00 a week. Dan: Your mother did. Frances: When she came from Pennsylvania. Dan: Oh yeah, what factory did she work in? Frances: It was down there near the old EJ factory there in Johnson City. Wasn't there one in Binghamton—a cigar factory? Dan: This was at one time the cigar factory of the world. Frances: Yeah, almost everybody worked there—she said they came up from Pennsylvania. They took the train down to Lestershire, they used to call it. Dan: Yeah, that was the forerunner of Johnson City. Frances: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a lot of little details, like right now I could say—your mind is gone. We had one session before you started this and I went blank, really. Dan: Now, this paper that Barbara has here goes into detail. Frances: More in detail about my uncle. Dan: Your uncle, how he was knighted, etc. If I could take or borrow that, Barbara, and have it Xeroxed and return it to you and that would be sort of a memorabilia that would go along with this transcription—? Frances: Actually, my uncle was the head of the Italian community at that time. I mean like everybody has one person and he sort of was the overseer of a lot of Italian doings, like the Church—the beginning of St. Mary’s Church—my uncle was involved. Dan: Was he one of the founders of the Church? Frances: In fact, there was a lot to it that we don't go into details—the facts are, he was a trustee for a long, long time but he, ah, I think he had a lot to do with, actually, of the building of St. Mary’s Church and money raising, fundraising at that time, and being a man like you say, position, he had a lot of influence and social work like fundraising during World War I. See, Dan, I have this thing. This is, my mother had it all these years, ah, it was in the Binghamton Press. I kept it—I like to put it in a frame so it don't— Dan: Oh, it’s your uncle. You might get that laminated, Frances. Frances: I don't know the date that’s on it—19—what is it? Dan: 1923. Frances: He was knighted in ’22. Socially and politically, he was a very well-known man and I think he did great service. Dan: But your dad, you know, worked on the Courthouse. Frances: I know he worked on the Press Building, not sure of the Courthouse. Dan: But your uncle— Frances: Our uncle worked on the Courthouse. Dan: You don't know where, I mean. Frances: He was a foreman—he had men under him. Dan: He had men under him when it was built. Frances: Whether he actually worked on it, I don't know—whether that thing says anything. No, he was a foreman, now, whether he did actual, as he was engaged as a stonecutter on that building until its completion. Dan: Well then he did—probably a working foreman. Frances: Yeah, that’s probably what they had, more like, today you’re a foreman you don't do the—but I also remember my uncle saying that he worked on a house on Riverside Drive—supposedly over a doorway, and you know, to this day, I think I know the house but I never ventured up to look and see what kind of work is on that front door. Dan: You know there is a house on Riverside Drive that’s made out of stone, completely out of stone, and that was the Pratt mansion. Frances: Is it the lower part of Riverside Drive towards the bridge? Dan: Right, right, right. It’s on the right hand side as you're going toward Johnson City and it’s on the right. Frances: That might be it. He said he worked on, over the doorway of one of those houses and I never took the time. Dan: That’s the only one there to my recollection, the only one there that’s all stone. Frances: Does it have a porch on the right hand side? Dan: On the right hand side I think there is a porch and there’s a breezeway on kind of, you know, on the left hand side. Frances: I'll bet my dad—that seems to be the one, but he never showed me, he told me, so I can't really say that’s the one. Dan: That’s your dad? Frances: No, that’s my uncle. Dan: Your uncle, your uncle did more of the stonemasonry than your dad did, didn't he? Frances: No, I wouldn't say that. My dad was more of a tradesman. Dan: I thought he was more in the grocery business. Frances: No, no, my dad was more so, as I say, just working on that particular building, on the Kilmer, on the Press Building, was really the big thing because that took a number of years, 1904 to 1910—before 1904. Like he told me four months over the archway. No, I think my uncle was more of a businessman, rather, that was a trade and most of these, my father and his two brothers—that was a way of life in the area that they came from—it was something the whole people in that community, that they were all stonecutters—they were some of the best in southern Italy. Dan: Now this is the homestead of your dad? Original homestead? Frances: Well, we've been here for fifty-some years. You mean on Court Street? No, we used to live on Fayette Street. Dan: Oh, did you? Frances: Sure, when I went to St. Mary’s School, where did I go? Dan: I don't remember. Frances: Don't you remember the box of macaroni I used to have to bring to the main altar? Mother and Dad used to reside on Henry Street. The greatest part of our life was on Fayette Street and here. We've been here since 1928. So I would say that a good length of time. But Dad went into the grocery business, I guess, I mean his own grocery business, when he married Mother in 1915. Dan: 1915. Frances: And he built, saved his money and built that building in 1916 when we went into 9 Fayette Street, and that’s when really his business started to, you know, he went into big scale. Dan: In wholesale he probably sold to a lot of stores around. Frances: He sold Arlington, and he supplied a lot of restaurants around here with Italians and the Arlington. You see, Dad also had his own name brand—the Gallo Brand Macaroni, the Gallo Brand Olive Oil, tomatoes. So they used to come in big trucks and deliver macaroni like they do now and Dad used to go, like the Arlington Hotel—he used to be the salesman and my mother would take care of the store. Community Coffee Shop used to buy from him—remember that? Dan: Sure. Frances: But way back even, like I say, I don't know whether the Mohican, but oh, yes, I remember delivering, ah, one of my boyfriends at that time, we delivered some macaroni to the Mohican. They bought my dad's name brand, Gallo brand. Dan: So what did he have, a jobber that processed this stuff for him? Frances: He had his own seal on it—the rooster, which, that was the symbol. “Gallo” means a rooster. Dan: I see. Frances: So the sticker on it would show the rooster, a Gallo name brand, but Dad had his own wholesale. He was a good salesman and then, as I say, he always felt, he said he never wanted to work for anyone—he wanted to be an independent person and that’s what he did. After, you know, after years of wholesaling, of course his health didn't permit him to go on—he had that miner's lung, but that was his trade in Europe. They must have thought that Binghamton was the place for opportunity, because they remained here and all their ancestors came here. Dan: Well, that’s fine. Frances: I don't know how much we helped you on this. Dan: Well, you helped a lot and as you say— Frances: Well, I think my dad, more than my uncle, my dad's life was limited, I mean he was a businessman—he dealt in real estate. Dad had quite a bit of real estate. Dan: Yeah, but the fact that he did have the wholesale part of the grocery trade and sold the different places which we are all familiar with. Frances: Oh, they knew, my dad had, I have people in Endicott today, many with grocery stores, and they said, “Oh, I remember your dad, we used to buy from him,” because he had all the imports, see, like Italian cheese and that smelly dried-up—remember? You don't remember, I went to school smelling like crazy—but you know, that dried cod fish, you know, things like that, it was all import stuff and you couldn't get it anyplace else except from my father in those days. Now, maybe there was a man on Susquehanna Street. Milasi, now that was another businessman, really, but what they contributed, I don't know. Dan: Yeah, but he came after your dad, ah, long after—your dad was probably the pioneer. Frances: I guess they were, there were a few of them—you know, Danny, another thing, my Uncle Jerry Lombardi—when you think about it, he was even before my father, but God bless his soul, he's dead now but you know Susquehanna Street where they used to have the dog pound? They used to have a hotel there and they had a grocery store way back in those times. Mary must be seventy now, isn't she, and my uncle had this hotel, like a hotel and a grocery store and all that back in those days. Well, you could combine things—in those days you could do that, you know. But there were quite a few Italian people who contributed, you know, in the early days. I think my uncle was the one as an old-timer, and then there were a lot in the time of my father, you know, who contributed, and I said the only thing that my dad can stand out in my mind was, he was a good businessman but that’s all I can say. Dan: That’s good, I appreciate you taking the time out and coming all the way from Endicott. I hope the weather is good going back. Frances: Danny. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frances Kuryla Subject The topic of the resource Kuryla, Frances -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade Description An account of the resource Frances Kuryla relates the immigration of her father, Michael Gallo and her uncle Nichola Gallo from Italy. Kuryla's father and uncle believed that they would have a better opportunity to practice their trade as stonecutter, in the United States. Nichola Gallo arrived in 1887 and started as a stone cutter. He left this profession to charter the first Italian bank and was involved in assisting immigrants with his steamship travel agency and money exchange program. On his retirement he closed the bank. Kuryla's father immigrated later (1900) and also worked as a stonecutter. He then opened a wholesale grocery business and had his own line of food under the Gallo label. He later took over the steamship agency and money exchange program from his brother, Nichola. The two brothers often assisted Italian immigrants with financial and personal issues. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 69A ; Recording 69B Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kuryla, Frances ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-13 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 33:42 Minutes ; 00:24 Seconds https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/67ca71aa8b26b00f1ba56884bd6a019f.mp3 ad65ce184da3527f399520bbd2b14711 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56945">Interview with Gladys Gitchell</a> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 17:09 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp3 Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Interview Format Video or Audio Sound Subject LCSH Gitchell, Gladys -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); South Dakota; Department stores Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Gladys Gitchell Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of interview: 13 January 1978 Susan: Mrs. Gitchell, could you tell us something about your early beginnings—where you came from, what your parents did, and things like that? Gladys: Well, I was born in Alpoint, South Dakota. My father's name was James Campbell, my mother’s name was Villie. I, ah—he ran, my father ran a department store in a little village and, ah, his—my brothers and sisters and I helped in the store. It was just a country department store. One side was a dry goods store, one side was a bakery, and one side was a grocery store. From there we worked and went to school, which only took us through the seventh grade as we had to be sent to the city to go to high school. At that time I met my husband, Arthur Gitchell, and we were married when I was nineteen. We moved to a ranch outside of Reah Heights, which was a small town, and we raised cattle, horses, hogs and sheep and chickens. We separated the milk and sold the cream and fed the skimmed milk to the calves and pigs. He milked twenty-seven cows. When in 1921, we decided to come east to New York State to visit my husband’s people that lived on a farm in Apalachin. While we were there we visited his uncle in Binghamton, who was Hollis M. Gitchell, Water Superintendent. He talked my husband into taking a job with the city and staying in Binghamton as not only as having a better job, but also having better schooling for our children. So, we sent word back to South Dakota and had our properties disposed of and stayed on. At that time my husband worked in the Water Department and did an east side route for the city water by carrying sand and salt and a shovel and walking the route and digging out the fire hydrants and, whenever finding a frozen one, fill it with salt and making them safe for the fireman. At that time he was making $4.35 a day. Which—we lived on Washington Street at that time, we lived on Washington Street in City property between Hawley and Stuart, and I kept roomers, and in 1927 we decided to buy us a home, which we did, at 43 Andrews Ave. I became interested in the school—parent-teacher work, and did what I could with the other ladies to get new schools and improve our school system on the east side. In ‘21 when—was when the new East Jr. was built—no, that’s wrong, ’27, the new East Jr. was built, and in 1938 the new North High School was built. We called it the North High school because it was the north—the people on the northside wanted the school built in their district. So, we built it and called it North High, which starts the north side of E. Fredricks Street. It was a big piece of swampland and made a—by filling it all in, it made a—a nice football field and recreation field for both of the Central High School and the north side.  At that time I worked, clerked in the different stores in Binghamton. I started in at Fowler’s in the late forties. As the condition of the bus system changed, I found it more convenient to leave Fowler’s and come to the east side and work in a 10¢ store. It was on the corner of Robinson and Moeller Street, where I worked for thirteen years. I try now to keep very active in the senior citizen work, where I volunteer my time—the Greenman Center, where—which is located where the Pine Street school was torn down. Susan: Tell us how many children you had. Gladys: I had eight children—four boys and four girls. They all became active in some business. My daughter has worked—my oldest daughter has worked for the Universal Instrument, which has business in a great many different places—Chicago, Canada, and different—and she has worked for thirty-five years as a cost accountant. One boy works for the Board of Education, one boy works for TV, colored TV repair, and my son James, who lives in Maryland, works for the Metro—Metro 77, which he has worked for them for the past year. Susan: You want to bring out that it's a new concept in transportation. Gladys: —which is a new concept in transportation. It expands—the Metro system will carry millions of riders to offices, schools, stores and recreation centers on both sides of the Potomac River. The automatic fare collection begins with the open of—the Blue Line, with the Blue Line you won't have to carry any extra change. All you need to do—need to do is insert a coin in a fare box— Susan: —fare box— Gladys: —a vending machine in the station itself, and into—you insert it into the slot and it pops right back at you in a half a second, and on you walk onto the Metro train. Date of Interview 1978-01-13 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gitchell, Gladys Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Gladys Gitchell speaks of growing up in South Dakota before marrying her husband and moving, with him, to New York. She discusses her husband's job caring for the fire hydrants in the city of Binghamton and her work improving the schools on the east side of the city. She worked as a clerk at several stores in Binghamton and is now active in her senior citizen organization. She also discusses her children and their current occupations. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gladys Gitchell Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-13 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 75 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gitchell, Gladys ; Dobandi, Susan Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 17:09 minutes Subject The topic of the resource Gitchell, Gladys -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); South Dakota; Department stores https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f22785769b9e8e1d7e6184e4684d09da.mp3 575777f9ad8e5f3d5542a5ecef88f30a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kern, Anna; Jennings, Marguerite Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Date of Interview 1978-01-19 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 31:34 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55960">Interview with Anna Kern and Marguerite Jennings</a> Subject LCSH Kern, Anna -- Interviews; Jennings, Marguerite -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.); World War, 1914-1918; Teachers -- Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Miss Anna Kern and Miss Marguerite Jennings Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of interview: 19 January 1978 Susan: This is Susan Dobandi, interviewer, and I'm talking with two retired school teachers, Miss Anna Kern and Miss Marguerite Jennings, who live at 386 Main St., Johnson City, NY. The date is January 19, 1978. Miss Kern, could you tell us a little something about where you were born, what your parents did, about your early beginnings and things like that? Anna: Well I was born in 1893 in Herkimer, it was a village fifteen miles east of Utica in the Mohawk Valley and as—as I grew up—uh um—I don’t know what to say uh—my father was a doctor and in those days of course there were no automobiles. We had to go by carriage in the summertime and sleigh in the wintertime and the sleigh was an open vehicle and temperatures used to get much lower and we used to have much more snow than they do now, even this storm would have been a simple storm at home in those days because as we'd sit in the window and look out we couldn’t see people walking by on the street because the snow had been piled up so high from shoveling and we could see the ears of a horse going by but you couldn't see the cutter and of course they went on top of the snow and at one time Father had to go up into the country. It was ah about 18 below zero. He always—and he wore what they call a Russian vest, which was a padded vest but this one night because it was so cold Mother put newspapers under the Russian vest and a then put on his coat and his overcoat and he had a little charcoal stove in the foot of the—a little charcoal heater under his feet and of course just an open cutter and he had to have his hands be—he had a big heavy fur robe and he had his heavy fur gloves but he had 8 miles to drive that night. And one time, this was several years later, when his driver was ill for the winter and Mother had to go with him in the morning and then my job was to come home after school to go with him when he made the rest of his calls after his afternoon office hours—and this one—in Saturday morning I always had to help him and that morning I frosted my left hand so that I've always had trouble—it would get cold and turn white ever since then and I guess that's enough about our winters. I grew up in a normal school and we had outdoor—we were very much interested in all outdoor activities, skating, coasting. As we grew older there was a—one of the boys had a bobsled that held ten people and we would go after school. There was one particular hill, it was a mile long. We just couldn't start at the top because we would get going so fast that we couldn't make the curves and a couple of times we spilled but we could only go once after school. But we would go out after supper and we had to have a chaperone with us and one of the teachers in school, she was a peach and she didn't know how to teach very well but she was such a good sport. She went with us every evening and one time the bob overturned and her face scraped along on the ice but she came to school the next day with burns on the side of her face, her face all scratched but the next time we asked her to go, she was ready, she went with us just the same. I graduated from high school in 1910 and I wanted to go to kindergarten training school which was in town. My sister had gone to Pratt Institute in Brooklyn and a—Father said yes, I could go there if I would go somewhere else afterwards and of course—courses were all two years. In the normal schools, any of the schools were only two years and I promised, thinking that he'd forget it, but he didn't, so after I had been in two years they arranged for me to go to school in Syracuse. Ah—there were very few ah kindergarten, purely kindergarten training, as far as I know there were only two—one in Boston and one in New York. In the normal schools they taught kindergarten along with the grade schools and but—this a school where I wanted to go, they had a kindergarten course, so I spent my two years there in Herkimer and a—Syracuse at that time was training their own kindergarten teachers and the principal of the school was a friend of Mother’s so that they thought that that would be a good place for me to go. Father didn't forget that I was to go away somewhere so they arranged for me to go to Syracuse and I was there—a—from the first of September to the middle of October and I was asked if I would take a class. Well, I was home at the time for my brother’s wedding and of course he told me there and Father said no, I had to continue my schooling. So, when I went back to Syracuse the principal talked for a half an hour just steadily telling me I was wasting my own time and my father’s money so I called him on the phone and he said, well, he'd leave it up to me. I could take it, so, that’s how I happened to come to Lestershire. I was—a—that was Columbus Day and the principal—well the principal came up to school to interview me first and that was Professor Smith, he was the principal—the Superintendent of the school and I came down here the 12th on the train from a Syracuse—from Utica, and Marguerite, who was teaching here two years ahead of me, had come down on the Syracuse train. Well Professor Smith told me at the time that he had made arrangements for me to sleep that night at a boarding house and then I could look for a room the next day. So my train got in five minutes ahead of Marguerite's. Professor Smith met me and we came down on the trolley car and stopped. He took me down to the house on the next corner and a I—when Marguerite came in, the landlady told her I was going to sleep with her that night but she didn't think much of that arrangement, so we weren't very good friends for a while, but uh the next day I did go and look for a room and stayed there two years and before I went to another room, of course this was Lestershire, that I came to. Susan: How much did you say you paid for your room at the time? Anna: I, my salary was $425 per year but I didn't earn quite that much because I didn't come until the middle of October and that was deleted from the salary and they had increments of $25 a year. The second year that I was here I gained my $25, but Marguerite was given an extra $25 because she was only a $25 ahead of me and she should have been $50 ahead of me in salary and a— I remember when we first came to Lestershire the pavement went from just down to the E-J shoe store and a out here in front between street, Charles Street, Baldwin Street all along through there it was just a mud hole and the road was very narrow through this section right here. They had to fill in before they could pave it. It was a hollow. I started in what they call the old Hudson Street School. Later it was named the Franklin Smith School, named after the Superintendent, and I stayed there until ‘25 and then in ‘25 I went over to the Harry L. School on the north side of town and I taught there, well I taught altogether 41 years and—ah—talk about salaries, at the end of 41 years I got $4,600 and now the starting salary is about $8,000 so you get that difference in just these few years since I retired. I retired in 1954 and I did some substituted in kindergarten and also in the grades in all of the schools at one time or another and—Is there anything in particular that you want me to talk about? Susan: Well, why don't you mention the ethnic background of the children that you first taught? Anna: Oh yes, well when I went to the Harry L. School, that was not in the Johnson City limits. When that school was built it was in the Town of Union, but the people—E-J was just beginning to build, ah, opening up streets up the hill, back of the school, and well, to go back 2 years there was a need for a kindergarten and a first grade over in that section so a little building was rented. I think it was a little chapel of some kind. They rented that for the week and had a kindergarten and a first grade there for the two years while they were building the school. It was an eight room school at the beginning and two years later they put on a twelve room addition and then of course still later I don't remember just, let’s see, it must have been in 1952 or ‘53 they put on this last big addition and that’s the way that section grew. I don't remember just when they went into the ah Johnson City—when the limits of Johnson City were extended. When I first went there, there were no sidewalks or anything you had to plow through the snow and through the mud and ah well—  Susan: The point— Anna: There were in the school—we had a ah—there were Russians, Polish, Czechoslovakian, ah, no Italian happened to move in at that time, I don't know whether or not they did later on, but at that time it was mostly the Slavic, Czech people and very, very nice families, very nice people, anxious to get along and so interested in their children. And I remember one time, of course we didn't have PTA meetings at the beginnings, it was organized after I had been teaching quite a few years, but there was a PTA established soon after the school was built, the Harry L. School was built, and Miss Clark announced at one time they were beginning to have trouble in the Binghamton schools with the children, and she made the remark one time that the schools in Johnson City, there was the least trouble in that school because the parents disciplined their children and there were other children—sometimes the children were brought in in the middle of the year right from the boat, a couldn't speak English and sit down in a chair and—a—the majority of them were ready to go into the first grade along with the rest of the children. They learned English very quickly, learned the customs very quickly, and I had the least trouble with discipline with those children that had come from the old country. Very seldom did we—did I have any trouble in kindergarten. I don't know about any of the other grades but a they were lovely children, lovely families. I used to like to go to visit, we had to make calls on—all of the homes of all of the children. We had in class every year and of course I had two classes so that meant quite a bit of walking and—a—climbing the hills. I used to love to go at Easter and Christmas time because I always had such delicious kolaches and different cookies to be treated. And—a—some of course—some of the homes the mother couldn't speak English. The children hesitated about—a—what is the word I want?