84 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e0dd7fc6f1bf300a2b72e3ff4be51cb7.jpg 613b3ab5854753457ff694bdef471c87 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a57aa88505cf9eefbb19549e6c6e9f19.mp3 4a756cd38dbe31fc053f9d1c4d42c5f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Thompson, 1952-2016 Date of Interview 2010-03-08 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 115:58 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University where he studied journalism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University where he studied journalism. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Weathermen; Native Americans; Marijuana; Spirituality; Civil Rights Movement; Sexism; Women's Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Chicano Movement; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Environmental Movement; Racism; Voting Rights; Women's Suffrage; Healing; Beat Generation; Trust; Kent State; Vietnam Veterans; Anti-war Movement; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Weathermen; Native Americans; Marijuana; Spirituality; Civil Rights Movement; Sexism; Women's Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Chicano Movement; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Environmental Movement; Racism; Voting Rights; Women's Suffrage; Healing; Beat Generation; Trust; Kent State; Vietnam Veterans; Anti-war Movement; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society. Subject LCSH Journalists; Photographers; Authors, American--20th century;Gay activists; Gay Students Coalition (San Francisco, Calif.);Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mark Thompson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Photographers; Authors, American--20th century;Gay activists; Gay Students Coalition (San Francisco, Calif.);Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University, where he studied journalism. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-08 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.168a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.168b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 115:58 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/11c7cf57584e52aeba1afa31bceb1d71.mp3 a4d5a8446909cb5aa1119c36d0d9ce1c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 6 January 2020 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen and Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 45:11 Language English Digital Format Binghamton University Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Keywords Armenians, Beirut, Aleppo, Parents, Family, French, Turkish, Boston, Traditions, Armenian. Biographical Text Mary was born in Beirut, Lebanon to Armenian parents. Her family relocated to Boston, Massachusetts when she was young. She moved to the Broome County area after she married a Binghamton native. Mary has a Master's degree in Clinical Social Work. She is married with two children and grandchildren. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Mary Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Joseph Seif Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen Date of interview: 6 January 2020 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:09 JS: Today is January 6, 2020. We are at the Binghamton University Library with Mary. So, um, what ̶ Where were you born Mary? 00:25 M: I was born in Beirut, Lebanon, 00:26 JS: Or you were ̶ You went to Beirut, Lebanon. Okay. 00:28 M: I was born there. Yes. 00:30 JS: And what is your ethnic ̶ ethnic ̶ 00:32 M: I am Armenian. 00:33 JS: Armenian? Okay. How was ̶ Can you tell us a bit more about Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon? 00:39 M: Well, I came here when I was very young. So my parents immigrated here. So I do not really remember a lot about my life in Beirut prior to coming here. But when I graduated high school, my parents sent me back to get to know the country that I came from and to meet my family that was still there. So then I developed much more of an appreciation and a feeling for where I came from. 01:04 JS: So you have, you have a lot of family back in Lebanon. 01:08 M: Not anymore. I have one uncle, elderly uncle who lives there on my father's side, and then I have a my mother's sister and my cousin who live in Damascus. Other than that, there is well and a cousin who lives in Dubai, but I do not really consider that as much. Yeah. 01:24 JS: Okay. And so when did you come here to the US? He came here with your parents ̶ 01:29 M: With my parents in 1959, 1959. 01:34 JS: Wow. Do you have any siblings? 01:36 M: I have one sister. We are a year and a half apart. So we were both very little when we came here. And so I think we became Americanized very quickly as a result of that. And we started kindergarten together. And in the US in Boston, that was where we ended up. 01:53 JS: Okay, so you do not remember anything from when you were kid? You said ̶ 01:58 M: Um, I just, I just remember. Yeah, we spoke Armenian at home. Okay. What else did you want to ask me? I do not want to just ramble on. 02:06 JS: Oh, no. So was ̶ Armenian here in the US or just in Beirut, when ̶ 02:12 M: both my parents still wanted us to speak Armenian at home here, but we never did. But we were supposed to. 02:20 AD: Do you still speak Armenian? 02:21 M: I can speak I understand. Very well, I can speak but it is a little rusty now. But I understand it. My mother who only passed away four and a half years ago, always spoke Armenian to me. So the language is very much a part of me. Always. 02:36 JS: Um, so when you? You said you came to the US ̶ when you came to the US as a young kid and went to school here. How were ̶ How was like the environment change? Do you recall any of that? 02:47 M: Well, I just remember, um going to kindergarten and not understanding the teacher. 02:53 JS: Okay. 02:54 M: ̶ Like one day, and then the next day. I just understood, that was what it seemed like, I am sure the process. But you know, at that age, what are you going to remember, except just being there and all the kids understood the teacher and you did not understand word and then, but I do not remember being terribly upset by it. Because I think my parents just told me it would come real quickly and it did. Yeah. 03:14 JS: That is good. That is good. So could you let us know a bit more about your family's history, your parents? What work ̶ with their jobs and everything. 03:25 M: My father was from Beirut, and he got us. I mean, up through up until college, I do not know what school he went to. But he was French educated. And then he went to the American University in Beirut, and he is an engineer. He was an engineer. My mother went to a French missionary school in Damascus, where she grew up. And so French was her first language all along, after Armenian, and she got her baccalaureate. So my father was an engineer, and he worked as an engineer in Beirut, up until the time we came here, and then he got a job here in the center, 04:01 AD: where they born? Your dad? 04:03 M: My father was born in Beirut. My mother was born in Idlib, Syria, which is now really difficult place but 04:11 JS: [indistinct] Syria? 04:12 M: Idlib. 04:14 JS: Idlib, oh, yeah. Okay.[laughter] 04:20 AD: So how did they end up in Lebanon and Syria? Do you know that history? 04:29 M: I do not know very well, I know, my paternal grandparents, I think were from Istanbul and ended up in Lebanon. And I do not know how. I do not really have much information about their family. But on my mother's side, I know more than enough because my mother was a family historian. So she wrote a family history book, and she traced her family back on her father's side 500 years and they were always from Aleppo. And again, I guess, according to her research before that they were from Ani in Armenia. 05:02 AD: Van 05:03 M: Van, yeah. And then move to Aleppo. So they were at that point, I think when my mom was one my grandparents met. My grandfather was basically Arab speaking. very Armenian, you know, very Armenian orthodox religion. But just like we speak English, even though we are Armenian, and they spoke Arabic in the family. And do you have questions? Or ̶ 05:25 JS: This is very interesting? 05:30 AD: Yeah. 05:30 JS: So you mentioned that your mom wrote a book, is it? Is it published or ̶ 05:35 M: No, it is self-published. And I thought about it, but I just thought, you know, it is kind of a very personal book. And I do not know if you know, but my mother did other projects that, that I made sure to donate to the library when she passed away. She did. She was very artsy. And she sewed and did a lot of things like that. And she made like 50 costumes for Armenian historical costumes that were spectacular. And we donate donated them to the Armenian Museum in Boston, where they have them and they display them. 06:09 JS: So your mom did like more Armenian art or traditional cultural ̶ 06:15 M: the costumes, like she researched all the history, and all the costumes of women of the various periods starting in pre Christian times, all the way up to you know, the World War I time, and she did all the costumes. It is unbelievable. But I do not have pictures of all of them. But I have pictures of a couple I can possibly send you. Plus she did an oral history project to where she went to. There was an Armenian nursing home in Jamaica Plain Massachusetts. It was all Armenian elderly people. And she did an oral history where she would go in and tape them talking about their experiences during World War I, during the genocide ̶ 06:56 AD: So those are the survivors. 06:57 M: The survivors of the genocide, and that we also donated to the museum. 07:03 JS: Wow. It is fascinating. 07:05 M: It is. Yeah. 07:09 AD: It is, it actually is. So when you were ̶ So when did you move to Binghamton? 07:13 M: When I got married. And ̶ 07:15 AD: So, you grew up in Boston. 07:18 M: I grew up in Boston? Yep. Where there is a big Armenian community. Yes. 07:22 AD: Okay. Even today, it still continues ̶ 07:24 M: Oh, yeah. Okay. So, can you tell me how your surrounding ̶ like, your house ̶ when you were growing up? When you go to your friend's house, like, did your house look different? Are ̶ you know, like ̶ 07:42 M: No not really. No, it was pretty similar. My parents were pretty Europeanized. And I do not think that there was anything that would distinct ̶ distinguish us from my friends homes or anything like that. My best friend was Armenian. But that just kind of happened growing up because her parents were friends with my parents. So I do not feel in any way that I grew up feeling different. I went to high school, I went to an all-girls Catholic High School in Boston, where everybody was either Italian or Irish. There is a huge Irish population there. And then I felt a little different because my family you know, did not we went to an Armenian Orthodox Church and this and that, but I never really felt like it has stigmatized me I had a lot of friends and things so did I answer your question? 08:27 AD: Yes. So you did not have anything represents Armenian culture in ̶ like your decorations? 08:36 M: No. 08:36 AD: Nothing like ̶ 08:38 M: In my house or my parents’ house? 08:40 AD: In your house or in your parents’ house. 08:45 M: I am trying to think but it was long time ago ̶ 08:46 AD: You said made costumes. Was she also, also like, like crochet ̶ you know, stuff like that. 08:55 M: My grandmother did things like that, that my mother had. But my mother did not do those things. And when I was growing up, my mother was not even really that involved with doing those kinds of things that she later went on to do with her research and her book writing and things like that. I see. 09:10 AD: I see. So how about food? 09:13 M: Oh, yes, food? Definitely. We ate Armenian food, which we still love to go and eat Middle Eastern food because it is part of our culture and what we love so the food definitely, yeah. 09:24 AD: And how about your house? Like when you can? Yeah, like, ah, did you eat Armenian food growing out? 09:34 Daughter: That tradition continued? Yeah, yes, 09:38 AD: Food continues language ends, but food continues. 