73 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/10127539f117cddd48c3c7fc723997d8.jpg c27d1415eedde73903372841a173ddcb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8bb660f97c8755d65a4b773e9c373dbb.mp3 fa9430b5330aec4c4bcdc90bae48533e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gaylord Nelson, 1916-2005 Date of Interview 1996-07-25 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 88:33 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Gaylord Nelson (1916-2005) was a politician and environmentalist who served as a United States Senator and Governor. He was the original founder of Earth Day, a leading consumer advocate, strong supporter of civil rights and civil liberties, and one of the earlier outspoken opponents of the Vietnam War. Nelson received his bachelor's degree in Political Science from San Jose State University and his LL.B. degree from the University of Wisconsin Law School in Madison."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Gaylord Nelson (1916-2005) was a politician and environmentalist who served as a United States Senator and Governor. He was the original founder of Earth Day, a leading consumer advocate, a strong supporter of civil rights and civil liberties, and one of the earlier outspoken opponents of the Vietnam War. Nelson received his bachelor's degree in Political Science from San Jose State University and his LL.B. degree from the University of Wisconsin Law School in Madison. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ken Burns; WWII generation; Environmental Movement; Liberals; Counterculture; Vietnam War; Generation X; Baby boom generation; Dysfunctional family; Earth Day; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Ken Burns; WWII generation; Environmental Movement; Liberals; Counterculture; Vietnam War; Generation X; Baby boom generation; Dysfunctional family; Earth Day; Activism. Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; Environmentalists; Nelson, Gaylord, 1916-2005--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gaylord Nelson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nelson, Gaylord, 1916-2005 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; Environmentalists; Nelson, Gaylord, 1916-2005--Interviews Description An account of the resource Gaylord Nelson (1916-2005) was a politician and environmentalist who served as a United States Senator and Governor. He was the original founder of Earth Day, a leading consumer advocate, a strong supporter of civil rights and civil liberties, and one of the earlier outspoken opponents of the Vietnam War. Nelson received his bachelor's degree in Political Science from San Jose State University and his LL.B. degree from the University of Wisconsin Law School in Madison. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-07-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.142a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.142b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 88:33 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d859f78e9f059ecc4edf71249c12d31.mp3 6d5957095abda2b5ea0e79f966775655 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b98660f9c3203b3aa53447be97f8f9af.png 8040c05abed95639500dcb8b9c6c64c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geoffrey H. Strauss Biographical Text At Harpur College, Geoffrey studied accounting. A summer job as a counselor with the college’s Upward Bound Program for disadvantaged youth decided him on a career in teaching. He taught accounting at Broome Community College and Endicott High School for 33 years. Date of Interview 2017-12-14 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Year of Graduation 1968 Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Geoffery Strauss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 14 December 2017 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Oh, it is snowing again. Okay, so are we on? Third speaker: 00:15 Yeah. IG: 00:22 So, Jeff, please tell me your name, your birth date, and where we are. GS: 00:32 Okay. My name is Geoffery Strauss. My birth date is May 3, 1946 and right now we are in my living room. IG: 00:43 Okay, so what are the years that you attended Harpur College? GS: 00:47 For our bachelor's, I went there from 1964 graduated in 1968. Then for my master's, from 1969 to 1971. IG: 01:01 Where did you grow up? GS: 01:03 Grew up on Long Island. IG: 01:04 Where in Long Island? GS: 01:06 Baldwin, small town on the south shore, middle of Nassau County. IG: 01:10 So, so what? What were your- What did your parents do? What? What was their occupation? GS: 01:20 My father was a certified public accountant. My mother was for most of my life, a homemaker. IG: 01:27 Right. GS: 01:27 And then when I got to high school, she started a business. So she was a businesswoman for-for a few years, IG: 01:35 Oh, what kind of business? GS: 01:36 Uh, she made things, she made- took-took umbrellas and decorated them, and they had these things called bobeches. They were like a tube. She decorated those, and you put a candle inside, so the candle looked pretty. IG: 01:55 What were- where did you go to high school? GS: 01:59 Baldwin Senior High School in Baldwin. IG: 02:02 Was there an expectation in your family that you would go on to college? GS: 02:07 From the time I was born. [laughs] Yeah, that was one of the things fairly typical for Jewish families. Education is very-very important. So yeah, the expectation was- my father always said you could do anything you want, but first you go to college and then you can do whatever do whatever you want. IG: 02:24 Did you have siblings? GS: 02:25 My sister, had an older sister. She went to Smith. IG: 02:30 So of course, the expectations were for her as well. GS: 02:34 Oh, absolutely. IG: 02:35 Why did you, why did you decide to go to Harper College? GS: 02:38 Kind of a funny kind of story. There was uh, I had been accepted by Drew University in New Jersey, and I went there to look at-- it was a beautiful campus, absolutely gorgeous, like a little piece of New England in New Jersey. Uh, and they had a wonderful program for social studies where you spent your senior year, your junior year, I am sorry, abroad. So I was all set to go there, and then I got accepted at what was then Harpur College, and my mother sat me down and said, "Still, we are still paying on your sister school, Harpur College, your scholarship will take you all the way through while your father said you can go anywhere you want. This would be much less expensive thing." So I ended up going, I ended up going there. So which was actually, I guess, changed my life. My wife there. I changed my occupation there. So it was kind of interesting. IG: 02:57 Right. So what were some of your expectations going in to Harpur? Did you have sort of a career in mind that you would pursue? GS: 03:55 Yeah, I was going to, I majored in accounting, so I was going to take over my father's or join him in his practice, and then eventually take over his practice when he retired. That was the initial thing there. Accounting had no part of my life when we went to Drew, but they had a good accounting program at Harpur, so I switched, and that was my idea there. And I also enjoyed social studies, so I took a lot of classes in the social science department, and a professor there thought I was a social studies major and offered me a graduate position. But I said, I am an accounting major. He said, “You are an accounting major. Why are you taking 200 level courses?” So I said, I like it. So that was a holdover from-from Drew. I just love the politics and the history and-and that. So it is still interested in that. IG: 04:50 So you graduated with a degree in- GS: 04:53 Accounting. IG: 04:54 -in accounting, in accounting. What are you- what is your profession now? GS: 05:01 Well, of course, I am retired now, but for many years, I taught accounting at high school, the local high school, Union-Endicott, and then we also had a program with Broome Community College whereby I taught college accounting. The kids got college credit for-for that as well as high school credit. What was your graduate degree at Binghamton? And- That was in teaching accounting. IG: 05:26 Oh, and teaching in accounting. GS: 05:27 Mm-Hmm. IG: 05:28 What made you decide to go into the teaching profession rather than join your father in his business? GS: 05:38 I had in my- I forgot whether it was my freshman or my sophomore year, they had a pro- they began a program at Harpur called Upward Bound. This was a program for college or kids with college ability, but because of economic or social reasons, probably would not go to school. So this was to encourage them to go. And I became a counselor there, started working with kids, and really enjoyed it. So when I graduated, I sort of combined the accounting and working with kids and went to- started at Maine Endwell, and then moved over to Union Endicott, and played high school for 33-34 years. IG: 06:26 Was your father disappointed that you did not join him in his business? Or did he really like the direction that you were going in? GS: 06:36 It was funny. I think at first, he did not want me to become an accountant. He said as much, too much work, too much work, too much time involved. And I remember, I remember as a kid, you know, he would go- leave in the morning. He would not come home until seven at night because he worked in New York City. And by the time he got home, he did not have dinner until 7:30 or so forth. And then it was basically, after you did your homework, time for bed. So during the week, yeah, hardly ever got to see him, so I realized he spent a lot of time working, but still, that seemed like the thing to do. But I think as I went through college, he sort of warmed to the idea. For a couple of summers, I worked for him, and we worked together going into the city during the summer. We are trimester then, so we had four months off. And so I think he wanted the idea, but then, you know, I sort of moved away, and I do not think he was too upset by it. IG: 07:36 Where did he work? And did he have his own firm? Or...? GS: 07:40 Yeah, he was, he was in, he was in practice by himself, and but most of his clients were in New York City, although he had some up-up- upstate Westchester County. And then actually he had some down in Georgia too. So he would fly to Georgia, do some of his work there. And then he would, he would fly home. IG: 08:00 So what- before going to Harpur, what reputation did Harpur have in your mind and- GS: 08:10 My mind, oh, it was a real, highly academic school, high pressure school, but certainly one of the better-better schools and in the, in the SUNY system. I was out for liberal arts. And so it met my-my requirement there. So it was, it was, it was a good mesh, but it met with its reputation. It was a very high-pressure school. IG: 08:39 And when you arrived and spent some time here, did that impression change? GS: 08:45 Oh, no-no. It just reinforced, once I was a student, that everything revolved around the-the curve, you know, and if you were having a good time, there was some kid back in the in the dorm, studying a little more, which would mess up the curve. So you had a, you had to be back there and studying yourself, so you could get up on that on that curve. IG: 09:13 What was the- so you took liberal arts at first as a requirement. GS: 09:18 Mm-Hmm. IG: 09:18 So what were some- did you have any outstanding courses that you- outstanding faculty that you studied with that kind of pushed you in the direction of teaching? GS: 09:30 Uh, not actually in the direction of teaching. I had a few professors who I really liked. There was one, again, in the Social Studies Department, Dekmejian [Richard Hrair Dekmejian], who was just fantastic. He was he really- I really enjoyed the classes I took with him, and the accounting classes we had Phil Piaker, who was also a local CPA, had his own firm here, and he was terrific. I-I really enjoyed the courses I took from him, but nothing pushed me toward the teaching during the school year, it was, it was the program, the Upward Bound, during that during the summer, that sort of moved me in that direction. IG: 10:14 So you spend most of your time studying, what did you do? What was, what was residential life like? You know, you would spend all your time studying in your room or in the library. And what did you do for recreation? GS: 10:32 [laughs] It was kind of interesting back then. I remember in my freshman and sophomore year that they only had one classroom building called the CA building. Half of it was the administration, and the other, other way was the classroom building. So very often you would go there find an empty classroom. You just sit in there in the evening and then you would study there was nice and quiet. I do not know if they still do things like that, but we did it back then. The library--I did not study in the library too much. It was either in my room or over in the classroom building. IG: 11:04 Right-right. So um, your wife mentioned that she met you in your freshman year. GS: 11:14 Yeah. IG: 11:15 And could you just describe how you remember her from that time? You must have a lasting memory. GS: 11:22 Well, it was funny. She was one of the few upstate people up there. There were so many kids from the metropolitan area, so we sort of called her the funny little upstate girl. And she was very naive, very Catholic. So it was a real change for me. IG: 11:46 Yeah. GS: 11:47 Because most of the kids that I knew on Long Island and associated really with in college too, were nice Jewish boys and girls, and somehow, she-she came, she came to the fore, and there was just something that clicked, right from the very beginning, when I first met her, there was just something special about her, and seemed to work. We have been married for almost 50 years, so it seems seemed pretty good. IG: 12:13 I would say. So, did you first interact after class? Where would you go out? Would you be in your- GS: 12:24 Well, a little bit of both- IG: 12:26 -segregated dorms, which were called co-ed dorms. GS: 12:28 Well, the first semester where we were in what they considered at that time a co-ed dorm, you know, boys in one wing and girls in the other wing. IG: 12:36 Right. GS: 12:37 Then come the fall, that dorm was filled up. So I started during the summer, and then I went over to Broome when Broome first opened up. Now that was the Broome that is not there anymore. They built that building. The construction of it, even when it was brand new, we knew it was really poor. I was like, this building is not going to last. And obviously it did not, because now they have a brand-new dorms. You know, that whole section there. So we, you know, we were there. I had her in a couple of different classes, Spanish class, which was not my forte. So she, she helped me with that. IG: 13:16 She mentioned that. GS: 13:17 Yeah, sometimes by looking over her shoulder, [laughs] uh, languages were not my thing. I took Spanish in seventh grade, eighth grade, ninth grade, tenth grade, eleventh grade and twelfth grade, and they wanted to put me in Spanish. I think two were Spanish three, and all they did was speak Spanish in there. And that was just way beyond me. So they let me audit once again, and then I made it through two, and somehow, I managed to squirm through the language requirement. But boy, that was not easy for me, and it actually runs in the family. My sister had the same problem with languages. She-she took Latin, and then she took Spanish in college, and had the same, same difficulties. We have comprehensions and different thing. Languages not mine- IG: 14:04 You have ability in math, and you have probably for accounting. GS: 14:10 Well, in accounting. And what I really wanted to be for many-many years was an architect. IG: 14:15 Oh really? GS: 14:16 Uh, there was no room for me an architect. I could not do like, I could do the accounting kind of math, the higher math, calculus and stuff like that. I had a lot of difficulty with that. So the architecture was-was going to be out. But I do have a- I do enjoy building things. So that is, that is my idea. I like, I like building accounting systems. I like building physical things, IG: 14:47 Did you build any part of this house? GS: 14:47 Uh, not the house--some of the cabinetry, that clock there, that clock there. So all these things, I build the porch. If you look out in the porch. The porch I built. So, you know, I do like working with my hands, and I got that from my father. He did a lot of woodwork, so I followed with that. I have gone further than but then he did. But then I have- I had being a teacher. I had more time to really do that, and my father never took vacations except to play little golf. IG: 15:19 Um, in my mind, Harpur College at the time was really strong in liberal arts, but you said that you had good experiences in the accounting department. Can you describe what the accounting department was like at the time? GS: 15:35 Uh, kind of difficult at that time we- I was just taking courses, uh, but the idea of eventually, of course, joining-joining my father. Uh, but you know you, they had the courses set up and the catalog--this was the one you took in your freshman year; this is the one you took next, one, next one. So I just follow the progression some professors I like better than others. You know, just like in any, any of the departments, but Dr. Piaker showed he was, he was one of the one of the better ones, because he-he explained things so-so wonderfully, and he had the practical experience to do it, because, you know, he was a practicing CPA as well. Anyway, I just, I just followed her through and eventually got my degree. IG: 16:30 Were you as sort of politically aware as-as your wife at the time? GS: 16:38 She was more politically aware than me. I like more of the history part of it, but the-the mechanics of politics I enjoyed. IG: 16:52 How do you mean? GS: 16:53 You know how different countries worked. You know how they set up their political systems. One of the professors I had in one of my classes, Dr. Ulc [Otto Ulc] I believe he was from one of the communist countries and-and was a judge there and escaped into, you know, into the West. And he was really an interesting guy, really interesting guy. And, of course, he showed us how, taught us how the legal system and the political system worked in the, in the communist regime at the time. And we- you know, compared those to, you know, democracy most of the time in Europe, United States always being sort of a little different. Now, it is all falling apart, but-but-but at the time it was, it was the years of the war in court, kind of liberal, progressive, and it was, and it was kind of kind of fun. I just like those kinds of things. IG: 17:50 Yeah. Were you influenced by the Vietnam War? GS: 17:54 Oh, yeah, a lot, yeah, certainly against the war. Probably one of my reasons for not going into-into accounting itself, we could get a teaching deferment. So that-that-that influenced me a little bit, but if I did not have any interest in teaching, I do not think that would have entered my mind just-just to pick up teaching as for deferment. But that was part of it. IG: 18:17 Yeah. GS: 18:18 Yeah. Vietnam war, with to me, was a disaster from-from the get go, and it turned out, turned out to be- IG: 18:23 Were you aware of it being a disaster? Did-did- GS: 18:26 Oh, yeah-yeah. I did not think it would be such a disaster, where we, you know, I mean, the mightiest army in the world, and could not defeat a whole bunch of, basically a ragtag army. IG: 18:39 Right. GS: 18:39 But they were very dedicated, very clever, very-very dedicated to the to their cause. And I do not think we really had our heart in it. And the truth, I do not think the guys over there had their heart in I do not think the country had their heart in fighting this war. It was more of war for the politicians. And as it turned out, it seemed to be even they knew it was not a good war, but they just felt to save face, we had, we had to stay in. IG: 19:09 Was there- do- in your memory, was there a lot of student activism? GS: 19:15 Oh yeah, there was, you know, a lot of marches-marches, busses going down to Washington, DC. Yeah IG: 19:23 Were you involved in that at all? GS: 19:25 Not as much on campus a little bit, but not-not so far as going down to Washington. I stayed pretty much, you know, on campus with our studying and with our- the group of people who are our friends. IG: 19:41 Did the army recruit at all at Harpur College? GS: 19:45 I do not think so. No, I am not even sure they were allowed on campus. Looking back, it was pretty anti- Very anti-military. -military at that particular point. IG: 19:57 Um, there was a big town and gown separation, and I- in Binghamton, GS: 20:02 [inaudible] IG: 20:04 You know, town and gown. GS: 20:07 Oh, town and gown. I am sorry, yes-yes, I gotcha, yeah. IG: 20:10 So, you know, I imagine that many of the Binghamton locals were probably supportive of the war. GS: 20:18 Yeah, there was not a real close town and gown relationship while we were there at all. There was the town and there was the gown. IG: 20:25 Right. GS: 20:25 And they seemed very resentful of the campus. They did not mind us spending the money in town, but they did not associate with us. I am not sure if that is changed or not. There was very few of the students who lived off campus. IG: 20:40 Right. GS: 20:40 Almost everybody lived on campus at that particular time. Uh, so I guess the relationship between students and-and the community, I do not think we are very strong at that particular- during those days. IG: 20:58 Well, perhaps you know now I noticed that the I know that the university is very invested in helping them- Binghamton community, but before it might not have happened. GS: 21:11 Now, it is a little satellite all by itself. IG: 21:14 And you felt that very much, that you were sort of a culturally apart. GS: 21:19 Yeah, since most of us were from downstate, yeah, and more liberal, this was a pretty conservative. Was and is a pretty conservative area. Harpur sort of stood by itself. IG: 21:30 Right. GS: 21:31 You know, pretty iso- physically, it was isolated. IG: 21:34 Right. GS: 21:35 You know, on campus, small campus, lots of land all around where- which the campus owned, but kept us, kept us separate. The only way to get into town was a bus, you know, the public bus, which had to stop. And the only, you know, the mall, as we know it was not built yet. All we had was the Vestal Plaza and the stores that were there, Britts, which was a department store that is long gone. And so that is where we would go shopping. IG: 22:05 Nobody had cars at the time. GS: 22:07 Very few, very few. There was not even much parking. Eventually, I got a car. I think it was in my junior year, and that really liberated up a lot of us, but we- as far as driving around is concerned, you drove home, you drove back, but once you were on campus, unless you went out for dinner or something like that, yeah, you pretty much stayed on campus. IG: 22:31 So um, tell me about, you know, residential life more and the dormitory situation and where you would visit your wife. Did you go out? Did you visit her at her dorm when you started going out? GS: 22:51 Yeah, well, we did both--for a couple of years, couple of semesters, we were separated. I was in Broome, I think she was in Whitney, and then eventually a place opened up, a room opened up, so I went there. So we were, we were pretty close, because they locked the ladies up. So that, you know, after that the guys would go out, but, and you had to have your girlfriend back on campus, by-by-by curfew. But, you know, we would go out. We would go to dinner together. We would study together. She would help me with my Spanish, one way or another. She did not help me with my accounting. IG: 23:08 Yes-yes. I understand that there were a number of breakups in that relationship. GS: 23:35 Oh, yeah, that is the religious thing. Yeah, we had being Jewish and her being Catholic, my parents were not really keen on-on the-the-the joining of the two, but there were just something about her which I just could not- IG: 23:50 [laughs] That is funny. GS: 23:52 -could not-could not shake. So we kept on going back. And eventually we decided to get-get married. That was, that was a somewhat traumatic area, because my parents did not want us to get married because of the religious factor, and my father said he would disown us and so forth. But once we got married, he got to know her, found out the wonderful person she was and we did not, you know, we did not have any difficulty from that standpoint. But before we got married, my parents sent me to talk to a cousin who was a rabbi, to try and talk me out of it. And then from her, from her side, we had to go to, I think it called pre cana classes, which did not mean much to me, but you did what you had to do, and so we eventually ironed out all the problems, and things seemed to work. Third speaker 23:53 How did you raise your kids? Did they get the both culture? GS: 24:00 Yeah, they did, but that was basically my wife. I was not very religious. I was not very religious. And if it were not for my wife, I do not think they would have gotten much of the Jewish side. But we celebrated both. They did not go to Jewish religious school. They went to Catholic school. Well, you know the after-school kind of Catholic school, Sunday-Sunday school for a couple of years until they were confirmed, but after that, they did not, they did not go and we tried to show them that there were different ways of looking at things. Everyone has their own stuff, but there was really basically a commonality of all religions. But my kids aren't very religious either. Maybe that is my fault, but Jan was the one who made sure that we celebrated both and that the kids knew of both cultures. IG: 25:51 Yeah. Do you think that-that kind of acceptance of, you know, of just of the coexistence, the possibility of coexist, of two religions, coexisting side by side in a family. Was that in any way influenced by sort of the liberal attitudes on campus at the time, or is that something that came to you. GS: 26:23 That is an interesting- that is an interesting question. I cannot answer that. I do not know if it was my liberality. It was more my love for Jan than anything else that seemed to- I could not shake her out of my mind. She was, she was, she was pretty important to my life. From the time I met her, there was a chemistry there, obviously, and I was just determined to make it work. But two of us were determined, even though I said, "No," this is not going to work. This is not going to work so we would break up. Was not her breaking up with me? Was me breaking up with her because this is just going to be too much of a hassle. But then could not get her out of my mind, so I would be back. And then eventually I just scrapped that idea of this is not going to work, and decided it is going to work. IG: 27:14 Did you have expectations of staying in Binghamton, or did you want to return to Long Island? GS: 27:20 Well, that is sort of, sort of interesting. I- uh, Jan was from Niagara Falls. I was obviously from Long Island; we were physically almost right in the middle. It was four hours to her house, four and a half hours to my house, you know, her parents’ house. So her parents, I think, wanted us up there. I know my parents wanted us down there, and we thought, well, this is a good compromise in between, you know, from a physical standpoint. Plus the city in Long Island really started to get to me. It was just the long lines, the hassle down there, working for my father for a couple of summers, pretty much turned me off from-from wanting to-to be down there. It was just too stressful--was not-was not- I adapted more to the Upstate way of life than it was to the to the to the city way of life. We like to go to visit down there. I mean, museums and things were great, nice place to visit, but we did not want to live there. IG: 28:24 So you stayed in touch with Binghamton, with Harpur College and then Binghamton University through the years, right? I mean, you went back to graduate school. GS: 28:37 Right. IG: 28:37 Would you- your wife mentioned that you had exchange students that- welcome to- into your home. GS: 28:44 Right. IG: 28:45 And some of them came from Binghamton. GS: 28:47 Uh, the exchange students did not come from Binghamton. IG: 28:50 Not the exchange but what was the name of the program? GS: 28:53 There was a rotor- the rotary program, yeah-yeah, that, yeah. The Business rotary had the exchange program where they brought students in. They would go to high school, but they needed homes for the for the kids, and they would rotate them, I think, every three or four months, so they had experience with various families in the United States before they, before they went home. And through, I sort of, I think I gave her the idea, I am trying to, trying to think way back, because my-my school participated in the program. We had kids from the program, and my department and the language department shared an office. So they had, they had asked, does anybody have you know- is anybody interested in hosting some of these kids? So I went home and asked my wife, and she said, "Oh, that would be a great idea." IG: 29:44 Right. GS: 29:44 So this started really when my when my daughter was born. IG: 29:48 Right. GS: 29:49 So 40 some odd years ago, and it was, it was really, really, very nice. The kids came into the house. They- our kids had had exposure to. IG: 30:00 Yeah. GS: 30:01 Kids from all different- IG: 30:04 Parts of the world. GS: 30:05 -parts of the world. And then eventually we went and visited some of them in Brazil and so forth. And of course, Jan had the Spanish we had a lot of Spanish speaking students. We did have one from South Africa. We had one from the Philippines, I think all told we had 11 or 12-12, kids here and we and we also had a professor, a teacher, who stayed with us for a few weeks, because we-we were like a sister school of a German- our German department had a relationship, so the- our teacher went over to Germany, and their teacher came over here Helmut, and he was, he was, he was quite a fella. IG: 30:49 But, you know, looking back, there was not a lot of international students or diversity at Harpur College when you were going there were there any students...? GS: 31:00 I think, I think there was not to the extent that they have today. IG: 31:05 No. GS: 31:06 We developed a friendship with one guy from, from Africa, Yeah, your wife mentioned. Yeah. And he was, he was a super guy, but also very-very bright man, and went-went back. We-we have been in contact on occasions, through-through email. IG: 31:28 Right. GS: 31:29 Other than that, we have not but he was a really gutsy guy. He went back to try and improve a lot of the blacks in-in Africa. And he went into some problems with-with the government, which was a, you know, a white government back there. So he was, he was a very, very brave fellow, but, and just a super-super nice guy. IG: 31:51 So you stayed in touch with him, since, you know what he did after graduating. GS: 31:56 Yeah, he-he went on to graduate school, I believe, in Canada and also in England, he kind of got some degrees. We did have a tendency to lose touch during those-those years. We just hit on each other, you know, once in a while. IG: 32:12 By email, by phone? GS: 32:14 Well, back then, it was basically by-by contact, either someone knew of what he did, or things of that nature, or maybe by phone, email was unheard of back then. IG: 32:26 Right. GS: 32:27 So it was not until, I guess, a few years ago, somehow, we got in touch with him, got that phone. We somehow made contact there. It was interesting. We were down in New York City and visiting my sister-in-law, and there were posters on the telephone poles, and he was giving a talk, and we wanted to see him, so we called, and we for some reason, we just could not make contact there, and I was, I was really disappointed and but I cannot remember how, but we did make contact again once email came about a few years ago, because he was a friend, not only of jam myself, but also the-the group of people who we were with. So somehow, we made and then, you know, by this time is his brother had passed away, and, you know, he had his kids and-and what have you. And then we lost, lost contact again. IG: 33:30 So it seems like you had a close group of friends that- GS: 33:34 Yeah, we did. IG: 33:35 -stay with- what-what do you think maybe it was a special thing about the school that kind of engender that type of relation, GS: 33:44 Yeah-yeah. I think so. IG: 33:44 Not everybody stays in touch with their- GS: 33:49 Yeah, well, I think part of it was-was you needed a support system there, because of, again, the pressure, the pressure of the school, so you needed a support system to maintain your-your sanity and your ability to keep on going. So we developed this-this group of, I do not know about ten of us, I guess, and several of us married each other, you know. So now-now we are couples. So we-we certainly stay in touch. We see each other. We are going to see each other over New Year. One of them, one of the one of the group, became a doctor, so we use enough money to buy a home in the Poconos. So we all, we all meet in the Poconos, and then we then meet again, usually during the summer. And now he is going to retire, so I think they are going to be moving permanently to the Pocono place so well they will be close enough to- [crosstalk] IG: 34:47 -is that, did he come to the (19)67 reunion? I see. GS: 34:50 No-no-no, he did not know. The reason being that they, they had another commitment. Uh, but they had, they had wanted to, but they-they they could not do it, but he had graduated at that time to the (19)67-(19)66-(19)67 time. So he was, they were the only ones at the group who did, who could make it. IG: 35:04 [crosstalk]-interested in- what was his name? GS: 35:13 Oh, Wolraich. Mark Wolraich. IG: 35:16 How do you spell it? Because I might [crosstalk] GS: 35:18 Oh, boy, W, O, L, R, A, I, C, H. IG: 35:23 Mark? GS: 35:24 Mark, yeah, and his specialty is working with-with kids like-like our granddaughter. So when our granddaughter was first born and we started to see difficulties with her, he pretty much knew what was, what the problem was, and-and without him, she would not have gotten the help as soon as she would have. It is so difficult to get young kids to see the doctors and the organizations that will analyze and finally determine that-that she was autistic, and he knew people up in Rochester, and he got us, got us in-in just a couple of months, where, if we had called ourselves, it would have been over a year before she could have been seen, because they were just so backed up. I mean, so few facilities, so many kids like this now. So he has been through any-any calls to see how things are going. He looked at the SUNY has a thing for autistic kids, which-which we did not know until the situation came and then and John said- IG: 36:36 It is new center. It is a new center, right? GS: 36:38 It is a school. IG: 36:39 It is a school. GS: 36:40 It is a school. Yeah, it is down behind the old men's gym. Yeah. So we went and visited there, and we went and visited the Handicapped Children's Center in-in Johnson City, looked at both programs and because she is, she is kind of social, where a lot of autistic kids cannot. Along with Mark's input and so forth, we decided that-that would- the one at Johnson City would be a better fit for her. So it has- he has been just terrific. I do not know what we would have done without him. He just moved mountains for her. IG: 37:19 That is very fortunate. GS: 37:21 Very fortunate. Yeah, it is one of those things, you know. It is who you know. IG: 37:24 It really is. GS: 37:25 We were very fortunate. Yeah, one that he was our friend, and that he just happened to go into this field. He runs a big program out in the university where he where he teaches. IG: 37:26 Where does he teach? GS: 37:30 Uh, trying to remember, he has moved around so often. Jan-Jan [calling his wife], Midwest. IG: 37:47 Well, it does not matter, I mean, um, so maybe you could tell me about some of the ways um, that you have seen the university change over the years. GS: 38:09 Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, it became a university. It was not a university. And we were there when we started, and while we were there, it became the State University of New York at Binghamton. IG: 38:20 Right. GS: 38:21 That was the last couple of years. So they developed a small graduate-graduate program, and you get graduate degrees there. And just a physical plant itself has grown enormously since we were, since we were, we were there. We just had the little-little core the brain was-was there. No, but the brain. IG: 38:22 Yes-yes. GS: 38:23 So just-just basically the-the old buildings and the brain were there with a couple of dorms. Then by the time we finished, or almost finished, they built what we called the self regs, which is the Hinman complex, and-and the cafeteria up there. And of course, they have expanded their-their program tremendously, I mean, to the point where they have a school for-for kids with-with difficulties, right on campus. I mean, we had- we did not know the building was there, let alone that there was a school there. IG: 39:18 And now they are expanding the health sciences to Johnson City. GS: 39:22 Right-right down in Binghamton, they have a campus, so they are going to have one in Johnson City. So now they have a, you know, a nursing program, which was not there when we were there, in addition. So, you know, the physical plan and the academic pursuits have just expanded dramatically since-since we have been there over the years. IG: 39:47 Do you think that it still has the spirit of Harpur College? You know, the reputation that it had of being socially committed students and academically rigorous. How has, you know, the- GS: 40:04 From everything I understand, yeah, it is rated one of the, you know, the highest schools in the state university system. IG: 40:10 Yeah. GS: 40:11 So I would say absolutely. And the kids, when we, when we go over there, we do not get off and talk to this, to the students therapy. You could see it. It seems very academic. They have the libraries in each of the complexes now. Now we just have the library now they have satellite libraries all over. The quality of the faculties remain very high as far as doctorates are concerned. So I would say academically, it is probably as good as- IG: 40:43 As it was. GS: 40:44 As it was, yeah. IG: 40:45 But what really differentiated, you know, Binghamton now from Binghamton at Harpur College when you were going? Because it was a smaller school. GS: 40:55 Much more. That is one of the reasons we went there. IG: 40:57 It was, it was a smaller school, was it would you say that it was politically active more so? GS: 41:05 Yeah. IG: 41:05 Do you think that-that is was a response to the times, to the (19)60s, the culture those sort of the youth culture of the (19)60s? Or do you think that it was, you know, peculiar to unique to the school, or, you know- GS: 41:23 Well, I think that the universities, a lot of the universities at the time, in the (19)60s, with the Vietnam War, Kent State, and a lot- IG: 41:23 Right. GS: 41:23 I know that stuff occurred during, during our, our growing up time, and I think that necessitated all the activity, the political activity that was generated on campus at that time, and now-now, I think again, because of the political situation which we have, it probably has, well, it rejuvenated our political interest and made much more active again, after years of, you know, raising a family and and-and working, we have got much more politically active now as a result of the Republicans taking over. So it is- [crosstalk] IG: 42:17 Do you think seeds were planted at Harpur College? GS: 42:19 Yeah-yeah, I think so, yeah. Plus-plus our-our liberal attitude, all right, we are much more inclusive that society has become. We-we just like everybody. That is one of the reasons we like to travel. We like to meet people, talk people. One of the advantages of taking the cruises that we do is we sit dinner with people from all over the world, and you get to talk politics. Although it was interesting. The cruise we just got back from, nobody taught politics. It was sort of a subject which was not brought up. This is the first time, and just so- IG: 42:56 To Sydney, when you went to Sydney? GS: 42:58 Yeah, we went to Australia and New Zealand. IG: 43:01 Right. GS: 43:02 People just steered away, even people from other countries just did not bring it up, which is totally different. IG: 43:08 Well, maybe they are afraid to hurt you by saying anything negative. GS: 43:12 Yeah. Well, you know, you are on vacation, you do not want to get into an argument. And in all-all truth, we probably would not get into an argument because we probably would agree with them. [laughs] As far as the situation is concerned, we are an awful situation. I am really worried about this country staying together as the United States, and we are so-so polarized that I just will be amazed if we survive this as a united country. So hopefully things will change. Do you remember any legends or great stories about Harpur College at the time? IG: 43:53 But the only one was Lake Lieberman. Talk about that. GS: 43:59 Well, behind- in the Broome complex, behind the Broome complex and behind the Newing dining hall, which is now, I understand it is gone. There was a pond, and the story was the time that one kid fell in, and they said, "Should we get them out?" And said, "No, just leave them in." So that is, that is how, that is how the name came about. That was the story. I do not know what the real story was- [inaudible] Lieberman got but that was the story at the time. So that was one of the thing. And then we had the coat ceremony. IG: 44:41 So did the kid live? GS: 44:42 Oh, yeah. I mean, this was not a pond, still there. It was not very deep, and it was brand new. It was a man-made pot. So that was, that was one story which we had, and that was, that was, that was behind our dormitory, so that there were. Two other, I guess, activities, the stepping on the coat ceremony, which was on the Esplanade, which is now gone, unfortunately, that took place, and that was annually, in the spring, when the cold weather stopped and the warm weather began to officially state that spring was here, they would have a stepping on the coat ceremony, where they take an overcoat, do a few speeches in old, an old English--some, some kid wrote an old, I cannot repeat it. Some of the people remember, I do not know if you have a recording of it, but it is it was quite something. And then they, when it was official, they would step on the coat. Okay. Spring has now arrived. That was, that was the official statement. IG: 45:44 Did you see the ceremony performed at any point? GS: 45:47 Oh yeah. IG: 45:47 Oh you did. Speaker 1 45:47 Oh yeah, I saw it, but I cannot repeat the Old English speech that was given, but oh yeah. That was probably the last couple of years I was there. And then the other- [crosstalk] IG: 46:00 [inaudible] as-as being a student on campus, did you attend this? Oh-oh, so people kind of you know, plugged into the student events. GS: 46:05 Oh, sure. Oh yeah. IG: 46:10 on your [inaudible], yeah. GS: 46:11 When we were there, you had the campus was our life. IG: 46:13 Yes. GS: 46:14 When we were there, that was, again, we did not do much off campus. Campus life was-was the life. And there were no other campuses to go to at the time. So, uh- IG: 46:24 Were you into sports? Were you into any other activities? Really? GS: 46:27 No activities. That is kind of interesting. One of the reasons I went to Harpur was--I was a target shooter, and I was on the rifle team in high school, and Harpur had, at the time, a target range by the time I got- but when I came up here, I found out that they had basically closed it down. So I was quite a, quite a disappointment to me. It was still there, but it was not being used. So I even brought my rifle up with me, which had to be locked up with the, with the campus police, and I never took it out. Yeah, or they would not let you keep in the dorm or anything. So that is where it had to be kept. And then if, well, even the campus police did not have guns back there, all they had was a night stick. Everybody has guns, yeah, on campus. I mean, kids have guns too. IG: 47:20 I do not think so. GS: 47:21 Oh! Third speaker: 47:21 Maybe not on campus, but in America- You go to the Walmart and purchase- GS: 47:26 I know it is a gun crazy culture. I know a lot of our friends, yeah, we call them gun nuts, but a lot of my friends are gun nuts, so it is just part of our crazy cultures. I do not understand it, and I am an old NRA person, but that was the NRA back when I was a member. Was a lot different. That organization has been hijacked from an educational to a political group. Anyway. That is sort of an interesting story of itself. But yeah, from a sports I am not very sports oriented. I am also very, probably because I am very, not very good at sports. I am more into reading and doing my woodwork, things of that nature. I wish they would have to work- a wood shop on campus. We could have worked, worked up, but they-they did not. That would have been really cool. And the but the one other activity, if you are talking about sports, was train you were [inaudible] up train, you would- the cafeterias had fiberglass trays. That was very important, that they were fiberglass, and we would steal them borrow and there was a hill right by Broome that goes down towards the-the old gym and the fields down there. So when it snowed, we would take these trades, we would sit on them, and we would shoot down the hill. So that was that was about the extent of my-my kind of physical activity, but it was kind of funny. At some point, they bought new trays, and they were metal trays that were encased in a rubberized plastic case that was textured and they would not slide. So that was the end of tray, unless you got some other device. But we, I guess maybe they did it to save the trays in the in the cafeteria. IG: 49:32 Probably somebody caught on. GS: 49:35 Yeah. [laughs] IG: 49:38 So, you know, tell me what you miss most about those years. GS: 49:43 It had to be the people and the camaraderie we had with-with our group, that was great. I mean, we still meet with the people, but we have, we have, we have spread out so we do not see each other all the time, but I really miss. Living and being together with all-all of our friends, that was really great. I do not miss the pressure of the, of the academics. I mean, it was, I think 10 or 15 years after I graduated, I would still wake up in the middle of night, well, for my nightmare, saying, oh my god, the papers due tomorrow, only to realize, you know, you graduated, like, 10 or 15 years ago, but you had these nightmares, but the people were terrific. And I think also living, you got to learn to live on your own, away from your parents, you know, without their protection- IG: 50:37 But in a community. GS: 50:39 -but in a community which was which was loving and-and safe for the most part. I miss, I miss that a lot, because the world is not safe anymore. My world is not-not safe the way it was. You like-like any most colleges, you are protected. So. IG: 50:58 It was safe, it was a haven. But the world still was not safe with the Vietnam- GS: 51:03 Oh, absolutely. IG: 51:05 -and- GS: 51:05 Yeah, but- IG: 51:06 I am being very aware that you could be- [crosstalk] GS: 51:09 Oh, drafted. Oh yeah, the draft was-was-was an ever-present worry, yeah. But while you were on campus, as long as you had that deferment from- for being a student deferment. You were, you were safe as soon as you graduated. You were, we were in trouble. But they-they had the-the war boards. Well, one of the ways you could be deferred from-from the armed forces was to take this exam. And if you got a certain score in the exam, then you could continue your student affirming. If you did not do it, then you were up for- to be involuntarily taken into the, into the army and sent over to Vietnam. So I remember those. And then they had the lottery late later on, where they picked your name out of a or your birth date out of a hat. And if they picked your-your date, it was more difficult to get into deferment, you know, so and those people who were later dates than they would be recruited later on, but if they had the number of bodies that they needed to-to satisfy the-the army at that particular point, if you were in the-the end of the-the lottery, you did not get called. IG: 52:36 Did any of your classmates get called during the college? GS: 52:42 Uh, only one that I remember, we were not very close. One of the brothers ended up going over, and then, of course, we lost contact with him once he was recruited. But most of us went on to graduate school so we could continue our-our deferments, or we had occupations such as teaching which-which would defer. So most of us did not go. We mark got into a program whereby he had to do public service while he was in medical school, and that kept him out of the army, per se, but he was in the Public Health Service on an Indian reservation. IG: 53:27 Oh, how interesting. GS: 53:27 Well, they adopted- IG: 53:29 Here in northeast, or...? GS: 53:32 Oh, no-no, out west. Okay, see, I- IG: 53:45 You want to stop this? GS: 53:47 Yeah. Third speaker: 53:54 Okay. IG: 53:59 Soum, tell us about- do you recall any great characters from among your group of friends? Could you tell us about anyone you know who was a real character? GS: 54:15 Māori Cruise. I think he was from Cuba. IG: 54:18 Yeah. GS: 54:19 He was a character. IG: 54:20 How so? GS: 54:24 Never took anything seriously. He was always one of those free flight people who just seemed to enjoy life. I think that was probably his Cuban upbringing. He got a mo- he even got a motorcycle. You know, it was my first and only motorcycle ride. Was holding on for dear life. Māori around, but he was, he was just a fun, a fun guy. I do not even think he lasted for more than a year or two at school. He just enjoyed life too much. But he was a real character. We had a, we had a good time, if you wanted, if you wanted a good time. Māori was the guy to go out with. I think he was Cuba- he was Cuban from Cuba. IG: 54:59 Was he a Cuban American or Cuban from Cuba? So, how did you how did he talk about Cuba? How did you feel about Cuba at the time? Did you think that it was an enemy state? GS: 55:13 I do not think so. We-we did not talk politics. As far as that was concerned with the Māori, everything was-was social. You did not talk to him seriously about things like that. In my memory, he was just happy to be here and was enjoying life. So he- his happiness was very infectious. IG: 55:43 How do you think your classmates would remember you from your years at Harpur College? What would they say about you? GS: 55:50 Oh, gosh, if they even remembered me. IG: 55:53 Basically your friends. GS: 55:54 Well, those people, the ones are still friends. Oh, I think they would remember me. IG: 55:59 How? GS: 55:59 Well, how? I do not know. IG: 56:04 [inaudible] yourself from those years. GS: 56:06 Sort of, I am sort of a jokester. I- not practical jokes, but I use a lot of double intenders. I turn words around and things like that. That is sort of my reputation. But also sort of to a certain thing serious. And you can have serious discussions, which we do whenever-whenever we get together, we all talk politics and so forth. We are all of the same kind of political persuasion. And- IG: 56:36 So, You are pretty much the same person that you- GS: 56:40 I do not, I do not see me changing. I think, I think I am more tolerant. I thought I was tolerant them. I think I am more tolerant now. I think my attitude toward women have changed dramatically. I was used- I was brought up at a time when, you know, women did what they were told. Kind of idea. Wives did what they were they were told they were subservient to the husbands. Jan made quick disposed of that very quickly, [laughter] and obviously it was for the good, you know, but I learned quickly that-that is not the way you treat a woman or a wife. IG: 57:27 So you are emotionally intelligent, not only book smart. GS: 57:30 Well, I like to think so. Plus, I was in a profession where there were a lot of women. IG: 57:34 Right. GS: 57:35 In teaching there were a lot of women, so I always considered them my-my equals. I never considered them subserving to me in any way, shape or form. But then I felt the same way about secretaries and custodians. I never- there were a lot of professionals who think of those people and-and the I hate to use the term lesser occupations as somehow being inferior. And I was always friends with all these people. Yeah, we had to treat them- I mean, they are people who just were in a different field. That is all. That is why I looked at it. So I think most of my friends feel that way. And this, I think when they think of me, they-they think of a person who's very accepting and very tolerant and liberal. IG: 58:24 Good. Just [inaudible] I forget this one thing, you were on a judicial board, the punishment for your wife's infraction. GS: 58:38 Oh, not her infraction, her roommate. IG: 58:40 Her roommate. GS: 58:41 Her roommate, her roommates, infraction, yeah, yeah, judicial review board, we had [talking to his wife] No. [his wife replies] Okay. Okay, I have to read this later. Uh, supposedly we were self-governing. Okay. When it came to the real thing, of course, the administration took over. But for minor infractions of the rules, a student was brought before the judicial review board. Nine out of 10 of these things, maybe 99 out of out of 100 were curfew infractions. So we had to come up with some way to punish the girls because their boyfriends brought them home late. I mean, looking back, I was so absurd, [laughs] but we did not take it really all too seriously. Because, I mean, even then, we knew that curfew was kind of, kind of kind of dumb, so we imposed a penalty on Jan's roommate, who came back late, of having to make chocolate chip cookies for the dorm. I mean, this is a kind of a [inaudible]. We had this little, little cubby hole of a kitchen with this little tiny oven, and I knew that Jan mother had sent her with cookie trays and mixing bowls and so forth. So I thought, gee, this would be a good, a good thing. I like chocolate chip cookies. The dorm likes chocolate chip cookies, so why do not we have her make chocolate chip cookies for the dorm? So I did not realize at the time how much work was involved. We probably would have thought of something else, but it was sort of like almost in jest, almost in fun, because a silly infraction, you make a silly punishment. I mean, what do you- what kind of things are you going to do? How did you join this judicial board? You applied. IG: 1:00:49 You applied. GS: 1:00:49 You applied. Yeah, you know, they had different organizations on campuses like the radio or-or the newspaper thing. And I applied. And I do not even know how you got accepted. Right. Just all of a sudden, I was I said, "Sure, I will join that." And you were there. IG: 1:01:08 You were there. Well- GS: 1:01:11 So long ago. IG: 1:01:14 I am, you know, I think that we are going to wrap up soon. I would like to know if there are any concluding remarks that you might have about Harper College and your experience there, and you know how it impacted the rest of your life? GS: 1:01:32 Well, obviously it had a great impact in my life. My best friends, I met there, and we kept, we have kept in touch for 50 years, met my wife there, and we have been married for 50 years, but looking back on it, we had a super-duper education for a super-duper bargain price. The tuition was only $200 a semester at the time-- region, scholarship took care of that, so it was room and board, which I think was $400 or $435 a semester plus books. Why we do not continue to do that is beyond me. I know there is a cost involved, but here we had a situation where superb education a price that anyone could-could pay for and then we went on to make a country. Why do not we continue to do that? Encourage people to do that. I mean, people cannot just go out in the world without an education, especially now. So why do not we willingly and happily educate our populace at a reasonable price, right? Why burden them with years of debt? It is crazy. So I am definitely appreciative of the education I got, and every time I think of the costs, it just makes me laugh, because how- it was what an opportunity we had, what an opportunity we had, and we did not. I do not think we realized it at the time, how great, because we thought that would continue forever. State University is always going to be $200 a semester, and the quality of the education was just terrific. Could not, could not do better. And I assume the quality of education that the kids are getting there to State University today is at least equal to what we had, although the cost is-is a lot more, well, still cheaper than private schools, but because my son went to Ithaca, so we know how that is. But what an opportunity. I am indebted to the state of New York for the education they provided me, both elementary high school and college. Could not be what I am today without them. IG: 1:03:59 Well, thank you very much. GS: 1:04:00 Oh my pleasure. My pleasure. IG: 1:04:02 Thank you so much for your time welcoming us into your lovely home. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Geoffrey H. Strauss Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Strauss, Geoffrey H. ; Gashurov, Irene Description An account of the resource At Harpur College, Geoffrey studied accounting. A summer job as a counselor with the college’s Upward Bound Program for disadvantaged youth decided him on a career in teaching. He taught accounting at Broome Community College and Endicott High School for 33 years. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-12-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 64:09 minutes Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e65665eed6ed35f6286cba4d12321c71.mp3 653fdadaff9cc49f99cc326501fff782 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d6601a42a405c0d053949439a9b06b52.mp3 1e6b427f181b9becca22bf0cd4e3f0a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Macko, George J. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1978-03-30 Subject LCSH Macko, George -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Czechs--United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Politics; Broome Community College; Broome County (N.Y.). Supervisors, Board of; Binghamton Glass Co.; Olum's Furniture Co.; Glassblowing; Clinton Street neighborhood; First Ward; Interpreter; Broome County Airport; St. Michael's Church Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:03 Minutes ; 10:20 Minutes Collection Broome County Oral History Project Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56083">Interview with George J. Macko</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: George J. Macko Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo Date of interview: 30 March 1978 Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to George J. Macko of 36 LaGrange Street, Binghamton, NY, on March 29, 1978. Mr. Macko, will you tell me about the experiences of your people coming here from Europe—coming here—etc.? George: Ready? Nettie: Yes. George: My dad and mother was born in what they call now Czechoslovakia, a good many years ago. Dad came here to the United States—he landed in Philadelphia in about the year 1888. He walked—he didn't have money enough to pay railroad fare from Philadelphia to Scranton, so him and another man that came over with him, they walked the railroad track from Philadelphia to Scranton—and they got—because lot of our friends is living there—so he stayed there a while and worked in the mines. He stayed at the mines a while—and he come back—he moved into Binghamton in 1890. He got his first citizen papers before that and he worked—hard job, to get a job them days—was putting sewer going down through Clinton Street. They hired you for two days and the next two days you was done—you didn't have a job, and you had to struggle along to get a job—so then he went to work and he got a job with Roberson Lumber Co. He had a job working outdoors piling lumber—when they comes in the cars and get piling it—he worked there, oh, ’til about 19—1907—no, 1906—he worked there 1896—he left there—he had a very bad case of asthma—had it tough. But he used to like to take his drinks, and he worked, but sometimes when it comes Friday or Saturday—boy—that was bad! But it’s one of them conditions—like the old timer used to be—that was nothing new to them. And Mother come to this country about 18—1890. She was a hard worker—she used to keep house. They used to have boarders come to live with us—they had good ones and they had bad ones—they had to make both ends meet to get along the best they could. About the year 1907—Dad come home from work one day and I come home from school, he said, Dad, “I'm not going to work anymore, I'm done—I can't work no more ’cause my asthma got me so I can't do anything." So he died. I was ten and a half years old then when he died, and two years later, Mother was in bad shape—she fell down on the ice in the wintertime on the sidewalk, hit the back of head—she went into a coma. She died two years after Dad died. That left us—I was twelve and a half years old at that time—so what happens—so after they both died—I went to live—my sister, my brother and I—went to live with my uncle, Mr. & Mrs. George Tatich. I lived with them. When I was fourteen years old, I had to quit school to go to work—so I started to work for the Binghamton Glass Co. as a mold boy and snapping-up boy. In 1913 I started apprenticeship of being a glassblower—learning the trade, glassblower. I stayed, worked in the glasshouse until 1924. I quit there in '24 and I went to work and started to work at Olum Furniture Co. on Clinton Street. Mr. Jacob Olum was the owner and proprietor of the business, and I worked for him, and I been working for him continuously until I retired after 51 years working. I come up the hard way with ’em—I met all kinds of people, good and bad—we managed to get along the best I could. I used to talk, go out to be a witness for, witness for people to be a citizen of this country—and used to go out to work selling furniture and go out, help a whole lot on different things—being sort of an interpreter for things for to help them along when they would buy homes, etc.—which we did—and they got going good—and I got to be working in the store. We got in the Slovak people, Polish people, Czechoslovakian people, Ukrainian people—and you meet them all—I could understand them and I could talk with them all—I had no difficulty at all. So, I worked ’til 19—19—after forty years of working for the store—I retired after I was 69 years old on social security. After I retired Mr. Olum wanted me to come back to work two or three nights a week, so I decided—I went back to work three times a week with a salary of $30.00 for twelve hours, and I stayed there, I put in eleven years doing that and I worked there ’til I was taken sick—and with doctor's orders, I decided to give up work, so I haven't been working since. So, my political help, I started to get in politics about in the year 1928. I was elected Secretary of the Roosevelt—Roosevelt Victory Democratic ticket—Secretary of the First Ward Group that we had here—and I kept being in politics, and went along and here of 19—1934—or ‘35, I run to be supervisor for the First Ward—and I was elected to that office, and I was elected continuously to that office from 19—1936 to 1955. In the 1955 election I got beat and that ended my career as a politician. Nettie: Well, tell me more about your politics—exactly what your job was. What was your—trustee, councilman, supervisor—? George: Supervisor. Nettie: Supervisor of what? George: I was county supervisor for twenty years. I was on different committees—I was on a whole lot of important committees on the Board of Supervisors—I spent nine years on the Finance Committee that made up the finances and the budget for the county for the year. I was on that for nine years. I was on the law Legislative Committee about nine years. I was on the Airport Committee from the time we started it, ’til I got beaten in the election. I was on the construction of the airport, and after the airport was finished—then I was on the committee that started when they started going to work on building a new college in Binghamton. The Board of Supervisors elected twelve members to be on the committee about getting a college in Binghamton. We decided to do that and the Board of Supervisors voted to appropriate one million dollars for that new college that we were supposed to have. Things went along smoothly, then all of a sudden things turned around. Lt. Governor—er—er—Lt. Governor of the state, he came down, we had a meeting with the Board of Supervisors. He wanted us to go to work and start another college in the city and at one million dollars that we wanted to appropriate for the state college—to go to work, to put that toward the new community college that, they called it at that time—it wasn't community college, at that time, it was the School of Science. So they took—they—they split the committee of the twelve men—they took three men, Harry True, myself, and Hugh Wheeler to be on the new school that we wanted to open up—which today is Broome Technical School. And I been on that school from the time they started it ’til I got beaten in the election. I still have a lot of faith in that school and I think it is one of the Godsends of our County for having a school like that. That is a very good school. Nettie: Mr. Macko—how about telling me more the airport—how it started—how did it get around? I know it had something to do with the Johnsons—I'm not sure. George: Johnsons? Johnson—what's-his-name was on the committee. Nettie: Charlie Johnson? George: See, they had an airport in Endicott, but they wanted to have a bigger airport because the government would not put any money into that airport because of circumstances in the airport that they didn't think would be feasible to do it. So they appointed a committee—Johnson was on that—ooh—President of the Ansco Co. was on that—quite a few real business people were on that committee. So they come before the Board of Supervisors to see what we can do, if we would be—interested in building the airport—so we had a meeting, and this group of people come and explained to us why we should have a new airport here and so forth, like that. And, ah, ’course I was interested in aviation because my son was a flier. My son is a flier in the Navy. After they got through talking, we heard all sides of the story and the Board was kind of quiet, so I said to this—I can't think of his name now, he used to be a big wheel here—I said, “You people—now you sell up a idea, this here airport, now you should go out, and go out and canvas the city and different parts of the city, kinds of different parts of the county, then come back to us with the report—see what you made on it.” And it went along like that, and they came back and then the board decided that we go along building the airport. Nettie: How did you find that site? Why not another site? George: This committee that was working on it, they had that all located. They showed us the site before we started to do it. We all saw it. It's a good site, but still, it’s a condition of Broome County—when you get fogged, you get fogged in—you can't help it, it's a situation we have here. Nettie: A sort of pockets there, too. George: That's right. The airport did a good thing for the community. Nettie: Yes, business. George: Everything. Everybody. A lot of people come back, come back and objected to me, come up, a lot come up, he said, “George, we gave you the devil for being for the airport, but we're sure happy you done it." Nettie: That's right, that's right. George: I said that's all right—that's the way you got to take it—some good and bad. Nettie: That's right. George: I says I always manage—oh, when—I always manage, when I even voted—when I even voted for anything in the county, on the different budgets, I always went to work—I went to court [inaudible], hard concepts, I listen to ’em—I'm talking—if it's a good thing and they satisfaction me, I voted for it. And if I wasn't satisfied, I'd question them about it—and after I questioned, if the question come out to my satisfaction, I voted for it, if not, I voted against it—and that was always my motto when I voted for anything. Nettie: Other words, you voted, you went along as though it was something of your own, as though that was your private thing. George: Well, the benefit of the people, for the benefit of the people. Nettie: That's right. Your heart was really in it. George: That's right. I didn't want to hold up anything that wasn't, that wasn’t—anybody that was detrimental to the city, I didn't like. Nettie: Did you ever know the Kilmers? Did you ever know anything about the Kilmers? George: I've known of them, but I never had any contact with ‘em. Nettie: How about the Link people? Do you know the Links? George: I know Ed Link, but, ah— Nettie: Just through business? George: Just through business, that's right. Nettie: Nothing personal. Well, how about telling me—where was this Olum's located? On Clinton Street, or was it located— George: —Clinton Street. Nettie: Clinton Street. At that era, say fifty years ago, I know that they had, probably, many stores and probably, I think Jewish people had stores, and things like that. Will you tell me something about that? Other people you got involved with? George: Well, there was different people had businesses there, mostly grocery stores—why, mostly—there were two or three Jewish places had grocery stores. Then they had a dry goods store that they have, that they used to have on Clinton Street, people by the name of Smock’s. They used to have children—children's—and baby dressing, and dresses for the ladies. They was in business for quite a while, but then he died off, she died off—that closed that business up—and then they had a lot of people running the hotel—saloon, drinking places, that so many of them had, some in and some out. Nettie: Wasn't there a Lincoln Hotel at one time? George: Yeah—Lincoln Hotel. Nettie: That's before Ann Kolota had it. George: Well, Lincoln Hotel, Mr. Torony owned it—he used to have a corner on, a hotel on the corner of Charles and Clinton Street. He was doing business there, but he had to get out of there, so then he went to work—took the Lincoln Hotel over. And he’d run that for quite a while—and went along, got along good—we used to go there and I used to meet him quite often—every week, my wife and I’d go there every week. They used to have dances, there’d be dancin’, we'd meet different people and we'd have a glorious time there. So Mr. Torony got down to the point, he says, "George,” he says, “I want to give up—I want to sell.” He says, “I want to sell it to you."  I says, "Steve! Sell it to me?” I says, "I haven't got the money to pay for that."  He says, "What do you care? I'll take a mortgage."  Yes, but I said, "I don't want to worry about a mortgage." But it went along, and a fellow by the name of Maxim come along, he bought it. Maxim had it for quite a while, and he sold it—and I don't know who had it now since the Kolotas had it. I don't know who runs it now. I used to go out, and people who come from the old country had to go, they all had to go and order up cit—get citizen papers. I used to go out, I can't tell you even how many people I went to be—ah—be a citizen, put in for citizen papers for. Well sometimes, ah—they used to make me mad—they wouldn’t come and tell me, "Will you go for me?” but they’d come up and tell me, “You gotta go for me.” And it’s the night—the day before they got to go to court, they’d say, “You got to go with me." So I turned a few of them down. Anyone—anybody that wanted me to be a witness for ‘em and I didn’t like their character, I wouldn't go. I wouldn't go for everyone, because one time I went for a witness with another fella—both of the fellas are dead—one was a witness and one was the man running for citizen paper. We went up—I never had to worry about what I said or done, but I wasn't—I wasn’t—I didn't hear what the other guy had to say, so I was going to be honest—so this examiner, when we got through, he said, he says, "All right,” he said, “I will rest your case, but,” he said, “when you come before the judge and get citizen papers,” he says, “I will put perjury charges against you.” Nettie: Put what? George: Perjury charges. Nettie: Oh, perjury. George: So we had to go from one office to another to sign up. Someone—but this thing was bothering me all the while. And I said to the guy, I says, "Come on back." Ah, he said, "Where?" I said, "We're going back to the examiner, again." He said, "Why?" I said, "He said something I didn't like as far as myself is concerned—I don't know about you, but I'm fighting for myself." So I went in there and saw him. He said—I think his name was Smith—I says, "Smith, did I understand you say that you passed us all right but when it comes to court—before the court to get the papers, you’ll go put perjury charges against us?"  He says, “Yes,” so I says, “Let me tell you, Smith, right now.” I said, "You want to make damn sure that the perjury charges you're going to put against me, that they’re gonna be good, or I'm gonna sue you.” I said, "I will not go to work and stand up to anybody accusing me of perjury when I haven’t perjured myself." Well, we come to court, he never mentioned a thing about it—he just said to the judge, "Pass the guy." But I'm telling you, so—you had some of them couldn't write their names, you know, hard workers—they never wrote in their lives [inaudible]. I had one guy in particular, Harry Terre—Harry Tatiliba. He's [inaudible] junkyard [inaudible] iron all day long—how do you expect a guy to write a letter when he never wrote a letter before? So he had it in there and the examiner called me in and he said, "George,” he says. he says, "I like this guy and all that, but he says he can't sign his name.” I said, "Let me talk to him in his language.” I said, “He'll sign it.” I said, “he'll do it, just let me talk his language.” So I told him in his language, I said, "If you don't sign your name, you're not going to get the citizen papers, so take your time—try to write as plain as you can. Take your time, don't rush it." He did. (Laughing.) Nettie: They have to have someone interpreting for them. George: That's right. I had—I had to ask permission to interpret for him. So—I’d never done that. Nettie: That was interesting. George: Another time I went up for a witness for a man. He was born here—in Scranton—well, he goes outside of Scranton. When the war come along they took him in—pushed. He said he wouldn't go and fight because he wasn’t going to fight against his brothers over there, his father and brothers in the old country. And he was born here, they took him in, but when he got discharged from the Army he got his citizen papers. So I went up to be a witness for his wife for papers, and this examiner—she took her husband's citizen paper with her—and he questioned her, he says, "This is your husband?" She says, "Yes”—and he was born in, near Scranton, and was baptized in Scranton—she said, "Yes."  Well, he said, "He didn't need no citizen papers—he's a citizen in the first place." Well, he said, "The government gave it to him when he discharged, so that's it." So, you see there was wrong in there, too. Nettie: That's right. George: So, she got her paper without a bit of trouble. But most of the people, I never had none of them turned down that I went to be witness for—because I was careful who I went for. I went for Slovak people, I went for American people, I went for Italian people—those that I knew they was all right, I went for ‘em, no trouble at all. And I never tried to charge any of them any money for going—although losing time at work, but never charged any of them—but some of them would give me a donation once in a while. And a friend of mine, I went for citizen’s papers for him and his wife—and they both got it. And I was running for election that year, and he went to work, he said, to some people he said, "Don't vote for George. George has been there long enough,” he said, "get somebody else to run." I said, "That's what I get paid for being his witness." (Laughing.) Nettie: People are comical, aren't they? George: You got ups and downs, I'm telling you. Yeah. Nettie: Since we're on Clinton Street, how about telling me something about that Horvatt Bank that was closed— George: Horvatt Bank was closed by the State Dept. of Banking—they closed it. There was a discrepancy or something, something like that. I don't want to bring in the bi—the other part of it. But it, ah—It hurt the people of the First Ward and hurt the business of the First Ward when that bank went under. There's no question about it. It’s just too bad that it happened. Nettie: Mr. Macko, what kind of people went to that bank? Why didn't they go to Binghamton Savings Bank? Why did they go to Horvatt Bank? George: They went to the Horvatt because he's one of our kind, and he used to have a good reputation. His dad used to run the beer business, which, my dad used to go there every week—had a grand time—and the family was well known, so the people had a lot of confidence in him so they went to the bank. Now, you take all the churches—all the churches had money in banquet—er—Horvatt's Bank. I was elected Treasurer in St. Michael's Church in the July. When the half year was up they elected me for a full year, so, a year and half as Treasurer in St. Michael's Church. After that I was elected for President of the Board from 1923 to '29. In '29, after the year 1929, I didn't want to be on it any longer, so I—I was elected but I refused it, wouldn’t be swore in, so that stopped it. Then, I didn't get elected—got elected again in 1934. In 1934 I took it again amidst a lot of turmoil—church fight was starting in there—which I didn't like, didn’t need in the first place, because I knew the law says, when you got membership laws to go by, that's all you got to worry about—membership laws. Well, St. Michael’s Church was dedic—er—elected—er, appointed by 27 families. They got the charter for St. Michael’s Church in 1920—er, in 1904, and when I was there I tried to keep within the law on everything was done, and the people had confidence in me and they always wanted me in there. So after I served in 1920, er, ‘34, this church fight got started, harder, hotter and hotter, and I tried to calm it down the best I could. I used to tell ‘em, he says, "Look at this—why do we have to fight? Don't go to the left, don't go to the right, but stay in the middle of the road,” and I said, “If you stay in the middle of the road, you're gonna win. And if you don't stay in the middle of the road, you don't win.” Well, it just happened, they wasn’t under membership laws in New York State. Well, the law, the charter said we should have the Greek Catholic Church—Greek Catholic Church rites. That was in the charter. But that was, that was the fight about Greek Catholic Church religion, fighting, that didn't help ‘em any. But if I say, there wasn’t no law to take ‘em out of the—they even sent two lawyers to the old country to check up on the history of the church and everything—Bernie Chernin and another guy. That was a vacation for them. Who paid—and who paid for it? The poor people. So—is there anything else? Nettie: When you were telling me about—you were working—your dad was a glassblower? George: I was a glassblower. Nettie: You were a glassblower. George: I was a glassblower. I was seventeen years old when I started blowing glass. Nettie: Mr. Macko, will you tell me the procedure of blowing glass? I think it is quite interesting—can you explain it? Or if you can’t, you have to show it, is that it?  George: (Laughing.) You know, we used to have thirty-three glassblowers working at the glassworks, but every year they allowed, they’d usually allow them to put one apprentice—to put an apprentice on, so, every year there's men put in for ‘em. I went in for a four-year apprentice—they used to have a five-year apprentice, but when l went in it was a four-year apprentice. We used to have old glass—sand, soda, lime, and potash—and we used to melt it, and we used to have about a hundred tons of glass melted just like molasses, day and night. And you’d have a long pipe, a pipe about that long [about 24”], and you’d put a [inaudible] on the end of it, and you'd go to work and gather that glass, take it and roll it on the stone or iron, and you had a form for the bottle, and you'd go to work and before you closed the bowl you’d blow the bottle out. So they used to make bottles from—anyway, I used to make a bottle from one half ounce up to sixteen ounces—but then, they used to make bottles up to five gallons, but that I couldn't do because that was too big a job for me. Nettie: Is that only bottles, or did you make vases and other things? George: Bottles. Nettie: —just bottles— George: Just bottles. So, in 1923, the year—we closed for the season, and then '24, I started work for Olum. That was the end of my glassblowing business. But that was hard work. In wintertime, half a side you were burning and the other side of you was freezing, and blowing glass all day long was no picnic. You had to go clear round the—you had to work in union—unison. And if you didn't—if you happened to stop—the thing didn't work out for you when you was on, on the kneading board. To divide it, you'd have to holler, “Look out!” because the man would come around with the hot glass and hit you in the rear with it—burn your pants if you didn't holler. So you had to be watchin’ all the time. Had to go day round, day round and round and round. Nettie: Did this have something to do with your respiration after many years? George: Didn't bother me. I used to play in a band, even! Blow glass, play in a band. Oh, no. We, ah—back in 1912, we started a band from St. Michael’s Church. Nettie: Just a few men? George: Oh, there were the few of us—then there was quite a few of them, wound up, but the band went along, gone along good. Nettie: What did you do in the band? How many in the band, and what part did you play in it? George: I played the cornet. I played the cornet, but then I quit that band, and guys asked me to go to work, get a saxophone—and I start blowing, training on the saxophone and I went to work, went to first work for the Slovak Citizens Band. I played in that afterward. But St. Michael’s band—they had a nice band, but they broke up. Nettie: Where did you play? At picnics, things like that? George: Yes. Nettie: Did you have high school? George: My education—I went to school when I was seven years old and I quit when I was fourteen—I got up, er, finished the seventh grade and graduated the glassblower. (Laughing.) Yeah. Nettie: Your education was experience throughout life, right? George: That's right—but thank God I struggled along all right. I can't complain. Nettie: Did you have a son in service? George: Yeah—my older boy. Nettie: Will you tell us about your family? George: I got two sons—and they’re both high school graduates—-and then he started—the War come along—he went to work and started to take night school in Endicott High School to be a pilot, and he went along. They picked ten men out of the class to go to work and take flying lessons in the Endicott Airport—so, he was one of the ten—so then he went to work after that certain length—-certain courses to go through. Then they took, out of the ten—they picked out five others to go for another course of flying, and he went along—he won every one of them because—so things come along, and the report come out from Washington that all the civilians in pilot training have to join the service—and there's ten of them up in Endicott. There were some from Massachusetts, some from New York in the class—so they got together and, “We got to join, we got to join the service”—so they went to the Navy-Army recruiting station here. They wanted to enlist as pilots in aviation in the government—they wouldn't take them, so they decided to go to New York and got the Navy Department up there to see if they could take them in. Well, they had a meeting there, the twelve men, and they said, “We will.” He says, “Gonna take a couple of you, two of you is gonna pass. One is perfect—he's in from right today—he's in.” That was my son. They take him for this one. “From today on, you're a Navy man. Go out and buy a uniform and the government will pay for ‘em—and the government will pay for ‘em.” And the other boy, he's a boy from Owego—they gave him thirty days to fix up his teeth and report back in New York in thirty days, and he was appointed after that—so my son was in there. He trained pilots for the Navy for I think, for two and a half years. So then they went to work—so, they kinda closed down on that after, they went to work—they send them out to be instructed to be fighter pilots, so my son, the older boy, is a Navy fighter pilot, and they laid him off and he got through with the rank of Commander—from Ensign to Commander is quite a step without a big education—so he came back home, and he wanted—to put in full time and part time. He's got 27 years in as a Navy pilot. Nettie: Is he living here—in the Triple Cities? George: He's living here—he's living up above us on this street. He's got two boys, both college graduates. Both work for American Airlines—one works out of the super—vice president's office—the older one works out of the vice president's office as a troubleshooter or something, and the other one, the younger one, works in the accounting office, and my younger boy, Joe, he works, lives with me here—and he's been working ever since he graduated college—er—high school, for GAF for 34 1/2 years, and he got laid off. Nettie: That was sad. George: Yeah. He can't get a job—to get a job for $2.65 an hour—but when you’re making more money than that, try and get a job. Try and get a job. Nettie: I know. It is very hard. George: Them are the situations. Nettie: Mr. Macko, when you worked at Olum's, what kind of wages did you get—years ago, compared to wages now? George: I started there at $25.00 a week—you work from 8 o'clock to 9, 10 o'clock at night. Nettie: Every day? George: Every day, every day. Nettie: How did they deliver furniture? Must have had buggies? George: They had a truck—truck. Nettie: They always had trucks? George: Yeah, I was a salesman, I was a salesman—help uncrate the stuff, crate the stuff, polish the stuff, truck driving. I done everything, even swept the floor in the store. Nettie: For $25.00 a week? That was when? How long ago? George: That was back about 1924-1925. Nettie: Now the wages are different, right? George: Then we got a raise. Then, when Horvatt Bank went under in 1929, we had to take a cut in wages again. Nettie: Oh. George: The boss lost his money—so them are the things. Nettie: How about the charge accounts? Will you explain? George: They have charge accounts—which is a good account—good charge account. They'd have—before, they didn't use to have a charge account, and especially when we had floods. The people that were born here and they owed him more, more. Mr. Olum didn't crowd them—anything—he asked them to go along, “Pay a little as you can,” he said [inaudible] and you work along with ‘em. Then after that, he'd take the furniture and have it fixed for repairs—stuff like that—and then he started a Red Circle Credit Bureau, which you can have—buy furniture—without paying a carrying charge on it for a year. After a year there is a carrying charge, but the carrying charge is about—at that time was, I think, about 10%—that was made on the schedule, that average was 10%. On the electrical end of it, they used to give them ninety days without a carrying charge to pay for it. If they didn't pay for it, then you had to pay a carrying charge—and the carrying is the same way they are today in the store—you're doing business directly with the store, not with outsiders. See, it is a company-owned store. Nettie: Sounds like Mr. Olum was a very nice man to work for. Sounds like he had a lot of compassion for people, the way you tell me. George: He was very good to the people, very good. That's why all the people used to go to him, because he was so nice to ‘em—he was a Jew but he was like one of us, as far as that goes. Nettie: Is he still living? George: Oh yes, he'll be coming home from Florida in April. He's going to be 84 years old and I'll be 83—the same day—yeah. He was a very nice man to work for—-because I lived there—er, worked there that long. Nettie: He sounds like a very nice man. George: Yeah. Nettie: Going back to Clinton Street, do you remember any people or characters who were colorful—someone comical—something outstanding about certain people? George: Well— Nettie: Maybe someone prominent? George: There weren't any too prominent. They was all congenial—all happy, jolly, full of jokes, etc. Nettie: Well, do you want to tell me anything else, Mr. Macko? George: I don't know— Nettie: What social life did you have? George: My social life was very good. My wife—we're married 62 years, will be 62. We got along good—we raised a family of two boys—getting along right now—getting along good right now, thank God. As far as social life, we can't complain—as long as we are healthy and well, that's the main thing, the rest will come gradually. Nettie: Do you belong to any clubs? George: Just the First Ward citizens. Nettie: Do you go out there? Do you have your meals there? George: I haven't been in there quite a while. Look, all winter long I haven't drove my car—from the day—all winter long. The boy, younger boy stayed home, he said, "Stay home. Never mind driving the car, roads are so bad—get off of them," so I stayed home and didn't drive. Nettie: It was a bad winter, wasn't it? George: Oh, it was awful. Nettie: Is there anything you have interesting for our tape? Something on your mind? George: Say, there is one thing. You go down to First Ward Library, there is a library book in Slovak that was made by Mr. Mazar and Paul Sasinek. I saw it four years ago—has the history of the Slovak people in the Ward here. If you get a chance to look it up, you'll see it. Nettie: I think it will be very nice. George: I think you'll get a whole lot out of that. Nettie: Well, Mr. Macko, it was a pleasure of you giving us information for our tape. Thank you very much. George: You’re welcome, I assure you. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George J. Macko Subject The topic of the resource Macko, George -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Czechs--United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Politics; Broome Community College; Broome County (N.Y.). Supervisors, Board of; Binghamton Glass Co.; Olum's Furniture Co.; Glassblowing; Clinton Street neighborhood; First Ward; Interpreter; Broome County Airport; St. Michael's Church Description An account of the resource Macko talks about his father immigrating from Czeckoslavia and settling in Binghamton, NY. Both his parents died when he was young and he and his siblings lived with a relative. At fourteen he left school to work for the Binghamton Glass Co. where he learned the glassblowing trade. He details the operation of the glassblowing. He left there after ten years to work for Olums Furniture Co. on Clinton Street. He worked there for fifty-one years. He describes the Clinton Street neighborhood and the businesses located there. He served as an interperter and assisted immigrants in the community with paperwork for mortgages and citizenship. After retiring he became involved in politics. He served as a County Supervisor for twenty years representing the First Ward. He speaks of being on several committees during his time as a County Supervisor and was involved with the creation of Broome Technical School [Broome Community College] and the Broome County Airport. He also served as a board member of St. Michael's Church. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fa Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 71 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Macko, George J. ; Politylo, Nettie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-03-30 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 34:03 Minutes ; 10:20 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/906395bc0cc8ef05d8f661f27ef8bfc1.jpeg 3b190216bd959a59e5424b0e301c0a9f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/356ef9f83c49257d1f93e7e4967c924c.WAV b84b18a66aeba4af2fe08887afa225d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 5/4/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone and Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 3:16:10 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Keywords Armenians; Family; Community; Genocide; Church; Binghamton; Turkey. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 4 May 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview I) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History project at Binghamton University in Special Collection’s Library. Would you please state your name for the record? 0:10 JK: Jerry Kalayjian. 0:12 GS: And Jerry what year were you born? 0:14 JK: 1934. 0:15 GS: Okay, where were you born? 0:18 JK: Here in Binghamton, New York. 0:19 GS: And you lived here the whole your life? 0:21 JK: Except for ten years, yes. 0:24 GS: Okay, what was the– what were your parent’s names? 0:27 JK: My mother was Siranoosh. She used Sarah. My father was Avak and he used George. 0:35 GS: And where were your parents from? 0:38 JK: My mother is– was from the city of Sebastia, Sivas in Turkish, and my father was from a small town called Everek which is now called Develi and that is south of Kayseri, modern day Turkey. 0:57 GS: When did they come to America? 1:01 JK: My dad came in 1913 to avoid conscription. The Young Turks opened up the army to non-Turks and he was smart enough to get out. He was going to go back, but after the genocide there was nothing or anyone to go back to. So he came in 1913. My mother came– she is a survivor of the genocide; young, strong and lucky. She came here in 1921. 1:30 GS: Okay, how did she make her way here? 1:36 JK: Her step-mother’s brother, who was living in Philadelphia sponsored my mother, her sister, her step-mother, her step-mother’s sister and a woman who ended up becoming Mr. Gebegian’s wife, it is the gentleman who was in Philadelphia who sponsored the five of them to get them over to this country. And he did not have the money. He had to beg, borrow and steal the money, and the way it worked is when– if somebody came over and got married, the new husband would pay back the cost of bringing the woman from– wherever she came from, you know, to this country. 2:26 GS: So, it was pretty common for people to have wives brought over? 2:31 JK: Yes, potential wives, yes absolutely. 2:35 GS: Was it, like the whole system of arranged marriages or was it just– culturally accepted that marriages were arranged and individuals were all practicing this? 2:46 JK: Well, there was no such thing as we know here of meeting, dating, falling in love and getting married. Marriages were always arranged. Some of them worked out very well, some of them were disasters but divorce did not exist. So you were stuck with one another for life, but the arranged marriage was a very common thing. In fact, it was the only thing as far as I know that existed in the Near and Middle East. You know, so, yeah, there was standard operating procedure. 3:16 GS: Was that the case for you and for like your generation? 3:21 JK: Oh, no. We did the normal American thing, you know. You met a girl and you dated her and fell in love with her and you married her. 3:29 GS: What about your sister? 3:31 JK: Ditto, both sisters. I have two, well I had two. We lost Berjouhi a few years ago, unfortunately. 3:38 GS: Okay, so you grew up– So, did your parents attend university or high school? 3:45 JK: No, my father according to his story, he was ten years old when his father died. And he stopped going to school at the age of ten because he had to go to work to help support the family. My grandfather, my mother’s father had to be a little bit unusual or nuts. He wanted to send all his children, male and female to college, but the genocide ended that for my mother, she was in school in 1915 it was end of her schooling– formal schooling– you know because the genocide started in the spring, so when the school year was over, I should know but I do not remember, May, June they were on the road you know on the march south towards ̶ 4:39 GS: What did your father do for work in the United States? 4:46 JK: I do not know what he did before they came to Binghamton. [phone is ringing] Okay, she has got it. She will not let me turn it down because her hearing is bad, she wears hearing aids, you got to have it up high and I find it, I am going to– 5:00 GS: So you were saying about what your father did. 5:02 JK: Yeah, I do not know what he did in the early years but the family came here from Phil– I was born here but my sisters were born in Philadelphia. They came here in 1932, I think to Binghamton. And here he worked for Ballard & Ballard Dry Cleaner. He was a presser– pressing cloth and if you have not heard of Ballard & Ballard, it is a Kradjian family and there was the forerunner to Bates Troy, they bought Bates Troy later. And he worked there in the (19)30sand (19)40s. Before that, I know he worked in a coffee house in Troy for a while that his first cousin ran. That’s Troy, New York. 5:52 GS: So he worked with the Mr. Kradjian then? 5:55 JK: He worked with who I call Uncle Arsham, Uncle Kegham. Yes. 5:59 GS: Wow, Ara was actually one of the first people here that I interviewed. 6:04 JK: Okay, Ara’s dad and uncle. Yeah, Ara and I grew up together. He is six months or something older than I am. 6:12 GS: I love finding the connections now. 6:15 JK: Oh, it is just a small community, you know, everybody knew everybody. I will not say everybody was friends with everybody, but everybody knew everybody. 6:22 GS: Okay, so– did a lot of Armenian people work at Bates Troy? 6:28 JK: I would say several, well your great aunt; her husband was there, John Bogdasarian. My brother in law’s brother, Ed Sareydarian worked there before he went to IBM. My dad, another Uncle Avak Karibyan he left to go on a business for himself. I am sure there is more but you know several Armenians in the community worked for Arsham and Kegham. 7:05 GS: Okay, did your, your parents spoke Armenian, obviously? 7:08 JK: Yeah, Turkish and English. 7:10 GS: Armenian, Turkish and English? Did they speak Armenian in the household, did they speak Armenian to you in the household, did they speak Armenian to you? 7:16 JK: Yes. 7:16 GS: And so you and your sisters all spoke Armenian? 7:19 JK: Yes. 7:19 GS: Was it just a product of having them raised in an Armenian household or did you attend Armenian language school? 7:25 JK: No, I do not think we had anything like that here. Would have in Philly or New York, but did not have in small city like Binghamton. So, and when we heard Turkish, if our parents wear speaking Turkish it was meant to keep us in the dark. You know, it is none of their business or we do not want them know what we are talking about. 7:46 GS: Would you say that you spoke predominantly English or Armenian in the household? 7:51 JK: Oh, growing up as a kid, primarily Armenian. 7:54 GS: Was it difficult for you to learn English when you went to school or did you have enough English that it was a simple transition? 8:00 JK: I did not have a problem because I had two older sisters. I was bilingual but my sisters in Philadelphia did not speak a word of English when they started school and down there, this is back in the (19)20s– no kindergarten– so the age of six started first grade and they were a year a part, thirteen months. So when they started school, you know– foreign world, foreign language. 8:25 GS: It must have been scary for them ̶ 8:27 JK: I am sure difficult. 8:28 GS: Did they ever talk to you about it? 8:32 JK: Just other than the fact they did not speak English they had difficulties, you know, learning English but at six year old is still pretty good. 8:40 GS: Okay, so growing up in the Armenian community here would you say that your friend– 8:45 JK: I am sorry– 8:46 GS: So I was saying, when you growing up, you say that you mostly socialized with Armenian children or did you also have American friends as well? 8:57 JK: I would say– oh god, how do I– maybe fifty-fifty, sixty-forty, American friends along with the Armenian friends. 9:11 GS: Were they separate groups or did they intermingle? 9:14 JK: No, for the most part separate groups I would think. Yeah, I grew up with a ̶ what I consider an Irish Roman Catholic neighborhood. I was– I did not realize this until I grew up but I was the token Protestant, the token black or person of color. I was the token of a lot of things. Because a lot of blue-eyed blond redheads running around and me. 9:39 GS: So, did you, you were raised– so you were a Protestant, you were raised protestant, not Armenian Orthodox? 9:46 JK: I have always considered myself a Protestant and my mother considered herself a protestant, my dad probably did not. We went to the Armenian Church but there was no priest. So priest would come in three or four times a year. So maybe we get to church two or three times a year. That’s not a great basis– a foundation. And so we would go, like a lot of Armenian families, to the nearest Protestant Church. So, Baptist church for a while, Methodist church for a while. In fact, I became baptized at Methodist. 10:23 GS: Okay, now like you said this was something a lot of other Armenians did. Would the Armenians tend to conglomerate with each other at Baptist or Methodist Church services? 10:36 JK: I was probably the only Armenian at the Methodist Church that I was aware of. The Baptist Church, there may have been a family or two. Seems to me the Hakimiyans may have gone there. They were Protestants and they may have gone there. No, there was a lot of congregation but it was social rather than religious that I am aware of. 11:00 GS: Okay, um, what other ways did your parents try and make your household Armenian besides just speaking the language? 11:09 JK: Well I do not know if there is anything conscious but obviously the language which is a great deal of the culture and the food, you know? 11:17 GS: What kinds of food would they make? 11:19 JK: Well Armenian food, obviously. They– my mother, my dad did not do any cooking. My mother was a good cook and a great baker and we ate very well primarily because we were poor. I did not realize until I grew up that all the stuff we ate because we were poor is now gourmet food. You know, not much meat, a lot of fruits and vegetables, you know, and all the traditional Armenian cooking and at its best, Near Eastern cooking I think is equal to the best French or Chinese cuisine. I do not think it gets a fair shake, but I am biased. 12:02 GS: Fair enough. Now, after you finished– you finished high school, correct? 12:07 JK: Yes. 12:08 GS: Did you go to college afterwards? 12:10 JK: Yes. 12:10 GS: Where did you go? 12:10 JK: I went to Harper. 12:13 GS: You went to Harper College? 12:14 JK: Yes. 12:14 GS: Wonderful, what was your graduating class, what year? 12:17 JK: Well initially, it would have been (19)56 because I started in (19)52 but I left, hung out, worked went into service and then I came back so then my second graduating class would have been (19)62. 12:33 GS: Okay. Where did you– what branch of the service were you in? 12:37 JK: I was in the air force. 12:38 GS: The air force, during the Korean War I believe? 12:40 JK: Technically but the war was virtually over by the time I got in. Congress says I am a Korean War veteran and who am I to argue with them. I did have the GI Bill when I came back which helped immensely because I lived at home free room and board for my mother and I took care of everything else. 12:59 GS: Were you classmate with George Rejebian? 13:03 JK: No, George is– he is my first cousin if you did not know. His mother is my morakuyr. 13:11 GS: Morakuyr, can you explain a little bit more? 13:12 JK: Morakuyr is my mother’s sister. 13:15 GS: Okay. 13:15 JK: In Armenian, it is nice because when you talk about an uncle or an aunt, if you use the proper Armenian, you know the relationship. 13:22 GS: Morakuyr, I always just said mukur. 13:24 JK: No it is morakuyr. Mother’s sister is what you are saying. 13:28 GS: We always, I think our family we just kind of squish it together we say mukur, like Alice was mukur Alice– 13:34 JK: Okay, okay. But, you know, unlike in English if you say uncle or aunt you do not really know what the relationship is. 13:41 GS: Yeah, that is a good linguistic term. It is useful. 13:44 JK: But, George is, he is five years older than I am. He will be eighty seven in August. 13:52 GS: Yeah, I just interviewed him Monday. 13:55 JK: Okay, I was going to ask you if you got to George, all right. 13:58 GS: What did you study in college? 14:00 JK: I was a History major. 14:03 GS: Very nice to hear. I am myself. Um, so, when did you get married? 14:12 JK: 1962, September 8, I just had to think for a minute. 14:18 GS: So it was after you came back from the service and after you graduated? 14:21 JK: Yes, yeah, I did not meet my wife to be until after yeah, until after– definitely after service. 14:31 GS: How did you meet her? 14:34 JK: I had just come back from a year in Mexico City going to school and I was out on a night in the town and I ran into an old friend and she was with somebody I knew, and there was this other couple and Nancy introduced Annie and I and that was the beginning of the end I guess. And Nancy introduced us several months later a second time. Damn Nancy, and then we started dating and you know one thing led to another and we fell in love. 15:10 GS: Now, Annie is not Armenian, correct? 15:12 JK: Oh, obviously not, no she is English and Irish. 15:14 GS: Now, did you– did your parents ever put any pressure on you to marry an Armenian? 15:21 JK: No, but my mother certainly would have appreciated it, and as I told her, you know if I got out of Binghamton, I got to New York or Philly or Boston where there is a ton of Armenians it could happen you know, but we are not in Armenia, we are in the United States. So the odds are not very high. 15:40 GS: Did you want to marry an Armenian? 15:44 JK: If I had my ̶ sure, you would have– I realize this now, I may not have when I was in my twenties– the more you have in common the easier it is, the odds are better that you are going to have a successful marriage. There are a lot of bumps on the road. I do not care who the hell you are unless you are lying through your teeth. And you know, and they say the more commonality is at the right word you, the chances are that you will make it a little bit easier. We had a lot of problems, obviously most of her personality but because I came from a very different cultural background and my wife did and she quite frankly adapted very, very well or very easily but then our son is blessed– was blessed with two great wonderful magnificent grandmothers and that helped a lot too. 16:38 GS: Of course. Um, tell me about your son, when was he born? 16:43 JK: He was born 1968. 16:46 GS: So not long after you were married? 16:48 JK: November 15. Well, six years. [laughs] 16:51 GS: Not too long. Now, did you– where was he baptized? 16:59 JK: My wife was raised a Roman Catholic and she wanted that, I said fine no problem and the– So he was baptized in a Church that no longer exists I think it was, Oh, God what is the name of it? The Church, the Roman Catholic Church on the circle in Johnson City but it is no longer Roman Catholic Church. It got closed a few years ago and I cannot think the name of it at the moment. 17:25 GS: Oh what can you do? Did you speak Armenian to your son when he was growing up? 17:30 JK: A little bit, not much. 17:32 GS: Did you– why did not you want– did you want to teach him Armenian and it just never materialized or did you make a conscious decision not to, you know, specifically raise him to be bilingual? 17:43 JK: No, it would have been very difficult and I am sure it was mostly laziness because my wife Ann suggested I speak to him in Armenian so he could learn the language but it– a lot of it was laziness. And again I never went to school, I cannot read or write a word of Armenian. So the Armenian I knew was what you learn in the home as a child. So at best, it may have been third or fourth grade level and quite frankly now at eighty-two I am forgetting because I do not use it very well once in a while with my sister but you know it is getting lost, let us put it that way. It was at its best when I was in Mexico City because there is a small Armenian community there and I was able to deal with them in Armenian and my generation quite frankly were trilingual. You know anybody went any education spoke Armenian and Spanish of course and English. So it made it easy for a lazy person like me to rely on the English and the Armenian. 18:49 GS: So, did you, did you want your son to have a sense of his Armenian– of Armenian identity? 18:56 JK: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. 18:58 GS: So how did you ̶ how did you managed to instill that? 19:02 JK: Well, I do not know if I did anything consciously but just the fact that I am pleased or proud, thankful, I guess, that I am product of two cultures because I think– not because it is the Armenian culture but two cultures I think are advantageous. And it was talked about– the genocide obviously– because my mother was a survivor of the genocide, is very much a part of my life, my existence and the fact that the Turkish government for three generations has denied it happened, plus all the lies and the balderdash. So, you know, it was– and he went to the Armenian Church, you know, on occasion. He went to Sunday school there, you know, my mother would talk to him a little bit in Armenian. He was not interested. Kids are not. You know, once you are inundated and then you do not have a choice, but I have been accused of being an Armenian by non-Armenians and I guess part of me is, you know. 20:12 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 20:17 JK: Well if anybody asks, I am an Armenian-American or Armenian– a American of Armenian descent. 20:22 GS: What would your son say to that same question? 20:25 JK: Probably the same thing. 20:26 GS: Probably the same thing? 20:27 JK: Yeah. He is also fond of his English and Irish side, but you know he is also very aware of the fact that he is of Armenian descent and he carries the surname. You know anybody, you know, look at the name says Oh– You are one of those. [laughs] 20:43 GS: So, what was the– how strong was the Armenian community when you were growing up? Did it seem like it was a coherent hold did it have regular meetings? Was there a sense of solidarity? 20:56 JK: Well there was– you are probably aware of this–there were two camps. I am born in (19)34 I think in (19)33 unfortunately someone who is a member of the Tashnag camp, or party, killed a Bishop in New York City in the Church– 21:15 GS: Let us pause on this, because I wanna get a better graph on this. Can you explain for us what, who the Tashnags are? 21:22 JK: Well the Tashnags are a late nineteenth century political party– Armenian political party as are the Hunchaks. They were– both had socialist roots. I do not really know the early differences. I am not that well versed but they were I think kind of friendly until (19)33 when this gentleman killed the Armenian bishop and that created a split among the Armenians. The Tashnags and the Hunchaks, or the pro-Tashnags and the pro-Hunchaks, and it was kind of ridiculous since were are such a small tribe but the sad thing is, that is what is still in existence since today ̶ 22:10 GS: Even in this community? 22:13 JK: It is weakened because well, the old timers are gone and the young timers, the kids they are (19)80s and (19)90s, so it is kind of fading but it was there and I ran into it everywhere I went. You know, I did not run into it in Mexico but that was a very small community. 22:34 GS: Where did the Ramgavars fit into this? 22:37 JK: That is a third political party I do not know much about them, and seems to me there is another one that I– whose name I cannot think of, but the Hunchaks and the Tashnags are all we– all we heard about here and my parents, thank God, were not political, although my father I think would have probably considered himself a– drawing a blank– not a Tashnag– Hunchaks. But I was probably the only kid who was friends with other kids the other young kids, ten, fifteen years old on both sides, because there was no social interaction. 