—interpreting, I couldn't think of the word—they were hesitant about it. They didn't seem to want to show that they could speak the foreign language. They wanted to show they could speak English. Susan: Now it's an advantage these days, the more languages that you know. Now it’s an advantage. Anna: Oh yes, of course it is and I know at school we try to impress upon the children that it would be very, very valuable for them to keep up with their original language and I think that some of the older children have found that out but I—the smaller children I was dealing with, they didn't want to speak their native language. Well uh um—Any more questions? Susan: Well,you might want to mention some of the things you did during the War. Anna: Oh yes, of course, I was here at the time of the First World War and we started knitting before the United States went into the War. We were helping sending things over to Britain—a—knitting scarves and sweaters and things of that sort and then a so Mrs. Harry L. Johnson a started a, and Miss Jeanette Johnson also worked in it later, started what they call the gauze class and they made dressings to be used in the War, this was after we had gotten in the War, and that met once a week over in the third floor of the fire station and they had a very, very big class, lots of people from the factories and married people at home. They were women, the Red Cross had charge of it but Mrs.—the Johnsons were the ones that started the class and then a—one thing during the War, the Johnsons wanted to have their people that were here have some activity, so they used to have noted—a—dance bands and orchestras come, they had different entertainers, singers, and I remember there was one man who played the accordion beautifully. We didn't know anything about him at the time, but he turned out to be a quite a noted artist. I can't remember his name and a— Susan: Do you remember some of the things he did? Anna: I know they had a dance once a week up there in this hall. Susan: You’re talking about the pavilion, the George F. Pavilion? Anna: No, no, the fire station, the third floor of the fire station. No, the pavilion wasn't built, that wasn't built for a long time afterwards, and I can't remember the year that they changed the name to Johnson City but I know there was a big parade and all the people in Johnson City—a—besides working in the gauze class and the knitting—a—we met the trains as the—a— Susan: —the troops came through. Anna: —a—the trains that carry the soldiers, I can't think, that’s what they call it. As they came through they would stop here in Binghamton and we would take candy, cigarettes and things of that sort to them and the boys going through and then they'd leave off letters for us to mail and—a—we worked on the bond drive. They had several bonds, a E bonds that people worked on several bond drives with big parades and the Endicott Johnson people turned out very well. IBM workers in IBM also paraded and the time that the War ended there was a big parade and a great, great celebration, that was the first World War. We didn't do too much in the Second World War then, didn't seem to be the need of it. But uh— Susan: I think that you wanted to bring out good manners. Anna: Oh. Susan: About the children. Anna: About the children, well, that was one thing in kindergarten, if I could teach the children to get them to realize—a to share was one of the things, and to respect the rights of the other children, they could do what they pleased as long as it didn't interfere with the other children doing what they wanted to do, and if I could get that across I felt that I had been successful with the children, and of course there were many things that we did have to teach, words and sounds a a help quite a lot for the first grade. In fact I had to do more than Marguerite had to do for her 1st grade. The teachers asked us to teach the vowels learning these different words. Marguerite: We had to teach vowels. Anna: Yes, vowels. The sound of vowels.  Marguerite: The sound of vowels. Right and a we had to put in a new reading system.  Anna: Oh yeah of course when kindergarten first started—a—each child they were all doing the same things together and it wasn't for several years that we began letting—a—the children choose what they would like to do. That came several years later. Very formal at the beginning, what they call the Froebelian Method. I don't think that anybody now days would even know who Froebel was, but he was a German educator and the one who originated the kindergarten idea, and that was the training we received, the Froebelian method, when we were going to school. Marguerite received the same thing. And I think discipline of the children is so much harder now than it was then. Once in a while there would be a child that needed a little extra help but most of them—as I look back I had very little trouble with discipline in the class. Of course a few weeks if some child got too obstreperous, why trying different ways to get him to settle down, and the child and the children learned there were certain things they could do, certain things they could not do. We didn't have too much trouble like that. But uh—can you think of anything else? Susan: Well, how about you, Miss Jennings? Marguerite: I can't add anything that she has added. Anna: You could start with where you were born. Marguerite: Oh I don't feel like it, Ann. Susan: Well, I think it would be interesting for these people to know how long you two have been together. Anna: Oh well, uh—this was back in 1913 uh—as I said I slept with her the first night and we didn't think too much of it at that time but we became friends and the second year she got a room in the same house where I was and then the third year we moved down on Main Street across from St. James Church, and we lived there for 30 years and before we came here to this apartment, we came here. Susan: And now if you ladies wouldn't mind giving your ages? Anna: No, Marguerite is 88 and I'm going to be 85 in a couple of weeks. Susan: You're two remarkable ladies, I can tell you. Anna: Marguerite was born in Homer. I was just a little bit— Marguerite: I was born in Cortland and later moved to Homer. Anna: Her father, I just don't know what his title would be, he does beautiful, beautiful iron filigree work. Marguerite: He was a blacksmith but he didn't— Susan: An artistic blacksmith. Marguerite: Yes ah he just worked on very expensive wagons, and if you ever drive through Homer, right near the end of the walk, you come from the Congregational Church, you look up and you'll see a iron and that is a showing of the oh wagon—western wagon. Anna: That's all iron filigree. Marguerite: And he cut every bit of that out. He was excellent in cutting out iron. Anna: He did beautiful work. Marguerite: If you go through you want to look up at it. It's a big, big picture iron. Anna: She went to Cortland Normal for a few years and then came directly here. We both started teaching. Marguerite: We both took classes. Anna: And oh yes all through—all through our teaching. Susan: You updated your education. Marguerite: Yeah. We read the magazines, which were not cheap then either. We had very, very large classes. Now one class I had at Roosevelt, I think it was 45 in one class and 35 in the other class, and you had the two classes in one day.  Anna: And one time before I went over to the Harry L. School, I had 34 children in one class and 43 in the other and we didn't have enough equipment for the 43 to be in one class, so they divided it. I had to have three classes for a, a short time but finally they did get a teacher to come in and help me.After that she took a grade. Susan: Didn't you say something about being a shortage of books for the children too? Anna: Well yes. In the other kindergartens the books were—a—furnished for kindergarten, and we both had subscribed to a educational magazines, and then afterwards a list of the new books and a description of them, and so when I—the list was made out once a year and we put in asking for certain books for the library in Harry L. They thought the kindergarten shouldn't have sole possession of these new books, they should be in the library so that they could be shared. Marguerite: They didn't look them up, Ann. They didn't find out what to get. Anna: When I'd go to get the books, especially the seasonal ones I—some first grade teacher would have them and I wouldn't be able to get them, so after that I didn't order any books. I bought all the books myself that I wanted to, best as I can. Marguerite: We had two different principals. I think mine cooperated a lot more. Yes, yeah her name was Jennie Frail, she was an outstanding principal, of course Miss Clark was very good too. Anna: Yes, we both had very, very understanding principals, very understanding principals. A ha—we enjoyed working under them both and a— Susan: And having retired here, you have lived to see your pupils grow up and have children of their own? Anna: Yes. Even now as late as this I meet people on the street. I did just the other day—a, “Did you teach school?” and I said, “Yes.” “A were you in Harry L?” “Yes.” “Well then you were my teacher.” And I had the doctor’s assistant that I went to last Tuesday was one that I had, Novesky, and a by the way I can say that I had the lady that is interviewing me, I had her in kindergarten. (chuckle) Susan: I was going to close with that, Miss Kern, that you were my teacher too. (chuckle—ha ha ha) Marguerite: Dr. Harold Maddi the osteopath, of course he's dead now. He was in the first class that I had here. Uh ha— Anna: Speaking of people I had, George Krutz is now Chief of Police in Johnson City. I had John Cenesky, who is a lawyer here in Johnson City, and many others, then I had Edward Sabol who became a President of a university and many others, but I just can't recall their names right now. Marguerite: And I had Bob Fisher and his brother and then the Connerton boy, well he's a practicing lawyer now in Binghamton. Susan: They are all prominent businessmen. Anna: I had Robert Eckelberger, he is a lawyer—a local lawyer. Marguerite: And then I had quite a few that became outstanding teachers. Anna: And as pupils I had some of the future Johnson City teachers who themselves are now retired (ha ha). It's been a long time. Anything else? Susan: Do you have anything more that you'd like to say to whoever may be playing this tape a hundred years from now? Marguerite: Well tell them we enjoyed every minute of it—teaching. Anna: We had very fine Superintendents to work under. Marguerite: A ha. The Board of Education. Anna: A fine Board of Education, ah they did everything they could for us except give us big salaries. (ha ha) Marguerite: $25 a year increments. And uh yeah— Susan: Well thank you very much, ladies. I certainly have enjoyed talking with you and it certainly has been nice seeing you again, Miss Kern. Anna: It's been nice talking with you. Susan: Thank you. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Anna Kern and Marguerite Jennings Subject The topic of the resource Kern, Anna -- Interviews; Jennings, Marguerite -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.); World War, 1914-1918; Teachers -- Interviews Description An account of the resource Anna Kern and Marguerite Jennings talk about their upbringings and how technology has changed since their childhoods. Anna Kern discusses attending kindergarten training school in Syracuse, NY and teaching in several Johnson City schools during her years as a teacher. She met Ms. Jennings upon her arrival to Johnson City. She also discusses the expanding limits of Johnson City and how it affected the school districts, the demographics of families living in the area, and establishment of the PTA, as well as her involvement with local groups in supporting the war effort during WWI. The two describe the changing curriculum and how their friendship has grown since meeting. They also name some students they taught who grew to have notable professions. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 38 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kern, Anna; Jennings, Marguerite ; Dobandi, Susan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-19 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 31:34 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/87ed9fdce623c4a63ee05dcd361a6d5f.jpg 07197e87f19bc3e6d8086a6f4f2bf605 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cf046d8614425cdedfc4caedea4295e0.mp3 a1b73960d267b156d6d9784eb6ebfea7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gallo, Barbara Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1978-01-24 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:15 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55925">Interview with Barbara Gallo</a> Subject LCSH Gallo, Barbara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade; St. Mary of the Assumption; Harvey Hinman; John Mangan; Chancellor of the New York State Board of Regents; Press Building; Broome County Courthouse Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Barbara Gallo Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of interview: 24 January 1978 Dan: OK, Barbara, will you relate to me the life and working experiences of your father and uncle from the time of their immigration to the retirement in the community? Barbara: My uncle Nick Gallo came over here in 1889 at the age of 19 years and he landed in New York and stayed there for a few months and then went to Scranton, PA, where he went into the, ah, stone cutting business with Mr. Frank Carlucci, who did a lot of work like that, and ah, one of the buildings that they, ah, were contracted to build was the new, the Courthouse, which now stands, ah, since the old one was burned own and Uncle Nick was the foreman on the job and, ah, I'm not certain whether he did much of the cutting there, but ah, later on, ah, then, ah, my dad, who was also had the trade as a stonecutter, ah, worked on the Press Building. On the doorway, and also, ah, did the work on the lions’ heads that are way up almost to the top of the building there, and his pay at that in those days was around $7 a day, which was quite high, and Uncle Nick, ah, after, gave up the work of stonecutting and married, ah, my Aunt Gussie Arrigoni, who owned a small store in the Moon Block, which was across from the Arlington Hotel. Then in 1914 he started this bank which was chartered by the State of New York—it was more of a savings bank than a commercial bank, which we now know. Ah, it was primarily for Italian immigrants—they had, ah, great trust in my uncle and would ask him to hold their money for them, and so with this he formed this bank, and then I guess he had the bank for about 12 or 14 years, and in 1926 he retired to Italy and gave up most of his assets that he had here, with the idea of staying, remaining in Italy. Then he did return to, ah, the United States, into Binghamton—he was involved politically with, ah, Harvey Hinman and John Mangan, Chancellor of the State of New York at the time, and he did much in the way of getting people to, the Italian citizens here to get out and vote so they would exercise their American citizenship, and he was, ah, a member of the Elks Club at the time and also ah Knighted by the King of Italy in, after, ah, World War I for his, whatever help that he contributed at the time towards—what would you say?—a better world, anyway, and then, ah, in 1930 or something he retired again. Dan: Did he do anything when he came back after— Barbara: No, he remarried. He was retired—it was only, you know, politically, ah, involved. Dan: Politically involved—in other words, in 1930 he just, ah, severed all relations entirely. Barbara: With the business. Dan: OK. Barbara: But he did have, also, at the time that he had the bank, he did have a wholesale grocery and, ah, this steamship agency, which, when he did retire, turned the steamship agency over to my dad, Michael. Ah, Michael came here in the later 1800s, around 1896 or so, and he worked, as I say, on the Press building there, but then— Dan: When did—he came directly from Italy to Binghamton? Barbara: No, he went to Scranton also. Dan: Oh, he went to Scranton and worked for the same contractor your uncle did? Barbara: Umhm. Dan: Then the reason he came to Binghamton was the Press building job? Barbara: Right, right, but because of the—he had to give that up because of, ah, physical, ah, ailments that he acquired through, I guess, ah, the dust from the stone there, I suppose. Dan: Right. Barhara: He then gave that up and, ah, returned to Italy for a matter of just probably a couple of years or so, and he came back here in 19, ah, 1915, I believe it was. He married my mother, Rose Arrigoni, and they together had this wholesale grocery, and after a few years he was able to, ah, put aside some money and built the building there on Fayette Street, and they moved their grocery store over to that building there and that’s where it remained for about 40-some years, and together with that he had this steamship agency and the money exchange, which was a great help to the Italian community at that time. Mother, although she was American born, was very fluent in the Italian language and, ah, was often used as an interpreter for a lot of these Italian people—especially like going to the doctor or for legal purposes. Many times she would go to the, ah, where they would get their citizenship and, ah, help them in that way and explaining things to them, and she was quite active in church too. Which, going back to my Uncle Nick, was instrumental in getting the Italian, ah, Church of St. Mary’s of the Assumption here, ’cause there was a need for it at the time, see, and this community was increasing and therefore they, ah, worked with some other Italian people and was able to get the church started here. Dan: Now you mentioned, ah, Barbara, that your Uncle Nick married your Aunt Gussie— Barbara: Arrigoni—there were two sisters married to two brothers. Dan: That’s what I was going to ask you—two sisters married two brothers, and was Gussie a native of the United States, or was she born— Barbara: She was, she was the only, ah, the only child that was born over there—all the rest of the Arrigonis. Dan: Oh, she was born over there. Barbara: Yes, but she came here like two years old or— Dan: Oh, I see. They got married here, though? Barbara: Yes, yes, they were married here. Dan: And Rose was your, ah, was your mother—ah, she had her own store, her own business, is that right? Barbara: No, no, my Aunt Gussie. Dan: Oh, Gussie, Gussie had it. Barbara: Gussie had a candy store—they made candies and things. That’s where I guess they used to see each other. Dan: But she gave that up when—ah, did she retain that when your uncle had the bank? Barbara: No, no. Dan: She gave that up? Barbara: Then they had a child. Dan: I see. Barbara: She was, you might say, more or less retired in that business there. Dan: I see. So your dad, primarily, outside of the job he did on the Press building, did most of his—most of his time in the wholesale, in the retail— Barbara: Eventually went into the retail business because he used to go around as a wholesaler, he used to supply, ah, some of the restaurants and even places out of town with Italian food. Dan: Uh huh. Barbara: Like macaroni, which were all imported, and he did have his own brand on the merchandise—tomatoes, macaroni, and oil—called Gallo brand, which represented the—the label was a rooster, which meant Gallo. Dan: I see. Barbara: And he used to have that for quite a few years. Dan: And your dad retired at what age, Barbara? Or what year, do you know? Barbara: He retired about the age of 82. Dan: About 82. Barbara: About 82, because he was sick for about 8 years. He was 90 when he died. Dan: And how old was your uncle when he died, remember? Barbara: My uncle was 83 and he died around 1954 in Italy—he retired, he was there when he died. Dan: Oh, he went back to Italy then. Oh, then he died over there. Barbara: Ah, in, after WWII, 1942 or 1943, when the war ended, his daughter, who had resided there in Naples, Italy, came back here and, ’cause they were on in years and, ah, ah, she was wanted her parents to be with her, and it was so logical for them to go there, so they gave up their home here and retired there, and the only—my aunt died the same year, I think. Dan: Oh, is that right? Barbara: Over there, and my uncle died the following year. Dan: Oh so your Aunt Gussie is, ah, and your uncle are buried over in Italy. OK, now you say your dad worked on the, your uncle worked on the Courthouse as a foreman, and of course I guess they, prior to that they had a fire at the Courthouse. Barbara: I believe it was sort of a wooden structure in the early times. Dan: Something like that—I saw a picture of it in the Susquehanna this past week or so, and ah, I suppose it had to be restored. Barbara: Like the columns and all are, see, are all stone, and they needed to be shaped. Things, I don't believe, in those days, were brought in already made. Dan: No—true, true. Barbara: ’Cause, ah, like I say, my dad always talked about the work on the Courthouse. ’Course he did other work, you know, in other places. This was one of his pride and joy, I guess, and ah, like grapes around the archway, and then up above are the lions’ heads, which are rather large and he had to do it up there from a solid piece of granite. Dan: Yeah. Barbara: And, ah, it was all done on scaffolding, which they had to put up. Dan: So it’s all by hand. Barbara: All by hand and chisel. Dan: Gee. Barbara: It was their trade from Italy and their reason for coming here was just, ah— Dan: How long did it take him to complete that archway on the Press building? Barbara: It took him about four months to complete that archway on the Press building. Dan: You don't know how long, as far as the lions’ heads—it probably took longer to do that. Barbara: Oh, it was longer than that, because like you say, they, ah, just, they were, if you could see them, their fangs or whatever they had are real long, like the length of an arm. Dan: Yeah, yeah, uh huh. Did he work on any other Kilmer property at all? Barbara: I don't recall—-ah, this was just, you know, what they would tell us from time to time. Dan: Uh huh. And your dad took over the steamship agency and the money exchange from your uncle after he retired, and the bank was just closed. Barbara: The bank had to be dissolved. Dan: Yeah, yeah, OK. Now the, in the building of St. Mary’s Church of the Assumption—ah, that, of course, was a National church, and your uncle was instrumental in getting that started. Barbara: In getting that started. Dan: As a fundraiser, or— Barbara: As a fundraiser and in other ways, you know. Dan: This is going back before your time, Barbara—you don't know who built the church, do you? Barbara: You mean, you mean, ah, the architect? Dan: Yeah. Barbara: No, I don't off hand. Dan: Yeah, Father Pelligrini was the first Pastor. Barhara: The first Pastor, and remained so until 1951, I believe. He was the one and only man and the Italian community used to, ah, hear Mass with him as Pastor down in the basement of St. Mary’s on Court Street until our church was finished—completed—but there was, way back, we used to have what they call the August 15th celebration, which for St. Mary’s, which was a fundraising thing. It was known throughout the Southern Tier. Dan: You mean the Bazaar? Barbara: Well, it wasn’t really so much a bazaar as it is now. Dan: It was the Feast of the Assumption. Barbara: It was a feast, but it was called a Field Day. Dan: Oh. Barbara: And it was done out and they used to have people from all over come, and fireworks and things, but it was primarily a fundraising to help complete the cost of the building. Dan: Is there any occupation in particular that the, ah, Italians indulged in more than anything else? Did they have a particular trade that they brought over with them? I mean, in other words— Barbara: You mean the Italians. Dan: The Italian community, in other words. Barbara: Most of them were contracting. Dan: Contractors. Barbara: Must have been the majority of them were contractors—that was what they knew best. Dan: Yeah, it seemed to be that barbering was quite a popular trade too in Italy, because a lot of the barbers that I know and acquainted with have all been Italians. Barbara: There were probably a lot of cities like, you know, they learned that trade, of course there’s a lot of roadways in Italy and they were good at it. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Barbara: As a matter of fact, like, ah, Dad’s uncle and his dad were, ah, worked on the Amulfi Drive in Italy, which is famous now. Dan: Where is that? Is that in Salerno? Barbara: It runs along the, along the coast of Italy. Sorrento all the way down, I don't know exactly where it starts—it’s below Naples somewheres it starts. Dan: I see. Barbara: And it’s all along the mountainside. Dan: I see, and you say it's famous, you say, for what particular reason? Barbara: Because of the way it’s built. Dan: Oh, I see. Barbara: It’s sheer mountainside and there isn't much room for cars to go through, especially the present day cars. If there are two cars coming, one will have to back down. Dan: In other words, it was built for a horse and buggy. Barbara: Probably, but it overlooks the ocean—you can see that. Dan: Now you spoke of an uncle—ah, how many brothers were there in the family? Barbara: Now I'm not certain of it, I thought there, ah, I thought they said there was ten brothers. Dan: Ten—large family—and were they all stonecutters? Barbara: Now are you referring to my dad's family itself, or just uncles? They started, but the uncles, his uncles. Dan: Oh, it started with his uncle, I see. Barbara: And his father. Dan: How many, how many worked on the roadway of the family, including not just brothers but also relatives of your uncle? Barbara: That I don't know. Dan: Yeah. Barbara: That goes back quite a way. Dan: But you say there was ten in your uncle’s family or your dad’s family. Barbara: My dad's father had quite a few brothers. Dan: Oh, I see, I see. Barbara: But my dad's family, there was three brothers and five sisters, and they all came, all but one, one brother, immigrated to the United States. Dan: Is that right? Barbara: And one to South America. Dan: Were they all stone masons, stonecutters? Did they all take up that same trade? Barbara: That was a trade there. Dan: Yeah, yeah. OK, well is there anything else that you can add, Barbara, looking over your notes, you might have overlooked? Barbara: This is all, like I say, just what we can remember from their talking about it at times. Dan: Now the bank was located where, ah? Barbara: Ah, at 168 Henry Street. Dan: 168 Henry, and ah, your dad's grocery store was on Fayette Street, right? Barbara: At two different locations. The final one was where he remained for forty-some years. Dan: In other words, the one that is standing now at 9 Fayette Street. Barbara: I think for the, ah, they did quite well, considering, you know, ah, you might say the handicap at first, you know—the language—but my Uncle Nick, ah, spoke English well. They were both educated, I mean, they had as far as high school in Italy. Dan: When your uncle was Knighted, that gave him a title? Barbara: Gave him a title of Cavalier, which at that time was quite something to have. Dan: Yeah, did you tell me what year that was he was Knighted, Barbara? I don't know whether I have that down here or not. Barbara: It was after World War, World War One.  Dan: WWI. Barbara : Umhm. Dan: So it was after 1918, 1919, yeah. Barbara: They had quite a banquet there for him—some of the civic leaders there, which was nice, but Uncle Nick was a great help to the, ah, as I say, the Italian community. Dan: Well that’s good, I mean when the immigrants came over, you know, and especially, you know, don't know the language, why it’s nice to have somebody they can fall back on. Barbara: Dad, during the Depression, was a great help to people, because they were in need and many, many times he, ah, would let them, you know, run up bills because they just didn't have the funds. Dan: Sure. Barbara: And people were very good—they trusted him and then they appreciated it, and ah, I have even people now that come, sometimes I meet them and they'll, you know, have a great fondness for my dad. Like I say, he helped them when they needed help, which is a sort of joy for me to hear that, you know, he is still remembered in that way. Dan: Right, right. Barbara: I think that was when he was 90, but I don’t know what else. Dan: OK, Barbara, well I certainly appreciate your taking your time out to be interviewed. Would you like me to run it back for you? Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Barbara Gallo Subject The topic of the resource Gallo, Barbara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade; St. Mary of the Assumption; Harvey Hinman; John Mangan; Chancellor of the New York State Board of Regents; Press Building; Broome County Courthouse Description An account of the resource Barbara Gallo discusses her father's and uncle's emigration from Italy, their moves from New York City to Scranton, PA and their work as stonecutters on the Press Building and the Broome County Courthouse. Her uncle established a private bank primarily for other Italian immigrants and a steamship agency to aid immigrating Italians. She details her uncle's return to Italy and his later re-immigration to Binghamton, NY where he became politically involved with Harvey Hinman and John Mangan, Chancellor of the New York State [Board of Regents]. He worked with Italian immigrants assisting them with voting, and was instrumental in establishing St. Mary's of the Assumption. He later retired and returned to Italy. Gallo's father established a wholesale grocery store and later took over the steamship agency. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 27 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gallo, Barbara ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-24 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 34:15 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/756555be9fe142ef8a5ab43065ad3508.mp3 e51b373fded5afc08371db916a889524 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Shaughnessy, Mary Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1978-01-24 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 32:48 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56019">Interview with Mary Shaughnessy</a> Subject LCSH Shaughnessy, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cigar industry; Endicott-Johnson Corporation -- Employees; Nurses -- Interviews; Tuberculosis; Hull Grummond; St. Mary's Church; Irish; Wilson Memorial Hospital Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mary Shaughnessy Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of interview: 24 January 1978 [Note: Telephone rings in middle of interview, and Mrs Shaughnessys' sister, Mrs. Winifred Walsh of same address, enters room and is included in conversation and hereafter referred to in this transcription as Winnie.] Dan: Ah Mary will you relate to me your life and working experiences in the community starting with the early days on Henry Street? Mary: Yes. Dan: OK. Mary: Is it on? Dan: Yes, you go right ahead. Mary: Oh I was born at 208 Henry Street. It was an Irish settlement and ah most almost all girls that were around my age went into the cigar factory around there and ah we made we would get a $5.00 gold piece for our pay—we made around $5.00 a week and it was usually given in a gold piece and ah of course we walked to work and we walked back because there weren’t any cars then. Dan: What cigar factory was it? Mary: It was Hull Grummond. Dan: Hull Grummond. Mary: Corner of Water and Henry. Dan: And you say you were paid $5.00 a week in a gold piece? Mary: Around that amount—a little change maybe we had besides that. Dan: Yeah, what was your job in the— Mary: Rolling, setting the wrapper around the cigar. Dan: OK. Mary: By hand—no machines. Dan: And this was you're paid so much a week or were you— Mary: No, they counted how many cigars we done. Dan: In other words it was piecework. Mary: Yeah, piecework, that’s right. Dan: OK so in other words this $5.00 a week in a gold piece they gave you that and whatever change over and above that, that you made in the piecework. Mary: If I remember it, that was the way it was. Dan: Uh huh, how were the conditions there, the working conditions? Mary: Well they were good. We had ah they were nice people to work for. Some of them were from originally from Binghamton and some came with the company from out of town. Dan: And you say you were how old when you started to work there, Mary?  Mary: Ah about 14. Dan: 14—OK. Mary: Well I worked just a little while at on Wall Street—they had a factory there but then we went to Hull Grummond later. Dan: Was this one on Water Street also Hull Grummond? Mary: No that wasn't.  Dan: Another factory. Mary: That was another factory. They were mostly from out of town—the bosses were. Dan: And you worked there for how long—just a year—Hull Grummond? Mary: Probably 2 years. Dan: 2 years OK and you were a roller. Mary: Yes. Dan: And ah you ah you don't know how the tobacco industry started up here do you? Mary: How it was started? Dan: Yeah. Mary: No I wouldn’t know that. Just that we were glad that there was a place come to town that we could work. The only other work there would be was working in a home and you lived in with the people but ah I never I had gone in and helped sometimes in a great while but someone who needed help. Dan: OK—now after you left Hull Grummond, where did you go Mary? Mary: I went to Endicott Johnson shoe factory with the CFJ building—Charles F. Johnson building. Dan: And what did you do there? Mary: Heeling er ah putting ah heel lining in the shoe by hand. Dan: Uh huh—OK—now how long did you work there? Mary: Ah well probably I think about a year and a half or so. Dan: A year and a half OK and from there what did you do? Mary: Well I was home for a while—my husband was ill—he had tuberculosis. Dan: Now you say you were 14 when you went to work in the cigar factory and you worked there 2 years—that would make you 16 right? Mary: Yeah. Dan: And then a year and a half at EJ? Mary: Yeah. Dan: That would make you 17 ½.  Mary: How long—I was 24 when I got married. Dan: Oh you were 24 when you got married. Mary: Yeah Dan: I see. Mary: We went together of course. Dan: Oh but you said you had to leave EJ because your husband was ill. Mary: Yeah and he worked there too. Dan: He worked there too. Mary: Uh huh. Dan: So you must have worked at EJ more than a year and a half though, Mary. Mary: Yeah I think around that Haha. Dan: Yeah because if you got married when you were 24— Mary: Yeah almost 25, I think. Dan: Almost 25, yeah OK—so you left there when your husband got ill. Mary: Ah I left EJ and went in the mountains to be near my husband and took a job at the hospital and just helped out there. Dan: What, what mountains were they? Mary: Well, in the line of nursing but not, not too much so because I wasn't trained but I did help out and he said that he hoped I could be a nurse and of course I always remembered it. [Phone rings] Dan: Will Winnie get that? Mary: Yeah. Dan: Go ahead Mary. [Phone rings again] Mary: Winnie. Winnie: I’ll get it. [Phone rings again] Dan: Now, you were there how long in the mountains—how long was he sick? Mary: Oh he ah let’s see he was sick about he was first he went to Chenango Bridge he was 18 months up there in the TB Hospital and then he went to ah—well he worked for EJ, so we went to an EJ place they had in the mountains—not way up in the mountains—at the foothills of the Adirondacks and I went up there and worked until he died. I came home the day that he died that evening. I came home the next morning. Dan: Then you weren’t married too long, Mary. Mary: Oh no and we didn't live together too much because he was in the hospital a lot. Dan: Yeah, so how old were you when he died. Mary: Ah, let’s see oh around 30. Dan: Around 30. Then what did you do Mary? Mary: I went back to school and studied and went back to school. I went to East Jr. and took some subjects there that gave me credit and ah everybody was very nice and ah and ah let’s see I went to Buffalo for a short time. Dan: Why don’t we turn this off? [Recorder] Mary: Yeah. Dan: Now Mary you said you went to East Junior. Mary: Yeah. Dan: Finish school? Mary: What? Dan: Finish school? Mary: Well I went ah I had—Winnie, Winnie, don't talk. [Winnie enters room] Dan: That’s all right, that’s all right, that’s OK. That’s all right—now that’s all right. Winnie: Did you want me? Dan: Oh sure, sure. Mary: You’re registered on here [Tape Recorder]. Dan: That’s all right, that’s OK. That’s all right—it makes it more interesting. Mary: I ah remember. Dan: East Junior is only ah East Junior High School is only about a year—that you went there. Mary: Oh I studied subjects from Central but I didn’t go there, I studied them privately and took the examination. Dan: What examination was this? Mary: Well ah History I think was one. I went to night school for a while I can't tell you how long and ah. Dan: Now is this in preparation for your becoming a nurse Mary? Mary: Well I suppose yes. Winnie: Had to get the credits. Mary: I wanted to get credits. Dan: Yeah, how far had you gone to school when you went toward—at when you first went to work? Mary: When I went in training? Dan: No, no, when you first went to work, you know at 14, when you first went to work at 14. Mary: Yeah. Dan: How far had you progressed in school at that time? Mary: Oh to the 7th. Dan: 7th grade? Mary: Because you had to go to another building to the 8th grade see—down on Washington Street where the police used to be, remember? Dan: Police, police station? Mary: Police station on Washington. Winnie: It used to be Washington Street school. Dan: Oh Washington Street school, yeah, yeah, a little before my time (Chuckle). Yeah so OK, so then by going to night school, East Junior and Central, you got more credits. Mary: Well you only had to have a year then but it changed considerably. Dan: A year, a year outside of high school. Mary: Ah a year of high school. Well you could get your ah credits for whatever way you got them, if you passed and received them from Albany you know you had a year’s credits. Dan: In other words your training, th schooling— Mary: Then I trained for two and a half years. Dan: Oh you trained in a hospital. Mary: In Wilson Memorial. Dan: For two and a half years. Mary: And graduated there. Dan: And graduated in their nursing class, I see. In what year was that Mary? Mary: 1931 Dan: 1931 Ok and what did you do? Mary: Private duty for a while between Lourdes and City Hospital and Wilson wherever a patient might ask for a nurse and ah we put our names down and they'd call us if they wanted us. Mostly at Wilson and ah then I went from there to Psychiatries on No. Winnie: You went to Windus’ first. Mary: I went to Windus’ I went took care of a private patient and ah I was with him 8 years. With him and his wife of course. Dan: What was his name? Mary: I lived right in with them. Dan: What was the name Mary? Mary: Windus. Dan: Windus. Mary. Very well known around here. Dan: How do you spell that? Mary: W-I-N-D-U-S. Dan: W-I-N-D-U-S. Windus, OK what address was that do you remember, Mary? Mary: Well they owned a home on Chenango Street. Dan: Chenango Street. Winnie : On Helen Street. Mary: Win, not them, no. Winnie: Allen Street. Mary: Allen Street in Johnson City. Dan: Allen Street in Johnson City and you were with them 8 years and then you went to where—to psychiatric. Mary: Yes, I think so—well I went to medical upstairs. Winnie: She had trouble with her hands—couldn’t use the back rub. She got eczema on her hands. Dan: So where was this medical upstairs—where? Winnie: On Clinton Street. Dan: Oh the annex you're talking about. The Wilson Memorial Hospital. Mary: Yeah, I worked over there. Dan: That, that psychiatric—oh I see. Mary: Yeah. Dan: And how long did you work there, Mary? Mary: Oh I can't remember—I retired from there. Winnie: ‘61 I think. Mary: Must have been. Dan: ‘61, so you were over there quite a few years—must have been over there about over 20 years then. Mary: No it wasn't that long. Dan: It wasn’t that long. Winnie: Probably about 8 or 10 I think don't you? 8 or 10. Mary: I worked in two different, I worked on medical over there. They had medical and psychiatric. I worked on medical for quite a while and ah we used to they used to send patients up on the Hill you know up to he State Hospital and I used to take them up in the ambulance then. Dan: Could you give me an idea of the typical day in nursing back when you first started Mary so we could compare it to the present day methods? Mary: You mean of how— Dan: Nursing, you know like the medical profession has progressed quite a bit since the early days since when you know you graduated. Mary: Yeah. Dan: I was wondering if you could give me a capsulized— Mary: I remember with the paperwork today. Dan: Pardon? Mary: There’s an awful lot of paperwork today. Dan: A lot of paperwork today. Mary: Oh yes on account of this— Winnie: Insurance. Mary: You know Social Security and everything - it’s a lot different. Dan: Now outside of the paperwork, how did it differ? Mary: Well not too much. Winnie: Well when the patients left you had to do the beds. Mary: Of course some of the nurses that I worked with had worked at Wilson when they had to go downstairs and take care of the fire at night—that long ago see if the furnace was going. Dan: Oh was that right? Mary: Which that doesn't happen today. Dan: And that was what kind of heat—was it coal? Mary: Oh I imagine so, yes it was coal. Dan: Didn't they have a superintendent to take care of that? Mary: Well maybe it was the night he was off—I don't know. Winnie: It was just a house then. Mary: I wasn't there then—that was before my time. Dan: Before your time. Mary: That was in the old wooden building which is gone now. Dan: Yeah, but more of your time was taken up as far as patient, nurse to patient relationship. Mary: Yes, much more time with the patient than there is I think today. Dan: Today they have nurses’ aides and etc. to do the— Mary: No they didn't and you had to do a lot of ah keep the utility rooms cleaned and all that, that you, a lot of things that have changed today. Dan: Now how many were in your family Mary—how many brothers and sisters? Mary: Oh there was 6 children in all—one was born dead. Dan: One was stillborn. Mary: Ah there’s 5. Dan: 5 children—you said you had to go to work at 14, did your father and mother the ah did your father die at an early age? Mary: No he was 84. Dan: He was 84. Mary: 83. Winnie: He was sick a lot. Dan: He was sick a lot so that would account for your having to go to work at an early age. Winnie: Yeah, but you went to Pine Street School, grade school before you went. Mary: It was Pine Street Grade School where Pine Haven is or Pine Haven. Dan: That’s where you started in school? Mary: Oh yes, I started in there. Dan: And went to the 7th grade, is that right? Mary: I left in the 7th grade. I don't think I quite finished it—I don't remember too well. I think that ah it was the 7th—that’s all they had there. Dan: Anything about the neighborhood life or your family life at that time ah Mary that ah would be of interest? Winnie: Well was mostly Irish on Henry Street then. Dan: Mostly Irish Winnie. Mary: Beautiful flowers and ah yards. They kept their yards up very nice—lovely. Dan: About what year was this ah Mary? Mary: About what year? Dan: Yeah. Mary: Oh dear. Winnie: 14 take 14 from her age 14. Mary: I think so. Dan: 14 from what? Winnie: 86. Dan: 14 from 86 would be 72 yeah so your dad died when he was 84— Mary: 83. Dan: 83 uh huh and did your Mother live after or did she predecease him? Winnie: She died in ‘25. Dan: She died in 1925. Mary: By that time the rest of the children went to work and my sister was very good to my mother and she went to EJ and she was there when they gave the big bonus and she saved that money and they built a home on Oliver Street later. Dan: Now going back to Hull Grummond, you say you worked there about a year and a half, is that right? Mary: I think about that. Winnie: I don't remember. Mary: No—she was awful young then. Dan: You were employed as a roller on a piecework basis. Ah Mary, do you know of anybody else that’s living today that worked in the cigar factory? Winnie: Fannie, Fannie the German woman. Mary: Who? Winnie: Fannie. Mary: Oh yeah. That’s a girl over in the hospital now—she isn't a girl anymore but she's a German—she came from Germany and ah I don't know her last name now—when she married of course, she has a grown husband. Winnie: Is it Winkler? Mary: Huh? Winnie: Is it Wlinkler? Mary: I don't think it’s Winkler—I'm not sure but anyway she was ah about my age and she ah is still living and ah oh— Winnie: Mabel is still living. Mary: Mabel, yeah, Mabel Fry lives in Ohio, Cincinnati, Ohio. I have been to see her different times. She's ah she was my age and she worked in Barnes and Smith, which was another cigar factory by local people. Dan: Yeah, but you don't know why they went out of business, do you Mary? Winnie: I think cigarettes were, don't you? Dan: Cigarettes—well I heard that the Union—they tried to unionize it. Mary: Well yes I think that did have something to do with it. Dan: Why did you go from Hull Grummond to EJ Mary—was it an increase in salary or something? Winnie: Yes there was more money from the cigar factory to the shoe factory. Mary: Huh? Winnie: From the cigar factory to the shoe factory there was more money. Mary: Oh yes, yes that’s right. Dan: In other words what prompted you to change jobs? Mary: Yes, yes. Dan: Yeah OK and you met your husband when you were there. Mary: Oh I, he was in our neighborhood—I knew him when I was in the lower grades in school. Dan: He worked in EJ too? Mary: Yes he did. Dan: OK, then you were only married a year and a half when he got sick. Winnie: He was sick 5 years. Mary: He was sick 5 years about that I think. Winnie: He died at 33. Dan: Anything else Mary that you can think of that would be of interest at all? You mentioned in your class at Wilson ah there were some Griffin girls, the Griffin girls. Who were some of your classmates at Wilson? Mary: Ah. Dan: That took training—went into training with you. Mary: Oh there was quite a few then. Winnie: They were also were younger. Mary: They were a lot younger than me you know. Dan: Yeah. Mary: Yeah ah Tom McAvoy’s wife she was she sat next to me in class and ah then she took up anesthesia and she was an anesthetist when she married. Winnie: Dr. Occhino’s wife was in your class. Dan: What year was this class here—1930? Mary: 1931. Dan: 1931 and how old were you when you graduated from this class, Mary? Mary: About 36 wasn’t I or 37? Winnie: I think you were about that. Mary: I went in and I didn't quite have credits enough and I had to go back and get more credits. That’s when I took some subjects at Central High School—I can’t think of that teacher’s name. Dan: But you only needed to qualify to go into training a year of high school? Mary: That’s right. Dan: Is that right? You had a year of high school and then you went right in the hospital for 2 ½ years in training—right. Mary: Tender, loving care. Dan: Tender, loving care and then you were awarded your certificate or whatever your license to register—a Registered Nurse, right? Mary: Yeah. Dan: Anything, any one of your patients very famous at all in the community that you nursed? Winnie: Well there were some ministers. Mary: Huh? Winnie: Didn’t you take care of some ministers? Mary: Ah who? Winnie: Any of the ministers in Johnson City. Mary: Oh yeah, Mr. ah Noah. Winnie: You were working on the floor then. Mary: Noah I know him very well only he worked in the—he was in and out of the hospital a lot—he was a friend of mine is all. Mr. ah an Episcopal minister. Winnie: You took care of Leonard Steed’s wife’s mother. Mary: You know Edith Steed? Dan: I’ve heard of her. Winnie: The boys that are doctors. Dan: Yeah, yeah, Actually the one that stands out would be this Windus. Mary: Yes, Mr. Windus. Dan: Mr. Windus who lived on Allen Street in Johnson City. Winnie: Do you tell him he was President of the Bank, Mary? Mary: He was Vice-Pres—when his brother died, I think he was President. Dan: Mr. Windus was—he was Vice Pres. Mary: They started the bank down there. Winnie: Workers’ Trust—Vice-Pres. Dan: Vice-Pres of Workers’ Trust. Mary: They started the bank down there, they started down in Hallstead and had a bank up there Hallstead or Great Bend and they were from around ah I went through their town one time—can’t think of the name of it. Winnie: Well you know the Behan house on Riverside Drive? Mary: He owned that but he didn’t want to live in it. Dan: He’d rather be in Johnson City. Mary: He owned that beautiful, that beautiful home in Hillcrest. That’s where we were. Winnie: Romy Haskell’s home, the big white home up there. Dan: Huh. Mary: That’s where she was sick so long. Dan: Yeah. Mary: But I didn’t take care of her there. I didn’t take care of her at all, but she had nurses around the clock for 16 years. Dan: Is that right and you went to St. Mary’s Church, Mary? Mary: Well I don’t go there now. Dan: No I know you don’t go there now but did at one time. Mary: Yes. Dan: On Henry Street but ah things have changed quite a bit now. Winnie: Well when we lived on the East side we still stayed with St. Mary’s. Dan: Still went to St. Mary’s, yeah, kind of get used to it you know. Winnie: Yeah I know. Mary: I ah could tell you something amusing about that. They called it Old St. Mary’s. Dan: Is that right? Mary: So I got up one night at a meeting and I said, “Well I don't like to say this but ah it is not Old St. Mary’s. I was baptized in Old St. Mary’s on Chenango Street—a skating rink that was made into a Church on Sunday—they brought the altar in and it was across from where St. Paul's is now and ah you walked up and carried the baby or the godmother did and the godfather and ah walked back. They thought nothing of walking and ah that’s where I was baptized and that was the first St. Mary’s Church. Dan: That was right across from where St. Paul’s is now? Mary: Across the road. Dan: What was it—a wooden building? Mary: They took it down long ago. Winnie: I think it was a garage and they had a fire or something. Mary: Yeah. Dan: So in other words they carried the all the the altar appointments up there and ah had the Sunday Mass there before they built St. Mary’s? Mary: These priests don't even know that I don't think because they were young men. Dan: This was prior to—let’s see the cornerstone on St. Mary’s Chuch I think is around 1890 something ‘92—this would be prior to that wouldn't it? Winnie: Just before that. Dan: Just before that. Winnie: You were born in ‘91. Mary: Dick was one of the first babies baptized in St. Mary’s. Winnie: John and you were baptized up there. Mary: Father Hughes called him “Richard the Third.” Dan: Father Who? Mary: Father Hughes. Dan: “Richard the Third.” Mary: He called my brother “Richard the Third.” Dan: Oh, Richard the Third. Winnie: He was named after his uncle. Dan: Was Father Hughes the first Pastor of St. Mary’s? I think he was. Winnie: When I was here— Mary: I think so, Father Drummond. There was a Father Drummond Pastor but I think he was after. Dan: Who was the priest that used to take a and have Mass across from St. Paul’s before St. Mary’s was built? Mary: I don't know that. Dan: But you were baptized in that church. Mary: I was baptized in that church. Dan: And that church was across from St. Paul’s. Mary: It was a church on Sunday and a skating rink all week. Dan: Must have been quite wide open wasn't it? Mary: Haha there’s a lot of changes. Dan: A lot of changes I guess so. Mary: Now they've got their second viaduct. Dan: True, true. St. Mary’s has changed too. Winnie: Oh I don't know anybody—about 2 or J people. Dan: Well is there anything you would like to add Mary that you think would be of interest at all? Mary: Dear, I'll probably remember them after you go. Dan: Well if you do, call me up and I’ll be glad to come back. Mary: Haha, all in all my memory is pretty good you know considering I'm 86. Dan: 86. Mary: But I’m very active although I fall. Dan: Well that’s wonderful, it’s remarkable I mean years ago ah you know starting out at $5.00 a week you know was big money.  Mary: Yeah. Dan: Big money—you know kids today they think, “Oh Gee it's nothing.” Well Mary I’ll play this back for you and if you should think of anything that you'd like to add, why we can just turn it on again—how will that be? Mary: OK that’s good. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Shaughnessy Subject The topic of the resource Shaughnessy, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cigar industry; Endicott-Johnson Corporation -- Employees; Nurses -- Interviews; Tuberculosis; Hull Grummond; St. Mary's Church; Irish; Wilson Memorial Hospital Description An account of the resource Mary Shaughnessy talks about her birth and upbringing on Henry St. in Binghamton, NY, in an Irish settlementan Irish settlement area. She speaks of working at the Hull Grummond cigar factory and later working for the Endicott Johnson shoe factory.  She recounts completing the nursing program at <a href="http://www.uhs.net/locations/uhs-wilson-medical-center/">Wilson Memorial Hospital</a> to become a registered nurse, as well as her training there. She then discusses working occasionally as a private duty nurse, and what a typical day was like in nursing, compared to the present day. She recalls her experiences with her religion and church as well. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 54 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Shaughnessy, Mary ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-24 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 32:48 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2d88dcbc075c3590201e5300ecb15684.mp3 45766cc8ea0ebe8f3f4b0c182e86cc23 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5c6c0986d64fd5fecbded9f85552e596.mp3 3d8d0b791a9349be14ef12b7b37ee24d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e2d3bba7b9fa4fb6ba6a4ce9932fb2ed.mp3 2e9b32af2a2edf305b37e569cb4c31bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alston, Matthew Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wood, Wanda Date of Interview 1978-01-30 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Subject LCSH Alston, Matthew -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Musicians -- Interviews; Orchestra; Jazz; Photographers; Discrimination; Arlington Hotel; Bennett Hotel Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:09 Minutes ; 12:25 Minutes ; 33:29 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56058">Interview with Matthew Alston</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Matthew Alston Interviewed by: Wanda Wood Date of interview: 30 January 1978 Wanda: Date is the thirtieth of January. Don't know quite where to start here, but I would like to have you tell me something about what your life has been like. Matthew: Yes. Well, in the beginning, the reason I tried so many things, and I worked at each one of those things to make a living—now—because at the time I was coming up, it was hard for a colored man, no matter how smart he was, to get into places, you know. And he had to be twice as smart as a white person to—ah—get a chance, you know. That's the only way he could get into some places. Well, now I figured that—ah—in school I would have to learn as much as I could, and if I had the same intelligence, you know, on the same level, as a white boy under the same conditions, I should be as good as him in learning something. And that's what I did, I—I learned to do pictures, I learned to paint houses, and I took interest in everything I did to do the best I could, you know. And then I—ah—there's a friend of mine that—who was in school, and he played a recital one day, on the violin. And he was about fourteen years old. Well, that got me for music. So I went home, I says to my Dad, I said, "Gee, Clinton can play good." I said, "I wish't I could take violin lessons."  “All right.” He bought me a violin. So then, ah—Professor—ah—from Owego there—what the heck was his name? Ah—Houck*—he, ah—he, ah—took—I took lessons from him. And I learned to play the violin, and then I, I after that developed into a, when I got older, into a—a leader of an orchestra I had. I went overseas and I came back after the First War and I had two boys I picked up over there that could play. Wanda: Were you in the Army then? Matthew: Oh yes. Oh yes, that was—in the First War. And so we—they wanted to stick together. They came from New York. So we formed an orchestra and—first five men and then ten. I played at the Arlington Hotel, the Bennett Hotel, and I played, ah—in Montrose every Thursday, for the college boys there. I played up in Ithaca and went all around like that and I grew up to ten men. And [laughs] that's what my violin lessons did for me. And then I wanted to take pictures. I found out something about pictures and— Wanda: Tell me how you started in photography. Will you tell that story? Matthew: Yeah. [chuckles.] Well, anyway, it's gonna be funny. I don't know whether I should let this out or not. I—uh—I never did see anybody take pictures, you know, and finish 'em before, and I thought it was quite a mystery about that. So I—ah—was working for some people. They had—ah—ah—ah, Barnum—it was Barnum's—they used to have a—a grocery store up on, ah, Chenango Street. And a little house, a little yellow house on the corner of Doubleday and Chenango was theirs, and then they'd go to Florida every winter—and they—and I was going to school too, up on Robinson Street at the time. They wanted me to—I mowed the lawn in the summer, so in the winter, when they went down there they wanted to keep the snow clean and keep the fire goin' so the place wouldn't freeze. And one day she wrote and told me to clean up the attic, and put things aside that I thought she might need and so they could be thrown out if she didn't. So I did and I came across a camera. First I came across a couple of boxes of negatives, and at that time they didn't have—ah—celluloid. They were glass negatives—glass plates, made outta glass, And there was no film around other than the glass. So a friend of mine, older than I was, he had been taking pictures and I took them up. And Brownie, he worked for the telephone company, you know. And I says, ah—"Ernie,” I says, “I found these up in the attic."  And he says, ah, "Oh yeah."  And I says, "Gee, this Mr. Barnum must know a lot of colored people in—in Florida."  He says, "Why?"  I said, "There's a picture. There's two girls standing up and an old man, and they all have black faces. And the girls have long black braids, you know."  And Brownie commenced to laugh. He says, "Yep," he says, "I'll make some tricks tonight." He says, "Come up to the house after supper." And I went up and he had an old-fashioned—printing, you know, and developing. You didn't have to have, ah—all these darkroom lights and everything, and had that open-faced—ah—open flame gas, no mantle, just those you turn up and down, you know. And he says—he took me up in the bathroom and he had some emulsion he put in that dish and he had a little, a little lamp, one of those stinkin’ little old lamps they used to burn oil. And you'd smother inside of a small place with it, and every now and then they'd burn an’ smoke up the place, you know? And he come out and he'd hold the—put the negative in the frame, put a paper over it, and then he'd close it up and he come up and bring it to his chest, and he'd turn it to the light and count so many seconds, then put it back and then go around and develop it. And he was developing, you know, and he says, "I want you to pay attention to this, Matt."  And I looked and he says—ah—I says, "What is it?"  He says, "Now watch it change," he says, "I'm a magician.”  And so it commenced to develop, y’know, and it commenced to come up, y’know, and it come up all white, so I says, "Hey Brownie," I says, "They're white!" He says, "Yeah," he says, "that's a positive,” he says. "Now—ah," he says, "this is a negative." Then he showed me the negative with black people on there like this, y’know.  So, I thought he tried to be nice to me. I thought he didn't want to say, “Negro,” or anything like that. He says, "Negatives." So I said, "You don't have to be so nice, just tell me what they are, see?" He says, "They're negatives." He says, "So, so when you put a negative to a positive—papers—positive,” he says, "and then you develop it," he says, "it's just reversed. What's black is white 'n what's white is black."  And I says—I studied that—I said, "Well, I just have to take pictures." So I started in doin' that and I learned a little of that—and then I wrote back and told them what I found. And I found a little Colony camera—that's, oh, it's worth a lot today. It's an old—one of the first Ansco cameras they made here. Wanda: Colony? Matthew: Yeah. C-O-L-O-N-Y, Colony. And, ah, it was made o’ wood and had a rubber bellows and it had a lens on there with a cap. You had to take the cap off and count and put it back. Quick—like that, y’know. Wanda: For the exposure. Matthew: Ayuh. Because the emulsion in those days was very slow—very slow acting—y’know, it wasn't fast and you'd just take it off, put it back on there like that. And, ah—then comes the—ah—flash light. Magnesium powder. And y’see, so you get out the first time with that and I take a little bit in a spoon and put an’ on the flash—a little spoon, little pan, y’know, and you hold it up with a handle, an’ there's a little wick, you hang down an’ light it an' wait a minute and it'd go BOOM and the explosion makes all o’ the—smoke up the room, y’know, and everybody used to jump outta their skins. And after you got through takin' ’em, y’know, you'd look at your pictures. If you had a group there'd be some with their eyes shut, some of them open, and some eyes starin' out—it was a mess. So you have to ca—take about a dozen pictures to get one good one. Because they were scared to death. And I says—I went to a dance one night, and these women had dolled the place all up. It was on the top o’ the old Herald building. You can put that down if you want to. Wanda: Herald? Matthew: In the old Herald building on the corner of State an’, an’, ah, Washington. I mean State an', and Henry. It's where the Army—no wait a minute, it isn't now. It used to be the post office? You know where the old post office—they call it old post office now. It's on the corner of— Wanda: You mean the Armory—where the Armory was? Matthew: No. No. This building is still up. It's that big building that they—that they have on—on the corner, you know, where Berger's is? Wanda: Mmhmm. Matthew: Just opposite Berger's. You know that big— Wanda: —Oh yeah.  Matthew: —Army or United States Post Office. There was another one, it was about four stories high and—it was, they used to, ah, they had—they printed a paper down in there, y’know.  Wanda: The Republican Herald? Matthew: Mmhmm. Right there, across, rather, on this side—where Berger's is. And right across there, where the Post Office is, there was another building almost like that. And they used to have dances in it. So this—these people, they had—they decorated—all the fancy stuff up in there, y’know—and drapes hangin' down. So I said to the boy that was gonna hold the flash, I says, "Get it away from those paper things." And I said, "Don't hold it too high. Just about that high." And he lit it. And it went phhht-BOOM and it hit one of those drapes and it went all over the—everything was burning on the ceiling at once, and the women were runnin’ out and they wanted to kill me. I said, "Oh, I gotta get my camera an’ stuff." Me an’ him, I was scared to go back. But I got some good pictures. And, ah, they said I was for damage and—I was in a heck of a fix, y’know. Well, that's the kind of pictures you took. So after that explosion comes from the flash, everything gets all foggy, and you had to let all the windows up an’ fan the smoke out— Wanda: —the smoke! Matthew: It'd take you ten or fifteen minutes before you could take another picture. Honest to God, that was something. And any time you held one up and says, "Look at that beautiful negative!” and you had to drop it on the floor, and bang, your negative's gone, see? Wanda: Of course. Matthew: All cracked up. So I—that's how I got in it, and then I sent to, ah—the, ah—the New York, ah—let's see—it was a photographic—ah—school in New York City at that time where, ah, you know—ah—you—a correspondence course. Wanda: Oh. Matthew: And it's still in business, I think—the American Photography, that was it—way back there, and I took a course in that to improve myself. Then I went, I took papers, at one time I took some papers—oh, a fellow that was a—a photographer on the Morning Sun. But they might’ve sold—in that same building there now. He, ah—he had to go away for a vacation, and they left me, wanted to know if I could take pictures, ‘cause I had the best equipment in town, y’know, at that time. And I met Mr. Kilmer an’ his horses an’ things, and I took some pictures and had them in the paper and, ah—Oskewanna. I think they had one horse there by the name of Oskewanna. He was a favorite, y’know, and I took a lot o’ pictures of him, see, that I took down at the old—ah, fairgrounds in—ah—Endicott. You know, where that, they had a race track down there an’ ball games an’ everything. It was—oh, I don't know, years ago.  And now to show you how they were, y’know. The guards was up against there, y’know, where you had to go across the track. An' the only place, the good place to get to the track at the finish was right on that side, right next to the—ah—judge's stand, as they came through. So I tried to work out a way to get over there. When I was young I was an athlete—I could jump, y’know, like that—and I had this big camera, and I went up an’ said, "Will you let me cross, please?" "What are you doin' here?" I says, "Look, I gotta get in to take pictures." I says, "I got a courtesy card from the Morning Sun." He says, "You aren't workin’ over here." So—all the other guys was goin' over, y’know—so I walked down that way and I jumped the fence and I run across the track, an’ the horses were comin' and they went, "Matt, get outta there—go back!" And you see, we had the cameras like this—a line of boys takin’ pictures, you know, and ah—three of us, tracks was here, so you would—ah—as soon as the horses'd come close to you, you'd take a picture an’ you'd swing back and let the guy behind you get a chance. I was the last one, see, back here, and the horses hadn't got up to the grandstand—I mean the judge's stand, y’know—so—huh—I swung over and I got—[laughs]. Well, they, they put that in the paper an' all that stuff, but—ah—so that's what prejudice did, y’know. It made me do things. And then I started to paint houses. No—I—I—drove a truck for Jameson-Boyce and, ah—and I get off from that and I started—when I was on it—to paint houses, and then I—that's the chance I had for—for playin’ my music, y’know. For dances. We got dances everywhere around here. The old—it was—we used to call it the Dixie Jazz Band, if anybody will remember that—y’know, and we put all the other guys out o’ business and they, they wanted me to join, y’see. I don't know whether I should—do I sound prejudiced? Huh? In the speech? Wanda: No. Because I can put myself in— Matthew: Well, anyway, like I'm tellin’ you—when I learned, that's how I came to do so many things. And I thought I was just as good as the next guy—if I had the opportunity. And I had to make a livin' because when I grew—I didn't know I was gonna get this old, but I learned I need to make more than a dollar a day, y’know, so ah—they had a union here and when I come, I said to the, ah—Dimmick—he's the one, the head o’ the union—music, Musician's Union—I says, "Look, I've got an orchestra," and I says, "It's gonna be good," and I says, "I want to be fair, everywhere," I says, "so I'd like to join your union," y’know. And he says, "Well, I’ll look about it." And it went on for two months. I'm still playing, you know. So one of the guys come to me, he says—one night—he says, "Matt, I'm sorry, but," he says, "you can't play around these places here unless you—” Wanda: —What?! Matthew: "—join the union." I says, “Don't tell me that." We were makin' more money than they were. We were gettin' a—ah—two dollars for the first hour and a dollar and a half each hour afterwards, and that's all they were getting, see. And we'd get more because we had more time, and sometimes we'd make as much as fifteen dollars a man a night, see. That was good money, in those days. So—ah—I had three boys, the piano player and the drummer and a boy that played a—a mandolin, see. Wanda: And it was jazz. Matthew: Oh, it was all—all, we had a fifth guy. 'Cause I was in New York City for about three years before the War, and I went from there to War and then I was—that's how I got to playin' good, y’know, with bands. And not—cut out the high-tone music 'cause I couldn't make no music—ah—no money. And when—so I went overseas and when I came back, I brought back—ah—one white boy and two colored boys. They lived in New York and they were in the same camp, y’know? And they came back and so we formed the orchestra. And then Bill Jeter, here—he, he died not so long ago. He was, ah, he was our piano player. And—ah—Marshal Moore, he was a drummer, so anyway we went, we played up to Greene, y’know, every week, and this night they wasn't givin' to the music. And I said, "Look, boys," I says, "These people pay as much as anybody else, and I don't care if you're so tired you can't keep your eyes open. You gotta play just as good for them as you could anybody else."  And ’e says, "Well, you know, we don't have to—play. In fact, we shouldn't play with you." They was all colored boys there, y’know. So one o’ the white boys down there that belonged to the union let ‘em in—one at a time, see—and told 'em not to say nothin' to me about it. And I says, "Whaddya mean?" He says "We belong to the union and, ah, they just let us play tonight." And I told them where to go. I—I was mean, y’know. I was tough, see, but I was tough as they. I told 'em just how fast they could get there without me helpin' 'em. And—ah—OK. Now here's where the trouble comes in. They played a month or so. And what you do—you've got an organization here, a union. Now you've got a band and he's got a band, and you call up and say, "I need a trumpeter." Well, one of the boys that's out of work gets the job. "I need a drummer." And so forth, y’know. Well, what happened, they was getting these—ah—drummers, y’know, and other guys from the white outfit, and the colored guys would be out o’ work, they wouldn't let you. So this one boy, one time, happened to be—ah—comin’ in, and he stood out in the hall waitin' a little while, y’know. And the doors was open, see—and, ah, let's see—and so one o’ the white boys says—whaddya call ‘em? He says, "I don't—-why you wanna hire them niggers?" he said. "Don't forget," he says, "There's more people in the orchestras. Them damn niggers, they're gettin’ all the jobs." So this boy gets mad. He told the rest of 'em. And I didn't know about it 'til later. So, I'm up on—I'm painting houses now, y’know, and I didn't work out of my trade, and so I'm up on the corner of—ah, Pearne and, ah—Chenango Street. Joseph's Brothers had a—had a—a store there. Wanda: Oh yes. Matthew: Remember? Wanda: Yes. Matthew: Well, I'm up there painting, y’know, and I look down on a hot summer day, and there was my orchestra down there, pushing those hot irons around with wooden shoes on and—and the sweat comin' off of 'em, and tar. That's the time—they used to have asphalt for roads and they didn't have the machinery. They'd do it by hand, y’know. So I looked down and I says, "Ah—hah-hah-hah," I says, "Look at the band down there." I says, "Whaddya doin'?" I says, "Boy, are you guys hot!" You know. Oh jeez, they all run and hid. They didn't want to—look this sorta thing, so, so I went down an’ I said to one of 'em, I said, "What happened?" "Well, like you said, they'd put us outta business, and they have." And then he told me. He says so, then they didn't have no work and they wanted me to come back, and I says, "No." I says, "No.” I didn't want to have nothin’ to do with it. Ah, my—my grandfather, see, on my mother's side—was a Cherokee Indian, see. I've got three bloods in me. I've got a—I'm Indian and English and, and Negro. My father was a dark man, see. And when those—you know—touchy bits up there like that, you get mad. I don't know anybody anymore. Anybody'd ever do me—and it's easy—anybody that ever done me dirty—I could forget them. You know I—I don't make up. Some of them I never made up, see. And they know it, see, so I told him, I says, "We got along fine an’ I told you that would happen, because," I said, "I know the, ah—ah—the ideas that these men have around here. They just wanted to get you out, see?" And I says, ah, "Serves you right." I said, "We get along." I said, "I went through it like a man." And I told 'im what was gonna happen and I says I have an idea, because we had the new jazz, everything that was comin' up from New York, y’know. This one boy had a clarinet and the other one played the piano, y’know, and they were hot stuff, and me—I was—doin' everything—[laughter]—you know, and we—we got all the jobs, y’know. I—I—had worked up to ten men then.  And here's a funny one. All o’ the pictures I took—everybody's in it but me. They say, "Where were you, Matt?" I took all the pictures, see. So this one girl that, ah—Bill Jeter died about a couple of months ago, and his daughter came from New York here, and she said she has quite a few pictures now that I took of the orchestra at that time, and she's going to send me a couple of 'em, see. Then I'll have my own, but I'm still not on them. [laughs.] So that's, that's one way that I had to learn everything. And I put an interest, now. If you see—you see that camera book there? Wanda: Um hmm. Matthew: Well, that's one I bought, oh, about four years ago. I take a book like that and I read it through. And nothin'. It's just like mud to me. You know— Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: I can't get it, read it through again. In the meantime I'm—I'm practicing with my camera. Wanda: Um hmm. Matthew: I put the book down about—maybe three weeks later, on Sunday or something, I pick it up and start to read—everything comes right out like that, you know, you can't—you can't learn things—in one day. Wanda: Right. Matthew: I can't. Well, when I get that done, then you ask me anything and I can tell you just what's on that camera, what it'll do. And then I go ahead an’— Wanda: It's up here. Matthew: Sure. Wanda: Your computer is OK, isn't it? Matthew: [laughter.] I think it is so far, but once in a while it changes, when it gets stuck there, y’know, and I go to think of something—it just don't function right away. After a while, if I wait long enough. Now like, like there's a young lady that I knew in New York City. This is way back in nineteen-hundred and, ah—well, just before the War I met her and—she was a very nice-looking colored girl, and her name was Catherine and I couldn't think of the other name. I just laid there—think—and think and think, this morning. I don't know what made me think of her, but anyway, I did, and ah—"Sullivan." Because she had a name, you know—that was an Irish name. She was a colored girl. So, as I said that—I put it together. I said it's nothing that I could call a Johnson or Jackson—now that's a name of another race. And so I just like to do—and that, that was over—since nineteen and—and sixteen, I guess. So you see, the function there, comes after a little bit. Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: Now there's a lady, you want to ask me about her. See that nice lady there on the table? Wanda: Oh yes. Matthew: I don't know whether she's dead or who she is or where she lives. I've had that for fifteen years. Now—here's what happened. I used to take a lot of portraits, right—I lived—I had two big rooms and I took all nice—portrait pictures, you know. My daughter's got all of the—junk over to her house. And I went lookin’ around. I used to go down to the Volunteers and Salvation Army to buy frames. 'Cause they were expensive. That frame—she was in that, y’know, and I took her home and she looked at me like that, you know. It—it just—I thought to myself. You take a look at it, take it up close. Wanda: It's beautiful, isn't it? Matthew: Uh- huh. And I said to myself, "Jesus, that nice lady, I can't just take her out of there and tear her up or throw her away." And everybody thinks she's my wife. [chuckles.] I said, "I don't know whether that's an angel or not." I said, "That lady might be dead for a long time," but I says—ah, I just couldn't throw her away. You know I didn't want—because that, ah, frame—I coulda used the frame, all right. But I says, "No." And she looked at me like that, y’know, and I said, "All right." Isn't that silly? Wanda: No, it's not silly. Matthew: Anyway, I got an aunt, two aunts, that—that—they're real Indian, y’know. And, but she—she looks like, like, like one o’ them. Aunt Lou, she's dead now. You see my, my grandfather William—now they're talking about the Roots,⁺ y’know. There's one of my cousins—I guess at the same time this guy started Roots—and he lives down in Jersey, so he came up and he, ah—his mother was my mother's sister. See? One of her sisters, she had five of ‘em. So he come up out of New York and he says, "Matt," he says, "What—ah—what—name some of the people." Well, he tried to find—so I named him some and he says—ah—he wanted to get 'em. Now, my mother's father, he came from England, and his people—cut him off, because they called him the black sheep. He—he was one of an Englishman that wanted to get out and come here and have, do things, y’know. Of course they had a—crockery ware. And, ah—his name—their names were Webb. His name was William Webb. Wanda: They had a crock—crockery? Matthew: Well—they had a—a—crock—like, like crockery wares, y’know, dishes and things like that. Wanda: Umhmm. Matthew: They have a—either wholesale, or they manufacture them. I don't know what it was. Mother used to tell it, y’know. And, ah—so—I—ah—their names were Webb. They were William Webb’s. Big tall man—he had this long mustache. He looked like those, ah—colonels that they have in England, y’know, those—ah, yeah, like that. [Laughs at the suggestion of a monocle.] And so they, they, they threw him. He—he said he didn't care whether he saw them anymore or not, because he came to this country and he turned out to be a carpenter, y’know. He liked that trade. And he must’ve learned when he was young and he grew up to be a—a good carpenter, and he, ah—oh, ah—came home and told my grandmother, one night, Mother said, that he thought he fell off the scaffold where he was workin', y’know? No, not him—the fellow that was his partner—fell off the scaffold—and died. And she said it was two weeks after that—that he fell off the scaffold, and when he went down he hit his back on—on one of those tombstones, y’know? And, and he died. Broke his back. Now maybe—these days they mighta been able to do something for him, y’know? He died. Well now, he left a son, my mother's brother. And he was a handsome guy, Junie. Tall and he looked just like his dad, y’know. And, ah—he, ah—was a fireman. Years ago, y’know, they didn't tell, they couldn't tell for sure who was—y’know—what he was, see? He was an Englishman, that's all. Ah, and my uncle, y’know, I wish I had some o’ those pictures to show you, he was a handsome man, And, ah, so that's how I got mixed up. So my—they—they got some, ah—some stuff in this tree. But I think they got it mixed up with an oak tree, or something, but anyway—they couldn't put some of the limbs back. So—that's some of those things that went around, y’know, and now to show you what a nice job—a different job I had—ah—I—you know—prejudice is an awful thing. You know, they had the medical depot up here— Wanda: Yeah.  Matthew: You know where that was? Wanda: Umhmm.  Matthew: OK. A man downtown that's supposed to hire you and send you there. Regardless, see. It was a government job. So I went up there two or three times and I filled an application out and he says, ah, "I'll let you know in—in a week." A week'd go by, and I'd get up there and I'd go up and I'd see him sittin' right in the office there. And, he was up in the, ah—now let's see if I can get this filled in right where he was. I think it was in the, ah—the—the building on, on Chenango Street where the, ah—the first, ah—Union—I mean, ah—not Union, but, ah—ya had to pay your taxes—where the taxes were—in that old—in that building where—where the, ah—gas company was, see? Over there. Well, anyway—no. It was across the street, where the—where the loan place is. They opened that up for government work, y’know. At the time, y’know? Right across? Well anyway, I got tired of being run around. So, I knew a girl that was a typist down there and I said to her, "Hey look, I made a mistake on my, ah”—you know, ah— Wanda: Application? Matthew: “Application.” I said, "Can I have a couple of them? Better give me two so if I won't make a mistake." Says, "OK," so she gave me two. I took them home that night. I'm married, too, now, you know. And I wrote on it. Filled them out. Front and back. And the next morning I says, "I'm going up there." So I went up, and you had to have a—ah—notice from his office before you could—y’know, they had everything guarded and you had to have it to get in. So I happened to go up to the picket. It was easy, y’know, and I'm walking around, and I walked up there "biggie" like—I thought I was gonna get throwed out, see, but anyway, I walked up there that morning, y’know. And so I says, "Hi, fellas," so he says, "What fella?"  I says, "Hi, Frank." He says, "Hiya, Matt. What are you doin' up here?" I says, "Well, I come up to go to work, but I just have a paper like that, y’know. Goin' to see if I can get a job up here and go to work." And, ah—he didn't even look at me, y’know. He says, "Go ahead," So I went in. So here was a little Frenchman. Up on the steps in the Administration Building. And, ah—he come up there and he says, "Can I help you?" I says, "I'm lookin' for a job, and I have my papers." He says, "You have?" And I says, "Yeah." "Well, what do you do?" And I says, "Here's my application." So down in there it says, ah—freelance photographer and experience in, ah—printing and developing and so forth, y’know?  "Ahh—just the man I want. I need a photographer," he says. "You gonna get a job."  I says, "Why?" He took me right in, you know, and he says, ah, “We got nothin' here, but we'll take care of ya." And I happened to have about seventeen hundred dollars worth of equipment, you know, of my own, see? And he says, ah, “Maybe you can't do no work right now,” but he says, "We—we can fix some way." So what I had to do, the first thing, was to take the pictures of—ah—thirty-six hundred people that worked there, y’know. That the—ah—numbers and everything. And I had a camera that could do that, y’know. And I brought it up. So that, and I had this—two bulbs that—hundred-watt bulbs, you know—put 'em there and I made a frame. Everybody'd sit there and I was workin' and I was developing them—every night. So the next morning I could have a string with the numbers on, see, that I took, And I got through with that, so—they finally sent down a couple of things and got my stuff in a truck, see? Brought it up. And this guy comes in there one day and he says, "What are you doin' here?"  I says, "Me?" I didn't know anything. "Me?" He says "Yeah." Says "I'm workin' here." "What are ya doin'?" I says, "I'm takin’ all the photographs here. Big ones and little ones." "Why, how'd you get that job?" I says, "Just on account of you not puttin' me through." I said, "I've got what it takes to do the job and the Frenchman is not prejudiced." And I says, "Right away, he was lookin' for me but I didn't know it," I said. "Where the hell did you get the papers?"  