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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-02-25
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Malcolm Boyd, 1923-2015
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam war which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15235,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16777215},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":{"1":2,"2":4995385},"15":"Arial","16":11}">Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author, and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam War, which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. </span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Freedom Rides; Martin Luther King Jr.; Jonathan Daniels; Civil Rights Movement; Arlington National Cemetery; Common Cause; Baby boom generation; Healing; Veterans; 1960s; Black Power; Weathermen; Kent State; Jackson State; Spiritualism; The Beatles; Stonewall; Harvey Milk; Legacy of Slavery; Sexuality; AIDS epidemic; John F. Kennedy; Robert Kennedy; Jackson State; Richard Nixon; Watergate; Woodstock; Summer of Love; Counterculture; Hippies; Yippies; Drug Culture; Black Panthers; Weathermen"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Freedom Rides; Martin Luther King Jr.; Jonathan Daniels; Civil Rights Movement; Arlington National Cemetery; Common Cause; Baby boom generation; Healing; Veterans; 1960s; Black Power; Weathermen; Kent State; Jackson State; Spiritualism; The Beatles; Stonewall; Harvey Milk; Legacy of Slavery; Sexuality; AIDS epidemic; John F. Kennedy; Robert Kennedy; Jackson State; Richard Nixon; Watergate; Woodstock; Summer of Love; Counterculture; Hippies; Yippies; Drug Culture; Black Panthers</span>
Duration
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88:43
Subject LCSH
Episcopal Church; Clergy; Political activists--United States; Authors; Boyd, Malcolm, 1923-2015
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Title
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Interview with Malcolm Boyd
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Boyd, Malcolm, 1923-2015 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Episcopal Church; Clergy; Political activists--United States; Authors; Boyd, Malcolm, 1923-2015
Description
An account of the resource
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam war which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15235,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16777215},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":{"1":2,"2":4995385},"15":"Arial","16":11}">Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author, and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam War, which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. </span>
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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ND
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.26
Date Modified
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2017-03-14
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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88:43
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
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Date of Interview
2009-12-03
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mandy Carter
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the \"1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005\"."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the "1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005."</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Activism; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Woodstock; Baby boom generation; Voting Rights Act; Civil Rights Movement; Race Relations; Women's Health; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; LSD; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; Free Speech Movement; LGBT"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13689059}}">Activism; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Woodstock; Baby boom generation; Voting Rights Act; Civil Rights Movement; Race Relations; Women's Health; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; LSD; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; Free Speech Movement; LGBT</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
135:15
Subject LCSH
Human rights workers; African American sexual minorities; Carter, Mandy--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Mandy Carter
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So
Date of interview: 3 December 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
SM: Testing, one, two, testing.
0:07
MC: Because what I thought was so unique about the (19)60s that of course, you know, you are running rattling off these names of people. And I do not know about other generations, I guess what did they call the (19)50s? The Beat Generation? And I do not know.
0:21
SM: Yeah, sometimes, you know, the silent generation two or World War II.
0:25
MC: Yeah. But what was intriguing to me is that I thought it was I thought it was interesting. Those of us born too young to be a part of the Civil Rights Movement, but just the right age to be smack dab in the middle of the Vietnam Movement. But what strikes me, Steve, and I am just like, come up in some of your its just the continuity factor of so many of us that when we got involved, we got about the big picture. It was not just only the Vietnam War, it was not only about you know, women's right to choose to it was this broader perspective of equality and justice, and I think that so many of us who are still active, still involved. And in a way, I think the demographics when I last saw when I left saw them that post World War Two baby boomers, roughly 78 million of us and thinking, what kind of impact that can have and it has to be so real I think the Obama stuff, what impact that has on a culture when you have that many people that kind of came from that generation? I am just intrigued by that. And maybe your book might get to the heart of all that is how else do you explain some of the people you are rattling off? That are there are still here and what they believe in is just a constant. I am just intrigued.
1:44
SM: Well you know for me, yeah. So, anyway, one of the things to, what I have made sure that I tried to get the book conservatives in here too, because I interviewed Charles Murray, you know, the Charles Murray and I interviewed Ron Robinson for the Young Americans foundation Ed Filner from the Heritage Foundation, Dr. Lee Edwards, a historian at that group, I have interviewed David Horowitz. And I am trying to make sure, I am hoping that one of the goals of this project is also respect and, and an understanding of that each individual, whether you like them or not, are deserving of integrity. I have always, I have always looked upon the definition of integrity as people who stand for something who are willing to stand up in front of a room and speak to people knowing there might be people out there who are going to disagree or dislike what they have to say, but they have the courage, but they had the courage to stand up for their beliefs. And so, this project could be something that could bring people together, even different opposing points of view politically. So, yeah.
2:52
MC: I totally agree. And I have to tell you, when I think about all the movements that we have all been a part of, and, you know, nowadays, sometimes I think so people busier-busier getting your 15 minutes of fame that they would have no really no integrity. But I remember some of our opposition, depending on which side you go on that, but you have to respect what they believe in. They believed in it, they lived it, they talked it. And-and I am really glad you are going to do that. Because without that it would be to be almost skewed, would not it if you did not include?
3:19
SM: Yes.
3:21
MC: Both sides on that I agree with you.
3:22
SM: And I have been trying, you know, trying to get Phyllis Schlafly. You know, some people say no, because they are busy, but you got to make the effort. And that is what I am trying to do. And I saw the first question because you brought up the fact that you are a perfect example of longevity. And you mentioned some of your peers who have lived this life throughout their entire lives of activism in different areas. But one of the criticisms that we often read about the boomer generation is this issue of longevity and how do you feel about the members of the generation overall, whether they be black, white, gay, straight, uh, or any ethnic group in terms of if they were really committed when they were young, have they continued their commitment into the beginning of I guess old age, 62? Just your thoughts on the generation itself? Are you? Are you do you have positive feelings towards the boomer generation or negative?
4:21
MC: Absolutely positive. In fact, I would almost say that is why I am I mean, I if I was not doing his work as an activist, I would love to be a demographer with people who do demography, people who do demographics. Excuse me. Because I am thinking that one of the constants I think that is really helped me, and of course, this is all before the internet. And now the technology which you could use on this little switch on your computer, you have access to everything, prior to those days. I think a lot of us that were getting involved as is first because you had people who were standing up there to explain a folk singer that started out as a teenager, she is nearly 70, who is still believing what she believes in about nonviolence and is consistent in that. And you see that as an example, and I think for me now, maybe this is, maybe this is the defining factor, maybe Steve, I think for those of us who believe in the concepts of nonviolence, and social change, maybe our style or what we believed in, one reason why I am still doing all this work is because when I was bumping into groups like the American Friends Service Committee, the Quakers, the War Resisters League, they talked about the philosophical underpinning of what we did every single day with equality and justice for all. And when you have that as your philosophical underpinning that it does not matter what the issue is coming down the road, and especially in my opinion, I do not know how you feel about this, but the society has such a short attention span it is like I own at a time, I am only going to do women's organizing. Only going to do the work and Vietnam, I am only going to work on nuclear, you know, disarmament, not realizing that there is some kind of constant that keeps you in the ready. Alert. And again, prepared to say that this is multi issue, organizing and as a woman of color, thinking about the struggles I have gone through as a woman, as a person of color, and as a lesbian. How many times have I been down that damn road? So, when I think about that, and I even now when I go out and do public speaking, I was speaking at a black college here in Durham, and it was some, you know, black colleges where, you know, they do not want to really talk about the gay thing. Now, more students are saying, wait a minute, you know, we know we have got gay folks in our black community. Yeah, it is an issue. But I say to them and long before they were coming after us for being black folk and slaves in this country, who do you think was at the receiving end of not having anything in this country, then it was people of color, you know. So, when you when you when you draw it that way and realize it is about kind of a rights issue, people listen to that differently, I think Steve, and I think young people, there is just an attitude of, you know, whatever, I do not care, even in, even in the black, you know, black folk. When I think of youth, I think they are going to be the ones who really will make a difference. But, but that has been my experience. And I think the other final thing I would say on that is, I think people like collinear, and others, a lot of us are bridge builders. Some people are not bridge builders, but I have always been a bridge builder, and where did I learn that you know, the Quakers and nonviolence and how you have to be in a position to see both sides, be willing to kind of go both places, wherever that might be, and willing to take some risk, willing to take some criticism. I have had black folks say to me, Mandy, you are black. I do not want to hear one word about you being lesbian. Yeah, I have been in the NOW and you know, the National Organization of Women setting where I wanted. I want to hear about you being a feminist. Here one word about you being lesbian. Mm hmm. And I said, I am like you all like, you know, take me or leave me. But you got to take all of me.
8:18
SM: That is interesting, because we did a national tribute to Bayard Rustin. Several years back and in our department, we brought a lot of people into because Bayards from Westchester.
8:28
MC: And I-
8:30
SM: And, uh, and we took I took a couple students down to Washington DC and one of them was the president of the Black Student Union and we went to see Courtland Cox who was a close friend of Byard, Rustin, actually, he was a mentee of buyers, who worked in the Clinton administration and we were sitting down there and I could not feel I thought that these young men, both African American young men knew the Byard Rustin was gay, but certainly this president of BSU did not and when Courtland was talking, he mentioned that he was gay and I could see the face on the leader the of the BSU because he is anti-gay. And, oh my, and I did not know that until that particular moment. And I saw right there the divisions between the black and the gay community and the African American community. So, that was kind of a revelation. And he said, my minister just taught me that it was that it is wrong. So, he was not really a supporter of the conference. And so, and I could see it, I want to ask you a question here. What, what specific event in your young life turned the light bulb on in your head with respect to changing your life direction? I know you went to high school I was reading you went to high school, I think in Schenectady, New York. Schenectady, New York. Yep, I know. Well, because I am from Cortland/ Ithaca area and so, I am from New York State. So, I know and, and some but what was not in your high school years and said this just is not right or, what was what was the turning point that kind of helped to aided in in your career path?
10:06
MC: Well Believe it or not, Steve, it was a, we had a social studies class. And I remember I was like, that is a freshman when it goes freshmen South when you go, how does it go freshmen-
10:18
SM: Sophomore, junior senior-
10:22
MC: So, my junior year, and our social studies teacher brought in someone from the American Friends Committee to talk about AFSC. This is like in (19)64, (19)65. And this one person came in this is the only time I ever met this person came into our class and was talking about the work they were doing down south and the Civil Rights Movement. But when he was talking, I, you know, I had to back up a minute the fact that you are going to maybe call this magic moment is interesting, because you know how sometimes you would something happens to you and at the time, you have no idea the impact it is going to have on your life years and years later. Well, this young man who came in from the American Friends Service Committee talking about the Quakers, um, the work they were doing down south, but two things he said that really just perked my heart and my head up. And that was when he made the comment about the power of one. But you know, we live in a society where basically we are always told every day, there is not much you as an individual can really do. But if you really think about it, each and every one of us has to impact change as a person, the one that struck me, but the other thing he did at the end of the class, because I was like, all ears at that point, you know, I mean, you know, you are sitting up in Schenectady what do you know from nothing? It is you know, GE and you are really detached from the, you know, Vietnam was really was not an issue at that time. But then he said something interesting, he said at the end of the class, and if any of you would like to come for a- one-week high school work camp in the Pocono Mountains, sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee, raise your hand and we will get you there. I raised my hand, and I went, and that one week in the Pocono Mountains of a high school work camp with the American friends Service Committee. The literally changed my life because I was my goal was to be a doctor. I was on a track to be a medical doctor and all that. But I went to that one week up in the Poconos. And I said, I am out of here and got the California the institute and blah, blah, blah. But that was what happened. That one class that one class made all the difference in my life. And here I am all these years later because of it. So, that would be it.
12:33
SM: My gosh. Well, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
12:39
MC: You know, I have to tell you, it is interesting, because, you know, I would probably have to say, coming from New York and moving to San Francisco. I mean, I just do a little quick timeline. I graduated high school in 1966. I was living in an orphanage. It was called the Schenectady Children's Home and the way the law works in New York is that you are a ward of the state. When you turn 18, you are on your own. And I have been a ward of the state since I was born in New York. And I did good in school and the directors of the Schenectady Children's Home where we all went to Mount Pleasant High School said, Mandy, if you decide you want to go on to college, we will pay for the complete thing. But you have got to stay in school and I said, I was interested in the beginning, went one year to Hudson Valley Community College, but then by that time, I was really agitated wanting to really figure out what I wanted to do. I had gone to the AFSC high school work camp, and I made a decision I dropped out. I dropped out of college, which meant I lost all my funding. Hitchhiked down to New York City spent the summer in New York in 1967, and then hitchhiked out to San Francisco with a couple of friends in the at the end of summer, and got to the Institute in 1968. And that is how life has been. To me the (19)60s was a generation "this is what I have to figure out". The Civil Rights Movement had just ended, Martin Luther King had been assassinated. John F. Kennedy had been assassinated. Bobby Kennedy had been assassinated to have those three murders happen in a lifetime of a generation. I do not know if we will ever-ever have that replicated again, and the impact that had and add to that remember, the Cuban Missile Crisis.
14:22
SM: Oh yes-yes, (19)62, 196-
14:26
MC: And I remember in New York, they were given last rights on the radio and then feeling like you know, your life could be over any minute. There was such a sense of urgency, Steve, that I always thought, why am I going to be doing this? I might not be around long enough. Why do not I do the world's safer to I can at least know I will be around long enough. And I think there was a whole generation of us that this kind of error era that it I think it just had a profound impact on how we viewed life, how we saw things and then we thinking we have got to dedicate our lives to figuring out how social change could really change all of that. That would be the thing I would say would be unique.
15:05
SM: When you look at the boomer generation, what would you if you were to list some characteristics of some of the strengths that you saw in the generation some of the weaknesses, what would they be?
15:17
MC: Folk songs, I thought I thought that whole era of you know was you know, named mom, Judy calm. Joan Baez, you know, Crosby, Stills, Nash, that whole kind of what I would call acoustic music. But what was on the radio, it was like folk songs. I think that certainly set a tone in terms of what kind of music you were hearing or you know, Buffalo Springfield, I thought that was interesting. And of course, living in California and being at the heart of the whole anti draft resistance movement. By the resistance, I was living in San Francisco, that resistance with David and all those folks down in Palo Alto, and we were doing demonstrations of the other day. And so, because we were at the heart of being able to maybe stop some of the Vietnam War Machine, if you will, with the, uh, ports where and the- were guys had to go further to be inducted, it just seemed to be like the heartbeat. So, maybe my perspective might would be different than if I was living in, you know, down south or something like that. But another-another method would have to would have to have been Kent State. I think Kent State and remember, there had been some other black kids killed before that on some black schools, but Kent State, I think it just made people realize this government will do whatever it needs to do and it will kill our own people. What a rude awakening that was. I would say certainly the murders of Kennedy, [inaudible] Kennedy at Kent State, you know, it is just- it seems like it is-it is-it is impossible to believe that these things could happen. We are in the missile crisis? How could that happen?
16:56
SM: When you look, when you look at the generation [inaudible], would you consider mostly positive or whether some negative qualities within the within this group?
17:05
MC: I would always see it as positive. But I think that you know, I was also living in the Bay Area when the Black Panthers came around. And as a black person who was a staunch pacifist, I was asking what in the world of these black folk doing with guns up at the state capitol? Do they not realize that I do not care how many guns they carry, look at the price these black panthers paid? And when I think about the Panthers, what people do not remember or they should that they had some of the best programs going on over in Oakland. They had breakfast programs, they had programs going on in the neighborhood. And I saw that side of it. And I could not understand Steve why a group that would be so dedicated to the community. They are the ones that brought in the afros. I mean, look, look at the size of bandits. Angela Davis is outgrowing, get rid of that? You know, James Brown with the slicked down hair and the process and they said you know black is beautiful. And then to go from that message to an off the pigs And, and it was just, and I know for me it was rough choice to be around my black people in. Hear, "well, you know, we are going to support the Panthers, do you?", And I said, "I am not I am not going to be supporting the Panthers not with the guns". I like the idea of doing the breakfast program and working in the neighborhood. What is up with that guy and look at the price these people paid, get murdered in jail, and why they thought guns would work. I do not it is beyond me. It did not.
18:25
SM: You were there in San Francisco during the summer of love.
18:29
MC: I was there during the Summer of Love.
18:30
SM: What was it like being in the Bay Area? You are the first person, ah well David obviously was there. But the first the first person that was really talked about it except describing it. What was it like being in San Francisco in the summer look?
18:45
MC: Well the first place we went of course because we were moving down I was I actually ended up one a part of my part one of my jobs I got just because I had no place to live. I was living in Central Park and I was living down in Washington Square Park, but this is like (19)67 so it is like not it is not it was not bad. It was like just the thing that you did. You know in New York, we were called luck children who go to, you know, California. But I remember I had run out of money. I was walking down in the East Village, West Village. And there was a sign hanging on the door that says, Come on in free lunch or something. And it was run by Tim Leary. It was called the Lead for Spiritual Discovery, LSD. Do I need to say more? And here is the negative. This is one of the negatives I saw. So many young people were going to all these, you know, like New York and San Francisco. Do you know who and if you wanted a place to stay, they would give you free housing. But 99.9 percent of the people sitting down there were men trying to hit on all the women coming into these places, and it happened to me. And I said to the people who were who were running this place, I said, you know, what, I would like to find a place to stay and of course, all the end of the night, it is all these guys. That is all they were doing. It was just despicable when I think about it. Mm hmm. And you know, after the first night, I said, what my choice was one guy or three guys down at the dock. That was my choice. And I turned to the running display says that you need to know this is not good. They said, well, Mandy, is there anything we can do? And I said, you know, is there a way I can work for you or in exchange for a place to stay that is safe? And they said, yeah, you could work here and answer the phones. And that is what I did for the whole summer, Steve, when I work place the whole summer. Oh, but when I think about how men in my opinion, it happened out in California, when we got out there the same thing. They were just sitting on all these women, and if you were willing, and I thought about that, and How sick is that? Yeah, that was the downside for me.
20:44
SM: One of the things some and you know this from probably hearing it on the news, and then criticisms of the boomer generation for the problems in our society over the years, I remember in (19)94, I think of Newt Gingrich when he came to power, um, some of his comments, were that, you know, because a lot of the problems in American society are directly related to the (19)60s. And of course, George Will over the years has written pieces on it. And other people have made comments who were against the liberal left or anything they can to kind of downgrade that era and that generation and the things that happened in the (19)60s in the (19)70s. Criticisms like well, the drug culture, the breakdown, the American family, the divorce rate, a lack of respect for authority. This was a creation of the victim mentality that many people today saying is out there because of that era. What are your thoughts on those critics of the boomer generation who believe this?
21:45
MC: I do not buy it. And what I find fascinating is that maybe now this is just my opinion, but when you think about who was sitting in those offices, while we were trying to beat that war back, it was Dwight Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon and maybe a lot of us are kind of like we are waiting for a moment when we would have enough numbers to make a difference. And you know, who then ended up being Bill Clinton? And-and so, you know, when I think about now, you know, there is I mean, we would have predicted during that time, how many times for those of us who were out here trying to end that war in Vietnam, and again, a lot of us were too young for the Civil Rights Movement. All we heard was, your rosy eyed never going to happen, you cannot make change. That is all we ever heard. And then we found out when the Nixon tapes were exposed, and someone like the Dan Ellsberg talk about a magic moment, Daniel Ellsberg, who used to work for the RAND Corporation, bumped into people like Randy Keeler and David Harris. Right. And what led him to get to give out the pentagon papers that was about a magic moment, Steve, and that probably did not work to really pull back the veil-veil? Of what was said versus the reality of what they were doing and I think that a lot of us were thinking, we can make a difference. We have made a difference. But we had to wait until almost the presidency of Bill Clinton after Ronald Reagan. So, it is easy to always blame someone or say something. It was not I realized, Steve, that Vietnam War was over. I remember how I said you earlier that a lot of us who had longevity understood it was not just a particular war or a particular issue. Mm hmm. A lot of people went back to school, they got married, they had children, no disrespect, you know that that was part of what you know, they almost put off their lives to try to end this war. And they did. And then people kind of asked, well, then you want me to come back out and do what now? I mean, like, you know, civil justice issues, we are continuing on that lives and you see people now who are of the (19)60s generation, but look at the (19)70s they bring to the table and-and I think that is part of- In my opinion, in a way, you go Clinton then you go eight years of George W. Bush who never should have been in there. And then you get of all people, Barack Obama with the timing. I mean, tell me history did not have some kind of a path happening here. And I have a lot to think in my opinion of that to the (19)60s has direct impact. That is me. I might.
24:19
SM: Well, that-that is interesting. One of the things about the (19)60s and early (19)70s, and a lot of people think the (19)60s go right to about 1973, (19)74 when some changes took place.
24:31
MC: But especially when that war ended in (19)73.
24:34
SM: Yes, but there were so many movements, the Civil Rights Movement that the I guess the question I am trying to ask is, how important was the boomer generation and the people that were young during that time and in their ongoing links, today with these movements, and I am talking about the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American Movement and the environmental movement. And, you know, how important were the youth. And again, we know that you are you are have had longevity and you have mentioned the Joan Baez and others. But really, the leaders of those movements continued to lead those movements as they aged.
25:18
MC: Now this leads to an interesting point, and I am really glad you asked it that way. Maybe what I was trying to say is that I think another lesson we learned especially after the murder of Martin Luther King I think everyone realized was that if you if you have a cause, and if you do not try to hold up one person who winds up being the head of that cause, because if you kill them, you kill the movement. [dial tone] is-is that the cause is really what has got to be the continuum, not you. So, if the leadership gets older, they move on or whatever, it is the cause that ends [dial tone], excuse me, that ends up and I remember a distinct I remember in the leadership of what I would call our generation, why women got damn sick and tired of men running everything including the resistance because it was always male with men-men- men-men, the Civil Rights Movement, namely a woman other than Coretta Scott King and the person who sat into Montgomery Bus Boycott, you would be you would be hard pressed to hear anyone get.
26:14
SM: Dorothy Height might be another one.
26:16
MC: And, Dorothy Height, but you know, but I mean, three, um. And so, I think you know, when you when you saw movements that were so which is one reason why I think the women's and feminist movement really took off. People just got tired of always feeling like we were here, we were here we were doing the work, but the figureheads who got to get the press. It was always the men and I think a lot of women said, besides just fighting for the rights as women, Steve was a voice and a movement they could call their own. And so, I remember one distinct meeting. I do not know if David mentioned this or not, but I will share one distinct meeting that I remember when we were having with the resistance down in Palo Alto, we were doing one of our usual meetings and the men were dominating and someone passed a piece of paper and approve, you know, you are at a meeting pass a piece of paper around, put your information on it. And it got to one woman and she says, "Well, how come there is nothing but penises on this list? There is no women on here." And that one comment, made everyone go. Yeah, yeah. And the other. And the other controversy was Joan Baez, when she and her sister Mimi and Pauline put out that poster that said, women say yes to men to say no. And you I mean, they had to take it off because it was just people were outraged because what message was that women say yes to the men who say no. And so you know, think about that. put that in perspective. And if you want to, if you want to view if you want to, if you want to view those kinds of, if you were doing like a flowchart, where this dramatic shift of women thinking Enough is enough. And then of course, with the women them dealing having to deal with us, we are lesbian now, when this whole thing called the lavender menace. We do not want lesbians associated with, they were not that they were not there. Which meant that a lot of lesbians said, you know, what if we cannot be here to be who we are, we are gone. We are out of here. And then you got the lesbian movement. So, I am just intrigued at these moments where sometimes it is not out of because people realize it is the right thing. You just get tired of being ignored or you are not your issues are not relevant, and you go on, start something new, and then look what we have now.
28:25
SM: Well, we know that um. I know Dr. King, if he were alive, would be very sensitive to this issue, because he would have to take the criticism that the Civil Rights Movement, like you said, was basically a male dominated movement in the antiwar movement the same way. I would like to ask you questions, though, on the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement. Cesar Chavez was kind of a con on the leaders in the Native American movement and the environmental movement were men also kind of in the lead of these movements and women worse in secondary roles at the beginning.
29:00
MC: You know, it is interesting. I mean, let us take one, let us take, let us take them each by their own thing, because each one could be different. What was interesting to me is that you know, when you thought about Cesar Chavez, first of all, the fact that you had led farmworkers organizing was extraordinary. And the fact that it was not white and middle class, it was like, Whoa, what is going on here in California. But what people do not remember is that Cesar Chavez always, always, always had if the laws were with him, or always demanded that the media make sure that they included her but the media kept on only talking about who, Cesar Chavez and it was not until Cesar got ill and or when he could not be somewhere that people realize, wait a minute, Dolores Huerta was there from day one with Cesar Chavez, but a lot of people do not remember that history. And so, even so even when you have a man who understands and especially in the Latino community, where even though you have got this macho thing, let us admit it is like a matriarch just like the black community, what do you think? Family it is women and maybe part of the dynamic this is, this is a little psychological but maybe part of the reason why when you have, and it is more of an issue with black men than with women about being gay. Women have always been the matriarch of the family. And maybe anything that threatens the idea that males are so what word Am I looking for Steve are so chastised or so put down that whenever there is an opportunity for them to be the figurehead to be the face and voice, they will take it. But still knowing that without the women, I mean, if you did not have women, in these black churches, man, you would not have no black church, but the minister gets all the accolades. Mm hmm. And so-and so, I think when you think about, you know, the gay thing when I first talked about being gay in my black community, you know what they said to me? They said, "Mandy, we have enough problems, we do not need to be bringing that gay thing in here. That is all we need to have. We can barely hang on to our men now and you want we are going to lose more men because we are gay." I mean, think about that. And that really goes to a heart a lot of the reason why they are upset because it is what the preacher says, but they are thinking we do not want to lose no more men. Anyway, um, so, but-but I think the environmental women, I think the environmental movement had a lot more women, what was the Dr. Helen Keller got? Is that her name?
31:17
SM: Yes.
31:18
MC: Yeah, really-really was out there. And I would say that might have been the place where it really broke the tenure of-of being so male dominated. And now that that would almost tend to think as we went into the (19)70s and (19)80s there tends to be quite frankly, more women. Sometimes they have been men but again, it was just hard to break that male dominated thing even if they were doing good social justice.
31:43
SM: I know in the Native American movie you think of Russell Means and Sam sub there was a woman made kill about most women are placed in a secondary role there either so-
31:53
MC: And once again they were you know, and yet you still had so many strong women, Native American Indigenous women and you know and maybe that and maybe that is where you know you ended up people like with woman man killer and others who ended up starting to write and or be known and, and but this culture is just- it is just men and also the media does not help when they say who you are speaking to your people who your spokespeople see when there was a (19)63 march on Washington. We always talked about [inaudible] never got to speak as an out gay man but you never you never you know who else did not speak that day. Not one woman spoke, they say, not one woman spoke at the 1963 march on Washington, because they even said we cannot have any women speaking because we will not be taken seriously. So, think about that. Here we are with black folk trying to get the right to vote and be full citizens. But even at the march that was really a magic moment. Women were allowed to sing but they did not speak.
32:53
SM: I know at least Dorothy Height was able to stand up there with him, so. [laughter]
32:58
MC: You know what as he went on no, you do not. And then the rules were no women speaking. But think about that now. And I am not saying it is I am not saying I am not trying to put a value judgment on it. But I think it was sense of even it did not matter what movement if you were black, white, Latino, Native American, in a movement for justice, even within those movements, there was still the issue of where the issue of gender and let alone sexual orientation what role they had to play, but look how far we have come.
33:27
SM: When you think of Harvey Milk, I actually lived out in the San Francisco Bay Area at the time that he was assassinated along with Mayor Moscone. When-when Harvey Milk who is the hero of the gay and lesbian movement, even though Stonewall happened many years earlier, what-what-what how would you rate him and whether he was he was a male leader? So, what how would you rate him in terms of, uh, his treatment of women?
33:56
MC: But you never said something about First of all, people, I have not seen the movie milk pretty limited. I do not know if I could go, have you seen that?
34:03
SM: Yes, I have it.
34:05
MC: Okay. Uh huh. Okay, um, one day I might, you know, I might I might get around to it. I remember, after the Vietnam War, it took me years and years and years before I could go to the wall. I mean, you talk about people having issues going to the wall of being vets, I think a lot of us who are who wanted to fight that war. I could never go near that wall. It was just too hard. And I thought a lot of us who fought that to fought the war in Vietnam, let alone those who fought in it. The Wall was a hard place and it took I think it was like two years ago, I finally went to the wall for the first time ever. Oh, wow. It was it was devastating to think how many lives we lose and for what? Anyway, Harvey Milk, putting up with Harvey when this is what is so interesting, though. See, when Harvey, when Harvey and you were there, when Harvey Milk started to run, you know, back in the community was what are you wasting your time we are having a great time in San Francisco. It was not met with any kind of wonderful thing the way you look at people now who run for public offices, it is like what is the point? But Harvey as a man, and because he had a lot of the gay male community behind them, but there were a number of women who were can that were key in his election campaign did not get to hear that. Now this, the tragedy is and I was, you know, we are all hanging out in the bars, but I was hanging at Moz. And, and you know, and someone said Harvey wants to run and why not? It is gay vote and blah-blah. It was not until the man got murdered on that fateful day. And we all looked at each other. I mean, remember, Steve, but that happened that day, everyone was told to meet down at the corner of Castaway market bring a candle we are going to march in silence down to City Hall. And Steve, this is a town where lesbians never mixed with gay men, gay men never mixed with lesbians because we had our own worlds. That was what was great. And we got to the corner of market and [inaudible] and Steve, we looked at each other and said, what have we been doing? And it took Harvey's death, and George Moscone’s murder to say we have got to come together as a community, and I do not think that it is just an- a weird thing to say, I do not think that would have happened and occurred and look where we are now-now with the politics of San Francisco, because people did not quite understand what we had in the gift. We are too busy in our own worlds, you know, I will never forget that moment as long as I live. And I think back at that time, and that to me was the candidate in terms of the power and the politics of LGBT San Francisco to this day.
36:30
SM: My sister lived within three blocks of Mayor Moscone’s home. And I can remember I have a dumbed down Berlin game and I can remember driving up around his home and seeing all the cars there after the day after he was killed. And then of course, the event the daytime event in front of City Hall, remember when and I was there along with just about, I had a lot of people that I worked with, they were in they were not getting it what they could, but they liked Harvey Milk and they were all there. Talk about bringing people together, that that event brought gay and straight together because they admired him and I will never forget Joan Baez singing Amazing Grace.
37:13
MC: Oh, man, do you remember?
37:14
SM: Were you there?
37:16
MC: Yeah, I was there at that? Yeah. Talk about, talk about memorable days memorable days, not only in the context of San Francisco, I am getting chills thinking about it. And, you know, it is just it is almost like it is not me, Steve, but once to take this to lose someone to really sometimes grasp just how precious what we have in the, in our dedication to what we do.
37:38
SM: It is almost amazing because it is I have worked in universities for so about 30 years and, you know, all the different groups that we have talked about here, whether they be African American, Asian, American, Latino, you know, college Republicans, college Democrats, student, government, gay and lesbian, all the groups. They all come together. When there is a tragedy, like 911 and or somebody is murdered or the Rodney King incident, or whenever there is a major tragedy, they are all together and but then they seem to dissipate are not together anymore. Except for cultural extravaganzas, or, you know, and diversity, they have these special events that happen the university, it brings everybody out and about a tragedy, but it does not seem to be an everyday happening. And that is always disturb me. I do not know how you feel.
38:30
MC: And I was wondering to set that that is part of I was wondering if that is part of human nature, is that part of American culture, I agree with you. We would like to come together around a moment of tragic tragedy. And then time goes by now I will say this, I think they are, I think that would happen sometimes, though, that lessons are learned and I think there is some strong bonding that happens too, so some so you so you stay in touch with or you might be more clued in about why we need to establish like a relationship together. And I am not sure why someone was celebrating something and or when we have to mourn. And I am not sure what that is about Steve. I mean, but on the other hand remember I told you after Harvey's death, I mean, the gay and lesbian community, we did not, there was really no reason why we had to get together. But when Harvey ran, and then we realized about the politics of the city, and it was in our best interest to try to figure out ways, um, and then you know, when he after he got killed, we had another gay person run, got the seat, and then you had your first lesbian. You know, so, yes and no, depending on what you mean by-by staying together versus drifting apart. I mean, more about that, maybe that would help me understand.
39:46
SM: Well, at the university, for example, we had a, um, student who was an African American gay male, and I did not know this till after he left, but he was a very big leader within the Black Student Union. And, uh, he was always in the BSU office, BSU office, it is not on purpose, they have always had their doors shut. But right across the hallway is the Gay and Lesbian Student Union. And they had their-their office. And his only comment was that he told another person who told me is that he never felt comfortable walking across the hall because he feared what his peers would say in the BSU. So that was, you know, that that is the separation, I am talking about that, uh, you are, you are expected to be in one community and it is okay to be friends. But if, if you go too far, I just a perception that I have seen what one of the qualities of the boomer’s generation is they thought they were the most unique generation in American history. And a lot of boomers when they were young felt that way because they thought they were going to change the world. They were going to end injustice. They were going to bring equality. They are going to end the war, they are going to create a more perfect world. And that is why they had that unique feeling in some to even who we were approaching that (19)62 era-era still think that. But what are your thoughts on a generation? You know, I do not think I am not sure 74 to 78 million thought this, but a lot of them knew that they are unique. Just your thoughts on they are thinking that they are unique.
41:25
MC: Yeah, I guess I guess he said a racist field that I guess I would be curious to know, like, you know, go from the (19)60s, you know, what they racing and all that. Now, this is my take on it. I think I mean, I say I still think the (19)60s were magical because I think, uh, I mean who would be the next, and how do we count the generation? So, if you had the (19)60s, would it be the (19)70s and (19)80s. And then what was the Generation X and Y? I have no clue what that means.
41:52
SM: Generation X and now the millennials. Yeah.
41:56
MC: Is that what they are calling them? Look at the music we are listening to. I mean, when I think about the song I remember hearing that were songs that really meant something Dylan and Baez and other folk, you know, it was it was a protest generation but it was also a generation of hope. Now I cannot even make the lyrics out half the time of what is going on. Um. And so, music is an indication of what your what your generation is about. I do not know my day and I was part of that (19)60 thing because after that, I just lost track and then we got the bubblegum pop, (19)70s stuff and, you know, whatever.
42:29
SM: Disco. Disco.
42:35
MC: Wait a minute. I am glad you said that. Because I was just thinking about something. I was I would play I think we should claim to disco gay community. And here is why.
42:44
SM: Hold on. I am going to turn my tape here. Hold on one second.
42:48
MC: Okay, great.
42:55
SM: All right. Alright, go continue.
42:57
MC: But I am glad you mentioned disco because I remember this is going back to when I was up in Schenectady high school. I remember. And I will just say all this stuff, and then you figure it out, Steve, I remember thinking when the Civil Rights Movement was in its height of time, you know, (19)64, (19)65 and all that was going on down there. I remember Motown and if you remember the (19)60s and Motown songs ended up being this amazing cultural thing. And I guess you would have to count Elvis-Elvis in there somewhere in the (19)50s. With seemed like, even if you were white. You listen to songs of the Motown and I think we have to credit Motown for maybe bringing a lot of folks maybe never would have been put in the same place because of the music that was going on in the (19)60s and that would be the Motown sound, the folk songs. And then in (19)64, (19)65 came the Beatles. Now remember how jarring that was for me because up in upstate New York, when I was going to Mount Pleasant High School, we would always have daily dances and until the Beatles came along the only music that we were hearing, dancing was Motown, and then the Beatles and someone said, well, who are these people? They were white. They were from Britain. They had a sound, they took the whole thing over. But after the (19)60s, the (19)70s then we had disco. And I was in San Francisco and thank God for Sylvester. [laughter] You know who Sylvester is right. Yes. And Sylvester was the biggest Queen out there and he did not have anything but pride about who he was. But disco ended up being the scene and who else was on that? The Village People with YMCA? Yep. And how many baseball games do you go today? Steve? What song do they play all the time at every baseball stadium in this country, YMCA, so do not tell me that you know that whole disco sound and you know that was another generation too. But even disco had its unique role in my opinion music of-
45:02
SM: You, you make a perfect way? Because all my friends were listening to Diana Ross and the Supremes. I mean, who would know? Yeah. And the temptations and the list and of course, Marvin Gaye and what is going on in the early (19)70s.
45:10
MC: I mean it is powerful songs, right?
45:19
Yeah. And they are just, they are just so many and then of course, um, Donna Summer you are talking about Donna Summer and Gloria Gaynor and the Bee Gees and all the disco music is unbelievable. You make some good-good points. How important, how important do you feel that the college students of the boomer generation were in ending the war in Vietnam? I have gotten mixed responses on their-their impact on ending the war, just your thoughts on the protests on college campuses, and their overall impact.
