79 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a53ebc63c63da3c3a48639efe53f80cb.jpg 4407016ead7306ec9d7fc7d3ddf7a4b7 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/083a666d1fff15ba1035879e502bb78f.MP3 ff8b92d706b09a5ad41ab684f350b8c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Sinclair Biographical Text John Sinclair is a poet, writer, and political activist. He was born in Flint, Michigan. Sinclair later became the manager of rock band MC5 in the late 1960s and was a founding member of the White Panther Party, a far-left, anti-racist political collective. He earned his Bachelor's degree in American literature from the University of Michigan and completed coursework toward a Master's degree in American Literature at Wayne State University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:28:05 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords John Sinclair; 1960's; 1970's; MC5; John Lennon; The Beats; Beatnik; Beatles; Yippie; Hippie; Paul Krassner; Jerry Rubin; Allen Ginsberg; Hash Bash; (Davison; MI); White Panther Party; COINTELPRO; Bill Kunstler; Hugh M. Davis Jr.; Damon Keith; Abbie Hoffman; Festival of Light; Bobby Seale; Huey Newton; Rainbow People’s Party; Robert Martian; Hauldeman-Ehrlichman; Rennie Davis; Jack Kerouac; Eldridge Cleaver; John Kerry; Marijuana Movement; Michael Moore; SDS; FBI; CIA; J. Edgar Hoover; Ed Sanders; Leonard Weinglass; FISA; Justice Rehnquist; Nixon. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Sinclair Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 SM: All right, we are on. 0:04 JS: Good 0:05 SM: Well, first off ̶ 0:06 JS: Now can I ask you this? Can you give me an mp3 file of this when it is done? 0:11 SM: Oh, yes. 0:12 JS: Okay, great. 0:12 SM: Yeah. It has, it has to be it has to be sent from the university. Not me, the university. 0:17 JS: I do not care who sends it, I just want to get it. 0:19 SM: Yep. You will get it. 0:21 JS: For my records. 0:22 SM: Yeah, all my interviews and everything has to be approved first before they ever can be used for research and scholarship. 0:29 JS: [laughs] 0:31 SM: Okay, my first question. 0:32 JS: Well, I do not have that problem. 0:34 SM: [laughs] Okay. 0:36 JS: I am just a citizen. 0:37 SM: Yeah, my first question is when you think of the 1960s and early 1970s what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 0:46 JS: A big smile. 0:48 SM: [laughs] Is there anything beyond that smile? 0:56 JS: Well, I was just thinking about what a great time it was. 1:00 SM: Is there any particular event that stands out to you during this whole (19)60s early (19)70s that, were you were not involved that, you know, think it was an amazing event and also an event where you were involved? 1:22 JS: Oh, I do not know. It was daily life for me since from about (19)64 until I do not know, (19)80 some time. [laughs] It was a succession of events day after day. A way of life. It was not just events you know what I mean? It was not no Woodstock or nothing like that. 1:47 SM: Right. 1:48 JS: Daily life with people. Taking LSD. You know. Fighting the government. Trying to end the war in Vietnam. Putting on free concerts, all that kind of stuff. 2:00 SM: When do you take when to take your first drug? 2:04 JS: My first what? 2:05 SM: When did you take marijuana or any drug? When was the first time you ever took it? 2:13 JS: Well you know, marijuana is not a drug. That is a misconception. Marijuana is a medicine. 2:21 MS: Right. 2:24 JS: I started smoking marijuana by 1962, early in 1962. But before that I took sleeping pills. I drank cough syrup. I drank beer, wine, whiskey, rum. [laughs] 2:38 MS: What was your ̶ You grew up in Flint. What was it like growing up? 2:42 JS: I grew up in Davison, Michigan, outside of Flint, a little country town. 2:46 SM: Yeah. What was it like growing up for you? 2:51 JS: Well, it was like the movies of American life in the (19)50s in a small town of all white people. 2:59 SM: Did you go to a big high school? 3:01 JS: No, I went all thirteen years in the same building. 3:04 SM: Oh my gosh. 3:06 JS: I grew up in a small town Davison. 3:12 SM: I can tell you are a jazz. 3:20 JS: ̶ There was not anything in the town, it was an escape from the town, you know. 4:06 SM: Right. 4:06 JS: Mentally I could escape by listening to Ray Charles and Big Joe Turner. You know. 4:12 SM: Yeah well, Ray Charles is one of the one of the really good ones. 4:17 JS: Yeah. 4:17 SM: Do you? 4:18 JS: Well, I got into him right at the time that he switched to Atlantic records in 1952. I was eleven. So I remember his records on Atlantic, you know. 4:27 SM: Were you also if you were interested in the blues, were you also interested in jazz? 4:32 JS: Not until I got out of high school. 4:35 SM: Yeah, Coltrane and Miles. 4:37 JS: When I went to college, I got turned on to jazz. 4:40 SM: Yeah. 4:41 JS: And then I became a jazz fanatic. Then I became, in the mid – (19)60s I was an avant garde jazz fanatic: John Coltrane, Cecil Taylor, Sun Ra, Archie Shepp, Pharoh Sanders, you know. 4:57 SM: Will you ever into the group Weather Report? 5:01 JS: No, they were a little tame for me. 5:03 SM: [laughs] Well, um, when you look at the rock scene, obviously, you know, this is the era where music played a very important role in the (19)60s and (19)70s in the lives of both young people and all people in fact, were there any rock groups that stood out during that timeframe for you? 5:22 JS: Oh, sure. Of course. 5:27 SM: Any particular ones? 5:29 JS: You ever hear of the Beatles? 5:30 SM: Uh, I think I have. 5:31 JS: The Rolling Stones? The Who? 5:34 SM: Right. 5:36 JS: Let us start with them. 5:40 SM: Yeah. 5:41 JS: I was the manager of a group called the MC5. I was associated with scores of groups in Detroit, and later around the country. So yeah, I was aware of all of them. 5:54 SM: I have questions that I was going to ask later on about MC5, but maybe I will ask him right now because that was in the mid – (19)60s that you became their manager? 6:02 JS: Correct (19)67. Yeah, quite a few people that I know were MC5 fans. They were very wise. 6:11 SM: Well, they were MC5 fans [inaudible] quite a few people I know at Kent State were MC5 fans. They were music that was kind of, if I can remember correctly, that the Yippies really liked? 6:24 JS: Well, yeah, we were Yippies. 6:26 SM: Yeah. What was it like to be a Yippie? And for people? 6:30 JS: ̶ It was great! 6:30 SM: For those who may not grew, who may not know what Yippie is, what is a Yippie? 6:33 JS: A Yippie is a member of the Youth International Party or their followers that were not members. They did not really have a membership. They did not even have an office it was an idea promulgated by a recently departed Paul Krassner. 6:51 SM: Oh, yes. 6:52 JS: Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman and Ed Sanders and other guys. 6:57 SM: Yeah they were. 6:59 JS: ̶ That I knew. 7:00 SM: Yeah, Jerry came to Ohio State when I was there and gave one heck of a speech. 7:04 JS: I will bet he did. That was his forte. 7:08 SM: I remember that was 1971 and he was wearing that bandana with all those paintings on his face. 7:14 JS: Yep, yep. That was his peak right there. 7:17 SM: Yeah, well the crowd was unbelievable. 7:18 JS: That was when he got John Lennon to help me get out of prison. 7:23 SM: That whole thing about the event that took place in 1971. Correct me if I am wrong, you came to national fame because people got to know you through that song 'John Sinclair' is that correct? 7:37 JS: No. 7:38 SM: No? How did you become famous? 7:42 JS: Well, they gave me ten years for two joints. No appeal bond. I was fighting the marijuana laws and in 1972 I overturned the marijuana laws in the state of Michigan. Just before that song time came out. 7:58 SM: And I know that so many people were upset about the penalty that was given to you for simply selling two cigarettes to an undercover 8:06 JS: ̶ No, no, I sold nothing. I gave a police woman two cigarettes because she asked me for one. 8:12 SM: Right. And then of course they had that concert. 8:16 JS: There was no sale. 8:19 SM: The rock musicians did this concert and I could not believe how many big names were there! 8:26 JS: [digital music plays in the background] Well it was a culmination of two and a half years of concerts by everybody that we knew; everybody that supported me and we culminated it in this and Jerry Rubin convinced John Lennon and Yoko Ono to attend, and that took it over the top. 8:47 SM: When you heard that song for the first time that you were in prison, when you heard it, were you surprised? 8:55 JS: Surprised. 8:56 SM: Were you surprised that John had not written a song about you? 8:59 JS: Oh, of course, sure. 9:00 SM: It was an unbelievable thing. 9:02 JS: I did not know him. 9:05 SM: Yeah, well I can remember hearing that song on the radio when I was a kid. 9:10 JS: I had already been released by then, by the time the song was released. What did it was when he came to Ann Arbor in the flesh and appeared at our rally. That was three months before the record came out. 9:17 SM: Okay. 9:17 JS: He sang the song there. He had just written it. 9:33 SM: You have been a poet, you have been a poet for a long time. You started out as a poet. 9:37 JS: Long time. 9:40 SM: How would someone say who maybe knows you real well describe your poetry? 9:47 JS: Oh I have no idea. 9:49 SM: How would you describe it? 9:50 JS: Describing my poetry is; no it is not something I; that describes itself. You read the poem, there it is, you know. It is what it is. I do not know, it is not about something, it is what it is, you know, I am a poet. 10:09 SM: Now, do you? I notice that you connected the music with the poetry? So you were the spoken word? 10:17 JS: That is just a marketing term you know. Poetry is poetry you know. Then they have this other genre where you can say anything and they have poetry slams, but none of those really have anything to do with poetry per se. 10:35 SM: When did you start being a poet? Did you write in high school? 10:38 JS: In 1962. 10:39 SM: Wow. 10:43 JS: And I got to be fairly good by (19)64. 10:48 SM: Now, I know that you had mentioned that Allen Ginsberg and Ed Sanders were at that one concert but you had been with him before. 10:59 JS: They were my mentors, I followed them. 11:02 SM: Wow. They were; when, Alan Ginsberg came to Ohio State, he filled two ballrooms at one time. 11:12 JS: That is good. 11:13 SM: And he never opened his mouth. He just did a chant. You know. 11:17 JS: Oh dear. That was the least favorite part to me I liked his poetry and his recitations. 11:24 SM: But it was, it was what they called a 'happening' back then, and you know that word. I have some specific questions on the (19)60s and (19)70s. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? 11:40 JS: January 1, 1960. 11:43 SM: Okay. When did it end? 11:49 JS: December 31, 1969. When the (19)70s started. 11:56 SM: How do you feel about people that say the early (19)70s are part of the (19)60s? 12:01 JS: Oh, I do not care what they say. 12:02 SM: Yeah. A lot of people say that, and I mean, I have interviewed so many people. 12:08 JS: What they talk about the (19)60s, does not include the first part of the (19)60s either. They are talking about (19)68 to (19)75 or something like that. When white people discovered what was hippies, is what was going on. Really 19(69) Woodstock, really started in (19)69 what they think of it see because before that, they were all squares. Hippies was a small community of people regarded as outcasts. Hated by squares. 12:45 SM: I know that the ̶ we interviewed a person who mentioned that he thought the (19)60s was divided into two parts. Part one was 1960 to 1963 when Kennedy was shot and then (19)60s and then after that (19)64 to (19)70 when all hell broke loose. How do you like that commentary? Do you agree with that? 13:09 JS: No, I see at all as a continuity. 13:16 SM: Also, the Beats played a very important role here. And I like the thought on the Beats because this is just it is way beyond just having Allen Ginsberg and Ed Sanders. You know they were different. And they were the first one that really kind of challenged the system in many ways with their writings. They were ahead of their time. Some people, some people think that the (19)60s really began with the Beats in the (19)50s. Your thoughts on that? 13:43 JS: Well I do not know you are using the (19)60s as a metaphor for a period of social change. That really has a different set of numbers, so it is kind of confusing. You are talking about the social revolution that took place in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. 14:03 SM: Yes. And all the movements. 14:04 JS: That is not the (19)60s though. The (19)60s was ten years, you know, it was a decade. [laughs] 14:12 SM: Well, that is important, when I interview people, they have different opinions on everything in terms of the (19)60s and even on the Boomer generation. The one thing, and your thoughts on the issue of spirit when we talk about the boomer generation; which is originally when I was going to be writing a book on. 14:30 JS: The what? 14:31 SM: The Boomer generation that were born between 1946 and (19)64. 14:36 JS: Oh Boomer. Okay, yeah. 14:38 SM: I got corrected a many times by people by saying, it is not about age, it is about spirit. It's about the spirit of the time, I think was Richie Havens that told me that, "I am born in 1941 Steve and I am the (19)60s. I am the spirit of the (19)60s", because it was a period of time where there was a scary ̶ 14:57 JS: Well, we were the ones who did the things that were different. Yeah, yeah, I was born in (19)41. Sanders was born in (19)38 you know, we were the ones who did the things that were different. 15:09 SM: Right. 15:10 JS: People our age. 15:13 SM: When you hear that you know ̶ 15:15 JS: We were inspired by the beatniks and by black people. 15:21 SM: Could you explain a little more detail what you are saying there in terms of, because the people that will be listening to these who are going to be doing research and scholarship on this period. When you say that 'the beatniks' and people of color; black people were the inspiration. Could you go into a little more detail? 15:43 JS: Well, yeah, what do you want? 15:46 SM: How? Well how they inspired. How they inspired the spirit overall of that period. 15:53 JS: Well, by their example. By the way they lived, by the things that they created, their art, their ideas. 16:02 SM: Can you ever see a period of time? If the music was not there would there have been the (19)60s? 16:09 JS: I am sorry? 16:10 SM: If there had been (none) of the music that we all know happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s, would there have been a (19)60s? 16:19 JS: I do not know. [laughs] I do not know how you do these things! How you are going to separate these things? And why? Why do not we talk about what happened? I am not interested in speculating. I am interested in what happened. What is going to happen next? 16:37 SM: Yeah. What? When you look at this, when you look at this period, this ten years from 1960 to (19)70, what did happen in your in your view that made it so different than other decades? 16:55 JS: [laughs] Well, I saw the same thing that everyone else did. I do not know what you are you trying to get out of me? These are kind of big questions. 17:06 SM: Well, just based from your experiences, the things that you know, how you became who you are, and how you became the activist that you were, the poet that you were, the musician. 17:16 JS: I followed the example of the beatniks and I intermingled with black people and I studied their culture. This is what shaped my personality. Now, I got to write that practice you know? I listen to a lot of records. Thousands. 17:41 SM: One of the musicians that always fascinates me is Marvin Gaye. And particularly when he made the changeover in the late on that 1971 period when he did the album, What's Going On. 17:55 JS: Correct. 17:55 SM: And I thought it was his greatest work. But he got heavily criticized for it because I think because they were saying it was not the typical Marvin Gaye music and that seemed to be, I mean, a major happening in the early (19)70s in the music world. 18:14 JS: It was. 18:15 SM: I mean, I played it over and over again. It is that kind of music with messages. 18:18 JS: Also, Stevie Wonder do not leave him out, talk about brilliance. They were twin towers of creativity. 18:27 SM: Right. Look at the people. 18:30 JS: Then the Rolling Stones took Stevie Wonder on tour with them and introduced him to white people and then he became bigger. They also did that with Ike and Tina Turner and with B.B. King. 18:45 SM: What would your thoughts on the whole, the lawsuit or the ̶ that particular one in Ann Arbor, with the marijuana what the whole lawsuit that you won? Or Leonard Weinglass was your lawyer and it was case. 19:05 JS: That was a real specific case. That was a federal case of conspiracy. I was charged with conspiring to blow up a CIA office in Ann Arbor. 19:17 SM: And you won that case? 19:20 JS: Well, yeah, because the government said that they were wiretapping and they had, the defendants were captured on wiretaps but they could not say who the wiretap was on because it was a matter of national security. And then it came out that they were tapping national security targets without a wire warrant, and we challenged that in court with Weinglass, Bill Kunstler and the great Hugh M. Davis Jr. of Detroit. 19:57 SM: That is a major case because that whole period of the (19)60s with all these illegal things happening with COINTELPRO and all those activists organizations, I know when I was in college, they were spying on our campus. 20:10 JS: They were spying on all campuses and they were not supposed to have anybody active in United States. I did not happen to conspire to blow up this office but I know the people who did and I know why they did it to call attention to the fact that the CIA had an office that was recruiting on the campus of the University of Michigan. In violation of international and national law. 20:35 SM: So that is an historic case. 20:37 JS: So we unearthed them. Yeah well, the historic part was that we won in the Supreme Court. See, we had a judge in Detroit who just died, Damon Keith, a great jurist. It was in the eastern district of Michigan and he awarded in our favor that there was no such thing as a warrantless wiretap and that the government, he ordered the government to divulge the information on the wiretaps and they said, "We cannot divulge it because then we would have to say who it was on and blah, blah, blah, and it fits with our strategy." And they said, "Well, you have got to reveal it or drop the case." And so he freed us from the charge, and then the government appealed the judge's ruling. So my case went to the US Supreme Court, as US versus US District Court, eastern district of Michigan and that was adjudicated in the Supreme Court, eight to nothing in our favor and Nixon was repudiated. As a result of that this group, this organization, government organization, called FISA was created which came up again in the Bush era because he was defying them. You remember that? 21:25 SM: Yes, I do. 21:57 JS: Well FISA was established as a result of our case. Because they wanted to get a wiretap that nobody else knew about they had to go to the FISA court. They could not just bop one on somebody. You know what I am saying? 22:15 SM: Yep. 22:18 JS: That was a lasting result of that. And they say we had something to do with Watergate. Because you know because Watergate was about removing their wiretaps. 22:32 SM: Right. 22:33 JS: My case was decided on a Friday afternoon in the Supreme Court. Justice Rehnquist had just been appointed from the Nixon so-called Justice Department to the Supreme Court. He had recused himself from the case because he had been one of the architects of the warrantless wiretap. 22:53 SM: Oh my God. 22:54 JS: Well they presume that (they decided my case on Friday, but they did not announce it until Monday) and they presume that Justice Rehnquist called the Nixon-Mitchell office and told them that they had lost in the Supreme Court eight to nothing, and that if they had any wiretaps, they'd better get them out by Monday so they could say that they did not have any. 23:21 SM: Wow. 23:21 JS: And that was the Saturday of the Watergate break in. 23:24 SM: Unbelievable! Well that is historic. [laughs] Crazy, huh? Yeah, that is historic! 23:30 JS: Yeah. That is what they say. There is no way to know. But that is what they say. 23:35 SM: Yeah. Were you in the courtroom when, when they were doing their legal arguing? Weinglass? 23:43 JS: Yeah I was there in the Supreme Court. Yes. That was a thrill. And the great Bill Bender argued our case. The nation's leading constitutional, leftwing constitutional scholar. He argued our case. Another great part of it was that the Solicitor General of the United States Erwin Griswold refused to argue Nixon's case because it was so full of shit. [laughs] 24:14 SM: Everything Nixon did was that way mostly. [laughs] 24:17 JS: So in the Supreme Court it ended up that this, one of those, um, criminals from Arizona, I think it was Robert Martian. One of those guys. Part of that Hauldeman-Ehrlichman axis. They had to argue the case and they were [inaudible] the Supreme Court ripped him to shreds. 24:25 SM: Oh my god. Wow. 24:39 JS: Yeah, I was so thrilled. [laughs] 24:43 SM: Well, that particular event where they all came together; the activists and the musicians and so forth. I mean you had, you know, Rennie Davis was there. 24:52 JS: Well, that was what we did see, we were they White Panther Party. We had the MC5. We were associated with the Stooges and really fifty other bands in Detroit and Ann Arbor. 25:06 SM: Wow. 25:07 JS: This is what we did. 25:08 SM: Now this is where I would like you to give a little more detail because I, the MC5, I have some people at Kent State, some former students there who were big MC5 fans, could you talk about MC5 and their influence? The years that you had them as their manager and just talk about all these bands you are talking about in Detroit? Your life is fascinating. 25:32 JS: Ha! 25:32 MS: No! It is. I mean, it is! You know, all the different categories from being a poet, a musician, a writer. Radio, having your own radio shows, a manager of a rock band, you write! And what you did with the underground newspapers. I mean, your life is amazing. 25:54 JS: Well thanks. I was inspired by Allen Ginsburg, Jack Kerouac, Ed Sanders, Amir Braka. 26:02 SM: He cannot get any better than that. Because they are the Beats. 26:05 JS: That is where I come from. 26:07 SM: Yeah, we grew up on that. 26:08 JS: And then I took a lot of LSD. 26:11 SM: Yeah. How many trips did you have? 26:15 JS: I could not tell you that. 26:18 SM: Did you write your best poetry when you were on a trip or did just, you did not want to be on any kind of medicine at all when you when you wrote your poetry? 26:29 JS: I just take as it comes. 26:32 SM; But what? Now how did the MC5 come together? 26:39 JS: Well, they went to high school together in Lincoln Park, Michigan. 26:44 SM: And how did you become their manager? 26:48 JS: Well, I heard the band and I thought they were great and I became a huge fan and I saw them every time they played for a year, and then I became their manager. They needed someone to help them. 27:01 SM: Right. And the band was often categorized so that they were involved in issues caring about certain issues. They were more of a ̶ and they performed I believe in Chicago. 27:15 JS: Right. 27:16 SM: And just before that they went crazy there in the park. Describe that scene. 27:26 JS: Well, they played and then the police attacked the people in the park and we fled. 27:32 SM: I think I think that is when Rennie Davis gotten beaten over the head, I think. I know he said he was there. 27:38 JS: Well, Rennie Davis was in another part. See they also had the Democratic Convention. And that was father downtown than the park, you know. We were in Lincoln Park with the Yippies created this thing called the Festival of Life as an alternative to the Democratic Convention. We had the music and the poetry and the acid. The other people were conflicting with the Democratic Party and the Chicago police regularly for a week or so. 28:16 SM: Could you talk a little more detail about the festival? 28:18 JS: That was led by the SDS and by the mobilization against the war in Vietnam. We were led by the Yippies. 28:29 SM: Could you, in your own words describe a little bit more about the Festival of Life when we talk about the (19)68 Democratic Convention we all hear about the SDS and that group, the activist groups, and we know that Andy Hoffman was there and that there were some Yippies there but we do not really see the breakdown. 28:48 JS: No, no, no, we were not part of the protest at the convention we had our own event. 28:52 SM: Right. I know. But I do not think it is discussed that much. They always just talk about the 28:57 JS: Well, that is not our fault. I kind of discuss it now. 29:02 SM: Could you do it? Could you talk a little bit more about the Festival of Life? 29:08 JS: Yeah, it was a Yippie event created by Ed Sanders, Paul Krassner, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin and others. I was in on the planning of that as well. It was, the idea was to put on a free concert in the park in Chicago in protest against the Democratic Party and not just the Democratic Party but what we called the 'death culture.' See the Democratic Party was carrying on the war in Vietnam. Full force at that time, full force. Now Lyndon Johnson had stepped down because he did not feel he would get reelected because he had [inaudible] this war so fiercely, which was true. And so Humphrey was running and he had been Vice President so he was just as bad. So we want anything to do with the Democrats. So we put on our own event because our whole outlook was alternative, alternative to the death culture. Then we were going to have this political conversation? We were going to have a free concert. All the bands in the hippie nation were supposed to play. The Jefferson Airplane, The Grateful Dead, they all got scared when they saw the people getting beat up by the police. So none of them came except for the MC5 we came from Detroit by car; and we played. We were determined to play. Fuck the police. 30:46 SM: How long did the MC5? Are they still performing? Or are they kind of broken up? 30:55 JS: They broke up in 1972, yep. I thought you were writing about the (19)60s. You do not know about the MC5? 31:03 SM: Yeah, I know, I got it right here. 31:05 JS: They were the greatest band of the (19)60s. [laughs] 31:09 SM: But I did not know that they had all dispersed and gone separate ways. 31:13 JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to read the book that Wayne Kramer recently published called The Hard Stuff. Then you should talk to Wayne Kramer, the lead guitarist in the MC5. 31:33 SM: The White Panther Party was formed because it was the Black Panthers had asked you to be a counter another support group for their cause correct me? 31:48 JS: No, no, no. No they put out a; white people were asking what they could do to further the cause of the Black Panther Party and Bobby Seale and Huey Newton said you should start a White Panther Party. So we did that. We responded to that. We thought that was a good idea. 32:08 SM: Did you have a lot? 32:09 JS: They said, our real problem is the white people. So somebody else needs to have a radical party to organize white people in our support. And in support of socialism. Because first of all, the Black Panther Party was a democratic socialist organization. 32:28 SM: Again, the White Panther Party existed from (19)68 to (19)80? 32:32 JS: (19)80? I do not know anything about that. 32:38 SM: I thought the length of time that the party was together was for twelve years. The Black, I mean, I am not talking about Black Panthers; the white, the White Panther Party was to kind of 32:49 JS: No, we changed it to the Rainbow People's Party in 1971. So for us, it went from (19)68 to (19)71. Some other people in San Francisco kept a White Panther Party, but it was not us. 33:07 SM: Now you were um, you lived in the United States, and then you moved to Amsterdam, as well, you have; 33:14 JS: Oh, you are jumping ahead quite a bit, yeah. 33:16 SM: I am going all over the place. Yeah. I have got so much here on your life. But I wanted to talk about that because I think it is when I think of Amsterdam, I think of jazz. 33:29 JS: Jazz? 33:30 SM: Yeah. A lot of jazz musicians go to Amsterdam. It is a very creative city. It is a very progressive city. 33:36 JS: Yeah. But not music or art. What progressive is that they keep your hands off of you. But their art is terrible and so is there music. 33:48 SM: Yeah, I know jazz musicians like Amsterdam because they feel like 33:52 JS: Well, they like to hear them play so they got gigs there you know? 33:55 SM: Right. 33:56 JS: And it is a great place to live, but not so many live there. Many more live in Paris or Copenhagen. 34:04 SM: You were involved in working with underground newspapers too. 34:09 JS: Correct. 34:09 SM: I am reading a book right now on the history of the underground newspapers. 34:13 JS: Oh wow. 34:14 SM: And their impact on the on the Vietnam War and a lot of other causes but particularly the Vietnam War. 34:24 JS: Do they have anything about the [inaudible]? 34:26 SM: I have only, it was a book written in 1993. It cost me fifty dollars I am just start starting to read it. And Tony Auth the cartoonist for the piece, the late cartoonist from the Philadelphia Inquirer is in it quite a bit too, because he did a lot of underground. 34:45 JS: Who was that? 34:45 SM: Tony Auth. 34:48 JS: I do not know him. 34:49 SM: Yeah, he was in the Philadelphia Inquirer for many years be came from Los Angeles. 34:52 JS: Oh, oh. No wonder. 34:53 SM: But he talked a lot about it, but you worked with the underground newspapers and you have been involved with them. 35:01 JS: How you contribute is, you did not get paid. It was not like working for them. 35:06 SM: They are important. 35:07 JS: Yeah, I know, but the important part was that people did it because they felt this information should be disseminated, not because they were getting paid. And they were not owned by anybody they were collectively owned. It is a beautiful thing. 35:28 SM: Well. 35:29 JS: Totally the opposite of the journalism that they have now. 35:32 SM: Exactly. I remember being in three different universities and I got my news from them. 35:38 JS: Right. 35:39 SM: And I still got a lot of them that I kept and never threw them away. 35:42 JS: Right. And you will not find one today. Will you? 35:45 SM: No, I go on the campus today and I do not see anything. But in terms of their influence during that period of time, we are talking about the (19)60s and (19)70s when so much was happening. They were vital, were not they? To me they were vital. 35:58 JS: Vital. Rock and roll, underground newspapers and underground radio. You know then, we did not have no internet. 36:09 SM: That is right. 36:11 JS: You know and to communicate you had to write up something, type it on a mimeograph, run it up on the mimeograph, fold them up, buy the envelopes, buy the stamps. Put them in envelopes, write the address, send them and three days later they get the message. So that was the [inaudible] in which you operated. So the underground paper, they came out every week, right? Or every other week at worst. That is the way that you found out what was going on. 36:43 SM: I got to interview Vietnam vets who said that were in their basic training, they found out a lot about the Vietnam War through reading underground newspapers. 36:54 JS: Yeah, because the army was not going to tell them. 36:56 SM: No. 36:58 JS: They were just cannon fodder to them. 37:01 SM: This is when they were doing their six weeks basic training. 37:03 JS: Underground papers had a great role in creating the resistance within the armed forces, which became a decisive factor. It really was marked most prominently by the great testimonial of John Kerry, a Naval lieutenant who said this is all horseshit. 37:28 SM: Right. Yeah. 37:30 JS: To me, that was a turning point. 37:33 SM: That was amazing. 37:34 JS: In ending the war. 37:36 SM: Well I interviewed Bobby Moeller, earlier today, and we were going into detail about that particular time that he went before the Foreign Relations Committee with Senator Fulbright. And that was historic and to add that some of the atrocities and then there was a book written I think, about 2003 by Mark Turce and it talks about the atrocities in Vietnam and it's just; that were hidden for many, many years by the government and then he was able to find them. So uh. 38:10 JS: Well the whole thing was an atrocity from beginning to end. You know, these are people that are farming rice in their paddies. They were not at war when nobody except for the dictators of South Vietnam who were backed by the US. They were not doing nothing to nobody. They never came here. We killed hundreds of thousands of people and then the bomb, you know, horrible, horrible. Every part of it was horrible. It was inhuman. 38:44 SM: Yeah. 38:45 JS: And they lied about it from beginning to end. 38:49 SM: Yeah. The whole (19)60s when you think about it. It went; to me, the watershed event was the Vietnam War and civil rights obviously is another one. 39:02 JS: Yeah, the twins. 39:03 SM: Yeah the twins and 39:04 JS: And then the Women's Movement came up. And then the Gay Movement. 39:08 SM: Right. That was in (19)69. 39:11 JS: Yeah. 39:12 SM: Yeah. It's like this whole, you know, you are involved in this period when all these groups are coming to, you know, the various causes they all we had the anti-war movement and of course, we know about the civil rights movement and with a women's movement and the gay and lesbian movement with the Chicano movement. I have been interviewing some Asian Americans who were a lot older, there was a movement in that particular group. We do not hear about too much. 39:41 JS: Yeah, they had the records expunged from when they locked him up in the concentration camps during World War II. 39:48 SM: Yes, yes, yes and you have got doctor Tekaki talking all about that and some of his books, and certainly the history of the Native Americans is another one. 40:00 JS: Yeah. 40:01 SM: This all kind of comes together in the (19)60s and in the, in the (19)70s, and you are involved in a lot! 40:08 JS: Well, you see, once they assassinated their own president, that kind of pulled covers; it started to pull the ̶ you know, that was the end of the illusion that this was all on the up and up. They killed, they assassinated the president! 40:26 SM: Yes. 40:26 JS: They did not like his policies, they got rid of them. You know, that was the beginning of the end. 40:32 SM: Did we ever have an Age of Innocence even before he was killed? 40:36 JS: Oh, I do not know what you mean by we ̶ 40:39 SM: America, this nation. 40:41 JS: There is no such thing. America, you know, there is black people. There's white people, there's rural people that do not, there's no such thing as that. It is all a myth. We just all live in the same piece of land. An Age of Innocence, you know they came over here and stole this country from the people that lived here and assassinated them in huge numbers and not only assassinated them but removed their way of life. Killed off the plants and the animals that they ate. That is the innocent White people. The poor white people. Rotten motherfuckers. 41:22 SM: The word that has been used a lot; we are that we are a very xenophobic nation. Afraid. 41:31 JS: I am not part of no 'we' like that. I am nothing like any of that. That is not my 'we'. I am a we with those who were born here. I am an American, but I do not subscribe to all of that horseshit. 41:47 SM: When you look at the term, the 'Yippies' and the 'hippies', and how the anti-war movement and we are all the people for that period, they kept talking about Theodore Roszack wrote that great book The Making of a Counterculture that was kind of required reading on college campuses in the early (19)70s. To you, what is the definition of a counterculture? 42:11 JS: That is never a term that I use. I thought that guy was totally full of shit. Roszak. 42:18 SM: Yeah. 42:19 JS: They made it required reading on campus so that they would all get the wrong idea. Course, the next idea they got on campus was that history was over. [laughs] So you see where they were trying to lead the young people in their educational facilities? 42:38 SM: Well, you know, we learn more about history by reading Howard Zinn, because Howard Zinn, because Howard Zinn had an alternative view. 42:43 JS: Exactly. Umberto Eco. [laughs] 42:50 SM: Yeah, you know, I actually had a chance to meet him. He was an interesting man. 42:56 JS: I will bet. He is a good writer! I like his novels. 43:01 SM: Well, his history was unbelievable too and so, one of the things here I wanted to: what, of all the movements you have been connected to the course, several movements in your own way but, what of all the movements that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s how important was the anti-war movement in ending the war? There has been a lot of discussion of this in books and scholarly writing. 43:34 JS: Well, what do they say? The people who were waging the war did not end it. They kept it on as long as they possibly could. It was us that ended it. 43:46 SM: Oftentimes the criticism is the college students, the alternative view is that the college students did not end the war in Vietnam. Maybe the general protesters might have been but there was a lot of criticism of college students I do not know if you had that same feeling. 44:04 JS: What? I do not I do not care what anybody thinks okay the criticism these fucking idiots means nothing to me. There was what happened and then there was what did not happen or whatever they say, they are nuts! Plus, they got agendas of their own! They are capitalists. 44:24 SM: Why did we lose that war? In your opinion. 44:28 JS: We? I won! 44:31 SM: I am not going to say 'we' anymore. 44:32 JS: I was on the side of the Viet Cong! We won! Why did America lose it? Because they were on the wrong side. They were on the wrong side of history and they were on the wrong side in the war. They were wrong. They were evil, vicious, you know invaders. 44:59 SM: They certainly did not understand 45:00 JS: Bombers. 45:01 SM: They did not understand the culture they were going into ̶ 45:04 JS: Well, they understood well enough that it was different from ours and needed to be eradicated. They used the same shit they used on the Indians. They destroyed the villages and tried to destroy their livelihood. You know, they are just totally vicious. That is the way white people are, it is what they are all about. You know, yeah, the European Union now, I am a big fan of European Union, cause seven years ago, these people were bombing each other's cities. Well, now they got people rising up in all these countries that want to go back to that. They are a fucking idiots. 45:48 SM: I love your honesty. I love your honesty. 45:52 JS: That is all I got. 45:52 SM: Do that know that? I love that that I like about you and all the people I have been interviewing is I love hearing their points of view. Because they are all they are all valid. 46:03 JS: And you will not be hearing them on TV. [laughs] 46:08 SM: No you will not. You will not. Well, I want to get back to the event that happens every year that I believe we just came from, which is the Hash Bash. The Hash Bash. 46:21 JS: Hash Bash, first Saturday in April. Yeah. 46:24 SM: Now that has been happening since 1971? When did when it first start? 46:29 JS: First Hash Bash was (19)72. We had a gathering in (19)71 but it was to protest my imprisonment. In (19)72, I was already out. (19)72, see when my case, came to the Supreme Court and they overthrew the marijuana laws, they would passed a new one, but it did not take effect for three weeks between March 9th and March 31st in (19)72, they did not have a marijuana law in Michigan at all. So we took full advantage of that we make quite a bit of hay with that. And then we were going to put it back into effect on April Fool's Day, we thought the idea would be to have an event in the middle of the campus to stick our middle finger up and say fuck you we are not going to pay any more attention to the new law than we did to the old law because you are still wrong. There should not be any law. And now that is what we have now but it took place last year, fifty years later, you see. 46:46 SM: Wow. Fifty. And how many people come to the event every year? 47:38 JS: Thousands. 47:40 SM: And look, I am going to try to make it next year. What is the date is eight? What is it? 47:45 JS: First Saturday in April. 47:49 SM: It is in Ann Arbor? 47:51 JS: Yes. 47:52 SM: I have been trying to make it. 47:54 JS: Cannot miss it. 47:56 SM: I am going to be certainly at Kent State next year. You are going to Kent State for the fiftieth? 48:00 JS: No. 48:01 SM: I am trying to try to make that. 48:05 JS: [laughs] They will probably shoot some people in their celebration of the fiftieth. The Government, Trump, you know. 48:14 SM: Yeah, a lot of things strange things are certainly happening now. I, one of the questions I have here is what in all the events and again, this is just your personal feeling. What was the watershed event in the 1960s? I said Vietnam War, but what do you feel is the watershed event and I preface this by saying that many Vietnam vets I say six Vietnam veterans, some well-known some not, have stated that the, they felt they had to be involved in the Vietnam War because it was the watershed event of their youth. 48:19 JS: I do not know. I do not know I find it impossible to reduce anything to one thing. It was a huge movement. 49:06 SM: Mm hmm. When you think of the hippies, hippies and the Yippies, and the SDS 'ers, and the even the American, the conservative student groups and everything, it was quite, it was quite a time when there are a lot of different groups involved in certain kinds of protests. I do not see that today. I do not see it anywhere really. 49:32 JS: Oh, they protest today, I mean, the political moment is pretty similar to the way it was that then, they just do not have hippies anymore. But they have protests all the time. 49:45 SM: But they have protests, but they are more like singular protests. For example, the women's groups are all going to be there. I do not see a lot of other groups beyond the women's movement. That has been a criticism of the gay and lesbian movement, even Martin Duberman's written about it. That the one concern he sees with the gay and lesbian. 49:46 JS: Ok wait a minute, now we are going back on the criticism. What are they doing? The critics? What is they are answer to the fucking uh, oppression of females? Other than criticism of the, groups that are doing something? 50:19 SM: Yeah, I think the crucial; the criticism was the ̶ that they are doing it singular and not in a unity with a lot of other. 50:25 JS: But can we follow their lead? Who are these people with all of the answers? Why cannot I sign up with them? 50:35 SM: Good point. Instead of being, in other words instead of being a critic you do it. You be the example. 50:46 JS: Well, I have been the example for years and years but so what? Why do I have to think about a critic? Who has a job and plenty of money in the bank and a house and a car and they are going to tell me what I am doing wrong or what somebody I believe in is doing wrong. I do not care about them. Fuck them. You know what I am saying? Every point we talk about, you start telling me about what the critics would say. I do not care about them. 51:17 SM: Maybe because I am, I guess, I read too much. 51:22 JS: I do not know. 51:22 SM: There are from books. 51:24 JS: I am a constant reader, I read from day to night, every day. But I have not got the wrong ideas. [laughs] 51:31 SM: You know, talking about you know, what are your favorite books from the (19)60s and (19)70s? 51:37 JS: Oh. 51:37 SM: You did not you did not like Roszack because of the making of the counterculture, but that is one of the ̶ that was one of the biggest selling books that there was. 51:45 JS: Well, that was one of the reasons that I did not like it. What do I want with a best seller? 51:50 SM: There was a cultural narcissism no? 51:52 JS: Best seller just means that more idiots fell for it. [laughter] That is not a criterion of goodness to me. 52:01 SM: That book if you ever had a chance to try and sit down read it was pretty hard to understand to. 52:07 JS: Well, because he did not have any idea what he was talking about. It is like that guy who writes about music who thinks he is so great Greil Marcus. They are just making that shit up. They do not know anything. 52:20 SM: Yeah, he, he did make money off it though, I will say. 52:23 JS: Well good for him, but what is that do for me? 52:27 SM: Nothing. 52:28 JS: Thanks. 52:32 SM: Today when we are looking at now again, I want to get back to the Hash Bash because what, when you have the venues and you have the events there that are planned Who, who, who plans the Hash Bash on an annual basis number one, and how do they break it down? Is it musical groups is it you know, speakers, you know, what is the Hash Bash? 52:57 JS: They must have a website where you can go to and see this stuff. 53:04 SM: Is it over several days? 53:05 JS: I am just a founder, you know, I go on I read a poem, I give a poem and then that is it. So they have speeches, I do not listen any of them. 53:17 SM: And they covered what subjects basically? Anything? 53:21 JS: I do not listen to them! 53:23 SM: Ok. [laughs] 53:26 JS: Probably telling you about marijuana, legalizing marijuana. I started the legalize marijuana movement in Michigan. I do not get to listen to anybody. I know they got what they are talking about from me. [laughs] 53:26 SM: I know that there was a gentleman in San Francisco that was really involved in trying to get this passed as well. I am not sure if he is still alive. But how many states now are there that have legalized marijuana? 53:57 JS: Quite a few. 53:58 SM: Yeah. Do you think do you see? 53:59 JS: See, I mean, when you talk about no movement, today marijuana smokers are very well organized group of democratically oriented people who passed the law. They register, they put it on the ballot and they vote for it. Nobody else does that. We do it. We have been doing it. That is why its legal. 54:24 SM: Do you see that in maybe fifteen or twenty years from now that all fifty states will be in unison? 54:31 JS: I hope so. For their sake. 54:34 SM: Yeah, because I work part time in a pharmacy and I see how we have people that are sick that are taking marijuana from the pharmacy. So ̶ 54:45 JS: Oh yeah? You are you supplying it? 54:46 SM: No, we it has been okayed by the doctor. And so we have we have it in the protective area of the pharmacy. 54:54 JS: But you have it though? 54:55 SM: Yes, we have it. 54:56 JS: Yeah. You know in Amsterdam they have medical marijuana. You have to go to a pharmacy and tell them what you want and then they have to go buy it from a coffee shop [laughs] they do not have it on the premises. Yeah, I got it. I got some just to see what the protocol was. 55:16 SM: Yeah, well, we have it under lock and key. 55:18 JS: You had to wait three days. 55:20 SM: We have it under lock and key. 55:23 JS: I will bet. 55:26 SM: But I, you know, I some of the other things here I got so many things I wanted to ask here 55:32 JS: Better do it now. 55:34 SM: The divisions that we see in America today are so terrible. Obviously this President has accentuated it. But um 55:43 JS: Well its racism. This has always been a racist country. This guy just brings it out because that is what he is getting elected on. He is getting elected because he is a creep. He is a, he is a capitalist pig. And he is a racist dog and they like that. 56:01 SM: Amazing though that ̶ 56:02 JS: And they were really pissed off that they had a black president that they had to bow to for eight years. And they almost a woman! These are Americans man, these are the motherfuckers that fight in our wars. [laughs] 56:16 SM: John, is not it amazing though when you think of everything that you have lived through, I have lived through that we have just experienced in our lives, that we are still dealing with this. This kind of crap in the year two thousand nineteen. 56:30 JS: Well, they will be dealing with it until they get rid of racism. You see? 56:34 SM: Yeah. Racism is what America is built on, it is what it is all about. You know that had these people were slaves for them for three hundred years. Three hundred years is more years then the country is alive. That is right. 56:49 JS: And they never said they were sorry. They have never given them the reparations. They keep treating them like they are inferior citizens. They do not have education or jobs for them. What do they expect? Shit. These people go around shooting people, Jesus Christ! They show them all these movies of people killing people all the time. They sell them any fucking gun they want. What do they think is going to happen? Guy goes to a shopping mall and shoots his sister! 57:19 SM: When you see when you see the TV that we grew up with in the 1950s, which was all about westerns and cowboys killing. 57:27 JS: And the police, the police were 57:29 SM: Yes. 57:30 JS: Do not you remember Sergeant Friday? 57:31 SM: Yes, yes, yes. 57:33 JS: Yeah. 57:34 SM: We saw these things and you know shooting and killing and all the other stuff and you kind of wonder well, what kind of effect might that have? When I said Age of Innocence I was referring more to the (19)50s but that was not an Age of Innocence. They were still hanging people in America. They were you know. 57:50 JS: They just came back from a war where they were shooting people in the face you know. 57:54 SM: Right. Yeah. It is a ̶ it is kind of sad. We are still in those kind of situations. 58:02 JS: Well, that is what we call [inaudible] ̶ 58:06 SM: Of your many deeds and accomplishments what are you most proud of? 58:13 JS: Wow. Whole thing. I like it all. 58:24 SM: This is uh, you know, you, I am, you are very good at this because you are proud of who you are. You are proud of who you are. 58:33 JS: I am. What I have done and proud of what I have done. 58:36 SM: Yeah. 58:38 JS: Well, I am just another human being filled with faults and [laughs] wrong doing you know. 58:46 SM: You probably never thought when you were in high school that you would end up doing all this stuff in your life. Did you? You know. 58:52 JS: Well I did not know anything about anything till I read "On the Road." 58:55 SM: Right? Right. Oh, yeah, Jack Kerouac. Oh yeah, I read that book. That is an unbelievable book. 59:01 JS: Yeah. 59:02 SM: Classic. 59:03 JS: Well it opened up a bigger world for me. I grew up in a small town. 59:10 SM: Yeah. Well, I tell you, we had five beat writers on our campus when I worked at Westchester. 59:16 JS: Oh that is cool! 59:17 SM: And we had the female writers and, Ann Waldman came. 59:22 JS: Oh wow! That is a great writer! 59:23 SM: Yeah Leroy Jones' wife. 59:27 JS: Oh Hettie! 59:28 SM: Hettie. Yeah. I interviewed Hettie for the project. 59:31 JS: Oh good. 59:31 SM: So she was she was there. Who else? We Ed Sanders. Ed Sanders came though because he knew the English professor who wrote a lot about the Beats. So Ed came, and we had another one. Well, we had about five of them all together. I did meet Allen Ginsburg though at Ohio State. 59:50 JS: That is good! 59:50 SM: And he was just, he is a, what a giant he is. 59:55 JS: Yeah, he is a great American. 59:58 SM: Now if you look at the people from (19)60s and (19)70s period who did, who do you admire? And who do you totally despise? 1:00:10 JS: I admired thousands of people. John Coltrane. He was God to me. Who did I despise? Richard M. Nixon and his whole gang of thugs. 1:00:32 SM: Is there anybody that you kind of dislike and like? I, you know that combination that mixture; that now one day you just cannot stand the guy or gal, and the next day you support them? Was there anybody in that medium, middle ground? 1:00:51 JS: Yeah, I used to think Eldridge Cleaver was great and then I thought he was an idiot. 1:01:01 SM: Yeah, he changed. There is no question about that. "Soul on Ice". Some of the slogans from that era too. Which of the slogans that you remember more than any other from the (19)60s and (19)70s? 1:01:16 JS: I do not know. 1:01:18 SM: One of them is from a Yippie. Pardon? 1:01:25 SM: One of them is from a Yippie. A friend of yours. Jerry Rubin "do not trust anybody over thirty". 1:01:32 JS: Well, things like that, we were wrong about a lot of things so it is hard to have an emotional connection with our ideas of that time. Because so many of them were wrong. 1:01:42 SM: What is amazing is he was twenty-nine when he said it! [laughs] He was thirty before he knew it. And then of course um, there are other ones as well. Yeah. Some of the people again that came to your VIP event in 1971, the John Sinclair Freedom Rally is just amazing. I am looking at the list of some of the names here. I know Pete, Bob Seeger was there. 1:01:54 JS: He was trying to warn them. Yeah. 1:02:16 SM: Phil Ochs was there. 1:02:18 JS: He was a local band, Bob Seeger. 1:02:21 SM: Right. 1:02:22 JS: At that time. 1:02:22 SM: Yep. 1:02:23 JS: Until (19)75. 1:02:26 SM: And then Ginsberg and Sanders were there. 1:02:28 JS: Phil Ochs was Jerry Rubin's best friend. 1:02:31 SM: Right. And we lost. You are correct. We lost a really fantastic person a great person in Paul Krassner. 1:02:39 JS: Yeah. 1:02:40 SM: I interviewed Paul a long time ago. He gave me a lot of names 1:02:45 JS: I will bet he did! He knew everything. 1:02:47 SM: And but he he'd be funny and he'd be funny one minute and dead serious next. 1:02:52 JS: Yeah. Yep. 1:02:53 SM: And I did not know he was ill. I had not known the story. 1:02:57 JS: Well he was eighty-seven or something. Jesus Christ. You have the right to be ill then. 1:03:04 SM: He did a lot of a lot of good things and a lot of people will remember him and he was memorialized on my Facebook page. People that I did not even know knew him, admired him. People that had never met him, admired him. So he, it's a big loss for that period. What were some of the um, you know, this whole thing do we learn from people? Lessons of life. What were the lessons that we hopefully learned from the (19)60s so that we will not repeat them again? 1:03:41 JS: I do not know, again you are talking about that we that I am not really a part of. 1:03:49 SM: That could be you. It's your thoughts on 1:03:52 JS: Well, I did not have to give anybody a joint. 1:03:55 SM: [laughs] Yeah, that is right. 1:04:00 JS: That is what I learned. 1:04:01 SM: Because you could go to jail for it. 1:04:04 JS: Correct and I did go, to prison. 1:04:07 SM: And, and is not it, unbelievable? The number of books right now being talked about how many people are in prison for reasons that they should not even be in prison? 1:04:19 JS: Well, yeah, that is what America is all about, prisons. 1:04:23 SM: It is true. 1:04:24 JS: We got more prisoners than anybody on earth. 1:04:28 SM: Yeah. 1:04:28 JS: It is a lucrative business. 1:04:31 SM: I agree. And, and it's and again, I would hope that someday one of our leaders would take a look at this issue in more greater detail and get some of those people out of jail. I mean, they are people in jail for selling marijuana to a friend at a rock concert. I mean, come on. You know, so ̶ 1:04:56 JS: Who do you think you are talking to? 1:04:57 SM: I know. I am going to get into the Vietnam. The, some basic, general questions with not 'we', 'i' things that you think about. When the, what was your thought on the way Vietnam veterans are treated upon the return from the Vietnam War which was pretty bad. 1:05:20 JS: Well, they still treat them that way. I think it is outrageous. 1:05:24 SM: I agree. And they were dying in massive numbers compared to World War II vets they were dying faster than they died. 1:05:33 JS: Well, they had more sophisticated weaponry and chemical warfare that they were exposed to. 1:05:38 SM: Yup. Used to be just mustard gas. Right. And Agent Orange is a, is a killer. 1:05:48 JS: Do not, do not forget Napalm. Do not forget you know, they are soaking these people with fire in their villages. You know, I feel bad for the Vietnamese veterans the way they are treated but on the other hand I think they are despicable for what they did to the people in Vietnam. And I do not hear them saying they were sorry, very often is they are mostly whining about themselves. But you see if they would have stayed here, they would not have had those things happen to them that is basically my bottom line. 1:06:22 SM: Do you agree that 1:06:25 JS: I say we tried to tell you not to go. 1:06:28 SM: Yup. 1:06:28 JS: You insisted on going so you got what you deserved, I thought. 1:06:33 SM: Some got drafted though. 1:06:34 JS: I hate to say it like that, but that is the way I feel. 1:06:35 SM: Some got drafted and could not get out of the draft which is, you kind of empathize. 1:06:36 JS: Well then you did not have to go and choke the motherfuckers. 1:06:43 SM: Right. 1:06:43 JS: You should take your medicine. 1:06:48 SM: Do you think that uh, I personally have a feeling that the people that served in the war, that did not commit atrocities that is, are heroes by simply serving their nation but then I also believe the anti-war 1:07:07 JS: Oh, what was the? What did they contribute to our nation? By fighting in Vietnam? What did we get out of that? 1:07:17 SM: Well, they did not get anything out of it. 1:07:19 JS: What did we get the people they were defending? Did the Vietnamese come into our bedrooms and cut our throats at night? 1:07:26 SM: Yes, yes. Yes, that is what, that is what I am getting at. 1:07:28 JS: I do not think so. 1:07:30 SM: A lot of the anti-war movement was about not only trying to make sure we did not send men over there to die, but also to save the lives of the Vietnamese citizenry. 1:07:42 JS: Of course. 1:07:42 SM: And to be caring about them. 1:07:44 JS: Humanitarians! 1:07:45 SM: Yes and, and I do not think we do enough talking about that particular aspect of the war. That two to three million died in that war. Many most of them are innocent citizens. Because of the saturation bombing they took on the airplanes and everything else. 1:08:04 JS: Right. 1:08:05 SM: So it is. 1:08:07 JS: What I am talking about is because they are still doing it to people in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. You know, that is what they do. Now, they do not put the people on the ground so much they just are in Colorado and they send these things to bomb these people's villages. They are even uglier today than before and we got two or three wars going on at any given time. And they are endless. They have been in Afghanistan longer than they were in Vietnam. 1:08:41 SM: Right. 1:08:43 JS: Fighting a religious war. 1:08:46 SM: Now, going to another area here. You are still writing newspaper columns correct? On cannabis? 1:08:52 JS: Well, I write a marijuana column for Michigan Marijuana Reporter monthly magazine. 1:08:58 SM: Yes. And how long have you been doing that? 1:09:05 JS: Well, next week it will be my one hundred and second column. 1:09:10 SM: Wow. And you have already brought up the fact of the, you know, the marijuana, the people, the movement and everything. How many people do you think are involved in that movement right, we are now nationwide? 1:09:29 JS: Oh I have no idea. 1:09:32 SM: But you have got a big following, a lot of people are involved in this issue. 1:09:37 JS: Well, a lot of people smoke weed. 1:09:38 SM: And I just go into the store Barnes and Noble and I see a lot of a lot of magazines dealing with cannabis. 