23:18 GS: Really? 23:18 JK: They were split, they had– I did not see this obviously, but I was told about it–t hey had fights in the Church, they were literally thrown out, “the Tashnag side,” quote-unquote. You know and it was very, very– 23:33 GS: Expelled or just like physically thrown out one time? 23:35 JK: Expelled and physically thrown out. 23:38 GS: Wow, so there was a period of time when both parties would attend the Church but after that split it was only people who were Hunchaks? 23:48 JK: Yeah, and the Hunchaks were primarily–this is probably too simplistic but pro-Russian, pro-Soviet Union because they had allowed a small Armenia to exist. The Armenia’s Soviet Social Republic and the Tashnags were more for free independent Armenian and they were more anti-Soviet, anti-communist, anti-Russian. 24:22 GS: They both hated Turkey? 24:23 JK: I am sorry? 24:24 GS: But they both hated Turkey? 24:25 JK: Oh, yes, obviously after the genocide there was no question about that but to stress, it was the Ottoman Turkish Empire, Modern day Turkey which is only a small fraction of the old Empire. 24:39 GS: Of course. 24:40 JK: But, so, you know, it is and I encounter this every place I went, you know, in the states and it was unfortunate. And I tried when I was seventeen, eighteen, nineteen to try to bring the youth together through the church from the two sides. 25:01 GS: How did you try to do that? 25:03 JK: Well, we had some kind of a youth group that I was a member of and I do not really remember what we called ourselves and I brought up the fact that it would be nice if we could get the teenagers from the other side with us and vice versa and we could have done it but the adults at the church had their rules and regulations. You had to do this way, that way and the other way. And what they were asking for was capitulation, surrender from the other side and that’s not how you bring people together. And I knew that my friends over there would say, hell no, you know I just wanted to bring us together socially, you know, culturally, call it what you will. 25:46 GS: Did you find that the divide had settled or lessened when you came back from the army, the air force rather? 25:53 JK: Air force, shame on you! No, not really. No, it was still there and– 26:00 GS: But it is relatively gone today you said. 26:02 JK: I think so; I do not think anybody thinks much about it. There is still a separation but some of the other side quote-unquote “the Tashnags” will come to the church occasionally. You know, but they are now, they are old people, they are (19)70s and (19)80s and (19)90s. The youngsters obviously the parents are all gone, but you know there is probably some ill will still. I would n0t be surprised. 26:30 GS: How do you– so you said that this kind of exists in all Armenian communities that you have been to? 26:38 JK: That I have heard of or read about, yes. Overseas and here. 26:41 GS: So do you think that the Armenian diaspora is sort of a coherent whole or do you think that there are several this different Diasporas in each community that they exist? 26:53 JK: Well, I cannot speak with authority but I am guessing there are various factions, various groups, you know, I am sure it is lessening but, it is still there a great story– I had an uncle who was on the Parish council at St. Peter in Watervliet which is Troy, New York. And the Tashnags’ side, to use that term Antelias, the Hunchaks’ side adheres– follows Etchmiazdin and the other group, the other side is Antelias in Lebanon they had a fire– 27:34 GS: These are religious designation, yes? 27:37 JK: Well, Antelias is a community in Lebanon ̶ 27:40 GS: Oh okay. 27:41 JK: And Etchmiadzin is outside of Yerevan and it is like the Vatican of the Armenian Church, the Orthodox Church… 27:47 GS: That was what my church was, an Etchmiadzin ̶ 27:50 JK: Yeah, that is you know– and our Catholicos is there, the Armenian Catholicos and he is like a Pope. 28:01 GS: Okay, so as you were saying. 28:02 JK: Okay, meanwhile back at the range– where the hell was I? GS: The Etchmiadzin – 28:06 JK: The Etchmiadzin where the Catholicos is the head of the Armenian Church. He is the first among the equals because there is a Catholicos in Antelias also but he is–well they are supposed to be equal but Etchmiadzin is the–is like our Pope. The only differences, really is that he is not infallible in matters dealing with the church whereas the Pope is considered infallible in dealings with the Roman Catholic Church. 28:32 GS: That was actually how the Bishop of Rome first asserted his authority over the rest of the bishoprics he said “I am the first among equals.” 28:42 JK: Ah, okay, I do not think I knew that. 28:44 GS: Yeah, it is interesting that we have the Catholicos outside Yerevan use the same term. 28:50 JK: Yeah, well I know if he does officially but that’s the way it works out. But any way, Okay, the Antelias, the Tashnag church burns down. Now these people grew up together, so they know each other, and the St. Peters said well you can use our church in the interim, you know, we will make adjustments and arrangements and this went on for a while and everybody was getting along quite well and they had more manpower, more people, and they also realized if they merged and joined, they would have more people and more money and both Parish Councils thought this was a great idea and they were willing to move on in and become one church until it went up to the bishops and the archbishops on both sides who absolutely no way in the blazes would tolerate this– 29:42 GS: And this is the Binghamton Parish Council? 29:44 JK: No, no. This is Troy. Troy, New York. 29:45 GS: This is Troy, New York. 29:46 JK: Troy, New York. No, we have only had one church here. But up there, there was a large Armenian community, at least three or four thousand. So they had two churches. And they tried very hard to come together– my generation– and the bishops and the archbishops on both sides would not hear of it. And I call that ego, power, greed but anyway that’s life. 30:10 GS: Do you think the Armenian community in Binghamton has gotten stronger or weaker? 30:15 JK: Weaker. It is very small. The immigrants are– almost all gone. The only one I can think of is Hagop’s mother and she is in her nineties and her minds is gone. Hagop [Jack] Injajigian you probably, Jack ̶ 30:30 GS: Yeah, I actually interviewed him as well. 30:32 JK: Okay, he– nice, nice, nice young man. Yeah, so you know, it is the community is I think slowly dying out as is the church. And I am not a church goer so I am– I plead guilty. 30:50 GS: All right, that is about all the question I had. Thank you very much for your time. 30:56 JK: Okay! (End of Interview I) Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 11 February 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton University, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview II) 30:57 AD: Okay, so today, today is February 11, 2017, and I am here with Jerald Kalayjian. We will go ahead and talk about your family history, so can you give me your full name just for the record? 31:24 JK: In English it is Jerald Michael Kalayjian. In Armenian, it is Jirayr Michael Kalayjian. 31:35 AD: Okay, so who gave you the name? 31:38 JK: The American name came from my sisters when I started school. 31:43 AD: But originally, your mom or your dad? 31:47 JK: No, my mother named me Jirayr, well they agreed which was rare but they named me Jirayr. 31:54 AD: So, when were you born? 31:57 JK: April 4, 1934. 32:00 AD: And where were you born? 32:03 JK: Here in Binghamton. It what was then City Hospital. 32:07 AD: So, okay. Are you the first generation Armenian, uh, in your family? 32:14 JK: Yes, my parents were immigrants. 32:16 AD: Okay, so when did they come? Do you know? 32:19 JK: My father came in June of 1913. He came to avoid conscription. The young Turks had opened up military to non-Muslims, non-Turks and he was not interested and he came over, I do not know how long a period he was planning on staying. He came to avoid the draft and then he was going to go back. There was nothing to go back to after 1915. So he never went back after the Armenian Genocide. My mother would have never come here. A very comfortable middle class existence in the Sivas/Sebastia in, uh, in modern day Turkey, and because of the genocide, again she was– she had nothing; everything was gone and she was fortunate enough to get to this country and she came in January of 1921, and her comment was I was hungry for over five years and she ate her weight to, she was a little thing, but she ate her weight to a hundred and forty some pounds. So I guess she was a butterball as a young woman but then she lost and got back to her normal weight. [laughs] 33:33 AD: So, how did she make it? How did she, you know– 33:39 JK: Get here? 33:40 AD: What I mean how did she survive the genocide because she was there when it was happening? 33:45 JK: She lived through it. I always tried to tell her it was because she was young and strong. I do not mean physically; intestinal fortitude– a very strong woman– and luck. And as much as I have some strong negative feelings about the Turkish government to this day, there were, lack of a better word, righteous Turks, righteous Kurds who helped the survivors. And I am sure most of the survivors without help would not have made it. And to put this in context, if you were caught helping an Armenian as a Turk or a Kurd, you would have been killed and your home would have been burned to the ground. So, you know the people who helped were really risking everything. 34:40 AD: Yeah, but, you know, they were living together, let us say their neighborhood, right, they were living together. So then the order came, how can your turn back on your neighbor, your friend of how many years right? 34:58 JK: Because your life is on the line and that is scary. 35:03 AD: Yeah but I also heard stories that people felt, you know, how cannot I help my friend. 35:13 JK: I am sure some of that happened. I know that my mother told me that Turkish friends of her father, my grandfather, came to him and said, you know we are hearing rumors we do not know what but some bad stuff is coming down the road. There is going to be some trouble, some problems, why do not you become a closet Christian, and then your home and your business and your life and your family will go on like nothing is happened. And I would have– being me would have said that sounds very good. He said, no I cannot do that. He paid with his life. I am not sure if it was a smart move. I do not think so. 35:52 AD: So, did your mom– so your father does not have an experience of this– 35:59 JK: No, his family was killed or was butchered, murdered, whatever you want to call it, but he was in this country. Most of them were in the Ottoman Empire. 36:08 AD: Okay, so let me talk to you about your father first, so, the family, his family felt– he was from Sebastia as well? 36:21 JK: No, no he was from Averek which is now called Develi. And it is a city when we were there twenty years ago, thirty to thirtyfive thousand, it is south of Kayseri– the city of Kayseri. 36:33 AD: Okay, okay the city of Kayseri. So, he just ran away, he did not want to stay and– 36:45 JK: He wanted to avoid conscription into the Turkish Army. 36:47 AD: Okay. So, was he the only one run–? 36:52 JK: From his family? 36:53 AD: From his family. 36:55 JK: Uh, he had a first cousin who was here before him. Uh, another Kalayjian, it was his mother’s brother’s child. My grandmother, Kalayjian married my grandfather Kalayjian from another– I do not know from where he came or what country, pardon me, what city he came from. So two Kalayjians got married which is interesting. I would love to know more about it, but he had come to this country before. There are few cousins here but I– the only one I knew was his cousin George who, when I knew him, lived in Philadelphia. 37:40 AD: Okay. 37:41 JK: And he was another fine oud player like my father. 37:44 AD: Oh, really? 37:47 JK: Oh, yeah, yeah. Good, really. I am not being biased. Excellent musician, not a great father or a great husband but an, an excellent, excellent musician. He played from here. You know he was just– I have his old oud. 38:02 AD: Do you have any recordings? 38:07 JK: Uh, yes but I have not played them, so I do not know how good or bad they are. 38:13 AD: Yeah! 38:14 JK: I have them though. I have some tapes and I have some seventy-eight rpms. 38:20 AD: Wow! Yeah. So, that is interesting. So, he– so and then he found out that his family was killed during the massacre. 38:32 JK: Yeah. I do not know if he knew specifics but obviously the Genocide made headlines in Europe and in North America and the Armenian community would have known about it– certainly–that they were being slaughtered, the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. So, I say there was no reason for him to go back. And if he had gone back, he would have been persona non grata because some Armenians did go back and, you know, they realized they were in the wrong place. 39:09 AD: Yeah. 39:10 JK: Extreme Turkish nationalism. 39:12 AD: Oh, yes. So, did he come directly to US or did he–like how did he come here? Did he go anywhere else? 39:22 JK: He took–I got to be careful. He got to Konya, took a train from Konya to the coast but I do not know where, got on a boat and came to Ellis Island. 39:36 AD: Okay, so, he directly came to US. 39:39 JK: As far as I know. 39:40 AD: Okay. 39:41 JK: Unfortunately, I cannot track him because he came under somebody else’s papers. 39:49 AD: Oh! 39:49 JK: So, he was one of those illegal immigrants [laughs], and so there is no records of him– his name, I do not know what who he–it was a friend and they obviously look something alike because short dark, stocky [laughs] foreign looking– but he came in somebody else’s papers which makes me think he was very close to I think the age was twenty when they started conscripting, you would know better than I, and he came here in June. He would have turned twenty, if we have the right information, in April, no pardon me, no I guess it would have been, oh! June or July. So he came here right around his birthday. 40:42 AD: I see. And then he moved to Binghamton because– 40:47 JK: No, he first went to Detroit and worked at Ford for a short time. His cousin George was in Troy, New York at that time. And a cousin died–this is all he ever told me–and he left Ford in Detroit came to Troy for the funeral and stayed. And right at that time Mr. Ford cut the work day and the work week and started paying his employees five dollars a day which was huge money back then. 41:24 AD: Okay. 41:25 JK: All the– his peers thought Mr. Ford had lost his head but what he was doing was good business. One, he had almost a hundred percent turnover and he wanted to keep his employees. They lasted less than a year. And he wanted his employees to buy Ford automobiles. So he increased the pay, he cut the work week and it was almost a nirvana but my father stayed in Troy his cousin, George, was running a coffee house which you should understand– 42:00 AD: Yeah. 42:01 JK: And he stayed there worked with them and I am sure they both played the oud there, you know, which I would have loved to have heard and he was in– uh– he was there for a number of years and then at some point they went to Philly, I do not know when they went to Philadelphia, both of them. 42:17 AD: Both of them– 42:18 JK: Moved to Philadelphia from Troy, New York. And unfortunately he met my mother in Philadelphia. 42:23 AD: Unfortunately? [laughs] 42:29 JK: Unfortunately, yes. He should have stayed a single man. You know, he was not husband, father, family material. He really was not. And when I told him that when he was in his eighties, he got mad at me, I am telling him the truth [laughs] but they met in Philadelphia. My mother was, unfortunately, a widow with two little girls. 42:55 AD: Okay. 42:57 JK: And she thought they needed a father, and my dad was, um, personable smooth charming. He was an entertainer, you know, [coughs]. And she bought his song and dance and she married him. 43:17 AD: What was his name? 43:19 JK: He was Avak Kalayjian. He became a citizen. He worshiped his first cousin who was few years older, and he– I do not know if he was George in Armenian, but he used George. So when my father became a citizen, he became George Avak Kalayjian. He named himself after his first cousin. 43:44 AD: Okay. 43:46 JK: And they moved to Binghamton in, they got married in (19)31 and they moved to Binghamton– my mother and my father and my two sisters–in (19)32, I think, and then I came along in (19)34. 44:04 AD: So, when– what did he do? What was his job before he came? 44:08 JK: I do not know what he did before he came here. When he came here, I think he learned the trade– or –profession whatever you call it in Philadelphia he was a pressor, pressor of clothes in a dry cleaner. And he had a job here, you may have heard the name of the Kradjian locally, Uncle Arsham and Uncle Kegham, not related but they are my parent’s generation, and they were–my American friends thought I had a couple of hundred of uncles and aunts. I only had one uncle and aunt but Uncle Arsham and Uncle Kegham offered him a job if he moved to Binghamton. My mother’s sister was here and her husband, and so they moved to Binghamton in thirty-two. He wanted to come here, my mother did because Philadelphia was the big city and this was, I am translating here but this was like the boondocks [laughs] Binghamton, you know a small town, sleepy, out of touch but they came here in thirty-two and we have been here ever since basically. 45:17 AD: Okay, so he worked for that– 45:21 JK: He worked for Bell and Baylor Dry Cleaners back in the (19)30s and (19)40s. 45:28 AD: Okay. Then, did he change his job or he continued? 45:32 JK: No, he worked in other places, doing the same thing. 45:35 AD: Doing the same thing! Okay, and then, how about your mother? But I need to go back to her story back in Sivas, so her family faced– so is she– who survived in her family? 45:56 JK: She, and a– her younger sister, two years younger than her. 46:01 AD: And how did they survive? Where did they go? 46:04 JK: Well, they were put on the road in the spring of (19)20, pardon me, (19)15. I want to be careful, May or June I am thinking– I am trying to remember what she has told me or what I have read over the years–and they were on the road and I used to hear about her principal, she worshiped her principal Mary Grapheme, and I did not know that until I grew up and did some reading and research that she was truly historical figure. She was the principal of the American Missionary Schools in Sivas/Sebastia. And when the Turkish government, the Ottoman Turkish government said all the Armenians are hitting the road we were relocating them to a safer place which was the deserts of Syria–Dier ez-Zor. She did not want her kids to go and she fought with the government and she lost and she said I am going with them and they said no you are not and she said yes I am. And she went on– went with the Armenians as far as Malatya and at that point the Turkish army put their foot down, and no you are not going any further. So they sent her back to Sebastia or Sivas. And she died and she is buried there. I wish I had known that. If a grave site is available I would have liked to have visited when we were there but she’s in many things if you read about the Genocide, the famous blue book that the English government put out in (19)16, she is one of the major civilian people that are– that is in it. 48:00 AD: Yeah. 48:03 JK: For some reason my grandfather was not happy with the Armenian schools. So he pulled his kids out and he sent them to the American Missionary Schools. The why, the where for, I do not know, and you know this of course there was no public education. So if anybody got to go to school, it was a private school and it also meant that you had a couple of dollars, a little bit of money because if you did not have any money, you obviously could not pay for the children’s education. And the thing I find fascinating about my grandfather, besides that foolish decision he made to not be a closet Christian, although I do– I have heard tales where people became closet Christians and became Muslims, they converted and they were killed anyway later because they were not trusted. So, you know, who knows but anyway, my grandfather wanted to send all of his children to college, unusual, the boys also the girls– 49:11 AD: Wow! 49:12 JK: And he– for in education at least he had to be way, way out of his time. 49:18 AD: Yes. 49:19 JK: But this was his goal. This is what he wanted to do. Obviously my mother’s education was interrupted by the genocide. So from Malatya, I am not sure exactly where they went but I know they ended up in Antep, Gazi Antep for a while and this is all on foot. Then they ended up in Halab [Halep in Turkish], Aleppo Syria today and then Beirut. 49:46 AD: That was what I was thinking. 49:48 JK: Yeah, and they were in orphanage or orphanage-like certainly in Beirut, I think in Hallab, and perhaps even in Antep but I am not sure my mother unfortunately and I have talked to other people the women especially, but even some of the men, there is no time frame, day, month, year, you know it is all one jumble. Nobody can tell you I was here the summer of (19)15 and I was here the winter of (19)16, you know, we do not know. She was kidnapped once. I cannot remember if it was a Kurd or an Arab now, because she had some interactions with both and my great grandmother who was still alive at this point, they were stopped in a village or a small town and she went looking for her Siranoosh, my mother, walking the streets yelling her name, and would you believe my mother heard her– 51:06 AD: Wow! 51:06 JK: And responded, the other side of the wall [laughs] and my grandmother found her and– pardon me, my great grandmother, this would be my grandfather’s mother and she convinced the people that she would take care of Siranoosh. They wanted to– she was sick at the time, they wanted to make her better and marry her after their son, and that she would, you know, take care of her, make her better and bring her back. And they bought her story and she took my mother and you know they were together again. It is a bloody miracle. [laughs] 51:48 AD: Oh My God, yes it is. 51:49 JK: You know, but I do not know one-time grandmother– great grandmother– my great grandmother had to go to the bathroom and she had somebody to keep an eye on my mother and her sister. She went to the bathroom, couple minutes away behind a tree or bush, who knows, came back and my mother’s gone. Somebody had taken her and again she found her. You know, it is– 52:22 AD: Very interesting! 52:23 JK: You know, my mother saw people, shot, killed like being stabbed, drowned. They were going along the Murat ̶ , Murat river, for quite a while and some of her stories were horrendous just what she saw, you know, and for no reason other that they were not Turks, they were not Muslims, you know, this extreme nationalism which overtook the young Turks unfortunately, but you know they got to Beirut, now they were relatively safe and just my mother and her younger sister are left and her step-mother. My grandmother died shortly after the birth of her fifth child, yeah, and my great grandmother said after a few years, I cannot take care of these kids, I am getting old; you gotta get a wife to my grandfather. So, he saw the logic in this as you know the men would have had nothing to do, nothing to do with raising the children. 53:37 AD: Yeah. 53:39 JK: And, so he remarried and I just recently found out that my step-grandmother had just given birth, before, just before the march when they had to leave Sebastia/Sivas. I knew she had a baby boy I did not realize it was so soon. So, she was maybe a week from giving birth and that child again died on the march, only a couple of weeks old– 54:18 AD: Of course. 54:19 JK: So, anyway, they were in the nursing home– they were in the [laughs] I am sorry, in Beirut in the–Aman aman aman [Oh my, oh my, oh my in Armenian and Turkish] ̶ distracted–you are reaching for a word and you cannot come up with it– they were in the– 54:38 AD: Orphanage– 54:39 JK: Orphanage, thank you, thank you thank you. They were in the orphanage and my step-grandmother had a brother in America, in Philadelphia, and the group at this point; it was my step-grandmother, her sister, my mother, my morakuyr, my mother’s sister Dikranouhi and another woman who was destined to be Mr. Jazvejian in Philadelphian–destined to be his wife. So he arranged to bring the five of them to this country. Now, he did not have any money but the way that was done was that you would beg, borrow or steal the money to bring them over. They are all going to get married obviously and that man who married the women would pay for the journey. So he paid the money back to my uncle Mr. Jazvejian and he would return the money to whoever he had borrowed from. So, he, make a long story short, he brought over four of them. My aunt could not leave Beirut because she had an eye problem. I always get trachoma and glaucoma mixed up, but one of them that would keep you out and the other one you could come in. The one would keep you out. So, she could not come in to Beirut and she stayed there for eight years and my mother and her husband in Philadelphia supported her for that time. They sent I do not know how much but ten or twenty or thirty bucks a month to Beirut so that she could live and do whatever she did. 56:21 AD: So, she stayed alone over there, and everybody left? She stayed there. 56:25 JK: Well, with other Armenians but not family. 56:30 AD: Not family. Huh! 56:31 JK: Yeah, not family. And she was there for eight years and finally my mom’s first husband tried to adopt her, you may or may not know this but in (19)23 and (19)24, (19)20-(19)23 and (19)24 the American government basically slammed the gate shut on immigration. They only wanted North Western European stock basically. They did not want Southern Europeans, they did not want Eastern Europeans, they did not want Mediterranean types, they did not want Near Easterners, and they did not want far Easterners. So it became very difficult to get into this country. So he tried to adopt her and he could not do that. And finally what they did is she could come Havana, Cuba. And they found somebody here in Binghamton. And my uncle was admittedly a very good looking man and a successful businessman. He was a shoe repair person but he was one of the old-timers he could make a shoe from scratch, you know, he was good, he was gifted and if you did not believe me, you could ask him, he would tell you [laughs], but he went to Havana, married my aunt and they came back to this country. And that was how she got here. She got here in 1929, is that right. Yeah. (19)28, (19)29 somewhere near. 58:00 AD: Okay. 58:00 JK: Oh, so that was how they got to this country. And my step-grandmother remarried to a wonderful man and she had three kids and one of them is still around, Uncle Russ is [laughs] four years older than me. 58:15 AD: They came here too? 58:18 JK: They are in Troy. It is not a blood relationship but it is, you know, my– the only grandparents I had, because two of my grandparents died of natural causes and the other two were killed in the genocide. So I did not have any grandparents except for my step-grandparents in Troy. 58:46 AD: Wow! So, so your mother left Beirut, how old was she then? She was so young right? 58:54 JK: As far as we have determined she was born in 1902. So she was nineteen or approaching nineteen when she came here. 59:06 AD: Okay so where did– so she got married– 59:10 JK: In Philadelphian 1921, February 21. 59:13 AD: Okay, so she arrived and then she met your father over there? 59:20 JK: No, no, no, no Manoushag and Berjouhi’s father. 59:23 AD: Oh, wait. So, your mother was married before? 59:27 JK: Yes. 59:28 AD: So, where did she marry the first time? 59:30 JK: That was in Philadelphia in February 1921. 59:34 AD: What happened to that man? 59:36 JK: He, unfortunately [coughs], excuse me, died of mastoiditis I think in 1929 and of course twenty years later a couple shots of penicillin, and it would have been– 59:49 AD: I know. 59:50 JK: You know, but that is life. He was by all accounts a good man. My mother said she had eight wonderful years in Philadelphia after the genocide she was, you know, very happy, good family. She was comfortable had more food than she could eat and she after being hungry for over five years, I can understand that if she said they never got meat, the orphans, but the staff would get meat and you could smell the meet cooking but they could not get it. They never got it. This is in Beirut, you know. That was when things were good, for getting on the road, you know, her grandmother, my mother’s grandmother now would swallow the gold and when she had a bowl movement, she would pick the gold out and swallow it again because they were– they had little money when they started, but they were being robbed, you know and they were being sold things at outrageous prices when they could do that. They were kept, really kept, deliberately from food and water. The couple instances where they had bought water in probably the goat skin or in sheep skin bag and the– they were not the army– uh, gendarme, that is French though it is– 1:01:23 AD: Gendarme. 1:01:24 JK: Gendarme, there you go. Gendarme– would come along with a sword or a dagger or something and just slit the bags and the water would be dispersed on the floor, on the ground so they could not be drunk, but my mother told us a great deal. I wish I could remember it all. My father never told us a thing. I did not know anything about his family until the last time I talked to him before he died. I found out he was one of six or seven kids, did not know that. Did not know anything about his family, nothing. 1:02:03 AD: So, after her first husband died, she married your dad– 1:02:10 JK: Two years later, she married my father. 1:02:12 AD: And then she had two children. 1:02:14 JK: She had two daughters, two little girls. 1:02:17 AD: And, what happened to them? 1:02:20 JK: Well, we became a family. We were raised as brothers and sisters; never half-brother, half-sister. 1:02:26 AD: So, how many kids your mom had with your dad? 1:02:30 JK: Just me. 1:02:32 AD: Just you? 1:02:33 JK: Yeah. 1:02:33 AD: Oh, so the sister I met was from the– 1:02:37 JK: First husband; same mother, separate fathers. 1:02:40 AD: Oh, so you were the only child! 1:02:42 JK: Yes, and only because it was a horrible marriage and my mother foolishly thought well maybe if he has a child of his own, you know because they are his step-daughters, if he has a child of his own it will be different. It was not to be– 1:03:01 AD: Was he like having other women, what was– 1:03:07 JK: No, he lived like a single man. Well I do not know if he had other woman, I– possible, I do not know. But he was abusive verbally. I think he could live with that. He was physically abusive. 1:03:24 AD: Oh! To all of you or just your mom? 1:03:26 JK: To my mom, I do not think much to my sisters. No, he probably only– he beat me once, you know, and he loved me in his own way, you know, he until the day died he always kissed me, hello and good-bye on the cheek and I hated it because he was a wet sloppy kisser. [laughs] 1:03:52 AD: But you know people, males kiss each other in Turkey. 1:03:58 JK: Oh, yes, no I had no problem with that, I am a toucher, I am a hugger, I am a kisser. I told my son when he was a little person I said until I die I will hug you and I said if you do not like you– tough get used to it [laughs] and we still hug. He kisses me more than I kiss him. But, yeah, we hug every time we see each other. 1:04:20 AD: Because the Western culture you just shake hands, there is no hugging, kissing. 1:04:26 JK: Yeah, I know. We are getting a little better in this country, a little better. 1:04:30 AD: Yeah, okay, so he just was not around as a dad, husband? 1:04:36 JK: Well, he was– How can I put this? A couple of times I have seen him under the influence of alcohol. When he was drinking, he was the sweetest, gentlest, nicest man. And I told him that, I said you should be drunk all the time. I was, you know, maybe a teenage, ten, twelve, fourteen something like that. He was a wonderful person and that was the real him because I know alcohol does away with the inhibitions and who you are comes out. Many people go the other way; their obnoxious, arrogant SOBs when they are drinking or drunk. But he was, uh, who knows, you know, I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, he was not that nice and he was not as my mother said, I cannot say he was lazy, he was hard-working. He was a gambler, you know. This is the depression when everybody, most everybody is poor, and he might only be gambling a couple of bucks a week but that was an enormous amount of money when you were maybe working for five or six or seven dollars a week. He gambled. My mother was amazing. She could save money out of a penny. So thanks to her we were able to live. You know, there is times now when I remember– realize, occasionally, I am a little kid now, she would not eat–no I am not hungry and sure she was hungry but if she ate there was not enough food for the rest of us. So she did not eat so that we had something to eat. You know, her husband and her children. So we were poor. Thank God, we have come a long ways from that. 1:06:34 AD: Yeah, so your mom did not work? 1:06:38 JK: Not initially. I think it was during the World War II she finally went to work. I was in school and I was, I guess a fairly responsible, yeah I had to grow up faster than a lot of kids. And we grew up faster back then than today. Today’s kids are cuddled until they are thirty or forty [laughs], at least in this country but so she went to work. She worked in a bakery. She worked in a plant that made clothing for the war effort, for the military. She worked in two or three ports in the hospital in the kitchen I think. She did several things. 1:07:29 AD: So, what was the language in your household when you were growing up? 1:07:33 JK: I mean in first, my parents spoke Turkish, unfortunately when they wanted to keep us in the dark. Because I could have learned the third language just as easily as a second language. So when they were speaking Turkish we knew it was something they considered personal, private was none our business. [laughs] You know, so, there were three languages because my sisters are quite a bit older and they were fluent in English. My parents were trilingual but my mother’s English was– got pretty good because she worked outside the home but she refused promotion at work because she would say you know Armenian; in Armenian you say it, you can spell it, she said that does not work in English. I would say no mom English is not a phonetic language, you know and if she wrote something, if you read it out loud, you know exactly what she said but if you did read it out lout, what is this, her spelling was awful. She never went to school in this country. 1:08:34 AD: Turkish also is phonetic language, so she was fluent in two languages that they both are– 1:08:42 JK: And English must be horrible for a non-English speaking person. And my father, his English was not good because he worked too much with Armenians. So he could speak Armenian or Turkish, he did not have to speak English, but yeah once I remember shortly before he died I do not know what it was but he picked up the newspaper and he read a paragraph to me in English, and I said God that is good! Very little accent, I understood every word perfectly, I said I am surprised dad, you know; “what good is this” he said I did not understand a word, “I do not know what I read”. I said– he regretted it later and as he is an old man he said I should have learned English and it was stupid but, you know, that is– sixty years too late. 1:09:31 AD: So, your first language was Armenian? 1:09:36 JK: Probably. Well, my sisters were speaking English and Armenian to me. Because they were eleven and twelve years older than I am. 1:09:45 AD: Okay, so but when you went to school? 1:09:50 JK: I was bilingual. 1:09:52 AD: English took over then? 1:09:54 JK: Even before, because I was– at two or three I would have been outside playing and my American friends all spoke English, you know, so– 1:10:02 AD: You did not have Armenian friends? 1:10:03 JK: Not in the neighborhood, no. Not where I lived. You know, within half a mile or a mile maybe but when you are little kid you do not travel that far. 1:10:15 AD: No, no. 1:10:15 JK: You know, get to be eight or ten years old, then yes you do. 1:10:19 AD: Okay, so were– did you have Armenian friends? 1:10:28 JK: Oh, yes. And they are almost all gone. They are almost all dead. 1:10:30 AD: But you did not just have Armenian friends; you had like American friends and– 1:10:35 JK: Oh, yes. 1:10:37 AD: So, did you know what was Armenian when you were growing up? 1:10:43 JK: Yes, I think so. I am not sure how but just the fact that there is an Armenian community. There is some place to go almost every weekend, you know, and because my father was the fine oud player and entertainer, we were invited everywhere [laughs] because they wanted him come with his oud, of course. 1:11:07 AD: Okay, what kind of music was he playing? 1:11:11 JK: Armenian, Turkish, you know, and I remember I was asked once, this is out of context but, what school was he a Turkish oud player or Arab oud player; and– or the Arab school or the Turkish school. I do not know if I know the difference but I said well, I am assuming Turkish since he grew up in the Ottoman Empire, and you know, modern day Turkey, and he was good. He was very good. I remember once George ̶ who was little younger than me was a fine oud player from Philadelphia and he made the oud a respectable solo instrument which was really great. And he was well educated and he came here to Harpur. This is gotta be in the seventies probably and coincidence my dad and I were both there separately and I saw him and I said what did you think of this guy, and he said I knew his father in Philadelphia, he said he is fine technician, he– but he lacks soul. 1:12:29 AD: Yeah, well that is what makes the music great right. I bet he was playing like classical Turkish music because like really the oud [ud in Turkish, short-neck lute-type, pear-shaped stringed instrument] players– they call them oudee [udi in Turkish], like the one who plays oud like oudee Arak for example. 1:12:54 JK: Because, you know, a lot of folk music, and he played some odds; for the ladies he would play polka’s, so the ladies could dance the polka, now obviously that is not Turkish or Armenian [laughs], but primarily Armenian-Turkish music. 1:13:12 AD: Yeah, was he singing as well, or just playing? 1:13:17 JK: Yes, no he also sang, he was a heavy smoker, and I never, to this day I do not really like Near Eastern singing because, there is usually the nasal quality that I do not care for. He did not have a bad voice but it was that, that cigarette voice which I do not really–it was passable. He sang better than I do but that is not saying much, [laughs] 1:13:45 AD: Yeah. Yeah, no the singing is different in that part of the world. 1:13:51 JK: There are some good voices. I have heard some but it is, you know. 1:13:53 AD: It is not the voice the way they sing, you know the performance, it is like it is just different. It certainly is different. So, your mother was not a happy woman then? 1:14:40 JK: With my father no. She was unhappy for, they got married in (19)31, for nineteen years she was unhappy. In 1950, my father left and my mother and I were very happy. 1:14:27 AD: Oh, he left? Where did he go? 1:14:29 JK: He went back out to Detroit. A lot of Avereks were there; people that he knew. Maybe, who knows, maybe even distant relatives. I do not know. And he went to Detroit, he was out there for about seven or eight years and he came back to Binghamton. 1:14:48 AD: And moved in with you? 1:14:50 JK: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 1:14:52 AD: Did they divorce? 1:14:52 JK: Much later, I got my mother a divorce. I pushed her to get a divorce. I thought it would give her peace of mind, and I was wrong because divorce is not part of the culture. You are married to your spouse– 1:15:11 AD: For that generation I think– 1:15:14 JK: Until the end. And I thought what would help them she gets divorced, and so I pushed it and she divorced my father in the late sixties I would say. I do not remember exactly after I came back from Buffalo; so (19)68, (19)69, (19)70, somewhere in there. And it did not make any difference, and my father in his head was married until the day he died. And of course he did not think– he thought he was a good father and a good husband. 1:15:45 AD: So, where did he live when he came back? 1:15:47 JK: He had a little apartment on Loral, Loral? Loral Avenue. 1:15:52 AD: I mean did they see each other or? 1:15:57 JK: They may have accidentally at church. Did they communicate, did they talk? No. 1:16:03 AD: No? 1:16:03 JK: No. They were not very friendly. And I understand why? [laughs] 1:16:09 AD: So, who died first? 1:16:11 JK: My father. 1:16:12 AD: What did he die from? 1:16:14 JK: He died bare heart. He had a massive, massive heart attack when he was about seventy, he had been smoking for sixty years. He was a heavy smoker; at least a pack a day when he was playing and partying, three, four, five packs. And they said, you know, you gotta stop smoking or you are a dead man, and I thought he is not going to stop. He stopped. 1:16:44 AD: Oh! 1:16:44 JK: He stopped, took him two or three years to get over it, at least. And then he lived to be, he died in (19)77, I think, we think he was born in 1893. So he was eighty-four years old, you know– 1:17:06 AD: When he died. 1:17:08 JK: He said if I had taken a better care of myself, said I had lived to be a hundred, he said I was not very smart [laughs]. 1:17:14 AD: How about your mother? 1:17:16 JK: She lived to be, we think she was born in 1902 and she lived to be ninety. She died in 1992. And I should qualify this age business, as my mother– women especially did not know when they were born. And birthday in the Armenian culture, I am told, not important. Saints’ Day is more important, your Saints’ Day than your birthday. And my mother said, you know– everything was in the family bible; births, deaths, marriages in the home but was not important. All she knew was each of the two kids were two years apart. You know, is that twenty-one months, is that eighteen months, is that twenty-six months, you know but they did not when they were born and I tried to figure it out and she had not hit puberty when the genocide started. And of course I am thinking here in the States I am saying okay, puberty is twelve, thirteen. So she must have been eleven. She was born in 1904. Well later as I got a little older, a little smarter, little more aware I realized, well puberty is coming earlier and earlier and it would have been later a hundred years, a hundred ten years ago and it is in the old world different diet, different health care, so we decided, probably she was probably more like thirteen rather than eleven, making it (19)02 and all the paperwork we could get, records from my– step-grandmother who had some stuff, she brought them as her daughter which they were in a sense– but she was not old enough to be their mother really, you know, she was, let us say ten years older that was not the same thing. And there were different dates and 1902 made the most sense, it could be 1901, you know, my father claimed he knew his birth date. The men seemed to but something the Armenian men seemed to do and I do not understand it. They made themselves, not all of them but most of them, younger. 1:19:47 AD: I see. 1:19:48 JK: I came here at twenty, I tell people I am eighteen, or I came here at twenty-five I tell people I am twenty-three. I do not know why. But it was a common thing. And then so what happened years later; social security comes along. Now you are an old man, you are in your sixties, you are retiring, all this time, you made yourself two years younger, now you have get to wait two years to get your social security. So they tried to re-establish their correct age. Some succeeded, some did not. My father, his story to me is when he was in Detroit, he found a priest from Averek who said he baptized my father [laughs], and it was not 1895, he was born in 1893. He swore to this, and the government accepted it. So he was able to make himself two years older after all these years and saying he was two years younger. It is interesting, and when I found out, I thought conscription was eighteen, then I found out that conscription was at the age twenty. I said then, then I believed the story because why he would come here two years early. He had a pretty good life back there, you know, most of them did not come here if they had a decent life. You know, my mother told me, she said, you know, if somebody got in trouble, it was never a woman, it was always a man actually. If somebody got in trouble, the family– if they could have afford it would send him to America. We do not want to dishonor the family name. And if they did not have the money, they would beg, borrow or steal from relatives to send him to America. We had an undertaker in New York City, he seemed like a very, very nice man and we would visit, and they would come up here, we would go down there, and my mother said, she did not know what the story was but something had happened before the Genocide and they had sent him to America. 1:21:51 AD: Good thing something happened– 1:21:53 JK: Yeah, he lived. Yeah, he got married, he had family, he had a life instead being you know, but it was–I find it fascinating, it was interesting. And my dad unfortunately was a– I do not want to say professional, he was a liar and because of that, and my mother, I have fight not to lie other than, if you asked me about how a dress looked on you and you obviously love it, I am going to say it looks very nice, even if I think Oh my God what did she do, but no I try very hard, but he lied, he lied, he lied, and he lied and that in a relationship whether it was a husband-wife or parent-child, uh, it was destructive. 1:22:46 AD: It is. 1:22:47 JK: You know, you cannot count on anything, the person says. You do not know what is true and what is not true. 1:22:55 AD: Was he nice to your sisters? 1:23:00 JK: Not, really. Remember I was six when Manoushag married, so she is out of the house, and I was almost ten when Berjouhi went in the navy in World War II. Now, Manoushag, he did not bother Manoush once; different personalities. She could ignore him, she could figuratively, not literally, figuratively tell him to go to hell. Berjouhi had a– she just could not stand him. She would start shaking if they were in the same room together. She hated him. She hated him, and he did not like her particularly but that was normal I think, if you do not like somebody it is reciprocated, if you like somebody it is reciprocated. It is not a conscious thing. There was something there– my nieces Berjouhi’s daughters think that there may have been some sexual abuse, and I said really. I said I do not know, I do not think so, but who knows. And Berjouhi would never say boo. So, and we lost her four years ago unfortunately, but she hated him. It– just amazing. She just, Manoush did not like him but there was like night and day because two different personalities. 1:24:30 AD: So, he was not liked in your family, was he liked in the Armenian community? 1:24:39 JK: People who did not know him well, I am sure they liked him because he was friendly, personable, outward-going and because of his music he was exposed to all socio-economic levels of people and he blended in or fit in easily. So, I would think yes. I would think most people would like him unless they got to know him very well and then you get to know oh he has got this little problem with the gambling or you cannot really on his word, but you would have to know him well, very well to know that. But I would think most people would like him, yeah. 1:25:15 AD: So, your mother, did get any money from him because? 1:25:20 JK: Oh, no, no, she was better off than he was. [laughs] She did not have anything but he had less. [laughs] 1:25:25 AD: So, how did she raise you? She worked? 1:25:29 JK: Oh, when were child they were together, forgive me. 1:25:32 AD: No, when they split? 1:25:32 JK: Oh, no, when they split, no because she was working and I started a paper boy at the age of eleven or twelve so, the couple bucks a week I made took care of me, took care of my clothes, you know, my mother provided room and board. Just like I say I put myself through a college. Well I did it in away but my mother provided free room and board, so without her free room and board I would not have gotten to school, you know. 1:26:04 AD: Wow! So, your mom really did not have a good life! Did she? 1:26:11 JK: She did after 1950, after my father left. 1:26:15 AD: Or before 1914? She had a nice life. 1:26:16 JK: She had a good life until 1915, they were not wealthy, do not misunderstand me but they were comfortable. They had their own home. My father, my grandfather, pardon me, was a one of the handful of professional photographers in Sebastia/Sivas and they had some farmland outside the city where they tenant farmers, they did not get any money, but they got part of the crop, maybe five percent of the crop or something. They had some kind of a mill, my mother told me that the government would let– would not let them use, again, outside of town, grist mill, flour mill, some kind of a mill. I do not know, but you know they had a comfortable middle-class existence for the time and place because you say middle-class existence, people think twenty fifteen or twenty seventeen, no we are talking 1910, 1915– big, big, big difference, you know, world, home, animals lived on the first floor, families lived on the second floor, no window or plumbing. You know, they had a little stream or creek that ran through the back yard. Well it ran through many back yards. The outhouse was over the stream, and I remember telling this to my son, and he said dad eventually that has got to end, how about the person on the end [laughs], they going to get all the body waste from ten, or twenty or thirty families [laughs], but, you know, she would have never come here had not been for the Genocide she would have stayed in Sivas. And my father was going to go back. It would give you an idea that people introduced my mother and my father in Philadelphia, my mother is a young widow with two little girls and we went to visit them from Berjouhi’s home in New Jersey, they were living in Pennsylvania but not in Philadelphia, nice, nice people and they had not seen me since I was a kid and they apologized to me for introducing my mother to my father; we though he was a nice man [laughs], we did not realize, and I said that was okay. You know, it is done, it is past, and I said if you had not introduced them I would not be here. 1:28:47 AD: That is right. 1:28:48 JK: And you know that is a nice gift. [laughs] 1:28:50 AD: That is right. 1:28:52 JK: You know, but so I think most people would have liked my father but he should have stayed single. He should have stayed a bachelor. 1:29:01 AD: So, your father left, and then you continued to live with your mother, and– 1:29:09 JK: Lived with her basically until I got married, just like in the old country. [laughs] 1:29:14 AD: Yeah, exactly. So, who did you marry to? 1:29:23 JK: Married to a young– well she is an old woman now, she is seventy-eight; Ann Harding Sullivan. She is English and Irish, but Sullivan is the surname, so you think she is Irish. She is actually slightly more English. 1:29:41 AD: But not an Armenian girl? 1:29:42 JK: Oh, no. No and as I told my mother, and she understood when her mind was good, I say mom we are in Binghamton, there are a few eligible young women, but they are like my sisters. How do you date or fall in love with your sister. You know, you have known them your whole life, you can do that. I said, you know, if I get of town and go to New York, Philly or Boston or some place, I said where there is thousands of Armenians who I do not know, I said I am liable to run into a little nice Armenian girl, and it happens. If it does is wonderful. I said but I am living in Binghamton, you know, we are not in Armenia, and she understood that and– 1:30:23 AD: But she wanted an Armenian girl? 1:30:26 JK: Oh, sure. Sure. I did too. If you, if you had asked me I would say yes. And with fifty-four years plus of marriage, I can tell you that we were both and better off if we married somebody like ourselves instead of somebody so different. Cultural differences are huge, and my wife, I came from economic station down here, socially we had basic, simple middle class values but economically were are down here my mother and I, and her family was upper middle class. I keep telling people I saw the big red brick house on top of the hill and I thought I was moving up; I did not realize that all the money was long gone before I got there– but anyway. You know, she came from a very different background, and I am sure her parents were not happy; wonderful people, my mother-in-law was. Excuse me I am getting emotional, she was a wonderful, wonderful person but they had to look at me and when he looked like a foreigner [laughs]– but this is America, they are the Americans. I just got off the boat really. My mother-in-law, her family went back to the Mayflower. You know that is an American-American. My father-in-law, his grandparents, I think, were the immigrants from Ireland but they were good people and they did not have a choice, they accepted me. And they–my mother-in-law especially grew to love me– I am getting emotional again– but she said I taught her about family, the concept of family, ah–it was not what she was used to, but she liked it. You know, that she was family, she was my wife’s mother, and she was my mother. And that was the way I was raised, you know, he was my wife’s father– dad was– he was my father and they use first names. I got engaged and my father-in-law says: Jerry, you can call me Jack. I said, no I am sorry Mr. Sullivan I cannot do that, I will not do that, you are Mr. Sullivan, I said when we got married I will call you dad which is what I did, you know, that would be awful calling him by his first name! 1:33:20 AD: Well, that is the culture. So, what did your mother do after you got married? She lived alone? 1:33:26 JK: Yep, yeah, yeah she lived alone, and well she was alone I was in the service, she lived alone, I went to school in Mexico City for a year she lived alone, so we lived in Buffalo for four years, and I came back [laughs], came back as my mother in her mid-sixties and her health was not good and I said, Anne you know I really think I should be there, she might need me, or she will need me, and I said you mind moving back home. She said no, it sounds great. So, we moved back to Binghamton. I am worried about my mother’s health. She lived another twenty-five years. [laughs] 1:34:07 AD: So, let me ask you this, when your mother got like really sick, really old. Where did she live? 1:34:16 JK: Well, there was a senior citizen’s apartment at Isabell Street, next to the Governmental complex, Isabell Street and there is a twin building on Exchange Street, ten stories and they are for primarily senior citizens of limited means, and she wanted go there and I did not think it was a bad idea but I was concerned about the people, very honestly. She said go, checked out. I said okay. So, I went down and introduced myself in the office and blah, blah, blah and they took me around I met a few people, and they showed me few apartments and I went back, said okay mom, I said they are [Armenian word], they are decent people, and I said if you had to live there okay, and so she moved in there and she was there as long as we could keep her there unfortunately her mind started to go, some form of dementia, and if we had not been so close it would have been another year or two before we would have realized that I am sure, and I am sure it started at least a year or two before we realized it but we spoke on the phone every day, I saw her Friday afternoons, I had a job where I could do this. I always said it was mom’s time. I would go see her and we go through the weeks mail and I write her checks or pay her bills, and make her donations whatever, you know, she wanted or needed. And we get caught up we talk and stuff. So, I knew her intimately and I knew her habits, and things started to not make sense. And I said something to Manoush, my sister here, the other sister Berjouhi lived out of town and so we were fortunate there was a– he is still here– he is retired, there is an Armenian psychologist here and we contacted him: Nurhan would you see my mom? 1:36:28 AD: What is the name? 1:36:30 JK: Nurhan Fındıkyan. 