75 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d96699ab0ba190f76ffd30adcc2fe4fb.mp3 e8d3af19907218c27e7991f1f71ca306 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1/16/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henry Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Henry attended Harpur College along with Syracuse University, but left to fly in the Airforce. After being stationed in Iceland and South Caroline, Henry earned the rank of First Lieutenant. He currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Victoria. Together, they have two children and five grandchildren.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Henry attended Harpur College along with Syracuse University, but left to fly in the Airforce. After being stationed in Iceland and South Caroline, Henry earned the rank of First Lieutenant. He currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Victoria. Together, they have two children and five grandchildren.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Turkey; genocide; Armenia; assimilation; Tashnag; Hunchak; politics; family names; Endicott Johnson; Binghamton; Armenian language; traditions; discrimination; identity; church; dance; Armenian Genocide march; United Nations &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Turkey; genocide; Armenia; assimilation; Tashnag; Hunchak; politics; family names; Endicott Johnson; Binghamton; Armenian language; traditions; discrimination; identity; church; dance; Armenian Genocide march; United Nations </span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Henry Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 16 January 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:06 JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian; I am interviewing Henry Kachadourian for the Binghamton University Oral History Project. Today is January 16, 2017. Can you please start with some basics, your name birth place, biographical information? So what is your name? Please state your name? 0:25 HK: Henry Kachadourian. 0:28 JK: Who were your parents? 0:30 HK: My parents were Parsegh and Yeghsa Kachadourian. My mother’s maiden name was Arslanian. 0:39 JK: And where are they from? 0:42 HK: They are from the state of Harput which is now part of Turkey. 0:49 JK: And how did they immigrate to the United States? 0:53 HK: Well, it was an unusual situation, my grandfather came here first and was sending money to them back in Armenia to migrate– My mother to migrate here, with her mother and her other brother and sister. My father migrated from France to United States. My mother went to Montreal and at the time when she got here they cut off the immigration quota, she could not come in legally so she smuggled into the country with the help of her brother, my uncle, Charlie Arslanian. My father he took a boat from Toulouse, France to the United States. He was supposed to go on to go the boat, the boat stopped in Boston, Massachusetts and the boat was supposed to go on to Ellis Island but he got off at Boston because his godfather was there in Worcester, Massachusetts. So he got off at Boston and he came to United States to Worcester, to Boston to Worcester, Massachusetts. My mother smuggled from Montreal to Boston with the Montreal-Boston train and, and with the help of her– my uncle, Charlie Arslanian. 2:26 JK: And what was their reasoning for coming to the United States? 2:31 HK: To have a better life. 2:33 JK: Was it during the genocide? 2:35 VK: To escape the genocide. 2:37 HK: Yes, basically the genocide, the Armenian genocide in Turkey. 2:43 JK: Now did they leave– were they effected by the genocide at all, did they any– 2:49 HK: Yes, my mother lost her brother, and her mother and her mother and mother was killed by the Turks and her younger brother was taken by the Turks and brought up as a Turk, she had lost contact with them she had to march through the center of Turkey in genocide when she was transported by the Turks to– she ended up in Beirut, Lebanon and from there, a relative helped her to come to America. 3:28 JK: Okay and was there– you were saying your father, he lived in the mountains as a– your father lived in the mountains– 3:39 HK: My father and his family were sheep herders, they had very little education and my mother who came from the village, where there were schools, my mother was well educated and her family was well educated. My father was a sheep herder but he came to America, he could not even read or write Armenian even. My mother had to teach him how to speak, he knew how to speak Armenian but he could not read and write and my mother had to teach him. 4:15 JK: And what was the story about your father with involvement with the Turkish government and how they were escaping? 4:24 HK: Well, when the genocide started they went after, the first state they went– The Turks went after, interior Turkey so other nationalities or other people in Turkey would not have known there was a massacre going on. They started with the inner Turkey, the first state they went after, they went into was Harput, the reason for that was it was inner Turkey and there was less contact to the outside world. Also it was known for a fact that the Harputsis were real Armenian fighters, I mean they were like some of them were like renegades and the Turks wanted to that bunch first, that group of Armenians first before they got out of hand and the next state they went after was Arapkir, which your grandmothers from and her parents from and that was the second state they went. When they came to get my father they only sent five or six Turkish soldiers at there up there in the mountains. Well that did not cut, they did not work out because my grandfather, my father’s clan were warriors and they took care of those Turks. Before you know it they sent a brigade and captured my father’s clan and other mountaineer people and marched them down to village. When they were marching them down the village, my father and my uncle and another Armenian man dove into the river or lake there and swam for it. The other Armenian man died which I do not know his name, he got wounded, I think my uncle might have got wounded too, and that was how escaped from being slaughtered. My mother she was told to the fields to work, my mother did not listen to anybody, she went to school, went to classes and while in classes she was not supposed to be there she still stayed there. She wanted to be educated and when the slaughter started to take place in the village of Harput, that was the state but the city was named Hoğe. She was called Hoğesis. 7:04 VK: Oh Hoğesis. 7:05 HK: Right. My father was from Astvad [Astvadzadzin], that area was called Astvad in the state of Harput and he was they were Astvadsis. When the slaughter took place where my mother was, they marched all the young people out and got rid of the elderly people, they took my mother’s brother and made him into a Turk, adopt him into a Turk family and mother eventually ended up after the march some place into Beirut, Lebanon and her uncle, her uncle, Minas Kaprelian helped her come to America and that was how she got here. 7:56 JK: Wow, okay so how did your parents meet, did they meet in America or you were saying how– 8:04 VK: Well, my mother smuggled into this country on the Bos– the Montreal-Boston train and she got a job as a salad girl in the Biltmore hotel and plaza in Providence, Rhode Island. [laughs] And from there, another Armenian who had an eye on my mother and mother did not care for him, he went and turned, turned my mother in and her brother. They were working there, another Armenian did, that they were–that her– she was in the country illegally and her brother smuggled her here from Montreal. When my mother was still at work, they picked up her brother, Charles Arslanian. Garabed–the first name in Armenian is Garabed, they had arrested him and they were waiting for my mother. One of the other chamber maid Armenian women that worked at the hotel at Biltmore in Providence warned my mother the police were waiting for her. So she never went back to her room and went strictly to Boston, I mean Worcester, Mass to the first church and the priest there and his wife hid my mother in the first church of Armenian Church in North America. It was a small, like a one room church with a backroom to it and that was where they hid my mother and my father who was looking for a wife heard about my mother and he came to Worcester at first and came to Binghamton because of our cousin Ohanian wanted him to come under– come to Binghamton he had job for him at Endicott-Johnson. On weekends my, Charlie, his friend Chuck [unintelligible] and my father would drive from after work on Friday all the way to Worcester, Mass and that was how my mother met, my father met my mother. After the second trip, he met; going back he brought a wedding– an engagement ring. Well my mother did not care for my father but she liked the ring [laughs] so the priest says wait a minute, if you want this fella’s ring you got to have the fella. [laughs] And that was how they met, my mother, my father brought my mother they got married they came to Binghamton, they got married and then– and for fifteen years, the federal authorities were looking for my mother. She– my mother was on the run, so when World War II started all the– all aliens or non-citizens had to register for World War Interviewer. The minute my mother registered, that was when they caught her and that was the registry took place some place on Charles and Clinton Street in Binghamton, New York and after that my mother was placed on house arrest and we all, my father, my mother and um that was 1940. And my sister, my two brothers we all had to go to a federal court in Syracuse, New York to be deported. 12:21 JK: Oh my gosh, so what happened after that? 12:38 HK: The war broke out and they ̶ my mother, my mother went on to become a citizen. 12:51 JK: That is crazy. 12:54 HK: I did have the picture where she got her citizenship, I do not see it here. Here is my mother’s picture when she became a citizen and it was 1945. 13:19 JK: Wow. 13:21 HK: She went to night school to learn how– my mother learned how to speak English from reading the funnies. She was self-educated, looking at the pictures like Little Orphan Annie, Dick Tracy that was how she got a basic idea how– the understanding of English. Another thing, one thing unique about my mother and father like most Americans that immigrated here, most foreign people they wanted to become Americans back then, it was not like today. They learned the language, they dressed American and father wore a suit and tie, every day after work. 14:08 JK: So they assimilated to the culture of America, they assimilated to the culture– 14:13 HK: Right, they wanted to be Americans and show that they were better than other Americans that were here. 14:20 JK: Now in the community, have they, when they came to Binghamton and lived here did they stay here their whole lives? 14:35 HK: Yeah, they mi– when they, they became, they came to– about 1936, (19)37 they bought their first piece of property and in 1938 and in 1940 they ended up– in 1936 we got evicted out in the street because we could not pay the rent, all our furniture was put out in the street. 14:56 JK: Oh my gosh. 14:57 HK: And we were on the corner of Jarvis and Clinton and from there my mother went to the– Welfare came and helped up and put us back in, payed the rent to landlord. A pharmacist on Clinton Street, near Philadelphia sales, they paid the month’s rent, I think the rent was either five or six dollars a month. [laughs] And my mother went to Binghamton city bank, who held a mortgage on the building [phone rings], held a mortgage on the building, that we were living on the corner of Jarvis and Clinton. Somehow, somewhere my mother got enough money to make a down payment and bought the building for five thousand dollars. 15:53 JK: Wow. 15:54 HK: I was with here, it was a day of rain– it was raining and we walked back all the way back to Jarvis Street. My mother could not believe that she bought the building, she made us walk back in the rain, to verify that we had bought that piece of property and everybody in the neighborhood ridiculed her and joked about her buying the building. They said you do not own it but she did, the bankers told her, ‘you bought the building Alice, the building belongs to you.’ 16:26 JK: That is crazy, that is amazing, wow. So growing up, in Binghamton, did you guys have a lot of Armenian experiences and culture going on here? Was there other Armenians? 16:40 HK: Growing up, there were two factions of Armenians, there were the Tashnag party and the Hunchak party and because we were very poor, we associated with most, even though we went to the church which was controlled by the Hunchaks here, that was the Tashnag, I associated because they were poor like we were and they had an Armenian school on Jarvis Street and my friends mother, Mrs. [unintelligible] taught Armenian school there. And that was where it, it helped me to learn Armenian. 17:17 JK: Now did you attend normal high school in like Binghamton or did you go to the Armenian school? 17:23 HK: No, we went to public schools, we were very poor, my brother, the doctor who is a doctor now, and I we were taken out of school because we wore bathing suits, we did not have clothing. We wore bathing suits to– we did not have normal clothing to go to school because we were on welfare. We wore bathing suits to school and we were–they were ready to take– break the family up, take us away from our parents, so we had to like for some reason or another we went through that period and eventually got back on our feet and before we moved into the second floor on Jarvis and Clinton and we were tenants there and got evicted and eventually buying the place, we lived in our cousins. Because my father came to Binghamton because his cousin was here and my cousin got him a job, we lived in the basement. 18:37 JK: Wow. 18:37 HK: And then from the basement, of course we had to pay rent to our cousin [laughs] and we went from the basement up to the attic and the rooms were separated with a clothesline with a blanket. [laughs] 18:57 JK: Wow. 19:00 HK: And uh, the toilet was a potty. [laughs] 19:05 JK: Wow, crazy. 19:07 HK: That was how tough it was and then I grew up, I grew up I had to be tough in that area, anybody who knew the first ward was one of the toughest areas to grow up, it was a very poor area, quite a few people in poverty, there was other people in the same shoes or even worse than we were. 19:35 JK: Wow. So when you were in high school, did you have other Armenian friends? 19:39 HK: Yeah, I had a lot of Armenian friends here but there was not that many families, basically we did not have regular church service, we had church maybe once every oh I would say once every couple of months they would, a priest would come from out of town to how service here in our church, 38 Corbin Avenue which is called Saint Gregory Armenian Church. 20:07 JK: Which is still here today? 20:08 HK: What? 20:08 JK: Which is still here today, right? 20:11 HK: Yeah, from, that church was acquired sometime around nineteen twenty-nine when a group of Armenians here in the area and then it was very difficult in those times. I used to have to, when there was some– when I was a young boy; I used to have to shovel coal into the furnace to keep the church warm during services. And then if I forgot, I would get a bop over my head and get down there and throw more coal in the furnace. 20:43 VK: No wonder you do not have any hair. [laughs] 20:51 HK: And the only way to get furnace was to go outside the church, around the outside, pick up a wooden door, trap door and go down into the basement. 21:04 JK: Oh my gosh! They made you do that [phone rings], that is crazy. 21:11 HK: And also, there was another Armenian boy, that I grew up with, mostly were in the same area and they were my age or younger and there were a few that were older but quite a few went on to be, we have a community here, that was unique to any place else in the United States with the Armenians. We had had, somewhere between fourteen and seventeen young people went on to become M.D.s, doctors and that was unique in the United States, we had the most doctors, self-grown doctors in the United States, in the small community of Binghamton, New York. 21:56 JK: Wow that is crazy, so growing up, oh let me get back to this, did you have any siblings growing up? 22:04 HK: Yes I had one sister and two brothers. 22:09 JK: And what is their age difference to you? 22:13 HK: My sister is three years older than I am and my other brother, the doctor, he is a year and half younger than I am and the other one is four years younger than I am. 22:26 JK: And could you please state their first names, their first names. 22:32 HK: My youngest brother is Arslan, the next youngest is Aristaks and I am the second oldest, Henry, and my Armenian name is Harutun and Louise is the oldest, my sister and her Armenian name is Lalezar. 22:51 JK: So, your names, did they switch when you came to America, your names? 22:58 HK: No I was born, we all– my brothers and sister and I were born here. 23:05 JK: Okay got it, yes, and so growing up did you were your called Harutun or Henry more often? 23:14 HK: Well in church, I was called Harutun, among the old timers, I was called Harutun, in school I was called Henry, I was going to be called, when I was born in May of 1931, I was going to be called, my mother wanted me to be called Harry, because that was her brother that was taken by the Turks and when my mother found out there was already one Harry, Harry Kradjian here, she says nothing to worry I am not going to have two Harrys in town so said one of the RN has asked her why do not you– told her why do not you name him Henry and that was what she did. 24:07 JK: Do you know what Harutun means in Armenian, is it a direct translation? 24:11 HK: It means Harry. 24:12 JK: Do you know what about your brother’s and sister’s what they mean, are they– 24:17 HK: Lalezar I think Lalezar [tulip garden in Turkish and Kurdish,] means flower, Louise in Armenian, it means flower. Aristaks that name was, it is in the Bible, Aristaks my mother got that name and then my younger brother Arslan, he was named after the last name of the–her maiden name Arslanian. That means. Arslan means strong. 24:49 JK: Okay, There is, you know how your name means something, your last name in Armenian means, it was your occupation, like– 25:00 HK: No, I do not know that. 25:02 JK: You did not know that? 25:04 HK: No. 25:04 JK: So like my mom’s side, Kabakian it has to do with squash and pumpkins, so it would make sense that they sold– like had a farm and sold squash and– 25:25 HK: Well, in some– in the old–in pre–in the early times of Armenia– early periods you were named after your father, if your father’s name was Kachadour, you were called Kachadourian, that meant the son of Kachadour– 25:41 JK: Yeah. 25:44 HK: If your mother was Yaksan, your last name was–your mother–you were named Yaksanian, you were named after–but that changed over time. Whatever your grandfather’s name was, your father would take, and then you would take your father’s name but the Scandinavians today I do not–when I was–up until 1915, Norway and Sweden and Iceland or Denmark, they still carry on that tradition. If your mother’s name was Helda, you were called Heldadaughter and your father’s name was– your last name became Heldadaughter if your father’s name was John, you were called Johnson, Johnson, son of Johnson that was how was with the Armenians. 26:38 JK: Yeah, very interesting. Now, did you guys have any– in Binghamton– did you guys have any Armenian get together other than church? Like, picnics or dances? 26:55 HK: Yes, I can relate going back to the picnics going back nineteen thirties, we did not have an automobile and somebody would or some family who had automobiles would have to pick us up and take us to the picnics. Soft drinks– for example, we were so poor; soft drinks were a nickel they sold at the picnic because I was so poor John Kachorian would give me a soft drink and hide it– I would hide it and so other people would not see it and I never forgot that. He worked at Endicott- Johnson and he was sort of like the head of the picnic along with Mr. Manoog Bogdasarian. They were like the church elders and they always had the picnics and our picnics were about up around Port Crane along the river bank. 27:54 JK: That is crazy. I remember hearing that because, another person who did the interviews, he interviewed some other local Armenians of Binghamton and they would say they– 28:07 HK: We did not, because we were poor we were looked at–we were looked down and only the side that did not go to the church, the Tashnags, they associated with us until 1950, until the fellows of my age and they, the generation ahead of me like Dr. Bogdasarian and Dr. Garabedian and Dr. Markarian and Dr. Avedisian, not Dr.–not Avedisian it was Abashians– they had– each one of these families had two or three doctors in the family. They were very hard working people and the one who set the– I would say Dr. Robert Bogdasarian, he went to the University of Michigan and then quite a few followed soon after that. 29:11 JK: That is crazy. 29:12 HK: I did not associate with– and then the Korean War came along and we all went our separate ways and when we came back we got married and had our own families. 29:25 JK: And you stayed in Binghamton? 29:26 HK: No I did not, I met my wife in Philadelphia. 29:30 VK: No, she is saying you stayed in Binghamton. 29:33 HK: Yes, I came– we finally– by way– I came– we came to Binghamton 29:39 JK: So growing up, there were a lot of Armenians in the community, did they– 29:14 HK: There were– I would say growing up in Jarvis Street School, in [inaudible] I would say in my class ahead of me and the class the next two or three classes behind, there were approximately about fifteen to twenty Armenians boys. 30:02 JK: That is a lot. 30:03 HK: And girls. 30:04 VK: For a small community that is quite a lot. 30:06 JK: And did they all migrate different places or did they stay in Binghamton like growing up? 30:11 HK: They all eventually came here for the same reason– their parents came here for work, Endicott- Johnson and the other shoe factory in Endicott– Dunn McCarthy’s– they made– Dunn McCarthy’s were known for making ladies shoes. 30:27 VK: She asked if they stayed in Binghamton. 30:29 JK: Like, now today are most of them– 30:30 HK: Well quite a few stayed except for the fact that some of them went from here to Detroit because the factory–auto industry and some before the World War II and some migrated because there was a lot more Armenians in Detroit at that time. There was about twenty to twenty five thousands Armenians in the– although there were quite a few that migrated to California, there is a large contingent of Armenians that live there and that was why they went there, so the– so their children would become Armenianized and not lose their heritage. 31:05 JK: That is crazy. So you can speak Armenian but– you can speak Armenian but you cannot write it, is that correct? 31:14 HK: I can speak but I cannot write, no. The only member of the family that could write Armenian is my sister, she can read and write. I cannot read Armenian either, I can only speak it. 31:26 JK: And have you ever wanted or have you ever traveled back to Armenia to the villages? 31:31 HK: No, never have everybody in the family except for me and my wife Victoria. 31:38 JK: Would you– if you had the chance would you like to go or no? 31:42 HK: If I was younger age, not being over eighty-five, I would, I just do not– I just do not have the ambition anymore. 31:56 JK: Did they– did your brothers and sisters, did they enjoy themselves in Armenia, did they learn a lot? 32:05 HK: Yes, they had, they said they enjoyed– they went sightseeing, they went and saw historical places and they saw where the first church were, and the church that is the symbol of Armenians. Armenians were not the first Christians in the world, but they were the first country to accept Christianity. And the historical church there in Etchmiadzin is still there today. It has been there for over two thousand years and they, the Muslims for two thousand years tried to convert the Armenians from Christians to Muslims and after two thousand years they left the Armenians alone. They said you would have to kill every one of them otherwise you just leave them alone. 33:01 JK: Yeah, very strong, we were very strong. 33:05 HK: You had to be strong otherwise you would have never survive. Right, honey? 33:10 VK: Yep. 33:12 JK: So um you did attend Armenian language school correct, right? You attended Armenian language school, growing up? 33:23 HK: No, in– lot a part of the (19)30s and early part of (19)40s, there was no school here at per se, one of the elder woman, one from the family– Armenian families who would teach Armenian school, and you had pay like twenty-five cents to go to class. 33:49 JK: Oh wow. 33:49 HK: Twenty-five cents for every class you came, you had to bring a quarter. 33:54 JK: That is crazy. 33:55 VK: Yeah, I never heard of such a thing. 33:57 JK: Wow! 34:00 HK: The reason for that was to pay the taxes on the building in the–it was not associated with the church or anything and it was hard times, it was like when Dr. Bagdasarian sister who helped pay, he was going to University of Michigan and his sister Lilian Bagdasarian later on she married and became Lilian [unintelligible]. She would come to our house after work at five o’clock and give Louise and I piano lessons for fifty cents an hour or fifty cents a half an hour and then– and she did that every week and I did not pick up the piano that well but Louise did very well and she learned how to play the piano and read music. 34:52 JK: Wow. So growing up did you guys have– your family– did you guys have Armenian friends or normal American friends growing up? 35:05 HK: I had both. I could not say one or the other, the Armenian friends were social, we would associate on weekends mostly. 35:17 JK: Okay. 35:18 HK: And we would get together on weekends, primarily either from the church or from the picnics. And then, my American friends were basically from school, and playing sports. 35:38 JK: Okay and did your friends, your American friends, did they know about Armenia like when you said you are Armenian, they did not know. 35:47 HK: My American friends did not have the foggiest idea what Armenian was. They did not have the foggiest idea. 35:56 VK: Our school teachers did not even know what Armenia was. 36:00 JK: Oh my gosh 36:01 HK: Did not have the foggiest idea. 36:05 VK: Did your teachers know Armenian, none of my teachers knew what Armenian was. 36:10 HK: The reason why our Armenian community was never united, we never had church or community center to go to and become part of, a part of the whole community and when we first got our priest to come here and after we had the church, he was getting paid I think twenty dollars a month, five dollars a week. After a year or two, a year he wanted a pay raise of five dollars for the month, we could not pay him so we told him to leave. He wanted a raise from twenty dollars a month to twenty-five. And that was our– and after that we did not have any more priests until, let us see, I would say around 1960s around when Father Arakelian came here, when he got married he came as Deacon from St. Nersess. From that–from 1930 to 1960, in the (19)60s or early (19)70s– later (19)60s we had a visiting priest that would come here like once a month, from the Diocese out of New York City. 37:40 JK: That is very interesting, wow. So did your celebrate a lot of Armenian traditions like Armenian Christmas for example. 37:49 HK: Yeah, we followed the Armenian traditions for Christmas, Easter and all the other religious Armenian holidays and Martyr’s day. 38:04 JK: And did you guys have any– what was it like growing up in your household? Did you guys have all like Armenian food– growing up? 38:19 HK: My mother, my mother did not have a good background because she was a young girl she was only like eight or nine years old when she way taken away by the Turks and she had really no experience-she had knowledge of Armenian food but knowing the recipe and making it, she did not have the expertise like when I used to visit other Armenian families or other churches they would know exactly. Once you would taste their food, you knew you were eating the real thing. My mother had to make up her own recipe. 39:02 JK: Now, was your mom– back in Armenia– was she separated by any of her family members? 39:09 HK: Hm? 39:09 JK: Did she– when she was separated by her family members in Armenia, did they ever reconnect or anything? 39:18 VK: When she was separated from her family, did she ever reconnect with her family? 39:25 HK: No, the ones over there she never reconnected, when she came here her, her father was dead–buried in Edison Cemetery in Lowell, Mass, it is a municipal cemetery but the plot– the people from her village in Harput and the village of Hoğe. They bought a plot for about with fifty or sixty people to be buried there that lived around Lowell, Massachusetts and they could be buried there with no trouble– no cost at all. And that is where my Uncle and my grandfather are buried there, yeah her mother was killed by the Turks and brother was taken by the Turks. 40:24 JK: And was it like– were they killed in Armenia or were they? 40:31 HK: No, they were killed in Armenia. 40:34 JK: So how did your sister get to escape? 40:39 HK: My mother? 40:39 VK: Your father 40:40 JK: Yes. 40:40 VK: Yeah, how did your father escape too? 40:42 HK: My father escaped? He dove into a river and– you are talking about my father now? 40:50 JK: Your mother, how did she- 40:51 HK: My mother? 40:52 JK: How did she escape? 40:53 HK: They had a march. They marched all the Armenians into the– into the– 40:57 JK: The desert? 41:00 HK: In Syria, into the desert to kill them. Somehow my mother– she was a go getter and she knew what was happening, so she ran and hid and I do not know how she survived but she eventually ended up in Beirut, Lebanon where her Aunt– where her cousin was. 41:24 JK: So she found her cousin? That is crazy. She found her cousin? Oh my God. 41:29 HK: Yeah and it was my cousin who gave them money and he gave her so she could immigrate to American and get to her brother. But we– she repaid– we repaid our uncle– our cousins over there in Beirut, when the war started in (19)75 or the banks were closed in Beirut, so we gave them between five and six thousand dollars and they wanted repay it but we said no, you do not have you, this is for helping our mother come to America. 42:11 JK: Wow. Very nice 42:12 HK: Believe me on your grandmother’s side, the Kabakians and the Kachadourians, we got no help, we did not any help from any Armenians for anybody and if we did get help we got help from the Main Street Baptist Church and the Protestants, or the Kachadourians did and we never forgot that, we repaid the Main Street Baptist Church by– then when they had their seventy fifth anniversary we made the short fall for the missionary in Africa. 42:52 JK: Wow that is amazing, so getting back to your life here in Binghamton, did you end up going to college once you left high school? Or did any of your siblings went to college? After graduating from high school did any of your siblings, including yourself, go to high school? 43:14 HK: Yes– a college– my sister went into nursing and became an RN [Registered Nurse], Louise. My brother went to Wayne State and then to Syracuse University became a doctor and I attended Harpur and Syracuse University at two years accredited college and I left school to fly in the Airforce. 43:41 JK: And, how long were you in the Air Force for? 43:44 HK: Approximately four years, I was stationed in Keflavik, Iceland, in air rescue and I was stationed in Charleston, South Carolina and I was in military air transport which is called MATCH and also at McGuire Airforce base. I raised to the rank of First Lieutenant. 44:02 JK: Wow that is amazing. Very cool. So after, after the Airforce you came back to Binghamton and then you met– 44:15 HK: No, I did not meet your grandmother, I was stationed in Keflavik, Iceland and my brother who was at Syracuse University was attending a medical get together– medical association group in Atlantic City, ran into my future wife, Victoria, at the hotel, got her name, my mother was afraid I might an Icelandic or a Scandinavian girl. So she sent me, my brother gave her the address of my– of your grandmother, Victoria– in Philadelphia and my mother got a hold of the address and mailed it to me and up in Keflavik, Iceland after World War II, there was real separate– the Airforce, Airforce and Navy flyers all built together their officers and we used to read each other’s mail. And one of the Navy Airforce Officer’s wrote a letter to my wife because I did not want to write the letter, they wrote the letter. 45:38 VK: I am just finding this out now, I did not even know this. 45:43 HK: –Wrote the letter and your grandmother, Victoria sends a picture of herself and the flyer said– the guys that wrote the letter were reading the mail, he says “Henry if you are not going to Philadelphia to check this out, we going to go to Philadelphia” and that was how I met your mother I mean my wife–your grandmother. 46:05 JK: That is amazing. Oh my gosh. 46:08 HK: So I really, I never met– listen, Jackie that is a true story. 46:20 VK: I never knew that. You know what happened. I was in Atlantic City and he comes knocking on the door and there was a party. So he pops his head in and we are short one girl at our party, this is Art now. So I said to my cousin, I said oh okay we could go and he says “oh no just one”– oh no and so later on when we went downstairs to talk to the girl at the desk for the bus, what time the bus is going to leave um, he pops up Art pops up so he said well can I have your name and address and all this kind of stuff. So I say to myself how is he going to remember, he will never remember because he did not have a pencil or paper so I say sure. And not knowing he had a pretty darn good memory. So he ships the name and address over to him– 47:24 HK: You know this is a true story, I cannot make this stuff up, it is like surreal, you know, how things happened back then and that was how it was and in fact my mother and– or when your grandmother, your grandmother here, how their parents, their parents were put together. In other– you would meet the man and you would meet the family and your grandmother, your great grandmother would walk along with them and in like the movie The Godfather and that was how it was in the old days. There was no going out and going here and going there in a long courtship, it was like one two three and that was it. Am I right honey? 48:17 VK: [Speaks Armenian] My grandmother, I said mom. 48:23 HK: That was a period– the fittest survived. 48:27 VK: Yeah, the fittest. Here was how I was [shows picture]. Grandma and mama on one side, dragging me in to the– 48:42 HK: Vicki, I am talking, I am talking before you. It was not just your grandmother’s family and mine, it was thousands of Armenians just like us, who struggled, came to America wanted to be Americans, not like some of the people who come here today, they wanted to be Americans, they wanted to dress like Americans, they wanted to learn the language, they proved to the people that were living here they were just as good or better. They overcame, it was not just the Armenians it was the Slovak people, it was the Italians, it was the Irish, it was the Jewish people. They struggled and they wanted to become somebody and become something and there were–and they did it, no matter how great the odds were, they did not quit. They did not–the word quit was not in their vocabulary. 49:42 VK: The first priority was becoming American, speaking the language, learning the language, it was. it was not easy, it was not easy. Different culture there, different type of food and everything else. Different religions and they came and built their own– 50:06 HK: And you know what I cannot understand everybody that came here, whether black, white or yellow they were discriminated, the Irish were discriminated, the Italians, the Armenians and this discrimination will never end. You might temporarily, but the problem here is people make a big issue out of being discriminated. Discrimination was going on way before, thousands of years before we were we born. And it will continue on no matter what, you cannot change people. There will always be discrimination to some degree. 50:51 JK: Exactly. That is crazy. So, when you were getting married, when you were looking for a wife, did your mom and father, did they want you to marry Armenian? 51:02 HK: Yes, they wanted me to marry Armenians but then there was a lot of stipulations. 51:11 VK: [whispers] She hated me. 51:11 HK: It was period where we were first– I was first generation, my wife first generation– were first born here and we were going through a period– it became to easier for my daughter and your father to get married later on because, the American tradition, the way you are suppose– the way things are done over here, we had a mix– it had a mixture between the other side and America. And there were, we were trying to pacify our parents and grandparents we were trying to blend it and make the best out of the both worlds. Your father and your aunt and your other aunt’s and other– your mother’s fa–brothers and sisters did not go through that because they were the next generation. But the first generation was a little difficult like you just could not go out and marry somebody that was not Armenian, that was looked upon down. 52:22 JK: Wow. So did you want to marry someone Armenian? 52:27 HK: Hm? 52:27 JK: Did you want to marry someone Armenian? 52:28 HK: Oh yes, I did because you see not marrying an Armenian, not marrying an Armenian you lose– you do not have– you do not understand the tradition and the hardship that both the families went through, you lose the language and you lose the language you lose the church and if you lose the church you lose your heritage as far as an Armenians concerned. The church and the heritage and the language as Armenian go hand in hand without that being blend all together, your future generation is going to be watered down and the grand children or the great grandchildren and the great, great grandchildren will not even know where they came from. 53:20 JK: Yeah. Exactly. When you– older– later on you had two children and did you want them to marry Armenians. Did you put pressure on them to– 53:29 HK: I would like to– 53:30 VK: No we did not put pressure on them but they knew– 53:22 HK: I would like that but the problem here is that there is different– there is different Armenians. See when my parents and your– my wife’s parents came here that was another group– that was another generation– that was a generation of Armenians that was really called the Armenians. They were true, true Armenians right from the heart, it came from the heart. The Armenians that come over here hand been Sovietized or Russianized or they been Muslimized. Not that their Muslims, not that their Russians but they have been influenced and they leave a bad taste with other Armenians and also with Americans that are live here. 53:34 VK: Sometimes they think that this country owes them when they come here, in other words, Harutun do not you get that? 54:46 HK: Yeah, see when the Armenians that came like your, your Kabakian side, for example, the churches were here, the schools were here, they went out– in other words during the Depression it was tough, the Armenians did not have the money, they did not have– did not know the language, did not know the ins and outs of government how things work over here and they struggled they built these churches and schools. The ones that came after World War II, hey this is it, it was not that way, it was hard work and they struggled the ones that were here. 55:33 JK: Yeah, they went through a lot. 55:35 HK: You understand what I am saying. 55:37 JK: Yeah, of course. 55:38 HK: I am not trying to put a knock on anybody but that is the way it was. That is how I see it and the ones that came after World War II, everything was always already in place for them. 55:50 JK: They did not have to work for it. 55:51 HK: They did not have to struggle, besides, there were no jobs during the depression, where were they going to get the money? You know how much I was bringing? I did not even want to go to church sometimes because I could only put a nickel in the plate. I wanted my mother and father to give me at least a quarter, they did not have a quarter to give me. 56:12 VK: But we were discriminated against too. 56:20 HK: You mean we were discriminated because we did not have any money? 56:23 VK: No, no, no. They did not know– my teacher did not know if we had money. 56:28 HK: That was a given fact, they did not know what Armenians were, they did not have an understanding of Armenians and a lot of people thought Armenians were like Arabs, they were nomads. That is a fact, in the school books and the library when I was– and I looked up Armenians and they had Armenians are Nomads, they were wanderers. 56:50 VK: They were wanderers because they wandered away from the genocide. Unbelievable, unbelievable. Yeah I heard they were Nomads. 57:03 HK: What? 57:04 VK: Nomads 57:05 HK: Right that is what I read, I remember this where I saw that, it was in the library at Daniel S. Dickinson the basement library. 57:18 JK: That is crazy. So did– how would you consider yourself, like what would define yourself as? Being– 57:24 HK: A true American Armenian, American first without America I was– I was– my family, my wife’s family and all the others Armenians that came here after the slaughter, after World War I, would not be nothing without America. I consider myself, an American first and Armenian second. 57:51 JK: What about you? 57:52 VK: I agree– 57:53 JK: Same thing– 57:54 HK: When I say American first, I would give my life for this country. 57:59 VK: Well you were flying during the war, thank goodness you came out of it. Jeepers! 58:11 HK: You find a person’s true colors and when I was flying in the Airforce, the really the true Americans were from the mid-west or from the south-west. They were so patriotic or from the south, the flyers you said anything derogatory about America, there was no such thing as burning an American flag. Not the stuff that goes on in New York City and California. It was unheard of back then, if you did that while I was in the service you would have got murdered, you would have got clobbered. 58:53 JK: Okay were he– 58:54 HK: I do not consider– I do not consider those people–some of those people in California and some in New York City as Americans. It is only giving lip service. 59:08 JK: So, when– now you have two children now right? 59:13 VK: Yeah, that is all we have [laughter] and grandchildren, five. [laughter] 59:21 JK: Oh I am sure one of them is amazing. [laughter] 59:23 VK: Oh, I am sure that she thinks she is. [laughter] 59:33 HK: You know, I saw when I was in the Service Jackie, I saw a lot of good Americans that died during the Korean War; a lot of good Americans. They gave their– they gave their lives up for this country and the garbage that goes on today with the flag– burning the flag and taken sports at taking a knee! [laughter] 1:00:00 JK: So, your two children can you name how– can you say their names and how old they are? 1:00:08 HK: I have a son, his name is Mark Kachadourian. He is fifty-eight and I have a daughter– 1:00:20 VK: What about their middle names? 1:00:21 HK: Well, Mark Henry. Mark Henry Kachadourian and let us see he is fifty-six–fifty-eight, yeah he is fifty-eight years old. And Corey is– Corey Victoria Kachadourian, my daughter she is fifty-nine. One was born in August one was born in September. 1:00:51 JK: Crazy! 1:00:52 HK: How old did you think your father was? 1:00:54 JK: I do not know [laughs], fifty-seven. 1:00:57 HK: Your father was born in fifty-nine. 1:01:00 JK: Yeah. Crazy! I was thinking fifty-six or fifty-seven. 1:01:07 VK: He is fifty-eight! 1:01:08 JK: Crazy! 1:01:09 HK: Huh? 1:01:10 JK: Crazy! How fast time goes by? 1:01:14 VK: Yeah, in the old days that was old, but now that is middle age, 1:01:19 HK: Well the problem– your mother, your grandmother and I– we were married in fifty-seven, Corey was born in fifty-eight and your father was born in fifty-nine. 1:01:20 VK: One right after the other, yeah. 1:01:37 JK: Wow! Okay, so did you want them– did you– growing up– did they grow up learn Armenian or go to Armenian school or church? 1:01:43 HK: There was no– we did not have regular Armenian Church. We only had a visiting priest that came once every month or once every two months and we did have Armenian school but it was very difficult since we were a small community and the only time they would meet would be on weekends. It was not like it was a large Armenian community where there would be regular functions and dances or social get together. We did not have any of that in this community because we were a small community and at the present time there would roughly only be between thirty or thirty-five–or thirty or thirty-five Armenian families in the area left. 1:02:28 JK: Okay. And most of them moved away to get more– 1:02:31 HK: The problem there they– most of them left the area because the fact that we lost our industry here and the politicians never understood what made this community. It was– IBM and Endicott-Johnson and the other industries came here because we had cheap energy. And that cheap energy came from the coal mines around Scranton and Wilkes Barre, it was less than a half an hour, an hour away. We had the cheapest energy in the world and without indus– without cheap energy, you do not have industry. 1:03:09 JK: Yeah. So did you guys–did they ever attend Armenian dances once in a while? 1:03:15 HK: No there were no Armenian dances here. [ indistinct] 1:03:21 HK: It was not– the Armenian dances did not take place until about– let us see– I would say– (19)50– go ahead– around the early part of (19)60s from when I was growing up, up until even when your father and your aunt were growing up in the area. From 1957 by fifteen– there was nothing we could– for fifteen year– in the Armenian functions– they did not– and fifty –fifteen or twenty years. 1:03:52 JK: Wow. 1:03:53 VK: Did not it go out of town 1:03:55 HK: What? 1:03:55 VK: When it was something going on in Atlantic City– 1:03:59 HK: Out of town but not here. Not locally. 1:04:01 JK: Did they go out of town– where would they go out of town? 1:04:05 HK: Basically, they went out of town to Armenian functions we went to Philadelphia or Atlantic City. 1:04:10 JK: And did you go ever so often–every year? Did you go every year? 1:04:15 HK: We tried to, I mean mostly in the summer months. 1:04:19 JK: Now, do they both know how to speak Armenian? 1:04:24 VK: Do they speak Armenian? 1:04:26 HK: Who is they? 1:04:27 VK: Corey and Mark. 1:04:28 HK: No. 1:04:30 VK: They understand– 1:04:31 HK: They understand– when they were– spent the summer home– at the summer house down in Toms River, New Jersey and they grew up there in the summer, they learned from their grand folks but they–they do have an understanding if someone is speaking Armenian they understand what they are saying. 1:04:49 JK: My dad said he knows how to– because sometimes he says something to my mom in Armenian. 1:04:56 HK: Yeah. 1:04:56 VK: Yeah he probably knows more than he is letting on. You know why– 1:05:04 HK: I wanted, I wanted very much to send you to Montreal and pay to go to Armenian school there with the Kabakians and the Liberians– they would have taught you Armenian but my son did not want you to leave the area. 1:05:22 JK: No I wish I did that that would have been amazing. 1:05:25 HK: It would have been a great summer– and I would have paid for it, it would have been a great summer and you would have become true Armenians. Not by just by name but you would understand the customs and the language. 1:05:39 JK: Yeah. There is so much more of an Armenian community in Montreal. 1:05:43 HK: Oh yeah. I am very–, I am– when I go to Montreal I am impressed. There– when you say Armenian community that is the true sense of the word up there. 1:05:54 JK: They even had a march on April 24th for the Armenian genocide to– 1:06:00 HK: Well your, your father, your grandparents, your– marched in the first march or– in United Nations and your aunt marched the first march of the genocide in the United Nations. I will never forget it. 1:06:19 JK: Really? 1:06:19 HK: It was a cold– 1:06:21 VK: New York City. 1:06:21 HK: Cold April day in New York City and the–the United Nations would not allow us to mark on–march on their side of the, the plaza– We had to cross the street and march across the street and we could not march on the grounds–the United Nations’ grounds. 1:06:42 JK: Wow 1:06:42 HK: And they– we and there– at that time there– I would say there was somewhere between fifty to seventy-five Armenians with signs marching and we did not have a sign, we marched along with them. Remember that, honey? Just to show our support. 1:06:58 JK: That is wonderful. 1:06:59 HK: We made that trip from Stanford, Connecticut on that cold, cold wintery day in, in April– in the springtime and wind was blowing off the ro– east river or the Hudson River even. It was just coming, you know, crisscross in Manhattan it was very dip– it was very hard times but the– it– we just made a show for– to show the world that the Armenians did not forget. 1:07:30 JK: Yeah. Do you think America will ever accept the Armenian genocide as an actual genocide? 1:07:37 VK: At this point, I do not think so. 1:07:41 HK: Hmm? 1:07:41 VK: Do you think America will ever accept the fact that the genocide existed? 1:07:53 HK: See I have– the two sides– the– to the story just like, like in Israel, America has a foreign policy and it has what has to be– and it protects the rights of people. It promotes freedom around the world, but the– they has to balance the one side with the other. It is a two sided– and it is very difficult to say–well– at this point I think they could– they should recognize it but if they– I am a firm believer if they recognize the genocide, this country, it will no longer be in place like it used to. The gov– the Turks and the United States government is doing the Armenians a favor by not recognize it because it is out on the forefront every year. 1:08:53 VK: That is right. It is– 1:08:54 HK: It is out on the forefront. In other words, we will go out there and make them have the risk of a government standby and say look these people were slaughtered and why do not you recognize it? But–and if, if they do recognize it, future generations will not go into the march, will not c– they will commemorate the date, but not like it is now. That is my personal feel. 1:09:23 JK: I agree with that. That is true. 1:09:25 VK: I do not think they are ever going to make any public announcement that this happened. 1:09:33 HK: See the trouble with this is, the presidents that want to get elected, like George Bush, Bill Clinton, Obama. They all promised the Armenians they would recognize the genocide and when they got in the office, what happened? 1:09:53 VK: They forgot all about it. [laughs] 1:09:57 HK: Obama’s speech before the parliament in Turkey says allege or so called, I will never forget the speech he made in Istan–in Ankara, Turkey. The allege massacre. Allege!! Why you– A man cannot stand behind his word. Obama broke his word and so did Bush and so did Bill Clinton. They all broke their word. 1:10:29 JK: They did. 1:10:30 HK: If a man’s word is no good, the man is no good. 1:10:33 JK: They did us a favor, it will never– 1:10:37 HK: Allege! I will never forget what the– Obama said it in front of the parliament, the speech was– you–there–h ad it on the news. The allege massacre! 1:10:50 JK: Terrible. 1:10:51 HK: How about I, I said the allege slavery in America? 1:10:59 VK: [laughs] That is a good one! [laughs] 1:11:03 JK: Crazy. [laughs] 1:11:04 HK: How would Obama like that? Massacre. Really?! The allege massacre? 1:11:11 VK: What about the allege slavery of the blacks and– Pause in recording 1:11:15 JK: Is there anything you want to add about the Armenians or your history or anything? 1:11:22 HK: Yes. The only thing I could say is in my wife and I– in our lifetime– our parents were slaughtered in World War– our grandparents and our parents and their families were slaughtered in World War I and my wife and I, in our lifetime, we have seen nothing but war. We have seen World War I, we have seen the Spanish Civil War in Spain in the thirties. Then we saw World War II, then we saw Korea and then we saw Vietnam and then we saw the war in Iraq and then we saw the war in Afghanistan and now the war in Iraq and the problems in the Middle East. Only thing I only wish for– the remainder of my life there are no wars, hopefully, and from– not only for myself but for future generations over my children and my grandchildren and great grandchildren. That was how I will end it. You want to add anything to that Vicky? 1:12:39 VK: No you said it– 1:12:40 HK: And I hope, I hope, that we can live in peace for at least a period of twenty-five to fifty years. 1:12:40 JK: Wow. Nice. Okay thank you so much. 1:12:53 HK: Hum? 1:12:53 JK: Thank you. 1:12:54 HK: How did I do? 1:12:56 JK: Pretty good. 1:12:57 HK: Oh I do not think so. 1:12:58 VK: Did you read what Mark wrote? 1:13:00 HK: Yeah 1:13:00 VK: I mean he is–– (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Henry Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/92bb28272932ead5dd449c523159ebf3.mp3 86a679d63ff15addb34aab0c12acd3b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-10-17 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henry S. Flax Year of Graduation 1971 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Henry has held many roles in higher education, generation of new business, client service, quality control and cost management. These include positions as Associate Dean of Enrollment Management and Student Development at LaGuardia Community College; Associate Dean of Student Affairs at NYU; as well as positions at SUNY Downstate Medical Center and Hunter College, CUNY. His EdD is from Teachers College at Columbia Universtiy. He has served as sector head for the SUNY University Faculty Senate for the Health Science Centers. Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Brooklyn; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Henry S. Flax Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 17 October 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay. So, this is, um, Wednesday, October 17, 2018, and I am here, Irene Gashurov is here with Dr Henry Flax. So, Dr. Flax, perhaps you could tell us where you [inaudible] HF: 00:28 I was- IG: 00:29 First of all, tell us where we are. HF: 00:31 Okay. We are in Binghamton, New York, being recorded at the DoubleTree Hilton. Again, my name is Henry Flax. I was born in Brooklyn, but grew up in Queens, New York, the bell rose section. After attending Martin Van Buren high school, I enrolled at Harpur College, SUNY Binghamton. IG: 00:55 Okay, we are getting ahead of ourselves. So, who were your parents? Who- what did they do? HF: 01:05 My father was an air traffic controller and rose to be Deputy Chief at LaGuardia tower, as well as working at John F. Kennedy Airport and other airports prior to that, my mother was the first in her family to earn a master's degree from Columbia University, but during most of my life was a housewife and mother. IG: 01:35 So did your father go to college? Was he- HF: 01:39 He did. He was a graduate of City College. IG: 01:41 I see, I see. So-so probably, what were the expectations of you? Were you the only child? Or did you know- HF: 01:52 No, I am the third of three sons. My oldest brother went to what is now City University, first to City College, then to Baruch. My middle brother started at Columbia as an undergraduate and did graduate work at both CUNY and Cal at Berkeley. And I began at Harpur College and went to Columbia for my master's and doctorate. IG: 02:19 In- at Teachers College? HF: 02:24 Yes. IG: 02:25 So, what-what were some of the reasons that you went to Harpur College? HF: 02:36 I was a relatively young high school graduate having skipped a grade in junior high school, and I thought it would be good for my emotional development to get away from home. Harpur seemed to offer a small enough campus environment that I would not be lost but a very high-quality academic reputation, which attracted me. I had looked at other SUNY schools, and it seemed to be the right mix of academic rigor and small college environment. IG: 03:15 And just remind us what was the year that you entered Harpur? HF: 03:23 Started with the incoming class fall, 1967. IG: 03:29 1967 so what were, what was the reputation of Harpur in (19)67? HF: 03:40 Very strong academic quality. The college billed itself as the quote public Swarthmore to incoming students. I cannot remember whether that was part of the admissions campaign literature, but that was certainly what it was known as- IG: 04:00 Really? So just remind us what the reputation of Swarthmore was at the time. I mean, it is a very good school, but that is all I know of it. HF: 04:14 High quality liberal arts, small private college on the main line outside Philadelphia. IG: 04:23 Thank you. So, what were some of the first impressions that you had of, I mean, you are a city kid come to, you know, the boondocks in the middle of nowhere. So, what-what-what were some of the impressions that [inaudible] Harpur had? HF: 04:39 I, uh, it did have the small college feel at the time, there were only two completed residential colleges. Dickinson and Newing. Hinman had just opened two residence halls, and that was it for. For on campus housing, it was very easy to get to know almost everyone in the collegiate setting. I did live on campus, so had very little interaction with the town that came later through (19)68 from probably 1968 to 1970 when there were peace marches that went through Binghamton and Johnson City, and you really got to see the difference between, quote, town and gown at that time, it certainly was a different experience than living in New York City, but I focused very strongly on my coursework in the fall, and so that was my primary goal, maintaining grades and getting used to the academic rigor of college. IG: 05:57 So did you have a sense of what you know you would like to learn here. Did you have a career in mind? Or do you have, did you have a subject that you wanted to pursue or? HF: 06:10 When I entered, I planned to major in history, which, at the time you majored in social sciences, there probably were not enough courses to be strictly a history major, and the goal would have been to be a history teacher in high school. IG: 06:29 So, you said that the differences between town and gown were striking. Did this- did this include the student community? Did you feel that there were differences in world views approaches between the city kids and from upstate New York, the students from upstate New York, the students from upstate New York? HF: 06:58 Certainly, the students from downstate metropolitan area, Long Island Westchester and New York City tended to be more cynical. Many of them had been accepted to Ivy League schools or the quote, private Swarthmore. But 1967 was pre federal financial aid, and so many of them could not afford those schools, and Harpur was their second or their safe school, as it were, so there was a disjointed approach to learning, where many of the downstate students felt they should be, somewhere even more rigorous than Harpur was at the time, and the upstate students and some of us from downstate also felt we were glad to be there, IG: 07:58 But I mean in terms of interacting with these students. Did you make friends from upstate population, or were your friends mostly like yourself, city kids? HF: 08:12 No, when I arrived, I was one of 32 students who came from Van Buren High School. We were a huge contingent. We quickly grew apart over our first and second semesters, and I made friends with people from Rochester, man who became my roommate for two more years, and then people from towns as small as Montour Falls. So, it was a very diverse experience, a good learning experience about people who came from other backgrounds in upstate New York and small towns way out on Long Island, Suffolk County. IG: 08:53 So, what did they make of you? I mean, you collectively from Van Buren, and what did you collectively Van Buren make of them? I mean in generalities, and we know that there are individuals and exceptions, but just impressions. HF: 09:16 I think the Van Buren people because we sat on the city line. We all lived within New York City Limits, but it was a very suburban part of Queens, so we were already bifurcated in terms of our thinking. Kids from Brooklyn did not think we were city people and people from Nassau and Suffolk only thought we were city people. So, it was an interesting- IG: 09:41 That is so true. I remember. HF: 09:43 It was sort of an interesting approach, little schizophrenic for us. IG: 09:50 Yes, and that is so true that I am glad that you reminded me, because that is that really was the thing. Um, so-so could you just describe a little bit of what the campus looked like at the time? HF: 10:13 The overwhelming aspect was mud. There was a tremendous amount of construction going on. So, the Dickinson area, the- what I guess is now the peace quad was pretty much finished, but Hinman was still being built. Science buildings were being built. The fine arts building was being expanded. The museum was being created. So, as I say, it was a lot of mud. [laughs] IG: 10:49 And where were your classes held? HF: 10:53 Freshman Litton camp was actually held in seminar rooms in Chenango Hall. They cleared the first floor, one of the first-floor wings of residence rooms and made them into seminar rooms in an attempt to break down the large lecture class. IG: 11:13 Do you mind if we pause because- Okay, we are back with Dr. Flax. So, you were telling us about the campus and what it looked like when you when you arrived, and your first impressions. How do you feel that it has I mean, it has changed tremendously, but what are some of the notable changes that you are most struck by when you see Binghamton campus now? HF: 11:50 Now, I had not been back on campus for many-many years and was actually here last April to attend a performance at Tri Cities Opera with another alum who maintained a much closer connection to Binghamton, both the city and the campus, than I had over the years. We had time before the performance and drove onto campus, and the most striking thing to me was the loss of Newing College, the fact that I had lived for two years in Chenango Hall and then two years in Delaware Hall. And what is on the footprint of Delaware Hall is a much, much larger building. I think all the names have now been changed to Old O'Connor or Old Johnson, and now what had been Newing College names are all old Dickinson College names seems like a lack of creativity to me, and one of the highlights of my time as a student was the unbelievable creativity on the campus. So, I am a little disappointed in that. IG: 13:09 Tell us about that. Tell us about the unbelievable creativity on campus. HF: 13:17 It was a group of very strong faculty, young faculty in general, who had come from other places but were determined to create an academic community, and as I say, very strong students who were looking for small college liberal arts environment. I think Binghamton, at that point, had a very strong reputation in the humanities, little less so in the social sciences. If you were interested in the sciences, you generally went to Stony Brook. If you were looking at the four university centers, Albany was sort of late to the game and was still considered a teacher's college that was just becoming a university center, and Buffalo was very large and in the process of moving from downtown out to Amherst. So very different experience. But students really took control of their lives, their social activities, a very strong student government, a strong radio station. I became involved in something called the student center board, which ran the student activities on campus, which were largely student run rather than staff run. IG: 14:49 So how did you get involved in the student board and what-what role did you have? HF: 14:54 I had actually started as a dorm rep. To Student Government, and then in (19)68 as things got crazy all over higher ed in this country, thought I had a better niche with the student activities area. What initially got me interested was that the student center board ran busses to all the metropolitan areas at holiday time. So, for Thanksgiving or for Christmas, you did not have to come into Downtown Binghamton to take a Greyhound or a Trailways bus. The busses were brought on campus, and I worked very closely with other students to organize busses that made sense in terms of filling them to capacity and then having them stop in particular areas. So if you lived in Yonkers and I lived in Queens, there might have been enough people from Yonkers and Queens to put together a bus that went to the raceway into Jamaica, or maybe there were enough from Nassau and Queens that went to Jamaica and Roosevelt field, but we ran full busses, and we made considerable amount of money. IG: 16:15 So, it was kind of similar to what your father was doing, but on the ground, right HF: 16:19 [laughs] in a way, I suppose, [laughter] he brought them in, I sent them out. [laughter] IG: 16:32 So, you know, so you were involved in this. So, was it part of your stipend? Was it an internship or work study program, or something that you- HF: 16:45 There were no internships at that time. I did it as a volunteer. You would get a free bus. If you were a bus captain, you got a free ride. That was the incentive. IG: 16:55 I see, I see. HF: 16:56 And you just had to make sure that you loaded the right number of people and the right names on the bus collected their money, or that was done beforehand, actually. So, I started as a bus captain, became Chairman of the Transportation Committee, did a few other jobs, and then chaired the student center board, probably my senior year, IG: 17:16 In your senior year. And you mentioned (19)68 and (19)68 was such a time of ferment at American universities, but all over the world, you know, there were, it was a time of student rebellions and rethinking how and retain rethinking the world. And how did you experience 1968 politically at Harpur College? HF: 17:48 I think it was the beginning of a whole radicalization of the campus. You had, as I said, this sort of cynical, unhappy group on campus to begin with. But fall of 19)67 was very traditional. I remember thinking as I was driving up here today, what was my first you know, week or month like. And I remember something as absurd now when you think back that our resident assistants or dorm leaders or whatever they were called at the time, and we were in men's dorms and women's dorms, so they organized a quote, unquote panty raid where, you know, freshmen men ran around screaming, Silk-silk," and hoping that some woman would throw her bra out. It was really juvenile and but very traditional, sort of early (19)60s campus culture. And then in (19)68 things sort of got blown away. People had friends at Columbia because a lot of us came from New York City. We knew people from our graduating classes who had enrolled there, and of course, that was a major upheaval, where the student strike and the takeover of Low Library really took East Coast students into where the Berkeley Free Speech Movement had been five years before- IG: 19:22 But that is on the Columbia campus. How did it resonate to Harpur? What was going on at Harpur in 1968 how were you informed by those you know, feelings and ideas of students from the East Coast? HF: 19:40 People started questioning authority. There were all sorts of curfew rules. Women had much stricter curfews than male students. If you had a woman in your room, you had to put a book in the door, privacy, all of those things. Things were really washed away in a time of ferment, the Dean of Students was, I guess, removed and became dean of the summer school. He was just thrust out because he was a very traditional figure who could only think in very traditional ways. So, there was a certain amount of upheaval among the administration with students, I think less so with faculty, but more questioning of curricula, student course and teacher evaluation started to come in that was unheard of prior to (19)68 and (19)69 and (19)70. IG: 20:45 But at a place like Harpur College, where you- did you feel that you had more of that, you were more, not on equal footing, but you had certainly more access to the faculty than you would have elsewhere, and somehow that broke the barriers down. And I- HF: 21:07 Some faculty were very receptive to the changes, I think, particularly again, in the humanities, little less so in the social sciences, the hard sciences tended to be the most conservative as they traditionally are. IG: 21:21 So, what kind of things you know, what kind of things were spoken of about the cultural climate, the change in cultural climate. HF: 21:32 Uh, ending-ending curfew Hinman was, quote, unquote, the self-regulated dormitories. So, there were no curfew rules. Students were expected to enforce their own codes of behavior, which set a tone for the other campus, campus units that said, “Well, why not us? "You know, just because they are living in brand new housing and it is only typically open to upper classmen. There are upperclassmen in Dickinson, there are upperclassmen in Newing, so it really threw everything on the table to be discussed in terms of how things were done--student activities. It is not just going to be a traditional dance or a social or a mixer. Certainly, the influence of rock music had a major change the drug culture to a lesser degree. IG: 22:34 And where were you at all of this? Did you welcome these changes? Were you excited about them? HF: 22:42 I think in (19)68 at one point, there was a there used to be something called the Esplanade, which connected Dickinson and the Student Union. It was a little bridge, but that was sort of the focal point for student speakers and people congregated around I remember feeling at one point in either (19)68 or (19)69 when everybody went across and sort of stormed the administration building. They were going to confront the powers that be. It was very frightening to me. I did not quite accept it or understand it. IG: 23:22 You were young. You were very young. HF: 23:26 I was young, but I was also very naive. I was young emotionally as well as you were younger than most freshmen, and it took me a while to sort of embrace that change. IG: 23:40 Yeah, I could see that. I mean, not of you, but I could see actually, even of myself, you know, in such a circumstance. So, what were, you know, what were we have not spoken about your classes at all, and your interaction with your student, fellow students, your faculty, just tell us some highlights from really kind of mind-altering type of classes that you had with If faculty really left a big impression on you. HF: 24:25 Yes, there were some in English, but I think the greatest impact was in the art department and art history. John Connolly taught the survey course, 100 or 101, I cannot remember the number right now, and that I took in my sophomore year as an elective or to fill a humanities requirement. But that really excited me. And then there was a young instructor. Lawrence McGuinness, who was teaching architecture courses, really architectural history, and that really became my love. I was very sorry I either did not change majors or pursue architectural history on the graduate level. I think in some ways, I did very well academically. I really enjoyed the subject--remained a member of the Society of architectural historians to this day. IG: 25:28 What-what- HF: 25:29 It is purely avocational. IG: 25:31 What period especially interested you? What? HF: 25:36 Oh, it has changed over the years. IG: 25:37 It has changed over but here, when you were at Harpur, what did you what did you get excited about? What-what- HF: 25:46 Probably the year 1200 was very exciting, because it was a move from Romanesque to Gothic, and it was an individual style that came out, something like the Bury St Edmunds crosses is a real epitomy of high year, 1200 style art nor and you see it in architecture as well. But since then, I have developed a real fondness for Art Deco and Art Nouveau architecture. How did you view the IG: 26:24 How did you view the architecture? The- did you have slides? Or how did you see that in the classroom? HF: 26:33 All Slides and then papers had to be done outside. So, I think my first architecture paper was on the Philadelphia Museum of Art, Parkway Museum. So, I literally went to Philadelphia and spent a weekend photographing the exterior, the interior and then writing up the paper. IG: 27:01 So-so-so architecture have a great impact. What, how did you how did you spend your free time? You did this student center. You were invested in your studies. How did you spend? How did you relax with your friends. HF: 27:22 Was also very involved in the governance of Newing College, working with the master of the college and with the student leadership there, that was very fulfilling. HF: 27:39 Had tried out probably junior and senior years, and I think certainly in terms of academics, we were interested in the whole ecology movement and actually got a faculty member hired to teach an ecology course through Newing College. IG: 27:40 Which year [inaudible] HF: 27:54 Ecology, of what kind of the environment? HF: 28:05 Environmental ecology, yeah. IG: 28:08 Um, and what got you interested in that? HF: 28:15 I think just conservation, and probably Rachel Carson's books. But there were other people who were interested, and we thought, well, you know, there is funding. Why do not we try to support the faculty line to, you know, put our money where our mouth is. IG: 28:33 And of course, during that time, there really was little notion of the environment, you know, you see, this was the era of polymers, of plastics and disposable culture and disposable things, right? So that is very interesting. What-what were some of the sort of, you know, political and social discussions that you would have with your student, with your fellow students, if- HF: 29:05 Politically it was certainly about the escalation of the Vietnam War. And I guess the fact that Lyndon Johnson did not run for a second term of office, Eugene McCarthy was a very popular candidate on campus, the election of Richard Nixon, which was such a setback for most students. And, you know, starting in (19)68 and really, I would say, almost ending in May of 1970 with the deaths at Kent State. This was an almost unbelievable shock to students at Harpur that the police could come on a campus and shoot you. And this really brought things home. And I said, “To feel like there was a very traditional beginning to my college career,” this spike in radicalism, and then my senior year, almost a return. Clearly a reformulated campus, things had changed, but a numbed campus frightened campus that, if it could happen there, could it happen here. IG: 30:27 That is, that is really that is really interesting, that is really interesting. So it was, it was Kent State. It was not, it was not, you know, lark, it was Kent State. Were there police aggression elsewhere at universities? HF: 30:46 Yes, Jackson, state in Mississippi, which was actually a sister school to Harpur, and I cannot remember what the relationship was, there was a man named Jack Sperling who had something to do with the two campuses, but there were deaths at Jackson State as well as Kent State. But I think again, Kent State, the deaths were white students. It was the National Guard being brought on campus, very similar to what happened at Columbia, when the New York City Police were called on campus and students were dragged out of Low Library. IG: 31:28 So, but it is also interesting that you said that there was sort of, you know, this spike to radicalism, and then coming down, maybe, you know, understanding. But yet there was a spike. So, it was mind changing, you know, it changed you in some way. HF: 31:44 Oh, absolutely. IG: 31:44 Yeah, absolutely, so-so, you know, after-after Harpur College, what happened to you? HF: 31:53 I thought I would go into architectural history, and I actually thought I would enroll in the program at Columbia. And one bit of bad advice I got was, and I do not know why, but that I was too good for the Columbia program, and the only place I should go was Harvard, and I was ready to go back to New York City at that point. And I did not get very good career counseling or advising, certainly not good academic advising. And I ended up just making the decision with-with one person on staff who said, "Well, you know, what do you do apart from history?" Because there are no jobs in history. So, I thought, well, I am very involved in Student Activities and student life on campus. There are clearly staff people here who do that. How do they get into it? So, I ended up enrolling in master's program at Columbia in Student Affairs Administration, and that got me back to New York City, where I wanted to be for personal reasons, and sort of kept me in a university environment, which I want. IG: 33:10 Right-right-right. So, what you arrived at Columbia in? HF: 33:17 Fall of (19)72. IG: 33:19 In fall of (19)72, in fall of (19)72. So-so you had, you know, you had, and so just give us a- you know- HF: 33:32 No, I am sorry, fall of (19)71. I graduated in (19)71 I finished my master's in spring of (19)72. IG: 33:39 So just give me a sense a career trajectory. So, you finished this master's from Teachers College and-and then what-what did you do? HF: 33:51 I ended up getting a job at Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, which is another unit of SUNY. IG: 33:57 Right. Yes, I know. HF: 33:58 And started as night manager in the student center, and then was promoted to Assistant Director for activities, and I also worked as head resident in one of the residence halls there, and then felt there was no upward mobility in that job, so moved on to associate director of the Student Union at the college at New Paltz, so another SUNY school, but that was very tough to be a young single person in a very small town. I remember going out one night because Main Street in New Paltz, at least at that time, was just loaded with college bars, and I thought, I do not want to sit in this apartment. I cannot ride another 30 miles on my bicycle tonight. I need a drink. And the next morning, I kept having student after student come into the Union and say, "Oh, we heard you were at McGuinness last night." So, I realized that was just not going to work for me. IG: 34:59 So, I imagine that you left. HF: 35:02 I left, and I became Director of Student Services at a college in New Jersey [crosstalk] at that time, it was called Jersey City State College. It is now New Jersey City University in Jersey City. So, it gave me the opportunity to live in Manhattan and commute right out, which was nice having a reverse commute and a much larger job than the one I had in New Paltz with significant budgetary and personnel responsibilities, which I wanted. IG: 35:34 So, you worked there for? HF: 35:37 I was in Jersey City for 11 years, and then I got a phone call from one of my former students who was working for a marketing firm in Manhattan, and she said, "We have an opening for a vice president at my company. Would you be interested in applying?" And I said, you know, I guess I laughed, and said, "I have absolutely no qualifications for that. I have never worked in business." And she said, "It is, it is just the same as what you do at the college. You just use different terms. It is customer service, not student service. You work with budgets; you work with personnel. This job would be Vice President for Administration of the company; you could certainly do all of those things." IG: 36:25 Wow. HF: 36:25 And I threw my hat in the ring and subsequently got the job. IG: 36:30 So what year was this? HF: 36:33 This was 1988. IG: 36:35 1988 and you were living where in? HF: 36:40 At that time, I was living in Greenwich Village, so it was very nice. It allowed me to sell my car immediately and not deal with alternate side of the street parking. I could walk to work on a good day, but on a very short subway ride, and I could finally get decent meals at lunch instead of a college cafeteria. IG: 37:03 Also, you know, it is always very interesting to me when an academic makes a change over to industry to working for private industry. So, what was that shift like, what skills did you bring? I mean, obviously you know your administrative skills and what were some of the differences that you found? HF: 37:31 I think the reason I was hired was to do staff training and provide a much better and deeper level of customer service for the firm's clients. What happened was I got caught up in account work and did less and less training and more and more major account supervision. The first year, it was all fascinating to me, because it was all new. And then I realized by my second year that the only real criterion for success was, what was your bottom line this quarter? How will you exceed it the next quarter? And by the third year, I realized, if that was all there was, I was going to go crazy. And I-I thought about my life and who I was, and I thought what I liked about working in academia was a group that thought about other things beside the bottom line and allowed you to explore and self-explore and really go in different avenues and directions, even though you were doing basically administrative work. And so, after three years, I left and went to- IG: 38:49 That is an excellent way, you know, the thoughts are so resonant and so interesting. I am sorry- [laughter] HF: 39:00 But then I did return to higher education as director of Counseling and Student Services at New York University, which was the best of all at the time, because it was a walk to work. IG: 39:12 So, you measure the, you know, the value of an employer by how- HF: 39:20 Proximity to my home. IG: 39:21 Yeah, exactly. I understand. So, what were the years that you were in at NYU? HF: 39:30 1991 through 1997. IG: 39:33 Right. Could you also go to doctorate somewhere along the way? HF: 39:37 I had started my doctoral work when I was in Jersey City and then stopped out when I went to work in business, because it made no sense. But when I went back to NYU, I picked up the doctoral work again at Columbia. I had thought of transferring to NYU, but they had really arcane academic regulations. And although I worked very closely with the Academic Dean in the School of Education, his-his advice was, "We are not going to change our rules. You would do better to get your degree from Columbia. Take as many free courses here as they will let you with tuition remission." IG: 40:21 Right. Well, at least, at least they were truthful, right? HF: 40:23 He was, he was a wonderful advisor. And my biggest problems were with the registrar at Teachers College, but we worked through them, and I earned my degree subsequently. IG: 40:36 And so, what did you specialize in? What did you what was your focus? The focus of your dissertation. What was it on? HF: 40:44 I was looking at community college transfer counselors and their role in moving students from community colleges into four-year institutions. IG: 40:55 That is very relevant to us. HF: 40:59 So, I had again, talked to this academic dean at NYU, and he said, you know, everybody looks at college presidents, everybody looks at students. Nobody ever looks at the people who do the work in the middle. And he said, I think if you worked on a subject like this, you would be working with four-year schools, you would be working with two-year schools, you would be working with staff members. I think it would be a very rich study. And so, it was actually partially quantitative, but largely qualitative. And I think it was a very rich study, and a lot came out in terms of the differences between transfer advising and transfer counseling. And the success that these individuals had moving students who in many cases had very low self-esteem into schools like NYU that they never thought they could ever approach much less enroll in. IG: 42:00 Right-right. So, what is the, what is the role of the advisor who is helping such a student? HF: 42:09 I think they looked at their jobs as the information dissemination piece, was the transfer, advising the mechanics, how to do it, what courses to take that would transfer based on their major requirements, their academic interests, the counseling piece was for them, the more exciting piece of getting students with generally low self-esteem or very limited vision of their opportunities in the world. To say, “Yes, I can do this, even though my family has told me a woman should only be a secretary and that a college education is a waste," I was able to tell this woman, "No, you are so bright and you are so motivated, you can, you can do more than be someone's assistant." IG: 43:11 So-so where did you have an opportunity that is really wonderful. So, where did you have an opportunity to implement- HF: 43:19 The stuff? IG: 43:20 The study. HF: 43:24 NYU has a large program called the Community College Transfer Opportunity Program, and that I used their feeder schools for my qualitative interviews, as well as some other campuses, but it was very interesting to see, and I think that model has been adopted around the nation now. IG: 43:49 Oh, fantastic. S HF: 43:52 o it has been, it was very-very productive and very rewarding. I subsequently could not move up at NYU with the doctorate, and I did want a deanship. So interestingly enough, I ended up going back to downstate in 1998 as Associate Dean of Student Affairs. IG: 44:12 Interesting. HF: 44:14 So handled admissions, financial aid, the registrar international student advising, and disabled student advising. IG: 44:23 Fantastic. That is, that is fantastic. And I know that downstate produces, somebody told me the most number of medical graduates in the country. Is that true? HF: 44:36 Not sure, in the country, certainly in New York state. HF: 44:37 New York State, certainly, New York State. HF: 44:40 Absolutely New York State. It is the largest graduating class. IG: 44:44 And so and so. how long were you there? HF: 44:47 I stayed from (19)98 to 2004. And then I became associate dean for Enrollment Management and Student Development at LaGuardia Community College, which is part of CUNY. IG: 45:02 Which such an innovative community college, it is really kind of the flagship of all community colleges. So, what role did you have to make it that way? HF: 45:13 The major thing I did was the college had made a decision that, instead of having siloed admissions, financial aid, registrar and advising offices, they would create an Enrollment Services Center. So, I came on board at the beginning of the construction. I had no input in the original design, but my role was, really, how do you meld four very disparate offices that have been treated very disparately, quite frankly, by the administration, into one harmonious team. And we did some very innovative personnel changes and programs to make it happen, and opened a beautiful, 25,000 square foot facility with a combination of generalists and specialists to serve students. We put in an electronic database so that students did not have to randomly be called by mistake or stand in line, they were able to sit in a very comfortable lounge setting similar to what we were sitting in right now, and then have their names called over a loud speaker when it was their turn, so they could be doing other things while waiting. But we tried with the electronic database, we were able to assess what we were doing and how we were doing it. So initially we realized we were doing some very basic financial aid work for students that if we built a computer lab and had people serving as, I guess, mentors, they could sit at a computer and learn to do it themselves, filling out FAFSAs, updating forms. And so, we took a lot of that traffic out of the Enrollment Services Center by building an adjacent computer lab, and at check in finding out, okay, you need to see the registrar. This is a complex issue. You need a specialist. You need to drop and add a course. You can do that with a generalist. You have a financial aid inquiry that can go to the computer lab. Someone will teach you how to do that. And so, it helped empower students to take care of their own enrollment services business and it-it provided better service and avoided staff burnout from having to answer the same repetitive questions, [crosstalk] literally-literally. IG: 47:51 I am sure. And since so much of the population at LaGuardia are immigrants, and you know, first generation, they need that extra hand holding when approaching bureaucracy of any kind. I think it is- HF: 48:08 Absolutely. IG: 48:09 -fear inspiring so. HF: 48:13 And then finally, I, I did some work at Hunter on a biotechnology project. IG: 48:19 Wow. HF: 48:19 And then returned to SUNY, downstate in my final act as the coordinator for the residency program in the Department of Pathology. And that got me back on the University Faculty Senate, which brings me to Binghamton today. I am no longer a senator, since I retired at the end of 2016 but this past June, I was selected to be the next parliamentarian for the body starting in June of 2019. IG: 48:55 At downstate, or here? HF: 48:57 At SUNY wide. SUNY wide. IG: 48:59 SUNY, tremendous. So, tell us about this new role. So very big role. HF: 49:05 The parliamentarian advises the President of the University Faculty Senate. And you may know the most recent immediate past president, Pete Neffer, who was a geology faculty member at Binghamton, he served two terms as president of faculty senate statewide and parliamentarian guides the president, not only in terms of the rules and regulations of the meetings, in terms of the bylaws and Robert's Rules of Order, but as sort of a senior advisor to the body the parliamentarian particularly helps with the Governance Committee and with the campuses any questions that come up about bylaws or procedures or confidential issues that they do not want to share on their own campuses, the parliamentarian serves in that role as well. IG: 50:02 So, you are it is almost as though you are an attorney, you know, but you are advising them about a different set of laws. HF: 50:09 Right. So, if someone asked me about Binghamton's bylaws, I would not be familiar with them. First thing I would have to do is send me a copy of your bylaws or point me to your website. So that I can see what the situation is. Downstate Medical Center, I helped rewrite the bylaws, so I am far more familiar with my own former campus’s bylaws. IG: 50:33 So, what kind of issues do you resolve? What kind of issues come to your desk? HF: 50:39 Right now, well, I am I am in my quote, unquote training year or parliamentarian elect, there still is a parliamentarian and she has done this job for seven years and is ready to step down. So right now I am shadowing her, but she has had some issues on campuses where people have come to her for consultation about differences between administrative leadership and faculty governance leadership, and how would she suggest they be solved so she has had a hand in that, as well as when it has to escalate to a formal consultation or visitation procedure. Certainly, we both. I have been sitting on the Governance Committee for several years. Last year, we started trying to do what we thought was a minor update to the bylaws, and as we looked at them, we realized does not work anymore the way it is constructed, and so it has become a wholesale reorganization and rethinking of the bylaws. I think the role of the faculty senate president has grown tremendously since he or she became a member of the Board of Trustees. And so, they do as much probably, as a trustee as they do as faculty senate president, which meant, okay, we need to expand the role of the vice president. That cannot just be something somebody does out of their pocket. That is a real position that has to do a lot of coverage for the President. So, what is the appropriate role the committee tangled with, okay, should the President be seen as a college president or university president, sort of being the outside face of the organization, and the Vice President taking on a provost role, sort of running the committees and the sectors. So, I think we have come up with a good first draft. It is actually going to be unveiled to the Senate Friday morning, so we will see how well it is received. But I think it is going to go through several iterations before the existing bylaws become some-some new set of bylaws. IG: 53:05 So, your meeting- what is the what is the group consist of you and- HF: 53:11 University Faculty Senate or the Governance Committee. The university faculty senate is represent-represent faculty and staff representation from all 29 state operated campuses and system administration. So, there are a portion of the representation is apportioned by number of faculty and staff on campuses. So down state has four senators because it has a very large professional staff, based on the hospital. Morrisville might have one senator, much smaller campus. Binghamton, I think, also has four as a university center, large faculty and professional staff, and they really deal with issues of governance system wide, but the Senate is broken into what are known as sectors. So, the four University Centers comprise a sector, the five academic medical centers comprise a sector, and they meet during the plenaries to discuss issues that are really specific to those sectors. So, in 2011 when down state was encouraged by then Governor Patterson to purchase Long Island College Hospital. It not only brought down state to fiscal ruin but really endangered the entire system. It was a ridiculous decision, but, you know, people were not going to argue with the governor. That became a major focus of not only the academic health science sector, but issues for faculty senate at large, and because we had our President sitting as a trustee, there was a lot of interaction between the Senate, the sector, and the Board of Trustees. We were meeting with the Chair of the trustee’s academic health science sector as the academic medical sector, because we were afraid; they were not getting a full picture of what this meant to a campus. So, there was a lot of it was a good communications vehicle. IG: 55:40 I see. HF: 55:40 Things do not always percolate up through the Chancellery as they should, and it is very good to have faculty and professional staff who are on the ground, invested in their campuses, who are willing to do this volunteer service. IG: 55:57 So, let us connect it back to Harpur and you know the, what is the do you- I mean, did you come from a liberal minded household? Because did you come from, you know, a household that that kind of prepared you for this type of thinking and outlook. I mean, because you are so sort of, you know, progressive and yet, and yet, you know, you have so much knowledge and struck knowledge of regulations and how the system works. And I mean, where-where did the-the first sort of seedlings for-for this type of mindset come from? HF: 56:52 Well, I think, you know, my parents were very bright and thoughtful people. My father tended to be more conservative than my mother, but I think probably the exposure through my temple youth group in high school started me on some sort of leadership roles, certainly at Harpur being involved in Newing college governance and Student Government, campus wide and student center board, sort of becoming the boy bureaucrat- IG: 57:27 Yeah-yeah. HF: 57:29 -that I became, [crosstalk] I think was very- IG: 57:32 bureaucrat for very kind of, you know, forward looking causes. I mean, you know. HF: 57:40 Yeah, I am not sure where the progressive piece comes from. I think my grandmother, I know, is a suffragette, so maybe, maybe that and a couple of my aunts tended to be more probably progressive, than my own immediate family. So maybe they were role models. IG: 57:59 Right. And probably living in New York and being in a student environment. Did you read the piece about the in the New York Times just a day ago--it was written by- I forget his name, a conservative professor, and he lamented how university administrators are far more left leaning than even faculty. HF: 58:27 Now I missed that piece. I am still very involved in a lot of volunteer causes. So last week, I am a UUP delegate. So, I was at the UUP delegate assembly in Buffalo, and of course, this week, I am at the plenary. So, I stopped preparing for UUP and started preparing for these meetings. And in the middle, I am I serve as secretary of my co-op board. So, I had a meeting last night, so I think it was prep work to be done, and follow up will be done on that, so. IG: 59:02 Do you, may I ask about your family life? Did you have a family? Did you- HF: 59:09 I have a partner. We have been together for 22 years, living together for 20 years. IG: 59:17 That is nice. That is very nice. Um, that is- HF: 59:23 He actually got me involved in UUP. IG: 59:25 Really? [inaudible] HF: 59:27 I was management confidential as an Associate Dean, so I could not be at the time, but when I came back into pathology, I was able to join the union at that point. IG: 59:41 You know, I do not know how you know comfortable, or how you know this is maybe not and this is outside of the scope of this interview, but I would be very interested in in the gay community at Harpur College. You know, during the time I am going to meet with somebody tomorrow who is going to talk about that. HF: 1:00:08 Well, let us say, in my freshman year, there was no gay community. IG: 1:00:13 Yeah. HF: 1:00:15 It just did not exist. Although, interestingly, I guess, when I was running for student government, I remember speaking to some people in the basement of my dorm, and they we should pause for a second. IG: 1:00:43 Okay, so we are back with Dr. Flax. HF: 1:00:48 Just recalling campaigning for student government meeting Bill Jones and Arni Zane, who would later become very well-known modern dance dancers and subsequently choreographers. So that was probably my first exposure to anyone who was actually out in a very limited way in college. And then we had several committees on the student center board, and there was a young man with a lot of enthusiasm, Martin Levine, who became our dance committee chair and did a phenomenal job changing the whole culture of what dance was at Harpur and-and bringing it into the-the 1960s from where it had been in the 1950s he subsequently became a major gay activist in New York City, and unfortunately died during the AIDS crisis in the late (19)80s. I think the first gay student organization probably was established in my senior year, but I was not part of that at all. IG: 1:02:09 Right, yeah, when you, when you think, I mean, it is we, really, I mean, everyone, everyone, I think, every thinking individual has gone through worlds of change, anyone who has lived a life. HF: 1:02:32 I looked at the generation before me that lived through the Depression and World War Two, and this was certainly not as life altering as those two experiences, but I think the campus upheaval in the (19)60s and the Vietnam War were a microcosm of change for our generation. IG: 1:02:56 I absolutely agree. I think maybe less violent with less bloodshed. But, you know, a huge, a huge change in outlook and thinking. I think we are running out of time unfortunately, because I have- HF: 1:03:19 {crosstalk] a four o'clock bus. IG: 1:03:20 No, no, I have a four o'clock pickup. [inaudible] But-but are there any concluding thoughts that you have about, you know, the value of your Harpur College, the impact that it has had on your life? You know things like that any-any- HF: 1:03:41 I think it was a wonderful education for me as much or probably more outside the classroom than in the classroom in terms of my psychosocial development. I think it set a career path for me that when I left higher ed, went to the business world and then had to reevaluate. It convinced me that I probably made the right choice going into higher education. I might have done some things differently. Perhaps I would have started as a faculty member in architectural history and then probably, I think, moved into administration one way or another. But I certainly do not have any regrets about attending Harpur when I did, with whom I did, I made some-some very good friends along the way. In fact, when I was hired at downstate for the associate dean position. The woman who was the vice president at the time is someone who I had admired very much when I worked on the student center board. She was a few years ahead of me, and it did not register with her until the end of our interview, when she asked, am I the Henry flax. attended Harpur College. Said, "Yes, I am" and I realized she had made a far greater impact on my life than I had made on hers, but we did work together very successfully for seven years. IG: 1:05:14 That is very nice. Well, thank you very much. HF: 1:05:22 Thank you for the opportunity to do this. IG: 1:05:24 It is a pleasure. It has really been a pleasure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Henry S. Flax Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Flax, Henry S. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Henry has held many roles in higher education, generation of new business, client service, quality control and cost management. These include positions as Associate Dean of Enrollment Management and Student Development at LaGuardia Community College; Associate Dean of Student Affairs at NYU; as well as positions at SUNY Downstate Medical Center and Hunter College, CUNY. His EdD is from Teachers College at Columbia Universtiy. He has served as sector head for the SUNY University Faculty Senate for the Health Science Centers. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Henry Flax.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-10-17 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 65:27 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Levine, Herbert Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1978-09-15 Subject LCSH Levine, Herbert -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Endicott (N.Y.); Russians -- United States; Jews; Syracuse University; Korean War, 1950-1953; Jewelry trade; Jewelry stores Ruby and Sons; Van Cotts Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:42 Minutes ; 14:36 Minutes ; 21:13 Minutes Collection Broome County Oral History Project Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56078">Interview with Herbert Levine</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p> <p><span>Interview with: Herbert Levine</span></p> <p><span>Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo</span></p> <p><span>Date of interview: 15 September 1978</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /><br />Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Herbert Levine of Hazard Hill Rd., Binghamton, [New York] on September 15, 1978.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: Is the microphone in here?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Herb, will you tell us about your life and experiences in the community?&nbsp; </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: Yeah, well, let me just use this as a guide. Okay? [clears throat] Um, first, I think we ought to talk about my father's background in, uh…in Europe. My father was born in Kharkov in Russia, actually the Ukraine. And, um…as a youngster, the family later moved to Kiev - where he grew up. My father went to school until age 12 or 13. He went to a Russian school during the day, and at 3:00 in the afternoon went to a Hebrew school where he learned to read Hebrew and to, uh, learn about the, you know, prayers of the Jewish religion. After, um….after leaving school, at about 13 years of age, he&nbsp; went to work as an, uh, an apprentice to a German jeweler who lived in Russia - and just as we used to read about in the days of Charles Dickens, he lived in this man's place and slept on the floor and ate the food that was left over and that's, that’s what he did. And, ah, it's hard for us today to visualize just how they treated, eh, someone who was an apprentice. But he, he told of how one time he looked over the man's shoulder as he was working on a watch and fixing a watch - and the guy just knocked him for a loop and said, "Lookit: When I'm ready to have you know what I'm doing - I'll show you. Until then, you just sweep the floor and do what you're supposed to do." So, so that's what it was. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Um, [clears throat] part of the interesting background that my father's family was that his mother died when he was eight years old, leaving four children. Uh, for a father to bring up four young children in, in Europe at that time was almost impossible, so he married a woman who was a widow. And she had four children. So together, there was, eh, four of our kids, and four, uh…four of my kids, four of your kids [laughs], and then they had three children. So there was a family of 11…uh, let me see…10 of whom came here. 10 children and a mother and father left Russia in 1905 to, uh, come to America. Uh, the reason they left Russia at that time was that, uh, unrest was already beginning. The workers were beginning to march in protest against&nbsp; the Czar - the seeds of the rebellion, the revolution was starting. There was a&nbsp; tremendous pressure against the Jewish community. My father tells of meeting out in the woods where they had protest meetings, complaining about the Czar, and what they're doing, and how the Cossacks used to come riding on horses with whips and swinging, uh, whips around their heads and chasing the people through the woods after them, so they used to, used to get out. So the young, Jewish people, at that time, were conscripted into the army - were just drafted into&nbsp; the army - were put into the army for 20 - 25 years. His grandfather, he&nbsp; recalled, who lived with them as a boy, 10 - 12 years old was conscripted&nbsp; into the Russian army and served in the Russian army for 25 years. During&nbsp; this period of time, on numerous occasions, uh, somebody, I don't know who - whether they be soldiers, whatever - were interested in converting him to Christianity. And to make him bow down to the cross. Well, one of the facets, tenets of the Jewish religion, is that our interpretation of the Ten Commandments is that you don't bow down to anything, and it means don't bow down. So it means Jewish people don't bow. And he - my father's grandfather - used&nbsp; to show us the whip marks - scars on his back where he was whipped - to try to make him bow down and he just wouldn't do it. Never did. And so, that, that certainly re-enforced their, ah, feelings of religion because if their grandfather suffered through that, there’s something that you weren't going to give up in a hurry.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">But, he left Russia at the age 15 - together with, uh, with all his family. And they left, came, you know, steerage - they took every, almost all the money they had, um, to pay for their way to come to America. And, um, and to America, they came. They landed in Ellis Island, as did most of the immigrants at that time: 1905. And there was a slight problem with my father's health. They checked his lungs and they weren’t too happy about it; they were almost to send them back&nbsp; because they were concerned about TB - tuberculosis. But, they finally let&nbsp; him through. When they came to America, they were greeted by some sort of a cousin, distant cousin or something who was going to set him up in business. And they gave him whatever money they had left and he just ran off with it. So that took care of all the money they had. Like many immigrants at that time, they settled in the lower East Side of New York City. All these people - 10 children and a father and mother - in a little, tiny apartment. And everybody went out to get a job. My father, having worked in a jewelry business, went to work at age 15 in a factory, in a jewelry factory that made watch cases - pocket watch cases. And he was a polisher, just as you see a guy working on shoes in E.J. polishing all day long? That's what he did; he worked on a polishing machine. We have to realize, at this time, that he came here speaking only Russian, Ukrainian and German - those were the only languages he knew at 15 when he came here. So, uh, he went to night school in New York City to learn English to be able to get along as best he could. Incidentally, they never spoke Jewish or Yiddish because the Russian Jews who came to America thought it was </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">nekaltoorne</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> - it was not cultured to speak a low language like Yiddish. So in their homes, they spoke Russian. And they continued to. So at age 15, he, he worked in this factory. And, uh, did for a couple, three years until he started having trouble with his lungs. It was working in the sweatshop with no ventilation and so for forth - it wasn't good for his health. So his father suggested to him he oughta work</span> <span style="font-weight: 400;">outside where it's, uh, health, er, healthy and vigorous. So my dad went to a school that was organized at that time by a Baron de Hirsch - was a wealthy Jewish philanthropist - set up a school to teach agriculture in New Jersey. And went to this agriculture school for two years, studying agriculture and&nbsp; horticulture. He said he didn't do too well in the theoretical parts of it because he did have trouble in the reading and writing, but when it came to the practical year - working with trees, vegetables, and so forth - he was top of his class.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">After taking this training, he was placed on a farm up near Rochester. And he worked on this farm, but he really found out that the farm life wasn't for him. He could remember that the farmer paid him very little and, and he really didn’t get much to eat. And he tells me how they used to go into the chicken coop and take a little pin prick and pick, prick a couple holes in the eggs, and-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: [chuckles]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: [chuckling] suck out the eggs, and put it back, in the egg, in the egg shell, back in the chicken's nest. Whatever.&nbsp; But that, that didn't work out too well; he really didn't enjoy being a farmer. And so he went to Syracuse at this time. And his older brother - my uncle - married a woman in Syracuse whose family was in the jewelry business. And they were in the jewelry business such that they did business house to house - face to face with people. Not just in Syracuse, but around the upstate New York area. So my father was given a route and he went out with a suitcase full of jewelry. And he went one day to Rome, to Ilion, to Herkimer - in that general neck of the woods. And he developed a route, just like the Jewel Tea man did. Went to people's homes, and met them, and spoke with them. Now, one of the advantages that he had was his ability with languages because he came to America speaking Russian and Ukrainian very easily. He was able to pick up other Slovak languages enough to get along - Polish and Slovak. Uh, he spoke German because he had a background in German, and it wasn't too long before he was able to pick up Italian. And he was able to get along and, and…and if he didn't know what a word was, he would just show a thing to a person - an earring, necklace, whatever - he had to learn these words, you know. And the people told him what it was, you know. </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Koletso </span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">[sic]. He knew what it was, but in, in Italian they told him what a ring was, what an earring was. So he was able to sell the thing. In those days credit was very important because, uh, these were just working people, really. And, uh…so, they would buy something and pay for it a little bit each week - you would come back&nbsp; to see them [cough], you were invited in the home - if a christening, a wedding or&nbsp; birthday or gift was coming up or something, they would say to him, "Ruby, why don't&nbsp; you bring something next week because I have a special gift coming up?"&nbsp; My father's name was </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Rubin</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> Levine - uh, Ruven (R-U-V-E-N), I guess is how it, how it was in Russian. And we have his birth certificate, and it’s interesting to see the name Levine spelled in Russian - because Levine in Russian is spelled with five letters (L-A-V-E-N). “E” is a hard sound; an “e”, a Russian “e,” is a hard sound, “e.” There was a </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">meakhnozak</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> [sic] at the end, you know?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Yes.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: But anyway, there was a hard “e” sound. And so today, when you see people's names - “Levine,” sometimes it appears as “Levin” (L-E-V-I-N) because they just took one letter from each letter in the Russian alphabet and called it “Levine.” And it came out in English, “Levin.” To make it sound like “Levine,” in our case, they put a [sic] “e” on the end. So it would, instead of…it really sounds like “Leh-vine...”</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: If you pronounce it exactly. Some people spell it&nbsp; L-E-V-E-N-E, with an “e” on the end.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Oh, nice.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: Maybe keeping it “Levine.” But I, I've asked him if it ever was Levinsky or anything like it, but it&nbsp; wasn't Levinsky. It was really Levine, which is an old, old Hebrew word; it comes from the Levites. The Levites, if you read the first testament, they were priests and Levites who took care of the Temple in the early days. And that's where the names Levi; Livi; Levin; Levine comes from - sort of a historic thing.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">But, [clears throat] where were we? He, he was working in Syracu-out of Syracuse, traveling to Ilion, Rome, so forth, when World War I came along. And, uh, having never served in the Army - boom! - first thing you know - away he went. Uh, let's just see what it was [clears throat] - in 1917, I think, 1917 or 1918 is when he went. So he went into the army at 27 - 28 years of age - no youngster. And, uh, went through training, was assigned to a machine gun battalion, was sent to France. In France, uh, he learned French because he had this ability to pick up languages. Uh, spent some time in France. He was wounded; received the Purple Heart. Spent some time in the hospital in France. And, uh, came back finally. And, ‘bout a year and half later, in 1919. Uh, from the army, a veteran. Decided, well, maybe he would go back to Syracuse where he left off and go into business - in the jewelry business. Uh, lo and behold, he found that, number one: He was replaced. [chuckles] There was a man who was traveling the same route that he was and he told everybody he was Ruby's brother. “Ruby’s in the army - I'll ta-I’ll take care, I’m his brother.” So he stole all of his customers; this guy took all his customers. Secondly, his actual brother, who was&nbsp; the son-in-law in this business, wasn't that happy with him coming back to settle permanently in Syracuse.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">So my father heard of the Triple Cities - he heard of this place, you know, eight-80 miles away from Syracuse that was filled with shoe workers, and new immigrants, and workers, and there was, uh, a busy, thriving, growing community. So in the spring of 1919, 1919…he came to Binghamton. And he, uh, had a house - had a room, lived in a rooming house. I guess on Carroll St./Susquehanna St., someplace. And he opened up an office in the Press Building. At that time, there were many jewelers operating out of the Press Building - some with little shops, there manufacturing jewelers, watch makers - and he decided he would start from scratch. And, and as he did before out of the Syracuse area, he went house to house, people's homes- introduced himself; came in; sat down; told them he was a jeweler; he would be happy to sell them things; had nice things - and through his personality and his ability to get along, speaking all of these seven or eight languages…it was easy for him to make contact with, with, uh, immigrants. And, and by treating people fairly and honestly, little by little, his reputation&nbsp; grew as an honest man. And, uh, and his business became established. He met my mother in&nbsp; the early 20's…and, uh, [clears throat] let's see…1922, [cough] moved to Endicott. He decided Endicott didn't have anywhere as many jewelers as Binghamton did and perhaps, it&nbsp; would be better to be in a smaller community and be more important than being&nbsp; in Binghamton with a lot of jewelers. So, he came to Binghamton - opened a business and still continued to go visiting his customers door to door. However, i-it was difficult- tough on his stomach because in those days everybody made their own wine. And [coughs] when you were invited into someone's house, you had to accept their hospitality, and accepting their hospitality meant drinking whatever they had to offer was. After doing that eight - 10 - 15 times, you came home upset to your stomach and pretty sick. And my mother said, "Hey, you better cut this out. If you’re gonna be in business, these people better come see you. If they're not interested enough in comin’ to see you, then [chuckles] that's just too bad."</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: [chuckles]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: So, so he stopped going out house to house. Maybe did on Sundays, but he, uh, but he did…uh, organize his own business and had a business where people came to him. One of his first drivers was a, a young man who liked to drive a car. His name was Sammy Moriello. Now, I don't know if you remember the name. But, he was a very notable youngster in Endicott's history. He was a, a [sic] Air Force ace. He was a pilot and, and an ace - I don’t know how many planes you had to shoot down. I think he was later killed flying.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: But, he was, ah, he used to drive my father from house to house and door to door so that he was able to, uh, have more freedom to take care of his business and his customers. During this period of time, you know, in the early 20s - Endicott was&nbsp; sort of rough and tumble. There were all kinds of things going on, and it probably wasn’t the most, uh, civil, organized, uh, community way of life. If there was a police chief with one or two policemen, that was probably a lot. And there was a lot of robbery and, and such things going on. [coughs] He told a story, one day, of going to someone's home, he knocked on the door, and the man lets him in - some place on the north side of Endicott - and the man…my father has a little suitcase full of jewelry. The man pulls out a gun and points it to my father, and he says, "You know, Ruby?” He says, “I could let you have it right now.” He said, “But, I'm not going to because they told me that you’re a [sic] okay guy and to leave you alone." And so, that's just what they did. They, uh, they did leave him alone and never bothered him.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Throughout the many years that I worked with my dad in 1953 - 1965, uh, I used to ask him about those times and what went on. And of course, he could understand everything everybody spoke: He could understand Italian; Russian; Polish; Slovak. Many people were speaking Italian…but he never repeated stories. I used to ask him&nbsp; about Barbara and what-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: -went on in those days, but he never used to talk about it. He said, "Some things you listen and ya, and you don't repeat.” And he said, “That’s how you [laughs] get along in this world."</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: [laughs]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: And, and so, that's, that’s what he did. Um, just briefly on my mother's background - she was born in Syracuse. Her family came to America. Perhaps, uh, 20 years before my father's family did, coming from Austria-Hungary. And this family, also, again, 10 children. Her mother and father came and settled in Syracuse, New York…and, uh, were brought up there. These children had much more of an education. My mother went to high school; graduated from high school; worked as a secretary in the Syracuse area before coming to Binghamton. So, uh, culturally, uh, they were on a different plateau. Uh, they spoke Yiddish in their home. Especially when my grandfather died at an early age. But, the grandmother spoke to her Jewish and Yiddish quite often. Um, so my mother certainly had no ability to speak foreign languages other than, uh, a little bit of Jewish and, uh, and English. In our home growing up, the youngsters once in a while, the only time they ever resorted to a foreign language is when they didn't the children to understand.