78 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/05a718f47a5e61246fcbd73ad11f5c3e.jpg 101244ed7ce43f2d18df3e769c6cbb70 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a8e1716992cecb828b5d50455cbf8a32.mp3 54556f28c6abec7b683ab8dfcc8a8ba2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-12-01 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John S. Baky Language English Biographical Text John Baky is the Dean of Libraries, Emeritus & Curator of Rare Books and Manuscripts at La Salle University. He earned his Bachelor’s degree in English literature from Gettysburg College, Master’s degrees from Columbia University and Wesleyan University, and a certificate from Harvard University’s Graduate School of Education. Baky was in the Army (1969-1971) and served in Vietnam from 1970-1971 where he received a Bronze Star.  In 1980 he joined the library staff at LaSalle University where he founded the Imaginative Representations of the Vietnam War Collection that centered on how the transition of that war played out in the literature. He oversaw one of the most unique Special Collections in the world that oversees 3,500 items that include novels, short stories, comics, photography, poetry, films, music (Bob Dylan Collection is special), videos, TV productions, and graphic arts. Baky, from the outset, had first-hand knowledge of Southeast Asia as a former Army First Lieutenant assigned to the infantry division. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address; Jungle School; Vietnam War; Veterans; Military Surplus; Students for a Democratic Society; Sexism; Stonewall riots; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; Dwight D. Eisenhower; Robert McNamara; Civil Rights; Benjamin Spock; Jerry Rubin; Gloria Steinem; Daniel Ellsberg"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address; Jungle School; Vietnam War; Veterans; Military Surplus; Students for a Democratic Society; Sexism; Stonewall riots; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; Dwight D. Eisenhower; Robert McNamara; Civil Rights; Benjamin Spock; Jerry Rubin; Gloria Steinem; Daniel Ellsberg Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 150:15 Subject LCSH Librarians; Soldiers; La Salle University; Baky, John S.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Baky Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Baky, John S. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Librarians; Soldiers; La Salle University; Baky, John S.--Interviews Description An account of the resource John Baky is the Director of Libraries at La Salle University and the Curator of Rare Book and Manuscript. Baky served in the United States Army from 1969-1971,specifically the Vietnam War. He completed his undergraduate work at Gettysburg College. He received a degree in Library Science from Columbia University and a Master’s Degree in Liberal Arts from Wesleyan University. John Baky is the Dean of Libraries, Emeritus & Curator of Rare Books and Manuscripts at La Salle University. He earned his Bachelor’s degree in English literature from Gettysburg College, Master’s degrees from Columbia University and Wesleyan University, and a certificate from Harvard University’s Graduate School of Education. Baky was in the Army (1969-1971) and served in Vietnam from 1970-1971 where he received a Bronze Star. In 1980 he joined the library staff at LaSalle University where he founded the Imaginative Representations of the Vietnam War Collection that centered on how the transition of that war played out in the literature. He oversaw one of the most unique Special Collections in the world that oversees 3,500 items that include novels, short stories, comics, photography, poetry, films, music (Bob Dylan Collection is special), videos, TV productions, and graphic arts. Baky, from the outset, had first-hand knowledge of Southeast Asia as a former Army First Lieutenant assigned to the infantry division. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-12-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.18a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.18b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 150:15 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/36d5e939b1fb288788da1dc53beb3499.jpg 7199018b63359b5933762f9bfe95c465 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/881c179ea47786421de2b68ee2136148.mp3 f19560efa24bdf6e294ed676d48f9d30 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1996 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John J. Burns, 1921-2004 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John J. Burns (1921-2004) was New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6915,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"}">John J. Burns (1921-2004) was the New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"War protests; Traditional American household; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":833,"3":{"1":0},"9":0,"11":4,"12":0}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"War protests; Traditional American household; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":833,"3":{"1":0},"9":0,"11":4,"12":0}">War protests; Nineteen sixties; Early nineteen seventies; Traditional American household; Drugs; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Vietnam veterans; Vietnam memorial; Broome County Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:14 Subject LCSH Politicians--United States--New York; Democratic Party (N.Y.); Burns, John J., 1921-2004--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Burns Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: William Palmer Date of interview: 1996 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:22 SM: My first question is, the boomer generation in the (19)60s and early (19)70s is being attacked as one of the reasons for the breakdown of American society. Could you respond to this criticism and comment on the period and its impact on present day America? 00:48 JB: The boomer generation is being blamed? 00:52 SM: A lot of things that I hear, whether it be the Christian coalition or commentary for the Republican Party ̶ A lot of times they go back to events of the 1960s era to blame and then they start blaming the generation that grew up then 01:06 JB: Of course they [the boomers] were then in their teens or maybe 20 years old. Well, I think the (19)60s was an era when we went through very historic and difficult times. We had three assassinations, John Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy. And I think early in the (19)60s there was great hope for our country among the young people that, you know, that generation slightly older than them [boomers]. And as a result of the assassination, I think I lost that hope. Mixed in with that was the feeling that the Vietnam War was not a war that we should be fighting and many, many people of that age group protested the war. I think the hippie movement was sort of a statement of their objections to what was happening in our country and to our country. And many of them have turned out to be conservative people. They grew out of it, in other words, I do not think they are to blame for anything that is wrong with our country. I think the problems in our country are caused by all problems that are covered here caused by economics and by social changes. Economics brings about social changes. For example, many families in the late (19)50s and early (19)60s had one parent at home with the children, young children as well as teenagers. And as time went on, to maintain, to make a living, both parents had to work. Of course a lot of women wanted to work anyway. They wanted to be more than just a housewife. So we end up with families with nobody home. And we also have growing [unintelligible] in regard to marriage. Marriage is not as permanent as it was in my generation. People get married and then they get divorced. Some people never marry, but they have children anyway. And these things have all created many problems, social problems. Also mixed within this same picture was the increase in drug use. Some of the people in that generation did a lot of drugs, particularly marijuana, and they got into stronger drugs. And if you saw pictures of the big gathering out at Woodstock, yeah. A lot of drug use going on there, a lot of smoking and all that. And a lot of experimentation with drugs that went on. I think the advent of drugs into society has taken a big toll as well. I think that many of them [boomers] toyed with it and then went off it and are now serious citizens with families and everything else. But there is some that ruin their lives. 05:31 SM: Bringing up some of these issues that divorce out in California ̶ 50 percent of people getting married get divorced. Yeah, almost 50 percent in our society are getting divorced. Certainly there was drug use during that period, but we see a tremendous rise of drugs now in our high schools and colleges. These are the sons and daughters of boomers. You have made a comment that you did not think that a lot of the problems in society today were based on the boomers. But you raised these issues. 06:02 JB: Right. I do not think they caused it, they lived through it. I do not think the boomers caused a lot of that. I mean, some of them caused drug use. Yeah. But they certainly did not cause the need for, for two parents to work. That was caused by cost of living [unintelligible], right? You may be right to a degree that they have a different attitude than their parents did, I am talking about the boomers now. About marriage, as I said, about family. And they, their generation, you know, brought about a lot of changes in the society and I think there are a lot of good people in the movement. I do not think they are trying to mess things up or anything like that. I think they are trying to live their lives. And they became more open. It was inevitable that there are a lot of people in bad marriages and it made sense that they get out of a bad marriage. While in my generation, they would stay in a bad marriage. And I am not an advocate of divorce. I am not. I can see there are times when divorce is better for everyone concerned. So now you got into, you know, the syndrome of not staying married or not even getting married. And still they have children. And the children pay the price for that. 07:56 SM: Yeah, it is just a general question. Based on everything you have been saying here and the questions I have been asking so far, looking at 1996 we could say that the boomers ̶ which is basically sixty-five million people who were born between 1946 to 1964. That is the category that uses that. That their impact is positive or negative in America. Too early to tell? 08:25 JB: I think it is early to tell. I think that for me, they are only 22 years old now. They are just getting out of college [youngest boomers, born in 1964, were thirty-two years old at the time of this interview]. I think that I do not know how to describe it exactly. But there are a lot of social problems about gangs. We were talking about this generation. We thought we were thinking that it was middle income people. Gangs are really a problem in the blighted areas, in the slums, they are a big social problem for communities. And so to answer your question, I think it is mixed. I think that some in that generation are causing more problems than prior generations and others are responsible people. I would not blame the whole generation, everybody in that generation, for problems that come along. 09:37 SM: We talked about the death of those three men, two of them that you knew quite well ̶ John and Robert Kennedy ̶ and Martin Luther King. I was like eleven, I think, when John Kennedy was killed. And it really affected me. It really did. Actually I was fourteen, excuse me. And then Bobby Kennedy and Dr. King, I was at SUNY Binghamton at the time that happened and was in a two month period of time. 09:47 JB: It was a real blow. 10:07 SM: When you read the literature on the (19)60s and early (19)70s, only 15 percent of the people were really involved in protest or activism of any kind. 85 percent went along with their normal daily activities. As the years progressed, what effects did those three deaths have on not only that 15 percent, but everyone ̶ whether it be the conscious or the subconscious? I know you were close to John and Robert Kennedy, and their deaths affected you personally. But what about the boomers of my era, like your children? What effect did these assassinations have on them as they grew older, raised families and tried to get involved in things? 10:52 JB: A lot of people lost hope for the future. It was still America, but they were worried about America being a place where leaders can be assassinated. They were worried about the fact that people that stand for something can be killed off. And then there was really no one that took their place in the eyes of that generation. They became discouraged, and I think a lot of them lost interest in voting and participating in government. While under John Kennedy, for example, he started the Peace Corps. He brought a lot of young people into government, he got people enthusiastic about the future of our country. And then when he was shot, and then followed by Bobby, it was like, people just lost hope. It took a long time to try to turn people around. It will never come around to the way it was; the enthusiasm, the thrill of being in one of those campaigns and that people still felt it is a great country and they wanted to do things to help make it better. 12:13 SM: Around the same time, trust in leadership [unintelligible]. 12:21 JB: The Nixon Watergate stuff, people lost trust in their leaders and their government. The good guys were killed off and the bad guys were in charge. I think that is probably one of the reasons that some of them [boomers] really started having an attitude. They did not give a damn. They got into things they should not have. 12:50 SM: This is kind of a side note question, but if Bobby had lived, do you think he would have won it? 12:57 JB: I think he would have, yeah. I was involved in it. I was running the New York State campaign and we started when he first announced he was running against LBJ [Lyndon B. Johnson] ̶ LBJ was still campaigning at that point. It was around St. Patty's Day, in March. We started polling in New York State and it was all against him within the Democratic Party. We had been polling just Democrats for the primary. But as time went on, it began changing, changing, changing. LBJ dropped out and McCarthy was in the picture. But Bobby was emerging as a victor in New York. He had won in California before he was killed. It was a similar situation there. He had the emphasis, you know, going for him. We will never know really, but I think he could have pulled it off and I think he would have won. 13:57 SM: I think one of the greatest speeches I ever heard was an impromptu one Bobby gave in Indianapolis after Martin Luther King was killed. 14:04 JB: Oh, yeah, I remember that very well. 14:07 SM: And of course you see it when you go to Washington. What really amazes me, and I have been reading a lot of history, is that the Bobby Kennedy we saw on those committees early on, in the (19)50s, is not the same Bobby Kennedy we saw in (19)68. 14:22 JB: Absolutely. He did a [unintelligible] to become much more compassionate, more liberal minded than he was in those days. And what he said in Indianapolis to a black audience which he gathered in a black neighborhood. "Sorry, my brother was killed by a white man." It was an important thing to say. 14:58 SM: He knew that it was a dangerous area. Skellington right? Yeah. 15:04 JB: So I think that people who got into drugs experimentally, thinking it is just a temporary thing in their lives. You know, some of them did not realize how these drugs can hook them, how they can become addicted. And so I think we had more addiction problems than we did later on. The statistics show there is less kids in high school trying drugs than there used to be. But we still have a lot of drug activity here. And a lot more arrests recently that are bigger. We had a big arrest yesterday. We had another big trial a month ago, which showed that this one drug dealer made millions of dollars right here in Binghamton and Broome County. Somebody's using the drugs. It was not just the one hundred or two hundred people they complain about who moved up from New York City. Got to be thousands of people using drugs here. And destroying lives right in the middle class, in the upper classes. They caught a guy selling drugs in front of Vestal High School not too long ago. Right in front of the school. This is really bad. Terrible. So, It is an ongoing problem for the children of the boomers and the boomers participated, many of them in the drug scene, but many of them survived and straightened out their lives pretty well. 16:45 SM: So my next question is, what can today's generation of youth learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? This question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s is a period of activism, drugs and single minded issues. So many of the same issues remain. There are new ones and the lessons of the past are either not taught in schools or never discussed between parents and today's generation. Please give your thoughts on the issues in boomer's lives and how they can have an impact on students' lives today. 17:20 JB: I think they could do a lot to help curtail drug use. They can tell their experience, they could tell them first hand and even if not themselves than somebody they knew, who had a real problem and that by flirting with drugs, they were only going to get into trouble. And I think they could do more of that and talk to their children. I know when I was the Democratic State Chairman, I was out of town a lot. And I regret it, but I was not around my kids as much as I should have been. I was around them all weekend every weekend. You know, I did not know what they were doing or where they were going. We had a big family, hard to keep track of everybody. So I think they owe it to their kids to make sure that they understand the dire consequences of drug use and not to experiment with them just for a lark. Alcohol use is also bad. It is an addictive chemical just like other drugs. They could set examples by not drinking in front of them or using pot or whatever they might like to use and train them along that way. I think the example is more effective. Sometimes parents say do not do what I do, do what I say. Parents say, do not do this and do not do that and then they do it themselves. You know, like, a kid comes home from using drugs and a drunken father balls them out. It does not really have a lot of impact, you know what I mean? But I think that they can set an example for their kids. This is one thing they can do for them that will be very useful. I know. I never drank, I did years ago before we were married. And kids now tell me that it meant a lot to them that I did not drink. Neither my wife nor I drank. 19:46 SM: You have kids that are boomers who have their own kids. They may also be getting kids ready to go to college or something down the road. What can you say about communicating and not being around your kids, but then spending quality time on weekends? What are your children teaching their kids, and what are they telling them about the experiences that they went through when they were young? What are boomers sharing with today's young people about Bobby Kennedy, Dr. King, John Kennedy, the civil rights movement, protests against Vietnam, the women's movement, the environmental movement? Do you think there is a sharing going on between boomers and their kids? 20:40 JB: I do not know. That is a good question. I think they should. They accomplished a lot. I think they are responsible for the end of the Vietnam War. And I think that work they have done on the environment has helped a lot. Legislators and chief executives do not propose or pass laws that are not popular. By demonstrating the need for environmental laws that a lot of people support, those laws came into being. I think that the women's movement is another example. One ̶ I think that they made a lot of progress. Certainly the civil rights movement has made a lot of progress. It still has a long way to go. If you go back to when I was a kid, I did not even think about it, you know? We just regarded black kids in school as somebody you would say hello to, but never see outside of school. They were never in fraternities. In those days we had fraternities in Binghamton Central High School. Some would not take Catholics, some took Catholics but would not take Jews, and there was one just for Jews. The black kids were like part of the furniture, I mean, they were not anything in the social structure of the student body. As I changed a lot now, much better. But from those days, you know, back in the (19)30s, when I was growing up, until now there has been a big change. There is still a lot of racial hatred and racial problems in society. These kids can be inspired to do something about it by the boomers. The boomers are the ones that demonstrated ̶ did you say that only like 15 percent demonstrated, I did not realize it was that low a figure. Obviously, there were some that did not agree with what the demonstrators were doing. 23:05 SM: The "hard hats" in New York. 23:08 JB: No, I mean, among the boomers themselves, those that did not see eye-to-eye with the protesters. 23:12 SM: The premise is out there, it is very easy now to bash the boomers and blame everything on them. And I am trying to find out if, you know, not based on my feelings, but on other people's feelings, if there is some validity to that charge, or if it is ridiculous. For example, people that were involved in the civil rights movement and people that were involved in the protests against the Vietnam War in the (19)60s ̶ especially in the civil rights movement ̶ are still supportive of affirmative action at universities. And they are being attacked for taking over universities. The people that are involved in these causes had a passion and that passion continues. A lot of young people today will look at boomers and say that was something from the past. But the issues are still the same. I am concerned that that is what is happening today. When I go down to the Vietnam Memorial, and I keep hearing over and over again, the charge against Bill Clinton that he protested against the Vietnam War in Russia when he was over there. And people cannot forgive him for that. So it is like, what is this? Everything seems to come back to the boomers in trouble. 24:37 JB: There were people who went to Vietnam, you know, and served over there, and were killed there; and some may still be there. Many of them have always been disappointed that they were not regarded as the heroes that the guys from World War II were. Yet they only did what they were supposed to do. They were drafted, most of them. They went where they were told to go, they did what they were supposed to do. But they were not regarded as heroes like the veterans of World War II. 25:17 SM: I can remember when I was a SUNY student, and my dad was getting gas at one of the gas stations near Broome Tech. And this guy drove up in a car that had an American flag on the side. Well, at that period of time, people that were putting a flag on the car, [were making a statement] I am a better American than you are. 25:34 JB: The right wingers. 25:34 SM: Yes. I just about flipped out, but I did not do anything. I remained calm. But I said “No.” Nowadays, it is okay. How different society is. 25:50 JB: Republicans regarded themselves as more patriotic than the Democrats. The Democrats were more associated with the hippies, the women's movement, the anti-war movement, all that. Conservative people want to stop time, to just freeze time. It does not happen, everything changes. You can never go back to the way it was. 26:26 SM: If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, describe the qualities you most admired in them? Just a couple of things. 26:38 JB: Well, I admired many in the boomer generation for what they believe. They put aside traditions that were in their way. [garbled] I was the State Democratic Chairman when the legislature had the eighteen year old vote coming up. I worked hard, with a lot of others, to get that passed through the legislature. So we have an eighteen year old vote. We got the eighteen year old vote, but not enough of them voted. 27:35 SM: What year was that? 1968? 27:38 JB: Late (19)60s, right? Certainly ever since then, it has been that way. There are a lot of kids that turn eighteen, some are still in high school. They were just coming out, they first vote, they were just graduating that year. 28:02 SM: The young people wanted that vote. The slogan of the boomers was: "We are old enough to go to war, we should be old enough to vote." And they got the vote. I think (19)68 was the first year ̶ Humphry against Nixon. Now, not only do not they vote, but their kids do not vote. 28:30 JB: I think the kids lost hope at right around the same time. The assassinations, and then Nixon came along and had Watergate, people lost faith in government. And they still have lost faith in government. A lot of people do not trust government, even in the right wing. You got these nuts that form militias around the places. They do not trust the government. I think that is an extreme case. But there are people that do not like the government, they do not trust the government. And they do not bother voting. They do not think voting means anything. They do not think it is going to change their life, which is too bad. They think it is not going to change their life any, which is too bad. It can definitely change their life. 29:26 SM: That old slogan around the world that people have died to vote. Here they have it, and are not doing it. 29:35 JB: Look what happened in South Africa a couple of years ago. The first vote that these black people had, they stood in line seven, eight hours in the hot sun to cast their vote. And here, you do not have to do that. You do not even bother voting. It is too bad. 29:56 SM: This question might be repetitive, but have you changed your opinion on the youth of the (19)60s over the last twenty five years, the opinion that you had in politics, as mayor, and then today? 30:07 JB: Change my opinion of them? Well, they have grown and they have matured and they are not the same. So it is hard to say. I have read where some of the outstanding radicals of the (19)60s became, you know, sort of middle ground or conservative adults. Now, I think that has happened to a lot of them. I did not really change my mind about them. It ̶ I just watched them change. 30:53 SM: My generation, especially in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, believed that we are the most unique generation in American history. we are going to change the world, we are going to make things better. 31:05 JB: Right. 31:06 SM: Like it has never been the Age of Aquarius. Listen to the music of that era. Anyway, so what is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? 32:22 JB: Oh, well, I guess the lasting legacy is that they survived a tumultuous time in our history. They participated in the civil rights movement, the women's movement, and the anti-war movement. Democracy still works. I guess that is about all I can think of. They still have time to go, to do more for their country before they get to the senior citizens. 33:10 SM: What role, if any, does activism in the boomer generation penetrate into the lives of their children, Generation X? 33:22 JB: You mean in terms of there being people that volunteer and do things like that? 33:27 SM: The whole activist mentality, being change agents for society. 33:37 JB: To what degree does it affect their next generation? Well, there is a drop off, but I think it does affect it. People tend to carry on the tradition of their parents many times, especially when it comes to things of importance like that; especially toward the things that are significant. My kids are all Liberal Democrats. They think it is the only logical way to be. I think I will pass that on to their kids. I think others will do the same thing as Republicans. I know there are some that drop off. I know I have seen kids who are Republicans and their fathers are Democrats, and vice versa. But they are in the minority. You would think that kids would know from day one. In my generation, I was very much aware of what Roosevelt did for our country in terms of all the New Deal legislation and New Deal reforms and the job creating things that he did. That brought me closer to the Democratic Party than just the fact that my parents were Democrats. But my children do not know, and certainly my grandchildren will not know where social security came from. They will not be that much attached to the Democratic Party as I was because of social security or unemployment insurance, and so many other things. I think there is a certain drop off of fidelity to a party as each generation comes along and is more and more independent in their thinking. 34:37 SM: That is good! I want to ask this question again because I think we may have missed it. Do you think it is possible to heal within the generation where differences in positions taken were so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care? 36:09 JB: I think we should try to continue in the healing process. I think, as you mentioned earlier, that the Vietnam Memorial in Washington and other activities can be of help to start the healing process for Vietnam veterans. They feel better about the fact that the country regards them highly, and they were doing what they did for patriotic reasons. Other than the Vietnam Veterans, I think that there should be healing. Some of us naturally know the old saying "time heals all wounds." People that were mad at people who were against the war and people that were mad at people who supported the war have now lived and worked together for a couple of decades. I think they see that the other side is not all that bad, that they are good people. They may still disagree, but they come together, they live in a community together, and they live in our country together. I think the healing process takes place between individuals. 37:16 SM: To take off on that, when we met with Senator Muskie he said that the Civil War generation went to their graves filled with hatred for the South, or the North despite the efforts of these reunions in Gettysburg and that Reconstruction was not a good era. I personally go to the Vietnam Memorial celebrations and Veterans Day in Washington these last couple of years, and I have seen the things that they are wearing on their jackets. This is supposed to be a non-political entity. The Wall [the Vietnam War Memorial] was built to be a non-political entity in honor of those who served and died for their country. Yet you see all these political statements being worn on jackets and jerseys of Jane Fonda Bitch, and comments about Bill Clinton. They had Peter Arnett there this past year. 38:33 JB: He went behind the lines in Iraq, right? 38:37 SM: Right. I heard some Vietnam veterans saying "Why did I come to hear this guy because he wrote bad, terrible things about us?" They are against the reporters. I am wondering how much healing is really taking place. My main concern is, is the boomer generation really going to heal? Or are they going to go to their graves with bitterness? 39:03 JB: I think some individuals are going to go to their graves with bitterness, but I think overall there will be more healing than not. I do not know if you know Tim Grippen, he is our county executive. He had part of his face blown away in Vietnam. It took a long time for plastic surgeons and others to repair his face. His face is, you can tell what happened. He has been very active with the Vietnam Veterans. Here is a guy that came back and went to graduate school at Syracuse University studying public administration. Now he is the county executive, and he has no bad feelings; and there a lot of them. He is in touch with all the Vietnam veterans in Broome County. He is a role model for them. There are people out there like that, that do not say Jane Fonda Bitch. He is a Democrat and a supporter of Bill Clinton. It might be a good idea if you could talk to him some time. 40:07 SM: What is his name? 40:17 JB: Tim Grippen-- G R I P P E N. He is the County Executive of Broome County. [garbled] I think that some diehards will never change. But there are those who, as time goes on, they will see someone that they like who sees things differently. They will soften up a bit. 40:42 SM: I want to say that, for example, during my many trips to the Wall, I attended several ceremonies with veterans in the audience. They hate Bill Clinton, they hate Jane Fonda, and they hate those who protested the war and never gave veterans the royal welcome on their return to the mainland. The Wall has helped [garbled], but the hate remains for those on the other side. [garbled] 41:19 JB: In fact, there is a replica of that Wall they bring around to different communities. It is smaller in size. They had one here for a week. All kinds of people went down and saw it. And I felt that there was a feeling like there is a lot of people like me who were against the war, but who still feel that those guys did a job for us and they were doing it for their country. We cannot blame them for something that they had nothing to do with. They are not responsible for it, and I think they should be honored. There are a lot of people that feel that way. I do not think that there is going to be any healing. I think among some people, that is true, but I do not think it is a majority. 41:50 SM: That is right. Do you think we will ever have trust for elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate? 42:19 JB: Well, I do not know. I think that is one of the big problems Bill Clinton is having right now. Whitewater and all the related investigations are going on about his character and his wife's character. Even if he wins the election, which I think he will, People may not regard him as they would George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. Although in his day, Lincoln was not as popular as he is now; he had a lot of detractors. Now we look at him like a saint. I am a follower of Abraham Lincoln [garbled] but there were people then that did not think he was a saint. Thomas Jefferson had a lot of people that hated his guts. I do not know about Washington. He was a war hero, so maybe he enjoyed a better reputation with the public of his day. You know, when Harry Truman left office, he was quite unpopular. He had fired MacArthur who was a big war hero. [garbled] Over a period of time, while he was still living, but as former president, he gained back his popularity by far. He was very popular towards the end of his time. So, you never know about that. 44:02 SM: How did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that and future generations? 44:08 JB: I think protesters against the war helped those of us who were Democratic officials come around to seeing their point of view. We started out like, he is the elected president and he wants us in there and we are going to support our president. Finally, after seeing how sincere and how widespread their [the protesters] feelings were, we could understand their point of view. I supported it. 44:52 SM: What did you think at the time when that was happening? 45:04 JB: In my position as Democratic State Chairman, we had people for the war and people against the war. Mccarthyites were against it early on, even before Bobby Kennedy came out against it. I was trying to hold the party together. I did not take a position on it because I thought that it was a unique situation, position, to be in. But I did after Bobby Kennedy came on and then I got to know Al Lowenstein, leader of the group, and others. I did come out against the war. We had to elect Kennedy President and I was the one that was like the mediator between warring sides and all that sort of thing within the party. Yeah. 45:59 SM: At that time when you saw some of the politicians changing the lives of young people. And then you eventually came on that side yourself. Had this ever happened before in American history that a generation of youth had this kind of impact? 46:17 JB: I think there have been protests before, but not all young people. Young people really brought this about. 46:28 SM: When the best history books are written about the growing up years of the boomers, say twenty-five from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers? They are just reaching fifty now. When their history books are written, and the best history books are written fifty years after an event ̶ when the best history books on the growing up years for the boomers, say twenty-five to fifty years from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers, then? 47:00 JB: Well, I think their generation, as we mentioned a little while ago, was the main force behind getting the war stopped. They were the main force of getting Lyndon Johnson to drop out of the race for re-election. There was turmoil going on in the country, much of it caused by that generation. I was the chairman of the New York State delegation at the Democratic Convention (1968), which then was the largest delegation in the country. Then we were larger than California. That was a tumultuous time in Chicago. Outside there were all sorts of demonstrations going on. At one point half my delegation was in jail. We had a candlelight parade that was not supposed to go over a line the police drew, they went over the line, and they all got thrown in jail. Yeah, (19)68. All sorts of things happened that really reflected what was going on in the country, much more than the Republican Convention, which was just an orchestrated political rally. But my point is that the boomer generation was responsible for that. If they had not had the guts to do it, it would not have been done. I do not think any political leader could have been comfortable out there without their support as a political leader on their side ̶ and maybe not gotten any votes without their support. 48:06 SM: (19)68, right? Last question here. Youth believed they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)60s and (19)70s ̶ Vietnam, draft, civil rights legislation, nonviolent protests, multiple movements ̶̶ in other words, a sense of empowerment. Why is society resisting this today? And why, in your own words, do the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society, in some respects, less desire and seeing less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this in this question? 49:28 JB: No, no, I think you are right. It is hard to say why they feel that way, talking about the X generation, right? I do not know, they do not seem to relate, that is why I think the boomer generation has to tell them what happened and make it more personal to them. There are a couple of movies they can see, like "Born on the Fourth of July," an Oliver Stone movie and things like that were really very powerful and would be real good for the next generation to see. But I do not know why, as I say, there is a fall off of enthusiasm with each generation for a given cause. They have done that, they have fallen off. Maybe they need a new cause? Maybe they need something to happen to bring them all together to fight for a cause? Because the fight itself is exciting, the fight itself gives them a lot of spirit and a lot of dedication. 50:21 SM: That is what so many young people tell me, that there is no cause. 50:59 JB: So writing this book, when do you finish with your interviews? 51:03 SM: Actually it is going to probably be about eighteen months of interviews, because I work full time and I have not been able to take time off from work and we take a lot of trips to Washington. 51:13 JB: And you will have to analyze all the interviews. 51:15 SM: Yeah, what I am going to do is ̶ 51:20 JB: And computerize some of it? Transcribe them and a secretary I am going to hire to type the things. Basically going to mostly be verbatim from the interviews so that I am not being judgmental. I want the people who read them to make their decisions. Yeah. 51:33 SM: My goal was to interview three hundred people. That is a lot. 51:37 JB: That is a lot, yeah ̶ 51:39 SM: And by three hundred people, it could be two hundred interviews. I can have ten Vietnam veterans in a room. But in the end, I hope that I can do something to add to the discussion because I am real concerned. I have been in universities now for seventeen years and I am trying to analyze what the boomers have done, and what their influence has been myself. And I want to find out more. 51:45 JB: Oh, I get you. 52:12 SM: I do want to, just on these names that got cut out here, I did write some notes. Just read and respond on a couple of these names if you can. Jane Fonda. 52:23 JB: She has a lot of courage and integrity. She knew she would be very unpopular for what she did. But I think she, I think her meaning was to help her country and not the opposite as some people claim. She wanted to help her country by getting it out of the war. 52:43 SM: And then Tom Hayden. 52:50 JB: Tom Hayden? I think he looks good. He has been elected many times out of the California legislature, so he has a constituency. He was a rabble rouser in the minds of some people. As you mentioned he has come to Chicago, this time as a delegate instead of a protester. I think a lot of people that protested the war, who were regarded at that time as troublemakers are now regarded as the guys who were on the right side ̶ including the President [Bill Clinton]. 53:24 SM: Lyndon Johnson. 53:28 JB: Lyndon Johnson, I said, except for the war. I mean, his effect on .generation was the war, the main thing was the war. And they scorned him for it. But except for the war, If you could set that aside, he had a marvelous record of social legislation. 53:46 SM: And Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy. 53:48 JB: Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy were the most inspirational leaders we have ever had in my lifetime. They brought hope to young people and stood for the good things in government. They tried to get young people involved in the government and bring them into working in the government and doing good things for their country. And they brought the tragic, patriotic feelings to people. 54:18 SM: And Richard Nixon and Timothy Leary. 54:21 JB: Well, Richard Nixon was a pitiful case. He was a brilliant man in some respects. He was very paranoid, and I think he was a mean spirited guy in many, many ways. In some ways he did some good things as president, but overshadowed by Watergate, by his lying to the public. Timothy Leary I think was a nut case and a very bad influence. As a Harvard professor, that brings some prestige to just that title. He did have an effect on a lot of young people. He got a lot of young people into the habit of drug selling and that the use of drugs is good for them and the wonderful experience, they should do it. I do not know how many lives he ruined, but he must have ruined some. It was very bad for our country. 55:14 SM: And then the last three names ̶ Dr. King, George McGovern, and Daniel Ellsberg. 55:22 JB: Martin Luther King was an inspirational leader for all people of all colors, because he did some very difficult, almost impossible things. And he brought about these things in a nonviolent way. He preached nonviolence just like Mahatma Gandhi in India, like Jesus Christ did. I mean, he saw what was wrong, he wanted to right it, but he wanted to right it without any physical harm to anybody. And I think that made him a great, great American. Who is the next one named? George McGovern, a very decent man, was a good leader, was with a great senator. He was very concerned about hunger and work done on hunger within America for many years in the Senate. I think he got a bum rap when he ran for president. He was running against Nixon, I think. He was perceived by the public as sort of like involved with the hippies and the left wing and that he was not a solid guy. He was a very solid guy. Daniel Ellsberg was a man of principle and n he did what he thought was right. 56:45 SM: Senator (Eugene) McCarthy? 56:45 JB: Senator McCarthy was a man of principle. I think he had some guts to do what he did. I do not think it was a personable guy, but that is just a personal thing. 57:01 SM: Any final thoughts you want to say at all? 57:04 JB: I have said enough I think. It was an interesting era to play some role, a lot of history there, you know. We had some high spots and low spots. The lowest of course for me was when Robert Kennedy was assassinated. 57:22 SM: Is Allard Lowenstein buried in an unmarked grave between Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy at Arlington. I heard that he was., 57:31 JB: I never knew that. I do not know where he is buried. 57:35 SM: I was in California when he was shot by one of his friends. 57:40 JB: There was a guy with all sorts of energy, I will tell you. I worked for him to win for Congress. He ran in Brooklyn against an old guy named John Rooney who was part of the Democratic establishment in Brooklyn. He had been in Congress for years, the chairman of some important committee. Anyway, I worked for Al, much to the disdain of Lee Esposito, who was the Brooklyn leader at the time and lost that election. He did go to Congress, I think from another district out in Long Island for one term. He [Esposito] came back to Brooklyn, got beat out there the second time. I knew his wife, I knew him. A very interesting guy. 58:31 SM: [garbled] 58:43 JB: Al Lowenstein had a way of organizing students better than anyone I ever heard of. He was a hero on the campuses. He knew how to get things done. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Burns Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Burns, John J., 1921-2004 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Politicians--United States--New York; Democratic Party (N.Y.); Burns, John J., 1921-2004--Interviews Description An account of the resource John J. Burns (1921-2004) was the New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.181 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 59:14 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc33a44a045a9375a12d98a6cad46f1a.jpg 854c4aa8ddb1ade16914a8c9fb7c9324 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9eef207a6d0e2fd23611421b3ce022c1.mp3 61e03e23844f18cf8299ec9125939447 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Burns Jr. Biographical Text John Burns Jr. is the fourth oldest of 12 children of Binghamton's former Mayor, John Burns. He lived for several years in Albany, NY, where he owned a restaurant called Downtown Johnny’s. After many years in the restaurant business, he moved to Jupiter, Florida, where he ran a real estate practice. John eventually moved back to Binghamton, where he excelled in real estate and raised all of his 3 children who attended the Binghamton School District. Now, he has 2 grandchildren, Johnny and Lincoln. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:04:27 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords 1960s; Mayor John Burns; Rockefeller; John F. Kennedy; PT 109; McCarthy; Cuban Missile Crisis; Robert Kennedy; Bobby Kennedy; assassination; 1968 Democratic National Convention Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Burns Jr. Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:00 SM: All right. Let me put you on the, on the speakerphone. Hold on. Can you hear me? 00:11 JB: Yeah. 00:11 SM: Okay, great. Yep, that comes over good. Well, first off, I want to [crosstalk], I want to thank you, Mr. Burns for agreeing to do this. I was a big fan of your dad. He was here when I was a student at Binghamton. So, but– 00:25 JB: Right-right. 00:26 SM: –but– 00:27 JB: Okay, [crosstalk] 00:28 SM: The first question, the first question I want to ask is if you could tell me a little bit about yourself growing your-your growing up years, where were you grew up, your family. Those early influences on your life. 00:41 JB: Yeah. Okay. So, you want me to start right now on that? 00:50 SM: Yes. 00:52 JB: Okay. Well, let us see. I am the fourth oldest of 12 children of John and Theresa Burns. John Burns was when I was growing up, he became- I was born in (19)51. The last day of (19)51. He-he was elected mayor in (19)57, and started his term in (19)58, what could have been (19)58 or (19)58. Anyway. So, I was [inaudible] as a young kid, he became mayor. Those were the days of urban renewal. I will get flowing here [inaudible]. Alright, so. So, growing up, you know, a lot of this, Kennedy related relates to my father and his background, and then, you know, I was I was part of it. But so anyway, so I grew up in a house back in (19)50s, early (19)60s, they paid the mayor 15,000 a year. So, we, so we were not rich, and we were not totally poor. But that was just the way it was. So-so we were Irish Catholic. My father was a was elected mayor. He followed another Democrat that had served two terms. And Binghamton at that time was two to one Republican. And so urban renewal and the and the dawn of the American highway system. That was what was going at the, in those days, early (19)60s. The, you know, they were putting a highway route 81 and 17. That is what Binghamton is the capital of two rivers, the Susquehanna and Chenango rivers and the-the two highways of 17 and 81, and now 17 I think it is getting converted to 86. So anyway, so there was, you know, there is a lot of complaining about urban renewal, you know, that they were tearing down buildings that were historic, and a lot of there is a lot of truth to that, that you know, that they were tearing down historic buildings, to replace with, you know, modern, what have you, and parking, but at the same time, there was no money in those days to restore those kinds of buildings. They did, they did keep a lot of buildings, you know, Binghamton still has a lot of nice historic buildings, but they did have to make room for multi-level parking lots, you know, new, they built a new city hall, etc., etc. But John Burns was part of that. John you know, Mayor John Burns as part of that, but he was not, you know, like the only driving force, you know, they took administration before him to get the ball rolling. So anyway, John Burns, at that time Robert Kennedy you know, as you know, President Kennedy was assassinated in (19)63. And so about I do not know, a year after that, or two years after that. Attorney General, I guess it was the former Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, started a campaign and started putting together a campaign to run for the United States Senate from New York. And I remember they called him a carpet bagger and what kinds of things but there was a lot, he was a popular guy. People loved him. And, you know, a lot of you know, came from just the Kennedy family in general. But so anyways, his-his main residence was in Alexandria, Virginia, we actually went down there once and visited at a big fundraiser they had. But anyway, so-so, as I recall, Senator Kennedy asked my father, to assist him, as maybe his upstate campaign manager, I guess you would call it, I do not know, if there was an official title. And then Mayor Wagner of New York was the you know, the downstate campaign manager, and you would see them both at different events in Albany with-with the Attorney General. So then, my father, oh no, I got to, I got to tell you. Just go back two years, I think or one year. My father ran, he was drafted at the convention to run against Rockefeller and Wilson, and the Democratic ticket was Robert Morgenthau and John Burns. And, and that was what gave him the Upstate notoriety and relationships that he developed with other mayors and executives in upstate New York, you know, Rochester, Buffalo, Albany. So, you know, because of that suicide mission of running for governor against Rockefeller, the, you know, it helped his political career. You know, notoriety in the state and downstate too, so. So, then, so Kennedy decides to run, my father is, is helping him with the upstate campaign, he travels around the state with him, and they become fast friends. And there was some synergy between them, you know, they were both all Irish, my father's 100 percent Irish family that came to the country in (18)48 famines. And-and anyway, so, you know, his great, grandfather, came from Ireland, that kind of. So, let us see. So-so they became good friends, John Burns had 12 children, and oh, was-was having 12 children during that time. And, and Kennedy had, I do not know, I think he had like, 10 or 11, or something like that. Yeah, he had 11 kids, so we had him beat on that one. Anyway, yeah that is right. So, they were, they were good friends. You know, during that period, my father, you know, we always tell a couple of stories about how my mother's home during the week, and Dad was, well, this is after the well, getting ahead of myself. So, my father tells us one story he calls up, you know, we every-every Saturday, my father would go to city hall when he was mayor into work, and he would not be you know, disturbed by appointments and things like that. So, he would go into the office and there would not be any staff there. But my mother would stop and say you are not leaving me with all these kids. You have to take the boys. So, the boys would go to city hall with Dad in the old 1800 City Hall, fabulous place. 08:48 SM: He had 11. Yes, yeah. 09:47 JB: Anyway, so we would always like you know, just run wild through you know, city council chambers and, you know, press all the buttons and that led. 09:58 SM: Yeah. 09:59 JB: So Anyway, so one day says we are there on Saturday, I listen to boys. He says, I am making a very important phone call. And no one pick up the phone. No one start pressing these buttons. Very important call. So just you know, have fun, but do not do not play with the phone. So, anyways, he is calling the residents of Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, wants to talk to him. And so, he calls and Butler, somebody answers the phone, he says, "I would like to speak to, this is Mayor John Burns of Binghamton." And so, you know, he says "hold on please" so he goes to go see Robert Kennedy, and all the sudden he hears a click on the phone. He goes, "who is that?" He goes, "Joey, is that you?" And Joey says, he says, "what?" Says, "get off this phone, you dirty rat." Joe, and Joe Kennedy says, "what?" He goes, "is this Joey Burns?" He goes, "no, this is Joe Kennedy." He goes, "Oh, I am sorry, auuuugh." 11:17 SM: [laughs] What a story! 11:18 JB: [Inaudible] Kennedy [inaudible]. So anyway, he told that quite a few times. But anyway, you know, they became good friends, they would be, you know, on the campaign trail. And, you know, he would be you know, dealing with, you know, that I do not know, if it was the Presidential- probably further down the road, you know, you know, they are, you know, you would be in the hotel room with Kennedy be in the next room taking a shower, they would be yelling back and forth about what they are doing, what is next. Anyway, so Kennedy was, and so he is, at that point, the highest elected Democratic official in New York State, because there was [inaudible] other statewide candidate or statewide officer who was left [inaudible]. He was a controller. And then you had, you know, the Republican, you know, [inaudible] Wilson, you had, Senator, I do not know why I cannot think of who the other one was but–– 12:29 SM: Was it Keating? 12:30 JB: Keating I think is the seat that was open for Kennedy. 