45:55
MC: Pivotal. We could not do it without him. I mean, we had a lot of people out in the streets, but it was because we had these courts that was the other thing see we ended up doing this this tactic of coordinated days of action, I remember, not the draft week, um, you know you name them were and the infrastructure because college campuses was the natural built in infrastructure that us to organize these strikes and sit-ins and pros and what not and-and I do not know how you do movement in this country without them you had students very much involved heading down in droves down south when the Civil Rights Movement was going on. When you had the feminist movement and you had people demanding women's studies programs on college campuses, you had women campuses all across this country and even with the farm worker boycott, which is how did you think they got all these contracts when these colleges to say do not buy the lettuce so colleges, to me, is a built in infrastructure that really worked and the other, the other the other. The other network would have to be the churches came to the fore as well. Churches in the draft civil rights, women, environmental now you see with the gay lesbian thing. So, college campuses and their faith-based community. This seems to be natural. So, for me, I think, for this kind of justice organizing.
47:14
SM: How do you feel about this? This quote, this is another criticism on the generation. And we often hear it. "Only 15 percent of the boomer generation was ever really involved in any kind of activism. And so, we are talking 85 percent, who did nothing." I believe they were all subconsciously affected whether they did something or not, but that is still a lot of people. So, your thoughts on when people use that as a criticism and a lessening of the impact of the boomer generation for good in America.
47:51
MC: I do not know if I buy that. I mean, I do not, you know, I do not know where they got that figure 15 percent. I am not sure what they are getting at. Here is the other way to look at it, but let us go the other side. And that is all it took us to make this big, big difference where it makes it easier to go out and think about who you have to organize if we can do it with just only 15 percent of the population. But I think maybe this might be, this might be an interesting thing I have always wondered. And it was not until after the Pentagon Papers came out, and Dan Ellsberg and we had him talk about, you know, why he did what it did and what he thought about it. And it makes you wonder if it is about, lose my train of thought. If it is about changing hearts and minds. I mean, I remember when I was doing my first organizing, someone said to me, man, do you know how change happens in this country? And I said, no, tell me how it happens. Blah, blah. He said, it is about the changing of hearts and minds, but it is also about at times, partnering that with changing the public policy. And that there are times one gets ahead of the other and here is a classic example, interracial marriage in this country was against the law until we had the chicken in 1967. I graduated high school in (19)60. But in 1967, the famous Loving v. Virginia case out there did finally once and for all put to rest that you could be an interracial couple and get married legally in any state in this country. But that did not mean that the next day after that decision and to 1967 the rule said, Oh, yeah, we did it now. Yeah, it is all right. You can be married and if you are an interracial couple, just the opposite Steve. People hated the idea, but that was when the law got ahead of public opinion. So, I wonder in this country when you have a lot of young but they would call who is all these popular these people out here? You know, rebel rousing there is so few of them. Why are they causing all this? Why are they causing all these problems? But those handful of people, that really, were so dedicated to what they believed in and willing to take the risk and down south, you know, when they said black folk is not going to never make a difference down here. But it did make a difference, Steve. And so, versus the-the final product of what you end up changing, society and attitudes, then I would not I would not go by percentage, I will go by the fact that it did it got done. And sometimes it only happens with a handful of people. I do not know if I am articulating that well or not. But that is hearts and minds, policy, the power of the vote, the power of being in the street, the power of what you believe in.
50:34
SM: What is interesting is that today’s universities are run mostly by boomers, in some and now generation Xers those born after 1982, and so those are the people that are now running today's universities, and a lot of them are boomers that are some of them heading toward retirement, but they are in leadership roles. I am wondering, uh, and this is just the thought based on my experience. But I would like your thoughts, that there is a fear of activism on university campuses, not volunteerism, they want people to volunteer and service learning is crucial and, and they will be everybody will be the first to say, well, that is activism. But activism in terms of 24/7 is-is what I am talking about people whose lives are activists as opposed to giving a certain number of hours a week toward a cause. And, and my thought is that, and I like your thoughts on it is that universities are afraid of activism because it brings to mind what happened in the (19)60s, which is about disruption, stopping of classes. And in this day and age, we know that parents send their kids to college and if anything happens, they will send them take them right out and send them to another school. So, your thoughts on whether universities that actually learn anything about the activism that took part in the (19)60s and-and then in the possible linkage between the leaders that run universities today and the fear of activism itself?
52:09
MC: Well, I would say because I speak on a lot of college campuses I would say, like we say that I do not see anywhere near the level of activism what I saw, you know, back in the day, if I can use that term. In fact, I have been to a couple of campuses, I cannot believe to see where I was told that because they learned so well, from what the demonstrations that have happened in the past, that they were when they were doing building designs and security designs, they would do it in a way that there would be less opportunity for sit ins or taking things over or whatever. Because some of them had learned so well from when people were doing their activism on college campuses. And I thought that was just too ironic. And some of those people were people in the (19)60s who said, oh, yeah, I used to fit in and if you want to make sure that this is sit-in proof, right, this is what you can do but I do not I do not see as much maybe because it has taken a different style and, and this is my take on it but back in the day I was thinking about the film Brother Outsider when there was that one part where he said you had no faxes, you know we had a phone we did not you know, we did not have email and yet we were able to get, you know, quarter of a million people to the mall. And you think about what that took. But nowadays activism is become what do they call it cyber activism or it is just viral you put something out and then everyone across the country gets it at the same time? And is that changing how we protest? Does that change you know, what kind of pressure you bring to bear so you do not have to be out in the street per se? I do not know. But I think it is just an it is certainly is not anywhere near what I saw in my heyday, um, but yet, I would still say campuses have a role to play. But I but I am not in that environment as much.
53:55
SM: There is a, I will get to that question in a second, but there has been writings out there by one or two people that basically said the increase in tuitions, the fact that students have to work to get through college, which was not really the case as much in the (19)60s and (19)70s, has put a burden on students, so they have no time for activism. And that that and that in itself is part of a plan. So, I do not know if I buy all that. But it is interesting that there is some truth because when you look at today's college students, they do not have the time. Yeah. What is one event and your eyes changed the generation forever, that most shaped the lives of them in their adult years is, is there one specific event that that you feel the boomer generation, you know, felt, changed their life more than any other?
54:48
MC: Can I say a couple or just one or - I would say, um, when I think of the boomers, I am counting, well, Kennedy was killed in (19)63. I still think that that I think the Kennedy, I think the Kennedy assassination forever will ever be a benchmark for our generation. The other ones I would say that I would include on if I was doing a list this would be on my list. Woodstock, that just came new. Three Mile Island, Three Mile Island remember but on the other hand, what was the other huge treaty action that was up in, uh, up in New England were all these people got arrested because they were doing anti-nuclear power.
55:35
SM: That was Barragan was at the Barragan, uh.
55:38
MC: No, nope it was uh [dial tone] The Barragan s certainly had a role to play when you think about anti draft and stuff and then being priest but no, this was that big of steam. It was somebody It was a huge [dial tone] on the tip of my tongue. It was up in new way it was up in New England. It was around the power plant and it was the first time I think post-Vietnam and not Central American organizing where we sort of talked about the next big issue was going to be stopping nuclear, uh, weapons and these power plants, I will have that I might have to email it to you if I think of it. But I remember that being because that was one of the biggest civil disobedience actions. Outside of some of the actions we did to sit in against the war in Vietnam, that would be the next kind of big thing. Mm hmm. And then for me, and for the gay community was the 1987. March on Washington in 1987, Steve, where we rolled out the AIDS quilt, and all that went with it, and all we did to organize around that, I think, put the gay and lesbian movement on the map. Mm hmm. Post milk. Those would be the big ones I could think of when I think of the boomer now that is kind of getting beyond the (19)60s. So maybe I am getting out of range there.
56:51
SM: But that is still part of Boomer lives. So, that is important because when we are talking about this, we are not only talking we are talking about when they are young but as they grow as they grow up as they grow. So, this is about the time the boomers were alive. And so obviously, if you believe in evolution and growth and development, these are all important.
57:08
MC: Okay, good. Good. I was not sure if there was like, find a kick back to specific years or not, nope.
57:14
SM: Is there, uh- When did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end? Was there a watershed moment in, in its beginning? And then in its end?
57:26
MC: Well I would, I would, think as for me, when I was thinking about the (19)60s generation and how I did it as being a passivist and being an activist, it literally made I think it and, I do not know, if I say it ended, but I would say that the cutoff time, because remember, all of us were trying to end that damn war. And when that war was declared over in 1973, that was a benchmark because it was like, oh, my God, finally after all these years, and when they declared that, you know, the Vietnam War is over in 1973. Now, this is for me, Steve. I do not know if I can speak for everyone else, but for a lot of It meant that the charge of our lives at that point, would be like someone working in the Civil Rights Movement and you finally end up getting whatever you are trying to get the (19)63 voting rights act or (19)65 whatever. But I remember thinking distinctly when the (19)70s came along, so, in a way, it is also by the calendar, you know, (19)68, (19)69 a lot of stuff going on a (19)69, (19)70, (19)73. And for me, like, I know when I turned what, when did I turn 30, 40? I would have to look at the calendar and think about that, but I do not know. I mean, can I ask you what when did you think it ended?
58:42
SM: Well, I thought the six to me yeah. And again, this is about you, not me, anyways. But yeah, but to me, I was on I was in my first job at Ohio University Assistant Director of Student Affairs, and my very first job and I got a call from friends to come back to the Ohio State campus because students were streaking. [shriek] And, and, and we were talking and they said, well, the age of protest is over. Now students are streaking and that was 1973. [laughter] In the Fall. So, I placed I know that in people's minds, the (19)60s never left for those that were involved, but in terms of what was happening on the university campuses, streaking was the was a main thing because geez, I, I could not believe what I saw and I observed, I had a friend and I was actually teaching at a, was an administrator at a Catholic school in Indianapolis and he was ran a residence hall, and one of his students streaked at this Catholic school. And he was expelled from the school totally he had to leave the university and in the middle of school, so in the spring of the following year, so that is the kind of one the one of the events that I remember I have, I have, I want to read this to you because I think this is important. This is a big issue about healing. Do you feel boomers are still the boomer generation is still having a problem from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, a division between black and white divisions between gay and straight divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds a truth? I preface this, I add something to this and that is that meeting we had when I took students to see senator Muskie and before he, a year and a half before he died, he had just gotten out of the hospital. And the students were really excited about this question we asked him we thought he was going to talk about 1968 nominee divisions at that convention which he was the vice-presidential candidate. And he responded right away that we have not been healed since the Civil War. That was his response. So, just your thoughts on whether this issue of healing, is that important within the boomer generation? Or am I just making something up? That is not important?
1:01:23
MC: No, see, I would go the opposite. I would I would just, I would just I would say, I do not know if that is true. Certainly, I would certainly say, and it is two reasons. I think there is three reasons why we saw we did end the war in Vietnam, and we saw in time that we did have an impact that in fact, we found out that did make a difference that our movement was there. So, to see that conclusion, and no, we worked on it and see that as a conclusion, I think that was something that really was like a validator. I think the fact that we, uh, I think Barack Obama I mean I mean I work the polls here in North Carolina, Steve. And I remember the day that we were voting whether or not Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama is the primary in the state of North Carolina, which was a pivotal moment in his election. And I remember going to the polls that day in North Carolina there is a town, I do not know if you are familiar with this, the area, that has a huge black population that was based on strays moving up here from the south. So, you know that there is a real sense of history and whatever. And I am out here and one of the things I had to do with the poll that day is anyone who could not come into the polls to vote you have to go out they call it curbside voting. Mm hmm. And I went out to one of the curbs that day and there was a 98-year-old black woman sitting in there in her chair and she was in tears. She said, "I thought I would never live to see the day that a black man would become the president of this country." And I believe that the (19)60s generation, like I said, you earlier, saw the fruition of that. And I think a lot we had a lot to play in that in addition to those who came before women who were willing to vote, the right to vote to since the Civil Rights Movement. And so, I think I had I was at peace after I saw this poor woman. I mean, her whole life was her whole family was brought up in the slave area. So, I think for those of the (19)60s generation of anything, we have seen a kind of, um, I would not use the word closure, Steve, but we have seen a, um, coming around the bend and we saw it in our lifetime. I do not know how else you how else you can say that, that you know the impact that we had as a generation. So, that is why I would not agree with that. Now, on the other hand, race relations in this country and I would add class, class struggles continue to be an issue because we continue to be a country of haves and have nots. And that is my concern, as we move on to the future have and have nots, those who have and those who do not and the fact is you have got people living out here in the streets, kids, families with no place to live, and no heat, no call and repay for this fucking war over in Afghanistan, I am disappointed in Obama. And if anything, a lot of us who fought the Vietnam War now have been going around and will oppose him on this one as well. So that is a long way to say no, I think I think we really, I do not think it is a question of feeling as bad that there is still division, if anything, I think we have seen some closure, but also, we have seen a commitment that we are going to keep doing this issue, organizing around equality and justice as long as we are alive. Because we believe in it then and we believe in it now.
1:04:39
SM: You know, one of the things, and, well I am a big Barack Obama fan, I am also against the war. So, he knew that he is going to get criticized for this so much. But one thing about the issue of him that some people have written and I have read that he was just a continuation of the (19)60s generation in terms of the way he thinks the new Left mentality and all that ideology. So, in a sense, some are upset because it kind of brings back the memories of that period. And even though he is a very young man, yeah. That so you believe that? No, I do not believe that at all, but that there are people that do not like him not so much because he is-he is black. It is because of what his politics and his politics reminds people of the new left. I-I, it is just an- I read this in papers. So, I do not know if this is something that shows this lack of healing that that we have always got to go back and find Achilles heel in everyone and everybody I do not I do not know what it is I do not know. I that is just my thoughts. But-
1:05:42
MC: You know what is intriguing to me, I mean, talk about a generational shift. Look how much trouble he got in with the traditional civil rights people. It was like this guy. It made me think, you know, when I hear someone like Jesse Jackson, shame on this man for saying what he said about Barack Obama. It is like You know, Jesse, I love you, you have played a pivotal role, critical role in the Civil Rights Movement. You cannot hang on to this forever generations are going to move without, with, with you or without you. And it is like, you know, is he black enough, you know, is he this enough? And it was it. I mean, there is a generational shift. Now, I think there might be a tension around the generational side of us who were in the (19)60s in the (19)60s, movement, Civil Rights Movement, antiwar movement, are we willing to let it go? Are we willing to say hey, you know, that is what it was now, but you know, times are what they are now, we cannot hang on to this forever? I mean, that Jesse Jackson, to me is the epitome of I had it. I still want it, but life's going on without me anyway. And then he gets a woman pregnant and he is a minister do not even get me started.
1:06:44
SM: Yeah. Very good point. One other major besides the issue of healing is the issue of trust. The boomer generation when they were young, saw major national leaders lie to them and-and of course, we all know about Nixon Watergate, the enemies list, a lot of things that happened there. We know about President Johnson in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. We know about Eisenhower and his lying about the U-2 incident. Even then rich near [inaudible] writings about Kennedy, and how much did he know about the- was he involved in the overthrow the diem regime? And then, of course, Reagan with Iran Contra, towards the end of his presidency and all kinds of evil. People did not trust board they said there was an agreement made between him and Nixon. The list goes on and on. The boomers did not trust people in positions of authority, whether they be a rabbi, a priest, Minister, president of the university and Director of Student Activities, the United States Senator congressman. I mean, what where, where are we today is that equality of this generation and has this lack of trust been passed on to their kids and grandkids. And then-
1:07:58
MC: I think it has, you know, I will tell you what I have to tell you and it is interesting you read that list off because I still do not know who I can trust and who I believe I do not care who it is. I mean every time you turn around and then when you find out this country is willing to do almost anything you know if we made a skeptic I mean, you know, I sat here in Washington for with September 11 but I also sat here and watched is that these people that wish knew got on a plane and got out of here with me who can you trust? Who can you believe? I like it and to me, I would hope that Obama has nothing that we need to worry about but George W. Bush and all those people and-and why am I still listening to-to Cheney and these people I do not trust them as far as you could throw them and I think at least with the (19)60s generation, maybe we have a healthy very healthy dose discussing skepticism because it was, look what we have seen happen. And, you know, I-I will always remain, uh, very, very leery. But with my government tells me and I also believe that once Obama became president it is no longer Obama's a man. There is a machine that runs on up there. That is the machine it runs with you as a person or not. Right? And I, candidate Obama was one thing but now he is president and I am thinking must have walked in and said, Oh, I did not realize I had this to deal with whatever. But no, I will always be skeptical because we have been burned so many times, Steve, and you know, where we find out more stuff later on. Probably we will.
1:09:30
SM: Talk a little bit more about the music and how important the music was, as part of the boomer generation. You talked about Motown but certainly the folk music and the rock music and-and of course, it had social messages, which was very important to Yeah, just and I remember talking to my parents or the World War Two generation, the big band sound is something that they were very loved and very proud of and come to define them but your thoughts on how important how important the music was, and the artists that you feel were the most important in this right?
1:10:04
MC: I just I just think, you know, I was just sitting here thinking about why-why did Motown? Why did Motown have such a pivotal role to play? Well, one of the things that did is that that music was played, that music was played with a lot of white kids that you could not even be in the same room with what was white kids? At least they were dancing to the music and let me that movie. What was the movie? That the guy from Philadelphia did? Oh, my God. My mind is going John-
1:10:30
SM: Singleton. John Singleton.
1:10:34
MC: Oh, no. It was a movie about the old days before America. You only could have white kids on the show, what is it called?
1:10:44
SM: American Bandstand, Dick Clark.
1:10:47
MC: Yeah, no, but there was a show based on that, but it was better was I want to think of it in a minute. But, but I think the point was, is that people were dancing to black music and black music, Steve, was so good. Not only was it a good tune, but you have to remember until people like Marvin Gaye came along with a message most of it was just a good beat. But white kids were dancing to that beat. That is what I guess that I was trying to solve-
1:11:09
SM: Soul Train. Where you talking about the TV show Soul Train?
1:11:16
MC: No. Movie. It was a movie. No, no. I have to eat it down and I have to find it and I will tell you what it is. But anyway, bottom line, it was a story about it was a dance show, like the American Bandstand. But it was all based in Philadelphia. And what happened is that these white kids were asking well why cannot we have black kids come dance with us because all the music that black songs so at one point they were doing it was called the talent show, they had to go to some studio, and one of the white girls bought a black kid in and it costs a real ruckus, but it turned out that all the black kids had to go to do a black place to dance. All the white kids could go to a white place to dance, but at one point kids said "We are going to protest and we are going to come in and dance to what we as we want anyway." Well, that that that one act of defiance, so we are going to dance anyway turn out to be a major thing that made the city realize these the kids could dance together if they want to blah-blah-blah. You know we did not have great songs and it was all the songs you know about era Motown and all that. But what I was saying about the Motown sound was that even though there was a racial issue going on the music ended up being the unifier because it was a good beat. People love to dance to it black or white, it did not matter. And then once they realized that the songs were so great, and it was bringing money, and they were willing to put these black performers out in front of white audiences, and that changed it forever. You know, you got the Motown review and all that. That is what I meant. I am sorry, that was a long way to, right? That you and I think it is.
1:12:51
SM: Yeah, you mentioned Joan Baez, but some who were the folk singers that you felt kind of crossed over. And then of course, some of you mentioned the Beatles, but any other records.
1:13:01
MC: Yeah, well, I would certainly I would certainly I would certainly say that when you think about the Baez, Dylan even before Joni Mitchell, Peter, Paul and Mary, Peter, Paul, and Mary ended up being able to bring some songs into the mainstream that you might that might not have been played otherwise. I mean, even if you think about back to those songs, what folk songs were not being played that did not go mainstream, they are numbered monovision came out in, and St. Marie came out. But you had some people who are Judy Collins, and they are all singing these folk songs, but also in remember used to have coffee houses and where a lot of organizing happen were in the coffee houses before the music industry became a big deal. A lot of a lot of the organizing and the resistance and people doing stuff because there was a folk singer, local people that were not well known, but I would have to tell you, in my opinion, Joan Baez and Bob Dylan will have to go down is in my opinion, but it forever be the voice of the folk scene. The (19)60s I would say Motown music, will have to go down as the sound of the (19)60s. I would say Buffalo, Crosby, Stills, Nash, Joni Mitchell. And then interestingly, Richie Havens, because how many people of color did we have out there that were singing songs of protest and Richie Havens what a performer this man is. So, I am intrigued that you are going to interview him as, and then Jimi Hendrix, you know? Yeah. You know, I think about that, but you know, as people of color, the movement was so white, you know, no disrespect, but it was like, you know, where are our folk man? Where are our people. And other than Motown and Richie Havens, Aretha Franklin, I mean, you know, people of color, but protest, people of color, Richie Havens would be the closest I could think of, right?
1:14:50
SM: Yep. What were some if you can remember what were what were some of the things you were reading back in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Were there any books and authors that really had an influence on you?
1:15:01
MC: Well, a lot of our reading of course, because we are all past this was, you know, Gandhi, you know, leaning on John Fondren. I was trying to think of my reading was people who were talking about the fundamentals of nonviolence. Um, I was not big. I was not really a big reader. There was a couple of magazines that would come out. Before Rolling Stone became so commercial I remember Rolling Stone being out there. I was living in the Bay Area. So, what the Bay Area Guardian I mean, more movement kind of stuff. I was not a big reader, quite frankly, see, so I cannot remember any books that stood out. Oh, I remember when it was called Our Bodies Ourselves that came out about women's health. There was a thing, I still have it. The movement toward a new society by my, uh, Mitchell Goodman, one of the most amazing books ever put out of the (19)60s I have it sitting on my shelf it is falling apart because it is so old, but I remember that.
1:15:57
SM: What is the name of the book?
1:15:58
MC: It is called- it is called, um, The movement of a New America by Michel Goodman.
1:16:12
SM: Oh, I got to, check that out. Yeah. I have come to the part of the interview where I am going to ask you, just your responses to some of these names and some of the terms of the era. They do not have to be long, but just your feelings on them. And the first one is what do you think of the Vietnam Memorial and its impact not only on Veterans, but on America.
1:16:38
MC: Profound. Absolutely profound. That wall, like I said, I think a lot of us who fought the war, it took us forever to finally go down to that wall. And for me, it was it was just realizing how long we had fought against this war and then to go down there and see what was the 58,000 and for what and I knew a number of people on that wall and I was just thinking, What lessons did we learn from this? I mean, that wall is deep for all kinds of reasons. And you know, that is all and the woman who put it together I mean, it would it would it what a gift in-
1:17:16
SM: Maya Lin, yep.
1:17:17
MC: Blew me away.
1:17:20
SM: What does Kent State, what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
1:17:26
MC: Well it, it meant two things for me one is that why did Kent State get more-more play than Jackson State, Jackson State being where black students got killed but on the other hand, it said to me that this country, what length will this country go to and it became very clear that they were willing to kill people. And I just did I could not believe it, that they would be willing to kill people for a policy that that, that people were protesting, but Kent State was I mean, how is that possible? Jackson State How is that possible?
1:17:59
SM: Yeah, I know Kent State that group that puts together the memorial every year. Always make sure that Jackson States involved and they bring people in. Yeah-yeah. So, they are-they are very sensitive and they have been doing that from the beginning. With the media, you are right about how the media often times does things. What does Watergate mean to you?
1:18:21
MC: Ugh Watergate that was just I think, I think for that generation, Steve, Watergate, Watergate to me is sort of like I do not know if I am going to say this, right. It was-it was an awakening for it was an awakening for the country to realize once again to what ways people will go. my innocence was taken from me when Kennedy got [audio cuts] 22nd 1963. I know exactly where I was. I thinking just cannot happen. And I think when Watergate happened in another kind of way that was like this cannot happen and yet it did and then you realize then you wonder why there is such a healthy level of skepticism. And they got caught. That is what it meant to me. They got caught.
1:19:14
SM: Yeah, Woodstock.
1:19:16
MC: Who knew, who knew. I did not go. I had heard about it. But on the other hand, the commercialization of Woodstock, I am done. You know, it is like, okay, it happened and it was and I do not know?
1:19:32
SM: How about, uh, 1968?
1:19:39
MC: When I hear (19)68, I think of two things in my personal life. I went to the Institute for the Study of nonviolence and met Ira Sandperl and Joan Baez. But of course, (19)68 will be Chicago Democratic National Convention, and what would they call the something 8? What they end up being called the folks who got indicted.
1:19:59
SM: Chicago, Chicago, eight and then Chicago, Chicago seven after Bobby went to was taken away from them.
1:20:06
MC: That is right Chicago 7 got yeah, right. Uh-uh.
1:20:10
SM: Yeah, well how about counterculture?
1:20:15
MC: I always thought that was a media term like where did that come from this idea of counterculture. I thought that was more of a media now this is my thing. I thought that was like a media thing. You know, like the counterculture? I am not even sure what they meant by that.
1:20:26
SM: Theodore Rosa, Rosa wrote that book of the called the making of a counterculture which said it, yeah.
1:20:32
MC: I mean, I do not know about this when you look.
1:20:39
SM: How about the-the hippies and the yippies?
1:20:43
MC: Well, I think because I was I remember the hippie thing because I was there. And but the good thing is that-
1:20:48
SM: Your voice just went down.
1:20:49
I am sorry.
1:20:51
SM: Your voice just went down.
1:20:53
MC: Oh, you know, I just picked up the handset. I was getting static. Okay, can you hear me? Yep, I can hear you. Yep. So, The hippies I mean, it is interesting remember I told you when I was in New York in the summer of (19)67 we were called we were not called hippies we were called you know love children we were called love child you know whatever to say I am go to San Francisco and they were called hippies out there but that But that was before that got commercialized. It was little h-i-p-p-i. But then it became, you know, commercial. Yeah. Yippie Was not that what was his name? Abbie-
1:21:24
SM: Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin created the yippies.
1:21:26
MC: So, I did not quite get that. What does that stand for youth and what?
1:21:28
SM: Youth International Party.
1:21:31
MC: Oh, okay. Yeah, I do not even I do not know what that was about. I did not like these two guys. Anyway.
1:21:37
SM: How about SDS Students for Democratic Society and the weathermen?
1:21:42
MC: Well, the SDS that I mean, to me in the early beginnings, when SDS was truly the students for democratic society, I liked it. I do not I do not know what happened where it went off tracks after that. And what was the other thing?
1:21:53
SM: Uh, the Weathermen.
1:21:54
MC: As a pacifist this what the hell were they doing with guns and bombs and look, look what happened and then they did not they probably caught them did not they did not do or what happened?
1:22:07
SM: Yep, Bernadine Dorn and Harris, who was a friend of, um, President Obama, he has remembered- he has been a critical mass, right? That is right.
1:22:12
MC: And they are, you know, and they are again, I have to tell you something, I never shared this with anyone I want to tell you.
1:22:22
SM: Let me change. Let me change. [audio cuts] Okay, go ahead. I am ready.
1:22:32
MC: Speaking of that, I was just saying that again, this idea of violence and destruction to do that for a better read, I remember there was a big debate, Steve around draft board, destruction. Remember, people were going in and pouring blood on draft files. And there was that one case of thing someone either bombed or put on fire some draft board with the files and it was huge debate because we said, you know, what is the point of going in and doing-doing property damage if you are trying to get people not go you know that interesting line of how do you protest? And are you-are you going to be accountable and I remember Steve during stop the draft week and Oakland where we had the Oakland induction center. The first two days we were going to be organized by the War Resisters League which meant it was a non-violent protest we had everything organized and the second part of the week was going to be organized by those who did not have the same philosophy and their attitude was do it but do not get caught and-and do it and do not get caught meant the girls burning tires and we thought you know well here is your let us go use this as an example do it but do not get caught so you have no accountability you are not you do not know why you did it. You are not going to stand up and-and-and-and take the kind of risk and or, the punish- you know, I do not want to use the word punishment but you know, to say that, in jail for 10 days versus like, do it, do not get caught that that was a really dividing line for I think a lot of us in the movement. That is whether underground curiosity like, you know, what is the point.
1:24:11
SM: That, you actually you just created a magic moment. We have had like five magic moments. That is a magic moment. And you just said there, because Dr. King was the one that said, if you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs, then you are, you know, then you shouldn't be out there. And, and it was the Barragan brothers who put blood on nuclear and destroyed draft card, draft papers and everything, but they went there and did it and they were caught and they went to jail for years, because they were willing to pay the price for their actions.
1:24:44
MC: Backed by, big difference, is not it?
1:24:46
SM: Oh, really big difference. How about the Vietnam Veterans against the war?
1:24:51
MC: Unbelievable. I you know, when you think about the fact that vets and we were trying to stop the war that we did not have to have vets, but to have come out of that war, and be called Vietnam vets against war. Unbelievable. And I think that was that would have that would have to go into a category that we never thought that could happen or that was not even on our radar. Think about you have vets who are over there understanding about how that you know what was wrong with the war and look at the role they played, you know, with their role in terms of opposing the first Iraq war, when they said no, it has been there do not did it. Do not do it. But yeah, unique. And thank you.
1:25:30
SM: What did the three most? Well, I think one of the actually these three pictures are, are in the top 100 pictures of the twentieth century, but they were major pictures that oftentimes are looked at-at defining the (19)60s generation. One of them is Tommy Smith and John Carlos raising their fists at the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City. The second one is Kim Phuc. Well, the young girl being burned in Vietnam and that was a 1971 picture. Yeah. And then the third picture was Mary Ann Vecchio the 14-year-old girl over the body of Jeff Miller at Kent State on May 4, 1970. What, when you think of those three pictures? What do you think of?
1:26:15
MC: Well first of all, I am stunned that you did not have [inaudible] lie on that list.
1:26:18
SM: Well, I you know, me I am, yeah. Get the picture of the certainly the people the dead bodies that me lie to so you can add that.
1:26:31
MC: Yeah. Well, first of all, each one of those to me, ended up being and we did not know at the time those photographs ended up being turning points in our movement. I was each one of those who just said, they are like, they are just like seared in my memory. And-and then I realized just how powerful a picture is worth 100 words, 1000- whatever word you want to use. They just tear it. You did not. You did not even have to say anything. You just look at these pictures and you realize they are their icon, iconic. We are on it. Yeah, yep.
1:27:01
SM: I am going to mention some names here in a minute. But I want to mention three quotes too. And I would like your thoughts in terms of which one made define the boomer generation more than the other, or if all three define the generation. One of them is the one that Malcolm used all the time by any means necessary, through all those posters but he, he went to his grave with that statement, even though he had gone to Mecca, coming back and saying that all white people were devils by any means necessary. The second one is Bobby Kennedy, who I think he took Henry David Thoreau's quote, but it was you do some men see things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not. And a lot of people remember that from Bobby. And the third one is just from the painter, Peter Max, who is well known artists of that era. And he had a very famous painting that a lot of college students put on their wall and on that painting said you do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, or we will come together. Now those are three different statements from three different kind of angles. Is anyone define the boomer generation more than the other? Or are the is it a combination of all three?
1:28:15
MC: Well, I have to tell you, I really, I really take exception to Malcolm X is one of by any means necessary, correct? That puts me the back in that, you know, do not get caught. That is me. That is my personal thing. Bobby Seale, I had issues with as a person so I probably go with the latter, but I do not remember that that well that latter one. The third one-
1:28:34
SM: Yeah that was Max's posters. Yeah. I am going to mention some names now and just your response to them as people. Okay, and then from the era. Amie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin.
1:28:52
MC: We will know them, certainly, I do not know. I mean, you know, I mean, if I had to go on a scale of yes, I like them a lot or not. I mean, I do not know. I mean, I did not know him personally, and I, you know, I am sure they had a role to play. I do not know, I am not I am not impressed. I do not know what else to say.
1:29:15
SM: Let us get into the Black Panthers. And because there is five or six of them here, and of course, there is Elijah. There is Eldridge Cleaver. There is Kathleen cleaver. There is Huey Newton. There is Bobby Seale. There is Angela Davis. The- one of course that was assassinated in in Chicago and just that, and of course, Stokely Carmichael, and H. Rap Brown, they are all black panthers.
1:29:39
MC: Well, the only two I will tell you, I will tell you what, how many of them are still alive?
1:29:45
SM: Well, I know that H. Rap Brown's alive. He is in jail. Yeah. And Bobby Seale is alive. Mm hmm. And so is Kathleen, she is a lawyer in Atlanta, a very successful lawyer. So, uh.
1:29:58
MC: She was Just here and Durham. I would say of all of them may course I am still concerned about the male thing. If I had to put a sympathy level on things, I mean, when I say sympathy if I had to put a level on, you know, okay. I do not know I have I have a lot of respect for Kathleen Cleaver and Angela Davis. This is women within the Panthers.
1:30:27
SM: Yeah, okay. How about Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
1:30:33
MC: You know what they have they actually ended up playing [audio cut] into these two people, they probably without realizing it has brought us on more. If I could say it that way, Steve. They really ended up being motivators. And then we saw of course in the end, why? Yeah.
1:30:55
SM: But they motivated because they were bad.
1:30:59
MC: Oh, yeah. When people would win We were on a roll about what to do about what was happening with this war and Richard Nixon and remember when he got elected and-and, and what was like, you know, unprecedented numbers it did not then we realized it did not matter how many people voted for you, you were still a crook and you were still bad and you were wrong and-and we saw what happened. He had to leave office. I mean, talk about a defining moment. And what-what happened to Agnew, did not he go off to jail, what happened to him?
1:31:24
SM: He got indicted. He never went to jail. But yeah, if I saw him was at Nixon's funeral, he was on TV, and he was walking around like no one wanted to talk to him. [laughs] He never I think he paid-paid a penalty, but I do not think he ever went to jail. But you do Gene McCarthy and George McGovern.
1:31:43
MC: Well, I think you know, I have to tell you, just real quick, I think for a lot of people, there was a lot of people who said do not bother to vote, it does not make a difference. And I think between Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern, a lot of us who were told do not vote, it does not make a difference, people begin to turn toward electoral politics as another tool for possibly making change because up until then it was all in the street. Mm hmm. It was a protest, but people begin to realize maybe the importance of the vote and-and Eugene McCarthy and McGovern probably did more to seal that as another avenue of protest, the power of the vote.
1:32:20
SM: Timothy Leary and Daniel Ellsberg.
1:32:25
MC: I knew them both and I got to work for Timothy Leary, of course, LSD. You know, I have to tell you, though, I took one trip and I did was only did not last long because I could not handle it. But I always wondered what the what the impact of LSD was on our society. I do not know if it was good. I am not so sure that it was good. Was the he was, you know, part of that scene? And Denver? What can I say the Pentagon Papers, I still know Dan to this day? And-and if anything, I think it showed me Steve that you can reach someone. You know what Daniel Ellsberg did for the movement after we realized the role that he played meant that you could not write anyone off that you never knew who you could impact and if you if you just told people you do not count, you will never matter we do not like you. If you do not leave an opening for them you do not know the consequences. And look what happened with Daniel Ellsberg.
1:33:15
SM: You are right. You are right and a lot of people and I learned something later that he was a very proud marine. Yeah, when he was young. and that is what-
1:33:26
And that was what was so amazing about this man when you think about the life he led, but look, and look at the impact of what happened with him and the people he met and just hearing stories of people's lives and that was a lesson and I know for a lot of us passivist type. We have always been told you never shut the door on people you never know whose life will impact but a lot of the movement was angry in trust. And you never gave anyone space to say that I can change or I have a role to play and then only to find out and you know, who was Daniel Ellsberg before he did that he was just a guy working at Rand unite. Right? And look at the role this guy played unbelievable.
1:34:00
SM: How about John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy?
1:34:07
MC: You know, there was a theory KKK Kennedy, King, Kennedy, I remember hearing that I was sitting in on the mall in resurrection city. That was the last project King was working on with the poor people's campaign. Kennedy had killed in Spiro Agnew (19)63, King had been killed. And we were sitting in the mall and we heard about Bobby Kennedy and I am thinking someone wanted these people gone. On the other hand, the Kennedy, the Kennedy thing I mean, as a woman, I am done with these men messing around. Cannot they keep it in their pants? What is the deal? You know? So, you find that out that out about a guy but for all intents and purposes, he was the president as I knew a man and he got assassinated and-and all that but you know, I do not know Kennedy's are not like walking on water for me, but yet that was this I think our innocence was taken from us with-with the first one not
1:34:58
SM: Bobby but with john F. Kennedy. How about Lyndon Johnson and Hubert Humphrey?
1:35:04
MC: Well, I guess the more we find out about Lyndon Johnson, you know, you get to know on the other hand, I would say that in terms of the Civil Rights Movement, what a pivotal role this man played. And as a white guy from Texas that does sit there and do the stuff he did, without knowing all the background, but look at the role he played down in the Civil Rights Movement stuff. And I know he did not, he had a lot of flak for that, but it turned out to be historic. who was the other person?