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: [chuckles]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: As happens in, in so many families. From the beginning, I think my father's whole concept of business was to present a feeling of interest in his customers. That he was concerned about them - that he gonna treat them right and be honest. And, and, uh…to his very last year, as I can recall in Endicott talking to people as we stood there, standing beside him - and, and he told customers in whatever language that he was speaking that he wasn't going to leave his children a million dollars, but he was going to leave them an honest name. And, and this was really his, uh, his whole concept. And I think, you know, a very valid one for, uh, for running a business today. Uh, my dad was very much involved in the community. Uh, during the war years, I recall…well, let's go back. He, he became a Mason and was involved in Masonry, which was a, a very big thing. Interestingly enough, although Masonry was a very strong Protestant movement, Masonry did allow Jewish people to belong to it.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: Catholic people didn't, but Jewish people did. And, uh, and so, at Round Hill Lodge in Endicott, my father became very much involved - was in Consistory, a member of the shrine, and took much pride in, in participating.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">I can recall that, ah, my father always was interested in going to adult education courses in UE High School, way, way back. Uh, courses were given on current events, and world politics, and national politics. And, and, uh, rarely did he miss attending one of those types of courses. Like many people who, uh, came up from nothing, my&nbsp; father knew very little about hobbies. He didn't play cards, play golf, gamble - he, he really just, uh, worked. Had a little garden - took care of his garden. And, uh, between the energies that he consumed - bringing up his family; being a father; and working; and taking care of his house...that, that took care of everything. Uh, in those days, of course, a six day week existed in a retail business. There was no such thing as a vacation. We never went on a vacation for a week or two because to go on a vacation would’ve meant to close the business and that, that just was never done. So I have to admire greatly those people who came before us, such as my father and,and his many friends and customers. Because, you know, these people were of two worlds and of two cultures. They lived in, in America, in Endicott. And they were able to keep up with the problems of&nbsp; the community, and the state, and the nation, and so forth. But at the same time, they never lost touch with what happened in the Old World. And they were able to talk with someone about Europe, and what went on there and what is going on there - at the same time as keeping track of what was going on in America. They lived in two worlds.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: And sometimes, we, who have an opportunity to go to college, uh, think that we have it all, but we really don't. We probably have, ah, just a finger, thumbnail full of background of knowledge compared to what these people did who were have enough, you know, to pick up their whole family. 10 children, a husband and wife - go to a place where they couldn't even speak the language and didn't know what was ahead of them. It was, uh, an amazing - it was an amazing chore, but everybody did it in those days. I guess, I guess it, you just took a chance. Today, people are worried about moving to Charlotte, North Carolina; and they’re debating and going - and you know, it's a, it’s a big challenge. Here, people left to go to a new country. And didn't know what was ahead of ‘em - didn't know, didn’t know what was coming&nbsp; Uh…now, how did I happen to end where I am?&nbsp; </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Uh, I went to college in Syracuse University in 1945. And, uh, my parents thought that certainly, anyone who is able ought to go to college and be educated and be something. My father said, "Well, why don't you become an optometrist? Ya know?”</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: “And I'll put a little place for ya in the back of the store. I'll tell all my friends-”</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: [laughs]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: “-you know, my son’s here, you’ll take care of him." In those days, Rudolph's had an optometrist - uh, you used to get your glasses in a jewelry store. That was the thing to do. Hilkins, which was one of the oldest - the oldest jewelry store in Endicott - was originally an optical place and a jeweler. That's what Mr. Hilkins needs, an optician; and that's how they got into business. So in those days, at least on that particular point, I didn't argue. So I went to Syracuse University and took the necessary courses to go to study optometry at Columbia University. In those days, you went to college for two years and then studied optometry for two years.&nbsp; And so, I underwent some courses in math; in calculus; in physics; in chemistry; in scientific German; whatever I needed to do. And, uh, applied to get into Columbia. Just at the time I applied, all the veterans were returning&nbsp; from the war, and I was a youngster who just went to college at just being, just a little over16 years old…so that I was only 18 years when all the veterans of 24 - 5 - 6 - 8 were coming out of the service. They were given preference and I didn't get in. I really wasn't too sad because I, I really [laughs]…it wasn't my idea in the first place - it was father's.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: So I continued my education, and majored in sociology which I found very interesting, and studied about world population problems and, and ethnic backgrounds and all the things that we’re interested in today. Juvenile delinquency, criminology, and so forth. It, it was an interesting way to, to see life. I was very much involved in the&nbsp; campus activities, and the dean knew my name, and the chancellor knew my name. And, however, very - hardly a teacher knew who I was. I wasn't the most excellent student. But, upon graduation, I thought certainly the world had - is looking for a guy&nbsp; like me with all these talents, and abilities, and so forth. And, and I went out to look for a job. During this period of time, I’d met the girl who later became my wife, and, uh, she was interested in seeing me get established and get going. And so, the pressure was on. So upon graduation from college, I had to do something. And lo and behold, there weren't too many jobs available in 1949.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: But, uh, because I helped my father after school, and a, maybe couple summer vacations, in the jewelry business, I ended up getting a job with Kay Jewelers. Which at the time had its headquarters in Washington, D. C. In 1949, Kay Jewelers was the largest jewelry chain in the country. And they had a training&nbsp; program for young people, such as myself. So, so I went to Rochester, N. Y. where I went to work as a trainee for $45.00 a week. And I worked six days a week; the store was open two nights and we trimmed a window one night. So I worked three nights a week and our manager liked to work every Sunday morning. So I worked every Sunday morning as well. So that was an interesting introduction to how-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">[Both laugh]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: -how to have to work for a living. I didn't have a car, and I used to ride back and forth on a bus and lived in a room in a rooming house. And many times didn't talk to anybody from the day I left the s-time I left the store ‘till the next morning. Because I'd go to a restaurant and have something to eat, went home, and went to a movie, and that’s about it. But a year later, I was married. My wife and I settled in, in Rochester and she worked across the street in the Girl Scout office, and I in the, in the Kay Jewelers. And there I was until I was rescued from this terrible fate because I really didn't enjoy the level of the business. It was a credit business doing business with, um, uh, the black population. At that time, I felt they were really being taken advantage of - 50¢ down, 50¢ a week, selling things to people who couldn't afford it. It was, uh, it was not a nice thing to get off. But I was rescued by all this by Uncle Sam who said, "You'd better come with&nbsp; me," because Korea had just started and I was about to get drafted. So I entered the U.S. Coast Guard where I went to Officer Candidate School - later became an officer and skipper of a Coast Guard cutter in Norfolk, Virginia. I stayed in&nbsp; Norfolk, Virginia for two years. Didn't know quite what to do - maybe I’d go to law school, maybe I’d do something; go back to get a graduate degree in business. When my father wrote me a note one day-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: [clears throat]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: -that he was going to buy a jewelry store - Abraham’s Jewelry and, and Luggage Store - on Chenango St. And said, “You’ll come home - we'll have a second store, you’ll be en [sic], it’ll be terrific.” So we made plans to come to Endicott, and to move there, and to settle. And now we have a youngster: Our oldest son, uh, Rick. And we were all set to come when my dad called to say, “The deal fell through, but come here, anyway.” So come home, anyway, we did. And we lived in Endicott in a, on a house on McKinley Avenue. I went to work joining my father’s business in 1953. I stayed with him, working with him side by side from 1953 until he died in 1965. Our, after our parents died in ‘55 and ‘56, my brother and I remained owners of Ruby &amp; Sons. And in 1969, uh, Kenneth Van Cott had decided to retire. At first, my brother Carl and I were both going to, uh, buy this store and run them together. But, as we worked out the details, it appeared that we would be much better off if, uh, each of us had our own business. So I bought Van Cott's, selling my interest to the Endicott store to Carl. So as of the past nine years, Carl owns Ruby &amp; Sons and I own Van Cott' s, and we're best friends, and it works out, works out very, very good.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Um, after getting involved in the jewelry business, one of the first things I did was to&nbsp; start taking courses in gemology and diamond study because it appeared to me from the very start that, that Mr. Van Cott had the right approach on the, on the jewelry business. He was a professional and he was an expert; he was a registered jeweler in the American Gem Society. And it appeared that that's the kind of person you should be: If you’re going to be a jeweler, be first class in all the way. So we sort of copied everything he did in, in organizing our store and changing it from a credit store to what we call a fine jewelry store. And so we copied everything in Endicott to make our store as close as it could be to Van Cott’s. So now our two stores are similar in character. Uh, Van Cott's still has a tradition that goes way back to the early 1900s as </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">the</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: -quality store in Binghamton. And we still have customers coming in, uh, as a result of that. But we, I did become a registered jeweler in the American Gem Society, and for a number of years it was just Mr. Van Cott and myself who held this title. Today in our store we have two other young men plus myself who hold the title of, uh, of registered jeweler.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: [coughs]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: At the present time, I am on a board of directors at the American Gem Society- one of 12 jewelers in the whole country who was elected to this post. I am also serving this year as president of the New York State Retail Jewelers’ Association, uh, for the second year in a row. So I think being involved in, in organizations and in the jewelry business is very much important. Incidentally, uh, there's a third generation of Levine’s involved in the, the jewelry. Our son, Bill, who graduated from Syracuse University two years ago, is now in California at the Gemological Institute of America where he teaches&nbsp; courses in diamond study and diamond grading. People from all over the world come to take these courses. And he's been there now going on two years and enjoys very much what he’s doing. He's become quite a speaker and traveled to Kansas, and to Missouri - addressing retail jewelers’ groups on how important it is to be a professional jeweler and, and have the knowledge and ability that is required to grade diamonds and gem stones. The jewelry business today keeps going on, and will go on forever because from day one - from the very first time when a primitive cave man looked down and saw a shiny pebble that shined just a little bit more than the rest, he put it in his little pouch&nbsp; and saved it because it looked special. And if he liked someone extra special, maybe he even gave that little, beautiful, polished stone to him or to her to show his feelings. And jewelry throughout the years has done the, just that: It has conveyed people's feelings and emotions. I'm not sure that people even felt stronger about how much they would put into a piece jewelry years ago than today. My father had told me how to give, to be a godparent of a child was a very big&nbsp; thing a couple generations ago - 50 years ago. When you were named as the godparent of a child, it was an honor that, that you know - above everything. You bought all of the children's&nbsp; clothes, and you did everything and, and…if he was a boy, you bought him a pocket watch. And my father would tell me how people would buy a beautiful pocket watch - which today are back in style - and people would spend $50.00. $50.00 on a solid gold pocket watch. And these people didn't make good…$20.00 a week. Can you&nbsp; imagine that? They spent 2 and a half weeks’ money on a christening gift. That’s today like giving somebody - I don't know - a $500.00 christening</span> <span style="font-weight: 400;">gift. You wouldn’t think of it. So…I'm not so sure that even though we give jewelry today, I don't think we stretch our, the limits of our involvement as much as we did way back when, when we realized that we wanted to give something extra special. And it would be nothing - I can recall in the early 50s when we did a lot of business with Endicott Johnson workers - for an Endicott Johnson worker to buy a Christmas gift for $50…for wife or husband to give a gift to each other…and in those days, usually both people worked in the factory. And they came in on a Friday afternoon with their paycheck; Friday afternoon, they came in and paid on their account with their paycheck, and they cashed their checks. Rarely was the check over $50.00. And they paid $1.00 on&nbsp; their account. They paid $1.00. It would take a whole year to pay for their Christmas gift. And they never missed a week because the Endicott Johnson people had this&nbsp; reputation for being most credit-worthy and being very, very responsible. For, uh, even though they didn’t make big incomes, when they accepted an obligation, they accepted it, uh, very wholeheartedly. And they very rarely backed down on it. One time, though, he, my father told me of an incident where a man didn't - wasn't quite so honest. And he bought one of these big, beautiful pocket watches I'm talking about which was $100.00 with chain and gold chain, a pocket watch. And…he sold it. My father sold it on credit, as he often did - this is without a credit bureau - nobody called the credit bureau, [laughs]&shy; nobody called anything. you looked at a guy - he looked honest, he worked at E.J., so you trusted him. What the heck! But o and behold, the next week, a man came in to my father and said, "Ruby, did you sell a pocket watch to such-and-such a fellow's name?"</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">And he said, "Sure."</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">He says, "Well, you know, he's going back to the Old Country for good. He's leaving town and he's not corning back, and he's taking your watch with him."</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Well, $100.00 is a lot of money, especially in those days. So my father got on the very early morning Erie train at 4 o’clock in the morning, rode all the way to New York City where the man had told him the name of the ship that this man was going to sail on. So he got there to the ship where the people were loading up - and lo and behold! There's the man. My father said, "What's the big idea? Where's my watch?" It was right there in his pocket. He said, "What kind of guy are you to take - steal that watch from me- take it all the way to Europe?" So he got his watch back. Another interesting story he told is: In 1934, one day, he got a call in the middle of the night from the police department that his store was broken into on Washington Ave.&shy; So that, uh, they went down and that’s just what happened; the front door was broken, people gained entrance to the store, and many of the rings, watches, and so forth were in trade, were all taken, strewn around. Almost everything was missing. Well, you didn't have insurance - at least, he didn't have insurance to cover himself that day, and he was really sick. However, the next day, he had a visit from a man, friend, a customer. And he said, "Ruby.” He said, "I know who robbed your store." He said, "And I'll tell you who it is." He said, "I was having a drink in a restaurant last night, and I heard these two fellas talking about doing a job.”</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">“They were gonna do a job? Well, what were they gonna do?”</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">And he [the customer] said, “I don’t know nothin’. They never mentioned the name of the place. But he said, “I’m sure that’s the people." So he told him who it was. And they were arrested, and they were able to recover, uh, some of the things.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">[phone interruption] Hello? Hello? [hangs up phone]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">So that was just another instance where my father's, uh, friendly relationships with people, you know, was, was such that, uh…</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: It, it really helped him. And, and, and I think that's probably the most important factor, uh, in the life of those people who, like himself, came and settled in a new country in the early 1900s. They came without a formal background, a formal education, but they, they had a sense of pride and responsibility. Um, when the American Legion had a parade, when Fourth of July came, or Veteran's Day, Memorial Day - it was a big thing. It was a big thing in Endicott and everybody was there. And even though these people, uh, didn't have roots that went back to the, to the Declaration of Independence in 1776, or the Civil War, or anything else</span><b>…</b><b><br /></b><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: I think these new immigrants felt more strongly about the pride in their country.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: And respect to the flag than, than many of&nbsp; our children feel today. They take it for granted; we all, we all take it for granted. Um, growing up in Endicott was an interesting experience, and quite often I'm approached by people who are studying economics, and they hear about the terrible monopoly that existed in Endicott when the Johnson family took advantage of all the people, and re-surfed them, and became now - wealthy and millionaires. And I disagree with them heartly [sic] because growing up in Endicott as I did, I don't remember depressions or breadlines…I can remember a couple times people came to our house for something to eat, and my mother would say, "Well, why don't you rake up the leaves and do something?" So they didn’t feel like they were beggars. And, and they would do a little bit of work. And for that, in return she would give them something to eat. But, um…yeah, I think it was just a warm, friendly relationship. People used to sit on the front porches. This is a thing gone - of sitting on a front porch and saying "hello" to your neighbors, and talking to people as they wen up and down the street. Across the street from Endicott…ah, ah, in Endicott on McKinley Ave. was a little bend in McKinley Ave. where an alley is. An, an area was set up there where men used to pitch quoits every night. I don't know if you remember a family - Sutton. Sutton owned a drug store and there was a man named Kent who was an IBM’er…and a man named Bradley. Worked in the tannery; his son, Bob Bradley is head of Maine-Endwell. I think, uh, [of its] physical education department. His son, Tom, has a bar - redheaded - has a bar-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Yeah.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: -on Arthur Ave., someplace. Anyway, they used to pitch quoits every night. And they went to Nanticoke Creek - we used to call that Nanticoke Crick.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: And I still do. And they got clay and they, they made these, uh, pits. And as youngsters, we used to sit there, they used to play, and we would keep score. Well, this was, this was sort of a community get-together. Everybody went there and, and it was just an informal get-together. But, everyone knew everyone. And I can recall as a youngster that you could go from one block - from Monroe St. to Broad St., behind all the houses on McKinley Ave. There wasn't a fence; there wasn't a fence. And little by little, the fences started coming - and the shrubs and the hedges. Whereas today, you know, we live in the backyard society. Now, if you want to have sun you, you sit in the backyard. And when you’re there, you don't see anybody and nobody sees you. That’s the way we live today. But, growing up in Endicott as we did, you sat on the front porch and watched everyone go by - it was a wonderful&nbsp; institution. But, getting back to the Johnsons…when we went to a band concert on Sun, on Sunday night, as everybody did, and Mr. George F. used to come, sit in the front row and pass out nickels, or shake hands, or whatever he did…um, he didn't have a body guard that I know of. I don't think anybody was worried he would be shot, or hurt, or anything. Because he really, uh…the people had a love and respect for him. Everybody knew that his door was open; if you had a problem, you went to see Mr. George F. And if you wanted to have a church, a handful of families got together and said, "Look: We'd like to pray in our own, certain way.”</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">And he said, "How much money do you need?"</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">And you had a church. And when the people in the&nbsp; American Legion wanted to have an American Legion, he said, “Here’s, here’s the money. You know? Build one.” </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">And they had one in Endicott, one in West Endicott, one in Johnson City - wherever they wanted. He saw to it that, uh, the people's basic needs were provided for. It’s amazing how he understood people's basic needs. He knew they wanted their own home, a place to raise a garden, a place for recreation - built these beautiful parks and golf courses. I mean, who would ever think that the best golfers in Endicott 40 years ago used to be fellas who worked in the tannery? And they got out at 1 o'clock because they did all their work, and</span> <span style="font-weight: 400;">they used to go, and they used to go to play golf. The best golfers in Endicott used to work in the tannery. I mean, it’s unheard of. Today we think of people at a fancy Country Club who are going to be golfers - you know, the millionaires? In those days, it was the big strong fellows that could pull those hides out of the tanks and had all afternoon to learn to play golf. So that it, uh…it was a wonderful heritage growing up in Endicott. Uh, I think it was a melting pot - people of all, uh, backgrounds, uh, felt that they had something in common.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: And, uh, they shared and helped one another. I don't think there was tremendous bigotry. Uh, growing up as a person of the Jewish religion in Endicott, it was&nbsp; certainly a tremendous minority. One thing I can remember most vividly is that, in eighth grade, we used to take a course called, “civics.” We used to have to take, “civics” and “citizenship.” It, it was always frightening because those were the first two regents things you took before ninth grade. And everybody had to take civics and citizenship. And I could remember in one of the courses - civics or citizenship - the teacher was trying to have us understand that, the concept of a melting pot. How America consisted of all these people from all different backgrounds who sort of came together.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">And she said, "You know? It would be a fun experiment if we could see right here in our class what countries are the backgrounds people came from.” So she said, “Let's try this: I'm going to mention these countries, and if you have a parent who came from one of these countries, why don’t you stand up and we’ll see what it is."</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">So she mentioned England - a few people stood up. You know, Scotland; Ireland; Germany; Italy; Czechoslovakia. And they finally got to Russia. And she said, you know, "Anybody's parents who’re from Russia, stand up."</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">And I stood up. Along with four, five, or six kids. And these kids looked at me and said, "Why are you standing up? You're not Russian! You’re Jewish."</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: [laughter]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: So it was hard for them to understand that in Russia, some people were Jewish, too.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: They weren’t just, uh, Russian Orthodox or whatever church the Russian people belong to. But, uh, our children probably missed this. And they'll never quite understand what, uh, what it meant to grow up in a community where…I guess everybody started from base zero. And where they got, was closer to, to being close together. And now, after a couple generations, uh, perhaps in a sosh, socio-economic level, uh…some people's children are going off to private schools, and colleges, and living in fancy homes. And, and no longer come in contact with a general mixture of people of all different backgrounds. Of course, the people of the second generation greatly resisted their cultural background. I can recall how customers would come into the store with their parents. And my father would conduct the conversation with their&nbsp; parent - in Italian, Polish, Slavish or whatever it was - and the kids would listen. And my father would talk to them in their native tongue and the kids would answer back in English.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: He said, “Don't you do that.” He said, “You’re going to be sorry if you don't take advantage of learning this language when you have the chance.”</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">But, so many people - second generation - just wanted&nbsp; to be Americanized. And they didn't want to be identified with anything old; they just&nbsp; wanted to be identified with the new. In fact, some of the children, I'm sure, were embarrassed a little bit that their parents spoke with an accent and didn't speak perfect English. And, um, it certainly is nothing to be ashamed of. Because as I mentioned in the beginning, these people are heads and shoulders over us. They understand two worlds and we don't do too much of a job, uh, understanding one. As to my, uh, background and club affiliations? Uh, early in my life, probably one of the most important things in my life I ever did was to get involved with the scouting movement - in boy scouting. Much of my time as a teenager was spent concerning myself as a Boy Scout Troop, Sea Scout Troop. Which incidentally met at the First Methodist Church. And I can recall every Scout Sunday, during Scout Week - on Scout Sunday, I marched into the First Methodist Church with all the other scouts and sat and listened to this church service. Which, you know, was very, uh foreign to me. I listened to it; I wasn't 100% comfortable.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: But, I thought it wouldn't hurt if I did that. And then that was…that’s certainly what we did. On returning to Endicott in 1953, I became involved in Endicott Kiwanis Club - which certainly was a, a rewarding experience. Uh, throughout the years, l’ve been involved in many community activities. Uh, at this time, I happen to be serving as a trustee on the Binghamton Savings Bank, as a trustee on the Board of Binghamton General Hospital, I'm on the Board of WSKG TV and Radio as a trustee. I happen to be involved as President of the Jewish Cemetery Association, as a necessary job someone&nbsp; has to do. I’ve served in the past year as a Vice-President of the Boy Scouts’ Council. Uh, Vice-President of the Temple of Israel. Uh…I, I try to get involved in as many things as I can. Years ago, I was, uh, President of the Endicott, Vestal-Endwell Chamber of Commerce when we had such an organization. I was Chairman of the Merchants’ Organization when I was in Endicott on Washington Ave. Few years ago, I was Chairman of the Merchants’ Association here on Court Street. But, when we opened our new store at the Oakdale Mall, seemed it wasn't right for me to be Chairman of the Court Street Businessmen…well, because I had two stores, perhaps competing with the Binghamton merchants. How much more time do we have on this tape? Do you know?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: [unintelligible]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: Let's just speak for a few minutes about the, uh, the settlement of the few Jewish families who did settle in Endicott. Um, in the early 1920s, there were probably a handful, maybe 10 - 15 Jewish families who settled in the Endicott area. Most of these were small merchants that had small shops. Some even started out on Washington Ave. with a little store front and, uh, lived in the back of the store. Uh, over the store. I think that, uh, Shapiro's did - Shapiro's Men's Shop. And Lachman's - Buddy Lachman's parents had a haberdashery store. I think this is how they started. Uh, with a store and a little house - a little apartment behind a store or above a store. So this little handful of people became very much involved…they were never large enough to have their own Jewish congregation. Although, the women saw to it that they got together on a regular basis - that the children were given Jewish education. Uh, we used to drive to Binghamton in a car pool, to a Sunday school every Sunday. And during the week, we went to religious instruction after school. The Endicott school system used to provide a classroom for the Jewish people to have Jewish instruction. And I can remember I had to go off after school. The other kids wanted to play ball or something. And Nick Paks, and Paul Kominos, and some of the Greek kids were going to Greek lessons and we were going Hebrew school. And, and we both had to do the same things after school. So the, um…the Jewish people did cling together because they had a common, common heritage. Common background. Uh, without a, a permanent place of religion to worship in. Uh, arrangements were made to rent space in the Odd Fellows Hall. And the Odd Fellows Hall - which was on Riverview Drive right next door to the American Legion - had big rooms above it. And so, during the High Holy days on Yom Kippur; Rosh Hashanah; the Jewish New Years, we would hold, uh, our religious services in this building. On those, these three days. Oftentimes on Sunday afternoons, uh, a get-together would be held. And using the social facilities on the main floor of this Odd Fellows Hall, we would have a joint, uh, dinner, or program, or such. And again, the children knew each other; everyone was sort of together. And, uh, it was quite a, it was quite an involved, close, closely knit community. The day finally did arrive - I believe in the late 1940s when Temple Beth-El was built - my father and a number of other people were most instrumental in seeing that a building was built. A permanent house of worship. And, uh, this building was built, uh, Jefferson Ave., in Endicott. Interestingly enough, uh, the St. Paul's Episcopal Church was going to do some remodeling and the&nbsp; church had to be shut down. So that the two congregations got together and shared the use of Temple Beth-El on Sundays. The Episcopal people came to use the facilities, and on Friday and Saturday, the Jewish services were held. Uh, uh…for me to get totally into a discussion involving the basis of the Jewish religion probably would take three/four hours, and I don't know if I'm the most capable person to do that. But, I think it is interesting to note that, uh, many of these people who started out in this community have, have grown and, and settled in Broome County and found their way in prominence…uh, Herb Kline, son of Jim Kline Men's Store, is now a very prominent Binghamton attorney. Bud Lachman, also an attorney. Uh, happens to practice in Endicott; lives in Binghamton. Bruce Becker, whose father was an attorney - following in his father's&nbsp; footsteps. He’s, uh, an attorney today, as well. Irvin Shapiro, who runs a very fine men's store - following in his father's footsteps. My two brothers are in Endicott running a jewelry business - it goes back to 1990. So that you can see that, ah, a number of these people came to the community, stayed and settled. Sandy Salerson, whose father was a, a well known figure on Washington Ave. now works at, uh, - had his own business for a while with his father-in-law, now works in Montgomery Ward in the appliance department. So that, many of these people are still here. Uh, Murray Shapiro - whose father was manager of Rudolph’s for many, many years -</span> <span style="font-weight: 400;">still lives in this community. He’s, uh, holds a position at IBM. And you can see that from this tiny, little community evolved a very strong background of, of people who were involved in the community, and they stayed here, and contributed to it. And were lucky enough to share in those early years when, when they got to know the community of Endicott, and, and they grew up with all, with kids from all over. You know, in those days, the north side was a sort of a no-no place. Today, the north side of Endicott has the most beautiful homes, the most beautiful golf course; it’s, uh, the most elegant, lovely place. Upper Taft Ave., is, is just beautiful.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm. And downtown, which used to be so terrific is, is [chuckles] where-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: [lightly chuckles]</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: -all the decay is. So it took 50 years for the tables to turn, but, uh, but it certainly did. And it’s interesting to look back on. Okay?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Yeah, that’s-</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: That would give us something to do.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: How ya doin’?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Well, Herb, this was very interesting interview, I wanna thank you very much. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Herbert: Good. It’ll be interesting to see what it all looks like when we’re done.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Mm-hm. Okay.</span></p> Rights Statement <span>This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.</span> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Herbert Levine Subject The topic of the resource Levine, Herbert -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Endicott (N.Y.); Russians -- United States; Jews; Syracuse University; Korean War, 1950-1953; Jewelry trade; Jewelry stores Description An account of the resource Herbert Levine talks of his father's family and their immigration from Russia to the United States because of the religious persecution against the Jewish people. The family initially settled in the lower East Side of New York City. Levine's father, who had apprenticed with a jeweler in Russia, was able to find work in a jewelry factory, but left due to ill health. He then went to an agriculture school and upon graduating went to work on a farm for a short period of time. He then settled in Syracuse, NY where he went to work for his brother as a jewelry salesman. Being able to several languages was advantageous in his sales. During World War I he entered the armed services and was wounded. As a result he received a Purple Heart. Upon returning home he settled in the Triple Cities where he became a successful jewelry salesman because he spoke several languages. He later married and opened a jewelry business in Endicott, NY. Levine briefly talks about his mother's family. Levine also discusses his own life. He attended Syracuse University and after graduation went to work for Kay Jewelers until he was drafted during the Korean War. After the war ended he went to work at his father's jewelry business, Ruby and Sons, which he continued to operate after his father's death. He later sold his interest in the store to his brother and then purchased Van Cott's. He discusses his life in Endicott, as a child and as an adult, the Jewish population in Endicott and the organizations he belonged to. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 70 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/06d55d4187e0310b6bfc7059913b88af.jpg f106037500b185d02f99a83345bc68e1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/409574f0375b627e5b55c6e953d48be7.mp3 b589ffdf58b1f2e7361af161c57c7497 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-07-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hettie Jones Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Hettie Jones is the author of 20 books but is best known for her memoir of the Beat Scene. She started the literary magazine Yugen, has taught writing at SUNY Purchase, Penn State, the University of Wyoming, and is one of the faculty members in the graduate program for creative writing at The New School in New York City. She has been chair of a plethora of writing programs and has received grants to start a writing program in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Jones received her Bachelor's degree in Drama from the University of Virginia and pursued her postgraduate work at Columbia University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:4527,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Hettie Jones (1934-2024) was the author of 20 books but is best known for her memoir of the Beat Scene. She started the literary magazine <em>Yugen</em>, has taught writing at SUNY Purchase, Penn State, and the University of Wyoming, and was one of the faculty members in the graduate program for creative writing at The New School in New York City. She has been chair of a plethora of writing programs and has received grants to start a writing program in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Jones received her Bachelor's degree in Drama from the University of Virginia and pursued her postgraduate work at Columbia University.</span> Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Beat Generation; WWII; Art expression; American Art; Literature; Women; Sex; SDS; Baby boom generation; Atomic bomb; Freedom of expression; Hippies; Trust.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5041,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Beat Generation; WWII; Art expression; American Art; Literature; Women; Sex; SDS; Baby boom generation; Atomic bomb; Freedom of expression; Hippies; Trust; Beats; Seventies; Sixties; Fifties; War; Writing; Writers; Students; Activism.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 105:31 Subject LCSH Authors; College teachers; Jones, Hettie--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Hettie Jones Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers Date of interview: 6 July 2009 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:09 SM: Still there? Hello, Hettie? 00:18 HJ: Are you there? 00:19 SM: Yep, I am here. 00:20 HJ: Okay. I do not know which phone is better, but I am just going to try them all out. Sometimes it is so difficult, and they are doing something to the street, you know, this is just an incredible area for change. 00:35 SM: Right. 00:36 HJ: But I have closed the windows and hopefully they are on a break. They started this I think at seven o'clock this morning doing something in the street, you know, and jack hammers 00:48 SM: Ah, yeah, there is a lot of that going around here. Not near me but road construction. 00:55 HJ: That is the way it is. Okay, well, I am trying this phone. Can you hear me well enough? 00:59 SM: Yeah, yep, I can hear you. 01:01 HJ: That is good. Okay. 01:02 SM: All right, let us start. The first question I wanted to ask is, when I met with Dr. Marilyn Young, the historian at New York University, maybe five, six years ago, and I asked the question, when did the (19)60s begin and she said, the (19)60s began with the Beat writers. And I think I mentioned this to you on the phone too, or in my letter, she is the only person that ever said that and all the people I have interviewed. Of course, she is a great historian. What do you think she was talking about when she said the (19)60s began with the Beats? 01:39 HJ: Well, because the (19)60s began with the television exposure and the media exposure. Do not forget that was just about the time, that television was growing into it as a medium for the dissemination of information. Before that, it was just sort of game shows and roller derby and just comedy and stuff like that. It was not a very serious thing. Yeah, they had the news but, the Beats somehow were well, I believe there were two things that I can think of: Jack Kerouac appeared on television, reading his poetry. And, what else was the other thing? Life magazine published an article about the Beats. So that these two small things, you would think small, things have made a big change. We were a very, very small group as I have written, you know. Everybody fit into my living room and it was not a very large living room. But then when we moved to a larger space, suddenly there were all these, well, I can only describe them as "wanna beats". And, the whole, the whole idea of rebellion had exploded, the whole idea of forging ahead with your own life and not conforming had made its way into the culture. And then there was suddenly hundreds of people doing that! And you know, in the later (19)60s, because of the Vietnam War and everything, people, young people felt that they could speak out. The threat of, I guess the silence that was imposed on the populace during the Second World War "Loose lips sink ships." You are not old enough to recall that, but I remember posters and things like that. So we were all expected to conform and to go live in the suburbs and be quiet and build peace and have a lot of children to replace all the people that died in the war. But suddenly it was not like that anymore. So that is why I believe it began, and we were a role model for people. 04:28 SM: I was looking up in a book, like four qualities that were described for the Beat Generation, which was, these qualities were: Eastern spirituality, alternative forms of sexuality, experimentation with drugs, and a rejection of a mainstream American values. And when I see that being described for the Beats, that is a lot of what happened in the counterculture in the (19)60s. That when you have the, the Beats, maybe the counterculture was the follow-up to those qualities in the in the (19)60s. Could you comment on those four qualities? 05:13 HJ: Well, you know, you are talking about everything except art. You are talking about everything except writing. 05:20 SM: Right. 05:21 HJ: So the Beats were writers. But they, if you want to include the entire Bohemia at that time, the abstract expressionist painters, the jazz musicians who were changing things. I think we were all interactive with one another, and it was more than lifestyle changing and more than attitudinal changing. It was really the Beats challenged the expected established ideas of what was American art. And you know, everybody knows that art goes before social change, it points the way to social change, points the way to real estate! Art is there, that is why they call us avant-garde! You know. And so, those four points that you mentioned, I would associate so much more with the people who came after us. The hippies, because, we were not; yes, we were doing that, all the points you mentioned it, but our focus was mainly on the commentary and the challenge to the culture that writing, that the writing brought, I think. But yeah, I guess certainly you know, they took the ball and ran with it. But they ran with it; the experimenting with drugs, for example, the only reason we did that was to achieve a higher consciousness and not for quote, unquote "recreation." And, I think it just had, it just had a little segue there into let us get, you know, who was it who used to say? Let us all get stoned, whatever that whoever made that, I forget! [laughs] 07:39 SM: Might have been Tim Leary. Who knows. 07:41 HJ: No, I think it was maybe Bob Dylan. [laughs] 07:44 SM: Yeah. 07:45 HJ: Do not forget, Bob Dylan was around in the village and if you read his autobiography, he attended LeRoi Jones' plays, he read On the Road. Yeah, he was very much influenced. 08:04 SM: When you talk about the arts here, obviously the arts of either the great writers of the Beats in the (19)50s and early (19)60s, and of course, they continue to write throughout their entire lives and are continuing to do so. But when you look at the, maybe some of the artists that came up in the (19)60s, or early (19)70s, whether they be musicians or painters, who would those that influenced the boomers. Who would? Who would they be? 08:33 HJ: Well, you know, it is hard for me to really project. I am not an historian and you know, I specialize in having a Zen mind. It is a blank mind so that I can write. 08:46 SM: Right? 08:47 HJ: So when I am thinking back into history, as to, I am not a critic, who influenced whom, I would still have to say, you know, thousands of people and billions of people read On the Road. Young black people have read or heard about or saw LeRoi Jones' plays. I think some of the women, but women were not really in the mix so much, but who else? Allen Ginsberg, of course. You know, millions and millions of people here and overseas listen to Allen and his rants. He was probably the most influential of anybody, and everybody wanted to "Mola Mola", you know. Turn over the establishment. Rail against war. Do this, do that. But they felt free to open their mouths because of those writers, I think. 09:58 SM: One of the things here, I put these thoughts down regarding the (19)50s. What were the circumstances in the late (19)40s and (19)50s that created the Beats and influenced the early lives of their children? Which are boomers. I put down some of the things that I would remember if I was just an elementary school kid from the (19)50s. President Eisenhower and his smile, the Space Race, Sputnik, Castro and (19)57, Khrushchev, Hungry in 1956, the Berlin Wall, parents had jobs that were secure, parents wanted to make sure that their kids were protected and they had more than when they grew up in the Depression. Moms were at home taking care of the kids and dads were always at work. And there was a seeming respect for authority. And certainly the term Communism was popular, was around at that time and of course McCarthyism, he was trying to find scapegoats and we all know that there is still a lot of segregation in the South. Just your thoughts on those qualities that obviously affected the Beats. They were commenting on them. 11:17 HJ: Well, we were running from them and, and doing whatever we could to set them aside and to try to invent a new life. You know, personally. I guess I experienced every single thing that that you have just listed and, my whole attitude was that I would just going to invent a whole new way to become a woman. From the clothing I wore, to my attitudes about being free to be a sexual being. Yes, certainly. I was in opposition to all of those, but I was not necessarily willing to engage all of those things that were in place. Because if you spend your time fighting, what is the established rule in every aspect, then you are just fighting and fighting, but you have not invented anything new. So my attitude and they attitude of all of the Beats that I knew and particularly women was simply go it alone or find kindred spirits, if you could, which we did a few of us. Just invent a new way of life by embarking on one and going forward rather than forever issuing challenges. 12:59 SM: Hettie, you bring up an important point, because when, when a lot of people think of the (19)50s, the (19)60s and early (19)70s, they see men always in charge of movements. And what was interesting is even when you look at the women's movement, and you study the history of it in the (19)60s, and how women were tired of being second figures and a lot of the anti-war and civil rights and all the other movements, that was when the Women's Movement really came to fruition. But what you are saying is there was a lot going on in the (19)50s with women trying to assert their attitudes and beliefs and feelings. Could you comment a little bit on women of the (19)50s, Beat writers who are female of the (19)50s and what they had to overcome? 13:49 HJ: Well, let us establish the fact that there were not very many of them. Very few, very, very few people. And of all the people who fit into my living room, probably a third were women. So, but they were all just running, you know. I think in a story, "Running from home as hard as they could, but bringing them, bringing it with them all the same." It is a line from a story I have written but we brought our attitudes. We, we were not out to particularly offend people, but only to seize our lives. To take control of our lives. But as I said, we were castigated. Let us think about a time when if you did not live with your parents until you got married and then live with your husband, there was something suspect about you. You were suspect for having your own apartment no matter where it was, in the village, in my case and then the case of many of the Beats. But you were suspect. If you were a sexual being you, you know? You were violating the law, but everybody knew that kind of subversive life. You know, also as I have written that supporting myself, women have always had sex, you know, you could always have sex. You could have sex in the backseat of a car or in the under the haystack or behind the barn, you know. But you could not talk about it. You could not feel free to live your life as though that were a part of your life. And that I think was very different, that we did what we did, but it was clear that it was open and aboveboard. And that made a big difference. We did not want to hide again. But I think that the, the women who say the women in SDS who came later and the women at Kent State, places like that, had somehow absorbed that idea through whatever effects the Beats on them and felt freer. It is like, you know, the pebbles that you throw in the water and the rings go out, and out and out. 16:39 SM: You raise a very important point here because if you study the history of the Students for Democratic Society, and I just read a book on them by the leader of the anti-war movement at Columbia, Mark Rudd. He talks about the women who were involved with SDS and all the, basically, all the sex they had with different partners, and it was encouraged! It was encouraged by the leadership of SDS. 17:11 HJ: Yeah but you see that was a little different and they are something different. Nobody was controlling it. The Beats were a small enough group or the art community that I am speaking of really basically, not just the Beats. Nobody going to tell you that was a ̶ you know, go ahead and have sex with this one and that one. You just did what you wanted to do. You were not - you know sex was not emphasized. It was just considered a part of everyone's life and you were lucky enough to be able to handle it. It was not, "Oh, I am going to go have sex!" It was more like, "Oh, I am going to live in New Year where people are challenging the establishment by making art and trying to describe life as we want to be able to live it." But it was almost with SDS people and all those people, it was almost deliberate flaunting and opposition. 18:24 SM: Right. 18:25 HJ: That is the ̶ I think that, maybe it is a subtle difference, but it was a bit of a difference. 18:33 SM: Well, I know we are going to ̶ we want to talk more about the (19)50s. But I do have to ask one question because you raise kids that are Boomers. 18:41 HJ: No, not really. Well, I suppose your definition says (19)64 but they do not consider themselves that at all. 18:51 SM: (19)46 and (19)64. 18:54 HJ: Right. My kids were born and (19)59 and (19)61. But there were, you know, black women who never considered themselves a part of that generation at all. They really grew up in a time that was more the Civil Rights era, and do not forget they have a very well-known father and they marched and they did this and that. So, they are a little different. 19:26 SM: What? Is there one a specific event in your life that shaped you when you were young? 19:32 HJ: Oh, well. You know, it is, I always saw that I was going, that art was a talent for me and I have written about this. In my memoir, there was that scene in the beginning of my book when I talked about weaving a basket when I was six. But even prior to that one, I was probably four. I remember making some comments. Making a metaphor and all the adults around me making a big fuss over me and it stayed with me for a very long time. And I have actually got a little written piece about it. So, I always I just always knew that I was a little bit, not a little bit, but a lot, but basically different from the rest of my family. You know, the whole changeling thing. 20:46 SM: Yes. This might be a repetition here, but this is a question I sent when I sent the six questions dealing directly with the Beats. Do you feel the Beats had a direct influence on the (19)60s and (19)70s, even though they were identified with the (19)50s? 21:04 HJ: Oh, yes! And, you know, they are no longer - you know, I taught classes on the Beats. And they are no longer identified with one particular era. You have to, when you are teaching young people who are so far removed from those events, you have to point out all of the historical patterns that led to what the Beats did. But they simply identify with the open road and the freedom and the wonderful writing. That is what they like. And the fact that, you know, that, particularly On the Road or Howl, or any other [those are the two iconic pieces from the time] that they are not about what is usually the case now. Novels are about relationships and poems are about looking at your navel and like that. I think young people appreciate the fact that these are works of engagement in some way or another, and they like them. They like the freedom. They like the spirit. They like the voice. I think that is what they like. So I forgot your original question. I am just meandering here. 22:41 SM: That is okay. To you, when did the (19)50s begin? Now I am talking, we know (19)50s begin in 1950 and (19)51. But when people talk about the (19)60s, we know the (19)60s really did not end until (19)73 and (19)74. So when did the (19)50s really begin in your eyes with the postwar and all things that I mentioned? 23:06 HJ: I feels like the (19)50s were always there, even in the (19)40s. 23:11 SM: Yeah, talk about that. 23:14 HJ: You know, everything was so devoted to the war. The war! The war, the Second World War began when I was seven years old. And I had just, you know, I was beginning to read and I was conscious of the world around me at that point. And the whole idea was to hunker down. Do not forget, I am a Jew, and therefore, we were kept very quietly at home. Because if it could happen over there, it could happen over here. So I lead a, what you would probably call a very comfortable, but ghettoized life. And that seems to be operative until the end of the (19)40s. I went to college in 1951. But at that point, I was beginning to think a lot about where I was in the world and what the world was in the midst of. McCarthy. The Rosenbergs. The atom bomb. All of that kind of stuff. And I had political opinions. I went to college in the South and encountered for the first time my life prejudice against me as well as against black people. The roommate with whom I had been assigned did not want to live with me because I was a Jew, and a Yankee. So you see, it all began for me as soon as I got away from home and started to see a little bit of the rest of the world and thankfully be way from having myself under wraps in a certain sense when I was at home. I already saw that I had to invent a new way of life at that time, and that was when the (19)50s really, really began for me. In the (19)50s, I began to be a (19)60s person. Does that makes sense? 25:48 SM: Yes. 25:50 HJ: Good. 25:51 SM: Yeah, that I will follow that up with when do you think the (19)60s and early (19)70s began? 25:58 HJ: Well, you know, the Bohemia that in which we lived in the later (19)50s and in the early (19)60s. It was short lived but intense and, everything just began around that time. I do not know, (19)62, (19)63. I remember, maybe (19)59, that was the first time we had a television set. And I remember watching someone college student being spit upon and that was the first time television had that much of an effect. Watching television and watching these kids at a lunch counter in some state, I do not know exactly where it was, shopping, their all dressed up in their suits and you know, Sunday go-to-meeting clothes, looking real respectable, and being spit upon in a diner in the South. The (19)50s began right there for me, because I already had one child and was committing that child for that, to that kind of life and wow, you know, my head was expanding every day. 27:29 SM: So that really is that experience of seeing that on TV and then having a child was kind of a watershed moment for you. 27:37 HJ: I guess so. I can still, I can still see it in my mind. Yeah, you know, you do not take a consideration like that lightly when you are thinking all the time and you are twenty-five years old. 27:59 SM: One of questions I wanted to ask and think I got a couple more before I switch my tape here. Allen Ginsburg, who you knew very well, seemed to be all the writers of the Beats the one that transcended decades. Because I can remember as a college student in 1972, seeing him at Ohio State in the Ohio union doing his chanting. And he never spoke, never read any poetry, he just was there for almost two hours chanting. And the room was packed. It was kind of, it was a, it was kind of a "be in", it was a "happening". 28:37 HJ: Yes. 28:38 SM: But he seemed to be at a lot of the anti-war protests. He was all over the world, was dealing with a lot of issues. What was it about Ginsburg? Because he obviously was very close to a lot of the Boomers and the (19)60s people. What separated him from the other Beat writers with respect to his involvement? He was out there, he was everywhere! 29:01 HJ: Well, God bless him. You know, he was the one to do it. You know. What separates Bob Dylan from all the rest of the people? He was a man with a message, right? A rolling stone. And Allen was a, you know, from his very beginning, even at Columbia, somebody who was breaking away from the future that had been ordained for him, had he followed the usual pattern and going into something wider, and he had lots of media exposure, and he was very good. He had marvelous stage presence. He had incredible concentration. Allen was a very, very multitalented man in that respect, and fearless! And everyone had a lot of respect for him, because he would just stand up to anything. And he was very, you know, all these things were people who were very well read. And they, they were intellectual, in a lot of senses. They were not just populist figures who came out of nowhere. They, they were men with the messages. And Allen particularly was good with audiences. His politics were radical for the day, but, and he used it and he used the forum. Any forum he was offered. But he is less of a figure today more of an occult figure, although he is still beloved by people who read Howl. 31:19 SM: Alright, go right ahead. 