12:33 SM: Oh okay. Very good. 12:34 JB: Yeah. And, and the other one was, I just do not remember, sorry. So-so anyway. So, Kennedy wins. Everybody is really excited. He takes over the Democratic Party. And he picks and chooses just like the governor does now who is going to be the state chairman and you know all that stuff. And so, so they generally would pick a guy from upstate New York, because it kind of ties the party together, because there is such a dichotomy between the needs, and the interests of upstate New York versus the, you know, New York City area. So-so anyways, I do not know if that [inaudible], but there is different ventures. So-so John Burns is Kennedy's choice, he becomes the democratic state chairman. And that changes our lives in Binghamton because he retires as mayor, you know he gives up his mayoral seat. And then they-they, they did not elect, they just voted an appointment for a year. They appointed my Uncle Bill Burns, which Bill looks like a little nepotism there, but I do not know. Anyway. So-so turns out that Kennedy-Kennedy, becomes the state chair- or John Burns becomes a state chairman and he now, or even before that was wearing his PT-109 [inaudible] And I do not know, did you ever hear about that? 14:18 SM: No, I did not hear about that. 14:22 JB: That was the sign that you were part of the Kennedy organization, is if you had a PT-109 plug on your side. 14:32 SM: Right, because of Jack, yeah. 14:35 JB: They came from-from the President Kennedy's election, but you know, they carried over. I just gave mine to my brother Joe. So anyway, I found one in New York in a Flea Market, a real one. It was like, "Oh my God, this guy has no idea what I have got in my hand," you know. So, anyway- 15:03 SM: What happened to your dad's? What happened to your dad's? 15:07 JB: One of my brothers probably stole it. I think that he has it, but when my parents died, it was like, you know a free for all. You know, I plan on taking this and I will walk into an apartment, you know, or at someone's house or my sister's houses and I will see like, some, you know, painting that they cherished, you know, that they get, I was the executor of the estate, what was she doing with painting on the wall. 15:41 SM: I was I was in your mom and dad's apartment when I interviewed them. 15:47 JB: Yeah, yeah. So those are the pictures. Yeah, but they all abscond. Anyway, let us see. So- so-so yeah, so dad, you know, he explained to us about PT-109 boat. But so, he, you know, developed, his world changed. You know, he went from a little guy in Binghamton, New York to the Democratic state general with a with a hotel suite upstairs in the Dryden East Hotel. Down in the basement was the offices that democratic state committee and the democratic state committee had a, or the-the Democratic Chairman, there were different rules back then. And there was a different power structure back then. And a lot of that was rectified. But came up when, you know, McCarthy was running for president and then McGovern's people came the next time, and they changed the rules of the state of national convention, the chairman had the lion's share of the, of the delegate assignments, you know, they had, they only elected, you know, it was it was more of a, you know, it was not a majority of the, of the delegates elected, you know, in the local elections, the chairman would hand out these things. So, that being said, you know, like the McCarthys and Humphreys, and these guys, you know, they came calling because after Kennedy died, you know, they want they knew, who had all the delegates, it was the chairman. McCarthy did a great job of getting people elected and their mailing, you know, we had to jump them way ahead, but. 17:58 SM: Right. 17:59 JB: You know, their mailing of letters, you know, requesting the state chairman to support McCarthy, even before, even before Kennedy died. But once he died, you know, we in my house we would receive, you know, hip height, bundles of letters from everywhere. And, you know, all, you know, reaching out, and requesting that, John Burns support McCarthy, I will get back to that. So, alright, so, so now, Kennedy, Kennedy is the United States Senator. And he is very popular as far as, as far as our lives are, we loved the guy. And we were like all, we were all, you know, really paying attention to politics. And really, you know, in it, you know. Of course, you know, my father would come home on weekends and he would be in New York most of the week, but he did have offices here, the old [inaudible] at 50 Front street, now there is a new apartment building down there. That was where the offices were for Binghamton, for the state chairman. And then and then we our lives changed in that you know, we were, we would be in New York a lot. We would go to a lot of the big dinners and, and, you know, and it was, it was a lot of notoriety of, you know, this Irish guy Burns with his 12 kids, you know. And when we were when he was campaigning for lieutenant governor, prior to Kennedy's, Kennedy's, in fact, that was before (19)6- there must have been (19)62 I think, because that was before President Kennedy died. We have, here is an interesting note. When Morgenthau Burns ticket was running, and they were running as Rockstar, during that time, was the was the Russian missile crisis. You know- 20:20 SM: [Inaudible] yes. 20:20 JB: –Jeff Kennedy thing, you know, Cuban Mission, Cuban Missile Crisis. And-and during that time, it was in the fall or in the summer, and they were campaigning Burns, and Morgenthau and Burns were campaigning. And this is this is, we have a picture of the president, Robert Morgenthau and, and John Burns. 20:46 SM: Wow. 20:47 JB: And that picture, like it is a, it is a palm card. You know, I have it. In fact, I will send you a picture of it. 20:55 SM: Yes. 20:55 JB: So, understand, at that time, when they were in this motorcade, and they were in New York, and they were campaigning with the president United States. If you have watched the movie 13 days [crosstalk] 21:14 SM: Yes, I saw it, yes, I did. 21:16 JB: During that movie, there was a point where there was the big showdown, and his advisors in the White House that look, you got to go out, you know, people need to see you. You got to go out and act normal and be seen and give confidence and stuff, right. So that is where he went. In that picture of Morgenthau, Kennedy Morgenthau and Burns, was during the Cuban Missile Crisis. 21:47 SM: Oh my gosh. 21:49 JB: Yeah, yep. That is a fact. And then, so I had this, I used to have this picture of it with these captions. And [inaudible] but captured over-over Morgenthau says, "We are going to get our ass kicked." And then over Burns it said, "What am I doing here?" And then under- over Kennedy, it said, "We are all going to die." 22:18 SM: [laughs] Well that is not funny, but you know. 22:20 JB: Yeah, right. So anyway, so-so the, so that that was an interesting point in time. 22:30 SM: How did- 22:34 JB: Then I was gone for I went to Ireland with my brother Patrick. We went to Newbridge College. The county [inaudible] there is a boys boarding school of Dominican monks. My father was, became friendly with Paul O'Dwyer and a couple of these Irish born fellows that the guy that owned all the Blarney stones. You know, Paul O'Dwyer? 23:01 SM: Oh, yes, I do. Yeah, that white hair. Yeah. That white hair and- 23:05 JB: Yeah. 23:05 SM: Yep. 23:06 JB: Yeah. Those-those eyebrows. 23:07 SM: Yes. 23:08 JB: Those white eyebrows. 23:08 SM: Yes. 23:10 JB: Yeah. His brother was the president city council in New York too. So anyway, and Paul O'Dwyer, Paul O'Dwyer defended the Ayatollah Khomeini. Everybody deserves to have a lawyer. 23:22 SM: My God, I did not know that either. Wow! 23:26 JB: Yeah, he represented Khomeini. But anyway, he also ran for Senate you know after Kennedy was done. Anyway, so where are we so it is the (19)60s. The President has gone. And Senator Robert F. Kennedy and then, then the Presidential thing starts going, you know, like, the Johnson, he is running for reelection, gets, he gets reelected, did not he? 24:06 SM: Yes, he did, he got- 24:07 JB: Oh, no, he gets elected. 24:08 SM: He got elec- Johnson got, in (19)64 he won big and then he withdrew before the next one. 24:16 JB: Yes, yes. And when he withdrew, you know, they were campaigning, and Dad was, you know, like, winning against [inaudible]. When Kennedy announced for that he was going to run against a sitting Democratic president as the United States senator, and that United States senator, that was a powerful-powerful thing. And, and, you know, most political people in the country, you know, thought this guy was just committing political suicide here. He was running against a sitting president, Democrat, and they did not think they would do that well. I-I think, I do not know, you might know better than me. But so, when he announced, he had to show strength, he had to show where there was support and things like that. And the first place he went after announcing was to a testimonial dinner for John Burns and banks in New York. 25:24 SM: I did not know that either. 25:25 JB: It was Binghamton. 25:26 SM: Oh, wow. 25:28 JB: He came to Binghamton. And because you know it, first, you got to show that your-your Democratic Chairman in the state, you are from is for you, and that he is showing up with people that are Kennedy people, you know, there was plenty of people that were not Kennedy people in this state. But-but, you know, they, you know, they knew how to, you know, build momentum, and you know, how to show support. 25:55 SM: Was there any pressure with- 25:57 JB: Dinner for Dad, and then they had a dinner for Kennedy here. But I think it was. I do not know what the data that was, but I have the programs for both. 26:09 SM: Oh, my gosh. 26:10 JB: And let us see. So-so Kennedy started campaigning, and going around the country and doing his thing. And it was, you know, it was tough. McCarthy was running against them. Or no. He-he challenged McCarthy. 26:30 SM: Yeah. 26:31 JB: That would be- yeah. 26:33 SM: I interviewed Senator McCarthy, my very first person I interviewed back in (19)96. 26:38 JB: Wow. 26:39 SM: And when I asked the question about Bobby, you could see he was still upset even though Bobby is long gone. And, and he said, he said, "Read it in my book." Because– 26:53 JB: Oh, wow. 26:53 SM: –McCarthy had written. Yeah, I know, there was some there was some tension going on. And also, at the (19)68 convention after Bobby had been killed. And I got questions I want to ask you about LA and all the other things. But McCarthy disappeared at that, at that convention. I mean, he-he just like, why did, he just everything, when Bobby died, it seemed like he died. I mean, it was just like, I could not understand it. 27:20 JB: Well, he was still around. I mean, he was still running, in fact my father told me when we were getting all those letters and all that thing that I was like, asking my dad about like, "What about this, what about that?" And he said- you know, I might have a video of me asking him this stuff. But anyway, he said that. He said, he says, you know, he said, "I wanted to support McCarthy. You know, like what he represented, and his, you know, level of integrity, you know, to do what he was doing and everything" he says, "I wanted nothing more than to support Joe McCarthy. He said, you know, he says he was being solicited by, you know Hubert Humphrey was like, hot on the trail. They meet in restaurants and help you make a big deal and chairman and blah, blah, blah. But anyway. So, he said that McCarthy came to his office, and they sat down. And he said that, you know, the guy just did not light a fire. He was very, you know, kind of like a professor. 28:38 SM: Yes. 28:39 JB: We really liked your support. And he was not like a, you know, you know, he just lost Bobby Kennedy. Kennedy had a fire in his belly. And, you know, he was ready to go, you know. 28:52 SM: Right. 28:52 JB: And he just, you know, was not exciting. He thought, you know, he says "I got a lot, I had a lot of on the line at that point, and if I backed the guy that you know, was going to lose and just did not have any excitement to him," he said, you know, "I want to get first as well." And so anyway, he said he wanted his support but he said and, and he, John Burns, you know, they got assigned all these Kennedy chair- all these Kennedy delegates. A lot of them were elected, and a lot of them got appointed, and all that. And then, of course, the McCarthyites, you know, are worse, you know, they are at the other end of this left spectrum you know. And kind of like these days, you know, and so, you know, they are all willing to go, you know, like commit suicide, you know, harry carry over, you know, I always say that any candidate that can-can get enough con- political contributions to get elected president, I would not vote for. You know what I mean? I do not mean that. But I make it as, you know, a joke. Like, you know, anybody that did not raise enough money to get elected I would support, you know, it is like, gradual marketing, where you have me as member of their club I would not join. But anyway, so, where are we? So. 30:39 SM: To Bobby's running. 30:40 JB: [Inaudible] talking about, you know, running for president, he declares his candidacy. Everybody is just very excited. You know like, who is going to be next with the Burns family, I mean you know. That would have been really good for us on a political level, you know, maybe Washington or maybe Irish Ambassador or [crosstalk]. And when I was this, this is kind of an interesting little sidebar, when I was a student at Newbridge College in a secondary school, you know, it was high school in Ireland. My father came to visit. And Aer Lingus has got word of it. And at that time, Pan Am was trying to get into Ireland, be able to fly into Ireland. And I think that the Irish were resisting it or something. I do not know the exact, you know, stuff what was going on, but, but I know Aer Lingus is wanting to cozy up to Burns because they think he had some kind of power. You know, it was a national thing that the United States Senate would vote on. So anyway, Kennedy's support. So, when he came over to visit at Easter time that he like, you know, they had him on the front page of Irish Independent or, you know, the government paper. And you know, him holding us some shamrocks and his hand, somebody greeting them from either Aer Lingus or whatever. And then we went to Phoenix Park is where the, I think Ambassador lived. And we went to an event there and then the Secretary of the Interior, whatever his title is in Ireland, they brought him to dinner and they were really floozing him. We traveled around the country. We went to a hotel, they would have, we would walk into the lobby of a hotel, they have all these flowers, champagne bottles, or champagne. Big deal. So, my father is trying to tell him "okay," you know, "I do not really, you know, I do not really have any say in this matter." But, uh, you know, I mean, truth be said, I mean, he probably did have some influence on it. And he probably, you know, would have, you know, Kennedy smile or something, you know what I mean, but I do not think would have had any real effect changing some national law. 33:37 SM: How long were you? 33:38 JB: But anyway. 33:38 SM: How long were you a student over there? How many years? 33:41 JB: I only stayed, I only stayed a year. My brother Pat- I did not want to go back because I was I was too homesick. I was like 14 years old. And but my brother Patrick, two years older than I, went back another year and graduated from the school. And, and that was why well, that was why it was a funeral in the wake. Patrick was not there because he was in Ireland. 34:07 SM: Right. You duck talking about the- could you talk about that a little more about that year (19)68. Your dad was obviously, you know, vowed with, that whole year and then put it put prospectively your dad's thoughts on that year, and of course, Bobby's death and everything. 34:32 JB: Yeah. So, Bobby Kennedy died on June 6th. And so, when he died, you know, that just took the wind out of ourselves. I mean, everybody was crushed. And you know, what do you do, where do you go? You know, who is going to do what. And, and so, so let us see. So, I mean, you know, a lot of things were already scheduled set up, you know, Democratic Convention, all that stuff. And the delegates, you know, the primaries where they elect delegates. And so, so a lot of things were already done, Kennedy died. And they have to do the funeral, the wake and the funeral in New York. So anyway, we go to the we go to the event, we go to the wake. My father has gone, you know, in meetings most of the time, but, you know, we still had dinner and such. So, so we go to the wake, couple of my brothers, and a fella that was one of my close friends growing up. He was, he was like an adopted member of the family because his house was so far away from school and we lived right down the street. So, he lived in the third floor with us most of the time. And, Matt Ryan is his name, he later became the mayor of Binghamton. Anyway, so, so there was this moment, the way you know, we were, you know, then just thousands and thousands of people are coming in. And so, but they would switch out what did they call it? Ushers, now. We were not ushers, we were, you know, we would stand at the, at the casket. We were- now I cannot think of the term. 36:58 SM: Pallbearers? 37:00 JB: No, not pallbearers. We were guards, we were you know, well it will come to me in a second. So-so we stood, you know, and we stood I think it was like 15 minutes or 20 minutes or something after at the casket. And pall- not pallbearers, shit, what is it? Anyway, so we stood there for a while. And, and, you know, people would come, you know, we would be standing back from the casket or by, you know, a couple of feet there. Then, you know, people would walk to the casket and keep, you know, maybe touch the casket or something, walk by. And so, while we were there, Mrs. Martin Luther King, and her entourage, like Abernathy, you know, whoever else? 38:03 SM: Andrew Young? 38:04 JB: But, uh. 38:04 SM: Yeah. 38:05 JB: What is that? 38:06 SM: Andrew Young, was he part of? 38:08 JB: Yeah, I mean I am sure [inaudible] Andrew Young. But anyway, they came in and walked past us, you know, and that was another significant kind of poignant moment. That, you know, these are my, these are my- I do not know. So anyways, so they come by, and the last time that she had seen Bobby Kennedy, was Bobby Kennedy went to see her immediately, you know, after her husband was assassinated. 38:44 SM: Yes-yes. 38:46 JB: And, and so now she was standing there, you know, with his dead body. And yeah, it was just unbelievable. What was going on then, you know. And I call it my Forrest Gump moments. Because you are like [inaudible]. 39:08 SM: Yes, you are right. 39:09 JB: So, I was, you know, I was, I was at these-these places, you know, like, it is like, wow. So, anyway, you know, we were there for that. And then the next day was the funeral. And I went, got a ticket for the funeral. I still have this ticket. And there is a stamp on it. That said train. And, and that was my pass onto the funeral train. I was on the train from New York to Washington where all the thousands and thousands of people were there, you know, and another Forrest Gump moment. And- 39:48 SM: Now it is not just you and your dad or was it other members of your family? 39:52 JB: I think [sighs] I think it was me I think it was me. And they put me in the, you know, the news car, you know, reporters and typers, all that stuff. And then, my mom and dad were up front in another car. 40:18 SM: Right. 40:21 JB: Anyway, on that, you know on that train ride Ethel Kennedy and her son, I think it was Joe. They came through, thanked everybody for coming in. That is right, I thought. And I had actually met them before, at their house, McLean. But you know, people they do not really there is so many people that they meet, you cannot expect they know. So anyway, I was on the train, and then I caught up with my parents when [inaudible] when we got there, and we went to the burial. And it was significant. He was a significant guy, you know, just an amazing guy [crosstalk]. 41:15 SM: Now I want to ask you, how old were you when the funeral was happening? 41:20 JB: 17. 41:21 SM: What- you were a 17-year-old, you know, you got a- 41:25 JB: What year is this, (19)56, right? 41:27 SM: No, it was (19)68. (19)68, and I was born in (19)51. Yep, so I am always amazed. What- you, I can imagine what is going through your dad being a close friend of his, but you are the son. I mean, what can you reflect upon what you are going through mentally? You know, you are a 17-year-old person and you are looking up to a pound- you got dad who you are very proud of, and you have got a person that he works with and for, who he is very, you are very proud of, and then all of a sudden, he is gone. 42:05 JB: Yeah, it was, it was horrible. You know, that night that day. You know, the, you know, we were also you know, we were glued to the TV sets when-when the for the for the Oregon- is it the Oregon primary? 42:30 SM: Yeah, the Oregon- 42:30 JB: Then they came down to Cal- no, they were going to Oregon next, I think. He won California, right? 42:37 SM: Yes, he did. 42:39 JB: Yeah, he won California then the next primary, which he was on his way to having enough delegates, you know, he had a major shot there. I do not think anybody was going to stop him then. You know, so our, our segment, it was not just, you know, benefiting, you know, financially or anything else, the Burns family. It was the, the political ideals and the leadership of-of, of this guy. 43:23 SM: Yeah. 43:23 JB: But, you know, that was, you know, that was, you know, it was so dynamic and, you know, we were all, you know, [crosstalk] wrapped up in it. You know, we were, we believe we were believers, you know what I mean? 43:41 SM: Well– 43:41 JB: We believed in America, and helping and helping people, integration issues, you know, the things that he worked on, and he believed and the Viet- I mean the Vietnam War, we were all, you know, we were all you know, on board with, you know, with all of those things. And, you know, we were the young ones really, you know we were 17, younger. 44:14 SM: Were you in Los Angeles, were you and your dad in Los Angeles? 44:18 JB: Now we were on, we were at 123 Leroy Street, watching the TV. And then I went to bed. And Matt Ryan was watching TV down in the living room with somebody, couple of the kids. And then he got shot, and Matt woke me up and told me, and then we went to [inaudible] watch TV and it was, he was gone. Bam-bam, bam. 44:44 SM: You know, it was really, you probably know when Bobby attended the funeral for, at Ebenezer Baptist Church. He was sitting on the left side of the church and he was made the front cover of a magazine because the sun was coming through the side window. And that was focusing on him. And that was during the funeral of Dr. King– 45:05 JB: Wow. 45:05 SM: -and he had tears in his eyes to during that, in that picture and, and one of the things that, and I like your comment on this, earlier in Bobby's career, he was considered a pretty tough cookie, you know, he was with his brother on those, those committees against some of those, I guess they are [crosstalk] those guys and so, but then all of a sudden we see in (19)66, (19)65. And when he became senator, this kind of an evolution of a really compassionate person who deeply cared about people who were, you know, especially going down south and all the other things. And so, he-he kind of evolved, you know, into someone that everybody really liked. So that is another thing too. So. 46:00 JB: I got a letter from him. I am sure. I am sure he signed it, but I doubt very much that he wrote it. But I got a letter, I was coming out of the classroom in Ireland, we were coming out of lunch, and I was walking across the courtyard, you know, one day we got in the mail, you know, the envelope says "United States Senate." And so, I open it up, and it is a personal letter from-from Senator Kennedy. 46:29 SM: Oh, wow. 46:30 JB: Yeah, it said, it said, I will tell you exactly what it said. You have to give me a second. Ah, it is someplace in the house, 46:52 SM: Okay. [crosstalk] All right. 46:53 JB: But anyways, it says that, you know, that your dad says, that you are in school in Ireland, and blah-blah, blah. And, you know, working hard, it was an encouragement letter because I was complaining about being there, and I did not want to be there anymore [laughs]. So, he says, "Ahhh" and he sends me a letter from Senator Kennedy. So [inaudible] I mean, Kennedy was like, you know, like, you would see a picture of Jesus on one wall in Ireland and a picture of President Kennedy and the other. 47:32 SM: Yes, yes, definitely. 47:34 JB: But anyway, so yeah, that is in my office. But anyway, so-so, I got this, I am walking across the courtyard. And one kid looked at it, and he goes, "That is not real signature. [Inaudible] senator drop of rain." But gets the signature and smeared the ink. Just the slightest bit and I go, "Ah, it is a real signature." And anyway, so where were we, we were talking about something. 48:10 SM: Yeah, I want to ask you what-what when you were in school here back in the Binghamton area and not over in Ireland, and you were the son of the mayor of, mayor of Binghamton, and then you were the son of the person who is kind of the chair of the upstate Democratic Party and then you were friends with Bobby did that, did that put pressure on you at school? When-when people, "Oh you think you are a big shot or." 48:37 JB: Oh [crosstalk] 48:37 SM: I was curious, what how did it affect you? 48:41 JB: Yeah, people well you know, there is always going to be a percentage of people in life that if you have any level of success or notoriety they are not going to like it. 48:56 SM: Right. 48:57 JB: And then there is the Republican Party you know what I mean, so you know they you know. There was a lot of Repub- there was two to one Republican when he was first elected, I mean it is a Democratic city now but- 49:10 SM: Right. 49:10 JB: -but they would always be, you know, kind of naysayer’s type of thing. And let me make sure, can I take a break here for a second? x49:31 SM: Yes. 49:31 JB: I have to use the restroom really quick, hold on. 49:33 SM: Yep-yep. 49:34 JB: I am going to put you on mute. 49:35 SM: Yep, very good. [audio cuts] Yep, we are on. We are on. 49:44 JB: Okay, so anyway, shit you were back at... Oh, yeah, you were asking me about you know, how to people treat you and stuff like that. 49:55 SM: Right. 49:56 JB: You know, in Binghamton, a lot of people, you know, my age, you know, they were not, they did not have a level of political awareness, like we did. You know, because we were, you know, we were surrounded by it. You know, there would be an article once in a while about the Burns kids or something, you know, because that was kind of like a notoriety, you know, of having, you know, being the mayor and having 12 kids, you know, it was the 12 kids’ thing. But, you know, there was always some, you know, embarrassing moment or somebody you know, got in trouble or something it was like, you know, you were like, defending, or, you know, stopping, it was a lot of people. 50:51 SM: Right. [crosstalk] Go ahead. 50:57 JB: No, go ahead. 50:58 SM: I was going to ask a question, and before we get into some other questions, you know. Bobby's death and Dr. King's death and Jack's death and the constant impact and, you know, shock-shock, shock-shock, which shocked so many Americans in the (19)60s, this is like the (19)60s and (19)68, in particular were the, what happened at the Democratic Convention. It– 51:21 JB: Oh yeah. 51:22 SM: Yeah, it is, um, I guess- 51:24 JB: I was at, I was at the convention too. 51:27 SM: Yeah, what did you think of that convention? 51:31 JB: Well, I mean, that was one of the best night ever spent. So-so there was the, you know, the Kennedy camp and the McCarthy camp, and the Hubert Humphrey camp kind of thing. You know, Burns was trying to deliver the, you know, the Kennedy stuff to Humphrey I think. And, you know, so there was, it was it was the Democratic Party in New York. I mean, they were all at each other's throats all the time and it was. 52:13 SM: Yeah, well, that connect convention with all the protests going on outside. 52:18 JB: Yeah. 52:18 SM: Yeah. And the– 52:19 JB: Yeah, they sent me they sent me to go get some credentials, because that was the first year it was ever real security, you know, you had to have, you know, this thing around your neck, a plastic encased. But it still did not have a picture ID, it was just, you know. It was like a pass to get in. I do not think it had a picture ID because I was using other people's stuff, and they were letting me in, you know. 52:52 SM: Well that convention with what was going on outside and they arrested some of the reporters inside. I think it was Dan- I think Dan Rather got arrested. I think it was John Chancellor got arrested. 53:04 JB: I was watching. I was up in the you know, alternate stand there. And I was watching Dan Rather, you know, fighting with these guys when he got arrested. 53:17 SM: Well, I think– 53:17 JB: And there was a guy I gave my seat to from Georgia, Julian Bond. 53:28 SM: Oh, yeah. 53:29 JB: I mean that was the- that was when Julian Bond became a national figure. That convention. 53:37 SM: [Inaudible]? 53:38 JB: I mean, as far as I never heard of him before, and all of a sudden, I see him a lot after that. 53:43 SM: Why-why would what why did Julian become a national figure from that convention? 53:48 JB: I am not sure. I think that he spoke. I think he gave a speech. I think he was I do not know if he was a congressional representative. But he was definitely a spokesperson for the you know, for the Black movement, the country. And but he was an elected official have some sort, I just do not remember. [crosstalk] Yeah, he is a cool guy, you know. Good speaker, have a good kind of presence, you know, very staid. 54:29 SM: Yes. 54:29 JB: Yes, you know. 54:31 SM: I interviewed him. 54:34 JB: Oh, did you? 54:34 SM: Yeah, I interviewed him down in America, American University. Before he asked me to go into his class to speak on oral history interviewing [laughs]. So no kidding, no kidding. And then Julian came, I brought him to West Chester University to speak. And, of course, he passed away pretty fast a couple of years back. Finally, we get we were able to get the tape sent to him, sent to his wife for the final okay. Well, one thing I want to ask you because you were a 17-year-old and I was I am was a 21-year-old, I think at that particular time. And I would be curious, you know, I asked this question to your father too, I believe is that the whole issue of elected leaders and trust in elected leaders and during the (19)60s too because of the Vietnam War, and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution which a lot of people thought it was really a farce. It was just a way to get involved in the Vietnam conflict. And so people started to have a lack of trust in some of the leaders because they felt leaders were lying to them. And then we have the deaths of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy and-and then what we saw the Democratic Convention, which is and you are a 17-year-old, and you have got other brothers and sisters that are probably what, they are seeing all this stuff and-and of course your father's probably even though he is very involved in politics is wondering probably how it is affecting the kids. His kids, I just want to know, did you start not having trust in the elected leaders or were you part of that or because you have your father, you always continued to have trust in elected leaders? 56:18 JB: Well, I-I continue to an interest in politics but you know. But there was nobody taking the place of Bobby Kennedy you know what I mean, there was no, like Hubert Humphrey. He was not ringing anybody's bell, you know. And you know, who's next and obviously [inaudible] Republican. And then we started you know, I was coming of an age where I was studying and keeping my eye on like, you know, what is this you know, like if you look at, if you look at a pattern of organized, for organized [inaudible] you know, to ruin the image of someone to take the part of, Republicans are, you know, what came next? Okay. You had like Nixon, McGovern and all, let us see. So. 57:44 SM: Yeah Nixon and then you- 57:45 JB: So, Humphrey lost, Humphrey lost, and then who won? Nixon. 57:51 SM: Yeah. Nixon and Ford and Ford took over after-after Watergate, during Watergate. 58:00 JB: Yeah, Ford and then, but the next president, the next Democratic president was Carter. 58:07 SM: Yes. 58:08 JB: Was it? 58:08 SM: Yes it was. 58:09 JB: And then Carter, like I never noticed it when there was a Republican President, that there was a, you know, a chorus, an organized effort to-to, you know, to- trying to think of the word- but, you know, to, I never noticed that the Democrats do it to the Republicans. And then but then Carter became president, then they did everything they could possibly do to discredit this guy. And maybe even I mean, if I am not mistaken, they even had the Ayatollah Khomeini or-or whoever it was release the hostages but hold off. 58:55 SM: Yes. 58:57 JB: Until Carter was out of office. 58:58 SM: Until Reagan came in, yeah. Until Ronald Reagan came in. That was [crosstalk]. Yeah, I agree. 59:06 JB: [Inaudible] patriotic. 59:08 SM: Yeah, well after the death of Bobby, did your dad ever sit down with the family and talk? Just amongst the family? 59:18 JB: He would talk, yeah. Yeah, he would talk. 59:22 SM: Yeah cause I, you know, sometimes the father's magic moment is when he can get all the kids together after a tragedy and, and see how they are doing, how they are feeling, you know, their thoughts and certainly the thoughts of their father. 59:36 JB: Yeah, and it was more of a with, you know, as a father, he was more of an individual or just a few people at a time guy, okay. He might, you might be with the girls, you know, like, three other girls or five, you know, maybe all five of them. Or it would be me and Patrick and Joe or, you know different, different groups and he would, you know, or we would ride in New York with him, you know. And then, you know, going to New York, he had lots of time to talk to you, tell you what he thought. 1:00:14 SM: Did the Burns family stay, continue to stay in touch with the Kennedy fam- family after Bobby was buried? 1:00:23 JB: With, yeah, I mean, we did not as kids. I mean, I, you know, I had Bobby Jr. when I was County Chairman here, two very chaotic years. He spoke in an event that we had, we asked him to speak, and he did. And, and, but, you know, that was the only, my only real and why I cannot really think of it but. But, um, but Teddy Kennedy was, Teddy Kennedy would communicate with my father all the time. My father was, you know, he was on a couple of boards first, and, you know, Robert F. Kennedy foundations or something. 1:01:10 SM: Right. 1:01:11 JB: And they talked with Ethel, you know, Ethel and [inaudible] and he was like, you know, it was still part of the gang, you know. 1:01:22 SM: Is your becom- 1:01:22 JB: But, um. 1:01:23 SM: -is your becoming a leader in the area of real estate, and is there a, is there somehow a link between what you are doing now and what and, you know, what, what transpired in the (19)60s and (19)70s, you went into politics, obviously. But, you– 1:01:43 JB: Well, I did not really, I- when I came back from Florida, I had moved to, well I was kind of associated in politics a little bit, but I got in the restaurant business. I started, you know, working in restaurants, in the (19)70s. And then, my father, my father had become commissioner of water supply in New York. He was, he helped John Lindsay when Lindsay became a Democrat. And there is a picture in the New York Times my father handing his [inaudible] like a little clip that you put on your lapel or something, right, like a donkey, you know. [Inaudible] but Lindsay was still mayor at the time. And then Lindsey ran for president. And they, you know, my dad was a political adviser to him and that presidential campaign. And so, you know, it did not, you know, did not get any traction, he bowed out. And at that point, Lindsay appointed my father, commissioner of water supply of New York. And, and then he was the last commissioner of water supply in New York, because if you do not know, it is like a patronage to [inaudible] campaign. You know, he, he had an- a nice office someplace that did him like 30,000 a year. So, it was just kind of a supplemental, supplemental [inaudible] thing. And then he got a car and a chauffeur. Anyway, Governor Kerry eliminated that position when, you know that it was in the works. They eliminated the position. And the next day he appointed my father, as his upstate reelection campaign manager. 1:03:54 SM: Wow. 1:03:55 JB: Or campaign manager, I do not know which I do not know. But, so after the election, because, you know, he was he was not very liked upstate. So, you know, you got to get some support. So, anyway, so after he was reelected, he appointed my father. The appointments officer to the governor, he appointed all-all [inaudible] all state jobs, went to him. So, you know, so he just became, you know, like a guy on the second floor, of the capitol and the governor's, you know, floor, and you know, had a big staff and all kinds of interaction with everybody. And at that time, I left "What is Your Beef" in Binghamton and I opened up a restaurant in Albany, called "Downtown Johnny's." It was a block down the street from-from the governor's mansion, the cathedral and next to that is the governor's mansion. So, you know, they all used to come down. And when he had come into town, he had come to my place because that was where his kids were. And the Senate, the, you know, the, the assembly, you know, they all hung out there all the time. When, when his announcement came out for, you know, marrying this woman from Chicago, this Greek woman, the first place he came with his entourage was Downtown Johnny's. 1:05:35 SM: Wow. 1:05:36 JB: Like I was on the front page of The New York Times, Daily News, the post, there is an article about Downtown Johnny's and it was great. [Inaudible] 1:05:47 SM: Is that restaurant still there? 1:05:50 JB: Well, it is a different name now. 1:05:52 SM: Okay. 1:05:55 JB: I lasted a few years, and then I got out. And so anyways, that was a really exciting time. And I got to know you know, a lot of people back then, you know, a lot of people. And all those guys, all the underlings. You know, the governor’s aides and people like that, they are all the, they are all the leaders now. You know, the big shots, it is funny to watch. You know, I go back there once in a while. I go, "Wow, man, you are a judge," you know, "I used to smoke pot with you." 1:06:32 SM: [laughs] There is two things in connection with Bobby's funeral again, or is I would like you, I know you are on the train. And you know, there is the on YouTube, they show the train. And the and all the people along the railroad stops and everything. You were seeing these people when you were seeing all colors, all backgrounds. 1:06:54 JB: Thousands. 1:06:54 SM: Thousands. What, what did that say about America? And what does that say about Bobby? 1:07:03 JB: Yeah, and what did it say about Blacks? Because there was predominantly Black people, were at those train tracks, I thought. You know, I watched that video, I do not I do not see that. But my, my it was hitting me when I was watching it, wow. But-but it was everybody, of they were all there. 1:07:28 SM: It when you, when you think of that speech that Bobby gave the night that Dr. King died, I think it is one of the greatest speeches in history of, I have studied speech. That was off the cuff. 1:07:43 JB: Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was brilliant. 1:07:46 SM: And he did not know and you know, people, there were protests and you know, people were tearing up cities and everything else and he did not know how in Indianapolis how people were going to react and boy. 1:07:57 JB: Right. 1:07:58 SM: Talk about the magic moment, oh my gosh. 1:08:01 JB: Yeah. Fearless and brilliant, you know. 1:08:04 SM: Yeah, it is just and I, I go to Arlington and we all see it, some of the words that he used at that event at, that are right below where the cross is. And it is just it is really passionate. And also, the Teddy's speech was very, I thought it was very well done too and. 1:08:25 JB: During the funeral, you mean? 1:08:27 SM: Yeah, that some men see things as they are and ask, "Why." Why, and Bobby sees things that never were and says, "Why not?" I thought, you know, and he used those words all the time. Bobby, Bobby did. 1:08:43 JB: Yeah. He was a he was a great one for quoting, you know, poetry or– 1:08:50 SM: Yep. 1:08:50 JB: Greek, an ancient Greek or, you know, he is just [inaudible] 1:08:58 SM: Oh yeah, a good right-hand man, for sure. I have some, I have some [crosstalk] I have some couple general questions just about the (19)60s. So, when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 1:09:17 JB: Really you know, just those days those days of turmoil, Vietnam and Vietnam, Bobby Kennedy, it was a big one was the Kent State. 1:09:37 SM: Killings. Yeah, (19)70. That leads right in here. Is there one particular event that stands out for you beyond Bobby's death? 1:09:57 JB: Politically? 1:09:58 SM: Yes, politically or tragedy or politically, socially. 1:10:11 JB: I do not know, I mean, we are just talking about so much I cannot, you know like what is popping into my head is like what we are talking. But, you know, I would say that I, not an event but an awakening or an awareness of how-how the world really works in in, you know how power, you know, goes in Washington and-and places. Like, well, what was really, what was Vietnam really about? What was, you know, what are the motivations of, you know, there is so much corruption and money-making schemes and laws that that benefit. I mean it has gotten so much worse now that, you know, I mean Donald Trump is president United States. And that alone is the craziest thing that, you know, he is out of his mind. 1:11:30 SM: I agree. 1:11:33 JB: All these money investments. You know, like Vietnam, and, and a lot of these other third world countries that we were theoretically trying to help, you know, we were, we were not really doing that, you know, we really had some other agenda, we were not trying to help the people of Vietnam. Just a second [coughs]. I do not think and if you look at there is a book, it is a real simple little book, but it is written by a guy that used to be, it is called The Confessions or The Diary or something of Economic Hit Man [Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins]. It is about United States going into third world countries, and lending them money and making them dependent on us. And you know, creating, creating business, for American businesses by you know, building a power plant, that it is really only going to benefit like the royal family of Timbuktu or something. And in the people, the indigenous people, wherever it is all displaced or sent into cities, they have no cultural, you know, understanding of any other. And it is all for, you know, some company in the United States that builds [inaudible] companies. 1:13:15 SM: Right. 1:13:16 JB: And they need electricity, I do not know, do they? You know. Anyways, I just do not know. You know, I just I just and now I am worried about the far left, you know, because they are uncompromising. They are never going to win. 1:13:40 SM: You mean Bernie Sanders and that group? 1:13:42 JB: Yeah, Bernie Sanders. And what is her name? The Bronx. 1:13:48 SM: Yeah, the four young women are in Congress now. [laughs] 1:13:52 JB: Yeah. And, you know, my sister is in Ithaca. I just see everybody, you know, like, it is, like, for example, George, George W. Bush would never have been elected president if it was not for the far left. Because they voted for what is his name that, you know the tall thin guy, what his name uh? 1:14:24 SM: I mean, you are talking about- 1:14:26 JB: Third party candidate in that presidential election. 1:14:28 SM: Yeah-yeah. The lawyer, Ralph Nader. 1:14:35 JB: Ralph Nader. 1:14:36 SM: You are right. 1:14:37 JB: Ralph Nader elected George Bush. 1:14:41 SM: Yep. 1:14:42 JB: He did not. They voted for him, the far left voted for him. And they said, "They are all just as bad as the other." No, they are not. And then that they voted against Hillary Clinton. Sorry. Hillary Clinton would have been a million times better Then Trump, or million times better than whoever the hell they want, I think. Because, she really, she understands policy, she understands negotiation. She knows how the world works. And you cannot be a person who, you know, you just cannot do it. It does not work. I am not a believer. You have to be able to negotiate. 1:15:23 SM: In your, in your, [crosstalk] in your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? 1:15:33 JB: I would say the (19)60s ended in (19)73. After McGovern left. 1:15:41 SM: Okay. 1:15:41 JB: That was it. And that is when they reformed the Democratic Party. MPs, you know, they did not have the chairman handing out the candy anymore, you know, they would have primaries where they could get elected delegates. And then and then that is when they, you know, they made it tougher to elect a Democrat, you know, to consolidate power into, you know, but it is interesting to see how the Democratic Party has evolved from the solid south. And those people finally woke up and realized they were Republicans. 1:15:45 SM: When did-? 1:15:51 JB: So, I say good riddance to them. We do not, we do not have that much in common with those people. 1:16:34 SM: That is true. 1:16:35 JB: They were Andrew Jackson Democrats. I did not know if Andrew Jackson was this Democrat. You know what I mean, like, Jackson was-was similar to Trump in a certain way. 1:16:47 SM: Yeah there is that historic story about when Dr. King was in jail. And-and I think it was Harris Wofford, and Bobby both went to President Kennedy to say, "You need to call down south and get him out of jail" or, you know, something like that. And I know that he, he was thinking about the Democrats, he was a pragmatic politician. That is what they always said about Jack Kennedy. And, and so the most powerful Democrats in Congress at that time were, you know, some of them was bigoted, you know, segregation and as and so it was that that was, so he had to be concerned about, you know, how they were going to react. Well, he did it. And of course, Dr.- Mrs. King just praised-praised him for doing it. And of course, Bobby and Harris were the two people that were the ones that, you know, encouraged him to do it. And it was the right thing to do to begin with. But if but that was a criticism of Jack Kennedy that sometimes he was too pragmatic in his decisions. He knew what was right. But he was too pragmatic, and it took him a little while longer, whereas with Bobby, it would not have taken him in two seconds. So when do you think- 1:18:01 JB: That is true. 1:18:02 SM: Yeah. When do you think the (19)60s began? 1:18:04 JB: I think they, oh, I mean, there was a few things leading up to John F. Kennedy, for example, John F. Kennedy. (19)60s. The [inaudible, starts singing] high hopes, so come on vote for Kennedy, vote for Kennedy and you will come out on top. [stops singing] Do you remember that song, they took the song from some Broadway show. 1:18:41 SM: Yeah. 1:18:42 JB: They made a Bobby Kennedy or a John F. Kennedy campaign song. 1:18:47 SM: Camelot. 1:18:49 JB: Yeah, [inaudible] 1:18:52 SM: I do not know. I am going to tell you, you can finish with someone who thinks the (19)60s began? 1:19:02 JB: So, you know, you know how the world was right after, right after World War Two, you know, in the (19)50s. You know, that was, you know, a boom time really, you know, like, you know, people there was only one income in the family, everybody, you know, there is a one, sometimes two cars, you know, there is a middle class, a real middle class. And it is, it is, I sat next to Senator Moynihan once at a dinner for my father in Binghamton. And, and it was right after Pataki won and beat Mario Cuomo running for what, a third or fourth term? 1:20:10 SM: Yes. 1:20:11 JB: And, well I like Mario Cuomo a lot. And so anyway, sitting next to me, we are talking about the history of the Democratic Party and stuff. He gave a little speech on that. And then he started talking about the, you know, like the, the demise of the small city, upstate New York Cities in you know, just in the Northeast United States, you know, these little small cities and what happened to them. And what happened in New York as far as, and he said, it was the dawn of the American highway system that set the stage for-for all this pilfering of other people's other people's businesses. You know, Delaware started going after, Delaware started going after New York City business companies, no factories and, and things like that. This is what I took from, I cannot remember any exact words. But when all that started, okay, and then there was this, this race to the bottom for-for the, well they were doing it with welfare to but-but for-for, you know, local companies, like, why did why did urban blight occur? Well, they started going, you know, a micro level, not the macro level of, you know, Texas just stole our, you know, Lockheed or something. But, at a micro level of, of like Joe Schmo was on the west side of Binghamton in a house that, you know, he likes house and it is a neighbor and everything else. So now that there is a route 80, 81 out to Kirkwood, he can build a house out in the suburbs, you know, on an acre lot or five-acre lot. And, and he can live out there and get the work on time in Binghamton. In fact, his work is not in Binghamton anymore, they moved it out as a route 17 exit number, whatever. And it is a new factory there. So, he hops in his pickup truck, drives down through Binghamton, stays on route 17 and gets to work in time. And he lives out in the suburbs. And now, those people that used to live in Binghamton on the west side, there is a vacancy in that house so somebody's going to buy it. So, the guy, you know, so, so there is, you know, shifting around. And so, the, the guy that would, could of used, you know, the guy that has a vacancy in his two family on Laurel Avenue in a nice neighborhood, you know, he now rents the house to the guy that used to live on the north side, he is now living in that apartment, and he is okay, but he is no great shakes. Got a job, you know. So, to now the house on the north side, the two family has a vacancy. And the only people that can move into that it is maybe somebody on welfare, you know what I mean? 1:22:47 SM: Wow. Right. 1:23:34 JB: He is not saying this, I am saying this. 1:23:36 SM: Right. 1:23:37 JB: So, what happens is, is that everybody shifts up into a different neighborhood, you know, the one that they want, American Dream kind of stuff. So that is okay, but the apart, but the apartment down on Liberty Street will remain vacant until a drug addict or somebody on welfare moves in there. And then it will become, you know, slowly, you know, mismanaged. 1:24:04 SM: Right. 1:24:05 JB: So, then you end up with a dumpy neighborhood. 1:24:07 SM: Wow. 1:24:08 JB: And that is, that is what happened. Yeah. And so then, that means they start taking the companies out of the cities. And so, the best and the brightest in those cities, like Binghamton, you know, all of a sudden IBM's gone. So, all the IBM workers move to North Carolina. And then, then all those houses are vacant. So, then the prices go down, because there is more supply than there is demand. You know, and then that impacts all the school systems, and it impacts everything. It was, it was the highways, and it was the it was the it was the taxes. You know, that what drew those companies out of those areas, is they were promised lower taxes, and they could beat the unions. They could say, "Look, you know, you do not have to [inaudible] just come down here, and hire these people" and some of them did but a lot of them did not. So it was kind of undermining the income of the American worker. 1:25:09 SM: Yes. 1:25:10 JB: You know, they would move to those areas, and go well it is warm in here, there is not [inaudible] though. Well, there better not be because you do not make enough money to pay it. 1:25:17 SM: [interjects] 1:25:19 JB: And so, I- huh? 1:25:21 SM: Continue. 1:25:23 JB: So, my opinion is that and you know, the Republicans started talking state rights when they, you know, are switching from Republican or Democrat to Republican, you know, that race is figured out that they were really Republicans. But the-the, as people lose, you know, lost their jobs, and they moved out of areas, it was all like tax incentives and all that stuff, those tax incentives lowered the income of workers, and they lowered the income, they had to get like a lot of companies to come, in order to be able to afford the deals they were making with these companies. So-so what happened was, there was this race to the bottom then, and then Cuomo will offer them a better deal, and they lowered their taxes. So now, big corporate America is no longer supporting the population and the infrastructure that they were using. You know, and it is the middle class who has been undermined in this income that is supporting the poor. 1:26:33 SM: Yeah. 1:26:34 JB: You know, and it is just crazy. You know, and then there is the internet, you know, they have like, taken the profit out of everything. And then who knows where that money is. 1:26:48 SM: I can see– 1:26:49 JB: Well. 1:26:49 SM: -yeah, you just gave a tremendous little presentation. And, you know, really, because you are talking about the Triple Cities here. But you are also talking about Cortland, New York where I grew up as a kid. Yeah, they took Brockway Truck out of there in in (19)59, I remember because we were moving, my dad got promoted. So we moved. But we were leaving Cortland. But at that particular time, Brockway took their truck company to Allentown or I do not know where it went. And then they there were some, IBM was out there and they were going to different locations and that city is really hurting and is still hurting. If it was not for the college, SUNY Cortland, they would really be hurting because right now they just shut down one of their three schools, Elton B. Parker Elementary School has just been shut down, which was a major Elementary School at that particular time. I got a few more questions, and then we will end it. It has been said that what made the (19)60s in part was the spirit of the times. How would you define the spirit of those times? 1:27:02 JB: Yeah. Optimistic. The Age of Aquarius, you know, it was a new world, it was, it was going to be great. You know, we were all you know, Woodstock and good reefer. [laughter] You know, by the way, I do not drink, I have not drunk- this is my 32nd year, this month is my anniversary month for not consuming drugs or alcohol. So. 1:28:27 SM: Congratulations. 1:28:28 JB: Do not get the wrong idea. 1:28:29 SM: I would give you a high five if you were here. 1:28:34 JB: So, but I think that it was a, it was an optimism. You know, there was a, it was a, there was a time where it will, you know, I mean we, you know, we could not really feel the impact of anything, you know, below the surface that was happening in the (19)60s, like, you know, like, companies moving and all that stuff. But we were, we were feeling the, you know, the new world like Vietnam has been exposed and it was going to be ended and, and, you know, people are, you know, there was a new music and there was, it was a cultural revolution. 1:29:14 SM: Yes. 1:29:15 JB: And I still cannot believe that I was actually partying with all these rednecks all over the United States [inaudible] Blacks, I mean, it was like, when did that happen? You were a good guy a few years ago. 1:29:29 SM: You know, itis really am- 1:29:30 JB: There is a lot of guys I know like that, you know. 1:29:32 SM: It, you bring some good points here because there was a feeling that amongst a lot of the boomer generation, but it was also the people that were older than the boomer generation too. I know around when I interviewed Richie Havens, he said, "Steve, I am a boomer in spirit, and-and I was born in (19)41." Because-because it is a feeling that we are going to change the world for the better. We are going to end you know, racism, sexism, homophobia, we are going to save the environment, we are going to be different than any other generation, it has proven not to be the case in a lot of the recent studies, but still there was that feeling amongst many of the young people. And that leads me in right into here. What-what do you think were the lessons of the (19)60s and (19)70s? What were the key lessons learned in that in that period? It can be one lesson or just, or just something that stands out. 1:30:40 JB: What? Read that again? 1:30:47 SM: Yeah. What were the lessons that we as a nation or individually could be, what did we will learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s? It could be learned, mistakes made or things that we did, right. What, you know, when we discussed this two, these two decades, what were some of the lessons we learned? 1:31:14 JB: Well, I think that I do not know if we learned them. But I think that the lesson was in, one of the big lessons was in it now not becoming involved in political, you know, I think we are coming away from, you know, anti-communism. I mean we have to protect the United States. But, you know, I think that, you know, going after the economics of other countries, you know, and having big business, you know, driv- you know, driving the boat, you know. That, that is not that is not the way to go, and I do not think that we have learned it, I think that we became aware of it. You know, and I think that we-we developed an awareness- the North East did, and probably California- we began, we developed an awareness of the, of the plight of the Black person. You know, we did not, well, you know, I was young, so I do not, you know, I cannot say, Well, you know, for five whole years, I did not realize that, you know what I mean so. But, but, you know, I get a kick out of talking to young kids these, you know now they go, "Oh, man, I have always been this way." I go, "Wait a second you are, you are 12." Always is not a very long time. But- 1:32:57 SM: What? 1:32:58 JB: -and I, you know, I think that I think that social programs, you know, the successes of Franklin Roosevelt, you know, was-was, [inaudible], you know, it was being internalized by a new generation of people that, you know, said, "Wow," you know, "That never was before," you know. These-these work programs and in Social Security, and you do not let the old people just wither on the vine, you know, well, actually we do. But, you know, in Medicare and Medicaid, those are great things. 