1:35:31
SM: It was Hubert Humphrey.
1:35:34
MC: I do not know much about Hubert Humphrey. I do not remember anything that really stuck out in my mind about him.
1:35:40
SM: How about Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan.
1:35:45
MC: Well, I just remember Goldwater, you know, just thinking of Republicans and you know, and then he kind of scared me because I remember when he was when he was running, there was some race stuff going on, or some folks were right. Ronald Reagan was interesting, because like, I remember asking, how does the governor and how does the former movie star remember does the former movie store become the governor of California before he becomes president? And I remember Ronald Reagan for one key reason People's Park Ronald Reagan governor sent in sent in in the-the we call those state the tanks into Berkeley. Right? And I said once again well this is this this country has no shame.
1:36:25
SM: He is directly linked to the Free Speech Movement to at Berkeley and (19)63, (19)64 because he was the governor then so the battle when-
1:36:35
MC: He had the right is some of the most tumultuous moments in Berkeley. So, when government Reagan was governor but people spark will forever I remember that why are we having tanks and people with bayonets and-and the park around this damn piece of property? But let me share something with you Steve. Remember we said earlier about do it but do not get caught. Mm hmm. I remember I remember it was Mayday being called whoever these people were calling for people to come take that fence down. This is when you had National Guard in tanks with bayonets drawn wire around that piece of property there in Berkeley. And you had these organizers telling people to come in down here and take this fence down. And I remember the night before the war resisters league and Roy Kepler said we have to have an emergency meeting. We were going to stand in between the protesters in front of us, the barbed wire behind us and the National Guard behind us to make sure no violence happens on this day. And we that Steve and my knees were knocking I will never forget that day as long as I live. And the biggest compliment we got as pacifists, we heard people say, Oh, man, we could have done something that those damn pacifists had not gotten in our way. That was one of those moments and all the guys would tell people to go down and take their takedowns where would they you could not find them for nothing. They were not around. Wow. And I thought can you put people's lives in jeopardy you are calling for these people to go take that fence down. Maybe you could not find them if you could try and I thought this is so irresponsible. But we ended up being able to not have a violent action on that day because of us to intervene as pacifist between the National Guard behind us and the protesters in front of us at Berkeley in People's Park.
1:38:12
SM: I remember the book that called Berkeley at war written by [W. J] Rorabaugh it is a great book. And that is all in there. Yeah, Dr. Benjamin Spock and Daniel and Philip Barragan.
1:38:26
MC: Thank you Dr. Spock, who knew that a guy who worked as baby book and there you go again, the guy who wrote the book on having babies and what you do with babies and look at the role he played and the Barragan brothers to be Catholic priest to do what they did go to jail and I think for a lot of people they really created this whole wonderful faith based kind of understanding the role of people of faith in any movement we have they really they-they sealed it and symbolized it and but did not want to do that went to jail to that ended up marrying one of the Barragan’s, we do not know about her.
1:39:01
SM: Yeah no, we do. She runs Jonah house in Baltimore, Elizabeth McAllister, she is.
1:39:07
MC: Elizabeth McAllister, for a lot of women, once again, no disrespect to Dan and the two guys, but for a lot of women, it was her as a woman and as a nun doing that, you see what I mean? I think people are forgetting the role of how important women are when you do these things to have a role in that some of that stuff.
1:39:26
SM: One of the one of the important things because I have met, I was at the funeral for Philip. I went there because he was spoke on our campus with Elizabeth and so did Daniel and I have interviewed Daniel for my book here, and that is that they respected women and women and Catholic nuns were as important as Catholic priests in the movement and I have not seen any sexism or anything. On the part of those two men. Because when Philip was there, oftentimes Elizabeth was there. And sometimes when Philip went to jail. Then Elizabeth took care of their three kids. When Elizabeth went to jail. He took care of the kids so it is absolutely yeah.
1:40:04
MC: And by the way, I did not mean anything. I did not mean to be [inaudible] them. I think what happens is that, once again, the media what they tend to just remember I told you about Cesar Chavez and it is weird stuff is that when they are writing their pieces, rather than being rare than them getting it like you just talked about, they always end up defaulting toward only talking about the man. Good. That is all. I mean, I am sorry. I cannot be. Yeah.
1:40:29
SM: Well, there is truth to that. Robert McNamara and George Wallace.
1:40:34
MC: But the thing I love about McNamara toward the end of the day when he when he was not it recently, where he ended up thinking when he asked, he said, I made a mistake. And McNamara was one of the people that we kept on saying you were so wrong about the Vietnam War policy, he would not back off it. But then as we saw Time went by and he said, you know what, I think I might have been wrong on this. So, there you go again, but how many years that we have to wait to hear that knowledge and George Wallace. You No. for me and I think our generation who can forget George Wallace standing in the door of town and Alabama saying is not no nigger coming through these doors at this high school, right? And at the same time when he got shot and he was in a wheelchair and very woman, he said that too. They stood together and I was in tears on that picture and I thought about whether he was sincere or not. That just showed you that a thing called the civil rights movement in which people would be murdered. Just for the right be equal. Here is this white Southern man and a chair apologizing to the very woman is saying I am sorry. And then you have Jesse Helms here in the North Carolina never once apologized, even into the death. Fringe, and they are both gone now, but [inaudible] yep.
1:41:51
SM: The other things are just the presidents and boomers’ lines, which is Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford. Just your thoughts on those two presidents.
1:42:00
MC: Well, Jimmy Carter, a southern peanut farmer to become president, that was that was like, oh, and who was the other person? Gerald Ford? I was like, What the hell? I mean, how did he get in there? I mean, man who knows? But he was-was not he like an orphan? What was he? I mean, I could relate to him because listen, he like adopted or something.
1:42:21
SM: Not quite sure. I know that took obviously, he pardoned Nixon, which did not go over but Pete that one? No, it did not go about, you know, what was going on with that people think he did it, though. He did help and healing the nation by doing so. So, it is a controversial moment.
1:42:37
MC: Everything is controversial. And he kept on falling a lot. Did not he fall? Yes. And-
1:32:44
SM: He hit people with golf balls. A couple of other presidents George Bush Senior. He was the gentleman who said that the Vietnam syndrome is over. And of course, we are not talking about Reagan. But Reagan. Reagan said we are back. We are going to build the army up again. America is back. We are going to love Living in America where we did not supposedly in the (19)70s in the (19)60s, so both George Bush Senior and Reagan both played a part in this, what they think was the ending of the Vietnam syndrome.
1:43:13
MC: Right? Well, I remember being scared to death of Bush Senior because he was once head of the CIA. What do we think of the CIA? We said, this is the guy that president of this country, he scared me.
1:43:23
SM: And the last two are, of course, our Bill Clinton and President Bush Jr. And I say this because in my interviews, not the early interviews, I did not include them. But in the latter interviews that I have had this year, in the last couple years, I have said, most people say that when you look at Bill Clinton and George Bush, they-they epitomize the boomer generation, with the qualities about who they are. When people say that what do you think the qualities that these two men have that label them boomers?
1:43:54
MC: Well, that is interesting, because I would have to say on first glance, I remember I did say that, put it in would end up being like our first sixties Example of because he was the first guy that never served in the military. He was the first guy. You know, literally the president of this country because it was so that was almost a way you could judge about the (19)60s kind of going on. Is that because he was the first president, post (19)60s generation? So, that is-that is kind of what I meant. On the other hand, I do not I would not put him together with that. I mean, when I think about the (19)60s, I, you know, he was not what was he doing? He was not around. Hillary was not around, I guess what Hillary was doing some stuff. So, that is what I meant about my memory. But, you know, I remember working on his campaign and after, after, after, what did he come right after Reagan. Right. Bush came in.
1:44:43
SM: George Bush, he came after senior George, Bush Sr.
1:44:42
MC: Yeah, I remember working hard and thinking about the fact that we would get someone and the reason why right. The reason why I am quitting stood out because he was the first president willing to talk to the gay and lesbian community and having them having us be a part of his campaign. I thought that is amazing. And a lot of rested on Clinton and I loved him until many Monica Lewinsky and I thought he is just like every other guy out there. That was disappointing. But, you know, Clinton had a really pivotal role to play. He was there for eight years from the south. Again, by this time I am in North Carolina. So, yeah.
1:45:15
SM: And George Bush himself, you do not like him, but what were qualities that may link him as a boomer because he is a boomer.
1:45:24
MC: So, you know what is interesting, but you know, let us look at the difference between and George W. Bush, Jr. There is a qualitative difference right there. The top has not have nots. And that was interesting about Bill too, you know, coming from a family where it is basically his mother raised me down south, he does not have a whole lot of money, he is bright. And then you look at someone like George W. Bush and I worked in Florida, by the way, Steve in the 2000 election campaign. And this man was never elected. He was selected by one vote, and I will never forget that this man should never have been president. And Florida was it was a disaster. And, and I am just glad he has gone. I do not you know, and I would never put it I would not ever say he is a person of the (19)60s. I mean, he might have been born in that time, but not his lifestyle, not the way this guy was raised. Well, I want to-
1:46:16
SM: My final questions is just about you, because I am what makes you continue to do what you do knowing that throughout your life, some of the things that you stood up for, you have been some people look at you as a threat, or they do not. They do not like you for some reason, and how have you been able to deal with it? You have a lot of supporters and some people are not supporters. But I have a question here. I can read my writing here. You created the National Black Justice Coalition, which is for black LGBT individuals to fight racism and homophobia was-was there resistance in the black community? To you like there was toward Dr. King when he had many members of the African American community mad at him because he was against the Vietnam War. He saw the bigger picture whereas some of the other civil rights leaders said you got to concentrate on racism you cannot concentrate. So, you just-just your thoughts on that question and in any way, you respond?
1:47:22
MC: Well, first of all, I am really glad that you highlighted that about King because I think a lot of people missed under-, missed that point that this was such a romanticizing about, about Martin Luther King, that when he took that, what I would proceed, he just positions- he has ever took in his career was to say we have to look beyond civil rights and what is going on with that war in Vietnam. He took hell. And like you said, People said do not do it, do not go there and he was willing to do it. And I am not a conspiracy, I am not a conspiracy theorist, Steve, but the death of this man down in Memphis, Tennessee, helping the garbage workers down there. You have to wonder who had it out for who, that is what I meant about. I do not know who to trust anymore. But I know that he took a lot of flak, because they said, you know, do not go there. On the other hand, I think that was interesting because King was the bridge in a way, Steve, now that I think about it. Remember I told you said a lot of us were too young for the Civil Rights Movement, but old enough for Vietnam? Yes. So, who was who was the bridge builder on that? It was Dr. Martin Luther King when he gave this famous speech at the church up in Harlem. Mm hmm. I mean, the-the church up in New York Riverside Church when he gave this famous Vietnam, yep. And I think there was a generation of folks that said, you know, I was not down south, here is a man talking about Vietnam and then we would not take it off and went running with it. So, I just say that because I was just thinking historical links that be it but you know, it is what is interesting for me is like, I think part of it is because I was orphaned I have nothing I have to lose about being out as a black lesbian. And for those of us who have nothing to lose, I do not care what people think about me I have things I have got to say and try to get the work done. I am now 62 I have never had my life threatened but I have had people tell me I am terrible and I am awful.
1:49:16
SM: Mm hmm.
1:49:17
MC: But when I think about when I started talking about that a long time ago and where we are now, and thinking how far we have gotten when you have a black man who has the five national co-chairs for his campaign, who are out lesbians working on his campaign to get him elected called Barack Obama and I am one of them. Look how far we have come did we ever think that would ever happen so for me my work is easier everyday this slips by not-not let it does not get worse it gets- people are getting it now.
1:49:50
SM: Well I will tell you one thing one thing after reading the information on your background longevity is part of your legacy. It is ongoing commitment, and I would like you to make a few comments on the, uh, song, the organization that you work for, how it was started, and how it is going, and what and what it is doing for others and a little bit about that Stonewall award, did you receive that? Define, you know, because it was given to us. So, a song first.
1:50:18
MC: Well, you know, as to you know, there was a great quote, and I and I am not the only one who has made it, Steve, but I know this has always been Remember I said it earlier about the equality and justice being the philosophical underpinning about why a lot of us hang in so long. That has always been that has always been what has driven me is equality and justice for all. But the other quote that I love Steve, that keeps me going is "Do not mourn, organize. And if there is a need, fill it".
1:50:44
SM: Wow. Mm hmm.
1:50:49
MC: We saw when I you know, living here in the south, I have never seen so much anti science with movement people. Then, then when I moved to the south, I mean, we are talking about my people, gay and lesbians. We are organizing our first conference here, this is how song got started. We were organizing a gay and lesbian conference to the gay and lesbian taskforce. They do an annual conference called creating change every year. And this year because of another side law that they decided for the first time ever in 1993, to have that conference here in Durham, North Carolina. And a lot of us got together and said, here, I was with the warrior sisters League, and I said, yeah, we will help organize it. And so here is the phone call, we started getting, well, is there an airport down there? Are the roads paved? What kind of food we going to eat? And I am saying, wait a minute. These are people coming to our conference down in Durham, North Carolina.
1:51:43
SM: Mm hmm.
1:51:48
MC: And the final one was, where are the roads paved? And I said, Well, maybe we better do a workshop about what it means to be of color. Queer, in the South and that workshop was so well attended back in 1990. That became the foundation of what is now called southerners on new ground, right? Because we were trying to connect the issues of race and class and culture and gender and sexual identity. And understanding that all those isms are so connected and that when we do our work, we will be equally as concerned about gay and lesbians in the south as we would people who are farmworkers down here. And that became the foundation that would now is in our 15th year, and we are still going.
1:52:28
SM: That is excellent. And then the Stonewall award, you received that and what was the criteria? And how did you respond when you heard about it? And what does it mean to receive that award?
1:52:42
MC: Well it is quite an honor. I think the Stonewall would have to be put on the level of you know, if you get the Nobel Peace Prize, I do not know if you wanted to try to put something you know, close to what it would be. The Stonewall award was always given to people who were doing work in the queer community that really was that they recognize it acknowledged it and I think the first one I got I think it was 10,000 $5,000 check. Remember, it was a chunk of change, but it was really more of the acknowledgement um, it was surprised to me quite frankly because like a lot of people I just do the work because I know it has to get done. So, I am not interested in or not thinking about am I going to get acknowledgement for it, but to have been, and they do not tell you in advance, you are going to get it in fact, I came home to a FedEx package and in it-it said, dear Miss Carter, we want to tell you that, you know, we want to congratulate you on getting one of the five Stonewall awards. And there is a check enclosed and it was you know, whatever [audio cuts off]
1:53:41
SM: Just tape just click here you go, go ahead.
1:53:46
MC: Oh-
1:53:47
SM: You got the award. You were just it was just the point where you were saying you have got the award because-
1:53:52
MC: Oh, because they just get that there is an anonymous you do not know you are going to get it and you get nominated for it and the only way you know you have gotten it is when they send you a letter of congratulations and a check. And so, I came home one day I was living up in Maryland. I came home one day and there was a FedEx package waiting for me and I opened it up and, and it was a letter saying, dear Miss Carter, and we want to acknowledge and tell you, you know, congratulations, you are one of the five. Mm hmm. It is the Stonewall award and it was a check. I think it was for $10,000 I think. So, what I was saying though, Steve, is that I a lot of us do this work. You do not do it because you are going to get anything for it. But it is nice when you get the acknowledgement and recognition it was just came out of the blue.
1:54:39
SM: The I forgot to ask you what you thought of Gloria Steinem, Bella Epps, Betty Friedan, Shirley Chisholm, some of the leaders of the women's movement.
1:54:51
MC: Thank goodness for these women. I mean from so many of them, they are such role models. I just think about I know for me as a as a young woman, Black feminist lesbian and you are out here looking for other women who were strong and strident and believe in with their cause was just wonderful, amazing women and the roles that they played the cursory and someone like Gloria Steinem I think is already just turned 70 she was just here and look with this woman did Bella ABS suck, you know, elected official and feisty as can be, and Shirley Chisholm, black, you know, and, and, and it is just awesome. Now, I will tell you this, Steve, I think one of the qualities that I loved about these women is that they always said, it is not about me, you can be doing this too and you should be doing this and the ability to impart that kind of go out there and get this done. I did not see a whole lot of men saying that. Men do it more better now. But the women were just so much more into passing it on and you can do it and go for it and-and oh my gosh.
1:56:01
SM: That is a real that is a really good point. Because in Dr. Martin Luther King speeches, he would you know, he I know, I wish I had him in the room today to ask him what he feels about Martin Luther King Day because I think he would be very honored and very pleased, but if he had not been assassinated. And we are still in his (19)80s today and alive. I he has- he always said it was about we not me. Yeah, that is it. And what you are saying is that women leaders have always been saying, itis about we not me, were some of the male leaders in the early on, not so much all of the day, but were-were more about their own prestige and power. Is that- am I giving that right?
1:56:43
MC: Yes absolutely, yes-yes. Right. And you know, and I think part but I think it is a two-way problem. I think the media, and once again, I mean, the media it is just so interesting to me, I have gone to Germany. It is the only time I have ever been out of I have been to Germany and Zimbabwe. And what is so fascinating to me that this media is so personality driven? So that, you know, maybe you have been a demonstration, and you will hear the media come up and go, well, who's your spokesperson? Mm hmm. You know, versus Can I just talk to someone here about why you are here. And so, the media seems to be this obsession of who is-who is-who is-who is your leader. And of course, if you say, you are a leader, and people think, well, let us kill this person, because we get rid of them. We get rid of the movement that when I said earlier, no, it is not about killing anyone or offing any one or doing something to any one person because what you believe in is so dispersed with the people doing the work, that that movement goes on with or without you, because you have stood these values and women have, I think women have always gotten that instinctively. See, so their style is a lot more of Louis. You know, so and I just appreciate that. Oh, and I think but that is changing even now. I mean, you know, there is so much tough the young people today, and what you will get is like to scan lesbian thing. That is why we are making so much progress, I believe it is like, you know, what is the big deal? Who cares? You know, how am I identified? You know, who am I? And, and then Obama you know he is multiracial. Now you have got kids who are tri-racial and quad-racial and family being defined and we are in an amazing historic moment. I am so glad I have lived long enough to see all this. I am just I am just every day I get wake up. I am blown away.
1:58:25
SM: Well, I think that one of the magic moments in my life was when he was elected, then it back because to me, it was very special. And it is not always just because he is African American. I, I am so happy that they have seen that in my lifetime. But it is because of who he is and what he stands for and how articulate he is. And yes, he is the first ever I but peeps. What really astounds me is how people continue to try to find the Achilles heel in him constantly. And I think that is because they are upset that he won. Yes, I think it is-it is about they are jealous. They are-they are just plain jealous of him. And how could this happen? And many, many people who may have been against all these efforts back in the (19)60s and (19)70s, who are now boomers or younger, you know, but especially boomers, they can understand the battles that all groups have gone through. Finally, you know, a lot of the efforts are, are successful, some any, what do you think the lasting legacy when the best history books are written on the boomer generation, what the lasting legacy will be when they talk about this generation, and I mean, a generation, you know, as someone said to me, someone told me once they thought boomer generation was about white men. Well, I am talking I am trying to in this book to make the argument about everybody who was a boomer, right, whether-
1:59:54
MC: I would have to say I think I think that our generation will go down as the generation of hope. And I think our generation will go down as a generation of change. And sort of articulating more than that. I mean, I am just thinking back what I said, Steve to be in a generation in which we saw such-such a way to come into with the killing of the president and then you know, King and all that credible social movements that are going on and we-we sustain them. We show that, despite money and power and all that everyone to at us to stop us from stopping a war and also just corruption within the government. We saw that through. And I think the fact that we saw I was thinking about this with King and in fact, Coretta Scott King, lived long enough, no, wait, when did Coretta Scott King die? Was she? I do not think.
2:00:49
SM: Two years ago. I think she died in 2007.
2:00:52
MC: Yeah, because I mean, the fact the fact that you had a family and who they represented and who would know that when King gave his famous speech now of course with the "I Have a Dream" today, um, that Obama and understanding Obama did something amazing to me because I was supporting Hillary from day one. I wanted a woman in there really badly and I think that is going to happen sooner or later but I think history was right and we got Obama. But Obama did something amazing and maybe just swept people off. He said I am not I did not get this because I am a Barack Obama, I got here because of naming the names, you know, all the women and the people who had to fight for everything they had, as first citizens of this kind. I think people are either jealous of it. Do not believe that he could just be sincere. Like, you know, is he for real? Yeah, yeah, he is for real. And, and to realize that and for you and I to see the fruition of that. It was just amazing. Steve, I look up some times and I had to pinch myself and said this really happened.
2:01:51
SM: It is-it is almost like and again, I-I never met Dr. King, but I have read an awful lot about him. In fact, when I am done with this book, I want to do another book just on him, which is going to be an oral history on the Vietnam War and his decision to make that I just want that and interview people just on that issue alone, because not enough has been done. But he, he was the one we did a program in Westchester University where I brought Lynn Washington in and Dr. Megan Kate, a professor at Villanova. And we talked about we were not going to talk about the Big Four, on Dr. King Day, we were going to talk about the unsung heroes of the movement, the people who had died, whose names we will never know, and how important they were in the movement. It was like we were just like you said, there, you get on somebody else's shoulders you get on somebody else's shoulders. It is not about me, it is about we I do not care if my name is ever known, but I did my small part in that moving something forward. So that was, you have made some very important points here. One, one thing, one last question is, is there anything That you thought I was going to ask in this interview that I did not. And you would like to say something or as-
2:03:08
MC: I guess, I guess what I would say there is two things that I was thinking about knowing you were going to do this interview one of them. To me, Steve is the interesting demographic shift in this country. Mm hmm. And they say roughly between 2040 and 2050, this country movie majority people of color. That is profound. And, and I just wonder, when you think about that, 2040, 2050 I just, I just turned 62. I will be 62 this year, so I will still be around. But I am just wondering the impact of the (19)60s generation where I thought, the racial divide, but I thought I saw a lot of getting it about the equality thing across gender, certainly across orientation and color. I have a feeling that maybe the (19)60s generation people of our era might have a really important role to play when that transition continues to play. play out, you know, with more and more color, not less. So that might be something down the line to think about, you know, it is just what is what does that mean? What-what has that meant? So that was one thing. The other is just I think this interesting thing of what I seen were in a way the degeneration of the (19)60s really had a profound impact on our what we now see as our amazing, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender movement. I it is just-it is just astounding to me how fast this is, how fast this is happening. But a lot of the people who are at the forefront of this were people who came out of that antiwar movement who were lesbian, gay, out visible. And, and at the time, were told what was that got to do with anything and here we sit now with a lot of us out here being on the front lines of what I would perceive-
2:04:47
SM: So, you are, you are pretty, so my guess is you are pretty proud of the boomer generation gay and lesbian, America.
2:04:56
MC: My Gosh! Absolutely.
2:04:57
SM: Because that is important because that when I talk about that Boomer generation now I am talking about not only black and white and yellow and red and different ethnic groups from male gender male female but also sexual orientation It is important because they are all part of the boomer generation at it yeah and that is and some people have been disappointed in the boomers because so many went on to raise families make a lot of money and then just forget everything. And others have continued like yourself the longevity but overall, you think the boomer gay lesbian Americans have done quite a bit?
2:05:31
MC: Oh my god, absolutely no doubt about it. Just pivotal, my opinion pivotal and-and, you know, willing to be out there and be visible and the same thing with the women's movement as well. I mean, they that those I think those two movements came out of the antiwar movement, women's movement, bisexual transgender movement. Yeah. And we and here we are still doing it.
2:05:50
SM: So that is excellent. Well, if you have any suggestions of other names of individuals that you see I think would be a good interview. For this project so you can email me. Yeah. And I, you know, I know that when I when I interviewed David Harris, I said, can you get me to interview Joan Baez and all he well he is divorced from her now but still very close to her. You know? Yeah, he lives I think their child they live together in a house in Mill Valley. So, some of the key things in Joan Baez is one I would love to interview and but any of the other I sent a letter to Eleanor Smeal and Gloria Steinem and I remember the person I interviewed on Monday. Well, Gloria Steinem does not do many interviews, so you are lucky if you get anything with her, but-
2:06:39
MC: Ellie Smeal does, she is up there with the feminist majority. I am surprised she heard back from her.
2:06:44
SM: Now I have not heard from her I sent like, these are emails. I have been doing everything by email. And I am not sure sometimes secretaries even pass these on to. So, I emailed Gloria Steinem and I emailed them. Eleanor Smeal, and I asked David but David just simply said she is too busy. David Harris, for Joan Baez. And so, but there may be other people I am missing here. And so, if you put your thinking cap on about people, not only the gay and lesbian community, but female leaders who would be great to head because right now about I would say about 70 percent are men and 30 percent are women. A lot of a lot of the women like Phyllis Schlafly and Linda Chavez and conservatives, I did not get a response from them. So, some people just do not respond by Janet Snark, a female Vietnam vet on the board she did not respond to there is some people that, you know, I am making the effort, but I need more female voices. So, no question.
2:07:41
MC: Let me think about that. And I have your contact info. Steven. So, let me let me think about that and try to send you some folks that I might know. That would be great. Like I said, you know, as we saw out of that movement, we saw the feminist movement, the women's movement, whatever and off and on either side of the sense, but I am also thinking women of color as well. You know some yeah.
2:08:00
SM: That cat free. I have not. I am going to be interviewing Christy Kiefer, I have that link, Sam. I got her because she is on the list and there is some Professor Roma. I have Pauline Roma do not ever name for she is in San Francisco State. She hasn't responded yet. That was another list. I certainly sent an email to Angela Davis. I have not got a response from her.
2:08:21
MC: But yet.
2:08:22
SM: Now, but Bettina Aptheker, I am going to interview her in January because she is coming back east Anna for five months, because I guess she is on sabbatical and she is going to be teaching at Columbia so I can, uh, interview her in person as opposed to on the phone. But-
2:08:42
MC: Where are you located?
2:08:43
SM: I am in Westchester, Pennsylvania, right outside Philadelphia, and I am about same age that you are I graduated from SUNY Binghamton in 1970. I was a history major. Then, then I went off to Ohio State to grad school and student personnel in higher ed and my advisor was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, a 29-year-old African American male from Southern Illinois University, University of Illinois, Champaign Urbana, and he had a tremendous impact on my life in grad school because our graduate program was all about, you know, the-the issues that were going on between black and white Americans at that time. And so that is kind of my specialty area. I am involved with those issues. My whole life. And-and he is, he has been at Johns Hopkins University for quite a few years, and I believe he is just retired. So, I kind of stay in touch with him every year. We go to lunch. Okay, so he has been an inspiration along with my parents, but yeah, but this is I love history. I loved interviewing people and I love interviewing people. I feel comfortable with everybody. Yeah-yeah, because you know, but I feel comfortable with Vietnam vets, I feel, yeah, I just I love doing this and it is, and I would have left my university position to work on this to make you know, to continue the process. And hopefully young people will read this and they will learn from it because it is all about modeling.
2:10:06
MC: I think it is great.
2:10:08
SM: Okay, well, um, I guess that is it.
2:10:11
MC: Okay. Well, I just want to-
2:10:14
SM: Go ahead.
2:10:16
MC: I just cannot hear you. I am getting feedback. Can you still hear me? Yes. Huh. Okay. But I wanted to say to you is that I think your timing is awesome, because I was sitting here thinking is that as we keep on aging on in our memories is so crisp and clear, but the best, honing in on this, I just think it is wonderful. It is fantastic. And I love the question asking, and I just, I just feel like you are, you know, I do not know, I think it is just fortuitous. And I think what you said about wanting to write a book about Martin Luther King and his decision to do that Vietnam Yes. section that that is that that someone has to explore that if you take that on, because that is why was that not part of any written history and I think people were so nervous because there was a lot of drama. And yet that was one of the most historical pivotal moments, in my opinion, not only his civil rights, and all of a sudden understanding about the word Vietnam that touched so many different aspects in American society and King who knew that you know what the consequences that was but normally exploited. So, for you to put energy into that with being incredible.
2:11:20
SM: Well, I have tried to link up but you know, I have even written a letter to Martin Luther King or emailed Martin Luther King, the third and Joe Lowery. I did not get a response from them. A lot of the bigger you know, they do not know me from probably a hole in the wall. But the question is that I always ask is, are their secretaries and the people that work for them passing these up to them? And then is oftentimes that I find out that is where the problem is so.
2:11:42
MC: Or could it be they do not want to go there? If you thought of that?
2:11:45
SM: Yeah, that is-that is a possible use. Couple university presidents said they did not want to be interviewed because obviously if they were talking about boomers that could affect the bottom line in their university. Because I wanted to interview Leon Botstein and Bard, and Dr. Mote at the University of Maryland because I think they are both brilliant and both them so they had no time. Well, I know they had time, they had time for my- to bring my students to meet them, but they do not have time for this. And that is because they are still university presidents and but I am going to, you know, in the back of my mind when they leave their university positions if you do not think this project may be over, but if you do not think I am going to talk to them about that or king, that is another thing because I like both of them. They are really great brother. Yeah. So yeah, the only other thing I want to mention is I take pictures of all of my people and obviously I cannot take pictures of you because you are too far away. So I will need pictures of you eventually not right away. And maybe at some juncture in the next six months, I might be able to see you and I will take your picture. because that will be.
2:12:45
MC: Do you need to take them through something you can use it or I can-
2:12:49
SM: Yeah you can, you can send them to me some pictures that I can use now and if by some chance between now and next few nights, I link up I can take pictures of you. That would be great because I am taking pictures with my camera of everybody. Okay, but I do need a picture if I can. And I tell you what an honor to thank you for taking two hours and 20 minutes of your time to be interviewed.
2:13:13
MC: Oh, this is awesome. And I want to thank Callie for passing in the name on that. See, that is what I meant about women willing to go ahead and say hear some other person hears. I mean, hi. And I just talked about longevity. Come on.
2:13:24
SM: Yeah, well, I, you know, Holly, I did not know how I met Holly. But she did not remember meeting me back at Kent State in 1974 when I was just in my first job. So, but I only a couple years ago, she came to our campus and then she did a program for activist series. And then I mentioned to her that I was writing a book, but I did not do I did not contact her for over two years. And then I finally contacted her through her agent. And then her agent said, Yes, you would like to do the interview and I sent the questions ahead and that juncture did the interview and then I asked her if she would list some names and so she listed seven names and another one is Dr. Brunch or Bunch. I think her name is yes, she has not responded either, but, but I am, I am thankful that she gave me those names. So-
2:14:13
MC: No, that is great. Well, like you said, that is what that you know. 2021 That is great. Okay, Steve, well, let us stay in touch. I got your contact info send a couple of pictures. And you know, I just I am just so thankful and happy to tell you till someone asked his questions. I never think about this stuff. It is like I am looking ahead, you know, and like what we are doing now and realizing we have to think about where we have come from as well. So.
2:14:35
SM: Okay, and send me some names. And if you know Joan Baez, St. Louis is great guy you interviewed your former husband and myself will be great for the interview.
2:14:45
MC: So, I do know I do not I do not know where to pick up the phone. But I know she is sitting down there in Woodside, California. You know, why she tours? I do not even know why she is still out on the road touring. It is amazing and all her audience of course is all from the (19)60s but right you know, it comes to Durham Once a year, so who knows? Maybe.
2:15:03
SM: Alright, well, thanks again. Okay. Thanks, Steve. Have a great day and carry on.
2:15:08
MC: Thank you.
2:15:09
SM: Bye now.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Mandy Carter
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Carter, Mandy ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Human rights workers; African American sexual minorities; Carter, Mandy--Interviews
Description
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Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the "1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005."
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2009-12-03
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.32a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.32b
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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135:15
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/72afc69212d35780c7ae6a5d684c219f.mp3
ae047f8df9112fabf2a5c83b06e7afbd
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Date of Interview
4/28/2016
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian
Duration
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29:41
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Manooshag was born in Philadelphia to Turkish-Armenian parents and later moved to Binghamton when she was ten. She worked as a hairdresser and did a lot of charity work, including volunteering for the Boys and Girls club. She currently resides in Binghamton and has two sons, Richard and Robert. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Manooshag was born in Philadelphia to Armenian parents and later moved to Binghamton when she was ten. She worked as a hairdresser and did a lot of charity work, including volunteering for the Boys and Girls club. She currently resides in Endwell and has two sons, Richard and Robert. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenia; language; church; Armenian language school; politics; traditions; Christmas; charity work; diaspora; cultural identity; food; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenian; Turkey; Church; Armenian community; Family; Politics; Traditions; Christmas; Charity work; Diaspora; Cultural identity; Food; Binghamton.</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 28 April 2016
Interview Settings: Endwell, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with Binghamton University's special collection Library, Armenian Oral history project. April 27th 2016. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:15
MS: Oh, Manooshag Seraydarian.
0:18
GS: Ok, Manoosh. Where were you born?
0:20
MS: I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
0:22
GS: In what year?
0:24
MS: 1922.
0:26
GS: Who were your parents?
0:28
MS: My parents was Siranoush [Zopabourian Artzerounian Kalayjian] and Osgan Artzerounian.
0:34
GS: And where were they from?
0:36
MS: They were both from Sebastia but they met in Philadelphia.
0:41
GS: Why did they immigrate to Philadelphia?
0:44
MS: Well, they had a sponsor that lived in Philadelphia and that was how they happen to go, they were in Providence Rho– that was their landing– Providence Rhode Island. And then from Providence Rhode Island, they went to Philadelphia and they went directly to my father’s brother's house. They kept roomers and that was where they took my mom and that was where she met my, my grandmother knew her right away, and that was where she met my dad and that was how they married, you know.
1:30
GS: What were there reasons for coming to America from Armenia?
1:33
MS: Well my father came to America to make money and go back to Armenia but he came and the war started and that was where he– they never got back to Armenia.
1:42
GS: What about your mother?
1:44
MS: My mother came because they were orphans and they were brought to Beirut and I am hazy here. And then from there they went to Providence Rhode Island, they went to Philadelphia and then they stayed there for a while and they met their sponsor who was [unintelligible] and my mom stayed at my uncle's house because they knew my grandmother.
2:28
GS: Okay, what did your parents do for work?
2:32
MS: Well my mother's father was a photographer and that was what he did, but his brother was a butcher. So– and their name was Kasabian. And my grandfather was the photographer and he said I am not a butcher so I am not going to use that name and he changed and got one that is a real tongue twister Zopabourian.
2:54
GS: Oh my–
2:55
MS: Yeah. [laughs]
2:55
GS: Did your mother become a photographer as well?
2:56
MS: No.
2:57
GS: Did she work?
3:01
MS: My dad had a little hardware store and she learned to run the little hardware store. My dad worked for Budd Manufacturing in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He worked during the day. When he came home at night if there was, wanted somebody to have a screen door hung or whatever they would buy from him and would take him and he would put it on the house, you know.
3:31
GS: Did your parents go to school, high school, college?
3:37
MS: No, my mother went to, no that was my aunts, they could all read and write Armenian and English. I know, my mother went to adult education courses at night and I do not really know how my aunt did it but dollars to donuts that was how probably how she got into that. But she played the piano and my father played a violin. And in fact we still have his violin.
4:13
GS: Oh my God, I will have to see that. Um, so you said your parents both spoke Armenian.
4:18
MS: Yes, they spoke– also understood it, Turkish.
4:21
GS: Okay, do you have any siblings?
4:24
MS: I have a brother and my sister passed away. Yes.
4:28
GS: Okay. Did the– and what is their ages relatively to you, are they older, younger?
4:34
MS: I am the oldest.
4:35
GS: You are the oldest?
4:36
MS: My sister was two years younger and my brother was twelve years younger.
4:39
GS: Okay, did your parents speak Armenian to the three of you when you growing up?
4:45
MS: They spoke Armenian and we were not allowed to speak English in the house.
4:49
GS: You were not allowed to speak English in the house– that was the entire ̶
4:52
MS: We had to speak Armenian–
4:53
GS: –For your entire childhood?
4:56
MS: While we were living at home we spoke Armenian.
4:59
GS: What were your parents’ reasons for that?
5:02
MS: Well they wanted to keep their, they wanted to keep their heritage. They did not want to lose it because we were growing up in an American country and it is easy to get involved with the American language because that was where we were going to school. In fact, the school was, my house was here and the school was here at the corner, Hamilton School on Spruce Street in Philadelphia.
5:33
GS: Did you– was there a large Armenian community where you grew up? Yes?
5:38
MS: Yes, there was. Philadelphia had a big Armenian community.
5:42
GS: Was it geographically like centralized, would you say that you had neighbors who were all Armenian or you were kind of scattered around?
5:49
MS: Well, there was parts where there were like West Philadelphia had a lot of Armenians but we also–my dad had friends in North Philadelphia, and we used to take the trolley to go see them and they had a yard goods store. And that is a rare industry to get involved in.