31:22 HJ: So he is still beloved, but you know he is not in that, young people caught onto him because they see his rants against the establishment as theirs as well. I do not think anybody but Barack Obama has taken young people by storm, since Allen. 31:51 SM: I often noticed, because I have a lot of books on the Beats and some actually like Ferlinghetti's poetry and I have a lot of the City Lights books and I know Ferlinghetti has written poems on the (19)60s and the (19)70s many, and also, Anne Waldman wrote a great group of poems on Vietnam and Ed Sanders; so there was no question that the (19)60s and (19)70s really have - that many of the Beats were still - this is a very important period for them. 32:22 HJ: Oh, yeah, I think so. Well, do not forget Anne Waldman is much younger than everybody, you know. Anne Waldman is a decades younger and was way younger than Allen too. So, she was. Oh, I think more, more, if you want to talk about I do not know that. She doesn't identify with Boomers but who are the Boomer poets? We think we I do not know really. 32:58 SM: I can only, I can only think of one: Rod McKuen. 33:03 HJ: Yeah, I am not even familiar with him. As I told you when we discussed this interview, during the (19)70s, I was, during the late (19)60s and (19)70s, I was trying to keep my head up, trying to not lose my apartment, of trying to keep my kids on the straight and narrow, you know. I was trying to earn a living, and become a writer and the world just had to fall away at a certain point because even the feminist movement had to pass me by. I was not interested in a glass ceiling. I was not at all. I was concerned in trying to reinvent a life between the races for myself. So when you talk about popular figures and writers of the (19)70s, I am going to be at a loss. 34:12 SM: Right. Well, what is interesting here is you are talking about the writers of different periods. I have a question here. Before I get to that question, I wanted, you in your email to me, you gave a one line regarding the fact about the Boomers. And, I know we are not going to basically talk about the qualities and so forth about them. But I did want to ask you from afar, if you were to be asked, what are your thoughts on the young people that were involved in the anti-war movement and, you know, they were challenging authorities during that timeframe, and also the fact that the intellectual links because you have reiterated over and over again, I believe this, just like you that the intellectual environment which was, was set central core to the Beats, that a lot of the anti-war, and a lot of the things happening in the movements was also happening in the university environment, which is supposed to be an intellectual environment. And the challenges were coming in freedom of expression on university campuses, just as the writers are writing about it, you know, in the (19)50s. Challenging authority. Do you? Can you see, again, the link somehow even from afar, between these two intellectual environments, and the challenging of authority? 35:42 HJ: Well, when we talk about universities, do not forget, up to that point, universities were modeled on the Greek model and we studied Western civilization. Right? 35:59 SM: Yes. 36:00 HJ: And that was really the core curriculum. I think because of the fact that a lot of information pops up, is the right word to use here, about groups who are tangential to all of that came into the culture. People, the young people in the universities, were challenging what was taught. And there began the movement or inclusivity that had been, again challenged every step of the way because nobody learns the same thing anymore. Because the universities have eventually bowed to that and began including courses about other aspects about America. Right? American literature. I mean who read Momaday? He was an Indian? Hardly anybody. You know, who read Langston Hughes? Hardly anybody. Because he is a black man. But trying to get all of these brains into the university as part of American culture. This was an era when film criticism grew as a discipline. When, jazz began to be considered as music! Instead of just entertainment. A lot of different disciplines that required intellectual attention were being promoted. And I think young people who now felt freer than ever to speak their mind were challenging the university's old ways of, you know, studying dead white men and that was all we ever knew about. I mean, you know, unless you took specific courses, you did not learn about the American labor movement. I never had a class in which I learned about the women, the Suffragettes. I mean, yes, I had some general ideas that women got the vote in, you know 19(00), whatever it was (19)11 or something or other like that, but one did not do close studies of that. So, you know, a lot was changing in the universities that had to do with the desire that somehow began to be abroad in the land, and that there was a lot more to learn than what you learned in school. 39:06 SM: One of the qualities you are also looking at Herbert Huncke, who you obviously know. When I am reading on the beats, very important thing came out to the edge of Beat came to the group through the underworld association with Herbert Huncke, where it originally meant tired or beaten down. And a lot of the people in the (19)60s had that same feeling about being beaten down. And so I see these comparisons constantly between the Beat writers, the intellectual writing, the arts, and a lot of the activism of the (19)60s, the feeling of being beaten down. And just your thoughts on that. 39:53 HJ: Well, oppression, you know. And I do not know. You know the word 'beat', 85,000 ways. [laughs] It was a, it was a very convenient, very convenient term, but nobody, you can define it any way you really want to. But the, you know, Huncke, of course, oh, I think he was right. I think, you know, that is the generally accepted definition of it. But I think more, you know, in terms of the people in the sixtes; the college students, they were not beat. They were not junkies hanging out in Times Square. The way they interpreted really all of that kind of feeling was that they will repressed and of course, they were repressed. It was every kind of repression going on. Suppression. It was political for them and sexual and everything, and I think they just responded to it by acknowledging it. And you know how many roads must a man walk down before you can call him a man? Right? 41:17 SM: Yes. 41:20 HJ: They just took this fuse and I think popularized them. And of course, you know young people, they do whatever seems hippest. You have got to realize that when you are, well you know, when you are seventeen or eighteen, if you see something that is exciting, you will gravitate toward it that is where the cutest people were right? 41:48 SM: Freedom of expression is something you know, we just came off the July fourth weekend and our founding fathers and through two hundred plus years here in the United States freedom of expression is something we all love. We see what happens in Iran and the suppression going on over there. But if the Beats and their writing, obviously there was some suppression going on there. And even though we talk about freedom of expression in the United States of America, is not there a price one has to pay for truly speaking up? Whether it be through a great book, whether it be through an interview, or a TV show, or in the (19)60s through a protest? There is a price. Dr. King used to always say that if you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs, then you really do not have any beliefs. And especially if there is injustice happening, this concept of free expression - if you were in the room right now, with all the great Beat writers of the (19)50s and you were just going to have a conversation on the term "freedom of speech in the United States of America in 1955" what do you think most of your peers would say? 43:14 HJ: That it was limited, you know, I am just thinking of McCarthy in his day. I know I was in, I think I was still in college? Do you have McCarthy's dates? When the House on American Activities was? 43:32 SM: Yeah. That was early (19)50s. 43:38 HJ: (19)52, (19)53? 43:39 SM: Yes. 43:39 HJ: Yes. So that it was evident that speaking out and were using to speak up. People were jailed, blacklisted, jailed! So that had happened in the immediate past. In 1955, it would have been on everyone's mind. The bomb. Speaking out against the bomb. Speaking out against. You were a communist sympathizer, if you even said that maybe there was something to socialism, not even communism but socialism heaven forbid. Equality for women, parity in the work ̶ We did not even get that far in the mid (19)50s. But, yeah, of course a price would be paid! You know the first demonstration that I ever went on was not until I had one child so it would have been 1960 and it was when Castro came to the UN, and we marched around the park. I have written about this in front of the UN. And they had a whole cordon of mounted policemen who [inaudible] us. And they did not let me march with my baby in her stroller. 44:31 SM: Hmm. 44:44 HJ: You know, and they made me go sit on a bench. They said it was too dangerous. So yeah. Oh dear, someone is ringing my bell. Steve can you bear with me because that may be a kind of a package. 45:37 SM: Yep, yeah, I will bear with it. I will wait. 45:38 HJ: I do not want it to go back to the - Okay, thanks a lot. 45:41 SM: Yep. Alright, I got my tape back on. Continue what you are saying. 45:48 HJ: Now I forgot what I was saying. I was so, what was I talking about? 45:52 SM: I am not even sure now. Maybe I will just go to the next question. 45:57 HJ: Sure. 45:58 SM: Okay. This is just again, I know we are not going to talk about specifically about the Boomers but just from that one line you sent me on the email again. If you were ̶ Just your general thoughts on the Boomer generation. What, what were their good qualities or bad qualities in your mind, from afar? 46:21 HJ: Um, well, you know, it is funny because all of those kids as I, I thought of them, and I never thought of them as Boomers I mean, we did not even we did not use that word then. I thought, the ones that I knew and who hung around my neighborhood and everything, were hippy. And, and that was how I saw them. I appreciated a lot of their impulses. That was what I appreciated, were their impulses. They had certain ideas: back to the land, nonmaterialistic culture, things like that. I appreciated all of that. However, they seemed to lack the kind of, I do not think 'political will' is what I really mean here, but they seemed this kind of laid back on, you know, 'let us go get stoned' sort of thing and that was not what we were about. We were about hard work and making our, you know making the changes that we wanted known through, were not only political protests, but through writing. And so I saw a lot them as, a lot of them were, aimless at first. But, you know, then throughout I think the (19)70s people had to shape up. But at first, they seemed, I do not know what they were living on, you know. Whatever they were living on, they might have been drifting? I just, you know, there were a lot, I because of my position I saw them a lot of the time as spoiled little white kids who could do whatever they wanted, because they did not have a hardscrabble existence. They could straighten themselves up and put on a jacket and tie and go work in an office when they wanted to. I felt that there was some, a little bit of a nonseriousness about them. But then, I am sure things changed. And do not forget, as you know, I have to keep reminding you, I was off in my own little world. 49:05 SM: Yes. 49:05 HJ: Kind of trying to figure out how to get through each month. 49:11 SM: A lot of the hippies went into the communes. What were your thoughts on the communal life that many of them participated in? 49:20 HJ: Well, if you look at the history of it, they did not really they did not succeed in a lot of ways, because they had forgotten to take into account the fact of human feelings; of jealousies and the need for privacy and, we were not all meant for a communal existence. Some of them, some of us are lone wolves. You know, I think you have to applaud a lot of what they, a lot of what they did. But you know, communal, well, there are still a few communes that are running but communes very often degenerate into cults. And I have seen and read the effect of cults on people. I have had students who had formerly been in cults and you know, directionless people looking for direction are going to look for a leader and sometimes the leader is less than trustworthy, were exploited. 50:41 SM: One of the one of the things about I always looked at where people genuine when they did things and obviously, I want to come in and if you felt the Beat writers were genuine in their writing. And also when you look at the generation of followed them, the Boomers, 15 percent of the people that were in that generation of seventy to seventy-five million really participated, though the rest of them did not. But always, the question that I have to ask myself to who experienced it, how genuine were most of them in in their concerns? Or you know - so basically, could you comment on how genuine the Beats were in their writing? Because obviously, they were intellectually gifted. They were deep thinkers. But the term genuine is something that is a very important quality in people. And so your comments on both the Beats of the (19)50s and the ones that continue writing today, plus the Boomers and their activism during that (19)60s and (19)70s. 51:54 HJ: Regarding genuine, you know, you certainly are genuine when you are putting yourself up for criticism and castigation because do not forget when the Beats were first published that they began to write. I mean, I worked, I ran the Partisan Review office at that time and the general response from the literary establishment was, oh, this is ridiculous. You know. This is just, you know, they just dismissed them. So if you are the genuine article and you believe in what you have to say, you are just going to say, okay, that is the way they feel and I will just continue to go on. I think that the fact that they were genuine is evidenced by the fact that they have lasted so long and are in now the tannin. You know? Now kids who take freshmen "Comp." are reading On the Road. So, there you go! Talk about the cannons they have been admitted. But had they not spoken from their heart, who would have bothered you know? They would have faded away. 53:19 SM: Well, were the anti-war, civil rights, women's movement, gay and lesbian, where would you place them in there? 53:28 HJ: Certainly somebody like Adrienne Rich, certainly. Yeah. You know, like the other people who really are associated with the beginnings of the feminist movement all of a sudden, I am blanking on their names. Who I do I mean? They had to! Of course they were genuine! Otherwise, they wouldn't have been considered so, over and over and over by so many different generations tracing the history of the feminist movement. And you know, genuineness is the fact that Allen spoke openly of homosexuality let a lot of people come out of the closet. The fact that the feminist movement led women to make demands of their own, do not forget, we were also we were making something like fifty-five cents on the dollar compared to men or sixty-five? I have forgotten. A very, very low salary. And you never saw women lawyers, you never saw, we hardly had any women doctors. The whole world has changed a great deal in terms of what we accept the ability of women to do! So, yeah, they were genuine. But as far as the writers that I think of they are more polemicists than artists in that sense. The writing is to formulate a political agenda rather than to create art, and that is a bit of a [inaudible] I think. 55:19 SM: One of the important questions I have asked all of my guests and this just applies to everyone here and you probably saw this on the list, it was number eleven. The concept of healing. I want to - I took a group of students, to see former senator Edmund Muskie before he died when I was working at the university and it was one of our leadership on the road programs. And I took fourteen students with me, we got into the room, we were taping we were talking about the (19)68 convention and all the divisions in America the anti-war movement, and of course he was he had long since retired and actually he was not feeling very well either he had just come out of the hospital. And I asked the question, I said, about healing and this is the ̶ I am going to just read it here: Do you feel Boomers and I guess I will say the people of the (19)50s too. Do you feel Boomers are still having problems with healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth and their growing up years? The division between black and white. Divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it. Division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. What role did the Wall play in healing these divisions in Washington? Do you feel that the Boomer generation will go to it is grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has thirty-five years made that statement "Time heals all wounds," a truth? I bring this up and Senator Muskie when I asked him a question specifically about the divisions in America in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s and (19)80s. He did not even respond for about a minute. And then he looked up at us and said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." 57:06 HJ: Yes. 57:06 SM: And just your thoughts? To me healing, I have worked with a lot of veterans, I have worked with a lot of people that were involved with the (19)60s and they still have issues about you know, what happened then. And a lot of times people do not come together that are opposing sides. Your thoughts on this concept? Do we have a problem with healing in this nation? 57:29 HJ: Well, I think Senator Muskie was right, you know, the Civil War. But, then yeah, I mean, we keep going slowly toward it and then drawing away and slowly toward it and drawing away. It has so many little subtexts and so many ramifications. The war in Vietnam, of course, divided people. You know, any war. I am just thinking about the Gulf War, the war in Iraq. All the people who marched all over the world. All the people who marched here and try to keep it from happening. There are people, who still live with the idea that, that this is America. We are the strongest nation, we control. Everything we do is correct. And if you criticize, you are not patriotic. And then, of course, there is the other side who feel free to change direction. I think that was what everybody was hoping. Healing was what everybody was hoping for when they elected Barack. And we see it is hard. It is hard to do, but oh you know, we have to give it – we are a young country, with a lot of different immigrant groups who have not yet become an American thoroughly. We are still group identified. We play identity politics all the time. And that is a result also of that, push for inclusion in the universities. You know, everybody talks about that now, how nobody learns the same thing anymore and we are all half educated and half-assed. But if we live long enough and we do not destroy each other, if we can still manage to go to the polls and vote and not have this same sorts of guys who won the election then we can. You know, democracy is a very messy, messy thing. And generations change. You can see it in families, children think differently from their parents. 1:00:11 SM: Can you speak again more clearly into the phone? 1:00:15 HJ: Yeah, I am sorry. I got up, I moved! [laughs] That was what happened, okay? America is a young country and we are a young people. And eventually the whole country will look the way New York looks now, which is everybody is a different, slightly different color when you look at somebody. I sometimes have no idea when I encounter students and little children. I do not know. I cannot imagine what their parenthood is and why would you want to know? So we still have a ways to go. You know, Europeans who now call themselves Europeans, they have hundreds and hundreds of years behind them. And here we are, you know, we just dumped ourselves on the Indians not too long ago. [laughs] 1:01:18 SM: This business of healing and other one is the issue of trust. And I say this even to the Beat writers of the (19)50s. And, and then also to the Boomer generation, and the, the issue of trust because there was a lot of things in our lives when we were young and as we were growing up that we look at authority figures that really turn young people off. And the Boomers saw so many of them through Eisenhower and Kennedy and Johnson and Nixon and even Ronald Reagan in later years. I speak of the Iran Contra with Kennedy and what was really going on Vietnam, Johnson with a Gulf of Tonkin. Eisenhower lied about the U2 incident. And the Boomers really did not trust anybody in authority, whether it was a minister, a rabbi, a priest, a university president, a corporate leader. We did not trust anybody. The question I am asking you, and I, you know, be a great question also, while the Beats were in a room too, as they get as they grew up. I remember a psychology professor telling me this in PSYC101 at my university, Binghamton University. I can remember him saying this in our in our PSYC101 class that if you cannot trust somebody, and if you have no sense of trust, then you yourself will not be a success in life. And that always stuck to me and I remember that class and then as I got older. So what I am getting at is that you know, not having it - do we have an issue of trust in this country? And had the writings of the Beats and the activism of the Boomers of the (19)60s and (19)70s and hopefully in their lives, helped? What do they trust after all of their efforts? 1:03:25 HJ: Well, if you want blind trust it is one thing. If you add a trust with keeping your eye on, on what people are doing, I think that is a different thing. But we've learned to withhold our immediate sense of trust because we've been disappointed, you know, here, look at the most recent - look at the look at the war in Iraq! Who were we trusting? Who did? Did we question the evidence that was manufactured about weapons of mass destruction, etcetera, etcetera? And if you; we've learned over and over again, that people lie. That people in authority will lie sometimes to keep their own interest or what they believe to be right with, there is you know, the fact that there was no open discussion of well, there was open discussion, there was protests as you know, more recently with Bush and then he went ahead and did what he wanted to do. But why? Why would one? Why would one give them what I am thinking? I do not agree with your professor. If you do not trust anyone. Let me hedge that a little bit. 1:05:08 SM: Make sure you speak closer to that mike. 1:05:10 HJ: Oh, yeah, it is my phone. You know, sorry. I think that personal trust in one's daily interactions with people is a good thing to have. One should be open to the hope that one another instead of you having an exchange with someone, it will be built on mutual trust and respect. But we have to learn politically to cast a wary eye and I think that is a very good thing. That is what democracy is. You know, we are participating I think, when we criticize. 1:06:00 SM: Just a general question. Why do you think the Vietnam War ended? 1:06:06 HJ: Huh. 1:06:06 SM: What was the ̶ if they were to pinpoint one thing? Why did it end? 1:06:11 HJ: You know, McNamara died yesterday. I heard that on the radio this morning. 1:06:17 SM: I did not know that! 1:06:18 HJ: Yeah, he died. So they were talking a little bit about that. Why do I think it ended? Well, it was, you know, everybody - it was understood that it was a lost cause! That this was, well, was not our first war of imperialism, you know, if you think of the Spanish American War. That was also. But I think we learned what the French had learned and what the British had learned. There was so much protest here that I think that public officials had to understand and take into account the will of the people finally, finally. But, you know, it was a whole lot of different facts. 1:07:21 SM: Is it is it realistic, you know, the Wall in Washington and I do not know if you visited it, but it is, it is unbelievable. It was done an awful lot to heal veterans and their families. But also a lot of vets will not go there because it brings back sad memories but your thoughts on him? I, me, Steve McKiernan, the writer of this book, and the person who puts these questions together, am I kind of asking an almost impossible question regarding the fact of healing that, that one day we will not do what they did in the Civil War, which they never did heal, but that one day, people who are against the war in Vietnam and those who were for the war will hug each other? 1:08:09 HJ: They are all going to be dead Steve. [laughs] So it is not going to make one bit of difference. Right now we are focusing on what is going on over in the Middle East. And that has become, you know, it is not that we have a limited attention span. It is just that will have to that will take the war in Vietnam will remain a sticky issue and it can be argued by historians from then on and but the Boomers will go to their graves debating that. I think. Because they believe so firmly in, each in his own way. There was no win and there was no loss. So there were no winners and losers there. 1:09:11 SM: It is amazing at Gettysburg this past weekend, one of the park rangers; retired, his son, who serves in Iraq and I asked him point blank about the Wall and he went into a rage about the anti-war protesters and boy, he said, if he the chance, he'd, "put them up against a wall and shoot him!" 1:09:29 HJ: Yeah, right. 1:09:30 SM: So that the rage is still in some people. So, 1:09:34 HJ: You know, how old was this park ranger? 1:09:36 SM: Oh, he was sixty or sixty-one he was not a park ranger. He was a volunteer. 1:09:41 HJ: Okay. All right. Yeah. But, you know, he is still fighting the Civil War too, right? 1:09:47 SM: Yes. [laughter] 1:09:52 HJ: You know and the Civil War is not going to be over until the New South truly becomes the New South. You know, every time I go down south with my family, especially, I am always aware that the New South is just the Old South in a new dress. 1:10:11 SM: Hmm. 1:10:12 HJ: You know, many of the attitudes have not changed. You know, when I went to college in Virginia, it was in my sociology class, it was "our people," and when I asked, "What do you mean our people?" Well, it was "our Negroes." You know, and I was just shocked and offended. 1:10:32 SM: Oh my gosh. 1:10:33 HJ: that people my age, which was, you know, seventeen years old and eighteen years old, we were fighting the Civil War again, one hundred years later. So people will absorb what they learn from their families and what they are on in school. But I think right now, there is a whole generation of young people who are very willing to open their mouths. And Vietnam means nothing to them at all. What they are concerned about is what is happening now. And one of the differences is that the wars being fought by a volunteer army of generally poor people. Mostly poor guys from, from all over America who, liked the idea of picking up a gun and going to shoot people who wear head wraps. The same way there were those people who wanted to go in Vietnam and shoot at the "Gooks" or whatever they called them. But there is, but there is no draft. Were there a draft, boy that would be a whole different story? So, we'll see. I do not know, I mean, nobody knows what the future holds. 1:12:02 SM: Kind of a follow up to that, one of the things when you think about you in the in all the Beat writers is you would write and you are not afraid to go it alone. That you go it alone and then pay a price for it and one of the things we try to instill in college students when they become first year then by the time they graduate is the concept of self-esteem. Where they are comfortable with who they are, what they stand for, and what they believe in and they kind of develop a concept of integrity, which I believe the Beats have, and certainly the people that were genuine and the anti-war movement had. Do you feel? Do you sense this too? About how important it is that the Beats can really send a message to today's college students? Because of that concept of going at it alone? Because you have to have a sense of self-esteem to, to speak up and to believe in something and stand on your own two feet. 1:13:01 HJ: The kids I teach are far more vocal but these days, I am teaching graduate students. But I have taught undergraduates in the last couple of years and, and it is true that I am in New York, and I get really smart students at the New School but, I think there are pretty smart students everywhere. And they also they write a lot. Look at that! They write emails. They write all over Facebook. They do this, that. They are always expressing themselves, whether it is important or whether it is not important. But they have the idea of free expression, and that is a great entitlement. That is a very different thing. And in the course of expressing themselves, they are figuring out what they think. So that I think is a very, very good thing. And if I am me I have respect for, they are a little concerned about how they are going to support themselves, given the economy. There is no longer any sense that oh, well, I will just go get a job and stay with it then and then I will do my art on the side or whatever. Nothing like that! Their position is a little more open and scary. But they have to rely on themselves. Also, something we have not mentioned, which has to do with pop psychology. When I went to college, psychology and psychiatry and related professions, were very young. Not everybody went to be psychoanalyzed. Only a few intellectuals. You know, you did not have TV shows that explored people's motives and this and that and the other thing. There were not self-help books. The whole idea of self-correction was; hadn't even yet been developed. So there is a very different zeitgeist in that respect. That people think of their inner lives and, and their desires and are more willing to express them than before because that is socially acceptable. 1:15:36 SM: One thing, Hettie, though, is when you - willingness to express and willingness to act. And there is a big difference. I know today's college students are really into volunteerism. Probably 90 to 95 percent of college students are volunteering and helping people in a variety of ways. But when you define volunteerism, and you separate it from activism. Activism is twenty-four seven, seven days a week and three hundred and sixty-five days a year. Whereas volunteerism is a specific time you go and do things and even though it is part of activism, it is not the way one lives one's life. And my question to you is, the impact that Boomers have had that is, they are now in their late (19)50s and to mid (19)60s, or heading toward mid (19)60s is that activism is the willingness to speak but also the willingness to act. And, and I have gotten a sense, this is just, just me, that universities today are afraid of the term activism, and they will constantly talk about volunteerism. Activism reminds them of an era when students protested whether it be in the late (19)30s or in the 1960s and it connotes disruption of the university, a challenge to authority again, and they are fearful of it. And um, I'd like your thoughts on that if you are teaching college students, and also the fact that I am sensing that a lot of college students, aren't activists, they are volunteers. 1:17:15 HJ: Well, you know, I think you are right, because they, all of those who have, you know, take a look at the election. All the volunteers, the student volunteers for the election, they saw the electoral process as an act for which they have something they could do volunteer, no matter what you call it, that could actually have a result within the democratic process. And I, you know, that was the first time I have seen that and it was to be applauded. Now, you know, like, one of one of the things that you learn if you study [inaudible] and people like that. It is like when people are hungry, you cannot expect them to be active politically, they are looking for something to eat. 1:18:16 SM: Mmm. 1:18:17 HJ: And a lot of these college students today are looking for something to eat. They are not as you know, they are not as confident that daddy and mommy will support them. And they are looking around rather warily. But they believe in participatory democracy. They believe in helping. But I do not think they have reached that stage although, ho! ho! Ho! If you want to look for one example, look at what a few was last month when the students at the New School took over a building. 1:19:02 SM: I did not know that. 1:19:03 HJ: You did not know that. 1:19:04 SM: No, I did not. 1:19:05 HJ: Well you better read up on it! Okay. Everybody wanted Bob Perry, the President, of the New School to resign. And guess what? After enough foment, he resigned. 1:19:18 SM: What was it over? 1:19:19 HJ: What? 1:19:19 SM: What was the issue? 1:19:21 HJ: The issue was the management of the university and his taking control and appointing himself not only the president, but provost and pre-Provost as with under his tenure. 1:19:34 SM: Wow. 1:19:36 HJ: There were firings of professors who'd worked in various departments or a long period of time. I was a couple of years ago, there was a lot of reorganization at the university but I had been teaching a class on the beats at the invitation of the person who was the head of the writing program at the undergraduate school, Lange. 1:19:59 SM: Uh huh 1:19:59 HJ: And he said that nobody needed to study the Beats anymore. So he took away my class. 1:20:06 SM: Unbelievable. 1:20:07 HJ: So I was fired for, you know, somebody I know would been working at the New School in various departments for ten years was fired. You know, things like that. Anyway, there was general dissatisfaction and the students, they figured well, you better, you know, you can look that up and see. 1:20:17 SM: I definitely will. I am proud of the students! 1:20:32 HJ: They were on the roof with masks on and everything. 1:20:35 SM: Okay. 1:20:37 HJ: [laughs] 1:20:37 SM: Well, that is, well, that is, that is good! 1:20:42 HJ: Yeah. 1:20:43 SM: Because I have always felt that students need to be empowered and feel that they are. 1:20:48 HJ: Yeah, well, you know, like, as I said, this is New York, and we get a lot of people here who have come here, specifically to make a big fuss, make a lot of noise and to do art and whatever and they are doing it. 1:21:07 SM: If there was one event, if, if we had a room of five hundred Boomers. And if there was one event that had the greatest impact on their life when they were young, and I mean, between the time they were born and say, thirty, what would that event be? 1:21:26 HJ: Gee, you know, I do not know, if you have to give me a date and one event? 1:21:35 SM: After 1960. 1:21:37 HJ: In the (19)60s? 1:21:39 SM: It would be mostly ̶̶ because Boomers did not go to seventh grade until they were in the 1960s. So it would have to be when they were in high school or college or early adulthood. 1:21:53 HJ: Well, you know certainly the constriction for the Vietnam War. When everyone had to register for the draft. Now and the war and it was revealed early on as a useless, colonialist war. That it seems to me what has to be the point because that really caused the most foment. 1:22:23 SM: Right. 1:22:24 HJ: You know, I guess for my generation would have been more the McCarthy era, but it has to be the war the war was the biggest thing. The Vietnam War was. 1:22:38 SM: If you could just respond just a quick thoughts on these things. What just your quick thoughts: Kent State and Jackson State? 1:22:48 HJ: Oh, Kent State got a lot of notice because of the killings, because of the photography, because at that point, TV news could disseminate information easily. But Jackson State, you see there you go! Jack State demonstrates how, again, the lives of young white people were valued more than the lives of young black people. 1:23:22 SM: Hmm. 1:23:23 HJ: And that is the way that you know, this is the world. This is the world in which I was bringing up black children. So you can understand why my emphasis has more to do with that issue, the civil rights issue, than anything else. 1:23:45 SM: How about Watergate? 1:23:48 HJ: Oh, well, Watergate, you know. None of us liked Nixon anyway, but that exposure you know! What year was Watergate again? 1:24:03 SM: (19)72, (19)73, (19)74. 1:24:08 HJ: Right. Well, it was exposing that kind of terrible lying and shenanigans that you would never expect from quote your word "authority." And it made us disrespect the elected political figure. 1:24:35 SM: Woodstock. 1:24:35 HJ: Woodstock? Oh, you know, Woodstock. Woodstock was charming and all people were covered with mud and everything it was so cute. I had to look upon it from afar and think is not it wonderful that they had all the time to go listen to music. 1:24:55 SM: How about the term "counterculture" which they think is the expansion of the Beat Generation. Yeah, 1:25:02 HJ: Yeah. You know, counterculture. It is all part of the culture from this removes. The counterculture has consumed the other culture although we still read a Great Gatsby, F. Scott Fitzgerald is quoted a lot these days. It will all be one culture eventually. I was thinking the other day about there is a guy on the radio on WNYC who has a program called the American Songbook. And I have a son-in-law who's a musician and we were talking on the fourth about music and of course, we were talking about Michael Jackson and I thought well you know the American Songbook; one of these days, they will figure out that it has to include Carole King, and has to include all those wonderful you know, "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay Wasting Time." You know, yeah, that is America and that is what, that is what, a lot of the rest of the world sees as American culture, so whether it is counter or not, it was counter then but it is not counter no more. 1:26:19 SM: How about the term "1968?" That was a pretty rough year. 1:26:25 HJ: Yeah, it was a pretty rough year, but, um, you know, it was personally harder for me than just about anything else. So, I do not know that I can quantify it. 1:26:39 SM: If you look in the while, you know, more than anybody, they have the beatniks whenever you know, especially in the (19)50s when I was a kid and I am sure a lot of Boomers this way they look they watched Dobie Gillis and of course Maynard G. Krebs. He was the beatnik and of course everybody loves Sandra D. is beautiful white girlfriend. But the beatniks became the hippies of the (19)60s then you had the yippies which was the extreme. What are your thoughts on the hippies and the yippies? 1:27:11 HJ: You know, everybody likes a name for something or other. The hippies, you know it was very cute. "Beatniks" also that that is something that Herbert (Huncke) made up after the beats had achieved some kind of note ̶ you know, it was right after Sputnik went up and that "N-I-K" is a Russian diminutive. I never thought us beatnik but people use it interchangeably with the Beats and I have to correct them all the time although sometimes I am too lazy to do that. But, you know, hippies, oh hippies wore flowers and smelled like patchouli and, you know, asked for spare change on the street and went barefoot and you know, were very sweet and very young and smoked a lot of dope. 1:28:14 SM: [laughs] 1:28:14 HJ: A very, very small group of you know, again using your word "activists", but they really did not have very much effect. 1:28:28 SM: Your thoughts on the students for. 1:28:30 HJ: Abbie Hoffman. 1:28:31 SM: Jerry Rubins. 1:28:33 HJ: Jerry ̶ yeah, but if you know if you think of the trouble in Chicago. 1:28:44 SM: Yes. 1:28:45 HJ: That was 1960 - what year? 1:28:48 SM: That was 1968. 1:28:50 HJ: Yeah, that was 1968. 1:28:51 SM: It was after the "Chicago Eight" when Bobby Seale was chained and that was the "Chicago Seven" because he wouldn't stop speaking. 1:29:01 HJ: But you see, that kind of thing. 1:29:04 SM: The SDS, the Students for a Democratic Society and The Weathermen and the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, those groups. 1:29:13 HJ: Yeah, well, you know, I am personally acquainted with people who were in the Weather Underground, and they, they, if you talk about activism, they felt that what they were doing was just. But they did not realize, you know, they were naive. They were naive. They had no backing, they were just small underground groups of people and, you know, I am personally acquainted with some people who served time and many years in prison and some who still are in prison for those actions and they regret them. Because they were first acts that, you know, brought all of the all of the armor of the state against them as well as public opinion. You have to be ready if you are going to conduct guerilla warfare you have got to go up into the mountains and get a lot of folks around you, you can do it with ten people. I do not believe. 1:30:30 SM: When the best history books are written, and normally it is fifty years after an era, so when we are talking about the Beats, actually the best ones, are probably being written right now or in the coming years. And certainly the same thing is going to happen about the Boomer generation there has been so much written about the war and all the activisms be it right now and down the road are going to be the best books. What do you think? The, like, say one hundred years from now when students are in school, and they are reading about the (19)50s and the (19)60s and the (19)70s. How important were the Beats be in those history books, the Beat writers, and, and how important with the Boomers or the (19)60s and (19)70s be in those history books? 1:31:21 HJ: Well, I think, given the fact that we still read, Edgar Allan Poe, and we still read, oh, those wonderful Abigail Adams letters, it is possible that people will still be reading the Beats for their literary interest. But not but as I said, you know, I do not think much. I do not know what exactly people will be reading of the Boomer generation because that, you know, they did not have very much of an effect on me. So maybe there'll be maybe people will still be studying the history of the feminist movement. You know, when I was young, I used to be able to predict the future. And now that I am pretty old, I do not exactly know. Technology will change very many things. Who knows whether we'll, I hope will be reading. I do not know that we'll be reading books. If we cannot figure out some way to replace all the oil that is in the ground. We are not going to be able to have this wonderful internet anymore. So we got to figure out alternative energies. But you know, you cannot imagine. Could you imagine if you lived in 1850, the motor car? [laughs] 1:32:59 SM: My golly! Yeah, you are right in that, you know, the Boomers oftentimes, I do not know if this is the naiveté or whatever they always think they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to end racism, sexism, end all war. And that is not every member of the generation, but certainly a lot of them that were involved in activism. What, what kind of, is that just youthful thinking? Or is there a belief that one day we can do that? 1:33:27 HJ: At least their desire was in the right place. They wanted to, they wanted to heal. You know, going back to our first question. They saw what was wrong and what needed to be remedied. And being the problem is not, it is not addressing the problem, but it is not curing the problem. Maybe - 1:33:57 SM: There you go. OK? I am ready. Still there? 1:34:04 HJ: Well, I am saying that their last, they are seeing all those problems and wanting to remedy them doesn't have any bearing on whether they were able to. But, you know, we had the Voting Rights Act, we had the Equal Opportunity Employment Act, we had all different kinds of governmental decisions that were based on popular desires. If they were not, generally they were, yes, some quarters, they were imposed but we were still challenging all these, these, these laws and everything and it was still, as I said, we were young country and we were still fighting and that democracy is messy. 1:34:59 SM: I agree. One of the novels that was written in the early (19)70s. I forget the gentleman who wrote it, he only wrote three, he wrote a book called, "I think, therefore I am." And for me, and you can comment on this, I would hope that when people are reading books one hundred years from now that they will look at the Beats and some of the activism of the (19)60s and the issues that people were involved with, is that people can challenge authority, when for justice and equality and things that are right. Dr. King said oftentimes that, you know, he was not about breaking laws, but if laws were unjust, you have to protest against those laws. And I hope forever young people will look at this era because of the examples that these people raised that they think therefore they are, and they stand for something. Just your thoughts on that. 1:35:59 HJ: Well that is from Descartes, 'je pense' [I think in French] they took the translation from French. I think, therefore I am. Well, of course, I have you know, the idea that one can participate in democracy implies a basic understanding that that is how democracy works. And that one can, in concert with others affect change. And that is what that is what protests meant. You know resulted in sometimes. Or they publicize the opinions that people share. So I think it is quite wonderful. I think we've gone through, through electronic means to be able to do what the Greeks thought they were doing, although of course, yes, yes, they had slaves but participatory democracy. You know, it is a great, great invention. And oh, I hope it will last. 1:37:11 SM: Yeah, that was the SDS manifesto too. Yeah, I know that Harold Brown wrote a book in the early (19)70s, called "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World." And, and so that was the kind of things that would be written at that particular time. My last question that centers on the, you know, the beats were often linked to San Francisco, a lot of the poets. San Francisco and New York. San Francisco and New York. And you look at one of the major happenings of the (19)60s, which was the summer of love and (19)67 in San Francisco and of course, Allen Ginsburg was part of that. But so you see these constant links between the beats and the boomers, particularly those that may be connected to the counterculture or activists dealing with a lot of issues. Your thoughts on some why San Francisco? Why New York? They were the two centers and youth obviously went to San Francisco in that (19)67: Summer of Love. 1:38:14 HJ: Well, you know, those are the two places that had established our, our colonies, if you want to call them colonies or whatever. Our scenes, our world, both coasts like that. You did not care about Chicago art, particularly nor did you hear about Dallas, Texas art or you know, or Knoxville, Tennessee, maybe, maybe the Grand Ole Opry. But those were places where one could live a bohemian life and it had thriving poetry scenes and that was that was why Allen was out there in the first place. That is why "Howl" was published there. Ferlinghetti had settled there, you know, he is from Westchester County, New York. And then of course, New York. New York was always thought of as, heaven help me, the cultural capital of the United States. People will disagree, I suppose. But even so, it remains that way. And I think all of us just figured those were the two places to be. I do not think there is any, any particular reason. Except that the swimming is good. 1:39:37 SM: Yeah. Well, I am not going to ask you to respond to all these names, because I am, you know, there is there are a lot of personalities of the (19)60s if you want to, but I think you are okay. Is there any question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask that you'd like to respond for a final comment? 1:39:59 HJ: No. Not, not really and, you know, as I told you, my perspective on the whole thing is from somebody who was always off trying to struggle through her life and invent myself. And, you know, talk about feeling trying to make a place in the world for the races. I suppose to interact, come together if they would. And so, that is what I am still doing, I suppose. 1:40:41 SM: As I conclude the interview, and I will go back to that very first question of Marilyn Young making the comment that the (19)60s began with the Beats. Could you make a final comment on why she felt that way? And you, I think, agreed. Why were the beats so important and as the precursor to the (19)60s. 1:41:01 HJ: Because we were the first people to open her mouths. (Laughs.) Against, everything that we saw that was wrong. But do not forget along with the beat there were, I keep plugging the painters and the musicians but you know, there was Tom Leherer who wrote "Little boxes, and they are all made out of ticky tacky," you know that song? *"Little Boxes" was written and composed by Malvina Reynolds in 1962, and was made popular in 1963 by Pete Seeger. 1:41:28 SM: Right. 1:41:28 HJ: Yeah, you know, everyone was beginning to see that the instructions that were given after the war, which did not end really, until (19)46. And then there was, you know, a period of people coming home and the (19)50s, but the ideas of go forth and multiply and make a lot of money and shut up, was not working anymore, because people were suffering under it. Under that load of silence and the Cold War so yeah, that is where it began, you know. Especially with Allen and Jack so we have to applaud the both and I hope they are watching. 1:42:10 SM: I am sure they are and then when you look at the musicians, people, the one person that comes to mind and that is just me is Nat King Cole. I just think he was an unbelievable person. They had him on television last night in a retrospective. He died in (19)65. But he was such a, he was the first African American to have his own TV show. So would he be included in some of these musicians and artists you are talking about? 1:42:38 HJ: Well, you know, I am just talking about not, not necessarily exposure, but style. And the inclusion of say, Jazz, not just as not popular music for entertainment but as, as a great American art form. So that has to do with studying women's history. You know, it is all connected with this push for inclusion, and for proper estimation, and quality above all, talk about counterculture of inclusion in American culture. A void, a voice, in American culture. 1:43:29 SM: What musicians in the (19)60s do you think had that feeling? 1:43:33 HJ: No, well say musicians in general. Look at Bob Dylan. You know, all the blues musicians who influenced him and were. Oh what about Aretha Franklin? You know all these people. Aretha saying "You better think, think about what you what you are trying to do to me." You know, all that. Oh, Michael Jackson. (Laughs.) there has been a lot of stuff about Michael Jackson and some people are very tired of it. But, you know, he was such an influence on my kids and you know. 1:44:17 SM: Oh yeah, I agree. 1:44:20 HJ: And, you know, every when I had the windows open all weekend, cars would go by with their radio blasting. Michael Jackson song "You got to be starting' something." 1:44:36 SM: His memorial is tomorrow. 1:44:38 HJ: Yeah. 1:44:39 SM: So well, Hettie, thank you very much. In a couple weeks, I will be sending you a form. It is a waiver form you just sign it and it is going to be a while for you all these things transcribed, but you will see it before I ever do anything with it. And wish Susan, I mean, I wish Joyce would still do it, but she is not going to I guess so. 1:44:58 HJ: Yeah. You cannot change her mind sometimes. 1:45:01 SM: Yeah, and I sent a letter to Anne but I never heard from her so I got to put a call through out to the school. And I have sent three letters to Ed Sanders and 1:45:13 HJ: I have no idea where to find him now. 1:45:15 SM: Well, nobody can. He has moved three times. Maybe on purpose. 1:45:20 HJ: It could be. 1:45:21 SM: But Hettie, thank you very much. 1:45:24 HJ: You are welcome. 1:45:25 SM: And you have a great day. 1:45:26 HJ: You too. 1:45:27 SM: Bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Hettie Jones Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jones, Hettie ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; College teachers; Jones, Hettie--Interviews Description An account of the resource Hettie Jones is the author of 20 books but is best known for her memoir of the Beat Scene. She started the literary magazine <em>Yugen</em>, has taught writing at SUNY Purchase, Penn State, and the University of Wyoming, and is one of the faculty members in the graduate program for creative writing at The New School in New York City. She has been chair of a plethora of writing programs and has received grants to start a writing program in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Jones received her Bachelor's degree in Drama from the University of Virginia and pursued her postgraduate work at Columbia University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-07-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.131a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.131b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 105:31 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3ac09b71e98470c8beba20ed58b47237.jpg 147a1ef67b326a29bbcc90a2b61e5183 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f3cfb56f18f9ca647d33cc4a9588db9.mp3 9000e28556d66ccfa32bb4a0aeebb96f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Holly Near Date of Interview 2009-05-15 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 114:37 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Holly Near, born in Ukiah, California, is a singer, songwriter, actress, teacher, and activist. She was on various TV shows including the Mod Squad, Room 222, All in the Family, and The Partridge Family. Near is founder of an independent recording label called Redwood Records. She was recognized for her work as in social change by receiving honors from the ACLU, the National Lawyers Guild, the National Organization for Women, NARAS, Ms. Magazine and the Legends of Women's Music Award. She attended UCLA for a year, then moved to New York to study vocal music and dance.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Holly Near, born in Ukiah, California, is a singer, songwriter, actress, teacher, and activist. She was on various TV shows including <em>The Mod Squad</em>, <em>Room 222</em>, <em>All in the Family</em>, and <em>The Partridge Family</em>. Near is the founder of an independent recording label called Redwood Records. She was recognized for her work as in social change by receiving honors from the ACLU, the National Lawyers Guild, the National Organization for Women, NARAS, <em>Ms. Magazine</em> and the Legends of Women's Music Award. She attended UCLA for a year, then moved to New York to study vocal music and dance.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Anti-War Activism; Baby boom generation; Generation Gap; Nineteen sixties; Abbie Hoffman; Jerry Rubin; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Anti-War Activism; Baby boom generation; Generation Gap; Nineteen sixties; Abbie Hoffman; Jerry Rubin; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy.</span> Subject LCSH Singers; Songwriters; Actresses; Political activists--United States; Near, Holly--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Holly Near Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Near, Holly ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Singers; Songwriters; Actresses; Political activists--United States; Near, Holly--Interviews Description An account of the resource Holly Near, born in Ukiah, California, is a singer, songwriter, actress, teacher, and activist. She was on various TV shows including <em>The Mod Squad</em>, <em>Room 222</em>, <em>All in the Family</em>, and <em>The Partridge Family</em>. Near is the founder of an independent recording label called Redwood Records. She was recognized for her work as in social change by receiving honors from the ACLU, the National Lawyers Guild, the National Organization for Women, NARAS, <em>Ms. Magazine</em> and the Legends of Women's Music Award. She attended UCLA for a year, then moved to New York to study vocal music and dance. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-05-15 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.140a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.140b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 114:37 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ccc196e25ada941cd451da426940d9b0.mp3 b29c85d619adc7eedd39ff077e9c9d7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 25 July 2015 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hoshyar Kareem Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Hoshyar Kareem https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d8ff1f0462a54690b35d85b59b7256b1.jpeg e15a69bf3ff45fdca7b57a718479abdf https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ea5100a5c81b221f78b7d228b1a521fb.MP3 76cf100b497cd3f54e9a1d5ae03475f1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 17 March 2023 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Howard Means Biographical Text Howard Means, a native of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, is an award winning author, editor and collaborator. He is the author/co author of several books, including The 500 Year Delta; The Visionary's Handbook; Colin Powell: A Biography; The Banana Sculptor, the Purple Lady, and the All-Night Swimmer; and the novel C.S.A. Means now lives in rural Virginia with his wife. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:35:12 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Kent state; Students, Nixon, Guardsmen, Anti-war movement, Sixties; Book, War, Talk, Campus, Shootings, Students, Activisim, People. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Howard Means Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 17 March 2023 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:02 All right, can you hear me? Yep. All right, on speakerphone. Today's interview is with Howard Means author of 67 Shots: Kent State and the End of American Innocence. Howard, thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview with me. And the first question I want to ask you is about your background. Your growing up years where you grew up, your family background, your schooling background, how you got into journalism and writing as a career. HM: 00:36 Sure-sure. Glad to tell you all that. Born and raised in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, right in the middle of Amish country, not Amish by background, but my mother's family had been in Lancaster since the early 1800s. Went to public schools there, JP McCaskey High School I am a proud graduate of 1962 to give you some sense of how old I am. SM: 00:59 Mm-Hmm. HM: 01:00 Went from there to University of Virginia, and state through Virginia for a Master's I was a Ford Foundation program that had identified a critical shortage of PhDs in the humanities in the late (19)60s. SM: 01:16 Hmm. HM: 01:16 And so they gave us it was it was a hurry up thing. You get a master's in a year and then you rush out and get your doctorate and we plug the gap and then of course, the Vietnam War came along. And nobody left school. A lot of people did not leave school who might have left school they stayed on for doctorates to avoid the draft. I left after my got my masters in 1967, I became a school teacher. I spent one year teaching at Deerfield Academy in Massachusetts, and then seven years at St. Albans school in Washington, DC, part of the National Cathedral schools. There are three schools in the grounds the national-national cathedral is at all the all-boys school. And it was a very interesting time to be there because there were a lot of you know, there was a one of the Bush sons was there more Percy son was there. Kim Agnew was blinded a girl school across the way. SM: 01:16 Hmm. HM: 01:19 National Cathedral School, HR Bob Halderman’s son Hank was in my class. So it was a school that had you heavily involved in events of the time [inaudible] right. And I was on the well, I will come back to that a second- went from there; I did that until 1975. Then I segwayed into journalism because I could not figure out how to make a living as a school teacher. My wife was also a school teacher and teaching in Washington DC, teaching in that in a housing market like that gave you absolutely no chance of buying housing anywhere nearby. So I segwayed into journalism. spent a couple years with the Chronicle of Higher Education. spent time with Washingtonian Magazine in two [inaudible] interrupted by eight years, seven years with the Orlando Sentinel newspaper, where I was something called critic at large and an op ed columnist. And I wrote op eds I wrote, my God, I wrote about a million words worth in seven years, three a week. You had to have evergreens in the bank when you went on vacation. And then I ran out of opinions. So I accepted the magazine journalism, and did that until I started, I started in 1992. Somebody contacted me asked me if I wanted to do a biography of this young man who was making a great name for himself in the first Gulf War, Colin Powell. And I said, Sure, I would love to do that. And Colin Powell was not going to talk to me, reasonably enough. Why should he talk to punk like me? But I had a we knew some people and we knew somebody in common. And I just interviewed I think I interviewed 125 people who knew him. SM: 04:07 Wow. HM: 04:08 And a lot of them being good military people would call and report that, that they talked to me. So finally, he called my friend a guy named Ken Edelman and said, you can tell the son of a bitch, he has got me surrounded, I will talk to him. [laughter] And I did and we had a great time, I got to talk to Alma, his wife. And it was sad, And the book, the book did quite well, I was very happy with it. And then so from there started segwaying into doing my own books, over the course of and I have been self-employed since 2000. And I have written a bunch of books during those 20 years since- I let me see 20 no, I have to say 30, 30 here, [inaudible] book. And so I have just been a freelance book person for the last 25 years or so. SM: 05:00 How do you pick the subject for your books? That leads me right into the rest of part of this question is, why did you pick a book on Ken State and in the title? Why did you pick Kent State in the End of American Innocence? HM: 05:13 Well, I will tell you subtitles are hard to come up with. So I will break that down in a couple of different ways. But basically, what-what-what captures my interest? The just- books are books are hard things to write. They take a lot of time, they take low energy, and it has to be something that really grabs me and fascinates me. And I have been lucky to find subjects that have done that. The one-one of the more recent ones, the one before Kent State was an adult market biography of Johnny Appleseed, John Chapman. SM: 05:56 Mm-Hmm. HM: 05:57 I have always been interested in who the real John Appleseed John Johnny Appleseed was, and how myth, I got very interested in how people get trapped in their own myths. And events get trapped in the myths that build up around them. And I think that is part of why I was interested in Kent State too there was sort of the sort of, you know, for the people who were there for people like Alan Canfora and so on. There is, there is one explanation and that explanation is everything. The guard was all wrong, the students role right. And that is, that is too simplified for people on the other side, you know, the students deserve what they got, etc., etc. And it is so much more nuanced a story than that. And so, I would like trying to I like going into the nuances and trying to get behind the miss. The book I did before Johnny Appleseed was a book about Andrew Johnson, that called the Avenger Takes His Place, non-malign from Melville poem after Abraham Lincoln's assassination. SM: 06:33 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. HM: 06:38 And a lot of a lot of myths accrued around Johnson. Johnson is not a likable person. He is an unsuccessful president. But-but they sort of 45 days after Lincoln's death before Johnson announced the terms of peace, were a fascinating time in American history where things could have gone in any one of a number of directions. And that is, I think, often been way too simplified in terms of Johnson's character and how it did, but back to Kent State, in this case, just funny. I do not know what got me thinking about Kent State, it might have been, I cannot remember what it was. But I had written a poem that I was I was teaching in St. Albans school in Washington, DC, I was teaching as I said, a lot of kids are good connections to this world, into the political world. And I remember going into the faculty lounge after-after work that day, about maybe about 2:30. There was a TV on and there was the story of this shooting at Kent State University. And it just given and riveted me for all sorts of reasons. One, the kids who were shot, and the kids who shot them were many of them just a couple years older than the kids I was teaching. Two, I had been active to some extent and anti-war protests, I thought, I thought and still think that it was a war that never should have been fought for, for reasons that I think Robert McNamara is, has stated- SM: 08:30 Yeah, well, one of the things I want to ask you even before you thought about writing a book on Kent State and or- HM: 08:30 It was a we got ourselves caught in the middle of a civil war that we had no business being in the middle of it. But all that said, so I was thinking about this. I went home that that evening, I was not yet married, I was about to married about a month later. And I wrote a poem about the whole thing I always thought it was-was perfect poem I ever wrote. And so when I started thinking about this, I went hunting for the poem. And I have a collection of things upstairs in the attic above my office. And I could not find the poem. And everything else from that time was there. And somehow, I taken that poem out and put it somewhere and could not find it. And so I said to myself, "Oh, heck, I will just write a book about it." [laughter], [crosstalk] And so I just started looking into it. And so for one of a poem, I wrote this book, I think, and I have since found the poem, and it is not anywhere near as good as I remembered it. [laughter] But, but I am grateful to it because I got the book out of it. And then and then the book was just, I mean, the book was a fascinating experience for me in all sorts of ways. We can talk about that further. Go ahead. What is- what else is in your mind? SM: 09:44 Just doing research on it, when you-you said 1960 until you graduated? HM: 09:52 From high school. SM: 09:53 Yeah, you are, you are either just in the, just the-the with the silent generation or you are a boomer. It depends, you know, but- HM: 10:01 Yep. SM: 10:01 -they are all in that activist era, because the beats were in that the silent generation here, before discussing you know Kent State and the link to the (19)60s, what were the events in your young life that impacted you? HM: 10:18 Mm-Hmm. SM: 10:19 Do another one words, a lot of people I have interviewed that whole era of growing up in the (19)50s. And the (19)60s in the (19)70s was, man, it was so different. And the it is all a unique experience. What were the events that started to- HM: 10:34 Right- Yeah, sure- SM: 10:34 -shape your thinking about how you think politically how you think about social issues and justice and things. HM: 10:40 Right. I wish I could say that it was John Kennedy's assassination, but I cannot. I was certainly affected by it. But I do not remember it. I remember as being something horrible in, in the world. But it just it did not impact me anywhere near as much as Martin Luther King's assassination. And there is a story behind that. I was teaching again at Deerfield academy that year, this is what 18- I am sorry 1968, April 1968. And I was, I had a I have a dorm master party was like it was a terrible job and all sorts of ways. But I had 35 high school seniors that I was in charge of an L shaped dormitory, including one Black student named Raj McKenney in watch, did not speak a lot. He was very bright guy from Boston area, became a lawyer eventually. But I was in my room that in my [inaudible], there was there was no television, you know, there was no TV lounge or anything like that. In those days. It was pretty Spartan living accommodations. SM: 10:40 Like that? Mm-Hmm. HM: 11:13 And it was about 9:30-10 o'clock at night. I think that kids were supposed to, you know, I think there was a lights out at 10 o'clock. And it might have been 9:30-10 o'clock and his knock on my door and I go and Raj McKenney standing there; tears rolling down his face. And he said he has just heard the Martin Luther King had been assassinated, and [inaudible] on the television, on my television. And we sat there for about an hour and 20 minutes or something like that watching. He just sat there quietly and cried the entire time. And that was a powerful, powerful experience for me. And I think that politicized me more than anything else has ever happened. To me, that one event. And I have not been a particularly political person up until that moment. Although I would have to say I was also kind of a clean Gene McCarthy guy as the as the (19)68 campaign went on. That was that whole year was my political awakening, I guess. And so the way the (19)60s there was all these forces moving through the Civil Rights and the, you know, the anti-war, everything. And they were, to some extent, toxic waters, they were just flowing through society. And I think I said in the Kent State book, all of those toxic waters flowed together in Kent, Ohio, on the week of the first weekend in May 1970. And it was hard not to bluff. Another example. This is this would have been, gosh, it was a weatherman demonstrate who is was it was an anti-war demonstration in Washington. And it had to have been in 1969, I think the spring of (19)69. The night before the weathermen had been done some, you know, trashing some stores and buildings along Massachusetts Avenue. And there was a- the next day, there was a demonstration done in the mall. And I walked down to it from where I was living, so walk down Massachusetts Avenue all the way to Dupont Circle. And when you get to the circles at every error race, at every radio office circles, and there are about six radios off of all those circles in Washington. There were military jeeps with four guards and four of my soldiers , army soldiers in them, each cradling a semi-automatic and they just, you know, stared at you and you walk down. And you know, you did not want to turn your eyes one way or the other, walked on down. And all that sort of stuff was just hard to be sentient in 1968, 1969. And not to one way or another, feel the spill these currents moving through American society. Especially if you were teaching school, you were teaching kids who are picking up on this stuff. SM: 12:46 Right. Mm-Hmm. HM: 12:51 So-so that was that was a powerful force, and the (19)68 presidential campaign to some extent, too that- SM: 14:46 Oh yeah, the conventions and everything. HM: 14:49 Yes. SM: 14:50 It is interesting that we have forgotten to Kent State, Dr. McPherson, the great historian on the Civil War, and you wrote a book on Johnson and when he was a young person working on his PhD, it was during the (19)60s and in the late 50s, and (19)60s, and he kept seeing the comparisons between the civil war in the (19)60s and the terms of the divisions that were happening. What would since you say, the Civil War, and then in the (19)60s, what were the commonalities there, in those two wars? HM: 15:25 Between the, between the, between the civil war in the (19)60s? SM: 15:28 Yes. HM: 15:30 Well, that is an interesting question. It was a deeply divided America. I think it was. Actually, our own time is very much the same today. And I see a lot of this today, too. SM: 15:41 Mm-Hmm. HM: 15:41 It was it was a deeply divided America was divided by- the difference between the civil war in the (19)60s and today, I guess, is the prevalence of mass media, and how mass media shapes public opinion. SM: 15:58 Mm-Hmm. HM: 15:59 And especially now how social media save ships public opinion. I think that is a huge difference, actually. The I mean, I think in the Civil War, people were sort of locked into their, their assumptions. Because they did not have a lot of interaction. I mean, guys in Massachusetts, were not going down to the party in Fort Lauderdale, and driving through, you know, slaveholding states. SM: 16:23 Right. HM: 16:24 When I was a kid growing up going my father's from Alabama, and we went back to Alabama with some regularity to see relatives. And I became quite conscious of, of, you know, colors only fountains and colors only entrances- SM: 16:39 Mm-Hmm. HM: 16:39 -and all that sort of stuff. And this is really strange. The so you became you are more, you know, intimately connected to those divisions in American-American society. The um, hmm. I do not know. It is interesting, certainly. [sighs] And I guess, I mean, I guess it was, in some ways, I mean, the South always claimed it was an illegitimate war. SM: 16:39 Mm-Hmm. HM: 16:39 It was a war of Northern aggression. This is still called in some, some quarters down there. I happen to feel the Vietnam was sent was an- SM: 17:18 Right. Yeah. HM: 17:18 -illegitimate war. So I guess, to some extent, and God knows what-what people are, you know, I do not understand how the party of Reagan has become the party of Vladimir Putin. But that is another matter altogether. But it certainly has happened in you know, in-in the last 40 years. That and less than that, I mean, if you get to figure that George W. Bush was-was of that Reagan era, that Reagan sort of sensibility, and all of a sudden, we are, we are. So you know, these are bitterly divided times in American society. And when that happens, toxic water starts flowing. And, and, you know, bad things can happen has happened to Kent State- SM: 17:59 When you one of the things about Kent State, and I have written, read a lot of books and done other interviews on it in the past, is that it always comes up, why cannot state you have a single section in your book, you know, people saying why did that happen here? You know, you could be Berkeley or University Wisconsin or Ohio State here, but Kent State [crosstalk] HM: 18:21 -places, it have-have been happened. Yeah. SM: 18:23 And in your own way, could you save? Why Kent State? HM: 18:30 Well, yeah, I mean, I will try to, I think there were a number of factors involved. And, number one, the college administration was not prepared for anything like this. They were they were not up to the moment in any way whatsoever. I think the President had a reputation as a very nice guy, white, but-but he had he was way over his head, this administration was way over its head. So that is factor number one. Ken Hammond, who was one of the student leaders this time made a really interesting point to me said also, the student demonstrators, he had been head of SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] when SDS was still in the Kent State campus. It was kicked off in 1969 because of some fight with fraternity boys and the attorney. Attorney. I know it was not kicked off. I just SDS was kicked off. And he said the problem there was that SDS gay protesters and infrastructure. You know, we had bullhorns, we had mimeograph machines we could get people organize in a way. SM: 19:15 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. HM: 19:32 And what you had was what you had in the once the guardsman got there. And once the garden became the principal subject of this all you had, you had no infrastructure among the protesters no sort of coordination among the protesters. Everybody just kept repeating the same action expecting a different outcome. You had Jim Rhodes, who was the perfect tender for this for this sort of thing to happen. Jim Rhodes was a governor. Remember Rhodes was running. He could not succeed himself. He was running for the Senate seat. He was running for the Republican nomination for the Senate against Robert Taft Jr. and Rhodes saw this as I- when-when, when, first when his office was called early in the morning of Saturday-Saturday morning, and asked to send National Guard's Rhodes was man from heaven, because it could excite his base especially as Republican base especially in southern Ohio. A Friday poll had him trail and Bob Taft by 75,000 votes, I think it was your 69,000 votes. SM: 20:35 Mm-Hmm. HM: 20:35 Tuesday after the shootings was the primary election, he lost by 5000 votes. That almost put them over the top astoundingly enough. So you had that you had the guardsmen in this particular case, who were terribly led, who had no leadership whatsoever. So it was it was a perfect storm waiting to happen. At Columbia, people were used to this kind of thing, that at Berkeley, they might not have liked it any more than they do anywhere else. But they were used to this kind of thing. And, and also, I think part of it too, and I think I mentioned this in the book was tend to say it was it was a was a feeder school for the classrooms for teachers for north, northeast Ohio. SM: 21:22 Mm-Hmm. HM: 21:23 And teachers and I was one and I know a lot of them still tend to be naive. They tend to actually believe that we think they know everything they read in the Constitution and everything I say, Oh yeah, this is the way society works. I think they were I think they were simply naive about how you know what the guard was capable of. It is notable that that virtually no Black students participate in those demonstrations. In fact, they stake consciously away because Black students in Ohio as elsewhere know what police can do and- SM: 21:55 Yes. HM: 21:55 -what we will do- SM: 21:56 Yes. HM: 21:57 -if you get an adequately pissed off, they know what they will do. And in fact, when the ROTC building when the ROTC building got caught on fire on Saturday night the whole group of students from so called Black United students bus a clever acronym for the day boss and-and all that- SM: 22:15 Mm-Hmm. HM: 22:16 -these kids as soon as that started just-just as it caught on fire they showed up in the student union to have something eat you know or something like that. So they would be notably seen nowhere near this event. SM: 22:27 Wow. HM: 22:28 And they scared that they scared I think they the workers in the in the in the in the cafeteria, you know, the food, the food court area by all showing up at the same time. But so-so they were not naive the students were in lots of cases, I think naive. And then there was the fact that Jerry Rubin had been there to [inaudible] two weeks before- SM: 22:52 Mm-Hmm. HM: 22:54 -and had spoken and he had inflamed not only students but the townspeople of Kent. His talk was reported on and-and-and he had one of his famous lines which he always said was and you will your listeners will pardon me it goes something like "Just say fuck everywhere." [laughs] And you know, the townspeople cannot we are not quite ready for this. SM: 23:18 No. HM: 23:19 America was not quite ready for it is Jerry Rubin well, no Jerry Rubin was on the great self-promoters of all time. As was Abbie Hoffman for that matter? So that played a role too, because on Friday when the students [inaudible] I remember-remember the timing on this, the Thursday before the shootings. Richard Nixon goes on TV he gives a speech the war is being expanded into Cambodia. The 100,000 troops he was going to bring home or being you know are not going to be bought home and inflame students everywhere. Friday night, it is the first one of the first warm nights of spring. These are kids there is three to beer for sale to 18-year-old in that part of Ohio. I do not know if it is true. It was true then, all of Ohio there were bars downtown the kids go down. They start drinking they get a little rowdy. Somebody close to that with somebody orders the mayor orders the bars closed. So now you have got kids who has been the bands have not yet started that does not have the-the lead bands and [inaudible] that headliners not started. There is a, there is the New York Knicks and Lakers game is playing Wilt Chamberlain versus Willis Reed etc. For the NBA championship. All those people are watching out in the bars are thrown on the street now you got people who are just sore out on the street and they start to misbehave on the street. And that is with about within about an hour of that LeRoy Satrom, the mayor calls the governor's office and so that guards be sent in and that starts this thing on an inevitable- given the characters involved, it starts with on an inevitable march almost a tragedy. SM: 24:25 Yep. You bring up in this unit and you are discussing this, the-the massive lack of leadership in every group that you talked about the fact that the-the years of SDS are no longer there because they had been kicked off campus than they did the organization's for many of the planning for protests. And of course, they would have weekly meetings on campus and his organization- HM: 25:28 Right. SM: 25:28 -there. And then the mayor in I have worked in university for years and the mayor of any city is in deep contacts with the president of the university in their own town. First person- HM: 25:43 Yep. SM: 25:43 -to be called and he ends up calm the-the governor. HM: 25:47 Yep. SM: 25:47 So there was lack of leadership their lack of leadership in the guard. When you bring that up beautifully describe it was some of the people who were in the guard, did not know who to take orders from and you did not know anyone who was in charge. And I think you had a line in there and I do not know who said it. It was like two people walking in the middle of the night just been passing each other and that would be the mayor and the leader of the guard. [laughs] HM: 25:51 Yep. Yeah, and a perfect example of the lack of leadership. Okay, comes on Monday, comes on Monday at noon, everybody knows there is going to be a demonstration on you know, everybody knows what is going to happen. There is going to their students are going to gather, the guard will rebill, Ohio Riot Act in order to disperse, they will not disperse. They will fire tear gas and then we will see what happens. Well, so it is obviously an everybody knows what is going to happen on the students know what is going to happen the teachers are talking about in your classes that morning. There are signs posted in bulletin boards and all the academic halls. And “Where is the government," said “Where is the president of the university? Where all his top administrators?” At noon that day when it has been called for, they were having lunch at the Brown Derby restaurant a half a mile from the restaurant and from the from the scene of action. There is a command center that is been set up for-for crisis command center. And in charge of the command center is a 25-year-old graduate student named Ray Bae who I had a really great long interview with. Ray Bae is sitting up there. He does not have any windows in this command center. So good windowless command center with a crackly walkie talkie that you can you can periodically talk to people on a periodic cannot hear a darn thing that said, and this is when the whole thing started. You know, that is, that is, that is, it is, it is beyond, you are responsible. It is a way it is criminal irresponsibility, I think on the part of the university. SM: 27:46 I heard in an interview, I will not mention the name. But in one of my interviews, the person said that they knew all about President White and whenever there was a crisis, he would that be seen, he would send one of his administrators to the crisis and had that person report back to him so that he would be free from the controversy or whatever. HM: 28:05 I think he was also just a laissez faire kind of guy- SM: 28:08 Right. HM: 28:08 -to say that things will take care of themselves. He was apparently much loved. He was a good guy. But if-if, and we can talk another time, but yesterday, Glen Frank had finally not finally not acted after the shooting was when there was no worse could have been worse could have happened. Somebody had to take charge. Glen Frank finally took charge. But that is another story for later on. SM: 28:31 But yeah-yeah. What a hero. He was, you know, and the tears in his eyes. When students saw the tears in his eyes. He knew he meant business and [crosstalk] HM: 28:42 -broke them. I do not know if anybody has ever talked about that. He was never the same after that. SM: 28:50 You talk to- HM: 28:50 -his son, his son mentioned that to me. SM: 28:53 You talk about you talked to the student activities director. He has listened. He was in your book here of canceling universal. Yeah, he said there was a plan. There was a plan. If there was a crisis, we had a plan. And they talked about all this business about the plan, then why did not you do it? HM: 29:10 Because, well, the plan involves the Ohio patrol and the Highway Patrol. That was the plan. [laughter] Highway Patrol one had nothing to do with it. And then of course, there were the extraneous factors to that guardsmen that were brought over to Kent from Akron, where they had been on a teamsters strike, they had been sort of, you know, policing the roads over there, because, you know, people like teachers were firing at scabs and the trucks that were there, were taking the trucks out. So these guys retire. They, you know, they have done they have done fairly hard duty, they were sleeping on, you know, a gym floor and, and so, all those all those sorts of factors are part of that are part of the volatile putting that is being created on these three days that go along and as they go along. SM: 30:00 I know when you talked about Richard [inaudible], he taught he talked about the importance of community. HM: 30:00 Yeah. SM: 30:00 -that whole concept that I we think we know our community. And then he looked at the videos after the after the tragedy and the killings. HM: 30:06 Yeah. SM: 30:06 And he said, I did not know any of those students. I mean, talk about administration. That was as Jerry, I think, Jerry Lewis, the professor said the- HM: 30:27 Jerry Leis, yeah. SM: 30:29 -wrong man at the wrong time. And that was so true. The people that are going to be listened to this interview are going to be hearing this 5-10-15-20 years from now, could you just briefly describe again, the four days leading up to the tragedy? HM: 30:46 Sure-sure. SM: 30:47 Yeah. HM: 30:49 Thursday. Now that pick-up count backwards third, second, first, Thursday, April 30th, Richard Nixon gives a nationally televised speech, explaining why instead of bringing troops home from Vietnam, 100,000 troops home, he is expanding the war to interdict-interdict North Vietnamese and Vietcong soldiers in Cambodia. So this is everybody thought, "Oh, gee," you find these bringing people home, the war is winding down." It produced a pretty violent reaction on campuses generally around the country. So that is Thursday. Friday, there is a demonstration on the Kent State campus by a bunch of nerdy looking graduates who photograph is wonderful, who call themselves WHORE for an acronym for World historians opposed to racial something. I cannot think of what the EU would be right now. Racial exploitation, I think it was- SM: 31:55 Right. HM: 31:56 -supposed to, and they bury a copy of the Constitution at the at the bell, the victory bill, which was a big part of the campus of the of the commons area where the where the later events will begin. And then on Saturday, the things are fairly calm in the morning. There is some talk about ROTC building, going and attacking the ROTC building. It should have been it should have been anticipated. I am sure it was not just ready because ROTC buildings were being attacked nationwide and set on fire and in some cases bombed nationwide. So the evening comes, the guard has the guards, the guard is over in Akron, but they have been they have been put an alert they might have to come to campus. And students begin to attack to begin to surround the ROTC building and make some you know halfhearted attempts to set it on fire. The- Kent fire department is called they show up. They begin to try to put out the fire but there gets some flak things just people are throwing some things that somebody might have taken a machete to one of the fire hose it is hard to say. But the so they leave meanwhile, meanwhile on a ridge overlooking this that I think it is the vice president a guy whose name is going escapes me right now. Matson, I think it is standing up there with the Kent State Security Force. They are looking down at this at from this sort of height because the-the ROTC buildings at the end of this commons area, it is surrounded by some hills. And they do not do a thing. They just stand there. They- the fire department goes away, the students move in, they set the building on fire. And about that time the guard has been the guard has been summoned. And as the guard is driving into Kent, they see this. They see this sky lit up by flame and they say oh my god, what am I getting into with that was the ROTC building burning. And it burned it burned to the ground that night. I think the fire department returned and put some of the flames out or something I cannot remember that. The guard, the guard hits the ground running. They order people in the dormitories to do all sorts of things. There is a bunch of you know, back and forth hit and run sort of stuff the students are trying, the guard take control the situation. In some cases, they have been at a number of kids in the butt, or they were trying to climb in the windows. It was various other things. So the campus is- the campuses is tempestuous at this point. So that is Saturday night. Yes. Oh-oh, I forgot. I forgot okay. I had to go back on Friday night. I am sorry on Saturday morning after he calls him to guard LeRoy, LeRoy Satrum, the mayor of Kent also declares a curfew downtown Kent from I think it is from eight at night till six in the morning, something like that. So the students are now confined to the campus. They cannot leave the campus. The guard has showed up there some sort of major confrontation. So that night, Sunday comes and things are eerily calm in the morning. I remember who was in which was it Jerry Lewis, I think it was Jerry Lewis. One of the professors that teachers at Kent, told me about taking his kids down - SM: 34:06 Mm-Hmm. him. That was him. Yes. HM: 35:36 Yeah. To see the ROTC building it is surrounded by guards and the guards when the guardsmen by the way are carrying M M1 Garand rifles, which were sniper rifle their world war two combat rifles is what they are. It is an actually insane thing to be doing crowd control with, you do crowd control with bird shot. SM: 35:55 Mm-Hmm. HM: 35:56 And it just about the same time Israel started using rubber bullets for crowd control. These guys are using guns that are lethal, up to a half up to more than a half a mile out. SM: 36:07 Wow. HM: 36:08 Guns that can pick a 200-pound person up off the ground and throw them backwards through the air. That is how powerful they are. So Jerry Lewis said he was walking around with his kids. He said, I have been I have been in the army. I have been at Fort Knox guard in Fort Knox. I carry a gun. We never had any ammunition. And I never thought to ask these guys so they had live ammunition and their rifles who just did not seem to be possible. But there is a kind of a- it is kind of a carnival festival quality to Sunday afternoon. You know, the whole thing, you lovely young woman with-with-with buckskin fringe coats on, you know, put rifle put flowers in their rifles and the guards. There is some guards smiling back at the girls and all this sort of stuff that had a set of a playful quality. SM: 36:55 Mm-Hmm. HM: 36:55 That nights things go to hell in a handbasket. Huge confrontation of by the main gate, apprentice gates, and back and forth, back and forth. Helicopters are coming in and doing tear gas from the air. The places that some people who want one or two people came back to campus that that night, because classes started the next day they had been now a lot of kids. I have started commuted to Kansas State it was good and there were a lot of commuters from Cleveland and elsewhere going down there was not they did not live there. They were not residents students talk about these are a couple of people who have come who had been-been in Vietnam. They said they came over the hills coming down towards Kent State. They said it looked like-like-like Da Nang you know, helicopters, there was tear gas all over the place, there were people running every direction, etc., etc. So it is a- it is a- it is a fraught situation. They finally break that up sometime after midnight, the campus quiets down overnight. And there is a- now it is Monday, May 4, there is a demonstration has been called for-for noon that day. Same place other demonstrations has taken place and it is down on the on the commons area. Surrounded it is a kind of a natural bull. And so the students are on the hillside looking down in this natural bowl. The guards 600-700, some of them 792 or something like that. Their main the main encampment is down at the far end of the of the Commons. So they-they are down there. The guy who is in charge of the guards a gun in Canterbury, General Canterbury. He is sort of late to the party to a 10 o'clock meeting and he-he has a suit on. So he is not even in uniform. He is wearing a suit with-with a gas mask over his over his head on top of his head and communication, presumably a communication system. So it is now noon. The-the one of the one of the guys from the guards, or yeah, no, it is maybe the camera who it was. Gets his bullhorn tells the students they had to disperse. Under the Ohio Riot Act the students have no intention of dispersing of meanwhile, should add to they have not canceled classes, people are still walking to classes all around this scene. And it will be fatal for two of them. And within the next 22 minutes. The- so the students you know refuse to move Canterbury lines as his troops up, he marches him forward towards the hill where all these people are sitting. There is tear gas being fired. The students take off up the hill and down the other side of it. The guardsmen split into two camps going on one side of Taylor Hall and a large group on the other side of Taylor Hall. The main group of guardsmen end up down because nobody has this guy Canterbury has not tested, has no sense of the battlefield. He has, he has marched his troops down into a cul de sac, basically a football field on practice football field that has, you know, has a fence around it. And there is construction down there, which gives people you know, pieces of wood to throw at the garden, everything there, the other groups are disappears the other side, they do not become a factor. And so they are down there. This is now about, let us say, 12:15 around in there, 12:20-12:00-12:14, something like that. And so he is well, they start to march and back up the hill, they just came down. They get to the Pagoda, which is a campus, sort of little sculpture, it is a- it is a metal Pagoda kind of thing. They got their-their students thinking the guards, because they want to have the guards in the run are coming up the hill after them. The guards who in turn 19 of them, turn fire 67 shots into the crowd, they fire 67 shots, I should say. Some of them go in the air, some of them go in the ground. But there was an air of intentionality by that point. And, and nobody has ever been held responsible for this, I should say. You mentioned Joe Lewis earlier, Joe Lewis, in a what he called a colossal, colossal piece of bad timing. chooses just at the moment when the guards have turned to stand up and give him the finger. He gets shot in the ankle. Alan Canfora has shot in the wrist. He has been waving a flag, Black Flag during this this, this part of the demonstration he got shot on the wrist. Alison Krauss, who was very visible, it was very striking looking woman very much in the forefront of the protest is-is shot. Basically, bullet fragments insider and destroys virtually all of her viscera. And Jeffrey Miller, who has been again very active, short guy kind of buzzing around like a [inaudible] thing is just, it is just shouting out one of the basic chants. I suspect it was 1234 We do not want your fucking more when he shot in the mouth. Jerry Miller, Miller, Jeff Miller bleeds out on the ground. He is the one in the famous photo bleaching out as Marianas Accio stands with their arms up in there looking like a character from Edvard Munch painting. Screaming to just screaming basically. But I mean, those are what they are on. They are horrible, but they are the collateral damage, the incidental damage. So there is intentionality and all those cases I am sure that they ran at those people. There is no question about that. But then there were the shots that were just randomly fired, that were-were not fired up in the air, though. There is a parking lot behind where all these people have been. And that is where Sandy Shore is walking from one class to another. She is not even looking at what is going on. She is walking along, and an M1 bullet- service or jugular vein. And that is also where Bill Schroeder, who was he will just stop his books are in his arm and he has just stopped and you know, to ask people what is going on something like that. And he was number two in his ROTC class. He was a college basketball player 6-6 feet 1 or something 180 odd pounds. He is the one that no one bullet just picks up off the ground and throws back his arms and legs akimbo. A guy named Henry Mankiewicz was standing next to him and he describes it in something that will haunt me for my dying day, that description. And then there were other people who shot incidentally two or maybe not it is hard to hard tell some of those cases. So the guardsmen, then the guardsmen then reassemble. This This puts us off to everything you know what is going on nobody else the guardsmen are marched around to where they began. They have reassembled now at the far end of this Commons. And this is going on getting towards one o'clock on-on Monday, May 4th. The students are back over the hill and they were back where they were when this whole thing began. And there are a bunch of them who have stripped off their shirts and painted X's on their chest [coughs] excuse me and are getting ready to charge the guard. The guard has reloaded I mean it would have been able to my shooting ducks in a barrel. And this is when teacher named Glenn Frank, crew cut guy who had been a military guy himself and World War Two, just a complete straight shooter. He sees he sees the potential and he had another idea and one person start pleading with the students to not do this, do not do this do not do this and, and he does not know it but his son Alan is one of those people in the crowd. Who was who says he said[inaudible] house fraternity kid? I had no you know, I was against all this protest. And after seeing this, I was ready to strip my shirt off and charged with them. And Glen Frank cannot know this. But Glenn Frank, please and please, you can hear his voice is to tape recording. He is crying with tears in his voice. It is an incredibly passionate moment. And he finally convinces them to turn and-and disperse, which they do. And that is that is basically the end of the action although that night things intent, there been a lot of rumors flying around cat. Among the rumors was that the students are going to lace the water supply with-with LSD, which one I love that they were coming through underground tunnels, the sewer tunnels or something like that to set fire to a shopping center, strip mall and various other things. SM: 46:08 Mm-Hmm. HM: 46:09 And go and people store owners were spending the night with our deer rifles on top of your stores. The it was it was a very fraught place. And that night, there are a lot of people driving around sort of vigilante cars looking for students that because the initial report was students-students killed two guardsmen. That was the first report I think that went out. And of course, then that got corrected went along for the 11 wounded. So and then the story is kind of plays itself out eventually that day, they ordered the campus closed and-and that is sort of the end of it, at least at that level of action. Is that clear enough? SM: 46:56 Yes, it is very good description, because- HM: 46:58 Okay. SM: 46:59 -it is a very good description. What is interesting is what is going on in Washington DC at this very same time. You know, I think you do-do a tremendous job in your book about making the context it is going on not only in Kent, but other places. The one thing that is very true, it happened to me, but it happened to so many other people at that time. Is the-the talk that I wish they had killed all those students, you know, people- HM: 46:59 Yeah. SM: 47:01 -going home to their families and- HM: 47:08 Oh, my God, yeah-yeah. SM: 47:13 -the whole community of Canton people. I mean, I mean to say something I was at Binghamton University, I am senior year and I am going to be graduating in two weeks. And, and I was in an accident. I was in the operating room in Johnson City, the night of Nixon speech, and, and I was in the hospital for about a week or so. But I am- HM: 47:51 Yeah-yeah. SM: 47:51 -in that magazine. My parents brought the magazine in with Mary Vecchio over Jeff Miller- HM: 47:57 Life magazine. Yeah-yeah. SM: 47:58 -but you know, my doctor who saved my arm, they were going to amputate it. HM: 48:02 Oh no. SM: 48:03 They were. Yeah, it was a very bad injury at my house back. And then near Ithaca. He came in and said, I was looking at the magazine. He said I wish to kill those damn kids. HM: 48:15 Oh yeah-yeah- SM: 48:15 I did not respond to him by saying I am one of those damn kids. But that was that that was a surgeon that saved my arm. HM: 48:22 Yeah-yeah-yeah. SM: 48:22 And he knew I was abandoned student. So that that is so important. [crosstalk] And also the late kneeling labeling of all people who happen to be in Kent as communists and all this. HM: 48:34 Oh, yeah-yeah-yeah, exactly. Oh, no. And there was Brinsley Tyrrell who is I do not know when she is still alive. And he was an art teacher there. He was still alive when? Back in 2015, when I interviewed him, but he remember he was a young art teacher there. And he and his wife. Well, first of all, he told me two stories, three stories. Actually, I will tell you all three, because they are all they all relate to this. SM: 48:56 Mm-Hmm. HM: 48:57 The first one was, he and his wife were home. That I think it was late that night or the next day, when one of his students who had you know they had been thrown off the campus, they could not go out. He came and knocked on the door. And ft come in, and he said was sure come in. And he sat down and cried. He said he had gone home. And wherever home was, you know, a couple hours away- SM: 49:22 Wow. HM: 49:23 -and that he found the door locked. So he said, Hey, it is me. And his parents shouted through the through the mail slot. We do not ever want to see you again. And so he came to Brinsley's house, that that same day is two daughters. So they had tired a Black, Black ribbon around a tree in front of their house. Being good academic liberals and their daughters the next day were going out to school was closed the next day still, they are going to play with some friends and the kids in the neighborhood pelting them with tones, which just to me is just horrible beyond description. SM: 49:25 Mm-Hmm. HM: 49:27 And then the third thing is he remembers he remembered a day later even walking downtown from his house, and a neighbor, about half a block down. Sitting on his front porch with a shotgun. He said, he just trained it on me the entire way down in front of his house. SM: 50:23 Wow. HM: 50:23 I just walked down with this guy swinging, swinging as is aim along with me. And that and those stories are just beyond Dean Kahler, you know, got Dean Kahler, who has been paralyzed for life. He was, he was he was, he was nowhere near the action. He would take. He meant he was such a, he was such a polite and farm Ohio farm boy, that he called all his teachers that morning, Monday morning to tell them, he was afraid he had missed their class because he wanted to, you know, see what this is all about. SM: 50:24 Mm-Hmm. HM: 50:27 And he would just he just went a shooting star, he lay down on the ground and was shot in the back. And since he lost his feet because of lack of circulation. SM: 51:04 Mm-Hmm. HM: 51:04 He is our heroic person, and they are very decent person. I got to say. So yeah, those stories and that story was magnified nationally, but that was going on nationally. I mean, I can remember in Washington, DC, you know, having slightly long hair as I did, but not you know, not sort of not hippy length hair and like walking into barber shops and having you know, World War Two that just sitting there just glower at me as I, as I walked in waiting for my chair to say I never said that kind of thing. We were just going on nationally and all sorts of. And another example that after the week, that weekend, after the Kent State shooting, there was a pro there was a there was a demonstration in the financial district in New York. SM: 51:47 HM: 51:47 For you know, in, in honor of the anti-war demonstration honoring the Kent State dead, wounded. And you will remember this, the construction workers showed up with their hard hats and crowbars and beat the crap out of some of the people who were doing demonstrating and that Gordon Brennan, the head of a construction union workers, job is Richard Nixon's labor secretary, if I remember correctly. [laughter] SM: 52:17 You talked- HM: 52:18 Richard Nixon, Richard Nixon. I mean, they will go ahead, go down. SM: 52:21 Yeah, we are going to talk about Nixon. The-the context of this at that particular time was over the issue of law and order. HM: 52:28 Yeah-yeah. SM: 52:28 And you do a tremendous job here by explaining what Ronald Reagan did about a couple of weeks before Kent State- HM: 52:36 Yep. SM: 52:37 -with the students in California and then the governor of Ohio doing the very same thing with- HM: 52:43 Yep-yep. SM: 52:43 -the way he was acting. And then you go into what Nixon was doing in Washington and Haldeman's notes. Could you kind of go into all this? It is really good and-and I think the silent majority how the silent majority came about. HM: 52:57 Yeah, right. [laughs] it is, it is an interesting, isn't that? SM: 52:59 Yeah. HM: 53:00 Well, just-just quickly on that, or the stretch my memory a little bit here. So well, Nixon, Nixon's first. Nixon's first instinct was, well, it was it was it was out of out of it was professional rabble rousers basically. it was outsiders. And he told J. Edgar Hoover, the director of the FBI, to find those outside rabble rousers, the you know, the-the agitators, the outside agitators who would cause this because the party line was that there was a group of people, SDS, leaders, yippies, like Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, etc., who were causing all this trouble. It was not. It was not a, you know, an endemic American problem. It was this this sort of small group. And so J. Edgar Hoover has spent his people spent a lot of time in Kent trying to, you know, collecting, you know, information, none of which were out. And we just we talked about that [inaudible] would later say that you know, they I believe this to be the case too and when we looked at the photographs, they were all our own people we just did not know them they were not the kind of people we focused on these if we just did not know your work so-so-so Hoover was trying to collect all this stuff. Actually. There is a that is a good story too. I will get to that. So and Nixon meanwhile, so hold him is the one who goes in and wakes up Nixon. He is taking a nap on Monday afternoon he tells him about the shootings. And Nixon was apparently initially you know, very concerned about a horrible, horrible thing. Bob just horrible thing. And then of course, he begins to try to figure out how I can play this politically. SM: 54:42 Mm-Hmm. HM: 54:43 So he orders Hoover to find out who the outside agitators are. Meanwhile, Spiro Agnew, his Vice President, this is just red meat for Agnew who-who-who goes every who starts talking everywhere he can about-about the nattering nabobs of negativism that he used to call the people in the press and everybody else. SM: 55:06 Sapphire was his writer. [laughter] HM: 55:07 You have sapphire-sapphire, I hope I hope got into heaven nonetheless. It turns out that guidance that Gould who was what was-was spear lag news press secretary. And I knew that died a couple years ago. He is a great guy. I knew him pretty well. And so we talked about, he told me he actually told me he said that the horrible the real tragedy that the real tragedy said the thing about that Jim Rhodes said he was not he was not running for the Senate because he because he wanted to be a senator. He just could not think anything else to do with his time to do so he loses he loses the National Guard on Kent State. Because what the hell else am I going to do right? It is just natural become a senator. Rhodes is a horrible person and lots of money. Right. Okay. So-so-so Nixon was trying to figure out how to play this. And he does. He orders Agnew to just pike, turn it, turn it down a notch, turn it down several notches. Then he gives us a Thursday or Friday, Thursday. Thursday night? Yes, right. Thur- Friday night, he gives a speech to the American people, which starts out, you know, fairly conciliatory, but then gets a little rougher as it goes along. And meanwhile, hundreds of 1000s of people are preparing to gather in the mall the next day, the National Mall, Nixon was giving this speech in a White House, it was surrounded by DC transit buses, human barricade, and the middle it was literally surrounded, ringed by them all the way around the entire bus fleet, practically a DC transit buses. There are the 82nd airborne is overnighting in executive, the old Executive Office Building sleeping on the floor over there. And I know this because I was out in the mall the next day. And there are snipers on top of all the Smithsonian buildings and all the government buildings along the people high powered rifles. That is the sort of state things were in at that point. So, it was it was just it was a horribly-horribly fraught time. But I think you can make an argument that it was in fact, almost the end of the anti-war movement, the in any sort of in any sort of collective meaningful, high impact way that was happening at any rate, because the draft had ended in the December of 1969. So, the there was less incentive because it was now going to be an all-volunteer army. But I do think I do think they response. Oh, do you think I think I can safely say that was the beginning of the end of, and I think it was the beginning of the end of radicalism in America for many decades. SM: 58:24 Mm-Hmm. HM: 58:25 Really, I do not think we have ever seen it. We have not seen anything like that in my in my, you know, my, what is my really adult lifetime, as opposed to my 20s? So yeah, I think I think I say that in the book, and I think I feel that is still the case. SM: 58:42 But what is interesting when-when you were talking about the Reagan, then the Rhodes and the Nixon is the words they used. And Reagan said, if it takes a bloodbath to end campus violence, let us get it over with no more appeasement. And then Rhodes comes back at you know, after Kent State or during Kent State. And about, you know, let us get rid of the law. It is a law no, deal with the symptoms. Let us deal with.[crosstalk] HM: 59:15 Yeah, we are going to root-root out the problem. Yes. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Real tough talk. You said that at the press conference, when he first came to Canada. Yeah, he was. He was a take no prisoners. The guy wrote. The not the right man for the moment. I do not think. SM: 59:32 Yeah, certainly Nixon gone down in the middle of the night to the memorial. HM: 59:36 That is what I was trying to remember. SM: 59:37 Yes. HM: 59:38 That is one of the weirdest moments in American presidential history. The Nixon this is after he has given the speech. He thinks it is a wonderful speech. He is feeling you know, really, he had said he would take no calls after the speech because he thought there might be you know, would not be, but he was he was he was had to completely opt out after the speech. And he made something like “God Oh,” I wish I had the numbers in front of simulate 50 calls in three hours. I mean, any maxed number them to Henry Kissinger as I remember correctly. For some reason Henry Kissinger I am not sure why. And then about three o'clock he wakes 3:15 wakes up is his valet what is his name Mano [Manolo] Sanchez, something like that. And says, "Have you ever been to the mall? " "No, sir, I have not." "So Oh, good, get dressed." They have got a skeleton crew, they go down, they wake up a couple of protesters who are in sleeping bags, have a chat with them. And you look at this, there is a famous photograph of Nixon there. And one guy who had a guy and a woman or you know, long haired- SM: 1:00:46 Right. HM: 1:00:46 -and they looked and they looked like my God, how much dope that I have last night? Why am I, why am I having this vision? [laughs] SM: 1:00:55 Also, I guess he Nixon was upset because he did not hear favoritism from his cabinet. You had mentioned that. HM: 1:01:01 Oh yes of course [crosstalk] SM: 1:01:02 He was very upset. Yeah. HM: 1:01:06 [inaudible]got in big trouble for that. Nixon-Nixon-Nixon had no capacity for it for small talk. I mean, he was- his-his staff wrote out small talk on index cards for him. So he starts talking to people and he says, you know, and then he started to tries to make small talk with them. And one person had gone to Syracuse University, as I remember. So we started talking about Jim Brown and you know, this area and Ben Schwartzwald are the old Syracuse football stars. That is what-what did this guy wake me up to talk about Syracuse football for? And then he goes from there. He orders that he says the Mantra he says the sen- of Mano if I am in credit. "Have you ever seen the House of Representatives," said "No, no." So they go tooling off to the House of Representatives. And they have to get secrets or people open the door. Somebody opened the place up and then they could enter the well the house and Mono has a nice look around. They go have breakfast somewhere and by then everybody's on alert to get him back inside. And take the phone away for a while I think. SM: 1:02:13 Well, there was also the scene where he brought students from Kent State University to the White House. HM: 1:02:18 Yes. SM: 1:02:19 And-and he said that was a great meeting. And they were a bunch of nice kids. [laughter] [inaudible] radicals. HM: 1:02:28 Yeah, carefully chosen if we can [crosstalk] SM: 1:02:30 I think so. HM: 1:02:32 Yeah, yeah. [crosstalk] SM: 1:02:33 Could you- HM: 1:02:35 He was capable of such strangeness? SM: 1:02:37 Yeah, of course. Agnew. The guy had nothing to do so go out and go after the protesters. He, he put some words to you. You brought it up in the book. All they do is proclaim. [laughter] Why do not[crosstalk] they go and become educated? And you also mean, you said something very important that about the silent majority. Could you talk a little bit about that too. HM: 1:03:05 Oh sure. Well, yeah, there was a guy who were the people that was it. Oh, I cannot think of the name of the people involved. Was it Ben Wattenberg? SM: 1:03:06 Because that was happening at that time? Who were the silent majority. They were the on- the one they were the on Black on? Go ahead. And- Yes. Ben Wattenberg. HM: 1:03:24 Yeah. [inaudible] and Wattenberg was one of them and so they set out to find out who the silent majority work. And they did all this determination. And they-they finally decided that the-the prototypical sat member of the sound majority was not going to have this exactly right. Was a 48-year-old housewife in Dayton, Ohio. And there was something else in that description that made me think oh, yes, a perfect candidate mother who was exactly the kind of person they were talking about. Kent State was a school you know, was-was a middle-class school. It was not it was not an Amherst or a Princeton or anyplace like that. But the-the person that the middle-class person they wanted was, in fact, the person who had been most dramatically affected in some ways by Kent State. So I find that fascinating. I wish I had the detail work in front of me, but I do not right now. SM: 1:04:21 I think they were on young, on Black and on something else. HM: 1:04:26 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. SM: 1:04:28 What is an important thing to talk about here again, as a little more description of the of the guard? HM: 1:04:34 Yes, okay. SM: 1:04:35 And who they were, what-what kind of people were they? And again, you know, their role. You talk also about the number of guard that actually went and served in Vietnam, which is very small, like 1.5 percent or something like that. Very few. Yeah-yeah-yeah. but could you talk about what made up the guard and why they were there? HM: 1:04:55 Let me do one thing first. Before I do that, I found that by Um, this is uh, this is Ben Wattenberg and Richard Scammon. And from their book, The Real Majority published nearly 1970. The average voter the two argued was on young and poor and, and Black and less interested in progressive causes than law and order issues. That is what it was. That is what Yeah. Okay. And then I am sorry, what was the question you just asked me? SM: 1:05:24 It was about the guard itself. Who were they? I mean, I know, HM: 1:05:27 Oh yeah-yeah. SM: 1:05:28 They were young. They may even a couple years older than the students. But what who were they? HM: 1:05:33 Well, the guard were. The guards were in by then a lot of the guard were people who were in the guards did not go to Vietnam. I mean, they joined the Guard to get out of Vietnam. The most famous person to join the guard to get out to go into Vietnam, I guess was George W. Bush, who join the Alabama Air National Guard, if I remember correctly. The- they were, they were mostly just there, but some of them were college students. They were they were in their early 20s, early to mid-20s. They-they did not sign up for anything like this at all. I do not think they were. They were not particularly political. I mean, I think they are more Republican and Democrat, probably. But they were there. A lot of them were people who were just doing guard duty because they did not have to go to Vietnam. And they signed up before the all they would have signed up before the all-volunteer army before the draft ended in the end of December of 1969. And the guardsmen, to me, it is really, I had I ended up having sympathy for the guard that I never expected to have for the guardsmen. One because they were so poorly lit. They were asked to they were put in impossible situations by people that who-who-who, you know, who had no bloody idea what they were doing. And two they have been living inside. Another thing that another contributing factor, I forgot to mention this on what happened on the fourth is that somebody forgot to check and see how many tear gas canisters they had before they started this whole operation on that noon that day. And they ran out of tear gas halfway through, when they got down the hill on the other side, and they were getting trapped down there in the in the, in the construction site, the football field, they had no they had no tear gas left. So you know, it was just when you think of all the things they did wrong, they certainly were horribly led. But then I have read the guardsmen were deposed in many cases 2,3,4 or 5 times. And the first time they were deposed was right afterwards. And they just said what they were told to say. But then, and then and later deposition, you can see they have sort of thought through this experience they had. And you begin to see what it must have looked like to them through a gas mask, they were tired, a gas masks are hard. They were lousy things that view the world through, you get a narrow lens through the gas mask, they were sweaty, they were hot. And they saw people and I think they honestly thought these people were 20 feet from them, and they were 20 yards from them. I mean, I got a sense of the suffering they had gone through in the later deposition. So I never saw in the first depositions, and much more honesty, and I thought I thought these people were put in a horrible situation impossible situation. And somebody owes them an apology. SM: 1:08:28 Do you feel- do you feel at the question I have here with all the things that we have discussed here? HM: 1:08:37 Right. SM: 1:08:37 Everybody kind of failed in the area of leadership? Is there one person or one group that stands out above all? The reason why this happened? HM: 1:08:48 That is a good question. Nobody had a plan B, that was really the problem. SM: 1:08:55 Yeah. HM: 1:08:55 And that that old definition of insanity, you keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result? I would say? [sighs] Well, it is a toss-up between the guard leadership and university leadership. SM: 1:09:14 Right. HM: 1:09:15 I would say I would say the Guard leadership is the single greatest factor in this. SM: 1:09:23 Okay. HM: 1:09:23 The- it is what they did was inexcusable. The university leadership you can at least you know, give them credit for being naive and not getting credit. You can excuse me a bit-bit for being naive. Or at least, but I think they are willfully blind in themselves in the possibilities. But the- yeah, I would say the card I would say the guard I would say Robert Canterbury is the- is the- is that if I had to have a lead villain in this, I probably wrote with the second and president of White would be third- SM: 1:09:57 -press if the President had been a real press And then he, the may or may not may or may have contacted him and the garden we never been called. And-and if the- if the President had gone out to the gate and talked, it is so many, the President is never there. HM: 1:10:15 Yeah. SM: 1:10:16 He is a miserable- HM: 1:10:18 He was- he had- he had an appointment that that weekend in what is that called the American College test day. SM: 1:10:26 Right. HM: 1:10:27 He was on the board of the AC T on a high in Iowa. So he was out there, he did come back slightly early. But he never should have gone. I mean, he should have seen that now thought the situation was not gone. And once he was out there, he should have come back right away when this happened. Yes. Before I forget, let me say something also talking about Nixon back to Nixon. Bob Haldeman had a set of facts in the observation in his memoir. And that was he thought that Watergate began with Kent State. And his argument was that because that because J. Edgar Hoover could not deliver the outside agitators. Nixon lost faith in him. And that is why he assembled the plumbers to do this do his dirty work for him. And I hold them and says that I have to give it some credence. The, but it is sort of an interesting. It is a bit of a stretch, but kind of interesting observation. SM: 1:11:30 I have a lot. I have a little pair of paragraph here. I want to read because it is so well written. And I know you have said some of these things already. But I think it needs to be in the interview. It is on page 210. You have your book with you. HM: 1:11:42 I got it right in front of me. Yeah-yeah. [crosstalk] SM: 1:11:44 Could you go to page 10? And if you could read that last paragraph at the bottom there the stairs to Kent State shootings, I would rather have your voice in mind. I think it is, it is beautifully written. HM: 1:11:56 Thank you, okay. The Kent State shootings also occurred at one of the most turbulent cross currents and unnatural in our national history. A gaping generational divide opposing interpretations of patriotism, the democratization of higher education, the tail end of a decade of assassinations, Kennedy, King Kennedy and race riots, Detroit watch DC, the general collapse of comity, and not least of all, but maybe most not most important, the most divisive war in modern American times. We are all in play that Monday noon, when the guard moved out across the commons and students brace for whatever lay ahead. SM: 1:12:34 And then and the last one I have here is on page 213. If you could go to it as well. It is the section here it is the paragraph where it says Kent State was not just Kent State. that was yeah, this is- this is Bill Arthrell speaking and then you responding to what Bill says. Could you just read that paragraph? HM: 1:12:48 Oh, yeah-yeah-yeah. Sure-sure. Yeah. That begins with a quote. Kent State was not just Kent State, said Bill Arthrell, he of the napalmed dog stunt that had so engaged locals, and even alarmed, KSU faculty members, "Kent State was a symbol of everything and indicative of everything." And he might have added a distillation of everything as well, because Kent State on that early afternoon of May 4 is where all the raging waters in the (19)60s. bad and good, evil and sublime. flowed together for one brief, horrible moment. SM: 1:13:28 Yes, that is another really well written. HM: 1:13:32 Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, the paragraph is kind of a paragraph above that is close. Ellis Berns, who was one of my, one of the people who fascinated me from all this. SM: 1:13:44 You want to read that one as well? HM: 1:13:46 Well, I do not know that. SM: 1:13:49 I see him and well. HM: 1:13:50 Yeah, I guess I could. Yeah. Ellis Berns was a friend of Sandy Scheuer [Sandra Scheuer]. And was happened to be walking beside her when she was shot. And he later he just wandered around afterwards, he-he tried to stick his fist in the hole in her neck. It just horrifies me to think about and then he later on, he was so mad, he walked around, he took off his jacket will just cover her blood and throw to a Guardsman. So, this is what else for instead of getting a quote, "I always believed that Kent State was the period at the end of the sentence for the (19)60s." said Ellis Berns, who would punctuate his own May 4 and maybe the (19)60s by throwing his army fatigue shirt, caked with Sandy Scheuer's blood at a Guardsman. "It was at that point when things became quite real. I know there was Jackson State and students killed, but Kent was like the exclamation mark. It was the point where things started to change." He was, he was, he was a really interesting guy. I talked to him a lot. He is out in California and he- if I were going to make a movie about this, I would make him one of the stars. But I think because I just find it fascinating. SM: 1:15:05 You also talk you also mentioned several times, very some excellent thoughts from Jerry Casals. HM: 1:15:12 Oh yeah. Right. SM: 1:15:13 There is two places in the book where you his commentary is excellent. I mean- HM: 1:15:19 Yeah, no, I was I was really lucky to get him to talk to me. He is the devo guy. Yes, yeah. quite famous guy. But I have a cousin who is a- who is- who deals with wine vineyards. And Gary Jerry Casals has a has a wind vineyard. And he knew him. So he got me connected. You never know when a customer is going to come in useful. Yeah. SM: 1:15:41 Could you give? [crosstalk] Could you briefly just, you know, people probably wondering what happened when you do not have to go through all the trials and everything. But there were certainly trials. I know. Mr. Kraus got involved in this a lot. And certainly the all the families did are the four that were killed and all the ones that were wounded. There was some financial reward. But it was not very much for all that happened. But could you get- HM: 1:16:08 A decade really litigation. And it finally ends when the state of Ohio agrees to pay? I think I have this number correctly. 