09:42 M: Language did not end either. But it did end with my kids. Unfortunately, that is where I do blame myself that my husband is also Armenian, and he can understand but he does not speak at all. So it became a little bit of an impediment for me just like on an everyday basis to just speak the language but she [referring to her daughter] because she hung out with my mother and me all the time. Got a real earful of Armenian. So she understands a lot more than she even gives herself credit for. I think, yeah. 10:09 Daughter: I wish I spoke fluently, but ̶ 10:12 AD: Well, if you have it, so maybe if you visit, yeah, you know, Armenia then or hang out with more Armenian speaking people. 10:24 Daughter: Absolutely. Even after a week of being around extended family, you see yourself understanding more than you even did prior to that. So ̶ 10:34 AD: Absolutely. One day. Yeah, yeah. Why not? 10:36 JS: So you said your there was a big Armenian community in Boston. Were you friends with a lot of them? Did you guys have like parties? Or events ̶ 10:43 M: Yes, it was fun being a young person in Boston, those days. I belong to the church, the ASA, the Armenian Student Association. And then when I went to college, I belong to another Armenian young adult organization. And there were always dances and I was in a play, speaking in Armenian, I mean, all this crazy stuff, but it was very fun. And actually, my best friend was also Armenian. And we did not even know we were Armenian. Until after we got to know each other and like, “Oh, my gosh, your Armenian too?” Oh, yes. There was ̶ It was great. It was really nice. We had a lot of fun. 11:18 JS: That is good. So is that how you met your husband? Or? 11:20 M: No, we were set up on a blind date. 11:23 JS: Oh really? 11:23 M: Yes. By family? Yeah. Because I have family here in Binghamton. And we were here to visit them once and his elderly aunt met me and thought, “Oh, she might work for my nephew.” So that was how that got set up. 11:40 JS: Interesting. 11:40 AD: So were you expected to marry an Armenian? 11:45 M: You know, you probably think I was but there was not any pressure on me to do so. My mother just said marry the person you love. And my father was never very Armenian in his, in his sentiment and his identity. And my father was very much of like an artistic type who really kind of felt closer to France and all that rather than he did to Armenian but my mother was very Armenian, but she never impose that on me. No. 12:08 AD: How about you with your ̶ How many children do you have? 12:12 M: My daughter and my son who is older? Yeah. I never did ̶ 12:17 Daughter: I think it was always something that they recognize would be an asset in a relationship if you had that shared cultural background and understanding of each other. But there was never an expectation attached to it. 12:28 AD: So how do you identify yourself? 12:30 Daughter: Very Armenian? Like, like my mother said, I grew up very close to my, my grandmother and other relatives. And that was always such a fundamental part of their identity that even more than my brother, I think I took that on and I really identify with it. 12:47 AD: Are you married? 12:48 Daughter: Yes. 12:40 AD: Do you have children? 12:51 Daughter: No. 12:51 M: She just got married. 12:52 Daughter: A couple of ̶ three months ago. [laughs] 12:56 AD: Oh, congratulations. How about your brother? Is he married? 12:58 Daughter: He is and two children too. 13:01 AD: So how about his children? Do they identify themselves with the Armenian ̶ 13:07 Daughter: There ̶ His wife is European, very Western European. My brother like I said, it is not as much of a part of his identity as it is with mine. It comes through ̶ my mother introduces them to Armenian music. 13:21 M: And I spoke to them in Armenian sometimes when I can they understand body parts, you know, in the Armenian language and things like your toes or whatever. 13:31 Daughter: But I guess time will tell a little bit. They are still very young, so. 13:35 AD: And still a lot is going on in that part of the world. It is good to know that language that is for sure. Yeah. Any languages from that part of the world is really vital. I think. 13:49 JS: Did you guys ever go back to visit Armenia? Or ̶ 13:53 M: So going back I told you, my parents sent me between high school and college I spent more than I actually loved it so much in Beirut that I was always supposed, yes. Okay. So I was just turned 18. I took this whole trip all by myself, stayed with my relatives in Syria and in Lebanon, and then ended up staying in Lebanon and loving it so much that I asked my parents that I could go to school there and I went to AUB [American University in Beirut] for two semesters. But then when we started dodging rockets coming from here and there, my parents said “Come home immediately,” so ̶ 14:28 JS: Was that during the Civil War? 14:29 M: Yes. The beginning of the Civil War. Yes. 14:31 JS: you were there. Were other Armenians there as well? I would imagine. So yeah. 14:37 M: Oh, huge, huge amount of population of Armenians. Right there. Yes. Yep. Yeah, but I loved it. It was fabulous. 14:46 JS: Yeah, a lot of the food in Lebanon and elsewhere in the Middle East is influenced by Armenian, a lot of the, the meat. I know you guys call them differently. 14:56 AD: Köfte 14:56 M: Yes, köfte, we call it köfte too. 14:59 JS: Oh, you do okay, okay. [laughter] 15:02 M: Absolutely, and we have the dolma, which is like the stuffed zucchini and cabbages and 15:07 Daughter: Grape leaves ̶ 15:07 M: Grape leaves, yeah with different kinds of stuffing 15:12 AD: Fasulye. 15:12 M: Fasulye, oh, yeah. Like in my freezer right now. So yeah ̶ 15:17 AD: Absolutely. It is the same food. It is just, you know, everybody ̶ like the ethnicity of the food so you can separate. 15:27 JS: It is hard to determine ̶ 15:29 AD: From Greece all the way to you know, [indistinct]. You cannot separate it. It is just so intertwined. Yeah, yes. 15:40 Daughter: Absolutely. 15:40 AD: We all eat the same food. 15:42 M: Yes. And it is good, healthy, really delicious food. 15:48 Daughter: She, she is a really good cook. 15:53 M: Oh, [indistinct] 15:54 JS: you cannot say otherwise. You have to say ̶ 15:56 Daughter: Oh, that is ̶ 15:57 M: That is right. I am twisting her arm behind the scene so you better tell them I am a good cook. 16:02 JS: I would have to do that for my mom. 16:07 M: Oh, she is for sure. 16:08 JS: All right, so you mentioned religion when you came to the US. So back in Beirut, there was a big? Well, you do not quite remember it. But when you grew up here with religion and stuff, there was a lot of Catholic in Boston, right? As the most orthodox was that any barrier to ̶ 16:26 M: But there was a big Armenian population there. There are five Armenian churches in the greater Boston area. The different parts of you know, different kind of factions, if you will, of the Armenian Church, the different kind of philosophical slash political beliefs that lead to different kinds of churches. But we were part of the Holy Trinity Armenian Church, and that was where I grew up going. It is a beautiful big church. Right. Yeah. That was there already. When? When we went to Boston. 16:54 JS: Okay. And did you ever go back to Armenia itself? 16:58 M: I have never been to Armenia, I have never been there. 17:01 JS: You do not have any relatives, family there? No, 17:04 M: No. 17:07 AD: How about Istanbul? 17:08 M: I have never been there. And I just feel like all the family ̶ My Turkish people that grew up in Turkey, ended up the ones that I know, have ended up either in Lebanon or Syria. 17:20 AD: So they left, because I ̶ my research deals with non-Muslim groups in Istanbul. And yeah, some people left but like a lot of Armenians from Istanbul, they do not end up leaving ̶ but there are some yes, but, but a lot of them stayed. 17:47 M: That is very ̶ I am sure that is true. I do not like I said, the only people I knew from Istanbul were my paternal grandparents and I do not have any history on why they would have left and why they ended up in Lebanon, I have no idea. 18:01 AD: You could do that research. You could find your ̶ 18:05 M: I think that is probably in my future. And I would love to get some help. 18:10 AD: I will help you. 18:11 M: Thank you. I was just going to kind of put that in there, somewhere, yeah. 18:15: AD: I will help you, yeah. 18:16 M: Because my, my uncle who's still alive, he is in his 90s. Now he sent me like a little family tree with pictures, but it only went back two generations, like his parents, so that on the fourth generation, way from where he came, but I would like to know why they went. I know my mother's mother was born in Antep, Gaziantep I think it is called now, they came from what I was told was a wealthy family there have an Armenian kind of area in Turkey. But I guess when the war started, they just left everything. But they were close enough to Aleppo to not get into some of the difficulties that some of the others did, leaving the country. So they just took a train left everything behind, ended up in Aleppo, where the Syrians had a really amazing social services’ system set up for the people, the refugees from the war, so they had them housed and fed and my grandmother was teaching English unbelievably enough in an Armenian school that got set up in for the orphans in Aleppo. And that was how she met my grandfather, who was a lawyer, actually, he went to law school Istanbul, my grandfather on my mother's side, but then he went back to Aleppo afterwards to practice law. 19:34 AD: Yeah, is it ̶ but the ̶ what I know of the Armenian ̶ majority of non-Muslim population, especially Armenians, they were like really well educated group of people. 19:51 M: Yeah, I my family that has always been stressed. We all you know, doctors, engineers. I have a master's degree clinical social work so and so does my daughter. I mean, we stressed education and my husband has a degree from, from University of Pennsylvania. I mean that, that has always been not financial wealth as much as just really education was always stressed. 20:13 JS: Okay. Yeah. Can you tell us more about your family's history on your mother's side? The one that you know that that is really interesting. 20:21 M: So what do you want me to state ̶ So, so my grandfather's family was there, he went to Istanbul and got his law degree, went back met my grandmother, who was one of the refugees from Turkey, fell in love got married, they had six children in eleven years. And my grandfather became a circuit judge in northern Syria. So they had like ̶ each kid was practically born in a different part. My mother was born in Italy, her younger sister was born in Deir ez-Zor or others born in Aleppo. And then I think the youngest one was born in Damascus, but I could be wrong about that. I cannot remember. So they traveled a lot. But my mother loved Aleppo. Aleppo was very special for her, because that was where she was really little. And ̶ everybody was looking at their phone. 