6:09
GS: Was there an Armenian church in Philadelphia?
6:13
MS: We did not have a church but they rented it from the Episcopal Church. And my grandmother she was in her eighties when I was born. She would walk over to our house and get us and take us to church in the morning to the Lutheran Church. And at night she would take us to the Protestant church. So we grew up in both.
6:37
GS: Why would she take you also to the protestant church?
6:40
MS: Because that was the other church she wanted to go to church, and she wanted her children to learn about the Bible. Now when you go to the Protestant church you learn more about the bible.
6:52
GS: Okay, now going back to the Armenian Church services did you had an Armenian priest?
6:58
MS: Yes.
6:59
GS: And how regular were the services?
7:02
MS: You know I do not remember that but they did not have their own church for a lot of years, and by that time we moved to Binghamton.
7:13
GS: Okay, how old were you when you moved to Binghamton?
7:16
MS: I was about ten years old.
7:18
GS: Okay, when you were in Philadelphia did you ever attend Bible school or Armenian language school?
7:25
MS: Oh, yes. I went to Armenian school and I was doing so well in Armenian school and my father said you cannot go anymore because you are not doing well in English. [laughs]
7:35
GS: Now was this Monday through Friday Armenian school or was it a weekend?
7:39
MS: There were certain days when we had Armenian school, I cannot remember it now. And I know that the teacher was a friend of my mother’s. She used to stop at the house often. In fact, her name was Nectar but I do not remember her last name.
7:55
GS: Okay, let us discuss when you moved to Binghamton. Did you still attend–was there still an Armenian Church service that you could attend?
8:04
MS: Here?
8:04
GS: Yes.
8:05
MS: Oh, once or twice a year.
8:08
GS: That was very infrequent. What was that transition like for you?
8:11
MS: We thought, we thought that this was a very strange area when you come from Philadelphia and Binghamton was a little [unintelligible]. Hole in the wall and there were quite a few Armenian families and of course politics were involved, very strongly then–
8:37
GS: What sort of politics?
8:40
MS: The Hunchags and the Tashnags.
8:43
GS: And the Ramgavars?
8:45
MS: And Ramgavars. I never got involved with that, we were friends with all of them. [laughs]
8:49
GS: Would you say that growing up you hung out mostly with other Armenian children or did you have non-Armenian friends as well?
8:57
MS: We had both.
8:58
GS: You had both? But were they distinct groups of friends or were they intermingled?
9:02
MS: One friend I do not remember her, her parents were Russian I think, but whoever was, we had a big Armenian community, you know where we growing up. And then we went to school here in Binghamton on the south side of Binghamton.
9:25
GS: Did you still attend Armenian language school in Binghamton?
9:28
MS: We did not have such, we did not have an Armenian–
9:31
GS: –But you and your siblings spoke it fluently, though, by virtue–
9:34
MS: Yes.
9:36
GS: Okay. What were some other traditions that your parents would maintain in the household maybe, were there certain foods they kept?
9:47
MS: You know they did not have birthdays, they had name days. They celebrated name days. So if you had a name day, but since my dad was here in the United States long enough and so he told my mum when our birthday came a long that she got to have a birthday party for us. And that was strange to my mother. But I remember her doing it and there was a family that lived on Walnut Street in Philadelphia and that family had several children they were invited to the party and, oh, what were their last name. In fact there is a doctor here that is– what do they call them when they try to find out what is wrong with them?
10:41
GS: Diagnostician?
10:42
MS: Something like that. His last name was the same as my girlfriend that lived there but I lost touch with them. Once we came to Binghamton, I lost touch with them, ones in Philadelphia except for my cousins.
11:00
GS: Okay. Did you and your family celebrate Armenian Christmas as opposed to traditional Christmas?
11:05
MS: We did both.
11:06
GS: You did both?
11:07
MS: Uh-huh
11:07
GS: Was it, did you celebrate both with the community or was it one with the community and one by yourselves?
11:14
MS: I do not know how you would–the churches–because we lived across the street from a Baptist Church so we would run over to the Baptist Church–
11:25
GS: On the 25th of December?
11:26
MS: Yes, In fact went there regularly because we did not have regular Armenian services. If we had services twice a year we were doing well–
11:37
GS: Did you like that in Binghamton; the Armenian community had their own church even if they could not have their regular services?
11:44
MS: It did not matter to me.
11:45
GS: It did not matter to you? How frequent would you go to church for events other than church services?
11:46
MS: What was that?
11:47
GS: Would you go to the Armenian Church in Binghamton for events other than church services such as dinners, gatherings?
12:00
MS: Oh, sure. We still do.
12:02
GS: Like what sorts of events?
12:06
MS: Whatever holiday comes along, you know, we go into that; whether it is Easter or Christmas, you know, we do– we celebrate those days with the church.
12:22
GS: So let us go a little bit more into your adult life. Did you go to college? No? What job did you get when you grew up–
12:34
MS: What did I do?
12:35
GS: Yes.
12:35
MS: I got into hairdressing.
12:37
GS: Okay.
12:38
MS: And I did not stick with it very long. [laughs]
12:40
GS: And you stayed in Binghamton?
12:42
MS: Yeah, we stayed in Binghamton and I met my husband in church and he came from Michigan.
12:50
GS: Huh, He was recently moved when you met him?
12:55
MS: Yeah
12:55
GS: How old were you when you met?
12:56
MS: Eighteen.
12:58
GS: And how old were you when you got married?
12:59
MS: Eighteen. [laughs]
13:01
GS: Was it just like a quick marriage, did your parents have a hand in it?
13:06
MS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They all came money was scarce; there was no such thing as a big wedding. The engagement party, it was a small party in the church hall. And the parents did some baking, making [unintelligible} whatever. And that was a small engagement party. And we never had a big wedding. We just went to an Episcopal Church. My sister stood up for me. And we got married. The parents came. We just walked in and walked out. [laughs]
13:46
GS: How did you feel about being married? You know.
13:51
MS: I did not give it much thought. That was just part of life.
13:54
GS: It was just more what is expected how it was supposed to be.
13:57
MS: That is right.
13:58
GS: Did you and your husband stay in Binghamton yes?
14:02
MS: Yes we did.
14:03
GS: Did you continue working after that?
14:06
MS: Oh, I found part time jobs and then I did a lot of volunteer work.
14:11
GS: What kinds of volunteer?
14:12
MS: Oh, I worked in the boys and girls club. I worked for RSVP I worked at the Catholic Charities; I did a lot of charity work. I enjoyed it. I did not have to go to work.
14:27
GS: What was your husband’s profession?
14:34
MS: He was a [laughs] ̶ There is a name for he did. But he worked in the payroll at IBM.
14:42
GS: Human resources?
14:44
MS: I cannot remember now what they called his job–
14:47
GS: But he was just a back office administrator? Sure.
15:03
MS: And of course there was– those were the war years so there was a shortage of men and he was one of the few that was that he got– they did not take– they did not draft him.
15:14
GS: They did not draft him– Was there a reason or he was lucky?
15:17
MS: He was just lucky.
15:18
GS: Okay. Did you two have any children?
15:22
MS: Oh, yeah we have two sons.
15:24
GS: What are their names?
15:26
MS: Richard and Robert.
15:28
GS: And how old are they now?
15:27
MS: They are in their seventies.
15:29
GS: Okay. So it was shortly after you were married that you had each of them?
15:34
MS: Yeah, we were married three years when Richard was born, and then another three years when
Robert was born in ‘forty-six.
15:43
GS: Okay. Did your husband speak Armenian?
15:45
MS: Hardly.
15:46
GS: Hardly? Did you try– did you teach your children Armenian?
15:50
MS: No.
15:51
GS: What was your reason for not doing so?
15:54
MS: I really did not like the idea that– I could not speak English when I was growing up. And I did not want them to grow up like that. I wanted them to know the English language.
16:08
GS: So you did not send them to Armenian school and you did not speak Armenian with them?
16:10
MS: That was unfortunate that I did that, that was how I thought then because we lived in such a tight community, I did not like that part of it.
16:21
GS: Was most of the community in Binghamton speaking Armenian at that point?
16:26
MS: Some of them spoke Turkish quite a bit. There were those who spoke Armenian, and some of them–and the Protestants spoke Turkish more than the other groups.
16:39
GS: So there was a significant Protestant Armenian community within the Armenian community.
16:44
MS: There was. Uh-huh.
16:45
GS: So, would you say that it was not important for the sake of community, identity that one speaks Armenian?
16:57
MS: Yeah.
16:57
GS: So, what were some– did you try and still maintain your– a sense of Armenian identity for your sons when they were growing up?
17:06
MS: Oh, yes.
17:06
GS: How would you do that?
17:09
MS: We were involved in any Armenian, anything in Armenian that was being done we went to all of the affairs, picnics or whatever. You know, we were always with the Armenian groups because we went to the– My children went to the Methodist Church down here, because my husband worked Saturdays and Sundays. I could not drive them to Binghamton, I never had the car. And then after a while I started going back to the Armenian Church once I was able to drive and I started taking my children.
17:53
GS: Did your children end up going to college or going to the workforce?
17:58
MS: Oh no, both my boys went to college.
18:02
GS: And what do they do now? Or did they do for career I assume they are retired at this point.
18:06
MS: Well, my son Richard was vice president of Lockheed Martin in Manassas, Virginia.
18:12
GS: Wow.
18:13
MS: And my younger son was a social worker for Broome County.
18:16
GS: Okay. That is wonderful.
18:18
MS: Yeah, I have two nice boys. [laughs]
18:22
GS: I do not doubt it for a minute–
18:24
MS: I got to say that. They are two nice boys. Yeah we were blessed, very lucky. And my son Richard he could turn this house down and put it back up together again even though that is not his job.
18:41
GS: He can build?
18:42
MS: He can build.
18:43
GS: Just like your grandfather?
18:44
MS: Oh, well my grandfather was a photographer he did not work with his hands.
18:48
GS: So it was your–
18:50
MS: Oh my father, yeah it was my father.
18:53
GS: So what–do you recall any distinct differences between the Armenian community in Philadelphia and the Armenian community in Binghamton?
19:05
MS: There is no comparing.
19:06
GS: No comparing? Why not?
19:14
MS: I was not aware of the politics in Philadelphia, but when I came to Binghamton; there was a big difference and their attitude between the two political parties, which we did not appreciate. We did not appreciate that because we had friends in both groups.
19:34
GS: Do you think that the Armenian Diaspora is one large community or do you think it is several smaller communities within each city or state?
19:44
MS: You mean in here?
19:45
GS: No, the entire diaspora like all Armenians living outside of Armenia?
19:50
MS: I would not know that.
19:53
GS: What is your perception though? Do you think that Armenians are Armenians wherever they are? Or is it?
19:58
MS: I think so. I think so.
20:00
GS: Yeah? So even though there might be differences between the community in Binghamton and the community in Philadelphia?
20:05
MS: Yeah.
20:05
GS: There is still that cohesiveness. How do you define being Armenian, or what is the most important part of your Armenian identity?
20:12
MS: It is my heritage. It is just my background. It is my family. I am very sensitive to the Armenian needs–and it is an important part of my life. I grew up as an Armenian and the English part came when I started going to school, which was very–and that was very important for my father for his daughters to know the English language and understand it.
20:44
GS: Okay. Do you think that the Armenian Community in Binghamton is getting stronger or at risk of losing its identity now?
20:55
MS: I think the university has helped. We have some nice people coming from the–young people coming from the university. I think that has helped our church grow a little, otherwise, if we do not have young people, there is not going to be an Armenian church. And you know the Armenians bought that church, it was a Presbyterian Church, and they bought it from the Presbyterians a little over a hundred years ago.
21:32
GS: Interesting.
21:33
MS: I think there is a block on the church with the date on it.
21:37
AD: So, when you were growing up, because your name is Armenian, were people asking you like what is your name? Like where are you from or anything like that? You have an Armenian name, first name.
21:52
MS: I have an Armenian name and I kept it. You know what, I tried ‘Violet’ for a while and then I was going to school. The teachers just could not say Manooshag, and I thought to myself if they cannot say Manooshag that is just too bad, that is what my name is. And I would not change it and I went through school with Manooshag.
22:15
AD: But were they asking you?
22:18
MS: Yeah, I got all kinds of questions.
22:19
AD: So you were telling them it is an Armenian name?
22:22
MS: Yeah.
22:22
AD: Did they know what is Armenian?
22:26
MS: They did not know. What do us kids know? I grew up as an Armenian but you know those who are not Armenians would not understand the ties that we have to it. You know no matter what I do, even though I am born and raised in America, the Armenian part in me is very strong.
22:48
AD: Yes. So, did your parents want you to marry with an Armenian guy?
22:54
MS: Oh, yeah.
22:55
AD: They did not want any American.
22:57
MS: No, but my sister married an odar [stranger in Armenian] And she married the nicest man you could meet. He was a wonderful wonderful man. And, of course, with time my mother realized they do not have to marry an Armenian to be happy. You know, that was their choice. That was my sister’s choice. And of course my sister joined the navy. That was war years. She was a wave. And she went to Harper–Hunter College–in New York. And she promised my mom she would not go overseas but because my mom had to sign papers for her to join the navy. And yea so, anyway, they worked it out.
23:47
GS: Did your sons marry Armenians?
23:50
MS: My one son is married to an Armenian; the other one married his schoolmate. Unfortunately, she died from cancer, a beautiful, beautiful girl. And so I have three granddaughters from her.
24:03
GS: Did you want your sons marry other Armenians or–
24:07
MS: No, I would not. I would not do that.
24:11
AD: How do your grandchildren identify themselves? Do they think they are Armenian or American?
24:19
MS: The one that lives in New York says the Armenians are very expensive. Any affair they have, they are very expensive but she has a cousin that lives there also. So, she is in touch with some of the, oh in fact, two of them are there. Two or three of them are there in New York. And the other one is in California and so she has some contact with an Armenian neighbor. The youngest one I do not think she has any contact with any Armenians.
24:55
AD: But how do they identify themselves? American?
24:58
MS: Oh, sure they are Americans. I am an American too.
25:04
AD: But you said you are an Armenian!
25:07
MS: I am Armenian but actually, yeah, that is my heritage.
25:11
AD: But do they mention they are of Armenian heritage?
25:14
MS: Well, if they were questioned they would but I do not know if they would just come out and say I am an Armenian. I do not know that, I doubt it. But I know that my oldest granddaughter lives near an Armenian family, so in California. You know you have to have somebody that knows something about Armenians for them to get interested.
25:44
AD: So, what kind of food your mother cooked when you were–?
25:49
MS: My mother? [coughs] You know, she grew up in an orphanage so she did not know how to cook until she got married. Her sister-in-law taught her how to cook. My grandmother taught her how to cook. She did everything. She made yalancı [dolma], she made köfte, she made börek, name it. And she made the best she knew how to roll out the Baklava dough. She used to go to my aunts because my aunts had a great big dining room table and she would roll out the dough. They would start like five O’clock in the morning and she would start rolling out the dough and my aunt would do the baking and, you know.
26:31
AD: Did she teach you how to cook Armenian food?
26:35
MS: Oh yeah, my mother cooked Armenian food all the time.
26:38
AD: No, no you.
26:39
MS: Me?
26:40
AD: Yeah.
26:40
MS: Oh I cook Armenian foods. I cook anything. I cook Italian.
26:47
AD: So, did your parents speak English well or?
26:54
MS: My dad spoke English well. My mother learned it. We would, as we were walking along. She would stop and pick out the letters and then she would ask us to pronounce it for her. This is in Philadelphia. And she was very interested in learning. That was a one plus with my mum. That she really had a desire to learn English language. She tried. She even tried to get a driver license. But she never went through with the whole thing. [laughs]
27:28
AD: So, did they have just Armenian friends to hang out or did they become friends with American neighbors?
27:38
MS: Well, they had naturally mostly with Armenians. My mother started working and she made some friends at work. In fact, I have pictures of some of the people she worked with. They were very good friends. And they have all passed away now. I know my mother had some American friends.
28:01
AD: And you had mix, you had both mixed American friends as a kid, as a child, you had both American and Armenian friends?
28:15
MS: Oh, yeah.
28:15
AD: So, how was your house when you were little? Was your house decorated with Armenian stuff, you know, like, did you have friends coming to your house when you were young?
28:38
MS: Yeah.
28:38
AD: Would they ask anything, like was there anything in the house resembling Armenian culture?
28:46
MS: Well we had Armenian literature, Armenian newspaper coming. You know that type of thing.
28:51
GS: I am assuming you had oriental rugs in the house?
28:54
MS: I could not read it by my grandmother could. My grandmother taught us how to read by reading the bible. I had a wonderful grandmother, very sweet.
29:07
AD: Did you had like any, did your mother for example do crochet or–
29:14
MS: My mother did a lot of crochet.
29:16
AD: Okay, so was she putting that out in the house?
29:20
MS: You know, I have some upstairs on the dresser. She did needle work. I do not know if I have any right here now. Let me see. My mother did a lot of needlework. It takes me a while to get my legs going.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c793be30c7d867482b404ecbefd36437.mp3
bb4ec9f24c998e14a3873c6a11a628f9
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
3/29/2016
Interviewer
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Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
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Margaret Suzanne Ayoub
Duration
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22:15
Language
English
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Binghamton University
Interview Format
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Margaret is a mother of two daughters. She has a master's degree and taught for thirty years at an elementary school. Currently, Margaret and her husband, Ray, are worlking to become more involved in the Armenian Church."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Margaret is a mother of two daughters. She has a master's degree and taught for thirty years at an elementary school. Currently, Margaret and her husband, Ray, are worlking to become more involved in the Armenian Church.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"gender roles; Armenia; traditions; food; church; identity; Bible Study; diaspora; ACYOA"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">gender roles; Armenia; traditions; food; church; identity; Bible Study; diaspora; ACYOA</span>
Transcription
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Margaret Suzanne Ayoub
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 29 March 2016
Interview Settings: Phone interview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone working on the Armenian Oral History Project conducted with the Special Collections Library, at Binghamton University. Can you please state your name, your birthday and a little bit about yourself for the record?
0:16
MA: Margaret Suzanne Ayoub. 5/12/1945. And I am sorry did not hear your last request.
0:24
GS: Well, we just going to start your childhood so we will start with your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about them? Were they immigrants to this country? Were they Armenian etc.?
0:34
MA: Okay, both my parents are Armenian. Their Parents were born in Armenia or Constantinople I am not quite sure but my father in fact, if I can expand a little bit, my dad I just found out came to America from Turkey as a nine month old child. I just discovered that his mother, my grandmother, was raped by a Turk. So, she brought him as an infant over to America. My mother was born here, but and I just found out that I have a little bit of Turkish in me unbeknownst. So, does that answer your questions?
1:22
GS: Yes, so both your parents were Armenians?
1:26
MA: Yes.
1:27
GS: And they ̶ but it was their parents who were immigrants to this country?
1:31`
MA: Yes.
1:32
GS: Okay, to America. Where did you grow up?
1:36
MA: I grew up in Bloomfield, New Jersey. I was born in South Dakota when my father was being discharged from the army. I was born there in 1945 in Rapid City. And then, my mother brought me back to East Orange New Jersey to her parents and then my dad followed. Yeah, and I was, most of my childhood was in Bloomfield, New Jersey.
2:01
GS: Okay, did you have any siblings growing up?
2:04
MA: My sister who is three and a half years younger than me.
2:09
GS: Okay, what was the highest level of Education your parents achieved?
2:13
MA: My mother completed high school. My father I think Grammar School and perhaps middle school but he never graduated high school.
2:25
GS: And what were there occupations?
2:27
MA: My mother was a waitress and she also worked for an insurance company. My dad believed or not started in Brooklyn as a hairdresser, and went from there to school custodian for many years.
2:45
GS: Okay. What was, did your parents speak Armenian?
2:51
MA: Yes, they both spoke Armenian.
2:53
GS: Okay, and did they teach you and your sister Armenian growing up?
2:57
MA: We ̶ They did not officially teach us. We did go to Armenian school. They spoke it to my grandparents who lived nearby. So, we assimilated many of the Armenian phrases and language, overhearing them speak. But we did understand it and we did speak some of it. I to this day I understand it but I do not speak Armenian.
3:20
GS: Now, you said you attended Armenian school with your sister, how long did you attend? Was it a weekend thing or was it regular grammar school?
3:29
MA: It was some weekend thing. It was, I believe if I recall, it was after church where we attended in Irvington, New Jersey, We had, after services, we had several classes, and sometimes on Saturdays.
3:45
GS: Okay, did you attend Sunday school or Bible school as a child?
3:51
MA: Yes, we both attended Sunday school and then as I am matured in high school, I taught Sunday school there at the Armenian Church.
4:01
GS: Okay, what was, can you describe your experience going to Church and to Bible School as a child?
4:07
MA: You know you are breaking up a little bit, could you repeat that again?
4:12
GS: Yeah, can you talk a little bit about your experience going to Bible school as a child?
4:18
MA: We, I loved Sunday school. I loved learning about the church; I loved learning about the history. Um, dear mom pray was our um, priest at the time and he was very good educator. And then when as I learned I was able to share that information and to the children that I subsequently had in my class. And it was a nice group of children and it served as a community for us. We were about fifteen minutes away from the Church and my grandparents would take us and my mother and father would take us to church and we would stay, sometimes we would go on Saturdays for classes for the as I had said the Armenian school classes. So it was a wonderful experience we would put on place, we put on the Christmas ̶
5:10
GS: Pageant?
5:11
MA: Yes, the pageant, thank you. And I remember being Mary at one of them, it was a wonderful opportunity for us.
5:19
GS: Was there a large Armenian community that you were part of growing up?
5:24
MA: You know it is hard to say what the size of it was but it was a good size community. The women would cook wonderful Armenian food for our banquets. We ̶ They have since moved to Livingston, New Jersey have brought in more Armenians so I believe it is a bigger community now. We were in a small area, the small church but it was a wonderful experience. My grandfather served on the altar. So he was a deacon sang all of the hymns and I sang in the choir at the church besides teaching Sunday school. So it was a beautiful part of my life.
6:03
GS: Was your kinship group mainly Armenians growing up or you did you also have non-Armenians?
6:11
MA: Mostly non-Armenian friends. But I do recall, you know what, we did as I matured we belonged to the ACYOA, and we would take trips with them. Now I remember we would go to the shore, we would go Belmar to the Vann Hotel and have fun, dances and I do recall nice group activities with the Armenian Church, but I do also have friends from the high school, non-Armenians.
6:41
GS: What were your parents’ role in the household as you growing up?
6:45
MA: Parent’s rules?
6:48
GS: Your ̶ Their roles? Was your father the breadwinner, was your mother the breadwinner? Did they split household responsibilities?
6:56
MA: I am a little hard hearing you Greg but you are asking me what their roles, did you say breadwinner?
7:03
GS: Their roles, like their parental roles?
7:06
MA: Oh, their roles, okay. My dad was the head of the household and mom would have his dinner ready when walked in at 5 o’clock. [laughs] And if it was not ready, she would hear about it. And she waited on him hand and foot. That was the rule and he called the shots.
7:24
GS: Where did your father work?
7:28
MA: He worked in Bloomfield school system.
7:31
GS: What did he do?
7:33
MA: He was the school custodian for several of the schools, middle school and at the end of his career he was a custodian in an elementary school.
7:44
GS: What kinds of traditions– Armenian traditions– did your parents try and maintain in your household growing up?
7:52
MA: Many of the traditions were set by my grandparents on my mother’s side. They lived several blocks up from our home. And many of the traditions were again surrounding what they would set up for us for example, Shish Kebab in the backyard. My grandfather would invite many of the relatives from New York over and we would all meet over there and have wonderful Armenian meals. My grandparents brought in the priest from the Church after Sunday and after the services and my grandmother would cook for them and I would dance for them. They put my mother would play the piano, Armenian music and I would dance for them. I am digressing but ̶
8:49
GS: Please do, please do.
8:50
MA: And you know my father’s mother lived in Brooklyn, we would travel for many of the holidays and she would cook wonderful Armenian food and there was an Armenian area, I do not want to say ghetto but there was an Armenian block and many of us would gather in one of the dining rooms and crack the eggs at Easter and eat all the wonderful Armenian food together and sing songs and they would also sit and play cards for hours. So that was some of the traditions.
9:22
GS: Okay, where was the main social space for your Armenian Community when you were growing up?
9:29
MA: The social space?
9:31
GS: Yes.
9:33
MA: Basically I would say the church and I would also say again my grandparents’ house and our house. We would invite many of the Armenian relative over–many, many of them. And as I said when the times at the shore.
9:56
GS: What would you identify yourself as?
10:01
MA: What do I identify myself as?
10:03
GS: Yes.
10:03
MA: If someone asked my nationality?
10:06
GS: Yes?
10:06
MA: As an Armenian.
10:07
GS: You would say you are Armenian?
10:09
MA: Yes.
10:11
GS: Okay. How important is it for you, was it for you when you were raising your own children to–
10:18
MA: Greg I could not hear you honey–
10:20
GS: Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about your own family as an adult, when you married, did you have children?
10:27
MA: Yes. I married someone who is not ̶ Armenian but his Parents are from Palestine and Jordan. And many of the customs are the same, the food is the same, the food is very important. Food is very similar. And I am very– I have to tell you again if I can go off on a tangent, I have not been attending Armenian Church because where I live in New Hope, Pennsylvania. There is no church nearby that is Armenian. And I met someone I did not know there are Armenians in next town over and I ran into somebody who is an Armenian and she encouraged me to go to the Armenian Church which is about an hour away. And as of late the last few months now that my children are grown and I have more time, we have been, Ray’s been very, my husband has been very willing to attend the church. We have been going to Armenian Church maybe every other, every couple of weeks, we would go down, and I will tell you that being back in the Armenian community has been just so rewarding. And I have even run into people, Armenian’s that I have known through other people and it has been a wonderful reconnection for me, and Ray’s very willing to go with me. So it has been just been so wonderful.
11:55
GS: Okay, do you have any children?
11:56
MA: I have two girls.
11:59
GS: Can you tell me a little bit about them?
12:02
MA: My oldest daughter is Melony. She is, do you want ages?
12:07
GS: Yes, please.
12:08
MA: Melony is, let us see, about forty-three, and she is graduate of Georgetown, and she is working for school district nearby. She has two children. She did not marry an Armenian but he is a wonderful guy and loves her food. Stephany is forty. She is a teacher and she teaches math. She has two little boys. And her husband is not Armenian but once again we are very fortunate to have two wonderful son-in-law.
12:47
GS: Okay. What was the highest level of education that you achieved? What was your occupation?
12:54
MA: I have a Master’s degree and I taught for thirty years at elementary school.
13:00
GS: As a parent how important was it for you that your children speak Armenian?
13:08
MA: Unfortunately, because I am not speaking fluent Armenian, we did not speak it in my house here. I just want them to appreciate their heritage, not necessarily have to speak Armenian because that is not, right now that is not in the forefront. But they are very well aware of their heritage. They appreciate it. My parents, they love them dearly. And I just want them to understand, they are very aware of the genocide. They know how important some of the traditions that we do tend to follow how important they are to us. And I want my grandchildren to know that they have Armenian in them. And we talk about it. I tried to tell them the older ones about the genocide and how important and how lucky they are to be Armenian.
14:05
GS: Um, what were some traditions you tried to maintain for your children growing up in order to give them their own Armenian heritage?
14:15
MA: I could not ̶ Some of the traditions, I am sorry I could not ̶
14:18
GS: Yes, yes. Some Armenian traditions you tried to maintain in your household for your children?
14:24
MA: Um, well, I hate to keep saying this, but the food is important. Unfortunately I do not cook as much Armenian but I try to make some of the food and now that we started to go back to church, the Armenian Church we can buy Armenian food. And we bring it home and heat it up here. The grandchildren love the çörek and the string cheese that they make it at the church and little kebab. So, food is important. Um, basically just talking about their tradition and stories, relating stories to them about our things that we did as children with my parents and my grandparents it is just to keep that memory alive.
15:12
GS: Did your children attend weekend Bible school or did they grow up within the Armenian Church?
15:18
MA: No, they did not. They were both Baptized in the Armenian Church but because of proximity of the churches we have moved back and forth from Jersey to Pennsylvania and unfortunately not near the Armenian churches. So they were brought up. They went to Bible school, Sunday school at the Methodist churches because they were more local to us.
15:41
GS: Okay. Was there an Armenian community in which your children able to participate growing up?
15:47
MA: No not really, unfortunately they could not. We were too isolated.
15:53
GS: Do you see yourself as a part of a larger Armenian Diaspora?
16:05
MA: Um, um help me to understand what you want me–
16:09
GS: Okay, do you– so, there is a large population of Armenians living in America it is called the Armenian diaspora. How do you see that entity as a part of a collective whole? Do you think it is a little pockets of individual communities or do you think it is one, one larger community of Armenians living abroad?
16:31
MA: I just as I said where I have been, it has been very self-isolated but since we started back to the Armenian Church, um it has been, I believe that is the community that we belong to now and I did not know the next town over I found out through this women that I met at a Presbyterian group choir who is Armenian that she has relatives that I have become friendly with in the next town over. So, um, and they also are attending the Armenian Church towards Philadelphia. So this is a nice size community. I am amazed at the amount of Armenians that attend there. I have been really isolated as I said. I do not know if I am answering you for what you want.
17:22
GS: No, this is perfect, this is perfect, thank you. How do you view– do you participate in any activities or are you aware of any larger Armenian organizations in America?
17:36
MA: No, we have really been divorced as I said from the Armenian community and just now starting to be more assimilated. We just were talking about joining the church and Ray and I, my husband and I have been discussing that. So I think we are going to become dues-paying members and we have just been enamored by the priest there. He is a young fellow and very interesting to talk to, and I think that we are going to become part of that community, so.
18:11
GS: Okay, how is that made you feel over the course of your life being separated from Armenian communities by virtue where you lived?
18:22
MA: You know, because I was so involved with the children growing up, that and working full time that has made me comfortable in my American community. And you know, you make relationships and camaraderie with the people that you work with and the children through their groups and community affiliations. So we have been very comfortable but now that we are getting back assimilated into the Armenian community of the church and as I said nearby town folks, it has just made me feel so much more warmer towards my tradition, my heritage and I am loving it, I am loving it, I am, it is like I am being like a prodigal child being brought back into the fold.
19:18
GS: Okay, I am going a little back how you raised your children, what would you say where the roles you and your husband had while your children were growing up? And How does that compared to your parents roles in the household were?
19:36
MA: You are asking me about my, our bringing up our children compared to how was I brought up?
19:43
GS: Well not so much how they are brought up, but how you and your husband, you know, delegated the responsibilities of being parents versus the relationship that your parents have? For example you told me that your father was the breadwinner and your mother was supposed to have the household ready for him as he wanted.
20:00
MA: Right. Well I really emphasize that it is team work, and I think the roles, somewhat have grew up have changed and we have shared that responsibility. My husband and I have shared the responsibility, because you need when both are working full-time. Everyone has to pitch in. So yes it is different from when I was brought up and yeah we both share the responsibilities, and share the responsibilities at the children. Ray travelled a lot when he was working. We are both retired now. So, a lot of those responsibilities were on my shoulders but when he was home we both participated in the kids’ activities and the household.
20:45
GS: Do you feel that your children are trying to maintain their own Armenian identity and pass it on to their own children or that is something that you are more trying to pass it on to your grandchildren?
21:00
MA: I am sorry could you repeat that?
21:01
GS: Sure. Do you, how important is an Armenian identity to your children? And do you see more is your own role to pass on that heritage to your grandchildren, to their children or is that something that they are doing on their own?
21:18
MA: Okay, I think that they have, they are more Americanized. When I go to the Church I can see some of the offspring of people my age are very much Armenianized but because of our not being in the community of the Armenians as the children were growing up, they are more Americanized and anything that Armenian will come from me to my grandchildren and to my children. When they were little, my parents tried very hard to you know show them the Armenian way, but and I am trying to continue that but not to the degree that I see down at the church.
22:02
GS: Okay, well thank you very much for your time. We very much appreciate your contribution.
22:07
MA: That is it?
22:08
GS: That is it.
