71 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a20bfab336130e2d75a3d55096806bd2.mp3 cf30ae8b5895e45b5a0213d13473c3d6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8aefb28975d00d4430b87c7dd1f8a7d6.jpg 92a76cb3569cb5b59109f0ede92c6a46 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-13 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ellyn Uram Kaschak Year of Graduation 1965 Biographical Text Dr. Ellyn Kaschak is an award-winning psychologist, author, teacher and human rights activist. She is a professor emerita of psychology at San Jose State University. She teaches in the gender studies program at University for Peace in Costa Rica. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Ellyn Uram Kaschak Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 13 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Up to you. We can either try to get you on Skype, or we can just do this over the phone. EK: 00:09 Okay, either way, or we can go on FaceTime. You guys [inaudible] FaceTime IG: 00:16 Uh, FaceTime? No, I am here with my colleague, Aynur de Rouen, and so say hello. Third speaker 00:28 Hello. How are you? IG: 00:29 Who is the- yeah, she is the project manager for the oral history project. So should I give you a little bit of overview of what the oral history project is, or should we just plunge into the interview? EK: 00:46 Why do not you give me a short review? IG: 00:48 Okay, so the short review is that we-we are creating a virtual center for the study of the (19)60s. It will exist to promote scholarship on this important decade. And- EK: 01:10 Okay. IG: 01:10 -so we have collections of audio recordings, um, different collections. So one collection is a you is a set of 200 of interviews with 275 prominent leaders from the 1960s representing a range of political affiliations. So we have everyone from yippies to, you know, civil rights leaders like John Lewis and Shirley Chisholm, and there are people who were anti-war activists, as well as Vietnam vets who, you know, willingly went to this war. So that is one collection. The other collection is the collect, you know, the project that you are participating in, and that is a set of oral history interviews with alumni of Harpur College from the 1960s and it is to give. So it is to give a look back on what your experience at Harpur was like and how you perceived the events around you so the larger perspective. So these are, you know, these are tapes right now for oral history that will be transcribed, digitized and placed, excerpted, placed online. We have to ask you for your permission to- Third speaker 02:42 -consent form, and I can email to you. You can either sign it and email back to me, or, if you prefer, I can send it via mail with a paid envelope. So it would be maybe easier for you. Do you want me to do that way? To do that. EK: 03:20 Email is easiest for me. Third speaker 03:22 Email is easy. Okay, I will I will email to you, then EK: 03:27 You will never find me if you should not stand there. Third speaker 03:29 Okay, all right, I will send you an email after the interview this afternoon. IG: 03:35 Okay. EK: 03:36 Okay, good. IG: 03:37 Okay, so are we ready to start? EK: 03:41 Yes, okay, I do not know what is wrong with it. IG: 03:46 It is okay. That is okay. EK: 03:48 So keep going this way. I guess. IG: 03:49 Let us, let us go this way. Okay, so Ellyn, tell- first of all, you need to identify yourself and tell us who you are, where you are and what you are doing by participating in this interview. EK: 04:10 Okay, so this is the actual interview. IG: 04:13 Yes, yes. EK: 04:16 Okay, I am Ellyn Kaschak, and I was a student at Harpur from 1961 to 1965 so I hope it does not mess up the tape too much. So I just sent John, and he said he'd welcome over to somebody a bunch of photographs from the 1960s of the dorms and articles, you know, invitations to dances and things like that that is going on. IG: 04:50 Okay. Do you know who you sent this to? EK: 04:54 I sent it to John. IG: 04:55 I see, I see. EK: 04:56 John um- IG: 04:59 Cook-Cook. EK: 05:00 John Cook. IG: 05:01 Yes. EK: 05:03 And he said he walked him over to the library so somebody has them. IG: 05:07 Okay, I will get them from him. EK: 05:09 And there is a whole bunch of, there is a whole bunch of little odd names from dancers. And I do not know if they still have it, but they used to have the vacation, stepping on the coat ceremony in the spring. IG: 05:22 Oh, that is wonderful. Okay, so you please tell us you want, what is your age? Where are you speaking? Where are you physically located right now? And tell us that you are, you know, participating in this oral history interview. EK: 05:42 I am seventy-four years old. I have been a professor at San Jose State for many years. [coughs] IG: 05:55 We will, we will, but we did not catch what you said last you are 74 years old, and EK: 06:05 I, when I graduated from Harpur, [inaudible] is George Washington University, I see where I got a master's degree in clinical psychology- IG: 06:13 I see. EK: 06:13 -from there, they were not hired at Union, and I could not get a job, and they were not taking union into the PhD programs, even though I was a top of my class. And so I was told that I could not get a PhD because it was a waste of money. And you know, when I would just stay home and have babies? So I worked in DC for a couple of years as a school psychologist, and then times started changing, and I went back to school at Ohio State, got a doctorate, and came out to California to do my internship at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Palo Alto, and then I got a job at San Jose State as a clinical psychologist at a community psychologist. And I stayed there for my whole career, until I retired. IG: 07:02 Okay, so where was that at what state at California state? EK: 07:07 San Jose. San Jose. Oh, San Jose State University. IG: 07:12 State University. I know where that is. EK: 07:15 Yeah. That is right in the middle of Silicon Valley stuff. IG: 07:20 Yes-yes-yes. EK: 07:21 It was [inaudible] and I went there. IG: 07:24 Yeah, I could imagine. So just let us backtrack now to your early life and tell us where you grew up. Where are you from? EK: 07:39 I am from Brooklyn. IG: 07:41 Oh, well, where- EK: 07:44 I spent a few years in Valley Stream before I left, but mostly Brooklyn. IG: 07:47 Where in Brooklyn, if you do not mind my asking. EK: 07:53 Coney Island. IG: 07:54 Oh, I know where that is. So, who were your parents? What did they do? EK: 08:04 My parents were first generation Americans, and they were Celia and Bernard Uram, and they just kicked around and did a lot of things and fun. [coughs] Oh, I apologize. Finally, my father, after I was out of the house, when I was in my 20s, opened a successful business. So- IG: 08:35 Excuse me, a what business? EK: 08:37 A successful business. It was called [inaudible] stores, and it sold [inaudible], it was a discount store. IG: 08:43 Okay. And you said that your parents were first generation from where? EK: 08:50 Well, my grandparents came from Eastern Europe, and they came in 1900s to get away from the [inaudible], so way before Hitler and from Russia and the Austro-Hungarian empire. IG: 09:05 Okay, all right, did your parents go to college? EK: 09:11 No, they just barely finished high school. They had no interest in my going to college, or anybody going to college. They did not even know what it was, and I was the one that consisted on an education. So that was the early days of the scholarships before the government shriveled them. So after the New York State using scholarship and I needed to go someplace inexpensive, of good quality inside New York. So that became Harpur. IG: 09:46 Um, so, how did you persuade your parents to let you go to college? EK: 09:52 Well, I did not. I just went. [inaudible] on me. IG: 09:56 Okay, so, um, uh, you know, so- EK: 10:02 I had the scholarship. I paid for everything myself, and I practiced increasingly, I went to college. IG: 10:09 Well that is, that is very bold, very courageous of you. EK: 10:13 I am bold. IG: 10:14 Bold, courageous. So, um, so EK: 10:20 Like- what I wanted. I did not want to like it. You know, sitting in Brooklyn, owning somebody's children. IG: 10:27 I see. So did you have siblings? Do you have siblings? EK: 10:32 Yes, I did. I have two younger siblings. My sister is three years younger. She eventually went to Stony Brook, and my brother is a high school graduate. IG: 10:42 I see, so did he go into the family business? EK: 10:49 He did not. He had, psychological problems. So he has not worked. IG: 10:55 I see, I understand. So you decided to go to Harpur because of its affordability and because of its reputation? What was the reputation of the college back then? EK: 11:09 The reputation of Harpur was that it was the [inaudible] public schools. It had a great reputation, and it was really just starting up. I do not know how it got a good reputation so fast. So they have just been Triple Cities College a few years before. IG: 11:28 So did you learn about this from your friends, from your academic advisor? Do you remember? EK: 11:37 I do not remember. I needed a lot of research myself, but also had a pretty good values counselor, so you probably helped me. IG: 11:44 Okay and you financed your own education. What did you work during your college education or during the summers? When did you make money? EK: 11:59 I always worked during the summers, and once in a while, I worked during the semesters in the cafeteria, you know, cleaning up the trays in the cafeteria. IG: 12:10 Okay. EK: 12:12 I mean, the campus. I was just here; the campus looks very different. There was one cafeteria, and everybody had to eat on campus. IG: 12:21 What were your first impressions a city girl from Brooklyn, from Coney Island, coming to really the boondocks. So what did you think? EK: 12:39 In the first place, my father was one of those guys that would not use a map, so he drove to Albany and went to the left turn to get to Binghamton. So it took us two days. We pulled up, and it was nothing but mud. There were two, three buildings and mud. "Are you horrified?" I said, "Take me home. I do not be here." And they had not finished the dorms. There were only two dorms, two girls dorms and two guys dorms, and they had not finished them. So they had us tripled up in the dorms for the first semester. So it was, I guess it was after the [inaudible] in a lot of ways. IG: 13:22 So how-how long did it take you to acclimate to these new surroundings, and what helped you? EK: 13:34 Well, it took me a few weeks. I was really depressed in the beginning, and then I started to meet people. I had a boyfriend. I met friends who were also from New York. There was an extreme divide. I do not know if this still is, between the upstate and the downstate students. IG: 13:52 There was a big difference? EK: 13:55 A huge difference. So the downstate students were my friends. They were familiar to me. They were also from Brooklyn or Long Island or the smartest kids in their class and so on. The upstate students were also very [inaudible] were the smartest students I have ever met at any school that I have gone to, and they were smarter than a lot of the faculty where I taught. So I like that. The upstate students were just industrious. They just studied all the time. So the first two roommates that I had, were set the alarm o'clock for six o'clock in the morning, go to the cafeteria, have breakfast and begin studying before their classes. The first time I have ever seen people study like that. IG: 14:43 What were some cultural differences, if any, between the upstate and downstate students? Could you remember any anecdotes? EK: 14:54 Um, the upstate students went to church on Sunday morning, early [inaudible], and they would, they got in couples or in friendship groups, and only used to study in the state union of the library and then study from morning to night. IG: 15:19 And but you, you must have studied as well. I mean, what was your experience of academics at Harpur? How did you- did not you find it rigorous, or did- EK: 15:35 Much more rigorous than anything I had done before. And so I did study, and I wanted to be a psychologist, but the Psychology Department only did rat psychology. The 1960s was the height of Skinnerian psychology, so that meant you studied rats and boxes and not people. So I will tell you an anecdote. We do not have to live for three hours every week, and they eat a little like closet with your rat. Your rat had a fresh bar to get food. I do not know if you are familiar with those kinds of studies. That is Skinnerian psychology, and I became so bored because my rat was asleep. It turns out that rats are not trainer animals, so they sleep all day. So nobody saw the rat in setting up the labs. So I took a pencil and I poked my rat to get it to wake up and do the study psychopaths, of course, and rats [inaudible] with me. And so I went to the whatever it was in the nurse's station at the Student Union. I got a tetanus shot, and I dropped psychology, and I majored in foreign languages. IG: 16:53 What, um. That is very interesting. It echoes some of the experiences of other alumni who studied psychology. They also complained about rat psychology. EK: 17:08 There was no people psychology at all. You could forget about it if you went to that and I wound up majoring in Russian language and literature, which I think was a good start for being a psychologist. Anyway, Dostoevsky, Chekov all of them. IG: 17:24 Yes-yes. That is what I studied as well. EK: 17:28 Did you? IG: 17:29 Yes. EK: 17:29 So as a result, I mean, Russia is coming back before the Russian maybe it will be useful. IG: 17:36 Perhaps. EK: 17:37 An interesting topic to study. IG: 17:40 It is an interesting without question. It is an interesting topic to study. It is an interest. It is a rich literature to study. So you nonetheless, so um, so you were disappointed with sort of the direction of psychology courses. How did you find the Russian literature courses who were some of your professors? EK: 18:08 You know, they had the early professors there that we still had moved over from the community college, so I had, we used to call them by their last names [inaudible] they did not have doctorates, but they were both from Russia, and from [inaudible] IG: 18:37 I see, I see. So you know, how was that? IG: 18:43 It was the Russian department. IG: 18:45 That was the Russian department. How did you find your experience? EK: 18:50 I love languages, so I found it very interesting. IG: 18:53 Did they teach- EK: 18:55 And Russian was much more difficult in psychology, because we had to read War and Peace and all that in the original. IG: 19:02 Really, you read- EK: 19:04 I am probably the only person you know that read War and Peace in the original, but I still have the book. It was a tremendous effort. IG: 19:16 That is, I could imagine, that is extremely impressive. That is an education in itself. EK: 19:21 It was. And then when I finally went back to psychology at Northern Washington University in the people psychology, you still had to take your, you still had to take nine years exams to get an advanced degree. And I took my English, and was a beast. IG: 19:40 I could imagine after reading War and Peace in its entirety, you probably did better. You probably knew more than a lot of the faculty, the Russian faculty there. EK: 19:54 Probably I do not recommend it. I mean, it is really origins, but I need to learn a lot. I was very happy with the major, because I got to know languages, and then I did psychology later on, and it really showed me instead, because of the rigorousness of Harpur, is what really changed me. I was from one of those school [inaudible] in high school. It really changed me into taking education really seriously and studying and being prepared and so on. IG: 20:25 So um, you um, studied Russian very intensively. You worked in the cafeteria and in the summers to pay your way through college. But you- did you participate in residential life? What was that like for you? EK: 20:49 Residential life was not much. We had, you know, that was we had a paid-telephone in the hall, and that was the only telephone so everybody's boyfriends would go in in the evening, we had a curfew. I believe it was 10:30. There was a curfew for the girls, not for the guys. So everybody would say good night at 10:30 and then the phone would start ringing. But there was only one phone, and so residential life, as I remember it now, revolve around a lot, around the [inaudible], and what fraternity did he belong to, and what dances you went to, and things like that. IG: 21:31 And you mentioned you had a boyfriend. EK: 21:35 Yes, I did. IG: 21:35 And so what-what life did he expose you? EK: 21:42 He, um [inaudible] is actually his name. I kept his name. [inaudible] Uram was actually my family's name. IG: 21:53 Oh, that is very interesting. EK: 21:56 So and I just actually saw his sister for the first time. And, I do not know how many years, I just did a TED talk last year. I hope maybe you were there. IG: 22:10 I know I was not there. I so I miss your talk. So- EK: 22:19 I just saw her for the first time in years, and his parents had gone, but she still felt like family to me. So he was a townie, what we used to call a townie, yes. Oh, and he commuted, and he lived at home with his parents. So being that he commuted, they got him a car. So that was like the epitome he had a car. We could go places. We could go out on dates. He we used to drive all over upstate New York. I do not know if [inaudible] still there. It was a monastery. IG: 22:56 Yes, I visited it. EK: 22:58 It was a beautiful experience. It is like we used to do things like that quite a bit together, especially on the weekends. And he studied and also worked this whole time [inaudible]. And his mother worked in- as a waitress in the Arlington Hotel. I do not know if it is still there. Third speaker 23:21 What hotel? EK: 23:21 It was one of those ugly buildings, and she gave him all his money so he could go out and date and do things like that. So we had a pretty good time. And I was close to his family, because they were right there. So I go spend Christmas with the family and so on. And most of the activities centered around what they called Men's social clubs. They did not have fraternities. There was no football they were going to be principal and not have a football team, not have fraternities and so on. So but they had men's social clubs. And so most of the activities were for [inaudible] and then on social clubs, and then the big dances. EK: 23:21 The Arlington hotel, it was downtown. Third speaker 23:21 No, I do not know. Third speaker 24:08 I have a question. So how did you feel about having a curfew because boys did not have it, girls had it. So how did it make you feel about it? EK: 24:21 You know, we did not question it that much of the time. It was 1961. Boys could and also the boys could live off campus. And we did not like it that we were not, you know, like we'd [inaudible] know about it. And a lot of the girls used to sneak out after they did it, they did a great check at 10:30 and then they climb out the window and go over to their boyfriend's place. EK: 24:42 So, it was accepted that the way girls had to be treated, and it was a little bit of a joke, because the idea was, you know, you told me you cannot get pregnant before 10:30. You know, so it was a little bit of a joke, but we took it kind of as a joke. Nobody took it that seriously. Nobody was strongly into feminism or anything. EK: 24:42 Yeah, it is interesting. IG: 25:11 Was that was feminism or the women's right movement in the air at all? EK: 25:20 Not in Binghamton. IG: 25:22 But at Harpur? EK: 25:25 No-no, not really, not really. We had some very interesting guests that came and talked to us. And so there was a lot of politics in the air, mostly Vietnam politics. [inaudible] good news. He was a very well-known writer, and he came to campus. And when the Roosevelt came to campus and he did not have any money, she charged a lot of money, and one of the student leaders told me, we do not have money left to [inaudible] And she [inaudible] limousine one day and hung out with everybody. IG: 26:04 That is great. That is great. EK: 26:06 But there was not much about feminism. The females were all there to get to get a husband and a degree. IG: 26:19 Well, you found it you know your boyfriend, and then who became your husband. Were there? Was there anxiety about the Vietnam War, and how did it express itself? And as his- EK: 26:36 Tremendous anxiety about the Vietnam War, because that was the age of the guys that were getting drafted. And so there were two ways not to get drafted. And one used to go to graduate school. [inaudible] to get in and keep studying, and the other was to get married. So a lot of people were getting married to keep the guy out of the war. A lot of my friends got married last year, and also the pill have just come out control, a- EK: 27:11 Birth control. EK: 27:12 So a lot of them, you know, even technical version in those days, the technical discussion how old you are now? IG: 27:22 Well, [crosstalk] I see, I see. EK: 27:27 And so a lot of the girls once they decided marrying a guy,[coughs] [inaudible] enjoy birth control, so they got pregnant, and the girls dropped out of the guy finished school. So a lot of my female friends went home last year to have their babies. IG: 27:50 Unmarried or married? EK: 27:51 Married, they slept with the guy only because he became engaged and they knew he was the one they were going to marry. Otherwise, she did not have sex with anybody. [inaudible] marry him, then the sexual thing has changed drastically. IG: 28:07 Yes, I agree. So was- were you involved at all in student activism, was there were any of your friends involved in student activism, and what was the nature of that? EK: 28:29 Listen very much. There was a small group of students from the city that were involved in activism, and most people mostly people, I think, kept themselves into their own group. IG: 28:49 So- EK: 28:49 And some-some activism in that Vietnam and that was all these, nothing, I remember, nothing about feminism. IG: 29:01 What about the Civil Rights Movement? EK: 29:04 Well, the civil rights movement, yes, definitely, and we will let anybody who went in March, I met, I actually worked on Shirley Chisholm presidential campaign that was already in California. IG: 29:19 That is very interesting. [crosstalk] yeah, she is one of the people we have interviewed in our 60s collection. EK: 29:34 She was not really the first woman to do anything, and she really was a tough woman, history [inaudible] president. Then I was already in California, doing my internship. And once I got to California, I got I was not very aware of politics. I was just doing my own life. And when I was at Hartford, once I got to California, there was civil rights. It was Vietnam, there was black people running for offices, all kinds of stuff, and there was the abortion coalition. That was the first big issue of feminism. IG: 30:10 Was that in the (19)70s, when did you get to California? EK: 30:15 Got to California in the late (19)60s, maybe 1968 and they had started. I was in Ohio. Oh, I know- Ohio until 1968 studying psychology, and that is when the consciousness raising groups began. And so we all got ourselves in the consciousness raising group, and all became feminists, and there were no courses in psychology of women at all. They let us organize someone and teach without a faculty member, but all the faculty were men, and they did not have any idea what we were doing. So when I became a feminist, it was in the mid (19)60s. I had already, I was maybe four years out of Harpur. I was not going on while I was in Harpur. IG: 31:17 So there were no- you did not really have that much of a political awareness at that time at Harpur? EK: 31:31 [crosstalk] interested in learning and in having fun- EK: 31:38 -and that is the way I use race, that you pay attention to your own life and you do not get involved in this other stuff. My entire family is still that way. I am the only one who's political, and I became very political. I wrote in several books on [inaudible] psychology. IG: 31:38 In having fun. IG: 31:54 That is remarkable. What did you think owes to this? You know, radical departure from the way you were brought up. Is it the academic experience that you were exposed to, or what-what do you think contributed to your enlightenment? EK: 32:18 I think I academically studied and just like they call it quickly, study this stuff, and all of a sudden you realize that this is not a normal world. This is a world that you will be impressed. And so that moment, it just feels normal. Well, of course, blacks cannot go into places that whites go into. And you know, I looked at in the south, so I never really saw that. But, you know, females cannot be used, men keeping it and so on. And all of a sudden, you read the material, and there is a huge quick in your head, and you see that it is not normal, and it is not just the way the world is, the way the world will be constructed. And once you see that, you see it can all be reconstructed and reconstructed, and you know, the same again. IG: 33:09 Did you that is very interesting. Did you learn any of these intellectual skills? Do you believe at Harpur College? Did you get any of the sort of, you know, foundational, you know, intellectual, intellectual foundation for this, to make that leap? EK: 33:34 I would say, not in the sense of content, but in the sense of thought process. Because what I began to do the work that I do, I was not a therapist for too long, even though I studied therapy, but what I write is epistemology and philosophy of science. So what I wanted to do was to ask the questions. And that is what those fields are. You know, why? How do we know what we know? Is it makes a question of epistemology, and I have written several books on that topic. And I just, I actually just wrote one of the blind people who are, how do they understand gender and race? And that was my question. How do they know what they know they cannot see skin color. They cannot see any other stuff. Yet, they really need to know about all those things. IG: 34:27 So I am just curious. So how do they know? How do they perceive race? EK: 34:33 They asked their friends, you see, when I started writing the book, I was hoping that they were going to have a different system, not that they were not going to discriminate, because they were human beings, but they were going to have a different system, maybe touch, maybe something else. No, they go around and they ask their friends and then have this whole elaborate way of asking, like, if they go to a bar and they need a woman there. Her, they have a similar [inaudible], and when he shakes hands to tell them if she is pretty or ugly, so they know whether to go out with her. IG: 35:10 But they must have experienced discrimination themselves. EK: 35:15 You know, many of them did not, because they went to schools and they were all mixed together. I mean, they got to the A's when they started dating, they would bring home a boy, and the mother would say, you cannot date that boy. He is not of your race. And that is when they started learning. IG: 35:32 I see. Was there, yeah- EK: 35:36 Very startling to read about how they learn about race and gender and sexual orientation. We have a lot of stuff about transgender going on now, and they cannot tell the difference because the voice is the same. So the transgender things that are going on are just visual. And so I came to realize how much of our society is an issue. IG: 36:03 That is, that is very That is fascinating. EK: 36:09 That is actually what my Tiktok was on. It is unusual. IG: 36:14 I-I will look at it after we speak. But returning to Harpur College, did you feel that there were groups, you know, or individuals that were discriminated? Did you have, well, you probably did not have this idea of discrimination per se, but did you feel that it was there was, you know, maybe less of it because it was a homogeneous community, or was there any, any kind of discrimination on campus? EK: 36:53 There was not much. The students from downstate were almost 100 percent Jewish. Ones from upstate were almost 100 percent capital Protestant. EK: 36:58 They did not mix with each other. They did not think about marrying each other. I had friends that I do not know if you have spoken to Dolores Chapel yet. IG: 36:58 Yeah. IG: 37:09 No. EK: 37:11 She knows she is [inaudible]. IG: 37:13 Yeah, I am writing down her name. Okay. EK: 37:16 She was somebody that used to speak to; she was married to Giles Hoyt and he became a German professor. She was growing another guy ever since high school from her hometown, which was Tonawanda. When it got time to marry, she converted Catholicism, and they broke up after 10 years of dating, and she married somebody else, sure he did too. So the big discrimination was between religions, and it was not just Jewish and Catholic and Protestant, also. the, uh, I do not believe there were any other groups on campus. Everybody was white. Two men who came from Barbados and must have been on scholarship. So they were not Americans, and they did not stay very long. What happened is that one of my friends began dating, one of them, and her father happened to be a photographer, and so she sent, she only sent her pictures home to be developed. Remember, they used to develop pictures. He saw that she was sitting on the lap of a black man, and he pulled her out of school and made her come to Hofstra so and there were two black men. There were maybe 400 students in each class, if I remember correctly, and everybody else was white, if you consider [inaudible] used to be white. IG: 38:55 I am laughing. And yet, Ellyn, you married, you know, someone who was a townie. I married a Catholic boy. So isn't that kind of a very rebellious, you know, decision to have made, and- EK: 39:18 Yes. You seem to getting to know me, I was not rebellious, I just do what I want to do. And especially then, it was like that. And also, I had dated him for four years, but my family should have been ready for it. IG: 39:33 Right. Have they? EK: 39:34 You know, I met him in freshman year. IG: 39:37 Yeah, had they met him? EK: 39:39 But neither of us had any particular variation. IG: 39:49 So did you encounter any resistance from either of the families? EK: 39:56 My family. IG: 39:57 Yeah, yeah. But you prevailed. EK: 40:04 It was not a horrible resistance to say, he knew they could not control me by that point. IG: 40:10 I-I guess not. EK: 40:13 Yeah, I was going to do what I was going to do. So we got married, and part of the reason we got married, this is a funny anecdote that you are making me think of it is they had $250 round trip. You could go to Europe for the summer. It was a shorter flight. And I said, I cannot go to Europe. I do not marry him. We cannot travel around Europe. It is not like today. And so the week before graduation, we got married, week after we went and spent some [inaudible]. IG: 40:45 I have known people to get married for lesser reasons. EK: 40:53 That is the main reason that I married him. IG: 40:56 Well, you know, if you read contemporary Soviet literature, you know, there is stories by Trifonov [Yury Trifonov] about, you know, couples marrying because somebody had a- an apartment in a prime neighborhood- EK: 41:18 Oh yeah, [inaudible] IG: 41:21 -apartment with an extra room. So-so I am curious, how do you think that your classmates remember you from Harpur College days? EK: 41:32 A lot of the people I was friendly with had graduated, most of the New York City kids who went back the second year we could not take it in Binghamton, so a lot of us did not graduate together. There are fewer in touch with Peter Carroll Oliver [inaudible] or Erin Oliver, IG: 41:53 No. EK: 41:56 Well, you missed. IG: 41:58 No. I mean, I- no, I do not. EK: 42:01 I do not know if you want to list the people in general. IG: 42:04 That would be wonderful. That would be wonderful, but I need to speak to graduates, I think. But it would be really wonderful to get a list from you. EK: 42:18 Carol graduating from there. Bruce Benderson graduated from there. He became a writer, and he lives in Paris and writes in French. IG: 42:27 Oh, wow. EK: 42:27 So he'd be an interesting guy. Yes. Carol Oliver became a one of those Maharishi people, and she lives in Iowa at Maharishi University. IG: 42:41 That is great. EK: 42:43 And, you know, there was a lot of hippie stuff going on. IG: 42:48 Was there experimentation drugs? EK: 42:56 There was not much drugs. I remember Cal gave me for a wedding present, a nickel bag of grass. To translate into current lingo, a nickel bag was like $5 worth of marijuana. That was a wedding present for me, and I had never seen it before. I did not know what to do with it. There was not much in the way of drugs. It was a lot of alcohol. IG: 43:23 A lot of alcohol. So but my question was more, what do you think that? How do you think your classmates would remember you? How do you remember yourself from that period? EK: 43:46 I remember myself as mostly being [inaudible] and his friends and studying and socializing and not being anything. So I am not sure how many of them would remember me, except the ones that I was close to. Names that I am