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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/62c085bf8fdc0d4558ba7f992896ba4d.mp3
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2011-03-08
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Ladonna Harris
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ladonna Harris is a Comanche Native American social activist and politician from Oklahoma. In addition, she is the founding member of Common Cause and the National Urban Coalition. Harris is also the president of the group Americans for Indian Opportunity. She had been an outspoken advocate on the agendas of the civil rights, feminist, environmental and world peace movements."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6535,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Ladonna Harris is a Comanche Native American social activist and politician from Oklahoma. In addition, she is the founding member of Common Cause and the National Urban Coalition. Harris is also the president of the group Americans for Indian Opportunity. She has been an outspoken advocate on the agendas of the civil rights, feminist, environmental and world peace movements.</span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Sound
Interview Format
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Audio
Duration
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191:34
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Native American; Comanche; Culture; Assimilation; Senator Joseph Tydings; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act; Baby boom generation; Stereotypes; Ethel Kennedy; Kerry Kennedy"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Native American; Comanche; Culture; Assimilation; Senator Joseph Tydings; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act; Baby boom generation; Stereotypes; Ethel Kennedy; Kerry Kennedy</span>
Subject LCSH
Civil rights workers; Political activists--United States; Comanche Indians; Politicians--United States--Oklahoma; National Urban Coalition (U.S.); Americans for Indian Opportunity; Harris, Ladonna--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Ladonna Harris
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 8 March 2011
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
Testing one, two. And could you describe your upbringing and the importance that being a part of two cultures played in your life? Because I know your parents were, one was from Irish background, I believe, and one was Comanche?
LH (00:00:23):
Yes.
SM (00:00:24):
So-
LH (00:00:26):
Well, my Comanche side overrode my Irish side because my father left to California like all the good Okies did at that time to try to find work. And so when I was just a baby, he and his folks, all of his mother and sisters all went Bakersville, California, which was kind of the whole, The Grapes of Wrath, I guess. They were not quite that bad off because they were able to buy a little motel and use it for resources. But he never came back to Oklahoma. So I heard from him, periodically. I never really got to know him. So, my whole upbringing was Comanche until I started school.
SM (00:01:18):
What was it like growing up in the (19)30s, being Native American background at that particular time?
LH (00:01:27):
Well, in relative terms, my grandfather, my Comanche grandfather, was well off because his father was a Spanish [inaudible]. And during when they allotted the Comanche land to the Comanches, he put all of his children's lands together. So, we had a large with several, it was 180 acres.
SM (00:01:57):
Wow.
LH (00:01:57):
160 acres, excuse me, 160 acres. And then each allotment, each person that was alive at that time got that. And so he put his sibling's land together and my grandfather then farmed it, which was not the Comanche way necessarily. But what was interesting was, that my grandmother was the second Comanche to be converted it to Christianity. So that was kind of the difference between us in the growing up. My grandfather was, he had eagle medicine and then took up peyote as part of his medicine way. And so, I grew up going to... grandfather driving me to church, driving us all to church, and going to church services. And he would sit out in the car. And then, after the church was over, we would visit around with people and then go home. And then he would sing his peyote songs in the evening as the sun was going down and he could cure certain illnesses with his peyote medicine. So that was kind of the atmosphere I grew up in, and we did not know that there was a Depression going on because we were pretty self-sufficient. By that time the grandfather had gotten... and my uncle lived close by and they had farmed together. And so that we had reproduced things. And so relatively, we were better off than say, French folks, who were kind of migrant, not migrant workers so much as, but sharecroppers. And he lived across the creek, but I never knew him at that time growing up. So, we just played on the creek, had lots to eat, we had all kinds of farm animals and grandmother had a garden. And we went to town on a Saturday and took milk and eggs and whatever that grandmother had to produce to take into town for trade. And it was a weird town, not weird, but it was a weird situation. In Temple, Oklahoma, there was a big department store that two brothers built right there in the flat plains of Oklahoma and Cotton County where there was not a population, but it worked. People from all around the region came and traded there. They had from cars to dry goods to everything, farm implements. So it was kind of like one stop shopping. And it was kind of fun to go to town and they would drop off the produce and grandmother would get money for a produce and give us some change to go to the movies and the Lone Ranger and all of those crazy Indians, kind of. So short subjects.
SM (00:05:16):
And Tom Mix was big then, was not he? Tom Mix-
LH (00:05:18):
Tom Mix and...
SM (00:05:18):
Gene Autry.
LH (00:05:18):
Gene Autry.
SM (00:05:18):
Yeah.
LH (00:05:27):
Lone Ranger was much later because he had an Indian's house. And... Go ahead.
SM (00:05:30):
Yeah, you are very proud of your Comanche heritage and could you give a little history about the Comanche heritage with respect to their traditions, cultures, and history?
LH (00:05:45):
Well, they just recently came... a book has come out talking about the Comanche Empire. And because of our ability, we came out of the north, out of the Shoshone from... We were related to the Shoshones, and we came because our family story is that they had a great illness outbreak. So we came south and then dominated and got the Spanish horse and dominated the plain. And they called it the Comanche Empire. There is no reason the author did with prejudice, with Western educational knowledge. So, he really investigated it and said that we were the only tribe in the United States that dealt with the Spanish, the French. We actually made treaties at different times, trade treaties with these different governments and then the Mexican government and the US government that we had actually worked with that many countries, nationalities and countries. So, that we dominated the plains and even came over the mountains here to New Mexico and that every tribe here has a Comanche dance, recognizing the... acknowledging the power of the Comanche. And the Hispanics have a theater performance about the Comanche, so that we had a great impact in this part of the country. So, from Colorado to down into Old Mexico, to over to Louisiana where we dealt with the French and up to Arkansas and Missouri corner, that corner. So, we dominated those because we became the horseman and we created, I mean, we embraced change more rapidly. When the Anglos killed off of the buffalo, we created a trade route. And what we would do, we would go down to Old Mexico and steal horses and come back and sell them to the New Mexican Hispanics, the Spaniards here in New Mexico, because they were treated... Since they did not find gold and precious everything in New Mexico, the Spanish in Old Mexico did not pay much attention to them so that they were very well... they did not have very many things to continue their lives. So, we developed a trade system and we were also very fierce. And we burned down Santa Fe a couple of times and we have great stories about our fierceness. And that when you saw a Comanche footprint, you could tell it was Comanche because it had a fringe that it would come across it and looked like a snake walked across the foot.
SM (00:09:05):
Oh, wow.
LH (00:09:08):
And so we were greatly admired in some ways and feared in others. We also stole children, and I have got a lot of that history of Spanish grandfather on one side and the Mexican Indian grandfather of my grandmother's, so that most of the Comanche have that kind of history that somebody in their family were.
SM (00:09:40):
And at it is high point, how many Comanches were there?
LH (00:09:46):
You know what? I will have to look that up because I have heard it and then I cannot remember. Now I know that there are 4,100 of us. And that is really a growing number. I think all tribes have grown in this decade. But we were very proud. Growing up with my grandparents, they were old enough to remember the old way and knew, but also smart enough to know how to deal with the contemporary situation. And whereas my mother, on the other hand, was really the transitional person who had to really make real hard changes like Indian boarding school. Though my grandparents went into Indian boarding school. They both got out of them before they were destroyed by the boarding school system, grandfather running away and grandmother having to go back to help get her aunt who was sick had go take care of her. But they got out of the Indian boarding school where they were.
SM (00:10:59):
What is the role of women in the Comanche culture? Is there a respect for women?
LH (00:11:06):
Oh, yes. And in most tribes, not matriarchal, but you inherit through your mother, and cure your mother's [inaudible] and you are our child. And inherit and they were the property owners. They owned their house, the teepees or the housing in most tribes that is how. And even in the Iroquois Nation, they had a formalized ways the dim mother's... [inaudible] what they were called. They were called pine mothers and felt that they were variations of that. But we were very much more democratic and participatorial. And the things that made the Comanches different when they came down on the plain off the mountains of Montana, that we broke up into bands, and we never were together until the after the Civil War. All of the military that was left in the Civil War came down to dominate us. And the Comanche powers and the Cheyenne, and they were all looking... the generals were all looking like... Oh, what the General's name?
SM (00:12:33):
Custer?
LH (00:12:34):
Custer. Yes. Like Custer, they all wanted another star on their...
SM (00:12:39):
Oh wow.
LH (00:12:40):
And so they built with them to help with the Buffalo shelter, built Forts from Fort [inaudible 00:12:46] to New Mexico. And in order to control us because the regular military did not until all of them had the guns from the Civil War and the people who wanted to go gain... What am I trying to say? Gain recognition or gain... go up in the military, like Custer.
SM (00:13:23):
Before I get into your high school years, if you could name some of the leaders of the Comanche in the 1800s or early 1900s. We all know about Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, but were there ones that really stood out?
LH (00:13:40):
Quanah Parker. Well see, that is the difference too than the other tribes. We did not have one Chief over all of them. Each band had different leaders. And it was that if people followed you, then you were a leader. There was not a leader who was inherited the position. There was not a leader who was selected by the group. Each person had certain divisions of responsibility. Like there were the elders who decided where we would move to. There were groups who would protect us to see that we were secure when we camped out. They all had different responsibilities. And so, for instance, if it said that when a person, particularly a man, would need to go on a hunting trip, he would send his nephew up to the camp and say that so-and-so is going to go down into Texas to either raid or to hunt buffalo, and if you want to come, join him under the tree at this section before sunset. So, if people came, they followed him because he had the right characteristics of a good leader, of a person who was generous, mostly, that was the first most important thing. Generous and was seasoned in combat or knew how to deal responsibly with other people's lives. And so that people followed you. So that we did not have... We had a transition leader that the government picked out for us, which was Quanah Parker. And he was a... After we were brought to the reservation, it's like we do today, when we go to Afghanistan, we have to have appoint some leader, one person. And when they're all tribal people, we always say, if the State Department understood Native Americans, they would understand how to deal with Afghanistan and other countries where tribal people exist. And so, what they do, just like they have done in Afghanistan, put this guy up who is corrupt. Well, this was not the case in Parker's place, but installed somebody so that was the person they had to make a deal with. And so that all of these different bands, there were about nine different bands of us who roamed all over those plains and rarely ever got together in one place. And so that it was... There's a book called On Being Comanche. And for a long time, Western anthropologists and people who studied different cultures never said that Comanche did not have any structure, so therefore they were not valuable. But there was value in, well, we did have structure, but it just did not conform to Western value systems, so they could not interpret it. Until just more recently seeing how valuable it was and how that the fact that we supposedly chose disorganized, that we could control the whole southern plains from Kansas down into Old Mexico. And so that they are now at a whole new different viewpoint of it. And my grandfather's father was a captive who became a War Chief, and that meant that people followed him during battle because he was brave. And it is the whole idea of being more, I say we're more democratic in participatorial than what we now refer to as democracy. Because all people were valued. The difference about tribal people is that we are communal and that we live, we're collected, and that the land we own, we own collectively. And the resources that come from those lands that are divided up amongst us. So that is so different than the capitalist society.
SM (00:18:20):
Is that still present today?
LH (00:18:23):
Yes.
SM (00:18:24):
So you kept it. Because when you read the history of Native Americans and different tribes, one of the pressures that you have always seen in America is Americanized. You must become Americanized. And that was one of the battles that I think of, at least from my study, culture meant a lot.
LH (00:18:49):
Absolutely. And that is what those Indian boarding schools and the missionary, they tried all these different things and they had a policy of... What do I want to say? Of assimilating. The federal policy was to assimilate into the American society where we would no longer exist. And then probably they could disband the treaties and what lands and things that we did have, because every time we would have land, like in Oklahoma, they had found oil there, then they would open it up for white settlement. So those kinds of things, but other people of color are integrated, but we were assimilated. So totally different approach to it. So that they used every method that they could think of to assimilate us, which was very hard and very difficult for my mother.
SM (00:19:59):
Yeah, I noticed that... Well, I have some questions that will follow up on this in a minute or so, but what were your high school years like? I know you met your future husband, Senator Fred Harris. How did you meet him and then fall in love and get married? And I know you played a very important role in getting him through college too. So just a little bit about that.
LH (00:20:29):
Well, I had lived in Bethany, Oklahoma, which was a suburb of Oklahoma City, but my sister was working for the... during World War I, I think, working for an airplane, Boeing airplane, putting airplanes together. So I was taking care of my little niece in the summertime. And then I just stayed over and went to school there a couple of years. And then I moved back to Walters. So when I moved back to Walters, my aunt was going to school there, and I asked her, "Well, who is the student president?" And she said, "Freddy. Freddy Ray," she said. She pointed him out. And I said, "Ooh, him?" And then later, he took the initiative and finally we started dating. But it was interesting, really. I was convinced that he must have been... He told me he worked for The Walters Herald, and The Walters Herald was our local newspaper and I just saw that he was like... I visualized him being a reporter, but of course he was a printer. But anyway, we had great fun. So, we became very close, got married, and probably my senior year he went off to college. We got married the next year, and then, which was the sign of the time that women were mostly, they were coming back from Korea. [inaudible] would come back from Korea, and wives were working and putting their husband... I guess, still the veterans from World War II who were going back to school so that they had a large segment of wives and families there. And we lived very, very, very simply, I guess. Folks would give us produce from the farm. My mother would buy clothes from me. And then we had Catherine first year and our first child. But I did not really have that much skill just coming out of high school but I was able to find enough work to... And then we lived in a greenhouse where we could grow flowers to pay for our rent, and then we would have some money to make. And then he would get scholarships. He was smart enough to get scholarships all through undergraduate and into law school. So, we just became... And so in his classwork, he shared what he learned with me. And then in law school, all of the law students, his class, would come over and study at our house, because he had great notes and they could discuss it. And so that I was a part of all of his learning experience, although I did not take the classes. And I was very dyslexic as well, and impaired learning going through the public-school system and through educational systems so I had to learn other kinds of ways. But I managed to hold down jobs and work. And then we went, after he graduated from law school, he immediately went into this law firm. And then there was a death of [inaudible]. But we became real partners in our relation... interdependent on each other in our relationship. And it went on for 31 years of existence. So, I think...
SM (00:24:29):
You see, in a sense, that your marriage was similar to just about all the marriages of that period where family and husband came first, and the wife sacrificed is basically for their husband and family. Is that true?
LH (00:24:46):
That is right.
SM (00:24:47):
Yep.
LH (00:24:48):
That is right. But the interesting part, from my Comanche background, one of the things that I learned, so I would not get my feelings hurt, I would study people and figure them out, and figure out how to deal with them in a way that they were comfortable with. So it was a skill I learned in high school, actually, to get through high school. I wanted to belong to this whole high school sorority. I would figure her all of that out and get myself in there. I was the first Indian person to be nominated for Football Queen and all those little things that... the popular things in high school. So, that was unique. And then after he graduated from law school, but even in his classes, he shared with me in a different kind of way. Like with his botany classes, we would go out and look at the trees and he would explain them to me as he was learning it. And then in anthropology, he said he took anthropology so he could understand me better. And then he became quite involved in Comanche culture. He can still sing today and still very well remembered in the Comanche. [inaudible] he does not miss being married to me. He misses being part of the Comanche family. But it was a fascinating, wonderful experience. And then when he ran for state senate, well, when he was in law school, he ran for the House of Representatives, and he would be 21 years old when he got sworn in, and he ran against the 68-year-old County Commissioner and lost by 16 votes, I think.
SM (00:27:07):
Wow.
LH (00:27:08):
So that was down in Cotton County, our old home, and then the ran for Senate to Creek County, Cotton County, and Comanche County. And we organized and just worked ourselves. And we had friends who made homemade posters. And television had just come in too. And I was the first wife that would appear on television. I was the first wife who would go to Oklahoma State legislature, and we were known as Freddy and the Indian by the older members of the-
SM (00:27:41):
Oh my gosh.
LH (00:27:44):
And because it was enduring. That was an enduring thing for me.
SM (00:27:49):
I noticed, I saw you were on the Dick Cavett Show once, and Dick Cavett was speaking to both of you then, but he immediately went to talk to you because you were well known, because you were the wife of a Senator in Washington, and you were getting more press than your husband. And you have probably seen that on YouTube.
LH (00:28:09):
Oh yeah.
SM (00:28:13):
What were your activities on behalf of Native Americans prior to going to DC?
LH (00:28:19):
Well, when Fred went off to the State Senate, I had too much time on my hand. I had two children though, but I had lots of relatives and friends who helped babysit for me. So what we did, I went to the University of Oklahoma that Fred was supposed to go to in the Southwest Center for Human Relations, put on the program to see about white-Black relations in Oklahoma. And it was early in the (19)60s before the [inaudible] in the South. And so, I said, " What about the Native Americans in Oklahoma?" And they said, "Oh, they do not have problems. The Bureau of Indian Affairs is taking care of them." And just said, "They're the problem. They're part of the problem, the major part of the problem." And I was so frustrated that I could not explain to them. They had no knowledge, these were the cream of the crop, OU University. And they had no idea about what was happening to Indians in Oklahoma. And we had 36 different tribes in Oklahoma, but some were pushed in for the [inaudible] from the eastern side of the state. And then the plains people were on the western side of the state. And so, I cried. I got so frustrated because I could not get them to understand what the problems were. So I burst into tears and that embarrassed them. So they started coming down to... They came to our house in Lawton, Oklahoma from Norman. And once a week [inaudible] seen people together and they began to articulate our own needs, mostly were Comanche relatives of mine. And then we organized and organized part of the state, the tribes on the western part of the state went over to the east-
SM (00:30:27):
Could you speak up a little bit too, please?
LH (00:30:29):
Okay. We organized the western side of the states, which mostly were plains tribes. And then we moved over to the eastern part of the state. And we ran into a lot of trouble that we did not realize. Because there were no books or nothing published about how to work in race relations or even about Blacks, much less Indians. But we organized, and because we had such high dropout rate, 75 percent dropout rates in some of our schools, so that was something we could organize around. And so, we organized the first Indian statewide organization of all of the 36 tribes in Oklahoma. And that was a major accomplishment. And then by that time, Fred was in the [inaudible] and we were able to get the war on poverty, our charter, and Chris Mondale could come to Oklahoma [inaudible]. And Ron Bart came to Oklahoma to talk to our youth. And so, I was organizing the tribes and we changed policy. The tribes in the east, the federal government is still appointing their leadership. But we asked them why they let them do-do that, and they tried... turned it around. And that really took a lot of power away from members of the Congress, which we did not realize at the time, because the Congress would recommend and they would...
LH (00:32:00):
...would recommend [inaudible] they would get somebody that they liked with. The Congress members were all friends [inaudible] because [inaudible] the US Senate by then. One day a week, we were doing that, and the other day a week, we were integrating [inaudible]. We had the railroad track that had the Black community on one side and the rest of us on the other. One of my babysitters was African American. I saw her picketing at this theater and I said, "My goodness. Why in the world are we letting that happen?" And so, one day a week we would integrate African Americans and one day a week we would stop assimilating.
SM (00:33:01):
Yes. Different word.
LH (00:33:02):
It was interesting. Interesting thing to go on working both sides in the different. They were the same, but had this different ending that the folks wanted. So we were very, very good about integrating Lawton. The [inaudible] we used to tease him. He was on the mayor's committee and they could not get anything done. But our group was kind of an ad hoc group that we would find somebody who knew this restaurant owner and go and talk to them. We had the churches involved. Finally, we had one holdout. We got the military, Fort Sill, military college off base so that the soldiers could not go there and that was their main constituency or patron. So, they finally gave up and we integrated the whole town. Had one holdout, which was a swimming pool. We finally closed them down rather than them integrate. So...
SM (00:34:05):
This is [inaudible]
LH (00:34:05):
But we were very successful in Lawton in integrating. This was just at the time of the sit-ins in the South.
SM (00:34:11):
What year was this?
LH (00:34:18):
Oh, I am so...
SM (00:34:18):
(19)60s, (19)61, (19)62, or?
LH (00:34:18):
Yeah.
SM (00:34:18):
Yeah?
LH (00:34:18):
In that time period. I will make sure. I cannot think chronologically. I am... part of my...
SM (00:34:28):
What is interesting about the kids, I am one of them, growing up in the (19)50s, is that what the history of Native Americans or the American Indian is, they used to say all the time on television, from the Civil War till about the end of the (19)50s, what you learned about, basically, was a history of broken treaties between the government and various tribes. I know there's the one with U.S. Grant was well known in history books, perceptions that Native Americans were forced onto reservations, they lost their land, had to battle over everything with people coming West. You had to constantly fight and battle for everything. You lost the buffalo. Then on top of that, you had this perception out there that many Native Americans were drunks, were derelicts, and the labels being put on a population by the white population.
LH (00:35:43):
We were the vanishing race, was even part of the [inaudible].
SM (00:35:46):
Yeah.
LH (00:35:47):
We even got national reports that we were vanishing. But what happened during the civil rights and the War on Poverty Program, we came alive and changed our whole methodology. The First Americans, the Native Americans, we changed the terminology to help people see us differently. Then this lazy, drunk Indian thing, though alcohol was a major issue, but that was something that the press would focus on it. Every Thanksgiving, there would be a story about poor old Pine Ridge, of course it still is one of the poorest counties in the country, but they would go and focus on them and their poverty level, whereas the rest of the country was not that bad. But we would be all stereotyped into that Pine Ridge drunk Indian syndrome. It still kind of goes on that way. But the press has changed quite a bit, mostly because the Native Americans got organized under the War on Poverty Program, Johnson. People say, "Well, it did not work." But it worked for the Indians. For instance, in Oklahoma, because we did not have reservations, we do not have reservations; we have individual land allotments and tribally-owned land. They were not called reservation. So, we were not able to get funding from the War on Poverty Program because we did not have reservations. That was some termination policy made in Washington. Soon as we moved to Washington and got with Art Schriver and became an advisor to our tribe. He changed the policy because what the money was going to the counties and the counties were the ones who would discriminate against Indians and they would not be get any of the funds to grow and help themselves. So, we changed that policy. Then we worked to change and break many policies. What we did, we used the money from the War on Poverty to undermine the Department of Interior's control over us. They were still acting like colonial government and had control of our lives from childhood to adulthood and controlled our resources and all of those things. So, we organized. We organized Americans for Indian Opportunity. So, we had a national organization then as well as the Oklahoma one. And we learned from that Oklahoma experience, was not an organized, and then the War on Poverty gave us a platform and we saw Schriver's support and Lyndon Johnson. We really made a lot of gain. Interestingly enough, we made a lot of gain under Nixon, who had another strange relationship with Indians that shows him to be pro-Indian Indian with all of his other faults.
SM (00:39:17):
But your husband had mentioned, I remember last summer in an interview, the Taos Pueblo?
LH (00:39:25):
Mm-hmm. Taos Blue Lake.
SM (00:39:26):
Yeah. That that is one major thing that you did in your life.
LH (00:39:31):
Yeah.
SM (00:39:31):
And also, the Menominee tribe...
LH (00:39:34):
Gained recognition.
SM (00:39:35):
...gained recognition. Could you tell a little bit about those two? Because those are supposedly very historic events in Native American history.
LH (00:39:42):
Yes. Well, the government took the land that was designated to the Taos people. They took a part of the land which was part of their creation story, that they came from under this lake at the volcanic crater. It got way up in the mountain there above their pueblo. They took it over and let cattle run and people could use it. So, it was very painful for the tribe to see their sacred site being decimated. And they fought for 60 years. Some reason they came to Fred, I guess because they knew that he was married to an Indian. Fred, of course, called me in and then we all met with them, and Fred told the staff said, "If we do not do anything, we're going to help these folks." It was a very interesting... But this is how we worked together so well. Because by that time I had been involved with the Urban League, and because of my work in civil rights, I was known in the Black community as well as the Indian community. And then started women's rights as well, too. But by that time, women's rights were not the big issue of the day. So, we made it a civil rights issue. That was my part of the job. He had to convince the Congress, and he could not get it out of the committee because Senator Anderson from New Mexico was against it. [inaudible] go against a sitting Senator. He told Fred that, "I do not mess with your Indians and you do not mess with mine, and we're not your Indian's senator." So, they started this struggle. Then I had a young friend who became a White House intern and White House fellow, and she got very interested in the issue, and I became her mentor. She got me into the Lynn Garment and Nixon. The only picture of Nixon and people of color were with the Taos people, and it went all around the world and it made him look like he was really for brown people. So, I says, "I think they will owe the Taos people [inaudible] for your election." And he agreed. He called the Republican side of the Senate and said that the White House going to make a non-partisan bill and to work with Fred. And so he did. He said, "Come on over." And I went over. So, they sent me over and he gave a staff person to work with me and Fred, and then I would go and work with maybe the civil rights issue, not just an Indian issue. I got all the civil rights groups, labor and other people to support it outside. But Fred had to get it out of committee, which was where Anderson was ahead of that committee. So, that is how we would work [inaudible] could work both sides of any issue and make it happen. And that was the success of it. There were so many funny stories in that, getting there with Fred was the knothole gang with Rich Mandell and by Bobby Kennedy. We lived right around the corner from Hickory Hill. McLane got to be friends with them. And that is how I got to know Schriver so well, and we would go up Anisburg as well. So anyway, there were four of them that were all came to the Senate at the same time and worked together as a group, called themselves the Knothole Gang. But Congress passed the Taos Blue Lake. That was a great first victory of any Indian reclaiming their land, getting their land back. So, that was why it was so historical. Then the next one that was there was the Menominee that had been terminated. That was during the Eisenhower administration, though Eisenhower himself was not for it, but the study came out and he just let it happen. That was that vanishing race syndrome. So, they were terminating tribes, which means they were no longer tribes; they would just be a part of the county or whatever community they were in. And so they had terminated the Menominees when they got a big land settlement. They told them that they could not get their settlement money until they terminated themselves. So some of them did, some of them voted, about half of them. Anyway, it was poorly done... carefully done. Ada Deer, who was the Menominee woman who came and told us that, and I was concerned. I could not see the Congress ever changing their mind on termination. But she worked and she stayed with us most of the time and ride in with us and then walk [inaudible] calls to Congress and get somebody, and then we would have a reception for the Menominee. People would come into town to lobby their Congressmen. Just doing things like that to bring attention to the issue. Not only did they reinstate the Menominees as a tribe; Congress voted that they would never use termination as their national policy because it was so destructive. So, that was turning around old policy, the past into contemporary more understanding of what it was like. Then there was another piece of that with the Alaskan claims. The Alaskan claims would not be settled. So, they came to Fred again. But the lawyers, I have forgotten to ask who the lawyers were who were for the tribe, were going to agree for, what, 10 million acres and a whole bunch of money. Then the Eskimos way up where the oil was, and they discovered oil there, and that is why they finally decided they have to settle with the Natives in order to produce that oil. So, these people came to Fred and said that "we were subsistence. We live off the land, and land is more important than the money." So, Fred introduced legislation for 60 million acres and the White House and their lawyers had agreed to 10 million acres. But we got enough support where they got 40 million acres and a whole bunch of money...
SM (00:47:45):
Wow. That is...
LH (00:47:46):
... settlement. But we were not smart enough to know that they're getting [inaudible] in Alaska, made them into corporations because we did not think about how they were going to govern themselves. So, they set up corporations and they felt that they could buy the corporations and do away with the Indian profits ownership, but they still are going. Some of them are going better than others, the corporations up there. They tried to change it back to governing like we do down here.
SM (00:48:26):
Who were the Knothole Gang again?
LH (00:48:29):
Mandell, Bobby Kennedy, and Tidings.
SM (00:48:33):
Senator Tidings.
LH (00:48:35):
Uh-huh.
SM (00:48:35):
And Teddy was not part of that?
LH (00:48:37):
No.
SM (00:48:38):
Oh, okay.
LH (00:48:40):
He had already been in the Senate.
SM (00:48:43):
Yeah. And you were part of the Knothole Gang, right?
LH (00:48:46):
Yeah.
SM (00:48:47):
Behind the curtains.
LH (00:48:48):
Yeah. I drug around and plotted with them. Then Fred was chairman of the party. When Jonathan appointed me to be a... He was really doing different things. He said, "You're not owned by the Department of Interior." He appointed the first Indian to be head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. They would go to the Smithsonian and get a war staff and knock the deadhead wood out of the Department of Interior. So, with that kind of attitude, then he appoint me to the Indian Opportunities Council, where I was the only woman and non-elected leader to sit on it. Then, of course, after the war came along, I mean, not that it is already there, but the war just destroyed all those good works that the civil rights movement and all the things that we were doing.
SM (00:49:56):
I have a question here, which is just based on a perception as a white kid growing up in the late (19)40s... Well, actually the (19)50s, early (19)60s, because this is what white boomer kids became, and this is how they entertained themselves in the (19)50s. Bear with me as I just give these descriptions, and it gets to a question here. The boomer perceptions in the late (19)50s and early (19)60s, television and movies and comics and coloring books, everything was about cowboys and Indians. They were the biggest toys. There were outfits, TV shows. Indians were always the bad guys. Saturday morning movies was very big, would be Westerns for kids. Then the adult movies were in the afternoon and the evening. TV had a Lone Ranger with a very good Native American in Tonto. But the majority of the TV shows, Native Americans were portrayed as the bad guy or the enemy or the evil one. Every white boomer had played cowboys and Indians, never thinking about the true meaning of what they were doing as youngsters.
LH (00:51:20):
Uh-huh. It is a stereotype.
SM (00:51:23):
Pardon?
LH (00:51:24):
They continued the stereotype.
SM (00:51:29):
Yes. Did these experiences shape many attitudes of the boomers to the point that when they matured in the early (19)60s and late (19)60s and (19)70s, they saw the lies and the real truths here, too, just like they saw a lot of lies throughout America because when you looked at television, you saw the stereotypes of Native Americans, but then you never saw African Americans. I think during the (19)50s, Nat King Cole had a show for six weeks. There was a show in the early (19)50s called the Amos and Andy, but it was more slapstick. You did not really get to see any African Americans until the (19)60s. So, there's a perception here, in different approaches, that African Americans were second-class citizens, and then the way they portrayed Native Americans, that they were second-class citizens. So, just your thoughts on the influence that this had on a whole generation of young people.
LH (00:52:33):
Yes. Well, where it starts is in our educational system. We do not study American history. We study Europeans coming to the Americas, and so there is no knowledge; you have no working knowledge about Native Americans until you get to college and you have to take a special course in Native American study to learn about them. So, there is no place to have an experience or a learned experience, even, about Native Americans. So, that starts the problem. Why we were so effective and our organization became so effective, is that people became so embarrassed on how little they knew. That is how we were able to get them to change the federal policies about Indians with every department having an Indian policy statement. But what the boomers did when they went through that whole Vietnam War exercise, they had a little broader mind experience, but they did not have any base of learning to fall back on. But all of our time and energy was to educate the decision makers, policy makers, and the general public. And it's still a major issue.
SM (00:54:06):
Yeah. I can remember, and you may remember this as well, but in the (19)50s, there was a cereal that came out in the early (19)50s, and it that had pictures of Native American leaders. You could the whole box up, and I still had them. That was a respectful portrayal of Native Americans. I do not know if that is Kellogg Sugar pops, but I remember I still had those. That, to me, upon my reflection was the only respectful portrayal that I ever saw of a Native American except Tonto on The Lone Ranger.
LH (00:54:43):
That is right. The next one came was... Ohm God, what is the name? What is the name? Oh, the wolf... Oh. What is the name of it?
SM (00:54:58):
On Daniel Boone?
LH (00:55:00):
No.
SM (00:55:00):
Oh.
LH (00:55:02):
Wait. No. He was not. Daniel Boone was an Indian color.
SM (00:55:08):
I mean, Ed Ames was on one of those shows. I forget, which one.
LH (00:55:13):
Yeah. All of they were just kind of marginal. We were always marginalized. Yeah. I was just trying to think of...
SM (00:55:19):
When...
LH (00:55:19):
…of the first movie that showed Indians and that they had their own language and own culture with... Why cannot I think of it?
SM (00:55:33):
I know another one where there was a sense of respect. That was on the Walt Disney. The Native American who was in a lot of the movies there. There was an advertisement of his crying, a tear was coming out. They always treated him with respect, I remember.
LH (00:55:50):
I had an opportunity to meet him in California. They honored him for his good work and his imagery.
SM (00:55:58):
When you raised your three kids in the (19)50s and early (19)60s, how did they handle these perceptions that were on TV all the time? They had to go to school with kids that had grown up and seen this. What were your kids, and how did you explain this to them as they were growing up, particularly since you were in Washington when they were probably in elementary school?
LH (00:56:25):
Catherine, the oldest, was exposed to that whole civil rights and then the beginning of Oklahomans for Indian Opportunity. So, she was knowledgeable about all these things that we were working on. When we got to Washington, she said at dinner table one night... You remember the Love case that was at the Supreme Court to decide where there were some states had laws against mixed marriages, mostly was between Blacks and whites. But this particular Love case was a Indian and a white person, I guess that was it. So, Catherine came home and said, "Mother, you and I should go to jail because you and dad are breaking the law," and we were living Northern Virginia. I said, "What do you mean?" And she said, "Well, the Love case, if we went to jail, that would really dramatize the unfairness of that law." So, we had a long talk about it at the table. My son, who was, I do not know what age. He was about 10 or 12. He said, "You mean you and dad are not married?" We had to explain it to him. But he was real proud of his great-grandmother, my grandmother, came to visit us and her Comanche clothes, but she always wore Comanche clothes. She campaigned for Fred in her Harris headliner shaw. She met Lady Bird Johnson and gave her a shaw when the Johnsons were out campaigning Oklahoma. Then, she invited us to the White House and we have pictures of grandmother. Fred said, "I am not letting y'all out of my sight. I am going with y'all to the White House." So, she gave us a tour of the White House and picture of my mother and my grandmother and Catherine and I and Fred in the Green Room with Lady Bird. She got so much attention and all the members of the Congress, and of course, Vice President Humphrey was showing her around and doing all kinds of things for her. The press wanted to interview her. They asked, "Would she be interested?" I said, " Yes." I said, "I am sure she would, and let me ask her, though." I asked her and she said, well, if I would be with her, she would. And then I said, "Sure." Because it will not be hard. You're smarter than they are. You can keep this laugh then. They asked, "Well, what do you think of Washington?" She said she had been in the White House. She had met with the vice president and every member of the Congress, practically. So, she said what impressed her the most was all these trees because we lived in the southern plains of Oklahoma and did not have any trees except on the creek banks. She said, oh, these trees were the most things that impressed her the most.
SM (00:59:44):
Oh, wow.
LH (00:59:46):
So, she just had a great, great time. The children invited her to their class to meet their teachers and their classmates. So, it was a big [inaudible] surprise that they [inaudible] her off. Then Ethel and her children, because I was teasing, their children were asking me if I lived in a teepee, and I would get after Ethel about, "Gosh, what are you teaching your kids?" [inaudible] grandmother came to visit. She invited us over for tea and all children were there, and the big old slobbery dogs. They would ask her questions. Carrie Kennedy would ask her the most questions. So, grandmother said, "I will give you an Indian name," and said the one who is always curious or always interested. So, she can tell you her Comanche name now even as a grown woman.
SM (01:00:50):
Wow.
LH (01:00:50):
She remembered that so well. That was kind of the way we lived in Washington. We were different, Fred and I. I was told, somebody asked...
SM (01:01:06):
Could you hold on one second here? I have to turn a light off here. Yeah.
LH (01:01:08):
We do not have weather like we did before. We jumped the mountain. The snow would be in the mountains, and then we would jump it and then go onto Oklahoma and have tornadoes and stuff, ice storms and rain. So all those, you just watch it go from here over the mountains to the East Coast. They are going to get some more and bad weather right now. I think Dallas is predicting, and Oklahoma, predicting tornadoes.
SM (01:01:43):
Yeah. We had snow just a couple days ago.
LH (01:01:47):
Where are you?
SM (01:01:48):
Well, I am in Philadelphia.
LH (01:01:48):
Oh, okay.
SM (01:01:51):
But we did not have much. It melted already. But my sister lives up in Binghamton, New York. Her daughter and her family lives up in Rochester. They got 26 inches two days ago, and my sister got 15.
LH (01:02:02):
And some more weather is coming their way now.
SM (01:02:09):
Yeah. It has been a crazy winter here. You can finish that story you were talking about.
LH (01:02:14):
Okay. Where were [inaudible]
SM (01:02:15):
You were talking about Ethel and the kids and...
LH (01:02:21):
Oh. Well, it was the first time she had ever flown in an airplane. It was just a really wonderful experience. Just to describe that, I always had a space, but when he was in the state Senate, I would sit on the floor of the Senate at a chair next to his desk and go to his hearings. But I was very different. I was the only wife that would go. But it made a lot of difference to the older members. They would invite us to go, the old guys who were not messing up or messing around, and they would invite us out to eat with them and help Fred go up the ladder of leadership in the Senate because he was serious. I would act as hostess to all those guys in do the ashtrays and fix them drink or do something. Then Fred would ask me, "What did I think about so-and-so?" Because I would know enough about the subject that Fred was working on to listen to what was being said. So, he would depend on my interpretation of people a lot because I studied them all my life.
SM (01:03:48):
That is what I call teamwork.
LH (01:03:50):
It was.
SM (01:03:52):
Yes.
LH (01:03:52):
He had enough Comanche language that we would tell that here comes somebody. "Here comes your friend, or here comes your enemy."
SM (01:04:01):
Yes.
LH (01:04:02):
And it just [inaudible]
LH (01:04:02):
...becomes your enemy.
SM (01:04:05):
Yes.
LH (01:04:05):
And then nobody could even pick up, it is a very soft thing. And we had teased each other in Comanche. And when he was chairman of the party, I had a room in the Watergate there, where we started Americans for Indian Opportunity, actually, when Nixon was listening, was taping them, I guess, we used to accuse one of our people for. But they would make a decision in the evening and I would always be there and ride back with Fred, listen to all of them. And then they would always, a lot of people would say, even in Oklahoma, would say, "There is [inaudible] LaDonna," because I was the first wife to ever do anything like that, be prominent. And what we found out was when we campaigned, that my presence, men would behave differently and then we would get all of his classmates in law school to come and their wives would come and it would create in a whole different environment because we had not had the women's rights movement come along yet.
SM (01:05:13):
Yes.
LH (01:05:13):
And so it was a real important thing. It changed people's behavior. And we found it as an asset. And besides, that is the way we worked and that is what we were comfortable with. And we just did it, whether it was popular or not. It became popular, then everybody.
SM (01:05:30):
Before I get into your work and yours, a lot of the appointments to various committees by President Johnson, you mentioned a couple of them already, could you discuss, what you know here, the role that Native Americans played in the Vietnam War? I know many were drafted or joined, like a lot of African Americans, to improve their circumstances in life.
LH (01:05:56):
Mm-hmm.
SM (01:05:56):
How many went? And how many died? And how were they treated upon their return, particularly into the tribes? And were they treated like Vietnam veterans all over America? Well, they were not treated very well. And were they stereotyped during their service? And I say this because I read a book once, where one of the leaders in Vietnam, at a platoon, and he put the Native American on point because he is Native American, so he must be very good at that. So that was stereotyping right there. So, I am not sure if that happened a lot. But in your experiences with Native American Vietnam vets, how have they been treated?
LH (01:06:41):
Well, in every war, we would have more Native American volunteer and go into service, percentage to our population than any other peoples in the United States. Every war. World War I. World War II. And in World War I and II, we had code talkers, not just the Navajo code talkers in the Pacific, but the Comanches had code talkers on the Normandy Beach and going into France.
SM (01:07:11):
Mm-hmm.
LH (01:07:14):
But they were never recognized. The French government honored us, the Comanches, but the US government did not, until just recently. And then everybody had died except one of them. Then next to us were Hispanics. So that it was kind of like... And you say, "Well, why would they do that?" Well, it was their homeland. They were protecting their homeland and they were always honored. We would always have feast and religious ceremonies and powwows honoring them when they came back. And I was just reading, they had a big front page, in our tribal newspaper, about our World War I veteran and naming them and they have honored them. It's a big thing. They have veterans mother... World War II started that mothers have... If your child was in the armed services, they have these mothers, I cannot remember the right title for them, where you put a flag up in your window and all of that. Well, all through the Vietnam thing, when they would come back, we would honor them. We would have a powwow and religious ceremonies around them. Dances, ceremonies around them. Returning safe, though.
SM (01:08:41):
That is really more than anybody else did in America for any vets coming back because we all know, most were not welcomed home. They just came home.
LH (01:08:52):
That is right. I have one friend who went twice. And I said, "Why in the world did you go back and volunteer again?" And he said, "Well, because it got where I had learned some, had so much experience in the first time, that all I did was keep those boys alive. And they all would figure out how to get in my platoon." And he is a lieutenant. And he said, "And my whole thing was to keep them alive." But that is why he went back the second time.
SM (01:09:34):
Was there any issues with post-traumatic stress disorder amongst the vets from the Vietnam?
LH (01:09:41):
Yes, because [inaudible].
SM (01:09:41):
Was there a good, strong support base?
LH (01:09:43):
They were always put up front, just like you described, that they were good scouts. They would be good scouts.
SM (01:09:51):
Right.
LH (01:09:52):
But of course, they never had those kinds of experience by the time Vietnam came along. Maybe World War II. I mean, One. But not since then. That was the stereotype. And then they got more Medals of Honor and anything than any other group of people, percentage of their population, too. So that was the other thing. And I do not know how we are doing in this horrible thing that we are in now.
SM (01:10:30):
Yeah. Your kids are boomers and they are defined as part of that generation that was born between (19)46 and (19)64?
LH (01:10:40):
Yes. Kathryn was in Harvard and she would bring all her Harvard kids down, who were protesting in the war, and they would bail them out with you and oh, it just would make you cry. They were getting ready for protesting. They had their blood handkerchief, their Vaseline to protect from teargas. And all of them were just awful. And my youngest daughter participated more marches than anybody in history, I think. Poor People's March. The Hispanic, Chavez's March.
SM (01:11:21):
Oh, yes.
LH (01:11:22):
Vietnam marches. And I have forgotten that. And the women's.
SM (01:11:25):
Wow. Now, your oldest was at Harvard. What year was she there? Or years?
LH (01:11:46):
She graduated a year early in school. We were just talking Sunday night.
SM (01:11:46):
Was she there when Harvard Yard happened?
LH (01:11:52):
What was Harvard Yard?
SM (01:11:52):
That is when they protested. They took over Harvard Yard. Took over the building.
LH (01:12:00):
Yeah, I guess so. The other thing, too, was that that horrible Democratic Convention in Chicago.
SM (01:12:07):
Oh, yes. (19)68.
LH (01:12:07):
And she was with us. And we sat up in the windows and watched the sight below us and cried and cried and cried.
SM (01:12:19):
Yeah. That experience in Chicago, was the whole family there in Chicago?
LH (01:12:26):
Yes. Well, the two oldest ones, the littlest one.
SM (01:12:30):
What did that experience of seeing.... Some people say it was a riot and some people say it was police brutality. It depends on what angle you're coming from. What was your read?
LH (01:12:39):
It was police brutality. Just outright craziness. And it was such a horrible time. We were, of course, for Humphrey. And Fred and Mondale were running his campaign. And then Humphrey was considering Fred for vice president, told his vice president running mate and what is the name? What is our senator's name that became his running mate?
SM (01:13:07):
Muskie. Senator Muskie.
LH (01:13:10):
Yeah. Had he chosen Fred, that we might have gotten past a lot of this anti-war stuff. I mean, because of Pres position. And we tried to change Humphrey and we never could. I do not know exactly what hold President Johnson had on him, but in some way, he would not... I guess it was his own belief because he was such a good man, that he just would not let go of that war. And that campaign was horrible. He battled with him, all over the country.
SM (01:13:43):
Yeah, in my interviews, I had somebody that was very close to Senator McCarthy, who was looking out the window of his hotel room, looking down, just like you were. And the person told me, he showed no emotion. Just watched. Whereas others had tremendous emotion and he was shocked because he thought he would be upset about what was happening, but he just did not say anything. Yeah, that (19)68 year was unbelievable.
LH (01:14:16):
And campaigning and it was just horrible.
SM (01:14:21):
Well, what did that say about, not only about the experience of how Native Americans have been treated, and we all know the civil rights rule was happening, the women's rule was starting, the environmental movement, the Chicano rule, the gay and lesbian. They were all evolving at this time. But what did this say about America to you?
LH (01:14:45):
Well, I never separated. One of the things that we... We have an ambassador's program, a leadership program for young Native Americans between the age of 25 and 35.
SM (01:15:00):
Mm-hmm.
LH (01:15:01):
And we reinforce their cultural identity and say, "How do you do that and live in a contemporary situation?" Because if you try to divide it up, you get paranoid that people say you live in two different worlds. And I said, "You cannot live in two different worlds." You can be who you are and know your cultural identity and you still be contemporary at the same time. It is not an either/or. And always, the American society's always try to make it an either/or. You had to give up being Indian in order to be a good American. But we say that is nonsense and that is what hurt us most, by trying to live like that. But I could never separate my stuff, that I was a Comanche Indian doing. But I was doing these things that were in the women's movement. I was the convener of the women's political caucus and bidding for Dan and Bella, Doug and Gloria. And started off with all those people. Now, it was hard to make people understand how to bring people of color into the circle though. That was the hardest part.
SM (01:16:28):
Mm-hmm.
LH (01:16:31):
But I learned so much from the experience of it, even the negative part of it, that I do not resent it. There were times I probably... Somebody said, when I talked to these young people, I said, "You're blessed because you have an Indian worldview, your tribal worldview, and then you have an American worldview." And so that gives you two ways of looking at an issue and said you have to figure out techniques and methodology to overcome barriers that you are confronted with, that I have used every time, from trying to use logic, to that I cried or flirted. There is not any method I did not try. So just have a broad conception of how you solve a problem. Not just that there's just not one way of solving it.