1:36:31 AD: Nurhan is a Turkish name. 1:36:33 JK: Well, he was born and raised in Turkey. He came here later. 1:36:38 AD: Fındıkyan? 1:36:39 JK: Fındıkyan, and fındık is– 1:36:40 AD: Hazelnut. 1:36:41 JK: I was going to say some kind of a nut, yes, okay and so he checked her out and he said, you know, I cannot be absolutely sure we took her to a neurologist too, but he said I think it is some form of dementia. She seems to be a bright lady, but you know, she is getting old, things are happening. And the thing I also remember I said what do we owe you, “no, no, no” he said, ahh [gasps] he said I cannot take anything from a survivor, I cannot charge a survivor, he said I cannot do that. I said thank you very much because he spent a couple of hours with her, you know, and we did that because we thought she would be more comfortable in Armenian, well in his case they guy spoke fluent Turkish, you know, then in English–English is her third language after all. And so we found out she had a problem and we did what we could to keep her in her apartment as long as we could; meals on wheels and Manoush was there probably every day, and she finally got to a point where we had to put her in a nursing home. She could not live alone– 1:38:07 AD: Yeah, she needed to be monitored. 1:38:09 JK: Yeah, you know, if, and it was easy because she always said, when I get old put me in a nursing home, put me in old-folks home. She did not want to live with us, because she was thinking of us, but I had a friend of mine, dear Ruth, is gone. She was the assistant administrator at Willow Point and we were having trouble getting her to a nursing home. She was not skilled nursing and she was kind of falling between the cracks, she was more like assisted living and I call Ruth and I said Ruth I got a problem; do you think you can help? And she said well, this is the county home; she was a little more flexible than the private homes. She said maybe we can. I will send somebody to evaluate her and they were– they evaluated her and she called me back a couple weeks later and said, Jerry we can take your mum. I said you got a place, and she said yes. I said okay, and thank God for Ruth, she was a sweetheart. She was a Hagopian but she was, her name was Bustard she married a half-Armenian named Hagopian. But she was not a Hye, that is what we call ourselves; Hye is Armenian in Armenia–Hye, H-Y-E. So, if you see H-Y-E on a license plate– 1:39:37 AD: That is Armenian. 1:39:39 JK: That is an Ermeni [Armenian in Turkish]– 1:39:42 AD: Ermeni, yeah. 1:39:44 JK: So, she was just a wonderful gal. Her husband, eh, but she is a wonderful gal. He is still alive, unfortunately we lost her. So mom was in a nursing home for ten years. 1:40:01 AD: Wow! 1:40:02 JK: A long time; age eighty to age ninety. 1:40:07 AD: Oh! Wow! That is a long time. And you just watched her going down? 1:40:11 JK: What else could we do? Manoosh was there almost every day. I would go at least, again, every Friday. Every Friday afternoon for twenty-five years was for mom, and I would go periodically other times. And they were wonderful, and they would call us when there was a problem and sometimes, in the middle of the night I had to go over there, or Manoush had to go over there, or we both go over there to, you know, help solve the problems and when we put my mother there, I said I want you understand something, I said we are going to be pains in the ass. We are going to be here, we are going to ask questions, we are going to make requests, we are going to be involved, we are going to be looking over your shoulder and I just want you know how we operate. This is who we are and they said that is wonderful, it is so much better when we usually see, they drop mom and dad off and you never see them again and that does not make sense to me but anyway. How can you do that? So she got good care, not perfect care, but she– no one gets perfect care, even at home, you cannot get perfect care. She had a good care, and it dawned on me later because we were there all the time, subconsciously, and then everybody knew that Ruth the assistant administrator was a close personal friend of mine. I am a little slow these things going on me very– after the fact and I said oh God everybody knew Ruth was my dear friend, you know, that would make a difference too. I mean she got very good care– 1:42:01 AD: That is good. So, how many kids did you have? 1:42:06 JK: Me, personally, unfortunately only one; our son. I say that because in those days they never checked the man, today they check the male when you have problems reproducing. And Annie had problems, endometriosis, in fact she has endometrial-cancer if I am saying that right now, so far now everything is okay but, you know, but I keep telling her we all are going to die and we do not have a choice. [laughs] 1:42:40 AD: Yeah, one way or another, something, right we will die of something. 1:42:44 JK: Yes, when I got my prostate cancer about ten years ago, our regular physician Dr. Darlene said, Jerry she said, at your age you do not have to worry, something else will kill you first. I said oh, nice to know, thank you [laughs]– but anyway– 1:43:01 AD: So, what is his name, your son? 1:43:05 JK: He is a Junior, Jerald Michael Kalayjian Junior. 1:43:09 AD: Okay, no Armenian name. 1:43:13 JK: No, but the family call him Ji Ji Ji which is the nick name for Jirayr, we– I am sure the Turks do this too, nicknames. I call him, he was the Muk, Muknik which is a little mouse, you know when he was a baby, and it stuck, and he is still the Muk, when I said the Muk, everybody knows, everybody in the family knows who I am talking about, even though he is forty-eight years old and he is two hundred pounds but he is– you know– 1:43:45 AD: He is two hundred pounds? 1:43:47 JK: Yeah, I am two hundred pounds. 1:43:49 AD: You do not look like two hundred pounds. 1:43:51 JK: He is two hundred pounds, he lost– he got, he got fat, my kid. He was two forty, I said honey, I said, you got to get rid of it, you get older, you cannot get rid of it, it is not how it looks but it is not healthy, forty pounds of extra weight– now he is looking good. 1:44:07 AD: But you look good for your age. 1:44:09 JK: You know what it is, I picked the right parents and grandparents. [laughs] 1:44:014 AD: Here you go. 1:44:15 JK: Dumb luck, the call it dumb luck. I tell the Americans it is the olive oil. 1:44:21 AD: That is right. 1:44:23 JK: We do not eat that much olive oil but that is what I tell them anyway. But anyway, where was I, the Muk okay, one kid and Annie had a lot of problems and she went to wonderful specialist in Syracuse and as my cousin Mike said, my cousin Margaret, his wife and my sister Manoushag worshiped this man. And Mike said to me look Ji Ji, she said, if they both worship him, he has get to be special [laughs] so it is a good place take Annie, go, go, go, go! [laughs] And so, she went up there and they treated her for a while, she had a surgery and they said okay, Anne or Mrs. Kalayjian, you can go home now and have babies. Well, we could not and until this day I am convinced that I may have had a weak sperm, lazy sperm or whatever they call it. You know that I was part of the problem, but we do not know that and I think we are lucky we had a kid under the circumstances. Because she said, hey you know, if we are going to have a kid, we should get keep, I was twenty, no, no, no, no. God I am getting– she was twenty-eight I was thirty-three, something like that. 1:45:49 AD: That is young. 1:45:50 JK: And I said, oh you know you got a point, bang she got pregnant which is thank God because I want to kill him occasionally but he is my best friend and he is obviously an extremely important part of my life. 1:46:05 AD: Of course. So If I see him, where is he? 1:46:10 JK: They live in almost to New Hampshire, north of Boston. 1:46:16 AD: Oh, okay. So, if I see him, if I ask him like who are you, would he identify him as Armenian? 1:46:30 JK: Yes. 1:46:31 AD: He would? 1:46:32 JK: He probably say, Armenian-English-Irish, but Armenian yes. Well, he is half-Armenian. We count him. My grandkids, they are a quarter Armenian. He cannot count them as Armenian. 1:46:42 AD: No? 1:46:42 JK: No. 1:46:43 AD: Really? 1:46:44 JK: No, a quarter? No, no. Half, yes. When you are a quarter, you know, you are– they are amalgam, they are the United Nations. [laughs] 1:46:57 AD: I do not know; I mean that is in the ethnic background– 1:47:03 JK: Oh, yes. My newest grandson is– he looks about as Near Easter as my wife. There is nothing about him that would say Armenian Near Eastern. 1:47:16 AD: Yeah, but you never know these genes– 1:47: JK: Oh, that is true. 1:47: AD: You may have a child– 1:47:22 JK: With black hair and brown eyes! [laughs] No you do not know but in my mind if my counting ethnic group, if they are half, they belong to the ethnic group, but if they are a quarter, you can identify, you know, culturally with one or another, but a quarter is only 25 percent. 1:47:48 AD: Still, I think they need to identify themselves. I personally think– 1:47:54 JK: Okay, I hope they remember that their part Armenian. My one niece who is half Armenian. This is Berjouhi’s daughter, Deb. She thinks of herself, this part Armenian, her daughter, Ellen, now who is a quarter Armenian, she thinks of herself as part Armenian, but other niece Pam who is half Armenian, probably denies it. 1:48:25 AD: Yeah, everybody is different. 1:48:25 JK: You know, it is a– and her children do not have a– oh she is a grandmother now, for God’s sake. She does not– they do not, I do not think they know. They knew Nana, Berjouhi was an Armenian but I know how far it is gone because for whatever reason she has pulled away from the family. So– 1:48:51 AD: Well, I am not nationalist at all but I think I grew up in that culture and it makes me different and then my daughter is introduced to that culture and I hope she will introduce it to her children. I do not, I doubt she– 1:49:10 JK: Well, she is half Turkish. 1:49:11 AD: She is half Turkish. 1:49:13 JK: Yes, I forgot because just assume you are married a Turk for some reason. 1:49:20 AD: No. 1:49:20 JK: But I hope, yes. 1:49:23 AD: Do you know what I mean. I mean not that every– 1:49:24 JK: You should know who you are and be proud of who you are. 1:49:29 AD: Exactly. Because that brings something else right, like we, the family you taught your mother-in-law about the importance of family, right, so that comes from that culture, I think. 1:49:47 JK: Oh, yes, no question– No, the American concept of family which is mom, dad and the kids, that is immediate family, and that is ridiculous. 1:49:55 AD: So it is in that thing too about that nucleus family vs traditional family. 1:50:10 JK: Yes, how do you not count first cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents? That is all– 1:50:15 AD: Or even friends, or your neighbors, you know, it is just like part of one big– 1:50:24 JK: Yeah, the Abashian family, Cathy’s uncles and aunts, father, grandparents for me, they were like family. 1:50:36 AD: That is right. 1:50:37 JK: You know, they– we spent so much time together, and they were good people, wonderful people. And Cathy, I am biased, I think she is a sweetheart, you know, yeah–No I hope love will conquer all but I am not going to hold my breath waiting. 1:51:01 AD: No, no. So let us talk about food when you were growing up. 1:51:05 JK: Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful I was fortunate that my mother was a good cook, great baker I did not know that until I grew up but she was a good cook and I did not realize because it is the 1930s and (19)40s and we are poor, that what we were eating is today in fashion is gourmet food [laughs]. And I thought eating a lot of fruits and vegetables because we could not afford meat, [laughs] you know, I would– 1:51:38 AD: So, you ate Armenian food growing up? 1:51:40 JK: Oh, yeah. But one story I get to tell you since you are talking about food. This community, this area has a lot of Eastern European people, Slavic people here, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Russians Ukrainians, on and on and on, and these people obviously we lived together, And my mother made kolaczki very good kolaczki and I enjoyed it, I liked it very much and I got to high school, tenth grade in those days. And I met a lot of first world kids, Slavic background and then I realized, oh it is an Eastern European pastry, it is not Armenian. I thought it was Armenian because my mother made it. Actually most of the Armenian women made it, but of course the neighborhood was a Czech or Russian and that is good, what it can– Can you give me the recipe and you know went back and forth [laughs] but you know, I am fifteen years old, oh it is not Armenian, I thought it was Armenian, what do I know, but, yeah, we ate well, to give an idea, my dear wife who lived in a different world, very comfortable; they eat baloney in their sandwiches– who would eat that stuff? 1:53:00 AD: [laughs] Not me! 1:53:03 JK: We proved you tinier for careful call because as you knew in the ̶ you know in the Near East, you live to eat– 1:53:11 AD: That is right. 1:53:12 JK: You do not eat to live. 1:53:14 AD: No. 1:53:15 JK: And so, you know, food was very important and, you got– my mother always bought the best that we could afford, now we could not obviously buy port house stakes but, you know, you ate well and, God I went– I did not really– I took– I am slow. I went in the air force and the food was horrible! Well I did not realize until maybe twenty years later, they used zero spice. There is no spice, none. So, pepper on the table but no spice. So, everything is very bland and everything is overcooked, well that is okay but everything is very bland and most people who were in the service put weight on. I did not put weight on, how can I put weight on. The food was lousy, the food was really bad. They had ice-cream, they had milk, peanut butter and jelly so you can make a sandwich and they had salad and when the food was really bad that is what I ate. Occasionally, it was okay but oh God it was awful but see I did not, I was not thinking well I am a product of two cultures and I have had the benefit of Near Eastern cooking which in my opinion at its best, is the equivalent of the best in the world. I think it is right after the French and the Chinese who you always hear about, at its best I think it could compare even though I know you do not lot much of them, shame on you for that! [laughs] but– 1:54:53 AD: That is a personal, I am not a big meet eater but I do eat kebab, you know. 1:54:58 JK: Well, that is nice! [laughs] 1:55:01 AD: When I am in Turkey ̶ lahmacun for some reason it never appealed to me. 1:55:05 JK: Well, I guess it depends again like anything else who makes it and how it is made. 1:55:10 AD: Yeah, yeah. 1:55:11 JK: Because the Turkish restaurant in Johnson City, do you remember them? 1:55:14 AD: Yeah, they were not good. 1:55:15 JK: Oh well see the first couple that owned it– 1:55:19 AD: The first one, he was from Black Sea, the one with blonde hair. His wife– 1:55:24 JK: His wife was bleach blonde. 1:55:27 AD: Yes, but he was kind of light complexion, he was from Black Sea region. Osman or something like that his name was, I do not remember. He was making the bread over there do you remember the bread. That was good like he was just taking the bread out of the oven– 1:55:45 JK: And he had somebody from Turkey, a Turkish gentleman middle age who made the lahmacun– 1:55:50 AD: I did not eat the lahmacun. 1:55:53 JK: Oh, but it was good, the lahmacun was good, my opinion– 1:55:56 AD: No, probably it was but I was eating– I ate other stuff over there and it was good. So, the second owner, I heard he was very bad. 1:56:07 JK: We only ate once or twice, and he was not there that long, and then a third ownership came in, a Turk and an Armenian going by the names. And we never got there. 1:56:19 AD: I have never ̶ 1:56:20 JK: They were there few months and then they closed. And the second one stopped serving lahmacun and right away I said black mark against his name [laughs] because I walk in there and the guy who made the lahmacun, I did not know his name, he did not know mine but he recognized me and he started making the lahmacun for me. I told him how I liked it, you know, I liked a little spicy and I like it, I do not like it well done, well cooked– I mean, the bread I do not want the cracker for the bread, I wanted to be soft. 1:56:55 AD: Yes, I mean it should not be too crunchy the bread, it should not be crunchy. 1:57:00 JK: Yeah, I am sorry that it did not last. Now why I do bring it up to Turkish restaurant– 1:57:04 AD: We are talking about food that is why. 1:57:07 JK: Oh, okay but, rather tell you about the lahmacun, I am not sure but because remember I told you the Turkish students and he had students as waiters and waitresses– 1:57:19 AD: I know. 1:57:20 JK: The first couple. There is some kid in there from Turkey. 1:57:22 AD: I got a student worker like my visit over there, I hired a couple of students. 1:57:30 JK: Okay. 1:57:31 AD: Yeah. 1:57:32 JK: But I asked him I said, you are Turkish is this cooking as good as mom’s back home, and they said yes. And I said, oh, well maybe the food is good. We went there probably half a dozen times and we enjoyed it, you know. 1:57:51 AD: The lady, the first owner, she was making all these meze [appetizer in Turkish] kind of food and she was not bad. 1:58:00 JK: But I enjoyed it, I do not know– 1:58:03 AD: So, what were you eating growing up? What was your mother cooking? 1:58:07 JK: A lot of ̶ which is stew-type dishes of various kinds, obviously a lot of pilaf, the rice pilav more than bulgur pilav. And did not realize until I grew up that in the old country they would have eaten much more bulgur pilav– rice pilav was for special occasions. You know, parties or weddings or whatever. Obviously, shish kebab, I am trying to remember, boreks or various sorts again baklava was special, baklava, sarayburma. 1:58:56 AD: Sarayburma. [laughs] 1:58:57 JK: Kadayıf, I love kadayıf, but I do not know my mother made much of that. That is later in life but the sarayburma and the baklava was the special and of course I liked the way the– I think maybe was the Harputsies made the baklava which is the thick heavy chewy and of course the ̶ looked down their nose that and that is what I liked, used to irritate my mother but anyway. My taste was in my mouth– 1:59:37 AD: So you got married, so did your wife learn how to make any Armenian food? 1:59:45 JK: Yeah, she knows, she is a pretty good cook. I think she is slipping a little bit but you know that is a life. But she is a pretty good cook, and she, you know learned some of the basics, the shish kebab, the pilav of course. My son loves pilav, he eats it like he never seen it before. I should not say my son, our son, I had very little to do with him. It is the woman who deserves all of the credit. If we had to carry a fetus to term and deliver there be much few people of the world– I am sure, on a side, I just think, nothing to do with sex, I just think that women’s body is just a little bit, or the female’s body just a little bit fascinating, you know, if we are ice cream the men are vanilla you are at least Neapolitan. I mean, oh God, but what else does she– oh there was a dish my mother used to make that I love, and I do not know what it is called but it was the almost the throw away parts of lamb and she browned it with spices and onions and parsley and– I do not know what it is called but I just loved it. And it was the– what is the word I am looking for? It was almost lamb that you could not eat, you know, it was the worst part of the animal and rather than throwing it away, nothing was wasted, nothing, I mean nothing. 2:01:37 AD: Of course, yeah. 2:01:43 JK: It was– and she does that for me. I am trying– God! You know I left my mother’s home in 1962 that was a long time ago, but we have köfte, the– it is like a hand grenade, it is hollow– Well, that is the–I do not know who to describe it. It is got the filling– 2:02:13 AD: Yeah içli köfte. 2:02:15 JK: İçli? 2:02:16 AD: İçli köfte, means it has something in it. 2:02:19 JK: Okay? 2:02:21 AD: Köfte which has inside, like something in it. İçli köfte. 2:02:25 JK: All right. 2:02:27 AD: I think in Arabic culture they call it kibbeh. 2:02:32 JK: Oh, it is very similar, yes. The raw kibbeh is what– we call it çiğ köfte, ham köfte, ham köfte– 2:02:39 AD: Oh, çiğ köfte is the raw meat that is very common in– I do not thing Arabic culture, that is Anatolian, Asian minor, I do not know. 2:02:49 JK: Ok, but the Arabs do have it. 2:02:52 AD: Do they? 2:02:53 JK: Yeah, the Syrians, the Lebanese– 2:02:55 AD: They do? 2:02:56 JK: But my mother told me, Sebastia/Sivas did not have çiğ köfte, ham köfte, the raw meat, they did not have it, I do not know where she picked it up, it is from somewhere else, and again you realize– 2:03:10 AD: Maybe they do, I do not know çiğ köfte, maybe yeah, because how make the raw meat eatable with lots of seasoning so that comes from the Southern, you know they use more seasoning, southern part– 2:03:23 JK: Primarily, onions and parsley but the use and they use bulgur with the very, very, very fine bulgur to make it, you know, stick together– 2:03:39 AD: And they– depending on the region, they either fry it or they boil it. 2:03:47 JK: I am talking about the raw, uncooked. 2:03:52 AD: Uncooked!? 2:03:53 JK: Uncooked, it is delicious! Delicious! 2:03:56 AD: Okay, I was thinking this, this thing. 2:04:00 JK: You are making me hungry with all this. 2:04:05 AD: [laughs] Yeah, this. So– 2:04:09 JK: No, this is, and the Lebanese, and the Syrians, they go crazy with their parsley which I did not like as a kid, I loved it but it is– 2:04:24 AD: Really? Oh, I love parsley, dill and mint. 2:04:28 JK: Okay, the first two yeah, mint is– 2:04:30 AD: So, it is like this. So, what did they put in it? 2:04:35 JK: No, no. it is– it would be– I am not an artist, if it was in my hand, it is like a rectangle and it is not because it is made with bare hand, so you squeezed together and it is like a rough small hand grenade. And it is raw meat. And very, very, very fine, the finest bourghul you can find. Because I know bulgur comes in three or four at least different sizes. Some people call it, qeema. Does that ring a– because that does not sound Armenian to me. I wonder if it might be Turkish. 2:05:20 AD: This is çiğ köfte [showing an image]. 2:05:21 JK: Okay, okay. I have never seen it with the lemon or the lime. It looks like– 2:05:25 AD: Oh, that is the decoration. 2:05:30 JK: Okay, this looks like the çiğ köfte or ham, ham is uncooked. Ham köfte, and I love that I can eat that until the cows come home. That is so–oh it is so good. 2:05:43 AD: Okay, tell me how you spell it? 2:05:45 JK: Oh My God! 2:05:46 AD: No, no. Let us see. Let us go with it. 2:05:51 JK: Well, spelling. 2:05:53 AD: What I mean is– What did you say? 2:05:56 JK: Hm? Çiğ köfte? 2:05:58 AD: Not, çiğ köfte, this is çiğ köfte [showing an image]. 2:06:04 JK: Okay, Khema– 2:06:09 AD: Okay. 2:06:11 JK: K– 2:06:12 AD: Reima? 2:06:15 JK: No, it is K–Oh God, because I do not use that–would it be K-H maybe? 2:06:19 AD: Okay. 2:06:19 JK: K-H-E-M-E or M-A I am not much help I am sorry. 2:06:29 AD: Oh God look what we have come up– 2:06:36 JK: So I do not know if that is Armenian or Turkish. 2:06:38 AD: It is not Turkish. 2:06:40 JK: Then it must be– 2:06:43 AD: No, I do not see it. I said köfte, but I guess we do not know what that is. 2:06:53 JK: Khema köfte curry. That is getting close. 2:06:15 AD: That is Indonesia, what is it? Indian,Indian. 2:07:04 JK: That is what I guess. Where did we get the Indian from? Oh you are looking here. Why I do not try reading? [laughs] The curry should have given me a hint. 2:07:13 AD: Yeah, but it is okay,– 2:07:20 JK: There is another köfte here– Khema, khema, but it is– 2:07:21 AD: Khema– 2:07:22 JK: This is khema. 2:07:26 AD: Is that what you are trying to say, khema? 2:07:28 JK: I do not know. 2:07:30 AD: Khema [kıyma in Turkish] means ground beef. 2:07:32 JK: See, it could be because I am repeating what I have heard– 2:07:38 AD: Khema is– 2:07:39 JK: My mother did not– my mother and father never used that term but– and you probably know this but there are different dialects of Armenian. 2:07:50 AD: Okay, now I am going to teach you something about Armenian culture. 2:07:55 JK: Okay. 2:07:57 AD: So, this is ̶ the name is topik 2:08:00 JK: Ermeni? 2:08:01 AD: Yeah. Because I want to pull it that is why, because it is an Armenian dish but this is, this– okay this a perfect thing. This is number one meze like when you go to the drink, teverna type of drink rakı. 2:08:26 JK: Awful stuff. 2:08:27 AD: Eat for hours, you know, talk fast, that so this is actually chick peas [showing an image]. So they make it– I guess, uh so they use chick peas, potato, tahini and onion, little– what is those little ̶ 2:08:54 JK: Soğan. 2:08:55 AD: Yeah soğan on. And then so, they make that dough looking thing and then I am going to go back to this thing, so they put inside so when you cut it you have this. This is like ̶ very famous; you see this is what is inside. 2:09:19 JK: It looks like dough in the outside, isn’t it? Is that dough? 2:09:22 AD: But it is not dough. 2:09:24 JK: Oh, it is not. 2:09:25 AD: Something mixed with– like chick peas, mashed ̶ 2:09:29 JK: Like a paste, okay. 2:09:31 AD: And then. 2:09:32 JK: You should know I am not a cook. [laughs] 2:09:35 AD: But this is like very famous, uh, very famous, uh, Armenian dish. 2:09:45 JK: Now, what it is called? 2:09:46 AD: Topik. 2:09:46 JK: Topik, okay. 2:09:50 AD: But you cannot find that in Armenia, you know Yerevan or whatever, because that is the culture in Istanbul, those Armenians came up with that. You know like regionally differences. 2:10:06 JK: Oh, yeah. 2:10:07 AD: Kind of like dolma, but– 2:10:11 JK: Wait a second, forgot about we had a lot of dolma. 2:10:14 AD: Yeah. 2:10:15 JK: The potato, the squash– not the potato, listen to me– the tomato, the squash, the green pepper– 2:10:22 AD: So, there is like, the pine nuts and then this, what is the name of that– it is not raisons, the tiny one– 2:10:35 JK: Currant maybe? 2:10:36 AD: Currant and then, kıyma, [laughs] so that they stuff it they make it like this round topic, it is kind of like something chubby– So, there you go. 2:10:55 JK: All right! Can I– excuse me for a minute? Where is the nearest restroom please? There is one nearby, I hope. 2:11:03 AD: Of course, yes. There is one nearby! 2:11:07 JK: We need a key? Wow! 2:11:11 AD: Yeah, this is, uh, special collections, so and then– 2:11:20 JK: Oh, I did not realize– 2:11:22 AD: Yeah, but no one is working, so when you come back we can just knock the door I will open it. [Indistinct distant voice] 2:11:45 JK: I read about some people I did not realize they still existed. I met a Laz [a predominantly Sunni Muslim Kartvelian people of Caucasia who live mainly in Turkey] in North Eastern Turkey, and I said oh God, they exist, oh, I read about them, you know, they are ancient people that they used to– I do not know that they are still around. 2:12:01 AD: Exactly, that is right. 2:12:03 JK: Did not you say your family was from Trabzon? Yeah, we were there. 2:12:06 AD: Yeah. You know what, I have never been there. 2:12:10 JK: It is a– because we went up, we drove up to the Black Sea Giresun, I think and then we went East to almost to the Georgian border then we turned inland. And went to, I cannot remember all the places– Ardahan, Kars, Ardahan ̶. 2:12:30 AD: I have never been in those places. 2:12:36 JK: I was told– 2:12:38 AD: Please help yourself, after all that– 2:12:40 JK: No I am not hungry, thank you. But, uh, no it is a– I was–we were told that Western Turks look upon Eastern Turkey, as, I do not know– 2:12:50 AD: Backward? 2:12:51 JK: Yes, it out west like we looked at the West a hundred years ago, that was the wilderness and the East “cultured.” [laughs] 2:13:05 AD: Yeah, the thing is that was intentional, that was intentional, they– 2:13:08 JK: Because of the Armenians and the Kurds? 2:13:11 AD: Yeah, because that part of the country was left that way because of the population-mix over there, yeah, that was all intentional. 2:13:27 JK: Okay, yeah I do not think I knew that, that it was intentional, I just thought it kind of happened. 2:13:33 AD: Oh, yeah. Because it is like I mean all these– especially Kurds, millions of Kurds still living in there, I mean– 2:13:43 JK: Oh, now. Yeah. 2:13:47 AD: You know, so that was intentional. 2:13:51 JK: So, I was going to ask you something, and it came and went. 2:13:57 AD: Oh, I am sorry. 2:13:59 JK: No, no, it is not your fault. It is being an old man, you know. As the body is wearing out and breaking down, so is the mind. Damn– I– it– maybe it will come back. 2:14:12 AD: Oh, it will come back. 2:14:15 JK: Yeah. 2:14:15 AD: So we were just– so, with your mother or with your father, did you always speak Armenian? Like what was the language? 2:14:20 JK: When my father, I am trying to remember, [laughs] because he left 1950 when he left, the last time I lived with him. I think I spoke mostly Armenian with him. I think with my mother overtime I was speaking more English than Armenian, but we would go back and forth; certain words are better in language A than language B or vice versa. 2:15:03 AD: How did you call her? 2:15:05 JK: Oh, she was mom. 2:15:06 AD: Is that how were you calling her? Mom? 2:15:08 JK: Yeah, mom or mama. 2:15:09 AD: Okay, mama. 2:15:10 JK: Once you became a grandmother, she became granny and my oldest nephew just turned seventy-four. So, I was an uncle at eight which was a big deal when you are a kid. All my friends were nine and ten, they are not uncles, I am an uncle wow! But mom, mama. 2:15:35 AD: How about your father? 2:15:37 JK: He was hayrik. Hayr is father, hayrik is the diminutive of father. He was always hayrik but my mother was– I do not remember ever calling her mayrik, or mayr. I may have but I do not remember it. But it was mum, mama, you know. I used to pick on her and her answer, she was special for me. Anything that I have to offer that is good, worthwhile, positive I give my mother credit. My love of music, I am assuming my dad because when I was in the womb I would have heard the oud. I mean he played it every day for at least fifteen or twenty minutes. Every day he played a little bit. It was his escape time or whatever. So, I love music and I love strings I assume it is because of him and the oud. 2:16:41 AD: So, did your mom, because she was around, did she teach any Armenian, either Manoush or your other sister or your kids’ sister? 2:16:53 JK: Teach Armenian? 2:16:55 AD: Armenian. 2:16:56 JK: Well, my sisters were fluent– 2:17:00 AD: No, their kids– 2:17:01 JK: Oh, her grandchildren, I am sorry. She tried a little but kids are usually not very bright, and they– no, no, no, they are not interested that the Muk said that, you know, he should have paid attention, or he should have been more interested because he, I think of the five grandchildren, he is probably the one who most feels like an Armenian, or thinks of himself as an Armenian. I may be wrong, you know, it is hard to get in somebody else’s head but I think he is the one who says yes, you know, he is Armenian. 2:17:47 AD: So, nobody married with an Armenian, none of your sisters– 2:17:50 JK: Manoushag did. 2:17:52 AD: Okay, her husband was Armenian? 2:17:55 JK: Yes. 2:17:56 AD: I do not remember I was there but– 2:17:58 JK: Well, you know, he was– when you were there, he was already gone. 2:18:05 AD: No, I mean I interviewed with her, I do not remember the details. 2:18:06 JK: And he was also from his family, his parents came from Sivas/Sebastia. The city again, because as you know, vilayet [city in Turkish] is also the same name and I did not know that when I was a kid [laughs]. I did realize that there were two Sivases, you know there was the city and there was the state, the province, but– 2:18:28 AD: Yeah, at that time it was like that, in during Ottoman Empire. 2:18:32 JK: It is still, isn’t the vilayet still? 2:18:34 AD: There is a city but at that time so much I was just helping, you know Grace, right? 2:18:48 JK: Baradet, yes, yes. 2:18:50 AD: I do not have it open. I was– I am translating something for her. 2:18:57 JK: Oh, okay. 2:19:00 AD: Yes, and so this is a military dismiss paper but she is like puzzled because this was from her mother and– 2:19:13 JK: It is in Turkish I think, I take it. 2:19:15 AD: This. 2:19:17 JK: Oh that is yeah. That is the old Arabic script– 2:19:22 AD: And I am not really good at it, so but I have someone helped me, but I am still trying to make it. So it is like this Harput area, like what falls under, so I was just ‘Çarşanca’ is this area it falls under the–So it is like I was just checking and then there is another document– 2:19:54 JK: So, her mother had some papers, 2:19:56 AD: Wow! She had some papers. 2:19:59 JK: Yeah. 2:19:59 AD: And this other paper is a passport. This thing, I knew it, when I look at this, I said this must be passport, because– and I was right and it is a– 2:20:14 JK: I did not know she had this stuff. 2:20:16 AD: Yeah, I think that is her mother’s passport. 2:20:19 JK: A nice lady, her mother and my mother were friends. 2:20:21 AD: And then Gonca Bey, Antagül, so that is the name, gonca is like a little rose, a rose bud. 2:20:33 JK: Oh, okay, okay. 2:20:35 AD: So I think that was what her mother’s name. 2:20:37 JK: You see, many times I did not know names. 2:20:42 AD: I talked to her; I want to go visit her again. So, yeah. 2:20:47 JK: She is a nice gal; she is older than I am. So, she has been– my God. She is six years older than I am. Yeah she is even older than my cousin George. So, that means she is, wow! She is older than I realized it. She is eighty-eight going on eighty-nine. I do not know when her birthday is but because she was born in (19)28 but it is– most people do not have anything. It is nice. I did not realize that she had some papers. 2:21:19 AD: Yeah, she had some papers. She said years ago, her mother got her birth certificate translated in the Turkish Embassy in D.C and then she said these are not important so when I was over there, I said let me have them. I will see what I can come up with. And so it is interesting stuff. 2:21:41 JK: Her mother had a birth certificate? 2:21:44 AD: From, yeah, Ottoman Empire. 2:21:46 JK: Wow! Because I have been told, I do not know how accurate this is that– 2:21:50 AD: Somehow she managed to have it with her. 2:21:52 JK: Things were– record keeping was not that tight, that strict, that careful. I remember my uncle saying to me taxes were based on the males in the family. So if you had a lot of sons, you going to paid more taxes. So people with a large family, let us say you have a couple of daughter and four-five sons, well when you are, that son comes along, you do not bother, reporting the birth to the local authorities, so you do not have to pay additional taxes. So there is a lot of game-playing going on– 2:22:30 AD: Oh, I am sure. 2:22:31 JK: I do not know it is accurate, but that is one person’s– 2:22:34 AD: Well, maybe that is true especially in rural areas. Maybe in cities it is a little bit different. People were more like, you know, following up. 2:22:45 JK: It would be easier to play-games in the rural areas than in the urban areas. 2:22:51 AD: That is right, because, I mean who is going to go check on them, you know, and that education was not mandatory. We are talking about Ottoman Empire, you know, so they are not going to know. So, that I think in rural areas, yeah. 2:23:09 JK: Because that is the first time I have heard of that generation having a birth certificate; that does not mean, you know– 2:23:16 AD: Her mom got her birth certificate translated in Washington D.C. in Turkish Embassy when she was alive and she said this is not important. So, my investigation shows one of them is a teskere, military dismissal paperwork someone who completed the military duty and then they were discharged– discharge paper. 2:23:09 JK: So it is got to be a male. 2:23:48 AD: It is a male. She was like shocked. Because she was trying to figure out, who that is, but the name I gave her– 2:23:56 JK: Okay, it was not her brother certainly, so it had to be, I do not know I guess it is interesting. 2:24:02 AD: She definitely thinks it is not her father because as the years like twenty-year difference, then if it is not her mother and her father, then someone I guess in her mother’s family. I do not know when I go–when I finish everything, I will just go visit her and will go over. And then the other one is definitely a passport. 2:24:30 JK: Well I hope I remember to ask her, [laughs] 2:24:31 AD: Yeah, I say okay Grace how did it turn out, what happened what it was all about. That is neat, that is nice to have this stuff. I have got some papers, let us see, it is after the empire’s gone, well it is 1920, (19)21 that my step-grandmother came over with her two daughters, and they were her step-daughter but I am assuming that is in French, it has been a while since I looked at it, French and maybe, maybe Arabic but I am not sure. 2:25:14 AD: It must be Ottoman, just like this one, with Arabic letters. 2:25:18 JK: Well, the Ottoman Empire still existed in 1920, (19)21 but– 2:25:22 AD: That is right. 2:25:23 JK: But yeah, okay. 2:25:24 AD: No, because French was the secondary language and a lot of Armenians knew how to speak French but also the government, you know like how like English is kind of international language– 2:25:38 JK: Now– 2:25:38 AD: French was that way. 2:25:41 JK: Then– 2:25:41 AD: So, it must be Turkish written with Arabic alphabet, with Ottoman Script or Ottoman I should say because that is why some different kind of Turkish let me tell you, I have a hard time understanding– 2:25:59 JK: Oh, really? 2:26:00 AD: Oh, yeah. 2:26:02 JK: And in a hundred years there has been that much change! 2:26:04 AD: Huge! Huge! 2:26:05 JK: I mean the alphabet has been changed. 2:26:08 AD: That is the other thing with Turkification efforts like purifying the language and replacing Turkish words with Arabic ones and stuff like that. 2:26:23 JK: Yeah. 2:26:23 AD: And then, Ottoman is like, first of all the alphabet which does not fit in Turkish language, in Arabic there is only one vowel, and in Turkish language we have eight vowels, how are you going to make the words. [laughs] 2:26:47 JK: Oh, okay. 2:26:47 AD: Yeah, so, and there is like no sentence structure, it is like farming, if you could start, and keeps going, going so you kind of–you know what I mean, there is no sentence end and the other sentence starts– it goes on like this. 2:27:05 JK: Okay, yeah again– 2:27:07 AD: It is interesting. 2:27:09 JK: The rule in Central Asia, the language, right– that was where it came from, isn’t that where the language would have come from? 2:27:20 AD: I really do not know; I am not a linguist. 2:27:23 JK: No, I know that. 2:27:27 AD: So, to me the language was spoken in Anatolia is like mixed of different languages, the people who lived there. 2:27:37 JK: Well, that makes sense too, after a hundred of years– 2:27:40 AD: You know, because, if that was a language, then Turkish should sound more like Mongolian and it does not. I think it is just mixed, you know, with Armenian, Greek– 2:27:56 JK: Kurdish, Assyrian, Arab. 2:27:58 AD: Kurdish, Assyrian, Arabs, you know, is like a mixture– I think it is mixed, along with people, along with people. 2:28:11 JK: Unconsciously or subconsciously you borrow. 2:28:18 AD: Absolutely. 2:28:19 JK: Yeah, you are living together, you know. 2:28:22 AD: Absolutely. 2:28:23 JK: Interesting. 2:28:23 AD: Yeah, you just, and that languages something people leave at first, you know, that is one of the first things people leave behind You know, when they moving to new culture, very first thing they leave behind is the language. Like, look at your case, and then when I talk to Kurdish people, or all the research I read is that the very first thing people adapt is the new language. 2:28:56 JK: But I was born here, so, and I am forgetting the Armenian that I knew because I do not use it, but my mother, you know, when her mind was going, first she forgot English, then she forgot Turkish, she never forgot the Armenian. It was interesting. 2:29:20 AD: Because that was the first language she was taught. 2:29:23 JK: That was what she learned as a baby, as a child– uh, yeah, and they thought [laughs], the nursing home near the end, they thought she was swearing at them because she cannot speak anymore. I used to say mom you are speaking Armenian or you are speaking Turkish, you have to speak English, oh and she would switch, well then she lost that ability, and so she is upset obviously and she is saying something and my sister says, my mother does not swear, that was not like her normally, but who knows and what was she saying, they do not know, and she said [to the nursing home staff]– is it something my mother used to use a lot, she said, ̶ is it something like eş ̶ eşşek. That was it, you know, oh she was just calling you jack ass she is. [laughs] 2:30:16 AD: Eşşek is Turkish. 2:30:18 JK: Yes, eş is Armenian, eşşek is Turkish but both of them– there is a lot– I know maybe a hundred or two hundred Turkish words because– 2:30:56 AD: Because of her– 2:30:28 JK: Well because, yeah, well my father I think, I really he was Turkish speaking first, Armenian speaking second, but I heard a lot of Turkish growing up, because most of the Armenians or at least a lot of them spoke Turkish, not all maybe, many of them did and so I heard a lot of it and then the old-timer would say, I know it was not true but the Armenians did not have any swear word or curse words– 2:30:49 AD: I am sure that is not true. [laughs] 2:30:56 JK: Of course it is not! But when the Turks came in, they brought their swear words and curse words with them and the Armenians learned them from the Turks. No, even as a kid, that does not sound right to me–every language has its language, but it is a– 2:31:19 AD: But that is natural if they something like that, after what they went through, I mean I do not blame them, of course they say things like that– 2:31:27 JK: It is just balderdash, no, and I know, I can swear in Turkish, but obviously that is not for mixed company, you know, but not my first cousin George speaks fairly good Turkish because he spent a lot of time with his dad who was from Hajin and he spoke a great deal of Turkish, and he also spoke the Hajin dialect which sounds like Chinese. 2:31:53 AD: What is Hajin? 2:31:54 JK: I wish I could tell you the name, it has been changed now, it is no longer Hajin, it is in– 2:32:00 AD: That is why we have this. 2:32:01 JK: It is North East of Adana in the mountains; Adana, Tarsus, Mersin of the North East corner of your country [laughs]– 2:32:14 AD: My country– 2:32:15 JK: Yeah, well it is your country. I am familiar with it but I do not know it. 2:32:26 AD: Okay, Kilikya, is the ancient name of that region– 2:32:30 JK: Yes. We say– 2:32:31 AD: Hajin, Hajin– 2:32:36 JK: Okay, the Armenians say it is Hajin; H-A-J-I-N–but it is now called something else [Saimbeyli]– 2:32:44 AD: And then, apparently there was a massacre. 2:32:49 JK: This is Adana area, okay, yeah I am guessing, well today it may not be fifty miles or a hundred miles from Adana but, you know, in those days it would have taken a few days– 2:33:01 AD: The new name is this, Saimbeyli. 2:33:02 JK: That is it, that is it. That is the new name. That is ̶ You are right. That was where my uncle was from, and the language– so he spoke Turkish and Armenian and English and the language he spoke, here you go– here we are. 2:33:15 AD: There you go, yes. 2:33:17 JK: Yeah, Adana would be down almost on the Mediterranean, there is our lake, which you claim [laughs]. 2:33:29 AD: Well you know what, who else is also claim that, right? 2:33:31 JK: The Kurds probably, of course. I am not sure who was there first, we only been around three thousand years maybe, so I do not know. 2:33:42 AD: People’s Lake, people’s. 2:33:45 JK: The only thing I can say is I had a wonderful, wonderful meal overlooking the Lake in a Kurdish restaurant and I just– it is funny I cannot tell you what I ate, but it was– God this is good, I am really enjoying it. So, wonderful meal and we went out to Akdamar, there is an Armenian Cathedral there out on an Island and that was interesting and, as I said we were– my group, we started here and we were through here and up in the Black Sea here, over here and around. The only time we flew to Kayseri which was a big city when my dad was a kid and then from Kayseri we were on bus and then we I think from– did we take a plane from Malatya to Ankara back to Polis, Istanbul if I remember, but we covered four thousand miles and most of it was in a bus– 2:34:51 AD: Wow! 2:34:51 JK: And, we got to see a lot of Turkey and Diyarbakir [laughs], we stopped at Kav–kav– how do you say it? 2:34:38 AD: Kervansaray. 2:35:39 JK: Kervansaray, the Saray I have– Okay, it is an old one, wandering around and I had to go to the bathroom, so I went behind it to relief myself and I came out, I am with my sister’s now, Soviet Union my son was– I wish I could have taken my son, this was going home but he just got married, just had a baby. His wife, understandably would have killed both of us and I would have to pay for it but I wish I could have taken him with me but, anyway, I come out [laughs], there is nobody, the bus was gone [laughs] they left me. I said gee my sisters really love me [laughs], they really–But I was in a such good place, I had my camera’s, I had my money, I had my passport, I had everything I needed. I was happy, and I just started walking down the road, and after a while, they realized I was missing [laughs]– 2:36:03 AD: They came back? 2:36:05 JK: They came back for me, yes. But it was funny, I– you think I would have panicked, I do not speak Turkish, I am a foreigner I am in a– in a kind of a rough area of the country because of the Kurdish problems– 2:36:22 AD: Yes, exactly. 2:36:23 JK: Yeah, but I was happy. I was happy. 2:36:25 AD: Oh, that was nice. 2:36:27 JK: But you know, we had a wonderful time. We really did. And of course, Near Eastern hospitality, people were wonderful. I had a merchant in the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul; I figure it is one of the first indoor mall in history. 2:36:45 AD: Yeah, yeah. 2:36:46 JK: But he was selling knock-offs and that is common, Rolex watches, but usually they pass it off as the real thing. He is telling me it is a knock-off, and I figured out it was a knock-off but it was a good one, and he said it is a good quality and we got talking, and– person to person. He is a Turk, I am an Armenian. And he said if the governments would get out the way, he says we could get along. It is the damn governments. 2:37:15 AD: Yeah, it is just political stuff, absolutely, absolutely. 2:37:20 JK: But I remembered him telling me, they are knock-offs– I am saying I have never heard anybody tell me it is a knock-off. He wants me think I am buying the real thing for ten cents on the dollar [laughs]. 2:37:30 AD: So, your son has how many kids? Three, wow! 2:37:42 JK: [Yeah, three] He and his first wife had a daughter. She was cute, personable, bright troubled but unfortunately, she is twenty. And I love her dearly, but, and she has come along way but I got my fingers crossed. I want her very much to go back to school and we have told her, my wife and I told her, and I have told her we will back her, you know, her mom and dad I know cannot really afford to send her to school but they can do something to help, she can do something to help, and then grandma and grandpa will pick up, you know, it is important and she has a good mind I hate to see it go to waste, and– 2:38:32 AD: Yeah, she is so young– 2:38:34 JK: Yeas, keep my fingers crossed, and then the Muk and his first wife adopted a young man from Guatemala. He is going to be fifteen next week, and he is a good kid but he is painfully shy, painfully, painfully, painfully shy. But he is a Maya Indian we have been told and the– like I said he is a good kid, of course I love him. He is a few shades darker than I am but it does not bother me but I guess he is aware of it, he made a comment when Obama was elected that here is the president whose skin color is like mine or close to mine, interesting. And they unfortunately got divorced and the Muk remarried. His first wife was thirteen years older than he. His second wife is thirteen years younger than he. 2:39:39 AD: Wow! So, thirteen is the magic number for him. 2:39:52 JK: I do not know. So the first wife is old enough to be the second wife’s mother. And she is a dear and they– for a lot of reasons– I think made a very stupid mistake; part of me is a very sentimental idealist but I also have a strong practical streak. And in their situation they had no business having a child, but she wanted a child and the Muk said okay, so now we have another grandson who is about twenty-two, twenty-three months old. 2:40:31 AD: Okay, baby. 2:40:32 JK: Yes, he is a toddler, he is a darling little boy but I am very practical I told you, and you do what you could afford to do, not what you cannot afford to do. Well, they are happy, they are madly in love with one another and so now we have a third grandchild, and I hope my son is around when he graduates from high school and I hope my son is around to see him graduate from college– 2:41:03 AD: How old is your son? 2:41:04 JK: He is forty-eight now. 2:41:05 AD: Forty-eight. 2:41:07 JK: Yeah, he is a teacher. 2:41:09 AD: He is a teacher. 2:41:10 JK: He has got two master’s degrees; he is a bright young man. 2:41:15 AD: What does he teach? 2:41:19 JK: Actually now he is teaching fifth grade or sixth grade– 2:41:24 AD: Oh! 2:41:24 JK: Yeah, he did want high school, he wanted middle school and that was–he was there for a while than he got bumped down into the grade school because he has been told by some seasoned professionals that if you going to reach a child, you gotta do it before high school. High school is too late. So, he wanted to deal with younger kids, and I said everybody always told me middle school, junior high school in my day is the worst time or area to teach kids but that was what he wanted, and I spent the day once when we are up there, this is ten or fifteen years ago, and I made sure it was okay with the school and him and I went and I said in the back of the class for a day and watched him, you know– 2:42:15 AD: That is nice. 2:42:17 JK: Yeah, it was neat. I told the service, I realized it– 2:42:21 AD: Yeah, I did not even ask you what your occupation was. 2:42:25 JK: Well, I– mostly I sold insurance and in some investments– 2:42:31 AD: Okay. 2:42:32 JK: Probably, I would say mostly–I work here in the insurance business first in claims then in sales. So basically insurance. 2:42:42 AD: Tough job, insurance. What kind of insurance? 2:42:46 JK: Life, some health, accident, you know, property casualty, mostly life and as my brother in-law he was very successful as a broker said, we look upon insurance as being very tough, nobody wants to spend a hundred dollars for life insurance but they will invest a thousand dollars which may they lose. They want think about that. It is the mindset. 2:43:12 AD: Off the record maybe I need to ask you about that stuff, because I never understood that insurance business. 2:43:19 JK: I could try to be helpful in general terms. I have been retired twenty-three years so, a lot has changed, you know, I have forgotten things, but generally I could help you. 2:43:34 AD: Of course generally. 2:43:37 JK: Absolutely. 2:43:38 AD: So, oh! So, and your son is the teacher? Nice. 2:43:43 JK: He is now in Massachusetts, the money he is making, if he was making it here, would been an entire different story because the dollar goes for much further in Broome Country than it does in Massachusetts. He has got a house that might bring a hundred thousand here, two seventy, two eighty up there. I mean it is just outrageous, outlandish! And I want–see I feel that a parent is supposed to help a child through college, at least the four-year degree. And I do not mean blank checks but I mean helping the child, and I do not know if they can do it. You know, it bothers me. I know how much we have helped him, you know, and I do not mind, listen; if we go to a nursing home, our nest egg is gone, if we do not we go to a nursing home, there will be a little inheritance, but you know at thirty or forty we did not have what we have today, naturally. But, so I worry about those things. They do not obviously. [laughs] 2:44:52 AD: Obviously, yeah. No, I understand your points. Certainly. 2:45:00 JK: But then there are people say know, you graduate from high school, you are done. If they want to go to school, they can do it. They can do it on their own. I do not know how, not today, not in– not in our culture. 2:45:10 AD: No, not in our culture. 2:45:14 JK: You know, my nieces, this is Annie’s brother’s children–in the twenty years between the Muk and them, it tripled the cost of a private school education in this area, the North East. You know, it cost us about seventy grand, the twins, their twins are going at the same time. It was a hundred thousand dollars a year for the two of them–four hundred thousand bucks. Who has that kind of money? 2:45:19 AD: Yeah, I know. 2:45:50 JK: You know, they went off to a private school and a good school but that is not the point. They are– one is attorney now, the other one has not gone further with their education but you know it is– either it is going to be only the wealthy can go to school or there is going to have to be some change in our system. 2:46:14 AD: Yeah, well I think Cuomo was proposing something for college education. 2:46:23 JK: Well, thanks to Berny Sanders, yeah–free tuition to state schools. Tuition only now. That is not books, that is not room and board– 2:46:31 AD: Well, that is a start, right. 2:46:32 JK: Yes, but this is a society that is center-right and I think short-sighted and selfish that is how see it. And you know, we– my son wanted to go a private school, I said I do not know if we could afford it. I said but he wanted badly, he picked the school, he went to Hardwick, up the road here and I said we will try and see what happens. We managed but I said you know if you had a sibling– 2:47:05 AD: Which one did he go? 2:47:08 JK: Hardwick College, Oneonta. 2:47:09 AD: Oh, yeah, yeah. 2:47:11 JK: And it was a good experience for him and I was impressed with some of the professors. There are some good people up there who were there wanted to teach, not nec– not necessarily to publish, but there is a difference, although I am realized publishing is important if you want tenure and you want to make a name for yourself and have a nice paycheck every month [laughs]– 2:47:36 AD: Absolutely. 2:47:37 JK: Which is important, but we are getting off the beaten path here but I hope there will be changes because I was able to go to school, well I had the GI Bill and I had mom, free room and board for three years, I mean, you know. That was a– if I had to come up with money for three years of room and board I could not have gone to school. 2:48:09 AD: That is right. 2:48:10 JK: You know– 2:48:11 AD: That is right, I mean, and you stay with your mom until you are married just like living in Ottoman Empire right? 2:48:21 JK: [laughs] That is the reason I did it. No, not really. 2:48:22 AD: No, but that is what people do, it is more economical, you now, if you start working, you save your money when you get married, so you can have some, you know, to spend on your expenses, whatever. 2:48:41 JK: Well, thanks for dear old mom. [laughs] 2:48:45 AD: Yeah, so but your mum was close to the girls as well? 2:48:53 JK: Oh, yeah. No, we were, we still. There are only two of us left now. We are very close-knit family, very close-knit family. The only people that I have ever known that were closer than my mother and my sister’s and I were my step-grandmother’s children. 2:49:11 AD: Oh! Really? 