hearing you will definitely remember me. IG: 44:10 So you are in touch with these other people? EK: 44:13 Not in touch with some of them, but some of them even come up on Facebook and see what they are doing. The reason I know about Giles and Dolores is when John first came out here with some [inaudible] he was trying to give some money to the German department or something. He was a German major, IG: 44:36 And his name is Giles? IG: 44:38 All right. EK: 44:38 And I do not think I got along with him very well, because they do not set the alarm to six o'clock in the morning to get up and study it. I was like, "Are you people crazy?" So, you know, because they had, they had fair people often with what we get along well as roommates. And when I did finally get the roommate, they had fairly rich. They were right. We did not get along. Oh, here is another funny story. Her name was, I mean, I do not know how much detail you want. Her name was Sophia Kashack, K, A, S C H, A, K, and she sat next to Bob in orientation. His name was Kaschak, and she fixed me up on a blind date with him. That is how I met him. So [inaudible] EK: 44:38 Giles G, I, L, E, S, and his last name is H, O, Y, T, and the wife [inaudible] I guess, I guess she took his name. Her name was Doris. She was my roommate. She was my first roommate. IG: 45:39 I am- And so Kaschak, how do you spell that again? K, A- EK: 45:45 My version? IG: 45:46 Your version EK: 45:47 K, A, S, C HA, K IG: 45:51 So similar to yours? With [crosstalk] yeah, I understand. So, what do you think you know kind of looking back on this experience at Harpur College, what lessons did you learn from life at this time, from this time? EK: 46:15 Well, the thing that was most important to me is how intelligent the students were, that I finally there had people I could have conversations with, you know, on the equal level, and that there were other people in the world who thought about the things that I thought about and wanted to do the things that I wanted to do. And I think that really served me a lot because that brought me out of my shell. In some way, it made me realize all the things that was possible to do. So in some ways, I would say there were a few good faculty members, but mostly it was the other students for me. IG: 47:00 And you were kind of, you found yourself, you were coming into your own, or you were finding yourself. EK: 47:06 I was, I did find myself. I very much came into my own. My retirement on psychology. I had quite a bit of confidence and so forth. IG: 47:17 That is wonderful. EK: 47:20 I did not have that when I went to Harpur, I was just kind of beaten down and told not to go to college and get married and all that. Love to see some of those people again, but it would be a shock. I am sure you think that you look exactly the same and everybody else has changed. IG: 47:45 I am sure that there would be there you would find common ground if you were friends during your formative years at college, I think that there would be a connection still. EK: 47:57 I think so too. And a lot of them went on to be writers, and a couple of them from, you know, in Hollywood, Richie Cunningham and what is the other guy's name, there were a few graduates eventually- the usual audience are very-very big Hollywood producers, Rob Reiner and people that you would know. IG: 48:27 Wow. It would be so helpful. So to get a list, a short list, EK: 48:35 You do not have those names. IG: 48:36 I have those names, but I cannot identify them from lists of hundreds of people. So if you [crosstalk] I just have a whole directory. And the year they graduate I do not have, I-I- you know, you are pinpointing the people that would be very interesting for me to talk to, and I think for posterity, to have- EK: 48:59 Yeah, people that went on to be very well known in Hollywood, to be very good writers. I cannot think of that. It is not coming to me right now, but it will. IG: 49:09 Okay that it would be really great. So you know, for-for someone listening to this tape. And you know, considering-considering, you know, the considering going to Binghamton University in just in a future generation. What could you tell this prospective student about your experience and about-about what are the most important lessons that you have learned in life that relate to education? EK: 49:52 You know, it is hard for me to say, because Binghamton is so different. It was like a small I wanted a small college room. I would get to know everybody, and it would be like a community, and that is what it was. And now I do not even know any people that were there, but it is overwhelming to come to the campus. I was extremely impressed. John took me around, but it seems like they have a lot of really fascinating opportunities and summer programs and things like that that I was very impressed with, and I still think the students are very bright. EK: 50:27 Yeah. EK: 50:27 I think it is very important. I do not know. I cannot, I cannot really say, because I was there for two days. I think it is very important. From what I understand, the faculty is very good right now. Also, I met Russian Studies faculty, that is kind of what I am interested in. And I met Don and Harvey and [inaudible] studies faculty, Liam Mueller and whatever it is, and they are very enthusiastic and very motivating. But I think at least for me, the most important thing were the other students, the first time in my life, the other students were as smart as I was, and able to have the conversations I wanted to have, and that is really what changed me. EK: 51:18 But I could not hear it now. EK: 51:28 It does not even does not even look the same. IG: 51:30 Yeah. EK: 51:30 You will see some of the pictures because they sent a picture of the student union and the old dorms, which I can go offices now. And it is a completely different place. It would be hard for me to comment on it now. I think it is a top education. IG: 51:44 Yes, that is a wonderful plug, but your criticism or your advice to future administrations is to have a greater diversity of students and faculty. Is that it? EK: 52:01 I think they have it now, I looked at it when I was there. IG: 52:04 Yes, okay. EK: 52:06 I was just there last March when I did the TED talk and I said, "Oh my god, they have every city, every color, every other people." I think they have done it. IG: 52:15 They have done it. EK: 52:16 Without my advice, IG: 52:17 Without your advice. EK: 52:21 Because the world has changed so much. IG: 52:23 Yes, it has. EK: 52:25 You know, you cannot do that. IG: 52:28 I have. EK: 52:29 I was very impressed by the administrators and the faculty that I met. I met a few students because I gave a scholarship for summer work with women. So I met that student and some of the students had questions. They came to talk to me. IG: 52:44 That is wonderful. Any concluding remarks? Ellyn, I know that you are braving your cold so we can end now after an hour, but I would like to ask you if you had if you have any concluding thoughts or remarks, EK: 53:08 [inaudible] and also feel free to call me again when I am not sick, if you need other comments or other names or something. I am just getting over that horrible [inaudible]. So that is what this caution is about. I live in, oh, I live in Costa Rica now. IG: 53:28 Oh, that is incredible. EK: 53:31 Just here for a few weeks to take care of taxes and business. And so I went down to Costa Rica when I was in George Washington, and got to know the place, and I have been teaching there and training students and training therapists throughout probably four decades. In addition to being here, I split my time. IG: 53:50 So what are, what are the university that you are teaching at in Costa Rica? EK: 53:57 It is called the University for Peace, and it is the United Nations campus. There are four of them in the world. They bring students in from- this is how much I changed from back then. They bring students in from all over the world, and they teach them skills that hopefully are, you know, conflict resolution, and skills that are hopefully helpful in bringing about peace. And they send them back to their countries. They become diplomats, they become presidents of their countries, and it is one way to try to bring about peace. And they are wonderful students. IG: 54:32 That is wonderful. And what do you teach them? You teach them what? EK: 54:38 I teach gender and peace. My- I have got my [inaudible] to be, you know, gender and ethnicity and sexual orientation, pretty much, but as a clinical psychologist, so I teach them those topics and how they handle their peace issues. IG: 54:55 What a wonderful life. EK: 54:58 It is fabulous. I love it there. It turned out to be [inaudible]. And I keep writing I just have a look at so- I could say that about Harpur also got me started on exactly the life I wanted to have and I was meant to have. IG: 55:14 That is very gratifying to hear. EK: 55:18 And I am thinking now about getting some kind of donation to a program, because I am really grateful that they starting out. IG: 55:25 Well, I if-if I can, I will pass that information to John Koch, and he will be delighted. I am sure. EK: 55:35 I have noticed him very well. I have met with him several times, working on what project I can do. He is a lovely man. IG: 55:41 I will, I will let him know. EK: 55:45 Okay, and if you need to find me, yeah, like an ocean sound, okay? IG: 55:50 I will. I will, in a few days, I will email you for those names. I taken some down, but I, I am, I will, I will do a follow up, EK: 56:02 Okay, and take the coughing out of my tape. IG: 56:04 I will, we will, we will. Okay, thank you so much. EK: 56:12 Happy to talk to you again anytime you want to. IG: 56:15 Thank you so much. Get better soon. EK: 56:18 Thank you. IG: 56:19 Bye, bye. Take care. Bye, bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ellyn Uram Kaschak Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Ellyn Kaschak is an award-winning psychologist, author, teacher and human rights activist. She is a professor emerita of psychology at San Jose State University. She teaches in the gender studies program at University for Peace in Costa Rica. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaschak, Ellyn Uram ; Gashurov, Irene Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ellyn Kaschak.mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Language A language of the resource eng Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-13 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 56:23 minutes Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/137134ed55d700a93f9f06ef171f748a.mp3 6ca72646c329d32f82d13afcd4932890 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4d956c0161c37f66750e6f48cb63a05c.mp3 3d403180cca00615621c6586362fc382 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/85d33821d20ae8651bb0036fde35ef0a.mp3 2822a9d7a5ef6cb03d9ccf004c940a6e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/70a4d035ccc30f397276258c6bde9685.mp3 b3629bcb161497d458c00affb8a43cd5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Planck, Elodia de Hoyos Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1978-08-14 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:06 Minutes ; 4:11 Minutes ; 14:48 Minutes ; 36:19 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56002">Interview with Elodia de Hoyos Planck</a> Subject LCSH Planck, Elodia de Hoyos -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees - -Interviews; Cigar industry; Nearly New Shop; China Painting; Patronesses Ladies of Charity; Mexican culture Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Elodia de Hoyos Planck Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo Date of interview: 14 August 1978 Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Elodia de Hoyos Planck of Glenwood Road, Binghamton, NY, on August 14 ,1978. Elodia, will you please tell me about life and experiences in the community? Elodia: I came to the United States in 1931 with my parents, two brothers and sister and we came to San Antonio, Texas. We lived there three years and then a friend of my father's that lived in Endicott asked him to come here because he thought, that during the Depression, and he thought it would be better for us to be here and we, he sent a taxi, a limousine taxi after us. We started to work, my sister worked as a nurse's aide, I started to work in the cigar factory and my brother worked in the restaurant. My dad worked wherever he could, and of course, he worked for EJ for a while. I met my husband in 1933 and we got married in 1936, and since then I have been living here in Binghamton, for, since 1931. What would you like to, what else would you like to ask me, Nettie? Nettie: At this point, I would like to ask you, you say you had worked in the cigar factory, what did you do there? Elodia: I used to be spotter—they used to call them spotters. I used to spot the bad cigars and, then, throw them out and see that they were perfect. Nettie: How did that procedure go about? Elodia: They had boxes with trays on them, and each tray consisted of so many cigars, 24 cigars, and then I would see that every one was perfect and then they, of course, would send to different parts of the world, you know, United States and even out of the United States. Nettie: I mean, what would you do if you saw something wasn't just right? Elodia: I throw it away—we usually, they would sell them for as not perfect, imperfect. Nettie: All you would have to do is to spot them if they are good or bad, right? You didn't actually have to fix the cigar? Elodia: No, no. Nettie: Just have to spot them. Elodia: Just to spot them. Nettie: Where was that located? Elodia: That was on Emma Street where later on—ah—ah—Ansco took over because the cigar factory—ah—ah went out of business. Nettie: What was the name of the cigar factory? Do you remember? I asked several people and they just cannot remember the name. Elodia: I could find out for you from a friend, her father was a foreman there—I can't remember the name of it. I go back and look at my records. Nettie: Did you work there very long? Elodia: No, I think I worked there three years and then, of course, when they closed why then I went to work for EJ. Nettie: I think most people did that, didn't they?  Elodia: Yes, that was a Godsend—EJ was a very good place to work for, at those times. I worked at different jobs—stitching and different jobs. Then let me see—I was going to tell you—I went to school in Endicott—night school for a year and after that I taught myself to read and write. My mother and dad lived in Binghamton, then, of course, when I got married and lived in Binghamton, since then. Nettie: How many children did you have? Elodia: I have three children. One is in Ann Arbor and he is an engineer, and then, I have one is in Mexico City who work for—sh—someone some company who is connected with United States they sell hospital things—he's like a market researcher and my youngest son, Ernest, is an engineer—he worked for Ansco. He was laid off and now works for Universal Instrument. He has two children, also and let's see I became involved after—I became involved after my children left home. I became involved with the Ladies Patronesses—Ladies of Charity is an organization that helps the community—especially the First Ward—and we do various things like—ah—we have a store, clothing store, that we help the poor with also we give good to the needy, and we do eye exam—not examinations—but it's the—ah—we go and test the children in schools for eye defects, among other things, that's we do we help—we are associated with Catholic Charities. I was president in 1972 and then I became involved with china painting and I do that as a hobby, also, sometimes I sell it in order to get more china. I enjoy that very much. Nettie: Elodia, how did you get involved in this china painting? Elodia: Well—friend of mine asked me if I would like that. There was a teacher in Hillcrest, Mrs. Gregory of Gregory Avenue and she is 87 years old. She is one of the best in the country. I took probably between four and five years with her and she is unable to paint now but she's one of the best. Nettie: What is the procedure of your china painting? How do you go about this china painting? Elodia: OK—china painting—I get the green china—it is not the green china—I get the china from the different factories—stores, rather out of town. First, I put my pattern on with a special pencil, then proceed with painting. Some patterns you have to fire them three or four times or more and china is getting very high price now—of course, gold is very expensive, so we are trying not to paint with gold—the way they used to do years ago. It is very intricate work and of course, we like to say that we are porcelain artists not china painters—we are porcelain artists because we do it—on porcelain. I go to seminars, you know, in different places like Syracuse or wherever they are near once a year to see other teachers paint and it is a very lost art which is coming back quite rapidly, which is quite interesting. Nettie: Elodia, where was this started this art from England—the history about this? Elodia: Well, as far as I remember it was started in England in 1500s—I think it was (if you could give me a minute I can look it up). Nettie: No, we do not need to know exactly. Elodia: All right—what they used to do—they used to be very secretive about it—they didn't want anyone to know about it and they started to do china painting mostly with decal and then they would gold it or paint shadows on it and they they would gold it—and then there was one vase that Louis XV had—even when he died it was worth like $2200 and that has been—since then, of course, there had been lot of painters that have come mostly from England and France, Germany, but we are rapidly becoming one of the first in this business—Americans, we are really going strong on that. Nettie: Now, when you make your paintings, do you do this free hand or—? Elodia: I can—most of the times I do—lot of times—sometimes if I want to copy some very old pattern—I can—put some, you know, from that pattern I want. I rather have my own patterns because then it is so much easier than if I am trying to copy it—copying is much harder than doing it yourself. Nettie: When you do it yourself, it is more you, right, or it is original. Elodia: Yes, yes—authentic. I am very interested in doing lamps. I'm trying to match old lamps, painting the globes. I have had very good success with making four of them and I find that some of the colors are very hard to copy—there isn't the color as they used to be—because some of those red colors require lot of gold in them so they are very hard to fire—if you fire them to a higher degree than your cone specifies you can have a disaster—they'll melt with even 50° over it—so it is very complicated when it comes to glass. Nettie: When you are painting—are the paints made out of vegetables? Years ago they did— Elodia: No, the paints are—isn't that funny I read it when I was studying—it's gotten away from me but they are in powder form—then we have a special oil that we mix it with then we paint with oil and turpentine along. Ah—let me see what I can tell you anything else about it—painting— Nettie: Is this lady, Mrs. Gregory, originally from England? Elodia: No, Mrs. Gregory was born here, right on Gregory Ave. They had a farm there—her and husband—and let me see—she started when she was 14 years old and she's 87 years old now—so, she painted up to about two years ago when her heart—she had a heart attack but she still paints. Every once in a while—she still paints and she took lessons from—ah—ah—Mrs.—again I have to look in my notes—anyhow this woman that she took lessons from went to NY and took lessons from Mrs. Provost, her name was, she took lessons from a woman in NY—she stayed a week and it cost her $500—at that time—which was about 65 years ago, something like that. When he came to Binghamton, Mrs. Gregory took two year lessons and she is—she is just an artist—a very gifted person and could draw very good without getting any education. The same teacher had her paint—you know—whole sets of dishes, painted a whole lot of sets—now she put patterns on two of my set of dishes. One is in—the boy in Mexico City has it—he had it—now it’s for 7 er 8 place setting and of course, platters sugar, creamer, etc. He had it appraised and they offered him $8000 in Mexico. He was so proud, he wanted to insure it and but he wanted to know just what it was worth and he insured it—they told they would gladly give him $8000. So I'm very proud of that. I have three sets myself—you know, of course my other son has a set that I did for him. Nettie: Sounds interesting. Elodia: It is—and of course it is very relaxing like some people relax with crochet and others with you know, knitting, you know and I relax with china painting. Nettie: Elodia, since you came from Mexico it is always intriguing to me to ask something about the customs of Mexico. Elodia: Well, let's see we have three—uh—three kinds of people—elite, middle class and poor. Even today, they still have the same customs and I know some foreigners, some people, think we are cruel because we had maids—but we always take care of the maids—my mother never had less than three maids—of course, at the time when we were there—why they were very cheap to have—like $20 a month plus room and board—but my mother always saw that they were taught to read and write and she always gave them a day off—she clothed them—she made clothes for her whenever she could or bought clothes for her—at those days most of them were done by hand—the sewing and that’s one of the customs—they are much harder to get now because they are going to factories—but the factories are taking advantage of them because knowing they are ignorant—you know—they take advantage of them and really they are much better off being a maid in people's houses. Now, my son has a maid—she made the mistake by having a child out of wedlock but my son built a little room for her with a shower and, you know, shower and bedroom—he takes care of the child—same time she is—maid in his home. So, you know, some of the poor are alleviated that way—now you know, people go to Mexico and they say, "Oh, there is so much poverty,'' but it isn’t true because in a sense this government cannot instruct them or get through to them that they will help them if they need help. They'd rather beg than accept government help. Now in the past 20 years Mexico has progressed in education very well—the universities in Mexico are free—like universities—like the college here like SUNY and Broome—and they are free but naturally they have to still pay room and board but free tuition. Now—there still—especially in the small cities they're still ten years behind United States. Of course, we have imitated you in a lot ways because of course, your ways are better. I find Americans are very willing to help us—to help the Mexican people. One of the things—I admire about the Americans they are not selfish—they are very unselfish and well we have learned a lot from you and I think—I—we have a lot better relationships than we had years ago. Customs—let's see we still have the elite—still marry with the high class of people—sometimes for convenience, not all time—I think they're changing too—where the girls couldn't go out without a chaperone, now they could go—alone—now and they're no more lenient towards that—but we still have a lot the customs we had before—like we still wear black if someone dies for two or three months according to relative—we are very close families—we always have uncles, aunts, cousins, second cousins, third cousins—we are very close together—we keep track of each other—usually when we have gatherings, we—it’s usually just the family—because it’s so big—because we always say, “oh well, it’s the third cousin—we have got to have him.” Now let me see—Northern Mexico is very arid—very hot—the middle part which is Mexico City and up to the coast of Acapulco is very lush—then you have Yucatán and Degalt, also very arid—is very hot and lot of poverty—a lot of poverty in that region—they're trying to—you know—make life better for them—well, it takes years and years especially, the Indians, they still live in little huts, you cannot make them change because they think the hut since it is made with palm hedged roofs—why they think it is much cooler and they go through the same thing that their grandfather, their great grandfather taught them to do and they till the land with such primitive tools. You just can't change them—they just don't want to change—some do come to the city, they're miserable when they come to the city—people will say, "Gee, look at those poor things”—they're not poor—they like to be themselves—this is the way they were taught by their parents—they just don't know any other way. If they have enough to eat and a roof over their heads they don't care for anything else. Nettie: Elodia, tell me something about the social life. Elodia: Of the government or of the people? Nettie: The social life of the people. Elodia: Well we have, of course, the fiestas like you have—like the 4th of July—this comes in which is 16th of September, there. We have fireworks, we have parades, we have almost the same things that you have. Our most important time is Christmas time, of course, Easter time too. They are two special events for us. They are, Christmastime 16th to 24th, we have a custom that we go from—different families get together and we go to Mass at 6 o'clock—we have special ceremonies and then after that we have a late supper—a 12 o'clock supper—like a 12 o’clock supper—that goes on until the 24th and on the 24th we have, of course, have a big feast like we have here. Now we have trees but before we had altars because it was hard to come by. It is very religious time. Even now they have about 80% are Catholics—there is quite a few Protestants now but predominant are Catholics. We have—in the part that I come from they have a little celebration 5th of May—it is the beginning of the crops—and all the Indians or the poor people there's a group of people, just like the Knight of Columbus, they get together, dress like the Indians used to, they have a Mass—in fact my mother donated like a little grotto to the out of town so they could have their feast there—and they still dance all those dances—they are colorful—this is only for the 5th of May and they bring their bread and some of the legumes, some of their crops to be blessed by the priests. All day long they have different dances—they have like a carnival atmosphere—you know, this is very important—they have mariachis which—a mariachi is a fellow—is group of young men or men who play different tunes of Mexico—usually they are primitive dances, you know, primitive dances—primitive music. They still are going on with all that. Nettie: For social life— Elodia: We still have dances at home or in halls, always with music. They still have serenades. They still serenade their girlfriend and if they are engaged why they bring three or four musicians and they sing under the window. Then of course, is is the custom the parents ask the young man and the musicians in for chocolate or something like that. Nettie: It Is romantic! (Laughing). Elodia: It's romantic—and it's always two or three o'clock in the morning because by then they had two or three drinks and are, of course, feeling gay and romantic and sing to them. Of course, we have the bullfights. Some people think it’s very cruel—but those bulls are trained just for that—they trained them—they bring them from Spain, sometimes—they train them to be very ferocious—a man has to know what he is doing in order to defend himself from the bull—of course, it is customary to kill the bull. The meat is always sent to the prisons which if there is another— (interruption). So anyhow the custom—oh—the meat goes to the jails—which is another thing another disgrace in Mexico—the jails are bad—but in each nation something has to be bad, that is one of the things that are bad in Mexico which has been in the papers lately, you know, how bad they are but I tell you they don't have the vandalism, murders that they have here—because when they say that they—shoot them if they find them in an act of vandalism or act—like abducting somebody—or stealing or killing somebody—they kill them on the spot, they don't have a trial for them—in this way America is very lenient. I'm very sorry, it is a very bad mistake—so, we have very bad conditions in the jails but believe me they think twice before they go to jail. Before, they, you know, commit something like when they started here to rebel, all those student started to rebel in Mexico City—also they wanted to do the same thing they did here. The President said, “OK, if you do that we'll start with cannons we will not fool around—we'll start fighting right away and they did—and they killed a few of the protestors and there never was another demonstration. It isn't that Mexico has a dictatorship—yes, they had quite a few presidents, bad presidents—that is the one of the reasons why we came here—the government was corrupt—my father got into politics—that's another story but they have had a very bad governmentship—how do you say—government and we have had ups and downs, past history revolutions and all that—what is better? To be strict with the people and show we have authority or let people get away with things? Nettie: That's right. Elodia: I may be wrong but now the politicians here are not any more corrupt than in other countries—in fact, I think that they are not as corrupted as in other countries. They are doing the best they can—I find that people demand too much from the politicians—they're human beings like we are—sure, they get big salaries but on the other hand look at the risk they—taking—they are our leaders, they should be able to make more money—as they are the leaders—they take a lot responsibility—oh well, so they find this politician that politician took a little money from this or that—well, maybe they don't get enough money to represent the people like the people want to represent them—like, for instance, it takes money to be dressed the way supposed to be dressed, to live in luxurious homes—they have to live in luxurious home—they are the representatives of United States. I do think they should be—the people that have beautiful homes so that other countries will say—well look—all right, I think they should be treated equally in some instances but they also are to be treated with respect because we are the people who elected them so, they should have a certain kind of aura towards them, you know, something like, not that they are better than we are but they do have a better position because that's the way we want them to be—they have to be. Is there anything else? Nettie: Well, Elodia, I'm always interested in foods and recipes of Mexico. Elodia: In the first place, the Indians taught us to use the maize—the corn that is the staple in Mexico—they would, the kernel of the corn, they would grind, now, years ago, they used to grind by hand in a stone made for that purpose with, sort like a rolling pin but made of stone. Now, of course they have machines that grind the corn and make into dough—that dough is made into a tortilla, like a pancake, and is cooked like a pancake and from the tortilla we make, we stuff them we call it a taco because, “let's call it a bite to eat"—the tortilla can be cut into 5 or 6 or 8 pieces—could be used as like a piece of bread to eat with a meal. Now the tortilla is very essential in Mexico. The scientists have found out that Mexicans have very good teeth because the corn when is eaten does not leave a residue that is left by bread—so, that is why they think the Mexicans have good teeth. Now, beside the tortilla, like I said, we have chili which is very hot, we use them in sauces. We don't—the restaurants cook very spicy with very hot peppers but the people don't have that hot stuff—they make a sauce, of course, it is up to each individual to use it—now we have the tacos—tacos are fried, beans are fried, the meat is made into a like a stew—you put in tortilla and you then roll it—you call it a taco—also, we use that for an enchilada. The enchiladas have another procedure—we put them through with a sauce made of chili powder which is not hot—chili is made with dry peppers for that purpose and then sometime we use it as they are but it's ground to the powder—the tortillas pass through the sauce and then you put the fried onions with cheese, roll them and bake in the oven 10 minutes—you call them enchiladas. The tamales are a very long—intricate procedure—it takes a long time, it’s not complicated but takes a long time. The tamale is made into ah—right—the meat is cooked with garlic and spices and ground and then the dough is made with meat juice—broth—soup. You make it into a stiff dough and then you make it into a corn husk and then put your meat in the middle, roll it, and then you cook it—probably for one half hour because the meat has been cooked already. The masa, which is the dough, is cooked in about 20 minutes—which is called the tamale because it is cooked in the cornhusk—and it is a tradition which comes from years and years. We eat very little pastry. They do now, in Mexico City, you find the most famous bakeries in the world—they use a lot of pastries, but only at night. The Mexicans have a very good breakfast which consists of sausage, eggs, sometimes pork chops and even steak. Then the meal, main meal, between 2 and 3, they have a big meal first comes the soup, then comes rice—we fry our rice—then comes the meat, it’s either made into roasted charcoal or in the oven. After the meat comes the vegetable or the salad and we very seldom have pies or cakes—we have fruit piece for dessert, it’s plentiful there. This is 2 o'clock or 3 o'clock now at night when people come to visit you it is usually between 4 and 6 and the custom is to serve chocolate and little bit hojarasca—which is a cookie made very rich—that's what we offer them, you know, between 4-6—now the supper which we call dinner here is very light usually is a sweet roll and hot chocolate or milk or coffee—it is always 8-9 o'clock—a very light meal, of course, they have their meal at noon. That's it. The spices we use are entirely different than the Italian or Americans use. We use cilantro—which is cardamom seeds—no—I can't think of the name in English—we have cumin seeds—we use in rice or meats—we use a lot of almonds to cook with our meats which is cooked into a paste, thickened like meatballs or like in stew. The chili con carne which is so popular is not done as it is done here—probably it is Americanized. The way I was brought up I was cutting tiny little pieces of pork or beef, we fry that then of course, we cook the pinto beans which is cooked ahead of time and then when the meat is done we put the pinto beans along with chili powder, garlic & onions and then we simmer for a long time and that is our chili con carne, which is a little different than they make here. It's good here too, but I mean, but it has been changed some, but that was the original chili con carne. We use pork in our tamales—when we make our tamales—or we make like you would call a stew with green peppers and sauce of green peppers entirely—for pies and cakes there are few recipes, we use flan, quite a bit, which is like a custard only is a little bit sweeter, it’s almost like a custard, we have it at night, sometimes, when we do that. We also make, here we go again, buñuelos—it's a very thin like a pancake—put one over our knees—put on knees—proceed to pull—until it becomes very, very thin—and we fry that out—sprinkle with sugar and cinnamon. This is the custom that we usually make them at Christmas because the weather is hot—now Christmas it is cooler so we make them that time of year so we call them buñuelos. What else could I tell you about Christmas? We take a roast beef—you know—you say, “what am I going to do with a roast beef?”