1:09:48 JS: A lot of people smoke weed. They have been at war with this for eighty years. 1:09:56 SM: And when you hear that 1:09:59 JS: And we are winning. 1:09:59 SM: The old slogan sex rock, sex, drugs and rock and roll that was what some people, that was how they defined the (19)60s and early (19)70s. What do you say? 1:09:59 JS: That is a bowdlerization of our slogan. "Walkin' low, dope and fucking in the streets." 1:10:09 SM: [laughs] Oh, wow. 1:10:21 JS: That is the original. 1:10:22 SM: Oh, okay. Huh? 1:10:24 JS: I invented that. 1:10:26 SM: And they are banning that and they are using the sex drugs and rock 'n roll huh? 1:10:31 JS: They have been for years. 1:10:35 SM: Now, things that people are now, as someone; I do not have any of your books and I would like to buy some if I could. I would pay for them and you can sign them because I'd like them to be at the research center from people. I definitely want to and I will email you on this another time. But I certainly want to have books written by you or articles that will be with your interview and a picture and everything like I do with the all the other people I am interviewing. But of all the books that you have written, which of all the books that you have written what is the one that you think people should read that they really want to know who you are 1:11:22 JS: [laughs] You know, I do not care if they know I am. That is not why I write. I write to say things. I am not into celebrity culture; means nothing to me. 1:11:34 SM: That is okay. But [inaudible] ̶ 1:11:38 JS: I do not care if they know who I am or not. 1:11:42 SM: But they will certainly remember you when they hear your commentary on things. 1:11:46 JS: That will be good. 1:11:47 SM: And that is what, that is what makes you very unique and very historic, in my view. It is, as I say, again, your involvement in so many things. It is like you are multitasking in life, and I also like the fact that you keep bringing the "I" in it. It's my life. It is my thoughts. It is my thought. I do not care what other people think. 1:12:12 JS: Well, that is all I got. 1:12:13 SM: Yeah, I guess my problem is I read too much and then I you hear this person says this and so it makes me think about what they are saying. That is why I asked the question. 1:12:22 JS: Being in an academic environment also. 1:12:24 SM: Yes. 1:12:26 JS: It is pretty stifling. That is what I think. 1:12:26 SM: So now you are obviously an activist. Now when you look at the categories the poet, the writer, the activist, the musician, the radio program, all these other. The um, is there one that stands out above other that you would not have become good in the others if it had not been for this one? Is it the fact that you. 1:12:53 JS: I do not know. I do not think like that I do not have any idea. 1:12:56 SM: You started out as a poet though. 1:12:59 JS: I am still a poet. 1:13:00 SM: Yeah, but you were a thinker, poets are thinkers. 1:13:04 JS: And I still am 1:13:05 SM: Yeah, yes, yes. Poets are thinkers and writers and ideas and ̶ 1:13:10 JS: That is what I do. 1:13:11 SM: Yeah, we will see that that is you and that is helped that think help you expand in this other world of activism and whatever the other categories we might be talking about here. 1:13:28 JS: I do not really get what you are saying. I am the same guy, whatever I am doing, I am the same guy. 1:13:34 SM: Okay, that is all I need. I do not think I have anything. Um, the, the foundation that you have right now the John Sinclair Foundation. 1:13:50 JS: Right. 1:13:51 SM: Now that is really there to protect all the things you have been involved in. Is that correct? So the copyright? 1:13:58 JS: Well, to preserve yes and extend into the future past my lifetime. 1:14:08 SM: That is excellent. Where is that located? Is that in Detroit? 1:14:12 JS: Yeah, it is in Detroit. It is not a physical thing. It is an idea. 1:14:18 SM: Okay. But when you are no longer around who is going to be protecting your stuff? 1:14:24 JS: Oh my board members. Okay very good. Yes, it includes all your books and I guess it your records and ̶ Well, I am in the process of transferring all my intellectual property ownership to the foundation. And also like, I am doing a speaking thing next week for a group of doctors and they are giving me a nice piece of money. I am donating all fees like that to my foundation because I do not need no money. 1:14:55 SM: Very good. 1:14:57 JS: I am on Social Security. 1:14:59 SM: What is your speech on? 1:15:01 JS: Marijuana. A pain conference of doctors. In Cincinnati. 1:15:10 SM: Wow. See, I know people who are dying of cancer and they need it. 1:15:17 JS: Well they need some Simpson Oil, yeah. 1:15:23 SM: We have a customer where I work who does get it and it is helping her survive. 1:15:31 JS: I know two guys that came back from their deathbed. Now, I know a lot of other people that take it since then. Because they proselytize. 1:15:41 SM: Right. 1:15:42 JS: It is good stuff. 1:15:47 SM: From the, from the (19)60s themselves who do you stay in touch with? Is there any of the; do you stay in touch with Bobby Seale and some of the other activists? 1:15:56 JS: Now I never really knew Bobby Seale. I have met him in recent years. But and I met David Hilliard in recent years, but you know, you usually see people when you go to their part of the country so I am in touch with a lot of people around here that were around in the (19)60s. 1:16:17 SM: You link up at all with I think Jeff Gibbs and the movie producers from the Flint area? 1:16:23 JS: You know, I went to their festival last week. I saw Jeff's movie "Planet of the Humans." 1:16:32 SM: How is it? 1:16:34 JS: Terrific. 1:16:38 SM: I got to go see it. 1:16:39 JS: I got to see Mike Moore. Me, Jeff and Mike all went to Davison high school. 1:16:49 SM: And, and Michael was a few years after you though, correct. 1:16:53 JS: They are both thirteen years younger than me. 1:16:55 SM: Right. Wow, they had a high school produce those three. Wow. 1:17:03 JS: [laughs] Amazing, huh? 1:17:03 SM: Yeah, but what is it about Flint? Now, not just the high school, but what is it about Flint that can create three people like you? 1:17:15 JS: Oh we were beyond Flint, we were in Davison, like you know, five thousand people when they were there. [laughs] A great place. It used to be called the vehicle city. When I was a kid in the fifties they had three shifts in the factories around the clock. They had Buick, Chevrolet, Fisher Body, AC spark plugs, Delco batteries, they had all kinds of factories. Powerful little place. 1:17:53 SM: Well Michael Moore's movies have certainly had an impact on people. 1:17:57 JS: Oh yeah, if you had ten Michael Moore’s this would be a different country. 1:18:00 SM: I agree. And he is and he is got a movie, he is probably got another movie in mind he is one after another. 1:18:07 JS: I am sure he does. Well, he edited this one with Jeff. 1:18:10 SM: Right. 1:18:14 JS: He was saying how much fun he had doing some hands on editing because he does not get to edit his own. [laughs] 1:18:24 SM: I guess when since a lot of what I am talking about is the era you grew up in and the America that you grew up in. I am going to say the 1950s (19)60s, (19)70s and (19)80s. And then we got the (19)90s and now. But people our age, those are the ̶ those are the formative years. When you think about those formative years, and you think about America, and you think of what I know you have you have some very negative things to say but what do you think what do you say to the people that are listening to this? When you look at those forty years of post war, say post World War II America and right through to Ronald Reagan, what do you say? What do you say about that? 1:19:13 JS: Well, it is better than post Reagan. You know the ugliness of today started with Reagan. Although Trump makes Reagan look like Socrates. 1:19:32 SM: Now that is a quote. 1:19:34 JS: And he was a stupid motherfucker and a terrible actor. 1:19:40 SM: Yeah, one of the things will always we will never forget about Ronald Reagan is his insensitivity towards people with AIDS. 1:19:48 JS: Well, anybody that was not white and straight. This just came forward in one of his racist conversations with Nixon, just in the news this week. 1:20:05 SM: When would you say that? In the (19)60s and (19)70s, we were taking many steps forward in the positive, trying to get rid of racism, sexism and homophobia. So we take two steps. 1:20:17 JS: Well, we were you know, the opposition was but the government and the establishment was opposing every step of the way. And they still are. Because you see they are the problem. This is their world, that 1 percent that rules all of this, it is their fault. [laughs] Until you deal with them, it is going to keep getting worse and worse and worse. 1:20:43 SM: [inaudible] 1:20:44 JS: They own everything. 1:20:45 SM: What I was going to say was ̶ 1:20:46 JS: They own every newspaper, every TV station, every movie, every record, they own everything. 1:20:54 SM: Well, when you consider the 2 percent of the population makes more than the 80 percent of the rest of the population that says something right there. 1:21:22 JS: Yeah, not very eloquently. 1:21:22 SM: The thing I am really getting at is that back then there was a perception that we were making two steps forward for every step backward now, some other thoughts that were for every step forward we are taking two steps backward. Is that a good description? 1:21:26 JS: I do not know. I know this asshole came in there and everything [inaudible] that the president did that was positive, he dismantled every bit of it. 1:21:34 SM: Right. 1:21:35 JS: What do you call that? That is a lot more than two steps backwards. 1:21:40 SM: You are right. 1:21:42 JS: When you put someone like Betsy DeVos in charge of the Education Department that is like a mile backwards. 1:21:53 SM: What would be your final thoughts on the (19)60s? Just your overall final thoughts on the (19)60s. The era that you say is from 1960 to (19)70? Not on, that is. 1:22:07 JS: Well that is the (19)60s, yeah. 1:22:10 SM: Yeah. Well, just give some adjectives to your final thoughts on that ten years here in America? 1:22:22 JS: I do not know. I do not think that way. I do not know what you want me to say. 1:22:29 SM: Any, any if you looked if you took the whole ten years, what would you say to someone? This is? This is what the ten years was about. 1:22:38 JS: I would not. 1:22:43 SM: So basically what you are saying is that everybody has their own thoughts, and it is the context. 1:22:48 JS: Correct. 1:22:48 SM: It is their context, not your context. 1:22:52 JS: Well, I mean, I do not think about it like that. It was a period in life you know, I have lived almost eight decades. They were all interesting. They were all different. What I did was different and in some ways the same but that ten years it was fun that is the way I look at it. It was fun and the ̶ I ended up in prison. 1:23:22 SM: And you grew from that, obviously, that experience really helped shape you. 1:23:28 JS: Well what else could I do? You live through it or you commit suicide. There is only two ways. 1:23:35 SM: Well you went in there, and then Supreme Court decision. I mean, the impact! That never happened. 1:23:41 JS: But that did not have anything to do with my jail sentence. That was a whole different case. You mean the US Supreme Court. 1:23:49 SM: Yes, yes. 1:23:51 JS: No, that was a whole different case. 1:23:52 SM: Right. 1:23:53 JS: That did not have anything to do with marijuana. I got nine and a half to ten years for possession of two marijuana cigarettes. 1:24:02 SM: Which was ridiculous. 1:24:05 JS: But that is what it was. 1:24:06 SM: It was outlandish and that is why everybody came to your support and the song and everything else. 1:24:11 JS: Right. 1:24:13 SM: And lastly, you would never; I do not think you would ever. Did you ever meet John Lennon? 1:24:19 JS: Sure. 1:24:21 SM: What was it like to meet him? What are your thoughts on him? 1:24:25 JS: Like meeting other male human being. 1:24:30 SM: Of course he was taken from us in 1980. 1:24:33 JS: Yeah. 1:24:38 SM: And from what I have read, is the reason why the Mr. Hoover in the whatever the FBI started getting on his case, when he started doing the song, John Sinclair or something like that in the protests. 1:24:53 JS: They did what now? 1:24:55 SM: I have read in the, in some books that when that concert happened or in that concert where he [together] sang the song, where he sang the song and Yoko's right by his side, that may have been the impetus for the CIA and Mr. Hoover or of course, he is FBI, I should say ̶ 1:25:15 JS: I was also the fault of that asshole senator Helms. 1:25:18 SM: Right. 1:25:21 JS: He wrote to J. Edgar Hoover that this guy in the Beatles was causing trouble and J. Edgar Hoover wanted to know: who were the Beatles. 1:25:29 SM: Yup. Yup. Any final thoughts you want to say on anything? 1:25:37 JS: No. I am not ready to quit. 1:25:41 SM: Just keep going. I want to meet you in person. 1:25:44 JS: Well you have to come to Detroit right now. 1:25:47 SM: Now what I am going to do is I am going to try to come in next 1:25:49 JS: I will be in Cincinnati next Friday. 1:25:52 SM: I cannot do that but you will be at the event next year, will not you? 1:25:57 JS: Which one? 1:25:58 SM: The anniversary of the event we were talking about, the one in April. 1:26:09 JS: Oh, Hash Bash. I go every year. 1:26:13 SM: Well, that, that is where I am going to try to make it next year. 1:26:15 JS: Okay. 1:26:16 SM: Because I know a couple of people that I have interviewed and they are your friends and so they gave me your name and in so I just I would like to meet you because I would like to meet you because you are an activist. 1:26:30 JS: Well, God willing, I will be there. 1:26:32 SM: Yep. But let me just say, I will close with this. We will send you the university, we will send you a copy of this. It will be sent to your email address, I believe? 1:26:43 JS: Yeah. 1:26:44 SM: And they will send it to you and then you have to listen to it to approve it. And then then it will be approved and then it will be used for research and scholarship here at the Binghamton University with the other two hundred, two hundred seventy five other people I have interviewed. 1:27:00 JS: Good. 1:27:00 SM: In the archives, so people and we got to get a good picture of you. And I want your books and I will email you so that if there is books that you have that I can purchase from you, I will pay you and if you could sign them so they will be at the university with your interview. 1:27:15 JS: Will do. 1:27:17 SM: And, John, I want to thank you for being honest and direct, and being who you are. And, and when I had those melodramatic pauses it was because, man, this man knows what he wants. He knows he knows. He knows what he believes in. And that is, I like that in people. I like that in people. And I think and young people need to know that they are in control of their lives. 1:27:44 JS: Yeah, that is what you got to find out. 1:27:47 SM: You got to you got to believe in something too. So you have a great day. 1:27:52 JS: Thanks. Good luck. 1:27:53 SM: Thank you. Yep. Thank you. Bye now. 1:27:55 JS: Bye. (End of Interview) Subject LCSH Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Musicians; Sinclair, John--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Sinclair https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f04f940ad7b25d0c816d222a43dc4cd0.m4a d7ecc4c1ccd4f436a179e129b0ac3277 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f4576cb1911528e1dd7943c4b451f21b.m4a 1a0e1c7ca252b78bad7be9d213b59bf8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f2403014ac9ed024b9da9ca54253ef75.m4a 618c7bd5ce4b6be7846d8334239e6cdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. 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The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Warski, John Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1977-11-16 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 31:22 Minutes ; 26:42 Minutes ; 4:42 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56047">Interview with John Warski</a> Subject LCSH Warski, John -- Interviews; Austria; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Jessup (Pa.); Endicott (N.Y.); Immigrants -- Interviews; Carpenters -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; House construction Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Broome County Oral History Project</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: John Warski Sr.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 16 November 1977</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to John Warski Sr. of Cafferty Hill Rd., Endicott, New York on Nov. 16, 1977. Mr. Warski let us start at the beginning when you arrived in America.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: I came this country–-Beginning from little boy, something.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Yes, you can start at that time.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Well when I was a little boy I was interested little bit in carpentry job. We had a little farm, not much. I can't make a living from that, my father dead in job, what they call Carpo now, he go to work over there they been 1907.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: You came to this country in 1907?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Yes I come in 1907. I come to this country in 1907. My father go to work over there and they kill him in job. I comes over here landed go through Bremen, Germany and landed in Baltimore. From Baltimore they bring us grandchildren, four or five, six people together they come to Pennsylvania, Olyphant.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Excuse me, did you come to Baltimore by train or boat?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Oh, we came by boat—ship.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Did you go to Ellis lsland first?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: No, Baltimore they got Casa Garda in building. New York is different what they call Casa Garda, Baltimore is different. Comes over here brings in May 1907. We go together to Olyphant—those people they have father and cousin over there but I have address to my cousin in the Jessup next place over there. They get out of Olyphant. I go out with them too. I don't know nothing too much about it…how it goes. They go find those people their cousin and when they found out so I get different address I not belong to them. I take a walk about one mile from </span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Olyphant they show me where to go up to Jessup. When I come to the Jessup I walk by the railroad tracks come to Jessup and sit on the bench between the bushes and grass—been thinking—what am I going to do? What am I going to ask for? Y</span><span style="font-weight: 400;">ou know what it is.</span><span style="font-weight: 400;">&nbsp;Then I see man walking by the railroad track inspect the track they got hammer and wrench. I look over there well recognize he been from my village, he work on that track over there. He look on me that I sit over there he don't know me—he know me old country all right been me—been working for the priest been neighbor of the priest. Then after while he looked willow and I starting to call the name Mike! Mihal! Mihal! See I don't know the language, nothing. He stop, look, look stop and start to go again…I start holler again to by the name—he start I started to come to him and he started to come to me, we get together just been in front house where he been living—he rented house by the tracks. I told him who I am—he been surprised what I doing over here. I explain that few people they take up in Olyphant but my address been over here—they tell me to use what got address—I had address fellow been my mother's sister's husband his name Orayko. Well then comes there he takes me in a house he been married been village across river just like Susquehanna that woman been come from there… Well I take wash up every morning come from old country they have to wash themselves wash—all kinds of people, you know. She give me eat this, this. After while that cousin I have address to him he come from work. He live same house just other people rented boarding over there. When they come from work he find out I was over there and he come to me started to talk this, that—then he go to store, buy me some clothing—little bit cheap clothing so—I don't have just—what I had on myself, some shoes like that. Then in about 2 days he ask the boss about the job for me for the breaker, breaker that big building—so breaked the dumped coal in big lumps and when they break in pieces they screen it—they call it breaker, coal breaker. I get a job over there to pick slate—see they got of place. Sitting over there they keep the hands down—chute go down got little bench—piece board over there they keep their feet like that when (pold) roll down—see something—try they got another chute for the rock. I work there 10 hours a day I think so 9 hours a day. $1.00 on a day, yeah. I been working for little while and I ask that cousin, I come to him—figure like same job only different factory—dumped different type of rock. I ask him been needed man for the driver up the colander dump where they dump all rock they give me that job over there for the driver. I been working over there two to three years, maybe 2 years I don't know something like that before I started again to pick slate. I don't know how long that happened maybe one year something like that—I changed the jobs so on the rock. Then after while I don’t know how long I work the breaker burned down. No job. Been working at home. I have to do something. I have two guys been working in a paper mill near Watertown, Dexter, New York near Canada. I wrote a letter and they tell me come on up and maybe you will get a job there. So I come and two days later over there I look around I come later—I had friends and they take me on the board from my village and I wrote to him. I get up in the morning been living by the paper mill, by the factory. I just go there look it over how they make the paper so interesting. I asked them first should can I go inside—yeah, you go in there—nobody bother you. Take a look inside the shop. Then I saw some kind of guy—sport— well find out he been superintendent of that shop. He talk to me and asked—well that happened later, he talked to me and make ask—"You look for job?" Yeah. “Well come afternoon sometime tell me sometime in afternoon, then you come get your job.” I said, all right. Well then he go for a little while, well, half hour—well you better start tomorrow morning. All right—I come tomorrow morning ask—he look, look on me and don't say nothing. I ask him for what happened to my job you promised me yesterday? “Oh! I forgot it—” Well he give job to work down in the basement with water been in machine, lots to explain. Then after while l work I don't know how long I work, I been interesting been recognizing the building the fireman. I like look lots time how they work—Italian Jew boss engage on the boiler, that's all. Just the boss. Then I ask if you remember get the job get another boss in the same company, see. This factory where I go different building. They give me job, said you take the job if you want it. Well then—I want to wheel coal or ashes from the boiler—see they push cart inside boiler, they got regular tracks, open door coal run down, sometimes fireman when visit somebody gets close to boiler, if far away have shovel to them. Then clean fire, put ashes on pile—I have to take the wheelbarrow, my job to wheel like on a dump, other side of boiler. Then I work while I plan how the fireman throw the coal, how they look interesting. Then after a while been chance I ask the boss, I like fireman head per man—headman run all the business and helper get busy, too, work to do. Then after while chance coming somebody quit, something like that, they give me job, helper. I started fireman, started fireman work for little while, I don't know how long, I can't explain, never keep track of maybe year or something like that they been fireman, head man quit. They give me job—head man. So I have to know what start water pump, fill those tanks have outside the hill—they got lots of things, you know. They got to take care of boiler, clean the boiler inside. Every Sunday, I take every second Sunday you got to got go inside the boiler, drain water out, coal out, put cold water something like that… I been thinking this way—Well little while—two guys they telling that paper mill over there—they been working there—they quit—work Bridgeport, Conn.—Bridgeport, Conn.—the shipyard work. They wrote the letter—I think so I going to try it—maybe I'll get a job. I quit over there and go to Bridgeport, Conn. Well, I find some Russian lady from Russia, they board over there—I find board. Next day so I go to shipyards, well, when I come over there, there is a line people that with the tools, everything, carpenter, short wait for the job. Boss coming in the line just take maybe one or two, call us— look what he got, this and that and after while said—no job no more. Everybody pick up tools, mad, swear like hell. (chuckle) Well, I go out—he never ask me even and I go home where I been boarding over there—I think so no use staying over here. Might as well go back to Dexter. When I come back I remember it was like Decoration Day, I see it in Bridgeport—make the parade on Decoration Day. See I don't know what it been, I just know it was Decoration Day. And I come back to Dexter—I ask for job—they give me job for the other boiler room. The company have lot of factory not so far—maybe good size—the block away. They make a clear type of paper—the other one they make a rough paper—something like that. They give me the job for the helper—they wheel coal, yes, that's right, wheel coal just the same thing like before and said you going to get chance you going to get that job. And so some guy somebody going to quit job, helper, been quit, he don't want to work or something I don't know—he put me like helper. That fireman I before work in coal little bit I have change fireman sitting I took the shovel and I throw it, coal, shut the doors, I train myself. He show me how. He like me and he do something so he talked to night watchman been German ‘cause change every week, different shift, one week daytime and one week night time. He told something against those helpers say he don't want to work don't care much to working so he put me on there. One time the helper no come no more, they get fired. I don't know anyhow he no come no more. Last time I work with the helper, last time I work with the helper then those firemen get sick or something, I get head </span><span style="font-weight: 400;">fireman. I been work 2 years or something like that. One time I get argument with the boss with the boiler room, ah, Jessup on account of big pipe—lift those clinkers what they call them they get banded too much to explain—I have on my mind to quit. To come to Endicott—then I quit them over there—I came to Endicott. In Endicott I got work with that carpenter. I don't know his name forgot his name he used to build those Burt Building contractor. So before that he work on houses living by the river, Susquehanna, few houses. After while we started build house get contract to build Cibulsky on Rogers Ave. See The Endicott Lumber Box Co. Make the contract The Box Co. make the contract on Saturday and about middle week U.S. declare war for the Germany.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: What year was that?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Oh, old country, yeah, U.S. declare war and they just start war business. Then I get job right away with the Box Co. He give me work he give me job carpenter so I work with Cibulsky house, Shefchuk house, and Prosmans… Besides working on other houses way up on other houses where the park (possibly Rabble Ave) pausing—thinking….That all right all right—somebody start talking about IBM—IBM they had just only had one building from that time had little building—supposed to be call ITR. I just try for the luck, so might get it job there. I ask for carpenter job there because IBM make clocks there. I go to office ask them there said maybe you get job but boss on vacation. Come back. You take the job, take anything to get inside, before boss come maybe they could show you job you ask for. I take the job where some kind of parts on machine on little machine they bend it you know. Work a little while then move (spare)—so IBM soon gonna pretty soon close it you know—no business—IBM—no IBM but I—well—Think so like that so I go to EJ—tannery. Before that I worked in the tannery too—forgot to mention see. But I get back the same job in tannery. Little by little IBM started to build up—but that too late.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Who was your boss in the Tannery?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Where, EJ? Griffis just name I forgot but been old man but his son been boss too, foreman Lee Griffis I guess, I think so Lee. I work little while there sometime dinnertime had chance to go to boiler room over there to look around—I interesting in the fireman—all the time. I go over there to look around—been short U.S. take all men then for the war. Already they have been short. Asked boss about the job. He said here take this job, maybe few days, maybe so wheel ashes and coal and then I put you for regular fireman—they fire by the shovel at the time then after while they those put automatically. Then I started to work later two days or few weeks I don't know in the boiler room, one time I get sick a little bit—this had flu—start people get the flu—</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Is that the influenza?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Yes influenza, yes. I don't come to work—nobody been tell the boss, so I no show up—I been living at that new houses on Rogers Ave. See he come in the house—boss engineer room engine and the boiler, forgot his name. And said what is the matter? You sick? Yeah, feel been sick little bit not much well feel little bit. He said please if you can come to work—ain't got no men—all men been over there they take in the army be working on that job. Next day I come back to work. I came to work. I come back back to work until war was over. War was over that man on his job come back and put that man on his job on my place. They put me wheeling coal. I don't want it. Wheeling coal, I quit. I quit and then after a while I did not know what I did.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: After the boys came back from service?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: From service yeah, same fella, they got job back.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: So where did you work?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: I can remember—I guess I work spare time, carpenter and you know lots of steam heat-plumbing but I know little bit. Then I forget the track where I work.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Where did you live? Did you live with Cibulsky?&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Yeah, I boarded up to Cibulsky—yeah—then war over—about year or year a half something like that—I take my wife over here and I move it up stairs—remember?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Yeah.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: I renter up there.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Your wife came from Europe. Did you get married here or over there?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Ha! I got married in the old country. In old country before they said maybe I come second time over here—I forgot to mention—see when I come at 22 years—happen have 3 classes to join the army—Austria—I come from Austria. But then, after a while Poland taken—taken that—wife come from Poland because they Polish people, their country. So, I suppose to come before draft, last time, third time, two time no pass but third time pass—if no pass—you can marry—been low all the time. I couldn't come before third—finish it. They draft me to Army—Austria—well no call me—well I come I have to report to village right away. Next day I wait for call—they call me next year for doctor's like that.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: You were in America when they called you?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Over there old country. When time times got letter to go to doctor—to visit—they draft me that time and in fall or beginning spring. In the Fall they call me to doctor—to army. I been in army 12 months, no 12 weeks—you know why—the other way be 3 years. I make claim exemption—what they call—I make support—mother—They had village secretary they have to care few villages like that—she got voice—"a pull"—yeah, a pull—you just have to go for the training—something if happen bad you have to go just the same. They gave me release. When I come back—I marry after. I leave wife 9 months.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Then you came with Mrs. Warski to Endicott—is that right? Mrs. Warski and you came back to Endicott after married in Europe?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Come to Rogers Ave.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: How did you find the village there—not many houses in Endicott or buildings?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Well, Cibulsky’s—North Side—no be many.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: How about downtown, fire station—on Washington Ave.?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: They have State Bank—fire station—Endicott Trust Co.—fireman—fire—</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Did they have many stores on Washington Ave.?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: When I come from Binghamton on a train—come from old country second time—I be mention to go back to paper mill—remember—yeah, after while I have little little argument with boss so I quit. I have in mind to come over here—I came to Binghamton—from Binghamton take street car to Endicott to Cibulsky’s—living up there. The street car—I told you I go old country back. In street car nothing—just street car—farms, farms, nothing—Johnson City—just little bit houses. I come to Endicott some places—lots of many have sidewalks from the boards—some places have no sidewalks, at all—No (greens). Come to Cibulsky’s rented house on Odell Ave.—they use have Greek Ice cream parlor, Trubach—they make a suit. Cibulsky—I lived up there—kitchen upstairs and two small rooms—Schuler live been with wife, have kids already—John been already there. (Chuckling) They put couch in the kitchen by the stove—he sleeping there, Cibulsky. When I got job with carpenter—I make in few different places—you know, Burt Store—you know they started before I worked there. Then we start talking about houses—Cibulsky, she say, “John, please talking maybe built house because he go away and spend money all the time.” “All right, I gonna try.” One time I talk to him, I say you make house, that no good. Well, if you want I help you. I told him—maybe give him money—I did not mention I gonna borrow money—but I help you. Then we start talk ‘bout plans and houses and lot. No place to build house. He work in Calfskin Tannery that time—I work in boiler room—no, I don't yet—that all right—I don't work in EJ yet—I work in Box Co. building houses—he said he didn't want go go to Sales Building to lawyer asking about lot—give it free.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Gave lots to workers free?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Yeah. Sure! Well he says he don't want to go—just told me—just go take a lot—ask for lot. I go and they never ask me, “you work over here or not?” No lawyer ask me. They give me lot by the lot by the Miszaks—Squires Ave… When we start making contract—Box Co. ask for the lot. We give them deed told them where that lot is—he go Sales Building—Box Co. after we come back—later we get letter that lot somebody use it—ain't got no lot. They make plans for house already—just to build the house. They go ask Sales Building to ask to give you another lot. I go Sales Building—I told him—I told him something like that—you give lot to somebody else. They give Rogers Ave—They say Warski, you want that—that is the only place on all Rogers Ave.—they have no sewer but pretty soon they have sewers. We take that where house stands and they start to build that house and I get that job over there—I ask them—I work over there on that house.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: When did you work in the tannery—after you built houses?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Yeah, after while when they finish the building—something—Box Co. don't have no job—stop the building—so I go to tannery. Then I get fireman that man after while that man come from—I take his place—here I mentioned before. Well I go take—he take—to my job on machine inside tannery. Well, I work until—all you know how it happened—cut out—closed—no more tannery, there.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: No more tannery? What?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: IBM they got.&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Now, but am I talking about before that?&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: I working ‘til pretty soon near finish—I go to retire—before—</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Before you retired, you did not finish telling me about the time before you were building houses, all? When did your wife come—</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: After that? Came from Europe.&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: And you had your own home on Roosevelt Ave?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: My wife come in Rogers Ave. We live it already there—I rent upstairs and I paid board downstairs. Then I tell been in the hall—my wife—we live during winter time, we don't want to move it—people, see, I gonna move it out in spring, this people move out and I move it upstairs.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Did you have electricity, then, in the house?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: In Rogers Ave.—yes and then when I live it with Cibulsky come late—this and this—I don't want to talk over there about it—you know how it is—decided might as well build own house, have lot already. I hire contractor, dig cellar, put concrete wall, (petition), everythings I do myself, not myself, Cibulsky help me. Somebody else, somebody—some friend help me, plasterman—I have electricity, too well, all finishing work inside I do myself. I work in tannery, night time. Spare time I work house myself. I have no electricity that time like Rogers Ave.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: What did you use for electricity?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: I use, borrow Pizur lamp go fishing before I get my electric. Then I put plumbing heat myself, some little help, myself.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: What church did you attend?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Well when I comes over to Endicott they have no church, they have Roman Catholic, I been board with Slavic people and they belong that Slavic church and she started, the lady, “What doncha come—to one time—big bunch of men go Sunday church.” Well, we say we try the church—we understand nothing—I do what they do, that's all. We come to here in Binghamton we go to Baxter Street one time and then I come to Endicott—they have there Cibulsky, was there—I started to go Endicott church.&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Many families or very few familes when you went there?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Those (Hrodenski) they no like - you know.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Where they Carpo-Russians?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: No—from Russia—those from Hrodenski gubernia—no can explain—they don't like to go church much and they—we—mostly mostly those (oohorski)—Carpo-Russians—they ruin that church that time—the be boss that church that time—they after while they split. They call meeting, lawyer come, they make a splitting, they have 4 or 5 lots where school is—front of church and half cemetery—they’re take those lots.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Who took the lots?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: The Carpatho-Russians. See, they have safe—the Carpatho-Russians—those oohorski—</span><span style="font-weight: 400;">like this something—they, Russian put make red ink.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: When do they mean red mark?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: They mark something difference—last heard that, I never see that—they no explain they go to court, supposed to be go to court. That time, Russian priest been Borisoff—he had safe, small safe, in church now. He knows lock in safe and book, Bible, book record, by law.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Book of By-Laws?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Yes, he look everything been side—Carpatho-Russian this side no good. Something </span><span style="font-weight: 400;">like that. Take that book—destroy it—that priest—put someplace in the fire. They changed lock in safe and when come open it—you want to open it—try open—they open—they can't open—the leaders—they take those safe to court and courtroom open safe to show proof who boss. (Chuckling) And when come to court, open safe—hire somebody—I never been there—I don't know—then open it, was been surprised—nothing there—they find no record—no record—given to Russian—got be Russian, go away somewhere. After a while got to take safe back to church—I got motorcycle, side car, I take the safe in sidecar.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Did you put the safe in sidecar?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: I put safe in sidecar and was so heavy that pressed down and take back house.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Church was built—did they say—about monks built the church?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Build church, like mostly cheap way, like shack, plaster like that—they don't have nothing much—have have (prestol)—built from the boxes like that—(this part in Russian—translation) </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">lector reads below—the priest Rashtakoff had a book on instructions—he read up on it which told how the altar table should be built.</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> That is difficult—this way, this way, put the top on (ha! ha!) make something like this—then monks hire from monastery—they build the bell and iconostasis—the iconostasis they build but posts—suppose to be—they make different—they have saw and hammer they got—they hire 2 men from Binghamton to make—do that—iconostasis—they just make post—no tsarski dverior royal doors—just opening—then I—left—they left—no finish, complain, don't make no money. Then I think to myself—I make the tsarski dveri—royal doors in garage Rogers Ave.&shy; Those posts—come plaster paris—those posts come—they design—they have to make hollow—that caps—lots of work—bottom have to be filled—inside cap hollow—some kind fit to even up—take time. Then I look around—new church—not much old church—repairs—bell—leaking around closet—</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: What year new church started?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: I think 1914—1916 been already.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: When you talk of your house, how much to build your house fifty years ago?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: I never keep track because I do work myself—somebody help me—little bit I make checks to pay for material—just like that—pay cash—never keep track—never bother to keep track. One time have time to figure how much cost—I lost and forgot about it.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: How many children did you have?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Three children. </span><span style="font-weight: 400;">When retire from EJ—</span><span style="font-weight: 400;">66 years—I work—wait when my wife get pension—65 years old.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Did your wife work?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: No, she work in house—she get half—I had 66 years—77—89 years now.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: After your wife died then you sold your home?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: I live there pretty near 10 years alone—sold 2 years ago.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Do you live with your son and daughter in law at present?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Yes.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Were you glad you came here instead of living in Europe?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: I was glad to be get here what I have there—I got to work for somebody else just like I get eat twice a day—and 30 and 40 cents a daytime. Just like I come first like come go back to old country before—I try it I make one of those carpenter job business, in the house. I figure I work on the land for somebody—I want to make some money.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Where, here or there?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Here. And where (spotty) work—I make those furniture—somebody in village give me make table, bed anything like that. I had neighbor work wagon make wheel—wagon—they call it—he know I handy—he need help. He said learn those things. He been good mechanic—hell of lot better than I, needs work on wagon—business then make table something, like that. Better come to help me—3 years—learn make wheel.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Like an apprentice?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">John: Yeah. This is better—you make table—something like that—he had store—little store, too—had a farm—little big farm—he can get—take so many jobs—he good mechanic—want to push for that thing it away—people waiting for—You learn it. You have better trade. Then I get neighbor—about block away—when come to work, eat sleep that's all—all right. I have my own bench. When I come to this country—I have been—brothers—they have somebody use—they need repair I make them new one—make new one—sometimes old one they throw away—bench take his house—he got his own if he have time—he got to work on farm—I come—first he show me—he give me job with a knife—to make a spoke. First thing plane on one end—scrape—then round it—give me—came from the farm—he been working farm. Well how wheels you make it on farm—look it over—I just finish it—look it over—I just been finish and he look over and said, “By gosh, you been make than I.” Then—this, this. I stay 3 months—finish my job—times come—I learn my job—I had just time—times come in—I go this country—have no change to work. Besides here I travel, Bridgeport. I forgot to mention—I don't like that job—I can't get into shipyards. I forget—I take walk in street—see sign “Wheel Wright”—make wagon repair. Like that sometime horses pull wagon—wheel go broke—take shop and repair it. They was one German and one Irish. I look them over—there they make ‘em body, first body they see just body of bus—school drived kids—before like taxi—bodies make there—Slovak work there on this body—Body like bus—like delivery—bus big one. We started talking with Slovak we mention—he asked me who I am—explain—what I did old country—this—this we need men like you over here—other man fixed wheel—sometimes broken wheel—sometimes he come to work and sometimes not. Those boss want to push him out but he afraid to push him out because no replace it—used to be got different job—see—like a regular school bus. Say, “Who want to take that job?” Said different work like old country but I fix you up—I show you—it easy—all right—you got a job. Come tomorrow—I have no clothes for that job—I loan you—you buy some. When I came those men no show up—get drunk—they never come. l work about 1 month—have no place to board—sleep like dog—any place—I no like it—I quit. I don’t want—I can’t eat, got to restaurant—something like that went—so many people in Bridgeport because they shipyard—so many workers over there. They say—I tell Slovak—try again—make me restaurant—boarding house—something like that—I take the boarding house—I have nothing left for me. What have nothing pay? I quit. I tell the boss—and he say, “MMMMMMMMMMMM—if I knew—I fire those men—what am I going to do now?” (Chuckle) Then I quit, go back to paper mill.</span></p> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Warski Subject The topic of the resource Warski, John -- Interviews; Austria; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Jessup (Pa.); Endicott (N.Y.); Immigrants -- Interviews; Carpenters -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; House construction Description An account of the resource John Warski talks about his interest in carpentry as a young boy after emigrating to the U.S. in 1907 from Austria, and going to Jessup, PA. He describes finding his way in a new country on his own and finding working in the boiler room at a factory where he shoveled coal into the boiler. He tells of leaving to go work in Endicott as a carpenter, and later at Endicott Johnson. He also discusses building his home. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 62 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/af9a347cb9b1f4bc60ba4f7899732397.jpg 1a9995d7f99da6c64aa20ccbc2f9bf8c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a2dfde44a49cbc7dec6867796fcb6f94.mp3 4e7590ec67e961a32cdaa69a4368c2cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-07-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Wheeler, 1944-2010 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15107,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}" data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;John Wheeler (1944-2010) was an Army officer, consultant, lawyer, chairman of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, senior planner for Amtrak, and CEO of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. He also was a member of the Council of Foreign Relations, a special assistant to the Secretary of the Air Force, as well as serving as a presidential aide to the Ronald Reagan, George H.W. and George W. Bush administrations. Wheeler was a graduate from West Point, Harvard, and Yale.&quot;}">John Wheeler (1944-2010) was an Army officer, consultant, lawyer, chairman of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, senior planner for Amtrak, and CEO of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. He also was a member of the Council of Foreign Relations, a special assistant to the Secretary of the Air Force, as well as serving as a presidential aide to the Ronald Reagan, George H.W. and George W. Bush administrations. Wheeler was a graduate from West Point, Harvard, and Yale.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 153:04 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; West Point; disenfranchised group; \&quot;We Were Soldiers Once ... and Young\&quot;(book); Bobby Muller; Vietnam Memorial; Women's Memorial; Glenna Goodacre; Rhodes Scholar; Jim Webb; \&quot;Touched with Fire\&quot;(book).&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Vietnam War; West Point; disenfranchised group; "We Were Soldiers Once ... and Young" (book); Bobby Muller; Vietnam Memorial; Women's Memorial; Glenna Goodacre; Rhodes Scholar; Jim Webb; "Touched with Fire" (book).</span> Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Lawyers; Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund; Wheeler, John, 1944-2010--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Wheeler Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 23 March 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:07): Sometimes it is [inaudible]. I just clear it away. You stated in that foreign affairs... I am going to make sure I read these correctly because I have some quotes here. You state in a foreign affairs article in the spring of (19)85 that, how our country finally comes to grips with Vietnam will depend on how the Vietnam generation comes to grips with its own experiences. We are in 2010 now, that was (19)85. How would you answer this today? JW (00:00:35): We are doing it poorly because we live inside the human condition. One example is, we still have cases of stolen valor. You have got politicians running for office, making up that they served in Vietnam or that they served in Iraq and Afghanistan, which is just the latest shoot on that tree, but it is the human condition. Humans do not do well at adjusting to war and its effects. That does not mean that writing on the subject and the working on it is not a good thing. It just means it is hard. The debates we have now in Congress, in the Council on Foreign Relations of which I am a member on the current issues, for example, the rules of engagement or on the way the defense department's being run, the Pentagon, all echo for me now just another verse. It is like Dante, almost. Just another big verse and set of couplets out of, I am afraid, it is inferno. It is not the Paradiso. From 1968 to 2010, now we have Robert Gates who is making many of the same mistakes as McNamara. I know that because I was in the building with McNamara and then Clark Clifford, I worked there. SM (00:02:13): Right. JW (00:02:15): The difference is, Gates does not have the depth and breadth of character that Robert McNamara had, and that is a big difference. SM (00:02:30): What were the most important influences in your life? I know your dad and your military background and I interviewed Peter Coyote yesterday, the actor, and of course, he comes from a new left background. Totally different from your background, but when I asked him the question, I said, "When you look at your life up to this point in 2010, what are the specific events? Can you name three to five personalities, people, events, happenings that made you who you are today?" How would you respond to that? JW (00:03:04): Well, it has to be my mom who grew up on a ranch in way West Texas. We are not talking just Laredo and Webb County. We are talking Asherton, Texas. And she is Irish from that part of the state. My dad is an army brat. My grandfather was cavalry from Texas and so those are formative. My brother was formative for me. He died suddenly three years ago. That is a huge loss, helping me realize the answer to your question, how important my brother was. Shared memories and a sounding board through life. We were just barely 20 months apart in age. After that, it would be, I would have to say C.S. Lewis. Increasingly, as we age, we realize that people who influence us are not necessarily close friends. They are people whose-whose spirit or presence means a lot. C.S. Lewis and my uncle John Conley, who received the Silver Star for conduct in that first low-level raid of the B-29s over Tokyo, March 8 and 9, 1945. They were significant. Their memory, what they did and what they stood for. C.S. Lewis, because the way he writes and deals with issues of faith works for me, works for my DNA and my background. Although, and I believe in faith that I will meet him. I am a little nervous about that because he is a big gruff Irishman. I am not sure how we will get along. You know, he died the same day, and I actually calculated, the same hour as John Kennedy. SM (00:05:05): November 22, (19)63. JW (00:05:06): Yeah, the same hour, actually though, it is interesting, when you account for the time change between London and Texas. It was just interesting. SM (00:05:14): How old was he when he died? JW (00:05:15): He was 63. SM (00:05:17): Young. JW (00:05:17): He was young. Help me, one other guy died that day. You got to Google it. Three, and they were all Irish. I think all three were Irish. Anyway, Jack Kennedy and of course, Jack Lewis' nickname was Jack, happened to die that same day. At West Point, the Kennedy assassination was significant. Little did I know that also, at that same hour, another Irishman named Jack was taken and Google and find that other third. There were three significant personalities died that day. That is a good way to answer your question. West Point is significant. It is significant for everybody that goes there in different ways. SM (00:05:58): Yeah, yeah. I have actually known people who have gone to West Point. We had a couple of our students that went there and I do not know, they got in after they finished two years of college, but they wanted to go to West Point, so they got in and they graduated. One of them was the mayor of West Chester, Pennsylvania's son was at West Point. I know he served in Iraq, but duty, honor, country was something, even when you, in this book where there were differences of opinion about the war, even amongst the veterans of the Vietnam War, even there was still, no matter what the differences may have been and the frictions that took place over politics, no one ever lost that. The feeling of... There was a sense that that was something so important. How important has that been in your life? Just those three words, not only from your service in Vietnam, what you have done since Vietnam, but going into Vietnam West Point and serving for four years. JW (00:07:02): They are as important for me as any other man in my West Point class or for the women now, who go. It is important to note that it was in June, actually, May of 2005 that the 10000th woman graduated from the five Federal academies, and do not forget that James Webb and I parted company over that issue. The women going to the academies. That was his article November, 1979. Washingtonian women cannot fight. Now, he tells people when he runs for office that, "Oh, he has outgrown that article". Do not you believe it. Webb does not change much. I know him well. I edited his book, A Sense of Honor. SM (00:07:53): Yeah, I have the book. JW (00:07:54): About West Point. Have you seen it? SM (00:07:55): I have not read it. JW (00:07:56): Did you look at... Do you have the book? SM (00:07:58): Yeah, I have the book. I have read the Fields of Fire, but I have not read it. JW (00:08:00): Have you opened up... Have you opened the book up? SM (00:08:02): No. JW (00:08:02): Have you looked at the frontispiece? SM (00:08:04): Yes. JW (00:08:05): So I am in it. Are you aware of that? SM (00:08:08): No. I guess [inaudible]. JW (00:08:09): All right, here is what you are going to do. By the way, it is 14:30 and we are going to have to come to a hard stop, so I want to make sure we go through your questions. Let us answer them crisply. Then you can come back. SM (00:08:19): Right. JW (00:08:20): What I would like you to do, sir, is, go to a Sense of Honor, open it up, go to the frontispiece and look at the dedication. SM (00:08:31): Okay. JW (00:08:31): And I want you to email me back and tell me what the green bench is. SM (00:08:35): The green bench? JW (00:08:36): Yes, sir. I want you to do that. SM (00:08:39): Okay. JW (00:08:39): You are going to have to work a little bit to find out what the green bench is. SM (00:08:42): All right. I shall do that. You said in the same article that I just mentioned up briefly- JW (00:08:47): Anyway, I edited for Webb. I know the man. SM (00:08:50): Yeah. I tried to interview him before he became senator, but he was busy running for the Senate and then I was never able to interview me. So you said in the same article that the events of one generation shaped the attitudes of the next, and you brought up examples in your book about the results of the harshness on Germany in World War I and how it shaped many of the Germans and their attitudes and due to the reparations and the tough stand that was taken against Germany. How does that apply to Vietnam in terms of the effect that maybe what happened in World War II affected the Boomer generation? JW (00:09:33): Two ways. One is, the intellectual and story level, which happens in every culture because of a war. There were so many of us that went into Vietnam. The generation was roughly 30 million women, 30 million men, roughly. Roughly 60 million in all. When you count, not just technical baby boomers, but also those born a little before because so many youngsters born in (19)44 and (19)43 fought in Vietnam, but you do not count all the baby boomers born late in the (19)50s because they were just nine years old during the Vietnam War. So you use 60 million. Well, that is 30 million women and 30 million guys, and so the children grow up knowing that something happened and they pay attention. They listen and they learn like any youngster does in a family. Regardless of what the parents were doing during that period, it was significant for their parents. That is one way, story and culture, family. But there is something more significant. Everyone who fights in a war, goes through trauma, and now, in the year 2010, we understand what PTSD is. By the way, my own West Point classmate, Jim Peak, who was Secretary of Veterans Affairs, uses this term post-traumatic stress dash normal reaction. Now, he is a doctor, an MD, first MD to be Secretary of Veterans Affairs. My point is, Jim is saying, that is what happens in war. And do not forget, Jim was an infantry platoon leader in combat in Vietnam, then he went to medical school. Then he becomes in many years later, secretary of Veterans Affairs. Post-traumatic stress, normal reaction. My dad had PTSD. By golly, I hope he did. I mean, that would be normal. Normandy, the Battle of the Bulge. SM (00:11:45): Right. JW (00:11:47): He was at Remagen when they found the bridge was still standing. He fought all the way to the liberation of the death camp at Nordhausen. It was a hard fight. He had a little, that small Sherman tank, fighting Panzers. That was a very risky thing to do. I am saying that that effect on those fathers, there were so few women that fought in the Vietnam War or were even in the military at that time, compared to the number of men. For example, there is only eight women on the wall. There is eight nurses. That had to hurt the children. That hurt the children. It hurts the children in every generation. Those are the two effects. Let us march on. SM (00:12:41): I have a couple of other quotes here from these two books. One of the quotes from you is, "I think the challenge that lies before us is not to forget ourselves, set up in some kind of super minority, one more special interest group, but instead, to figure out what it is we have to offer". Now, I say that because today, in our society we have a lot of people who criticize special interest groups, particularly, different minorities. You have heard the whole politics of... The year of special interests and everything. But Vietnam veterans, I know, when I worked at Ohio University in my very first job, a lot of them could not get jobs, and we had Vietnam Veterans affairs officers at Ohio University because of getting jobs and the way some of them were being treated upon their return, they were not going to be hired. So they became part of the affirmative action plan. So I just wanted your thoughts on, you made this statement about being a special interest, but in affirmative action, they became a special interest because they were being discriminated against on their return. Just your thoughts on that. JW (00:13:54): Well, there is two thoughts. One is, there is a sense in which all of us became a nigger for a while. Everyone who came back from Vietnam became for a while, a nigger. That means we became a disenfranchised group. We became someone whose particular story was not... Society did not want to hear our story. And we were stereotyped, as if we knew what stereotype was. I mean, back in the (19)40s when I was born, who used stereotype, man? But we understand what all that means. Or in another sense, we were the (19)50s housewife women sent out for coffee. What I am saying is, we were a disenfranchised group. Our fathers and our forefathers, the Civil War vets, the World War II vets, the Teddy Roosevelt era vets, they were esteemed. We were the opposite. We were disesteemed. We spent a while being niggers. I am using the term to make a point. SM (00:15:15): Yes. JW (00:15:17): But what it did, was give us great empathy. It gave many of us great empathy, actually. We did not know it when we were building a wall, but it became a fulcrum on which our country turned so that our period in that particular silo, in that particular disenfranchised condition ended. We did not know that. We were just kids. That is why that book, Hal Moore's book, We Were Soldiers Once- SM (00:15:49): Great book, with Joe Galloway. JW (00:15:51): But the last part of the title, it is not in the movie title, and young. We were young. The wall would never have been built if we were not so young and we could take a licking and keep on ticking, so to speak, when we were young. But it gives great empathy to the guys who served in Vietnam. There is no anger, and by the way, there is no big sense of entitlement. Bobby Mueller is a minority among Vietnam veterans. Most Vietnam veterans have a great sense of personality and self. They actually know where they were and what they did. That is not all. They know that and they know two other things. They also know who their fathers were and their grandfathers and that they kept faith with them. And that gives you a pretty deep keel. They know something else. It is kind of like the funnies or the cartoons because every once in a while someone pops up and says, "I was in Vietnam", when they were not. Well, why do they do that? I am going to tell you why. Have you read the book, Vanity Fair? That is okay. SM (00:17:15): No, I have not read it. JW (00:17:16): Do you know anyone who's read it? Do you know somebody who has read it? Well, sure you do. Think of the really best English teacher, probably a really good woman at Ohio. Professor at Ohio. SM (00:17:25): Right. JW (00:17:27): Anyway, anyway. There is a line in Vanity Fair, was written by William Makepeace Thackeray, "Bravery never goes out of fashion." SM (00:17:44): The one thing that I think upsets me more than anything else that I have seen in the last, is the imposters. The people who say that they were in Vietnam. It is really interesting, and this is still part of the interview because there was a book that was written about this and there was a professor up at Harvard- JW (00:18:06): Stolen Valor. SM (00:18:07): Yeah-yeah. Stolen Valor. JW (00:18:09): Jug Burkett. SM (00:18:11): Yeah. And there is others that have actually, when it was not popular to be a Vietnam veteran, and then when it becomes popular, then they come out and say that they are one. Many of them made money off it. To me, it is a crime. It is a crime. They will have to face You Know Who, above. JW (00:18:36): Do not get excited about it. It is okay. They are just dogs chasing the bus. It is okay. SM (00:18:42): Remember the professor at Harvard that did it? And I forget his name. The Long Gray Line is a great book. I read that quite a long time ago. I have not read the rewrite. It was probably 15 years ago. 806 people were in your class, and how important were Kennedy's words, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country", as well as, "Pay any price, bear any burden". How did that affect the 806? JW (00:19:20): There are two big effects at West Point. One of them is, ideals expressed by our fathers or by our spiritual fathers, so to speak, like Kennedy. I want to give you one concrete example of a guy for whom that quote meant a great deal, and that is Frank Rybicki, R-Y-B-I-C-K-I. He is in the book, the Long Gray Line. You can look Frank up. He was killed. He was one of the first in our class killed in the Rung Sat Special Zone in 1967. Infantryman. That quote meant specifically, a great deal to him. So he is an example of how that imprinted on some of us. That is not what forms you at West Point. Far more important is the second thing. On July 2nd, 1962, from my West Point class, we all reported in and Uncle Sam issued us to each other. SM (00:20:35): Some of the statistics here, which you well know, you were part of the first class at West Point that took the full impact of the Vietnam War. What I gather, the information I have here, is that 30 of your classmates died in Vietnam. I never got- JW (00:20:50): They did not die. There is this great line in Mash, it is where Hawkeye is talking and someone says, "Oh, sir, they died". And it is Alan Alda. He says, "They did not die. Old people in hospitals die. These men were killed." SM (00:21:09): Very important. That is a magic moment in this interview for me. I have never thought of it in those terms. Do you know how many of your classmates were wounded that survived? Because I do not... I have never seen that statistic. JW (00:21:24): Here is what I can tell you. My West Point class, the class of 1966 was decimated. One in 10 either lost his life or a part of his body. I went through the entire register of my class, and for every Purple Heart, that meant they were either killed or wounded. I did not count all the wounded. I counted those who were wounded in a manner that significantly altered their life. So one in 10, which means... The number is 83 or 87, were killed or lost a part of their body. Which, if you convert that back to the legions and what the effect of those wounds would have been in Roman times, my class was literally decimated. Decimation was levied on allegiance as a form of punishment. My class was not punished, but it was literally decimation. That is what I know about that. SM (00:22:35): You were involved, obviously, in building something. I did not even know this, that you were involved in building a memorial to Southeast Asia at West Point. JW (00:22:46): Yes. SM (00:22:47): And that was one of the main reasons why you were picked to be the leader of raising funds or building the Vietnam Memorial. JW (00:22:54): I was chairman of the board for the Memorial Fund. SM (00:22:58): Could you tell me, we know about the wall, but I do not know anything about what happened at West Point. Could you tell me a little bit more about that? And- JW (00:23:07): It was an idea I had in... It was my idea. It was just on the eve of our 10th reunion, 1976, and I said, "Why do not we build a memorial at West Point for everyone killed?" And the reason I did it is because we were disenfranchised and our country did not know about us. What we would do for our fellows, and their next of kin and widows and kids we had to do for ourselves. With that thought in mind, I went to Wes Clark, Jeff Rogers. This is in the book, the Long Gray Line. SM (00:23:44): Yes. JW (00:23:45): And Matt Harrison, and we met right here in town at Matt Harrison's house just down the street. Wes Clark and Matt and I met, Jeff was up at West Point. We called Jeff. At our reunion, we all together presented the idea to build a memorial at West Point. It would take money, some money, and we would have to get permission to use land. We worked together to get the land from West Point. That was a good drill for getting land and wash it and in order... We were all very young, right? In order to have some money, my solution was to unite the 10 classes of the (19)60s. That is how it got built. SM (00:24:33): It is unbelievable. And then, correct me if I am wrong, but then many members of the class of (19)66 were involved in working on the Vietnam Memorial as well. JW (00:24:43): Yes. SM (00:24:44): And how did you meet Jan Scruggs and I think Bob Dubak and [inaudible]? JW (00:24:47): Again, that is in the long line, the details. SM (00:24:50): Right. JW (00:24:51): So you could look it up there. I met Scruggs because it is actually a chapter that begins in the book The Long Gray Line. But I read an article... So, look it up there. SM (00:25:00): Yes. JW (00:25:01): Save us time here. But I went and I read an article that he raised, whatever it was, 200 and some dollars. The exact sum is actually Rick Atkinson has the exact sum, and people were kind of making fun of him on national television, but we were on the cusp of finishing the memorial at West Point. So this is the summer of 1979, and I made a point to call him up when I got back to Washington. He came over to my home. It was a day like this. It was kind of a hot day, summer day. And I listened to what he said, and I said, "I got a Rolodex. You can do this." I said, "You can do this." And then he paid me a compliment, which is what a soldier can do, and he is a soldier. He said he trusted me and there were all these reasons not to trust me. I went to West Point. That is a good reason. If you have been a trooper in the one 99th, you learn that these officers with good ideas can get you hurt, no matter how good their ideas. It may be brilliant, you can still... Just like Afghanistan. General Petraeus may have a great idea, but someone is going to get hurt. SM (00:26:20): Yeah. JW (00:26:20): I am only half kidding. I am saying that he learns to be wary. He trusted me, even though I went to West Point. He trusted me, even though I was an officer and I have been to these Ivy League schools. That was really... I mean, who would... What sense does that make? So he asked me to be chairman. That is how it happened. The greatest compliment that the field soldier will ever give you is to trust you, period. SM (00:26:58): And it is important because Jan has done a great job [inaudible]. JW (00:27:04): Yes, he did. SM (00:27:05): And under a lot of criticism too, from God knows how many people. JW (00:27:12): They were not there during the fight and it was a fight. SM (00:27:16): Right. Talk about your work with the wall and your beliefs with respect to helping the healing process. One of the questions I have asked everyone from Senator McCarthy when I first started this back in (19)96 part-time, to my full-time work of last a year and a half, is that the students that I worked with at the university, when we used to go on these leadership, on the road trips, we always talked about healing. And we took a group to see Senator Muskie in 1995, 6 months before he died. And the question we asked, the students came up with is that, due to the divisions that were so intense in the Vietnam generation or the boomer generation, the divisions between those who served and those who did not, the divisions between those who supported the troops and did not, the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight. The burnings within the cities, the riots and so forth and certainly what happened in 1968 with the assassinations. Is this generation, the Vietnam generation, going to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? I have a quote I am going to read from this book that you wrote, but what is your thought on the healing process and the role? And the second part of the question is the role that the wall has played, not just for veterans and their families and the people who lost loved ones, but the nation? JW (00:28:51): You got to read the quote first. What did I say? SM (00:28:54): There is a quote in here. Where is it here? It is on page seven and I... Page seven, and it is bottom paragraph. "Bonded by the heritage of World War II in the electronic media and profoundly shaped and divided the freedom rights, the Peace Corps, the women's movement, and the Vietnam War, the 60 million Americans who came of age in the (19)60s are healing their divisions through remembrance and dialogue. This work is vital since we will be the leaders of our national institutions in the year 2000, we are the century generation." So you were talking back when you wrote this book about the healing process, and you were very confident that it was happening. Just your thoughts now in the year 2010. JW (00:29:51): Well, there is three things about that. I always check those pictures. Three things to answer your question. First, it is in the nature of life, like a large tree, to take a wound in the trunk or a whack, but still grow and the bark heals around it and could still be a pretty sturdy tree. So that is natural. That is just natural for a human tribe. The effect of the wall was some healing. It was worth the effort, not just for its main purpose, to remember those who were killed or for the deeper remembrance, which was really for the next of kin, particularly, the mothers. Sometimes I thought, there were a number of years where I thought, we really did it for the moms as I thought about it. But there was also healing. And by striving for healing and using the word and putting the thought into. JW (00:31:03): Using the word and putting the thought into consciousness. It added materially to what might have been the slower process by nature. In particular, it accelerated the process of freeing the Vietnam veteran from disenfranchisement and being almost taboo because we were walking remembrance of things that were taboo. One of the biggest taboos is healthy manhood, that the idea of healthy manhood has 10,000 volts in it. Actually, it always does. That does not change in human culture. Probably will not change for another couple of thousand years. 800,000, I mean, that is in our genes not going to change much. The idea of healthy manhood, it has to do with stolen valor. Of course, it is a badge of healthy manhood to go out as a war fighter. But the third process goes back to CS Lewis. It is grace. I am at a point in life now where I can say not just asserting it, but affirming as CS Lewis did when he was in his (19)50s and near his own death. And that is the wall got built by grace and there has been healing by grace and our country, as do all countries and tribes of humans walks in grace. So think about grace. SM (00:33:01): You are okay. It is okay I got the main one there. Yep. Yeah. I tell you, when I go to that wall, and I am been honored to be at over 30 times on Memorial Day and Veterans Day events now. It just touches me every time I am there and I am not a veteran, and I sit usually after the ceremonies and I just sit there and reflect on, I knew a lot of Vietnam vets. I know two people on the wall, and to me, it is one of the greatest things that is ever been done in my life. JW (00:33:38): Well, it was built by grace. SM (00:33:40): Yeah. JW (00:33:40): It was not built by, I will tell you this. It was not built by a bunch of ragtag soldiers. SM (00:33:45): Yes. JW (00:33:45): I mean, which is the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, our team. Let me tell you something John Warner said, and you can still ask him. God bless him. He actually might even be in the club. We are at the Metropolitan Club, so he could be here right now. He comes here often, and I will tell you what he said. He said, "I know how that wall got built. You were," and he was talking to all of us. We were young men. And then this was decades later, so we were not so young. But he said, "You were in God's hands." He actually did not say that. He said, "You were in God's hand." That is John Warner. "You were in God's hand." Go ask him. SM (00:34:41): That was, I loved him. I know he retired. JW (00:34:45): He said it. SM (00:34:46): That is Unbelievable. The wall that heals is a follow up to that question is Dan, when he wrote the book to Heal a Nation, I think you have already said it, but where does the nation stand with respect to healing from all the divisions in our society? How did, I have not had a chance to even interview Dan. I sent him a letter once and he did not respond, so maybe he does not want to-to be interviewed. But how does he feel, do you think, with respect to the nation part? I know he- JW (00:35:17): Dan has to speak for himself. SM (00:35:19): Yeah. JW (00:35:19): I will say that if you read with Carol, hear all the references to [inaudible] in this book, Touched With Fire in the Long Gray Line, and then the books he has written and go to the website for vvmf.org and read his stuff, you will get a take on his attitude. SM (00:35:38): Right. JW (00:35:38): It is a solid and faithful soldier's attitude. It is all one could ask of the American soldier. SM (00:35:47): Yeah. Well, we brought him to Westchester for our Wall that Heals. I did not mention, we brought the traveling wall and we had over 6,000 people who came and quite a few veterans after midnight. The Women's Memorial, obviously, Diane Carlson Evans has played a very important role. Again, I have gotten to know her too. I interviewed her for the book. But a lot of the movements from the (19)60s, whether it be the Civil Rights Movement, the anti-war movement, women were put in secondary roles, were women thought of when the original Vietnam Memorial was built. Because it is my understanding, Diane had to really battle to get that in the beginnings before Congress to even get them to think about building the Women's Memorial. JW (00:36:34): Right. In the book Touched With Fire, you will find the first part of the answer to that. Several women have written, and you can Google this idea, out of the anti-war movement came the women's movement. The idea of standing up came, as women, came out of the anti-war war movement. SM (00:36:54): Yes. JW (00:36:54): That is 0.1. That is actually grace from Vietnam. There is a sense in which women came to the front of the bus and the war fighters were put in the back of the bus for that to happen in a great and poetic cultural sense, and that is great. That is okay. We are fine. I mean, you take the war fighters and say, "Go back to the back of the bus." We were disenfranchised. They were treating us like, but we were still back there remembering how great it was in Vietnam and what were they going to do. Send us to Vietnam, the bus was still air conditioned. I am just, I am making a joke. But in a sense, we went to the back of the bus while they got to the front. That is what the women were doing. In large. It was a good thing. Second, it was women were absolutely key in getting the Vietnam Veterans Memorial built, and the women will tell you they were not at the back of any bus. We were out there in the slot wrestling with Webb. But the real efficient, practical work was done by the gals. Sandy Forio is one. She could tell you about the other women on the Memorial fund, but she was our lead fundraiser. I mean, the gals were, and do not forget, it was a woman who won the design, all the productive work. SM (00:38:13): Not Linda Goodacre? JW (00:38:15): The women did. No, not Linda Goodacre. The Women's Memorial was Linda Goodacre, but Maya Lynn designed the Vietnam. I am just saying, if you look at it, the guys were out there. We were like pigs and slop doing whatever with inefficient things there. We were just basically keeping the barbarians at base. So the women actually did the productive, effective work of fundraising and designing it. Did anybody notice that the creative and sustaining work? I mean, I am just saying if you unfold the memorial story, by the way, they gave as God as they could. I mean, the people, when Sandy Borio was speaking at meetings about what Webb and Perot was doing, we had to restrain her man. She was all set to go hurt him. So I am just saying, right. If you want women's liberation, I mean, it was happening right there. That is just, it is a good part of the story. Absolutely. However, to his great credit, and everybody should be proud of this, the minute the women came, James Gregg said, "We will help you." And I did too. And then a lot of people wanted to burn us at the stake and beat us over our head and shoulders, but we did not notice any difference because we already were already being burned at the stake and beat around head and shoulders because they did not like the design to begin with. So the fact that we were helping the women with the statue, we could not tell. The pain threshold was beyond noticing the difference. I am just making a soldier's joke, to his credit, James supported it. So did I. SM (00:39:49): What is amazing is that- JW (00:39:50): And we testified you could go hear our, we went and testified together. SM (00:39:56): From knowing Lewis in that timeframe when Bill Clinton came to the wall with the bringing kinfolk to the wall, and all the speakers that have been brought in, the entertainers that had been there. To me, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund and the people that were involved, the wall have been the greatest advocates for healing in this entire nation, because I have witnessed it as a non-veteran who sits there and watches it. And I had conversations with Lewis about it. He was really pushing for Bill Clinton to come because he felt it was important, and he was also the reaching out to Vietnam and helping the warriors in Vietnam. JW (00:40:35): But is there a question here? SM (00:40:37): The question is, to me, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund seems to be one of the leaders in the healing within the nation, period. JW (00:40:46): It is not the fund or the wall. SM (00:40:48): Well, the group in bound in the. JW (00:40:52): It is grace. SM (00:40:54): Okay. JW (00:40:54): That is the better door to go in through, I think, because we are just human beings. But it is grace. From a scientific point of view, that is an anthropological point of view. The wall is a liminal place, L-I-M-I-N-A-L. It is a liminal place. It is a phenomenon that happens in human tribes. It is a way of saying it is a sacred place. I will give you an example. At the dedication. Dan and I were alone after the speeches. We were alone, by the way, president Reagan had not come to the dedication. It was too controversial. He came two years later when we dedicated the statue, but he did not come to the dedication of the wall. We were alone in a sense. So what? We were alone in Vietnam too. Do you know what I mean? We were soldiers and young, so to speak. Anyways, what Dan and I both noticed was even though there were maybe 112,000 or 150,000 people around us, we were walking along the top of the walls. We could look over to our right. It was almost as silent as the room that we were in, with 150,000 people. And Dan turned to me and said, "When we die, there is going to be a heck of a party." My wife saw it on TV. She saw everybody going to the cathedral to read names. John Walker, the Bishop of Washington, gave us permission to do that. It is in the book, The Long Green Line, and my wife was watching that. She is an Episcopal priest. My wife at the time, not my current wife. This is my wife Lisa. There was a divorce because the wounds in the family that went with my daughter's birth defect and my selfish dedication to the wall, I took myself away from my family, ended the marriage. I did not have a family meaning saying, "I am going to do this." I did not give them a vote. That was selfish. But when we were married, she looked at the names being read at the cathedral, and she said, it was just out of the blue. I was not even paying attention because I was so tired. Matter of fact, I was so tired that week I could finally de-stress from a hard three years. And I did not know that I had seven more years of fight to go because Jim Webb and Ross Perot and John McCain were going to spend the next three Congress was trying to sneak through changes of the design. Yes, they did. But the manager here made me a sandwich. The club was closed. But- SM (00:44:34): You can eat it. You can- JW (00:44:35): No-no. I will get it. But I am just saying it was the same thing. He went, himself and personally made it because the whole town was filled with veterans, and I just came here to be alone, just like we are now. God bless him that manager. I lost my train of thought. I was talking about my wife. I was so tired I [inaudible] past three, my wife turned to me and I was almost, I could not go to sleep. You know sometimes you are so tired, you cannot go to sleep. I was just zoned down out, and she was watching the reading of the names, which was very moving. I was grateful for it. And the president went, finally, just, the president grabbed the first lady and they went to the cathedral. I was so grateful to John Walker and God bless him. He died too young. And so what I am saying is that in this mood, just out of the blue, she says "You are going to heaven, Jackie Wheeler." SM (00:45:58): You are going. No, just you are. Because I know personally the effect that it had on Vietnam veterans in my community, two in particular, WHO until we brought the traveling wall, when Dan came, they had never had the courage to even go to Washington. And they told me point blank, they were not going to even walk over. But the day that Dan was there, we had our greatest crowds in the evening because OF classes. But we had the ceremony outside with the president of the university and the mayor, and we had Vietnam veterans and their kids speaking, and Dan spoke. We had country Joe. But over in the corner, along the wall, by the science building. I saw both of them. They were emphatic that they were not ready yet. That is as close as they came. They did not walk up to the wall. But that is another thing. When I left the university, one of them thanked me for the wall. But Dan Scruggs and what you have done is just, to me, the most important thing within the generation, the boomer generation. To me, it is the most important thing that is ever happened within the boomer generation, because you cannot define, in my opinion, the boomer generation without talking about Vietnam. As Paul Critchlow says, it was the watershed moment in everyone's life. But Paul said to me, he said, "I felt I wanted to be part of the most important happening in my lifetime, that watershed moment." That is why he served in Vietnam. And even the anti-war people and all the other things. The war is the center core. So I do not ever have a chance to say thanks to Dan Scruggs and all the people that were involved like you, but to me, in my life, as a non-veteran who deeply cares about Vietnam veterans, it is the most important thing that is ever happened in my life. And I am not even a veteran. JW (00:48:29): Understood. SM (00:48:30): I come to the wall and I bring students to the wall because I know how important it is. And when you see those names, it is just unbelievable. I read books and every time there is a Vietnam veteran whose name is mentioned, who passed away in this book or that book or that book, I go to the wall and look the name up. There must be a couple hundred names that I do not even know who they are except the fact they were in books. JW (00:49:03): Okay. SM (00:49:04): So one of the conversations that I think this book is tremendous, I wish they would reprint this book. In fact, I mentioned to James Thalas when I interviewed him. I said, what would be great is to bring all these people back together again from the, that are in the symposium? And he said, and James Thalas said, "I would be willing to do it." And I know Bobby Mueller real well, and I know actually Phil Caputo, he is out in Arizona right now. But what I am getting at here is I would like your responses to some of their commentaries back in when this was written, this came out in (19)81, and you make a comment. You make a statement to, a quote here that I think is very important because you praise James Thalas, "And there are too many guys in our generation who do not understand how the war shaped them. Unlike Jim Thalas." And I said this to Mr. Thalas when I interviewed him, and you praise him and others that he admitted he was wrong. He admitted that he was a coward to obey the draft the way they did it, and not protest against the, it is not like protesting against a war. It was evading the draft. And he feels guilty about it, and he does not, I do not think he feels guilty now, but he was. JW (00:50:30): It was an article what did do in the class war end. Yeah. But he did. He stood up to it. Right. Manfully. SM (00:50:36): Right. And your thoughts on, did you think that many within the generation did that? Or was he still a rarity? JW (00:50:43): Jim? Jim is exceptional and a rarity. SM (00:50:47): Yeah. Too many did not. JW (00:50:48): Yeah. He is one that the Rhode Scholar people got, sometimes they miss, but they got it right. When he became a Rhode Scholar. He makes that program look good. You know what? You can knock Jim Thalas, just do not knock him around me. SM (00:51:01): No. Yeah. He respects you. I am telling you. And he actually respects Jim Webb too. He mentioned that the, and I have a comment from Jim Webb. JW (00:51:12): Well, that is right. You better respect Jim Webb and you better watch out for his right hook. SM (00:51:18): Right. He mentioned something when we were talking about that, when you look at the Vietnam generation, it is a generation of service. It was a generation that went in the Peace Corps. It was a generation of Vietnam veterans who went to serve their nation. It is a generation that went and volunteers in Service to America. It is a generation. And then he said, "Hold it. Hold it. I think one of the weaknesses of the boomer generation is that they are not a generation of service because they avoided the war." And he brings up the reasons why in his own-own way. So when you talk about the (19)60s generation as the generation of service, yet Jim Webb challenges that idea what do you think of Jim Webb's thoughts? JW (00:52:21): Could you restate the question? Just- SM (00:52:24): The question was- JW (00:52:24): Closer. I mean, just- SM (00:52:26): I think what Senator Webb was saying at the time is that we all look at the (19)60s to the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and the boomer generation that grew up at the World War II as a generation that was really inbound in service. It is one of the characteristics, the qualities, whether it be service by serving in Vietnam, or serving in the Peace Corps, or volunteers in Service to America, or alternative service, or at least for those who were, is objectors doing alternative service for two years in a very hard way. A couple of my friends did in Newfoundland that would have qualify. But he says, "Too many avoided the war through avoiding the draft and what a so and generation has such large numbers avoiding service, and they should have fought in the war." Is what he is really saying. Response on that? JW (00:53:38): First, Jim is right. You still got a wide shot for his right hook. I am just pulling your leg. SM (00:53:45): Yeah. JW (00:53:46): It is a combative statement, but he is right. That is the first thing. Second, he is touching on something fundamental. The people who lost the most from not going into service, as Jim said, were those who have made that choice themselves. Those good things they could have done, people they helped, did not benefit from their service, but they themselves suffered most. That is why I used this quote and why this is called Touched with Fire. SM (00:54:38): Just right there in the front. JW (00:54:43): You do not have to read it. I am just pointing to this quote. You either enter the action of your time or there is a sense in which you have not lived. So the real loss was for those who made that choice. By the way, not all of them made some kind of selfish choice. Many had no choice to make. Many were drafted. That was not choice. And yet they stood too and served with their fellows. A lot of them are on the wall. There were many women who were treated like women in the (19)50s were, they did not have much choice. That is cruel. Our society in ways was cruel to women in the (19)50s. Thank God for Catherine McKinnon and the women who did lead and still lead the women's movement. So we were, many people did not have a choice. We were so fortunate, those of us who could go to West Point or Annapolis to be able to choose. Then there is something deeper, and I will tell you who taught me this, was Elliot Richardson, God bless him. SM (00:55:54): Died of [inaudible]. JW (00:55:55): Yes. It is the, you must read the essay, the Moral Equivalent of War. Google it and read it. SM (00:56:07): He wrote it. JW (00:56:08): No, it is a classic. SM (00:56:10): Okay. JW (00:56:13): It is not Holmes, but I am embarrassed. It is a classic. You read it. SM (00:56:18): Okay. JW (00:56:19): The Moral Equivalent of War, Google it, turn of the century. Elliot pointed me to it because war evokes the deepest signatures of grace actually, and of sacrifice and of those things worth not just dying for, but living for, of any human experience. Maybe even more than birth. Maybe more than birth, because war's death. “You must read the, think about what Elliot was saying, just like I think about it. You figure out what he was saying." He said, "You read that Jack, Elliot Richardson, God bless him," and his name was on, I put his name on the back of the wall. You know there is names on the back of the wall. SM (00:57:10): No, I did not know that. Yeah. JW (00:57:11): Well, you go, if you look in The Long Gray Line, there is a set of names. I thanked everybody that was significant in getting the wall built. I called Jay Carter Brown and said, "I want to do this." But I said, "If I have to ask permission, it will never happen. It will become public." He said, "This is Jay Carter Brown, God bless him." Jay Carter Brown on the telephone, chairman of the Fine Arts Commission, the Commission of Fine Arts. He says, "Oh, I think it is like putting the builders name on a cornerstone of a building, do not you think? Comma Jack?" And I said- SM (00:58:03): Yeah. JW (00:58:04): "Well, sir, yes." And he said, "I think it would be perfectly routine." And I said, I was chairman of the board at the morning front. I said, "Yes, sir." And he said, I was on the phone. And he said, I said, "So there would not be a need for a hearing?" "I would not think so, would you?" And I said, " No, sir," I make things up. I am not making that up. SM (00:58:36): Elliot Richardson, we all know him in history because he resigned because of- JW (00:58:41): That is why I am making the point. Okay. SM (00:58:41): Yeah. JW (00:58:43): Got that, got that. That is you go, you go do that work. How we doing? It is 3:20. SM (00:58:50): I got a few more questions and you can eat your sandwich over here. Bobby Mueller, in that same discussion, talked about how disappointed he was in America, that the leaders had let us down, that he went into service. And I wonder how many people who served at that time thought like Bobby with respect to, upon the return to America, there was a thinking that when you went to Vietnam, that America was always the good guy, but now that America's the bad guy? JW (00:59:32): Bobby was reacting, but we were young. We were all overreacting. That is the way Bobby. That is the way Bobby, God bless him, overreacted. It was a little too much. There was some truth in what he said. A sense of alienation was understandable because we were alienated. I mean like a good marine, since we were alienated, he figured out that he was alienated. But you overreact. It is a little bit much to ask a guy who was 25 years old or 31 years old at the time, to have a sense of growth, maturity and history. Especially when you have had the wounds he had. SM (01:00:18): Right. JW (01:00:18): So he was putting his finger on some real truth. It is just that there was surrounding truth. Bobby sees it, I think, in a larger context now. Was he right? Yes. Was it a little overstated? Maybe. God bless Bobby. SM (01:00:36): Bobby was at my retirement party. I invited him and he came and it was an hour and a half in there. We actually met him a couple times. What is interesting, I will never forget [inaudible] telling him at the extra room at this session that you were in, he said, "Bobby, you have a temper." I do not know if you remember that. He has said, "Bobby, you have a temper." It seems like today that there are efforts by the right and conservatives to divide our nation by making references to the (19)60s and (19)70s for creating all the problems in our society today with respect to the counterculture, the new left, the activists of many movements for creating the following, the drug culture, the divorce rate, the breakup of the family, the irresponsible behavior, the welfare state, dependence on government, dissent mentality, which actually what Mr. Webb talks about in the book. Special interest, controlling ideas in universities where various studies programs are being taken over by the troublemakers of the (19)60s. Phyllis Schley and David Horowitz said, but in the two, talking about that "Universities today are run by the troublemakers of the (19)60s because they run all the studies programs from women's studies to gay." SM (01:02:03): Because they run all the studies, from women's studies to gay and lesbian studies, environmental studies, Native American studies, black studies. Your thoughts on- Actually, the people that made these comments some of them were people like New Gingrich and Governor Huckabee and George Will in some of his writings and others. JW (01:02:28): It is all as American as apple pie. If Ben Franklin and Abigail Adda, I would rather talk with Abigail before I talk to John Adams. I just think I would rather spend the afternoon having a tea with Abigail more than- SM (01:02:45): A couple of biographies done on her recently- JW (01:02:47): Oh, she is pretty good. Abigail is pretty good and John, he could come along. My point is, if the Adams' were here and Ben Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, they had listened to everything you just said. The question you just said. And, they would say "Well, it is working out. What do you think Tom" and Tom said "Well, it is working out. It is working out." Of course, they are all sitting there knowing that Tom has got this thing going with Sally Hemings, but they are not going to mention that. No one is going to, I mean you know. I am just saying they are all human. We are all human. And, they would say "Well, it looks like it is probably the Republics, looks like it is working out. What do you think?" And, they would say "Yeah." Dolly Madison, I would love to talk with Dolly Madison as well as James Madison. I am saying they would look at everything and say "This is Americans apple pie, Chris. Who knew what apple pie was and what America was?" But, I mean, that is how they look at it. Everything you have just said can be transformed by a mathematical formula so that it is the right [inaudible] while they are beating us up from the left and it is all working out. It is all just mud wrestling. And, it goes with the system that was set up. Here is the biggest thing to remember about the very healthy condition that you defined. I see it as healthy, just slinging mud at each other. What the founding people did, some of the guys being well advised by their wives, and I am talking about Dolly and Abigail, just to start with, Betsy Ross too. God bless her making the flag. Molly pitcher, God bless them. Seriously that the whole generation that fought the revolution. The condition of controversy, it is just built into our republic and it tends to work out okay. What they did in order to keep an envelope around everything, like a rocket ship has a steel shell or a metal shell, do not pierce it the oxygen will leak out in the space and we will all die. I mean, we are a big rocket ship actually. As Buckminster Fuller says, we are on a spaceship, it is called Earth. Be careful. Do not leak the oxygen out of our planet. There is some truth in that, but I am trying to make this point. What holds it all together is how they balanced. In our republic, the branches of government, executive has some powers, everybody's got some power. But, here is my point. We assume once we get the idea, do not leave. Do not take your eyes off the blackboard too quick. What we are learning, you got to pay attention to it. They were not balancing each other's virtues. They were balancing their vices. What I mean is pride and ego on one side will be a very effective antidote for pride and ego on the other side. You do not have to worry about the good impulses of one side being balanced by the good impulses of the other side. Actually, good impulses tend to work together. It is the human condition on one side, a little bit of pride, a little bit of ego, a little bit of illicit sex going on. We are shocked. We are all human. I am just saying. I am just trying to exaggerate a little bit to make a point that what they did was balance, not virtues, but balance, weaknesses or vices, so to speak. That is the genius. So, you got- I am going back to your question. Oh my God, they are calling us rascals. Well, we called them rascals. Oh my God. You never ever forget the vitriol. Just to be clear level that Abe Lincoln or Tom Jefferson or FDR. It is just we live in an envelope of life that is short. Even if we are 65 or 85 years old. It is a short envelope. A little more perspective and we could see things the way Abigail and Dolly too. SM (01:07:31): You give a good perspective there because some people may look at this and say, well, what those students were saying about the divisions and the lack of healing in the nation is just continuing with these. We see it in Congress today that no one talks to each other. Everybody has got the right answer and what other people's answers are, they are totally wrong. So, those kinds of things. And, you have a great quote here too. And, I think this is on page six, and I am not going to go over any more quote this the last one, but- JW (01:08:04): Oh, the cruelest thing you do to someone is read their book, Adam. Oh my God. SM (01:08:08): I want you because this is important. I thought of this too, growing up in the (19)50s, our generation. See, you see things- I think that is what the wall does too. You see things in terms of commonality as opposed to things that divide. You think of things that unite and you say it in this paragraph. "Our generation shares the features of common experience, background and power. We grew up in the (19)50s and (19)60s in a country united by electronics, radio, television, and many shared attitudes. For example, we watched John Kennedy's inaugural address. We watched Disneyland. Davy Crockett with S Parker who just passed away last year. We know what Conrad and civil defense drills mean. We danced together. We turned rock and roll into cultural force. Such similarity was unique in history among so many young people at one time." What you are doing there is you are doing something very positive. You are showing- Instead of always talking about the divisions, what are the commonalities that make us want, try to understand each other better through our shared experience. JW (01:09:18): That had not changed. SM (01:09:20): Yeah. JW (01:09:21): How are we doing? I am having trouble, because I know we were budgeted to four, but for various reasons I only got five hours sleep last night trying to hold my family together with what we are dealing with. SM (01:09:36): Wow. How much time do we have here? JW (01:09:37): Well, it is only 3:30. SM (01:09:39): Do you have enough time? JW (01:09:40): Yeah, I have got some more time. If we could do some more questions. SM (01:09:44): These are real [inaudible]- JW (01:09:45): Also, you can come back on the phone. I mean you can adjust this and maybe talk even on the phone tomorrow. I am just having trouble. SM (01:09:55): In your feeling. When did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion? When did it end and what do you feel was the watershed moment of the (19)60s? JW (01:10:06): First, it is talking about the people. That is why I come up with the 60 minute. I say, let us not talk about baby boomers per se because that does not capture the social energy and the social framework. The social framework, and that is the question you are asking. What is the- What are the bookends socially? And then, we can talk about the human beings that were caught in that. That is 60 million, not 76 million. It is 60. SM (01:10:31): The front edge of the so-called generation is more from 46 to 56 basically. JW (01:10:34): No. SM (01:10:34): No? JW (01:10:38): No-no. I am going to be very clear on that correction. You got to go back to (19)43 or (19)42 even because you want to talk about people who were young and malleable and shaped by the events. So, forget 46, it is too late. You got to go- I am 44. I know I am in this group. So, let us first talk about the markers and then talk about the human beings in it. That is why this baby boom thing is... It is stupid. It is not measuring the right elements. It has got the bulk of them right, but it leaves out too many important people. Those born before (19)46. I mean there is- You get my point. SM (01:11:18): Oh yeah. Many people have brought it up to- JW (01:11:21): So, let us first talk- So forget baby boom. Baby boom was a label put on a bunch of human beings that were born [inaudible]. Let us talk about events and then talk about who's framed by them. Let us talk about the valley and then we will talk about the people who live there. The valley is on one side- Well, 64 let us start- When the number of funerals at West Point began to get pretty significant. That would tell you when the war was on us. That will be (19)64. Because, we are talking about either life or death. That does not mean- I am not saying West Point, I am just saying there is an indicator and that is when the funerals began to get numerous. And, how do I know? Because I marched. I was on funeral details. I know. So, it would be (19)64 when awareness of war and the simultaneous coming of age of a pretty united group of people and self-awareness among the group. Because, we were all just in college, (19)64. So then, the era would go on, has to go through (19)75 at least, which would be when the war ended with the helicopter leaving (19)64 to (19)75 would be pretty good. Now, who were the people who were 18 that is newly liberated from home, and newly empowered as young humans at that time? Well, it would be the freshman in college, would not it? So, you want freshmen in college or people in college in (19)64. Not necessarily just in college, many were not in college. But, I am saying take people who were 18 and older in (19)64 or who turned 18 in... You are going to be in college in (19)64 if you were born in (19)43. So, it would be Americans born in (19)43. And, this is how I came up with the 60 million, going up to Americans who would be... In 1975, they would be... You got to be aware in (19)75 you got to be an aware human being. So, if you were born in (19)43, you are going to be an aware human being, 18 or so, come (19)64. But then, you are going from (19)43 up to (19)50, (19)55. You add 20 years, you get 75. So, it would be 57, 43 to 57. But, that arbitrary, and that is how I gets 60 million. You go to that 40, you- and I define it in the book. That is actually defined in your book. I go through the numbers, whatever I say there is the how I got the 60 million. But, my point is (19)46 to people born as late as (19)75. That is bullshit. SM (01:15:20): 64 is- JW (01:15:20): Oh, (19)46- SM (01:15:22): (19)46 to (19)64. JW (01:15:24): Oh, so you were born in (19)64 then in 1974, you were 10 years old. You were not affected by the events of the [inaudible] of the greater world when you are 10. That is an exact example of why that whole construct of looking precisely at a baby boom like a social engineer and saying that has anything to do with cultural interpretation is bullshit. SM (01:15:59): And, you know I [inaudible]- JW (01:16:00): You are not going to say that someone who was 10 years old was really affected by that. Do you get the point on- SM (01:16:04): Yeah, yeah. And, Todd Gitman, the person who was with SDS and actually was the second leader of SDS, was born in (19)42. So, I was the leader of SDS and [inaudible]- JW (01:16:18): All I am saying is the first 10 pages or 20 pages of that book, I answer that question. How are we doing? SM (01:16:30): Okay, just three more. Three more. What was the watershed moment? Was there a watershed moment in this period, when you talk about the period? JW (01:16:35): In what sense, for who? SM (01:16:36): To you, what was the watershed moment of- JW (01:16:39): In what period? SM (01:16:42): I mean in the period we are talking about here, when the (19)60s began and when it ended. Was there such? Was there a watershed- JW (01:16:50): Yeah, it was coming back from Vietnam when I realized. I was in a different culture in a different place and the first thing I realized it was my home. My real home was- At first I thought it was in Vietnam. Well, it was really, and then I thought, well, it is really West Point. And, it was in a way, but that is not really it. My home was those that I fought with and served with. It was those guys issued to me as I was issued to them by Uncle Sam for my environment, in my world on July 2nd, 1962. But, because I had left the military, left the army I was floating alone. I was a stranger in a strange land to use a biblical phrase. And, it was disorienting. My brother had to hold me by the hand and help me figure out how to talk, so to speak. It is not that I was not culturally aware. I mean, I got a good job. I had been to good schools. For me, the watershed was understanding that my country and culture was a ship that had left me and I was not on it. And, people did not want to hear about where I had been or my classmates or know about Tommy Hayes and how he got killed. They did not want to talk about sacrifice and valor and there were three words- There were at least four words that were just heaved out the window. One of them was the idea of healthy manhood, let us throw that out the window. Oh, healthy manhood? No, we are all going to be laid back and have ponytails and that is okay. I am trying, in a poetic sense to say the idea of healthy manhood went out the window. Suddenly the motto of West Point became really old speak. It was okay if it were on [inaudible]. It very disorienting time. One reason when I went to Yale Law School, I was kind of depressed and thank God for the faculty there who fished me out of the water. God bless them. SM (01:19:49): What do you think were the, two more, in your opinion, what was the greatest mistake ever made in Vietnam? And, the thing is that, and I preface this by saying that in my opinion as a person who did not serve, but has read a lot. A lot of presidents deserve some sort of blame for our links to Vietnam from Eisenhower to Kennedy to Nixon Johnson and obviously Ford, we left after Ford, but then he was criticized heavily to leave for us leaving. So, in your opinion, what was the greatest mistake ever made in Vietnam? JW (01:20:34): Well, we now know that topping the Christmas bombing was stupid. By that I mean in the context of fighting a war to win, I want to be very careful. There are people who say that was not a war worth fighting. So, winning did not make sense. It is going-going to be a very productive conversation to explore anything with a person who says we should not have been there and we should not have been trying to win. Okay, and I understand that. Okay, but here is how I am answering the question. I am saying from the point of view of this being a war, which was to be won and for which my class was decimated in combat. From that point of view, the biggest single mistake was stopping the B52 bombing of Hanoi because we now know from general job that they were close to caving. SM (01:21:40): What year was this, the exact year? JW (01:21:42): 73, 74. We knew 72. That is how close we were. They were close to crumbling. We now know that it was a big mistake. It would have made a huge difference on what they settled for in Paris. A huge blunder. Now, wait a minute. Other people at the table will then go bananas and yell and scream and say "No, the mistake was we should not have ever been there." Well, okay, you can have that conversation. That is a different conversation. You could say it was not worth winning. You could say it was immoral. They could say, oh, you baby killer. You know, you can go nuts. And, Abigail and Dolly would say "The tea is not going to do. You got to get some bourbon. Tom" Jim, Mr. [inaudible], Dolly's husband [inaudible]. Jim [inaudible] go get some bourbon. Tea is not going to do for this crowd, they need a drink. Okay. All I am saying is I want to answer your question as a war fighter. And, as someone who is aware that we had sent soldiers to fight and win from a war fighter's point of view, given we were there, given the lives sacrificed, given the war, the fact of war, given the idea that in war there is no substitute for victory, the biggest single blunder was not pushing Hanoi past that point of caving. And, they were ready to do it, Job has said. We were being pounded toward the table and toward making big major compromises and agreements to get out of this thing. We were just being hammered. That was the biggest blunder. And, the prisoners of war who came back said, we heard the bombs. Some of them could have killed some of us. We wish you had not stopped because they were scurrying around, really scared kitty cats at that moment. This is the word from the POW's. I am really tired. I am sorry man. You have one more question and then maybe you could re-look at the stuff I asked you too. We could tag up with maybe another hour on the phone or something. SM (01:24:08): That would be fine. I appreciate this and one last question that is kind of a follow-up. When Ronald Reagan became president, you mentioned our already that it was too controversial to come to the opening of the wall. To me that is inexcusable as President of the United States- JW (01:24:27): But, I am not saying that. I am saying I understood. We were just too hot. SM (01:24:30): But, the thing is when he became president- JW (01:24:33): Because, do not forget, Perot and McCain and Webb were [inaudible] hell at us. And, Webb was close to Reagan. It is okay. SM (01:24:42): Well, President Reagan, when he became president made a comment over and over again. We are back, we are back, we are back. And then, President Bush, who was his vice president later in the late (19)80s, early (19)90s, said the Vietnam syndrome is over. That is just my last question. Could you comment on what do you think Ronald Reagan meant by we are back? The perception was that what happened in the (19)60s and the (19)70s where law and order is back. We are not going to have these student protests anymore. We are going to get the military back to the way- JW (01:25:24): Okay, let me respond to that question. First of all, God bless Nancy Reagan. I will tell you what about Nancy Reagan, as the first lady of California, she went out to meet planes coming back and coming back at the various airports. There were several places in Vietnam and rather in California, where planes would come back. And, because she was at Sacramento, she could go to Travis Air Force base and meet a lot of planes and there would be guys that would land, it would be early morning and it would be a little bit of rain and they would see a woman with a little detail of California state police with her if she was meeting a plane. And, people can make up stories why they do not like Nancy Reagan and they can do that. Just do not do that around me. Yeah, I love her for that. She was there and it is not like there were a crowd of people meeting any of the planes. SM (01:26:37): You knew from publicity. She did it because she cared. JW (01:26:40): She did it because she cared. God bless her. Now, it is not like 800 people could come to Travis Air Force base to meet the planes. I am making a point about Nancy Reagan first. Do not ever forget it. That is important. Second, what President Reagan was saying was, at the dean's level, there are things worth dying for still. And, I want to hand a compliment, and I would ask you, when you write as you do or however you put your work together, there is someone who deserves and has earned a really good compliment for the way President Reagan spoke when he came to the time when we conveyed the memorial to the United States in 1984, the statue was done. We were going to build the women's statue. That is okay. But, we conveyed it to the United States and he came, and he spoke wonderfully, and the person who wrote that speech was terrific, and please write down her name and say so. This is a bouquet of roses for her. And, that is Peggy Noonan. Now, she may not be your- I mean, all I am saying is- SM (01:28:05): I know all about her. I got a couple of reports. JW (01:28:09): I am just saying, it is like Nancy Reagan, you can knock Peggy, do not do it around me. SM (01:28:12): I am not going to. I am not going to. JW (01:28:14): I am just saying. She wrote that speech and she is terrific. SM (01:28:19): And, that is the one Ronald Reagan gave at the- JW (01:28:22): When we conveyed the memorial to the United States- SM (01:28:27): 1984. JW (01:28:28): It was Veterans Day in 1984. SM (01:28:34): Is there any way you get a copy of that speech or? JW (01:28:36): No, you can get it. You will google it or contact Peggy. Call Peggy up and say "God, this guy wants to give you a bouquet of roses. You know that?" SM (01:28:46): She lives in California, I think- JW (01:28:48): I think she lives in Manhattan. Anyway, that is your homework. Do not tell me your problems. Go do your damn work, man. I do my work. You do your work. You want to be a journalist, go P one. You want to go work mean go get your- SM (01:29:00): Well, actually, I am a college administrator [inaudible]. JW (01:29:03): I do not want to hear you telling me your problems. What I want you a college administrator. When did you get into sadism? I am just kidding. Masochism. Here is what I am saying, just you find Peggy. Tell her about that compliment. It is not-not a compliment. It is like she did it. I want to say one last thing about West Point and soldiers. It is true of the military now because it is a volunteer meal, military. It is always been true of West Point and the five service academies. West Point is just one of five. But, because we have a volunteer military, it is actually true of everybody in the US military. We are trusted by our country to defend our country. It is privilege. Citizens pay for us to be able to do that. They pay for us to develop the skills we have and the gratitude goes first from us whom they trust to the citizens. I am saying thank you. It is a trust. It is not the other way around. I mean, many people say humans do not do well at adjusting to war and its effects. That does not mean that writing on the subject and working on it-it is not a good thing. It just means it is hard. The debates we have now in Congress, in the Council on Foreign Relations of which I am a member. On the current issue, for example, the rules of engagement or on the way the defense department is being run the Pentagon. All echo for me now, just another verse. It is like Dante, almost just another big verse and set of couplets out of, I am afraid it is inferno. It is not the Paradiso from 1968 to 2010. Now, we have Robert Gates who is making many of the same mistakes as McNamara. I know that because I was in the building with McNamara and then Clark Clifford, I worked there. The difference is Gates does not have the depth and breadth of character that Robert McNamara had, and that is a big difference. SM (01:31:51): What were the most important influences in your life? I know your dad and your military background, and I interviewed Peter Coyote yesterday, the actor. And, of course he comes from the new left background, totally different from your background, but when I asked him the question, I said "When you look at your life up to this point in 2010, what are the specific events? Can you name three to five personalities, people, events, happenings that made you who you are today?" And, how do you respond to that? JW (01:32:25): Well, it has to be my mom who grew up on a ranch in way West Texas. We are not talking just Laredo and West County. We are talking Asherton, Texas, and she is Irish from that part of the state. My dad is an army brat. My grandfather was cavalry from Texas, and so those are formative. My brother was formative. I mean, he died suddenly three years ago. That is a huge loss. Helping me realize the answer to your question, how important my brother was- JW (01:33:03): ...me realize the answer to your question how important my brother was. Shared memories and a sounding board through life. We were just barely 20 months apart in age. After that, it would be, I would have to say CS Lewis. Increasingly as we age, we realize that people who influence us are not necessarily close friends. They are people whose spirit or presence means a lot. CS Lewis and my uncle John Conley, who received a silver star for conduct in the first low level raid of the B-29 is over Tokyo, March 8 and 9, 1945. They were significant, their memory and what they did, and what they stood for. CS Lewis, because the way he writes and deals with issues of faith works for me, works for my DNA and my background. Although I believe in faith, that I will meet him. I am a little nervous about that because he is a big gruff Irishman, I am not sure how we will get along. He died the same day that... and I actually calculated, the same hour as John Kennedy. SM (01:34:24): November 22, (19)63. JW (01:34:26): Yeah, the same hour, actually, though. It is interesting when you account for the time change between London and Texas. It was just interesting. SM (01:34:33): How old was he when he died? JW (01:34:34): He was 63. SM (01:34:34): Young. JW (01:34:34): He was young. Help me, one other guy died that day. You got to Google it. And they were all Irish, I think that all three were Irish. Anyway, Jack Kennedy and of course Jack Lewis, his nickname was Jack, happened to die that same day. At West Point, the Kennedy assassination was significant. Little did I know that also at that same hour, another Irishman named Jack was taken. And Google and find that other third, there were three significant personalities died that day. That is a good way to answer your question. West Point is significant. It is significant for everybody that goes there in different ways. SM (01:35:16): Yeah. I have actually known people who have gone to West Point. We had a couple of our students that went there, and I do not know, they got in after they finished two years of college, but they wanted to go to West Point, so they got in and they graduated. One of them was the mayor of Westchester, Pennsylvania's son, was a West Point graduate. I know he has served in Iraq. But duty, honor, country was something, even when you... in this book where there were differences of opinion about the war even amongst the veterans of the Vietnam War. There was still, no matter what the differences may have been and the frictions that took place over politics, no one ever lost that. The feeling of, there was a sense that that was something so important. How important has that been in your life? Just those three words. Not only from your service in Vietnam, what you have done since Vietnam, but going into West Point and serving there for four years? JW (01:36:19): They are as important for me as any other man in my West Point class, or for the women now who go. It is important to note that it was in May of 2005 that the 10000th women graduated from the five federal academies. And do not forget that James Webb and I parted company over that issue. The women going to the academy. That was his article November 1979, Washingtonian, "Women cannot fight". He tells people when he runs for office that, oh, he is outgrown that article. Do not you believe it? Webb does not change much, I know him well, I edited his book A Sense of Honor. SM (01:37:09): Yeah. I have the book. JW (01:37:10): About West Point. Have you seen it? SM (01:37:11): I have not read it. JW (01:37:12): Did you look at... do you have the book? SM (01:37:13): I have the book. I have read Fields of Fire, but I have not read the right. JW (01:37:16): Have you opened up, have you opened the book up? SM (01:37:18): No. JW (01:37:18): Have you looked at the frontispiece? SM (01:37:20): Yes. JW (01:37:21): So I am in it. Are you aware of that? SM (01:37:24): No, I... JW (01:37:25): All right, this is what you are going to do. By the way, it is 2:30 and we are going to have to come to a hard stop, so I want to make sure we go through your questions. Let us answer them crisply. Then you can come back. SM (01:37:35): Right-right. JW (01:37:35): What I would like you to do, sir, is go to A Sense of Honor, open it up, go to the frontispiece and look at the dedication. SM (01:37:45): Okay. JW (01:37:46): And I want you to email me back and tell me what the green bench is. SM (01:37:50): The green bench? JW (01:37:51): Yes, sir. I want you to do that. SM (01:37:54): All right. JW (01:37:55): You are going to have to work a little bit to find out what the green bench is. SM (01:37:58): All right I shall do that. You said in the same article that I just mentioned it briefly – JW (01:38:02): Anyway, I edited for Webb, I know the man. SM (01:38:05): Yeah. I tried to interview him before he became Senator, but he was busy running for the Senate and then I was never able to interview him. You said in the same article that the events of one generation shaped the attitudes of the next, and you brought up examples in your book about the results of the harshness on Germany in World War I and how it shaped many of the Germans and their attitudes and due to the reparations and the tough stand that was taken against Germany. How did that apply to Vietnam in terms of the effect that maybe what happened in World War II affected the boomer generation? JW (01:38:47): Two ways. One is the intellectual and story level, which happens in every culture because of a war. There were so many of us that went into Vietnam. The generation was roughly 30 million women, 30 million men roughly. Roughly 60 million in all. When you count, not just technical baby boomers, but also those born a little before because so many youngsters born (19)44 and (19)43 fought in Vietnam. But you do not count all the baby boomers born late in the (19)50s because they were just nine years old during the Vietnam War. So you use 60 million. Well that is 30 million women, 30 million guys, and so the children grow up knowing that something happened and they pay attention, they listen and they learn, like any youngster does in the family. Regardless of what the parents were doing during that period, it was significant for their parents. That is one way, story, culture, family. But there is something more significant. Everyone who fights in a war goes through trauma. And now in the year 2010, we understand what PTSD is. By the way, my own West Point classmate, Jim Peak, who was Secretary of Veterans Affairs, uses this term post-traumatic stress-normal reaction. He is a doctor, an MD, first MD to be Secretary of Veterans Affairs, my point is, Jim is saying that is what happens in war, and do not forget, Jim was an infantry platoon leader in combat in Vietnam. Then he went to medical school. Then he becomes in many years later, secretary of Veterans Affairs. Post-traumatic stress, normal reaction. My dad had PTSD. By golly, I hope he did. I mean, that would be normal. Normandy, the Battle of the Bulge, he was at Remagen when they found the bridge was still standing. He fought all the way to the liberation of the death camp at Nordhausen. It was a hard fight. He would have that small Sherman tank fighting panzers, that was a very risky thing to do. I am saying that that effect on those fathers, there were so few women that fought in the Vietnam War or were even in the military at that time, compared to the number of men. For example, there is only eight women on the wall, there is eight nurses. That had to hurt the children. That hurt the children. It hurts the children in every challenge. Those are the two effects. Let us march on. SM (01:41:54): I have a couple of other quotes here from these two books. One of the quotes from you is "I think the challenge that lies before us is not to forget ourselves, set up in some kind of super minority, one more special interest group, but instead to figure out what it is we have to offer." Now, I say that because today in our society we have a lot of people who criticize special interest groups, particularly different minorities. You have heard the whole politics of the era of special interests and everything, but Vietnam veterans, I know when I worked at Ohio University in my very first job, a lot of them could not get jobs, and we had Vietnam veterans affairs officers at Ohio University. Because of getting jobs and the way some of them were being treated upon their return, they were not going to be hired. So they became part of the affirmative action plan. So I just wanted your thoughts on, you made this statement about being a special interest, but in affirmative action. They became a special interest because they were being discriminated against on their return. Just your thoughts on that. JW (01:43:05): Well, there is two thoughts. One is there is a sense in which all of us became a nigga for a while. Everyone who came back from Vietnam became for a while, a nigga. That means we became a disenfranchised group. We became someone whose particular story was not, society did not want to hear our story. And we were stereotyped as if we knew what stereotype was. I mean, back in the (19)40s when I was born, who used stereotype man, but we understand what all that means. Or in another sense, we were the (19)50s, the housewife woman sent out for coffee. What I am saying is we were a disenfranchised group. Our fathers and our forefathers, the Civil War, that is the World War II vets, the Teddy Roosevelt era vets, they were esteemed. We were the opposite. We were disesteemed. We spent a while being nigga's. I am using the term to make a point. But what it did was give us great empathy. It gave many of us great empathy actually. We did not know it when we were building a wall, but it became a fulcrum on which our country turned so that our period in that particular silo, in that particular disenfranchised condition ended. We did not know that, we were just kids. That is why that book, Helmore's book, We Were Soldiers Once – SM (01:44:57): Ah, great book with Joe Galloway. JW (01:44:59): But the last part of the title, it is not in the movie title that is, "We Were Young. The wall would never have been built if we were not so young and we could take a lick and keep on ticking, so to speak when we were young. But it gives great empathy to the guys who served in Vietnam. There is no anger, and by the way, there is no big sense of entitlement. Bobby Mueller is a minority among Vietnam veterans. Most Vietnam veterans have a great sense of personality himself. They actually know where they were and what they did. That is not all. They know that, and they know two other things. They also know who their fathers were and their grandfathers and that they kept faith with them. And that gives you a pretty deep keel. They know something else. It is kind of like the funnies or the cartoons because every once in a while someone pops up and says, "I was in Vietnam when they were not". Well, why do they do that? I am going to tell you why. Have you read the book Vanity Fair? That is okay. SM (01:46:23): No, I have not read it. JW (01:46:23): Do you know anyone who has read it? Do you know somebody who has read it? What is your- do think of the really best English teacher. Probably a really good woman at Ohio. Professor at Ohio. Anyway, there is a line in Vanity Fair was written by William Makepeace Thackeray, "Bravery never goes out of fashion." SM (01:46:50): Now, the one thing that I think upsets me more than anything else that I have seen in the last, is the imposters. The people who say that they were in Vietnam. It is a really interesting, and this is still part of the interview, because there was a book that was written about this and there was a professor up at Harvard- JW (01:47:12): Sterling Valen. SM (01:47:13): Yeah-yeah. Sterling Valen. JW (01:47:14): [inaudible]. SM (01:47:17): Yeah, and there was others that had actually, when it was not popular to be a Vietnam veteran, and then when it becomes popular then they come out and say that they are one. Many of them made money off it. To me it is a crime. It is a crime. They will have to face you know who above. JW (01:47:42): Do not get excited about it. Okay. SM (01:47:44): And they are- JW (01:47:45): Just dogs chasing the bus. It is okay. SM (01:47:47): Remember the professor at Harvard that did it, and I forget his name, The Long Gray Line is a great book. I read that quite a long time ago. I have not reread it, it was probably 15 years ago. 806 people were in your class and how important were Kennedy's words "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country, as well as pay any price, bear any burden". How did that affect the 806? JW (01:48:25): There are two big effects at West Point. One of them is ideals expressed by our fathers or by our spiritual fathers, so to speak, like Kennedy. I want to give you one concrete example of a guy for whom that quote meant a great deal, and that is Frank Rybicki, RYBICKI. He is in the book, the Long Green Line, you can look Frank up. He was one of the first in our class, killed in the Rung Sat Special Zone in 1967 [inaudible]. That quote meant specifically a great deal to him. So he is in the example of how that imprinted on some of us. That is not what forms you at West Point. Far more important is the second thing. On July 2nd, 1962 from my West Point class, we all reported in and Uncle Sam issued us to each other. SM (01:49:38): Some of the statistics here, which you will know, you were part of the first class of West Point that took the full impact of the Vietnam War. What I gather, the information I have here is that 30 of your classmates died in Vietnam. I never got the- JW (01:49:53): They did not die. There is this great line in mash, it is where haw guy's talk, and someone says, "Oh sir, they died, and it is Alan Alda". He said "They did not die, old people in hospitals die, these men were killed." SM (01:50:12): Very important, that is a magic moment in this interview for me. I never thought of it in those terms. Do you know how many of your classmates were wounded that survived? Because I have never seen that statistic. JW (01:50:26): Here is what I can tell you. My West Point class, the class of 1966 was decimated. One in ten either lost his life or a part of his body. I went through the entire register of my class and for every Purple Heart that meant they were either killed or wounded. I did not count all the wounded, I counted those who were wounded in a manner that significantly altered their life. So one in ten, which means the number is 83 or 87 were killed or lost a part of their body. Which if you convert that back to the legions, and what the effect of those wounds would have been in Roman times, or my class was literally decimated. Decimation was levied on the legions as a form of punishment. My class was not punished, but it was literally decimation. That is what I know about that. SM (01:51:36): You were involved obviously in building something, I did not even know this, that you were involved in building a memorial to Southeast Asia at West Point. JW (01:51:47): Yes. SM (01:51:48): And that was one of the main reasons why you were picked to be the leader of raising funds or building the Vietnam Memorial- JW (01:51:57): I was Chairman of the board for the Memorial Fund. SM (01:51:59): Could you tell me, we know about the wall, but I do not know anything about what happened at West Point. Could you tell me a little bit more about that? JW (01:52:07): It was an idea I had in, it was my idea. It was just on the eve of our 10th reunion, 1976. And I said, "Why do not we build a memorial at West Point for everyone killed?" And the reason I did it is because we were disenfranchised and our country did not know about us. What we would do for our fellows, we and their next of kin and widows and kids we had to do for ourselves. With that thought in mind, I went to West Clark, Jeff Rogers, This is in the book of Long Gray Line, and Matt Harrison. And we met right here in town at Matt Harrison's house just down the street, West Clark. And Matt and I met, Jeff was up at West Point. We called Jeff at our reunion. We all together presented the idea to build a Memorial at West Point. It would take money; some money and we would have to get permission to use land. We worked together to get the land from West Point. That was a good drill for getting land in Washington. We were all very young, and in order to have some money, my solution was to unite the 10 classes of the (19)60s. That is how it kept up. SM (01:53:32): Unbelievable. And then, correct me if I am wrong, but then many members of the class 66 were involved in working on the Vietnam Memorial as well. And how did you meet Jan Scruggs and I think Bob Dubak and those guys? JW (01:53:49): Again, that is in the Long Gray Line, the details. SM (01:53:49): Right. JW (01:53:50): So you could look it up there. I met Scruggs because I, it is actually a chapter that begins in the book Long Gray Line, but I read an article, so look it up there. Yeah, saves time here. But I went and I read an article that he raised, whatever it was, 200 and some dollars. The exact sum is actually Rick [inaudible] that is the exact sum. And people were kind of making fun of him on national television. But we were on the cusp of finishing the Memorial at West Point. And so this is the summer of 1979. And I made a point to call him up when I got back to Washington. He came over to my home, it was a day like this, it was kind of a hot day, summer day. I listened to what he said and I said, "I got a Rolodex. You can do this. So you can do this". And then he paid me a compliment, which is what a soldier can do. And he is a soldier. He said he trusted me. And there were all these reasons not to trust me, went to West Point, that is a good reason, if you have been a trooper in the one 99th, you were that these officers with good ideas can get you hurt no matter how good their idea is. You, it may be brilliant. You can still, just like Afghanistan. General portrays, we have a great idea, but someone is going to get hurt. I am only half kidding. I am saying that he learns to be wary. He trusted me and I went, even when I went to West Point, he trusted me. Even though I was an officer and I had been to these Ivy League schools, that was really, I mean what sense does that make? So he asked me to be chairman. That is how it happened. The greatest compliment, that the field soldier will ever give you, is to trust you, period. SM (01:55:55): And [inaudible], it is important because Jan's done a great job in [inaudible]. And under a lot of criticism too, from God knows how many people. JW (01:56:08): They were not there during the fight and it was a fight. SM (01:56:12): Right. Talk about your work with the wall and your beliefs with respect to helping the healing process. One of the questions I have asked everyone from Senator McCarthy when I first started this back in (19)96 part-time to my full-time work the last year and a half, is that the students that I worked with at the university, when we used to go on these Leadership On The Road trips, we always talked about healing. And we took a group to see Senator Muskie in 1995, 6 months before he died. And the question we asked, the students came up with is, due to the divisions that were so intense in the Vietnam generation or the boomer generation. Divisions between those who served and those who did not. The divisions between those who supported the troops and did not. The divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, the burnings within the cities, the riot and so forth. And certainly what happened in 1968 with the assassination. Is this generation, the Vietnam generation, going to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? I have a quote I am going to read from this book that you wrote, but what is your thought on the healing process and the role? And the second part of the question is the role that the wall has played, not just for veterans and their families and the people who lost loved ones, but the nation. JW (01:57:43): You got to read the quote first, what did I say? SM (01:57:48): There is a quote in here. Where is it? Here? It is on page seven and it is bottom paragraph, " Bonded by the heritage of World War II and the electronic media and profoundly shaped and divided the freedom rights, the Peace Core, the women's movement, and the Vietnam War. The 60 million Americans who came of age in the (19)60s are healing their divisions to remembrance and dialogue. This work is vital, since we will be the leaders of our national institutions in the year 2000, we are the century generation". So you were talking, back when you wrote this book, about the healing process and you were very confident that just your thoughts now in the year 2010. JW (01:58:44): Well, there is three things about that. Three things to answer your question. First, it is in the nature of life, like a large tree to take a wound in the trunk or a whack, but still grow and the bark heels around it, it could still be a pretty sturdy tree. So that is natural. That is just natural for a human drive. The effect of the wall was some healing. It was worth the effort, not just for its main purpose, to remember those who were killed or for the deeper remembrance, which was for the next of kin, particularly the mothers. Sometimes I thought there were a number of years where I thought we really did it for the moms as I thought about it. But there was also healing. And by striving for healing and using the word and putting the thought into consciousness, it added materially to what might have been a slower process by nature. In particular, it accelerated the process of freeing the Vietnam veteran from disenfranchisement and being almost taboo. Because we were a walking remembrance of things that were taboo. One of the biggest taboos is healthy manhood, that the idea of healthy manhood has 10,000 volts in it. Actually, it always does. That does not change in human culture. It probably will not change for another couple of thousand years. 800,000. I mean that is in our genes not going to change much. The idea of healthy manhood, it has to do with Sterling Valen. Of course, it is a badge of healthy manhood to go out as a war fighter. But the third process goes back to CS Lewis. It is grace, I am at a point in life now where I can say not just asserting it, but affirming as CS Lewis did when he was in his (19)50s and near his own death. And that is the wall got built by grace. And there has been healing by grace and our country- SM (02:01:50): Yeah. I tell you, when I go to that wall and I have been honored to be at over 30 on Memorial Day and Veteran's Day offense now, it just touches me every time I am there and I am not a veteran. And I sit usually after the ceremonies and I just sit there and reflect on, I knew a lot of Vietnam vet, I know two people on the wall. And to me it is one of the greatest things that is ever been done in my life. JW (02:02:19): Well, it was built by grace. It was not built by, I tell you this, it was not built by a bunch of rag keg soldiers. I mean, which is the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, our team. Let me tell you something, John Warner said, and you can still ask him, God bless him. He actually might even be in the club, we were at the Metropolitan Club so he could be here right now, he comes here often. And I will tell you what he said. He said, "I know how that wall got built..." and he was talking to all of us. We were young men. And then this was decades later, so we were not so young. But he said, "You were in God's hands". He actually did not say that. He said, "You were in God's hand" as John Warner, "You were in God's hand". Go ask him. SM (02:03:22): I would love to, I know he is retired. JW (02:03:25): He said it. SM (02:03:26): Unbelievable. The wall that heals, as a follow-up to that question is Jan, when he wrote the book To Heal A Nation, I think you have already said it, but where does the nation stand with respect to healing from all the divisions in our society? I have not had a chance to even interview Jan. I sent him a letter once and he did not respond. So maybe he does not want to be interviewed. But how does he feel, do you think, with respect to the nation part? I know he- JW (02:03:56): Jan has to speak for himself. I will say that if you read with care all the references to Jan Scruggs and- JW (02:04:02): Read with Care, all the references to [Jans Drugs] in this book, 'Touched With Fire', 'The Long Gray Line', and in the books he has written. Go to the website for vvmf.org and read his stuff. You will get a take on his attitude. It is a solid and faithful soldiers had to. It is all one could ask of the American soldier. SM (02:04:25): Yeah, well, we brought them to Westchester for our wall that heals. I did not mention we brought the Traveling Wall. We had over 6,000 people who came and quite a few veterans after midnight. The Women's Memorial, obviously Diane Carlson Evans has played a very important role. I have gotten to know her too. I interviewed her for the book. But, a lot of the movements from the (19)60s, whether it be the Civil rights movement, the anti-war movement, women were put in secondary roles. Were women thought of when the original Vietnam Memorial was built? Because it is my understanding, Diane had to really battle to get that in the beginning before Congress to even get them to think about building the Women's Memorial. JW (02:05:11): In the book, 'Touched with Fire', you will find the first part answers that. Several women have written and you can Google this idea. Out of the anti-war movement came the women's movement. The idea of standing up as women came out of the anti-war movement. That is point one. That is actually grace from Vietnam. There is a sense in which women came to the front of the bus and the war fighters were put in the back of the bus for that to happen in a great and poetic cultural sense. That is great. That is okay. We are fine. I mean, you take the war fighters and say, "Go back to the back of the bus." We were disenfranchised. They were treating us like niggas, but we were still back there remembering how great it was in Vietnam and what were they going to do, send us to Vietnam. The bus was still air-conditioned. I am making a joke. But in a sense, we went to the back of the bus while they got to the front. That is what the women were doing. In large it was a good thing. Second, it was, women were absolutely key in getting the Vietnam veteran memorial belt. And the women will tell you they were not in the back of any bus. We were out there in the slop wrestling with Webb. But the real efficient, practical work was done by the gals. Sandy Oriole is one. She could tell you about the other women on the Memorial fund, but she was our lead fundraiser. I mean, the gals were, and do not forget it was a woman who won the design kind. All the productive work. SM (02:06:48): Yeah, Linda Goodacre. JW (02:06:50): The women, no, not Linda Goodacre. SM (02:06:52): Glen. JW (02:06:53): The Women's Memorial was Linda Goodacre, but Maya Lynn designed the Vietnam one. I am just saying if you look at it, the guys were out there. We were like pigs in slops doing whatever with inefficient things there to, we were just basically keeping the barbarians at base so the women actually did the productive, effective work of fundraising and designing it. Did anybody notice that the creative and sustained work? I am just saying this, if you unfold the memorial story, by the way, they gave as God as they go. I mean, the people, when Sandy Foreoll was speaking at meetings about what Webb and Parole was doing, we had to restrain her man, and she was all set to go hurt him. So I am just saying, if you want women's liberation, it was happening right there. It is a good part of the story. Absolutely. However, on to his great credit, and everybody should be proud of this, the minute the women came, [Janus Greg] said, "We will help you." I did too. Then a lot of people wanted to burn us at the stake, beat us over our head and shoulders. But we did not notice any difference because we already were already being burned at the stake and beat around the head and shoulders because they did not like the design to begin with. So the fact that we were helping the women with the statue, we could not tell the pain threshold was beyond noticing the difference. I am just making a Walter's joke. To his credit he supported it. So did I. SM (02:08:21): What is amazing is that... JW (02:08:22): We testified, you could go hear, we went and testified together. SM (02:08:27): From knowing Lewis in that timeframe when Bill Clinton came to the wall with the bringing Kim folk to the wall, and all the speakers that have been brought in, the entertainers that have been there, to me, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund and the people that were involved in the wall have been the greatest advocates for healing in this entire nation. I have witnessed it as a non-veteran who sits there and watches it and I had conversations with Lewis about it. Even again, he was really pushing for Bill Clinton to come because he felt it was important. He was also reaching out to Vietnam and helping the warriors in Vietnam. JW (02:09:06): Is there a question here? SM (02:09:07): The question is, to me, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund seems to be one of the leaders in the healing within the nation, period. JW (02:09:17): It is not the fund or the wall. It is grace. That is the better door to go in, I think. Because we are just human beings, but it is grace. From a scientific point of view, that is an anthropological point of view, the wall is a liminal place. L I M I N A L. It is a liminal place. It is a phenomenon that happens in human tribes. It is a way of saying it is a sacred place. I will give you an example. At the dedication. Jan and I were alone after the speeches. We were alone. By the way, president Reagan did not come to the dedication. It was too controversial. He came two years later when we dedicated the statute, but he did not come to the dedication of the wall. We were alone in a sense. So what? We were alone in Vietnam too. You know what I mean? We were soldiers and young, so to speak. And what Jay and I both noticed was even though there were maybe 112 or 150,000 people around us, we were walking along the top of the wall so we could look over to our right. It was almost as silent as the room that we were in 150,000 people. Then Jan turned to me and said, when we die, there is going to be a heck of a party. My wife saw it on TV. She saw everybody going to the cathedral to read names. John Walker, the Bishop of Washington, gave us permission to do that. It is in the book 'The Long Gray Line'. My wife was in Washington. She is an Episcopal priest. My wife at the time, not my current wife. This is my wife Lisa. There was a divorce because the wounds in the family that went with my daughter's birth defect and my selfish dedication to the wall. I took myself away from my family, ended the marriage. I did not have a family meeting saying, I am going to do this. I did not give them a vote. That was selfish. But when we were married, she looked at the names being read at the cathedral and she said, just was just out of the blue. I was not even paying attention because I was so tired. Matter of fact, I was so tired that week I could finally de-stress from a hard three years. And I did not know that I had seven more years of fight to go because Jim Webb and Ross Perot and John McCain were going to spend the next three congresses trying to sneak through changes of the design. Yes, they did. But the manager here made me a sandwich. The club with clothes. SM (02:12:59): You can eat it. JW (02:13:00): No-no. I will get it. But I am just saying it was the same thing. He went himself and personally made it because the whole town was filled with veterans. And I just came here to be alone, just like we are now. God bless him to that manager. I lost my train of thought. I was talking about my wife. I was so tired. SM (02:13:32): We are good through at four. What time is it now? JW (02:13:40): Yeah, 10 till 10 past three. My wife turned to me and I could not go to sleep. You know when sometimes you are so tired, you cannot go to sleep. I was just zoned out. She was watching the reading of the names, which was very moving. I was grateful for it and the president finally just, the president grabbed the first lady and they went to the cathedral. I was so grateful to John Walker and God bless him. He died too young. So what I am saying is that in this mood, just out of the blue, she says that you are going to heaven, Jackie. SM (02:14:28): You are going. No, just you are. I know personally the effect that it had on Vietnam veterans in my community, two in particular, who until we brought the traveling wall, when Jan came, they had never had the courage to even go to Washington. They told me point-blank, they were not going to even walk over. But the day that Jan was there, we had our greatest crowds in the evening because of classes. But we had the ceremony outside with the president of the university and the mayor and we had Vietnam veterans and their kids speaking and Jan spoke. We had country Joe. But over in the corner along the wall by the science building, I saw both of them. They were emphatic that they were not ready yet. That is as close as they came. They did not walk up to the wall but, that is another thing. `When I left the university, one of them thanked me for the wall. Jan Scruggs and what you have done is just, to me, the most important thing within the boomer generation. To me, it is the most important thing that is ever happened within the boomer generation. You cannot define, in my opinion, the boomer generation without talking about Vietnam. As Paul [Creshlow] says, it was the watershed moment in everyone's life. So Paul said to me, he said, I felt I wanted to be part of the most important happening in my lifetime, that watershed moment. That is why he served in Vietnam. Even the anti-war people and all the other things. The war is the center court. So I do not ever have a chance to say thanks to Jan Scruggs and all the people that were involved like you. But to me, in my life as a non-veteran who deeply cares about Vietnam veterans, it is the most important thing that ever happened in my life. I am not even a veteran. I come to the wall and I bring students to the wall because I know how important it is. When you see those names, it is just unbelievable. I read books and every time there is a Vietnam veteran whose name is mentioned, who passed away in this book or that book or that book, I go to the wall and look the name up. There must be a couple hundred names that I do not even know who they are except the fact they were in books. One of the conversations that I think this book is tremendous, I wish they would reprint this book. In fact, I mentioned to James Fallows when I interviewed him, I said, what would be greatest to bring all these people back together again that are in the symposium? And he said, and James Fallows said, I would be willing to do it. I know Bobby Mueller real well and I know actually Phil Caputo, he is out in Arizona right now. What I am getting at here is I would like your responses to some of their commentaries back when this was written, this came out in (19)81. You make a comment, you make a statement to a quote here that I think is very important because you praised James Fallows. There are too many guys in our generation who do not understand how the war shaped them. Unlike Jim Fallows, and I said this to Mr. Fallows when I interviewed him, and you praise him and others that he admitted he was wrong. He admitted that he was a coward to evade the draft the way they did it, and not protest against them. It is not like protesting against the war. It was evading the draft. He feels guilty about it and he does not. I am not saying he feels guilty now, but he was [inaudible] JW (02:18:46): There was an article, what did you do in the [class war draft]? But he did. He stood up to it right manfully. SM (02:18:53): Your thoughts on that? Did you think that many within the generation did that or was he still a rarity? JW (02:18:58): Jim? Jim is exceptional and a rarity. SM (02:19:02): Too many did not. JW (02:19:03): He is one that the Rhode Scholar people got, sometimes they miss before they got it right when he became a Rhode Scholar. He makes that program look good. You know what, you can knock Jim Fallows. Just do not knock him around me. SM (02:19:19): He respects you. I am telling you and he actually respects Jim Webb too. He mentioned that and, I have a comment from Jim Webb. JW (02:19:26): Well, that is right. You better respect Jim Webb and you better watch out for his right hook. SM (02:19:32): He mentioned something when we were talking about that this, when you look at the Vietnam generation, it is a generation of service. It was a generation that went into the Peace Corps. It was a generation of Vietnam veterans who went to serve the nation. It is a generation that went in volunteers in service to America. It is a generation and then he said, hold it. Hold it. I think one of the weaknesses of the boomer generation is that they are not a generation of service because they avoided the war. He brings up the reasons why in his own-own way. So when you talk about the (19)60s generation as a generation of service, yet Jim Webb challenges that idea. What do you think of Jim Webb's thoughts? JW (02:20:33): Could you restate the question? SM (02:20:37): I think what Senator Webb was saying at the time is that we all look at the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and the gen and boomer generation that grew up after World War II as a generation that was really involved in service. It is one of the characteristics, the qualities, whether it be service by serving in Vietnam or serving in the Peace Corps, or volunteers in service to America or alternative service. Or at least for those who were consciousness objectors, doing alternative service for two years in a very hard way like a couple of my friends did in Newfoundland that would have qualified. But he says, too many avoided the war through avoiding the draft. So the generation has such large numbers avoiding service and they should have fought in the war. Cause what he is really saying. Thoughts on that? JW (02:21:46): First, Jim is right. He has still got one shot for his right hook. It is a combative statement, but he is right. That is the first thing. Second, he is touching on something fundamental. People who have lost the most from not going into service, as Jim said, were those who have made that choice themselves. Those good things they could have done, the people they helped did not benefit from their service, but they themselves suffered most. That is why I use this quote and why this is called 'Touched with Fire.' SM (02:22:44): Pull it right there in the front. SM (02:22:45): Yes. JW (02:22:48): You do not have to read it. I am just pointing to this quote. You either enter the action of your time or there is a sense of which you have not lived. So the real loss was for those who made that choice. By the way, not all of them made some kind of selfish choice. Many had no choice to me, many were drafted. That was not choice and yet they stood too and served with their fellows, a lot of them are on the wall. There were many women who were treated like women in the (19)50s where they did not have much choice. That is cruel. Our society in ways was cruel to women in the (19)50s. Thank God for Catherine McKinnon and the women who did lead and still lead the women's movement. Many people did not have a choice. We were so fortunate, those of us who could go to West Point or Annapolis to be able to choose. Then there is something deeper, and I will tell you who taught me this, it was Elliot Richardson, God bless him. SM (02:23:57): Died about a year ago. JW (02:23:59): Yes. You must read the essay, the Moral Equivalent of War. Google it and read it. SM (02:24:10): He wrote it? JW (02:24:10): No, it is a classic. It is not a Holmes but embarrassed. It is a classic. You read it, the Moral Equivalent of War. Google it, it turned the century. Elliot pointed me to it because war evokes the deepest signatures of grace actually, and of sacrifice and of those things we are not just dying for, but living for of any human experience. Maybe even more than birth, maybe more than birth, because war's death. You must read it. Think about what Elliot was saying, just like I think about it. You will figure out what he was saying, he was saying you read that chapter. I put his name on the back of the wall. You know there is names on the back of the wall. SM (02:25:09): No, I did not know that. JW (02:25:14): Well, if you look in 'The Long Gray Line', there is a set of names. I thanked everybody that was significant in getting the wall bill. I called Jake carter Brown and said, I want to do this. But I said, if I have to ask permission, it will never happen. It will become complex. He said, this is Jake Carter of Brown, God bless you, Jake Carter of Brown on the telephone, chairman of the Fine Arts Commission, the Commission of Fine Arts. He says, "Oh I think it is like putting the builders in one of the cornerstones of the building? Do not you think, Jack?" And I said, "Well, sir, yes." And he said, " I think it would be perfectly routine." I was chairman of the board at that point. I said, "Yes, sir." I was on the phone and I said, "So there would not be a need for a hearing." "I would not think so, would you?" And I said, "No, sir." I make things up. I am not making that up. SM (02:26:32): Elliott Richardson, we all know him in history because he was resigned cause of... JW (02:26:36): Got that, got that. You go, you go do that work. How are we doing? It is 3:20. SM (02:26:36): I got a few more questions and you can eat your sandwich while we are here. Bobby Mueller, in that same discussion, talked about how disappointed he was in America, that the leaders had let us down, that he went into service. I wonder how many people who served at that time felt like Bobby with respect to, upon the return to America. There was a thinking that when you went to Vietnam, that America was always the good guy, but now that America's the bad guy. JW (02:27:26): Bobby was overreacting, but we were young. We were all overreacting. That is the way Bobby, God bless him, overreacted. It was a little too much. There was some truth in what he said. A sense of alienation was understandable because we were alienated. I mean like a good marine, since we were alienated, he figured out that he was alienated. But you overreact. It is a little bit much to ask a guy who was 25 years old or 31 years old at the time, to have a sense of growth, maturity and history. Especially when you have had the wounds he had. So he was putting his finger on some real truth. It is just that there was surrounding truth. Bobby. Bobby sees it, I think, in a larger context now. Was he right? Yes. Was it a little overstated? Maybe. SM (02:28:26): Yeah. JW (02:28:26): God bless Bobby. SM (02:28:27): Bobby was at my retirement party. I invited him and he came and it was an honor to have him there. We actually met him a couple times. What is interesting, I will never forget Phil Pipudo telling him at this session that you were at, he says, Bobby, you have a temper. If you remember that. He said, Bobby, you have a temper. It seems like today that there are efforts by the right conservatives to divide our nation by making references to the (19)60s and (19)70s for creating all the problems in our society today. With respect to the counterculture, the new left, the activists of many movements for creating the following, the drug culture, the divorce rate, the breakup of the family, the irresponsible behavior, the welfare state dependence on government of dissent mentality, which actually what Mr. Webb talks about in the book. Special interests, controlling ideas, and universities where various studies programs are being taken over by the troublemakers of the (19)60s. Phyllis Schley and David Horowitz said, but then the two talking about that universities today are run by the troublemakers of the (19)60s because they run all the studies programs from women's studies to gay lesbian studies, environmental studies, Native American studies, Black studies. Your thoughts on actually the people that made these comments, some of them were like, people like New Gingrich and Governor Huckabee and George Will and some of his writings and others. JW (02:30:14): It is all as American as Apple pie. If Ben Franklin and Abigail Adam, I would rather talk with Abigail before I talk with John. John Adams. I just think I would rather spend the afternoon having tea with the Abigail more than that. SM (02:30:31): Couple biographies out on her recently too. JW (02:30:33): She is pretty good. Yeah. Abigail was pretty good. And John, he could come along. My point is, if the Adams' were here and Ben Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, they had listened to everything you just said. The question you just said, and they said, well, it is working out. What do you think Tom? And Tom said, well, it is working out. It is working out. Of course, they are all sitting there knowing that Tom has got this thing going with Sally Hemings. But they are not going to mention that. I mean, I am just saying they are all human. We are all human. And they would say, well, it looks like it is working with the Republic. It looks like it is working out. What do you think? And they would say, yeah, Dolly Madison, I would love to talk with Dolly Madison as well as James Madison. I am saying they would look at everything and say, this is Americans apple pie. Chris, who knew what apple pie was and what America was? But I mean, that is how they look at it. Everything you have just said can be transformed by a mathematical formula so that it is the right sand. Well, they are beating us up from the left, and it is all working out. It is all just motor wrestling. And it goes with the system that was set up. Here is the biggest thing to remember about the very healthy condition that you defined. I see it as healthy. They just slinging and mud at each other. What the founding people did, some of the guys being well advised by their wives, and I am talking about Dolly and Abigail, just to start with. Betsy Ross, too, God bless her making the flag. Molly Pitcher, God bless them. Seriously, the whole generation that fought the revolution, the condition of controversy is just built into our republic, and it tends to work out okay. What they did in order to keep an envelope around everything, like a rocket ship has a steel shell or a metal shell, do not pierce that. The oxygen will leak out in the space and we will all die. I mean, we are a big rocket ship actually, as Buckminster Fuller says, we all are on a spaceship. It is called Earth. Be careful. Do not leak the oxygen out of our planet. There is some truth in that, but I... (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Wheeler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wheeler, John, 1944-2010 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Lawyers; Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund; Wheeler, John, 1944-2010--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;John Wheeler (1944-2010) was an Army officer, consultant, lawyer, chairman of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, senior planner for Amtrak, and CEO of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. He also was a member of the Council of Foreign Relations, a special assistant to the Secretary of the Air Force, as well as serving as a presidential aide to the Ronald Reagan, George H.W. and George W. Bush administrations. Wheeler was a graduate from West Point, Harvard, and Yale.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">John Wheeler (1944-2010) was an Army officer, consultant, lawyer, chairman of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, senior planner for Amtrak, and CEO of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. He also was a member of the Council of Foreign Relations, a special assistant to the Secretary of the Air Force, as well as serving as a presidential aide to the Ronald Reagan, George H.W. and George W. Bush administrations. Wheeler was a graduate from West Point, Harvard, and Yale.</span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource in copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.122a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.122b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 153:04 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/51852f7856db4bdc6c834d347165bed6.jpg 3c74f4cd9a389dcc17dc01be8f7dd465 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/44ab1081e03e1b7dc68cd5d38b0c12ef.mp3 4a0c11bf70d47b3cd830d51069ef77a5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1996-11-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joseph Lee Galloway Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Joseph Lee Gallaway is a veteran war correspondent and an author. In his writing, Galloway covered conflicts all across the world, including the Vietnam War, the first Persian Gulf War, and the Iraq War. He is the co-author of the Vietnam War book We Were Soldiers Once... and Young, which was later adapted into a movie, We Were Soldiers.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Joseph Lee Gallaway is a veteran war correspondent and author. In his writing, Galloway covered conflicts all across the world, including the Vietnam War, the first Persian Gulf War, and the Iraq War. He is the co-author of the Vietnam War book <em>We Were Soldiers Once... and Young</em>, which was later adapted into a movie, <em>We Were Soldiers</em>.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam Veterans; Free love; Campus Demonstration; Vietnam War; Non-political entity; Veteran Memorial; Baby boom generation; Army; This Noble Land: My Vision for America; James A. Michener; Soviet Empire; Lyndon B. Johnson; George McGovern; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Vietnam Veterans; Free love; Campus Demonstration; Vietnam War; Non-political entity; Veteran Memorial; Baby boom generation; Army; This Noble Land: My Vision for America; James A. Michener; Soviet Empire; Lyndon B. Johnson; George McGovern; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 107:13 Subject LCSH War correspondents; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 -- Journalists; Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988 -- Journalists; Iraq War, 2003-2011 -- Journalists; Authors; Gallaway, Joseph Lee--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Joseph Lee Galloway Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 18 November 1996 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:05 JG: There is home. But in this case, and maybe in every case, that was wrong, that it was not, Dan Garcia, who, whoever left home. He was at home with professionalism, he was at home with his courage. He was at home with those he served with. And maybe, just maybe it is we, who did not go, who did not serve, for whatever reason, who have been away from home all these years. And so, I say, not a welcome home to Dan, but a welcome to the rest of us. That is very powerful stuff. 00:44 SM: Wow. That is. 00:44 JG: And I have showed that to a number of Vietnam veterans, and every one of them just left with tears in their eyes, at how right he got it. And I am sure in my heart that-that-that Peter Goldmark was probably a campus protestor, march against the war. And I wrote him and told him, that I that I really would love to see him, expand on that those remarks and give them to a broader audience. Because where we are now is, is we need reconciliation, this country, the war, rip-rip, ripped the country apart. And either we find some way to forgive each other and forgive ourselves or the world just keep killing us like those old Cambodian mines keep children that were not even born when the war ended. 01:47 SM: See that is the premise of why I am trying to do this project. There were a couple of things that that prompted me to even try to do this. I have worked at universities now for over 18 years. But in the last five years, when we do programs both on and off campus, I have taken students to meet leaders and I got involved with Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Philadelphia. We did a program at my former school at Jefferson where Don Bailey, the former Auditor General, who was a Purple Heart recipient in the Vietnam War refused to sit down with the Vietnam veterans responsible for the wall in Philly. We did a program at my former school at Jefferson where Don Bailey, the former Auditor General, who was a Purple Heart recipient in the Vietnam War refused to sit down with the Vietnam veterans responsible for the wall in Philly. And they, you may remember, uh, many years back when they tried to put the wall together in Philadelphia, that, uh, some of the top Vietnam veterans went to Washington, took the names off the wall, and walked the entire distance back to Philadelphia, and then buried the names right at the, at the ceremony when they opened several years. And Bailey would not shake hands with those veterans. And I thought that kind of- That was my first inkling that despite all the fantastic things with the wall, the healing and so forth, that maybe there is still a lot of healing that has to be done, not only within the Vietnam veteran community, but within the nation as a whole. And then a couple other instances have led up to this desire to try to interview people for their perceptions on questions that I am asking everyone. And then of course, there is spontaneity going in different directions, because my basic purpose here is to- It is a very complex issue, the Vietnam War and the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and the Boomer generation, their impact on America. But I guess I am frustrated because I see tremendous attacks being leveled against the Boomers right now, which is my generation. And first question I wanted to ask you is, when you look at all the current criticisms of the Boomer generation, which is those people born between 1946 and (19)64, but mostly those Boomers who were in college or of college age during the Vietnam War. A lot of criticism's being leveled against them as to the breakdown of American society, the drug scene started then, the divorce rate is on the rise, being the free love and effects and all that other stuff happened at that time. No respect for authority, because on college campuses during the war, there was protests, and they did not respect administrators or anybody in position of authority. Of course, they were lied to by their government. But what are your thoughts on the criticisms today leveling against the entire Boomer generation and the decay of our society going right back to those times? 04:31 JG: Well, the first thing I have to say is that I am not a Boomer. I was born in (19)41, before the war started. I am a prewar model by three weeks. But what that means is that I did not, I did not meet my father until I was four years old, four and a half, when he came back from-from the army. I guess everybody's thoughts about the boomer generation are-are shaped, to a large extent by what you have read and what you have seen of the (19)60s and the (19)70s. My thing is that-that during the (19)60s and the (19)70s, I was out of this country. I went, I have essentially left this country in 1964, and did not come back until 1980. I was a war correspondent in Vietnam, I was a foreign correspondent. I served Tokyo, Vietnam, Tokyo, Indonesia, India, Singapore, and then finished up with three years as the bureau chief in Moscow for UPI. So, I cannot tell you that I ever saw campus demonstration in this country, or that I ever saw confrontations with the police, except as I read them, newspapers and in the magazines, and saw the stories on the wire. So, I guess my view is, is a little removed. And maybe a little less passionate as to what went on. The boomers, I think, had no patent on the changes that took place in this country. They were a catalyst. Sometimes for good sometimes for bad. I am not sure that you can saddle them with responsibility for everything. But they are responsible for enough to make it interesting. 06:59 SM: What were your thoughts? As a person who served in Vietnam, when maybe you were not here in America, but you were-were over there. And you heard about, you heard about the protests, things that were happening on the college campuses, probably, I would say started around (19)65 and until about 1972. What were your thoughts as a person who was over there serving, and then the thoughts of your contemporaries and how you may be changed over the years and your perceptions of- 07:32 JG: The thing is that I always looked as to motive. Personally, after the first six weeks that I was in Vietnam, I found myself rather opposed to this war. I thought it was being fought very stupidly. I thought that we had bitten off a rather larger chunk than this country would ever be able to chew. It did not take long. I mean, I arrived there, sort of all I knew about war was what I had learned in John Wayne movies, and I think on the third day in country, I found myself on a helicopter landing on a hill where a Vietnamese ranger battalion had been overrun and every man killed, and we were there to find and collect the body of the American advisors. And so, you know, I helped carry that man to that helicopter. And I thought to myself, right then and there, this is, this is not, this is not quite what I thought it was going to be. 08:47 SM: Then this is (19)64? 08:48 JG: This is 1965, March-March of (19)65. I landed there, right after the first battalion of US Marines came ashore at Da Nang. And this was immediately thereafter. And you know, and in the process of doing that story, I immediately ran into some IVS volunteers who worked that province. And I said, “I bet you are glad to see Americans here.” And the guy looked at me like I was crazy. He said, “No, this is complicating my life, no end and making it much more dangerous. Before I could drive the roads of this province, rather freely, taking care of people who were starving or needed medical help or whatever. And now I cannot because all Americans have become priority targets”. And so, you know, literally the first week I began finding out stuff that made me question whether this was-was a very wise course we had undertaken to walk. Now as for these people back here, who really, the demonstrations did not get started until late (19)65. I think it was, oh, the old beat poet. Ginsberg had a demonstration in San Francisco in November of 1965. And I think that was one of the very earliest ones. And I, when I was doing research on our book, I-I went back and looked at that, and I found Senator Everett Dirksen, denouncing these people, as communists and traders and suggesting that they all be shot. So, you know, it was a real startling sort of a development at that time. I cannot say that I knew at that time that it happened to me, but I do not think it crossed my, my radar scope. By the time there was a movement, and there was a major confrontation going on. I am afraid that although I oppose the war myself, I could find not a lot to say for these people who also opposed it because I questioned their motives. I thought it was, shall we say enlightened self-interest. It was a protest against the draft far more than it was against the war. And I thought it was very elitist. I thought, you know, I knew who was fighting alongside me in Vietnam, I knew very-very well, because in the first major battle of the war, in the Drang Valley, I met a kid from my high school class that I graduated with in Refugio, Texas. And that was a graduating class of (19)55 kids. And his name was Vincent Cantu. And in that valley, for a dozen more guys, Hispanics, all of them from South Texas, within 20, 30 miles of my hometown, so I knew who was fighting this war. And I knew who was not fighting this war. And so, I had some trouble with their motives. 12:32 SM: Let me check this to make- 12:37 JG: Something to drink? 12:37 SM: I am fine. I got my Coke here. I stopped at McDonald’s. Talking about the motives now kind of moving up to 1996 as opposed to 1965. The Vietnam memorial was built as a nonpolitical entity. I really admire Jan Scruggs, and all the people involved in that whole process making that happen. I know all about the obstacles that he faced with getting that particular part of a portion of land and so forth, but it is a nonpolitical entity. Yet, when I go to the wall, and I have tried to go the last four Memorial Days, I have been there the last form or days and this is my third veterans day in a row to try to get an ambience and a feel for what transpires there, I sense that there is, there definitely is a lot of healing. But I still get the sense that we have a long way to go. And when I say a long way to go, not only amongst the veterans, but the non-veterans, the people who come to that wall, yours truly the Steve McKiernan's, who was in college at that time did not serve. I was a severe asthmatic, and I got out of the service that way. But it was not I was getting out of the service. I just could not serve. I had a very severe asthma. But the division seemed to still be there. And the question I was trying to raise is-is how much healing has really taken place amongst the veteran’s number one? And will they ever forgive those who were on the other side? The those who oppose the war. And the second question is, do you think there is merit in trying to take the next step beyond the wall, which was to heal the Vietnam veterans to try to heal the generation, the whole generation which the divisions still seem to happen? I just liked your thoughts on both of those questions. 14:28 JG: Well, to start, to start at the top of the wall, and the end, the whole sort of homecoming exercise of the last 12 or 15 years has been for the veterans, a very positive, very healing experience. I-I find it very hard to explain to someone who does not carry the same baggage, exactly what it means. The best way, I guess is to tell you that I have never been so privileged and honored as, as this past Veteran’s Day. When I got to hold up, lift up a young boy, four and a half years old Thomas Alexander Rudell, so that for the first time, he could touch the name of his grandfather, my friend, Captain Tom Metzger, who was killed in action,14, November 1965. And over my shoulder, I can see Tom's daughter, I could see both pride and pain their eyes. And so, to me, this is, man this is this is more than any church I have ever been in. It has more power to it. It is without question, the most powerful and healing piece of art that I know of, on the face of this earth. And it is so for most of those who went to Vietnam, it was a place that that for us is- I have seen too much magic there either. There is no other word for it. If you go talk to the volunteers who work at that wall and ask them for their stories. They will tell someone come up and say, “I am looking for someone who knew my father.” And they will say, “Go stand at his panel, and just stay there a while, and something will happen.” And it always does. There is there is a potency to that experience. That is, it is almost overwhelming. But that is healing for those who were directly wounded. If you are going to look for healing for those who did not go for whatever reason, I am not sure that is not the place. They are not going to find healing there for themselves. I do not know what we do about them. What we do about-about reconciliation. This is something that has got to be worked on. And we need to work on it. 17:35 SM: That reconciliation. Talking about almost like Lewis [Burwell] Puller [Jr.] was talking about before he killed himself back in (19)94, when he reached out, when the invitation to Bill Clinton to come to the Vietnam Memorial that year. And then Lewis wanted to sit and right beside him as he was speaking, remember that? I watched it. And I got to know Lewis briefly before he killed himself because I took students to the wall, and he spent three hours with our students there. And then the following spring, killed himself. Our students were quite shocked. But it was, it is the business of healing. That wall is for Vietnam veterans to heal, and their families and those who served because that is what is for, it to pay tribute to them, the people who served this country and gave the ultimate price because they were not welcomed home. But the next step is I would like your commentary in terms of when the invitation was given by Jan, and Lewis was supportive of it, to bring Bill Clinton there. That is, that is to me is tremendous reconciliation, bringing the other side. And it is almost like, I know how veterans feel toward McNamara the most a lot of them hate him because of some of the things he did. But would not the ultimate reconciliation be having him at the wall? Or having your strongest opponents Tom Hayden at the wall? Or trying to say those were very difficult times. We need to heal as a nation and shake hands, forgive. And it is hard to forget sometimes some of the things that went on, especially Jane Fonda going to Hanoi. Now, that is hard to forgive, but- 19:24 JG: Well, I have a-a lot bigger problem forgiving McNamara. He is the guy who knew, and he lied. And he, he lost heart in the war very early on probably as a result of the battle that I fought in. The battle that I wrote about. I think by November 1965, he knew it was a lost cause. And he did not have the balls to stand up, say it. He did not have the balls to give the right advice to his boss, President Johnson. He just silenced himself. He walled off his arm on judgment and was a good soldier for too long, terrible more years. And he did not address any of that in his book that he wrote last year. That-that is a that is a quibbler’s book. It is a book that tries to point blame at everybody but himself. I got no forgiveness for a guy like that. He dies, he goes to hell, ninth level. And Lyndon Johnson is waiting for him. And Boy is he pissed- 20:35 SM: That is amazing he was- 20:40 JG: Clinton-Clinton is the national command authority. He is the chief executive; he is the Commander in Chief of the armed services. On that day that you talk about, when Clinton came to the wall, that morning at Arlington National Cemetery, I was the master of ceremonies at-at Memorial Day services, and I looked at this crowd, I had about 30 minutes with him before he got there. And I saw some who were thinking about making a noise. And I said, ‘Do not do it.” I said, “Whatever else you may think of him, you respect the office, but more important than that, you respect my friends and your friends who rest here”. And I talked about Tom Metzger whose grave is not far from the amphitheater. And I talked about his daughter. And I talked about some other people who are buried there that I said, “Do not you by your actions here today, do not you dare dishonor them.” And they were pretty good. They behaved themselves. And if they would not have, I would have kicked their butts. And I think they knew that too. But I the President of the United States is a different case. I think you have to suspend judgment because of the office, whether you like the guy who is in it or not. And I do not know what Bill Clinton did. I do not think anybody knows what Bill Clinton did except Bill Clinton. If you want to forgive, you ought to confess, I believe that is the way the Catholics deal with it. 22:35 SM: I think when he came there, I wrote an article for The Philadelphia Inquirer. They did not print it. But it was printed it on our campus. And it was basically saying that the wall was the was the step toward healing from the Vietnam War, but I felt I called the visit like the next step. There may have been a lot of veterans that were against him. But when he came to the Vietnam Memorial, I know they were expecting a lot of people to be protesting him. And but there were not that many really, when you look at the numbers that were there, according to- I was not there. That is my shirt come in the next year. Look to me, like there were very few. And there were placards up there. There were more than- 23:14 JG: I was sitting right down there in the VIP seats. 23:17 SM: So, there were more than the 200 that they say there were? 23:21 JG: They had them walled off way up the hill. 23:23 SM: Okay. 23:24 JG: Behind the fence. And, and they were raising the hell. I do not know how many there were, but it sounded like a lot to me. Because I could not, even from that distance. You could hear them chanting, you could hear them screaming. You could hear them hollering. You could hear them taking on an unfamiliar role for them being a protestor. 23:48 SM: That again, goes back to the old business of having a hard time forgiving and forgetting. 23:55 JG: Yeah. 23:55 SM: And-and the wall is supposed to be a place of healing. Nonpolitical, yet there is a political statement being made right there. 24:03 JG: Yeah. Sorry. Life is like that. 24:10 SM: When you look at the Boomers and I got just some general questions, when you look at the Boomer generation, what do you see as their most positive qualities and their most negative qualities? Now you are, you are a couple of years before Jack Smith, I remember when I interviewed him. He is one year older than- But I have never put up a timeframe on Boomers. Because many of the leaders of the protest movement were older graduate students in their late 20s when college students were just coming there at 18, 19. But from your own personal perspective, when you look at the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and the attacks being made in America, what-what are the positive qualities of the young people of that era and one of the negative qualities in your eyes? 24:57 JG: Well, for whatever motive they question. If they ask hard questions, I respect that. They, earlier than most Americans got a quick feel that they were being lied to by their government, by their president. They knew how to raise hell to get attention to what it was-was their cause. All of these are positive things in my view, the government should be looked at with great suspicious of them as they were of Lyndon Johnson. So that is the positive. The negative. Well, I carried the questioning onto lengths and depths maybe they should not have crossed. Anything that opens the country to an epidemic of casual dope use casual sex, casual calls for overthrowing the system and revolution. I think those are all negatives. 26:55 SM: Of course, the overthrowing of- 26:57 JG: And my question would be where the fuck did their revolution go? When the draft ended, juice went out of the movement. And a revolution went down the whole. 27:17 SM: Well, the Boomers always used to- a lot them used to saying college campuses at that timeframe- Of course, I cannot always preface this on college campuses. Because over half of the young people in America, that era did not even go to college. So, we kind of tend to have a tendency at times to just concentrate on what was happening in the schools, and not really investigate what has happened to the other half of the Boomer generation that never attended college. But it is no question that the issues, the issues are what drew students to protest, and that the passion toward those issues, but when the war ended, the Boomers aged. Are they like any other generation? Because Boomers used to say that- 28:04 JG: Forever. 28:05 SM: “We are, we are the most unique generation in American history. Number one, we are going to change the world.” And thirdly, a slogan of that period was it was a very famous Peter Max poster, “You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful.” So, there was that mentality of doing their own thing and, and whatever cause it might be. And the goal would be, hopefully to work together on solving issues. But- 28:33 JG: I, you know, if I am going to fault them for something is that they tend not to clean up the books. You know, they leave a lot of accounts open, things that yesterday they were willing to die for, or at least be uncomfortable for. And when it is done, they do not balance the books. They do not stop and look and say, “Wow, you know, these agrarian reformers that we supported in Cambodia have turned out to be some of the greatest butchers in the history of the world.” Who is protesting? I heard a little bit out of Joan Baez, and that was it. And she was essentially walled off from her whole generation as a consequence. And I have had this argument with, with Boomers before I said, “Where the hell is Jane Fonda?” You have got 3 million dead people. You got bones piled to the ceiling in Cambodia. Where is Jane? Where is Tom? Where-where are the people who cared so much for life. Now, it is all happening in a vacuum because they do not care. They moved on to something else. 30:00 SM: I think Tom Hayden still living his life the way-. He is kind of- he has been in politics out of California. And he is kind of still working hard on the environment and still living as he always did. Although he is very Jane Fonda. What a combination. Has your opinion changed over the last 25 years? When you when you came back in 19? Well, when you were there in (19)65, and then of course, you were over in Europe as a reporter, have you changed your attitudes toward the Boomer generation over that 25-year period? Where have you been pretty consistent in your thoughts on them? 30:40 JG: Fairly consistent. I was a little surprised when they all turned up as lawyers and stockbrokers, driving Volvo's doing the consumer thing. But I guess that is normal. I guess that is a normal progression. But the question is-is that I have had I have had from very early on, and they are still not answered. So no, I have not I have not changed my opinion. 31:20 SM: And those questions are again. 31:26 JG: Where is your revolution? What have you done in this world? You are now turning 50? What have you what have- what is your impact beside the impending bankruptcy of Social Security and Medicare? Where have you left your mark? How have you changed the world? Where- how have you done all those things that you have demonstrated for or demanded? Where is the, where is the beef? 32:02 SM: Would not you say to that, it might be kind of early to say where is the beef? Boomers are just turning 50. And, and this is the time now where they could be leaders the next 10-15 years. So, it is kind of difficult to evaluate them at this juncture. It is a little too early. Would not you say? You are- 32:21 JG: 50, you are getting near the end of the game. You better have a few scouts on your belt, or you are not much of a warrior. You know, this is what they say in the financial planning business. It is time to get serious. Boy, you are going to retire here before long. What have you done? What have you done? 32:52 SM: When you look at the, you know, because you cannot talk about 60 million people just like you cannot talk about all Vietnam veterans. But are there examples of Boomers that you know, who have lived a lifetime of commitment toward a variety of issues? And just as they were when they were 20. They are still doing it at 50. 33:13 JG: Yeah, I would say there are. They have to be out there. I have met some of them. I think like all of us, their-their perspectives have changed. Maybe their causes have changed some. 33:43 SM: I am going to ask a question about trust. When I had a conversation with Senator Muskie, about five years ago, when I took students to Washington, and during the conversation, we were talking about the (19)68 Convention. And at that juncture, I brought up a question about the lack of trust that young people at that time had in people like him, vice presidential running mate, United States senator, you name it. And I wanted him to respond to that. Because I think a lot of people in my generation still do not trust because of what the government did during the Vietnam War. Certainly, the Watergate, everybody knows about Watergate, but the lack of trust, and we see it even amongst the Boomers who do not even vote. Boomers do not vote, and their children do not vote. And a lack of trust and authority already because they were lied to in many respects during the Vietnam War and the-the enemies list that Nixon- all these things have added up and kind of left a psychological imprint into the minds of many of the Boomers not to trust or to ever trust. What is your commentary with respect to that issue of trust am I right on when I am talking about that, and the effect it has had on this generation? And is that, is that one of the lasting effects of those people born between (19)46 and (19)64? Because they went through these experiences they cannot trust and thus they carry that out of their kids, and they do not trust leaders as well. 35:17 JG: I would you know. The strange thing is-is that it is, it is those lower middle class, and lower-class kids who were drafted and shipped first to Vietnam to fight and die, who ought to have less trust in situation than almost anyone, and yet maybe they have more. They still send their children to the army. None of the others do. The army is as a volunteer force, even more isolated than it was as a draftee force by far. Recruitment is all from probably seven Southern states, 80-90 percent of it. 36:10 SM: Oh really? 36:11 JG: Sure. Who sends their kids to the army? There is an economic force and there is, to a lesser extent, sort of familial pressure, there is a 30 percent of them are black. So, there is an economic thing. And there is also the fact that, that, surprisingly, the army may have the most level playing field in American society. If you are a person of color, you go in and if you can meet the standards, you get promoted. So those people who probably have less reason than anybody else to trust- 36:56 SM: Trust more. 36:57 JG: Still trust their children, in the hands of the army in the hands of government, if you will, in the hands of Bill Clinton, who uses the army more readily than any president I have ever known. 37:12 SM: That is an interesting observation. Because- 37:16 JG: Wh-What has happened? The peaceniks are shipping armies. This guy moves, troops at the drop of a hat. It is almost like he does not know that a military course is the last card you play, not the first card. He also does not seem to understand when he was standing out in front of the embassy in London, demonstrating because we were trying to be the world's policeman, what the hell is he doing now? We have an army that is a 911 reaction force. You call we haul? You got someone starving in Rwanda, being killed in the millions by their own government? Hey, we will go fix it. You got a problem in Bosnia? We will send 20,000 American soldiers in there. That is because there is nobody on Capitol Hill. There is nobody in the upper half of your generation, who has a kid in that in that force. 38:35 SM: It is true. 38:36 JG: I do not even know someone who has a kid in that force. If-if war starts tomorrow, there are precisely two people in the US news and world report building who have ever heard a shot fired in anger, and I am half of that force. And the other is a guy who was out in LA who was a grunt. 39:06 SM: Oh, my goodness. How many people were in there? 39:08 JG: Well, there is 130 or 40, editorial side people. But hey, they come out of a different place. They come out of the elite. So, I, you know, basically, their right to be suspicious. Are they right to turn their back on democracy as a system? I doubt that. I would say they are very wrong on that. You know, you have a duty to vote. You have an obligation. It is the simple obligation of citizenship. You live and the freest country on the face of this earth. I think you also have an obligation to defend it, but we will leave that aside. You at least have a minimal obligation to care about who governs it. How it is governed and go down and vote. If you do not do that, you are not much of a citizen are you? 40:11 SM: You are not, definitely. I have seen that amongst college students today. Statistics show that only 18.5 percent of today's young people in entering classes over the last three years have any interest toward being involved in politics, but over 85 percent of them have been involved in some sort of volunteer activity. Now, I am asking myself, and I will ask you the same thing. Is this a sign that students do not feel empowered that their vote does not count that they cannot make a difference? number one, but they feel they can influence other people's lives with their volunteer activity. So, like, an interesting, they can help others. But they are really not feeling empowered to help themselves. 40:54 JG: I do not know the answer to that, I do not know what moves there- they, you know, we are talking, we are sitting here, you and I talking about the Boomers. And, and I can kind of get a fix on them. But I have not got a clue when it comes to the one below them, generation and generation X, whatever you want to call them, you know, these are, these are, this is, this is the generation that-that that is non literate, is the word I am reaching for. But that is not quite it. They are, you know, they do not read books. They are- their information is absorbed visually- 41:31 SM: Fast and sweet. 41:34 JG: Fast, quick. It is computers, it is TV, it is the sort of stuff, and they are not readers. And I do not understand anyone who is not a reader, because it is, it is the very basis of my life. I fell onto it at an early age and-and I have devoured books constantly since then, and it is amazing how far ahead of you they can stay the publishing industry. And now I write books. And I do not know who is going to read them in another 20 years. 42:12 SM: Well, I know that we have computer ages upon us, and in terms of preparing for the future, young people know that they got to be schooling computers, or they are not going to be able to have a decent job, a decent salary, raise a family, you name it. Two good books I would like to recommend for again, in the next question, have you had a chance to read Our War, which is David Harris new book. 42:33 JG: No. 42:34 SM: It is a very good book, for Steven Harris was a protester at Stanford, and went, went to jail for protesting against the war. He was sent to jail for refusing to serve, right. You read the draft; he refused any [crosstalk]. 42:50 JG: A guy that stood up, standup guy. I am not going to go do what I think is wrong. And I am willing to pay the price. I got all the respect in the world, like them as much as I do. 43:02 SM: He was in jail, two years, two plus years. I think. 43:06 JG: Good. That was where he should have been. That was where all the rest of them should have been too. 43:10 SM: Schlesinger has written a book called The Noble Land, which is a very good book, James Schlesinger. Oh, excuse me, James Michener. He has written a brand-new book, This Noble Land, and it is reflecting his 93 years on this earth and talking about the problems of American. It is a good book. 43:28 JG: I will give you a good one that that if you have not read, you should, and it is The Living and The Dead. Robert S. McNamara and Five Lives of Lost World. 43:39 SM: I saw him on footnotes. I have not read the book. Yes. 43:42 JG: Just a splendid book. It is a splendid book. 43:46 SM: There is a person who was touched by the war, who did not serve. 43:51 JG: Yeah. Well, he is a young guy. 43:53 SM: I think he is in his early 40s. I am going to mention a few names here of people that were well known to all boomers in America at the time in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. And I just like to have your comments on them as a person from your own perception and maybe their impact on history, if there is such a thing. I got about 20 different names here and we will be short and sweet. Your perceptions of people like Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. 44:25 JG: You would start with the word the top, the top dogs there. Well, Miss Fonda is an accomplished actress. Mr. Hayden is a pretty good, far left politician in California on local issues. And I do not have a lot of respect for either one of them for the simple reason that they are prime among those who have not balanced the books. When she issued an apology to the “veterans” that was no apology. It was a politician's apology. If I have offended someone, I apologize only because I have offended them not because I did anything wrong. 45:17 SM: What year did you do that? 45:20 JG: Four or five years ago, five or six, the VFW was breathing down her neck and-and she issued a statement. That was ingenious, disingenuous. disingenuous all of those things and did not apologize to anybody. 45:41 SM: I tried to get an interview with her in Atlanta and she rejected an interview. 45:45 JG: I am sure she did. She has made known to be a housewife. 45:55 SM: Then second would be Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. 46:00 JG: Clown princess. The great court has to have some gestures and they were in. 46:12 SM: Dr. Benjamin Spock. 46:16 JG: Well, Spock raised them. He wrote the book. Ask him if he is happy. The way they turned out. How did his kids turn out? I do not know. 46:28 SM: He has written a brand-new book. He is not too happy with some of the boomers. He is reevaluating- 46:34 JG: Who is he blamed? Their mamas did not read his book, right? 46:42 SM: The Barragan brothers, the two Catholic priests who are. 46:47 JG: Very principled men. They never wavered in their convictions. They were willing, like Harris to go to jail. And did. All I ask is that you be a standup guy, that you make a decision based on your consideration of the evidence, the preponderance of the weight of evidence and stand up and say your peace. And if in the saying of it, you must violate a law then be willing to take the punishment for it. 47:29 SM: It is almost like the same thing that Dr. King was professing during the nonviolent protests. He could not understand why people would not be willing to go to jail for protesting he was, and others said “I do not want to go to jail.” But that is part of being a nonviolent protester. 47:42 JG: I spent three years covering the last days of the Soviet Empire. And it was evil. Reagan got one thing, right. It was an evil empire. I covered the trials of Anatoly Sharansky and Ginsberg and guys like this, and I saw them stand up in the face of certain destruction, and yet clinging to a principle stand there and defy the weight of the most awful dictatorship operating on the face of this earth. And they brought tears to my eyes with their statements. Sharansky’s statement, he was convicted in this kangaroo court, without evidence without anything, he was just convicted. And they asked him made a terrible mistake. They said, “Do you have anything to say?” And we were not allowed in. His brother was there, committing to memory, the words that Anatoly Sharansky was saying to these people, and he walked out and spilled it. And he was crying, and we were crying. And it was it was this is my definition of a standup guy. If more people had done that, the dictatorship would have fallen a lot sooner. 49:19 SM: It is almost like getting back to the Vietnam War in terms of the healing. If there is more of an accountability right now on the part of those who did not serve, where they would be up front of and it is not like Jane Fonda, but they were upfront as to watch. And at the same time, show praise for those who did there could be even a greater healing here in America. 49:39 JG: Sure, you know, I mean, most of the Vietnam vets push to it will tell you “You did not go, you did not want to go. I did not want to go either. If I have been smarter, maybe I would have my folks had a little more money and could have kept me in college.” A lot of what ifs but essentially, there was not a lot to be learned in Vietnam from having gone. The only thing really to be learned there was the nobility of the guy in the hole next to you. The best people I ever met in my life; I feel sorry for people who did not go. Reporters and photographers. Sure. If you are my age, and you were not there, I look at you. And I wonder why. Did you ask to go? Did you try? Did you want to go but you could not get your boss to send you? That is one thing. But you were afraid of your life. And so, you did not go to the biggest story in the last half of our century. You did not go? This is, this is the movie of our generation. And when it happened, where were you? You were out buying popcorn or taking a pee? Where were you? Well, what did I get by going? The only the best friends of mine. The most loyal people that I know, guys, that if I made one phone call, would have a phone tree working like this. And if I needed 200 people out on my farm, for whatever purpose, they would be there tomorrow afternoon. And there are not too many people in this country that can say that. 51:34 SM: Not in 1996. 51:37 JG: When my wife died in January, and I took her home to Texas to bury her. And I was crushed. And I was standing in the family home, and I looked out the window and there stood a dozen Hispanic veterans in Vietnam. They heard they turned up. They had stood beside me before and they were there to stand. 52:07 SM: They care. 52:08 JG: They care. You want to know one other thing? 52:12 SM: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 52:12 JG: The United States Army, the 1st Cavalry Division and the 7th Cavalry Regiments and uniformed delegations to my wife's funeral. So, if you did not go, what you missed was that what you missed was the most important thing in life. And I am sorry, I can forgive you. But I cannot give you that. You got to earn that. Where were you standing? Who were you standing beside? If you are in the mood in the mob, can you make a call today and have 200 people turn up to help you? You would be lucky to get one. So that is how it is. 53:09 SM: The Lyndon Johnson. How about Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara together in there? 53:17 JG: No, let us take them separately. Lyndon Johnson, I mean, it is hard to talk about the man. It really is. There was so much right about him and so much wrong about him, all in the same skin. He was the biggest bundle of contradictions of anybody I have ever seen. He was a liar. He was the quintessence of a Texas dealmaker. He would sell his mama, if it got him what he wanted. He wanted a lot of very interesting things. He wanted an into segregation. He wanted a fair deal for poor Blacks or Hispanics. He wanted somehow to lift them up. But he did not understand the basics of it. He did not understand that you have got to give the guy the tools with which he can lift himself. If you are pulling him up, he does not learn anything, it does not. You know, the heart of this city in the heart of every city in America is a legacy. It is the legacy of Lyndon Baines Johnson and the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. Hey, Nixon did not do that Anacostia, go over and take a look better have some door gunners. 55:14 SM: With those bad sections of town. 55:16 JG: Yeah. How would they get there? How come they are still sitting there? Where are they going? They got there because of Lyndon Johnson. Then that is the good part about it. The bad part is Vietnam. Where he started a war on the installment plan. “We will put a dollar on the table now and a dollar on the table tomorrow and $2 later, and we are going to defraud the American public. We know how many men we are going to send. But we are not going to tell them because they would not like it. We know how many billions upon billions of dollars we are going to spend. But we cannot trust them with that information, because then they will not vote for my programs in Congress, the Great Society programs. So, I am going to flim-flam then.” And nobody a better flim-flam artist than Lyndon Baines Johnson from Johnson City, Texas. So, what does he do? He sends divisions off to war to under strength. He knew early as November of 1965, that he was sending 500 to 600,000 Americans to Vietnam. And yet he could sit there and in his State of the Union speech in January of 1966 said, “We have no plans to increase the force.” He lied, he lied, he lied, and you go to hell for lying the same as you do for cheating and stealing. Robert McNamara-McNamara goes to the same lower level of hell that Lyndon Johnson goes to, and his sin is not only mendacity his sin is arrogance. He lied, he cheated, and he was proud of himself. This guy brought generals to their knees, whipped on them so hard they cried, and he did not have a clue what was going on, or how to make it change. He was a bean counter and he counted beans good. 58:06 SM: Body count, body count. 58:09 JG: Body count, every pernicious influence that Vietnam had tracks right to his fingers you know, I can almost forgive Lyndon Johnson just because he was at least entertaining. McNamara was not even entertaining. He was just evil. 58:33 SM: Bottom line, would you consider him just a bottom-line person? 58:37 JG: Oh, worse because the biggest bottom line of all he got wrong. What do you do if you if the-the accounting-accounting firm that is doing the books of Ford Motor Company or General Motors comes in? Wrong? What-what we do to him nothing? We gave him a nice fat job at the World Bank for 10 years. The son of a bitch that tried to throw him over the rail of the ferry boat to Martha's Vineyard. They should have left him go, okay. All he needed was another 10 seconds and old McNamara had been floating down there. 59:18 SM: That was in Hendrickson’s book, I believe. 59:22 JG: Yeah-yeah. There is a baby boomer who acted on his information and impulse and opportunity and more power to him. 59:31 SM: Couple other people, George Wallace. 59:36 JG: Well, on Wallace, another Southern politician, always far more complex than they appear to be on the surface of it. Doing stuff to get elected when they do not believe in it. Wallace, you know, came on like the biggest seg this country ever saw. And he was not that. He has got a whole lot of black friends and people are forgiving him right and left. 1:00:08 SM: What about Eugene McCarthy? 1:00:15 JG: McCarthy, white guy, smart guy, literate guy you know. The trouble politics in this country is if you want to want win, you got to get down in the mud with the pigs. And Gene McCarthy would not do that. Never did it. Well, he is neither did Adlai Stevenson, these kinds of cerebral guys do not usually win elections. 1:00:45 SM: What about George McGovern? 1:00:49 JG: McGovern, to me is the definition of one too many damn lawyers. 1:00:57 SM: But he was not a lawyer, though. He was a- he had a PhD in history. 1:01:04 JG: McGovern? 1:01:04 SM: Yes. 1:01:06 JG: Becoming lawyers around this town. He has gotten a law degree from somewhere. 1:01:10 SM: He is at the Middle East Studies Institute right now. That is where he is. But he got his PhD in South Dakota. He was just on our campus this past week, he was talking about his daughter, Terry, who died of alcoholism. And he got his PhD in history from University of South Dakota. They are building a library in his name right now there. Then he went off to Congress as, after he got his PhD. ran for office, was a congressman. Then he went on to become a senator. And so, he has, he has a PhD in History. Actually, no one ever calls him Dr. McGovern, because he is a senator, but he was a doctorate. 1:01:44 JG: Damn, I thought he was a lawyer. Sure looks like one. 1:01:48 SM: He is a pretty nice guy. 1:01:49 JG: Well, I have to give him a pass on being a lawyer then. 1:01:55 SM: Some of the other people from that era, Dr. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. 1:02:00 JG: Once again, you are putting two guys together that ought to be considered separately. But Martin Luther King, the greatest orator or this country ever had. Spoken beautifully, thought beautifully. I wonder, what do you would think of the situation today? I wonder what Dr. King would think of Mayor Marion Berry. I wonder what he would think of a generation of black politicians who are the most pernicious influence [audio cuts] 1:02:47 SM: Dr. King? 1:02:49 JG: I wondered what Dr. King would think of a generation of his disciples who are now Black political leaders in the cities of our country. People like Mayor Marion berry of Washington, DC. And when I say they are political leaders, I am on being very kind. People like Barry and the Blacks who administer this city, are more pernicious influence in the lives of the poor Black people of this city than anything else I can think of. How does this come to be? How do the sons of Martin Luther King wind up wheeling and dealing and selling their own people down the river? In this city, there are about 90,000 people on a waiting list for public housing. And the waiting list is years long. There are at any given moment 30 to 40,000, empty public housing units, that this administration cannot manage to quit stealing the money long enough to fix so that those units can be put back in service. They are either so corrupt or so inefficient, or both, that they cannot do a simple job like fixing apartments so that poor woman and all our kids has a place to live. Now who are they hurting? Who are they hurting the most? They do not hurt me. They do not hurt you. They are hurting that woman and her kids. I think Dr. King would condemn them all to a hell they richly deserved and in ringing tones. 1:04:54 SM: And these are boomer African American leaders that are around the city now. 1:04:57 SM: You got it. 1:05:00 JG: I do not know Marion Barry, but I am disappointed in him though. 1:05:03 JG: Well, you have got a situation where they have to declare, essentially declare the District of Columbia School System, bankrupt, where they take it over and put one of my best friends as the CEO, General Julius Becton, find soldier. So, nowhere near a boomer generation, the man is 70 years old, joined the army in 1945, was a company commander in Korea was a battalion commander in the 101st airborne in Vietnam, who was fixed stuff, all his life. He is a builder. And they got to reach out and pull this man out of a richly deserved retirement to take on what is arguably the worst job in America. 1:05:57 SM: This gets off my questions. I will get back to the names again, we will talk about Malcolm X. You said a builder, this man who is coming into the city as a builder. When you look at the boomers, now you are talking about some of the African American leaders here in this city? Are boomers’ builders? Are they the people that bring people together to unite for a cause for the betterment of society? That is very generalistic terms? But though, that was the mentality on the college campuses, and we are going to- 1:06:26 JG: That was what they set out to be, but they did not end up that. They set out with ringing calls for change and revolution. And they do not even make good caretakers. 1:06:43 SM: Look at the life of Malcolm X, what are your thoughts on him? 1:06:48 JG: I do not think much about Malcolm X. I do not know that he was much of a force for good for his people. If his legacy is-is the guy out in Chicago now. If that is his legacy, what is it worth? A man who divides conquered by division. 1:07:18 SM: At the end of his life, though, a lot of young people, they look at his life as a person who changed because everybody knows that Malcolm was at one time in jail. He was a pimp. Of course, he was a follower, and he was also actually white men are devils that type of mentality. But then the last part of his life he changed when he went to Mecca, so some people look at that life as a person who liked change and he saw the good in everyone as opposed to just-just in black people. 1:07:51 JG: What did it get him? 1:07:52 SM: Got him killed. That was what it got. So, well, a couple of other people here and I have got I have got so many on the list, but these are kind of people from the era. 1:08:03 JG: Keep rolling. 1:08:06 SM: Ralph Nader. These are all names the boomers talk, and this is part of their life. These people were part of their life. 1:08:15 JG: Nader is quixote, I guess, still tilting at windmills? He has been consistent. The Soviets always admired consistency. They said, you know, “We do not care what you are as long as you are consistently that. We have a hard time shifting our view you know, so if you are, you are a son of a bitch as long as you are consistently a son of a bitch we can, we can live with you. It is when you-you bounce from side-to-side.” Nader is consistent. I do not know what his ultimate [inaudible]. He balanced the books on him at the end of his life, what he will have achieved in the long run. 1:09:15 SM: What about the people that were the musicians of the era? Certainly, even in Vietnam and music was played over there. People that have the generation, the Bob Dylan the Jimmy Hendrix, The Janis Joplin, Joan Baez, you name it the list go on and on. What-what are your thoughts about those people who performed the music delivered the messages. I know Country Joe and the Fish, boy, is he unbelievable. You know, when he came to Vietnam memorial, a couple of years back and he performed at the top of the wall and you probably there that day and-and I want to interview him, I am going out to California in the summer. And I want to interview him out at Berkeley because I think he has got an awful lot to say. Have you got his Vietnam album too? 1:09:45 JG: no. 1:09:46 JG: Oh, it is beautiful. He actually wrote a whole album on Vietnam. He has beautiful music and I think he did in the last four years. It is all music for the last four years. What are your What are your thoughts on them? 1:10:11 JG: Well, that is the soundtrack of our generation. That was the music that we heard in Vietnam, it was the same music that was heard in the streets here. Music and Musicians are a powerful force. Almost, I should say, as powerful as poets. Not quite, but almost, you know, the older I get, when I want to find truth, I look in the volumes of poetry not in the volumes of history. So, the musicians, they are out there. When I look at them, it is with a certain amount of sadness. Because so many of them burned their lives out so quickly on drugs. Their messages were mixed. They took their own advice too often and-and it killed a lot of them. 1:11:09 SM: Phil Ochs killed himself. Yeah. So, upset. He is disappointed in life, and he just did himself in. 1:11:18 JG: And that should not be, you know, the bar, just the poet's the musicians, they should be our optimists. They should be giving us a message that allows us to go forward, carry on. If they cannot find in their own music, hope what is there- 1:11:51 SM: If you think about, I do not think there has really been anything written on the musicians in depth, individual books, but looking at the musicians and their impact that time. It is just a couple other ones and that is Daniel Ellsberg. 1:12:10 JG: Ellsberg certainly performed a great service by leaking the Pentagon papers, documentary evidence of the lies that had been told of the bankrupted policy of which he was one of the architects. So, his one great act, was an act of leakage. 1:12:40 SM: Of course, Richard Nixon. 1:12:43 JG: Ah now, Nixon is such a complex man. He is one that I have a hard time forgiving. At least as hard as time as I do McNamara. This is the man who came to office to end the war and yet another 20-25,000 men died while he played politics, he and Kissinger, they all end up in the same level of hell with McNamara and Johnson. They really do. Their whatever contributions they made are so outweighed by the evil that they did. 1:13:34 SM: Do you feel that strongly about Kissinger too? 1:13:37 JG: Yeah, oh, more so with Kissinger. Kissinger was so smart. And then, and yet he would sacrifice anything for his own ambition for His own glory. I think about I really, when I went to Indonesia, the ambassador there was a man named Marshall Green, who had been in the Foreign Service all his life. A very honorable, decent man. He started his career in in the Embassy in Tokyo before on the eve of World War II. And he was the assistant secretary for Far East affairs, the year that Nixon and Kissinger decided to begin the secret bombing campaign and in Cambodia and to do the invasion- 1:14:43 SM: That was 1970, yeah, April 30th. 1:14:46 JG: Yeah. And they ran it by him. Sort of pro forma, you know, and he argued with, he said, “No.” He said, “This is wrong. This will achieve no purpose, except to destroy the Cambodian people. It will not alter the end of the Vietnam War in any measurable fashion, not by one day, not by one body. And it will not make the difference between winning and losing. It will be gratuitous offense against a bunch of people who are kind of a sideshow, they are out of it. Do not do it.” And they said, “Fine, Mr. Secretary, your objections are noted, we are going ahead.” And he said, “Wait a minute, maybe I have not been eloquent enough.” And he argued with them. And they said, “Okay, you have had your say, shut up.” And he went back and argued again, at which point they fired him. They made him the ambassador to Australia and made and finished his career as the ambassador to the World Population Planning Council. They destroyed a man, they destroyed millions of men, by their acts. Where do you find forgiveness for this? Where do you find a little wiggle room for a man like Kissinger or Nixon? 1:16:39 SM: It is amazing through the actions of all these politicians. And the effect they had on the young people who were growing up at that time, not only veterans who fought in that war, and everybody who lived in saw the war was run was against the war. And, of course, the Civil Rights Movement was going on at that time, too, so cannot forget about that. But the lasting psychological impact of this has had on us as a nation as well as Senator Gaylord Nelson said, the body politic. And he said, I interviewed Gaylord Nelson, who was against the Vietnam War, one of the first senators and he said “He does not know anybody who walks around with lack of healing on their sleeve was a boomer about the Vietnam War. But he did say that that war destroyed the body politic. And it has never been the same sense. 1:17:35 JG: It has not, quite right. You know, if you have to go back in our history, the only other event as-as divisive and corrosive to the American way of governing and being governed the body politic, as the senator said, you go to the Civil War, and there is the same depth of division, anger and bitterness in Vietnam than there was in that. Excuse me. And I do not know, you still get in a pretty good fistfight down the south over the Civil War. And we are 120 years past it. So how long does Vietnam last? How long is it an influence in the life of this country? You know, it could be long past, our lifetimes, our lifespans, and probably will be. I participated in the making of a documentary film. We took a dozen Vietnam veterans back to Vietnam and walked our battlefield in the company. 1:19:01 SM: I saw that. 1:19:01 JG: The man who tried to kill us, but when they were doing in studio interviews, I met [inaudible] daughter was one of the people carrying [inaudible]. And she gave the story of her father and what his death in battle did to her life. And at some point, Forrest Sawyer said, “Well, the book has been written, it is this close the circle.” And she looked at him like he was crazy. She said, “The story is not over. It is not over as long as I draw breath. That war killed my father when I was 17 months old, and it will not be over for me during all my life, nor will it be over during the lives of my children. So how long do we reach out? How long does it go? 1:20:07 SM: Last name I have here is actually two of them. Your thoughts on Spiro Agnew and what he was doing back here as the vice president and Gerald Ford, the partner. 1:20:22 JG: Oh, Agnew. He was he was such an inconsequential person. You know, I do not even think about it. He just does not matter. He did not matter, then he does not matter now. He was not even a good puppet. Who else was it that you asked about? 1:20:53 SM: Gerald Ford. 1:20:54 JG: You asked Gerald Ford, Gerald Ford. You know? I thought Gerald Ford was good man. I thought he was probably the right guy to be the caretaker president after Nixon. I wish he had not given out any pardons. I think Nixon, Kissinger should have been in a cell right down the road from John Mitchell and the rest of those guys. But you know, there was a cartoon that somebody good drew the day that Ford left office. And it was maybe Herb Block, I do not know. But it was very interesting. What he did was he had Ford up a ladder cleaning the seal of the President of the United States wearing a painter's hat. And when he started this, he was encrusted with filth and grime and-and it had him finishing up it was, it was back in shape. It was looking pretty good. And I thought that was a pretty fair, pretty fair estimate. You know, you can just as you cannot say anything about Spiro Agnew, because he was inconsequential. You cannot really say much bad about Jerry Ford. He was decent. 1:22:41 SM: He was a bad golfer. 1:22:42 JG: He was a bad golfer, but a decent man, a decent human being. And have we had a Spiro Agnew as the successor to Nixon? I am not sure that we would be sitting in the United States of America, the place might have come a fight. 1:23:00 SM: It would have, they hated him on college campuses. With one quick question here today, two the interview, the Vietnam War ended. Why? 1:23:13 JG: Why did it end? 1:23:14 SM: Yeah, why did the Vietnam war end? 1:23:16 JG: Because the American people had had it right up to their epiglottis. They had it with the coffins coming home. They had had it with the lies of the politicians they had it with the body count. Hey, we won. Because we killed 10 of them for every American, they killed. It is not a bargain; the American people knew. They knew it was not a bargain. And-and they wanted, they wanted it stopped. Not for what the kids were doing in the streets but for what that war was doing to our country. It stopped because the American people stopped it. They did not want it anymore. 1:24:13 SM: There are two or two or three issues that define a generation. Boomers, I think historically will always be attached to the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights Movement, even though the Civil Rights Movement was really strong in the (19)50s and the early (19)60s. 1:24:29 JG: Yeah, exactly. I would say- 1:24:30 SM: And actually- 1:24:30 JG: They had less to do with the Civil Rights Movement. What that was, that was a- 1:24:37 SM: Is not it interesting though, that a lot of movements came about at the time of the Vietnam War, the Women's Movement came about at that time. Of course, the whole you know, what happened about the Vietnam Memorial now. We have got the nurses being recognized at the wall. There were so many, I mean, the Native American Movement, the Hispanic Movement, there were so many movements happening all at the same time. And they were all protesting against what was going on in America. But it is like- that protest mentality really came about because of the Vietnam War and a few of the things that were happening on college campus respect to administration and not being allowed to do political activities on campus. So, there were some things in school too. But what is the lasting legacy? What do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation who are now reaching 50? Do not forget, they are, they are 50 years old, or from 34 to 50 right now. 1:25:30 JG: Yeah, well, there is still time for him to get their shit together. There is still time for them to leave some kind of legacy dividends for the stockholders of the Volvo Motor Company you know, I read the financial papers and I see them talking about “Well, the Boomers did not, have not saved any money but that is okay. Because their mamas and daddies are dying now. And they are inheriting their money.” And thank God their mamas and daddies did save. Is thisthis what you are going to say at the end? Well, they-they inherited some money. So, they were able to live okay. Even though Social Security went down the tubes and so did Medicare. You know, they got to get their shit together and get to work and fulfill some of their promises. You want to you know, it. I am 55 now. And for the last five, six years, my thoughts have really turned to trying to leave a legacy of a little better world for my sons who are 16 and 18. I would really like them to inherit a kinder, gentler world. And I pray every day that they will never know war as I have known it. That they will never see a young man dying in their arms as I have and see the life flow out of him, and you are helpless to do anything. I do not want that for them. I do not want that for any son and any daughter in this country. So, you know, what I guess I am saying is that- very good friend of mine died about three years ago, a guy named B. T. Collins. He was a California politician. He had been Jerry Brown's Chief of Staff. He was Pete Wilson's great friend. Now if you can do those two things. He was also a double amputee, lost a leg and an arm in Vietnam with Special Forces. Had his 100 percent disability pension. He could have walked out of Valley Forge Hospital, a bitter-bitter man and never contributed anything. Instead, he went off to law school and spent what was left of his life really, working harder than any three men I knew toward healing the body politic. Toward helping the helpless toward making the system work. Now nothing wrong with that. Nothing to say that the boomers cannot do that. In fact, what I am saying is that they should, and they ought and if they want to leave a legacy somewhere beyond that is something more than the headlines, sex, drugs and rock and roll, then they got to bend down and do it. They picked up somewhere along the way a reputation for selfishness. And it started at the beginning. They were too good to go fight in this war. That was the work of poor people, the children of poor people and the disadvantaged. We have a president in the White House today said” I will not risk my viability as a politician in the future by going to Vietnam where I might get killed.” So, we have them, the worst of the yuppie movement. And it was pernicious and is. “He who dies with the most toys wins.” These are not legacies. These are things to overcome. And I do not mean get out there and hug trees. I mean, get out there and do something for people. 1:30:41 SM: Good point because we talked about the yuppies. They live in certain sections of cities, a lot of them are boomers. Yeah, one of the basic premises, if I remember correctly, and when I was in college, “Money does not matter.” I heard that over and over again, it is not about money. It is not about it yet. 1:31:01 JG: And there they are. 1:31:02 JG: Yeah, some of them are still “Money is not meant anything to me. I have stayed in higher education my whole life, because-because of what happened.” 1:31:08 JG: Good thing it does not mean anything to you. 1:31:10 SM: Yeah. 1:31:10 JG: Yeah. 1:31:11 SM: But I am guilty. We had Congressman Penny on our campus. And he said that “The boomers just do not save.” And he said, “You know, something, Steve?” He said that “ I have not saved either.” Remember, Congressman Penny, you left a couple of years ago, a Democrat from Minnesota. He, he is not poor by any means. But I am saying he is raising five kids. And he says, “I am just part of the legacy. I do not save either.” And so, there is some truth to that. Nope, they do not save. 1:31:35 JG: They do not save. 1:31:45 SM: As if there is no tomorrow. And I do not know if that says something about the boomers that “I am going to live for today. Because there is no tomorrow,” I do not know. So. 1:31:45 JG: Well, then you get to be over 50. You better rethink your position. 1:31:51 SM: The last question, I am going to ask then we will be finished here. I might go over into the next little section here in the tape, that is getting back to the wall. In 1982, I think it was (19)82 for the opening? Are you pleased with what the wall has done for America? Not the Vietnam veterans now what it has done for America as a whole? Because it is pretty well known fact that anybody who comes to that wall, whether they were in the war, family members of someone who served in that war, or someone who died in that war, or someone who remembers their college experience during that war, or if they were working in a factory during the war, and did not go to college, all those flashbacks of where I was, come back, and then then the little kids are right there. And they say to their dad or mom, “Dad, what did you do?” Kids will always ask those kinds of questions. And I am wondering that-that is what it means to me. I have to keep going back because when I was a college student, you know, I guess there might be some sort of guilt that I wish I had served, but I could not serve because I had a severe asthma. And, and it was 1970. And I was in the hospital during the Cambodia invasion. I was graduating in 1970 at State University in New York at Binghamton. And I broke my arm and it was a very serious arm break, and I almost had it amputated and I was in the operating room for five hours, about two weeks before graduation. And everybody in my whole family was in the hospital and the Cambodian invasion was happening, April 30. That was April 30, 1970. I was in the hospital for two straight weeks, two days before I went under graduation. It was a magic moment for me, because the doctor who came in and after he had operated and saved my arms. And he said, “I wish they would shoot all those damn kids; I wish they would kill them all.” And I said, “As a college senior, who saw the tremendous divisions in America, I want to do something in my own small way to bring people back together again. So, I get real emotional about the Vietnam War, even though I did not serve because I care about Vietnam veterans. I have been working with them in Philadelphia since 1983. So, when I worked with him on the wall in Philadelphia, and we help raise money, it is a long story. But I wanted to do something in my own small way. As I said this to Jan once too. And I really said it to Lewis, when we took our students to the wall, to try to do the next phase to assist the process that began at the wall. And that is to write some sort of a book about this very complex era, in this very complex time. Pick some of the best people in America and ask them the tough questions and just let them reveal so that we can kind of heal as a nation, even beyond the Vietnam veterans. And I actually have an ultimate goal beyond this. The ultimate goal is I have been thinking that I may even go to Oliver Stone because I know Robert Groden, who was a consultant with the movie JFK, to get financial backing to bring to the university campuses of America and maybe to the town halls of America in two years, symposiums over a nine-month period, one per period, bringing back those who were for and against the war, people who serve in the war, just to try to bring them together to try to understand. Almost like the Jimmy Carter concept when he does have the Carter Center to bring the sides back. Just do something to help and assist. And I always quote in my own small way. So, my final question is-is this such an effort worthy of the effort number one? And just your overall thoughts, again, the overall impact that the wall has had on America beyond the veterans, because I know what-what the effect is had on the veterans? 1:35:56 JG: Well, it reaches far beyond the veterans for the simple reason that that I saw someone did an estimate that there are 40 million Americans who have some personal connection to a name in the wall. They were a college classmate, or- 1:36:17 SM: Me, too. 1:36:17 JG: They were a high school classmate, or you know, an in law, a sibling, whatever. 40 million Americans care about at least one of those names on that wall. So, they care about all of them. And what has its impact. The other thing that is operating there, and operated, you know, when they were doing the welcome home parades for the Gulf veterans, and they went far overboard and out of proportion in doing this, and I, you know, a lot of my friends called up and said, “I think I am angry about this.” And I said, “Do not do that. Because what they are doing is they are overcompensating because they did nothing for you. So, this is as much for you as it is for them. And so, you go on down to the parade. And, and you watch because this is America saying 20 years too late. Welcome home all of you. Welcome Home Vietnam veterans too.” And that was the way it worked in the parades. The young troops would reach and pull the veterans off of the curbs and into the parade. So, my counsel was “Let go of the bitterness, it is misplaced. The American people know what they did not do. And they are ashamed of it”. And the thing is where we come to, is that here we have a country where only three million win. And today, I would bet you that out there in the land, there are 10 million wannabes who are pretending that they did go. 1:38:32 SM: Really? 1:38:32 JG: What does this say? 1:38:34 SM: There are those types of people that say they are a veteran. 1:38:37 JG: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Any number of them. We detect them all the time. And then- 1:38:45 SM: That is the worst. 1:38:46 JG: That is, in our view, imitation is not any sincere form of flattery, but-but here today in this country, there are a lot of people who pretend to be Vietnam veterans. Now, this is not a sea change of attitude. I do not know what is. 1:39:09 SM: I had never heard that before. 1:39:12 JG: Oh, there are guys who specialize in debunking these frauds. And they turn up in amazing places, not a federal judge, but a high-ranking judge in Chicago, was presenting himself as a Vietnam veteran and Medal of Honor recipient and got an AO. 1:39:33 SM: People do not speak- 1:39:38 JG: The publisher of The Arizona Republic, Dan Quayle’s family newspaper, presented himself as a Vietnam veteran fighter pilot. False, got caught, got fired. 1:39:54 SM: Put it on the resume and the whole- 1:39:56 JG: Yeah. 1:39:56 SM: Oh my goodness. 1:39:57 JG: Yeah, politicians do it all the time. But worse, yet you have the guys who put on the kameez and put on medals to which they are not entitled, and-and go around presenting themselves and their opinions as those of Vietnam veterans. But what a distance we have come. 1:40:16 SM: Gosh. Yeah. 1:40:20 JG: To put Vietnam veteran on your resume would have been a guarantee 20 years ago- 1:40:25 SM: No job. 1:40:26 JG: That you were not going to get that job. 1:40:27 SM: That is amazing. Yeah, I just go to the wall. I have gone now seven times. And I call Jan's office and I get the pass. I take students there now. I am probably going to take some students there on Memorial Day, this next year, because we graduate late, I took three to Veterans Day last year. And I took students to meet- 1:40:46 JG: You have got to watch them. They have got a lot of frauds down there. 1:40:49 SM: Oh, at the, at the ceremonies themselves? 1:40:52 JG: Oh yeah, the wall. A couple of- three years ago, up turns a young lady, quite striking and attractive, who said that she was the daughter of Oliver Stone’s Sergeant Elias. And Sergeant Elias’s name is indeed on the wall. And she came to a meeting of the sons and daughters, the organization for children of men who were killed in Vietnam. Told her long and sad story and went down to the wall and full Apache regalia and did the burning of the feathers and all of this crap and-and I think she even made it onto the platform the year, the year after, and then shortly thereafter, it was discovered that the whole tale was just that, a tale. 1:41:52 SM: Oh my God. 1:41:54 JG: So, this is one more strange story in a town full of them. 1:42:02 SM: My goodness. I see a lot of people there every year. It is packed every year. I see the people talking, "Where did you serve," and everything. And they ask me. And everybody asks every time I sit there, except when I was with the students, they knew I brought students. And I said, "I did not serve." But I know back in 1983, when I first came to Philadelphia from California because I worked out there at another university, that I got to know the Vietnam veterans. Because we were going to do a program on the posttraumatic stress disorder with Dr. Harry Schwartz, who was at Jefferson Medical School. And I got to know Harry Gaffney and Dan Fraley, and Dennis Best, some of the Vietnam veterans are well known in Philadelphia who did the markings. And Harry said, "Steve, I am going to tell you right now, you are not one of us." But you have to gain the trust of the Vietnam Veterans. So, all the people that I invited, I met with 20 of the top Vietnam veterans, Wally Nunn, CEO in Philadelphia who was close to, I forget who it is, Mayor Rendell, whatever. But I had to be very open and at the outset, that I did not serve, and I told them why. And they said that was very important, first, to be honest, and open, and upfront about it. And then, the second thing is to try to put this program together and to show you care. And so, what we did, we did that program. And I got it on tape, too. It was a very good program. But it got to be so darn political, because Don Bailey would not shake the hands of the Vietnam veterans that were there, who worked so hard on the Wall. And I could not believe that here is a guy, a Purple Heart winner, and Don Bailey was a Purple Heart winner, yet he refused to go up into the room with Harry and Dan. And I could not understand the bitterness there when all they cared about was creating that Wall in Philadelphia. And I do not know if you have been to the Wall in Philly, but it is a beautiful wall. They have had a lot of problems with graffiti. People try to destroy. There is a lot of roadblocks to getting that property as well. Of course, Edison High School has the most people who died in the Vietnam War. So, it is a- 1:44:03 JG: A good guy you may want to go to go look up. I am reading the story. Someone handed it to me at the wall. It is a Denver Post story about a Vietnam veteran. He was one of McNamara's Project, 100,000 guys. These are the people where they went out and they lowered the standards. So, they were taking people with an IQ of 60 and below and making drafting them and making them soldiers and sending to Vietnam where they died at a rate three times higher than the average draftee. This is by way of they said, "Bootstrapping. We are going to help these guys out of poverty and out of the inner city. So, we are going to send them to the army." Well, this guy out in Pueblo, Colorado is one of those guys. And he is 100 percent disabled, unable to work. Launched a personal campaign five years ago, basically around the malls and the grocery stores with a can collecting dimes, and quarters, and dollars to build a Memorial. 1:45:23 SM: In Denver? 1:45:23 JG: Stones in Pueblo. 1:45:25 SM: Oh Pueblo, okay. 1:45:26 JG: With the 680 names of the Coloradoans killed in Vietnam, and this guy is barely functional, but he managed to go around to companies and get them to agree to help. He got someone to agree to engrave the names, somebody else to donate the stone. He went to the city council and made a presentation and got them to cough up 15 grand and bang they dedicated it last two weeks ago. 1:45:55 SM: An article in the Denver Post? 1:46:00 JG: Yeah, and on the day, they dedicated the Veterans Administration cut his pension in half because if he could do such a project surely, he could do a job too. 1:46:12 SM: Is that where we are today? 1:46:13 JG: Is that where we are today? You bet your ass. 1:46:17 SM: Yeah, I have got to get a copy. Do you know who? Is it the Denver Post of- 1:46:20 JG: Denver Post- 1:46:22 JG: People probably know by calling to get the- 1:46:23 JG: Call him. They got it. 1:46:27 SM: Any other lasting words of advice? Any thoughts on the boomer generation? 1:46:32 JG: No. I will let what you have got stand. I probably said too much too bluntly. 1:46:38 SM: No-no, that is what I wanted. 1:46:38 JG: And all I do is say what is in my heart. 1:46:41 SM: When I met with Jack Smith, I asked him “Who should I interview?” And he-he just said one name, you. That is unbelievable. 1:46:51 JG: Jack is a wonderful man. I do not know how he retained his sanity going through what he went through. I went through some stuff but nothing like that stuff. 1:47:09 SM: Yeah, he is, he is unbelievable. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Lee Gallaway Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gallaway, Joseph Lee ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource War correspondents; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 -- Journalists; Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988 -- Journalists; Iraq War, 2003-2011 -- Journalists; Authors; Gallaway, Joseph Lee--Interviews Description An account of the resource Joseph Lee Gallaway is a veteran war correspondent and an author. In his writing, Galloway covered conflicts all across the world, including the Vietnam War, the first Persian Gulf War, and the Iraq War. He is the co-author of the Vietnam War book <em>We Were Soldiers Once... and Young</em>, which was later adapted into a movie, <em>We Were Soldiers</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-11-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.5a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.5b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 107:13 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e27f2dc53b45ef8f06ea8ef171ca17df.jpeg 48dc3521a08a7081264f0c89eb45f8e5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7834a42ac41cd495dd8afd4f66a0d4fa.MP3 5c356abfdd34f052f109147af336991a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 19 November 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joseph Lewis Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:31:26 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Joseph Lewis, originally from Massillon, Ohio, is a survivor of the Kent State shootings. Lewis was an 18-year-old freshman, studying pre-professional social work when he was shot while attending the student protest rally in 1970. He quit school in 1972 and moved to Oregon, where he has resided ever since. Lewis retired from the Scappoose, Oregon Public Works Department in 2013 as supervisor of the water treatment plant. He also served 16 years on the Scappoose Board of Education. Keywords Cleveland; Boomer generation; Civil Rights Movement; 1960s; Woodstock generation; College campus; President Nixon; Vietnam War; Student activism; Kent State shooting; Trust. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Joseph Lewis Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger and Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 2 December 2021 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 All right. My first question, Joe, is where did you grow up, and what were your parents’ careers and backgrounds in your early years? And when you talk about this, also describe your elementary and high school years. JL: 00:18 Okay, that is a good question. I grew up on the near west side of Cleveland. I think a part of town used to be called the old Brooklyn. It is where the Christmas story is set kind of SM: 00:32 Oh, that one. JL: 00:33 [inaudible] from long ago. And, and I grew up I went to the elementary schools in Cleveland from the from kindergarten to the fourth grade, and I will name the schools and you will, you will see commonality I went to kindergarten at St. Mary's kindergarten. And I went to first to fourth grade in Cleveland that Our Lady of Good Counsel school, and then we moved just outside of Parma, Ohio, and I went to fourth to eighth grade at St. Francis de Sales school. And then my family moved to Massillon, Ohio, just 50 miles south of Cleveland, because my dad was a traveling salesman, and that was more centrally located because sales area, where I enrolled at Central Catholic High School in Canton. So, you will see the commonality there. I went to all parochial schools, as did all my brothers and sisters. I was the oldest of eight kids, seven who survive. And my dad, my dad was a salesman for a couple of different lumber wholesalers, United States plywood, and then later warehouse. And my mom was a homemaker, you know, in those days, you could get by with one income. SM: 01:57 Right. During those first- do you want to add anything more? JL: 02:06 Always. But go ahead. [laughs] SM: 02:08 During, the question? I think you are a Catholic then, right. [laughter] JL: 02:13 Oh yeah, oh yeah, that is true. SM: 02:17 During those- JL: 02:19 Good deduction. [laughter] SM: 02:21 I can put two and two together there. During your first 18 years of life, did you identify with your generation called Boomer, I mean- JL: 02:34 Oh, I am so stereotypically boomer. I mean, I was a boy scout, an altar boy. I was a kind of a goody, goody, I did not, I did not challenge too many of the rules in those days. So, it was like the Eisenhower era, you know, and things were- it was post-war, booming as they say and, and everything was-was kind of like growing. And I was very stereotypical of the era, I would think. SM: 03:06 Did you did you in your neighborhood, at your schools, your parents’ friends, were a lot of the parents World War Two veterans and if they were, did you ever, did they ever talk about World War Two? JL: 03:21 I grew up on the, when I was on the near west side our-our community was a lot of immigrants from different parts of the world. We had, on my street we had, my grandparents came from Slovakia, my maternal grandparents. So, there were Slovak people. There were Polish people. There were Italian people. There were Puerto Rican people, and German people all on our street. And so, I do not remember too much of the parents discussing World War Two. And I think that my parents were a little bit younger. They were too young for World War Two and too old for Korea. My dad, he was born in (19)30. So-so he himself was not, was not a Vet. And I do not remember too much discussion about it. Although you remember the, I assume you are a boomer too? SM: 04:20 Oh, yeah. I am front edge. JL: 04:22 Remember, remember our entertainment was all about I mean, World War Two movies and heroism: and patriotism: was-was all over the entertainment world at that time. But as far as the discussion of World War Two Vets, I did not I did not get exposed to that too much. Now, my grandfather lost a brother in World War Two. And, and he would, you know, they call it cursing. But what it really is-is when cursing is really when you invoke the names of the dead. When he would get really-really mad, he would say, "Oh, for the love of Mike" and that would be his brother who was killed in the war. SM: 04:59 Wow, yeah. Yeah, I grew up in, in a community where there were a lot of vets, but they never talked about the war, it was nothing, it was just raising- JL: 05:08 Yeah. SM: 05:09 -a family going to work. Mom was at home taking care of the kids, dad was out making the money. So that is kind of that happened to a lot. JL: 05:17 Yeah. SM: 05:18 You know, as far as you know, the boomers themselves, you know, you have you lived long enough now to be a young boomer and an older boomer. When you were young through say, 40, what were some of the qualities that you admired in your, in your generation, when they were younger? Especially the front edge boomers that were born between (19)46 and say, (19)57, because boomers go up to (19)64? JL: 05:46 Well, you know, I do not know, if I really reflected on-on that, that much. I am proud of the things that, that our generation has-has done, I think that we brought attention to the environment and, and to war policies and, and to treatment of minorities. You know, and we, of course, I think what impressed me most was the was the Civil Rights Movement. Martin Luther King was the greatest American of my lifetime. And, and the effort he led to you, get equality for all, I think, is what-what I am kind of most focused on as a positive of our time here and in the USA. And there were struggles, you know, it was a struggle of the new the new appreciation of what was real and who was being treated fairly and who was not. SM: 06:50 Yeah, it is interesting, because when we were young boomers, there was a summer of (19)64, which is when all those young people, a lot of African Americans, but a lot of white Americans who went down the south to try to get African Americans to vote, and risked their lives in doing so. And that was in (19)64. So, and that was- JL: 07:11 Yeah-yeah. SM: 07:11 -right at the time when we were in high school. JL: 07:15 Right. SM: 07:16 So, there was a lot of that, that that happening as well. And, and, you know, there was a lot of books being written now on the boomer generation, because we were now the oldest generation- can you believe it? It is hard to believe that this generation that, you know, when they were young thought they would probably never grow old. But when you reflect on this whole generation, as a whole now as a person, and probably in your early 70s, what are, did they succeed? Or did they fail in their kind of their, you know, when we talk about the protest movement, and talking about the-the amount of activists that were probably only about 7 or 8 percent, of the 74 million, who are truly activists in their lifetime. But when you look at that, their accomplishments over time, there is a lot of commentary now, some say they were, they were no different than any other generation, what made them different, in your view? JL: 08:14 Well, the unique opportunity. I think we had to, to live in a country at a time when it was booming economically and when there was a great growth of free time. And we-we did not have to struggle just to stay alive. So, we could experiment with thoughts, ideas and practices that before were not, I do not think they were within the reach of, of people, some of the things that we had the opportunity to do like travel and, and just experiment with different ways of thinking in organizations. And I think we benefited from, from the relative peace after World War Two that allowed us, allowed our families to thrive. And give us give us stability you know, in our, in our daily lives. I think that, I think that in many ways we-we did succeed and opening, opening the discussion for like, we talked about the Civil Rights Movement and the environmental movement, American Indian Movement, anti-war movement, and I mean, those were struggles that are more, I would say more or less successful at least in drawing attention to the problems- not in solving them, but at least in pointing them out is an important thing I think. SM: 09:52 You raise something very important, Joe and then it is, you know what, when you are, we had time to be able to discuss these things with our peers, with their teachers with even our parents. And, and so it is like the sense of kind of, we were around people who talked like we did about the things we cared about- civil rights, ending the war, whatever, as a kind of sense of community. There was a sense of some sort of a community, which is also often times divide, it is part of a quality of being an activist. JL: 10:31 Yeah, I, you know, well, my sense of community is, I mean, I am the oldest of eight. And so, I tend to be an extrovert and kind of a bossy to brothers anyway, so I had a lot of networking in high school, and I had the friends in all different kinds of groups and, and people who thought like me, and people who did not think like me. But eventually going to college for a while, and then and then kind of, kind of identifying with like, the anti-war movement and cultural, certain cultural appreciations, focused my-my group identity even more, and so. So, in a way that is good, in a way it is bad and the way it is good is that I did get great discussions about ideas, and feelings and sentiments that I had. But it also, we see from the developments recently with the Facebook algo- algorithms and things that it, kind of is an isolating in a way to be around people who think like you. SM: 11:43 It is true. JL: 11:45 So-so I had both of those effects. But yeah, I definitely felt a sense of community and in those heady days of (19)68, (19)69, (19)70, when it seemed like, you know, the Woodstock generation. I mean, it seems a far cry to say the boomers are the same as the Woodstock generation, but I guess we are and, and it seemed like there was a change on the horizon for the better. And it was just about to flip to where appreciations would be modified away from profit and more for the, you know, the desire to do right and be good and fair. And just and. SM: 12:33 Did you- JL: 12:33 I think there was a part of the community I recognized. SM: 12:36 Yeah, did you feel, yes, you personally, you are, you are a young person. This is I am feeling [inaudible] myself here, too. I felt, it was great to be young. I cannot explain it. JL: 12:47 Oh, yeah. SM: 12:47 Yeah, I could be. I could be on a bus. And I would see a beautiful girl or a woman and she was part of my generation. I could I could go over and talk to her. And I did, [inaudible]. But I could talk to her. I felt good. I mean, there was I felt good about myself. And my generation. JL: 13:07 Yeah, you know, there was a commonality. I mean, if your hair was a little bit long, or if you had on, if you have on bell bottom pants, or beads or something, you had identifiers that kind of gave away some of your thinking. SM: 13:24 Right. JL: 13:25 Which meant-meant you were thinking like me. So, there was like an automatic network evolved for based on sight clues, I guess you would say. SM: 13:36 If you have any, you know, there was a talk back then about what they call the generation gap. There is, in fact, one of my individuals I interviewed wrote the book on the generation gap and his father and person he worked for- was there a generation gap in your family? JL: 13:53 Oh, definitely was, yeah, definitely was. My dad was, I think, voted for Nixon, at least once. And, and he was, he was not a powerfully strong conservative, but he you know, was, was a, this was the time, and I do not need to tell you, before Watergate. So, before Watergate, the people did not question what the government said as to being truthful or not. And so, there was I think there was an [inaudible]- and I did, I questioned the truth of the reports going back from Vietnam about how hard we were winning that war and, and our purposes for being there and so forth. And so, we did have a generation gap, my dad, after I was shot at Kent State, he assumed that I had done something wrong, which in fact, I did not. I mean, I-I did give some men with the rifle a finger, which is a bad idea, but it is not a crime. And it took some convincing for him to, to get to that way of thinking. So, we did have a bit of a generation gap and, and I mean I was his first, his first child and it is challenging one I am so sorry dad, rest in peace. SM: 15:20 Well, I am going right now to your undergraduate school. Why did you pick Kent State to go there as your undergraduate? JL: 15:28 Well-well, I will finish my I finished my, my monologue about the different schools I attended. And I will tell you the colleges I applied to. When I was a junior in high school, I started to apply to colleges. And I applied to Gonzaga University in Spokane. Xavier University in Cincinnati, St. Louis, Washington University in St. Louis, Notre Dame in South Bend, and Kent State, all of them being Catholic schools, except for Kansas State. And I had good SAT scores, I was accepted to all of them. But I could not afford them because I was paying my own way and working full time and going to school full time. So, I actually applied for and received a partial award to go to Notre Dame from the Rocco foundation in Canton, Ohio, but it was still not within my means to attend Notre Dame. So, I wound up going to State University, Kent State, which in those days was unbelievably affordable, unbelievably affordable. SM: 16:45 Could you describe your college years, I am going to certainly get into the May 4th situation? JL: 16:52 Yeah. SM: 16:52 -but could you describe your college years at Kent State both before and after, I do not know how to say this, before and after April 30th, to May 4th, 1970? JL: 17:06 Oh, yeah. Well, for me that is a college year. [laughs] SM: 17:11 Yeah. JL: 17:12 I started school in September of (19)69 at Kent State, and that was a month after Woodstock. And you know, it was a few months before the assassination of Black Panthers in the apartment in Chicago. It was after the Beatles broke up but so going to, I got into the dormitory, Johnson Hall. And it was, as I said, I was the oldest child in my family. And so, I have done my share of babysitting and kid watching and it was the ultimate freedom to be free from my-my parents' home not that they were ever, it was ever a bad home. But I had to, you know time to come and go at the times I chose and of course, I had to do my own laundry. But I had a meal plan and two roommates in the dorm room where I lived and I was just really free to experiment with life and learning. And I loved learning. I was taking biology and French and anthropology and English in lots of different, you know, curious, and sociology was my major. And I just loved learning but I also loved freedom so that in the spring of spring of (19)70, in March, my friend and I hitchhiked around the East Coast, we-we hitchhiked down to see his cousin in Kentucky and his cousin was on spring break. So, we went on down to Georgia. We hitchhiked you know, back and forth and different places and visiting friends in Ohio and elsewhere. And it was just an enormous, enormous glory of freedom. And the, one of the things I remember most is walking around the campus that fall and the music coming out of the windows- people you know, were free now from their parents' strictures of "Turn that thing down" like I was. And then there was there was high volume music coming out of every dorm window. It was like, it was like the new bands were Led Zeppelin, Crosby, Stills and Nash, you know, McCartney's solo album, the Dead, the Stones, you know, the Beatles, a whole anthology, it was amazing. I mean, and just think, you know, to think the first time you heard Led Zeppelin blasting out of a dorm room window as you walked along, you know, it was just-just to transportive to a whole different, you know, like, this is our time now. SM: 19:54 Yes. JL: 19:55 Rock and roll was blasting and it was it was exciting. It was very exciting. I, you know, I did, I had tried smoking a little weed and taking a little psychedelic and, and, you know, that was, that was also added a twist of interest to things and drinking, you know, drinking the three-two beer that was available [crosstalk]. Geez. So, there was lots, of lots of new things, you know, and then the relationships with, with both guys and girls. I was making friends from with people from all over the country, meeting beautiful girls from all over the, over the country. And, you know, it was just a vibrant, exciting time. And it seemed very hopeful and the future was full of prospects. Because, you know, if you had a college degree in the (19)70s, you were going to get a job somewhere and hopefully doing something you liked. And I was exploring different, different courses. And I really liked anthropology. But mostly, like I said, my major was pre-professional social work. I wanted to do something to change the world for the better. I guess that was my goal. SM: 21:13 Yeah, you said when you when you look at Kansas State when you first got there, did you think that was more of a tranquil campus before (19)70 or did you sense that it was an activist campus from the get go? JL: 21:26 I knew that there had been some political activity there. But that was not really what the focus was on. In fact, I remember very clearly my, my freshman orientation the summer before I went to school there, they, they were quick, quick to point out that there were 28 bars in five blocks. And that there was live music, live music almost every night and every weekend and [inaudible] and the ratio of girls to boys at Kent State was two to one. And people came from all over northeastern Ohio for the nightlife scenes on the weekends. I mean, the James Gang, Joe Walsh was the house band- SM: 22:05 Oh yeah. JL: 22:06 -and local bars and, and there was other, you know, musicians would come through Kent and have shown there that were fantastic. So, the activism: was not the first thing that that that anyone thought of at that time. Although I really had not been tuned in to some of the Black United Students activities- SM: 22:26 Right. JL: 22:26 -and the occupation of the music and speech. I did not. I maybe had read about it, but did not focus in on it so much. SM: 22:34 You know, it is interesting, because the history books I have written this for a years when they talk about the tragedy, I as we all say, as they all need to say, the murderers at Kent State and-and- JL: 22:47 Yeah, absolutely. SM: 22:47 -so, I have been corrected to make sure that not the tragedy, more the murderers at Kent State. But the word on the street and on many of the history books that have been written is why did this happen, why did this tragedy happen of all places at Kent State? Why not Ohio State, why not Ohio University, which was at the time I worked there. Was one of the most liberal campuses, where massive protests were taking place or a place like Columbia, or Berkeley or even Harvard or Wisconsin, but four were killed at Kent State and the perception was in the media coverage is this tranquil campus in the Midwest. JL: 23:28 Yeah. SM: 23:28 You know, that it happened there so now the war came home to America. Your just, your thoughts on that? JL: 23:36 Well, that is, that is kind of a hard to analyze, given what happened there after all, but there was a real town and gown division in I think, a lot of college towns and that was certainly true at Kent, we had, you know, old time farmers, farmland all around the town and, and there was definitely a difference in opinion between the people who lived in Canton, families had lived there for a long time and the students who had come from all over the northeastern United States to attend there. But I think that one source for good background is Tom Grace's book which talked about the history of Northeastern Ohio and he- SM: 24:23 Yes. JL: 24:23 -he reminds us of some things we kind of forgot about. My grandfather who came from Slovakia, got a job in Republic steel mills and worked his whole life I mean, in the steel mills as a union steel worker and Akron had both Goodrich and Goodyear Tire and Rubber, the rubber capital of the world and in Pittsburgh and Youngstown all had steel mills and steel manufacturing plants. And it was it was a place where there was, there were many working people who had been organized into unions and who had learned how to-to speak for their own rights and stand up to the to the bosses and ask for fair wages. And so, there was a background of political activity. It was not exactly antiwar activity, and it was not necessarily student activity. But this area was booming, it was just going through a huge, a huge growth, you know, of employment and workers and families rising from rising from the lowest level of working class up into some kind of middle-class comfort, buying homes in the suburbs. And-and I think, you know, I do not know if that explains anything, but what the situation was very dynamic there. SM: 25:45 Yeah, I have read that book. And, and I will be, I will be interviewing him as well, in the next couple of weeks. JL: 25:52 Good, [crosstalk] SM: 25:52 Because he has agreed to be interviewed. He is very busy, I think helping with Alan's archives and other and other things and speaking, and he is a professor, so he has got a lot on his on his table. JL: 26:04 Yes, he does. SM: 26:04 Yeah, you know, the whole thing of what created the tension, you were not easy to describe some of the things there because the town gown relations are terrible, even at the school that I went to here in Binghamton, New York. It was terrible. And that, what would you say, created the tension at Kent State leading up to Nixon's speech on April 30th, of (19)70? Because as a nation, not only at Kent State, but Ohio State where I went to grad school, I know what happened on that campus. The campuses erupted after that speech. Did you hear this speech? JL: 26:42 Yes, I well, I did not actually hear it. I read about it on a ticker tape machine at Taylor Hall on Kent State campus. I do not know, you probably know what a ticker tape machine is. SM: 26:54 Yes. JL: 26:54 Some folks, may not [laughter] and, and I read it as it was news that night, April 30th, 11 or something that night, I was walking around with my girlfriend and we were in Taylor Hall. And read that news there for the you know, when it was still hot off the presses. And then you know, saw the follow up on the in the TV evening news and news the next day. And the reaction around the country of the expansion of the war where Nixon, I blamed President Nixon and Governor Rhodes for the murders at Kent State because they set the scene. Nixon said that he would bring us together and had a secret plan to end the war and he was just lying to get elected and to hold on to power and the same thing was happening with Governor, Governor Rhodes who after the RTC building was burned, he made a huge, huge speech, inflammatory speech with the with the guard already present on the on the university campus, about the terrible terrorists who were organized and behind this, which was hyperbolic to say the least. He was really giving the-the antiwar movement a lot more credibility than it deserved at the time for their organization, their ability to create violent resistance and, and I think they painted a picture that was far more dire than was necessary at the time and resulted in the overreaction, and murder and wounding of students at Kent State and other places, in Jackson State around the country. SM: 28:39 In your own words, because it is very important that that I do interview all the people that are still alive that were wounded at Kent State, I am actually going to be interviewing a person who was a professor at Westchester who was a student at Kent State and she was witnessing everything from her residence hall right next to the, where the it all happened. But when you, if you could describe in your own words, you. What you were doing between the 30th of April and May 5th, the day after the tra- the killings happened, just in your own words. What you saw, witnessed, experienced, were involved in, people students you spoke to, what, how did all those students come to that, the green by the bell? Because people that are going to be hearing your interview are people that are not even alive yet. They are going to be studying and doing your research on the (19)60s and Kent State is a watershed event in that era. JL: 29:50 Well, on the Commons at Kent State there is what they called the victory bell which was supposed to be used for athletic victories but it was more commonly in those days used to-to call crowds together for assemblies. And-and so for the period that you are talking about from the time of the Cambodian incursion, until May 5th, I was not present for Friday demonstration of burying the Constitution because they said Nixon had killed the Constitution. I did not witness that but I read about it in the campus paper later. And they said that they were planning a follow up demonstration for Monday afternoon. And so, I read about that, but had not really thought much more than that about it. And Saturday, I also watched from my dorm room, which is Johnson Hall, which is immediately adjacent to the commons and Taylor Hall and the pagoda. And I watched as some, crowd assembled around the ROTC building, which there had been rumors that it would be targeted because of the presence on campus as a as a, you know, as a supporter of the war, of the war in Vietnam. And so, I went outside of my dorm and watched from the grass in front of the dorm, from a distance as some people kind of attempted to set the building on fire, unsuccessfully, several times. And they threw a safety flare on the roof and it rolled off without doing anything and they broke a window and, and lit drapes on fire and it flamed up and burned out. And then somebody in the front of the crowd- I do not know who, it was dark, and I did not know people. Somebody said, "Let us go get some more supporters." And so, the crowd marched around the whole campus, which is pretty large. And so that took, you know, 45 minutes or so. And we, I followed along behind the crowd. And we marched around the campus to a couple of the other dormitories asking people to join us and then forward to the front of the campus, past the president of the university's house, which was a well-guarded by people at the driveway and out onto the highway that connected Ravenna and Kent, and actually stopped and stopped traffic and people in the front of the crowd were blocking traffic with, they pull like construction equipment out onto the road and blocked traffic and compressors and trailers and stuff. And then people will shortly behind them would move them back out of the way. It was kind of like we do not want to really cause that much disruption. And I followed along behind and watched this happen until we got back to the front of the campus and we started to turn and go back towards my dormitory basically, which is back towards the ROTC building. And as we turned and headed back onto campus, that is when the Ohio National Guard arrived from the east, from Ravenna in trucks and jeeps and-and armored personnel carriers. So, they came rolling down the highway. And so, I turned in hightailed it back to my dormitory. And when I got there, that building was fully engulfed in flames, which I always thought was suspicious since it seemed like the attempts to ignite it previously had been unsuccessful. So, the so I went to my dorm and my-my dorm window faced the other ways. So, I went across the hall, to my friend Tom's room, and we watched out his window as the ROTC building went up in flames and burned and, and I know it is super cliché, but I have to say that while this was happening, the radio station from Cleveland, I think it was WMS was playing for what it is worth, you know, "Something is Happening Here." SM: 34:07 Wow. JL: 34:07 This building is just flaming up and I am thinking, wow, what-what the hell you know. And so, the next day, Sunday there was, the guards who had arrived on campus that night, Saturday after the building was burned. 900 members of the Ohio National Guard were bivouacked on the Kent State campus. And they were positioned in front of the different administration buildings and different places around campus. But it was a fairly nice spring morning in northeastern Ohio, it can be pretty that time of year and-and so students and Co-eds and people were walking around having conversations with the guardsmen who were in you know, their-their steel helmets with-with their rifles and bayonets fixed on the end. And it was just a very, very bizarre to be occupied by your own army, is how it felt and-and it was very much a feeling of the war has come home. You know here-here you are at school and here are these people ready for war and so-so Sunday was just a real mix of strange feelings until the governor came to the came to the firehouse in Kent and made the most inflammatory speech, banged his fist on the table, talking about the worst people in American history of being present here, these organized student rebels and-and he gave, like I say he gave the antiwar organization a lot more credit than I thought it deserved for being effective and organized and bloodthirsty. It was not, there was not any of the way he described it that way. But I think that the guardsmen were inspired by his hatred. And there was also a rip came down that there would be no assemblies allowed of four or more people. And that the National Guard will be breaking up any assemblies of groups of people. But they also said that Monday there would be classes as usual. So, you have quite an irony there when you are having students go to classes and guardsmen breaking up you know, groups of four. Well, Sunday I, I was on, I stayed in the dorm area. But friends of mine went down to protest against the curfew. And it was a 10 o'clock curfew in the streets of Kent and 11 o'clock on the campus if I am not mistaken. And some friends of mine went to go talk to the university president and the mayor about lifting the curfew so that we could you know, go about our schooling business. And nobody ever came to talk to them, although they were promised that they would, they just sat down in the street and said, you know, wait here, we will get them to speak to you which they never did come but after the curfew time arrived, the National Guard who had surrounded these demonstrators who are peacefully sitting in the street and singing songs of the era, at a curfew time, they surrounded them and started lobbing tear gas into the group. And so, there was pandemonium, I am told and students ran and some were bayonetted that night and others were chased and beaten. And it was from my view at the dorm, it was one of the scariest sights I have seen where there were helicopters, three helicopters with search lights, hovering overhead and [crosstalk] tear gas on the campus with platoons of guardsmen shoulder to shoulder, bayonets at the ready, herding students into dormitories because they were out past curfew. And I spoke later that night with my-my resident counselor Lou, who said that he had witnessed, he was trying to conduct students to come in the end of our, of our dorm and escape the guardsmen, and they can go through the building and out the other way to their dorms. And as he got the last student, in the guardsmen behind him lunged with his bayonet and he, Luke pulled the door shut on the guy's knife, as he lunged to try and get the students and so it was a very ugly scene. SM: 38:34 Wow. JL: 38:35 And he and I stayed up talking that night for a while and discussed whether or not those guns would be loaded with live ammunition. And we have kind of concluded there was really no need for them to be loaded with live ammunition. And I do not know if we suggested they had blanks, or why we would think that but we were pretty sure there was no need for live ammunition in those guns. But we also said it was hard to tell who was wearing the white hats and who was wearing the black hats because while students were throwing things out their windows at the dorms at the guardsmen, the guardsmen were also throwing rocks at the students' windows in the dormitories and-and it was it was just real ugly, it was a real ugly scene that night. So, Monday was classes as usual, with guardsmen all along the burned-out ashes of ROTC building. And I went to a couple of classes actually and the sociology professors and two messages one was the "Keep safe, stay low and stay out of sight" and the other was, "It is a participatory democracy and if you want your voice heard you need to get out there and do it" and I, I kind of took a second tack I wanted to support the-the protest, protesting the presence of an invasion and occupation of our campus by- SM: 39:56 Yes. JL: 39:56 -the National Guard. But I wanted to do it in a peaceful way, you know, the way Martin Luther King showed us and the way Mahatma Gandhi showed us that, you know, collective action peaceably with a large number of people can get can get results. And so, I was headed for, I kind of think of it now as a, I was headed for some kind of street theater demonstration, but the National Guard were coming to war. And so, this was not going to be a good, good, good mix. And then, so I watched, I watched the National Guard, you know, tried to tell the students to disperse. And they said, "Students this is illegal assembly, return to your dormitories." And they said that a few times with more cat calls and more upraised fingers, and-and finally, when the students did not disperse upon the command, they fired tear gas into the crowd, from far distance with like, like, like a grenade launch modified rifles that would shoot across 100 yards. And the wind was such that it was not very effective. So, students could get wet cloths over their mouths, pick up the tear gas canisters and throw them back. And it was it was a back and forth that seemed almost theatrical, at this point, without a sense of doom, which was a mistake on my part, definitely a mistake. And so, when that did not disperse the crowd, they moved forward with their tear gas masks and helmets and bayonets at the ready and split the crowd up that way. And so, I of course, retreated between Taylor Hall and Johnson Hall, which is my dorm. I mean, I was never more than 50 yards from my room actually. I retreated between the two buildings and off to one side and the guardsmen followed up the hill and down on the other side onto the practice football field. And then myself and the students near me reassembled on the hilltop by Taylor Hall overlooking the guardsmen and then watched them take a kneel, and aim their weapons at a vocal part of the crowd, towards the Prentice Hall parking lot where Alan Canfora was with his black flag. And where other activists were yelling at them, and some people threw gravel at them. You know, there was a big deal about throwing rocks, well, they were not rocks, they were gravel, and no guardsmen were injured. But I think it irritated the guardsmen. And that was the part of the crowd where most of the dead were later on. And so, after they kneeled and aimed for a while, a small group of guardsmen gathered in the middle of the field, and then they headed back up the hill the way they had come. And so, what this meant was, they turned and walked directly towards me because of where I had moved to, after they passed by. And so, I of course, moved out of the way again, but I was very near to them. And I could see them jostling, hear their equipment, kind of rattling as it came up the hill. And they kept looking hard back over their right shoulders, which was back in the Prentice Hall parking lot area. And I have always suspected that they were picking targets at this point. And so, when they got to the top of the hill, they were very close to me, kind of right in front of me. And the first three riflemen, turned and leveled their rifles in my direction, as they had knelt and aimed previously down below. And so, I thought this was, again, a gesture of, you know, of a threatening gesture. And so, I gesture back at that time with my middle finger, my right hand up raised, and they had their guns aimed at me. And, you know, I thought it was kind of a theatrical stand up as I, as I said, I came, I came ready for street theater, but they came ready for war. And so, it was not too long, a few seconds passed. And then I saw the ground and I heard, started hearing sounds popping, saw the ground in front of me turn up and I realized that there was actual live ammo in those guns. And simultaneously to that thought I was shot. The bullet hit my right hip, and threw me to the ground where I collapsed on the ground on my back. And I learned later that a second person shot me after I had been on the ground through the lower left leg. And so, as I lay on the ground, there was 13 seconds of solid gunfire. And then it stopped and there was just a heartbeat of unbelievable silence. Before people started screaming about what had happened and what they had just seen. I was laying there and a person, persons came up to me, a person came up to my left. And it turned out to be a brother of a high school classmate of mine. He saw my ID and put it back in my pocket. And then I asked him how bad the wound was. And he said, I think it is just a flesh wound. Because he had seen the exit wound in my left jeans pocket where the bullet exited. I had an entry wound, I had an entry wound to my right front pocket like where your coin change pocket is in your jeans, that was the size of a nickel. And I had an exit wound on my left rear jeans pocket the size of a Coke can. SM: 45:48 Wow. JL: 45:49 And when he saw he said it was a flesh wound, I was relieved, although there, that was not really true. I could not get up, and I could not, I could not move. And then a girl came from my right side and held my hand and I just squeezed the heck out of that girl's hand and she stayed with me the whole time until the ambulances came and loaded two of us into an ambulance. I was in an ambulance with John Cleary. John was shot through the lungs, apparently, and he was in terrible agony. It was a very, very difficult ride to ambulance, we, we both were very uncomfortable, I thought I was going to die. I said, as I said, you know, all the Catholic training that I had, I said a good act of contrition, asking God to forgive me for my sins. And, and I kind of thought, you know, I am only 18 I really have not committed, done too many things wrong. But just in case. Just in case, I said that prayer and got into the ambulance, got over to the hospital. And amazingly, I was semi-conscious this whole time. Even seeing high school classmates come up to the ambulance window and give me that high wave. But when I got to the hospital, the last thing, I remember, and it is comical. I love my mom and she was very strict with eight kids, you got to be strict. I got to the hospital, they said we were going to have to cut off your clothes. And I remember thinking to myself, my very last thought was, Mom was not going to like that. And then I went into, went into surgery for six hours and got several pints of blood. Went the intensive care for, unit for a week or so, the first couple of days I was 50/50 live or die I got the last rites night. Some of my friends from high school came and visited me I do not know somehow, they found me and I do not remember that but in our 50th reunion last in 2020, became an, retold me the story and it was it was very moving to hear from these seventy-year-old people about what moved them most of them were 18 and it was very touching. And I was in the hospital with Dean and John Cleary, we were all tall, I was the shortest one at 6'3" so our feet stuck out of the ends of the ICU beds. And we got to [inaudible] and friends forever. Then after a three weeks and a day, I got out of the hospital and went back to my parents’ home in Maslen and shortly thereafter read an article in the newspaper, the local Maslen evening independent which said that it had a story about the Kent State shootings and I thought well this this should be interesting so I read it and it said that students attacked guardsmen with bricks and bottles and overturned cars. And none of that was true. Not a word of that was true. And I thought, oh my god, you know my parents’ friends my neighbors here in Maslin. They think that is what is real? So-so for me the takeaway was you know, you cannot believe the media or the government. When it suits them, they are going to lie? So, I-I recovered at home, I did not really have too many long-lasting injuries although I do have to say that I have had my right hip replaced three times which is right near the in the entry wound of that 30-caliber rifle bullet. There has been no actual medical connection made between it but I suspected that it is connected. And then the story goes on, trying to get, trying to get accountability with Arthur Krause and the parents of those four kids dead. We tried to get accountability. And, and, and that was a tough climb because the first, the first legal gathering was the Portage County grand jury which indicted 25 students and professors and no guardsmen. In fact, I was, I was shot twice, and then I was arrested. I was indicted for fourth degree riot by the Portage County grand jury and later the charges were dropped for lack of evidence, but it gave me an understanding of what some people in America experience where they were victims of what was called Law Enforcement crime, and then they were charged with the crime themselves. So, I have a deep sympathy for, you know, for Breonna Taylor and- SM: 49:30 Yeah. Yes. JL: 51:09 -Michael Brown, you know, George Floyd, because to me, this is this is a story I have had a deep insight into. SM: 51:19 When, I want to mention the bond, did you know any of the people that were wounded with you or killed before this this murder? JL: 51:34 I did not, I did not know anyone. The only person I had a passing acquaintance with-with was Alison Krauss. Because she was the girlfriend of my mailbox partner in my dorm. Barry Levine, our-our names were alphabetical [audio cuts] box at the dorm. And so, I would see Allison and Barry almost every day and-and what I will say about Allison is she was attractive in every way. Vivacious, and smart and beautiful and involved and just really, really struck me as a beautiful person. But I did not know any others until we got together for different legal purposes years later. SM: 52:24 Can you describe the, I guess the one thing, I have learned something from this interview? I know you were wounded. I did not know the seriousness of your wounds. As you go over the years, Joe, have you, have you had any flashbacks, do you had on that day? How has your mental and physical health been over the years? JL: 52:49 You know, I do not really have flashbacks, like nightmares. I and I do not know, I have spoken with ant-war vets over the years a number of times. And a couple of times they pointed at me and said "PTSD!" because they've seen me cry when I talk about the incident. And-and of course I have I have huge reservoirs of emotion for the sorrow that I feel. Now that I am a parent and a grandparent for those families who lost, Allison and Jeff, Sandy and Bill that day, for no good reason. They did not do anything wrong. And-and so that that, to me is heartbreaking. But I do have, you know, very close bonds with the other families, the other eight guys who were wounded- well there was only, I think six of us left now but yeah, so I do not. As far as physical results, I think that my problems with my right hip may be related to my injuries there. And mentally, like I said, like, I do not believe the government or the media. SM: 54:09 Right. JL: 54:10 But I am not alone in that respect. I know. SM: 54:14 When you, I want to flash back now. Now, obviously you went back to school, when did you go back to school to continue your education and when did you graduate? JL: 54:28 I went back to school, and I think it was the winter of (19)71. But I never finished, I left. I was I was trying to go to school full time and work full time. I was under, under indictment waiting for trial. And I was self-medicating. And so, it was not a good, was not a good mix. It was not successful for me I-I managed to stay in school and work until the summer of (19)72. And so that was really just like a couple quarters more. And then I-I moved from Kent to Oregon where I am now. SM: 55:17 Did you realize, you probably did the-the massive coverage of this of the murders that took place the following week, you and I- we were talking about the impact it has had on the people who were there, the students that were alive at Kent at that time, the families and so forth. Are you aware of the impact that this event had on college students and people all over the country like yours truly? The tragedy-? JL: 55:48 Yes-yes, yes. The largest student strike in American history. And, and I know, and I know that it was a formidable time, I mean, you know, it to me, to me, of course, is much more personal. But frequently in historical movies or, or stories, or even just, you know, magazine articles, the Kent State shooting comes up as a pivotal reflection of the time and the desperation and just the, the peak of resistance to the war. SM: 56:23 A lot of people that have written, that have written about this event, and then actually in books, too, that said that, when the tragedies at Kent State and Jackson State hit, that, then the War at Vietnam now came home to Middle America. JL: 56:41 Right. SM: 56:42 And that the war was going to end because of it. The a, and because there was still at that time, a lot of people that supported the war. And Nixon always had his group that, you know that, you know that they were supporting him. But it is what happened at Kent State, it just had a tremendous impact way beyond, it changed careers. And one of the things I had had to talk with Alan about because he came, and I had real good long conversations with him. And he knew I went into higher education because of the tragedy. I wanted to do my small part, as a college administrator to make sure this never happened again on a university campus. And I am saying this now for Alan, Alan. All the years that he talked when he came to West Chester University to speak, one of his ultimate goals was to get truth and justice for those who, you know, suffered because of this, but also to make sure this kind of an event never again, ever happens on a university campus. A free speech, protest, where students died expressing their free speech. So, it was- JL: 56:59 Yeah-yeah. SM: 58:00 -it is there is so-so much here. And, and, of course, you know, what Alan did all throughout the years to make sure that we never forget it as well. When you as a, as a young person, I want to question some of the things that you have already brought up because of what happened at Kent State, the qualities of distrust toward government, distrust toward the system, distrust toward leaders. There was a slogan back in the (19)60s that, that the boomers that were involved in activist in the antiwar movement, and the impact that it had on them was that they did not trust leaders. And-and, and we were talking all leaders. University presidents, politicians, ministers, rabbis, anyone in a position of leadership could not be trusted. Did that affect you that way? JL: 59:01 You know, to me, that is an extreme point of view, and I try to be rational. And so to me, that would be like, I call it jumping to confusions and I, I have respect for leadership, but I have to understand that they are, they are working for the common good and not for personal, you know, financial or power dictates that-that just, they are trying to keep maintain their power, their influence, and, and so I do not, I would not say that I take that kind of a broad brush with all leadership. I would, I would evaluate, I would evaluate the things that a leader does and says and judged by their actions. It is more than their words. But the blanket statement that I made is true. I distrust media and government. The government lied to us about Vietnam and the media lies to us constantly about different things. But I would not say that I challenged all leadership, I was distrustful. And I always looked for like, what is the reason someone would want us to believe this way, I was questioning, I was questioning but I was not completely full of distrust for all leaders. I would not say. SM: 1:00:25 This is important question, Joe, that I want to ask, what are the lessons of Kent State for not only, for future generations of college students? What is the lesson you want them to know? Not only from college students, that are, young people that are alive today that are yet born, because through research and scholarship at our center, we are hoping that we will find people who were going to study the (19)60s and early (19)70s, get their PhD in this area and teach the (19)60s the way it should be taught, from all points of view, conservative liberal and everything in between. What are what do you feel were the lessons of Kent State that you want to pass on to future generations? JL: 1:01:13 I just think that there is, there is hope when-when people recognize their common ground. And I still believe in nonviolent resistance. I believe in direct action using nonviolent methods. Although it is a hard, hard slog, sometimes you get where you are going. I do not believe you can fight violence with violence, I think we need to be, we need to be peaceful and rational and, and respectful of each other, even especially those who disagree with. And it is hard. That is a, that is a hard, hard assignment. But that is what I tried to do. And as far as the overall lessons from Kent State, I-I hope that we have learned that we have to allow for dissent. We should not be attacking people who do not agree with government policies, we should be, you know, I actually, you know, remember the Nixon administration was all talking about law and order. Where most of those people were convicted felons, in the Nixon administration, and protesters at Kent State did not, you know, as far as I know, did not break any laws. I mean, we were peacefully protesting we, we did not have weapons, we did not assault people, we did not damage property that day. And so, to me, we need to have room in our, in our society, for disagreement, for peaceful disagreement. And not to quickly jump to conclusions. Like I know, I have some people I know in northwestern Oregon, who, who assume that since you know, you are kind of a lefty liberal that that you should be destroyed. SM: 1:03:05 Right. JL: 1:03:05 I think there should be real tolerance for-for both of us to exist in the same in the same geographic location with opposing points of view. SM: 1:03:15 It is amazing. Yeah, that is what you said is one of the issues in America today. JL: 1:03:20 Yeah. SM: 1:03:22 You know, not listening to other points of view. I mean, it is my way or the highway, it very good observations. I want to be clear on this. Who were the villains of Kent State and who were the heroes? JL: 1:03:39 I am not sure about the heroes. I know. The villains are Nixon and Rhodes. The heroes are the heroes are Glenn Frank, who begged students after the shooting to not confront guardsmen a second time because the guards said they would shoot again, if needed. The heroes are Glenn Frank who saved lives by doing that that day. And those-those people who are brave enough to speak the truth about Kent State, Alan Canfora and Dean Kahler, they have done enormous work by staying in the area whereas I, in (19)72, man I was gone, I am out of there. But they stayed and confronted it. And I mean, Dean, it is escapable, it is a conversation he could not avoid having. And so, they are the heroes for continuing to tell the truth about what happened that day and, and trying to avoid a recurrence of that and-and I think anyone who stands up to, stands up for the rule of law. I mean, because Nixon said he was the law and order people but really Law and Order would not have allowed the shootings at Kent State to happen in our civil trial they talked about the even the Army's rules of engagement do not allow people to turn on fire on-on agitators or protesters. The designation as the commander will point out specific targets for individual snipers to shoot at, it is not turn and fire when you when you feel like and, and the fact that the guardsmen all said they were afraid for their lives after being sequestered for 30 days is to me very questionable. SM: 1:04:19 Right. Beyond Kent State, which is the obvious answer to this question, but is there another specific watershed event that was really important in your life? Either an event or happening or a death? JL: 1:05:40 Yeah, there have been. My first wife was a paralegal assistant with the Kent State Trial, and I fell in love with her when I first saw her, she died of cancer in (19)91, after we were married 15 years together. But my first, my first inclination to, to answer is, when I was eight, my little brother, who was hydrocephalic, who had water on the brain, died when he was five. And the moment of, and my grandma was babysitting me because my mom and dad and nur- and aunt who was a nurse, said they were taking Peter to the doctor. And so, grandma was babysitting me that night, and I stayed up later than I was ever allowed too before. But at a certain point, a certain moment in time, I burst into tears. And I realized that that was the moment my brother died. And so, to me, the most important lesson in life I have ever learned is that we are all connected. We are all brothers connected in life through a way that we do not understand. And-and so this is carried with me from that day on. And it is, it is hard, not too hard not to respect people who you are related to. And so, I tried to, I tried to live my life with that lesson in mind. Lately, lately, political events, the-the Standing Rock protest was very important, I think, for people to stop the prostitution of our land for the benefit of profiteers. And the protection of our drinking water, I have, my career, my working career, I am retired now as of (20)13. But in my adult life, I have spent 20 years from (19)80 to (20)00, as a union president and shop steward for our public works employee’s union for the city where I live. And then from (20)00 to (20)16, I spent four, four terms on the local school board- SM: 1:07:57 Oh. JL: 1:07:58 -administering, administering to the school districts needs from kind of a management point of view. So, to me, working people are where it is at, they are the people who make our country strong and good. And we need to respect them and give them, acknowledge the work that they do and help them however we can to be successful and happy. SM: 1:08:19 That is really great, Joe, because that is giving back. It is giving back- JL: 1:08:26 Well, when I got here to Northwestern Oregon, I was damaged, I was very damaged goods. And so, the people here and they, that natural beauty, helped me to recover. And so, I feel like I owe it to my community to give back and that is, that is exactly my intention is I love it here. And I want the folks to know that I will do what I can to make it a better place. SM: 1:08:49 It is amazing, because that is what Alan did all his life was kind of is giving back- JL: 1:08:53 Most of the guys- SM: 1:08:54 Yeah, and Dean is all about that. JL: 1:08:58 Most of the guys are really nice guys, you know that? SM: 1:09:01 Yes. JL: 1:09:01 I sometimes wonder how can the, how can shooters find nine nicer guys? I mean, it is I guess there is something humbling about being shot too being, but-but yeah, I am really I am really proud to have acquaintance of mine, I call them my blood brothers. And we, we are connected in a way no one else really wants to be or can be. And so, for me that recovery, the reunions are bittersweet. They are horribly sad and-and wonderfully warm and, and welcoming because when I get together with these folks, and our supporters, our families and friends, it is just an amazing time. SM: 1:09:50 Well, I know at one of the Kent State remembrances a few years back, you and another person who passed away were together. JL: 1:09:59 Oh, Jim Russel. SM: 1:09:59 Yeah Jim Russell and I am, I do not know if you remember, I took your pictures and I gave the pictures to I think Alan because they were real good close up shots. You were sitting at a panel in the auditorium there and they came out really great. And so, and I remember you were very close to him, and then the tragedy that he passed away. JL: 1:10:20 Yeah, I convinced him to move to Oregon after our civil trial. He, he kept me sane during the civil trial, because he was a genius. He was, he had multifarious interests. And he was he was actually deeply involved in all of them. Um, and I was, I had moved to the forested hills outside of our little town in (19)72. So, in the (19)75 trial, when we were all going back to Cleveland for 14 weeks in the summer, for uh, four days a week of trial. Um, I was just out of my element as the press cameras and interviewers would follow us around the street. I was really out of my element coming from the woods, where I had been when Jim-Jim just talked to me. And he talked and he talked and he talked because he [laughs], he had all these interests. And he kept me from-from freaking out, really. And so, I feel like he saved my, saved my uh, sanity. And uh, so we became close. And then he- I invited him to move to Oregon when I came back home. And uh, after 25 years went by the local Oregon, Oregonian had an article about us, the 25th, you know, anniversary of the Kent State shootings. And after that, two professors and teachers started inviting us to come to their classes. And we were, we were very reluctant activists, Jim, especially, very reluctant. But what we found was that by telling the truth of our story, that- it kind of was cathartic, that it lightened the load on our hearts. Although I do feel it was obvious from observation that it was causing some sorrow for the students who heard us talk about the truth about Kent State. And so, we bonded that way for years. We did that at colleges and high schools around Oregon until (20)07 when Jim had a heart attack, and as he would have, as he would have designed it, had a heart attack and died in his wife's arms. At his home in Rainier, Oregon. It was a heart heartbreaking [inaudible], for me to think about him being gone, we- we had, an extremely close relationship. In many ways we were so different that we were like, uh, two poles of a magnet. And it just drew us together, we could tell the Kent State story because we had each been at different places at different times, in a way that was so thorough, and uh, we were just like, kind of walk into each other's uh, monologues smoothlessly, smoothly. And uh, and it was it was just a it was a very powerful, very powerful sort of when we told it together. SM: 1:13:21 Well, he is, he is another one of those, of the nine. One of the good guys and why, [crosstalk]. I had- Oh man, he, was also, worked for the city- [laughs] I-I want to mention the Vietnam Memorial, you know, the whole thing happened in 1982. When Vietnam veterans came back, they were treated pretty poorly and, [crosstalk] and really poorly. No, not by me either. But, then in 1982, the wall opened and everything's changed. Now the question I really want to ask you, Jan Scruggs wrote that historic book, "The Healing of a Nation." And of course, he, he wanted to make the Vietnam Memorial, a nonpolitical entity, as a remembrance for the 58 plus 1000 who died, and are, certainly all Vietnam veterans who have served and their families. The question I want to ask you is, the Vietnam Memorial has done a great job in terms of healing amongst the veterans themselves and their families and now many, men, have seems like more Vietnam veterans are dying faster than even the World War Two veterans died from post-traumatic stress disorder but certainly Agent Orange and cancer and everything. I remember asking this to three United States senators. I asked this to Senator Eugene McCarthy, I asked this to George McGovern, and I asked this to Gaylord Nelson and it was Gaylord Nelson's response, which was the best one. But the question is, is it possible to heal, as a nation, from a war that tore us so much apart? [silence] Are you still there? JL: 1:13:30 He was an engineer, he was, he was into the detail of [chuckles] of the radius of curbs and shit like [laughter], are you kidding me? I mean, I think, he, he annoyed the hell out of me and I think I have amused the hell out of him so, [inaudible]. So, it was the perfect relationship. SM: 1:13:31 Yep. JL: 1:13:49 You are breaking up, Steven. Yeah, I-I kind of missed the first part. SM: 1:15:13 Is it, is it possible to heal, have-have we healed, as a nation from the Vietnam War? JL: 1:15:38 Oh, good question. Um, [coughs] that is a good question. I-I do not know. I-I do not know would say we have made attempts to heal, I-I, I-I do think of one thing that we have not talked about, that is a very important element to response to the war in Vietnam was the Veterans for Peace, the antiwar, that is actually where leaders, even more so than the student antiwar groups, in opposing the war in Vietnam. And I think without them, we would not have gotten to the memorial into the place where we are now. [crosstalk] But, I-I think there is, I think there is still existing divisions that go back to that time. And I am not so sure that they are only about the war, they may also be about the philosophy of governance, the approach to authority, the relationship that men have with their fathers [laughs]. SM: 1:16:37 Right. JL: 1:16:38 You know, I-I think we should have learned to be more forgiving and more compassionate, but I am not sure that all of us have. [crosstalk] The other thing I would add, as you talk about the fifty-eight thousand, lives that were sacrificed, we also have to remember the 3 million- SM: 1:16:57 You are right. JL: 1:16:58 -Asians who, SM: 1:16:58 Yes. Mhm. Right. Yeah, I-. Mhm. Yes, you are darn right [crosstalk]. Yes. Yes. Because, when you go down to the Vietnam Memorial, and um, you know, it is not only seeing the faces of those who-who are no longer with us who served their nation, but it is also the 3 million who died, the Vietnamese themselves. I-I know that from working in a university and advising the Asian American organization, of which most of them were Vietnamese students, whose parents were both people and survived, on the boats to go to certain islands. And then of course, they ended up meeting, they fell in love. And a lot of the Vietnamese have done very well in this nation. And, but a lot of them are from the boat people that survived that war, just survived. And, I know President Bush in 1989, you may remember this, said "The Vietnam syndrome is over." Remember when he said that? And uh, and-and I said, he has, he has got to be kidding me. Because it kind of gets into what they call, "The culture wars." And the culture wars from the (19)60s are still happening right now in the year 2021. JL: 1:16:59 -who died. Well, you know, I belong to a, an internet, internet, message group that is called, "Full Disclosure." And it was, it was, it was started a couple years ago, maybe more than a couple of years ago, to correct the historical revisionism: that was trying to make it sound like, Vietnam was a glorious war. And, these are mostly veterans, their outspoken antiwar veterans, who, share emails, you know, not every day, but frequently, with their comments about the way things are going now. And-and some of them I-I have met, a great group of antiwar vets in the Portland area similar so my best friends who I hear from pretty often and, and they are still active in doing what they did and opposing war and telling the truth of war to, to people who will listen, students and the public whenever they can. And we went on some speaking tours with them, Russell and I and, and it was very moving. It was very moving. One of this, one of these friends is a, was a Vietnam era medic, a combat medic, and-and he-he has a vague resemblance to Dana Carvey, and [crosstalk] his speech is so honest that he will have you laughing, and then crying within 20 minutes of telling his story about, uh- SM: 1:19:46 Wow. JL: 1:19:46 -about-about his experiences and those of the-the guys the young men around him, who you know, who were wounded and dying and some of them dead and, it has just been uh, hm. I-I am very grateful for their friendship, let me say that. I-I have met some guys whose-whose friendship means a great deal to me because they support, they support, our Kent State experience and a motivation we had that time. So, it means a lot to me. SM: 1:20:20 Oh really? Wow. Mhm. The, we only got a couple more questions here. One of them is, as you as we were in, especially the front edge boomers when they were in junior high school, there were some major events that happened. And I would like to know your thoughts on what happened in, on November 22nd of (19)63, where were you when JFK was killed? JL: 1:20:41 I was in seventh grade, I was seventh grade, in Mrs. Lakely's class and our [inaudible] Ohio at St. Francis De Sales. School. And of course, since it was a Catholic school, and this was our first Catholic president, everybody was heartbroken. It was, it was just a tragic, tragic event. And of course, in (19)68, then we lost RFK and Martin Luther King. And it seemed like we had entered a period of history where assassination was going to be the rule rather than the exception. And that was damn frightening, I think for us. SM: 1:21:08 Yes-yes. Right. And even Malcolm X got killed in (19)65. JL: 1:21:21 Yeah-yeah. SM: 1:21:21 Yeah-yeah. Oh, this is really well addressed in Tom Grace's books. He calls it, "The Long Sixties." And-and I think there is a connection between the, late (19)50s, labor movement and the early (19)70s, repression, government repression that kind of tamped down the-the, mobilization of-of antigovernment activity. So, I guess, I would guess, late, late (19)50s and early (19)70s kind of really defined something like the (19)60s. But, um, yeah, I-I do not know I-I am not a very well, I am not a very learned person I have going on as I have learned through life, but not through, formal education. So, I-I do not really know. You know, and, and, of course, of course, we all know that Gandhi, was murdered as well, way before, but he was a role model for Dr. King. It is amazing that, you know, you met-, you mentioned about why did the nine might in the four, who were killed, cannot stay in the nine who are wounded. Why did it happen to good people like this? Well, you know, same thing you can say for politicians who a lot of people believe we are doing good deeds for others, and then others did not like them. So, let us eliminate them. So, it is kind of, that is part of the experience of, I think of the boomer generation-generation as well. I got two more questions. This question is when do you think the (19)60s began? And when do you think it ended? If it did? You know, that the personalities of the, when you look at the, your life, from when you were young and now older, as a boomer, who were the personalities that you just simply admired? And, and then the personalities that you did not admire? JL: 1:23:32 Well, I loved my grandma. My grandma was from Slovakia. She always stood up straight. She always spoke clearly. She was a very well informed, she was a democratic precinct woman and would be at a voting ballot place every, every election. She was kind and sweet. And I know she, she was very quiet about those things that troubled her. And as far as someone to [silence] look up to, I think it would be Nixon. People with ulterior motives who would lie out the side of their mouth to get what they wanted. That was not really legitimate. You know, he-he got into politics by answering a one ad by some California businessman who wanted to voice for them in the, in the legislature in California. So, he was like a prostitute from the beginning, I think. Jagger Hoover, you know, he was a brutal, brutal, and evil person. And the more we know about him, the less I like him. He, he caused suffering and death. You know, um, I had I had the opportunity at one of the Kent State commemoration is to meet Bobby Seale, who, who I admire I mean, he was at the forefront of the Black Panther Party when, they rose up and challenged the government with the rifles on the steps of the courthouse in Sacramento, which is brilliant and also fearful, [laughs] fearful tactic. But, you know, he was not perfect, he-he did have some, he did have some shortcomings, but he was faced with an unbelievable situation that Black Panthers and that time and, and I guess I also looked up to people who I met like Reverend John Adams, he was a minister for the board of Church and Society, the United Methodist Church, he was like a chaplain for us during our Kent State Civil Trial, as well as a, the only white man to cross the lines in (19)75, between the FBI and the occupants' occupiers at Wounded Knee. So, to me, he is like a chaplain for, for causes that were important. I do not know. I am happy to have the friends I have, who support me and who I support, and, I feel very lucky to be where I am. SM: 1:26:09 And how important was the music of the (19)60s and early (19)70s to you? JL: 1:26:15 Oh critical, oh critical. SM: 1:26:17 -during, during everything? JL: 1:26:18 -It was life, music of the music then, and the lyrics. I mean, they are they define, to a large extent they define, define those moments more than anything else. SM: 1:26:33 Yeah, they were they were something that is for sure. And-and are there any? Uh, I only got-finishing this up. Um, the movies, there have been many movies that have come out trying to describe the (19)60s or the Vietnam War. What are the movies that you really, think are good ones to watch? If you want to try to understand the era when the Boomers were young? JL: 1:27:02 I do not know. My friend, my combat veteran friend, says that, uh, "Platoon," was the most realistic one that he thought for being in combat. I do not know. I do not know if there is movies, if a movie has-has captured, has captured the spirit yet. I-um, yeah, I am not. I do not have a really great memory anyway. So, I do not know. I cannot answer that. SM: 1:27:32 I will end with this. You know, when-when I asked that question about when do the (19)60s end, everybody has their own kind of answers. But to me when (19)73 hit, I do not know, you probably remember this point, it probably happened at Kent State as well. It is when the people were stripping. Remember that started happening again. They were running all over the campus nude and all that other stuff. I-I, I [crosstalk] was at Ohio, I was in my first job at Ohio University. And I got a call from Jones graduate tower on the Ohio State campus where I lived when I was a graduate student. And they said, Steve, you got to come back to campus, why? The (19)60s are over. I said, "What?" Just come back to the campus for Friday night and I will explain. I drove back to Jones tower. I read the paper that that that people in different residence halls are going to strip off and run across campus. They were feeling free. [laughs] And they did not care about anything political. And, uh, so I go behind the Ohio State Law Library and go and behold, they were doing the Rockettes [laughs]. Some-some women are coming out doing Rockettes things nude and then the guts the guys were coming out wherever they were. And then, then all of a sudden, people were taking their clothes off and run across campus. And then they said, come the next day, because they were going to run down High Street. And so, it was a weekend. So, I came to High Street sat at the corner of Mercian auditorium [laughs]. And here they come [laughs]. JL: 1:29:03 Wow. SM: 1:29:04 And I and I said, and I said to myself, "This, is this the end of the (19)60s?" [laughs] "Does this mean? [crosstalk] that fun, has now returned to the college campus?" [crosstalk] So I-I do not you know, I have always, I have mentioned that I remember I mentioned that to Rodney Davis and he laughed. And uh, when he said there was some sense of truce there because it was kind of people were going into communes at that time. They were, kind of, it was, -a it was a long story. I want to, and I want to thank you very much for spending this time with me. Yeah, I have learned a lot. JL: 1:29:38 Sure. SM: 1:29:38 -for you and, uh, and my admiration for you is always, higher, now it is even higher. You know, I, I will be there at the remembrance event this next year. I hope you are there because I am I am going to come back. I have to be there for Alan because I think they are going to do some things for him. But, are there any final thoughts, that you would like to mention that you feel, that you did not say? Anything in connection with your-? JL: 1:30:03 Oh, no. [laughs] Yeah, I do not know. [laughs] Sure. Well, you know, I have been to most of the commemorations I have missed a few. But usually someone will come up to me and they will say, and they will find, after they find out who I am and my connection, my experience, they will come up to me and they will say, "This is my first time back," and then they will start to cry. And so, what I often say to people is, you did not have to be shot, to be wounded at Kent State on May 4th (19)70. In fact, I think the whole country, the whole country had a wound that day. SM: 1:30:07 I agree. JL: 1:30:35 And I think we are all still trying to heal from it. SM: 1:30:41 That-That is, what a way to end the interview. Thank you very much, Joe. JL: 1:30:46 Thank you, Steven, for what you do. SM: 1:30:47 Thank you. And I will make sure that the university will send this, um this CD, it will be on your CD, it will be sent to you once they digitize it. For before it is finally approved. JL: 1:31:00 And, uh send me a link to look at the other interviews. SM: 1:31:03 I will do so. JL: 1:31:04 if there is a way you can do that alright, thanks. SM: 1:31:05 Yeah, I will do that- when I get [inaudible] I meant, um, I am-yep. Thank you very much. Be safe, stay healthy. And keep doing what you are doing. JL: 1:31:15 All right. You too, Stephen. Thank you. SM: 1:31:17 Have a great day. Bye now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Lewis IIIF Item Metadata UUID 179c73b8-5e05-46c8-8899-9dccdf7ab99f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9ed8e2e865385b5861b0556473679748.mp3 3812013610763e0c890413ce460f1cf9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. OHMS Object URL Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae Date of Interview 2021-08-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dr. Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joseph Patrick Hoolihan Year of Graduation 1972 Biographical Text Joseph Patrick Hoolihan was born in 1950, in New York City, and moved with his family in 1960 to Chestertown, NY then to Granville, NY in 1964. His father was a TV repairman and his mother was a housewife. He attended Harpur College in 1968 and graduated in 1972 with a Bachelor's Degree in Applied Mathematics. After graduation, he joined the United States Navy and became an officer, serving for 10 years on active duty. He earned his Master's Degree in Computer Science from John Hopkins University while on active duty. He recently retired from a Computer Sevices Gov't contractor firm after 35 years. At the time of this interview he lived with his wife, a former Harpur Student, in Maryland. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni from New York State; Alumni in Applied Mathematics – Alumni living in Maryland Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni from New York State; Alumni in Applied Mathematics – Alumni living in Maryland Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Patrick Hoolihan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hoolihan, Joseph Patrick ; De Rouen, Aynur Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Joseph Patrick Hoolihan was born in 1950, in New York City, and moved with his family in 1960 to Chestertown, NY then to Granville, NY in 1964. His father was a TV repairman and his mother was a housewife. He attended Harpur College in 1968 and graduated in 1972 with a Bachelor's Degree in Applied Mathematics. After graduation, he joined the United States Navy and became an officer, serving for 10 years on active duty. He earned his Master's Degree in Computer Science from John Hopkins University while on active duty. He recently retired from a Computer Sevices Gov't contractor firm after 35 years. At the time of this interview he lived with his wife, a former Harpur Student, in Maryland. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-08-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Joseph-Hoolihan.mp3 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 63:12 minutes Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni from New York State; Alumni in Applied Mathematics – Alumni living in Maryland https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/20cfa60c6efd11c7a78a9e1a611da3a3.MP3 a0cfe9052e56f493a136ee3ccf329266 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d46497ac51e4e92695f35556907db92.jpeg 2b0123aea39d6e856ff2a67bdcccc8e5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview June 7, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur De Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joseph Seif Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:53 minutes Biographical Text Joseph was born in Al-Khobar, Saudi Arabia to his parents Jacques and Jeanine. After the 2004 al-Khobar Massacre, his family moved to Lebanon. After the 2006 Hizballah/Israel war, Joseph and his family moved to the U.S. Today Joseph is pursuing a degree in Public Administration at Binghamton University. Keywords Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Lebanese culture, Lebanese Food, Vestal High School, Binghamton University Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Seif https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/706fe5a8d6f154addcc8f0cfc36cc7aa.MP3 e5e86847562f150ad00e4966d0ab9b62 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview June 24, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Josephine Haykal Biographical Text Josephine was born in Aintoura, Lebanon. She got married at the age of 15 and has four kids, three boys and one girl. She lived through the Lebanese Civil War, however, towards the end she was able to flee with her family to Boston in the U.S. After a couple months, she moved with her family to Binghamton and started a restaurant business called the Phoenician in the University Plaza in Vestal. Today she is retired and lives in Vestal surrounded by her family and Lebanese community. Language Arabic Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Keywords Aintoura, Lebanon, Japan, Lebanese Civil War, Family, Syria, Marriage, Lebanese Restaurant, Family Business, Boston, Vestal Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 54:32 minutes Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Josephine Haykal https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3b46627fc9a2dbe2ae6d7d747d33addf.jpeg 8d0bc4eeb6460cc6c5d55d5540a92712 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/42d91fbd2fc218f1dec33a3c27197792.mp3 5f2a5118152dcaa492077217609511e0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 18 February 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen and Erdem Ilter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jotiyar Taha and Ridwan Zebari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:40:12 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio audio Biographical Text Jotiyar Taha: Jotiyar Taha, born in Iraqi Kurdistan to a large Kuridsh family, has eight brothers and three sisters. In 1991, he and thousands of other Kurds fled Iraq, on foot, to seek refuge from the violence of Saddam’s regime. He and his family lived in a makeshift tent in a remote mountainous area in a Turkish refugee camp. Jotiyar lives with his wife and kids in Southern Tier NY.<br /><br />Ridwan Zebari: Being part of the Zebari tribe, Ridwan Zebari has eight sisters and seven brothers. Ridwan fled to an Iranian refugee camp in 1991, also on foot. He came to the United States after marrying a Kurdish refugee who arrived in 1996. Ridwan earned a Law degree in Kurdistan and received his Master's degree in Law from Syracuse University. He is an active member of the Kurdish community. Keywords Kurdistan; Kurdish; Kurdish culture; Saddam; Iraq; Iran; Turkey; Refugee; Anfal; Jalee; Islam; Religion; United States; Binghamton; Iraqi War; Refugee camps Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Jotiyar Taha and Ridwan Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Erdem Ilter Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 18 February 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 AD: Okay, we will start in English and then we will move forwards. Just a second let me move this here, so then it is going to be directed to you, and we will go from there. So now what I want to know is, where are you originally from? Where are you from, I mean originally which territory? 0:38 JT: I am from Kurdistan, north of Iraq, the city of Duhok. 0:42 AD: and how about you? 0:43 RZ: Yeah, I am from Kurdistan too same city. In the same place almost. 0:45 AD: Okay, so your main, your first language is Kirmanji Kurdish? 0:52 RZ and JT: Kurdish yes. 0:54 AD: That is the main language in that region, in that city? Yes? 0:59 RZ: Yes, right now yeah. Beside Arabic and English, yeah, they study both study Arabic and English in Education. Yeah, in education process, they use English and Arabic too. 1:14 AD: Okay so, we are going to talk about your hometown first and then we will switch to this area. And may be when we switch at one point, and I will just leave and you can continue in Kirmanji or whenever you struggle switch to Kirmanji when the answer ends I will ask a question probably that will be the answer you just gave in Kirmanji and we will go- 1:46 JT: Okay. 1:46 AD: So, when were you born? How old are you guys? 1:51 JT: I was born July 3, 1984. 1:58 AD: Okay, and how about you? 1:59 RZ: 1981. 2:03 AD: So, all of your family members are here now, or do you still have families living in Kurdistan? 2:15 JT: I live with my wife here, but my parents, brothers, and relatives all they live in Kurdistan. 2:20 AD: Okay, how about you? 2:22 RZ: Yeah, my family is there, but my wife’s family are here. In-laws! 2:26 AD: I see. So, are you guys coming from a big family back home? 2:32 RZ AND JT: Yes-yes. 2:34 AD: So, how many brothers and sisters? 2:37 JT: We are eight brothers and three sisters. 2:42 AD: Wow, big family. 2:44 RZ: You will see even bigger. We are eight sisters and seven brothers. 2:54 AD: You? Oh my God! 2:56 EI: Which tribe you are part of? 2:58 RZ: Zebari. 2:59 EI: Is it big? 3:00 RZ: Yeah. It is big 3:06 JT: Barwari. 3:08 AD: Wow so- 3:14 RZ: Sorry are you recording now? 3:15 AD: Yeah, it is recording. Now, yeah, so you live… Can you just describe your city for us? Have you ever been there? I have not been there. 3:30 EI: No. 3:30 AD: No? Can you just describe it for us, like you have such big families, like where do you live, like how did you grow up, like when I am thinking such big family, I am thinking more like rural setting than city life. So- 3:50 JT: In my life I pass many things I mean many challenges. We see a lot of thing, I saw a lot of things in my life. But I cannot say my life is like one American people they grew up here and be one person they just, their parents take care of him until he becomes 18. When I was born, maybe I was born in one village it was war. And my brother the same. But After 1991, we came back again to the city. We lived in a house. The house was not bad. Six bedrooms. 4:36 AD: Is it an apartment? 4:38 JT: It is a house. 4:40 AD: Does it have a garden? 4:42 JT: It has a garden, everything. 4:51 EI: Sorry, you came there after 1990 or? 4:54 JT: Where? 4:55 EI: You were born in that house or? 4:59 JT: At the beginning we passed many challenges of life. 5:03 EI: What were those challenges. Tell us about it. 5:07 JT: I remember like some dream in 1988 and before that my parents said we were in Duhok city but the regime of Saddam they kicked the Kurdish out the brought Arabs at that time. My family went to the village. I was born in that village in 1984 and same thing some of my brothers. And in 1988 I remember like some dream when war started again, you know after the Iran-Iraq war stop and the regime came wanted to kill all the Kurdish, and that is how we left, they came to burn the house. We left the village we could not stay. We left the mountain in- 6:04 AD: Oh, you moved to the mountain? 6:06 JT: Yeah, with the family. After we spent 10 days in one of the big mountains in Kurdistan, no water, no food no anything. Many people died; many people got sick as it was summer. Then Saddam said “Okay, you guys can come back.” We go to back and we … surrounded to the regime. They moved us to another place in the desert. It was 1989. We saw a lot of these situations. 6:48 EI: So, you remember them, you say it was like a dream. 6:51 JT: It was like a dream; I was almost five. 6:58 EI: For example, what about your big brothers when they told you. 7:02 JT: I am the oldest one, oldest brother, but I remember my father he was a Kurdish fighter, you know he was not with us. 7:11 EI: Peshmerga? 7:11 JT: Peshmerga, and my grandparents— 7:15 EI: Is he a live? 7:17 JT: Yes, he is a live. They came with us, they took care of us, my grandfather. We had a horse, they put us on the horse and moved us to a safe place. 7:35 AD: I see. How about you? 7:37 RZ: Yeah, like he said we are from a rural area, it is a typical farmer family, we grew up and lived out of city. But for my case I spent most of my time outside my home and family, because of my education. I spent seven years in dormitory. 8:05 AD: What did you study? Which city I mean? 8:10 RZ: I studied in Akre which like a province it is far from Duhok. I studied there two years and then I moved to Duhok which is a bigger city and has a better education institute. I moved there and I studied and finished high school over there. And for the university I moved to Erbil which is our capital and bigger. I moved there I finished four years college over there. And then I came back to my family, and I still did not go to the village. I worked in the city, like kind of a big city. 8:59 AD: So, you did not spend so much time in village? 9:03 RZ: Not much, just during the summer, spring. 9:08 AD: What did you study? What is your- 9:10 RZ: Law. 9:10 AD: Law? 9:11 RZ: I have bachelor’s degree in Law. 9:15 AD: I see, I see. 9:17 EI: What about primary school? You were living in dormitory? 9:23 AD: Not in primary school, but in middle school and high school. 9:27 EI: So, can you tell us dormitory life, the people? 9:31 RZ: It was really a tough time back then, because of the sanction, you know the international sanction, economic sanctions. The economic situation was really tough that time. Sometimes – 9:49 EI: Was it private? 9:50 RZ: No, it was government school but even for your life at dormitory you need somebody to finance you, but it was tough. 10:03 EI: So most of the students were Kurds or Arabs or different ethnicities, tell us about your friends- 10:13 RZ: Yeah, all of them were Kurdish. That was after 1991, you know after 1991 Kurdish up-rising happened, Regime withdraw all of its official institution from Kurdistan. 10:32 EI: So, there was a separation or discrimination, I mean you studied a lot with Arab students. 10:39 RZ: No, it was not like that actually- because we liked independence from the Arab regime, from the other parts of Iraq. You know I mean? 10:53 AD: It is after the first Bush, the Gulf war, yes, the first Gulf War. 10:58 RZ: Yeah, it was after that. 11:02 EI: So, the regime was not controlling Kurdish region. 11:14 RZ: Yes. Everything was Kurdish, even the education started becoming Kurdish in 1991, from that time they started to teach in Kurdish, Kurdishise the programs, yes educational programs. 11:32 AD: I want to ask still you are coming from… I have never heard such a big family, like eight sisters and seven brothers you said. 11:41 RZ: Oh, that is a typical family, you will see even bigger. Some people have twenty children some people have thirty. 11:50 JT: I think Catholics here they have the same. 11:53 AD: Yes, because they do not believe in birth control and all that. What was your father’s occupation? How did he feed all these kids, which is what I am curious about it, like your mother did not work obviously right? 12:14 RZ: She did. Yeah, she worked. 12:17 AD: She did? How did she find time to work like all these kids? 12:21 RZ: She worked, and she took care of her kids and she made food everything. 12:29 AD: Where did she work? 12:32 RZ: She worked in the farm with my father. 12:36 AD: Okay, so the family made a living from farming, yes? 12:45 RZ: Yes, they depended on farming. 12:47 AD: How about you? 12:49 RZ: I did when I grew up a little bit. 12:52 JT: My grandfather they are from the farm, but in 1975 they came to the city, and he opened a store, but still half my family live in a village and have farm. 13:11 AD: What kind of store? Grocery store? 13:12 JT: Yeah, grocery store. But after this situation happened, they kicked the Kurds out in the city we went back to the village, we have our own village, we have our own lands. They always, the farm. The first reason they bring their food, always in the Kurdish mind the farms over, if they need it they go. 13:40 AD: So, what is your education? 13:45 JT: I went to high school. 13:47 AD: High School. Okay, so how about your other siblings? Did they get education, did they go to school, if they do like which- 13:49 JT: For brothers I am oldest, for sisters, I have two sisters they are older than me. One of my sisters, she finish high school, the other one never went to school at all because of that time. And my brothers they still going. 14:17 AD: They are still the school? 14:18 JT: Yes. 14:18 AD: How about you? 14:21 RZ: Usually in tribal communities and societies usually boys go to school and girls stays home. My brothers went to school, some of them finished high school, some of them finished two years degree. Two of them are teachers right now who teach in village school and my sisters never went to school. I finished college. 15:00 AD: Are you the only one with college degree? 15:03 RZ: Yes, and the other brother he is teaching and he going to finish his bachelor’s degree too. 15:11 AD: I see. Are you the oldest? 15:13 RZ: No. I have four brothers they are older than me and two of them younger than me. 15:21 AD: And from your family, you are the only one you are here? 15:24 RZ: Yes. I am the only one I am here. 15:27 AD: So, what made you come here? And when did you move here? 15:36 RZ: I came here in 2009, there are two reasons made me come here, the first one to help my family if I could and to continue my education. But it looks like I cannot achieve both of them. 16:07 AD: No? 16:07 RZ: Not even one of them. 16:09 AD: So, you are not a refugee here? Are you? 16:13 RZ: No, I am a citizen right now. 16:16 AD: But you came as a refugee? 16:18 RZ: Yes. 16:18 AD: Okay, you came as a refugee, and you have the American citizenship right now. 16:26 RZ: Yes. 16:26 AD: Okay, all right. And you work with Karwan for the Kurdish Organization? 16:34 RZ: Yeah, we do. 16:38 AD: Both of you? 16:40 RZ: Yes. 16:40 AD: Okay. So, you work elsewhere right now? 16:46 RZ: No, I am taking some classes, and I also worked in a company over there, but I got laid off recently for six months. 16:53 AD: Oh, which one? 16:55 RZ: From Endicott, Connect Technology. I got laid off, and now I am taking some classes at BCC. 17:03 AD: I see. They have a pre-law program because I did translation once. 17:10 RZ: I am not interested in that actually. 17:12 AD: No? 17:12 RZ: I am taking some other classes, English classes. 17:15 AD: That is good, that is good. 17:17 RZ: At least to improve my English a little bit. 17:19 AD: Oh, yeah. It takes a while it is just a difficult language. How about you? Like when did you come and why did you come? 17:35 JT: I came in 2007. After 1991 always, the United States of America became my dream because we see that on TV too much movies, Miami, New York city you know and after 2005 I met a girl in Kurdistan. She is Kurdish. She was coming back and she wanted to get married. 18:03 AD: She is American? 18:04 JT: She is Kurd. 18:06 AD: No, I mean she can be Kurdish, but American Kurdish. 18:11 JT: She is US citizen Kurd. 18:13 AD: Yeah, American Kurdish. 18:14 JT: Yeah, she kept. 18:15 AD: Yeah. 18:15 JT: Yeah, and uh, after that we date each other and the reason I came here because uh. 18:18 AD – You married her. 18:19 JT: I married her. And uh, actually when she saw my life, she saw Kurdistan in 2005 she did not want to come here because she said her life is easier in Kurdistan. She said here in America life is hard, you have to work, everything is money and bills. I said no I want to see the United States. I want to see America. After I saw America, now. 18:46 AD: Now you want to go back? 18:49 JT: But I see something more important, you know the law of America, you know, you have the right. They accept you when you come here. It is good; you raise your kids here. It is a normal life. You do not have to be rich; you do not have to be a big person. 19:11 AD: That brings up the next question I am going to ask you but before that I will ask you this. So, you did not come here as a refugee like Ridwan? You came because of your marriage? 19:27 RZ: I am married too actually; I forget to mention it. He reminded me. I got married too. We are almost the same situation. 19:39 AD: But your initial start is a refugee? 19:42 RZ: No, the same case. But we are still refugees. 19:45 AD: Yeah, but I mean like government statistics or whatever. 19:48 RZ: You mean like political issues, and you have like feel not secure over there? 19:54 AD: Yeah. 19:54 RZ: No, it is not like that actually, we came on our own wish. 20:07 AD: So now, you mentioned that there is freedom, the law is working here, you get respected. So, what are you missing here? Like you are here now, what are you missing about home? 20:26 JT: I miss my family, and the place where you grew up, you always miss that place. Okay, I mean I miss the place I miss the culture; I miss my family and all other thing I love in the United Sates. 20:44 AD: So, you prefer live in the US? Because of that? 20:48 JT: Yeah, I want to my kids grow up here. 20:52 AD: Yeah, I see. How about you? 20:57 RZ: We missed everything over there actually. Even a stone in our village, we missed a tree over there, the mountains everything, beside the family. There are friends and relatives. We miss everybody and everything over there. But we still have a good life here too. 21:22 AD: Because you have a community, right? 21:24 RZ: life here is not that bad but it is just like some moral issues, like is good here but he said families, your friends all there, you miss your home, your town, your country, everything. But here is still good, I still love here, I still like here. 21:57 EI: I think there is a Kurdish community, so it makes it easy culturally. 22:02 RZ: Yeah, there are plenty of families here about sixty families they live here, and they are very integrated, they help each other, they visit each other, they participate in any kind of events. I mean they are not like everybody here is home does not know what happens to other Kurdish families. 22:28 JT: We still have a culture here. 22:30 RZ: Yeah, it is like integrated community. 22:32 JT: We have a big family, we have a culture and always they come new people, they are back home, they knew who is coming and right now… um what is it called … communication became easier. You are not missing your language or culture; you know it is easy to call back home or see or you know communication. I mean it is not like 10 years ago or 20 years ago. 23:04 AD: Yeah, so life back home how was it? Like what were you … celebrating the Eids and Newroz, I do not want to give the words in your mouth, like how you guys like, how was daily life back home? Like what were you cooking, eating, how were you guys getting along with family, relatives and friends. 23:44 RZ: Actually, life over there is not like here, here everything is like program, you have plans you do every day. Sometimes you do not have time to do your activities, but over there, it looks like you have more time to do everything you want. To visit somebody, to do your activities, to do your job, you still have free time. 24:17 AD: like weddings celebration? 24:20 JT: Yeah, the weddings celebration I mean Eid, Newroz, but right now I want to you talked about food and daily life. Since 2007 many things have changed. The region has become rich region right now, people have money. There used to be three people live in one bedroom or six or more. Right now, people have become rich, and they have built big houses and food has changed. They eat nice food. And daily life has changed. They have car, wherever they want they can go. They can visit, most Kurdish people right now they visit Turkey. It was my dream I visit Istanbul one day. My brother went to Istanbul for a visit. Businessmen go to India; go to China they go to Europe. Before that the daily life of most of these people who are busy with these things, was on the street or they had a small store, or they were working for one party. I mean it was like that, but right now the region is very developed, and I think nobody is spends free time right now. And they still doing ceremony, Newroz. 26:00 AD: Do people still know each other? 26:03 RZ: Yeah, they still know each other. 26:07 AD: Because I am sure in the past everybody knew each other. 26:08 RZ: Yeah, life is changed since we left. Every month life is changing, new stuff coming but people still have their culture, they still visit each other they still participate in each other’s events, but it is changing day after day. 26:37 JT: Too much what is called, other people come to Kurdistan- 26:44 RZ: Foreign labor they come from India, Indonesia and other countries, they come over there they work. 26:55 JT: Turkey yeah Turkey. 26:57 AD: I see, if you are not, go ahead. 27:05 EI: Celebrations or Eid here, do you celebrate it here as well? 27:08 RZ: Yes, we do. Actually, right now, I think we are better than them in Kurdistan. I mean like a small community, Kurdish community, we still doing. 27:26 AD: How about religion? Are you guys Muslim? 27:28 RZ: Yes, we are. 27:30 AD: I mean do you follow the rules. Are you strict? 27:35 RZ: There is no concern about us like adult people, but there is concern about kids they grow up here, they may not going to be like following religious issues the smaller issues like we want them be. But for us, we are good. I do not feel like anything change from- 28:02 AD: Do you go to mosque every Friday? 28:10 RZ: Yeah, we do. We still do. 28:12 AD: Okay, so you follow with the religion. That is still continue but you do not know if your son is going to do that. 28:18 RZ: Yes, exactly, that is the issue that we worry about, yeah. 28:22 AD: And if he does not that is normal, I think because they grew up in a different. 28:26 JT: City the best we will do and show them- 28:31 AD: Yeah, but you are not going to take a gun and force them. 28:36 JT: Everything if you put pressure on it, it is not going to work. We are doing our best you know. And I think the life right now in the United States is changing too. Before thirty years we did not have like this Muslim community, not just that Kurdish, but the Muslim community. We did not have that so many mosques. You know. We did not have so many websites talk about Islam. Right now, is- the popular. I think that way I think I can say my kids they will not lose the religion because the publishing is growing and easy you get information- 29:17 AD: Yes, so still let us go back did you feel about or how your parents, you are obviously young, really young, how did they fell about Saddam’s regime like do elderly talk about what they went through and if you want to- 29:46 EI: Your father was Peshmerga, so I think he had a lot of memory- 29:49 AD: What I am saying is now if you feel more comfortable speaking in Kurdish, because this is like more intense memories. This is not like talking about Eids and Newroz then you tell Erdem; you can switch to Kirmanji. I think- Erdem you got the idea. 30:11 EI: Yeah. 30:11 AD: Okay. Would that work? 30:14 RZ: Yeah, everything we could speak in English if we wanted say something in Kurdish, we could say it 30:21 AD: Just go ahead and say it. I want to hear exactly your father, what where they are talking about, I mean to me I am really interested hearing how they felt about it as they were going through. 30:40 RZ: I think I understand what you mean. Even we went through some of that issues here because from (19)80s. 30:48 AD: As a child. 30:49 RZ: Yeah, so from (19)80s to 1991 like we remember something so we could say something about that. 30:54 AD: Like I mean being a minority like how did you feel or what was happening? You want to talk about those memories like- 31:10 JT: You see, I am just talking about one memory I mean the reason that they kicked my family out of the city, my uncle was a student, my grandfather had a shop, like was a businessman. My father, he was young and married. When he became eighteen, he had to go Askaria you know the military, work for the military, for Saddam. Okay, that time there was a war between Iraq and Iran, and my grandfather told him I do not want you to go and fight for nothing, best something good for future, or for you or for your people. My Grandfather, I mean my father could not live in the city anymore. He went to the village. And that time— 32:18 EI: Because he refused to join army? Because your father did not join army? 32:22 JT: Yeah. No, no not because of that. Still, he thinks about one day that Kurdish become independent, He always had that in mind because my grandfather he did that before, you know. But, okay, when he is coming to the village, and he meet Peshmerga and became Peshmerga and after the government, Saddam knew that he became Peshmerga, okay they came to catch my grandfather what is called? 32:53 RDZ – Handcuff. 32:54 JT: Handcuff him and my uncle and kick out the rest of the family; women, children and they said bad things about them, and my father’s store at that time he spend 9000 Dinars and became a lot of money and they threw on the street and people came to take it and you know they out of business, they out of everything and … This is how they sent us to the village. Because of, of war my father joined the Kurdish fighter. 33:26 EI: It was like with his reach, or he wanted to join them. 33:33 JT: Yes, he wanted actually he is umm, yeah. Yup and after that we went to the village and like I said in 1988 they burnt the village too, they called Anfal, they started Anfal of the Kurdish, not just in my village maybe four thousand villages throughout Kurdistan, yeah, they did that. And after that is just situation that happen, everybody see all life in every, I mean you can, I mean at that time each person have a see on, um tragedy and yeah. 34:21 AD: So, everybody experienced something like that. 34:25 RZ: He mentioned some of them actually. We do not remember what happened like in 1920 until 1960s, but what I do remember is from 1986, (19)87, (19)88 until 1991. I remember that I think the worst year that I have seen is 1988 which was after the Iranian-Iraqi war ended. Saddam faced toward the Kurdish people, he destroyed like he said four thousand villages and he removed all these people, and he settled them in like in concentration camps I was one of them actually which they call Anfal campaign in that time. 35:27 AD: What- it is called- 35:31 RZ: Anfal. And in the same year Halabja happened, He bombarded Halabja City with Chemical weapons. I mean the thing that I have seen Anfal is like a giant, big process against Kurdish people to remove- 35:55 EI: Ethnic cleansing. 