1:33:39 SM: Yes. 1:33:39 JB: You know, I think Obamacare is a great thing, except it did not take it far enough. 1:33:44 SM: What was the what was the watershed event of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, in your view? 1:33:53 JB: Our watershed, Woodstock. Woodstock, the assassination of the Kennedys. And Martin Luther King, you know like, who is behind that? 1:34:10 SM: Do you believe in conspiracy theories? 1:34:13 JB: Yeah, I do. 1:34:16 SM: Yeah, and because, you know, we can reflect on it right now that we are still talking about that was more than Lee Harvey Oswald that shot John Kennedy. The-the, the Martin Luther King assassination that it was more than the one guy across the it, next to the motel, you know, it had to be more than just him. And of course, we know about Bobby, that things that happened in the, with Sirhan Sirhan. You know, if people have said that the gun that he was using, the bullets, none of them could have gotten to the bullets that hit the back of his head. It was, it was almost like anybody who was going to change the status quo in our society who were doing it in a very good way, humanistic way, we got to take them out because they were a threat. 1:35:08 JB: Yeah, right. 1:35:10 SM: I do not know, you know, to me that they dedicated their lives to others, and they dedicated it was not about them. It was about others. And because some group or entity or pride, who knows, they had to get rid of them. So, you do believe in conspiracy? 1:35:31 JB: Yeah, I just I just cannot wrap my head around who did it. You know, I mean, they go the mafia was mad at Bobby Kennedy. Alright, you know, what, were so they going to kill the guy running for president? You know, for me, that is a big, you know, it is a big thing to do, just because you do not like somebody, you know. But, you know, the crazy racists you know, they, they can do crazy things, because they do not like people. So that is one thing, but I do not know. I do not know. I always look at the economics of it. You know, it is like, well, who, who financially benefits? You know, I mean, it could have been like, you know, Pan Am was trying to get into Air Lingus, you know, "Let us shoot that guy." 1:36:23 SM: Yeah, it is, who knows. And one of the things about the (19)60s too, is that there were a lot of slogans that came out of the (19)60s that were kind of used every day. And there is three that I want to quote here, and I do not know if you have any more, but one of them was from Malcolm X, "By any means necessary," remember he used that, that was Malcolm and the people are still using that today. Timothy Leary time, "Tune in, turn on, drop out." And then Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone under, or over 30." And he was 29 when he said it [laughs]. Are there any slogans that you remember, you were around campaigns, I know that, "We like Ike" was the one in the (19)50s but, any slogans that come to your mind that politically or that your dad was-? 1:37:20 JB: Mmm, I do not know. 1:37:24 SM: You do not have to know [inaudible] say but the slogans- 1:37:28 JB: Yeah. 1:37:28 SM: -did come out the period, like the ones I mentioned. Do you still see the- 1:37:31 JB: Yeah. 1:37:32 SM: -the divisions that we saw in the (19)60s that are kind of still linked today in our society, particularly the culture wars that are going on? 1:37:43 JB: Yeah, really. You know, I, when, when, when George Bush was elected, I was of the theory, you know, I said, well, first of all, he was going to go in there, his job, the I thought he had only last four years. His job was to go in and dismantle everything that the Democrats have done. And, and just, you know, set the stage for, you know, just, you know, so everybody's got to do it all over again, or whatever. And then I had the opinion that, that these are the last desperate efforts of a dying political party, a dying belief. It is like a chicken with its head chopped off, you know, it will just go crazy. And they are doing all this stuff, but [inaudible], you know, their legs are kicking in they are dying. And-and I thought that is what it was. But now, I am starting to feel like, there is a worldwide effort that there is a, a, you know, an organized belief that it is not over, that they are going to re-install these right-wing backward thinking things, you know, I thought, you know, we were, I had thought that we were at the end, and that no matter what they do, or what they try to do, we were going to have a new way and a new world. And I like to think that that is still going to be true but I do not know. You know, I mean, the only because like all these guys, I know. You know, I am going out to California next week, and I am going to visit a friend of mine who, you know, he thinks that Obama was this, you know, this horrible thing. And now these are these anti Obama guys. They were the real scary ones. They are like, oh, [inaudible] so anti-Obama, you know like, "Wow, man, he has really ruined this country." It is like, in what way? What are you talking about? 1:39:55 SM: Yeah. 1:39:55 JB: You know, but they, they believe that. 1:39:59 SM: Yeah. 1:40:00 JB: If you hang around with them once in a while, and you start getting an understanding, an understanding of what they believe, that is a scary thing. They really believe- 1:40:09 SM: Well there is something you know, I have talked to, I am not- my role here as an interviewer is not to make judgment. But the thing, the thing is I have spoken to people who, you know, Donald Trump will eventually be out of office, but the people that that voted for him, will be still with us. And that– 1:40:28 JB: Yeah. 1:40:28 SM: -and if that is half of America well, where are we heading? So, I, you know, it really concerns me. When you look at the boomer generation, and young people like yourself and me when we were young, the post-World War Two, what were the qualities that you admired in that young generation and the ones you least admired? I asked this question to your dad. [laughs] 1:40:58 JB: Back then, like, what do I least admire about my generation back then? 1:41:03 SM: Yes, then and now. 1:41:08 JB: Well, I admired the idealism, you know, that we could have a better world and, you know, I admired you know, the-the belief that, you know, people were going to coexist peacefully, Blacks and whites, people help other, you know, nationalities and stuff and, you know, kind of a pride, you know, how we carried ourselves through history as a place where people can come and make a light that, you know, as long as they are contributors. You know, and now I do not know. What I do not like, is I do not like racist beliefs and, you know, right wing, you know, "Let them help themselves, they get to lift themselves up." You know, I do not believe that, you know, and I think that I do not, I do not like the line, the political line about, you know, okay, well, you know, your health insurance is going to be good, or your life is going to be okay. It is not going to be okay. It is going to be really bad. And you know what, I know. We are just getting towards the end of the first season. I am rewatching. All of the seasons of West Wing, what a great TV show. 1:42:50 SM: Yeah it is, it is a great TV show. 1:42:53 JB: It was, my brother Patrick thinks it is the best, you know, TV show ever made. He is in a lot of my brothers are all in the movies [inaudible]. 1:43:04 SM: Yeah, where what where are your brothers and sisters doing now? I know that your older sisters are, well there is three of them are singers, I believe. 1:43:14 JB: Yeah. 1:43:14 SM: And they live in Ithaca. And they are the Burns singers. And I remember talking to your dad about that. But what are what are the what, what is everybody doing in the family? 1:43:25 JB: Well, Bobby is, Bobby is in his mid-70s. I think he might be retired, but he is a social worker in Cleveland. And then there is my, the next is Patrick. He just retired, was the co-producer of the TV show Always Sunny in Philadelphia, from its origin. 1:43:47 SM: Oh, wow. 1:43:48 JB: And next is Sheila. She is a retired teacher in Ithaca, and at one time sang with the other girls. 1:43:59 SM: Right. 1:44:00 JB: Let us see, then me and I am a real estate broker in Binghamton. And my brother Joe is running for city council the, there is the fifth district. He is the next one under me. And he is retired from the movie industry. And he, he worked for Robert Redford on you know, A River Runs Through It. Scorsese and Robert DeNiro and many movies [inaudible], things like that. 1:44:33 SM: Wow. 1:44:34 JB: You know, he was system director under Oliver Stone and the JFK movie and a lot of different things and then Tommy, Tommy just, he did like 10 years as the co-producer of ER. And he just got done with Nashville and then I think he is in. I think he is in, well, he lives in LA, but he is shooting a funny show in Toronto with Leary what is his name, that funny guy. 1:45:19 SM: Oh, um. 1:45:22 JB: Kind of a sarcastic fast-talking New York guy. 1:45:25 SM: Yeah, I know who he is. I cannot remember the name. 1:45:27 JB: Yeah, you know what I mean. 1:45:28 SM: Yeah. 1:45:28 JB: And then that is Tommy. Then Marie Jean- Marie and Anne sing, are the Burns Sisters at the moment. And, and then you know Marie is in Ireland a lot of time. And they go out tour like next month, they will they will tour Ireland. They go every year. 1:45:49 SM: Wow. 1:45:49 JB: And they sing all over the place. And then Genie is in Ithaca half the time, and the other half in Texas. She is a singer, songwriter, and a [inaudible]. Danny as a coffee shop up in, in Maine and in Ithaca. And has a couple, he has a son who is like a prodigy violinist and stuff. And let us see Danny, and then Vincent, who is kind of like freelance traveling man with his wife and they travel around the country in a, you know, a car and a camper. And Vincent and then Terry is a singer songwriter and her husband is a produces television commercials and things like that Nashville, but they live in Ithaca. They have a band. They play all over too. And that is it, that is all 12. 1:47:03 SM: Now do you think of your mom and dad a lot? 1:47:07 JB: Oh, yeah. Yep. 1:47:08 SM: Yep. I have lost my mom and dad. But you know, when you lose your mom and dad, you seem like they seem like they are even closer than they ever were after they have gone. 1:47:16 JB: Yeah. 1:47:16 SM: I mean, it is every day. I never had the opportunity to ask my mom and dad, did they ever think of their mom and dad and that was I, I wish- did you ever ask your dad if he ever thought of his dad? 1:47:30 JB: He did not really, his father died when he was like 11 or 12 or something like that. 1:47:37 SM: Right. 1:47:38 JB: And his mother was the stenographer for the court, for the city court for I do not know, forty years or something. She was, she was quite a person. And then you know, she was like, lectured the judge, "You may only be too harsh on people." But she, but my dad is funny [inaudible] one day he told me when he was getting older, you know. And I said something to him. I cannot remember what it was, something about aging or something. And he goes, "Johnny" he says, "I do not," he says, "I feel like I you know, I look old. And I am old." He says, "But I feel exactly like I did when I was 22." 1:48:26 SM: Wow, that is amazing. That is, that is my thought. 1:48:31 JB: Yeah, me too. 1:48:32 SM: I you know, 1:48:33 JB: I do not see any difference. 1:48:34 SM: No, I- 1:48:35 JB: That time does not exist. 1:48:37 SM: Yeah. Wow. That, you know, now I know why I really got along with your dad I had that, we had about an hour with each other. And he was having a, he was sitting in that big chair in his apartment. And he said his back was hurt a little bit. And I remember your mother was in the other room very busy. And in this is a little anecdote here. When my mom was in the hospital, I am not sure if it was Lourdes or I do not know which hospital was but her roommate was your mom. 1:49:08 JB: Oh. [laughter] 1:49:10 SM: They share, they shared the same room. And so, this is a small world here. Now I have three final. 1:49:16 JB: Oh, that is funny. 1:49:17 SM: I have three final questions. The boomer generation always had this feeling when they especially when they are young that they are the most unique generation in American history, that they were going to change the world for the better and they really felt that, I mean it was across the board. Do you think they were the most unique generation in American history? Reflecting, you can reflect on you know, over time we can some people say no way. 1:49:47 JB: About our parents’ generation? 1:49:49 SM: No, our generation, the boomers. 1:49:51 JB: Oh, I think so far. I think so far because we were the, we were the breakaway generation. You know, but we were the breakaway teenagers and young adults, you know, like a lot of these guys sold their bell bottoms and got, you know, buzz cuts. 1:50:15 SM: Right. 1:50:16 JB: You know what I mean, they sold out. I guess I did, too. I mean, I am a real estate guy. [laughs] 1:50:23 SM: Well, one of the one of the things that the critics of the boomer generation is remember, folks, there were 74 million of them and only 7 percent or under ever got involved in any kind of activism. It is a way you know, it is a, and I say, and my response to that is, "Wow, that is a lot of people." If you are talking about 7 percent, of 74 million, so there is so there is then the next the last question is, I really, I just interviewed Bobby Muller. And Bobby said that he feels the lasting legacy of the (19)60s in many respects, especially amongst the boomer generation itself, is that they, they really do not trust anybody in positions of leadership anymore. Because of the lies that they have been, and now we are seeing lives today in, you know, Washington. That trust that trust is, if there is you know it is, Bobby said to me, he says, " Steve the-the Vietnam War is a long time ago, it is good that you are making sure the history of it is known. But in the end, it is the factor of trust that young people have in young- in people in positions of power," whether that be the like the mayor, like your dad, a mayor or a principal in a high school, or head of a corporation or a minister in a church. I mean, the there was this feeling that all leaders are bad, because they have been lied to, your thoughts if that is really still prevalent in America? 1:51:57 JB: Well, yeah, I think it is really prevalent in America now. And I think what was really disappointing, you know, as, you know, as we are looking at results of the, you know, of our generation is that reform really did not get any traction. We did not reform campaign finance. And that same shit is going to keep the world exactly the same as it was, nothing is, you know, what, there is an old saying, in AA, that says, "If nothing changes, then nothing changes." You know, and that is the way it is, you know, it is a, you know, we are still going to get, you know, the big corporations and really wealthy people, and that has become more prevalent now that, the real wealthy. Now we have, you know, we have billionaires running for office, because they are the only ones they can afford to do it, you know. 1:52:58 SM: Right. 1:52:59 JB: And, and so they are either selling out or they got an agenda that we do not want or, you know, or that we have to rely on a, you know, a benefactor, you know, a rich benefactor to save us, and it is not democracy that is doing it. It is big money, and then we just cross our fingers that, you know, he is, he is really a good person. 1:53:25 SM: Right. 1:53:26 JB: You know like the mayor in New York, there what is his-? 1:53:28 SM: De Blasio. 1:53:29 JB: He wants to be president. 1:53:30 SM: De Blasio. 1:53:31 JB: No, not him. The other guy, the Republican. He used to be a Democrat, the Jewish guy. 1:53:39 SM: I am not even sure. 1:53:42 JB: Oh, he is a billionaire. [inaudible] 1:53:46 SM: Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh, my goodness, man. I cannot. 1:53:52 JB: Cannot think of his freaking name. 1:53:53 SM: Yeah, we are both the same boat. 1:53:57 JB: This is not a good sign [laughter]. 1:53:59 SM: No, that is not a good sign and we are supposed to be young. [laughter] He has got his own under radio show, a TV network and everything else. 1:54:11 JB: Yeah, begins with W. H and W. WH, uh. 1:54:19 SM: Yeah. [inaudible] think it is Broad Berger or something Berger. 1:54:23 JB: Oh, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah. Something Burg- uh Bromberg. 1:54:29 SM: Bromberg yes. 1:54:31 JB: Is it? 1:54:32 SM: I do not know, all I know is- 1:54:34 JB: How about David Bromberg? 1:54:35 SM: I am not sure, well that he was an entertainer, was not he? 1:54:39 JB: Oh, yeah. He is unbelievable. 1:54:40 SM: Yeah, yeah. Yep. My last question is this, and this is, I have not talked about Vietnam that much but- on this particular one- but the Vietnam memorial was built and opened in (19)82. And of course, you know, we know how Vietnam veterans are treated when they came back from the war, they were treated very poorly. 1:54:41 JB: Still around. Yeah. x1:55:00 SM: And I mean, terrible. And of course, the wall's been, you know, there since (19)82. And it was the first time they ever came together. And the goal of the wall was to, you know, to really pay remembrance to those who served and died in the war and to help with the healing of the families and- 1:55:20 JB: Yeah. 1:55:20 SM: -lost loved ones in the whole works. The key question that Jan Scruggs used to sing when he wrote his first book, The Healing of a Nation was the book that he wrote. And I know Jan quite well, and I have interviewed him quite a few times. Do you think that there is still the issue of healing from this war? And we are hearing that Bobby says we are the war is a long time ago now, we got issues with China. He started going into detail, it is just forget Vietnam. I mean, I was very involved in it for a long time, and I care about veterans. But time has moved on, and there are other issues. And do you think that we as a nation have healed from that war be the division- 1:56:05 JB: Vietnam? 1:56:06 SM: Yeah, from Vietnam, the divisions that were happening then and the divisions that like, still continue today, whether it be in the cultural war, those who were for or against the war, those who served those who did not serve. I know, it is a long time ago now, I hate to say it is over 50 years. But just your thoughts on when he wrote the book, To Heal a Nation, you know, it is, have we healed the nation? 1:56:33 JB: Well, I do not you know, my personal feelings about it is that that I think that some things have gotten worse, like, like, you know, we did not like the military. And then and the guys that went in, you know, we were not empathetic for you know, but you know, a lot of our cousins and brothers and people, you know, they, they are, you know, they are good guys, and they were there and that is it, you know. But, but the, the all this, I hate all this, you know, oh the Marines "Oh, my God, everybody stand up," there is guys walking through right now that are helping Exxon make fucking money. You know, it is like, you know, they think these poor souls that are in the service, think that they are defending the United States, and they are not. They are helping, they are the oils company sponsors you know, secures them. Have you ever, have you ever heard of the, in Afghanistan has one of the largest deposits of these special metals, you see, you know, they are, they are very hard to find. And they are very expensive. And they are in communication phones and things like that, that the biggest locations of it in the world or in Afghanistan, you know, it is not a coincidence that. Like, we do not give a shit, what happens to the women in Iraq, and Iran and Saudi Arabia, we do not we do not care about them. But we are very empathetic to the Afghanistan women and how they are treated. You know, what is that about? You know, it is about money. Like they want something that is in the ground in Afghanistan, I believe that. You know, remember when, there is a great book. I have not read the whole thing, because it is like a huge and my attention span, I still have to make money too. But it is called The Prize. And it is about the dawn of oil into everything, you know, when they first started using it, and then they realized it could be a fuel. I mean, how they were drinking this stuff. You know, they did not know what to do with it. They knew it was good, though. So anyway, once oil came onto the scene, you know, like, they talked a little bit about how what is his name in the- Winston Churchill. Bloomberg is the guy. 1:59:36 SM: Bloomberg, yes. 1:59:37 JB: [inaudible] but they-they have they have him having to make a decision right around the end of World War One, beginning of World War Two or somewhere in there, where he had to make a decision, "Am I going to dump- am I going to stick with steam and coal to keep my navy going, or am I going to oil?" And you know, that is what everybody was doing. They were all deciding what they were doing. But I remember being a little kid, and watching World War Two movies, the Germans and the Americans and all this stuff. And I would always ask myself, what the hell -are they, Germany's Germany. You know, it is like, why are they in the desert? What are they doing fighting in the desert? You know, why are they there? They were there, because that was where the oil was. 1:59:37 SM: Yep. 1:59:45 JB: You know. And if you look at, you know, if you look at, you know, that, that if you just focused on just that, like, okay, well, what happened, and, and what was the result, and where was the oil and everything. It makes a lot more sense than, okay, we are going to go down there and kick their butt. And then but anyway. 2:01:03 SM: Well, I am basically done. But are there any final thoughts or any observations or things that you might want to say that I did not ask? 2:01:13 JB: You know, I mean, I was lucky, you know, like I was, although we were not wealthy, I was privileged, because of the position my father rose to, you know, and, and there are so many people in the world that are not lucky. You know, and, and for some reason, you know, you think about the education that we all got, and, you know, we are part of a certain type of people. You know, it is not necessarily like what I learned in college, or what, my brothers were, you know, at the top of their industry, in production of movies and television programs. You know, like, I am a top producing guy, I have had a TV show for 20 years. You know, I, you know, I am creative, I make money. My sisters are singers, and, you know, like, everybody has had a level of success in not necessarily real common areas, but-but, you know, we did not choose to, you know, work in a factory or to, you know, work for a large corporation or anything 2:02:34 SM: Right. 2:02:34 JB: And all, you know, we are all kind of independent people. I do not know what all that means. But I do know that, you know, I am, I am, I am kind of lucky that way, you know, in my dad did not really make any money and did not end up with any real money or anything like that. But-but, you know, he had an exciting, interesting life. 2:02:59 SM: Yeah, well, you know- 2:03:00 JB: I see a lot of that. 2:03:01 SM: I am, well, I think your dad is, is one of the good guys. And I was a student at Binghamton at the time. And I always admired him from afar. And, and I know, he is probably very proud of all of his kids, and what you have done in your lives. And I think what it says it all at the very is what we you, you and I both said that we think about our parents every day, and even though they are gone, and you have got our own families and kids and all this and so forth. But obviously, they played- 2:03:34 JB: Did you ever know Kete Dover? They used to live out on Pennsylvania Avenue, there is another guy, they were like hippies they lived there was like a commune there. Exactly. Out on Upper Penn Ave. 2:03:37 SM: No-no. 2:03:44 JB: Hawleyton Road. 2:03:51 SM: I did not. 2:03:54 JB: Yeah, those guys are all still around. 2:03:56 SM: [laughs] They still got a commune? 2:03:59 JB: No, no. 2:04:00 SM: Okay. I know there is. [inaudible] Yeah, there is still that farm, the farm down in Tennessee, that still exists. So 2:04:09 JB: Yeah. 2:04:09 SM: Well I want to thank you for the for doing this and being interviewed and I am going to before I am going to just turn the tape machine off here. Thank you very much, John Burns. 2:04:20 JB: Okay. Thank you very much and- 2:04:23 SM: Let me turn this- 2:04:23 JB: -reach out some time. 2:04:23 SM: Let me turn this. Yeah, let me let me turn this- (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Cleary Biographical Text John Cleary, a native of Scotia, NY, was a student at Kent State University when he was shot in the chest by the National Guardsman. After his recovery, Cleary received his Bachelor's Degree in Architecture from Kent State University and practiced in Pittsburg, PA until his retirement. Date of Interview 2022-01-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:20:39 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords "Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Kent State shooting; Protest; Activism; Architectural degree; College campus; College education; Life magazine. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Cleary Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 26 January 2022 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 All right, we are all set. I can put it on? Okay, I am going to put you on... All right. Again, John, thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview. I always start out the interviews with a question about your early years. Could you, could you describe your growing up years, where you were born, what kind of a neighborhood you came from, what your parents did for a living, kind of your hometown environment during your elementary and secondary school years? JC: 00:34 Sure. I actually grew up in a very rural area in upstate New York, near Schenectady, Albany. The actual name of the town was Scotia. And we actually live probably about five to six miles outside of Scotia. So we were really in a very rural area. My parents had a small Cape Cod house on probably about three acres of land. Actually, they were right near kind of an intersection. And on the one corner, the intersection was Centre Glenville Methodist Church which we went to, we attended. And so it was basically within walking distance of our house, even though we were in a rural area. And then on the other side of the intersection was Glendale Elementary School, where I basically went to, you know, first through sixth, you know, I spent, I was very much of an outdoor person and my younger years, spent a lot. I was involved in scouting quite a bit. And so we did a lot of camping trips and fishing trips. And I just really enjoyed that aspect of it. Trying to think here, oh and then we you know, these were the days when you kind of had pickup baseball games, no, no adults involved. Everyone grabbed their mitts and a baseball. And since we were within walking distance to the elementary school, there was a ball field in the back. And I just remember in spring and summer, after school, going over there and some of the kids did not have gloves. So when you, when you were in the outfield, and you got your turn at bat, you just dropped your glove on the ground where it was, and then people would run out and they would share your gloves but that was just kind of our upbringing. Probably in about fifth or sixth grade, I really got interested in skiing. And my parents, there was a golf course, probably within a 30 minutes’ drive of our house where they set up a rope tow in the winter. And so I would go over there, they dropped me off at eight in the morning and pick me up at five and I skied all day and have a great- -great time of it. Later, when I got into high school, we used to have a ski club and my parents had dropped me off. We would get a bus at like six in the morning and drive two to three hours. You know we were at the foothills of the Adirondacks and close to Vermont. And so we would ski a different resort every Saturday. And gosh I remember I think this is like, you know, it was not a school bus, it was pretty nice Coach bus and I think that the cost of the bus and the lift ticket was like $7. SM: 03:33 Wow. It is a little different today [laughs]. JC: 03:51 No, it is different today could not even get a, probably could not even get a hamburger and a coke for that. SM: 04:29 [laughs] That is true, when you were a kid were you a Pittsburgh pirate fan? JC: 04:34 Well I grew up in upstate New York so. SM: 04:36 Okay, who was your, who your favorite players? JC: 04:42 You know what I did not really follow the-the you know, well I followed the Yankees and gosh, you were going to, you were going to try to- there was of course Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford. There were you know some of the other major players. My dad was a huge New York Giants fan. So I remember on Sunday afternoons, sitting in the living room and watching football with my dad. SM: 05:13 Yeah. I am a big Giants fan. I grew up in Ithaca and Cortland. So that is, that Giant's country. JC: 05:20 Yeah, there you go. SM: 05:21 Yeah. When you were, how did your parents and your young peer friends feel about the issues in the news that were taking place during those early years, particularly in the early (19)60s, their thoughts on, you know, at the dinner table when you were with your parents or your, really your friends in school. Did you ever talk about the-the war in Vietnam, the civil rights movement and some of the other movements that were taking place at that time, some for the first time? JC: 05:53 Well, I mean, I have to be honest here and say that really, I was not really political at all, I was kind of in my own little bubble in upstate New York. And basically, like I said, I was very much involved with the doing things outdoors and did not watch hardly any TV, did not watch or read any, any papers per se. We did not really talk politics at the dinner table. Usually, it was about the day's events, or, you know, when I say day's events, meaning what I had done, or what my parents had done, or you know, those-those types of issues. We really did not talk politics at all in our family. SM: 06:48 Did-did you ever, just as just as you now, this is not talking about, did you ever feel that you were something- this was way before college- that your generation was so different than any other generation? Because it was the biggest generation in history, because you were one of the children of the world war two generation- 74 million. And it seemed like everything in the news in the late (19)40s, (19)50s and (19)60s was all about these young boomers. Did you ever think about the, being a part of that generation that seems to be in the news every minute? JC: 07:26 To be honest, I really did not and, and, you know, probably in my own naïveté you know, I was just kind of cruising along with my, you know, friends that I hung out with and did things and did not really look at the overall picture nationwide, what was going on. It really was not until I went to Kent that I really began to be exposed to anything going on outside our little community. You know, we had one, one TV in the house. And basically, you know, we were watching Bonanza and Disney show. I do think my parents watched the nightly news. But, you know, I certainly was not involved in that. So, I did not really kind of piece together any kind of an overall picture what my generation was doing or, you know, I obviously had some brushes with the Vietnam War, especially. And then this was really more, maybe my senior year or my freshman at Kent, when they had the draft. I fortunately got a high number. And so, I really did not have to worry about the draft, but I did have some high school friends, especially those that I hung around with, who got low numbers, and one, one, one went into the Navy, and the other one enlisted in the Air Force. So, they-they were basically, you know, avoiding having to go into the army. SM: 09:32 Right. Now, why did you pick Kent State? JC: 09:39 Well, I was vacillating my senior years to what I wanted to major in and I started it started to gel that I thought architecture might be the right direction for me and at one time thought about going into the medical field to become a doctor. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought that I was a little more of a creative person. And so I thought architecture would be the better route for me. And my dad worked, it was like, probably the only, it was the major employer in the area, General Electric. And he had a coworker, a friend of his, whose son went to Kent, and majored in architecture. And so, my dad said, "Hey, look, my, you know, my son, John is thinking about going into architecture and I know your son is going to Kent, would you mind if he came over and just kind of looked at what, what your son is doing at Kent?" And so we went over and visited them. And of course, he pulls out these presentation boards that he had done, and some models that he had done. And I was kind of blown away. I said, this is really cool stuff. And, you know, I loved what he what he was doing and what he was involved in. So, we-we decided to go out in the spring and check out Kent. I had looked at Syracuse University, which is the you know, it still is- it was pretty expensive, even for somebody who lived in the state. And Syracuse is a little more of an urban campus. And when I went to Kent, and we went for a weekend because a little bit of a drive, and they had an orientation, where they gave you a tour of the campus. And I just remember feeling really comfortable. And you know, on, I liked the size of the campus, I liked the layout of the campus, it was more spread out and just had a really nice feel for it, and that was really what would push me to go there. SM: 12:15 Now I know that I, I am from Ithaca and Cornell has a really good architecture program too. I believe their program was five years. Was your- a five year program? Or was it four? JC: 12:26 Yeah. It actually was, it was a five year program. SM: 12:29 Yep. And I thought that is pretty common now. And that is a pretty, it is a really good program to get into. It is sometimes very difficult to get into too. JC: 12:39 Yeah, I think we thought maybe Cornell might be out of reach for me. I mean, I was a fairly good school student in high school, but I was not outstanding. SM: 12:49 Now, when you went to Kent State University, what was your first impression? So that first year you were there, what kind of an environment was it? Was it one with a lot of activism going on? Was there good relationships between the community and the students? What kind of a feel did you get beyond the classroom? JC: 13:10 Well, the interesting thing is, I kind of felt this almost tidal wave of change, which I felt happened the year that I was a freshman. Because when I when I first arrived on campus as a freshman, you know, people were still kind of dressing up to go to classes. You saw boys with ties and women in, you know, skirts and dresses, and we have RAS. And they had like a kind of a freshman orientation. And we were supposed to wear these goofy hats called thinks. So that upperclassmen could pick on you, you know, it was kind of still that kind of (19)60s type of mentality. That kind of began to fall by the wayside in the winter. And by spring, I mean, really, everyone was dressing extremely casually, jeanies, hair was getting longer, you know, just really saw a tremendous change in environment there. I guess the other point I was going to make was because architecture is a little bit of a difficult program, you-you really needed to have study groups to kind of help each other along with homework and classroom assignments. So, you know, I immediately began to bond with about maybe five or six freshmen architectural students. You know, we would study together, we worked together on projects. So, you know, the friendships really began to form fairly early. And that was kind of specific to my architectural programs. I guess I like to say, you know, I probably missed some great times down on Water Street and the bars that first year- SM: 15:21 Right. JC: 15:22 -because I was I was a little bit too concerned about my grades and everything. SM: 15:28 Right. JC: 15:30 But and I suppose I was not a drinking age yet then either. But either way, I did not really discover much of the downtown life until spring. SM: 15:42 Yeah, what year you begin there? JC: 15:48 (19)69. SM: 15:49 (19)69. You know (19)69, you know, I was just, I just had an interview with another person and who was there at that time. And the political environment of about Kent State from afar was that it, you know, Ohio University and Ohio State, were the two that were more very activist oriented with a lot of protests and everything, did not realize how many protests took place at Kent State. And-and how big these Students for Democratic Society was on the campus, who were against the war. Did you see any friction between the students at that time between those who were against the war and those who were for it? JC: 16:35 I do remember. I mean, let us, let us fast forward to the spring. I do not really do not really remember any of that in the fall or the winter. I am not saying that it was not there. But I do not remember seeing any of it. And then in the spring, there were some more outdoor rallies. And I, you know, I began to see these anti-war protests. And the school of architecture was located on the top floor of Taylor Hall. So we oversaw the campus, so when there were rallies and you know, things going on-on the commons, we would overlook that, and we would see it, and we would hear it. But I will be honest with you, I did not really attend any, any of those rallies, but I was witness to them. I did not really see any clashes between regular students and activists, but I did witness the spring rallies that were going on-on campus. SM: 17:59 Did you get a feeling there at the time that there was a tension within the community toward the students? That is the city, the city of Kent, the people who were not students? JC: 18:12 Well, I have to be careful here. Because, you know, obviously, you know, we read it, you know, we have read things and you know, you know, I have read a lot about how the townspeople resented the students, and were concerned about the students. But for me, personally, I did not spend a lot of time in town. Like I said, I did not really discover Water Street or Main Street until the spring. So, I cannot honestly say that, that that myself personally, that I saw any of that. SM: 18:52 Leading up to that, the terrible tragedy that happened on the fourth of May (19)70. Can you describe that day? What, how that opened? What you were doing in the day itself? And then sadly, how you were in the line of fire? JC: 19:12 Sure. I do not know if you want me to or not, but I, I can kind of go over the entire weekend, if you want. SM: 19:21 I would like that because I have got five interviews I have done now. And I- what is important, John, is I just want people who are not alive today. These are going to be for research and scholarships for students, faculty and national scholars down the road. And in Kent, what happened at Kent State is the, one of the historic events of the (19)60s, no question, in fact, in American history, in my view. If you want to go over what happened maybe from April 30th when Nixon announced his speech or about going into Cambodia? JC: 19:56 Yeah, what I was going to do is pick it up from Friday. Because, you know, things really changed for me starting on-on Friday. I was once again haven't really [audio cuts]. SM: 20:23 Still there? Whoops. Okay, we are all set, we are back. JC: 20:48 I was talking about Sunday. And there was really kind of a real tension that you could feel between the students and the military on campus. When you walked around campus, there was military presence everywhere. And I think for a lot of the antiwar students and the activists, you know, this, this was a really upsetting thing, to-to have this strong military presence on their campus. And so everywhere you went on Sunday, there were National Guard, at campus buildings, parking lots, driving up and down the streets. It was really kind of a little disconcerting. And right around dusk, there was a curfew that went into place. And basically, what they told us was that no groups of students more than three could be out at any one time. And we typically ate dinner a little bit later, because we would be doing work or doing some stuff up at Taylor Hall. So when we were done with dinner, and trying to walk back across an open area to our dorms, they were threatening to tear gas us because there was like three or four of us. So we had to break into smaller groups. And I know there were some groups that came out at the dining hall later, after we did, that were tear gassed. And probably around eight in the evening or so there was an attempt to have some sort of a rally on Commons. Helicopters appeared, with search lights and bull horns. And the group was tear gassed. The tear gas drifted back into our dorm. And so, we-we ran out of the building, because we could not breathe. And the Guardsmen who were deployed outside, forced us back into the building. They did not want to hear any of our excuses. They said there was a curfew, we had to stay in the building. So, we finally went into the study lounges and kind of hunkered down, because they were not as bad with the tear gas. And we really did not get much sleep that night. There were helicopters hovering all over campus that were loud. They were kind of harassing anyone that was outside. So you know, it was a pretty tense night. And it was a long night. Like I said, we did not get much sleep. So then, Monday, classes were still in session. So that Monday morning, I went to, I believe it was my English class. And the-the building entrance had soldiers on each side of it. And our professor said, you know, that there was probably going to be a rally at noon and it was our decision whether we should attend it or not. And pretty much everywhere I went that morning, the talk was that there was going to be a noon rally. So when I was done with my English class, and I decided that I would borrow my roommate's camera, he had a little instamatic. I enjoyed photography but unfortunately at that point, I did not have my camera with me. So, I borrowed his camera and thought, well, I am going to go to the rally more out of curiosity to see what was going to happen, than really, to support any cause one way or the other. And so I did go to the, to the rally, I kind of stood off to the side. I watched it as it grew in size, I really felt there was kind of a hardcore group that were right around the victory bale of maybe 100 to 200 students that were really actively protesting. And there were probably a couple 1000 there around that were just kind of watching similar to what I was doing. Some of them were going to their classes. The, the commons area is kind of in the middle of campus. And it is really a crossroads for anyone going to class. So it is a natural point where people are going to be walking through to get to maybe the union or for-for lunch, or to, to go to class. So, you know, I saw a Jeep come out with a bullhorn. And they ordered everyone to disperse and said, this was an illegal rally, and you were ordered to disperse, which pretty much everyone ignored. And so they, there was a line of guardsmen that were down, kind of almost guarding the burned out ROTC building, which was at the end of the commons, kind of sitting there in ruins. And so they, they started to move out, the guardsmen moved out on file. There were two companies. I could be incorrect, I believe it was A and C. And one, one went to the right of Taylor Hall, and one went to the left of Taylor Hall. And they started to push students back with tear gas, firing tear gas into the students. Some of the students were able to pick up the tear gas and throw it back at the guardsmen. So you can kind of see this back and forth between the guardsmen and the students with the tear gas. I did take some pictures of the guardsmen as they walked up. I was to, as you face Taylor Hall, I was more towards the left hand side, near the pagoda. And the National Guards kind of walked by me, I was fairly close to them. You know, I felt these are professional soldiers. And I did not feel threatened by them. And I felt as long as I behaved myself and did not do anything, that there should be no issue with them. And so they did go by me. And I took some pictures as I went by. They went down to, there was a parking lot in front of Taylor Hall. And they ended up in a practice football field, which is no longer there. And at the soccer or football field, well, I do not remember exactly, there were some chain-link fencing on two sides of it. So they were kind of hemmed in just a little bit, and they kind of regrouped there and kind of huddled together. And the students, by that time had been pushed down into the parking lot. And there was a small group that were still pretty active. Kind of yelling obscenities at them. There might have been a few rocks that were thrown, but at the distance they were, they certainly were not reaching the guardsmen. At one point the guardsmen did kneel and aim their weapons into the crowd. And did not really discourage any of the protesters. And then at some point, the-the guardsmen kind of re huddled together, it felt like they were discussing what they were going to do next. And then they reformed into a line and begin to walk back up this hill towards the pagoda. And to what I was thinking, that they were going to go back over, they called it Blanket Hill, and to the, to the commons. And there, there was kind of a feeling, I think, at that point, that things were wrapping up. And I do know that some of the students were beginning to leave, heading to their classes. And I was going to go into Taylor Hall, I had a design class that afternoon, and I was going to go in and get ready for my class. And so, I walked up to the-the entrance of Taylor Hall, and there is a metal sculpture there. And I was standing next to the metal sculpture, and I thought to myself, I am going to get one more picture of them right before they get over the crest of the hill. So I stood there. And I was with this instamatic and I had to rewind the camera so that I could get to the next shot. So, I was rewinding, you know, the camera, getting it ready to take a shot and they-they reached the crest of the hill, and I was getting the camera ready to raise up. And suddenly, they just turned and fired. And without any warning. And it just seemed like there was this instantaneous movement in unison, where the soldiers all turned and fired. And I believe they were firing more towards the parking lot. But I happened to be in their line of fire. And I do kind of, before I was hit, I do kind of remember, Joe Lewis was in front of me, maybe by 50 or 75 feet, not a lot. I do not think there was anyone else. I do not think there was anyone else in front of us other than the two of us, because really, the bulk of the people were either off to the side or behind me. And I do remember thinking, he was giving them the finger, you know, he was, he was flicking them off. And seconds later, they-they fired, and I got hit in the chest. I like to say, it is like, I felt like I got hit in the chest with a sledge hammer. I dropped to the ground. And I really do not have any more recollection of what happened at that point. I do remember kind of coming to in the hospital. And they were, they were doing triage at the time. And I was out in a corridor, and I was in a fair amount of pain. And my concern was that I would be forgotten. And I remember kind of panicking a little bit. Because, do they know that I am out here in this corridor? And finally, a couple of nurses came out and the first thing they wanted to know was, "Do you have your parents phone number, do you have some contact numbers?" And it is like, "Why aren't you helping me?" and they are, you know, they are, "Well, you are going to go in shortly to see the doctor but we need to be able to contact your parents." So I remember reeling off a bunch of phone numbers, home phone number and office phone numbers, and they finally wheeled me in to see a doctor. And I think I almost immediately went into surgery. And the next thing I remember, was in a hospital room with Dean Taylor and Joe Lewis as, as roommates. SM: 35:18 Wow-wow. I know, the picture of, on Life magazine is a picture of you, I believe with- JC: 35:27 [inaudible] SM: 35:27 -students around you. And I had that magazine along with the one from, I think, Newsweek, hanging in my office for many years. I was reading about that particular picture. And it is my understanding that students were in a circle around you were kind of protecting you. And they were holding hands. So no further harm could come to you. JC: 35:54 Yeah, and I- the interesting thing is, like I said, I do not have any recollection after the point that I was shot. And I was not aware of that. And Howard Ruffner took that picture. I am sure you are aware of that. And about two years ago, Howard Ruffner was in Kent to promote a new book that he had written. And basically, it was a series of photographs taken on that day. And it was right before the 50th anniversary, before COVID had hit. And so I decided, well, this is be a great opportunity to see Howard because he lives in California. And so, we certainly do not have many opportunities to get together. So I went up to Kent, and we had a reunion of sorts. Unfortunately, the media kind of made a little bigger deal about it than I thought they would, but they did. But he was showing me pictures. And he had taken a picture of the students circled around me holding hands. And that really hit me, that was a very impactful picture. And in some respects, I liked that picture better than the one he took of me. Because it really shows, you know, at that point, they did not know if the guards were coming back or not. And they were putting their life kind of on the line to protect me. And not only that, but the students that were working on me, Joe Kolum, and some others, you know, really saved, I think, saved my life. So I am really in a debt of gratitude to them for doing that. SM: 38:10 I know, when I interviewed Joe, he said that when he was put in the ambulance, you were right by his side, in the same ambulance. JC: 38:20 That very well could be I like I said, I just do not remember the ambulance ride at all. SM: 38:27 Now, how long did it take you to recuperate from this serious injury so that you can get back to school? JC: 38:33 I was in hospital for about two weeks. I was intensive care for about a week. There was, there was some concern early on about infection and some other issues. Because of the extent of the injuries, but you know, you are young. I was 19 I think at the time, 18 or 19. So I did, was able to bounce back and after two weeks what they kind of quietly got me to the airport. I have to tell you this. I guess it is an amusing story. But when-when I was at Kent as a freshman, I bought a car there and it was an old car, Chrysler, 1957 Chrysler. It was like a limousine this thing was a boat. And after I was shot, my parents flew out and they were able to use my car and because it had Ohio plates on it, pretty much could go anywhere and not be bothered by the press because they did not know who they were. And I flew home two weeks later, and they drove my car home with all my belongings. And when they got to the driveway of our house, the power steering pump caught on fire. And the car, there were flames coming out of the hood. And they flung open the door and threw all my belongings on the lawn. And fortunately, the car did not. It was just a small fire and they were able to put it out. But my parents loved to tell the story how every belonging I had was thrown out on the front lawn. SM: 40:48 Wow. And now, of course, classes are canceled. And you did you start back in the fall? JC: 40:57 Yeah, I flew home. I flew home about two weeks later, and recuperated that summer. And the professors were really great. And they did it for everybody, not just me. They sent us homework assignments, they sent us classwork, and we are able to complete our semester. You know, this is before the internet and emails, everything was done through the mail, you know, US Postal Service. And they would mail me assignments, and they and they did not cut me any slack either. And I did the work and got grades for it. So I was able to complete my freshman year. And then the following fall, you know, I went back to Kent. SM: 41:59 Now, and you got your degree in five years. JC: 42:01 I did. SM: 42:02 And, and well, how has your career been? Yeah, you, and how did you end up in Pittsburgh? JC: 42:12 Well, my-my wife was originally from Pittsburgh. And when we graduated from Kent. It was (19)74. And the economy was not doing really good right then. And jobs are really scarce. And trying to go back to upstate New York, there was just absolutely nothing there. Like I said, I was in more of a rural community, small town. And really, for architecture, you need a bigger, you [inaudible] you need more of an urban town. So, we had looked at Cleveland, that was one of our thoughts. And we also looked at Pittsburgh, and I liked the lay of the land of Pittsburgh, it was a little more mountainous, and had the hills and the rivers. And it reminded me a little more of upstate New York. So we ended, up I got a job in Pittsburgh, it was touch and go. If I had not gotten a job in Pittsburgh, we probably would have ended up in Cleveland. But I did get a job in Pittsburgh and that is where we, where we ended up. SM: 43:37 Now, after the, what I have also noticed about coming to the remembrance events over the past month, not the last two years, obviously. But last, over the 50 year period, is the camaraderie between those who are wounded and the families of those who died. I know there are a lot of issues after the, after the initially because I know there was a, there was a trial for some of the activists and so forth. But how did who was responsible for the camaraderie between the nine that were wounded and the families of the four that were killed? JC: 44:15 Well, I think a lot of that had to do with the May Force Task Group. And, you know, I will be honest with you, I was starting out in my career and work was tough. And I really did not attend the trials the way that I should have. And I had a family that I had to support. And so, I could not really take the time to go up to Cleveland for the civil trials. So I was really only there when-when I had to be and so I really did not bond with the wounded students and the families until a few, quite a few years later, maybe 10 years later. My, believe it or not, my son was born on May 4th. SM: 45:13 Oh my God. JC: 45:13 And obviously that was not planned. And it just happened that way. And so I have a pretty strong faith. And I felt like God was telling me something, you know, you cannot, you cannot bury this, you cannot pretend it did not happen to you. You cannot put it behind you. It is something that you need to confront. So I started going back to the commemorations and the May Fourth Task Force would put on a breakfast on those mornings on May 4th, and at those breakfasts would be the other wounded students and family members. And so it just began a process of getting to know people casually at first, just sitting there and having breakfast with them, and spending a little time with their family and bringing my family and Tom Grace and Alan Canfora reached out to me. And both Tom and Alan are big baseball fans. And so I guess in Buffalo, where Thomas from, the Pittsburgh Pirates had a [inaudible] team. So we did, both Tom and Alan came down one time. And we went to a pirate’s game. [crosstalk] So yeah, we had a great time. And so, you know, it just began a process of getting to know one another. And I have tried, in the last four or five years since I have been retired, to try to reach out and get to know, some of the wounded students a little better. About two years, two and a half years ago, my wife and I were out. And we did a Northwest trip to Seattle and Portland. And Joe lives out there. And so we made a point to swing by and have lunch with Joe and his wife, got to see where Joe lived. And, you know, that was meaningful for us. And Tom and I have gotten together several times. And so it is just a matter of and-and Dean Kahler. We, about a year ago, Joe was traveling through Kent, he was actually moving one of his sons back to Oregon. And the three of us got together at a local, I cannot even remember if it was a Ponderosa or what it was, but it was a lunch place. And, you know, we commented on it was, you know, these were the three of us that were hospital roommates. And it was kind of nice to get together without the, all the noise and attention that May 