—so you make it into a loaf, hash, or meat patties. Our meat patties or croquettes as you call it, we use them different, we take the leftover meat, grind it—then put into—eggs with peaks—beaten egg whites with a tiny bit of flour—then we fry and using leftovers we make a sauce with tomato, garlic and onion—put sauce on top of croquettes—(meat patties leftovers with)—we always have—most of our meals are with rice, meat and beans—even on the hottest day we have soup. The soup consists of a bone with meat, throw in whole carrots, a half cabbage, cut into quarters, pear, apple, tomato and onion. We don't use garlic on soup—soup of the day—sometime—we have corn soup and cream soups—but this is our popular one. Nettie: Elodia, this sounds interesting—sounds like a cookbook. Is there anything else you want to add to this? Elodia: No, unless you want to go into custom dress— Nettie: That would be interesting to know. Elodia: I'm, all right, making too many ahs—I've got to make my thoughts together. We, every state in Mexico has different custom—costume. The custom of the whole country, whole republic, is embroidered blouse which is white, very pretty embroidery—skirt is made of green—because the flag is green, white and red and we have an eagle in the middle of our flag—usually custom of the whole country—colors are exactly like the flag on we painted by hand or embroidered by beads and very colorful—as I say, each state has their own costume—towards the Yucatán Peninsula—they have entirely different like a muumuu—not too white—like a muumuu embroidered on top, then they have a skirt embroidered with white and then they have another with lace and that is the custom of Indians—they usually, even now, they dress all the time. Now—toward the Tampico—Veracruz—which is another port is near the Gulf—they have all white made of very tiny plants—and is in layers—one after another. We have folklorico—a group of dancers—dance of every state—it's different—when it comes to New York, if anyone hears about it should see it—it's beautiful, colorful being handed down from generation to generation—it's authentic—from the primitive stage to now. The poor people of Indian people still have a custom to put their shawl around their shoulder and then cross it and they carry babies on their back. Now I can see the Americans with their carriages on their back—carriers, almost like that—child sleeps and is  comfortable because next to mommy or when carried in her stomach when they're tiny—that's only the poor people. Naturally, rich people have maids to carry babies like that in a carriage. Now we are clothes conscious—now we might not have a beautiful furniture or the house elegantly furnished—but we are careful how we dress, for instance, like in the afternoon when we go to the plaza which is a circle, its middle made of concrete. The middle of plaza there is a band concert—always a band—since we have hot days, at night we go and listen—government pays for that. Gee, I have been getting away from everything, Nettie—I have told you so much and yet I didn't accomplish as much as I wanted to—my mind goes from one thing to another thing. Nettie: You told me quite a few things. I understand you belong to a charity—sounds quite interesting. Elodia: Patroness Ladies of Charity that is a group of ladies of charity that—uh—is an association of charity of ladies of the United States. It was formed in 1960 and became one of the 43 countries in the world to have its own association. We—the Patronesses are devoted to do good for the community—right here in Binghamton. We have a store on the corner of Jeanette and Clinton St. Anybody in need of clothing can come with a letter or note from either their priest, minister or social worker. Even though we are Catholics we serve everyone that comes or anyone that come and says, "Look, I am in need of clothing," or, "I'm in need of groceries—because either my husband is sick or is not working,” and we try to help all we can. We have—we also sell clothes and other articles—with the money that we acquire from sale we put back in to buy shoes for the needy children as they start school. Sometimes, we help people in need that have no money—we help them for one week or so until they can go to their own church or social services or go to Catholic Charities to be helped. We have done this quite often—we have a Sister Genevieve who works with us—she is tremendous help—she goes to houses when she finds out they are in need of something—sometimes we pay the electric bill so the electricity is not turned off—or the gas bill or other necessities or we buy their drugs because, maybe they haven't gone through Medicare and like that for them.  Nettie: I say you have an interesting project that you are in. What was the name of the store? Elodia: Patroness Lady of Charity, Nearly New Shop, Clinton Street, 797-2033. If you have no way to come down, sometimes we can delegate someone to come after you and you can pick out clothes you need. They, also, take you home—it has to be—people who can't get there—we try not to emphasize this because so many people have a cousin, nephew or a niece who can bring them down. Now we have certain hours—we close Saturday in the summer. Other days, Tuesday and Thursday 10-3 o'clock. Now if by some reason or other you have to have clothing, as I say, you can call the shop and we'll send someone after you and we'll get you there, somehow. Nettie: That's wonderful work you're doing for the people. Well, Elodia, I must say that was a wonderful interview. Thank you very much. Elodia: You're very welcome. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elodia de Hoyos Planck Subject The topic of the resource Planck, Elodia de Hoyos -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees - -Interviews; Cigar industry; Nearly New Shop; China Painting; Patronesses Ladies of Charity; Mexican culture Description An account of the resource Elodia de Hoyos Planck talks about her birth in Mexico, arriving in the U.S. with her family and eventually arriving in Binghamton, NY. She discusses working in the cigar factory as a spotter, in the Endicott-Johnson Corporation as a stitcher, getting married and having three sons who became engineers. She speaks about her hobby of china painting, her volunteer work in the community, membership in the Patronesses Ladies of Charity and as an volunteer in this organization's store, the Nearly New Shop. She also explains customs, dress and food of the Mexican culture. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 50A ; Recording 50B ; Recording 50C ; Recording 50D Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Planck, Elodia de Hoyos ; Politylo, Nettie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-08-14 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 34:06 Minutes ; 4:11 Minutes ; 14:48 Minutes ; 36:19 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8aa1b23d7d3bdd596d3f5c460a77d70a.mp3 2a0260da93d78c3b9951300fc4d08294 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Parsons, Elsie Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Date of Interview 1978-08-21 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:51 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55992">Interview with Elsie Parsons</a> Subject LCSH Parsons, Elsie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; LeRayville (Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Teachers -- Interviews; Funeral homes; Women -- Societies and clubs; Titus-Parsons Funeral Home Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Elsie (Atwood) Parsons Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of interview: 21 August 1978 Susan: Mrs. Parsons, could we begin this interview by having you tell us where you were born and something about your early childhood, your parents and what they did? Elsie: I was born in Le Raysville, Pennsylvania, and came to Binghamton at the age of three and at that time of course a IBM was International Time Recording where my father worked and my mother was a wife and homemaker. I had one sister. I went to the public schools of Binghamton. I graduated from Binghamton Central High School and a my last year in high school I worked at Cornell Dibbles Funeral Home just answering telephone and helping as sort of a receptionist then I went to a Potsdam State Normal School. When I came back I was hired by Dr. Daniel J. Kelly whom we all loved in the 5 & 10 to be exact well I suppose that everything had been taken care of at the board meeting naturally but that was the first announcement before the letter came to tell me that I had been hired as a kindergarten teacher in the public schools. I taught in Benjamin Franklin School and in later years I came over to teach in Horace Mann because the principal of Horace Mann School was the one I went to when I entered kindergarten and he asked Dr. Kelly if I might come and teach for him so my friends all said, “Oh no, they won't transfer you.” But somehow I found out they did so, I came over ‘cause a people thought I wouldn't want to leave a new building to come to an old building because that was before the new one was put up, Horace Mann, but a I enjoyed my life very much. I taught until—I taught half days after my first child came and then I taught a I had stopped teaching entirely when the boy came so that a I could stay home all the time and just be a housewife and help with the business here. Susan: Do you recall how much you made when you first started teaching? Elsie: I think it was $1,100 and I thought that was an awful lot of money and my parents did, really, today it doesn't sound like very much but a I think that's about what I got, that or $1200, somewhere around that neighborhood when I first started in but after three years of course I didn't marry until after the three years were up although I did meet Mr. Parsons before that time but I wanted to be sure that I had my permanent certificate for teaching so if I wanted to go back and teach and I did teach until the children came so I had quite a long career as a public school teacher in Binghamton but a my husband went in business in 1928.  Susan: ‘28. What did he do before he got into this business? Elsie: A he worked for E-J before that.  Susan: Oh did he? Elsie: Uh huh. Susan: That's interesting. Elsie: And in 1928 he went in business with a Mr. Titus and we had the Titus Parsons Funeral Home on the southside and then we bought—we moved over here to the westside of Main St. so that we were across the street at 86 Main for four or five years. Then we bought this house.  Susan: It's a beautiful home. Elsie: Yes, J. Stewart Well owned it but he wouldn't sell. We wanted to buy it sooner but he lived here all alone with just one servant which wasn't enough to properly take care of a home and he just wasn't interested in selling. We had sent people to inquire of him but he said, “What would he do with the money if he did sell?” So, we couldn't buy the house next door which was the carriage house, the white house with the red blinds at that particular time, but my husband bought it later for a friend of ours who is single and wanted a place in this area so she could be close to us. Her father was a minister and she doesn't have any close relatives so we bought the house as soon as it was make use of to a nephew. Susan: Can you recall some—some little things that you did when you were growing up that you did that was many years ago? Elsie: Yes, I agree with you. I a, well skating was what I enjoyed the most, I think. Of course I did all the other things too. But I think skating and playing tennis were my favorites when we were in high school and ice skating course I did rollerskate. Susan: What were some of the biggest changes that you saw in the community as you were growing up? Elsie: Well you mean in the buildings or the business or what? I know when we moved to this funeral home and went in business here I think a great many people besides myself we did it in all due respect we used to call Monsignor "Father" McLean and I can see even today the gorgeous arrangement of flowers that he sent when we had our opening and he was always very nice to us. And we had a girl in every room when we had the opening to tell people about the room. We'd give them a little history of the house because of course it is a—a very beautiful building and that added, I think, a great deal to our opening and the girls who did it enjoyed it and a they were always very very nice to us. We enjoyed a lovely friendship between the sons and Father McLean of course that dates back a good many years which you can't remember I'm sure but a and— I don't know, I think that I enjoyed even grade school as well as high school a lot more than people do today. It seems to me we had good times and we had more parties and things like that when we got together in groups and sororities and things like that—that we enjoyed it. Some of the youngsters today don't get quite the pleasure out of it that we did, at least it doesn't seem that way to me. They want a little extra to have what they call a good time from what people did when I was young. Susan: How many children did you have? Elsie: Two. Susan: Two. Do you want to tell us about your daughter? Elsie: Oh my daughter lives in California and her husband works for Farm Food Machines Co. He is a comptroller and she is a wife and homemaker and they have three lovely children. My son is single. He's a bachelor by choice and so I don't think he is going to give me any grandchildren, I don't know. He's in Denver, Colorado. Susan: Where did your daughter study her painting? Elsie: She studied in he local schools and then she went to college and took it up in a—oh I'm sorry—but she does do nice work, I think, I enjoy it very much. Susan: Do want to go into your activities with the local clubs here in town? Elsie: Well, I'm the past President of the Civic Club of Binghamton, an organization that of course was for many years ago and is for the interest of the community and of course I am also a past officer of Monday Club but of course Monday Club has a different object. It's more of a lecture club and I also belong to Zonta Club International and I'm active still in that and that is for businesswomen, of course, Zonta Club International, and I enjoy that very much. I belong to West Presbyterian Church and I'm active there still. Susan: You’re active in the business, which we know with all these phones ringing. Elsie: Yes, Yes I still am active in the business—stay active in that and I really enjoy it. If there is something you can do for people when they are going through three of the most difficult days of their—maybe first time they've met with death and it's very difficult to accept and if you can do something to help guide them and help them out a little bit over those three days, I think it's well worth while. Susan: There has been a lot of talk about how old fashioned we are in the way we take care of our loved ones. Do you see any a improvement of that in the foreseeable future? Elsie: Now I don't quite understand the work improvement—a you know at the time of death a one in the past has always wanted to have a funeral service and have the friends come and some people like to have their friends view the body—others like to have a closed casket, others like to have the casket open for the calling hours and closed for the funeral service which of course I think is the natural way to do things but a there is a change the younger people of today. Susan: They have—they have been cutting the hours. Elsie: That's right.  Susan: Which makes it easier on the family. Elsie: Yes, it does make it easier on the family and I notice a considerable difference because we used to have at least three sessions of calling hours and now we have not more than two and a I think that if you have a notice in the Binghamton Press and the Binghamton Sun your friends always make it a point to find time to come at the time you stated in the paper. If they really are a good friend and they want to come they make it their business to get here whenever the family sets the time so that it is easier on a family to have only two hour sessions of calling hours rather than three or four but some people particularly, Armenians and Polish people still insist on about three or four.  Susan: The old fashioned way. Elsie: Uh huh. But now some people have only one. A few people and a if there is sufficient notice in the Binghamton Press and the Sun I think that covers it very nicely for a family. Susan: Let's get on to something else. Is there anything more that you would like to a— Elsie: I haven't given it much thought a—I've told you where I've taught, of course I taught Sunday School too. Susan: Are you concerned? Are you concerned for your grandchildren that there are so many articles written about “why Johnny can't read” and “what's wrong with our school system today?” Elsie: I'm very concerned about that, yes, and I think it's going to be corrected. I think people are becoming aware of it but it has taken a long time for the general public to wake up that children have been pushed on from the second to the third, fourth, fifth and sixth grade and through high school without really properly covering the work that should be theirs to do during that period of time. I'm very concerned about it, yes. Susan: And it is sad when we have so much to work with these days than we had when you were teaching school. Elsie: Very true. Very true and there is more to cover too than there was when I was teaching a—a great deal more to cover and children should become aware of it in the early years of schooling. I formed the habit of doing things and doing them and earning their promotions—not having them just passed on which is really what has been happening and the general—I think we’re really just waking up to the fact, I think other than teachers it hasn't been very well recognized. Susan: And really the teachers haven't had too much to say about what— Elsie: That's very true, they haven't a they have been sort of promoting this let them go in the next grade. Susan: So that people in years to come will know that a lot of us haven't been satisfied with the way things have been going bu we have to go along with— Elsie: And on the college level it's too bad they are no longer held to cutting classes. It's just that they cut them there is nothing really serious happens about it. They just go when they feel like it, do as much work as they care to and sometimes even when they have four years of college they just go on for a year or two if dad and mother want to support them which is tragic really. It’s a, children should grow up to know that they're going to be responsible for themselves at a certain age. Take care of themselves that way.  Susan: Well, thank you Mrs. Parsons, it's been very nice talking with you. Elsie: Well I've enjoyed talking with you. It's been a pleasure I assure you. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elsie Parsons Subject The topic of the resource Parsons, Elsie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; LeRayville (Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Teachers -- Interviews; Funeral homes; Women -- Societies and clubs; Titus-Parsons Funeral Home Description An account of the resource Elsie Parsons talks about her birth in LeRayville, PA and her move to Binghamton, NY at the age of 3. She received her education at <a href="http://www.potsdam.edu/">Potsdam Normal School</a>, and was a schoolteacher for a short time. She speaks about her husband's funeral business, Titus Parsons Funeral Home. She also mentions her memberships in several civic clubs. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 47 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Parsons, Elsie ; Dobandi, Susan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-08-21 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 33:51 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0b810f92fccf6fe3c29a9104d8c32d27.jpeg 86dde76e726d5de064eaca09ef5ea7f2 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f4101e67cf29a2c46204a4eff75b3926.mp3 6793702ce6c47f383283275059e425e4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2012-01-05 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emory Douglas Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Emory Douglas worked as a Minister of Culture for the Black Panther Party. He was also the art director, designer, and main illustrator for The Black Panther magazine. His illustrations for the Party's newspaper reflect American history and society in the 1960s and 1970s."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Emory Douglas worked as a Minister of Culture for the Black Panther Party. He was also the art director, designer, and main illustrator for The Black Panther magazine. His illustrations for the Party's newspaper reflect American history and society in the 1960s and 1970s. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Black Rights Movement; Nineteen Sixties; Black Panther Party; Stokely Carmichael; Weathermen; SNCC; Police brutality; Decade stereotypes."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Black Rights Movement; Nineteen Sixties; Black Panther Party; Stokely Carmichael; Weathermen; SNCC; Police brutality; Decade stereotypes. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 134:55 Subject LCSH Black Panther Party; Douglas, Emory--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emory Douglas Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Douglas, Emory ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Black Panther Party; Douglas, Emory--Interviews Description An account of the resource Emory Douglas worked as a Minister of Culture for the Black Panther Party. He was also the art director, designer, and main illustrator for The Black Panther magazine. His illustrations for the Party's newspaper reflect American history and society in the 1960s and 1970s. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-01-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.185a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.185b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 134:55 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce2e627f2a8747c7261af291eea4cf86.mp3 cb2f41afd3d39e075bd7a07f07ebedeb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/561c2d66ff533bb20b5a79f09156802b.jpg 9d6a1bea7886138291f5211f75838f61 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eric Lobenfeld Year of Graduation 1971 Biographical Text A ’71 graduate who majored in philosophy, Eric is a partner in Hogan Lovells US LLP in New York City. He specializes in intellectual property litigation. He served on the Board of the Harpur Law Council. At Harpur College he worked at WHRW as a disc jockey. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eric Lobenfeld Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lobenfeld, Eric ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A ’71 graduate who majored in philosophy, Eric is a partner in Hogan Lovells US LLP in New York City. He specializes in intellectual property litigation. He served on the Board of the Harpur Law Council. At Harpur College he worked at WHRW as a disc jockey. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Eric Lobenfeld.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:58 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/251aa38a28237e1d23286755e1aef0e7.jpg 37444710e61ddb5fc3a64ff96bfda99f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e9c6c0e325fc164151439e56a37dfd7d.mp3 36e5623ab25c98ea26b8aee370c2f6cf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-03-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon) Green, 1941- Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ernest Green is a consultant, investment executive, and Civil Rights Leader. Green was one of the first black students to integrate at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, following the Supreme Court 1954 ruling to desegregate. Green graduated with a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in Sociology from Michigan State University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Ernest Green is a consultant, investment executive, and Civil Rights Leader. Green was one of the first black students to integrate at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, following the Supreme Court 1954 ruling to desegregate. Green graduated with a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in Sociology from Michigan State University. Keywords NAACP; Little Rock Nine; Vietnam War; Jimmy Carter; Civil Rights Movement; Baby boom generation. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 109:21 Subject LCSH Civil rights workers; Consultants; Investment advisors; Central High School (Little Rock, Ark.)--History; School integration--Arkansas--Little Rock--History--20th century; Green, Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon), 1941--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ernest Green Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 3 March 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two- EG (00:00:18): A downtown department store. And it was one of those hot days in Little Rock in the summer. And I went to the water fountain. I went to the water fountain for whites rather than the one for blacks. And I think the one for blacks was in the basement of the building and all of that. And I always thought of the person who admonished me for drinking out of the white water fountain seemed like a giant ogre who came out of the sky, removed me from the water fountain. It was the drinking of the water fountain that my first indication that there was something different between black and white folks. And about... Hang on a minute please. SM (00:01:25): Mm-hmm. EG (00:01:25): So that really was my first indication of being black in the South and during the 1940s and early 1950s. SM (00:01:34): How old were you when that experience happened? EG (00:01:43): I think I was six or seven years old. SM (00:01:43): Wow. When you had that experience, did you go home with your mom and did you have to talk? Did you have a discussion with her about what was going on because you were so young? EG (00:01:53): Well, I think at the time there was probably some attempt to rationalize it, but it did not make sense then or now. And that is one of those things that sticks with you, that there is a feeling of being unfair and that somehow, we had to change it. That is probably what I thought at that point in time, that this was something that did not make sense and a series of adult decisions that I would change if I were in charge. SM (00:02:38): Who were your greatest influences through your high school? This is before you went to Little Rock now for your senior year. Who were your greatest influences through your schooling up to that point? And secondly, give me some background information on your family, your grandparents, parents, brothers and sisters during that time frame. EG (00:02:59): Well, the greatest influences would be my mother, my aunt, my grandfather. My dad passed when I was 13. And my mother and aunt were school teachers. My aunt was the dean of girls at the local high school. My mother taught home economics at the high school. And then she stopped teaching when my brother and I were born, and she went back to teaching after about, I think three years after my brother was three years old as an elementary school teacher in the Little Rock school system. But she and my aunt taught school for over 40 years in the Little Rock system. SM (00:04:02): Did they teach in segregated schools or inte- EG (00:04:04): They taught in segregated schools. And they really were. But my grandfather was a retired letter carrier. They all were my biggest influences in high school, Horace Mann, which was the segregated high school. And there were teachers along the way since black school teachers were a fairly small lot, they all knew each other. And my mother and aunt it turned out were part of a group of teachers that supported a court case. There was a black teacher who challenged the school board on equal pay between white and black teachers. And that was in the 1940s when I was very young. But during that challenge, my mother and a group of the other teachers helped support the teacher who was bringing the court suit because she was fired immediately when she put the court suit forward. Obviously, once she was fired from teaching, she had no way of supporting herself while the case was going through litigation. So they were part of a group of teachers that helped provide for her pay and compensation. And since they did not make much money, I am certain that this was a real struggle to try to make certain that she had coverage. But the other part of that was that the lawyer that handled the case for the NAACP was Thurgood Marshall. And he stayed at our house for a number of times. This was before obviously hotels were open. And I was always amazed that my mother as a school teacher was able or willing to step forward and played this kind of role. Because you would not consider her a revolutionist. But she was one quietly in her own way and was an advocate for change. SM (00:07:06): When Thurgood was down there in the South, was Jack Greenberg with him? Because he traveled with them a lot? EG (00:07:12): I do not think, as far as I know, I do not think Greenberg was traveling with him. SM (00:07:19): Right. EG (00:07:20): But the more I read, the school equity cases were really forerunners for many of the school desegregation. SM (00:07:33): Yes. Wow. What an experience having Thurgood there at your home. In my readings, education was a very important in your family, it is very obvious from the experiences of your being teachers and so forth and the emphasis on education. And obviously they had a strong sense for what was right and wrong in our society, particularly in the South, which all played an important role in your courageous effort to attend Little Rock High School. Was that all a part of it? The reason why you- EG (00:08:10): Well, I mean, it was always my choice. I came home in the spring of (19)57 when the school board announced they were going to accept transfer students from Horace Mann to Central. And I wanted to apply and be considered to transfer. And I did not pay a lot of attention to the selection process of how the school board went through it. I mean, it is still to this day it is somewhat of a mystery to me. Obviously, they paid attention to their grades and I am sure some background and all of that and participation in events in school. But after they did all that, they would not allow us, the black students, to participate in any of the extracurricular activity. I am not sure why they chose people who were involved in the school