2:49:12 JK: And they were also, they were the youngest was the male, two older daughters. The three of them were unbelievable. I have never seen anything like it. Very, very close. 2:49:25 AD: So, you kept in touch with them? 2:49:27 JK: Oh, yes, yes. No, they are family, you know, and, oh yes. We have–we have always stayed in touch with them. Marge and Rose are not gone but Russ has still left, and he has– I better be careful, if I am not mistaken, I am going to be eighty-three in April, I think Russel will be eighty-seven in June I think. He is four years older than I am. 2:50:00 AD: Okay, so they are all first generation Armenians right? 2:50:03 JK: Yes, their parents were immigrants. Coincidence my step-grandfather was also from Sebastia/Sivas–nice man. I really liked him. Very pleasant. 2:50:20 AD: So, what I see here is like the survivors when they arrived this country, you know as young adults or teenagers or whatever, so they all married with Armenians, pretty much right? 2:50:41 JK: Oh! Yes, if not a hundred percent, very, very, very close. Out of necessity, you want to be with the people that you know at least culturally. Most of them came penniless. Let’s not kid anybody. My father came with some money, I remember telling me that he had it around under his clothing, you know, around his waist. 2:51:12 AD: Because he arrived before the Genocide– 2:51:14 JK: Yeah, 1913, and we did go, my son and I and my wife, and my sister-in-law went to Ellis Island, the old Ellis Island when it was in ruins. And that was a phenomenal experience, and I said God, I am walking in my father’s footsteps. I went up the staircase that he had come down. It was a group and everybody in the group was either first generation immigrant like I was or there were a couple of them maybe in the second generation and we had a few that were actually, who had actually come through Ellis Island. They were immigrants, and one Jewish gentleman was in a wheelchair, he had his family with him, and I am not sure why he asked me why I was there and I told him, and I said my father had come to avoid conscription from the Ottoman Turkish Empire, and he said that was why we came. They were all, until Jews from what is now Syria I believe if I remember correctly, and his older brother was going to be conscripted, and they wanted to avoid that and they came to America. He was a kid, he was like you know four, five, six years old or something, you know, but it was a wonderful, wonderful experience because the new one is worthwhile but it is like new Museum. This is– was the original buildings and in there some places they are falling down, falling apart, you had to climb over, rubbish and rubble and, you could almost– hear the footprints, the footsteps– 2:53:00 AD: Absolutely. 2:53:01 JK: It was. [getting emotional] 2:53:04 AD: Very emotional. 2:53:06 JK: Yeah, it was, it was neat, it was– we have been back to the new place, it is nice but– 2:53:14 AD: It is not the same thing. 2:53:16 JK: Not the same thing. It is like when I went to Armenia, Soviet Armenia. It was nice, it is Armenia, but it is not home. You know, and I realized that talking to them, to one of the folks here, I am going back fifty, sixty years, he had retired, I said would you like to go to Armenia. He said no, that is not where we are from– not where I am from, that is not home. 2:53:42 AD: I agree. 2:53:43 JK: And he said besides, he said, and I did realize my parents were both had some education, they could read or write, he said I cannot read or write a word in any language, he said, you know, how I am going to get around [laughs], and I said oh, I just assumed they all had some basic education, I did not realize that many of them did not. You know, they lived in rural areas where you have to have more money because there were no schools, you had to send your children to like a boarding school or they just did not have any money and mom and dad could not possibly send them to school. 2:54:24 AD: I think people mostly lived in Istanbul, they got more education. 2:54:31 JK: Oh, sure it is the big city– 2:54:32 AD: Yeah, I think that was what happened during that time because education was not mandatory. 2:54:40 JK: No, Sivas, when my mother was there was a city of about eighty thousand approximately. There were fifty thousand Turks, thirty thousand Armenians, when we were there in (19)96, it is about a quarter of a million, and I do not know if there is a hundred Armenians. We ran into a few, uh, looking for them but you know, as I asked a woman once, a Turkish woman, up at Colgate, there was the movie that what the hell is his name, Armenian-Canadian, Canadian-Armenian director, Atom– I cannot think of the gentleman’s name, anyway, they were showing it up there and she was asking some questions because she was incredulous that there was a Genocide and so I said to her, here is the proximate figures, fifty thousand Turks, thirty thousand Armenians today, there is a quarter million people and there is a few dozen Armenians, tell me where they went, if there was not a genocide, there should be now a hundred thousand Armenians for God’s sake– 2:55:52 AD: What did she say? 2:55:55 JK: She did not have anything to– she did not know– what could she say. But you know, but she was buying the party line that the government says, no there was dislocation, there was World War One was going on, there was a civil war, and the Armenians were accused of doing all sort of wonderful things, and I am thinking, wait a minute; they took all the arms away from the civilians, you know, you might have had a hunting rifle or a pistol or something, with our bare hands we did all this damage to the Turks! How did we do that? We are really a superior race! [laughs] It was– but of course if this is all you know, now when were in Turkey, nobody said they knew, but several people said we have heard things. You know, we know something happened, we do not know what. It was interesting! Even though the official story is that there was no genocide. 2:57:00 AD: They all know; they just did not want to talk about– 2:57:04 JK: You think, okay– 2:57:06 AD: Yeah. 2:57:07 JK: Yeah, because I know in Averek, Develi we were in, it is a mosque now, we were in an old Armenian Church and across the street Armenian–on a couple of the homes, and I think one was the priest home and I was thinking geez this is probably the church my father and his family went to a hundred years ago, or ninety years ago. And it was what amazed me is that it was huge, not outside, it did not look that big the way it was done and the way it was sitting. 2:57:47 AD: It was in Sivas? 2:57:51 JK: No, this is in Averek, Develi. It is today Develi. 2:57:58 AD: Averek, oh, Develi. 2:57:59 JK: And, it– remember, you may not know this. The orthodox Churches in the old world do not have benches. They do not have pews. You stand. You could have probably put a thousand people in this place. It was huge, huge! They let us in. They were very nice, and I just marveled at the size of it, you know, and again the majority of people would have been Turks not Armenians. We would have been a minority but– 2:58:33 AD: I do not know, maybe we would find something– 2:58:36 JK: Now, see my mother in Sivas, there were four or five Armenian Churches, and one of them– 2:58:40 AD: Yes, because it is bigger. 2:58:42 JK: It is a bigger city, more Armenians and they lived near the Cathedral and it is now gone, there are two banks on the side where the cathedral was but she said they lived right down the street from it. So I walked down the street, my mother, you know– it was right next to the “Down Town”, there is like not a square but like a square where the government buildings are in Sivas and the churches right off where the church location was right off from that but I wish we had, of course it would have changed in a hundred years or whatever but, I wish there was a number or a some kind of identifying, something that we say wow this is where my mother lived, you know, but there is nothing–we do not have any information just that we know where the Cathedral, the Church was and it was down the street so, was down the street a hundred yards or half a mile– 2:59:46 AD: If you knew the address, all those records are in Ottoman archives. 2:59:53 JK: Well, my question is because in many places I am under the impression, they did not necessarily let–like in this country we have two, four, six, eight– they did not do that. They did not number homes, and did they in the Ottoman Era? I do not know. 3:00:09 AD: Yeah, there is a record, like–when–my research was in Turkish Republic Period, so they had numbering system but, uh, for Ottoman, with name they were recording the property under the name, whoever owned, they were– and also think about this, they had house, they did not have apartment complex like– 3:00:46 JK: Oh, no, no, yeah– 3:00:47 AD: You know what I mean? 3:00:49 JK: Each person had their own little– 3:00:50 AD: So they were registered under people’s name. 3:00:54 JK: Okay. 3:00:55 AD: Because one time I did a research for Ottoman period, it was in Istanbul, I had to come up with a map showing the doctors–doctors’ offices– 3:01:10 JK: Hekim [Doctor in Turkish]. 3:01:11 AD: Yeah. And then I– so it is – it was–it is registered under people’s name. And those records are in Archives. 3:01:24 JK: Yeah, but you have to have someone who can read the Arabic script, the Arabic Turkish– 3:01:31 AD: Yeah, there are so many people who can do that. I learnt some. I can read some but mine is not that good but there are so many people who can read. But you need to have some kind of information– 3:01:44 JK: You know, but I do not know the name of the street, I know what street it is but then my grandfather and I do not know why, the family–his brother was a kasap, a butcher, so that the family name was Kasabian and at some point he said no that was not the proper name and he changed his name. I do not know about my uncle, my great uncle to Zopaburian, he said Zopabourian is the proper family name, what it means, where it came from I do not have a clue– 3:02:19 AD: Zopabourian. 3:02:20 JK: Zopabourian, yeah but then in just give you an idea– 3:02:24 AD: What is Zopabour, I do not know. 3:02:26 JK: I do not know. I do not either. I have never heard of the name before or the word. That does not mean anything. 3:02:30 AD: That is not Turkish. Because Zapabour is not Turkish. 3:02:35 JK: No, it is probably Armenian but what it means I do not have a clue, but because– he graduated from high school in 1895, my grandfather. 3:02:49 AD: But that was a very high level education. 3:02:52 JK: Then, yes. Even here if you are high school graduate you were someone special back then or in Western Europe. 3:03:00 AD: For that time period that was a very high level. 3:03:03 JK: So, he and in that– again it is Armenian so I can read it. We have got a picture in one of the, not a text book but a history book that I have, and it is a graduate class and he is in it, but in that I have had someone who could read Armenian his name is Kasabian, okay, even though later he said that was not the proper name, and he changed it. 3:03:28 AD: So, every record in– whatever record is left in Turkey if they are there, if they are not touched, everything should be under that name, Kasabian– 3:03:44 JK: Rather than the change later. Yeah, and we have got –my sister’s got– she may have showed it to you– 3:03:51 AD: She showed us– 3:03:52 JK: A photograph with the back got my grandfather stamp in three languages. 3:03:57 AD: Yes. 3:03:57 JK: Yeah, and that was kind of neat, and I do not know if you ̶ probably do not remember but what is interesting is the photograph is of my sister’s uncle and wife; brother of their father. 3:04:17 AD: Okay, she was saying stuff I do not remember. 3:04:20 JK: Coincidence that he took their picture in the old country then– and before the genocide that family came, 1913, they came to Philadelphia, I do not know why, I do not have the clue but it was Manoushag and Berjouhi’s dad’s brother and he is the one who outlived all his siblings and his mother and he was the black sheep of the family, he was, from everybody, what everybody tells I knew him as a kid but he was a real SOB and a crook and abandoned and he was the one who lived naturally [laughs]. 3:04:56 AD: Isn’t that life? Right? 3:05:00 JK: I guess, and he was not that old but I mean he was– yeah he was not seventy when he died, because I remember him when he died vaguely but I always got kick out of the fact that he took a picture of his daughter’s future brother-in-law. You know, I know it is serendipity but it is coincidence but you wonder about those things, you know. 3:05:25 AD: Yeah, absolutely. 3:05:27 JK: And I am told his wife was an SOB also, lovely woman, beloved according to that photograph. She is a lovely, lovely woman but I guess her personality was not lovely. [laughs] 3:05:40 AD: Probably, probably. 3:05:42 JK: Okay, I am off to be in path again, I am sorry. 3:05:44 AD: No, no, no this is the history, yeah, so now. What else I was going to ask, so you– so your son is accepting his identity as Armenian identity? 3:06:03 JK: Oh, yeah identifying as Armenian. 3:06:09 AD: His children? No. 3:06:14 JK: Annie, no. Annie is name for a grandmother. [laughs] She is, she identifies with it. I do not know if Mark does. He has got an Armenian name. But he is a Maya Indian, there is a wonderful proud history there. But he is adopted– 3:06:41 AD: He is adopted. 3:06:46 JK: You know, and he knows it. He is completely accepted, but I do not know because he is such a shy kid and such a quiet kid, I do not know what he feels, what he thinks. Adopted children sometimes, quite often have problems– 3:06:59 AD: Yeah, but your granddaughter accepts, or– 3:07:01 JK: Well she thinks of herself, as being parts of Armenian. Whether Mark does it or not, I do not know, and of course a little eşşek is he is, I mean, you know, he is [laughs]– 3:07:13 AD: He is too young. 3:07:16 JK: He is young, yeah, he is just a little whatever. 3:07:20 AD: And your son is being a teacher and all hopefully he will help his children, you know, especially the natural– 3:07:30 JK: All of them I hope. 3:07:33 AD: Biological children hopefully at least– 3:07:38 JK: Yeah. 3:07:38 AD: –Will continue to accept. 3:07:43 JK: Well no, he is a high, or he is part high, certainly. He was blessed, he had two magnificent grandmothers and he identifies with both sides, of course his grandmother is the English lady, the English woman. Grandpa was the Irishman and Dad Sullivan would not admit it but one of his four grandparents was English. I mean that is a no, no. That is– the English treated the Irish almost as badly as the Ottoman Empire treated the Armenians. I mean the English were, if you know your history, you know how they treated everybody in the Near East. The English were wonderful diplomats and liars [laughs]. 3:08:35 AD: Yeah, you know, we are recording this so let me not talk about that [laughs], so off the record I can tell you how I think? 3:08:43 JK: I am sorry I forgot that is on! 3:08:48 AD: [laughs] Yeah, so, you wanted to go see the homeland. 3:08:53 JK: Oh, yes, my goal was, when I was young is I hope one day, I will have the money and I can take my mother and Mrs. Abashian, Cathy’s grandmother, and take them both back and well, it never happened. The day came when I had the money to go but– 3:09:17 AD: They were not there anymore. 3:09:20 JK: Well, no they were–no no, (19)80– (19)86 my mother was still alive, I am not sure Mrs. Abashian, Aunt Esgouhi died at a year or two before my mother, but they were old and sick and not well, you know, they would not have–it would have been impossible. So, the first trip, well the only Armenian we knew was the Soviet Armenia so we went there and actually we were there about three and a half weeks, Russia, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and it was exhausting but it was a wonderful trip. But that was a long time to live out of suitcase, God! And worthwhile, and my sisters and I went, and we took the Muk, I took the Muk. Took him out of school, he was a good student and no problems. I wanted to make sure they were not going to– because he was graduating, I did not want to–he was senior in high school, I did not want to cause any problems with the school–And they said no problem. I said give it to me in writing please [laughs] I wanted a letter from the school and they did and I gotta tell you this story, they gave him a textbook, so he could do some reading, why not. And he was taking a course on the Third Reich– 3:10:44 AD: Oh, wow! 3:10:48 JK: You know about Hitler and the Nazis and there is Hitler’s picture on the paperback cover and the swastika and all so we get to the Leningrad, that was where we flew in, and we go through customs and we had a young custom’s officer; eighteen, twenty years old, not more than a kid himself. He saw that book. He almost passed out. He went pale. I mean, the look on his face and I tried to explain to him, it was a textbook, it was anti-fascist, against fascism, and said– he cannot bring that in, he got his boss, he did not speak any English, and we did not speak any Russian and his boss came in and again we went through the same, they said no, cannot take it in. They gave me a receipt, they said when you leave the country, you can get it back, and we were leaving three and a half weeks later, I said I want to see, and I said can get this back, they gave it back to us. They had it but the fear, the shock it was so, so obvious and after my experience in the Soviet Union I came home and I said, the Russian people will never start a war with us. I cannot say that about the American people. American people are besides being ignorant, are something else, but we spoke to some people who said, you know, we do not have enough freedom. This is the days of Gorbachev. We do not have enough freedom. We want–we would like more freedom not as much as you have in America. You have a little too much freedom, but we would like more freedom. It was quite interesting and when you think that–and Americans, I know, do not know this but it is safe to say probably twelve to fifteen percent of the Soviet Union population was killed, forget the wounded, killed in World War II. These people really do not want another war and the government that is something else. The governments are you know– 3:13:06 AD: Absolutely. 3:13:06 JK: But it was just, we had a wonderful time but Armenia was–and what we did not really, completely understand is the Armenian we spoke–speak which is the Western Armenian is not the Eastern Armenian which is spoken in the Soviet Union. So, most of them could not understand us, and we could not understand most of them, uh– 3:13:30 AD: Different dialects– 3:13:31 JK: Oh, very, very different, uh, but we managed but it was very difficult, very difficult. But there are some people that their root come from the West or who spoke Western Armenian and Obviously there is no problem communicating with them but that was not true with most of them, and I think the Armenians in Northern, at least Northern Iran, Azerbaijan and Iran also speak that dialect or very similar– or again–we had trouble communicating– 3:14:14 AD: Yeah, well same thing with the Turkish. The Turkish they speak is different in Azerbaijan– 3:14:23 JK: But we had Turkish speaking people with us and they were able to communicate very easily, with the Azeris. 3:14:34 AD: Yeah, but it is not the same. 3:14:36 JK: I am sure you are right but I remember that. 3:14:38 AD: Basics, you understand them but some of those things are different. I mean they speak Turkish but the regional differences, I should say. The accent or, or the words they use. 3:14:56 JK: I know when I was in Mexico, my cousin would say they are from Argentina, and all I am hearing is Spanish from both of them but she is a native Mexican, they are not speaking Mexican Spanish, that is Argentine’s Spanish. 3:15:10 AD: Well, same thing with Arabic. 3:15:13 JK: Well, I am sure every language. 3:15:16 AD: All these countries, you know, the Arabic they speak in Lebanese is different, then Egypt is different, you know it is like, that is normal because ̶ 3:15:26 JK: Look at this country, go to the deep South– 3:15:29 AD: Exactly. 3:15:30 JK: They sound strange to us and they think–they think we sound strange. [laughs] 3:15:35 AD: I know, I know. Well, I think I asked all the questions I had in my mind. Thank you so much for your time because it is almost five o’clock, can you believe that? 3:15:53 JK: Yeah, I talk a lot, I am sorry. 3:15:55 AD: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So and if you want to add anything later on, I am sure we will see each other again, we can talk so I am just going to turn this off now. 3:16:07 JK: Okay, be my guest. 3:16:09 AD: Thank you. (End of Interview II) Biographical Text Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian is retired from insurance sales and is a first generation Armenian-American who was born in Binghamton. Both his parents left Turkey during the genocide. Jerry and his wife have a son and three grandchildren and they continue to reside in Binghamton. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a567397dc101197eb32b12ff69440b05.mp3 326cdff6d156ff0c88ec470e5d66ec2d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2/21/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Jr. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:09 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Digital Format Sound Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian, Jr. Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 21 February 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 AD: Yes, so today is February 21, 2017. And I am interviewing with Jerry Kalayjian Junior. 00:15 JK: Junior. That is right. 00:16 AD: Yes. Yeah. So now I want to ask you to pronounce your full name for me. 00:21 JK: Well my given name is Gerald Michael Kalayjian Jr. But I go by Jerry. 00:26 AD: Jerry. 00:27 JK: As my father did. 00:28 AD: Okay. So when and where were you born? 00:32 JK: I was born in here in Binghamton, November 15, 1968. I think at Binghamton General Hospital. That is interesting. I am not sure which hospital I know I was born in Binghamton. 00:42 AD: Yeah, that must be right. Either Lourdes or Binghamton General. 00:46 JK: It was not Lourdes. So it must have been in- 00:48 AD: Yeah. 00:49 JK: Yeah. It had to be Binghamton General. 00:50 AD: So and you grew up here? 00:52 JK: I grew up in Johnson City. 00:54 AD: Okay. So how, how would you describe of your childhood. 01:01 JK: Oh, interesting, in hindsight is, you know, pushing fifty and having children of my own almost idyllic at the time I was, I think I could not wait to get out of this area. It seemed like there was nothing to do as a child it was boring is dreary. And in hindsight, it was almost perfect. Almost the entire family on both sides are here in this community. So I saw my grandparents all the time. My aunts my uncles, cousins. There was, no there was no crime to speak of. You know, you I walked from kindergarten I walk to school like a mile or more than the things today that might get arrested for letting your kid walk to school. Now it was it was very pleasant, very good. I was lucky in that regard, I think an only child so I got maybe a little more attention that I might have wanted, but [laughs] overall, I was it was a good childhood. I was lucky. 01:59 AD: So the did you think you were like any other American kid in your school? 02:07 JK: Oh interesting. Um yes and no. For instance, this is a little embarrassing, but the only people that I knew who had toasters, I thought I thought toast was Armenian. For the longest time I thought toast was I know it sounds silly, but we had a toaster. My aunt's had toasters. And I am sure other people had toasters, but I never saw other people have toasters. So that and even though I am English and Irish and my mother side the Armenian without question I do not know looms larger. I mean, I am only half Armenian and yet, in terms of what identify as hell that is obviously how I look, I do not look very English or Irish. There is a freckle here somewhere. 02:49 AD: Yeah. 02:50 JK: But the Armenian and identity is larger in my mind, in the front of everything. So it was definitely a bigger piece of my growing up, I mean there was there were food, food is probably the first way in which things started to differentiate. Even though like sandwiches my mother sent me to school with you know, all my friends had white bread and you know cheese and ketchup or like damn, maybe a slice of ham and some mayonnaise and I came in with these bag woods with you know, vegetables, cele-not celery I am sorry, cucumber lettuce and you know, good big thick sandwiches that by the time I was, I was in middle school, I when a boy really starts to eat, you know, and we were just kind of ̶ I was bringing six or seven to school I was eating four but I was selling to because of my friends wanted it you know. 03:44 AD: Selling sure. 03:45 JK: Right yeah selling a small entrepreneurial spirit there. But the ̶ I was exposed to different foods you know the ethnic foods we would if we traveled restaurants, you know, we would seek out or if we just last night, my parents, we were driving, to have dinner with friends and drove by a place over on the west side that was a Czech restaurant they had never seen before. My father was all excited. It is always to try to see what it is. So I felt like I was constantly I never felt is an outsider by any means. But there was an exposure to culture that I do not think all my friends had, you know, that there was a prisoner lens that the world was looked at and looked through. And, you know, it was it was a thing of excitement or interest or curiosity. 04:37 AD: Yeah, so did you have like, in your school, let us go back to elementary school, were there like some kids like some immigrants or some, you know, fairly, or like first-generation, like Polish or I do not know ̶ 04:58 JK: Yeah we had, um so I am forty-eight. So 19, late (19)70s. I am in fifth fourth, fifth into sixth grade. And we had a large influx of Laotian kids and families coming in from an after effective. And in Viet ̶ I think we had some Vietnamese and Laotian kids. Again, impact from the war in Vietnam. Everybody of Eastern European origin had been here a few generations at that point. There were no people of color Johnson City was remarkably white. 05:33 AD: No because that falls ̶ that, that was the time of the [indistinct] ̶ 05:37 JK: The [indistinct] yeah. Yeah not in our school district. I think one young man was African American in our graduating class with a couple of three Laotian kids and the rest of us were ̶ 05:50 AD: So when the people ask you at school or, or if they cover that kind of like ethnicity or family history, you know, like, what is your family history or whatever? I mean, did you identify yourself as you know, my paternal side is Armenia or something? 06:11 JK: I would not have used paternal until I was older but Armenian, English and Irish, and kind of descending order of percentages, but and then I would have to explain what Armenian was and where Armenia was because nobody knew what Armenian was, it was before the Kardashians well and unfortunately, you know, Kim Kardashian is a [indistinct] ̶ 06:30 AD: Yeah I do not know if that was a good thing or not but. 06:33 JK: Well before that, it was Dr. Kevorkian. So depends on how you look at his work, I guess. And I have to explain, you know, where that was what that was. People were like are you Italian or Cuban. Apparently I am dark enough that it could be a lot of different things. So people would asked and I'd say Armenia and they would be like wow where is ̶ Because at that point, it would have been part of the Soviet Union was not its own country. Had not been in the history, you know, in the front page of the news for a hundred years people did not know. 07:05 AD: No, no. 07:06 JK: And even now, they might not really. 07:09 AD: No not really. So, but your last name? I mean, were they asking you like your teachers, or did they have hard time spelling, pronouncing it? 07:24 JK: Oh, spelling for sure. And they would have been ̶ 07:31 AD: Okay. Yeah, no, no. 07:34 JK: They would have been certainly mispronunciation and I know, I am not sure about Elementary School. I am just getting to that age where that is starting to get fuzzy. But certainly Middle School, teachers would ask, you know where that what is that? Where is it from? And I would explain that the I-A-N means son of kind of the O in O'Brian the Mac in MacDonald and supposedly Kalayji is the ̶ was the artisan who would have recovered the pots after the copper wore away. So we were told ̶ 08:04 AD: That is right. We ̶ Your father and I look at some images. 08:07 JK: Oh you looked it up? 08:09 AD: Yeah. 08:10 JK: How interesting oh very cool. 08:11 AD: Yeah, yeah we did. 08:12 JK: It is funny I never thought to do that in this age of Google and the internet, but so yeah there would have been mispronunciations, misspellings galore. 08:21 AD: Yes so these are ̶ So apparently your great, great grandfather. He was, they were probably was a family business. 08:35 JK: Right. 08:35 AD: You know. I was talking to my Kurdish student yesterday and I was telling him that still is a-a this is ̶ 08:49 JK: Something that still is viable. 08:50 AD: It is. 08:51 JK: Life, um, profession. 08:53 AD: That is part of a guild, you know, artisanship. So and you just learn, you know, start. 09:01 JK: Father to son, to daughter. 09:02 AD: Exactly, exactly. Oh even ̶ 09:04 JK: My aunt has one of those I have not seen it years but I know she used to have it out on her coffee table a very large sized, almost saucer ish pan or platter of that size ̶ 09:19 AD: They were using to cook because you know when they cook they have to cook like is there in a bigger pot type of thing even, even now I mean it is like the culture you somebody make more, more of it. 09:34 JK: Oh yeah there is never enough. 09:35 AD: Yeah, it is never right. So that those were like, but now in in today's culture. I have a like little I do not have it here. It is in my mother's house. It was like a water pitcher type of thing ̶ copper. But it is ̶ it, it does not make that function anymore. It is preserved as a like an ornament, you know ̶ 10:02 JK: Something pretty to look at. 10:04 AD: Exactly because it is old. But that is, that is what it is. So I am sure in Anatolia in Asia Minor Still, this is like people still take their big pots. 10:20 JK: Well but some of these images certainly seen. 10:22 AD: Yeah, new. 10:25 JK: You know the black and white that might be rare to but these look like new photos that ̶ 10:27 AD: Even that does not look old. I mean, I am sure this is- 10:30 JK: That is wonderful. 10:32 AD: Very current I do not know where he is. 10:36 JK: You know it is funny you say ̶ 10:38 AD: Yeah, look, it is two thousand fifteen. So somebody ̶ 10:42 JK: So there is still [indistinct] 10:44 AD: He went here, he was ̶ He had an interest and he wanted to go and so these are the people. He does not mention the area. But so he is still doing it. 11:06 JK: That is neat. 11:09 AD: I mean, I am even sure you can still find these people probably it is like dying out, but ̶ 11:18 JK: Thank you for showing ̶ I never ̶ I cannot believe I have never thought to look it up. 11:21 AD: Yeah. So that was the ̶ that was the job. 11:26 JK: I look at what sillier things I will tell you. 11:29 AD: Well, you never thought about it probably so but this is, this was the job. 11:34 JK: That palace look at that. Yeah, it is funny you mentioned like always having more and more food my, my mother's mother, you know just daughters of the American Revolution eight to seven-eight ancestors on the Mayflower. The stories from because my. My uncle is a first generation Italian. And so my aunt married a first generation my mother obviously did and apparently the story is like in the (19)60s, she could never took me years to understand that she did not. She was always worried she had not cooked enough. Because they were both depression era babies. They were both grown men in their part and they would whatever's on the table they would eat. You just ate whatever was there and you kept eating. And she could never cook enough and it took her long to realize that she did not have to keep cooking. She could stop him when he was done they would be done and it would be okay. But there is different cultures you know? 12:24 AD: Yeah. 12:24 JK: You have a small servings and very different. 12:28 AD: So even though your mom is not Armenian, but she like your sandwich. Obviously she was making your sandwich. 12:38 JK: Oh yeah absolutely. 12:39 AD: So she got into that. 12:42 JK: She did no question. Yeah pilav, lahmacun. There was one little black mark against it. And apparently you do not like lahmacun? 12:50 AD: Yeah [laughs] 12:53 JK: But you know. 12:54 AD: I never did it is weird. 12:55 JK: Not really, yeah everyone likes what they like. My father loves this stuff. 13:01 AD: I know we discussed that. 13:03 JK: She never made, my aunt's the family cook Manooshag I think your student may have interviewed. 13:10 AD: No, I went. 13:11 JK: Oh you interviewed? Okay, I knew so somebody did. And she is always like theology the things that take hours and hours to prepare. She, she would be the one to do that. I do not know that my mother ever did those. But a lot of ̶ the ̶ I guess easier dishes were certainly you know, we had a lot. Without question, pilav is a staple. Lahmacun as a kid was a staple. But yeah no she definitely ̶ 13:36 AD: Oh they were making lahmacun at home? 13:38 JK: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 13:39 AD: Okay. So that is one item like in, you know, growing up you always go buy at the kebab store. 13:46 JK: When I ̶ 13:47 AD: You do not really make it in the ̶ 13:48 JK: There was no store out here that you could, you know, find it. When I moved to Boston, I moved to Watertown, not quite realizing I was moving into like little Armenia, and the yeah, yeah you could buy all of it just walk out and go to any little mom and pop shop around the corner. Around here if you wanted it, you had to make it yourself. Or you ̶ I do not know, my aunt lived in ̶ my other aunt lived in New Jersey, just outside New York City. And so sometimes if we went to visit we would find things there but ̶ 14:15 AD: I want to continue about your childhood, but I, I do not want to forget. So when you moved in Boston area, did you particularly move in the Armenian district? You wanted to ̶ 14:27 JK: It was accidental. It was completely accidental ̶ 14:29 AD: So you were not looking for Armenian. 14:31 JK: No, a friend of mine from college was there and I was ̶ had finished one job and ̶ further upstate New York and he is like Jerry come to Boston and I am like, okay, I will come to Boston and we were looking for places to live. And we found an apartment in Watertown. That was ̶ 14:45 AD: And he is not Armenian? 14:47 JK: No, he is, he is ̶ Well he is adopted, so he is not really sure but his parents are English, Canadian. And it just ̶ it, it-serendipity, we ended up you know, literally a block from where the concentration of all the storefronts are with ̶ you know, I was walking around ̶ I am a little slow-walking around I am like, that sounds familiar. Well you know people talking in Armenian all around me I am like, why have not I this ̶ and then I finally put it together after a couple of days that you know ̶ that this is you know, Armenian, everyone around me is Armenian. And it was wonderful after that. 15:22 AD: So did you engage with the community like did you go introduce yourself. 15:28 JK: No, not really. I have. It is interesting. My father would call himself a Christian. And because of the genocide, we have had this conversation feels like he had to be ̶ like there was an obligation a moral obligation to believe and to follow that path because his grandfather had died for it. And, but we never ̶ 15:53 AD: We never, I never discussed that ̶ 15:55 JK: Yeah, because ̶ 15:57 AD: So, what ̶ He sums it up as the religion not ethnicity? 16:02 JK: The combination ̶ Apparently as the famous story goes my grandfather was one of two photographers in Sivas or Sebastia as the Armenians call it. And because of that, or for any other number of reasons, I guess, was well connected in some way with the-the Turkish community, I guess or had enough inroads that he was warned that trouble was coming and convert ̶ you know you can be a closet Christian, but convert and save your family. And apparently, on the grounds of faith refused, would not do it. And for whatever reason that my father, and I do not think I knew this until I was an adult, and I do not really remember how it came up, probably in a conversation because I am not a person of faith. And I remember questioning things pretty early on in at least one case, giving a parish priest fits. Though my father he felt like he had to be somehow like he owed it. And there is no question in my mind. I have read things about Holocaust survivors and their children and the children had a certain amount of guilt over what their parents experienced, despite the fact that as a child you could not-and he has some of that like-I do not remember what the technical term would be. 17:24 AD: I am, I am sure ̶ 17:25 JK: But he feels ̶ That more than just [indistinct] sat on the back of his mother, but, you know, there is an obligation or should ̶ It is interesting. 17:34 AD: I mean I am sure religion was an important factor I mean look at today. This is twenty first century ̶ 17:41 JK: We have not grown past the ̶ 17:43 AD: I am sorry, it is like, it is standstill. Why cannot we just move forward? I am sure there is an aspect of religion because people were very religious at that time. Certainly, that area was religious. 18:04 JK: Oh, sure. 18:05 AD: I am certain of it ̶ But I think there are other like ̶ 18:08 JK: Oh there is certain other factors historically speaking. 18:10 AD: Economic factors. I think to me that is like a bigger factor because ̶ 18:15 JK: Oh I think so. I think ̶ Being an amateur historian, if you will, my grandmother, we do not know how old she was. Her period had not started. 18:25 AD: Yeah. 18:25 JK: At the beginning of the genocide. So we are figuring she was thirteen ish, maybe. 18:30 AD: Yeah, probably. 18:30 JK: But you know, so all the stories are filtered through a child's memory even as she was telling them as an adult. In fact, we just found out her stepmother, her sister and her stepmother survived ̶ the stepmother move ̶ made several moves to Troy, New York and had a new family. And I forget how it was over ̶ I was Facebook messaging with a cousin and my grandmother's stepmother had ̶ would have been so if my grandmother's thirteen she was maybe twenty something ̶ she was young woman ̶ 19:05 AD: Yeah. 19:05 JK: But apparently they had seen my gran ̶ my great grandfather's body his body had been discovered, which was something this chunk of the family had never known. So I mean I am assuming the stories my grandmother has are valid, but through the lens of a young girl who may have been sheltered from some of it. 19:21 AD: Oh yeah. 19:22 JK: You know, you worship your parents at that age. You know, so my father sacrificed himself and you know, the altar of faith. I do not ̶ How much veracity there is to that, but that is the story. 19:36 AD: We did not really discuss the religion aspect. 19:39 JK: We, we ̶ I never-my parents never went to church. I mean, weddings, funerals, you know holidays. 19:43 AD: Okay so you were not a regular church going ̶ 19:46 JK: No my aunt would take me. 19:47 AD: Okay. 19:48 JK: My aunt would come pick me up, Manooshag would come pick me up and bring me so I do not know if it is, you know, they say like if your pants do not go you just tend to stray, but I was seven, eight years old and, poor father George. I started asking about, I still had questions that did not make ̶ And part of it for me was the genocide. Like, here is this horrible, terrible thing. How could an all-powerful loving God, let this happen? So I do not know, at some point, ten, fifteen years later, that conversation probably led to me figuring out finding out my father felt he had to be a Christian or, you know, in his heart in his mind, despite the fact that he is not a get up and going to church kind of person he feels obligated. 20:30 AD: Yeah, no, no, that is ̶ That is understandable. Absolutely, absolutely. 20:36 JK: It is interesting. It is curious how the mind works. But yeah, makes sense to me. 20:41 AD: Yeah. So you did not ̶ 20:43 JK: Oh I am sorry so the original question ̶ 20:44 AD: Engagement ̶ 20:45 JK: I did not engage in the community. No, I did not so I mean, I was never I worked as a kid here. But there was a Sunday school program up through I do not know, my teens, and I had a ̶ I had a morning paper route-getting up at five, six. In the morning delivering the local paper at that point, and I wanted ̶ And I am a teenager and surly and crumpy and like any other teen and I did not want to go anymore. My parents let me stop. So that that connection is not as strong as it would be. I have had cousins who are immersed in all things Armenian and ̶ 21:19 AD: Yeah? 21:19 JK: Oh, absolutely. If you really want there is a family reunion coming up in August, we could really hook you up. 21:25 AD: When in August? 21:27 JK: I think the first weekend it is the fourth or the fifth. There is seventy-seven up and cousins are coming back into town. 21:34 AD: For them. I will not be- 21:35 JK: I would have to have a camera out ̶ I am not sure. 21:37 AD: Oh, you know what ̶ Can you send me the dates. 21:40 JK: Sure, sure. 21:40 AD: Because around that time, I will be coming back. So with jet lag from ̶ I will show up and [laughter] 21:49 JK: Yeah we could absolutely do that. 21:51 AD: Yeah, oh so family reunion. 21:53 JK: Yeah we, we did it, it has been a number of years. My mother coordinated it the first couple times. We rent a pavilion in one of the local parks. Because at this point, everybody has pretty much left town and my father and my aunt are the only two of that generation left. And everybody in my generation lives elsewhere. You interviewed George Rejebian and he has got two kids that will be coming back. Gary and Vivian. And then ̶ 22:20 AD: Yeah I need to give you this ̶ Well, I am going to email you the CD because ̶ 22:24 JK: Sure! 22:24 AD: We need to also edit yours ̶ 22:26 JK: Absolutely. 22:27 AD: But do not you worry. That is no problem. 22:28 JK: Thank you, thank you. 22:29 AD: Yeah. No problem. 22:30 JK: And then George's sister, Margaret, who died. And he is twenty, twenty-one, she died almost twenty-one years ago. Her three kids should be coming back into town to so you know the same generation as myself. And they are descended from my grandmother's sister. Two of them, the two survivors ̶ 22:50 AD: Okay. 22:50 JK: Who came to this community and so yeah you, you are definitely ̶ 22:54 AD: Bunch of Armenians. Yeah. 22:56 JK: Yeah, yeah. 22:57 AD: Yeah so did you learn any Armenian, from your dad or from ̶ Oh how close were you with your grandmother? Because she was still alive. 23:08 JK: Oh she was ̶ Yes, she was alive. She died in ninety-two. So I was in my early twenties. 23:15 AD: Yeah. 23:16 JK: I am going to have to stop and do the math but and she had, had dementia for probably starting when I was early mid-teens. It was starting to slip the memory and by the ti ̶ there was some wonderful experiences where we would visit her in the nursing home and she thought I was my father as a boy and she thought my father was her father. And you know, so the conversations got pretty interesting. And then at one point, all this all this, all the staff and the nursing home were all Turks and she was totally paranoid and ̶ 23:49 AD: They were Turks? 23:50 JK: They were but she ̶ You know someone with dementia or Alzheimer's they get paranoid. 23:56 AD: Ah, okay, okay. 23:57 JK: She would have her cardigan stuffed with you know, tissues and all kinds of interesting things. And she was, you know, really, really distrusting ̶ 24:03 AD: But, you know, that is interesting. 24:04 JK: ̶ Of the staff. 24:05 AD: The fears ̶ 24:06 JK: Oh. 24:06 AD: ̶ She was still going through. 24:08 JK: Absolutely. And her memory was gone. She would not know who we were but the earliest. And I have read since that that is how it works. Early memories are the ones that last the longest. But yes, so she had those fears. No question but yeah so we were very close. She used to babysit me as a kid and she wanted to teach me Armenian, and I think again, I think I was just a punk kid and I was not interested and I could kick myself now. The opportunity just to be bilingual, even if in a relatively small way, when which would not have a ton of interaction but ̶ 24:40 AD: Were you close to her? 24:41 JK: Oh, yeah. She, she was the figure that, you know, she was the matriarch. There is no question and just, I do not know, I have always been very conscious that and I teach history. I talk to my kids about, you know, the past influences the present in that, you know, I, I exist because this horrible thing happened. You know it is ̶ 25:00 AD: That is right. 25:00 JK: There is an existential irony there that, you know, the murder of my family led to me. You know, my parents never would have met my grandparents would not have met ̶ My grandfather immigrated before the genocide. So yeah, we were close, no question. We would visit her at least once a week. And when she had her apartment, and then when she was in the nursing home, so it was frequent. But yeah, she wanted to teach me I did not want to learn and I do not know why my, my mother still chastises my father every now that you should have taught him. And I do not know, if it was laziness on his part. I do not think so ̶ That is maybe he did not think it was important. 25:35 AD: It is laziness. 25:36 JK: I think, well he is ̶ 25:38 AD: It is. I am certain it is laziness. 25:39 JK: No question about it. But whether it was conscious or not. But yeah, no ̶ I mean, I took a ̶ when I lived in my town. The local church had a, had a course and I signed up and took a semester and learned pretty quickly that ̶ I am a fairly bright individual that languages are not how my brain is wired. So much work. 26:01 AD: It is. 26:02 JK: And I know a few words. And unfortunately, most of them apparently are improper. 26:08 AD: Oh yeah. 26:09 JK: I asked it was a parish priest, unfortunately, who was teaching and I, and I said my father says this all the time wondering what this means and he turned bright red. I am like oh okay, I get the idea. [laughs] I do not think my father has a direct he probably does have a direct translation, but apparently it is fairly crude and ̶ 26:26 AD: And he also knows some Kurd-Turkish curse words because he said ̶ 26:32 JK: Well the rumor is, is that all the curse words are Turkish they are not Armenian, which I am sure is ridiculous, but, you know, somehow Armenians a pure language and we stole their curse words, because we are not going to have our own which seems silly, but that is the ̶ what gets [indistinct] around. 26:48 AD: You know it is like, I mean, they borrowed from each other obviously. 26:51 JK: Oh, sure. 26:53 AD: You know, not just curse words but everything ̶ I look at that ̶ food. It is all shared. 26:59 JK: Oh abso ̶ the whole area, yeah. 27:01 AD: Yeah but language ̶ My observation and you know, I also read other people's work not just particularly Armenian community but like a lot of immigrant communities. Language is the very first thing people lose, even though they do not lose the identity. 27:21 JK: That is interesting. 27:22 AD: But language is the very first thing. 27:25 JK: This that part of the assimilation? 27:27 AD: Yeah. 27:27 JK: Okay. 27:29 AD: Yes. And that is the very first thing it goes out. Even though, now you look at people I mean, I have like a conscious effort for my daughter and she is talented in languages and, and ̶ but at some point, growing up, she did not want to speak Turkish so at that time, her Turkish went down. And then my mother was extremely, like, strong-willed woman and then her criticism, and so she was like, okay, I guess you will never shut up. [laughs] So and then like her Turkish is like, constantly growing and like she can write, she can read, you know, it is like ̶ 28:28 JK: That is wonderful. 28:28 AD: It is going but it is still ̶ English is her first language naturally growing up here. But as I said, it has ̶ It happens like very first thing is the language. 28:40 JK: The language goes, interesting. 28:43 AD: And what stays is the food and the dance or you know this. 28:49 JK: Yeah. 28:50 AD: Family gatherings and stuff like that. So that is the kind of stuff people tend to keep but ̶ 28:58 JK: The cultural pieces. 28:59 AD: The cultural pieces stay but language so do not, do not be so hard on you because ̶ 29:07 JK: Oh no it is just more of a ̶ You know I wish. 29:10 AD: Yeah I know and everybody says that you know oh I wish if that was the case, and especially in this country right I mean this is ̶ Immigrants, all immigrants. 29:21 JK: Well we are supposed to be but what is going on these days, It is a little embarrassing. 29:25 AD: I know. 29:26 JK: But ̶ not a little em ̶ it is embarrassing. 29:29 AD: I know. 29:29 JK: It is frightening. 29:32 AD: I guess if you are not Russian you are not ̶ or Slovak. [laughs] Especially female, female Slavic race, is okay. 29:42 JK: It is awful, yeah. Other than that, forget it! You are no good. 29:47 AD: So. 29:49 JK: No it is ̶ I thought we ̶ it is interesting and the ̶ [indistinct] is I thought we had perhaps in my lifetime progressed, certainly there was all these racism and other isms. 29:59 AD: Oh yeah, yeah. 30:00 JK: But I kind of thought we have gotten to the point where we all acknowledged that alright you might feel that way. But it is embarrassing and it is bad and we are not going to let it out in the open. And, oh man, the last year is just ̶ 30:12 AD: I know. 30:13 JK: Remarkable because there is too many people who think it is okay to have it be out ̶ spewing their [indistinct] and their hate. 30:20 AD: It is unbelievable, it is unbelievable. It is like ̶ 30:23 JK: That is ̶ I know we are doing something else here but I am curious as someone who is a woman who is of a different culture speaks a different language. I mean, I would think you would be feeling that perhaps more than others. 30:36 AD: So you were telling me about your grandmother's faith? How was she? Was she religious ̶ 30:41 JK: She was and it is interesting ̶ She did not always go to church. She did not have a chance ̶ she never learned how to drive. That is interesting I never asked why. Because my aunt would come pick me up ̶ Why we did not go pick my grandmother up, but she often would not go to church but very, very strong faith. 31:00 AD: Oh she had a strong faith? 31:02 JK: Oh very much so very, very much so. And why ̶ she ̶ that is funny. I all these years you think I would have asked that question why she did not come to church more often as well. But there is no question her faith was, was a huge part of her I can remember. She had like a one room efficiency, but not long before she went into nursing home. And she had, had some kind of, I do not ̶ God it has been so long ̶ I do not know if she fell, or she had a tendinitis, but there was some issue with her arm and at one point, she really could not raise it. And I can remember her saying to me “Look Gerard ̶ “And, and you know, she could not raise her arm all the way up. And so she was concerned, it had just been prayer. You know that it made the difference somehow for her. 31:53 AD: No I mean ̶ 31:54 JK: And she, she would talk to me about it. When we would go visit ̶ There will be professional wrestling on TV she ̶ you could not tell it was not fake, or that it was fake. It was real. She loved the professional wrestling. I do not know why or where, but, you know. And she would, you know, she would talk to me about her faith in Jesus and these things. And from that, I know and from my father's stories that yeah no question she came through with a stronger, stronger faith, whether it had a connection to her experiences ̶ 32:25 AD: But also generation, I mean, my mom is like, into religion, you know, I mean, her mom was even more religious. 32:36 JK: Yeah, I think it seems Yeah. 32:39 AD: Generation also makes a difference. So it looks like in my family, her generation it ̶ 32:49 JK: Gets a little less and less. 32:50 AD: Faded away, yeah. But in some other ̶ 32:56 JK: That is interesting. 32:57 AD: ̶ Families 32:59 JK: Because I, I know some of my cousins again my generation they are my second cousins and full Armenian, ethnically genetically ̶ are still pretty involved in their churches where they are, now whether that is a cultural piece or faith based piece or it is, I do not know, I think there is some with the Armenians, it certainly can be so interwoven and it is hard to separate the two for some people I do not know. That is interesting. 33:28 AD: Do you know what I am thinking with your grandmother? Maybe she did not like going to church because not every person likes going to church and, and pray in public and how was how was her English was she comfortable communicating? 33:50 JK: That is a good que ̶ I mean she certainly ̶ that is interesting because again, my memory is that of a little boy. I mean, we certainly were able to communicate. You knew she was a ̶ sort of remember secondary English speaker. There is no question that ̶ and not even just an accent, but you know, so maybe she was not as comfortable and as fluent. 34:16 AD: Did, did ̶ So she read the bible was in English? I know I am asking ̶ 34:23 JK: I do not ̶ no that is a great question. I do not know. 34:27 AD: We need to ask your father. I am sure she had a bible, right? 34:31 JK: She ̶ yeah. And I bet you it was not a ̶ the only reason I think it may have been ̶ and I have no evidence really for this. But we have got a ̶ at one point she wrote out her story in-twelve, fifteen, twenty pages handwritten and it was in Armenian, so she could read and write Armenian and then we had some translate it, we all got like a, you know, typed up copy of it. But um, so I bet you her Bible would have been an Armenian. 34:59 AD: Yeah. 35:00 JK: So she could read, right ̶ I bet she was ̶ 35:02 AD: So I do not know if she ̶ I am just thinking. 35:05 JK: But that makes sense in a common sense. 35:07 AD: She could not follow the priest. 35:10 JK: Well and ̶ at least in our Armenian Church it was everything was in Armenian. The liturgy all in Arm ̶ oh ̶ 35:16 AD: Oh it was Armenian ̶ 35:17 JK: As a little kid I was like oh ̶ and ̶ 35:19 AD: Oh really? 35:20 JK: And they were not ̶ They were not these short Protestant services you know the kids would go and we would go to Sunday school and we would come back out and the whole thing was in Armenian and the music was I kind of liked the music The music was good and the incense was wonderful, but just you know in English I might have been bored you know, Armenian I did not understand it. 35:37 AD: How is it now? Is it still in Armenian or ̶ 35:41 JK: The last time I wa ̶ And it has been a number of years is probably ̶ Oh God, I bet you it was somebody's funeral several years ago. Last time I was in an Armenian Church for the service. It was both ̶ No, you know, it was just a few years ago, the parish priest we had here left-went to California. And then I am outside of Boston, north of Boston. And there is obviously a large number of Armenians in eastern Massachusetts. And in the neighboring town of Haverhill Father George came back to help them ̶ came back east. And his wife's from Haverhill originally, and I went to see him two, three years ago. He was there for like six months. And it was both it was Armenian and English, which would have been nice when I was a kid because I might have gotten more out of it but. [laughs] I do not ̶ you know, just ̶ 36:29 AD: Because then you do not understand what they are saying. 36:31 JK: Not a word ̶ nothing, nothing at all. You know it is ̶ Yeah and it is, it is not like it was like a ̶ I do not know like German where I might have-sister language where I might have picked up something ̶ nothing related ̶ 36:41 AD: But same thing with you know for non-Arabic speakers who follow Islam. 36:54 JK: At a mosque ̶ everything is in Arabic. 36:55 AD: Everything is in Arabic. 