21:12 Daughter: Sorry about that. 21:16 M: So and then, when my mother was I do not know how old she was really, she was still ̶ she went to an Armenian Elementary School in Damascus, because then he got transferred to Damascus. And so my grandfather had quite a stature in his community, in the Armenian community in Damascus. And the Armenian Pope, the pope from Etchmiadzin in Armenia came to Damascus, and he stayed at my grandparents’ home. And they had all kinds of ceremonies and things like that this was a story my mom told over and over. So there was a lot of respect for, for my grandparents in the community. And then he became a member of parliament, and he represented the Armenian population in Syria. And while the French were still in Syria, but then when the French left and the Syrian government, you know, it kind of went into turmoil and all that, then he lost his position there. And then he died shortly after that. That enough, do you have more questions? [laughter] 22:15 JS: That is really interesting. Interesting. Wow. So do you know anything ̶ Do you know more about the French? Like, when Syria was under French control how, how life was there? Or ̶ 22:28 M: I think they were very happy. And from what my mother tells me, the various religious minorities, whether it was the, you know, the Muslims, the Armenians, the Catholics, or whoever, they all got along very well. There was no problem. My, my, my grandparents had friends from all walks of life and from all various religious, ethnic backgrounds, and everybody was really comfortable. And I think the French let them be pretty much they did not try to impose them their culture on them so much, so they grew up in a pretty good place. Like I said, my mom went to French schools. 23:06 JS: Yeah. Oh, yeah, that is right. That is the French Connection. 23:07 M: The French Connection. The Franciscan nuns, the French nuns, and my uncle's some ̶ My mother was five brothers and sisters, three brothers and two sisters. So the boys went to a French boy school and the daughters went to a Franciscan. 23:22 JS: Interesting. So what, what really ̶ do you know what happened after when the French when Syria gained independence? Why did, why did your grandfather get kicked out of ̶ 23:35 M: I do not know exactly why, but I guess, um it just kind of happened because the Syrians maybe did not identify the Armenians as, as a group that needed to be represented in the parliament. I do not know exactly. But I know that it was very difficult for him afterwards. And he was only in his early 60s and he died of a heart attack shortly after that was very stressful for him. Yeah. 24:01 AD: I am sure it was the stress. 24:03 M: Yeah, yeah. 24:06 JS: What time is ̶ Okay. See if you have any other questions, do you have anything? 24:13 AD: No. 24:15 JS: Do you have anything you want to add on or say? Anything about your family? Anything you can recall, but anything you experienced that was Armenian or linked to Armenia? 24:27 M: Well, my family is dispersed all over the world. And we all maintain our Armenian heritage very closely. We get together as much as we can. We are very close. So I think part of that is just due to our Armenian background, you know, 24:42 JS: Yeah. Do you guys ever like you said mentioned your whole family's around the world? Do you guys ever do like a big family? 24:48 M: Oh, yeah. 24:49 JS: Oh you do? 24:50 M: We just had one about two years ago in Canada, but we have done it in France. We have done it, um ̶ When I was little, we went back to the Middle East with my mom and we spent a whole Somewhere in the Middle East, but I was still little, you know, at that time, so, but I remember oh wait a minute I do remember, I was in my grandmother's kitchen, and that was when Saddam not Saddam. Okay, I am the president of Syria. Oh, Hafez Al Assad was there was a coup d'etat while we were there. This was in 1963. There and so we were at this reunion, and there was a coup d'etat going on, I was in my grandmother's kitchen, all of us. There was like, I have twenty-three cousins, and my mom has lots of siblings and my grandmother and all these people. And they started like guns going off in the street. And they did. They did were curfews. Thank you where you can, you know, leave after so we would all just hang around in one house and the kids. We were having a ball, but the adults were. But then we went to Beirut, and then we you know, got a house and big fire all of us all together. It was great. But yeah ̶ 25:55 JS: It is a good place. 25:57 M: Oh, it is so beautiful. I remember that. I remember mountain climbing and just running and playing all day long. It was so beautiful. 26:04 JS: Yes. It is very known to being an Armenian ̶ Armenian place. 26:08 M: Is that so I did not know. Yeah. 26:10 JS: Yeah, Yeah. It is, also it is also a good place for skiing as well. It is up there. 26:15 M: Yeah. Yes, it is. Yeah. It had red dirt. I remember mountain climbing coming home, my mother being mad because our clothes were covered in red soil, and she could not wash out. But yeah, it is a beautiful place. 26:28 JS: Interesting. I do not know what to add. 26:33 AD: Okay. Um, did you hear from your mom, or your dad, like, anything related to the Armenian Genocide? 26:47 M: You know, I was just telling my daughter that I never knew that was a genocide until I went to the Middle East. And even then it was not like it was not a cocktail party conversation. And the only way that I heard it was because my, my mother sister that I am very close to ̶ used to take me on her visiting days when they would go to different lady's houses, and they would have coffee and pastries and stuff. And one of the ladies there was, they would all say she was to be in a Turkish harem. And they said it was because during the war, she was a little girl, and somebody put her in a harem. And then anyway, I do not know how she got out of the harem. I do not know what happened. But I remember saying how did that happen? And they told me Well, there was a war and a lot of Armenians died or, or were killed or went through these death marches. And she was just taken on. But they also said, and this is something I wanted to stress too, you know, yes, it was terrible. And the government made these choices that killed all those Armenians, but the average Turkish person, somebody's neighbor, somebody's friend, we were doing everything they could to help the Armenians behind the scenes, you know, 27:52 AD: Yeah, they are friends, neighbors ̶ Wouldn't you help someone ̶ 27:57 M: Absolutely. But I guess their point was, they did not want the whole thing to seem as though there was some monstrous thing going on with everybody participating. It was just kind of ̶ 28:06 AD: Yeah, not everybody. Yeah, it was it was political. And then a couple of people decided it was ̶ all political concerns, right? What is going on today? But people that ̶ help each other? 28:21 M: Yes. But I think it was on my parents got divorced. And my mother married a Hungarian man who lived through the war, and then Revolution and the Russian takeover of Hungary. So he was a refugee that went to Boston from Hungary. And so he really, I think, was kind of an impetus for my mother to start researching more about what happened with Armenians and the genocide. And, um so that was when I learned more and more about it, and, yeah ̶ 28:50 AD: Because up until the nineteenth century, you know, the, the word is millet. It is like people with book ̶ religious book, like either Jews or Armenians or Greek, you know. They had some rights. It was not like, they do not mean ̶ they were minority. But it was not like, like in the nineteenth century, that they lost everything. It was like that. So but it is all political. Now, fortunately, right? It has happened, but it is. So you do not mean this to arrive or that you recall from your family ̶ 29:41 M: As I said, my maternal grandmother left but it was not. It was not a really traumatic, it was very hard for the family because they left everything behind. But there was no physical danger that they were in or anything like that. But on my, my husband's father's side, he grew up in Hadjin [Saimbeyli]. I do not know what it is called. It is like a mountainous area with his family, his father was a priest. And the whole family left and went to Marseilles when things first started, but my father in law who was born the same year as my, my grandmother, so he was born in 1902. Okay, my father in law, so now he would have been like a hundred eighteen years old. So he was a child during World War I. And he got left behind with an elderly relative who could not travel. So he went through a lot. And he thought a lot being where he was, and not being and being fifteen. But somehow, he made it to Marseilles at some point, I do not know details, because he could never talk about it. I think his whole life, he probably had a lot of PTSD as a result of it. Post traumatic. Yeah. 30:54 AD: Yeah. It was not an easy time. That is for sure. 30:55 JS: So when you were ̶ you said you found out when you were in Lebanon? Did you feel like the Armenians, the Armenian community did not really talk about it? Or did they? It felt like something they just want to leave behind? Or ̶ 31:10 M: I do not think so I think there are definite groups of Armenians that, you know, wanted, I do not want to say we banned, but wanted it. And I think all Armenians just out of the sake of you know, after the Jewish Holocaust, there was retribution and all that. And that there, there needs to be some sort of closure, some sort of admission and closure. Nobody wants to go take lands back, as far as I know, at least people I know, do not do not want to do that. They just want to sense a closure. And a sense of Yes, you did go through that. And it was terrible. But it is all behind us now. And we can move on from there. You know, and I think we all agree on that. But there are some that are a little more militant than that. I do not know if they are still like that. But when I was a kid growing up in Boston, there were some people that used to get a little more worked up over it. 31:57 AD: Absolutely. 31:57 JS: Yeah that makes sense. 31:58 AD: Yeah, absolutely, um. Go ahead. 32:09 JS: I am thinking I am thinking, 32:11 AD: I had something, but I forgot right now. 32:12 JS: Okay. Um, do you ever plan to go back to do live there? I mean, or like visit one more time, or ̶ 32:21 M: If the political situation is not as bad as it is now. I would never go back right now. My, my aunt and my cousin are actually in Damascus, and they are living there. They went to Beirut, when the war was really going on in Syria really badly. They got an apartment in Beirut, and they seem to be doing well. But my aunt was in her eighties just was not happy there. She wanted to be back in her hometown. So when things quite a done in Damascus, her daughter helped, you know, went with her just so that she would not be alone. And they are there. And it worries me now whenever I hear the news and what is going on, but they are so used to it. Not, not to say not to normalize it, but in some ways, you know ̶ 33:02 JS: Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. 33:05 AD: Well, you can always go back to Istanbul. They are like, maybe you do not know your relatives, but the architecture is ̶ like wonderful. Oh, yeah. Armenian architects. And that is my thing, architectural history. So well. I mean, they are, like, beautiful examples of the architecture and the cuisine. Like the ̶ Istanbul the food ̶ It is definitely Armenian and Greek ̶ combination of that Greek culture. 33:42 M: Right. 33:42 AD: It is, it is really, really delicious. 33:44 M: Right, well, my mother used to make Istanbul dishes from learning from her mother in law. And those were my favorites always. They are really good. 33:52 AD: Yeah, it is. It is unbelievable. So and then, you know, the churches. 33:57 M: And the mosques. I know though. Yeah. But also there are like, 34:02 AD: Yeah, but also there are like ̶ beautiful Armenian churches, majority is Gregorian [the Armenian Apostolic Church], we have real a small number of Orthodox Armenians. The majority ̶ I am told about, like more than 90 percent is Gregorian. 