22:10
MA: [laughs], Gregory! Gregory I thought you are going to ask me the dates of the genocide, and ̶
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Margaret Suzanne Ayoub
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/30acf4006690fcfa50433d0f8f30553d.mp3
ef6fdfd017245b6336e40e428f3a2bcc
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Broome County Oral History Project
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Broome County -- History
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Description
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The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
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2
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In copyright
Contributor
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
Coverage
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1977-1978
Relation
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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<p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Mrs. Marie Nejame Freije</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dates of interviews: 6 March 1978 and 6 April 1978</span></p>
<br />
<p><strong>[Interview #1: 6 March 1978]</strong></p>
<br />
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Marie Freije of 60 Mathews St., Binghamton, NY, on March 6, 1978. Marie, do you want to start telling me about your recollections of your life when you came from Lebanon?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: OK—I was born in Lebanon and we lived most of our life in Egypt, and the winters, we spent our winters in Egypt and in the summer in Lebanon, up until and then we were caught in Lebanon during the First World War and we were spending our summer there. And from there, we spent the, spent the four years in Lebanon and in Arabia. We had to go to Arabia to get away from the war, that's from the Turks-dominated Lebanon. That's when my brother, Fred, was with Lawrence of Arabia who worked for the King of Arabia. And we finally came to Egypt before the war ended—four months before—and that's where I went to school—in French schools—private schools, and in 1922 we came to this country. I was 15 years old, entered schools here. We lived in Syracuse, where I attended high school and College of Music—that was a major in music. In 1932 we came to Binghamton, therefore I consider Binghamton my hometown, but I enjoyed life here in the community. In 1938, my brother and I went into business—opened up a ladies dress shop specializing in bridals in Johnson City. We carried the store for 38 years, enjoyed the many friends, the customers who I've made a lot of friends with.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">I belong to many clubs and do a lot volunteer work, Business and Professional Women's Clubs for, that's in Triple Cities, Johnson City Catholic Daughters, Civic Club, Our Ladies of Lebanon Club, American Civic Association, and was also President of Business and Professional Club and President, twice, Ladies of Lebanon Club. I have enjoyed being active in the community, made many, many, many friends. In 1972, I closed my business and went to Lebanon on two trips. It was very enjoyable because I never knew Lebanon too well, which is my mother country. Because we—little girls didn't travel too much at that time, so we would spend the summer months there and winter months in Egypt, as I said before. Therefore, it was a new experience for me, and I think it was the most beautiful country. It makes you feel sad that what has happened to it during the past three years.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Now, I was married in 1970 to Louis Frieje, and we've been very, very happy, and I still meet a lot of my friends. I belong, still, to all of the clubs. It is most enjoyable that part of my life and my business was making friends. Now, I don't know what else you’d like to know. I—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Marie, did your husband have a business of his own?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Yes, he had but is retired.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: What type of business did he have?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: He was in the restaurant business.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: What restaurant was that?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Freije Grill on Clinton St. That's where all his brothers had their businesses—Freije Electric, Freije Wall and Paint Store—and they have all retired, of course, and they are enjoying life very, very much.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">At the present time, there's something—may be of interest to you, being that we have no children, either him or I—we sponsored my husband's grandnephew from Lebanon to come here and live with us and put him through school. He came in 1976, December of '76. In 1977—January, we put him through Broome Tech, where he is a student now, studying Electric Technology and Computer and English. He will graduate in two years. In 1977 he had met a lovely Lebanese girl, who is a Lab Technician at Lourdes Hospital, and were married and living with us. They are a delightful couple. It is good to have young people around the house because I have always loved children—my nieces and nephews are like my own children. We are a very closely knit family—both the Freijes and my family by the name of Nejame. My brother, my younger brother who was in business, and his family is still running the business in Johnson City—which is called Hi-Fi Record and Tape Shop. They have had it for about 40 years, also. My brother is deceased, therefore, the children are running the business and have been very successful also, very well known through the area.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Oh, that sounds very interesting and I think that was very nice of you to sponsor someone like that, to make someone happy plus yourself.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: We're delighted to do that.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Marie, why don't you tell me more about the store—go into the store—I think it was fascinating.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: The gown shop—my gown shop, of course, after 21 years I gave up the bridals and went into sportswear—mainly as the sportswear business was flourishing and that was </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">the</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> thing to do. Besides, after my brother passed away in 1959—ah 1947, I beg your pardon—it was, you know, I have to run the business all alone, and of course, it was difficult to work nights and days, also. So, I turned it into a sportswear business and I loved it very much. I finally was getting a little too old to run it anymore. (Laughing). I'm 70 years old now—so I thought it was time to relax and pay attention to my music and to my wonderful husband, and we've done some traveling, of course. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">We went twice to Lebanon since I was married, in 1970 and 1972. We were going back to Lebanon in 1974 and the war broke, so that took care of that. And—but—really—due to my—in regards to my business, thank God, we had a very successful business and as I see my customers, now, all over the Triple Cities when I meet them on the streets, markets, and in clubs which I am still very active, they—I'm almost ashamed to say it, but they do miss my store very much.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Yes, we all do, Marie.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: I certainly made many hundreds of friends, and in fact it, just about two weeks ago I had my, as a guest here, my first bride whom I outfitted—very, very first one. When I got married she sent me a prayer, in a picture—framed picture which I have in my kitchen, and I see her every morning, noon, and night. (Laughing). And she visited me last—two weeks ago, and we had a very good time altogether—reminiscence over friends and over old times and what have you.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Sounds interesting—Marie—I’m sorry—pardon me.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: When I came here, not knowing that we were to remain here in this country, and so—after I went to school—and we all loved it here, and my mother, father, and my three brothers—I'm the only girl and the youngest in the family—imagine me, 70 years old, the youngest in the family. (Laughing). So, but, my intention was to be a concert pianist, turned out to be in business. (Laughing).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: In business—you did very well.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Certainly.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: We do miss you!</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: But I still love my music. I follow it up—have time to practice—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Something you love—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Yes, yes, I do!</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Marie, will you tell me about the Lebanese people—their culture, traditions, maybe some foods?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Well, yes, now, that's something of great interest—were that now—when I got married, I didn't know a thing about cooking—(Laughing)—because I never had the time for it, but since then I have became a gourmet cook—even in Arabic—in our Lebanese food—and I love it. Of course, now, you know they—the last few years, they’ve been talking so much about—[door bell rings]. That's all right.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">[pause]</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Marie, we'll continue now.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: As I started to tell you before—the last few years they—been talking about health foods and health food stores opening up—even the markets are starting to carry health foods. Our Lebanese people—the culture—we’ve been raised on health foods since we were children, and we still do. Take, for instance, your wheat germ—that, they sell today and tell you how to do it—your lentils—it's all health food stores—health foods—and yogurt, which has become very popular, they are talking so much about it as being very healthy. This is something that we have lived on—all our life. Our bread is made with the health—what you call flour—is very healthy food. We—the Lebanese cook mostly at home rather than go out to eat, because we have such variety. Now, at our table you'll find three kinds of olives, two different kinds of cheeses that we make out of the yogurt—we make the hard cheese that looks like the American cream cheese, for instance, but a little bit tarty—we have oil on the side with it, our cheese, which I learned to make myself, and all this—so—all our preserves, jams—we make ourselves—and in our food you have, in one dish you could have a balanced meal. You have your sauté meat, which we use mostly lamb rather than beef—we use very little beef—except for roasts, you know—and have your meat—your vegetable—could be okra, could be asparagus, could be peas or beans, and with tomato sauce—that's your main dish, and cooked rice—on the side—not boiled—but it’s cooked so that it would have a flavor to it, you know—butter—and—so—and a salad. Therefore, you have a balanced meal right there, you see—but no Lebanese table is complete unless you have your olives and cheese on the table after you have your regular meal. That, you'll find that practically in every Lebanese home. And we have a tremendous variety of dishes—tremendous. I don't think you will find that in a, really, many European or American dishes—great variety. As I said before, it's all health food.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Now in regards to our way of living—mode of living—we are very—Lebanese people are a very close-knit together—very friendly and really very highly educated. You never hear of any Lebanese, whether in this town or any town, that has gone wrong—that has gone to jail, that has done any destructiveness or anything—you hardly hear anything like that—good law-abiding citizens, and very friendly and very active. Most of the Lebanese people in this town, especially, in the area, are in business and are successful and have a good name—I'll vouch for that. Wherever you go, it really is the same thing—there—the ladies are very cooperative and friendly and take good care of themselves and their families—they dress very well.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Marie, you are a very good example of what you are saying.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Thank you. Anything else you'd like to know?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Well, do you have any other recollections you would like to tell me?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Well, you might like to have a little idea how we spent our years in Arabia—during the First World War.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: That would be interesting.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Excuse me, as I said before, we were in Lebanon and we couldn't get out because they closed the Mediterranean Sea, so we had to stay there. My uncle, that is my mothers's brother, who was a general in the, then Syrian Army, at the time. Because after the First World War Syria and Lebanon were divided—see—and so we—he sent us to Arabia—not Saudi Arabia—this Arabia is another section beyond Syria, and of course, I was only about six years old at the time, and over there, in Arabia, the Sheiks happen to be very dear friends of my uncle in Egypt, who was the Secretary of the Sudan. You hear a lot about Sudan these days—Sudan at the time was under the, both Egypt and Sudan was under the English government, and my uncle was Secretary to the Sirdar, like a governor—the government—you know—Sirdar, they call it. He was a very prominent man—in fact, was decorated by the Queen Victoria. And from there, my brother, Fred, who was only seventeen years old at the time, and my younger brother, Arthur, and my mother and I, we were there for three years. Through these Sheiks, my brother Fred, who was working for the Emir Faisal in the—means “Prince”—Faisal of Arabia, who later became King of a—ah—ah—Arabia (Iraq), and he was working with Lawrence of Arabia and was decorated by Emir Faisal, and through him we were able to get to Egypt on an English boat—English war boat—we—ah— Did you ever see the </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Lawrence of Arabia</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> movie?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Yes, I did.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Well, that's us—there. (Laughing). Yeah—that experience, I have pictures and see—but I forgot this part—where we're leaving Arabia—we went on camel back for nine days. The year before, I take this back, the year before, my brother Fred took my young brother, Arthur, too, and put him in school in Egypt and he came back. The following year, Mother and I and Fred we went to—we're going back to Egypt, and we stayed at Faisal’s in the Aqaba area—that's another part of the picture where—and we went on camel’s back for nine days and nine nights and he had, he was coming back—see, to Arabia to take the soldiers—we had 600 camels and 900 soldiers—and we—day before we're to arrive in Aqaba—where Emir Faisal was—he—we—had outlaws hitting us with a—that's which called machine—caravan—with sub-machine guns, and I was riding the dromedary—I made my brother valet, must as well call them valet, pulling them on the camel—you know—make him walk—and I went on dromedary—that's the one—the hump—you know—dromedary, and because where I was before—I was riding on the camel with my mother—made like a tent—see—my mother on one side and me on the other. You know how little girls, they get—(Laughing)—as flat as I was—I get fidgety—I wanted to drive by the dromedary so as we were riding, and these sub-machines came at us—the bullet just passed my face and he grabbed me and threw me down—luckily we were going down into a little valley—which is unusual in a desert, you know—and of course, of all crew came out with machine guns, and they—we escaped those outlaws, and then that night we were in tents and they're going to kidnap me—see, they had me dressed as a boy—and in fact, later on, King Faisal presented me with a dagger, which I still have, yet. And my brother, too, he took his own dagger, which only carried by royalty, was put here on display in Binghamton and Johnson City when we first came here—was written up in the </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Press</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. It was a really beautiful thing, which my nephew has now—Fred's son in New York. And it was really quite, quite an ordeal, to—well—especially after I saw the </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Lawrence of Arabia</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, I said, "Dear, if only my brother was here."</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: To see that—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: To see that, you know, he died but we had quite a fascinating life.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: I think it is—what should I say, “exciting”? It was very exciting.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Yes—yeah—yeah, but—The reason we came here, my brother Fred, who was, after the war—when we were in Egypt already—he was working for the French Embassy, through my uncle who was a doctor. He was in politics a lot, so he got him a job at the French Embassy. But what happened, we had to escape here, and because the King's entourage—they were all Muslims, and he was the only Christian amongst them, so—of course—there was that jealousy—they were after him—after his neck—that, for my uncle sent him over here, because my brother and my dad were here, see. My brother—was—my oldest brother was at Columbia University, and so—ah—we came here—we had to escape from these people who were after him—you know—so that when they came here for a year or so—maybe they'll, you know, forget all about him, and then my younger brother—we put him in school, so—went, let's see, on 1918-1922, and they were here—and the, so we thought we'd come, my mother and I, would come here—my aunts and uncles did not want us to come here at all. She said, “Even if I die on the boat, I want to go and see my children and bring them back, and my husband." So, we finally came in 1922, and we stayed here and we liked it very much that we never went back, our family was here.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Marie, that was exciting.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: See, my father came here before the war—because he came to visit his brother—he had his business here. He was a cabinet maker in Lebanon, and he came—his business was still going on—he came to visit his brother—then the war broke, so he didn't go back, and he stayed here throughout the whole war, then I didn't know my father until I came to this country, now my oldest brother— So it was an quite exciting life—a wonderful life together.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Guess so—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Wonderful life together. We are a closely knit family—we all live together—we—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: I thought the Lebanese were that way. I think it is very nice.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Like the young lady from Harpur was interviewing me about the—our people—especially our old people. She said—I said, “We don't throw out our old people—we take care of them.” I said my mother was 92 years old, and my sister-in-law and I took care of her. None of our Lebanese people put our old people in nursing homes or forget about them—they always live with one of the children, they are well taken care of, which is something we are proud of—it is our background—we can't help it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: I think if some of our children, some of our people took heed on people like that—maybe they would turn their life around and make nice things, different for the elderly.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Sure, they must remember that they, they're gonna be old someday. How would they like to be thrown out any old way in a nursing home or private home of some sort? Because, well, it just isn't right—that’s all, the fact that we’ll all get old, what’s going to happen to us.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: You have to think ahead, too.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: This way your children would know how your grandparents were taken care of, and maybe they would learn a thing or two and just pass down the generations. Yes, that's something our generation of foreign extraction should never forget, their culture of their heritage.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: I agree with you.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: They should be proud of it. There's a book written by Ted Roosevelt, and one of the passages is, "If you were not—uh—uh—this—you could only make a good American citizen if you don't forget your heritage.”</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: That's very nice.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: That's, we loved this country—that's why we remained here, and you can't beat this country anywhere in the world, but we still love our country, too. And we're proud to say we're Lebanese. You could be proud to say your own background from which your parents came from, should never forget it. Believe me, I think the American people—we're all American now, but outside of the Indians, naturally, they respect us more now because they understand us more, the world is getting smaller, you know, so—they appreciate the various cultures of the different nationalities of their background, you know, and all of us should be very proud of it and not be ashamed of.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: I know I am.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: We make good citizens, even though we were not born here, we abide by the law, I'm sure all foreign extraction people do—so people are very interested. (Laughing).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Is that all you want to tell me? Is there anything you want to add to that?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Well, let me see now. All I can say, I'm a little sorry I'm not a little younger so I could go back into business—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: That's right—I know what you mean. And start all over again.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Thank God I have my health, have my good husband, my comfortable home. I love my music, and I still am active in all the clubs and help people and everything else. Our Lebanese club is a small club, but active in the community, we hold a dance in the Fall always—and the proceeds go to St. Jude's Hospital for the children—retarded children, and then we hold a card party in the spring—that's for our scholarship fund—we give the three high schools and any student that school feels needs it—you know—give three, three scholarships—that's about it—you know.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Marie, that was very interesting, and I want to thank you very much for the interview.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: I want to thank you for asking me. I hope it's worth your while.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: I'm sure it is.<br /><br /><br /></span></p>
<br />
<p></p>
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55916">Interview with Marie Nejame Freije</a>
Date of Interview
1978-03-06
Interviewer
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Politylo, Nettie
Interviewee
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Freije, Marie Nejame
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35:13 Minutes
Date of Digitization
2016-03-27
Collection
Broome County Oral History Project
Subject LCSH
Freije, Marie Nejame -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Lebanon; Johnson City (N.Y.); Bridal shops; Businesswomen -- Interviews; Cooking, Lebanese; World War, 1914-1918
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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Interview with Marie Nejame Freije, Part 1
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Freije, Marie Nejame ; Politylo, Nettie
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Freije, Marie Nejame -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Lebanon; Johnson City (N.Y.); Bridal shops; Businesswomen -- Interviews; Cooking, Lebanese; World War, 1914-1918
Description
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Marie Nejame Freije talks about her upbringing in Lebanon, and her family's flight from the country to Egypt due to war and the grueling nine day journey that almost killed her. She discusses running a bridal shop in Johnson City, NY after coming to the United States. After 38 years, she retired and married. She details Lebanese culture and foods, as well as the fundraisers in which she participates that benefits St. Jude's Hospital and area high school students.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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1978-03-06
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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English
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Sound
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Recording 24
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2016-03-27
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Broome County Oral History Project
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35:15 Minutes ; 16:46 Minutes
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b0beeb664da950ecb8ffee504e48b7b5.mp3
640c6746647c65abe515d55ec0b1c7a6
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Broome County Oral History Project
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Broome County -- History
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Binghamton University Libraries
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The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
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2
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In copyright
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
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1977-1978
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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<p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Mrs. Marie Nejame Freije</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Dates of interviews: 6 March 1978 and 6 April 1978</span></p>
<p></p>
<p><strong>[Interview #2: 6 April 1978]</strong></p>
<br />
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Marie Freije of 60 Matthews St., Binghamton, NY, on April 6, 1978. Marie, we will go back to the interview you had the last time, and tell me more about the camel trip you took across the desert in nine days and nights.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: I'll be glad to—try to recollect everything that we went through. To begin with, we were living in the—what they call the Arabian Mountains, and my brother, Fred, who was at the time 18 years old, and that he joined the First World War, and he was associated with Prince Faisal of Arabia, who later became King of Iraq. The Prince sent him to the mountains to fetch about 1000 soldiers, but they were pro-French and they were fighting against the Turks. My brother was taking my mother and I back to Egypt where we lived—so, my mother and I traveled along with the caravan of 600 camels and about 1100 soldiers, most of them, naturally, on foot. The trip to Aqaba, where Faisal was, took us nine days and nine nights through the Arabian desert. Now we, my mother and I rode the camel. They built a basket—big basket on top of the camel for us to lay in and they had a cover (net) to protect us from the sun and the sand. Fortunately, we did not come across any sandstorms at that time of the year—so, and—we were at times running short of water, as there was very little water in the desert—just what come across probably two or three oases where there would be a pond of water, dirty water with scum and what we to—mother would use her veil—thin veil—put it over the water so we could drink from it—take water and carry it ’til the next stop that we will find another oasis. On the way, about two days before we reached Aqaba, we came across outlaws that are in the distance. They started shooting on us with submachine guns, but fortunately we—that was about the first time that we were down in the valley, because usually the sand—I mean—the desert is all flat—mostly, and the whole caravan started to go down—before that—I wanted to ride the dromedary, which, it would be a young camel—which is the one hump. I made my brother's valet go down so I could ride his dromedary. I was about six years old—six and a half—and—so was riding it—that's when the outlaw was shooting at us, and the bullet just about passed my ear. He grabbed me and got me down—if that hit me, I would not be here to tell the story. So, we went down and then the great big horde of men, Arabs, went up with machine guns, singing and hollering and they started shooting back at them—so, when the outlaws—so that—we are overpowering them, they took off but we have to be on the cover all the way to hold up the train—you might say—so that night we arrived at this Sheik's domain—in the desert. They lived in the tents there. This Sheik is under the governorship of the Prince, so we were treated royally, and they gave my mother, I, and our maid a tent by ourselves, and they had guards. So, when the guards were not there during the evening—now before going to sleep, the maid was combing my hair, which was way down to my hips, and then one of the Arab boys started to peek through the tent and one would tell the other, "Didn't I tell you this was a girl, and it's not a boy?” because they had me dressed as a boy to be disguised, because it wasn't safe for a white girl to be dressed in a dress, and below the ear and stood it top of the head—(supposedly hair) would kidnap her—so the maid heard them—and she ran out to my brother's tent and told him. So, the Sheik got hold of these boys, tied them up, and he put other guards around our tent for the night. The next day we traveled one full day to reach Aqaba, and we arrived and the Prince had accommodations for the women—meaning, my mother and I, and our maid who’d take care of us. We were there one week. My brother was commended by Prince Faisal for doing such a fine job and accumulating all these soldiers to be—he took the—dagger, which only royalty wear, which was solid gold, dagger with all precious stones—and put it on my brother's waist. We still have this dagger, which is very beautiful. As a matter of fact, the Prince gave me a dagger—black onyx, like with mother of pearl, and I was dressed with this Arab-like costume until we reached Egypt. It really was quite an experience.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Oh, I forgot to tell you, after we were attacked by these captives, by the outlaws, we ran across another attack—and this time was a boa (constrictor)—these huge snakes that stands up, all black, stands up in the air—it—well—it just could kill anybody—in the path, stand up like a pole, you know, and the men then shot with—several men shot with submachine guns and killed her. That was another bad, very bad and horrifying experience, that's why I’m afraid of snakes all my life, due to that experience.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Are there many snakes like that out in the desert?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: No, not too much, but those that are there are huge and deadly—they're deadly, yes, very much so.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Marie, when you were going across the desert, you slept in the tent. How about the others?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: They slept just on the sand—yes, oh yes, sitting up, sleeping any way they can find a little comfort—you call it comfort.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: What did you say that you had for food?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Food, they had to prepare, ’cause we had bread and cheese and hard-boiled eggs and other—some wheat germ that is cooked—you know—that you can eat cold, you know, with bread to last it for nine days. We were lucky to have enough food and water so that we didn't really starve or died of thirst—yes—we survived that—and then from there we went on an English boat—you know, to Alexandria, Egypt. We got—arrived there four months before the war ended. We stayed there ‘til 1922, when we came to this country.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Marie, at one time you told me you took a trip with someone to Egypt, and I think it would be interesting to know about Egypt, plus telling us about Pyramids there.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Oh yes, I made my first trip back to Egypt and Lebanon in 1964, and my uncle was a doctor there—he took us all over, of course. I was a young girl when I left there, about fourteen years old, when I left Egypt to come to this country. It was a new experience again for me. Naturally, we went to the Pyramids and they're really something to see. It was beautiful, I got our pictures there.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Marie, how would, say, the height of a pyramid would be, according to a—maybe a building around here?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Perhaps, if I can recollect , it could be something like to be probably, to be forty stories, that the highest one, then you have the middle one, then you have the small one, then you have the—then you—the middle one, the only one that has the tombs inside, where some of the Pharaohs and Princes and Queens are buried there—you have guards to take you in—is—rather frightening, I never went in—really—‘cause— (Laughing).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">They are all man-made—as you know—in those—you, the Pharaohs—thousands of people died building it, and they carry all these stone on their backs all the way up, many of them would fall or get killed.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: They say they are made so perfect, is that right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Well, perfect for those days, yes—they are not made putting with cement with each other, just—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Isn't there anything else you want to tell us, or experiences you can tell us—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: They had beautiful museums there that are really beautiful to see, and the mosques—Mohammed mosques that are very beautiful. The walls are—at least of couple of them that were there were made of alabaster—all the chandeliers are gold filigree, and this is another thing, when anybody has to go into the mosque you cannot go with your shoes—you take your shoes outside and the guard gives you linen slippers to tie on your feet to go in and see the mosque.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: That's what they call their Holy Place, isn't it?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Yes.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: I think at one time you told me something, the Pyramids—about a certain record that was made.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Oh yes, yes—they have—this is something that the Frenchman invented and wrote the book and developed a record—also, it is what they call "Light and Sound." It is done at night, because they—it's done in French, English, and Arabic at different nights—they have chairs like a theater, you know, and there's the commenter who commentates, you know—the narrator, I should say—and the light would be thrown on the, let's say, on the Sphinx, say, for an instance, and the voice would come out from the Sphinx and they would tell the history of Egypt and the Pharaohs and Queens, etc. It was beautiful—very beautiful. In fact they were thinking—it was written up here in the U.S. papers that they were trying to see if they could do it on Washington, D.C., but it never went through. It was something to see—fascinating—very interesting—they are talking about the certain one of the Pyramids, and then the light would go on and the sound would come out, as if it was coming from inside. It was beautiful.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: I don't recall anything else. Marie, do you have anything else to tell us?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: No, I just wish that my brother was living at when they made the picture of </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Lawrence of Arabia</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, because him and Lawrence were together with King Faisal—they worked with King Faisal. Did you ever see the movie?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: Yes, I did, Marie.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Well I lived it—I lived it again—because that was, we were mixed up in it—you know. (Laughing).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Nettie: To you—it’s more interesting since you lived it than it, more than it would be to us. Well, Marie, I appreciate you telling us more about this. Thank you very much.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marie: Thank you too.</span></p>
Streaming Audio
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55916">Interview with Marie Nejame Freije</a>
Date of Interview
1978-04-06
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Politylo, Nettie
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Freije, Marie Nejame
Duration
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16:46 Minutes
Date of Digitization
2016-03-27
Collection
Broome County Oral History Project
Subject LCSH
Freije, Marie Nejame -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Lebanon; Johnson City (N.Y.); Bridal shops; Businesswomen -- Interviews; Cooking, Lebanese; World War, 1914-1918
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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Interview with Marie Nejame Freije, Part 2
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Freije, Marie Nejame ; Politylo, Nettie
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audio/mp3
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Freije, Marie Nejame -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Lebanon; Johnson City (N.Y.); Bridal shops; Businesswomen -- Interviews; Cooking, Lebanese; World War, 1914-1918
Description
An account of the resource
Marie Nejame Freije talks about her upbringing in Lebanon, and her family's flight from the country to Egypt due to war and the grueling nine day journey that almost killed her. She discusses running a bridal shop in Johnson City, NY after coming to the United States. After 38 years, she retired and married. She details Lebanese culture and foods, as well as the fundraisers in which she participates that benefits St. Jude's Hospital and area high school students.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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1978-04-06
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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English
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Sound
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Recording 24
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2016-03-27
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Broome County Oral History Project
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35:15 Minutes ; 16:46 Minutes
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c3a18069bfe5794ca2e111e9fa19e8c4.mp3
76cd6b34a1185ff94d332158d338a972
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
12/1/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Marion and Dr. George Rejebian
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Armenian Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information
Biographical Text
Marion Rejebian was born in Bronx, NY to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. Marion went to Hunter College and became an elementary school teacher. She taught for a few years of her marriage and then she devoted her life to raise her children.<br /><br /><br />Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George and Marion currently resides in Binghamton and together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
<strong>Armenian Oral History Project</strong><br /><strong>Interview with:</strong> Marion and George Rejebian<br /><strong>Interviewed by:</strong> Jacqueline Kachadourian<br /><strong>Transcriber:</strong> Cordelia Jannetty<br /><strong>Date of interview:</strong> 1 December 2017<br /><strong>Interview Setting:</strong> Binghamton<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br />(Start of Interview)<br /> <br /><strong>00:05 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian oral history project. Today is No ̶ December 1, 2017. Can you please state your names for the record? <br /> <br /><strong>00:19 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Sure. I am Marion Rejebian and this is my husband George. <br /> <br /><strong>00:24 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I am-yeah I am Dr. George Rejebian. <br /> <br /><strong>00:28 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And where were you both born? <br /> <br /><strong>00:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I was born in the Bronx, New York City and George was born in Binghamton.<br /> <br /><strong>00:38 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And who are your parents and where were they born? <br /> <br /><strong>00:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Okay. My parents were Garabed and Dicranouhi Ekizian, E-K-I-Z-I-A-N. And they were born in Chomaklou [Turkish: Çomaklı], which is in Turkey which is a very small hilly village just south, south of the Erciyes Mountain [Turkish: <em>Erciyes Dağı]</em> and near to Syria. George, why do not you tell them? <br /> <br /><strong>01:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yeah, my parents, my father came from Hadjin [Turkish: Saimbeyli], which is the town in the interior of Turkey near Adana. Adana is on the, on the Mediterranean. And it is, it is a little inland. It was a mountain village. And my mother came from Sivas, which is ̶ or Sebastia as they call which is a larger city, actually. And do you want to know the way they got here? <br /> <br /><strong>01:47 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course, yes. <br /> <br /><strong>01:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, sure. Well, my, my mother went through the massacres, and she, with her grandmother and her brother and her sister. They did the death march they went from Turkey to Deir ez Zor, which is in, in Syria present. Well, it still was not Syria then. And then her brother died in route. And of course, the atrocities were terrible they were. They kept no fa ̶ food or water and had to improvise as best they could. I remember my mother telling me how they, you know, when the horses make footprints water gathers in there, they had to drink that water to stay alive, you know, to get to, but ultimately, she ended up in in Beirut in an orphanage. Her grandmother, she lost her brother on the death march her grandmother passed away, and her sister and her made it to an orphanage in Beirut. She was in that orphanage for several years, and then was sent to Marseille, France. And from Marseille she immigrated to Havana, Cuba. She worked there, whatever work she could get in through an arranged marriage, it was always in those days, you know, they, they would, they would know somebody and somebody apparently knew my father and mutual friend, you know, they mutually knew each other. So, he went to Havana on in those days, they used to have boats, gambling boats, you know, that used to go to Havana from New York, and he went to Havana on one of the gambling boats to get to meet her. And so they got married in Havana, and I still have the marriage license which is in Spanish [laughs] and, and they and brought her back. And then they settled they lived actually on Corbett Avenue which is where our church is and that was the Armenian ghetto at that time. That was where the biggest concentration of, of Armenians were. And the next best one was the first ward Clinton Street in that area. So that was the way they got here. And, and then apparently, they lived on Corbett avenue for some time. So that was how they got her. Do you want to go any further? <br /> <br /><strong>04:45 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, of course. I am going back to the villages that your mom lived in. Was there any stories that she ̶ you recall her telling you or how old and how old was she when they had to leave? <br /> <br /><strong>04:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh when she, when she went through this? <br /> <br /><strong>05:01 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, do you ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>05:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh she was, she was probably a young girl about eight or eight or ten years old, you know in that area and, and her sister who is Mangooshag's mother, do you know Manooshag Seraydarian? She is my mother's sister her, her mother and my mother were sisters. But um anyway, they there were a lot of atrocities along the way. I mean, the Turks. They, they herded them like animals. They did not give them any food. And some of them who had gold pieces and whatnot, were able to buy favors like, you know, maybe get some food and whatnot. But a lot of them died along the way I mean, in that, in that area and, and of course, hurt. I will step back a step, before she left Sivas, which is the town she came from. The Turks came in they rounded up all the all the men. And first, her father was, was a photographer and a teacher. And so they rounded up the more intelligent ones and they and they shot him in front of their families shot them or hang them. And so before she left, Sivas, she had she they witnessed this is this little kids so you know, every atrocity you could imagine it was, it was just horrible but everybody who has been through that death march tells a different story. <br /> <br /><strong>06:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But it is all the same really. <br /> <br /><strong>07:00 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, well, I mean a different way that they were affected. But and as for my father, my father lived in a in Hadjin, Hadjin and Zeytun were the two towns that fought against the Turks. <br /> <br /><strong>07:22 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>Well many towns did, but they were ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>07:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, the, the main ones, you know. And so it was almost like 100 percent Armenian village. And they knew that these massacres were coming in it was developing over a period of time. So they rounded up all the young boys on seventeen and under, and they snuck them off to Adana and got them on ships and sent them to the United States because they knew they would not ever be get killed, you know. <br /> <br /><strong>07:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And your father was one of them. <br /> <br /><strong>08:00 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father was one of them. So he did not actually go through the massacres. But he came through Ellis Island. And he had ̶ he did not know any English. And he had a five-dollar gold piece, English gold piece in his pocket. And that was it. And they had to, you know, then like all the other ones like they, they just made it on their own. I mean, there was no assistance or no welfare or anything like that in those days. And my father tells me this story, how they would go and, and wait in lines for the union bosses to pick who was going to get work that day. And they never picked the Italians or the Jews or the Armenians. It was, you know, and so he said, we finally got tired of standing in line and going hungry and having nothing thing to do. And we went out and started our own businesses or we went to work. Yeah so yeah, that was how my how my father got here. <br /> <br /><strong>09:14 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> George, did your father, your father was a cobbler? Did he know that trade when he came? Or did he learn it?<br /> <br /><strong>09:21 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah he knew, he knew that trade. But he would not start his own business immediately work for Endicott Johnson, like a lot of the other Armenian immigrants did for a few years so he could get enough money to start his own shoe repair shop, you know, right. And just as your father did with the rugs, right?<br /> <br /><strong>09:45 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Do you want me to tell? <br /> <br /><strong>09:46 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh yes. <br /> <br /><strong>09:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> As we go along, or just wait until ̶<br /> <br /><strong>09:49 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Do you want to go? <br /> <br /><strong>09:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No, I mean, I, I can ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>09:52 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I can go on and ̶ [laughs] <br /> <br /><strong>09:55 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> All right well so my parents were, as I said, born and-both of them were born in Chomaklou. Um, they had an upper village and a lower village, you know. And so they were like, you know, these arranged marriages I think when they were born. Oh god that would be nice for Dicranouhi or something like that you know so they knew for a long time that they would probably get married to each other I guess. But what happened with my, my mom was, was only two years old when ̶ at the beginning of the massacre. And she went ̶ she and my father both went through the entire death march. My mother's parents were killed when she was, she was an orphan at two years of age, and her grandmother who was probably in her forties, you know, raised her and my, my great grandmother had a handicapped son. So I cannot even begin to imagine how that even worked but she had to carry him ̶ he was ̶ he would not walk. So they would walk a distance on the death march and then she would wait there with the other villagers the ̶ my mother would, and then she walked back and get the son put on his back and, and walk forward. I mean, it was just unbelievable kind of deprivation. They all went through the starvation and the lack of water and all of that, you know, and how they survived is just a mystery to me, but my, my father was a twelve years older than my mother. So he went through the same ̶ similar things the whole village was told to evacuate and, and start walking. And she finally ̶ and she went through Syria and different. <br /> <br /><strong>12:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> That was-they went through Deir ez Zor, which is a desert. <br /> <br /><strong>12:16 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah and she ended up in ̶ and my father too ̶ They both ended up in Beirut, Lebanon. And so she, she and my father managed to get through like a grade school education ̶ I would say my mother was very interested in in schoolwork and she, she had a beautiful Armenian penmanship ̶ beautiful, and they were always interested in education in the little village of Chomaklou, you know, would send their kids to America, like, like, like in George's situation. He was a little older. So they sent him to the states ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>13:08 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah my father was seventeen. <br /> <br /><strong>13:09 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah. And the purpose always was to, if you could get an education fine, if not, then get a job and then send money back to them in order to get a little bit of aid because they had nothing, they really did not have anything but their land or their apartment or whatever. And so that was how they, they ̶ my mother was seventeen when she married my father, and my father had come first to the United States with that idea of, of either getting an education or a job at that point, he got a job. He was an oriental rug repairman. And, but he was a very ambitious person and he learned the trade of rug repairing. And then when he was able many years later after he brought, he brought his family over to the United States and settled them and then he went ̶ was very astute in his rug repairing and really learned the business and he had a boss who was Syrian and happened to like my father and always encouraged him. So eventually my father went off on his own and had his own loft, and not only repaired oriental rugs with expertise but also started a business where he would put an ad in the New York Post, the New York Post, it was existent in those days. I made one now ̶ You can imagine he would put the ad in the paper, highest cash prices paid for your oriental rugs. Okay? And then he would go, they did not have cars then that he could drive, I mean, he was not, did not have a license, he would take a bus or whatever get to wherever this apartment was, he sometimes had to go up four or five floors high. They did not even have many elevators in those buildings. And he would inspect the rugs. And if he felt that he could turn a quick profit, you know, like, a couple hundred dollars or whatever it is. He would buy the rug, bail it while he was there, get it down the stairs somehow. I mean, these are ̶ my father was not a big man. He was like, five, six [5’6”] and you know, not really a heavy man and he would bail the rug and then somehow get it down the stairs and then haul a cab or whatever ̶ However, he was able to do it. And then pretty soon in this little loft that he had at 276 Fifth Avenue where all the other merchants were ̶ he accumulated enough rugs where he was very successful, you know, and, and that was how he got his start.<br /> <br /><strong>16:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, an interesting thing about both our fathers came from Ellis Island. And, in fact, there was a wall there and their names are on there. And I think the year that they came through and all that, but my father tells me that, you know, they did not know a word of English and he said, we, we came into Ellis Island, they took us in a room and asked us a whole bunch of questions. And he said I ̶ he said the fellow might as well have been talking to the wall because he said I did not know what he was saying. So he said every question he asked me I said yes. [laughs] And the examiner finally said, well, you are okay, you are okay. Go ahead. And that was, that was how they ̶ and your father probably had a similar experience ̶ coming through Ellis ̶ have you been to Ellis Island ever? You should go sometime.<br /> <br /><strong>17:25 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> I have been on the Staten Island ferry ̶ right and see the Statue of Liberty.<br /> <br /><strong>17:32 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> It is well ̶ they have a museum ̶ exhibit it is very nice now.<br /> <br /><strong>17:34 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> At the other side of the island.<br /> <br /><strong>17:39 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But anyway, so that was how they got here. And, and you know, they had to make their own way there was they did not have really any help except maybe their friends. In the beginning, the, the men would live together, and like there would be five or six and if they got if one of them had a job, then the rest of would eat ̶ could eat you know? Yeah, that was that kind of thing until they got going where they were they got themselves established enough to be able to support themselves, you know, but they did it usually it was a group situation where the group of would rent an apartment. And of course, there was a lot of funny stories about that. Maybe you do not want to hear those. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>18:31 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> So going back to when both of your parents lived in their villages. Do they recall any stories? Before the gen ̶ the massacre had occurred and did they know when they were ̶ had to do the death march walk the death march, march. What was going on? Did they know that?<br /> <br /><strong>18:55</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> The political scene you mean.<br /> <br /><strong>18:57 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, and ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>18:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> My parents did not but I think maybe George's father knew or some ̶ he was older. You know, my mother was only two. So what did she know? And I do not know that her grandmother really knew no, I really do not know.<br /> <br /><strong>19:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, my father's, my father's family raised horses. And so of course, they, they went out and traded did a lot of trading. So, as a result, they had more of an opportunity to know what was going on politic ̶ politically in the country. And they felt that there was a massacre, you know, when 1896 and then they had won in 1915, the big one, and in 1915, because Hadjin where my father came from was such a remote village. They, they really were able to sort of survive that. And then in 9 ̶ the big battle of Hadjin in 1918, which was three years later with ̶ my father had left by then. But the Turks decided, well, you know, we have had enough of this. We were going to exterminate them and get rid of them. And so 6000 Hagjinses fought. I mean, you know, they had gotten supplies and arms and so forth. And they fought and only thirty-five survived. They were, they were just totally, totally annihilated, you know, by the Turk. So, but before that, my father, I mean, yeah, they did know. Tha ̶ the Turks never really treated them that well. I mean, they were like, second class citizens. They never were never treated as equals. And I think if you saw that movie ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>20:53 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> The promise?<br /> <br /><strong>20:53 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>The promise?<br /> <br /><strong>20:55 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Yeah, you, you could get a feel of it ̶ they were how they were treated. You know, they, they were looked down on. And but they ̶ The church was very ̶ The church was as it, as it has kept Armenians together in this country. It was even more powerful there. I mean, that every village had its churches, and they, they were very devoted about how devout about how they kept their traditions and so forth and so on. So yeah, and I think they did, I am sure even in your father's village, they knew this thing with ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>21:39 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I do not know, he never talked about politics so I do not really know.<br /> <br /><strong>21:42 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, despite what the Turks say, and you know this about, well, they were deportations or, or war refugees and all that. This was an organized plan from the highest sources in the government to exterminate the Armenians. They, they wanted to get rid of them. They did not want them in their country. And by whatever means they had to do it ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>22:06 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Ethnic cleansing. That was what it was, yeah.<br /> <br /><strong>22:07 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, yeah. So it was a, it was an organized genocide. It really was. They still do not own up to it. But it was.<br /> <br /><strong>22:19 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes. Before that, before the two massacres occurred. Do you recall any stories from either of your families about what it was like living among the, with the Turkish people? You were saying how it was like, second, they were second class citizens. But anything else that you would like to add?<br /> <br /><strong>22:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They never really, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>22:47 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, we cannot personally tell you how it was.<br /> <br /><strong>22:50 </strong><br /><strong>JK: </strong>Yeah, of course.<br /> <br /><strong>22:50 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know we were both born here. And so I do have, I mean, I have done a lot of research on it, and I do it. Papers telling what life and Hadjin was like and maybe I could give you that website. But if I can, you can look it up. It is about sixty-five pages. We were, we were ̶ an organization has done all this research and they tell you their, their medicine their, their folklore, how they did their holidays, you know when so forth. That if you want to really get into that, that might be interesting.<br /> <br /><strong>23:31 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah of course I would love the see that thank you. And for both of your parents, did they obviously they spoke both Armenian did they also speak Turkish or ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>23:43 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They spoke Turkish. Yes, of course. They spoke Turkish.<br /> <br /><strong>23:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Your father spoke some Arabic.<br /> <br /><strong>23:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Not much, you know, but uh, I am sure enough to get by.<br /> <br /><strong>23:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Now my father's family ̶ because they were in, they were in you know, business. They, they spoke ̶ they had to speak Turkish, Armenian and Arabic was, you know, quite prevalent in that area. But he spoke, he spoke Turkish; they had a dialect very unique to the village of Hadjin and he, he normally, he normally spoke that dialect or he spoke Turkish. He did not speak Armenian, true Armenian, Western Armenian we know what I learned my Armenian from my mother who was you know from Sivas from a city and her father was a teacher and so they I guess you could say that they were just as Spanish there was the Castilian Spanish and there was Catalan and all the other things so that was where I learned my Armenian and I did not know English when I started kindergarten, as many in my generation, you know, did and so I went to kindergarten and after a year or two they put me back. [laughs] Because they said, you know, he was stupid. Well in those days, there was no second language or anything if you did not know English, you know, you were stupid as far as the teachers were concerned. So I ̶ my father was furious and he was going to go down and, and raise the roof with the school and you know, why are you putting my boy back in my mother said, let me handle it. She said, I will take care of it. And all of a sudden she was taking baklava to the teacher make [indistinct] and all that. And lo and behold, they put me back in my class. And but I remember the ̶ it was kind of a pain learning English. I mean a real pain because I had an accent for a while until, you know, I really ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>26:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And you mixed Armenian words with English words.