4th typically brings. So the times that we get together when we can kind of be out of the limelight, and just be ourselves- SM: 48:57 Yep. JC: 48:57 -I think has gone a long way to establishing some, hopefully some long-term relationships. SM: 49:08 And that is very important, that whole issue of healing. One of the questions I have asked him a lot of the people that I have interviewed are dealing with the Vietnam War, and healing from that war and the divisions it caused in America. And, and Jan Scruggs wrote a book and I think it can apply to any kind of a tragedy, To Heal a Nation. And the basic premise behind the building of the Wall in (19)82 was to heal the families who lost loved ones in that war and not to make it a political statement, but to remember those who lost their lives, and so that they will never be forgotten number one, and then also provide healing within the family and the families of the veterans, but also to pay respects to those who fought in that war and came home and were treated so poorly by America upon their return. So, the one thing about healing, do you use have do you, it is a word that sometimes is overused. But do you have still any issues with healing from this tragedy? JC: 50:17 What I have found is going up to the commemorations I, I used to always kind of hang in the back and you know, kind of be anonymous in and not really want to, you know, participate. But the last five years or so I have kind of taken on the tact that, you know, we, you know, our numbers are dwindling, and we need to respect those that were slain on that day, and the other wounded students, and, you know, remember them. And walking around the parking lot during commemoration right before them, where the markers are where the students were slain. People have come to me that maybe they recognize me, or, you know, they might just say, "Were you there?" You know, obviously, I am in my 70s, I look the part, you know, "Where were you on May 4th?" And when I share my story, I find that there are a lot of people out there that were there that day that are hurting, and they, they need to share their story. And so, I find that many a time when I am out there talking to people who were there, they were filling in the blanks for me, when I was unconscious, and when I did not witness what they witnessed the hurt and the pain, that they went through seeing the carnage and seeing the bodies on the ground. You know, I was lucky in that I did not witness that. But they did. And I think it becomes a healing process for all of us, when we talk about it together, and we have these shared experiences of being there. Each of our stories are different. And yet they are kind of weaved together to make this one large picture. SM: 52:45 Very-very well said, I know that Alan, before he passed, a couple of years before he passed, he was adamant and brought in some great programs. He was always a leader, he was always he was always lead taking the lead. And you know, and making sure because it was all about the four that died and those that are wounded. He was all about them. And, and he did a tremendous job. But he but he and several others wanted to find out who, who gave the order to do the shooting. This is the whole issue. And they brought that man there that they said they think they had him on tape. And I know that Alan was up there in the front. And there were a couple other guests there too, who were, you know, supporting that concept that whoever gave the order. And-and so do you still feel that we need to find out who did it? I mean, we know that who that they were shot my guardsmen, but who gave the order? JC: 53:42 Well, I think there is some frustration out there. Because people are looking for justice. And they certainly do not feel that justice was served here. And yeah, it would be great to find out who gave the order. And it would also be great to maybe hold some of the guardsmen that shot indiscriminately into the crowd to make them accountable. But there is so much time that is gone by, you know, we are beyond the 50-year mark, that I am just [inaudible] that that we are never really going to get to the bottom of that. And it is just going to be something that is always going to be a question mark out there. And unfortunately, I do not think there is ever going to be an answer. You know, everyone kind of has this hope that there will be some guardsmen on their deathbed that is going to share the some story about what actually happened. But short of that, I do not think we are going to really get to the bottom of what actually happened. SM: 54:59 You were there. And you know some of the things that took place, [inaudible] you read the student newspapers, at Kent state the following year when school started again. When you look at the whole that whole period from the 30th of April till when Nixon gave the speech at 9pm, until the killings and the wounding, on the fourth. Who- is that, that is, that is part of our history, is-is an important part of our history. When you look at the (19)60s, what other big major events affected your life? Even before Kent State, and I say, when you look at the, when boomers were young, there was one word that kept coming up over and over again, in my mind, assassination, assassination, bullets, killing. What is the say about our democracy? We lose a President of the United States in (19)63. That is when [crosstalk]. Yes, go ahead. JC: 56:04 Yeah. I think that everyone kind of remembers John F. Kennedy's assassination. I think I was a little too young to totally understand the implications of what had happened, but I do remember my parents being a little fearful, and that the TV was on constantly with the funeral, and all the other proceedings going on. SM: 56:36 And then only- JC: 56:39 The only other highlight, and I am sorry, go ahead Stephen. SM: 56:42 I was just going to say that the course five years later, his brother gets assassinated, as well as the Martin Luther King. And when- JC: 56:49 Yep. SM: 56:49 -when you look at the Jackson State issue, which is important because Kent State students in the group have done a tremendous job of making sure that those who lost their lives there at Jackson State 10 days later are, there was camaraderie between them and the students at Kent State. I admire them so much for this, they are, thatis a lesson for America to reach out because they also had a tragedy. But to lose some- JC: 57:17 Yep. SM: 57:17 -it seemed like the people that our age when the boomers seem to see even when you talk about Jackson State, that was in Jackson, Mississippi and Medgar Evers was killed there in that same year. So it is,- JC: 57:35 Yes. SM: 57:35 -it is, so it is like, we grew up with assassinations, one assassination after another killings, and we are still having a lot of issues. But the tragedy, you know, it is like, I have learned one thing, and Alan said, you know, these were murders at Kent State, quit saying it is a tragedy at Kent State. They were murderers. JC: 57:55 Yeah, yeah. It took me a while to say that I felt that was maybe would turn people off when you discuss it. But Alan is absolutely right. What happened there was, when you think about Dean Kahler, who was shot in the back while laying on the ground, and Sandy Scheuer and others that [inaudible], were just going to class. It was just an indiscriminate shooting. And they are certainly, their lives were not in any kind of danger. And you know, it was just wanton or wanton shooting that which really cannot be explained. SM: 58:46 One of the things that I, I do a lot of reading, and I have heard this for years, and it is in so many books. I know, Tom Grace, I talked to him about this too, is that why Kent State? You know, of all the universities in America with all the major protests, you know, and of course, Ohio State had ma- I went to Ohio State to grad school. So Ohio State had major protests at the very same time, but no one died. And in Ohio University, where I worked in my first job, they were always considered the most liberal campus in Ohio. And they were actually purging students when I was there. Because they were up to 18,000. Then then they were down 1000s. That is why the branch campuses were helping their enrollment, but [crosstalk] but they could they get kind of tired. I think I said this to Alan, when he came to West Chester University, [inaudible] there twice. I am getting tired of hearing this in history books. Why at Kent State, because why not? It is worth I think all the major crises happened at state universities where there seemed to have been tragedies. So-so, you know. JC: 1:00:03 Well, I think I think that if you look at the governor Rhodes, and you look at the burning of the ROTC building, and the mayor of Kent, Mayor Satrom, calling in the National Guard probably prematurely. And, you know, it was just all these things kind of led up to this and the rhetoric that was said, by the governor prior to the weekend. You know, I just think that all of this kind of, unfortunately, fell in place for-for something like that to happen. SM: 1:00:46 I agree. It is the word that we use nowadays is the perfect storm, seemed like the perfect storm. JC: 1:00:54 Yes. SM: 1:00:54 Everything came in. And I, as I was saying to Tom when I interviewed him, you know, I my very first book that I read on Kent State was James Michener's book- it is full of misinformation, it has got, it is incorrect, it is not a very good book. But one thing- [crosstalk] Huh? Is that like, Kent is the hotbed of SDS? Yes. Yeah. And also, he talked about President White. And he is a culprit in this in my view, because I spent my career in higher education, and you have to have a strong president. Yet, not, every university and, and the person, and everything stops, anything that happens on your campus, you have to take responsibility for it, you are in charge. And Tom, Tom was great in terms of explaining what he has historically done in the past of not being there at the time when he needed to be there. And I blame a lot of it on him. If he if he had come- JC: 1:01:56 I am just [inaudible], I am incredulous that he would be out to lunch, off campus, when everyone knew that there was going to be a rally that- SM: 1:02:08 Yes. JC: 1:02:09 -day at noon. He had to have known. SM: 1:02:11 He did, I he should have gotten back. He was away. But he could have gotten back, he certainly could have gotten back before May 4th. And because everything was happening. JC: 1:02:21 You know, I have a feeling if that had been Dr. Beverly Warren, she would have been out there on campus, next to the guards. You know, talking to them, talking to the leaders, the guardsmen, he should have been out there, you know, talking to them and making sure that things did not get out of control. SM: 1:02:48 Yep. JC: 1:02:48 And with him gone. It just gave the military carte blanche to do whatever they wanted. SM: 1:02:56 Yeah, so it is a kind of a combination of everything coming to a head and unfortunately, sadly, it cost lives. JC: 1:03:02 Yeah. SM: 1:03:03 You know, do you have one May 4th comes every year, now I am thinking of involving the remembrance, but even those years that you were not going to the events, does that May four- obviously you have a child born on May 4th. But does that, you feel like it is like April 27, that you are only four, seven days away from that, that that day that help- really had an impact on your life? JC: 1:03:32 Well, it is something that I now that I am retired and I can dwell more on it, yes, I do think about it, anticipate what the significance of the day means and trying to make plans to be there. And, you know, if there is interviews or whatever, to make myself available for that. I think that is the other thing I am trying to do on retirement is there are some Ohio teachers who were teaching May 4th in the classroom to their students, and I have tried to make myself available to talk to these people. And so yes, when May 4th comes around now, you know, there-there is some anticipation towards it and-and what can be done to keep-keep the memory alive. There were times after I was first married and were struggling at work that may 4th came and went and I think about it over lunch hour and that, you know, that might be might be the extent of it. That is it certainly has changed here in the latter years. SM: 1:04:58 Have you had any flashbacks from that day? JC: 1:05:05 No, I cannot say that I have. I have always, like I said, I think, in a weird way, I was fortunate in that I do not recall what happened to me after I was hit. But no, I cannot say that I have any unpleasant flashbacks to it. Sometimes, you know, a lot of people ask me, you know, you were you were shot in front of the metal sculpture, and does it bother you when you walk by that place you were shot? And I guess my answer to that is that, you know, when I went back to camp- I would walk by that spot every day going into Taylor Hall. And if anything, it inspired me saying, Look, you, you were given a second chance here at life, and you need to take advantage of it. SM: 1:06:00 Yep, very positive attitude, that is excellent. Yeah, I have taken pictures of that sculpture, and it has got a hole through it and one spot. So you can see how powerful those bullets were. JC: 1:06:13 Yeah. Imagine that hitting a person. SM: 1:06:16 Yes, I know. The other thing I wanted to mention, because of the I am talking really about the boomer generation of which we are a part, and what the (19)60s were all about, is the fact that we lost so many good people, and but there were a lot of positive things too, along with the negatives. Do you, we are, we are reflecting on now what is going on in America today, with all the great divisions we are having, it is very- I do not think I have ever lived at a time like this. The pandemic does not happen either. But it is everything else has been going on in the news. But when you come here- JC: 1:06:55 Well, I think social media has a lot to do with that. SM: 1:07:02 In terms of what they are what they are-? JC: 1:07:06 Why we are so why we are so divisive, versus maybe 20 years ago. I mean, obviously, every generation, you know, we had the-the war protests and kind of a culture counterculture movement, where there was, you know, our parents, I think we were trying to comprehend what the heck we were doing. But yeah, this seems to be much more, I think with social media, you can kind of anonymously sit back and be very what is the right word, insensitive or cruel. And when you are not talking to somebody face to face. You can, you can say a lot more damaging words, and not feel guilty about it. And yeah, it is, it is very frustrating to see the misinformation. And the how things are taken out of context constantly on social media. SM: 1:08:21 How, there-there came a time with your children, when they probably put two and two together and "Dad, why were you shot, Daddy? Why were you shot?" Trying to explain to them and how do you explain that to a child? As they, and as they get older, what at what juncture did you tell the whole story? Because, you know, they are, when they are young, they do not kind of grasp things. JC: 1:08:47 Yeah, I do not think we really talked too much about it until they were maybe in junior high, or you know, about that age. And I think the other thing that kind of came into play was probably like, whenever there was like a pivotal anniversary, like the 10th or the 15th or 20th anniversary, the press tends to come out of the woodwork and want to interview you and they want to do newspaper articles and they want to do you know, maybe a little local TV segment or something. So obviously that became apparent to them. So, you know, we did explain to them what had happened. And, you know, it is interesting, we were going through my daughter's paperwork from you know, my wife saves everything she will not, you know, if it is kid related, she keeps it. And there was a paper she had done probably in eighth or ninth grade for English class about the Kent State shootings. And I was, I was pretty impressed with her insight and being able to describe the events and what-what had happened, you know, without, you know, from her point of view from a younger generation not being there. SM: 1:10:25 That is excellent. I only got a couple more questions here. One of them is the, what- two, it is a two-part question. What are the major lessons to be learned from the killings at Kent State and Jackson State? And what are the, and the second part of the question is, what are the lessons from the (19)60s and (19)70s in your opinion? As we pass on, we are now we are talking we are now three generation starting of the third generation beyond boomer that are being born today. JC: 1:11:05 Well, there is lessons to be learned. I guess the question is, are we really learning anything from it? You can draw some parallels, I think, when you go back to May 4th, and the rhetoric and I am talking about Governor Rhodes' inflammatory talk about students being worse than Brownshirts. And, you know, I think, that might have been in reference to communists, communist, I do not remember, but-but anyway, you know, this kind of inflammatory discourse, which then leads to violence. And I still, unfortunately, think we are seeing it today when people say things, to inflame groups, and then violence occurs. And so there is some frustration, because you wonder, are we really learning from these lessons? Are we learning that you know, gun violence, escalates, when followed by angry words and discourse? And so, the lessons, you know, are, I suppose, that you know, we need to pause and look at where we are going with some of this, and, and try to de-escalate situations, versus escalate them. And we are even seeing it today where rather than a calm voice, and trying to resolve a tense situation, things get ramped up, and then we have an unfortunate shooting, and it can even be police that are doing the shooting, because rather than try to de-escalate a situation, things are getting ramped. So, you know, unfortunately, I see some parallels to what is happening today, to what-what happened back there. Your second part about the (19)60s and (19)70s. I think that there was an attempt by our generation to try to break from the norm, and create a more loving and caring society, one that that takes care of its own. Unfortunately, I think that has not happened. And it is kind of fallen on deaf ears. And we have a lot of social issues today that if we showed more compassion and more understanding, I think we could start to resolve some of the- these issues, but instead, everything has become political. And it just seems like any issue today, even when we are talking about science, somehow, we end up with two sides to a story. And it baffles me on some of this. Where, where, you know, we are just trying to take care of people, or we are trying to do what is best for the common good and somehow this has to become a political issue, and it truly is sad that we have gotten to that point. So you know, I think we started out in the (19)60s and (19)70s, very idealistic, we were going to change the world. But here we are, you know, 40, 50 years later, and not much has changed. SM: 1:15:48 [inaudible] I am going to end with this. I am going to ask you to talk to someone who is going to be listening to this 20, 30 and 40 years from now, and this is January 26 2022. If there is any lessons that you yourself can give to the future youth of America, in terms of, based on the experiences of what happened at Kent State and Jackson State, what would that be in terms of advice? And one thing I want to add to this, John, you have already mentioned it, you cannot forget your history, you got to know your history and where we came from. JC: 1:16:29 Absolutely. SM: 1:16:29 Yeah, not and I am really worried about, and this has been not just my generation, boomers the generations that followed, their lack of knowledge of history is amazing. I am shocked, I work with young people. They do not know the Vietnam War. I had, we have had people tell me the Vietnam wars before World War Two, how do they get through high school that way? And so, it is the, it is the knowledge of history. But what would your advice be to future generations with respect to this historic event, Kent State and Jackson State? JC: 1:17:03 Well, I think my, my advice would be, is when you look at history, I remember, in my history classes, it is more than just memorizing dates and times and when-when these things happened, you have to try to put yourself in the time and in the place, and what people's mindsets were, I think it is more important to understand the events leading up to what happened at May 4th, versus, you know, trying to remember that it happened in the (19)70s, or whatever. And if you are a college student, and you are listening to this, try to imagine yourself being on a college campus, and being confronted with the military, with guns and halftracks, and helicopters, with them preventing you from saying what you are, what you want to say. So your freedom is being challenged by powers to be in and by your political system. And you need to just visualize what would you do as a student, if you were confronted with this, and this is what we had to face. That we did not ask for the military to be on campus. We felt that we had a right to be on our campus, our campus was open, and to be assaulted in the way that that crowd was, to be shot indiscriminately and then listen to the hatred and the vitriol that came out of the country as they came out of the state, towards the students who had done nothing more than congregate on campus, to present their political views, and think about how you would react if you were confronted in that in that type of situation. SM: 1:19:50 Beautifully said. Beautifully said. John, on that note, I want to end the interview. And I want to say thank you very much for taking part are in this. I will say this, I hope to meet you. I am going to be at Kent State on the fourth. I will be there probably the second through the fourth. I love the walk that walk. JC: 1:20:11 Yeah, I am going to, even if you know that from what I am understanding, there is some uncertainty as to whether they are going to do something because of COVID. SM: 1:20:21 Right. JC: 1:20:21 And but I have missed two years there. And I think I am going to be there no matter what, even if it is just unofficial. SM: 1:20:31 Same here. So, I look, we will be in touch and I am, I am going to turn this off. Thank you very much. Do not leave me yet. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Cleary IIIF Item Metadata UUID 54588851-e5d0-466b-886d-67416baa6cb3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b9a0c1f3e8629426db91c13d7b438b05.mp3 18c14c313585eb23dcbbe58fcb8581b7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-11-08 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Ellis Year of Graduation 1970 Biographical Text John Ellis acted as president of the longtime family-owned company Nelson Ellis Furniture in Binghamton. As a Harpur student, he was involved in the Outward Bound program. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Ellis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ellis, John ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource John Ellis acted as president of the longtime family-owned company Nelson Ellis Furniture in Binghamton. As a Harpur student, he was involved in the Outward Bound program. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-11-08 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context John Ellis.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-11-08 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 38:59 minutes IIIF Item Metadata UUID 6b87342d-7733-4e98-ae04-520bac72a364 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/170dd7969ba33a631ded4eeb72cc0ee6.jpg bad2da628bdcdb8f605698446383d94a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b479aa5fba4ab241b6b90166a6ffe6a3.mp3 30b8f7a08b8319ea585c7c932d786244 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Filo Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John Filo is a photographer who took the picture of the 1970 Kent State shootings, in which a 14 year old girl grieves over the body of a dead young man. This picture won him the Pulitzer prize. He is now a photography director for CBS in NY."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">John Filo is a photographer who took the picture of the 1970 Kent State shootings, in which a 14-year-old girl grieves over the body of a dead young man. This picture won him the Pulitzer Prize. He is now a photography director for CBS in NY. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Vietnam memorial; Baby boom generation; Communism; Vietnam Veterans; Jane Fonda; Timothy Leary; Lyndon B. Johnson; Black Power; Tommie Smith; George Wallace; Benjamin Spock."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Vietnam War; Vietnam memorial; Baby boom generation; Communism; Vietnam Veterans; Jane Fonda; Timothy Leary; Lyndon B. Johnson; Black Power; Tommie Smith; George Wallace; Benjamin Spock. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27:48 Subject LCSH Photographers; Kent State Shootings, Kent, Ohio, 1970; Awards—United States; Filo, John--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Filo Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: Not Dated --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:03): Okay, go right ahead. JF (00:04): But screen token, everyone was appalled. Everyone was appalled that young people get their news from the Daily Show, the Colbert Report, or listen to the late-night talk people, and they were joking sarcasm, with the powers that be. But, you go and watch it. And you go, they speak way more truth, than they speak comedy and that what maybe is why it is funny. SM (00:33): Right. A couple final quick questions here. Why in your opinion, did the Vietnam War end? JF (00:41): Why did it end? SM (00:41): Yes. JF (00:45): I think people were just tired of it. I mean, why it ended is, there was no good reason to continue it. I mean, it was a civil war going on in that country that we were trying to get involved with. At some point, they realized, communists were not going to get in votes and canoe on over. SM (01:08): Do you think- JF (01:09): See, I mean, I was brought up on that domino effect- SM (01:11): Right. Yep. Yep. JF (01:12): ... in grade school. Well, if you let this country fall, then this country was going to fall, then this country was going to fall and this country was going to fall. But at the same time, communism was losing its influence too, in the world. I do not know. Why it ended? All I know is I was glad it ended. It took too long to end. SM (01:35): Do you feel college students played an important part? If you were to pick between one of these two, college students and protests on college campuses or Middle America, when they finally realized the war was not worth it because their sons and daughters were coming home in caskets. JF (01:53): Well, I do not know so much in caskets, but you had many, once again, I think it is many different levels. Six people, a long time to get a change going on. They do not want to hear it from just one voice. But I think, did you have that friendly fire book? SM (02:14): Yes. JF (02:14): Out about the same time. SM (02:16): Yes. JF (02:18): There were scandalous stories about the bodies that were coming back. Some of them were filled with, in the thoracic cavity, being filled with drugs. There was a drug ring. And there was all kind of nasty little, it was not a generational story anymore. It was just like, and so if we win, what happens? We have an air base closer to... And then again, it is like, you have these submarines patrolling the seas, communist and US. They could wipe out the earth how many times over. It gets to a point where it is just like, okay. And there were leaders long before Kennedy that said, could never get into ground war in Asia. It is an old military thing, we said that. SM (03:18): Has the wall itself in Washington D.C., which I know you visited. How important has that been toward healing the boomer generation? Or is it mostly just the vets and their families? JF (03:32): I think it affects all of us at certain times. But I never understood. But I know there were people that did it, but when I never understood this part, people I knew, I do not think anyone was ever upset at a soldier that they were seeing. You hear the stories. I came back and I was spit upon, as a killer of Vietnamese babies. Where I came from, I think everyone had compassion for the soldier. I think we were all realizing that the soldier was just part of the bigger problem. I mean, because under orders you were drafted, you had to go. And I think this war in Iraq, could have been over too, had there been a draft. But what they have done is send people back, three and four times. SM (04:22): How important has music been in the lives of Boomers and in your eyes, who are the artists you feel shaped the generation, including the songs that had the greatest impact? JF (04:34): Yeah, music was very important. Music was sort of like the thing you could interpret and listen to. And there were still obviously different styles, but I think it all started, for me, I think it started with the folk movement, bodied finally by Bob Dylan. And then you had your other songs, other rock bands that brew against war, killing. I mean, that was a big part of that music of that generation. SM (05:11): When you look at some of the musicians, whether it be Joan Baez or Bob Dylan, Phil Oaks, Pete Seeger, Arlo Guthrie, they were popular on college campuses and also because they were activists. So there was that mentality, and they lived their whole lives that way they can continue. Some have passed on and some continue. Richie Havens that whole group. A last question before the general things is, when the best history books are written, and what do you think the lasting legacy of the boomer generation will be? JF (05:50): Well, I do not know. SM (05:50): And that is probably 50 years, after the boomer generation is in their eighties. JF (06:00): I do not know. I honestly do not know. I cannot think of any other generation, other than the roaring (19)20s that you remember having an influence on culture so much. I honestly do not know. I have not really given that much thought. I would think that the fact that it did help America, I mean, it is a very historic time. From coming up through the Civil Rights Movement and wars will somehow always be with us, it seems like, in some small or large aspect. It will not be on that scale that Great Wars were, but it seems to me. But I think within the generation of seeing civil rights and ending with a black president and some shifts that are not yet determined. SM (07:09): And he is still considered a boomer. He is a young boomer. And then of course Bill Clinton was a boomer and so was George Bush. JF (07:16): I mean, I think, that is what it takes. There was a quote somewhere, when [inaudible] Kennedy, [inaudible] or was it Martin Luther. Someone says, how long do you think it would take for America to have a viable black candidate? And I think the quote was back in the six- 40 years. SM (07:43): I think it was Dr. King. JF (07:43): Dr. King. SM (07:44): I think it was Dr. King. So you might have said, in one of his speeches. JF (07:47): 40 years. SM (07:47): Yeah, and it might have been- JF (07:47): It is almost pathetic, almost. SM (07:57): Yeah. I am going to mention just some names here and just get quick responses. Your thoughts on these people, these are personalities from the era. Tom Hayden? JF (08:06): All right. He was a West Coast leader and then became politician. I do not have any comments. SM (08:09): Jane Fonda? JF (08:19): Jane always liked acting and same things. I think she was misused too by the... SM (08:27): Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the hippies? JF (08:30): Yeah. Yeah. I think they sort of took it the other way. Took it to the other side. SM (08:36): Timothy Leary? JF (08:39): Yeah. No way. Yeah. These are people I did not... You would look at and you would go, wow. SM (08:46): Okay. How about Richard Nixon? JF (08:48): You would go wow there too. I mean, I remember him involved in, what was it? Was not there a big scandal in the (19)50s? They found the film in the pumpkin. SM (08:57): Yeah, Checkers. JF (08:59): Checkers. SM (09:00): He had to give his Checkers speech. I am not sure if Checkers is up there in heaven with him. How about Spiro Agnew? JF (09:13): Yeah, battering A bombs of, they get to visit. Yeah, there it is. You are a typical politician. SM (09:16): Yep. JF (09:16): Do not be looking at me, criticizing, even though I am doing something totally illegal. SM (09:21): Eugene McCarthy? JF (09:24): Another leader. SM (09:28): And George McGovern? JF (09:30): George McGovern, same way. World War II veteran. Who heard young voices. I mean, yeah, just could not get it together. He was a real generational candidate. SM (09:53): John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy? JF (09:53): Yeah. As I get older, my feelings are more with Bobby. John, I was too young with. Definitely Bobby, I think. SM (10:02): Lyndon Johnson? JF (10:04): I am sorry. SM (10:04): Lyndon Johnson? JF (10:05): I Know. I think that man, considering his background, I think he did a lot of great things for the country. I mean, that whole great society, is not so much that, but his homework and the civil rights. A surprising person, as far as I am concerned. I would have guessed him to be so mainline politically. So non-controversial. SM (10:31): How about Robert McNamara? JF (10:43): Well, there we go. Yeah. How many years later, apologized. SM (10:44): Mm-hmm. How about the black power, the term black power and the people like Kiwi Newton, Bobby Seal, Eldridge Cleaver, that group? JF (10:52): Well, I think, from being a white person, I think we needed these people to be like, they were pointers. Wow. These people have a lot of, [inaudible] hate. But then you had to, they used to made you find out the reason why. You had to look at the condition of [inaudible]. SM (11:17): And as a fact, and as a photographer, you are the only person I am asking this to. What was your thought of that Tommy Smith picture with him fist raised and John Carlos? JF (11:26): I thought it was a great photo. I thought it was a great photo, it was a very rogue photo. That is the point. They knew the consequences. They knew that they were going to be severely criticized, not ostracized. I think they were. SM (11:45): Yeah. We had Tommy on the campus and I think he knew what was coming, by doing it. George Wallace? JF (11:55): Another drum beater. Oh, wow. I remember, I even met Orville Faubus. SM (12:05): You did? JF (12:05): One on one. He was one of the nice guys. And then you realize, I was not going to let them come into Little Rock. SM (12:14): How about Ronald Reagan? JF (12:15): I do not know. He was a great communicator. SM (12:15): Danielle Ellsberg? JF (12:15): There is another one standing up for [inaudible] rights, right? SM (12:15): Yep. Benjamin Spock? JF (12:35): I got to meet him too and spend some time with him. SM (12:37): Oh, you are lucky. JF (12:38): He is a guy that changed a lot of attitudes, changed a lot of thinking, and boy he got blanks against the war. Just destruction. Longshoreman held up his sailboat delivery and, oh my God. SM (12:56): How about the Berrigan- JF (12:57): Could meet a nicer man. SM (12:59): Phillip and Daniel Berrigan? JF (13:10): Same thing. Had to do what they had to do. SM (13:10): And then some of the women leaders, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan? JF (13:15): Fantastic. What a great thing. What a great thing, pointing out sexism stuff. You just do not realize all this was going on, in the (19)50s. SM (13:34): Barry Goldwater? JF (13:38): Do not remember him. Just, little too conservative. SM (13:45): These are just some of the terms that boomers will remember as they grew up. Tet, T-E-T. You know what Tet was? JF (13:51): Yeah. SM (13:53): What is your thoughts on Tet? JF (13:55): Tet Offensive? SM (13:55): Yes. JF (13:55): Yeah. SM (13:55): That was (19)68. JF (13:58): Wow. Well, that is when a lot of the, are you thinking that is when a lot of the people that were for the war started thinking, "Oh, I do not know"? SM (14:08): It was around that timeframe. JF (14:09): Yeah. SM (14:10): Watergate? JF (14:15): Yeah. That is what you said. Boy, those guys are just power crazy. They probably have the election long ago, but they are going to make sure. SM (14:23): Hippies? JF (14:23): Yeah, hippies were, they are fun. SM (14:30): And how about the yippies? JF (14:32): Oh, the yippies were even stranger. The hippies, they actually believe what they did for a little while. SM (14:39): How about the counterculture? That term, the counterculture? JF (14:44): Yeah. That sort of, you realize you did not have to, I think at a time it had to be known as a counterculture, but then they realized, for you to change thing, you had to be sort of absorbed in the mainstream with countercultures dots. But by saying counterculture, it is sort of, it puts you in another uniform. Like being a hippie or being a yippie. You realize if you are going to make changes, you got sort of dress like them. SM (15:15): Students For Democratic? JF (15:17): I was more impressed with boomers that did go to bat, put on a three-piece suit, go and argue. SM (15:24): What were your favorite clothes of the counterculture? JF (15:27): Favorite clothes? SM (15:28): Yeah. JF (15:29): I do not- SM (15:29): Is there something that stuck out? Everybody heard about the [inaudible] jacket early on. JF (15:33): Well, my favorite or favorite to wear? SM (15:36): No, just the favorite clothes that you liked. JF (15:38): Oh, I think I was impressed with the, since I never had any hips, I was always impressed with hip-huggers and flair pants. And I said, "Man, I must look really cool if I put them on and look like some circus clown." Because I did not have thin legs, thin body to where fashion, the fashion hung. All I did was flare pants pointed to my flaws. SM (16:11): Woodstock? JF (16:13): Yeah. I never went, but it was the idea of it. I was like, wow, you are going to go, it sounds miserable. SM (16:21): Well, a lot of people cleanly were there, that probably were not. JF (16:23): I know. I know. It is like, what is his name, scored his hundred-point game. The NBA. It is like Kent State too. It is like how many people said they were there? SM (16:44): Oh, that is true. That is true. Vietnam veterans against the war? JF (16:44): All right. Yeah. I think they have probably achieved a lot more than anyone gives them credit for. Especially when, you actually had decorated heroes. SM (16:56): Were there any books of the era that stood out amongst any others? Any written books? JF (17:03): Wow. I am trying to think what was... You mean the sort of went pop or sort of- SM (17:12): It could be authors or people who wrote. JF (17:17): All I remember is the new, I mean, everyone read Tolkien, but then Castaneda came along on a separate reality and the native Mexican drug, American kind of drugs off the land kind of thing. Yeah. SM (17:34): How about the favorite movies of the era? JF (17:44): Oh, geez. There was a lot of movies I think it was, that made nothing, what was it? Living at the Ridge or Plaza or something. SM (17:56): There was The Graduate, which was a big one. JF (17:57): So The Graduate. Yeah, it was a... SM (18:00): Midnight Cowboy and that whole group. JF (18:02): Right. SM (18:05): See, anything else here? I have John Dean down here too, only because he was part of the Watergate group. He is the guy that spilled the beans, supposedly. I guess that is about it. I cannot... Oh, communes? JF (18:19): Communes. Yeah. That was just like, yeah, I knew people that went to a few and they go, "Man, it just turned into, it always turns into ugly human center." It seemed like. I mean, I am amazed that some people put out for years. And then someone told me, there are still a few in existence, I do not know if it is going on. SM (18:46): Yeah, I think George Bush is in charge of one. The only thing I am going to mention in terms of the books that were very popular, the two are, Greening of America, if you remember that book? Which was Charles Reich and then the Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. And then Tom Wolf was a big, popular guy during that period too. I guess he still is. Are there any questions that you thought I was going to ask and did not ask? JF (19:22): Not really. Not really. SM (19:23): Nope. And what do you think the lasting legacy at Kent State will be? JF (19:30): Why? SM (19:32): Okay. JF (19:33): I do not know. That sort of needs a guarded, it almost needs a guarded position. I guess, it is whatever groups want have define it as, but I think the legacy for me is that, is there a way to have free speech in this country and in a time of maybe disapproval, without it ever coming to violence? SM (20:04): Mm-hmm. As a person like myself who just worked almost 30 years in higher ed. By the way, I just retired. JF (20:15): Wow. SM (20:15): I had retired to write my book and then I am going back to work because I put this off. I took early retirement so that I could finish this book and then write it and then go back and do the things I want to do, beyond. I forget what I was going to ask here, the final question. Oh no, I lost my train of thought. JF (20:35): Keep going. That happens to me too. SM (20:35): Golly. It was a final- JF (20:40): I mean, you could call me in a couple days and I will say I should have never said that. I should have said that. SM (20:43): Yeah. Well, the question I was going to ask is this, because it goes back to the activism. I think universities, this is just Steve McKiernan I am thinking of writing about it because I have firsthand experiences, not only myself, but others that have worked at other universities. I think there is a fear of activism on university campuses and I am not meaning volunteerism because I think the administrators who are running universities today are mostly boomers. Or down the road will be the children of boomers. And there is a fear of, they will have the memories of what happened in the (19)60s and they will always be out there supporting it and saying they support it. But there is much more controls and fear. Your thoughts on that? Because today's parents, when they send their kids to college, do not want disruption of their sons or daughter's education because they are paying good money and they want their sons and daughters to get a degree. And so there is a fear of disruption and if disruption happens, I will take my son or daughter away. So I do not know. JF (21:44): Yeah, I mean it is, I remember going to all these universities with my daughter. She just finished her freshman year at UMass Amherst and it is like everyone talks about her class. In four years, these will be the people that help you get jobs. And in other words, there was a big strong commitment that you get on this conveyor belt and you are going to get off it in four years. And you are all going to get on it right now and you are all going to get off of it in four years. There is no, well, if it takes you five. The packages are all same. There is your junior year abroad, there is this and there is that, and there is there, go do this in Central America or something. Yeah. There was no room for question of self-discovery thing. Hit your wagon up and we will on hit you in four years. SM (22:54): Yeah. Because in the (19)60s, the boomers, there was a questioning about the IBM mentality of it. And now that does not seem to be, I do not know. JF (23:01): No, there does not seem to be any matter of fact. No one can promise them anything. That is the other thing. There is research grants for government work maybe. And that is about it. And I mean, I am talking to people that are graduating from Columbia, that pay big money to graduate, go to the journalism school. And I am saying, that is great. Now you are going to take a job that pays half that, it cost you to get the degree. Yeah. There is all sorts of free adjustment that have to be made. Now all of a sudden science and the engineering is back in good grace. But on the other hand, I am still, what do we do for a plumber and what are we doing? I mean, I am not saying whatever, but here is my daughter and I said, "What did you just signed up for?" Psychology, but I think I want to move into environmental science. SM (24:10): Yeah. One thing today's college students do not do is, they do not question the money that is coming in or going out from the university. They do not even know what is going in and coming out. So whereas a lot of the students in my era, you are era, questioned that. JF (24:22): Yeah. Absolutely. SM (24:24): I had spoken to Mary when she was at Kent State and last time, and I promised to send her pictures that I took, not as nice as yours, but I sent her the pictures and she was going to interview me, but she has not correspondence since she got my pictures. So maybe she does not want to be a part of the project after all. She is a very private person. JF (24:48): [inaudible] but she always sort of works through. Have you talked to Gregory Payne? SM (24:54): Who? JF (24:55): In Emerson University. He is the one that sort of got it together the first time and she sort of uses him as a sounding board. SM (25:03): What is his name? JF (25:04): Dr. Gregory Payne. P-A-Y-N-E. SM (25:09): Okay. JF (25:09): And he showed up at Kenny. He looked like- SM (25:12): Oh, he said the fitting blonde hair. JF (25:12): Yeah. SM (25:17): Yeah. Well see, when I saw her, she gave me her email and I emailed her. She wanted my pictures and then she said, "I will probably do the interview." And then I sent the pictures and she would not even respond if she got the pictures. So I do not know. JF (25:29): I do not know what is going on. SM (25:33): Yeah, but anyways. Well that is it. JF (25:34): Okay. SM (25:35): Thank you. JF (25:37): So if there is any more questions, just call me back or let me know. SM (25:39): Will do. Well, I interviewed Alan, when he was on our campus many years ago, but I got to, I have never really finished my interview with him. So I might interview him. I would like to interview his sister, Chick. JF (25:50): Yeah. Oh, Chick is great too. SM (25:50): Yeah. But Mr. [inaudible], I am going to call you John. JF (25:55): Yeah. SM (25:55): Thank you very much. That picture was a very important part of my life. And I know you have probably heard that from a lot of people, but that picture touched the lives of college students that you do not even know and you will never know. So you need to know how important that picture was in my life because I went into higher education as a career because of what was happening at Kent State and other universities. So thank you for being the great photographer that you are. And I want to thank you again for the time you spent today answering my questions. I am meeting with a professor, up in [inaudible] college, to be able to help me with the transcribing of all these. So you will sort see the transcription before it is ever going to print. JF (26:39): Okay. But you saying on a different day I might have different answers too. It just seems like, as I get older, I am affected by what is going on around you now. You know what I mean? SM (26:48): Yeah. Well that whole thing of the (19)60s and (19)70s always affected my life. JF (26:53): Oh, yeah. SM (26:54): Well to the day I go to my grave. JF (26:58): Throw up. I mean, you actually questioned us already. I can imagine growing up in the (19)50s and... SM (27:00): Oh, yes. JF (27:03): I am sorry. I am not saying that was a bad time to grow up, but it was just, there was so much that was just accepted. SM (27:08): Yep. Yet during that very same period, our parents loved us so much. JF (27:14): Great. SM (27:14): And they wanted to give us so much. And sometimes I go back and say, "Geez, those were, not knowing what was going on in the world and being innocent as an elementary school kid." Probably like you were. JF (27:27): Yeah. SM (27:27): You had great memories being with your parents. So anyways. Well you have a great day. JF (27:34): All right Scott. And call back me anytime you got any other- SM (27:36): Steve. JF (27:37): If I failed to answer them. SM (27:38): Yep. JF (27:39): Okay. SM (27:40): Thanks a lot. Bye. JF (27:42): Take care. Bye. Good luck. SM (27:42): Yep, thanks. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Filo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Filo, John ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Photographers; Kent State Shootings, Kent, Ohio, 1970; Awards—United States; Filo, John--Interviews Description An account of the resource John Filo is a photographer who took the picture of the 1970 Kent State shootings, in which a 14 year old girl grieves over the body of a dead young man. This picture won him the Pulitzer prize. He is now a photography director for CBS in NY. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.51 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 27:48 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4d2c4734fa58af86dbe533d28c9d04bc.jpg ff78c5b91e27e6ff0482245b4868c94c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e8bde2fa588015f45463756d67755f93.mp3 6c2f5d77b4cd0aa69245bba8815f0b46 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Lewis, 1940 February 21 - 2020 July 17 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John Lewis is a politician and was a civil rights leader. He is the U.S. Representative for Georgia's 5th congressional district, serving since 1987. Lewis has a Bachelor's degree in Religion and Philosophy from Fisk University, and he is a graduate of the American Baptist Theological Seminary. He was the keynote speaker at the historic March on Washington in August 1963."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">John Lewis was a politician and a civil rights leader. He was the U.S. Representative for Georgia's 5th congressional district, serving from 1987 until his death in 2020. Lewis had a Bachelor's degree in Religion and Philosophy from Fisk University, and he was a graduate of the American Baptist Theological Seminary. He was the keynote speaker at the historic March on Washington in August 1963. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:28 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"The nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Questioning authority; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Vietnam War; Environmental issues; the Environmental Movement; Dr. Benjamin Spock; Berrigan Brothers; Timothy Leary."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305}}">The nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Questioning authority; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Vietnam War; Environmental issues; the Environmental Movement; Dr. Benjamin Spock; Berrigan Brothers; Timothy Leary. Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Lewis, John, 1940 February 21--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Lewis Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John Lewis is a politician and was a civil rights leader. He is the U.S. Representative for Georgia's 5th congressional district, serving since 1987. Lewis has a Bachelor's degree in Religion and Philosophy from Fisk University, and he is a graduate of the American Baptist Theological Seminary. He was the keynote speaker at the historic March on Washington in August 1963."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">John Lewis was a politician and a civil rights leader. He was the U.S. Representative for Georgia's 5th congressional district, serving from 1987 until his death in 2020. Lewis had a Bachelor's degree in Religion and Philosophy from Fisk University, and he was a graduate of the American Baptist Theological Seminary. He was the keynote speaker at the historic March on Washington in August 1963. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lewis, John, 1940 February 21 - 2020 July 17 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Lewis, John, 1940 February 21--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.80 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 41:28 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/efe8765bb6f08aeb73e174d64a397a2a.jpg 7cf0040f5b0e5e71fed8340105ccb07a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7408df7b8256f4f5206599cf616b0257.mp3 23faea88a00e74e06173990854e5de75 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2003-11-25 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Morris Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John Morris, a native of Downingtown, PA, joined the Army Security Agency in 1965 and served two years in Vietnam. Following Vietnam, he was stationed at Fort Wolters, Texas, to train other operators in route to Vietnam until 1969. John Morris is a life member and active with the Vietnam Veterans of America. He is also a life member of the Veterans of Foreign War and the Disabled American Veterans. He received the Chapel of the Four Chaplain’s Legion of Honor Award."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4487,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"15":"Arial"}">John Morris, a native of Downingtown, PA, joined the Army Security Agency in 1965 and served two years in Vietnam. Following Vietnam, he was stationed at Fort Wolters, Texas, to train other operators in route to Vietnam until 1969. John Morris is a life member and active with the Vietnam Veterans of America. He is also a life member of the Veterans of Foreign War and the Disabled American Veterans. He received the Chapel of the Four Chaplain’s Legion of Honor Award. Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Veterans; Bill Clinton; Watergate; Dwight Eisenhower; George Bush; Dr. \\nMartin Luther King Jr.; Anti-war movement; Lyndon Johnson; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; Muhammad Ali; Baby boom generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Veterans; Bill Clinton; Watergate; Dwight Eisenhower; George Bush; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Anti-war movement; Lyndon Johnson; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; Muhammad Ali; Baby boom generation. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 230:02 Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Interviews; Morris, John--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Morris Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 20 November 2003 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: And yeah, I tested this beforehand. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and when you were young, what is the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of that period? JM: With the question? I will answer the draft. Okay. The draft was something that was always there hanging over my head from the time I left high school until the time I was finally drafted. And it sort of controlled a lot of things that happened to me. For example, it was hard to get a job because you might get drafted. It was hard to start a relationship because you might get drafted. So that would be the first thing to come to my mind. The draft itself. SM: Do you think that was also on the minds of many of your peers? JM: No, absolutely. SM: In terms of their futures? JM: Well, and of course back in those days a lot of guys forced their way into college just to stay out from under the draft for some period of time, just to get some relief from it because it is always there. And you always knew who was being drafted that week or that month and where you stood in line to be drafted. How many months did you have before it would be your turn? SM: Do you remember what your number was? JM: Oh, I was before numbers. SM: Oh, you were before the numbers. JM: Before the numbers, yeah. SM: Okay. JM: Numbers were for wimps. Come On. SM: Okay, well, I remember the numbers. JM: Yeah, no, I was in the service when the number thing started. SM: One of the things about the boomer generation, which is often defined as individuals born between (19)46 and (19)64, some people say there are people born between (19)42 and 1960, give or take a couple years. But when you look at the boomer generation, in recent years there has been a lot of criticism of this generation of 70 million for the breakdown of some of the values in our society and our culture. And I would like your thoughts on people who make those kinds of comments on that particular generation. And of course they are making comments on the drugs and a lot of different things. JM: They are mostly right. We were the most pampered generation up to our time. Our parents, who we now refer to as the greatest generation, fought a war and depression and did not have any of the benefits we have and gave them to us. And we turned around and acted as though they were some sort of birthright. So we, the group that you are referring to, the boomers, of which I am a point man since I was born in (19)45, we were spoiled. We really were. We did not know about hunger. We did not know what it meant to have to get up and help around the farm and things like that. And in a sense, we probably had it too easy and drugs became a passage for us. Most people of my age smoked marijuana, perhaps just things that were quite a bit harder. I believe we almost all drank. So we were out for a good time and we were not very mature. So yes, they were right. SM: Do you think a lot of this stuff has been passed on to their children? Because right now what you are seeing on college campuses and all over America is the children of boomers have been in college for a lot of years. Now we are starting to see the very beginning of grandchildren of boomers coming, although it is still mostly the children of boomers. What sort of an influence do you feel that they have had on their children in terms of not only these issues dealing with our culture, but involvement in caring about America, but most involvement in voting and things like that? JM: Well, I am probably one of the luckiest people. My children are great. They have turned into two very sparkling young adults. So I can only speak from a very narrow point of view and I am lucky in that their friends also fall into that category. So I see mostly the good of the younger generation. And I think that is mostly the majority of the younger generation. And this newer crowd seems far more levelheaded than that X generation that came between the boomers and the new generation. And this newer crowd is, I will say from 18 through 25, seem to have their act together at a very young age. I am encouraged, but also, again, I see a very small segment of that grouping. SM: It is always hard to generalize an entire generation of 70 million. But I think the individuals that have been making these comments over the years have been people like George Will. And he always likes to get a jab at the Boomers whenever he can. I know Newt Gingrich had his time when he made commentaries, yet he was a boomer himself. JM: Yeah. SM: So there is a lot of thoughts on this particular thing. Have you changed at all in terms of your thoughts on the boomers over time? What were your thoughts of your generation at the time you were young and here it is now, believe it or not, 30 plus years hence. Have you changed your opinions on your generation over time or are they still the same? JM: Well, at the time when we were younger, say high school, mostly what I feel we felt was pressure. We looked at our parents as our role models, promptly decided that was not who we wanted to be and yet did not know how to go out and forge a new way. And we did find a way that we may call those the (19)60s, especially the late (19)60s. I think we turned everything upside down during this period of time looking for a way to become anything other than our parents. Now, looking back on that, that was again part of our selfishness. We decided we had to make our mark. And even today I think we are still doing that same thing because we are changing healthcare, we are changing retirement, all the other things. And I guess it is because of the great numbers that we have and you move that many people around, things change. Especially if they wanted them to change. SM: All right. That leads into something about one of the most unique things about the generation is its size. There has never been anything like it before, whether 65 to 70 million is the count most people give to the generation. Is there anything that is unique to this generation beyond its size? Because obviously its size stands out. JM: Yeah, selfishness there, both individually and collectively. And I say that and I put myself in that category. I was selfish. I still look at everything and think how does it affect me? How's the best going to be in my favor? Things like that. And I think that is be part and parcel of being a boomer. Yes. Other people are that way who are not boomers, but I think we pretty much set the stage for that or gave them the role model. But again, selfishness. SM: Thing is, a lot of the people our age and boomers as a whole used to always say amongst themselves when they are young that we are the most feeling, that we are the most unique generation in history because we are going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. We are going to end racism, sexism, homophobia. We are going to end war, we are going to have peace, help the poor, and all these other things. Well, if selfishness in your thought is number one, what happened? Because a lot of the people got involved in the causes to help others. JM: And I think they got disillusioned because they had a very low threshold for that sort of thing, that they could not get instant results through gratification. They just moved along. That is not to demean those folks that stayed in it for the long run. More credit to them. But going back to your question, yeah, well, we wanted to change all those things and we have not done a whole lot of good about it. And those things still exist today and probably will for far too long a period of time. SM: Looking at the generation now and kind of looking at characteristics, both positive, negative, if you were to list, and you have already talked about selfishness, but if you are going to list some of the negatives and some of the positives, what would they be? JM: I think part and parcel we are a very creative generation. I think a lot of the inventions we now take for granted came from our generation. That is definitely a positive. I think we had a work ethic taught to us by our parents that we continued. I think we picked some of the good out of the greatest generation and kept it going forward. That is one of them. The negative thing would be, I am not really certain there is a large number of us who are active in controlling our governments, both in the local and national levels. I think the ones that are in that are the ones that would have always been political, whatever generation they were born to. A large number of us get apathetic about things. It is that old fa- JM: Large number as get apathetic about things. It is that whole thing again, we wanted to make such a change in the world, at least in our country. And then when it could not happen, we thought, What the heck. Cannot be done? If we cannot do it this generation, then it just cannot be done. And we became that apathetic. It has been a fun group to be involved with. I think humor has been cranked up quite a bit since we took over the reins. I think industry and commerce and all business has changed quite a bit simply because we were in there now pulling the strings. We were the power seats. We were the guys in their (19)50s that are controlling everything. And I think for the betterment of business everywhere. And I think some of the things you see in today's workforce that were not there 30 years ago are there because boomers put them there. We were the guys that put in the baby nursery rooms for people of schools. I think were the ones that probably cranked up the healthcare coverage. These are things I do not think you went to work and expected back in 1965. SM: Of course your main negative one was the selfishness aspects. Do you think the generation X, the generation of now, were equally selfish? JM: I think they might have even been more selfish, but they were also... What is the word I am looking for? I think they played angst too much. They wanted to be un-understood, not understood, and they made that their mask. So the selfishness was inner and was in focus and they did not want you to know who they were. SM: Peter Mack was a Painter of that area. He is actually still doing paintings. He is a multi-millionaire now. But back then he was up and coming and struggling and then very successful Artist. He had a painting with words that said, You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful. Your thoughts on that in reference to the boomer generation and the youth of the (19)60s and (19)70s? Because I put them together. Okay. JM: Well, the phraseology you used sounds very (19)60s, does not it? Do your thing, I will do mine. Come together like The Beatles. Well, first thing I hear in there is this overwhelming granting of permission. I am going to let you go ahead and do whatever you want. I am expecting that in return. I am expecting you to grant me the same permission. That is a nice overall way to explain what I think this boomer generation wanted. They wanted to do what they wanted to do and they wanted other people to feel free to do it. And I think the last part of that is a great phrase because if you come together, it is even better. But it is very difficult to go do your thing and then not conflict with other people doing their thing. Example might be, I want to have children, but I do not want to get married. What a burden that puts on society. That is the selfishness I was talking about. And bumping it up a generation, I think that phrase probably would have stuck in their throats. They probably would have said that is my mom and dad's thing. I do not want any part of that. They wanted to be left alone. I do not think necessarily they even thought about their own thing in doing it. Might be way off base, but that is just what I would say. SM: John, when you think of that period, is there any one movement that stands out above all others? And I mean, we are talking about a generation that saw so many movements, the civil rights movement, the anti-war movement, the women's movement, gay and lesbian, the Chicano, the Native American, they all seem to be together. But was there one movement that you feel stood out amongst everything else that when you talk about the (19)60s generation and the boomers, that is the movement? JM: Well, as you asked that question, what came to my mind was the sports industry. Back in the (19)60s, we all lived for the World Series, sports athletes were heroes to us. It has changed so much in the past 35, 40 years that I do not recognize it anymore. And I think what they have done is we still put these people up on pedestals and then we try to follow their example. And that is where I think we get a little off. And as you were saying that the first thing that, like I said, just went right to the front of my mind is sports world. I know they do not have a whole lot of effect on our society, but they have changed quite a bit. I am very disappointed in what they have done. I used to be a great fan of all sports. I hardly watch anything anymore. I cannot put up with it. SM: Do you think that what has happened to your thoughts and what has happened to the athlete is a symptom of, again, a generation which covers the (19)60s and the (19)70s of people who, because they did not trust leaders and they saw so many things that they were disappointed in that, they have even got to find something wrong when something is right, even in an athlete? That no athlete can be pure and clean anymore. You have always got to find something negative on a person. Is there something there on that? JM: That is a good point. Back in the (19)60s, they used to hide these things about athletes. I mean, look like Mickey Mantle is an example. I had all night party and drinking hard and waking up from a drunken stupid to go four for four. And we did not know about that. Yeah, it was not until you told us, he got out. But now today, let us use Darryl Strawberry is an example, we knew his every movement. If he did not come to practice that day, we knew about him. And yesterday it was easy to find fault with a guy like that. Whereas we still idolized Mickey Mantle. And I think that what I was trying to find is the gist of your question is how fair has that been, it is our view of these athletes. Yes, they are like the poster child for the people that are in it for themselves. And it is probably been the way it has always been with sports, but it has changed so much. I can remember when the local sports teams in Philadelphia would not play Wilt Chamberlain a hundred thousand dollars a year and now they are paying guys like that that kind of money a game. SM: And the minimum for a rookie, I think is a quarter million or something like that today, if you sit on the bench and get to bat 40 times. Amazing. Getting back to the movements, I want to get back to the anti-war movement in America and what was happening on the college campuses. How important, in your opinion as a veteran, because you are coming from a different perspective here than maybe some other people I have interviewed, how important do you feel the anti-war movement was on college campuses over the (19)60s and early (19)70s in ending that war? JM: Well, it sure got a lot of press. From the time I can remember, maybe I should give you a little background here. When I went to Vietnam, that was 1966, there was hardly any type of protest anywhere against the war. I got back in (19)67 and that was just starting the White Heat of the protest movement. So I went from nothing to intensity within a short period of time, pan of year, not knowing anything. That information was not given to us over there. We heard about it from the new guys coming in. So I think what they did, they got a lot of press. The newspapers and TV people loved them. So they got up there a lot. And I think they bumped the service people off of the stage. And I think they behaved, my word is childishly, is that right? They behave like children and they wanted to spotlight. And in the long run, I do not want to cast this aspersions to anybody's beliefs, but I think a lot of them were just in it for the fun, for what they think they could do. It might have been that part of their lives where they thought they could make a change. And were trying very hard. And I think they cluttered up as they clogged up the works, in my opinion. And then the final question was, do I think they helped bring me in into war? I think what they did was they made it sound as though their opinion was so prevalent throughout the United States that it was the common opinion. And I think Nixon being the consummate politician he was, decided to bring war to some form of an end, his peace with honor to get it behind us. I think he probably saw that along with his cohorts, that America was not going to go anywhere as long as the war was going on and people were still protesting it. So in a sense, yeah, they did. I think they may have prolonged the war is another aspect because if we had have been able to go in and do what we needed to do militarily, we would not have been there until (19)72. SM: All right. When you are talking about the anti-war movement, again, could you give me a little bit about your background when you went to school, high school and how right out... If you had college or you went right into the military, just a little bit of that background and the years. JM: Graduated in (19)63. Bishop Shanahan just had our College Reunion this past Saturday, and went to work. I did not go to college. And there is that drafting again. So (19)63 through November of (19)65, I was under the cloud of the draft. Went to work here in West Chester near the college. Now I will think about it, I did not pick up on anything anti-war moves. I did not pick up on any student activities one way or the other. Well, I worked in West Chester at Mosteller, the old department store. Left that in 1965 to start my own business. And I started out in dining town and became oblivious to everything else that was going on in my life. I was not married, I was starting a business. I was working 16, 18 hours a day. I was not reading the paper, I was not watching television. I do not know what was going on. Anything I cared about was where am I in the draft. So long behold or round about September, October, I knew my number was going to be up. So I looked for alternative ways to do my service. And most of those doors were slammed shut. There was no openings in the National Guard or the reserves. Getting into the Navy was difficult. Air Force was almost impossible. And for some reason I could still never explain even to myself, I joined the Army to avoid getting drafted. SM: I heard that before, but- JM: I joined the Army to avoid being drafted. I signed up for four years where I could have got out in two of being drafted. Now if you ever want an example of a bad decision, that was it. My time spent in the military till November of (19)66 was in training. No contact or no attitude or anything like that about anybody else who was doing anything else. The college kids, other people of my generation. Drafted to go in November 29th, which was my birthday. I thought that was cruel that the government could do that to me. Joined on the 17th of November and November 17th, 1966, left Boston for Vietnam. Stayed over there till November of (19)67. Came back here. And now looking back on it, I was going into a world I did not know. We were told not to pick fights with civilians when we got off the plane. I am thinking, nobody ever said that to me before. Why would I pick a fight with a civilian? We did not know. The big thing then, Steve, was the mini-skirt. Oh yeah. Okay. All right. SM: I remember that. JM: We were all anxious to get home and see these mini-skirt things. And we were in the airport at 3:00 in the morning, there was not much going on. There was Austin, there was a group of other people. And probably for the first time I encountered that coldness that people of my own age had towards the military. When you are just hanging out, there is people your age. You gravitate together. Well, as I gravitated towards them, they gravitated away from me. They did not want [inaudible]. When I finally got that through my sleepy head, I just walked away. That was my first in contact with that sort of thing. And on the way home, I encountered another one time, right here in West Chester. And I just pretty much said, They were a bunch of jerks, and went home. So that was my background. Now it was November, 1967. The summer of love is over and the demonstrations, the protests are starting to really heat up. And I am looking around saying, Did I do something wrong? And some people bother to tell me that yes I did. By agreeing to go in over there, I was branded a coward by people. SM: Could you explain again, just your thoughts on those moments when you were on that plane flying to Vietnam and when you were on that plane returning from Vietnam? JM: A little background, I did not go over on plane. I went on a boat, ship. That took, I think 11 days. Mostly what that was, the whole time spent was we were apprehensive. They tried to fill our days in with the DS classes and things like that. [inaudible], Jalapeno gun for the thousand time in your life. They try to do that, but the whole time all you know is you are going to Vietnam. And they tried to keep it... What is the word I am looking for? Not somber. Professional. There was no partying. Nobody was in the mood to party. The night before we landed in Vietnam, they let the marines land by letting them crawl down those ladders they put down the side and into those sand pants and take them off to the beach. And we are watching these guys and often the distance, we can see the flashing lights, what we assume were some mortar rounds, bullets, whatever. And we are watching these guys going in there and we are just saying, poor some of bitches, man. They are drawing into the heat of the... They are going at night. How smart is that? And then we got Marines. He expected. So next day it was our turn. And rather than climbing down rope ladders, they just had some kind of gang wave for us to walk down. We just walked with our stuff and we were not Marines. So I had our stuff, which is double bags, rifles, whatever else we had on us. And we got into the same sand pants and we were hardhats when we were in gear, we had all our gear on and we were riding to the shore to where they were going to let us out. And all I am thinking about are those movies I have seen where they were sitting in those metal targets and this big thing goes dropping down like that. And there was this Major standing there taking pictures. And I thought how could it be. So we just drug our shit out of there. And he was just there, just taking pictures. And he directed us to some people who told us where we needed to go. And that was the way over. Now, the way back, that was quite a bit different story. I have written an article about this one. They lined us up on the tarmac and they put us alphabetically. So I was able to tell a guy who had been ragging me for a year to put my time in, to put his time in, because I was M and he was S. So it was, put your time in. I was leaving Vietnam before. So we got into the Continental Airlines. I cannot forget. First Miniskirt. First mini skirt on a regular American girl, because we had entertainers over there and they wore the miniskirts on purpose. First American girl with the miniskirt. So we got into the plane and we were sitting there and there is this feeling you get, it was almost like, okay, move this effing plane. And you feel the runway. You feel it running down the runway, I should say. Just as the wheels lift, you get that weightless feeling. Just as they lifted, the plane went nuts. We all started cheering and slapping fires, all that stuff like that. And the plane took off and it settled down for five minutes later. Guys did not know each other. We were just congratulating to each other. Things like that. And it was wonderful on our way home. Plane had not cleared space yet, we were not going to wait to party. We were on the air off the ground, We were an American territory now. And I will never forget this, the Crown Royal comes in that blue bag, purple bag. This old guy got up there. He was like [inaudible], and he said, Would anybody like to drink? And he held up, and of course we went, Whoa, yeah. He says, I got one thing to ask you, is do not drink, I got a toast. And okay, so we passed on little plastic cups. Rule was, and they told us this, if you open a bottle, it must be finished before the plane lands. Yeah, you can have your alcohol, but if you open the bottle, it has got to be finished. You cannot walk off a plane with a bottle with booze in. So that bottle was going down. So we all got our cups, and the sole guy, he says, I do not know any of you guys on this plane. I just got one thing to say to you. And that old Sergeant Gruff, he says, Well done. And then, hear-hear. These Stewards came by and says, Would anybody else like a drink? Yeah, mama over here. SM: Yeah, my friend is going to move his seat so that your miniskirts can down. JM: And he woke us up about every three hours to eat. I will never forget that. SM: And how many hours to get back from Austin? 22? It is a real long flight. JM: It was 24 hours total. So part of that was spent in a wide waiting, which was the hard part. The hard part, meaning there were guys who were getting off the plane to meet their... Guys on R and R. That was where they were going. They were going to pick up other flights to go to other places. I was going to stay on the flight to San Francisco and people got off were Military, and the people who got on were civilians. And all of a sudden we were contagious. We got the looks that leave us alone. Can you be more quiet please? Type of attitude. That was the first of that I encountered anywhere that, oh my God, I have to sit with soldiers, type of attitude. And they were rather snotty about it. SM: These are all ages, these people? JM: All ages. Yeah. Forgive them now, probably guys who were in World War II. I do not know if it was just that group of people who knows who they were. They were going back to America and they had to suffer in a ride with a bunch of returning Soldiers. But it got better. It got better because the plane I picked up in San Francisco and flew into Chicago. I was sitting back in what we call coach now, that was second class, but those days, and the Steward just came up to me and said, Come with me please. I thought, yeah. What do you have in my mom? Right after the first class, first seat on the right-hand side on the aisle, she had, The Captain instructed me to put you here. You have been upgraded, because I was new. SM: That is wow. JM: And I sat next to a guy who was a Korean War veteran, and we talked the whole way over. And he was not a snot, he was one of the good guys. And we talked and I told him I did not do combat. I said, I almost used that as a sort of, “Hi, my name is John Morris. I did not do any combat. First thing I wanted you to know about me.” And we talked. And it was nice. Of course, you did not buy any drinks. The Stewards just came by and talked all the time to me. It was nice. SM: And that was a long flight. JM: Sam says it was a Chicago. Chicago got a little uglier in that. That is a hard airport. The ride back was great highs and great lows, followed by great highs and then great lows. Chicago was one of the great lows. Get to your plane, remembering the admonition. Do not pick any fights. Hang together. Military guys were clustering together. That is what would happen. Probably the only time I can remember that guys like Marines, Navy, Air Force would get together on purpose. Usually you break off into your own little groups, but we sit with Marines and Airmen, Sailors and all that stuff. SM: I remember my dad in World War II when he was in Japan two weeks after they dropped the bomb and they were told to be together because if they went individually, they would probably be dead. Getting back to some general questions here, I want your thoughts again about the boomers. The thought was that they were going to change the world. A lot of people thought they were going to change the world. There has been a lot of good things that have happened since they have... Hopefully we still have problems with race relations, but there has been a lot of laws passed on outlawing segregation. There has been quite a few positive things from respect to women's and women's equality in the United States and so forth, but just overall was that hubris on the part of the boomers that were going to change the world, that were going to be different or that were going to be the greatest generation, and in the history of this place, there will be no group ever like us? JM: Yeah, you make a good point. A lot of the things that we see now has improvement since we took over, things happened because we changed them. There are a lot of things now, although the women's rights movement is a good example. Women are now equal to men, as in some areas it did not happen for a long time, in the employment world, for example. The idea of a woman owning a company back in 1960 was unusual using that woman inherited it from her father. Today it is common. And we applaud women who step forward and take roles in industry and politics and things like that. And it is okay for them to still want to be mommies. And I think that is a great change that this generation has made that, Go back to Peter or Max, do your own thing. SM: Yes. I am trying to ask veterans their thoughts on the Nurses, the women who served there with the men. John, could you explain how the Vietnam vets looked at the women who were over in Vietnam? What were their thoughts? JM: Well, I never encountered a Nurse the whole time I was over there. Does that help you any? SM: Yeah. Or women in any other positions, whether they be like the services I mentioned earlier, or people in civilian positions, or the Donut Dollies. There were a lot of women in different roles and not just Nurses in the medical area. JM: I ran across civilian women in two categories, Donut Dollies, who were wonderful women. And for the most part they were not attractive women. And it is probably not a nice thing to say, but they were not the decent ones I met. But they were just common American women who wanted to do something. They came over from America to Vietnam to hand out the donuts, to talk to the soldiers. And they were always very nice. They would always very nice of us. They would serve us chow, which was a surprise when you went into the chow line because there you were covered in mud. Chances are good. You had those metal eating things and messier that we had. You did not expect to look up and see a woman of any caliber standing. It is like, ugh. The ones I had met always made it a point to call you Mr. Morris. Not specialist or private. Mr. Morris. And I always thought that was a nice touch because they brought you back home. You were not a private, you were not a number anymore. This nice lady was calling you Mr. And then you say, Well, call me John. SM: One of the things about the Vietnam Memorial in Washington DC is that the wall was built to help with the healing process for the Vietnam veterans and their families, and certainly to heal a nation. Anybody who have read Jan Scruggs book knows it was supposed to be a non-political entity. It is to heal and to pay tribute to those who served, those who were wounded in the families and so forth. To heal. I like your thoughts on where are the Vietnam veterans, just in your thoughts in terms of obviously the healing, how important that wall is toward the healing and had the divisions that were so strong at that period between those who were against the war and the people who served, has there been any healing with respect to those two groups? JM: Let me start with that one. When you had the wall here, that is probably the most dramatic example of what you are just talking about. As you might remember, we had a bunch of guys who were bent out of shape about some of the problems you had with that. The political problems. The guys I encountered that put me off were the guys who seemed to be expecting me to agree with them that what they did was, and the only thing I could say is, Well, if you did the right thing, if that is what you thought at the time was right, I am not going to say it was wrong. But they wanted me to say what they did was right and say, Well, you have to be more comfortable with that than me. That is an example of one of the situations that come out for this particular issue. I still think today that these baby boomer protestors who are in their (19)50s and (19)60s right now should get comfortable with what they did, accept it and move along and not try to get confirmation from people like me and other veterans that what they did was right. And for most part, I will speak for the veterans I have had contact with, we do not care about the protestors. We do not hate them, we do not like them. They were there, they existed, but that is done. And we are dealing with our own issues and we are trying to get through it all. And we have to deal with that same issue. Are we comfortable with what we did? If the answer is yes, then we are happy. If it is no, then you have to find a way to get to yes. And hating somebody else that is not going to get you there. But every now and then, I run across an old protestor and they push that button on me. They are looking for me to validate what they did. That is fine. SM: During that, we have had those individuals who were here, who were protestors during that conference. And of course a lot of people have met Professor Davidson here on campus who had been the founder of SDS. And he is very comfortable with what he did. But he never needs to have validation. JM: Good friend. I liked him. SM: Yeah. And he is so genuine, that is why I am finding out between a lot of vets that I have interviewed is the fact that they are... And I like your opinion- SM: ...between a lot of vets that I have interviewed is the fact that they are... And I would like your opinion. Maybe they may never like the person totally, but do you feel there was a greater respect toward the person who was truly against the war, not trying to get out of the draft, but it was just truly against the war, was sent to jail oftentimes and paid a price for what they did than the person who was just trying, as you said, playing the game to get out of the draft, having a good time? Is there a difference or are all protestors the same? JM: No, not all protestors are the same. I am trying to remember his last name. David something, married to Joan Baez. He went to jail. SM: David Harris. JM: David Harris. He burned his draft card, did all the protesting, went to jail. For that, I think he could be admired. He, to this day, is a very strong war protestor. He is one of those guys that keeps trying to explain why he did what he did. Probably that is the only reason he is on TV is because of what he did. Now see, I do not have a problem with a guy like that. I do not know if many other people will. Muhammad Ali, there are guys in my chapter who said what he did was fine with them. With me it was not. I had to answer the call. I had to do the step forward. Anybody who did not do that to me was not as forthright as David Harris was. Now, if Ali walked through the door I would shake his hand, absolutely. But that particular thing he did with his life, I did not approve of then and I still do not. SM: The wall. Sometimes when you ask people there is an obvious answer, but every answer I have ever received is totally different. And the unique effect that that wall has had on them, just your thoughts on the importance of that wall in the veteran community, period. JM: It is mecca to the Vietnam veteran. It is where we go because we are drawn there. I did not go there until my 40th birthday and I told my wife that I was going to take my 40th birthday off work and I was going to go to the wall and I wanted to go alone because I did not know what I was going to do when I got there. I did not know if I was going to get half a mile away and back down. I did not know. So, that is what I did on my 40th birthday. And it was somewhat cleansing for me to do that. The reality still never hit me until I went with my chapter. And there I think is where I am headed with this answer. I think it is groups of veterans versus veteran singular. It is what it means to the groups of veterans, the VFWs, the Vietnam Veterans of America, all those guys. To us it is our home away from home. It is our mecca. And on a personal level, I am tickled to death that Jan Scruggs was able to do that. It probably took somebody like him to get it done, but thank God he was there to do it. SM: Yeah. You know about the politics of Washington to be able to get through the crap. Well, I will not even go into that, but you got to admire the person. You just have to admire him. You have really said some really good things on the healing process. I have a question here. Actually, it is going to go into the section where we are talking about when the best history books are written. My background is in history and the best World War II books are being written right now, 50 years after World War II. There has always been some good ones. But the historians will always say that the best books on any particular period begin 50 years after an event. Now, we are 30 years out from Vietnam and a lot of the books have been written and so forth, and a lot of books in the (19)60s have been written. But when the best history books are written on this particular era, what do you think they will say about this generation of Americans born over a 20-year period of time defined as the boomer generation, their impact on America, and I am including in this for your answer, those who served and those who did not serve? JM: Okay. Starting with those who served. Those- SM: You are fine. JM: Okay. Those guys were put into a no-win situation and when they ever had any movement towards winning, they would change the game. And then when they did not win, they were blamed for not winning. So, that has to be probably the most frustrating thing about that time for veterans who are boomers, the hell that they put some of those guys through over there, the combat veteran, to not make it worth anything in the long run. What we did in 1975, we bugged out. We left everybody behind and we just turned our back on all the hard work that was done. And that is probably going to be what those best books are going to talk about, the frustrations of the wars. Why did we go out every morning into the rice paddies and the jungles and recapture the same land that we captured the day before, only to leave it again at dusk day after day after day? That is senseless. If you want to lose a war, that is what you do. It is almost as though our leaders sat down with that purpose in mind. How can we lose this war? We cannot go into Cambodia even though we are being shot at from there. There is all these rules. Our hands were tied. SM: If you were to ultimately place the, it could be a combination of a lot of things, but if you were to just simply say point blank, the reason why we lost this war, who is to blame? Is it our leaders or lack thereof? JM: Our civilian leaders I think are responsible because they never had the intention... Well, first I think they found themselves caught in the war. The early stages of the war, we sent advisors under that catchall phrase. And I think as things got worse and we started to commit troops, we got stuck there, the quagmire that was Vietnam. And then our leaders decided for their reasons, which maybe in 50 years we will find out, that they did not want to do anything to actually win this war. And that is who I lay the blame at. Now, if you want to say Johnson and McNamara and Nixon, Kissinger and that bunch. That bunch. And whoever pushes their buttons, that bunch too. SM: But it is interesting. Military leaders report to the civilian, which is the President of the United States. But in the end, the joint chief of staff can still have tremendous influence. Are military leaders part of this blame here? Because ultimately oftentimes military leaders can persuade civilian leaders and the president that we must continue. Obviously, we are doing it to continue the war and they were getting reports. Is there some part of blame on the military leadership? JM: Yeah, the blame I think they should accept is the fact that they let it happen. And they could have easily done exactly as you said, use that influence. Explain to the civilians that that is not how war is waged, won today. But they did not. Maybe it is because they could not. Maybe the deck was stacked that much against them. Maybe they did not know how to do it. They have never been in that situation before. Maybe they just were not the Lee's and Grant's that we once had. SM: You go to the wall though, and you see the ceremonies there at the wall, the reverence they have for the leaders of their troops and the war is amazing. General McCaffrey, he has his whole big section there of people that served under him and he is almost like a god to them. Obviously, he cares about his troops. JM: What was he during the war? What rank? SM: Yeah, he was pretty high up. I do not know what his rank was during the Vietnam War, but I do know he always has a lot of people there at a wall that really... And of course he was involved in the Middle East War with George Bush and he was responsible for the killing of all the people that were going back to Baghdad. He oversaw that. So, he was off with his troops. He had troops during that timeframe as well. He became [inaudible] there for a short period of time. JM: Well, there certainly were those people who, if we had more of them, there would have been a different outcome. SM: I am going to finish up my last question and then I am going to just name some names here and if we want to take a break in between, it is okay too. JM: Sure. SM: But I want to get back to, again, this healing business you have talked about within the veteran community and as a nation, but do you think there is an ultimate responsibility on the part of Vietnam veterans or people who care about this issue to really try to heal people in a group, a generation, before they pass away? I say this because through history books, oftentimes even during the Civil War, I use the Civil War as an example, that there were years and years of opportunities for the north and south troops to come together to try to heal and respect each other as a warrior, and people who did not serve. But just simply say, "We got caught up in the times and I respect what you did." But I am not sure if I see that here as a generation. And it is like a funeral. I am leading into a question here, but it is like a funeral when a person has died and all the nice things are said about a person, but that person never heard it in their lifetime. Is there an inherent responsibility, particularly among Vietnam vets who have gone through hell upon their return, but they were the leaders in creating a memorial for the people who served in Vietnam, which has become a model for the Korean War veteran... It has become a model for the World War II veteran. They have become leaders in so many areas. Should they also maybe be a leader to make this nation better, to heal it and could do anything in its... Not only to heal within themselves. And you have really put it beautifully in terms of, "I do not have to heal for someone who was against the war. We have our own issues." But can we ever think as a collective, as a nation, so that this does not happen again? And we might be in one right now for all we know. JM: I think- SM: And John, I am going to turn this... JM: To answer your question, the single veteran can do a lot. He can run for political office. He can work within his community, things like that. But what I see more now, mostly because of my activities again, are the organizations stepping in now trying to not make change so much, but make things that are good better and make things that might not be good at all good, working within the communities as a powerful force within the community. Now, as far as healing, there are a lot of guys in my chapter who hold strong hateful feelings towards groups of people because of the war. There are people in my chapter that do not like the Vietnamese, no matter what side they fall on. They do not like the protestors. Never will. Those guys have their problems. And until we can heal those guys, we cannot let them out into the general population because they will just create more havoc. So, what we try to do is we try to work with those guys, not so much to change them, but just try to show them another way. And after that is done, then I guess it is the old story about if you want to change the world you change the person. And again, I think the veteran communities, the veterans organizations are doing a lot behind the scenes. And if you go to a VFW or an American Legion and ask them what they have been doing lately, you will think all they do is sit there and drink. But they do a lot of good. If nothing else, they put on the parades every patriotic holiday. They are in the schools working with the kids. And when somebody needs a helping hand, they are there. If there is an organization that needs some funding, some children's organization that needs a few bucks, they are there to help out. And I think they are doing a lot to heal. I just think the healing process is so long and the pain is so great that the pain remains the same size, it just becomes less intense. SM: When I interviewed Gaylord Nelson too many years ago when I first started this project and then I stopped for three years when my parents were ill, he point blank said that no one goes around Washington DC who's a boomer, who is in a political position or any kind of position, looking down on their arm and saying, "I am not healing. I am not healing." People do not think that way. But he did say one thing that really struck me and that was that forever the body politic of America has changed. The body politic. That is where the change happened. It will never be the same again. And as a United States senator, co-founder of Earth Day and all the other things, and ousted in 1980 like so many of the Democrats were... He was an anti-war senator. And course he was one of those ousted along with McGovern and Birch Bayh and a whole other group. He paid the price for his beliefs. But he thought the body politic had changed forever. I have some names here. Would you like to take a quick break or get a- JM: I am fine. SM: These are some names that I have been asking everyone. Just some quick thoughts on each of them and let me go on to the next one. Tom Hayden. JM: Married Jane Fonda. I think he was strident. You probably use that word quite a bit with the protestors. Articulate. He was good at making a point. I just think that the points he made were off the mark. SM: Jane Fonda. JM: We will never forgive Jane Fonda. Never. For what she did. And probably their biggest mistake was to become so visual, so much in the spotlight about what she did. And even now these many years later when she did try to make some sort of amends, it even came up sounding hollow. So, we just said, "Pfft." She is the second most beautiful woman in America. The first one is everybody else. SM: Lyndon Johnson. JM: The only thing I know about Lyndon Johnson, of course, is what they tell me. But I saw him as someone who was extremely good at working the political game. He was the guy who got us from the point of intervention into quagmire in Vietnam. And I think basically had a testosterone problem in that area. I think he wanted to prove something. He wanted to prove Americans had balls and that he was the head ball holder. That, I think, was his classic mistake. And I think he was probably the top dog in a kennel where there were a lot of little small dogs nipping at his heels all the time. And those people probably in the long run won out. SM: Hubert Humphrey. JM: Yeah. I do not whole lot about him. Seemed a likable kind of guy. SM: Some people believe, again, if he had had the courage to stand up to the president and he was pretty close to winning and beating Nixon, if they had said the election had gone any further, a week, Humphrey probably would have won and we had have been out of the Vietnam War even faster. We will never know. But- JM: No, not much. SM: How about the individuals that were the Black Panthers of that era? Huey Newton and Bobby Seale on the Black Panther party. JM: Opportunists. SM: Angela Davis and that group. JM: Opportunists. They saw a way to cash in, either for money or for fame, and maybe that hate that may seed in every Black person in America, they were able to exemplify and point it out. Which in a way is a benefit, because up until that point, we all thought that they were happy in their life. We did not know there would be angry Black people. I knew of a militant Black man in the army and probably he is the most responsible person to break me from my fog about race relations to a little bit of clarity in my conversations with him. But I think the ones you mentioned were opportunists. They saw, "Oh, here is a way to cash in some fashion." SM: Right. You had your thoughts on Martin Luther King Jr. and of course Thurgood Marshall who went through all the [inaudible] approach. Mostly Martin Luther King Jr., who also was upset with America. And just your thoughts on the civil rights leaders of that era, of which Dr. King was the central force. JM: I was working in Texas the night he was shot. I was working. I was helping deliver televisions as a part-time job. I was in the army. And all of a sudden the news was, he was shot. Well, remember, I am in Texas. And the people are dragging me in to watch TV into this TV repair shop, and they are talking about, "It is about time somebody shot that nigger, and we are going to be better off because of this." And I am sitting there and I am in some sense of sorrow. I am thinking, "Oh my God, somebody shot that poor guy. Here was a guy," this is what I was thinking, "Here was the guy who put it on the line. He got his whipped ass a lot for doing what he did. He probably had to have tenacity we cannot imagine to get anywhere with what he did and how he did things. And now some cretin has shot him down in cold blood. And at this stage in his life, he is on his way out of the limelight. He is being downgraded. There are others who are coming to the foreground that are pushing him aside. And at this stage of his life, he gets assassinated like this." And as it is turned out now, I do not know how many years later, he is reached near sainthood in America and to the point where his birthday might even become a national holiday. So, my major remembrance of Dr. King was the fact that the night he was shot, I was in room full of these rednecks. They were in their glory because this guy had been killed. And all I can think about is a life wasted and all that work and all that hard work that he did, maybe all that work he did will never really be appreciated. I was wrong. It has been appreciated. SM: How about Malcolm X? JM: Anything I know about him probably I saw in this movie. I read the book, Malcolm X's autobiography, while I was still in the army, compliments of my friend. He also gave me Soul on Ice to read. SM: Oh yeah, Eldridge Cleaver. JM: Eldridge Cleaver. SM: Yep. Classic. JM: And I think with Malcolm X I could just say, that anger that most Black people feel had a very eloquent voice. From what I understand, I only learned this from the movie, he was changing quite a bit towards the end of his life. And then again, he is assassinated. It seems though, when they are at a point in their lives where there is major changes going to happen to them, maybe for the good. They are taken from us. SM: Leads me right into John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. JM: Well, we all remember where we were. SM: Yeah. 40 years ago. JM: With Kennedy, I had reached the point in my life where my world was shaken because it gave me that feeling that I was not safe. If the President of the United States could be murdered like that, how safe am I? Because he had all those cops around him. Everything about his movements are scheduled and you cannot get near him, yet he was killed. He has been murdered. And where are we going? Well, who is the next guy in line? Well, Lyndon Johnson. Is not he a buffoon? What is happening? What is going to happen to us? That is what I remember most about John Kennedy as far as the assassination goes. It is a shame he has been reduced to how he died versus how he lived. We will never know what kind of president he could have been. And if he would have lived, maybe he would have been a lousy president, just one of those ones we forget about, but we will not know. We lost all that promise. Bobby Kennedy, I think he was a warmed up version of John. He tried to recapture that Camelot spirit, bring us back to where we thought we were with Kennedy before the assassination. Naturally I was sad at his murder, but not nowhere near what it was like with John Kennedy. SM: Right. Eugene McCarthy. JM: Clueless. He had a thought. It was a good one, but he had to have more thoughts to put them together and he just did not have the talent for that. Probably was a brilliant guy. Some of the things that I read he wrote were very well written. So, he was probably a brilliant guy, but he did not have the political savvy to bring it forward. And unfortunately, they made mincemeat out of him. SM: How about George McGovern? JM: McGovern is somewhat like that too. I think he probably just was a little bit more politically strong. I think the thing with McCarthy is that he could easily be led astray, and I think he was. Whereas McGovern, I do not think you could easily lead him astray, but you could still do it. SM: Some other characters from that particular period. Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the hippies. JM: Yeah. Oh, I think they were over the top. I think that is how they played it. They wanted to be that in your face, loud guerilla protestor. And I think that is what they wanted. And Abbie's book says it best. Steal This Book. He wanted to be so out there that you had to kind of admire his audacity. And I think Rubin was just annoying. SM: You ever read his book, Do It? Rubin's book. Rubin's book. JM: No, I never read that. SM: I will tell you a story beyond this interview about him. It is kind of hilarious. Timothy Leary. JM: He was in a position to have caused a lot of harm to this country because he was an admired person because of his position. He was pressing drugs on young people who were impressionable. And I can remember when LSD was the then popular drug. He was pressing it and people had a tendency to believe that it must be okay, or at least not as bad as our parents are telling us it is if this guy is for it. But I think in his sense he was probably more harmful to our country in the fact that he presented that false impression of how are, how drugs work. Thank God he is probably being seen for what he really was. And I think what he really was-was just the guy who wanted his 15 minutes and snapped it up. SM: How about the Berrigan brothers, Daniel and Philip? JM: The priests? SM: Yes. Daniel and Philip. JM: They were both Jesuits, were not they? SM: Mm-hmm. JM: Okay. Not that that has any bearing on anything other than my answer. I am Catholic. Jesuits are considered the tip of the spear in the Catholic religion in that if there is any goofiness going on, you can find a Jesuit. And I think that is where they fit in. They became involved with the anti-war movement and they put the Catholic face on the anti-war movement. SM: What about Benjamin Spock? JM: The protestor or the doctor wrote the kids’ books? SM: Both. JM: Okay. SM: He is one and the same. JM: The doctor wrote the books that our parents used to raise us, probably relatively harmless that. I think that he was too certain of his thoughts and his beliefs and he tried to ram them down people's throats. I remember that from the interviews I saw on TV. It was almost as though, "Sit there and listen. I am going to tell you how it is. Dare not challenge me." And that bothered me. SM: Richard Nixon. JM: God, we elected him twice? SM: Not me. JM: Not me either, but- SM: No comment. JM: ...in my opinion, a lot of the problems we had at the time we had because we elected him president. He was a polarizing force in America. If you loved him, he did no wrong and you would drink the Kool-Aid for the guy. If you hated him, he could do no right. And everything seemed to go down the hill because of it. SM: What about Spiro Agnew? JM: A buffoon. I am saying that because of how he exited the political arena. He was taking kickbacks when he was the governor and things like that. He was doing all the things that politicians do that make us hate them. And Nixon plunked him out of nowhere. And I think Nixon got screwed by the people who are supposed to do their work by presenting this guy to him. SM: How about Daniel Ellsberg? JM: Daniel Ellsberg. Pentagon papers, right? SM: Mm-hmm. JM: I do not know a lot about him other than the movie I saw. Well, first of all, by the movie, he was in Vietnam. And then he came back here and became a reporter. He supported the war, then he went against it. I know nothing. I believe his psychiatrist's office should not have been ransacked. That is wrong. SM: Robert McNamara. JM: I think he was an extremely brilliant and smart man who probably did not have a lot of inner courage. And I think he probably did not see big pictures. He saw details, and it was the details he would focus on to the exclusion of the big picture. And I think he screwed up and I think he will admit that. SM: How about Gerald Ford? JM: I think he was just thrust into the limelight probably because he was a good soldier for the Republican Party. It was fun when he was president. You did not expect much of the guy and if he did anything, you were happy. And when he screwed up, he probably just smiled. That is all I remember about him. And his stupid WIN buttons. What the hell was he thinking? SM: Well, history will oftentimes say the war ended. He ended it. JM: By supporting Nixon? SM: No-no. We got out of Vietnam on April 30th, 1975 under his watch. So, a lot of people give him the credit, and I am not sure if history has really looked at him. I think the role that he played over that two years... I forgot. Nixon was kicked out. I am not sure what people think really of him in the long run. JM: It is amazing you brought that up because I would not have remembered he was president when the war ended. In my mind, the ending of the war was an event in place and to happen, and it just so happened under his watch, as you said. I do not think he consciously said, "Let us end this war now." It was just ending. Somebody else ended it for him. He was just doing the leg work. Somebody else ended it for him, he was just doing the leg work. SM: You had already made reference to Muhammad Ali, but I bring him up again. Muhammad Ali and all the COs, conscientious objectors, from that period. He stood up late to the forefront. But your thoughts on Muhammad Ali and the conscientious objector. JM: Well, I will start off with general conscientious objector. If they indeed did their service, which was an alternative you had, you could go clean bed pants at the Valley Forge Hospital. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: Do your time there. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: Then fine. As it turns out, they were actually aiding the war effort. Because that was one less thing that we had to pay for. And the ones I had known in my life were pain in the asses because they would always try to make me feel that because I would do something like going to the military, that they were much better than I was. They would not lower themselves to harm somebody. And in my mind, I would always say, "yeah, until pressed." Anyone can be pushed into a situation where you will defend yourself, if nothing else. So I did not really think they had the courage of their convictions. As long as it was easy to be a conscientious objector, I think that is when it was fine for them. When it became difficult, it may have separated a bit. And if anyone held that belief today, after being a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War, then I will admire that person. But I think a lot of them now will probably be just as bloodthirsty as anybody else. SM: And Muhammad Ali again in terms of... JM: I think he wanted to prove that no matter how much we are told that you have no choice. You have a choice. If you are willing to pay the price, the choice is there. He did. He paid an awful price for what he did, I do not think he paid enough, but he paid. He lost his championship, he lost his right to earn a living, and he lost a lot of respect of Americans because of it. SM: Barry Goldwater. JM: He ran for president, right? SM: You run against Johnson (19)64 or the big one. JM: Well, I guess the only thing I can remember about him was people went out of their way to convince me he was so conservative that he might just be the end of us all. And I am thinking to myself, "How can anybody be that bad, that evil, that stiff- necked, that if we put him in the President of the United States, he is going to get us into a war? A bombing war? A hot war? Nah." And then Johnson did the same thing. SM: Right. Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan, the women who were in the forefront of the women's movement. JM: Betty Friedan wrote a very good book about aging for women. I will probably be affected by that book that I read. As I understand those two women were front-runners for the women's movement, which was when it first came out, was somewhat laughable in that they did not seem to have a platform that was something you can get onto. Where things like inequity and pay for jobs, that was an issue and that is something they should have gone after and did, but there were other things that they harped about, excuse the phrase, harped about that seemed, "Why are you concerned about that when they had so many other bigger issues to deal with?" SM: The music of the period, how important was the music of the period in your life? The music of the (19)60s, in terms of both positive? And secondly, I have two-part question here, your thoughts on the music of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, impact on your life, and your thoughts on the musicians who were anti-war. And there were a lot of them. JM: Mm-hmm. SM: Joan Baez, was very obvious. Everybody knows about Phil Ochs. But of course you can even say John Lennon and The Beatles. There is a lot of things in there. And certainly Janis Joplin and Jimi Hendrix. And you are dealing with a lot of the musicians of that period who were anti-war, just your thoughts on that, through their music. JM: Let us see. First part of the question. What effect did it have on me? SM: Mm-hmm. JM: Profound. I actually believe that I changed as music changed. In early, well, in the late (19)50s, early (19)60s, I was into that, what they called, " doo-wop music," and The Platters and The Drifters and The Coasters and all that stuff. And then The Beatles arrived, changing music the way they did, British Invasion, I feel I changed. Some of my favorite singers, Janis Joplin, for example, to this day when I am feeling low, I put her music on to give me a list. I have got Joan Baez tapes at home. I love her music. A woman? No. SM: Right. JM: Now, she was too strident. She and Tom Hayden, they were both strident. So, now I think music had a profound effect on my generation because it was the thing we created. And I do not know how many of our people did, but we created it by liking it. There had not been a market for rock and roll. SM: Right. JM: There would not have been there any rock and roll. And then as we grew up and became the rock and rollers, we changed it once again. SM: Is there any one musician that stood out for you? Group or musician? JM: Well, I will say Janis. Yeah. The first time I heard Janice sing, the hair on the back of my neck stood out. SM: Oh. JM: It was a moment I will never forget. We had the album, Big Brother & The Holding Company- SM: Oh, yeah. JM: Cheap Thrills. SM: Yeah, the cover is unbelievable. JM: Yeah, Robert Crumb. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: We brought into the barracks and we had waited. I mean, we were literally salivating, because none of us had ever heard this phenomenon sing. So you put it on and playing it on your basic record player. SM: Right. JM: And as I said, as she started to sing, the hair in the back of my neck stood out. And what she would do for me is she would get me there, and then she would make me profoundly sad when she sang. And then the next thing out, she would make me feel excited. I would feel the blood pumping in my veins. She could do all that for me. SM: And when you heard she died, and the way she died, you may not remember where you were, but what were your thoughts on how she just passed away? JM: I remember where I was. I still feel to this day that I wish I would have been there that night to put my arms around her and talk her out of it. Maybe I could have saved her. Now, obviously that is ridiculous. But that is how I felt. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: And I was really, very sad. And of course, when Pearl the album came out, which was just finished as she died, that was sort of like her gift to us. SM: I am almost done. JM: Okay. But you did ask me about the ones who protested the war. SM: Yes. JM: So what did I think about them? SM: Mm-hmm. JM: I enjoyed it. The guy who wrote Draft Dodger Rag, was that Phil Ochs? SM: I think Country Joe McDonald was another one of the singers that was a protester. JM: Yeah. I enjoyed that. I thought that was great. I loved the protest music. Did it make sense that I liked the protest music? I did not care. It was funny. It was interesting. It was fun. SM: Your thoughts, I will not mention the name, one of the individuals that I interviewed, is a very well-known Vietnam veteran, pretty high up. And he has a problem. And his problem is that he had no problem with those people who protested against the Vietnam War who were musicians and entertainers. But he has a tremendous problem today with entertainers and musicians who protest against their current war in Iraq or are just out there protesting. He was making references to Ed Asner, Mike Farrell, the people that have been out there that have been so visible. And he says, "I do not understand my problem because I had none and I almost died in Vietnam. Yet I have a problem today, and I am trying to deal with this." I do not know how Vietnam vets look at it. Whether you think that Vietnam vets have problems with today's people who protest the Iraq War? Or they do not make that kind of thinking, "This is just one person's thoughts." JM: Well, there is a connection really between the singer protestors of our era and the ones today. And that is they should just sing and entertain us and just shut up. SM: Okay. JM: I do not want to hear Naomi Main's opinions about Bush or Ed Asner myself. SM: Right. JM: Entertain me. That is why I am looking at you. I want you to entertain me. SM: Right. JM: So I am bothered by the fact that they take the stage the way they do and the platform and then use that to preach to me about things like that. Just sing, just act, just do what you do. Do what puts you here. SM: Right. JM: Do not use it as a format to come after this. Yes, there is a lot of difference now of how people feel about entertainers who protest as compared to what it was in the (19)60s. In the (19)60s, it was almost the thing to do. Everybody was against the war, so you have to be against the war. SM: Right. JM: And then if you say, "Well, I am for the war," people would think there was something wrong with you. SM: I got a couple terms here. I just want your thoughts to these terms. SDS. JM: Students for Democratic Society. What is the young guys pretending they are at war with their government? [Inaudible]. SM: Counterculture. JM: Good phrase. My problem with that phrase goes back to when the counterculture became the culture. And if you did anything else, there was something wrong with you. And back in those days, if you wore Chinos and got a short haircut, you were counterculture and they would not accept you. SM: Right. Yeah. Pentagon Papers, I have already gone through that, but just maybe mention to the (19)60s and (19)70s, people had thoughts about the Pentagon Papers. JM: All I know about that is the movie I saw. And James Spader was the actor in it, I do not know. That is all I know. SM: Chicago Eight or Seven depending on- JM: Yeah. They were found guilty of leading the riots in Chicago, as I understand it. What I remember most about them, other than the fact they were loud and a little bit obnoxious, was they used the trial as a format, as a springboard for their idealism. They did not care if they were going to become guilty or innocent, they just wanted the rest of the world to hear them one more time. And it was tiresome. I filed it very little because I got tired of hearing about it. SM: Kent State. JM: Oh, true tragedy. In all honesty, I think if they would have sent a regular troops there, it would not have happened. But they did not. I guess I am saying something against the Guard and Reserves, but I think regular troops would have been a little bit more disciplined and would not have happened, more likely, would not have happened. A true tragedy. Probably a pivotal moment in the way our society viewed the world. SM: What is that? JM: Love to have been there. Sat on a foot locker waiting to be mobilized to go there to keep the crowd controlled. SM: Oh really? JM: I was in Kansas. SM: Oh my God, you really wanted to be there. JM: We were ready. They told us that we had to, all these classes were canceled, we had to be there. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: We had to be able to move within a four, five hour notice. We would be in the barrack. We were sitting on foot lockers listening as much as we could about what was going on at Woodstock. And that is Woodstock for me. I would love to have been there, but I was in Kansas. I think it probably was that [inaudible] of a boil for the summer of love. Got to build off to it. SM: The leaders of Vietnam, during that timeframe- JM: Excuse me a second. That was (19)68, was not it? SM: That was (19)69. JM: (19)69, yeah. SM: And Reverend Pastor [inaudible] was there. JM: Okay. SM: I think 17. But it certainly does not let us [inaudible] JM: They used the term, "Summer of Love" and that was (19)67. SM: Right. JM: So [inaudible] SM: That was in San Francisco. President Q and General Call Key, those are the two people that ever remembers who were the leaders during the (19)60s and right after the war. And then they had a couple toward the end. But your thoughts on the leadership of Vietnam? JM: In most part, I will say that those who served in the army of South Vietnamese were mostly brave people. They lived a life where the war was never going to end for them, really. We went home after a year, they stayed. So, you know, hear the stories about the South Vietnamese soldier not being a good warrior and everything. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: But I think that was an unfair assessment. The leaders, I think, fall in that category where you kind of hoped they were not corrupt, because they were putting people's lives in jeopardy for the wrong reasons. Maybe they were or maybe they were not. I think they probably had good solid generals to lead them. I think they probably got told what to do by the American generals there. Mostly it was our show. SM: Your thoughts on the generals? Because when you think of the Vietnam War, I think of three, I think of General Maxwell Taylor, I think of General William Westmoreland, and I think of Creighton Abrams. Those are the names that come to the forefront over this war. Your thoughts on them as leaders in the military? A war that, I hate to keep saying the term, the only war we have ever lost, but I think I am wondering if history's really going to say in the long run that we truly lost it. That is why I believe history books, who people are unbiased will tell the truth. JM: They will say we lost the war and won the peace. But now to answer your question, I think earlier we talked about the generals, and I think I had mentioned that I thought they were just unable to not have the civilians call the shots. They probably were as good a general leading man as generals generally are, but they just did not have the political clout or the savvy to pull it off. They probably could have used a patent, that might be the best way for me to put it. Just a son of bitch who did not care. He knew he was right and he was going to do it. He would have gone to the Delta and marched all the way up through Hanaway, and they did not let us do that. SM: Just a couple few more names and then we are done. John Lennon; I would bring him out because he stands to the forefront of all The Beatles. He was killed in 1980, but he was this "give peace a chance," he was as anti-war as you can get. The United States, he is as high up on the enemy's list as you could find. They wanted him out of the country. John Lennon. JM: And you succeeded getting him out of the country too. SM: Yeah. JM: And he had to go on radio wearing a fatigue shirt with the, I think it is the second Army patch on it, I remember that clearly. I will go back to what I said earlier. Sing, entertain me, do not talk. I tuned him out. If he had an opinion about the war, it did not matter to me. It sort of just bounced off the wall. SM: But you listened to his music stuff. JM: Oh sure. SM: Yeah. JM: Well the music is a great equalizer. SM: How about Ramsey Clark? Of all these former attorney generals, he is the most anti-war person you could get. He was anti-war during the (19)60s, the (19)70s, he still is today. JM: Well then, I congratulate him for holding onto his beliefs. I know very little about the man. SM: It has been pretty consistent. And I am going to end this with actually two questions. One of them is a question centering around Country Joe McDonald, who was here back in (19)98. JM: I remember. SM: And he made a statement in the room when Jan Scruggs was at dinner, I think you were there, John, I think there is a group here at this dinner, and I am not sure if he caught everybody's attention. He made a comment that, and I want your thoughts on this comment. JM: Okay. SM: His comment was the reason why Vietnam vets have such a problem upon their return, particularly he was emphasizing the combat vets, is that that there were no POWs left. There were no North Vietnamese POWs. And he was making a reference that, "You figure out what happened to him." And that is part of the reason why there is guilt on the part of some vets toward what happened over there. They cannot heal mainly because what may have happened to the people they captured who were the Viet Cong or the North Vietnamese troops, who they in turn handed over to the South East were in turn just plain killed. It was a pretty strong statement. And it was just a reference he made and it was a joking kind of a reference, but it was dead serious. I may be interpreting him wrong, but I think that is what he was referring to toward the combat, that is not all Vietnam vets. Because you have the story of the POWs of American troops and of course we lost many and they were treated poorly, so we were not talking about that, but we were talking about why were not their POWs, those individuals who a lot of them were captured and that is what he was referring to. And that is why he thinks there is so much of a problem with the combat vet in their healing, reference to the guilt of handing them over to the South Vietnamese troops, who they knew what they were going to do them. JM: Well, I will say I do not know what they did with POWs. I know I was there when they had captured them. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: I mean, I heard the stories, but I do not know if there was an internment camp for them. Well, let me finish my thought on that. I know that there was a strongly held belief that if you brought in a Viet Cong warrior and fed him and gave a place to live and worked with him, taught him that Americans are not so bad, he would probably convince you that you had won him over and then as soon as your back was turned, he would be going back out in the bushes with his buddies. That was the strongly held belief. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: So I guess what I am saying is there was everybody believed there was no way you would ever get this POW from either Viet Cong or the Northern forces ever to stop wanting to go back and fight against you. That to me, that is the first thing that comes to my mind. I think if you took that issue away completely, the same guys you are talking about, the combat vets who have problems dealing with the healing process, but still have problems dealing with the healing process. It may be a part of that problem that they face, but without it, they would still have the same problems. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: And I heard about the guys that did things like that, but I never did it, nor did I know anybody who did, nor did- SM: And I may be in misinterpreting Country Joe, but he just made a straight comment, "What happened to him?" That is what his reference is to, then you be the judge. JM: Yeah, there was 300,000 of them missing, right? SM: Right. JM: And there is plenty of Viet Cong and North Vietnamese POW MIAs. SM: Right. JM: There is 300, 000 of them. SM: Yep. JM: We are complaining because we have 1,800 missing and we want ours back. SM: Was there one particular tragic event in your young life, and I am not referring to your service in Vietnam, is there any one American event that had the greatest impact on you? JM: When you say young life, you mean when I was younger? SM: When you were younger. Or it could be even today, but it is basically during that period, during the (19)60s and (19)70s. The thing that stood out, that may have had the greatest impact on you. It could have been a tragic event or it could be a very positive event. JM: I will give you what came to my mind first, the assassination of John Kennedy. That feeling that I was no longer safe. If they can get to the president, they can get to me. And I did not know who they were, but they scared me more. There is a bunch of crazies out there running around and I do not have any way of protecting myself from them. You cannot be protected from them. Kennedy was proved positive of that. So if there is any one thing, yes. And I will give you another example; I remember growing up as a kid, not being able to look at horizon without thinking of a mushroom cloud. And I, to this day, drift into that. I will be somewhere just looking out the horizon and I will mentally envision a mushroom cloud. So maybe it was the understanding of what nuclear weapons were, how devastating they could be, and how unsafe I was. Because here I am looking at this nice bucolic scene and who knows, some bomb may go off. SM: The last question, I guarantee. JM: I hope not. SM: I will certainly ask you for final thoughts if I did not hit something that you may have thought I was going to ask. This gets into the whole concept of trust. We are dealing with it here on the college campus. We are going to be bringing a speaker in next semester on the leadership of trust. Because I am wondering your thoughts on how that period in American history, because of the failure of our leaders, the very obvious failure of, and the lies that were told to the Americans by President Johnson and probably President Nixon, the enemy's list. But you can even go back to the Eisenhower when he lied about the U-2. And then you can go into President Kennedy. Well, did he have anything to do with the DM murders or killings? Then you go to Johnson, then you go to obviously Nixon, then you getting into the Reagan era about The Iran-Contra. But what I am getting at here is do you feel that in your youth when you were young, you as a teenager and in your twenties, that the trust issue, the lack of trust, the impact that young people had, whether they were veterans or non-veterans, had toward leaders. And I refer to not only leaders in the White House, but leaders of our churches, leaders of our corporations, leaders in university presidents, leaders in any capacity. The youth did not trust them because they have been lied to. And I want to know if your thoughts on whether this trust issue is something that I am over exaggerating or that really is part of the boomer generation, generation that is not trusting, and they have passed that on to their kids, who in turn do not trust who now will in turn pass it on to their kids, because they are seeing some things even today. Who can you trust in this world? I see that personally, and I mean it is not my interview, but I see that as a major issue in the boomer generation. But I may be totally wrong. Just your thoughts. JM: Okay. Well first, I think that a certain amount of distrust is a healthy thing. It is what stops children from talking to strangers and things like that. I am going to deal with the distrust you are talking about though. When I was growing up, Eisenhower was the president. We had complete faith in this guy. Well, here was a five-star general hero of World War II, builder of our highways. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: Almost a Scratch Golfer, right? This guy you could trust. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: And of course that guy, he had his vice president. He was a little seedy looking. But I grew up in an era where you could trust your leaders or at least you felt like you could. Obviously, I was wrong because we go back in that period of time, you can find lots of examples. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: I think what happened was there was this explosion of distrust during the (19)60s that happened. "Do not trust anyone over 30," common thought. Now those people, the guy who said that, is something like 65 now. I think we used that distrust as one of our shields, one of our weapons, when we went to try to make changes when we went to exert our own personalities, we were distrustful. And yes, we have passed that along to our children because we have gotten so good at it that it does not seem to be a yoke or a cloth we want to shed. We want to remain distrustful to some extent. And yes, there is a sadness in that. Now, I would like a world where we can feel a little bit more trust towards people. And yeah, it is probably just as strong today as it was back then. And in that sense, it is sad because I think, along with a lot of things that went right with how the boomers changed things, this might be one of those things that did not go quite right, it went wrong. SM: Mm-hmm. JM: By this time we would, I will use me as an example, I would want people my children's age to trust me. And if I ran for Mayor of Downingtown, I would want those young people to trust that I have their best interests at heart. I do not know if they believe that. And if you cross racial lines, I would know they do not believe that. SM: I am finished. Is there any other final comments or thoughts you would like to state on anything linked to the interview or a question that you thought I may ask that I did not? Any final thoughts? JM: Question that maybe you should have asked that you did not? Yeah, okay. We hit on it briefly, but I mentioned earlier that when you were 20, you have a tendency to gravitate towards people your own age. And when I came back and we would go to a party or something and the subject would come up, "now I am in the army, I just got back in Vietnam," or "I am going to Vietnam," or something like that. Actually, after I got back, I should be more clear. After I got back, I sensed the people my age who did not have my experience turned cold. Were maybe distrustful, but all of a sudden somebody, I should have something in common with I no longer do. And to add to the worst thing, I did not seek out those people that I had something in common with for 25 years. I did not do anything within the veteran community. I did not join the VFW, I did not do any of the things I am doing now. SM: [inaudible] hold that thought, I am going to change- JM: I was talking about being young and losing the trust of people of your own age group. And then I segued into not seeking out those people that I would have something in common with, other veterans for 25 years. And I think that was pivotal to me in my life, that I at one point 25 years later decided, "There is something in here inside of me that needs to get out." And I think I found an avenue for that, and that was joining veterans organizations and becoming active with veterans. And I think if I could add any one thing, it would be to tell any veteran out there who is not home yet to try and come home. Go to your VVA meeting, join your VFW, work through it. Because it made the most difference to me in my life to have done that. SM: And in the veterans community today, is it a strong unit? In other words, World War II and Korean vets, Gulf War Vets and Vietnam vets, there is no animosity toward them, there is a feeling of [inaudible]- JM: I am glad you asked that question. I think the Vietnam veterans actually changed that. When we came back, they did not accept us. World War II, Korean guys did not accept us. We were not veterans. I heard that. It was said to me. And we, the Vietnam Veterans of America, we decided that is not right. Never again should any generation of veterans turn its back on another, which is our credo. And we went out there and we said, "Okay, fine. World War II and Korea, we forgive you. What you said is forgotten. Now, let us be veterans together." And with the passage of time, the aging of the World War II, Korea guy, turning over the mantle of responsibility and power to the Vietnam veterans at the organizations, they have come now to understand we were not the people they thought we were. There was a cohesiveness within the veterans’ organizations that did not exist 25, 30 years ago. And we were not the force that was creating the problem either. It was the World War II, Korea guy who did not accept us. SM: Again, to clarify, why did not they accept you? JM: [inaudible]- SM: And was it combat vets or was it non-combat vets? JM: You would like me to give you their answers? SM: Yeah, their answers. Yeah, from their perspective. JM: That is the only thing I have, because their answers would be, "I spent four years in the Army. I did not know when I was going to get out of Germany. You guys went over there for what, 12 months? And maybe you did not even see any combat? You went on R&R; I did not get any of that. I was fighting for the world's freedom. What were you doing?" These are things that people said to me. Basically, what I tried to do was become wallpaper. I did not want to talk about it. People talked to me about it. Short story, buddy of mine was at the VFW, this was in the (19)70s, Vietnam veteran. He was the kind of guy that would go in there and say, "I do not give a damn if you accept me as a veteran. I am joining. Here is my DD 214, now sign me up." They signed him up. He became active. He came like vice president, vice commander, whatever they call that. And he would drag guys like me there to join. I mean, that is a good veteran. He is a good member of any organization. And one night he dragged me to the VFW in Downingtown. And I am sitting at the bar and my friend is going around the bar talking to his buddies. And he has told the bartender, whose name was Bernie, I will never forget, "Bernie, get this guy an application. He is with me," like that. No application; drinks, no application. Finally, he goes, "Hey Bernie, give this guy an application. He wants to join." Now, he did not ask me if I wanted to join. He just wanted to get the application in my hand. Guy sitting over to my left said, "I think we have enough Vietnam veterans in this club." Not under his breath. And then there was that missing shock that did not come. Nobody said anything to him, like, "Shut your face," or, "You are out of line." None of that happened. My friend, I am expecting him to go ballistic, but nobody else did. So I pushed my drink back towards the bar and I said, "I am out of here." And I never walked back into that VFW again until the night I joined the VVF, which had to be, I do not know, 15 years later. And that happened. And people will say, "Well, cannot you forgive?" Yeah, we did. We forgave these guys. That is why the veteran’s organizations today are so good. And that is why these guys coming up from first Persian Gulf War to this one now, it is going to be much better. We paved the way for these things to work for them. There is my answer to your question. SM: And of course, that experience you had with the World War II vets, and then you had to deal with all these Americans who treated the vets poorly upon their return and trying to figure out why... in your estimation, as to why vets were treated poorly upon their return, do you think it went back to how the media portrayed the vets in terms on the news, the bad things that happened in Vietnam, whether it be the My Lai massacre, the drug scene, as we got into the late (19)60s? And actually, there was a lot of people did not want to fight in the late (19)60s that were actually over there. When you look at the American population as the whole, and their very poor treatment of Vietnam vets, I know each one has their own individual story, and probably each person has their reason for not treating vets properly, but in general terms, why do you think Americans treated vets so poorly upon their return? JM: They were confusing the war with the warrior. They did not like the war, so ergo, we were the problem. And a couple young people would confront me in my lifetime, I should say, and ask me, "Why did not I not go? Why did not I just stand up and say, 'I am not going'"? Well, I was in the Army. They would court-martial you, they would throw you in jail for that. "Well, if I would have been in the service, that is what I would have done." I said, "But you are not in the service. You have this right to say this. I do not have that choice. When I signed up for the army, I gave away, in my mind, the rights to do that." And I pretty much always would never do anything that I could not live with. I could not live with that, saying, "Well, I am not going to fight. I am not going to go to Vietnam. Even though you are trying to send me over there, forget about it. I will not go." I could not live with that decision. I would not be happy today if I would have made that decision. SM: Would you agree that one of the commonalities of all veterans, no matter what war they faced, and that would be World War II vets, Korea, Vietnam, and maybe even the Gulf War and the young people coming back today from Iraq, is that it is such a private thing that oftentimes vets in general just keep quiet and do not tell themselves... Because it is all too common now in the stories of World War II vets about parents who never came back and told their families about anything. They just went on with their lives. Korean War vets were that way as well. We know about the Vietnam vets. Is this just something that is common to the warrior? JM: Yeah. I once wrote that silence is the language of the veteran. We know silence and we are more comfortable with it. I did not talk about it. I was with the Rotary Club of Downingtown for nine years. And after I made my transformation into becoming a veteran, I spoke in front of them and I said to them, "My name is John Morris. I am a Vietnam veteran." That group never heard that from me before. Yeah, that silence is our language. We were comfortable with it. We were miserable in it, but it is more comfortable sometimes than talking. I know if I start talking to a veteran and I can just see he is uncomfortable talking, we drift right into silence. And it is that acceptance, that thing, "I am not going to make you talk, sir." Fine. I understand. It is that acceptance that works. SM: In conclusion here, could you just state your name again and your date of birth and what you are currently doing and where you live? JM: My name is John Morris. I was born 11/29/45. I work selling concrete products for Binkley and Ober in Lancaster, and I live in Downingtown. SM: And also, and proudly state your position with VVA, because I know you are an ... John, you are. You are an outstanding citizen of Chester County, and just some of the things that you have done once you joined the veteran organizations and what you have done for vets over these past few years. JM: Currently, I am on the board of directors, have been for about five years. I am just finished my eighth year of writing a monthly newsletter we call the Voice of 436. I am fortunate enough to have the local newspaper, daily local news, republish my articles that I write in that newsletter. I have been in every chair there is for the Vietnam Veterans of America. I have been the vice president, I have been the president. One of my proudest moments as president was working with Steve McKiernan to bring The Wall That Heals here to West Chester University. I think of that as my crowning moment, as my year of ... as a veteran. The other things we do, I work with other newsletter editors throughout the country. We swap our magazines and we trade ideas, things like that. Other than that, I think I have a few other things, but that is pretty much got it covered. SM: Well, John, I just want to say, as I always do when I see you and all Vietnam vets, welcome home. JM: Thank you, Steve. SM: And thank you very much for the opportunity to interview you. JM: My pleasure. SM: ...with that in mind, when you think of the 1960s, and actually when you think of your youth, what is the first thing that comes to your mind for that entire period? JM: My military service, of course, without a doubt. And that was (19)65, (19)67. SM: Explain a little more detail why that was the defining moment in your youth. JM: It was when I left home. I graduated high school, went on to college, and then got a job going to night school, and bam, suddenly I was out of town, and not on a vacation to Atlantic City. I got to see a piece of the country that had the culture, that had no idea existed. SM: What culture was that? JM: It would be a culture where you saw people who had never worn shoes before they were drafted into the military, they came from the boondocks; a culture where the Civil War was not ancient history, it was current history, things like that. SM: And the community that you were stationed in that you saw this? JM: Everywhere from, let us say, Fort Gordon, Georgia... we are talking about the military community, to Fort Bliss, El Paso, Texas. For example, when I got to El Paso, there were signs above the restroom doors in the train station that said, "Whites" and "Colored." And it was like you might have seen that in the (19)60s on a newspaper during the marches, but it was like that is on TV, but damn, this really exists. SM: How were you treated as members of the military during the time you were stationed there? JM: The people treated us extremely well. El Paso, Texas is a military town. Fort Bliss, Fort Bliss at that time was probably the largest military installation in the United States. Something like 65,000 troops were there. It is huge, absolutely huge. And it was also a ... not just Fort Bliss, but it was also an Air Force base, a strategic air command base built up against it, and White Sands Missile Range, which is also up against it. So you could drive for 100 miles and not leave to the military installation. SM: How many years you was stationed there? JM: Almost a full two years. SM: And those two years, again, were... JM: Two years were 1965, September (19)65, to September (19)67. SM: When you think of that particular period and you think of the boomer generation, one of the things that comes to mind often amongst people in that age group is that they felt they were the most unique generation in American history, that they were the generation that was going to change the world for the better, a generation that was going to end, racism, sexism, poverty, end all wars, bring peace to the world, bring general harmony. And this is the commentary not of boomers as they age, but boomers when they were young. Your thoughts on that kind of a mentality from the (19)60s and (19)70s? JM: At least my viewpoint was there was nothing that this country could not do. Putting a man on the moon, not a problem. We had the engineering, we had the talent, we had the vision, we could do it all. I found myself working for GE Missile and Space in Philadelphia, doing nothing significant other than playing with these things, which were eventually to become warheads. And that was just the way it was. Every now and then you would have somebody try to picket a building that we were working in because we were making nuclear nose guns. That is fine with me. I am glad we are making them, and I am glad we are making them better than the other guys, I hope. And that is the way I looked at that. But a different kind of a mindset I think than [inaudible 00:16:39] but again, it was a positive attitude that we could do things. Again, it was also the realization that there is this tide of, "Let us get rid of this racial persecution. It is terrible." And for the most part, it was like I never really cognizant of it. It was not something in our house that was done except the N word, as they say today, was periodically used. And when I went into the military, again in (19)65, I left a lily-white environment, for the most part, into a racially more integrated military than you would find in my neighborhood, I think. SM: Your neighborhood is? JM: My neighborhood is northeast Philadelphia. I do not remember the year, but I remember it was either in (19)57 or it would have been like 1960 when Northeast High first opened up, or one of the first early years of it. And one of the Black teachers had her son transfer in, and he was the first Black student. And again, Northeast High was huge. We had about 3,800 students in that high school, and one kid was Black. And it was nothing like, "Oh, that is unusual." And that was it. But it was one of those things that you remember. SM: One of the things in recent years from pundits on television or around the radio, whether they be George Will or when Newt Gingrich took over in the Republican Revolution, (19)94, you heard the commentary, that there is an overall criticism of the boomer generation as the reason why we have so many problems in this world today and why our culture has, some would say, gone backward. And this is not me, this is others. The criticisms are leveled at the breakup of the family, the use of drugs, disrespect for authority, and all these other things. Your thoughts on the pundits of the world who will generalize the boomer generation as being more negative than positive with respect to our culture today? JM: I would have to say that it was not so much them as the media and the media revolution. Everybody by the (19)60s had one TV in the house. I grew up with a TV in the house from 1949. I remember us having a TV when we lived in South Philly, and I remember neighbors coming in to watch TV in our house. It was a big deal. Today, our kids run around with cell phones. Our children run around with cell phones. But the communications revolution has been, I think, a major player in the perception of what the boomer culture was for, was against, and was it 80 percent for or 80 percent against? I think the spin on that came from the media, which I will go to my grave believing is a liberal, left side of the continuum, the political continuum. And they are biased. And I do not stamp all of them as being unethical, but you have got to be balanced in reporting. And I do not think they were balanced, and I think it holds true to today. SM: So you are talking about the (19)60s and 2003? JM: Correct. A huge span of time. And the biggest difference is now that if you want a different slant on what you are seeing, you can go to a different cable channel. You can press a button and you can get the BBC and you will see, "Whoa, wait a second, let me rethink this. I am hearing something different than what I am being spoon-fed every day from Channel 6," I will pick on Channel 6, "every day." It is different if you go to CNN. It is different if you go to nbc.com. It is different if you go to BBC. [inaudible] well, that is a different opinion. But the fact that whoever controlled the media back then really controlled what the people were being fed and educated with. And that is my two cents on the media. SM: So when you are talking about George Will and you are talking about New Gingrich, were they off-key? They were conservatives, packing the liberals. JM: It is like point, counterpoint. On one side, you can have George will, and on the other side you can have George Stephanopoulos. SM: [inaudible] I do not believe somebody is phoning me. Hang on one second. When you look at the boomer generation, could you give me some of the qualities... And by boomers, I mean the young people from the (19)60s and early (19)70s or middle (19)70s. When you look at that generation, what are some of the positive qualities that you saw in these young people, and some of the negative qualities? JM: Again, just I guess the positive ones is that we seemed focused. It was go to college. It was get a career. It was really just try to be that next rung of the socioeconomic ladder than your parents, because the parents would tell us, "I do not want you to work like a dog like me. I want you to get an education. I want you to do good things and get out there." It was a generation of Boy Scouts. It was not so much community service as it was you do the right things. And if you did something wrong, by the way, out on the street doing some mischief, you did not have to worry about your parents coming after you. The neighbors saw you. They would grab you by the scruff of the neck, drag you to your house, then you were really in trouble. But nobody got away with a whole lot. It was the eyes and ears of a community that kept a bunch of the kids straight. Now, there was always a couple of kids who were going to get into trouble, but I think that is what makes us great. Some people get misdirected, some people get to channel it in a different direction and do good things. But it was pretty pleasant. There were the screw-ups that came with the times, and how we viewed it. This is the week of the Kennedy assassination, about 40 years now. That is hard to believe. I mean, sitting here, that is hard to believe, that I am 58. That was 40 years ago. But where were you and what was your action? In hindsight, my actions were deplorable. When I say deplorable, in my family, the Kennedy name was not a very good thing. My father would take his name in vain frequently, which I think he tied back to Kennedy's dad, Joe Kennedy, in the liquor business. My father had a saloon. Actually, both sides of my family were in the booze business before Prohibition, during Prohibition, and until the early (19)70s. So when Kennedy died, I know exactly where it was. I was jubilant almost. And again, I apologize to whoever I offend, but it was like... And I knew who got him, in my mind. It was the military who got him because he did not succeed in turning the missiles away from Cuba. He did it by trading off our missiles in Turkey, which we had six months later. So it was like, what a cowardly thing to do. Again, this is hindsight. What I know now, what I knew then, two different things. And I remember my wife, who lived five doors away, as it turns out, she [inaudible] terrible things on me and said, "Oh, how about Kennedy getting" ... I said, "No loss." And again, this is a very politically aware, historically-oriented person at that time, at the ripe old age of 17, 18, whatever, and saying, "You know what? Hey, I am glad he is gone." Hindsight, I am an idiot. What a terrible thing to say. You would not do that. Even if you truly believe that, you are insensitive, totally insensitive to everyone else who was mourning. And I was in front of Bucky's Sticky Buns, Margaret and Orthodox, in Philadelphia bus station when I got to work. So do you remember where you were? Yes. I can almost smell the sticky buns cooking. SM: Brings it all back from- JM: It does. It really does. It is funny, different things triggered it. Again, this is Kennedy on every channel. But in our house, the Kennedy name was not something that you touted. And after he was assassinated, again, the marksman in me is... I grew up shooting in the Scouts. And I am saying, "The guy is a good shot, but nobody is that good." So to this day, I will still watch who shot Kennedy. And my younger brother who is only 13 months younger than me, if we want to really bug each other, say, "Which time do you want to take?" And we will go at the two-player conspiracy theory, go back and forth. And I am a shooter to this day, and I am extremely good. I do not care what anybody says, there were two shooters, one from the front, one from the back. And I am willing to bet it was the military, some... I will say a general, for lack of a better word, but some general who basically had the same upbringing or background that I was given, that "Kennedy is a bad guy, he sold the country out, the Cuban missile crisis was mistake, the Bay of Pigs invasion [inaudible] Kennedy's doorstep also. We are not going to let this guy do this anymore and make us look like fools." I do not know, but people have been shot for a whole lot less than that. SM: If you were to, again, look at your generation, if you were to list some things, adjectives to describe their positive and negative qualities, what would they be? JM: Focused, forward-looking or forward-thinking, very optimistic, until about the Vietnam War, mid-(19)60s. And then it all came home. I am trying to think of another word... almost idyllic. It went from idyllic to chaotic to unfocused. And I think it almost bred the next generation that came along and said, "I am the me generation. I am not worried about the world. I am worried about me, and I want my share. And I do not care whether you have your share or not." I think it was the (19)80s when they came around and said, "The company is worth more if you sell it off in parts. It may be worth $10 million as an entity by itself, it is worth $20 million to chop it up and sell it. To hell with the people whose lives are affected. Do not care. It is the bottom line. I am a Wharton MBA, and it is strictly business. No offense." My father's words to me was, again, "Go to work for a big company. They will take care of you. You take care of them. And 25 years, you will retire with a gold watch." I saw that die, but that was my upbringing. The happiest day in his life almost is probably when I went to work for General Electric Missile and Space and came back with a $ 10 check, which I guess is worth probably about $100 today, that said... He turned in a suggestion, "We are not going to use it, but hey, keep those ideas coming along. Here is a $10 check." And he was just thrilled to pieces with that. He said, "See, I told you. You take care of them, they will take care of you." And then Secretary of Defense McNamara would open his mouth, kill an Air Force contract, and they would let 2,000 employees go in a heartbeat. Strange times. I think we were a generous generation, and I think we were very much focused on that. Of course, culturally, I think the pill came around in (19)63. Did not do me a whole lot of good. SM: At home or away? JM: Either, either. And I will not go into that detail, thank you. SM: I want to get right into the Vietnam War, especially on college campuses. How important do you feel, in your own personal feelings, the anti-war movement was in ending the war in Vietnam? And anti-war is defined as primarily a lot of college students and youth from that period, as well as priests and political leaders. JM: Boy, like I said, that is a chunk right there. How important were they in bringing the war to an end? SM: Mm-hmm. JM: I think they were very important. And I would have to flip a coin as to whether I hold them accountable for prolonging the war or shortening it. Along those lines, I am thinking, again, it just ties in with today with Iraq. If I was an Iraqi general, I would look back on history and I would say, "You know something? When the American people lost faith that they could win the war, when it was day after day of protracted combat with no light at the end of the tunnel, the Americans gave up." When Nixon decided to pull away from the peace tables and bomb Hanoi- JM: ...From the peace tables and bomb Hanoi. I said, bomb them back to the Stone Age. When 9/11 hit here, my first thought was we were at war, and I am glad my finger is not on the big red nuclear button. Because I would have pressed that sucker just to get even with somebody. Not the right thing to do. Again, this is me, not the 18-year-old, but this is me, the 58-year-old. I look at what happens again with the news media, the coverage of the war, body bags every night. And the station saying, "Hey, a couple of troops were dragged out of their shot-up Humvee and beaten with stones." And then the military comes out with a version that says, "That did not happen." "The wounds they suffered were..." And again, that is today, the story will change again tomorrow. "Was caused by the impact of the blast," or whatever. I think if I was Ho Chi Minh, and I think you can go back and check his history notes, you will find he was ready for a 100-year war. They have been fighting for a hundred years. If it was not the Chinese, it was the French. If it was not the French, he will take on whoever comes along. Iraq is probably the same thing. They got the Sunni, the Shia, the Basque. It is the same thing. They have been fighting each other for years. You do not walk into the middle of the Civil War. It is just a nasty turf. Ho Chi Minh, I am sure him and his followers sat there and said "You know something? We can take a bombing, but we can watch them rioting in the streets. We can watch them protesting on the campuses and it is just a matter of time. They ain't going to go. And we just have to wait them out." And again, with the electronic revolution, I said, our troops are watching this thing. It is not us watching them in Vietnam on 24-hour old footage. It is they are watching us live on a satellite down link to a phone in their hands. They are watching us protest. What kind of support is that? When you make a decision to send troops into battle, you support them a hundred percent. You do not give aid and comfort to the enemy. To see a picture of Jane Fonda over there. And I am just like, I know what she was feeling, but what was she thinking, when she sat on an anti-aircraft gun? She is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. And God bless America, she can do that. But if you are at war, realize that, if that had been World War II, the previous generation, the greatest generation. She would have been tagged with the name of Hanoi Jane as opposed to Axis Sally, or, what was the other one? Axis Sally and Tokyo Rose, and she would have done jail time. If they would have caught her back in the country. That was the generation that brought me into the world. And then all of a sudden what went differently that people would allow the First Amendment to be stretched that far, that we would not support the troops. Different story. SM: When you look at the movements of the time when you were young, because there were a lot of movements in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. Obviously the Civil Rights movement was in the (19)50s, when you were even a lot younger. And of course the anti-war movement and the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, Chicano movement, Native American movement, environmental movement, a lot of movements during that era. Is there one movement that you think truly does define the boomer generation and truly defines America? When you think of the youth of the (19)60s, and when I say youth of the (19)60s, I mean people who were born and obviously raised in the late (19)40s and (19)50s through their mid (19)60s and then of course going to college in the (19)60s and (19)70s. So what movement would you say, is there one that stands out? JM: There was several that stand out. Number one, all the Vietnam vets. Every last one of them. And I think there were like, I do not know the numbers, probably 3 million of them. And again, guys like myself who I got orders for Vietnam and never went, had to go, got very lucky. But I did my battle on Temple University's campus. Again, I got out in (19)67, went to Temple University, back to school, (19)68, (19)69 and (19)70. The height of the anti-war movement. The cubicles next to our, we had a group called Veterans at Temple, just veterans who gathered together because we did not fit in. We were not your normal students. Besides being older, we had just seen a whole lot of other stuff. We had been outside the campus. We had left home, and come back. But next to us we had Students for a Democratic Society, we had Veterans Against the War, Veterans at Temple. We had some Black student league, I think was the name of the first Black organization on campus. There was a Black veterans' organization we also had who banded together in our own group, strictly Black, strictly veteran, strictly to become teachers and go back and teach their own, and pull them out of the ghetto. So a unique environment. SM: So you are really Civil Rights, or anti-war was there or... JM: Civil Rights was huge. Absolutely huge in the (19)60s and the war movement were probably the two biggest movements. I do not think the women's movement was that big. And again, I hope nobody horse whips me for blasphemy, but I am going back into history. I remember saying in high school, I had no problem with a woman getting a scholarship to college if she takes it and does more with it than just marry a guy. If she uses that education. Because for the most part, and to this day I know it, women are far smarter than guys. I do not know, we are good for hunting and getting dirty, but I think ounce for ounce, women have a certain intellectual evolutionary advantage on thinking on the guys. And I do not know what, it is all testosterone or lack thereof or what. But I remember feeling that. SM: Do you remember at the time, did you sense that when you were at Temple University that there was a togetherness amongst the African American students who were fighting for civil rights and certainly there were many white students who were in Freedom Summer. And was there ever a split where African American students went to strictly work on civil rights and white students went to work on the anti-war movement? Did you see that at Temple when you were there, particularly in the late (19)60s? JM: I would say so. I recall my disassociation from the Black movement. I forget who the speaker was, but Cecil Moore, who now has a street named after him in Philadelphia and his entourage of thugs/bodyguards, came to some kind of a demonstration on campus. And literally one of those guys shoved me out of the way, from the back. Like cold cocking me. Well, I turned around and I was going to take a shot at the guy, but again, I learned something in the army, you do not take on an army if you are a patrol of one. He had the biggest guys surrounding him. And the Black movement was getting very militaristic. You had the Black Panthers for a number of years already. I felt unsafe on Temple's campus. Matter fact, my only word to my daughter to this day, I will swear to it. And so will she. She had her choice in any college she could go to take that thing from Bill Cosby. And I said, "You can go to any college you want." Bill Cosby chose Temple. I had no choice. I took Temple, the only one I could afford under the GI Bill. There was no way in hell I would let her go to Temple University's campus. To this day, I think it is unsafe. When I was there, it was unsafe. A white student was gunned down two hours before I was across the same spot by a bunch of kids who just wanted to kill a whitey. Memories of the (19)60s? Yeah, those are some of the memories I had. There was that schism. I do not think any the Black students were doing anything other than saying we are not going to go to Vietnam, because I think the rumor was, percentage wise, they were directly more Blacks than Whites. To this day, I do not believe that I is true. And I think the statistics of whoever you check will go one way or the other. But it is not like 90 percent, it is more like you want to be 40 percent or you want to be 60 percent? SM: I am going to get into another area here, commentary. When you look at the Vietnam Memorial itself, the Vietnam Memorial is one of the greatest things that has ever happened to America. I am pretty biased on that. This is your interview though. JM: Yeah. SM: How do you feel the Vietnam Memorial has done with respect to the Vietnam veteran and their families, number one, but secondly, what the wall has done for America as a nation? Have we healed? JM: I think we are still healing. I think it has been tremendous. I remember personally being against the design when I first saw it. I do not think you can appreciate it until you go there. And that is like watching TV, that is one thing. You actually go there, whoa, that is a different thing. It is priceless. And the impact I think it has will probably go one for at least another a hundred years. It will be like, who do you go to see? Do you go to see the Lincoln Memorial? No. You go to see the Vietnam Memorial. It was a turning point in our country's history, when people suddenly again stood up, took notice, and either pro or con, voiced their opposition or voiced their favor, and clashed over it. And I think the last time that happened was the Civil War. Indeed, it pitted family against family. Well, Vietnam did the same thing. You had in the same family. Brother, pro-war, sister, peacenik. In the same family. And a lot of them took years to mend from that animosity. And that wall, I think it just has shown its healing effect. SM: One of the questions I have asked everyone in the interview process is, I have actually gone out and dwelled on the issue of healing. Because how important is it, with respect to the future of our nation. And what do veterans owe society to give back? What do people who were against the war owe society to give back? Overall with respect to healing, do you still feel, and I know I have a leading question here. That the divisions were so strong at that time in so many different ways, talking (19)60s and through the early (19)70s, that I think those divisions are still present in our society today because no one forgives? No one forgets, no one forgives. JM: No one forgets, no one forgives and it is just under the surface, it is just under the skin. Scratch it and it will surface. Again, yeah, we are looking back in retrospect, a lot of things that I did I would not do today. For example, there were anti-war marchers who blocked the staircase in one of the buildings on Temple's campus because a recruiter was there. You are not going to stop me from going to see a recruiter. We are talking about a company recruiter, a GE or DuPont or whatever. I basically stomped up the whole staircase stomping on my fellow students because they were getting in my face. And I was telling them, no you are not. In hindsight, I probably would have talked a little bit more, probably should have talked a little bit more, but I was just pissed. And it is like when you are young, you know everything. And when you are older, the more you realize that you do not know everything. Again, as hindsight is 20/20. SM: People have even asked me as a person who was not a vet. One of the things that I learned early that to gain trust of Vietnam vets or Vietnam era vets is to say who you are, where you were, and why you did not serve. And I have been very honest my whole life about that. Breaking an arm and there is a lot of things there. I will not go into that. But getting back to the healing process, when people go to the wall who did not serve in the war. It is my perception that there is a lot of guilt feelings, amongst individuals who now upon being older are reflecting on what they did. But not necessarily the true anti-war protestor, they got arrested, were in the service. And was really against the war. Your thoughts on whether there are guilt feelings and whether Vietnam vets feel that there are a lot of guilt feelings amongst the boomer males who did not serve? JM: Good question. Again, I know there are Vietnam vets who have guilt feelings about admitting that they are Vietnam vets, because they were not in a combat role over there. And I am one of those, and what do I tell people that "Gee, you are a Vietnam War vet. Where were you, Pleiku, Da Nang?" I said, "No, El Paso, Texas. Beautiful Fort Bliss, El Paso, Texas." And as great as I thought I had it, I know one guy who was a lifeguard in Hawaii for his tour. So it is the flip of the coin. I was in orders once; the orders were shot down. Two guys on one side, one guy on the other, they are in action. Whether they alive today or not, I do not know. It was the luck of the draw. I think there were people who went to Canada, and then Carter gave them an amnesty. And I think that changed history right there. Where if you would ask me would I allow my daughter to be drafted, and would I tell her "No, go to Canada." I do not think I would tell him to go to Canada. We would have the discussion. We really would, "Do you want to do government service as an alternative? Do you want to do like Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay?" He basically said, "You can take my prize fighting title, and you can send me to jail. I ain't going." I respected that. The ones who basically said, "Nope, I am going to Canada." I do not hold them as high as Ali. But it is like there is a ranking. It is not just everybody into certain categories. If there was extreme religious reasons, for one. But the times I think really changed with Carter's amnesty as to how we need to look at that question. The precedent has been set. We can run, just 50 bucks to get you across the border. And you are safe for the duration, which we are pretty darn sure is not going to be another 10-year war. I do not think we will ever do that again. which is why I do not think Iraq will run 10 years. Closer more to 10 months. Where we get to the point that says, "We are declaring victory." As we probably should have done it in Vietnam, and then leave. Or you bomb them back to the Stone Age and open up a jihad that the world has never seen before. It is going to go one way or the other. It might be Armageddon. All I know is there was the Cold War that we grew up with, with nuclear annihilation, just a shadow away. And then we went to this new war, that we have been fighting since I think the (19)80s and the (19)90s, which is a religious war that we are still fighting. And people are just realizing this war did not happen... The World Trade Tower was hit with a car bomb, a truck bomb in (19)93, not 2001. 