34:18 M: Gregorian. I am not sure what ̶ 34:20 AD: It is more I think protest. 34:22 M: Oh, okay. 34:23 AD: It is I but still, I think it is not like after the Reformation period, it is still before, but if they ̶ I do not know, I am not a big person. That is the Gregorian. 34:44 M: Okay. You know, I do not think I have ever quite heard that term before. Unfortunately. 34:50 AD: Really? Oh, that is, that is the majority of ̶ the sect. 34:56 M: Okay. But it is more Protestant. You said it is the Protestant. 34:59 AD: That is what I am thinking because it is not orthodox, we have some orthodox Armenians but it is like very small percentage but majority ̶ like Armenians, Assyrians they are Gregorian so do not ask me so much about it. 35:20 M: I am going to go home and Google it and learn about it. 35:26 AD: Yeah. [laughter] 35:26 M: But I ̶ my mother gave me a notebook that belonged to my ̶ It was like my grandfather her father's journal that he kept when he was young like he made the note that the day that my mother was born and wrote about his feelings about having a new daughter and it is beautiful but I cannot really read it because I do not read Armenian I speak it but I do not read it so but there is also a part in it about when he was in law school and about how much he loved Istanbul and again he talked about the architecture and the beauty of the of the land itself and the, the, the beauty of the country you know, so he was very impressed with it. Because he grew up in Aleppo very dry very yeah desert like can almost conditions so ̶ 36:09 AD: And whereas Istanbul is all water. You know, you know, of course we have less green now. Thanks to all this unnecessary buildings, structures, but still is, still it is beautiful. I think it is. 36:31 M: Is that where you are from? 36:33 AD: Yes. That is where I am from. So I am not objective about it. 36:39 M: You do not have to be. 36:42 AD: [indistinct] hometown. Yeah, it is different. When you talk about your hometown, definitely. 36:52 JS: Okay. Well, I am just going to wrap up everything but before I do, I just wondering if you have anything else to add about food, culture, religion, experience is at think of any cultural thing. Traditional stuff? 37:10 M: I do not know. I do not think so. I think of anything ̶ 37:15 AD: I have a question so like when you name your children? Do you pick Armenian names? 37:23 M: I did not. Although I my daughter's middle name is my mother's name, which was Armenian. 37:29 AD: Yeah. 37:29 M: And my ̶ But no, other than but my great grandma, my grandma, not my grandma. Yeah, yeah, my granddaughter's first name is my mother's name. Lusin. You have, you have seen her at the restaurant? The little girl, not the baby. But the other one. Yes. Her name is Lusin, which is my mother's name, which means moon and Armenian. And so, yes, but other than that, yeah, not. Because my name was always hard. Okay. And I had the one that has probably come to think of it. The one thing that did torment me was my name. Because No, none of my teachers could say it. And so my parents changed my name to Susan, when I was, when I was in elementary school. So somebody would call me Susan instead of Hey, you were Yeah, that one over there. So that was the only thing that I had problems with was my name. Yeah. 38:19 JS: Wow. Interesting. 38:22 M: Yeah, forgot about that 38:23 Daughter: Leaves an impression. 38:25 AD: Yeah. But ̶ I have five letter on my first name, okay. How different ̶ It is not like I have fifteen letter, all consonants together that you do not know how to pronounce it. Five letters. And I have like thirty different versions ̶ how my name spelled and pronounced. 38:49 M: Oh, join the club. 38:50 AD: I do not want to put in the tape now. Some of the things I was told. And I am like, “Really?” Like, “How did you come up with that?” 39:00 M: Well, exactly. I can I can tell you I had the same experience that was shocking, because if you can read you can tell it that completely off base. But then, but my name is five letters to it is not that confusing. 39:17 AD: You know, Indian names and it stars and it never ends and you are like “Okay.” “How am I going to say that?” It is not like that ̶ five letters. You can come up with something easily. That is amazing to me. It is like, but that is, that is people's laziness. I think seriously, that is how I feel. 39:43 M: Right about I also think that now everybody's name is made up like everybody makes up their kids names. Well, when I was growing up, nobody had any different names than Kathy and Mary and a couple other names and if your name was different than you were different because of it. Which I did not mind. I just wanted them to pronounce my name correctly. 40:04 JS: Yeah. 40:04 AD: Yeah that I totally understand. 40:08 JS: The science of the names. 40:10 AD: You are happy your name is very easy. 40:13 JS: Three words ̶ three letters ̶ Joe 40:17 AD: How can you go wrong with that, right? 40:18 M: Yeah, you cannot go wrong with that. 40:20 JS: Less than a safe so you can just call me there Joe save or Joseph. 40:27 AD: That is easy. 40:28 M: That is easy. 40:30 JS: The only thing with me is that people look like wait your name is Joe. Are you sure? But do not think it is like Mohammed or something like ̶ yes like to make sure. 40:40 Daughter: To convince them 40:41 JS: Convince them. 40:43 AD: Because there is this conception that if you are from Middle- East you must be Muslim or Jewish. It is like you know, if you are a Christian that oh really there is still this you know, I mean if you are from the area you know that is normal but if you are not there is that concept in their mind like majority of the people are Muslim and ̶ 41:10 M: That is right. Or they do not know the finer distinctions between ̶ I was born in Lebanon but I am Armenian you were born in Lebanon maybe but your ̶ you are Lebanese or you are Arab extraction whatever, but they do not they do not get that they, they we have Lebanese friends and they call us Lebanese too, because they know we were I was born in Lebanon. So I guess that makes me Lebanese in a way but I guess I really identify with Armenian and not Lebanese you know. 41:39 AD: People who are born and lived all their lives over there. I would say Lebanese Armenian or Turkish Armenian. You know what, like, because you are as much as Turkish if you were born and raised there. 41:59 M: Yeah. 42:00 AD: Like anybody else. 42:01 M: Right? 42:01 AD: That, that is not the ethnicity that ties you to the land. 42:07 M: That is right. 42:08 AD: You are from there. You know, you are from Istanbul and yes, you are from Istanbul. It does not matter what religion you have, what ethnicity you have, you belong that piece of land, 42:20 M: The exact words, but they, but they kind of inter interject the ethnicity into the piece of land you belong to and the language and the religion just go along with it. So it is kind of hard to pull it all apart for people sometimes I think. 42:33 AD: I know 42:34 JS: What, what I believe is might be a bit more like a counter you but I think like where you were born does not necessarily mean. That is who you are. Because I was born in Saudi Arabia. I am not ̶ definitely not Saudi Arabian. 42:49 AD: Come on now. 42:49 JS: I am ̶ no. 42:51 JS: I do not. I like ̶ that land means nothing to me. Just a piece of desert. And that is it. 42:58 AD: Yeah, but you were there for a short period of time. I am talking about people ̶ 43:05 JS: That live there ̶ 43:05 AD: Generations after generation, do not they think they deserve that, that they are from that piece of land? 43:14 M: Right. Sorry. 43:15 JS: ̶ Can contribute? 43:16 AD: Like they were there for three years or less? 43:19 AD: That is right. That is right. Okay. Hey, that is that is what I get. 43:23 M: Yeah, my, my mother's mother was born in Turkey. She left when she was I do not know how old I guess she was about fifteen when they went to Aleppo, but she spoke Turkish to her sisters her whole life. And I think she had a strong affinity to Turkey. And Antep. She cooked all the food that was really regional Antep cooking, which is awesome, too. You know? 43:46 AD: Yes it is and who knows? How many generations? 43:49 M: Oh, way back. 43:49 AD: ̶ lived here. That is what I am saying. 43:53 M: Exactly 43:53 AD: Yeah. Like something happened. This is all political. At the end of the World War I, like when everything became crazy in that part of the world. So they made this exchange like, for Greeks, like whoever lived in Turkey had to leave look like how shocking that is. They had to leave their motherland, that they been living there for centuries, and they had to go to Greece. Likewise, Turks who have been living in Greece need to leave there. And guess what those people never made that because they were always looked at as an outsider wherever they left. To me, that was the cruelest thing you can do to someone 44:43 M: Definitely being displaced. Yeah, that is a terrible thing. It is. 44:49 AD: It really is forceful, but ̶ 44:53 AD: Yeah, so anything else, Joe? 44:56 JS: I do not have anything. No. Think¬ ̶ 45:00 M: I do not ̶ I really 45:03 JS: I think it is a wrap. 45:05 AD: Thank you so much. 45:07 M: My pleasure. It was very fun. Very interesting. Very nice to meet you. 45:11 AD: Yes. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/08ced4d8cdc31e0cd93ce3e47961f098.mp3 8b9701fadd1e1901cf95eda113bf885a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Keeney, Mary Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Date of Interview 1977-12-16 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 30:22 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55957">Interview with Mary Keeney</a> Subject LCSH Keeney, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Mechanicsburg (Pa.); Pennsylvania Dutch; Nurses -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Dry goods store Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mary Keeney Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of Interview: 16 December 1977 Susan: This is Susan Dobandi, interviewer, and I'm talking with Mary Keeney, who lives at 150 Chapin St., Binghamton, NY. The date is December 16, 1977. Mary, I'd like you to tell me something about your life in your early beginnings. Could you start with where you were born? Mary: Yes, I was born in southern Pennsylvania, in York county in the country, and we lived there for about three years, then we moved to a little old town, Mechanicsburg—this was across the river from Harrisburg, about nine miles west in the Cumberland Valley which is a beautiful valley about 20 miles across where I lived. The land was—ah—limestone country, very ah productive, and the fields were acres and acres of wheat and corn and not—not large dairy ah herds but more farming. We lived in, usually, lived in about a six room house that was common for the poorer people and we had these six rooms, very comfortable but no conveniences, no hot water, cold water, no bath. No heating except with a range or cook stove and a heater if you wanted to heat the rest of the house. Bedrooms were pretty chilly. We got along without bathrooms but it wasn't as bad as what one would think having that outside toilets because, being the limestone land, there was plenty of drainage underneath the town. It seemed like there were underground streams that carried off anything that would be—would sink down. To have an outside toilet they would dig down until they found a rock, underneath that rock there would be an opening. Many times they turned the firehose in there and flushed it out then built the outside toilet, which of course made the danger of wells, so they had to close up the wells. They were not used, they couldn't be used any more because of