<br /> <br /><strong>26:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah I used to mix Armenian and English and of course that would the teacher would you know I want to go [speaking Armenian] you know, the teacher? Where do you want to go? And I think many of us are in that gen ̶ know, you know your uncle Art I guess he knew English better than that I did but, but you know at home my father spoke [the language from Hadjin] which I have a pretty good knowledge of and my mother spoke Armenian. And then the Turkish I learned was because they, when they did not want the kids to understand they spoke Turkish.<br /> <br /><strong>26:55 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And they swore in Turkish. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>26:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, and it is a phonetic language so it is very easy to pick up. Turkish is very ̶ it is relatively easy language to learn conversational. I do not know about the written because I cannot write it but yeah, so anyway, it was you know, we, we were first generation and that was a ̶ there were a lot of stigmas in those days that have gone away now, you know, they did not accept foreigners quite as readily as they do now and so forth. So yeah, I think but, but the prime focus I think that all of our parents had, and, and I think it is an Armenian thing is get an education. Because my mother used to always say, you know, they can, they can take all your money, they can take everything you have, but they cannot take what you know in your head out, which ̶ once it is in there, it is in there, you know? And so they were very education oriented. And they, wherever possible made sure that their kids got a college education, right?`<br /> <br /><strong>28:15 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Right.<br /> <br /><strong>28:16</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>28:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And I am, I was very proud of the fact that I was actually the first girl in my, you know, where the village that my parents came from, who settled in New York, that I knew of that even went to college or graduated from college. So, and I would not go away from home. My parents would not allow that. I mean, they did not even want you to go to camp. If it was not right next door, you know. So I went to Hunter College. I was fortunate that I got in, it was a very difficult school in those days to get in and I graduated I became a teacher, an elementary school teacher and loved it taught for a few years of my marriage and then the, the role of the woman in those days was to stay home with your kids once you had your own kids, you know, so, but you the education you use in raising your own children you know and, and so I never felt that that was a waste.<br /> <br /><strong>29:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And, and you know, even in our generation, there was a stigma against the ̶ for against, the immigrants and so forth because I, I encountered it several times like when, when I, I went through SUNY but after that I went to Georgetown. And, and I remember in a lot of interviews, Georgetown did not do this to me, but a lot of the places that I interviewed and it was very competitive. They would say, well, you know, what do you want to, what do you want to do this for? Why do not you be a shoemaker, like your father and so forth? You know, they put you down. And, and I felt that and really hurt, you know, but, but I guess we had a little of what our parents said, we stuck to it. And I went, you know, through Georgetown, and then Columbia and so forth. But education was a very, very important thing in our lives, you know, and we made sure that our kids got at least a college education.<br /> <br /><strong>30:44 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And growing up in you grew up in Bing-Binghamton and you grew up in New York City ̶ were there are a lot of Armenian people around you?<br /> <br /><strong>30:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yes, yes our for, for one thing we always on the weekends. We always had picnics at State Park. Well, at first it was Ross Park. They used to do it because they did not have cars and so forth. But later on it was State Park, but you were pretty your social life was probably 90 percent with other Armenian kids, you know. And so, you had a lot in common you were very comfortable. The church was sort of the center of all activity, even though we did not have Badarak every week or in fact when I was like ten or twelve we only had Badarak every three months. And But still, you know, it was that was sort of the glue that held us together. And ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>31:56 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yes, and even in New York City where you know, I did not I as a as a child growing up I probably did not go to church any more frequently than George did even though I had a church you know to go to because you had to sit on a bus or, or a taxi or whatever to get there so I did not really I used to go to church probably on the holidays like a lot of people do now and, and then I did not go regularly to church until I was really able to take public transportation and, and go on my own and then I joined the choir and got more active with the youth and then joined ACYO, you know and, and most of my friends were are of Armenian background, too. And I do not know what else did you want. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>33:05 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well one thing about the Armenians. I mean, we heard it from our parents, they loved this country. They were, they were like, so thankful that they had the opportunity to come here. And in fact, your father said that he knelt down and kissed the ground remember once and, and they wanted to assimilate even though they wanted to keep their traditions and their religion and everything, they wanted to assimilate, my mother went to, to school to learn English so she could become a citizen and you do not become ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>33:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And that was true of our ̶ my parents as well.<br /> <br /><strong>33:45 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And I think that is one of the problems today is you see, like the Hispanics want to keep their language. They want to speak nothing but Spanish. They do not really want to assimilate and become Americans. But we had a very strong desire to do that. And, and I think it was a plus because it helped us to go further in the society that we had to compete and live in you know.<br /> <br /><strong>34:14 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And going back to that did your How did they keep like the Armenian traditions while trying to simulate Arme-American ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>34:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because they were they were always, you were always going to somebody's house somebody was coming to your house on Sundays there was always either a picnic or, or a function where they got together so that it was not like you saw Armenian kids once a month or at holidays; it was like this was your part of your life. I mean, you were with them all the time. You see, and they may and you were there that you made friends and even as you as we want ̶ went on into school and got you know, friends of all French whatever they are and everything. We still kept our ties. But we did not. But we did not like hold ourselves out as, as, as different. We tried to be like everybody. And I think that helped us that was a plus, you know. So that that is I think the way that they kept them together is probably the church number one, and then social activities. You know, by social activities, I mean, families came and went together. They did things together.<br /> <br /><strong>35:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But they also mingled with other non-Armenians, they mingled.<br /> <br /><strong>35:49 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, yeah, well, they tried to assimilate. But there was language barrier, you know, they ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>35:54 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Tried to assimilate without losing their Armenian heritage. They always were even in a big city, my parents were always very proud of, of who they were and where they came from, and the values that they had as Armenian Americans was always with them until the day they died. They were like that, but, you know, just as his parents went to English school to learn, you know, in the evenings, my mother used to go in the evenings ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>36:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah they really made an effort. They wanted to ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>36:32 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They wanted very much to become citizens. And they were very proud of that, you know, and, and they always, were very, very grateful that they had the opportunity to be an American citizen to come to this country. And they said, you have no idea of ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>36:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> The fact that they were not living persecution every day.<br /> <br /><strong>36:57 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> That is right, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>36:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>You know.<br /> <br /><strong>37:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They always were very grateful to be here.<br /> <br /><strong>37:04 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And so I think, you know, it is like with our kids and, and so forth as the generations go the melting pot, you know, they, they get more and more but, but still, I think that Armenians have pretty much kept their, their traditions and they were all you know, there, there are certain things that are, that are sacred and we have kept most of it.<br /> <br /><strong>37:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> We have but you know, we were only ̶ our parents were born overseas. So what are we first generation second generation, but as there was more and more intermarriage, you know, we, we noticed that the traditions are getting less and less, you know, and that was too bad. I hope that does not happen [indistinct] eventually.<br /> <br /><strong>37:53 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, you know they eventually they do not speak the language which is pretty sad because I think it is, it is good to have a second language. It is actually a ̶ an advantage. And, and because Armenian was my first language I still a lot of times I think in Armenian and I mostly pray in Armenian because that is how I learned to pray you know, but there is and every language has things that are very difficult to translate. It is not the same thing once you translate it you know? So you get the advantage of both really.<br /> <br /><strong>38:45 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And did you guys both know how to read and write Armenian or just speak?<br /> <br /><strong>38:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well George did not have that advantage ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>38:53 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> We did not have the advantage of an Armenian school here. We never had that.<br /> <br /><strong>38:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They had an Armenian school you know, where they would have somebody come from some organization and, and teach Armenian but you know, I learned the alphabet and I am sure that if I really religiously read frequently I would have retained I have not read. I know the alphabet but I have not really forwarded that at all, you know, but I, I could easily go back and learn and but I speak it fluently and understand it very well.<br /> <br /><strong>39:39 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And do your children or and your grandchildren do they know Armenian or ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>39:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Our ̶ my son is fluent in Armenian and then he was we spoke we had decided that we were going to teach our kids Armenian as their first language. And so we did that faithfully with Gary and then he married ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>40:01 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Well and the Gary he married a first-generation ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>40:04 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And then he married a first-generation girl so he heard Armenian being spoken all the time so he really can, in fact he has even taught himself how to read and write but Vivian can understand some of it but she does not really ̶ you know it is hard when, when like our son was three years old and going on to nursery school then Natalie I mean Vivian was born and you, you start switching to the English I was not able to do it as well.<br /> <br /><strong>40:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah but see Gary's-both of Gary's boys are like they are acolytes they serve on the altar ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>40:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Oh yeah we have kept out Armenian traditions.<br /> <br /><strong>40:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And they have stayed close and in fact their younger, their younger one they adopted from Armenia. The, the first one, our first grandson is, is theirs and the other one they went to Armenia and adopted him. He looks just like us you would not tell the difference. [laughs] But it is very interesting and he is ̶ oh he is just great I mean he is ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>41:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Seventeen now.<br /> <br /><strong>41:18 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah soccer player and everything just good now Viv-and Vivian has-Gar-so Gary has two boys and Vivian has a daughter and a son. The daughter just graduated from Boston College last year the son is a junior at Fairfield.<br /> <br /><strong>41:38 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> University.<br /> <br /><strong>41:39 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So I do not know how far you want to go with this but ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>41:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Our daughter became an Orthodontist like her father and so you know we're very proud of our children and grandchildren.<br /> <br /><strong>41:58</strong><br />Yes, I see. So going back to raising your family earlier on ̶ what was it important for you to teach them the Armenian culture like ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>42:09 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well it was natural.<br /> <br /><strong>42:11 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Natural.<br /> <br /><strong>42:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> It was always very natural. You know, I mean.<br /> <br /><strong>42:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And like you were, when there was church, we were expected to go, it was not. I mean, they did not say do you want to go to church to today.<br /> <br /><strong>42:23 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No and, and we raise our children with the church, I mean, we they, they always went to church whenever we had church, and now.<br /> <br /><strong>42:34 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Like our generation we all sung in the church choir, because you were expected to ̶<br /> <br /><strong>42:41 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, you knew they needed you. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>42:44 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Not it was it was expected and ̶<br /> <br /> <br /><strong>42:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And Vivian our daughter, our son married in Armenian and Ar-American and our daughter married and Armenian American as well. So they, have been able to keep more of the Armenian traditions because, you know, it is, it is they are around Armenians a lot, but they are also around non Armenians too. So I do not know, I do not know how to say that.<br /> <br /><strong>43:20 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, and I, I think there is something to be said about if you marry someone that has that you have a lot in common with, there is a lot better chances that that marriage is going to work out. If you are like night and day. You do not really like we can make jokes about each other sometimes. About our fe ̶ some Armenian things and because I mean, she is no different than me. You do not get offended. But if there is a big difference, sometimes they do not understand where you are coming from and you do not understand where they are coming from, you know?<br /> <br /><strong>44:05 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And how did you, you two meet it and before I get in ̶ before you get into that, do you know you wanted to marry another Armenian or ̶<br /> <br /><strong>44:14 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, it was sort of expected you know, and in our case it worked out but I think that ̶<br /> <br /><strong>44:26 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, we met we met in a very, it was kind of bizarre. I was at Georgetown ̶<br /> <br /><strong>44:35 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Dental school.<br /> <br /><strong>44:36 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah in dental school and also in a Navy program.<br /> <br /><strong>44:39</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Right. <br /> <br /><strong>44:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And I, I served five years in the Navy after my education but anyway because there was the feeling that I always wanted to go to church if it was available. I was going to the when every opportunity I had ̶ I went to the Armenian church in Washington, you know, and at that time, they did not even have a church building. It was in a basement where they had an altar and the priest used to priest used to come every week and so forth. So her brother was in the Navy, and he was stationed in Washington. And so he used to come to church. [laughs] So, so we did not really know each other, meet each other, particularly but the church organist had a party and invited all the younger people. And so I met her brother, and got to know him pretty well and we became pretty good friends. So, one weekend, he said, “Why do not you come and I will show you?” I did not know New York City that well, he said, “Why do not you come to New York City?” And, and he said, “We will go out” and he said, “I will get a couple of dates and you know, and so forth and so on.” So, so we, we took the train, we went to New York, and he said, “Well, I want to go home and clean up before we go out.” So we went to her house, and, and I met her then that was the first time I met her. And so he said, well, I am ready. Let us go. And I said, “You know, I got a stomachache. I think I am going to, I think I am going to stay here and just visit with your family.” <br /> <br /><strong>46:27 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I was seventeen. <br /> <br /><strong>46:29 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I wanted to get to know her better.<br /> <br /><strong>46:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And George is six and a half years older than me. And so I was only seventeen and a freshman in college. And so Harry, my brother did not have any thoughts even [laughs] see to me. How does this kid's sister five years or six years is a lot a big difference at that stage in your life. And but we got to know each other and he would ̶<br /> <br /><strong>46:59</strong><br />Yeah, we dated on and off for four years till you finished college.<br /> <br /><strong>47:03</strong><br />Well he did not come frequently. So if he came once in the summer, then he had asked me to hold New Year's Eve for them or something, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>47:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So then I did my internship in the Navy. And so they told me that they would, they would send me to California, you know, to the Naval Hospital there. And one of my friends was going to go to the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia. So I, I wanted to be where I could get to see her. So we got the Navy to agree to let me take his slot in Philadelphia and he would go to California.<br /> <br /><strong>47:49 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my goodness.<br /> <br /><strong>47:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You were crazy [laughs] I would have gone to California.<br /> <br /><strong>47:58 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Anyway, that, that was the way we met. And it was not it was not arranged or anything like that, like our parents. <br /> <br /><strong>48:04 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No. And it was not. I mean, I was determined to finish college. So, I mean, that was four years that we were just seeing each other occasionally, but we ̶<br /> <br /><strong>48:16 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah but I was in the Navy then we got married. <br /> <br /><strong>48:21 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And then when he got his internship in Philadelphia, and he was coming frequently to the house and you know, then we really got much more serious.<br /> <br /><strong>48:32 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Okay, let us let her go on with the questions.<br /> <br /><strong>48:34 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh yeah ̶ and so going back to Armenian culture. What do you think is the most important things about Armenia that really make us strong and what helped Armenian people survive?<br /> <br /><strong>48:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I think the cul ̶ well, I think that is an easy one. I think the culture is very, very much focused around the church and the traditions.<br /> <br /><strong>49:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And family, and family.<br /> <br /><strong>49:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Family and the traditions of the church, you know. And I know they get ̶ where I am from, I have some accounts of what life was like when in my father's village, it was pretty much oriented around, around their, around the church and, and the traditions of the church and so forth in the way they did holidays and so forth. And I would say probably, again, the church has always been the glue of keeping the Armenian people together.<br /> <br /><strong>49:41 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You have to understand that we did not have TV or anything, and their entertainment was getting together with each other and in nice weather, it would be even in New York City, a big city, we would go to Van Cortlandt Park, and have picnics, you know, occasionally not as frequently as George did here in Binghamton. But ̶<br /> <br /><strong>50:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well they did, they did a lot of things like where the parents would come together, the kids would get up and say poems or they would sing, and you know, it was very much family-oriented. And so I guess maybe does that answer your question?<br /> <br /><strong>50:21 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, of course. And what about the do you think the language and the homeland are just as important as the church or a little less?<br /> <br /><strong>50:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Now? You mean now? <br /> <br /><strong>50:33 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.<br /> <br /><strong>50:34 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You mean, Armenia now? All right. I think you have to understand that Armenia was under Soviet rule for forty years. And in this in the communists, outlawed churches, I mean, they closed all the churches down. They made them museums. The Armenian Church survived because they have been in Etchmiadzin for, for ̶<br /> <br /><strong>51:03 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Many centuries since seven hundred or six hundred.<br /> <br /><strong>51:06 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So, so the, the Russians sort of took an attitude, well, we are not going to, we are not going to help you, we are not going to do anything to help you. But we will not do anything to hurt you as long as you stay in line, you know, if you do anything against us, we will get rid of you. So, so Etchmiadzin was able to survive very well. And because we went there in (19)72, when it was under Soviet when it was Soviet Armenia, and we asked, my host was another doctor, who was a member of the Russian politburo, the communist politburo, you know, so we said, well, we would like to meet the [indistinct]. And he knew the [indistinct]. He said, I do not go to church. But he said, I will take you there and so forth. So as a result of that, I think religion got very much diluted. I do not think that there is the well there still is they are still very devoted to their churches, but ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well not ̶ they are devoted to the churches, but it is just like in ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But maybe it is not as intense as it was.<br /> <br /><strong>52:27 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And have you ever been to the villages that your parents grew up in?<br /> <br /><strong>52:32 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No, unfortunately, we, we only went to Armenia and Lebanon. We tried when our kids were young when they were ten and, and eight or something like that. We went to Beirut, Lebanon ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well we went to Istanbul first ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Where yeah where ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because her father was in the wrong business. And he was doing business there. You know that? Yeah. And then from Istanbul, we went to Beirut, because Beirut was kind of the Armenian. I think ̶<br /> <br /><strong>53:03 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Where they all ̶ many of them had settled. Yeah. And where my parents got married from, you know, and so we did that. And then we went to Armenia for a few days. And it was, as George said, it was under Soviet rule. So ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>53:20 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I had an invitation to lecture in their, at their medical school. So it was, you know, it was sanctioned by the government, but you always had to, had to be with somebody, you would not go off on your own. And, in fact, this is a funny story. We stayed in the hotel Armenia, and they had a Russian person on every floor. They spoke Armenian very well. But they had a Russian woman usually. And we were going out with some friends and they said, “Well, you know, you can leave the kids.” They were like ten and twelve there.<br /> <br /><strong>54:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> We would never do it today but we did it then.<br /> <br /><strong>54:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Yeah you can leave and we will look after them. So, we, we came back. And we said to her, well, you know, how di ̶ how were the children's? Awful! [laughs] We said what happened, you know, apparently, all the rooms were bugged. You know, so they heard all this jusch-jusch-jusch up in the ceiling. So Gary gets on a chair and he gets pfffftttt [laughs] they did not take that too kindly.<br /> <br /><strong>54:37 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my goodness that is amazing wow. <br /> <br /><strong>54:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So they were under a very totalitarian regime for forty years and it affected everything you know, I mean, that youth grew up in that environment so.<br /> <br /><strong>54:53 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>As far as the language is concerned, there is Eastern dialect and in the Armenian language in Russia they now they speak the eastern dialect. And we ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>55:07 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Speak Western ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>55:08 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Speak the western dialect it is very difficult for those of us who speak the Western dialect like to really understand a lot of the words that so we do not really communicate that well.<br /> <br /><strong>55:21 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And the church or courses neither read has what they call[indistinct] ̶ It has its own language.<br /> <br /><strong>55:27 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> The old language, the old ̶<br /> <br /><strong>55:28 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Which even we do not understand.<br /> <br /><strong>55:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, we do now because, you know, go to church frequently, but ̶<br /> <br /><strong>55:36 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Excuse me.<br /> <br /><strong>55:38 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Okay. And just one more question. How would you guys identify yourself as Armenian American or American Armenian?<br /> <br /><strong>55:47 </strong><br /><strong>MR & GR:</strong> American-Armenian.<br /> <br /><strong>55:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> For sure. We are American of Armenian descent. We are very proud of our American and Armenian heritage, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>56:01 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>You know, it is Armenian, it is our heritage, and we hope that our kids will remember their heritage. I mean, we are all Americans, of course, and that is our primary loyalty.<br /> <br /><strong>56:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And our grandchildren all of them, all four of them are proud of their Armenian heritage but, you know, I do not know whether how much of this will linger on in future generations ̶<br /> <br /><strong>56:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I do not think they will ever lose the taste for the foods.<br /> <br /><strong>56:26 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah, that is for sure.<br /> <br /><strong>56:29 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, they are the best.<br /> <br /><strong>56:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But they are all proud of their heritage.<br /> <br /><strong>56:33 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And we are.<br /> <br /><strong>56:36 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course. And is there anything else you would like to add to this interview or anything he would want to mention?<br /> <br /><strong>56:44 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> What is that Marion?<br /> <br /><strong>56:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Is there anything else that you would like to mention or for this interview? She is almost through.<br /> <br /><strong>56:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, I think that probably as a whole just as, as our parents, you know, came here with actually no money. No, they did not know the language and everything. But they had the drive to get ahead. And I think they put that into their kids because most of the kids have, have, you know, been become very successful in American society, as you know, from all the I mean, we have a lot of Armenians in, in very important places in this country. So I think that our desire is that you know, our, our kids keep that same initiative.<br /> <br /><strong>57:42 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes.<br /> <br /><strong>57:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And-and instill the love of education in their children and you know ̶<br /> <br /><strong>57:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> To try, to try to do better, you know, try to do your best and try to do better and,<br />and not, not rely on government to take care of us. We want to take care of ourselves, you know, so.<br /> <br /><strong>58:09 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course. All right. Well, thank you so much. <br /> <br /><strong>58:12</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You are very welcome.<br /> <br />(End of Interview)
Keywords
Armenians; Armenian church; Family; Language; Genocide; Culture; Assimilation
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Interview with Marion and Dr. George Rejebian
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Broome County Oral History Project
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Broome County -- History
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Binghamton University Libraries
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The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
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2
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
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Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
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1977-1978
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bower, Marjorie
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Wood, Wanda
Date of Interview
1978-04-21
Collection
Broome County Oral History Project
Duration
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33:09 Minutes
Streaming Audio
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55865">Interview with Marjorie Bower</a>
Date of Digitization
2016-03-27
Subject LCSH
Bower, Marjorie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Nurses -- Interviews; World War, 1939-1945; Public health; Chenango Valley, (N.Y.); Chenango Valley Central Schools
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<p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Marjorie Bower</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Wanda Wood</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 21 April, 1978</span></p>
<br />
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: This is Wanda Wood, interviewing Marjorie Bower of Highover Road, Chenango Bridge. The date is the 21st of April, 1978. Marge, you've recently retired from, ah, the nursing profession, and we'd like to know something about your early years of nursing and, ah, on up through until your retirement.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: Well, nursing has been—ah—was my choice of professions from the time I was a little girl—ah—having had a mother who was, ah, chronically ill, and I had some knowledge of the medical profession through, ah, the doctor who took care of her, and through taking care of her myself at home. So I was rather anxious to become a nurse and, ah, to do it in a professional manner. So I was able to, ah, get in training at, ah, Binghamton General Hospital.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Where did you—what was your early schooling, before that?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: I graduated from Union-Endicott High School and, ah, I graduated in 1934 and went—ah—I was only 18 then, or 18 shortly after I graduated, so then I went immediately into training. And training was quite different in those days than it is today. We, ah, planned on, ah—our first six months of training was what we called the probationary period, and we were hazed, ah, quite a bit by the upperclassmen, and—ah—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Do you remember any incidents about that?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: Well, we were—I can't remember specific instances except being told to go get a—different kinds of instruments which, of course, didn't exist. And everybody always got a big charge out of the “probies” coming and asking for these strange instruments that were nonexistent. So they had quite a few laughs on us, but of course when—when we got to be juniors and seniors we did likewise to the probies. But, ah, it was a very strenuous training. We had to be up and have our breakfast by six—by six o'clock, and then by six-thirty we had inspection. We wore big black ties and white aprons and starched uniforms, black stockings and black shoes. And if everything wasn't </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">perfect</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, we were sent back to our rooms to make it perfect—that is, our bow tied right and our apron exactly, ah, pristine white, and if—if it wasn't in that condition we—we were sent back, and we were still expected to be on the ward at five of seven where we had transfer. And during the day, we were supposed to have two hours off during the day. We were very fortunate if we </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">got</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> it, because the head nurse always seemed to—it seemed to </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">us</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">—to delight at finding some extra duty for us to do. That extra duty could be cleaning medical cabinets, cleaning up utility rooms, straightening up, ah, bath trays. I might say that the bath tray—that every patient had a bed bath because patients stayed in bed a long time. In my early period we had, ah—that was before penicillin and before the antibiotic drugs, so nursing care was extremely important for medical patients and for surgical patients too, because we had nothing really to combat, ah, infections. And some of it was </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">sad</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> times because we saw many people die, that today would have been back </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">working</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> in ten days, from pneumonia or from a post-op infection. But we lived through it and—ah—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: What were the hours?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: The hours were, ah, seven to seven, with supposedly two hours off during the day. Now we had class time, and if our supervisor on the floor could arrange it, she made </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">sure</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> that our two hours off was our class time. But sometimes she couldn't </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">do</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> that, so we might have an extra hour when we could sit comfortably in class. And in class we—had a—nurse's training had advanced to the point where we had a great deal of Anatomy and Chemistry. We had laboratory work. We had Nursing Ethics and—ah, I'd like to say something about nursing ethics in those days, because that was the day when—ah, if you were on a ward and a doctor came anyplace within your presence, you </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">stood</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, and although you didn't </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">salute</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, you were at attention. And you stayed that way until the doctor left the floor, and—ah, I was quite surprised several years later to, ah, be accompanying a physician friend on a floor and have her, ah, looking at a chart and see a student nurse come over and say, "I am </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">sorry</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, Doctor, but I </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">need</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> this chart," and remove the chart from the doctor's hands. And I—I was </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">astounded</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> because—ah, we—ah, couldn't think of that in our time, if we had to stay on duty an extra </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">hour</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> to do our chart, we would have stayed and not dared to even approach the doctor who was reading a medical record. But, ah, that's a change in the </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">times</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, and when I think sometimes back to—ah, the way—when we were, felt that we were </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">so</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> subservient, that I, I, I’m glad of the progress, really.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: And that's just been a few short years, really.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: That's just been a short—it seems like a few short years—I suppose it's been quite a few, really. But—I graduated from training in, ah, 1937 and went immediately to work as a night nurse at General Hospital. And the hours then were—ah, twelve hours, seven to seven. My pay was—ah—eighty-five dollars a month. If you worked days it was eighty, but because I worked nights it was, it was eighty-five. They gave us a stipend of five dollars for working the night shift.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: And did you live—did you live in the hospital?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: We lived in—we lived in the, what we called the dorm, and had a—had a small room. It, it was, it was adequate and—ah, the living conditions were good, but we were still under the strict supervision of, ah, nursing ethics, and in those, you didn't go overtown unless you, ah,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">wore gloves and a </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">hat</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">—at all times. And I remember distinctly, one time, my mother had bought me a—a quite expensive hat. It was real nice, and I was coming back from overtown across the Washington Street bridge, and the wind came up and my beautiful hat blew into the river.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Oh no.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: I got back to the nursing home and one of the supervisors saw me walk in without a hat on. And this was the time when I was a graduate nurse, but I was still called on the carpet for having been overtown in unladylike apparel, because I lacked a hat. And no explanation that my hat, which had cost so much, had blown into the river, would suffice. So I, ah, of course, was a little bit beyond the area where they could dole out punishment, but I did feel reprimanded and made sure I wore a hat for the next few years.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: With a hat-pin!</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: Well, I—I never got one with a wide brim after that. Or else took it off going across the bridge. And then my mother became quite ill because—ah—so I quit, ah, nursing at the hospital and took care of her for a year. And after her death I went back into public—into private duty. And I found that quite satisfying, I—through all of this period I really—there is a great deal of satisfaction in nursing because—ah, during my—during my night period of nursing I—I really would like to mention some of that because, ah, I think some of the nurses today perhaps don’t see it because it is gone, become such a technical field, but it was—ah—a real great, ah, feeling to have somebody who had come in in the middle of the night in a bad accident and then have them several days later, ah, tell you that it was your presence and your smile that really helped see them through a difficult period of life when they had no family around for a few hours and things were so rough. And with the roads the way they were, General Hospital was in the area where we saw many tragic accidents coming down Conklin Avenue and Vestal Avenue, and of course they were admitted at General. And the comfort you could give parents and relatives when they came in after somebody was hurt—and I don’t think there’s any other field—professional field—where you really have this satisfaction of really being close to a person in their hour of need and fulfilling that need. And no matter what the other circumstances of nursing were, you </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">did</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> have that special and personal satisfaction, even though the pay was low. And I—I did private duty for about three years and then I decided to go on into an area of specialization, so I went to Syracuse University and, ah, did work in Public Health. And I worked for a year and a half in Public Health in Onondaga County. And that, too, had its special compensations in going into homes and dealing with families as a whole unit, from childhood to the old-aged.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: How did it differ in Syracuse? Were you connected with a hospital up there?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: No. I was not connected with a hospital. I was in—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: —an agency?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: No. I was in Syracuse University and after I finished my special preparation for Public Health, ah, we had student experience there. I worked in schools for a bit—for school—for student experience as a Student Public Health Nurse and then I worked with, ah—what they called the VNA. That was a Visiting Nurse Association in Syracuse who did home nursing, where in that period of time we went into homes and—ah, gave—ah, maybe gave a bath and taught parents and family to take care of elderly people who were bed-ridden and might go in for shots. And this was during the War and doctors were very scarce, so our services were in great demand. And it was a very busy time for me—both as a student and then when I finished my training I worked for the Onondaga County Nursing Association. Worked out of the Town of Marcellus and the Town of Tully. And the—of course the War was still going on, so that we really were very—we were very busy and yet it was very satisfying to, ah, do this, and of course it was much different. You didn't have the close supervision that you'd had in the hospital. And because of the lack of doctors, nurses were called upon to do a great deal more. We did a lot in pre-natal work, and checking the parents and in instructions. It was—Public Health is mainly a preventative and a teaching program. And it was interesting.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Then I came back—my Dad was sick and I had to resign from that position and I spent a year at home with him. And after that—ah, I decided to go in—I had an opportunity to do school nursing for the Broome County—ah, is it County Board of—the Broome County Board of, ah, Services [Broome County Board of Extension Services]. Anyway, they provided school nurses for the schools in Broome County who did not have their own school nurse-teacher. Then, because after I’d worked for them a while, I could see that this required further specialization, I went back to school and took nurse—courses in school nursing—school nurse-teaching.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: At Syracuse?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: I took some at Syracuse, but I started with—a Syracuse Extension at Harpur, and I took some at Harpur and through the next—ah—because I stayed in school nurse-teaching from then until my time of retirement three years ago, I, ah, took courses at Cortland and Oneonta and, ah, did get my Bachelor's degree from Oneonta. So that I would be fully qualified for doing school nurse-teaching.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: That must have been quite a new branch of nursing at that time, wasn’t it?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: It—it really wasn’t a new branch of nursing. There had been the school nurse-teachers, but just a few, but—ah, during the next few years from 1947 on, school nurse-teaching </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">grew</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> because there was a need for it in the schools. There was a need for people—nurse-teachers who understood and could put the nursing profession really into the teaching situation, where you had children and you could teach Health along with giving the necessary care and preventative medicine. It was—it was a combination of public health and teaching in a—almost a captive, ah, audience group.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Was this with young—ah—all ages?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: This was with all ages. When I started, I was covering Broome County. I was doing school nurse-teaching in the Town of Binghamton, and Chenango Forks, and in Harpursville and in Port Dickinson. I covered all of those areas at, ah, various times. And of course this—this cut your time—it was a lot of travel time. We did immunization clinics in all of the schools. We did hearing tests and vision tests and tried to cover all the children in all of these schools. And although we didn't have the time for teaching then, as we would have liked to, I—I think we fulfilled a great need because many of these areas, I—for instance, areas like the Harpursville area, they only had one doctor in the town and, ah, that was Dr. Torrence and he was a wonderful man to work with. He was a G.P. and did general surgery. And also there—he was Health Officer, so all in all we—ah, between the school doctor and yourself, you did a great deal of medical work and preventative work among the children.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Now how many other teachers—what was the staff in this—ah—?</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: Four. There were four of us in this, ah, when we started. Then that was phased out in 1950, ah, 1 [1951], and I went to Harpursville for a year and after going to Harpursville I, ah, had the opportunity to come to Chenango Valley Central Schools—they had just centralized and I spent the rest of my, ah, working days as school nurse-teacher at Chenango Valley. And this saw—it—it’s a great deal of satisfaction. There isn’t any area of nursing, whether it’s specialization or general practice, that there isn’t—ah, satisfaction there. It has its, ah, shortcomings, or had times when—ah, when things don't </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">go</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> right, or, ah, you—you can’t get something corrected that you know </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">needs</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> to be, because of perhaps the financial situation of the parents, they’re not able to have the child’s eyes corrected or surgery that the child may need, but by working through various agencies in the county you usually can help the parents get some help. And, ah, it—ah, I—I think it fills a need and I hate to see the trend now where school nurse-teachers are being phased out, because it is an area of specialization and you can’t put—ah, </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">I</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> saw the need when I went into it, that I needed more education to—to do the job, but at the present time, school nurse-teachers </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">are </span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">being phased out and either R.N.s or clerks being hired to take their place and they, ah, put in—children of our county are being—or of our </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">state</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> or maybe across the nation—are being </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">short-changed</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> because of this. They’re not getting counseling to help counsel them in their need and—ah, also the—the </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">mental</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> health counseling that, ah, a school nurse-teacher can give. And I really would like to—put in a </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">plug</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> for that. That—ah, it's the </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">wrong</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> direction to take, which many of our schools </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">are</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> taking. Our school boards and our school administrations are, ah, not being far-sighted enough. And I realize it's because of financial reasons that—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Is that a fact, really?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: This, this, this is a real fact—that so many schools have phased out their school nurse-teaching programs and have hired R.N.s. Legally the R.N. cannot do as much and it is because we are living in a technical age, in an age of specialization. Unless the people who are fulfilling their job </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">have</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> the know-how, the job is not going to be done as it should be done. And in the end it's the student who is, ah, short-changed. And the student is the future parent and the future citizen of our </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">country</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. And we are </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">not</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> doing enough in the area of, ah, sex education; we’re not doing enough in the areas of drug education in the way that it </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">should</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> be done; we're not doing enough in just plain </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">health</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> education, </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">consumer</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> education. Our students are being bombarded with all of these—ah, aspirin ads and medical ads on television where they’re </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">not</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> getting, really, the health education in school to, ah, </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">combat</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> this </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">trend</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. And I think—ah, too many people are still saying education should just be the three Rs and feeling, because of the financial reason, that they are going back to that, and that's not preparing our children—our future parents—for the world it </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">is</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Because</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> they’re coming </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">up</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> into this world, as it is.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Do you think—do you feel that parents are bowing out of their responsibilities in that way? In educating their children on these problems that you mention?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: Well I—I feel that in—in some ways parents are bowing out, but let’s face it, the parents haven't had the education themselves. What—ah, unless </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">they</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> have some help, how are they going to educate their children? I mean, it, it’s, it's a fast race and it's—it's just as hard for parents to keep up with it as it is for teachers. That's why we need, ah, people who are really specialized in this field. We had—ah, the State has mandated health education teachers in the schools, but, ah, some boards are getting around that by trying to have a school nurse-teacher do a school nurse-teaching job and go in the classroom too, and, ah, some are bowing out of it because, ah, they get one or two parents who, ah, object to the—the health education in the schools, and when I say health education, I mean, we know that venereal disease is, ah, on the uprise in our nation, and we, ah, conveniently may </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">say</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> that it's being covered in our health education classes, but ah, I think if somebody went in and observed some of the health education classes, they would find the teachers are afraid—to teach about it. Be—because of parents—a few parents' repercussions. They really feel that this isn't the thing for the school to do, but where </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">are</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> the boys and girls going to learn about it?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: On the streets, right?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: Well, on the streets or after they </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">have</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> it. I—I think that, ah, our State is </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">trying</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. They have passed laws so that, ah, boys and girls who feel they have—might have a venereal disease can go in and be checked for it, and it will be kept confidential. And that's a—a </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">big</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> plus. That's been done by the legislature. And of course they—the legislation has </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">tried</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> to say that we will have these things covered in school, but ah, our school administrations are, ah, reluctant to take the big step. We had a good case of that when Sue Crouse—when she went into, ah, some of the schools and with some of the Girl Scouts, where parents—ah, well, the Letters to the Editor were pretty rife in the papers for quite a few </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">months</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. And, ah—this is getting maybe off the subject of nursing, but, ah, it’s something that's a community </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">need</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. And I think the school nurse-teachers have been some of the first ones to see it. To try to, ah, fight for it and arrange for programs in the school. I don't know, maybe this is one of the reasons we're being phased out! But I think the big reason is financial, because I know that all of the people in education are there for the good of the children or there wouldn't be any education, or </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">most</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> of them. But altogether it has been a very satisfying career, and I—ah, there are many specializations in nursing and, ah, allied fields of medicine, so nursing is taking on a new dimension in—ah, the nurse-practitioner now, in which they are becoming a closer doctor's assistant in that they are going away and taking specialization in—ah, examinations. They are doing this in schools where the school pract—school nurse-practitioner will be examining children under the close supervision of the pediatrician or school physician. They are also taking specialization in working in doctors’ offices and doing initial examinations to—ah, shorten—ah, well, to assist the doctor and to maybe give him a little more time on the—ah, the—ah, </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">critical</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> aspects of the patient care.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: It sounds like a wonderful career for some children that don't want to go into extensive education.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: That’s right. And, and it has taken such a turnabout. I mean, it has become so technical now that even in the hospitals where—ah, where in my period of training we practically stood up and saluted and bowed when the doctor came in, the nurse </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">now</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> is more of a co-worker with the doctor. And, ah—her, ah, place in patient care is being given more recognition, as it </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">should</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> be, because she is doing a great deal more and is much better trained to do it. So it's, it’s a great career and it brings you close to people—if you, if you like people and you want to help them, you want to be close to them and do as much for your community as you can, you can’t go into any better profession than nursing.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Wanda: Well, you certainly have proven that and I know you’re much admired in this community for what you’ve done.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Marge: Well, thank you.</span></p>
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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Title
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Interview with Marjorie Bower
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Recording 5
Subject
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Bower, Marjorie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Nurses -- Interviews; World War, 1939-1945; Public health; Chenango Valley, (N.Y.); Chenango Valley Central Schools
Description
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Marjorie Bower talks about her motivations for becoming a nurse and her work in the field; nursing ethics, working as a night nurse as a post-grad, public health training in schools and in the public sector, work during WWII, and her experiences as a school nurse-teacher, and her views on the expanding field of nursing.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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audio/mp3
Language
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English
Type
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Sound
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Bower, Marjorie ; Wood, Wanda
Date
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1978-04-21
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2016-03-27
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Broome County Oral History Project
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33:09 Minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fbbd2b25f22b1619078049700acde8d2.mp3
31b8f68951ba677d60d82558db7c8533
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
2/15/2019
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Kachadourian
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Duration
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20:47
Transcription
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Mark Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen
Date of interview: 14 February 2019
Interview Setting: Vestal, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:02
JK: My name is Jacqueline Kachadourian and I am interviewing for the Armenian Oral History Project for Binghamton University. Today is February 14 2019. I am interviewing Mark Kachadourian. What is your name? And where are you from?