375-350,000 dollars to the families of the dead, the four dead and to the wounded, but almost everything that for the wounded went to Dean Keller, who is I think what was left over the head, if memory serves me was about $75,000 or less, I forget the exact figures, but it was really just about funeral costs for that for the dead. Where the house where the heck after the place [crosstalk] SM: 1:16:46 Yeah. I think that the people that were wanting to get 15,000 or something like that. I know, I think a long gap. HM: 1:16:52 Yeah, the minimum amount. Yeah. SM: 1:16:53 You know, I do not think I just do not think there was justice done to anybody who looks into this deeply and all of what the families went through and oh, my golly, and the whole thing that they can only sue the state as opposed to the individuals is that- HM: 1:17:09 Yeah-yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. They did all this. They did all this and nobody paid anything. I am just the taxpayers of Ohio are the ones that paid the paid the price on this. It is sort of like what happens to major banks, when they when they when they go to bed. They find that they find the shareholders. They do not. They do not- SM: 1:17:33 Could you say a few words about the four who died, who was Alison Krauss. HM: 1:17:40 Alison Krauss was a- had been an honor student and from Pittsburgh. And she was a she was a very, very- How would I put it? She was striking looking in a very late (19)50s kind of a Joan Baez late (19)60s way. And by all accounts, a really nice person. And she was she was active in the protests and against the war. She was often up front carrying a banner because she was tall, and she was striking looking. And she you know, what do you say? The- she had, there has never been somebody that had to targeted or I cannot I cannot think of anything else. Because when you turned around and you saw it and she was killed who was murdered. The you can call it something else. But we are intentionality is concerned. I think you have to say the least voluntary manslaughter. The- SM: 1:18:46 Jeff Miller. HM: 1:18:46 Jeffrey Miller, the Jeff Miller. It is funny the picture that you were talking about that Life magazine, the picture that went out of Jeff Miller around the country was that it was a high school photo and it just looks like it looks like a 14-year-old and the same. He had gone to I think it was Michigan State and transferred it goes to Michigan State. And he has become obviously somewhat radicalized. He was at longest hair. He is, he is, he is very easy to pick out in the photos. Even in the photo used in the cover of the book. You can see him at the front of whatnot. And that is a different photo. You can see him in the front line of people and he was he was in the front line all the way through. A- he got I remember there is a photograph in the New York Times of his funeral Cortes. He was from New York, from Long Island. And I think it was and his-his hearse going through the streets of Manhattan because his father his father learned about Jeffrey Miller's death. Because he was typesetting the story for The New York Times who was a lithograph for-for the New York Times. He was in the composing room when you learned about this, which is just beyond description Sandy Scheuer was a one to be a music educator she was she was in music education major, an absolute sweetheart of a girl. And, and the again she was just oh my god, you were just walking between classes what a college students supposed to do on a sunny day in May and-and absolutely senseless. I think her father was one of the people who just whose hard part was broken by listening to him afterwards, or, you know, reading about what he had to say. Bill Schroeder had transferred from Colorado College. I think it was one of the Colorado schools was a sophomore ROTC as I said basketball player. Stand-up guy in every regard. And the what was I thinking something I was going to mention about him to do to do to do ROTC? ROTC. Yes, fled my mind though some lovely fact about oh, well, this is interesting. I did just as an aside, so a friend of mine named John Pekkanen, guy worked with later years was a Life magazine stringer. And in Chicago, as soon as he had been assigned to go to scan because they knew this thing was going to take place. And he was supposed to, you know, cover it for further. Who was he who is a stringer for AP is a stringer for Associated Press? And so he was he had gotten there. And he arrived about 20 minutes after the shootings. So he, he took on Bill Schroeder as his subject. And he finally found his roommates, they are all gathered in his room. And, and so he tried to talk to them and ask them, you know, who what was, what was he like? And what do you think about this? And the kids would not say anything. Because I think what he what he understood from them from what they told him was that, you know, they were going to have to go out and find jobs when they were through his college, and they did not want this to be a stain on their record did not want to be associated with all this, which kind of breaks your heart-heart in some way too. SM: 1:22:17 Right. HM: 1:22:19 Speaking of that, of the end of the (19)60s. So, again, he was he was doing nothing. I mean, he was simply standing down there looking out and seeing what the heck was going on when, what- SM: 1:22:34 You mentioned. You mentioned one of the other changes that took place, politically was the-the Democratic Party became much more radical. And, of course, George McGovern was picked as the candidate and he was destroyed in the election. But you know, if you know anything about Senator McGovern, he is one of the kindest gentlemen you will ever meet. I have met him several times. I have interviewed him. And everybody say, Oh, my golly, I know he got clobbered in the election. But boy, he was a better man than the man who won. HM: 1:23:04 So he was a complete sweetheart. I interviewed him too. Yeah, the memory telling me that. He said, Oh, he said, he said, I see I did not mind losing the election, he said, but what really made me angry was when they booed my wife at a Redskins game. He was [inaudible] [laughter] SM: 1:23:26 Yeah, well, he was a really good guy. We put them there on campus to talk about the death of his daughter he wrote, you know, she died of alcoholism. HM: 1:23:33 Right. Yeah. SM: 1:23:35 I have got about five more questions here. HM: 1:23:37 Sure [inaudible] SM: 1:23:39 One thing I did not want to say is that someplace toward the end of the book, you said "Finally the grown-ups are in charge now because now the-the students and the radicals are going inward and they are not going to be involved in activism anymore." So that was something that was true. HM: 1:23:54 Oh, absolutely. Did the permissive (19)60s ,the permissive (19)60s- It ended with Kent State and they might have ended before they certainly ended with Kent State. And I can recall just a quick aside the-the that December that January before January (19)69. A year and a half before going to the counter Inaugural Ball in Washington DC. It was an attempt set up on the mall. And this was you know; Nixon protest and it was filled with a bunch of anti-war people. And a friend of mine was the treasurer of the thing so I thought I could and I walked in that tent the tent practically levitated from all the marijuana [laughter] in there and it was surrounded by policemen are just looking the other way but they could they could not have they could not have failed to notice Park policemen that there was a fair amount of illegal weed being consumed inside this and all that was all that- SM: 1:24:47 Was Wavy Gravy there? This is just some quick questions here and what role did them murders at Kent State. And again I in honor of Alan I now say murders. Alan was very I mean, I really miss Alan-Alan was the force to keep this alive from the West Chester University students knew nothing about it had on our campus twice. And he just wished that we would all say it is not the tragedy at Kent State. It is the murders at Kent State. So I always say that now, what role did the murders that can state play in ending the war in Vietnam? HM: 1:24:55 [inaudible] [laughter] That is a really good question. I that is a really good question. I think that the momentum, I think Vietnam war was ending. So I would I wish I could credit them with, you know, at least say that happened. But I think the forces were in play by then. So I think millennium was going it might have accelerated it somewhat. But I do not think you can say that for short. In the war, particularly. The-the war was on an inevitable downward trend. winding down trend. I wish I could give it more credit. SM: 1:26:09 Because I am some historians will say that because this happened in the Midwest, and young Americans died in the Midwest to send a message to those that were so supportive of the war that maybe this war was wrong. And you have a-an interview with a young lady in your book, which is fantastic. She-she was not an active or not politically involved. And she goes home and her parents say, well, you know, they were very upset that she was, you know, they well- they thought she was communist. HM: 1:26:40 Exactly. I know, I know. You know, remember, we threw those words around. So yeah, those days, too. Yeah. We just pigeonhole people by a couple of words. They were commies or they were whatever they were. And the words mean, no more than-than the words we throw around. Now do the- yeah-yeah. No, I remember that. That went- SM: 1:26:44 Yes. when did it- HM: 1:27:02 So, she went there guilt by so talking about guilt by association. SM: 1:27:04 Yeah. When did the (19)60s began in your view? And when did it end? If it end? HM: 1:27:12 Yeah. I think the (19)60s ended at Kent State. And I think the (19)60s began with Jack Kennedy's election. So, I would say (19)62 to June to May of (19)70. SM: 1:27:26 Have you? Have we healed as a nation from the Vietnam War? And if so, why? And if no way? HM: 1:27:35 That is a, that is a really interesting question. Well, you know, I think we have more so than we more so than we have. And I do not think we you could not say it is complete healing. It is interesting, one of the effects of the Vietnam War was to end the draft and the end the idea of national service. And I think that is been a big mistake in American society, I think we need to have national service. I just do not think it has to be everybody, you know, putting on a battle Hillman going off to wherever you would go. But I think that idea of national service was the man. That is what that is what the war, the war brought, the draft brought people together of all sorts of shapes and categories and sizes. And I think that is been a big loss not to have not to have some kind of national service, mandatory national service. SM: 1:28:39 Now, the-the Vietnam Memorial was opened in 1982, which many people believe it is the first time that Vietnam vets were recognized for their service. The only time in American history when our veterans when they came home from war were treated pretty poorly. And- HM: 1:28:57 Oh yeah, absolutely. SM: 1:28:58 -and so, and I know Jan Scruggs and-and Jack Wheeler in the group and vowed Mr. Dewback that created this have done a tremendous job for their nation and for our veterans, but it has done a tremendous job in terms of Vietnam vets and their families and in terms of remembrance, it is not supposed to be a political entity. It is about remembrance, but has not healed our nation at all. HM: 1:29:20 I think it has healed the vets to some extent. And I want to say here too, I think that one of the greatest continuing ed inequities in in in America today is-is the unwillingness to treat Agent Orange. Everybody in Vietnam, who was exposed to Agent Orange for-for them they should be they should be compensated for all sorts of diseases. That was a horrible thing to do is a horrible thing to rain down. paraquat on your on your own troops. And that was an inexcusable act to the people of Vietnam and the people And then the soldiers serving in that country, I think, I think that is one of the greatest injustice is. That is that is almost a war crime. As far as I am concerned. SM: 1:30:11 I am going to get about three more questions here. One of them is just a general question regarding those people who served in Vietnam and the anti-war movement, those activists who genuinely wanted to end the war. I personally consider both of them heroes, both groups. And I know that a lot of VNFs do not like those anti-war people. But many times they will put in there unless they were seriously against the war, and not against us. That is that is your thoughts on that on the concept of heroes for both the true activists who were against the war and not the vets and the soldiers themselves who served? HM: 1:30:54 So sure, no, I mean, I think I think nobody should have had to have been heroic. I mean, I do not divorce should not have been fought. But the fact that people went there and fought bravely and protected their-their not only their country, but their but their, you know, they were there. They were selling their fellow soldiers. That is, of course heroic to do. And I think people and I, I think that, you know, the people who risked a lot of, you know, a lot to protest the war are heroic in my mind, too. Because I think it was, in fact, in a legal war, and it should not have been fought. So yeah, I think there is room for heroism in both camps. SM: 1:31:39 Yeah. And I think those Fulbright hearings with John Kerry and all the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, man, they played a major role and-and- HM: 1:31:48 -that I would agree with absolutely, yeah-yeah. Yep. SM: 1:31:51 And I got one last, I just want to say something Dean Kahler is an unbelievable person. I have met him a couple times. And he is on my Facebook, I do not talk to him at all. But he is, what a great human being, oh my God. And he is so sensible in everything he states and when he talks about any subject, and I, when he when he talked about the-the guns that were in Kent State, and again, it was you again, it is a tremendous context that you put in with him and his words, that, you know, I am a hunter. I knew, I knew they had bullets and those guns if you see a weapon, you know, they have bullets, but I thought they protect me. HM: 1:32:34 Yes, I know. Isn't that something? Oh, my God. Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah. [crosstalk] That overwhelmed me when you said that. I agree. SM: 1:32:42 Every time you have Dean in the book, it is you better be listening. HM: 1:32:49 And to go through what he has gone through and not be bitter, I think is a triumph of the human spirit. SM: 1:32:54 My last question is always something like this, I want you to go to the very last page to 228. And I just had one thing to add after you if you could read that last paragraph where it says here. HM: 1:33:14 Let me get my glasses on. Okay, here we are here. Here are those of final thought the best thing that could happen for those who still carry the Kent State shootings, or the Vietnam War, gratingly close to their hearts is to get beyond who did what, when. In an interview during the 20, 20th anniversary commemoration in 1990, Janice Murray Wesco talked about an earlier speaker who had vowed she would never forgive, forgive, quote, “It tore my heart out, I will never forget. And I think there are real important lessons with this. But if there is no forgiveness, there is no healing, and the murder goes on forever.” Then I added on then at the end- SM: 1:33:52 That is very [inaudible] HM: 1:33:54 -that she blew me away that interview and then I talked to her. And she just, she was quite something. She is a she is a real person. SM: 1:34:03 My last question is this. HM: 1:34:04 Yeah. SM: 1:34:06 People that are going to be listening to this tape could be 50 years from now. HM: 1:34:10 Yes. SM: 1:34:10 What message would you like to deliver to young people, high school students, college students, and even all Americans and people around the world? What lesson would you like to pass on to them for them not to forget? HM: 1:34:28 Do not be afraid to stand up for what you know is right. SM: 1:34:32 Now, that is good. HM: 1:34:35 Okay. I want to have to think about that. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Okay. SM: 1:34:41 We are done. I want to thank you very much of I have been interviewing Howard Means the book is 67 Shots Kent State and the End of American Innocence. And thank you very much. HM: 1:34:56 Okay, thanks. See, this is a lot of fun. SM: 1:34:57 And we will be emailing you with the video as soon as possible. HM: 1:35:02 Okay. SM: 1:35:02 Okay thank you for taking the time have a great day, bye now. HM: 1:35:06 Thank you. You do the same, bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Howard Means https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4525b62ca2a901b7dfdaa444139be635.jpeg 2a5a8b3dbca90c992965d74960ee2e44 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d57cb0b3669fed6f8a8f7e103d444924.mp3 bdf7a7d568a10675367e38f1ead59ad6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 23 June 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Howard Ruffner Biographical Text Howard Ruffner was born in Cleveland, Ohio. After high school, he joined the Air Force in 1965. His experience with photography started when he worked at the Air Force headquarters in Waco, Texas. After leaving the Air Force, he started college in 1969. While studying at Kent State University, Ruffner started working as a photographer for the university's student newspaper. He was a college sophomore when the shootings of May 4, 1970, occurred. He witnessed and documented this event and his photographs appeared on the cover of <em>Life</em>. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:28:20 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Date of Digitization 23 June 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Kent State shooting; Students; Pictures; National guard; Campus:&nbsp; Taylor Hall; Protest; Photographs; Yearbook; Kent State University; Building; Guard; Photographer; Film; Fire. 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If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Howard Ruffner Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 23 June 2022 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 Alright, can you hear me? HF: 00:03 No, I can hear you fine. SM: 00:04 Okay. Thanks, Howard. I start out, could you talk about your growing up years, where you grew up? What your parents did for a living, where you went to high school, your early interests? And were you the first to go to college in your family, that kind of stuff? HF: 00:20 Well, my name is Howard Ruffner. I was born in Cleveland, Ohio. I grew up in Lakewood, Ohio, attended Lakewood High School. And while I was a student, I worked my sophomore, junior, and senior years after school at various retail establishments in the Lakewood area. As far as growing up, I am the oldest of seven boys, all born eight years apart. And my dad was the general manager for a place that actually made waterproof paper and film. And, he never owned a car. So, the furthest we ever got was any place was any, anywhere anybody would take us. So growing up in Lakewood, we walked to school everywhere. And I graduated school in 1964, spent about a year after that working, and taking an extension course at Ohio State University at the same high school and then decided after that summer, almost a year later from graduation. A friend of mine interested in the Air Force and asked if I wanted to go with him. And I said, "You know what sounds like a good idea." So I enlisted the Air Force in May of 1965, and spent two years in Waco, Texas, and about almost a little over a year and a half in the Philippines as a T.V. director. SM: 02:03 Wow. HF: 02:04 So, when I came back to the states in December of (19)68. I went back to my old job where I was working as a railroad clerk in the accounting department. I worked there until March of (19)69 when I took a leave of absence and, started university at the beginning of March 1969. SM: 02:33 Well, now your parents, you say your dad did not have a car now- HF: 02:39 Right. SM: 02:40 -now at home, did you ever talk over the table about what was going on in America, like the Vietnam War, civil rights, a lot of the movements that were going on? HF: 02:53 We talked about the Vietnam War in terms of being drafted and that kind of effort there. The, I was the, by the way, I was the first person in our family to graduate from high school. And I was the first person to attend college and graduate from college, not the only one. And all of my brothers went to Lakewood High School for college. My parents they did not own a car, but we got along quite well. He bought a house in Lakewood, Ohio, and it could have been a more, could not have been a better location because it was walkable to all the schools we had to go to. Of course that back then walkable was a mile and a half, right? Today. It is today it is two blocks. Even if you go to school today, and it is two blocks away, somebody walks with you. So we did everything alone, right. My first interest my first interest in photography, even though I worked in a camera shop in Lakewood, Ohio for a year I never took a picture never owned a camera. My first experience with photography was when I was in the Air Force, I worked in the Information Office at a headquarters that headquarters trunk Air Force in Waco, Texas. And I did PR releases and like photographer assigned to that base got me interested in photography and set out with a four by five camera taking, taking some pictures of people and stuff like that. So he my first interest became when I got involved with writing press releases and then when they take photographs of people coming back from Vietnam or different parts of the world. SM: 04:47 Well, you were in the military at that time for that period before you went to Kent State. Did you ever experience [crosstalk], go ahead. HF: 04:57 No, I, I made a conscious decision to join the Air Force and realizing that I did not have any way I was going to keep a deferment going. And back then in 1965, if you were drafted- SM: 05:10 Yes. HF: 05:10 -you just got into a line and the person in charge of the line would look at you and say, "You know, we did not get enough recruits the marine, so you are a Marine, or you are a Coast Guard- SM: 05:20 [chuckles] HF: 05:20 -go to the Navy. I did not want to have any of those choices put on me. So I made my own choice. SM: 05:28 That is good you know, that, you are still wearing a uniform at that time. Did you ever experience the anti-war protesters, you know expressing feelings toward people in the uniform, yours or others? HF: 05:42 Not while I was in Waco, Texas, no. SM: 05:46 And- HF: 05:46 Never happened. SM: 05:47 -when you picked on Kent State, what was it about Kent State that, why did you pick that school? HF: 05:55 Well, a couple of reasons. One it was, was relatively close to home, which did not matter because I was not going to be going home anyway. Two it was a state school and I could afford it with the G.I. Bill. And three because it had a strong broadcast program and I wanted to continue my broadcasting work that I started in the service. And I had always, in high school, I did record house with two of my friends, we were always involved with radio. And that was just a natural thing for me to want to be, stay in the media. And that is why I picked Kent State. SM: 06:32 You picked a great school. Yeah, I did not go there. But I tell you, I have visited enough to know what a great university it is. And certainly the students that come from it, having known a lot of the people from the remembrance events. It is a great school. I, obviously, I am going to ask some political questions, too, because you served in the military, you did not go to Vietnam, but you did have concerns. Did you have concerns about America's role in the war? And were you for or against the war? And did you support Vietnam Veterans Against the War, when they came home and like John Kerry, and did those hearings before Fulbright's committee on the Foreign Relations Committee talking about their experiences and how we must stop the war? Your thoughts on any of that? HF: 07:20 I was not for the war. I did not understand why we were in that war, respect to those people who had to go and make their sacrifice. I did not join a protest group per se, because I maintain myself as a journalist first after having gone through the Armed Forces Radio and Television Journalism School. And, so I was against the war. I supported the people against the war. But I maintained my objectivity by being a photographer and reporting on what I saw. SM: 08:14 And what- HF: 08:15 There were no protests in say, Waco, Texas, we took a bus to downtown Texas, downtown Waco every day, and there were never any protests. And in the Philippines, all we did was we heard about things, because I was in the news department over there and quad forces GB. We have heard about the news and what was going on. But it was, did not have much to do with us. We were surprised at things like the Democratic Convention, prior to (19)68, and a variety of things. And when I came back to the states, I came back to Denver, Colorado, and I saw people that were obviously against the war. And it was, it was surprising to me, it was a, I came back to a different culture than when I left. SM: 09:06 Wow. When you were at Kent State, I think you took those pictures on the weekend of April 30 to May 4, 1970. You had already been a student there for one year. And I think you were involved in the student newspaper and maybe the yearbook as well. Could you talk about your very first year at Kent State and what it was like? Were there protests going on, even then, number one? And number two, your experiences with the newspaper and photography? HF: 09:36 Well so, I started at Kent State, March of 1969. And I was unsure of my ability to be a student so I focused on getting my grades and getting stuff before I decided to do anything photographically. And a little after, after midterms for the first semester, first quarter there I thought, "Well, I think I can handle this. So, I need to find a place that offers free film in a dark room." And I did not go to the newspaper, I went to the yearbook office. And I was immediately told, "Sure, have some film and take some pictures." So, I was more aligned with the student yearbook, then the newspaper, although I did do some work for the newspaper. And my second year there after working on the yearbook for the first year, I became editor of the yearbook my junior year at Kent State, and put out the yearbook that had the stars, the red and white stripes, and the protest story inside of it. SM: 10:45 Now, some- HF: 10:47 Go ahead. SM: 10:48 -some of your early photographs, not talking about the protests. You take general shots all over campus or in the community or? HF: 10:56 Well the yearbook staff did not limit my ability to take pictures as I was still learning a lot of different things about photography. So, and I was not involved in any relationships. So, my only focus was getting great and getting an opportunity to take pictures of different groups, different things, gymnastics, rugby, sports. I took pictures of the homecoming queens. I took pictures of anything, all day long, and sometimes there were assignments from the yearbook staff to take pictures of a fraternity or sorority, or get this, or that. But other than that, pretty much left up to my own. And in the 1970 yearbook, you will see a lot more of my work as I was doing photography pretty much, all the time. I mean, any place that can give you a free film back then and a dark room, it was heaven sent. SM: 12:02 That is great. Do you still have any your early photos of, before the tragedy at Kent State? HF: 12:10 I do and the university does. SM: 12:12 Good. HF: 12:13 We have got all the yearbook, photographs and stuff. SM: 12:15 Super, super. In 1970, your background states that you became a stringer for Life Magazine, and covered the entire weekend from April 30th to May 4th. Could you just describe some of the pictures you took? You know, just, just some of the pictures that you remember taking of not only the protesters but also of the National Guard, people, politicians who came. Most importantly, in this particular one, we were more than the pictures. What were you, personally experiencing, you were only a sophomore, and you were a photographer, and you were wanting to take pictures? But this is, I do not know if you were thinking this was a historic happening at that time, but it was. HF: 13:10 Well, first let us get the record set straight here. I liked the pictures from May 1st until May 4th. And I did not become a stringer for Life magazine until the morning of May 4th. And being on campus, Kent State is a suitcase campus, a lot of students go home to visit friends, be with family, or to do a part time job. And so on the weekends, it was a pretty empty place. But, things were happening on campus that were unusual and for me, that was just another opportunity to take pictures and I did not, I did not need an assignment, and I was not thinking anything other than the fact that this is something that is happening and it needs to be recorded and my journalistic instincts said, take pictures because what else are you going to do with your time? So, I was not looking for any kind of historic event or anything like that. So what, what happened was over the weekend, May 1, I took pictures of the bearing of, bearing of the Constitution by the history graduate students. And that was pretty, non-event, 600-1000 students showed up, listened to them at noon. And by the time lunch hour was about to end, the people who organized the bearing of the Constitution realized there was a looser crowd, it was Friday. So they said, "Let us redo this on Monday. Let us go back and revisit what Nixon did and what the Vietnam War is doing, and the Constitution." And so, they were retired from that event waiting to call again on May 4th. They knew that they could not keep a crowd on May 1st, after school, or on the weekend because we would be going home. So, Friday, I did not take any pictures of downtown camp even though I did not, I did not know that, what was going on down there. I did not leave campus, but on Saturday morning, there were lots of rumors, and things that were supposed to happen or might happen about the ROTC building. So, I just followed people around and took pictures during the day. Some pictures that, not that much happened until the school set up marshals, because there was a curfew set on Friday night about being in town Friday night, and they were concerned about what was going on. The curfew extended to the university. And that evening, is when the ROTC building was burned down. I was with the editor of the Daily 10 stator. And before the building actually caught fire, we were there. But he said, "Let us go to, let us go to town." He said, "I heard that the National Guard are already in town." So, we ran down the hill or we kind of walked down the hill toward town and halfway downtown, halfway off campus, we were met by three National Guardsmen with fixed bayonets who came out and stopped us from going into town. And they asked us, "Why, where were we going?" Bill showed his press pass and we both were allowed to leave campus and then come back. We came back as the ROTC building was burning. And I did not get any pictures of that. I did not have the right equipment, flash, or rotation. But I stayed up until two or three in the morning, taking pictures of the fireman putting out the final embers of the building. And took some pictures of people in their dorms, standing, looking outside, looking to see what was happening because about two o'clock in the morning, the National Guard showed up on campus. And I can remember that distinctly because I was surprised to see these, or what I called "half-track," vehicle leading the National Guard onto the campus and surrounding the ROTC building. And I took several pictures of that, that were published in the yearbook and published in my book. The pictures there because I had to, I had to document what was going on. So, about two or three o'clock in the morning, Saturday, which would be Sunday morning. I went back to my dorm, we got up early because I heard that governor, when I got up on Sunday morning I heard that Governor Rhodes might be showing up on campus. And I walked around campus and I took pictures of the ROTC building. People returning to campus, even Saturday, {inaudible]. So this is Saturday, Sunday morning, and Governor Rhodes did show up, he arrived by helicopter or something by the airport. And I went with other photographers and we met in, at the ROTC building with General DeCorso and Mayor Cetrom, and also took numerous photographs of that. Drove to an elementary school where the National Guard were bivouacked, and we took, I took a few pictures there. And then, Sunday was pretty much quiet for me in terms of walking around the campus and just taking pictures here and there. The guards were pretty quiet. Students were interacting with the guard in a way that seemed very friendly. One of the questions I have asked myself is, "Why would a parent bring their students to a campus with nearly 2000 national guards on it, in campus and around town, and be comfortable with that?" Then I thought about it, and I thought, "You know what, they probably felt that because the National Guard was there the, the rioters and the people who were causing the problems were taken care of, and their students would be safe with the National Guard," kind of an oxymoron, if you think about it. SM: 20:23 Right-right. HF: 20:25 It did not work out that way. So Sunday, I know that there was several gatherings of students in different locations, one by the Music of Speech building where I was, that is where we got tear gassed, so we had helicopters flying over our heads. And then there was a [inaudible], and there was a curfew on campus, but students found a way to get off campus, and head up toward the Main and Water Street or on the major intersections of downtown Kent. And I, I followed them out there and I got pictures of them sitting. And the, the whole problem with all that was going on at Kent State was the lack of communication. People today, that remember that we did not have cell phones, we did not have a T.V. in every room. People did not have the kind of information at our fingertips that we have today. And the students who went downtown and sat in the center of the street, asked for one thing, they asked for somebody, a representative from the school to show up and explain what was happening, who was in control. No one was, no one ever showed up. The guard shortened the curfew, and forced the students back onto campus earlier than the original curfew had been set up. They just made the unilateral decision to move students out of downtown Kent and back onto the campus, that Sunday evening. And I have followed students, some students had been banned, and they were in, taken into fraternity houses or, mostly fraternity houses. And I was told I could not come in because they had a wounded student in there, and so I just proceeded back to my dorm until Monday morning. Monday, about 9:30, 10 o'clock, I wandered over to the student newspaper office in Taylor Hall. And it was fairly quiet. We talked about what was going on. But then there was a phone call from Life Magazine, Chicago office, the woman on the phone asked if there was a photographer there who had some pictures from the weekend, and if she could talk to him. So, I was the only photographer who was during the whole weekend, that Bill can remember. So, he gave me the phone and they asked if I would send some prints that day of the weekend. And would I mind taking some pictures of the, whatever happened on Monday, and I agreed to take pictures on Monday, and send some pictures of that evening. That is how I became a stringer for Life Magazine that day, and you are right that, that does change your perspective, even though I-I was doing it on my own without any motivation other than just to capture images of what was going on. Now that Life magazine had given me an assignment, it made it more, gave me more focus. And one of the things that I had done earlier in the week on Saturday, made sure to get a press pass from Major Jones who was with a National Guard. So, I had a National Guard press pass that would allow me to move in and out of the lines, and that is what helped me on May 4th. SM: 24:16 Wow. Now you were, May 4th, when did you take your first picture on May 4th, approximately what time and where were you, when? HF: 24:34 [chuckles] Oh, it had been between 11:00 and 11:30, I was just walking down the hill in front of Taylor Hall and took a picture of the people standing in front of Taylor Hall. And then, I got down a little further and took a picture, a couple pictures of the crowd standing by the victory bell, and I took a few more pictures of that area. And then I thought, you know, there is only so many pictures, I can take of the students here. So, I might as well use my press pass to go down behind the National Guard because, the assignment, and I need to show both sides of the story, and at least see what the National Guard is doing. So, I walk down behind the National Guard lines, showed my press, press pass, had no problems. And all sudden, you realize it was a bigger deal than, than people might have thought it was because local T.V. stations from Cleveland were there, a national reporter named Mike Pappas was there. And they were all very interested in what was going on. I just stood and took pictures with the National Guard with their weapons, with their band, fixed band, [inaudible] ones. As they marched, as they drill, not drill, but as they gathered by the front of the ROTC building and we were about ready to go uphill. All this happened between 11:30 and say, 12:15. And around, around 12:15 or so, a jeep pulled up near the crowd and said, "You need to disperse and leave this area immediately. This gathering is not permitted, you need to leave this area immediately. Please disperse." And, the sad thing is that there was nothing going on other than students were chanting, and giving the guard the finger, and throwing stones that fell way short of the 300 or so yards that the National Guard was standing away from them. And there was no, there was no riot involved, there was no rushing of students at anything. And shortly thereafter, that is when the guard was told, "We need to break up this crowd." Now this goes back to the same situation, on Friday, May 1st, had the crowd been allowed to wait until one o'clock instead of 12:30, probably would have broken up by itself it already was divided. There was on the ground, maybe 3 to 500 students who are actual protesters, but behind them were people who are either on the way to class, or just observing. And then on top of that, there was another layer of people just observing, some people who are supporting them, but you know, on a campus of 18,000 students, you really only had 3 to 500 students were protesting, and whoever else was in that area was just an observer. And so, the guy decided to move up the hill and disperse the crowd. And I believe they did this without any reconnaissance because they had no idea how big the campus was. And they went up both sides of Taylor Hall to one side between Johnson Hall and Taylor Hall to Prentice Hall, Taylor Hall on the left. They chased students up there and then they get themselves trapped in a football field, the practice football field, which has a chain link fence that goes around three sides. And they had to make a decision as to how they were going to, what they were going to do next in terms of dispersing the crowd or not. So, there was a crowd of students across the street from the practice football field, and there was a street that separated the two, and the guard had a choice of going back down to the practice, to the ROTC building area through Prentice Hall and Taylor Hall. Or, to again confront the students and cause them to just disperse by going straight ahead and then making a right hand turn and going down between Johnson and Taylor Hall. Well, the interesting part is that to go up to Johnson and Taylor Hall would mean that they would have to climb an elevation of about 20 feet, would put them in a higher elevations than the parking lot and the practice football field. And, as they made their climb, that is the place. That is the point at which, between Taylor Hall and the pagoda structure, Guardsmen who somehow got to the very back of the line was moving up the hill, turned, some kneeled down a little bit, and fired their weapons. And I was about 80 feet in front of them and to the, to the side, John Clary, and Joe Lewis, who were within an area that I was within, and they were both shot. So, that was a pretty eye-opening experience- SM: 26:56 Wow. HF: 26:57 -because no one expected that and no one expected live ammunition. Even if they turned and fired, it was, they were shooting blanks, or shooting, maybe rubber bullets. I grabbed my cameras and knelt down on top of this grating in front of Taylor Hall. And when I started to get up, I was told, "Stay down, sit down, oh my god, they are shooting real bullets. People are bleeding up here. So, do not get up." SM: 31:14 Wow. HF: 31:15 So, that is how that event took place, pretty, pretty frightening that they actually shot real bullets. And again, I, I kind of sucked my emotions and just let my camera work for me because I took a picture of Joe Lewis, took a picture of John Clary, I got up and I started walking down towards the practice football field. I was told by some girls not to take pictures, I said, "No, my job is to take the pictures, somebody has to document this." And that is when I went down, I saw Jeffrey Miller lying in the street. And I turned to my right a little bit and I saw Mary Vecchio, I took several photographs of her, those appeared in Life Magazine. And I kept taking pictures of people, and their reactions to what had just happened. And it was, just an unreal experience walking around campus at that point in time- SM: 32:20 Oh man. HF: 32:20 -because nobody knew what was going to happen next. And you know, Alan Frank said it best when he said, you know, "Stay down, do not let, I cannot be a part of this. Do not let them shoot any more of you." Because the guard was scattered over the campus then, if you, if you take a careful look at some of the photographs, and not just mine, but many of them, you will see that even though the students are like in a huddle in a big circle, someplace. If you look close enough, you will see the guard, not too far away. SM: 32:56 Wow. HF: 32:57 And that was, that was what was scary, so. SM: 33:01 Did it ever, during this terrible, terrible happening, ask yourself, "Where is, where is the leadership of this campus? Where is the administration? Where are they?" And, and I, and then also, correct me if I am wrong, it was my, my information is that they were protesting against the expansion of the war into Cambodia. And that was initially, and then when the guard came on campus and showed their, their stuff that they were upset that the National Guard had, had come on to their campus. So, it was as much protesting against the war as it was against the, the National Guard being on their campus. And, and then the shooting. Oh, my God. Just your thoughts on that. Where was the administration? HF: 34:03 Well, my understanding is that the president of the university had just returned from a trip, I think it was to Iowa, and he was now having, during this time having lunch with General del Corso, a local restaurant. And the administration had more or less given control of the university to the governor and to the National Guard. SM: 34:31 Unbelievable. HF: 34:31 And, and the students. Like I said the evening before, I had asked for somebody from the administration to talk to them, and no one came forward. So the administration, from my standpoint, failed because they did not have control of the campus. They let the campus becoming military state and gave up. If you look at the pictures, even the administration building had National Guardsmen in front of the main door letting people in or out, so. SM: 35:04 Yeah, that is, this is an understatement. That was a massive failure in leadership at the administration level of the university, but it does show, which you already mentioned Mr. Frank and Mr. Lewis and others, faculty members who, who came to the scene, and were there with the students and trying to bring some sort of peace, and you know caring about the students. I mean, that says a lot about your faculty on campus. They deeply cared about the students that they were teaching. Yet, the administration was not there caring about the students that have applied and yeah, it just it was a terrible happening. And were you personally upset with the National Guard because they were on campus? HF: 35:53 Oh, yeah, I thought it was, I thought it was abysmal to say the least. You know, I just had no idea why they were, why they were on campus, because the ROTC building was done. There did not seem to be any other rumors, or anything going on around, other things happening. And it just made no sense that the National Guard, and what also does not make any sense is, why did the National Guard have fixed bayonets- SM: 36:26 Yes! HF: 36:27 -the whole weekend? Fixed bayonets are for hand to hand combat, concentration, close range stuff. And this is, a college campus with students, why do you need to have a fixed bayonet? When the Ohio State [inaudible] came on campus, they had batons. That is all they had. I mean, that is all they carried in their hands. SM: 36:56 Wow. HF: 36:57 They did not need a fixed weapon of any kind to show that they had control of the situation. SM: 37:04 In the afterwards of the tragic, I am going to say, Alan would say the killings. And, you know, I know, even Dean and John and they would say the killings at Kent State, quit saying the tragedy, the killings at Kent State. HF: 37:20 Yeah. SM: 37:21 The thing is, who gave them that order? Who's the person responsible for telling them to have the, the bullets? I know, they had a lot of trials afterwards. But, did they ever come up with a final, who gave the final order for that? HF: 37:39 To have weapons loaded? SM: 37:40 Yes. HF: 37:43 That is not something I can address. I do not know who gave them that order, or why they had fixed bayonets. I mean, they came off the trucker strike. And they had been shot at during the trucker strike, but did not shoot back. Here they were getting stones thrown at them that cannot even get close to them. And they, they fired back at students. A lot of unanswered questions, because no one knows. There is lots of rumors as to somebody gave an order to fire. But to me, it does not matter if somebody gave an order or not gave an order. Some people had it in their mind that they were going to turn to fire, and they did. SM: 38:34 Governor Roads being, being on campus did not help the situation. I know he is running for office and- HF: 38:41 Yeah, I forgot about that. SM: 38:43 Yeah, and he was talking law and order. Well, guess who talked law and order, it was President Nixon and Spiro Agnew, who were going all over the country making comments about any other protesters, they were. So you know, he came and he was elected, in part because he used law and order as one of his- the issues that he was going to come into the presidency for. And because there is a lot of activism going all over the country, and civil rights, and you know all the movements that were happening, certainly the anti-war movement in Vietnam, and here, you know, you can look the, I do not know how the president of Kent State could have survived his presidency. If he was sitting down, in downtown and he was out of town, and he comes in town, and he was sitting with a military leader, and not sending anyone in his place to kind of calm students down, or talk with a National Guard, or talk with anybody in authority. The governor, you know, it boggles the mind, basically. HF: 39:47 He had given up his authority. I need to take a break for five minutes. SM: 39:53 Okay, let me turn my tape off here and I will leave my- HF: 39:58 I will be right back. SM: 39:58 -yep. Okay, we are all set. Yep. One of the questions I wanted to ask you is that, I read someplace that you were working on taking pictures, but you even gave a camera to John Philo? HF: 40:16 So [crosstalk], as the National Guard dispersed the crowd in front of Taylor Hall, after the crowd was already gone the, National Guard was on both sides of Taylor Hall. John Philo and I met at the base of the hill, [inaudible] hill. And John said, "You have an extra lens I could borrow, I have only got a wide-angle lens," and I said, "I have got a short telephoto lens." So, I gave him my telephoto lens to use. And he took that, and then he said he was going to go off the left side and I said, "I will go off the right side." And then we split, and we just continued covering the event. So yeah, that was a true story. And I subsequently gave that lens to Kent State University, so. SM: 41:15 Wow. HF: 41:16 Anyway, so the whole [crosstalk], huh? SM: 41:20 That and he used that camera to take that picture that won the Pulitzer Prize, right? HF: 41:25 Yeah, he used that lens. SM: 41:27 Wow. I hope you he thanked you. [laughter] HF: 41:32 He did. SM: 41:34 Now, you were, I am just curious about what the student newspaper staff was doing at the time that you were taking pictures because obviously they were around someplace, recording all this. Did the, in the student newspapers over a several day period, before the campus was shut down, were they writing opinion pieces or articles on what was going on? HF: 41:58 I could tell you I was not involved. SM: 42:00 Alright. HF: 42:02 Seriously, I was I, so after the, taking pictures that day, and they told us that the university was closed. I continued to take pictures of students as they marched or walked toward their dormitories to get their equipment and their gear, clothing, books, whatever they needed, to leave campus. I stayed until about six or six-thirty, I had to call Life Magazine back to find out what they wanted me to do with my film and the stuff I, the pictures I had taken. And I was told to put everything in a box, they bought a seat for it on an airplane out of Akron. And to, give it to somebody at the, just get it there and put it on the plane and they would get it in Chicago. And so, I did not have a car. So, one of my photographer friends, Fetterman drove me to the airport and later drove me home that night. So, I was busy getting my own stuff out of there. And, again, when we talked about the campus closing, I mean, people did not have cell phones, we did not have Uber, they had to find their own way home. And as you know, the people said the telephone lines on campus were not working. So, it was it was a tough situation for lots of students, how to get ahold of their parents, or find a way to get into town, get a bus, get something. I am sure there was some help that I did not know about because I was worrying about my own way of getting around. And that was, that was a big issue. And then the, then after everybody left, the National Guard searched all that rooms for anything that would be incriminating, and took any film, or anything that would be something that they thought they could use later. SM: 44:15 They went into the residence halls and did that? HF: 44:18 Yes, all the residence halls. SM: 44:20 I did not know that. HF: 44:22 Yeah, I think you could check with somebody else on that, but verify the fact that the rooms were searched and anybody who left a camera or left film, unexposed film, that was taken. SM: 44:34 Well that is another legal issue, that the university, no university should allow that to ever happen. Wow. Well, again, lack of leadership there at the school protecting the rights of students and their property, my goodness. Did you know any other students, any of the students who were killed or wounded at Kent State before this tragedy? HF: 44:58 I did not know any of the students who were killed at Kent State or any of the students who are wounded. I got to know Dean Kahler when he, I donated some large prints to the university. And Dean came up to me and said, "You know, that is the last photograph of me standing." So, it was taken before the shooting, and it was taken just, you know, while the crowd was growing. So, that is how Dean and I connected. But other than that, I did not know Alan Canfora, even though I know I have got pictures of him with the black flag. Alison Krauss, I had taken pictures of in 1969, when she helped protest the war on Vietnam by leading a group marched through downtown, the city of Kent. I learned of all these people through my photographs, and it is quite sad. SM: 45:36 Right. Now John- HF: 46:06 To know that, you- SM: 46:07 -you go ahead. HF: 46:08 -go ahead. SM: 46:08 No, you go ahead. HF: 46:09 You know, it is quite sad to look at the pictures. I gave a talk at Hanoi University in 2016, and I showed them a PowerPoint. And in the PowerPoint, I