and then turn around and block all of that. SM (00:09:32): So when you got to Little Rock, you just went to classes basically? EG (00:09:36): Well, as it turned out, that is all you could do. SM (00:09:38): You could not play sports, join the band, the chorus or any of those? EG (00:09:42): The band, the choir, sports you could not do anything. You had to just attend the classes. And I suppose this was their punishment for if you were going to be there, they were going to make it not the world's most pleasant situation. But the other thing, or one other fact about my mother. My mother received her masters from the University of Arkansas. They had a program that they ran on the weekends, a satellite affair in Little Rock. I think this was a response to a requirement to open up the university. And probably the expense side of having people to go all the way up to Fayetteville from Little Rock, which was quite a jaunt. And if they were working as teachers, that would have been quite difficult. But anyway, she received her master's from the University of Arkansas. And I do not know whether indirectly or directly they advised her or not to come up to the campus for the ceremony that they were not inviting she and the other black teachers that participated in this. Anyway- SM (00:11:13): What year was this? EG (00:11:14): This would be 1951. SM (00:11:16): Oh my gosh. EG (00:11:17): And it turned out that when they had sent her-her diploma, she was very upset about it and threw the letter in the trash that indicated that they would prefer her not coming to the campus. Did not invite her. Anyway, long story short, my sister has been following this for the last 60 years. And she wrote the Chancellor at the university this year. And the university is going to do a special commendation of my mother's diploma at graduation this spring. SM (00:12:05): Wow. That is, wow. EG (00:12:06): And we are all going up to participate in it and receive her diploma 60 years later as the member of the class of 1951. SM (00:12:22): Yeah. Just from hearing your voice, you must be so proud of your mom. EG (00:12:26): Oh yeah. SM (00:12:28): Oh my gosh. And you got to be proud of your sister for the persistence in doing this. EG (00:12:34): I am very-very proud of my sister and my mother. This was quite an achievement and the fact that she stayed with it for all this time. And then secondly, recognition. And I am sure this will be while they will be recognizing my mother, it will be recognizing a whole series of other teachers and graduate students who did not get there too. SM (00:13:02): You know what, Ernie, this will be an interesting parallel here. It would be nice if President Obama would come, just come unannounced just like Dr. King came unannounced to your graduation and just with no fanfare, just sat with a family. Would not that be nice? EG (00:13:20): Well, we- SM (00:13:23): I know it was a little more with the President, but still, I mean. EG (00:13:24): That would be a great touch. But he travels with a few people. SM (00:13:38): I know. That would shock them. I am going to get the into that, but could you explain a little bit more about the schooling prior to Little Rock? Because I know you were in what, Horace Mann school and then you were in another school for a while. EG (00:13:50): Well, there were two schools. Paul Lawrence Dunbar High School was the black High School in Little Rock for a very long time. And then right after the (19)54 decision, the Little Rock School Board built a new high school, Horace Mann. I say tongue in cheek, but it is probably true that there were more new schools built for black people in the South after the Brown decision than at any point in time in the history of this country. And all of it was done to try to thwart, I am sure black interest in going to the formally all white schools. But Horace Mann and Dunbar were regarded as premier high schools. And in many ways, I always said it was the quality of the teachers that these two institutions had. And coming out of a family of teachers, you had an opportunity to recognize exceptional teachers. In fact, now there is this one course that I took my 11th year at Horace Mann. It was Negro History at that time. And it was Carter G. Wilson's book that we studied. And the teacher who taught the course, I always said that Little Rock School Board had no idea what this woman was teaching us. But we studied slave insurrections and the protest movement, the beginning of the NAACP and all of a series of things that taught me that the black community was challenging this old system a long time. It was not something that was being accepted. And it may have helped reinforce in my mind that challenging the court decision was an important piece. SM (00:16:28): Yeah. Learning about probably Walter White- EG (00:16:31): And Roy Wilson. SM (00:16:33): ...learning about W.B. Royce and- EG (00:16:33): Right. SM (00:16:35): ...and Marcus Garvey and a lot of different people. EG (00:16:38): Yeah. We had quite an array of individuals that we spent time having to know about. SM (00:16:52): Three events that made national news before you went to Little Rock in (19)57 really were major events in the nation at this particular time. I have interviewed some people up from the media and the media portrays things when they were popular. When they are not, they kind of hide them. But certainly the Brown versus Board of Education decision of (19)54, the Montgomery Bus Boycott of (19)57, and then of course the Emmett Till murder, I believe that was (19)56. Those three events were major. Did they have an influence on you? EG (00:17:27): Absolutely [inaudible]. SM (00:17:30): All three of them in terms of wanting to go to Little Rock? EG (00:17:34): Well, the Brown decision, I was 12, 13 when that was handed down and as I am junior high school. I paid attention to it because the local newspaper had huge, bold headlines that I had never seen any that big. And they said that this was going to change the Old South. And I thought, well, the Old South was not for me. And I was ready for a change. And if this was one of the things that was going to change it, I am in favor of the decision. And then the Till murder, I was impacted by the picture that appeared in Jet Magazine of the disfigured body. And then just the recounting of how he had been treated and mangled and thrown in the river with the weights and all of that. And then the Montgomery Bus Boycott, I was a bit older and I was just really impressed by the fact that these individuals in Montgomery could take on the whole structure with an alternative transportation system. I knew who Rosa Parks was and I was beginning to pay attention to Dr. King. But the main thing about the Montgomery Bus Boycott that struck me was that ordinary citizens in Montgomery had decided to band together to create this alternative transportation as long as it was segregated. And I just connected with that because the rule in Little Rock was that if the bus became crowded and black people had to get up and move further to the back to give up their seat to someone white. And I just, that did not make sense then. It does not make sense now for me. And I thought that the Montgomery response was what we needed to have happen throughout the entire South. SM (00:20:06): What is interesting is when you look at the history of the church in Montgomery, where Dr. King took over after Pastor Johns left. When Pastor Johns was kind of pressured to leave because they thought he was kind of a rabble rouser. And then Dr. King comes in and within a short period of time, he is thrust into activism as well. You probably remember the scene in the movie where Dr. King finally, there is a movie made of this where Dr. King finally makes some comments in the church and the eyes were rolling around, "Oh, no. Not again." EG (00:20:40): No. Well, maybe part of that was knowing the level of conservatism by some people in Little Rock if that were to happen. That they would be quite upset or felt that you were rocking the boat and that this was a challenge that they did not need. SM (00:21:09): I know the NAACP was responsible for picking the nine students for Little Rock. And I know you are still, you mentioned earlier that there is still a question of understanding how this came about. But from my readings, is that your grades were excellent and that was definitely a criteria. And also the fact that school attendance was very important. Those were two criteria that were used in picking the nine students. The question I am asking is how did the NAACP approach your parents on this? EG (00:21:43): Well, I think it is a slight misnomer. There were more than nine that had been approved by the school board. And many of the others decided not to go forward. The number's somewhere around 20, 25 students that were picked. And that the thing that binds the nine of us together is that we all had somebody in our families who supported our desire to go to Central High School. I think most of us saw it as an opportunity to get the best high school education that the city had to offer. That there were more courses, more range of science labs and other things that we did not have at Horace Mann and Dunbar. And for that reason, in the initial students that they had, what the first court suit suing the Little Rock School Board, none of them got picked to participate. We were, I do not know the word self-appointed, but all of us decided individually that we wanted to transfer, wanted to transfer for as I said, a better educational format. And the other portion of that that I think made us all somewhat different was that we each had parent of parents or some adult who thought that the decision we were making was the right decision. SM (00:23:44): Yeah. The person you worked with there I believe was Daisy Bates. EG (00:23:47): Was Daisy Bates, absolutely. SM (00:23:48): Yeah. And I have read her biography quite a few years ago. I have a first edition of her biography, which is actually- EG (00:23:54): She was quite a lady. And she and her husband owned the black weekly newspaper, the Arkansas State Press. SM (00:24:03): What became of it? EG (00:24:04): Not only was she president of NAACP, but she was also publisher and editor of this weekly paper. And it was really the frontal engine that kept up with all of the changes going on in terms of race and race relations. SM (00:24:30): I know her life was threatened many times. Did you know any of the other eight before they came to Little Rock? Did you know them? EG (00:24:39): Yeah. Well we, let us see. Two of the eight, we went to the same church. Jefferson Thomas lived a half a block from me. I knew Terrence Robert's sister. Yeah, Little Rock was still small enough that, except for me, the students that were going into the 10th grade, I really did not know them because they were in high school. SM (00:25:12): Yes. EG (00:25:14): Two grades is a world of difference. But we either knew the family, knew a brother or sister, had some relationship so that most of the nine I knew of or knew somebody in that family. SM (00:25:32): Well, your career is well known to the nation, and I think Melba has written about her background too. But the other seven, what became of these other individuals? What became of Elizabeth Eckford? EG (00:25:44): Well, Elizabeth is living in Little Rock now. She is retired and we were all together just a few weeks ago in Little Rock. Jefferson Thomas, as you may not know, died this past fall. He had been quite ill. Terrence Roberts is a psychology professor. He has written a book. He is retired and doing lecturing. Carlota Walls Lanier has also written a book and she is doing lecturing and she who is in real estate out in Colorado. Minijean Brown-Trickey, is living back in Little Rock, also educator and doing some lecturing. Thelma Mothershed-Wair is in Little Rock and retired teacher. I think I have covered. Gloria Karlmark, Gloria Ray Karlmark is living in Sweden. SM (00:27:06): Wow. EG (00:27:06): And she has been living over there for 40 years or better. She has family there and she gets back occasionally. She was with us a couple weekends ago down in Little Rock for a special recognition on the part of the Benton Library. SM (00:27:30): And how about Melba? EG (00:27:32): Melba is a college professor in the bay area in California somewhere near San Francisco. And as you said, has written a book and is doing well. SM (00:27:51): During all these years, you have stayed in touch with each other over times? Even when you went off to Michigan State as an undergraduate student, did you often hear from these- SM (00:28:03): ...State as an undergraduate student, did you often hear from these younger ones what they were still going through in Arkansas? EG (00:28:08): We stayed in touch. We have been more in touch in the last 20 years than we were in the beginning because we were all developing our careers, going to college, building families, all of that. But in the last 20 to 30 years, we have had these 10th year anniversaries. We have had creation of this foundation that we have, and we have made an attempt, and with the internet, it is easier to stay in touch as some years ago so we have fairly well-connected. SM (00:28:56): Oh, yes. All of you knew the dangers and the potential threats, the possible harm. What were you and your family thinking leading up to the first day of school? EG (00:29:07): Well, leading up to the first day of school, I thought that it would be relatively quiet. I mean, until the governor said he was calling out the National Guard, we thought that the desegregation would be reasonably accepted. The reason for that is that Little Rock saw itself as a moderate city. They were very early in the aftermath of the (19)54 decision. The buses had desegregated quietly. The library had accepted Blacks. The med school, the law school had all had a few Black students. So we anticipated that things were going to be fairly quiet. SM (00:30:02): What is interesting is when you look at the South at that time, the Democratic Party was in charge of the south. EG (00:30:09): I remember it was. SM (00:30:10): A lot of things that President Kennedy did early on, even when he was running for president and then when he became president, he was a very pragmatic politician. He did not want to lose the votes in the South, so a lot of the issues linked to President Kennedy and his real interest in helping in the civil rights area is in question because he was a pragmatic politician. The question is whether a lot of the things he did was for moral reasons or political reasons. Do you have any thoughts on that? EG (00:30:41): Well, I remember fairly vividly that when I was in college, we always had lots of discussions about where the Kennedys were in terms of civil rights. I think whether it was his heart or the pragmatism of day-to-day politics, I was more interested in the outcome. I believe he was a reluctant participant, but the same could be said about Eisenhower. SM (00:31:18): Yes. EG (00:31:19): He was also a reluctant participant, but unintended consequences that I think also gave a real shot of energy to the civil rights movement was his sending the troops to Little Rock. SM (00:31:32): Yes. September 24th. EG (00:31:34): And that made a real big difference. I think for the first time the African American community saw that the government was willing to stand up for what was right. To me, that was a big boost in many of these communities to push the agenda forward. SM (00:31:57): I think originally, we were supposed to start school around September 4th. EG (00:32:00): Yeah. SM (00:32:02): Yeah. And then I think you started it really on September 25th. What was going on in that two weeks? Were you still studying? EG (00:32:09): We were studying. We had tutors. We had support. We had interviews, had press and all of that. But the main thing I was interested in keeping up with my classwork because I was the graduating senior of the group, and I wanted to make sure I could graduate that year. SM (00:32:34): These next few questions are centered on your experience during that year. Could you describe that year using different anecdotes and stories about everyday life for you and your eight peers? EG (00:32:48): Well, you could divide it into two categories. When the troops were there, our life was fairly quiet and minimal problems. There may have been some words passed. But when the troops were pulled out of the school, that is when the level of harassment began to rise. We had physical altercations. Really, it was, I said, akin to go into the battle every day. SM (00:33:27): Wow. How long were the troops there to protect all nine of you? EG (00:33:34): Well, they were inside the classes until right around Thanksgiving they were removed from inside the classes. So we had pretty much until November that we were able to be on our own. SM (00:34:06): How did the principal and the teachers treat you, particularly the white teachers? EG (00:34:19): Well, most of the teachers were probably somewhere in a neutral zone trying not to be seen as partisan on either side. Then there were a few who were very supportive and wanted to make certain that we had a positive experience. Then there were a few who were openly hostile to our being there and were not shy about letting us know it. SM (00:34:54): Yeah. I read someplace that if any of the nine ever did something wrong, you were severely punished. And if whites did things that were pretty bad, nothing would happen to them, or at least they had to have a witness to their- EG (00:35:17): That was an imposition of a rule that the school authorities imposed on us. But I think one was the nine of us figured out how, as well as we could, to survive that year and be protective of each other. So we are a pretty tightly-knit group of people. More importantly, that you tried as best you could to ignore what you could and what you could not, you had to deal with it. So I mean, it was clear that there were more pleasant ways to go to school than what we went through. But for me, for myself, I felt that the satisfaction of leaving there was going to be too great for me to give in, and that if I wanted to punish my tormentors, my best deal was to stick it out and graduate from Central High School. SM (00:36:31): Right. Because sometimes it is a lesson of life, if you let people know that you are real upset, you are letting them win. EG (00:36:40): That we learned early. SM (00:36:44): Also, I am not sure if Daisy tried to do anything with respect to the fact when she found out that you were not allowed to be involved in any activities of any kind. I am a student development person, and I believe that all students should be able to have life not only in the class, but in outside activities. Was there ever any thoughts on the part of the NAACP locally via Daisy Bates to challenge you are not being- EG (00:37:11): Well, they challenged that in the beginning, but that was a rule that the school board handed down. I assumed at the time the attitude was, if you do not want this, then we are not going to accept you at as part of the transfer of students. SM (00:37:29): Did you make any friends with the white students, and was there pressure on white students that if they became friends with you, that sure they would be pressured? EG (00:37:38): Big pressure on them that if they befriended us, that they were going to be ostracized. SM (00:37:49): Geez. EG (00:37:49): Called nigger lovers. In some cases, their parents' businesses were threatened and all of that. So yeah, I mean, it was a reign of terror that got handed down by the segregationists to try to enforce an attitude of isolation towards us. SM (00:38:14): See, I think it is important, a lot of our today's students, both Black and white, do not know our history and assume that the battles that went took place in the (19)40s, (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, that is old history, it does not apply to today. Yet my commentary here is that teenagers have all kinds of pressures in their lives, most try to fit in. But even today, we know that bullying is one of the major issues that is affecting a lot of students in schools because for some reason, because children are children, look at people who are different and they treat them differently. Yet in Little Rock, you had the added dimension of extreme dislike based on race, and you still had all the other things that teenagers were going through. EG (00:39:01): Right. Well, I think you are absolutely right. Anyways, all these peer pressures and attempts to keep students from recognizing their full potential, it is an area that we have to continue to fight against. SM (00:39:27): I read also in this story when graduation was near, it is my understanding of the principal offered to send you your degree in the mail, too. EG (00:39:40): Yeah. Well, that was a non-starter. SM (00:39:42): Yeah. Explain that. How he approached you. EG (00:39:44): Well, his approach was that I would be happier without having to go through. SM (00:39:55): I am losing you. EG (00:39:56): Oh. That I would be happier without having to go through the ceremony and that they would mail me my diploma. I just said that was out of the question. I planned to be there for the ceremony and regarded that as an important part of receiving my diploma, so I quickly dismissed that. SM (00:40:24): What was it like being at the graduation? I saw a picture on the web of you standing outside, and how some of the other students are out there too, just before your graduation, and- EG (00:40:37): Well, for me, it was a great feeling of accomplishment that year that I had not only endured that, but been able to navigate it and that I was getting on with my life to the next step, going on to college. I felt that receiving that diploma I had accomplished something for myself and for other Black youngsters in Little Rock that would come behind me. SM (00:41:18): When you went up and the principal handed you your degree, obviously your parents and your supporters were very pleased and clapping, but were there any cat calls? Were there any negative thoughts? EG (00:41:31): If there were cat calls, I clearly blocked them out and it did not resonate with me. But my memory was, it was pretty eerie silence except for my immediate family. I felt I did not need a large audience to tell me what I had accomplished, and that I was pretty pleased with myself and felt that this was the first step in moving my life along. SM (00:42:09): How many were in your graduating class? EG (00:42:12): There was 600-plus graduating. SM (00:42:12): That is a big school. EG (00:42:13): Yeah. It was a big class. There were a couple of thousand students at Central. SM (00:42:21): You mentioned earlier, was there a feeling during the year by you and your peers that you must succeed in the classroom because other young African- Americans were looking to you as role models? EG (00:42:33): I think of the nine, there were much stronger students than myself, but education was such a big chunk for each of us, and we were competitive people, so we were going to be achievers in that just because we saw a school as a place where you tried to do as well as you could. And that was our history, whether we were at the Black school or the white school. SM (00:43:06): Governor Faubus, every time I have seen him on YouTube, he bugs me. I just do not like him. I never liked him. But just the way he talks, the way he looks, everything. What did that man, what did he symbolize to you? EG (00:43:26): Well, he symbolized the old segregationists, and that was what we were changing and driving out. I mean, I did not meet Faubus until later in life, but during that year, I did not have any contact with him. SM (00:43:48): Did he ever change? EG (00:43:48): Well, he said he did. Yeah. He and Wallace, and a number of the segregationists said they changed. I mean, Faubus came from a very progressive background back. In fact, my mother voted for Faubus when he first ran for governor. He really decided that he was going to play his race card to ensure that he would get reelected I guess. SM (00:44:20): When Wallace stood before the schoolhouse door, James Meredith was going in the back way. I mean, it seems so fake because you do things for moral reasons, not for political reasons, and it looks like even Wallace did it for publicity. EG (00:44:39): Well, these guys were all politicians extraordinaire. SM (00:44:43): Dr. King came to your graduation. What an honor. He sat with your parents. Did you know that he was coming or did he just come unannounced? EG (00:44:54): Well, I did not know he was coming. He had been speaking at a college about 45 miles from Little Rock, and he was close. He was in touch with Mrs. Bates. I did not know he was sitting with my family until the end of the ceremony. But it is quite an honor as something that obviously looking back on it, really makes a great exclamation point for my graduation. SM (00:45:36): Here you are 18 years old, and you are meeting Dr. King? EG (00:45:39): I am 16. SM (00:45:40): Oh, you were 16. Well, you graduated very young, but you- EG (00:45:48): I turned 17 in September. SM (00:45:49): Wow. What did Dr. King say to you and you to him? Did you have a chance to talk? EG (00:45:57): I, Steven, have to point out that I was 16, graduating from high school. After we said the pleasantries and said hello to each other, then thank you for coming out, I was more focused on going to my graduation party than recognizing the historic moment of King speaking at my graduation. SM (00:46:25): Right. I was wondering what the people that were in that audience must have known it was Dr. King. EG (00:46:32): This was early on in Dr. King's career, and that could have been a large number of people who did not know who he was. That was just another Black male there that. It is impossible to think that Martin Luther King could have been anywhere without the world knowing who he was, but this was really before his real ascendancy and into super fame that we know now. SM (00:47:10): It is interesting you say that because I interviewed Julius Lester earlier in the week, and Julius was talking about Malcolm X, and he said Malcolm X was not a very well-known person during his life, but after his death- EG (00:47:24): In fact, I went to school with Malcolm's brother. He was in college with me, Bob Little, because Malcolm spent part of his time at Lansing, Michigan before he came to New York. We were part of a generation of people that all the luminaries now and all the stardom, they were just ordinary people and did not have the fame and attention that they have now. SM (00:48:00): You went off to Michigan State University, which everybody knows is Magic Johnson's University. But the Magic came much later, but- EG (00:48:11): He came after I did. SM (00:48:13): And Michigan had a great football team too, during Bubba Smith. And I know- EG (00:48:18): Bubba was... I was there during the Herb Adderley era. SM (00:48:23): Oh, the great football players coming out of there. Hall of Famers. EG (00:48:27): Right. SM (00:48:27): I think Carl Banks came out of there too. But you went to Michigan State University and received both of your Bachelor's and Master's in (19)62 and (19)64? EG (00:48:35): Yes. SM (00:48:37): Why did you pick a Big 10 school? EG (00:48:40): Well, I got a scholarship to Michigan State, and I suspect that a big part of the reason I got the scholarship hopefully, was because I was an outstanding student, but also the president of Michigan State John Hannah was chairman of Eisenhower's Civil Rights Commission. I believe that had something else to do with it as well. So I mean, it was a great fit for me. It has been a tremendous experience. I have maintained great friendships from that Michigan State experience, and I am a proud Spartan. I bleed green and white. SM (00:49:27): Well, I am a Buckeye, so we are adversaries there, Ernie. But in sports, they had great football teams. They had some great basketball teams too. But at this stage in your life, as you are heading off and getting your degree, did you know when you went to Michigan State what you wanted to become? EG (00:49:50): No, I was interested in exploring a wide range of opportunities. Well, I thought I was going to maybe become a lawyer. I looked at pre-law as an area, but when I got to State, School of Labor Industrial Relations was something that I paid attention to. I had a series of summer jobs in New York with a number of labor unions. The Ladies Garment Workers Union, and every summer I came back and forth. I ended up working in New York for the summer. So it was the widening of those experiences at Michigan State that really allowed me to figure out some new things. SM (00:50:49): You had a lot more freedom there too, because could not get involved in student life at Little Rock but at Michigan State, you can get involved in everything. What was student life like during those six years? EG (00:51:03): Well, I was an active student. I was involved in student government. I chaired the campus NAACP for a couple years, the political organization, the Young Dems. So I was pretty active. SM (00:51:19): You were in a fraternity too, were not you? EG (00:51:20): I was Omega Psi Phi. SM (00:51:23): Oh yeah. We got that at Westchester. EG (00:51:25): Charter member of the fraternity. SM (00:51:29): See if we had known that when you came to Westchester University, we have a process now that anybody who was involved in an African American fraternity is honored. EG (00:51:41): Ah, all right. Well- SM (00:51:42): And we should have done that when you were here. EG (00:51:47): Well, no, in fact, I am going back this fall for the 50th anniversary of the founding of the fraternity. SM (00:51:55): Oh my gosh. Where was it founded? EG (00:52:01): Well, I mean, the chapter that we had at Michigan State is 50 years. The fraternity itself is 100 years this year. It was founded at Howard University. SM (00:52:12): Okay, very good. Were there protests going on during the time you were there? Because you are talking about... I guess the protest really started later on, but that Freedom Summer was happening and yeah. EG (00:52:27): Yeah. I mean, my opinion as head of the NAA, we were protesting lunch counters at Kresges and Woolworths and sit in, and then of course a little bit later the Vietnam War. SM (00:52:47): Hmm. EG (00:52:48): Yeah. SM (00:52:49): Did you bring anybody to the university to speak, or what speakers came to your school when you were there? EG (00:52:55): Well, one of the speakers that we brought was Malcolm X. SM (00:52:59): Oh, wow. EG (00:53:00): I was president of the NAACP and the African Students Union, we co-sponsored Malcolm speaking to the university. SM (00:53:16): What was the turnout? Pretty big? EG (00:53:18): It was huge. It was overflow. SM (00:53:21): And what did the president of the university think when he was coming? EG (00:53:25): Well, freedom of speech. He may have thought that it was not something he wanted, but he certainly allowed it to occur. SM (00:53:39): Yeah. Was he talking about by any means necessary at that time? EG (00:53:44): Yes, of course. Yeah. SM (00:53:44): And challenging Dr. King, and admired Rustin and the whole thinking of nonviolence. EG (00:53:52): No, he was challenging nonviolence and the Civil Rights Movement and a whole series of things. SM (00:53:58): Wow. Any other speakers? EG (00:54:07): I cannot think of any other national speakers that we had. SM (00:54:15): What did you learn from your college years that you did not know from your experience at Little Rock? EG (00:54:22): Well, I think the one major thing was the set of relationships and how they have been helpful to me throughout my life, and many of them people that you would not ordinarily have struck up a friendship or a relationship with. I learned from my Michigan State experience to try and be as broad as you could in getting to know people. SM (00:54:56): How many African American students were at Michigan State at that time? EG (00:55:00): I think between graduate and undergraduate, probably about 300, 350. SM (00:55:05): And that is a campus of over 30,000, I think. EG (00:55:09): Yeah. SM (00:55:11): 38 I think it is right now or 40, somewhere around there. Was it a bike campus when you were there? EG (00:55:17): To a certain degree. I mean, the weather was so cold. I think bikes were probably one way of getting around. This was before buses and all, because the period of time that I went, they were just trying to figure out how to become student friendly. Most Big 10 campuses had to work at that pretty hard. SM (00:55:47): Yeah. I know now that they call the biggest bike campus in America, they have more bikes there than any other college campus. My only experience with Michigan State was when I went there in the summer of (19)71 to visit a friend of one of my... SM (00:56:03): ... the summer of (19)71 to visit a friend of a friend of one of my graduate school friends from Ohio State, and we were stopped at the entrance because they thought we were coming to create protest. They were very suspicious of us because we had out-of-state license plates. That was back in (19)71. EG (00:56:16): Well, they probably had a jaundiced eye about outsiders. Yeah. SM (00:56:25): Yeah. Now we are getting into your work life. I know that from (19)68 to (19)77 you worked for the A Philip Randolph Fund. What did the work entail, and was this the time that you really got to know A Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin? EG (00:56:42): This was. This was the time of the apprenticeship program that I was the director of and had an opportunity to work with Bayard and to work with Mr. Randolph. SM (00:57:06): Now... EG (00:57:06): Well, this was also the effort on the part of the Randolph Institute to [inaudible] young African Americans into the Building Trades apprenticeship program. SM (00:57:21): And for a pretty young person, you were given some heavy responsibility then? EG (00:57:26): Yes. Well, and Bayard and Mr. Randolph encouraged that. They were big supporters of making certain that we had an opportunity to show our talent, show what we could do. SM (00:57:45): What is interesting is you remember this, Ernie, from the conference we had 10, going on 11 years ago now, I cannot believe. But one of the things that came out of it is the influence that Bayard Rustin had on so many young people in terms of being a role model, a mentor, and a believer. And I can remember someone at the conference saying that they once sat down, and they could come up with about 2,500 names of people that had been influenced by Bayard Rustin. He somehow really attracted people, did not he, with his ability to delegate and have faith in young people. EG (00:58:23): Yeah. No question about it. He was superb at that. SM (00:58:28): What was the relationship between Bayard Rustin and A Philip Randolph? Because I have always perceived that he kind of looked at his Randolph as a father figure almost. EG (00:58:36): Well, it was, that Mr. Randolph was someone that Bayard was... I am not aware of the full relationship, but that he admired Mr. Randolph immensely, and not only a father figure but probably closer to deity as you could get. SM (00:59:05): When you look at these two figures that I think need... Obviously, in Westchester now, there is greater recognition because the high school... I remember I kept you up to date on that. EG (00:59:15): Right. SM (00:59:16): And they got to make sure here... We got to always watch the school board here because there is always the possibility they may try to change it again. You cannot trust anybody here. But when you look at A Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin, what were the qualities that they possessed? These are things that I look at in leadership of, intelligence. EG (00:59:35): Well, I think the major quality was that these really are individuals who could see the future, and whether it was the protest activity, the Freedom Rides that Bayard did in the (19)40s, the first proposed March on Washington that Randolph had, going back to World War II. SM (01:00:00): (19)41, yep. EG (01:00:00): Yeah. The other marches and protests that they had before the (19)63 march. These are people who really could have a vision of who we are in a few years. SM (01:00:18): Could you hold that right there? I have to switch my tape here. Hold on one second. How is the weather down there? EG (01:00:25): ... problem. I am going to have to- SM (01:00:25): I guess we will- EG (01:00:25): I am going to have to leave in about five minutes. SM (01:00:32): Oh really? I got 30 more minutes, here. Oh, boy. EG (01:00:35): Can we call back? Can I call you- SM (01:00:38): Yes. EG (01:00:39): ... later on tonight or tomorrow? SM (01:00:41): Yep, sure thing. Yep. We can do it later tonight. I will get up a couple more questions in here, then we can finish it tonight. EG (01:00:47): Okay. Why do not we do that? And I can reach you on the (610) 436... SM (01:00:51): 9364. EG (01:00:53): 93, okay. SM (01:00:57): Do you want to stop now or just... EG (01:00:58): Yeah. I think this would be a good time for me to break, and then I will call you back. We will finish up this evening. SM (01:01:06): What time do you want to call? 8:00? EG (01:01:13): How is 8:30? SM (01:01:13): 8:30s fine. EG (01:01:15): Okay. SM (01:01:16): Thanks. EG (01:01:17): I will call you at 8:30. SM (01:01:17): Yep. Thanks, Ernie. Bye. EG (01:01:18): Thanks, bye. SM (01:01:22): Thanks for calling me back. The last question we were talking about was your impressions of A Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin. The March on Washington in 1963 took place when you were at Michigan State. Did you go to that event? EG (01:01:40): I did, and I drove all night, drove from Lansing to Washington. And we arrived the morning of the march, and I was with two other people. I was just out there among the 200,000 people participating in it. But I was at the march. SM (01:02:09): How close were you? Were you down by the... near the line? EG (01:02:15): I was by the Reflecting Pool, pretty far away from the... SM (01:02:18): Steps. EG (01:02:19): Yeah, the Abraham Lincoln Memorial, but yeah, close enough to be in the middle of... to have said that I was there. SM (01:02:36): That was such a historic event. During those years when you worked for Mr. Rustin and Mr. Randolph, did they often talk about that march because you were... EG (01:02:48): Well, Bayard did not spend a lot of time talking about it. I mean obviously, people around him... I had a chance to work with Rachelle Horowitz who was with the Workers Defense League and was one of the early people that was with Bayard, was staffing the Bayard tent. I always thought the miracle of the march, besides, of course, the leadership that Bayard and Mr. Randolph furnished was this was a whole period before cell phones and computers, and mobilize and move all of that humanity, pretty much on three-by-five cards, was an achievement that is unparalleled. SM (01:03:46): Yeah. I remember at the conference, and you may remember this too, I do not know who said it, but Mr. Rustin went out there very early in the morning, and there was not a soul there, and he was very worried. EG (01:04:03): Yeah, yeah. No. I mean, the buses, and people came by car and train, and they just all sort of appeared, just out of the ground, out of the sky. They all showed up. SM (01:04:16): I know there was an excellent YouTube that I listened to about a week ago that had Mr. Mankiewicz and James Baldwin and Marlon Brando and Harry Belafonte and Sidney Poitier and Charlton Heston. And they were talking- EG (01:04:35): Yeah. I mean, they had enough star power and all that. I mean, they were just participants. And while they were huge names, it was the 200,000 people who believed enough that this was the time to show witness, and they all came. SM (01:05:00): And you worked for Jimmy Carter too. You were appointed to the position of assistant secretary of housing and urban affairs. EG (01:05:08): No, I was assistant secretary of labor. SM (01:05:09): Oh, assistant secretary of labor. EG (01:05:11): Yeah. Oh. That is misinformation on the web. Yeah. No, the Google has the wrong info. No, I was the assistant secretary of labor and had responsibility for the Employment and Training program. SM (01:05:29): What did you think of Jimmy Carter? EG (01:05:31): Oh, I admired him. I thought Carter was... I thought he was an outstanding president, that as time goes on, I think, he will be understood more. And Carter really had as difficult at task as President Obama has. I mean, he was coming out of an economic doldrum and the oil shock and all. He got blamed for a lot of it. SM (01:06:06): Do you think it was a mistake to give the Malaise Speech? EG (01:06:14): Probably, because that was more than blaming the malaise on the time and the period. I have said many times that President Carter was probably better after he left the office than when he was having to deal with all the competing interests. SM (01:06:42): Yeah. He has been probably our best ex-president in terms of what he has done with his life. EG (01:06:47): Right. Yeah, absolutely. SM (01:06:49): The Carter Center, and he goes all over the world. At least he is away two weeks a year in some part of the world. He is always active. EG (01:06:58): No. He has been an outstanding, and he has had an intellectual grasp of all the things that are wrong with... or how things can be improved. I would not say things are wrong. SM (01:07:13): The one commentary, before I go to the next question, the criticism of President Carter is that he was so intelligent and so smart that he had to have his hands in everything, and he had a hard time delegating. EG (01:07:25): Yeah. He was not Lyndon Johnson in terms of how to figure out dealing with all the... especially the legislature, the House and the Senate. SM (01:07:41): You were an Eagle Scout, and I have a friend who was an Eagle Scout, Mike Arliss, and I know how difficult that is to even become one. And scouting has been a very important part of your life. How did you ever get started in that, and how did it impact your career? EG (01:08:01): Well, I got started in scouting because my best friend's grandfather was a scoutmaster, and it was, of course, some activity to be involved. And from that, I had received my Eagle Scout badge the year before I went to Central. When I was in the 11th grade, my friend and I, Waldo Brunson, were two of the youngest Eagle Scouts ever to receive the Eagle Scout Award. And many years later I went back to Little Rock. This was after college and all. And in (19)94, I think it was, they made me a Distinguished Eagle Scout. And I found scouting to give me a lot of leadership skills, and I benefited from that, I think, before I went to Central. SM (01:09:22): Was not there also that feeling that when you are a Boy Scout or even a Cub Scout, it is a feeling of camaraderie, fellowship, and also a lot of freedom. EG (01:09:32): Well, but also feeling of accomplishment. I mean, you have tasks. You have goals that you have to set, and it is a good preparation for future activity. SM (01:09:48): You have three kids, and I know one is an unbelievable historian, Adam. EG (01:09:54): Right. SM (01:09:55): What do your other kids do with their profession? And I guess the second part of my question is how did you teach them, when they were very young, about what you went through as a teenager in the South of the (19)50s? Because they grew up in another era, and here you are a parent talking to your children. EG (01:10:15): Well, my two daughters... Jessica lives in New York, and she is involved with a documentary film organization and has been able to make a career out of that. And then my youngest is a recent graduate of University of Miami, and she is soon to be a media... I think she is going to be my media mogul. She is both a... She studied communications at Miami and also minored in sports management. She has got a real ear and eye for the sports world. There was a double major between the media activity and the sports management. And the youngest, of course, is further away from any of the imagery of the (19)50s. But she is very savvy and so is Jessica in terms of the history. And they have seen from it that my difficulties were laying groundwork for them. And they see the past, the benefits from what we tried to do. And both McKenzie and Jessica have participated in a number of the events, and the anniversary affairs. They have been to Little Rock a number of times. They have [inaudible], and McKenzie particularly in those, the Jesse Jacksons of the world and others who played a role in the movement. In fact, McKenzie went to school with Andy Young's granddaughter. SM (01:12:29): Oh wow. EG (01:12:29): So it is a- SM (01:12:29): A small world. EG (01:12:31): It is a tiny world. And they recognize the benefits that they accrued from it. And I am always very pleased with their ability to recognize that and to want to contribute something during their generation. SM (01:12:55): Adam is an unbelievable historian, and I saw, of course, on Brother Outsider, but I had a chance to interview him last year. And then I know how much he has held in respect by all those people that were at that conference too. Did your experiences play a role in Adam becoming a historian? Because he has- EG (01:13:18): From me, he- SM (01:13:19): ...a tremendous knowledge of the whole Civil Rights era and all of American history. He is... EG (01:13:24): Yeah. Well, Adam comes out of a family of teachers on both sides, his mother's side and on my side of the family. So he caught the teaching bug early and wanted to continue to play a role. So I am proud of that spirit, that desire to pass on to the future generations, the information. He has done a great job with that. SM (01:14:05): You know what is amazing is... I am a history person. That was my undergraduate, and then my love of history. And for him to be at the University of Chicago right now, after going from the other school, I mean, I consider him one distinguished historian. And the interview I had with him was just outstanding. And his knowledge and his depth of understanding history in the connections that he can make between this event and that event is just... Well, they are very lucky to have him there. EG (01:14:35): Well, I think so too. Absolutely. SM (01:14:39): Now, the next question I have is when you look at the Civil Rights leaders that were very well known when you were going to college and so forth, Dr. King, James Farmer, Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, Bayard Rustin, and of course, John Lewis and Julian Bond and Dorothy Height. A J Muste played a role, too, in influencing Mr. Rustin. Nonviolence and Gandhi's approach was what they believed in. And then we had the next group that followed, which was Malcolm X. Then you had the Bobby Seales, the Stokely Carmichaels, the H Rap Browns, the Eldridge and Kathleen Cleaver, Huey Newton, Fred Hampton, and Angela Davis. And they had a different approach. It was more of a confrontational, by any means necessary, Black Power. Did you have a problem when this change happened? EG (01:15:41): Well, I mean, I always thought I was a lot more practical. I was somewhere in between the changes in style and approach. I mean, one of the reasons I found the work with the Randolph Institute and the apprenticeship program fulfilling was that we were results oriented. And sometimes some of the other activity was less results, and it is more optic. So yeah, I just felt there was still the strand that had been going on for some time. It was Du Bois and Booker T Washington. It was Garvey. It was something that we had seen before. SM (01:16:51): And actually, if you think about it, it was even Dr. King and Thurgood Marshall because if you remember, Dr. King admired Thurgood Marshall. But he also said that was a more gradualist approach, by going through the courts and laws and having laws passed. EG (01:17:07): Right. SM (01:17:07): Dr. King wanted it now. EG (01:17:10): Well, and I think each generation wants it now, but the reality is now requires a whole series of building blocks. If you think that the march at Edmond Pettus Bridge is really one of the things that helped bring about the Voting Rights Act, and the Voting Rights Act eventually led to President Obama. But the length of time it took to get from across the bridge to Obama was what, 30 years? SM (01:17:54): Yep. EG (01:17:55): Yeah. I always thought that Little Rock would be just another story in the long line of school cases. And I am still surprised that it stood out as one of the singular examples of that whole era. SM (01:18:25): Where did you stand on Dr. King, two things, when he proclaimed that we need to judge people not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character? And also he said we need to concentrate on people's economic conditions and not just race. And he was criticized for going away from the race issue toward more economics. And I think the conservatives today try to take Dr. King's words on content of their character as saying, "We got to get beyond race." They use it to their advantage. Get your thoughts on Dr. King's... on both of those areas. EG (01:19:04): Well, race is such a long and thorny part of this country. It is impossible to get away from race. But the economic, the ability to have decent jobs, decent housing all tied to the achievement... I see it as the achievement gap, the differentials between Black and white income. It is intertwined. It is not an either/or. That was the great experience working with Bayard and Mr. Randolph, that that got reinforced all of the time. SM (01:19:55): Dr. King was also criticized for going North, where many belief he should have stayed in the South and concentrated on racism there. And I think Bayard Rustin, if I am not mistaken, was against him going North and believed that he should have made his efforts staying in the South. And I just had an interview with Julius Lester, and he said he thought King failed miserably up in the North, and he should have stayed in the South. Your thoughts on that because Dr. King saw racism everywhere. EG (01:20:26): Well, that is where income gap and other things all intertwined. It was, excuse the pun, a lot less Black and white in the North than it was issues in the South. And whether it was Chicago or wherever, it was the politics of it, the history all made it more murkier than the battles in Birmingham and Mississippi and other places, and Arkansas. So yeah, in a lot of ways, I mean, Dr. King was always being pushed to do something else, other than what he was doing. SM (01:21:16): Do you think he failed in the North? EG (01:21:18): I do not think so. I mean, at the end of the day, he highlighted the duplicity that while you did not have formal segregation in the North, you had de facto segregation. And it was the same as the Jim Crow rules. Either formally or informally, you were not there. SM (01:21:47): Where do we stand today in the area of civil rights? Is there still a long way to go? Or where are the specific weaknesses still? Some people will say that all of the movements, not just the Civil Rights Movement but the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the environmental movement, the Chicano, Asian American, even some of the anti-war, that they have all weakened. They are not seen as much. They are not heard. And if they are heard, they are singular in their approach, and they do not work together. EG (01:22:21): Well, that is probably an apt criticism of them. Yeah. I think the Civil Rights Movement today is still wrestling with some of the same issues, education, housing, jobs, and trying to see how you can have a broader benefit. I mean, that is what all of these movements are suffering from, is how do you broaden the benefit space beyond just a few being able to grow and gain from it. To me, that is the issue we wrestle with in this country. SM (01:23:05): I remember seeing an interview with you on YouTube, where at the 50th anniversary of the 1957... It is at the high school. Somebody asked you a question regarding that there were very few African Americans still at the school in Little Rock. Is that true? EG (01:23:29): Well, that was in... They have general courses, and then they have all of the college prep on the advanced courses, and the number of African American youngsters in the advanced placement programs were relatively small compared to where they were placed in the general studies. This is an issue that I do not think is only in Little Rock. EG (01:24:03): I do not think is only in Little Rock, but- SM (01:24:04): It is all over the country. EG (01:24:05): With a lot of school systems. Yeah. SM (01:24:08): And I know it is that way in Philly. EG (01:24:11): And that is an issue that we have to address. And I always thought that my youngest daughter many times had the attitude of many of the teachers were that somehow, she could not do the advanced work. She proved for them to be wrong on that. It is a mindset that reinforces it. When I was a graduate student at Michigan State, did a study on just Detroit school systems and the extracurricular things that as the school turned more and more African American, the special programs like the chess club and the science fair, I mean, all these things started being removed. The assumption was they were removing them even before the students had an opportunity to discover whether they could perform the work or not. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and to me, this is one of the things that we have got to break through. SM (01:25:38): But I know that in 1999, all members of the Little Rock Nine, all nine of you received the Congressional Gold Medal. That must have been quite an experience. EG (01:25:51): It was. It was a high moment. Had not expected it to occur, going back to (19)57. SM (01:25:59): How did you find out that this was happening then? Were you called and said, please come? We are honoring all of them. EG (01:26:07): It is a long process. We were sponsored by Congressman Benny Thompson from Mississippi, and it requires the approval of both the House of Representatives and the Senate. SM (01:26:24): Wow. EG (01:26:29): Congressman Thompson proposed it on the house side and Senator Bumpers proposed it on the Senate side, Bumpers and Pryor. But it took almost a year for the whole system to work itself through. SM (01:26:47): Was your mother there? EG (01:26:49): No, my mother had passed. SM (01:26:52): Okay. I just was hoping she may have been there. And with respect to President Obama, do you think he has done a fairly decent job in civil rights or I know he has been caught up in all these other issues. Where would you put him? Would you give him a grade so far? EG (01:27:08): I would give him an A. I think that he has wrestled with a number of the issues because of what he inherited. And I am of the opinion that legislation at this moment is probably not what we need as much as some policy changes and his continuation on the economy. The economy affected particularly the black community. It devastated it. Home ownership, manufacturing, the industrial belt, loss of jobs. All of that has had a very detrimental effect. SM (01:28:06): It is interesting that he is so vilified by so many, and you watch television shows that... someone sent me an email the other day saying the reason why African Americans voted for President Obama was because he was an African American and they did not look at his policies. And to me, that is signs that that is a racist statement to me. Then also President Obama's critics say that he is the epitome of the return of the (19)60s. President Obama will say, "I have nothing to do with the (19)60s," because he was two years old. EG (01:28:49): Well, I think there is a segment of people in this country that just realize that President Obama is not Caucasian and they are still shocked. My view in a changing world in which the next 30, 40 years, the world is going to be multiethnic that a group of people here still clinging to the old days in Little Rock. They would like to reverse this country back to pre-Supreme Court decision in (19)54. SM (01:29:37): Now Ernie, one thing I will never forget is Henry Cisneros, the former mayor I believe, of San Antonio. EG (01:29:43): Oh, yeah. Yeah. SM (01:29:45): Before he got into trouble, he was speaking in the (19)90s at the NASPA conference that I attended. The higher ed conference. There was this young woman who stood up, a white woman, very well-dressed. She approached and she said he had just given a great lecture on what we were saying, that we were all going to be working for people who are of different color and so forth down the road and just be prepared because this is America. America's changing, and that is okay. It is part of what America is. She stood up and said that she was very afraid of the future and asked him what words of advice that he could give to her after she had just listened to this great lecture, which she should have gotten it. And basically his commentary was, "You need to prepare for the future because the future means that you are going to be working for people of different colors throughout your life." And it is not something to fear, it is just something to, it is part of the evolution of our country. It was an unbelievable moment. And she was afraid of... She was obviously was not prepared for all the changes. Do you think as a nation we have an issue with healing within this nation? Especially within the boomer generation, those born between (19)46 and (19)64, that due to the tremendous divisions that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between black and white, male and female, gay and straight. Even those who supported the war, against the war. Do you think that they are going to go to their graves like the Civil War generation went to its grave not truly healing to... EG (01:31:31): I do not think so. I think there is a lot more. My focus on change. I went back last year for my 50th high school reunion. The class that I graduated with at Central. I said that I could not find anybody in that room who would at this time, wanted to prevent me from going to school there. Everybody wanted to be my best friend. I am sure there is a segment of this country that they can assess to it, but I think for the most part, whether it is getting used to the Internet or getting used to the fact that the good old boys do not run it anymore. I see people making that adjustment and beginning to live with that change. SM (01:32:44): Our students asked that question to Senator Redmond Muskies in 1995, the year before he died. His response was they thought he was going to talk about (19)68 and the convention and all the assassinations that year and that terrible year. That is what students thought he was going to respond. His response is, "We have not healed since the Civil War and the issue of race." He went on to explain in detail, and he actually had tears in his eyes. He had tremendous emotion talking about it. And he gave kind of a history lesson of racism and talked about the Civil War and 600,000 men died in that war. And he made no mention of 1968 or the (19)60s. EG (01:33:35): I do not subscribe to that. I think that probably is a segment who would, or all these re-enacters, but most of the people know that the Civil War we fought, oh, about a hundred years ago, has got to be behind us. And if we want to survive as a country, we can get ourselves stuck in that. But going forward is going to require a lot more. SM (01:34:08): Would you say also that the boomer generation and I include everybody of color because when I am talking about the boomer generation, I am talking every color, ethnic group, male, female, gay and straight. Do you think as a group they do not trust? That is because of the experiences that they had growing up, the lies that were told to them by leaders in all capacities, and certainly at the national level with President Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin, Watergate with Richard Nixon, Eisenhower or the U-2 incident, McNamara and the numbers game from the war. You could not believe anybody. There was a sense that you could not trust anybody in leadership. EG (01:34:55): Well, I take the view that it is because we have so much more information and there is a certain innocence if America had the same focus on World War II and death camps and a whole series of other things going on that we have now, people would have been probably even a lot more suspicious about the outcome from the end of World War II or even the First World War. I mean, it is a fact of changes that occurred, the amount of information we have, the ability to question authority. All of that seems to me as is what the boomer generation has had an opportunity to deal with. SM (01:36:00): Yes, and it is interesting if you are a political science major. The first thing you learn in political science 101 is that not trusting your government means that is a strong citizenry because it is good not to trust your government. Keep them on their toes. EG (01:36:15): Well, and you learn to question everybody everywhere. SM (01:36:20): I only got three more questions and I am done. All right. Was the early civil rights movement sexist with respect to very few women were in leadership roles. I have read so many books saying that the women's movement came about because of the sexism that took place within the civil rights and anti-war movement. EG (01:36:41): We had the nine. We had six women and three young men, so we dealt with female leadership very early. And as far as the leadership of the Whitney Youngs and the Randolph's and Wilkins and all, my experience, when I was in college was a growing number of young women who were attending school and playing leadership roles. For me, it was the best of a problem. SM (01:37:30): And again, a lot of the women's movement people have said they have moved over because of that. And one of the examples that is used is that March on Washington in (19)63 when all you saw was Dorothy was Dorothy Height really to the right and Mahalia Jackson singing. So it was all men, but I guess everybody has their own perceptions. Where were you when JFK was killed and subsequently, where were you when MLK and Bobby Kennedy were killed? Do you know exactly where you were when all three of those things happened? EG (01:38:03): Well, when Kennedy was killed, I was at Michigan State. I was in graduate school when Dr. King was killed, I was coming to New York. Well, I was living in New York and I had just landed on a plane in LaGuardia. When Bobby Kennedy was killed, I am not sure where I was. I think I was in New York, but being in... And JFK I remember vividly where I was at the time I was there. SM (01:38:52): Yeah, I guess I have asked others. There were so many assassinations. You had John Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, you had Medgar Evers, you had Malcolm X, you had even the attempt on Wallace and Gerald Ford was... Somebody tried to shoot him, but it was really had no chance. Then the Ronald Reagan. It seems like, and there are others too, what does that say about America when people in positions of responsibility... Dr. King used to always say, "You can kill the dreamer, but you cannot kill the dream." It is... EG (01:39:28): Yeah. Well, and I think my own personal experience that all of the political balance, I guess if we were protected by angels, because you could have walked into... This is before metal detectors and searches and all. They could have been guns at Michigan centralized. But, we have this wild west mentality sometimes. Then the availability of guns that I just think you have to continue to get people to try to settle disputes and something other than physical violence. That was, to me, the legacy of Dr. King, that the most important weapon is what is between your head and your brain. Tired a cliché as that may seem, that is still to me the important legacy of his teaching. SM (01:40:54): Well, do you think... You have been to the Vietnam Memorial? EG (01:40:59): Yes. SM (01:41:00): What Was your feelings when you went there for the first time? What was going through your mind? EG (01:41:06): Well, that a lot of people lost their lives for what was basically a changing set of demographics. And now we look up and Vietnam is a trading partner of ours, and we are sending tourists over there and people are buying and selling goods and services. It is- SM (01:41:36): Amazing what times does. EG (01:41:38): Yeah. And I believe that we had to lose a lot of good people for the country to understand this was a changing set of events over there that we probably should have let occur rather than trying to how to disrupt them. SM (01:42:04): You have been involved in many boards, but one that really interested me was the one that started in 2004, which was Scout Reach, where you were involved as a volunteer director of serving 600 boys in distressed areas of England. How did you become involved and... EG (01:42:27): Scout Reach? Well, Scout Reach is part of the effort to give scouting to young men who do not come from traditional middle-class families. And it was, I guess, part of the outgrowth of the service end of my growing up experiences that you are expected to try to serve and impact somebody beyond yourself and them. SM (01:43:04): Any Eagle Scouts out of there yet? EG (01:43:07): None that I am aware. Not yet. SM (01:43:11): Okay. I am sure the first one that makes it, you will go bring them to the United States or whatever. My last question is this, history books are often written 50 to 75 years after an event. And that is the best books are sometimes take that long to really understand the period. When you look at this post-World War II America, civil Rights, the anti-war movement, certainly all the other movements, the activism, the backlash with Ronald Reagan coming in 1980, the rise of the conservatives and so forth, and then back and forth. Now we have President Obama. So the last 65 years that boomers have been alive have been unbelievable times as you have described so well in answering some of my questions. What do you think the history books and the sociologists and historians will say after the last boomer has passed on from all ethnic groups and anyone who even is alive? EG (01:44:13): I think that this period is probably the most dynamic period that this country has ever seen. I view the last 50 years for me is probably some of the greatest changes that have occurred in this country and in this society. And the future is it is going to get faster, changes are going to be even greater. And I think this boomer generation has an opportunity to help prepare whatever we call the next generation to accept change and be ready for it to occur in a really rapid succession. SM (01:45:09): Well, the naysayers and doubters that criticize this generation, and there are many, a lot of them placed the blame on boomers for the ... Because of the sexual revolution, the divorce rate, the welfare state mentality, the lack of respect for law and order. These are terms that come from the backlash, especially toward anyone that was involved in activism. But what do you think? How do you respond to these people who make general commentaries that the problems we face in our society today go right back to that period of the (19)60s and (19)70s? The counterculture, the culture wars. We saw it with John Kerry when he ran for president in 2004, that they cannot get over what he said as a member of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. It is non-ending. EG (01:46:08): Well, but there is a crowd that would blame change on anything other than their ability to accept it. My attitude is we continue to push on and push beyond them. SM (01:46:27): My last commentary was, and I have heard this in my interviews, is well, the boomer generation said they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, and war, bring peace. Look at the world today. I would say they have not done it. When you hear that, and it is a general commentary toward this generation that thought they were so special. EG (01:46:52): Well, my aunt says that the founding fathers said that they were going to create a society of equality. And we had a lot of the leadership, Jefferson and Washington and others who were big slave owners. It is an imperfect world. We were always working to make changes. And my view is these ideals that we want to try to achieve, we just have to keep working on them. And that was my view when I went to Little Rock Central in (19)57 that I did not know if I would create a perfect world, but I knew I had to start somewhere. SM (01:47:38): And your current work that you have been doing since (19)85 to today? EG (01:47:43): Well, I have been an investment banker with a couple of firms, and now I am involved with an effort in partnership with a couple of other people to create a fund and private equity and see if we cannot grow some businesses. SM (01:48:07): And we need businesses today. No question about that. Ernie, I do not know if you have any final comments or all. I am done. EG (01:48:13): No, I think you have covered quite a waterfront, so I will look forward to seeing the final outcome. SM (01:48:23): Great. And what I will do is you will see your transcript. I am going to be hibernating for about nine months, transcribing all these myself. And then of course the final approval will be when you see it, and then you will make any corrections or whatever. EG (01:48:40): All right. I will look forward to seeing it. SM (01:48:43): And finally, I am going to need two pictures of you, but I will come down to Washington and take your picture sometime in the spring or early summer. EG (01:48:48): Okay, very good. I will look for it. SM (01:48:51): Ernie, thank you very much. Continued success in everything you do. My heart will be there at the University of Arkansas when they honor your mom. EG (01:49:00): Yeah. Okay. Well... SM (01:49:02): What day is that? EG (01:49:03): It is the Sunday of Mother's Day. SM (01:49:06): Wow. EG (01:49:07): So I think it is like the 13th or 14th. SM (01:49:11): Well, your mom will be right there with you. EG (01:49:12): All right. SM (01:49:13): She will be there. EG (01:49:15): Thank you. SM (01:49:15): Ernie, you have a great day and thank you very much. EG (01:49:17): All right. You too. Goodbye. SM (01:49:17): Bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ernest Green Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Green, Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon), 1941- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights workers; Consultants; Investment advisors; Central High School (Little Rock, Ark.)--History; School integration--Arkansas--Little Rock--History--20th century; Green, Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon), 1941--Interviews Description An account of the resource Ernest Green is a consultant, investment executive, and Civil Rights Leader. Green was one of the first black students to integrate at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, following the Supreme Court 1954 ruling to desegregate. Green graduated with a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in Sociology from Michigan State University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.195 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 109:21 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f48faf363937b460ff58a641bfc917b.jpg d29da20a559336af4fe4dadd5ff4e262 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c2f6442516cbced88191f47fb61fd983.mp3 596a67f57590ccbbaa5dcefd186632dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1996 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eugene J. McCarthy, 1916-2005 Language English Biographical Text Eugene McCarthy (1916 - 2005), a native of Watkins, Minnesota was a politician, academic, author, and poet. He spent twenty-two years in the halls of the United States Congress representing the state of Minnesota; ten years in the House of Representatives and twelve years in the United States Senate (1948-1970).  He received a graduate degree from the University of Minnesota and became a professor of Economics before serving in World War II. The nation and the world got to know Senator McCarthy during the 1960s as the war in Vietnam escalated for he was a major opponent against President Johnson's handling of the war.  He was the first Democrat to challenge President Lyndon Johnson in the 1968 primaries. The happenings in Vietnam, TET, played a major role in these stunning developments since McCarthy was running on an anti-war platform. Senator McCarthy could not overtake Hubert Humphrey, President Johnson's choice as the Democratic nominee for president.  In later years, he ran for president a few more times but did not receive the widespread support he had in 1968 as the first courageous Democrat to challenge a sitting president of his own party. Eugene McCarthy was a very gifted writer and poet throughout his life, publishing more than 20 books. Senator McCarthy passed away in 2005 and was honored at the National Cathedral in Washington, DC where President Clinton gave the eulogy. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 89:31 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; College students; Activism; Generation gap; Technology; Scott Fitzgerald; Vietnam War; Civil War; Hubert Humphrey, Thurgood Marshall; Abbie Hoffman; Jerry Rubin; Ralph Nader."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305}}">Baby boom generation; College students; Activism; Generation gap; Technology; Scott Fitzgerald; Vietnam War; Civil War; Hubert Humphrey, Thurgood Marshall; Abbie Hoffman; Jerry Rubin; Ralph Nader. Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; Poets, American; Authors; Presidential candidates—United States; McCarthy, Eugene J., 1916-2005--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eugene McCarthy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCarthy, Eugene J., 1916-2005 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; Poets, American; Authors; Presidential candidates—United States; McCarthy, Eugene J., 1916-2005--Interviews Description An account of the resource Eugene McCarthy (1916 - 2005), a native of Watkins, Minnesota was a politician, poet, academic, presidential candidate and critic of the Vietnam War. McCarthy served in the United States House of Representatives from 1949 to 1959 and the United States Senate from 1959 to 1971. After leaving the Senate, McCarthy spent his time to speaking engagements and writing, publishing more than 20 books. Eugene McCarthy (1916 - 2005), a native of Watkins, Minnesota was a politician, academic, author, and poet. He spent twenty-two years in the halls of the United States Congress representing the state of Minnesota; ten years in the House of Representatives and twelve years in the United States Senate (1948-1970). He received a graduate degree from the University of Minnesota and became a professor of Economics before serving in World War II. The nation and the world got to know Senator McCarthy during the 1960s as the war in Vietnam escalated for he was a major opponent against President Johnson's handling of the war. He was the first Democrat to challenge President Lyndon Johnson in the 1968 primaries. The happenings in Vietnam, TET, played a major role in these stunning developments since McCarthy was running on an anti-war platform. Senator McCarthy could not overtake Hubert Humphrey, President Johnson's choice as the Democratic nominee for president. In later years, he ran for president a few more times but did not receive the widespread support he had in 1968 as the first courageous Democrat to challenge a sitting president of his own party. Eugene McCarthy was a very gifted writer and poet throughout his life, publishing more than 20 books. Senator McCarthy passed away in 2005 and was honored at the National Cathedral in Washington, DC where President Clinton gave the eulogy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.85a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 89:31 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3d73c341e8f198d0ac3aa4e95f354756.mp3 9d7a36a2fde45db28cbdf7dfaafe5444 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Goundrey, Eunice Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wood, Wanda Date of Interview 1978-06-22 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 42:08 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55931">Interview with Eunice Goundrey</a> Subject LCSH Goundrey, Eunice -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Rockettes (Dance company); Dancers -- Interviews; Radio City Music Hall (New York, N.Y.); Ballet Arts (New York, N.Y.); Roxyettes (Dance company); Dance teachers Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Eunice Goundrey Interviewed by: Wanda Wood Date of interview: 22 June 1978 Wanda: This is Wanda Wood interviewing Miss Eunice Goundrey of 17 Esther Avenue, Binghamton[, New York]. The date is 22 June, 1978. Eunice, you've, um, been a dancer most of your life. And we'd like to, ah, hear some of your viewpoints and experiences in that line. Also, anything else that you want to put on tape for this historical project. To begin with, where were you born, and what was your family background? Eunice: I was born in Binghamton, ah, in the old city hospital which is now General Hospital. Ah, my mother and father were both Binghamtonians. Ah, my mother's family was the, ah, S.J. Kelley engraving company and my father's family…ah, my granddad was Glen Goundrey. And, ah…at one time, he was a blacksmith in the area. And he went into building custom truck bodies and eventually, as he got older, was in charge of the Spaulding Bakery, ah, garage. And that's where he retired from. Wanda: Did he have his own business, this truck building? Eunice: Yes. On Noyes Island. Yes. Yeah. Yes. The Goundreys were originally from the Elmira area—Watkins Glen—and then they, they moved to Binghamton. Wanda: So your early years were spent right here on Esther Avenue, were they? Eunice: Yes. Wanda: And you've been here ever since? Eunice: I think I'm one of the very, one of the very few people that is still living in a home that she was brought to as a baby. [laughter] Wanda: That's true, in this day and age. Eunice: I've gone away and come back and decided this is where I wanted to stay. Wanda: Well how did you get started with, with, ah, dancing? What was your, who influenced you the most on that? Eunice: My mother. Wanda: Your mother. Eunice: My mother was a dancer. Ah, she had had dance training, and though she didn't go on professionally with it, everybody that I have ever talked with, ah, said that, ah, she…had that something extra special that, ah… I never saw my mother dance. And I'm sorry I didn't, but by the time I came along, you see, she had retired and had started to teach, but I—ah, there were no movies at that time for us to capture her, but, ah, she apparently was the darling of Binghamton as far as dance was concerned, and, ah, not so much now because most of her contemporaries are gone, but, ah, people while I was younger would say, "Oh your mother was absolutely, you know, just a beautiful dancer." So she started to teach, anyway, and as my sister and I came along she felt that dance was very much a part of every person's education—whether you used it or not—you benefited from it. So when we were three, four, five years old she had ballet classes and we were expected to take them. So we, ah, did our duty. And you know, Mommy was the teacher and, ah…as we got older, she felt that we should have other training besides just what she could give us. Wanda: Was she mainly a ballet dancer? Eunice: Yes. She did very little tap dancing, but, ah, some people come to town—ah, Lou Fields and Jack Evans, which she felt—um, were of good caliber and so she enrolled us in their school for the tap dancing and continued the ballet with us and from then on, you know, we went on. But she—ah, Mommy was the biggest influence. She never pushed either of us into the dance, but she encouraged us, and I think there's a difference. Wanda: And did your sister continue…to dance? Eunice: Through high school she did, but she didn't care anything about going on further with it. And, ah, when I was in high school, I was teaching for Fields and Evans and had made up my mind I definitely was never going to be a teacher. I was off to New York to perform and that's all there was to it. Well, I knew I had to go to school, you know, to get added training and so forth, but, ah, I never dreamed I would come back and be a teacher and find the fulfillment in it that I have found. Wanda: That's marvelous. So, so where did you continue with your dance lessons after you…? Eunice: I went to the—um, Ballet Arts School in Carnegie Hall for ballet and I also went to the Roy Dodge school, for tap. Jazz was just, just beginning to come in, so that it was just one of those things, you don't know whether it's going to take hold or not and my interest was in the tap and, and the ballet anyway, so that was where I fitted. [Interruption from a motorbike] Wanda: Then—ah, how long—did you live in New York while you were going to these two different schools? Eunice: Yes—um, Shirley Lewis was a former neighbor of mine and she was at NYU at the time, and she was looking for a roommate at the time that I was looking for a place to stay. And—ah, so our mothers got together and decided that the two of us should be roommates. Wanda: And how old were you at the time? Eunice: Eighteen. [laughter] Wanda: Whee—alone in the big city, eh? Eunice: Yes. Yeah. So I went to school and—ah, for a year. Just about. Yes. And then I took the audition at...well, I decided it was about time I made some money and that was a laugh. Um—I—but I wanted to do theatrical work as opposed to nightclub work. So I took an audition at—ah—the Latin Quarter, and also at Radio City Music Hall. And the Music Hall audition came first but—ah, they said they would let us know, which is normal, and then I got a recall from Music Hall. There were about a hundred girls in the first call—in audition—and then they asked a few of us to come back again. And out of that there were another hundred that were all there for audition. And out of—well, what turned out to be about two hundred girls, six of us were chosen. And at the time that acceptance came through, ah, the day before the acceptance had come from the Latin Quarter and I was really upset because I, I didn't really want to do the nightclub work. And I thought—but, you know, I really should do something. And then the Music Hall acceptance came, so I—that's the one I took—and I've never been unhappy. Nightclub work is different than theater—ahm—it's very often—ahm—at the time—ahm—a case where you, ah, must sit down with the customers and, you know, mingle a little bit. Nothing beyond that, but…ah, between shows, I wanted the time to myself. And, you know, I wanted to be a dancer, period. And in the theater you get that—ahm, in nightclub work, you're not so apt to. Wanda: The Latin Quarter has folded, hasn't it? Eunice: Yes…yeah. Wanda: And Radio City Hall has nearly folded. Eunice: Yes, it's on its last legs. Yes. Yeah. Ahm—this, ah, last season. Where as I understand it, the state has taken over the payroll and will keep it open at least for another year. Wanda: And with the Rockettes. Eunice: Yes. And the Rockettes now are being starred as they ought to be. Wanda: Good. Eunice: Ahm—I had a notice from the alumni association saying that in this last show that they're doing, the girls are doing three different numbers instead of just one appearance, as they usually do. So the girls—I'm sure they're not getting any more money—but they are at least, you know, coming into their own. Because whenever anybody speaks about Radio City, ahm, Music Hall, it's the Rockettes that come to mind. Wanda: Naturally. Eunice: So, ah…but they were always kind of played down as part of the production. And now they are the featured ones. Which is good. Wanda: So the publicity hasn't been bad. Eunice: No. No. It's a shame, though. Now the last show before the supposed closing, the crowds were around the blocks again and, you know, people were standing in line two and three hours to get in, waiting to get in the way it used to be years ago. And since the reprieve (chuckle) has been given—ahm—the crowds are down again and, ah, so I don't know whether it's the fact that, ah, Music Hall has outlived itself. I know other large theaters in New York…got to that point, but, ah, if it has outlived itself, I will feel better that they have had a year to think it over. Ah—I was told that in December they had gotten all their union contracts signed and were breathing a sigh of relief because that gave them all another two years, you know, before this hassle would start again. And then in January the management announced that the Hall would close. So everybody was panic-struck. And—ah, you know, to me they, they were going to make a major decision with not enough time to think about it. They, to me they will never be able to replace a building like that. The—ah, it was built during the Depression when labor was cheap. Ah—it has facilities in it that probably never could be re—ah—produced, you know, this day and age. Ah—so—to have it torn down and then three or four years from now say, “Gee, you know, we don't have any facility like this." I feel in a year's time they will have at least had a chance to think it over. If then they decide to do it, I will—I will not be happy, but at least I'll feel that they have followed through. Wanda: Do you remember the physical layout? Was it built especially for the theater? Eunice: Yes…yeah. Wanda: It was probably quite revolutionary at the time, then, wasn't it—when it was built? Eunice: Yes. That stage, Wanda, is half of the size of a football field. And—ah, you know, beside all the mechanical things that I, I don't know anything about, you know, but—just to lift that huge—big—ah, front curtain took systems that were almost unheard of at the time that that was built in ‘32. So it's, uh, it was… Wanda: What were the living facilities like in the—in the theater? Didn't you have a place— Eunice: No, you never lived in the theater. There was an infirmary and there was a—well, like a, a den sort of thing for the girls to relax in. There was a cafeteria downstairs. That was for all the Music Hall force. Ah, anyone employed there was, you know, could eat there. Ahm…but it was, it was a glorified backstage life. Ahm—primarily dressing rooms and rehearsal halls. There is a rehearsal hall above the theater, ahm, that is, has the same dimensions as the stage. So that the 36 Rockettes, for instance, could, could get in the rehearsal hall, you know, to do a complete rehearsal…with no problems…with spacing and everything else. Wanda: Were there backup girls to—ah, in case somebody couldn't go on? Eunice: There were always thirty-six on stage and twelve on vacation. So if there was a problem then one of the girls on vacation would be called back in. Now you were called—ahm—it was three weeks on, three weeks on stage and one week off, but of that one week off you had to rep—I think—as I recall the week went from Wednesday to Tuesday. So you were required to be back in there on Sunday to find out your spacing from the week that you were coming in. So you didn't really have a full week off. You weren't dancing on stage, but you were, you know, required to be around. Ah—no—many a girl went on stage feeling—very badly, but ahm, the shoes went on and costume went on and the dance went on and you went off and you laid down between shows and you started all over again [chuckles] for four or five shows a day. Wanda: And how often did they change the theme of the, the show? There was always a terrific thing about the Easter show and the Christmas show and the seasonal— Eunice: Well, the holidays—ahm—governed the change of that particular—of the holiday shows, but basically it was the attraction of the movie that governed the stage show. If people were not coming to see the movie then we might run three weeks. If they were piling in, we might do the show for five weeks, because the, the stage show never changed unless the movie changed. So…and then, ah, we would have a week's notice because the, the planning—the preliminary work—is done far in advance for a show, but for staging it, it's all done within a week's time. So Mr. Markert, the Director of the Rockettes at the time, said that if you couldn't learn a routine in a week he couldn't use you. So you're learning one routine while you were dancing on stage doing another one, and—ah, it's an experience but it's, it's, ah… Wanda: Must have been a fast pace. Eunice: It was. I enjoyed it very, very much. I was also very glad to get out of it. [laughs] Wanda: What do you suppose the average, ah, time was that a girl would stay with the Rockettes? Eunice: I don't know the average. Ahm—some of the girls were there for years, and years and years. Ahm—one of the girls, I know, opened the Music Hall and she retired about ten years ago, you know, and I'm sure that was the exception, but—a lot of the girls stayed for a long, long time and there were others that didn't, and I was one of them. Wanda: Do you keep in touch through this alumni association that you have? Eunice: Yes. Ahm—during all this furor of Music Hall closing, ahm—of course there was a lot of publicity in all parts of the country. And, ah, I made a couple of phone calls to girls that I had…I knew their names but I, you know, had long since lost touch with them...but—ahm—when they wanted to interview me here on the radio, I wanted to be sure my facts were up to date, so I got in touch with one and she put me in touch with another one and—it was very interesting. There is a bond from having worked at Music Hall .. that is lasting. It doesn't make any difference whether you knew that particular person at the time or not. Ahm—the fact that you were somebody that worked in the, in the Hall, that, that makes it. So—I have a great big family that's spread all over the country. Wanda: A very exclusive club, I would say. Eunice: Yes. Yes. We're all very proud to have worked there and been part of it. 'Cause it's—ahm—well, it's unique. Ahm, there's no other house in all the world like that. The seating capacity is, think it's 6200. That's a lot of seats to fill every day—four times a day, and that's what it really should be doing, you see. And that's the problem now, that, ah, they're not filling those 6200 seats. Wanda: Well, New York itself has changed so much and so people are a little reluctant to go, just for— Eunice: I am a little reluctant to go, even—these days, ahm. If I am in the City for a dance convention or something of the sort I always go to Music Hall. I, you know I like to go and I know that's one place I can take any of my students and not have to worry about what they're going to see, but we used to always go to the last show—the nine o'clock show—and then go back to the hotel. Now we never wait for the last show, we go to the early evening, you know, six-thirty, seven o'clock, so I can get those kids in off the street. Wanda: Sad. Eunice: It is. So—and I know the people around the New York area itself are worse than I am. They won't, and they won’t go on the streets of New York after dark. So if that's the feeling in the metropolitan area, nothing's going to…I don't think, you know, be a great big moneymaker until the climate of the city changes. People going to theaters will get a hotel and—ah, take a cab and get a cab outside the theater and go back to the hotel. They're—ah, very much afraid to be on the streets. And when I was living down there I felt just as safe as anything. No qualms at all. I walked the streets completely by myself and—no worry at all, but I, I don't have that feeling now. And I don't think it's all me, having gotten older and looking at things differently. Ahm—when my brother-in-law was alive, ahm—and Dick was Assistant Chief of Police here, and he used to warn me, and when he and my sister were first married he never said a word. But he would say, you know, "You just—be careful where you go," and from him that was enough, because, that was enough warning. He was not an alarmist. Wanda: So you're very lucky to be there at the time that you were, weren't you? Eunice: I think so. Yes. Yeah. Wanda: It would be an entirely different thing now. Eunice: I don't really encourage my kids—ahm—to think theater and professional dance. Wanda: Your students. Eunice: Mm-hm. If they want to, you know, I would not discourage them, but at one time, you know, the only reason you danced was so that you could be on stage or—or—ah, continue with the dance part of it in some way and, ahm, I have felt or a long, long time and perhaps because of my mother's influence again, ah—dance should be a part of everybody's education. If, if you dance you will appreciate it, you'll also understand it better and you gain from the discipline that is required from it, as well as the grace and the poise that comes, you know, from having pursued it a little bit longer. But, ahm, I think more and more people now are looking at it that this will add to a child's education. From…as they get older what they do with it is their own business, but it's still, it's like taking piano or an instrument or it's part of the artistic education…for the youngster. Wanda: It builds confidence. Eunice: It does. It does. Wanda: And poise, as you say. Eunice: I…one of my favorite stories is, um…a dear little girl that I had years ago. Her mommy, ahm…she was a preschooler and this was such a shy child. Just, she would not come out of her little shell for anything. And we had her in class—we started in the fall, and by springtime that child was flower girl in a wedding, and the mommy said she just pranced down that aisle and nothing bothered her. And she said, "I have to thank you, because it's the dancing class that has done it." So it, you know…little things like that, ah, make it worthwhile. Wanda: Not a little thing, really. Eunice: Well, no. If you can bring a child out...yes, it's…it's a good feeling. You know that you've done something. Wanda: Have you dealt with, ah, children with physical problems that dancing has helped? Eunice: One of the reasons that I am in business right now is that, ah, when I first came back from New York, my mother got a call from a friend of hers saying that—ah, the lady's grandchild had been run over by a car and both her legs had been broken. Her doctor had taken her as far as he could, and now she needed some exercise—supervised exercise. And he recommended dancing. And would, this lady asked my mother if she would take this child. And Mommy said, "No.” She had hung up her dancing shoes for the last time. But she said, "Eunice is home and maybe she would do it." Well, when I came home I didn't want to teach. That was not—I didn't know what I was going to do, but I wasn't going to teach. So I thought it over and I thought, “Well, I'll take this child with the idea that, you know…if I decide I'm not going to do this, ahm, I will warn the grandmother ahead of time.” Well, that was perfectly Okay. So I took the child, and we began to see the improvement in her. And she was with me for quite a while, and then they moved away, and— Wanda: How did you start with her? What did you do to begin with? Eunice: Basic ballet exercises because the ballet will tone all muscles, and it makes them work, and…ah, with this youngster I had to be careful that she, ah…we didn't push the muscles too hard, because they were in a weakened state to begin. But, ah, she gave me back as much as I was giving her. And I found this reciprocation was apparently what I needed. The applause was not enough - performing, and I knew. I would sit in the dressing room...there had to be more to life than applause and backstage dressing rooms, and so forth. And, ah…so the more I got involved with the kids, the more satisfied I was. Wanda: And from that one student you started taking others? Eunice: Uh huh. And I started that child right here in the living room right in front of the fireplace. We used a dining room chair as a bar, you know, for support for her. And, ah, then the following year, ahm, I sub-leased space in the Masonic Temple from another teacher, and the year after that I was on my own. Still in the Masonic Temple, and I'm still there. Wanda: Oh, still there? Eunice: Yep. We did twenty-ninth year this year. In March I was teaching twenty-nine years. Wanda: How many recitals is that? Eunice: About twenty-eight. Wanda: Yeah? Eunice: Mm-hm. And I have no idea the number of children I've handled, you know, in that length of time. Ahm…I would say probably close to 3,000. That doesn't seem possible! (laughter). But I'm getting, now, some children of—of students of my own, you know, that I had when they were young. It, ahm— Wanda: Amazing. Eunice: Yes, it it's very amazing to me because I don't feel that much older. You know, how can  these girls have babies of their own that they're bringing to me? [laughter] Wanda: Well, it's been good for you physically, too - this sort of work, hasn't it? Keeps you young. Eunice: I've been very happy in the business. Yes. I think anybody dealing with children...stays young. And of course the dance business is an active profession. I'm not one that can sit in a chair and teach. I'm up working with the kids and—ahm, so that does keep me physically active and I hope physically young. Wanda: When do you start with them, what ages? Eunice: I don't take them before they're three and a half. There are, there are teachers that will take them younger than that, but I feel that's glorified babysitting. Wanda: Oh. Eunice: I want them to have an attention span where I can work with them. Ahm—they are not going to be ballerinas or tap dancers—well, I don't put them in tap classes 'til they're five—but they aren't going to be little ballerinas, ahm, by the time they're four and a half. But they will at least know what it is to take a—a dance lesson, and they know that, ahm, we work for a while and we also play, but we work first and then we play. And it's, it's very nice to see these children, ahm, learn the patterns that are expected of them. And I find even with the older ones that...maybe some of the problem in today's society is that kids are not given enough responsibility. When we did recital last weekend, I had no adults backstage at all. And I never have had to have. I ask my teenagers if they will take over a group of younger children and be responsible for them so they are where they're supposed to be. And when the teenagers dance, then the little ones have to stay and watch and—ah, no hitches at all, and I have never had any problems. The older ones assume the responsibility and they know I expect it of them and, ahm…they don't let me down. So I—ahm—I wonder if, if maybe we're doing too much for our kids, rather than… Wanda: I agree. Eunice: …rather than, you know, making them, ahm, letting them grow up and do the things that they ought to do as young people, if we are not trying to do too much for them ourselves. Wanda: And accept the responsibilities as they grow into it. Eunice: Mm-hm. Wanda: Then—ah, have you had—ah, some special students that you'd like to talk about—that made a career of it or anything like that? Eunice: No, ahm—one of my students—ah well, we had two of the girls…audition for, ah, one of the Roxy Theater lines. That was for one of the touring lines, and they both made it, and I was naturally very proud and the kids were pleased. So they were to go to New York for rehearsal and, ah, I think they worked for maybe three or four weeks. Ah—that's the way it was when I was working for them—and then they would go on tour. And the girls were there one week and one of them got homesick, and the other one wouldn't stay without her and so that was the end of that. (laughter). But none of my other kids have been really professionally inclined. My niece is a fine little dancer, but she has done it and completely enjoyed it, but doesn't want to follow it. She thought when she started in at Harpur last year, she might want to be a lawyer—ahm—she's not so sure she wants to do that now—ahm—she's, you know, just taking a liberal arts course, but it's—ah, there again, it's her life. She must do what she wants to with it that will satisfy her, not her mother or me or anybody else. Wanda: The dancing has been a good discipline along the way. Eunice: Very good...very good. Ahm—and she has a real flair for it. Ahm—it's—you know, I think she could do something with it if she decided she wanted to, but apparently that's not going to fill her life for her. She wants something different. And she has taught with me, you know, on a part-time basis, and she has a great way with the kids, so—um, if she ever decides, you know, that she wants to teach as a sideline for whatever profession she chooses, she can do that and, and still, you know, enjoy her dancing. But she continued this, this year even though she has been to college and, and I have no reason to think that she won't stick with it another year or two. So it's—ah, there's a lot of self-satisfaction that comes out of it as well as satisfying somebody else. It's, it's…I, I think it's, it's a two-way street. Wanda: Do you have any preference for, for teaching ballet or tap? What other types of dancing? Eunice: There is modern jazz, too. Twenty years ago I would have said yes, very definitely, that I had a choice—ahm—the tap was always my favorite, but if, now, if somebody said, "You may teach one or the other," I would feel that I had lost one arm or the other if I couldn't do, you know, everything. Ah—it becomes—each is a different expression and you're able to bring different things out of different people with different types of dance. Wanda: Modern music seems to fit in with the jazz type of dancing. Eunice: Yes. Now...the...young teenagers—they love the jazz, and, ahm—that—a ballet background helps in that. And a little bit of tap doesn't hurt either, but—ahm—the jazz is, is an expression for the young people. Wanda: More than an interpretive thing, isn't it? Eunice: Well—uhm—interpretive to a point. When you're doing modern jazz you're always interpreting somebody else's choreography. In my studio it's my choreography. Ahm—the way I would choreograph a routine. I do encourage the kids to, you know, to give to me what they're feeling with what I'm also giving to them, and—ah, it's very interesting—you get different styles coming out. But I—now there are other schools that there is one style and if you study there, you know, you must have—everybody looks alike…like they came out of a machine. And I, I, I feel that—ah, you know, the kids should be encouraged to express themselves, too. If I see something I don't like, I'll tell them. But I also, if I see something I do like, I tell them. Wanda: Do you teach—a precision routine in your classes? Eunice: Yes. That is...I have two precision lines. The junior line I call the Goundrey Girls and the senior line are the Eunettes. And—a—so that the younger kids are working to make a place for themselves in one of these two lines. So we always close the recital with the Eunettes. That has been forever and ever and ever, and it probably will be until they roll me out in a wheelchair. [laughter] Wanda: With a high kick, huh? Eunice: But it's—you know we all have our, our own thing that we do, and our studio crowd now expects the Eunettes to close the show and so we do. The thing that is difficult these days is to find music for a line routine. Now that sounds strange, but the disco beat is not a precision line beat, and it's very difficult. And this year we went back to—ah, a version of “In The Mood” for the Eunette number. Wanda: Is that a fact! Eunice: It was a new recording, but it was in the old style and it worked beautifully. In fact the Boston Pops recorded it and so we had a fine orchestra behind us...(laughter) by recording—yep. (Phone rings) Excuse me. Wanda: Um—could you tell us something about the connection with the Roxy road shows? Eunice: Yes. After I left Radio City Music Hall…ehm, I, you know…went back to school for a while and—um, I decided that I still had to make some money. I was also working at Wanamaker’s in New York and—ah, I—so I took the audition and—at the Roxy—and at the time they were hiring for dancers that they sent out on the road to do State and County Fair work. And so I—they were hiring, you know, like a hundred girls. There was no competition there, not really. And so I went out on the road the first year and during the summer and, ah, thoroughly enjoyed it. However, my family was not very happy at all. When I said I was going to work in the fairs all they could see was a 'girlie' show. And—I—my grandfather, who was very influential in my life, and when I told him, he just had a fit. And I said, "Grandpa, we will play Elmira," and we were playing in front of the grandstand, which would be an arena-type—today an arena-type show. And, ahm—the Roxyettes did five numbers in the show and then there were vaudeville acts in between. It, it was a very lovely stage show—outdoor presentation. So, ahm, I knew what I was doing, but my grandfather was far from convinced, I'll tell you. And when I came, got to Elmira, he was there waiting. (Laughter). I had made the agreement with him that he would see the show and see the set-up, and if he did not approve then I would leave, I would give my notice. Well he was there—we played Elmira for the week, and he was there the first day and he met the company manager and approved of him, which was one step, and he met everyone else and I think he was there three—or four times during that week, really checkin' this thing out for his grandchild. And—he was there to see us leave on our way to Ottawa then, which was our next stop, and he kissed me and he said, "You have a good time sweetness, you're, you're in good hands." So I got back in after, off that tour—we got back in on a Sunday, and on Monday the theater called and said, "We are doing one of the routines that you did on the road and we need a replacement. Will you please come in?" So I was there then, ahm, you know, for the rest of the time that I was in New York. So, you know, that was a case where they—ahm—apparently had had good reports on me, you know, so I walked right into that—into the theater line, there was no problem. And very much enjoyed it there, but it was there that I began to wonder, you know, is there something more to this life than applause and dressing rooms and what have you? Wanda: Was that four or five shows a day? Eunice: Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. And then you rehearsed the one you were going to do, you know, prior to that, in the morning and between shows. But I made some awfully good friends there and I'm, I'm so glad I had the opportunity for those things. And then when I did come home and started to teach, ahm, the Roxy called me back and wanted to know if I wouldn't work summers for them. So I really had the very best of the two lives that I was leading. During the summer I would do the professional work for the Roxy, and I would come back home and open the school in October and work through until June and go into New York and do the same thing over again. And I did that for about seven years. So I finally decided, you know, you must make your choice—one way or the other—and the teaching meant more to me than the performing. And of course when, these days when you're teaching you can still perform with the kids. And so I, I've ended up doing exactly what I wanted to do. I'm so glad somebody didn't say to me, "You must work in an office the rest of your life." (Laughter). Maybe there are a lot of people who wouldn't want to teach dancing, but— Wanda: Well, how about the costumes? Um—I happen to know that you're a pretty good girl with a sewing machine. Ah—have you always been involved in making and designing the costumes for these recitals? Eunice: Yes. When I first started to teach we had to make all the costumes and—ah, the years have gone by, so costume business has become very commercial, and by sending measurements to various companies we are now able to buy most of the costumes at a fairly reasonable price. By the time you would figure materials and labor and, you know, having to have someone make them, ahm...at least when you order them they come...they're all alike. There are very few alterations have to be done on them. They are done with elastic backs or elastic sides, you know, for the heavier child and the slimmer child—to compensate. Ahm, and from the standpoint that I am doing the direction o the show, then I choose the costumes to go with what I feel, you know, is needed. Ah—the parents all pay for the costumes and then the youngsters have them. Ah—there are always a few that I make each year. Ahm, I think I did eight or nine of them this year that—ah, well I wanted a certain thing and I didn't find it, and in one case I had three little boys in, in a tap class, and they were going to be cowboys. And the girls’ costumes that I had found were white and they were trimmed in blue and white gingham. And they were to wear the little white western hats and, you know, have a few blue spangles. So I asked the mommies of the boys to find some gingham shirt. And they scoured this town. And one of the mommies said, "The only thing we have found is a size 8 for twelve dollars." And I said, "No way." So I made them. And we came out much better financially—ahm—and I had exactly what I wanted them to have and—ah, you know, but it, it's a rare case like that, these days, that you can't really find what you're after. Ahm—but there are so many costume houses now that there's usually a pretty good variety, and I purposely don't order from one house because then it gets to be all the same style. But, ah, costuming is a lot easier now than it was twenty years ago. Wanda: How fortunate! You'd have to have an attic overflowing. Eunice: Yes. Ohhhh. I do have one set of Santa Claus outfits that I made for my Eunettes, and—ah, that was to be an extra number at one time, so I, I made the big coats, and the girls wear red tights, you know, because for a dancing girl you have to be able to see their legs, so—ah, the Santa Claus jackets and caps I kept myself. And at Christmas time when we go around to the nursing homes and so forth, then I bring these out and whoever happens to be in the line at the time wears them—there's no real fit to them—and, ah, that makes a very nice closing to our Christmas program, see. But—ah—yes, there are many things in my attic! [both laugh] Wanda: Well, and a lot of memories in your head, too, and I thank you very much— Eunice: I've enjoyed this. Wanda: —for telling us about it. Eunice: It's fun to reminisce! Wanda: It certainly is. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eunice Goundrey Subject The topic of the resource Goundrey, Eunice -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Rockettes (Dance company); Dancers -- Interviews; Radio City Music Hall (New York, N.Y.); Ballet Arts (New York, N.Y.); Roxyettes (Dance company); Dance teachers Description An account of the resource Eunice Goundrey talks about her family's past and her mother's encouragement of her dance career from her childhood through her training at Ballet Arts School (New York, N.Y.) and the Roy and Jane Dodge school and her career as a Rockette at Radio City Music Hall. She discusses the impact of being a Rockette and later touring with the Roxyettes, a travelling dance group. She discusses her years teaching dance to children, methods of teaching, dancing as therapy, and highlights specific people and students that affected her in particular. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 29 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Goundrey, Eunice ; Wood, Wanda Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-06-22 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 42:08 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4f4d3c26a75d5d6b7911195034803c16.mp3 5fb0d0acb87fcf5b55069604eaf4d676 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56948">Interview with Eunice L. Davidson</a> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:58 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Subject LCSH Teachers -- Interviews; Davidson, Eunice L.-- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cheese factories; Syracuse University; Mathematics; Washington (D.C.); United States Army Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Eunice L. Davidson Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of interview: 11 October 1978 Susan: Miss Davidson, could we start this interview by having you tell us something about where you were born and, ah, anything that you'd care to tell us about your parents? Eunice: Well, I was born up in Chenango County, in Tyner, NY. My father had come from—his folks had come, rather, from Saratoga and lived up there, and he owned a cheese factory there. My mother had come from down in Pennsylvania, and they married and then, ah—this cheese factory he had bought really was one of the very first, ah, cheese factories in this side of, ah, the—ah, the ah, Hudson River, and it really was historic. And it was called the Deer Spring Factory because there was a very cold spring there that, ah—and it was deep and they kept it—at that time they kept their milk down in cans, and the cheese in the spring, which they didn't have the modern equipment, but it was the way they kept it in those days to keep it from souring and to keep it just right. Then, ah, when I was four years old my mother died and we—my brother and my sister and I were left with my father. My brother stayed with my father while my sister went with another aunt over at, in—in the town of Smithville, and I was adopted by a man in Greene, NY. We lived in Greene. I start—my sister came down and lived with us, and we lived there and started in school. When I was in the eighth grade we moved to Binghamton and, ah, at about six months after we moved to Binghamton, we moved down here on Tremont Ave. and my mother and my sister or I—I have lived here ever since. Now, I didn't always live here, because I've been away to school and work. When we moved here, there was, this part of the city was, well, it had been farmland, and the barns from the farms were still here. There were one over here next door to us and there was one across the street, and the one that had the barn over there across the street had horses, and I can remember his bringing—if we wanted anything brought, we didn't have taxis, but he would bring it to us with that horse and carriage or horse and wagon, and of course there weren't so many buildings. I can remember when they tore the old barn down and then built up around here. They built the apartment houses over at #1 Tremont and, ah, then, ah, next door they tore the barn down, but they didn't rebuild in there but there was quite a little land with that building, a little farmhouse, and they had divided it up, built an apartment house at #7, and they built another house above that and, ah, we of course went to school here, it was, of course our schools were different than they are today. We didn’t have to have flat (one story) without walking upstairs. When I first came here, I went over on Washington Street to the eighth grade. I was in the eighth grade when I came down here and, ah, had classes over there. Then the next year, when I finished the eighth grade, they were starting to build the new high school—the Binghamton Central High, which is there now, and then of course we went to school over here at, ah, it's where the Abraham Lincoln School is. It was the old New Street School, and we had our classes half a day. The New Street School children came half a day and, ah, we went there two years in that school before the high school was rebuilt. Susan: When you went away to school, Miss Davidson, where did you go? Eunice: I went to Syracuse University and put in four years there. A little incident that tells of how the times have changed, maybe, is, once—I was, of course we traveled back and forth on the train, and not by bus or cars as they do now, and we were stuck in the snow one day when I was coming down, up at, ah, just a little above Cortland, and there was a snow belt through there, and the train was stopped and we were there hours before we came through. Susan: What did you study in Syracuse? Eunice: Well, I studied Liberal Arts—I studied, Mathematics was my major and Latin was my minor. Then, ah, after that, of course, I taught for a while. Susan: Which schools did you teach in? Eunice: Well, I taught up at, ah, Crown Point, NY, and I don't want to go into all—and over here, a year in Central High. Susan: Oh, at Central. Eunice: I decided then to get out of teaching and do something else, so finally after several years in which I did different things, I went to Washington, D.C. to work for the government. I worked in the Army Finance and we—which was very interesting, interesting in Washington, but of course we, ah, didn't—it wasn't the same Washington that it is today, but let me go back in when—I was in school, our education, I think we had a wonderful education, because they taught us how to find things, how to change. We weren't taught just one thing, how to do it. We were taught that learning was living, and we should really find out and think how to change, and of course mathematics is great for that because you can't solve your problems unless you think of all the angles, and that helps you in living today. Susan: Miss Davidson, would you like to go back and tell us what life was like, ah, when you were living out in the country? Eunice: Well, when we were in Greene we had some wonderful neighbors. They did things for us. I remember in, ah, my first Christmas tree—one of the neighbors brought it and left it at our back door, and Mother, that was my adopted mother, was left alone. She had my sister and I there and she was trying to bring us up, and the neighbors really helped to do it, and when there was snow the boy over in the, ah—neighbor—one of the neighbors’ boys came over and shoveled out, I can remember shoveling out all around the house one day because he didn't know which door we wanted to go into when we came home, and another thing that was different in those days, I think the whole town knew who people were. They respected them and they helped one another. The churches worked harder. They were interested in the people and we had, ah, parties. I can remember a sleigh ride, going from Greene down to Chenango Forks for a sleigh ride. It was three sleighs, of course they were small churches. Once we went to another church and had a party down there and then came back, and it was things like that—that made life really interesting. One day we took some popcorn, went over to a neighbor’s and we had popcorn—ate it, and I think neighbors helping one another really helps. It makes life so much different than it is of today. Now we don't know our neighbors, they come and go, especially in the apartment houses around here, they change so often that we don't know them, and we have had some trouble with children. Well, one day we had a—they would pull up the—our posts that we have to help us come up the railings out there, and they keep pulling them up ’til one of the neighbors said, "Well, we needed that to come in.” And the children left it alone. I think that they don't realize what they're doing. It is the neighbors and knowing people, and then too, we didn't have to be educated to one thing. I think it all helped in growing up and well—then, of course, things were different, we—we had to do more things for ourselves. We didn't use taxis. I can't remember when we first, ah, used the taxi, of course when we came to Binghamton there was a trolley car that went. I can remember its going up to Ross Park, and we used to ride up there, although as a child I think we walked up there and we took hikes and beyond. We enjoyed that. The neighbors, not—there was a neighbor girl in school with me right next door, and we would, really enjoyed life in those days. Is that what you want to know? Susan: Well, that's fine. Are you sure there isn't anything more that you'd care to add? Eunice: Well, probably there is a lot of things. There were so many things that happened that were interesting, but of course it came out in the Sunday paper about—that about the fires over town that weekend, remember those fires? Susan: Yes, the Overall Factory. Eunice: Yes, yes, we remember that when it happened. Susan: Were you there? Eunice: We were overtown, Mother and I—were overtown, but ah, we didn't go to it or anything. We could just see the smoke and all from that. Susan: Thank you very much, Miss Davidson. Eunice: You’re welcome. Susan: It's been nice talking with you. Eunice: I hope it helps. There's so much that could probably have been said, but I just cannot think of it today. Susan: Well, thanks again. Date of Interview 1978-10-11 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Davidson, Eunice L. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eunice L. Davidson Description An account of the resource Eunice Davidson speaks of her father's cheese factory, the first one west of the Hudson, called the Deer Spring Factory. She discusses her experience growing up on Tremont Avenue in the city of Binghamton, watching it grow from farmland into an urban community. She studied math and Latin at Syracuse University and became a teacher, before moving to Washington, D.C. to work for the Department of Finance for the Army. She shares her experience watching farmlands change into more urban areas where she lived. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-10-11 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 74 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Davidson, Eunice L. ; Dobandi, Susan Subject The topic of the resource Teachers -- Interviews; Davidson, Eunice L.-- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cheese factories; Syracuse University; Mathematics; Washington (D.C.); United States Army Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Extent The size or duration of the resource. 24:58 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0f2f717588a27b8de477567116398046.mp3 e70149249db6fe61300777d462564aab https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/479dab3c16426a44282d18dd17d3af4f.mp3 ccbc935f875e9dcb33bd2613988ee3fd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Isenburg, Florence Parsons Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wood, Wanda Date of Interview 1978-01-12 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 49:06 Minutes ; 10:58 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55947">Interview with Florence Parsons Isenburg</a> Subject LCSH Isenburg, Florence Parsons -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Farms; Teachers -- Interviews; Cortland (N.Y.) Normal School Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Florence Parsons Isenburg Interviewed by: Wanda Wood Date of interview: 12 January 1978 Wanda: This is Wanda Wood: interviewer. And our respondent is Mrs. Florence Isenburg of 1216 Poppy Avenue, Warrington, Florida. The date is 12 January, 1978. Florence: I have been asked to record some of my memories of my early life. I was born May 14, 1889, so I will soon be 89 years old. Marge [Florence’s daughter]: Go. Florence: —to a farm family living at Chenango Bridge near the Chenango River. Our family consisted of my father and mother Herbert and Emma Parsons and one sister. The house we lived in is still standing and occupied, but is very old as it was owned by my grandparents and perhaps built or partly built by my grandfather, as he was a carpenter. My father loved the farm, which he purchased from his mother when he married. He raised vegetables, including potatoes, sweet corn, tomatoes, onions, beans, melons, berries and had many fruit trees.This produce he carried to market with a team of horses and wagon to sell to the grocery stores, hotels and hucksters or street peddlers. On the farm we also raised pigs, cows, chickens and had two horses to do the farm work. With all of these vegetables and animals we had plenty of good, nourishing food. We had a grocery store but were not able to buy any baked goods or fresh fruits or vegetables, so we practically lived off the farm. Mother made butter from the cows’ milk. After straining it in the milk cans, it was set in the cellar until the cream came to the top, when it was skimmed off into a large pail. After a few days it was poured into a wooden churn with a dasher by plunging the dasher up and down for a few minutes until the butter was separated from the sour milk, which was then called buttermilk. The butter was taken out in a wooden butter bowl, washed, salted and packed in jars. Most of it was sold, but we used all we needed. Mother worked very hard as she had no household appliances, no running water, no electricity. She made all of our clothes, washed using a rubbing board after heating the water on the stove. We had a refrigerator cooled by large blocks of ice which was stored in an ice house after being cut on the river in the winter and stored for summer use. The refrigerator didn't keep the food very cold, so most of it was carried to the cellar. But one advantage of having the ice was that we had homemade ice cream, which was delicious. It was a good life. We did not miss the things we had never had. Everyone did his share of the work. Summers were very busy, but in winter we had time to sit around the fire, or visit with a neighbor, occasionally. Of course usually when we went to the neighbor's home in the evening they popped corn and brought big red apples from the cellar for our refreshments. Mother canned and pickled hundreds of jars of fruits and vegetables which were stored in the cellar for winter. Dad butchered a hog, making sausage and ham for our own use. There was always a ham for Sunday dinner or for company. People now are complaining about their utility bills which are high—are high. We had no utility bills as we had no electricity, no gas, no telephone, no garbage collection, no running water, no mail delivery. And yet, we did not feel depressed or poor. The church was the center of social life. We looked forward to Sunday when we could wear our one best dress and see all our friends. Occasionally there was a church supper when everyone took a covered dish and enjoyed a meal with friends. There were also simple church socials in the summertime. The principal event of summer was the Sunday School picnic, which was held at either Ross Park in Binghamton or at Lily Lake. At the park were animals in cages and a merry-go-round. At the lake were boats and we could go bathing but the water was so cold so the children all preferred to·the park—to go to the park. A bountiful dinner was supplied by all who attended. The one-room rural school which I attended from ages 6-14 was on a lot adjoining our farm. My sister and I had only to walk across the garden to get to school. That had advantages and disadvantages. It was very easy to get there even in winter when the snow was deep, but in good weather Mother insisted that we come home for lunch, which in our house was called dinner, the main meal of the day. That took too much of our noon hour when we wanted to play with the other children. There were usually 15-25 pupils of all ages and grades from 1-8 with one teacher. This teacher was also the janitor, sweeping the floor, hanging the flag, getting the pail of water, building the fire unless she engaged one of the boys to do it. She received about $8.00 per week and usually boarded with one of the families. In earlier days the teachers boarded around, that is, stayed a week in a place with some of the parents where they paid no board. Then when they paid board it was $2.50 per week. We sometimes boarded—we sometimes boarded a teacher. There were two doors at school—they were two doors—two doors from a hall—one for the boys, one for the girls. In the center of the room was a large pot-bellied stove, which burned wood in summer and coal in winter. There were four rows of double seats in graduated sizes. The teacher's desk faced these with a large recitation bench between. As the class recited they left their seats and sat on the recitation bench. While one class recited the others were supposed to be preparing their own lessons. With so many classes they were necessarily short and pupils had to do much of the work for themselves without the teacher's help. That had some advantages. Teachers were allowed to punish the disobedient ones—and usually did so to keep order. I well remember several of my teachers and know I had a feeling of fear and admiration for them. They believed in the adage “spare the rod and spoil the child,” so they didn't spoil the child. It would seem that under these conditions education would have been poor, but we were obliged to memorize tables, to memorize spelling, to study maps and to learn many facts from our reading which are not required today. [Parents] were obliged to furnish the children's books, pencils, and papers. Some slate pencils were used to save paper. Every year the teacher was allowed to borrow 25 books from the state library for use during the year. It was an exciting day when the books arrived to see what we were getting to read. There was a bookcase in our room but very few books. Our blackboards were boards painted with black paint which soon wore off. After a time, one progressive trustee had some real blackboards installed. In the rear of the building—on either side—was a small outhouse or privy, as they were called. One for the girls, one for the boys, with a very high board fence between. In the hall, on a high shelf, was a water pail and dipper from which everyone drank—no fear of germs in those days! I credit my 8th grade teacher in preparing me to take the Regents Exams which must be passed in order to enter High School. They came from the State and were uniform, used in all schools. I had to go to Chenango Forks on the train to take them, and as I had never been to a strange school, I was frightened. There were exams in all subjects which took two days, but I passed them all due to my very good teaching. Now I had finished our rural school and there was no high school nearby—what was I to do? The high school in Binghamton was the nearest, but we had no way of getting back and forth. We found that there was a train service going north to Whitney Point 15 miles away, so my parents decided to send me there. The train returning at 4 P.M. was a freight train with a small coach for passengers in the rear. It was slow, but it allowed us to do our homework. The D.L. & W. Railroad issued special monthly tickets to students. I well remember my first day at high school in Whitney Point. The building looked very large to me. The lower grades were on the first floor and high school on the second floor. I climbed the stairs and straight ahead of me was the large auditorium where pupils were sitting. Mother had made me a new dark blue dress and I had a dark blue hat. Everyone wore hats in those days. I did not notice the cloakroom at the left, so walked right into the room with my hat on my head. I was so embarrassed as the others laughed, so I have never forgotten about it. High school in those days did not provide so many subjects as they do today. There were no easy subjects like Shop, Bowling, Homemaking, etc. Everyone must take Math, English, History and a foreign language or two—later Geometry, Physics, Science, etc. I remember we had a small laboratory where we dissected several small animals. I did not enjoy that. On finishing a course we were obliged to pass a Regents Examination sent by the State, and after completing a certain number of subjects we were graduated. I was then 18 years old in 1907. Someone asked me recently why I became a school teacher. I really had not thought about it before. I believe there were several factors which brought it about. My grandmother Parsons had nine children, and sometime during their life, eight of them taught school. I also had several cousins who taught. As I have said our home was the old farmhouse where the nine Parsons children were brought up. In the upper hall and attic were shelves of books they had used and left. I used to enjoy looking at them and reading them. I think these things influenced me to become a teacher, besides I always have loved school. There were several Normal schools in New York State. They are now 4 year colleges. Cortland was the nearest to us and I had some cousins living there.Today it is an easy drive on a good road of about 40 miles. In 1907 it was a long journey on a train. My parents bought me a trunk, which I still have to pack my clothes, as I didn't expect to come home often. I got a room near the college building and took my meals at a home nearby with about 20 other girls. Our studies consisted in methods of teaching, psychology, and review of all other grade subjects. Later we had observed model teaching using students from the grades who attended school here. During one last term we did the teaching under supervision of the Normal teachers. This was the most