00:25
MK: My name is Mark Kachadourian and I am from Vestal, New York.
00:34
JK: Tell us about your parents. What are they? Are they Armenian? Both Armenian?
00:45
MK: Yes, my both my parents are both Armenian. Um, my father's name is Henry Kachadourian and, and my mother's maiden name is Victoria Kerbeckian.
01:02
JK: And where are they from?
01:06
MK: My dad was born here in Binghamton, New York. And my mom was born in ̶ when she was younger, she grew up in Queens, New York um, and later moved to Philadelphia, at a young age.
01:28
JK: On both sides of your family or their median in both your parents’ side?
01:34
MK: Yes. Both their parents were Armenian as well.
01:41
JK: And where are they from?
01:44
MK: That, um, I have written down, I do not have it off the top of my head.
01:52
JK: Are they from Armenia? Or ̶ are from the United States?
02:02
MK: No, they were born, um, I a portion of what is known today is Turkey and part of it and the other is in Armenia. So as to specific locations I have written down I do not have it with me here.
02:22
JK: And why is the ̶ do you know what year they left Armenia?
02:29
MK: They left during the Turkish massacre. A number of their ̶ they escaped. But a lot of their family members were killed. So they were the ones that were able to escape.
02:44
JK: Do you recall any stories from that?
02:50
MK: Yes, I remember. My great grandmother, um escaped with my grandmother. When my grandmother was a baby, and there was a family that hit my grandmother in the garbage can so the Turks will not be able to find her. And then from my dad's side, my grandfather escaped by swimming, you know, in a river to escape ̶ being killed from the Turks. I remember him telling me those stories.
03:31
JK: From your father from your grandfather telling you
03:35
MK: From my grandfather telling me.
03:38
JK: So he was there, he personally escaped.
03:41
MK: Yes.
03:44
JK: And do you know or remember how they came to America?
03:48
MK: No, I think my grandmother and ̶ get up got this written down. And, you know, as I get older, my memory is not as good as it used to be. But I have got it written down. And I do not have that literature in front of me. But, um, my grandmother on my mom's side, it's my recollection, she came through Cuba, and, um, and my recollection with my grandmother on my father's side. She may have camped through Montreal, Canada,
04:28
JK: And ended up ̶ from Binghamton or other places in the United States.
04:35
MK: She may have wound up in the New England area and met my grandfather who I think was in this area. And so that was how they happened to settled in this area. But I am not ̶ Again, I have got it written down but that is my recollection off the top of my head.
04:55
JK: Did they tell you any other stories about living in Armenia before the genocide?
05:09
MK: You know, just to my great grandmother that all her children were killed except my grandmother. Um, and that's all I could remember, you know, as a child.
05:26
JK: Did they tell you like, before what it was like in Armenia?
05:33
MK: No, I, you know, it is not a subject I think they, you know, it was like it was a tragedy for them. So with most people, they, um, you know, I guess it is like soldiers that go to war, they just, you know, they come back and, you know, they really try to move on with their lives. And, you know, and do not dwell on the past. And, you know, it was a terrible time and a terrible experience, which, you know, they did not talk much about.
06:06
JK: Then, did they ever get returned back to Armenia?
06:10
MK: No. I do not ̶ Yes, I think my grandfather and I um, I cannot recollect you're going to have to talk to other members of my family. I know. My aunts and my aunt and uncle from my father's side, um, went to Armenia recently and I am not sure if they went back around in the mid to late (19)70s and may have taken my grandparents some um, that I do not have first-hand knowledge of this far as my mom's side. I do not think they ever went back, no.
06:59
JK: Okay, so going through your childhood, did you ever go to Armenian language school or learn Armenian or Bible school?
07:09
MK: Um, the church we went to had Sunday school which I attended and did have language school again you know, it is a number of years ago, but Armenian was the first language we spoke before actually before we spoke English my grandparents or great grandparents you know, they spoke Armenian and you know we were taught Armenian and then we were able to communicate with them and Armenian.
07:41
JK: Can you read and write Armenian?
07:43
MK: No, I cannot read and write Armenian but I could speak it and understand it.
07:51
JK: [inaudible]
07:51
MK: Pretty much so yes, you know, I ̶ it is ̶ of course English is my another language, but I could get I know enough to get by.
08:03
JK: And, did you have any siblings growing up?
08:08
MK: Yes, I did have one sister growing up.
08:11
JK: And what is her name? And how old is she?
08:15
MK: Um, her name is Corrine. And, um, I do not think I am at liberty to give her age.
08:24
JK: What's the age difference between you two?
08:31
MK: Um, I think it is exactly eleven months.
08:37
JK: And did she learn Armenian too? Or ̶
08:40
MK: Yes, she, you know, along with me. We both speak and understand it. And however again, we do not write or read. I mean, it is ̶
08:53
JK: And when you were a kid, where did you grow up?
09:00
MK: As a child ̶ they grew up ̶ Originally I was born in Binghamton and stayed in the Binghamton area until I was about maybe three or four and then I attended first kindergarten in Stamford, Connecticut. And then I attended first grade in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And then we move to back to Binghamton and then attended public schools and graduated high school in Binghamton, New York.
09:39
JK: Do you recall the Armenian communities in Connecticut or Philadelphia?
09:46
MK: I do recall Armenian communities in Philadelphia, vaguely but not in Connecticut. I was really too young to remember that.
10:00
JK: Was it bigger than the community in Binghamton today?
10:05
MK: Yes, it was. You know, Philadelphia is a metropolitan area. So of course, they had larger Armenian community and the community was very active in the church. And now and I remember attending church and Easter's, Easter Sunday, everybody would be dressed up. Um, so yeah, I do remember going to church in Philadelphia,
10:33
JK: Did you attend church regularly, as a kid?
10:38
MK: As a child, growing up, I would say yes.
10:44
JK: And when you came back to Binghamton, was there a big Armenian community or was it significantly smaller?
10:54
MK: It was significantly smaller than Philadelphia, but there was an Armenian community. However, as I got older, the, um, the parishioners of the church got older, and eventually many of them passed away and, um and a lot of the younger people moved away. So the church attendance steadily declined. And, um, you know, as a result of the older parishioners passing away and the younger ones moving away,
11:26
JK: And growing up, did you have any Armenian friends over there, mostly non Armenian?
11:36
MK: Um, I had a couple of Armenian friends but mostly non Armenian, you know.
11:43
JK: And the non-Armenians knew about Armenia or anything?
11:48
MK: Yes, they were. Yes. They were very aware of it. And, you know, um, yes, they were.
11:59
JK: So when you attended high school in Binghamton, did they ̶ was there a lot of Armenians in the school or no?
12:08
MK: No, I think there was one or two others, but no, that was it.
12:14
JK: And would you hang out with them and in school or only in church?
12:19
MK: Mostly at church.
12:28
JK: And so, did you ever attend any camps that would relate to the Armenian community? Or was it just Sunday school and church?
12:42
MK: Just Sunday school and church. However, growing up, we did attend, um, you know, the Armenian community in Philadelphia would have throughout the years, New Year's Eve dance either in Philadelphia or Atlantic City. Growing up for you know, either one, we were in junior high score high school, we would attend those dances with my parents.
13:11
JK: And they had a bigger Armenian community. Those ̶
13:15
MK: Yeah, those dances drew or get togethers drew from the communities of North Jersey, and Philadelphia in the New York City area. So they were well attended and often sold out.
13:32
JK: Did they ever have any events like that in the Binghamton area?
13:38
MK: Not really, I mean, there were a few years where they try to have Armenian dances and, you know, initially there was a lot of enthusiasm, but, um, but later on, it was hard to keep it going and getting heavy attendance. So they eventually, you know, canceled those. But growing up after high school and going into college, they had some dances in North Jersey or get togethers in North Jersey, where young professionals or young Armenians would get together, there will be dances or we can get togethers, which I attended a few times.
14:21
JK: And what were some consistent cultural themes within the Armenian community? When you were growing up, what type of food or events ̶
14:37
MK: Um, types of food you know, there were different types of food, ethnic foods. The most common I guess, that the general public is aware of is like pilav or shish kabobs and often look forward to those and, um, and something called lahmacun which is an Armenian type pizza, but instead of cheese and tomato sauce, it would be made with pink something along the lines of ground meat on a flat breath. And also, you know, from a cultural standpoint, you know, we were, I do not know it was in, I do not know if it was instilled in us but I always believe that due to the sacrifices that our grandparents or great grandparents went through, that it was important to keep the Armenian culture alive. And, you know, as part of that, you know, my goal was to marry an Armenian and have Armenian children.
15:41
JK: So it was important for you to marry in Armenian?
15:45
MK: Yes.
15:46
JK: Was that instilled by your parents, or you?
15:50
MK: I think I do not think they ever outright came out and said that, but I just, you know, having experienced or having seen what my net seen, but having been told what my ancestors at sacrifice, I think it was the least I could do to preserve our culture.
16:15
JK: Have you ever traveled to Armenia or Turkey?
16:18
MK: No.
16:19
JK: Would you ever plan to go to Armenia?
16:23
MK: I am not sure I, you know, I have thought about it. No, I, I am not sure. I had have thought about it, but I am not sure.
16:41
JK: Do you think there is differences between the Armenians who came to America and the people that are means stayed in Armenia?
16:51
MK: Oh, um, that I do not have the knowledge to comment on that. I do not, I do not. I mean, America's to me is the greatest country in the world. And we were very fortunate to be living in this country. And but I cannot I do not have enough knowledge or first-hand knowledge to come make, you know, to form an opinion on it.
17:14
JK: And what would you say you identify as your home? And ̶
17:21
MK: I am American first. And I consider America my homeland. And, you know, but I have got Armenian heritage. So ̶
17:33
JK: Do you attend church regularly today?
17:36
MK: I try to, because of our population decrease? You know, the church, we do not have regular services. So we do have visiting priest and, um, and I tried to attend when, when there are services.
17:57
JK: And how would you define Armenia or to be Armenian?
18:04
MK: To be Armenian is to be part of a culture that has suffered in its history, but has made great progress and contributed to the various countries that Armenians have settled in, for example, I will just try to go through some examples that I am aware of is like their Armenians who have settled in France. And one of those is Alain Prost [Alain Marie Pascal Prost], who is a world championship Formula One driver who has won CIF, multiple Formula One championships, and he is from Armenian heritage. And so he was able to go to a different country and succeed. Another one is, if you go down the list like Kirk Kerkorian, former owner, founder MGM Grand casinos, and theaters, and he was very successful in the business world, and he came to the United States and settled you know, and there are athletes as well, you know, former baseball players, tennis players, such as Andre Agassi, who were able to succeed in in the new homelands that they settled in.
19:22
JK: Then, what do you think is important to the Armenian culture, the language the church? What do you think?
19:31
MK: I think it is their faith in the church. You know, I think it is their faith and their beliefs and, you know, and, and I think their beliefs are driving force in the way they live their daily lives. And as a result, I think you will see many results and um, Armenians being driven to succeed. So in both the business world and, and I think they also contribute to the community as well. Another one of those was Alex Manoogian, who's whose family has given back to the Armenian community and he was very successful in the business world. And I think their faith drives them and it's a great contributor is it leads to their success and other facets of their lives.
20:31
JK: Is there anything else you want to add?
20:37
MK: No, I cannot think of anything else. At this point. I think you covered everything pretty well. Okay.
20:43
JK: Thank you.
20:45
MK: You are welcome. Have a good day.
(End of Interview)
Keywords
Armenian; Armenia; Armenians; Turkey; Binghamton; Philadelphia; Family; Armenian community; Armenian Church; Dances; Food; Culture.
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Interview with Mark Kachadourian
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-02-01
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Rudd
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, anti-war activist and he was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to \"fight for imperialism\" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6539,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, and anti-war activist who was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to "fight U.S. imperialism" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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175:20
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Westchester University; Bayard Rustin; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Segregation; Utopia in Four Movements (film); Decolonization; Nonviolence; Black power movement; Howl (poem); Jews; WWII; Germans; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; George Jackson; Students for a Democratic Society. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Westchester University; Bayard Rustin; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Segregation; Utopia in Four Movements (film); Decolonization; Nonviolence; Black power movement; Howl (poem); Jews; WWII; Germans; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; George Jackson; Students for a Democratic Society. </span>
Subject LCSH
Peace movements—United States; Authors; Weather Underground Organization; Political activists--United States; Rudd, Mark--Interviews
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Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Mark Rudd
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 1 February 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
Testing one, two, testing. I found that Mark, before I get with the questions that even the boomer administrators who run universities today have a tendency and a fear of going back to what was.
MR (00:00:18):
Right.
SM (00:00:18):
Because there is a symbol that it is disruption, and anyways.
MR (00:00:28):
One question is not... was not Westchester State at one point a historically black college, or am I confused?
SM (00:00:32):
No-no, just the reverse. Back in the early (19)50s and right into the (19)60s, there were very few African-American students at Westchester University. In fact, it has become a very sensitive issue at programs dealing with Dr. King in the past couple years because more and more African-American students who were at the university during that, that timeframe had to live off campus.
MR (00:00:58):
Right.
SM (00:01:00):
They were not allowed to live in residence halls. And now obviously that is changed a lot, and we have probably one of the largest African American populations in the state system with almost 10 percent of our campus being African American students.
MR (00:01:15):
10 percent?
SM (00:01:17):
10 percent.
MR (00:01:18):
And Westchester... Westchester is a largely African American town, is not it?
SM (00:01:22):
Oh, no. Westchester is mostly a white, conservative, middle to upper class town. It is the 25th richest area in America.
MR (00:01:34):
Well, what is the... There were demonstrations in around (19)63, (19)62, (19)63, and (19)64 in Westchester. Kathy Wilkerson writes about them in her autobiography.
SM (00:01:53):
I have not read her autobiography. I know there were protests at Westchester. Of course, Bayard Rustin is from Westchester, and Bayard was a graduate of Henderson High School. He was a star athlete on the football team, but he was not allowed to even go to the movie theater.
MR (00:02:13):
Right.
SM (00:02:13):
And he had to sit upstairs and he was arrested as a young high school student before he went off to Cheney. And we are talking now the forties and the early (19)50s. And so historically, it has had some major issues. And the most recent issue was the naming of Bayard Rustin High School, which became a national issue because he was going to be named in the third high school. And there was a group of people that wanted to prevent him because first off, he was a former communist. Secondly, even though they did not say it was because he was gay. And there are a lot of reasons, and I was involved with about 50 or 60 other people and trying to prevent this name change from going back to some other name. And so that the community itself, the university is much more progressive than obviously the community. In some sense, the community, even though it has become more liberal in some of its administrators, I mean politicians, it is still got a long way to go in terms of social issues.
MR (00:03:24):
Right. What is the historic black college? Is it Lincoln?
SM (00:03:28):
Oh, no, the historic black college, there is two of them. Lincoln is the private school, and that is only about 25 miles from Westchester University and then Cheney University.
MR (00:03:39):
Oh, Cheney.
SM (00:03:40):
And that is this campus of a little over 3000, and it has been struggling to survive. It has had a lot of problems financially with weak administrators and fewer students coming, but they have just hired a president the past two years. It is keeping it going. They have been hiring some pretty good administrators, and it will always be there because it is one of the historic schools.
MR (00:04:05):
Well, I hope so. It is coming up February 1st. Is today February 1st?
SM (00:04:11):
Yes, it is today.
MR (00:04:12):
This is a good place to start. February 1st, 50 years ago, 1960 was the day that black students from the historic black college in Greensboro, North Carolina sat in at the Woolworths lunch counter. And that was the beginning of an almost spontaneous uprising of black students from historic black colleges, from all black colleges in the South. Their role in the civil rights movement often does not get acknowledged much, or at least it does. People know about it, who know about the history, but most people who do not know about the history do not know much about the Civil Rights Movement, how it was organized or how it happened, and they think it was all Martin Luther King's dream.
SM (00:05:09):
It is interesting in the interviews that I have had so far, when we talk about the (19)50s, those Civil Rights events, and then very early in the early (19)60s, (19)60s and 61, how much was hidden? So people that people did not know, and so everything looked like things were okay in the (19)50s, but in reality they were terrible.
MR (00:05:32):
Right. It was not the golden era.
SM (00:05:34):
Mark, what-
MR (00:05:35):
My wife was watching Mad Men and freaking out over the, remembering the position of women at that time.
SM (00:05:42):
Oh, yeah. Well, definitely. You were young. Mark, when did you first recognize or know what was going on? What happened February 1st? I-
MR (00:05:54):
Think it was the demonstrations and the protest and civil disobedience of black people in the South. I must have been on February 1st, 1960. I was 12 years old, and I looked at... Saw these images of young people sitting in and it just stopped me. I had to pay attention.
SM (00:06:24):
So you were sensitive very early on?
MR (00:06:27):
Well, not hypersensitive, considering that I did not know any black people and personally, I lived in an all-white suburb of Newark, New Jersey and New York City. And I would not call myself hypersensitive. I still went about my 12-year-old things, but I always was the kind of person who paid attention to current events. I loved current events.
SM (00:07:04):
Well-
MR (00:07:05):
I was the kind of kid who I always read magazines and newspapers, and there was something... I think it was growing up in the shadow of World War II. Current events.
SM (00:07:20):
Were you one of those individuals that read The Weekly Reader that had all the political news for elementary school kids?
MR (00:07:26):
My parents had Time and Life. That, I assume. I would read the newspaper. I read the New York Times every day in high school, but we could get it at Study Hall and I get it for free and something. I read... No, my Weekly Reader when I was a little kid, I suppose.
SM (00:07:55):
I kept all mine. I still have them in stacks.
MR (00:07:58):
Oh, so you were that kind of person also?
SM (00:07:59):
Yes. And in fact, I, they are treasures to me because when John Kennedy was running for president and all those things. I have them in my Weekly Readers. Great pictures. Most people threw them out. I kept them.
MR (00:08:13):
How old are you?
SM (00:08:14):
Oh, I am 62.
MR (00:08:16):
Oh, we are the same age.
SM (00:08:17):
Yep. (19)47. We are in (19)47. December 27th of (19)47.
MR (00:08:24):
Well, I am six months older then.
SM (00:08:27):
Well, we are in that same group. I was at Binghamton when you were at Columbia. I knew all about what you were doing when I was a student there. I want to ask you-
MR (00:08:36):
I did not catch that you were at Binghamton?
SM (00:08:39):
Yes. I went Binghamton University.
MR (00:08:40):
Right-right-right.
SM (00:08:41):
It was Harper College. In fact, last week I interviewed Richie Havens and I asked Richie a question. I said, Richie, "Do you remember your first college concert?" And he said, "Yes." And then I said, "Well, I remember you when you came to my school. It was Harper College, the Arts and Science School at Binghamton." And he said, "That is unbelievable, because that was my first concert." That was 1967.
MR (00:09:07):
That is wonderful. Well, I have a dear friend who is the same age as us who went to Harper. I would not know her... Oh, it is Marsh. Her name is Linda Marsh.
SM (00:09:18):
Linda Marsh.
MR (00:09:19):
She was from Western New York State and she went to Harper.
SM (00:09:25):
Yeah. Well, it is a great school.
MR (00:09:26):
And then later they, several key Columbia people who had reported us. Immanuel Wallerstein.
SM (00:09:31):
Oh yes.
MR (00:09:36):
Terry Hopkins. Several other people jumped over to Harper.
SM (00:09:45):
Yeah. Well, it is a great school. One of my former professors, Dr. Kadish is still there. All the rest of them have either retired or died.
MR (00:09:52):
I just met a guy named Melvyn Dubofsky, labor historian, who did his whole career there. Do you know him?
SM (00:09:59):
That name rings a bell.
MR (00:10:01):
Yep. Yeah. I just met him the other day.
SM (00:10:05):
I have a question. This is a very important year coming up. This is the 40th anniversary of the Remembrance of the Tragedy at Kent State.
MR (00:10:12):
Yes.
SM (00:10:13):
And I know that if Allison Krause's sister and Alan Canfora are organizing the Remembrance event, hoping lots of people come back and they got these tapes for... They found out the real truth about who gave the order to shoot. So there is a lot of things that are going to take place at this year's event. But in your book, I think I have told you, your book is superb, right? I have underlined it. I have read it. I was rereading my underline. So I am basing my questions on a lot of the things you have written about for more explanation. You talk about Kent State in your book. How about-about had one of the strongest SDS groups.
MR (00:10:52):
Yes.
SM (00:10:52):
Even though when the tragedy at Kent State happened, people were saying, "Kent State of all places?"
MR (00:11:00):
Yes.
SM (00:11:00):
What was it about Kent State University that was different than the others with respect to SDS and its activism?
MR (00:11:06):
Well, I do not know if I can fully answer that. See oftentimes I use Kent State as an example of a state school that was in revolt. So we tried to portray it as not different, but I actually think it was some kind of conjunction of its late location in a demographic. It mostly took the children of the upper working class and the lower middle class from northeastern Ohio. Akron was the biggest city and that was the tire maker. That was-
SM (00:12:04):
Yes.
MR (00:12:04):
-the place where tires were made. And so you had this whole industrial union kind of an ethos. Then you had Jewish communists, Jewish kids of Communists and social backgrounds from Cleveland. Quite a few there. In fact, that the chapter had a... I think one wrote about this, but one of the oddest aspects of the shooting was that three out of four of the victims, the people who died rather, were Jewish on a campus that was only three or 4 percent Jewish.
SM (00:12:58):
Yes.
MR (00:12:58):
And in the chapter, the SKS chapter, it was not a majority Jewish, but it had a few of the leaders were Jewish. So you had this kind of mix that I always thought the people there were very serious. They did not have a lot of money. And even at Columbia, the chapter was not made up of really wealthy people, but they were not like elitist kids, but they were very serious. On the other hand, I have been back several times, twice actually in the last decade, and I have noticed that it is a very cold place, meaning that only a minority wants to acknowledge that the crimes of the shootings-
SM (00:13:54):
Yeah.
MR (00:14:00):
-and a lot of people still to this day say that the victims deserved it.
SM (00:14:07):
Yeah. When you just-
MR (00:14:09):
Not sure I answered your question.
SM (00:14:12):
Yeah, it does. I think the whole thing, this tape, you are, are you aware of the tape that is going to be played?
MR (00:14:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I am in touch with Allen.
SM (00:14:19):
Yeah. Well, I tell you, it is going... Are you going to be able to come back?
MR (00:14:24):
I do not know. I have not figured it out yet.
SM (00:14:27):
I would love to see you. I would love to meet you because-
MR (00:14:29):
Are you there going to be there?
SM (00:14:30):
Yeah, I am going to be there. I have been there the three of the last five years. Because I feel it is important. I took students at a high university back in the fourth remembrance year when Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden were there, and Julian Bond and Holly Near. And in those days, there was a more... We want to make this an educational experiences for all the college students in Ohio. So I worked at Ohio University, and I brought students back, and we learned the importance of communication. And when you do not communicate, this is what happens. And that is been lost. But I thank the Lord we had the Allens and the [inaudible] and Allison Cross's sister, working to make this continue.
MR (00:15:20):
One year... When was that? I think it was (19)95. They asked me to, if I would play the role of one of the four in the march and the role of Allison Krause and her mother was there, and we walked together and I held the first half hour of the vigil. That is done all night.
SM (00:15:52):
Yes.
MR (00:15:52):
I stood with flowers that they gave me playing the role of Allison Krause for the first half hour. And I put them down on, this was on the spot where she was killed. I put them down on the ground. Then the next morning around noon, the parking lot was reopened again. And I went to that spot, and all the flowers had been run over by cars.
SM (00:16:18):
Oh, geez.
MR (00:16:18):
It is a cold place.
SM (00:16:23):
Yeah. Last year I was at Jeff Miller's spot, and what you do, you have a half hour shifts and it goes all throughout the night.
MR (00:16:33):
Yeah.
SM (00:16:34):
And I was there for a one to 1:30 for Jeff. It was very kind of chilly too. But I was at that spot this year, you know, hold the candle.
MR (00:16:43):
Yeah.
SM (00:16:44):
Yep. And then of course, the march every year, the candlelight march where you walk around the campus and everything with the candle lights.
MR (00:16:52):
It is a good thing.
SM (00:16:54):
Yeah. I think it is important as a member of the more radical segment of the Vietnam generation, and again, I am talking more about the activists now or the organizers... I know how important Che Guevara and Mao Zedong as Sunni Binghamton, people were walking around with those red Mao Zedong, little booklets and everything. They were very popular. But what was it about she Che Guevara and Mao Zedong that really turned on the anti-war group?
MR (00:17:25):
That was the idea of the heroism of liberation. And we live in a country where the politicians are anal and are corrupt and are [inaudible] mouthed, and they are an embarrassment. So is not it wonderful to have some notion that somewhere in the world people are heroic and altruistic?
SM (00:18:01):
Well, some of some people that I have talked to in my interviews, and again, as I do more and more interviews, I get more and more different responses. And then I use some of those responses in my upcoming interviews. One of, not so much about Che Guevara, but when they talk about Mao Zedong, they call him a murderer. And because of the cultural revolution and all the millions that he killed, and so they have a tendency to attack the activists of the (19)60s as "Why would they be linked to a murder?"
MR (00:18:30):
Well, see, the idea of revolution, especially armed revolution, is that it is a smaller amount of violence than the great amount of violence the system in China, they had brutalism and they had up until the 20th century and terrible poverty and degradation, and this is true still in a lot of parts world, including China. But the idea that you could create an aesthetic and that revolutionary violence to do it is a great heroic. We thought we were living through a heroic moment in history. And violence, if you have to do violence, is like a war. It was a war for liberation. Obviously... It was incredibly utopian to think that a whole society could be remade along, egalitarian and [inaudible]. And myself, I will probably not make that mistake again. But at the time, we were incredibly idealistic. I thought that the world could be remade. Sam Green, the filmmaker who made the Weather Underground movie made now has a new movie called Utopia and Foreign Movement. And it is about, four examples of utopianism of better or worse. And his view is that there is no more utopianism. And that is a problem too.
SM (00:20:38):
Well, that was one of my questions coming up is when you use smaller amounts of violence as opposed to the larger amounts of violence, do not you think that backfires? Dr. King he always professed non-violent approach and I think you mentioned in your book that was more of a gradualist approach, and-
MR (00:21:02):
But yeah, I have come around to it to a nonviolent strategy too, of advocating a nonviolent strategy in all chains. Because I do recognize the inherent problems with violence, demonizing the enemy, and creating the... You still there?
SM (00:21:26):
Yep. I am here.
MR (00:21:27):
And creating the cycle of revenge, et cetera. So I have come to that. But no, there were in the (19)60s, remember that was the era. This is one of the most difficult things to convey to young people. That was the era of decolonization in the world. And many of the decolonization struggles were violent. Now in India was not violent. They had a great leader with a great philosophy, but the results did not look so good at the time. China, which had a violent revolution, seemed to be made making much greater progress than India, which was still a class society in the (19)60s, and still is. Although it does have the largest middle class in the world, which I guess improves the life of 150 million people, it has still got about a billion people who are in terrible poverty. So again, we were utopians. We thought that China was a better model than India. We thought that Cuba was making very great progress and still Cuba is a great model in some ways. I mean, if one asks the following question, "Where would you rather be at the bottom of society in Cuba or in one of the American neo colony, the Central America. Who has a greater opportunity for life, a Cuban [inaudible] or a Honduras [inaudible]?"
SM (00:23:08):
So what was what is really amazing is when you study the history of the (19)60s and (19)70s, and you look at Dr. King and study the comparisons between him and Thurgood Marshall, Dr. King's nonviolent approach was a step beyond Thurgood Marshall's gradualist approach and getting laws passed. And then when Stokely challenges Martin Luther King telling him that your time has passed, or Malcolm X in a debate with Bayard Russin tells him the same thing that your time has passed. I am not sure if Stokely really realized that only a couple years before in America, nonviolent protests was pretty radical.
MR (00:23:50):
Yes. Yes.
SM (00:23:50):
Compared to the Thurgood Marshall trying to get laws passed.
MR (00:23:53):
Good thing. The Black power movement was saw itself as part of the global liberation movement. Personally, I think I was a supporter of black power. It was a challenge as a white person. It was a challenge to the whole white movement, how we would respond to the notion of black liberation, black autonomy. Now of course, I see it as a terrible black power, as a defeat for the black freedom, but that is in retrospect.
SM (00:24:25):
Yes.
MR (00:24:25):
Time we were caught up in the notion of global liberation.
SM (00:24:31):
One of the other things that, and I caught a lot of things in your book that I was rereading it, prepping for the interview, is we had Tom Hayden on our campus about seven years ago, and Tom came to speak as part of our activist days, and we had a dinner prior to the program. And in that dinner, he wanted to know if the student's government association had power. And then they said yes, and they gave them their definition of power. And Tom shakes his head, and that is not power. And yet, and then he went on and gave a lecture of the difference between power and empowerment. And he was basically saying, "You are not empowered." And you state in your book that the protest movement, Columbia, was not about student power empowerment, but it was about fighting the American imperialism abroad in Vietnam and racism and the economic conditions of blacks at home in America. Is there any conflict here? Tom says you students need to feel empowered, but you were not after empowerment.
MR (00:25:39):
No. Well, I am not quite sure. I mean, I would not necessarily disagree with Tom. I mean, what is empowerment? But I mean, when one confronts the problems of the world, one becomes empowered. And conversely, if you are given, I do not know, are given or somehow get power within an institution, does that even confront the bigger problem? I do not know. I cannot answer that. It is complicated for my little head.
SM (00:26:22):
Well, one of the questions I was going to, from the questions I gave you over email about the importance of the beat, and I did not know that Richie Havens was a beat.
MR (00:26:29):
Yeah. Very important. Mean, they were true cultural rebels. And I was aware of them from a very early time in my life. I would say 13, 14, 13, 14. They were cool.
SM (00:26:48):
Yeah. Well, I was looking at the play for the poem, Howl, which was in the 1950s that was banned in many schools. And of course, the poem expresses the anxieties and the ideals of a generation alienated from mainstream society. But some of the quotes, "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving, hysterical, naked, dragging themselves through the Negro streets, had dawned looking for an angry fix. Angle headed, hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night." Very prophetic words. And obviously they had an impact, and they were a precursor to what I consider the activism of the (19)60s.
MR (00:27:37):
I think so. I believe so. For me, they were. You know? I lived in the suburbs, but I knew that there was something wrong about the suburbs that they had. They had forgotten a lot of light. Newark emptied out to create the suburb that I lived in, and my family even moved from Newark. But there is something left behind there. A lot of people left behind there. It was literally white flight that when he talks about Negro streets, that those are the streets that my family fled.
SM (00:28:19):
One of the things that I think is just fantastic in your book is, and again, I keep going back to your book, it is the scene where one of the people you looked up to at Columbia, one of the older students, was it Dave Gilbert or one of them, talked about what happened in Germany and comparing it to America. And how we cannot let that happen again. We cannot let what happened that happen again to the Vietnamese people, what happened to the Jews in Germany and in Europe.
MR (00:28:49):
Well, I noticed that I called the first chapter "The Good Germany."
SM (00:28:52):
Yes. That Could you, because again, this is a different venue. People may not have read your book, but could you talk a little bit about that experience and your feelings on this, and that is really a lot about who you are and what you became.
MR (00:29:07):
Yeah. I was a Jewish kid growing up. I was born two years after the end of World War II growing up, thinking about it, aware of the Holocaust. My father had been in World War II. He missed the fighting in the Philippines by a few months. But I saw the World War II was the great divide, the great heroic good war, and we beat the Nazis. And so the question then was, who were these Nazis? What were they up to? And I guess that reality, the reality of World War II was so bloom, so large that I felt I had attention. And one of the questions about World War II-
MR (00:30:03):
...attention. And one of the questions about World War II was where were the German people? Questions still exist. Just last night I read an article in the current New Yorker about Dresden, the rebuilding of Dresden, and the consciousness of the people of Dresden. They see themselves as victims of American air power, firebombing, total destruction. And yet they know nothing about their own country's participation in the genocide. It was not talked about. It is now 60 some years later, and the question of the of role of the German people in the rise of Nazism is still on the table. So at that time there was a phrase called "Good German", meaning somebody who willfully ignored or denied or seen what was happening. Now the phrase the "Good German" has lost its metaphorical power. Have you tried it on some young people lately?
SM (00:31:24):
Well, I left the university in March, but...
MR (00:31:28):
Try it sometime and you will find that by and large people have no idea what "Good German" means. When we were growing up, everyone knew what an ironic metaphor.
SM (00:31:40):
Right.
MR (00:31:41):
And so we always asked where were the Germans, the good Germans? Where were the German people? Same when I found out about the crimes of this country, I did not want to be a "Good German." Quite simple.
SM (00:31:57):
That is real important for young people. And actually I am a firm believer that people evolve over time. So I think older people can change too. I am one of those people who believes that. But I think this feeling that you really bring out in the book also, the we did not know mentality of silence and denial and ignorance. And I think sometimes ignorance on purpose. And you saw it in Vietnam with the terrible atrocities, and certainly we know them now that what happened. And we continue as Americans to forget that it is not only the soldiers that we are losing, American soldiers, but it is the citizenry of the nation that we are in that we are killing. And it continues today.
MR (00:32:38):
Absolutely. There is a memorial to 50,000 American dead in Vietnam. But there is no memorial to the millions of Vietnamese that we killed. And it is the same way now in Iraq and Afghanistan. If they are not Americans, they do not count. But it comes down to a very mundane level. Americans go and shop at Walmart and they see all this stuff that is pretty damn cheap. And they do not ask the question, "Why is this stuff so cheap? Who's making it? How much are they being paid? What is the environmental cost? What is the cost of the family? What is the cost in social dislocation in China?" That is a willful...