this underground sewage. The sewage system only carried of the surface water. They—the town was—the people were very much under the influence of the Pennsylvania Dutch, which are not really Dutch but from Germany. The people came from different parts of Germany and they were different as they came from different parts of Germany. They would differ, as they came and for a long time I thought it was real Pennsylvania Dutch but I found out that it was not—not the true Pennsylvania Dutch as it's called now. Not so much. Susan: Mary, did this influence your upbringing? Mary: Yes. Susan: Did this influence the way your parents raised you? Mary: Yes. Susan: And affected your schooling? Mary: It did. Susan: Tell us how. Mary: Because they brought with them the German ways. Oh. And while it wasn't too marked difference they—but they were very class conscious, and so as you grew up there you were kind of classed—that what street you were living on—whether you lived on this side or that side of the tracks, if you mingled with this class or that class. And if you got in that class, you never got out of it no matter how successful you were. You were always considered that class. In school as you grew up, you were just kind of, ah, classed in the poorer class or the better class and it stayed that way. I went to school and I liked it. I liked school very much, but it seemed pretty hard. We didn't have—we didn't have any playgrounds. We were always kept off the grass. Many times we were blown and reproved and scolded if we got on the grass. We had no recess, we had morning and afternoon session, hurried home at noon and right back. We had no half terms or two terms in the year. It was a whole year. Mine were nine months work, solid work, and when examinations time came in the spring, we had nine months work to review for our examinations. We had very little vacation. Work—our school opened in September and by Memorial Day, we were out. We didn't go after that. I went to the high school, finished the first year and attended the second year until I was ready for my examinations. My father was ill and I had to help out in taking care of him. I was not at home, at that time. I was living with a lady as a companion, going to school, so I went home and helped take care of him and I got back with my lessons. The principal said, “You pass; take your examinations. If you pass in three studies, I'll put you over in the junior class,” but I knew he meant harder study and the doctor had just told me that I was studying too hard, that I should not try to finish high school. So I figured I had better not try. So I dropped out. I couldn't take up any work—I wasn't strong enough, but I did have a friend that was living, working in Atlantic City. When I was eighteen and she was doing work among girls who would go down to Atlantic City expecting to pick up work almost overnight, then be stranded, needed a home, needed advice, needed protection and so there were reading and restrooms for these girls and, but the doors had to always be open. So this friend of mine who was working there who was a graduate nurse asked me to go down and work with her, which was very interesting work. No salary promised, but all my needs were supplied and I had a very interesting life which I enjoyed so much. While there the lady who was the national president of this Florence Crittenton Association came there to look over the work in Atlantic City. She met me. She liked me. She liked my work and gave me a scholarship to go to their training school in—in Washington, D.C. So without any money (ha) I started and I found my way down there alone, not being used to traveling, but I—I found my way and began my work there. They claimed that it was a year’s work crowded into six months. It was a specializing on obstetrical nursing but it included general lectures on general nursing, children’s diseases, ethics of nursing and two Bible studies. We just had day and night duties and many times I was on duty more than a half of that time because I had to fill out for a nurse to be off one day a week, so I got very tired, but the lectures that I received and the and the practical work which we jumped into immediately, instead of cleaning floors and so on as they did in those days, I did crowd in quite a little ah training. I think I was just naturally…I, I liked nursing, and so after I came home I didn't start nursing but people kept asking and I gradually worked into practical nursing in private homes. What? Susan: Then you came to—talk about when you came to Binghamton and started raising your family, and what were things like then. Mary: I came in 1907, but I went back, and then I had a friend who wanted me to nurse her when she was expecting her third baby. I came then; I was on the case, and when the doctor came he was asking some questions and he wanted to be sure, how did I know this or that, and I showed my chart and he said, “Oh, I can give you work most any time.” From that I went—I stayed on and kept working, and I got more calls than I could fill. I, I worked at that about four years and a half. I met my future husband and we got married when I was 34. Susan: What neighborhood was this in, Mary? At the time, here in Binghamton? Where did you live at that time? Mary: At West Windsor— Susan: Oh. Mary: —with this friend. They had a grocery store, and instead of resting when I would go off a case, I would go up there. I worked in the house, I worked in the store, and the man who owned the store was Treasurer of the Telephone Company. Had the books, so I would catch up on the books, so I never got a great deal of rest. Susan: Tell us about when you were here in Binghamton. Mary: Then when I got married I first went to Vestal for a few years but then we moved back to—we moved to Binghamton. That was, oh, about ‘25—1925. My hou—my life was my home life. Susan: Your home was your life. Mary: Yes, I didn't want to work, a doctor begged me to do work for him, but I said I was—I wanted my home life. I enjoyed it. I was happy. Of course, those days we were living comfortably. Susan: Your husband was in business here in Binghamton? Your husband was in business? Mary: Yes, he was…well, a carpenter. At first he was working—he had worked for E-J a good many years, but he was gifted. He was a carpenter and he went into business for himself, so he was building homes, and of course during the Depression he was doing a great deal of repair work because they we were glad of any kind of work during the Depression. Susan: Can you tell us anything about the change in the city from the time you first came as against now? Did they have the trolley cars when you were here? Mary: Yes, they had trolley cars and I can remember when they last—they made the last trips. They draped some of the trolleys with crepe and that was the last trip that they made when the buses came. Oh. I…the War - the First and Second War - they didn't affect me a great deal. I was working at nursing during the First World War. The Second World War, of course my husband didn't have to go. My stepson didn't have to go. He didn't pass the physical and my son didn't get—he wasn't old enough to go until the last end, so that he enlisted twice but he wasn't in—a—he didn't get overseas. Susan: Now, I know that you’re not very much up on the Feminist Movement, but can you tell us anything about the Suffragette Movement in your days? When you were growing up? Mary: No, I didn't seem to get into contact with that. I think it was because I was so satisfied with my home life, and I thought that being a housewife and a mother was just about the height of happiness, and I thought to be a mother, to be able to be queen of your own house and home, you had to learn how to cook well. You had to learn how to sew. You had to learn how to take care of the children when they were sick. I thought it was very challenging and I liked it. I think I would not trade for any—ah—outside interests, if I just could have…be queen in my own home. Susan: You were telling me the other day about some of your experiences when your mother sent you to the dry goods store. Could you describe one and a little trip that you made to the store so that people will have some idea? Mary: Yes. Susan: And your experience with that little…at? Mary: The dry goods stores. They—they sold a great many things, of course. All kinds of yard goods on the first floor. On the second floor they had furniture and furnishings for the home. Window shades, curtains and things like that. The people did a great deal of sewing in those days and one day we came home from school. Mother had been to this store and when we came into the house she said, “Girls, I want you to go up to—up to Allcott’s,” that was the name of the dry goods store. She said, “They have something there that's very interesting,” and she tried to describe it. We couldn't imagine. We went up—we went into the back of the store on the first floor. And there they had a gramophone, with the records and a great big horn and the sounds coming out of this horn were unbelievable. We couldn't imagine where they came from. Some of the kids said, “Oh it must be down in the basement coming up some way,” and that was my first experience with the gramophone, and of course those were the days before radio and those were the days before many things. We had no refrigeration, electric refrigeration. They had cut out, they would cut the ice from the river during the winter months. It seemed we had very cold weather at that time. Then they would pack this ice in sawdust in buildings and would sell it during the summer. It was always amazing to me how that ice would stay from winter until summer and still not melt away. Those who could afford it, the ice wagon drawn by horses came through every day. You could buy a 25 block piece or 50, but most of the people depended on their cellars. We didn't call them basements - they were cellars with dirt floors, and perhaps because of the underground waters or streams, they kept cool. We kept our milk and butter and things down in the cellar. No, there was no heat in there, just our canned goods. Everybody canned because you couldn't get fresh fruits and vegetables. You either had them canned or you buried them and they buried cabbages, carrots, parsnips and so on—and would dig them out and we canned fruit and preserved a great many. We had to get along from one season to another that way. Fire engines were drawn by horses too, and I'd like to tell you a story. After they, the fire engines did not need horses anymore, they, somebody who owned a great big wagon or, we didn't call them trucks, would haul coal. They were heavy which needed two horses, one of the owners bought two fire horses to draw the—this wagon of coal and it, I heard that if they would hear a little gong ring, they would run. Just why they started this day I don't know. I was sitting, looking out the window where an alley came up into a dead end, not actually a dead end but a jog, and they were coming right straight for my window, and I knew they were coming too rapidly to make the turn and got up and ran to the far end of the room and held my face, waiting for the crash, when they made the turn it would hit our house but I didn't hear it—so—I went out. They did make the turn by coming up the sidewalk, and one horse’s shoe mark was left on the step but they made the turn, went down about half a block, turned into Main Street and stopped at a fire hydrant. But—I went out rather shaky. A doctor from the corner came up and looked over to see what they had done. He said, “They left a shoe mark right on your step; if you had your door open they'd have walked right in.” [chuckles] But our coal was delivered that way, just like the ice. It went down the chute in the cellar. We didn't have gas. We had, we had to cook on a cook stove, but they had—many of the houses had what they call a chimney corner instead of a fireplace. It was a chimney corner that you could shove your cook stove or range inside, do your cooking and a little—it was a little—it was ah, er…awkward. But you could do it, and then afterwards close the doors and that heat would stay. It was not…you wouldn't need to bear the heat from the stove. Sometimes, they had a little summer kitchen they could move into. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Keeney Subject The topic of the resource Keeney, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Mechanicsburg (Pa.); Pennsylvania Dutch; Nurses -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Dry goods store Description An account of the resource Mary Keeney talks about her early life in York County and Mechanicsburg of Southern PA with her family. She speaks of the influence in the town of the Pennsylvania Dutch people, who were from Germany and brought many German ways and traditions to the town. She also describes her childhood experiences, such as delivery of goods, the dry goods store and how they preserved their food. She received a scholarship to attend the <a href="http://www.florencecrittenton.org/content/">Florence Crittenton Assoc</a>. and began training as a nurse. Later she moved to Binghamton, NY, married and retired from nursing. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 37 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keeney, Mary ; Dobandi, Susan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1977-12-16 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 30:22 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/756555be9fe142ef8a5ab43065ad3508.mp3 e51b373fded5afc08371db916a889524 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Shaughnessy, Mary Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1978-01-24 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 32:48 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56019">Interview with Mary Shaughnessy</a> Subject LCSH Shaughnessy, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cigar industry; Endicott-Johnson Corporation -- Employees; Nurses -- Interviews; Tuberculosis; Hull Grummond; St. Mary's Church; Irish; Wilson Memorial Hospital Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mary Shaughnessy Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of interview: 24 January 1978 [Note: Telephone rings in middle of interview, and Mrs Shaughnessys' sister, Mrs. Winifred Walsh of same address, enters room and is included in conversation and hereafter referred to in this transcription as Winnie.] Dan: Ah Mary will you relate to me your life and working experiences in the community starting with the early days on Henry Street? Mary: Yes. Dan: OK. Mary: Is it on? Dan: Yes, you go right ahead. Mary: Oh I was born at 208 Henry Street. It was an Irish settlement and ah most almost all girls that were around my age went into the cigar factory around there and ah we made we would get a $5.00 gold piece for our pay—we made around $5.00 a week and it was usually given in a gold piece and ah of course we walked to work and we walked back because there weren’t any cars then. Dan: What cigar factory was it? Mary: It was Hull Grummond. Dan: Hull Grummond. Mary: Corner of Water and Henry. Dan: And you say you were paid $5.00 a week in a gold piece? Mary: Around that amount—a little change maybe we had besides that. Dan: Yeah, what was your job in the— Mary: Rolling, setting the wrapper around the cigar. Dan: OK. Mary: By hand—no machines. Dan: And this was you're paid so much a week or were you— Mary: No, they counted how many cigars we done. Dan: In other words it was piecework. Mary: Yeah, piecework, that’s right. Dan: OK so in other words this $5.00 a week in a gold piece they gave you that and whatever change over and above that, that you made in the piecework. Mary: If I remember it, that was the way it was. Dan: Uh huh, how were the conditions there, the working conditions? Mary: Well they were good. We had ah they were nice people to work for. Some of them were from originally from Binghamton and some came with the company from out of town. Dan: And you say you were how old when you started to work there, Mary?  Mary: Ah about 14. Dan: 14—OK. Mary: Well I worked just a little while at on Wall Street—they had a factory there but then we went to Hull Grummond later. Dan: Was this one on Water Street also Hull Grummond? Mary: No that wasn't.  Dan: Another factory. Mary: That was another factory. They were mostly from out of town—the bosses were. Dan: And you worked there for how long—just a year—Hull Grummond? Mary: Probably 2 years. Dan: 2 years OK and you were a roller. Mary: Yes. Dan: And ah you ah you don't know how the tobacco industry started up here do you? Mary: How it was started? Dan: Yeah. Mary: No I wouldn’t know that. Just that we were glad that there was a place come to town that we could work. The only other work there would be was working in a home and you lived in with the people but ah I never I had gone in and helped sometimes in a great while but someone who needed help. Dan: OK—now after you left Hull Grummond, where did you go Mary? Mary: I went to Endicott Johnson shoe factory with the CFJ building—Charles F. Johnson building. Dan: And what did you do there? Mary: Heeling er ah putting ah heel lining in the shoe by hand. Dan: Uh huh—OK—now how long did you work there? Mary: Ah well probably I think about a year and a half or so. Dan: A year and a half OK and from there what did you do? Mary: Well I was home for a while—my husband was ill—he had tuberculosis. Dan: Now you say you were 14 when you went to work in the cigar factory and you worked there 2 years—that would make you 16 right? Mary: Yeah. Dan: And then a year and a half at EJ? Mary: Yeah. Dan: That would make you 17 ½.  Mary: How long—I was 24 when I got married. Dan: Oh you were 24 when you got married. Mary: Yeah Dan: I see. Mary: We went together of course. Dan: Oh but you said you had to leave EJ because your husband was ill. Mary: Yeah and he worked there too. Dan: He worked there too. Mary: Uh huh. Dan: So you must have worked at EJ more than a year and a half though, Mary. Mary: Yeah I think around that Haha. Dan: Yeah because if you got married when you were 24— Mary: Yeah almost 25, I think. Dan: Almost 25, yeah OK—so you left there when your husband got ill. Mary: Ah I left EJ and went in the mountains to be near my husband and took a job at the hospital and just helped out there. Dan: What, what mountains were they? Mary: Well, in the line of nursing but not, not too much so because I wasn't trained but I did help out and he said that he hoped I could be a nurse and of course I always remembered it. [Phone rings] Dan: Will Winnie get that? Mary: Yeah. Dan: Go ahead Mary. [Phone rings again] Mary: Winnie. Winnie: I’ll get it. [Phone rings again] Dan: Now, you were there how long in the mountains—how long was he sick? Mary: Oh he ah let’s see he was sick about he was first he went to Chenango Bridge he was 18 months up there in the TB Hospital and then he went to ah—well he worked for EJ, so we went to an EJ place they had in the mountains—not way up in the mountains—at the foothills of the Adirondacks and I went up there and worked until he died. I came home the day that he died that evening. I came home the next morning. Dan: Then you weren’t married too long, Mary. Mary: Oh no and we didn't live together too much because he was in the hospital a lot. Dan: Yeah, so how old were you when he died. Mary: Ah, let’s see oh around 30. Dan: Around 30. Then what did you do Mary? Mary: I went back to school and studied and went back to school. I went to East Jr. and took some subjects there that gave me credit and ah everybody was very nice and ah and ah let’s see I went to Buffalo for a short time. Dan: Why don’t we turn this off? [Recorder] Mary: Yeah. Dan: Now Mary you said you went to East Junior. Mary: Yeah. Dan: Finish school? Mary: What? Dan: Finish school? Mary: Well I went ah I had—Winnie, Winnie, don't talk. [Winnie enters room] Dan: That’s all right, that’s all right, that’s OK. That’s all right—now that’s all right. Winnie: Did you want me? Dan: Oh sure, sure. Mary: You’re registered on here [Tape Recorder]. Dan: That’s all right, that’s OK. That’s all right—it makes it more interesting. Mary: I ah remember. Dan: East Junior is only ah East Junior High School is only about a year—that you went there. Mary: Oh I studied subjects from Central but I didn’t go there, I studied them privately and took the examination. Dan: What examination was this? Mary: Well ah History I think was one. I went to night school for a while I can't tell you how long and ah. Dan: Now is this in preparation for your becoming a nurse Mary? Mary: Well I suppose yes. Winnie: Had to get the credits. Mary: I wanted to get credits. Dan: Yeah, how far had you gone to school when you went toward—at when you first went to work? Mary: When I went in training? Dan: No, no, when you first went to work, you know at 14, when you first went to work at 14. Mary: Yeah. Dan: How far had you progressed in school at that time? Mary: Oh to the 7th. Dan: 7th grade? Mary: Because you had to go to another building to the 8th grade see—down on Washington Street where the police used to be, remember? Dan: Police, police station? Mary: Police station on Washington. Winnie: It used to be Washington Street school. Dan: Oh Washington Street school, yeah, yeah, a little before my time (Chuckle). Yeah so OK, so then by going to night school, East Junior and Central, you got more credits. Mary: Well you only had to have a year then but it changed considerably. Dan: A year, a year outside of high school. Mary: Ah a year of high school. Well you could get your ah credits for whatever way you got them, if you passed and received them from Albany you know you had a year’s credits. Dan: In other words your training, th schooling— Mary: Then I trained for two and a half years. Dan: Oh you trained in a hospital. Mary: In Wilson Memorial. Dan: For two and a half years. Mary: And graduated there. Dan: And graduated in their nursing class, I see. In what year was that Mary? Mary: 1931 Dan: 1931 Ok and what did you do? Mary: Private duty for a while between Lourdes and City Hospital and Wilson wherever a patient might ask for a nurse and ah we put our names down and they'd call us if they wanted us. Mostly at Wilson and ah then I went from there to Psychiatries on No. Winnie: You went to Windus’ first. Mary: I went to Windus’ I went took care of a private patient and ah I was with him 8 years. With him and his wife of course. Dan: What was his name? Mary: I lived right in with them. Dan: What was the name Mary? Mary: Windus. Dan: Windus. Mary. Very well known around here. Dan: How do you spell that? Mary: W-I-N-D-U-S. Dan: W-I-N-D-U-S. Windus, OK what address was that do you remember, Mary? Mary: Well they owned a home on Chenango Street. Dan: Chenango Street. Winnie : On Helen Street. Mary: Win, not them, no. Winnie: Allen Street. Mary: Allen Street in Johnson City. Dan: Allen Street in Johnson City and you were with them 8 years and then you went to where—to psychiatric. Mary: Yes, I think so—well I went to medical upstairs. Winnie: She had trouble with her hands—couldn’t use the back rub. She got eczema on her hands. Dan: So where was this medical upstairs—where? Winnie: On Clinton Street. Dan: Oh the annex you're talking about. The Wilson Memorial Hospital. Mary: Yeah, I worked over there. Dan: That, that psychiatric—oh I see. Mary: Yeah. Dan: And how long did you work there, Mary? Mary: Oh I can't remember—I retired from there. Winnie: ‘61 I think. Mary: Must have been. Dan: ‘61, so you were over there quite a few