would show students with books in their arms and then I will say, "Oh, that is Sandra Scheuer. She is going to be dead in 20 minutes. That is William Schroeder, he is going to die in 25 minutes." SM: 46:38 Woah. HF: 46:39 And it brought tears to the students at the university because they realized the sacrifice that some students made to help in the war in Vietnam. SM: 46:49 Wow, that was powerful. Your book is full of unbelievable pictures. And I know it is hard to pick, but I am going to ask you to pick, if you can, just a few of the ones that you are most proud of, or the ones that stand out in your mind of the, the best picture you took on the National Guard, you took a lot of them, is there one that stands out? HF: 47:16 Well, it stands out would be like, for them, there was four heads in the back of their heads [inaudible] as they marched toward the guard that stand out to me. There was, there was a couple of them there. SM: 47:38 How about- HF: 47:39 Well there is one of them, in downtown Kent that is a silhouette of the National Guard with cross bayonets and in front of a service station window, and you can see bayonets in the air and their silhouettes. SM: 47:51 Wow. HF: 47:51 It was the day before. SM: 47:55 How about the best pictures of the protesters? HF: 48:03 Well, the crowd shot that is, just shows them standing there, Mary Beko with her dog, you can see just with this raised finger, yeah just that, the beginning crowd shots there. And the guard shot that stands out to me that, is one of those that was taken just as they fired their weapons because they fired, and I took a picture of them as they turned and fired. And then I got down but, as I am getting down you will see in the picture that there is one guy who looks like he has got his gun aimed for me so that stands out a lot. SM: 48:48 Did you think you were a goner? HF: 48:51 Well I know that I was standing up there and I had a, back then I had an old 200-millimeter lens which stands out pretty far, and another lens in my camera and I thought you know, "I probably look pretty silly up here, look like a target." So, I turned and went down on my knees, and. SM: 49:08 Wow. HF: 49:09 So no, but I was 6, I was only 20 feet behind, I think it was Joe Lewis, who was the first one shot. He was supposed to stand 60 feet. I was 80 feet. So- SM: 49:21 Now- HF: 49:22 -yeah, I was quiet, close enough. SM: 49:24 How about, are there any of the state troopers and the, you know the-the politicians that came to stand out? HF: 49:35 Well, yeah, they have got some nice, she would call, nice journalistic images of Governor Rhodes inspecting the ROTC building and standing with Mayor Cetrom, and General del Corso. So, got other pictures that stand out, what are this? SM: 49:58 How about the best of the downtown shots and the, or the campus shots, just when? HF: 50:04 Oh, downtown. We are using the light of the helicopters to take a picture of the students sitting down, downtown. SM: 50:12 Wow. HF: 50:13 That stands out to me. It did not have you know, back then, the equipment was a little bit different than it is today too. So, you had to be a little more in touch with your equipment, than, than that so, you did not have time to run up and take light meter readings, or even if you had a camera with a light meter in it. It is still a lot of guesswork. SM: 50:36 Summers in the last couple of years you met with John Cleary. Now, did you? Did you stay in touch with John, when he saw that picture? Did you stay in touch with John over the years, or was this kind of a first meeting? HF: 50:51 We met for the first time with at Kent State University in 2019 when I, when I, when I shared my book, we had a book signing ceremony. Yeah, so that is the first time I met him. And I shared with him some more pictures that I had of him that were never published. SM: 51:10 Wow. HF: 51:11 So yeah, John and I, we stay in touch on Facebook, but we are not, you know, buddies, in that sense. We are just good. We just have something mutual in common that we both respect and both understand. SM: 51:24 Right. What happened to your film after it was shipped off? Because you, I guess that they had to, you did not know what the pictures were. I mean, you had not seen them. HF: 51:38 Oh that is right. SM: 51:39 So, what happened to your pictures? And most importantly, and I am so pleased that they came back to you, and they are yours. HF: 51:49 So here is two stories. One, I had a handful of negatives that I gave to the life reporter that were taken between 1969 and, and they were actually probably all 1969, and maybe a few from the first, no, I do not think anything from May 1, but 1969. And they have been lost and I am lucky I found some. But the film, I just put in a box, I sent to Life Magazine, they called me at two o'clock in the morning to tell me they could not find it. Then, they called me an hour or two hours later and told me they finally got the box of film, and then we were going to send her off via processing. I think it was about a week later, not quite a week later, maybe three days, two or three days. I got a call again, real early in the morning, one or two o'clock in the morning saying that one of the photographs that I had taken was going to be used for the cover of Life Magazine. And that was interesting, because I had not seen any of the negatives, the FBI had come to my house, asking to see all my prints. And I had yet to see anything other than the cover of Life Magazine and the images inside. And the fact that they put a picture of me inside of the editors, editors page. The, the photographs, were in the hands of Life Magazine, and then the FBI came to my house when they wanted me to identify who they thought were radicals on campus. And you know, a lot of people get concerned about what the FBI is going to do. But in this particular case, the truth stands for itself. I mean, you are not going to, no one is going to get identified as a radical that I know because, they are not. But the FBI kept demanding and seeing my negatives, and my pictures and I told him, I said, "You know, they are not mine. They belong to Life Magazine, and I have not seen any of them. And as they left my house, they said, "Well if that is what you want to do with your gov. money, Mr. Ruffner." And because I never agreed to share them with them I guess. Life Magazine, Life Magazine made a decision that they did want to get involved with, you know, in a case about having the FBI come to them and say they want the negative, and the prints, and they did not want to get involved with all that stuff. So, they sent me a photo of the negative that they had of mine, and actually a friend of somebody else's too. That, they just sent me a box, full of prints of every negative, and they sent me the negatives, and they said, "We are going to let you handle this." So, it was my deal. SM: 55:04 Wow. HF: 55:08 It was a big deal. I mean, having all those, it was the first time I saw them, so I obviously took my time and went through all the pictures, and looked at them in quite amazement as to what I actually had. Because even though you think you know what you have, when you are taking the pictures, you do not really know, so. And the fact that they chose one of mine for the cover, even though there were other people there who had similar photographs, it was quite a feather, so. SM: 55:37 Were there other photographers besides you and John Philo? HF: 55:40 Oh, tons. Campus newspaper, photographer, the campus, campus photographer who worked for the University was there, two of them, they have pictures of John Cleary. Call it very, very similar to my pictures. I mean, any picture could have been used. So, yeah. SM: 56:03 Wow. Now, when it was all over, when the, May 4th, and people are going home, the school shut down, of course. You know, the shootings, as you well know, set a wave of protests all over the country, and anywhere close to 275-300 schools were truly affected by this. And as far as Kent State goes, how was the campus when you returned in the fall? I mean, and honestly, I want to know how you felt, because you are an individual student, you were still a sophomore. I know you might be a little older, because you served in the military. But still, you were a young, you were a young student, and you were doing your job. But now, you know that this is affected the entire nation. You got the Time, Newsweek out there. So, you are a part of history. As a young person, how did you deal with this? HF: 57:06 Well, let us start with fact that I kept coming back to the university before school started, because people would want to have a walk through. Rolling Stone wanted to walk through, this news group wanted to walk through. And I was one of the people they, they called to help walk people through the campus. And then, even though the campus was closed, and it did open for summer school, and I attended school summer school that year. And I took regular courses, and it was like nothing ever happened other than the fact that it did happen. Does that make sense? I mean, things went on as normal, was not, summer school is different than a regular university, regular university time. But yeah, I went onto school and then in the fall, fall started. I got involved. I was just selected to be the editor of the 1971 yearbook, which would include the, the killings of the poor students in the routing of the night. And it was my decision as to how to deal with that in the yearbook. And I do not know if you have seen the yearbook, but Kent has always been to me, a mild campus. It is not like Columbia's or other places where they have a lot of radicals who get up on their soapbox all the time. And it is a conservative school. So, I did the yearbook in a way that shows that the shootings interrupted what would have been a normal school year. I do not know if you have seen the yearbook or not. SM: 57:53 Yes. I have not, I have not seen the yearbook, no. HF: 59:04 Yeah, that is The Timeline. SM: 59:07 Okay. HF: 59:10 So yeah, that was quite-quite beautiful. SM: 59:15 You went and you stayed, you stayed with that yearbook till you graduated? HF: 59:25 I edited the yearbook that year, and I stayed with the yearbook, but did not do a whole lot my senior year. I did not do a lot of photography for it. I had already gotten, I have gotten married within that time, and my focus was on getting my grades, and graduating, and I graduated. I started to camp in March of 1969. And I graduated in December of (19)71. So, even editing the yearbook I got out of there fairly quickly. SM: 59:59 Yeah. When you did graduate, there were more trials to come at Kent State over the football field, the trials of the families who lost loved ones, lawsuits, and do you kind of cover that in any way? HF: 1:00:19 Let me say that. I was a witness of the Scranton Commission hearings at Kent State. Then I was the lead witness in the two civil cases in Cleveland, Ohio, against the guard, and I was the lead witness because I introduced all the photographic evidence. And it took three days on the witness stand. And the, the attorney for the National Guard was a very, very good attorney. And he was very difficult, but I introduced all that stuff. And then, and then when the second trial came, I was also the lead witness. And by the time I had finished, and the second witness was called, they had agreed to the settlement which they announced, which was the monetary settlement, and a letter by the National Guard that everybody else said there is an apology, but they, they disagree. So I, in second trial, I believe was in 1988. And I have to say that, Kent State has been part of my life every year since then, because of the, because I was in a unique position to have photographs for the entire weekend. I got calls from media, I got calls from eighth grade science history students who wanted to do, there is a history competition every year for eighth graders. I became involved and I am still involved as we are right now, still involved with the Kent State shootings. And, it has been a part of my entire life. SM: 1:02:21 Wow. It, what were the final results of those hearings? There was a- HF: 1:02:29 Well the National Guard awarded [crosstalk]- -it was against the National Guard and Governor Rhodes we do not want to forget that. And in the state of Ohio had to pay, I forget what it was right now. The total amount of money but and the, the primary amount of money was going to go to Dean Kahler because he had been living in a wheelchair for so long that it was felt that he should be given something to live on. And I think the total amount of money was over $450,000. Do you recall? I am not sure. But the families of the four that died, they were compensated, then. SM: 1:02:31 -yes. HF: 1:03:23 Yeah. SM: 1:03:24 Yeah. And all- HF: 1:03:26 They-they did not get much in return in terms of monetary. They, the idea was to get the guard to admit that they did something wrong. SM: 1:03:34 Right. HF: 1:03:35 And Dean Kahler got the majority of the settlements. SM: 1:03:39 The question, Howard, that you have probably been asked 100 times, maybe more, was the question that came up about maybe about, 12 years ago at one of the remembrance events that Alan Canfora opened up with, that they have a tape where somebody taped the person giving the order to shoot. Now, I do not know what has happened since that remembrance event. But, others said they thought they heard it too. Did, when you are there you are close, did you hear any money give the order? HF: 1:04:04 I did not hear anything from where I was. And I was as close as anybody. And like I said earlier, to me, it did not matter if-if there was an order because if there was an order, I only think there was a predetermined decision by a group of guardsmen to get to that point on the hill, which was the highest point on the campus at that place, and turn and fire because others behind them are totally surprised and if they say some things like though they heard a gunshot, well, everybody would have heard a gunshot. But even General Canterbury is in that photograph of the guard firing, and he looks totally surprised. So for me, it does not matter if somebody said fire or not. There was an action that required some kind of coordination between different folks to turn on fire. SM: 1:05:25 And they knew there were bullets in there too. HF: 1:05:30 Yeah, yep, they did. SM: 1:05:31 They knew they were not blanks. HF: 1:05:34 There were armor, some of them had armor piercing bullets because they went through the steel sculpture. SM: 1:05:39 Unbelievable. Yeah, that hole in this, yep, that whole skill sculpture is still there. After Kent State and let people know what your career what your what happened with your career beyond college. I think that is very important. HF: 1:05:56 Well, I went to work for, I was a photographer's assistant for a commercial photographer for almost a year. And when I decided that, that was not going to go anywhere, I chose to go to Ohio University to get a degree in something that was not production oriented, I wanted to get a degree in something that was not easy for me to do, like take pictures or run T.V. cameras. So, I got, I got my master's in communications research, which was statistics. So, and after that, I went and worked for cable T.V. for a while. And then, I did a little freelance photography and moved back to Cleveland and kind of traveled with Ohio Bell where I was a writer, photographer, and all-around PR type person, and did my career with AT&T in New York, New Jersey, retired in Denver, Colorado, in government affairs. But during that entire time, I can tell you that I did give many talks at Kent State at many different locations. So yeah, my career even though I did not pursue a photographic career in its traditional sense, while at AT&T I did a lot of photography, and made photography part of my job description regardless of what kind of job I had. So, did multimedia shows I did film, I did video, produced a lot of, wrote scripts. So yeah, I had a good career and, and having had the Life Magazine and the George Polk award for photojournalism, that certainly opened the doors and did not hurt me getting inside AT&T getting into AT&T in Ohio, giving me recognition for what I was doing. SM: 1:08:02 The thing is, I think it is great that you did this book, that it is connected to Kent State, that you are still going out, and speaking about it. These are, this is something that should never be forgotten in our history. And this is all important. One things from going, I did not go this year, because I had an operation, I wanted to go to the remembrance event. But, I think four years, I think was four years ago was my last one. But there were several, several remembrance events where some of the panels talked about the fact that the truth is still not known. And the truth is, you know, like, who gave the order, like your speculation about those possibly played plan by us, certain number of National Guard. It is the it is the unknown truth that still haunts the people who want to know the what really happened. And the truth needs to be known because of the four who died. And, and so I think that, I do not know, have you heard anything more about the person who came several years back when Alan was here regarding the shooting, and that somebody gave an order then he had a tape? HF: 1:09:15 Oh, there is, somebody found a tape. They sent it to an expert. That expert said he was able to unscramble the tape enough to actually here an order to fire. The person who, the audiologist who did that discovery has since passed away, which, I guess hurt their case about taking that to court and saying, "Here is my proof." But other than that there has been nothing else said about that tape in quite a while and I have to ask people, I mean, what? If somebody gave an order of fire, how does that change, anything? If there was no the order to fire, it is more of a conspiracy. So, this whole thing is going to go down like John F Kennedy. SM: 1:10:25 It is true. HF: 1:10:26 There is going to be rumors and myths about what really happened. But, you know, in this case, I know for a fact, as I sat there and witnessed it, as I stood there and witnessed it, the National Guard turned and fired, and I did not hear a shot before me, you will look at the evidence, there was nothing thrown at them to cause them to turn and fire. There is nothing on the ground. No, Kent State is a manicured campus. Taylor Hall is a manicured piece of property because it is one of the showcases on the University at the time. There is no rocks lying around, there is no, you know, so somebody is going to have to convince me otherwise. But I just feel that there is the conspiracy. And if you will notice that, if you go and look at all the records, you will notice that the people who turn and fire are almost all from the same unit, so. SM: 1:11:25 And of course, the National Guard, just like students, they are now a lot older, and many are dying. So, who were who were there, because time has a chance to affect everything. You still- HF: 1:11:44 Except the fact that those who turned and fire were older than the National Guard. SM: 1:11:50 What was their age? HF: 1:11:52 I could not tell you that, but, but they were a part of the 107 Calvary, and they were an older unit. SM: 1:11:58 Wow. Alright. You still stay in touch with John Philo? HF: 1:12:06 Not really. No, we-we, of course, we get together on Facebook like everybody else. But, he has his life and I have mine. We are both happy with that. SM: 1:12:19 In your future, have you, have you taken pictures that you are just as proud of as the ones at Kent State in your later career, and what would those pictures be? HF: 1:12:37 Yeah, I promised myself that the last picture published by me would not be a picture of Kent State. I had an opportunity to lead a group of people to China. And some of those were my favorite photographs of foundries in China. That is something not everybody would get an opportunity to do. So, I have continued my photographic work in different ways. The annual report for the Colorado Red Cross one year, and took pictures of people from Bosnia. So, I try to continue my photographic work in ways that will surpass, although it will change, but I do not want to be known only as a Kent State photographer. So, I have been putting a lot of my work on Getty Images right now. SM: 1:13:38 Oh okay. HF: 1:13:39 Kind of spread, I got many pictures while I was in the service of popular people like Bob Loeb, and Art Linkletter, Raquel Welch you know, so I have, with General Westmoreland. I worked for, so I, you know, I continue to do photography. And right now, I am not doing what photography, I am retired. My wife and I, I have seven grandsons, we were spending more time with our grandsons, and doing kind of family photography. Nothing. We are not doing it professionally. I am just doing it as a snapshot or snap-shotter. SM: 1:13:55 Wow. I just have a couple more questions here. They are general questions. And, many people say the killings at Kent State changed the lives, changed lives forever, especially if you were a college student in the, in the United States of America. It was a shock to the youthful Boomer generation like Pearl Harbor. And FDR's death was a shock to the greatest generation. It changed. It changed mine forever. I do not know if you knew this. Alan knew it real well that I was going I go to law school and I changed everything. And when that happened, I was a senior at Binghamton University, and I graduated 1970. And I wanted to go and become a college administrator. So that, what happened at Kent State or Jackson State never happened again, I played in, I would play my own small role in that. And my story is not, is pretty typical. What happened to Kent State, to me is historic in a way that, way beyond the people even participated in it. HF: 1:15:38 Oh yeah. SM: 1:15:38 Because many people have written histories about the (19)60s say that, that tragedy, at Kent State, at a college that was not a radical college, but it was, you know, it was not known for that. But it happened there. And that showed to Middle America, and too, that the war had to end. And so-so that is what from historians’ point of view, but also from an individual point of view. And obviously, this has shaped your life, like no other. Do you ever have flashbacks? HF: 1:16:14 No, I do not have time for flashbacks because everything is for me, for me it is always still too current. You know, it is like our conversation today. I remembered, I can feel it. But not as a flashback, it is as a real happening that I live with all the time. As far as how it changed things, one of the things I think it changed, in its, its colleges today no longer pretend to offer a liberal arts education. They are not looking for students to be liberal arts thinkers and be generalists in that sense. A lot of schools have given up their- a degree in a liberal arts field that does not have any workplace recommendation. So to me, colleges have changed they are more, you go to college to get a job, and you get to go, you get into a program that your first two years are your regular stuff. But then you are really focused on being an engineer, being an architect, being a political science, but a liberal arts part of colleges has really become, you do not see history majors as much anymore, or English majors. Therefore, there are different schools. SM: 1:17:41 Yes. That is a very good analysis, that is so true. What do you want your, go ahead. HF: 1:17:51 No, I just, nothing. SM: 1:17:53 What do you want your legacy to be? HF: 1:17:58 [chuckles] SM: 1:17:59 In your own words, what do you hope your legacy will be? HF: 1:18:02 That my book, on Ken State is a factual and truth telling book, because I wanted people to remember, for sharing the truth about something that was so horrific, and something that should never have happened, Kent State should never have happened. Sargent Snyder gives a talk at Kent State, and I got to hear it on a podcast once. And I disagree with it completely, because during the podcast, he says, "Just before the shooting, sometime before the shootings," he said, "Somebody decided to declare what was happening at Kent State. Students at one end, National Guard another end, somebody said this is a riot. Well, it was not a riot, but the National Guard was given permission then to go up and disperse the crowd, and because they had bayonets, and stuff and weapons, they can shoot people, and Governor Rhodes gave them that permission days ago and took advantage of it." But it should never have happened. There was never a riot. Students were at one end, guards another round. It is like it is like we have learned today, take time, let things fizzle out, and oftentimes and in very tense situations. So, the best thing to do is to let things fizzle out. That should have been what happened at Kent State and there was no need for anybody to die and no need for any of the guards to be shooting or they should, they should have said at that point in time. He should have said, "We have got this under control National Guard, you may pack up and leave your bags, leave and take your bags with you." It would have been fine. SM: 1:18:02 Yeah. HF: 1:18:25 Nothing would have happened. SM: 1:20:15 That is why the lack of leadership that we mentioned earlier that it was in the administration. I think one other thing is about Jackson State that happened, like about 10 days later. HF: 1:20:26 Yep. SM: 1:20:26 And I think Kent State is so right on the students who have been leading these remembrance events for a long time, are so ahead of America as a whole, because it was Kent State, who made sure that what happened in Jackson State is not forgotten either. And then what happens there toward African American students, and what happened at Kent State, which was predominately white students. They are all one. And even though they tried to say that the protest of Jackson State was about, about the Vietnam War, it was not about the Vietnam War, it was about racism. It was about the history of racism within that area, and Jean Jung bless his soul, came many years to campus, I met him I actually had dinner with him once when he was here on campus. And, you know, that is what Kent State should be remembered for. Also, with this tragedy is that they cared about another campus that went something, a Black college campus in Mississippi, and saw the linkage between the between the killings at their school and the killings at Kent. HF: 1:21:46 Undeserved with very little justification, no justification [chuckles]. SM: 1:21:56 Yeah, that, you know, I am interviewing another person on that later today, or tomorrow. I guess I am just some final thing. So who do you just a general question, I got three more, and that is it. Why, who was responsible for the Vietnam War? I know we went to war, and we can blame a president. But in your view, everything has dots. The history is about dots. And when Kent State happened, there was a dot directly to it linked to a Vietnam War, and to a president. But it was something, dots go back on this too. So your thoughts, what caused, who do you blame for the Vietnam War? HF: 1:22:40 I blame Nixon because, he did a lot of fakery stuff and stopped Johnson from ending the war. And you can read the history about that. But he, he did some things to cause the Vietnamese people to support his position and not go to peace talks as they had planned with Johnson. So, I blame him for continuing what he did. SM: 1:23:14 Could you also kind of talk about the great things that have happened to Kent State with respect to making that, where this happen a historic spot, not only to have the Kent State Senator, which is unbelievable. But, markers being placed making sure it is it is forever remembered in terms of remembrance. And it is historic, and just everything Kent State now in terms of the administration is unbelievable. And I-I know that they have had issues over the years, but there is no question when you hear Alan Canfora say positive things about an administration and then it has got to be good. [laughter] Because he went through many years, where there was not so good. But, just your thoughts on the site where this all happened and your thoughts as a graduate of Kent State, who went through this, that this spot where it happened is forever preserved for history? HF: 1:24:18 It has to be preserved for history because that is how we learn, and how we continue to grow. Cannot, it cannot be forgotten because we do not want to have a, it is like a T and square. It is something that should never happen again. And as long as we can remember what happened at Kent State, good chance that will not happen again. SM: 1:24:49 What is the number one lesson of Kent State and Jackson State, the two together for future generations? HF: 1:25:02 Communication, and communication with the right people making the right decisions. It is all about communication and getting rid of politics and getting rid of egos. It is all about solid communication between individuals and people, especially about things that matter most, like people's lives. SM: 1:25:30 Right. And my last question is a question I have been asking now for the last 15 interviewees. Your tape will be listened to 50 years from now, long after you are gone, I am gone. And most of the boomer generation will be around either, so no one will be alive when Kent State happened. And that is the purpose of our centers to make sure that there is research and scholarship on these events. So, they are never forgotten. So what words of advice would you give to young students, faculty, national scholars who are studying this story, 50 years from now, words of advice? HF: 1:26:24 Words of advice to those of you who are listening to this tape, years from now, is really listen, and listen to the other tapes as well. And try to understand what mistakes were made, and how important it is to be able to communicate and be a part of the process and not hide from it. And Kent State should not have happened. But, protest in this country should be allowed, not violent protest, but protest, like they were at Ken State, it was just a protest. It is part of our culture, it is part of who we are. And it will never stop. But, respect communication of what is going on and respect people's lives. SM: 1:27:35 Very well said and I just want to say that I always ask a question, usually when I say what are the lessons learned and the lessons that cannot be lost from the (19)60s or from any of the Vietnam War, or even Kent State? You already answered that question. With one word, communication. HF: 1:27:57 Yep. SM: 1:27:58 You hit it right on the button. Howard, I want to thank you for this interview. HF: 1:28:05 You might, you might consider putting a link to the oral history I gave to Kent State too. SM: 1:28:10 I will do that. I got to deal with Binghamton University, but I will deal with that and I am going to pause the tape now. Thank you very much for the interview. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Howard Ruffner https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/30c618a53d0a06f84348e0577494274a.MP3 eb5ff021c35eb0ee83efbb42cb2b4002 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Biographical Text Irina Kirichuk was born in Kurganinsk, Russia and moved to Ukraine when she was 3. She is of Russian, Ukrainian, and Armenian ancestry.&nbsp; She is hearing impaired. She came to the United States in 1993, works as a hairstylist, and lives with her family in Binghamton. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jonathan Gurewich and Andrea Esposito Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Irina Kirichuk Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:45 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-11 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Kirichuk, Irina. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Armenian; Russian; Ethnic identity; Ethnic--food; Church; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=IrinaKirichuk.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Russians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Binghamton (N.Y.); Deaf ; Hairstylists Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Irina Kirichuk Interviewed by: Andrea Esposito and Jonathan Gurewich Interpreter: Dee Davis Transcriber: Andrea Esposito and Jonathan Gurewich Date of interview: 11 April 2016 at 3:30:00 PM Interview Setting: Bartle Library, room LSG 552 at Binghamton University, Vestal, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Andrea Esposito: Okay, it's recording--Um, so if you wouldn't mind just stating your name and where you were born if you don't mind. Irina Kirichuk: Okay, sure, my name is Irina my last name is Kirichuk I was born in Russia the name of the town is Kurganinsk. It is a small town, and then when I was three years old we moved to Ukraine and I grew up there in a big city called Kiev, and four hours up from there was a small town called Berdychiv. It's a small town. AE: So you grew up in Berdychiv or Kiev? IK: Uh, actually I grew up in Berdychiv. It's like here, it's kind of like New York State. You know how you have upstate where the small towns are. AE: Mmm that kind of what it was like. It's almost the same idea. Jonathan Gurewich: And uh, as a kid did you spend a lot of time with your parents? Did you um-- IK: I spent a lot of time with my parents and my grandmother. And I have two neighbors who are Russian, and another one on my father's side of the family. My mother's side of the family there were some and my father’s side of the family had Russians and then also my father had Ukrainians who had escaped and gone to Russia. And so that is how I was born there in Russia, and then we moved to the Ukraine. AE: Um, so could you tell us about um why they like escaped? Um, to go to Russia? IK: My mother-- I don't remember exactly. My mother had told me the story when I asked and it was a little confusing, but my mother had a different last name, and I said it wasn't, it didn't seem apart of Russian, and my mother explained to me that the family was from Armenia and then the family all moved because of the war. And it just got very messed up so they escaped and moved to Russia, and then that's how she met my father. My father had been in the army. She met him and then she was pregnant with me. And I was born there in Russia and when I was three then we moved to Ukraine because my father had a lot of family there on his side. They begged him to move there. My mom also had a big family in Russia, so where should we go? They decided to move to Ukraine, but every year they would visit the family members who were in Russia. So we'd go back and forth, but I love the Ukraine side of the family more. I don't know why. Why they picked Kiev, but I did. AE: Um, so at your visits to Russia what type of experiences did you have there versus in Ukraine? IK: Oh-- hmm. Well, the two places were different. It was a beautiful city in Russia, and they spoke differently, but a little bit differently. There was a different, there were different words that they used. It was the same types of sounds, but their food was a little bit different also and I just felt as though. Ahh, people were cool (Everyone laughs). My family was cool; we both got along together in both countries really. So in both countries, so in Russia the world seemed different than Ukraine, and I picked Ukraine that I liked better. I don't know why Russia was nice, but it was more hmm, not at friendly, hmm didn't seem as friendly; their habits were more-- how should I say it-- For me, they seemed very strong but Ukraine seemed more friendly. You know like every time you saw someone they said good morning that was different than it was in Russia. So, stuff like that-- Russia wasn't bad, you know it was cool. It was a beautiful city. Everything was there but from my perspective; they were two different places, and I grew up until I was fourteen years old there, in Kiev. Or near Kiev and then I, we moved here, so, and every year I would fly there, to Russia and Ukraine, and just recently I went to Ukraine, but I couldn't fly to Russia because of the war and the problems that are between Ukraine and Russia now. So, I couldn't go visit my family even though they begged me and I told them I can't. So, my family in Ukraine had told me you really can't go there, and I decided myself that I would not go to Russia, so I was disappointed in that. It's not like I support one side over the other; I said I don't care about Putin leave him out of this I love the people and my family. That's all, so it was just different between the two places. AE: Um, so you said you couldn't go back to Russia, how long was that for, like um time period wise? IK: Now, this was just very recently, last December 2015 I flew to Ukraine to visit my family, but I couldn't go to see my family in Donetsk. I couldn't visit them because of the war, they were like right in the middle of it in Russia and I have a big family that I could have visited, but-- I, I, I can visit them because I have the birthright to get there, so there is no big deal for me to actually go there, but what if something were to happen while I was there and we discussed it with my family they were all concerned. They were all very worried. And my father said to me no, and so I respected what my father said to me so I didn't go-- And my Russian family members were upset and I told them, “Well once you get to some peace there then I promise that I will come visit”. So, hmmm. JG: So do you remember uh any activities that you would do uh that were maybe different, traditions that were different between your Russian side of the family and Ukrainian side of the family? IK: Oh yeah, they were very different traditions. Um, hmm, like for Easter the tradition was different we would always go to church and it would be overnight, and then they would make the holy water, and bless us, everyone there and have eggs and cakes and pierogis, and that was a tradition in Ukraine and also we had apples for celebration that was the tradition there. And Christmas time was you know January 7th, was the tradition of Christmas in Ukraine. In Russia it was December 25th for Christmas, but now before the tradition had been the same but it changed around. And, let's see the differences here Russia, now understand that Russia we never followed the tradition there because my grandmother's traditions were from Armenia and my mother, my grandmother and mother came from Armenia so there was that and I was a little bit confused because it is Armenian is it Russian is it Ukraine? I couldn't figure out which one it was. On my father's side of the family they said you had to pick one and I said, but I love them all. I love all the traditions. It doesn't matter to me I love them all (Everyone laughs). I love all the traditions it doesn't matter to me I love them all, so I was just fascinated with everyone's tradition. So like the Armenian tradition was you must when we move to Russia you had to have nice clothes you had to have to show everything polite have food traditions that were handed down that had to be proper and all the family had to get together and stuff like that so. JG: So, when did you uh decide to come to America? IK: Well, I never thought about that it, was my mother who did she had made all the plans and my mother flew to Russia and filled out some forms there, and then my mother said to me we're going to, well we're planning to go the US and I was very excited I thought for a visit oh yay! We're going to the US I was so excited. Oh, I loved traveling and then my mom planned this, and something happened and we couldn't make it, and then my mom met. Bush's Father who was the president before. Dee: Oh, you mean the president before Bush? -- Yeah, yeah he was, he was George too. IK: My mother met George Bush and begged him to let us in and I remember I was very small and I met him, I didn't know who he was I didn't know he was famous and my mother said this man is from the United States and I said, “well, oh it's nice to meet you” (everyone laughs). I couldn't hear anything so I just shook his hand and my mother explained and begged him and said please let us come to the US, and he signed the papers; we needed to do that in 1993. So that's when we moved here, and then a few years-- I thought we would be here for a few years and then go back and my mother said no we're going to live here and I said what? I was so upset at that time I was very upset, but and plus I asked my mother why is it that we moved I don't understand why we moved; don't you like Russia, and she said no what she wanted me to see me have a good life for myself here because of being deaf there; were more opportunities here in the US. There are interpreters. In Russia and Ukraine, it is very different it is very different, it is very difficult there for deaf people it's more oppression by hearing people of deaf people there which means they tell you, you can't do this you can't do that and you don't have any freedom like you do here. Here, we have so many more opportunities to do whatever; it is you want and in Russia they tell you, you can't. Like I wanted to be a doctor and they said you can't be a doctor; you're deaf. Here I could've if I wanted to and so my experience. Here, there is a very good life here I could have a good job here, get good money here and earn a good living, but it's a little boring for me right here it's like well-- Let me explain a little bit um, good job, and family, and it's always like very family oriented. With uh in Russia you have good friends and family and you enjoy yourself so much, and once you're done with work you meet up with family and friends and do things and money is not so great. Would have been better there if we had the money with the family. For my perspective, I like Europe because it is more active, there are more things to do. You can keep busy, you can enjoy yourself. Here it's a little bit different. I think I've lived here for twenty- let me see here--yea, twenty-four years I've lived here. When I recently flew to Ukraine I was so excited to go there I know times have changed but I was still just thrilled to being, doing things and being there that time just flew for me. I was there just a week and I said there's no way! You know, I wanted to be there three weeks. I wanted more, it just seemed like not enough time, and here I feel like ehhhh, and (everyone slightly laughs). You know I try to be positive about things and keep busy and have my kids, do things with my kids. So it's a different feeling. AE: Um, you said that your first few years here you didn't want to be here like is there any particular reason why you didn't like America at first? Or-- IK: Well the first time when I moved here I didn't know how to speak English and I didn't know any American sign language so I couldn't communicate, and with my friends I felt like what do I do and my father told me just be patient give it a couple of years, two or three years and then we'll move back to Ukraine and my father said I promise and I said fine. So I was patient, I went to school it was a mainstream school it was not a deaf residential school it was a mainstream school so I went to the school and it was hard to try to lip read and try to learn English and every day I cried and I'd ask my teacher I don't understand can you repeat. And just went along for three years and after that my dad said are you ready to go back to Russia and I said yes dad come on let's go I was so excited I was jumping for joy, but for some reason something happened with my family to try to fly there and my sister was here as well and my mom stayed so it was just my father and I. So my mom wanted to stay in the US with my sister and I didn't want to I wanted to go back, and then I realized and my father said to me, we'll go visit if you decide that you want to stay, you want to move back we'll do that so we visited and realized wow I could see that--I decided I didn't want to stay I had to come back to the US because I, I, I don't know why it just hit me all of a sudden cause deaf people had warned me from Ukraine that you should stay in the US. Because they could see that I was happy. And they were grumpy all the time, and it's not that they were not happy before they were very frustrated with things they were very stressed; they didn't have enough money to pay the bills there was so much going on. There were problems with doctors and I realized that oh my goodness I asked my family and they'd say are you okay? And they said please you should go back. Visiting is fine, but living here is not good for you and I realized after came back I realized that I just have to stay positive and stay here. That was the same with my husband. I married my husband, he's from Ukraine, and he moved here and it was the same sort of thing he was very upset, he was not happy being here he didn't want to stay here he wanted to go back, and he begged me, and begged me and I promised him just be patient we'll see what will happen after one or two years. And I said now this is for me, it's for me, if you love me you should be patient to stay here for a while my husband said okay and he stayed and I felt bad, but I decided if you want to move back to Russia we will or the Ukraine. My husband decided no thanks, I can't, it would be better to stay here so we've been happy here ever since. It's just given me very much opportunity better life here than I could have there. Better job and for me being deaf in the community it was a good opportunity, I had interpreters I had everything I needed here and hmm-- it's just more free, like whatever I want I can do. There they were constantly telling me I can't do things. I tried to learn and they said no, you can't you can't do that you. They would limit me and now it is more free, but it is not as free as it is here, it's not. JG: So when your parents first came to the United States did they decide to come to Binghamton or did you move to Binghamton later? IK: No, Um, it's funny, the government had given us tickets for the family to move and because it was through the government's assistance they were giving this away to people who they would say here is where you have to go, and my mother did not know what it was and I was hoping to stay in New York City, that's what I was hoping because I had flew in there and I was just fascinated with that place I loved it so then we stayed at the airport to wait, and they had to check our names and make sure everything was in order, and there was a huge line of people and they'd said where are you going to be going and they told us we were going to Binghamton. So we got on the airplane, little teeny airplane and came here it was so small I had never seen anything so small, but um so we moved here. And we had an apartment, and they, we had everything, it was new because the government helped subsidize it for us and they had apartment, food, and clothes, everything was there the bed, it was furnished! So we were, I was really lucky. And my friend who just recently moved did not get an apartment had to do all of this for themselves, they had to look for themselves, they had to buy the food for themselves, like when I moved here in 1993 they provided everything to me, but now my friend who just recently moved did not get that. And immigration has become much harder it was easier uh when I came, but um and the government told me where to come and I came here and I've never gone anyplace else, I've always been in Binghamton the whole time. My life until I got married, my children were born here in Binghamton, so we're all here. Because I realized I wanted to go to New York City, and I'm realizing now that it's more quiet here it's more comfortable here, I can afford things better here than in New York City. New York is very expensive because I've asked my friends what do you think do you like life there and they said yea but we have to work so much to afford everything so I'll go traveling and have my enjoyment that way. AE: Um when you uh moved here what did your uh parents do for a living, was it hard for them to find a job or did the government help? IK: No, uh actually my parents moved here and started going to school. Yea my parents went to school they went to BOCES and studied English first of all to learn English, and then the government helped with everything, and my parents and my family for money they started, they gave us food stamps. Uh, we had Medicare we had all the assistance until my father was ready then. My father wanted a job, but he didn't know how to communicate in English yet, so my father got pretty grumpy about that. I think he studied for two years and then he started working from BOCES; he got work as a mechanic he would fix lights he was very happy with that. He went along with that, but he felt it wasn't enough, he wasn't satisfied. And I was in my school, just being in high school main-stream here and then a few years later they brought an interpreter for me, my father was working very hard and then went back to school because he wanted to study to be a truck driver, a long-haul trucker, so he was successful at that and now it's been about fifteen years, oh maybe seventeen years now he's been that kind of work. He's very successful, he's very happy. My mother never did have a job she stayed home and took care of her children, me and my sister, and my father was the only one who ever worked. And that was all-- And also we didn't have any family here me my sister my father and my mother just the four of us that was it when we moved here we didn't have any other family here, we didn't have any friends we started to build our group of friends, but in the start, at the beginning it was it was very we were very lonely, we were very grouchy, we didn't understand things. But then slowly things built up, and now I have many new friends, and my circle has just grown. And no other of my family has moved here, it's just been the four of us, and my father wants to try to bring my grandmother here and she doesn't want to. She wants to stay there she said my blood is in Ukraine period. This is where I stand. AE: Um, when you were building up your circle of friends did you find them to be more Ukrainian immigrant or people from just around Binghamton in general? IK: Well, actually I had friends from school from all over the world, Vietnam, Africa I met a lot of people. My first experience when I moved here, I had never seen colored people, people of color ever. Never ever, people from Vietnam, people who were black, people from the world I had never seen. I thought, I said to my father where are these people from their skin is black my father said because really in Ukraine and in Russia it was only white people we're all very the same, very homogeneous. And then I moved here and my jaw would drop you know, it's cold here you have to wear long sleeves and you know I had never seen this sort of thing like fruit in the winter we never had that, they have fruit here in the winter like I said how do you get fruit in the winter, how do you get strawberries in the winter, it's winter, how do you do that!? And my father said, well he was also shocked by this. Oh this stuff is good even though it was winter and there were all these things that were new to us, the clothes that we were weird, we had never seen things like this, my eyes were always popping out my head, you know, he'd say it's not nice to stare at people with your mouth open so close your mouth. Yea, but now I know how it is. And I have friends from Ukraine, there are a lot of people from Ukraine here, a whole lot of people and uh Russia too. So I've gone through becoming friends with them chatting with two of the Russian church's they have, they have a Ukrainian church as well they have lots of different religions from Russia and they don't match me too much. And mine was its, O-R-C-H-E-N, Orchen was the name of the church, and that's the one that I had gone to and they have two languages, they would speak Russian, and they would speak English, it was better for me to help me learn. AE: So, you went to church when you were a kid and when you got older you stopped going or was it something else? IK: Hmm, Anytime, in Europe I would go to church any time whenever I wanted to, I could go or not go. Then when I moved here I went regularly it was every Sunday I went, and I was grouchy about that (everyone laughs). But I had to attend church until I said to my mom why is it I have to go to church, I don't believe in what they teach, and my mother said that's not nice to say, and I said I'm just being honest with you. I believe in Jesus Christ but the church is not helping me at all they tried to explain all these different rules and I feel like what are they. Because my grandmother, my grandmother had told me always you have to believe in Jesus Christ and one God, it's not the church, it's Jesus Christ and she would explain when they tell you these other things, blah blah blah -- All these different religions, different stories and my mother said it's called like a tree. It's like a tree, there's a catholic church, there's a Baptist church, there's all this and I'm not against them it's just my mother and my grandmother told me what's important is in your heart and talking to God and that's it. That's what I follow, so I was patient to go to church until I asked my parents and said to them. Because I can't hear or understand what they say anyway so I would stand around for nothing, it was very boring for me until they brought in an interpreter and then I was more inspired there because I could understand what they were talking about and the topics they were talking about it didn't matter if they were speaking Russian or whatever. I couldn't hear what they were saying, but I tried my best to lip read but it was very hard for me because the priest would you know moving around, couldn't read his lips as he was changing his position and it was until it was I was 1993, I graduated I stopped going to church after graduation. That's when I had stopped, then I went once and while for Easter services or Christmas or some sort of special event or if we needed to pray for my family or if there were problems with the war. We would go to church to pray for that, and I still have the faith. I'm never rude to people, I don't mean to insult anybody about church, just want to let you know. AE: No. JG: No, not at all, so overall how would how, how was your childhood influenced by your Ukrainian and Russian and Armenian heritage, and how did that uh come with you to America? IK: Hmm, good question. I grew up, I had a lot of experiences growing up and also I was confused and language was confusing, but I'm really very thankful to my mother and my grandmother for teaching me three languages-- I just grew up the same in all three places in Ukraine, Russia you know. I don't remember all of it. You know I was always playing outside a lot and did that sort of thing and learning how to communicate, but my family, my whole family knew that I was deaf, and so they would teach me a lot, every day they would teach me the three different languages and now I feel like I can speak all these languages, and my two kids as well are learning I'm teaching them as well too. Like how to speak those languages. DD: You mean-- let the interpreter make this clear, do you mean Ukraine--Ukraine and Russian? IK: Yes. JG: And have you ever visited, uh, Armenia, or have you ever engaged in your Armenian side of the family? IK: No I never have. I never visited there, but, it, I've never gone to visit. I've always visited Russia and Ukraine. It's been-- hmm-- I moved here and we would go back every year, and then I didn't visit for ten years and finally I just recently went in December. I flew there and I was very thrilled because I was so far behind seeing people and Ukraine has changed a lot because I haven't seen it in ten years! There were many changes there-- Yeah it's different now. It wasn't like it was when I was there, it's not like my Ukraine, I liked how it was before. Now with the changes-- Hmm-- It just feels like-- It's confusing, it's startling, because it's changed. Now they have mixtures of uhh people of color, people intermarry with people of color, so that's a big change. It's more expensive to live there now-- and people seem all grouchy all the time, it's like-- and I realize that, oh, I do not want to go back, I'll go to visit, and that's all, and that's just my opinion. Yeah, I don't want to go back. But, I do have a house there and I miss my family there, but just to visit, and see everybody and do that, and then come back here. When I came back home I missed it here so much it's like the opposite of how it used to be, I don't know. AE: Umm did you take your family with you, when you visited Ukraine recently, or? IK: No, I went by myself. I went by myself. Next year we're definitely going with the family. My kids have never been to Ukraine, my daughter's never been to Ukraine because it was ten years ago. My son was two years old, eh, or, no he was nine months old when we went, or, we went when he was nine months and eighteen months and he doesn't remember anything of that, so we've decided that next year, we are, I am going to go with my husband and my two kids and we've decided we are going to fly there to get this experience for them, to get this exposure for them. And also-- I'm hoping that Ukraine and Russia will have ended the war by then and they'll be at peace, so that we can go to Ukraine and then go visit Russia to Donetsk back home. I hope you know I'm hoping, I've I've promised my family we're going to go there. And, and also to go to my family in Armenia, my mother has a huge family there in Armenia, and-- and, also, some have gone-- to, to Israel and I've never visited there either-- so they keep saying, "when are you coming? When are you coming" I say I will-- but-- yeah-- my only tie is really to Ukraine, I feel pulled there, that's my favorite place. I don't know. Hmm. AE: You can go. JG: Have you been to other parts of Ukraine? Uhh, in other regions, maybe in the east, or the west? IK: Uhhh-- I have gone a lot to the east, in Ukraine, umm, hmm, the name of the town is-- Zhytomyr. It's a very small town, and I would go to Kiev, which is the big city, and also-- Lviv is a big city there as well, that is very strongly, Ukrainian, people's traditional dress, and it's more like the countryside-- it's more like the countryside-- so I've gone travelling there, and on my father's side there are a lot of people who live there-- in Donetsk, and also part of Ukraine also, so I've travelled to visit my family there, and also-- it-- let me see what's it called-- oh, Crimea-- also in the Crimea. Do you know about Crimea? JG: Yes. IK: Yes, that's, I went there, and that is part of Ukraine but it's already been stolen by the Russians. But yeah, and I would always travel in different cities, in different cities around big cities a lot, I would go to my father would always take me travelling with him, a lot. JG: And, when you would travel all over Ukraine did you notice a very big difference in the culture of these different places? Or was it mostly the same? IK: It was a little different-- like, the buildings would be different, the architecture, but it was the same food, it was the same clothing, but the buildings were different the churches were different they had different shapes in the different places. And also museums were a little bit different in the different places. And you know, cars would be different (laughs) sometimes they'd have the older cars that I'd never seen (laughs) before-- And the houses were beautiful, they were like, they looked like museums themselves. They were just-- I don't know what to say just amazing houses, and some I've I've never seen I said, "dad is that a museum?" he said, "No people live there." I said, "What, really? The house would look like a museum." He said "no really it's a house, really." But yeah, they're beautiful. And also-- they had an old house like from-- what would you call it-- uhh what's it called-- outside where they cut the plants, a house, where they it was like old fashioned, it was very fascinating that people still lived there, and I asked my father about this "Do you mind asking them?" because people don't understand me when I speak sometimes so I asked my father to ask,. He said "hey, my daughter wants to know how you live, how you protect yourself from the, oh, from the water coming through the roof that was made from plants?" And they would cut down trees and use this for their roofs and it was amazing to me, it was very old but still was working so it was very cool-- yeah. AE: Umm, did you travel other places besides Ukraine and Russia? IK: (long pause) Uhh-- yes I have gone to Poland, ummm where else-- Germany-- hmm where else-- Germany-- and well here I've gone to like the Bahamas the Dominican Republic, things like that, but in Europe, growing up when