difficult, as we knew we were being criticized. I joined the sorority Clionian. We had a meeting room in the building and had many good times, however I was very homesick much of the time I was here. Nowadays a student could drive home every week if they desired. My first teaching experience was in a small rural school similar to, in many ways, to the one I had attended as a child. It was on Upper Front Street, then called Christian Street. I had 12 or 15 pupils in several grades and received $10 per week and did the janitor work. As it was about 2 ½ miles from home, I often drove a horse and buggy in summer or a horse and sleigh in winter. If Dad needed the horse I walked. Sometimes the snow was about to my knees, so I arrived very wet and had to build a fire in the pot-bellied stove before I could get dry. As the children arrived they were also cold and wet, so they sat or stood around the stove much of the forenoon. I can still smell the wet mittens and scarves as they were drying. We opened the school in the morning by a Bible reading and repeating the Lord’s Prayer. Books were hard to come by, but many times some second-hand ones were to be found by an older child who had used them. By using the blackboard it was possible to start work in Arithmetic and Spelling, supplemented by books I had selected. Most parents were willing to provide supplies for their children. The teaching was largely individual as the children were all at different levels of learning. A few subjects could be taught to the whole group at one time, such as Writing, Health and Physiology. I do not remember having any problems with the children as to discipline. In those days children respected their teachers and looked up to them. What the teacher said was right. How different it is today! At noon we used to go out and ride downhill—there was a hill nearby—and then in the evening, after school was out, we used to go skating. That was great fun. Most of my 20 years of teaching was done in my home district where I had attended school. For several years I taught in the same small one-room building until the population grew—until there were about 40 pupils, just too many for one teacher. A new building was erected and two teachers hired. The salary had greatly advanced from $10.00 per week to $40.00. I taught grades 5 to 8 in the new school. It seemed that this would be sufficient for many years, but in a short time the town had grown so that a larger school was necessary and also a high school. I will tell you a little more about our neighborhood. We had a few near neighbors whom we saw often in the evening, or if anyone was sick. We seldom called a doctor, but neighbors came to help and always brought food. There was a doctor who made house calls, so in that way we were more fortunate than people are today. Midwives delivered the babies, doctors were not needed. My grandmother delivered dozens of them.The threshers came once a year to thresh the grain and we always had husking bees in the evening which were lots of fun. Mother always had a big dinner for the husk—or for the threshers. At the end of the bridge—farther end of the bridge on the right was a blacksmith shop where Dad took the horses to be shod. I used to go along and watch. On the left was the tollhouse where the man lived who collected the toll from the Chenango Canal, which ran along close to the river. I do not remember when the canal was being used but in winter it froze and made a wonderful skating pond. Hiram Johnson had a small grocery store near the depot and railroad. Near the door on the left were about 30 boxes for mail. That was our post office. He also sold stamps. We had no daily paper, but a weekly Binghamton Republican came once a week. Dad liked to go to the store in the evening to sit around the stove and hear the news. His excuse was to go for the mail. Nearly every home had a hitching post and horse block in front at the roadside. Callers usually came with a horse and wagon, so the hitching post was necessary. The horse block was a large stone or else a lot of little stones piled up. It was necessary because the wagons were much higher from the ground than our cars are today. Women wore long skirts so it was quite difficult to get into them. By standing on the horse block and taking a step that extended from the wagon, they could climb into the wagon seat. Our kitchen was the most important room of the house. It was a large room with a hard pine floor which Mother cleaned and oiled to keep it shiny. A black iron cook stove kept us warm and cooked and baked much delicious food. There was a reservoir attached to one side which we kept filled with—to provide the hot water. It was all the hot water we had except for the tea kettle, because we had no bathroom. A large extension table had many uses. We ate on it often, although Mother liked to set the table in the dining room. The table also provided a place for us to study, to read, and to sort beans in the winter. Dad raised shell-beans, but before he could sell them they had to be looked over to remove any poor ones and shells. The table was lighted by a kerosene lamp. Often in the evening we had to help Mother sew carpet rags. The only carpets we had were woven on looms—made of rags. They were woven in strips about one yard wide, and sewed. Aunt Celia had one room where she had a large loom. She wove carpets for us and for many other people. At the end of the room was a black iron sink and pump—which—the pump raised water from a cistern. Our drinking water came from a well and bucket in the backyard. Behind the stove was a shelf which held a row of kerosene lamps, which had to be cleaned and filled frequently. On the shelf was a very old clock with wooden works and two heavy iron weights. Father wound it every night as he went to bed. Bedrooms were very pleasant in summer but very cold in winter. Our house was heated by two stoves—cook stove in the kitchen and a parlor stove in the parlor. As we had no bathroom, bedrooms had a wash bowl and pitcher and a washstand which in the bottom had a little door which held the chamber pot. We had to be sure no water was left in the pitcher in winter as it would freeze. Some of the older beds were called cord beds—instead of springs, a heavy rope was woven across between the side rails to hold up the mattress. The mattress—the mattress was a pad and then ticking filled with corn husks or dried straw and on top of that a feather bed—filled—a bed filled with feathers. Sheets were not bought ready-made—as they are today. Some were made of muslin, often unbleached muslin which was a yard wide, so the sheet always had a seam down the middle. When they began to wear thin women turned the sheet sewing the outside edges together so that they would last longer. Other sheets were made of linen. Linen is made from flax—stems of the flax plant. This was another task that colonial women had to do. There was a small flax wheel and a larger spinning wheel which made the fibers into threads. The thread was then woven on a loom to make linen cloth. Sheets and pillow cases, tablecloths and napkins were made of the linen cloth. The sheets also had a seam down through the middle. I think sometimes the linen was used for fine underwear, such as for a bridal outfit. Sheet-blankets made out of cotton or wool were also used in winter with many bed quilts. Quilting bees were another social activity. When a quilt top was finished the neighbor women were invited in to help put it on the quilting frame and to quilt it with many fine stitches. There are many quilt patterns. Some of the most popular were Wedding Ring, Double Irish Chain, Dresden Plate, Necktie, and Log Cabin. A bedspread or coverlet called a counterpane was woven on a loom using white cotton warp and navy blue, or occasionally red wool for the woof. There were many beautiful patterns. They were reversible and often had the weaver's initials woven in the corner. They also were seamed through the center. People dressed differently in those days. I have already stated that women's skirts were long. They were also full, covering two petticoats. In winter everyone wore long underwear, that is the long legs and long sleeves of heavy knitted cotton. In summer the underwear still covered much of the body, but was of a lighter weight. Women wore corsets laced in the back and it was the style to lace them tight to have a small waistline. Over these was worn a corset cover, a garment without sleeves and low neck to cover the corset. Bras and shorts had not been invented. Some men working outside in the cold weather wore felt boots extending to the knees and over them a rubber arctic with buckles. My father wore rubber boots with sock slippers inside. Blue jeans did not have the popularity they have today. They were worn by farm laborers and those doing menial jobs. It was unheard of for a girl to wear pants of any kind. Children’s clothing was somewhat like their parents’. Girls’ dresses were well below the knees. I had one best dress for winter made of wool, and one summer best dress for Sunday. The winter dress just before—was made just before Christmas and the summer dress for Children's Day, which was celebrated with a program in our church on the second Sunday of June. Of course we had several other dresses for school but not too many. We were—we wore them until they were—we grew out of them or they were worn out. Bathing suits have made the greatest change of all. How shocked my mother would be to see a present day, bather! Ladies' bathing suits were bloomers to the knees, often with black stockings and sneakers below. The blouse often had a sailor collar. They were made of a material called brilliantine. Oh yes, we also wore a cap to cover our hair. Children wore an old dress and a pair of underpants. Men's shorts—men’s suits were knitted cotton which came to the knees and covered most of the body. We really went “bathing” instead of “swimming,” as it was difficult to swim with so many clothes. The first sewing machine we had was a Howe, propelled by a pedal, but much sewing was done by hand. Ladies would not think of making bed quilts on a machine. They were all sewed by hand and quilted. Only one home in our town had a bathroom. It was very different from today's bath—baths. The tub was zinc—in a wooden case like a coffin. The water to flush the tub—the toilet—was in a wooden box near the ceiling with a chain extending from it, which was pulled to release the water. Marge: I don't know what happened here, Wanda, but there's more, so just let it continue to play. Florence: In summer quite often we had the company of bees and in winter our stay was short because of the cold. Father's farm lantern made a cheery light if necessary to make an evening call. These were called backhouses or privies, and on Hallowe'en it often happened that the backhouse was overturned by celebrators. Speaking of baths—the rest of us who had no baths—bathrooms, used the wash bowl and pitcher in our bedroom in summer, but in winter we filled a washtub half full of water and bathed in front of the kitchen stove on Saturday night. Father planned an ambitious project to have running water in our house. Our farm extended on the north up a very steep hill where here was a natural spring of water. In order to pipe the water down a ditch had to be dug through a very stony hard soil. It also had to cross over a, quite a long—a big hill which we called the knoll. To avoid freezing, this ditch must be at least 4 or 5 feet deep. Today it would be done by machinery, but at that time it had to be dug with pick and shovel, and with lots of muscle and perseverance. A small lead pipe was placed in the ditch and although the pressure was weak—we at last had cold running water in our kitchen sink. It was several years after that before we had a bathroom. As population increased, telephone and mail service became necessary. A stock company was formed called the Chenango Valley Company, in which interested people bought stock and a line was constructed with a central office in the little village—at first in a private home. By calling through central we were able to talk to Binghamton. Eventually a rural mail delivery—R.F.D. #4—was inaugurated, but we still, even today, have a post office in Chenango Bridge. Electricity came later, when I was about 25 years old, as I remember giving up my kerosene lamps and having electric lights put in the house. We finally had radio. It was an Atwater-Kent, the first one we had. The program I remember best was Amos and Andy. Here is a little more about my school-teaching days. You may be sure with 15 or 25 pupils in about 5 or 6 grades, the teacher was very busy and classes had to be short—about 15 minutes each. About the time of World War II some department in education hierarchy decided that Physical Training should be taught in all the schools. In order to teach it, the teachers were obliged to take lessons. So we had several classes where we learned to give the commands for daily drills similar to those given to the soldiers. These we were obliged to do at least twice a day. This was required for several years and then discontinued. I am sure the children got all the exercise that they needed at recess and noon hours. Most of them had a long walk home—there were no school buses in those days. There have been many changes in schools since my school days of 80 years ago, not in just the buildings, but in the many other ways. There's no doubt that the present buildings are much finer, more convenient, conducive to the health and welfare of the children. Also there is no comparison in the cost of the two buildings, and in the cost of their upkeep. A teacher today may receive in one day what a teacher in an early rural school received in a month. But are the results in proportion to the cost? Are children today so much better educated? I grant that young people are now better informed than in early days, but I attribute that partly to the various ways that news is disseminated, such as radio, television, magazines, newspapers and not entirely to their formal education. Perhaps I'm not qualified to judge the education of today as I have not taught in nearly thirty years, but I have grandchildren who have gone through the grade schools, through high school and two have been to college, so I have had some contact with present day schools in Florida. I know schools differ from state to state, so perhaps what I say about our Florida schools may not apply in Broome County. However I think in a general way all states have their problems in education. There has been a universal complaint that high school students and even some college students cannot read as they should. Recently all students here about to graduate from high school, had to take a literacy test in order to receive a diploma. What is the cause or causes of this deficiency? It cannot be laid to the teachers entirely, as it is so widespread. I may be wrong, but I think I can see at least partly the causes. About twenty or twenty-five years ago the word method of teaching reading in the primary grades, was introduced. A child was taught word for word by repetition of that word in the stories he read. He was helpless to learn new words until they appeared in his reading lessons. Formerly, children were taught phonics, learning the sounds of the letters so that when he encountered a new word, he had the ability to sound it out and pronounce it. The textbooks used were written to teach the word method, so unless the teacher taught it on her own, they did not learn phonics. Many teachers did use the sound method, and that—pupils became better readers. I saw examples of this in my own grandchildren. At last the phonics method is being taught in many schools, so hopefully there will be an improvement in the reading ability of pupils. As I see it, another cause of poor readers is the fact that with the popularity of TV children do not read for themselves. Many children haven't read such classics as Black Beauty, Gulliver’s Travels, Prince and the Pauper, Alice in Wonderland and so forth. It is easier to watch a TV program than to exert oneself to read a book. TV has its place and children learn much from it if they watch the right programs, but not for several hours every day to the exclusion of exercise and reading. I discussed the school situation with one of the teachers. She informed me that one of the problems was the lack of interest of the parents. Parents, in many cases, consider that they have no obligation to see that the children are doing well in school or doing their homework or if they have—that they do not have any duty to help the teacher. Instead of taking an interest in the homework, they prefer to watch television. Many children need the encouragement of the parents to do their best work. As a teacher is not allowed to use any physical means of discipline, and pupils know this, the discipline becomes a problem. In olden days we were allowed and expected to give a child a sharp slap with our hand or ruler, if they deserved it. Now a teacher could be sued or brought to court if she did such a thing. Consequently, like the doctor, she needs to carry insurance to protect herself. And very often a child reports an injury was—caused by the teacher when she had no part in it. One example: a boy was angry with his teacher for correcting him. He had some scratches on his arm, which he told his mother was done by the teacher. After a conference by those involved in the principal's office, the boy finally confessed that the cat had scratched him. In olden days many parents told their children, “If you get a whipping at school, you’ll get another at home.” That was going too far the other way, but it was a help to the teacher. Some teachers sent their children out in the backyard  to get a switch off from a bush out there to bring in to whip themselves. They tried real hard to find a real small switch. The subject of English also includes grammar. Most teachers require the reading of books and the writing of book reports, but some neglect the teaching of grammar, which I consider very important. How can a person use good English if they do not know the parts of speech, and the declensions, parsing and diagramming of sentences? This may not be true of all high schools, but ours here have had what I consider too many fancy specialized courses, which take time that should be devoted to something more important. Under the name of Physical Education they take pupils on school buses to bowling alleys, golf courses, roller-skate rinks, swimming pools for exercise. So much time is consumed in going and returning that very little time is left for the activity. Also parents are required to pay for their children's use of the equipment. If a child does not have the money for these things, he gets a failing mark on Physical Ed. Homemaking and Woodworking are two other easy courses which are good in their place, if they do not detract from the basic academic subjects. Girls are required to take the Homemaking, but boys are not. A few years ago a subject called New Math, complete with new textbooks, was introduced in the schools. I have examined the books and have talked with interested people about the subject, but I am not able to intelligently criticize it. I think I understand the underlying principle. It is to give pupils the real meaning of a number. Five is not just a symbol, but means five articles, and “five times five equals twenty-five” is not just an equation, but means five groups with five articles in each group. In other words, to understand what numbers stand for, some of the methods to prove it are time-consuming. So after demonstrating the real meaning of a number, I think tables should be memorized. Ah—now some teachers are combining the old methods with the new. I understand that the New Math carries over into Algebra and Geometry and perhaps makes the three subjects— I well remember the first automobile I saw. One of the progressive farmers, Eugene Chamberlain, bought it. It looked much like a farm wagon on wheels. It was very high up—it even had a whip-socket. The wheels were hard—no rubber tires—and it traveled rather slowly. My sister and I ran along beside it and had no trouble keeping up with it. It was several years before my father felt that he could afford a car, which was then a Ford. As he has always driven horses, so when he tried to drive the car, he was looking both sides of him to see what was going on along the roadside and when he wanted to stop he said, “Whoa, whoa back," just as if he was talking to the horses. Marge: And then he went in the river! [laughter]. All right, go ahead. Florence: Only one home in our town had a bathroom. It was very different from today's bath. The tub was zinc in a case like a coffin. Water to flush the toilet was in a wooden box near the ceiling with a chain extending from it, which was pulled to release the water. The lavatory was of real marble. The rest of us had to visit a little building at the rear of our houses. These contained three holes, one smaller than the others for small children. Instead of toilet paper, which had not been made yet, we used Sears-Roebuck catalogs. That made a trip interesting, as there was always something to look at in the catalog. In summer quite often we had the company of bees and in winter our stay was short because of the cold. Father’s farm lantern made a cheery light if necessary to make an evening call. These little buildings were called backhouses or privies. Now on Hallowe’en it often happened that the backhouse was overturned by celebrators. Husking bees was another chance for neighbors to get together for a social evening. Corn had to be husked so it could be fed to the chickens. On a warm evening young and old gathered at one of the neighbors' barns, and as they visited and told stories they husked the corn. If a man found a red ear he could kiss any girl he pleased. Usually the hostess served some refreshments, perhaps homemade doughnuts and cider. As I said before the husks were dried and used to fill the bed-ticks. After the corn was husked, it had to be shelled and the corn cobs made wonderful kindling to start the fires in the kitchen stoves. So nothing was wasted. Bands of gypsies traveled around the country in summer and I remember once when they came to our town. In those days they had covered wagons, gaily colored and drawn by fine-looking horses. Now they travel with cars. They stopped and set up camp on a river flat where there were no houses nearby, but the neighbors were alarmed, fearing what they might do. So the man who owned the property was asked to have them moved on. They unharnessed the horses, started a fire to cook a meal, and several women in gay dresses, lots of beads and long braids, with very dark skins, ah—came knocking at doors asking to tell our fortunes. If they did not move that—as they did not move that night, everyone locked doors and shut up the chicken coops, as they had a reputation of stealing anything they could find. They left the next day. Gypsies originally wandered around—were wandering tribes in Europe, but now they have come to this country and there are quite a few tribes of them around. Dad had a sleigh with a long box. Once he took our school for a sleigh ride. We had a string of bells on the horses. He covered the floor with a—of the sleigh with straw to sit on. Some of the boys got out and threw snowballs at the ones in the sleigh. Riding downhill on our sleds was great fun, and also skating. Skates in those days were fastened on by straps around the toes and ankles. They did not stay on very well. Later we had skates fastened to our shoe—our shoe soles, but most people couldn't afford them. Skating was my favorite sport. When the young couples had sleigh—sleigh rides they usually went to a hall for an oyster stew supper and then square-danced and played such games—kissing games. Those days are gone forever, for even if there were any horses and sleighs, the snowplows have cleared the roads of snow. Of all the seasons, perhaps winter was the one most enjoyed by the young people. The first snowflakes were hailed with delight. It meant sliding downhill, skating on the ponds, sleigh rides, parties, and best of all—Christmas. Preparations for Christmas were made well in advance as there was little money to spend and even if people were able to go to the stores there was not much—so much—in—ah—many inviting things to buy as there are today. At school, with the teacher's help and suggestions, pupils made gifts for their parents such as pot-holders, needle books, pen-wipers and so forth. Also soon after December first the school began preparation for a Christmas program to be given on the Friday before Christmas when school was out for vacation. First they began practicing Christmas carols and songs of which “Jingle Bells” was perhaps the favorite. The teacher was busy hunting up Christmas poems and plays as every one must have a part, either to speak a piece or sing. Then for busy work on cold stormy days, colored paper was cut in strips and pasted together to make paper chains for decorations. Stars were pasted on the windows and snow scenes were drawn on the blackboards. On the last day of school, everyone cleaned his desk to be ready for the guests to arrive. The mothers came to hear the program. Small gifts, mostly from the ten-cent store, were exchanged. Teachers received handkerchiefs, writing paper and pretty—maybe a pretty dish or some homemade article or candy. She gave each child a gift—perhaps something they could use in school, like a box of colored crayons or a pad. Everyone went home happy and the teacher was relieved that it was over. Christmas is celebrated today in the schools, but in a very different way. One thing is— [TAPE 2] Marge: On. The main thing that's lacking—in the schools. Florence: The meaning of Christmas or any religious reference, is forbidden by law. If children do not go to Sunday School, many of them never know what Christmas is all about. Our town had one church, the Methodist, and there was always a Christmas tree and program—some evening just before Christmas. The Sunday School teachers were responsible for preparing the program, so the children were assigned parts and met after school and on Saturday to practice. Parents brought presents for their children so that, so when Santa arrived he could call each child's name. The tree had no electric lights, but was decorated with the packages which the parents had brought and strings of popcorn and cranberries. Santa always presented each child with a bag containing an orange and some ribbon candy. Oranges were quite a treat as we seldom had any in winter. The best part of Christmas was that spent at home or with our families. I was never taught to believe in Santa Claus, but my sister and I hung our stockings and always found something in them in the morning. Dad went up on our hill where there were many trees and brought us a lovely hemlock which we decorated with paper chains, popcorn and hung all small packages on the branches. Some people used candles, but Mother thought they were too dangerous. As we had two families of relatives, aunts and uncles and children living nearby, we all got together at one of the houses for a big Christmas dinner. After the dinner, gifts were distributed. Gifts in those days were different than today. They didn't cost so much and they were a surprise. Nowadays everyone tells what he or she wants and expects to get, even if it is too expensive. I liked the old gifts much better. One Christmas I received a Bible and on another a gold ring. Mother always made us doll clothes for our dolls, and they were beautifully made of scraps of material and lace left from her sewing. Marge: One thing that Mom didn't bother writing about that—or talk about the church is that—oh—the church was a very important part of our lives. Oh—you didn't just graduate from one department to the next just 'cause you got that age. Ah—my group, when I was comin' up through, we had to go to Viola Noye's and we had to learn the Beatitudes and the books of the Bible and a lot of other memory work and then we had to go during the eleven o'clock service and recite all this in order to get promoted to the next department. And a—I think this is something that children nowadays aren't expected to do in school or Sunday School and that is to do memory work. And that—is a real shame because it doesn't prepare their mind to remember things. Florence: When I was a child, a lady by the name of Ada Hall had all the young people come to the church, on Sunday afternoon, where she taught us many, many facts about the Bible and we memorized many things in the Bible. These things have always stood by me and been a great help to me in teaching Sunday School class, which I have done for many, many years. I have tried to recall how our life many years ago differed from our life today. It was a good life and had some advantages over life today. I shouldn't have repeated there. People tried to live within their means. They rarely bought things they did not have the money to pay for. There was not so much worry about debts as there is today. Installment buying was unheard of. Old people were cared for in their ho—children's homes. There were no nursing homes. Very poor people had to go to the poorhouse, which was supported by taxes. Neighbors were more neighborly. If anyone was sick they did not go to the hospital, but were cared for in the home. Doctors made house calls. There is no comparison in the cost of living today and that of eighty years ago, and although wages are much higher today, expenses have increased proportionately. Of course people today buy things that in olden days would not be considered, even if they were available. Luxuries have become necessities. I have criticized the schools and some phases of education, but school buildings of today are beautiful, teachers are well-educated, much money is spent on the educational system. Children are required to attend school. Much of the material used is furnished, so, on the whole, I think we can be proud of our school systems. One thing I didn't mention about schools was the writing. As far as I know most teachers do not have any formal penmanship classes. Some children write well, but many do not. Our teachers were obliged to take lessons with Palmer Method writing and have regular penmanship classes in school every day. Palmer Method involves using the muscles of the arm while holding the pen or pencil with the fingers, instead of using the fingers to guide the pencil. On my father's farm is a peat bog which I believe is the only one in Broome County. Peat represents the first stage in the development of coal, from vegetable matter under pressure. It consists of a brown substance, fibrous and woody, saturated with moisture and can be cut easily. My father cut it out in square blocks, dried them on a rack and ground them up. He then sold the peat for horse bedding. In those days there were many horses in Binghamton and peat moss made a desirable bedding material. Today people buy it as a mulch around shrubbery. Where the peat had been cut out, a little pond formed where we used to skate in the winter. Occasionally the peat area would accidentally get on fire. It burned with an acrid smoke that was very annoying to everybody living nearby. It burned very deep and we had no way of quenching the fire. Finally it burned itself out. Women's apparel has changed greatly. Just imagine a well-dressed woman walking to church on Sunday morning. She has on a hat or bonnet and shawl or cape for a wrap, a long dress, high-bottomed shoes and black cotton stockings. Her hands were covered with hand-knitted mittens or gloves. Little girls were a small edition of their mothers. Mother's hair was long and twisted in a knot on her head, while the child's was in braids down her back—no bobs or short hair in those days. There are many other things I could tell you about the good old days, but I think I've done pretty well to remember as much as I have, so I think we'll call this finished. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Florence Parsons Isenburg Subject The topic of the resource Isenburg, Florence Parsons -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Farms; Teachers -- Interviews; Cortland (N.Y.) Normal School Description An account of the resource Florence Parsons Isenburg talks about her family farm in Chenango Bridge, NY and the crops they raised, social activities, and her upbringing. She describes how things were done on the farm, including tasks and chores, methods of cleaning, cooking, and farming and what the neighborhood was like. She discusses how farming changed with the advents of installed water systems, bathrooms from outhouses, mail delivery, the first telephone, and electric service. She describes her education and notes that she attended the Cortland Normal School. She discusses her first teaching positions, how the local school system changed while she was there. She details how methods of teaching changed over the years, as well as, how lifestyle changed over time. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recordings 34A; Recording 34B Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isenburg, Florence Parsons ; Wood, Wanda Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-12 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 49:06 Minutes ; 10:58 Minutes