years—must have been over there about over 20 years then. Mary: No it wasn't that long. Dan: It wasn’t that long. Winnie: Probably about 8 or 10 I think don't you? 8 or 10. Mary: I worked in two different, I worked on medical over there. They had medical and psychiatric. I worked on medical for quite a while and ah we used to they used to send patients up on the Hill you know up to he State Hospital and I used to take them up in the ambulance then. Dan: Could you give me an idea of the typical day in nursing back when you first started Mary so we could compare it to the present day methods? Mary: You mean of how— Dan: Nursing, you know like the medical profession has progressed quite a bit since the early days since when you know you graduated. Mary: Yeah. Dan: I was wondering if you could give me a capsulized— Mary: I remember with the paperwork today. Dan: Pardon? Mary: There’s an awful lot of paperwork today. Dan: A lot of paperwork today. Mary: Oh yes on account of this— Winnie: Insurance. Mary: You know Social Security and everything - it’s a lot different. Dan: Now outside of the paperwork, how did it differ? Mary: Well not too much. Winnie: Well when the patients left you had to do the beds. Mary: Of course some of the nurses that I worked with had worked at Wilson when they had to go downstairs and take care of the fire at night—that long ago see if the furnace was going. Dan: Oh was that right? Mary: Which that doesn't happen today. Dan: And that was what kind of heat—was it coal? Mary: Oh I imagine so, yes it was coal. Dan: Didn't they have a superintendent to take care of that? Mary: Well maybe it was the night he was off—I don't know. Winnie: It was just a house then. Mary: I wasn't there then—that was before my time. Dan: Before your time. Mary: That was in the old wooden building which is gone now. Dan: Yeah, but more of your time was taken up as far as patient, nurse to patient relationship. Mary: Yes, much more time with the patient than there is I think today. Dan: Today they have nurses’ aides and etc. to do the— Mary: No they didn't and you had to do a lot of ah keep the utility rooms cleaned and all that, that you, a lot of things that have changed today. Dan: Now how many were in your family Mary—how many brothers and sisters? Mary: Oh there was 6 children in all—one was born dead. Dan: One was stillborn. Mary: Ah there’s 5. Dan: 5 children—you said you had to go to work at 14, did your father and mother the ah did your father die at an early age? Mary: No he was 84. Dan: He was 84. Mary: 83. Winnie: He was sick a lot. Dan: He was sick a lot so that would account for your having to go to work at an early age. Winnie: Yeah, but you went to Pine Street School, grade school before you went. Mary: It was Pine Street Grade School where Pine Haven is or Pine Haven. Dan: That’s where you started in school? Mary: Oh yes, I started in there. Dan: And went to the 7th grade, is that right? Mary: I left in the 7th grade. I don't think I quite finished it—I don't remember too well. I think that ah it was the 7th—that’s all they had there. Dan: Anything about the neighborhood life or your family life at that time ah Mary that ah would be of interest? Winnie: Well was mostly Irish on Henry Street then. Dan: Mostly Irish Winnie. Mary: Beautiful flowers and ah yards. They kept their yards up very nice—lovely. Dan: About what year was this ah Mary? Mary: About what year? Dan: Yeah. Mary: Oh dear. Winnie: 14 take 14 from her age 14. Mary: I think so. Dan: 14 from what? Winnie: 86. Dan: 14 from 86 would be 72 yeah so your dad died when he was 84— Mary: 83. Dan: 83 uh huh and did your Mother live after or did she predecease him? Winnie: She died in ‘25. Dan: She died in 1925. Mary: By that time the rest of the children went to work and my sister was very good to my mother and she went to EJ and she was there when they gave the big bonus and she saved that money and they built a home on Oliver Street later. Dan: Now going back to Hull Grummond, you say you worked there about a year and a half, is that right? Mary: I think about that. Winnie: I don't remember. Mary: No—she was awful young then. Dan: You were employed as a roller on a piecework basis. Ah Mary, do you know of anybody else that’s living today that worked in the cigar factory? Winnie: Fannie, Fannie the German woman. Mary: Who? Winnie: Fannie. Mary: Oh yeah. That’s a girl over in the hospital now—she isn't a girl anymore but she's a German—she came from Germany and ah I don't know her last name now—when she married of course, she has a grown husband. Winnie: Is it Winkler? Mary: Huh? Winnie: Is it Wlinkler? Mary: I don't think it’s Winkler—I'm not sure but anyway she was ah about my age and she ah is still living and ah oh— Winnie: Mabel is still living. Mary: Mabel, yeah, Mabel Fry lives in Ohio, Cincinnati, Ohio. I have been to see her different times. She's ah she was my age and she worked in Barnes and Smith, which was another cigar factory by local people. Dan: Yeah, but you don't know why they went out of business, do you Mary? Winnie: I think cigarettes were, don't you? Dan: Cigarettes—well I heard that the Union—they tried to unionize it. Mary: Well yes I think that did have something to do with it. Dan: Why did you go from Hull Grummond to EJ Mary—was it an increase in salary or something? Winnie: Yes there was more money from the cigar factory to the shoe factory. Mary: Huh? Winnie: From the cigar factory to the shoe factory there was more money. Mary: Oh yes, yes that’s right. Dan: In other words what prompted you to change jobs? Mary: Yes, yes. Dan: Yeah OK and you met your husband when you were there. Mary: Oh I, he was in our neighborhood—I knew him when I was in the lower grades in school. Dan: He worked in EJ too? Mary: Yes he did. Dan: OK, then you were only married a year and a half when he got sick. Winnie: He was sick 5 years. Mary: He was sick 5 years about that I think. Winnie: He died at 33. Dan: Anything else Mary that you can think of that would be of interest at all? You mentioned in your class at Wilson ah there were some Griffin girls, the Griffin girls. Who were some of your classmates at Wilson? Mary: Ah. Dan: That took training—went into training with you. Mary: Oh there was quite a few then. Winnie: They were also were younger. Mary: They were a lot younger than me you know. Dan: Yeah. Mary: Yeah ah Tom McAvoy’s wife she was she sat next to me in class and ah then she took up anesthesia and she was an anesthetist when she married. Winnie: Dr. Occhino’s wife was in your class. Dan: What year was this class here—1930? Mary: 1931. Dan: 1931 and how old were you when you graduated from this class, Mary? Mary: About 36 wasn’t I or 37? Winnie: I think you were about that. Mary: I went in and I didn't quite have credits enough and I had to go back and get more credits. That’s when I took some subjects at Central High School—I can’t think of that teacher’s name. Dan: But you only needed to qualify to go into training a year of high school? Mary: That’s right. Dan: Is that right? You had a year of high school and then you went right in the hospital for 2 ½ years in training—right. Mary: Tender, loving care. Dan: Tender, loving care and then you were awarded your certificate or whatever your license to register—a Registered Nurse, right? Mary: Yeah. Dan: Anything, any one of your patients very famous at all in the community that you nursed? Winnie: Well there were some ministers. Mary: Huh? Winnie: Didn’t you take care of some ministers? Mary: Ah who? Winnie: Any of the ministers in Johnson City. Mary: Oh yeah, Mr. ah Noah. Winnie: You were working on the floor then. Mary: Noah I know him very well only he worked in the—he was in and out of the hospital a lot—he was a friend of mine is all. Mr. ah an Episcopal minister. Winnie: You took care of Leonard Steed’s wife’s mother. Mary: You know Edith Steed? Dan: I’ve heard of her. Winnie: The boys that are doctors. Dan: Yeah, yeah, Actually the one that stands out would be this Windus. Mary: Yes, Mr. Windus. Dan: Mr. Windus who lived on Allen Street in Johnson City. Winnie: Do you tell him he was President of the Bank, Mary? Mary: He was Vice-Pres—when his brother died, I think he was President. Dan: Mr. Windus was—he was Vice Pres. Mary: They started the bank down there. Winnie: Workers’ Trust—Vice-Pres. Dan: Vice-Pres of Workers’ Trust. Mary: They started the bank down there, they started down in Hallstead and had a bank up there Hallstead or Great Bend and they were from around ah I went through their town one time—can’t think of the name of it. Winnie: Well you know the Behan house on Riverside Drive? Mary: He owned that but he didn’t want to live in it. Dan: He’d rather be in Johnson City. Mary: He owned that beautiful, that beautiful home in Hillcrest. That’s where we were. Winnie: Romy Haskell’s home, the big white home up there. Dan: Huh. Mary: That’s where she was sick so long. Dan: Yeah. Mary: But I didn’t take care of her there. I didn’t take care of her at all, but she had nurses around the clock for 16 years. Dan: Is that right and you went to St. Mary’s Church, Mary? Mary: Well I don’t go there now. Dan: No I know you don’t go there now but did at one time. Mary: Yes. Dan: On Henry Street but ah things have changed quite a bit now. Winnie: Well when we lived on the East side we still stayed with St. Mary’s. Dan: Still went to St. Mary’s, yeah, kind of get used to it you know. Winnie: Yeah I know. Mary: I ah could tell you something amusing about that. They called it Old St. Mary’s. Dan: Is that right? Mary: So I got up one night at a meeting and I said, “Well I don't like to say this but ah it is not Old St. Mary’s. I was baptized in Old St. Mary’s on Chenango Street—a skating rink that was made into a Church on Sunday—they brought the altar in and it was across from where St. Paul's is now and ah you walked up and carried the baby or the godmother did and the godfather and ah walked back. They thought nothing of walking and ah that’s where I was baptized and that was the first St. Mary’s Church. Dan: That was right across from where St. Paul’s is now? Mary: Across the road. Dan: What was it—a wooden building? Mary: They took it down long ago. Winnie: I think it was a garage and they had a fire or something. Mary: Yeah. Dan: So in other words they carried the all the the altar appointments up there and ah had the Sunday Mass there before they built St. Mary’s? Mary: These priests don't even know that I don't think because they were young men. Dan: This was prior to—let’s see the cornerstone on St. Mary’s Chuch I think is around 1890 something ‘92—this would be prior to that wouldn't it? Winnie: Just before that. Dan: Just before that. Winnie: You were born in ‘91. Mary: Dick was one of the first babies baptized in St. Mary’s. Winnie: John and you were baptized up there. Mary: Father Hughes called him “Richard the Third.” Dan: Father Who? Mary: Father Hughes. Dan: “Richard the Third.” Mary: He called my brother “Richard the Third.” Dan: Oh, Richard the Third. Winnie: He was named after his uncle. Dan: Was Father Hughes the first Pastor of St. Mary’s? I think he was. Winnie: When I was here— Mary: I think so, Father Drummond. There was a Father Drummond Pastor but I think he was after. Dan: Who was the priest that used to take a and have Mass across from St. Paul’s before St. Mary’s was built? Mary: I don't know that. Dan: But you were baptized in that church. Mary: I was baptized in that church. Dan: And that church was across from St. Paul’s. Mary: It was a church on Sunday and a skating rink all week. Dan: Must have been quite wide open wasn't it? Mary: Haha there’s a lot of changes. Dan: A lot of changes I guess so. Mary: Now they've got their second viaduct. Dan: True, true. St. Mary’s has changed too. Winnie: Oh I don't know anybody—about 2 or J people. Dan: Well is there anything you would like to add Mary that you think would be of interest at all? Mary: Dear, I'll probably remember them after you go. Dan: Well if you do, call me up and I’ll be glad to come back. Mary: Haha, all in all my memory is pretty good you know considering I'm 86. Dan: 86. Mary: But I’m very active although I fall. Dan: Well that’s wonderful, it’s remarkable I mean years ago ah you know starting out at $5.00 a week you know was big money.  