SM (01:17:32):
You worked with many boomers in your life and you certainly raised three. Based on the people that you witnessed, remember there are 70 million people in this generation, of which only between five and 10 percent may have been activists, based on those that you knew or witnessed, what are some of the qualities you admired about the boomer generation? And which you did not like about the boomer generation?
LH (01:18:00):
Well, I liked that they did take on the war and that they taught us how to look at it differently. So, I admire them for that.
SM (01:18:14):
Mm-hmm.
LH (01:18:17):
And most of them have stayed involved, like Kathryn has stayed involved with non-profit kinds of work or education. So, she has got a law degree. She works mostly in education and then nonprofit. And within the Indian community, she's an advisor to our program, where my youngest daughter is actually the director of our program now.
SM (01:18:38):
Excellent. Yes.
LH (01:18:41):
And our son is out in LA television production, so he is a little different, but he is still involved with his cultural identity.
SM (01:18:51):
Mm-hmm.
LH (01:18:53):
And so, we still go to Comanche there... Things that we do at home, back to Oklahoma. And so, it has been a real... So, I do not see the need to make it an either/or, that I see to go in way that I can do that as a Comanche Indian woman and do it as effectively as anybody else can. And kind of that attitude. And that I have, in many ways, have a special responsibility.
SM (01:19:34):
Yeah, you have been in it for the long run. Longevity means a lot. And that actually means genuineness, too, in terms of your passion for something. Your work, over the years, on behalf of not only Native American issues, but you have been involved in women's issues, environmental issues, peace, you have even gotten involved in mental health issues. I would like you to define activism, in your own words, and why it is today that some people fear this term and feel more comfortable with the term "volunteer"?
LH (01:20:14):
Okay. They are telling me I am going to have to ditch my write-in. I think that is a very good question. I think it is because my Comanche culture, that the more... What's the right word? What is the... The more blessed you are, or I do not want even put it in a religious term, but the more you have, the more you have to give back.
SM (01:20:53):
Mm-hmm.
LH (01:20:53):
You have a responsibility to give back, so that the good things that happened to me are the recognition that I received, that I have more obligation to give back to the community. So that value came through my Comanche [inaudible]. And a lot of people have it, through their religion or other kinds of ways of looking at it. And it is terrible that we have, and particularly it seems that liberals have, kind of dropped the ball this day and age. And that fundamentalists have kind of taken over. And in some way, they seem less generous and caring for the general public, for all people.
SM (01:21:51):
Right.
LH (01:21:53):
And I have a great concern of that. We teach our young ambassadors and we also have a sister organization in New Zealand with the Maori. And we are working with now with Ainus in Japan. And Bolivia, Indians in Bolivia. But that they all have those same values, too. It is interesting that when you belong to a communal society, like tribal society, that you have an obligation for the group to move with you, that you cannot move by yourself. The whole group should be moving up with you, is the ideal. And that is what the value, that most people value the most, is they see it in the person that does that. You are valued in the community because you are generous.
SM (01:22:58):
You have to leave in eight minutes?
LH (01:23:00):
Yeah. We got one more question.
SM (01:23:04):
I got two more questions. I got a lot more, but I guess I can get these two in.
LH (01:23:10):
See if we can call it again tomorrow and finish up.
SM (01:23:12):
Maybe. Would that be possible?
LH (01:23:13):
Uh-huh. Sure.
SM (01:23:16):
Yeah. What time would you like me to call tomorrow?
LH (01:23:19):
Tomorrow is Wednesday, huh?
SM (01:23:22):
Uh-huh.
LH (01:23:23):
Okay. Let us try 10 o'clock tomorrow.
SM (01:23:26):
10 o'clock, which would be 12 o'clock my time.
LH (01:23:30):
Yeah, because I wanted to tell you about Pennsylvania [inaudible].
SM (01:23:33):
Yeah. This will be my last question at Aiden.
LH (01:23:35):
Okay.
SM (01:23:36):
What are your thoughts on the American Indian movement? It is a group that one could describe as more confrontational group willing to do violence to protect Native American rights and property values.
LH (01:23:52):
Yes.
SM (01:23:52):
And the question is, were they the Weathermen and the Black Panthers of the Native American movement?
LH (01:24:00):
Well, I probably should not put them in that category, but they were urban Indians. That is the other thing. Half of our population now, they live in urban areas.
SM (01:24:14):
They were from Minneapolis?
LH (01:24:15):
Yes.
SM (01:24:16):
Yes.
LH (01:24:16):
That was started in Minneapolis, then all over. So, there were people from reservations that joined it. But like you say, their style was more confrontational. Our was more trying to be reasonable, reasoned. But they were helpful to us because when they acted out radical, then we looked like we were tame. But we had the same goals. But our methodology was different.
SM (01:24:46):
Mm-hmm.
LH (01:24:47):
So that they were valuable to helping bring about change. But it was because they made us look reasonable and easier to deal with.
SM (01:25:01):
Yeah, your work I would say was more in the system, like Martin Luther King and Bayard Rustin, James Farmer, Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, John Lewis, and Jesse Jackson. I think they were more in the system.
LH (01:25:19):
Yes. Change the system because they are the ones, they have control.
SM (01:25:23):
Right. And the people that were a little more confrontation where the John Trudells, Russell Means Dennis Banks. They were like Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Cleaver, Hampton, Brown, Davis. Those people.
LH (01:25:37):
And they let their hurt... They were hurt. And that one of the things we had to deal with a lot in our leadership program, is how to manage that, so that you do not medicate yourself with alcohol or dysfunctional behavior.
SM (01:25:57):
Right.
LH (01:25:59):
Because those things can hurt so bad that it is difficult to overcome them. So that is one of the things we examine, in our program.
SM (01:26:08):
And then the last thing in this question regarding the American Indian movement. Maybe we ought talk about this tomorrow? And your thoughts on when they took over Alcatraz in (19)69.
LH (01:26:20):
Yeah.
SM (01:26:21):
The Bureau of Indian Affairs in (19)72. Then the wounded knee situation in (19)73. Those were historic events in the (19)60s.
LH (01:26:34):
Yes. And I was much involved in a particular one at the BIC, BIA takeover. So, I will have a lot to comment on that.
SM (01:26:40):
Why do not we do that tomorrow? And thank you very much.
LH (01:26:43):
You are very much [inaudible].
SM (01:26:47):
Yeah. I feel like I am a friend of yours already.
LH (01:26:51):
[inaudible] share with us, but he was thinking about it, either. We were already committed because Humphrey had been such a good person to us, as a young... He came and campaigned for us. And he did just so many good things. And we would always wind up... I would have Oklahomans come visit us and we were lined up at his office and he would come out take pictures [inaudible].
SM (01:27:20):
He always had a friendly nature. He would be on Mike Douglas Show. And he was on Mike Douglas quite a bit. And he was always jovial and friendly. And one thing people, and I will close with this, people do not realize he wrote a book in 1948 on civil rights.
LH (01:27:35):
Yes.
SM (01:27:36):
1948.
LH (01:27:41):
He deserves much more credit than he [inaudible].
SM (01:27:41):
Yeah, I agree. Well, I will call you tomorrow.
LH (01:27:43):
All right, my dear. I look forward to talking.
SM (01:27:47):
Yeah, same here. Have a good day. Bye.
LH (01:27:48):
Bye-bye.
SM (01:27:50):
... as we were ending our conversation yesterday. And so I just wanted to hear, again, your thoughts. I think I was trying to rush through that last question. Just your overall thoughts on the American Indian movement. And I was trying to say, I was wondering if you thought it was more of a confrontational group, similar to the Weathermen that SDS became, or when the civil rights movement changed from Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and the non-violent protests, the Gandhian method to the more confrontational Black Panther method?
LH (01:28:30):
Well, I hate to compare them.
SM (01:28:31):
Yes.
LH (01:28:32):
[Inaudible] them because they were different, but in some ways similar. And I do not think it would be appropriate to compare them to those groups. Two things, is that they were urban people. I think I mentioned that yesterday.
SM (01:28:49):
Mm-hmm.
LH (01:28:50):
And they were, half of it was, and this was government policy, putting them in urban area. That was part of the relocation, it was called. It was a national policy of taking, because there were not any jobs on the reservation, because it was lack of imagination and creativity. There were not any jobs on the reservation. So, they said, "Well, let us send to the cities and sent them to manufacturing jobs." So, they just went around. And I had a cousin who went through it and he was sent to Detroit to work on cars. And the amount of suicide. I mean, the program did not work at all and it was just a horrible program. But they kept it up for about 10 years. I do not know why, even after we proved, over and over again, it was not working. And it was part of that termination and relocation, part of that Eisenhower report. It was not his report. It was some paint group that came out, that I mentioned earlier, about we were the vanishing race. And so they were... Again, it was an attempt to assimilate us. So, they took people off the Navajo and took them to Los Angeles and dumped them. And they said, "We are not going to put them together because we do not want barrios," or whatever we call the Black community. And so, they scattered them all over town, which made them really lost.
SM (01:30:29):
Yes.
LH (01:30:31):
And I think one of the things that drove them, drove the AIM group, was to reaffirm their identity. And that is how I view them, because I have gone to their meetings. I know them all very well. And so they were trying to reaffirm their identity as well as try to change the policy. And how to articulate that whole failure of the urban relocation program. And no one could quite articulate it at the time, but just the anger and the hurt from it, was part of their behavior.
SM (01:31:23):
I know the three names that are the most well-known are Russell Means, Dennis Banks, and John Trudell. And I remember reading about John Trudell, that his family died in a very... I think there was arson. And he lost his wife and two kids. And they never quite understood what happened there.
LH (01:31:42):
I know. The FBI was supposed to have looked at it. He accused the FBI.
SM (01:31:44):
Mm-hmm.
LH (01:31:50):
But he worked for us in Oklahoma, for Indian Opportunity, for a while, when he was passing through. And then he went out and got... And then that is what happened and it radicalized him.
SM (01:32:00):
Right.
LH (01:32:01):
And so, he has been a real strong activist. And course, Dennis, Dennis and particularly Russell. Russell was a dance instructor for... I have forgotten now, where. And I am thinking out in Chicago, but someplace. And the whole... Finally, they all got together. I mean, what happened that the urban people organized themselves, sometimes it was just the bar where they went to have a drink after work or something. And then they finally started urban Indian centers. And I was very... Under Johnson and I had hearings on, because I said half of our population were... Sorry, I have got a frog somewhere.
SM (01:32:49):
That is all right.
LH (01:32:54):
Let me drink a little bit of water here and get [inaudible].
SM (01:32:55):
Okay.
LH (01:32:55):
And under the Johnson administration, as part of his National Indian Opportunities Council... Excuse me.
SM (01:33:14):
Some of the events, I am just listing them, but the four major events that I remember and what I have read about two of them-
LH (01:33:23):
I... Go ahead.
SM (01:33:25):
... that certainly was the takeover of Alcatraz in (19)69 and Wounded Knee in (19)73. And I know they also took over the Bureau of Indian Affairs in (19)72, in Washington. And they also took over Mount Rushmore. Those are four major activities that AIM did during that (19)69 to (19)73 period. But Alcatraz and Wounded Knee were the big ones.
LH (01:33:50):
Well, they were not responsible for Alcatraz. That was kind of the... It was a local idea that started up, so AIM did-did come in, Trudell and everybody. It drew a lot of outside people.
SM (01:33:58):
Mm-hmm.
LH (01:34:08):
But I do not give them credit for that takeover. But I do not need to say that. But I do not need to be putting-
SM (01:34:17):
What was the purpose of Alcatraz? I know they were there 13 months or?
LH (01:34:26):
... Well, they wanted to make Alcatraz their urban center, take it over and run their programs out of it. That was the urban Indians. There were two groups in San Francisco when I had hearings there. There was what? In Oakland and then San Francisco proper. And had the hearings about how many arrests they made. And the sentences were longer than other people. There was all kinds of horrible complaints about how the city treated them. And so that was one of the reasons that they did the Alcatraz. But the first one they did was the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Was not it first?
SM (01:35:05):
You may be right. Yes.
LH (01:35:11):
Yeah. Well, we were of cursing Washington then. We were courting some plunders, my director and I, Margaret Gover. And who happened to be Kevin Gover, who runs the museum now. She and I were having dinner with some possible funders for AIO. And we said, "Well, we heard that they were some Oklahoma Indians down in the occupation." So, we said, "Let us go down and see who is there." And we went there. And of course, there was the big crowd all around. And John Trudell saw us and said, "Oh, there is LaDonna. Come in." And Mike, he would come in. So, it was kind of like the Red Sea opening up.
SM (01:35:56):
Yes.
LH (01:35:56):
It all bear [inaudible]. So, we went in that night and Commissioner Lee-
LH (01:36:03):
And Commissioner Louis Bruce was there, and they were... It was being occupied, but here was all of the BIA [inaudible] trying to figure out how to get them out, or see what they want. Well, my God, it was so weird. You just cannot imagine. It was like... What is the term? Unbelievable, given how you could get in that set of circumstance. Well, when they got in there, Louis Bruce loves to say that they spent the night with me that night. So we stayed there all night, to keep them. I did not think they would storm the... US Marshals were going threaten to storm. So, then the AIM guys, Russell and them says, "Well, we are ready to negotiate out, but we want to negotiate with a certain party," like... Oh, God, I cannot think of everybody's name. He was Secretary of Health and Human Services at the time, in the Nixon administration. So, I said, "Well, have we all requested it?" And they said, "Well, no, we do not know who to talk to." And I said, "Well, do y'all have any contact with him?" And they said, "Oh yeah, they are in the building with the US Marshal." So, I said, " Go sit down and talk to them and tell them that you are ready to negotiate under these, with this thing." So, they did. And they came back and said, "Well, they did not have the authority to make any decision." So, we stayed there all that night. And the next morning I went back and started calling. And of course, so much like AIM's activity, the whole city was out of session, and Nixon was back in California. So I started calling Leonard Garment and everybody I knew in the White House to say that it's going to be horrible if... because the US Marshals, again, said they were going to storm the building. So, I kept calling and calling and calling, and finally found out, and Brad Patterson was one person they would talk to, and the guy, [inaudible] who later became Head of the Pentagon. So finally, they agreed, but in the meantime, they kept threatening and threatening. And then I do not know why, some of the young people in there busted up some toilet and did some stupid things. Anyway, they got out. They negotiated out. The government paid them to go home, paid for their fare to go home. And then the next day we went back down there, and Margaret was taking in some food and they said, "Oh, every tribe has an office, and there is a Comanche." And I said, "Well, I better go see who's there from my tribe." And it was my kids, had gone earlier with Maggie and her children, who were Comanches too. They were sitting in that room and acting like they had taken it over.
SM (01:39:25):
Oh my God.
LH (01:39:25):
The ridiculousness of it was so absurd. The whole strategy and the outcome, they did get a lot of attention, and it was so hard to work through because there was not any logical... They did not have a set thing that they wanted, but they did negotiate out. So, what I was trying to show you, they could get into situations, but they could not figure out how to get out.
SM (01:40:06):
Was that what happened at Wounded Knee too? Because they were there for a long time, but their grievance at Wounded Knee was the terrible tragedy of 1890, I believe, and the original Wounded Knee.
LH (01:40:19):
It was Wilson and the Goon Squad, remember?
SM (01:40:22):
Yes.
LH (01:40:27):
And it was chairman of the Pine Ridge. And he was supposedly... He had his law enforcement. And again, I do not know exactly all of the grievances, but as soon as it happened, I called the same people that negotiated out the White House. And I said, "Why do not you set up a committee like Vine Deloria and some prominent Indians, come up there to talk to them and see what their grievance, and let them articulate what it is, the grievances are, and see if we cannot get them out?" And so, Brad Patterson of the White House said, "Oh, Ladonna, we think we have got it all figured out." And I said, "Well, if there is any deaths or any violence, that is going to be in your cat." Of course, they constitutionally sent in the National Guard, which they did not have the authority, the governor did not have the authority to do. So, nobody was convicted of anything except, what is his name, that is still in prison today? He is the poster child of that. Everybody perceives him to be a political prisoner and not-
SM (01:41:33):
Oh, Peltier.
LH (01:41:34):
Yeah, Peltier.
SM (01:41:34):
Leonard Peltier.
LH (01:41:36):
And he was there and apparently he had... When he was arrested, had guns in his car, illegal guns he did not own, or whatever. So they had to chance to arrest him. And he became, because the judge let everybody else go, because they did not have enough, they did not anything to charge them with, and the action of the state was all wrong, and the Federalist government was wrong, and what they did. So all of that, and the two deaths happened at the very last of the occupation. So, I think Peltier was guilty of carrying those guns, but whether he was guilty of the death of the FBI, but FBI just went nuts. And to this day, they cannot get him out of there. We thought we were going to get him out under Clinton, and Clinton had to back off. So, if you can imagine, that former FBI man picketed the White House, I would have fired their behind [inaudible 01:42:46] the President. He had to back down that off of it. So that shows you that he was an example of-
SM (01:42:55):
Yes.
LH (01:42:55):
It was revenge more than it was justice.
SM (01:43:00):
I think there were two Native Americans killed there as well as, I think I heard over a thousand were arrested, or 1,400. It was a large number, were arrested.
LH (01:43:13):
They were all in the church there, and people were smuggling food in, they could go past. Oh, again, it was the not ridiculousness, but I was trying to think of it, of how they got in there, how they got fed for all that time. And then the people that got killed in it, it was like a bad grade B movie. And very poorly planned and executed, the whole thing. And so, the White House was not, on my part, and Vine Deloria and others, and let us get them out, and find [inaudible], but the White House would not move on it, because I guess they thought the governor was going to take care of it.
SM (01:44:06):
Right. You and your husband were in DC during an unbelievable time. I guess it was (19)65 to (19)80 or (19)78, I think it was. When did your husband... You started in (19)65. When did he leave?
LH (01:44:25):
When Carter came.
SM (01:44:28):
Okay. Yeah, seven... So those 15 years were, well-
LH (01:44:33):
Yes. They were the best years actually, in many ways, because of the civil rights and the war on poverty, all the good things that were happening, positive things that were happening. Of course, that horrible war.
SM (01:44:46):
Yeah. I have just your response. This is a general question, and then just you can respond to it, that your husband was a key senator looking at all these issues, from civil rights, anti-war, Native American issues, obviously, women's rights and gay rights, gay/lesbian rights were coming about in (19)60s9. Then you had Chicano rights.
LH (01:45:06):
Oh, yes.
SM (01:45:07):
And I have talked to even Asian American rights, because I have talked to several people on that. And then you had the environment, of Earth Day in 1970. And when you look at all these events during the time from the Chicago that you talked about yesterday, in 1968, and Kent State in 1970, and you had the King and Kennedy assassinations in (19)68, you had McCarthy running for president in (19)68, and McGovern in (19)72. And then Carter of course ran for president and won. And Humphrey, you were supporting of him. LBJ withdrew in (19)68, and then Nixon came in in (19)68. You had Watergate in (19)73, and Gerald Ford pardoning Nixon. And then in 1980, you had Reagan coming in with his law and order, kind of a backlash to what had happened in the previous administrations. You witnessed all this.
LH (01:46:02):
Yes. And was involved, to some degree, almost in every movement that took place, particularly the women's movement. As I said yesterday, I was the convener of the women's political caucus that still exist today. It was an exciting time, and a person can make a difference. That is, I think the main thing to say, that an individual could contribute to it. And a lot of people came, did that, in the women's movement, and the civil rights. And it was a very tragic time. Of course, Bobby and [inaudible] were our neighbors. And when we... Oh, it was just awful. And we were friends and we supported Humphrey over him. Just the tragedy. And then it made it harder when we went to the funeral, we attended the funeral, on the train and all of that. It was very emotional and very tragic for those kids. And even after that, we supported Joe Kennedy when he ran for Congress. Me and my daughter, his age, my children grew up with those kids. So, it was-
SM (01:47:43):
Did you feel, basically you, because I did speak to your husband, did you feel that we were heading toward another civil war? The divisions were so intense, especially in (19)68.
LH (01:47:51):
But you know what? I feared today more than I did then, because I guess we had some successes. We had successes along the way, that made a difference in how people behaved. So there was a lot of tragedy involved in Birmingham and all of those things that the African American community had to go through. I served on the board of the Urban League and the Urban Coalition. So we cross-generated. In many ways, I was kind of the token Indian, but I felt that I was learning a lot of different kinds of strategies and that it was very useful. I played all those roles. I said I did not mind being token, if you know you are being token. That was all right. And people then started... Like, the Girl Scouts of America asked me to be on the board, because they were trying to be diversified. And unfortunately, still all of that is... We are going backwards in all the gains that we made in the (19)60s on civil rights, and the attitude of the government now, with the interesting Tea Party group.
SM (01:49:31):
Yeah, and the budget cuts, they are unbelievable, particularly in education.
LH (01:49:35):
And they do not make sense. They really do not make sense in the scheme of things. But what to say about it? It is just weird.
SM (01:49:45):
Yeah, but you saw that period when the anti-war people were coming to DC, and they were not very popular, because most of the nations supported the war. And then as we got into the middle and late (19)60s, more and more people started going against the war. But you saw the tremendous divisions support the troops, and it was just an unbelievable period.
LH (01:50:13):
Well, Fritz said he would go over to briefings at the White House, and all these generals were telling them, not like what we are doing now, telling them, "Well, we will be able to do this. We will be able to take control." Excuse me.
SM (01:50:32):
Yes. Yeah. That was interesting. And then, of course, when Richard Nixon talked about the, what do you call it, the silent majority?
LH (01:50:43):
Yes.
SM (01:50:43):
Most of America was supporting him and the pro-war forces. What did your husband and you think about that?
LH (01:50:56):
By that time, we had finally decided that... because we were so entrenched in civil rights, and Fred was head of the Kerner Commission. I was on that. I was appointed on the National Mental Health Department. Anyway, the department had a committee of people to look at the mental health of children. And I was appointed on that board because I had been active in mental health for Fred in Oklahoma, looking at them and reporting to him, because he had... So, I was only Senator's wife, but was interested in that and they asked me to be on it. And I start staying. Of course, I was very much involved in Oklahomans for Indian Opportunity, and had not quite started [inaudible] yet. And I always felt, well, oh, I am so glad, because I want to be around psychiatrists and psychologists, because they may have some answers that we could use. And unfortunately, they were just like everybody else, that they had not had any learned experience about people of color.
SM (01:52:29):
Wow.
LH (01:52:33):
And I was the only person who was not a professional in the field, a psychiatrist. And so, I would periodically say, "Well, that would not be so with Indian children, and I do not think it would be so with children of color." And I loved them individually, but collectively I just was so... I felt frustrated. But I liked them so much. I invited them over to my house for supper, and for Fred to meet them. Franklin Roosevelt's granddaughter was there. I cannot think of her first name now. But anyway, everybody came. And it so happened that my folks from Oklahomans for Indian Opportunity were there. And in Oklahoma, there was the African American Harvard Professor of Psychiatry, who was doing some work in Oklahoma. And I forgot why he was there, but he and I were like the token black and Indian on lots of the boards and things. So we got to be friends. And he went back to Harvard.
SM (01:53:57):
Is that Dr. Pusant?
LH (01:53:59):
No, it was not Pusant. Pusant was a mentor of his. It was Chet Pierce, Dr. Chet Pierce. He did a lot of work with the... And when he would come to Washington and go to dinner or lunch with him, he would say he predicted the people's behavior about me and him going, not that they recognized me, but just an African American and perceived to be an Anglo, how their behavior was. So it got to be quite a thing. It was a long friendship from Oklahoma, then back to Washington. Anyway, I invited him to that dinner, and my relatives who were running Oklahomans for Indian Opportunities was intimidated by everybody had at least two or three degrees in psychiatry or sociology or social worker. And one of the men with these two or three degrees had a bolo tie on, but it was wooden. Bolo ties, that was the Indian neckwear. And so, he had a little too much to drink and he went up to this man and said, "Just be [inaudible] glad [inaudible]. I am glad that that was not turquoise, or I would have to whoop your ass." They just shocked everybody, that they saw that kind of anger in the Indian community, because they would not believe me. They would just like... It was like so many places in my life, I was always at... When is it when you just give somebody a little bit of a nod of acknowledgement, but not take them seriously? I think it was [inaudible].
SM (01:56:04):
Yeah.
LH (01:56:06):
So, they would never, because I was not professional, and so they would not take me seriously. But after they talked with Chet Pierce that evening, and he of course was very professional, and he talked, and he was not threatening, but here comes the Indians, threatening. So they accused me, or teasingly accused me of planning it. And I said, "I did not. They just happened to be there, and I had already invited this group over for dinner," but we did not match because we were looking for new ways of dealing with problems in Oklahoma. So, they started a commission on the mental health of minority children. And they put me on that committee, and we got Chet Pierce and Price Cobbs, who wrote Black Like... What is the book? Black Rage.
SM (01:56:59):
Oh, yes.
LH (01:57:01):
So, we got [inaudible], one a Puerto Rican, and one a Mexican-American from Mexico, people from the Jewish community, and Japanese, a person who was a psychiatrist who was interred in one of the Japanese camps, and generation growing up in a Japanese concentration camp here in the State.
SM (01:57:30):
Yes.
LH (01:57:31):
And what others? And myself and Ada Deer, of course Price Cobbs and Chet Pierce. So we came out, we immediately were all working in civil rights, and we immediately came to an agreement. And the committee who appointed it, or created it, said that the blacks had taken over. They were too radical. And of course Ada Deer and I were the two Indian, two radical ones. Ada Deer was the social worker. And so, we came out with... White racism was the number one mental health problem, because the people that were discriminated against were hurt, and the people who did the discrimination were hurting too, that they had issues that we should pay more attention to. Well, they would not accept our report. So all the professionals resigned from the committee. Business things I get into, and resigned from the committee. And we kept... Those of us who did not have anything to lose professionally kept on fighting them, but they never would print our report. And then when Fred... Fred was doing the Kerner commission, he had us come and testify. And the white racism was part of that Kerner Commission report. We testified before his committee. So, I just said-
SM (01:59:11):
And what year was that?
LH (01:59:16):
It was early in the Johnson period, because I was trying to think of who was the head of... Who was Johnson's First Secretary of Health and Human Services?
SM (01:59:31):
I should know that. Do not know.
LH (01:59:35):
But he was the one who set up the committee. But it was right at the time of the Kerner Commission, or what do we call it now, when downtown was burning and the-
SM (01:59:58):
Yeah. It was the Commission on National... Oh my God, I have it. I have the book, I have the paperback of the Kerner Commission book. I will have to check it.
LH (02:00:12):
And of course, Kerner turned out to have a bad reputation. Turned out was a bad reputation, but he still gets the name of it. But the worst part about it, it was a real good report, and Fred worked very closely, I do not know if he told you about this, but that Johnson got mad at him. And when Johnson got mad, he [inaudible] like a dead dish. Otherwise, he would be with his arm around you and talking right in your face. And we went to something at the White House and he told Fred, he said, "Well, Fred, I am surprised to see you up." And Fred says, "Well, why's that, Mr. President?" And he said... because he called him... You would have to get Fred to tell you this, he called and appointed him on the Kerner Commission because it was a recommendation Fred had made, to do a commission report. And Fred said, "What do you mean, Mr. President?" He said, "I thought..." Who was the mayor of New York at that time?
SM (02:01:12):
Lindsay?
LH (02:01:16):
Yeah. So me and Fred were the hardest workers on that commission, and really we're basically calling the shots, though Kerner was supposed to chair it. And then they had some people who really did not believe. It was not strongly forced civil rights on it. So, Fred went over and talked to him and said, "Well," like Franklin Roosevelt during the Great Depression, that you have to figure out what's happening and get some solutions, or they will just keep festering. So, what was happening, the FBI was coming over there and telling them... It was Hoover still in office at the time, was telling them that this person met with somebody two years ago.
SM (02:02:17):
Can you hold on one second?
(02:02:23):
All right. We are back.
LH (02:02:23):
So finally, Johnson told Fred, said, "Well, the FBI was here, saying that they were communists." And he said, "They are not communists. They're people that are hurt about discrimination." And he suggested to be like Franklin Roosevelt during the Great Depression, that if you do think it is communist, then to take the fire out of what they are upset about. So, they had a good talk then. But yet, what really happened was that the Washington Post came out and reported the report, that white racism was the number one mental health problem, before Johnson got to see it. And I do not know who leaked it to him, to this day. But it really upset Johnson and he did not ever embrace the report. But it was the handbook of the times, along with Black Rage and other-
SM (02:03:31):
Yeah, I have that book too.
LH (02:03:34):
Yeah.
SM (02:03:35):
What were the successes of the Native American movement in the (19)60s and (19)70s and beyond through today, and what have been the failures? And what are the main grievances today within the Native American community? So it's kind of a two-part question. What were the successes of that period, the (19)60s through today, and the failures in the efforts? And then what are the main grievances today?
LH (02:04:09):
The successes were those three things that we talked about earlier, was that the [inaudible] getting their land back, doing away with termination as a policy and reestablishing the Menominee and the Alaskan claims. So those successes gave us in voting, and then there was a whole new set of leaderships that came out of those programs, that became community organizers and then became chairmen of their tribes. And I feel like I was the product of that, as we organized Oklahomans for Indian opportunity. So a new set of leaders who came with some ideas of change, and we did. We have Indian 101 and you can-
SM (02:05:05):
Yes, I saw that.
LH (02:05:05):
And it starts moving up then. And then what we did when we organized Americans for Indian Opportunity, we started working with the federal agencies to... We took Johnson's message seriously, that we were not... The Bureau of Department of Interior was in our colonial office, that all agencies in the federal government had responsibility to Native Americans. So, we really took his message, and took it around to his secretaries, and interpreted it for them, to mean that we have to work with tribes, like EPA and environmental things and health and all of those kinds of different programs that were never doing anything. But we had gotten the Department of Labor and Commerce involved during the war on poverty, to put resources into the Indian community. So we got a whole set of new resources. And that emboldened and brought about new leadership and change on the reservations, and then within the government. So we were still in Washington, we had Indian desk in every federal agency. Well, the next time then when Nixon came in, he did away with all of them except the war on poverty put over in ANA, over in Health and Human Services. So, it is still alive today, in Head start. They were going to kill Head start over in Health and Human Services. So a group of tribal leaders came to me and said, "Would you help us set up a meeting with those people?" They were all friends. We had a national network of about, oh, 25 people, that if something went wrong, we could call everybody and it would activate this group of people over in leadership positions, and we would all move on it. Slade Gorton, we killed Slade Gorton because he was so anti-Indian. We did things like that. And then we took it on ourselves as AIO to... It was every new administration, that we would go. And then Nixon came along with his policy statement, was self-determination. So, we interpreted that to the department, saying self-determination means we had the right to self-government and make our own decisions, and that they cannot make policy decisions for us within our own tribe, and that we get to determine our tribal membership. It was before the federal government did it. So, a whole bunch of things changed. Just amazing. Many of the organizations that exist-
LH (02:08:03):
Amazing. Many of the organizations that exist today were started during that time. The NARF, Native American Rights Fund. And then, one of the things that we did, there was a report that came out, an international report, that there's going to be a food shortage and a fuel shortage and water shortage. We said, "How is that going to impact us?" And all of a sudden, we said, "Why are we the poorest people in the country, when we have land and resources?" So, we said, "Well, what are the resources?" So, we tried to find that out, and the Bureau could not even tell us. We sent some interns over there who did some research. We added percentages to it, like 35 percent of all the coal in the United States was on Indian land, 75 percent of the uranium was on Indian [inaudible], and oil and gas. So, one of the things we did in the Nixon administration is said, "With the creation of the new Energy Department, that you cannot have an energy policy when this much private land is held by Indian people, but Indian people had to be at the table." That was what we said. Frank Zarb was the Czar at the time, and he worked with us, and we slapped around the Bureau of Indian Affairs and got them to change their policy. We brought in experts from international negotiation, and said that the leases that the tribes got into, whether it was oil and gas, or coal, or timber, all of those things were negotiated by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and they were running things as bad as [inaudible] that may be one of the African countries had a poorer contract than we did. We picked that and ran with it, and organized the Council of Energy Resource Drive. They called it the OPEC. But what that did for us, then, is that we got involved with Department of Energy and changed the policy of the Department of Interior, and then gave more control of their tribal resources in the hands of the tribes. And then, from there, the timber tribes got organized. We brought some people with specialty in to help interpret, because they were clear cutting Indian timber and not replanting it, and all of those things. And they were getting the lowest price possible for the resources. And that is why they were poor. So, we brought people together, the tribes together, that had oil and gas, had energy resources, and brought them together and they got organized, and we helped staff them until they got their own funding. And they are still alive today in Denver. And the timber tribes are organized. The fishing tribes are organized around natural resources to get a better price for their product. And then, going through that, it is an evolution. We find that the next thing that hit you in the face was that we were not under EPA. That we were considered part of the state, which the state did not have any jurisdiction over us. And so, we said we were falling through the cracks. So, we, under the Carter administration, got a ruling from the Assistant Director, who is a very dear friend of mine to this day, of the Profit Post, Barbara Blum. And she made an administrative decision, so we did not have to go through the tribes, we tried to get the agency to change their policy, and she made the policy that tribes had the right to create their own tribal environmental regulation. So, it gave us a lot of [inaudible] development on the reservation. And that also provided that the companies that were on the reservation had to renegotiate their contract with the tribe, because the tribes can set up their environmental policies to stop their forms of development. That-
SM (02:12:56):
That is a lot of success.
LH (02:12:58):
Yes.
SM (02:13:00):
As we stand today in 2011, what is the greatest need?
LH (02:13:05):
Well, it mostly is an informed public. It goes back to in the educational experience that people have has no basic knowledge of Indian people. And that is what I was going to tell you about Pennsylvania. Two years ago, I do a lot of lecturing around the country in colleges and universities, and the University of California there in Pennsylvania? Familiar with it?
SM (02:13:34):
Yeah.
LH (02:13:35):
They invited me, and I gave them my regular talk, in which I even said to you, is that we do not study American history, we study Europeans coming to the Americas. Well, the good president said that was so shocking to him, here he had two PhD degrees, and he did not know anything about Native Americas. So, he invited me to come back. They made me an honorary doctor. Then, we took our ambassadors and had a week-long program. And then, they're wanting to set up a Donna Harris Indigenous Institute there at the college, which they have done with African-Americans. Instead of having Indian studies or African American studies, they set up an institute where they would bring a teacher in that would work as faculty with the university to help to integrate it into the total college setting instead of just having women's studies and African [inaudible] Hispanic studies, and all that. Because that marginalizes. That is why we are not making any gains in education, because that still marginalizes, and particularly Indians, because the tribes are governments, and unlike any other minority in the country, we are governmental entities, and we should be in the textbook of government, political science. We should be a part of the literature of all those departments, so that they can see us in a different way rather than just a minority group trying to work for its rights. Basically, Laura, my daughter, was on Clinton's minority rights thing. And that was what they found on Indians that the lack of information about Native Americans was the biggest problem that we had, because we had to spend more than half our time educating people through the Indian 101 thing for them. And we do not mind doing it. But that keeps us from doing the activist kind of things [inaudible].
SM (02:15:55):
Probably Native American college students that go off to predominantly White campuses, just like African American students, the one thing that upsets them more than anything else is when they are in a class, and hopefully teachers do not do this, but I still know they do, that if there's a student of color, they will immediately, "Well, you are a student of color. What do you think?"
LH (02:16:16):
Yeah.
SM (02:16:17):
You put pressure on a college student to be the educator of the other peers. And the people doing it are the teachers.
LH (02:16:25):
That is right. And they are probably one of maybe five students on the whole campus. So, really it is pressure. I know when, oh, yellow Springs, oh, what is it the little college up there? I was chosen by the students to be on the Board, there.
SM (02:16:45):
Yellow Springs?
LH (02:16:47):
Yeah.
SM (02:16:47):
Is that in Ohio?
LH (02:16:49):
Yes. [inaudible] college.
SM (02:16:51):
Antioch.
LH (02:16:53):
Yeah.
SM (02:16:53):
Yes.
LH (02:16:53):
And it is very progressive.
SM (02:16:58):
Oh, yes.
LH (02:16:58):
And that was what the Indian students complained to me about, said that, "We were always having to try to explain Indians to [inaudible] when we're trying to figure out what our role is. And the other thing is that, if you go through the American educational system, you still cannot find yourself within the history of the United States. And then, if you go on to Law or to some other specialty to get your PhD degree, by that time you have almost, not divorced yourself, but you have become less connected to your community, so the people back home get annoyed with you. It's one of the issues now. And that is what we try to work at in our Ambassadors program, is how do you maintain your cultural identity?
SM (02:18:03):
Another thing here is, you were involved in the Women's Movement, and I know you were involved in that organization at the very beginning. One of the things that the history books teach us is that one of the reasons why the Women's Movement came about was because of the sexism that was so prevalent in the Civil Rights and Anti-war movements. Not all, but many of the women who were in secondary roles went into the Women's Movement so they could begin leadership roles. And I think I have already asked this question, because I think you have already said that women are treated with a lot of respect in the Native American communities. But your thoughts on whether that is indeed true, that the Women's Movement that really came to fruition in the latter part of the (19)60s and early (19)70s was because many of the women had had it up to their ears with men in these other movements. And...
LH (02:19:08):
That is absolutely correct. One of the things that I noticed, and really got me involved, is I got to know a lot of the women in government who had offices, and they could not travel, which would have allowed them to gain higher positions in their department. Only men could travel. Women could not travel without being escorted, junk like that which kept women from raising in their position in the government. I was not really ready to jump into the Women's Movement. But when I got to know that as an issue, I got involved. And again, the women played a major role as, what is her name, that rode the bus. She was a major player in the movement, but never got the recognition. Again, it was always the males who got the recognition. So, that became an issue. We went through a lot of stress, and then they even had to organize the women of color, because they were not enough women of color moving in to the national movement. There were all kinds of reasons why. But just all of those things, it was taking a course in college to see how all of those evolved.
SM (02:20:52):
Yeah. What is interesting today is, when you interview people, you see what they call the mainstream feminists, which they say it was Gloria Steinem and Betty Fredan, the Frustrated Housewife as some people have told me. And the Feminine Mystique, the book that was written. And then, you had what they called the radical feminists, who look down upon the mainstream feminists, respect them, but do not like their approach. When you look at the movements that have really changed and grown and evolved since the late (19)60s, there is this split between the radical feminists and what they call the mainstream feminists.
LH (02:21:40):
If you look at who the radical feminist is, their lesbian. And it was an interesting interaction between the two groups. I remember meeting in New York, and a big group of them came in together, and were going to challenge our whole movement, our whole activity. And Maggie Glover said, "Well, do we all have to declare our sexuality to be in the Women's [inaudible]?" That was basically what they were demanding. They wanted to be-be more accepted, which was not a bad thing, but [inaudible] probably pretty radical [inaudible]. But we got past that. It was more of, how do you get women of color involved than it was a bigger [], so that they have the voice. Indian women did not really need it, but Black women felt that it was being disloyal, because they could get jobs easier than their male counterparts, because they were less a threat. And there was a whole underlining [inaudible].
SM (02:23:00):
Yeah. I know that Johnnetta Cole, former President of Spelman, in her book, Sister Present, I forget the name of the title of the book, she talks about those pressures of being an African American, then being an African American female, and then wanting to be involved in the Women's Movement, all these different pressures.
LH (02:23:21):
Yes. And that was so. And it was very hard. And Anglo [inaudible] Movement people did not know how to deal with it. And it was with great pride that I was the bridge, but I could not make it work. I could not figure out how. Something would just break down right in the middle of it. And it was not intentional. It was...
SM (02:23:53):
Why did the ERA fail?
LH (02:24:01):
I do not know. I really do not know. I think, by that time, I have forgotten what it was all happening in my life. I got diverted. I think we were out here in New Mexico a bit [inaudible 02:24:13] Mexico. I cannot remember. But it was such a threat to people, the two-party people, all kinds of social things, threats, "Who do these people think they are?"
SM (02:24:37):
Yeah.
LH (02:24:38):
And so, that is my interpretation anyway.
SM (02:24:43):
One of the things that, when you talk about all the movements that were taking place in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, the Anti-war Movement and Civil Rights was ongoing, going through unbelievable changes in strategy. But then you had the evolution of the Women's Movement, the Environmental Movement, the Gay and Lesbian Movement from Stonewall, and Native American Movement, you had Chicano and Asian American, as well. And even the beginnings of the Disability Rights Movement was around this time, too. And certainly you brought up the issue. I am really glad you were involved in mental health issues, because I remember the only female that really seemed to care about this was President Carter's wife. She took it out as an issue. What-
LH (02:25:31):
I served on her committee, too. We did a special thing on Indian Mental Health, which there is no program for. There's one institution. And she was just amazed at our report. I had a Native American person who was on my Board, actually, he called and said, "Could I help you work on that?" And I was calling her on the other line saying, "Would you come help me?" But we visited heavily Indian populated states. And then, the mental health providers not knowing how to deal with different cultural people, and she was just amazed at that report. And of course, look what happened to her stuff, too, even Mental Health for Children. And was it Reagan that came along and just [inaudible] mental health, threw them out onto the streets where they're homeless now. We call them homeless, not mental health.
SM (02:26:34):
Yeah. The question I was getting at here is, these movements, when you saw a protest, you saw the signs of all these movements together. At the moratorium in (19)60s9, you might see the Native American movement, all the movements had signs. Now it seems like they are never together anymore. The movements have all become isolated and unto themselves. Am I reading correctly into this?
LH (02:27:04):
Yes, I think so. And that is what troubles me. My youngest daughter had a birthday party, Catherine and Manuel who were really the baby boomers. And I said, "You all are getting a lot of blame because you all are not activist enough." They are, she and her husband. But I said, "What happened to the Anti-war Movement? What happened to the Civil Rights Movement, which you were part of?" But there is no movement out there. I told you I went around and lectured in colleges. And at one point, I think about five years ago or more, god, [inaudible], but that I was going through liberal arts colleges [inaudible]. And those liberal arts colleges were all, "How are we going to go [inaudible]? They were majoring in business and da da da da da da, so that the whole direction turned toward obtaining wealth. And that is how I am seeing it now, trying to evaluate where in the heck we are, right now.
SM (02:28:26):
Oh, yeah.
LH (02:28:28):
The whole big push for about the last 10 years or more has been, "We're going to all be millionaires. How do we go to Wall Street and learn how to do that?" so that we have now all of these people that do not know how to function in what they're confronted with during this recession. We also do not know how to organize ourselves, because we disassociated ourselves from those groups. And we do not know who they are anymore. I try to stay in touch. I was made an honorary sorority sister of the Deltas, which is a Black woman's sorority. And I stay in touch through them. And of course, New Mexico, they have a very small African-American community. But I stay in touch with them. And they recognize that my national work, because it was the national organization that made me an honorary member, and the local membership has brought me in, which gives me some ties to all parts of the community.
SM (02:29:43):
Right.
LH (02:29:44):
Because we are mostly heavily Indian and Hispanic, Hispanic being the larger. But now, New Mexico has a lot of middle-class Hispanics, and they do not fit. The national, you have the Caribbean Hispanic, and Florida is dominated by the Cuban. And then, you have Puerto Ricans in New York, and that is another kind of island people.
SM (02:30:19):
Right.
LH (02:30:20):
And then, out here we have the Mexican, and now the immigrants that are coming, which is also an issue. One of the things we are confronted, with, the majority of them are Guatemalan who are [inaudible] escape persecution from their own country. And they have to go all the way through that horrible Mexico situation, and then get to the border, and they get across the border, and then they are deported back. It is something that, as an Indian organization, we have to look at. But the other thing is that it is a continuous program like the federal teachers. It is like the volunteer teachers who are very well-educated and they are come out here to work on Indian reservations, and they do not know [inaudible]. They have had to hire us to come and give them Indian 101 so that they can become effective teachers. Because all of a sudden, they are just thrown out here without any [inaudible]. But we accept that responsibility, and it brings in some resources for us. But again, it is time consuming, so that the continuous education of the general public is probably one of our big-
SM (02:31:48):
You taught 101 to the United States Senate, did not you?
LH (02:31:52):
[inaudible].
SM (02:31:52):
Because I remember you had mentioned yesterday that your husband, obviously there's 100 senators, but did you do 101 for the 100 senators?
LH (02:32:02):
No. It was a group that had members of the Congress and the Senate who had Indian populations [inaudible] get the White House involved. And we brought Indians in. And again, that was one of our big success stories, because at that time, the Indians were the experts. And members of Congress [inaudible] so they did not have any excuse, and it was interesting. We had the literature on it.
SM (02:32:35):
In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
LH (02:32:41):
I think, to me, it began with Johnson and the Civil Rights and [inaudible]. That was the backbone that started people changing, and changing their vocabulary, and changing what was politically correct, which has been a real disservice by many people by saying, you can go overboard with politically correct language. But it was so necessary. Even Fred's father who came from specifically Oklahoma, he had to control his need to say "negro." Including Johnson, too. Johnson had to learn to change his rhetoric, too. It was a great learning experience. And now, it's all [inaudible] nothing. I always wondered, during all this time, remember we were still fighting the great communist threat-
SM (02:33:52):
The Cold War.
LH (02:33:53):
Yeah. And all of that. And Reagan gets to take credit for what Gorbachev did, actually, and everybody gives him credit for bringing down the wall, and all that stuff. But he was slow in coming, and forced into it by what Gorbachev achieved. [inaudible] said, "who are they going to hate when they do not have the communist to hate?" Because, oh, the people would just talk like they knew a communist was right around the corner and going to take them over. Now, the-the poor Tea Party people have now found somebody to hate, which is Obama and the "liberal democratic party."
SM (02:34:38):
And all the activists from the (19)60s.
LH (02:34:40):
Yeah. All the activist-
SM (02:34:42):
No matter what the issue.
LH (02:34:44):
No matter what, we are going to change the social nature of those. That is really true. And so, they truly do hate us. And why they are worried, and why they are so dogged about it, is that, in my opinion, they are afraid that the browning of America is occurring, has occurred. And there is no one talking about it. Nobody preparing our society to accommodate it. And that is why immigration is such a big issue, and English First, all the kinds of [inaudible] that they think up. But what is so obvious is the immigration, so that the Hispanics get all of the recognition. But if you talk to Clayburn out of Oklahoma, he hates Indians and will say so, and thinks that we have too much rights. That is the new thing that they say about Indians, we have too many, because we have the right to be self-governing. And it is a very peculiar thing. And we're kind of glad that people are ignorant sometimes, because I think that they understand, here we are a collective tribal institutional government, but in the middle of capitalism, that we own things collectively. And people, they do not understand it, so they cannot quite figure it out.
SM (02:36:20):
And the attitude is, they do not like the victim mentality. The-
LH (02:36:24):
Yes.
SM (02:36:25):
And the anti-environment hatred. Oh, my gosh.
LH (02:36:30):
Oh, gosh. Well, goes particularly against how they interpret the Bible [inaudible] them interpret the Bible. There was the article in one of the Indian magazines, that one of the fundamentalists was preaching, they were going back to the first part of the Bible, saying that we were not the lost tribe of Israel, and we were not good enough to own this land. He was just far out. But you see how they are thinking, and where they are going to come from. And we are going to have a lot more trouble, I think, with this group than we had with any Republicans in the past.
SM (02:37:18):
Yeah. The culture wars are really going on, here.
LH (02:37:25):
That is a good point. The culture wars, and that browning of America is a part of it.
SM (02:37:31):
Yeah. And the anti-environment. I hear, in Pennsylvania, so much disgust for those people that want to save the environment. The dislike is intense.
LH (02:37:50):
Oh. Well, everything they do is so intense and ugly and rude and vulgar. No-
SM (02:37:58):
What was the watershed moment of the (19)60s and (19)70s, in your opinion?
LH (02:38:04):
The war.
SM (02:38:05):
Yeah.
LH (02:38:06):
It just brought everybody down.
SM (02:38:07):
Did the (19)60s ever end?
LH (02:38:10):
Did not for me.
SM (02:38:11):
Yeah. I have got a couple more questions and we will be done. One of the questions I have been asking everyone is this. When you look at the boomer generation, which your kids are part of, and when I say boomer generation, I mean all ethnic groups, all backgrounds, male, female, gay, straight, you name it, all boomers, all 70 to 74 million, so you cannot even come up with an exact number here, do you feel that this generation, the boomer generation, will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, as a generation not truly healing because of the tremendous divisions that were so prevalent, and the divisiveness that was so prevalent in their lives between Black and White, those who are for the war, those who are against the war, male against female sometimes, all these tremendous divisions and divisiveness. Some say the divisiveness that we have today is directly linked to the divisiveness back then, where no one listened, just basically screamed at each other. Do you feel that this boomer generation is going to go to its grave not truly healing? Is that an issue in your viewpoint?
LH (02:39:31):
I do not see it as an issue. I do not understand them. Mine have gone through this, but they have stayed connected to Indian causes, women causes, and productive rights, and those kinds of things that the far right is trying to over override, but they do not have the zest. They do not have-
LH (02:40:03):
They do not have the zest, they do not have the passion, and they seem rather dull.
SM (02:40:11):
You mean the boomers?
LH (02:40:12):
Yeah, and now. That they are dull now. They do not have any passion.
SM (02:40:17):
Well, as they have gotten older, they do not have any passion?
LH (02:40:20):
That is my [inaudible]. Because where are they? You do not see them organized. And we named a half a dozen real prominent people that were in that boomer group that stayed all night at our house to go demonstrate against the war, and they have all become very good professionals. They did not have children. Some of them did not have children. Like my oldest daughter, and her husband became a professional. It is a different kind of thing. I do not know. I cannot get hold of it. I do not know that I could interpret it. There is an AARP magazine section, there is a whole big story on the boomer's list. Boomers Mean Business, it says, but I have not read the story yet. But they are asking the same question you are. I guess I will read that and see if I agree. But I do not have to...
SM (02:41:24):
Some of the activists that I have talked to in my interviews have said that the activists themselves have continued to be activists in their own way, in different ways. But that the majority of the population that was not involved never got involved.
LH (02:41:40):
Yes. I just watched the, oh, flashback on Jim Taylor and Joan who sang with him.
SM (02:41:50):
Yeah, Carly Simon.
LH (02:41:52):
Yes, and how they were on drugs and everything. I cannot think of his name right now, but heavy-set guy with a gray beard and gray hair. Crosby would be-
SM (02:42:10):
Yeah, Crosby still is nice and young. Yes.
LH (02:42:14):
Well, he said it was a great life because it was between birth control and Aids. And that sex was fun and drugs, we could try anything, there were no limitations to what we could do. And said now they have to have reunions just to relive that, and trying to bring it back into some, which is alarming.
SM (02:42:43):
Well, the religious, not the Christians but the religious right or the conservatives will attack this era of the boomer generation, (19)60s, (19)70s as this is when the divorce rate started to rise. This is when people did not go to church anymore, they had inner spirituality. They were supposed to be such a social group, a community group, yet they all went internally and into their religion. This was the sexual revolution, drugs were rampant, they had no respect for authority, the protests were about law and order. That is how Reagan came to power in California's governor and as president on the issue of law and order. He was against those students at Berkeley and of course he was against the rise of the Welfare state.
LH (02:43:34):
Where do you see them? I do not see them actually psychologically affected by that, but seemed like they all went to become more wealthy and power, wanting power. I do not know.
SM (02:43:51):
I think the criticism really is of the counterculture and the people that did all those things. They feel that the breakup of the family and everything, everything started going downhill because of that generation. The people making these comments are Newt Gingrich, George Will in his writings, Fox News. Governor Huckabee talks about it all the time on his TV show. Rush Limbal on his radio show, Hannity, they all make these kinds of comments. Of course, that is Fox, but conservatives have been making this for a long time that America really went backward in the (19)60s and the (19)70s in their eyes. It is amazing.
LH (02:44:40):
Okay. Well, I guess we better quit because I just realized that long we have been talking.
SM (02:44:46):
Yeah. I got two more questions and then I am going to be done.
LH (02:44:48):
All right.
SM (02:44:50):
Let us see. Did you have any generation gap issues with your kids?
LH (02:44:56):
Not with my children, but I did when we started our program. We first started our program and we had kids, and we were going to run it and all. We found that identity, cultural identity, and people were trying to out-Indian each other. It was very hurtful, too, whether they lived in the city or they were... We always tried to have non-federally recognized tribes to make that one of the issues that people have to be confronted with. That was one of the main contingents of the group, that they were more Indian than somebody else, and that somebody's feelings were hurt because they felt that people were treating them as equal because they were from a non-federally recognized tribe like the Lumbees of North Carolina. We immediately jumped onto it and created a whole first part of the meeting into that they have to all know about their families, their tribes, their bands. And then the community from which they come, the Anglo community, the state, so that they can put themselves into the reality of who they are. We have a pretty close meeting, usually at my house, where they can talk freely, and it becomes very emotional. Some of the pains that they have gone through, how do they deal with racism if they have experienced it? How to let go of it and not let it control your life, and how not to have the anger that is so destructive it creates destructive behavior. But when I had that, I called one of my board members who was in his (19)60s and helped me with all this work. He said, "Well, how did it go?" I said, "Well, we are having trouble with identity." He said, "Hello, LD, I thought we did that in the (19)60s." I thought we had established identity back then but this generation, they do not have the historical knowledge of their ancestors nor do they have the contemporary knowledge of what happened in the (19)60s, because there is not enough written about it. So, there was that vacuum and that is why we created that Indian 101 to help them see a roadmap of how these things developed and how far down we have gotten in the 1800s. And how we have come up now in the (19)60s and how important the (19)60s were to them. And that it created this environment where they are more educated people and all those things, so they can get a holistic picture of how we got to this place. For ancestors historically and then through the (19)60s, which brought about so much change that created the situation we are not at.
SM (02:48:19):
I have two more questions, then we are done.
LH (02:48:19):
Okay.
SM (02:48:20):
This is a broad one. I am just going to list some names. What was it like working with and getting to know the following people? Now, you do not have to talk about everyone, but maybe there is a couple of anecdotes and I will just list them. President Johnson, Senator Humphrey, Bobby Kennedy, Eugene McCarthy, George McGovern, Wayne Morris, Everett Dirkson, Barry Goldwater, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, Spirow Agnew, Richard Nixon, Senator Hart and Proxmire, NOA Whiker, Baker Gurney, Montoya Irvin, Musky Culver, Ted Kennedy and Margaret Chase Smith. Those were all names that were so well known in the 60s. Then, of course, the women were Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Lindy Boggs, who took over her husband. And then the first ladies, Lady Bird, Mrs. Ford, Mrs. Nixon, Mrs. Schreiber, who you got to know, and Mrs. Carter and Mrs. Reagan. I do not know if you have any anecdotes on these people because you got to know all of them.
LH (02:49:28):
Mm-hmm. Well, Hubert Humphrey was my hero. He was the most... He seemed to be right. I think as we discussed earlier, that he was the real civil rights and that darn convention, democratic convention to make the party take civil rights decision, and all the things that he did. There was something about him. He was so good-natured and when he talked to you, he was talking to you. He always showed a personal interest in and the conversation. He was not looking over his shoulder to see who was next in line. Johnson, we grew up in Oklahoma, so Texas is right over the border. He was much like Oklahomans, so we had a lot in common with him. He was sometimes prude, but his leadership was an interesting phenomenon. Bobby Kennedy was neighbors and a friend, and we were hosted by him and many times. They were very competitive. They even competed with each other, Bobby and Ted, and the Thrivers and their children, adults, would be competitive. It was interesting. They all had assets that you admired and some things that you said, oh my goodness. What drove them in these certain areas [inaudible]. Anyway, it was a wonderful time. I was annoyed with George McGovern because North Dakota was one of the worst states in the Union about Native Americans, and I made a statement thing that South Dakota was our Mississippi. I got a letter from his wife saying how dare I say something like that. He could articulate it, but he did not see it exotic, as in the Black/white relationship and not in... But we were friends, we were social friends, and there was a lot of social... You had dinner parties and you had members of the Senate, usually mostly members of the Senate, and the press, journalists. What do you call them? The dark and the little fish that goes with it? You had them too, because... And I liked the Eudaws. The Eudaws were great Indian advocates and great-
SM (02:52:29):
Oh yeah, Stuart Eudaw.
LH (02:52:29):
Stuart, he just recently died. I was sitting here looking at pictures of he and I. And Lee, his wife, and I did a lot of Indian art exhibits together. We were neighbors and we would share, and we would get to ride on the go with him on the Sequoia. Because we were kind of different, we got invited to so many ridings and going down the river in the Sequoias. Again, even the Republicans, you could talk to them. There were a few Republicans like Goldwater, and I am just trying to give a couple of others that would be invited to Democratic.
SM (02:53:06):
Everett Dirkson.
LH (02:53:08):
Dirkson and one-
SM (02:53:10):
Hugh Scott.
LH (02:53:12):
Yeah.
SM (02:53:12):
Yeah.
LH (02:53:17):
Some way, I got involved with the international, the Moroccans, because... Anyway, it was a wild experience to consider a Comanche girl from Cotton County getting exposed to all of this. It was just a marvelous, marvelous experience. I was just trying to think of how to do that. And we knew the journalist as well as we knew members of the Congress because they were so important to getting the message across as they were trying to...
SM (02:54:03):
Yes.
LH (02:54:04):
Now, that relation does not exist and it seems like we are not really getting good information. There is no investigative, well, the whole journalist.
SM (02:54:14):
My final question is, what is the legacy of Red Power or Native American Movement overall? As time goes by, when the historians are writing the books of this period, what will be the legacy of Red Power or Native American Movement, and what will be the legacy of the boomer generation, in your opinion?
LH (02:54:39):
Well, it was not just Red Power that did it. Well, I guess if you are putting Red Power, it is everybody that was activists are not the same. Are you just using it-
SM (02:54:48):
Yeah, I am using all.
LH (02:54:51):
Oh, okay. Well, we made such almost extreme changes in the federal attitude toward tribes, and that we gained control of our own lives and we were decolonized. That is what I said what the (19)60s did, decolonized us from the Department of Interior. We became now, where tribe used to work together, now they are all working on their individual, strengthening their own tribal government. Now, we have very wealthy tribes. The gaming tribes are over the top and other tribes are better off. We still have pockets, great pockets of property still up in South Dakota. But they have gotten together and they elected Johnson, and we can be swing votes. We found out that we can be swing votes in like New Mexico, Oklahoma, Montana, Arizona. When we get our act together like that, we can really make a difference. We did it for Clinton and for Obama, but we do not do it on a regular basis because leadership changes. But so that we are more involved in the political process.
SM (02:56:20):
What do you think the legacy of the boomer generation will be?
LH (02:56:25):
That they were born. The numbers and how ill-prepared we were for them. The sociologists who study the up and downs of our country gave us no warning that we were going to have this boom, and that created this problem. Then we rushed out and built colleges and overbuilt them for them. Just the peer numbers of them. Of course, that was because of the war. It was just their existence is their legacy. And that they made us change in some ways, and then we did not... But they made us change by the peer numbers of the positions. They took like sex, what is it? Sex, drugs and rock and roll, that period. And it gave a lot of freedom. It opened a lot of minds and freedom for people. So, I would just say that the fact that they existed was their legacy, that made us had to change, shift our gears to accommodate.
SM (02:57:54):
One final additional note here is books. You're obviously very well-read. We all know about Dee Brown's book, but who, in your opinion, are the greatest Native American writers? And that no matter what era anyone was born, if they read their works, they will truly understand the Native American's history in America?
LH (02:58:26):
Vine Deloria. His book, God is Red.
SM (02:58:35):
He would be the number one?
LH (02:58:38):
Yes. There was three books. His first book was best, I think, and then God is Red. And then, so we have got three books that he saw it and articulated it. The other is Scott Momaday. He had one book that was a Pulitzer Prize that cost him. It was talking about urban Indians, reading that, which is half our population. It was the [inaudible] that urban Indians went through. I count that as a very important book, too.
SM (02:59:17):
What is his name?
LH (02:59:17):
Scott Momaday.
SM (02:59:17):
How do you spell that last name?
LH (02:59:19):
M-O-M-A-D-A-Y.
SM (02:59:24):
Okay.
LH (02:59:25):
He is the Kiowa and his book was House Made of Dawn. We were invited to go to his, when he received the Pulitzer Prize. He was the first. He had never received it. Probably the only one to receive a Pulitzer Prize. There is some newcomers, but they're all anger books, angry. They do not give you a sense of direction.
SM (02:59:51):
How about, do you like Winona LaDuke?
LH (02:59:56):
Yeah, but she is narrowly an environmentalist.
SM (03:00:02):
How about Wilma Mankiller?
LH (03:00:05):
Oh, Wilma? Yeah, she wrote a book. She and I wrote it. We are in one book together, Beloved Women. She was at the Alcatraz, and we just lost her last year, latter part of last year. She became an urban Indian, then came back to the reservation. So, she's the picture of the transition of coming back and contributing to the tribe. I think she's symbolic of that. And she had a publisher that became quite a national speaker.
SM (03:00:49):
I am almost done here. Hold on one second. I know this is going to end it. I really appreciate the time that you have given to me. Bobby Kennedy's funeral train. But did you go to Dr. King's funeral?
LH (03:01:06):
No, Fred did.
SM (03:01:07):
Okay.
LH (03:01:08):
He and Bobby went to Doctor... I do not know exactly why I did not go. I think they were, the children, something about the children and I needed to say. Because it was very traumatic for all of us. We all took it so hard and personally because we were so involved, and he was such an image to it. In the same way, of course, with Bobby. The children would go over and swim in their pool and watch movies and do things, because they are special children. And besides, just the adults became friends, not just the children.
SM (03:01:51):
Did Fred ever talk about the picture of Robert Kennedy that was in Life Magazine? He was sitting at the funeral in Ebenezer Baptist Church and the light was coming through the window, and it was right on him. It made the front cover of Life Magazine. Was Fred with him?
LH (03:02:11):
Yes, they walked together in the parade. I mean, not parade, the funeral, the funeral [inaudible].
SM (03:02:21):
Did he ever talk about that after Bobby was killed, the light falling on him in the church?
LH (03:02:30):
No, he did not because... I do not remember. He may have, but it was such a tragic thing. Everybody was mourning in peculiar ways. Same way with when President Kennedy was killed. I remember where I was and how angry I became. I said, "I hope people are satisfied," because in Oakland, they were preaching against him with these Catholics.
SM (03:03:04):
Well, your kids are boomers, and I guess I will end with this. That is, that here we had a president of the United States killed in (19)63 and we had the distinguished civil rights leader killed in (19)68, and then a United States Senator killed exactly two months later in 1968. I know your kids were teenagers or going to college or younger, but how do you explain that as a parent to kids when they see these kinds of things happen, murder in your own country? How were you able to talk to your kids about why, and just being a parent?
LH (03:03:50):
Well, they felt some of those things. They felt them the same way that we did, that they had lost something, and thought why it was they were exposed to the hate. That is what makes the Tea Party people so painful is that their rhetoric is so hurtful. And that we were exposed to that, and during equal, we integrated into Oklahoma and other things, particularly against African-Americans, because it was so overt. And recognizing these. I do not know. I how we dealt with it. I think they felt so sorry for us, too, because we were in such mourning that they were comforting us. I guess that is [inaudible].
SM (03:04:53):
Yeah, and certainly your husband being in the United States Senate, having those two people killed a two-month period of time, it had to change the atmosphere within the Senate, too, I would think.
LH (03:05:04):
Yes, and I am sure it was very worrisome to the children, too, about going out and campaigning for Humphrey after Kennedy was killed. I am sure that they were, well, something, though they never articulated. I guess I was so stuck with my own grief that I would not considered them. Though, we discussed it to some degree and we sent food over and we did things that we're supposed to do to make ourselves feel better. It is an interesting question. I never thought about that.
SM (03:05:50):
I will end with this, and that is I think Dr. King, who was so prophetic in so many ways, and I want to see if you agree with this. He would always say... Let us see, what was the word I was going to say? Oh, my golly. I forgot my train of thought here. It was a word he always used when... Oh. He used to always say, you can kill the dreamer, but you cannot kill the dream.
LH (03:06:13):
Kill the dream. Yes.
SM (03:06:15):
That is a great lesson for young people, no matter what age they are.
LH (03:06:18):
That is right.
SM (03:06:19):
Because if people think they can wipe out a cause, it is like saying, okay, I am going to shoot...
LH (03:06:27):
Like it will stop. Yeah.
SM (03:06:30):
Yeah, it's like if you kill someone, it will stop what is going on. That is ridiculous. It is the idea. It is what is just.
LH (03:06:38):
Look what is happening in Northern Africa. They will never be the same. Just that is a gigantic world change.
SM (03:06:51):
Yeah, it is amazing. I am done. I want to thank you very much.
LH (03:06:56):
Okay.
SM (03:06:56):
You have given me three hours of your time and I really treasure it. I have nine to 10 months of transcribing. My interviews are ending this month, and then I got to just sit and transcribe all these. You will see your transcript. I am going to need two pictures of you, you can send by email to my address. A current picture and then maybe one when you younger with Fred.
LH (03:07:22):
Okay.
SM (03:07:23):
Because those pictures will be at the top of the interview. I was wondering, do you still go out and lecture?
LH (03:07:30):
Yes.
SM (03:07:30):
Have you ever gone out and lectured with your former husband?
LH (03:07:34):
Well, we did. Before we divorced we did. But we are very good friends and these other... Well, let us see. When our son comes in from LA, we always have a lunch. We manage to see each other at least once a month.
SM (03:07:50):
Well, I know when I interviewed him last summer, actually towards the latter part, he has tremendous respect for you. He brought up several points when I was interviewing him about, "You got to talk to LaDonna because she is the leader of this." You were an unbelievable team, and boy, what a life you have lived. You have got your legacy.
LH (03:08:11):
Yeah.
SM (03:08:12):
You have your legacy, and it is not only in your kids but it is in your deeds. I hope I can meet you sometime.
LH (03:08:19):
Yeah, that is what I was thinking. Maybe when I come back. I am right now going through a little cancer scare, so I am thinking sometime-
SM (03:08:28):
Well, I hope you are okay.
LH (03:08:29):
Yes, but I have to go through this medication. As soon as I get through that, I am going to California, Pennsylvania and start working on their institute, helping work on creating that institute.
SM (03:08:45):
Well, geez, I will drive over and meet you. We will take you to lunch.
LH (03:08:48):
Yes, and I have a crazy... Our only non-Indian board member is a crazy Greek. Dr. Christoff is there in Pittsburgh, and I was hoping he could come down. Maybe we can all get together and talk.
SM (03:09:03):
Yeah, and I could take some pictures, too. I was thinking, I have gotten to know Rennie Davis, the (19)60s radical. I do not know if you knew this, he became a multi-millionaire.
LH (03:09:16):
No.
SM (03:09:16):
Oh, yeah. You go on his website. Rennie is very successful. He went into some sort of technology business and made lots of money, then he sold it. Now, he has been doing spirituality stuff. One thing about him, when he left the anti-war movement in the late (19)60s or early (19)70s, a lot of the guys like Tom Hayden were saying, this guy has gone into a strange direction because he was into inner spirituality and all this other stuff. But he was the intellectual of the anti-war movement. He was the smart guy. He went to Oberlin College in Michigan. Now, because of what has been happening with the protests in Wisconsin and elsewhere, he's inspired now to go back out and talk. He hasn't talked about the (19)60s in 30 years.
LH (03:10:02):
Golly.
SM (03:10:03):
It's driving him. I interviewed him in Washington last summer when he was on one of his spirituality trips with his assistant, so he's a Facebook friend of mine. Now, he and Bobby Sealer are starting to go out next fall on the lecture circuit again, talking about this is the time, protest is necessary. America's going through some unbelievable changes.
LH (03:10:28):
I cannot understand how people can work and be so avid against their own self-interest. Like those Tea Party people are tearing down the unions and killing the middle class, being against... Can you imagine those poor people being against health?
SM (03:10:50):
Well, some people are comparing the Tea Party people to the anti-war movement of the (19)60s. I do not agree with that.
LH (03:10:59):
No. There was a positive outcome that they were trying to see.
SM (03:11:04):
Right.
LH (03:11:07):
You cannot see anything positive coming out of the [inaudible].
SM (03:11:09):
Yeah, and the unions are under assault. Oh, my goodness.
LH (03:11:13):
I know.
SM (03:11:13):
They are called thugs in Pennsylvania. Anyways.
LH (03:11:18):
Okay, we will get on another-
(End of Interview)
Description
2 Microcassettes
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Interview with Ladonna Harris
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Harris, Ladonna ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Civil rights workers; Political activists--United States; Comanche Indians; Politicians--United States--Oklahoma; National Urban Coalition (U.S.); Americans for Indian Opportunity; Harris, Ladonna--Interviews
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Ladonna Harris is a Comanche Native American social activist and politician from Oklahoma. In addition, she is the founding member of Common Cause and the National Urban Coalition. Harris is also the president of the group Americans for Indian Opportunity. She has been an outspoken advocate on the agendas of the civil rights, feminist, environmental and world peace movements.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2011-03-08
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.129a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.129b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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191:34
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b4d90ba1e9c94c5c2e6d1042172dc847.mp3
5c447201f92ca6814b58f595563085ff
Dublin Core
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Broome County Oral History Project
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Broome County -- History
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Binghamton University Libraries
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The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
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2
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
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1977-1978
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Templeton, Lena
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Dobandi, Susan
Date of Interview
1978-02-01
Collection
Broome County Oral History Project
Date of Digitization
2016-03-27
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
13:26 Minutes
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56039">Interview with Lena Templeton</a>
Subject LCSH
Templeton, Lena -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Pleasantmount (Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Ansco Company -- Employees -- Interviews; Volunteers
Dance class
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Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Lena Templeton
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of Interview: 1 February 1978
Susan: Mrs. Templeton, could you tell us a little about your early beginnings, where you were born?
Lena: I was born in Pleasantmount, PA, on a little farm. A–and I lived there ‘til I was about seven years old. I started school there and the school teacher used to live with us during the bad winter weather, which we had piles and piles of snow in those days. We lived down there and my father used to hitch the jackass up to a little sleigh and we would go to school through the woods and then he’d have to come and get us and it was a one room school house and uh just sometimes the fire was out and we would freeze ah it was really something. Well, I went to school there a couple of years and and–ah then ah–my family–we moved to Pleasantmount in the village. That was outside about 3 miles where I started school, so we moved to the village and my father was in the livery business–raced horses around to the fairs and ah–I went to school there–a–I went to high school–I was in the eleventh grade and my father he moved to New York State.
Ah–was working for a realtor–oh Mr. Hoffman and they had a lot of land up to Conklin and they said they were going to fix it up and that lasted a few years and a when I was–a–18 years old I went to work to take care of twins and I stayed there nine months and then ah Dr. George Fox, a skin specialist in Binghamton on Main St.–ah–he wanted me to come and take care of the office for him. They had no nurses those days, you know. They they took care of their own. So, I went there and I was there for 5 ½ years. So, when I was 24 I was married and still around Binghamton and had four children–had twin girls and I a got married of course when I was 24 years old.
And something interesting too, my father-in-law came over from Scotland, Ireland in a boat and I can't tell how many–a weeks or months they were coming over but just in an open boat. They came over from Scotland, Ireland and I never did see him but ah it is ah my father-in-law used to tell about what a rough time it was and that it was a miracle that they made it you know. At that time there was no transportation by water. That was a good many years ago.
Well, I brought up my family and went to work at Ansco's. I was 42 years old and it was during the war and I ah loved my work. I did everything. I did packing. I took a man's job at one time as stock girl and I did perforating the film ah but the last 12 years there, I was a group leader and I enjoyed it and I missed it when I retired, very much. I enjoyed the friends I made and a it was a good place to work and it was those days a lot different than it is today. I started out at about $25 a week and when I finished up I was making better than a hundred clear. So–ah–that a was a very a interesting work and I made a lot of friends and I still have them so now I ended up retired and working here 8 years and I–really my life's not too interesting. (chuckle)
Susan: Well, it’s nice to–to be useful and that you’re helpful keeping house for this gentleman.
Lena: Oh and he appreciates it a lot. You know, one of his daughters is married to Dr. Gilmore.
Susan: Oh, did she?
Lena: Yes, that’s her coming in now.
Susan: Where does he practice?
Lena: Oh, he’s had a heart attack. He’s not practicing anymore. They’re in Florida, they’re just up here for business. That’s his wife. That’s his daughter—they don’t come too much.
Susan: Mrs. Templeton, let’s continue when you retired from Ansco. What you did with your life?
Lena: When I retired from Ansco the first year I was lost for something to do so I took up dancing took lessons for a year and I enjoyed it so much. It was something that I wanted to do all my life and a we traveled around and put shows on here and there and a it was very enjoyable and I use it now I feel so relaxed and free if I go out now, you know, I’m able to do most all the dances.
And then I was–a–just a by myself and I thought there is something I can do. So I watched the paper–they wanted somebody to come in to take care of an elderly couple so I started down there and I enjoyed it and a I’m still there. It will be 8 years this month that I have been here and it gives me something to do and it’s very satisfying to think that you’re helping somebody each day.
Susan: And now I don’t think you’d mind telling us how old you are?
Lena: No. I’ll be 77 April 27th.
Susan: Well, that is wonderful.
Lena: Ha–ha–But those dancing lessons, I really got a lot out of them. You know my daughters were so happy when I did it. All my life I–I wanted to I could dance, but not really good you know. But a–we went all over Elmira and put on dances. We had a ball. We had dance frocks and I felt so elegant. And you know, if there is something a–a–if there is something in your mind that you’d like to do–you have the opportunity to do it, it’s good to do it get it over with because you’re so satisfied with yourself that you accomplished it you know.
Susan: That’s right.
Lena: You’d be surprised those senior citizens how beautiful they dance just marvelous and some of those old ladies they’re in their 80s, they can just step around there like a feather beautiful, do all the new dances, the Bump. They do everything not just the waltz and foxtrot and what have you. They do everything. You should see it would be worth it just to go over and see them. Once a month they have a dinner and a dinner dance and they have live music, you know and you’d be surprised to see them, it’s really marvelous.
Susan: Well, I think I am going to make a point to go and watch some of the activities since I have been talking with people.
Lena: Sure, you just enjoy watching them. I haven’t been up recently. I had a bad knee. I had bursitis in it and I didn’t get–I got into work and back but I didn’t take in any of the you know–activities. I went to the State Hospital every month like that, but a–
Susan: Is that part of your voluntary work in the community?
Lena: Yeah–uh ha–yeah.
Susan: What did you do there?
Lena: Where? State Hospital?
Susan: Yeah.
Lena: We took refreshments there were about five or six of us went up a and that was from the Moose Club. We were members of the Moose Club and we took refreshments, sandwiches and cake and we–a–played bingo ‘til nine o’clock and then Easter we gave them a party, Christmas we gave them a party and in July we gave them a big dinner–half a chicken, watermelon and baked beans and salads. You never saw such a happy crowd in all your life. And we have about 75-80 of them that are able you know enjoy it and play bingo and what have you. It was really–is satisfying when I first went up there it was kind of depressing but now, I wouldn’t miss it for anything because when I go home I feel so good. They are just such happy faces. When you go there they are all waving at you you know and if you have different jewelry on they’ll say where’s your cameo, where is this or where is that you know they really are–they really are so happy to see you and some of them they–they you know aren’t able to come but that picnic–they look forward to it. They are talking about it for weeks before we go up there. If it’s nice we have it outdoors, if not, we have it inside. But that’s a big job. We fix the chickens at the Moose Club you know and take them up in roasters and we fix salads and watermelon usually–they do love watermelon but they have a ball. They feed them good up there but there’s things that they don’t get you know. They get good substantial food you know but not–not any goodies up there that you ordinarily get at home.
So, I really was busy before I came to work but it’s like my daughters say to me, you know they kid me a lot they say, “Mother you know what, it’s gotten to the point where we have to make an appointment with you in order to get you on the phone or anything,” because I’m never home.
Susan: Tell us about how you go bowling with them.
Lena: How I go bowling with them?
Susan: At your age.
Lena: Oh well I bowl once a week and I bowl with my twin daughters and two granddaughters and we have a ball. I look forward to it every week and I’d miss it if I didn’t go. It really is relaxing and no matter how tired I am when I bowl I feel relaxed. I go home and I feel like a new person. It’s always been that way. I bowled when I was at Ansco’s too you know so I don’t bowl as well as I used to but we’re second place we were last year so we don’t mind.
Susan: Well, you certainly have been a very active woman in the community.
Lena: Yes, thank you I have and I was active when I brought my family up too you better believe it. I had twins and I nursed them 8 ½ months without a bottle and did my own work and had one 2 years old at the time too so I had three babies.
Susan: Well thank you very much for the interview Mrs. Templeton.
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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Title
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Interview with Lena Templeton
Subject
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Templeton, Lena -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Pleasantmount (Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Ansco Company -- Employees -- Interviews; Volunteers
Description
An account of the resource
Lena Templeton talks about her childhood growing up on a farm in Pleasantmount, PA and her early education, and eventually moving to New York state. She discusses early work taking care of the office of a skin specialist in Binghamton, NY then getting married and having children, and finding work at Ansco's during the war. She details working at Ansco's including tasks she performed. She speaks about her interests and activities (dancing) as a retiree and her volunteer work in the community.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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audio/mp3
Language
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English
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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Recording 60
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3bcab5d4c67ef94cf99c878ad8118575.mp3
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eb73506bbae5cf3912d5e771970a2a86
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Oral Histories
Title
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
An account of the resource
In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
Creator
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Irene Gashurov
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2017-2018
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2018-10-18
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lenore Ruth Greenberg
Year of Graduation
1972
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
After earning her degree at Binghamton, Lenore earned a master’s degree in library sciences from SUNY Albany. She worked in records management at numerous companies, including <span>Iron Mountain LLC.</span> She was also adjunct professor of records management at Nassau Community College in Garden City, NY. <span>Partners since 1985, Ms. Greenberg and her wife Ms. Roberta Treacy were early champions of marriage equality. They met while working </span><span>at Anchor Savings Bank in Brooklyn. </span>
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in library science; Harpur College – Alumni from Great Neck, Long Island; Harpur College – Alumni living in Malverne, Long Island; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni
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Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni
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Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Lenore Ruth Greenberg
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 18 October 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
LG: 00:02
So, my name is Lenore Greenberg. I am a 1972 graduate of Harpur College. I have been- I left Harpur and got a master's at SUNY Albany, (19)74 in library science, and I am now happily retired, we are sitting in Malvern having a discussion about my memories or recollections from the (19)60s, and I hope other things too,
IG: 00:30
Very good. So where- just tell us a little bit about where you grew up, what your parents did, what your upbringing was like.
LG: 00:40
Okay, I grew up on Long Island in Great Neck. My father was an account executive, and my mom was a quote and quote, homemaker. When I was in seventh grade, she started again, working outside the house, starting with the with the Girl Scouts. And I had two siblings. We lived in a one family house with the dog and the two parents and the three children. And my dad had gone to college. He had a degree in chemistry. My mother, who was very bright, had not gone to college, and I do not know what else I should tell you about that.
IG: 01:27
Well, that gives us a sense so you were encouraged to pursue your studies. I take it.
LG: 01:40
No, I was not discouraged. Certainly, my brother did not go to college. My sister and I both did. And yeah, I guess I was supported to go to college, not with a particular career path in mind, because I did not know what I wanted to do, and so I wanted to get a good general education, which is part of how I ended up at Harpur and then subsequently made a career path. But my parents were supportive, and they were proud of me for going to school and going to a good school and graduating.
IG: 02:22
Good, so why did you decide on Harpur College? Did you look at other schools?
LG: 02:29
I did, certainly look at other schools. I transferred into Harpur after my freshman year. I was at a local school, and I just did not feel it was giving me enough of what I was looking for, I applied to several of the SUNYs happily got into them, and the program at Harpur was more to my liking. I went to visit. I am not going to mention the other ones. I went to visit, and I liked what I saw more at Binghamton. Then when I saw at the other schools, part of what I liked was the size of the school, and I think it is a lot bigger now, from what I have been reading, but I looked at some of the different university centers, and Binghamton seemed a nicer fit for me.
IG: 03:16
Right. So, and what year did you enter Binghamton? What was the when you transferred? What year was that?
LG: 03:24
My sophomore year, and which would have been (19)69, (19)70.
IG: 03:29
(19)69. So, what did the campus what was the campus like? What was the environment like when you came in?
LG: 03:35
In terms of the buildings, they were not it was they were not too pretty. They were utilitarian. And certainly, most of the time it seemed like there was snow on the campus, but the I think educational opportunities were outstanding, and I then had a school experience to compare it to. And in fact, one summer, I also took a course at the local community college because I wanted to get some more credits under my belt. And I just thought Binghamton was a nicer intellectual environment-
IG: 04:23
Right-right.
LG: 04:23
-than the others I had experienced.
IG: 04:25
Right. So, and what were the- your fellow students like this was a time of great change and ferment on campuses, on college campuses, what did you experience of that?
LG: 04:45
And-and I had a sense that Binghamton was a little bit more out there than some other schools, too.
IG: 04:51
Yeah.
LG: 04:53
A lot of the other students, I knew. It was when I was at Harpur. And I am using the terms kind of interchangeably obviously, a lot of the other students were down staters were predominantly but not in all Jewish Americans. And there was certainly a diversity, but it was a disproportionately white down state school environment. I think I lost the rest of your question.
IG: 05:23
So just what were the students like? So, you are describing that, that they were kind of more out there, and it was-
LG: 05:31
I will give you a perfect example out there. Perfect example. It was not until my senior year of school that I had spring finals, because every other year the school closed down for protests against the Vietnam War.
IG: 05:46
Wow, that is great.
LG: 05:47
And one year I remember going to Washington by bus. One year I remember going to Washington in somebody's Volkswagen, but we went and we marched, and 1000s people left Harpur to go protest the war.
IG: 06:04
Okay, so did your parents- were your parents politically inclined? Were they?
LG: 06:10
Not until Kent State, my parents were-
IG: 06:13
They reacted to it.
LG: 06:14
Yes, my parents were not enthusiastic. I was going off on these various marches and that that school was closed for us to go protest the Vietnam War after Kent State, my father, who was even more conservative than my mother, said he supported the end of the war and understood what we were doing, remembering, of course, that There was a draft at that point and so, a draft for young men, and so all young men were being caught up in that it was not a volunteer military, and that made a huge difference. So, there was the-the political and economic reasons, and there was the draft reasons. People certainly did not want to get involved. I knew people who went to Canada rather than get drafted if they had a low draft number. So-so there was a politically active environment. I still went to school and I still learned things, but there were a lot of politics going on. I saw- you might be thinking about things like women's rights and gay rights. There was some early Inklings when I was at Harpur, but I would not say a lot. There was a gay association meeting, but I do not think there were a lot of people who showed up for it. I do not know for sure. I for sure. And feminism was something that, philosophically, one believed in, but there was not a lot of consciousness raising yet. So, it was really on the cusp of a lot of these things.
IG: 07:53
I think, I think that that is the sense that I have gotten from other alumni I have interviewed. So, I am just curious, where did your obviously, you were very engaged in the politics of the time. Where did you politicize- how did your politicization come about? Was it from high school? It was, did it happen at Harpur College? Do you remember how that happened?
LG: 08:22
It is a good question. I would have to say kind of yes and yes. In high school, lots of people were concerned, involved doing things about civil rights, and think there was an evolution to the, to-to world view. And of course, a disproportionate number of the soldiers of American soldiers in Vietnam were minority soldiers, so it was a likely evolution. As an example, when I was in high school, Martin Luther King spoke at my synagogue, and he spoke about civil rights, [crosstalk] yeah,
IG: 09:04
I did not know.
LG: 09:05
And he spoke about, of course, civil right. And I remember one of the congregants said to him, "What about the war in Vietnam? What is your stance?" His answer at that point was, I am paraphrasing wildly, was basically, "I have enough on my plate trying to deal with civil rights at home." This was before the Voting Rights Act had been passed. Shortly thereafter, he came out against the war in Vietnam, because it is all interrelated. And so, from high school, there were political issues going on at Harpur, it was even more so. There was more of an awareness. And whether it was other students or some of the faculty or articles in the newspaper, the campus paper, or information on the news, there was more of an awareness. And I think virtually everybody I socialized with, if not literally everyone who I considered friends would were equally involved and motivated to do something specifically about the war and then about other issues as well.
IG: 10:17
So-so, you know, I mean, it was, it was you were, you were in the I do not know how many marches on Washington there were, but you were, you were there. Could you describe how you sort of rallied together as a group and went on one of these marches?
LG: 10:40
I have been to Washington many times for different marches
IG: 10:45
As a Harpur College student?
LG: 10:46
Right-right. So, there were things having been there even before on other marches, there were things I was used to, things I would look at. And I have also been to Washington since then for other protest marches. So, I remember one year going down, and I think that was the year we took the bus. We all busses out of Binghamton, and we stayed more or less as a group and followed the route that had been set. But I remember the following year when we were in cars, and this was salient to how I traveled, because we came into the city by a different route, and seeing tanks and soldiers with guns, machine guns, on top of federal buildings. And whereas that certainly was both meant to and accomplished intimidation. It was meant to intimidate us. It also redoubled our spirit that we were there for a reason to tell the government what they had to do, not agree, just to let things go on as they are. So, we marched this group. I do not remember if we launched behind any banner that said SUNY Binghamton or not, but there were 1000s, or 10s of 1000s, certainly, of people protesting the war. And when we read about it the next day in the paper or we saw it on the TV news, we felt we were trying, we were accomplishing something to get our voices heard that this was an inappropriate action by our government.
IG: 12:21
That, you know, it must be a tremendous experience to have a sense that at a young age, your actions can actually influence world politics, world you know, I do not know that this generation has the sense.
LG: 12:39
Which generation you are talking?
IG: 12:40
Well, the current, you know-
LG: 12:41
I think-
LG: 12:42
I think, for example, on gun control, the people, I hope, are at Harpur now, I think are more involved in trying to get some sane gun laws passed, because they were feeling more impacted by it. The baby boomers definitely impacted what was going on in Vietnam and definitely impacted foreign policy. That is huge thing. I expected my generation to keep doing things like that, and I think we have done some other things, but not as dramatic,
IG: 12:42
-certainly-
IG: 13:14
Not as dramatic as (19)60s.
LG: 13:16
Well, you have to have something dramatic to fight against to have some dramatic results. And-and
IG: 13:23
As we do now.
LG: 13:24
And so, for example, we have gone to the women's march in DC, and
IG: 13:32
But that was after your time at Harpur. This was-
LG: 13:35
Yes, two years ago. I am saying, for example,
IG: 13:37
I see.
LG: 13:39
So, there is a continuity of social activism.
IG: 13:42
That is wonderful.
LG: 13:44
Or we have gone to some gun-gun control rallies. So, I think there is a continuity. And I know I am in touch still with a couple of people who I went to school with, and I know one was a lawyer who deals with immigration rights, so she has made it her career to help people. And another one, who was, who was an artist also does social or volunteer work, I think is the best word with a very diverse group. So, I think there is a thread that is followed through. I feel from my time at Harpur, I think other people probably do too.
IG: 14:33
I think, you know, it is certainly true, but they express their engagement with the-the world in different ways, you know, they may not have been, as the people that I have spoken to, you know, continue being participants in group protest. I think that this is, you know, this is your-your path. This is
LG: 15:01
One of the famous quotes out of early feminism. Is the personal is political. So however, you take it, to implement it if you have an emotional or political stance that something should be this way or that way?
IG: 15:15
Yeah, well, let us talk about this a little bit. Because, you know, in the late (19)60s, certainly, you know, this is a time of rethinking roles and in the household, and you know you were, you were brought up, maybe in a certain way, and you know, maybe to, I do not know, I do not want to put words into your mouth that, you know, maybe your parents expected you to get married, you know, to have a family or not. But you know, how did that sort of, you know, expanding of consciousness take place, and was it at all at college or?
LG: 15:59
Certainly, I think it was expected that I would, I would have the more traditional life path and find a husband and have some kids and follow that path, which obviously I have not. I think more of the consciousness raising was post Binghamton years more so when I was in graduate school, I think feminist movement got more of its legs under it, or at least I knew more about it at that point.
IG: 16:29
What years did you go to graduate at-
LG: 16:31
I graduated in (19)74 and this is from SUNY Albany.
IG: 16:36
Yeah, so, but-but sort of, you know, feminism, the feminist movement. When did it start kicking in in the late (19)70s, or, you know, I mean-
LG: 16:49
Oh no, early-early, way earlier. Sidebar, I was at a dinner at which Gloria Steinem spoke and I rifled through some of my old stuff, and I found my first copy of MS Magazine, and I took it to her and got her to sign it my prized possession. And she looked at the cover, and it shows Wonder Woman striding over the land and saying, health care for everyone and food for everyone and end the war. And Gloria Steinem said to me, "Would not it be wonderful if we could have accomplished that in these years?" And I said, "Who was still working for it?" And so, there is things do not happen overnight. And we still keep looking for them.
IG: 17:36
Yeah. But it is, it is, it is tremendous how you know, what a sea change mores, you know, norms, yes, social norms have undergone, you know, and since you graduated.
LG: 17:54
Yes, absolutely-absolutely, most of the- I was an English Lit major.
IG: 18:01
Yeah, tell us, we need to talk about it.
LG: 18:03
Okay, most of the authors whose works I studied were men.
IG: 18:10
Yes.
LG: 18:13
With very few exceptions. And so, one could graduate at that point and think that the only literature had been written by men.
IG: 18:25
Well, with the exception of Austin and Brontes.
LG: 18:28
Yes, I said, yeah. [crosstalk] But really, far fewer than-
IG: 18:33
Far fewer, of course, of course.
LG: 18:36
-just a whole different world, and not only men, but European men.
IG: 18:39
Yes.
LG: 18:40
So, the voices we heard were very different than what a curriculum is now. And I have, I have spoken to friends of mine who are either professors or even high school teachers, and asked them and gotten book record. Asked them what-what their curriculum is, what-what, who was- what authors they are reading, got recommendations and follow through on things like that. Because I feel that my education, although wonderful, was very stilted/ We did not know it. Then, of course
IG: 19:12
We did not know that. We did not know that.
LG: 19:13
We thought, we thought, well, these are the voices, whereas, obviously they were some of the voices.
IG: 19:15
There were some of the voices right.
LG: 19:24
Even I took a course specifically in American Jewish fiction. And I was thinking about this the other day when I knew-
IG: 19:35
Bella Roth.
LG: 19:37
All-all of the writers we studied exactly-
IG: 19:41
Were men.
LG: 19:42
-were men. Now, subsequently-
IG: 19:45
Yeah, subsequently.
LG: 19:46
-I know that there have been women writers, and fine women writers. Should have been included. It was just, shall I say, an assumption, yeah, this is who you would study. So, there was built in by. Bias that I believe has been rectified in coursework these days, but when I was there, it was not.
IG: 20:09
So, was it frightening? Was it frightening to kind of go against the grain in some way, or I mean, what was the emotional impact of that?
LG: 20:21
In terms of?
IG: 20:23
In terms of, you know, of siding with siding with the activists, the feminist activists, and-
LG: 20:32
Certainly, being an activist against war in Vietnam was something that virtually everybody at Harpur did, so that was siding with, siding with, with people who were there, yeah, becoming more feminist was, is, and still is somewhat challenged by people. But when you, when something is, you do it, right choice. It is the right thing.
IG: 21:04
Right. So, but that is that is looking at the past, you know, that is looking at the past from the perspective of now, but it might have been, you know, anyway. I mean, it is just, it is interesting to consider that, you know, you still probably have to go through some kind of emotional journey, right?
LG: 21:24
Sure-sure.
IG: 21:25
Yeah, okay, so-so, you know, let us How did you, you know, let us talk about your easier subjects, your-your coursework, and some memorable professors and-
LG: 21:41
Coursework professors. That is been a few years. So, I may not come up with names as readily. Because it just, you know, other things that I am thinking about. There were some very large lecture halls, and then we would have teaching assistants who might do some follow up classwork with us. I do not know if that is still a structure in use.
IG: 22:03
Probably.
LG: 22:04
As the years went on, the classes got smaller because they were more specialized. They were less generalized. And so that one class I mentioned was, I am thinking, two dozen students, an off the cuff guesstimate, and I remember some of the professors and the outstanding ones I thought were extraordinary. I thought they were wonderful. But I do not know that I am going to come up with any of their names.
IG: 22:35
It does not it does not matter what were some of the classes that you took that still have maybe an impact, that they open something for you.
LG: 22:46
So certainly, some of the Shakespeare classes were wonderful, and American literature I found meaningful and in which way, in which way, learning about new things, learning about new subjects, topics, issues that I had not known about. I mean, as a kid, I did not know about them, Shakespeare, in terms of all he brings to any of his plays in human aspects and how people deal with one another. I took a course in the Bible is literature, yeah, and I had not occurred to me that that even could have been taught that way, and learning the-the logic of the flow of the Bible was just a mind expansion for one of description and so and so. What I think I got out of a lot of it was not only new thoughts, but ways to think of things, not necessarily the ways I had thought of them before. That it was that anything I was looking at were opportunities to think about them in a different path.
IG: 24:01
That is very interesting. Okay, so returning also to campus. So, you-you were very involved in the anti-war movement, but you know how and-and your classes, obviously, how did you spend the rest of your free time on campus was, was Harpur College? Was it still Harpur College a party school? Did? Were there parties? Were there? I mean, how did-
LG: 24:40
I would not think of it as a quote, unquote party school, because my definition of a party school is that-that is the main reason some people are there. Now I had one friend who was absolutely partying all the time, but she never graduated. And yes, I would have to say there were parties, but um, not capriciously, people, by and large, did also study or go to school, and that was the main reason we were there. I remember one night, somebody said we should have a party, and somebody else said, “We need an excuse. What is the reason?” somebody in this group looked at the calendar and said, "Oh, it is Arizona Statehood Day." So, we had an Arizona Statehood Day party that went on for several years. [crosstalk] the dorm [crosstalk]I have no idea if it continues. It was an excuse for a party, but I do not think of it as primarily a party school. There was great camaraderie, there was great socialization. Sometimes just walk down the hall and fall into somebody else's dorm room and, you know, talk for hours and hours. But it was not specifically a let us go out and drink school when I was there.
IG: 25:52
And there were, in particularly, a lot of bars to go drinking.
LG: 25:56
I do not recall a lot of bars in the neighborhood at all.
IG: 25:59
Well, you know, and Binghamton, I mean, you come from Great Neck, so you were, I mean, Long Island was different when you were growing up, right than it is now. So, you probably had seen sort of, you know, pockets of more rural life around you in Long Island. But how did Binghamton strike you; did it give you a sense that America is very different than your particular, you know, New York experience.
LG: 26:31
Hmm.
IG: 26:33
Did- I mean? What? What did you think of Binghamton?
LG: 26:37
We have already discussed what I thought of the weather, so that was not a selling point. And the area, I did not think the city was too sophisticated. Trying to get a good bagel was virtually impossible. We had a friend who was a Vietnam vet, and his job was to drive down to Monticello and come back with his Volkswagen filled with bagels to be sold on the weekend in Binghamton. But any other time of the week, if you wanted to get a bagel, it was a hard thing to find a decent bagel. So obviously not a problem on Long Island at that point or this point either. So, Binghamton seemed a lot more, a lot less sophisticated than the island at that point. And that may be snobbery from where I grew up, or it may be a reflection of the times. But speaking of the times, you could not get the New York Times easily in Binghamton. You pre order it, but it was not readily available.
IG: 27:48
You mean the library did not carry it.
LG: 27:49
I do not know if the library got it, but you could not get your own copy. I know that. Whereas, couple years later, when I was in Albany, there were new stands where I could get the times. So, BMW was not the most sophisticated area. But I was not there for-for museums or theater, for example. I was there for the school. So, although I do remember Roberson Gallery, I do not know if it is still there.
IG: 28:15
It is. It is.
LG: 28:16
That that that plate that I had given to my parents, the one on the bottom there.
IG: 28:20
I can see it from-from-from here. Yeah, yeah, it still exists. And there is a wonderful art museum also that you know has sort of astonishingly good, surprisingly good exhibitions. It has, I do not know if you know the photographer, Jay Jaffee, they are all photo, you know, I mean, it is the entire collection. I have them on my iPhone because I sent them to friends. It is New York in the early (19)50s. It is wonderful-wonderful.
LG: 28:43
No, I remember going to that gallery specifically to get, kind of, shall I say, a fix of art, to see some art. thinking it was a very accessible size, right? Metropolitan in New York, and it was overwhelming, but we could go to that one and really, get a good night that we could appreciate of the artwork.
IG: 29:13
Yeah, I mean their pockets, their pockets of culture, you know, theater, for example,
LG: 29:18
And-and there was a lot of music, a lot of music, music, yes, at Harpur, when I was there, both live music, there were some wonderful concerts and a range of artists
IG: 29:30
On campus?
LG: 29:31
On campus, yes, a range of artists. And then people were always playing music on their phonographs to drink that story. But when I was at Harpur there, Ella Fitzgerald came,
IG: 29:44
Oh well.
LG: 29:44
Grateful Dead were there Sha Na Na. And then smaller venues, smaller performers like Dave Van Ronk, so there was a wide swath of live music. And, and we went, you know, you would go, you get a ticket for a few bucks and have this wonderful performance. outstanding. So that was part of the social life too.
IG: 30:13
That was part of the social Yeah, very much so, and probably greater participation from students then than now. I do not know how many students go to the concerts now, so you mentioned that you earlier that you did not really spend the summers in on campus because it was going there was a tri semester-
LG: 30:37
Yes.
IG: 30:38
-system, so you return to Long Island during the summer? Did you work? Or did you just kind of kick back?
LG: 30:48
One summer, I went to one of local colleges to get some more credits. And the other summers, I worked basically as a waitress for restaurants-
LG: 30:58
Right-right-right.
LG: 30:59
to get some cash.
IG: 31:01
Right-right-right. So, you know, issues of the time, we talked about the war, we talked about the civil rights. Were there any did you notice that there were any minority students on campus?
LG: 31:17
Absolutely, absolutely, and it was not segregated.
IG: 31:22
No.
LG: 31:23
People I considered my group of friends were different backgrounds, different races, um, although, as I said before, it was clearly majority white, downstate students there, a mixed community.
IG: 31:47
You know, in on campus, you are probably just a handful.
LG: 31:51
I do not, I do not think there were a lot of minorities.
IG: 31:54
There were not a lot of- any international students, do you remember?
LG: 31:57
I remember one student from, from Iran,
IG: 32:01
Oh!
LG: 32:02
And but I do not remember students right other places
IG: 32:08
Right. Okay, that is fair enough. Okay, so have you been going back to Binghamton for any of the homecoming celebration?
LG: 32:19
I have not gone back to Binghamton. In fact, we were discussing before, how is I worked as a consultant for quite a while. At one point I had a client upstate, and we drove by. And I thought, well, I could stop in, but the place in my mind is set in my mind, and it is very much different place now. And I have not gone to homecoming because the people I was friendly with, I have not seen their names listed as they were going. And just to see other people my age, I can do that anywhere. So, I have not gone back to the school.
IG: 32:59
I was surprised that there were at least 1000 you know, names. I do not know how many showed up for this particular homecoming.
LG: 33:11
Now, I will say, just interrupt you a second. A couple of years ago, I did. We went into the city, met a couple of friends who had been on my dorm floor. They had recently had a lunch with another friend who had come up from Florida. I was not able to make that and I said, but let me know if there was another opportunity we got together, and I have kept contact with one of them, although the other one has gone away. So, it is a more personal self-development, if you will, without going to the campuses.
IG: 33:43
Okay, that is fair enough. So, you know you graduated, and could you give us a sense of your career trajectory after-after graduation, you went to library schools, right?
LG: 33:58
So, I got my master's two years later from SUNY Albany school library science. And my personal goal was to help people find information. And first job I got was in a not for profit for people with severe physical disabilities. And had a research program. I was helping the research get done and involved in some of the research activities, a wonderful program, and it ended when the federal grant ended, and it was not a good economic time. And I had-
IG: 34:32
Was this in New York City, or this is-
LG: 34:35
Long Island. I had applied all over the country, and ended up getting something within 10 miles of where I lived. When that grant ended, I looked very hard to find a new job, and could not find anything at that point within the library field, and I was open to other opportunities because I wanted a job, and I got a job in records management with a bank in Brooklyn. And they wanted somebody who knew how to handle information. And it was a small bank that grew dramatically during the decade or so that I was there, not just because I was there, obviously the way it was managed, but when we would acquire another bank, it meant, what information did they have. How were they managing and how did they control it? How did they get rid of the information when it was time? Did they have a role for what to keep and what to get rid of? And so, I was involved in those merger activities. From there, I went to the music industry. So, it was kind of a pun on records management, because they music industry has to deal with records and sound records and informational records. And I did that for about a decade.
IG: 35:49
What was the did you work for a company or organization?
LG: 35:53
Worked for a Performing Rights Society. So, we had to track when different songs were performed and the audience who had the opportunity to hear them, a Binghamton station has a smaller audience than a New York City Station, and then royalties would be paid out to those performers, specifically the writers and the publishers and the music, rather than the performers, per se. And I did that for, as I said, about a decade, and then segued back into more of a business world and into consulting, where I did work for a company, so I had his salary and benefits and all that, but had different clients and helped them develop or implement records management program.
IG: 36:41
And also, the field changed with automation.
LG: 36:46
All of all these fields change, whether we are talking library science or records management. For example, you have your primary copies of information the-the way a record is initially developed, and then when it is digitized, it is secondary copy, but it is available to more people, so we would do the same sort of things. I had a client who was a big real estate company headquartered in New York City, and they wanted to take their various leases and legal documents and digitize them to safeguard the originals, but have access to the information. And you know, sure your library is doing similar things with original yes versus secondary copies.
IG: 37:31
And when did the records management, you know, industry become automated? Was it in the early (19)90s, or do you rem-
LG: 37:43
Again, things evolve. Formats evolve. So, you had microfilm going back decades, and it is a wonderful archival format. People do not like to use, and when I went to the bank in the early (19)80s, we were micro filming right mortgage documents. So, and then that evolved to digitizing documents or the microfilm into searchable databases that are more accessible. So, it is an evolution.
IG: 38:18
An evolution. And so, you have been a consultant for how long? And just tell us about your consulting work.
LG: 38:29
I consulted for well over a decade. and I got clients. I was not a salesperson. I got clients who were in industries that were heavily regulated or and or heavily litigated. So, most of my clients were interstate, national or sometimes international companies in for example, insurance, pharmacy, financial services. And if they did not manage the information, they would just be keeping too much. That would cost them too much, in terms of litigation, could be researched for too long. So it was too much to handle, and they had to know what to keep, how long to keep it, when to get rid of it, when to track, all right, all of that, what was their reasons for keeping or reasons for getting rid of information which are both based on corporate needs and based on legislative needs.
IG: 39:39
So, what kind of where did you consult? What kind of companies or whom did you consult for? You know, what type of businesses?
LG: 39:51
Yeah, I am purposely not going to tell you the names [crosstalk] Okay, agreed. So, a lot of banks. A few some insurance companies, health care related information. And each of these industries has different rules and regulations, and from state to state, the rules are different with international clients, and I had clients, both in Canada and Europe. The rules, again, are different and what can be kept and what can be what information should be gotten rid of, and where it can be kept, change from place to place. So, we had a legal team that we worked with to help us come up with the recommendations back to these companies, and then also, I should say, on occasion, I did some pro bono work. I did a program for a local not for profit that did housing for low-income people, because I thought it was the right thing to do, and I had the knowledge and ability and time to do it
IG: 40:59
Wonderful.
LG: 41:00
So, there was a variety of kinds of clients. From fortune 25 to this company with fewer than 25 people on staff.
IG: 41:11
Right-right. So, would you say that you have been happy in your career?
LG: 41:20
By and large, I had liked my career. There was certainly ups and downs, but I found it. I found the work I did both challenging and reinforcing. And when I was consulting, I got to do a lot of traveling on somebody else's dime. [crosstalk]I love to travel. And so not only would I get to meet new people, but I get to see new places. And even when it was a city that one would not necessarily pick as a vacation spot, I had a client in Winnipeg, Canada, I had fun there. I met new people; I saw new things. They have a Chinese restaurant at their baseball stadium. It is called, who is on first, terrible [inaudible], but it was funny. It is a good story. So, and I got to meet some wonderful people in other places. So-so, yes, by and large, I liked my career a lot. Yeah.
IG: 42:21
Could we ask you how you met your wife? What [crosstalk] more personal?
LG: 42:29
More personal. So, I mentioned that I went to work for a bank, after my stint as a librarian, and I was hired to be there, I became their records management officer. I was hired
IG: 42:41
This was how many years ago?
LG: 42:44
I joined the bank, in 1982.
IG: 42:46
Okay.
LG: 42:49
And so, I was in charge of the records management program and dealing with all the different branches and corporate offices and corporate functions. And Roberta came in to be one of the trainers, and so we were both in fields or functions. We have to understand the operations that are going on right and communicate the information. And we started working together. She was doing a program for interns, basically coming into the bank and getting them trained. And one of the areas was for them to learn about what information records to keep and how to keep them. So, we had some-some meetings. Eventually started carpooling, because although the bank was in Brooklyn, our-our office were both in Brooklyn, we both lived in Queens at that point. So, we started car
IG: 43:40
Where in Queens?
LG: 43:42
Near St, John's University.
IG: 43:43
Oh, I know.
LG: 43:45
So, we started carpooling and-and we became friends, and then it developed into a relationship, and we have celebrated our 32nd anniversary.
IG: 43:58
That is wonderful.
LG: 43:59
And we have been married three times because when we first got married, we were married in a synagogue. Reformed Jewish movement said we could get married. We were the first gay couple congregants who got married at Temple, but our rabbi had to make a statement it was not a legal marriage because we were not allowed to be legally married. And then we went out to San Francisco. We got legally married. If you recall when the states were doing marriages here and there, several years after, then the third time, we got married in our current synagogue, and it is legal in New York, and now it is Supreme Court decision, legal everywhere. So that is all good. Anything else? [laughter]
IG: 44:46
[crosstalk] taking it in, because it is so interesting. So that must have been tremendously satisfying to have the Supreme Court decision allow you to-
LG: 44:58
The Supreme Court. at that point, made a decision and said, all Americans can have equal rights. You know, we, of course, had to draw up extra legal documentation. Even just a handful of years ago, we drove down to Florida, and as we were driving through the Carolinas, we were mindful that we had to have documentation in case, God forbid, one of us got sick, to say the other one is to say the other one has legal rights to say what our health care decision should be, because in Carolinas at that point, they were not in agreement. So, but I will tell you another story that I also thought was very satisfying when we got married in temple in 2004 my mother walked us down the aisle, and she was at that point, 91 she was, I think, the oldest congregant in temple at that point, and the potentially the longest-term congregant at that synagogue at that point. And it was such a statement to everybody, not only that the rabbis and the cantor were there for our wedding, but that my mother was-was literally walking us down the aisle and-and loving us both, as she had been at my brother's wedding, my sister's wedding. But this was in the same part of the synagogue where they had each been married. But it was a different thing, and it was a, to me, a huge statement. And it certainly had not always been that way. My mother was-was certainly very loving and supportive, and the three of us were wonderful friends, Roberta and my mom and I, but that turned evolution also so, so I am laughing because Roberta is doing some show and tell that was-was at our wedding, and that is my mom in the middle. And we decided to-to have these wonderful hand painted jackets that were just-just we are here. This is a wonderful statement, and it was a wonderful event, and um-
IG: 47:20
What do you think are the most important qualities to really weather an evolution in your lifetime? I mean patience, of course, but-
LG: 47:34
I have a sense of humor, yeah, and I also am tenacious, so you can just lie down. Do not worry. So-so although I can concurrently keep the long-term view in mind and the immediate details in mind, itis a skill I used in and honed in business. What is the end goal of where I want to be, but what are the steps I have to take to get there now, it is something that I do now in my volunteer work, approving expenses through the budget now, but also saying, “Where do we want to be in five years and 10 years?” So it is that kind of view, and I do think having patience and having a sense of humor are very good skills to help accomplish anything and to keep a perspective, because there are days that get very distressing with-with different news items that come along with different things we hear about. But progress, I think, is on a positive bend, a positive arc, that things are better for people. We were sitting at Temple last Friday, and one of the women we know came up to tell us that her daughter has a new girlfriend. And she was very happy to tell us that, and she was telling everybody sitting at our table a dozen or so people, but this is something that would not have happened a decade or two or three or more ago.
IG: 49:07
No, this is, I think, that this is very inspired advice for you know, current students, for example, listening or, you know, to these conversations. What advice would you give to, you know, I mean, students in the future will be very different. But you know, what are, what are some of the lights you have given you know, you have given advice right now of how to live through an evolution of change. What other, what other sort of, you know, career advice, for example, would you give a young person listening to this conversation?
LG: 49:51
One of the thoughts I had when you were speaking was, I am not sure that the students are different, per se. Uh, students are in school because they want to learn.
IG: 49:57
Yes.
LG: 49:58
And they want to they are learning because they want to end up going somewhere.
IG: 50:06
Yeah, they may have different-
LG: 50:06
Different technologies, you know. So where is, where is? I went to class with pen and ink to-to take notes. Very different technology. It is very-
IG: 50:08
But I think also the economy dictates the type of focus that a student has, because when I was going to school, I imagined that I could have a career in liberal arts. Now, students are much more sort of professional minded and so but that is another conversation.
LG: 50:38
Yeah, different career paths and different opportunities based on things we said, like feminism. When I was in school, most lawyers, most people going to law school, were men. Ditto medical school. Now the numbers have changed. Same with nursing school, most of them were women. Now there is good representation, very different numbers. I personally, I think having a big picture view of where you want to be going is important. Being willing to change that picture, is important. Being tenacious little bumps in the road, even if they seem big at this point, right, can generally be surmounted or walked around, gotten around one way or another. I do not feel old enough to be giving sage advice, but experience tells me that tenacity is really important. Wanting to keep going is really important. Not letting other people stop you is really important. Continuing to learn is really important, continuing to grow, continuing to do things, continuing to be open to new things, is important. And I think that is that is key tools in anybody's toolkit for a career or for evolving into a better citizen, a better person.
IG: 52:13
This has been very lovely and-and moving.
LG: 52:18
Thank you.
IG: 52:19
Any concluding remarks?
LG: 52:24
Well, you came. You came. You contacted me. You came from Binghamton. I have to tell you that I consider Harpur and Binghamton to have been a wildly important time of my life. And I was not a great student. I was not an A level student, when I was there, I was an okay. I was good student. I was an average student, I think. But what I learned was that I could, not only did I learn how to learn which is more important than little facts, I knew how to get information when I needed it, but I learned that I could manage with the best and the brightest. I learned that in an environment with phenomenally intelligent, witty, wonderful other people, I could hold my own, and that is a life skill that when I got to college I did not have, and it certainly has served me well, and so I think that is a good concluding remark.
IG: 53:28
That is wonderful. Thank you very much.
LG: 53:32
Thank you.
IG: 53:32
Thank you.
LG: 53:33
I have enjoyed this.
IG: 53:34
I have to-
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Lenore Ruth Greenberg
Subject
The topic of the resource
Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni
Contributor
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Greenberg, Lenore ; Gashurov, Irene
Format
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audio/mp3
Description
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After earning her degree at Binghamton, Lenore earned a master’s degree in library sciences from SUNY Albany. She worked in records management at numerous companies, including Iron Mountain LLC. She was also adjunct professor of records management at Nassau Community College in Garden City, NY. Partners since 1985, Ms. Greenberg and her wife Ms. Roberta Treacy were early champions of marriage equality. They met while working at Anchor Savings Bank in Brooklyn.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2018-10-18
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
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Lenore Greenberg.mp3
Date Modified
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2018-10-18
Is Part Of
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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53:35 minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f0e311fc930b98671ed9b4925b795b96.mp3
230a47a39051a06ef761d0e05b33eecc
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/658c9267362880e2e70d674158dd629b.mp3
dd5de00e982da20488acc88269486a77
Dublin Core
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Title
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Broome County Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Broome County -- History
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Description
An account of the resource
The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
Identifier
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2
Rights
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In copyright
Contributor
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
Coverage
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1977-1978
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56941">Interview with Leo J. Payne</a>
Duration
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33:47 minutes ; 7:19 minutes
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp3
Date of Digitization
2017-03-27
Material Type
Sound
Subject LCSH
Payne, Leo -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.)
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Transcription
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BROOME COUNTY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Interview with: Leo J. Payne
Interviewer: Dan O’Neil
Date of Interview: 10 February 1978
Dan: Mr. Payne, will you please tell me about your life and working experiences in the community starting with the early days, including the place of birth, education and family life with emphasis on your working experiences?
Mr. Payne: Well I, ah, of course was born in Towanda, Pennsylvania, ah, the family moved to Binghamton when I was two years old and ah, we, ah, my father went to work for Cyrus Clapp on ah Chenango Street–19 Chenango Street as a coachman and ah when I was five years old he ah went into trucking business for himself with a cart wagon and ah two horses and he moved to 25 Sherman Place. I was ah just as a small boy when ah he took me up to watch the ah ah the Courthouse burn down. We ah I saw that, that was quite a place and was up on quite a hill at that time. Now let’s see ah I ah I went to ah Carroll Street School until I was around 8 years old and then to ah Washington Street School–now the ah police station, where the Police Station used to be and ah when I was 12 years old, I went to to ah Central High School (Clock Chimes) and ah got my education there. After that I went to Riley's Business School that was oh can't think the name of that little street and ah from there I ah got a position as a Bookkeeper and Stenographer with ah Harry Doherty, who runs one of the first garages in Binghamton selling the Pierce Arrows and the White Steamers–not the Pierce Arrows, the Cadillacs and the Stanley Steamers. Ah business got bad and ah I was ah laid off. I went back to help my father then shovel coal–he used to have a contract with them and the Binghamton Cold Storage company. After about six months, a Professor Riley got me a position as a Bookkeeper and Stenographer at, ah, G.A. Glark Company in Sidney, N.Y. I stayed there until my–I worked too much inside–my Doctor told me I’d have to get outdoors or get a coffin–so the only thing I know what to do, I sold my house in Sidney and came down and bought out ah Rich ah Millard–he had that ah ah trucking business that people put him in business but he didn't want no business and so finally they ah put it up for sale but that was at the same time–so I came down and looked. He had two trucks & ah made a payment on them–I bought them. I went back to ah Sydney to get the ah ah additional loan so I could pay for it as my boss, my boss G.A. Clark's brother was President of the Sidney National Bank. Well I ah got along very good. After a couple years ah Mr. Clark came down, wanted to buy my trucks and ah have me come back to work and then my wife–I got married in between and ah at ah Cynthia Gifford, whose father was President of the ah People’s Trust Company in Sidney–he disowned her for you know ah marrying a colored man and ah we got, we got along very good. We came down to Binghamton and got married at the Centenary Church. I can remember at that time my people were living at 173 Henry Street in Binghamton. Had a, well, I got along very good by industrious working–I done a lot of work myself and I went around and worked up a very good business and finally connected with ah the Kroehler Manufacturing Company in 1930 and ah drawing furniture for them to different towns and ah I worked for them until around 1970, I think, in 1968 or 70 when I an gave ah a tractor and trailer one each to my two brothers, who were working for me and ah told them that they could go for their own as a gypsy as they had no rights–Interstate rights see, which I did have and I continued in a small way ah with a couple of moving vans doing moving jobs around ah near Binghamton as possible and in Binghamton and still doing it. Now that’s about all I ah had two children–one of my sons, Clark Payne, and we named him after my ah earlier boss in Sidney and ah he died here a short time ago and my daughter Doris is still with me and ah looking after me. I've had several heart attacks and ah two years ago I had two heart plants and ah, what you call it, pacemakers.
Dan: Pacemakers.
Mr. Payne: Put in and at the present time I'm feeling quite well.
Dan: That’s fine.
Mr. Payne: Now that’s about–
Dan: How old are you, Mr. Payne?
Mr. Payne: I’m 80–89 years old that 1st of February.
Dan: Great, great, great. Now what year did you buy the Richard Millard Company?
Mr. Payne: 1917.
Dan: 1917 and when did you get married–what year?
Mr. Payne: Oh dear, let’s see, 1913.
Dan: 1913
Mr. Payne: Well I was married twice.
Dan: I see.
Mr. Payne: I was married in 1910 the first time. My wife died of childbirth.
Dan: Oh.
Mr. Payne: And they had ah close the operation.
Dan: I see, did the baby die too?
Mr. Payne: They died before.
Dan: Oh.
Mr. Payne: So they had to force the operation but they didn’t have no hospitals there in Sidney and they just ah a couple of Doctors and ah they ah charged an operation with car batteries like–yeah they were car batteries some way but ah she only lived two days afterwards.
Dan: I see, I see.
Mr. Payne: But the second time, I was married in 1913.
Dan: In 1913 the second time and when did your wife die or is she still
livine?
Mr. Payne (to daughter Doris): Oh when did your Mother die, do you remember?
Doris: December 7th ‘69.
Dan: December 7th ‘69. Now you mentioned that you were kind of disowned by the family because ah of–
Mr. Payne: Of racial–
Dan: Of racial discrimination there, yeah. Now did you encounter any racial discrimination here, Mr Payne?
Mr. Payne: I, I never ah ah had ah any ah racial ah ah trouble here in Binghamton at all–never.
Dan: Never.
Mr. Payne: I went any place anybody else could go and was received.
Dan: Um hum.
Mr. Payne: ‘Cause I always tried to live a life that people would respect me. I joined the Masonic Lodge as soon as I could join and I ah was very ah enthusiastic about Masonic work and I finally ah ah rose up until now I am a Past Grand Master of the State Prince Hall affiliation of Masonic work.
Dan: What church do you belong to?
Mr. Payne: Trinity M.E. Zion.
Dan: OK, do you belong to any clubs there at all?
Mr. Payne: What’s that?
Dan: Do you belong to any clubs there at all?
Mr. Payne: Clubs, no I never joined anything else because I’ve always been very active in my Church work. For 15 years I was Chairman of the ah ah church Board. I ah put the church and an apartment next to it in the ah church’s ah lap without investing a cent. Free and clear–I had to use my head a little. Ah the ah State took over the parsonage for forty ah ah they only offered $450.00 for it.
Dan: Is that right?
Mr. Payne: Thats when they started clearing out for the playgrounds on ah Sherman Place.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: So, being very active in church work, they ah the ah church association here ah heard that I was looking for a parsonage–so the Chairman of the Church Board here called me up said, "Mr. Payne, I hear you're looking for a parsonage.” I said, "Yes, but I can't get ahit [sic] for what the ah anything for what they want to allow me for ah my old parsonage because anything I looked at was from 10 to 12 thousand, 12 hundred dollars.” So I says, he says, "Well how would you like to buy a church and a parsonage?” I says, “I’ll tell you, Reverend, I haven’t got five cents to invest. We are $1100.00 in the hole.” He says, "Well, could you have a couple of your board members meet me at the church on the corner of Lydia & Oak at 2 o'clock?" Yes sir, so I got ‘em, cause I was very active then and ah I looked the place over and ah he said, "Now ah IBM ah not IBM, GAF wants to ah buy the corner and ah put ah ah watering place there and ah Kradjian wants it to tear down and put ah ah development there, he said, but we rather have it for a church–Now it'll have to go up for a bid–could you make me a bid?" I said, "Well listen Rev, the best I could do would he $20,000.00.” He says, "Well I’ll take your bid in–how could you pay for it?” I said, "Cash." He says "What? I thought you was broke.” I am so I says, "I'll take care of it. I'll get in touch with you just within the next couple days.” So I called my head Minister up and I told him I says "You go see the Priest at ah St. Mary’s on ah Hawley and Fayette Street and tell him ‘cause he had asked me once before for a price on my church which was in very bad shape and he offered me $10,000.00 for it." Well I said 10 then 4, all right. I called Mrs. Titchner up–she was the development ah Superintendent here at that time–and I says, “Mrs. Titchner, I've got a proposition–it’s only good for a week. I've got to have at least $8,000.00 for the parsonage." [She says,] “Oh, Mr. Payne, I could never get that much.” I said, "Well I'm going to tell you what I've got in mind. I said I have ah offered the Church to the ah St. Mary’s ah Catholic Church for $15,000.00. I've given them a week’s, ah, option, I said, otherwise I'm gonna rebuild it" and ah (Clock chimes) she said, "Well I'm going to tell you what I'll do, Mr. Payne. I, I, I appreciate what you're doing, I'll call the State and see what I can do for you. I'll tell them the situation.” About three days afterwards, she called back and said, "OK, you can have the $8,000.00"--so I got that $8,000.00. The, the Priest saw my Minister and told him he’d take it, so I got $15,000.00–so I got $23,000.00, see, without a dime invested no place and ah I don't know, it was transacted through ah the First City National Bank and I met there with them. Ah the President of the Bank at that time said, "I don't know I ah Mr. Payne, you' re marvelous, I ah wish we had a Chairman that could work it like you worked it." (Laughter) So I took the $20,000.00 ah ah to them to for the church, I mean to pay for it–I had $3000.00 left, I paid the $1100.00 off that ah we owed and ah cause the ceiling was falling down and ah I had that fixed and that’s what I owed and then I took a couple thousand dollars they ah they ah–the furnace was bad so I put a new furnace in or used one that was in very good shape I bought from Fred Kennedy–at that time he was in the ah ah used building ah business and ah used the rest of the money for decorating the inside and what we could on the outside painting he says and they didn't cost them a dime. (Laughter)
Dan: Ah, now what you said, you went to Central High School–did you graduate from ah Central High School?
Mr. Payne: I ah ah quit ah ah in the ah eleventh grade to go to ah cause my family was in a little bad shape to go to they had enough money to send me to Riley's Business College and so I, I didn't quite finish ah for that and went to Riley's Business College. Riley's son and I had been friends ever since we was small kids and ah he told me I've ah had enough education for what he can give me so I don't need no more and he'll see that I get a break cause there was a lot of prejudices you know at that time in Binghamton.
Dan: Lot of what, lot of what?
Mr. Payne: Prejudices.
Dan: Oh, prejudices.
Mr. Payne: Yeah, I can remember that ah Ralph Hackett was in charge of ah the ah G.F. Pavilion and ah he ah I don't know, I wanted to raise money for the Lodge, see if we could buy a place eventually, so I started ah ah giving some dances around and I went down to see Ralph cause we had been friends ah otherwise and ah I asked him if we could rent it. He says, "Oh, this is strictly ah ah company ah company place of amusement and it’s not for rent to anybody.” I says, “Well you tell ah George F. that I want it at least twice a year–once in the spring and once in the fall for a Masonic dance and I want to improve the colored people in Binghamton as much as possible," and ah so anyhow ah he said to tell Ralph to let me have it once or twice a year– once in the spring and once in the fall, so Ralph and I got to be quite friends. So they was ah bringing name bands here for their dances and ah so ah–oh, I'm trying to think of his name now, oh he was a good friend of mine. He just died. Oh colored ah band Leader–tops–what was his name? Oh dear, he was a composer as well as ah ah–
Dan: Wouldn’t be Garner there, would it?
Mr. Payne: What?
Dan: Would it be Garner, Garner?
Mr. Payne: No–Duke Ellington.
Dan: Duke Ellington.
Mr. Payne: Yeah, he came here. They wouldn't let him, they had 20 people. They wouldn't let his ah ah his group stay overnight in any hotel here.
Dan: What year was this?
Mr. Payne: Oh God, I don't quite remember the year, but anyhow, let’s see, Ralph called me up and wanted to know if I could find places for them to stay overnight among my friends because you know I you know because I was in top shape and had very good friends. I finally got 'em enough to room so I went back down–he come here on a bus with his band and ah I told him what I had done. He says, "Well listen, ah ah Mr. Payne, I'm I’m very thankful for what vou've done, but these white people in Binghamton do so and so, which I can't ever repeat.”
Dan: In other words, in other words, there was discrimination.
Mr. Payne: "From now on I'm going to play this engagement and I'm leaving afterwards and they'll get on their knees to get me back here again and they'll do it too.” And they really did and finally ah after many years they got him to come back.
Dan: You know the Ku Klux Klan was very active at one time here in this city, wasn't it?
Mr. Payne: All right - I had that, at that time when the Ku Klux Klan was active here in Binghamton, had a Convention here, I can't remember the date. It was in the 20s. Ah I was, ah, backed on Centenary Street with my truck, loading some furniture, and it blocked off the street and ah a guy come by with a pickup truck and wanted me to move my truck out of the street londside. Well I told him I couldn't do it because we was getting ready to put a piano in and ah he'd have to wait. Well I ain't waiting but he did ah went up on the sidewalk on the other side and he clipped the front of ah my truck. So I jumped out there boy and I let him have one. So he says, "We got an organization going to take care of you." I says, “Oh you have, well I've got an organization that says you can’t." I was very proud of proud to belong–I didn't belong of of to be a friend of the Mafia, that was here. That was ah at that time I had ah a associate business of welding on Collier Street, which was known at that time as Automobile Row and ah this one particular friend there was a liquor ah ah ah bar room on each side of where I was ah ah I had my welding shop and ah I this is where I met this one of the heads of the Mafia, who became a very good friend of mine. I told him about what this guy said ‘cause I know they was quite strong from talking with them before because there was a lot of Italian people down around that way, see. He says, ''All right, they're having ah ah big time here next year, Ku Klux Klan, I'm going with you and we're going up and see that parade and I want to tell them something anyhow." So we went up and stood on the corner of Chenango and Henry. All right, this ah parade come down and this big shot stopped right in front of us–so right away quick my pal says, "Listen you so and so, this is my pal Leo Payne, I heard that you was ah looking for him and here he is. If you touch one hair of his head, I blow your head off." And then he told me if I, I wanted him at that time, anybody put out of the way, for $125 .00 I could have it done and nobody would be the wiser who done it.
Dan: Now you ah did you encounter any other prejudices as far as the white people in the community?
Mr. Payne: Never had any trouble at all.
Dan: No, no trouble at all. You're an old established family here, Mr. Payne.
Mr. Payne: What?
Dan: You’re an old established family here–respected family..
Mr. Payne: Yes.
Dan: You are. Now you said your dad was in business in the piano moving business before you?
Mr. Payne: He was in the moving business.
Dan: Moving business.
Mr. Payne: Moved anything, cleaning out cellars and moving.
Dan: How long was he in business?
Mr. Payne: Oh dear, uh uh until he died.
Dan: Until he died–what year would that be approximately?
Mr. Payne: I think, let’s see, he's been dead about 16 years.
Dan: lb years.
Mr. Payne: Yeah, and my mother died right afterwards–the next year.
Dan: About 1961 then, huh?
Mr. Payne: Yes.
Dan: Uh huh, 62.
Mr. Payne: They're buried in ah Chenango Valley Cemetery. So when my wife
died, I bought five lots up there for my immediate family which I still own. Put a stone up there for both my wife and myself.
Dan: Now you worked from 1917, when you started in business, right up until 67–did you say 1967 - 68?
Mr. Payne: I quit work ah about ah oh about 4 years ago, myself that is, doing any labor.
Dan: Oh you did. Did you that soon, huh? Just 4 years ago.
Mr. Payne: Yes that’s all.
Dan: Oh.
Mr. Payne: I was good right up ‘til then.
Dan: Who's carrying on your business now, Mr. Payne?
Mr. Payne: Well I am.
Dan: Oh, are you?
Mr. Payne: Sure, I just answer the phone or have my daughter, if I can't hear–she answers for me.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: And I have a couple friends of mine that worked with me when I was ah ah driving myself years and years ago.
Dan: Now what was the pay scale when you started out down in back in 1917. How much were you making - how much were you making yourself back in 1917?
Mr. Payne: Ah, I was getting top pay $20.00.
nan: $20.00 a week?
Mr. Payne: Yeah.
Dan: That’s out of your business?
Mr. Payne: No, I ah ah that’s what I got up in Sidney.
Dan : Oh, in Sidney.
Mr. Payne: At the end.
Dan: I see, but when you got in business for yourself?
Mr. Payne: I just, whatever I made, I made and that’s it.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: And I improved my business as much as I could until finally I got tired and figured that I had enough. (Clock Chimes). I had a home up on South Washington Street which–when I, I got the first ah heart attack–everything was turned over to my daughter who has taken over since then.
Dan: Yeah, how long have you lived here, sir?
Mr. Payne: 4 years.
Dan: 4 years
Mr. Payne: About 4 years, maybe 5.
Dan : Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: It’s all paid for.
Dan: Now ah this Henry Doherty that you spoke of–how do you spell his last name?
Mr. Payne: D-O-H-E-R-T-Y..
Dan: Now you remember the Courthouse when it burned down?
Mr. Payne: Yes.
Dan: That was quite a few years ago, because that’s rebuilt.
Mr. Payne: I think around, ah, I was about 5 years old. 1904, I think.
Dan: 1904 is when it was built, I think, wasn't it or was it?
Mr. Payne: Well it was just ahead. I was only just around about 4 or 5 years old.
Dan: 4 or 5 years old.
Mr. Payne: Yeah, because I know my Father, ah, we were living on Sherman Place only just below there a little ways. I seen so many changes.
Dan: And you say you started out in the Cyrus Clapp–
Mr. Payne: Yes, working for Cyrus Clapp.
Dan: Did this, was the–you worked for Cyrus Clapp?
Mr. Payne: That’s right–he sold out where the Press Building is.
Dan: I see.
Mr. Payne: And that’s where I lived in right behind there in the carriage house when we first moved here.
Dan: Is that right?
Mr. Payne: Yes, upstairs over the carriage.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: Where they kept the horses.
Dan: You're 89 years old now, so it'd be 87 years ago that you lived in back.
Mr. Payne: That’s right.
Dan: Before the Press Building was built.
Mr. Payne: Oh yes, yeah, there was quite a knoll there, yes.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: Which has all been distributed, I mean taken away, you know. Tommy, I think it was Tommy lived next door–he was rich too. I remember Conklin used to live on the corner of Exchange and Hawley Street and that was up on a hill where the YMCA is now and us kids used to ah get barrel staves and ah make skis (Laughter) and ride down there in the wintertime.
Dan: So you were down in Sherman Place, ah, was where your business started or where you moved to–Sherman Place at one time.
Mr. Payne: When I come?
Dan: Yeah.
Mr. Payne: My father was living on Exchange Street at the time.
Dan: Yeah
Mr. Payne: And I come down and, ah, lived with him for a few months when I moved over on ah ah 35 DeRussey Street.
Dan: Is that where you started in business on DeRussey Street?
Mr. Payne: That’s right.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: 35–I lived upstairs over Sam Katz.
Dan: Uh huh, yeah, South Washington Street (to daughter) right right–I can remember when the DeRussey Street bridge went out.
Mr. Payne: Oh dear.
Dan: Uh huh. Well is there anything else you would like to add, Mr. Payne, before I–
Mr. Payne: Well truthfully I can't think of anything of importance.
Dan: You're a very successful business man. Very well respected in your community.
Mr. Payne: I have been until just the last couple of months.
Dan: Uh huh
Mr. Payne: I had very bad luck from vandals–poured some water in the crankcase of my truck and it swelted such, the motor, and I had to have a new one put in and ah it cost me $1635.00 to get another motor put in.
Dan: Gee.
Mr. Payne: And then I burned up my Cadillac.
Dan: Gee, everything comes at once.
Mr. Payne: Right out here in the yard.
Dan: Now when you first started your business, you got a loan from the Bank in Sidney–is that right?
Mr. Payne: That’s right.
Dan: And then you–how many trucks do you own now?
Mr. Payne: l've only got ah the one I'm keeping now–I'm using.
Dan: OK well, I certainly thank you very much, Mr. Payne–I'll play this back for you so you can hear how your own voice sounds.
Date of Interview
1978-02-10
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Dan O'Neil
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Leo J. Payne
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Leo J. Payne
Description
An account of the resource
Leo Payne speaks of his early childhood growing up in Binghamton and later working as a bookkeeper and stenographer. He owned his own trucking company in Binghamton in the early twentieth century. He discusses his inter-racial marriage and the death of his first wife in childbirth because there were no hospitals in Sidney, N.Y. where his wife had gone into labor. He was active in a Masonic Lodge and in his church, Trinity M.F. Zion, the latter for which he assisted in securing a new church building. He also discusses discrimination and discriminatory business practices in the area at the time, including an anecdote about Duke Ellington being refused a place to stay when he came to Binghamton to perform. He speaks about his experiences with the Ku Klux Klan and the Mafia in Binghamton. At the time of the interview, Payne was 89 years old and still running his trucking business.
Contributor
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Payne, Leo J. ; O'Neil, Dan
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1978-02-10
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Recording 76A ; Recording 76B
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-27
Is Part Of
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Broome County Oral History Project
Extent
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33:47 minutes; 7:19 minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/81335c7d2a6badfb36cf09bdaee27381.mp3
9a375623dc7d188412a6e0dfd130d28d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Broome County Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Broome County -- History
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Description
An account of the resource
The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
Identifier
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2
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In copyright
Contributor
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
Coverage
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1977-1978
Relation
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Brotzman, Leonard
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Wood, Wanda
Date of Interview
1978-01-05
Collection
Broome County Oral History Project
Date of Digitization
2016-03-27
Duration
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79:58 minutes
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55871">Interview with Leonard Brotzman</a>
Subject LCSH
Brotzman, Leonard -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Farmers -- Interviews; Cornell University; Broome County Grange (N.Y.); Bee Keeping; Canals; Extension Service; Farm Bureau; Farm Machinery; Dairy Farms; Apple Farms; Tobacco Farms
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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<p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Leonard Brotzman</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Wanda Wood</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 5 January 1978</span></p>
<br />
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: This is Wanda Wood, interviewing Leonard Brotzman of Brotzman Hill Road in the Town of Chenango. The date is the fifth of January, 1978. Mr. Brotzman, why don’t we start out with the beginning and—ah—can you tell me something about what life was like on the farm when you were a little boy?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, when I came here it was </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">all farms</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. You'd be amazed if you could see today the number of the farms there was o'er these hills—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace Brotzman [Leonard’s wife]: On Front Street, too. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: —and—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: It was all farms on Front Street.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Oh, well, she don't want two or three of us talkin’ at once. See, she has to transcribe this, and if you talk it balls it up.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: Well, I'll keep my jaw straight. (Laughter).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: No, no—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, if you want to say something—heh—hold up your finger, she says. (Laughter.) And in those days it was what we’d call “sustaining farming” now. The farmer's figures could be as near—live off from the farm as they could. So, because money was very scarce—ah—some farmers, especially the small dairies, didn't have enough for them to make a livin’ and so they kept chickens, and every farm that I can remember had an orchard, at least an orchard of </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">apples</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, and the big crop, outside of hay and grain to support their livestock, was potatoes. Nearly everyone with any size farm raised from three to ten acres of potatoes. And they drew them in to Binghamton with horses—drew them mostly in the fall, because after it got cold, you couldn't take them in or they'd freeze, and the </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">stores</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, they were mostly independent groceries. The chain stores hadn't come in as we know them today. The A&P was here, but </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">they</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> bought off the local farmers. It was before the days of trucks. And, also buckwheat was quite a crop. And o’er the hills they—I presume there was more farms was run by renters than they was by owners. And they'd raise some potatoes, some buckwheat, and a hog and some beans, and they'd have maybe a team and a cow or two. And they took—they took </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">off</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. They didn't put anything back. Then the farm got so poor it wouldn’t support them, why, they’d move on and another one would try. That's why we've got so many abandoned farms. And the families were </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">large</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, and the children would have to look for work elsewhere—and soon that—when we came here in 1906, Binghamton, the cigar factories was the big industry. And then the Endicott Johnson came, and they became gradually built up, and then when World War I came, why, they really expanded. Seems to me about 20,000 workers. And everyone rushed in there to work.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Do you remember much about the cigar industry?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: No I don’t. I know before my time they used to raise tobacco around here. Down Front Street, on what's now the Quinn place and Ruth Wolfe's—they were tobacco farms. They were a high narrow barn and they had boards on them, hinged so they could open it for ventilation, and o'er on what's 369 then—I don't know who owns the place now—the last I knew, it was Dr. Allerton’s. Hull’s owned it years ago, and they said they grew a lot of tobacco.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Where the big stone barn is?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Yeah.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: And the canal was right there,too, wasn't it? Right near by—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Yeah. And when I was a boy, quite a lot of old canallers left. We used to like to get them telling canal stories. In fact, Grace is a descendant of the canallers. Her grandparents were on the canal.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, maybe we can get her to talk about that?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: She didn't hear you—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: I don’t know much about it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Don’t remember your grandparents?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: All I know is it was the last end of the canallin’ when my grandfather was steerage and my grandmother was cook.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: What were their names?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: What? Ah, Palmer.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh—yeah. Connected with the—the family there—the Thomas family. Weren't they relatives of the Thomas family down on Chenango Bridge Road?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: I don't know.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, that's—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: They might have been. Or, ah—unless she means the Palmers that used to live here, maybe.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: No—ah—it's a—well, that's another story. But she was a cook on the canal?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: Yeah, my grandmother was.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: And your grandfather?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: She was an Ackerman before she was married.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Do you remember any stories they told you about it?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: No. All I know is every time the Port Crane men and the Chenango Forks men met, they had a fight.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: (Laughter.) Well, what—one question was, “What was the amusement?” That was amusement to the canallers. This isn’t being recorded, is it?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh yes.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, this Palmer that </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">you</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> speak of married John Thomas’s sister, was raised right here. He lived here when we come on the hill. That was Charley, and I understand they were distant relatives of Grace's folks.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: Well, my grandfather and their grandfather was </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">cousins</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, I guess. Something like that.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, I wish some of those canallers were still around.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: There was one, Dick Shaw. When they put the hard road in between the corners—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: They was hard people. I mean they were real fighters, some of them.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: I guess all of 'em in the old days were.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: Tough, they’s tough.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Dick was an old canaller, and Stento put this piece of hard road in on Front Street, and Dick drove team for someone and he boarded with a Mrs. Webb—she kept three or four cows, and then he stayed there and done her chores until he died. And he used to tell us great stories about the canal.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: I'm sorry he's gone, aren't you? Well, where were we then?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: We'd got up to where people went to town to work. And that was one thing—that I think changed the face of farming. Well, when I was a boy, it was my father and brother and I at home, and except in haying and such things, we wasn't all needed. And when we was out of school and I worked at whatever I could find, I worked for other farmers. I worked in the ice-houses up to the 'Forks on the railroad. I worked on the road and I worked in the sawmills. And all of us boys done that. We worked at whatever we could get to do. And as the hill farms got poorer, why, it was a poorer living, and then people—they'd see that others in other occupations was making more money—had an easier time—so they drifted away to the cities. And then they has modern machinery come in. One man could do more, why, they begin to buy up the smaller farms. Maybe one man would get four or five of them and work them with the machinery, where it’d give employment to a lot of people before. And another thing that changed farming, I presume, there was as much land used to grow horse feed as there was to feed the people. Well, when the horses was gone, why, there was no market for oats and hay, and that was another thing that caused farming to change. And it gradually went into this trend for bigger farms on the better soils.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: But you stuck right here, didn't you?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: What?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: You stuck right here?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Yeah. (Laughs.) In those days you took what come along. I dropped out of high school in my fourth year. I had eye trouble. I was going back. Wages got up to three dollars a day—what would I need of an education when I could make all that money like that? (Chuckles.)</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Three dollars a day, oh my.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, I got a Grange scholarship to Cornell one winter for a short course, and when I came back, this farm, fellow that owned it died. His father was over on the “hill”—the State grabbed it and sold it at auction. And my father bid it off and took part of it and I bought the rest.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: How many acres?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, at that time I think—think I had a hundred and nineteen. I’ve bought land since then—got more land, and I’ve sold it and I'm still stuck here. But I won’t be if I ever find a customer with any money. There’s no use having a farm you can’t work yourself, and the house is too big for us. We’d like to sell out here and get a small house and lot, kind of near civilization.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, how—how have your crops changed over the years? Have there been a lot of changes there, except for the things you've said? You—you've always been a dairy farmer?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, when I was at home, my people were market gardeners. They came from Pennsylvania with the idea of raising a truck for the Binghamton market. And they had to cut the cloth according to what they could. They bought here on the hills. Land was cheaper. And the trouble up </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">here</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> was, we was about a month later than they was down on the river. By the time our produce got on the market, why, the other price for early stuff was gone. And I remember when from Chenango Bridge—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">[Interruption while a neighbor comes to call.]</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Can you remember where we left off?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">No.</span></i></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Doesn't matter. Well, I wonder if you could tell us something about the Grange? I know you’ve been connected with it for many years, haven't you?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, to get back to the beginning, the Grange—after the Civil War the farmers were in pretty bad shape, and the Commissioner of Agriculture sent a man by the name of Albert Kelly to the South to look the situation o'er. Well, he was a Mason. He got the idea that the farmers ought to have an organization like the Masons, so he went ahead and organized one. And the first Grange, Number One in the United States, was organized at Fredonia in 1868. I think it's still going, for everything I know of. And o’er the years there was a good many Granges been organized and disbanded, and then there will be others organized. I presume in Broome County, let’s see, I think the first Grange here was at Kirkwood in 1874. And I think Binghamton was organized a few years after that, and then that disbanded and reorganized in 1906. Well, the first I knew about the Granges, the big drawing card was that they got feed and groceries at a discount, and some places there were Grange stores. Well, then after GLF was organized, they kinda dropped the feed business and went out of the merchandise business. It was more a social organ.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Was it sort of a cooperative venture, you mean, when they had the stores?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: As I understand it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, there was quite a bit of social life combined with that, wasn't there?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Yes. It was really—I think—a poor man's organization. It always seemed to flourish best in—ah—Depression times. But it was a farmer's organization, and I think the big trouble with the farm—the Grange in Broome County—is there isn't many farmers left. And I don't know. Us old ones are, ah, passing on, and there's so many other things that the young people don't seem to be interested. One thing, the centralized schools have so much on and then people would rather stay at home and watch television than to go out. I understand that in the states where they're farther away from the big cities the Grange is doing better ‘n it is in the more populous areas. Although Binghamton Grange, I think, is doing good. Sanitaria Springs. A boy from Binghamton Grange—they have a contest, and and one of them was in music. I think he plays the piano, and he must’ve won—been the winner in Broome County and at the State contest, and he went to National Grange down in the Carolinas and won. I think his name is Bob Hall from Port Crane. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Was this a scholarship thing, or—?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: No. Not that.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh, just a contest.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Ayuh. I don't know, there’s a lot of prizes for the winners, what he got. And Missie—what'd Missie Acroni win that time? Do you remember, Grace? That was national, wasn’t it?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: Well, yes, sure it—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Her Afri—how d’you pronounce it? Something—African or something they knit?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: Ayuh.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: And I think she got a thousand dollars and her Grange, she’s a member of Sherwood Valley, got five hundred and—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Do you mean “Afghan”?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Yeah.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's pretty good.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, I’ve heard a lot say that the Grange was the greatest force for good next to the Church. Probably everybody wouldn't agree… Well, here’s something about farm machinery. Well, only the most prosperous farmers in those days—the bigger farmers might have a reaper and binder, and then there was what they called the drop reaper. It cut the grain and deposited it in a bundle on the ground, but couldn't tie it. But the small farmers used the old-fashioned cradle, and then we raked it up with a hand rake and tied it up in a bundle. And believe me, in those days there wasn't a spear of grain or hay wasted. They waste more today on the big farms than we used to </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">have</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. And then the tractors begin to come in. About the first ones was the old Fordson. An’ I never see a thing I hated like them. You could crank your head off and still they wouldn’t start unless they felt like it. But they were used in those days mainly as a belt power. The tractors didn't really get out in the fields ’til they got them with rubber tires. An’ the way we sprayed, we were about the first ones around to spray an orchard. We had a force pump in a barrel with a rubber hose and a nozzle. One of us pumped and the other one sprayed.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Was that horse-powered?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: It was </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">man</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">-powered. We drawed it with horses. And we’d spray the apples once or twice. Get nice apples. But now they spray continually, and—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: That was on your father's farm, right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Ayup. And there was some equipment here or orchard </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">here</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> when I got the farm. I sprayed that and I bought an orchard on the adjoining farm, but they're all pretty well gone. And we probably set a couple hundred new trees, and the deer killed every one of them. We raise them and then the State sells them to hunters. There was a neighbor, Mose Hatch, was raised in a log cabin. When I was a boy, he'd tell me how his father killed the last deer fifty years before that. Then in 1920 there was a pair up here—people come for miles to see them. Well, I wish that one that Old Man Hatch killed, it had been the last one. I think any farmer will—about, will agree with me on that.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: They say there are more now than there ever were in this country.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Ayuh, and I think it's because there's so much abandoned land grew up to second growth. Up in the Adirondacks where they used to go to hunt, why, it’s all big timber, nothing for them to eat. And we stored the apples in the cellar, mostly in barrels and crates. You could keep bees. I never did. My brother was a great hand for bees. He didn't care any more about bees stinging him than a fly lighting on him. A mosquito buzzing'd drive him crazy.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, he probably had to have them for the apples, didn't he?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, yes—and we kept 'em. When he was a boy he'd worked where they kept hundreds of colonies. I always thought I'd like to keep bees, but they didn't like me. They say they'll sting anybody that's afraid of them, and they sure knew I was afraid of 'em. But—and that's another thing that's changed—in those days, we got white clover and buckwheat honey. Well, 'bout all you get now is a mixture, mostly of weeds. Back when there was all these cattle o'er these hills—ah—pastures were chewed right down an’ come in to white clover. And everyone raised buckwheat. But we'd plow 'er and put in to potatoes—they winter. I remember when I paid $4.50 school tax on this farm. This year it was o'er six hundred. But the teacher got—I remember six or seven dollars a week, an’ was glad to get a school at </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">that</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Where'd you go to school?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, there was a district school right at the foot of the hill. It’s a house now.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh, yes—I remember that—yes.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: And then Chenango Forks was what they called the union school—it was three-year high school—and Grace and I both went there, and then she went to Greene for the last year and graduated. And I started at Whitney Point. But as they say, I “quituated” instead of graduating.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: How'd you go to school? Did you have to board up there?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, I boarded in the winter and the rest of the time I walked to Chenango Forks—went up on the nine o'clock train. And then they came back on the—what they called the “freight and accommodation”—old freight train, a passenger car on it. And that came alone, down anytime it felt like it, sometimes eight or nine o'clock at night. And this was a mud road then, down Front Street and up the hill, and we didn't even have a flashlight in them days. And boy, I was late at home until I sure was a man. And then I got a Grange scholarship and went to Cornell one winter—only vacation I ever </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">had</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. And that was the last year they gave scholarships. Then they started what they called the revolving scholarship fund. They established the fund and would lend it to the students. And I think they're still doing it. Well—the last complaint I heard was they'd only lend so many hundred to each student a year. And the way expenses went up, they had to look for </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">more</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> money. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: What did you study that—when you went to Cornell? What were your subjects then?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, we all, as I remember, we had to take a course in chemistry and soils, and one or two other basic things. And then I went in more for fruit growing and poultry raising, and took a course in forestry which was, I think, was the most interesting of any I took. And then I came home and bought this farm and this was more adapted to—in cattle than fruit growing.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: So you—did you go into the poultry business too, or—?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, we used to keep a few hundred. But now it's all specialization. It's all poultry or all dairy, or something of the kind, and mainly because it's, probably one of the biggest things was, the farmers can't afford to hire help to compete with industry. 'Cause of minimum wage laws. So they, they've mechanized. One man produces as much as a </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">lot</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> did in the old days, doing it the way we used to. And about </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">milk</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">—there were all these small dairies. They had a half a dozen or more put together and buy a wagon and put a rack on it. Milk went to Binghamton. One man'd take it one day and one the next, and then they'd go it around again. We done that for years. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: You mean it was peddled in Binghamton that way?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: No, we took it to the milk companies.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh—Crowley's—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: We'd draw it from eight to ten dairies on one load. They were all small dairies. And then when they got trucks, why, they went to hiring a truckman to take it in. Today—the can—I don't know of a place that buys canned milk anymore. It's all bulk tanks. And that put a good many small farmers outta business, because on the backroads the bulk truck won't go in unless they produce enough milk to pay 'em for their trouble. There we used to—well, take our canned milk to the main road for them to pick it up. And I don't know whether there's anyone in Binghamton taking milk in for the Crowley’s—whether their bulk tanks empty in Binghamton or not. There's a bulk tank, goes up through here every morning—or I see it every day or two. I don't know as it's every day. Picks up Haskell's, and then it goes up to Bob Walker's, and farther up's George Perry's. I think his goes to the Lea [Dairy Lea] and Eddy Smith go to Crowley's. Now there's four dairies where there used to be twenty-five or thirty. Probably as many cows in the four as there was in all of 'em.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, do you think it's better or worse?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well—(Laughs)—I kinda think I like the old way best, but I know that it wouldn't be very practical, the way conditions are today.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Especially for the wages, right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: But I </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">will</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> say that those small farmers, the ones that owned their farms, the government didn't have a mortgage on them for more'n they was worth. Some of my </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">friends</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> hear that remark, they'll grate their teeth. (Laughter.) We didn't have much in those days, but what we had was ours. One question in here about apple varieties—do we want to go into—?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh yes, I'd love to pick up that—do you remember?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: On the place where I was born, they were—the fences were stone walls. There was apple trees all around it—I think the biggest apple trees I ever seen, and was as nice apples. We never heard of spraying. We—ah—gathered what we wanted, and the rest fell off and laid there. And some of the bigger orchards a little later, the buyers come in and buy them and hire a gang to pack 'em in barrels and send them somewhere, to cities. And then we got all kinds of insects and diseases, and they had to spray.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Do you remember some of the names of those old varieties that you can't find anymore?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, back in the old days, those old varieties were seedlings—came up themselves and happened to be a good apple, then somebody discovered them and went to propagating them. Today, most of the new varieties are a manmade variety. They cross two or three varieties with—ah—to get the kind of apple they want. O'er to Geneva, they have an orchard with a thousand varieties they use for show and in this business, creating new apples. The old-fashioned apples—I can remember the Yellow Transparent come first and the Red Astrakan, then there was Sweet and Sour Harvest—they're not too well known around here—and Tompkins County King. They were an awful good apple. I don't know where they let 'em slip, but nobody has 'em. One time the Baldwin, there was more of them raised than anything else. And the Northern Spy for years was a main apple. Then there was the Rhode Island and the Northwestern Greenings—they were more cooking apples—and the Roxbury Russet, that used to keep 'til the next summer. And I don't know of where there's hardly a tree or any of them anymore, except the Northern Spy, and they're used more for processing. And we had the Pound Sweet and the Talman Sweet and the Rambo and the Hubbardson Nonesuch. Lord Nelson, the Spitzenburg, Jonathan, Grime's Golden. I think quite a lot of those varieties came from England and Europe.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: The names sound that way.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: And they, ah—the apple, I understand, is a native of the Near East. They were </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">brought</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> to this country. But today—why, the statistics show Red Delicious—there's more of them raised. But in the stores everybody wants McIntosh. They know the name—and I—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: That's about the only two names you hear anymore.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: And I've seen a lot of things sold for McIntosh that didn't even faintly resemble 'em. I was reading the other day, a list of apples that they've developed o'er to Geneva. Some of them I don't know and never seen. But one of the first ones they developed was the Cortland. That's a cross between the—ah—I think the McIntosh an’ the Ben Davis. Cortland's a wonderful apple. An’ the Ben Davis—(Laughter)—oh boy. I'd as soon eat a chip any day. (Chuckles.) But at one time when I was a boy they set out a lot of them. That was the days before refrigeration, and they would </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">keep</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> to send across the ocean.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: (Laughs.) I can imagine so.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: They was too poor to rot!</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Did you ever cook them, Mrs.—ah—Brotzman?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: What—the Ben Davis? Yeah, I cooked 'em.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: How did </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">you</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> do it?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: I think we—I think we've even baked them, didn't we, Leonard?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Seems though.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: That's the only way I've ever heard that you could get 'em soft, was to bake them.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: We used to use them when we was short of other apples.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: My mother—sometimes the frost would get the other apples and we had just the Ben Davis. We used 'em. There isn't a Ben Davis tree left, is there?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Why, up on that Hatch orchard there's one that had a few left—last year. And we had a white apple. And the Stood orchard was set for Spitzenburg, but they turned out to be this white apple with the red cheek—I think they called 'em the Belmont—and we sold hundreds of bushels of those. Today, you couldn't get people to look at 'em. But </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">fruit</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> is somethin’ that's particular about the ground. </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">This</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> place is quite clay-ey, and apples don't do good in that. And also the west wind hits in here. I never had too much luck with cane berries. I think because the wind's so cold. Across the road where it's sheltered and in shale soil, fruit done wonders and we raised </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">acres</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> of berries. We used to pick berries—be five or six of us every day, and my brother drawed them to Binghamton with the horses.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: How did he sell them? House to house?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: No. mostly to stores. We never </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">did</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> do too much retail business—took too much time. But we did used to have customers in the fall of the year. They'd put in potatoes an’ apples an’ onions an’ everything like that. They'd last all winter. Where if you'd unload a whole load, why, it paid. But our—most of our customers would be what was called independent grocers. We'd supplied them wholesale an’ then they'd retail 'em. And then—I think the first chain store in Binghamton, the American store came in Washington Street. Potatoes, I know, was $1.75 an’ they brought 'em in on trucks from somewhere. They'd evidently bought 'em cheaper—dollar and a quarter. And that pretty well ended growing the many potatoes around here. Why, in the old days they used to car 'em. Load aft—carload after carload. Chenango Bridge. Whitney Point. You remember Mart Foote?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh—I do.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Why, Mart was a buyer for some company—potatoes and apples.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Is that right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: He used to go out in the lake country and buy a whole orchard of apples an’ hire men to pick 'em and car them. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: I guess that about runs out of questions here.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, we've got a little time left.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well—asking about the Grange—and the Farm Bureau—that was organized here in 1911. The first one in the United States—the Chamber of Commerce and the Delaware-Lackawanna, and I forgot what else sponsored it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: The Farm Bureau, you mean?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, what was Farm Bureau then's the Extension Service now. It was the Farm Bureau for a good many years. John Baron was the first agent. He had Broome County, part of Susquehanna, and he had a horse and buggy. And then it was Ed Minns—he’d been a professor at Cornell, and they did get him a car. He'd bought a place down to Nimmonsburg—I think Carl St. John owned it later. And Baron—he went on. He was a professor at Cornell later, and then there was—Eastman—I think an Eastman. I've </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">known</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> every one of the Farm Bureau men. I was a committeeman for about fifty years. We used to go out and solicit people to join. I think the dues at first were a dollar, and then they worked up—seems to me to five—and then they dropped back to three. And one thing we discovered—the people that could’ve benefited from it most was the ones it was the hardest to get to join. And I think that the Farm Bureau was—well, they brought what—the </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">new</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> things to the farmers. And the better farmers today are the ones that went along with them. And the others are—huh—like the buffalo and the passenger pigeon.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: (Laughs). That's a good comparison.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: And then they got the bright idea of calling that the Extension Service and organizing the Farm Bureau, because it was being supported by public money and there'd be bills come up that they wanted to work for, and they couldn't </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">do</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> that as long as they was supported by public money. So—they called that part of it “Extension Service” and then they organized the Farm Bureau, which could not receive any public money. Although they work for different things. I've always been with the Extension. I belonged to the Farm Bureau for a few years, but when I sold the dairy I dropped out.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: So you have no dairy now?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, I've got one cow and four or five heavy young cattle. The neighbor's got beef cattle here and does the haying.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well—that's good.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: I was going to send the old cow to the auction on a Monday, but she freshened on </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Friday</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. She wasn't in very good shape to send to the auction, so I've still got her. I tied the calf 'side of her and told him to go </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">to</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> it, but he's lazy—he makes me help.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, you're lucky to have a—</span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">one</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> cow, even.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well—one cow ties you down as tight as that whole barnful.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Does it?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: And that's really why I was getting rid of her, too, but—if I can't be here to milk her—Grace’s got past it, and where do you get someone to milk her?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well—if you didn't </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">gad</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> so much, you wouldn't have to </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">worry</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> about those problems.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: It ain’t the gadding that worries </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">me</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, it's trips to the hospital.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, I want to thank you. Have you got anything else you want to put on here?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: No. I've probably put on too much now.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: How about it, Mrs. Brotzman?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace: I haven't got anything.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, I guess we're kinda talked out, aren’t we? But I do thank you, and I thank you for your hospitality. It's been a pleasure.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leonard: Well, it's been a pleasure to talk with you.</span></p>
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Interview with Leonard Brotzman
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Brotzman, Leonard -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Farmers -- Interviews; Cornell University; Broome County Grange (N.Y.); Bee Keeping; Canals; Extension Service; Farm Bureau; Farm Machinery; Dairy Farms; Apple Farms; Tobacco Farms
Description
An account of the resource
Leonard Brotzman talks about sustenance farming through the years of his life, as well as, his ideas on farming practices and the sale and transportation of produce. He also discusses the canals and the Broome County Grange, his education, scholarships and experiences at Cornell University.
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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Recording 7
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Brotzman, Leonard ; Brotzman, Grace ; Wood, Wanda
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1978-01-05
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2016-03-27
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Broome County Oral History Project
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79:58 minutes
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6e6f33bdc43f2cbab131a77825d92ce9.mp3
f84ed1b58756b452d14a5699d7b33ff9
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Broome County Oral History Project
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Broome County -- History
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Binghamton University Libraries
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The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
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2
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
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Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
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1977-1978
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Stewart, Leroy Elliott (Slam)
Interviewer
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O'Neil, Dan
Date of Interview
1978-04-26
Collection
Broome County Oral History Project
Date of Digitization
2016-03-27
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32:14 Minutes
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56033">Interview with Leroy Elliott (Slam) Stewart</a>
Subject LCSH
Stewart, Leroy Elliott (Slam) -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Englewood (N.J.); Boston Conservatory; Musicians -- Interviews; Goodman, Benny; Benny Goodman Sextet; Slam Stewart Trio; Garner, Earl; Tatum, Art; Gaillard, Slim; State University of New York at Binghamton; Yale University
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Leroy Elliott (Slam) Stewart
Interview by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 26 April 1978
Dan: Well Slam, would you give me the—your life and working experiences starting with your date and place of birth?
Slam: Well I was born, ah, born and raised in ah, Englewood, New Jersey, quite a few years ago—that goes back to 1914, and of course I, coming up, I went through at least got through High School and ah as far as ah my musical career, I may as well start out by saying that ah who, when I was about ah six years old seven years old, I started out playing the little violin—squeak box—and ah it lasted for a while until I ah got into my first year in High School and ah somehow I didn't care for too much for the little violin—I became interested in the ah big fiddle—the bull fiddle, which they happened to have in the school—in the music room at school and somehow I got around to the point of trying, trying this bass fiddle out and I had to have one of the ah violinists in the orchestra to show me how to even tune it—I didn't even have the ah, didn't have the ah knowledge of the big one so that's the way I started playing my ah bass fiddle—that's what started me ah in my bass fiddle car—well my career, you might say, playing music. After I got out of the High School I went to Boston Conservatory of Music—this was around 1934 and ah studied for a year or two in Boston. At the same time, I was getting quite a bit of experience playing to a couple of nightclubs in and around Boston and that was the beginning of ah, you might say ah my musical happenings. Of course while I was ah playing and working at music around Boston—I wouldn’t say that I wasn't, I hadn't really become a professional at that time until I ah left Boston a few years after I started up there and ah came back close to home around New York City, where I, I made my rounds ah getting into everything I could get into musically, that is ah jam sessions uptown and Harlem and what have you and ah I ah started working on ah 52nd Street. Of course before then—that came a little later 52nd Street—before then, I teamed up with ah a young man ah we ah called ourselves ah this other fella’s name was Slim, Slim Gaillard that is and of course I teamed up with Slim and ah we were trying to get a professional name for me—he'd already more or less had been a professional—so we were trying to get a name for me and ah that’s how I came upon the name of "Slam" ah playing with ah doin our act together "Slim and Slam" for me and so that was really the beginning of my ah professional ah career in, in music—playing the bass fiddle and during this time I, I had developed a style of playing the bass ah in a way that ah no other bass player really in the jazz field had played it. Matter of fact I, I studied ah a technique of humming my hot jazz solos and humming along with ah what I played an octave higher than what I was playing to make this ah, you might say, a unique ah jazz style of playing the bass and it became quite popular. So I kept that in and I’M still, still trying to do it today and enhance upon it of course. I'm always trying to learn something new and ah like I said that was the beginning of my professional career in ah music. After I was with Slim, Slim and I lasted about oh maybe two or three years—something like that. Then ah our team broke up because he had to go into the Army and ah—
Dan: This was around the first World War: 1919, 1918?
Slam: That's right—no not quite that far back.
Dan: No let’s see, that would be 2nd World War.
Slam: The second one, yeah.
Dan: This goes back to ’41.
Slam: ’41 - right.
Dan: OK.
Slam: Of course Slim and I, we collaborated upon the, a huge, a great big, big hit record which was ah called, everybody I know everybody will remember it, "Flat Foot Floogie (with a Floy Floy)."
Dan: Ah that was a big hit.
Slam: That was our, our big hit.
Dan: Uh huh, in other words did you compose that yourself?
Slam: Well Slim and I collaborated upon this, this ah number.
Dan: The lyrics and the words?
Slam: Yes that's right.
Dan: Is that right—that was a big number—I can remember that myself.
Slam: That was really it for us.
Mrs. Stewart: They buried it in the time capsule at the World's Fair.
Dan: Is that right?
Slam: Buried in the time capsule—the World's Fair ah 1939.
Dan: Uh huh.
Slam: Yes, in New York so anyway after I broke up with ah—we broke up and I went my way. I ah, I played with ah a couple of groups—that's when I started ah more or less working on the famous ah 52nd Street ah I ah before I went on the street that is, I joined, ah, Art Tatum—the great blind pianist. I joined Art Tatum out in California and ah, we, ah, did quite a few things out on the coast and worked our way back to ah to New York City, that is 52nd Street where I played with ah Art Tatum—this on ah at a place called the “Three Deuces” and that was really ah the beginning of a wonderful career. I ah played there with Art Tatum until, ah, see, ah, Art Tatum became ah, ill one night—he couldn't make our sessions, ah, so I tried to make ends meet by ah—I had heard of a wonderful ah pianist down the street at another club and ah his name was Earl, Earl Garner.
Dan: Uh huh.
Slam: And ah I had been down to this club listening to Earl once in a while, he was workin’ about the same time on the Street—that's what we called 52nd Street, the street you know.
Dan: Uh huh.
Slam: And ah somehow, ah, I got an idea—this place the “Three Deuces” where, where I was working ah—it was left upon me really. The manager of the place asked me to see what I could do to replace ah Art Tatum—he couldn't make it and thought for a minute, why didn't I run down the Street and see Earl Garner and see if he can kind of help us out—so that's what I did and ah he ah, his boss, Earl's boss, he was working a place called the Torondelaose an his boss—I asked his boss and Earl, could Earl help me out to play a couple of sets or so with me in the “Three Deuces” while Art couldn't, couldn’t make it and it, it was so nice of his boss to let Earl do this, ah, Earl with—here's what happened—Earl would play his couple of sets in his place and run down to my place the “Three Deuces,” our place and fill in and took Art, Art Tatum's place with what we call eventually my trio and we had on guitar John Collins at the time and so that happened for ah ah few nights. Art wasn't still able to make it. As a matter of fact ah we found out that Art was becoming very seriously ill so he had to go back to California so that ah left it up to me to keep things going at the “Three Deuces” which eventually ah Earl Garner’s boss let him join me ah permanently, you know—it was awfully nice of him to ah to have him to do that, you know—so Earl became a permanent, ah, member of ah my trio.
Dan: And you called yourself what?
Slam: The "Slam Stewart Trio."
Dan: "Slam Stewart Trio."
Mrs. Stewart: And you took him into the Strand Theater too.
Slam: Yes and I ah I eventually we ah got ah hold of a drummer when made it a "Slam Stewart Quartet" and which my wife just said that ah we went, we played the ah quite a few theaters up and down the east coast especially the ah Strand Theater in New York City and that lasted for quite a while on and off ah let’s see around ’46.
Mrs. Stewart: ’45.
Slam: ’45 I got an offer from Benny Goodman, who was working down the street not too far from the ah “Three Deuces” on 6th Avenue at the ah theater which was, which was called ah “Seven Lively Arts” I believe it was and ah it was sort of a show that Benny and his sextet was doing at the theater. So I got a call from Benny if he asked me would I play the show with him, which I do it, which I did and ah it wasn't too hard on me because ah the show ah started at 9 o'clock, I think it went from 9 until approximately 10 to 10:30 and at the same time I went and did this show with ah Benny, Benny Goodman and at the same time I had to rush back to the “Three Deuces” to fulfill that ah gig there, you know—so that was the first time I had experience with ah Benny Goodman.
Dan: Uh huh.
Slam: And during that time of course, Earl Garner left me and ah went his way with his own group and ah I stayed with Benny Goodman and that lasted for a year or so.
Mrs. Stewart: Two years.
Slam: Yeah.
Mrs. Stewart: You forgot to tell him that in the early ’40s you made a lot of movies.
Slam: Oh yes I—
Mrs. Stewart: You did a Broadway show too.
Slam: I did a Broadway show with ah ah Lady Day, Billie Holliday and I also did I think another one—Broadway show, I forget the name of it but anyway I was—
Dan: Was this when you were with Earl Garner?
Slam: Ah—
Dan: Or was this "Slam Stewart Trio"?
Slam: Slam Stewart, ah, Trio.
Dan: Yes, with Earl Garner.
Slam: No, no I was in and out ah in other words it could have been when I was with Goodman.
Dan: Yeah.
Slam: But ah the one show that I did at the Strand Theater, I had Earl Garner with me then.
Dan: I see.
Slam: At that time but ah, ah when I went with ah Goodman I, that isn't all that I did, you know, I would ah do a little other things outside of playing ah ah Benny—I was recording, in fact I recorded quite a bit.
Dan: Umhm.
Slam: During the ’40s, I recorded on just about with everybody you can think of and I must have made ah, which included Benny Goodman Sextet, Lionel Hampton, Dizzy Gillespie—you name them, I—
Dan: (laughter)
Slam: I made so many recordings I must have made during the ’40s at least up to 200 or more 250 or more sides with ah different groups.
Dan: Uh huh—any gold records in there?
Slam: Any ah gold records?
Mrs. Stewart: Most of it was classics.
Slam: Ah most of them—not ah that one the for that I did with Slim—that was a gold record.
Dan: Uh huh.
Slam: “Flat Foot Floogie.”
Dan: Yeah.
Slam: And ah let’s see what others—I made so many recordings that I can't remember them.
Dan: Uh huh—sure.
Slam: You know it is kind of hard.
Dan: Where have you been in your travels, Slam?
Slam: Well I have, ah, I've been quite a few places in the world. I've been to Europe, ah, I've been to Australia—I've never been to Japan or China, but ah, most, ah, many places in Europe.
Dan: Umhm.
Slam: And I’ve been to ah not South America—what's the place—the island?
Mrs. Stewart: Puerto Rico.
Slam: Puerto Rico.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mrs. Stewart: Hawaii.
Slam: Hawaii—that’s right.
Dan: Now is this with a group, Slam?
Slam: Well ah, ah, I ah, I joined a group on, ah, most of the places.
Dan: I see, I see.
Slam: You know.
Dan: In other words you were a soloist and then you joined a group at each place that you went.
Slam: That's right, yes.
Mrs. Stewart: He's appeared about 20 times just since we've been in Binghamton.
Slam: Oh sure, yes.
Mrs. Stewart: And taking your own groups too.
Slam: Yeah, well the years have passed and ah, oh, I've been through quite a, quite a few things. Say, for instance, I’ve ah, been with, ah, Benny Goodman again, my second time around with him, and—
Dan: Were you with Duke Ellington at any time?
Slam: No, I've never been with him—I've sat in with him.
Dan: Cab Calloway?
Slam: Ah no, I've never—the only large band that I've had experience with is, ah, Benny Goodman's large band.
Dan: Yeah.
Slam: Which I recorded with, mostly.
Dan: Right.
Slam: But ah most of my experience with Benny Goodman ever was just with the, ah, small group.
Dan: Uh huh.
Slam: Sextet.
Mrs. Stewart: One of the movies you made was with Cab.
Slam: Yeah I made one movie with ah which Cab was in.
Mrs. Stewart: Fats Waller.
Slam: With Fats Waller.
Mrs. Stewart: You played the sax in that one.
Slam: Yeah.
Mrs. Stewart: But Cab's Band was in the movie—he made more than one movie though—this sounds like he made one—he made a lot of additional—still running too—see them on television.
Dan: Uh huh.
Slam: This one we’re talking about, ah, was called “Stormy Weather.”
Dan: Umhm.
Mrs. Stewart: <i>Hellzapoppin’</i>—you were in that.
Slam: <i>Hellzapoppin’</i>—I was in that. “Oh Boy What a Girl.”
Mrs. Stewart: “Red, White and Blue.”
Slam: What have you—oh geez.
Dan: Where were these movies made, were they made down in New York?
Slam: No, in Hollywood.
Dan: Hollywood, uh huh.
Slam: A long time has passed.
Dan: Well you’re still active, aren't you Slam?
Slam: Yes I am, ah, fairly active—not as much as I used to be of course. I have, ah, played with ah symphonies, say for instance with the, ah, Indianapolis Symphony, the Binghamton Symphony of course and Toronto Symphony and I played with the Lincoln String Quartet, ah.
Mrs. Stewart: Harpsichordist.
Slam: Harpsichordist.
Mrs. Stewart: Classical music.
Slam: Classical, yes.
Dan: Now when did you come to Binghamton, Slam?
Slam: I came to Binghamton about 10 years ago.
Dan: 10 years ago.
Slam: Yeah.
Dan: And for what reason?
Slam: Well on account of the young lady whom I'm married to.
Dan: Well that's about as good a reason as I can think of. (laughter)
Slam: Yes indeed and I find it has been my most happy experience in life. Has been wonderful and very good to me all the way around.
Dan: Yeah, well it's the—your life has been very rewarding—there’s a lot of memories and everything but you're on the go all the time.
Slam: Well yes like I say not as much as I used to I—
Dan: Not now but I mean in your prime you were pretty busy.
Slam: Oh yes, I had been very busy, which I didn't mind at all you know.
Dan: No, no, when you're younger why you can take it.
Slam: That's for sure.
Mrs. Stewart: Ah Marge Hinman was surprised—remember when you did the historic architecture—this house is in it.
Dan: This house is in it?
Mrs. Stewart: In the Broome County ah Historical Societies Architecture.
Dan : Oh it is.
Mrs. Stewart: Yeah and she said she was so shocked when she found out that Slam and I owned it.
Dan: Oh is that right. There’s another gentleman, I’m going to Friday to Windsor, another gentleman, his name is English and his house is in the—that same book.
Mrs. Stewart: Umhm.
Dan: That house was built in 1823 and it also served as an underground railroad station.
Slam: Oh yes.
Mrs. Stewart: This is 1870.
Dan: 1870, uh huh.
Mrs. Stewart: And it's all ours.
Dan: That’s wonderful.
Slam: It's all ours.
Dan: Well that’s great, that's great. So anyway you went to High School and you went to the Boston Conservatory of Music.
Slam: That's right.
Dan: And that’s where you took up the bass viol and, ah, specialized and from there on expanded.
Slam: Ah.
Dan: Have you been in England?
Slam: I've been in England, yes.
Dan: Have you played before the Queen of England?
Slam: No I—
Mrs. Stewart: Played at Royal Albert Hall though.
Slam: Royal Albert Hall there and she may have been there during one of our performances there.
Dan: Uh huh.
Slam: Oh I’ve been quite a few places, ah, Italy and Spain, Germany, Finland.
Mrs. Stewart: Sweden.
Slam: Yeah.
Dan: Now is this a tour that you took yourself Slam?
Slam: No I—
Dan: A tour or was that mapped out for you?
Slam: It was mapped out for us—in fact I was with Goodman on quite a few of them.
Dan: I see.
Slam: Ah tours when I played. I've been to France quite a few times on my own, ah I've done, ah, quite a bit of recording there in France, in fact I was, ah, part, I played part of, ah, background music for a picture or two that were made in, ah, France.
Dan: I see—now have you done any more composing at all?
Slam: Well not, ah really, no I haven't—I'm thinking very seriously about, ah, taking it a little more easier than I'm doing now and just do some ah some more composing—the Wife and I.
Dan: Yeah.
Slam: You know I think—
Mrs. Stewart: He has a published book though…
Slam: I have a book on, ah, bass.
Dan: Oh, you have published a book on bass?
Slam: <i>The Technique on Bass</i>.
Dan: Is that right—when was that published?
Slam: Oh that was published back in the ’40s.
Dan: 1940s, yeah. Are you a musician too, Mrs. Stewart?
Mrs. Stewart: Yes.
Slam: Yes she is.
Dan: That's wonderful.
Slam: Plays a wonderful, ah, piano.
Dan: Well that's great—you've got a lot in common.
Slam: We've done quite a few things together.
Dan: Uh huh.
Slam: Schools and what have you—in this area too.
Mrs. Stewart: I play as little as I can get away with, Dan.
Dan: (laughter)
Mrs. Stewart: I think maybe if you read his biography in <i>Who’s Who</i>—it might help you. <i>Who's Who in America</i>—I have it right here.
Dan: Ah he's been in <i>Who's Who in America</i>?
Mrs. Stewart: He is in it and now he's in the next edition—they just sent me a copy of it.
Slam: Well yes.
Dan: It must make you very proud, Slam.
Slam: Oh thank you.
Dan: Honest to God it's remarkable.
Mrs. Stewart: Well he's played major countries all over the world.
Dan: Blessed to have a community like this to have such famous men.
Slam: Ah it's wonderful.
Mrs. Stewart: He goes out and plays and he's been every country all over the world he's played and he'll come home and I’ll say “How”—you know there's nothing out there—it’s all here.
Slam: Yeah.
Dan: Were you in service at all, Slam?
Slam: No I didn’t make the, ah, service.
Dan: Uh huh—well you kept yourself busy, though.
Slam: Yes.
Dan: Now do you belong to any organizations or anything like that?
Slam: Well yes, ah, at the time, I belonged to the Sertoma organization here and outside of that ah—
Mrs. Stewart: You’re a member of Sts. Peter and Paul Russian Orthodox Church.
Slam: Yes.
Dan: Oh you are—Sts. Peter and Paul Russian Orthodox Church?
Slam: Yes.
Dan: Is that here in Binghamton?
Slam: In Endicott.
Dan: Oh, it's in Endicott.
Slam: Yes.
Dan: Yeah—one of our girls belongs to that same church.
Slam: Uh yeah.
Dan: Yeah—well is there anything else you would like to tell me, Slam, before I turn off this machine?
Mrs. Stewart: He has two fellowships—he has one from Newing here and one from—
Dan: I think he's being very shy about his accomplishments.
Mrs. Stewart: Yeah I always had—
Dan: Now he's got these fellowships from where?
Mrs. Stewart: He has from Newing College here at the University and he has one from the Yale University.
Dan: Yale?
Mrs. Stewart: Yeah, we just came back from Yale—he goes back all the time. We've just gotten back last Saturday in fact another beautiful session. He’s very involved in Yale University.
Dan: Uh huh, well that's great.
Mrs. Stewart: I saw him last week performing with the students and it was—
Dan: I suppose you get quite a few requests from the students over at the University to perform.
Slam: Oh yes, I have.
Mrs. Stewart: You know it's funny—the young students decided themselves, with no help, that they wanted to play their Prom this year.
Dan: Uh huh.
Slam: And he's going to Charleston to play this Filado Festival and that was the same date and about 3 days after they decided they could, I got a call from our University saying their students had decided the same thing. Yeah.
Dan: Well you can’t be two places at the same time.
Slam: That's right.
Mrs. Stewart: No he couldn't be at either one of them, which was sad, because he would have liked to have done this, you know—but he was really thrilled that the kids came up with the idea themselves.
Dan: Well I certainly appreciate this interview, Slam.
Slam: Oh that's all right. I wish I could remember some more things.
Dan: Well with all the places you've been, it's remarkable that you remember what you did.
Mrs. Stewart: Well he's probably been to Europe twenty times.
Slam: Oh sure.
Mrs. Stewart: Closest he's been to Binghamton to Europe.
Dan: Twenty times just since he's been here—that's in the last 10 years.
Mrs. Stewart: Yeah.
Dan: And that's not counting the number of times he's been to Europe.
Mrs. Stewart: Before.
Dan: Before.
Mrs. Stewart: Since he began going in the ’40s.
Slam: That's right, sure.
Dan: Well that's great. Well I’ll ah turn this off and play it back for you if you like, Slam.
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Title
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Interview with Leroy Elliott (Slam) Stewart
Subject
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Stewart, Leroy Elliott (Slam) -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Englewood (N.J.); Boston Conservatory; Musicians -- Interviews; Goodman, Benny; Benny Goodman Sextet; Slam Stewart Trio; Garner, Earl; Tatum, Art; Gaillard, Slim; State University of New York at Binghamton; Yale University
Description
An account of the resource
Leroy Elliott (Slam) Stewart, born in Englewood, NJ, describes his young life and education. He studied the bass violin in high school and after graduation attended the <a href="https://www.bostonconservatory.edu/">Boston Conservatory of Music</a>. He details his professional career, teaming up with <a href="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0301254/">Slim Gaillard</a>, <a href="http://www.npr.org/programs/jazzprofiles/archive/tatum.html">Art Tatum</a>, and later Earl Garner to become "the Slam Stewart Trio." He went on to join the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Goodman">Benny Goodman Sextet</a>, traveling all over the world, developing a distinct style of playing and eventually publishing a book, <em>The Techniques of Bass</em>. He speaks about his big-hit composition "Flat Foot Floogie," which received a gold record and was buried in a time capsule at the World's Fair in New York in 1939. He also describes his numerous recordings and his work in film. He mentions his fellowships with SUNY Binghamton and <a href="http://www.yale.edu%20">Yale University.</a>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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audio/mp3
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English
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Sound
Identifier
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Recording 58
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Stewart, Leroy Elliott (Slam) ; O'Neil, Dan
Date
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1978-04-26
Date Modified
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2016-03-27
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Broome County Oral History Project
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32:14 Minutes
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fafffebef941be65092d36a10f5b3196.mp3
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Oral Histories
Title
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2017-2018
Relation
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2018-03-16
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Leslie G. Ungerleider
Year of Graduation
1966
Biographical Text
Dr. Ungerleider is an experimental psychologist and neuroscientist, and Chief of the Laboratory of Brain and Cognition at the National Institute of Mental Health. Ungerleider has been elected to the National Academy of Sciences (2000), the American Academy of Arts and Sciences (2000), the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences (2001), and the Society of Experimental Psychologists. In 2009 she received the William James Fellow Award by the Association for Psychological Science in recognition of how her research advanced our understanding of brain function and its relevance to public health and also for her mentorship of young researchers.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institute of Mental Health; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the National Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area.
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Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institute of Mental Health; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the National Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area
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Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Leslie G. Ungerleider
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 16 March 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
LU: 00:02
My name is Leslie Ungerleider. I am being interviewed as part of a project of alumni from Binghamton at the time I attended, of course, it was called Harpur College and then while I was there, I was there between 1962 and 1966 and while I attended, it became State University of New York at Binghamton. So, I graduated as an alumni of SUNY at Binghamton, and I understand now it is Binghamton University, but I look back still fondly on my days at Harpur College.
IG: 01:01
Wonderful. Thank you so much. Where did you grow up?
LU: 01:05
I grew up in New York City, in Queens. I was born in Brooklyn. Grew up in Queens.
IG: 01:12
Where in Queens?
LU: 01:13
In Bayside New York. I attended Martin Van Buren High School.
IG: 01:26
One thing that I did not ask you, I am also I grew up in Queens in Whitestone, so just next door, what is your role currently? What is your position? We did not identify you.
LU: 01:41
I am a scientist. I am the chief of the Laboratory of Brain and Cognition, which is part of the National Institute of Mental Health, which is part of the National Institutes of Health here in Bethesda, Maryland.
IG: 02:02
Thank you. So, you grew up in Queens and you went to Martin Van Buren High School. What was the expectation for you about going college to college? Were your parents- did your parents go to college?
LU: 02:23
My father was a dentist. [coughs] Sorry excuse me. My mother did not. My mother graduated from high school and then was expected to go out and get a job and earn money to help her parents. So, she was a homemaker when I was growing up, but my father was a successful dentist. Both my parents grew up in the Depression.
IG: 02:59
And you are uh-
LU: 03:00
Both-both, my all of my grandparents emigrated from Eastern Europe.
IG: 03:09
Did you have siblings?
LU: 03:11
A younger brother and a younger sister. It was expected that we would all go to college, and we all did, and we all became professionals. My brother a lawyer and my sister, a therapist.
IG: 03:30
Why- what were your reasons for going to Harpur?
LU: 03:35
My reasons were that I was rejected at all the other schools I applied to, I was rejected at Cornell, and I was rejected at Rochester. And so, I had heard about, I had heard of Harpur. I heard it was a small liberal arts college. So, then I applied to Harpur and I applied to NYU. I got into both and decided to go to Harpur because I needed to get away from home.
IG: 04:13
I see. Also, did you get a Regents scholarship?
LU: 04:18
I did.
IG: 04:19
You did so it was probably close to free.
LU: 04:23
Correct.
IG: 04:28
So, what was the reputation of the college back then?
LU: 04:33
All I heard was that it was small liberal arts, and people who went there loved it.
IG: 04:42
And what was your intention? Did you have an idea of what you wanted to study?
LU: 04:50
I thought I wanted to study psychology, and when I arrived, I discovered that psychology at Harpur was experimental psychology. It was not the clinical psychology that I thought I would be taking, and I discovered that I loved experimental psychology, and so it was a great fit. In my last year, I thought, "Oh, maybe I really want to go to medical school and not go on in psychology." But then by that time, it was too late to start taking chemistry and all of the other pre-med courses. But I often rude not going on in medicine, it would have been much easier at NIH having an MD than a PhD to be successful.
IG: 06:03
Could you expand on that?
LU: 06:07
Having an MD puts you a step ahead of PhDs at the NIH, and it would have been easier becoming getting promoted, becoming a lab chief with a medical degree.
IG: 06:28
So let us, let us stay with Harpur College for a little bit. So do you remember any you know, what are some of the turning points you said that you wanted to that made you appreciate experimental psychology. What did you love about it?
LU: 06:50
I love my professors. I love [crosstalk]
IG: 06:53
Who were they? Do you remember?
LU: 06:56
No, I just remember being inspired.
IG: 07:02
How early-
LU: 07:06
I love the subject matter. It just resonated with me.
IG: 07:11
So, what kind of experiments did you do? Do you remember? What did you learn from them? What-
LU: 07:22
I loved working with rats. And it just made a lot of sense to me, and I went on in experimental psychology and only became a neuroscientist later.
IG: 07:51
So, what kind of things were revealed to you about cognition through these early experiments that you did?
LU: 08:02
Well, I learned about reinforcement. That was, that was a big, big thing about experimental psychology at the time. And then, through my classes, I discovered about this amazing thing called brain stimulation, that electrodes placed in the brain and stimulating certain reward structures would be as reinforcing as eating and drinking.
IG: 08:38
How interesting.
LU: 08:42
So that reward could come from external events like food drinking, but also from centers in within the brain itself, and those centers could be stimulated and lead to reinforcement and reward.
IG: 09:06
So, did you learn that at Harpur College? Were you doing-
LU: 09:10
I read about it at Harpur and then that is what I did for my PhD work.
IG: 09:17
Where did you do your PhD?
LU: 09:18
At New York University.
IG: 09:20
Okay, so that-that is all very interesting. So let us, let us return to and what yours were. You did you directly go on to your PhD after graduating.
LU: 09:38
I did.
IG: 09:39
Okay.
LU: 09:40
And I-I applied to, I desperately wanted to come back to New York City, so I applied to only schools in New York was accepted every place, and then because NYU had the opportunity to do brain stimulation work. I went there.
IG: 10:04
That is, that is a fascinating line of study. Let us return to Harpur College, just let us stay with Harpur College, just for a while longer. So, you cannot recall the faculty that made an impression, but they obviously did, and they sort of directed your future career. Just what was the- did you make friends on campus? What were your class- what were some of your experience, experiences with residential life and-
LU: 10:44
I had a very-very close group of friends when I was there, there were five or six of us who were inseparable.
IG: 10:57
Did they- were they all in the psychology?
LU: 11:02
No.
IG: 11:02
No.
LU: 11:03
No. I just, I think, the first day I arrived, I met Linda Gray, who turned out to become my best friend for life. And I met Carol Fox, who turned out to be a lifelong friend until she died. Pam Cerrapo, Susan Novogratzky, most of these women are gone now, sadly.
IG: 12:09
So, you know, how did you spend your time together with your friends?
LU: 12:15
We used to hang out in the student center and drink coffee and play cards.
IG: 12:22
Oh, did you have any-any opportunity to go to Binghamton for dinners, or did you spend all your time on campus?
LU: 12:38
We used to hang out at a bar called Gentleman Joe's. We really liked it because it was integrated with people of all color.
IG: 12:59
Good. That is interesting. So were you, were you progressive, do you think in your [crosstalk]
LU: 13:10
I arrived at Harpur with sort of a bunch of plaid skirts and pretty tops, and I left in jeans. So, it really completely changed me.
IG: 13:30
It completely changed you, um-
LU: 13:35
It made me aware.
IG: 13:36
Yes, and how do you think-
LU: 13:39
And of course, we all got very caught up in the anti-war movement-
IG: 13:43
I see.
LU: 13:44
-in those days.
IG: 13:45
Did you-
LU: 13:47
Marches on Washington so on.
IG: 13:49
Did you take part in them?
LU: 13:50
Oh yes.
IG: 13:51
You went to Washington and-
LU: 13:53
Oh yes. I remember my father being very scared for me, telling me not to sign anything, but he grew up in a very scary time.
IG: 14:17
So just tell me a little bit about the political activity that was taking place on campus at the time.
LU: 14:24
Well, we all became very-very anti-war, and we knew people who were a little bit ahead of us, who were actually being drafted and being sent to Vietnam. And um-
IG: 14:48
How-
LU: 14:49
I-I when I remember, I married someone from Harpur, my first husband was Ricky Youngerlighter, and he went to medical school, and I remember after we were desperate-desperate to get him sent to some place safe. And so, he accepted a- he was offered to go to Oklahoma for two years to work with Indians, which is what we did.
IG: 15:33
That must have been a really eye-opening experience, right? What did you see-
LU: 15:40
It was not. Well. So, Oklahoma is the only place where there are no reservations. So, he simply worked in a clinic, but it was not a very nice place to be.
IG: 16:00
So, did this happen after you earned your degree?
LU: 16:06
It was after. It was just when I got my PhD.
IG: 16:11
I see.
LU: 16:12
And he had just finished his medical internship at Albert Einstein.
IG: 16:18
Yeah. So, you know, returning a little bit to the student organizing. Where did it take place? How many people were involved? Do you remember? Was there just a handful of friends?
LU: 16:38
Oh, no, it was, I mean, Harpur was a very, very progressive school, and so it was, it was almost universal on campus about being involved.
IG: 16:53
So large numbers of people went to march on Washington. Did you protest in town at all?
LU: 17:06
That, I do not remember.
IG: 17:08
On campus?
LU: 17:09
There was nothing to protest on campus. The campus was, who would you protest against on campus?
IG: 17:20
I have heard of protests on campus.
LU: 17:23
I see, I do not remember that.
IG: 17:24
You do not remember those. So, did you go to Washington to protest since the Vietnam War?
LU: 17:34
The marches on Washington were actually after I graduated.
IG: 17:40
I see, I see, I see.
LU: 17:43
It was- that would be (19)68 and that was that would be two years after I graduated.
IG: 17:48
After you graduated. So, did you belong to any other student clubs? Were you active in any-
LU: 18:02
Not that I recall, no.
IG: 18:10
Did you feel at the time that the expectations of women students were different than of male students at all? Were you protesting against? Did you have any sense of the feminist movement or that was too early.
LU: 18:30
I think that was too early.
IG: 18:32
Yeah.
LU: 18:38
I think that was too early.
IG: 18:41
Did you chafe at the restrictions that existed for women students, such as curfews, earlier curfews for women than for men?
LU: 18:55
I do not think I- it even occurred to me.
IG: 19:05
Um, so apart from your organizing for you know, to protest against the Vietnam War, what were some of the significant events on campus at the time, and how did you feel about them?
LU: 19:26
The one thing I remember, I remember walking over the Esplanade and hearing about Jack Kennedy's death. That was amazing. I remember that was um-
IG: 19:45
Just remind us who Jack Anderson?
LU: 19:47
No, John F, Kennedy.
IG: 19:50
John F, Kennedy. Of course.
LU: 19:51
President.
IG: 19:52
Of course.
LU: 19:53
Died while I was a student at Harpur.
IG: 19:57
Right.
LU: 19:58
And we all adored him.
IG: 20:03
Yes.
LU: 20:06
So that seemed like the end of an era.
IG: 20:16
Yeah, I remember that day, too. So, you know how-
LU: 20:26
Yes, I do not know if I can talk about this.
IG: 20:30
Talk, turn it off.
LU: 20:31
Turn it off. So, one thing that I do remember vividly is discovering drugs at Harpur, I had barely even had alcohol when I arrived. I was only 16 at the time, when I started.
IG: 20:56
Just very young.
LU: 20:57
Yes, and within a year, it was just drugs were just everywhere.
IG: 21:06
Right.
LU: 21:07
And no- no one was drinking anymore. People were just smoking pot all the time.
IG: 21:19
What- did that contribute to your understanding of an interest in psychology? Or was just that a release and no part of the culture? Yeah.
LU: 21:29
Part of the culture of when you went to parties, you smoked pot, you danced, listened to live music.
IG: 21:36
What were you listening to? What music were you listening to?
LU: 21:40
The rolling- it started with the Beatles and turned it into the Rolling Stones.
IG: 21:46
Did you feel that that sort of contributed to any kind of political, your politicization, or not?
LU: 21:56
Part of the whole culture at the time.
IG: 22:00
Uh-huh, which meant anti-establishment, or what did it mean for you? Breaking boundaries?
LU: 22:13
It meant that all the rules were different. You did not need to follow your parent’s rules anymore. You had you set your own rules, and I-I remember each vacation going home, feeling more and more anxious as I would get closer and closer to home and feeling when I would leave home free and liberated. And it is odd because I became very establishment later. I followed a very traditional course, getting a PhD. I did not tune out.
IG: 23:10
And you got married, which also-
LU: 23:12
[crosstalk] right, at a young age.
IG: 23:16
At a young age, and you were thinking, yet it was an enlarging experience, and-
LU: 23:22
It was totally wonderful. I look back on those days, it just totally liberating for me.
IG: 23:34
What-what were some of the things that you saw differently during those years that you had, you mentioned that your clothes had changed.
LU: 23:47
It was, it was all against consumption.
IG: 23:53
I see.
LU: 23:53
what- I mean. The whole thing about our parents’ generation was acquisition to get the best the home, what you wore, the car, kind of car you drove, and we were very much against that acquisitiveness. It was good to just wear jeans.
IG: 24:29
And yet you were all as a group, very determined students.
LU: 24:35
We were all very determined and motivated. And I guess many of us went on to make a lot of money.
IG: 24:45
Yes, and yes, and accomplish and be successful. Absolutely. This is my experience interviewing the 20 or so people I have interviewed so far. So how did you, how did you envision your future?
LU: 25:02
I had zero vision. I-I feel like my entire life has been accidental. It has just been follow my nose where it leads me. So, I went to NYU because I wanted to go back to New York City, not because, well, a little because of the program, but I picked NYU because of all the programs there. It had a good program in experimental psychology [crosstalk]But my main goal was to get back to New York City.
IG: 25:46
Right. I see, I see.
LU: 25:53
And then after getting my degree, it was I went to Oklahoma for two years just so that my husband could be in the Public Health Service and serve Indians. And then I wound up at Stanford doing a postdoc, because he went to Stanford to do his residency, so I just had to be at Stanford.
IG: 26:26
So, when were you at Stanford? What were you years?
LU: 26:29
That was (19)72 to (19)75.
IG: 26:35
And what was that experience?
LU: 26:38
So that I transitioned from psychology into neuroscience. I started doing brain research in monkeys there, and that set my future.
IG: 26:58
So did you continue in the stimulation of [crosstalk]
LU: 27:02
No, I know, I [crosstalk] I-I discovered Karl Pribram [Karl Harry Pribram] at Stanford. And-
IG: 27:14
Who was he?
LU: 27:15
He is a he is often called the Magellan of the brain. He is a neuroscientist who started out as a neurosurgeon and then decided that he needed to do experimental lesions in the monkeys to look at the effects on perception and memory, and he became my mentor at Stanford, and I started looking at perception in monkeys and perceptual deficits that occur after various kinds of brain damage, and that set my career. So, it sort of changed me from rodent work to non-human primate work.
IG: 28:25
But, you know, still along a kind of a continuum, right?
LU: 28:31
Yeah.
IG: 28:32
Because you are working with parts of the brain and seeing what effect they have on behavior.
LU: 28:38
Absolutely.
IG: 28:39
So, what kind of things did you learn from-from your years at Stanford, were, you know, what, what kind of, what kind of things were you seeing in the monkeys?
LU: 28:55
So, we were creating lesions of what was called extra stride cortex, not primary visual cortex, so it was more like association cortex, and we were getting minimal impairments. And I presented this work at a society, one of the earliest Society for Neuroscience meetings. I think it was in (19)74 or (197)5. And at that meeting, another scientist, all established scientist came up to me and said, "You know, we are getting very, very different results from yours." And he said, "I think you should come to my lab for a few years, and we can sort this out." And he introduced himself as Mort Mishkin [Mortimer Mishkin], who was very established, renowned neuroscientist.
IG: 30:21
And where was he?
LU: 30:22
He was here at the National Institute of Mental Health. And so, I came to do a second postdoc with Mishkin, and that really set my trajectory in science.
IG: 30:40
So, what kind of things were you seeing differently?
LU: 30:45
So, we were getting minimal effects-
LU: 30:47
-of these lesions, and he was getting massive effects. And these lesions were supposed to presumably disconnect primary visual cortex from higher order perceptual processing areas. And so, if the lesion is supposed to disconnect, you should get a massive result. And when I arrived here, we decided, oh, well, we do not actually know what tissue to remove to produce the disconnection.
IG: 30:47
I see.
IG: 31:33
Right.
LU: 31:35
And so, he said, “Well, in order to figure that out, you are going to have to learn some more anatomy, neuroanatomy."
IG: 31:45
Right.
LU: 31:46
And for the next 20 years, I did neuroanatomical experiments laying out the anatomy of the visual cortex.
IG: 31:56
So, you would lay out the anatomy, but somebody else would conduct the surgery, actually, where there was-
LU: 32:05
No, I-I-
IG: 32:06
You did all of that, you learned all of this.
LU: 32:11
And in the process of doing that, and also, we were doing behavioral experiments in parallel. Together, Mishkin and I discovered what we later called two cortical visual systems. There is a system projecting they both originate in the primary visual cortex, but one projects ventrally into the temporal lobe, and one projects dorsally into the parietal lobe, and the ventral system is specialized for recognizing what an object is, and the dorsal system is specialized for recognizing where an object is, and that discovery or that conceptualization is what earned me election to the National Academy of Sciences.
LU: 33:26
When did that happen?
LU: 33:33
That was in 2000.
IG: 33:44
Did it change your life?
LU: 33:48
It was pretty wonderful.
IG: 33:50
Yeah.
LU: 33:50
It was, it was pretty amazing. It probably did. I mean, I was already a lab chief at the time, but the recognition that you get from other scientists is just amazing. And of course, you know, my parents were just over the moon.
IG: 34:21
What did they say about you?
LU: 34:23
They would, oh, they just, you know, they just-
IG: 34:41
Yeah, it is wonderful. It is a wonderful thing. You probably got a lot more media attention, right?
LU: 34:48
Well-
IG: 34:48
A lot more people wanted to do interviews with you.
LU: 34:52
That happened, but often, if there would be a scientific discovery, the media would contact me to ask, what did I think about it? You know, what, what was, what were the implications, things like that. And of course, then I was named to many advised scientific advisory boards-
IG: 35:18
Such as.
LU: 35:19
Yeah, for example, the group or foundation which awards a lot of money is philanthropic.
IG: 35:31
So, you have a, you really have a say in determining who receives a grant. That is that is very major in your line of work.
LU: 35:42
And for example, I sit on the brain and Behavior Research Foundation, which gives out a lot of money.
IG: 35:54
The- you know the field has advanced over the years that you have been a scientist, what are you know- what are some of the future directions in your line of work?
LU: 36:10
Well, I-I think genetics that, I mean, I think, I think in all of medicine, I think genetics is really going to have a profound influence. The field of neurology has made a lot of advances, not so much psychiatry, and I think there are still profound discoveries to be made in psychiatry.
IG: 36:53
And DNA plays a big role in that.
LU: 36:56
We are still sort of sorting that out. What can we learn from, you know, the genetics of psychiatric illness?
IG: 37:07
Is that what you are studying now?
LU: 37:09
Yeah, I am- I collaborate.
IG: 37:11
You collaborate. What are just clinicians with clinicians? What are just some of the insights? It is a fascinating.
LU: 37:18
Well, I mean, I think we are at the starting point. So, for example, we do not know at all what causes autism. Why there is a rise in the rate of autism? Is it environmental in combination with genetic glitches? We have no idea.
IG: 37:46
Do you think it may just be a question of it being diagnosed better?
LU: 37:55
Some people suggest that. But others say no.
IG: 38:05
Do you know the work of Dr. Fishback, Jerry Fishback [Dr. Gerald Fishback]?
LU: 38:16
In New York?
IG: 38:19
Yes-yes. So, he, I mean, I know that he is an autism expert-expert, and he was my, I worked with him, not as a scientist, but as a fundraiser at Columbia Medical Center. And I know he went on to the Simons Foundation, and so I have seen him on television,
LU: 38:40
And used to be at NIH in fact.
IG: 38:46
Did your paths ever cross?
LU: 38:48
Oh, yeah.
IG: 38:48
Yes.
LU: 38:49
I have had dinner at his home.
IG: 38:50
Oh, wow, it is a small world.
LU: 38:53
Yeah.
IG: 38:54
It is a small world. It is of specialists. So, what did you see your future work in?
LU: 39:04
My future, I have no future. I mean, I think I am. I am at the end of my career; the future is with the young people now entering the field. I mean, I feel like I am- I have lived my life as a scientist. I have achieved my goals, and it is time for me to pass that on to younger people.
IG: 39:42
So, are you mentoring currently, scientists?
LU: 39:44
Oh, I have a lab full of post docs and one graduate student who I mentor.
IG: 39:53
And what kind of experiments are you working on?
LU: 39:56
So, what we are working on now is mainly, how do we identify faces, and how do we recognize different facial expressions. And we are also working with a group of patients who have what is called Mobius Syndrome.
IG: 40:34
And what is that?
LU: 40:35
It is a defect. It is a genetic disease resulting in a defect in the seventh cranial nerve, and as a result, these people experience facial paralysis, which means they cannot make facial expressions. It is actually a newly recognized disease, and they have varying extents. It is, it is so well recognized now that they often go in for facial surgery so that the surgeon can so that they are left with a slight smile right on their face. But we have, we have seen some adults who only recently learned that they have this syndrome, this illness, they were never diagnosed as children.
IG: 41:55
So, they are unable to emote with their face right also, it has to do with-with recognizing others.
LU: 42:07
We are looking at right now, and what we are finding is that they actually are impaired in recognizing-
IG: 42:16
In both ways.
LU: 42:17
-others facial expressions. And so, we think that one learns about to recognize facial expressions by imitating others expressions and then getting feedback from one's own musculature.
IG: 42:38
That is, that is enormous. That is great. That is a great insight. Thank you. I feel privileged to learn this.
LU: 42:51
And so, and we are also looking at what are the which of the areas of the brain. We do a lot of brain imaging in our work.
IG: 42:59
Right.
LU: 42:59
And so, we are looking at which of the areas of the brain that get activated when one recognizes emotional expression.
IG: 43:08
I am just wondering the people with Mobius, could they have been misdiagnosed as having some kind of Asperger's or social impairment? Is that ever the case?
LU: 43:25
Not the people that we have been seeing?
IG: 43:29
I see, okay, so that is, that is, that is really so what is-
LU: 43:37
But I should tell you that we are also seeing a difference between our younger patients and our adult patients.
LU: 43:48
How so?
LU: 43:48
In that the younger ones do not seem to have this impairment, and we were, there is a conference that is taking place in May, and because they have established a huge network now that this syndrome is recognized, and we want to understand, since it is recognized at such a young age, do they undergo training that enables them to overcome the impairment that we see in the adults?
IG: 44:32
So, are you working with therapists of some kind, or?
LU: 44:36
There is a whole group of people-
IG: 44:39
There is a whole group of people, I am sure.
LU: 44:40
-at NIH.
IG: 44:42
Do you think that you are responding, or are you one of the innovators, or?
LU: 44:48
We just, we just found out.
IG: 44:51
You found out. So, you actually, you made a discovery.
LU: 44:55
We just attached, or we just found out about this group of patients. And we just thought, oh, this is really interesting. Let us test this idea about the recognition.
IG: 45:13
I completely understand. So, when did this happen?
LU: 45:17
Within the last two years.
IG: 45:18
Within the last two years, has it been published? Have any papers been writing-
LU: 45:22
[crosstalk] writing up our first paper now.
IG: 45:27
That is tremendous. So, you actually have identified a disorder.
LU: 45:34
Well, we did not identify Mobius. We identified this impairment.
IG: 45:40
You identify the impairment so and then the causes of it.
LU: 45:46
And that is what we are writing, yeah, exactly.
IG: 45:49
That is, that is tremendous. That is, that is tremendous. So, you know, how do you I have to go back to Harpur College and Binghamton. Do you think that your- that this early experience in any way prepared you for the just extremely interesting life that you have had of taking risks and in your career and kind of going with your almost gut instinct, or is that a personality trait?
LU: 46:31
It is hard to know.
IG: 46:32
It is hard to know.
LU: 46:34
It was, I think for me, it was the perfect fit because it was the school was, at the time, very small and intimate and everyone, you felt this sense of really belonging, and-and yet safe, where you could sort of express yourself, explore your ideas. So, it was really well suited for me.
IG: 47:12
Right-right.
LU: 47:14
And-and I think it really gave me the confidence to go out into the world and become something I think maybe for a lot of us.
IG: 47:29
That is what I am hearing.
LU: 47:30
Because we all became pretty accomplished.
IG: 47:33
Yes-yes, it was it. You know, somebody said that it was a- the experience of an elite liberal arts college at a state university [crosstalk] and it gave exposure to many disciplines that you otherwise would not have experienced. You know, you know somebody who is listening to this interview, a student now or later, do you have any advice for this student on how to navigate their- you know, undergraduate career, what should they be thinking about it? What is the biggest lesson that you learned throughout your life?
LU: 48:30
Follow your instincts, whatever feels good, right and good, go down that path.
IG: 48:39
Hmm, and that is, that is really the lesson of your life.
LU: 48:46
Totally.
IG: 48:47
Right.
LU: 48:50
I mean, even when I arrived here at NIH to do a second postdoc, I had no clue I would get tenure become a lab chief. It did not occur to me, it just it felt good being here, and I loved what I was doing, and so I would just encourage everyone do what you love to do.
IG: 49:22
How long have you been at the NIH?
LU: 49:24
Since 1975.
IG: 49:32
And how do you-you must have had highs and lows in that career.
LU: 49:36
So-
IG: 49:37
So how do you persevere when, when you are going through the valley?
LU: 49:42
In, I think it was in 1978 my postdoc was ending, and that was it. There was no it was ending. That was it. And there was no position for me. And I started looking around what was available in the area. I was looking at administrative positions on the National Research Council. I remember going on interviews, and then another scientist in a different institute, also doing perceptual work, said, "You know, Leslie, I am just, I am getting a new lab. I have these positions. I do not want to fill them yet, I but I want to hold them. I am afraid I will lose them. So can I slip you in to a position you can still work with Mort Michigan, yes, but you will hold that slot for me." And so, I said, "Sign me up." And I did. And then two years later, Mishkin got a real ft, full time employee slot. He put me in it and-
IG: 51:41
And you were already kind of in the groove of that work, and you were enjoying.
LU: 51:44
Right.
IG: 51:45
Yeah, so just so maybe to be open to experience and to-to opportunity, and to just hang on.
LU: 51:59
Hang on, hang in there.
IG: 52:04
Do you have any concluding remarks? Is there anything that you would like to talk about?
LU: 52:19
[crosstalk] say that I still look back on my college days at Harpur as just among the best of my life I really turned into a real person there. I made great friends, friends for life, really. they were very happy years.
IG: 53:05
Thank you. Thank you very much.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Leslie G. Ungerleider
Subject
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Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institute of Mental Health; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the National Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area
Contributor
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Ungerleider, Leslie G. ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
Description
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Dr. Ungerleider is an experimental psychologist and neuroscientist, and Chief of the Laboratory of Brain and Cognition at the National Institute of Mental Health. Ungerleider has been elected to the National Academy of Sciences (2000), the American Academy of Arts and Sciences (2000), the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences (2001), and the Society of Experimental Psychologists. In 2009 she received the William James Fellow Award by the Association for Psychological Science in recognition of how her research advanced our understanding of brain function and its relevance to public health and also for her mentorship of young researchers.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2018-03-16
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In Copyright
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eng
Type
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Sound
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Leslie Ungerleider.mp3
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2018-03-16
Is Part Of
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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53:10 minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a241e9b50dd29b12de82cf8cd00ff17c.mp3
590da30bb3caaeba63c5c2aed19fd853
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Audio interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2011-01-29
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Linda Borus
Language
English
Biographical Text
Linda Borus is the Chief Investigator with the State Appellate Defender Office, State of Michigan. Borus was an activist and Ph.D. student at Columbia University when she became the investigator for Bernard Stroble (Shango) case, as part of the Attica Defense Committee. After this trial, she devoted her entire career to working in the criminal justice system.
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<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"The 1960s; Columbia; Attica; John Kennedy's assassination; Malcolm X; Martin Luther King Jr; Anti-War Movement; Mohammad Ali; Baby boomer generation"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">The 1960s; Columbia; Attica; John Kennedy's assassination; Malcolm X; Martin Luther King Jr; Anti-War Movement; Mohammad Ali; Baby boomer generation</span>
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130:39
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Michigan State Appellate Defender Office; Public defenders; Borus, Linda--Interviews
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Interview with Linda Borus
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Borus, Linda ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Michigan State Appellate Defender Office; Public defenders; Borus, Linda--Interviews
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Linda Borus is the Chief Investigator with the State Appellate Defender Office, State of Michigan. Borus was an activist and Ph.D. student at Columbia University when she became the investigator for Bernard Stroble (Shango) case, as part of the Attica Defense Committee. After this trial, she devoted her entire career working in the criminal justice system.
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2011-01-29
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.25a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.25b
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McKiernan Interviews
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130:39
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2021-08-06
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Linn Washington
Duration
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1:44:33
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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Digital file
Material Type
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Interview Format
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Audio
Keywords
Activism; 1960s; News; Television; Media coverage; Watergate hearings; Journalism; Police brutality; Blacks; Racism; Civil Rights Protest; Vietnam War; Bigotry; Dr. Martin Luther King.
Biographical Text
Linn Washington is a professor of journalism at Temple University. He continues to work as a professional journalist where he specializes in investigative news coverage and analytical commentary. Washington also serves as an expert commentator, including appearances on CNN and the BBC World Service. He has a Bachelor's degree in <span>Communications from Temple University and a Master's degree in the Study of Law from Yale Law School.</span> Washington is also a graduate of the Yale Law Journalism Fellowship Program.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Linn Washington
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Lynn Bijou
Date of interview: 5 November 2021
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM: 00:03
Alright Linn, you there? Linn? Oh, hello, Linn, are you there? Oh my god. Okay, there is something wrong, see with the phone here. Hold on. Okay. Thank you very much for agreeing to do the interview.
LW: 00:24
Sure, I am glad to do it.
SM: 00:26
And, and my first, first question Linn is could you tell us a little bit about yourself, your growing up years where you went to school, high school, college, your early influences in life.
LW: 00:39
Okay. I-I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, was born on November 17th, 1950. And I grew up in Pittsburgh, I grew up in the east end of Pittsburgh, the Homewood Brushton section. Lipton Upland Street, went to elementary school and high school in Pittsburgh and after I graduated from high school in 1968, I went to school in Ohio for a year then transferred back to, well transferred to Cheyney University, right outside of Philadelphia, they subsequently changed to, or transferred to Temple University, I graduated and started working in the news business. I- my college training was in television news directing, never got a job there, got a job in a newspaper business and have been doing newspaper reporting on and off for over 40 years. And for the last 24 years, I have been a professor of Journalism at Temple University.
SM: 01:49
Yeah, when, obviously, you are a boomer. And [crosstalk] a lot of people that I have interviewed do not like the term being labeled into a generation. So, we have had, we have had a lot of that. But, when you think of the 1960s and early 1970s, that period, really between (19)60 and (19)75, what comes to mind, what are the good thoughts and then what are the bad thoughts?
LW: 02:14
Well, it was one of from my, perspective, it was one of the more expansive periods of, of American history, I really felt that America was finally reaching its promise of equity for all, only to see a retrenchment in the (19)70s. But the (19)60s was, for me a great period to grow up in, very expansive. Very cool. [chuckles] I really enjoyed looking back on what I have read off history, and what I have lived. After that time, I-I do not think I would want to grow up in another period than the (19)60s was really the formative time.
SM: 03:00
Now, of course, we know what was going on in the late (19)70s. About, you know, that-that period when they were trying to move back from what had been accomplished in the-the sick mid- mid (19)60s and very early in the (19)70s. But, when you were, what were the years that you were a Cheyney?
LW: 03:19
I was a Cheyney from 1970 to (19)71 ish. And I, I did a year and a half of Cheyney. So that would have been (19)70 through the first semester - oh spring semester, because in fall, I guess (19)71 I went to, went into Temple [University].
SM: 03:38
Now, when you were Cheyney for that one year, you know, that is a crucial time, 1970. And was-was there a lot of activisms on the campus at that time?
LW: 03:49
There was sufficient amount of activism, but the activism had somewhat chilled by the time I got there, cause in the, I am not sure if it would have probably been the semester prior to me getting there-there was a lot of activisms, and the university came down hard. And some of the activists ended up at the Delaware County Prison- which was up the hill from Cheyney. So, it did have a chilling effect from student activism.
SM: 04:12
[laughs]
LW: 04:18
Yeah-yeah. And I ended up at Cheney because of student activism at the university that I went to out in Ohio. And let us just say as the Marines you know, marines never retreat-
SM: 04:18
Right. That-that happened at Westchester University too. [laughs] Right.
LW: 04:34
But they just did attacks at a rear.
SM: 04:38
Right. When you were there did you-
LW: 04:41
[crosstalk]
SM: 04:42
When you-
LW: 04:43
I will admit I had to make a strategic retreat. [laughter]
SM: 04:46
When you were at Cheyney, did you know that Coretta Scott King's sister was there teaching?
LW: 04:51
No-no.
SM: 04:53
Yeah, she was, she was, she was there- for many-many years teaching theatre. You know, the-
LW: 04:55
I did not know that. Wow.
SM: 04:59
-the boomers are kind of no longer young. Obviously, if the put in that period (19)46 to (19)64. They are now, the front edge are now in their early (19)70s.
LW: 05:09
Oh absolutely.
SM: 05:11
When you view the generation from this timeframe, what were their major accomplishments and you feel, you feel and what were their major failures?
LW: 05:21
Oh, jeez, that is a very wide-ranging question, I think some of the major accomplishments were to continue to expand the, the middle class. I think there was a lot of learning that-that went on, both individually and collectively in terms of society in the (19)60s, early (19)70s. Where I think the generation failed, is that we, did not continue to push for the what was considered the values at that time, in the (19)60s. I mean, it was, you know, a lot of talk about, the rat race and, and resisting the, you know, just the work all the time, you know, sort of the materialism. A lot of that seemingly was going from what you needed to do to something that you probably should not do. And then there was that boomerang back, I guess it is pretty much started in the early, (19)80s, rather, with the Reagan administration-
SM: 06:31
Right.
LW: 06:31
And emphasis on me, individualism versus collectivism. So, I just see a failing of the baby boomer generation to really push and try to do all that they could to ensure that American democracy work the way that was said to work. And I am not only speaking in terms of the promises that have yet to be fulfilled when you are talking about persons of color. But I am just talking about society in general. We look at things like now, we are having a horrific problem, and almost an existential problem with, with climate change. I mean, the jet stream is breaking down. I just read this morning, again, that the Gulf Stream is breaking down, and having horrendous, floods and wildfires. I remember in the late (19)70s, when then, President Jimmy Carter had issued an edict that, to increase the gas mileage on cars. And he has faced a weathering pushback. Now, if that had had, that had happened, then we may have been in a position where vehicles would be less polluting. So, this focus on money and the politicization of things that should never be politicized, has now put us in a situation where I am quite concerned about what world my grandchildren will-
SM: 07:01
Yes.
LW: 07:30
Grow up in and what their children will face and endure.
SM: 08:23
Yeah, I got some other questions later in the interview that are going to deal with some of these things. And, you know, that you probably had this sense when you were a student there, I was just a couple of years ahead of you, that, that we were living in a period of which was so unique and so different than, you know, things were finally revealed to us that we hadn't heard about a whole lot in the (19)50s when I was, growing up as kids, and about all the bad things that were happening. And then, we heard about the Montgomery Bus Boycott, what Dr. King's doing, we learn all about, more about the KKK, we learned the truth about Native Americans and Indians on TV. Were, we see all these things in the (19)60s, you know, that, you know, we are going to live up to what our constitution says, you know, we the people means, we the people grow, we are all one. I, I just wonder if that, this utopian mentality that many of the boomers had at that particular time that we, that is our generation is going to be the change agent for the betterment of society in just about every way. Was it, was basically a dream? Hot in the moment or, you know, you know, what has happened to this generation as they have gotten older?
LW: 09:41
Well, I think the belief that change was coming, you know, change was right around the corner that, that things would change. substantively. That was, definitely in the year. It was a seer, and it was really heartfelt, but I did not think are afoot here. Number one, that sentiment was not held by the majority of those in that generation. It was always a small number of people, but because of media coverage, and that sort of thing, it gave an aura over the whole generation, which was not there. And I think, one thing that people who felt that and were actually working, as they perceived as change agents, did not recognize the resiliency in the intransigence of quote, the system. There is, you know a lot of inertia to keep things the way they are a lot of inertia, to maintain the status quo. And this effort and desire to change bumped up against that and lost, a lot of people may have wanted to do some change. But the, the demands and dictates of life 101-
SM: 11:01
Yes.
LW: 11:01
Have a job, keep a roof over your head, maintain a family, it is hard to maintain any sense of activism and change when you know, the notion is to conform, and to just, you know, survive. And I think that is what happened with a lot of people. Hey, you know, we, we love that [inaudible] woman in, in 1978. But now it is, I mean, 1968, but now it is (19)78, I have two kids, I have a car.
SM: 11:32
Right.
LW: 11:32
They need to be in, your car needs to be paid for at the end of the month, rent, mortgage, whatever. And more people just got sucked up into the system. And then it was just you know; they were parts of the status quo versus the change agent. And the change may have been still within their heart. But do I rock the boat? Do I risk losing what little I have-
SM: 11:34
Yes-yes.
LW: 11:47
-to effectuate change that may or may not be long lasting? So, very few people want to be at, at the front of the line of change-
SM: 12:10
You-you raise-
LW: 12:11
-they want to [inaudible] from it, but they do not want to be, possibly penalized by seeking those changes.
SM: 12:17
You are making a truth to power statement when you are talking about the boomers. And then the percentage of those that were really activists, that even the literature states that maybe only maybe 5 to 7 percent, of the boomer generation was ever involved in activism all, in all the movements. And so, I-I want to raise something that I know Tom Hayden raised when he came to our campus many years back before he passed. And that is when he came to talk about student power, student power, student power to me in the (19)60s or young people power was about empowerment, the term empowerment, not about just I want power. And, and so he tried to explain it to the generation of the early 2000s, that, you know, controlling student government budgets and giving money out to you know, you make decisions on finances and everything to your fellow students. They felt they had all the power they wanted. Now that, that was not the power of the (19)60s, as you recall, the students were not found and wanting to be on making decisions with the Presidents, you know, every, everything, they want, wanted to get on certain committees, make issues, issues dealing with a curriculum, it, it was a sense of empowerment, that my voice mattered, as opposed to just searching for power. And, and when I look at all the movements, and I like your thoughts on this, whether it be the Black Power movement, the-the women, the gay and lesbian, Chicano environmental movement, it was all more about you know, my, I want my voice to be heard at the table.
LW: 14:00
I get the sense that it was, empowerment versus power. Power has the, the individualistic connotations that you know, I have power and I can wield it, versus change for the larger society. And that is when I saw the sentiment from, from the (19)60s that, there was a sense that we could collectively we can make the world better, more livable world. If that means just being kinder to people or at that point, you know, Nathan environmentalism, just trying to, you know I am not saying this in a socialistic way, but just try to get out of the materialistic world that many people felt, was detrimental to the larger society. So, this notion of individual power. I mean, we certainly did not feel that in the student activism that I was involved in. Definitely did not feel that individual sense, was more aligned with the quote unquote black power movement than the civil rights movement. But it was always about the collective, the collective good versus the individual good because at certain points, people were willing to make some material sacrifices. Yeah, so.
SM: 15:22
Yeah, one of the, what, the term watershed has come off many times there were things in one's life, especially when people were younger, that there was a watershed event or moment that changed their life. What was your watershed moment in your life?
LW: 15:41
The watershed moment in my life? Oh, gosh, there was a couple of, I guess one that [chuckles] has turned out really, changed my life was the 1968 Olympics.
SM: 15:57
Oh yeah.
LW: 15:58
When, Tommie Smith and John Carlos made their protests and the, the other athletes made their protests. At that time, I was a student athlete, not of Olympic caliber, let me be clear. [laughs]
SM: 16:12
Did not you get the gold medal, Linn? I thought you got the gold medal. [laughter]
LW: 16:20
I may have had, gold medal, aspirations, but I had lead metal feet so, [laughter] I was not as swift as them. But it really had an, an impact on me, that they would not only, have the excellence in athleticism, but they had that feeling in their heart to use their platform to try to advance the change. Now, I am just not talking about that event itself that took place down in Mexico City, but, I closely followed the build up to that end, and all of the discussions and how that parallel into, you know, other things that were going on in the country, the fight around Muhammad Ali, and his stance on, I guess the Vietnam War, the efforts to try to, have some very serious examinations and re-examinations of racism, both institutional and individual. So, that protests really struck me close to, to the heart. And, as a consequence of that, I tried to organize the track team at the University that I was at, and talk about running, running up against the status quo. It was a 100-yard dash that ended into a brick wall, although I ran hurdles but-
SM: 17:41
[laughs] Yeah.
LW: 17:44
-so, so my activism fizzled real quick, I was actually thrown off the team, thus, you know, no track scholarship and, and then there were, you know just a couple of other events that happened at the university that really changed me around. I, remember, in my one semester, I had an anthropology class and the professor on the first day of class, was going through the evolution of mankind, and said that negroes, she did not say niggers, but she said, negroes were descended from monkeys, and that we actually had a pre tarsal bone. Where we once had tails and, those tails dropped off. And she, specifically [chuckles] said that if, it was not for her desire not to embarrass the white women in the class, she would have asked the few black men in the class to drop their pants to show these, bone, you know, where the bones used to be. And myself and the other black guys in the class, we looked at each other, and, [chuckles] you know, a couple of extra [inaudible], I mean, so it was like, "Okay, no, no, no. We are not going to get up here and smack this woman." We are going to fight her on her turf, which is the intellectual turf. So, we all did well in the class, including on the final, I had the highest score in the class. And then my colleagues were in the, you know, descending order. Purposely to make sure that we were not accused of, cheating, we sat in different sections of the room. Now perhaps, I am mistakenly sitting in the wrong seat because I sit right in front of her. And she was probably intimidated by that. But she, graded our papers and it was like, you know, 100 percent then crossed out, and then F. So, you know, at the end, when we got these back like, "What do you mean an F? You scored it at 100," and her response was, '"Black people are incapable of passing my test. I do not know what you did. I do not know how you cheated, but I know you must have cheated."
SM: 19:31
Oh my god. [laughs]
LW: 19:36
Then we went to the department head, who was a gentleman from Kenya, he said, "You know, I agree with you. But there is nothing I can do. Because if, although you seem to have a very valid case, if I do anything it will be just seen, then I am doing something for you because you are black." You know it is like, wait a minute, we are wronged here. We scored legitimately on this test and the teaching of, and we did not even call the teacher racist, although she was. So, you know, all that hard work we ended up with, with F's in the class. So, those two events during our first year of college, I think were perhaps pivotal. But there, of course, were others along the way. I mean, as you-
SM: 20:45
Wow.
LW: 20:46
-grow, you know, you start seeing different things, small things, and large things, it may have a, a real impact on you.
SM: 20:53
I certainly hope that she did not get tenure. [laughs]
LW: 20:56
Oh, she was tenured.
SM: 20:58
Oh, she was?
LW: 20:59
[crosstalk] Professor. Oh, yeah.
SM: 21:01
Oh, my God. Jeez.
LW: 21:03
Yeah.
SM: 21:04
Well, that is, that certainly a watershed event. One of the things here, also is, you refer to it in the very beginning, but why did you choose to become a journalist? What and, and when, and when you did? What are you - I know, I have, I have read your writings many times. What was your first major news coverage that, in your career, the one that really stood out?
LW: 21:27
Okay-okay. Well, the, [chuckles], some of the first coverage I did that has stood out and still stands out as my coverage of move. I was assigned to move shortly after became a full-time reporter in the fall of 1975. And now, oh gosh, 44 years later, I am still covering move. [laughs] Amazing.
SM: 21:52
Reparations, yeah.
LW: 21:53
But how I became a reporter, it was more like the reporter became me versus me become a reporter. I, one of the good things that happened to me in Ohio, I found an interest in photography. And I, started to shooting pictures. And by the time I was in my last, that last semester, Cheyney (University), I said, well, the new medium is television. So, let me go to Temple (University), which had a program for television. And so, I will be on the cutting edge of what is coming next. I had an interest in news, I wanted to be a television news director. But I wanted to be like a field director. So, you know, I wanted to cover wars and jump out of helicopters with cam, you know, camera equipment, and all that sort of thing. As it turned out, after four hundred resumes into television stations all over the country, including in, Minot, North Dakota. And after I sent a resume there and an application, I found out that was one of the coldest places in the United States. So, I am glad they never called me back. But I never got a call back from many stations and the few stations that I did get a call back for, it was just ugly experiences. And a job opened up at the Philadelphia Tribune, I was already freelancing for them. I had a weekly column called "Checking it Out," where I would cover community news events, their regular entertainment people covered the large venues, that at the time the Spectrum or, you know, somebody like Michael Jackson would come in or some of the, the well-known artists, they covered that. I found that opening by covering small events, you know, things in church, basement things and community centers. And so, I was doing that on a freelance basis when that position opened up. I never wanted to be a print reporter that print. Just the thought of being a print reporter really made me sick on my stomach. The only print reporter that I had any inkling of was a guy named Clark Kent. And Clark Kent was a newspaper reporter incidental to his real job, which was superman. So, I did not know-
SM: 23:08
[laughs]
LW: 24:14
-anything about news reporting. About, as a, you know, young father, the wife at the time said you know, "Love, I am supportive of you and you are achieving your dreams. But we need diapers and food for the kids.' And I was like, "Well, you are right." So, I took the job, at the Tribune. I could always write, that was I think, perhaps the only strength that I have is being a writer. As a child, or not a child, yeah, well, child and a teen, I mean, I was not that good in interpersonal interactions. I was very shy. I could not dance. So, you know, I was always the proverbial wallflower, but I could write, and I saw that as, is my strength. And so, having a writing job you know, fit the skills that I had, and after about six months, it was like, "Wow, I really liked this," because it is kind of fi, a lot of things that I wanted to do. I wanted to be in a position to, say effectuate some change. So, by putting out news that could help people, I had always entertained that I, you know, at some point would be a secret agent or, you know, detective or something like that, while being a reporter I was able to investigate things. It gave me an opportunity to travel, initially just around the city. Well, I know Philadelphia well, right? Because I am reporting all over.
SM: 24:14
[laughs] Right.
LW: 24:39
It was not overseas that, that came, you know, years later. So, I found out that I, I really liked it. But it was not something that I set out to do. I remember, when I graduated from high school I worked in this summer program, and because I could write, they assigned me to the Public Relations staff. And one of the persons who were, one of the other high school graduates that was working there. This guy knew that he wanted to be a reporter. And he knew all of his life that he wanted to be a reporter. And he was on his way to some school, somewhere out in the Midwest, to study journalism, and it was always "Wow, how did this guy know, I mean, what is it about this reporting thing?" [laughs] And then years later, he is, I, become, became a reporter myself. And like I say it after a couple of months, it was, I was bitten by the bug, and I am, I am still doing it.
SM: 26:52
Well doing very well. And [crosstalk] and you are teaching future generations about the way to do it, the right way to do it. I-
LW: 27:01
That is, that is what I am hoping.
SM: 27:02
-yeah, as a journalist, going back to that period between (19)60 and (19)75. Could you just, could you, what were your thoughts on the news at that time, the print journalism, the television, news, newspapers, radio, magazine coverage? And the reason I am bringing this up, is because many plate, many people believe that the Watergate hearings, and the, and how the coverage changed the direction of writing. And that is because of what happened with, you know, the reporters, The Washington Post-
LW: 27:38
Woodward and Bernstein.
SM: 27:38
Yeah, Woodward and Bernstein, and Ben Bradley, and I mean, that whole group. Please describe that, in that particular Watergate, the Watergate hearings, and what it really did to journalism.
LW: 27:54
Well, clearly, the Watergate affair had an impact on journalism, primarily from the works of, Woodward and Bernstein, which in effect, brought down the Nixon presidency. I mean, Nixon, in his crimes and malfeasance crumbled his own administration, but the reportage that had, clearly, in effect, reinvigorated interest in investigative journalism. But at the time, that they were doing what they were doing, and I was just pretty much starting my career. My, let me just roll it back a little bit. You were saying, what was my, opinions on journalism in the (19)60s and the (19)70s.
SM: 28:47
Yes.
LW: 28:48
I did not become a journalist until around (19)72, (19)73, when I started writing. And, and at that point, it really was not, well it was journalism, but it was not news journalism, I was doing entertainment and music reviews and movie reviews. My desire at the time, was to either be a jazz writer, a jazz critic, or a movie critic. So, I really did not have that much of, of interest in news. Now in the, late (19)50s, throughout the (19)60s, and then of course, through the rest of my life. My initial contacts with news was from a consumer point of view, an informational point of view. I grew up in a household where reading a newspaper every day and reading these magazines and other things was required, it was not, was not something that you couldn't do. My grandfather, was an avid reader, one of the smartest person I knew, ever, in life. Although he did not go to college, he had to drop out of college to take care of his sisters after his parents died. He was in enrolled in Tuskegee [University], and he had to come out. But he was an avid reader. And, he was in private service, he worked for a rich family. So, when they were finished with their, National Geographics, and other magazines, they would give him to, Luther [laughs] my grandfather's name. And he would read through them, and then he would dog ear certain articles, you know, and then he would bring them to us. And we had to, we had to read them. We always had a subscription to, the local newspapers. And I was in a couple of, college type programs, so we got free subscriptions to Time and Newsweek. So again, I was just an avid reader, consuming. So, it was not from an analytical point of view, it was just, an informational point of view. So as far as I was concerned, at that time, those publications were providing all the news that I needed to know. And at the same time, I was reading, the Pittsburgh's African American newspaper, "The Pittsburgh Courier." And from time to time, I was reading the publication from the "Nation of Islam: Muhammad speaks." So, I was consuming a lot of different kinds of materials. But again, just trying to learn more about the world. And what I felt was the news that was going on in the world, it was not that I was analyzing it, seeing the deficiencies in it, in areas where, who were, could be improved. Posture that I started taking on, after I became a reporter, and started seeing news from a different perspective, and news organizations from a different perspective.
SM: 31:52
Did you, did your grandfather ever sit down at the kitchen table with you and discuss some of those articles?
LW: 31:59
Oh, yeah-yeah we-
SM: 32:01
That is fantastic.
LW: 32:01
-we would discuss it and they were always discussions in, in the house. And the notion of reading and trying to absorb more information was not just from newspapers. I mean, we would, there was this publication that was put out for kids, it was called "The Weekly Reader." It was a little magazine, and my mom had a subscription to it. So, every, you know, at least once a week, perhaps twice a week, my mom would get my brother and sister and I, and sit us down, and we would go through the Weekly Reader, we would read it together, go through the exercises, and there was always one of these. They had a, ongoing series here called "Goofus and Gallant." And of course, Goofus, was the doofus and he was always doing something wrong. Gallant was always the nice guy, and they were little lessons of life. So, we learned that we did not, never wanted to be Goofus. [laughter] Although we might have aspired to be Gallant, you know, and maybe get there every now and then. But we definitely did not want to be Goofus. [laughter] So, I am just saying that there were, varying levels of literacy in, in my household. Both my parents are college graduates. My dad was in law, my mother was in education. So, reading, and being aware of what is going on around you and trying to develop your mental capacities, was something that came from the parents and from the grandparents. My, my mother's father.
SM: 33:40
I want to talk a little bit more, this was a question for later on, but I think I will bring it in here. And that is, that era of Watergate was really when investigative reporting really took a big jump up, upwards. And a lot of people are going into journalism schools wanting to become the next Woodward and Bernstein and you know that for many years, we do not kind of, I have read articles recently that, that is kind of gone by the waste side now that investigative journalism is not what people are going for. I would like your thoughts. I am going to, just a couple of comments here. Investigation as opposed to cover up. This is a question about your world of journalism. When both in the (19)60s and now in (19)73, Watergate investigation and back in the (19)60s and (19)70s, this is my perception. Everything was studied and investigated. Investigative Journalism seemed to be an all-time high, did not take sides. Everyone was, everyone was looked at. It was not a right or left thing. It was not a red or blue thing. It was everyone. And now we are hitting in this period and 2021 where investigative journalists are becoming dinosaurs, in my view, and newspapers, radio, T.V. are now owned by corporate interests. That was not the case, in the (19)60s, when you had a Katharine Graham, a Ben Bradley, a Woodward and Bernstein, they were not beholden to anybody. Corporate influences seem to be major today, not only on T.V., but in, on radio, and newspapers. Just your overall thoughts on journalism, because this is your career, you are teaching the future of journalism for your students. Do you think of these things too?
LW: 35:28
Well, yeah, I definitely think about where journalism is and where it should be. And how can journalism stay, faithful to its role in American society, the founders of this country, from my reading of history, the founders of this country, gave a little carve out to journalism for a very specific reason. Why we have a, freedom of the press clause of one of the five in the First Amendment was because the founders wanted journalists, well, what was what we now know, as journalists, to provide basically two functions. One was to provide information to the public. So, they can make better informed choices, not just about them, their lives, but specifically about how they should engage in democracy and how democracy should work. So, we need information about what is going on in government so people can make more informed choices. Thus, that concept of the quote, "informed electorate," who was supposed to inform the electorate, the press, and back then it was just the printing press. We did not have, you know, internet, cell phones, video cameras with digital data cards. And, then there was another function that the founders wanted for journalism, and that was to bide a check, a watchdog role on government. The American government is three branches, right, the executive, the legislative, and the judicial. Each of those branches has, quote, checks and balances powers on one or the other. Congress passes the law, the executive, implement the laws, the courts make sure that the implementation and the law itself, is constitutionally, it passes constitutional muster. Now, within that scheme of three branches of government, each with checks and balances powers on each other, the founder said, "Who is going to check the checkers? Whose going to be that entity that makes sure that all of these three branches of government operate in the best interest of the people?" And that is where the press comes in. And that is why we have these freedoms, First Amendment, but we also have that responsibility to provide information and to provide that watchdog role, that constitutional responsibility in terms of its implement implementation, and I would argue it ss embraced, ebbs and flows. I, you laid out how the Watergate investigation worked within Bernstein, reinvigorated investigative reporting, and that there was a lot more independence. back then. I would argue this, that there has always been an interest in investigative reporting. We have got to remember people like, Lincoln Stephens and Ida B. Wells. I mean, think of Ida B. Wells, a woman in a time of just serious machismo. [laughs]
SM: 39:03
Right.
LW: 39:03
And then she is studying and, and reporting on lynching, extra judicial murders committed by mobs. So that, element of investigative reporting has always been there. The fact that, most of your news entities today are owned by corporations, while that has a very dilatory [inaudible] the only thing has changed is that there have, been there are now less owners and operators than there were before. But the, shall we say, the lack of thorough coverage has not changed that much. Whether it was individually owned media, regionally, versus now nationally and internationally owned media. There are certain stories that just do not get out. And, and that was a reflection of the publishers and how those individual publishers, related to the business community in their areas. Let me just give you a couple examples. Philadelphia has a real police community problem and that police community problems stems from police brutality in the city. Police brutality in Philadelphia in 2021, did not start in the year 2000. It literally goes back to the beginnings of the 20th century, the 19, the 1900s. There was a study that was conducted in 1970, about the coverage of the media on police brutality in Philadelphia. And what they found was that the, the news media conscientiously refused to cover police brutality. When in if it was covered, it was covered from the police department's perspective. And whatever the police department said, that was enough. This, bloody bashed black person probably threw themselves down the steps and then ran out and got hit by a bus, and then blamed it on the police. Now, that was 1970. At the time, the SAMSA, we say "The Philadelphia Inquirer," just citing one example, was owned by Walter Annenberg. So, there was a corporate decision by Annenberg to not cover the brutality of the police department.
SM: 39:23
Wow.
LW: 40:33
The paper was subsequently sold to "Knight Ridder," a newspaper chain, Knight Ridder later brought in a new editor, Jean Roberts. Jean Roberts is looking around saying, "Okay, what can we cover? How can we make more of a contribution that would help circulation of newspapers," and they came upon police brutality. They started covering police brutality, won a couple of investigative awards for and their coverage allowed other media in the city, the three, six, ten T.V. stations, "The Bulletin," which was the other newspaper at the time, they finally started giving, more provocative coverage to the issue of police brutality. Now, this is what was happening in the white media. The Philadelphia Tribune, the oldest African American owned newspaper in the country to start a publishing in 1883 had always covered police brutality. But the other newspapers would not. So, to say, you know, from my perspective to say that the news industry was good at one point, now, it is a little better, but not, it just does not track the history of, from what I see what the media has not, has not done.
SM: 43:07
Right.
LW: 43:07
Let us remember, in 1968, the U.S. government issued a, the findings of a presidential commission that examined the urban disturbances of the 1960s. It was called the "Kerner Commission Report." And one of the lines in the kind of commission report that has resonance even today is that America's two countries, you know, separate and distinct, and they are moving further apart. And we have to do something about that. Well, the reality is, it was always two countries, that is, it has been embedded in the law, where black people were not supposed to be a part of this, and neither were Native Americans. But I bring up the Kerner Commission only to say that there is a chapter in the Kerner Commission that deals specifically with the medias, chapter 15. They looked at how the media covered the riots of, of the mid (19)60s. But they also examined the media itself. And one of the things they said, their greatest concern is that the media is failing on it is basic mission to inform. They do not inform their audience, which is why about life in, in black communities. At the time, in 1968 they said to the news media, "It is no longer acceptable to say that you cannot find qualified persons of color to work." There is a whole black media out there that you can gain reporters from. Now when, that was in (19)68, now in 2021, and we still have problems with employment in the media. They have, they have increased some, in (19)68 It was something like 4 percent. Now it is up to about 7 or 8 percent. So yes, in real terms it is double. But, when you have a city of Philadelphia, where over 50 percent of the population are persons of color, and it was an audit just done on "The Enquirer," where their coverage is 60 percent white, what I am saying, you know, who gets into paper in terms of the issues that they focus on the people they quote, his experts, that shows that there is some residual biases, or shall we say endemic biases that still persist in the media.
SM: 44:41
Wow. This, this is wonderful to hear this. And, and I know that the people that will be listening to this interview, as they are all the interviews, will use his research and scholarship in whatever career they are going into. I mean, this is very, this is very important information. I have learned something today just from, just these last 10 minutes. And it is very important. Thank you very much for elaborating, as you have done, I have a list of some things here from the (19)60s and early (19)70s. That I, I know that the media covered them, sometimes they probably over cover them as time goes on. But just, just a few, just brief comments. I got about twenty-two of them here. I, there is many more, but these are events.
LW: 46:02
Okay. [chuckles]
SM: 46:03
The number one is the election of JFK in (19)60. Just your thoughts on that?
LW: 46:11
Well, when JFK was elected in 1960, I was 10 years old. So to me, the world was, tomato soup and- grilled cheese sandwiches-
SM: 46:25
[laughs] Yep.
LW: 46:26
-for lunch. [laughs]
SM: 46:28
Mac and cheese. [laughs]
LW: 46:30
I walked home from school, ate lunch, and then walked back to school.
SM: 46:33
Wow, okay.
LW: 46:35
I have to admit and, and even to this day, I still kind of cringe on this. But the day that the, there was this funeral, the, the formal funeral, after Kennedy was assassinated. We had the day off from school. Some people, like our parents were glued to the television set watching this funeral of an American president. But for me and my friends, it was a day off from school. So, we were out in the street playing football, you know, tag football. So, a lot of these national events, these really pivotal events in American history as a child and a team. That was something that affected grown folks. Yes, the President was shot. I guess that is kind of bad. But gosh, we got a day off from this.
SM: 47:32
Right. Yes.
LW: 47:35
That is, that was my thinking on both the election and the funeral of Kennedy.
SM: 47:40
So, these early, these events like certainly the Cuban Missile Crisis in (19)62. That was unbelievable on T.V. And then as you get into the mid (19)60s, the March on Washington in 1963, Brown versus Board of Education, and certainly the Voting Rights Act of (19)65, and (19)64. And these are, these are things that I remember, and maybe it is just me, but they were monumental in my life, because I was, I was a little older than you. And then of course, the Beatles come to America in (19)64, beginning of the British invasion.
LW: 48:16
I remember that, yeah. It is all. [inaudible]
SM: 48:18
Yep, the [inaudible].
LW: 48:20
I remember watching the Beatles walk off the, walk off the airplane and young ladies were just fainting at the airport. And I am just sitting there at the T.V. looking at this stuff, and wow, this is really crazy.
SM: 48:31
[laughs]
LW: 48:32
Beatles made some nice music. But this, is kind of like the, the glamour of, of the time- -of the time period. Remember the, the great civil rights work and a lot of the, as you say, the passage of the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act. I mean, I read about those and knew what was going on. I could relate to some of that because, say, I told you my father was a lawyer, but he was also a politician. And the neighborhood that I grew up in Homewood when we moved to Homewood. Lastly, my parents always lived in Homewood. But, as we move from an apartment to an apartment to the finally the home that they purchased, the neighborhood was primarily white. And at the time, Pittsburgh was doing urban renewal in the area right off downtown. And there was a phrase called, "Urban Renewal means Negro removal." So, they were going into these black neighborhoods, tearing everything down, to build new office buildings, or in, Pittsburgh's case what they call the Civic Arena, which was a venue for concerts and sporting events. But they go there right in the black neighborhood, but the black neighborhood was right next to downtown [inaudible] district. So, a lot of those people were moving out into Homewood and my father was part of an effort to secure the ward championship in Homewood to persons of color. And so, I am saying this to say that the group that he led, and he ultimately did become the board leader. But the group that he led, which was an interracial group, need to emphasize that they held meetings two or three times a week in my living room, Portland, the living room, or my parents’ house.
SM: 48:39
Right.
LW: 48:39
I was not paying any the bills, so. [laughter] [crosstalk] But they met every night. I mean, there is like 30-40 people crammed into the living room and the dining room. And I am sitting on the steps. And I am not really realizing all that is going on here. And I am listening to this and listen to that. And I am listening pretty much I am a little perturbed because I wanted to go into the kitchen and get a bowl of cereal and some snacks. Before I went to bed, and I could not come down the steps. It was always adults there. [laughter] When I am, I am looking at change, but not really realizing the enormity of what I am looking at. And the years later, I stumbled upon clippings that my mother kept. And I saw the, their struggles that they went through, people were fired from their jobs, it was physical intimidation, it took them like two or three years to actually effectuate change. So, and I was oblivious to the change that was going on, I mean, I saw it in you know, different ways and different places. But again, being a child and then a teen. My interests were not in the macro fans, who were in, in the microphones in front of me, where we want to go swimming tonight, and this was at a time. Now I told you I grew up in Pittsburgh. So, we are not talking about Pittsburgh. There is a Pittsburgh, Alabama, and Mississippi. And there is a Pittsburgh, California. So, I am not talking about down south. I am talking about-
SM: 48:39
Right-right.
LW: 50:41
-Pennsylvania, I had to walk almost three miles to go to a public pool because the public pool in our neighborhood, which was about eight blocks away. Negroes were not allowed in. In 1969, I ended up being a lifeguard there. And I was the first or second black lifeguard had ever been at that pool.
SM: 52:32
My god.
LW: 52:33
So, there was discrimination all around. When I would go to my father's, mother's house on the other side of the city, they lived up on Mount Washington in an area called Bell's Hoover, there was a high school literally in the, in the junior high school, literally a half a block away from the back door of my grandmother's house. But we could not go there to go swimming because of the racial situation. So, we had to walk again two miles to a public pool that allowed negros in, but we had to walk through various white neighborhoods. So, we were always there, you know, looking around to see if we were going to get beat up, walking through these neighborhoods. So again, I understood these things. But, again, I did not grasp the enormity of it, until I got older and was able to look back and see some of these things. And then, also started looking at the things around me at the time, with the perception of an older person that had a little more understanding about the dynamics that were going on in the country.
SM: 53:37
Linn was that also, was when you became a lifeguard at that, basically segregated pool. Was that one of those watershed moments in your life? You really, you were, you were an older person now as a teenager, so.
LW: 53:51
Right, yeah. I guess in some ways, it was a watershed moment, but not. It was just one of those things that happen. I was more interested in the fact that I landed a summer job that paid good money. [laughter]
SM: 54:05
Right.
LW: 54:07
Versus me to see myself as someone who helped desegregate the place.
SM: 54:11
Right.
LW: 54:12
Now, I had a nice job. I made good money. I was not, you know, lifting garbage cans or you know, painting walls like-
SM: 54:19
Right.
LW: 54:19
-some of the summer jobs where I could chill out in the swimming pool. And it was an easy way to collect money. [laughs]
SM: 54:26
Let me just, [crosstalk] let me just read a few more of these, I will just read them and you can just comment in at the very end if you want to. These are ones that certainly the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution of (19)64, the formation of the American Indian Movement in (19)68. Certainly, the Black Panthers with Cleaver, Newton, and Brown. The Montgomery boycott was actually much earlier, the formation of snick. You know, and I was young enough to know the conversion from John Lewis to Stokely Carmichael. And, what happened at Selma. Certainly, the Chicago convention and 1968 after King's murder, Bobby Kennedy's murder, the Chicago 8 trial, the landing on the moon in (19)68, Stonewall in (19)69, the Kent State killings in (19)70, McGovern is defeated by Nixon in (19)72, in a landslide. And then, Goldwater was defeated in (19)64 by L.B.J. And Agnew, continues to attack students in all of his speeches, Nixon silent majority, the Vietnam War from (19)67 to (19)71. The coup in (19)62, when Kennedy was president, while standing at the schoolhouse door, which I remember, like anything, the women's movement, and the protests of Miss America contest, the Watergate hearings, these are just some of the things that were the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And, of course, we ended up getting disco in the middle of the, (19)70s.
LW: 54:57
[laughs]
SM: 55:35
And, and the great music of you know, Barry White and Isaac Hayes. And I mean-
LW: 55:45
Oh yeah-yeah.
SM: 55:45
-this whole is, you know, it is like you, like you mentioned, Linn, it was an unbelievable time to live in.
LW: 56:01
Yeah.
SM: 56:02
Sad, a lot of sadness. But, you know, I do not know if you want to comment on any of those that were had.
LW: 56:10
Well, sure. The Vietnam War was definitely a big part of all of our lives. And we saw it, played out live on television, but saw it in some other ways too, the, you know, in the initial phases of the Vietnam War, not the initial phases, because the Vietnam War, actually, the Vietnam War actually started in the late (19)50s, when Americans were sent in after the French would run out, and Americans were sent in as advisors- -initially. And then they started bringing in, Special Forces, but at the time the Special Forces were more paratroopers than Green Berets. And then when we get to around the mid (19)60s, things are starting to ramp up. And with that ramping up of, drawing people into the war, there was this draft. And, I remember sitting in high school, we would go home on Fridays, we come back on a Monday, and there would be missing seats in the classroom. When I say missing seats, I mean a person is missing from those seats, because everybody was assigned a seat. While the draft people were coming to people's homes on the weekend, grabbing them and taking them and sticking them in the war. And many of the people who were grabbed on one weekend. You know, this was in the fall, the spring semester, when we come back, they would be back in school, sometimes missing fingers sometimes missing other body parts, they have gone to war get blown up-
SM: 56:40
Right.
LW: 57:36
and were sent right back home. So, the war was not something that was remote for me. Now, I guess you, the way you talk about watershed events and things changing. My evolution as a person was in the early (19)60s. I wanted to, my aspiration after high school was to go to West Point, become a paratrooper, and go over to Vietnam and kill Vietnamese. But the events, the civil rights protests, the business with, Muhammad Ali Lee, and just doing more and more reading, I became less and less enamored with that war. And my interest in, going to West Point and becoming a paratrooper just evaporated. When I graduated from high school, I had an opportunity to go to Annapolis, they wanted me to come down there and run track. But at that point, I was, you know, anti-war, anti-military. And I, wanted to direct my energies to changing [chuckles] or contributing to change versus being a part of supporting a status quo that I, I really did not like. So, yeah, the Vietnam War was definitely, definitely a big part of it. I remember the change when Stokely took over the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. I remember the rise of each wraparound, those were my heroes, King was not. I saw King at the time as, too conciliatory, to turn the other cheek. Really saw him, and I hate to say that now, because I have studied King a lot more and realized, you know, all of the contributions that he made, and the courage that it took to do what he did back then, it was at, well, he is not Malcolm X, you know. He wants to be too conciliatory; he was not a Black Panther. He was criticizing of the Black Panthers when they were just trying to stand up. And, you know, black berets and leather coats looked a lot cooler than, [laughs] a straw-hat walking down a road in Alabama getting beat by the, Alabama State Police.
SM: 57:36
Wow. Right.
LW: 1:00:02
Now, you know, I know a lot more about him and call it if. So, those events that you raised, or things that I was aware of, and a lot of my friends were aware of. And we were talking about him, and it is not like, you know, they were things just happen out there. And we are worried about, you know, what is the latest record coming from Motown? And can we afford to buy it at our friend's father's record store? But so, we were definitely aware of them. There were discussions in classes. We, I was in the upper bound programs, we were on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania, take, I mean not the University of Pennsylvania, University of Pittsburgh, Pitt, taking classes they were, you know, discussed there. But a lot of that stuff was, well, that is way over there. In terms of the Vietnam War, although many of our colleagues and close friends were in the war.
SM: 1:00:53
Yeah, everybody knows the history of Philadelphia with respect, I think it is Thomas Edison High School, the largest number of students that died in the Vietnam War-
LW: 1:01:03
Right-right.
SM: 1:01:03
-came from Thomas Edison High School. And I interviewed the former principal, and he told, his brother was one of those that was killed. What is really sad is the stories of a lot of those men that I think The Philadelphia Inquirer, I think, they did an unbelievable reportage, when the, the Vietnam memorial was built at Penn's Landing. You probably remember this, Linn, that newspaper, every single person who served, who died, they were all there, anybody was on that wall from Philly was on there, it was, I have five of them, I have given them to Binghamton University because it is such a historic thing. But the reasons why they went into that war, were as diverse as, you know, the people of America. Wanted to get, if somebody, one thought of these, you know, they could not get a job. They can do well, in the military, they can see the world, you know, the whole story there. And while it is Terry, while it is Terry, if he was alive, I certainly would have interviewed because one of his books, was a book on Bloods.
LW: 1:02:07
Yeah, I read that book.
SM: 1:02:09
It is in a Wallace and what he did, by risking his life, to be next to the soldiers who were African American, Vietnam is amazing story, as you well know. When you look at the, when you look at the battles fought in the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, over segregation, racism, sexism, equality, justice, peace, human rights, environmental concerns, homophobia, where did we fail? And where did we succeed, heavy? You know, I say this, because, you know, my advisor at Ohio State was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, if you want to listen to him, I interviewed him. And he is one of my interviews, he was the man outside of my parents who had the greatest influence on my life. He was an African American PhD at the age of twenty-nine, at Ohio State University.
LW: 1:03:03
Oh, my goodness.
SM: 1:03:04
And, when I was scheduled to start in the fall of 19- (19)70, it was (19)71. And I ended up going there, I broke my arm. And I ended up getting, going a semester later, and I bite because of that, I had the chance to have Dr. Johnson as my advisor. I can tell you, we sat in the office talking about the issue of between African Americans and white Americans, for hours and hours and hours, our program was geared toward that. It was to, geared toward encounter trying to understand, trying to listen to what other people felt not knowing that we are not in their shoes. But, to at least listen. And I, asked this question kind of in honor of Dr. Johnson, because Dr. Johnson's, we always said, you know, you know, "Do, do your part, play your role in making this a better world for everyone. And speak up when you have to," even if there is a risk in speaking up, if you see injustice, and he passed away in 2015, and now I cannot talk to him about how he would feel about where we are in 2021. I think he would be disappointed. Your thoughts on-on all of these things here. Why are we taking one step forward and two step backwards in 2020 and 2021? That is what I am feeling it. And I do not know, if I am the only one.
LW: 1:04:29
Well, the one step forward and two step backwards is not something unique to our time period. In the, now 21st century. It has always been, the modus operandi of America. And that is something that because we do not, because we do not do enough to really learn the true history, as, what was it, George Santiago's said, " Those who do not learn from history essentially are doomed to repeat it." The March on Washington that everybody lodged in applause. Now, Dr. King says during oratory, "I have a dream." While those who are yelling, we need to focus on the "I Have a Dream," you know, particularly now those who are against critical race theory, like that is taught in elementary schools or the sixteen nineteen project, They, they are either willfully ignorant, or willfully deceptive of the fact that before Dr. King articulated his dream, he delineated a nightmare in America. He talked about voter suppression. He talked about income inequality. He talked about housing deprivation, he talked about health care, and he talked about police brutality. In fact, he criticized police brutality, twice in that speech. And what is forgotten about that event in August of 1963, is that the person who put that protest march together that program, a Philip Randolph, a black labor leader, had actually set that protest to take place during 1943. Over the same issues, but the President of the United States at the time, intervened and asked him to hold off, because the country was at war against Japanese imperialism, and German fascism. And he did not want, to have a dismissiveness in America. But those issues, were still there. So, when we talk about the civil rights movement, the civil rights movement was the civil rights movement of the (19)60s. It was not the only one. So, the, the one step forward, two steps back that you referenced, and rightfully, we can see that happening. After the Civil War, what happened after the Civil War, there was supposedly this, period of reconstruction. And, let me just give you one example. I do not want to get too deep into history. But, after the Civil War, the Congress under the leadership of a, Pennsylvania Congressman, I think was Thaddeus Stevens, Congress passed a law that said that all former slaves were entitled to one hundred acres of land. And if they pay nominal rent on this land for five years, they would have ownership of that land. Okay. It, it was not, I am sorry, it was not one hundred acres, it was 40 acres. It was not forty acres and a mule. The 40 acres and a mule was a field order that a Union General gave for a small section of Georgia, this law would have given ex-slaves 40 acres, at nominal rent, it was not giving them anything, at nominal rent. The, then President, the person who succeeded Lincoln after he was assassinated, Andrew Johnson wrote a very venomous veto of this bill, saying, in essence, not in essence, but saying in fact that it would be unfair to white people to give this opportunity to former slaves to be able to rent land. Now, the duplicity there is that years, about three years before that, Congress passed what was called the Homestead Act, which gave persons one hundred acres of land for free, out west, but Blacks were barred from doing it. So, here we have the president of the United States saying that Black people cannot even have the opportunity to rent land for five years to get it. At the same time, that any white person in America or any white immigrant who came in America had an opportunity to get one hundred acres of free land. And so, we see these disparities from time and time and time again. In 1799, a group of black Philadelphians sent a petition to Congress, and at the time Congress was meeting in Philadelphia, right in Independence Hall, George Washington was living one block away in a rented mansion as president, at 16 Market Street. And that, petition said or requested two things. One, that there will be a gradual abolition of slavery, not an immediate end to it, a gradual abolition of slavery. And the person said that, you know, implement this gradual abolition of slavery and we, the Black community would take the lead in doing what was needed to do to help our brothers make the transition from slave to free. But they also asked for something else. They asked for protection under federal law to prevent the kidnapping of free Blacks and sending them back to slavery. You remember the, you remember the movie that won an Academy Award in 2013, "Twelve Years a Slave." "Twelve Years A Slave" was based on a book that was written for a guy named Solomon Northrup, who was a free black concert pianist who was kidnapped and held in slavery for 12 years. That happened in the, his book came out in the 1850s. So, if Congress had responded to this tax paying, free black citizens of the United States, in 1799, the likelihood of Solomon Northrup being, literally kidnapped would have been lessened severely. And thus, you know, we would have had a movie on, Solomon Northrop in the 2000s. Now, that petition was debated a little bit by Congress. And Congress ultimately said, "Well, look, we have no power to change slavery because it is the law." Okay, so this critical race theory alone is saying, well, there is nothing about racism and a law, racism is embedded at the very soul of the law in America. One congressman wins that debate. And if you go into the Congressional Record, I got a copy. You see where there was a congressman from South Carolina, I think his name was Whelan. He got up and said, you know, these people are asking us to do something that the law forbids us from doing, we cannot do anything about slavery because it is in the Constitution. And furthermore, furthermore, we should table this petition, because it was not written by black people because everybody knows that negros cannot write. Now, this petition was put together primarily by two people. One a guy named Richard Allen, the founder of the AME Church in Philadelphia that became a denomination around the world. And another minister named Absalom Jones, who founded perhaps the first black church, St. Thomas Episcopal Church. Now the irony here, Steve, is that Absalom Jones was the primary author of the 1799 petition. Absalom Jones had authored a petition that was sent to Congress in 1797, on behalf of some free blacks who were run out of North Carolina, and the petition is so, and it talks about the experience of these people who were chased out of the state, chased off the land they would own, by giant massive dogs that were unleashed by our fellow citizens on us. And Congress refused to deal with that event, in fact, James Madison, the father of the 1st and 15th of the Bill of Rights, got up and said that the petitioners have no right to come before Congress, they need to take it before the state government. And we are sure that the state government will look favorably upon their petition when they were run out of state and the state government did not do anything for them. And that would have been 1797, in four years, well, three years before that, Absalom Jones and Richard Allen wrote a pamphlet to rebut racist accounts of what black people did in the 1793, yellow fever epidemic, where they served as nurses to the persons who were sick and bury the dead. That critique that they wrote was the first criticism of racism in the media that took place in the United States. They wrote it. Yet in 1799, you had a congressman from South Carolina, who said that we should not consider the petition that was filed in 1799 because black people couldn't write. And you remember, during President Obama's first term, I think it was his first or second State of the Union address. One congressman got up and said, "You lie," and walked and stormed out of the, The Chamber. He was a congressman from South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina. So here, 1799 ignorance from somebody from South Carolina, and then in 2000 something ignorance from somebody from South Carolina. So, there is a circularity to this ignorance that breeds racism but a racism that breeds ignorance. And that is what America is. So, when we talk about one step forward, and two steps back, that has been the American dance since it is very inception.
SM: 1:10:39
Yes.
LW: 1:10:40
Yeah, you know, Linn, again, a beautiful description of all these years here. It is, something is happening in America today. We knew that in the, in the (19)60s and (19)70s, you know, it was a rough time, in many areas and movements and everything. But there is something about right now. I mean, not, I do not even have to talk about the pandemic. I am talking about right now in America, in the last I can, I do not even know what it is, 10 years. And of course, many people can say, well, it. The reason is, though, you see a part of the American now that elected Donald Trump. You know, it is about well, we want to go back to the way it was. And when I hear that, I said, "What are you talking about the way it was?" And I do not know, I talked with my peers. There is a lot of confusion here. And it is, a very disturbing time we are living in. Yes, it is.
SM: 1:15:51
And I do not know, I cannot believe that after all we have been through in our history. And from all ethnic backgrounds that we have not got, have not gotten farther than we are, even though we have gone quite a way. How anyone, how anyone can ever feel that they are better than someone else has disturbed me from the day I was 10 years old. And, and, and I sense that there is so many Americans who feel that they are better. Whether it be because of their skin color, their religion, their politics, you know, sexual orientation, gender, I mean, this, it is disturbing.
LW: 1:17:21
It is, but it is one of these things that America, and Americans have not learned from American history. And that is in large part because history is not taught properly. There is an African proverb that says that "Until lions, have historians, the hunters will always be heroes." And this, there has been a fight, a resistance to learning the true history of America, the black history of America, the Native American history, one of the, more intriguing things that museums that I have ever been in, and I have been in museums all around the world, when I travel always wanted to go to museums and learn about, you know, their respective countries. So, the British Museum, the Louvre, you know, museums in Venice, the apartheid Museum in Johannesburg, South Africa. But I went to the, there was a Cherokee, up in the Cherokee reservation right outside of Asheville, North Carolina, and went through their museum and saw the, just devastation that was wrought against them and went through the Native American museum down in Washington, D.C. And so, you get the real sense of what is going on. But what I am trying to say, in terms of not knowing history, in the 1890s, there was a severe recession in the country. And something happened during that recession. And particularly in the south, it was poor whites and poor Black farmers, and just workers started looking at each other and say, "Wait a minute, you are Black, I am white, but we are, we have something in common. We are both dirt poor." And who is keeping us dirt poor? It is not rich blacks, because there is none of them, it is these industrialists and these cooperatives and these elite. So, they started coming together and forming political movements. And there was a crack back, that was unbelievable. And that is when you start having these, Jim Crow laws started, you know, ramping up, and I saw where somebody gave a famous writer, gave a description saying that Jim Crow instilled in the heart of a poor white man that he was better In the black man because he did not have to sit on the same toilet, despite the fact that the are both still poor. And he started getting this separate but equal legislation.
SM: 1:20:11
Right.
LW: 1:20:11
So where, where did separate but equal really become a shrine in the, in the U.S.? It started in Louisiana, a guy challenged, being discriminated against on streetcars. The governor of the state at the time, was elected in terms of because he promised to help desegregate facilities. He later became a member of the Louisiana Supreme Court. And he upheld the separate but equal law. And then, that went up to the United States. And that was the 1896 Plessy vs. Ferguson ruling. The ruling said, yes, the 14th amendment and the 15th Amendment said that they were supposed to be equality under the law. But, in the scheme of things that was never intended. It was never intended to give Black people social equality and just, just possibly political equality. And then they had the nerve to say that if, if anybody feels that this rule, essentially everybody feels this ruling is racist, then that is their misinterpretation of it. What the heck do you mean that you are now creating a caste system baked into the law? And then you are saying that it is not racist. But let us remember, roll it back to, when was it, 1857, when the Supreme Court did the Dred Scott ruling. And in that ruling, there was this declaration that the Black man has no rights that the white man is bound to respect. And in that ruling, the judge who did it, a guy named Tony, wrote that we, essentially, we Americans are not being racist, because what we are just now solidifying in law was something from Britain, that there was the Brits. You know, essentially, the Brits are the most racist people on Earth. We are just following what they are doing. So do not blame us. Blame the Brits. this is in the ruling. So, there has always been this notion in America that no, we are not racist. We will not accept any responsibility, or accountability for our racism. And we will blame it on everybody else. So now, you have this attack, these attacks on critical race theory. And they are saying that, you know, we want to make sure that nobody thinks that they are better than anybody else. And why do not you follow the dictates of Martin Luther King, to be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skin, but again forgetting the nightmare that, that came delineated. Let us look at North Carolina, North Carolina in 2021, one of the most preeminent and award-winning journalists of this era, Hannah Nicole Jones, gets an appointment at the University of North Carolina's Chapel Hill, their journalism program, one of the preeminent programs in the country. She is a graduate of that program. However, because she authored the sixteen nineteen projects for the New York Times that won a Pulitzer Prize. She was denied tenure. Now, every person that had taken that position that she was assigned, had received tenure upon hire. But the trustees said that cause since she is going into an academic position, we are not sure of her academic credentials, and-and they held this thing on for almost a year. It took public pressure for them to finally grant her tenure. But at that point, she was so frustrated and exasperated, she decided to go to Howard University. And in the meantime, she was able to raise $25 million. So she went to Howard, with a $25 million contribution to create a whole new center there. Now why I bring up her example is just to show you a clear in black and white example of contemporary racism. But there is a historical, there is some historical roots for this. The only successful insurrection in the United States where a government was overthrown and no one came in to do anything about it took place in Wilmington, North Carolina in November of 1898. A former congressman who was a Confederate Army Colonel led a white mob, and they overthrew the city government of Wilmington. And that government, there was I think, ten members of city council, of whom two were black, and in The White Declaration of Independence that the insurrection is issued. Yes, it was literally called, " The White Declaration of Independence." It said that they were no, they would never ever be governed by Black people, that Black people could not work that Black people couldn't live in the city. They could not do this. They could not do that. I mean, it was clearly white supremacy in racism. But what I am bringing this up to show one of the many examples is that when they started their coup d'etat, and they were on their way to march to City Hall to run the people out of City Hall, the first target of the racist insurrectionists, was the Black newspaper in that town. They burned the building to the ground. And they ran the editor out of town, he ended up coming to Philadelphia. And as it turns out, he ended up founding one of the first, one of the larger civil rights groups in the city. But why did they attack this guy's newspaper and burn it down? And by the way, that was the only black owned daily newspaper in the entirety of the United States, at that time, 1898. Well, this, publisher, editor had editorialized against lynching. Newspapers and politicians, and everybody down in North Carolina, and all across the South were very much in favor of lynching. He said it was wrong. And because of that, he initiated the hire of these races, and they burned the place down. The governor of North Carolina at the time, and the U.S. president refused to send the National Guard and to, unequal the rebellion. And because they did not do that, those who are part of that racist mob, became the leaders of Wilmington. That is the only successful insurrection in U.S. history. So, we have the journalists in 2021, being singled out because of racism. And we have a journalist in 1898, being singled out because of racism, and is both in North Carolina. And that is just one example. And then I could give you an example, example, example, example. All across the country of this, you know, time and time again. Of the very inception of this country.
SM: 1:27:26
I think, I think that- I think Dr. Harry Edwards was, had some issues when he was at Berkeley.
LW: 1:27:34
Oh yeah, definitely.
SM: 1:27:36
Because he had been, he had been writing some of the, [inaudible] Black students. He wrote some great, great books. He was, massive numbers of articles and magazines, and he was not getting tenure. I mean, come on. And so [crosstalk] go ahead.
LW: 1:27:53
When I went up for Temple, when I went up for tenure, the president of the university tried to, to stop it. The president of Temple University tried to stop it. "You are just a journalist," this is what he sneered at me one day. "You are just a journalist."
SM: 1:28:09
Which president was that?
LW: 1:28:12
A guy named Adam Manny.
SM: 1:28:13
Okay, yeah. Okay. Very good.
LW: 1:28:15
Yeah-yeah. And what they were, what they say it is, you know, "Yes, you. Yes. In the six years that you have been here you published five thousand newspaper articles, 5000 newspaper articles, in addition to teaching, but you have not been published in a scholarly journal," while I was under the practice track, not the scholarly track. And they said, "Well, you were supposed to be under the scholarly track," I said, "No, I was not. This is what they told me to do. And I did that." And so, they said, "Well, there was a letter that was sent from your department chair, to the then dean, that said that you could either be a scholar or a practitioner." Two things: number one, I never saw that letter. Never ever saw it. It was not even sent to me or supposed to be sent to me. And number two, the letter that they are citing the saying that I am not entitled to tenure, because I did not do the scholarly track. Say that Professor Washington could do scholar or practice. So, when I found out about that, I dusted off my old year law school civil procedure books and had to give them a lesson on the meaning of either in or, and, and because of that, they backed up and backed off.
SM: 1:29:49
Right.
LW: 1:29:50
Yeah. I, my last year at the Philadelphia Daily News from (19)88 to (19)89. I left there in (19)89 and went to work for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. But I had a fellowship at the Yale Law School, they have a journalism fellowship program every year, they bring journalists in to give them a better understanding of the law. And I went to Yale Law School. So, I knew a little bit about the law. And also, when I came back to the Daily News, I was unqualified for promotion, despite having a master's degree from the Yale law school. And I left there, left the paper, and then went to work for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. For three years, I was a special assistant. And then by the time I get to Temple, you know, somehow, I am just a journalist. [laughs]
SM: 1:30:36
Wow, you, I know you are, I know [crosstalk]
LW: 1:30:41
Yeah, I am sorry, go ahead.
SM: 1:30:42
I know, you are much more than-than that having seen you in two programs at my former place of employment- you are you are indeed a scholar. And, and, and a great person that influences young people in a very positive way. And let me, just two final questions here. I, we had already you had already talked about the watershed moment of being in the 1968 Olympics. It is interesting that one of my latter questions was going to be activism and sports. I bring this up, because we brought Tommy Smith to our campus. So, I got a chance to know Tommy when he was at our school before I left, but when you think of Tommy Smith, and John Carlos, and the other athletes from that time you think of black power, and you think of the, that term empowerment but, but we have also heard from today's certainly with Kaepernick, and Harry Edwards has been a big writer on this, as well as a supporter for Kaepernick that, you know, when Kaepernick sat down at that football game, he did not say anything, he just sat down, he was making a statement toward police brutality, killings of black men, around America. That was his comment. He was not making any other comments. And I am amazed at how the media stared interpreting it from every direction. And that was not why he did it. But then it got into this big controversy that you know; athletes should never speak up. Athletes should be quiet, you know, shut up, you know, just like entertainers, entertainers, and athletes. You are not, you know, just be quiet. So your thoughts on what is going on, you know, between (19)68, and today, not only with the Kaepernick issue, but also the fact when people are talking about the protests of today, Black Lives Matter, all these new groups that they say, "We are the reincarnation of the (19)60s." Do you like when you hear that?
LW: 1:30:48
[laughs] Clear limits, let me just say this. Professor Harry Edwards was a part of the Olympic boycott movement. And it succeeded. He was one of the organizers in the intellectual, you know, spark plug for that in the months leading up to that, you know, he was holding meetings and conferences and negotiations, you know, trying to get all the athletes on board with it. So, he was a part of that. Let me jump forward to Colin Kaepernick, because [laughs] I wrote a chapter that is now in a book that came out last fall on critical race theory. Now, I am not a critical race theorist, and I am not a scholar, all right. Let me be clear on that. But one of the things that I brought out is how the media covered Kaepernick. Kaepernick was on the, the sideline, taking a knee, the first person that went to interview, Kaepernick was the first Black reporter that NFL, NFL Network had ever hired. He knew Kaepernick, you know, from covering, and he just went over, despite all the other reporters being there, and he went over, "Why you got on why are you on your knees?" Nobody even thought to go over talk to the guy. And he said, you know, Kaepernick said that he was making a, his own protest against police brutality and abusive policing. Now, what is more humbling than to take a knee? Did he stand up during the national anthem and put his hand in the air, not even with a Black power first, but with the middle finger? No, he took a knee. The coverage of that, as you rightfully said, just was way over the top, a mile wide but an inch thick because it provided no context. When they referenced Kaepernick talking about police brutality, they said he is complaining about the shooting in Ferguson or Michael Brown and the choking death of Eric Gardener in Staten Island, New York City. Of all of the thousands of articles in minutes, to hours of news coverage, no one, no one contextualized police brutality within San Francisco. August of 2016 is when Kaepernick did his thing in, April that year, the mayor of the city fired the police commissioner for the police commissioner's failure to address police brutality. That morning of the press conference where the mayor fired the police commissioner, the police shot and killed an unarmed woman in one of the Black communities. About a month and a half after that, the results from an investigation that was conducted by three judges in California, including a former member of California Supreme Court, they were looking at the issue of racist text messages and Facebook postings by members of the San Francisco Police. So, we have two major findings of substantive issues involving brutality in San Francisco, and no one connected any of that to Kaepernick. A month after, yeah, a month after Kaepernick took his knee, the U.S. Department of Justice issued their pattern and practice investigation into San Francisco police and condemned brutality in San Francisco, that was not connected. San Francisco is located across the bay from a town called Oakland, California. What happened in Oakland, California in 1966, an organization called the Black Panther Party for self-defense was formed to counter the police brutality in Oakland at that time. And the Black newspaper, or one of the black newspapers in San Francisco, who wrote an editorial in 1969, condemning police brutality. And they said that this had been a problem in San Francisco, going back 25 years. So that would have put it back in the late (19)40s. So, we have this decades long history of documented police brutality in San Francisco, and none, none of the news coverage of Kaepernick put that in there, not even a sentence, not even have an oblique reference to it. And, you know, just so we could, perhaps short circuit the, well, that is Colin Kaepernick and none of that would ever happen to him because he is a star, please. The report that the judges put out, had an examination of an incident that happened to San Francisco to a guy named Alexander Natto. He was Latino guy, law abiding, working, never doing anything wrong, walking to, walking through a park on his way to work. He worked as a security guard, he has a taser. He is eating a burrito, walking through a park on his way to work. Somebody in that gentrified neighborhood walking their dog sees a colored person, who he thinks has a gun and is menacing people, eating a burrito, because the police. The police arrived, and fifteen shots later, with the majority of the shots in the guy's back after he is on the ground. He is dead. But why do I bring this up in relation to Colin Kaepernick? Because Natto at the time, was wearing a brand-new NFL, store purchased, San Francisco forty-niners’ jacket and hat. So, he was shot in San Francisco, forty-niners gear. So, Kaepernick could have had the same fears that the officers, you know, an encounter with an officer he could have gotten killed. But again, contextually none of that was included in news coverage. And the Society of Professional Journalists ethics code urges journalists to always include context in their coverage. And this was something that would be, the Kerner Commission also emphasized in his 1968 report. Yet, in 2016, not a single reporter in the country sought to contextualize what is happening. What should I say, not a single reporter or coverage in mainstream media, because athletic media and alternative media did bring this up, but not the mainstream media.
SM: 1:39:58
Yeah, it is, it is a great analysis between (19)68 and 2020. Nothing is really changed. Nothing is really changed. And I think I am going to conclude the interview with you just to bring back about what you are doing today in your work as a professor of journalism at Temple. I know I saw your bio, and you are involved in a lot of different things there. Could you kind of just briefly describe the kinds of courses you are teaching, the kind of impact you think you are having on the future journalists of tomorrow, and, and then any projects you might be doing in the community?
LW: 1:40:41
Okay. Well, currently, I am teaching in the Journalism Department at Temple University, I always teach a writing course, I was a co-founder of their award-winning hyperlocal news site called "Philadelphianeighborhoods.com." It is a multimedia community-based reporting program. So, I do, teaching of basic reporting skills, and multimedia skills at the undergraduate level and the graduate level, I am primarily now teaching in the graduate program. I do a lot of what is called study aways. I have taken students to London three times, and the South Africa three times. The South Africa program has been the only study abroad program at Temple University that has ever won any awards. We have won awards every year that we have gone over there, including international awards. From the coverage of the students, we take them into the townships, we literally take them from the corporate suites at the top of buildings to, to caves and mines. So, they see a diversity there. That is what I do in terms of Temple University. Right now, I am involved in two book projects. One is looking at the 1985 moon bombing but looking at it primarily from the perspective of journalists of color who covered that event. And then, I am also involved in a book project related to Dr. Martin Luther King and his first protest that took place not in Montgomery, Alabama, but Maple Shade, New Jersey-
SM: 1:42:13
Wow.
LW: 1:42:13
-where he had a sit-in at a restaurant on June 12, 1950. This was Dr. King's first demonstration, his first sit-in against racism that led to his first lawsuit against racism. However, the Office of Historic Preservation in New Jersey, those who designate what should be historically recognized and what should not have determined that King's first protest, and his first lawsuit, and his first lawsuit was filed by the NAACP in New Jersey. And the person who was the president of the NAACP was the person who had lobbied for the passage of a civil rights law in New Jersey, a statewide, desegregation law, the first in the nation. Those are the people who helped Dr. King, yet the historic office in New Jersey says that it has a minimal historic importance. So, I am writing a book about this blue state bigotry, where these people can claim that Dr. Martin Luther King's first protest, and where he planned that protests in Camden, has no historic import
SM: 1:42:14
Oh my god.
LW: 1:42:18
These are the same, these are the same people who gave a historic designation to the house of the brother of the famous poet Walt Whitman, now Walt Whitman lived for a month in, in Camden. And he came there because that is where his brother was. But his brother did not achieve anything in life. I do not mean to say he did not achieve anything in life. But his claim to fame in life was just being the brother of Walt Whitman. He is not the transformative individual of Dr. Martin Luther King. So, we see, different shades of bigotry-
SM: 1:44:09
My gosh.
LW: 1:44:10
-denial of the recognition of Dr. Martin Luther King. So that is one of the projects that I am involved in. And other than that, I am just getting old. [laughter]
SM: 1:44:18
We all are. Yeah, I-I want to thank you for, and I apologize for the delay. And let me turn this out. Thank you very much. And I am going to turn the tape off right now. Thank you. Thank you, Linn.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Linn Washington
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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Date of Interview
2012-01-24
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Lise Funderburg
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lise Funderburg is an author, educator and editor. She went to school at Reed College and Columbia University School of Journalism. She has had publications at The Washington Post, the New York Times, The Nation, Salon and many more."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Lise Funderburg is an author, educator, and editor. She went to school at Reed College and Columbia University School of Journalism. She has had publications at the <em>Washington Post</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, <em>The Nation</em>, <em>Salon</em> and many more.</span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
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Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Drug culture; Racism; Culture wars; Race and Identity; Baby boom generation; WWII; Korean War; Welfare mentality; Drug culture; Watergate; Christian right; Great recession; Dr.Martin Luther King Jr.; Nineteen sixties; Equality movements; Vietnam Memorial; Vietnam Veterans."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Drug culture; Racism; Culture wars; Race and Identity; Baby boom generation; WWII; Korean War; Welfare mentality; Drug culture; Watergate; Christian right; Great recession; Dr.Martin Luther King Jr.; Nineteen sixties; Equality movements; Vietnam Memorial; Vietnam Veterans.</span>
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148:37
Subject LCSH
Authors; Educators; Editors; Funderburg, Lise--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Lise Funderburg
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 24 January 2012
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:08):
You are what we call a late-stage boomer, and I say this because the boomer generation is defined as people born in the years 1946 to 1964, and there is often, in my interviews, been a discrepancy in terms of impact over the events that transpired when boomers were young between those that were born between (19)46 and (19)56 and (19)56 and (19)64.
LF (00:00:35):
Sure.
SM (00:00:36):
However, my question here is, knowing this, do you personally identify yourself with the boomer generation, and if so, in what way?
LF (00:00:47):
I do not generally think of that label as being pertinent to me, although I have to admit that when I see characteristics of boomers in the media, there are times when I have to admit that they describe me. For example, the idea that everything that happens to me is being invented for the first time, that no one has ever gone through whatever my current stage of life is. It is like an amazing discovery. That applies to me and my peers, but I do not really identify with that label.
SM (00:01:46):
Yeah, it is interesting. One of the questions I have asked is do you like the term, period, in defining a group of people. Obviously it was linked toward the large numbers of babies being born after World War II for almost 18 years, as men and women came home from the war. Others say that it could be the Vietnam generation or the (19)60s generation or the movement generation, a lot of different terms, but they still identify because it is based on a large group of babies being born over a period of time. Is there another term that you feel would be more applicable to this group?
LF (00:02:27):
Well, your first question was do I like the label. I would say not particularly, because although its origins have a simple factual basis in referencing a spike in the population, like many labels of generations, it has come to be a shorthand that is generally, I think, pejorative. I think that is true of other ones, like how Generation X became better known for the limitations of the people in that group or the negative ways in which they interacted with society as opposed to something positive about them. Maybe one of the only exceptions to this that I can think of is... what was the group Tom Brokaw wrote about?
SM (00:03:29):
The Greatest Generation?
LF (00:03:32):
Yeah. That was a pretty positive label. I think that has pretty positive connotations, but generally boomers, that label connotes a kind of self-interestedness, a desire for luxury and comfort. While those may be true attributes for many of us born during that period, it is not a particularly positive one. I do think it is interesting to think about this generation. I mean, what is more pertinent to me now is a sub-category. I should also ask you, are you taping this?
SM (00:04:18):
Oh, yeah. I tape everything, and then eventually you will see it. I have got 250 transcripts.
LF (00:04:23):
Oh, sure.
SM (00:04:24):
Yeah. It is a long ordeal. I love it, though.
LF (00:04:27):
Right. I currently identify more with a subcategory, which is the sandwich generation, and that is an experience that other people have had in history where they are taking care of or have some level of dependence from the generation below as well as the generation above them, at the same time. Because of the numbers of boomers, it is a phenomenon that is changing our culture. That is an interesting thing about my boomer generation. Wherever you were born in it, you are part of a cohort that is so large that the life stages you are going through are more evident in the culture, and have more of an impact in the overall culture than other generations have.
SM (00:05:20):
Given the long-view perspective over time, what are your overall feelings on this generation? We do not even have to call it boomer, but this generation. Things you admire or things you do not admire, characteristics you like or dislike?
LF (00:05:40):
Well, I guess my feeling about that is in contrast with generations that have come before and after. For example, I think that what I like about a lot of people my age is a combination of idealism and pragmatism. Again, that might just be that we are in our (19)50s and (19)60s now, and that is when you become more pragmatic in life. I think that maybe, particularly having lived through the protest and social justice movements of the (19)60s and (19)70s, many of us retain a kind of hopefulness that has perhaps been tempered by the years, but persists, and I am comfortable with that. Again, that may be because that is what I know, so I like that about my generation. I also think that we are permitted to have that kind of an outlook and that kind of hopefulness in part because of the sacrifices the generation before us made to, whatever, get us into the middle class, to get us through some big wars, World War II and the Korean War. I think it is partly we are afforded that ability to be optimistic and hopeful because of the sacrifices made by our parents and grandparents, but also, we did not grow up under the dark, dark clouds that the generations after us have grown up under. There might have been the atom bomb, the Cold War, but not AIDS and not, for Americans, the Twin Towers, and no other globally frightening questions of who can make nuclear bombs. Weapons of mass destruction, real or imagined, were not as pervasive when I was a child. There were freedoms just in lifestyle. The over attended child now, that looks horrible to me, parents who are trying to give their children the best, but over program them and are constantly involved with them. I look back and I relish that I had a childhood where my parents were not always paying attention, so that I could have the life of a child with other children. Even though we lived in an urban environment that had crime, it just felt so much safer. I see kids today living with more fear.
SM (00:08:55):
Those are very good points. Over I would say the past maybe decade or two decades, a lot of the critics of the boomer generation have said that many of the problems we face today in this country, including those right here in 2012, we can go right back to that generation and blame that generation somewhat for the problems we face. Of course, the critics say the drug culture, the welfare mentality, where it is a handout over individual responsibility, a decline in church and synagogue attendance, where people left religion and went into more inner spirituality, a breakup of the family, the increase in the divorce rate, the lack of respect for law and order, lack of respect for authority because so many leaders lied to them when they were young or witnessed it nationally. A whole lot of things. Even some people that criticize the generation say remember on college campuses when college students would make a demand, and if all the demands were met, they would make more demands. They would be absolutely sure that the demands would never be met. It is an, "I want it now," mentality, and so that is some of the financial problems we face in the generation, directly related to that attitude of spending now and worrying about how to pay for it later. When you look at all these criticisms of the generation, some of them could be directly related to what we call the culture wars today too, so just your thoughts on these people that criticize this generation for a lot of the problems we face today in America.
LF (00:10:44):
I am sure there is some validity to those critiques, but I am not sure that it is appropriate to hang the blame solely on the door of baby boomers, but in fact maybe it is more of an American epidemic, part of the broader culture, up and down across generations and classes. It is hard for me to find a kind of across-the-board validity to critiques like that because we are such a diverse people, even inside of this generation. To pick out one of those critiques you listed, these people critiquing baby boomers for the fall of social order through something like an abandonment of organized religion, organized religion seems to me not an absolutely good thing, as evidenced by pedophilic scandals in the Catholic Church. Or in the South and in terms of race, which is a topic I am more familiar with, the usage of the Church to justify the sanction and further the cause of racial bigotry and to perpetuate an unjust order of Jim Crow, that was in the house of organized religion. Perhaps some of the turning away from such places was to an attempt to keep close to God, but not the deeply flawed behaviors of the people practicing in His name.
SM (00:13:14):
When I was on a college campus, I know this was an attitude many young people had in the late (19)60s through the mid (19)70s, and that was that we can be the change agents for the betterment of society. There was a feeling that the world was going to change for the better, that eventually because of this generation, war would end, peace would come, racism, sexism, homophobia, all the structure of the environment, all these ills would be corrected by these 74 million young people. As time goes on, critics will say... again, critics; you cannot generalize everyone because many people have done good things... that war has continued, all the -isms have continued. There have been improvements in many ways, but as some people say, we take one step forward and two steps backward many times. What we are seeing here is this attitude that many within the generation, that they were going to be the change agent for the benefit of society, that they have miserably failed. Your thoughts? That is another general criticism, but progress has been made in so many areas for people if you look at the 1950s and 2012, but then you see these terrible individual instances. You have raised a couple of them already in your remarks.
LF (00:14:43):
Once again, I think to place on any group of people the responsibility to cure all of society's ills is an awfully heavy burden to carry. Whoever expected that maybe needed a sort of realistic adjustment, some adjustment in their outlook, to expect that. Again, because one of my areas of professional focus is race and race relations, I have often said that many people place a parallel expectation on mixed-race people, that they are the hope for a future without racial animosity, and that is such an unrealistic expectation. On the one hand, I think that is a highly unrealistic expectation, and it is a superficial expectation too. It does not allow for the complexity of who we all are as people, and also how our identities are overdetermined by the circumstances around us. In other words, we are made up of so many different components of influence, whether it is our generation, as you are interested in, and what that means, our place on the timeline of history, what came before and what comes after, our gender, our religion, our geography. In this country, it makes such a huge difference whether you are born and raised in a city, suburb or rural environment, in the Northwest, in the Southeast, in the Northeast. The composition of the area around you, the personalities and convictions of the people who raise you and the people on the street in which you grew up, the kind of education you have, the amount of education you have, and on and on and on. You can put 10 people in a room who seemingly have so much in common and you will find as much, if not more, that they do not have in common. Therefore, expecting that group of people to all behave in a certain way or fulfill a certain goal I think is unrealistic. On the other hand, I would say that not only is it unrealistic to expect a particular generation to take on such a large burden, but I think it is also unrealistic to expect anyone to be able to solve such enormous, profound, entrenched problems essentially overnight, in one generation. I mean, look at slavery. We are nowhere near where we should be in this country in terms of racial and social justice and equality, I think. We still have a tremendously far way to go. If I were to only look at that, I would not be able to get out of bed every day. It is too bleak to only look that way. If I also look at where we have come from in just a handful of generations, then that gives me some hope that there has been progress, which is now the time when I would trot out Obama.
SM (00:18:35):
Yeah. I have a question on him later, but you can talk about him, because you are talking about, first off, the first African American, but he is biracial.
LF (00:18:43):
Yes, he is.
SM (00:18:48):
Just your thoughts on how he has been treated in America, in terms of not only race but biracially.
LF (00:19:00):
Well, that is a big question. I think that he has been put on a pedestal by some people and expected to be the messiah for Black people particularly, but also other people who feel that they have not historically been allowed to play on a level playing field in this country. I think that he has raised the knap of racism that had been smoothed over in certain areas, acts of racism, especially in a polite society. Not people with swastikas tattooed on their foreheads, lynching someone, but instead in say the halls of Congress or the Senate chambers. Maybe we are a less civil society in general, but the idea that a representative, a government representative, would shout out, "You lie," to a president was inconceivable to me. Does that have something to do with race and a feeling of not needing to respect someone? I do not know the man who shouted that well enough, but that is one example of a way in which I think Obama has not been accorded the respect that a white person in his position would have. Meanwhile, though, of course, people said horrible things. Progressive Democrats, liberals, said horrible things about George Bush, the second Bush. It is hard to know when it is just horrible behavior and when it is horrible racist behavior. It is very hard to identify it, to separate them. As far as a biracial president, it gives me a great pleasure to see him in office for many reasons, some of them having to do with his actual capacity to serve, but in an iconic way to see a Black president and to see a biracial president. To me, he is both of those things, which is not how some Black and biracial people feel, who would have him choose.
SM (00:21:57):
What is interesting about President Obama is that one little note, that he has really wanted to separate himself from the (19)60s generation. Oftentimes he says, "I am not a part of the (19)60s generation," but he is in terms of years. He falls within that boomer generation. He was two years old, so I think he was born in (19)62 or (19)61, in that particular area. He does fall into that area, but he is tried to disassociate himself from the (19)60s, yet his critics say he is the reincarnation of the (19)60s. It seems like an oxymoron at times.
LF (00:22:37):
What is it about the (19)60s that he is trying to divorce himself from, do those critics say?
SM (00:22:42):
Well, I do not know. I just know early on I saw him on television. He has said several times, "I am not part of the (19)60s generation," and probably because he was two years old, but then he does not go on any further. You read articles in magazines, how he tries to separate himself from that period, which was the period of activism, the period of the movements and everything. Then his critics say he is the reincarnation of the (19)60s, the more progressive, way to the left. It is part of the culture wars, almost, that we are seeing today.
LF (00:23:28):
Well, I am not familiar enough with that criticism, I guess, to really have a way to comment on that.
SM (00:23:35):
This gets right into that. How did you become who you are in terms of your growing-up years? What were your early influences, some of the mentors, the role models that influenced you as a young person? I know you have written a new book, and I know your father is a very important part of this, but what were your high school years like and your college years, before you started your professional career as a writer? What was it like... and I know that I am saying a lot here... growing up as a biracial female in the (19)60s and (19)70s?
LF (00:24:09):
Well, I was just a little kid in the (19)60s. I was not 10 until 1969. I do not know how much I looked outside of myself for models, but of course, my mother and my father were big models for me. The neighborhood they chose to raise me and my sisters in was really significant in my developing outlook of the world. They chose a very rare situation, which was a stable integrated neighborhood. I make note of it being stable because there are a lot of neighborhoods that go through, say, a gentrification process, and halfway through, or the old neighborhoods that went through white flight, there was a point at which it looked like it was the 50/50 neighborhood of two races, but it was really just in the midst of a transition. This neighborhood my parents chose to raise me and my two sisters in in Philadelphia was... well, I considered it a tremendous gift they gave us to live in a microcosm of possibility, which is to say that we were able to live in a neighborhood that was by no means perfect... again, there are always humans involved when you are talking about people, which means that no one is perfect and everyone is complicated... but to grow up in a neighborhood where it was normal to be around people who were different was both a sense of possibility of what the world could be like, and it was an affirmation and a reinforcement of the normalcy of my own immediate family. I had a Black side of the family and a white side of the family, and they were all equally my cousins and uncles and aunts and grandparents, but that was a very rare image in the world around me. That has changed significantly, probably because of a lot of the boomers. It would be interesting to look at the particular rates of intermarriage and how much it spiked with the boomers, but there were not that many images around when I was growing up. It was an epiphany for me to watch the ship...
SM (00:26:51):
Still there? Hello? Oops.
LF (00:26:58):
Where did you lose me?
SM (00:26:58):
Well, you were talking about your parents and growing up, being a biracial person in your early years.
LF (00:27:09):
Had I gotten to the neighborhood?
SM (00:27:10):
Yes. You were starting to talk about your neighborhood.
LF (00:27:13):
Okay. It was a tremendous gift and sense of possibility to grow up in a neighborhood where it was normal to interact with people who were different, who looked different, came from different backgrounds. That was not only a sense of possibility of what the world could be like, which was very unusual then, and in terms of residential integration is still highly unusual in this country, but it was also a reaffirmation of my own family and the normalcy of that. Having a Black set of cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents and a white set was my reality and my normal, but it was very unusual in much of the world around me. In this neighborhood, that did not seem so strange. I remember as a kid watching the show, The Jeffersons. Had I gotten to that part?
SM (00:28:20):
No.
LF (00:28:21):
Okay. I did not love the main character, George Jefferson, and so did not enjoy the basic humor of the show, but it was an epiphany for me that there was a character on the show who was biracial, the son of the upstairs neighbors, who looked like I did, which is unusual even for a mixed-race person in that I look very, very... well, I look white. Typically it is often hard for people to see or believe, in fact, that my father was Black. That was a powerful sense of who I was. The writer Paule Marshall said once you see yourself depicted in the world, you have a sense of your right to be in the world. Once you see yourself truthfully depicted, you have a sense of your right to be in the world. There were exceptions like that that I looked for, that would speak to my reality. Maybe in a way, perhaps there is a way in which people like me were outliers to our own generation, because we had some significant experience or piece of our identity that gave us a different vantage point, forced it upon us by birth. Also I think of that as a great advantage, that I know what it is like to be on the outside looking in as much as I know what it is like to be on the inside looking out. I actually think that that is one of our presidene strengths.
LF (00:30:03):
I actually think that that is one of our president's strengths, which may well have come from that shared experience.
SM (00:30:11):
One thing that when your parents, when you were very young, did your parents ever sit down with you? Your neighborhood may have been different obviously than what was happening in the South. And I am not sure where your parents grew up themselves, but did your parents ever talk to you about the fact that in the 1950s, if you were, I think mixed marriages were even a crime in the South. And of course, we all know what happened to Emmett Till for just simply whistling at a white girl. He ended up being murdered, thrown in the river, the hatred in the south between a black male and a white female and all these other things, that southern mentality. And then here few years later, what it was like for your parents to even grow up and to be living during that time, even before you were born.
LF (00:31:03):
Well, my father was from rural Georgia.
SM (00:31:06):
Oh wow.
LF (00:31:07):
From a part of a neighborhood called Colored Folks Hill. So he knew all too well about what was happening in the south and where racial violence could go. My mother was from Chicago and was less familiar with that. When my parents decided to get married, my father went to the library, they met in Philadelphia, and my father went to the library to look up the laws because he knew it was illegal in many states to be married. I think there were still 17 states that had laws on the books the year my parents married, which was 1955, and they were not completely eliminated until 1967, in the case of this famous couple, Loving, whose last name happened to be Loving, L-O-V-I-N-G. And I think their case went to the Supreme Court and was Loving versus Virginia. So my father was much more aware of racial issues and concerns than my mother, which is not uncommon for who was white. I mean, it is not surprising given that she was white and did not need to know a lot of those things, and he was black and had to know them in order to survive. That said, neither one of them had, I think there was not much of a vocabulary for talking about issues of race and identity then in the way that there is now. There were not identity politics, there was not such a self-consciousness either celebratory or self-denigrating about identity in the public sphere. There were not these public conversations the way there are now. And my mother tells a story that in her own effort to somehow bring more black culture into our home, because my dad, I do not know, I guess she felt that my dad was not perhaps doing enough of it. She suggested that we subscribe to Ebony and Jet. And my dad just laughed and that was the end of that conversation. But we did know my parents were pretty active. I think they were more involved in the (19)60s and (19)70s politically than I could ever claim to be.
SM (00:33:50):
Hold on one second. I [inaudible] change this one tape player here. Hold on a second. Almost there. Okay. All right. Go ahead.
LF (00:33:57):
And were very upfront and honest about what was happening in the news. So we were not unaware of racial issues when we were growing up. So they did not really talk about it. And I think one of my sisters may have asked my dad once what she should fill out on a form that gave her the options of black, white, other. And I think that he said she should fill out other. But we were pretty much left to our own devices in terms of figuring out what we wanted [inaudible] or how to think about our racial mix. But again, they more than words, they gave experience of living in this neighborhood, which in the end I think had much more power than any talks might have and really, really shaped my view of the world.
SM (00:35:00):
Now, this neighborhood is where?
LF (00:35:02):
It is in Philadelphia, it is called Powelton.
SM (00:35:04):
Oh, I know that, yes. And this is kind of a follow up to this question, but it is no longer, I will just read this and make sure I get it correct. The Civil Rights Movement in the (19)50s and (19)60s and (19)70s centered on equality for African Americans. Could you describe the confusion and or lack of insight that most people of that time had for biracial Americans? And I want to follow this up with the following statement, that the African American community and the white community both agreed at one time that this concept of the one drop of blood meant that you were black, not white. Am I correct on this? And what findings in your book, Black, White, and Other, did your family and many others of the people that you interviewed for the book feel about this?
LF (00:35:58):
I would say that this notion of the one drop rule, which is also, I believe it is called hypo dissent, that a particular race will trump another race no matter how much or little of it you have in you persists to this day. So many people, black, white, and mixed, feel that that is true. That if you are part black, you are black. And some of that comes from the history of where mixed race people found a home. They were relegated to the black community. And the black community, either by choice or without choice, puts them in. Now, I think the way that people identify is so complicated, but a lot of people choose their identity based on how they look to the world and how they are treated. Most biracial, black, white people are brown-skinned. So they are treated in the way that much of our society acts upon race, which is based on your surface. So for a lot of people, it is just easier. There is nothing bad or good about it necessarily. So that is where they identify. Other people have different layers of identity that are sort of a public identity versus a private identity. A recognition that people respond to us out in the world in one way, but we may feel a different way in our experience and our chosen association. But mostly I think what is most important to think about is that race is a made-up concept, does not actually exist. It is a social construct by and large, which is why the US Bureau of the Census has changed its definitions of race over the years, many, many times over, who is white and who is not. So what I found most liberating in the research for Black, White, Other was that what had long been pathologized by social scientists was actually really healthy. So that is to say the truth for a lot of biracial mixed race people is that they feel different ways and different sort of pieces of their identity in different contexts in the world. When you say it that way, that is not surprising to anyone. If you are, let us say Greek and Jewish, you might feel more Jewish during the High Holy Days and more Greek when you go visit that Greek neighborhood in Chicago that serves food just like your grandmother made. So how is that any different from these cultural associations with black and white? I think it is not. But it used to be seen by psychologists and social scientists as a kind of unhealthy inability to choose a kind of sitting on the fence, an inability to resolve your innermost identity. And what I would say I found in working on Black, White, Other, and what is increasingly accepted in the social sciences and psychological communities is that identity is more plastic. It is flexible. The truth of our identities is that they wax and wane of the pieces of our identity. And I think for biracial people, that is just more exaggerated than it is for everyone else. But everyone has some experience with that. You are more political in one context. You are more an identified with being a man in one context, you are more identified with being someone's son versus being someone's father.
SM (00:40:04):
It is like when in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, if you were a college student, you filled in, you were African American or Latino American, Native American or Asian American, or white, depending on the background. But working in the university in the 1990s, when you came to visit our school, particularly in the early part of this century, the first 10 years, students were confused. I remember students coming in filling out forms on, well, wait a minute, I am Latino, but my parents are white and Latino. Should I put Latino or other? And they were actually going to the vice President of student affairs and asking for a clarification because a lot of them identified as Latino, but they really want to put other because they are proud of their white heritage too.
LF (00:40:53):
Right.
SM (00:40:54):
So I see a difference. There seems to be clear cut back in the boomers, but today with the children and the grandchildren, it seems to, it goes to a lot of different ways.
LF (00:41:06):
Well, I do not think there was a choice. There was no choice before. There was no sort of critical mass of a mixed experience. And it has grown to the point where people are finding their voices. And it is also less threatening than it used to be. I mean, you were literally taking your life into your hands. If you tried to stand up as a black, white, biracial person in a lot of situations and say, "Oh, no, no, I am half white. I am as white as I am black." That just was not going to fly.
SM (00:41:42):
We might be seeing some of these experiences you went through is now expanding into the areas between Jewish and Arab Americans. Because I am seeing a lot of the universities a-a microcosm of society, you probably see it at Penn, and I see it at Westchester when I was there, is that if a guy falls in love with a girl and vice versa, or even in a same sex relationship, I tell you, I am seeing more others than I am straight white, straight black. I am amazed at the relationships that are really forming today in society, which to me is a positive. And I think it is good. And I think if there is anything that can really heal our nation in so many different ways, it is the category of other where we appreciate the backgrounds of all Americans because that is the dream of what America is truly about. And Dee, do you know what percentage of African Americans or white Americans were biracial at say, in (19)68 as opposed to 2012?
LF (00:42:43):
I do not.
SM (00:42:46):
Okay. And when one thinks about that, 74 million, you have [inaudible] and wonder about the numbers within the group who were biracial at that time, who identified as black or white, and was mostly probably they identified as black during that timeframe.
LF (00:43:01):
I am sure that is true, yeah.
SM (00:43:07):
[inaudible]. Are there any events or developments that you feel shaped the post-World War II generation more than any other? I am referring to events that may be called watershed moments or moments where members of this generation reflect on when they look at their past that really shape them then and still shape them now. Could be individual events and since post-World War II America, any time that the Boomers have been alive. What do you feel were the watershed moments and what were the watershed moments in your life?
LF (00:43:46):
Certainly the Cold War and Vietnam War. The Vietnam War, particularly because it was the first televised war, which made it such a personal experience that this was in our living room. Then the microwave, think revolutionized our relationship with food and not necessarily in a good way. I think technology, which continues to just shift us on every level of relationships. It changes how our minds work, it changes our expectations of each other. It changes the boundaries between public and private. And I am definitely more comfortable looking backward than looking forward on that. I do not enjoy... I use social networking media, but I do not feel very comfortable with it. I do not even feel that comfortable with my apps.
SM (00:45:12):
When I asked this, I interviewed two people, actually within the last week. I have added six people, and I thank you for being one of the six that I added to my long list of interviews. And when I mentioned that business about the watershed events, you have already mentioned Vietnam here, but some of the things that have come up throughout these 250 plus interviews, the events that shape them in individual ways. And I have got 10 here and I just want to throw them out to you and see if there is anything that clicks.
LF (00:45:45):
Okay.
SM (00:45:45):
I will just read them. And certainly the election of John Kennedy in 1960 and his assassination in 1963.
LF (00:45:52):
Well, that is actually my first memory is his assassination.
SM (00:46:02):
Oh, yeah? Well, that is an interesting, you were very young.
LF (00:46:02):
I was.
SM (00:46:02):
What do you remember?
LF (00:46:02):
I remember that I was with my mother in a thrift store where she bought a lot of our clothes and that the women all began to cry and gather around a radio at the checkout desk. That is what I remember. And then coming home, and then a neighbor of mine, also a grown person crying about that too. But I was more connected to the assassinations of his brother. And I was much more cognizant then of Martin Luther King.
SM (00:46:40):
Yeah, that is interesting because when John Kennedy was killed, you must have been four or five and when Dr. King was killed, you would have been about 10?
LF (00:46:53):
Nine or 10.
SM (00:46:54):
Yeah, nine or 10.
LF (00:46:54):
(19)68, right? Yeah.
SM (00:46:56):
As a young person, what were you thinking about this nation that you were growing up in? Sometimes I wonder what young kids think, but what does it do to the psyche to see three major leaders of your nation murdered?
LF (00:47:14):
Well, I do think that that was a period of hopelessness where the carriers of the torch were being assassinated one after another. And what were the other 10?
SM (00:47:31):
Well, the other items I had here, the other was the march on Washington (19)63.
LF (00:47:35):
I was there.
SM (00:47:36):
You were? Wow. You were so lucky. Oh my God. Your dad and mom took you there?
LF (00:47:44):
Wait a minute, I might have been at the Poor People's March. When was the Poor People's March?
SM (00:47:48):
Well, that is it.
LF (00:47:49):
Oh yeah, I was there. My mom took me.
SM (00:47:51):
250,000 Americans were fortunate enough to be there in the presence of all those great speakers, but just to be around and... Oh wow, you, that is history.
LF (00:48:02):
And I remember being afraid of the National Guard with their rifles because I did not know anything about guns.
SM (00:48:06):
Wow. Yeah. The other ones were of course, the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement, Kent State in 1970.
LF (00:48:15):
Of course.
SM (00:48:16):
The Ronald Reagan election, because things seems to really change in a different direction. Watergate in (19)73, certainly the entire year, 1968. And the rise of the religious, which seemed to really evolve in the late (19)70s and has been around ever since. And then certainly the election of President Obama. I put all these down as watershed kind of developments. I do not know if anything clicks there, but they were just, for a lot of people watershed moments.
LF (00:48:47):
Well, they are all major. I mean, I think more currently the current economic downturn, this major recession is a really affecting experience for everyone I know. So it feels like one of the most widespread, powerful forces going on in my life today.
SM (00:49:11):
When you think of, were you aware as a young person of Dr. King's speech too, in 1967 against the Vietnam War? And if you did, were your parents talking about the extreme criticism that he was receiving not only from the civil rights community, but from the administration of LBJ and others, that he should just stay in the area of civil rights and not be going into world issues? Did that ever come-
LF (00:49:39):
I wish I could remember. I cannot remember that specifically. I mean, my household looked up to Martin Luther King. And I would say my parents would have supported that position wholeheartedly?
SM (00:50:03):
Still there? Yep. Hello?
LF (00:50:07):
Actually, I am going to have to go in about three minutes.
SM (00:50:11):
Oh really?
LF (00:50:12):
Yeah.
SM (00:50:12):
Oh my God, I am only halfway through here.
LF (00:50:14):
[inaudible].
SM (00:50:16):
You do not have 90 minutes?
LF (00:50:19):
Oh, I thought we would said (19)60.
SM (00:50:21):
Oh no, it was 90 it minutes. W-
LF (00:50:24):
Well, I can probably squeeze in another 10, so you should, I guess, cut to your favorite.
SM (00:50:29):
All right. All right. I guess we will go down here. In your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
LF (00:50:35):
Around 1970, it began. I mean, I have always heard and believed the joke that the (19)60s really happened in the (19)70s. But again, I was so young. Maybe an older boomer would have more of a personal connection to that. But I was just a little kid.
SM (00:50:59):
Did the (19)60s ever end?
LF (00:51:01):
Not in the neighborhood I was growing up in. It is still in the (19)60s. People still walk barefoot on the city streets there.
SM (00:51:12):
Wow. So it is still ongoing. Describe your feelings about watching the equality movements in the (19)60s, the civil rights, the black power, the certainly women's, rights Latino movement. There was the yellow movement, the environmental movement, disability movement, you name it. And obviously there was no biracial movement, but what were your overall thoughts on all these movements that were happening when you were very young? And that is why when they talk the culture wars, there is a feeling that the culture wars is the battle to really put a stop to a lot of the progress that is been made here almost to go back to 1950s America. Your thoughts?
LF (00:52:02):
That was a multi-part question.
SM (00:52:08):
Well, it is about the movement.
LF (00:52:10):
Oh, okay.
SM (00:52:11):
Yeah. Just your thoughts on-
LF (00:52:12):
All of those movements could come under the umbrella of social justice, seeking social justice for people who have been disenfranchised from the rest of society. And I was a child at that point, being led by my parents' values, which I continue to hold. I never broke away from them as some children do. And it was in support of every social justice movement. I think we were not aware of some of those because geographically they were not happening. Probably the, did you call it the yellow movement?
SM (00:52:48):
Yeah, the Asian-Americans.
LF (00:52:50):
That was probably more West Coast space.
SM (00:52:52):
Yes.
LF (00:52:53):
And we were in Philadelphia, so that was not very, I think on the screen. That was not so visible to us. But my household was a household that was interested in social justice. So all of that being good.
SM (00:53:13):
One of the questions I have asked everyone is the issue of healing. Do you think the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation not truly healed from all the divisions that took place when they were young? The divisions-
LF (00:53:25):
Did you say naturally healed?
SM (00:53:28):
No-no-no.
LF (00:53:28):
Truly healed. I just could not hear you.
SM (00:53:30):
No, the question is the issue of healing. Do you feel that the boomer generation, like the Civil War generation, will go to its grave, not really healed? Oh, okay.
LF (00:53:42):
Oh, okay, not really. Okay.
SM (00:53:43):
Not really healed from the intense divisions that took place when they were young, the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who were for the war and against the war, those who supported the troops, did not support the troops. The divisions were intense. And do you think, does this generation like the Civil War will not be healed? And is that an important issue within a generation?
LF (00:54:10):
I do not think that it is as divided as the Civil War generation was. But I do think people will go to their grave from my generation without having resolved the gulf between their position and other people's positions, whether it is about race or disability or class. Sure, I think that is always going to be true.
SM (00:54:39):
Have you been to the Vietnam Memorial?
LF (00:54:43):
Maybe. I actually do not remember. I might have gone on a class trip. When was it?
SM (00:54:49):
It opened in 1982.
LF (00:54:54):
I do not remember.
SM (00:54:55):
I know the Vietnam Memorial was built as a non-political entity with a hope that it would not only heal the veterans and their families, but start the steps toward healing the nation. Do you feel that that wall has done anything beyond the veterans themselves?
LF (00:55:16):
Not personally for me.
SM (00:55:21):
How about the generation? Do you think it is done anything in terms of healing the divisions and the generation over that war?
LF (00:55:29):
I do not know if that memorial itself provided healing, but I do feel like the generation has done some significant healing where people who were against the war have developed their points of view to be able to separate the warriors from the war, to be able to honor soldiers while disagreeing with the war, which was not a feeling during a lot of the protests. They sort of threw the baby out with the backwater in terms of vilifying soldiers as well as the policies of the government. So there was a lot of antipathy between protestors or from protestors toward the vets who are coming home. And I think that has certainly shifted. And those people who protected the war have become more humane and I think wiser in their outlook.
SM (00:56:41):
Phyllis Schlafly, who I interviewed, said that the radicals of the (19)60s now run today's universities. And they are the most influential teachers now running departments like women's studies, gay and lesbian studies, black studies, Latino studies, Asian studies, native American studies. David Horowitz has also said that. When you hear that, what do you think?
LF (00:57:02):
I think that sounds stupid. That is what I think.
SM (00:57:13):
Okay. She-
LF (00:57:13):
That just sounds like a gross generalization. And I think generalizations are a risky way of trying to make sense of the world. And it is tricky, even in your project, which I think it is a great enterprise to ask questions about this humongous cohort of people who have affected the world as a group in lots of ways and have had a very particular and interesting experience. So it is not that I am against investigating these large groups, but when people make a comment like that, I have to wonder what Horowitz and Schlafly are basing that on. How carefully have they looked at who is running what programs in university? It just seems like a knee-jerk partisan viewpoint, which from any [inaudible] spectrum, knee-jerk, partisan viewpoints are generally stupid.
SM (00:58:21):
I got three more questions and then we will be done. Are you still there?
LF (00:58:25):
I am.
SM (00:58:25):
Okay.
LF (00:58:25):
[inaudible].
SM (00:58:29):
This question I have asked just about everyone too, would you say the following quotes truly define the boomer generation? Quotes, what people say oftentimes are re-quoted for a particular era of defining a time and a group. And I have got six of them here. And you can add one if you think there is another one that is important. Bobby Kennedy is really signifying about activism that, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?" Of course, Dr. King, " I have a dream that one day my little children will grow up in America that is more equal," from the March on Washington that you experienced as a little girl. Timothy Leary, who talked more about the drugs, "Tune in, turn on, drop out." "We shall overcome," which is the slogan of the Civil Rights Movement. John Lennon, about the anti-war, "All we are saying is give peace a chance." And certainly Peter Max symbolizing the kind of the hippie mentality, "You do your thing and I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, then that will be beautiful." And then I know there was a historic one from the women's movement. That really defines a lot of different groups. Do you have a quote that-
LF (00:59:43):
Well, the one from the women's movement might have been, "War is not healthy for children and other living things."
SM (00:59:49):
Yeah, that is it.
LF (00:59:49):
Yep.
SM (00:59:52):
That would be another one there that could define the boomer generation based on the quotes that people listen. Do you have any others?
LF (00:59:59):
Well, I think that goes towards defining the experience-
LF (01:00:03):
...That goes towards defining the experience then. But the Boomer Generation now is a while different ...I mean, I guess you are focusing mostly on the (19)60s and (19)70s.
SM (01:00:12):
(19)60s and (19)70s and actually their influence even today, because they have now reached 65 years old this past year.
LF (01:00:21):
Right. I think one of the things that is happening is that our large cohort is helping to revolutionize the way this country treats old people because we are becoming old people, and we are a force to be reckoned with. So I think that is actually a really positive thing and a positive legacy we will leave. But let us see, those were really fun quotes to hear. War's not healthy for children or other living things. I remembered the poem, Desiderata. "So placidly amid the noise and the haste," and then it goes on from there. In Sunday school, I made a giant banner and spelled out at least the first stanza of that in yarn with glue on burlap.
SM (01:01:24):
Oh my gosh.
LF (01:01:28):
War is not healthy for children and other living things. Make love not war. That was back then. Also, I do not know if I remember this more, this has such an impact on me now, in the aftermath of King's assassination, but his speech in the church where he says, "I have been to the mountaintop" speech was very big, and the chillingly resonant line was, "I may not get there with you."
SM (01:02:00):
Oh, yes. What-
LF (01:02:04):
Go ahead.
SM (01:02:06):
When the Boomer Generation is long gone, what do you feel historians, sociologists and writers will be saying about the Boomer Generation and the time they lived in terms of your feelings? And then secondly, what do you think some of the lessons learned or the lessons lost?
LF (01:02:25):
Those are very good questions and big questions. Well, what I would hope for is that historians and sociologists, the good that my generation did. One of the things might be, as I just mentioned [inaudible] because we had strength in numbers, that was a distinctive quality of our generation. We had strength in numbers. We had probably more mixed-race people. That strength in numbers perhaps dovetailed with things like technologically base increase in being able to be heard. You know what I mean?
SM (01:03:34):
Mm-hmm.
LF (01:03:35):
So we not only had strengthened numbers, so we had more voices, but now what we grew up in a world that made it easier for voices to be heard. So when we did good, we did very, very good.
SM (01:03:55):
Excellent. And then my last question is broken down to parts here. This is the period that Boomers have been alive, just it can be a few words or a couple sentences, in your own words, briefly describe the America of the following periods when Boomers have been alive. 1946 to 1960.
LF (01:04:20):
You mean like the keywords?
SM (01:04:22):
Yeah. Just what comes to your mind, what was America like in that period?
LF (01:04:28):
Well, I think that was a period of recovery and retrenchment. Post-war. It signified the rise of the middle class. It gave birth to social policies which have both benefited and plagued us, for example, public housing. It was a period of survivors turning away from their losses and beginning to envision a future.
SM (01:05:20):
How about 1961 to 1970?
LF (01:05:25):
All right, first help me, what were the years of the Vietnam War?
SM (01:05:30):
Vietnam war was 1959 to 1975.
LF (01:05:34):
Oh (19)75. (19)59 to (19)75, okay. So we are saying the 1960s right now?
SM (01:05:45):
Yep, just 1960s.
LF (01:05:46):
Okay. So that was a fracturing of that unified society that had just come before that I was just describing before over social policy, civil rights and the war.
SM (01:06:14):
1971 to 1980?
LF (01:06:25):
Oh, that is a weird period because when was Reagan elected?
SM (01:06:32):
(19)81.
LF (01:06:32):
Oh, okay. So we are not there yet. Extraction from Vietnam. I do not know, that is the hard one to characterize.
SM (01:06:55):
A lot of people think that period between (19)70 and (19)75 is still the (19)60s because we did not get out of Vietnam until (19)75.
LF (01:07:04):
Right.
SM (01:07:04):
And on college campuses, student activism was still strong through (19)73. So then of course the disco period came.
LF (01:07:12):
Oh, right, maybe that is why it is so forgettable.
SM (01:07:16):
Then we had (19)80-
LF (01:07:17):
The styles. I had a Farrah Fawcett then.
SM (01:07:24):
Oh, did you?
LF (01:07:26):
Mm-hmm. I am not saying it was a good thing.
SM (01:07:28):
Then (19)81 to (19)92?
LF (01:07:28):
(19)81 to (19)92, so I was just out of college. Well, those were the go-go years. Well, that is sort of "The Bonfire of the Vanities" years. That is what I can say about that. And an increasing tug of war between the right and the left.
SM (01:08:03):
1992 to 2000?
LF (01:08:11):
More of the same tug of war. To 2000, yeah, I do not have much to say about that.
SM (01:08:20):
Okay. And then of course, 2001 to 2012?
LF (01:08:28):
Well, we are now global. I think 2000, we were headed towards this before the World Trade Towers and the war against terror, but in positive and negative ways, we are a global village now. Americans used to feel like the big fish, and now we are just the same sized fish in the world pond. I mean, we are a little bit cut down to size now, that is been happening in the last decade, that our place in the world is shifting. We have to take a slightly more humble stance.
SM (01:09:14):
What is interesting about terrorism that a lot of the young people today, the Millennials, think that terrorism began on 2001. Obviously, it was extreme in 2001, but anybody who lived in the (19)80s and (19)90s know that terrorism was ongoing, and actually really since the 1972 Olympics when the Jewish Olympic team was murdered. So it is like ever since (19)72, there has been some terrorism, a takeover of airplanes and all the other things we saw during the Reagan administration, it was just progressively getting worse. My final question and then we are done.
LF (01:09:50):
Oh yeah, we really do have to be done. Okay.
SM (01:09:54):
This is the last question, and this is about the free speech movement in (19)64 (19)65, obviously you were very young, but how important do you feel that movement was on the Berkeley campus with respect to laying the groundwork for all the movements that took place in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s that we have discussed? Secondly, because you teach in a university and experience going to college in I guess the (19)80s, the changing university in the college campus with respect to how it deals with student activism on the campus? Because my perception, I may be wrong, I would like you are feeling, is that I think universities today, for many years are forgetting the meaning of that movement. That the students at that time fought against the corporate takeover of the university and they wanted it stopped. They felt that university life should center on the exchange of ideas, not corporate domination that basically wants students to take and act in a certain way in order to get ahead in the world. Have universities forgotten lessons of the (19)60s and have they forgotten what it was like to be a student in that period and are universities today afraid of activism returning to college campuses because corporate control seems to dominate today? So it is a lot involved here in that question, but-
LF (01:11:11):
Well, and I remember when I was an undergrad that the big issue for activism on my college campus was apartheid.
SM (01:11:26):
Oh yes.
LF (01:11:26):
Anti-apartheid movement and a rising sense of, which may be borrowed from the Berkeley movements or grew out of that, a rising awareness of the connection between corporate profit and abuse of other people in the world. But the problem is I am an adjunct professor, so I am not involved in the wider university life, and I really do not know enough about what goes on at Penn to tell you that. So I am afraid it is a quick answer which is to say I do not.
SM (01:12:08):
There has not been a whole lot of activism on college campuses except that brief period of anti-apartheid period in the early (19)80s, (19)83 I believe. Now we are seeing the Occupy Wall Street group with many college students involved in that. There could be a reawakening here of activism on college campuses and the universities could be afraid of that returning knowing what happened in the (19)60s.
LF (01:12:34):
Yeah, well, my anti-apartheid experience was in (19)77.
SM (01:12:41):
Okay.
LF (01:12:41):
Or it was (19)78, so it was happening back then, but maybe.
SM (01:12:48):
Yeah, I guess if you have any final comments on the Boomers, any final thoughts you want to say?
LF (01:13:00):
I cannot think of any. If I think of any, I will email you.
SM (01:13:05):
Yeah, I have about 20 more questions here, but we are doing fine. I really thank you.
LF (01:13:09):
Oh, sure.
SM (01:13:10):
And eventually you will see the transcript.
LF (01:13:14):
Great.
SM (01:13:15):
I will work on it. Somehow, in some way, I have to take your picture.
LF (01:13:20):
Can I send you a picture?
SM (01:13:21):
You can send a couple pictures.
LF (01:13:23):
Okay.
SM (01:13:24):
I do not know if you have a picture of you when you are in college.
LF (01:13:27):
I may.
SM (01:13:29):
It is that kind of stuff because I am trying to do this at the top of each interview, there will be two pictures. One will be when some of these people were younger and one current. I have done that with a lot of them. Of course, the politicians that were older, just I have their pictures, I took them in person. You have my email address.
LF (01:13:48):
I do.
SM (01:13:49):
You can send them.
LF (01:13:50):
Can you do me a favor and just email me the request for the photos and be specific about what you are looking for and jpeg size and all that?
SM (01:13:58):
Yep.
LF (01:13:58):
Okay. That would be great. All right.
SM (01:14:00):
Lisa, thank you very much and you have a great day, and thanks for spending this time with me.
LF (01:14:04):
Sure. Thank you.
SM (01:14:05):
Bye now.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Lise Funderburg
Contributor
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Funderburg, Lise ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Authors; Educators; Editors; Funderburg, Lise--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Lise Funderburg is an author, educator and editor. She went to school at Reed College and Columbia University School of Journalism. She has had publications at the <em>Washington Post</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, <em>The Nation</em>, <em>Salon</em> and many more.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2012-01-24
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.54a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.54b
Date Modified
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2017-03-14
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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148:37