SM (00:33:36):
You talk about Malcolm X a little bit in the book in several sections, and one of the areas is when Malcolm saw the connection between the people's struggles in Vietnam and the Far East and what was happening in America with African Americans and people of color. And you felt that was why he had to be killed. When you look at some of the other individuals, not only of Malcolm, but Dr. King, Fred Hampton, even George Jackson, who was really a powerful speaker within the prison community, and even to some sense... I know you do not like a lot of the liberals and Bobby Kennedy, but he kind of changed in his last two years of his life. Do you see a connection that they all had to really go because of their stands on things?
MR (00:34:26):
Obviously in retrospect, it is hard to miss those connections. I might add too, that anytime a black person advocates armed action, they are going to be a [inaudible], they are going to be killed or jailed.
SM (00:34:43):
Getting back to...
MR (00:34:49):
Malcolm X's slogan was by any means necessary. And that eventually he had to be killed. That the government killed dozens of Black Panthers because they were advocating revolution. Blacks with guns. It was very scary.
SM (00:35:07):
Certainly Dr. King went against the Vietnam War and some people thought that was his death sentence.
MR (00:35:13):
Yeah-yeah, exactly. One year to the day, one year before his murder, he came out publicly, now. Absolutely.
SM (00:35:24):
I do not know if you were ever a Bertrand Russell fan. But I am a big Bertrand Russell fan because I think a lot of people from our generation read him as a good role model as an older person. And he lived a life that really stood for something. In the beginning of his biography, and this was brought up by one of my interviews when I asked the person, "What would you like your legacy to be once you are gone?" And this is a very well-known activist just like you from the (19)60s. And he said, "Well, I just want you to read the first paragraph in Bertram Russell's book because that is what I want to be remembered for."
MR (00:36:06):
What is that?
SM (00:36:07):
And here it is. He starts it out with three passions, simple, but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life, the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and the unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind. These passions like great winds have blown me hither and thither in a wayward course over a deep ocean of anguish, reaching to the very verge of the spare.
MR (00:36:34):
That is good writing.
SM (00:36:37):
And that is Bertrand Russell. And now I have been reading... Actually it is his autobiography. It was written in three parts. But this is the part from the time 1872 to 1914. And we all know right up to the time he died, he was the same guy he was when he was a young guy. Your thoughts on those three, because you are dealing with love, you are dealing with knowledge...
MR (00:37:05):
Knowledge and justice. Well, the love part is hard. One tries for love. I would not have defined it as my goal because it either comes or does not. I have been lucky in my life. I have been surrounded by love. But I grew up in a family in which there was much love. And so I do not see it as abnormal. I see it as the human condition or as an inspirable human condition. And everybody could go for it. So I am not different from anyone else. But I once heard Ramdas, Richard Albert, say that he learned from his guru in India, that the goal of life, love everybody and always tell the truth. And so I bring it down to two and I would not separate them because what is justice? So I think knowledge and justice are pretty good. Love everybody and always tell the truth.
SM (00:38:33):
Yeah.
MR (00:38:34):
Sometimes you have to dig find the truth though.
SM (00:38:36):
Yeah. When you responded to the question of the overall impact on the boomer generation, you were very good in letting me know. And others have said the same thing, "You cannot generalize 78 million Americans." But I love the way you divided it. The comments that you made was, "We helped the Black Freedom Movement. We helped them in the war in Vietnam, and we fought for the equality of gays, women, disabled, and fighting nuclear power." Do you see any negatives? And the reason why I bring this up is the drug culture, women being treated as objects and certainly violence, which not necessarily the violence that we always talk about with SDS. I am talking about what we saw in Watts and what we saw in the cities during that time. Cities going up exploding.
MR (00:39:32):
Well, yeah. I think that every deviation from non-violent struggle has been negative. And that would include spontaneous nihilistic uprising and saying it would also include calls for arm struggle. In retrospect, every deviation that I made away from non-violent struggle and democracy, too, was a terrible negative and had terrible results. So that is one big negative. Human condition, though has plenty of negatives, discrimination, and exploitation. And I probably participate. I write about this, the privilege that I have as a male within the movement led me to exploit women. But I think all that is inevitable and it will continue. But the big lesson that I take is the necessity to hold the nonviolent gratitude. Howard Zinn died last week.
SM (00:40:59):
Yes, I know.
MR (00:41:00):
And I remember back in 2000... I guess Susan Danburger of NPR asked him, she asked a lot of smart people on the radio, "What is the contribution of 20th century to the 21st?" And I remember him saying the idea of non-violent political action. That really got me. He chose one thing. And that was the idea of nonviolence. And so I reduced it down to one thing, which encompasses, incidentally, love too. Because in nonviolence you cannot dehumanize your enemy to the point where it is okay to kill him.
SM (00:41:59):
Mark, I do not know if you saw, but on Democracy Now, they had an excerpt from Howard's last speech at Boston University.
MR (00:42:10):
Oh no, I did not hear it.
SM (00:42:12):
Yeah. And I have got to get a transcript of it because he passed away within two months. But basically what he was saying... Let me turn my tape here over. He was talking to a room full of college students at Boston University, and he said, " I was a pilot in World War II and I dropped bombs on people and I killed people. I was told to do so. I did not know those bombs had chemicals in them that would last long after the war ended. But when the war ended, I got a letter in the mail." And the letter in the mail came thanking him for his service. And all World War II veterans got this letter from one of the secretaries in the government. And basically it said, "Thanks for helping us to create a better world." Because they had defeated Nazism and, of course, the Japanese. And what is interesting... Then he went on for the next 10 minutes at unbelievable words about making the world better. Then he went on to talk about all the killing that has taken place in the world since World War II. He talked about Vietnam. He talked about Iraq, Afghanistan, and he talked about all the other conflicts and wars and weaponry and so forth. So he was basically wanting young people to reflect in a lot of different ways. But it was the way that only he could say it because he is very good with the words. So I just want to mention that.
MR (00:43:52):
Oh, yeah.
SM (00:43:53):
Because I want to get a transcript.
MR (00:43:59):
Howard's whole career has a lot of integrity and he uses his personal experience. He used his personal experience really well, and he held to his principles. He is a great model.
SM (00:44:15):
You had also made a comment, and I thought that was pretty good though, where you said "The impact of boomers on succeeding generation is they hate us. We have all the good jobs and we have all the good music and sex." What is interesting, we had a couple of panels at our school when I was there between the boomer generation and Generation X students. Actually, we filled over 500 in the room for both programs. And two things came out of those programs when Generation Xers were talking about boomers. Number one, they did not like them. Just like you say, "They hate us." They are tired of hearing about what was the nostalgia.
MR (00:44:57):
Are you writing a book about boomers?
SM (00:45:01):
And then it... Huh?
MR (00:45:03):
Get off it already?
SM (00:45:03):
Huh?
MR (00:45:05):
Get off it already.
SM (00:45:07):
Yeah. And then the second part was, "I wish I had lived then. I wish I had the causes that they had. I wish I had something to fight for."
MR (00:45:19):
Right. Right.
SM (00:45:20):
There was nothing in between.
MR (00:45:22):
No, not only that, but that they do not see the causes now. And that is understandable too, why they do not see the causes now. Because I did not see the causes now until I blundered into a mass movement. And that mass movements make things easy. You are surrounded by people who think like you and you have a critical math. Now it is a lot harder. You have to be out there on the fringe.
SM (00:45:55):
That is important because we all know when a college student goes off to their first year of school that peers are the most important influence, even more than faculty members on them.
MR (00:46:06):
Right.
SM (00:46:07):
And obviously that was true with you.
MR (00:46:09):
It was easy for me, comparatively speaking. To join the movement was easy because the movement was big and growing.
SM (00:46:19):
Could you describe two terms that I think are very important in your book? And that is functional rationality and substantial rationality. That really got me, because McNamara fit the first one so perfectly.
MR (00:46:37):
Like you figure out your goal and then that is your goal and McNamara's functional rationality. But the deeper rationality involves an evaluation of both the means and the goals. Do the ends justify the means? Do the ends justify the means? No-no.
SM (00:47:10):
Well, I had mentioned three slogans to you in my email and one was the Peter Max, and you had mentioned that you did not think...
MR (00:47:22):
But that was not for me. That was for a lot of others.
SM (00:47:25):
Yeah.
MR (00:47:26):
I thought that one was some... That is all right.
SM (00:47:28):
Would you say, and I just added one, would you say "Truth to Power" may be another one that is very important? And are there other slogans that you think more define the...
MR (00:47:37):
"Truth to power" is a pretty good one. "Truth to Power" was not that [inaudible] slogan.
SM (00:47:45):
Well, I know Dr. King used it.
MR (00:47:47):
Yeah-yeah. No, that is great. Let us see. Logan. Logan. Well, "By any means as necessary" was the slogan. But it is not one that I hold to now.
SM (00:48:02):
Right.
MR (00:48:14):
We powered to the people of Logan. All the SDS cards up until the end... The slogan of SDS was "Let the people decide." And that was consistent with our ideology of participatory democracy. And when the Weathermen took over, we still let that one go and we substituted the Panther slogan "Power to the People." "Power to the People" sounds good, but it is a bit simplistic cause people think all kinds of things and there is all kinds of people. But people are not unitary, that is for sure.
SM (00:49:07):
The media oftentimes, and you brought up even your comment to me, the media has made you think this way and make students think this way. But you also state in your book that many of your peers have gone on to be very successful in life. Doctors, lawyers, heads of companies and teachers. You name it. And oftentimes the media likes to portray the generation or as one that gave up on their beliefs and their ideals and really have not contributed at all to America. Your thoughts on that?
MR (00:49:40):
No. When I wrote that... I think you are quoting from the epilogue of the book. And in that I am actually talking about the people who came back for the 40th reunion of the Columbia strike. And many of them were not successful. But that does not mean that they have lost their ideals or their motive or motivation. Not at all.
SM (00:50:05):
Yeah. Cause I think...
MR (00:50:05):
Remember Columbia was a middle class place or an upper middle class place or a ruling class place. And the idea of it was that you go there and then you take your place at the top of society. That is still the idea. And so it is very hard to get away from class privilege.
SM (00:50:25):
Well...
MR (00:50:25):
Very difficult.
SM (00:50:28):
When I was reading your book, and then of course even knowing about you even before your book came out, that being underground must have been very difficult for you. Because you have even said... I have seen some interviews when you were on CSPAN, and that you are a person of ideas. You want to be doing something, you want to be helping people. But hiding, you cannot do anything.
MR (00:50:51):
Right. I think that I recognized that very shortly after I went under. I recognized that on May 4th, 1970, about a month after I described sitting on a park bench in Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. But I think that it is interesting that even though I ostensibly gave up all my privilege, my class, I still actually retained quite a bit, even in the underground, even when I was a nobody. I got a job at a factory in the Kensington and Allegheny, K and A neighborhood. And in that factory, I started at the bottom as the laborer. And it was not long before I was promoted to be in charge of a warehouse. Why? Because I had communications, so. That the black guy who started on the same day with me, did not have. He did not speak English the same way I did. He could not communicate with the Jewish manager. I could read. He could not.
SM (00:52:11):
You had to use a fake name though, did not you then?
MR (00:52:15):
Oh, yeah. I did not put down that I had gone to Columbia University. I made up some high school somewhere and said that I had not graduated and that was it.
SM (00:52:25):
When did you know you had to go from one place to another because you went different parts of the country?
MR (00:52:34):
We always wanted to stay a couple of jumps ahead of the FBI. So if there was a security breach of any sort, we would [inaudible] a car or somebody ratting. That was the word. Okay. Help us rat it on me being in Santa Fe. Then I could not be just one step ahead. Had to be two steps ahead. So that necessitated moving. So whenever there was a serious security breach, then we would move. And the security breach would not necessarily be about where we were. But it could have even been the previous place.
SM (00:53:25):
This is really...
MR (00:53:27):
Because you do not want to live on the edge. You do not want to live believing that at any moment the FBI could come knocking on your door.
SM (00:53:36):
Do you feel you are still being watched even though you have...
MR (00:53:38):
Nah.
SM (00:53:38):
They are not watching anymore?
MR (00:53:43):
How many million people do they have to watch?
SM (00:53:44):
Yeah.
MR (00:53:45):
Well, nah. That is just paranoid. You cannot live paranoid. That is the main thing.
SM (00:53:56):
Well, I think your life is an example though of what Dr. King always said. And even though people might say, "Well, you cannot compare Mark Rudd to Dr. King." But Dr. King always said that there is a price one pays for one's beliefs.
MR (00:54:09):
Not sure I played the price. I never missed out on a [inaudible] in my life. I never missed out on an opportunity. Had Easter in a public school. I have not paid any particular price.
SM (00:54:29):
One of the questions that I asked again is the question of well, healing. And you responded "Well, I would not sit down with George Bush." And mainly what I was referring to in that question about a problem of healing was I wanted to explain it more to you on the phone. I had taken students to Washington DC to meet Senator Muskey. And the students came up with the questions because they were curious about the 1968 convention. And they thought he was going to answer questions about possible second civil war, tearing the nation apart and everything. And so they came up with a question on healing. And I think what I sent to you was misinformation. I was really referring to the 15 percent of those who were in the anti-war movement, who were against the Vietnam War and the Vietnam Veterans themselves. And that is who I am talking about just between those two groups.
MR (00:55:29):
I never accepted the division description of my generation that the vets thought one thing and the anti-war people thought another. I never accepted that. For one thing, the vets were incredibly anti-war because so many vets were drafted. And also because the anti-war movement itself was so powerful that the idea of being against the war had gone into the military. So you find vets are just as split as the general population. My best friend is a marine vet, and he and I have much more in common than guys from his old unit that he occasionally sees. Because some of them have not gotten wise to the ways in which they were used. So I do not accept that generational division argument at all.
SM (00:56:43):
I think I sense this only because I go to the Vietnam Memorial on Memorial Day and Veterans Day every year. I have done it for 14 years. And I see the slogans and the dislike for Jane Fonda and when Bill Clinton came to the wall and how they were booing him. And even though it is supposed to be a non-political entity, there is still a lot of politics around there. You can sense...
MR (00:57:07):
That is the faction. Personally, I have only gotten that a few times in my life from this. And I have been in touch with hundreds of vets. I taught Vietnam vets. And for the most part I feel accepted by the vets as a veteran of the same Goddam war.
SM (00:57:32):
Good point.
MR (00:57:38):
Maybe I am different. But I would say that of my encounters with vets, maybe one or 2 percent have been hostel. There is a fraction of people who wanted to have everything that they were involved in, all their pain and suffering and loss justified. And that is understandable. Then you have got people who I would say, for the most part, vets are very cornered about the whole thing. And Gil put it, in a way, they murdered a lot of people. Those people did not ask them to come to Vietnam. They did not ask to be murdered. Somebody killed three to 5 million people. So somebody's got to feel bad about that.
SM (00:58:26):
I think one of the things that you bring up here... When I go to the wall, I look at the wall and I see not only Vietnam Veterans, I think of the 15 percent who protested the war, who were so sincere and genuine in their anti-war protest that I can see what you are talking about, Mark, about the links between Vietnam vets and those who opposed the war. Oftentimes it is those who did not give a darn about the war. And those are the ones that sometimes vet has had more problems with.
MR (00:59:01):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Also, there is a lot more to be said on the question of the vets. My general view of the vets is somebody murdered three to 5 million people and that the vets were forced into that position have a hard time dealing with it, very difficult time dealing with it. They are reconciling their own behavior. So sometimes they get angry and they say, "Oh, well it is your fault." And other times they get angry at themselves. They drink and they wind up on the streets or they beat their wives or whatever.
SM (00:59:48):
When you were probably doing your teaching in New Mexico and were back in the system again and you saw President Reagan come into power in 1980, 81 and in his opening speech, and I have the quotes. But he said a...
SM (01:00:03):
And in his opening speech, and I have the quotes, but he said, "America is back."
MR (01:00:07):
What? Is back? Yeah.
SM (01:00:08):
Yeah. He said, "America is back. The military is going to-
MR (01:00:11):
Reagan was a horrible disappointment to me. And it was worse when he was reelected in (19)84 and I realized that he was going to be around for a long time. And remember in (19)80, when he was elected, I was barely aware of the war in Central America. But by (19)84 when he was reelected, I had become aware of the murder that our country was perpetrating in Central America.
SM (01:00:41):
And then of course, George Bush Sr., George H.W. Bush said that the Vietnam syndrome is over, when he became President.
MR (01:00:49):
Right, right. And in a way, he was right, because maybe he was a little premature in (19)91, but by 2003, the Vietnam syndrome was definitely over.
SM (01:01:03):
Yeah. You even bring up Vietnam on a university campus, even the word Vietnam, it just rings all kinds of "Uh-oh. Here we go again." I-
MR (01:01:13):
Yeah. Right. Well, I was talking to somebody, [inaudible], and said, "People do not know when Vietnam was. It could have been before World War II.
SM (01:01:26):
These are just quick-
MR (01:01:27):
And Vietnam is 45 years ago. And when you think of when we were growing up, 40 or 45 years ago before that was World War I.
SM (01:01:36):
Yes.
MR (01:01:36):
Meaning that it is in the dark ages.
SM (01:01:42):
Yeah. In fact, I have got the book Woodstock Census that came out in (19)79. I do not know if you have ever heard of that book.
MR (01:01:47):
No.
SM (01:01:48):
Well, I am reading it right now, because one of the authors is a big, well-known person not far from where you live. And I want to get ahold of him, because he co-wrote the book in (19)79. And they were basically saying in (19)79 that people are looking at the Vietnam War like we looked at World War II.
MR (01:02:08):
Right.
SM (01:02:08):
And that was 1979. These are just really quick ... I know you do not like generalities, but just a quick response here-
MR (01:02:17):
But tell me, before you get onto that, who wrote that book?
SM (01:02:20):
Oh, hold on. Can you hold on one second? I will go get it. Hold on.
MR (01:02:23):
Okay.
SM (01:02:24):
Yep. Okay. Are you still there?
MR (01:02:54):
Yeah.
SM (01:02:55):
Okay. The book was written by ... let us see, where is it here? Written by Rex Weiner.
MR (01:03:04):
Never heard of him.
SM (01:03:05):
Rex Weiner. If you go into the web, you will find out he is a big writer, written a lot of novels. And he has been a writer for a long time. And he ran away to Haight-Ashbury in the Summer of Love and brought home a souvenir case of hepatitis, studied the effects of drugs at NYU, dropped out to be a bum in Europe and became a staff writer for the East Village Other. And his best (19)60s moment was watching Timothy Leary fix a lawnmower. And the other author, her name is Deanne Stillman. S-T-I-L-L-M-A-N. She might be married now, so I could not find her, but I want to try to get ahold ... It is very good. And your picture is in here. He breaks down the sections and there is pictures at the beginning of each section. And there is a picture of you at Columbia in the one section.
MR (01:04:08):
Oh, well that is nice.
SM (01:04:08):
Yeah. And if I find it here, bear with me as I am looking, there is a section on drugs, there is a section on heroes, and I think that is where you are. Your picture is in the beginning of the heroes.
MR (01:04:22):
Yeah, but see, just a comment on me being a hero. I was really a media creation. I was one among many, many, many thousands of people who took risks and took leadership positions. And yet, I was still chosen by the media.
SM (01:04:46):
Yeah. And the media-
MR (01:04:46):
But if you want to pursue that question, take a look at Todd Gitlin's book, The Whole World Is Watching. It was written in the late (19)70s. He interviews a guy by the name of Michael... oh God, why am I blocking his name? He is a professor of peace studies. He studies oil. Margot, what is Michael's ... the professor, his wife was in peace development. Mike ... you know who I mean.
Margot (01:05:24):
Clare.
MR (01:05:26):
Mike Clare. Michael Clare. L-A-R-E. Michael Clare was in SDS. Michael Clare. [inaudible]. He is a writer for The Nation on oil policy. Good guy. He was involved in Columbia SDS. And he talks at length to Todd Gitlin in his book, The Whole World Is Watching, on the Mark Rudd phenomenon, of how the media created me as a leader. And so if these people list me as a hero, then what they have done is they have fallen for that.
SM (01:06:09):
Yeah. Well, I know that we had a period of time in the late (19)80s where we were asking students who their heroes were. And my generation, the heroes were people like Dr. King, John Kennedy, you name it. But that the generation Xers were talking about, "My parents are my heroes."
MR (01:06:35):
Oh, that is nice.
SM (01:06:36):
Or my uncle. So even within that generation, there was a change of how people looked at people and their-
MR (01:06:43):
Remember, it is the decline of utopianism.
SM (01:06:46):
Right. Sometimes their teacher. I know a person that was very influential in your life was when you were a student. I forget his full name. Potter?
MR (01:06:58):
Paul Potter?
SM (01:06:58):
Yeah. Paul Potter. You mentioned that his speech had such an effect on you.
MR (01:07:05):
Yeah.
SM (01:07:06):
And obviously there were other things that had an effect on you, but you seemed to really emphasize that one. What was it about that peer of yours that really had an effect on you?
MR (01:07:16):
How smart he was. I never knew him. I met him only in 1982. He died in 1984. I did not know him personally. But you read a speech like that, and it is true of the whole generation of the leaders of SDS, Tom Hayden and David Gilbert, a lot of others; these people had really understood what was going on. They had uncovered the truth, and they were a lot smarter and more relevant than the professor.
SM (01:07:51):
I think Rennie Davis fell in that category too, did not he?
MR (01:08:02):
I see the rise of a new student movement very slowly, but you do not have graduate students around. And the graduate students are important, because they know more.
SM (01:08:14):
Right. Just very quick thoughts here, and they do not have to be in detail. How did the (19)50s make the (19)60s?
MR (01:08:25):
Well, I think there was all this built up repression. But the biggest single thing, which we do not talk about enough, white people do not talk about enough, is the Civil Rights Movement. The Civil Rights Movement shook up this country. And that is got to be acknowledged. And so I will answer your question with one answer; the (19)50s was the rise to a mass movement, of the Civil Rights Movement.
SM (01:08:51):
How did the (19)60s make the (19)70s?
MR (01:09:01):
Well, there was a loosening of everything in the (19)60s, and then the (19)70s was kind of anarchic and nihilistic in a sense, or individualistic. And then that gave rise to Reagan and the 30 years of right-wing rule that we have had.
SM (01:09:22):
Yeah, that is absolutely going right in there. How did the (19)70s lead to the (19)80s and beyond? Yeah.
MR (01:09:28):
And one aspect of Reaganism, though, which should not be forgotten, is that the Civil Rights Movement unleashed black political power, especially in the South. And that caused the Democratic coalition to disintegrate. And the Democratic coalition had held the segregationist white South in the Democratic Party. So when there was a realignment in the (19)70s that led to Reagan, that entire racist wing of the Democratic Party split and went over to the Republicans. And we have still got that now. So people could say, "Oh, it was the excesses of the (19)60s," but at its real political core, it was a realignment in which the racists went to the Republican Party. I think that is got to be repeated about 500,000 times.
SM (01:10:26):
Mm-hmm. You talk about the biggest mistake that you ever made, obviously in the book, and I have seen you interviewed on C-SPAN and some of your other interviews, that was the breakup of SDS. And for obvious reasons, because SDS was the strongest anti-war group probably in history. But the question I want to ask is you were a personality, and so was Bernadine Dohrn, and so was some of the other leaders of SDS. How much does personality play within the leadership of a student group, not only as a plus, but as a minus? Because would not you say here the personalities played a negative? Because-
MR (01:11:12):
No. I think it is less personality than it is cliques. I think political cliques are the negative, and we had a clique. And the clique had lots of different personalities in it, but the clique was powerful enough to take over a big mass organization like SDS. So I think people have to look out for cliques, rather than personality.
SM (01:11:47):
You do not have to go into detail, but you consider that the biggest mistake of your life?
MR (01:11:51):
Oh, absolutely.
SM (01:11:51):
Yeah.
MR (01:11:52):
Going off SDS, are you kidding? Well, I thought I was doing one thing, but I did the opposite. I thought we were creating the beginning of a mass revolutionary movement among white people to join blacks in this country, and instead what we were doing was we were doing the work of the FBI for them. Absolutely the biggest mistake of my life, at the age of 22.
SM (01:12:19):
Well, idealism is one of the important things, and the people that you have mentioned who were in SDS, you were very proud of your intellectual strengths.
MR (01:12:33):
Too proud.
SM (01:12:33):
And the idealism. But you also mentioned in your book something; you said, "Idealism's downside is we believe our own ideas because we had them and we wanted them to be true. Do not believe everything you think."
MR (01:12:50):
Right.
SM (01:12:51):
That is important for students to learn. I have seen this in my working relationships with students. This is a very important little quote in your book, because I am idealistic, and I think you are too.
MR (01:13:04):
And so is [inaudible]. Especially the anarchist kid.
SM (01:13:07):
Right. Could you explain that in terms of learning a little more in detail?
MR (01:13:14):
Well, see, it is really more of ideology. People need to have an ideology; a set of beliefs that explain the world. It is sort of like a religious impulse, and once you get that ideology, then you think you have got everything figured out. One current ideology is anarchism, and I find a lot of good kids are stuck in this belief that we do not need governments, and that everything would be great if we just got rid of the government. And it is a totally religious belief. It does not represent reality. And I am not sure, for real learning to take place, you have to keep a certain skepticism, and even the skepticism in your own beliefs. Even scientists make this error. There is various research fallacies. I do not know the names of them, but they have to do with the idea that since you have a hypothesis, that the hypothesis must be true. But then scientific method holds that you have to do everything you can to disprove your hypothesis. So we need that same kind of cold scientific view of our ideas, and skepticism, and the belief that no ideology can ever describe reality.
SM (01:15:03):
One of the things-
MR (01:15:03):
The Buddhist precept that no belief structure is true, including Buddhism.
SM (01:15:15):
Your thoughts on just after the Vietnam War ended in (19)73? Well, the peace talks, and then (19)75, the helicopters go off the compound there in Saigon, which is now Ho Chi Minh City. Just your thoughts on what followed. And when you read the history books, what followed was an increase in the communal efforts, more increase in spirituality, and more going inward as opposed to working together as a group. So more of an individualistic-
MR (01:15:49):
We should have kept the organizing going, in retrospect. The right wing did keep the organizing going, but our generation eventually took right wing tower under George W. Bush. So the left did not keep the organizing going. That was our big error. Now we have got to come back to it and we have got to teach young people how to do it, how to organize.
SM (01:16:18):
Well, Richie Havens said that when a lot of people look at Woodstock, they just see this bunch of kids listening to great music. But he really reveals that half of the audience were not kids. There were a lot of parents with children there, and there were actually a lot of people in their 40s and 50s there. So that is something that is never told of the 400,000. But he says that Woodstock was much more than people truly understand, because it was an awakening that the kids of the (19)60s, who had been so hidden, were now being seen. And so he brings that up. And he also talks about the musicians of the late (19)50s and early (19)60s that were in Greenwich Village. And I know you knew all about this, and you were inspired by the Beats, that the Bob Jones of the world, and even the Richie Havens and Peter, Paul and Mary and that group, they could have been recognized a lot earlier, but they were not because they were kind of hidden.
MR (01:17:21):
Well-
SM (01:17:22):
And that the music kind of exposed and brought them out.
MR (01:17:25):
[inaudible] the folk song revival was that it happened at all. No such thing is happening now. But the folk song revival happened from the late (19)40s on into and through the (19)60s, and it was a lot of product of the left wing. And I think it was important, because it brought social consciousness to so many people. But in the current musical environment, you have nothing like that.
SM (01:18:04):
One of the things that I can vividly remember when I was a student at Ohio State, because I was in grad school in (19)71, (19)72 there, and of course I was at Binghamton up to that point, is I saw the separation between black students and white students really happening around that 1969 timeframe. And that was because the African-American students said, "I am not going to be protesting the war in Vietnam. We were going to concentrate on the issues here at home with the plight of African-Americans," ala Black Power, Black Panthers, and so forth. And even at Kent State, you cannot find an African-American student at that protest. They were told to not be there. And that basically-
MR (01:18:49):
That might have been in part a result of Black Power too, the idea of separation.
SM (01:18:57):
But what is really sad is when you were going underground at Ohio State in (19)71 and (19)72, you walk into the Ohio Union and black students did not want anything to do with white students. And they were having their dances in one section, and the other group was having their dances in the other section. And of course, the Afro hairdos were there. There was a lot of stuff happening. And one of the things that was so important about the (19)60s was a sense of community, of coming together, because so many of the movements came together. And all of a sudden, you are seeing these splits.
MR (01:19:33):
Right. Well, Black Power was a powerful thing. There was recently a book written about it called Columbia versus Harlem, or Harlem versus Columbia, by Dr. Stefan Bradley, a young black historian. And he talks about the black movement at Columbia. We were really only united with them for a moment. That moment was a very powerful moment.
SM (01:20:03):
I have only got a couple more questions, then I will be done. You mentioned a couple of the people that you read. I have it right here. I know there were three different books. What were the most influential books, Mark, in your life, that you read as you were young or that you have read since?
MR (01:20:25):
The Grapes of Wrath, the autobiography of Malcolm X, and oddly enough, a rather obscure book from 1974 called Labor and Monopoly Capital by Harry Braverman. [inaudible] Review Press. The guy is a genius, an economist who himself was a [inaudible] maker machinist. And he analyzed the nature of the current economy, which was the computerization, the automation of the workforce in which the average skill level of labor is driven down. That is the whole point of computerization, is that machines take over labor, and so you do not have to pay as much, and you do not need a skilled labor force. And that then defined my whole career as a teacher at a community college, which was, "Why is there so much failure? It is because the economy does not need highly skilled workers." But anyway, as long as we are listing books, I am going to list as my third Labor and Monopoly Capital by Harry Braverman. Have you ever seen it?
SM (01:22:07):
No, I have not, but I am going to go look it up.
MR (01:22:09):
Oh, do look it up. It is an amazing book.
SM (01:22:13):
Where do you put your book? Because I think your book should be in a classroom, should be required reading. You made a question to me, "How am I going to reach young people with this book project?" Because as mentioned, you have been somewhat frustrated. I firmly believe in youth as long as the adults do what they are supposed to be doing in terms of teaching. And if I was a professor in a classroom in the (19)60s, I would have your book as required reading. I mean-
MR (01:22:40):
That is wonderful.
SM (01:22:41):
No, I would.
MR (01:22:41):
It is coming out in paperback, so maybe it will.
SM (01:22:44):
And I know some professors who teach (19)60s courses, and I will certainly recommend to them. I do not know if the chair of the department will finally okay it, but I think it is just a fantastic book. And the two books that I wanted to know if you had actually read was The Greening of America, by Charles Wright.
MR (01:23:03):
I did. I did. And unfortunately, he did not prove right.
SM (01:23:09):
Yep. And the other one was The Making of a Counterculture, by Theodore Roszak.
MR (01:23:13):
I never did. Do you like that one?
SM (01:23:16):
I liked it. I wanted to interview him, but he is not well, so he says, "I cannot." He is not doing too well. So those are important. I also felt that Harry Edwards book, Black Students, I do not know if you have ever read it?
MR (01:23:27):
No. But Harry Edwards is an important guy.
SM (01:23:30):
Yeah, he is. But he is the one professor who defined the (19)60s activists more than any other. He broke them down into revolutionaries, activists, militants. And I know he also did what we call anomic activists, which are people who will just create havoc for no reason at all. You can just pay them and they will do it. They do not care. And it was in Black Students, we read that book, it was required reading at Ohio State, and I brought him to Westchester and I got a first edition signed. So it was pretty good.
MR (01:24:13):
Great.
SM (01:24:15):
If you had to live your life all over again, would you do it?
MR (01:24:17):
The same way?
SM (01:24:20):
Yeah. What changes would you do in your life, besides-
MR (01:24:22):
Non-violence. And organizing. Much more organizing. [inaudible] nature. And I think I probably would have gone earlier into the Democratic Party.
SM (01:24:37):
What do you hope will be your lasting legacy? Say that again, because the tape just-
MR (01:24:47):
The idea that mass movement, social and political, is possible, and that it takes organizing. And to not make the same mistakes that I did, which was not organizing and going into self-expression, which is what armed struggle is.
SM (01:25:05):
And I am going to end the interview with just... I had a whole list of names. I am not going to go through those names. But I wanted just your thoughts on four people, because they were really not liked by the anti-war movement, but I want hear it from you. And the four people are Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew, and what is the fourth one? Oh, and I just wanted to know a little bit more of your thoughts on Kennedy and McCarthy, because you call-
MR (01:25:36):
Okay. Kennedy and McCarthy, at the time, we thought were diversions from the revolutionary movement, which were growing. And [inaudible] back into the system. We did not believe that the system was going to survive. We thought that there would be an end to this sham democracy that we have. So in 1968, when there was an election, SDS's line was, "Vote in the streets." So we were kind of utopian anarchists at the time, and we wanted to ignore those people. I have never hated anybody in my life as much as I hated Lyndon Johnson. To this day, I despise him. I hate Lyndon Johnson more than I hate even Richard Nixon and George W. Bush. I worked for Lyndon Johnson as a high school kid, and I should have written more about this part, but I went to some demonstrations for Johnson, and I felt totally betrayed. And whatever happens to you when you are coming of age, that is very important emotionally. So I hated Lyndon Johnson worse than I hated any President, before or since. Now, rationally, I know that that is not possibly true, that Johnson was a continuation domestically of the New Deal, and there was a lot of good stuff. But I still hate him. Even Nixon, who was the embodiment of evil, I did not hate as much as Johnson. Spiro Agnew was a joke. I loved Spiro Agnew because he was so obviously unqualified to be anything. He might have been qualified to clean toilets someplace, but that is about it. And I loved Agnew because he was such a joke, and he was so corrupt that they had to fire him. They had to get him to resign before Watergate played out. So did that answer your question?
SM (01:27:55):
Yeah. And obviously I had forgotten Mr. McNamara, the best and the brightest, which Kennedy brought in.
MR (01:28:01):
Well, I never liked McNamara. I still did not like him when he wrote his so-called apology back in the (19)90s. And I hated him in [inaudible], and I despised him on the day he died.
SM (01:28:17):
And finally, the women who were the leaders of the women's movement, Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan. But I know you guys were criticized, as many people in the Civil Rights Movement and the anti-war movement, by being sexist, putting women in secondary roles. And I know I have interviewed people that were in SDS that were female, and they verify that. Just do you have any second thoughts?
MR (01:28:46):
I have a lot of respect for the founders of the women's movement. And even somebody like Robin Morgan, who eventually turned me into the FBI, I have respect for her ideas. I read her book in 1989, the Demon Lover on the sexuality of terrorism, and I learned a lot. But you might take a look at my essay, K and Me.
SM (01:29:19):
Oh, okay. I was reading some of those essays. J and Me. All right. Very good. And I guess that is it. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to?
MR (01:29:33):
No-no. That was good. That was a great interview. Please keep me informed of the progress of your book.
SM (01:29:39):
Oh, I will. And I really hope I can meet you. I want to get pictures of you, because I am doing that with each of the interviews.
MR (01:29:46):
Okay. I can send you any of the pictures in my book.
SM (01:29:51):
Yes. If you could send those, but-
MR (01:29:53):
No, wait. You have to ask for one or two.
SM (01:29:55):
Okay. Yeah, I will do that. Are you doing any lectures on the East Coast?
MR (01:30:01):
Let me see.
SM (01:30:03):
Lectures on the East Coast?
MR (01:30:03):
Let me see. There is one that is under discussion now in Pittsburgh.
SM (01:30:14):
Oh, okay.
MR (01:30:14):
In March. But watch on my website, I will announce it there.
SM (01:30:18):
I hope you can come to Kent State.
MR (01:30:21):
Maybe, we will see. I am involved in a political campaign here, reaching a climax in May, but we will see if there is a good role for me out there, I will come.
SM (01:30:33):
And you are still teaching, are not you?
MR (01:30:36):
At the moment? No. I taught last semester at UNM, University of New Mexico, but at the moment, I am not teaching.
SM (01:30:45):
Well, Mark, thank you very much for spending the time.
MR (01:30:49):
Sure. Good luck, Steve.
SM (01:30:50):
Yeah. And I admire what you did because you stood up and I knew about you when I was your age. You were the same age when I was at Binghamton, and I supported what you are doing. It was just the weatherman part, well, the rest is history, I guess. Mark, you take care and carry on.
MR (01:31:08):
All right.
SM (01:31:09):
Have a great day.
MR (01:31:12):
You too.
SM (01:31:12):
Bye.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Mark Rudd
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Rudd, Mark ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Peace movements—United States; Authors; Weather Underground Organization; Political activists--United States; Rudd, Mark--Interviews
Description
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Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, and anti-war activist who was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to "fight U.S. imperialism" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-02-01
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.106a: McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.106b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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175:20