I moved here at 14, I moved here, so, what I'd done is more travel around the U.S. and in the U.S. I've gone to Puerto Rico, I've gone to the Dominican Republic; I've gone to the Bahamas, Mexico, things like that, on vacation. Always like during the summer. But, I still travel, I love traveling, I love learning about different places, I love all the differences of how they are and the different countries. Now last year were supposed to we were planning to go to-- Italy, we were planning to go to Italy but it never happened. IK: because everything got messed up, we had a lot of conflicts. So again we're hoping, we're hoping that we'll go sometime maybe during the winter we'll see. But, I, I really want to go to Spain. Yes, I, I have promised that I'm-- and so we'll see, we'll see when that will happen. Because my kids have school, and their sports and all that I can't ignore my kids I want to leave once they finish school we can go as a whole family. So-- AE: Umm, so, h- for your kids-- umm-- how have you been exposing them to-- the culture that you may have grown up with, or do you go, like, go more towards the American culture, or a hybrid of both? IK: I use both, we have a mixture of both that we teach them. Sometimes my kids will be like-- they'll find out something they'll see a picture they'll say that's really cool I've never seen a house like that and then I'll explain to them that it's like well that was like from my grandmother and grandfather's time you never met them they had died and they'll say if they had different clothes back then and I'll explain that, and the food, I explain about the food sometimes my husband and I still speak Ukraine at home. We and my kids will listen say what is that so we teach them that too, and always when we go out we speak English, but at home we speak Ukraine my husband and I talk abo- talk all the time in that and my kids don't if we don't want them to know some of the words sometimes-- We'll speak and they don't get it-- So I'll hide what I'm saying with my husband sometimes by them not understanding and also I'll speak to them and they'll understand but I want them to be able to speak back to me in it and they're not so good in that. They just know a little bit, of, of speaking back to me. If it's something difficult they can't do it, but uh I've been thinking of setting up, maybe, because I have umm my mother-in-law and my uncle, they're willing to have my children stay with them for three months during the summer and learn how to speak the language there so I've been thinking about that and uhh we have the food we have the culture sometimes though they'll ask me, "how did you meet dad? How did you meet?" And I said well he's from Ukraine and they love listening to that story they love hearing about other countries and also my father also explains to them as well, and he'll tell them about his experience and his history in Ukraine, and all that, because he had more experience than I did, so he can explain everything and my kids are just fascinated they'll ask him questions forever they're fascinated with this and then they say now how the toys are different than they are here they don't have these kind of dolls, like, different kinds of toys, and they'll ask my dad about that. And cars that are different, and I have dolls from I have twelve dolls and my kids would say wow why do you have them I've never seen these kinds of dolls and I would explain well this is is a tradition from where I grew up and it was cool. So now, I allow them to play with them. They've noticed the cars are different and-- you know, like, valuable silverware and cups and from Ukraine I show them and they say "oh so this is from Ukraine it's very decorative" it's like clothes also that have a lot of stitching on them from Ukraine, a lot of embroidery, and they say now why's that? And I say it's a tradition that they have in Ukraine for that. And sometimes they'll find something in school and say "hey mom look what I have there's a book from Ukraine it's talking about a story from Ukraine and they will read that a little more. And I've explained everything to them they ask me if they want to know I explain to them because they love it and sometimes I'll say to my father "can you explain to them in more detail about what they're asking (Andrea laughs) and they're just, huh, wrapped attention to him, and it's, I'm shocked how many questions they have about it and he always explains everything they ask, he's always done that he always explains and sometimes I try to bring them to church to see how it is-- how they have Ukrainian eggs, things like this Ukrainian art, at the church, things that are different and they'll say this is really cool oh these are all Ukrainian? I say yes they are they say why this is why they have the building this way because? And they have very popular wooden eggs and wooden spoons and things like this that they have in Ukraine. AE: Umm did family from Ukraine ever visit you at Binghamton? IK: No, hmm. We've tried, we tried to get a visa for them but it's not easy to do. So, we've tried, huh, we tried to bring them here we tried to bring family to visit and one problem, this biggest problem is the visa. I don't know why that is, you have to put down you have a job you have to fill out all this stuff and they still denied them a visa so I don't know why I don't know why there are many times; I think maybe about thirty times we've filled out a visa application so it's been every year and it's never been accepted, never been approved. And, so we're always the one's to go there and visit, and I don't mind, I don't mind, I'm not complaining about it, that's how it is. Also, they can't really afford to come here. Like for example, here if you have $100, there it's like 2,500, so, it's-- they work and they earn like $20 a month. So, there's no way they can afford coming here. Hmm. And it's uhh the different economy, we have very different economies-- many Europeans or Russian or Ukrainians want to come here and get jobs here to earn the money, they don't want to live here they want to get the jobs here, and-- (Dee clears throat) the problem is having no one can speak English. So-- and also, I'd ask my family how can you eat how can you afford to eat they said Well first we have to buy food we don't have anything left for clothes, or for their electronics things like that, but thank God that I'm here and this is good here and I always support them I will give my family things they need I will give them what I can what they need. AE: Umm what do you and your husband do for like employment here? IK: My husband-- well was laid off two years ago. He used to work for Pepsi he was the manager at Pepsi. And he was laid off. So I now am a Hairstylist and Cosmetologist, and I love it I love my work. JG: Have you always wanted to be a hairstylist? IK: Uhh umm when I was little, I'd would always go to the salon and watch and learn how they did things with nails and dream that when I grew up I could do this, but what I really wanted to do was become a doctor. That was my dream to become a doctor. And then, I was told no; you can't you can't you can't you can't. It's a long story but I decided to change and try for my second path, which was hair styling and I love it was really my dream, has always been to be a doctor growing up. I told my parents I want to be a doctor I want to be a doctor; I promise I'm going to be a doctor but then life just messed me up. Hmm. But, I love doing hair, I get to meet a lot of people, all the people who I work with know I'm deaf, they know I can speak somewhat, and, if they speak quickly I don't understand I have to say "can you slow down?" and then I understand them but uhh me and my boss, we get along very smoothly. Everything works out and the customers who come in works very smoothly we've never had a problem (knocks on table) and I have to knock wood after I say that. Of course! But I'm very happy with that. Now before, I had worked as a teaching assistant and this was for kids this was for three years and I had to quit that, and then, I went back to school, to study Cosmetology, and I've become certified and licensed and so now I have my job and I'm very happy with that. And before I-- just stayed at home and watched my children and my husband had worked for Pepsi for many years and once he was laid off he tried to find a job and he was unable to. So we're waiting to see if he finds a different job. AE: So how long have you been working as a hairstylist and Cosmetologist? IK: Ahh let's see it hasn't been long time, it was just recently let me see-- let me see-- hmm-- four months, four or five months four or five months-- hmm-- since licensed, since being licensed. AE: So, umm, you said it was a, uh, cool story about you and your husband met? So, like, you care to share? IK: Hmm, ok! I was here, and my best friend was getting married, and she sent me an invitation said you have to promise to come back to Ukraine for my-- to be the maid of honor for my wedding. And so I flew to Ukraine, and I stayed there for one month and a half. I stayed with my grandmother that time, and my grandmother was ill, also she had a stroke so I was taking care for her. I was going between her and my friend's house, and then my friend had her wedding, and I asked her who that guy is over there? And my best friend said "Oh my, he's a handsome guy!" I said yeah, but who uhh, do I know him?" "No you've never met him." "I said fine, but, that, was my husband." And my best friend said that they said to her, who is that girl over there? She said, she's beautiful. I said Well yeah, (all laugh) so that's kind of how it went. And I had a boyfriend already at that time, so, it just happened my best friend's wedding and I met him. We looked at each other it was very nice; we chatted and he spoke very fast and I said now uhh speak a little more slowly so that I can understand you. So that's where I met him at the wedding and then we just fell in love right away, it was very quick, and then-- he didn't know that I was from the U.S., because I didn't tell him, and he knew that I visited my grandmother all the time, he knew where I lived there with my grandmother every day he would come to visit and help and do that. And then, at the very end, we'd been dating maybe I'd say, oh, two months, no no no, two weeks, two or three weeks; we were dating, and I said to him, "you know I do have a boyfriend." He said I don't care; I do not care where's your boyfriend he's not here right? I said "Right! I just want to tell you the truth you don't care? Ok fine." So we dated, and-- he showed me around new buildings and things that I'd never been. So, I got to learn about these new places; I'd never visited before and finally I said goodbye I won't see you and he said what are you talking about you're teasing right? And I said no, I'm not! I won't see you again! This is it. And he thought I was joking. And I said no, I'm not joking I'm telling you the truth. And he said yeah right sure; I'll see you tomorrow and I said no, I'm going to be, going I'm flying away tomorrow and he said no no, I don't believe you, you're teasing so, he gave me a kiss I flew away. And, he stopped by my grandmother's house and says "where's Irina Where's Irina where is she?" she says well she doesn't live here she was just visiting she lives in the U.S. and my husband was shocked, but I had I had already told him he didn't believe me (Dee laughs) he thought I was teasing. So, ok fine. So, he decided to ask my best friend whose wedding I went to he said do you have Irina's address. Do you know how I can contact her? She said Well fine and she gave him my address, so he kept in contact with me he would write to me back and forth and while I was here-- the boyfriend I had here-- I mean-- it-- I really had forgotten about the man who's become my husband, I'd really kind of forgotten about him. I got his letter and I thought hmm-- who's that? Huh-- that name I don't quite remember. So, I, so I wrote to him I said "I'm sorry I don't know who you are" and he got very mad. So, then he sent me a picture and then I said, "huh it looks so unfamiliar, oh shit! Yeah I know who that is, yeah" So we kept in touch, we kept in touch, and, he told me he wanted to date me he wanted to keep in touch and it happened that my grandmother became sick again; we were very worried and my father was supposed to fly there but he couldn't make it. He had to work, he wasn't allowed to take time off, so he asked me if I wouldn't mind going. So, I said sure and I went and I stayed for two months with my grandmother and took care of her after her stroke she was in the hospital and I had to pay for her bills and do all the stuff involved with that I took care of her and then the man who became my husband, he uh, he came to visit again, kept in touch, and he asked me to get engaged with him after three months of dating. I turned him down, second time he asked me I turned him down. And my grandmother said to me "I like him!" and I said "I know, I know" and my grandmother said "I want to see you married, I'm still alive I want to see you married before I die" I said "I know grandma I know I know but don't rush me I need to have the right guy, I need to find the right man who I love!" and she said "he seems like a nice man" and my grandmother said to me "remember, don't think about money" I said "no I'm not looking for money I'm looking for love. My grandmother said to me, when she, you met him, I met my husband and we were married in two weeks. I said Grandma that was a long time ago; it's different now she said you have to follow your stomach do you have butterflies there? You have to follow your heart do you feel love there, then do it! And I thought hmmm, but, I decided go ahead and get engaged. And so I got engaged with my husband and married him very quickly. And then, he stayed in Ukraine, it's funny, umm it was like, we were married, we didn't, I didn't have the dress or anything it was just the two of us went signed the papers and that was it. And, there were fifty people who were there, the same age as me, had a party, we didn't have any family at all. And my parents had no idea that I was married, my father knew I was engaged but he didn't know we'd actually gone in and signed the papers and made it legal, so, when I flew back, he said well why didn't you-- why did you go back to the U.S., he wanted me to stay in Ukraine, I said hang on a second I have to go there I have to talk to my father, so I flew back and I told my boyfriend uhh-- we're broken up that's it he was mad and I said well ohh uhh ohh well I love this other man. So, that's how I told my father that I'm married my father said "you're supposed to wait, you're supposed to have the dress, you're supposed to have everything." I said, "ehhh, doesn't matter" he said OK fine. Next year, we'll have the family, we'll have the wedding; we'll have a huge affair when you get married. And I told my husband well, you're going to have to come here to the U.S. and my husband said no he wanted me to stay in Ukraine! And I said but, but I'm going to college I'm going to be stuck he said I don't care you can start here in Ukraine and so I was very angry at that-- and then I told him Well fine, we should get divorced he said "what! We just got married!" You want to get divorced? I said because, I love you but I don't want to stay here. So, I said if you love me, then you'll come with me. He said ok, so he came with me here, and he was grumpy for a while, but as it went on like after a couple of years, I said I will always be there with you we were always helping each other I would help him translate things he would go to school and he'd say he wanted a job I said you have to be patient you have to focus on school first he didn't want to do that and finally he's the smart guy but after two or three months he would pick up English just like that and he got a job and he just took off and-- like my father (snaps fingers) it was like my father just right away didn't care about the schooling. Who cares, just get the job and he picked up English very well and now he does very well he doesn't write so well in English but he speaks very well; he knows how to speak. So, it's very amazing. So we've been married sixteen years now hmm. Yeah. And-- also I, I was thinking about my grandmother had said see? You're still married, and she was there when we were married and then it was a few years after that my grandmother said I want to see grandchildren! I said we're trying! We're trying! And then I was pregnant and my grandmother died, so, I always promised my grandmother-- grandchildren but I was very very close with my grandmother and grandfather there, very close to them, but, my mom's side of the family my grandmother was, I would see her, she was very sickly I never met my grandfather on my mother's side. My father's side I saw more often my grandmother and my grandfather and all the family there. Anything else? JG: I think we're uhh I think we're uhh-- good? AE: Uhh yeah, I think we're good. Thank you so much. JG: Thank you so much. IK: Mhmm you're welcome. JG: It was very nice to hear your story. AE: It was very nice thank you. IK: Well thank you! (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Irina Kirichuk Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kirichuk, Irina ; Gurewich, Jonathan ; Esposito, Andrea Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Irina Kirichuk was born in Kurganinsk, Russia and moved to Ukraine when she was three. She is of Russian, Ukrainian, and Armenian ancestry. She is hearing impaired. She came to the United States in 1993, works as a hairstylist, and lives with her family in Binghamton. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-11 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Irina Kirichuk.MP3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-21 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 59:45 Subject The topic of the resource Kirichuk, Irina. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Armenian; Russian; Ethnic identity; Ethnic--food; Church; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9063d5632ca0f5cc2ea6282025b4d6df.m4a 010afa648dbfa2043e31c1e40669d1cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ege Konuk and Tyler Sherven Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ivan Synevsky Biographical Text Father Ivan Synevsky was born in Western Ukraine region in 1982. He lived in Ukraine until 2001, when he moved to Canada. He lived in Canada for six years, then got married in the United States in 2007. He attended Holy Cross Greek Theological School in Boston from 2008 to 2010, then was ordained in 2010 in Rhode Island. He had a parish in New Jersey for two years and in 2012, he was transferred to the local parish. He resides in Johnson City with his wife and three children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:24 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-06 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Synevsky, Ivan. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian—Canadian; Ukraine—History; Soviet Union--History; Eastern Orthodox Church; Priest; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Russia-- History; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=IvanSynevsky.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Priests; Soviet Union; Canada; Ukrainian Orthodox Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Father Ivan Synevsky, Priest Interviewed by: Ege Konuk and Tyler Sherven Transcriber: Ege Konuk and Tyler Sherven Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 10:00 am Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Tyler Sherven: Hello, today we are interviewing Father Ivan on April 6, 2016, 10am at Binghamton's St John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church. How are you doing Father? Father Ivan Synevsky: I'm doing good, thank you. TS: We're Binghamton students Tyler and this Ege, it’s a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak with you in your lovely place of worship. For your discretion, you are not obligated to answer any of these questions. If there are any topics you find uncomfortable, please inform us to move on. Ege, would you like to begin with your question Ege Konuk: Hello again, Father Ivan. Like my friend said before, it is a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak with you. First of all, Father Ivan, could you introduce yourself to our audience. Could you perhaps offer us some information, such as where were you born, when were you born, career, and size of family? IS: Sure, I was born in Ukraine, 1982. Western Ukraine Region. I lived in the Ukraine until 2001, when I moved to Canada. I lived in Canada for 6 years, then I got married in the United States, 2007. At that time, I was also considering going to seminary school. Even though there was one already in Canada that I already applied to, I decided to go to one in the United States. So I went to Holy Cross Greek Theological School in Boston from 2008 to 2010. Then I was ordained in 2010 in Rhode Island. I had a parish in New Jersey for 2 years and in 2012 I was transferred to this parish. I, as I said, I am married and have 3 kids now. I also work for the main office of our church in the United States as editor of the magazine. It is called Ukrainian Orthodox Word and I also do other publications, some of the website publishing as well. I published the main calendar of the church; I also am taking care of this parish. TS: You said you lived in Ukraine until 2001. Could you possibly detail the community you grew up in, while you were in Ukraine? IS: Sure, when I was born, at that time, it was still the Soviet Union. In 1989, the Soviet Union started to break up. In 1990, Ukraine proclaimed its independence. The schools have started to change as well. During the Soviet Union, we learned Russian language, Russian literature. After Ukraine became independent, we started to use more Ukrainian language, less Russian. I believe after 2 years, we stopped even learning Russian at all. We started to use all the Ukrainian books, since everything was in Russian. In the area I grew up, my father was a priest, he had a parish in the village, and so we grew up in the village. After my parents passed away when I was 9 years old, we moved to the city where my aunt took us. I had 5 more siblings, there was 6 of us, so we all moved to her apartment. But slowly, we went to school and kind of broke up that number, because when she took us she had her own 4 children, 6 of us. My sister soon after went to look after grandmother and my sister went to the other grandmother, then we kind of shifted in different ways, making work easier on my aunt. But we also come from a large family, where my mother's side, there were 12 kids, 3 died when they were young, so there were 9 left. They were all helping us when we were without parents, which was a great help. Even in that case, when we moved to Canada, we moved as adopted children to Canada-- our relatives took us to Canada, 4 of us, 4 boys and 2 sisters were still in Ukraine, but four boys went to Canada. EK: Well, I wonder how you and your family decided to immigrate to America. I mean that, what motivated this decision? IS: Well, I was in Canada, and my second parents had took us to Canada. He was also a priest, so he moved to the United States, as a priest. And I was visiting them during the Ukrainian festival and I met a girl during the Ukrainian Festival, and I started to air travel from Canada to Oregon State. But where my girl was at the time was Seattle, Washington, because I was traveling to both places. Then not too long, I met my future wife in October and we married in July. Then, like I said, I already applied to theological school in Canada, but since I married in the United States, we decided to stay in the United States, so we applied to Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Theological School, and we moved there. We were there for 2 and a half years, because I expedited using summers. I guess my reason to move to the United States was, simply, more opportunities here and also there were some immigration papers that were involved at that time, so we decided to move to Canada and not stay in the United States. TS: Has your perspective on America evolved since arriving? Did you happen to have a certain idea of what America was, while you were in Canada or Ukraine? IS: Well I certainly had a different imagination when I was in Ukraine, because I guess all we learned was from movies, and you cannot really learn America by movies. When I moved to Canada, Canada is much like America, it was a big difference when I moved from Ukraine to Canada. Many things were new. But when I moved from Canada to the United States, I guess the only difference that I noticed was that America is much larger, and there are many areas that are occupied more. Whereas in Canada, there are some empty spaces in between the bigger cities, where you can travel 6-7 hours and see nothing on the side. Whereas here, 1 or 2 hours there is something. Even though there is a highway, you can certainly see outlets that you can go and stop somewhere. I haven't been in South America, I don't know what it's like there, but certainly in the North part of the United States, I have some experience. EK: At this point, I want to ask you another question. Does your immediate family hold different views on this country? TS: Different views, as in let's say, when your family was in Ukraine, did they hold different views on perhaps what they saw through movies and other sorts of media and then did that shift? IS: Oh, my family in Ukraine? TS: Your family in Ukraine and Canada, perhaps. IS: I would say the family in Ukraine may still have different views because of our constant communications, I believe they have a better idea how it is in Ukraine. And my siblings in Canada, they've been in the United States too, so I don't think there is much difference. I think the only difference, is that it is a much larger community here. And also in Canada, French is the second language and here Spanish is almost the second language. I guess that is the only difference you have. But everything else looks very similar or the same in the United States and Canada because they share products along the border. TS: I mean they have such a close economic relationship and everything. It's really had to shift between there-- Well, you must have a really strong religious identity, being an Orthodox priest, of course. What happened to inspire you to take on this path and, more broadly, what inspires people to enter your religious community? IS: Well, as I have said before, I am from the priest family. And I grew up in the church, so all the feast days, all the services, we were in the church. Not only my father, but also my six uncles from my mother's side were priests. One was cantor, the whole family was really in the church, so anytime we had celebrations friends, priests that would come. From my very childhood, my dream was to become a priest. Even though that dream dissipated, later on, when I was a teenager because in Ukraine there were times, after Ukraine became independent, there were times of disturbance in the Orthodox ways, where national churches would start to rise up without canonical. There the Byzantine Catholic Church that started to invade the churches. I witnessed many invasions of the church, where people would come to the church and expel the Orthodox people and change all the locks and stuff. So that was happening in 1990-1996, during that time. TS: Could you perhaps elaborate on the transition of the Orthodox Church between the time in the 80s, with the Soviet Union and the 90s? IS: I believe the church decided to separate from Russia completely. When the country, itself, proclaimed its independence, the church wanted to have independence as well, because they were under the patriarch of Russia. They wanted to have their own patriarch so they could have no relationship with Russia because of that long bond that they had and also some stories that the Russian Patriarch was under control of the KGB, and so they wanted to separate for many reasons. There were many attempts, some were at the very beginning, and they were very healthy if everybody said we want the Ukrainian church, let's separate. Even though there were, at times, those of that kind, but yet there was some hesitation from some bishops. Many of them said no at the very end before the meeting, so that didn't happen all together. They had to break up into smaller groups. So that didn't really work well because we orthodox started to be divided. Some wanted to be canonically correct so they would stay with Moscow. Some wanted to be separated from Moscow completely, so they created their own group and started to serve their own services. Outside, look, you cannot see any difference. All Churches are the same. All icons and everything are the same, as I've said before, you cannot tell the difference what group you're on. There's not really a separation of something or making new religions. There is just a separation of governance, governments that wanted to create their own, so they would be completely separate from Russia. So the decision was to separate from the Soviet Union completely and be its own, self-governed in all regions. TS: So there was major push to establish and strengthen the Ukrainian identity after the fall of the Soviet Union? IS: It's really hard, because look, during the Soviet Union, there were times many people would be forcefully moved from one area to another area. Just simply, even my grandparents, they were moved from their village. Simply they load them, bring whatever they can take, and load them on a truck, move them miles, miles away to the city so they could they work and build the cities. They wanted to move the businesses and stuff because everything was owned by the government, so they wanted everyone to work for the government. All the mineries, all the shoe factories, and every business they owned, they wanted people in. So it was a forceful thing to move people around and also they were not just moving in the small country or region, they were moving country to country. They would move people from Russia to Ukraine and Ukraine to Russia, and every nation they had under their control, they would move them in between inside the Soviet Union, and they wanted to make against the mix of nations inside so they could not separate as easily because you would have your own people, people of different religions, nations, so they would always be opposite to the greater community. So that was one part of their politics at the time. I think it worked and in some ways it still works today because many people still are of different nations, but yet what people look now, is, actually, am I happy to be here? Happens to be that Ukraine is a happy place to live for many nations, whether it is Tatars in Crimea, they're really trying to put their voice in, they're unhappy under Russia, so forth. Even Russians themselves, that were living in Ukraine and working in Ukraine, have showed their voice on the TV and elsewhere that they are happy to be in Ukraine, that they don't want anything to do with Russia, since they are still really totalitarian minded because Ukraine started to move toward more democratic ways, more toward the west, they wanted to have things done differently because in Russia you still have that totalitarian view where you'd force someone to do something for you and they didn't want to have that. TS: Considering all the totalitarianism, especially within the Soviet Union, how did the Soviet Union, perhaps, control the Orthodox Church? I mean, from what I understand, the Soviet Union wanted to promote atheist values and I was curious, as to whether how they would, perhaps, control the church? IS: As far as I can see, they started to create different feast days, which were not Christian. Those would be the 8th of March, as they called it Universal Women’s Day, which in America, very little people know about 8th of March, and there's also other, like new year because the church new year would be 14th of January because the church didn't switch the calendar, even though, under the Soviet Union, we have changed the dates to the new calendar, but yet we are still following the old calendar. So our new year was after nativity. Whereas if you take the new calendar, it's a week before because there are thirteen days difference between the two calendars, Julian and Gregorian calendar. The feasts differentiate and so the first of January, for us, is still during lent when we're not really allowed to do any music or any fat foods and so forth. But they started to celebrate that feast a lot. There were also other feasts, they would march, celebration of victories from war and some other stuff. They would make up different names to do at a certain time, when we would do a certain feast. When we would have Pascha, our romaine feast for Easter, they would do something or make people to go and do work outside. Basically, you had to do it, it was a really forceful command, "go and do flowers by the city hall", and you would have to go, otherwise they would release you from your work and so people did differently. Some were obeying whether, but yet, at the times when they didn't work, they would come to church. Some would say no and just simply go to church and see what happens and people did other things. EK: Well, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask a question about your childhood. I wonder, did you frequently attend Orthodox Church events as a child? If so, could you give examples of these events? IS: Yes, we grew up in Church. Most of the time the priest lives by the church, so we would participate in all the feast days, where there was nativity, Easter, or any other. The main feast is Easter and twelve major feasts, but also every Sunday. I guess Pascha or Easter is the greatest feast for us; we would definitely do many things during that time. The Ukrainian tradition is also that during Easter we would, especially fun for young kids, because during Easter boys and girls would make circles, like chains, they would hold each other, and there was another smaller layer if they can, and walk around the church. That was something for young kids to show their strength and abilities, but it was also nice for other people to look for something. There was mostly boys doing it, but the girls would participate as well, but for the smaller kids or girls there were other activities done at that time. They would sing different songs and play different games during that time; I guess everyone was occupied by doing something. It was a great feast, they would celebrate in such a way that they would really enjoy because Easter is spring time, in spiritual terms as well, so we would really enjoy eating a meal, but also wearing all the bright colors during that time, so it was really amazing. TS: It seems that your church is a really good community builder. Could you, perhaps, go into more depth about the different ways the church strengthens community in all parts of the world? IS: Well, I guess the church itself is actually meaning the communion, and even our main service, liturgy, from the Greek, means work of the people. Even the priest cannot celebrate liturgy by himself, he would have to have more people, at least 2-3 people to celebrate the liturgy with. Even the governments of the church, in all Orthodox Church, is not governed by a bishop or a patriarch, it is governed by all the bishops. Even though we have countries with their own patriarch, but yet, they among themselves are equal. Even though we have a canonical patriarch in Istanbul, but yet he is considered to be first among equal. Anytime we would have certain main things done, they would be done in a Sabor or a council. In the Early church, we had eight canonical councils that had impact on the whole church. They would come, representatives from all churches, whether it was an issue of the holy trinity, issue of the icons, how we venerate them and so forth, and there were other major issues in the church, as they grew up spiritually, they had some difficulties because people started to interpret things differently, they started to create their own groups and so forth of their own teaching. But yet the church, as a whole, put their stand, here's what it is, here's how it is supposed to be after learning and researching the issue. Even today we have that sense, in the United States we have, every 3 years, the Sabor council, where we get all the clergy from the United States and laity and they would all participate in different groups, different questions that we need to decide for the country, for the United States. There is one Greek Orthodox council, which is planned in Crete this year, where all the Orthodox come for the council, so they are going to decide on the issues of whether it is a liturgical practice, whether it is issues of marriage or the calendar, or other things, or governments, so we have some problems that we need to decide. But no one can decide on those questions unless we all come together. TS: So you were saying how the Istanbul patriarch is equal in the eyes of the other bishops, so is equal voices in the council a very significant value of the church? IS: It was from the very beginnings, so even though the church does not claim that, or we do not say that we are democratic or so, we have our own style of governance. But it many ways, it looks like it is democratic because we unite all together to decide certain questions and then it applies to everyone else. Although there are some local, we allow local traditions, but they have to be on a different level because there is a bigger tradition that involves everybody. There are smaller and local traditions that involve just the local communities. EK: You have been, as a priest for a long time. I wonder what training or education you completed to become a priest. IS: Well, I went to Boston school, Greek Holy Cross Theological School, and it was Master of Divinity. Before that I graduated from computer Science College in Ukraine. So basically you would have to have undergrad before you went into the Master of Divinity. Those that did not have, the school has a program in its place. I believe it is called Hellenic college, where you could take any other undergrad area in their school, or elsewhere, and just come to and participate in the higher level there. TS: Are there any experiences outside of your structured education that you consider to be incredibly valuable to your experience as a priest today? IS: Well, definitely, I would say all the experience I have received, whether it's in Ukraine or Canada, or in United States, outside of the church has place in the church as well. I graduated from Computer Science College, so now I able to do things for the church that we didn't have to call other people or pay people for that job. So basically whether it's a website, a publication, computers, I am able to do that so we have many clergy of different backgrounds. Some are doctors, some are known in woodwork, some are known in different ways so we have different and really rich background of clergy that can do different things, which, I guess, helping the community like the previous priest would have different, father Loric, during his time the church rectory was built and the memorial center. He was very well known with his music, he was known for his musical talents, so he would read and write music, he would play music, so he had that talent. The church now uses his music and now a days we still hear all this, even up to today, so it didn't lost value or anything like that. Anything you can do, you can apply in a good way to the church. TS: Studying computer science, you obviously must have a lot of skills in that area. How do you apply that to modern Orthodox Church today, and also, you mentioned that you are part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Word Magazine, so I would imagine that you would have a lot to offer with your computer skills. IS: Well, you may probably know that you have to constantly learn in the computer science because I graduated with computer science in 2001, right just before I went to Canada. Since then many things have changed. What I learned then is different today so I had to completely update myself and learn new languages, learn new programs, and stuff. But at least it gave me a base that I can then jump from there, elsewhere without much hesitation or struggle. I wasn't a publisher, where I didn't know what publishing program before, but there was opportunity to do something with publishing and I, within a short period of time, was able to accommodate the program and learn how to do things. I guess it's easier for a person that has some underground in computers to learn things than to say someone that did not have experience with computers to learn this program. I guess in that way it makes my life easier, it makes the main office life easier. And I started to learn with many things I started to do at the office, were not the things you learn in school. In school you learn basics, but when you go to the workplace, you have to really adjust yourself and learn more things and specifics of certain things you can adjust. And it's also good for publishing books because I'm also on the liturgical commission that I help publish the books and lay out. Since we do it in two languages, English and Ukrainian, so I have to make sure that we have two sides on each page, but there are programs that can do that. I guess we use our talents to simplify and make life easier for many people not just ourselves and use our talents for the glory of god and basically the goal. TS: Further expand your message-- and then you also mentioned, in regards to schooling, you went to Greek Orthodox School for your studies. I was curious, as to if you can elaborate on the differences between Ukrainian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox? IS: The differences? TS: Possibly the similarities? IS: I guess the theology is the same. We are all Orthodox and now we are all in communion. The differences between Greek Church, and Ukrainian, or Russian is that we are in different calendars. They, in 1922, the Greek Church switched to new calendar, whereas the Slavic church did not. So, we still keep the old calendar and so the calendar is the difference. What unites us is the Easter, the Pascha because that is the only day that we have or period of days that we have the same. We would celebrate the Great Lent before Pascha, before Easter, so we have this period the same. There is some specific dates that are different and the calendars are different, yet the Pascha, itself, is the uniting feast day that we all celebrate, as Orthodox. EK: I also wonder your opinions about American traditions or customs. Are there any American traditions or hobbies, activities, large-scale cultural events you find interesting, fun, or rather odd? IS: Well, certainly, the church integrates itself in the community and of course people come from the community and bring, I guess, the American tradition with them. You cannot really do anything with that and some of them are not harmful. Whether it is a tradition has something to do with the Christmas, even though the story maybe, I guess, completely different from the Christian stories, yet there are some Christmas songs or other things they do similar or for Easter they use bunnies, which that has nothing to do with Pascha itself, yet, I mean it's spring, it's first animals running around. You just accept them, they're not really harmful to the faith itself. We try to explain that to people, they know but it's something nice and it's available in stores. I guess the egg hunt is something unique that I did not know in Ukraine, but here in the United States and Canada, it's really popular among the kids and they love it. Even at home they play egg hunt all year. I guess people like to search things out, the feeling of searching something and finding. You give them hints or you don't give them hints and they like that feeling "I can find it, just give me one hint and I'll try to find it. Something Red. What's red?" Everything red is starting to flicker on! I guess there is some fun in the church as well, it's not that bad. And I guess what's unique in Canada and the United States from Ukraine and Russia is that the churches are built in a smaller communities. And so they started to build those memorials or cultural centers beside the church, so they would have those cultural centers, social clubs, which is not present in Ukraine or Russia. In Russia and Ukraine you would only have the church and you could have some other buildings, but they are not necessarily be a cultural center because the whole church, the whole country, or majority of the country or citizens is Orthodox or Christians. You would have one whole for everybody else and Ukrainian language is the number one language, everyone would use different clubs established for that purpose. There was no need to establish that beside the church, whereas here everybody tries to preserve its own language, community, and so they want to have a place where they come and do things together, so they had to build those cultural centers, so I think that's a unique and also after services, we'd go and have a coffee, have meals and there were often times we'd do other things. Even this parish, in particular, has a strong tradition of raising money from the catering services at the hall to build this church, build this rectory and to sustain itself. Whereas in Ukraine, you don't have that. People just donate their time, talent, and money for the upkeep of the church itself, but there was nothing else for upkeep. And then we have the parish we have in Ukraine, certain Orphanages, certain nurseries and stuff, but here it has a little different shift because the church and the community kind of gather together in one thing. TS: So that's sort of something that appears to be unique here in America. For instance, church is the epicenter of all the activities and everything. Also with universities, they include all the activities and in most parts of Europe that is generally not the case, whereas in university it is meant for strictly educational purposes. Do you have any thoughts on these differences? IS: Yeah in America and because of that vast variety of traditions and languages and nations that you have possibilities to have different areas in the universities in the nation. Some, especially some larger universities would have areas of Russia and different European languages so they would study just that area. Whereas in Ukraine, you may have such schools in the capital city where they would learn something like that, but in the majority of the county you don't have that. And also in Ukraine because it's a mostly Christian country, the government itself has certain things already done for its people, so it's not the church doing the thing, it's the government has done it. And I'm sure it's similar in turkey when they do things or elsewhere when the government does something for the people, even though it does not necessarily have to recognize it, that's the only thing we recognize, yet they will build something for the community that they can use it for the benefit of the community. TS: And you also mentioned a lot of large-scale cultural events here in America. Are there large-scale events in the Ukraine? IS: Yes, but I guess the difference between here and there would be the organizers here would be the parish or the national office. Whereas in Ukraine, you would have regular schools doing things. I guess the shift is who is organizing and who is teaching. In Ukraine, you have religious class in each school, where you would learn something about its Orthodox religion in school. There is one class, where the priest or some lady would come and teach the class to the smaller kids. Whereas here, the church has to or the parish has to teach them in Sunday school. Even though we did have Sunday schools in Ukraine, I believe it was during the Soviet Union, my father would gather all the kids in church and would do a class and explain what icons mean, give them a better outlook on what we have so they can better understand. But now it's done more in schools in Ukraine, whereas here, you don't learn that in school. You have to go to church school to learn that. Also the difference is if you participate in different sports, which nowadays is during the Sunday, kids do not participate in the church so they do not get to Sunday school classes because during the week it's impossible to get them because they have different things going on anyway. But on Sundays has been taken away here so we struggle with the way it's been managed in the community. I know many communities have gathered together and asked those big associations "do not do anything until 2 o'clock on Sunday" so they can have those kids in those services and Sunday school but it's still a big problem. EK: Maybe we can prepare more general questions for the rest of our time. I wonder how you describe America to people of your home country. IS: Well, it's a free country where you can express yourself without much limitations, as in Ukraine they have so much oppression. Whoever is in charge of Ukraine land would do certain things we would not allow in Ukraine land, but you would have to learn Russian or in Poland, you would have to learn polish language and so forth. Whereas here, you're free to use your own language without being scared and so forth. I guess the feeling of being free to do things without followed by people that you're doing something wrong. I mean it's a simple thing that you can express yourself that doesn't have to be punished for. TS: With the increasing Russian totalitarianism with Vladimir Putin, what do you think of his rationale to invade the Crimea and other sort of invasions in the Ukraine? IS: Well there was a, they call "Russian World" or certain organization to compile the same or similar Soviet Union that they had before but they would have different ideas of how to do it. Like they would use Orthodox Church, use Christianity itself as a base. Even though they would not necessarily be Christian, they would not necessarily hold Orthodox values, but they would use it for their own benefit. Now it's being recovered in many cases, where there are still people, even in the Ukraine itself, where they would still wanted to say Byelorussian and Ukraine are Slavic nations that need to be held together and be one nation so that they claimed that everyone tries to separate us so let's be together so we can be a strong nation and so forth. So they manipulate in many ways not to have many countries, but have something strong as the Soviet Union because Russia itself is composed of many different countries and they're not Orthodox, they're of many religions as well. So the Orthodox in Russia, if I'm not wrong, I believe Ukrainian popularity of Orthodox is more popular than Russia itself of Orthodox. This is why Russia has so much pressure on Ukraine because it has so many involved in there. They don't simply want to release it because it is a great manipulation for the government if they use it to manipulate the people. If you have control over certain things, it is really easy to manipulate and press the higher authorities to make lower authorities do something else. TS: And Ukraine is also considered the historical birthplace of that Slavic culture too and Russia is trying to-- IS: Because Russia, in Ukrainian eyes, is the daughter country, but many would say that mother Russia and daughter Kiev, they try to flip things over, but they try to rewrite history and make it a different way. I guess for especially Ukrainians, it's really offensive and they don't like to hear that. [Laughing] TS: Nature of totalitarianism, right? [Laughing] EK: I wondered what possessions you took with you. What important things, if any, did you leave behind? Is there anything you regret leaving behind? IS: Certainly the greater community, as everybody, Ukrainian and Orthodox is sad that I left. I guess you didn't have to worry about your language, you didn't have to worry about your religion. You just go and have fun with whoever you meet, whereas here in America, you have to be careful, not careful but you will not make friends if they don't have the same values as you are or I guess the same traditions. It will be hard to live together if you are not of the same background or at least, if you try to preserve the tradition and language, it will be hard to live with someone who doesn't care about it. They would have to be respective of the traditions and faith that you're, so the two accommodate. TS: So, when you arrived in North America, were there certain core aspects of your life that had changed? Such as your diet, your activities, and your social life? IS: Well there is certainly, I can feel on my body the less I move, it gathers more [laughter]. I have to be careful, in Ukraine that was not the case. We did not have our own vehicles, so we would always travel by bus or other transportation. But most of the time you would walk distances, whether it's church, school. There are no school buses, so most of the time you would walk to school. You would be fit in that way, whereas in America, you have to use vehicle to go to the store, you have use vehicle to go to school, to go elsewhere, and moving less because of that makes you, you have to spend more time in gym and other physical activities to compensate that. So I would see that as a big difference because you don't notice at first, but then over time, you see oh "I have to watch my diet now". I guess the food here is different is as well because many things are really fabricated and done in different ways and uses different ingredients. Whereas in Ukraine, for most of the part, it's done locally from good ingredients. Even though nowadays they use new technology, they use the same things that they use in Europe and America, but yet they will still keep the tradition to use just simply bare products without any chemical interactions or GMO or stuff, so they would really, in that sense. And also in Ukraine, many people own a land. They don't have to own the whole farm like we have here in America where person owns a big area of land where they cultivate and make money from. In Ukraine, everybody has a small, they would have a big area, but at least it is small compared to United States, area where they would have their own potatoes, have their own vegetables, and fruits. You would build yourself, using all those natural sources. Even water, many people in Ukraine still use wells, especially in the villages you would have wells, you have to have. If not, your neighbor has it, so you share it and so forth. Whereas in America, it is not allowed because of bacteria and stuff. TS: What do you think about how America is sort of very fixated on their diet and other things to combat these sorts of diseases that come with increased obesity? Do you think America could benefit from the Ukrainian transportation services and more locally based communities, such as small farming that you mentioned, and other sorts of things that seem to occur in urban planning over in that area? IS: Well, I think it depends where how you look or from what angle you look. Of course, the more you sustain yourself and have your own produce, it is beneficial for the person has those sources, but of course it is damaging for the businesses that have been doing the great business for many years. But I think it is beneficial for a person, and community in general, where a person is active and doing things to support itself without looking into something crazy. Sometimes people are really bored because they don't know what to do, but you always have something to do, you have to cultivate your land and stuff, and the result of it is something to do so there is no time that you can just say there's nothing for me to do here. In that way you don't have as many crazy ideas on what to do with your life and the obesity rates will be lower. But also, the Orthodox faith itself has a great practice of fasting. We have 4 major fasts during the year. One great fast is before Easter, so it's forty-nine days before Easter, forty days major, and then there is a week before Easter. So in that time, we would not have meat or milk products and in some communities even oil isn't allowed on certain days. So if you don't eat those products during this time, your body cleanses, you really see the difference and you can literally get from 5 pounds and more. If you are really into the fasting, you can have 20 pounds just like that during the great lent. We also have other smaller Lents that last for weeks, two weeks and one is variation depending on the Pascha. So, if you use those days, you certainly lose your weight, whether you want or not because you're fasting. But it was also during the year, Wednesdays and Fridays also are fasting days, even though they're not as strict, but yet, in some communities, they are really strict during the Great lent. So you would fast during those days, you have two days per week of fasting and if you're preparing for the communion, there is also a certain fasting period beforehand that you have to prepare yourself. We have certain, life itself in the Orthodox faith makes you, if you're really participating, you're not going to be obese because if you really follow it, it will not happen. At least you will not be as obese, maybe a little extra weight but not as bad. The faith itself teaches Christians how to control yourself, how to set limits on food, how to set limits on other things, and how to control yourself not to get in trouble using those bad habits, smoking, drinking, drugs, and so forth. So I believe, in that area, the church really benefits the community because it will help control all those negative things in the community if you really try to help people because it's really helping. It's not something damaging. TS: And also it seems to show how people value their food and where it comes from and everything during those times of fasting. There's also those health promotional events. IS: Yeah, and also the food itself is for all the Orthodox. It's something we considered that god provided even though we can purchase that food, someone can donate the food and so forth, we consider it as something that god helped us sustain ourselves. So we pray before each meal, we blast the food. In Pascha, we blast the meat and dairy products for us to eat. It's not that it's evil for us to eat during lent and period, but it's a blessing done so everyone can eat but also to have limits for us to work on all those but to also be wise enough not to overcome those limits. EK: We are almost out of time for the interview. I would like to ask one more question before we finish the interview. I wonder that do you ever feel homesick. IS: Well, not really because I have so many things to do and I constantly have things to do so I don't really have time to think about it. But I do sometimes, I guess during the winter, it's snowy all the time and you cannot really even go outside that makes me sometimes wonder to go south somewhere and enjoy some sun a little bit, warm up. Since we have so much frost here, my hands sometimes get numb and stuff. But other than that-- TS: Just want to go down south where it's warm [laughing]-- Well it's been a very productive interview. Thank you so much for volunteering your time and providing us this opportunity. It's been fascinating to learn about your experiences, culture, and the great Orthodox Church. IS: Sure, anytime. EK: Thank you for your contributions to the interview and thank you for your sincere answers to our questions. IS: You're welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ivan Synevsky Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Synevsky, Ivan ; Konuk, Ege ; Sherven, Tyler Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Father Ivan Synevsky was born in Western Ukraine region in 1982. He lived in Ukraine until 2001, when he moved to Canada. He lived in Canada for six years, then got married in the United States in 2007. He attended Holy Cross Greek Theological School in Boston from 2008 to 2010, then was ordained in 2010 in Rhode Island. He had a parish in New Jersey for two years and in 2012, he was transferred to the local parish. He resides in Johnson City with his wife and three children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ivan Synevsky.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-20 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:24 Subject The topic of the resource Synevsky, Ivan. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian—Canadian; Ukraine—History; Soviet Union--History; Eastern Orthodox Church; Priest; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Russia-- History; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright