80 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2ed57e20ff708551da3157ae3a3e8921.jpg ef749c7ec55504af22e07f4c688ffde3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b4ee3217d63fe8521477f757e1bcfb6d.mp3 8566fafd4a41a7ef5dba9cff73855a38 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2007-07-15/17 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Judith Campbell Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Judith Campbell is a sister of a Vietnam Veteran who died in the war. She is linked to the group of families of the Vietnam veterans whose names are inscribed on the wall. Campbell is an active participant in The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (VVMF) ceremonies and programs, as well as a strong supporter of the Education Center at The Wall. Judy C. Campbell lives in Wilmington, Delaware, and works on behalf of Gold Star Families everywhere."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Judith Campbell is a sister of a Vietnam Veteran who died in the war. She is linked to the group of families of the Vietnam veterans whose names are inscribed on the wall. Campbell is an active participant in The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (VVMF) ceremonies and programs, as well as a strong supporter of the Education Center at The Wall. Judy C. Campbell lives in Wilmington, Delaware, and works on behalf of Gold Star Families everywhere.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"The Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Vietnam War; Flag etiquette; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Activism; Government trust; Robert Mcnamara; John F Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">The Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Vietnam War; Flag etiquette; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Activism; Government trust; Robert McNamara; John F Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. </span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 113:55 Subject LCSH Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Sisters; Campbell, Judith--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Judy Campbell Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 7 July 2007 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:09): Okay, thank you very much for doing the interview. First question I would like to ask is, when you think of the (19)60s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s... And again, the (19)60s and early (19)70s, that period up to about 1973 is still considered part of the (19)60s, a lot of people in the history books consider that. But what comes to your mind when you think of that era? JC (00:00:45): Well, when I think of the (19)60s, I immediately think of Vietnam. It was a teenager during that time and the evening news was, "Vietnam-Vietnam-Vietnam-Vietnam." And friends, and loved ones, and family members went to Vietnam, so the first thing I think of is Vietnam when I think of the (19)60s. I know there has been a lot of emphasis on the Vietnam era, the Woodstock era, and the hippies and everything, but to me, I think that was really a small minority of people, it was just that they were in the press. I mean, there was a large majority of people who were not involved in that, but I think there was an unfair assessment that was the typical person growing up in the (19)60s, was a hippie that went to Woodstock, the love generation kind of thing. SM (00:01:59): Was there one experience for you that set up, the (19)60s began for me, your personal experience? And also, when did you know that period was over based on a personal experience in your life? JC (00:02:18): For me, the (19)60s began in (19)67. As I said earlier, I was just a teenager, I was a kid, I was wrapped up in my school life, my friends. But in (19)67 my brother left for Vietnam, and I remember vividly standing outside the circle of Washington National Airport now Raegan Airport. And it was beautiful January sunny day, we did not even have coats on it was so beautiful. And I took my brother to the airport, and we stood outside the circle, he had on his Green Beret uniform, and he would not let me go into the airport with him. He embraced me, patted me on my fanny, and told me three things which I will never forget. One was, "I am doing this to keep you free. Men with wives and babies should not have to go. My medic skills are needed." And then he turned and he went into the airport, and that was the last time I saw him tragically, 19 days later he was killed. Interestingly enough, my husband and I recently took a trip back to Washington and we went to go to that very spot, as my husband never knew my brother. However, over the years, Richard has often said to me he knows him through me, but based upon the timeframe of when my brother left, Richard said, "I probably checked him in." Because Richard was working at United Airlines at the ticket counter. So we went back to the airport, and it was really funny because the airport's totally different. And we went to the ticket counter, we were hesitating to go to the ticket counter to speak to these ticket agents at their line behind the counter. And we looked at one another and we said, "They are so young, they are not even going to know what we are talking about." Well, a police officer who was very young as well saw us, and came up to us, and evidently they must train the police officers who work at National Airport about the history of the airport, because we told him specifically the spot we were looking for and he directed us to it. And we told him a reason and everything, and he was very gracious. We went to the very spot, and we were able to stand in the spot where I last saw Keith, and wanted to walk through the door that he had walked through, which is now boarded up. The construction crew were working on the door, and they said, "Sorry lady, we just boarded this up. We cannot take the board down, but it is a good thing you came when you did because it is going to be concrete pretty soon, and you are not even going to see the board." So we were able to stand in the doorway per se, with a board behind us, at the exact space where my brother walked through. And the ticket counter is now a storage closet, and the gentleman allowed us a tour of the storage closet. So we went down memory lane, it was a nice venture. But to answer your question about... That was the biggest thing to me, because it was such a rude awakening to me to get out of my own little world, teenager, school, friends. I had a rude awakening to what life was really all about. SM (00:05:42): When did it end? JC (00:05:49): I do not think there is an ending, I think the boomers of the (19)60s' generation have a tremendous impact on the youth today. There seems to be a perception even in the workforce, that there is not always the respect there for the boomers, but there is a two-sided story there. You tend sometimes to have the younger generation think, my education, my knowledge, I may be your boss someday, which sometimes often is very much the case. Your boss is much younger than you are, and sometimes the age of your own children. And then boomers sometimes tend to have that attitude, "Hey, look, I have been here longer than you have. I have climbed the ropes." And there is a lot of truth to be said for both, but there needs to be a respect between the two. And I think with my generation, I really felt that there was more family time. I have a friend of mine who runs a daycare center, she was having the worst time getting the children to sit down for lunch, she could not figure out why she could not control these children to sit down for lunch. So she finally sent a survey home to the parents about, "What time do you have dinner? Where do you eat dinner?" And 99 percent of the responses came back, "Hey, I do not get home from work till 7, 7:30 at night, the kid is almost ready for bed." Bottom line was the children do not have that family time, that quality time, sitting down and eating meals together. Whereas I think there is a lot to be said for the generation where I grew up, it was very important, family time. I mean, my mother was a single parent with four children and worked three jobs, but there were certain routines in our family that she never allowed to not take place. i.e. Sunday night was always popcorn night, The Ed Sullivan Show, and curling up with mom, and time together. And I do not think there is enough of that anymore, I think the younger generation today raising their own children can really learn a lot from us. And our generation as well, we were children of parents from the depression, and our parents wanted to provide for us the things that they did not have. And we were financially, that timeframe in our country, economy wise, I think probably in one of the best shapes we were ever in. And I think the youth today need to understand that it is important for them not to live on credit, but to strive to work to own something, be it their own home, or car, or just to learn the value of money, and not this perception that things should just be handed to them. And I would even go a step further with that, with our freedoms. I think there is just a perception by so many people sadly, that we just assume we can get up in the morning, and go to work, and go to the gym, and go do our extracurricular activities, and not think about anything else. And I am reflecting on a conversation I had with a Gold Star Mother just earlier today, because she had written a letter to the editor, and I was calling her on a different matter. But recently she had a letter to the editor about we are having some warm weather here lately, in the (19)90s, which is a little unseasonably hot for us. And she was saying, "People are complaining about being in this hot weather." She said, "Think about our men and women overseas carrying all their gear and it is 130 degrees." I just think there is a lot... Now that we are in a war again, there is a lot that people do not appreciate and value. And one of the main things that I think they should really appreciate the value of is our freedom. They affectionately call me at work flag lady, because I keep them straight on the flag etiquette issues. And they affectionately call me that, but they also know why I am a flag lady, because it is not a piece of cloth. SM (00:10:42): A very good thought. So what are your thoughts on the boomer generation? And again, when we define the boomer generation, some people will say it's individuals that were born between 1943 and 1961, and then others will say it's those individuals born between (19)46 and (19)64, but basically in that basic timeframe. There has been a lot of criticism by critics like George Will, and Newt Gingrich, and others complaining that the boomer generation is really a lot of the ills of our current society today, we can blame right on that generation, their lifestyles, the way they lived, all the characteristics, their activism, and so forth. What are your thoughts on those individuals who criticize the boomer generation for creating the problems we have in our society, and what are the problems? Again, defining the issues on drugs in our society, the issue of broken families, divorce rates being higher than they have ever been, just the overall characteristics of some of the ills of our society today, and blaming it on the generation. JC (00:12:11): I actually think that that is a real misconception, because I think as I said earlier, the percentage of people who did the drugs, and the love movement, and the hippie movement, and all that, were a minority. And I think it is a very unfair assessment to say that the boomer generation was creative of all these negative things. I do not know if it was, because that generation, there was so much. If you look back at film clips from the (19)60s and (19)70s in the news, you will see so much about Woodstock, and the drugs, and the hippies. And I think even my own children probably thought I drove around in a VW bus with peace symbols on it, that was not true. I think it really... Maybe it is a media to blame, I do not know. But there was just too much emphasis put on that, and I really think it was maybe 5 percent of the people were in that category. Actually, I think it's unfair and unjust to say that, because the boomers I know turned out to be very productive citizens who have good jobs, work hard to provide for their families, and are successful contributing citizens. So, I just do not fall into that acceptance of that. SM (00:13:44): When you think of... JC (00:13:44): When you think of specific individuals, as you mentioned, I think that was a small percentage of people, I truly do. And I just think people tend to sometimes... You want to look at the glass half full or half empty, I am the type of individual that wants to look at it half full. And I think a lot of people then when they're looking at this, are looking at the negative and the half empty glass, and pulling into these individuals. I really do not think that they have the impact that people tend to say that they do. SM (00:14:19): It is interesting because this is 2007, and all you are hearing about in some of the higher education materials is the Summer of Love of 1967, which this is 40 years ago. JC (00:14:30): And you are still hearing that. SM (00:14:31): Yeah, you are still hearing it now, anybody who was in the Bay Area knows that was big. That was big, the Summer of Love, and the music and everything, so there is definitely an impact here. But how many people were actually part of the Summer of Love when you really think about it within the... JC (00:14:59): Geographically, you could not have even gotten all those people in Woodstock if you tried. SM (00:15:01): Right. Yeah, they were kind of happenings for the people that were there and all. But if you look at the boomer generation now, and again, when someone who might counter what you just said in terms of, "Well, the boomers were 70 million strong, and maybe 15 percent were involved in activism and involved in some of the activities, anti-war movement, civil rights, women's movement and so forth." And some of the interviews I have had come up with that 15 percent as well. But the 85 percent who were not involved were subconsciously affected by this. So, when you look at the bloomer generation as a generation, what are the positive qualities that you see in this generation, and what are some of the negative qualities that you have perceive? JC (00:15:52): Well, I would say some of the positive qualities were there was more family time, more openness and communication. And maybe that is why somebody can come back and say all this hippie stuff, whatever, but that was their way of expressing the openness and the feeling of freedom. There was more openness and honesty, and even if there was an era of disagreement, there was a respect with that disagreement, and an acceptance of difference of opinion and values. I would say the least admired, who were rebellious, and tended to lead the forefront for generations. I keep emphasizing that, I do not really think that there were that many of them, I just think there was more emphasis put on them. But I really think our generation had more values, and I think one of the downfalls for some of the values is when they took prayer out of school, I really believe that. I mean, heaven forbid if they ever say, "In God we trust, take that off of our money." I mean, what is next? I mean, when I said there was more openness, I mean, I have friends and still do who were of many different religious persuasions, and they are respecting of my own religion, I am respecting them theirs. But when I was in school, it was a common practice to open the day with prayer, Pledge of Allegiance. And I vividly remember Mrs. Brown, my sixth grade teacher, having the Bible on her desk. I mean, you would never see that today. I remember recently attending a luncheon and there was a veteran there, and we were commenting on the patriotism, " When did you learn how to fold a flag?" We were talking about that. And he said, "I never learned how to fold a flag until I was in the military." And my husband would always ask me, "Where did you learn to fold the flag?" And I said, "In school." In elementary school when we got to school, we stood around the flag pole, we raised the flag, and at the end of the school day we went outside and we sang the song, Day is Done, Gone the Sun, and we dropped the flag down and we folded it. I have been in different buildings, there was a gym that we used to belong to, and they raised the flag every morning. And the gentleman had not raised the flag, and I watched him go to get the flag, and it was in one of those postal plastic mail bins just thrown in there. It just got under my skin to think when they took the flag down at the end of the day, they just balled it up and threw it in there. And then one day I was on the exercise equipment at the gym, and I hopped off, I went running over to the guy at the counter, and he said, "What's wrong?" And I said, "My goodness. Find whoever's responsible for the flag and get it corrected immediately." They had it hanging upside down. And he said, "What does that mean?" And everybody saw all this commotion, and saw how upset I was, and they came running over, and I said, "The flag is upside down." "Well, what does that mean?" I am saying to myself, "You are a veteran." I mean, these are mature people who do not know common things like flag etiquette. I mean, if a flag is upside down it means you are in distress. I mean, that is a very serious situation, especially now we are in a war on terrorism. SM (00:19:57): During that timeframe, if you remember, some flag was burned at times. JC (00:20:03): Oh, my goodness, nothing gets under my skin more than that. And I think that, again, is something that we need to stress to the new generation. When you talk about the flag, and that that happened, that was despicable. When you talk about things in that area that would get under my skin, that would be that. I had friends after my brother was killed who would come into our home, and say months after he was dead, "I cannot come into your house, it is like a shrine." I said, "What do you mean it is like a shrine? We have not changed anything." His picture was on the mantle. I said, "Do you think we are going to take his picture off the mantle because he is dead?" There is an expression, and I am not going to quote it correctly, you may know what it is, it is something to the effect, "You are not dead until you are forgotten." To me, that is the worst thing that we can do, is to forget. So the current generation can learn from us, and could learn from the Vietnam era. And they are building the center down in Washington to help educate the youth of tomorrow, which is vital, and very important for the continuation of our history because we can learn. Yes, a lot of people get upset about the Vietnam War, it can be a very controversial war. I have several coats, and jackets, and things that have been presented to me over the years that I treasure, and some of them have patches on them. And one has a patch on it, "If we lost the war in Vietnam, we would be speaking Vietnamese." I have had friends say to me, "My gosh, why do you keep talking about your brother and everything. The war is over, it is dead. We have lost that war, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah." And I am like, "The worst thing you can ever say to me is that his life was a loss." I hear that and I cringe, almost as much as somebody burning the flag. I cannot go to the Vietnam Memorial wall and look at over 58,000 plus names and say, "That is a loss." It is not a waste, it is not a loss, those are men and women who sacrificed the ultimate, that war was not lost on the battlefield. I am not into politics, I do not care to be into politics, I am thankful that I have the freedom to vote for politicians, and I hopefully pray and trust that democracy will continue to lead us in the road to continue to have the freedoms to express. I will leave the politics up to the politicians, but I will defend and perpetuate the memory of my brother and his brothers as long as there is breath in me. And I think that it is our duty to do that for the citizens today. SM (00:23:10): I am in a hundred percent agreement with everything you are saying here, one thing that really upsets me in a similar vein is you cannot even talk about Vietnam today. I work on a university campus. JC (00:23:23): Now I agree with you, I think that bothers me a lot too. SM (00:23:26): And I work on a university campus, and I go down to the Vietnam Memorial, I put the pictures up in the glass case. I put it up only because it is an educational tool. Every time I go to the Vietnam Memorial on Memorial Day or Veterans Day, I put the pictures up two weeks later after they are developed. I put them in the glass case. I show the pictures, and it is as an education tool, I have been doing that for 15 years. And when we brought The Wall That Heals to our campus, and we had speakers back in 2000, 2001, I keep hearing amongst fellow boomers that this is a new generation, they had different issues. "Just remember, Steve, when you were young, were you talking about World War II?" It upsets me, because I think we have to really make sure that history is never forgotten. And what is interesting is, if students do not know it, then it is our responsibility to be educators too. We have to be educators here, we all have to be educators. And so, what you are talking about, about your brother, is your brother can never be forgotten, that he did give the ultimate price. Those 58,000 names... When I go down to Washington now, I always go to the Vietnam Memorial first, it is my generation, but I am also going to where my dad served in World War II, who did not live long enough to see that wall. So, I go there and I go to the Pacific War section, and I take my dad down, and I take my dad's picture, and he is with me. And I go over to the Pacific and my dad is there, and so it is about serving your country, it's about giving the ultimate. And that is why Vietnam vets, you always say welcome home to them. I do not care who they are, where they are, I welcome them home. Even though no one said it to them in 30 years, I am going to say it to them. JC (00:25:46): We were up in Upper Darby, Pennsylvania, and we were at a store, friend of ours has a store there. And this gentleman had come in the store, and he had on a Vietnam cap. And we were talking, and then we left about the same time, and I was parked on the side of the street, and he was walking across the street. And as he left to go across the street, I said, "Thank you for serving." He got to the island of the street, he turned around and he came back, and he got right in my face, and he said, "What did you say?" And I got a little skittish. I mean, here I am on the street alone in Upper Darby, with this man in my face. And I said, "Thank you for serving." And he said, "Nobody has ever said that to me." So, I echo your sentiments, that it is our responsibility to show the example that we are to thank our veterans of all wars, of Korea, of World War II, Granada. I mean, there are a number of conflicts that people have forgotten about, Beirut. There's all kinds of conflicts that people tend to forget about. When people talk about the Vietnam War, and a negative concept that they have of that timeframe of life. Forget it, get over it. I have something that I always give back to them, and I share this with Vietnam veterans. And there is one Vietnam veteran who is very dear to our... They are all dear to our hearts. But I remember being at a reunion in Rochester, Minnesota, and I remember vividly being in the Fellowship Room hospitality suite, and this veteran who resembles the country western singer... Oh, what is his name? SM (00:27:43): Current? Willie Nelson? JC (00:27:46): Willie Nelson. Actually, without having this man's permission to use his name, I will not use his name, but he knows who I am talking about. I call him Willie, because he is the spitting image of him, he could be his twin. We went in deep conversation, this group at our table, about PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, which a number of youth today do not even know what that means. And I looked at him and I said to him, "Do you remember the best things that ever happened to you in your life? You have got your college degree, you got married, you have had your children, in whatever order." We all start laughing. I said, "Think about the most positive things that have ever happened to you in your life. Have you forgotten them? Of course not, so how in the world can anybody expect you to forget the most difficult, the most painful, the most challenging times that have happened to you in your life? You cannot forget it, it is what molds you, and shapes you, and makes you who you are. And for people to tell people, forget it, it's passed, it is just not possible, you cannot do that." I was talking to Gold Star Mother, [inaudible]. JC (00:29:02): Yeah. I talked... Was talking to a Gold Star mother, several Gold Star mothers this morning. And one lost her son in Iraq in December of last year. And she told me she does not go out of the house. Now is not that awful? And we are going to work on that. We are going to change that. And these are the kind of things that the generation today. With this current war, you have some men that are being deployed five, six times. Who is cutting the grass? Who is fixing the broken garbage disposal? Who is helping with the leaky roof? We need to be banding together to help these families. And I think this is the thing that we can learn so much from the Vietnam Era, and the Vietnam veterans are doing that. They never want the veterans today to be treated in the manner in which they were. I think another area that is very sensitive but strongly needs to be addressed. Very strongly I believe. And this is our churches. Our very churches who profess love and forgiveness have slammed the door, many of them, on our veterans. I have spoken to a Vietnam veteran who... well, I did not personally speak to him, but I know someone that did. And I value this person's words, so I know it is true. This Vietnam veteran came back from Vietnam, bought a motorcycle in California, drove to Indiana to see his mother. It was Easter Sunday morning. Obviously he was very dirty and grubby. He had just driven across country. And the deacon stopped him as he is going into the church and said, "You cannot go in there looking like that." And he said, "You do not understand. I just came back from Vietnam. It's Easter Sunday. My mother's in there. She does not even know I am home." And the deacon said, "You do not understand. You cannot go in there looking like that." Well, I will give to this generation this. No, I do not agree in today's attire. If that would happen today. The way kids dress today. SM (00:31:04): I know it. JC (00:31:04): He would be welcome church I am part of. I wear blue jeans to church now. But there is... We have to have this ability to embrace one another and accept one another. And I think too back in the era when I grew up. There was a lot of unjust things done to African Americans. I never understood that and I still do not. Because when I grew up. I grew up in Arlington, Virginia. And I went to Washington Lee High School. To the same high school Sandra Bullock went to. The brother and sister. I cannot think of their names. Warren Beatty. Shirley McClain. SM (00:31:53): Oh, wow. JC (00:31:56): Of course I graduated much after their time. Much. SM (00:31:59): Yeah. JC (00:31:59): They graduated way before me. But anyway. I used to walk home from high school and there was a development near us called Halls Hill. Only African-Americans lived there. Only whites lived where we lived. But my girlfriend and I, Kathy Clark, we would walk home together. We would walk through my development first. I would go home and she would walk on her merry way. Kathy to me was not black, African American, whatever. Even today, if I get an application in a store or a survey or whatever. They will have the question on there. What your race is. SM (00:32:41): Yeah. JC (00:32:45): I always cross it out and I go, "Why does this matter?" And I will put, "There is one color and it is red. It is blood red." And that is the way I was raised. I have never understood this black and white issue because it is not the way I was raised. Now our daughter, when she was in college. Consequently, our children were not raised that way. She went to college in the south. She had a job off campus and she called me. Waitressing. And she called me. She said, "Oh mom, you would not believe this." She is 32 years old, so this is not that long ago. She said, "You would not believe it. We are having lunch break. And the blacks are sitting on one side of the room and the whites are on the other. So my friend who I really talk with them all the time is over with the blacks. So I walk over there to sit with them. And they say, 'You want to sit here?'" She said, "Well, why would not I want to sit here?" Now this is still going on today. This is despicable. SM (00:33:53): Yeah. This is a big issue. Again, in higher ed. Because of the fact that... If Dr. King were alive today. Always say if Dr. King were alive. But it was all about integration. And now we have the decision of self-segregation. And to me, it's shocking. And the Boomers who went through this era of the Civil Rights Movement and all the things that happened. And again, a lot of the young people of color and people who were not of color who did not experience this when they were young do not know what it was like. And I do not know what the parents have done to educate their kids. It gets into a question then. When you were young and a lot of people I was around felt that era, the (19)60s, early (19)70s, was a time when as a young people we could change the world. JC (00:34:52): Oh, yeah. SM (00:34:54): We were going to be the most. And there was this feeling. It's almost an arrogance. But at that time, it was just a feeling, I do not even know if we thought about arrogance. But a feeling that we are the most unique generation in American history. And we are going to end racism, we are going to end sexism, we are going to end... We are going to have peace in the world. We are going to do all things. Your thoughts on that kind of an attitude that was held by a lot of people in the Boomer generation. And just your thoughts on... Thank you. They were the unique generation. Looking at it from when you were young and looking at it today. JC (00:35:33): You know I agree. We were a unique generation. And I think it was the values and the principles that we were raised with, and we are willing to stand behind those values and principles. SM (00:35:53): What are the values? When you mention the values and the principles. What are the values and the principles again that you felt that... JC (00:35:58): Respect. There was no way I would go over to a friend's house and... Say the mother's name is Diane Smith. There would be no way I would say, "Hey, Diane. How are you today?" It would be, "Hi, Mrs. Smith. How are you today?" And we had chores we had to do. Again, as I told you my mother was a single parent with four kids. And we had a bulletin board going down the steps. And we each had our list of chores. And you better bet your sweet bippy those chores better be done, or you were not going to have any extracurricular activities. Be it to the football game or going out for hamburgers on Saturday. My mother always took me out for hamburgers and milkshake on Saturday. I do not recommend doing that today. You have got to spend in another way for that today. But they are... I think today's generation and the... I look at the youth in my office. I do not know when they have time to spend with their children. I am fortunate. I have a very brief commute to work. But some of these people have... Are on the road 45 minutes, hour, two hours a day just to get to work. How can you really have quality time with your children when you get home? I do not know how they do it. And then again, I think... I get back to the values of not living on credit. I look at some of these kids in my office today and hear where they live and go, "My goodness. How can you afford to live there? How can you afford those taxes?" And they keep wanting more and more and bigger and bigger. Some girl in my office working on... She and her husband are working on fixing up their house. And I said, "Oh, that is wonderful. You are doing all this work around the house." Oh, yeah. We are selling it. Buy bigger and bigger. They want bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And how are they paying for this? I think they can learn from... Our generation, as I said earlier, had the parents from The Depression. And there was almost an extreme there because they had nothing. SM (00:38:06): Right. JC (00:38:15): And then they want to provide for us and give us. They need to learn the values of saving a buck. Having respect for their elders. How many times I have been at work carrying a... They are not necessarily work, but some of. Because I do have a wonderful office. I do not want to give that perception. But I am sitting there loaded with grocery packages or whatever. And this 25-year-old to 30-year-old kid walks out the door and left the door kicking in the face while you are standing there struggling. And I am like... I come home and I... Next time I talk to my son, he is 34, I give him the big lecture. "Mother, what are you giving the big lecture for? I did not slam the door in your face." My point is you see a lady carrying groceries, you open the door for her. Now it is amazing to me that one time I said thank you to a gentleman for doing that. And he said to me. I could not believe it. It was at the post office. This was just a couple years ago. And he said to me, "Well, I hesitated doing that." And I said, "Well, why did you hesitate doing that?" And he said, "Because one time I did that and the woman [inaudible]." I got to pay this eventually. He just kept... And now they have the soda machines with the... We were out a couple weeks ago with our kids and we walked by a soda machine. And my son said, "Oh, you want to bottle of water?" I said, "Sure." I started to go in my purse to get out of dollar bill or whatever it was. He said, "Oh no, mom. I will get it." And he gets out a credit card. Flashes it in front of the screen and goes. SM (00:39:53): Yeah. JC (00:39:53): And I said, "I do not understand. Why did you do that? Why do not you use money?" He said, "Nobody carries money anymore." SM (00:39:53): Yeah. JC (00:39:53): And I said, "Well, does this mean then that you are managing money well? Because you can keep track of even every dollar you spend for every bottle of water or soda you buy?" SM (00:39:53): And what was his answer? JC (00:39:53): Yeah. He said, "I can." That is okay. He has got two kids. SM (00:40:19): Getting back to this. We talked about the percentage of people involved in activism. I want to ask you about your thoughts on activism as a whole. Activism is defined as... Who defines it? A history professor said this to me yesterday. He says, "Whose definition is this?" And I said, "Well, [inaudible] would say that activism is basically individuals who want to make a difference in this world." People who want to make a difference in the world is to me what the definition of activism is. But there seems to be a... In higher education today, a fear of activism. And looking at activism as a negative activism. Because they kept perceptions of what it was in the past. They think of the (19)60s. They think of disruption. They think of shutting things down. They think of nothing but negative. What is your thought on... When you think of the anti- war movement, how important were the young people of the Boomer generation in ending the war in Vietnam and basically their involvement? What are your thoughts on their involvement in the anti-war movement? Knowing that your brother served and died, yet there were young people that were out there protesting that war. The anti-war movement itself. Your thoughts on those individuals. I have had some conversations with people down at the wall. Some other mothers who have lost their... JC (00:41:38): I even watched recently more protests going on in our area. Off of two and two. And I... It is very emotional to me when I see people protesting war. And I just want to go up to them and really get involved. And I know that I should not act on emotion, so I do not do it. I tend to be a very emotional person anyway. I look at it as... Because of men like my brother. Because of men and women that are on that wall in Vietnam. The Vietnam Memorial Wall. And the men and women that died in Iraq. Because of what they did for our freedom and our democracy. It is all for them and afforded these people the right to protest. I do not agree with them. With the current war, nobody wants war. I do not know what the answer is with this war. I just heard today, 10 more Americans were killed. I find sometimes I cannot watch the news anymore. And I know that is narrow minded. Putting on blinders that way, going to that extreme. It is a reality that we are in. I read something one time, and... I read that the dreams we shared as a family, referring to when my brother was killed. The dreams we shared as a family were changed forever on that fateful day. But as the years progressed and grief lifted its ugly veil, I found continued healing. A belief that he is watching every step that I make and [inaudible]. It has not been easy along this journey, and oftentimes it's very painful. But just as my mother taught us, if you believe in something give it your all and always remember to do good for others. [inaudible]. But what really counts in man's heart is the ability to have freedom to express that heart. Your life, the life of my brother, [inaudible]. You will always be missed and we will never forget you. [inaudible] SM (00:44:11): Here we go. It is back. The batteries were getting low. I could tell. JC (00:44:16): Getting back to what I was saying. Their activism tends to have a negative connotation I think. When people think of activism, they think of... I think most people probably get a negative conception of what the word means. But I tend to agree with you. Activism is giving your all to something that you believe in. And I have an incredible tenacity about me to do that. If I believe in something, I do not care how bad somebody stomps on me or hurts me. And believe me, it has happened. If I still believe in something strongly, I will continue to pursue it with my all. That is the way I was raised. That is the way my brother was raised. That is why my brother did what he did. He heroically... He was an American hero. First of all, he had his honorable discharge. He had already seen combat duty during the Dominican Republic crisis. He served with the 82nd Airborne Division. 11th Special Forces. He had his honorable discharge. He had no reason to even go back into the military. But he too was raised with strong values and principles that one person can make a difference. They believe in something and they know it is right. Give it your all. And that is what he did. He reenlisted because he was a good medic. One of the best. And we have heard this over and over and over. They recently renamed the Fort Sam Houston Library in his memory. It is now the Keith A. Campbell Memorial Library. At the library dedication. After the dedication, we were all at dinner. Keith Sergeant from the 11th Special Forces shared a story about us that we had never heard. And that was when they were out on maneuvers. And Bob had walked into a tree branch. And if it had not been for Keith's medical treatment on site, Bob would have probably lost his eye. Now mind you, he was a teenager. I look at my own children and go, "Can my kids do that?" So, this kid was a phenomenal medic. He was not the kind of kid who liked going to school. Do not give him a clock and say, "What makes it... Do an essay on what makes it tick." He would be taking it apart and putting it back together to figure out what makes it tick. He was a real hands on person. And everything he learned, he learned the hard way and he did a dad gum good job. So, when he went off to Vietnam to save lives, he did do exactly that. And I feel very blessed that I have met two of the men that he died saving. How many people are that fortunate? To me those... SM (00:47:17): Those people. Did he save them in Vietnam? JC (00:47:20): Yes. SM (00:47:20): Wow. JC (00:47:22): Yes. One gentleman. Keith's body laid on him for five hours. There was a firefight. A very bad firefight that came up overnight. They were actually in the planning stages for Operation Junction City. And lo and behold, they had to put everything on a screeching halt for Operation Junction City because here comes Operation Big Springs. You will find very little on Operation Big Springs. Very little. Which is very interesting. But all of the medics were down with this one company. And Keith and his buddy Ken were with another company and heard it over the radio. Keith left the safety of his perimeter to go. And as he started to go, Ken pulled him down and said, "Do not go. Whoever goes is not going to come back." And Keith pushed him down and said, "I am going. You have a wife and a baby." Now remember what he told me before he left Vietnam? One of the things? Men with wives and babies should not have to go. Ken literally told me that Keith save his life by doing that. Keith crawled through a hail of grenades and bullets. Now mind you, this is just three days after getting the Bronze Star for another battle. He was not stopped in 19 days. I do not know when that kid slept. I look at the geographic location of these different battles he was in, because I have been really doing a lot of research since (19)99. I cannot believe the adrenaline that kid must have had or how he ever got done what he did. I just do not know. I have talked to veterans that would tell me... It is funny. I do not even know why I was thinking about that this morning because I guess I was talking. These conversations I had with all these Gold Star mothers that is reflected. Brought a lot of stuff back to me. But I was thinking this morning about how these men did not sleep when they were over there. And one told me. All the monsoons and the rain they had, but they had ponchos. But he never took his poncho out because it would rattle and make noise. Think about a man over there who probably was a snorer. He would probably be afraid to have fallen asleep. SM (00:49:47): Oh, yeah. JC (00:49:47): So these men were in jungle with you name what. And he was just nonstop. But anyway. (00:49:56): Keith picked up a rifle of another man that was killed along the way. Took that with him. Shot a sniper in the tree. I have the original article from The Evening. SM (00:50:13): Okay. JC (00:50:14): There used to be two newspapers in Washington DC. The Washington Post and the Evening Sun. SM (00:50:18): Star. JC (00:50:19): Star. My mother always... Despite the hardships of being a single parent with four kids, she managed to subscribe to both of the newspapers. Because she always told us, "There are always going to be many sides to a story. You need to read them all." And you would. You would see the same story on the news. And you would read The Post and you would read The Star and you could hear three different things of the same thing. But anyway, I have the original newspaper article that said there was a sniper killed in the tree. One Viet Cong killed. Da-da-da-da. And then I knew that was the Viet Cong that Keith had killed. I had mixed emotions about that too because did not that young man have a mother? SM (00:50:59): Right. JC (00:51:00): But anyway. Keith reached Eddie Taurus. Drug him to a nearby... Gave him enough medical aid to stop his bleeding and then drug him to a nearby tree where he literally... Because there were more snipers. The guys used to... Snipers used to tie themselves in the trees. He knew there was not enough coverage for the sniper in the tree. That up in the tree. In the tree where Keith had drug Eddie to for that tree to protect him. So Keith used his body for the other portion of Eddie to protect him. And in doing so, he got shot and he fell on Eddie. And it took them another five hours to pull the two of them out of there. Now I was blessed to meet Eddie back in (19)99. Flew out to California to meet him for the first time. Had a wonderful, warm... You can only imagine. Incredible meeting. But the whole weekend if he were facing me, he just clammed up. He could not look at me. He could not talk. And I did not get it. I could not understand it. It was the house. The owner of the home where we were staying who brought it to my attention. She said, "You do not get it. He sees your brother in your eyes." SM (00:52:19): Oh, wow. JC (00:52:20): So, I approached him and I said, "Eddie, we have come this far to find you after all these years. You do not even look at me." And he said, "Vicky's right, you do not get it. Your brother was on me for five hours. I see Campbell. I see you. I cannot look at you." SM (00:52:38): Oh, wow. JC (00:52:42): And even at the library dedication. As long as I was not looking at him. But I kind of got off the path a little bit, which I tend to do. But to answer your question about what I think about the people who protest and the activism and everything. I think the men and women who died have given them the freedoms to exercise their opinion. And though I may not always agree with them, we should have the opportunity to respectfully disagree. And I am thankful, very thankful, even though I disagree with some of them. Very thankful that they have that opportunity to have the freedom. There was an email exchange going around for a while. And I do not like all this tit for tat email stuff that people send you. And sometimes emails can... You can go to the office and you do emails all day long. I do not want to come home and do them at night. All this nonsensical stuff sometimes that comes around. Do not waste my time with it. If it is more than a paragraph, do not bother sending it to me. But anyway, I got this one email that was interesting to me about what's your favorite color? What is your greatest fear? What is this? And it was interesting to see family members and friends respond to some of these things. One of the questions on there. What is your greatest fear? It was very interesting to see what people said their greatest fear was. My greatest fear is to be sitting at a sidewalk cafe in America, having a cup of cappuccino, and having somebody drive by and throw a bomb. And that is something that has always been a fear of mine. See this is the difference. Even back in (19)67. Even though my mother. My mother was an extraordinary woman in the process of educating us. We understood even back then what communism meant. We understood that there were people on the other side of the world that did not have refrigerators. That if they wanted milk or eggs or perishable items, that they literally were standing in blocks long to get those things. And then they would have to consume them because they did not have a refrigerator to put it in. We knew that there were people who lived on the other side of the world that could not go into a church or a synagogue or whatever of their choice. We were raised with that. In other words, the values we were raised with were so strong. That our freedom and our democracy is such a gift. It was so instilled into us. That is why Keith did what he did. And that is why I continue to perpetuate his memory. Not only because he was an American hero, which he really was. A true hero. I did not even realize what a hero he was until (19)99. It is because I call it grief lifting its ugly veil. I related very much to this mother today who said she did not go out of the house. I went out of the house because I had to. And I was a sibling. I was not a mother. A Gold Star mother. I was merely a sibling. Then I talked to another mother this morning who told me her 42-year-old daughter will not talk about it. Her son that died. And I explained to her. I understand that. That is the way I was until (19)99. And I called it grief lifting its ugly veil. And I went through all my brother's memorabilia at that time. And then that is when I realized what he really had done. Oh my gosh, this man was a hero. And he would never want to tell you. He would be... He would be sitting here right now saying, "Judy, get off it." And the majority of the men that I know that went over there feel the same way. Point being, he did a job that they were sent to do and they did it with their all. And that is the same for the men and women today. And a lot of these kids today go to the workplace who... We had the draft back then. People are not understanding. These people that are over there today enlisted. SM (00:57:21): Right. JC (00:57:22): What a sacrifice. They know what they are getting into. Maybe some of the National Guard did not know they were going to have five or six tours. SM (00:57:31): What you are really talking about here is... Considering the next question I have is about healing. One of the things. One of the most... Two or three of the most important questions I have been asking every individual in this interview process. We know that the Vietnam Memorial when it was built in (19)82. We know the purpose. To heal a generation as Janice Brooks' book talks about. But we knew it was about a healing. The Vietnam vets. Healing their families. Paying tribute... SM (00:58:03): The Vietnam vets healing their families, paying tribute to those who served people who gave the ultimate price, remembrance. And healing... I am asking a two-part question. How much do you feel that wall has done to heal the Vietnam veterans and the Vietnam generation, which includes the 70 million boomers? It includes the individuals who did not serve. It includes those who were for and against the war. We all know about the unbelievable divisions that took place at that time, as some people have said, historians have said, we came very close to a second civil war in with all the things that were happening with the cities up in flames and dealing with issues here at home. And then the war itself had really divided families, generation gap. Just your thoughts on healing, because you are talking about dealing with your brothers, your loss of your brother. So just your thoughts on the whole healing process where- JC (00:59:24): The Vietnam veterans. The Vietnam Memorial Wall, you will have to forgive me for choking up, was the greatest gift that America gave the Vietnam veterans. The Vietnam veterans were treated in despicable manners. Spat on, had to change their uniform when they would come home. I know Vietnam veterans to this day that will not tell you they were a Vietnam veteran for fear of the way that they are going to be treated. That is just incomprehensible to me. Men who, good night, look what they ate, look what they slept. Look what they went through for 12, 13 months, whatever, had their buddies blown up right in front of them. Come home and get told horrible... I have not even had Gold Star mothers tell me that their son deserved to die because he was a baby killer. Now, first of all, were you there to see them kill a baby? I remember one veteran telling me, "I came home and I was on the elevator in the Pittsburgh airport and there was this little old lady who had an umbrella and she turned around and she started waving that umbrella at me. And it was one of those ones with a big point on the end of it and said, you baby killer, you a baby killer." And he said, "You know what, ma'am? I never killed a baby and I never hit an old lady. But if you do not get that umbrella out of my face and quit threatening me, I am going to do it." Where do people get off making these assumptions and treating people in such manners when they themselves were not even there? And this conception of all Vietnam veterans did drugs. They did not do drugs. I know Vietnam veterans today who are successful MDs, successful lawyers, professionals. Yes, it is like anything. You have some people who cannot pull themselves up from the bootstraps and move on with their lives for whatever reason, or try to milk the system and do not want to go to work every day. So, they try to get somebody to pay their way of the rest of their life. That is with anything. Look at car accidents. People do that with car accidents all the time, milk the system with that. But the majority of the Vietnam veterans I know are respected human beings who not only gave to our country then but are continuing to give back to our country today. And the Vietnam Memorial Wall is the only safe haven that they could have to go to where they were not judged, where they could pay their respects to those that they were with. And the thing that is the most painful I think for them though, I cannot walk in their shoes and say, what they feel. I can only imagine because I listen to a lot of them, talk about that survivor guilt. They go to the wall and they often think, look at the reflection and think, "Why is it not me on there? Why am I standing here and you're there?" And it was funny, I have always heard everybody talk about the wall with reflection, reflection, reflection. I am like, I do not get it. I do not see the wall in reflection when I go. And people look at me like, "Huh, how can you not see it?" It is because my go, Keith's name is way up there and I am looking up at a name so I am not looking straight ahead. So, I do not see a reflection. But then I have also heard the wall described as angels’ wings, which I think is beautiful. A beautiful description. So, I think the Vietnam Memorial Wall is the great, again, I reiterate that, the greatest gift our nation has ever given to not only our country for future generations, but specifically to the veterans themselves, were so mistreated. Now for healing for me personally, and again, it can only be spoken on a personal level because I do a lot of work with Gold Star Families because it is really where my heart is. Every time I hear of another family who has joined the Gold Star Family ranks, my heart shatters. It shatters because I know their lives have changed forever. I have been privy to the conversations from some Gold Star Families that I will not repeat the conversations, but I can say was certainty that people have no concept unless they are a Gold Star Family of how traumatic it is, and the worst thing we can do is forget. I remember a friend of mine years ago, her son was six years old and he died of Reye Syndrome, which is taking Aspirin and you have a fever and they do not do that anymore. And it was just up here around the corner at the card store. And I saw her in this card store. It was shortly after her son was killed. SM (01:05:12): Died. JC (01:05:14): Died, I am sorry. Died. And I [inaudible] my way in and out of the aisles to get my cards and get back out of there. And I come home. It's not a half hour later the phone rings. "Judy, it is Carol Lee. I know you saw me in the card store. Why did not you talk to me?" I said, "Carol Lee, I would tell you I did not know what to say to you." And she said, "You know what the worst thing you can do?" And it was a good thing she was a friend because only a friend can get away with this. She said, "The worst thing you can do is what you did. It is like Kevin never existed. Kevin was my only son. If you do not know what to say to me, simply say, I am praying for your broken heart, which I know you are, but do not act like I do not exist." So that is what I tell people. You see Gold Star Families because I think 90 percent of the time people do avoid people for the very reason that I did. You do not know what to say. You have mixed emotions because you think, "Oh, they are having a good day. If I say something, it is going to make them feel bad." But what people do not understand is we never forget anyway. So, if we are having a good day and you think you are going to bring us down by bringing it up, I got news for you. We will never forget. We were blessed to recently be at our daughter's for the birth of our first grandson. Even my husband does not know this. I am holding this beautiful baby to my breath and loving him and praying he may never see more. That he may grow up in a country of freedom and that he will someday learn through going through the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Center the sacrifices made for him to have the life that he hopefully have. Okay? And then my next breath was, "Keith, why aren't you here to hold him? Why are not you here?" We never forget holidays and Christmas. There is always in our mind's eye, in our heart and at place at that table always. And there always will be. And this is for all of these families. And I would like to encourage people to realize that it's okay to say something because when I talk about this Gold Star Mother today, the only thing she says she does is she goes out in her garden and plays with her flowers and that is it. She does not go any... She send me the invitation again about the luncheon. I lost it. I do want to come. And then she said this to me, "I do not go anywhere by myself." And I said, "Well how is your husband with all of this?" "My husband does not talk about it." And see, this is why it shatters me when I hear about another Gold Star Family, because I know this. It divides families. They not only lose their loved one, but it shatters relationships in walls of the family unit itself. Because the biggest mistake we all make when we lose somebody we love, no matter what the circumstances is. I have done hospice work in the past and this is what I will tell the hospice people, the families. Grieve together. We do not do that. Grief has so many facets to it. You have guilt. You have, why me? Shock. You have all these different emotions with it and you stay so... I remember vividly when Keith died. I mean, so angry with my mother for years over it. I remember laying on the living room sofa, we used to have a picture over the fireplace. It was of a seascape and had a warm wood frame to it and a picture light on it. And that was like the nightlight because our house was the revolving door. Everybody came from campus and back then, you did not have to lock your doors. We never did lock our doors. It was always the revolving door. You never knew when Keith was coming home. You never knew when anybody was coming in the room. But after Keith died, I remember laying on the sofa screaming at the top of my lungs. Now it was a small house, much smaller than this. You cannot tell me my mother did not hear me screaming. Never came downstairs. No, we never grieved together. My sister never grieved together. My sister still has not gotten over it. I have not gotten it over yet. I remember Nancy Reagan recently saying on an interview about President Reagan's death, of course things must be getting better. And she looked right at the reporter and said, "Actually it gets worse." She is absolutely correct. The only thing time does is help with controlling your physical outside emotions. In other words, helping you to get a grip and not be a blubbering idiot in front of people. That is the only thing time does. Healing will never happen in the respect. Totally. Because a piece of you has been taken out and cut out. I had a double mastectomy almost 15 years ago. And I remember going to a counselor about it and before it happened, because that was part of the protocol I was in. I went through Hopkins and they're really top-notch. And that was part of the protocol, you had to do that. This breast cancer surveillance unit program. I went through and I went to the counselor and she said, "Well, I will be perfectly honest with you, I do not know..." Kudos to her because she was honest. She said, "I do not know what to tell you what you are going to expect." She said, "But I do know that from what you told me about your brother, you have experienced loss in your life. And so, I am here to tell you, you are probably going to experience the same thing as you did in the loss of your brother. Why me? Guilt, was it something I ate? Was it where I lived? Disbelief, shock. So that is what happens." And she was absolutely correct. You were telling me about a family member in your life having a health challenge and to a certain level, they too will experience in that way. It is a normal chain of events for all people. And like I said earlier, you do not forget the best things that have ever happened to you in your life. Do not anybody tell me to forget the worst because I cannot. But it is my obligation and responsibility to go about living my life in a positive way so it does not demean and bring other people down. I think if enough of us can do good things by educating, and this is my goal in life, educate every American that they know what a Gold Star is. A Blue Star, a Silver Star. They do not know. Even people in the military do not know. SM (01:12:59): See, when I met you in Washington, I mentioned to you and the person who was the national director of the Gold Star Mothers. Yeah. I think it would be fantastic to have a program at a university where Gold Star mothers came in and spoke. JC (01:13:14): Absolutely. SM (01:13:14): Because you never see that. And obviously we are in another war now, but the mothers who have lost... And there is also, I think it is Mrs. Zaalberg, you may have seen it on the national news. She lost her son in Iraq last year. She goes to the Arlington every day and sits in front of the stone in Section 60. Now she is the only one that does it. Everybody comes every day. And she was on the national news because here it is, the middle of the winter, it is almost like a blizzard out there. And she is sitting in front of... They let her in even in days when they are closed, because she has to be in with her son. That might be a good person to link up with. I forget what channel, I think it was Zaalberg. I have been to Section 60 twice, just there last week, I think her last name was Zaalberg. But obviously to be there every day, 365 days a year is unbelievable. JC (01:14:15): That is unbelievable. SM (01:14:17): And she is the only one. Everybody else comes there. But I went into the Section 60 there and I saw it is very sad. JC (01:14:25): Oh, gosh. SM (01:14:26): Again, the healing for you, the healing for the vets, but how about the nation? The nation was torn apart with the war and a lot of things. JC (01:14:36): Nobody wants to be torn. SM (01:14:38): Do you think we are still divided from that era? Do you think you still have the divisions from that era based on- JC (01:14:44): I do, but I do not think to the degree that we did then. If you look back then on the news reports and you would see all the protestors, you would see mobs and mobs and mobs of them. I just saw a news clip the other day after Lady Bird Johnson was killed with President Johnson standing in the White House. And you could hear in the background all the protestors and the things they were saying to you, "How does it feel to let another family lose a son?" You could hear that because that is how close the sidewalk. But you do not see that protesting on the news like you did back in the (19)60s. So, to answer your question, yes, but not to the same degree. SM (01:15:34): I have always had the thought that, and like your opinion on this too, that those individuals who were in the anti-war movement, who were, whether they be in college or not in college or whatever, that when they bring their kids now and their grandchildren to the wall... But all kids say, "Dad or mom, what did you do during that time?" And then of course the 85 percent who supposedly never was involved in the anti-war or any activism or served, that whole generation, you are- JC (01:16:15): I would like to know what they say to their kids as they come to the wall. SM (01:16:19): I think that if you have ever sat down in Janice [inaudible], I think this is a story that really has not been discussed. JC (01:16:24): I think you are right. SM (01:16:26): Because I think the wall is become... To me, it is such a symbol to everything. It is about healing. JC (01:16:36): It is. SM (01:16:39): And it is about caring for those who gave their lives. There's no room for politics here. It is a time to reflect. It is a time to think. And it is also a time to reevaluate what you did when you were young. And I think that wall does that to every boomer. JC (01:17:04): Yeah. That is- SM (01:17:05): No matter who they were or where they were at that time. And there is millions of stories, oral histories that need to be told on this. JC (01:17:11): I think you are right. SM (01:17:12): And hopefully I am going to be part of it because I got to devote the rest of my life to a lot of these things when I leave higher education. The wall, I go down there on my own a lot. I was just down there last week and I go to the wall and there's no ceremonies happening. I just sit there on the bench and reflect. JC (01:17:28): See, that is my dream to go in the middle of the night. I have this punch list of things I want to do before I die. One was go skydiving, I did do that. That was the best thing I ever did. SM (01:17:41): Wow. JC (01:17:42): That was awesome. One is to ride into Washington DC in the middle of the night on a Harley. And I do not even own a Harley, I did not even have a motorcycle license and go to the wall at night when nobody was around. Because when you go during the day, there is all these people there and you just do not feel like... I worry too much about what other people think. You see some kid who is like 12, 13 walking down towards you. You do not want to be standing there, blubbering idiot. And my husband will say, "Well, why do you care? If you want to blubber, blubber?" And sometimes you cannot control it. But I want to be there in the middle of the night. Just by myself. SM (01:18:26): I have been there around 12 midnight. But the one thing about they say about the area, it is not safe because there has been some murders at the Lincoln Memorial and that is why they actually closed off the back area there. Because two years ago there were two murders. As you look at Arlington, people had wandered around the back and then they were murdered there. So, I cannot believe... There should be a lot more security there. I think the security should be in that whole area should be increased so people cannot- JC (01:19:02): Oh, I remember when 9/11 happened. Of course, it's like President Kennedy's death. We all know where we were and what we were doing. But I remember when that one plane was not quite accounted for. I remember vividly walking into the lady's room, going into the stall and just praying with all my strengths. Dear God, do not let them destroy [inaudible]. I was so afraid of that. SM (01:19:31): One thing about the wall that I now know is that if anything ever did happen to the wall, they have backups for the wall. They are made already because those are not the originals. So, some of the originals, I think there is at least one or two of them taken out already. They wear out. That is why they do not allow people to walk on top anymore. Nothing will ever happen to that wall. Because they know in time that certain sections will have to be replaced. The names will all be on there, it will just be replaced. It is there forever. JC (01:20:11): Good. SM (01:20:12): Just like the World War II memorials. So, they are there forever. They have backup plans. And that is the first thing I ask because that is why they stopped the people walking because in the early years- JC (01:20:21): Personal etchings. SM (01:20:23): Yeah. Do you want to take a break here or I got a- JC (01:20:29): Oh no, I am fine. If you are fine. SM (01:20:30): I take a... Maybe, well- JC (01:20:33): Why do not you take a break? Because you are the one that is in there. SM (01:20:35): Oh, this has been fascinating because it allows you to be able to share your thoughts. And certainly, before I leave, I do not know if you have a picture of your brother, picture of you with your brother, because that is very important. And certainly, when I go down to the Vietnam memorial- JC (01:20:52): Yeah. He lives this with me. SM (01:20:57): I guess about the healing. This business about healing, just your thoughts, do you think that many members of the generation are having healing problems that were not veterans? JC (01:21:10): Yeah, and I think I am thinking about it more after what you just said. I bet there is a lot of guilt from some of those people that protested. I bet they never envisioned the Vietnam Memorial Wall being the most visited memorial in Washington DC. And I would be very interested in going back and talking to some of them myself to see how they are raising their kids. Oh, yeah. I think there's guilt with... We all have guilt for whatever reason. SM (01:21:41): I have always thought, and I have had this from some of the people, do you like them or not that when you think of the people who served, and when you think of the people who protested, who were sincere in their protests, and then you think of the 85 percent of the 70 million that did nothing. How are those 85 thinking? Because those people that protested the war may not change one bit. You do not treat a veteran poorly, but they will be very solid in their beliefs against the war. But the question I have is, I am a little child with a father or mother. Mom and dad. What did you do? Did you serve or did you protest? JC (01:22:32): I remember my mother worked at the Pentagon when Keith was killed. And she would periodically, not all the time, but sometimes on her way to work, stop at Keith's grave before coming to work. And she went to Keith's grave, now I remember I grew up in Arlington. So that whole section where Keith was buried was nothing but a grassy field when I was a kid. I watched them turn that grassy field into... When Keith was buried, those green berets were in mud up to their knees. Precision. Because it was not grassed over and they were all the temporary markers. SM (01:23:13): Right. JC (01:23:14): But my mother came to work and she saw this tarp laying over Keith's grave, and she thought, "Well, they are digging more graves and everything." She said, "Maybe one of the workers left this tarp." She walked over and she kind of pushed it and there was somebody in it under, it was a kid. He was sleeping. SM (01:23:35): Oh my gosh. JC (01:23:36): My mother said, "What are you doing?" And he said, "I am here as a war protestor and I needed a place to sleep." And she said, "Do you know where you're sleeping? You are in a national cemetery. You are on my son's body." SM (01:23:52): Oh my gosh, that is terrible. JC (01:23:54): Then he told my mother that he was given $25. He was up from New England someplace. He was paid $25 to get on a bus and come to Washington to protest. These kids were paid money to come into Washington. SM (01:24:13): They did not really care? JC (01:24:14): Did not even know what they were doing. SM (01:24:16): Unbelievable. Can I use your restroom? JC (01:24:19): Oh, absolutely. SM (01:24:25): Here we go. Next question is dealing with the generation gap. There was a tremendous generation gap for the boomers because there was a lot of parents were split from kids during that era. And there does not seem to be today... I work with college students though there seems to be a real closeness between parent and child today because there's so involved in their son or daughter's education. Could you comment your thoughts on the generation gap that happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s? Did you see it? Did you sense it? And you have already said that your family was pretty close in the values and maybe your family- JC (01:25:17): Well, my parents were divorced too, and so I did not know my dad, so in that sense. And I would say the majority of my friends, gosh, I think [inaudible] of my friend's parents, if I remember correctly, were married. Phil, my boyfriend, he was killed in Vietnam. His parents were divorced, but they were cordial to one another. His dad lived in Taiwan most of that time. His mother lived in Arlington. But I do not really see that. SM (01:25:50): Because the generation gap, there is a Life magazine cover, which showed a young boy. I have it in my office at work and the whole magazine is all about the generation gap. JC (01:25:57): Well, I have remember people talking about that. Yeah. SM (01:26:04): Do you sense that today's families are closer than maybe they were in the- JC (01:26:15): I think they are striving for that now. I think they got along the way to go. But I look at people that I know who have kids in college, and you're right. When they are in college, all the paperwork you got to fill out and all that. I do not know. I do not- SM (01:26:38): What do you think will be the, as time goes on, what will be the legacy of the boomer generation? JC (01:26:48): Everybody is going to think of Vietnam. I really do. Vietnam will be a big issue, but hopefully it will be a learning experience. SM (01:27:02): The issue of trust is something that. SM (01:27:03): The issue of trust is something that... I will use my myself as an example. When I think of, when growing up of... When I was very young, I had a minister. My grandfather was a minister, and we would go to church every Sunday as a little boy, and I looked up to my minister. I looked up to my teacher. I looked up to people in authority. I looked up to even President Eisenhower, even though I was a little boy, and John Kennedy. Heck, I met John Kennedy when I was a little boy at Hyde Park one Sunday. Something happened in that era of... With the Gulf of Tonkin, if you read about that, was that contrived, the body counts? Then we ended up in Watergate. Then you had presidents like Nixon with the Enemies List, and there is a lack of trust, and I think it affected a lot of people in the boomer generation. Could you comment on whether trust, how did that whole issue, how important trust is with you as a member of the boomer generation, and your peers, your thoughts on the whole issue of trust and trust in leaders? JC (01:28:20): I think trust is something that has to be earned, and I think people have lost a lot of trust along the way for some of the very issues that you have mentioned. I mean, you would think that your leader that you trusted to run the country or whatever would do it in an honorable way. I mean, you just look at Enron and all of that. I mean, you have major individuals who are overseeing corporations, who have stripped people of their future. Their retirement's gone, and I think people have lost a lot of trust in a lot of people, and I think trust is something that is really in a bad way right now. SM (01:29:16): Do you blame the boomer parents for maybe their kids not trusting, or do kids trust today? What effect does this lack of trust have on the kids? JC (01:29:30): I think the effect it has on people, people pretty much do their own thing anymore. They feel like that they do not... That is why I do not think they look up to leadership with respect anymore because they just feel like... Oh, I mean, I look at a recent incident that was in the news, when the iPhone came out here. Here, you have a mayor, who's mayor of a city that people are dying constantly on the streets, and he is sitting in a lawn chair behind an iPod. When you trust that that leader would be working to make sure people are... I mean, send an assistant to sit in the lawn chair. I think it's not only trust, it is just there is kind of that sense of accountability is gone, and respect, but no wonder. I mean, look at some of the things that you see. SM (01:30:25): As a young person, and when your brother passed away, did you put any blame on President Johnson and President Nixon, depending on the year? JC (01:30:37): Actually, maybe I was one of those rare birds from the (19)60s. I actually did not get into that accounting of blame. I really did not. I do not think any human being would have a pulse if they did not feel the pain and the loss for each and every casualty that comes across their desk. I look at President Johnson. I look at President Bush. I know we have a letter from President Johnson. Maybe it was just a form letter, who knows? I would have to go back and look at it again, but probably was. But I am sure when he had that stack of letters on his desk, and if President Bush still does that today, if that is still done, they still have to be thinking when they are stroking that pen, and it has to affect them in some way. It truly does. I never did blame Nixon and Johnson. I read books, and McNamara and all of them, and again, there were issues that happened that I am not pleased with, but I really... No, I do not. If it had not been Vietnam, it would have been perhaps another conflict. Nobody wants war, but it's inevitable. I went through a phase in my life where I was almost that generation of peace, peace, peace, but then I realized that that was an immaturity. It is naive to think we're never going to have war. I mean, just look how history repeats itself. Of course, I do not want war. Nobody does, but unfortunately it happens. The thing that scares me is the fact with the technology we have, the weapons get more powerful. SM (01:32:50): I have come to the section now where I am just going to read some names from that little section toward the end where you... Just quick responses, they do not have to be any in-depth, just your initial, quick response on your thoughts on these individuals. JC (01:33:03): There is one that I am already getting a little blood pressure up. SM (01:33:06): Okay-okay. Yeah, Tom Hayden. JC (01:33:12): No comment. SM (01:33:14): Jane Fonda. JC (01:33:16): I do have strong feelings about Jane Fonda, only in the regard that I have seen how Vietnam veterans have responded to her. I was not there. I did not see her palm pass what has been rumored that she passed. I have heard her say in recent years that she was a born-again Christian, but her definition of born-again Christian must be a little bit different than mine because I recently saw her on David Letterman, and that was not my depiction of what a born-again Christian is. I do truly feel if Jane Fonda really is sorry for the wounds that have been created between her and Vietnam veterans, if she truly is repenting of that, that she should spend some time going to different veterans' organizations and trying to have healing before any more veterans pass, and even before she passes because I think there is a strong bitterness there that it would be nice to see healed. I do not know if it will ever happen though. SM (01:34:38): Robert McNamara. JC (01:34:45): Had a lot of power. SM (01:34:51): Does it upset you that he knew in (19)67, as he states in his book, In Retrospect, that we should have left Vietnam, that it was a losing war, yet he did nothing to do it, and then he left. That is getting into politics again. JC (01:35:11): I know, but you know what? In the very end of things... You were talking earlier about somebody going to their grave not liking somebody. In the very end, all of these people who have an accountability, I believe that, [inaudible] threefold. SM (01:35:29): How about Lyndon Johnson? Again, just quick comments on him. Bobby Kennedy? JC (01:35:43): I thought he was very energetic and had potential there. SM (01:35:49): Eugene McCarthy. JC (01:35:54): Again, powerful. SM (01:35:58): How about John Kennedy? JC (01:36:02): I thought he was very powerful. When you hear about the Camelot era and all of that, I think a lot of that was just... There was a lot of grace during that era, a lot of grace and respect because I too remember growing up, and it is Mr. President, Mr. President. You hear the youth today talk about Bill, Billy Boy, and that what's-its-name guy in Texas, who cannot even speak a complete sentence. I mean, there is no respect. Even if you do not like the person, even if you do not like any of these names of these people that you are talking about, to me, there should be a respect for the office. SM (01:36:51): Is this working? Yes, it is. All right. JC (01:36:55): When you are naming all of these names and everything, as I said, and I am not sure if it was on the tape or not, I really think the offices are offices that need to be respected, and even if I do not agree with some of the things that they do, I still need to... As an American, I think it is my obligation. I need to respect the office, and if I have a negative feeling or negative comment about somebody, I am not doing the office any service by expressing that negative attitude. And I think it tends to tear down when we do that because, as I said earlier, I remember it was the president, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and now it is all these anecdotes, these flippant names about Billy and the Texan, and that is disrespectful, to me, and I do not want to be a part of that. SM (01:38:02): Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. JC (01:38:05): I think Dr. Martin Luther King really did bring to the forefront that there was a definite civil, I mean, a civil rights issue between Blacks and whites. I do believe strongly, though, also that sometimes it has taken to the extreme, and people take advantage of it. I think it is very, very wrong that people talk about people in a Black-white issue, anyway. I think people should be spoken of as an individual, period. Why does it matter if somebody is white or Black? If you are going to do that, we are going to have Black history month, why do not we have Caucasian history month? I mean, where do you draw the line? SM (01:38:58): How about Malcolm X? JC (01:39:10): There is a concern about, me with certain individuals, that their power to project negative thinking really does impact people. That is why it is that much more our responsibility and duty to project the positive. SM (01:39:33): Gets into the next group, which is the Black Power people like Huey Newton and Bobby Seale and Angela Davis. JC (01:39:40): And part of it... Yeah. You talk about some of those people, they get radical, and they get extreme, and there is this... To me, if anybody has to scream all the time to get a point across, there is something wrong with that. I just do not like it when there is all that screaming. Do not know how to word that. SM (01:40:03): Were you fearful of the Black Power movement, or did that affect you in any way? JC (01:40:10): Well, I remember a visit, being at National Airport. It was a wedding, and it was right in the heart of all the clashes that were going on. We were in Roslyn. First, we went to National Airport, and we were expecting people into the plane, and then I had a friend of mine put his briefcase down, and he told me, "Put that briefcase by you, and do not let it out of your sight for a moment." So, I actually straddled it between my legs because he was so adamant about, "Do not let go of this." It was heavy, so I did not want to hold it. Then when he came back and we went to Roslyn to drop the people off at the hotel, I said, "What was in that suitcase?" He said, "Guns." Of course, you could not do that today. We were right in the midst of all the shootings and everything that was going on when Martin Luther King was killed, and I remember all of that. I would just like to express to these people, where does all this hatred... I think sometimes people take... I started to tell you earlier that I think sometimes the Black-white issue is taken to the extreme. Like anything, people try to milk it, take advantage. I mean, where are all these white people who are never mentioned that never grew up with this Black-white issue? I mean, people make it sound like everybody made the Blacks sit on the back of the bus. Well, they only did back then. Well, we do not do it anymore. That was wrong, and so Martin Luther King made a difference there. He really did. SM (01:41:50): How about Dr. Benjamin Spock? JC (01:41:53): I laugh when I hear about Dr. Benjamin Spock because I think my kids were raised okay. He was raised on their book, but you do not hear about him anymore, do you? I did not get involved into his politics. I just only read about him with raising babies. SM (01:42:07): He died in (19)98. He died the same week my mom died, and I remember being with my mom and showing her a magazine where he had passed away. And it was interesting because the week my mom died, he died before my mom died, and Frank Sinatra died two or three days later, all in 1998. So, it is hard to believe it has been that long. JC (01:42:32): It sure is. SM (01:42:34): How about the Berrigan Brothers? Did you know anything about Daniel and Philip Berrigan? JC (01:42:37): No, I did not. SM (01:42:38): The Catholic priests who were... We have had them on our campus, and one just passed away. How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the yippies? JC (01:42:48): Yeah, they were yippies, all right. Again, they probably got their little groupies together for all their bus trips and everything, but do you ever hear about them anymore? Here today, gone tomorrow. SM (01:42:59): Yeah, though they both passed away. Ironic that Jerry Rubin died illegally crossing the street. JC (01:43:09): Really? SM (01:43:09): Yeah. That was in Los Angeles. He had actually become very conservative and part of the establishment, so to speak. Yeah. JC (01:43:15): Well, I think a part of that, that whole thing was just a matter of maturity, this rebellious way. I mean, all kids go through that, even today. SM (01:43:30): Well, they were way out. I saw Jerry Rubin when I was in college, and he came to speak. The place was packed. He was a great speaker. Daniel- JC (01:43:39): Oh, that is scary. SM (01:43:41): Yeah. Obviously, great speakers can really inspire. How about Daniel Ellsberg, Pentagon Papers? JC (01:43:48): Oh, yeah. Yeah. SM (01:43:51): Or Ralph Nader? JC (01:43:54): Well, Ralph Nader actually helped me unload a car, so I cannot say too many bad things about him. SM (01:44:00): Oh, he did? JC (01:44:01): We had a car that got off the assembly line without any inspection. It was an Omni, and I remember turning the corner, and in fact, my son was in an infant seat, and the car door flew open. And I remember driving the car when my father-in-law was here and thinking, "Oh, it just handles all the bumps so well," only to find out it did not have the right shocks and everything. And his office literally helped me unload that car without having to pay extra. SM (01:44:32): Excellent. Yeah, he wrote a book on that around the (19)70s. How about Gerald Ford and Richard Nixon? JC (01:44:44): Gerald Ford and Richard Nixon. Well, I see Richard like this. I remember my brother saying he wanted to be 21, so he could vote. So, when I think of Richard Nixon, I think of the fact that my brother never got to be old enough to vote. SM (01:45:00): Oh. Well, what year did your brother die? JC (01:45:03): (19)67. SM (01:45:03): Yeah, (19)68 was the first election that he could have. Yeah. JC (01:45:14): Damn that liar. SM (01:45:16): How about Muhammad Ali? Because he is very well known in terms of as an athlete, but he was against the war. JC (01:45:23): Yeah. Again, I am glad that he had the right to express his feelings, with democracy, about his feeling against the war. I am glad people afforded him that opportunity. SM (01:45:37): Yeah. Right here I am going... Spiro Agnew, I have to mention that name. JC (01:45:40): Oh, yeah. I remember Spiro Agnew. SM (01:45:41): Yeah. I do not know what you think about good old Spiro. JC (01:45:43): Spiro. SM (01:45:49): And the Watergate Committee, any thoughts on Watergate and that whole... JC (01:45:55): Again, it helped people to lose trust, which is a sad commentary. SM (01:46:05): Now, these are just some terms from the period, and just quick responses. Woodstock. JC (01:46:13): Hippies. SM (01:46:13): Communes. JC (01:46:13): Love. SM (01:46:21): Black Power. JC (01:46:23): Fist up in the air. SM (01:46:26): SDS. JC (01:46:28): Yes, was that a drug? SM (01:46:29): No, Students for a Democratic Society. JC (01:46:33): Oh-oh, yes. Yes-yes. SM (01:46:35): Started by Tom Hayden. JC (01:46:37): Oh, that is right. That is right. Brainwashed. SM (01:46:42): The Weathermen. They were the ones that blew up buildings and stuff. JC (01:46:50): Oh, that. Oh, yeah. SM (01:46:52): They were a take-off of the SDS group, and that is how it died. How about the word the counterculture? How about, let us see, Chicago 8? JC (01:47:09): Where is all this today? Hopefully, you do not hear about it. SM (01:47:13): Remember the Chicago 8 trial, the (19)68 convention? Kent State. JC (01:47:18): Yeah, yeah. I had a girlfriend whose sister was there, who knew that [inaudible] one. SM (01:47:24): Kent State and Jackson State. Any thoughts on Kent State? JC (01:47:30): I just remember my girlfriend's sister being there. It was not her. SM (01:47:37): How about the Beatles? JC (01:47:39): Never did like them. SM (01:47:40): Never did, huh? What about the music of the (19)60s, Jimi Hendricks, Janis Joplin? JC (01:47:46): I never liked- SM (01:47:46): Motown, the music. JC (01:47:49): I used to always play back my brother's favorites. I liked Buddy Holly and Ricky Nelson. I always thought the Beatles were too twangy, (singing). I truly never understood the big hype for the Beatles. SM (01:48:07): How about the Rolling Stones and all those groups? JC (01:48:13): Very energetic. SM (01:48:17): Let us see, the Missile Crisis of (19)62. Where were you when the Missile Crisis happened? JC (01:48:31): Oh my gosh, I was a kid. I remember the Bay of Pigs. We were sitting around the dining room table talking about that to the wee hours. SM (01:48:38): How about the astronauts, (19)69, walking on the moon? JC (01:48:45): Oh, I remember that. That was my first... I thought that was phenomenal. SM (01:48:47): Still remember the astronauts? JC (01:48:49): Glenn? SM (01:48:51): Well, the three that were on that mission. JC (01:48:54): I do not remember all three names. No. SM (01:48:58): That is why we do these trivia questions. JC (01:49:00): Oh, my husband... You're missing it, Richard. This is your best part. He would have answers to all of this. SM (01:49:07): I guess that is about it. I do not have any other questions to ask. I guess the one thing I want to ask you is, you have mentioned the loss of your brother as obviously the event that has touched you the most. But is there another event not linked to your brother or to your family that you remember more than any other that had an effect on you, a specific event during your youth? JC (01:49:47): Our housekeeper passing away, she was very dear to us. She was like my grandmother. Actually, I was not really a youth. I was married then. Wait a minute. Let me see if I can... Now when you are saying an event, what kind of an event? SM (01:50:04): Like the assassination of John F Kennedy or something that really... JC (01:50:09): That really rocked my world back then. I would say that, Kennedy. That was one of those moments in time that you can remember exactly where you were, who was with you, what you were doing. Oh yeah, I can remember that. SM (01:50:26): Can you tell me what... JC (01:50:27): I was in history class when they came over the loudspeaker. It was the end of the day, and I remember walking home with the same group of friends that I would walk home with, and we were all talking about it. SM (01:50:38): Were you around your family like most people were that weekend? Because he died on a Friday. JC (01:50:44): He did die on a Friday, yes. I walked home, and the whole family was home. SM (01:50:54): It was an unbelievable time. JC (01:50:55): It was. It really was. And it was a disbelief, I mean, to come home and turn on the TV and see it over and over and over, replaying that, and Oswald coming through. SM (01:51:02): Were you one of those individuals that happened to be seeing Oswald live when he was actually shot? JC (01:51:09): No. SM (01:51:09): I was. I saw him live, right when the shooting happened. I still remember, Jack Perkins was the announcer for NBC at the time. Yeah. Are there any final thoughts that you would like to mention, that maybe that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask regarding... JC (01:51:33): Well, fortunately, I had copied your questions beforehand, and that was good. I mean, I do regret that I did not go back and look at some of these names, really. I mean, I really did not pay attention to that. I saw them on here, but I did not even look at it, really. SM (01:51:47): Yeah. Some people have, during the interview, that- JC (01:51:52): Oh, Gloria Steinem. SM (01:51:54): Oh, yeah, the women's movement. Some of them have responded in... The gentleman yesterday that I interviewed, he was fantastic. He could not, he said, "Steve, when you mention a name, I cannot just give a quick two-second response." Nixon... JC (01:52:12): Barry Goldwater. SM (01:52:13): Yeah. Well, yeah. He talked about Barry Goldwater, but he said Nixon was... Nixon has gotten an unbelievable response from just about everybody because of the fact that when you look at the Vietnam Memorial, and you see the fact that when he came in at (19)68, he had a plan to change the war and bring the troops home. Over 29,000 people died after he became president. So that is quite a... And then there is all kinds of things being written about the peace talks, of Paris, and what was really going on there, and that if he really did have a plan that- JC (01:52:57): Why did not he enact it? SM (01:52:58): ... it would not have been in time for your brother, but it would have been in time for 29,000 others. JC (01:53:02): That is a lot of people. SM (01:53:06): Yeah, because the people were dying through [inaudible]- JC (01:53:07): What is your feeling on now, on Iraq? SM (01:53:10): My feeling on Iraq? I think it's another Vietnam, and that is the gentleman I spoke to yesterday, but you cannot even bring up... Early on, I felt it was the same. And because we are part of the boomer generation that remembers Vietnam, to even bring the name Vietnam or quagmire up in a discussion is... You just could not do it. JC (01:53:37): But have we learned anything from Vietnam? I mean, if this is another Vietnam, did we learn anything from that? SM (01:53:45): See, I am going to end right here, and I am going to turn it off. Thank you very much. JC (01:53:51): Thank you. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Judith Campbell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Campbell, Judith ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Sisters; Campbell, Judith--Interviews Description An account of the resource Judith Campbell is a sister of a Vietnam Veteran who died in the war. She is linked to the group of families of the Vietnam veterans whose names are inscribed on the wall. Campbell is an active participant in The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (VVMF) ceremonies and programs, as well as a strong supporter of the Education Center at The Wall. Judy C. Campbell lives in Wilmington, Delaware, and works on behalf of Gold Star Families everywhere. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-07-15/17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.61a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.61b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 113:55 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fe20f845a4a198b9e735f270b5562e93.mp3 f061f0566fa36e01cf75ea18785de5f9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Alexandra Kiosse Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Julia Kiosse Biographical Text Julia Kiosse was the daughter of a Russian native and a native Moldovan. She immigrated to the United States in 1998 with her daughter, but without her husband as he could not get the proper documents in time. She lived in a small apartment in Brooklyn for one year before she moved back to Moldova to be with her husband. She moved with her family to the United States in 2000 and settled in Brooklyn. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:48 minutes Date of Interview 2016-03-26 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Kiosse, Julia. --Interviews; Moldovans<span xml:lang="en" property="madsrdf:authoritativeLabel skos:prefLabel"></span>--United States; Russians<span xml:lang="en" property="madsrdf:authoritativeLabel skos:prefLabel"></span>--United States; Diaspora, Russian; Jews; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Moldova -- History; Glasnost--Soviet Union; Migrations; Communism; City and town life--New York (State)--New York OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JuliaKiosse.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Russians; Moldova; Volleyball players Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Julia Kiosse Interviewed by: Alexandra Kiosse Transcriber: Alexandra Kiosse Date of interview: 26 March 2016 at 11:00 am Interview Setting: Julia's kitchen in Brooklyn, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Alexandra Kiosse: Can you please tell me your full name, what year you were born, where you lived as a child, and when you moved to America? Julia Kiosse: Alright my name is Julia Kiosse, I was born in December 12, 1975. I was born in Liv in Moldova, one of the ex-Soviet Union republics until twenty-two/twenty-three years old. AK: So, what year did you move to America? JK: It was in 2000, so I was actually twenty-five. Twenty-five years old. AK: And, what is your profession? JK: Here, I become actually a freight forwarder, and I'm working in the logistics industry. AK: I will start from the past and move to the present. So, we learned that the 90's were hard economically for the former Soviet Union. Were you, and how were you, affected by this? JK: Yes, of course. I remember these years. I was about to graduate school. It was time when the Soviet Union were splitting apart, all republics, and it was very difficult economically wise situation. It was time when the government didn't pay any salaries to their employees, to the people. My father worked for a sports school, he was the coach, and he was not receiving his salary for three, four, five months. So, it was a big deal. It simply affected our eating habits; simply. So I'm not talking about something, you know, specific but simply food wise it was difficult. AK: So, what was the common food, what did everyone eat? JK: You know, we are from Moldova so it's a lot of vegetables, but it's also seasonal vegetables because [if] it's still winter in affect so basically, you know, potatoes, very common beets, cabbage, onions. Very common vegetables. And of course cereal, pasta, you know, this is most common. Milk, bread, something like this. AK: Was there a noticeable change in the society when the Soviet Union fell? So, from '90 or '91 to 93' for example? JK: Yes of course. You can feel it, you know, it was difficult time for everybody. Everybody was scared. At the same time we got some feeling of freedom, but we didn't know what to do with this freedom because it was like we were always living in certain frames. So all of a sudden we hear about freedom and democracy, we didn't know what to do with this. You know, it was very broad-some kind of term that we heard, but we didn't know how to eat this democracy. So people were kind of scared, puzzled, hungry, and angry also. Because some people were very conservative when we lived building all our lives communism and all of a sudden, you know, this idea falls apart. It was also a lot of disappointment because all of a sudden we realized, so, what's next? It's kind of like a target that all of your life, all of a sudden disappeared. So it was very difficult time. AK: So you said it was confusing. What did you hear on the news? What did the news tell you? JK: You see, I was still very young girl. For me it was, you know, news I didn't watch much news. But they were saying a lot about democracy, glasnost, you know it was very common term Gorbachev implemented. Which means that, glasnost¸ you can say whatever you want to say. Which is big deal because, you know, before we lived and we know that we have to filter whatever we're saying. You can say something inside of your family, in the kitchen, but god forbid to say it somewhere out loud. So glasnost, and these were the major terms that were on the T.V. Democracy, what to do, who killed what, what's going on, and it was more friendly relationships with other countries. All of a sudden, we start hearing some stuff that we never heard before on the T.V. That, all of a sudden America become more friendly, or other countries exist and what people do there, and how they're living, and showing some T.V programs about life overseas. It was kind of you know very interesting because we never saw this before. It was kind of eye-opening situation. AK: When you were in school what did you learn about America, or what were your impressions about America? JK: It was something at the same time strange, forbidden, and also magically interesting, because we didn't know much about America. We just knew, as a kid, as a child, I knew Levi jeans, I knew some chewing gums, Coca Cola. This was very trendy. And it was, you know, it was not in the stores. You couldn't buy this stuff in the stores, you could only buy it on the black market, it was very expensive. So regular people would not even have, so it was something not reachable, you know, like desirable. So this was. As a child, I remember this America. But otherwise we knew that, you know, it's a lot of bad stuff in America. Like discrimination of black people, they always showing us very scary picture of American life. You know, so we didn't know much. We knew that people living much better there but we didn't know exactly what's going on there. And one of my favorite characters from the United States was Samantha-Samantha, what was her last name I cannot recall- but she came with the Gorbachev time. She was one of the girls that we had exchange program as an open-mind program. So we sent some girl to United States, and Samantha came to us as a peace visitor from the United States. Very cute, very nice-looking girl, so we kind of realized that oh Americans are actually nice-looking people. AK: Why do you think that they had this exchange program? JK: It was after a certain period of time, so when Gorbachev actually announced this glasnost and democracy, and you know it was more open to all of us to American people and Russian people. So it was one of the first steps on the normal-people level to exchange views. And you know simply to basically say "hello" to each other. AK: About America, what did people around you say? Like what did your family say about America, was it nice or did they criticize America? JK: You see, our family is a Jewish family. So, we have some Jewish roots and we knew, I knew even as a child, for a long time that we will immigrate from this country, from Russia. Because it was, we all understood that this was not normal life that we're living. It is not normal that people with education (like chemical engineer, my mom, and my father who was a coach with a Bachelor's degree) barely making to exist, barely making money to exist. So, it was always some kind of drugging, it was always a terrible situation that we lived. I cannot say "terrible" but we know that people can live better, and we don't understand what we can do in order to do it. You know, you cannot work more, you cannot work harder. It would not help you, you know, it's just the situation that you were living. No matter how hard you were working you still get the same salary. So we were planning to immigrate long time ago, and I knew it as a child, so we were always looking toward America or Germany, and the third option was Israel. So we were always looking to United States as our potential new home. So we didn't know much. We heard a lot of minuses from life in the United States. We understood, of course, all benefits of living in United States, but we didn't know exactly what's going on because we'd never been there. AK: What about the United States appealed to you? What appealed to you while you were living in Moldova, why did you choose the United States? JK: I saw already that it will be my potential, my life. I knew that my mind was already programmed that I'm going there to live another life, better quality life. So, I somehow on intuition level I knew that it is better there. AK: Tell me about your childhood, what did you do in your free time as a child? JK: We were playing outside a lot. Most of time we were spending outside playing ball, climbing on trees, playing hide-and-seek, bicycling. You know, outside games mostly. AK: So, you disappeared in the morning and came back at night? JK: On Saturday and Sunday yes, and then mom periodically was screaming from the window "go home it's time to eat, go home you need to clean up." And then I would clean up or eat and then go again outside, so it was always a lot of kids outside because there was not a lot of toys at home and then because we were very active so it was always pleasure for us to be outside. AK: When you were younger, elementary school or middle school, did you have a childhood hero or someone you looked up to? JK: I don't recall. I think it was probably elementary school and probably part of middle school, it was very communist heroes. First of all it was Lenin, because we tried to get this little znachok, how do you call it, pin on your school form with Lenin's portrait, a little star and inside it was Lenin's picture. We were told that best kids would get this pin. Not everybody-you have to behave, you have to be a good child. It means that you have to, besides school you have to treat other people well, you have to give your seat in the bus to the elderly and pregnant women. You cannot throw garbage on the street, you cannot do this and this and this. We were trying to behave basically. Then, because children are more, you know you can give them idea and they easily take this idea. So, they kind of following this. And then of course we had the pioneer, we tried to be good pioneers. It was a big deal. So you behave, and everything. You know if you do something wrong, people would say "no, you cannot do this because you will not be a pioneer! So, it was a big deal. And then we had also a lot of movies about war and about some children, patriotic children, that were killing Nazi people and we try also to be the same kind of hero. Some kind of propaganda I would say. It was not Snow White or something like this. No we didn't have something like this. AK: Would you say the feelings toward communism were positive? JK: Yeah it definitely had some positive moments. It's like a religion, it's basically putting you in some behavior frame that you have to behave, especially when the propaganda is working so well, for so many years, that you believe in this. And yes, it disciplines you, especially children, I remember this very well. I would say the scariest part for me was that I would not be a pioneer if I would not behave well. So, it was very motivated reasons to be a good person. Of course there was some positive moments. I can say it for sure. AK: Do you think communism ultimately failed because of what it was as a system or because of something else, maybe because of some leaders or how they led the system? JK: No, I think it's the idea. The older I become I understand that this is all baloney, all these ideas. You see in reality when you grow up that yeah you become a pioneer, but a bunch of other bad people become pioneers too. And actually these bad people can play against you just with some kind of secret report that you didn't behave as a proper communist, or something like that. Or basically when you grow up and you go out of college, you get the same salary that person who was fooling around. So it was this, everybody was equal. And then at certain point you got disappointed because it's like, "what is this? I work hard, I study, I tried, I'm working hard, I'm trying to be a good employee but by the end nobody will notice this." They would only give you some piece of paper saying that you're the best employee, but you cannot deposit this into your bank account. By the end it's just like when you have hundreds of these notes, they already cover your bathroom, but you don't have paper towels. You have no money. It works great for small children, but when you grow up and you need real life you understand that something is not clicking together, something is missing here. AK: What was your education after high school? JK: I went to college and I started my education in college. I graduated in three years in college and then we decided to immigrate. I got married and we were going to the United States. So I quit basically college. AK: So did you continue on your education here? JK: Yes, I went right away here. I got into college and I got my Associate's degree then I moved to Bachelor's degree, and I was working on a Master's degree but I never graduated. I have to come back and finish. AK: What was your first job after graduating from college? JK: Here in the United States, my first job that I used my education was job in the airport. I was working in the freight department of Virgin Atlantic, handling import and export of Virgin Atlantic in JFK. AK: Do you think that your education in Moldova or your education throughout your whole life, from elementary school to high school to college, do you think that affected how you studied or how you learned in America? JK: Definitely, definitely. We had very good, I think, level of education in [Moldova]. It was a lot of people in school, teachers and counselors that were full of ideas to educate the pioneers. They treat their job pretty well and level of education system was not bad at all. I like it and I see that when I came, I feel that my background was much more ahead of people that I worked with, people in JFK airport who only had high school diploma or a little more. I saw that there were many things they did that they had no idea of. Their education level was behind mine. AK: What differences do you see, whether they are culturally, educationally, behaviorally, between kids in Moldova, when you were a child, and kids now in America? JK: It is a difference. I think that in Moldova, education was much better. Much better. It's much more wider, it's much more serious, deep. Even though I was surprised that kids here start reading much much earlier than in Moldova. Both of my daughters started reading here at age six. At six in Moldova, you were still running with a ball outside, have no idea about books or reading. So, we started at seven or eight, my first grade I was eight because I was a December child. AK: The same question, but what do you think about kids socially? How do you think kids are different in the former Soviet Union than they are now here in America? JK: It has nothing to do with the Soviet Union or the United States now. It's just the technology level, I think now no matter what, even in Moldova now, it's different because technology is killing, unfortunately, social skills. Kids are growing from toddler age with iPads, phones. They like to play games and it has also a lot of pluses but it's also a big minus towards social skills unfortunately. So we were much more open in the old times because we had no devices. Toys were not so sophisticated, so even if you had a doll you better take it out and play with your girlfriends outside, making some dresses together because there weren't many dresses for girls, you had to do it yourself mostly with some colored paper, construction paper. It was a lot of fun, you were sharing ideas of how to do it. Some kids were more creative. It was cool. AK: Your dad was a coach, so how did sports affect your life as a child and adolescent and how was that affecting your social life as well. JK: It affected me a lot. It basically formed my character because volleyball is a team sport and as any sport it requires to have some basic character to be able to perform, to be able to fight no matter what's the reason. Basically once you're on the field you playing for the ball, fighting for the ball, winning ball. But then it becomes your life and you're fighting for your interests in this life, in a good way of course. You're not hitting anybody; you're not hitting your partners on another team. So you are just fighting to reach some goal in your life. AK: So again, what difference do you see between athletics when you were a kid in Moldova and athletics here? JK: I see a big difference. I think its connection of educational approach here and over there. It's a different mentality, people have a different approach. Here sports clubs are more hobbies. When kids are coming if child is overweight, they taking the girl to gymnastics or ballet just to fix this weight situation. In Moldova or Soviet Union, nobody would get the idea to bring an overweight girl to a ballet class, because it was just not acceptable. It's a different approach, first of all. There, kids are going to play sport and they see that they have to win, they have to perform, they have to give some results. Here it's more parents' drive that their children will be playing or doing some sports, and its more hobby, it's more for pleasure. It's not so serious as it was in Soviet Union, and I think that they still have the same approach there. So here coach would never criticize your child seriously, never treat it seriously. Over there it's a job, sports activity was a job. AK: So, what were you striving for, what was your goal when you were playing sports? JK: I wanted to be a good athlete, I wanted to achieve something. We had category of sportsmen, we had some kind of achievements in sports. You can be a candidate, we called it candidat mastera sporta and master of sport. We had category one, category two. So through your sport career you achieve, step by step, better and better category. And of course volleyball is a team job so you have to try to get into better team. First it was on the republic level, because it was Moldova Republic. Then you have to try to get on the Soviet Union team, and then perform on an international level. So, it was always some kind of goal, because it was a chance to live a little bit better life. To get out of this equality of the people. AK: What was your biggest achievement in volleyball? JK: I was playing for Republic of Moldova team, as a member of the Republic of Moldova team. AK: Who did you play? JK: I was playing, how do you call it, passuyushey, how do you call it. AK: Setter. JK: Yes, setter. As a setter. My height is not tall enough as is required for volleyball, so best position for me was to be a setter. I was running fast and setting tall girls to hit hard. AK: Who did you play, like what countries or what other teams did you play? JK: Normally it was a competition through the Soviet Union, between Soviet Union republics. So, all fifteen republics we played. Again, Moldova is normally not such a tall people like Russia or Ukraine, so we were not achieving some big results as these republics, but we were pretty good. We also performed on international level, but all this international level was only in the frame of the Soviet camp countries, like Romania, Poland, who was next to us. Yeah Romania and Poland were the biggest competitions. I don't think we participated in any other levels. It was only our neighbor countries. AK: Do you still talk to your former teammates or your former friends from Moldova? JK: Yes sometimes, sometimes. They are still living there and you know we lost connection, close connection I would say. Our normal conversation is ending up "How's everything, everything's fine. How's people, how's family." And to go somewhere deeper it doesn't have any sense because were so far away from each other. They're living their lives, they have their own troubles, problems, and achievements. Here is different approach so. I don't think it makes sense to go deeper into problems that each of us have. We just say everything is fine, okay good good. AK: Do they ever ask any interesting questions about America? JK: Not much, I think everyone knows about what's going on here so it's not a crazy country or something. But sometimes you can hear from people living there, especially now with all this brainwashing from Putin's regime. They think that we are acting this way against Putin because we have a propaganda here, and we not allowed to talk openly or whatever we're writing them, they think that we have to write it because our Facebook and Skype is controlled, and we have to do it. So they kind of whispering to us "it's fine it's fine, we know that you cannot say anything, its fine." It's kind of funny. AK: What do you think about Putin's regime? How does it affect America, and how is it affecting the Russian people? JK: It affects a lot. It's kind of sad because living here we kind of see the situation in Russia a little bit outside. I'm not normally watching even American news, I'm watching local American Brooklyn channels just to see what's going on in my city but I'm not much involved in politics, or propaganda because it just doesn't interest me. I'm not watching news, so I cannot say that I'm brainwashed by Americans that Russia is bad or something like that. I just see from outside that whatever we have been living with, not everything is right. We have to look at the problems or situation differently. And people who still continue living there, they looking at the problems differently. So mentally we are already from different camps. So I see that people are relying a lot on the T.Vs, the main channels that work in Russia, and they taking it really seriously and truly that this is reality. They don't want to even bother to go to internet and do some kind of research, and compare and analyze. They're taking it as it was during Soviet Union time, as they said. So they taking it without even analyzing and then they believe whatever they hear on the T.V, and this is kind of sad. AK: So, we interviewed a Russian student in Binghamton on Wednesday, and she mentioned that, not here friends, not her generation, but the generation above her (parents and grandparents), when they found out she was coming to America they told her “Tell Obama what we think of him." So what do you think they meant by that, what do they think of him? JK: Yeah, again they are victims of propaganda. My husband, when he travelled five years ago to Moldova, he was actually shocked. I think he still has some kind of homesickness but when he visited last time, he was very disappointed that even close relatives start asking him why did Americans torture Russian kids. Because apparently, it was a big topic on Russian T.V that few American people, few American families adopt Russian children from foster house, and something happened unfortunately to these children. And I think that it's thousands of kids been adopted, but only, let's say, five families screwed up. They didn't do their job properly, unfortunately you cannot control people. Sometimes it's really not good families that these Russian children, or any other children getting in. So, it's a tragedy, but it's tool for propaganda to switch this fact and show to Russian people that "you see how Americans torture Russian kids, on purpose." It's funny for us because this family, if they are idiots and they didn't treat their child properly, it's not because [the kid is] Russian it's just because they are sick for some reason. It's not because it's a Russian child, or Brazilian, or Japanese or something like that, they just sick people, they don't know how to treat kids. But Russian propaganda use it in their own advantage to show Russian people that "Look, look what they did." And relatives of my husband when he visits, they specifically seriously asked him "why do you do this, what's the reason? Why do you torture Russian kids?" And he's like "What kids, what are you talking about?" and they say "Yeah on the Russian TV its so many cases, you cannot now adopt Russian kids. We truly understand this and we're against Americans to adopt Russian kids." My husband was first shocked, and then he started laughing because this is ridiculous. It's grown-up people, people he knows. It's not some idiots, it's people from his family that he knows are nice, kind people. But they're asking really ridiculous questions, and we see that it's because they are victims of this propaganda, it's nothing else. It's not because they really think about it. Another question was "why did you invade Yugoslavia, why did you bomb Yugoslavia? Get out of wherever, some islands. Get out of Poland." And these are people who work hard, they have much more troubles in their lives to discuss than discuss this situation, political situation. And they didn't see my husband for at least five, seven years. And one of the questions that was important that they decided to ask was why Americans are doing something. I think its poor brainwashing. People are so preoccupied with these ideas that the T.V is sending them, that they cannot even hold it. This is one of the first questions they ask their relative after not seeing them for five, seven years. AK: When you came to America, did you have anything like that happen to you here? Did people have any funny questions or biases towards to you because you were Russian, or you spoke Russian, and had a Russian accent? JK: No, I was actually surprised that Americans are very friendly people, very open people. I think especially people from Latin America, all this mix that United States has with nationality and races, it's kind of making this cute combination and most of these people are immigrants so they kind of treat us very well. Surprisingly well for us because our language was very bad. I remember situations on the street when you tried to get somewhere and you're trying to ask on your broken English how to get somewhere. And when you hear these instructions, directions where to go and you're confused because you don't understand anything, people simply walk you towards some direction so you can find your own path. For me it was big surprise because in Soviet Union we were not tolerant at all to some accents or some bad Russian language. So it was not accepted. We would probably turn around, or laugh out loud on the level that this human being is talking. AK: When you first moved to the United States, what were your biggest worries and concerns? What was the hardest part? JK: Language of course. You feel yourself like a dog, that understands with smart eyes, understands what's going on but cannot say anything. It was one of the scariest parts; that you trying to survive, you're trying to make money, but you simply cannot talk. So it was very depressing and hardest point. But then once I started talking, even in my bad language, I understand that people are willing to listen to you. They see that you can do something, that you are not a bad person that you are cooperating, and Americans will work with you no matter how bad your language is. AK: What about economically when you first moved to the United States? JK: I think that it was a blessing for me especially, because when we came to the United States, simply the welfare that I was getting from the government, it was a much better financial situation than I was living in Moldova. Because I was a student, and then I got married, I didn't work so I depended on my husband, and my husband was making money but it was basic needs. We were able to save some money on a car and this and this, but here I start living my own life, trying to bring my own money to family. I was surprised that I was getting from the government every month Food Stamps that allowed me to eat very well and some cash amount. It was not covering my rent, but still it was a big help toward my life. I cannot say that I feel bad economically, it was a good help for me to start my American life, to go to school and everything. AK: Looking back now, what was your greatest accomplishment in America? JK: I'm still working on my accomplishments, and I think that that's why I love America. It never stops, no matter what age you are, what is your social status, or anything like this. You can always achieve something, whatever you're dreaming of. I'm talking about achieving some goals financially, and just whatever your dreams are. Let's say if you, you know, I'm still playing volleyball and I'm enjoying this, so I have to opportunity to play after my business hours. It's also small achievements because I'm doing stuff that I like to do. I'm still working on my professional level, I have a plan to graduate my Master's degree. I'm not afraid, in Russia I'd probably be puzzles to go to school when I'm forty. Here I know that no matter what is my age, I still can do it online, I still can accomplish, it is not a big deal. So I like it, I see my future full of plans, full of achievements. I think it's a lot of possibilities. You can take a lot of classes, I'm planning one day to improve my English, I'm still thinking when my children grow up and I don't have to spend money on them, for their education, maybe one day I will take some tutor that can instruct me and teach me to speak English better. Maybe some other language. So it's a lot of things that you can improve yourself, and I like it. AK: So you spoke about getting your Master's, what do you expect to get from getting a Master's degree and where do you want to be in twenty years let's say? JK: I'm getting older so I'm hoping to maybe get some job that will pay me even more, but have more benefits toward my pension. Maybe less working hours, or something flexible. It's hard to say, I'm very happy right now so I can't complain. That's why I'm probably not rushing to graduate my Master's degree. But I think that it will give me more potential to find something better, just simply. It's just an additional skill that I can put on the table, if I need it. AK: This is a hard question; how do you identify culturally? Would you say you are American, Russian, Moldovan, Transnistrian, or some combination? What would you tell people if they asked you? JK: It is hard to identify. Definitely I'm Russian-American, so I'm American with Russian background. I would not even identify myself as Moldavian, maybe Soviet Union because it was still time that it was Soviet Union in affect and it was a part of everything. Even though we were living in Moldova, it was more pro-Russian than Moldavian. It's a combination, it's definitely not American yet, it's definitely not Russian already, but it's some kind of Russian-American heritage. AK: Something in between. JK: Something in between, that's right. AK: How do you define your culture? Is it by music, by food, by language, by religion, by politics? JK: Mostly by background, Soviet Union background. Because it was major time that I lived there, so food and culture and education mostly affected me when I was a child during the Soviet Union time. There was no religion, I would say almost no religion at all, so I would say it's mostly by the place that I was living, the Soviet Union. AK: You are from Moldova, but also from Transnistria, Pridnestrovie, so how would you say that affected your life growing up and your culture? What was the difference? JK: That's very interesting also because when Transnistria become as a new republic in 1992, we truly believed that it happened for a reason and it's a good reason for all people that living there. Again, it was tool of propaganda. We were told that we had the right to create our own republic, our own country, and I believed in this 100%. I was a strong believer in this, and I didn't understand Moldavian government, why they acted so aggressively by entering with weapons and bombing people, innocent people. I was against this, and I was a truly pro-Transnistrian citizen. But when we immigrated here, and I start looking at-- first of all I started living here differently. I started learning American language, American culture. I saw tolerance to other people, I saw big part of America by going toward the rules and traditions. All of a sudden it hit me that stuff that happened in Transnistria is not right. Its only, in my opinion, it was only done because someone on the government level decided to do this. They basically brainwashed people and guide them toward this craziness. And people who live there they still suffer from this decision, most of them not realizing that it was a bad decision. But they are separatists and they now living very separate lives from entire world because nobody announced them as a country. They still kind of isolated from entire world, it's just crazy. It's not right and its one of the, unfortunately, Russian, I think in my opinion, it's one of the Russian government decisions. AK: Why do you think people wanted to separate from Moldova? Was the culture different, what was it? JK: No, it was an idea that someone gave us in this time, and it's the same kind of idea happening in Crimea and Abkhazia. In Soviet Union time what happened, students after graduating from the colleges, they were sent to different republics, normally in most poorest economically republics basically to build up economy of these republics. Russia, central of Russia, was always active. But Moldova, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, traditionally were not very educated countries because like Moldova is a very agricultural country, so people were normally farmers. All students after college were sent to these republics. My mom, for example, is very bright example of this situation. She grew up in Russia, she is a Russian citizen, and she spoke only Russian language after graduating from her chemical university. She was sent to Moldova, first to Azerbaijan but she ended up in Moldova working as a chemical engineer in one of the plants that the Soviet Union time on purpose built in this republic. Then all republics were exchanging materials. For example, Moldova nothing to do with chemistry in Moldova, but it was convenient big places and locations and they have to employ people so they were building these huge plants to create labor and everything. So my mom ended up in Moldova. Moldova of course, their language was Moldovan or Romanian because culturally wise they used to be part of Romania long time ago. But in Soviet Union time everything was so centralized and so coming from Russia, majority of people on the government level and big manufacturing level were speaking only Russian. My mom was very comfortably feeling there, and all her life after she moved to Moldova, it was the 70's until the 90's, she was speaking only Russian. She was very successful; whatever she achieved everything was fine. When the Soviet Union started falling apart, each republic of course started announcing their independence because Moldovan people all of a sudden feel their culture because of glasnost and democracy, they said "hey we're not Russian, we're Moldovan. We want to speak our language!" They are dominant there, so it is normal that Moldovans want to speak their language. They announced that all people who are working in certain people, they have to speak Moldavian language too, which is normal. In United States we have the same thing. If you want to work somewhere, you have to first of all speak English. You can also speak Spanish or something, but if you are achieving something and working you have to speak English. So now it sounds to be very normal, but when I was in Moldova in '92 for my mom and all of us it was very shocking because all of a sudden we had to start learning Moldavian. It just historically happened, it's not the fault of Moldavian people or anyone else. If you want to continue to live in this country, you have to learn Moldavian language. But all of a sudden, somebody feel this situation and the propaganda started spreading around these people saying "hey you're Russian, you have to speak Russian. Why are they pushing you to learn Moldavian? It's not good. You have to protest this. You work hard here, you have to be able to speak your language. You don't need Moldavian language." And of course these people, like my mom and family, they feel very comfortable with this idea because it eliminates the problem to learn another language when you're forty and after forty of course it's not easy. That's why my parents, as well as many other families, supported this idea to create this kind of republic. Yes we created it and we are all of a sudden we announced to Moldova that we're not part of Moldova anymore, we want our own state. It sounds funny right now, but for us with all this propaganda and all these thoughts that we were receiving from Russia, plus Russia give us citizenship immediately of Russia, and also the possibility to travel to Russia without any visa. People who retired were getting extra cash toward their pension. Of course it was very convenient for us, economically wise and idea wise because it eliminated the problem to learn another language. Now living here in the United States I realized that it was kind of a utopia, it was unpleasant and not really comfortable idea but I came to United States and I have no idea, I have never had the idea to pronounce here on Brighton Breach independence of United States. I understand that if I want to perform here, I have to learn language and tradition. It would never come to my mind to protest here on Brighton Beach and say "hey I'm Russian I'm proud to be Russian and only Russian." It's just funny, it's very childish. But I guess because those times somebody supported us on a government level from Russia, we felt support and financially wise we just went to this idea, which was not right apparently. AK: Would you ever like to go back to Moldova to visit? JK: Maybe, maybe but it's quite far away. I see that my friends, we have different mentality level. It's also a lot of places in the world that I never visit before. So it's not my destination in my dreams or something like that. I guess one day I will be there, I guess. But it's not my dream destination. IN fifteen years, I've never visited and I cannot say that it's on my travel list. AK: Do you feel a connection to your birthplace, or do you feel that you have a duty to go back? JK: I have no duty to come back, my mom is living with me here in the United States. My father is there but he can travel, we talk on Skype, he has his own family, thank god everything is fine. So, I would rather invite him to visit me, than to go there. Especially I have two kids so I cannot go myself, it's kind of complicated. Definitely no duty there, and I have no other connection to go there. With technology, when you can always reach your friends and family over Skype and talk to them, it's good enough for me at least. AK: Earlier you mentioned religion and how there was no religion in the Soviet Union, so how did you transition from this atheist place to America, which has so many religions and cultures? What does religion mean to you, and how do you identify? JK: I also grew up so I became a more mature person, but in the 1990's when the Soviet Union fall apart I already got the feeling that I should belong somewhere, I should belong to some kind of idea. Communism fell apart for me so it was not very desirable dream to build communism. But I understood that person has to have some kind of frame and some kind of rules, but some kind of interest in this life to behave in. I think religion in certain ways, not strict one, but something kind of fusion because I belong to Jewish roots and some Russian Christian, so it's hard for me to identify myself that I'm Jewish or I'm Christian. I feel that I cannot say that whatever Jewish people saying is against Christian, or that Christian is in conflict with Jewish principles in religion. So I'm trying to create some kind of fusion, especially here in Brooklyn it's a lot of Jewish organizations and Jewish centers that I kind of like. I like their idea, again I'm against to go deeply into religion because it's very hard to be strictly religious in this crazy society, because you have to do a lot of things. I don't think anybody needs this kind of strict, unless you have some kind of inside call that you have to be this way. But I think it's some kind of mixture of everything, whatever you feel comfortable with, whatever giving you some peace. Whatever you want to do, I think it's great. That's why I love the United States, nobody criticizes anybody. If you're Jewish and want to go to the Synagogue everybody would respect whatever you do. If you're going to Russian Orthodox Church, it's also good. I'm going sometimes to both. I cannot see anything wrong about this. I mean it's great, this is typical United States. This is why I love about United States. AK: Okay my last question, also kind of a hard one. Do you have any regrets, or do you think that if you could go back, you would do something differently in your life and in moving to the States and how you live here? JK: So far, I cannot see anything I did wrong or I would do differently. Again I guess it's coming with some kind of maturity or longer time to look back. I'm pretty happy with my life. I guess if I would immigrate early, it would give me even more opportunities. Probably my transitional period from Soviet Union mentality to American mentality would've been much quicker and faster. But I'm very happy, I cannot say that I have any inside conflicts or something. I think I have some harmony in my soul in my life. AK: Okay, thank you so much! JK: You're welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Julia Kiosse Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kiosse, Julia ; Kiosse, Alexandra Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Julia Kiosse was the daughter of a Russian native and a native Moldovan. She immigrated to the United States in 1998 with her daughter, but without her husband as he could not get the proper documents in time. She lived in a small apartment in Brooklyn for one year before she moved back to Moldova to be with her husband. She moved with her family to the United States in 2000 and settled in Brooklyn. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-26 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Julia Kiosse.wav Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-05 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 59:48 Subject The topic of the resource Kiosse, Julia. --Interviews; Moldovans--United States; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Russian; Jews; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Moldova -- History; Glasnost--Soviet Union; Migrations; Communism; City and town life--New York (State)--New York Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5781dc81c746e671dd6a48210cd1b6a9.jpg 29d4ab8a488ac75e89c11c8355beed34 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2b7be8e337d2094696aa1f32692240b6.mp3 da7f47f783aa92f14aae48ec6b888eaa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Julian Bond, 1940-2015 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Julian Horace Bond (1940 - 2015) was a social activist and leader in the civil rights movement, politician, poet, educator and author. He attended Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. Bond is best known for his fight to take his duly elected seat in the Georgia House of Representatives. He later served as the head of the Southern Poverty Law Center and the NAACP. Bond died in 2015 at his home in Fort Walton Beach, Florida after a brief illness."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Julian Horace Bond (1940 - 2015) was a social activist and leader in the civil rights movement, politician, poet, educator, and author. He attended Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. Bond is best known for his fight to take his duly elected seat in the Georgia House of Representatives. He later served as the head of the Southern Poverty Law Center and the NAACP. Bond died in 2015 at his home in Fort Walton Beach, Florida after a brief illness.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Women's Rights Movement; Activism; Public education; Vietnam War; Race; University Campuses; Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X, Robert Kennedy; John Kennedy; Hubert Humphrey; George McGovern; Muhammad Ali; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; Gerald Ford; Angela Davis; Affirmative Action; Individualism; Tolerance; Cooperative Action; Healing; Vietnam Memorial"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Baby boom generation; Women's Rights Movement; Activism; Public education; Vietnam War; Race; University Campuses; Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Robert Kennedy; John Kennedy; Hubert Humphrey; George McGovern; Muhammad Ali; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; Gerald Ford; Angela Davis; Affirmative Action; Individualism; Tolerance; Cooperative Action; Healing; Vietnam Memorial</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 99:33 Subject LCSH African American politicians--United States; Political activists--United States; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Bond, Julian, 1940-2015--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Julian Horace Bond Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bond, Julian, 1940-2015 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource African American politicians--United States; Political activists--United States; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Bond, Julian, 1940-2015--Interviews Description An account of the resource Julian Horace Bond (1940 - 2015) was a social activist and leader in the Civil Rights Movement, politician, poet, educator and author. He attended Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. Bond is best known for his fight to take his duly elected seat in the Georgia House of Representatives. He later served as the head of the Southern Poverty Law Center and the NAACP. Bond died in 2015 at his home in Fort Walton Beach, Florida after a brief illness. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.24a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.24b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 99:33 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/074eeefbc3f4cd948169391490fd99e2.jpg 5c5261217874e358939a16f5ad71a580 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e403aaf6ff4c9bd47b1740b6ffefcaf6.mp3 19d4eb30e0c6e4b5cd3bea2b388064f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-03-02 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Julius Lester Language English Biographical Text Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, photographer, educator, activist, and musician. Lester was raised in the South and Midwest and received his undergraduate degree in English from Fisk University in 1960. In 1961 he joined SNCC and became their photographer documenting events like Freedom Summer in 1964, the Civil Rights Movement, and the U.S. atrocities in Vietnam during a trip to the country with other members of SNCC. His photography is well documented at the Smithsonian Institution and is part of a permanent collection at Howard University. After teaching for two years at the New School for Social Research, he joined the faculty of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst in 1971 where he taught in the Afro-American Studies Department and the Judaic and Near Eastern Studies Department. Since 1968, Lester published 25 books of fiction, non-fiction, children's books, and poetry. His writings brought him much fame with numerous awards for both adult and children's books. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 213:05 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Montgomery bus boycott; Kathleen Cleaver; Black Panther Party; Muhammad Ali; Civil Rights Movement; Angela Davis; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; James Baldwin; Thurgood Marshall; Leroy Jones; Emmett Till; Lynden Johnson."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305}}">Montgomery bus boycott; Kathleen Cleaver; Black Panther Party; Muhammad Ali; Civil Rights Movement; Angela Davis; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; James Baldwin; Thurgood Marshall; Leroy Jones; Emmett Till; Lyndon Johnson.</span> Subject LCSH Authors; Musicians; Political activists--United States; Lester, Julius--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Julius Lester Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 2 March 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two, three. You answered the first three questions, so I think we might go right in the order of the questions that I sent you. I do not know if you have them in front of you. JL (00:00:15): I do not, but I can certainly... SM (00:00:20): I can just read them. JL (00:00:21): Sure. Yeah. You can go ahead. SM (00:00:23): Yeah. My first question is, in your own words, could you describe what the impact was of the Montgomery Bus Boycott in terms of it had not only on African Americans in the South, but basically, the impact it had overall in the movement? JL (00:00:44): Well, historically, there is a gap between when the Montgomery Bus Boycott happened and the movement itself. The Montgomery Bus Boycott happened in (19)56, (19)57 as I recall. And the impact at the time was not that great. There were no demonstrations or anything that followed that. I certainly think the impact was one of... Interesting that it happened. This was different, but no action happened. The next action that happened was... There was a sit-in at a lunch counter in Oklahoma City in 1959. And once again, this was something that happened, but nothing followed it. And then in February in 1960, the sit-in happened at a lunch counter in Greensboro, North Carolina. And for whatever historical reasons that lunch counter sit in, set off a series of demonstrations and sit-ins in Nashville. And within months it spread all across the south. And so why that happened in 1960 and it did not happen in (19)57 after Montgomery, (19)59 after Oklahoma City, nobody knows. But that was the progression of it. And so, Montgomery was certainly very important both in attacking interrogation on the buses as well as introducing Martin Luther King Jr. and non-violence. But I think at the time, people took a wait and see attitude and just kind of wanted to take in exactly what is this, what is happening, and it is something worth counting on. And by 1960 people felt that it was. SM (00:02:55): Yeah, the boomer generation... I think higher education is the reason why they break these terms down like the greatest generation, the boomer generation, generation X, millennials, and now generation Y. And I know a lot of my interviewees have not liked the terms of trying to define a generation with a term because there is too many different people. But as it is defined, it is those born between (19)46 and (19)64. And so my question is really those individuals who grew up knowing the following African American names due to their presence on television or in the newspapers, could you just give your very brief comments, because there is quite a few here, what their impact was with respect to not only the lack but white communities and bringing equality to people of color. You could either talk about their strengths or weaknesses or their activism. Just very brief comments. Roy Wilkins of the NAACP. JL (00:03:55): Yeah. Well, NAACP was certainly the oldest civil rights organization having started about 1909 I guess it was. And so, it was a pretty mainstream organization and that certainly when the more radical activities of the 1960s began, our Wilkins was opposed to it. But interestingly enough of other organizations from the 1960s, the only one remaining is NAACP. And so that certainly as a mainstream organization, it has been very important not only on the legal front, but also in terms of... And what I mean by a legal front, I mean bringing suits, especially where school interrogation was involved, but also just in its ability to last, to endure. SM (00:04:53): How about James Farmer and CORE? JL (00:04:57): Yeah, I have a list in front of me so I can just go down it. SM (00:04:59): Okay. Very good. JL (00:05:01): James Farmer, CORE, was Commerce of Racial Equality, and it was started in the 1940s and the Freedom Rides of 1961 were started by CORE. CORE started off as a much more mainstream organization with a real commitment to non-violence. And then as the 1960s progressed CORE became more and more radical and pretty much radicalized itself out of the existence. James Farmer was head of the organization during the early 1960s, and especially during the Freedom Rise in 1961. Whitney Young and the Urban League. The Urban League is an organization, which still exist, and its focus has always been much more in terms of employment issues in the black community. And Whitney Young was the head of that organization in the 1960s and died in the mid (19)60s in a drowning accident in Africa. Martin Luther King Jr. of course, he was very familiar with SCLC, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference with the organization that he organized and was very important in terms of organizing demonstrations throughout the South in the 1960s. Robert Moses was a member of SNCC, the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, which I belonged to. And Bob Moses was a graduate of Harvard in mathematics, I believe it was. And he went to Mississippi in the early 1960s and very courageous. He essentially worked by himself in some of the worst places in Mississippi trying to get people to a vote. And he's kind of the legendary figure in the movement. John Lewis was one of the leaders of SNCC in the early 1960s and is now a congressman from Georgia. Julian Bond was a member NAACP in the... We have the past 10 years or so... Was a member of SNCC and if anyone has seen the documentary Eyes on the Prize, it is Julian Bond's voice that narrates that. James Meredith was Black man who was a marine veteran who integrated... Was the first black student in University of Mississippi, an event which set off riots in Oxford, Mississippi and President Kennedy had to nationalize the National Guard and call in the Marines. And I guess three people who were killed. James Meredith later became a very arch conservative. SM (00:08:01): Yeah, that is a shocker. JL (00:08:03): Yeah, he is an interesting fellow shall we say. Ralph Bunch was a US representative of the United Nations and played a part in the United Nations recognizing Israel in 1948. Bayard Rustin and A. Philip Randolph were labor leaders and Bayard Rustin was very important and influential with Dr. King. He was the one who really introduced Dr. King to non-violent and played a behind the scenes role with Dr. King until he was associated with the Communist Party, and he was also gay. And so that he was kind of quietly ushered out of King's Circle. A. Philip Randolph was a labor leader who organized the union of Pullman car Porters on the railroad back in the 1930s and forties I guess it was. And the very first march on Washington. The idea of the march on Washington came about when in 1941, Randolph threatened President Roosevelt with a march on Washington, and I forget what his threat was, whether it had to do with the integration of Washington DC or the integration of armed forces, but it was something along that line which Randolph threatened a march on Washington if they did not come about. And the threat was enough to bring about whatever it was that he was fighting for. Mackenzie was head of CORE at one point. Vernon Jordan was head of the Urban League at one point and is a very high-powered Washington lawyer now and is a very, very close confidant of Bill Clinton. And when Bill Clinton goes to Mount Luther Vineyard, he stays with Vernon Jordan and Dorothy Height was head of the National Negro Council of Women, I believe it was. And she and Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young and several others were known as the Big Six Negro leaders they were called at that time. Stokely Carmichael was head of SNCC, was someone whom I knew. He was the one who introduced to America the term 'Black power'. H. Rap Brown, whom I also knew was head of SNCC after Stokely was head of SNCC. And Rap was much more into radical violence, even though Stokely was too. But Rap was a little bit more serious about it then Stokely was, [inaudible]or that was my impression, and Rap coined the sentence, "Violence is as American as cherry pie." Huey Newton and Eldridge Cleaver were founders of the Black Panther party. Kathleen Cleaver was Kathleen Neil and was a member of SNCC, and I knew her at that time. And then she met Eldridge and married Eldridge, and they were all very prominent in the Black Panther party. Muhammad Ali. of course, Cassius Clay play a very important figure in terms of his resistance to the war in Vietnam and refusing to fight in Vietnam. And another example of the importance that athletes took, I played in the Civil rights movement starting with Joe Lewis really, and then Jackie Robinson certainly. And Muhammad Ali is certainly always reviewed for that. SM (00:12:09): And Kurt Flood too. Definitely. JL (00:12:14): Fred Hampton was a member of the Black Panther Party in Chicago who was killed by the police. David Hilliard was also a Black Panther party member. George Jackson was... My memory of the details on George Jackson are limited. I did review his book for the New York Times, but he was killed attempting to escape from San Quentin. He became kind of an iconic figure for Black Panther party people, but my memory on him is vague. Angela Davis was associated with George Jackson and at one time was wanted by the FBI for armed activities or something, and later caught in the northern California system. Bobby Seal, Black Panther party member. Jesse Jackson identified himself as the successor to Martin Luther King Jr. Minister from Chicago ran for president in 1984. And the first Black person to make a credible run for president. Andrew Young was a very close associate of Martin Luther King Jr. And was mayor of Atlanta for a couple of terms at least. Ralph Abernathy was a minister who was Dr. King's closest friend. They had known each other since they both [inaudible] in Montgomery. Paul Robeson, the singer and actor, 1920s and 1930s. Very, very radical for his time associated with the Communist Party and went into exile for a number of years and lived in East Germany for a number of years. And I did meet him once shortly after he came back from East Germany. James Balman, who was a friend, was a very important writer. And his most important book came up in... Guess it was 1964, The Fire Next Time, which was two essays that really kind of captured the feelings of anger that were going through significant parts of Black America at the time. And certainly Paul, read the move correctly in terms of the predictions of violence that the book expressed. Thurgood Marshall, who was a lawyer for the NAACP Legal and Defense Fund, who argued the Brown vs Topeka case before the Supreme Court that led to the school desegregation decision in 1954. And he himself later became a Supreme Court Justice appointed, I think by Lyndon Johnson. Roy Innis was probably the last leader of CORE and the one who basically presided over its demise. Adam Clayton Powell was a very flamboyant congressman from Harlem for many, many years and was very important civil rights figure in terms of his willingness to speak out in very, very forceful terms, especially in the 1950s. It is when I remember him at a time when nobody black was really speaking out and Adam Clayton Powell certainly did. LeRoi Jones, Amiri Baraka, is a poet and dramatist Leroy Jones, when he was known as a poet most associated with the beat generation. And then he underwent a radical change and identified himself totally with Black issues and black nationalism. And so, he changed his name to Amiri Baraka and lived in Newark, New Jersey and still lives there. And then Richard Wright was the very important novelist who once again articulated, this is in the 1940s, I guess it was, when both Black Boy and Native Son came out and certainly articulated the violence that laid dormant in the emotions of Black American shall say at that time. And he later went into exile and moved to Paris where he died in the early (19)60s. SM (00:16:58): That is excellent description of all those gentlemen. And Dr. Hight. Number six here is really a listing of events. I do not have to read them all over here, but these were major events that really not only made front page news, but really were somewhat shocking to many in America. And it kind of awakened even white America about what was going on in the south. The Schwerner, Chaney, Goodman murders were, I know big front page when I was a little kid. And your thoughts on all these events in terms of how major they were in awakening this nation to the terrible things that were happening in the United States, of which I believe was totally hidden by the media, because if you look at black and white TV in the (19)50s, you hardly ever saw a person of color with the exception Nat King Cole. I think he had a six-week television show during that time period. JL (00:18:03): Yeah. SM (00:18:03): And then Amos and Andy had a show in their early (19)50s, which was kind of slapstick, and then you really did not have anything until you had Ice Spy and Diane Carroll on the nurse program and there was a big gap there, a lot of hidden things. Just your thoughts on these events. JL (00:18:22): Well, Emmett Till was 14, 15 years old and was from Chicago and was visiting his grandfather in Money Mississippi and was accused of whistling at the wife of a white store owner. And he was murdered very, very violently, very, very viciously murdered. His murder had a great impact upon young Black people my age because I was a bit older than Emmett Till. And that certainly it was one of those events that really create a lot of anger in those of us who later would go on to be the generation of the civil rights movement. And so here was a similar event for us, what it was for White America, I have no idea, but certainly Jet Magazine, the mother of Emmett Till had his body photographed and the pictures were published of his body in a Jet magazine or Black Magazine, weekly magazine. And it really, really had an enormous impact. And it certainly had some impact on White America because Bob Dylan wrote a song called The Death of Emmett Till, which was on his first album in the early (19)60s. The church bombing certainly in Birmingham in (19)63 that killed the four girls had a great impact because the march on Washington was at the end of August of 1963, and the church bombing came about three weeks later, about the third week of September. And so that church bombing should follow both closely on the heels of the march on Washington did get a lot of publicity and had a great impact, certainly. And I think it was the event that led President Kennedy... It was the event that led President Kennedy to introduce the Civil rights bill of 1964 into Congress, and no, Lyndon Johnson, I am sorry, Kennedy was not there at that time. It was Lyndon Johnson. And so that had a great impact on America nationwide. James Meredith, 1966, June of (19)66, Meredith was going to do a march against Fear, and he was going to walk from Memphis, Tennessee down to the state of Mississippi, and he got a few miles outside of Memphis, and he was shot, not killed, but he was wounded. But that led to others taking up the march. And it was on that march that Stokely Carmichael first used the phrase 'Black power'. SM (00:21:15): Wow, I did not know that. Wow. JL (00:21:19): And so that certainly got national attention. Delmont 1965 was really what galvanized the... It was after Selma that Lyndon Johnson introduced the 1965 voting white bill, and it was the march that we were going to march to. Well, I mean, the background was basically... There had been a young black man named... What was his name? Jimmie Lee Jackson, who had been murdered, at a demonstration for voting rights. And so the people wanted to march from Stalman to the capital in Montgomery to protest to the governor. And so, the first attempt of the march was met with a lot of violence by men on horseback and this, that and the other. And so subsequently, there was a march that was protected by federal troops. And so, the federal Montgomery March was very important in terms of the eventual passage of the 1965 voting right bill. The murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner, 1964. Chaney was black and Goodman and Schwerner were both white Jewish from New York City. I knew the families of both Goodman and Schwerner, and they were murdered, and their bodies were not found. They were murdered in June. Their bodies were not found until August. And that certainly their murder came at the beginning of the Mississippi or Freedom Summer. And the Freedom Summer was when it was almost a thousand, basically mainly white college students went to Mississippi to register people to vote, and for the summer to begin with their disappearance certainly was an indication that going to Mississippi was a very, very dangerous thing to do that summer. And so certainly their murders were publicized in the nation certainly. It was an important event in terms of focusing the attention of the nation on Mississippi and segregation in Mississippi and just generally the atmosphere of violence against Black people in Mississippi. I mean, it was really a terrorist state as far as I am concerned. I was there before, and it eventually led to significant changes in how delegates were chosen to the Democratic Party. And so, the Democratic Party at that time, which had been controlled primarily about Southern democrats, changed after the summer of (19)64. And so subsequently, the Democratic Party was much more... Became much liberal and much more open than it had been previously. The Freedom Rides were 1961... At that time, it was black and white could not sit together on buses that were leaving the South. When I left Nashville, Tennessee in 1961, I had to sit in the back of the bus until the bus got to a Northern state, and then I could sit anywhere on the bus. And so, the Freedom Rides were to basically enforce the law, which already said that the segregated seating on interstate buses was unconstitutional. And so, the Freedom Rides started in Washington, DC and were going to end in New Orleans, they were organized by CORE, but they did not get any further than Mississippi. When they got to Jackson, Mississippi, people were arrested and put in jail. And so that led to people from all over the country getting on buses and going to the Mississippi and being arrested and going to jail. Before that, the people on the buses had met a lot of violence in both Birmingham, Alabama and Montgomery Alabama. And that also did get a fair share of publicity. But after that summer, there was no more segregation on interstate buses. The murder of Malcolm X 1965, February (19)65. At that particular time, one of the things that may be hard for people to grasp is that both during the lifetime of Malcolm and during the lifetime of Dr. King, they were not the heroic figures they are looked up on to be now. I can certainly recall the New York Times coming out with editorial against Martin Luther King and accusing him of throwing up violent by non-violent demonstrations. And so certainly with Malcolm X, Malcolm X at the time of his death was a minor figure, believe it or not. He was really not that well known outside the black community. And he was certainly seen as somebody who was extremely violent and what have you. And so, there were no tears lost, shed at the death of Malcolm X. And like I said, he is much, much more widely known and revered, and I think he's even been on a stamp than he was during his lifetime. And so, his assassination had little impact compared to the impact of Kings assassination. King’s assassination, certainly there were riots in New York City. There were riots in other places around the country because certainly even though King at that time was preparing the march on Washington, he had come out against the war in Vietnam and was really becoming a lot more radical in his thinking and in his actions in terms of trying to build a coalition of a multi-ethnic coalition as well as a coalition that would involve economic coalition also for whites and for people and what have you, not so, but his assassination certainly set off a great reaction both of violence and of creep at the time. The Little Rock Nine, 1957, I guess we are talking, were black students who integrated at Central High school and [inaudible] had to be escorted in by the National Guard, which Eisenhower nationalized at the time because the governor basically refused to let the students in. There was some violence around that, and that was one of the first events that was covered on television. John Chancellor, who was later an Anchor Man for NBC, covered that for NBC, and that was shown on television and did get a fair amount of publicity. George Wallace standing in the schoolhouse door, this was the 1963, I guess it was, the integration of the rest of Alabama, and George Wallace made this show a pending in the entrance of the administration building, but it was all a show for his constituents because a deal had been worked out with the Kennedy administration where he was standing in the door. While he was standing in the door, federal marshals were escorting... Now, there were two students, Vivian Malone, and I forget the... I cannot think of the young man's name, but anyway, while he was standing in the front door, federal marshals were escorting the Black students in the back door for them to be registered into school. And so, he did that for show. It had no impact upon them getting into school whatsoever. He did not stop them from getting into school. SM (00:30:18): This is important because I know you bring it up in your book, one of your books, that we talk about the tragedies here, but we never talk about... It is like when Dr. King used to give speeches, he used to say that we all have it within us as individuals to bring change to this world, bring justice to the world. And so, it was the people that we never hear about, the people that... And it is the same thing here. We might emphasize Dr. King or Malcolm, and certainly the tragedy of Emmett Till, but there were 4,000 people as you brought up in your book, who were murdered, who were lynched. And this is something that I still think our students today are not aware of or do not seem to...still think our students today are not aware of, or do not seem to have an understanding. JL (00:31:06): Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. Basically, starting after the Civil War, and especially after 1877, when federal troops left the South and the Reconstruction era ended, there began a campaign of terror against Black people carried out by the Ku Klux Klan, and then the local communities, of murdering people, often by hanging them from a tree, lynching them, as a way both of terrorizing the black community, and intimidating anyone who had any thought of doing anything, political, voting, or what have you. People were lynched quite often on trumped-up charges of rape, very few of which could have been proven. They were also lynched if they owned a prosperous store. The reasons why you could be lynched were almost infinite. It reminds me of the summer of (19)64 in Jackson, Mississippi, a civil rights worker was arrested for reckless walking, and so they could make up any charges they wanted. SM (00:32:33): Oh, my gosh. JL (00:32:34): And certainly, from about 1880 until 1970, I guess, the last... Well, no, we got to go into the nineties. There were lynchings in the nineties, but certainly close to 5,000 Black people, both men, and there were women also who were lynched, were lynched in the South. And Congress, the Senate passed a resolution a few years ago, apologizing for the fact that even though the NAACP tried every year from 1919 forward to get the Congress to pass a federal law against lynching, so that lynchers could be arrested and tried in federal court at least, Congress never did it. And so, the Senate did issue an apology for not doing what it should have done for all those years. SM (00:33:35): I know right here, and you may be aware of it, in, I think it is Coatesville, Pennsylvania, the murder of... They actually put a historic sign up a couple of years ago. It was torn down and they put it up again. And we are talking about, I forget, the professor from Franklin and Marshall came over and talked about it, but it was... There was one in the 1940s as a follow-up to this one that they were putting the marker up for. It is a terrible tragedy, and people were saying, "This happened here?" One thing that is very important, you talk about the March on Washington. We all know that Kennedy was very pragmatic with respect to, he was worried about what could happen in the city. And A. Philip Randolph, I think he trusted more than any of the other leaders. But there is a comment that, and I'd just like your thoughts here from your book, however, respond to your criticism that the March is a great inspiration to those who think something is accomplished by having black bodies next to white bodies. JL (00:34:48): At the time, and I remember the March on Washington vividly. My wife went to it, I did not. And I thought it was really a publicity thing. I thought it was good public relations. I did not see what else it would accomplish. And certainly, the fact that the four girls were bombed, were killed less than a month after it kind of confirmed my opinion at the time. Well, I was just never impressed with the March on Washington. I thought King's speech was great, but I just saw it as a PR thing. I did not see it as effective politics. SM (00:35:27): Yeah, the quote that you have here was, "The march was nothing but a giant therapy session that allowed Dr. King to orate about his dreams of..." I do not even like to use the word, the N word, "Eating at the same table of a Georgia cracker, while most blacks just dreamed of eating." JL (00:35:44): Yep-yep, yep. I would not repudiate those words now. SM (00:35:53): In your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? And what was the watershed moment? JL (00:36:01): Well, I would certainly say probably February 1960. And I would probably say that they ended with the death of King. I think King was the center, and when the center was not there, things fell apart. And actually, I would say, well, I will back up from that. I will say that the Civil Rights Movement had two goals, and the two goals were to integration, and public accommodation, and to ensure the right of Black people to vote. And those were accomplished in 1964 and 1965. And I would say the Civil Rights Movement ended in of 1965 with it fulfilling its goals. And I think one of the unfortunate things is that we never celebrated that we won. And so (19)65, the Civil Rights Movement ended. (19)66, you had the beginning of Black power, and certainly the mood turns much angrier, and there is much more rhetoric of violence and actual violence with the coming of the Black Panther Party. And then (19)68 King, and also the rise of Black nationalism also comes (19)65, (19)66, and then King is killed in (19)68, and certainly things are done by then. SM (00:37:33): Yeah. Actually, this bleeds right into question eight and nine on the second page there, is if you could describe the strengths and weaknesses of the activists who believed in the philosophy of Gandhi, that nonviolence is the only way to protest. And secondly, the change that took place, the strengths and weaknesses of activists who believed that going beyond nonviolence, via either armed confrontation, or burning buildings, or tougher talk, or being more aggressive, which these individuals are labeled. I know that Bobby Seale has said over and over again that, "We were not violent." I have seen him talk many times. He said, "We had guns to protect ourselves," he says that "but we never used them." Now, I do not know what your thoughts... So, what would be the strengths and weaknesses of these two approaches? Because these are the people that- JL (00:38:24): Well, the strength of non-violence was very, very effective as long as it was used against very recognizable institutions, segregated lunch counters, and things of that sort. The weakness of nonviolence is that racism does not exist in a concrete building where with the sign on it saying, " No coloreds allowed." Racism is so much more amorphous and resides in the spirits and the minds of people. And that is very difficult for non-violence to attack. The strengths of the Black radical movement was- certainly was that it was a movement aimed at changing the consciousness, number one, probably, of Black people, which is something that began with Malcolm X, beginning to change the consciousness of how Black people thought about themselves. And then also changing how Black people thought about white people and changing how white people thought about themselves. The weakness of the Black radical movement, despite what Bobby Seale says, is that if there is anything America knows about, its violence. And if you present an image of dressed in a black beret and black turtleneck and black pants and a black leather jacket carrying a rifle to white America, they know how to deal with that. And so that even though the Black Panthers may never have fired a gun, which I doubt very, very seriously, they certainly were what Lenin called agent provocateurs, and so they certainly provoked violence. And I spoke out against the Black Panther Party at the time, and I continue to speak up against them now. SM (00:40:40): Would you put the Weather Underground who split from SDS? JL (00:40:46): Yeah, I would- SM (00:40:47): As well as the Brown Berets that followed the Chicanos, who followed the Black Panthers in the same boat? JL (00:40:53): The Brown Berets, I really know nothing about, but certainly the Weather Underground, they were well-intentioned, but that certainly the way to attack America, the way to change America, is not through violence, because that is what America's good at, is violence. SM (00:41:21): I put the AIM leaders in there too, because the AIM went from Alcatraz in 1969 to Wounded Knee in (19)73. JL (00:41:30): Yeah, once again, I really do not know enough for about AIM, about the details of what happened at Wounded Knee to really talk about it. The other thing, which is really hard to get someone to understand, is that 1968 was an amazing year in terms of all the things that were happening in the country, and certainly, a lot of people believed that we were on the verge of a revolution, and that was people both in the government, as well as people on the left. And so, while it is easy to look back and criticize the Weather Underground, at the time, it certainly seemed like that it was going to be possible to bring about revolutionary change in this country. SM (00:42:28): Do you like the term Boomer Generation, and if not, what would be a better term to describe it? JL (00:42:36): It is not my generation. I have no opinion one way or the other. SM (00:42:40): But you know something Julius, can I call you Julius? JL (00:42:45): Yeah, you may. SM (00:42:45): Yep. One of the things that is interesting, because I think you found in the same category, is many of the people that were born in that period between say 1937 and (19)45, feel that they are more closer to the boomers, the front edge boomers, than those that were the last 10 years of the boomers. Because if you are in graduate school in the early (19)70s, we were taught that the leaders of the movement were usually people that were the graduate students, that were in their late twenties, which means they were born in that timeframe. So, in a sense, a lot of the people that are your age claim that they really have the boomer spirit, and I have noticed that. I do not know if you feel that, but you were a very important part of that spirit. JL (00:43:26): Yeah, I do not, and I do not because I feel like, well... I was born and was, I guess, seven years old when the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. SM (00:43:49): Yes. JL (00:43:50): And I consider that to be a watershed event in world history. And I think there is a difference. For me, there is a difference between whether one was born before that happened, and whether one was born after that happened. The difference being whether you grew up believing, knowing that the world could be destroyed by the dropping of certain kinds of bombs, and whether you reached an age of consciousness without knowing the world could be destroyed. SM (00:44:23): Wow. Very well- JL (00:44:24): And so, for me, that is a big difference. Also growing up with radio, as opposed to growing up with television, is also, to me, a big difference. And so, I do not see myself as part of the Boomer generation at all. SM (00:44:44): Please describe in a few words your role with SNCC as an organization photographer. I know you were assigned to cover a lot of the events and activities. I know you went with Stokely to Vietnam during that timeframe. JL (00:44:58): I went with him to Cuba, not to Vietnam. SM (00:45:00): Oh, okay. Cuba, my mistake. JL (00:45:03): Yeah. I went to Vietnam separately from him, but I was in Cuba with him. SM (00:45:11): Yeah. Could you discuss some of the events you covered, and what did you learn from that experience that you maybe did not know before you were that photographer? JL (00:45:19): Well, my role in SNCC was very modest. I came into SNCC in 1966 as a photographer. And by that time, the demonstrations and the voter registration campaigns were over. I did photograph, there was a riot in Atlanta in 1966, I photographed that. There was the riot in Newark in 1967, which I also photographed. But primarily my role in SNCC was to, number one, write and produce materials using the photographs. And so, I produced calendars using the photographs, and other materials, publications, that SNCC did. Also, when I was with SNCC, I also wrote my first book when I was living in Atlanta with SNCC, which was Look Out, Whitey! Black Power Gon' Get Your Mama. I wrote during the winter of 1966, I guess it was, (19)67. I was also a folk singer in those years. And so, I went to Cuba for a protest song festival. And the first day I was there, unbeknownst to me, Stokely showed up in Cuba. And so, I switched from the protest song festival to live with Stokely and go around with him. So, because of that, I got to spend three days traveling through the mountains in Eastern Cuba. I wanted to talk to Stokely, and so we spent three days traveling around the Sierra Maestras. SM (00:47:13): Wow. JL (00:47:17): And that was fascinating. That really was fascinating. And then also that year, I spent a month in North Vietnam. The Burton Russell Foundation had organized a war crime tribunal to be held in Stockholm, Sweden, the spring of (19)66, (19)67. And so, two people were sent from SNCC, myself and Charlie Cobb were sent from SNCC to get a testimony. This was during a time when the US was still denying it was bombing North Vietnam. And so, we ended up spending a month in North Vietnam, and I did a lot of photographing in North Vietnam, showing the United States was very definitely lying about bombing, since I was certainly very close to a bombing raid on more than one occasion when I was there. SM (00:48:05): Well, did you ever see Che Guevara? JL (00:48:05): Never did. Che Guevara was already in Bolivia when I was in Cuba. SM (00:48:06): Oh, okay. Yeah, because he was a hero to many of the new left students, particularly many of the ones that were in Columbia in (19)68. This next question is basically centered on the students who came south, the white students. And it is amazing. The majority of them, I believe were Jewish, because I am amazed. When I talk to everybody, the Jewish background, I know there were some Catholic white students as well, but there were a thousand that went south. And just your thoughts on them, in terms of their overall impact. And we all know that Mario Savio, he was not Jewish, but he was one of those students who went back to Berkeley and tried to hand out literature. And that is when all that stuff happened, and the free speech movement started because of it, because they were recruiting students to go south. And I know that Tom Hayden was another one who had been south, and others had gone back to recruit on college campuses. And there was also that period of time when there was a question over who was leading the organizations. And was there sensitivity within the Freedom Summer that African Americans instead of whites do the running of the events? JL (00:49:34): Oh, yeah. There was... Well, how can I put it? Most people in SNCC were opposed to Freedom Summer. They did not want all these white kids going to Mississippi. They also recognized that they had been working in Mississippi for three years. And again, very-very little publicity. People had been beaten and put in jail and close to being killed, a couple of them. And so, they also recognize that a thousand white students coming to Mississippi would bring publicity. One of the real ironies of all of this is that I think I mentioned before, both the Schwerner and Goodman families were friends of mine, and I was friends with Andrew, Mickey Schwerner's brother, and was talking with him that Spring of (19)64, and he said, "What needs to happen is for one of those white kids to get killed." And of course, not knowing that one of those white kids was going to be his kid brother. And so, that certainly, there was a recognition that they will bring the newspapers and the publicity will come with them. And so, the state was split up into congressional districts, and there was at least one congressional district where the SNCC leader who was head of the project in that district would not allow white students to work in his district. And so that certainly, there was a tension between who is running the show, and certainly I, myself, witnessed a certainly unintentional insensitivity on the part of some of the white students in terms of working with blacks, because they simply were not aware of the social dynamics, and what have you. And so certainly there was tension, and certainly the SNCC people involved made a great effort to stay in control and to give the orders. And it was a success politically, but internally, it was not a happy summer. SM (00:52:09): Yeah. I remember one of the leaders of the trainers was Staughton Lynd. JL (00:52:18): Yep. SM (00:52:18): And I guess they trained up north, and then they went south. So, did they have issues even with him being a trainer? JL (00:52:25): I do not think so, no. Staughton was real well respected. No, there is not a question about that. SM (00:52:28): Yep. Would you compare the... thirteen, there. Would you compare the SDS in the late (19)60s with its change from, we talked about earlier, about going more radical, to the SNCC and the same time period because we saw Stokely go from SNCC to more of a black power, more radical attitude. And just your thoughts on that. And some of the members of the... I think H. Rap Brown was in SNCC, and then he went to the Black Panthers. So, would you see the switches happening around the same time for those organizations? JL (00:53:05): Oh yeah. They were. And certainly, I think it had to do with a progression of political learning, going from thinking that the problem was segregation and lack of voting rights to a recognition that the problem was really systemic, and that the systemic part of it for Black people was racism. The systemic part of it for SDS was capitalism. So, it was like, how do you demonstrate? You do not demonstrate against racism; you cannot demonstrate against capitalism. You really have to change them. And so, the way to change them is through revolution. And so, people became much more doctrinaire, and that was certainly a lot of the reason for the downfall of both SDS and SNICC at that time. H. Rap Brown, Rap took on the title of Minister of Defense of the Black Panther Party, but he never worked actively with the Black Panther Party. And I was close to Rap during this time. And so, he did that more as a... I am not sure how to describe it, but he did that more as a listening kind of a thing. He really never worked actively with the Black Panthers. SM (00:54:50): I am actually going to be interviewing Ed, E. Charles Brown, his brother. JL (00:54:55): Oh, yeah? SM (00:54:56): Yeah, sometime in the next three, four weeks. I guess Ed has had a stroke, but he's okay. And Ed, I want the story. He was very close to his brother, and it really had an effect on his health, I guess, the loss of his brother, to going to jail out west, and so forth. And he firmly believed that H Rap Brown was set up, and he did not kill that person. It is a total set up. So, I am looking forward to my interview with Ed. JL (00:55:26): Yeah. SM (00:55:27): In your eyes, how important were the Beats in terms of creating what I call an anti-establishment feeling in the (19)60s? We all know about Alan Ginsburg, Kerouac, Cassidy, Ferlinghetti, Leroy Jones, Gary Snyder. We all know that the Beats were very important in their writing, and people were reading them. But they were not large in number, and they were based in San Francisco and New York, in the Village. And we know the Bohemian lifestyle affected a lot of it. How did it affect the African American community? JL (00:56:02): Very little. Certainly, Beat Generation had an enormous impact upon me for the positive. And I certainly saw myself as part of the Beat Generation. Ended up spending the summer of (19)59 in San Francisco on North Beach specifically, because that is where it was happening, and that is where I wanted to be. But the Beat Generation had an enormous impact upon the hippies. The hippies came from the Beat Generation. And from the hippies, you go to Abbey Hoffman and Jerry Ruben and that whole group. And so, the Beat Generation had an enormous impact on the (19)60s through their impact on the hippies. But in terms of Black America, very little impact. SM (00:56:59): Let me change my tape here. Got to turn it over. How is your weather? JL (00:57:06): Today is warm, supposed to be a cold month. SM (00:57:13): Has not been melting the last three days. Well, anyway. JL (00:57:21): We have so much snow on the ground. It will be green, maybe, for a dog gone, unless we hit some 90 degree temperatures in here. It has been a miserable, miserable winter. SM (00:57:26): Oh, yeah. We are expecting snow on the weekend here. So, what were the writings, what were the books that you were reading in the (19)50s and (19)60s? What were the books that had the best... And obviously you are a great writer, but before you became that writer, what were you reading? JL (00:58:09): Well, certainly in our (19)50s, early (19)60s, I was reading, I was reading Kerouac, and I was reading Ginsburg, Henry Miller, D. H. Lawrence, Aldous Huxley, James Baldwin, Richard Wright, Thomas Merton. Those were some of the people I was reading in the (19)50s and early (19)60s. SM (00:58:17): In the area of the Civil Rights Movement, and certainly in the anti-war movement, a lot has been written that the women's movement was a direct result of the sexism that took place within both of those historic movements. Your thoughts on that, because I know we had a program within our university that if Dr. King was sitting on the stage today, the first thing they would ask him is, "Why were you such a sexist?" So just your thoughts on the women's role in the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war movement, and the importance of, that is the one of the why the women's movement was created. JL (00:59:01): Well, I do not know that I am qualified to talk about that, because it was not something which... I think it is more complicated than people have talked about. It is not as clear cut as people have talked about, and it is just not something I want to talk about. SM (00:59:48): Yeah. I will make just one other comment, and that is, when you look at that March on Washington in (19)63, the only person you see a female, there is Dorothy Height standing to the right, and Mahalia Jackson, who sang, so that is been brought up. The Generation Gap, obviously a very big thing in the (19)60s. The Generation Gap was the differences between parents and students on culture, and certainly the counterculture. Certainly, they are staying on the war in Vietnam, or could have been on any of the movements itself. Was there a generation gap that in the African American community too, between parents and... Because when I talk the Boomer generation years, I am trying... Boomer generation to me, includes everyone, includes all seventy... The question is whether it is (19)74 to (19)79, I do not think we even know how many million we are talking about here, but the generation gap was very important because of the differences between parents and their children. Were there differences in the African American communities? JL (01:00:54): There were differences until the children got arrested. When the children got arrested, there was no more generation gap. The parents... I remember very clearly in Nashville, when the sit-ins happened, and the first arrest happened. The elder generation had been leery up until the point when the first arrest happened. The older generation provided support, food, money, what have you. And within the Black community, there was the generation gap comes later with the more cultural things. When the Afros come in and the wearing dashikis come in, and you have more of a generation gap over the style. But in terms of the politics itself, there was no generation gap. SM (01:01:54): In your book, Look Out, Whitey! Black Power Gon' Get Your Mama, the next part is basically just responding to some of your quotes, if that is okay? JL (01:02:02): Sure. SM (01:02:02): I think we are just responding to some of your quotes, if that is okay? JL (01:02:03): Sure. SM (01:02:04): First off, on number eight then, when you wrote the book, it was right in the middle of one of the most tumultuous times in the (19)60s. Of course, (19)68 is a noun because of all the tragic things you already talked about that happened, including the two major assassinations and what we saw at the Democratic Convention and actually tech, and so a lot of things. But to me, and this is me personally who had read it many years back, to me, this book is really a great description of the times and the divisions between Black and white, plus the feelings of people of color felt toward America that did not care about all its citizens. Could you comment on the following? I am just putting this here for the record. [inaudible] identified with a poor, the spies, the downtrodden, the humiliated. It was different from the students’ citizens in 1960 where people had to dress up in suits and ties to prove they were clean. Now, it is changing where the workers' dress fits the people they were helping through overalls and so forth. Just your thoughts on these changes because the approach that young African Americans took towards the protests at different times, making sure that the people that they were representing felt comfortable with how they looked. JL (01:03:27): Yes, correct. I think it is smart politics. You change your approach depending upon whom you are, what you are working for, and yeah. So, I think it was smart politics. I mean, certainly in the 1960s, early (19)60s with the sit-in movement, it was very, very important to get dignified. And although it was not much a matter of clean as it much was a matter of appearing non-threatening, put it that way. And looking no different than any well-dressed white person. And so certainly in terms of creating an image for the movement, it was the right industry to protect. And then when you begin working-working in a rural area in the south, both practically, it is impractical to go around in a suit and a tie and what have you. And also, you want the people with whom you are trying to organize to be comfortable with you. And so that-that is what some people do. If they were able to be in overalls, I never did felt the need to do that. Never felt that I could not do what I was there to do. Just by guessing like I normally did, and I normally did not wear suit and tie, and I normally did not wear overalls either. So, I think it is a matter of simply being a good organizer. SM (01:05:12): In the marching of Washington (19)63, I think Stokely was right on. But your thoughts on this that, and I just interviewed George Houser a couple of days ago, and I interviewed Elizabeth Lasch-Quinn too about her dad, Christopher Lasch, and we talked about the fact that the Civil Rights Movement was centered on the moral compass. And Stokely said, this is a quote "politics demands a certain rhetoric. It does not demand moral action to fit the rhetoric", is what Stokely said. This was certainly true when John Lewis had to remove one line from a speech that said, "I want you to know which side the federal government is on". I find that prophetic, but just your words and the fact that with John Kennedy and why he eventually allowed the march, it is number one. And in Stokely's comments about it should be strictly about the morality. JL (01:06:15): I am not sure what you are asking me. SM (01:06:18): I am asking you what are your thoughts on Stokely's comments that politics demands a certain rhetoric. It does not demand more action to fit the rhetoric, is what he said. JL (01:06:29): Yeah. Honestly, I am not sure I understand what Stokely said. What he said does not make total sense to me. And I guess I disagree with it. Yeah, I guess I am much more on the side of the rhetoric and the moral action being one and the same. And so, I do not know that I agree with what Stokely said. SM (01:07:04): This is another important thing too, because I grew up in Ithaca, New York area, and I can remember when Dr. King went to Cicero and all the, well, first off, the hatred up in the Chicago area toward Dr. King, but also the real divisions that were taking place within the Civil rights leadership about his decision to go north when Robert wanted to stay south. And you bring this up talking about the fact that segregation was an issue up north, and Dr. King knew it. Yet he was criticized for extending protests to the North because many of his peers wanted him to concentrate in the South. And I thought what Malcolm said about everything south of the Canadian border was south. Which I had not heard before and I am glad I reread your book. How important, well, was Dr. King and how heavily criticized was he within his own community for going north? JL (01:07:57): Well, I think the problem was that the tactics that had worked in the South would not work in the North. And so, he could not export the demonstration style approach of civil rights in the north, because the problems were very different. And I know that Dr. King had an apartment on the south side of Chicago, and I guess tried to live there for a time, but his efforts in the north were really a failure. And SNCCs in the North, SNCCs tried to do some things in Philadelphia, and they were also a failure. Malcolm X had much more sense of the temper of the Northern Black communities. CORE was much more of a Northern-based civil rights group and had much more of a sense of what was an effective way to work in the Northern communities than I think SNCCs or Dr. King did. And so, Dr. King I think was criticized because I think there were people who felt there were still a lot to be done in the South, which certainly there was, and he did not know the north. And so, he basically failed when he went north. SM (01:09:29): What did you think of his Vietnam speech? JL (01:09:41): His Vietnam speech was excellent. I thought his Vietnam speech was really a moral high point of his life and career. SM (01:09:43): And I agree. I agree. Can you talk about that? You already made reference to how important was Fannie Lou Hamer and her challenge with Lyndon Johnson in the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party in (19)64, but how important really was that in the scheme of things at that time? JL (01:10:00): It was extremely important. The Mississippi Democratic Party was all white, and that basically the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party was organized to go to the convention in Atlantic City and appear before the Credentials Committee of the Democratic Party Convention to ask them to unseat the regular representative of the Democratic Party because there was segregation and to seat the MFDP instead. What the Credentials Committee was, it did not unseat the Mississippi Democratic Party, but it did offer two honorary seats to the MFDP, which they turned down. And Mrs. Hamer was very, very critical in all of that because she appeared before the Credentials Committee and her speech was so forceful and so eloquent that it was interrupted by Lyndon Johnson who came on television to make an announcement about something totally irrelevant because he did not want people to see her anymore on television. SM (01:11:18): Yeah, I remember watching TV when that one was happening. I was really into politics when I was a young kid. Again, this is an important quote from you. This is your quote: "if the press had screamed as loudly for the end of segregation and discrimination as it screamed for law and order, segregation would have a vague memory in (19)68. Somehow law and order became all important. Or when Black people take to streets and burn and wipe out a few of the white man's stores, law and order is never so important when the police are whipping N Heads on the weekend." And then you finally say, "law and order must prevail is the cliche of the (19)60s and the biggest lie because the American black man has never known law and order except as an instrument of repression". Any additional thoughts on that or is that? JL (01:12:14): No, I really had not read that in I do not know how many years, but that about summed it up. I mean, I certainly think that placed it pretty directly. SM (01:12:23): You have a way of really writing down. Your book is full of quotes. I could have had a hundred of them here. You are a very good writer, and you really expressed the feelings of the times too in that book. And then as a follow-up here, Ronald Reagan, if you remember, came to power in California under two banners, law, and order to stop the protests on college campus, IE the free speech movement in People's Park. And then, of course, to end the welfare state that he was against. And these were direct attacks on the protests and the welfare state handouts at work. He came to the presidency on those two goals. So, law and order was what Reagan was all about. So, in a sense, when he came to power in the (19)80s... JL (01:13:15): Well, but the law-and-order thing started with Nixon, and I think in the (19)68 election, it was certainly unfortunate that there was so much violence in the streets of Chicago at the Democratic Convention. And it certainly made it seem like the Democratic Party was the party of chaos and disorder. And Nixon campaigned very hard on a law-and-order platform, and we know the results. And so, Reagan was following up on Nixon. Nixon pioneered the law and order. SM (01:13:54): And also, could you describe the changes in the Civil Rights Movement? I think you put it beautifully in the book where you state in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, "we shall overcome" is the real moral, the singing "we shall overcome", and then we go to black and white together, and then we go to black power. So, would you say, just as you state in your book, those are the three shifts? JL (01:14:18): Yes, I would, yeah. SM (01:14:20): When was Black and white together? We all know that, I think, "we shall overcome" was probably up to (19)64, (19)65. JL (01:14:35): Well, "black and white together" was simply one of the versions of "we shall overcome". And so that as long as "we shall overcome" was being sung, "black and white together" was put off in the last verse of "we shall overcome". And so, they were both going on at the same time. Yeah. So "we should overcome", another important song that came out of Mississippi was "freedom is a constant struggle". But I mean, Black power, the chant was "what do you want? Black power. When do you want it? Now". And that certainly had its call, Larry, with the songs of Jim Morrison and The Doors, "we want the world, and we want it now". And so, there was certainly a shift from, I would say, the more patient and the approach that had more respect for political process being slow. And you certainly find that in the cadences of social overcome, which have a slow dignity to it, but then there is that need for immediate gratification that we find, and "what do you want? Black power. When do you want it? Now. And we want the world, and we want it now". And certainly, if I were to say, if there is one thing that characterizes boomers, the culture has inoculated them with the need for hints and gratification. SM (01:16:28): Yeah. Yeah. You just bring up, what would be the strengths and weaknesses of boomers, if you were to look at this? JL (01:16:36): Oh, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear. I am really going to stay away from that completely. SM (01:16:42): Okay. All right. This is another quote. "It does not matter how many Ralph Bunche's, Jackie Robinson's and Martin Luther King's, the white man projects his models of what the meager should be. Blacks will always be more like Little John and Big Red". This was in 1968. How does it apply to 2011 when MLK Day happens, and Jackie Robinson's number 42 is now being recognized in all the baseball parks? Is this more about white men than Black men today? Explain in terms of (19)68 to 2011. JL (01:17:17): Oh boy, there is really no way to. SM (01:17:19): Is that really in a statement just at the times, the feelings, and you may have? JL (01:17:34): I mean, "Big Red" was written off next to us. And Malcolm X. And I do not remember who Little John was, but there is really no comparison between (19)68 and 2011. I mean, in 2011, you have, I do not know how many black millionaires, I mean, when I looked at professional basketball and pro football, I am looking at a bunch of millionaires playing a game, and majority of them are black, and the majority of them are not doing a damn thing with a million dollars to do anything for Black people. And so that what I said in (19)68, is in no way part of 2011. What we have in 2011, what we really have is so far away from the values articulated by King, the kinds of values that Jackie Robinson represented. We have Black athletes and entertainers now who are totally into the culture of conspicuous consumption and a narcissistic culture. And I think it is shameful and disgraceful. With millions that exist in the Black community now and they are spending it all on jewelry and cars and airplanes, and what have you, while people do not have places to live. And it is absolutely absurd. SM (01:19:11): You are so right on this. I wish you would write about this because I can think of one person who has done really good right now, and that is Magic Johnson, because I think Magic, even though he still has the glow of a rich man, he's given a lot back to his community. And that this is a man who understands where he came from in Lansing, Michigan, and he has never forgotten it. And I would also say Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is another person who has done unbelievable things. And of course, he is fighting cancer right now, but I would put those two that have done good things. But you are right on the majority. JL (01:19:47): Yeah. SM (01:19:55): And it is upsetting. The last quote I have here is just this one on number 19 here, "whenever a Black man asserts what wife try to put him down, but in the act of self-assertion is not a threat unless whites choose to make it so. Yet they always choose Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali and Adam Clayton Powell are only three examples of Black men that White America wanted lynched. What whites said to them was what has always been said to the Blacks, and you must think you as good as a white man", Stokely said. Now, just you still any comments on that. And then Silky said, hell, I am better. That is kind of Black pride. JL (01:20:39): Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, that phrase was, even when liberals said it, "you can be as good as a white person", was always kind of condescending. Given the record of white people, I would want to be better than white people when it comes to a lot of things. I do not know that I have any comment on that now. I do not know whether or not I would have to really speak think whether or not what I wrote then applies now. And that certainly, I mean, you do see it applying when a member of Congress tells the President of the United States when he is making the State of the Union address that you're lying. He would not have said that to a white president. And so that I think it may not be the general rule anymore, it certainly does still apply. And that certainly you would not have the number of- it is so odd that nobody challenged John McCain's citizenship, even though he was born in the Panama Canal, that Barack Obama's citizenship is still being disputed by a lot of people out there. And they simply would not do that if you were white. SM (01:22:17): I guess I had one more quote there, and then just in general, if anyone wonders why the anger of blacks is so often turned upon the white liberal is because, while professing to be a friend, the white liberal has generally turned out to be more white than liberal whenever blacks assert themselves. JL (01:22:34): Yeah. SM (01:22:35): Is that still true or was that (19)68? JL (01:22:38): Well, what is sadly true now is that when Kennedy died, the last liberal died. I do not see white liberals anymore. There is nobody, being from the state of Massachusetts, I certainly love Kennedy and miss Kennedy, because nobody spoke with the passion that he did about liberal causes, and there is nobody left, and that there are no white liberals anymore. SM (01:23:11): So that attack on the, remember there were several books out there, the L word. People were hiding from the L word. If they were hiding from the L word, then they were not really liberals. JL (01:23:21): They are not really liberals. SM (01:23:23): If you are proud to be a liberal, you stand up for being a liberal. And remember too, that in the (19)60s, the anti-war movement was against the liberal Johnson, as well as Richard Nixon. So, there was no liberal, conservative, did not matter. And then whites can never be accepted as allies with Blacks until they get rid of their arrogance, which leads them to think that they are greater authorities on Blacks and Blacks themselves until they stop going to the Daniel Moynihan or come to the ghetto and learn for themselves. Is that your direct relation to the Moynihan report? JL (01:23:57): That was in relationship to the Moynihan Report, but it is also just in general. The attitude certainly was, much more in the (19)60s, of the whites knew better than we did. And so, it was an attitude that said, well, you should go slow. You are trying to go too fast. And certainly, that was the attitude of the New York Times and a lot of the liberal journals of the time about the activities of the Civil Rights Movement. Slow down, be patient, what have you. Well, you know, you are not the ones being discriminated against. And whether or not, I certainly think that attitude has changed a lot, that as Black people, we have asserted our authority over our experience. And I think that for the most part, that is respected these days. So that quote would not apply as much now as it certainly did in 1968. SM (01:25:04): And then you also said something that I think is another. You have got some unbelievable quotes in here. "In Black culture. It is the experience that counts not what is said". That is a quote from you. JL (01:25:18): Yeah. I am not certain. Yeah. Well, I mean, you certainly have me at a disadvantage because you have read the book certainly far more recently than I have. SM (01:25:26): I almost memorized it. It is so good. I wish in graduate school. JL (01:25:35): I am certainly flattered. SM (01:25:35): Well, if I was a professor in graduate school right now, I would require students to read your book because, I am a higher education person, I believe they are not being taught anything about the history of higher education, about what happened back then. It is all about theory, and I am tired of it. JL (01:25:53): Yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah. Yeah. SM (01:25:53): Theory-theory, theory. And you got to know your history. And if you do not know your history and theory's only good until you get into the job, then you just simply, you have got to do your job. JL (01:26:05): Tell me about that. Yeah. SM (01:26:06): In your own words, could you define Black power? JL (01:26:16): Well, Black power was very simply the belief that Blacks could be in control of the institutions, of their communities, as well as be in control of the cultural and political definitions by which they are know. SM (01:26:46): You also mentioned in the book, and again, I have got you at a disadvantage because you have not referred to it in a while, but you also mentioned about Dr. King, that he did not "condemn black power outright, but sought to temper with love. It is important for the Negro to gain black power". But the term Black power is unfortunate because, this is Dr. King, "Black power's unfortunate because it gives the impression of black nationalism. We must never seek power exclusively for the Negro, but the sharing of power with white people". And this is Dr. King speaking again, and "any other courses exchanging one form of tyranny for another. Black supremacy would be equally as vile as white supremacy." Then you state "that is what white folks want, wanted to hear". All right. Those are Dr. King's thoughts. What are your thoughts on those thoughts? JL (01:27:35): Well, I would certainly, subsequent to that, to me in the (19)70s, I did write things in essential agreement with Dr. King. That certainly Black nationalism, as it evolved, was basically substituting the word black for the word white. It was simply white nationalism warmed over as it were. And so that essentially, there is no substantive difference between any kind of nationalism. Nationalism is always looking inward. It is always exclusionary. It is certainly, you know, you created them and an us kind of situation. And invariably you can have conflict. And so that now, I would certainly, well, as I did in the (19)70s. The (19)70s, I came much closer to agreeing with things King said than I did when he was alive. SM (01:28:42): A very important thing because you became a Jew at a certain point in your life, and you wrote another great book that I read quite a few years back on this, that you wrote. And what is interesting is, if you may recall on Sunday morning when Charles Kuralt was alive in the nineties, they had a whole program on Sunday morning looking at the history of the relationship between African Americans and Jewish Americans and how people were starting to forget that history as people were passing away. And so, a gentleman with a lot of money put together that conference down at the Carter Center. And so, the whole program was about interviews, and James Farmer was there. I know Rabbi Heschel's daughter was there looking at that historic relationship between the two groups because of the incident of Jesse Jackson and other events that were kind of splitting these groups. Young people may have thought they were historic enemies when in reality they were friends. Could you, in your own words, a person who, not only through your religion, but through your here history as an African-American, the important relationship between African-American is the Jewish Americans from the get-go in the Civil Rights Movement? JL (01:30:03): Well. SM (01:30:03): The partnership. JL (01:30:07): I am one of those who, since, from that point of view, I think that the extent the relationship between Blacks and Jews has always been exaggerated. It has been a relationship primarily between segments of the Jewish middle class and the Black middle class. It never was a relationship that involved the Black lower classes or the black working classes, nor the Jewish working classes. I mean, there were riots in Harlem in 1929 because Jewish storekeepers would not hire a Black person at stores. Same thing happened in Chicago in the 1930s. And so, I really think that it's such a distortion of the history of blacks and Jews, relations between black and Jews, and it paints a much more rosy picture of black-Jewish relationships than actually existed. Black anti-Semitism has always existed in the Black community, in black urban areas. And it came to the surface with Minister Farrakhan. Well, it came to the surface with Malcolm X and then with Minister Farrakhan in the 1980s. It was nothing new. It's been there all the time. So, I have also written about this. I just think the picture has been greatly, greatly distorted. The black Jewish connection was never as rosy as we have been led to think. SM (01:31:49): It is interesting because I interviewed David Garrow over at Princeton when he was here, and I mentioned that Rabbi Heschel was a very close friend of Dr. King and had a great influence. And he said, I am going to correct you on that. And he said, yeah, they were friends, but he did not have that great influence on Dr. King. And I was always under the assumption that Rabbi Heschel was one of the first people that persuaded King to give that speech in (19)67 on Vietnam. And he kind of, well, he did not say yes or no to that, but he kind of lessened the importance of that relationship. In your view, was Rabbi Heschel and Dr. King very close friends? JL (01:32:23): My sense is that they knew each other, and certainly Dr. King was going to go to Passover at Rabbi Heschel's home when he was killed that weekend. But I am fairly good friends with Susanna Heschel and Susanna never mentioned the name that her father and Dr. King were close friends. SM (01:32:51): Oh, okay. Could you talk a little bit about your WEIA radio days? A little bit about your WEIA radio days. JL (01:33:06): We are past 5:30. SM (01:33:08): Oh my god. We are. Okay. Could you have 10 more minutes? JL (01:33:14): 10 minutes, tops. SM (01:33:16): Okay then now I am not sure if I... Just briefly talk about how you became a radio disc jockey and what you did. JL (01:33:25): I was on, I had a show on BAI from 1968 to 1975. I basically got the show, those were my day as a focus singer and I had appeared on other shows in the radio station, and for whatever reason they liked me and began to offer me airtime substituting for people who were sick on vacation and what have you. I got my own show and basically it was a live show, two hours, and I would interview people on the air. For a while, the show was a place where Blacks could appear on the air without fear of being treated as a hostilely by an interviewer. The place where they come and express their views without any fear being condemned for those views. I would read the paper on the air, I would play music on the air. It was pretty much, what do I want to do? I really enjoyed the time I was on the air. I did Thursday evening show for a while and then I switched to a morning show, 7:00 to 9:00 in the morning and I really had a lot of fun when I was on the air. SM (01:34:45): Do you think that the boomer generation that has a problem with healing, that they will go to their graves like the Civil War generation, as a generation not truly healed from the tremendous divisions that tore apart the nation in their youth or young adults? JL (01:35:03): I have no idea. I have no idea. SM (01:35:04): The divisions between Black and white and? JL (01:35:06): And I have no idea. SM (01:35:09): Do you do not think see that? Well, I know that when Jan Scruggs wrote the book To a Heal Nation, he hoped that the Vietnam and Memorial would do that to help not only the veterans, but the generation itself. Have you been to the wall? JL (01:35:22): I have. I have. SM (01:35:26): What was your first reaction when you went to the wall and what was the impact? What were you thinking? Especially as a person who had been to Vietnam. JL (01:36:38): When I was in North Vietnam, I did not go to South Vietnam, but I was very moved by the wall itself and I was also very, very saddened by what a waste of lives. What the hell did those guys die for? They do not know. I do not know. And just one of all my classmates from college name is there, and it is like I was just saddened by the waste of the of lives. I do not know that we heal anything in this country as long as we do not take responsibility for what we have done and what we do. As a nation, we have not taken responsibility for the treatment of Native Americans. We have not taken responsibility for slavery. There are so many things that we have not taken that we have done that have been wrong and we have not taken responsibility for them. And until we do, I do not know that we can heal. SM (01:36:57): Yeah. When the historian’s kind of look at a period, it is usually about 50 to 75 years after an event happens. I know some of the best books now are being written on World War II and that is about 75 years. Well, 50 to 75 years after. What do you think historians and scholars will say about the boomer generation, the (19)60s, the movements, the period, the 65-year period between 46 and 2011, because boomers are turning 65 for the first time this year. What do you think they will say about this period and its impact on the nation? JL (01:37:40): Honestly, there is really no way I can respond to that. I mean, the changes that occur in the time period that you talk about are so extraordinary and so huge, and it is such a complex period and it's getting more complex. Honestly, do not know what they are going to say. I really, really do not. SM (01:38:17): And my last question is basically the last question on the last page is really about how important was music in the Black protest movement and the Black Power movements? I just got a list here of some of the people that I think were big during the period of the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s. But as a musician yourself, and I know I think you performed with Pete Seeger. JL (01:38:42): Oh yeah, I did, yeah. SM (01:38:43): I mean, as an entertainer, really a person, you are an artist, you're a photographer, you are an entertainer and you are a great scholar, you're a professor, a teacher, an intellect. But how important was music on shaping the period? JL (01:38:58): Well, for music was certainly very, very, it is extremely important. Certainly, this Civil Rights Movement I do not think would have had the stuff it did without the music because the music certainly brought people together. A typical mass meeting, you sang for an hour or so and just singing melded together, people who were very afraid about going out on demonstration the next day. And the singing together certainly helped to helped them mitigate their fears as well as in jail situations, people singing it. Certainly, being able to sing, "I ain't afraid of your jail because I want my freedom," certainly was an expression of the spirit. And certainly, the spirit was one of, " You can put me in jail, but you cannot break my spirit." And so, the music was certainly important in the South and Civil Rights Movement. The music was certainly important when you come north and you have the protest song movement with Bob Dylan and Phil Ochs and Tom Paxton and people like that who were writing topical songs and protest songs. And then you go to groups like Country Joe and The Fish, and Jefferson Airplane and that whole era of rock music where the music was very, very politically oriented. And once again, the music was an expression of a different set of values. And then you find James Brown, I am Black and I am proud, and all kinds of things happening in Black popular music where once again, the music was much more an expression of values rather than Baby I love you and that kind of thing. And so, the music carries the 1960s. It is both an expression of the (19)60s as well as a source of energy and strength for the people who were actively involved. SM (01:41:30): As we end, you have been a teacher in the classroom all these years and then you were side by side with many of the students of the (19)60s. How have the students changed? What the students in the (19)60s and (19)70s were the students of say the (19)90s and today? JL (01:41:49): I retired in 2003 and I am no longer teaching, but certainly it was a great difference between the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s whose many of whose parents had been actively involved as opposed to the students of the (19)90s and into the decades of the new century. The present-day students are really through no fault of their own, are not politically involved. They are not that aware of what has happened or what happened in the past. And there are also a generation that at least as I knew them, resented being given responsibility and being held accountable for their behavior in the classroom. And I certainly could not fault them for being who they were, they were simply products of their parents and their teachers. But it certainly made it difficult for me as a teacher from a very-very different generation. SM (01:43:18): Yes. Well, geez, thank you very much. I really appreciate this, and you will see the transcript and I got your ones, the first three questions that you sent me and I am going to need two pictures of you. JL (01:43:31): Okay. SM (01:43:34): So, if you can email two, it could be a picture of you when you were younger or in your heyday or it could be a picture. I certainly want one current and you can mail those to me through email and I will be corresponding with you as in the summer because I am transcribing starting in end of March for about eight, nine months of hibernation of transcription. So, you will see your interview. JL (01:43:58): Okay. All right. Sounds good. SM (01:43:58): And I will tell you, it is an honor to talk to you. JL (01:44:00): Well thank you very-very much. Thank you very-very much. SM (01:44:03): And your students were so lucky to have you in the classroom. My goodness. JL (01:44:05): Well, thank you. I certainly enjoyed my years in the classroom. I did. SM (01:44:11): Well, you have a great day and thanks again. JL (01:44:13): You are very-very welcome and the same to you. SM (01:44:15): Yep. Bye. JL (01:44:15): Bye-Bye. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Julius Lester Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lester, Julius ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Musicians; Political activists--United States; Lester, Julius--Interviews Description An account of the resource Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, educator, activist, and musician. His work primarily dealt with African-American culture, history, and folklore. Lester received a Bachelor's degree in English from Fisk University. Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, photographer, educator, activist, and musician. Lester was raised in the South and Midwest and received his undergraduate degree in English from Fisk University in 1960. In 1961 he joined SNCC and became their photographer documenting events like Freedom Summer in 1964, the Civil Rights Movement, and the U.S. atrocities in Vietnam during a trip to the country with other members of SNCC. His photography is well documented at the Smithsonian Institution and is part of a permanent collection at Howard University. After teaching for two years at the New School for Social Research, he joined the faculty of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst in 1971 where he taught in the Afro-American Studies Department and the Judaic and Near Eastern Studies Department. Since 1968, Lester published 25 books of fiction, non-fiction, children's books, and poetry. His writings brought him much fame with numerous awards for both adult and children's books. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.78a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.78b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 213:05 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dbaf2684ec934f5be6842b2019fee2ed.mp3 902423bb728d042151970b7f16547da2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12 March 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Erdem Ilter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jumaa Barany Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 114:32 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio audio Biographical Text Jumaa was born in Iraqi Kurdistan in the village of Ekmala Khabur near Duhok and came to the United States in 1997. He has a Associate degree from SUNY Broome. Growing up, he witnessed the harsh rule and treatment of Saddam Hussein and his military towards his own family and people, which lead to his brother’s and father’s death. Jumaa and his wife currently live in the Binghamton area with their children. Keywords Kurdish; Kurdistan; Iraq; Turkey; Iran; Kuwait; United States; Broome; Anfal; Intifiza; Conflict; Iraq War; Saddam; Family; Duhok; Mardin; Peshmarga; Ebril; Education Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Jumaa Barany Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 12 March 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) O:03 EI: Begin with your name, Jumaa Barani. 0:06 JB: Yes, my name is Jumaa Barani. 0:09 EI: Birthplace? 0:10 JB: April 10, 1969. 0:13 EI: Place? 0:17 JB: Kurdistan, Iraq and Duhok. My village is Ekmala Khabur. 0:22 EI: Ekmala Khabur. Okay, you said 1969. 0:26 JB: 1969. 0:27 EI: 1969, okay, your ethnicity is Kurd, you are Kurdish and Muslim Sunni. 0:38 JB: Yeah. 0:39 EI: Okay, you are married? 0:41 JB: Yeah, I am married. 0:42 EI: How many child? 0:43 JB: Four kids. 0:45 EI: Are they all boys or girls? 0:47 JB: All boys, four boys. The oldest one, he is eighteen, following him is six, the other one is four, the other one is three. 01:01 EI: Okay. What is your education? 01:07 JB: High school, two years college. 01:13 EI: Where did you go to college in Kurdistan or? 01:15 JB: No, here in Broome County. 0:18 EI: Okay. Perfect, your native language is Kurdish. Do you know Arabic? 01:22 JB: I speak Arabic too. 01:24 EI: Okay, perfect. You got your education in Arabic, right? 01:29 JB: Yes. 01:29 EI: Okay. Number of years in the US? 01:34 JB: Since 1997. 01:38 EI: 1997, okay, okay. I think after the NGO problem, right? 01:46 JB: Yeah. 01:46 EI: Okay, these are all technical questions now start with childhood. What do you remember in, in 1969; I mean 1970s when you were- maybe in (19)75, you were six years old, you will remember that time I think, what you remember? 02:08 JB: My birthday is in 1969 after four years, five years I think I still remember something because that time was our region was controlled by Kurdish Peshmerga, we call them, so we were fighting with the, I mean Kurdish were fighting with the Iraqi government but that time I remember so- 02:33 EI: Your village was controlled by Peshmerga, right? 02:36 JB: Whole region- 02:38 EI: All region? 02:39 JB: Most of Kurdistan. 02:40 EI: Okay. 02:40 JB: Most of Kurdistan, only some cities left like Kirkuk and Erbil and Duhok, Duhok sometimes coming and going to- but other all villages from Turkey all to Iran were under Peshmerga’s control. 19- I still remember 1974 my family they moved from the village because of Iraqi’s air force, you know they attacked the villages, any village they find attack them, they kill people like that, so we moved from the village to next valley, it was a deep valley, we stayed there until wintertime came. So, wintertime came we moved back to the village. Now became 1975, in 1975 there was an agreement between Saddam and Iran and under Americans way so in Algeria they made the agreement, they tried to Iran not to support Kurdish people anymore, and they give Saddam by that, they gave, because they had problem with the border in Shatt al-Arab, So they gave them part of Shatt- al-Arab to Iran and Iran stopped the support of the Kurdish. Of course, American helped Iran at that time too because there was Shah in power. In 1975 we came back there was no Peshmerga because they did not support them under, they did not fight anymore- 04:33 EI: So, Peshmerga started to lose its control over there? 04:37 JB: They lost, yeah, they lost control. 04:39 EI: After 1975. 04:41 JB: They tried because that time Mullah Mustafa (Barzani)- he knew Iraqi regime going to kill, like what happened now Halabja, so he stopped the fighting and he went to Iran and in 1975 when that thing happened all Peshmerga- they went back home and some of them the Iraqi regime they took him from Kurdistan to Junub way, to the south of Iraq in the desert or something- 05:12 EI: So, that time, what was your father’s job? 05:16 JB: My father- he was just a farmer, just taking care of the kids because most of Kurdistan people they were working in the farm, agricultural stuff like- 05:25 EI: Were there any investment or factory or something? 05:28 JB: No. 05:28 EI: That is normal. So, you were living in a farming area? 05:35 JB: Yes. 05:35 EI: What were you doing, I mean did you help your family? 05:40 JB: I was a kid you know that time. 05:42 EI: Yeah. 05:42 JB: I just remember that- 05:44 EI: Not the whole politic or government thing, your childhood I mean- JB: That is what I am trying to now go to my childhood because that once the war I still remember the aero planes coming and stuff like that. But after 1975, everything stopped, the fighting. So, the government they brought school to our village, there is the first school opening in my village in 1975. 06:12 EI: Okay. 06:12 JB: So, my generation we were kids, because that time I was five, six years old, so I remember the first school coming, we everybody go register for school. So, the first school started I was in there. 06:29 EI: Okay. So, you are the first student- 06:31 JB: In the school. I mean with my friends. 06:35 EI: Yeah. 06:35 JB: And we studied in the school, no, no, my father everybody like I said is agriculture stuff, his job you know he is a farmer, so we tried to help my father, but school was going until 1980, I finished (19)81- I finished my primary school. 06:57 EI: Okay. So how was it? I mean do you remember anything in school. What were you doing, how was the education? 07:03 JB: The education was Arabic, very hard for me to, I mean one kids- 07:09 EI: When you started school did you know any Arabic? 07:11 JB: No. 07:11 EI: No? 07:12 JB: None of the people in the region they spoke Arabic. So, but when they brought school in there, they brought some teachers they spoke Arabic and the teachers only Arabic no Kurdish education at all in my village. 07:27 EI: Okay. 07:27 JB: So, we started from Arabic from the beginning and very difficult you know it is a different language, even we did not know what they are talking about- 07:34 EI: I had the same- 07:36 JB: Yeah. So, we have been in the situation but year by year we learn a little bit Arabic with study. I mean I remember the first day when I went to school, he put some letter in the book give it to me, even touch I went out I saw my friend everybody is busy with try to make homework, I said what is this, they said this is homework for school, said what is this; letter Arabic you have to learn. I learnt back, home my cousin everybody was just helping to make just like Aleef in the alphabetical. So that was just childhood, with the other we just played together you know. 08:17 EI: Were there any Arabs in your village? 08:18 JB: No, no Arabs in Kurdistan at all. Only some in the city. 08:22 EI: Okay. All of them were Kurds in your village. 08:26 JB: All of them Kurds, pure Kurds. 08:27 EI: And were there any Kurdish teacher or? 08:29 JB: There was Kurdish teacher, but the Kurdish teachers’ education was in Arabic, so they did not teach us in Kurdish, only in Arabic. 08:37 EI: I mean did you have any problem when you spoke Kurdish or something in school? 08:43 JB: No, I did not have any problem but is because education is Arabic, so you had to learn Arabic, with the other way you cannot answer the question in Kurdish. When teachers ask you, they were asking in Arabic. So that was- we were about how many, three classes almost four. 09:02 EI: For one class how many students were there? 09:06 JB: I remember first time when we started the school, we did not have chairs; we did not have a table, no. Because the wall is concrete, the roof is from mud. So, when the rain is coming, it was dripping and water was coming down, everybody, even we did not have any heat inside. So, we everybody was cold and shaking, freezing. 09:29 EI: the physical conditions were bad. 09:32 JB: We brought some containers; everybody brought something to sit on it just like this and no chair no table no nothing. First year, and then after that became better because they sent us some what they call, seats you can sit down on it, so three of us just like this, like military you cannot even move because teacher will beat you, if you are talking- 09:52 EI: How was his attitude, was so disciplinary or I mean, you were not relaxed student or comfortable- 10:02 JB: In the school? 10:03 EI: Yeah. 10:03 JB: No, we scared of the teacher because teacher. We are not American teachers not beating not hitting the kids. But back then, if you move, he would beat you, if you did not your homework, it would be a hard time. So, we were scared in the school from teacher more than scared from your parents. 10:25 EI: Yeah. 10:25 JB: Teachers, they were like someone really mean you know, so we scared a lot from teachers, and they cannot sit down even kids they want sometime go to bathroom we scare to ask I am going to go to bathroom. I have my friend beside me he peed himself many times because I mean he scared of the teacher so everybody was scared from the teacher. But I mean summertime we just play you know like tradition games and stuff like that, outside kids coming and going. It was very safe you know nobody bothering each other just, it was a good life, I missed that. 11:05 EI: I mean you enjoyed your childhood that time- 11:09 JB: And until 19- six years later because we had no- 11:16 EI: During that time, that period I mean did your family talk about politics? 11:24 JB: It is very dangerous if you even talk about politics, you are done, you cannot even talk. If sometimes I would tell you that one, by then when the war had stopped, now once a while, every maybe month, whatever they wanted, the Iraqi force like military coming to check your village to control whole, I mean surround the village, they would check everything in your house or farm or anything. If they see anything belongs just like war before, like bullet or gun something they take the whole village to somewhere you did not ever know. I remember once me and my father we were trying to get out from the village, we had a farm, so my father said okay, let us go to you know take care of the farm, it was summertime. So, one guy came when we got out from there, we saw one guy coming he is from next village, he said where you are going, and I said we go to our farm. He said if you listen to me, just come back because there is, the whole area is military is in there, is came from Baghdad, came from Mosul, came from Kirkuk somewhere. So, if you listen to me just do not go there, I am sure they going to bother you. So, my father said listen let us go back and we do not have go to farm today. So, we came back we went to other side of the farm, south side, so when the military was coming it was an early morning maybe about eight o’clock, we went back a different farm- 13:09 EI: Yeah, please finish and I will ask question. 13:12 JB: So, the military came surrounded the whole village and they took any male from their sixteen, seventeen and up. And then they checked you know the houses, the families, beds anything in the house they checked looking for the anything belongs to the war before. They caught I do not know how many people was, but anybody in the village they took them away from the village, we had a little bit of some hill behind the village, it used to be straight grass in there, so grass sometime comes like needles stuff like that I do not know what they call it, they took them out about hundred degrees, more than hundred degrees, the weather in there very hot, they took them out, they share stuff like that and take shoes, okay you going to take a walk through this whole wild grass, it is very hard and hot and then tell them sit down and put your head on the stones there, it is very hot, you can put your head on the stone like this until I tell if you move you will die. 14:24 EI: Were they teenager or the whole village male? JB: I said from maybe, it would tell you if he would see you are a little tall or do not go by birthday or something just how they want, say sixteen, seventeen, fourteen, fifteen just take them all. 14:44 EI: Physical suppression and psychological. 14:46 JB: Yeah. Just take them and do whatever you want. So, they took those people and beat some of them until they passed away, they did not come back just like normal, they beat them really bad for no reason. So, every once a while, a month or two months, three months, jaish [army] was coming, military, was coming to check something whatever they wanted to check it. And then they make problem for people. 15:14 EI: Okay, every three months for guns for food, or? 15:17 JB: For gun, anything belong like bullet stuff like that, or you have we call big knife like khenjer,[dagger] something like that, and I remember one guy he was, they had a small shop because when was Peshmerga was there we had like kind business [trade] coming from between Turkey and Kurdistan and from Syria and Kurdistan, people they go and buy stuff. He had some money belonged to Iran that time. And when the- He was blind, he could not see anymore. When he was born, he was disabled so when the jaish was coming, the military coming, checked his rural shop, they found some money belonged to Iran, Iran’s currency and then he was blind they did not tell him nothing, but they took his brother, when one day he came back he even could not talk anymore. They beat him- 16:16 EI: His brother, right? 16:18 JB: Yes, his brother, because his brother- 16:22 EI: Tortured him. 16:24 JB: I mean that was how they did for no reason because they did do nothing just did not do nothing, just coming from somewhere and because your Kurd, they just beat them. 16:34 EI: They did not need any reason to torture? 16:36 JB: No, the head of them they gave him orders just do whatever you want. 16:44 EI: So, what was the image of the soldier for you when you were a child, for example one day they say that soldiers are coming to village, I mean were they something for you or no it was normal. 16:59 JB: No it was not normal because, I was about five or six years old I mean seven years old, ten years old but I know when they are coming, takes my father, my cousin, my neighbor, my anybody in the village, and then they kill them, they beat them, they bother them, they take them away, put in jail somewhere because they can do anything they want and none of them is good for us, anything is coming, coming for some reason and then you know take the people. 17:30 EI: How was their attitude towards child or women or elderlies, like the soldiers, did you have any like interaction with them, speak with them, I mean even you were child? 17:49 JB: Not really, I mean nothing happened to me, but they took my cousin, my father, my uncle that was too much for you because psychologically is bothering you, I mean affect you. But for me I was seven, fourteen years old until I finished from high school, I mean primary school and then until (19)80, from (19)80 because (19)80 was the Iraq – Iran War- started. So- 18:19 EI: You were ten years old- 18:21 JB: I was eleven years old and then the next year I had to go to high school because high school we did not have it in the village, we had to go to city somewhere. When I went to city very close- 18:34 EI: In Duhok right? 18:36 JB: There was another small town closer to our village, so I did not have to go Duhok- I could go to Duhok or somewhere but they had a town, small town there they had high school- 18:47 EI: What it is called? 18:52 JB: Mangesh, they called Mangesh. 18:58 EI: Okay. You are eleven- 19:00 JB: I was eleven and then when age be twelve so you going to come from primary school to high school. High school is far from our village almost two hours and a half if you walk from there because by then we did not have transportation like a car or something or school bus something we never knew. So, we had to walk or- And then the war started between Iraq and Iran. Everybody is scared because Iran coming to attack air force, airplane was coming, the jet air so it was coming to bombing our city our place but because we were Kurds it was not coming so many times to our area, go to Arab area. Because they had problem with Arabs. And I moved from my village to next town for high school, that was hard because then you cannot come back every day because military, they do not let you go coming and going from city to, because it is political start, now Peshmerga started to become like- 20:19 EI: Fight again? 20:21 JB: It was kind of revolution just like, they were fighting for freedom you know. So started again and the area become dangerous you cannot get out from city or town at night tie because my school started from eight until one or two o’clock, and then you had to walk so there is a lot of military, they could kill you easily just nobody say they killed. 20:44 EI: Where were you staying at that time? 20:46 JB: I was staying in a small town now because I had to go high school. 20:52 EI: I mean with your relative, or- 20:56 JB: No, I had to rent my just small room in there and stay there by myself. We were friends, few friends like roommates. 21:07 EI: Okay. Yeah, how was the condition for the high school, I mean you are more conscious, you are teenager maybe you feel the politics in school, so how was the conditions? 21:18 JB: Now government is there, and we are Kurds and then we cannot even open your mouth about politics, if they know you belong political, or your father or somebody from your family is Peshmerga or in politics they can catch you they can kick you out of school, do whatever they want to you because they could not catch them but they could catch you, because they relate to you like brother, father cousin or whatever. So these things happened day by day, month by month became worse because Peshmerga now grew bigger I mean more active and government busy with the other side with the war of Iran, and economic is go down, now start food sometimes, no heat I remember I was there two or three years later we were sitting in the house and then hundred what they call, outside snowing under zero we did not have a heat, no heat, no electric at all, so sometimes you go to get some kerosene or whatever for your heat, sometimes not. And 1984 they make red line; anybody from here to the other side in Kurdistan we cannot come to the city or you going to move your house from the village to the city somewhere. 22:52 EI: Okay, what was the line between Duhok and like another Arabic city or within Kurdish cities? 22:59 JB: No, they divided Kurdistan now because Kurdistan- 23:02 EI: For example, from Duhok to Sulaimaniya or- 23:04 JB: Say from Duhok to Zakho. 23:07 EI: Okay. 23:08 JB: From to Duhok to Mangesh, from Mangesh to Ammadiya. 23:13 EI: Okay. 23:14 JB: Okay, all this they had street in here like road, they had a point in here what they call it; base of military here. All the belonged road, what they call it I do not know, base or, we call it rabiya. So, they put military in there If somebody comes from here village to, they can shoot them, they can take them to jail, kill them or whatever, so you had a red line you cannot go anymore. That become big problem for us because I am in school how can I go back and come. 23:52 EI: To your family- 23:54 JB: Yeah, I stayed there, it was in 1987 until 1987 I was in high school. Sometimes you cannot see your family for months and then no word no nothing and then no food even because in Iraq they did not have food in the market, so food coming from the government, and government gave it to local people. It is a shop; they have a contract okay I am going to give you food and you can give it to people. So, when they give food, bring this food people to the shop they know how many people they have in the city, they bring just for this people. The other people in the other side of red line, no food for them, so they were using agriculture stuff like that for food and sometimes they bring it from illegal way from Turkish border or Iranian border, so you need to survive anyway. 25:03 EI: Okay. 25:04 JB: So, there is now problem for I cannot go back and then I have no work and I have to go back get money or food or dry food, stuff like that from my family for myself. 25:17 EI: Did they send you money or something? 25:20 JB: Who, my family? 25:21 EI: Yeah, when you were there? 25:22 JB: Because we knew some of those people in redline whatever because those people most of them were from the area, Kurdish people but they give money and gun, do not let the other people coming, so it is worse than Arabs now because they knew each other, we call them Jash to those people I do not know what they call them [mercenaries]. Those people were Kurd and government gave them money, and gun and then fight against their brothers, Kurdish brothers. 25:56 EI: They are called Jash? 25:57 JB: Jash. 25:58 EI: Yeah, okay. 25:58 JB: Yeah, because now we cannot go back because I know some of these people, they let me go sometimes secretly, nobody knows, so I go back to my family stay with them for a couple of days and come back to school. High school is very hard. Finally in 1987 because my father he refused to go to join military fighting Iran for no reason, he said I am not going to go, I am going to take care of my kids, I am not going to military, and then governments coming saying if you have relative who are not going to military service, I will kick you out from school. Now from high school I cannot go to school anymore. I came home was summertime until 1988 and worse stopped between Iraq and Iran and 1988, February 3rd they started Anfal. 27:13 EI: Okay, just a second, when did you leave the school, 1985? 27:17 JB: 1987. 27:18 EI: 1987 you left high school? 27:22 JB: I left high school because they kicked me out because of my father he did not go to military service. If I go back, they would put me in jail and they kill me. 27:33 EI: Okay. 27:34 JB: So, I went back to my family stayed there until next summer. But before next summer January 23rd, they started Anfal, so they started February 23rd (19)88 in, they make steps start from Iranian’s border and all way came to the Syrian border because Turkey belongs our border but started from Syria, so almost Syria very close to the corner of border Syrian and Iraq, from Zakho, exactly from Zakho. So, we were scared but no choice what you going to do. 28:21 EI: Military operation, right? 28:22 JB: Military operation started, and they used chemicals. 28:25 EI: What was the aim I mean against the normal civilian people? 28:29 JB: Against who is besides, who is out of this redline. 28:37 EI: Okay. 28:37 JB: Civilians, birds, animals- people anything in this area is going to be destroyed because Anfal in Quran was said there was a fight between Kuffar and Muslims. Muslims they control it, when they control this thing, they cut some like business stuff from them, when they come back, they divide among them look like they fight each other and the prophet Muhammed told them this, if you believe your God, believe your prophet listen we will see in the Quran. So, Quran say okay divide these things you got it from the war divide it between yourself, I mean everybody else. So, they put this name Anfal operation they kill other people not like whatever happening in Islam. This is something is worse than- 29:30 EI: Yes, Kurds are Muslim. 29:31 JB: Yeah, Kurds Muslim and this innocent people, there are kids in them, animals there, and they destroyed even what they call spring of water, anything. Anything just destroyed in the whole Kurdistan. So, they started 23rd February, I remember they called the area Sargalu Bingalu is very close to the Iranian border and started then came back. I believe it took three weeks because there was Peshmerga in there, they were fighting they could not do easily. And they came back to the second operation I am not sure was Germian or the name of it but the worst one was in Kirkuk area. Kirkuk because Iraq they started move Kurdish people from Kirkuk to different areas to Kurdish area or the Arab area and they moved Arabs from south to Kirkuk because Kirkuk is the most problem between Iraq and Kurdistan because see of oil in there. So, when they move the Kurdish, they put Arab in there now majority is Arab that means Kirkuk is Arab. They started in, the operation in Kirkuk is about one hundred fifty thousand people just killed; kids, male, female, animal anything in the area they killed them destroyed the whole region. 31:10 EI: in 1988, right? 31:11 JB: In 1988 they call it Germian region. They finished from there they came to Erbil. Erbil is now capital city of Kurdistan. They started this area is because of mountain and Peshmerga and people they fight it took about two months, two months or three months until finished the area. Now become Badinan area, they call Behdinan as Muhafadh Duhok, Duhok region until Akre they call it Behdinan. In 1988 August 8th Iraq and Iran stopped fighting anymore because of United Nations no more fight. 32:06 EI: Okay, just a second, what was the Kurdish position towards that war? I mean the Kurdish were neutral or side of Iran? 32:15 JB: No, not side of Iran, just tried to get freedom from Iraq just like Peshmerga. Because we were fighting for freedom, we were not fighting because of Iran or Turkey or any country. Because they controlled our land, they divided Kurdistan between Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Syria during the first war now we fight since that time fighting for freedom or at least our land. Now because the war stopped, they brought the whole troops whatever they were fighting with Iran they brought this military from there all way to Behdinan, so when they brought it to Behdinan, they started to some street [road- high ways]in there if they control all these street because all way from Zakho to almost to the Iran belong to Turkish border, they control all this area you cannot move, you cannot go nowhere because military is there or behind you it is government you know is the big cities there which there is government. So, they surround in about starting from 8, 1988 that the war stopped between Iraq and Iran and the 25th of August they started Anfal sixth step they call it Behdinan step or whatever so start- 34:06 EI: So, it was organized- 34:08 JB: Very organized, I mean they had a plan; they just not came to- 34:10 EI: I mean they did not just bomb. 34:15 JB: No, it is kind of first from 8th they even did not shoot a gun they just came brought tanks, helicopter, military weapons anything bomb just tried to control streets first, they did not say nothing to nobody, just control it first from August 8th to August 25th just brought their military and weapon and the operation was started 25th. So, the operation was started 25th, now I was in there in my village, and we had to escape or find some place, there is no safe place, the only safe place is to get out from Iraq. The nearest. So, the country nearest for us is Turkey, otherwise we cannot go to Syria because all government is there, Saddam, Iran is very far, we cannot get it, now you have your only choice is Turkey. So, Turkey is about maybe if you walk three days you get to the border. It is too long but you have to at least try it. So, we tried to on 25th to get out from there with the family and the first night 26th we got that street I talked about that there is military in there and there was locked you cannot go nowhere. 35:52 EI: The year is 1988? 35:54 JB: Yeah, 1988, so in 1988 when we got the border I mean to the street, no way you can get out from there or go under the street somewhere, my family we came back again to some a little bit far from the, because it was dark time, in the morning the military will see you and they would kill all the families. And not just my family, million people are around, I mean people of all villages moved, just region all region. 36:30 EI: Okay. 36:30 JB: So, we came back again and we decided to go somewhere to at least we are familiar with you know to hide in there, maybe this pressure of coming and going, come back give some forgiveness or whatever they call it, we can be survived but night time, next night, so it is 27th, became 27th we got like saw a village I see them, what they call kind of lights bombing and lights shining night time, makes whole region light just like day time. So is military coming very close to us. I decided to go, I mean not stay with the kids because we cannot, that is a bout thousand people around you cannot be with those kids. In my head I say maybe those people that not going to bother kids or female I knew because I was there in the city, I know how bad the government. So, I talked to my mom, my father he was with my brother behind did not get there yet, so I told them I am not going to stay here because if they catch us, they can kill us. So, I decided I told my cousin everybody, nobody came with me. Only me and two friends, I told my mom I am going. So, I left the kids with my mom, next to the village in there and then I went back tried to border again. So, when I got there was a nighttime. 38:18 EI: You came back to Duhok right? 38:21 JB: From Duhok, the region is Duhok, but we are far from Duhok, I came back to the village, my village. 38:29 EI: Why? What was your aim? You back to your village? 38:33 JB: Yeah, we tried because we cannot get to the border, Turkish border. 38:37 EI: Ah, you could not go there, and you came back? 38:39 JB: I came back yeah. 38:40 EI: Okay. 38:40 JB: So- 38:41 EI: Why could not go there, because it was surrounded? 38:43 JB: Surrounded by military, so we came back to our region. Our region still military did not move in yet. So, they had a plan, they are far from us, they are in the street, but our village is far from them a little bit between two highways. So, they did not come yet. So, nighttime I saw they were coming because they were bombing, light of bombing, so I told my mom I am not coming, I am not going to stay in here military catch me in here they kill me, so I am going to hide somewhere, or I am going to try to escape to Turkey. It is not easy you know you leave your kids and their father, mother, brother so I went back with two friends. 39:22 EI: Did you marry at that time? 39:23 JB: No, I was nineteen years old. 39:25 EI: Okay. 39:27 JB: I decided to go back to find way to get out from Kurdistan to Turkey. So, when I went back, I told my mom my father and my brother, the youngest brother was sixteen years old, maybe I see them in my way when I come back on my way, so unfortunately, I did not meet them, and I did not know where there were. So, me and my friends we went to the way we tried to escape. One of my friends he said I cannot cross the river, because there is a river in there you had to swim or walk through, so he scared and said I am not coming, and my other friend, his brother we saw him, met him said oh my brother is not coming with you, we go to find somewhere else. So now I and my other friend scared cross the river. We came back we decided to come back to the village another village very close to the river until morning maybe we scared nighttime to go through the water, so I told him okay, we going to stay here but this military is coming, so we are dying anyway. I so his, one transportation is coming, a tractor we used it in my country for agricultural stuff. We saw his cousin in there, so okay, let us go by tractor we going to cross the river to the other side and try to get cross to the street, the military there until nighttime and nighttime we try to escape to Turkey. But Turkey is still two days until you get there. So, me and him and his family went to the mountain we stayed in there, I saw one group of Peshmerga is coming. Those people they tried to escape two. And I know that those people they are familiar with the area because they know how to get cross the border of Turkey. I told them you know what, let us go with these people because we do not know where we are going. I know there is Turkey is right there, but I do not know how to get out. So, he said okay, his cousin okay if you stay with me help me with my kid we going to everybody going to escape tonight under street to the border, he said I am going to stay with my cousin. Now I am by myself, but I saw them like two friends from my village is with the group with Peshmerga, I was so happy you know when I saw somebody at least I know them. So, we get to the one we call them valley between two mountains, there is thousands of people in there, I mean kids, families, everybody is there. They try to stay in there until dark time, maybe they try to escape the highway and then get to the other side of the highway is very close to Turkey border. Now it was kind of dark next day it is about maybe, it did not become dark yet, evening just like maybe 7 o’clock. And then government they see, they know there is people in the valley, and they bombed it, I do not know how many bombs dropping the valley. So, everybody ran away go to because you cannot away nobody. I saw this group of Peshmerga we can escape a little bit. We moved in a different direction and then we had some people they knew this area, familiar with. So, the guy he said okay, I know how to escape now, I do not know if they were military or not, I know there is a kind of tunnel under the highway which the water comes through it is like a bridge. We tried to go there, so it is too much cross stuff in there, it was about twelve o’clock at night to get there. So, we went to the bridge, there is military on the highway, and tank they loaded with the trail, they still moving, I mean there is a lot of militaries in there. So, we tried to decide; fight because we had a gun at that time, we going to fight or die whatever because you have no choice. So, we tried to escape under the bridge, nobody sees us, I do not know. It was about maybe one hundred people. Just one by one, we escape and there was water we go through the water until here. So, we escaped to the other side of the street, highway until we got maybe five miles farther from the highway. We stopped by there. There was people, they moved there before because summer time is hot, some people they move from village to there, they stay there for summer and so we saw all these days, no food, no nothing we do not eat nothing so very tired we could not walk anymore. So, we knew now military is behind us. We going to move forward to Turkey, so there is no military in there yet. Me and couple my friends we walked through the, used to be family in there, they left some dry rice and some flour you know food. We tried to make some food for us, we were happy to see these things there with the cooking oil. So, we tried to make some food. I think we cooked enough just we did not eat yet almost morning now; there we see military comes to very close to us to the mountain. So, we had no choice we had to walk. So, I got some of that food we cooked, he gets some and we eat and walking. We walked until I do not know almost evening; from morning until evening until we got to Turkish border. There is a lot of people in there because some of them were on the other side of the street, it was easy for them, so they were good and had no problem but people between the two streets could go nowhere. So I stayed, I went to Turkey I saw some of my family was there, I mean relative to us I stayed with them about fifteen, I am not sure how many days we stayed on the border, and then Turkish they tried to move us from the border at least to inside Turkey because you know journalist and people and the UN everybody knows what happened on the border, million people coming to the borders and there was kind of agreement between those people in the, I mean Turkish military and in the point on the border, they tried to you know let us go back to Iraq so they catch us. I mean I do not know they might pay them I do not know what happened, kind of agreement. But we told them they going to kill us, so anybody try to kind those stupid agreement, we do not care we going to fight we going to kill you or Turkey or who is going to kill us, we going to fight them. Because we did not have a choice. So, I remember that time Ahmed Turk he was what they call it, I do not know what they call- 47:17 EI: Parliamentarian? 47:17 JB: He was not a Parliamentarian at that time, yeah but now he is a parliamentarian. 47:22 EI: Okay. 47:22 JB: He did love for us, and he gave name of Kurdish people, what happened, to the journalists and media and they knew we are now where they are and coming. 47:33 EI: Helped right? 47:34 JB: He helped a lot. So now Turkey- they want to move us from there, so they moved group by group. They brought I do not know it was car’s structure or dump trucks whatever, they brought it to there because it is dirt road you cannot bring bus or something in there. So, they moved us from there all way to Slopey. And some of them they moved them to Mardin, Some of them to Diyarbakir, some of them to Moosh. So, they made camps in there, so I was one they moved me to Slopey very close to border of Iraq. So, we saw Zakho and I do not know that time truck was coming and going. It was sad you know, because they put us between I do not know what they called a building, they make building around with the, it is not camp yet it just like I think for those people they are going to Hajj, they bring them there and take them until they make paper stuff and move them to the- So they put them in the camp, made camp in there. The food was not enough, I mean a family they had six person they gave them two breads [somon], they gave them two, so how is enough for two people and then they put some bulgur in a big barrel in the military’s car and they give you some soup, mean people was too hungry they cannot get full. And they decided they move us from Slopey now to Mardin, so when they moved us, it was almost wintertime, it was raining, no transportation them in the trailer in there and they moved us to Mardin, when we got Mardin it was mud, rain but the only thing is good in there they had a lot of food in there, they gave every food not like Slopey. Because in Slopey they tried to you know did not take care of us, not help us just make people okay I do not want to die, and I want to go back to my country. 49:48 EI: Okay. I mean the treatment was not good. 49:49 JB: Yeah. 49:50 EI: So, could you interact with local people? 49:53 JB: No, local people they cannot because my uncle of my father’s side, he was imam for one of the villages next to Slopey, the called Girkey something like that but he tried to at least give me some food, they said no, even military can, nobody can get around. 50:13 EI: Turkish military, right? 50:14 JB: Turkish military yeah. They put in the camp rounded with jandarma [gendarme]. 50:16 EI: Okay. 50:16 JB: Now they moved us to Mardin, in Mardin they gave us you know just a little tent and some, the only thing we had a lot is lentil soup. We ate a lot of lentil soup, [Adas, what they called, Neask]. So that is one food, and then potatoes, sometimes they would bring rice and, but the good thing they had a good bread in there, I mean Turkish bread tastes good too. We stayed in there about one year and then I do not know there was agreement between Iraq’s government and. 51:01 EI: How was the life other than that, I mean where were you staying in village or in camp? 51:05 JB: No camp they just gave us tent, we had tent. 51:09 EI: How many people lived in that tent? 51:11 JB: Well, it depends, some of them ten people in just about one tent. 51:17 EI: Did you share it with your family. 51:18 JB: Yeah, I shared with my cousin, he has a family, we got two of them; small one just like an umbrella is coming down. It is for one person for picnic something like that not for you live in there in Mardin. Because Mardin is very cold in wintertime and then some air coming, blowing wind coming they bring the electric what they called wire or electric pill coming down. They kind moving and then break the tent. It was very- 51:55 EI: Yeah, just tents. 51:56 JB: But you had to take care of yourself, it does not matter where you are. So, it was hard, and one I had friend you know visit, playing keep busy until I do not know when they going to get out from this. And one day people- 52:19 EI: What about shower, could you- 52:22 JB: Shower you have your own tent, and this two, I mean each side of the tent they had two places you get water from there by container or something bring home with your tent and then in there you can make your own place and take shower, in the tent- 52:42 EI: You sleep there- 52:43 JB: You sleep there too, you make a little place in there and then, I mean day by day or month after month become little bit better because people, they built kind of place from the mud to take shower in there, so- 53:05 EI: and the other interviews they said like airplane dropped food or something, did you? 53:11 JB: That is not happening yet. We still in (19)89. And then when I was there, there were two bakery they brought us food, one of them they put poison in there, put poison between the in the oven what they call it bread and they sent it to us. 53:39 EI: Who? 53:39 JB: Turkish, because Iraq gave them poison to these people owner for the bakery for make us the bread. It was about evening because they came morning or sometimes evening, each bread they had a number when they put bread in there the number is coming like 75 or umber of the oven. So everybody feels bad, you know people they vomiting, people get sick, now we had a speaker in the camp so if something you need, somebody needed like call or something, somebody going to talk in the speaker everybody hears it you know, so people coming and then go little clinic was in there for sick people and people vomiting just laid down in the ground and could not move anymore and get sick. So finally, they found out when they opened the bread they found a kind of green thing in the bread, it is about- now is problem because I saw, you eat, I eat, other eat, and nobody knows who is going to die. So, everybody says oh I ate and something psychology kills you because you say I eat the poison too so how- You going to die. So, everybody got scared and tired and they run to the hospital. About 12,000 in the camp. 55:18 EI: How many people, 12,000? 55:19 JB: 12,000, so say maybe that time they make bread for thousand people, or a thousand people had eaten, more than a thousand people they just were on the ground. So, they take them to the little hospital, the clinic, and then the people there vomiting but the good thing because they put the poison in the oven it was almost expired, and it was not affecting that much. So, it still had affect because it is a poison but not that much. I had my friends, so I was with him, he was doctor, he said you know, he showed me how to you know get syringe stuff like how to shoot people when I was in the clinic, it was local, it was our doctor not Turkish- 56:10 EI: The clinic was Turkish? 56:12 JB: No, he made his own clinic we had about four to five doctors from our country went to camp- 56:20 EI: Ah, okay, so the doctors were Kurds as well. 56:21 JB: Yeah, so but they gave sometimes- 56:25 EI: Was there many medicines or had support from Turkey? 56:29 JB: There was medicine, they had a clinic, had a clinic, they had own clinic you got to go in there but- 56:36 EI: You had alternative clinic as well. 56:37 JB: Yeah. So, you go to the doctor if you have a cold or something, you bring some pills from there or medicine after you get well, you do not need it. So, you gave it to our doctor so maybe he will give it to somebody else. He was just using like this some medicine from there. So, he told me okay thousand people they laid down in the, we kind have a kind next to the Turkish clinic is kind of hospital but nothing in there just to give you some medicine. So, there is thousand people coming just lay down, people vomiting, people screaming and then said you know what, the good, the clinic they gave us syringe and medicine we going to shoot people. They call anybody knows to shot or you know use syringe just please come help because just two or three doctors and some nurses- 57:38 EI: Not enough- 57:39 JB: That was not enough. So, I was one of them to shot maybe hundred people, but this shot is just something, I mean it is medicine. 57:50 EI: Psychologic? 57:51 JB: It is something to help, oh’ I got medicine, I am not going to die. So, it was helping because I saw one guy he brought his wife, most ladies scared more, so he brought his wife in there and then he did not eat yet but because psychology, you know because he did not eat yet, he fell down too. 58:12 EI: Okay. 58:12 JB: So that was terrible, then they took some people to the hospital in Mardin, so but because the government they were to be secret nobody knows what happened in there, they did not let us talk to media, actually media was not allowed to come inside. They did not talk to media too. It was bad, I think few of them died, killed but the other became better but still it is very hard to poison your body, so it affects but you know it is not dying yet. We stayed like that bad you know nobody can go nowhere, you cannot get out like get out sometimes just because I know one guy he is, what they call it, komiser [police chief in Turkish]. 59:00 EI: Komiser. 59:01 JB: Zabit Shurta- Police. So, I knew the guy he would let me sometime go to Mardin and Kızıl Tepe and those area can bring some food or whatever, but nobody had money because you are not working. And then they gave us money. So that is what in there. In 1995 until when it was it- 1990 Saddam went to Kuwait and intifada [revolt] happened but I came back before that because my family, they took my family, they killed my brother, they killed my father in Anfal when I moved from Kurdistan and I escaped, so they caught seventy-three people from my village, they caught the whole family but they killed all seventy-three male from age fourteen and up. My father, my brother, my four cousins, my other you know cousin side, everybody, from my village, the village usually were close to each other- 1:00:25 EI: How many brothers did you have; brothers and sisters? 1:00:29 JB: I had six sisters and we were four brothers but one of them was killed, and the others were too young, they were five years, six years all of them, so they did not kill those. They put those kids with the female, they were separate with the males, I mean ages fourteen and if you were tall, it did not matter what your age was, they did not go by age, so they took them away. They took them away; took the families you know kids and mothers and sisters to Erbil. Erbil is a flat area, is very hot summertime, because it was august. So, they put my family with other families; you know half million people was in there, maybe more than half. So, my father passed away and my brother, we had nobody to take care of the kids because in there and when they put the kids in there with the mother and sisters, no food- 1:01:34 EI: You did not know that they were killed right? 1:01:38 JB: No, when I got to Turkey, so now we tried for relative, or anybody knows; we knew what happened now. 1:01:46 EI: Could you interact, could you talk I mean- 1:01:48 JB: Yeah, I mean very secret, you know somebody told me I got news that they put your family in the area called Bahirke, is very close to Erbil, no it is part of Erbil. So, they them in there with no food, no shade no water no nothing just like you are in there and it is your problem. But the only thing we never forget those people from Erbil they helped a lot. They tried to get anything you can, water, milk and just do whatever you can do, just take from your pocket, from your home, from somewhere just give something to those people they might die until tomorrow. I mean they did a lot for those people. Trust me some people brought what they call; flat truck, put it on the back side and made some kind of cave put kids in there because it is hundred degrees and most kids died, and female and male, old people died and those people they brought food, some shades, some water and then until almost mosque after that government because the media now knows. There was some media talking about Anfal and what happened, so they opened you can go to the city one of your family like mother, nobodies’ father is there just mother or another sister maybe young she can go to city and those people they had relative gave them money and they brought some food. Day by day, they get better, you know people they go work outside. When before Saddam go to Kuwait, they had afu [pardon] forgiveness whatever, those people who wanted to come back to his family that we are not going to do nothing to them, just forgiven by Saddam; if Saddam says it is okay, it is okay that is it nobody can talk, or if say kill them, they will kill them, just his decision. So, I decided to come back to the family because she called my- by phone said we have nobody because your father and your brother, cousins we have nobody to help us I have these kids with me so if you know you can come, come back. I said okay I will come back because maybe nothing will happen to me because life if you not enjoying your life, you have lost your brother, cousins; nobody left so you did not know okay I did not do something for those kids if I would be survived. I am back to my family nothing; I mean they did not do nothing to me. Saddam, he went to Kuwait. When he went to Kuwait, he would be busy with Kuwait and United Nations and other coalition coming to bomb him and take him out. Now before that, they said who wants to go back to his city, we can take your family. I took my family from Erbil all the way to Duhok again. But there was a problem because of war no food in the market we can buy it and no place left because a lot of people moved to the city. I mean we cannot rent anymore. And you cannot build a house, they did not have money. I asked my one of- my our relative he is not very close to us I told him you know what if you have just a place I put my kids, I mean my family here. He said okay, I have three bedrooms, I will keep two bedrooms for myself and you can bring your family in there, that is all I can do for you. So, it was a small bedroom just like this room. How many; six sisters in there, the five sisters because my other sister she was married so she went to her family but four sisters, three brothers, my mother in one bedroom. And we shared the kitchen with the other family, so sometimes cooking. I worked for my family, any kind of work, just get some money to be survived. I worked hard. I remember Saddam he was building; Gare is a big mountain in Kurdistan close to Duhok, he was building his mansion on the top of it, so I knew how to do electric for house stuff like that. I found one guy he was working in there. I told him you know what, I need to work I have my family. We have no money. He said okay, I will give you a chance. He gave a job in his contract. So, when I was in there, he gave me fifteen dinars a day. So, fifteen dinar a day that time was too much. None of people, I a lot of people had fifteen dinars. Workers who worked you know in my country from dark in the morning until dark in the evening working for five dinars or seven dinars. I was making fifteen dinars a day. So, I was so happy, it helped me a lot. And then just about two, three months I got some money to help buy stuff, cloth whatever I needed for my family. I was so happy you know helping my family. Then Saddam and his party Baath said okay those people who came from Turkey, they cannot work in that area, you are not allowed because you were khawana [treacherous] they said you cannot work in this area. So, they did not let me go there anymore. Now he started with Kuwait. He went to Kuwait and then the coalition kicked him out. They started a war now what they call intifada happened. We cleared from Arab people, from Kirkuk, Sulaimania all way to Zakho. No more Arab they kicked them out and everybody- 1:07:58 EI: Kurds? 1:07:58 JB: Kurds. 1:08:00 EI: I mean the uprising? 1:08:01 JB: Yeah, uprising. So that is happened too now. 1:08:08 EI: How was the uprising? What was happening? Were you in street, were you fighting? 1:08:12 JB: For myself, I had my friend because I was with the Peshmerga, I hoped something like this would happen because my family, my land everything still in my heart, I will never, never forget for year, but these things happened is a good chance for us now. So now he starts- I got a gun from one of my friend, he said I have two guns, and we get go started. So, it is again with the government, kick the government not just me thousands, all the Kurdish people went to street, and everybody just get gun- 1:08:46 EI: All civilians they armed and started to fight- 1:08:49 JB: Yeah, everyone, because Saddam that time they gave a lot of weapons to Kurdish people to keep Kurdish, they still had the guns. So now these Kurdish people become against government, against Saddam’s army. 1:09:06 EI: Okay, so- 1:09:07 JB: Kind of revolution. 1:09:08 EI: Before that Saddam gave guns to Kurds to fight against other Kurds? 1:09:12 JB: Yeah. 1:09:12 EI: Now, these guns were used against him? 1:09:16 JB: Yeah. Now, but Kurds they have a nice heart, they never be punch other they do not try to punch- 1:09:27 EI: Revenge or something- 1:09:28 JB: Yeah. So, there was a lot of military in Kurdistan. We told them you know what, just leave your weapons, just go back, wherever you came from. None of them, because those people, those military, they made Anfal in our region, if anybody want to kill, they can kill thousand soldiers nobody tell them why you killed them. We told them you know what, just go back, just leave your gun, drop your gun and then wherever you came from. And we let them go, thousands just they went back to the border between our governments. They went to there, they stopped them there, and they give them gun again and came to fight us again. Now and that time Bush, father he was president, he said okay we going to stop war against Iraq because the purpose we needed we did it. So, we moved Saddam out of Kuwait control Kuwait now, we do not care about Saddam. Now Saddam brings his troops to against Kurds too. Now Kurds all of them moved again. They moved from all cities to the mountains and then now to Turkey and Iran and Syria. Now there is million- 1:10:52 EI: Because Saddam came back after uprising- 1:10:54 JB: Now there is million not just like before, before was maybe one million or two million, now two to three million coming, because all cities came. 1:10:02 EI: There was threat right, he said I will come to destroy you because of the uprising? 1:10:07 JB: Yeah because of the uprising and knew if he came, he can kill all these people because he did before in Halabja in Badinan in Soran and everywhere. So now we scared again because the government they have a lot of weapons, tanks or whatever. So now we moved again to Turkish border, Iran border- See I was one of them went to Turkey. So, when I got to Turkish border, I was- 1:11:31 EI: With your family or alone again? 1:11:33 JB: I lost my family again because I sent my family to Zakho, I am still in Duhok, because Zakho was safer because Duhok very close to the government, they bombed them. I told my family, I have my cousin in Zakho, I told them go there for a while until Duhok becomes safe and now is happened, they are in Zakho, I am in Duhok. I have no, I need car to get to Zakho, there is another way I can go, this street I remember I told about that was controlled by Iraqi government next to the Turkey and they come back to the Zakho. When I get there, I cannot go back there because no transmission to go that way. I do not have a car and it is too far, but I heard somebody told your family is coming this way. I was waiting and waiting and finally my family mom and kids came, I met them in Batifa, they call it Batifa in there. So now because I have experience with the border and stuff like that and now, they go to border. The good thing the military was you know not a lot left because all of them tired and they do not have weapons because American they destroyed Saddam’s army. So not that much left. They came to the city but not after us. So, we moved to the border of Turkey and then now we stayed in there. No food again, and we are far from the street in the Turkey and wintertime it was March 21st. It was Newroz that time I was on the border. It was snowing. 1:13:24 EI: In 1991? 1:13:24 JB: 1991. We went to the border again. So, it was Newroz. Newroz back Kurdistan in Iraq still warm but when you get Turkish border, mountain is still snowing, so snowing down there and nobody knows where we are, half million people again in the valley only one base of Turkish military is in there, they bring every day we call truck, they bring some bread for us. Nobody had nothing, so- 1:13:59 EI: That time I think the Iranian border was better or safer- 1:14:07 JB: Iranian is- was better because they let you go inside in Iran, go to village, go to cities wherever, I mean is better- 1:14:15 EI: Because the other people they said people who went to Iran they said it was better- 1:14:19 JB: It was better because they let you go inside; you can buy if you have some money or- I mean Iran was a lot better. But Turkey, no cities there, there is some village in there and then the cities in there in Turkish they did not let people to go inside, they did not like us, and we could not go anywhere. So, I was- 1:14:36 EI: And that time there was actually war in Turkey as well, I mean between the Turkish- 1:14:42 JB: I mean that time you could not, I mean Kurd in Turkey you could not talk by Kurdish language. Now we have a family, I have my everybody around me, but we do not have food, because I was in Turkey before- Now we are in Turkish border and like I said we had no food because of it was in Turkey that time about two years I could speak a little bit of Turkish. So, the jandarma in there know body knew how to talk Turkish you know so they said if anybody knows Turkish language just, I told them I know a little bit I became like leader for those people, like translator, so they gave me some food extra and gave me one tent too. Nobody had a tent that time. So, when the helicopter came from the United Nations, I think it was from Germany, it came saw all these people in there, so it landed there when it landed, they said nobody knows you are here because it is a big valley it is very close to Roboski, but Roboski is small about ten – twelve families in there, they just coming and go. They can help. We talked to them, and they said those people here, they do not have food, people dying. I still remember cemeteries here tomorrow always hundred people dies, in this cold and no food. So, they said okay nobody knows here but I promise I will let the United Nation and other agencies know that you are here. We will help. And a day after the helicopter is coming gave us food and some tents and some water. But those seventy-three there they go check first, anything is good they would take and then they give us the rest of it whatever left. 1:17:44 EI: Turkish jandarma. 1:17:45 JB: Turkish jandarma. And then they decided to move us from there to another place there is more easier to for transportation bring some food by Camion (Truck in French) or whatever they call it in there [Truck]. So, they moved us from Roboski to Ekmala, they called Ekmala too. So, when they moved us there, it was a lot better, there is a lot potatoes in there and flour is there and then people were more happy and they were not dying then. So, I stayed there until I become leader for my group so- 1:18:14 EI: How many groups were there, do you remember? Do you know the number? 1:18:17 JB: Nobody knows the number because- 1:18:19 EI: Can you guess? 1:18:20 JB: Just maybe about half million people. So, one guy I knew him his name is, he was from American military is he was sergeant his name was Mike, I do not know what his surname he was from California that time because I spoke a little bit English too. I became his friend and he said was little bit farther from the other people I mean not very far but a little bit, we were sitting there maybe there was ten minutes. He said okay I will bring by helicopter food for you, but we can clean make a little bit flat area to airplane land in there, I will bring some food for you and the other side is too far too far from there you cannot bring food all way down. I said I will be happy if you do this for me. And then there are people and friends coming make a little bit flat stone from there. It was a mountain, so the helicopter was coming there, and they bring food for us also we were now a little bit comfortable and the people they eat, and food was nice. But it is almost April 20 I do not know when it was, it was a little bit warm. And then now they made no-fly zone in Iraq. They now wanted us to move from Turkey back again to Iraq. I decided I took my family you know what I have been in this situation many times I am tired of go and come, go and come. I am staying here I will try to get out of Iraq that is it I decided. And the whole family agreed with that. One of my cousins from my mother’s side we were very close to each other he said I am not coming because my fiancée she went back to Kurdistan. So, he changed his mind, and his mother changed her mind and his brother, and my mom said okay my family lets go back to Iraq. I told them you know what let us go back to Kurdistan. We went back to Kurdistan again. When I went there, I had no house, I had no place to live in, the place I used to rent I talked to them you know what just give me couple months to live in here again he said okay. One of my friends came and said there is some place I know it used to be company and make some building in there, they moved because of war back to Pakistan and nobody live in there. I told him just show me where is it, I will put my family in there. I went to there I checked there was some of fifteen houses in there. Nobody lived in there, it is kind of cabin made just like American way. It is not concrete, so it is good for- But no electric, no nothing in there. So, I went there, I told the guy whom I rented the house from him I am going to move thank you very much. Everybody told me oh that is far, how can you take your family to there. I said you know what it is far, but it is mine. I can live in there, I took my family, I was not married at that time. So, my brothers my sisters my mom we went to their nobody was there, so we just lived there, cleaned it people broke the windows and everything. So, I fixed it I stayed there about until 1993 I was fully working government job for the Kurdish. So, they give me some money but too good and that time this organization is coming to rebuild Kurdistan again. So, one of them was called KRA- Kurdistan Relief Association, something like that- 1:22:30 EI: Organization of the Kurdish I mean Peshmerga? 1:22:33 JB: No, it is like they have an organization here, they help people, they have money. 1:22:39 EI: Civil organization? 1:22:40 JB: Yes civil, so the send, like they have to them they come to Kurdistan okay we have some money we want to build one village or hospital or something. So, we have organization in there too, I have my friend in there, he said okay. There is one organization coming from America. Actually, it was from Europe, Belgium so they had money, we going to rebuild the house. So, I become member with them. So, we tried to rebuild Kurdistan again. 1:23:09 EI: Okay rebuilding. 1:23:10 JB: Yeah. So, in 1996 this organizations come to here they went back to America so was Bill Clinton that time president in power and Saddam at that time he said anybody worked with these organizations; American, European or any other foreign organization we going to kill them. So now the problem for the organizations too. The organizations came back to America and Bill Clinton decided he said because what happened to us when we were in Vietnam, they killed a lot of people, Vietnamese people because they worked with us. So now those people bring back to or we going to take them to America if they want. So, you can register your name. So, I registered my name and went to the American organization, and they brought me here. I stayed in Guam; from Zakho all way to Guam. 1:24:23 EI: With your family or? 1:24:24 JB: No, me and my wife. I got married in 1993. 1:24:30 EI: How was the condition, where she relative or- 1:24:37 JB: She was not my relative but was a neighbor of my uncle, so we know each other and just got married. And back then we had only one kid, actually it was his first birthday we did in Guam, because his birthday is 1994 April 19th. So, I got out from Kurdistan it was December 16th I believe. And we stayed in Guam until April. So, make paper stuff in Guam until can be ready, they brought me all the way here from Guam to New York. When I got New York and I had my friend because we were in camp in Turkey, so I went back to Iraq, he did not come to Iraq, he registered his name and he tried to get out, he came from Turkey to Binghamton. I knew he was here, but I finally got his phone number from somebody I called him and told him you know what now I am coming to America, but I do not know about America I do not know how it looks like I do not know, I need help. He said okay, we will help you as fast as I can. I live in Binghamton, New York. Here is my address, here is my phone. And give my name to those people they will bring you here to immigration. If they bring you here, I will be happy to get you help. So, I know this guy and those my friends we are about four- five friends together, I told him you know that all, I have my friends he going to help me, he going to help you too if you come with me. They said okay, we will come together. So, the guy yesterday and he translate to me yesterday you remember, Shivan, his father has a big family about sixteen kids- 1:26:33 EI: You all came together? 1:26:34 JB: We all came together. I mean different days; we all came from Guam to here. And another two friends. So, we came from Guam all way to Binghamton, New York. We do not speak English very good. I mean we had one friend he spoke English, but those people were here, we have more families here I know them and then they helped us a lot. 1:26:55 EI: Kurdish families as well? 1:26:57 JB: Kurdish families. 1:26:58 EI: They came before you? 1:26:59 JB: They came before us about for – five years. 1:27:01 EI: After, during 1991? 1:27:06 JB: Yeah, not those people during Anfal they stayed in Turkey in the camps, and they brought them here- 1:27:13 EI: And then they did not go back to Iraq and directly came here. 1:27:19 JB: No. [they did not go back to Iraq], just directly to here. Some of them went to Europe. 1:27:23 EI: Okay. 1:27:23 JB: So those people they helped us a lot, anything we needed, they came to help us, and my friend is here. When I first I came I stayed with his family about one month in his house and the day I got out from his house, he gave me anything from dish, clothes and blanket and anything I needed to put in my apartment. So, he helped me a lot. And we need to speak English a little bit. So, I went to American Civic Association to learn English, the call it English second language. And finally, I tried to find a job because you know the social service that time did not help if your work is better. I found my job. 1:28:06 EI: What were you doing? 1:28:07 JB: I was working for Felchar first my job in America. Felchar is a manufacturing company they make vacuum. So, I work in there and then just little bit English I went back to school for English as a second language and try to get computer information system. 1:28:30 EI: You got your two-year degree here, right? 1:28:35 JB: I did not graduate but because of my- I work and my family; work and go to school is not easy. I did not graduate. So, until 2009 or 2007, we had another kid his name Blind. There was a big gap between the first and the second. Now we are happy we have another one. So, after one year, a yeah and a half later we had another one his name is Avend, and after two years we had another one his name is Havend. So, we had Aland, Blind, Avend and Havend. It is four kids. Until now I am here. I am back to Kurdistan twice, my wife and kids- 1:29:26 EI: When did you go? 1:29:28 JB: I went last year. 1:29:30 EI: Last year? The first time? 1:29:32 JB: No. 1:29:33 EI: After 1997? 1:29:35 JB: I went 2001. 1:29:37 EI: How was it? 1:29:39 JB: In Kurdistan was- 1:29:41 EI: First time because you left the country in 1996. 1:29:44 JB: In 1996 was bad, because economic was down, people did not have money. No work. 1:29:51 EI: Although there was not soldier suppression or something, was there any? 1:29:56 JB: No, no soldier. Because we had no fly zone in there. 1:30:02 EI: Do you remember how the Kurds got control after 1991, I mean you came back from- 1:30:10 JB: From Turkish border? 1:30:12 EI: Yeah, when- did you back directly- 1:30:17 JB: To Duhok. 1:30:18 EI: Yeah, so what was the government there? 1:30:21 JB: Okay. There was no government there. There was some police stations belonged to Iraq still in the cities. So, but because the United Nations and the Coalitions forces whatever they called it, they made no fly zone for us, so they brought us back from Turkey to our region that includes, Hawler and Sulaimaniya. So, everybody went back to their places. It was really bad, no food, no work, no nothing. Everybody, people you know tried to survive. Most people they went back to agriculture you know to plant rise, wheat anything you need for your family to eat and the United Nations, organizations coming to help us. 1:31:10 EI: So, how the Kurdish government established there, was there any Kurdish government or soldier- 1:31:15 JB: Back there? 1:31:16 EI: Yeah. 1:31:16 JB: No, no government in there only some Iraqi soldiers, but when we came back so we became government. Everybody had a gun, and Peshmerga came so- 1:31:26 EI: How was that part? Peshmerga just came and they say like we are the government or? 1:31:31 JB: Yeah, because we had two parties big power I mean I can tell you two, there were a lot parties in there like Hizb. The parties in there they were KDP and PUK; these two they had a lot of power. 1:31:44 EI: Talabani and Barzani? 1:31:45 JB: Talabani and Barzani, and there was PKDP and KSP and CKP and a lot in there, but the most powerful parties were the two Barzani’s and Talabani’s. So, they had a lot of people. But both of them they had experience with how to lead people, so they almost controlled the area. We had government and stuff and people they bring helps so it was bad because no nothing, I mean no work, no money, no food but you had to be survived. They made own government in 1991 late. So was that they called Baray Kurdistani, so they made government from all these parties and then Masoud Barzani he decided to make election, so people they elected and then Parliament, Parliament we still have and after that they voted for Kurdistan president and Masoud Barzani he became president for that big government, now government is developing- But I was there until I mean 1996 when I got out from border from Kurdistan it was not too good because we just beginning to build Kurdistan. 1:33:21 EI: Okay, I mean the problem was economic mostly. 1:33:24 JB: Yeah, mostly was economic. And not safe yet because Saddam you never know is coming or not coming, you know is a political sometimes they make agreement with some other country they come back too. So, it was not safe yet but when we got out of there, I got here it was not construction or stuff like that was not good but beginning to rebuild the country. 1:33:52 EI: Were you part of any conflict, or where you include in any conflict, I mean did you fight that time? 1:33:57 JB: I was with Masoud’s party. 1:34:01 EI: So how did you join them? When did you join them and how? 1:34:06 JB: I joined them; I was member of party in 1996. I was young, I was before Anfal. 1:34:14 EI: 1986? 1:34:15 JB: 1986. 1:34:16 EI: Okay. 1:34:16 JB: I was member they call it you know Tanzim Dakhili [undercover agent], we just tried to register in party Baath secret nobody knew. So, I was with them. 1:34:25 EI: When you were in high school right? 1:34:27 JB: Yeah, I was in the high school at that time, but I was young. I was member with them, but when we left for Turkey and they came back now I was, nobody knew and then until you know 1991 so in (19)91 when everything happened, you can get gun anything you can do you know by- 1:34:48 EI: So, you got you gone- 1:34:50 JB: Yeah, my gun I got- 1:34:54 EI: But did you do any military service in Peshmerga? 1:34:56 JB: No, I did not go to military. I cannot force it I do not like military sometime but want to be like sitting in office or do something… So I was, we had an office, so in our office we had a lot of members from the city, we had part of this city is belonged to you going to take care of these people you know- 1:35:23 EI: Oh! So, you were responsible- 1:35:24 JB: Yeah, so me and my friend until I- 1:35:28 EI: Like you were part of bureaucrat not military but the bureaucrat. 1:35:31 JB: Yeah. So, I was with them until now, but from here- 1:35:41 EI: Are you still part of it? 1:35:43 JB: I am still part of it. 1:35:45 EI: Can you go and serve? 1:35:50 JB: If I go back, I will do. 1:35:55 EI: Okay, yeah. Perfect. So, where were you responsible that time as officer to Kurdish government or to central government? 1:36:01 JB: No for Kurdish government, I do not care about central government, just for Kurdish government, because we are Kurdish not Arabs, we are not Iraqis at least because but they put with Iraq so, but now we are part of Iraq, so we have no choice I hope tomorrow tell okay you are not, we are not- But we still part of Iraq. 1:36:30 EI: So, in 2001 you said you went back to Kurdistan? 1:36:35 JB: 2001 I went back to Kurdistan is developing just a little bit but not that much people still no work. 1:36:44 EI: How were the conditions before the American second gulf war? 1:36:50 JB: 2001, no, that is after. 1:36:57 EI: Yeah, 2002, right? America went again. 1:37:00 JB: 2003 to remove Saddam. 1:37:04 EI: Okay. 1:37:05 JB: Now Saddam- 1:37:07 EI: Still in power- 1:37:09 JB: He was in power at that time, this way we came over here, they said we going to kill you, so we should come back, and a good chance to get out of Iraq, there was chance you can help your family because dinar that time when came here I remember one dollar become 100 dinar, Iraqi dinar, and before- 1:37:28 EI: Inflation? 1:37:29 JB: Before in 1986, 1988 when we moved from Kurdistan to Turkey, that time I remember one dinar was six dollars. 1:37:38 EI: So, Saddam was powerful. 1:37:42 JB: So, lost all this economic, no money, no nothing, so one dollar become 100 dinars. So, economics were very bad, so when we got chance to get out from the American, they have working with American some might help your family that was why we came over here. I am not coming over here just to, because of scare or something, be honest with you just moved over here to help my family. So, when I got here, I work in here I send some money to my family, even one hundred dollar you send your family is too much down there. When I was working with the organization, they would give me about sixty-five dollar the whole month. It was too much, not a lot of people could get that much money, but now in 2000 I mean last year when I went there, it is too much, we are now behind. It is too much. 1:38:37 EI: Yeah, your second time. 1:38:39 JB: My second time, last summer. 1:38:43 EI: So, what is your emotions? 1:38:44 JB: Trust me my brother he came to pick me up from the airport in Erbil, he took me to my house remember I took my family put in the house, I did not it is my house, because it was mansions around and there are nice streets there is that place I used to make kind of vegetable and stuff now what they call it, now what they call it imara [high buildings] big buildings in there you cannot even imagine. Everybody is happy for that, everybody is rich. 1:39:19 EI: So, development- 1:39:20 JB: Development increased. 1:39:21 EI: Welfare, okay. 1:39:23 JB: The development you see you cannot believe it. 1:39:25 EI: So, you went to Istanbul and then Erbil? 1:39:27 JB: No, I went from here all way to Qatar. 1:39:29 EI: To Qatar? 1:39:30 JB: Okay, from Qatar all way to Erbil. 1:39:34 EI: Okay. So, when you go to airport, it is Erbil airport, it I Kurdish, officers are Kurds. How was it? 1:39:40 JB: When you get there, what they call about the janna, what they call- 1:39:49 EI: Paradise? 1:39:50 JB: Paradise. No, I am very excited but because too much excited you shake, because you are happy, too much happy. It used to be when you go to any border or any airport you going to talk one language which is not your language, now you going to talk your language. This service people you know they speak your language and officers speak your language, say whatever you want you are not scared from nobody, and the best airport in the middle east now. So, I just can believe- how to describe this happened you know. 1:40:28 EI: I mean did you compare that like I left my country ten years ago now I am back- 1:40:37 JB: The city was small; the city of Duhok was very small that time. Every day we walk from this side to the other side; from north to south, from south to north, I mean you could walk, now by car take one hour to get from this side to the other side all way joined up. Now I went to the place I told you I make vegetable and stuff around, now- 1:41:11 EI: So, what is life, what does it look like now in Kurdistan, I mean when you go there your neighbor, maybe you met with your friends, your childhood friends I mean how was it? What were you talking about? 1:41:24 JB: I guess everybody is busy now, but anybody you see them, he is happy because he is rich, I mean they have money. They can take you to dinner or to picnic or somewhere, if he has time but because you go from here you have free time you just go spend nice vacation in there but people working in there. They are working, if somebody comes from there to here, I cannot spend one month, spend whole one month with him, because I am working here. But he has or he take his vacation whole month, he is free. 1:41:58 EI: Do you have relatives there right? Your mom- 1:41:59 JB: My mom is there, my two brothers still there, and a brother have kids and my uncle everybody is there- 1:42:08 EI: Are they happy like- 1:42:09 JB: Yeah, they are happy now, but they lost member, but you know people forget. 1:42:14 EI: So difficult. 1:42:15 JB: Yeah, I mean the first time I went there the only thing is there I know when you visit to friend, your cousin, your family or relative, I mean they are poor, you cannot help all of them. That is the problem. I mean if I come to your house and then you are my friend or relative or whatever, I know your kids need money, if I do not have it, I cannot help you. You know whatever you can this is sad for you. But this time I went there, when I went there nobody needed me anymore now it is opposite way. 1:42:50 EI: Oh, in 2001 they needed you but now- 1:42:52 JB: Now, they do not need us, then everybody is happy just like the lady she said you can talk about eight hours sit down- 1:43:14 EI: [laughs] So how is your reaction to officers I mean before the soldiers were scary for you, the Iraqi soldiers, Iraqi officers. There should be a gap between- it should be difficult to talk with them, now what do you think, it is ordinary. 1:43:25 JB: Now I will tell you; it happened to me, before office I want to have something to do in office like make ID or something it took you long time, but any office I go there my friend is there, my relative just sit down and talk, and joke and then he can make your paper he is happy. That is your only government. If somebody’s government they do not serve you, they do not help you, just come for money or- but if it is your government from your own people or culture or nation, you would be happy because I went to, I mean one place it is not easy everybody get in there because it is a security is like what they call, like here homeland security, you cannot get in there easy but when I went there, I told them I have some paper to finish, somebody told me just go there but takes about months maybe until finish because they going to go check background and everything you know, told him who is there, the mudeer what they call it? 1:44:32 EI: Mudeer? 1:44:33 JB: Yeah. 1:44:33 EI: Officer maybe? 1:44:34 JB: Officer, yeah. Told him who was there. He named one guy I told him he is my friend, he said your friend, I said yeah. My brother came with me, I went to there I asked them the security people around the building I told them I want to see your boss, he said who are you, tell him who is coming because it is not easy to get there. I told him my name and tell him he is coming. He came from his office took me inside you know, that is because your government. 1:45:17 EI: Okay. 1:45:17 JB: You will be happy you know your brother, your cousin or neighbor or from your village or somewhere is doing in the office or somewhere just for you. That is the difference, before I cannot see him, I cannot talk to him, and I can tell him just do it, but the paper I gave to him, he did it in five minutes, he told me sit down and somebody would take it from this office to the other office until it finished. But if the other way, maybe takes month. 1:45:49 EI: So, I mean you are happy with the life situation in Kurdistan. 1:45:52 JB: I was very happy. I was very happy. 1:45:55 EI: You think it should develop more or- 1:45:56 JB: It will develop more because Kurdistan is a poor sea of the oil. 1:46:04 EI: So, you said you are not happy that you are still part of Iraq? 1:46:07 JB: No, I am not happy, and I wish it is separate now and we have a big wall between us. Because those people not you know even trust them, they are not become your friend they always try to- 1:46:25 EI: I mean, yeah, the problem is about the nation or the government? What do you think? 1:46:30 JB: The government is part of the nation. 1:46:32 EI: I mean do you have any Arab neighbors or friends, were there any problems? 1:46:38 JB: Not exactly my place but I know a lot I mean they are nice but when they become government it changes. 1:46:48 EI: As an individual you do not have any problem? 1:46:50 JB: With other people, no. because you know always problems come from government, I mean small problem maybe you know between families, or some stuff happens but anything problem is from government. 1:47:05 EI: Okay. Do you think you will go back one day or? 1:47:07 JB: If not because of my kids going to college now, I will go tomorrow. 1:47:12 EI: Not now? 1:47:13 JB: I mean if not because of my kids. Because I send them, they want to go to best college, they want to be doctor, you know education in this country is better than our country, so the best thing I think for me if I stay with him until he graduates from his school and then will tell them you know goodbye. 1:47:31 EI: So, you want to back. 1:47:32 JB: I want to back as soon as possible. 1:47:37 EI: Okay. What is your job now, what are you doing here? 1:47:41 JB: I am working in EAT Manufacturing. 1:47:43 EI: It is like factory or? 1:47:46 JB: Yeah, company. It is a company. 1:47:50 EI: As what? What are you doing? 1:47:52 JB: They build boards for computers and stuff like that. 1:47:56 EI: Okay. Perfect. And I took a note like in 1994 around that time there was a problem between Kurdish parties as well, right? Between Barzani and Talabani, what was the main reason? You were one- 1:48:16 JB: I was one party. The reason is- 1:48:17 EI: You know from inside- 1:48:18 JB: Yeah, the reason is just for power, so each party they wanted to get more power from this side. Actually, I mean Barzani’s party we have more power than others, so like the others. So, like the other like opposition, so they try to good and because of money they a lot of things you know, other saying in the other party we do not want to be I mean out of power, so it was beginning so, very beginning so it was bad, they said you know we killed each other for no reason. I mean power is not a thing that you can kill your brother, your cousin because all of them are relatives. 1:49:01 EI: What is called in Kurdish, Brakuzhi? 1:49:03 JB: Brakuzhi? 1:49:04 EI: Yeah. 1:49:04 JB: That is something sad you know, nobody happy with that but it happened. 1:49:10 EI: Yeah, when you back from here you said it is about the power, I mean so you were not happy with that? 1:49:16 JB: No, nobody was happy, I am one of them, I am with Barzani’s party, but I am not happy. 1:49:20 EI: Will it happen again? 1:49:21 JB: I hope not but and then Barzani he decided anything for that not to happen again. Just I do not want to Kurdish people kill each other. 1:49:37 EI: So maybe that time it would be difficult but were you aware of the situation of other Kurds as well? 1:49:42 JB: Like? 1:49:43 EI: Like in Turkey, in Iran, in Syria. 1:49:45 JB: You know because of it is political, Iran maybe supported one group, Turkey support one group and Iraq support the other group, so they are trying to you know make problem in the area, in the region of Kurdistan. So is happen, I hope not because now is very safe, before it happened between PKK and ours side but both sides they knew there is not going to happen, so that something affect both sides, so I am happy not, I mean they stopped, they do not kill each other because is a Kurdish wanted to offer Diyarbakir of from Erbil or from Iran is a full one nation, one brother, just somebody divided them. 1:50:39 EI: Yeah, do you see their destiny is the same or I mean They should be united, or it is fine now, what do you think about all of them, not just Iraq or? 1:50:52 JB: You know I hope, that is any Kurdish hope that the borders destroyed, disappear- all Kurdistan become one Kurdistan, but that is happen is now is part of Iraq or Syria or Turkey or Iran, but fight nobody like it and then we are better than before in the part of Iraq, I mean we have our government we have parliament , I hope the other sides have the same thing and they have power in Turkey, Syria and Iran because in Turkey I believe is now more than forty million people love in Turkey, so they are Kurd, nobody can take your ID because you are not Kurd or whatever, change your nationality. They tried before they did everything they could, but now the truth coming, so you are Kurd, I am Kurd, I am going to be here this is where I love. So, if you want to fight, I am going to fight for y land for my life for my nationality but if you want to peace, I am here for peace. 1:52:03 EI: Good, last question, one of the last two questions I think, a lot of time. Here after 2001, 9/11 did you have any problem here? 1:52:25 JB: In the, the problem for anybody, this history in America, anybody comes from a different country to here, they have a problem, the problem is it is not your language, you did not grow up here, so maybe language is a problem and you- 1:52:35 EI: Do you feel any discrimination or something because you are Muslim? 1:52:38 JB: No, to be honest with you since I am here something like that never happened to me or a person, but I never seen anybody else because this country is very open country for nationality or religion but the problem is inside you, yourself, so when you come from a different country to here, it does not matter where country you are from, half time you are here, half time you are there, you are not from here, you are not from there, so both in both, between both, but generation after generation, your kids growing, is growing in this country, so becomes part of this country. 1:53:11 EI: They integrate. 1:53:12 JB: Yeah. So, after them, their kids, they will totally forget what they are from, so this country become- 1:53:19 EI: You want them to forget your child? 1:53:21 JB: I hope not, it depends how can I but I will take every year, or maybe more than one year, two years to there to just you know they know they have relative in there and they are from here [Kurdistan] and they have own language, they have everything, and if they graduate in here. 1:53:37 EI: So, you have communication with other Kurds here as well. 1:53:42 JB: They are tied with each other, they are close to each other, so this is why I am here I am happy in this area because small area we know each other you know for wedding for party for visit other, any something sad is happened so, everybody knows each other. 1:54:01 EI: Okay. You are coming together for Newroz or other ceremonies? 1:54:05 JB: Yeah, you know sometimes work in your job it depends how you can but most of the time everybody is coming. 1:54:14 EI: You are trying to meet together, continue culture. Yeah okay. Thank you so much. 1:54:22 JB: Thank you, I am here again, you have my phone number, anything else you need me just I am like your brother. 1:54:30 EI: Thank you so much for everything. 1:54:32 JB: Okay. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Date of Interview 6 March 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Ajamian Smaldone Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 47:00 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <p><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Karen is a second generation American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She was born in the United States and currently resides with her husbands and three kids. She holds a masters degree and is a music adjuct professor. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14657,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"9":0,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Karen is a second generation Armenian-American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She currently resides with her husband and three kids in Manhasset and teaches at Queens College. </span><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Karen is a second generation American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She was born in the United States and currently resides with her husbands and three kids. She holds a masters degree and is a music adjuct professor. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14657,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"9":0,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Karen holds a Bachelor's degree in Music and an Master's degree in Special Education, both from Queens College, CUNY.</span></p> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenian; Eastern Turkey; New Jersey; second generation; Armenian Diaspora; Armenian culture; Armenian church; Armenian camp; Sunday School "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14593,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenian; Eastern Turkey; New Jersey; second generation; Armenian Diaspora; Armenian culture; Armenian church; Armenian camp; Sunday School </span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Karen Ajamian Smaldone Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 6 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 GS: My name is Gregory Smaldone. I am an interviewer at the University of Binghamton, history department, here to interview Karen Ajamian Smaldone for an Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please tell us your name and your basic biographical information for the record? 0:19 KS: I am Karen Ajamian Smaldone. I am fifty-nine years old. I was born to parents who were first generation American. They were from eastern Turkey. , I am sorry, their parents were from eastern Turkey and immigrated to the United States in the early (19)20s. My parents spoke fluent Armenian in their childhood homes. 0:51 GS: That is fine for now, we will get to those ̶ 0:53 KS: Okay. 0:53 GS: What was ̶ your parents were both ethnic Armenians? 0:58 KS: They were. 1:00 GS: Okay. What is your highest level of education, your occupation, your marital status ̶ children that you have, their genders? Tell us about your family, your life. 1:11 KS: I am married for thirty-seven years. I have three children; their ages are twenty-seven, twenty-four and twenty-one. 1:18 GS: Their genders? 1:20 KS: Twenty-seven is a female, twenty-four is a male, twenty-one is a female. My highest level of education is a Master’s degree. I am a retired public school music teacher and I am now an adjunct professor in music education department at Queens College CUNY University of New York. 1:39 GS: What is your spouse's ethnicity? 1:42 KS: My spouse is a third generation American. His ancestral background is Italian and Irish. 1:50 GS: What were your roles and responsibilities in your home and what were those of your spouse's? 1:58 KS: As a child? 1:59 GS: As an adult. 2:00 KS: As an adult ̶ My spouse and I had very equal roles. We both worked and contributed to the household income. We co-parented our children. I would say more or less maybe 75 percent – 60 percent me, and 40 percent him based on our schedules. My husband is a professor of Music so as such; his daily schedule could be modified. 2:36 GS: Okay, thank you. Tell us about your parents, their ̶ what were their occupations? 2:41 KS: So my mother, before she got married, was a secretary. Apparently she was a very above average student in high school, but was not given the opportunity to attend college. She was born in 1924. She was an executive secretary. Then was a homemaker for about five years and then went back to work were we lived in Union City, New Jersey, and she worked in the mayor's office as an executive secretary. 3:27 GS: What was your parents or your father's occupation? 3:30 KS: My father was about twelve to fifteen years older than my mother. He was a lawyer. He was a councilman in New Jersey and was on the New Jersey state senate. 3:46 GS: Okay. What were your parent's role in the house? 3:53 KS: My father died when I was three and a half but prior to that the roles in the home were, from what I understand, very traditional with my mother being home full time and my father working. Once my father passed away my mother took small part-time jobs such as typing labels, she would bring labels into the home, type up the address labels and then deliver them back to the company. Once I was in fourth grade and my twin sister and brother were in first grade, that was when she went back to work full time in the mayor's office in city hall and they afforded her school hours so basically nine to four so she could be home at night for her children. 4:47 GS: What were the circumstances that prompted your ancestors leaving their homeland to come to America? 4:55 KS: My mother's mother was a victim of the Armenian genocide and her father, my great grandfather had some political connections and was able to allow my grandmother to be taken out of eastern Turkey out of harm's way and into an orphanage. Maybe at the age of eight, and she was brought to America by other family members in the early (19)20s to what has never been said but in my opinion was an arranged marriage. She married my grandfather and they had four girls together. My grandfather was about twelve years older than her. His family came to America with him; he was born in eastern Turkey the very late 1800s. We actually have the ship manifest. Although it has never been said, my cousins and I, our generation, suspect that my grandfather most likely had a wife and possibly children in Turkey that he either left, or lost; we are really not sure, and then came to America and established a new life and then married my grandmother. 6:39 GS: Okay. What are your childhood memories such as your kinship group, and what your goals and aspirations were? 6:51 KS: So the childhood, the absence of the father in the home, made us unique in the early (19)60s. My father died in 1960. But we ̶ there was a very strong sense of a family in both local community and the Armenian community. Church and religion was a very important part of my mother's upbringing and when we were young, say, under the age of five, my mother took my sister, brother and I, to a local reform church, so some sort of Protestant of non-denominational type of thing, which was literally less than a block from our house and we attended Sunday school there, nursery Sunday school and services because the Armenian Church was about, I would say, about eight miles away and my mother did not drive. Now that Armenian Church, her father, my grandfather, was a founding member in the (19)40s. So it is a very important church to her. When I was in early elementary school, the priest from that church was ̶ took notice, and wanted to rectify the situation that my mother, the daughter of a founding father of the church, was not able to attend services because she did not drive and she had three young children. So the priest arranged to have a family who lived near us to pick us up every Sunday and take us to church and to Sunday school, bring us home. There was also on Saturday an Armenian language day school that the church ran and they actually ran a school bus for that so my sister and brother and I, very reluctantly and not happily, went off to Armenian language school. 9:13 GS: How long did you attend? 9:15 KS: I would say about four or five years. 9:16 GS: And it was you and your siblings? Was there anyone else that you knew, that you attended with? 09:22 KS: A lot of the people from Sunday school, a lot of the other children from Sunday school were there but ̶ 09:26 GS: How important was it within your community to attend an Armenian language school? 9:33 KS: At that time it was very important. So there were a lot of, American children, American born children, like myself, second generation Americans, when we got to Sunday school, what we were finding is that there were a lot of first-generation children who were fluent because Armenian was the only language that was spoken at home, and there was always this divide that, you know, why are these kids in language school when they're fluent and again you are talking about the 1960s, there was no real educational strategies being employed. So it was the kids who could speak and the kids who could not speak and honestly, you know, other than a few vocabulary words, I never learned to speak. Today, fifty years later, in the Armenian community that I live in, Nassau county, Long Island, there is an Armenian day school still on Saturdays and I would have to say that 95 percent of those children again are fluent and the possibly really not assimilating into American society. Most, for my own children for instance, we did not subject them to Saturday language school because they are completely immersed in the American way of life, with, you know, Saturday sports, CYO, piano lessons, etc. 11:18 GS: Alright, we will come back to this. When you were a child, how important was it within your family that you attended Armenian language school and learn the Armenian language? 11:27 KS: It was important but there are eleven first cousins on my mother's side of the family and I am amongst the four youngest. So my older cousins who are seven, six, five, four, three years older than me, most of them lived with either our grandmother or a grandparent from their father's side of the family and those children, because grandparents were in the home, primarily speaking Armenian. My older cousins were fluent. In fact my older cousins, who are now sixty-seven and sixty-six, went to kindergarten not speaking any English. 12:19 GS: How would you describe the Armenian community in general growing up, where were the social spaces? How important was the home? How important was the church? 12:32 KS: So all those things were one and the same; the church, the home, the social spaces. If we were going to an Armenian teenage dance, the Armenian equivalent of the catholic CYO, ACYOA: the Armenian Christian Youth organization. If we were going to an Armenian dance no questions were ever asked. If I was going to a high school dance, that was a different story. All of my Armenian peers, we went to language school, we went to the youth group ACYOA, we went to Sunday school, and we went to Armenian camp. Camp Nubar was established in 1963, and it was established by the Armenian General Benevolent Union, AGBU. And immediately it became an extremely popular camp and the camp was immersed with, you know, Armenian language, Armenian dancing, Armenian cooking, but the Armenians are big assimilators and therefore there were horseback riding, canoeing, swimming, camp craft. Again, I attended Armenian camp for two weeks when I was 8 years old, sleep away camp which was unheard of but it was "okay" because it was Armenian camp and my cousins were there and my mother new the director and everybody knew everybody. 14:24 GS: What was the nature of your associations with non-Armenians as a child? 14:30 KS: My neighborhood kids, neighborhood friends were not Armenian, almost all of them were Catholic and definitely the question was always, you know, what are you ̶ I am Armenian, what is Armenian ̶ and my answer would be: Oh it is almost like Greek. The neighborhood was very catholic. All my friends went to confession on Saturdays. They went to mass on Sundays, you know, first communions, confirmations, catholic holidays, celebrated in school, and nobody ever knew what Armenians were ̶ I forgot the question. 15:18 GS: We were just talking about your relationship with non-Armenians as a child. 15:23 KS: So yeah, so I had neighborhood friends and to this day I talk about my childhood girlfriends, my high school girlfriends, my Armenian friends, my Armenian friends from camp my Armenian friends from church so ̶ 15:41 GS: So they were kind of ̶ they were worlds apart, you had your Armenian friends and you had your non-Armenian friends? 15:46 KS: They were definitely worlds apart, and, you know, fast forward to this point in time, my "childhood friends" know of my Armenian friends from childhood and vice versa but they still do not interact. Where this becomes ̶ where the story changes a little bit, I live in Manhasset, which has a very large Armenian population. There are many people my age and we raised our children going to Sunday school in the Armenian church, now our children are young adults, and living in Manhasset so now these "Armenian friends" are also friends with my neighbors and other community members so there’s kind of blending but we are still kind of known as ̶ oh, you know ̶ Alexis from church, you know, Lorry from church, she is my Armenian friend, do you know so and so, she is Armenian. 16:51 GS: Would you say ̶ your experience growing up, where you had a separation between your Armenian and your non Armenian friends? Do you think that was typical of the Armenian people you grew up with or was this more something personal for you? 17:05 KS: No ̶ if there were families where the children where first generation, again I am second generation, they were very separated from the daily life in Union City. So, here is a silly story, but it is something that resonates with me. People of the Middle East are very fond of yoghurt. So now were talking 1965, 1966, the yoghurt craze that America's experiencing now did not exist. If you needed yoghurt, you got a small four or six ounce container in the supermarket and you made your own yoghurt at home not in the salt in yoghurt maker, but over the stove, with milk and the yoghurt that you bought in the store is the starter, it is the mother. And my mother, every single week, we had a mayonnaise jar, empty mayonnaise jar, wrapped in a bath towel, sitting over the pilot on the stove to keep the ̶ I do not know what the word is called ̶ to cure the yoghurt okay, and that was how we had yoghurt, and my friends just could not like the yoghurt ̶ what the hell ̶ they just could not understand it ̶ 18:32 GS: Your non-Armenian friends? 18:33 KS: My non-Armenian friends. 18:34 GS: Your Armenian friends, did they have similar experiences with yoghurt? 18:38 KS: Worse. my Armenian friends who was first generation American, yeah, first generation, maybe she was even an immigrant, I do not even know, when she heard that my mother was going to the store to buy the starter yoghurt, she said ̶ oh no, no, no, no ̶ We only get ̶ if we do not have starter yoghurt in our own home, we only go to somebody else’s home and borrow their starter.[laughs] I am like you cannot make this stuff up.[laughter] And then I felt like a lesser Armenian because my mother used ̶ you know. 19:12 GS: Store bought yoghurt. What traditions and customs from your parents' home are most important for you to maintain and why, and if there are any, what are the challenges involved in this? 19:28 KS: So the cooking, obviously with any ethnic group, is very significant, there were, you know, specialty recipes that were associated with certain holidays 19:40 GS: Could you name a few? 19:41 KS: Sure. There is a çörek, which is a yeast bread, egg bread, almost like a challah and that is like the Greeks that is affiliated with Easter. It is a tedious, day long process where you are making the dough, proofing it, letting it rise, punch it down, let it rise again, form it into loaves, let the loaves rise and then bake it. It is delicious, um big big, big process. There is myriad recipes made with filo dough which has to be number four filo dough and you have to buy it fresh from a Mid-Eastern or Armenian or God Forbid Turkish grocery store. You do not want to get your filo dough frozen from the local supermarket. That is a big no-no, um filo dough is turned into myriad desserts that is kind of becoming international now such as baklava or burma which is just crushed walnuts and some spices, sugar and water, honey and water. Filo dough is also turned into cheese börek which is kind of typical of a Greek spanakopita, filled with a variety of cheeses, this has become an Americanized recipe because my mother and her generation used cream cheese and Muenster cheese which obviously was not available in Eastern Turkey. It has been told that they use pot cheese, some sort of cottage cheese type of mix, but Armenian-Americans are big with the cream cheese and Muenster cheese. 21:57 GS: What are the challenges involved in maintaining these traditions? 22:02 KS: Well, they are very time consuming, but I do not think it is unique to the Armenian people, you look at the Italians who celebrate the seven fishes on Christmas eve, and that’s an extremely time intensive task. But yeah, they are time consuming, and sometimes the ingredients are not readily available. I think there is more acceptance and more interest in other cultures now so if you have American guests in your home, they are interested in dishes from your ethnic heritage as opposed to when I was a child in the (19)60s where you went, um you know, if I had an American friend come to my house and there was an Armenian dinner on the table, those foods would be very foreign to those children. So that kind, you know, with our worldwide assimilation of food all over the place, it has become a lot easier, it is not even a challenge it has become easier to share the foods. The other traditions um, our Christmas is January 6th, it is not December 25th. Did I ever take a day off from work to go to church on "Armenian Christmas"? No. Many people do. Christmas, December 25th, the Armenians refer to as American Christmas, but there is not one Armenian that I know that does not celebrate December 25th. 23:57 GS: Was this true growing up? 24:00 KS: It was also true growing up, again big assimilators, but you know. 24:05 GS: Was January 6th heavily celebrated within your community? 24:09 KS: It was celebrated in church. 24:11 GS: Church, but it was not. 24:12 KS: I did not get extra presents or anything like that. 24:15 GS: But like you said before there is very little difference between the home, the church and the social space. 24:18 KS: That’s right. 24:19 GS: Would you say this kind of holds for January 6th? Would you say that people in the community saw the January 6th church services as just the church keeping a church holiday alive or did they see it as the community's time to celebrate their Christmas? 24:38 KS: It is a religious holiday. It is a day of religious obligations they take it very seriously. 24:43 GS: So it was a church holiday but church holidays are taken seriously? 24:48 KS: Yes 24:48 GS: Okay, Thank you. Um, how were your parents cared for as they aged? 24:54 KS: My father died suddenly when I was young, so that ended that. My mother remarried. My stepfather died at the age seventy-nine. He did not require um, well, he was seventy-nine, my mother was seventy-five so he did not really, yeah it was not difficult to take care of him and also he died rather quickly. My mother on the other hand, lived to the age of eighty-eight and the last three years of her life were extremely challenging. The last eleven months of her life, as she had fallen, broken her hip, lost oxygen in the hospital, never really recovered. So she was taken care of by twenty-four hour day care which was extremely expensive but ̶ 25:51 GS: Where was this care? 25:52 KS: The care was primarily, the first four months was in my home, in my living room. We moved everything out, we put a hospital bed in, all of my children participated. I had neighbors that came and checked in on her and my mother had moved after my stepfather died. She sold the house and moved to ̶ she rented a house about a block and a half away from me. And we moved her back there with her twenty-four hour care with the intent of refinishing our first floor den so she can come back here, but then when she went back to her apartment her condition worsened. It became very clear that she was not going to live much longer and we did not disrupt her again so she was in her apartment and my children and my husband and myself and my neighbors you know, who would, because I worked, some of my neighbors would stop in ̶ 27:10 GS: Was it only your Armenian neighbors who stopped in? 27:13 KS: Nope, not only Armenian neighbors. Everyone stopped in. And this went on for about eight months before she passed away. 27:26 GS: What levels of education have your children achieved and what are their occupations and where do they live? 27:37 KS: My oldest daughter, Loris, twenty-seven years old. She has a Master’s degree and she is a teacher in New York City and she lives in New Nork city in a rented apartment and she completely supports herself. We do not support her. My son is about to receive his Master’s degree in History and he has been, I would say, 90 percent financially self-sufficient for the last two years. My youngest daughter Julia is twenty-one. She is graduating from college this May. And has very strong desire to become fully employed and save some money and move out in eighteen months. 28:28 GS: Was it important to you, and is it still important to you now that your children marry Armenians? 28:36 KS: No. because I did not marry an Armenian and my mother did not have a hard time with that. Some of my friends, second generation Americans, actually married immigrants which we lovingly call OTB's, off the boaters and their lives ̶ one, two- I could think of three girlfriends who married men from "the other side" and the other side now could be, you know, Armenians living in Diaspora and Egypt, Israel, variety of places, and those girlfriends, their homes, became Armenian to the second power. Okay, so it was kind of reinforced by marrying somebody from the other side and again the language is heavier use the Armenian language in their homes, and the cultures and the food and what have you. But my mother never put any pressure on me to marry an Armenian. I got married very young, I exposed my children to the Armenian communities. My older daughter actually was probably the most socially involved, through her friends, through both Sunday school and Camp Nubar which still going strong. She did have an Armenian boyfriend for a while, and after they broke up, it is almost like he got the Armenians in the divorce and she kind of pulled away from that group and is now dating somebody who is not Armenian. So, you know, it would be great but ̶ 30:39 GS: So you say it is something you actively want but it is not something you would ever put pressure on. 30:43 KS: Never. 30:43 GS: Okay. What would you identify as your homeland? 30:49 KS: New Jersey. That is where I grew up. 30:54 GS: What are your thoughts about gender roles in society today? 31:02 KS: So, obviously in, you know, lily white two-parent homes, America in 1960, that was a model that my family did not fit. It was very important for my mother. You know. I am a musician but I remember her saying that she wanted me to know how to play the piano so that someday if I needed to work to support myself or my children, I would have a skill that I could do in my home like teaching piano lessons as opposed to her who had to bring labels in to type. Raising my children in an affluent suburban neighborhood, my neighbors are either comprised of stay-at-home mothers with husbands that work or high powered women with big jobs in the city, lawyers, some doctors, bankers which brings lots of money into the house and lots of help, full-time help, live-in nannies. So with me being a school teacher and working outside the home, I really did not really fit the mold where I live. Again what was the question? What are my views? and now it is changing, its changing, the society is changing, everybody is changing not so much in Manhasset, I do not know where the economic bubble was, did not seem to hit here so I see much younger, you know, whole new generation of very young women who do not work and their husbands do the wall street run but I know that when I taught in the public schools they worked. Within my thirty-four years as I started teaching in 1978 there were many women who had children and never came back to work. And I would say in the last ten to twelve years that model really changed. These young women, I call them the young girls at work, having their babies, they are back in, like, eight weeks, babies are in day care so the world really is changing you know. The two parent income model seems to be more of a necessity than it ever was before. 33:46 GS: Do you think it is important for women to stay home with their children after they were born? 33:57 KS: I think it is important. I think people have a strong desire to do whatever it is that is necessary. I had the support of my mother and my stepfather when my children were little. They shared in the daytime care giving. I also was fortunate enough to have a woman, an Armenian, from our church, who was a daytime care giver for the kids. You know, kids do not raise themselves, so, I do not think I could have followed the model of a banker mother who, you know, travelled three days out of the week and left the child home with a sleeping ,live-in nanny. 34:54 GS: What is it about yourself that you might say makes you most Armenian? 35:05 KS: I think it is just, you know, it is just who I am, it is just it is ingrained, it is my church, it is my religion, it is the friends, the people. 35:18 GS: Do you attend church regularly? 35:20 KS: I do not. I play the organ at my church from time to time. Now that I am semi-retired, I do more volunteering at the church and you know, going there and working at the picnic or working at the food fair where women my age, you know, I grew up with and our moms knew one another most of our moms are not with us anymore and there’s just that kind of community and that thread and when I am at church and doing things for the church, I really feel my mother. You know, I am walking her walk, I am doing exactly what she did. 36:14 GS: Have you ever travelled to Armenia or Turkey? 36:18 KS: No. And there is a huge um, since Armenia itself has been liberated from former Soviet Union, there has been a huge travel and tourist industry that has come up in that area most of it in the capital city of Yerevan. There is extreme poverty in Armenia and my Armenian-American friends who have gone say it is nothing like what we think of as Armenian. It is the language, the dialect is different than the Armenian that is spoken in the United States, the foods are a little bit different, the Armenians in Armenia are not very religious or not practicing religious, so what has happened here in America in the one hundred years since the genocide began, I think people who came here from Eastern Turkey, again, religious freedom, was a big thing, and they came here and they established churches, and as a result, community sprung up around those churches. That does not seem to be the case in the land of Armenia and, you know, its everyone’s dirty secret that I am Turkish of Armenian descent, but that is what we were. 37:56 GS: What do you mean by "everyone’s dirty little secret"? 37:58 KS: Well because we would you know the Armenians do not want to associate themselves with the Turkish but our, my grandmother was born in Turkey. My grandfather was born in Turkey. 38:08 GS: Dirty little secret among the Armenian community growing up. 38:11 KS: Yes. 38:12 GS: And this was as distinguished from the rest of the community who saw itself as Armenia? 38:17 KS: We just you know, we are Armenian, that was it, but it was not until like maybe ten or fifteen years ago that we started saying well our ancestors were from Eastern Turkey but again the borders, you know, those borders were changing all the time. 38:36 GS: So it was not as if it was a secret, gossip among the community. 38:42 KS: no, no, no, no, no, no. 38:43 GS: it was within your own family? 38:45 KS: Yeah within the family. 38:46 GS: how important is the preservation of your family's stories, the memories, and their thoughts? 38:51 KS: Well I think the preservation of anybody’s history is very important, and people with ancestory.com and what have you their flocking all over the place now to secure this history and figure out where their ancestors come from. One of the things that has come up in the Armenian community is, it is very hard for first and second generation American-Armenians to trace their roots because there are no records. So it is not like you are going to England and doing historical, ancestral research. My husband's family, the Italian side, he has a cousin who is gone to southern Italy and looked through the baptism records of the church and has traced their family back to the mid-19th century but apparently these Turkey is not so one. It is not so user-friendly, two. These records do not exist, everything was destroyed. 40:10 GS: How do you view a Diaspora? Was it an accident of history or an evil or a good? 40:19 KS: Well, I think the world today is one big diaspora, everyone is everywhere and these borders are really blending when you look at the area of Flushing Queens, New York, where the Mets play and it has been designated the new China town, there are more Chinese and Koreans living in this area than there are in the formerly known China Town in Manhattan, and this area of Flushing was populated by the Dutch in the 1800 and early 1900s and then there was a huge Jewish influx in around world war II, and it remained like that until the (19)80s and those Jewish people kind of aged out and left and the Asians came in and you go down to Flushing there is no English being spoken. So the diaspora it is happening where I grew up in Union City New Jersey, huge influx of Cubans during my childhood, (19)60s, (19)70s and now it is, I do not know the exact number but it is a very, very large percentage. 42:06 GS: Do you think that the Diaspora has its own identity and do you think that the diaspora is a temporary thing, you know, seeking to go back to the homeland or do you think it’s its own entity in and of itself? 42:18 KS: No, I think it is become its own entity in and of itself and you know Armenians are their own worst enemy because I heard in my interview talking about the American-Armenians and the off-the -boaters, and even they do not seem to blend. 42:35 GS: So there is not a single diaspora identity, there are multiple identities within the diaspora? 42:40 KS: Yes. 42:41 GS: Do you think that even despite this separation of identities there is a unity within the diaspora? 42:53 KS: Again we are getting back to the church and the culture and language, so yeah, that unity does exist, and I think because it is a small population, we are nothing next to the Jewish immigrants, we are nothing obviously next to the Asian immigrants, so my husband always said there is an Armenian hiding under every rock. It is not unusual to, so and so went to college in California and her roommate's Armenian. Do you know her? Well, you know it is like literally one to two degrees of separation. You can always draw a straight line between two Armenians, but again I think that is because the community, not the community, the actual numbers are small so. 43:49 GS: Do you think that Armenian organizations within America are attracting the American-born? 44:01 KS: Armenian organizations yeah, I mean, there are so a big movement now is to kind of a habitat for humanity for Armenians, building homes, building schools in Armenia. This building is spearheaded by American groups. It is very popular for families, Armenian-American families to go for instance, like my husband and I would go and bring our three children and we would go for a month and build houses and then do some touring and then come home and do a fundraiser event. That is happening, are people coming here? Are we trying to bring people here? I cannot really answer that, I know for a while it was fairly simple to adopt a child from an Armenian orphanage but it is getting harder politically, I do not really know why, it is not as easy to do that anymore. 45:16 GS: Okay. Would you define yourself as an American, Armenian, American-Armenian, Armenian-American or some other moniker? What do you tell people when they ask you? 45:34 KS: Well, who is asking? 45:36 GS: It depends who asks. 45:37 KS: Right. I mean, if I am in Italy on vacation, somebody says "where are you from?" I am going to say "America". 45:44 GS: So when you are abroad you are an American, but when you are in America what are you? 45:48 KS: But also in Italy which I have been to many, many times, because my husband actually worked there, when the conversation went a little bit beyond into "are you American?" often the Italians would comment on my appearance, you know, dark hair, dark eyes, and I would say I am Armenian amen, amen, amen so they knew, so that, you know. Second question then I would say I am Armenian. Armenians are viewed very favorably all over the world except for ̶ 46:23 GS: How do you define yourself here? 46:26 KS: You know I even tell my students, my college students last year ̶ the Armenian genocide was celebrating, celebrating? Commemorating it is one hundredth year anniversary. There was big to do stand in Washington DC, I took two days off from work to go. And I said to my college students you know going to this thing. I was born in America, but I am Armenian. What is an Armenian? And there it goes. 46:51 GS: So what do you identify as? 46:53 KS: American-Armenian. Answer the question, [laughs] (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karen Ajamian Smaldone https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/390d03b6773b6a0e4c8d22db18d571ee.mp3 55356f433546dedf88be67c7ffbb55a2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 10 June 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Erdem Ilter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karwan Zebari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 57:24 minutes Language English Digital Format Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio audio Biographical Text Born into wars, Karwan didn’t see his father often, since he was working with the government building roads for the army in southern Iraq. Throughout his childhood, Karwan lived in Duhok with his family. In 1990, he, along with his family, fled Iraqi Kurdistan and came to the United States. Karwan is a representative of the Kurdish Regional Government in Washington, D.C. Keywords Kurdish; Kurdistan; Duho; Zakho; Sulaimaniya; Erbil; Everyday life; Food; Kurdish Regional Government; Iraq; Syria; Turkey; Iran; Kuwait; Saddam Hussein; Anfal Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Karwan Zebari Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter and Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 10 June 2013 Interview Setting: Phone Interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 AD: So now it is recording, ok so Karwan why do not just state your full name for us first? 0:13 KZ: Tell me how this is typically done. 0:15 AD: This is how we do it, we start with the full name and then we will just start asking questions. I do need to email you a consent form and you can sign it and email it back to me, and then so we will just ask you questions and then just answer the way you want to, or you will not answer however you want to do it. You are the boss. 0:48 KZ: I have an hour; do you think it is enough? 0:51 AD: Yeah, that will work, that will work for us. 0:55 KZ: My name is Karwan Zebari. 1:13 AD: Okay, and where were you born and when were you born? 1:17 KZ: I was born in the city of Duhok, southern Kurdistan and that’s January 10th, 1983. 1:26 AD: Okay, and uh you lived in Duhok while you were living in Kurdistan? 1:36 KZ: That is right. 1:40 AD: Can you describe for us the environment how it was? Like when you were growing up. 1:46 KZ: I was born and raised in the city of Duhok southern Kurdistan, and I grew up there for about fourteen years, fourteen-fourteen and a half before I had to depart to the United States. The living conditions throughout, so I was born in 1983, I was born into a war. Living under the dictator like Saddam Hussein, he was at war at any given moment you could point to history of his rule. 1980 until 1988 he was at war with Iran. He was also at war; he was always at war with the Kurds. So, I was technically born into two wars: the struggle of the Kurds against Saddam Hussein, and Saddam’s war against Iran. And this year was no different than any previous years if you were to concept. Living conditions, despite the fact there so many wars that Iraq was going through throughout the eighties the living conditions were actually not too bad economically. Now the living conditions for the Kurds were quite different simply because the struggle of the Kurds against Saddam Hussein, he would make cheap deals with the Kurds and then he would break those promises. So I grew up often seeing my father maybe once a year maybe twice a year at that time my father was actually working with department of transportation and they were sent to all the way southern of Iraq to work on massive war projects, making roads, paving ways for the military to cross certain check points and to have access to obviously attach the Iranian troops. 3:35 AD: How was your neighborhood? Like were they all Kurdish or there was some Iraqi you know? 3:43 KZ: In the cities of Duhok, Zakho, Sulaimaniya and Erbil and of course others that located in geographically in northern Iraq or Kurdistan region of Iraq today. They were all Kurds. Hardly had any Arab neighbors. All of my neighbors were Kurds. There were no non-Kurdish neighbors, and so everyone knew each other. If you were not related you were somehow related to some other that they were related to. 4:16 AD: Okay, so you were mainly speaking Kurdish at home obviously, right? And how about school? 4:28 KZ: The language, the native tongue was in Kurdish. Everything was in Kurdish. Most people do not speak Arabic but the school, the material the subject everything was in Arabic. There was no such thing as Kurdish language. As part of Saddam’s ethnic cleansing, he did not recognize that Kurdish existed. He would recognize it when he was weak or when he wanted to negotiate with Kurds. He was recognizing say I will give you this I will give you that and when he would get his strength back and he would break that deal again. But all material in school was in Arabic. The professors and the teachers were all Kurds, but the material actually was all in Arabic. 5:08 AD: So, you were speaking Arabic at school, the curriculum language was Arabic? 5:13 KZ: The curriculum language was Arabic. Now, did we speak Arabic? No. Did we, I mean to this point I do not speak Arabic, but the material was in Arabic, so you had to actually, the teachers had to translate it back to Kurdish and explain it to you in the classroom, but you had to memorize it in Arabic and you had to answer the exam in Arabic. 5:35 AD: Okay, so can you read and understand Arabic now? 5:41 KZ: I can read Arabic, I can partially understand Arabic while I read it, but I cannot speak Arabic because speaking and writing in Arabic are two different things that is why is one of the difficult languages to learn. 5:54 AD: Okay, well we interviewed with some other family members I know you are coming from a very big family, how many siblings do you have in total? 6:10 KZ: I have twelve siblings and plus myself thirteen, so there is thirteen of us and that is very common for Kurdish family to have big families. 6:20 AD: Why is that, why do they have such big families? 6:25 KZ: There are multiple factors, one is a cultural thing. Two it is a religious thing, the prophet Muhammed’s Sunna is to increase the Umma as much as you can, and three there were no birth control, there were no ways to control birth back in the eighties and seventies and early nineties. So that is, there is multiple reasons as to why there are so many big Kurdish families. 6:51 AD: I see. You can jump in at any time if you have questions. 6:47 EI: When did you start school Kak Karwan? 7:00 KZ: Where? Here in the United States? Or back in Kurdistan? 7:03 AD: No, we are in Kurdistan still. 7:06 KZ: So, typical school age throughout the region starts at the age of six. I actually started at the age of six. 7:14 EI: So, the year was 1989, right? 7:16 KZ: Approximately. 7:17 EI: Just after Halabja and probably the uprising? How was that time? I mean do you remember like you were child probably you have heard of it I mean there was something was going on, so can you describe it, how was it, how school was affected, how your family and you were affected? Or did you move to border of Turkey and Iran, just describe for us these two or three years starting from, what you remember actually if it is from your childhood. 8:00 KZ: 1988, (19)89, (19)90, (19)91 are one of the few most difficult years in the Kurds struggle, Kurdish history especially Turmeric, Kurdistan region of Iraq. Obviously 1988, throughout (19)80s from (19)80 until (19)88 you had this Anfal campaign which was an ethnic cleansing again the Kurds by Saddam Hussein. And then in 1988 things get that messy and get that nasty when starts using chemical weapon against the Kurds, starts Bulldozing villages and mobilizing people, not mobilizing, relocating people from different region to different regions to change the demographics of the region, and so a lot of our relatives, I was not personally affected by in Duhok because I lived in the city of Duhok, the city of Duhok was big there was not something that Saddam could come in and bulldoze, however, all of our neighboring villages, because Duhok is a province is have a lot of villages that belong to Duhok, were bulldozed, a lot of people were relocated a lot of relatives that were part of the Duhok province living in the outskirts of Duhok were relocated and moved to places that we could not know or we did not know where they were moved to. A lot of them were sent to the southern part of Iraq or just executed and no one knew what exactly happen to this day. A lot of us do not know what happened to them. So I was young yet I do remember coming home from school every day and my parents are dealing with another crises, there was either a new member, family member, extended family or relatives was discovered dead or a new family member has disappeared and no one know where they were taking or a new village where our relatives or our tribesmen used to live has been bulldozed and we did not know where they had been relocated to. So very-very difficult years and also obviously as part of the chemical bombardment campaign the whole region was affected and it was not just Halabja, it was all across the Iran-Iraq border that chemically bombed. A lot of people migrated to the neighboring Turkey. I was not one of those. I did not travel, or we did not migrate to the neighboring country Turkey or Iran. However, a lot of people did and a lot of my friends today that are here living with me in the country were part of the migration that went to Turkey throughout the (19)80s particularly during 1988. So very-very difficult years I was young but still recall coming home every day to new crises. 19:52 EI: How was school that time, I mean like there was a chaos and war and conflict, but I mean life was continued as I understand, how was it possible? 11:08 KZ: You are right, life continued and so was the school material, the subject very good? No. Psychologically the teachers they were teaching they were also dealing with the crises; they were also dealing with the families and people like they had or losing. And so as a result of that we would get this semester late or the teacher would say okay here is the substitute teacher, work on this, you know just to get us busy to work on something because he would go back to the office and see make some phone calls or find out what happened to some of the people, perhaps some of these colleagues, teachers and administrators that probably lost families. So, it was very weak, it was on and off. We did go to school every day nonetheless but were we learning the material that we should have been learning? Perhaps not. Just because of all the chaos all around. Everyone was affected by the ethnic cleansing that Saddam Hussein carrying out. 12:13 AD: Okay. So, you said you guys did not migrate to Turkey or neighborhood countries like Iran so when the traumatic event took place what did you do? You stayed at home in Duhok, or did you go elsewhere? What did you do? For example, during the first gulf-war, where were you? Were you able to stay there? 12:45 KZ: So, I was referring to 1988, (19)89. This was still the Iraq – Iran and Iraq – Kurdish war. And you fast-forward by a couple years Saddam invade Kuwait after the Iraq-Iran ends in 1988 by the time ended Saddam was in debt by so many billions of dollars and he says well I fought for the Arab world, I fought for Kuwait, I fought Iran for Kuwait, Kuwait has to pay me back. Kuwait said no I do not have to pay you anything back I may give you some money, but I will not pay you. And so, he decides in I think December of (19)90, he decides to invade Kuwait overnight. And so, when that happened obviously the coalition forces give him thirty days to get out of Kuwait. He does not get out and the thirty-four countries of coalition forces start attacking Saddam to drive him out of Kuwait. And so, during this, we are talking (19)90, mid-(19)90 to late (19)90, the coalition forces in Kurds encouraged the Kurds to up-rise in the north and they did the same thing to the Shiite population in the south. And so, we did exactly just that and the coalition forces came. With the aerial bombardment, with the assistance of aerial bombardment we were able to drive Saddam out of the northern part of Iraq and the Shiite did the same. Obviously, the ally forces were bombing from the air. And so, they drive Saddam out after less than few days and plus three weeks. He leaves Kuwait and then they disarm him in the South, in the central of Iraq that is when they give them his weapons back and they withdraw. So, when the allied forces left Saddam had all his weapons back, regained his power and strength. He comes back in brutally massacres the Kurds drive the Kurds out and so same thing with the Shiites in the south. As a result of what had happened few years earlier because of chemical bombardment and ethnic cleansing he had carried out, the Kurds this time were very-very scary, thought, you know we all thought this is going to come and this time finish us with all the chemical weapons they have. And so, my family along with every other family and the whole northern of Kurdistan, northern Iraq migrated to the neighboring countries. This time everyone was affected, everyone. If you were near the Turkey border, you go to Turkey, you migrate to Turkey, or if you were near the Iran you would migrate to Iran, and so as a result of that you had four, four and half million people migrating to the neighboring countries which became a heavy burden on these neighboring countries Turkey and Iran. At the same time the allied forces started thinking what did we just do, we just created the biggest mess. So, I did flee, and this was a cold winter of 1990 that we flew, not flew but depart Kurdistan region, our towns left everything behind and started walking towards the border and eventually made cross the border. 16:08 AD: And how was that? 16:12 EI: Tell us about the situation, I mean do you remember anything you said it was winter. 16:17 KZ: Yeah, it was, I remember very well. My family itself all the kids along with my uncle and my older sister we left the whole city, a day earlier then my parents and the older and the elders and they were, they wanted to get us out as quick as possible, so they catch some other stuff and follow us. And so, we took a tractor trail for us to as far as we could go before, we actually we head to the mountains. There are no good roads at that time; there were no good roads to hit border as q quick as you possible you can through the road. The road would usually take a long way into inside Turkey. So, we started walking and this was a cold winter, December, November, December that year, we have been walking towards the mountains, and the mountains were all snowy, initially there were all tan and snow started coming, hundreds and thousands of people that are walking leaving all such belonging behind just so that they lighten up their way to hit the mountains and to cross the border as quick as possibly they can. So, people left a lot of livestock behind, a lot of goods behind and so we hit the border we go the border and there is a mess. There is hundreds of thousands of people waiting at the border to cross, and some time the Turkish Gendarme would open the border some time they would close it. So, I left very early but those came after us actually the bombs were following them, some of them did not make it, some of them made it. Saddam kept throwing bombs at, they knew people were migrating because he brought heavy artillery to the northern region. And so eventually we make it, eventually we make it cross the border, we stay at the border overnight, the next morning we wake, and they let us in we go cross the border, by then we were very tired, very hungry. We had no money, we had no belongings, and so they direct us toward these makeshift camps, we go there, there is nothing, there is no tents, there were actually some tents that were set up, but no food, no drink, no drinking water or sanitized water. A very difficult situation, as a result of that just the condition on the ground when you were there extremely-extremely difficult, and extremely hazardous, you had mines, land mines on one side especially on the way towards Turkey, we had land mines and sometimes you would see and animal or a cow or a goat that would just start walking on these land-mines and we see everyone getting on the ground, I remember one example, there was a cow, because of the all the number of the people, we had this narrow road, on both sides of the road we have land-mines, one side was Iraq and the other side was Turkey, so in either boarder we saw their all landmines. This cow start walking on the land-mines and everyone hundreds of thousands of people are getting on the ground, if mention of someone takes out a gun and start shooting the cow before it steps on a mine and kills many-many hundreds of people and so this was example of this nature that was difficult that you would never forget. So again, food was scarce, um- 19:56 AD: Were people stepping on any mines and then just dies? Do you remember? 20:06 KZ: I personally did not see anyone, but I did hear stories of that scenario. 20:15 AD: Okay. 20:15 KZ: So, we get there, it is muddy it is cold, it is snowy were on these mountains, hills and the ally forces, eventually, a couple weeks later, eventually arrive with parachutes, they do not arrive, but the cargo plane came in and drop food and sometimes they drop these parachutes on top these tents. I mean a lot of people get hit by it, but then they decided they will drop it out of a place where there is no, they are out of people living in it, and that is how we got our food for three, four months, so we stayed there a lot unfortunately because the lack of medicine, lack of proper drinking or sanitized water or situation, hundreds of people died, as a result of that my younger sister at that time who was perhaps two years old she also lost her life, she had diarrhea and there was no medicine and this was a common problem you wake in the morning and there is dozens of people all around how have got passed away last night and you just go and bury them. So, I mean there is very few families that have lost a member, that have not lost any members if not one or two members of each family. Very difficult situation, very difficult time. 21:40 AD: So, then you went back after that, so when you went back the war was over, right? 21:49 KZ: So, the allied forces in Kurdistan encouraged us, Kurdish in Turkey to go back, we said no, we are not going back, you all remember, you all have seen what he has done to us to years earlier with all these chemical bombardment, then they said what do you want, we said well drive Saddam out of Kurds region and create a safe haven, no fly zone and we will go back. So, Turkey, French, United States, Britain and other allied forces started driving Saddam back in after two and a half months or so, three months, started driving Saddam back, created no fly zone, created this safe haven if you will, and they told us to go back. So, we went back, we went back to what? Ruins! For that two and a half, three months that Saddam was in the area he had destroyed ever bit of piece of land if not, there was of looting, so when we pushed out of the country, pushed out of the northern Iraq, you had other towns like Mosul, Tikrit Baghdad and these areas and they were not affected by this, They were Sunni, they were Arabs, what they have done during our escape during the time when we were away, they came and looted all our houses, all of our properties, and when we came back, there were appliances missing, and there were many different good missing. Everyone that had left anything good behind was actually missing, at the same time he had bulldozed hospital bulldozed schools, bulldozed all these infrastructures that a typical country, a typical city would need to run on. So, we came back to these, to the region eventually and started rebuilding our lives at that time and you would start seeing a lot of non-profit NGOs coming all across the western world to help people, the Kurdistan region and that is when my father had the opportunity work for one of these non-profit organization. 23:50 AD: Okay, so rebuilding your life, so how were things then? Were they better? 24:02 KZ: So, we came back this region and now all a sudden Saddam, the whole country of Iraq, Kurdistan region of Iraq was part of the country obviously was put under a lot of international sanctions; you had UN Sanctions, US sanctions, EU sanctions and many different sanctions, so Iraq was isolated from the rest of the world. You did not have anything good coming in. People started spending whatever they had, after a year or two, the poverty level went high and skyrocketed, and so the situation getting economically, safety-wise it is a lot better, it is a lot better, but economically gets ten time worse because now we have the country that is under the international sanctions, literally nothing coming in or going out. The country’s rich with oil and natural resources, just you cannot get it out because you are under international sanctions. So those four, five years probably was the most difficult that I have seen in my life economically. 25:16 EI: So how was the authority there? There was no Saddam force and, who were there, the governmental building, the bureaucracy how was it working? DO you remember anything? For example, was there any change in school, in language, in security forces? 25:42 KZ: I am glad you asked that Erdem. Of course, there were many changes that took place. You know for the past three decades prior to 1991 you were living under a dictator, you had to obey him, you had to speak his language, you had to do everything that he wished. Now he is no longer in power, and you have this autonomous region created, safe haven protected, no-fly zone protected by the ally forces, and you are an autonomous government, or regional government that was established between the two main political parties and they started governing the region. The school curriculum as you asked was changed from Arabic to Kurdish and English, so they started with first grade. I think it was 1992, 1993, second grade, third grade all the way up until now. Ten years later you have all of K one through one to twelve taught in English, taught in Kurdish pardon me and English and all colleges taught in English and Arabic just because the material in college is not easily translated into Kurdish. So, these are some of the changes that were took place. People all of the sudden were free. There were no longer afraid of any dictators, they were no longer afraid of being bombarded. Although, Saddam did continue to make threating, continue to use his radars or to threat to come to the region, but every time he turned on the radar or made a move the allied forces would bombard hi progress. So, economically things were not very good. It was a dire situation, but freedom, living without fear obviously was a prospect came of out of the first gulf war. 27:42 EI: Okay, like there were any Peshmerga from that time or you said there were two parties started to lead the country, and actually there was a conflict between them and did you affected by that or your family or people? 28:03 KZ: Good question, yes, so the two main political parties tried to form the government, the regional government to stabilize the region, there were elections and there were some problem with these elections as a result of this you had some tensions that started building up and so the patriotic union of Kurdistan which is primarily based on Sulaimaniya area and you have Democratic Party of Kurdistan which primarily based on Duhok and Erbil, tension were started rising, things got nasty, some skirmishing started breaking out and you had a civil war that started within the region from late (19)94 all the way until (19)97 unfortunately a lot of people lost their life, but if you look at the history of any country, or any region you will notice you have gone through that the hump, that check-point if you want to call it. You will go through of some of civil war and eventually you learn your lessons and you start wishing yourself for a better and more effective government. And so, you had that going unfortunately, you had that civil war… 29:27 EI: Like personally how did you, were you affected by it? Did people will discuss about it like what are they doing or what are we doing, for ordinary people, not the party member like how was life for them, I mean all people were not part of the conflict I guess. 29:49 KZ: No, none even was part of the conflict especially if you lived in the city of Duhok, there were hardly any conflict in the city of Duhok, if you lived in the city of Erbil, yes that was the central of the conflict. Everyone, both parties tried to control that was, because it was the capital of the region because it was strategically attempted in the region and it was big, it has a lot to give to any political party that have control on that city, but personally I was not so much affected by it, nonetheless, my uncle was in the artillery team that was fighting this civil war or brotherly as we call it, and so, but not so much, you would not so much affect by it if you lived in the city of Duhok. 30:37 EI: Okay, and your dad was Peshmerga, right? 30:42 KZ: During the (19)90s or prior to (19)90s? 30:46 AD: When, when was he Peshmerga? 30:48 KZ: Everyone was a Peshmerga, on and off, on and off, on and off. My father sometimes a farmer, sometimes he was a Peshmerga, sometimes he was working for department of transportation. 31:04 EI: He was actively in struggle, but in Duhok like not everyone actually I mean everyone like from some other interviews. So how was the life for, what was, just define your relation with your dad, I mean could you see him every day or like he talk about anything or did you ask questions about him like what are you doing? 31:35 AD: Or did he want you to become a Peshmerga when you get older? I mean things like that? Because we will talk to your father too, so we will ask about his impression of his kids, so we want to hear what you thought of him. 31:48 KZ: The problem with our fathers not just my father but all of our fathers we did not see them, you know, I would see our father may be once, if I was lucky, I probably see him twice a year. Like I said, if they were not drafted to army, if you live in a city like we say Duhok or Erbil or Sulaimaniya you would mostly be drafted if you had after the age of eighteen to army. If you did not go to army then you had to escape and become a Peshmerga, or you try to go live in a remote village, but you were still not far enough from Saddam’s troops to come and grab you or take you in capture or take you to the army. So, my father any time he would try to squeeze between the lines he would be Peshmerga, if he was not a Peshmerga then he was working for the department of transportation. You know this department of transportation he was considered working for the government then for example you are going to the army, so he was trying to work between lines he never actually was working or a soldier for the Saddam’s forces. If you got, he was working for government as a transportation employee or construction or as a Peshmerga. 33:07 EI: But they did not know it right? 33:10 KZ: They did not know what? 33:11 EI: That he is Peshmerga. 33:13 KZ: I mean everybody was a Peshmerga in their heart, everybody was supporting Peshmerga, if they know of course they would kill him. 33:20 EI: Yeah, I mean because you are working with government and at the same time you are fighting against them. 33:27 AD: So, you were close to your mother then? 33:31 KZ: My mother was the only parent that was around you every day all the time that you needed help. And this was a typical Kurdish family. 33:40 AD: So, women are strong right? Because it is not an easy job, I am sorry I have a hard time for one child like twelve kids, she must be a very strong woman. 33:53 KZ: They were very-very strong women. They not only managed the family first but they had to keep up with this grieve and sometime hide and keep things inside from telling it to children to affect their children, so what was these women running the family first, there were sometimes tribal out there, dealing with all tragedies, dealing with all you know, not an easy job. So, you considered as a single mum running a huge family. 34:24 AD: Yeah, that must be tough. So, you wanted to say something? 34:28 EI: Yeah, so when it started to become like a little stabilized because still you said there was safety, but economy was terrible when your life changed to better what was the time? 34:51 AD: When things got better? 34:58 EI: The transformation process? 35:01 KZ: So, obviously after we came back to the region from Turkey, so you had all this four to five million people coming back from Turkey and Iran, safety security like I said again was given because with the help of the allied forces and western governments creating safe haven and no-fly zone. We started running our own affairs Kurdistan region of Iraq, safety and security was there, unfortunately economically things were not good. After 1997 you had this oil for food program which was a program to, because of this dire situation throughout Iraq people fall behind, people not having enough food to eat, united nations passed a resolution called oil for food , they would take Saddam’s oil and give food to the people, obviously distributed with the help of the united nations such as UNESCO, on the ground distributing food, you know managing these affairs of distributing food so that they make sure this money or the food is not in Saddam Hussein’s hands, he would sell those foods and buy weapons. So, we get out in late (19)96 and arriving in (19)97, things getting better and improving even economically and if you fast forward by six years or so, 2003 operation Iraqi freedom breaks out, that is when you had again the Kurds upraised along the allied forces and they attacked Saddam further in the north and drove him south and the Shiite in the south did the something and the allied forces came in from all the sides and for once and all block Saddam and captured him. So this is when you had the flood gates opened, the international sanctioned lifted and this was a region that had so many natural resources, so rich just the city of Kirkuk for example having the largest oil reserve than any city or any town or any province in the world and so now we have a lot of international interests of foreign government or foreign companies interested in coming to the region and start investing. This is where was where the pay gets flipped, the Kurdistan region was already a head of the rest of Iraq by thirteen years, obviously (19)90 to 2003. And two years after the war, a year and a half after the war things start, and security situations started deteriorating in the rest of the country in Mosul, Baghdad, Fallujah and Tikrit and the rest of the country unfortunately. So, you see you have this Kurdistan region as a gateway to the rest of the country beacon of democracy, beacon of stability, security prosperity and so people started, the life of people started getting a lot better. So if you fast forward it to today sixty percent of the investment, the relationship with Turkey for example from having (19)99 or even in 2006 and 2007 having 200 thousand troops on the border threatening to invade the Kurdistan region, to today the sixty percent of the investment coming from Turkey and a lot of big giant such as Exxon mobile, Chevron, Total, Gasprom and others coming to the region and investing in the region. Today we are expecting soon Marriot to open up, Hilton, three Hilton, three Marriot and numerous other Euros investments and western investment companies investing in the region. So today the situation is day and night different between Kurdistan region and Iraq, whereas if you compare that to the contrary in 1991 and the eighties you had the Kurdistan region was always on fire always had so many problem and the people being massacred, brutally massacred; today the same exact is happening in the rest of the country yet Kurdistan region is one of the safe havens or the beacon and gateway to the rest of the world and perhaps the model for the rest of the country to go after, so a lot has going on, the situation has gone so much better, a lot of people have cars, a lot of businesses, a lot of rich people now. So, the situation has gone from hundred eighty degrees turn. 39:51 EI: Okay, now I think you came to politics which is good. You are working in Kurdistan regional government in Washington, right? Representation, so what are you doing firstly there, and what is your facilities as Kurdistan regional government, and I will ask the second question, please firstly like define or evaluate Kurds situation in the region, of course first central northern Iraq and the whole region like what do you think in general, your perception and because you are in politics. 40:45 KZ: So, I am the director of congressional and academic affairs, and I am technically, the principle starts for devising, maintain and developing the Kurdistan regional government’s liaison office, which is this office that I work with, representational office in Washington D.C. Our relations with the US based think tank to US congress and such responsibility is include coordinating all relationships with Kurdistan regional government and the US congress for serving as the initial primary contact of our office on congressional increase that provided bias information to other KRG directors such as my colleague on congressional little issues mobilized the Kurdish community in the US to effectively lobby their elected representatives to ensure sustained communication and interaction between the Kurdistan regional government the Kurds in Diaspora and their elected officials. And I also acted as a principle liaison with academic ethnic community. This consist of a lot of research institutions here in town which develop academic initiatives and programs with the US policy makers. I also oversee the initiatives and programs with US universities and other academic institutions nationwide on matters relating to Kurdistan and Kurdish students currently studying on the KRG’s sponsored scholarship and I often attend official meetings, events with US official government officials. Some short-term and long-term goals as obviously recognized what we just talked about, this is the initiative that in fact I am working with, in Fall Halabja genocide we are working on a case to have it recognized by the US congress as a genocide and also to continue to maximize and strengthen the relationship between Kurdistan regional government and the United States government. Some long term aims obviously is to continue to work with such officials particularly the elected officials to make sure that Iraq, Kurdistan region remains on the radar they continue to talk about it, they do not just, especially after they withdrew US troops at the end of 2001, they want to make sure that the US government continues to pays attention to the difficulties and tension and the struggle that is going on inside Iraq obviously, and of course inside Kurdistan region. As far as the role of the Kurds how much really have come from 1991 till where we are today, constitutionally in Iraq the Kurdistan regional government is recognized entity. It is a recognized autonomous region, and they are free legislate and act as an entity yet as a part of a federal democratic and pluralistic Iraq. And that is all we strived and struggled for. As far as the rule of the Kurds within Iraq and you can see the Kurds have been a king makers, had a major or an important role inside Iraq, you saw Maliki obviously coming to the region yesterday or the day before, prime Minister Maliki of federal Iraq and hoping to fix some of the issues that is facing of course, you have the Sunni uprising and insurgency, you have the Kurds that are not happy with prime Minister Maliki because of all the dispute over oil and other oil revenues and of course even within his own block, within Maliki’s block there are some Shiites that are not very happy with him. So, that is Iraq if you were to look at Syria, you have Syria that is on fire today as of June10th 2013 Syria is on fire and it does not seem to be any peaceful resolution inside or ending inside. And the Kurds again are going to be a major player in that region. And you have also the positive development within Turkey. In Turkey having anywhere between 18 to 20 some million Kurds officially with the peace process, the ceasefire between Turkey and the Kurdistan Workers Party that is based a lot of it based in Qandil mountain which is part of Kurdistan Iraq, Iran, Turkey borders. So, these are positive developments luckily this time everything was publicly, transparently you know Prime Minister Erdogan has made some positive change steps and so as the PKK, so these are positive developments. Now, if you were to look at Iran as another case where just the matter of time before it boils over and if there was to happen again you have a good numbers of the Kurds that could play a role inside the region. So, there is a lot of changes in the region especially over the last three, four years where the Arab spring and uprising and in a lot of these countries you have Kurdish population in existence residing inside these countries, they will continue play a permanent and significant role in this region. 46:32 EI: Okay, so you are hopeful for the future? 46:36 KZ: I think if you ask me what the role of the Kurds would be perhaps in the future, personally I think nature has the way of cycling itself every hundred years, and if you were to go back hundred years ago the changes, some of the developments that took place in the region were not of the benefit to the Kurds I think this time, hundred years later again this 1914 today took almost 2014 the Kurds are in better position we play an active role in the region, we understand the region better, we have learned from our mistakes I think the future will better for the Kurds this time around. 47:21 EI: Okay, what about Kurds-US relations are you happy with it or not because I know that US criticized Turkey because Turkey has a trade agreement with Kurdistan regional government without approval of central government, so what do you think about that? 47:56 KZ: The relationship with the US government, we have a very good and a mutual relationship with the US government, just because of our obviously interest who insight together very well. For example, we assisted US troops in 1991 to topple Saddam which you know the allied forces stop at a certain point. And again, we assisted the US troops in 2003 to obviously topple him once and for all. And we cooperate on security matters, intelligence matters quite a bit, and we have obviously we are the US allies’ friends in the region when you have obviously all around us besides Turkey, Turkey being an exception that are not very friend or not very much in favor of the US government. So, we have a very good working relationship with both the US, legislative branch and executive branch. Obviously, we do have our differences, sometimes things that the US asks of the Kurds are not in the interests of the Kurds to do, and the same thing happens with Turkey. Look Kurdistan regional government and Turkey have good and excellent relationships today. These are based on mutual relationships such economic interests, Kurdistan region is a new and emerging market it has a lot of natural resources and has a lot of oil, has a lot of natural gas, and Turkey as a hub, and Turkey has a demand. So, it is demand and supply, we have the supply, Turkey has the demand. And so of course the United States would say look make this a three-way mutual interest. Work with Baghdad, KRG or Erbil and Ankara. But for years the Kurds as well as tried to work with Baghdad but Baghdad unfortunately was facing so many other challenges, so just security challenges, we both had to move on to plan B, and plan B was okay, Turkey-KRG relations and so we had to move forward on that. Yes, the US government would ask to work with the Federal government, and we say great, as long as the federal government is working within Federal pluralistic and democratic, and within the federal government of the Iraqi constitution we would be willing to work with that and we meant to be part of Iraq, we are not by no means are good relations with Turkey are to threaten the integrity of Iraq, no we are not looking for independence but we are looking for a way to move forward and Turkey is the way to move forward. EI: Okay, so what is the best and worst scenario for Kurdistan regional government and Kurds for you? KZ: I think at the moment it is difficult to imagine what could happen tomorrow let alone what will happen a year or two, three years from today. The best case scenario is if Iraq improved, the relationship between Iraq, Turkey and KRG improved and these mutual interest, the relationships obviously, Iran comes to negotiating with the western and other united nations national assembles, say look I am willing to let go of these nuclear weapons, I am willing to come back to the negotiating table and become part of this region, that would open up another gateway for the Kurdistan region to import and export. Iraq situation, security situation improves and that could be the gateway too to the sea. And so, as well as Syria-Syria is another problem, you know the best-case scenario is having a stable neighbor that are now threatening Kurdistan region where you can import and export and trade all and everyone. Worst case scenario is what is going on unfortunately what seems to be turning Iraq Security situations deteriorating, Syria’s security situations is a mess today, Iran is not willing to negotiate with anyone, and the only thing is Turkey and God forbid if something happens in Turkey such as seeing some of these protest thing start deteriorating in Turkey, you know this peace process between Kurdistan Workers Party and Turkey deteriorates, you know we can go back to nineties and early 2000s when Turkey started threatening to come to the region, and once again the Kurds would be isolated and there would be no way to import-export and trade anyone outside of the region. So, this would not be a good case scenario, the best-case scenario is to have all the neighbors, all mutual neighbors. And worst-case scenario obviously all the neighbors on fire. 53:22 EI: Okay, I mean the situation depends on the neighbors mostly and their attitude or their situation. Okay, if you want to ask something? 