I says, "I stole 'em up there one day." I says, "I'm workin' now. What are you gonna do about it? I work for Uncle Sam and you can't fire me—for nothing—if I'm handy an’ I'm workin’ for Uncle Sam. I got the job—signed up," I says, "You're outta luck."  Wanda: This was government work, right? Matthew: Heh? Wanda: It was government work? Matthew: Yeah. And, ah—I had to fill the application and everything, y’know. If you work for the government, you've got five or six people that don't like you. They're trying to get rid of you. They do everything—they can't do it. You gotta come to a—you know—a court hearing to find out why. They can't just say, "Oh, kick him outta here." That's one thing about government work, you know. You've got to have a real good reason. Wanda: Civil Service. Matthew: Yeah, and I was so mad—y’know—I used to box and wrassle, see. It was so hard for me to keep off that guy, you know. And, and I didn't want to spoil it because I'm gonna beat him up, then you know, they—[laughter]. So I had to take that for a while, and so every time he'd come back—so the Colonel says to me, Colonel Dowitz, his name was, ah—and he says, "Matt," he says, "Tell ya something," he says, ah, "We haven't got the room that—that—ah—you want, but," he says, "here's a place you can fix up." He says, "I'll get the carpenters sent over." A carpenter come—"Whadda you want?" I had two big, big—I didn't need all the rooms. I had two rooms—as big as these two together, more there, and then the Monolith machine, y’know. Did you ever see them? Wanda: No. Matthew: Well they're, ah—they're machines that you work that, that run a lot of paper like a mimeograph machine. Wanda: What did you call it? Matthew: Monolith. Then, and, and so I made even plates for that. And, and, they had a big machine in there, that they—you know, you go downtown and they have, ah—records made of some papers. Years ago it cost 'em eighteen hundred dollars for the machine, you know, and I learned to work that. Wanda: Photostat machine? Matthew: Photostat machine. Wanda: I used to run one of those. Matthew: Did ya? How d’you like those things? Well, I'll tell ya, well, this, this one, I think it was eighteen hundred dollars or something like that one, and I got out on—this guy came down one day and he says, "Whaddya doin'? Now." I says, "I'm makin’ some—photostats." "Where'd you learn?" I said, "Look, Mister," I said, "I can't tell you all the colleges I've finished—" And I used to “bull” him until—[laughter]—he believed everything that I'd tell him. After that, you know. I said, "I can't begin to tell you how many colleges I went through—for this stuff." And ah—at the time, these were really the best of the things that I liked in my life. And I took pictures of my kids all the time, I had a little fella that big. His mother dressed him up nice one Sunday, so I says—he's my big son, one of my big sons now—he says, ah—I says, "Hey, Louie," I says, "Let Daddy put you on the table." Every Sunday I was takin' pictures like that. I got a lot of 'em in a box that my daughter's got—so—they wouldn't get lost, you see? Because—I had some kids break in my house—one time, and all the beautiful pictures I had—of street-cars—and everything—from way back—they just—gouged them all on the floor, you know. Well anyway, I says, "Daddy'll give you two cents for a picture."  “All right.” So he stood with his hands behind him, one foot out, you know, lookin' nice. I took one and I says, ah, "Well, now Daddy'll take another one," I says, ah, "because maybe that'll be good." "Daddy—two pennies? Two pennies?" That little rascal—he was six years old, and yet—he was toutin' me. Not ready for school yet, anyway, but, and he's tellin' me, "Two pennies, Daddy. Two pennies." [laughter] Sorry. I said even if he was panning—he was usin' his brains all the time, y’know, just like his father. Wanda: Did you—you do much landscape photography or scenic stuff, too? Matthew: Yes. I did a lot. I—I—wish't I—let's see—I—I—I've got everything put away, but I've got, ah—slides, you know. Wanda: Oh, we, we can go into that some other time. Matthew: Some other time. Yeah, I'll get some out then. That's all my daughter Charlotte and I'd do, we—ah—we went, ah, around every, ah—day that we had off, and we’d go and then there was one of the Foster grandmothers, she likes being out in the woods in the country, so we'd take her and a friend of hers, and she says—in the summer, ah—two years ago she says, "Matt," she says, "Beautiful day out," and I said, "Yeah," I says, ah, “We get out at twelve o'clock, y’know," I says. "Well, let's go down and get a hunk of bread and a baloney," and I said "We'll go out—I'll take pictures." And I took a lot of pictures. Oh, I—old broken-down barns, y’know, with the humpbacks. One of 'em fell down and, and I knew it was an old barn and I could see the pegs were in there holding it up—the—beams about that big, y’know, and, and all these years—it was over a hundred years old. And I had a feeling. "Matt," I says, "that's only about a hundred twelve—fourteen years old.” And—and there was no bolts in it. A great big barn, put up there with these—ah—pegs, wooden pegs, y’know. Wanda: Wooden pegs. Amazing. Matthew: Umhmm. And then I've got pictures of old folks, y’know. I'll pick out some slides, and then I'll let ya know and then you can come in and— Wanda: I'd love to. Mr. Newcomb is interested in—in seeing some of your— Matthew: But. That's all I'd do. You know I—did—oh, I'd spend a lot of money with different ones who didn't have nothin' to do and they had a car. Five, six dollars worth of gas and we'd ride, and then, ah—she used to say to me, "Where'll we go today, Matt?" And I says, "Just—just get goin'." And we'll stop and get this an’ that an’ the other, and then we'd come back here and it would be very, very—why, it would be night, y’know? And here I'd go down. I'd go north, here, and what do I see? The sun is shining on this side, see? And then I take all the pictures, on this side the river, we'll say, going all the way up to—to—ah—oh—ah—Oxford, there. Up that way. Now, in the afternoon, to get—I'd cross over and come down the other side, and the sun is in the west—start in on that side. And that's what I had to do. So I went in—the morning—and we'd go up and up until about two o'clock, anyway, and go one side and take, and then, then we would always go on the old roads—on the back roads, you know. Oh, I enjoyed that. We got fooled one time. I'll show you, maybe, someday. All right. I went to a place up—above Oxford, there—where they had a civilian camp, you know. And they had this fireplace which was wide as that machine [the stereo] and it went up like that, and off the ground was that big, where they had the fireplace, y’know. And, ah—they had great big stones, they were stones about that big and they were cemented in and there was nothin' but the chimneys left—with the fireplace in there. All the rest of the buildings had been cleared away. And I says, "Gee, I've run into something." I—got a lot of slides, y’know, and I came home and I had 'em finished up. Because I don't do that 35mm stuff, y’know. Not now. And, ah—so I had 'em all done, y’know, and I said, "Gee, I've gotta get the history of this." And—everything was gone, you know. It looked—and everybody said, "Where'd you ever get this? Gee, where'd you get this?"  I said "Oh, I don't know—it's some place George Washington fooled around in." I says, ah, "It's upstate here.” So—one of the guys—I went up there one day. I was deer hunting, y’know, and I went up there to see him and ask him if he wanted to go out and take me someplace. And I says, "By the way," I says, ah, "There's two big chimneys here, and,” I says, “a big fireplace." I says, "Boy, that must be over a hundred years old." He says "Huh?" He says, "Whadda you mean?" So I told him where. "Ah, man," he says, "Boys put that up during the Depression.” Wh—when they had the civilians, you know, had the boys planting trees. Wanda: C.C.C.? Matthew: Yeah. [laughter]. I says, "Boy!" But you see the hundred in, ah—ah, Latin, isn't it? Wanda: Yeah. Yeah. Matthew: So CCC would be three hundred years old. Wanda: Makes a good story, anyway. Matthew: Yeah. Well, I was excited. Wanda: Well, of course. Matthew: I says, "They must have—baked people in there when they got bad or somethin’.” So I was—the fireplace was—this long, you know, and then the chimney came way out and up like that, and out of this side—it was huge chimneys, y’know. But, but they, ah, wasn't built right down low, it was built up about that high. You know, with a fireplace you'd freeze to death. Y'ever been in a house that had a fireplace—years ago? Wanda: Yes. Matthew: OK. When I was in Jersey, my aunt had a house, so—one at a time we'd stand up there or sit up there—and your face burns up, y’know, and here and your back is—freezing. You turn around, put your back to it an’ you freeze your face. [laughs]. You know, I used to think, "Gee whizz.” I never have been in one before, y’know, but down there, they lived out in the country when I went to visit. Well, up here we always had stoves and ranges, and my aunt—"Well, Aunt Maria," I says, "How do you keep warm all around?"  She says "You keep turning around." I liked that place because they, they had a—ah, well, there was a kind of canal—nearby. About as far as from here—oh—halfway down the building, y’know. And ah—high w—the water come in there when the tide raised, y’know, from the ocean. And we could catch crabs in there at night— Wanda: Oh my. Matthew: —and—turtles that big, see. So one night we—ah—we heard ducks. Ducks are crazy, you know, they—on moonlit nights they, they walk all night long catching frogs and things, y’know. Wanda: I didn't know that. Matthew: Ducks, you can find ducks, ah—walkin’ around, you know, at night. And the lawn went down, sloped down to the river. So one night we heard, "Quack, quack, quack, quack." And I got up an’ looked out and there was a turtle—almost, about big around as a basket, there, ah, you know— Wanda: Bushel basket? Matthew: About that high, and he had this duck backin' and drivin' and the duck was just— [END OF TAPE. They caught the turtle and made steaks of it.] [BEGINNING OF TAPE #2] [Mr. Alston brought out some of his photographic equipment, and he and Wanda spent some time inspecting cameras, lenses, etc.] Wanda: This is your Speed—Graphic? Matthew: Yes. Wanda: B. and J. Press—that's an oldie. Matthew: Yeah. See, I can use this because I've got, ah—whaddya call it, plates. Ah—I ran that off the track. Wanda: Just let me look at it. Matthew: It's heavy. Wanda: Yes it is. Kalart? —Matic Rangefinder. That's a classic, isn't it? Matthew: Oh, it is. Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: And I got the lenses upstairs. You know, I never get—I can start talkin’ on cameras and I can spend a whole week.  Wanda: You never get tired of them. Matthew: No. Wanda: It's like some people like to play with cars. Matthew: Yeah. And there's a lens that's two hundred and fifty dollars, just for the lens. Wanda: Projection? Matthew: We can use that on—on a camera, too. See these lens boards they made? The—they're supposed to hold a 16mm Kodak. Oh, I've got three or four of these around. But you see, unless you can sell them to somebody that's got a camera like this, they're no good. Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: And it's better to use these now and then. Wanda: Oh, it is? Matthew: Oh yes. Because they, they get tired, y’know. I've got a few pictures here, I picked up when I took— Can you get it on? Wanda: No. Matthew: Well, pull it right out. Wanda: It's off the, the track. Matthew: Put it way back in there. Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: Now see if we can get it on the track. Leaning a little bit—easy—wait a minute. Now pull that in there—are they on the track? Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: There you are, now, y’see? That's a little extension bellows on there. And a lock there, see. Now— Wanda: Oh yeah. Matthew: That's—bring it all the way out, y’see? Wanda: And you could use these for copy work and everything. Matthew: Oh yes. And you see, you get the same size—as your picture, when you copied. I like to copy a lot, but now—you know—I never— And so then you take this and you lock it, see? Then it goes through, wait a minute, then this, then this. And there's a back on this, see? And, ah—this? See how it goes? Wanda: That's a beauty. Matthew: Umhmm. Wanda: Do you have a darkroom now? Matthew: Well—I make one out of the bathroom. I have a table to fit over my—a toilet bowl with legs on the side, and then it goes right across the wash basin, so it, ah—it comes in quite handy and I've got everything—that I need in there. Wanda: You can do a lot with a little space, can't you? Matthew: Oh yes. Wanda: What are your pictures there? Matthew: Here are some, ah—here's a couple o’ my, my daughters up at the park. Wanda: Nice. Matthew: And this is down at the old State Armory—ah, you know, the one on Washington Street at the time? Wanda: Oh—oh yes. Matthew: And this is Derek—that's my son. He looks just like that—you know—he was just that size when he said, "Two cents, please." Wanda: That's a cute little thing. Matthew: This picture I took up in Syracuse, it's a—one of the buildings there. Wanda: You said you had one of the last horse-drawn trolleys? Matthew: Here's three of my kids— Yeah, with the horses. I went down—I haven't got it there now, but I went down to a—I didn't go to the Traction Company. I went down where the—Exchange on Court Street, and they said all those pictures—somebody took 'em. Change the office, there you know—I gotta go down there and see. He said some of the guys, you know, put out word to see if I could get one for you. Wanda: Oh. Matthew: See, they've changed, that's—this is a— Wanda: How come people are so careless with things like that? Matthew: Yeah. This. Another one. And there's a—let's see. See, I took pictures of the kids all the time. Every time I'd turn around I had a picture of them. Now there's another one. Here's a pic—you want to got down to—oh—ah—oh, you know the one. Let's see what it says here. Wanda: The Speedex? Matthew: These, I just happened to grab while I was upstairs here. Wanda: Ah, I wonder if— Matthew: See, I did all these—I finished all these myself.  Wanda: Yeah. Well, how did you get your—job that you told me about? Working with the insurance company and the— Matthew: Well, I don't know, I got it. Every time I went downtown, you know when I go now, I gotta—one of those cases, y’know? Wanda: Like this? Matthew: No, not that thing. Oh ,it's like—like on the davenport, I guess. Well, anyway, I'll show it to ya. I—I'd go down and everybody took me for a veterinarian or a doctor, and honestly— Wanda: Because of your camera case? Matthew: Yeah, ‘cause I had it in my hand, see. And I had one guy, says, "You know, I see you all the time with that thing." It was never away from me. I always had it—in case of accidents and things, y’know. And he says, ah, "You always got it there. I thought you were some kind of a doctor or maybe a veterinarian." He wouldn't say a medical doctor, he had to put me in a vet—with the horses. Hah. So that's what you had to put up with, see? I'm not good enough to be a medical doctor, but I, I could work on horses. Ahah? Well, people are funny. I, it don't bother me, I get a kick out of it, things people say. And there's two ways to focus this, you see? Now you put that on a tripod, you see the footage here? And then, see this little marker? Right there? Oh, right here. Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: You wind it up there—focus—like that—without takin' it out. Wanda: Hmm. Did you have any connection with Ansco? Ever—did you do any work for them? Matthew: The only thing I did for them, I taught some of their workers how to enlarge or develop. Wanda: Hmm. Matthew: They came to me—it was just a short course of about a—maybe six weeks. One—one or two nights a week if you wanted to come. You see, to fill out an application there it says, ah, to get in this department—ah—“Did you ever have any experience in, a—enlarging or copying,” something, and "No." So they'd come to me and they get the experience, then they go back and fill out the application, they get the job. So I go down—after I'd been doin' it for quite a while, and I apply for a job with the office there. Got talkin'. And I told him, I says, "You know I—helped a lot of your—your workers out.” He says, "You're the man." I says, "Yeah." He says, "Well, gee, ya—did a good job on it."  I says, "Well, now I wonder if there's any place for me down here?" I says, "I've done most anything in that line." "Oh no," he told me. "How old are ya?" I says I was about 45, 50, ya know. He says, "Well," he says, "you're beyond the age. We don't take men over 35." There's always an excuse. I says, "I know a lot,” but he says I'm too old now. Y’know. Well, he says, "We—we might let you know," he says. "Anyway," he says, "You're willing to work?" He says, "There's a lotta room in the warehouse." I says, "Whaddya do?"  "Oh—move racks around and, you know—and sweep or—sweep up the place."  I said, "Go to hell, will ya?" I said, "I know more about this than half of your guys in here," and I says, "You want me to sweep?" I said, "I don't, don't do that for nobody." Wanda: Rug beater. Matthew: Yeah, sweep up—oh boy. Wanda: How can you laugh about things like that? Matthew: Huh? Wanda: How can you laugh? Matthew: Because it's funny. I go there, y’know, like anybody else, and then they give me that stuff, but—but they seem to, they seem to learn something. You see, now, in the Army—they had a little place up there—“If of African descent, tear this off." Nothing on the other three sides. That's to classify you. Without any trouble, see. So I left mine on. And I had trouble—tryin' to—get back to bein' a colored guy again. [laughter.] I didn't tear it off, see? That's a fact, see. Now my boys, they, they never had that. They're light, most of them, y’know. They're like their mother, y’know? And, ah—well, you see the youngsters here. So we never had much trouble in the family. But I'm telling you—my time comin' up, they was tough. Born in 1892, so you know, that's close to the Civil War finishing, and then the Spanish-American War come in, y’know, the Japanese war—years ago, see. And—I mean the Philippines—years ago—in the United States, and as I say, that just went on. When I first went in the Army—they had a—unit for colored boys. You know, I say “colored” because, ah—the Black man that's as black as—? An’ like that, that's all right for him—he's a Black man. But if he had—if he wasn't color-blind—there's all colors. Red, yellow, blue, green, orange. Wanda: That's right. Matthew: So—I—I—I just resent it when somebody says I'm a Black man. I says, "You're color-blind." "Whaddya mean?" I says, "Don't try to supply me with a Black man.” I says, "You call me ‘colored,’ and like it." "I see your point." I said, "Yeah, well, see my point," I says. "Just be a little, you know, ah, decent with these guys." Says, "You don't want to—?” I says, "I've known that since I was born," but I says, "Don't try to classify me like this, 'cause,” I said, "That guy, he's Black and he wants to beauti—he wants Black to be beautiful." I said "OK," I said, "If I was Black, OK, but," I said, "I'm not black." And I says, "What color are you?" And he says, "Well," he says, "you can see." I says, "Yeah. You're a white man, but do you know you're white?" I says, "You didn't follow your dad around, or your grandfather? You don't know what little Black sister you've got, or little Black brother you've got, somewhere in the world." I says, "Now, don't be so—quick to jump up and call somebody what they are." I says, "Look—I know a lot of people—that passes for white—nice people. And I don't blame them because you get a better—opportunity, see?" And I says, ah, "Your father and mother told you was a white boy. You're gonna remember that. And that's what you're gonna be, see? Nothin' against you, but,” I said, "a colored boy is born, they tell him he's a colored boy. So he knows that, and everybody else." So I said, "Whenever they—they mix them up so that you can't tell a white boy from a colored boy," I says, "then it's come time for you to go and study something, because you—you don't know who you look like, for an instance—that are runnin’ around this country." Some of 'em get mad and some of 'em don't, but I don't care. They don't want to belittle me, you know what I mean? God made me and He made them, and He chooses to make me different than them—that's why He give me a brain—I'm gonna use it. And that's whether you're white or Black, I don't give a darn. See I—I've got—look, I'm invited now into a party—or not a party, but a wedding—of a—white girl. Very nice, and ah—she's gonna get married in St. Paul's church on the eleventh. And I'm invited and I'm taking—Suzanne with me, and then the reception, it should be in—well—up in Chenango Bridge, I think they said. Wanda: Oh, the Country Club. Matthew: Yeah. And I'm always in places like that. Now when I was a kid, the firemen would have a—a dance. The colored guys—”Now—? They don't want you there." I says, "Look, you know a lotta people there. You know some firemen there." I says, “All right, get a ticket an’ go." My wife and I went to everything and there was no—as I said, it depends on who you are and that, you know. But you don't want to be timid. You know what I mean? Because there's somebody knows you there and you're gonna enjoy—yourself, see? So I'd buy a ticket and, ah—bought a ticket to the Italian, ah—the dance they used to give down to the Knickerbocker Hall. You don't remember that—that's down on the first—you know where Henry Street, way down towards the river? Wanda: Yeah.  Matthew: Well, you know that building right next to it—Knickerbocker? They tore that down now, see? Well, anyway—ah—these Italians—I used to have two or three Italian friends, and they hired the hall. So this one fella—Joseph—he, he had a girlfriend and she had a sister, and we were all in school together—so he says, ah, "C'mon, Matt."  So I says, "Sure." I wasn't married then, see. Well, I was a real Indian. I had paint on my face and I had a big Indian outfit, a—you know—ah—big feathers? And I had, ah—pants—you know—buckskin with fringe on like that, an’ moccasins? And I used to do an Indian war dance, so they—they—ah—we waltzed and waltzed and danced together, an’ I danced with everybody. They don't, they don't know me—I got war paint on, see, and Joe, he was a—oh, a—a warrior and I was the chief. His girlfriend was a—was a squaw, and this sister and I—she was Columbia—you know, dressed like Columbia, like that. So after the dance and the grand march was over, they took me aside, and Joe and the two girls, and we had to waltz around and then they took ya outta the bunch, y’know, and there was this guy up there, you see. [Impersonating an Italian accent] "I tell you," he says, "Indian man. Big-a Chief. He's-a got-a first-a prize for men. Little-a papoose, he's got a, he's got a, for a papoose he's got a, got a prize. He's—a girl, he's-a call um a squaw and she's got a prize, a second-a, and the Chief, his-a wife, she's got a nice-a prize." So everybody took off their masks. Says, “An’ everybody, now, take-a mask off, please." So I just kept a, I kept my bonnet on, y’know, and I didn't, ah, or didn't wipe my face off too good, and then after the first few—I wiped it off good and he says, "Aw look. Attsa nice-a boy," he says, “I know that's-a Matt-chew—a-Matt-chew." And everybody went, "Look!" and I got—they wanted to know how I disguised myself, y’know? So I got a—I got a shaving kit and a mirror off here and a stem down here and a base, and it had on here—a cup for—you know at that time we used that— Wanda: —Oh, shaving cream with a brush— Matthew: —a brush. I hated to fool them, but that was the only time it ever happened, and the firemen—they had a hall, and it got so everybody knew us, you know, when we went down. And the funny part—we used to waltz, see, they had waltzes on. They had prizes and like that. My wife says, "I know that man. I'll tell you why," she says, "Hey, would you look at that shirt? The poor man needs a button."  I said, "People are human," I says, "so—the farther you stay away from them the less they know about you." But I said, "You mingle with them and be around them, they come to know you. And if you're different than the other ones," I says. "Everybody has got to have fun," I says. “They sell me their tickets, and," I says, "I'd sue 'em if they didn't let me go up there and dance." Well, that's how we had our fun. My kids are the same. Wanda: You have a wonderful outlook on life. Matthew: Well—I have to have it if I'm going to be happy. And now I go to work, you know what I mean? They say, "How—how do you get along, going like that?" I says, "Look," I says, "I let the day take care of itself. Tomorrow I don't know what's gonna happen. When it comes, then I know what to do.” I says, "Why should I worry about what's gonna happen tomorrow?" I says, "So that's the way to do it," I says. "You don't have to do what I do, but," I says, "that's the way I figure it out." And that's a fact, because you don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. You know today. Wanda: Thank heaven.  Matthew: [Laughter]. Wanda: Do you work with children all the time up at B.O.C.E.S.? Matthew: Yeah, I do want to tell ya. Instead of taking my vacation—I go up to the, ah—other place up there—to the Broome Developmental—those little ones up there, and they're—there’re some mongoloids up there and then there's a lot of, ah—deformed kids. They're all in wheelchairs. There's six hundred altogether—some young ones and up, old ones up to twenty years old there. They live there and they take a certain bus, go to—they're active and they can, ah, understand. They bring them up to school in buses, to B.O.C.E.S.—different grades. Wanda: And what do you teach them? Matthew: Well—the teachers up there, women, they teach, ah—ah, the little ones, ah—oh, ah—how to read and write and so forth, y’know. And once in a while we jump in if—they've got a few that we help out, that it's a little too hard for them, y’know. Bring 'em up and then, ah, we don't teach 'em a full course, y’know, but we teach them crafts. Something they can do with their hands, you know. And like—ah—I teach them to, ah—braid, you know, pocketbooks. [Matthew shows a hand-made wallet.] Wanda: Oh. Somebody did this for you, huh? Matthew: Yep. And, ah—they got spaces in there, you know, inside for the, oh—ah—well, you know—stuff there. And I, quite often the—I got the one there—the doctor—I gotta go to him tomorrow. Every now and then, when I get examined, see, I go to a regular doctor. I have to go to be examined now. After—tonight, after eleven o'clock you don't eat, and tomorrow morning you fast, and I go there and then they—draw the blood, y’know, and analyze that and then he tells me—he gives me a cup of coffee, ah—tells me to go ahead and— Wanda: Where do you find a doctor like that? Matthew: They do—down there, though, the girls. And he says, ah, and he says, "Well, go home and eat a—eat a horse!" He's a nice doctor. Doctor, ah—Grinberg. Wanda: Oh. Matthew: You know him? He's the best doctor in the world. Wanda: I would love to go to him. Matthew: He's nice. He's just like a brother since he's known me. He just pulled me through a—a bad sickness I had one time. So, ah—I fish and I bring him a fish like that, and I bring him squirrels and rabbits and things, y’know. I hunt a little bit, now. The boy does most of the heavy hunting. I, I just go to the—to the places that are close by, y’know. Wanda: Your family's around here, are they? Matthew: Well, not everybody. I, I've got a daughter in Michigan and I've got one in—in, ah, Dayton, Ohio, and I've got one in Chicago. I've got one in, ah—Los Angeles, and I have—how many's that make, four? Wanda: Yes. Matthew: And then I have two here. I have Peggy and Suzanne here. And then I've got a girl that's in—you know the grandchildren in—eleven, eleventy dozen grandchildren. [Laughter.] Wanda: Has this been home all your life? Matthew: Oh yes. It's, ah—since I was little. I came up from Jersey. Wanda: Oh. Matthew: When I was about nine years old. Yes. I like Binghamton. I—I knew most everybody here, and when they go fishing, you know, they—my son-in-law says to me one time—Jack is a, is, ah, is, ah, my son-in-law. He went fishing up to Afton. I know every place from here to Canada, you know? And he says to me, "Hey," he says, ah, "Dad," he says, ah, "I wish we could get up there where Jack was last week."  