36:56 JK: So even if ̶ that right ̶ that is it alright. So I never felt like you were in Turkey, the Imam would be preaching in Turkish, no? He is in ̶ speaking in Arabic. 37:06 AD: Okay Imam preaches in Turkish I think, not that I ever went to ̶ Yeah, I went to a lot of mosques. But I am an architectural historian, it was all for [laughs] ̶ 37:17 JK: All about the building. Oh ̶ 37:18 AD: The building or like, oh what element is carrying this dome? Was it a good transition? I mean is like all technical. That is, that is what I ̶ 37:29 JK: Oh neat! 37:30 AD: I did. But as far as I know, you know, during this ser ̶ when he talks to the people it is in Turkish, but all ̶ these prayers, let us say somebody dies, okay. And then and there is this prayer. You know, when, when they buried the individual then there is the Hoca, you know, the religious entity comes home and then prays- 38:11 JK: And that is in Arabic. 38:12 AD: Yes. That is all in Arabic. You know? 38:15 JK: Interesting. 38:16 AD: And you have no idea what the script is about. 38:22 JK: That is fascinating. 38:22 AD: Nothing, nothing. So there are ̶ I think I, I think some people ̶ so what happened was in 1950s ̶ I am sorry, before 1950s, after the Turkish Republic was found ̶ Atatürk and his followers, it, it was during his follower's term. They said you know what ̶ you know, the call for prayer, Ezan, you know, five times a day, there is a call and originally it was like the Hoja goes to the minaret and then calls for the prayer. And that was all in Arabic. You know, the God is the greatest, you know, Allahu Akbar ̶ 39:15 JK: Sure. 39:15 AD: It starts like that. But then they changed that to Turkish I have never ever heard because I was not even alive then ̶ This happened like in 1930s. So the call was because they were like criticizing, you know, we do not ̶ It is Turkish and it needs to be in Turkish. And then we were in the 1950s when the Democrat Party ̶ It was like the transition to multi-party system. And, and his motto was like “Oh yeah, you know, olden days the great Ottoman the” ̶ So he brought back the religion aspect ̶ 39:58 JK: Interesting. 39:59 AD: To get votes because at the end of the day, the country you know, other than big cities, they were like extremely religious. 40:07 JK: Religious. Sure. 40:09 AD: So in order to get votes, so then they turned it back to Arabic so it is still Arabic, you know? 40:17 JK: That is fascinating. 40:19 AD: But even if it is like in Latin alphabet, let us say some, you know, you buy the Quran, but it is like ̶ It is that alphabet. You know, the letters are Latin, but the text is still Arabic. So you do not you still ̶ 40:40 JK: So that you can sound it out perhaps but you do not know what it is. 40:43 AD: I mean, the only difference is you just look at the ̶ let me see. This is from another Armenian lady I was just helping to ̶ So this is Ottoman actually this is not Arabic. But it is like ̶ 41:02 JK: Is not that beautiful? 41:02 AD: Think this ̶ I think this is, is Quran and it is all written with this letter. 41:07 JK: Right. 41:08 AD: Although when you put this in Latin, I can read it, it is ̶ This, this is it, you know, I, this is old Turkish, but I still can read it. 41:21 JK: And so there is another connection between a lot of Turkish and ̶ 41:24 AD: This is in Ottoman ̶ Like your grandmother or, you know, or family history if they had any documentation from that time period. 41:34 JK: It would have been like that. 41:36 AD: It is Ottoman, or old Turkish, written with Arabic script. And I know a little bit it is very hard. But I can still if when you put in Tur-in Latin letters, alphabet, it makes sense. But with Quran even if you look at the text written in Latin alphabet, it is still Arabic. And if you do not know Arabic, you have no idea. 42:09 JK: No idea what is going on. 42:09 AD: Same thing ̶ I think that was the case with Latin, you know ̶ 42:14 JK: The Catholic Church, yeah. 42:15 AD: The Catholic Church. 42:17 JK: The 1960s I think. 42:19 AD: If you do not know Latin ̶ 42:20 JK: Couple thousand years of Latin and- 42:22 AD: Then you do not know what is going on now you read it is like, oh it is like, the law is this that, you know it is like the Matthews, Corinthian, whatever, you know, it is like, you read, you know, you can follow what it says. 42:40 JK: Which is a little helpful. [laughs] 42:42 AD: Yeah, it is helpful, yeah. 42:43 JK: If you are interested. Yeah, for sure. 42:45 AD: Yeah. But that was the whole point, I think behind Islam to, to keep the unity. So that is why ̶ It is like ̶ it needed to be ̶ like in Arabic language. 42:57 JK: The same ̶ That is interesting. 42:59 AD: To, to keep that unity but Turkey ̶ pe-nobody understands unless you are Hoja or something you know ̶ 43:07 JK: Right unless you have got the education which has got to be fairly rare I would think. I mean especially Islam is worldwide like if you are in Indonesia, and it is an Arabic, I cannot imagine. 43:16 AD: They do not speak Arabic or look at Russia, you know, those Chechens or whatever ̶ They do not speak any Arabic or ̶ 43:27 JK: I would not think so. 43:27 AD: Or Bosnia or whatever. 43:29 JK: Right. 43:29 AD: They do not so yeah it is interesting. 43:33 JK: So it is interesting. Islam never had its Protestant Reformation. 43:36 AD: No never it was never reformed. 43:40 JK: Wow. 43:40 AD: Yeah, yeah. So, interesting, I never knew Armenian Church was in Armenian. 43:46 JK: It was here. And a couple other times I have been ̶ It has been in Arme-again, maybe father George is a traditionalist in some way in that, you know, he because my father is at eighty-going to be eighty-three. So Father George is in his seventies I would think so I mean, he is that generation. Maybe there is ̶ maybe there is a you know that traditional piece of holding on to the, the language and the culture maybe a younger priest would, would speak in English I do not I have ̶ It has been a long time since I have really spent any time in in an Armenian church at least on a regular basis. 44:27 AD: Yeah. Really interesting. 44:29 JK: Yeah. 44:30 AD: Yeah. So oh so little by little this Armenian-Armenian-ness [laughs] was like given to you ̶ not ̶ it, it was just natural, right? 44:47 JK: It was, yeah it was. 44:48 AD: It was natural it was not like oh well sit down you need to remember who you are. It was like that it was just always natural. 44:55 JK: It was always like I was surrounded by it, if you will. I mean my father is a ̶ is a history buff without question. So there is, I do not know half a dozen bookshelves filled with, with books and I do not ever recall a time being like sat down and told about the genocide or told about my grandmother's story. 45:14 AD: Yeah. 45:14 JK: But it was just kind of there. And, you know, as I was a teenager, in into my late teens, early twenties, you know, I would have a ̶ some people drink or buy drugs, I buy books, books are my drug, like my crutch or my, my vice. 45:33 AD: Yeah. 45:34 JK: And a used bookstore is, you know, like a treasure hunt. And there used to be a place here in Johnson City, one of the old factory buildings, where it was there tens of thousands of just in bins and use books, and so I do not know, I am thirteen, twelve and I am going through and I found a copy. My father has still got it, of the treaty between Turkey and Armenia in like 1919 or 1020. It was World War I ̶ was over and it was Armenia had a brief year and a half, two-year independence, kind of, and then there was there was so there was a treaty sent. It was and I found that so at that point and twelve, thirteen years old and I am aware enough, I know enough for the story to go ooh this is something I want to get I want to hold on and bring home. Yeah, it was just kind of it was part of the fabric of I do not know, it is almost like a foundational mythical- 46:27 AD: Yeah. 46:28 JK: Foundation story in the family that, you know, like, on my mother's side, you know, literally, we can go back to the Mayflower and see the family history took us back to the Domesday Book, and one, one branch of the family and what was that,1066? In England, so I have always felt like, you know, on one side of it stretches off but you know, the genocide is kind of a ̶ it is a beginning point, but it is also an ending point because the it is as far back as any of the history goes. And so whether it is a ̶ it is giving me my awareness of history and love of history, or vice versa, I do not know that is always been the seminal story. My grandmother was a seminal person and even in times when my ̶ I have a twenty-year-old daughter, and when she was a teenager, she was hell on wheels. Gave us a real run for our money. And you know, there is moments of parental anxiety when you are like, “Oh my god, what am I going to?” Like I my grandmother ̶ she ̶ I will never be as strong as durable or-well, I do not know, I suppose if you are put in that situation, you never know who you are going to be. But still, it she has always been a source of inspiration like alright if granny got through that I can get through this. This, this does not even compare. 47:43 AD: Exactly. 47:43 JK: You know what I mean, so it is, it is yeah, it was always there. And the so about the church aspect of it was kind of there I mean, it was a weekly thing, but it was, I do not know, I always felt a little bit in that sense, that that is maybe the only place where as a kid, where being half Armenian came up. And it had more to do with the fact that I was not for whatever reason they baptized me in the Roman Catholic Church. My mother was ̶ grew ̶ was raised a Roman Catholic. So even though the churches accept each other sacraments but I was not baptized in the Armenian Church so I could not take communion or something like that. I forget it has been long enough that it is fuzzy. 48:24 AD: I, you know what, I totally do not know these rules. 48:27 JK: Yeah I do not know that ̶ There is just so many. God I, you know, it is kind of crazy. 48:30 AD: Yeah. 48:30 JK: But, but if there was a place where I felt slightly like I was on the outside it was it was within the Armenian Church. 48:37 AD: Because to be all the, the church people there all hypocrites. I do not want to ̶ 48:43 JK: Yeah well, well no, no I, I am in a similar place at least intellectually I think a lot of just silliness. You know, it is like you know, oh yeah. Because in some of the churches they split over, like the tiniest from the outside looking in the tiniest pieces of theology. Like, that is what you are arguing about. Really? 49:03 AD: Yeah. 49:03 JK: Like come on. People die over there. It is ridiculous. 49:07 AD: And also like it is like ̶ is not it like church is supposed to be God's house right? Is not it like is not it all ̶ 49:16 JK: Supposed to bring people together. 49:17 AD: Right it, it is open to people, right? So like if I walk into Armenian Church will they take me open arm or without asking me who I am what I am what I do? 49:27 JK: It would depend on the person I would think. 49:29 AD: No that, that is not any church so it ̶ that is how it should be ̶ 49:34 JK: If you are lucky enough that the right person greets you at the door. 49:36 AD: Exactly. No I mean, to me, when I look at the, the meaning of it, it is like any, any, either Jewish, whatever they call it, kingdom ̶ What is it? I do not even know ̶ temple. Is it temple? 49:55 JK: Oh the synagogue. 49:56 AD: Synagogue. Either synagogue, church or mosque. I mean if I walk in if I want to be there and I want to be loved and whatever I do not think you should ask me what I am what I do, but it is not like that. Oh are you Jewish? Are you Christian? Are you this? Are you baptized? Who cares? I came here. I want protection. So help me. 50:24 JK: Yeah. 50:24 AD: I feel vulnerable. But it is not ̶ It never works like that. 50:30 JK: Rarely, rarely, rarely, every now and then you read about someone or you hear about somebody who had that has that attitude or had that attitude but ̶ 50:37 AD: Yeah. 50:38 JK: I think that is extremely rare. 50:39 AD: And then it goes down to something and it is like, are you ̶ I remember somebody told me like, especially the Catholic Church, like, you cannot even baptize your child unless you are ̶ that ̶ it ̶ registered at that church. I am like, what kind of stupid thing ̶ that is ̶ 50:59 JK: I think it is better than it used to be. Like my grandparents, because my grandmother was English. My grandfather was Irish, English, and Irish descent. They were not allowed to be married in the Catholic Church in front of the altar. They were married in the rectory next door. And so we went back, I do not know, eighty years or more at this point, when my parents got married in the Roman Catholic Church, because my father by some quirk of fate is a baptized Lutheran, because when he was a kid they did not have a parish. 51:29 AD: Your fa ̶ oh ̶ 51:30 JK: They did not have a parish priest. 51:31 AD: Oh yeah, yeah they did not. 51:31 JK: So somebody would come in on a monthly basis. 51:34 AD: Okay. 51:35 JK: And for whatever reason. I, I think he had a neighbor or something. He, he was probably ̶ because he is pre ̶ as you might have guessed, precocious and really outward going, and you know, would ask questions and, and some of them are like a friend, you know, the parents said oh well you come with us and so he got baptized in one of the Protestant churches. So they were, they, they did not have to be in the rectory, but my parents got married in the church, but not at the altar. They were like down and in front somewhere. I ̶ You know, so I mean there seems to be some progression towards a gradual acceptance of things. But it is just-it does seem like uphill battle. 52:13 AD: I do not know. It is like ̶ really interesting. So religion was ̶ so did you hate going to church when you were a child? 52:25 JK: When I was little? 52:26 AD: I mean was it boring for you? 52:28 JK: It was so ̶ as I got older was bor ̶ and again as I got into my teens and I was getting up at four in the morning to deliver a hundred and fifty papers I was like you know in conflict with you know I am tired I want to come home and go to bed. You know, I finished the program, you know that they, which was church history, Armenian history and theological stuff. But at first, when I was younger, I mean like the incense even, you know, smells like one of the things that really triggers memory. So I do not know what actual incense it is, but you know, that is powerful and smoking. That-at least there is something about I do not know if you have ever been in a Protestant church. It is very ̶ My father was a Baptist minister. Like there, there is no adornment there is no cross there is no just a little bit ̶ 53:14 AD: No in, in ̶ 53:14 JK: But like the Catholic and the Orthodox. 53:17 AD: In the United States whenever I walked in, in a church it does not give you any feeling but in Istanbul whenever I went to church because the incense whatever church you go does not matter Armenia, Greek ̶ 53:32 JK: Greek, any of the Orthodox. 53:33 AD: Italian, whatever it ̶ There is this ̶ you like ̶ it is very mystic. 53:40 JK: Yes. 53:41 AD: You know what I mean? 53:42 JK: That is a good word. Yes. 53:43 AD: It is like you feel different you know or whenever you go to mosque it is like because this like really architectural mar ̶ architecturally marvelous structure and it is like when you walk in you kind of feel this peace in your ̶ but it, it ̶ same thing with church or any church like when you walk in. It is like interesting. I did not get a chance to tell your father, but when I was doing my master's degree in Istanbul, a very, very close friend of mine, she is Armenian, and we were like working together, but it was her project. So she wanted to locate the Armenian churches along the Bosphorus, you know, straight in Istanbul. 54:36 JK: Yeah, absolutely. 54:37 AD: And so I was doing something else. So she came with me to do my part. And then so and I went along with her. So and I am so happy I did because it was so interesting. This, mini ̶ I mean, I do not know how many Armenian churches I went, and there were like a lot of them. And I would never guess I had no idea. We had that many Armenian churches in Istanbul. 55:09 JK: Still? 55:10 AD: Yes! 55:11 JK: Because my understanding is that a lot of them are ̶ 55:13 AD: Still. 55:13 JK: Well, my father and his ̶ My aunts went back about twenty-one years ago because I would have gone except my daughter was about to be born a couple months later. 55:21 AD: Yeah. 55:23 JK: And I have seen some of the pictures were like, you know, it has been converted to ̶ in a couple cases to a mosque in some cases, you know, just to ̶ 55:32 AD: No. 55:33 JK: A warehouse or just you know, another. 55:34 AD: Not just. 55:34 JK: And some of them had been torn down. 55:35 AD: Just like the Sofia you know Hagia Sophia which was like the ̶ 55:39 JK: Oh, that is, yeah. 55:40 AD: That is the, that is the ̶ It is a ̶ it is like a museum. I mean it is, it does not represent any faith whatsoever. It is just ̶ 55:50 JK: I always thought it was still a functional mosque. 55:52 AD: No. 55:53 JK: Oh. 55:54 AD: No, no, no, no, no. Long time ago. No, with the Republic, they kind of separated themselves from religion. 56:02 JK: Well that I knew. I knew the Turk tried to secularize and modernize or westernize maybe is a better word than modernize. 56:09 AD: Yeah. Yeah, no. They, they ̶ that is why they came up with this gray wolf and all that, you know, they wanted to go back to the Turkic roots and stuff so they separated themselves from religion. But ̶ 56:26 JK: So I am curious as an architectural historian, did you find that the base of architecture was kind of like there is a template, they just kept repeating it with the Armenian churches? 56:38 AD: Yeah, yeah. 56:38 JK: Okay. Because when we, when I was in high school, my aunts, and my father, we went to what was then Soviet Armenia, George and Azerbaijan. And I, you know, as a kid, you know, something old around here is maybe two hundred years old. All of a sudden, I am in these structures that are, you know, thousand, fifteen hundred years old. That was remarkably awe ̶ inspiring but after you have seen like one Armenian ̶ Ancient Armenian Church, like, they clearly had a template that they just ̶ there is no there was no variation that we saw. 57:11 AD: Oh yeah. 57:11 JK: There were several that we went to and they were wonderful but ̶ 57:15 AD: Absolutely. 57:16 JK: It was, you know, had its own look it was I thought relatively unique. It did not look like a, you know, a Roman or ancient Catholic Church or any of the Europe ̶ Other you know, more Western European churches. But they were very, very, very similar to one another with the exception of one that had been literally carved out of solid rock. 57:38 AD: Yeah. 57:38 JK: It was on the side of a mountainside and apparently they had it was all one piece of rock it was ̶ That was amazing. 57:45 AD: Well, this, this is the biggest one in Istanbul. Üç Horan [19th-century Armenian Catholic church located in Istanbul, Turkey] this one. 58:01 JK: And is Ermeni is that Armenian? 58:03 AD: Yeah, your father knows. He knows. Okay. Let us look at images. Ah ̶ 58:09 JK: Yeah he is ̶ 58:10 AD: So this is like the, the, the most famous one in Istanbul, the biggest one too, ah. So, so this is the inside ̶ like a lot of wedding ceremonies ̶ 58:29 JK: So that kind of architecture does inspire. 58:30 AD: Yeah. 58:31 JK: Because the Protestant churches are just so plain. 58:33 AD: Yeah, but I mean ̶ 58:34 JK: And simple. 58:35 AD: Being over there. It is just like, but the churches Megi and I went along the Bosphorus they were not like ̶ big like this. 58:49 JK: No that is like cathedral sized. 58:50 AD: Okay. This is like really large but it was like so amazing to me that I had no idea they were small churches, and they were majority of them were still functioning. 59:06 JK: Oh really? 59:07 AD: I mean I, I am talking about in 19 ̶ We did that project either in 1988 or in ̶ I think it was 1988. Yeah. Ah, so that was just amazing. I was so happy. I do not know if anybody because that was not my interest but I, I, I was so hap ̶ Let me see. Maybe, maybe somebody did some work on that. I do not think so. Okay, there is something all the Armenian ̶ or maybe I should say ̶ oh come on work with me. Okay, this is the whole list. It says. Oh, this is Greek. Okay. 1:00:27 JK: Anglican-protest oh so this is ̶ So there are a lot of Christian churches. That is interesting. 1:00:31 AD: This is just in Istanbul but this is not a good ̶ This is all what is it ̶ Catholic. This is not a good list, but this is Wikipedia, I mean what do you expect anyway. 1:00:49 JK: Well it gives you an idea though. 1:00:51 AD: Yeah, but I am sure. I am sure if I am in a catholic-so there is a lot of Armenian Catholic churches, too. So I mean, if I want to do research, I can find that. Look at all these. 1:01:12 JK: Wow. 1:01:14 AD: So maybe the Luther-Lutheran also works with Armenians. You know what I mean? 1:01:21 JK: Could be ̶ I never realize ̶ I was until I moved to Watertown that there were Armenian churches other than the Armenian, Episodic Orthodox because there was a, there was a Roman Catholic Armenian church in Watertown this is out of the seven or eight Armenian churches within a, you know, mile square mile. 1:01:41 AD: Yeah, I mean it ̶ ` to me, it makes sense that there are a lot of churches because I mean, there were a lot of Armenians that, that ̶ we still have a Armenian population but we do not have Greeks. I mean, they were just literally wiped out of Istanbul. Because of you know, end of World War One, Greece wanted to take piece of Turkey, you know they divided so that, the ̶ 1:02:11 JK: This is the early 1920s, right? 1:02:13 AD: The hatred toward Greeks in Turkey is still very alive. It is, I am not kidding you. But, vice versa, and I love Greeks, I love ̶ I mean, what is the difference? Seriously, what is the difference? And I know I have Greek ancestry ̶ my past. I mean, it is impossible not to have it ̶ 1:02:35 JK: Well it is my father's talked recently about doing one of those DNA swabs and you know, you get your genetic and I am sure that, you know ̶ 1:02:41 AD: No, I am ̶ 1:02:42 JK: People think they are this and you find out you got a smattering of a number of other things. 1:02:46 AD: I know. Yeah, no, I am looking at the geographic region where my ancestors came from that was like Greek Pontus Empire. And therefore [indistinct], how can you have that right? But uh, you know, politically people have that. But you know, there is still Armenian population in Istanbul. 1:03:10 JK: That is interesting, I knew there was some I guess, I, I would not have anticipated that large a population that would support that many churches. 1:03:17 AD: I think there are more Armenians than Jews I am thinking in Istan ̶ I think Armenian still has the highest number as far as like the non-Muslim ethnic groups go. So, so other than religion as so when you are like in high school college, were people asking about your because of your name? 1:03:51 JK: Because of the name, every now and then you would run into somebody who just kind of like, you know, where you from? You know that I do not know, my face would strike a chord. And it is interesting when we were in the Soviet Union. It is funny the things that stick in your mind, but there was, we were in Georgia, going through some-and it is an Armenian-American group. Everybody is a hundred percent Armenian. There is a couple spouses, who were not at all Armenian. And there is me who's half, and the tour guide, and I, I am a seventeen year old boy at this point and the tour guide was really pretty. So I am already kind of like paying attention to her anyway [laughs] and for whatever reason. 1:04:29 AD: Was a, a Russian ̶ 1:04:31 JK: Georgia was a Georgian and was just my recollection, my aunt talks about it every now and then was like, I had the quintessential Armenian face I looked-and she is probably spent two-three minutes just which of course I ate up at the time. There is this beautiful woman telling me I look great. Okay, I ̶ That is fine by me. But so and my aunt was like, wait a minute, he is half English and Irish. What about the rest of us. But you know people see what they want to see, I guess. So I ̶ Certainly, gosh, you know, once you would like, you know, left home, meeting new people. People would ask like, Yeah, what, what, what kind of name is that and so every now and then we will get it ̶ you know like somebody on the phone you telemarketer or are you calling credit card something or other and they are like, oh, what kind of name is that? And I am like oh its Armenian. And usually I get a where is Armenia ̶ Oh well the Black Sea, Caspian Sea, you know, eastern Turkey that part of the world. But it still happens once in a while, but certainly as a kid. 1:05:33 AD: So then you got married. And then you got your kids and stuff. So how do they, do they ̶ like your daughter ̶ twenty year old daughter ̶ does she identify herself with Armenian? 1:05:51 JK: She does. Despite the fact that, you know, she is a quarter Armenian ̶ Again she has the name, at least for the time being and, and she is kind of got the look. She is just sort of darkly complected I do not know if the features are particularly Middle Eastern Armenian but she identifies with it. I am trying to think what does she do ̶ There was something ̶ 1:06:18 AD: Her last name is Kalayjian, right? 1:06:19 JK: It is, yeah, absolutely. 1:06:20 AD: So the last name definitely ̶ 1:06:23 JK: Oh it certainly identifies her. And oh gosh, there is something right there. A thought that is almost wanting to be ̶ Jeez. 1:06:33 AD: Her complexion? 1:06:33 JK: Middle age is killing me. She told me a story like in the last year that she would run into ̶ oh I know what it was. She, she has been working ̶ had been working at a grocery store in the deli. And this is in Lewis Delaware, which apparently is a relatively touristy area. And in the summer, they get a lot of Russian Ukrainian kids from Eastern Europe who come on a student visa, they work they send the money home and then they go home. And it was she had a ̶ she ran into kids who knew who Armenians were for the first time. You know, Because she has never ran into somebody who knew what an Armenian was before and of course, the only people that know are from you know, that part of the world. And she was kind of tickled by that, that, you know, she finally ran into somebody who knew what an Armenian was. And you know, she did not have to explain where what or how or why all that was. So yes she seems to identify despite the fact that you know, in terms of the generic suit is a minority of who she is at this point, but she does. My son who is fifteen now is adopted, and he is Mayan, Mayan. You look him ̶ He looks right off like one of the temples he has got the classic Mayan face. So I do not ̶ 1:07:51 AD: With an Armenian last ̶ 1:07:53 JK: With an Armenian last name right being raised in a very generic, non, you know, classic non-cultural soup of things. And then it ̶ my, my little, my two year old he is a little young to figure it out. But people say he looks like me so I do not see it is funny. When my daughter when she was little, there was pictures of her four three and me at the same age it could be interchangeable. 1:08:21 AD: Really? 1:08:22 JK: Which I was worried for her at first because I am a reasonably attractive male but as a female I do not think I would do too well. [laughs] Luckily for her, it has worked out. But, yeah no I do not see it. I think he looks like my father and a little bit, but we will see what happens with him. You know how he ̶ And he is blond. He is darkening but he had blonde ̶ my brother in law; my wife has got brown hair and is fairer than I am in terms of her skin color, but apparently my brother light was blonde as a little boy too. 1:08:55 AD: Yeah interesting. 1:08:56 JK: Yeah because like where would this blonde kid come from? I do not know ̶ Some talk about a recessive gene from like your ancestors ̶ 1:09:01 AD: Yeah exactly. 1:09:02 JK: Come popping out from somewhere. My mother is obviously fair English and Irish. 1:09:05 AD: Who knows what happened between those ̶ 1:09:08 JK: No, you know, the caucuses you know they remind me of [indistinct] for a couple thousand years came through. So ̶ 1:09:14 AD: Absolutely. 1:09:15 JK: Well that is why I am looking forward to my father's genetic test to find out. 1:09:18 AD: Yeah exactly. 1:09:19 JK: You know a little Tatar, a little Mongol a little Greek a little ̶ 1:09:21 AD: Who knows, who knows. 1:09:23 JK: Absolutely. 1:09:24 AD: That part because Sivas especially is right beneath Black Sea region. It is right there so ̶ 1:09:34 JK: Right so everybody. 1:09:36 AD: Anything could happen. So that is ̶ So do you cook any Armenian food or anything? Did you learn anything? 1:09:45 JK: I have all the recipes. My ̶ One of my cousins talked to my aunt Manooshag and her mother, [indistinct]. And so there is a, there is a binder with all the family recipes in them. I make my own matzoon, yogurt. I do not ̶ What is the Turkish word for yogurt? 1:10:02 AD: Yoğurt. 1:10:03 JK: Oh so it really is the Turkish word. 1:10:05 AD: Actually. I think phonetically whatever or linguistically yoğurt is a word from Turkish language. Yeah, I think but ̶ 1:10:18 JK: Sounds good to me. 1:10:19 AD: I am not a linguist. Somebody told me but I never looked for it. It may be true, but the way we pronounce it as 'yoğurt'. 1:10:29 JK: So it is a really soft g. 1:10:31 AD: There is a soft g, yep. 1:10:33 JK: But I mean that I mean, I am not a cook, I, I love to eat, but I really like it when other people do the work. 1:10:41 AD: Me too, yeah. 1:10:41 JK: You know? And I, I wish I did ̶ Had more of a motivation because I do not know maybe it is being a guy maybe. I do not know. Maybe it is just innate laziness, but if it is, you know, a sandwich is easier than doing all the preparation. 1:10:54 AD: But everybody likes cooking. 1:10:57 JK: No, but I love eating. [laughs] 1:10:59 AD: Me too. 1:11:00 JK: It would be a nice combination. You know if I liked to cook but somehow I have the recipes. I am trying to think I have tried a couple things over the years, but the for the most part, no. I do not do any of the cooking so. 1:11:15 AD: Well I mean some people are into kitchen you know they like cooking and so it is ̶ 1:11:24 JK: No it is, I am re ̶ If it comes out of a box that is more my speed. 1:11:28 AD: Yeah? 1:11:28 JK: You know, unfortunately. 1:11:29 AD: Easy. 1:11:30 JK: Easy. Yeah. 1:11:32 AD: Yeah. So you went to Armenia but you have never been in Turkey? 1:11:40 JK: No, I would love to go back. And again, I would have gone with my father my aunts and would have been (19)96, 1996 they went because that was when my daughter was born. So she was born in August and they were ̶ 1:11:52 AD: [Indistinct] I do not know ̶ 1:11:54 JK: Yeah, they ̶ let us see how they ̶ 1:11:55 AD: Not Sivas. Sivas is- [indistinct] 1:11:57 JK: No but, they spent some time in eastern Anatolia. 1:12:02 AD: But every, not every area I would not go but ̶ 1:12:07 JK: Especially with an American passport these days I do not know, I would ̶ 1:12:11 AD: I travel with American passport, I have a dual citizenship but ̶ 1:12:15 JK: Oh nice. 1:12:17 AD: Because of my daughter, I said, “What am I going to do? We will go different lines,” you know. So I got ̶ That is my only reason. 1:12:28 JK: That is a good one. 1:12:29 AD: I mean I am glad I did who knows I would maybe never allowed back to this country. 1:12:35 JK: Well, yeah, right? But Turkey is not on that list so you would be okay. 1:12:38 AD: But you never know [indistinct] overnight [laughs]. So and I said, Well, let me just do that. And I did have my daughter was like almost two years old and then we went we had to go to the ceremony and then I have pictures that she got so bored. She was all over me. And so, but then I said, okay, well let me just go ahead and get her a Turkish ̶ uh, my mom was like, "Get her a Turkish citizenship too" you know, like I said, okay, whatever. So then I did that too because ̶ 1:13:22 JK: Gives her more options. 1:13:24 AD: You do not know, exactly. And she plays tennis. Hey, you know what if she wants to enter an international events? Yeah, it is easier to make it from there than here, you know? 1:13:37 JK: Sure. 1:13:38 AD: And then ̶ And maybe I can get them to pay for stuff, you know? 1:13:43 JK: Why not? Absolutely, yeah. 1:13:46 AD: My husband is like, Oh yeah, that is the mentality. That is part of the role I am like yeah that is a good thing. 1:13:51 JK: Oh yeah. One of my mother's friends who is-is waspy as my mother is. What did she say ̶ something about why do we ̶ and she made for generation ̶ something about you need wasps because somebody has to pay retail because you know, the Armenia is talented ̶ how about that what do mean ̶ got to figure it around why am I going to pay full price? Of course not. 1:14:14 AD: Of course not. 1:14:15 JK: Absolutely. Why would you? 1:14:17 AD: Never ̶ I never ̶ unless it is like something I need medically. 1:14:22 JK: Oh well that is different. 1:14:24 AD: You know what I mean? Or, or ̶ 1:14:24 JK: But in terms of ̶ 1:14:25 AD: Or it is something that she needs to a have it for school that I cannot wait for a sale. 1:14:32 JK: Yes, yes. 1:14:32 AD: I would normally wait. 1:14:33 JK: Yeah of course absolutely. 1:14:35 AD: [laughs] She has said that that is the only time. Never, ever ̶ It is like a sin for me. 1:14:44 JK: Absolutely, absolutely. 1:14:45 AD: Like buy something for her. [laughs] 1:14:47 JK: Got to haggle, got to wait, got to shop. 1:14:49 AD: That ̶ There you go. And then it is like what clothes so what is the big deal? I would never spend ̶ 1:14:58 JK: No. 1:14:58 AD: Full price. No, not at all. 1:15:02 JK: But yeah no, I would love to get there someday and it ̶ And because they were able to from stories my grandmother` had told them, they know the street that she lived. And so they were able to walk the street. She walked in and they apparently it is a bank building now. But they were somehow able to figure out where her church was. 1:15:22 AD: But I told your mom, your father if they know the name of the street, okay, I know it requires a little bit of research, but in Ottoman archives all the ̶ You know, the maps can be retrieved. 1:15:43 JK: Like the census? Really? 1:15:45 AD: Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I, you will not be able to find ownership records, because they would not want to ̶ then you can say, Hey, this is my father's, but you can at least see how the neighborhood look liked. 1:16:08 JK: Oh wow. That would be neat. 1:16:10 AD: Oh yeah. 1:16:11 JK: That would be really neat. 1:16:12 AD: And then ̶ See, to me, this is the sad part in your family history. Your great grandfather was a photographer. It is like, “Where are those photographs?” 1:16:27 JK: They have got ̶ My aunt has a couple with his stamp on the back home. The how those survived. 1:16:33 AD: Yeah but all these photographs he took so where are those? So I mean ̶ 1:16:39 JK: One would assume ̶ I mean, we have got a couple that one would assume they were mostly destroyed I would think, and most photographs do not last a hundred years. 1:16:49 AD: Well, they were put somewhere. Is there any like, I mean that requires research, archival research. 1:16:58 JK: Interesting so you thi ̶ there is a possibility you are saying that? 1:17:01 AD: There is a possibility. 1:17:02 JK: Really? 1:17:03 AD: Yeah, yeah, I mean, but someone who is speaking Turkish needs that kind of research, you know, probably go to Sivas and ask questions, you know, like there like is there any collection for the photographs related to you know, early twentieth century, you know, like, research can be done, but you will not be able to find the ownership record. No, you cannot. That I am sure that is not accessible. So, some information, not everything. I know, some information ̶ 1:17:52 JK: Well that is interesting I would not have thought there would have been anything available. 1:17:56 AD: Yeah. And the other thing is, is like, there are different records, you know, there are court records, birth records. I mean, maybe. 1:18:11 JK: Really? 1:18:11 AD: That ̶ Oh, yeah! 1:18:12 JK: Because I guess, and this is, I suppose this is really this is our arrogance a little bit ̶ 1:18:19 AD: It is all written like this so-the top one ̶ 1:18:22 JK: Sure but that ̶ we have always assumed, and again, this really is maybe American arrogance that, you know, it is kind of at that time, you know, in the backwards part of the world of the world, there would not have been as much record keeping. I do not think it was ever thought that birth records ̶ Because we never knew how old my grandmother or sister were they guessed my grandmother took her ̶ 1:18:44 AD: If they were registered of course, see that was the other thing were they registered. 1:18:50 JK: But that then it was even a possibility. That is fascinating. 1:18:54 AD: It is yeah ̶ It is like timeframe like late nineteenth early twentieth century like, oh, were the records like old records even before the Republic ̶ Sivas ̶ So the research can start ̶ Sivas ̶ probably from there it will either go to Ankara or Istanbul or both. Because where the records were kept, or are being kept by the Ottoman, because that court records a lot of people do research related to court records. 1:19:32 JK: Oh wow I had no idea. 1:19:33 AD: Oh yes, yes, yes there are ̶ It is like a ̶ but I do not know how much you can find. 1:19:41 JK: Oh no but that there is even a ̶ 1:19:43 AD: Yeah, I do not know how much you cannot find. 1:19:45 JK: ̶ Possibility. 1:19:45 AD: But yeah research can be done. I mean, I did not hear in your research in that regard, you know, the Armenians in Sivas region. But that again, that is not my interest. 1:20:02 JK: Sure. 1:20:03 AD: But I know you know, like, I know, some of my friends look at like, they deal with labor history. So they were looking at a lot of documentation and it was showing like how, like a lot of non-Muslims. Like for example, I remember one record, it was discussed. They were not happy the, the foreman was not treating them fairly. He was a Muslim Turk and like how they got together, signed the petition and went to court and the court found them, right, you know, like, interesting I mean normally you are like, really, that was like eighteenth century court. 1:20:49 JK: That would have been like a rare thing to hear, labor never wins. 1:20:54 AD: I know. I know. So they were like they were not happy with the foreman's treatment. So the workers ̶ They just complain and then I do not remember the complaint anyway, they were found ̶ 1:21:14 JK: That is fascinating. 1:21:14 AD: You know they ̶ The court favored them or it made a decision according to their ̶ 1:21:20 JK: Right, now that is interesting. 1:21:21 AD: Yeah. So I mean, there are things but I do not know. But property ownership ̶ 1:21:28 JK: Oh, yeah no. 1:21:29 AD: ̶ You will not find that. 1:21:30 JK: And you know it is and I do not know where my father has his perspective from but that, in a way, there is truth to it to evidence that, you know, yeah. Certainly, what happened to our family, you know, was propagated by the Turks and yet my grandmother's stories there were Turks who saved her. So it is and we have never felt like I do not know like Turks a group are like evil bad it was just individuals and you know ̶ 1:21:57 AD: Absolutely there are good ones, bad ones. 1:21:57 JK: Well in any group right? Absolutely. Which is what always appalled me about again hearing the some of the survivors in my parents’ generation in the church hall was a little kid some of the anti-Semitic stuff they would spew could you people you survived ̶ How are you saying this? You have lived the horror show? 1:22:20 AD: Yeah, well you find that everywhere right? 1:22:23 JK: Well you do, you do but I do not know. Maybe you hold your own group to higher standards than you do others. 1:22:29 AD: I know, I know. But how interesting your grandmother like when dementia like fully affected her. I mean that shows even though she lived she survived. 1:22:44 JK: Yeah. 1:22:44 AD: But like what a toll it was on her- 1:22:48 JK: Clearly had a ̶ Yeah. 1:22:50 AD: ̶ Mind so she is going back there. 1:22:53 JK: Yeah and was very par ̶ and part of the paranoia is the dimension but still that, that was ̶ she had a roommate at the nursing home, who was ̶ dementia was like this woman was everything was perfect, everything was happy. Nothing was wrong. And with, with my grandmother. The worse it got, the more afraid she got, the more paranoid she got. And we were often talked about like was that is that your brain chemistry is that their experiences as younger women as kids you know did that form somehow what you de ̶ evolved back into ̶ 1:23:30 AD: Oh yeah. 1:23:31 JK: I do not know it was because my grandmother was very angry very paranoid, very worried. And you know, it was they were it all Turks, all Turks, they were going to ̶ 1:23:39 AD: So how was she normally ̶ like before? 1:23:44 JK: Oh, the sweetest, warmest, lovingest little old lady. She, she had ̶ She went through more like so she, she survived the genocide. And I am sure my father told you some of this but was got married was brought over married. My two aunts were born and the lost husband to ̶ It was some eye problem he had an operation complication that he died, that she lost her hardware store to the depression. And my grandfather was not a good guy. Really. 1:24:20 AD: That was what I heard. 1:24:21 JK: Yeah. 1:24:21 AD: Did you meet him? 1:24:22 JK: I did ̶ He died when I was nine, I think. 1:24:26 AD: Okay. 1:24:27 JK: And so was, I think abusive to my grandmother, not to my father, or my aunts, but gambled. I do not think he was a drinker, but gambled a lot gambled away money. And I would think most of the old men from that generation would have been tough by our standards and then and then some of them just went beyond. And my father hated him by the time he was a teenager. So even those stories that my grandmother was always up on this pedestal as this object of adoration and worship almost. And I think he moved out when my father was sixteen. So you know, she has had a series of ̶ And the story I am told about why they even got married. So he was kind of courting her. And she was maybe sort of ̶ I mean, you know, she was looking for a husband, probably given the time and the place. But he appar ̶ She came home and apparently this is like, my dad was born in (19)34. So this is like circa 1932. She came home and like he was in her bed. Like he has broken in and then today in 2017 this would be an appalling thing to have happen. I cannot imagine what it would have been like, you know, eighty years ago. To some degree, apparently, like felt shamed into, like she almost had to, because otherwise her reputation was going to be compromised. 1:25:59 AD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:26:01 JK: Yeah, so not a ̶ not a good guy. And then, when I was born or my mother was pregnant with me because he had lost his grandparents, my father never had grandparents. But the stepmother grandmother in Troy, but you know, he was very conscious of the fact that I should have as many ̶ I should have all my grandparents, and so yeah, I do not even think he ̶ I am pretty sure he was not even invited to their wedding. But he said, “Okay,” look, you know ̶ The here are the parameters. This is what you can do this what you cannot do ̶ you talk about my mother in any way. You are done. You are out. You are gone. Any otherwise gone? You are done. But he ̶ For all intents and purposes, he was a good grandfather. 1:26:46 AD: Yeah? 1:26:46 JK: My recollection is really wet, sloppy kisses. Which seems to be a family trait. He, he never learned to drive he walked everywhere. And he always, always had candy. Had Whitman sampler bars of Hershey's chocolate. On his gravestone it says the Candy Man. 1:27:05 AD: Really? 1:27:06 JK: Yeah. He lives in a like a one-room apartment over by Recreation Park. And it was I think there was a shared bathroom so like each of the rooms has one common bathroom. I do not know what he would have done for meals because there was no kitchen. I was only there a couple times. I remember being there after he died when we were cleaning it out. And then he had a refrigerator that was not plugged in. But it was literally top to bottom filled with. It is just it was unbelievable. And I can remember being upset that my father was going to throw it all away, I am like what are you doing? It was like Halloween like three years of Halloween all thrown together it was amazing. I But I think ̶ It was a not a great place, I think there was some bugs and things caught up. But so yeah, as a grandfather, he was fine. But he was. He was born 1893. So he was like eighty-four. And I am like eight. So I was pretty young when he died. 1:28:04 AD: So ̶ Was he speaking in Armenian with you? 1:28:07 JK: No it would have been English, would have been English. So my grandmother went through a ton of stuff and still came out as this really warm, loving, trusting, and always preaching and pushing love and tolerance. One of my father's favorite stories about her is here on campus, there were protests against the Vietnam War. And she wanted to march and you know, said bad back legs, I do not know. She had those crutches where they ̶ The cups are on the wrist. And there was at least one where he did not let her go because he was worried it was going to get too violent but others where he' would bring her and she would march and she was like, “You know, those, those north Vietnamese boys have mothers too.” And so you know, she could have been a horribly bitter woman given all of her experiences and she somehow managed to have a positive outlook, despite it all. 1:28:59 AD: That is, that is the geographic region. It is all in ourselves. We like to protest and do things, seriously. 1:29:08 JK: Is it really? 1:29:09 AD: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yesterday, my daughter was doing homework. She needed to have a presentation for the ̶ Like how Harlem Renaissance impacted today's society. So and then so I ̶ we discuss and I ̶ and then ̶ she was like, well, how about, you know, like, the protests and stuff. So she found some images and the my husband goes yeah, that was ̶ That came from you. [Indistinct] [laughs] So same thing with your grandmother. 1:29:52 JK: That is funny. 1:29:52 AD: Good for her. 1:29:55 JK: And clearly had a social conscious. That is funny ̶ That I never, no one has ever made that connection for me that, that part of the word protest is we are going to tell you what we think ̶ well, to tell you what we think you maybe should have made the connection. [laughs] 1:30:10 AD: That is right. 1:30:11 JK: Because there is no question. It was an interesting dichotomy growing up with the two family cultures because my father's side of the family and everything is on the table. I love you. You are a horse's ass, I mean everything. It is just all out there, there is no, you knew where you stood at all times and places and I have never said, you know, there is no expression of anything whatsoever. It is, it is funny to remember sort of made the connection that yes [indistinct] the government is going to know where the people stand. 1:30:39 AD: So I heard your grandfather was a good musician. 1:30:44 JK: Yeah, he played the oud. My father still has it I believe. 1:30:47 AD: Yeah, yeah he said he had it so did you have any musical talent? Like an ̶ any instrument? 1:30:56 JK: I played the saxophone through grade school up through actually up through high school it was one of those things. I was always ̶ It was laziness again, you know intellectually in I feel like the guitar has always been an interest. And in the-and part of my thinking alright simply I might pick I could learn to play [indistinct] but yeah, never, it never went anywhere. It is twelve strings. It seems more complicated than six no I am sorry. It has got an odd number of strings, is it eleven? 1:31:29 AD: I have no idea, I have like ̶ 1:31:31 JK: I believe it is I think it is odd numbers. Yeah, I think that is what my father's I have not seen it. It is sitting in a cabinet if ̶ 1:31:41 AD: If I say ud ̶ 1:31:42 JK: O-U-D 1:31:45 AD: How do you ̶ 1:31:45 JK: O-O-U-D 1:31:47 AD: Okay see I wrote number ̶ 1:31:51 JK: Well I bet you ̶ I bet if you did O-U-D you would probably find it. I am sure there is multiple spellings. 1:31:59 AD: Usually its ten but eleven. You are right, I guess that is the most common kind. 1:32:06 JK: Interesting. 1:32:09 AD: Yeah. 1:32:09 JK: And I know I heard him play a few times as a kid. But my father has always said that he was really, he was really quite good. 1:32:16 AD: Yeah. That was what this ̶ What he told me too. 1:32:21 JK: He also said because he was not a drinker. But said it was re ̶ Like two or three times when like, he would get really sad. He was a real sweetheart. 1:32:31 AD: Yeah, that was what he said. 1:32:32 JK: He was a real good SOB the rest of the time but ̶ Which is interesting because I tend to think sometimes do different things yeah but alcohol tends to bring out the real you so it makes you wonder why this is the other way around, usually, like you put on a good show than a drink and, you know, the angry drunk comes through. 1:32:49 AD: So your grandfather did not go through the genocide your grandmother ̶ 1:32:54 JK: No lost all of his family but no he was here ̶ 1910. 1:32:57 AD: Yeah so he did not experience what your grandmother experienced. 1:33:01 JK: I do not believe so. 1:33:02 AD: But to me surely, she had a like hard life, you know. 1:33:07 JK: Yeah. 1:33:09 AD: She survived. 1:33:10 JK: No question. 1:33:11 AD: Then married and nice man, he dies and then marries this man. 1:33:19 JK: Who was not a great guy! 1:33:20 AD: Yeah. And so no longer and like when dementia hit she was having all these nightmares and you know ̶ 1:33:32 JK: It made sense to us. 1:33:32 AD: Because she had a hard life. 1:33:34 JK: Yeah, she really did. I-I was-I have always been impressed because I do not ̶ well, and again, you never know but I just do not think I would be so positive. You know, if I would had that many negative experiences, I think I would be much more jaded and ̶ 1:33:50 AD: Non-positive I do not even ̶ 1:33:51 JK: [laughs] Yeah no it is easy to be negative. Yeah. I do not think there is any question. 1:34:00 AD: I call myself realist though. [laughs] 1:34:04 JK: Yes now that you pretend that you are putting a positive spin on it when you say that. 1:34:08 AD: Yeah. 1:34:09 JK: I know exactly what you mean. 1:34:11 AD: But you are so negative like no I am realist like I do not like sit on this pink cloud and dream, you know it is what it is so ̶ Yeah, so it is it is a very sad life. 1:34:24 JK: Oh, yeah, no question, no question. Because she lost, you know, siblings, parents. 1:34:31 AD: Because your father also, you know, describe like, you know, they did not have very much money so she had to, you know, work. So, I mean, all through her life she struggled 1:34:45 JK: Yeah. I think ̶ 1:34:46 AD: One way or another so ̶ 1:34:47 JK: Yes, yeah. No question and it is funny he looks back and says he had a great childhood. And I suppose to a certain degree, some ways he did I mean, he is certainly [indistinct] his brother. But yeah, I think about my grandfather and I think about the relative poverty they grew up in. I do not know, maybe it is that positive coming through. 1:35:08 AD: So you know, family is like very important thing in that part of the world. 1:35:17 JK: No question. 1:35:18 AD: No matter what ethnic identity you have. 1:35:20 JK: Yes. 1:35:22 AD: And that definitely is true for Armenian culture. So, is that growing with you, too? I know, your father said, you know, that togetherness being a close-knit family. 1:35:40 JK: Oh, yeah. 1:35:41 AD: So is that continuing? Like, how good are you with your daughter, for example, like ̶ How is your relationship with her? 1:35:50 JK: Now, it is good. Like I said, the teen years she part of it was probably the div ̶ Well it was a phase that was the divorced with her mother and I and she probably threw her own spin on things. But no she is, no ̶ We are close. We talk, we text. No question. No family is very important. I mean, you know, not that friends are not important and you sometimes find friends who become family. You know, sort of surpass ̶ 1:36:18 AD: Absolutely. That is another part of that, you know, culture, you know, like, you, you get so close to your family that they become like your family. 1:36:30 JK: Absolutely. But yeah no, no question. Family's very important. You know go out of your way to maintain an, you know it is tough because if there is a [indistinct] and she was living in Maryland, which is you know, far enough away that you, you really have to plan and budget, you know, to go down there and to visit or have her come up. That is the thing that I always took for granted as a kid. My whole family was here. You know, I saw everybody all the time. And I missed that for my kids if there is something I missed about that family is that you know they see my parents, I do not know, half dozen eight times a year and it is just because we are six hours apart. Cannot imagine being half a world away. That is got to be so hard. 1:37:13 AD: I, but I believe or not, I am like, unbelievably so close to my family. 1:37:19 JK: Yeah. But that makes it a bit harder, does not it to be separated? 1:37:23 AD: Yeah. 1:37:23 JK: I mean I wish I was around the corner. 1:37:25 AD: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I go home every summer and ̶ 1:37:30 JK: That is nice. 1:37:30 AD: Yeah, my daughter, you know, she loves going there. So and because she likes the culture. Because she is a very people-oriented person. I am not. Believe it or not. I grew up over there. I am. I never was. It is a personality. 1:37:51 JK: Sure. 1:37:52 AD: But she loves going over there. All these people around her and all the time. You know, the doorbell always rings, the phone rings. I mean, I do not even have a land phone anymore, but when I did, like she knew when the phone rang, you do not answer. 1:38:13 JK: [laughs] 1:38:19 AD: So and I was like I am so happy I am taking her home so she knows when the phone rang you are supposed to answer. 1:38:27 JK: [laughs] That is wonderful. 1:38:34 AD: [laughs] So, I always remember this movie. God who was playing in it one of my favorite actor ̶ It is like accidental tourists, it is this odd family. So they are eating dinner and the phone rings and one of the siblings had trouble. And then and they do not show up for usual dinner time. And then one person at the table says, “Well, what if it is ̶ such as such ̶ If something is wrong with him? Maybe we should answer the phone just in case just once.” And then the other answers well he should know better. He would ask that, like, let us say police or hospital to call the neighbor. And like ̶ 1:39:21 JK: [laughs] Sounds familiar. Oh, gosh. That is funny. Yeah. 1:39:28 AD: [laughs] Yeah. 1:39:28 JK: Yeah so like ̶ Did you ever see My Big Fat Greek Wedding? 1:39:31 AD: Yes. 1:39:32 JK: Yeah, that was very reminiscent of, you know. 1:39:34 AD: Right? 1:39:35 JK: Oh, yeah it was like being home. 1:39:37 AD: Yeah exactly it is the same culture. 1:39:41 JK: Absolutely. 1:39:41 AD: That is why I was like ̶ I mean how can you ̶ yeah, that is so you, you know, the family. The ̶ You know, inter-dependency, you know. 1:39:55 JK: Absolutely. 1:39:55 AD: Be there, helping. So that is like, passed to you from your father ̶ 1:40:00 JK: No question. 1:40:00 AD: Your grandmother. 1:40:01 JK: My grandmother abs ̶ All the way through. And as an only child, I think I am also, you know, I might be forgetting the whole Armenian piece, but you are very conscious of my connections with my cousins. Just because, you know, at some point in the next, you know, my parents are getting up there that, you know, those are going to be my next connections, you know, without any siblings, but yeah no, family is ̶ 1:40:24 AD: So how is the ̶ 1:40:24 JK: Very important- 1:40:25 AD: ̶ Relationship with your cousins? 1:40:28 JK: Good, good. We ̶ I mean, these days, you know, everybody is what ̶ let us see Virginia, Florida, Colorado, California Chicago so I mean, everyone is pretty far from but with the modern technology, it is much easier to stay in touch Facebook, you know, things like that. 1:40:46 AD: Absolutely. 