53:39 AD: I want to ask, I want to finish your personal, not politics. So, you prefer to live in the US right now? Or do you miss living in Kurdistan? 53:56 KZ: Do I miss? We all miss living in Kurdistan, as someone who works for the government, Kurdistan regional government, I am a frequent traveler, visitor to Kurdistan region, I go there three-four time a year we spent a couple weeks on the ground every time. So, I do quite miss it. Do I want to move back? I am looking if the right opportunity strikes, the right job strikes I absolutely move back, I think you started seen a lot of people started to move back because of all these, because of the economic prosperity, security situation and they see in a little time they probably are better off in the region is new and emerging where you can make out something of yourself where is if you, you know the economy is growing by double digit, if you look at US economy is hardly growing at all if not diminishing, 54:58 AD: So, you are kind of Americanized here, no? 55:02 KZ: Look I have been here, I have spent exactly half of my life in the states and half of my life in Kurdistan, so I can move back and forth, I speak the language fluently, I do not have any problem, I can move either way, I can ship either way, I do not see would that be a problem, no. I can understand those younger generation, they were two or three year or they were born here and they have never lived in Kurdistan, I can see it is difficult for them, but because I have spent half of my life there and half of my life here I can see living in either place okay, just okay. 55:37 AD: Just, okay? 55:39 KZ: Well, I mean either way I will be okay. 55:41 AD: You will be okay. All right then. 55:44 EI: Thank you so much, do you want to add something or? 55:48 KZ: No, I think we have covered it pretty good; I am unfortunately I am not sixty years over that I can share with you all this which and struggles- 55:58 EI: I mean all experiences are valuable because your age is like, you are child and you can evaluate from a child perspective so your mum can evaluate from a mum’s perspective, your dad is different, I mean they are all valuable, so do not worry about it. 56:16 AD: And trust me, your story is really different than what your mum told me. So, everybody has a different perspective although you are from the same family, so everyone brings their own opinion like how they view those situations. You see what I mean, like the things she remembers, what affected her most is different than what affected you. So, that is why that is really nice to see everyone’s opinion. 56:49 KZ: Sure, and you know if you guys need anything, sorry it took so long to find sometime- 56:55 AD: No, that is fine, that is fine. 56:58 KZ: Let us know, especially as you start expanding your wings and get out of the town and go to other communities, we have a director— 57:06 AD: Yes, we will do that but really want to finish this town, but Avras sent me an email this morning, we can close that. 57:15 EI: Yeah, the interview is over now, thank you again. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karwan Zebari Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/29e7ad8258fcc20398f02778f648bd2e.mp3 e0645c01181f6d932febc65af09bdb60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2 December 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kasar Abdulla Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 63:06 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio audio Biographical Text Born in the Barwari Area in northern Kurdistan, Kasar and her family lived through harsh times during Saddam’s ethnic cleansing campaign. She and her family made it to Nashville, TN, and were able to work and intergrade within the society while preserving their Kurdish cultural identity alongside other Kurdish families in Nashville. Kasar and her siblings received college degrees in various fields and continue to live in Nashville with their families. Keywords Kurdistan; Kurdish; Anfal; Conflict; Iraq; Barwari; Duhok; Refugee; Turkey; Fargo; Nashville; Family; Everyday life; Saddam Hussein Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Kasar Abdulla Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 2 December 2016 Interview Setting: via Skype -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 AD: Hello, 0:09 KA: How are you? 0:10 AD: Good! How about you? Can you hear me Kasar? Hello Kasar? 0:31 KA: Hello, 0:31 AD: Hi, can you hear me? 0:33 KA: Yeah, sorry I have a little bit of bad connection, so let me go to another space. 0:38 AD: Okay, sure, sure. 01:14 KA: Hello, can you hear me now? 01:15 AD: Yes, yes, I hear you well. 01:18 KA: All right. 01:20 AD: Yes. [laughs] 01:22 KA: How are you? 01:24 AD: I am good. How about you? 01:26 KA: I am good, thank you. You cannot complain, you know it is December and in Tennessee it is really beautiful weather. 01:32 AD: Oh, that is beautiful. And Kasar- first of all thank you so much for agreeing to interview with me today. Unfortunately, Marwan is very sick, and he never gets sick. He has been sick since Wednesday. So, he will not be with us. Yeah, and he has a little one too, I hope she is doing fine. So that is why it is just me today. 02:06 KA: No problem. 02:07 AD: Okay, great. So, what we need to do is I sent you the information little bit like the questions I am going to ask about. So where were you born Kasar? Can you tell me? 02:21 KA: Sure, I was born in Kurdistan of Iraq. So, northern Iraq in a village out in the Barwari area. So, I am Barwari, a Barwari tribe. I do not know how details- 02:44 AD: I know, I know. Two, three years ago I did not know, now I know so much about it. So, which city Barwari tribe is close to for the record? 02:57 KA: Duhok. So, my family is from the Duhok Province, yeah. 03:01 AD: So, and how long did you live in Iraqi Kurdistan? 03:09 KA: I was born in 1981, December of 1981 and then in 1988 of September we fled. So, I was about six years old, we fled. We left when the war broke out in 1988 where George Bush, the father was the president and Saddam Hussein at that time. And so, my family got caught up in war, so we left for Turkey which is the neighboring country and lived there in a refugee camp. 03:41 AD: Where did you stay in Turkey? Mardin? 03:43 KA: Mardin, yeah. Can you move a little so I could see your face too? 03:48 AD: Oh, can you see my face now? 03:52 KA: There you go, I can see you- 03:55 AD: All right, okay, so you still remember some details from hometown, right? 04:07 KA: Oh, yeah. 04:08 AD: So- go ahead please. 04:13 KA: So, of course the war itself was very memorable. I mean very graphic, you know I was six years old, in December, in a few months I would have been seven years old when we left, and so the memories are very vivid. They are right there. Also, I remember my sort of home before running away. I mean I can remember you know when my grandmother always going right by the Springwater. And she used to pray and meditate, and I used to pick berries [laughs] I would go to pray with her, I would pick berries, and so as they were picking up raspberries and you know really having a good time. I also remember it was a very exciting year for me I was supposed to start kindergarten that year which I never started, but I remember being so excited, you know asking for my backpack, you know I wanted books, I wanted pencils. Now, both my parents were agriculture villagers, so they did not live quite in the city when we left, they were farmers. So, it was an interesting year in that sense. I remember Kurdistan being very beautiful like I remember the seasons, you know it was beautiful in that sense and I also remember how, you know, this beauty turned into ugliness and darkness at such a young age, and I feel like my childhood was ripped off of me where I should have been learning ABCs and 1,2,3s I was running for my life. So, I do remember that very well. I remember the day it happened very well. I can describe it in detail. I could not tell you like for example what month it was, later on I found out like the year we left but I remember the actual day when it took place. 05:58 AD: Because it is such a dramatic event that imbedded in your memory I can imagine. So, when you left home, did you guys have a vehicle to go to Turkey or did you just walk? 06:18 KA: So, no we basically just walked. Someone came knocking on the door, who was a Kurdish Peshmerga actually who I think he was the only one left in his force and so he decided to warn as many villagers as possible to flee and seek safety to just basically, just keep running and do not look back. As I remember, you know, someone knocked on the door really loud out and my mother gets up to open the door, it was around dawn time, you know it scared us, we all woke up, you know the house pretty much all sleeping sort of like camping style on the floor with a Kurdish döşek [mattress], it was not like everybody had their private room per se- 07:01 AD: Of course. 07:02 KA: So, you know, my mother was pregnant at that time, and she was home with us, and my dad was not at that time, but my grandmother was. So, my mother just thought this is very typical, you know, we run to the mountains, we seek shelters up there, or to underground bunkers until the war is over and we come back out. Unfortunately, the Peshmerga was like, no, no, no you gotta run and you cannot look back. And so, my mother tells my grandmother” Why do not you take the kids, and you go up to the mountains and I will meet you after.” She was pregnant and she also thought I am going to gather some food and just catch up with you guys. And so, we left. And my mother stayed because she also wanted to inform my father. She thought he is going to come back and not find any of us. She wanted- you know, there were no cellphones at that time- 07:49 AD: Of course, not- 07:49 KA: Or emails right. So, she basically- what happened is we went up to the mountains I remember walking and walking because so exhausted and tired, when we got closer to the mountains it was freezing, it was cold. We head out in the mountains for a while then my mother caught up with us, my father came and said we have to continue moving. Everyone has gone in the village. And in that time, we kept walking and walking I remember like being really tiring experience, like it never stopped. We were very hungry. It took us three days and nights to cross the mountains that divide Kurdistan of Turkey and Kurdistan of Iraq. And in that process we stopped and my father wanted to search for his brother where we found out his older brother his wife and his elder son all of them died of the chemical attacks and so we ended up staying- the rest of the crowd actually left us but my parents, we said we need to give them appropriate burial and so my parents buried them in the mountains right now to their graves in the mountains and then we packed up and left and so their children did not want to leave. They became orphans and umm- [cries] 09:21 AD: Oh- 09:22 KA: Sorry- 09:23 AD: No, please take your time Kasar- 09:30 KA: Um, and so my parents you know became guardians to them. It was a tough experience- 09:30 AD: Of course. 09:40 KA: But we had to keep going, I mean there was no way we could stay. There was no way we could return. We just knew one way, one direction and had to keep going. I remember us we were like walking towards Turkey. We could hear like the Baath party actually catching up to us and I remember you know kids screaming and crying and mothers putting their hands over their mouth just so they will not make noise- 10:11 AD: Oh, my God. 10:12 KA: And we do not get detected [sniffling]. And actually remember that they did find us like the Baath party, and one of the soldiers even he looked like he was a commander in chief or some kind of person who can give commands and he got out and he saw us in the bushes, I can remember very well like just looking at his face and then he ordered the troops to get back in and leave like he did not see anything. And they could have chosen basically to kill all of us. And that was it, but I do not know it was a miracle I guess from God- 10:53 AD: He was a human being I guess right, yeah. KA: So, I guess it was mostly kids and you know women and unarmed men, so we got saved in that sense. And I remember when we got to the Turkish border, Turkey did not let us in, they did not enter, they refused to let us in. It was more than a month we were really in the area where nothing really lived and no one lived it was in between Iraq and Turkey, but the Turkey kind of controlled it. It was the border, but they would not let us enter any further. But then through the United Nations talks and Kurdish leaders and so forth they were definitely negotiation processes taking place and they allowed us to go to Mardin. And when we went there nothing was actually set up, but they began after we went there set up tents and then also barbed wires and soldiers around us. As I lived there for four years, my elementary life was in the camp. I have both pleasant experiences, you know, not so pleasant experiences. It was interesting of the first year I think most of us thought we are going back, you know, to Kurdistan so we were just there temporarily, but after the first year we found out it looks like we going to be there maybe infinitely not knowing if we will ever return and so the group that fled a large group of them were really, you know, agricultural, you know, they had agricultural expertise, they were also entrepreneurs so they began to you know build like half walls underneath a tent so only the top of the tent were cloth or tent material just to help because the winters were so harsh and the summers were really harsh and so you had harshness of both weathers. I remember from there you know my mother and my parents were saying we do not want to lost generation looking at the kids and other parents started to talk, and they began to really organize among themselves and started Kurdish schools that was really illegal in Turkey- 13:15 AD: Oh, yeah, I know. 13:18 KA: Tents- you know they began when my parents put me in school and so secretly under a tent, we were being taught the Kurdish language and we were taught math and science. Of course, there was not much to teach with and so my mother, I remember her she used to take, you know like tomato cans, and she would take off the label and that was our paper to use. We would use to write on, and she would collect it for us. You know, I remember going out on field trips with our teachers and we would dig up the earth to get different colors of the earth to make clays and make chalks out of it and they used it as chalk. So, these were some memories that- and I was very fortunate, and I was so blessed and excited about those teachers because I felt like if they did not keep us busy with something hopeful, positive I would have been not in the mental state I am right now. So, it kept me busy in that sense. I fell in love with just education. My parents particularly my mother’s drive of wanting to no matter how hard life was she would walk me in the actual camp for long time just to get to the tent that was designated as a school, and so she was on top of it. She had like seven of us, seven children, you know she was adamant making sure we were there. When we got to Turkey, she ended up delivering her baby and it almost cost her, her life and we definitely lost my brother as well in that process. I mean she had smelled chemical that were used on us, the Mustard gas. She went without food, no nutrition for so long and then of course there was not the adequate medical care when she went into delivery. She had passed out. We actually thought both of them were gone. We were getting ready for funeral and burial, and you know, I guess it looked like she had fainted and did not really pass away all the way. She came back to life whereas my brother did not make it. So, we buried him in the camp. And that- so this was basically childhood, but I also remember on the other side you know innovating and making my own dulls out of sticks, you know, that was my dolls I used play with. I remember taking the top of the coke bottles, you know the glass one, and I used to make cars with it, and you know start racing with my brother, you know my older brother made me a sling shot and he said you use it if any soldier comes close to you. And I remember teaching me how to use it. And so, you know, these were something that really just kept me going and motivating. So from 1988 till 1992 I was living in those conditions and in 1992 you know we were among the very few lucky families that was selected to go through the Refugee Resettlement Program through the UN and then the United States actually sponsored us but they took our family to Fargo, North Dakota which was very strange out of fifty states you know they put us in the snow and it was really hard any wherefrom minus. It was difficult for them to find jobs I mean both of them were illiterate, never went to school. So, they did the very basic cleaning jobs to survive and after living there from 1992 to 1996 we left Fargo, North Dakota and we came all the way to Nashville, Tennessee because there was already an established Kurdish community here. There was a Kurdish Mosque here which a lot of my parent’s generation just really find it as a social space. They go there quite often and just hang out and you know eat together, have meals and it is really like a social atmosphere for them that they go to… they were able to find a lot of I guess commonalities in Tennessee, for example Tennessee is also an agricultural state and you know Kurdish people began to grow pomegranates and gig trees and you know it really reminded them of Kurdistan, I mean you know, bringing like Rehan, the Kurdish basil growing it, and so they became very excited that they could bring a little bit of Kurdistan here. They began to you know share the seedlings with each other, you know, one hose would pomegranate trees and give the seedling to the next and the next and the next before you know everyone has a pomegranate tree- 18:14 AD: That is great- 18:16 KA: And figs the same way which he just saw a sense of community in that generation Kurdish people in Nashville in particular became quite very, extremely hard-working people. So, they came, and they were in extreme poverty but many of us held multiple jobs so we can get out of poverty and become home owners for example and just working class. So, you go to find diversity in the Kurdish community here in Nashville, you have where from like higher socio-economic status to very low socio-economic status, the variety of them. But the Kurdish community in general to the United States came in different waves. So, the first wave in Tennessee, for example was 1970s, I think it was 1973 where some of them came as students went in to seek education and then they ended up staying here establishing themselves and then the first big wave after the student wave came from the refugees from different camps in Turkey and that was 1990 and up. And so, from 1990, 91, 92 there was a huge wave and then in 1996 another wave came from Guam but that was the civic leaders of professionals who worked with the United States or did some kind of you know relationship with the US, so they came as asylees whereas the previous ones in the 1990s early 1990s came as refugees. And also, you had the earliest ones coming here, students and then you had a huge wave of refugees and then you had asylees that came and sort of established themselves here. 20:03 AD: So, can I ask you this Nashville who are the first comers, those students, did not they go back when they finished the degrees here? 20:19 KA: Some of them did, only a few stayed. I mean a handful maybe 9, 10 of them or so. They stayed here and these are for example if you are interested you can speak to one of them his name is Ghandi, Kirmanji Ghandi, he is a professor of Antique in Tennessee State university- 20:36 AD: Oh, I would love to hear. 20:38 KA: Sure, I can connect you- 20:40 AD: Can you connect me, I would love to talk to more people, like I was going to ask you at the end, you know? 20:50 KA: I would recommend speaking with him just to get the earlier sense; I would also recommend speaking with Salah Osman who is the leader at Salahaddin Center, which is the, actually the only Kurdish Mosque outside of Kurdistan- 21:14 AD: Oh, really? 21:15 KA: Yeah, and so they give sermons in Kurdish. There is a whole lot of keeping the Kurdish identity here as well. So, he, yeah, I would recommend him as well. 21:21 AD: So, professor Ghandi is in which University you said? 21:27 KA: Tennessee State University. 21:28 AD: Tennessee State, okay. So, who started the Kurdish community in Nashville area? Are those students or like the group- 21:43 KA: It was the 1990 group that came- 21:47 AD: The refugees- 21:49 KA: The students are very assimilated, you know, into Nashville but the families that came in 1990, they were more interested in integration than assimilation and because they were interested in integration, they wanted to keep of some of their culture, so for example, we began to open up bakery stores and we make Kurdish Naan, which is Kurdish bakery, I mean bread to Kurdish spices. We import Kurdish spices from all the way in Kurdistan through Turkey and so we kept some of the Kurdish culture here- but it was 1990s crowd and 1996 in particular as well that you know how helped. So now you find Kurdish people in various fields, many of them became entrepreneurs. If you look at this one neighborhood, I actually call it little Kurdistan, USA- We began to take that tag and really make it known. It does feel like little Kurdistan if you come to Nashville and you drive down on those roads you going to run into like old Kurdish men in Kurdish clothing, [laughs], all the ladies taking a walk you know in that area to you going to smell the Kurdish bread- 23:04 AD: Which is delicious- 23:05 KA: Yeah, and so you know, there were some entrepreneurs, others got into health care sector, you know, others, those of us some of us gone to education filed. So, for example two of my sisters are public school teachers, you know I am one of nine siblings, each of us have gone into a different direction, you know like two in health care, whereas another brother is an entrepreneur and has his business going on, is just like rapidly all over the place going on. Yeah. 23:42 AD: So, you have totally of nine siblings? 23:49 KA: Yeah. 23:50 AD: And you all went to college and got a professional position, you know you had all degrees? Yes? 24:00 KA: The girls are smarter than the boys- [laughs] we have all got like sort of master level degrees- while the brothers went straight into technical schools, or just graduated except one of them, he went to the university, he studied criminal justice. 24:18 AD: I see, I see. And those babies are your children, right? 24:26 KA: Pretty much honestly. I am the third oldest, so I have an older brother and an older sister and there is me. So, the rest of them are actually young and I remember taking total guardianship of them including being really active in their schools: Every time there was a parent-teacher conference, I was there, you know, with them, you know and I pushed and signed up my younger particularly siblings into extra-curricular activities and I remember just signing up as their parents [laughs] because my parents you know, I’ll give you an example of my father just felt like soccer is just waste of time, and I am like no in America, you know, soccer can be something, good or beneficial but also it keeps young boys and girls off the streets- 25:13 AD: Absolutely- 25:13 KA: Because I went to the school system here, I mean I went from middle school to high school to undergraduate and graduate, I became aware, and I understood the society in a different way than my father did. And so, I felt like my father even though he had the love, but I felt he did not have quite the wisdom of how to raise kids in the United States because he was distant from you know what is really happening on the streets for example. 25:43 AD: Yeah, so you had the family in that regard because you experience on your own, right? 25:52 KA: Yeah, absolutely. I also, I remember in an amount of few months my father began to relay on me to be his personal interpreter and translator, you know. I remember being frustrated with them because he would come in take me out of school to go to his doctor appointment, for my mom’s doctor appointment and I would get upset because it was difficult for me, is just not missing that particular lesson, like you already trying- you are behind, I came in behind right, because I missed elementary school and they put me in the 4th grade, begin the 5th grade. So, I was already missing all the four years. So, I am playing catch up already and every time I would miss a class I missed so much. And so, I used to get frustrated with them. And sort of pushed back on him but them immediately I realized this was a life, you know, and I am asked to do an adult responsibility. I mean I remember learning how to write checks at the age of nine because I was helping my dad to write checks. 26:48 AD: That is right- 26:49 KA: You know for the bills because he needed help. I began working actually if you take back, I was working in the refugee camp- 26:58 AD: In Turkey? 26:59 KA: Where my mother was- yes. My mother was very gifted and talented with crafts, and so we would get a potato sac and of course you would eat the potatoes, but she would undo the sac and she would make really creative purses or other beautiful artifacts and we would take it. And she started teaching us these skills anywhere from crocheting to making all sort of things. So, we began to work after school we would come back and my mother would have us working and then my father would collect and my brother, the oldest brother would collect we just made and take it and sell it to the Turkish people and sometimes in exchange for many but also food or hygiene products and then we sort of established ourselves that way. I remember making really creative things with beads anywhere from earrings to necklaces and you know selling it to the Turkish people. 27:57 AD: That is wonderful. 27:57 KA: So, when we came to the United States as well and I remember I was thirteen years old and my father kept taking me to local groceries and asking the managers to hire me and he would brag about me and he was like she is really a good hard worker, she learns really quickly and the manager was like I will get arrested if I hire her, she is a minor and my dad was like no, no, she is the minor but she has the mind of an adult and so, we really needed it. The family needed it and so when I was fifteen years old, I began to work full time actually between two different jobs because of course the business I was working for could not give me forty hours because of the- 28:36 AD: Your age- 28:36 KA: -child labor law- I would do two part time jobs then I would go to school. So, throughout high school, college, undergraduate and graduate I was working, you know. When I became eighteen years old, I began to work in factories, you know, for Dell company, I was building laptops and then I went to Dina Corporation and I was building Car products, you know, I was making parts for cars. You know I learnt a whole lot in the process. Now I know how to take my laptop apart and put it back together- 29:10 AD: Oh My God, yeah- 29;11 KA: But it was very difficult, honestly I did not, I feel like I did not get everything I wanted to get at the college experience and, you know, I could not stay after and get active in some of the college campus activities because I was so busy had to go to class and go straight to work and come back get five hours of sleep and repeat, you know, but I did win when I was an undergraduate at Tennessee State University, I changed my major from biology to sociology, my father really wanted me to be an attorney or a doctor. So, I did not want to break his heart, I went to biology route to go to medical school, but it just did not- I feel like it did not freeze me- the more I studied was fascinated with the medical world. It just did not- you know I shadowed and went to the hospitals, and I became more distant from there. I was very curious about human behavior, I just really wanted to study sociology and human behavior and of course sociology is the unstudied field in Kurdistan and the Kurdish culture, you know, so it was making a statement to my father that sociology is good. He could not get, you know, he first thought the two Ologies end up with the doctor anyway, biology and sociology there is no difference- So I let him have it for a while until I graduated from college and after I graduated, I said look dad I am not going to medical school. And I remember he cried. He looked at me. He said I ruined my life, you know, he was, he said I ruined my life and I ruined the whole families life because he was really hoping for me to have the prosperous profession that could easily transfer anywhere in the world because constantly they have the concept that we might end up leaving America as well. You know, they felt that way. The Kurdish people felt that there is no safe haven for Kurdish people- 31:08 AD: Well, naturally. 31:10 KA: And right? 31:11 AD: That is right. 31:12 KA: So, I ended up showing him where I was coming from so, I pushed him back on- there is a very famous quote which I actually, one of the Muslim leaders Ali said, he said “Do not push your children to be like you because they were created for a time different than yours.” 31:31 AD: That is a good one. I hope my daughter will not hear that because I do the same thing Kasar. I push her to be a doctor. [laughs] 31:40 KA: Yeah. And it is honestly if you look at it you want what is best for your child. It makes sense and any doctor they have their success rate is pretty high, and so it makes sense like if you truly do want what is best for your child, you go to pick the best career right? But then we are also all not made to be going to the same filed. There is like that passion and there is let us do what I need to do to live and survive right? So, I was more driven by my passion and so I switched it and changed it and of course broke his heart and he was like what are you going to do with sociology, you know. Who cares about the way people think social movement and social institutions, you know? I was like but I do. I want to know why human beings behave in a certain way. I want to know why we create culture norms that set us back and I want to challenge that, and you know challenge public policy- 32:36 AD: And why people are being killed, being for being Turks right? 32:42 KA: Exactly. Yeah, why? Yeah, I wanted to know the human mind- 32:48 AD: Absolutely. I have to turn off that. Okay. 32:52 KA: Okay. Right after that, of course 9/11 happened. And I was in the graduate school and when 9/11 happened honestly was an opportunity for me to put my love and passion to work and I did, I immediately I ran to be the Muslim student association, the MSA president and I won, and I was the first female to sort of be in leadership of so called a Muslim organization, 33:28 AD: Wonderful! 33:28 KA: So, I began to break those gender barriers but also cultural and faith barrier. I began to host dialogues and community conversations around what happened. Because I notices that the incident started to divide us and it just hurt me the most because when it happened here I am just ran away from a terrorist who terrorized my life Saddam Hussein and I came to a peaceful life and I was being called a terrorist and you know, and also at that time you never call a Kurdish people, a Kurdish person an Arab [laugh] Right, you just called me by my enemy and so I noticed that was on campus creating division and then in the Nashville community in Tennessee of course quite conservative as well. And so, I began to organize, and I brought the community together for more of a dialogue and a conversation than a presentation and I say that it was very effective and so right after graduation and went to work at Tennessee Immigrants’ Rights and Coalition where I did public policy and integration that was focused on new Americans so both refugees and immigrants. 34:42 AD: I see, I see. So, let me ask you this; did your father working in the United States? You mentioned in Fargo right, your mom and your father, right? 35:00 KA: Yeah, my father, of course refugee’s services expire within six months, you have to get a job and kind of be independent of those services. So, my mother went straight in to basically cleaning services; cleaning hotels and my father did the same thing. He was a janitor for a church. Then he became physically disabled because of- he had a car accident in Kurdistan, but it resulted in like longer term health problems here when we had the surgery in North Dakota for him. He could not walk anymore and then his ribs were broken and that. So, he had a lot of physical disabilities which left him to be the mom and then my mom to be the dad in those cultural norms, I guess. As always so my mother even in the refugee camp constantly like helping financially like outside the house and then inside the house. So, I was sort of trained that way as well. I think my mother had a good sort of influence on me, pushing me to be independent thinker, be independent women in all aspects. So, either it be the way I think, or the way when it comes to financial means. She did that a lot with all, she had five daughters and four boys, and she was more strict on the daughters than she was on the boys when it came to education. Even if I got up and said mom, I am sick, she was like you are still going, she was like you are breathing and you are walking, you are going to school. [laughs] I appreciate that, I think I just after becoming adult myself and having three daughters on my own I am like mom, you are illiterate woman, but you have so much wisdom by pushing, and she used to say I do not want to be death and mute I do not want you to be blind like me. And so, she was like I want you to know how to survive in the world right now requires the knowledge of a pen and I want you to know that. 36:55 AD: Yeah, no I agree. I think your mother was a very strong woman like really influenced you. Your role model probably, right? 37;08 KA: Absolutely, and after we came from North Dakota to Nashville, Tennessee she also was working in factories. She was not building appliances. You know she kept a full-time job but she would also take care of my father and the children as well. I mean in my eyes she was a superwoman. You know I have three of my own and I was really only planning for two, the third one just surprised me, and I am like mom I do not know how you did it [laughs]. 37:36 AD: Yeah, it is not easy. So, you said you were the third kid like age-wise, everybody, you like have older brother, two brothers? 37:52 KA: My old, the oldest sibling is the sister, and then I have a brother and then it is me. So, my oldest sister also has her masters, she has her bachelor’s in computers sciences, master’s in education, she is a public-school teacher. My older brother, he is right now suffering. He went with the United States Army to be an interpreter and translator. So, he went there he came back and suffered from a lot of post-traumatic stress disorder- 38:25 AD: Oh My God! 38:25 KA: He felt like this is the way I can go back instead of liberating Iraq and Kurdistan in particular you know of course fight Saddam Hussein back for what he did and then also appreciate the United States by providing my linguistic and cultural expertise, but he is served with the special forces then he came back really a changed man and made him incapable of living his life in a normal way. So, he is right now at his home. He has married and has children, but he is not capable of being productive outside the home which is really difficult. 39:01 AD: Oh, that is unfortunate. 39:02 KA: Because it is tough. I can now relate to what military families are going through in general everyone is coming back and suffering from this mental disease and it is difficult you know, and I feel like mental illnesses are even worse than physical illnesses- 39:19 AD: Absolutely. 39:22 KA: Because physical you know there is a way to go about it but mental illness, I guess is just like is you are sort of dead but a live in that sense- 39:30 AD: I agree, I agree. So, you are married right now? 39:35 KA: I am married. 39:40 AD: And your husband is Kurdish as well? 39:44 KA: He is Dutch Kurdish. So, he was naturalized as a Dutch person in the Netherlands [laughs], there is a very fascinating story of how we met. He is also from a totally different tribe than I am. So, there were definitely sort of cultural differences even though we both were Kurdish born in Kurdistan but born in different parts of Kurdistan and also raised in two different parts of the world. I mean I was raised in the United States, he was raised in the Netherlands, but yeah like I am very lucky to- 40:14 AD: How did you meet him? 40:16 KA: So, there is a very famous Kurdish restaurant here if you have ever here- 40:21 AD: I want to come to Nashville; I will definitely come. Okay- 40:27 KA: I would love to have you, so it is called the House of Kebab, they make Kurdish food, we can also, we do Kurdish and Persian- It is a Persian-Kurdish mixture. And so, I was at the house of Kebab, and I was just there, you know with one of my friends from college and we were eating and just kicking it off and he was here to visit his uncles from Netherlands and saw me there start asking other people about me. I had a very stubborn mind at that time. I was very against getting married. I wanted to travel the world and I did not want to get married and I was twenty-three years old of course my mom and dad were saying I am getting too old. [laughs] You know Kurdish, the cultural pressure and I am like well I guess I will never get married and do not bother me with it. It was my last year in college, my final semester actually and unfortunately I was getting proposals right and left because I was at that age and my parents were like I want some peace and just pick somebody and move out, you know, of the house, so I just I could say Oh she is going to marrying and I was not ready and I said no to him when he asked me and he went to go ask my father and my father said she is a very stubborn woman [laughter] and then he- I have an uncle that I am pretty close with, and so he found out that I am close to my uncle and went to go bug my uncle and my uncle said the same thing; she is a very stubborn woman. It is not going to happen just give up. And so, he called me over the phone and wanted to meet me and I really made him feel awful forever thinking and calling me and I hung up the phone on him. And so, he went back to the Netherlands. For me that was it. I was back to my studies and working and he could not stop thinking and he was more adamant the more I pushed him away the more he was like determined. So he came back around like Christmas break to visit his family again here and then one day I find him in my living room with his uncle and aunt [laughter], and his uncle and aunt, my father and my mother of course my parents like honestly, she has a mind of her own we do not tell her what to do, we also trust her judgment if she says no then it is a no. My father was basically saying you know yeah surely you have my permission if you can convince her go for it [laughs], but that has happened we did end up talking for few months and you know it is funny because I still I have the list of questions I asked him, it was over eighty questions. [laughs] 43:07 AD: Oh My God! 43:07 KA: About everything, I mean every little thing. And so from there we started talking, he came back to visit I got to know him, the family got to know him a little more and we ended up getting married after I graduated and was working and even that he wanted to me to go to the Netherlands and he liked it there better, he was a citizen there and had everything going on and I did not want to leave of course I had an established community here, my family here, I had friends, I was working and I was not ready to give up my whole country in a way for a man [laughs] and so ended up coming here to the United States and we have been together, it has been ten years now. 43:49 AD: Wow! 43:49 KA: -Anniversary, yeah and he is, like I said I am very, very lucky person. He is definitely that type of human being who would take what is good from each culture and practices it and let us go everything else that is not good. So, there are definitely some fractions in the Kurdish culture as it comes to gender norms and there are good things in the Kurdish culture. You know, so he is definitely, we both have a very collaborative relationship in the way we raise our children. You know I was very clear I said I just want to let you know I am activist in the community, I am an organizer, I speak, I travel and if you cannot accept my life, we are going to have difficulty. You know, I do challenge things that I see, and he was like that was what attracted me to you because that is a type of person I want to be with, and he has been raised like a partner with me. 44:46 AD: That is wonderful! 44:48 KA: It has been very helpful, I mean he was also been criticized by other Kurdish men [laughs] in the sense like “Oh are you scared of your wife,” you know those silly jokes, and you know, I just waved and so that he had hint him push back because I think it is very important that we start, you know, recognizing what is not appropriate to talk about even if it is so-called locker room talk right? 45:10 AD: That is right. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. So- 45:15 KA: So, he is a real estate agent, and he also works in the hospital in the imaging department as a radiologist, technologist. 45:26 AD: Okay, so he went to Netherlands from Turkey? Did he have a similar story like you? How did he- 45:36 KA: His is definitely different than mine. It is much more intense. It was just him who ended up there. And he was there studying. And then he was looking at going back but he ended up staying. So, his family still in Kurdistan as of right now, but they are from Zakho. He came from Zakho. 45:57 AD: Okay, so because Netherlands is also- is very liberal you know, the whole Europe I mean the United States is a very conservative country if you are asking me. So, like when you compare- 46:14 KA: He was saying the same thing. He was saying the same thing to me actually he was like it is quite conservative here. I was like really; I thought the United States is liberal. 46:22 AD: No, it is very conservative and, so I know when I talk to like the Kurdish people from different places like in Europe it is like more relaxed, the relationship and then they also- some of the- like for example Marwan thinks Kurdish people get assimilated into culture in Europe more so than they do here and so there was like back-and-forth conversation going on. I guess it just depends, generalization is not a good thing but there are like opinions that way- 47:09 KA: I mean it is the environment, so if you look at the Kurdish people in California, Kurdish people in York and Kurdish people in the South they are very different it is because of the environment there and so it is very simple, so for example many people it is funny because I tend to think of myself as very liberal but then when my Kurdish friends from California come and then like Kasar you seem conservative. I said why is it the way I would dress or the way I think, but if you look at it even our definitions vary and so for example what I think is liberal all maybe different from what you think is liberal or even the word liberated right? Because I get that quite a lot. We want to liberate you know certain women. And to me like my definition of liberated maybe different from yours. Maybe my definition of liberation is you know for women to be really free in her thought in her way of thinking for example if she decides to go to school and pursue her school, she has that avenue and she is liberated but if she decides to stay home and she just wants to be home and be a housewife then she should have the freedom to make that decision. You should not look at a woman, a mother who decide to stay a home as unliberated and somebody who is outside of the as liberated. That is not true; the true liberation is free thinking and applying that thinking to the way you want to live. So, it is not for example in the way you dress, right? 48:37 AD: I totally agree, yeah. 48:40 KA: Yeah, first time I decided to cover, I feel like that was the day I felt liberated. I feel liberated from the sort of the dehumanization of women in the street, right? I could be more relaxed and do not have to worry you know about makeup, my hair, my dress my whatever right? I could be relaxed- but again that was my definition but my good, my best friend who I love her to death, and she thinks liberation is less clothing and that is true for her right? 49:10 AD: That is right. That is how she perceives, right? 49:13 KA: Exactly, and the society needs to give that to her whether she wants to cover more or less. It should be her choice and no one else’s choice, not the husband not the wife or the government right. It should be the women’s choice. Very simply it is interesting because this is another way when my husband was like Europe is so much more liberal than the United States when we had our first born, of course within six weeks I was supposed to go back to work and my husband was Oh, like you just had a baby just have a whole year maternity leave and you get a social work coming at your house teaching you how to nurse and making sure that you are in a good mental state and your child is doing good, your new born, and I was shocked, and said you kidding me, so I began to research and I compared the United States to the rest of the world- I was like- family? I was like yeah. 50:05 AD: Yeah, in this country I am sorry like there is like no respect to a woman, no. 50:07 KA: Yeah, I mean we saw that with the elections. Right? 50:17 AD: Absolutely. 50:17 KA: It is interesting but for us to be in twenty-first century not to have a single female president! 50:28 AD: And we will not have it either for a while because this society is not ready, I mean, I am much older than you are Kasar when I was a child, I am from Istanbul, Turkey- That was where I came. 50:44 KA: Istanbul is beautiful when I was there. 50:46 AD: Isn’t that gorgeous? I love Istanbul. So growing up you know going to school, I remember Andera Gandhi was the prime minister in India and then according to Western culture that is considered you know a developing country, I mean, I was a child when all that was happening, so it is just I do not understand but the thing with Kurdish woman that is my personal observation it is different because Kurdish women I always thought they are stronger than other people because your father, either like man are working in the farm, they also go for fighting right, part of the Peshmerga, hello? 51:37 KA: Yes- 51:37 AD: So, and then, who raised the kids, who stayed at home, in some cases actually made the living, am I right? I am not even talking about the United States, back home- 51:51 KA: Absolutely- 51:51 AD: So, to me Kurdish women are strong women to begin with even before they came here, and here also I talk to you know different people here and when I look at the daughters I see they are strong girls and I think like that is the experience, the history, the culture even though they respect their father, you know father is still the decision making person you know but still I think Kurdish women are really strong. 52:32 KA: We, I think we have to be quite honestly like we have to be the conditions we are in and we face like I used- I interviewed my mom for a project I did for my sociology degree and the amount of time this woman have helped rebuild her house, unbelievable, like the amount of time it was destroyed to the ground and she rebuilt it again and she moved on, she did not give up hope. She and I was like mom if that was me I probably I would have just given up, and she said no, I cannot give up, you have to continue, you have to take your unfortunate experiences and turn them into strength for yourself and continue and so, you know she never- I never ever heard her complain to say I am tired. I never heard- even though like I said she was like a superwoman. She was working in factories, sometime sixty, seventy hours a week and then she was coming home where she has kids, we were all one year apart from each other it was like one case you know for that many children, yeah, she still took the time to make sure that she is, you know installing the correct character strength in us you know too not- 53:44 AD: Absolutely. 53:44 KA: Give up I mean she pushed us for example to learn, to cook and clean, and read and write. She is like these are human survival skills, you should know it all whether you choose to do it or not to do it my job is to teach you about it from there is up to you what you do with it. 53:59 AD: Absolutely. 53:59 KA: Even we religiously quite honestly, she again illiterate I mean she needed her basic prayers, did not teach me anything about Islam with the exception of one thing she was like just you have a creator, she was like you have a creator, never, never take that link and connection away from your creator. How you go about that connection is up to you. And I grew up like being very pluralistic when it comes to faith and religions, I was so fascinated. Our sponsor sort of would take us to church every Wednesday and Sunday. She was like you respect that church like she gave high respect to that church. I remember the bible she literally took it and put it right next to the Quran. She said it is as a holy book as this one. And so, I grew up with that type of teaching at home which really as now I am an adult I have so much tremendous respect for world religion- 54:52 AD: Absolutely, I want to meet your mother, I swear it is like she is like a phenomenal person, what you tell me is unbelievable. I mean. 55:05 KA: She is a very humble person. If you look at the documental- Next Door Neighbor by NPT, Nashville Public Television you will see a glimpse of her- 55:17 AD: Because I watched one documentary that is how I, you know, found about you and then I asked my friend Heevy and then Heevy- actually Heevy’s husband was in North Dakota, he was in Mardin- Edib, you know Edib? 55:41 KA: That is how we know them. Yeah. 55:42 AD: Yeah, that is how- Heevy is like really, really good friend of mine. And then his story was also very interesting. So, I asked Heevy I said I know Edib’s family is in Nashville can you put me in touch with Kasar, so that was how I found you. So, I watched one short documentary is that the one you talking about, your mom is in that documentary? I need to re-watch it to catch the detail. 56:15 KA: It is a very quick glimpse because she was too shy to talk so they just covered her while she was baking Kurdish bread- 56:25 AD: I mean I remember a woman baking the Kurdish bread, but I need to go back and watch it again. I need to. 56:32 KA: Yeah, she is a very, very humble, laid back, very simple woman unmaterialistic in so many ways. 56:39 AD: Beautiful. 56:40 KA: Yeah, she definitely shaped who I am today. So, do you pronounce your name Aynur? 56:48 AD: Aynur. 56:49 KA: Aynur- my battery is at one percent in case you get disconnected- 56:53 AD: Oh, okay, okay, all right. Well, Kasar I really want to talk I have so much more questions to ask you I mean if you have time another time, I can hook up with you because you have a very interesting story. I mean whenever I talk to Kurdish people, the story I hear, and I am like what is unique story. You may think oh, it is similar. No, everybody has a different story even though some of the paths are crossed you now still everybody has a very different- because everybody is a different individual. 57:30 KA: It is like with everybody human being, I mean every human being has his own unique story and for me I usually look at my story as set of stories or chapters and every chapter is unique in its own way. It has its own challenges, and it has opportunities, and it has its joy moments and you know. 57:53 AD: Absolutely. 57:54 KA: And each time you discover another chapter about who you are you know. 58:01 AD: Well since you almost run out of your battery maybe we can wrap it up and then maybe after the holidays if you have time, I know how busy you are I can just imagine if you have time maybe we can revisit and then also if you can put me in touch with others in Nashville area I would love to talk to some more- 58:28 KA: You know, absolutely, I would really love and appreciate it if you would get a diverse set of Kurdish voices you because also- 58:36 AD: That is what I want to do. 58:38 KA: -Communities and the way to get a comprehensive view of it is to get variety of different story- Yeah, I will be more than happy you know to get you in touch with a couple of people. 58:51 AD: Thank you so much I really want to document because Kurdish people were silenced for so long it is about that time to document, and I really want to you listen to their stories and what they experienced- 59:09 KA: And honestly it is very touching for someone of Turkish descent to want to really document it. 59:15 AD: I know, I mean this is my goal. Marwan Knows, Heevy knows I am doing everything to do that. 59:26 KA: Well, I appreciate it. I had a chance to- so my image of Turkey was really bad of course those four years- 59:32 AD: I have a very bad image of Turkey from your stories, absolutely- 59:42 KA: When I was in graduate school, I had an opportunity through the program to go to Turkey. As I went on purpose, there were like seven countries from to choose and I chose Turkey because I just wanted to, I am the type of person, I do not want to have one narrative about anybody or any place. As I went their honestly, I met, I saw like the Turkish people are so generous and so kind I was like why I did not get exposed to some of this. [laughs] 1:00:09 AD: I know. 1:00:11 KA: Because we were confined, we were not allowed to really interact with outside of that confinement but honestly I came back my eyes were just wide open and I remember at first hesitated to let people know I am Kurdish because I was like I wonder what they are going look like when they look at me- but In the bus when I said I am Kurdish people gave me discounts. It was so much respect I was like Oh I am not used to this [laughs]. 1:00:38 AD: Absolutely. 1:00:39 KA: As human beings we need to be careful not to fall into the dangers of a singular narrative about person or place. 1:00:48 AD: I agree, absolutely. I am glad you went back and then you met some decent people over there because not everybody is bad. Politics is bad but what happened is unbelievable. You know. 1:01:05 KA: In particular- if you like Turkey is such a beautiful place with so much opportunity and so much and like is just, I would be so heartbroken it, it continues to be damaged rather than rebuilt and unfortunately right now- 1:01:21 AD: But Kasar I do not what is going on in the world right now it is like everywhere, in this country, in Turkey I was just listening NPR this morning into work and then the election is being in Austria and then they are comparing the candidate with Hitler, I mean I am like what is the world coming to, seriously. 1:01:47 KA: You know when someone asked me, you know how were the election results? What was your sort of feelings and thoughts, I said honestly 11/9, I mean 9/11 and 11/9 are the two huge chapters that have influenced me? So of course, 9/11 happened with twin towers and then 11/9, November ninth we elected a president that I feel like reminded so much of Saddam Hussein- 1:02:15 AD: I agree. 1:02:16 KA: The way he talked, and the way he carries himself and I am like why we would do that. We work so hard to get rid of a dictator, yet we elect a dictator, a narcissist- 1:02:24 AD: I know- 1:02:27 KA: You know- it is, we will see we will pray for the best what can we do. 1:02:30 AD: I know- (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kasar Abdulla Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/01150855113997bf9018c2f0c2f0d325.jpg d425b9622b3a34732997ed00e2282e76 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ad26895d299177cca24c7cac26baae62.mp3 8c2f702375b069d8a4ee27fb82b97b51 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thị Kim Phúc Phan, 1963- Date of Interview 2010-10-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 76:11 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Baby boom generation; Christianity; Forgiving the US; Vietnam War Victim; Nineteen sixties; Kim Foundation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Baby boom generation; Christianity; Forgiving the US; Vietnam War Victim; Nineteen sixties; Kim Foundation.</span> Subject LCSH Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Photographs; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kim Phuc Description An account of the resource Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Photographs; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-10-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.156a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.156b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 76:11 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4e226f043e72318e859a2733247cff3b.jpg 45a1980a5235a7ed5891da1c07cf1d3e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9c8360799fdab0585b2680ec91092a29.mp3 73a7ef09527a6659392df1e6b673a224 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2001-12-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen MeKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Krissy Keefer Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Krissy Keefer is a dancer, choreographer, and artist-activist. In 1975, Keefer co-founded the feminist dance company, Wallflower Order. Later, in 1984, she co-founded another dance company, Dance Brigade, with Nina Fichter. She developed her own kind of dance theater which related to the martial arts, female athleticism, and social justice issues."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Krissy Keefer is a dancer, choreographer, and artist-activist. In 1975, Keefer co-founded the feminist dance company, Wallflower Order. Later, in 1984, she co-founded another dance company, Dance Brigade, with Nina Fichter. She developed her own kind of dance theater which combined martial arts, female athleticism, and social justice issues.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Hippies; Black nationalist; Democratic Party; Republican Party; Global warming; Women's Rights Movement; Kent State; Prison industrial complex; Beat Generation; The Gulf and Tonkin Resolution "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5017,"3":{"1":0},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Hippies; Black nationalist; Democratic Party; Republican Party; Global warming; Women's Rights Movement; Kent State; Prison industrial complex; Beat Generation; The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 82:04 Subject LCSH Dancers; Choreographers; Social justice; Political activists--United States; Keefer, Krissy--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Krissy Keefer Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 16 December 2001 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): Testing one, two, testing. Again, thank you very much. KK (00:00:08): Oh, sure. SM (00:00:09): And, hopefully, I will be able to meet you because, actually, I interviewed a couple other people like David [inaudible], who lives in Berkeley. And I know David said, "When you come out, I want you to take my picture," even though I have interviewed him already. Okay, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing you think about? KK (00:00:30): When I think about the (19)60s and the early (19)70s? Well, I was actually still in high school. SM (00:00:35): Also, speak up, because this phone of mine is not that loud. KK (00:00:38): Yeah. Well, I was in high school during the (19)60s and early (19)70s, so I graduated from high school in (19)71. So, mostly, I think about the cultural conflict, I do not know, kind of turmoil. It was turmoil, I think, because we were kind of trapped between two value systems that were colliding. The one value system was, get good grades, go to a school, and be a cheerleader. And the other was, give up all worldly possessions, get stoned, and hate the establishment. It was that explosion that was happening, and I felt like I was caught in all of that in high school. SM (00:01:25): When you were in high school, were you already interested in dance? KK (00:01:29): I had been a dancer since I was a kid. I started studying ballet when I was six. My mother was a dancer, so dance is part of our [inaudible]. SM (00:01:39): So you knew, when you left high school, you were going to stay in that as a profession? KK (00:01:45): I did not know how it was going to take form, but it was definitely my aspiration, my [inaudible]. But I had not built self-confidence around it or anything like that, but it was what I loved to do and what definitely unfolded for me, because I actually was able to get involved with a group of people in Oregon when I was probably 19, so really young, and started Wallflower Order with four other women when I was 22, and doing the same thing since then. SM (00:02:22): Before we start to talk about Wallflower Order, what was it in high school? Was it your peers? Was it teachers? Was it things you were seeing on the news? KK (00:02:34): All of that? I was in Cincinnati, Ohio, so I was really drawn to, and was one of the personalities in my high school that very much identified with, being a hippie. But I was in the suburbs in a rather affluent neighborhood, trying to be a hippie in that situation where suburb culture, everybody was smoking pot, listening to music, and becoming a hippie through looking at Life Magazine and listening to the news and sort of watching the anti-war movement, but not really necessarily being a real part of it. So it felt rather peripheral, but important. I was a peripheral player, but it was important for me. And when I talk to people my age, we all say we would rather have lived through the (19)60s than be young now. I actually feel sorry for people who had their maturation process take place during the Reagan era and later. SM (00:03:47): Yeah, describe that, because certainly growing up being young under Reagan, or even Bush? KK (00:03:54): Well, I think, actually, in a way, Reagan's era was more destructive because I feel like the ideological goal of Reagan's reign was to destroy the value system that we created in the (19)60s, which was less is more, and drop out from the rat race, and try to find a sense of peace and brotherly love, and try to get some kind of social justice for the black community and women and poor people. That became the dominant culture. We had a culture. We had a dual power culture operating in the United States that everybody was tied into so that my mother could sing along to Jefferson Airplane songs because our music and our culture is very tightly woven, and it kind of dominated the era. And I think what Reagan did, the goal of that was to undermine that and put [inaudible] personality back at the center, definitely destroy the black liberation movement, and start pumping drugs into the black community, and making social contributions seem more about how much money someone had rather than what they had for contribution. For example, someone like Jackson Brown or Bonnie Raitt who were not... Jackson got more political, but Bonnie Raitt, for example, or somebody like that who was not necessarily political could generate hundreds of thousands of dollars for a benefit for somebody who was working on more a grass roots level like myself for Holly Near that is not generating anywhere the same amount of money, you started to feel maybe your contribution was less significant or less [inaudible] able to participate in that kind of way. And so I felt like all of our contributions, our kind of collective conscious and sharing of resources, all of that, that is what they undermined. And everyone started buying into borrowing money and liquidating their own kind of more political, deep social justice aspirations. SM (00:06:24): Kris, could you speak up just a little bit, too? KK (00:06:26): Yeah-yeah-yeah. SM (00:06:27): Okay. Thank you. When you hear, and I know you have heard it, but I have for many years, these commentators, many of them conservatives, I am not being biased here, but many conservatives who will say that all the problems in the American society today can be placed blame on that period when Boomers were young in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Basically, I know they are making reference to the sexual revolution, the breakup of the American family, the drug culture, the divisions between black and white, the lack of respect for authority, the victim mentality that many people see in our society. And I remember there has even been books written about the Democratic Party was destroyed after McGovern lost in (19)72, and they had to go a different direction because they were identified too much with the anti-war movement. So your thoughts on those critics who blame the problems we have today on what happened when Boomers were young? KK (00:07:31): Well, I think that is their point of view, and that is actually a total distortion of what actually happened. The thing is that this country was founded on the genocide of Native American people and the enslavement of African people. That is the foundation of it, and there was never any self-criticism or rectification for either of those social monstrosities. So if you never looked deeply into how we got this land base and got this, quote, great country going, then you do not have any sense of what is really happening. And what the hippies and the (19)60s did is the truth finally started to emerge about what created the wealth of this country and what created our place in the world, so to speak. And I think all of those people... I am never one of the people that say, "Oh, the good old days." The good old days of what? What era are you talking about? So because the African-American population has never been given any economic [inaudible] this country. And that is what the (19)60s revealed is the inequities, not the division started. It was when the inequities were finally pointed out. And then that is what Reagan did. Reagan put a damper, a big clamp down on the black community and destroyed its economic base. So I think those are the apologists for imperialism. That is the white fundamentalist, Christian-based, church conservative movement of which I have family in Cincinnati. Those are my people, too. That is what I am saying, when you get caught kind of in the cross-hairs, the crossfire of two different world views. But that worldview is deeply unfair and inaccurate. SM (00:09:36): Let me try to turn my volume up. Hold on one second. Yeah, I am just going to have some beeps here. There? KK (00:09:43): Yes. SM (00:09:43): Okay, very good. If you look at the Boomer generation, it is hard to state that everybody falls into this category, but when you look at the generation as a whole, what are its strengths, in your view? And what are its weaknesses? And that is looking at all Boomers, male, female, black, white? What do you think were some of the strengths within the generation? KK (00:10:14): I am from San Francisco, right? So I [inaudible] KPFA events. Do you know what KPFA is? SM (00:10:16): No. KK (00:10:24): Okay, KPFA is the public radio, Pacifica. Do you know what Pacifica is? SM (00:10:29): Yes, I do. KK (00:10:30): WPAI? KPFA? Anyway, for most people in their (19)60s, the most radical radio stations on in the Bay Area, mostly Boomer. It is the older side of the Boomers. And then there is all the Boomers that bought into the Reagan era, and drive SUVs, and spend their time skiing, and shopping at very fancy stores, and travel all the time. You cannot really characterize what the Boomers are now, or what they became. They are just a big group of people. I feel that maybe we had a common experience at one point, and some of us stayed true to our values, but many people did not stay true to the values that were generated. SM (00:11:19): Well, one of the things that the Boomer generation, when they were young, thought, and I know a lot of the people that I knew who were Boomers felt they were the most unique generation in American history, and because they were going to change the world for the better they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, bring peace to the world. Obviously, we still have these issues, but there was that feeling. What are your thoughts when you hear people say, "We are the most unique?" KK (00:11:51): Yeah, I think that the (19)60s- SM (00:11:51): Oh, Krissy? KK (00:11:51): Yes? SM (00:11:52): Could you speak up a little louder? I am not sure what is- KK (00:11:54): [inaudible] louder. I am talking really loud. So it is either my phone, or your phone. I cannot talk any louder. SM (00:11:59): Okay, very good. KK (00:12:00): What do I think they we are? I do not even to think that is interesting, actually. What would that be? We are talking about what is going on right now. We had a very amazing experience in the (19)60s, but we have a catastrophic environmental situation, and race and class situation right now, and it is much more interesting. What is that group of people doing about this problem, and what is the kids? What is everyone doing about this right now? You could see in Obama's campaign, underlying Obama's campaign was the organizing tactics of Caesar Chavez. Through Reverend Wright, there was a Black nationalist politics that Obama was aware of. There was community organizing. All of those things are (19)60s value systems that have been able to take through. At the same time, he had to capitulate and manage a whole very conservative Democratic Party wing at the same time, not to mention the ultra-right-wing Republican Party he has got to deal with every day. So, at a certain point, that is the whole spectrum that is happening right now. And how is that group of people dealing with the fact that all the polar ice caps are melting? We are in big trouble here. And so the Boomers sit around and pat themselves on the back. Who cares? It does not matter. What happened a long time ago, does not matter. It is what is going to happen in the next five years. It is absolutely essential that people stop consuming, and stop patting themselves on the back, and all of that. I always use the analogy of the co-op. In the (19)60s, the co-op was a small room, and it had a bin of rice, a bin of couscous, some tofu floating in some water, and some vegetables. Now you go into co-op health food stores, they are multi-billion-dollar conglomerates, 50 different choices on every kind of thing. It is sickening. It is sickening. That is where our values, in my mind, went completely south. That is where we, in the guise of doing something great, it is just as pathetic as if you walked into Kroger's. SM (00:14:36): How did you get to Oregon, when you went to Oregon? And secondly, how did you meet up and start Wallflower Order? And thirdly, what was the basic premise behind Wallflower Order? KK (00:14:54): I found out about Oregon through one of my friend's mothers who told me that I should go out there, because my grades were not that good in high school, and University of Oregon said, "If you get good grades in the summer, you could stay [inaudible] go to school here." Well, I did that. I was dancing with a group called Eugene Dance Collective. And out of that, we started the Wallflower Order. And it was 1975, the Vietnam War just ended, and we were a collective. Everybody was a collective. Collectives were sort of the organizational structure that people glommed onto, a lot coming out of Mao and Ho Chi Min and all of that kind of political thought that was operating in Asia, and started a collective like them. So my group was a collective, and Berkeley women's music collective, and all the hundreds of collective stores, and all of that. And we just started dancing together, and did some performances, and got hooked up with Holly Near. Her sister was in our group, and she took us on the road some. And then we just kind of created our own space nationally and toured all over. SM (00:16:05): Was there a magic moment early on between that time you left high school and your experiences in Oregon when you knew, I am an activist? KK (00:16:20): When I knew I was an activist? I was political in high school, so I was always trying to make sense of it in high school. So I definitely was, in 1975 when we started the Wallflower Order, able to say, "I am an artist as well as an activist." And it was always very important in the Wallflower Order that our dances have social relevance and reflect our community, which at that time was kind of the women's movement. The women's movement was definitely our [inaudible]. SM (00:16:59): A lot of people, when they see dance, they think, certainly, it is an art, but they do not always see the linkage between politics and dance. And obviously from the get-go, from your first experiences in Oregon, to what you are doing today with the Dance Brigade, that is the definition of what you do, politics and dance. That is an activist type of a thing, and it is certainly a little bit different. Explain in a little more in detail? KK (00:17:29): Well, from 1975 on, the women's movement was all about your personal life as political. That was a big part. So we would make dance up, say, about being women, and we would also make dances up, about the environment, or we would make dances up about anti-war dances, or we made dances up about working class women. So we were all studying and thinking together. The whole movement was studying and thinking about all these issues about race and class. So we would use the poetry or the writings of feminist women who we considered part of our national art scene, the Holly years. We used that a lot. We used Baron's music. We used [inaudible]. We had a whole bunch of artists, women artists, that we could draw from. And telling our story was political. And then, as we kept going, we had study groups, and then we got involved in the movements to support the war in El Salvador against... We were involved in the women's solidarity movement, supporting struggles with Chile, El Salvador, and Nicaragua, that whole thing that happened in the early (19)80s. We were involved in that. We got involved in the environmental movements. We were involved in lots of different organizations and things that were working on different causes. SM (00:19:04): One of the things about the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement is that women were often put in secondary roles. And in some of the history books that have been written on the period, many of the women shot away from those groups and became part of the leadership of the women's movement that we saw in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. And I know it has become a sensitive issue in the civil rights community and some of the anti-war community, but is there truth that, in some of these movements that took part when Boomers were young, and I even asked... I just interviewed Denis Hayes today, of- KK (00:19:45): Who is that? I do not know who that is. SM (00:19:47): He is the founder of Earth Day. KK (00:19:50): Oh, yeah-yeah-yeah. SM (00:19:50): He and Gaylord Nelson, Senator Nelson. And I asked him the same question about the environmental movement in the very beginning as well as the Native American, the Chicano, the gay and lesbian movement, did men dominate? And in a lot of them, they did. KK (00:20:06): Yes. SM (00:20:07): And just your thoughts on if you sensed this as a young person back in Oregon, and then as you came to San Francisco? But, basically, in Oregon you saw this sexism that happened and women had to take the lead on things? KK (00:20:24): What is the question, then? SM (00:20:25): The question is about the movements. Do you think most of the movements were sexist? KK (00:20:32): Yeah. I think we all agree with that. I do not think there is any disagreement on that. And I think the sexism is actually what gave birth to the women's movement. And then I think what happened is the women's movement, actually it is kind of autonomous, had its own leadership, its own culture, and its own social relationships, and all of that. And I think now, for women to try to get involved in politics, and it is like you have not improved enough in relationship to being since 2010. I mean, the homophobia is still rampant throughout the country. There is enormous sexism, not that many women [inaudible] in the government really, not close to 50 percent. In San Francisco, it is very hard for women politicians to get elected, very hard. So, do I think it is improved? Actually, not that much. SM (00:21:25): Wow. KK (00:21:26): In fact, I think a lot of things are actually a lot worse than they were 20 years ago. I do not think we improved the environment at all. I think we dropped the ball on that completely. We dropped the ball on the war. We still have not been able to keep the United States going to war. We have not been able to rectify poverty at all. We have hideous class... When I was growing up, it was one out of 10 percent of the people own 90 percent of the wealth. Now it is 1 percent of the people own 90 percent of the wealth, and it used to be one out of four African-Americans had a relationship [inaudible], and now it is out of three. None of our social movements actually improved the last 30 years, and I attribute that a lot to what happened during Reagan's era. I think that was the goal, to put a brake on what kind of exploded in (19)60s. SM (00:22:18): You make a good point, because I can remember when he became President, his famous two words were, "America's back." And he was making a reference, I think, to the Vietnam War and the breakdown of the military and the army. And he was going to build the military back up again because, well, a lot of the issues from the (19)60s and Vietnam. And then, of course, President Bush, that followed him, said, "The Vietnam syndrome is over." So, between the two of them, they made those kinds of comments. And when I look at those comments, I say, yeah, maybe taking pride in America is what he wanted to see, but it basically a slap of what had been before. KK (00:23:01): Right. SM (00:23:04): How important were the college students in your opinion on the campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s in ending the war in Vietnam? KK (00:23:12): I think very important. I think the draft is why we ended it, because people got sick of being drafted and watching their relatives die. And, unfairly, if you are drafted and you do not want to go, to have to go is completely... everybody [inaudible] that. After a while, so many people died, they got sick of watching it. So I think everybody started to rebel. It was very, very close to home. The fact that there is no draft, who is going is kind of removed in a way that it was not then. SM (00:23:43): Do you think the Boomers have, and, again, this is just subjective based on your experience in knowing people who are Boomers, been good parents and grandparents in terms of sharing what their experiences were when they were young in the (19)60s and early (19)70s? And in terms of activism, passing some of these lessons on to them? KK (00:24:10): Yeah. I am in the Bay Area, so they are the liberal backbone of the country. You know what I mean? I probably have a very different kind of pulse on it. When I see the Boomers, when I am in Cincinnati, are my friends in Cincinnati radical and political? No, they are not. And a lot of them are fundamentalist Christians. So do I go back to high school and have the same kinds of head space that was there? Absolutely not. But is San Francisco and Sonoma and that whole northern California area, [inaudible] people might think like me, yeah. You know what I mean? It is a geographical thing a lot. SM (00:24:53): Good point. Very good point. KK (00:24:57): Probably in Boston, the Boomers are on a certain, same page, and Cambridge, and Northampton, and that. It is true. The liberals want to sort of live with each other, and they create enclaves, but are the Boomers down in Miami, Florida thinking like me? I doubt it. SM (00:25:14): And certainly some of the college environments in different parts of the country may have had different experiences, too. In your view, when did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end? KK (00:25:25): (19)60s, okay, I would probably say with the death of Kennedy, probably, on some level. You are talking to somebody who was 12. I am not a historian, so I have not given it an enormous amount of thought. But I would say from Kennedy through the death of Martin Luther King and then Malcolm X, I would say that is when the shit the fan pretty much in terms of people getting out in the streets and all of that. And when did it end? I would probably say, when did Reagan get elected? When did Carter, lose get election? SM (00:26:04): He lost in (19)79, and Reagan came in (19)80. KK (00:26:06): Yeah, there you go. That was the end. SM (00:26:11): And again, this is purely subjective. KK (00:26:13): You have to see what happened, too. What I see happened in the (19)70s, when the Vietnam War ended, all of that energy that was out in the street turned into creating kind of a social change network of collectives across the United States. So people, instead of fighting the government, they started building a cultural movement in the communities. In Eugene, for example, there was the Woman's Press, there were women's restaurants, there was women's bicycle repair, there was dance companies, there was women's trucking collectives. There was women's [inaudible] collectives, there were dance collectives, there were karate schools, all huge amount of collective business, and they were doing social change work by doing that. So the emphasis shifted. We reported, were sharing resources and ideas, and trying to work together. That is what the end of the Vietnam era gave birth to in my opinion. Then, at the end of the (19)70s, the recession hit, Reagan came in, and it was all survival of the fittest again. SM (00:27:29): If I were to have 500 Boomers in the room from all backgrounds, and I am talking about male, female, all different ethnic groups, sexual orientation, you name it, and we were to ask them, "Is there one specific event that had the greatest impact on your life?", what is that event? And I know there would be different answers, but there would be one that would probably stand out. What do you think that one would be? KK (00:27:58): Well, when you would say, "What was the biggest part of our movement?", I would say, the music. So then you might say, "Well, maybe it was Woodstock," but it depends on if you were thinking politically with Democratic convention and what happened there. Was it the riots in Watts? I do not know. It depends on how you were kind of plugged in. The Beatles and the Sergeant Pepper's Lonely-Hearts Club Band coming out, that who Maharishi going off to India, I do not know. There is so many different parts of it, the assassination of Fred Hampton in Chicago. I mean, it is [inaudible]- SM (00:28:46): It is hard to pinpoint. KK (00:28:48): What you cared about. What do you think? SM (00:28:55): Oh, I am trying not to put my opinion in there. To me. KK (00:28:59): Off the record? SM (00:29:00): Off the record, to me, it would be John Kennedy's death. But that is been a lot, and certainly the death of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy in the year (19)68, and Kent State. KK (00:29:13): Yes. SM (00:29:14): I might even say Kent State above Kennedy because of what it did. I am going to read this to you. I got a whole lot of questions here that are specifically based on your career, but this is a question that we asked Senator Edmond Musky before he passed away. I worked at Westchester University. We took 14 students leaders to meet him as part of our leadership on the road. He had just gotten out of the hospital, was not feeling very well, but he still met us. And he, I guess, had seen the Ken Burns series when he was in the hospital on the Civil War. And the students came up with this question because they thought he would respond by replying, "1968 and all the issues in America," but he did not let me read the question to you? KK (00:29:57): Okay. SM (00:29:58): Do you feel Boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, divisions between gay and straight? Divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it? Division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? And let us see here. Certainly, the Vietnam Memorial has helped a lot of the veterans, but the question is beyond the veterans. Do you feel that the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in assuming this after 40 years? Or is there true to the statement that time heals all wounds? KK (00:30:47): Framing a question is not adequate. We are suffering. The [inaudible] suffering. The Boomers are not suffering. It is our parents' generation who would suffer, because it was their world that was rocked open. They had a certain idea about how it was supposed to be. We ripped the scab off the sore, but it was not a bad thing that we did that because it was a sore. You know what I mean? So your question demands certain supposition. I think it is backwards. I think we were liberated by that. And so I am not suffering. I am suffering because [inaudible] maintain it. When you say that the (19)60s made the division between gay and straight, there were no gay people that were allowed out of the closet in the (19)60s. So it was not like everything was hunky dory. There was a pretending that everything was hunky story. It was a pretending like Eisenhower and that suburban golf course, pill-popping housewife culture was okay. It was all screwed up. There is the trauma. The trauma was not in what we did. The trauma was the inebriated housewife sucking on Secanol, that is where the problem was, the women that did not have any jobs, women who could not work, the women who were only supposed to have children as their only alternative. That was the trauma. The trauma was not me running around without a bra on. Do you understand what I am- SM (00:32:22): Yes, I do. KK (00:32:24): Yeah. So that is how I feel about it. SM (00:32:25): That is very important because you talk about, what was it, in the (19)50s, these 70-plus million kids who seem to have solid homes, father and mother at home, even in the African-American community, the statistics will show that there was a mother and father at home in the (19)50s and then something happened in the (19)60s. But what was it in those times when parents were trying to give- KK (00:32:53): Let us talk about what is marriage. I mean, look at Tiger Woods. Look at what marriage is. Nobody even really wants to talk about what marriage is. What is monogamy? What is the expectation that two people are going to stay together, raise five kids, and are going to have enough money to do it throughout their whole life and their kids are going to go off to college and make more money than they did, that people are not going to get addicted to drugs an alcohol and end up in [inaudible] prison-industrial complex, and all of it. The whole thing is a mythology. The (19)50s was a mythology, and it was actually a very short amount of time. And who was really served by that? SM (00:33:28): Do you think the beats had any part in this too? The beats? KK (00:33:34): Absolutely. The beats were the beginning of the cultural revolution. Absolutely, absolutely. SM (00:33:41): Because they questioned authority and they did not like the status quo, and Kerouac and Ginsburg were such influences? KK (00:33:47): Very important, very important. Here is deal. I do not know how you describe the black working class in the (19)50s and early (19)60s. I grew up in South Carolina. It was virtually apartheid for black people. We had a maid in our house we paid 50 cents an hour. We were not rich. My mother and father had five kids. It was a young black girl that came in and ironed for my mother. She got 50 cents an hour. We drove her home. They lived in some shanty town. There was no economic base there at all. There was whites only everything, on every library, on where we washed our clothes. Whites and blacks were not allowed to be in the same space together. So where was the good old days? Tell me about that? SM (00:34:39): Well, you raised some very good points, and I have heard some other comments, too. I can remember when my dad won trips to Florida and we went from the Syracuse, New York area down to... And we did not have highways back then, and (19)57, (19)58 and (19)59, we stopped at these restaurants and went by these homes, and I kept asking my parents, "Why are these homes so terrible? They are just shacks." And I do not know if I have ever gotten an answer from them, but I tell you, it was a wide-opening experience for someone that was like nine and 10 years old starting to question. KK (00:35:17): [inaudible] swimming. Black people and white people were not allowed to integrate. Blacks whites were never together anywhere when I was growing up in South Carolina, 1953 until Kennedy was killed. So I do not know when... That is what I am saying. It depends on... It is like Howard Zinn. It is like, who is telling the history? You know what I mean? SM (00:35:35): Right. KK (00:35:37): From their point of view, I do not think it was so [inaudible]. Maybe from somebody else's point of view, it is when we all got along. It is not when we got along. It was when black people had no political power at all, anywhere in the United States. Women had no political power. Gays and lesbians had no political power. So did it appear to be okay? Yeah. But there was a rumble underneath the whole thing. SM (00:36:01): Right. KK (00:36:04): It was the, quote, calm before the storm. You cannot go back to that. You cannot go back. SM (00:36:09): As someone said to me when I was asking another scholar, she said to me, "You are talking as a white male. You are talking the way white males may have thought about what it was like in the 1950s, but it was not white females because if you ever really talked to your mom about how she felt, you never heard it." KK (00:36:32): Yeah, exactly. [inaudible], exactly. I totally agree with that, yeah. SM (00:36:39): There is another issue here, too. And one of the characteristics of the Boomers that is often been written about is that they did not trust anybody, and this lack of trust came from leaders that had lied to them. Obviously, we saw President Johnson with the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which was a lie. But we all know about Watergate and Richard Nixon. Even in recent years, there has been questions about John Kennedy and his linkage to the overthrow of the [inaudible] regime and the issues with Cuba. Then President Eisenhower lied on U2. Then as Boomers aged, there has been issues within every presidency about truth. And Bill Clinton, "I did not have sex with that woman," and weapons of mass destruction by George Bush. Every president seems to have had something. And the question I am asking is this, when I was in college, I had a professor who told me and told our class that no one can be a success in life if they do not trust someone. And so the question I am asking, is the lack of trust that the Boomers have toward anybody in positions of leadership during when they were young, and that included everyone, university presidents, heads of corporations, ministers, priests, rabbis, no matter who was in position, they did not trust them, is that a truthful statement? That one of their qualities is they do not trust? KK (00:38:09): I think that that was a cultural collective consciousness. I would say that was a collective consciousness. It was also sort of a glib remark at the same time, although it did become a headline, never... do not trust anyone over 30. I would say that it was very driven by youth movement, between 18 and 30, or something like that. But I do not think that Boomers... Trust is the kind of personal sort of... I do not know. I would say the collectively, probably black people do not trust white people. Native Americans do not trust United States government. You can say that about groups of people that have been systematically ripped off by a [inaudible]. I would probably say there is all kinds of groups of people that do not trust other groups of people. And I do not know that, as the Boomers age, that they still do not trust. You know what I mean? I do not think [inaudible] was maybe disheartening, or maybe you, or some people, it is just that the Boomers [inaudible] stay true to their original values. And that is a real heartbreak. Not that they disrupted something, it is that what they have disrupted they have not been able to make good on. And I think that is the kind of heartbreak that is out about Obama right now. Obama, had the values of the (19)60s in his campaign. We were hoping, out of that, that he would take our values system and put it in the center rather than having it be some peripheral concept. And what we are seeing is that the whole thing that happened with Van Jones. Do you know who Van Jones is? SM (00:40:17): Yes, he quit, had to leave. Yes. KK (00:40:20): Yeah, he was forced out, kind of an ideologue, and he is only 40, or something. So for thinking Boomers, for political Boomers, for Democratic Party-plus, Green Party-type Boomers, people who still hold those anti-war social justice issues, they might be heartbroken and disappointed, but I do not think trust is very big. We do not trust, because why would you trust United States government? You know what I mean? That kind of thing. SM (00:41:01): I have three statements here that were at the time that I would like your response to see if they truly define the Boomer generation? The first one is Malcolm X, when he said, "By any means necessary." The second one is Bobby Kennedy, which he quoted the Henry-Henry David Thoreau quote, "Some men see things as they are and ask, why? I see things that never were and ask, why not?" And the third one is actually from a Peter Max poster that was very popular in 1971 when I was in grad school, and the words were, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." And what those three statements talk about is the more radical group, the people in the movements that were very idealistic for the betterment of society, and then you have got more of the hippie mentality. Would you say those three could define the generation? KK (00:42:04): Yeah. I would say that Malcolm X for my [inaudible] represented people that were very political and interested in building a different kind of political government, socialism and all of that, and just doing something really different. Who was in Washington? I would say Kennedy's statement is more philosophical, or perhaps forward-thinking for writing and intellectuals and all of that. And I think the third one was for people who were rebelling by hanging out. People rebelled by just not working. SM (00:42:41): Right. KK (00:42:44): They stopped plugging in. They stopped plugging in, and that became a value and a virtue. SM (00:42:50): What are the photographs that you think... I am going to change the side of the tape. Photography has always been used to define eras and periods of time and events. When you think of the Boomer generation, what are the pictures that you think of when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s? And I am concentrating a lot in when Boomers were young, which is in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s. KK (00:43:23): Well, I think that the child from Vietnam running from the Napalm, I think all the Kennedy assassination pictures, Jackie and the pink dress and the hat and all of those pictures, but those have also been played over and over and over again. I would think the Life Magazine photos of the American people wrapped in the American flag, maybe those were from Woodstock, somebody in America, the way people started wearing the American flag, that whole kind of thing. Photos from photos from Woodstock, to see all people that were there. Kent State, the woman on her knees at Kent State. SM (00:44:13): Yeah, Mary Vecchio. You have you have listed just about all of them. The other one is Tommy Smith and John Carlos at the (19)68 Olympics with the black power fists up. KK (00:44:24): That one. SM (00:44:27): And, obviously, some of the Vietnam pictures too, that were classic of the troops, and certainly My Lai and the guy shooting- KK (00:44:34): The Beatles. I think Beatles played a big part in the whole thing. I am an artist, so I track the influence of art and stuff like that. But the music was very diverse, and everybody tapped into all different kinds of music, from rhythm and blues, to Beatles, to acid rock that came out of San Francisco, to Ike and Tina Turner, the whole thing. Everybody, they are all listing all of that together, and those photos of Timmy Hendrix playing his guitar, for lots of people, that is as big of an icon as the napalm child, you know what I mean? It was all of it was all it together. You cannot have one without the other. It was all hooked up. SM (00:45:26): Would you believe that the social commentary, just like your dance, that the arts... I would like your thoughts, just some general thoughts, on the arts of the period, which you have gone on with your career? But the music, you talked about the Beatles, but I always kind of defined it, and the Motown sound was important. KK (00:45:48): Totally important. SM (00:45:51): And certainly the rock music, and the different types of rock music, and folk music. KK (00:45:55): Totally important. Or, Marvin Gay, Sly and the Family Stone, Diana Ross, pop, the whole thing, I mean all of it. The Coasters, the Four Seasons, I mean the whole thing. That is what was so amazing. It was so much, and no matter which song you hear from that era, it reminds you of a particular time. SM (00:46:22): Did the (19)60s make the music and the art? Or did the art and the music make the (19)60s? KK (00:46:26): No, they happened together. They happened [inaudible] what happens with leftists, with the intellectual left [inaudible]. They underestimate power of art to actually hold and transform [inaudible]. And so they do not give enough credit to it. But I think that Jimmy Hendrix smoking pot [inaudible] broke people open, just like the Vietnam War broke [inaudible]. So it is just everything about what your parents told you just was not true. And how you got there just was all different kinds ways. But lots of people were not in the university. Lots of people dropped out of college, so they were not having the Kent State experience. They only had the Kent State experience through the newspapers. They were having their own experience somewhere else sitting in a park smoking pot, you know what I mean? SM (00:47:23): What did you think of the communal experiences from that era? KK (00:47:28): I thought they were pretty amazing. I think that is what I was saying about my experience with all the collectives all over the country. I felt like we tried to create dual power structure of business, a dual power structure on how to relate socially, how to make money, how to share power, share money, and get something done at the same time. That was pretty amazing and I am really glad I went through it. SM (00:47:54): Let me ask you some question also about the books? Were there any books that were popular with you and your peers? KK (00:48:03): Oh, I do not know. There is all the Richard Brautigan. I am sure I am not kind of... It depends on what era. When I was in high school, it was Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Richard Brautigan, and Kurt Vonnegut, and mostly male writers, Ken Kesey, all of those guys. Then I switched over to the women's movement in the (19)70s, so then it was [inaudible] and Joyce Carol Oates, I am kind of lost right now for all of them, Judy Braun, all the kind of women lesbian poets and writers from the early (19)70s. And then Ginsburg and all those guys had a huge impact. SM (00:48:50): Well, before I ask some questions directly about your experiences in San Francisco and what you are doing now, I wanted you to respond to... You do not have to be long on any responses, but just gut level reactions to these terms or words or people? Are you ready? What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? KK (00:49:13): Not very much. I have never seen it, so I do not have a feeling about it. SM (00:49:19): What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? KK (00:49:23): Trauma, total trauma. SM (00:49:26): What does Watergate mean to you? KK (00:49:28): The end of the Presidency as he knew it. SM (00:49:34): Woodstock? Summer of love? KK (00:49:39): Transformational. SM (00:49:42): 1968? KK (00:49:44): Traumatic. SM (00:49:46): The term, counterculture? KK (00:49:50): Far out. SM (00:49:52): Okay. Hippies and yippies? They are two different groups. KK (00:49:58): I think they are sort of the same, really. They are all part of the same cultural movement. I know they separated themselves from each other, but it is just that era, a certain era in time. SM (00:50:10): Any thoughts on them? KK (00:50:11): No, mm-mm? SM (00:50:13): No? How about Students for a Democratic Society? KK (00:50:18): I appreciate what they tried to do. SM (00:50:20): How about the Weatherman? KK (00:50:22): I appreciate what they tried to do. SM (00:50:24): How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War? KK (00:50:26): I appreciate what they tried to do. SM (00:50:34): Jane Fonda? KK (00:50:35): I appreciate what they tried to do, very much. SM (00:50:39): How about Tom Hayden? KK (00:50:40): Yeah, same. SM (00:50:43): Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? KK (00:50:45): Yes. SM (00:50:46): The same? How about Timothy Leary? How about the Black Panthers, which is Angela Davis? KK (00:50:55): Far out, yes. God, they had their day. SM (00:50:59): Angela Davis, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, [inaudible 00:51:04] Brown, Stokely Carmichael, that whole group? KK (00:51:05): They were important. SM (00:51:08): How about Richard Nixon? KK (00:51:13): Well, he played his part. That is the heartbreak. Very few people make it to that level of power without having to stop being a criminal. SM (00:51:27): How about Spiro Agnew? KK (00:51:29): I do not have a big opinion on Spiro Agnew? SM (00:51:32): Eugene McCarthy? KK (00:51:32): Yeah, I like what he tried to do. SM (00:51:35): George McGovern? KK (00:51:36): Yeah. SM (00:51:38): John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy? KK (00:51:43): Rich people. Bobby Kennedy, I actually think really suddenly really got it. He actually was a hero. He really got it, all of it. He got what class war was, but tried to do the right thing. SM (00:51:58): How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? KK (00:52:01): Not that interesting. SM (00:52:03): Not that what? KK (00:52:04): Not that interesting. I do not think about them. SM (00:52:07): Okay. Robert McNamara? KK (00:52:09): Well, he is interesting because he turned state evidence, right? SM (00:52:14): Yeah. KK (00:52:14): Yeah, I appreciate what he tried to do. SM (00:52:18): George Wallace? KK (00:52:20): Yeah, another fool of the right wing. SM (00:52:23): Ronald Reagan? KK (00:52:25): Big problem. Big problem. SM (00:52:29): Daniel Elsberg? KK (00:52:31): Good guy. SM (00:52:34): Benjamin Spock? KK (00:52:37): Good guy. Yeah. SM (00:52:40): What about the Berrigan brothers, Phillip and Daniel? KK (00:52:42): Do you realize you have only mentioned one woman in the whole group? SM (00:52:45): No, I am coming to them. KK (00:52:47): The Berrigan brothers? Yeah, good guys. SM (00:52:50): Gloria Steinem? KK (00:52:51): Good. Great. Right on. Good. SM (00:52:54): Bella Abzug? KK (00:52:56): Good. SM (00:52:57): Betty Friedan? KK (00:52:59): Good. SM (00:53:00): How about Shirley Chisholm? KK (00:53:02): Yes, great. SM (00:53:05): Barry Goldwater? KK (00:53:08): Republican, probably a nicer guy than what we have right now. SM (00:53:12): The ERA? KK (00:53:14): Equal Rights Amendment? Yeah, [inaudible]. SM (00:53:19): And, let us see, I guess that is... no more names. And I think the last one was John Dean here? KK (00:53:28): John Dean, you mean the actor? SM (00:53:29): No, no, no. The guy who was came out at Watergate. That move from Eugene to San Francisco, that was in 1984, correct? KK (00:53:46): We moved from Eugene, Oregon to Boston and lived there for a year-and-a-half. And, in that time period, we traveled over to United States, Europe, and we went Nicaragua with a group called Grupo Raiz, R-A-I-Z, from [inaudible]. And we did anti-war work around El Salvador and Nicaragua. SM (00:54:09): One of the things that was in some of the literature I read on the web is they defined you as a politically committed choreographer. KK (00:54:17): Yes. SM (00:54:18): Could you define the meaning of that? And I know what the meaning is, but just to- KK (00:54:27): I am a choreographer, but I consider myself part of the social justice movement. I form and work for... do my work [inaudible] forward-thinking, and they use that. They call me that because it is easy to understand what [inaudible]. For me, I [inaudible] based on the [inaudible] Book of the Dead. I did it about the environment. I did a birthday letter Fidel Castro. I mean, my work is crosses the gamut. I did [inaudible] 10th century, so I have pieces about all those things, but I can get pigeonholed being called a political choreographer. But I do not really care what people say. SM (00:55:24): One of the things, I listed some things here when I read the material. You have what I call spirit in the performing arts. And of course spirit was a very important part of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, too, within the Boomer generation. I think it is an important quality. When did you have that sense of spirit that what you do can truly influence your audience? And give some examples of where your performances, you know that it has really had an effect on people? KK (00:55:59): Well, I can tell when I do a show that it is successful because I would say 95 percent time that I have performed in all different venues all over the world, I have gotten a standing ovation for my work. And what that means is that, at a certain point in the evening, audience and the performance got into a groove together and we had epiphany, or a yes, me too, kind of experience at the end. So I can watch that happen in my work. Then I get feedback and letters from people that say, "I have come to see this show three times. It is really helped me out. It is an important part in my time in my life when I was really depressed, or contemplating breaking up in a relationship, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." So it has just been, throughout my career, I have had enough of the same experience to know that it was working on some level. SM (00:57:04): One of the other things too, I look at all the issues that have been involved in your work, the issues you care about, whether it is about class and justice, war, racism, violence against women, even the issue of breast cancer, and certainly people's indifference to the AIDS crisis in the beginning. And I know, I lived in the Bay Area, and I know people out there in terms of the gentrification and the taking away of homes, and that was a big issue when I was out there, and I got so furious as a citizen that people would actually do that. These are great things to put into your work. They are really the spirit of what the (19)60s is all about. And, again, you have what I call, I wish all the Boomers had, a concept of longevity. KK (00:57:54): Yes. SM (00:57:57): And do you find in your audiences, and beyond San Francisco now, that you see a lot of people that are like you? That longevity is very important in terms of making a difference in the world? KK (00:58:11): No, I do not know. Longevity, people either stay true to the original impulse, or they did not at all, or they stayed true to part of it. Or they see me and... When I go up to Sonoma, there is so many lesbians that live in Sonoma. And when I go up to Sebastopol, they look at me and they maybe have not danced in 20 years. They are like, "You used to be in Eugene, Oregon in the Wallflower Order." You know what I mean? There was something that we did then that people resonate with. The fact that they remember me from then means something about their life is still similar to what it was. And I really think that the Bay Area is unique because people go to the Bay Areas so they can live among like-minded people. All the real bashing up of social issues, how you deal with social problems, the best and the brightest ideas come out of the Northern California. And not in Cincinnati. I would ask those questions. If I was in Cincinnati, I would feel completely defeated. But see there, everybody around me, all my women friends, we were all biting up the bit talking about Obama and what he has been able to do and what he has not been able to do, and where the disappointments are, and how we are trying to raise our kids feminists, and how we are dealing with the overt sexuality that is all over the news, the media, that our daughters are having to look at. I 400 kids in the kids program. I have 80 girls in the Girl Brigade. People send their kids to me who are feminist women because they want their kids to be raised in a feminist setting. So I have a very active and very committed (19)60s-2009 life that is very connected to the original impulses there. Our city council in San Francisco is radical. We have the biggest gay lesbian population in Oakland in the whole country. Gay men run San Francisco. It is happening. And we are- it is still living it. We are still living it in Northern California. Also, a ton of money though, and there all is a lot of over-consumerism, I will say that. But a lot of people have the same values in Northern California. SM (01:00:56): Would you say San Francisco... I lived out there and I know how important it is. I felt great out there because just about every issue is discussed. KK (01:01:07): Openly. SM (01:01:07): I mean openly and Jesus, there is a sense of community out there, and a community with a sense of what the (19)60s tried to do, to create a sense of community where people were around people that agreed with them or disagreed with them. Would you say that, when you look at the United States, that San Francisco is the one area that is still like the (19)60s? KK (01:01:28): Yes, I would say so. SM (01:01:31): One of the things that I found very interesting in looking at your background was you did a program called Women Against War after 9/11. KK (01:01:42): Yes. SM (01:01:42): And that you performed in the facility where the United Nations Charter was signed? KK (01:01:49): Yes. SM (01:01:52): Wow. To me, that is a wow experience. Can you explain that? A little bit about that experience? KK (01:01:58): Well, the first thing we did was, the anniversary of 9/11, we did a women against war event because it was when Bush was beating the war drums. And we kind of did it in collaboration with Code Pink, and we had Dance Brigade and Holly Near, and [inaudible] and Naomi Newton, all kinds of women artists I cannot even forget. And then in the spring, right before Bush announced the war I think, we went up to Sonoma and went down to Santa Cruz. And then on the anniversary of war four years later, we did the whole concert again. And these were very well attended events of women, mostly from women's music network cultural things. And they were strong anti-war events to give a voice to women who were trying to think about the whole thing in a very different way. And the fact that it was at the [inaudible] Theater was that much more interesting. It made it have more depth, stuff like that. SM (01:03:17): Well, I tell you, Eleanor Roosevelt would probably have been in the room and giving you high-fives, because this is the 125th anniversary of her birth. KK (01:03:28): Oh, really? SM (01:03:29): Yes. It was the 10th of December is when she was born, 125 years ago, because I think what you do is what she would be so pleased with. I do not know if there is any way you can link up with the Eleanor Roosevelt papers, or with Alita Black, to do something because what you do is what she was all about? KK (01:03:52): Right, yeah. SM (01:03:55): And I would probably have to say that her spirit was probably in the room that night. KK (01:04:00): Yeah. Oh, that is nice [inaudible]. SM (01:04:02): No, I really believe that, because I am a big Eleanor Roosevelt fan and I have done a lot of studying, and we have done programs on her. Oftentimes, the best history books are written 50 years after an event, and of course are a period. Like, World War Two, the best ones have come out in the last 10 years. When the sociologists and historians 50 years from now write about the Boomer generation, what do you think they will say? KK (01:04:38): It is 50 years from now? SM (01:04:40): Yes, 50 years from now? Or even after all the Boomers have passed away? KK (01:04:46): It depends on what happens in the next five years around the environment. I do not [inaudible] talk about them in 50 years so all of what is happening in the world with the demise of capitalism and the disruption of United States' number one imperial power, and all of those things that are going on, on top of the fact that we have no idea if we are going to be able to maintain our food belts inside the United States and all of that. So let us assume that something... I really believe that what happened in the (19)60s was trying to rectify contemporary culture, contemporary history. And contemporary history, I would mean probably the last 500 years of history, the founding of the United States, the beginning of the slave trade, all of that. I would say that last 500 years is contemporary history. And really the hippies, the Boomer generation, rights, and international too, France, they had a big wake-up in France and England, and Western civilization had to really sit back and look at itself. And that was a moment when western civilization had to look at itself in the mirror and the mirror cracked, and we have been reeling from that ever since. SM (01:06:11): Wow. One of the questions I want to ask too, is- KK (01:06:16): That is a good thing. That is where I feel like that was so important that that happened. SM (01:06:25): In my last interview with Mr. Hayes, he mentioned that many Boomers have gone on to take the leads in many corporations as CEOs and all the other things, and there is positives and negatives with what they have done. But the question I want to ask is about universities. The university, the free speech movement, was in California back in (19)64, and I think universities learned a lot from that experience in terms of students and student empowerment. But today, most of the universities are being run by Boomers. And this is my thought. I think today's leaders in higher education are afraid of activists, not volunteers now, because volunteerism is so crucial. But they are afraid of activism coming again on university campuses like it is at Berkeley right now, because it sends messages back that there is disruption on the campus. And when there is disruption on the campus, parents are a little uneasy and they do not want their kids to go there, and they will take their kids out of school. And so they do not want any remembrance of that time, and I think what is happening at Berkeley and wherever there is activism is scary to them, and they are Boomers and they knew about it. And so a lot of the people that run the universities today are both Boomers and generation X-ers, the group have followed them. Do you think universities learned anything from the (19)60s, especially with respect to student protest or activism? KK (01:07:59): Bring in the police faster. SM (01:08:01): Yeah. Pardon? KK (01:08:03): Bring in the police faster. SM (01:08:05): Oh, you think? KK (01:08:06): Less tolerance. SM (01:08:08): Yeah. Am I right in thinking this? KK (01:08:13): Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think everybody's thing is, the (19)60s was sort of unprepared. What happened in the (19)60s, they were not prepared for, and now they are prepared. Now they have SWAT teams. Now they bring them in quicker, they break it up faster. They have less tolerance. When the Boomers took over ideologically, a lot of the parents also collapsed, because they were living in unhappy marriages. They were all alcoholic and drug-addicted. So everybody kind of rolled their heads together. I think now they maneuver much quicker to [inaudible]. So I think that is what is happening. SM (01:08:57): I want to go back to your roots again, because each of these interviews is not only about general questions about the generation, but it is about each of the individuals, too. I know you already mentioned about the influence in your high school, the hippies and all the other stuff, but what was it growing up in Cincinnati in the 1960s and (19)70s, and maybe late (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, that made you who you are? KK (01:09:24): My parents, my mother and my father. My mother has her own wild, very free spirit. And she was personally very liberated on a lot of levels, so she modeled that. And my parents were young, and I do not know. I feel like it sort of was [inaudible] fate, sort of. And I think that I was lucky enough to be an artist, and I have a certain kind of inquisitive mind and a really good memory. So I always wanted to be putting things together and understand what my own... trying to understand myself and my... because, like what I said earlier, I had a rough high school experience. I got into a lot of trouble. It all backfired. I got busted, had all kinds of own personal traumas during that time. I almost flunked out of school. I got suspended all the time, but my energy was not really channeled. It was more reactive. I was very reactive as a kid. And so I feel like having experience on top of the education of what was happening around me, and then going into the collective model, I do not know, I just feel like it all unfolded in a really great way. And I still am kind of a hippie. I identify with being a hippie, and I identify with it as a good thing. When I say I am a hippie, people say, "Oh, you are not a hippie." People have a bad idea about the hippies did not do anything. But what I mean is I am a counterculture Boomer girl. I say that I am on the baby on the tail end. I was born in (19)53, and I was not in college during the height of the whole thing. I was in high school. That is experience, too. I did not have the personal freedom. I still had to be home at 11 o'clock and all of that. I did not have that experience that college people had. SM (01:11:30): How do you respond to those people that say, "Oh, the hippies were irresponsible, laying around, having sex and not really responsible." KK (01:11:39): I do not believe that. SM (01:11:40): Okay. There people that say that. And now the yippies were the more political wing, but they were more into theater. KK (01:11:47): Yeah. I think of the movement. I do not think it is necessary to pick one part of the movement out to criticize. It all supported everything. And even Carter, the whole thing. When we had the energy crisis, Carter told everybody to put on a sweater, turn the heat down and put on a sweater. Reagan came in and told everybody to jack up the heat, work harder, snort cocaine and work 80 hours a week, and get cars in your garage, and zoom, and we went into the lifestyles of the rich and famous. And in the (19)70s, the best movie was... What was the name of that movie where that young boy was in love with that 80-year-old? Harold and Maud? SM (01:12:31): Oh yeah. KK (01:12:31): It went from Harold and Maud into that Michael Douglas film where she boiled the rabbit alive, Fatal Attraction. That is the flip that happened. We went from peace and love and warmth and comradery into psychopathic behavior in our relationships. That was like 1981-82, or (19)86 or (19)87 when that killing the rabbit movie came out, when Michael Douglass did that. And that set stage for the rest of our culture. We never went back to Harold and Maud, and that is what I am talking about. There was a head space that was created and we were not able to maintain it. Some of us still hold it, and we are fighting, basically, a loose battle at this point. We are not going to get out of it. That is my feeling. My feeling is the polar ice caps are going to melt and it is going to be mass migration over six or seven years, like that. SM (01:13:32): If that happens, we are in deep trouble. I got two more questions and I will be done. One is, again, to go back to the arts, you are in dance, of course there is dance theater, there is movies, TV, and painting, and sculpture, and all the other things. What was it about the arts in the (19)60s and early (19)70s that was so unique? And give some examples of how not only dance, but theater and- KK (01:13:57): Everything with the Living Theater was really big. San Francisco [inaudible] Group was really big. There was all of that European theater that was really important. The music, I have talked about the music a lot. The music really held us all together. Then there was all the poetry that came out. There was a lot of... People are really dancing now in a way that I do not think they ever have before with television picking up on it so much. But, again, a lot of it was collective. A lot of it was political. A lot of it was oriented around demonstrations, which is still happening. Every movement has had its poets and its artists, from the New Song movement in Latin America and Chile, and nueva trova, and all of that. So I think every movement has this. SM (01:14:53): And, of course, Andy Warhol and Peter Max were big names in that era with their paintings. You ran against Nancy Pelosi in the primary. KK (01:15:06): Yes. SM (01:15:07): And, of course, she is a stalwart in the Democratic Party. She is part of the established Democratic Party. That took a lot of courage. And when did you decide to do it? And why did you decide to do it? KK (01:15:22): Well, part of the reason I decided to do it was everybody always told me I should run for office because I am so opinionated and he generally talk pretty well. And I have kind of a personality for making speeches and stuff like that. So that is probably the main reason I did it is people kept saying to do it, do it. I learned a lot. I did not really know what I was doing at all. And the unfortunate thing is she was poised to be Speaker of the House, which I did not really get that that was going to happen. So once that became clear, I knew I was never going to get any real traction. And I wanted to raise the issues against the war, and I really thought that Bush should be impeached. I never understood why they did not impeach him. I feel like without an impeachment, you do not have any barometer for justice. That was a terrible, terrible mistake on the Democratic Party not to impeach him. And I have been obsessed about the polar ice caps melting for the last 15 years. So, I raised that in the campaign. That was before Al Gore put out his movie. So again, global warming, war, some people are paying attention, but lots of people are not. So it was very of interesting to have that conversation when people were not really talking about it. SM (01:16:49): Yeah. I had heard rumors that the person Sheehan was going to run against her, the woman who lost her son in- KK (01:16:57): Yeah, Sheehan ran last year against her. SM (01:17:01): A lot of people thought she was going to win. KK (01:17:04): Mm-mm. SM (01:17:05): No. Next to last question, and I am done. Bill Clinton and George Bush Jr are Boomers, and they are the only Boomers that have been in the White House. President Obama is a Boomer. He was two years old the last two years of the Boomer era, (19)62. But your thoughts on when people say that Bill Clinton and George Bush Jr. are the epitome of the Boomer generation? The qualities they both possess, if you knew who they were and how they ran their government and what they did in their lives, ah, they are Boomers? KK (01:17:45): What does that mean? Be a little more specific? SM (01:17:48): Well, it is that they had the qualities that- KK (01:17:50): Is that like a character defect? Is that what you are saying? SM (01:17:55): Yeah, or something like that they epitomized some of the strengths, the qualities that were in the Boomer generation through their actions and deeds. And I just asked that. Do they typify Boomers? KK (01:18:10): Well, they are Boomers. So that is what I am trying to say is I do not think that you can... Well, okay. I would say that Bush had a very freewheeling relationship to drugs and alcohol, which I can say probably has got some, quote, Boomer characteristics to it. When I look at Hillary and Bill Clinton, I see inside of them very much affected by the Hillary and feminists and social justice advocates at one point. I think being the President of the United States is a whole other ballpark. So it is kind of hard to say what is different between Bill Clinton and Barack Obama? Would it be Bill Clinton's promiscuity? Well, Tiger Woods is not a Boomer, you know what I mean? So I do not know what about that, how you talk about that, really. SM (01:19:33): And my last question is two qualities that were defined about your dance brigade, because I am fascinated by the organization you created. In an article I read, and I think it was in the Chronicle, they gave that a lot of your work is because you are enraged and engaged. Could you explain that a little bit more? KK (01:19:59): Well, I think that part of my personality type is I am quick to anger and outrage at injustice. I am a defender of the underdog, and I often do it by getting mad. And people who know me have dealt with that about me. I have no problem getting up and saying what I do not like about what is happening. So that is probably a [inaudible]. And I am very much engaged. I pay attention and I give people feedback. And I am surrounded by lots of people all day long. I run a business. There is 400 kids that come in every week. There is 300 adults. I have seven people in the office, and we are always engaged in talking and making it work. So I am very engaged, and I am a mother, and I have my own friends, and I have a dance company, so I have a lot going on. SM (01:20:49): Is there something that you have not done that you would like to do down the road? KK (01:20:55): Reach enlightenment. SM (01:20:57): Pardon? KK (01:20:58): Reach enlightenment. SM (01:21:01): Are there any questions that I did not ask you, you thought I was going to ask in the interview that you expected? KK (01:21:08): Did you read the C Magazine interview? SM (01:21:10): Did you see the what? KK (01:21:12): Did you read the C Magazine interview? SM (01:21:14): No. KK (01:21:14): Okay, well, read that. Go [inaudible], go to the magazine and read November's issue. My dance company, Dance Brigade, is on the cover. And then there is a really good interview in there of me by Holly Near. SM (01:21:29): Oh? KK (01:21:30): Yeah, read that. And then if you have any more questions, you can call me back. Okay? SM (01:21:34): Great. And what is the magazine? KK (01:21:36): C? Just the letter C. SM (01:21:39): I have that magazine. KK (01:21:41): Okay. SM (01:21:42): I have not read it yet. It is the November issue? KK (01:21:45): Yeah. SM (01:21:46): Oh, you are in there? Okay. KK (01:21:47): Well my dance company, Dance Brigade, is on the cover. SM (01:21:52): Oh, I did not know that. KK (01:21:52): There is an interview, an article with me and Holly Near. So read that, and if you have any questions, call me back. Okay? SM (01:21:58): Super. Well, thank you very much. My condolences. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Krissy Keefer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keefer, Krissy ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Dancers; Choreographers; Social justice; Political activists--United States; Keefer, Krissy--Interviews Description An account of the resource Krissy Keefer is a dancer, choreographer, and artist-activist. In 1975, Keefer co-founded the feminist dance company, Wallflower Order. Later, in 1984, she co-founded another dance company, Dance Brigade, with Nina Fichter. She developed her own kind of dance theater which combined martial arts, female athleticism, and social justice issues. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-12-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.73 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 82:04