35:56 RZ: Yes, it is kind like genocide. 35:59 AD: It is what Hitler did. 36:00 RZ: Yeah exactly, to remove Kurdish people from their villages even from … cities to settle them in areas that the regime had more control over it near to the big cities to settle them over there and then do whatever they wanted to do take young people to put them in jail. And the families stayed in those camps, I mean everything is under their control in that time. And he settled with they call military in those villages to like to prevent any activities to do not let the Peshmerga to do their activities in those areas. 37:07 AD: That is only natural, I mean the setting is everybody knows about what Hitler did, talks about what he did but no one talks about what Saddam did. You know. 37:19 JT: No, because of, I think all they go for business again. One story I heard in a history channel, I do not want to be a shaheed testify that but that time I think because of the business between the big countries, powerful countries and Saddam regime, they did not want to see that was happening to the Kurdistan. I heard one story the Congress of the United States were ready to go and see it, but big companies said Okay, we have a business in Iraq if you guys do anything we will lose the business and it is not good for the US economy. 38:04 RZ: You are right, business had a lot of impact in the politics. 38:09 JT: And just Iran and BBC and the Kurdish TV they have a couple or small video and some pictures of what happened. 38:21 EI: You said Iran, right? 38:22 JT: I think Iran. 38:23 EI: Yes, because Iran was in conflict with Iraq and- 38:26 JT: Yes because of that and it is close to the border. I mean Halabja they killed five thousand in less than five minutes, but he used gas and chemical to other parts too. But nobody know I mean, because there was not any media anything back then, but right now they follow what people said and the researchers- And they killed for that Anfal for that time about 185 thousand Kurdish during that time. 39:02 AD: So, your parent or may be your grandparents like, this is to me the worst, like end of (19)80s I think is the worse what happened in your territory, but did your grandparents or your parents talked about like anything, you know the government how Kurds were being treated before you were born, I mean how did they feel, how were they treated I know how things were in Turkey but I do not know. Do you know? A little bit? Let us see what you know. That is very interesting. 40:31 RZ: Yes, since like new Iraqi in 1920, the new Iraqi state was established. Kurdish were treated like second class citizens. They were not allowed to take some jobs, positions for instance pilot, even ministers or even general directorate unless if you had admit that you are not Kurdish, and you are Arab or something else. Then they will let you to take that position. 40:58 EI: It was in practice I think in law for example, was the same or, the Kurds were recognized by law in the paper as well, right? 41:10 JT: Yes, paper too. 41:13 EI: Could you speak you own language in school or street? 41:20 JT: No, in street yeah but no in school. 41:22 RZ: They did speak language I mean on street or anywhere, like Education, no they did not have. 41:31 AD: It is Arabic. 41:32 RZ: It is Arabic. 41:33 EI: If you go to a doctor or your father go to doctor. 41:40 JT: You have to speak Arabic. I mean first I learnt Arabic and after that I learnt my own language. I speak Kurdish, but Academic I cannot. I cannot read two letters and two words, something I cannot write but for Arabic I was okay. 42:01 AD: So, Arabic is the language you are most comfortable with communicating? 42:09 JT: Right now, no, right now Kurdish because 20 years I mean I said- 42:13 RZ: We do speak some Arabic, a little bit. 42:17 AD: Oh, so you speak little bit of Arabic- 42:19 RZ: Yeah, a little bit. 42:21 JT: Because it is almost 15 years passed and you are never- 42:27 RZ: You know that topic he mentioned like, like legal issues, discrimination between Kurdish and Arabs it is not like that, I mean, there is no legal article says Kurdish have this right and Arabs have this right, it is not like that- 42:45 EI: But generally, as I know in Syria it is like Syrian Arab state. 42:53 AD: Or Turkish state. 42:55 JT: Iraq was too. The Iraqi Republic- 42:58 EI: Was it the Republic of Iraq or The Arabic Republic Iraq? 43:00 RZ: No, the Republic of Iraq. 43:04 AD: But in Turkey like whoever lives in the land of Turkey is Turkish. 43:09 RZ: No, it was not like that, Iraqis old constitution they said Arabs and Kurds live in this country, but you know what they do say something, I mean the benefit of Kurdish, but they will, they have their own people, even they Kurdish but they are regime’s people. 43:41 AD: But the law says Kurds and Arabs together. 43:47 RZ: The constitution says that, but in practice it is not like that. You were not allowed to take many positions. 44:00 AD: Unwritten law, there was unwritten law. The written law said yes you can- 44:04 JT: The power always they change the law, the do not follow the law. They do not follow that Parliament, you know they do not follow anything; they follow what comes to his mind, someone like Saddam, and some of the cities of Iraq like they are Kurdish and Arab they live in the same city like Kirkuk, Mosul, and Diyala. I men in Mosul I know a lot of Kurdish they are not allow to buy a house. They are not allowed to buy a land. If you buy it you cannot have a paper says it is mine, no because you are Kurdish, you are not allowed to have this. Many Kurdish people did, they married an Arab woman and when they buy a house, they put on her name because he is Kurd and cannot do that. 44:54 EI: How was the integration? Could they marry Arabs? How was it? 44:59 RZ: Yes, they did. Actually, the conflict and the problem was not with the Arab people, it was between regime and Kurdish actually. Even now people live in normal live with Arabs. I mean there are neighbors, they get married from each other but- 45:26 AD: So, when you in your regular, because that is close to my own research except mine deals with non- Muslim minorities, because what I am studying is like dealing with that group of people. So, when I interviewed with people, like you they were telling me they had this brotherly loved toward if they were Muslim to their no Muslim friends or if they were non-Muslim to their Muslim friends, so people were telling me how fantastic their relationship was. I am not talking about government, I am talking about people, living in a district, mahalle, is that an Arabic word. 46:14 JT: I was not part of that time I cannot say it but a lot of my friends when you go to the university of Mosul or Baghdad, I mean we shy we speak Kurdish. Many friends who are older than us they said when we-we go to the university we shy when we speak Kurdish because people after the time of war, they would say oh you are Kurdish and second class and not something like me. 46:46 EI: The Arabs? 46:47 JT: The Arabs would say that, since I remember when my teacher were Kurds or someone Arabs when they speak until after 1991, they used to speak in Arabic to each other, they would shy because Kurdish language was something lower class to speak. you know? They saw that too. 47:12 AD: But people were getting along, you know the neighbors like your Arab neighbors? 47:21 JT: See, my city we would see a couple of Arab families in the city but we did not have any Arab families in the neighborhood, but for example you go to Mosul is not for us or a lot of those who lived over there, they could speak Kurdish but they would shy, many times they did not want to say I am a Kurd you know. 47:51 AD: And how is the relationship that is what I am asking- 47:54 JT: They were good, they were not talking about Kurdish, they were not talking about their own language. 47:58 AD: And they go for a coffee or tea you know? 48:01 JT: They are okay yeah. 48:02 RZ: Everywhere there are some people like exception, but generally they lived like neighbors and friends. They do not have that- 48:13 EI: But they were not, we need mandate they speak Kurdish like in Mosul or something- 48:19 RZ: No, I mean the people speak but- 48:21 JT: I said I have a friend they went to the university- 48:24 RZ: There are always exception in the university where all students around are Arab I mean you speak Arabic it is sometimes it is you do not want to speak your language because all around you they do not understand you- 48:49 EI: Was there a stereotype like about the Kurds or about the Arabs for example in your- say Kurds what people will remember? What will go to their mind? 49:01 RZ: It depends. If you are alone among many other Arabs and say I am Kurdish, they will say oh yeah, he is Kurdish. It is not like something it is not like normal; it is something- even if you are Kurdish, a group of Kurdish and one Arab says I am Arab, they say oh, you are Arab, I mean it is it depends who is the majority you know. But now it is different right now, like we are separate from Arabs, they come, they visit on vacations, they come to Kurdistan they spend good time there, but they will not let us to go there, we are afraid to there, it is not safe for us- 49:53 EI: So, after 1991, the borders are more strict or like between Duhok and Mosul and Duhok and Baghdad. 50:03 RZ: Yes, it is like two periods, from 1991 and until 2003, there was like not easy for us to go to the Arab parts, to the middle and south of Iraq, and even for them was not easy, but easier for them to come- 50:26 JT: To come is safe when they come to us, but for us is- 50:34 EI: Why? 50:35 JT: See in 2003 I mean it was everything- 50:40 EI: No, I mean it was not just for Kurds or Arabs 50:44 JT: I think it is just for Kurds. 50:46 RZ: It is not easy for them, it is like a border, they had both checkpoints and- 50:53 EI: No, he said the Arabs could come, could pass the Kurdish border but there were safe without any problems, when the Kurds pass the Arab borders, it was not like it was a general condition. 51:07 RZ: You know why, because they have more resources than we do, like oils, gas petrol, but we did not have that. So, we need to go there to bring some oils and those kind of stuff. 51:28 EI: Aha, okay. 51:30 RZ: Yeah, but they will not let us to bring with us when we came back from there. You know what I mean- 51:36 JT: He is talking about nowadays. 51:38 RZ: No-no even in the past, you mean before 2003. 51:43 EI: Yeah. 51:43 RZ: But after 2003 the situation a little bit changed. I mean we have a safe haven, their territories all explosions which is not safe, so they come more than we go there. 52:05 EI: After 2003. 52:06 RZ: Yeah after 2003. Yeah, they spend time over here [Kurdistan] because it is safe, you know it is like a mountainous area it is different and it has a nice weather, they prefer to spend their vacation over Kurdistan than in the other parts of Iraq. 52:22 EI: Is it common visit between cities, because I had friend from Sulaimania and he said like it is not common that going to Erbil from Sulaimania even they are both Kurdish cities, is it common or? 52:35 RZ: You mean there like some restrictions or just people do not do that? 52:41 EI: If you live in Sulaimaniya, you will not live in Sulaimania until the end of your life. 52:45 RZ: No, they will do that it depends some people do it, usually people do that, people like to visit to see other areas different areas, to move out of his cities. They do, people do. Especially in the springtime. 53:03 EI: I think a lots of things has changed after 1991, 2003. So, what is the basic difference for you living in Kurdistan region without Saddam regime? What is the 53:25 RZ: Yeah in 1991 what happened we became like free from the tyrant regime, but if we look at the after 1991, we did not have like a legal official entity in that territory. It was just like, it is part of Iraq, and it is not part of the Iraq, I mean you do not have a clear legal situation, you do not know what you are, you are not with Iraq but you are with Iraq, you should have- 54:06 EI: You for example used the Iraqi currency- 54:08 RZ: Yes, Iraqi currency, Iraqi passport and- 54:11 AD: You still do, right? 54:13 RZ: We still do that, but after 2003, you know the new constitution was written and new laws has been passed, I mean a legal status in Kurdistan- 54:27 AD: Yeah, it is more defined. 54:28 RZ: It is a federal region from Iraq. But before that you couldn’t say I am a federal region in Iraq or I am from Kurdistan region. 54:39 AD: I do not anybody knew, seriously. 54:43 EI: Let us learn about your feelings about that. 54:45 RZ: It is better for us, I mean to move around the world to say I am Kurdish I am from Kurdistan; I am from north of Iraq, they know what it is. Before that if you have said I am from Kurdistan maybe they knew you are Kurdish and something happened to you with Saddam’s regime, but they did not get it what exactly what you are, but now they know, people understand that you are from Kurdistan- 55:12 JT: I never felt something like this time is good or happy about Kurdistan. 55:16 EI: The happiest time? 55:18 JT: Yes, for me, but one thing I said I will never think about Kurdistan they go if I mean the best parts loved is become the country. But right now, I never be happy for what we have right now. We are part of the Iraq for the political and the economy and we have very good relation with Turkey, I mean we have a business with the Europe and we can do something. 55:55 EI: Okay, so your relation about the government as an individual how was it with the Iraqi government or Saddam’s regime or the Baghdad, how is your relation with new government, Kurdistan government as an individual like a citizen. 56:14 RZ: it is much better you know, when you go to like an official place, you speak your language, the paper all in your language, I mean you understand what he tell you, he understand what you telling them... It is much easier. It may be- 56:45 EI: And the treatment, how they treat you as a citizen when you go to the state institution- 56:53 RZ: Yes, it is much better, I mean you cannot describe it. It is much different. Everything is like your own. It is your own people. He is there, I mean you are dealing with somebody in you culture. 57:10 JT: My father was talking about that time, and he had some paperwork for something, he said when I was going to one office, I was thinking they might catch me, they will hang me. You know it was like that. Right now, when I go to or when he goes to an office in Kurdistan, He can ask about his rights, like why I do not have this, why this and why that. Right now, it is completely different. 57:44 RZ: Yeah, the communication is easier. 57:47 JT: You can talk to them, you can fight for your right from the people work for you, but before you did not have that right. You were always thinking if you say something, they will catch you. 58:04 RZ: If you say something bad. 58:07 JT: Before the parents they were not talking about Saddam’s regime in a household, because they said the kids here that and when they go to school the teacher ask them what did you hear last night, and the kids like okay my father was talking about Saddam. - In what way? – The bad way. And in the morning, they come to catch the parent. But right now, I said I do not like this president, I do not like the authority in the TV or on the street or in newspaper. 58:39 EI: How about the election? The free elections or democratic of Kurdish region? 58:45 RZ: You cannot say it is like hundred percent free election, but it is better than many other countries any other places. You have like kind of freedom. 59:00 EI: As I learnt that in the last decade most of the Christians they are moving to Kurdistan. 59:08 RZ: Yes, that is right. 59:10 AD: Christians from where? 59:12 RZ: From other parts of Iraq. 59:14 AD: Arab Christians? 59:16 RZ: Yes, they are Arab Christians, even Arabs, they have come there, they live there. Many of them. 59:24 JT: Back home ask a Christian, always they are looking for having a good life no problem in life you know. 59:32 EI: Because they are minorities. 59:35 JT: Yeah, and when there was a war in Kurdistan and was not a safe place at that time, half of the Christians moved to Baghdad to find a safe place. After 2003 it changed, they came back, not Kurdish Christians, but Arab Christians and Arab people and they came back. The government of the Kurdistan has provided a nice place- 1:00:05 RZ: It is like a safe haven- 1:00:06 EI: There are two identities now right, the identity cards or passports it is Iraqi and Kurdistan? 1:00:15 RZ: No, it is only one. 1:00:17 EI: What about identity? 1:00:19 RZ: You have like an ID which is called Personal Status ID [Ahwal Shakhsiya] it is same for all the Iraqi people; Kurdish, Arabs all of them. 1:00:26 EI: Is it written in Kurdish or Arabic? 1:00:28 RZ: Right now, is Arabic, but in constitution they have changed it; it says we have to write in both languages. Same thing on the currency. Right now, the currency only in English and Arabic. You know I mentioned before that, you have like a legal base, but what you have to do is procedures, you have a process you do it every day. They already have passport in Kurdish and Arabic and English; three languages. And they will do it this year or next year, they will do the identity, the ID card in both Kurdish and Arabic. They start doing those kind of stuff. 1:01:17 AD: It is hard to change things like this. 1:01:21 RZ: Yeah, overnight, it takes time. 1:01:23 JT: I mean always who come to Baghdad, become government or president to Iraq, he becomes a dictator, ambitious, he wants money you know. Anyways things become hard. Right now- if you want to deal anything with Iraq, you have to deal with the neighboring countries. You know for Kurdish it has become hard right now since 2003. In 2003 the Kurdish had- But right now because the government, new government called Maliki government; it became hard but the good thing we have the right in the constitution if one day- 1:02:20 AD: So, go ahead I will say something else. 1:02:32 EI: Do you belong more to Erbil or Baghdad? 1:02:37 RZ: I know what you mean, the identity. Yeah, I mean we always feel like us a common people, public we always think that we belong to Kurdistan, we are Kurdish and we always is our dream to have a state independent state. But it is in our desire what we want to, it is what is possible what we can do. You know what I mean. What we think and what a politician think is different. I think they understand the situation we do. They know what is the challenges around us, how they going to deal with that, we always as people say okay, I want to a state I want to be an independent state but when you look at a politician it is different, we have more challenges around us and how to deal with it. So, we always think that we belong to Kurdistan. 1:03:59 AD: I have a question, you know there are other Kurds living in other parts of the region like, there are some in Iran, Syria a lot, I think the most in Turkey. Am I right? I think Turkey has the most- 1:04:22 JT: We say twenty million. 1:04:24 AD: Yeah, so how do you feel about the Kurds living in the other parts of the world. I mean like what do you think about that? Like how do you feel about that? 1:04:42 JT: Always we feel about them, we want to have right, we want to have best life for them, anything happen to them, we here in harm. We want to best do for them, and many time let me just say why this government a Kurdish government and do not have Kurdish from Turkey, we still do not have any that much you know but always we felling about the Kurdish everywhere. 1:05:13 RZ: Yeah, like I think we have to talk like us as people not politicians, we always think that we are brothers, we have the same, we came from the same background, we are the same nation and we feel bad if something bad happen to them, and we feel happy when something good happen to them, but when we say okay they have to do the same thing that we did, I think that we are not fair to say that, they have their situation in their country, their government, they could do according to their situation not like what we did, and each parts of Kurdistan like has a different situation. 1:06:05 EI: Why do you think it is like that? What is the reason for different parts? 1:06:14 RZ: You know what? I mean what else should we think, I mean you live in Turkey, and I live in Iraq let us say, we both, it is true we are Kurdish we both have, I mean with the same many common stuff like language or culture, but in political point we are different. Each of us has different situation, you could deal with your government, with your country according to your situation to have like a certain kind of relationships with your government and I do for my part and the other parts they do the same thing according to what is good to them, what they see it is good for them. May be what we do, we did in Kurdistan, I mean the part of Iraq is may not be applicable in Turkey or in Iran, maybe they have a different situation and they need a different solution, but like I said as a Kurdish nation we always like we feel we are the same. 1:07:29 JT: We are always thinking about the Great Kurdistan. 1:07:33 AD: Yeah, but do you think wherever the Kurdish groups are located that the culture is little different. Like do you think your culture is little bit different than Erdem’s culture. 1:07:57 JT: If anything, you- each other for a long time there will be change. For many years for example I cannot visit anybody in Turkey [Kurdish]. They do not know what I am doing or what I have, they will change from what they grew up with. 1:08:18 AD: I mean it affects little things like the way you make your soup is different than- 1:08:23 JT: Yeah, all they from History, when you not speak with each other, when you do not know anything about news or anything about each other, and for example to the Kurds and Kurdistan in north Iraq they have a Behdini and Sorani. One river took them apart. Historians say they never saw each other for five hundred years, for example I mean I do not know it is true or not, that is why they say the language [the dialects] are different, the clothes are different. 1:09:13 AD: It is a different dialect. 1:09:15 RZ: So are the other nations. Arabs have the same, I think even more. From Algeria to Iraq they do not understand each other but what makes different us and them they have their own country, their own government I mean like a for a century, they did something common, like their language, they put standard language for them, they put many other common stuff that they have there like what they call the Arab League they do some common stuff but for us we did not have that opportunity to do that. I mean we are part of Turkey, Part in Iraq, Iran, Syria, we did not have that opportunity to get together to do our common stuff, to put our language together, to make a one standard language, to unify educational program, to do such kind of stuff, but like he mentioned identity we fell that, I am Kurdish, we are the same even we have some differences like our dialects. But we understand each other, we have many stuff in common, I mean the more important thing is that we have the same identity. When I say I am Kurdish, I am Kurdish yeah it is done. 1:10:52 EI: So, you said you want to go to Istanbul and Turkey, what is Turkey in your mind? 1:11:00 JT: She asked me about the daily life before after 1991. I was talking about that time. 1:11:14 EI: Istanbul for that time? 1:11:16 JT: Yeah, that time, economy was bad, 1:11:18 AD: Everybody wants to see Istanbul. 1:11:21 JT: And I was not allowed to have a passport that time economy was bad, and I was not allowed to pass the border. 1:11:36 EI: I know for example in Kurdish region now people are learning Turkish, am I wrong? The young generation- 1:11:48 AD: You know Marwan? 1:11:49 RZ: Yeah. 1:11:49 JT: Yeah. 1:11:50 AD: Marwan worked with me, so I am friend with him. So, Marwan even is watching Turkish Show and he was telling me that how hot topic like, he was where he here, he one time he went back home visiting he said I am going to expecting people are going to like ask me questions and talk to me, and all of a sudden everybody left, he like I am standing all alone, they said we cannot talk to you right now, the show started, we will get back to you. So, he was telling me how crazy people are watching these Turkish series. 1:12:39 RZ: It is different right now in the globalization; people love to learn all languages, myself I want to learn Turkish. 1:12:52 AD: But yeah, same here. 1:12:55 RZ: I mean any language, any more language you learn it is like a different culture, like a different human. 1:13:04 AD: Exactly- 1:13:05 EI: So, do you still want to go to Istanbul? 1:13:08 JT: Not anymore, because I am coming from New York. 1:13:21 RZ: Even from New York City some people going to Istanbul- 1:13:28 JT: No, I am joking, Istanbul always, it is a very nice city, I want to go, why not. Brothers, friends and cousins they always go there, the go visit and send me pictures and I am jealous. 1:13:41 RZ: It is easier right now, people go there; many people. 1:13:44 JT: No, no I was joking, Istanbul is nice. 1:13:45 RZ: And it is cheap. 1:13:46 EI: Were there flights between Istanbul and Erbil? 1:13:49 RZ: Yeah, there are some companies, they moved to Erbil, even by bus. 1:13:53 AD: Again, I am going to bring up Marwan. Marwan told me before he had no desire to go to Turkey, but last time when he was flying to Kurdistan so he changed his plane in Istanbul; even like the experience at the airport, think about it, he said it is like my home town that I really want to go visit, he is like there was like this little masjid at the airport- 1:14:21 JT: We have been there too. 1:14:25 AD: Yeah, he said there was a police- Turkish police with me praying, I felt like home. I want to go back. 1:14:38 JT: They ask about- 1:14:43 AD: I think the culture is similar whoever live in that region, whatever the ethnic, could be Kurdish, Armenian whatever Greek, Jewish it is like the culture is so similar and common, and people understand each other, I think. 1:15:07 EI: So, most of the childhood memories there is bad as I understand because of the conflict, so do you miss anything about your childhood? 1:15:17 JT: Do I miss? 1:15:21 EI: Yeah, like anything good, do you want to be child again? 1:15:31 JT: I mean something you are doing good you miss it, something at that time was bad for you, for your future you miss it you know. 1:15:38 RZ: When I went to school the first time, I think I was like ten years old, I was older not of a typical school age. But I started from the first grade, and before I went to school I said okay; how you think the school is going to be, all these kids they sit in the same classroom and the teacher will stand there; and I was afraid too much from school at that time but when I got used to it I got very good degrees actually. 1:16:18 JT: I do not know from, I grew up in city when you be a friend of some young kids you have to be very worried and I was not worry, I was hiding too much not going to school, missing the classes and we were going to smoke some door- yeah many things- to play soccer without shoes- 1:16:44 RZ: I think there is a relation between your memories and the place that built that memories. For me in here I cannot even think about my childhood, but when I move to the place I was there when I was a child, I will remember many stuff. I think I will cry in that time. 1:17:19 JT: And many time for Newroz we were taking a big tire and moving the tire, just pushing and pushing to that mountain for one day you moving and then burning the tires- 1:17:35 EI: So, you moved them to the mountain? 1:17:37 JT: Yes, we wanted to people see them, yeah, many thing, and the river is coming out it is not clean water and swimming, catching small fish- 1:17:52 AD: When you swim in the lake, I bet- 1:17:55 EI: No, because one river in villages so it was the same- 1:18:04 AD: Okay. 1:18:04 JT: We left many memories but right now the kids grow up over there, they do not have that life. 1:18:15 AD: Are you teaching, do you have kids by the way? 1:1817 RZ: I have one on. 1:18:22 JT: I have three. 1:18:24 AD: How old? 1:18:25 RZ: He will be three years by March 2nd. 1:18:27 JT: I have a three, four and a half and a seven-month sons. 1:18:30 AD: Wow you are fast ha? 1:18:31 JT: Seven left- We need ten. 1:18:32 AD: You need ten? 1:18:34 JT: Yeah, seven left. 1:18:36 AD: Are you going to reach up to your family tradition? 1:18:42 RZ: No, I am not going to do that mistake. 1:18:48 AD: He is good at it- 1:18:50 JT: I want to always be a leader. I cannot lead anybody in the United States- 1:18:57 RZ: I think you will be a soccer team, you and your wife and ten kids, it will be a typical soccer team. 1:19:02 AD: So, are you going to talk about your memories, not just nostalgic memories like good all days you know, playing and the river or whatever, the memories of conflict; are you going to talk about that, are you going to tell your kids like what you went through and like are you planning to do that? 1:19:29 JT: I think exactly. 1:19:31 RZ: I think they are not going to be interested in that kind of stories. I mean we are going to happen after maybe twenty years. 1:19:42 JT: If I tell my son I did not have electric for ten years, he will not believe me. He will say why you did not have electricity. 1:19:48 RZ: Where is that technology brings them to- 1:19:50 EI: They cannot imagine. 1:19:51 RZ: I think they are not going to like that kind of stories. They even do not understand what we are talking about. 1:19:58 AD: She is ten years old and like when I tell her stories, I mean fortunately I do not have memories like you, but every memory I talk about home, and she is interested in learning and she was telling me that she is different because of me, because she is not all the way American, she is like this different flavor is her, so she is very interested in listening whatever I tell her.. 1:20:37 RZ: You said she is ten? 1:20:39 AD: Ten. But I mean I did not just start, I have been telling her, because this not the only culture I want her to get it, you know what I mean, I just not that I am so crazy. I also go to Turkey every summer. 1:20:59 RZ: I have a story of a friend of us Jum’a Barany. He said he played a Muhammad Shekho’s song who is his favorite singer, He is our singer Muhammad Shekho, and he said he played that song and his son two three years, said “Please Baba, turn that off, it is too nosy for me.” And he told his son “This is my favorite song;) the boy said, “No turn that off please it is too nosy for me.” So, I think our kids they will not be interested in our stories. 1:21:34 AD: But you have a community, so that is another thing. 1:21:38 JT: I want to they know my culture, my religion but I want to have this mind, their mind, but culture and religion to be mine. 1:21:46 EI: Okay. 1:21:48 JT: You know what I am saying? 1:21:49 EI: Yes, I know. 1:21:50 AD: Yeah, I mean I think when you are gone and your memory can live through, and then maybe one day they will talk to them, and they say oh, so your father came here- 1:22:05 JT: You know right now I am still close to my parent you know. I talk to them on Facebook, skype I show to my mother, she knows my son. They love each other, and I told my son, “Okay we are going to Duhok, we are going to ride the horse, we go to swim.” You know, maybe I am not doing all that, but this is what I have gone through, what I have seen. You have fun or they think is fun. Yea but I am sure if he goes to Duhok, he cannot find any horse. But I will still tell them everything true, but I told him what I saw. 1:22:54 EI: Do you want to visit? 1:22:56 JT: Yeah, I visited in 2011 and if I have money- 1:23:08 EI: With family or a lone? 1:23:10 JT: My wife and my son they visited in July 2009 because my green card was going to be expired and I visited in 2011, I went by myself, but if I have money, I want to go every year. 1:23:13 RZ: I just came back two months ago. 1:23:16 JT: And it has become very easy, you go to Istanbul and from Istanbul to Erbil. Or you go to Diyarbakır. 1:23:28 EI: There is no direct flight? 1:23:31 JT: Not yet... 1:23:32 RZ: There will be I think soon, there will be from JFK to Erbil, they are working on that. 1:23:42 EI: Because they are stablishing a huge airport in Erbil. 1:23:43 RZ: They have the airport yeah, they expand it almost every year, and they expand the airport. 1:23:49 AD: So, do you work? 1:23:50 JT: Yes. 1:23:51 AD: Where do you work? 1:23:53 JT: I am working in Endicott Interconnect Technologies. 1:23:56 AD: Okay, so and your wives are Americans. Are they working? 1:24:05 JT: My wife, she used to work in the hospital but after the child was born, she stopped working. I have a problem with my son, with my kids when they are born, they have a little problem. She takes care of my kids. That is why she could not work anymore. She takes care of the child. 1:24:24 AD: How about your wife? 1:24:27 RZ: Yeah, my wife is working. She is oncologist in Wilson Hospital. 1:24:32 AD: In Binghamton Oncology? 1:24:37 RZ: At Wilson Hospital. 1:24:38 AD: Wilson Hospital? Wait, what is, she works in the… 1:24:47 RZ: Radiation Center. 1:24:48 AD: Radiation! Do you know what, this is a very small world; my friend just died. If you tell your wife- 1:25:22 RZ: What is her name? 1:25:25 AD: Cheryl. She just died. 1:26:00 RZ: I am sorry about that. 1:26:12 AD: Me too. Very-very dear... 1:26:19 RZ: Probably she gave her treatment. 1:26:24 AD: She did. So, what happened was, she got hospitalized at the end of, like 30th of December and so, she stayed in Wilson and the cancer created these tumors on her spine that is the kind of cancer she had and then she was getting the treatment where your wife is, and then, but anyway that was just the beginning because it spread everywhere, but then, she was still doing well when she had 10 treatments, like two weeks treatment and she met your wife and then she told your wife about me, and I told her I said well do you know what make sure to get her name so I want to interview with her. 1:26:30 RZ: Yeah, she is my wife yeah. 1:26:31 AD: Yeah, that is your wife. Yeah, tell her maybe she knows, I do not know. 1:26:33 RZ: Probably if she gave her the treatment, she will remember. 1:26:35 AD: She did, yeah beginning of January; two weeks she had ten sessions. 1:26:37 RZ: I will let her know. And it is okay if you want to interview her, I could bring her, or you could come over 1:26:40 AD: Yeah, we would love to right. I mean we can get her end because she grew up here obviously. 1:26:43 RZ: She came here I think she was 12 or 13 years old. She finished high school and college here. 1:26:51 JT: She started high school here, I think. 1:26:55 AD: But that is okay, she had the childhood memories, just like you. 1:26:59 JT: I mean I want to bring my wife too but she is older than me two years, but I think I have a lot of memories than her, I said when did you come here, she said, she told a wrong date. Before eight, I think. I mean for example I was four in 1988, I had some like dream but in 1991 when we went to the Turkey, refugee, Jalee I mean I remember every day. 1:27:31 EI: You went to Turkey as well? 1:27:33 JT: Yeah in 1991 we become refuges. Some Kurds went to Iran 1:27:36 RZ: I went to Iran actually. 1:27:37 RZ: I went to Turkey. 1:27:38 EI: Yeah, how was it. 1:27:40 RZ: It is another tragedy. 1:27:42 AD: Yeah, how was that-that is very interesting. 1:27:44 RZ: In 1991, after you know they call it the uprising happened in the Kurdistan. Kurds upraised against the regime, and they kicked the regime out from the cities and after that the regime like came back, recovering and then they came to the cities to the villages, they, what do you call? They shot many people; they killed many people. People started to run away from them. What they did, they got closer to the border with Turkey and Iran. Many people moved to Iran. Many people, some of them- 1:28:35 EI: So, how was the treatment in Iran, in Turkey? The refugee camps? You have your own story? 1:28:40 RZ: For me in Iran it was not that bad actually. It was not good. We suffered when moved, on the way until we got there. But when we got there, it was better. I mean many international organizations came to us, they gave support to us, and even Iranian regime was not that bad. The dealt with us in a good way. 1:29:00 EI: How long did you stay there? 1:29:10 RZ: I stayed there for about, I think for nine months. And then they- 1:29:20 AD: Wow, what did you do? How was, that is just another topic. Seriously, can you just give us a little bit, how was- 1:29:30 RZ: Yeah, we suffered a lot from the way when we went there. We walked for 12 days, and I was 10 years old. I walked all the way from Kurdistan to Iran. 1:29:39 EI: How many days? 1:29:40 RZ: Twelve days, yeah, and even younger child, they walked. It was snowing. It was March. It was March but it was snowing. … It was an exceptional, it was snowing, and it was March. You know. 1:30:06 AD: Yes, because the war was in February I remember so vividly. 1:30:10 EI: Halabja happened at 16 of that year? 1:30:14 RZ: No that was not Halabja. That was 1991. But Halabja was March 16th, 1988. 1:30:21 EI: So, the migration was 1991? 1:30:25 RZ: Yeah, I mean between 1988 and 1991 we had two major tragedy events. 1:30:36 JT: Did you saw the Anfal too? 1:30:40 RZ: Yeah. 1:30:40 JT: In two- three years we saw two. 1:30:43 RZ: Yeah, two of them. The second one, in 1991 it was like people immigrating to Turkey and Iran. For me I went to Iran. 1:30:57 AD: So, you walked twelve days, no washing, nothing- 1:31:01 RZ: No-no I did not have even food. 1:31:06 JT: No, even shoes, not even water. 1:31:09 RZ: I mean we had small amount of food; I mean we were eating a little bit, a bite each day. 1:31:16 AD: So how was the life in camps when you arrived. 1:31:20 RZ: It was better, when we got to the camps, I mean they gave us tents. We stayed in tents. 1:31:25 EI: were people dying? 1:31:25 RZ: Many people died, many old people and kids died. And they got sickness like diarrhea, and this kind of diseases 1:31:38 AD: Not hygiene. 1:31:39 RZ: Yeah, they died, but when we got there it was better. 1:31:44 AD: So, the camps, so you lived in tents. Were you able to take bath, shower, whatever. 1:31:50 RZ: It was not easy actually. Some people they made their own bathroom. They had public bathrooms actually not for taking shower just bathroom. They had them like group of, they built like temporary group of bathrooms. But for shower they had public shower, I mean for us is not easy for us to go to public shower because our culture will not allow us to do that, I mean for family to go to the public bath or shower… 1:32:31 AD: So how did you bathe, I mean- 1:32:33 RZ: They did. Some people made small out of cardboard or kind of stuff; I mean beside their tents they did. And some people got more than one tent and they made one a bathroom and the other room for living- 1:32:57 AD: Because we are talking about nine months here, you got to clean yourself. 1:33:02 RZ: Yeah, it was not easy, but it is not like you do shower every day or not even in ten days. May be once a month. 1:33:19 AD: Really? 1:33:19 RZ: Yeah, because you were not looking for a good life, you are just looking for some place to live in. 1:33:23 AD: How about food? Did you have enough food in the camps? 1:33:24 RZ: Food was good, because as I said many international organizations like Red Cross and WFP many other international organizations came and gave us food and instant food, even Iranian regime was good. 1:33:47 EI: How was in Turkey? I remember Turkey first refused to accept the refugees. 1:33:51 JT: Yeah, I mean right now when I see the Syrian Refugee in Turkey and they are very lucky. 1:33:58 AD: Really? 1:34:00 JT: Very lucky as they went there to Turkey and Turkey accepted them this way. We started to leave the city for some like 12 days, rain, snow it was cold. 1:34:19 AD: It took 12 days to get to Turkey? Turkey is not closer? 1:34:22 JT: So, they changed the way because they said Iraqi regime is coming. PEOPLE did not go the easy way because it happened in 19… 1:34:33 EI: So, you were escaping still it was not like they did not allow you let in- 1:34:36 RZ: Exactly because the government- 1:34:38 EI: They were still bombing or something, attacking the refugees. 1:34:44 JT: Yeah, they did not let us. 1:34:48 RZ: They tried to close the border by some, I mean you do not go from the border point, no you go from another way- 1:34:58 JT: You go through the mountain- 1:35:00 AD: Because of the fear of explosives probably. 1:35:04 RZ: Yeah, mines, this kind of stuff 1:35:06 JT: We passed when we walked for 12 days or more, when it became nighttime any place become dark you.… be there. If it is dark, or water or the road you have to stay with your family, and that time I was six years, something like that and I walked almost four days with one shoes, I mean in one leg I had a shoe one feet and the other out because it stuck in mud, and I always saw my mother and she was crying because of my, I had a cold and no food no anything I had a long blanket on my back we were walking. And when we went to Turkey, there were not any tents, no any bathrooms, no anything. And yeah, as I said the Syrian people right now are very lucky. The government of Turkey and the soldiers were not good with us. Not only the government and the soldiers, even the Kurdish people lived in that place, they told us where you guys come from, why you guys not being nice with Saddam? You know all they said do you guys you have a home? Do you guys have a house? Do you guys live in the trees or you guys live in the mountains? They thought Kurdish live like this way. The Kurdish told us. And you go over there, my family was big and my uncles family we had nothing to go in to be safe and protect us from rain and we found a little cave and it was raining and my father I remember he went to find us some food because he couldn’t buy it because all the armies around you, anyways he found us some little bread which was wet. We made a little fire heated it up, it became warm and nice we ate it. And after that the coalition forces came gave us food by airplane, they send it by a parachute. After that people got food this way. 1:37:31 EI: The government? 1:37:32 JT: No. 1:37:32 RZ: Organizations, it is like public … coalitions… Hulafa- 1:37:43 JT: Alliance, they sent food from airplanes, people go to get it and fight each other, and they hit each other for the food- 1:37:58 EI: They did not allow you to go into the cities? 1:38:02 JT: It was not a city. The place we went called Jalee, it was one small village on the Turkey’s border any fifteen house of the Kurdish. 1:38: 10 EI: Hakkari or Şırnak. 1:38:12 JT: No-no, they called Jalee. 1:38:14 AD: Do you know where it is? 1:38;14 EI: No… 1:38:16 JT: I do not know what part is- 1:38:18 RZ: I think it is close to Şırnak. 1:38:20 JT: I am not sure, close to… 1:38:21 AD: May be that is the name of the village. 1:38:23 JT: Yes, of the village. 1:38:24 RZ: Yes, it is a town. 1:38:25 JT: Yes, it is a town. The village, anyway I mean after that the Red Cross built a small hospital by plastic, Nylon; no medicine no IV no anything. It was a very tragic life. I mean people you see, no bathroom that people if you come in the bathroom, they will sit next to you and he go to bathroom. You will see the people that dying in front of you. I mean it is the worst, after a couple months, the organizations came, and UN but I do not want to say that the government did not allowed them to see the people. 1:39:21 EI: What? 1:39:22 JT: The government, the army. 1:39:24 AD: So, you ever got the tent? Nothing. 1:39:28 JT: Nothing, see after two days we sat on that cave, my father went to the food when they dropped food by parachutes or like a balloon, he got that and he asked for some tents, we went to sleep I do not know twenty people, fifteen people we slept in a small tent. 1:39:56 AD: Oh my God, so you lived in these conditions for nine months. 1:40:01 JT: No, actually we went back after I do not know it was five or seven months. We go March until June, July- 1:40:20 RZ: After the weather got colder people tried to find some other place. Some people came back and some other people they went to Europe, to America- 1:40:33 JT: Some country they accepted- 1:40:37 RZ: Yeah, some country accepted some people, yeah as a refugee- 1:40:42 EI: How was the local people’s treatment with you? 1:40:46 RZ: We did not have direct contact with local people because you know when immigrate to another country as a refugee, it is like a camp. 1:40:56 EI: But in your condition there was a camp, and there was tent- 1:41:00 AD: But he did not have a camp. 1:41:01 RZ: but even though the government- 1:41:02 AD: You were talking to locals, was it like Turkish- 1:41:05 JT: No, we were not allowed because of Jan Derma. There was a border. 1:41:08 RZ: It was like a camp. 1:41:09 JT: Many people wanted to go for example when they were bringing one truck of bread in the middle of that people, the people fight for the bread and the Jan Derma they wanted the people make a line and they hit many people. 1:41:34 RZ: In my case in Iran actually they made a regulation for camps. They made a board of administration of the camp. They had a manger and staff regulating camps. 1:41:54 JT: When we heard this about Iran, we said wow they are lucky because they are talking about… For example, when they say potatoes, and we say wow they have potatoes. 1:42:08 RZ: When somebody wanted to go to outside the camp to the city or to visit somebody, because many people have relatives over there who have settled in Iran in 1975- 1:42:23 AD: But I do not get it why they did not set up a camp like they did in Iran, that is interesting. 1:42:30 RZ: I do not know why, it depends on the government actually, Iran was doing that, they were kind of better and dealing in a good way with us. And they made a nice camp actually, stand but it was regulated in blocks and lines, and they built streets, when somebody wanted to go out of the camp, they give permit for several hours, for ten hours, seven hours, then you had to come back during the same day. But if somebody is really sick, they will send him out to other cities and they had a hospital, it was a big tent but it was a good hospital and they had doctors from WHO, they came from Japan, from Europe, the doctors- 1:43:39 AD: Yeah, that is what I am like how come no international health was available in Turkey, but it was available in Iran. 1:43:46 RZ: You know it depends on the country itself, I mean the government. 1:43:52 JT: Iran did that because they were not friendly with Saddam but may be Turkey. 1:44:02 AD: I do not know if Turkey was friend with Saddam at that time, were they friends? 1:44:07 JT: I mean if you look at political, Sunni and Sunni governments will be friends. 1:44:12 RZ: It had something to do with politics actually- 1:44:16 AD: 1990- 1:44:17 RZ: Yeah actually. It had something to do with politics, I mean Turkish government they did not allow to— 1:44:24 AD: Kuridsh? 1:44:28 JT: With the other president I think they are friend with the… but military they had more power that time …the government. 1:44:41 EI: Turkey had good relations with Iraq at that time- 1:44:43 JT: And still army in Turkey is more power 1:44:50 EI: The United States also supported Saddam like during the Iran war, I do not know why, I do not remember. 1:44:58 AD: Yes, yeah. 1:44:58 JT: I mean the friendly country helped us I think was French. France was a very good friend with us. 1:45:08 AD: I mean this is not our subject but US did not go to Iraq because they were so worried about Weapons of Massive Destruction or something like that, and they went there for oil. It was not to help Kurdish people or some civilians; I mean that was the excuse they came up with. That was not the thing. It was never to help you guys out, seriously. So that is how I feel, but- 1:45:49 RZ: But we do not mind if somebodies’ interest I mean contact with ours, I mean it is okay. 1:45:53 AD: No, no that is okay, but I mean look at the situation that is what I am talking about- 1:46:00 EI: During that nine months or seven month you lived just in mountains. 1:46:06 JT: Yeah. I mean we had a small tent for seven months. 1:46:13 AD: I mean is international humanitarian aid needed to arrive there. 1:46:21 JT: See, they came okay but I mean not like what Ridwan said. 1:46:31 RZ: In that time even, the humanitarian activities was not like now today, because some country they say this is internal affairs, you do not have to interfere with my- 1:46:50 AD: But with refugees- 1:46:50 JT: Even though- 1:46:51 AD: Internal- 1:46:51 RZ: I know but still it depends on the government, if the government will not allow international organizations they cannot go there. If I know that I am not able to do my job in this country, I wouldn’t go there. And who knows maybe the Turkish government told them that our immigration are in the good situation and we have taken care of everything- 1:47:23 JT: They did not allow any reporter to come and see our situations. 1:47:28 EI: How was the population, do you remember? 1:47:30 RZ: And even in Iran they did not allow some organizations to go there by the way. 1:47:35 JT: Almost a million. 1:47:36 RZ: they did not let some media to go there to cover the situation, But even then- 1:47:44 AD: What is surprising to me because when that happened, the events in 1991 I was here in the United States and like I was watching the war, all these happening on TV to me I was like amazing, I am watching what is happening on the TV, and then Özal he was giving speeches because Turkey always was pleasing America, it is like that was American act and Turkey was supporting with America and the talk was like oh we are helping out in any way but in reality look what was happening. 1:48:26 JT: Yeah, we knew that. 1:48:27 RZ: I mean you are from Turkey; you may know better than us. 1:48:33 AD: No, I was here actually at that time. 1:48:37 RZ: I know but you know politician they always have their- 1:48:43 JT: I mean see, if you looking right now if the Syrian people they go to become refugee in Iran, what will happen, what will be. It became like the refugees like in Turkey or like in Iran? Which one will be better for Syrian? 1:48:55 EI: Turkey. 1:48:55 JT: Yeah, is the true they are refugee in Iran, but you know what will they will be like over there. 1:49:06 AD: Yeah. So sad. What are you looking at? 1:49:10 EI: Jalee. 1:49:12 AD: What is it? Did you find it? 1:49:15 EI: Close to Hakkari. 1:49:22 RZ: It may be a small town that is why not famous. 1:49:29 JT: But if you check on YouTube- 1:49:33 RZ: Maybe it has a Turkish name probably. 1:49:40 AD: So, do we have any other questions? 1:49:45 EI: No, we will ask when you migrate to another country your identities has changed in Iraq you are Sunni or Shiite so but for the United States you are Muslim, so what is your experience with it? 1:50:02 RZ: For me actually maybe it is a personal issue, but for me whoever asks me who are you or who am I, I will always I am Kurdish, I never said I am Muslim actually and I always I am proud that I am Muslim 1:50:25 EI: For example, like when you, for an American in Kurdish is like nothing, they do not know about the Kurds. 1:50:35 RZ: We are trying to make it something. 1:50:39 EI: Or Arabs or like being Muslim is an identity. 1:50:41 JT: -see when I said when they accepted me they did not look who I am. 1:50:39 EI: Yeah, as a Muslim do you have any problem or discrimination or- 1:50:44 JT: For my self. 1:50:46 EI: In coming to the port, or in city or in hospital- 1:50:50 RZ: I have not experienced something like that never- 1:50:57 AD: Especially your dark-complected, you are probably okay- 1:51:06 JT: … If I do not speak them probably I am Italian or- 1:51:12 RZ: Many people tell me you are Italian actually- 1:51:14 AD: Yeah, it could be Italian or like because there is a thing especially males, not women so much, especially after nine eleven, Middle Eastern, you know. 1:51:27 JT: I mean I do not have, but my wife she was wearing a scarf when she was talking about her life when she was going to high school, she saw a lot of bad things. When they get in a bus and at college and still when she is with me, I am more respect of religion, but I do not want to do anything that people says Muslims are bad. When I am by myself I have more freedom, you know why, because when she is with me I do not want to do anything bad; I always do not want to do anything bad, but for example talk, or getting angry with somebody, I do not want to people see my wife with me because she is wearing a scarf and say ok all Muslims are like this. When she is not with me, I am having more freedom because they always they look at her scarf. And was she- 1:52:24 EI: It will be better to talk with this issue- 1:52:27 RZ: Yeah, I am thinking about females they have more experience than male. Yes, it is clear that is obvious she is Muslim, but for me for myself I never experienced anything like that. 1:52:32 EI: For example, you have a mosque here in Binghamton- 1:52:38 JT: People told me you are Muslim … the school always they talk about the Islamic way in … some time talking about history always negative, but if you look at the US history, this time is coming and going. If you look at Germany, they talk about Germany when, that time is gone. They talk on Russia they gone. When I guess African American the time is coming and go. I mean my time will be short for Muslim people they will go but the people- 1:52:47 EI: In General, you said there is no difficulty with your Muslim identity. 1:52:55 AD: Because probably people even do not even know you are Muslim right? 1:52:59 RZ: But even if you say I am Muslim, I have not seen anything that makes people feel bad or makes people take some precautions because I am Muslim, no. 1:54:14 AD: And you do not have that also the radical look… You know what I mean like fundamentalist look? 1:54:25 RZ: No not like that- 1:54:27 JT: People who was here, any Muslim people in 2001, maybe they had more bad situation or experience. I know a lot of Kurdish women after that they had taken their scarf off. They said we scare when they went to work, they said, you know something’s bad, my wife said when I was in high school at that time when this happened, I think it was college, but she said people were coming and say get out of this country, it is not your country, go to your country- 1:55:08 RZ: It is like a phenomenon it is just some cases- 1:55:12 JT: Yes, some cases. I am not saying they are bad because if anything happen to my country…. She said they taken off my scarf and walking- 1:55:27 RZ: Even not for us as Muslims even for American between themselves they have some kind- 1:55:36 JT: Yeah, I said, you know I told you that the United States … like this time you know. 1:55:42 EI: It was a special case, 9/11 actually. 1:55:46 JT: One time I was in the Donkin Donuts, we stand by the door were talking, one guy came close to me said, and his girlfriend who was with him went inside, he said came in front of us and said: Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar Jihad, and I told my friend what is going on, what is he saying? He said Oh, he is crazy. He told me, ah get out of my country, my friend being killed, I said, I do not care and one of the African American was close to me said do not worry my friend I passed this time too. [laughs] 1:56:44 RZ: It is always individual. 1:56:46 JT: Yeah, they accept you first, you know that you have rights; I am not seeing this issue. 1:56:51 EI: For example, institutions like when you go to any institution, school? 1:57:00 RZ: No, I haven’t seen anything like that. That is a good point here. I think that is what keeps us here, American live here, the justice- 1:57:15 EI: If you want to you grow up your children in a place, it is actually …best … you are more sensitive than yourself like to take care of your children better than yourself, so 1:57:28 RZ: That point make American special. 1:57:32 JT: In the beginning I said- 1:57:36 RZ: If they do not deal us equally like other American people, I think we are not ready to stay here, not even one day. 1:57:40 AD: But America also thinks about it is a very big country and things are not the same way in the Deep South. I lived there for ten years, people are not that understanding toward other culture, I was not there after 9/11 but I can just imagine but they are like, you know very prejudice. 1:58:03 RZ: I think you are right because is a big country they have almost everything, do not interact with other people that much, like Europe or other continent they are close to each other, but in America is like a separate 1:58:19 AD: Various Areas. 1:58:20 RZ: They have everything of their own, they have their game, they have their culture, I mean everything they say we are okay, we are enough for us, we do not need any other people, so maybe that is why. 1:58:39 AD: And also, this area, northern side is better- 1:58:42 JT: Yes, it is better- 1:58:43 AD: This morning just on TV they told me about this old man from Iowa this woman, white woman adopted a colored boy, they boy is mixed not really black, African American, very light completion, the 18 month old child on the plane, of course he is going to cry, so this man not only call the child the N word a couple of times and slapped the boy, because he was crying and now there is still some people can be like really. 1:59:47 JT: Yeah, American people they live in New York, sometimes they say okay I have a friend she goes to North Carolina, she said they do not accept us because we are New Yorker. 1:59:50 AD: Yeah, correct, correct, you know it is different. 1:59:54 JT – You know it is not right. This country have a- 1:59:56 AD: Okay well we can, it is, that is fine, no-no, that okay, well we talked; two of you 2:00:02 RDZ – It is interesting conversation. 2:00:05 AD – Yeah-yeah, thank you so much. So, we did exactly too uh- (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jotiyar Taha and Ridwan Zebari https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aca7de7f636f7c449c477ca9cdf9cda2.jpeg 9e5a7ea25e85e2ce887dcc70361fb7c5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3d42db66a9e9eb6f01235ce6675568ec.mp3 940ee7390bbd570fa202805b90a36699 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-07-05 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joy Yagman Year of Graduation 1972 Biographical Text Joy Yagman currently works as a coordinator for senior programs at Pace University's Active Retirement Center, one of the longest-running—and liveliest—programs for older adults in New York. Before that, she worked as a labor services representative for the New York State Department of Labor, a case manager for the Neighborhood Coalition for Shelter in New York City, and a Health Insurance Information Counseling and Assistance Program (HIICAP). Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joy Yagman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Yagman, Joy ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Joy Yagman currently works as a coordinator for senior programs at Pace University's Active Retirement Center, one of the longest-running—and liveliest—programs for older adults in New York. Before that, she worked as a labor services representative for the New York State Department of Labor, a case manager for the Neighborhood Coalition for Shelter in New York City, and a Health Insurance Information Counseling and Assistance Program (HIICAP). Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Joy Yagman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-07-05 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 31:26 minutes IIIF Item Metadata UUID 21a96593-866f-41ab-9c23-3b39359e2430