I says, "Where?" He says, "Up to Afton." I says, "What part?" He says, "I don't know, but," he says, "we crossed a bridge," and he says, ah, "I don't know, we went down by the bridge and got a boat." And I said, "Was it an old bridge or a new bridge?" And he says "A modern bridge." So we got in the car that time, you know, started, y’know. And he, ah, we got up to Afton. We crossed the bridge and I look down and I says, ah—ah, I says, "Is this the bridge you crossed?" "Yep." And I looked down to the end, and I looked down and I saw there was about ten or twelve PepsiCo bottles. He says, "That's the place! That's the place! You know how Jack is always drinkin’—big quarts, quarts of Pepsi-Cola." And there were all these bottles. So we went down and we caught fish. Went back and told Jack. And he says, "Jesus, can't get away from him." I says, "I know," I says, "I’ve fished every foot of this pond since I'm about seventeen years old." But, that's the way my, my wife and, and Johnny and his wife and Leo Payne and his wife—used to—travel together, you know? And, ah, they'd leave on Sunday. I said, "Oh, I don't think I'll go." And later on my wife says, "Let, let's go fishin'." I says, "For part of the day." So the first thing I'll say, ah, "Well, where would they go today?" "I don't know." So we go up to Afton. We go two places there, we don't see 'em. We go back, go to Whitney Point. We don't see ‘em there. So we finally go on up around Oxford and we come down. Every place we ever fished. And I find them—Whitney Point. They gotta be one of those places. [Laughter.] Wanda: Good a way as any, isn't it? Matthew: Oh yes—umhmm. But as I said, I know, I know Binghamton—way, way back.  Wanda: I think if, if you'd like, we could do this again, could we? Matthew: Anytime, sure. Wanda: I'm so grateful for the interview you've given. Matthew: Oh, I've enjoyed your company too. We had a lot of fun. We relaxed and— Wanda: You bet. Matthew: I'm not crazy, I'm just silly. [Laughter.] *[Correction: Professor Palze was the violin teacher.] ⁺ [Roots by Alex Haley.] [The introduction to this interview was accidentally erased. The subject is Matthew Alston, residing at 150 Moeller Street, Binghamton, NY.] Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Matthew Alston Subject The topic of the resource Alston, Matthew -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Musicians -- Interviews; Orchestra; Jazz; Photographers; Discrimination; Arlington Hotel; Bennett Hotel Description An account of the resource Matthew Alston discusses his early interest in the violin and creating a small orchestra after returning home from World War I and then later a Dixie Jazz Band. He details how he became interested in photography, his first camera, which was a Colony, one of Ansco's first cameras and how it came into his possession. He discusses taking a correspondence course for photography. He speaks of taking photographs of Willis Kilmer's race horse, for the local newspaper, being hired by the government as a photographer, and taking photographs of buildings and landscapes in his free time. He talks about his photography equipment and film processing. He discusses his ancestors and family and the prejudice he suffered. He talks briefly about his work with handicapped children. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 65A ; Recording 65B ; Recording 65C Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alston, Matthew ; Wood, Wanda Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-30 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 33:09 Minutes ; 12:25 Minutes ; 33:29 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/21aba41edbd6083cdabbd1e9de35a5f7.mp3 6dc71747fd45b780b50d04ec13a399d6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. 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The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Johnson, Harmon; Johnson, Harold Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wood, Wanda Date of Interview 1978-01-31 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:31 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55954">Interview with Harmon and Harold Johnson</a> Subject LCSH Johnson, Harmon -- Interviews; Johnson, Harold -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Aeronautics; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Link, Edwin A. (Edwin Albert), 1904-1981; Airplanes; Air pilots -- Interviews; Link Aviation; Chenango Bridge Airport Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Harmon and Harold Johnson Interviewed by: Wanda Wood Date of interview: 31 January 1978 Wanda: This is Wanda Wood interviewing Harmon and Harold Johnson on Airport Road in Chenango Bridge, and the date is the thirty-first of January, 1978. Now, you Johnson brothers have operated the Chenango Bridge Airport since the mid-thirties, and we'd like to know a little something about the history of the operation or any remembrances that you have which you'd like to put down on this tape. So who wants to start first? Harmon: I'll say that I got the flying bug in about 1930. I went for a ride in a an old Tri-motor Ford at the old Bennett Airport, and from then on decided flying was for me and a I saved my money and in 1932 learned to fly with Ed Link at the old Bennett Airport. He had a school there, I soloed out in about the first of May and got a private license in June. At that time it only took ten hours to get a license and the inspector never rode with you. He stood on the ground and watched you. I think he was afraid to ride with you. We didn't have that much time. Wanda: [laughter] That's funny. Harmon: Ah, only a joke, I guess, but, ah…they didn't ride with you. They stood on the ground and watched you. After that I flew along with Ed's airplane and got a limited commercial license, and then a couple of years later Harold and I went—my brother and I went in together and bought an airplane, and we brought it up to the Chenango Bridge Airport. There we carried a lot of passengers. Everybody wanted to ride, and we'd take 'em. I guess a dollar a head. Two at a time. They had the Italian field day over here at the old airport and when they had that these people would come from all over—like a big fair. We'd carry a lot of people—just ride around the field. Wanda: Italian field day here, at this airport? Harmon: Yeah. Umhmm. Harold: They'd have them across the river sometimes, too— Harmon: After that. Harold: —in the pasture there. It was like an island over there they used to have. Wanda: So then, Harold. You started to…fly? Harold: Yeah, I learned to fly on the old American Eagle biplane that we bought together in partnership. My dad helped us out. We didn't have money enough to buy it, so we—the three of us went in. Gave him his money back when we sold it. Harmon: Well I'd say this. We paid $600.00 for it, which was a lot of money then. Harold: I'd forgotten what we paid for it. Harmon: $600.00. Two hundred apiece. Harold: I learned to fly in that and soloed it, and took a private flight test. And I—the inspector came in to Endicott and I went down to take the flight test on that airplane to get a private license and I came in and he was riding with me. He thought I was too high to shoot for a spot-landing on the airport. He grabbed it away from me and slipped it. And I had to put the power right back on, and drag it in because it was gonna hit short of the field, you know. The inspector did that. I always remember that. He slipped it too much. It was down a hundred feet short of the end of the runway if I hadn't dragged it down, but he just laughed. He didn't say nothing. Gave me my license. I met that guy in Washington. Down there when I was flying in there for some—probably E.J. or somebody at Washington International Airport, and the guy came walking out and wanted to know if I was Johnson from Binghamton and talked with me for a while. He was one of the wheels in the F.A.A. at that time. Wanda: Oh, he went up the line. Harold: He's probably retired by now. Maybe he's dead, I don't know, but that was a good many years ago. I got the—I went about a year using a private license. I got the transport in ‘37. That was after we had our C-3 Aeronca. I took that to Ithaca for my transport license. Wanda: Oh yes, we want to put in here about some of the a—different planes that you've handled and owned and so forth here at Chenango Bridge. Harmon: We started out with the old Eagle and we sold that. Or Harold started out, actually—I'll take that back. After we sold the Eagle you bought the C-3 Aeronca,didn't you? Harold: The old Razorback. Harmon: On your own. I didn't have any money. Harold: That was about a 1930 or '31 model airplane. Harmon: And didn't have it any length of time at all and lost it in the fire over here—it burned up. Harold: Probably six months or something like that. Harmon: Yeah, we lost it. And then we went back together and Jesse Haskell, who was the owner of the airport, said, “If someone wants to fly, I'll build them a hangar.” So he knocked together a little 2x4 hangar out there—a cheap thing. Harold: For one airplane. Cheap. Harmon: For one little airplane. Wanda: Oh. Harmon: And nailed some contact supports together and that's—about what it was, a real cheap-built thing. And we started out then teaching students to fly on our C-3 Aeronca. Later on, we got the Aeronca dealership for the Aeronca K, which wasn't much of an airplane. And they changed over in a couple of years and came out with the Aeronca, what they called the Aeronca Chief, which was a good little airplane in its day. It was hard to beat. It was very comfortable riding, very quiet, and good performance for the horsepower that was on it. Wanda: And you paid how much for the first Aeronca Chief? Harmon: First Aeronca Chief was right around fifteen hundred—fifteen-fifty or something like that, if I recall. Wanda: And what are they now? Harmon: Today if that airplane was built, being built today, would be right around $10,000.00, just about. Wanda: Mmm. Harmon: Maybe even more than that. Maybe twelve? Wanda: So you had dealerships with the Aeronca and the—what's the other one? Harmon: Piper. Wanda: Piper. And then a—how about the students and the teaching part of it? You both were—have been instructors all this time. Harmon: Yes. We got commercial licenses that you have to have to have an instructor's rating and got our instructor's rating as we went along. And, uh, taught for many years. Seems like we always had about all the students we could carry. And I worked a lot of the time at another job, and was always kept pretty busy. Harold: Before we built that office building that's there now, we had a little shack out in back of there for an office. It had a phone in it and a little stove in it and a desk in it and Doris worked there. But we had appointments so far ahead that... There was so many students wanted to fly. You couldn't take care of them, you know. If you wanted a half-hour on a weekend you'd have to book it at least two weeks ahead. To get in a half-hour lesson. Harmon: And the weather was against us too, of course. We couldn't fly students when the weather was bad, and this really pushed them in together and— Harold: Them old airplanes was awful light, you know. You couldn't fly with very much wind with them, with a student. They flobbed around a lot. They was real light airplanes. Wanda: I want to say I admire you for flying with students anyway. There's a certain amount of risk involved there, isn't there? Harmon: Oh there's bound to be. Even if you don't get rattled, and stay with it while you're in trouble. Wanda: And this was mostly during, after the War that you were so busy? Harmon: Yes. Before the War and right up through the War and on beyond the end of it. And then as the economy—after the War everything let down, if you remember right, and— Harold: About '48 it started lettin'— Harmon: '48 it gradually went down. About '50 it was really bad and so I left. I couldn't make a living anymore and I left and went in industry and stayed there until I retired. And we ran the airport as a sideline after Harold left, about 1957 or '58. I continued on with three airplanes. Two Tri-pacers and an Aeronca Champ and it got too much for me. As I stayed and my duties got greater and greater and I got into supervision and I just couldn't handle so much. And I was getting older, too. So I sold one airplane after another and finally wound up with just one airplane that I've run now for the last ten or twelve years. And now I'm down to no students at all and my own airplane. I keep still, a lot of other people's airplanes. Still run the airplane, airport. Mow a lot of grass and plow an awful lot of snow—boy. For nothing, I guess. Wanda: And Harold, you, you tell a little about when you—a—flew for Endicott-Johnson. Harold: Yes. After things got quiet here, in order to help out, I, I flew for G.A.F. for about four or five years. That was just on a monthly retainer. I'd fly when they wanted me to. Sometimes I didn't hear from them for a month and then sometimes I'd make a trip to California and back with their airplane. They had two—a Beach Bonanza and a 180-Cessna. At other times they had Tri-pacers, different things I flew for them, but they kept those two for a long time. Then E.J.’s—Asa Dodge was the pilot for E.J.’s. Wanda: Asa Dodge? Harold: Yeah, and we knew him well—in fact I'd given him some dual years ago. And he was a—he'd been flying for several years for E.J.’s different airplanes. They bought a brand new Aero-Commander-680 with $20,000.00 worth of electronic gear in it. In them days, that was a lot. And they wanted to have two pilots. So I was, I left G.A.F. and went to work for them full time. Wanda: And you're a—are you teaching now at all? Harold: Hmm? Wanda: Are you teaching now at all? Harold: No. I haven't done any flying in ten years. Wanda: ls that a fact? Harmon: I've told him, "Hey, come around and fly my Tri-pacer,” but [he] don't want to do it. Harold: If I could afford a nice twin-engine airplane like a new Aztec or something like that for myself, and afford to operate it, I'd have one and fly it. Wanda: Yes. Harold: But, ah…I'm not much interested in flying little machines around locally. I did that too much. Many thousands of hours of it. Wanda: How many hours do you suppose you, both of you have got logged in this? Harold: I don't know. Got twenty-some thousand—I don't know what it was. Harmon: I have logged around ten-thousand and have flown probably many more than that I never logged. Wanda: Yes. Harmon: For years, I never bothered with log. Too much of a nuisance to make out a log book, I guess. At the end of the day you're tired out, 'n’ you go home…forget it. Harold: Yes, for the first ten-thousand I logged most all the time. Where if I didn't, my wife did it for me. She kept it up, you know.Then hit and miss. When I'd work for E.J.’s we had to—we had time to go to the airplanes, and the same way with G.A.F., they had to have the time, you know, but just—flyin' over here and half the time I didn't bother to log it. Wanda: And, and you've always done your, your own maintenance on these planes? Harmon: Pretty much, yes. Harold: When we weren't flying in the wintertime that's how we got by. We used to build airplanes for other people. We used to build wrecks, and overhaul the engines, fix our own up too, during the wintertime get 'em ready for to keep them during the summer, you know? That was the idea. We had a heated shop, heated to a certain extent, enough so that we could work in it you know.We'd have sometimes two or three airplanes torn apart. I remember one guy that bought a wrecked airplane. He bought pieces here and there. Remember Eddie Walker? Harmon: Yeah. Harold: He made an airplane out of it—and he flew it away. There was some pieces gone. I remember splicing wood spars that was broke right off—splice 'em and glue 'em, you know, clear 'em all up, get them inspected—flew 'em that way. We had the tail end off one airplane, and the front end off another, but as long as we could get 'em and make 'em fly— Harmon: The F.A.A. came in, you know. We had to take the airplane to the F.A.A. inspector and have it inspected by them. And they would approve it— Harold: They had to inspect it before, before it was covered, though, you know. Inside and then afterwards and— Harmon: We'd have to contact them, and they came here to the airport and checked—looked them over, and OK, and then we could cover them. Wanda: Mmm. There's probably a lot more rules and regulations than a—when you first started out. Harmon: Oh, it's terrible anymore. Wanda: Anything interesting there? Harmon: Anymore there's so many rules and regulations that the F.A.A. themselves don't know. They gotta go get the book and get it out and read the book on it. You couldn’t possibly remember them all. No way. It's got to be the most complicated thing that ever was, in my book. Harold: In fact, now I'm miles behind on the regulations. I don't even try to keep up with them. After ten years, the heck with it. Harmon: I'm sure a lot of it I'm not up on, but I, I go to school every two years ah—to a refresher—three days—24 hours of classroom and get my instructor's rating renewed and that—updates me again, to a certain extent, but I guess nobody can remember all the regs that you've got today. Harold: Requirements for a license have changed a tremendous amount since we learned to fly. Wanda: What were the requirements when you first flew? Harmon: In fact, that only—we had to have ten hours to be able to fly around the patch and that was it. Harold: You could carry passengers. Harmon: Yeah. They stood on the ground and watched ya. You took a little written test on the rules and regulations. Ten questions, practically nothing to it, and the— Harold: Write them out with pencil, and throw it away. Harmon: The inspector told you whether you passed that or not, and then he stood on the ground and watched ya. And you went out and did some—figure eights or—I took—I went down to the old Bennett Airport to take my flight test and the guy had, he busted the airplane. He landed so hard, it…that it had spread the landing gear, distorted th—some of the tubing on the bottom side—we couldn't fly it anymore. So my instructor said, "C 'mon, we’ll go to Tri-cities and catch the inspector. He's down there—or he's going there. We'll catch him this afternoon and get you a flight test on another airplane." Which I'd never flown. A pusher-type airplane, Curtis Pusher. So he checked me out in the airplane and we went down there and he let me go in that airplane, and I flew it around the patch and made a few landings and done some turns around the water tower there, where the railroad track went through and they had a little stop there where they put on water. I turned around that tank and something else and came back and landed and he gave me my license. Next day, I took you for a ride. [laughter] Harold: That's the only time I ever flew out of that field down there. I flew with him. Wanda: And that was the Tri-Cities Field—the old Tri-Cities Airport that you’re telling about? Harold: They didn't call it “Tri-Cities” at that time. Harmon: It was known as Endicott Airport. Harold: It was Endicott Airport at that time. It was right along the road—by the—between the Main Street and the railroad tracks on the west side of Endicott. Harmon: The Endicott owned it by themselves. Johnson City and Binghamton were not in on it. It was just Endicott Airport period. Then when they moved to where they are now, some years later— Harold: There was no true runway or anything. It was just a field, you know, just a grass field is all. Harmon: At that time they didn't do any flyin’—they didn't plow the runways or nothing—they just forgot it. Harold: Most airplanes was open airplanes then, you couldn't fly much in the winter anyway—couldn't stand it. They closed 'em. Wanda: Have you ever done any chartering flights? Harmon: Yes. When we were at the airport full time makin' a living, we bought ourselves a nice Stinson. We bought it from Dr. Moore in Endicott. It was almost new. It was $3,000. We did a lot of charter work with that airplane. Harold: We lost that in the fire. Wanda: Mmm. Harmon: Yeah, we failed to say that in nineteen fifty—five? Coulda been right—we burned out over here. Harold: Four. Harmon: Fifty-four. We burned out over here and lost—practically everything we had. We had no insurance. Harold: Labor Day weekend. Harmon: We don't know actually what caused the fire, but there was a man there working on his air lane and he started it somehow. He never would say and we never made him. Smoking or with a, not covering a light bulb. So we started up again, with one little airplane, built it up again to where I had three airplanes and did—a lot of students then but it got too heavy for me with my job. And I wasn't about to quit a pretty good job and try to make a livin' flyin' again. Not off that airport anyway, so—gradually sold them off to one. Wanda: This airport, after it started in 1923, it was—there was a lot of activity here, wasn't there? Harmon: Yes. As I remember it being a kid coming up here, at times when they had the—like the Ford Air Show and the fly-ins, there was a lot of activity there. And they did a lot of charter work with those old airplanes out of here. I've heard Mr. Haskell, who is long deceased, tell about it. And they were actually good pilots in those days. They had some pretty good airplanes, too. Some of the business men of the area, of Chenango Bridge and Port Crane, put the money in the field and a—do you remember the names? Harold: Macomber was one of them. Wanda: Yeah, Theodore Macomber. Harmon: And there was another one— Harold: There was a fellow by the name of Rowe, R-O-W-E. Carl Rowe. Harmon: He was manager of the airport. Harold: He run the—he was the instigator of it, really. Harmon: And there was a man from Sanitaria Springs who had a lot of money, a lumber dealer. Wanda: Cushman, was it? Harmon: I believe so. Something like that. If it wasn't his name, it was something like it. Used to hear Mr. Haskell— Harold: I don't remember that one. Harmon: —tell us about him, tell his name. Harold: Do you remember Myron Baird? Harmon: Yeah. Wanda: Well what were some of the other activities that you remember about—any special stories you want to tell about it? Harold: You didn't get about Ed Link's flying signs on there, probably. Wanda: No. Let's do that. You said he had a—designed a—an advertising sign that— Harold: A—he'd a—dreamed it up and made, on a high-wing airplane he made a low wing out of square frames, about 8 or 9 or 10 of 'em. Each one would make a letter. And he used a paper roller out of his player piano. He was in the player piano business, his father was, Link pianos they made. He had the holes in that paper set up so that it would make a sign light up any letters that he wanted on it. He'd fly around at night and it would light up. I remember he had a contract with Spaulding's. He had enough letters to make the word SPAULDING across it. He'd light up SPAULDING, when it would go off he'd light up CAKE, go off and he'd light up CRULLERS, and go off. And he’d fly low over the city, see? And he took contracts in Cortland and Syracuse, and Philadelphia, and all around the country. I don't know if he had one for New York or not. But he had three of those airplanes fixed up that way at different times. That's what he was doin' for, for an income. Wanda: Is that right? Harold: The piano business was pretty bad. They gradually closed it up, but then he dreamed up the Link trainer which was half a player piano too. He invented that. Had the bellows that they used out of player pianos. Some bellows that moved different things—he had 'em to push the trainers around. That's what moved them around. He used a vacuum pump with suction and pressure to push them trainers. Harmon: When I learned to fly with Link he still had the piano factory down on Water Street and in this factory he had a room set up where he had ground school. And two of the trainers that he'd built. And they looked a little bit like an airplane. They had wings on 'em and a little fuselage, tail assembly. All worked, and before we soloed out we had to have time in those trainers. And I had so much on the instrument trainer, so much on the—we called it the “bump” trainer. You'd get in and turn it on. It would sit there for a second or two and then it would dive off one way and you had to correct, and on the wall he had a light. And on the nose of the trainer was a—tatting [sic]—what would you call it? Harold: Gun sight. A gun sight. Harmon: Yeah, like a gun sight, or a ring. And you'd look through that ring at that light and keep it in the light. And it would duck off sideways and you'd control it and bring it back and this was how you—it helped you to control an airplane after you got in the air. Harold: You were fightin' rough air to keep this thing on the target. Wanda: Well was it essentially the same feeling that you had in a plane? Harmon: A little bit. Yes. It helped. It…it did. Harold: The nose went up or down and the wings went up or down. It rocked both ways on both axles. And turned also—three axles. Harmon: But it was from the pianos that he designed this. And this—like Harold said—later on was the C-3 'blue box' as the military called it, and they built a tremendous amount of 'em for all the countries in the world used them, that were in the War. Harold: They put a hood over the thing so you couldn't see out, with instruments in it. Simulated instruments. Harmon: I'm pretty sure, certain it was before World War II that Ed Link and his wife went to Japan and the Japs bought some of them. Harold: Yeah, they bought two or three of them. Herb Chamberlain went over there. Wanda: Might have had a pretty good market over there. Harold: It's just hearsay, but they said Herb Chamberlain went over there and the Japs had taken one of them trainers completely apart—every piece out of it, and they couldn't get it back together again. He went over there and worked on it to get it, to get to work again. Wanda: We could have lost the War. Did he make some of those early trainers in Cortland, did you say? Harmon: Yes. He sort of got disenchanted I think, with the city of Binghamton. They gave him a rough time, this area did. Mobil Oil was one of them. He wouldn't buy Mobil no how, for many, many years, because they gave him a rough time. I guess he owed them some money, couldn't pay it and they wouldn't go along with him. But anyway he left here, went to Cortland and was up there several years. He left this area while I was learning to fly and I followed him to Cortland and drove up there and flew his airplane for two or three years in completing what education I got from Link's school. And a—while there he progressed rapidly as we moved into World War Il and made many many trainers there and probably got his first financial footing there. Got really started there. Then— Harold: He moved back down here on the corner of Gaines and Front Street. Wanda: Gaines? Harold: Yeah, on the corner of Gaines St. and Front St. He had that factory in there and that was about—just before the War and they had a big contract. That Casey Jones in New York was involved in it. Sold them a military contract and they were instrument trainers. They were all instrument trainers, nothing else. They made a lot of improvements. They had a fellow by the name of Lokrantz. Gunnie Lokrantz was an electronics wizard and he was from I.B.M., but Link hired him and he had a lot to do with it. I used to go down there nights. I was a sign painter and I lettered their crates for them. Ship them all over the world. He had me put the letters on the crates by hand, you know, to send them out. They had big wood boxes, like piano boxes you know? Big ones with parts of the trainer in 'em. Harmon: That was the old Red Dot cigar factory on the corner. Wanda: Corner of Gaines and Front. Harmon: There's a bar and grill or something in now—now Front St. is off—you couldn't go that way. He moved from there over in—I guess it was the Hubbard, Eldridge and Miller furniture factory. Over on the Brandywine dump. It was built where the dump was or after the dump was in there. It used to go down through the hollow there across the creek and over to that factory. And it was a large flat brick building and he moved into that from Gaines St. and then from there he moved on up to the old—truck factory down here. Larrabee Truck in Hillcrest. Wanda: Oh, that's where Larrabee Truck was. Harold: I remember when they built Larrabee trucks there. I remember seein' 'em. They weren't much good, but they built quite a lot of them. Harmon: Well. We say they weren't much good, but for their day, they were…they— Harold: They had a chain drive on the rear wheel, some of 'em did. Chains—like a bicycle chain only a big one—on the side, you know? Sprockets on 'em. Gwenn [Mrs. Harmon Johnson]: Isn't that one sitting down here on the Brandywine? Harmon: No, that's a Lynn. That's a crawler-type truck. It has crawlers on the back and a—wheels in front. Lynn Tractor of Morris. Harold: World War II vintage, or something like that. Harmon: Lynn Tractor built quite a few of those in World War II and then they stopped. Wanda: Well then, to get back to this airport, have you covered just about everything on activities that went on around here? Do you remember any of the show pilots or stunt pilots, and that sort of thing? Can you speak about the Waco—that was Waco Taperwing? Harold: That Taperwing? Cy Bittner was traveling around the country with that one to all the air shows. Harmon: He was the airline’s pilot—or airmail pilot. Airlines weren't flying yet. He was the airmail pilot and he worked out of Albany. And on his time off he used to go around the country to the air shows doing aerobatics and he had this airplane all fixed up with chrome wires and real fancy. He was an expert pilot. He was—finished himself off long ago. Harold: There's some more of them pilots used to come here. I can't remember their names. I remember that one—with Harold Johnson with the Tri-motor Ford, that I saw perform in Syracuse, but— Wanda: Did you say something about Roscoe Turner—being here? Harmon: Yes. Back prior to our being over at the airport and I was up here on a bicycle, I guess—I was not old enough to even fly yet—they had the Ford Air Tour went across the nation. And it stopped at Chenango Bridge Airport. And it's possible at that time it was called the Binghamton Airport— Harold: Yeah, it was. Harmon: —because there was no airport at Bennett Airport or Tri-Cities either, this was it. It was the first airport around here. And a, Roscoe Turner was in the group flying a Gee-Bee. All of their airplanes were designed to fly out of small airports. Today our airport is awfully small. For the airports, or airplanes that are built, built today, our airport is too small, for most of them. They need concrete runways and a lot of it. Wanda: Yeah. How long are these runways now? Harmon: Twenty-one fifty is our longest runway. Wanda: Mmhmm. That's the East-West. Harmon: Yeah. Harold: You can't do much nowadays with less than Three-thousand or Thirty-five hundred. Minimum, ya know. That's what Tri-Cities is: Three-thousand. 