1:40:49 JK: So you know, you can keep track of kids and what is going on in people's lives and stay in touch. And what is I do not know ̶ We probably will not make my, my wife's pregnant with our ̶ with my fourth so we are not probably not ̶ 1:41:02 AD: Oh really? 1:41:02 JK: Yeah. 1:41:03 AD: Wow so now you have a two-year-old and another baby is ̶ 1:41:08 JK: Have another one coming out. 1:41:08 AD: ̶ When? 1:41:10 JK: About the time of the family reunion I mentioned so we probably are not going to ̶ We probably are not going to make it unfortunately. 1:41:15 AD: Oh wow. Little girl, boy? 1:41:17 JK: Little girl. Little girl, yeah. 1:41:19 AD: Aww. So no Armenian names? I for ̶ I was going to ask you that. Do you give any Armenian ̶ 1:41:24 JK: [Indistinct]. It is interesting. No, I ̶ you know we never ̶ I would ̶ the whole Jr. thing stopped me initially from like, I wanted, I wanted my children to have like their own name. I did not. I do not know because well about the time I was thirteen my voice dropped a little bit. You know, people call on the phone and you know is Jerry home, yeah I am Jerry. We would get ̶ my friend ̶ everything would get confused. And that sense of identity of separating yourself ̶ 1:41:49 AD: No, no, no I am not talking about junior, senior ̶ 1:41:51 JK: No, no I know but that sort of that ̶ That initially kind of pulled me away from doing that kind of a thing. And so no I have ever thought or considered it, I do not, I would be interest ̶ I have never really considered it. Because I do not know, some of the names are short, you know, like, [indistinct] you know, short and simple enough. And some of them like, like Berjouhi, or my father's Jirayr. You know, for the typical American mouth, just, yeah, it is a lot to put on a kid. And even my, my two aunts eighty years ago, because I do not think they spoke English very well or at all when they started kindergarten. And they had these monstrously long names, which is one reason why all of a sudden that is where Gerald and Jerry comes from, they were not going to let because my father is eleven and twelve years younger than the two of them when he started school, they were not going to let him have the same experience of having a non-Anglo that nobody could say because that is Gerald's. I do not think it is on his birth certificate. I do not think that is technically speaking that is not his name. If you were going to get-on his social security card or on his, his birth certificate. But no, I for whatever reason. 1:43:06 AD: Let me see how he signed the consent form. 1:43:09 JK: I am sure he signed it G.M. Kalayjian. 1:43:14 AD: Yeah. 1:43:16 JK: This, this was ̶ 1:43:16 AD: Uh, Gerald he signed it. 1:43:18 JK: No, that is me. 1:43:19 AD: That is you? 1:43:19 JK: That is my handwriting, yeah. Oh wait a minute ̶ 1:43:22 AD: No. 1:43:23 JK: No, oh God. 1:43:24 AD: It is February 11. 1:43:25 JK: No that is absolutely him. That is ̶ he usually ̶ that is interesting. He usually does not write in all capitals. That is what got me confused. 1:43:33 AD: Yeah. 1:43:35 JK: That is my mother's influence. Wow. [laughs] He used to ̶ that funny. 1:43:41 AD: So ̶ Were you also close to your mother's side of the family? 1:43:45 JK: Yeah, very much so. Yeah. I ̶ again ̶ my grandparents. So my grandmother, my dad's mom would babysit-my grandmother, my mom's mom would babysit. So you know, I spent a lot of time with them growing up and it is ̶ yeah, I really was quite lucky in that ̶ and my aunt Manooshag is enough older that it was kind of had three grandmothers kind of dotting and taking care of me and cooking for me. Feeding me well my immediate family would not have had junk food, we would have just been all kinds of food. But you know, my, my mother's mother, mother mother's cookie jar and candy jar so. We would know where to go. But yeah know, both sides were close and tight. You know, we get together you know, at least well we visited weekly, at the very least, visited weekly. So no I have always felt very ̶ The older I get the more lucky I feel that I you know, did not did not miss much of that. Anything in terms of family. Other than having siblings. 1:44:54 AD: Yeah, well. 1:44:55 JK: Is what it is, you know. 1:44:56 AD: Now you have four. 1:44:59 JK: Yeah. I have never met a child who has had an only child. We all seem to want to have multiples. I do not know. I am sure there is something rooted in our only childness there. 1:45:07 AD: We are too. I have an older sister. She has one son. I have one daughter. 1:45:15 JK: That would be interesting. If I had to ̶ If I, if I was a betting man, I would bet both of them will have at least two children. 1:45:22 AD: Yeah. 1:45:23 JK: Because growing up as a kid being an only child, this there is some advantages. I had friends who had siblings and they would fight like cats and dogs. It was horrible. And I used to think myself lucky but as I have gotten older, like looking ahead to taking care of my parents or looking ahead to being without my parent, you know, like siblings would be a nice thing to have and to lean on. But it is what it is. 1:45:47 AD: Yeah, exactly, exactly. 1:45:48 JK: I do not lose sleep over but you know, when it comes up ̶ 1:45:51 AD: Yeah and then I also see like, people with a horrible relationship, you know like their siblings ̶ 1:45:57 JK: I was wondered about that. I always wonder like ̶ 1:46:00 AD: ̶ They do not even talk ̶ 1:46:00 JK: I know. I know. 1:46:01 AD: ̶ To each other. And I do not know. 1:46:04 JK: Seems like such a shame. Because again, it is family if you do not have your family what ̶ what ̶ not that you cannot have a fulfilled life or close relationships with people that ̶ 1:46:14 AD: But people also do not talk like family members, you know, whether it is sibling you know, like they do not talk and um, you know, it is just depends on the person I guess. 1:46:27 JK: Yeah and how they were raised, I suppose. The family culture I bet. 1:46:32 AD: I see my daughter would have more than one child because she loves people and this ̶ She always had in this like tiny family. 1:46:44 JK: Yeah. 1:46:45 AD: You know what I mean like no aunts, or so many aunts. 1:46:50 JK: Well I mean as an only child I am always like, you know, both my parents have three and four siblings. But my first wife was one of three. But her ̶ Neither one of her parents had siblings. I mean, I have I have bumped up closely against families that are small and you know this. You know, people are type seems like you always wish there was, I do not know, maybe it is primal just the need for a large, protective, loving, caring group of people around you that we are all to some degree seeking. I do not know. 1:47:23 AD: Yeah, Interesting. So is there anything else you can think of ̶ Like growing up and, or, or when you became older? Anything like for your Armenian I mean anything comes to your head that I did not ̶ 1:47:46 JK: No. 1:47:47 AD: ̶ You know, ask ̶ 1:47:47 JK: No I do not think so. I am sure when I drive away, I will think of three things but ̶ 1:47:51 AD: That is okay. 1:47:52 JK: But no, no nothing else comes to mind. 1:47:56 AD: Well, I am going to end this ̶ 1:47:56 JK: Thank you. 1:47:57 AD: Thank you so much ̶ 1:47:59 JK: It was a pleasure. 1:47:58 AD: ̶ For the interview. This is like really great. Seriously, it is like getting different perspective. Like what we do so I am just going to end this. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Currently living in Massachusetts with his family, Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian, Jr. is originally from Binghamton, NY. He is a second generation Armenian-American on his father’s side and he has English and Irish ancestry on his mother's side. He has four children, two girls and two boys. Jerry is a teacher in Massachusetts. Keywords Armenians; Culture; Family; Friends; Genocide; Turkey; Music; Language; Food. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Jr. https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc6414cb847b92615528f12f157e893b.m4a 360ef79440082a875907dd9be6ef6bae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sarah Joy Hutcher and Erman Sahin Tatar Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geraldine Czebiniak Biographical Text Geraldine Czebiniak is a Ukrainian immigrant who left Ukraine at the age of seven during the Second World War. She went to Germany with her family and stayed in a camp for displaced people. She migrated to the United States when she was 13 years old. She is currently a member of Sacred Hearth Orthodox Church and resides in Binghamton with her family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 50:09 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-06 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Czebiniak, Geraldine. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; World War, 1939-1945—Prisoner-of-war camps; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=GeraldineCzebiniak.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Germany; Refugee camps; World War, 1939-1945; Immigrants; Ukrainian Catholic Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Geraldine Czebiniak Interviewed by: Sarah Joy Hutcher and Erman Sahin Tatar Transcriber: Sarah Joy Hutcher and Erman Sahin Tatar Date of interview: 6 April 2016 Interview Setting: Sacred Hearth Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Sarah Hutcher: Okay so, my name is Sarah Hutcher. Erman Tartar: And my name is Erman Tartar. SH: And we are here with-- Geraldine Czebiniak: Geraldine Czebiniak. SH: And we are here at Sacred Heart Catholic Church and we are interviewing Geri about Ukrainian life in Binghamton. ET: And first we want to start with how old were you and when did you immigrant to the United States? And how old were your parents and grandparents? GS: I was thirteen years old when I came to the United States I was seven years old when we left our Ukrainian village, our town that we lived in, my father was the principal of a boys school because they had a school where boys and girls were separated, he was the principal of a boys school and we had to immigrate because of the war, going back and forth, so we ended up in Germany when the war ended, World War II, than um so we were displaced persons as we were called then and we lived in a camp, they were schools made into a camp, we lived there for several years and the United States and other countries would take people into their countries to immigrate and that's why we immigrated to the United States after the war and there was a man here that my father's friend and he went to New York and saw this man at some kind of concert in New York and we had to have immigration, you had to have a job over here and a place to live and so this man signed papers saying he had a job for my father and a place to live. SH: Wow. That's crazy. GS: And that's how we came. ET: Yeah-- GS: Not like the way to do it now. SH: Right! GS: So, this friend of my father's found this friend from Binghamton actually. SH: Okay. GS: He was here and he said that he had a job and stuff so that's why we came. SH: What kind of job was it? GS: Actually my father was washing dishes at the old hospital, but it was okay because we were so happy to come here, we didn't care where he worked. SH: Yea, it was something. ET: Yeah, absolutely. GS: And then my mother got a job in the factory and it used to be a shoe factory, antigenic, but not anymore, it's not what it used to be and it was me and my two sisters that was my family, yeah. SH: That's sweet. And so, I know there were a lot of people working at the cigar, like the cigar factory, do you have any memory of that? GS: No, nobody that I know. SH: No? No one that you know? GS: No no one I know of-- ET: And you said you stayed at a camp after the war? GS: Yes, we-- ET: What was that like? GS: Well after the uh, actually, we stayed, at several camps, one camp was run by Germans and we were very worried that we were going to get killed cause that's when Germans were killing Jewish people and we thought that we were in the crowd that we were one of them so our lives were very always worried about living, that's all you worried about, living. Yeah, know? And um, so that camp was-- **Pause because the lights in the room when out.** ET: and your camp? GS: and the camp after the war, when the United States took over they organized all these people, and they had no place to live, they made the camps out of schools, building schools that was very nice because the United States treated us very well. There was no question about it, especially the children, we had extra, special care packages and things like that. SH: Yeah. GS: The children were um, SH: Treated well. GS: Treated very well. SH: And I mean, how old were you when? GS: When we lived there? ET: Seven years old right? GS: I was seven years old. SH: Okay seven. GS: We lived, when we left Ukraine, I was seven and when we left I was thirteen, August time was during the war and Germany and other countries right from Ukraine all the way to Germany. We moved from place to place to get away from the Russians. ET: Woah. GS: And so it was a rough, it was a very rough. ET: This is amazing, you're remembering, you were only seven years old, yeah. GS: I don't remember too many things about when I was little, you know, I don't remember, but the war and hiding, and running to the shelters all the time and I was little and I just, didn't want to leave sleep, I didn't want to go to the shelter but you know. SH: Even just going through that, even if you don’t remember it, still--. GS: Yes, yes, okay, any other questions? SH: Let's see what we got--um so when you got to Binghamton what was it like being Ukrainian here and um you know, did you notice a difference in your upbringing than like compared to like the kids that lived here? GS: I was, well, I didn't know English very well, I knew a couple of things yeah know in the camp you learn how to sing songs and stuff like that, I didn't understand the language, so um I was put in sixth great but I went to second grade to learn how to read and write and stuff, but it doesn't take long, when you're young you learn very fast. ET: Yeah, very fast. GS: A couple of months I was okay, you know? I was right where I belong, you know, and then I went to St. Patrick's and then I graduated from there. SH: Wow. GS: So I was okay, it was okay. SH: Wow. ET: I was just wondering when you came here did you, all family came here? GS: Yes, except my oldest sister, because she was older, she came like three months before we did. SH: Oh okay! GS: We were separated because she was of age. SH: Right. GS: I was the youngest of the three. ET: She have to wait here? GS: She had to, her visa came, her paper came three months before ours did, but it was okay because we knew she was coming here too, she was included in our family package, but she came three months before we did. SH: wow okay. So at least you got to be all together. GS: Yes, yes, we were very lucky because we used to ride together because there were many people, lost their parents or their children during the war, it was terrible. SH: Oh gosh. GS: So, SH: Thankfully you don't have too much memory of it. GS: I know, because it's amazing, my kids, I have four of them, SH: That was one of the questions. GS: Oh yeah? And they just are amazed we're as healthy as we are mentally, yea, but you live through that and your kind of forget, it's like a dream, a bad dream. SH: You got to keep moving forward. ET: Definitely. SH: I've met other survivors, and they have the same mentality. GS: That's right, you have to survive. SH: Just push forward. GS: That's right, no matter what country you are or nationality or the all lived through things, you survive it. SH: Yea, alright, so, where were your parents born? GS: My parents were born. Oh you mean city? SH: Yeah. GS: It's Ukraine, um, my parents, my father and my mother was from Stanislav, which is now called Ivano-Frankivsk, it was a city that they lived in, they were born there and then they, my father he went to school and he became a teacher and then a principal and then he moved to a smaller city and he became a principal of a smaller school it was a smaller city, it was not Stanislav. SH: And I mean there is a pretty decent sized Ukrainian population here in Binghamton, did they know anyone coming over here? GS: Well the person who signed that paper, he was Ukrainian, and he brought a lot of people over and then right away we joined the Church because we were Catholic and they communicant welcomed us so to speak. SH: That's great. GS: It was very nice. SH: Like a home away from home. GS: Yes yes, that's it. SH: It's easier to settle. GS: You have the church, you know. Right away and the church has the same language which was the same so that was very refreshing so to speak. ET: We are wondering; your friends are also Catholic? GS: Yes, that's right, they were, brought up from way back. SH: And so when you had kids was religion something. GS: Yes. SH: That was emphasized. GS: Yes, we were very active in our church and religion is very important to me, to us, and they all go to our church and I'm lucky because all four of them live locally. SH: Oh that's great. GS: So, we see each other at least once a week. SH: That's good. GS: They're all married. SH: Do they enforce it [religion] in their homes? GS: Yes they do. SH: Look at that. GS: So far so good. ET: Yes. GS: One of my daughters, the kids they used to go to the church and now they kind of broke away a little bit SH: They'll come back, they'll come back. GS: They'll come back, I hope so. SH: Maybe they just need a little time, they have to discover their own thing so-- SH: Yeah, very cool. ET: Did you have any household items or relics from the Ukraine in your home? GS: No. ET: Anything you remember from when you were a child? GS: Not anything, nothing because at one time or place where we lived it was bombed so all we were left were what we had on ourselves. ET: Yeah. SH: Wow. GS: We had nothing left so, nothing nothing that reminds me of home. SH: Wow. GS: Yeah so. SH: Have you ever visited Ukraine? GS: Pardon? SH: Have you ever visited Ukraine? GS: Oh no, but I've always wanted to, with four children and my husband, well he passed away, but I've been busy and never had the finances. I never had the money, when I had my husband we had to work because he says, you know, that's our family and we're to bring them up the way, you know, as you should be home which I did, I stayed home for eleven years and then worked, and then you know, we couldn't really afford to go back, I'd love to go but now now I'm too old and I can't walk too good, I have problems, too late too late. SH: You never know! Hopefully. ET: Your husband also Ukrainian? GS: Yes he was Ukrainian but he was born here, he was born here, we got married in our church because he was part of, he belonged to this church, and when I came you know. SH: How'd you guys meet? GS: Oh, in the choir. SH: Oh did you? That's sweet! GS: And I was quite a young bride but you know that was okay. SH: How old were you? GS: I was 19, 20 when I got married, I was young. SH: My cousin just got married at 18. GS: Oh yeah? SH: Which is very young. GS: Very young nowadays. SH: Nowadays, oh my gosh. GS: Because everyone gets married later. SH: My other cousin got married at like 37 so, it's different, definitely different. GS: To each his own. SH: Yes, but yea 19 is young. GS: Yup. ET: Do you think that there is a problem or an issue if they are not from the same culture? Like if not Ukrainian or Catholic Orthodox and want to marry at this time? GS: No I font think there would be any problems, no. SH: Do you think it would have upset you parents if you wanted to marry someone that wasn't Ukrainian. ET: For example, if you didn't want to marry-- GS: No not really. SH: Wow that's cool. GS: I don't think so. SH: I thought maybe they would. ET: Because sometimes a minority wants to protect their culture. GS: Right right, I never felt that, well you know I never felt that they would forbid it or anything like that they just, I got married to a Ukrainian and so did my sister and it just went on, my other sister also, it never appeared, it never became a problem so no. SH: Did you, you know, raising your four children, did you ever have special Ukrainian things in your household that you did, special holidays. GS: Yes we have lots of embroidered Ukrainian pillows, we did a lot of Ukrainian Easter eggs, I font know if you know of those. SH: We just saw them downstairs; they are so cool. GS: Yea they all know how to do those. They're very ornate. GS: they're very very, takes hours to do one, but they like to do this. SH: So your whole family does that? ET: Yeah, it's very cultural. GS: Yea, we love the American ways too but we have our own. SH: That was a question too! GS: As long as, I font have anything against living in the United States, they allow us to do this, to have your own culture, we you know so, we're very lucky, we love the United States, they gave us a life. SH: that's awesome, you keep answering our questions, you're doing awesome! ET: Very good. GS: Oh no! SH: No that's okay, that's a good thing. ET: How long did it take for you to feel at home and comfortable in Binghamton? GS: Um, I would say probably a couple of years. ET: A couple of years, I can understand that. GS: You know when we left there completely different kind of life. We had our own apartment, completely different kind of life, I would say a couple of years to feel at home. SH: Do you think it took your parents and your older siblings a little longer. GS: I think so cause younger people, they adapt. SH: Right. ET: A lot quicker. SH: They're flexible. GS: Yes, they are. SH: How long would you say, did they ever feel totally comfortable you think? GS: My mother, she didn't speak English very well, she went to the factory to work and she worked with people who spoke Ukrainian and Polish, so she didn't. SH: She didn't have to learn. GS: She didn't have to learn English. SH: Did she--. GS: My father did, he knew how to speak English. SH: In your household did you feel like you used Ukrainian more. GS: Yes, I font do that now. SH: I was going to say, are you still fluent? GS: Yes I am actually. SH: That's really cool. GS: My kids when they were little I used to speak to them in Ukrainian and once they went to school that changed a little and in the neighborhood they learned English, and they speak English at home now. ET: Right. SH: Do you think any of it stuck with them? GS: Oh yes. SH: Oh wow. GS: My grandchildren, Steven, has one of my grandsons he wants to learn Ukrainian, at school they're going to give classes so he wants to learn. SH: That's great. GS: It's great. SH: I was going to ask, and, I know I keep asking, did your husband speak? GS: Yes, he spoke it. SH: Oh wow so everyone. GS: We all spoke Ukrainian in the house and you know then they went to school and-- SH: It's hard to enforce it because everyone is speaking English. G: And the neighborhood, big influence. SH: Did you go to college? GS: No I didn't. SH: No? GS: I got married, I finished high school and I got married, I was almost 19 when I got out of high school because I was losing time during the war I didn't go to school, for almost four years I didn't go, it was like no life. SH: did you friends? Did any of your friends go to college or was it more common to just work? GS: Far more common to just work, you know. SH: And just settle down. GS: My children it's a different story, they all went to college, but that's different. ET: We were both wondering at this time did you feel any disconnection from social life when you came here. GS: not really I didn't not really, I never really felt that and maybe it was because we were amongst our own but then when you work, I worked in a hospital, I never felt discriminated against, I font know but I never felt that way. SH: That's good, probably ‘cause it seems more common, it such a large community up here. GS: Could be could be. SH: Now just out of curiosity, with the church population, is everyone Ukrainian? Is there a mix? ET: All different? GS: Oh no, some are married to English people or other nationalities, they come, they want to come they can, and some of them do come, some of them are married and are from different nationalities want to come and do come and they want to be a part of our church, and they're welcome to, and they feel comfortable, wife or husband they are connected in that way. ET: We want to ask, which culture do you feel has shaped you, Ukrainian or American, because you are so young when you come here, you are just seven years old. GS: Yeah, I would say American more. ET: What do you observe in yourself that is more American culture? GS: I don't know. ET: It's a hard question. GS: It's a hard one, American culture well maybe my other question, probably I should change it, because I'm more Ukrainian than American because we keep our own culture more or less so I, but American. SH: You could say both. GS: Yeah well both, that's the best way because a little bit of English and a little bit Ukrainian SH: Yea I mean one of my questions was um did you feel comfortable or I guess assimilated enough to celebrate, oh well I mean did your parents celebrate things like thanksgiving? GS: Oh yes. SH: All that stuff? Wow! You felt comfortable right away. GS: Absolutely yes, cookouts and Thanksgiving. SH: Your generation seems I think more grate than my generation to live where we live. ET: It's true, it's true. ET: Do you see the differences between your generation and the younger generation with faith maybe? GS: yea with the faith maybe a little different, the younger generation doesn't seem to be as connected as or as how you say it connected, definitely not as connected. They're more Americanized, which is okay you know there's nothing wrong with that but I feel like. ET: Are there any differences between the Ukrainian catholic culture and American catholic culture? Also catholic Ukraine orthodox? GS: No, the culture is different than the religion, the Ukrainian catholic orthodox is the same, we have the same services and everything it's just that the Catholic Church belongs to and is connected with the pope and that Vatican as the orthodox does not. That's the difference, but the services are not the same but similar, let's say it's similar. ET: What kind of things are similar. GS: The church service is what time talking about the service itself when the priest dresses the same as ours does even some of the prayers the same but they are font, the orthodox church does not recognize the pope as we do, that's the big difference like the catholic church. SH: and I'm not catholic, what does recognize the pope mean? Do they just not see him as being? GS: Head of the church. SH: Oh okay. GS: Because the Catholics are Latin right Catholics and recognize the pope as the head of the whole church, excuse me, the catholic church has a lot of right and we're byzantine rights and there are 22 right, 22 ways of serving God but they're still connected with Rome with the Vatican, so that's the differ and the orthodox font recognize him as the head of the church. SH: Okay and did you ever have a confirmation? GS: We are confirmed when we are baptized. SH: And what's when yours little? GS: Yes. SH: Oh I was going to say, did you have a confirmation in America? Ukraine? Germany? GS: No no. SH: So you don't remember? GS: That happened in Ukraine when I was little. SH: Little little, that's probably smart too. GS: Yeah. SH: Get that done early. ET: I was always wondering when I was a child I saw some Armenian Orthodox Church, Ukrainian orthodox church. What they are different? Why are they not the same Orthodox Church? GS: Why font they go to? Probably the language, I would imagine probably the language because I think if it was all in English it wouldn't all be different. ET: Yes yes. SH: anything you want to ask? You're like good, you're sticking to the script. GS: I'm glad you're asking questions cause to think about what to say. SH: It's probably so much. GS: I wouldn't know what to tell you. SH: I mean what has happened in your life in the first ten years is more than my 21. ET: I really wondered about this, did you remember the Soviet Union years. GS: Oh yes, I remember those few incidences when the soviets came to our town and our house , I remember we had holy picture on the wall and they threw them on the floor and that kind of stuck in my mind so much and I remember my mother had watches and jewelry and they took everything, and my parents we were just standing there and you couldn't do anything cause they would shoot you, if you say 'don't touch your something like they, when they came it was like ' just take whatever you want' and it was bad, it was bad, yes and then the Germans would move them back and the Germans would take over, and when the Germans would take over my father was arrested by the Germans. ET: Oh whoa! SH: For how long? GS: For a couple of months but the reason he was imprisoned because my uncle had a store and he was helping the Ukrainian underground army, fighting and trying to keep Ukraine independent and they were trying he was helping them and eventually and giving them food and the Germans wanted to know where the main office was and my was uncle arrested and my father, they had him in the next cell and they would beating my uncle to death because they wanted to know, they wanted my father to tell my uncle where is the main office? And where is the army the underground army and my father told them he couldn't tell him, my uncle what to do. So-- SH: Wow, so how old was your uncle, do you remember? GS: He was like in his early forties, like forty-two. SH: Oh my gosh! GS: And you know those boots the Germans had, I'm talking about Nazi's, I'm not talking about German people. SH: Yeah, no, oh definitely. ET: Definitely definitely. GS: Those boots, they kicked him so much he died. SH: Oh my gosh! GS: Yeah, it was terrible, so we have, and then the front would move back, we we under the Russians, we kept moving from one town to the next to keep away from, from being over our enemies. ET: Okay so. GS: That's why we ended up in Germany. SH: Yeah. GS: Because Ukrainian and Germany are quite a few countries, we were in Poland ya know we kept moving so that's what, that's how we ended up in Germany when the war finished and that's when the Americans took over and also when the we stayed in an underground shelter for two weeks. SH: Wow! GS: We couldn't get out because we were being bombed so much that, America bombed so much, it was the end of the war that we had to stay in the bunker for a solid two weeks, we didn't get to change our clothes, my toes were rotting in my shoes, so yea, you know it was a bad time but you know some how you survived, and when they stopped bombing we came out and we didn't know how the Americans were going to treat us. ET: Oh yea yeah yeah. GS: cause we didn't know but they treated us very well, ohhh they were so nice to us and they and like I said the organized the schools, like one room classroom there was like 35 people in one class room, different families and they would give us blankets and there was one family there was another family because they had to put us all together, and you know we had to live like that and little by little different countries would different people, I font know Belgium would take people Britain took people, displaced people and you know like now we have refugees and so that was yeah. SH: I'm like wow. ET: That was amazing, that was really amazing, yeah. SH: I font know, that really moved me. ET: How many friends your family have? GS: Friends? ET: Oh I'm sorry, sibling? GS: My father had my aunt, my uncle, three-- there was four of them, four total, he had a brother and two sisters. SH: Did any of them come over here? GS: Yeah, one of my aunts came. SH: Oh that's great. GS: Yes and she was here living with us but she passed away, once he found out that his siblings, because he didn't know where they were but somehow she got to the United States, and my father found out that she lived here he made sure she came here, you know bring the family together as much as you can. SH: Did you feel like your parent's kind of you know like? Did you feel like-- GS: Yeah, my uncle. SH: Did you feel like your parents sheltered you from that or did you find out later in life? GS: Yeah, they sheltered that. SH: They didn't want you to know that. GS: I know this is terrible but when the Germans came and were going after the Jewish they were throwing babies up against the wall to kill them, because they didn't want to use the ammunition to kill them this is terrible, I get goose pimples so my mother wouldn't let us go see anything that happened like that cause she protected us from seeing things that people and stuff like that, she protected us as much as she could. ET: Did you lose any of your friends? GS: No we didn't we were so lucky, so lucky, my mother had a blessed mother picture and God saved us, that's what she felt you know, that God saved us cause a lot of times. SH: You're so cool. ET: Yes! GS: Because a lot of times the way things looked my father worked even during the war he had to have a job so he worked the railroad station and when the bombs started alarm came, we ran to hide he would hide in one place and we would hide in another and you know chances are we might have gotten killed, but so far, I font know we always got together somehow. SH: That's amazing. GS: that's where we're, very religious because we feel that God saved. SH: He brought you through so much. ET: Yes, yes. SH: So much. GS: The whole family, there's five of us and we didn't lose any, I didn't lose any. SH: That's amazing. ET: Amazing. GS: A lot of people lost their parents during war, ya know bombs and stuff, we were very lucky, we were very fortunate. ET: I know this time was very hard, but did you miss anything about these times about Ukrainian life? GS: To be honest with you I font, I font remember too much to, yea, I was seven years old when we left so I just started school I didn't, you know I can't say that I missed too much for Ukraine. ET: Yeah, I understand, you had a friend before we came here. GS: Oh in Germany I did. ET: Do you remember? GS: I don't remember anyone in Ukraine but I remember people in the camp because we lived there for a few years, about four years. SH: Were there Jewish people? GS: No there were, they were all displaced people. SH: Oh yes you said that. ET: Yes, displaced. SH: It wasn't like. GS: No. SH: Okay. GS: Just a place to stay and from there we came to the United States, no no it wasn't a camp, like you talk about Jewish camps, it wasn't a concentration camp. SH: It wasn't like like that okay. GS: No it wasn't. SH: I think you would've mentioned that by now. ET: So, on one side you have Germany and the other you have Russia. GS: Yeah they kept going back and forth, Ukraine. ET: Oh my gosh! GS: They, the front, they would move back and forth so that happened a few times to us we kept moving back and that's how come we ended up in Germany. SH: Now here in Binghamton, do you feel, not to totally change the subject but do you feel like there are any other, cause I'm not sure, I know the Ukrainian population is pretty prominent do you know of any other populations here. GS: oh yes there is a Polish Community, there's a Slavic community, there's you know, other nationalities that kind of hung together. SH: Do you think they came here around a similar time. GS: Well you know it depends, some of them came after the war sometimes some of them were born here. ET: Yes, because Poland like Ukrainian, also with Germany and Russian. GS: Yes, because the fronts, the immigration more or less. SH: I was just curious, I wasn't sure. GS: Yeah yeah. ET: So, you are saying ethnicity and religion are not important, they tried to save all the displaced people, this is amazing. GS: That's right, that's right, it didn't matter. We were already in camp we had services, they had one room set aside like a chapel, orthodox had their service, catholic had their service other religions whatever had their services this was like in the camp so we got along with everybody, you have to, you have to help each other, that's what it is, when you're in trouble you help each other, it didn't matter who you were as long as you could help. You know, so-- ET: What about your mother's side, we know your father's side, but what about your mother? She's Catholic. GS: Yes yes. ET: She came here-- GS: Well my mother and father, no, none of them were here, my grandmother, she died before we came here so, and my mother had, the uncle who I said was killed by Germans, he was my mother's sisters’ husband so it was that kind of family, but none of my mother's family was here at all, my father's family was here but none of my mothers, they died before they got here. ET: All of them or? GS: Yeah, it was just the father died long ago when she was just a little girl and the mother was older and the sister, the sister was left behind but she died shortly after when we came here, my mother didn't have any family here at all. S: That's hard. GS: Yeah. SH: Do you feel like she had a preference? I know my mom's family came from Ireland and before they were able to get into the country they stayed in Canada for a little bit and she was always really mad they didn't stay in Canada. Do you feel like your mother had a preference? GS: Eh not really. SH: no she was just happy you guys were all safe, alive and well. GS: Yes that's it, right. SH: I'm sure you don't get too picky after what happened to you guys. GS: That's right, that's right after you lose your home and your place. ET: I was wondering after all these hard years, did your father try to go back or ever want to go back because it's hard to adopt here after. GS: No no, this is how, we said, no he never tried to go back. ET: I can understand. GS: No he was happy to be here because it was a free country and you had the freedom which we didn't have for years, no he never expressed that he would like to go back or anything like that. ET: Yes, yes, are you watching the television and news about Ukraine right now? GS: Sometimes. ET: Do you follow the Ukraine? GS: Yes, yeah I do, we do, we do; we keep up. We have a collection for the soldiers you know in our church we have a bake sale and we donate the money we've collected and send it to Europe because we have to help them. You know Russia is not very nice to us, you know Putin is not very nice taking, they're stronger than we are so they're going to take advantage of us but you know, Putin is something else, that's all I have to say. ET: Do you think Ukraine and Russia is close to each other, I'm just wondering. GS: Well I think maybe now because Ukraine was under Russia for what, seventy years, under Russian rule but I think, I'm talking about over there not here. ET: Okay. GS: I imagined inter marriages, maybe there is some mixed up, I really couldn't tell you for sure, because they were close, they lived together so to speak, but we still wanted our independence you know. ET: Absolutely. ET: Do you have any other hobbies here? GS: I love to cook and bake, you know so, I do that for sure, I worked for 38 years at Wilson hospital and not a nurse, I was a secretary. SH: My mom did that when I was younger! GS: Oh really? SH: Yeah, she was a secretary, she loved it, at a hospital; you see a lot. GS: Yeah, um I did, so I worked for 38 years, I retired when I was 69. SH: That's a long time, a long while, very cool. Just out of curiosity, where did you work in the hospital, like a certain? GS: Surgical floor mostly, orthopedic surgery. ET: Just another thing, did you feel assimilated enough to celebrate holidays like Independence Day and Thanksgiving? GS: Yes yes I do. SH: You seem pretty pro America. GS: Yes absolutely, absolutely I'm both. SH: A lot of people are pretty down on the United States right now. GS: No no not me. I mean there’s politics and stuff but I mean that will blow over. ET: Yes. SH: I think it will blow over, I think things are going to get better, it's been weird for a few years. GS: Ehhh it comes and goes, you know. SH: Yeah, it does it does so I think it will, we'll see, we'll give it a few years, oh that was my question. ET: Yeah. SH: Oh okay so I've been to Israel a few times and then I'll come back to America and try Israel food and I'm like ugh this is horrible, do you feel that way? Is there any Ukrainian food around here? Um or do you have to make it. GS: I have to make it! ET: I'm sure it's much more delicious. SH: Any restaurants for it? GS: I hear there's Ukrainian Restaurants around Binghamton, on Court Street or something, but I've never been there. SH: You've never tried it out. GS: No no never tried it out. SH: What is Ukrainian cuisine? Because I've never. GS: Well you know-- SH: Because you like to bake and cook? GS: Okay, one thing is tortes, we call them tortes, they're eight layers of pastry that you bake and you have to put filling between each layer, there's a walnut torte, you know, different kinds of tortes we make, and that's baking most of the time and food wise pierogi and all kinds of soups, you know nothing specific. SH: Yeah, I know Israeli food is very similar to the countries around it, you know like Lebanese food, do you think it's probably similar to that. GS: I think a lot of those countries are Slavic polish, the foods are more or less the same because they're all so close together, they kind of borrow from each other, you know. ET: You know I am coming from Turkey there is a lot of the same food. SH: You guys have a lot in common. ET: Yes Ukraine and Turkey are so close, and they support each other. GS: That's right that's right, yeah right on the border. SH: Are your languages similar? GS: No no. ET: Not much. SH: I was going to say you could like try and talk-- ET: The same basics are for the Russian and Ukraine? GS: What? ET: For the languages? GS: The alphabet is the same but the, you know I speak Ukrainian but I don't understand Russian, some words I might understand but hard Russian, no they are not similar. ET: Actually we really want to say thank you. GS: Oh is that all? Oh wonderful. ET: We appreciate it. SH: You answered all our questions really well. GS: I hope you get something out of it. SH: I feel like I learned a lot. ET: It really affected me. SH: I know I teared up. ET: I almost cry. SH: That was awesome, Thank you very much. ET: We want to say thank you very much. GS: Oh you're welcome, no problem, I hope you do well in school, I know you do. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Geraldine Czebiniak Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Czebiniak, Geraldine. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; World War, 1939-1945—Prisoner-of-war camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Czebiniak, Geraldine ; Hutcher, Sarah Joy ; Tatar, Erman Sahin Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Geraldine Czebiniak is a Ukrainian immigrant who left Ukraine at age seven during the Second World War. She went with her family to Germany to stay in a camp for displaced people. She migrated to the the United States when she was 13 years old. She is a member of Sacred Hearth Orthodox Church and resides in Binghamton with her family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Geraldine Czebiniak.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 50:09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/67ca71aa8b26b00f1ba56884bd6a019f.mp3 ad65ce184da3527f399520bbd2b14711 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56945">Interview with Gladys Gitchell</a> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 17:09 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp3 Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Interview Format Video or Audio Sound Subject LCSH Gitchell, Gladys -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); South Dakota; Department stores Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Gladys Gitchell Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of interview: 13 January 1978 Susan: Mrs. Gitchell, could you tell us something about your early beginnings—where you came from, what your parents did, and things like that? Gladys: Well, I was born in Alpoint, South Dakota. My father's name was James Campbell, my mother’s name was Villie. I, ah—he ran, my father ran a department store in a little village and, ah, his—my brothers and sisters and I helped in the store. It was just a country department store. One side was a dry goods store, one side was a bakery, and one side was a grocery store. From there we worked and went to school, which only took us through the seventh grade as we had to be sent to the city to go to high school. At that time I met my husband, Arthur Gitchell, and we were married when I was nineteen. We moved to a ranch outside of Reah Heights, which was a small town, and we raised cattle, horses, hogs and sheep and chickens. We separated the milk and sold the cream and fed the skimmed milk to the calves and pigs. He milked twenty-seven cows. When in 1921, we decided to come east to New York State to visit my husband’s people that lived on a farm in Apalachin. While we were there we visited his uncle in Binghamton, who was Hollis M. Gitchell, Water Superintendent. He talked my husband into taking a job with the city and staying in Binghamton as not only as having a better job, but also having better schooling for our children. So, we sent word back to South Dakota and had our properties disposed of and stayed on. At that time my husband worked in the Water Department and did an east side route for the city water by carrying sand and salt and a shovel and walking the route and digging out the fire hydrants and, whenever finding a frozen one, fill it with salt and making them safe for the fireman. At that time he was making $4.35 a day. Which—we lived on Washington Street at that time, we lived on Washington Street in City property between Hawley and Stuart, and I kept roomers, and in 1927 we decided to buy us a home, which we did, at 43 Andrews Ave. I became interested in the school—parent-teacher work, and did what I could with the other ladies to get new schools and improve our school system on the east side. In ‘21 when—was when the new East Jr. was built—no, that’s wrong, ’27, the new East Jr. was built, and in 1938 the new North High School was built. We called it the North High school because it was the north—the people on the northside wanted the school built in their district. So, we built it and called it North High, which starts the north side of E. Fredricks Street. It was a big piece of swampland and made a—by filling it all in, it made a—a nice football field and recreation field for both of the Central High School and the north side.  At that time I worked, clerked in the different stores in Binghamton. I started in at Fowler’s in the late forties. As the condition of the bus system changed, I found it more convenient to leave Fowler’s and come to the east side and work in a 10¢ store. It was on the corner of Robinson and Moeller Street, where I worked for thirteen years. I try now to keep very active in the senior citizen work, where I volunteer my time—the Greenman Center, where—which is located where the Pine Street school was torn down. Susan: Tell us how many children you had. Gladys: I had eight children—four boys and four girls. They all became active in some business. My daughter has worked—my oldest daughter has worked for the Universal Instrument, which has business in a great many different places—Chicago, Canada, and different—and she has worked for thirty-five years as a cost accountant. One boy works for the Board of Education, one boy works for TV, colored TV repair, and my son James, who lives in Maryland, works for the Metro—Metro 77, which he has worked for them for the past year. Susan: You want to bring out that it's a new concept in transportation. Gladys: —which is a new concept in transportation. It expands—the Metro system will carry millions of riders to offices, schools, stores and recreation centers on both sides of the Potomac River. The automatic fare collection begins with the open of—the Blue Line, with the Blue Line you won't have to carry any extra change. All you need to do—need to do is insert a coin in a fare box— Susan: —fare box— Gladys: —a vending machine in the station itself, and into—you insert it into the slot and it pops right back at you in a half a second, and on you walk onto the Metro train. Date of Interview 1978-01-13 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gitchell, Gladys Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Gladys Gitchell speaks of growing up in South Dakota before marrying her husband and moving, with him, to New York. She discusses her husband's job caring for the fire hydrants in the city of Binghamton and her work improving the schools on the east side of the city. She worked as a clerk at several stores in Binghamton and is now active in her senior citizen organization. She also discusses her children and their current occupations. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gladys Gitchell Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-13 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 75 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gitchell, Gladys ; Dobandi, Susan Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 17:09 minutes Subject The topic of the resource Gitchell, Gladys -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); South Dakota; Department stores https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3c1fc1bf95586c87eadc2f93260355b.jpeg 8355fbe7cdc29eedcd8adea8253e7db5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65cab0287f5c25e568fc59c394260bf6.mp3 761626db27c60c2f59834c60f5947ddb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 6/23/2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed GraceBaradet 1 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:00 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text After graduating from Lowell Business School, Grace became a secretary and went to work in Washington for the state department. Afterwards, she worked as the the Ministry of Aid. Grace was a daughter of Armenian immigrants who came to the United States from Greece and Turkey in the early 1910's. Grace has three sons. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Georgetown boys; Greece; Armenian Genocide; Beirut; Church; cultural identity; Sunday school"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Georgetown Boys Orphanage; Greece; Armenian Genocide; Beirut; Church; cultural identity; Sunday school Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Grace Baradet Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 15 April 2016 Interview Setting: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project with Binghamton University’s Special Collection’s Library. Would please state your name for the record? 0:09 GB: Grace Sarkisian Baradet. 0:11 GS: And where were you born? 0:13 GB: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 0:15 GS: What year? 0:16 GB: [laughs] 1928. 0:20 GS: Okay, um, let us start with your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about them? 0:22 GB: Yes. They were Garabed and Annagils Sarkisian, Annagil Konjoyan Sarkisian. My father a Garabed was born in Harput in a little village called Çarşamba. And he came to this country in 1912. He left behind his wife and his son that was one years old. And I presume he came here either to work and send for them or make money and go back. But then the genocide occurred. And he lost his son. He could not find him. And it took many many years and he finally through people that he knew discovered that his son was in a Greek orphanage on the Island of Corfu and ready to be sent to Canada. And I presume it was when the Georgetown Boys, have you heard of that project? 1:24 GS: Please. 1:25 GB: That was–they were sending boys there to work on farms. So, my brother, actually half-brother, was not happy about that. He wanted to go to Canada. So my father found him and arranged for him to come to this country. And I cannot remember what year it was. I can probably look it up. So they were living in Binghamton. And someone here Mrs. Bogdasarian, Alice Bogdasarian’s mother-in-law knew my mother from the orphanage and said I have a woman that I think would be appropriate for you. His wife, my father’s first wife died during the genocide. And so they wrote, sent pictures, decided it would work out and then my father arranged my mother to go, by that time she was in France, in Marcy, to go from Marcy to Cuba. And they got married in Cuba ̶ 2:31 GS: Wow. 2:32 GB: And came back to Binghamton. 2:33 GS: Okay, and what date did they get married in? 2:35 GB: They got married in 1927, May. 2:38 GS: Okay, and they settled down in Binghamton. 2:40 GB: Yes. 2:41 GS: Now I am assuming that both of your parents spoke Armenian? 2:44 GB: They did. 2:45 GS: Okay, so let us move on a little bit to your childhood. Did you have any brothers or sisters growing up? 2:49 GB: I had my older half-brother. He was like seventeen years older and a younger brother, he was five years younger. 2:58 GS: Okay, did you and your brothers grew up speaking Armenian in the household? 3:02 GB: Yes. 3:03 GS: Okay, was it because your parents taught it to you, like spoke to you in Armenian? 3:08 GB: Yes. They spoke to us in Armenian. Turkish, when they did not want us to know what they were talking about. [laughs] 3:36 GS: Did they speak in, how good were your parents at speaking English? 3:21 GB: I think they were fairly good. They read and spoke English and wrote. And when I was away, my mother would write to me in English, because I never learnt to read and write Armenian. 3:36 GS: Did they speak English to you when you were very little as well as Armenian or was it almost entirely Armenian? 3:41 GB: They, I think my half-brother spoke to me in English because when I started school I could speak both languages. 3:50 GS: Okay, so you had both in the household. 3:53 GB: Uh-huh. 3:53 GS: What would you say you and your brother conversed in primarily? 3:55 GB: English. 3:56 GS: English primarily? Would you switch to Armenian when you did not want other people know what you were talking about? 4:01 GB: Not necessarily. But when my parents would be talking to me in the Armenian I would reply back in Armenian. 4:07 GS: Okay, did you and your brothers attend church regularly? Did you attend an Armenian language school? Did you attend the Sunday school? 4:17 GB: We did not have a priest here. We would have visiting priest maybe few times a year. So we would go. And as far as Armenian school, we did not have Sunday school. An Armenian school, I think Mr. Bogdasarian started Armenian school. And I tried. My brothers, Oh, my older brother spoke Armenian and read and wrote in Armenian. So he knew that. My younger brother did not. He had a disability. 4:48 GS: Um, Okay, so the church only had official service a few times a year you said. Where there any other functions that would occur in the church more frequently? 5:01 GB: Well, they had dinners but mostly during the summer all the Armenian families would gather and go to a farm in Port Crane. 5:11 GS: Can you tell me a little about that? 5:12 GB: Oh, my goodness, every Sunday we would have to get up early to go there because there were not that many picnic tables available. My father always wanted a picnic table. So, it was very rustic, it was as the cows were walking around and it was just a farm. And I think we paid maybe fifty cents to go into the owners. And most of the Armenians went every Sunday and there were not that many cars in the thirties. So the few people that had cars would go ferry them back and forth in the morning and then ferry them back and forth at night. And Mr. Bagdasarian was one he had a truck. And he would put packing boxes in the back so can you imagine how unsafe it was. We would sit down on these packing boxes with the food in the middle and he would take everybody. And then come back take the rest. Then at the end of the day as I said we, he do the reverse until my brother, older brother got a car. A Model A and then he would do the same thing. Helping people, and they stop on the way to get ice from the ice company. 6:28 GS: So this would be like a frequent Sunday event over the summer. 6:32 GB: Yes. 6:33 GS: And how many families usually were participating? 