2001 was a couple of years back. That plane was targeted, those buildings were targeted years ago. And we have been taking hits. A lot of it, we cannot prove, a lot of what we can prove. But we are in a totally new communications and literally a global world war. This is a world war like no one has ever seen before. Make World War II look like a turkey shoot. This is going to be huge, and it is going to be huge, and it is religiously driven. Which means in our country, we open our doors to everybody. SM: How does the Vietnam War have the continuous relevance in our society today with all these, the war on terrorism, Iraq and 9/11? I can answer that personally myself, but I want other people to answer that. Does the experience of the Vietnam War have lasting and forever impact on America? JM: Looking back at it, the Vietnam War, and again in hindsight, is if I decide to go to war, I turn it over to our military men. And I basically say, "This is what I want done, do it." I do not say you cannot go above the 38th parallel in Korea, as in the Korean War, you fight wherever the enemy is. And by the way, you do not fight on your turf. You fight on their turf. Vietnam, classic example of a screw-up of not looking at history. We had North and South Korea, it was a civil war. We have North and South Vietnam. And we could not bomb North Vietnam for the longest time. I would have bombed them back to the Stone Age. If I could not buy them off economically. I mean, my first move is to take B52's and load them with food and radios, and I drop them on the enemy. Take a look what the rest of the world is doing, and have a good meal while you are doing it. And here goes $50 million, let me buy you out of a war. We can reach an agreement. Now if I cannot do that, if I have to go to war, it is not an interdiction. I would ask the military, I would say, "This is what I want to accomplish. Do it. And you have no limits. Get it done." They will come to me with the game plan, and it gets a political decision. We either go to war or we do not. But before we put one service man at risk, we make that decision. It is all or nothing. SM: I am going to switch this. JM: Again, it is an evolutionary thing. Where we are at right now is a global conflict. And I do not think the media is playing it up. The media is just basically saying, "We are in Iraq." Yeah, but they are blowing up in the Philippines, Muslims. They are blowing up here. Whether it is just Muslims or whether it is the... I am not sure [inaudible] just off the African coast. But if you have a religious war, guess what, that is nothing new. We have got the crusades. Go back before that. It just goes back way-way-way back. SM: Got the ongoing battle in Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics. JM: The Israelis and the Palestinians. When was the seven-day war? SM: (19)67. JM: (19)67? SM: Yep. JM: Okay. I was a Jewish chaplain's assistant in a country at war with Vietnam, with an allegiance to Israel, a religious allegiance. We had a contingent of Israeli Air Force taking this training, the same missile training I had taken. And the debate was, "How do we get off the fort? How do we get to Israel? How do we fight for a war that we could personally relate to?" The war ended before anybody could do anything really stupid. But boy that was a piece of history right there. The conflict that you are presented with, do I go to Canada? No. My case was "Do I go to Israel?" I mean that was the only thought in my mind. SM: There is a good point there. Because I am not sure anything has been written that much on our Jewish Vietnam era or Vietnam vets who truly cared about what was going on in Israel in 1967. They were willing to go over there and risk their lives as American citizens to help the Israeli citizens. JM: And just an aside, in basic training, one of the first formations we went to after we got to Fort Jackson, or Fort Gordon, Georgia, for training, was a chaplain's orientation. And they basically announced, okay, all the Catholic troops over here, the Catholic chaplain will see you, and all the Protestants and all the Baptists. And oh, by the way, if there are any Jewish personnel, the Jewish chaplain's assistant will meet you over here. Then they dismiss back to the company level and our company commander says, "Okay guys, I have had all the Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, whatever. Oh, by the way, are there any Jewish personnel? Please step forward." 10 of us stepped forward in our company. And he stepped back, literally stepped back, and said "Jewish, right?" said, "Yeah." He says, "How did I get 10 Jews in my company? I do not think there are ten in the whole fort." Uh oh. But as it turned out, he was just being... But again, from his vision, his perspective, he usually was used to maybe one or two. Again, percentage wise, the population, but here they were drafted out of Philadelphia, New York City, Jewish ghettos. SM: Right. Yeah. I knew a lot of Jewish Vietnam vets in Philly. Lots. I want to, before I get into the next segment of the interview, since you served the late (19)60s. JM: Mid (19)60s. SM: Or mid (19)60s, when that helicopter, when the news was showing on April 30th, 1975, the final evacuation of the few Americans that were left in Saigon. And then of course their allies there, the South Vietnamese troops and families that were linked to America. What were your thoughts when that was on the nightly news? JM: Thank God the war is over. The retreat is over. To me, that was the end of the war. We were literally pulling out the last troops and the war was over. We had lost the war. We had left with our tail tucked between our legs, and the war was over. It really was a good feeling knowing it was over, and to me that was at the end of the discussion. There would be no other photographs of Vietnam. No, it was over. SM: No thought of what might happen to those who were left behind and... JM: Yeah, I had thoughts about that and my thoughts were that they would be treated no better or worse than the Korean vets. If they were in custody, they would eventually be turned over, repatriated. We would have found out that they were grossly mistreated, because that is the way it has played in the Third World nations. It is the nature of the beast, the Japs did it in World War 2. The Germans did not mistreat the prisoners, military prisoners, but that was a separate little niche. Korea was a different story. Vietnam was a different story. I think you see the same mistreatment now in Iraq or Afghanistan. I think Mogadishu is, I guess, the one that goes back about 15 years, maybe? We were trapped there for a while. But Mogadishu, they dragged that trooper through the streets. The press played that up, and at that point it was, we were declaring victory in Mogadishu and getting out of town. Because we were not going to make a stand here. It is a civil war, it is warlord against warlord. We learned from Vietnam, we are not going to get involved in that again, it ain't worth it. SM: Following up on what you just said. When you think about when President George Bush Sr. Was president, in the Gulf War, we heard a lot about, even in Ronald Reagan's administration, that the Vietnam syndrome is over. And George Bush emphatically stated that the Vietnam syndrome was over. What do you think he meant by that? We all know what the Vietnam syndrome means, but was he prophetic or was he not telling the truth? Because it seems like there is still constant references back to Vietnam no matter what conflict we get into? JM: And I think that has to be said. Because it is the yard stick by which you measure, I guess, two things. How you execute a war, and how you treat the veterans who return. The war in Vietnam was prosecuted poorly. Reasons aside, that is political. It was militarily executed poorly, and the troops were basically shunned by their own people when they returned. After the 100-day war in Iraq, George Bush Sr., there was a full military parade. And it was like, yes, the objective was to get him out of Kuwait. That was done. The troops did an outstanding job. It was a military victory, clear cut without any argument whatsoever. And the troops were welcomed home. I believe the Vietnam troops led the parade in Washington DC, as their homecoming. And to people who have not been in the military, perhaps it does not mean anything. But to those who have served, there was that camaraderie, loyalty of saying, yeah, you recognized that whether we served as a lifeguard in Hawaii or a chaplain's assistant in El Paso, Texas, we put our lives on the line. I mean, I volunteered. I was asked to serve the chaplain. With the [inaudible], it is the same. Hey, let us face it, you are an expert rifleman, and you know how to drive, and I will probably get sent there and that is what you will be doing, is being my bodyguard. That is the only way you would describe it, I did not have to go. My military specialty at that point was a Nike Hercules missile crewman. 30-foot rocket. It only goes to Korea or Germany, fairly decent duty assignments. And nobody is shooting at you. Or I took Plan B, which is be the chaplain's assistant, and run the risk. SM: Did you volunteer? Or were you drafted? JM: I was drafted. But by the way, that is another thing. That it was surprising how many people who, oh, they watched either the football game or they listened to Bandstand. They had no idea that when the president upped the draft, the Secretary of Defense of McNamara upped the draft 50,000 a month. I mean, I knew. But when he did that, I called the draft board. I knew my number was out there, and I had been looking at different military branches. The Air Force offered me a seven-year deal, to a 20-year-old, "We will send you back to college. But you have got to get another degree, can only take it two or three years to do it. You give us four years after that." That is what, six, seven years? To a 20-year-old? That is one third of your life. And I said, "What else have we got out here?" The joke of it was I took my chances with the draft, thinking that military intelligence would make a wise decision how to use Private Mo Green. Again. Got lucky. SM: You have said a lot of things here. If someone were to ask you tomorrow at work, come in and there is a survey done, and "Please write down in one sentence the reason why we lost the Vietnam War." Why did we lose the Vietnam War? JM: Failure to pursue a military victory. And total failure to support the troops on the line by the civilian population. SM: If you were to evaluate the military leadership, not the civilian, and that is certainly the President of the United States, who gets a lot of criticism, but if you were... SM: ...and certainly the President of the United States, who gets a lot of criticism. If you were to evaluate the military leaders, the General- JM: William Westmoreland [inaudible]- SM: ...William Westmoreland and Abrams, and even Maxwell Taylor early on, how would you rate them, and their leaders underneath? JM: Yeah. Probably a little foolhardy and a little ignorant of history, or more concerned with their career and not arguing back, and I do not know that they did or did not, with the presidents, saying, "Let us not do this. What do you want me to do there? You do not want me to go into North Vietnam? Where is the enemy? North Vietnam, that is where I am going. If you do not want me to go there, let us not [inaudible]." Again, you can have the general spout off like MacArthur did to Truman in Korea, saying, "I am going up there, I am going to raise hell." I think that would have worked. I do not think the Chinese would have flowed across the border if they really thought we were serious. Now, they did. But I think at that point they said like, "They are not going to nuke us." I would have nuked the Chinese. I will tell you that right now. I would have nuked them. I would have done the same thing that was proposed by some generals, to put nuclear minefields between the north and the south; hindsight, really stupid. Probably a bad idea. It is like building canals using nuclear devices. If you do not mind the leftover radiation in the canal, not a problem. Very effective way of doing it. I would have used nuclear blackmail. I would have drawn a line in the sand and said, "Hey, you go back and you stay up there and we work these things out. And oh by the way, here is 20 million bucks, and all the rice you can eat, and education for your people." And that is cheaper than a war. SM: That is exactly some of the criticism leveled at Barry Goldwater and the reason why he did not win the election, because they had that one advertisement that showed the little girl. It was only shown once, and it really cost him probably the election. It made him look like a warmonger. And President Johnson followed suit with the Gulf of Tonkin. JM: "In your heart, you know he is right," was the Republican defense for him. And the counterculture said, "In your guts, you know he is nuts." Boy, it is coming back like was yesterday. SM: He did not turn out to be a bad senator, either. JM: No. SM: And this is just a note, I find it very ironic that he and Senator Scott of Pennsylvania were the two senators that walked in and asked Nixon to resign. What irony, what irony. JM: I recall Senator Scott coming to General Electric when I was working there in (19)65. I had gotten out of school, was an electronics technician working in GE, and I remember telling him, "Do not go into Vietnam. If you are going to do it, do not do it like Korea." That is all I said to him. But I literally had the handshake and told the guy. I remember telling a college professor, we got [inaudible] talking about the Vietnam War. This is (19)64. I said, "I hope we do not do it like Korea." As it turns out, he was a Korean War vet. He said, "You do not know what war's like." I said, "You are right, but I know you do not fight it like you fought Korea. You do not draw a line and say, 'You can escape over there.'" I said, "Let me tell you what I am going to do. I am going to kill every one of you, or we make a deal. You want to make a deal? Let us make a deal. We will stop all that stuff. You do not have to lose all of your cities, because by the way, on Monday I am going to take out this one. On Tuesday, I am going to take out this one. You can call it Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or you can call it Seoul. Call it whatever you want. But I will bring you to your knees militarily, and I will do it real quick." I think that is what Colin Powell meant during the 1990 Iraqi war, the Kuwaiti war: "I am going find the leadership, I am going cut its head off, and I am going to kill it." And that is what you do. When you go to war, that is exactly what you do. But you ultimately have to have a game plan. What do you do if things do not go the way you want? Declare victory? Respectable option. Who's to say otherwise? B, go for everything? Or just with withdraw with your tail between your legs? Not an acceptable option. SM: Some might say, though, that cut the head off, you heard this during the Iraq war, you cut the head off by killing all the leaders, but you still got the tail. And we are seeing the tail right now. Even though Saddam Hussein's alive, but if he were gone, this would still be happening. And so I find it interesting, you strongly believe that you would have used strong force and they would have come to their knees, but there is no guarantee they would have, because you explained also the Vietnam War, and then thousands of years and the enemies and we are willing to wait. Do you think that our lack of patience was another reason why we may have lost that war? We had been there a long time, it was a long war. JM: We had been there far too long. World War I was five years long. The Korean War was three years long, not even three years long. Vietnam was over 10 years. And we were not going to do that again. SM: The best history books, they are often written about 50 years after an event. The best World War II books are being written now. There has been a lot of them; Stephen Ambrose, even though he was criticized recently before he died. When the best history books are written about the (19)60s generation, I know a lot of them talk about Vietnam, but it is so part of the boomer generation and how they formed as people in our society, that when the best history books are written, what do you think the historians are going to say about the boomer generation when they were young? JM: They were presented with challenges that people had not been presented with before. And they had to make a decision at a very, very young age. I am sure you could probably go back generation, generation, generation, there is probably a turning point for all of them that they had to come contend with what they can do and what they cannot do. I do not know if that answered the question, but Vietnam, for the (19)60s generation, the boomer generation was it. And it marked people as to whether they said, "Well, I will take my chance with the draft," like I did, or some people said, "You know something? It is more convenient for me to be drafted next week. Let me volunteer for the draft." And other people who said, "I am going to Canada. I am not participating." They opted out. They made a decision to go to another country. That is a tough decision to make at the age of 19, the age of 20. I think the same decision was made during World War II, but we were the victim of a sneak attack. And the perception is it is the right thing to do. We are defending the country. We have been attacked. Vietnam was not we were attacked. We were going there to nation build, we were going there to defend liberty because the domino theory was that eventually... wind up with the commies in Camden and San Francisco. San Francisco would probably be a better breeding ground. SM: Right. Also during the (19)60s, President Nixon had the enemies list and it was a long list and included people from the media, leading activists in the country, Black liberation individuals, Catholic priests, to doctors. JM: [inaudible] sure. SM: What does that say about America too, though, the enemies list of leaders looking at people who do not agree with a foreign policy? [inaudible] ... surveillance of individuals who are against foreign policy or... JM: Now, we are not talking McCarthy in the (19)50s, right? SM: No. No, we are not talking about that period. We are talk- JM: I am looking at it as a continuation of... it is something that in my mind, even back then, it was nothing new. The fact that today we can look back at Kennedy's womanizing after Clinton, it is like, "Well is this something new or was it a cultural thing that was tacitly condoned all these years?" I mean, [inaudible] was supposed to have dalliances with his driver during the war [inaudible] but I just hope... I am not going to say that. This is just a continuation. I think once you crossed... there were certain boundaries, again, with the media, certain things are private, certain things are public. I do not think there is anything now which is private. Now, just a matter of the way you look at it, I myself am looking for a president who is part Boy Scout and also has the ability to look at the enemy in the face and lie through his teeth to the advantage of this country. I need him to lie through his teeth to our people, to our citizens, only in that remote instance where it is to the benefit of the country. But after that, I expect him to be a straight shooter. When Clinton obviously lied with his arms raised up, to me, that was the okay, the cart blanche for all future generations to lie, and sworn testimony does not mean anything, perjury does not mean anything, as long as you can get away with it. And that was condoned by the press. I would have crucified the guy, not what he did, but for lying about it. That is not politics. It is what I expect from a man. I expect a man to be with all the niceties of the gentleman, but with the ability to lie and play poker. But once you have been caught, I expect you to own up. I do not expect you to lie to a court of law. It just sets precedent. And the precedent is now set that they gave him a pass. I would not give him a pass. And I do not know how many of my generation would, other than my wife, who gave him the pass. I looked at her like she is an alien, but we are just diametrically opposed. Is that because I am five years older than her? I do not know. SM: You get into this whole area of leadership and trust, the impact that leaders had on us and boomers in general when we were young, and obviously possibly continuing through as we aged. When you look at President Johnson and the history books of the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, which we do not have to go into that, but we know what happened there. JM: Sure. SM: We know about President Eisenhower, and he did lie to the public about the U-2 incident. He did lie. And I can remember him being a little boy and seeing him on television, and I admired him. We saw President Nixon with his enemies list, which then of course we know about Watergate. Some people claim that even during Reagan in the Iran Contra, but maybe it is more Reagan's people than it is him. And then some people are complaining now about Bush not being up upfront and honest, and Tony Blair and others. What I am basically getting at is, was one of the impacts of the (19)60s and the (19)70s is that we do not trust anybody anymore, or have the American public ever trusted their leaders prior to? JM: Well, I think that they trusted their leaders, and I think they still trust their leaders, but giving them an ounce of doubt today would have been like a ton of doubt before. There has got to be that faith in your leader. But again, and I keep bringing the media into it, the media flavors the doubt, the media builds the doubt, the credibility. And they do it in such an obviously biased manner; and again, my jaundiced view of the world. But if the press says a Republican has done something, I give that 12 ounces worth of credibility, as opposed to if they say it about a Democrat, it is like no credibility at all. They are just not going to say it. So gee, who is more guilty, the Republican or the Democrat? There is probably a shred truth of both of them, but the media will play it up, again, in a biased fashion, condemn one party over the other. And for the life of me, I think they can play both sides of the street, condemn them both, and make twice as much news, but they do not. SM: What influence have you had on your kids? And I share that with respect to all people who were young in the (19)60s and (19)70s and what they passed on to their kids with respect to public service, the ideals that the (19)60s had that we were going to change the world, that everybody is equal; I am going to vote; giving back. We have seen this past week that slogan over and over, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country, which so many young people of the (19)60s and (19)70s took into it. What happened with the boomers, the 770 million who heard that and went through all the experience of civil rights, Vietnam, all those who we have been talking about, and passing this on to their kids who became Generation X? And then we got another generation of kids in here right now. Just your thoughts on that. JM: Well, I have got one of those kids. She is 26 years old. And again, very socially aware, very giving to the community, very generous. And I hope that she got those beautiful thoughts from myself and my wife. I think we passed on all the good stuff. I think she sees me go a little over the edge on occasion. And she recognized that dad's over the edge again. We are talking about a 26-year-old. And got her head screwed on straight and has the values that I have, which I think are pretty good; I am slightly biased [inaudible]. But again, a very generous individual. She will help out fundraising. She has volunteered for... the Coatesville VA Hospital veterans Thanksgiving Day dinner at the Stadium Grill is Thursday. This Thursday? Yeah. She will be working there, just feeding the [inaudible] the hospital. SM: [inaudible]. JM: And she brought that to my attention three years ago. It is an annual outing for us to do that. But that is just typical of what she does. She graduated number one here in West Chester. She could have gone on to a high paying job anywhere. She said, "No, I want to do something else." She helps manage the Chester County SPCA. And she has got a heart of gold. So am I saddened that she did not marry a millionaire and support her daddy in the manner to which he has got accustomed? No-no. But she is very generous and she does want to justice. So it is like big plus, big plus, big plus. And I think all of her friends, to a large extent, are of a similar grain. I think it is a wonderful generation. I think they are looking at what their parents have been through and recognize it and say, "Well, if we can do anything that makes their life easier or avoid making the same mistakes that they have told us not to make," they are pretty good. They have their heads screwed on straight. SM: We hear often from the pundits and the media and everybody else that is out there that the parents rarely share their experiences of their youth with their kids. And if they do, it is either when a person's dying or has had an illness or something as they get older. And we also hear all too often that vets, no matter whether they served in Vietnam or World War II or Korea, just do not like talking about it. But as they age, their stories have to be told, Vietnam era and Vietnam vets. And I will get to that after the interview, about a project that I would like to see Chester County do [inaudible] every single vet that ever served in Vietnam are taped for historic record, male and female. But your thoughts on that in terms of the sharing? Because obviously you have shared. Do you feel just from talking to your veteran friends and maybe some people that did not serve but were on the other side of the anti-war movement, that they have not really sat down with their kids, that their ideals have not been passed down to their kids; what went wrong, kind of thing? What happened? Your story is a positive one, but- JM: Yeah, but [inaudible] I have seen vets in tears publicly in front of their families. Now, in our good old cowboy, Texas president attitude, we do not do that. You do not cry in public. Well, that is dumb. Do anti-war guys of the same generation, same timeframe, do that? They might. I do not think that they do. I do not think that they do. As for talking about the experience, again, there is some guilt that says, "Hey, nobody shot in me. I did not go in the Jones. I partied almost every night. So I do not want to bring that up." I mean, I am comparing myself to a combat vet. And for the most part, there were very few combat vets. An awful lot of people got wounded. 300-some-odd-thousand got wounded. But during that time, that 10-plus-year time span, an awful lot of people went in. It is one of those crazy things. In basic training, I caught a ricochet bullet up against my neck. How close do you want to get? That was an eye-opener, when you say, "You know something? It did not break the skin." It put a little burn mark. I thought, "Bullets are hot." So when you get shot, it is not only, "Ouch, that hurts," but it is like, "Ouch, that burns." So it is like, "Well, how do you tell somebody about that?" Well, I told my daughter. I said, "Hey, touch wood. I am the luckiest guy around. I caught a ricochet and all I got is little burn mark from it." They would not let me keep it either. SM: Oh, my God. JM: But I share everything, except the girls that I dated. But it has helped me build an open relationship with my kids and with their friends. I suspect from the comments that she brings back to me that all parents are not as open with the kids as we are. There is no subject we will not touch. And is it because while we have touched all subjects there is to touch? It has always been, "Talk to me. And you got a question? What about this and what about that?" It is an open relationship with the kids. SM: One last question before I get into the names here, which will be the last third, is very bluntly, what will be the last legacy of the boomer generation, the 70 million born between (19)42 and (19)60 or (19)46 and (19)64, depending on what you want to say, of which 15 percent sociologists will say were ever involved either in service in Vietnam or involved as an activist in any protest movement? So we are talking 85 percent of 70 million who never served and were never involved in any anti-war or any movement of any kind. JM: Can you rephrase it for me [inaudible]- SM: What do you feel the lasting legacy of this generation will be, I guess when they are all gone? I raised this because I am a historian by trade and before I ever got into higher education with my major. And I have read an awful lot of oral histories and thoughts on the Civil War and how the Civil War people never healed. They went to their graves hating the South or the North, never forgiving, although they had had the great ceremonies in Gettysburg where they tried to come together, but many would not. And all too often the sadness that historians have written about the Civil War veterans who just never, ever healed or wanted to heal. And part of the lasting legacy is the sadness of the bitterness that so many of them had when they went to their graves. So just your thoughts on the lasting legacy of a generation. JM: I do not think it would be bitterness going to our graves. I think it is more like we showed the world a different way, or I should say we showed the wrong way to treat veterans returning from a conflict, and to separate the military from the political. The military is a tool to be used with great discretion. And something which is, again, basically a great bunch of people who are willing to put their life on the line and not question the order, to achieve the hopefully correct politics of the country. And it also taught us that you just do not go to war without a game plan. And regardless of how it comes out, the soldiers who returned are the heroes [inaudible]. I do not think anybody will ever go to war again, and this includes the current Iraqi war, without a whole lot of thought and ongoing thought. But the thought has got to be constructive, the actions, the discussions, the politics. Rioting is counterproductive; not rioting, protesting, I think, is counterproductive. I do not think it will be tolerated unless it is done with respect. Again, trusting the politicians, we trust them as far as the next election. We do not have 100 percent faith in them. We know they are not pure. We know they are not perfect. We expect a level of honesty from them and we damn well better get it, or we will vote them out. SM: Which leads right back to trust, just right back to the whole issue of trust and how important it is. Well, the last part of this interview is just going to be your thoughts on names from that era, people who were in different positions, older or younger, during the (19)60s and early (19)70s, just your comments and thoughts on them. The first one is Tom Hayden, who just happened to be on our campus a week and a half ago. JM: And I am sorry I could not make it. He is a protestor. I do not think he helped the war end any sooner. I think he actually added names to the wall by protesting. But I respect his right to protest. SM: How about the other members of that Chicago 8 group? Because it was Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis, and I am going to get into Abbie Hoffman- JM: Abbie Hoffman [inaudible] Bobby Seale. SM: ...Jerry Rubin and Bobby Seale. I will go right into Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin from the Yippies. JM: Yeah, another group. SM: [inaudible] another, different group? JM: I think they could have been far more effective by being far more in suit and tie than clown makeup. I think if they wanted to end the war, as I told people way back when I was on campus, "You want to make a difference, go to senator so-and-so's office. Get an appointment, talk to the guy, send him a postcard. Show him that you are his kid and you have got serious concerns." But the whole idea that tipping over trash cans, setting fires, burning buildings, that creates a backlash and it is counterproductive. Make the system work. The system works. It is not perfect, it is not extremely fast, but it does work. SM: How do you feel about the Black liberation? There was Black power people who were... Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Angela Davis. JM: That is Angela Davis over there, is not it? SM: Yes, it is. She is a professor at University of California Santa Cruz right now. JM: How do I feel about them? SM: Yeah, the whole Black power group. JM: I remember having to step in between a Black soldier and a white soldier during the riots of (19)65 or (19)66, I think. One guy's uncle got I think killed by a Black man. And I stepped between them and said, "Hey, look. We are in the Army. We are a unit, we are together. I know it hurts. And I know the guy used the N word, his uncle, his brother was killed by it." I said, "We have got to stand together." I think that they did the right thing, but again, it is the method that they used. They were far too confrontational, and it was counterproductive. But it could have [inaudible] it was productive. It could have been far more productive, I think, if they would have used Martin Luther King type... If you are looking in a mirror and the only difference is I am Black, I think you are going to have a tough time disagreeing with me if I am using your language, if I am using your wardrobe. Again, I appreciate this is the land we can be different. Thank God for that. But it is like if you want to accomplish a mission, you have got to be willing to make some concessions. SM: It goes right into the other... Of course, you got Martin Luther King, Jr. Then you have got Malcolm X. Those are two central figures of the period. JM: [inaudible] a guy wore a white shirt and tie, excuse me, a white shirt and bow tie, but a jacket. But he was different. If he would have put on a regular necktie, I think it would have been to his benefit, but he was creating a uniform. Good, productive steps and then a counterproductive move could have been more effective. SM: Dr. King, of course, is known as the civil rights leader who became involved in the anti-war movement. In fact, he got heavily criticized in the civil rights movement amongst his peers. Bayard Rustin, right here from West Chester, along with Dr. King, were two of the very few African American leaders who went big time anti-war. And your thoughts on ... Dr. King always [inaudible] Bayard Rustin is that they made the comparison of being Black in America to being the yellow skin over... concerned about people of all colors. Just your thoughts on Dr. King overall, and Bayard Rustin, who were civil rights leaders who were against the war? JM: And again, being against the war, I do not have a problem with that. It is how you manifest that and the effects on the troops who are over there fighting the war. If it is perceived as giving aid, comfort to the enemy, I do not think that is good. I think it is counterproductive, and you are going to make enemies. But talk about a span of time from their days, Martin Luther King's days, if you would have asked Martin Luther King 40 years ago, "We have got this guy named Colin Powell and people are talking about him as being President of the United States and has a big groundswell of support," he would say, " 400 years from now maybe, but not 40" [inaudible]- JM: 400 years from now maybe, but not 40. Hell no. And again, while Colin will not run, if he did, there is no doubt in my mind that he would probably win. He is squeezing. But again, here we are. It is only 40 years later. And how many years was Martin Luther King after the Civil War? That is like, do my math, hundred years. SM: (19)65, right. (19)63. JM: It is a hundred years to him. And that is forty years to Colin Powell [inaudible] Condoleezza Rice. SM: Right. JM: Very powerful, influential people today. Now is that because the media now puts them out front because they are black? I do not care. They are extremely talented individuals by what little I know to judge them by. But that is time. That is communications. SM: Can I take a two-minute break and go to the restroom? JM: Sure. SM: And then we will finish. All right. Make sure this is working properly. It is. All right. Jane Fonda, I know you have been waiting for- JM: I just thought of the- SM: How about that in Washington? JM: And I have seen that at other VFW posts around the country. Again, I know what she was thinking. I know what she was feeling. But what was she thinking? Counterproductive. And I literally rank her with Tokyo Rose, Axis Sally for World War II. As simple as that. What she did was deplorable. if she wanted to give an interview in Hollywood saying, "I have thought about it and I see no reason whatsoever for us to be there. I think it is a big mistake." That is one thing. But to sit there in an anti-aircraft gun in Hanoi while we have got prisoners over there languishing, and giving the photo op. No, no. To me that is, that is treason. SM: How about Benjamin Spock? Dr. Spock, he was involved in the anti-war movement. He was a baby doctor. JM: Yeah. Mr. baby book himself. I do not have any thoughts one way or the other about him, other than saying he was against the war. And I am sure he was in some rallies and stuff like that. But I cannot picture him being here. And other than the suit and tie, he may not have been. But... SM: How about the Berrigan brothers? Daniel and Philip, right from Baltimore. JM: Yeah. SM: But Philip died last year. JM: Yeah. Not a whole lot of thought about him. SM: From the Catholic movement. How about Lyndon Johnson? JM: Lyndon Johnson. I feel sorry for the guy. I think he either just did not ask the right questions or he got somewhat fraudulent, bogus answers from the military. When he asked, again, we can speculate as to what he asked the generals, but like Gulf of Tonkin. That is a fuzzy area that really, I do not believe that somebody said, "Hey, let us Trump up charges that the torpedo votes attacked the Turner Joy, the destroyer." SM: Right? JM: I do not believe that. I think somebody said something. They saw something and relayed, it got a little blown out proportion. Then he made a move, said, "Oh, okay, fine. Well I have got to have congressional war power because we have been fired upon." And he does not have that? I thought he always did. But I think it says as the nuclear commander, he always had the power to declare a war at a button's press. And he had the button. SM: Richard Nixon. JM: Talk about being at the wrong place at the wrong time. I do not hold him in as terrible a position. He got caught trying to do a coverup and he did not fess up. If he would have fessed up, I think he would have stayed in office. Just as Clinton got caught, Clinton did not fess up. He went to whole nine yards and stonewalled, unlike Nixon. So I hold Nixon in at a higher level than I hold Clinton if I am going to rank my presidents. And for that very reason. SM: And of course James Buchanan's the top. Gerald Ford. JM: Gerry Ford, well, I think he was just trying to do the best that he could. Not a whole lot of thought on that. SM: He ended the war. JM: Yeah, But I think the options he were presented was, we can either stick in there another 10 years, we can end it overnight with a nuclear catastrophe, or we just give up as nicely as we can. [inaudible] SM: Hubert Humphrey. JM: Again, I think he is probably a good anti-war advocate as could be described. SM: Spiro Agnew. JM: Piece of [inaudible] comes to mind. Anybody gets caught with their hands in a cookie jar like he got caught... He was a quirky personality. I do not think he could ever have been president other than by Nixon dying. But just I was impressed by his vocabulary, as was everybody. And his sense of humor. But that is all I remember about the guy. SM: How about Eugene McCarthy. JM: Gene McCarthy. SM: Not Joe, Eugene. JM: Yeah. Again, on the flavor of Humphrey. Anti-war, had his reasons, he ended very professionally, if I can use that term, with decency. SM: George McGovern. JM: Not a whole lot of thought on George. SM: Presidential candidate, 1972. JM: Yeah. SM: Symbolized him as the far left. JM: But no. SM: Timothy Leary. JM: Timothy is up there in one of those big clouds of smoke, I am sure. I could never understand him, like I said. And again, you are talking to somebody who I have never taken a drag of a cigarette. Okay. Let alone marijuana. SM: Never inhaled. JM: Never dropped LSD. Can honestly say I probably never inhaled other than might have been secondary. SM: From a rock concert. Yeah. JM: From somebody else. SM: Yeah. JM: Timothy Leary I just told was a nut case. Always did and company always will. SM: John Kennedy. JM: We discussed that earlier, going in. I think, again, because hindsight is 20/20, he is an overrated president. Camelot was almost a Hollywood manifestation by the press. They created an image, they fell on it. See, like all of a sudden, let us do cop shows on TV. Then it lasts about six years, comes back 10 years later. Let us do real life or shows. Let us do trading places. Let us make overage hotels. And here is another one. Let us do the Kennedy's love life. Okay? We cannot do that. So we got kid gloves first thing. What is his face? Clinton came along and all of a sudden, hey, we did not do it Kennedy. But that was then. This is now. He is fair game. But let us not overdo it. We do not want him getting impeached. We just want to play it for as long as we can. Let us wag the dog at the movie ring. SM: How about Robert Kennedy? JM: Robert Kennedy. Mostly kind thoughts about him other than against Sirhan. Killed him, but no great big thoughts one way or the other. Teddy Kennedy I did not particularly care for. SM: What were your thoughts of the general Cao Ky and President Thieu of South Vietnam? Those are the people that come to mind at least after the Diem regime. JM: Yeah, General Ky who I think is still a very, he is still alive in this day. SM: I would like to bring him here to pull it off. JM: Yeah. I think he, like the aristocracy of Vietnam at the time, Was doing whatever he could do to succeed. Whether he was militarily inept or not. I do not know if anybody could be a military genius, a Colin Powell of Vietnam. Unless the circumstances were different. I am glad he came here. I think he probably contributed to the country and is doing whatever he can do to make a buck. Just as he did in Vietnam. SM: Go back to, you see someone that when people remember the most for the longevity. JM: And I am just drawing a blank with him, to be honest with you. SM: Ralph Nader. JM: I bought a Corvair and the car was unsafe at any speed because you could not get it to run half the time. No. Nader, again, I think is like anybody else's. He just, while he wears the suit, he does not wear it well. And in fact you are telling us you have worn the same suit for 20 years, it is probably not the best thing you want to tell us. You would lose credibility. He could have been far more effective with a little bit of coaching. SM: George Wallace. JM: George Wallace. Interesting. I remember being judge of elections in Philadelphia when people were trying to vote for him. And we were told that you have to write his name in because he was not going a ballot in Philadelphia. We had people going crazy. But I respected the truth of what he said. If he said, "I do not want blacks in here," he was telling you, "I do not want blacks in here." Okay. There was honesty about him. I do not think the guy would lie about something like that. Of course, he got paralyzed and shot from that nut job. SM: Daniel Ellsberg. JM: Pentagon Papers, right? SM: Yep. Vietnam vet. JM: Leaking government papers is a no-no. I admire the fact that he did it. I think he could have done it better. Again, hindsight is 20/20. Do not ask me how, I think he could have been far more effective than having himself portrayed as a traitor. SM: How about Robert McNamara? JM: Think that is a guy I do not hold in very high opinion. I think he made a lot of very, very stupid, ill-informed snap decisions that really do not matter a big deal when you are manufacturing cars, but costs tremendously. I think he prolonged the war. I do not think he helped a whole lot. I think he was counterproductive. I think the war would have over far sooner. And if you want to call it a victory, it would have been a victory without McNamara. SM: The women's movement leaders, and you always think of Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan. Those are that kind of the- JM: I think of Bella Abzug, myself. SM: Oh yeah, definitely. JM: Yeah. Some people had credibility, some did not. And I feel sorry for the women's movement when we talk about, well these were the front-runners or the initiators of the women's movement who stood by with President Clinton and basically, by their silence, endorsed his behavior, which says, "Well, the hell with what I have been saying to you folks in the past 30 years." Now stands behind his president, were so forgiving of him and forgiving by their silence. If I was a woman, I would basically tell them all to go jump in a lake. SM: When you are looking at women, it is interesting that during the (19)60s and (19)70s that during all the movements, men are in most of the positions of power and women are in secondary roles. That is why many ended up starting the women's movement. But they have learned from the civil rights movement. How important were women in the (19)50s and (19)60s with respect to not only the women's movement, but other movements, period? And we were finding out now how important they were in Vietnam. They were always important that it took a long time for women to be recognized some of their [inaudible] with respect to their contributions in the Vietnam War. JM: I think the whole idea of, or I should say the growth of use of contraceptives opened the door to women fulfilling themselves to the max. Being in the working world, making a decision to have a career or a family or both on their own terms. I think that was the advantage that came out of the (19)60s was birth control, which totally reshaped what they could do. Again, my biggest argument has always been their far superior to men, mentally speaking. I can still take most of them in fight. SM: Right? JM: Five out of 10 times. SM: Right. JM: But it always been, I have always said it was a waste of intellectual capacity for them to be just barefoot pregnant down on the farm. What a waste. They should be out there. I am thrilled when I see a leader who really excites me, who has got the talent and the guts, the everything. Condoleezza Rice I mentioned. There was a sharp, sharp woman. I would follow her orders into battle if she was a military person like Colin Powell or I believe what she says. She has got that much credibility in her voice. And I do not think she is acting. That that woman is pure talent, pure influence. SM: I am a firm believer that Hillary Clinton and Condoleezza Rice, will be running against each other in four years after Bush is done. JM: Condy will kill her. SM: Well, yeah. And the question is, if President Bush wins, because I think she is going to leave his administration, that is another story to go back and run consent. I just think there is some things going on there. Muhammad Ali. JM: I, looking back at the time, I said, "Boy, is that a dumb thing to do." He could have had it all. He could have done just like Elvis Presley, put a uniform on, be a spec for, tour the camps, be promotional and run [inaudible] machine and still retain his championship. He decided to leave or to not to leave but to serve. I respect his opinion. It was as I believe a religious based opinion, like a total respect for that. I think he should opt for military service. That is his call. SM: People like Ron Kovic and the people like John Kerry, the Vietnam veterans against the war, because when they came back, they were as adamant as Tom Hayden. Your thoughts on them and their involvement in prolonging the war. JM: Again, I think they could have done a better job, but they looked like longhaired, dope smoking, Commie free person. And I have not used that term in what, at least three days. But it is like, again, do not shoot the messenger, however, if the messenger looks like the enemy, you are probably going to take a shot at them. They could have done better. Wearing fatigue shirts, it was very symbolic. But smoking pot and growing your hair long and using F this and F that it is counterproductive because they are far more productive. SM: A lot of them threw their medals away. JM: Yes. SM: Purple hearts. John Kerry being one of them. JM: Yes. SM: The people linked to Watergate, which would be the John Dean. Just your thoughts on him, because he is the guy that brokered everything. JM: It is a fine line. Watergate again, I think was one of those moments in cultural history where the communications media, the press, the news, the TV crossed the line and said, "You know something? We are going to pursue this story. And we do not care whether we find a woman under the bed or a burglar at the door. We are going to take no prisoners. Because we have got to have something for the 11 o'clock news." I think in World War II they would not have done it. They just would not have done it. What, make the President look bad during a time of war? We are not going to do it. But that was that generation. Here we are 60 years later. SM: Great. Barry Goldwater again, I brought him up. He has become a big hero in the conservative movement. Just your thoughts on him. JM: I remember backing Barry in high school. I do not know whether I passed leaflets out at the polling place or something like that. But I remember closely watching it and I very much liked the man's style. I thought he was an honest, straightforward individual. SM: And I am going to finish with just some terms from the, well, one of them is your thoughts on the music, your thoughts on the thoughts on the music of the (19)60s and the thoughts on those musicians and entertainers who were anti-war and the effect that they had on the war itself. JM: I think the musicians served as a rallying point because they were so different. I think they were an easy way to grab the audience. And oh, by the way, the change of music style to acid rock drove me to country western in the (19)60s, which as it turns out, was great because my father-in-law happened to like country western music. Of course he did not become my father-in-law for a couple of years after that. I think they were a tool. Again, the media will focus on Woodstock. It is a happening. It is a gathering. It is the 11 o'clock news. We have got something. And again, who went to these? Kids who were almost ready to be drafted or who were drafted. And I still cannot stand. I can stand rap today a little bit better than I can stand acid rock and I cannot stand acid rock. SM: Did you like Janice Joplin and Jimi Hendrix? JM: Not really. I mean, if I could not follow the music and let us say you are talking to a guy who cannot dance. Let us be honest about this. No, I just thought were, again, they were just tied up with the movement. And who linked them together? The media by accident probably. But it became one and the same. SM: The folk singers were very important in the anti-war movement. Joan Baez, Phil Ochs, Peter, Paul, and Mary, the list goes on and on. Holly Near, I mean, there is many of them. Just your thoughts on the folk musicians and Bob Dylan. They were people that really had an effect. JM: Again, they were part and parcel of the whole culture. I mean, there was another piece that was, gee, are you a long haired, dope smoking Commie, pre [inaudible] rock musician, anti-war protestor. All that shape. And each new layer was added to that. Did they contribute to elongation of the war? Probably a little. I do not think a whole lot. SM: I know at the Vietnam Memorial they have certainly invited some of the musicians or the singers, but that is never been any of the folk singers. Joan Baez at the wall? I do not think so. JM: I think he was here in (19)99. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Morris Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Morris, John ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Interviews; Morris, John--Interviews Description An account of the resource John Morris, a native of Downingtown, PA, joined the Army Security Agency in 1965 and served two years in Vietnam. Following Vietnam, he was stationed at Fort Wolters, Texas, to train other operators in route to Vietnam until 1969. John Morris is a life member and active with the Vietnam Veterans of America. He is also a life member of the Veterans of Foreign War and the Disabled American Veterans. He received the Chapel of the Four Chaplain’s Legion of Honor Award. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-11-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.134a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.134b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 230:02 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8f7c008bfe576da0c3e5a436e77c9ca4.mp3 297878bc8dd73fafb2c5b74afa68be52 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56107">Interview with Dr. John P. Ayers, Veterinarian</a> Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ayres, John P. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Date of Interview 1978-03-04 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Subject LCSH Ayres, John P. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Veterinarians -- Interviews; Farmers -- Interviews; Corbettsville (N.Y.); Agriculture; Food Quality Control Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 32:16 minutes Biographical Text Dr. John P. Ayres talks about his upbringing in Corbettsville, NY, his interests in agriculture and animals in young age that led him to succeed in the fields of farming and veterinary work. He discusses his experiences in the Army, college, and his professional life. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=Ayers.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Dr. John P. Ayres Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of interview: 4 March 1978 Susan: Dr. Ayres, could you start by telling us where you were born, something of your parents and, ah, your early childhood experiences, and then go on with your schooling and how you became a veterinarian? Dr. Ayres: I was born in, ah, Broome County, in Corbettsville, NY, Snake Creek Road, which in those days was a dirt road, and my father didn't own the farm that I was born on, so I presume that makes me a tenant farmer’s son, which seem to make for great relationships and rapport with some people. However, my father had the determination that someday he would own that farm, and he did own the farm and today I own the farm, which is the story that, ah, goes with the majority of people in this country. Ah, my mother was orphaned at—at sixteen and she had, ah, five younger brothers and sisters and, ah, she went to work and supported them and held her family together in turn, so I was therefore blessed with two people that were ideal for parents, because my father was a strong, steady, determined individual, in a rural atmosphere, and had a—had a very happy boyhood on the farm, perhaps the happiest days of my life, and again I emphasize, as a tenant farmer’s son, because ah, having lived 60-plus years I find out that the biggest asset is not being left with money, but being left with pride and responsibility to this government, that we live and enjoy and have the opportunity to develop ourselves to our maximum, and my parents strongly believed that and in those days the farm we had, ah, was primarily a dairy farm, a small dairy farm of a hundred seventy-five acres. Our house had at least four if not five bedrooms, as I recall, and we were, had none of the niceties that we reflect on today. We had three stoves that burned wood, that was our only source of heat and therefore, of course they went out at night and it was a question of my father getting up, perhaps at 4:30 in the morning, as I recall, and getting the first stove started, and then the rest of us coming down one by one and, ah, entering into it. Having no heat in the house, obviously we had no running water. The well for the house was thirty feet from the house, and that was partly the responsibility of us children, to bring the water in—in pails, and the warm water was heated on the tank on the side of the stove, as I recall, and that took care of the acid, of getting the water in. The waste material of the body, the toilet was the common standard privy at the time. It was located twenty feet from the rear of the house, and everything that James, ah, Whitcomb Riley, as I recall he wrote a piece of poetry on “The Passing of the Backhouse,” and that is, ah, one that certainly fills the bill and describes it as accurately as any farmer’s son could. We—ah, my brothers and I had—we were blessed with two brothers and two sisters. We all went to the Corbettsville school, which was a two-room schoolhouse—one floor above the other, and it still stands and is now a residence—and I think that was the first time I realized that I was handicapped. I was handicapped in being left-handed and had a schoolteacher who had one thought, that I would become right-handed and it was a question of wills, and I'm still left-handed today, but I well remember her hitting with the ruler, hitting my left hand with the ruler when I'd use it, and I lived long enough to tell her when I was a fairly successful doctor that—that was the only thing I regretted of that period in school, that she had many valuable assets, but her determination to break me was probably only exceeded by my determination that I wouldn't be broken. That was my first handicap, and there came a time, then, when we left there and moved into Binghamton and left the farm behind, and my father went to work because he couldn't buy that farm for another man at a dollar a day. I remember his wages were a dollar a day, and he was considered to work for that a minimum of ten hours each day, so it was about ten cents an hour he got. Obviously, living in Binghamton and working outside was something couldn't successfully for him, and so he located a job in Kirkwood and operated a feed and coal supply that, ah, took care of the people in the Village of Kirkwood and the farmers throughout there, and it probably was the best thing that period in my life, because again I mention I was blessed with a farmer who could be a businessman, who never thought this country owed him a living. He was grateful for what it offered and he imbued that to us, that we had the opportunity to achieve whatever we wanted. That was a period somewhere between 1925 and 1930 that we were there, and that, in that period, I had many friends there, and I want to emphasize that because I still have, ah, but the outstanding unfortunate thing that happened to me there was in the Kirkwood school, which again was a two room school. I went there and I was the only Catholic boy in eight grades when Al Smith dared to run for President, and I still carry one of the scars over my eye from the beatings I used to take because a Catholic dared to run for President. I laugh now when people tell about minorities and their problems. I don't know what they would do if they were the one in the entire school, ah, but the challenge was there, and today I say, “God Bless it,” because it's the challenges that makes us if we have the guts to rise above them, because of the ones that attacked me in those days, we all lived to forget, though—that period, most of us were kids, we were all kids. We really didn't know what the whole problem was about. It was only what, we were getting it at home and it was through ignorance that we were receiving it, and my side of the question wasn't, of course, was, ah, that someday there was going to be a Catholic President, and I've lived long enough to see one and I'd have to admit that I didn't vote for him when he ran. I—I was one that voted for Richard Nixon [in 1960], so you see, the years have worn off the antagonism that might have developed in my mind so that I would’ve blindly voted for the man of my religion, and instead I voted against him. And of many of those that perhaps were pretty unfriendly at that period, I lived to do their veterinary work, which I think is a challenge to many of us, to overcome the difficulties that we have in our youth. Then I went on from Kirkwood and my father bought the farm I was born on and we went back, we turned to the farm, and from there I—I gradually formed the opinion I would become a veterinarian those years, even when my father had this feed business. I was out working and I bought a horse for eighteen dollars—I bought a horse for eighteen dollars—and I agreed to work for the man eighteen days, and when my father looked over the horse he told me, as a good father should, “You got the horse in effect without my advice. It's not worth bringing it home.” The horse lasted a few months, lasted such a short time that I hadn't earned the payment on the farmer’s farm for it, and my father insisted that I go there after the horse was dead and work it out with the farmer. It was a humiliating thing, but it was the best thing happened to me. If you give a man your word, you keep your word. If you buy something, good or bad, you’re stuck with it. There is no whining, no whimpering or crying out, and I look back and I think that was my first real business transaction that was a complete flop, but I had two parents and neither one relented. I had to go there and pick potatoes in the fields in the fall after the horse was dead until I paid for a dead horse, and so I thoroughly understand the expression about buying a dead horse because I bought one almost dead, with that I formed my opinion on there ought to be a better way to do business that I had done, and I—I think it was a beginning of a challenge to me, because I think each one of these, ah, strengthens my determination to do more. I had dogs in those days, and cats, I always had them as a boy, and ah, we were impoverished, ah, not with the point of pity do I say, but it wasn't considered practical and it wasn't practical to take the dog to a veterinarian in, in those days. So I had a dog with distemper in that town of Kirkwood, and I went and talked with the man about it and he gave me some sulfur to give the dog and he knew it would cure the dog, and well, the dog would throw up, I guess every time I'd push the sulfur down the poor dog, and eventually the dog had fits—he had repeated fits in our home—and the man was corning along that I had talked to, and he was carrying his gun, and I remember as a boy him opening the bedroom window, saying, “That dog has rabies,” and shooting it and splattering the brains over the wall of the bedroom. Of course the dog had distemper and, ah, I guess that again fortified my there must be a better way than this, and— Then we went back to the farm and I raised rabbits. My brothers and I had, at one time, over a hundred rabbits, and we got into other things that—raising calves, and of course we had dairy cattle, and in that transition on the farm from being born there and then coming back years later, I reflect on what a vast difference, how things were changing—when we left that farm we had no running water, we had no inside toilets in the house. We were cold in the winter, we, ah, we had an old broken down car when we left the farm. It was a used car. In the winter when we needed water for the cattle we had a stream, there was a little stream, there was a pipe, brought water outside the barn. The cows would go out to drink, and the pipe would freeze in the winter, so you would have to go down to Snake Creek and cut a hole and drive the cows down through the snow, and they'd slide on the ice and I—I just can't remember any of our cattle breaking legs there, but how many, many cattle I saw afterward did break their legs on the ice trying to get out to drink water where the holes had been cut for them—then when we returned to the farm, all that had changed. We put in a heat within the house, got a new well, added inside plumbing so that my poor mother, for the first time on that farm ever, had running water. We had the same thing at the barn, a well, drinking buckets for the cows, metal stanchions, and the biggest thing of all from the standpoint of quality of milk—and even we could detect that—was, for the first time, we really had electricity and we had the means of quick refrigeration of milk so that we had quality milk. When we left the farm in the summer we had to get ice out of our icehouse that had been put there the previous winter, that we had put there, by cutting it off of the Susquehanna River and hauling it up on big sleighs with the horse. The farmers got together, pooled their efforts and brought this ice home, and then it was covered with sawdust, and then in the summer, piece by piece, it was taken out. It was cleaned off, as best one could, of the sawdust, and put in water to chill the milk down instead—in that period of time of change we had, it was the beginning of quality controlled milk and we had inspectors coming to the farm and the improvement in milk rapidly following. One of my memories there, however, was again the question of veterinary services and a dog I had that would never stay home. He was probably the stud dog of the town of Conklin, and at my end I guess I was sort of proud of him, ’cause he took on many a dog and whipped them. He also got into a bit of trouble, too, of course, got me in and therefore got my family in, and so my family made arrangements for me to take the dog with my oldest brother to this man—now long since dead, so I guess I could tell the story on how the operation, how that dog was castrated—and he took the dog into the barn and he wrapped a chain around the dog's mouth and he told my brother to hold that, and he took out his jackknife and then he deliberately sharpened while I was watching him, and then he just cut the testicles off. There was no tying off blood vessels or nothing, and that dog lingered along for perhaps three or four days before he finally bled to death at our home, and I watched it each day, and my parents didn't know but they thought there was something wrong, but they thought that man had more experience and he assured them that the bleeding would stop, well, it didn't fix it at all. The dog bled to death. So I think that was the final straw in in that aspect of my thinking there must be a better way to do this, and it sort of convinced me that, ah, I was going to do a little more with that, even though I would talk to people about becoming a lawyer, and in due time I went to Cornell, and then I was trying to get one year in and my father had a stroke. He was confined to a wheelchair from then on. The Depression was on us and there was no question about, ah, help in those days. There was no tuition assistance program and again I say, “Thank God there was no tuition assistance program.” I have little respect for the present-day college students who whine for extra money when there are jobs available all over the county for them. I was successful in the veterinarian college. I was given a room in the basement to live in, and I worked for 40¢ an hour and I used to have to sit up nights, watch the mares have colts, and I cleaned laboratory equipment and so forth, and I worked my way through college and I—I came home rarely, because as I say, I, my pride had then, I think, equalled my parents’. I wouldn't ask them for a penny, because I knew they had all the struggling they could trying to maintain the homestead, and with my father in a wheelchair and confined. I learned at that point in life when he had this stroke that—it was interesting, that everyone my father owed money to had it well-documented, people who owed my father, and I knew they did even from the days in the feed business, he didn't have it well-tallied, and many of the people I think owed him never paid him. I think, again, it sort of toughened me to realize life was that way. In fact, I remember one man, he said he owed my father and he said he wanted to work it out in plowing, and he came to our farm and he plowed until he thought the bill was square, and at that time, nor until the time he died, no one ever knew how much he owed my father, and he wouldn't tell us and we didn't know, but it was a question. My father was primarily a dairy man and a smalltime, ah, fellow in this market that we call this outside world, and he wasn't able to cope, so financially, we weren't in a good, ah, set of financial circumstances, not because he didn't work, but because he didn't realize that everything had to be documented. He was, at that point, not businesslike enough in case of catastrophe, which we've all learned we have to be, but it did provide a good basis for me to realize that if I was going to make it at Cornell, I was going to make it on my own, and I did, and I remember the high point of my life in that was when I came home and I gave my mother three hundred dollars, besides going through college, and then I went to New York and worked, and in due time I worked in dog and cat hospitals, and then I came back and went to work for the Dairymen's League—[Clock chimes]---which was a milk company, and I worked for them two years until the Army called me up, and I was five years in the Army. Then I came home and became City Veterinarian of Binghamton, and in that period I had seen the transition, the change that had gone on again, and of course I was then completely on the other side. I was no longer someone from off the farm. I was then a man that had become a doctor of veterinary medicine and served in the ranks of the Army in quality control of foods in general, from the state of Maine to Florida and as far west as Michigan. I served in ranks of Lieutenant and Captain and Major and Lt. Colonel—ah, in fact, when I came home from the Army I was Chief Veterinarian in the First Air Force and I was the youngest veterinarian in it, and the Chief, so I came home with that kind of background to bring about quality control of foods in general in the City of Binghamton and the farms that supplied milk to the city and the milk plants, and found myself pitted to some degree against many of my former acquaintances—I use “acquaintances” rather than “friends” because I, ah—some of them didn't accept change, men who get older, I guess many men don't accept change, especially coming from a younger person—but I remained a city veterinarian for fourteen years before I went with the State. I saw all the changes come about. I saw rabies so bad in Broome County in 1947 that we had over 50 cases of rabies in the city of Binghamton in July of 1947, and I can say in 1977 we didn't have a single case in the city, and the few cases that we do have outside of the city are generally attributed to wildlife, where I'm sure rabies will always exist, but by vaccinations we eliminate that, so that three quarters of the veterinarians in the county have never seen a case of rabies. They talk about it, and we know it's there in wildlife, but we just don't see it. That was accomplished by the use of vaccination, and the same thing is true with the dogs, but I've experienced—in treating my own dog in Kirkwood with distemper and using sulfur, it merely made the dog vomit and had him shot in the head in my bedroom—has changed now by the advent of vaccination, so that no dog need die of distemper, it's a question of, perhaps, our failure to get to the people that can do it. On the other hand, I do think there was a—a stronger character in the people then—if they couldn't afford a veterinarian, they said they couldn't—today many people want the dogs, or want the children, and yet they don't want what goes with them, and so it is part of the work and the responsibility that goes with having pets or having children, you have to have enough responsibility to be willing to sacrifice for them, and sacrifice isn't done by an expression of words, but by acts. Susan: Let's continue, Dr. Ayres, by telling us something about the women in your life. Dr. Ayres: Well, the women in my life start with my mother, and my mother was a school teacher, and in those days it took two short winter courses to become a school teacher and one stayed ahead of one’s students, I believe, and therefore she was the one that instilled into us education was the only way to get ahead in this country, that was the, ah, the best and logical course of events. I can remember when I would be losing the rounds while Al Smith ran for President, this mother of mine’d tell me at home how I could overcome them, and that was only one way, by education, and my mother was proud in the sense of real pride, but she knew that success for our family meant being a partner to my father, and she was that, and many a night and many a morning my mother was with us milking the cows, which today might sound degrading, but my mother, she was the best. Then the next woman in my life was my wife, and my wife, thank God, was a nurse. She was of the generation when the nurse had all the basic training that was needed to inculcate in her mind the willingness to, ah, take care of the patient in all events, so—so it really did never seem to me a difference whether the patient was a human or an animal, and I've been privileged, as a result of having such a partner, to have my practice always contiguous to my house. When I had a heavy practice and my wife could advise the owners of animals as well as I could, and many times, I've had to admit, much better. She had a charm that I didn't have, because I was of the generation that, ah, was pretty practical, and you had to tell someone very bluntly whether the animal would make it or not, and there was an economic value on animals in a large animal practice that there isn't on a small animal practice. My wife had the right background by becoming a nurse, and my wife is first generation from Lithuania. Her father came from Lithuania and crossed over the border and got away from the Russians who had engulfed, ah, Lithuania years ago, as they again did after World War II, and that little country, like the little country that my people immigrated from, Ireland, has stood the mistreatment of a larger power all the time, and my mother dwelt much on history and pride, family loyalty, and knew that her people had come from Nova Scotia and she carefully documented what little knowledge she had, sufficient that even though she never knew her relatives in Nova Scotia, nor did her father before her know the relatives in Nova Scotia, with what she had documented I was able, after a hundred-plus years, to locate relatives in Nova Scotia and develop a genealogy and have composed and written a twelve-page booklet on my relatives from the time that they appeared in Nova Scotia in about the year of 1800. Last fall my wife and I went to Ireland and tried to establish connections there, but in a country that, ah, 50% were either starved to death or forced into immigration by the horrendous laws of England, ah, it is very hard to establish much on genealogy—however, we are pursuing it and we'll follow along on that. But prior to that time, even before I retired and became, in the present-day terminology, the “double dipper”—because, ah, I did continue my Army career in reserve and I continued my work for New York State until I achieved a pension in both, ah, I have kept my private practice—but I did start with my children and, I have a boy and a girl and I started taking them, first to Puerto Rico, and I went on a group tour and promptly left the tour and took my children down to the most godforsaken areas that existed in old San Juan and so forth, where people were living in tin shacks under lean-tos, et cetera, that they had never seen before, and from there we continued taking various trips to Spain, Mexico and Italy, ah, primarily for the children by that time, and I thought back of, ah, when we stood at Rome—when my mother made one trip, and that was into Canada, she always asked me, sometime before I die, to make a trip to Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupré Shrine in Canada, little thinking I'd get to the Vatican first—then, ah, my daughter followed the image of her mother, I think, and was inclined at times to become a nurse, but she went into Languages in the SUNY system and she went through college, and in the summer she has worked, just like my son that's in Pre-Med, he worked the last two summers at General Hospital, and again, thank God he started the first summer in the laundry room and I was pleased when his boss told me that fall—that fall he was through, he told me, that's where every doctor ought to start, down there where the towels came down with the blood and fecal deposits and pieces of bones and everything else that goes with a hospital come down, the laundry room, and I think too many people rise too fast out of the basement of life and not realize what's down there, so I was pleased when he got that job, and then last summer he worked as an orderly in General Hospital, and I think that he has now an awareness of, if he is gonna become a medical doctor, of the basic thing that goes with it, the understanding that goes with it, and of course he had all the years with me, because my practice being next to my home, he was able to render first aid, and both of my children helped me on caesarean sections and so forth—rubbed the little puppies and kittens, ah, from the minute they were brought life on into them, when they were overwhelmed with disease or need patrician or something, so they both had the opportunity to learn, and I look back at my life now and reflect on the terrible situation that so many children come up in—the terrible situation of not knowing how their parents make money—not knowing what makes this country tick—and I think they've have had that opportunity. I thank God that they've had as much as they have had, that they realize how money came in this house and how it went out of this house because the business was, ah, contiguous to it, and in so many lives today the check comes in once or twice a month and it has to do, therefore there is a price paid for it. The price is that while we probably have now the most intelligent people graduating from our schools, they may also be the most immature. Susan: That about sums it up, doesn't it? Dr. Ayres: In retirement I enjoy every day, and like any doctor I think I'll probably continue practicing until I cross the divide, if God gives me the strength. Susan: Well, thank you, Dr. Ayres, it's been nice of you to take time out from your busy life to talk with us. Thank you. Date of Digitization 2016-01-28 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John P. Ayres Subject The topic of the resource Ayres, John P. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Veterinarians -- Interviews; Farmers -- Interviews; Corbettsville (N.Y.); Agriculture; Food Quality Control Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 1 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayres, John P. ; Dobandi, Susan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-03-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-01-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 32:16 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bd119431ff04aa9bb893691a2b2c167a.mp3 bc6ed778975dd1fe0849046e03d0def6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e3e47b652b3d98a6958ee96ab92083d8.mp3 ce429ad9439b815a71122f3073bd484b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sedlak, John Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1978-02-03 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:56 Minutes ; 11:52 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56015">Interview with John Sedlak</a> Subject LCSH Sedlak, John -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Johnson, George F. (George Francis), 1857-1948; Life insurance agents -- Interviews; Shoes; Italians; Russians; Polish Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: John Sedlak Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo Date of Interview: 3 February 1978 Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to John Sedlak of O'Day Drive, Endicott, New York on Feb. 3, 1978. John, will you tell us about your life and experiences in the community? John: Well, to begin with I'm the first generation in this country, my folks having come from Czechoslovakia about 1907 and I was born on Oak Hill Avenue and delivered by a midwife, one of seven children with the exception of one, all of us were delivered by midwives—ive of us are living—two brothers died shortly after birth. On my folks when they came to this country they did not come from Czechoslovakia, it was known then, as Austria-Hungary. As a result, they both spoke and wrote Hungarian as well as Slovak. And many times during our youth when they didn't want us kids to know what they are talking about—they would speak Hungarian. They even sang in Hungarian, that he's—I used to remember some of them but I can't say them now because I can't remember them. But, I believe my first recollection I have as a youth, I lived on Oak Hill Avenue up to a age of twelve—here our next door neighbors were Italian. They came on the same boats as the rest of the foreign people those days and yet, our parents, even though they were different nationalities we would have a good relationship with the Italian people by sign language if nothing else or with a few words of English that we learned at work and we had good relationships with these foreign neighbors who, when I say foreign neighbors, we were foreigners, too, or our parents were. And I recall, as a kid, Endicott Johnson was mainstay of this community, they were the biggest, the best and you thought nothing of, rather, you thought, not of going to work somewheres else, your ship was sighted towards gonna work for Endicott Johnson, unless you were going to be a professional person which was a rare thing so—we—ah—ah see what I want to say ah. I just want to recollect that the great benefactor, that the Mr. George F. Johnson, was because, as a youngster it—we were benefited with sleds, wagons, parks, and as I recall every school that went up in the community the Endicott Johnson Corporation or George F. Johnson himself was grant maybe about half the payments for school which reduced the tax for all the people in the community. Christmas time he gave shoes to all the school kids and it didn't make any difference where your parents worked he got a pair of shoes free. Great humanitarian! And occasionally maybe you ought to stop that thing. Nettie: Take your time—relax—we'll just keep it going. John: Well, no, I'm relaxed—the only thing I'm just trying to think what I should inject in your machine and it is picking up our conversation. (Laughing). I was just gonna say that I would recall the honesty of the working people. I have a good example of my own. One day my mother wanted to wash my clothes, I was then about 10 years old, I had picked up a couple of combs at the dime store which I didn't pay for. To make a long story short, my father said, "Take your pants off and give them to your mother to take them to scrub them on a scrub board at that time.” I took these combs out of my pocket and he saw them and asked me, "Where did you get them?" I had to tell him—I stole them. Well, he told me to change my clothes and he took me all the way down Oak Hill Ave, stood in front of dime store and he said, "Now, you go in and put them in—put them back,” and that's what I had to do. Now that was the greatest lesson of "not stealing" that I ever had because it put me in good stead because all my life after that I never had to worry about a job if—I—-handle a lots of money. I wasn't tempted to walk off with any of it because—it just didn't—he put that lesson so clearly to me—that your name meant so much—poverty isn’t that bad—as long as you had a place to sleep and you had enough to eat. I don't care what you ate, you can get by in this world, get by with soup every day of the week. You don't have to have steak, potatoes—so that rubbed off on me so deeply that I am now 66 and I never forgot that incident and haven't touched anything since. I don't mean to throw stones on anybody else—but I certainly used that as a comparison that you can get by—by working and saving and the things of life which you really need first, the other pleasures come when you have the money—if don't have ‘em—don't worry ‘em but enjoy your neighborhood, your friends close by. You don't have to travel the world over—in other words to think you're missing something, if you don't go to Spain, France or something—someplace like that. If you can, fine, like to go and got the money—go—really—but what I'm just saying—the best thing in the world, as far as I can see is to make friends in your immediate neighborhood, your community and enjoy them. And I wanted to mention something else, and we moved on the farm about 1923 because of my mother's health but that didn't work out too well. It was too far for my father to travel to work—Endicott Johnson so we moved back to Endicott on North Street, this time, from there I developed to adulthood. Nettie: Is this about the time you were entering into the insurance business, John? John: No, no I did not enter into insurance business until I worked for about 8 years with Endicott Johnson as a shoe clerk. I started on Washington Ave transfering to Johnson City for 2 years and from there I was transferred to a new store, which opened up on Odell Ave… They needed someone who could speak the Slav languages. Well I didn't like to take the job in the first place because actually there was a reduction in pay—at least they told me there wasn't gonna be—finally it turned out it was and I stood with it—but for five years but after I got there the work turned out to be very, very good, very interesting. The people would speak Slav or they understood me, anyway if they were Russian, or Polish, we would get by. But the greatest thing I can remember from that, that experience, rather, working in that shoe store was mostly this—that I had an Italian lady who recently had come from Italy, I say recently, she may’ve been here a year or so she had been in tie shoe store numerous times and after time she would ask for me and she would always speak in Italian. The manager was Italian but she didn't want him, I guess because of his forceful sales methods, his forceful way of selling a shoe. She didn't like it—she always, when she came in the door—she would tell me in Italian that she wanted me—I can even repeat that—"Beaj ju va" [sic]—and that was a strange relationship because I would talk to her—I knew how to say colors, like I could ask her if she wanted black, brown or white shoe. I'd sit her down, measure her feet and I'd even tell her the price in Italian and I got so, I was, that much I can get by with and she appreciated that much and we got along very well. And the reason I brought up this incident is the fact you show some compassion towards people and they responded in kind and it didn't make any difference what your nationality was as far she was concerned, made no difference to me that she was Italian. I just felt wonderful with that experience, here's a person in that store that speaks as well as good Italian as she could but she preferred me, of a Slav descent and she knew it. Though, that was one of the experiences I had in life there and as time went along I wanted to leave the store and go to the Washington Avenue store which I had started in many, many years back. There was a vacancy there—and it would pay me almost 50% more in pay and I got the OK from the district manager but then he referred me to the vice president of the company, Lawrence Merle and when I sat down and talked with him he said, "We built the North Side Store for North Side people—if I take you from there and put you down on Washington Avenue you’re going to pull some of that trade down there and we can't do that." I got up on my haunches about then and said, "Mr. Merle, most companies pay a person more money because they can speak more than one language and you are penalizing me." He says, "No, no, no." By that time I got up and in spite of this man's vice presidency in that corporation and overall command of all the stores in United States, I FELT PROUD BECAUSE I could get up and say what I thought. About a year later, I left the store because I figured that wasn't the proper treatment. When I gave my notice about a week before I was to have my final days, I got a phone call asking me if I would take the manager's job in Cleveland, Ohio which I refused because I had given Metropolitan a—my OK that I was coming to work for them.  And even, there, I was hired because I could speak more than one language—they needed an agent who could speak other than English, In other words, the Slav language. And there again, it was in the same area as the shoe store. I got wound up with what they used to call it a debit in those days—a debit meant you had accounts, that were weekly, monthly, quarterly, semi or yearly and you collected mostly your money from the people on scheduled calls. I found out when I got the debit it wasn't as much Slav as I thought. I had almost as much Italian accounts but there again those same people were going to the shoe store, and they knew me, and I had a reasonable amount of success in the business of selling, regardless of what nationality there were. As I mentioned before you had we were not in full Depression at that time that, and this was in 1938, and still the country was not in a rosy condition either. We did have to collect some accounts every week, some people paid 2-3 dollars every week, those were big accounts. You try to equate that today, 2 - 3 dollars a week would mean about 20 dollars a week at least and those were pretty good size accounts, when you analyze them on today's market. Some of the experiences there were—oh—let's see I had something in mind, Nettie—and I can't think of what I was going to mention—Oh—I recall—yes—I had a man who I always had a hard time collecting from him—seldom home and drank a lot and lots of times I let his account go—after stopping there—I would let it go until the last day and I would go 2 or 3 times, see if I could catch him home. This one night I decided, well, I've had it, I was going home. I had stopped previously there, he lived on the third floor. Before I came to—on my return trip home which was almost 9 o'clock that night I've had a glass of wine at the last place I collected, and just one glass. I didn't know how to drink too much anyway, I came up to this fellow and he was giving me a hard time and I guess he could smell I had something to drink. We weren't supposed to drink. But this was the case, as I said, where the man—always giving me a rough time and here I was stopping, figuring I was going home, it was on my route home so I stopped because I could see a light on the third floor. I went up, I guess he paid me but don't remember that either except I do recall the next meeting, Friday of that week, we generally have meetings every Friday, the manager got up and he mentioned without mentioning names, he said, “One of you was reported to have been drinking this week. And I don't like that and this man didn't like it.” So I thought, "Ho, I bet they're talking about me." So when the meeting did break up, I did go into the manager·'s office and asked him if it was me. I gave him the circumstances. He says, "Johnny, we all drink but he says we never drink while you work.” He did tell me it was me. He didn't want to mention the man's name and I told him if it's this man and I told him the circumstances and what type of man that man was. We shook hands and that was it, the boss realized he just had a crank situation on his hands and told me to disregard it, he wasn't going to to make no report to the home office on that, so that's the way that situation ended. Now as far as selling the foreign born, most of them came to this country not knowing what insurance was. They didn't have no such things in Europe in those days. If a person passed away there, the village carpenter in the smaller communities, made a pine box and they were buried. However they paid for in those years—in those countries, I don't know. So we had to instill into the minds of people that just came into this country that you had a little different process here—you had the undertaker, you had the priest to pay or the minister as the case may be, because in many European countries the priest or the ministers were paid by the state so they didn't have any of that outside expense. Here, they had to uphold their own churches, and as a result you had to pay the priest, as I said again, the minister so the convincing—was sometimes hard, sometimes these people came were little above average, they had to be, they were pioneers, see—they must’ve been brave, leaving their mother country and come these thousand of miles away, not knowing the language, customs. Just picture ourselves, if we had to do this—even in our country transplant ourselves from here to the west coast, and all our other relations are here. It takes bit of forethought and courage to go out and do it—especially if you are close to your family and that was so in those days, our people came to this country they were close to their mothers and fathers and brothers—and they came from common stock and nobody was actually professional—not as we see the many foreign people come to this foreign country today—have a education, they are professional—it is easier—welcome better and they have a generally—they know there gonna to travel, they try to get books, that they can at least translate and get by until they make up their minds if they will go into further studies and be more proficient in the language. They can at least get by translating or reading the—other book—where our parents, with a limited educations—over there. My father told me he was—he went to school ‘til he was twelve years old and that was it. Here's this man that knew two languages at that time and he went up to the third or fourth grade. So, sometimes I used to, as a young man, take a hold they didn't know nothing. I look back they knew lot more. They knew the land, they knew how to work the land, they knew seasons, they knew what the seasons represented—by that, I mean—ah—if it was gonna be cold—they knew it by looking at things that natures provided—for them—in other words—they had a first hand course of their parents who, that would teach ‘em—all about these things—like for example, grafting a tree—I seen my father doing that as a kid. Here I am a high school graduate, years of experience in this community, I don't know how to graft a tree. That's what I mean. They knew how to put in a good garden—and why it did grow or not grow—they could tell you, without a formal education from nobody—so most of it came from their parents from their experience they were shown and they did. My father, when he came to this country, most people that left school and wanted to be for example, to be a tailor, they would go—work as an apprentice with a tailor. And so many years afterward—before he was granted some sort of a written certificate, I presume—someday he could come out and be a tailor on his own, either be hired in the industries or set up his own shop. That's the way they began life and some of ‘em prospered by it—especially those who came to this country which ways. We knew so little because so little was written about our country. Nettie: John, what kind of policies did they have at first? John: Oh—did digress away from the insurance business. Nettie: Oh—that's quite all right. John: When I began, actually most people paid insurance either by the week or by the month—most people had a hard time if you wrote them a policy to pay 6 or 7 dollars every three months—with the size of their families being large they felt it would be better if you wrote it by the week. But as things improved, you started writing more policies by the month—otherwards—I said, I began in 1938 and I recall that I had a break in there in 1944—I was drafted into military service and even in 1944 the economy had improved and you were writing more insurance that people were paying by the month—but again—that might not run over 5-6-7 dollars a month and it wasn't until after World War II when you started to write people 8-9-10 dollar premium a month plus what they already had—and these plans of insurance vary—most of our people did like to have a policy where they paid all their life. Even though, life policy was less expensive and they were having more protection for their dollar. They didn't feel they should be paying when they couldn't work any more, for example, So they would prefer a 20 payment life. We sell more of that—but the younger generation got better educated—some from service—realizing that—eh—why not be insured for $10,000 instead of let's say, 5 or 6 thousand under 20 payment for practically the same premium. So the people—as you educated people to understand insurance better and telling them—well, look if you take a whole life and can't pay it all your life that doesn't mean you are going to lose that money—say you come to 65 and you want to stop paying and you want to take what they call a reduced paid up insurance policy for over $6000 or whatever the case exact may be, without a rate book I'm just guessing here, but anyway they could see that instead of paying $15 a month for a $10,000—20 payment life they could pay maybe $9.00 for a whole life for the same protection. My company will pay the same whether you pay $9 or $15 but the only advantage was after 20 years you didn't have pay anymore, but again it took $15 instead of $9 out of your pocket. And, if you had a larger family and had other obligations, which most people did, something would have to give, unless income in 70 went up and in those years there wasn't that steady income, that steady increase in wages, as some of the industries are getting today. There was no such thing as every year you got a increase, you could get a decrease for a lack of work. The situation as you see today. Nettie: John, may I interrupt at this time? When you are talking about increases maybe you can tell us the difference between Endicott Johnson and IBM—when it came to wages at that period. John: Well, back in—when I graduated from High School in 1930—you been better off going to work for Endicott Johnson because Endicott Johnson had a full medical program and IBM or at that time known as ITR, did not. They made about the same wages excepting in the tanneries where you made bigger money than working in ITR and ITR as I said, had no medical program, as I recall, but EJ or Endicott Johnson did—you went to a hospital you didn't have to worry about a nickel, went to see their doctors, got a prescription filled, had your eyes checked, the only thing I can remember after after your getting your eyes checked—you had to pay for your glasses if you could afford it. If you couldn't, even there, Endicott Johnson would pick up the tab. I remember instances, where people got hurt in car accidents on the highway and Endicott Johnson would send a plane to pick up these people and bring them back to the local hospital at no expense to these people. I seen people at instances where they needed special medical care that was not furnished locally, again—Endicott Johnson would furnish the plane to the patient as well as a family member to fly ‘em to a destination and when were through with their treatments bring them back. And all this and even the living expense of these people was absorbed by Endicott Johnson. However, after World War II IBM became a different ball game—they started to really prosper—you can't say today that they don't have good benefits—they have tops—Endicott Johnson, of course, is also a good corporation today to work for. Does that cover it? Nettie: John, how about going back to the Slovak people? I think it would be interesting if you told us some of the traditions—I think— John: Oh—well—see—what we can—like Easter? Nettie: Yes that would be interesting. John: Well—of course Easters back in our day—when we were kids, especially bring some recollections of the Lent season. First of all, we did not eat meat—generally on two days of the week—Wednesdays and Fridays at all and that was all during the 40 days then during the—course—also those who were of age were generally from 18-60 were supposed to fast—and that is one full meat meal a day and the other just light lunches you might say but that was just what many other religions did too—the Orthodox probably even stricter than the Roman Catholics in their upholding of their Lent. When Easter came there is a custom we want to bring out is that was I would get the pussywillows and my father would braid these pussywillows in a form of a short switch and it was a custom that on Easter, although they tell me in Czechoslovakia it was on Monday, where the men run around and they sort of whip the women, this is sort of reminiscent when Christ being whipped by the Jews before being crucified. It was done in a playful manner when you whipped the girls and the following day on Tuesday, was the girls’ day·to do the same. And this naturally, being a youngster, you go out to see your relatives and close friends, you switch the women folk even some times, kids your age or some little older—naturally would run from you because they didn't want to be beaten but sometimes you get a little too carried away and hit too hard, and the man of the house would naturally give you an egg or an orange or money—a few pennies but—was fun—was fun—because we didn't have much money if we got a few cents at the end of to go to a movie we thought we did pretty good. Matter of fact, this custom we did every year—I had an Italian friend who was very close to us—and he kept asking us if he could go along, finally, one Easter we took him out, then we got him a whip, and, my dad a few extras and he went with us too. (Laughing).  I can still remember the boy's name, I don't know if you want names—but Tony Fanara—neighbor practically to Helen's there—and I can still recall that. Then another custom was at Christmas time—which we would go out—oh—before I go on Christmas. I just want to mention one thing about the young adults—we sort of switched from that switch—that's going to be confusing now on tape but instead of the kobachis we used to call it—we started to using water—we used—seltzer bottles. So I recall we didn't have too many cases where you could do that but we had, I remember Margaret Gondek's folds—she was up to date on these things—wouldn't want us to miss her house so we get up early Sunday morning—Easter morning—and she'd leave the house open so we'd walk in and we knew where the girl's bedroom was already—so we'd go up daybreak and pull the covers and swish the seltzer bottle— Nettie: Good ol’ days. John: Yeah—yeah—but somebody had a wet bed—you call that good ol' days—but maybe they didn't like it—they say they didn't like it—but again—I'm sure but what would you do with a wet bed? Take days to dry out. Nettie: That was youth! John: But that was the fun of youth—yeah—we enjoyed doing that. Next day the fellow—generally the girls took it over the following day—which as I said—the custom was Sunday and Monday—in Europe it was Monday and Tuesday. No… But other than that—oh—church dances when they used to have festivals—like in October—they would have a harvest festival then they would dance in native costume—native dress costumes of the Czechoslovakia. They were different costumes different, depending of what part of Czechoslovakia you came from, seems as though every town had its own style of costumes—kroys—I think they called them. I even got away from term insurance—I never mentioned that yet— Nettie: Do you want to mention it at this time? John: Well, you’re gonna have this interlaced with costumes and other—so you will have to adjust. Nettie: That's all right—you want to mention this term insurance—it's all right. John: You asked a question about the term insurance as I mentioned a—a—on previous discussion—term insurance is insurance that has no cash value at any time—as long as you pay for it—you have the coverage once you cease paying on it, the coverage ceases and that's not immediately because if you paid the current month you don't pay until the next premium, you have 30 days or 31 days—after that all coverage ceases because you didn't pay the premium. Now very few people at the beginning would buy this type of insurance but back in—oh—I think following World War II it became more prevalent because all these servicemen became acquainted with term insurance because that's what we bought as servicemen from the government, term insurance—and that of course, the government said when you got out you can convert to other forms of insurance—which today you can buy almost any type of insurance you want—even with the government you have been in service, so you can have your policies paid up as at a given time—you know—whole life policies which would build up cash reserves. Now that's mainly the difference—much of your—again—another idea of having to understand term insurance, is insurance most industries carry for their employees—is term insurance—builds up no cash reserves. Those who die along the way—their families would benefit by that and those who live have very little coverage in their older years of their life. Nettie: Now some of these insurances you had—was there a high rate of lapsing? John: No, no—because there again—that depended on the agent and how he explained things and how forceful he was to oversell ‘em—and that's how many agents were overzealous with—talk a man into a large amount than he can pay for. So the man may struggle for with one year—or or maybe a 6 month—and the first thing you know lapsing—his policy and couldn't afford it so I was always watchful of that—because I thought—look—I might better sell this man a smaller contract now with the hopes things, if things would improve for him or he can handle this he would not hedge against buying additional coverage as he got a little older. You might have to pay more—but again he knew what he could handle—in other words it's one step at a time. If you use that philosophy I think you found—I found at least that they did better with their insurance program. I didn't have—I never had a high lapse ratio like some of the agents. I was never the top salesman as some of these men were but amount of lapse. I often wondered how they were rated that high but they—I guess— Nettie: John, you told me quite a few interesting things but do you still have any more recollections toward our interview?  John: Well, I really don't think so—I'm not here to—you can't bring EJ back to life like the way it was—we've seen the community replaced by IBM instead of Endicott Johnson—I believed I mentioned in previous discussion all Endicott Johnson did before and if we could have another benefactor like—Endicott—like George F. Johnson—this community—and every community in the United States—it would be wonderful. This man didn't die forgotten—at least in my mind—I've always thought of this man and I always have prayed for this man. He was just a beautiful man—he's a man more people should try to copy. Nettie: Ok—John—thank you for your interview and it was very interesting. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Sedlak Subject The topic of the resource Sedlak, John -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Johnson, George F. (George Francis), 1857-1948; Life insurance agents -- Interviews; Shoes; Italians; Russians; Polish Description An account of the resource John Sedlak discusses his upbringing in Endicott as one of seven children of Czechoslovakian immigrants, his work for Endicott Johnson stores as a shoe clerk, where he learned to understand Italian, Russian, and Polish. He tells of his work for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, including working with immigrants. He compares benefits of Endicott Johnson workers and IBM workers before WWII, and emphasizes the charitable work of George F. Johnson and the Endicott Johnson Corporation. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 53A ; Recording 53B Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sedlak, John ; Politylo, Nettie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-02-03 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 33:56 Minutes ; 11:52 Minutes