3000. Wanda: There's no way to expand here any more is there, either? Harmon: No. It costs a lot of money. Unless you get Federal money or Federal help, it's pretty near impossible to run an airport today. Many, many little airports around the country are going by the wayside. They can't survive. Taxes are so high on the land and a—they get no help from anybody. It's open to the public but they don't want to put one dime in it, unless it's owned by the public. If it was a—a community-owned airport, like the—if Chenango Bridge or the town owned it, then you could get Federal aid. Wanda: Yeah. Harmon: But we can't have—get one dime. And, uh, now that we don't operate it commercially…why, it's almost impossible to make it run. My buildings are in bad shape. My equipment is old and I'm gettin' old. Harold: Boy, how prices have changed on—like aviation gas. Wanda: Oh, yeah? Harold: Boy, we used to buy a barrel for what you can buy five gallons for now. Wanda: Is that right? Harold: Well, not quite that bad, but— Wanda: The gasoline itself has changed a lot, probably, too. Harold: Yeah. We used to buy an aviation-grade fuel. It came in steel, fifty-gallon barrels from Atlantic. Harmon: About $10.00 a barrel. Harold: $10.00 - $11.00 a barrel for 55 gallons. And it was very good gas, wasn't it? Harmon: It was. Harold: Never any water—I can't think what octane it was. Seems like it was 75, or something like that. Harmon: It was low. Harold: It was nothing like nowadays, but a, you could put your hand in it, take it out, it would dry it up white, right quick. Very volatile. It would evaporate fast, you know? Well we'd get it in fifty-gallon drums, and pour it through a chamois with a funnel into the airplane. Wanda: Yeah. Harold: Chance. Harmon: Gasoline today I'm getting 87 cents over here and I'm under some of the other airports around. I guess I'm about 5 cents a gallon under. Harold: Sure. I'm sure down around New York it would bring you a dollar a gallon for fuel. Harmon: Today it's pretty close to that. Wanda: Well, I'm trying to think what we haven't covered by now. Harold: I remember that guy at Atlantic. He, he was the one—Ziegler was his name or something like that? Harmon: Yeah? Harold: He'd order up two or three barrels of gas for us. They'd keep sending it up by truck and he'd set 'em off, ya know. The old big steel barrels. They were galvanized, rounded barrels. They were not like these you see now, that are straight sides, you know. They used to be rounded like a—they were galvanized, they were heavy barrels. But they were a gasoline barrel. I remember being up in Canada with a Sea-Bee and having to go get me one of them with a station wagon and bring it in—hundreds of miles. Back in— Wanda: Is that right? Harold: —for gasoline for a Sea-Bee, you know. Harmon: A good four place airplane today, equipped as it should be, minimum I'd call a good airplane about fifty-thousand. If you've really got the money you can go up—better than a hundred in a little four place airplane. So it's just got outta hand as far as the average man who is concerned to buy his airplane to fly unless it's business, something like that. And that's what the people that are doing most of the flying, I think, in buying airplanes today are small business or business people, because—they write that airplane off. Wanda: There's—there's not the fun for young people, either, to go into it. Harmon: No. No. Harold: So many restrictions in flying now. You gotta have radio gear. You can't even go into Broome County without a radio, you know? Wanda: Is that a fact? Harold: You can't get to New York or Washington or Chicago any more without a lot of radio gear. Wanda: When did you first start getting into the radio a—requirements? When did you—what kind of radio equipment did you— Harold: World War II, they got some of it. Wanda: Mm-hm. Harold: And I was teaching instrument flying on Army and Air Force programs, and the radio was the old-fashioned, low frequency radio. They had a, a radio beam and you, you made instrument approaches and everything with it. That's what I was teaching, you know. After the War they came out with the new UHF, or VHF it was at first. The OMNI which is very popular yet today. There's a lot of big improvements in it, but. That static created—the old ones, when you had a thunder shower your radio went out, ya know. It was real crazy 'cause the static would just drive it right out if you had a thunder shower. Harmon: A little trainer today, just coming out new by Piper and it looks like it was going to be pretty popular, two-place, one hundred and eight horsepower, low-wing, canopy top, nice visibility out of it, comfortable airplane to fly in—the minimum is $20,000.00. Harold: Just a two-place. Harmon: That's just two-place. And it's a very small airplane. Isn't fast. It isn't an airplane that you would buy to go somewhere with, it's strictly a training airplane. Or for someone to fly on Sunday or something if you want to go for a little ride around the airport. But to get up into a good four-place family airplane, fifty grand—about the cheapest. Harold: In about 1954—ah—G.A.F. got a new Bonanza. It cost what—eleven or twelve thousand? Harmon: Twelve thousand. Harold: And it was a beautiful airplane. I flew it four hundred hours, something, for them. I remember a trip to Los Angeles and back with it, but that airplane, today, would be at least fifty-thousand, wouldn't it? Harmon: Uh-uh. It's over a hundred. That airplane today is a hundred and nine thousand fully equipped. I've been reading about it recently. Harold: It was listed like—twelve—thirteen thousand or something when they bought it. It was brand new, they got it from up there to Rochester from a dealer. Harmon: So this is what's happened to the aviation industry. Harold: It's priced itself off the market. Wanda: Yeah, for a smaller operator like you are, you're just not going to be able to survive. Harold: You can't do it. You, you can't—have a hundred-thousand dollar airplane and rent it out. Wanda: Yeah. Just like everything else, it's getting too big. Harmon: You’ve gotta be big business today to—to make a go and we have an example of that. A fellow in Endicott at Tri-Cities Airport was an engineer in IBM Owego. Got interested in flying, got all the licenses and so on. He left—got a leave of absence for the year from IBM. He got money to back him, they built a big hangar at Tri-Cities Airport, he's got a—is a Cessna dealer today. He's doing real well, but he deals in big airplanes. He sells to corporations around. I don't know how he does it, but he—he sold a twin-engine airplane to someone in Washington, D.C.—a brand new one, a 410-Cessna, which runs $300,000. Harold: He's making it in sales, not the operation. Harmon: Right. He's not making it on the operating, strictly sales. He's a salesman, he's got people working for him and somehow he sells airplanes. Harold: An outfit in Reading there, did that and did real well. They—two brothers and I used to know 'em. Wanda: You—you a—rent space in your hangar now? Harmon: Yes. I have ten airplanes on the field, counting my own, and this is how it keeps running. Wanda: Yeah. Harmon: If it wasn't for the hangar rent and the little sale of gasoline and so on it would fold up, and Haskell's would plant corn there. Wanda: Yeah. Harmon: I have to give Haskell's, of course, more than half of what I take in and I—what's left over, it's pretty hard to make the thing run on that. I have to maintain the buildings and a they don't touch it. Wanda: Mmm. The overhead and all that is your responsibility. Well, I would hate terribly to see the Chenango Bridge Airport go out of business. It's been a landmark for a long time. Harmon: It's been here a long time, and ah— Harold: Sooner or later it's bound to happen. Harmon: Its days are numbered, I'm sure. As we know, Haskell's gave up the retail milk business this year. OK, how long they'll stay at the wholesale, let's call it, that they're in now, no one knows. Ah. They get pretty discouraged and I'm sure all farmers do and have over the years, as anybody else in business does, but a—who knows how long it lasts? Maybe I’ll give up before they do. I don't know. I get pretty exasperated, too, trying to run the place and— Harold: You don't make any money on it and it's foolish to be tied up to it. Harmon: We do an awful lot of work for nothing, you know, for that thing. Gwenn: Find time to go fishing spring and fall. Wanda: Right. But go by plane and enjoy that part of it anyway. Well, I want to thank you. Harold: You and Charlie don't go on fishing trips, do you? Wanda: Not much anymore but I—we're just about of time here. Harold: I just brought some pictures over to show Harm. Wanda: I want to thank you very much, and for your hospitality, and I hope we can maybe do this again. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harmon and Harold Johnson Subject The topic of the resource Johnson, Harmon -- Interviews; Johnson, Harold -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Aeronautics; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Link, Edwin A. (Edwin Albert), 1904-1981; Airplanes; Air pilots -- Interviews; Link Aviation; Chenango Bridge Airport Description An account of the resource Harmon and Harold Johnson describe learning to fly in the early 1930s under the direction of Edwin Link. They operated the Chenango Bridge Airport. They discuss the requirements for licensing, and progressing to commercial, transport, and instructor's ratings. The brothers also discuss various aircrafts they have flown, working as pilots for corporate businesses, and how post WWII affected their operation. They operated a dealerships for Aeronca and Piper airplanes. They talk about changes in flying school, air shows and stunt pilots who visited Chenango Bridge, and how the airport's usefulness has declined due to modern developments in aviation. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 36 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Harmon ; Johnson, Harold ; Wood, Wanda Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-31 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 44:31 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/addca401e9f29ed469e6cac9400cf83f.mp3 79abb94447f7571581ac06b708694b19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed McAvoy, James J. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Date of Interview 1978-02-01 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 26:49 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55978">Interview with James J. McAvoy</a> Subject LCSH McAvoy, James J. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Hotels -- Employees -- Interviews; Prohibition; Johnson City (N.Y.); Faatz Brush and Felting Works Company Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mr. James S. McAvoy Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of interview: 1 February 1978 James: I think we could pull that curtain down. Susan: No, that's fine. Mr. McAvoy could you tell us something about your early recollections of your childhood—something about your parents? James: Well Mother and Father lived together with six children and they're all—two of us is all that's left. I'm the second oldest one and I have a sister. She's alive yet she is 80, she lives in Binghamton. She is 80 years old. The rest of them has all passed away. My mother—my father he was 93 when he died. My mother was 90.  Susan: What kind of work did your father do? James: Eh? Susan: What kind of work? James: Ah he a well a when we were young we used to run a hotel. We run a hotel over in Four Corners for 30-40 years then after that time Prohibition that shut the hotel up so we lived on the farm there for a while and when he got some kind of work he came down here. I stayed on the farm there for a while and I lost all my dairy in the TB test. I said the TB test. My wife was sick quite a little bit that was the girls’ job so my wife she was sick an awful lot she always was such a great worker. She worked too hard on the farm so she was at Sayre Hospital, so she was up there I came up here and got a job. When she got her out we lived on the farm for about a month and I got a house up here and we moved up here that was ‘48 I think. Susan: How much schooling did you have as a youngster? James: How many? I had a 5 girls. Susan: No, no, schooling—school? James: Oh I never had too much school. We only had a country school about the ninth grade. We never got too far in school we never had money enough to go to college so of course them days the colleges were so far away. They wasn't like they are today so, we ain’t got too much education don't think that. We got away with it in the world of course we made a lot of mistakes along as everybody else as long as the graduated people does but a I often missed it but a—so then after we got up here they was better schools up there so I had five daughters and there is two of them graduated down from Meshoppen High School. The other three graduated from Johnson City High School. A—So they well was—I have one daughter who lives up in Hillcrest and I have another daughter who lives over in Endwell and then I have a daughter who lives over on Crisfield in Vestal and then I have one daughter who lives in Meshoppin, PA. Susan: Well, can you tell me something about some of your jobs that you had? James: Ah I—used to be a foreman on the road for a Tillion coal contractor company. I done that for about 3 years. I was Assistant Foreman. I wasn't a big hot shot but I was over all the grading work and all that kind of stuff and they were leaving town then didn't have no jobs so I didn't want to leave home to go with them because they only had about 6 months work on a job or somethin’. So then I come up here and I got a job with Felters and I worked 20 years there. Susan: What kind of work did you do there? James: Well, I ran a machine. I operated a carding machine. Susan: What did they make? I knew of the Felter Co, but E-J's made shoes. James: They made felt—felt—made all kinds of felt—made, oh, I couldn't tell you all the kinds, at that time there were 25 or 30 different kinds of felt. They made felt for the government, made felt for ink pads and anything you want they made it for shoes felt and all that stuff. They were a nice place to work for. The work wasn't hard. It was steady work. Dusty but otherwise twas a nice job to work and they were a nice company to work for so after I got through there they moved out of town when I quit. I was sixty nine years old when I—when they moved out of town, so I—well I done a little painting around, carpentering and I got tired of that and I quit and I didn't do anything ever since. Then my wife got sick and she had a stroke so we stayed home and took care of her for quite a while. Susan: Can you recall of any of the big changes that have happened here? James: That's right. Yeah.  Susan: —in the area since you— James: That's true. Yeah. That of course is a lot of changes in life since we were born. Susan: Were the trolley cars here when you first came here to—was it Lestershire or had it changed to Johnson City? James: It was Johnson City. Yeah—yeah I used often wonder when I was a young kid I'd often wonder I'd like to go to Lestershire—ha ha ha—but when I got there and I found out it was altogether a different place—ha ha ha. Used to hear people at home out in our country about the doom down here a lot of them worked at the shoe factory they’d be telling about Lestershire and next thing we knew it was about Johnson City. Ha ha ha yeah—yeah, so I don't know. Susan: What about some of the buildings I mean can you recall when you first came here—a what it was like? James: Oh there was a lot of business when we first come here and was a lot of places that started business entirely. You could go most anyplace and get a job then. There was the Robinson Lumber Co. and there was the big Spool & Bobbin, the foundry over where the Philadelphia sales is and another factory right down there in Endwell—a—err—Johnson City Heel & Last ah there is a lot of them here that's gone out of business since I come here. Yeah, you could go out most anytime.  Susan: Were there any—a—important events like big fires or things that you recall when you were younger? James: Oh well not up around here that I know of, of course no not really. Of course down in our country Pennsylvania there used to be they lumber that country over, you know, then somebody started a fire clean the brush ha ha cleared the timber off and they were big fires but there were always fires barns and houses burning one thing or another but the country there was never as big fires as you have up here you know. Susan: We've been trying to gather information from people that have worked in the cigar factories that were here at one time. James: The cigar factory fire—well that was before I came up here. Susan: Oh it was. James: That's the time it burned up all them girls but that was a few years before I moved up here. Susan: I see.  James: Yeah. But my girls they all come up here and they all went to work they got jobs and finally all got married so I'm working now. I have one daughter she lives in Massachusetts I don't know something else what you know what happened around here.  Susan: Well is there anything you can tell us about your parents? When they were growing up or any of their customs? What were your people? What background were they? James: What? What? Susan: What background were they? James: Oh they I don’t— Susan: Well you knew that there were a lot of Polish and Russians here. James: Oh they were just common ordinary people you know the ah—yeah—my mother and grandfather, grandmother my grandfather, Carter, he was about 94 years old when he died. Susan: But was he born in this country? James: He was born in a—New York State. Yeah. He was born up here someplace up here. My grandmother was born down in Auburn, Pennsylvania. Her name was Farley and—and like anything else we're scattered all over the country. What do you do live here in Binghamton? Susan: I—I was born in Binghamton and I was brought up in Johnson City. My family is from here. James: Yeah, well my wife she was born in Binghamton—err Pennsylvania too. Susan: Well the McAvoys are quite—quite a well known name in this community. James: Oh yes. Susan: Don’t you have a some of your relatives? James: Cousins of these McAvoys up here Tom, the judge.  Susan: The judge. When I first heard the name I said, “McAvoy, well you must know quite a few people.” James: Yeah. Oh well I don’t know we were never too close together we were always good friends back and forth but you know yet my grandfather used to all I know is what he told me. He said there were six of them, and their parents died when they were young and they were scattered all over the country. Some of then New York, some of them in Scranton and I don't know where he was and I never knew too much about them because he'd never tell ya too much. He was grown up an orphan of some kind then he went west for quite a while when he went out on that gold hunt you know but I guess he never got too much gold. Susan: Your grandfather did or your father did? James: Yeah, well he was past eighty when he passed away. Yeah—yep. Susan: What—what do you think about the changes? What do you think about the changes from a—a the radio when it first came and now television?  James: Do you like television? Well, I think I'll tell ya some that’s all right some that they've gone a little too far with. I do for a fact. Susan: But you have lived to see a lot of changes. James: But not when we were kids—ah we never had television, never radio. I helped build the first telephone line ever to come in our country. There used to be 52 on one line. Susan: Fifty-two, that's interesting. James: Yeah—ha ha yeah. Susan: How about when you first started working for Felters? Can you remember what you earned? James: Yeah, I started in at 80¢ an hour when I started in but I got through I was getting $1.30. Susan: $1.30. James: Yeah, but I was just as well off at the 80¢ as I was with the $1.30 because everything wasn't so high it didn't cost us any more to live at that than when we were getting $1.30 because everything went up so in prices and everything. Yeah. Susan: Can you recall some of the things you did as a young man for entertainment socially? James: Does what? Susan: Can you recall what you did as a young man? I mean from the standpoint of fun, recreation? James: Oh well we used to winter times—we of course you may think it’s funny but we used to there used to be a lot of quilting bees, tying comforter and lot of us get together if you had a quilting bee we'd tie your quilt and then we played checkers, played cards, a lot of dances. They was we had just good times as they have today at least we didn't know any better—ha. But today we didn't have no way you never got so far away from home because about all we had is a horse and wagon 8 and 10 miles was our limit today they don't mind three or four hundred miles with a car—yeah—we all got along. We was never found any fault. Used to have a lot of nice ice cream socials, oyster suppers, dances and all of that. Susan: Did you ever go to those barn raising affairs? James: Oh God, yes. Oh sure. Susan: —to help one another.  James: We had that right along. Yeah. Neighbor build a barn and everybody turned out and helped him. Yeah—there ain't no more of that anymore. Now it's all done mechanically. Yeah, yet I can remember when they used to go to the woods with a broad ax and cut the frames right out in the woods. The old fellows put them together and they'd go together too. Susan: And they lasted a long time. James: Yeah, oh God, last a long time. Well if they used hemlock or pine they'd last for years. Hemlock or hardwood didn't last so long because the worm eat if you didn't keep the roof on it and keep it dry. Yeah most of us built—Our country there was a lot of hemlock and pine. We used that. Susan: Well, Mr. McAvoy it's been nice talking with you. James, Well I'm glad I talked to you too. Susan: It's a lovely day, after all that snow we had.  James: Yeah. Talk to Lena there she's got a better record yeah. Susan: I will, thank you very much. This is Susan Dobandi interviewer and I have been talking with James J. McAvoy who lives at 15 Park St., Johnson City, NY. The date is Feb 1st, 1978. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James J. McAvoy Subject The topic of the resource McAvoy, James J. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Hotels -- Employees -- Interviews; Prohibition; Johnson City (N.Y.); Faatz Brush and Felting Works Company Description An account of the resource James J. McAvoy discusses his childhood working for his family's hotel for about thirty five years before its closure due to the prohibition movement. He talks about working at the Felters Company. As a young man he participated in a barn raising and discusses social activities. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 43 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McAvoy, James J. ; Dobandi, Susan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-02-01 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 26:49 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bd119431ff04aa9bb893691a2b2c167a.mp3 bc6ed778975dd1fe0849046e03d0def6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e3e47b652b3d98a6958ee96ab92083d8.mp3 ce429ad9439b815a71122f3073bd484b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sedlak, John Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1978-02-03 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:56 Minutes ; 11:52 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56015">Interview with John Sedlak</a> Subject LCSH Sedlak, John -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Johnson, George F. (George Francis), 1857-1948; Life insurance agents -- Interviews; Shoes; Italians; Russians; Polish Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: John Sedlak Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo Date of Interview: 3 February 1978 Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to John Sedlak of O'Day Drive, Endicott, New York on Feb. 3, 1978. John, will you tell us about your life and experiences in the community? John: Well, to begin with I'm the first generation in this country, my folks having come from Czechoslovakia about 1907 and I was born on Oak Hill Avenue and delivered by a midwife, one of seven children with the exception of one, all of us were delivered by midwives—ive of us are living—two brothers died shortly after birth. On my folks when they came to this country they did not come from Czechoslovakia, it was known then, as Austria-Hungary. As a result, they both spoke and wrote Hungarian as well as Slovak. And many times during our youth when they didn't want us kids to know what they are talking about—they would speak Hungarian. They even sang in Hungarian, that he's—I used to remember some of them but I can't say them now because I can't remember them. But, I believe my first recollection I have as a youth, I lived on Oak Hill Avenue up to a age of twelve—here our next door neighbors were Italian. They came on the same boats as the rest of the foreign people those days and yet, our parents, even though they were different nationalities we would have a good relationship with the Italian people by sign language if nothing else or with a few words of English that we learned at work and we had good relationships with these foreign neighbors who, when I say foreign neighbors, we were foreigners, too, or our parents were. And I recall, as a kid, Endicott Johnson was mainstay of this community, they were the biggest, the best and you thought nothing of, rather, you thought, not of going to work somewheres else, your ship was sighted towards gonna work for Endicott Johnson, unless you were going to be a professional person which was a rare thing so—we—ah—ah see what I want to say ah. I just want to recollect that the great benefactor, that the Mr. George F. Johnson, was because, as a youngster it—we were benefited with sleds, wagons, parks, and as I recall every school that went up in the community the Endicott Johnson Corporation or George F. Johnson himself was grant maybe about half the payments for school which reduced the tax for all the people in the community. Christmas time he gave shoes to all the school kids and it didn't make any difference where your parents worked he got a pair of shoes free. Great humanitarian! And occasionally maybe you ought to stop that thing. Nettie: Take your time—relax—we'll just keep it going. John: Well, no, I'm relaxed—the only thing I'm just trying to think what I should inject in your machine and it is picking up our conversation. (Laughing). I was just gonna say that I would recall the honesty of the working people. I have a good example of my own. One day my mother wanted to wash my clothes, I was then about 10 years old, I had picked up a couple of combs at the dime store which I didn't pay for. To make a long story short, my father said, "Take your pants off and give them to your mother to take them to scrub them on a scrub board at that time.” I took these combs out of my pocket and he saw them and asked me, "Where did you get them?" I had to tell him—I stole them. Well, he told me to change my clothes and he took me all the way down Oak Hill Ave, stood in front of dime store and he said, "Now, you go in and put them in—put them back,” and that's what I had to do. Now that was the greatest lesson of "not stealing" that I ever had because it put me in good stead because all my life after that I never had to worry about a job if—I—-handle a lots of money. I wasn't tempted to walk off with any of it because—it just didn't—he put that lesson so clearly to me—that your name meant so much—poverty isn’t that bad—as long as you had a place to sleep and you had enough to eat. I don't care what you ate, you can get by in this world, get by with soup every day of the week. You don't have to have steak, potatoes—so that rubbed off on me so deeply that I am now 66 and I never forgot that incident and haven't touched anything since. I don't mean to throw stones on anybody else—but I certainly used that as a comparison that you can get by—by working and saving and the things of life which you really need first, the other pleasures come when you have the money—if don't have ‘em—don't worry ‘em but enjoy your neighborhood, your friends close by. You don't have to travel the world over—in other words to think you're missing something, if you don't go to Spain, France or something—someplace like that. If you can, fine, like to go and got the money—go—really—but what I'm just saying—the best thing in the world, as far as I can see is to make friends in your immediate neighborhood, your community and enjoy them. And I wanted to mention something else, and we moved on the farm about 1923 because of my mother's health but that didn't work out too well. It was too far for my father to travel to work—Endicott Johnson so we moved back to Endicott on North Street, this time, from there I developed to adulthood. Nettie: Is this about the time you were entering into the insurance business, John? John: No, no I did not enter into insurance business until I worked for about 8 years with Endicott Johnson as a shoe clerk. I started on Washington Ave transfering to Johnson City for 2 years and from there I was transferred to a new store, which opened up on Odell Ave… They needed someone who could speak the Slav languages. Well I didn't like to take the job in the first place because actually there was a reduction in pay—at least they told me there wasn't gonna be—finally it turned out it was and I stood with it—but for five years but after I got there the work turned out to be very, very good, very interesting. The people would speak Slav or they understood me, anyway if they were Russian, or Polish, we would get by. But the greatest thing I can remember from that, that experience, rather, working in that shoe store was mostly this—that I had an Italian lady who recently had come from Italy, I say recently, she may’ve been here a year or so she had been in tie shoe store numerous times and after time she would ask for me and she would always speak in Italian. The manager was Italian but she didn't want him, I guess because of his forceful sales methods, his forceful way of selling a shoe. She didn't like it—she always, when she came in the door—she would tell me in Italian that she wanted me—I can even repeat that—"Beaj ju va" [sic]—and that was a strange relationship because I would talk to her—I knew how to say colors, like I could ask her if she wanted black, brown or white shoe. I'd sit her down, measure her feet and I'd even tell her the price in Italian and I got so, I was, that much I can get by with and she appreciated that much and we got along very well. And the reason I brought up this incident is the fact you show some compassion towards people and they responded in kind and it didn't make any difference what your nationality was as far she was concerned, made no difference to me that she was Italian. I just felt wonderful with that experience, here's a person in that store that speaks as well as good Italian as she could but she preferred me, of a Slav descent and she knew it. Though, that was one of the experiences I had in life there and as time went along I wanted to leave the store and go to the Washington Avenue store which I had started in many, many years back. There was a vacancy there—and it would pay me almost 50% more in pay and I got the OK from the district manager but then he referred me to the vice president of the company, Lawrence Merle and when I sat down and talked with him he said, "We built the North Side Store for North Side people—if I take you from there and put you down on Washington Avenue you’re going to pull some of that trade down there and we can't do that." I got up on my haunches about then and said, "Mr. Merle, most companies pay a person more money because they can speak more than one language and you are penalizing me." He says, "No, no, no." By that time I got up and in spite of this man's vice presidency in that corporation and overall command of all the stores in United States, I FELT PROUD BECAUSE I could get up and say what I thought. About a year later, I left the store because I figured that wasn't the proper treatment. When I gave my notice about a week before I was to have my final days, I got a phone call asking me if I would take the manager's job in Cleveland, Ohio which I refused because I had given Metropolitan a—my OK that I was coming to work for them.  And even, there, I was hired because I could speak more than one language—they needed an agent who could speak other than English, In other words, the Slav language. And there again, it was in the same area as the shoe store. I got wound up with what they used to call it a debit in those days—a debit meant you had accounts, that were weekly, monthly, quarterly, semi or yearly and you collected mostly your money from the people on scheduled calls. I found out when I got the debit it wasn't as much Slav as I thought. I had almost as much Italian accounts but there again those same people were going to the shoe store, and they knew me, and I had a reasonable amount of success in the business of selling, regardless of what nationality there were. As I mentioned before you had we were not in full Depression at that time that, and this was in 1938, and still the country was not in a rosy condition either. We did have to collect some accounts every week, some people paid 2-3 dollars every week, those were big accounts. You try to equate that today, 2 - 3 dollars a week would mean about 20 dollars a week at least and those were pretty good size accounts, when you analyze them on today's market. Some of the experiences there were—oh—let's see I had something in mind, Nettie—and I can't think of what I was going to mention—Oh—I recall—yes—I had a man who I always had a hard time collecting from him—seldom home and drank a lot and lots of times I let his account go—after stopping there—I would let it go until the last day and I would go 2 or 3 times, see if I could catch him home. This one night I decided, well, I've had it, I was going home. I had stopped previously there, he lived on the third floor. Before I came to—on my return trip home which was almost 9 o'clock that night I've had a glass of wine at the last place I collected, and just one glass. I didn't know how to drink too much anyway, I came up to this fellow and he was giving me a hard time and I guess he could smell I had something to drink. We weren't supposed to drink. But this was the case, as I said, where the man—always giving me a rough time and here I was stopping, figuring I was going home, it was on my route home so I stopped because I could see a light on the third floor. I went up, I guess he paid me but don't remember that either except I do recall the next meeting, Friday of that week, we generally have meetings every Friday, the manager got up and he mentioned without mentioning names, he said, “One of you was reported to have been drinking this week. And I don't like that and this man didn't like it.” So I thought, "Ho, I bet they're talking about me." So when the meeting did break up, I did go into the manager·'s office and asked him if it was me. I gave him the circumstances. He says, "Johnny, we all drink but he says we never drink while you work.” He did tell me it was me. He didn't want to mention the man's name and I told him if it's this man and I told him the circumstances and what type of man that man was. We shook hands and that was it, the boss realized he just had a crank situation on his hands and told me to disregard it, he wasn't going to to make no report to the home office on that, so that's the way that situation ended. Now as far as selling the foreign born, most of them came to this country not knowing what insurance was. They didn't have no such things in Europe in those days. If a person passed away there, the village carpenter in the smaller communities, made a pine box and they were buried. However they paid for in those years—in those countries, I don't know. So we had to instill into the minds of people that just came into this country that you had a little different process here—you had the undertaker, you had the priest to pay or the minister as the case may be, because in many European countries the priest or the ministers were paid by the state so they didn't have any of that outside expense. Here, they had to uphold their own churches, and as a result you had to pay the priest, as I said again, the minister so the convincing—was sometimes hard, sometimes these people came were little above average, they had to be, they were pioneers, see—they must’ve been brave, leaving their mother country and come these thousand of miles away, not knowing the language, customs. Just picture ourselves, if we had to do this—even in our country transplant ourselves from here to the west coast, and all our other relations are here. It takes bit of forethought and courage to go out and do it—especially if you are close to your family and that was so in those days, our people came to this country they were close to their mothers and fathers and brothers—and they came from common stock and nobody was actually professional—not as we see the many foreign people come to this foreign country today—have a education, they are professional—it is easier—welcome better and they have a generally—they know there gonna to travel, they try to get books, that they can at least translate and get by until they make up their minds if they will go into further studies and be more proficient in the language. They can at least get by translating or reading the—other book—where our parents, with a limited educations—over there. My father told me he was—he went to school ‘til he was twelve years old and that was it. Here's this man that knew two languages at that time and he went up to the third or fourth grade. So, sometimes I used to, as a young man, take a hold they didn't know nothing. I look back they knew lot more. They knew the land, they knew how to work the land, they knew seasons, they knew what the seasons represented—by that, I mean—ah—if it was gonna be cold—they knew it by looking at things that natures provided—for them—in other words—they had a first hand course of their parents who, that would teach ‘em—all about these things—like for example, grafting a tree—I seen my father doing that as a kid. Here I am a high school graduate, years of experience in this community, I don't know how to graft a tree. That's what I mean. They knew how to put in a good garden—and why it did grow or not grow—they could tell you, without a formal education from nobody—so most of it came from their parents from their experience they were shown and they did. My father, when he came to this country, most people that left school and wanted to be for example, to be a tailor, they would go—work as an apprentice with a tailor. And so many years afterward—before he was granted some sort of a written certificate, I presume—someday he could come out and be a tailor on his own, either be hired in the industries or set up his own shop. That's the way they began life and some of ‘em prospered by it—especially those who came to this country which ways. We knew so little because so little was written about our country. Nettie: John, what kind of policies did they have at first? John: Oh—did digress away from the insurance business. Nettie: Oh—that's quite all right. John: When I began, actually most people paid insurance either by the week or by the month—most people had a hard time if you wrote them a policy to pay 6 or 7 dollars every three months—with the size of their families being large they felt it would be better if you wrote it by the week. But as things improved, you started writing more policies by the month—otherwards—I said, I began in 1938 and I recall that I had a break in there in 1944—I was drafted into military service and even in 1944 the economy had improved and you were writing more insurance that people were paying by the month—but again—that might not run over 5-6-7 dollars a month and it wasn't until after World War II when you started to write people 8-9-10 dollar premium a month plus what they already had—and these plans of insurance vary—most of our people did like to have a policy where they paid all their life. Even though, life policy was less expensive and they were having more protection for their dollar. They didn't feel they should be paying when they couldn't work any more, for example, So they would prefer a 20 payment life. We sell more of that—but the younger generation got better educated—some from service—realizing that—eh—why not be insured for $10,000 instead of let's say, 5 or 6 thousand under 20 payment for practically the same premium. So the people—as you educated people to understand insurance better and telling them—well, look if you take a whole life and can't pay it all your life that doesn't mean you are going to lose that money—say you come to 65 and you want to stop paying and you want to take what they call a reduced paid up insurance policy for over $6000 or whatever the case exact may be, without a rate book I'm just guessing here, but anyway they could see that instead of paying $15 a month for a $10,000—20 payment life they could pay maybe $9.00 for a whole life for the same protection. My company will pay the same whether you pay $9 or $15 but the only advantage was after 20 years you didn't have pay anymore, but again it took $15 instead of $9 out of your pocket. And, if you had a larger family and had other obligations, which most people did, something would have to give, unless income in 70 went up and in those years there wasn't that steady income, that steady increase in wages, as some of the industries are getting today. There was no such thing as every year you got a increase, you could get a decrease for a lack of work. The situation as you see today. Nettie: John, may I interrupt at this time? When you are talking about increases maybe you can tell us the difference between Endicott Johnson and IBM—when it came to wages at that period. John: Well, back in—when I graduated from High School in 1930—you been better off going to work for Endicott Johnson because Endicott Johnson had a full medical program and IBM or at that time known as ITR, did not. They made about the same wages excepting in the tanneries where you made bigger money than working in ITR and ITR as I said, had no medical program, as I recall, but EJ or Endicott Johnson did—you went to a hospital you didn't have to worry about a nickel, went to see their doctors, got a prescription filled, had your eyes checked, the only thing I can remember after after your getting your eyes checked—you had to pay for your glasses if you could afford it. If you couldn't, even there, Endicott Johnson would pick up the tab. I remember instances, where people got hurt in car accidents on the highway and Endicott Johnson would send a plane to pick up these people and bring them back to the local hospital at no expense to these people. I seen people at instances where they needed special medical care that was not furnished locally, again—Endicott Johnson would furnish the plane to the patient as well as a family member to fly ‘em to a destination and when were through with their treatments bring them back. And all this and even the living expense of these people was absorbed by Endicott Johnson. However, after World War II IBM became a different ball game—they started to really prosper—you can't say today that they don't have good benefits—they have tops—Endicott Johnson, of course, is also a good corporation today to work for. Does that cover it? Nettie: John, how about going back to the Slovak people? I think it would be interesting if you told us some of the traditions—I think— John: Oh—well—see—what we can—like Easter? Nettie: Yes that would be interesting. John: Well—of course Easters back in our day—when we were kids, especially bring some recollections of the Lent season. First of all, we did not eat meat—generally on two days of the week—Wednesdays and Fridays at all and that was all during the 40 days then during the—course—also those who were of age were generally from 18-60 were supposed to fast—and that is one full meat meal a day and the other just light lunches you might say but that was just what many other religions did too—the Orthodox probably even stricter than the Roman Catholics in their upholding of their Lent. When Easter came there is a custom we want to bring out is that was I would get the pussywillows and my father would braid these pussywillows in a form of a short switch and it was a custom that on Easter, although they tell me in Czechoslovakia it was on Monday, where the men run around and they sort of whip the women, this is sort of reminiscent when Christ being whipped by the Jews before being crucified. It was done in a playful manner when you whipped the girls and the following day on Tuesday, was the girls’ day·to do the same. And this naturally, being a youngster, you go out to see your relatives and close friends, you switch the women folk even some times, kids your age or some little older—naturally would run from you because they didn't want to be beaten but sometimes you get a little too carried away and hit too hard, and the man of the house would naturally give you an egg or an orange or money—a few pennies but—was fun—was fun—because we didn't have much money if we got a few cents at the end of to go to a movie we thought we did pretty good. Matter of fact, this custom we did every year—I had an Italian friend who was very close to us—and he kept asking us if he could go along, finally, one Easter we took him out, then we got him a whip, and, my dad a few extras and he went with us too. (Laughing).  I can still remember the boy's name, I don't know if you want names—but Tony Fanara—neighbor practically to Helen's there—and I can still recall that. Then another custom was at Christmas time—which we would go out—oh—before I go on Christmas. I just want to mention one thing about the young adults—we sort of switched from that switch—that's going to be confusing now on tape but instead of the kobachis we used to call it—we started to using water—we used—seltzer bottles. So I recall we didn't have too many cases where you could do that but we had, I remember Margaret Gondek's folds—she was up to date on these things—wouldn't want us to miss her house so we get up early Sunday morning—Easter morning—and she'd leave the house open so we'd walk in and we knew where the girl's bedroom was already—so we'd go up daybreak and pull the covers and swish the seltzer bottle— Nettie: Good ol’ days. John: Yeah—yeah—but somebody had a wet bed—you call that good ol' days—but maybe they didn't like it—they say they didn't like it—but again—I'm sure but what would you do with a wet bed? Take days to dry out. Nettie: That was youth! John: But that was the fun of youth—yeah—we enjoyed doing that. Next day the fellow—generally the girls took it over the following day—which as I said—the custom was Sunday and Monday—in Europe it was Monday and Tuesday. No… But other than that—oh—church dances when they used to have festivals—like in October—they would have a harvest festival then they would dance in native costume—native dress costumes of the Czechoslovakia. They were different costumes different, depending of what part of Czechoslovakia you came from, seems as though every town had its own style of costumes—kroys—I think they called them. I even got away from term insurance—I never mentioned that yet— Nettie: Do you want to mention it at this time? John: Well, you’re gonna have this interlaced with costumes and other—so you will have to adjust. Nettie: That's all right—you want to mention this term insurance—it's all right. John: You asked a question about the term insurance as I mentioned a—a—on previous discussion—term insurance is insurance that has no cash value at any time—as long as you pay for it—you have the coverage once you cease paying on it, the coverage ceases and that's not immediately because if you paid the current month you don't pay until the next premium, you have 30 days or 31 days—after that all coverage ceases because you didn't pay the premium. Now very few people at the beginning would buy this type of insurance but back in—oh—I think following World War II it became more prevalent because all these servicemen became acquainted with term insurance because that's what we bought as servicemen from the government, term insurance—and that of course, the government said when you got out you can convert to other forms of insurance—which today you can buy almost any type of insurance you want—even with the government you have been in service, so you can have your policies paid up as at a given time—you know—whole life policies which would build up cash reserves. Now that's mainly the difference—much of your—again—another idea of having to understand term insurance, is insurance most industries carry for their employees—is term insurance—builds up no cash reserves. Those who die along the way—their families would benefit by that and those who live have very little coverage in their older years of their life. Nettie: Now some of these insurances you had—was there a high rate of lapsing? John: No, no—because there again—that depended on the agent and how he explained things and how forceful he was to oversell ‘em—and that's how many agents were overzealous with—talk a man into a large amount than he can pay for. So the man may struggle for with one year—or or maybe a 6 month—and the first thing you know lapsing—his policy and couldn't afford it so I was always watchful of that—because I thought—look—I might better sell this man a smaller contract now with the hopes things, if things would improve for him or he can handle this he would not hedge against buying additional coverage as he got a little older. You might have to pay more—but again he knew what he could handle—in other words it's one step at a time. If you use that philosophy I think you found—I found at least that they did better with their insurance program. I didn't have—I never had a high lapse ratio like some of the agents. I was never the top salesman as some of these men were but amount of lapse. I often wondered how they were rated that high but they—I guess— Nettie: John, you told me quite a few interesting things but do you still have any more recollections toward our interview?  John: Well, I really don't think so—I'm not here to—you can't bring EJ back to life like the way it was—we've seen the community replaced by IBM instead of Endicott Johnson—I believed I mentioned in previous discussion all Endicott Johnson did before and if we could have another benefactor like—Endicott—like George F. Johnson—this community—and every community in the United States—it would be wonderful. This man didn't die forgotten—at least in my mind—I've always thought of this man and I always have prayed for this man. He was just a beautiful man—he's a man more people should try to copy. Nettie: Ok—John—thank you for your interview and it was very interesting. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Sedlak Subject The topic of the resource Sedlak, John -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Johnson, George F. (George Francis), 1857-1948; Life insurance agents -- Interviews; Shoes; Italians; Russians; Polish Description An account of the resource John Sedlak discusses his upbringing in Endicott as one of seven children of Czechoslovakian immigrants, his work for Endicott Johnson stores as a shoe clerk, where he learned to understand Italian, Russian, and Polish. He tells of his work for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, including working with immigrants. He compares benefits of Endicott Johnson workers and IBM workers before WWII, and emphasizes the charitable work of George F. Johnson and the Endicott Johnson Corporation. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 53A ; Recording 53B Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sedlak, John ; Politylo, Nettie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-02-03 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 33:56 Minutes ; 11:52 Minutes