6:35 GB: Oh, I would say at least ten, at least ten if not more. 6:42 GS: How large the portion of the community was that? 6:47 GB: I really do not know, maybe about half. There were a lot of kids. There were few families that they would camp there during the week. Put up a tent. 6:59 GS: What kind of food would you bring with you to the picnic? 7:02 GB: Oh, yes. Kebab, Pilaf, watermelon, desserts, vegetables whatever. 7:11 GS: When you said that there were sometimes dinners at the church. When would these be and for what purpose? 7:19 GB: Usually they would be after we would have church service, after Badarak and they would have a dinner. They would be just as a gathering for everyone. 7:31 GS: And who would usually prepare the meals? 7:34 GB: The women. Women’s Guild of the Church. The men would do the meat. 7:42 GS: Okay. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about your parents? What were there professions? What was the highest level of education they achieved in the US? 7:52 GB: Well, my father came from a rural community in Turkey. And he worked in a shoe factory when he came here. So his level of education I really do not know. My mother was born also in Harput. But she came from the city. And she did have some education and she was sort of a teacher in the orphanage. She was a young girl and her parents put her in the Danish Orphanage to protect her. Her sisters were married and she was the young girl so they thought they would do that. And I think she went home on weekends. But she was mostly in this Danish Orphanage. 8:41 GS: Did she ever talk to you about her experience there? 8:44 GB: She really loved it. And Mrs. Peterson was the head of the orphanage and she really liked Mrs. Peterson. And then she had something else that was very interesting that I do not know you may have heard you may have not heard before but her nephew was a little boy. And they wanted to keep him safe. So they brought him to this orphanage, his parents, and asked Mrs. Peterson if she would take him in. And she said no, it is a girl’s orphanage I cannot take a boy. And my mother pleaded she said please let me watch him I will make sure he does not bother anybody. So she relented and my mother had her nephew Harutun, I do not know for how long. [Phone ringing] excuse me. [Recording paused] 9:37 GS: Resuming Grace Baradet’s interview. 9:40 GB: All right, my mother, so she took her nephew, Harutun, who was a Konjoyan. And she took care of him and then the older sister who had been married and widowed, her sister Sara worked for the German Orphanage and she took him and kept him for a while. And then the oldest sister Yasah who had been married and widowed and took him. And somehow they all went to Beirut. And her older sister was able to sell her house for I do not know for eight gold coins. So they lived on some of that gold in Beirut until the sister, the oldest one found out about the Nansen passport. Have you heard of that one? No. 10:31 GS: Please! 10:32 GB: I have a copy of it. This Nansen passport was founded by Friedrich Nansen [Fridtjof Wedel-Jarlsberg Nansen] and he was Swedish, philanthropist [Norwegian explorer, scientist, diplomat, humanitarian and Nobel Peace Prize laureate] and I do not know it all, and he–this was for immigrants to go wherever they want. So she found out about this, her sister Yasah. And she took this nephew, her daughter and some older woman on this Nansen Passport to France. I have a gold coin that they lived on as a memento and I have a copy of the Nansen Passport. 11:14 GS: We would love to take a look at that. 11:16 GB: Yeah, it is interesting because I did not know about it until I went to France and met my cousin. 11:25 GS: We are looking at the Nansen passport right. Now Certificate– So, moving back to your childhood, would you say that you socialized with mainly Armenian children, non-Armenian children, some combination of both? 11:45 GB: Combination of both. 11:47 GS: Would you say that they were separate spheres like you and your Armenian friends and your non-Armenian friends? 11:52 GB: Yes. 11:53 GS: How did that come about? Who were your Armenian friends? 11:57 GB: Well, my Armenian friends were–we lived in neighborhoods and on the west side there was a whole group of Armenians. And we sort of associated with them and some were young people, my age. And then, my American friends of course were from school and neighborhood. 12:19 GS: Okay. Um, what was it like being an Armenian in school? Was it an identity that you bore proudly or was it something people aware about; was it more of an exotic identity that people did not understand? 12:34 GB: I do not recall all that they really question that. I think that I do not remember anybody questioning it or saying that, you know, what are you. I think we accepted that. 12:50 GS: When you were growing up in what ways did your parents try and maintain a sense of Armenian identity for you and your brothers? 12:58 GB: Well, we spoke Armenian in the house. And then of course when there was church we would go to church. Other than that, Oh, and the neighborhoods; you know the Armenian people in the neighborhood would visit back and forth. They were like family. So, other than that, there really was not another way. 13:17 AD: How about food? 13:18 GB: Pardon? 13:18 AD: Food? 13:19 GB: Food, Oh, definitely food. Yes. And of course my parents would get, for my father would get a newspaper printed in Armenian. And if there was any news–I was young, you know I really did not understand or did not really care and if there was some news he would get it that way. If it was interesting to me they would pass it on. 13:43 GS: So you said you only had church service a few time a year. If there was going to be a church service, how likely was it that you and your family would go? 13:53 GB: Very likely. We would go. 13:55 GS: What kinds of conditions would it take for you guys to have missed one of those church services? 14:01 GB: Probably illness. 14:03 GS: Illness, so when it happened it was important to go, was that the case for most of the community as well? 14:08 GB: I think so. It was also a chance to get together and socialize after church. 14:14 GS: So, the church was as much as a social space as it was a religious one for the community early on? 14:20 GB: Yes. 14:21 GS: Would you guys have any events at the church outside of the context of a priest coming to perform the Badarak? 14:28 GB: Oh, programs. Contest, I do not really do not know how to describe it. 14:34 GS: What kind of programs? 14:35 GB: Well I think the children were taught to get up and recite poems or stories. In, uh, Christmas time, there would be Santa would come and bring something for the children. 14:48 GS: And this would always happen in the church? 14:51 GB: Yes. 14:51 GS: And it was always for the Armenian community that these events where happening 14:55 GB: Right. 14:55 GS: Okay, moving on a little bit to your adult life, did you attend a university or–? 15:02 GB: I went to business school. 15:04 GS: Where at? 15:05 GB: In Binghamton, it is called the Lowell business school. 15:08 GS: Okay, and what has been your main profession on the course of your career? 15:12 GB: Well, I was a secretary. I went to work in Washington for the state department. And then when I left I was the Ministry of Aid. 15:22 GS: Where at? 15:25 GB: US State Department. 15:27 GS: Did you marry? 15:28 GB: Yes. 15:28 GS: Who is your husband? 15:30 GB: My husband was Richard Baradet. I met him in Washington. He was in the service. He was a marine. And we continued to live in Washington, or, actually in Tacoma Park, Maryland. He went back to college to the University of Maryland. 15:45 GS: Now, was your husband Armenian? 15:47 GB: No, he was French-Irish. 15:49 GS: French-Irish. Was it important to your parents that you marry someone Armenian? 15:55 GB: You know they never expressed that and they loved Richard. He had lost his father when he was three and his mother when he was seventeen. So, they became his parents and he really was wonderful to them. And they really loved him. 16:12 GS: Did– would you say that you, growing up, had a desire to marry someone Armenian? Was it something that was important to you? 16:20 GB: No. 16:21 GS: Do you know if that was a popular anxiety among people in the community? Were there other parents who pressured their children, were there children who said they only wanted to marry Armenian? 16:30 GB: Yes. I think most of the Armenian parents wanted their children to marry an Armenian. 16:36 GS: Why do you think that was? 16:38 GB: To carry on their identity, to carry on their heritage. 16:42 GS: And you think that for them was important? 16:44 GB: That was very important. 16:45 GS: Okay. Did you and your husband have children? 16:49 GB: We have three sons. 16:51 GS: Can you name them please? 16:52 GB: Yes, the oldest one is Kevin, and the next one is Timothy and then our youngest was Brian. 16:59 GS: And how old are they now? 17:01 GB: Oh my Gosh. Kevin is fifty. He will be fifty seven in this year. Timothy is fifty-five and Brian passed away when he was forty four. 17:16 GS: I am so sorry. Did you raise your children to speak Armenian? 17:25 GB: I did not but my mother lived with us and she talked to them in Armenian. Now they understood and they can say some words but they really did not speak. However, they were brought up Catholic but they went to Armenian Church as well. 17:42 GS: Okay, for starters where did you and your husband raise your children? 17:45 GB: We lived in Binghamton, New York. 17:47 GS: Okay, so what, why did you and your husband decided to raise your children Catholic as opposed to Armenian Orthodox? 17:56 GB: When we got married in 1954, I had to get married in the Catholic Church because that was a requirement. 17:05 GS: A requirement by whom? 17:07 GB: A requirement by the Catholic Church that we bring up our children catholic. 18:10 GS: Otherwise his priest would not have sanctified the marriage? 18:15 GB: Correct. 18:15 GS: How did that make you feel? 18:19 GB: I thought it was Okay. It did not bother me. 18:23 GS: It was not important to you that your children be raised Armenian Orthodox? 18:31 GB: No, I do not think I gave it a thought to be honest with you, because in the end, they went to both Churches. We only had church maybe once a month or not even that, and they would go to the Catholic Church in the morning and then go to the Armenian Church. They were part of Armenian Youth Group that Maryanne Rejebian and I started. 18:54 GS: Can you tell me about that? What was this youth group? 18:56 GB: We started this in the eighties and we thought the Armenian children of our children’s age should be together and experience that part of it. So we decided to start this youth group. We did not have a priest at the time. But we had the youth group and we had maybe about eighteen children. And we would get together and go on outings. We would have maybe play, go ice skating, and go to the Arena to watch hockey game or we would have bowling and just get together and I think once a year we would have a, I cannot even remember what we would call it–a sort of retreat. 19:54 GS: Okay. And where would the retreat go? 19:56 GB: Well, the one retreat we had was at a lake, Oh My Gosh I have forgotten now where. It was a lovely place and it was over the weekend. And by that time, we did have a priest. 20:11 GS: What was your primary motivation in starting this youth group? 20:16 GB: It was to keep the children together, to keep their Armenian identity and to get them to know each other better. And to have a childhood like we did raise together. 20:30 GS: Did you try and speak Armenian within this youth group trying to encourage the children to speak it or there was not enough of a consistency, fluency to allow that? 20:40 GB: There was not a fluency to allow that. 20:44 GS: So, it was in that way that you were able to maintain your childrens’ Armenian identity, even though they were raised in the Catholic Church? 20:51 GB: Yes. 20:54 GS: What other ways were you able to teach them about Armenian? 20:58 GB: Well, as I said my mother lived with us and she spoke to them in Armenian and she would cook Armenian food and she would make Corek, the Armenian bread and they would help her. In fact, the neighborhood children who were not Armenian would smell it and come and sit on the back porch, waiting for the bread to come out of the oven. 21:20 GS: Oh my God! 21:20 GB: Yeah. [laughs] It was really cute. 21:23 GS: Well, they know what is up, sure they get the best. So, did your sons marry? 21:33 GB: No. 2:34 GS: No, none of them married? 21:35 GB: No. 21:35 GS: Okay. When they were growing up, did you ever talk to them about, you know, if they were to marry about whether they should marry Armenians when they should raise their children in the Armenian Orthodox Church? 21:47 GB: No, I did not. 21:49 GS: How would you identify yourself? Would you say you are Armenian, Armenian-American, an American-Armenian, an American? 21:56 GB: American-Armenian. 21:57 GS: American-Armenian? Why would you choose that term? 22:01 GB: Well, I was born in this country. And I feel that it gave my parents a wonderful life, a safe life and so they were really grateful to be here. And so I feel that American-Armenian describes it the best. And I am proud of my Armenian heritage. 22:23 GS: How do you think your children would identify themselves? 22:26 GB: American. 22:27 GS: They would not use Armenian? 22:29 GB: I do not know. I really do not know. 22:32 GS: What are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora in general? Do you think that it was a survival mechanism after the genocide, do you think it is more part of a natural migratory pattern, do you think that is getting stronger, is it getting weaker, is it losing its identity, is it becoming more cohesive? 22:53 GB: I think that it was a way of survival that they had to leave, they had to go someplace. And most of my cousins ended up in France and they are still there, that is on my mother’s side. 23:06 GS: In Marseille? 23:07 GB: No, not in Marseille. Most of them are outside of Paris. And one was near Leon. And we went there and visited and got to know them, my husband and I. In fact, the two older boys when they were fourteen and sixteen, because the nephew that my mother and her sisters saved wanted them to come after my mother had died, he wrote and said that he wanted our two sons to come and visit. And they went for the whole summer and they loved it and they got along. They had a little bit of French in high school, junior high and a little smattering of Armenian, and they went and had a wonderful time. 23:54 GS: How do you see the Binghamton Armenian Community today? Do you think it is strong and getting stronger, do you think it is at risk at losing its identity? 24:04 GB: I would say, I thought it was at a risk of losing its identity because most of us were older and the younger people moved away after college to get their jobs they settled wherever their jobs were. However, it seems to be revitalizing. There are some young families that have come in. One is a professor at SUNY. I do not know if you have met him, Pegor, I cannot think of his last name, Aynajian ̶ 24:31 GS: I think I am about to be in contact with him soon possibly ̶ 24:34 GB: Okay, and his wife and they have three children now little ones, and there is another Armenian woman whose husband is not Armenian and he is a pharmacist and they have a little one, they have moved back or they have moved here. And there are several other young children, so these little ones. And it looks like it is kind of coming back, hopefully. 24:56 GS: Now, do you see, do you think that an important part of the Armenian community is the maintenance of Armenian language or do you think the community exists above the language? 25:09 GB: I think it exists above the language because I think the church is a nucleus that brings everyone together. 25:16 GS: But, as you talked about with your own family, you know, being Armenian Orthodox was not necessarily important having an Armenian identity, so do you think it is the Church as a physical space or the church is a religion institution that is important for the community? 25:32 GB: I think it is both. 25:34 GS: But you think it can survive with one being more important than the other as your community survived with you know only sporadic church services? 25:43 GB: Well the younger generation does not speak Armenian now. And I think it can survive that way. And most of the priests now speak English. So the Sermons are in English. 26:01 AD: I have a couple of questions. When you were growing up, do you remember in your house anything like your mother decorate the house pertaining to Armenian culture, you know like, maybe something she made with her hands like a little crochet–? 26:23 GB: Doilies, yes. 26:24 AD: Doilies, okay. 26:25 GB: Not crochet, needle work. You know they have this very fine needle work that they did, beautiful. 26:33 AD: Yeah, so did she teach you how to do that? 26:36 GB: She did not teach me how to do that but she did teach me how to knit and to sew and to embroider because she was a wonderful seamstress, taught me how to make things, clothes but as far as decorating the house outside of the needle work no. 26:57 AD: That was it? 26:58 GB: That was it. 26:59 AD: Was there any like any wall decoration that maybe pertaining to scenery of the homeland? 27:12 GB: No. When she came to Cuba, she probably just brought her clothes with her. She was not able to bring much more. 27:23 AD: Did they ever go back to visit the homeland? 27:27 GB: No. They never wanted to. And they really did not talk about their homeland that much either. 27:35 AD: Oh, they have not talked about? 27:37 GB: Not so much about what happened. They would talk about how wonderful it was and even though with the genocide, the Turkish neighbors were wonderful. And but because they lost their families, they were very sad about that. And it was hard for them to talk about that, their families and what happened to them. So, honestly I really do not know other than what happened to my father’s first wife and his son. I really do not know too much. 28:15 AD: They never referred to like nostalgic memories? 28:20 GB: Nostalgic yes. 28:22 AD: They did? 28:23 GB: The wonderful lives they had. And what they did growing up and my mother would talk about Christmas and the biggest thing to get was like a piece of–an orange was a gift. That was a big gift. 28:40 AD: How about Easter? 28:42 GB: Easter, they would go to church. In my mother’s family ̶ 28:45 AD: How about eggs? 28:47 GB: They did the eggs and I continue that tradition with the onion skins. Yes, I still do. 28:57 AD: Because that is not American, that is Armenian. 29:00 GB: But I continue that. 29:02 AD: No, you boil the egg. Can you tell us how you make it? 29:06 GB: Oh, you collect the onion skins from onions during the year until you have a lot and then at Easter time, what I do is I layer the onion skins in a pan and I gently put the eggs in on top of it and layer more onion skins on top, and then I put a little vinegar so that it holds the color and then you bring it to a boil and you turn it off and let it steep for 20 minutes so it is hardboiled. It gets a beautiful sort of a mahogany red color. 29:42 GS: So it is just a way to dye them? 29:44 GB: Yes, it is a way to dye them but also signifies the blood of Christ. 29:50 AD: Because I grew up in Istanbul and Easter in my mind represents red egg. 29:58 GB: Yes. 29:59 AD: Because always Armenian friends would give us those eggs ̶ 30:03 GB: Oh! 30:03 AD: So and I never seen that in anywhere else. 30:08 GB: I think the Greeks do that. 30:10 AD: Yes, the Greeks do that too because there is also some Greek population, so Easter represents red egg to me. So, yeah they did not talk about the past? 30:30 GB: They spoke lovingly about the past and the life they had but my father was young when he married and he came here I would say in my memory I think he said he was like nineteen or twenty. And so he married young and he had this one year old son that he left behind with his wife and they were caught up in the genocide. And she died and he ended up in an orphanage, a Greek orphanage. 31:00 AD: So, like for example painting those eggs is an Armenian tradition very much so. 31:04 GB: Yes. 31:05 AD: But like when you were growing up was there anything, for example when we entered the house, we took our shoes because this is not something we learn in this culture, it is like you know were taught is there any tradition that they say as Armenians we do that, like do you remember anything? 31:29 GB: We did not. I think my parents wanted to be Americanized because they were so happy to be in this country and be free and safe. So we never really went took off our shoes. We always went in the back door almost every friend; no one used the front door. I do not know whether that is a tradition or not but it just seemed to be that way. 31:56 AD: No, I mean not just taking off the shoes, something else, I do not know anything pertaining to Armenian culture, you know like this is how you treat your elder for example. 32:12 GB: Oh! Okay, you always, is when someone elderly they came you always serve them water with a plate under the glass. The glass on a plate, always. 32:24 AD: From what you said I gather that you took care of your mother when she got older so, is this a trend like in the community like when people get older? 32:43 GB: I do not think it is a trend. You know my father had died and my mother, we had Richard and I, my husband and had I moved back here from Washington. He got a job with IBM and so we bought a house and my father and mother lived with us. And my father died in 1960. And we had our first child in 1959 so he just knew him for a year. And he did not know our other two sons. And my mother was a widow. And she was a wonderful grandmother and they loved her and so we lived together. 33:27 AD: How about your other Armenian friends? Did you see that happening like they took care of their elderly? 33:37 GB: No. 33:38 AD: They did not. 33:38 GB: No, but I do not know, they did not have to or it was not necessary I do not know but no. I think, we were probably the only ones. 33:50 AD: So, there is like no much inter-dependency? 33:57 GB: I do not know how to answer that. They, I cannot think of any other a young couple that had their like mother-in-law, mother living with them. 34:13 AD: Okay, that is pretty much like westernized, like assimilated– 34:20 GB: Oh, and because it was necessary. I mean I did not want my mother to live alone. And I had a younger brother who had a disability and he lived with us a part of the time and then he was in Broome Developmental and we would bring him home on the weekends. 34:43 AD: But you said yours was unique case. 34:46 GB: I think so, I think so. 34:52 AD: Is there anything else you want to ask? 34:55 GS: That was it, thank you very much Grace. 34:57 GB: I want to show you the gold coin ̶ (End of Recording) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Grace Baradet https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/49f575bb176491709a6e8fd3f86d6773.jpg 80eca0362a808d3f67e922541edc76e0 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d1be25d4aeef2930d2b2feea5fbbb603.mp3 da4962a41031186ebfde001460566a58 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-10 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed H. Bruce (Howard Bruce) Franklin, 1934- Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bruce H. Franklin is an American cultural historian and scholar. He has received top awards in American Studies, science fiction, prison literature, and marine ecology. Franklin has written and edited nineteen books, three hundred professional articles, and has participated in several film productions. He was awarded the Pearson-Bode Prize for lifetime achievement in American Studies. Franklin currently is the Professor of English and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey. He received his Bachelor's degree from Amherst College and his Ph.D. from Stanford University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">H. Bruce Franklin is an American cultural historian and scholar. He has received top awards in American Studies, science fiction, prison literature, and marine ecology. Franklin has written and edited nineteen books, three hundred professional articles, and has participated in several film productions. He was awarded the Pearson-Bode Prize for lifetime achievement in American Studies. Franklin currently is the Professor of English and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey. He received his Bachelor's degree from Amherst College and his Ph.D. from Stanford University. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Propaganda; Anti-war movement; Baby boom generation; WW II; Vietnam War; Richard Nixon; Rock music; Drug culture; Liberation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Propaganda; Anti-war movement; Baby boom generation; WW II; Vietnam War; Richard Nixon; Rock music; Drug culture; Liberation. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:50 Subject LCSH Historians; Authors, American--20th century College teachers; Rutgers University; Franklin, H. Bruce (Howard Bruce), 1934--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Bruce Franklin Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 10 March 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: [inaudible] again, thanks a lot for agreeing to participate in my book project. The first question I want to ask you is I want to go into detail on what happened to you at Stanford. But what I do not know about you is your parents, your background. Who were your role models and inspirations before you went into the military? Because the material that I read is after that. So how did you become who you are? BF: Well, I grew up in Brooklyn. You know that much, right? SM: Yep. BF: And my father had six months of high school [inaudible]. And we lived in a working class neighborhood. Well, I was born, actually, in Bedford-Stuyvesant, and then my parents [inaudible]... We were also talking about Engels. And as far as the work that I do, I would say that Engels' writing is probably more influential, directly influential, on my thinking than Marx's writings, especially Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State, and Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. I think those are very powerful and important analyses today. Lenin, I think [inaudible] radical opus of communications. But I kind of see Lenin's writings as falling into two categories. One, his analysis of imperialism, which I think is still very, very helpful and insightful. And so, his [inaudible] Marx with 19th century capitalism, the key text was Lenin's Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, in which he describes the political economy which was dominant in the world during the first couple decades of the 20th century and on through the period of [inaudible] the mid-1970s. But in that period, colonialism as a system was destroyed. And this is what makes the Vietnam revolution so important in 20th and 21st century history, because it was cutting-edge. [inaudible] 1945 and 1949, a quarter of the world's population gained national independence from colonialism. In (19)49, in the Communist revolution, another quarter of the world's population was breaking away from [inaudible] decades of the 20th century. The world that we have (19)75 to 2010 is a different form of imperialism from what Lenin was writing about, although he saw finance capital becoming primary in the system. So that pretty far-sighted to think. The other part of Lenin's writings really revolve around the question of how to do it, or as he put it, what is to be done? And I think that the relevance of that writing in the post-Soviet period has got a whole string of question marks after it. It is not a simple question. I do not think these labels are very helpful anymore. I think that my books and articles speak for themselves. I have developed my own theoretical constructs, which are there in the book. My main work is as a cultural historian. So although if you look at ... If you look at Warstar's... Although I do feel [inaudible] with the relationship between what Marx called base and superstructure of [inaudible] the industry, what Eisenhower had called the- SM: [inaudible] BF: ...military-industrial complex [inaudible] a Marxist. To deal with that [inaudible] the main things I am focusing on really are consciousness issues [inaudible] cultural superstructure. And I do not think you will find much in Marx's or Engel's or Lenin's [inaudible] cultural superstructure. If anything, if there was one figure that was most influential on my approach to this, originally was Christopher Caudwell, C-A-U-D-W [inaudible], who himself was a Marxist and who died defending the Spanish popular government [inaudible]. I think Horowitz is such a fool. He and these other people who are whining about not [inaudible] themselves [inaudible] members of the faculty [inaudible]. The fact is that their work cannot withstand critical scrutiny. [inaudible] It is not well-researched. It is not [inaudible] by any standards. It is just foaming-at-the-mouth propaganda. SM: One of the first questions that I ask on the general area of questioning is the critics of the (19)60s generation blame a lot of the issues in the world today, the problems we have in this country, back to the boomers, the people that were either protesting the war, the 15 percent of the activists, who just could be about as many as 20, 25 million, and the breakdown of the family, the divorce rate, the drug culture, the sexual revolution, the beginning of the -isms, the pointing fingers toward other people for people's problems... And your thought on that kind of... And then secondly, because you have talked about the fact that small numbers of people can really make a difference in this world... And obviously, one of the critics of the (19)60s generation, or the boomers and the activists, is that only 15 percent were ever involved in any part of activism. So they use it as a negative as opposed to a positive, whereas 85 percent were just living their lives normally. I believe subconsciously everyone was affected. I do not care who you were. But how do you respond to people who generalize, again, that this period... And of course, this was when the Democratic Party was falling apart, too. And even Barney Frank wrote a book speaking frankly, where he states that the Democratic Party needs to separate itself from the war people, the anti-war, McGovern people, if it wants to survive as a party. So just your thoughts... And that was in (19)72 and- BF: The Democratic Party did separate itself from McGovern. That is what happened. SM: [inaudible]- BF: Because the people [inaudible] Democratic Party decided they would rather lose the election than lose their party. So they pulled the rug out from under him. The main thing is, who was right, who was wrong, the anti-war movement, or the people who got us into that war and kept us into that war and have kept us into war ever since? The people against the war were right. And in fact, it would be nice if the consciousness had not been largely erased, thus allowing this situation that we are presently in. Here is the way I look at it, putting my life in [inaudible] context. And it must have been [inaudible] 15 or 16 in 1945. I was riding around in Brooklyn. I was 11 years old, riding around in Brooklyn in the back of a pickup truck with a bunch of other kids. And we are all screaming, "Peace, peace. The war is over." The sidewalks are thronged with people, and everybody is yelling, "Peace, peace." And we really believed that we were going to spend the rest of our lives in a world without war, because the fascists and Nazis had been defeated, the militarists had been defeated. Democracies [inaudible]. And the fact of the matter is that I have spent almost the entire rest of my life in a nation that has been almost continually in a state of war. And in fact, while we were celebrating that, the Truman administration was making a deal with France to transport an invasion army to Vietnam, and arm that invasion army, an invasion army consisting of the largest [inaudible] Nazi soldiers. SM: Amazing. I read that. Yeah. BF: Not that we knew what was going on, which is why, I think, people are cynical, people believe you cannot trust the government. People believe the government lies to us and manipulates us, because the government's run in the interests of a few. It is pretty obvious. SM: Are you disappointed? You mentioned nine years old when you were at Stanford ... or I mean, excuse me, when you were in college. The boomers were a lot younger. But I know it is very difficult to generalize about 78 million people, but they have become the leaders. They have become the head of corporations. They run the world now, really, and all of the Generation X-ers who had followed them, their sons and daughters. How do you feel about this generally, this boomer generation? How do you feel about the 15 percent who were activists? And as they got older, did they remain activists? How many lived their ideals? BF: A lot did. There is a whole website [inaudible]. Stanford had [inaudible] the Stanford [inaudible]. And it had a website and archives [inaudible]. And I have [inaudible] because most of the people seemed to me to lead engaged lives, very active in their communities. So the idea that everybody who was active just gave up... corporations [inaudible]... I mean, I guess this is where my analysis and your analysis maybe part ways pretty dramatically, is I do not think of the generation as a very useful category- SM: I have heard that from other people. Yeah. BF: ...because [inaudible] a big chunk of time ... I have three kids who are boomers. And they were born in (19)56, (19)58 and (19)63. So I do not think of them ... My wife and I were talking about this relationship [inaudible]. We have never thought of our children as boomers. SM: Do they think of themselves as boomers? BF: I do not think so. No, I do not think so. It is true. My wife is the same age that I am. We were Depression babies [inaudible] babies [inaudible]. But I think social class, gender, ethnicity have a whole lot more to do with people's behavior. I suppose that as far as I know, the only thing you can really document about when you have a huge demographic bulge like that is that when that bulge reaches age 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, you are very likely to get an increased rate of crime. Historically [inaudible]- SM: Teenagers, yeah. BF: ...because most of what we define as crime, as opposed to corporate crime, most of what we define as crime is committed by people of that age. So when you have got more people of that age, you are probably going to have more crime. And obviously [inaudible], but- SM: Well- BF: ...[inaudible] and then there is all this medical research and everything that is come out, that people [inaudible] 16, 17, 18, 19, there is a core part of their brain that is not fully developed, which has something to do with their judgment. I mean, I look back at myself as a teenager, and what I know about other [inaudible] and I say, "How does anybody ever live through their teens?" They do not have a lot of sense. And a lot of people think they are immortal or bulletproof, or something. We knew some of the stuff that our kids were involved in. We have found out more [inaudible]. SM: Did you have a generation gap with your kids, when you were... because they always say that boomers, they really had a generation gap with their parents [inaudible]. BF: No. I mean, [inaudible] share our values. We are very close [inaudible]. SM: Right. In your view, when did the (19)60s begin, and when did it end? BF: I would say the (19)60s began in 1964 and ended around (19)74. SM: What was important in (19)64, Johnson winning, or... BF: Well, the way I see it, the I Have a Dream speech marked the end of it, the big March on Washington [inaudible], that, and the assassination of Kennedy. And then (19)64 was the first of the long, hot summers. It was the Mississippi Freedom Summer. It was the Gulf of Tonkin. It was the [inaudible] full-scale [inaudible]. And then, of course, [inaudible] was assassinated [inaudible]. I think if you looked at King's (19)63 speech and the April (19)67 speech and you put them together, you will see, how could so much change take place in such a short period of time? SM: You are talking about the Vietnam speech? BF: Yeah, yeah. And by (19)67, he is saying, "The greatest purveyor of violence in the world today is my own government. We are fighting on the wrong side of the war [inaudible]." This is the same guy that gave the I Have a Dream speech? He was part of the culture, and the changed situation and consciousness [inaudible]. So by (19)67, obviously, we were really into it. Early (19)65, the first anti-war demonstrations, the teach-ins of early (19)65. SM: And it ended in, you say, (19)74. Was that because the Vietnam War was over, or... BF: Well, (19)74, (19)75, someplace in there. The creation of the prison industrial complex. In some ways, you might be able to take... if you were going a couple years later. By (19)78, it was clear [inaudible]. I mean, [inaudible] emancipation radically changed between (19)77 and (19)78. (19)73, the United States surrenders in Vietnam. (19)75, the war is over. The change in dance styles began [inaudible]- SM: We had disco, yeah. Yeah. BF: It really takes over in the (19)80s. SM: You talked about ... because you are a cultural expert, and I had a chance to talk with Dr. Morris Dickstein, who talked about his book. And he wanted to talk more about culture. And what was it... the boomers often felt that they were the most unique generation in history. When they were young, they were going to change the world, create almost a utopia, end the war, bring peace, end racism, sexism, you name it. And then there was this feeling that they were unique, more unique than any other generally. Your thoughts on that kind of an attitude? Because many of them still feel that at 62 or 63, as they have gotten older. But what I am leaning into is, after you answer the question on uniqueness, what was it about the culture that stood out so different ... I know the music was unbelievable, the art was unbelievable, the theatrical performances. I am fascinated by guerrilla theater, that I do not think ever existed before. All these things that were a very important part of the period, and the movies, and the TV shows and documentaries, and the personalities on TV, there is a lot here. First, the question on uniqueness. BF: Every generation is unique, because every generation... See, I do not even know how... I have to confess something. The way my mind works, categories in general tend to break down. Whenever I started looking at categories, the boundaries of the categories start to come through. So I have a problem even with the concept of a generation. SM: That is okay. So did Todd Gitlin. BF: Yeah. [inaudible] So I can understand gender. That category I [inaudible]. And I can conceptualize class. But when there is a generation, it really seems to be very... the boundaries are so fluid. Okay, after World War II is [inaudible]. But what difference does that make? There were all kinds of other things happening in the world that were affecting people of different generations. And when I think of the anti-war movement, concrete... a lot of the people who were most active were people in the (19)60s, (19)67, (19)68, (19)69, who were in their 50s, 60s, 70s and older. And I do not know by percentage. Now, if you look at colleges, it is true that there were spectacular events at colleges, because it is easier for college students to engage in spectacular activities than it is for people who are working in the factory. SM: You are saying we tend to dwell too much on the college-educated as opposed to those that did not go to college. BF: [inaudible] Well, people, maybe they went to college, but I am saying different ages, different classes. This is not to belittle the college movement. It is wonderful, and I will be honest, [inaudible]. But I think the images that we have are quite inaccurate. When I think of the particular participants who were there year in and year out, a lot of them were older people in the community. But that is not the image. SM: How important were the... I am going to get to the culture question. How important were the college students and college student protests in ending the war? BF: Well, if you listen to the Vietnamese, they were very important. SM: Right. David Horowitz. BF: (19)64 to (19)68 was a period of [inaudible], which probably had a more direct role. But these things are not unrelated to each other, because the people who were rebelling in the cities, a lot of them were people who were going into the military [inaudible] because [inaudible] I think that in the final analysis, it was people in the military whose anti-war activities had great effect in ending the war; other than the Vietnamese, of course [inaudible]- SM: And you are talking- BF: The Vietnamese were going to win. They were going to win, no matter what. SM: Can you talk about that? And I know it is a very sensitive issue. I have brought it up with Vietnam vets who went there, and they may not want to talk about this part of the... I remember Country Joe was on our campus many years back, with Jan Scruggs. And we were eating dinner. And Country Joe is a little older than Jan Scruggs. And then out of nowhere, during the middle of the dinner, he says, "Have you ever wondered why there were no POWs for the North Vietnamese? Because they were all killed," he said. [inaudible] they were all killed. And Jan C., he did not want to talk about it. That is an image that happens a lot, that they just handed them over to the South Vietnamese, and they did whatever they wanted to do with them. And there was truth there, but- BF: Yeah [inaudible] MIA [inaudible] I debated on [inaudible] of the POW/MIA [inaudible] Vietnamese [inaudible]. If you had a choice between being captured by their side and captured by our side, which would you pick? And he was honest enough to move away from this whole area of discussion. SM: Oh, wow. He just very... Spitting Image is a book that comes out. And I have read it [inaudible] read it. Your thoughts on ... you mentioned just some commentary here, it is in the book. But why were the Vietnam veterans or people who fought in Vietnam the reason why the war ended? What did they do besides... I know they ended up writing and the other... BF: Yeah. I mean, it is there. It is documented in Vietnam [inaudible]- SM: Yeah, and we got the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, when they came back. BF: Well, Robert Heinl, writing in Armed Forces Journal, has quite a formative essay called The Collapse of the Armed Forces. And that is pretty accurate, because they were collapsing. And this is why Nixon ultimately had to withdraw the ground troops. The only units that were really capable of coherent playing at the level were [inaudible]. The conscript [inaudible] worse than useless, from a military point of view. They did not want to be there. They were largely [inaudible]. They wanted to come home alive. And you could write off, if you wanted to, the motivation of a lot of the people in the army in Vietnam who were actively against the war [inaudible] confusing [inaudible]. However, after [inaudible] and Nixon decided to switch the strategy to depend upon naval air power, we then had a revolutionary newspaper being published on every aircraft carrier [inaudible]. I cite in the book 1,500 members of the U.S.S. Constellation signed a petition to have Jane Fonda's FTA show brought onboard the carrier. Insurrections on ships, sabotage on ships, to the point that by October 1972, five aircraft carriers and their attending fleets had to be brought back to San Diego because they were unfit for combat, because of the anti-war activity in the fleet. And you cannot write off those guys as just trying to save their skins, because they were not in any danger. So why would they physically have taken action against the war? During the Christmas bombing, there were B-52 crews who refused to fly. Intelligence officials who were doing things like leaking the Pentagon Papers. So the students who were protesting on campus had limited means to really apply leverage. [inaudible] but the anti-war people in the Army, Navy and Air Force had a lot of leverage. SM: Is not it true that what was happening in Vietnam was happening in America, and that is the division between Black and white... there were those who said when they got into battle, that may have been a different story. They would fight to the end. But times when they were not in battle, the tensions of racism were still there, the drug culture. Everything that was happening in America was happening in the service, and that was part of the reason why it was going downhill. BF: But on the other hand, a lot of what was perceived was just the fact [inaudible] was not. A striking example was when a major ship... It was an aircraft carrier [inaudible] San Francisco. And a large number of crewmen refused to go aboard ship to go back to Vietnam. And there is a picture [inaudible]. They had their fists raised, like this. And the captain said, "[inaudible] crew members raised their fist in the Black Power symbol." But then you look at the picture, and a lot of the guys were white. So it was not a Black Power symbol. It was something else. SM: We got just a couple more minutes here. One of the basic questions I have tried to ask everyone... Well, there is two questions here. One is, and you may not want to answer this, because you do not believe in the generation concept, but if you were to define the generation, would you call them the Vietnam generation, the (19)60s generation, the Woodstock generation, the protest generation? [inaudible]- BF: It does not compute in my brain. SM: You said this era was so important culturally, and different than any other. In just a few words, how would you define the uniqueness of the culture during the era of the Vietnam War and the civil rights movements and the evolution of all these movements in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? BF: Well, if you wanted to think of it in one particular word that pulls a lot of things together, I think it is the word liberation. And it is a word that was widely used then: women's liberation movement, Black liberation movement, People's Liberation Army. So going in many different areas, there was a sense of liberation from something. Obviously, you can see it in the music. Rock was perceived as liberating, whatever. I think a lot of people thought that some drugs were liberating. But then you have to be careful when you are talking about this, because even then, and certainly today, what is America's number one drug problem? It is not marijuana and it is not heroin and it is not cocaine. It was the same number one drug problem that led to... the 18th Amendment? [inaudible] prohibition. SM: [inaudible]- BF: So alcohol. If we want to talk about the destruction of families, domestic violence, violence on the highways, shattered lives, lost careers... But a certain amount of people have looked at marijuana at some point. Other people looking at LSD. I do not think they were looking at meth as [inaudible]. Anyway, so- SM: Were the movies and the TV shows liberating, or how about the media culture, all those? BF: Well, yeah, I mean, whether they were or were not, there is the perception, I think, of that. [inaudible] in a lot of different ways. It was not just people who were involved in the anti-war movement [inaudible] that time, people were being liberated from something about the conformist and oppressive culture that dominated in the (19)50s. SM: Of course, TV was another part of this generation. They saw everything, and they saw the war on TV. One of the questions that our students came up with when we went down to Washington... I think it was like the year before you came to our campus. Senator Muskie was still alive. [inaudible]... This is what they asked him. I have got this right here, or is it here? They wrote it here. We usually have a hard time finding this. Oh, okay. The students wrote this: "Do you feel boomers are still having problems with healing, due to the extreme divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, the divisions between Black and white, gay and straight, male and female, division between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, divisions between those who supported the troops and those who did not? What role did the Vietnam War play in healing the divisions, or was this primarily a healing for veterans? Do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? And are we wrong in thinking this way, or has 35, 40 years made the following statement true: time heals all wounds?" Your thoughts on whether we are a nation that cannot heal from all those divisions from that time, that maybe what we see today in our society is a lack of tolerance [inaudible] for other points of view, people do not want to work together. Do you see anything there? And a lot of these boomers are now going into senior citizen status. And I know we may not like to call them a generation, but the Civil War generation, a lot of them... because I have studied Gettysburg, and many of them never healed from that battle. BF: Well, again, I do not see this as being confined to a generation, because I think the chasms did open up in American society during this period in 1968 [inaudible] exposed [inaudible] most divisive events [inaudible]. I do not know if we can put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Certainly, today when we talk about red states and blue states, I mean, this is a pretty new concept, except that if you look at the red states, to a large extent, you are looking at lines that pretty much parallel the Civil War. SM: In fact, Muskie's response was, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And he would not even talk about anything else. BF: Yeah, but we have had a lot of elections since then which were landslides for one party or another party [inaudible] sections of the country voted the same way. You do not see that happening right now, although I think in 2008, it looked like maybe we were going to get out of this mess. Virginia, North Carolina voted for Obama. But since the Republican Party, I think accurately, decided that they had to destroy Obama in order to survive and flourish as a party, and then they kept developing a strategy based on that assumption, that those chasms have become much greater. I do not know if you have gone to any of the town hall meetings? SM: Yeah, with Senator Specter. BF: I do not know [inaudible]. SM: It was not fun. It was like they talked down to him, just like he was nobody. BF: [inaudible]- SM: Whether you like him or not, you do not treat a politician... Boy, it was unbelievable. BF: Yeah. Well, my wife went to one in Montclair, which is a very liberal town. And she said it was really scary, really scary. SM: So as Senator Gaylord Nelson said, people do not walk around with lack of healing on their sleeve, but he said it forever affected the body politic. And that is the way he responded. It has not healed within the body politic itself. BF: But I think the main thing that is going on now is more and more [inaudible]. I do not know what forces there are right now that are going to reverse that [inaudible]. SM: What are your thoughts on the Vietnam Memorial when you see it? Has it done the job of healing the nation in any way beyond the veteran community? What are your thoughts on that? What do you think of it? BF: Well, what I like about the Vietnam Memorial is that it does not glorify war. We have too many statues of people with swords on horseback. I guess it affects different people in different ways, but it is certainly not something which encourages militarism. On the other hand, what was... McNamara's estimate of the number of Vietnamese killed, 325,000 [inaudible] 250,000- SM: [inaudible]- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with H. Bruce Franklin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Franklin, H. Bruce (Howard Bruce), 1934- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Historians; Authors, American--20th century College teachers; Rutgers University; Franklin, H. Bruce (Howard Bruce), 1934--Interviews Description An account of the resource H. Bruce Franklin is an American cultural historian and scholar. He has received top awards in American Studies, science fiction, prison literature, and marine ecology. Franklin has written and edited nineteen books, three hundred professional articles, and has participated in several film productions. He was awarded the Pearson-Bode Prize for lifetime achievement in American Studies. Franklin currently is the Professor of English and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey. He received his Bachelor's degree from Amherst College and his Ph.D. from Stanford University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.190 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 46:50 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0e3f397c603aef291c2b046b77c117b4.jpg c9c430f3d8bfafbfef9a924125e6c41b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bc633fb80f9a6c99e332b7295c745c39.mp3 849b792ff339d29ab6d38c37b095609e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-08-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hal Phoenix Muscat Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 79:59 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe; North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO); Activism; American G.I.; WWII; Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Vietnam Veterans Against the War; United States Department of Veterans Affairs."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe; North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO); Activism; American G.I.; WWII; Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Vietnam Veterans Against the War; United States Department of Veterans Affairs. Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Muscat, Phoenix--Interviews Biographical Text Hal Phoenix Muscat is a Vietnam War veteran who became a GI activist when he began opposing the U.S. war against Vietnam, in 1968, while stationed in Germany. Upon his return to Fox Dix, N.J in April 1969, he became involved with SHAKEDOWN (an anti-war publication for GIs on base and off base at coffeehouse locations). He had two court-martials for distributing unauthorized literature and served six months in army brigs after the second conviction. He was discharged from Fort Knox, KY, where he worked on FTA, the newspaper on base. In 1988, he participated with other Vietnam vets going to Nicaragua. He is one of the four G.I. activists profiled in the film No Sir. Prior to this film, he was the co-founder of the San Francisco Bay Area "Vietnam Speakers Alliance" and is a key leader of the San Francisco chapter of Veterans For Peace. He is currently involved in Burning Man as a participant and activist. He lives with his family in the San Francisco Bay Area. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Hal Phoenix Muscat Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Muscat, Hal Phoenix ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Muscat, Phoenix--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.90 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 79:59 Description An account of the resource Hal Phoenix Muscat is a Vietnam War veteran who became a GI activist when he began opposing the U.S. war against Vietnam, in 1968, while stationed in Germany. Upon his return to Fox Dix, N.J in April 1969, he became involved with SHAKEDOWN (an anti-war publication for GIs on base and off base at coffeehouse locations). He had two court-martials for distributing unauthorized literature and served six months in army brigs after the second conviction. He was discharged from Fort Knox, KY, where he worked on FTA, the newspaper on base. In 1988, he participated with other Vietnam vets going to Nicaragua. He is one of the four G.I. activists profiled in the film No Sir. Prior to this film, he was the co-founder of the San Francisco Bay Area "Vietnam Speakers Alliance" and is a key leader of the San Francisco chapter of Veterans For Peace. He is currently involved in Burning Man as a participant and activist. He lives with his family in the San Francisco Bay Area.