Mary: Yeah. Dan: Big money—you know kids today they think, “Oh Gee it's nothing.” Well Mary I’ll play this back for you and if you should think of anything that you'd like to add, why we can just turn it on again—how will that be? Mary: OK that’s good. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Shaughnessy Subject The topic of the resource Shaughnessy, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cigar industry; Endicott-Johnson Corporation -- Employees; Nurses -- Interviews; Tuberculosis; Hull Grummond; St. Mary's Church; Irish; Wilson Memorial Hospital Description An account of the resource Mary Shaughnessy talks about her birth and upbringing on Henry St. in Binghamton, NY, in an Irish settlementan Irish settlement area. She speaks of working at the Hull Grummond cigar factory and later working for the Endicott Johnson shoe factory.  She recounts completing the nursing program at <a href="http://www.uhs.net/locations/uhs-wilson-medical-center/">Wilson Memorial Hospital</a> to become a registered nurse, as well as her training there. She then discusses working occasionally as a private duty nurse, and what a typical day was like in nursing, compared to the present day. She recalls her experiences with her religion and church as well. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 54 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Shaughnessy, Mary ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-24 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 32:48 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a026c848f6e3bd2213ebc627be84019c.mp3 8beb37ece1ef40e96c92d26f61034fd2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sovik, Mary Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Caganek, Anna Date of Interview 1978-04-10 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:00 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56026">Interview with Mary Sovik</a> Subject LCSH Sovik, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Babysitters -- Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mary Sovik Interviewed by: Anna Caganek Date of interview: 10 April 1978 Mary: My father was born in Austria-Hungary and he came to America in 1891, and my mother didn’t hear from him for quite a while, so she packed up, just with the clothes she had on left my two brothers over there, came to Jamaica, Long Island in 1894, because he wasn’t sending her, any money, and she wondered, if he was dead or alive. So then she said, “I’m not going back no more.” It took her too long to come here, thirteen days on the boat, no clothes only just, what, she had on so in 1895, I was born. My father had been in the bread line that’s why he didn’t hear, that’s why she didn’t hear from, him. Cleveland was president at that time and there was a depression, and my father worked in Jamaica, Queens, Long Island, on a farm, where they were raising vegetables, to take to New York. They called it a Truck Farm. So then a year later, so then my brothers came from Austria-Hungary, one was 20 years older than me, and the other was 19 years old. The reason they were so much older than I because two children died, in Europe, while my father was in America, they had the cholera. That’s what they died from and then my brothers came and they heard someone crying, my mother was giving me something to eat, they heard a baby crying. They said, “Who is that?” My mother said, “You got a little sister, we forget to tell you.” So that was me. Well then we lived in Queens, my brothers worked on the farm, too, carrots, cabbage and all that, it was [illegible] farming, so then we, moved to Rockland Lake, and my brothers worked as dynamiters, making that route one from Florida to Boston route, and they worked, there as dynamiters, then we moved from there to Johnston, NY, when I was 8 years old, and I went to school in Johnstown, I went there ‘til 1909 and I quit at the age of 14 years and went to work. In the glove factory, I worked at 10 cents an hour for 8 hours a day, so putting thumbs in and tying them with the other part of the glove. And I could hardly wait ‘til I would be 16 years old so I could work 10 hours a day, dollar a day. So then I went on piecework and I worked on a machine. First I pulled ends, you call it end pulling, it’s that silk, in the back of the glove 3 cents a dozen. Then I went there three years later, and I thought well I’m going, to go to that factory, where I used to work, and I went, to look for the employers and I asked, “How much do you get a dozen?” It was about 5 years later, they were getting 40 cents a dozen for the same work the same work that I was getting 3 cents a dozen. And I was making 25 dollars a month. So then I went to Europe in 1913 and I went to, on a boar the name was the Kaiser Wilhelm, it was called the Kaiser Wilhelm, with a cousin, that lived in Gloversville, I went to her parents with her and our boat costs us 58 dollars one way, just on the boat. She came up to the factory, she just came to say goodbye, to me. She says, “Mary I’m going to Europe, my mother wants me to come home. Why don’t you come with me?” “Wait, I’ll go home and ask my mother if I can go,” and I went home, and my mother said, “What are you coming home so early?” I said, “Netty’s going to Europe. Can I go with her?” She says, “Are you crazy? Going over all that water.” So we went to Cloversville, we got the tickets it costs us 58 dollars on the boat one way, and we went to Bremen, and we rode, on the train to Pressburg, and then I went to Malacky, where my aunt lived and we went to visit different aunts. I went to St., Svatý Mikuláš, St. Nicholas, and I was in Marie, Tal, Sastin, and I went, to Prague, my aunt took me there to see the Sokol’s drill and we were there until November. I came back to Johnstown, NY, just in time for Dance for Thanksgiving, for Lent, before Lent. I was in Vienna also. When I was in Johnstown after I got married, in 1915, July 3, 1915 and lived in Johnstown and then we finally moved, to Saratoga, we were there for 2 years in Saratoga, moved back to, Johnstown again then in 1919 we moved to Binghamton and I’ve been here since. I go to Johnstown every year, I drive. I’ve been going to Johnstown every year, and I’ve traveled, quite, a bit, I’ve been to Panama City, Florida from Binghamton. My daughter was married there, her husband was a flyer, Paul Vanek. He was Lieutenant, and Paul Vanek was a flyer, I went to Queens, Long Island, when I was single yet, in 1914 to visit my godmother in Jamaica, and Queens, Long Island, was a regular farm.  I went to Sunny Side Long Island, and I went to the World’s Fair, in Yonkers and my godmother, did lived in Queens, but it was just a farm, and I’ve been to Miami, Florida six times, I have two cousins there, Miami Beach, six times. I have a niece and a nephew there, Hollywood Florida, Pompano Beach, Fort Lauderdale my niece’s husband’s son lived there. New York City 15 times. I went to Fort Lauderdale with the Senior Citizens, we went to Disney World and they took us all over, on that, boat that goes along the canal there we went to dinner and to outside dinner, and to vaudeville, show, and we also went to Key West. Also to Miami Beach on a trip, they took us by bus. Clearwater, we went to Kobak Tree for dinner and I’ve been to Auriesville, I used to go to Auriesville in 1904, it was only 7 miles from Johnstown. I went there on a horse and wagon (ah) I saw a priest out there, he was, from England, and I got talking to him, “I used to come here in 1904-1907. To the old church, in a wagon with the fringe on top.” (Oh) And he said he was from Ireland, oh with the Surrey with the fringe on top, so I seen him there, several times, when I go to Auriesville, and I’ve been there ten times, since I live in Binghamton. When I go to Johnson I always go to Auriesville and I went to Poughkeepsie, to friends to a wedding, and San Diego in California went, to visit my grandson and wife, and my little great-granddaughter was born, she was two months old when I went there, they took me to, Mexico. I went to Tijuana, Mexico, Joya, and I went to Chicago 13 times, my daughter lived at Mt. Prospect, Illinois, now she lives in, Guilford, Connecticut, and I’ve been there 8 times, Guilford. My grandson lived there now he lives at East Hartford, now I have to go, to East Hartford, troy, NY. Bowlers with the E.J.A.A. Bowlers. I was a bowler, Buffalo, NY with the Bowlers we went Niagara Falls with the Bowling Team with the E.J.A.A. used to go to Schenectady, then in. My brother lived in Schenectady, then in second, Secondaga, Lake 1975, but I used to go there in 1912, when it was Secondaga Park roller skating, and swimming, when we used to wear, stockings and bloomers for bathing. I’ve been to Rochester 4 times, my grandson graduated, from University, of Rochester then he graduated from Strong Memorial, he’s a doctor, there now he got married and I was there Christmas visiting them, then some in Auburn the one that used to live in San Diego so now I, have two great-grandchildren. I’ve been there several times, then, went to Nashville, Tennessee, with the Senior Citizens in 1976. Montreal, Canada, in 1975 with the Senior Citizens. Now I’m, retired when I was 63 years old that was in 1958, retired from E.J. And I started to babysit, I lived in Hillcrest in a trailer, trailer park for 9 years, Tingley’s. I babysay for 50 cents an hour, by the hour, afternoon and evenings. So then Mrs. Kresge asked me Martha Kresge, if I would, babysit a week or two days and night while they went to Germany, to sell Volkswagens. So I said sure, they lived at Chenango Forks. So I started babysitting, people heard about me, so then I, started babysit move right in and took care of the children, while, people went on vacations. I sat for doctors, lawyers, dentists, and IBM workers all kinds of businessmen, I even sat for Charlie Johnson’s, grandson, and I also sat for Charlie Johnson when they went to down south South Carolina, someplace the daughter lived there someplace, they went to soo, some Dupont (they went to visit Dupont) and I sat for several doctors, the Horowitzes all the Dr. Demtrak and Dr. Ansell, Dr. Goodman, eye doctor also pediatrician, Dr. Bronstein, Dr. Kondrad Stearns. I couldn’t mention how many, I could be, must be a hundred, Dr. Baron, must be 250 families that I have sat for, so now at 82 I am going to relax now. And I’m going to enjoy myself with the Senior Citizens, I go to Senior Citizens for dinner, I belong to Greenman’s Center, I belong to, the Johnson City Nutrition Center at the High School, I belong, to the, First Ward Senior Citizens, I go there for [illegible], to the meetings, and we enjoy ourselves very much. Anna: Could you think of anything else? Mary: I have two daughters, one lives in Binghamton then I, have another daughter lives in Guilford, Connecticut. I have six grandsons the oldest one is 33 and the youngest one is, will be one Sweet Sixteen in March and the other one will be 16 in, June. Two wonderful grandsons, they are very good to me and I have, one niece in Johnson City, and that’s my son in law is General Manager, in, Dunn McCarthy, he started there when he was a young boy, pushing boxes, around, pushing racks around and finally worked on heels, worked at heels, and then he went in the service, Waco, Texas, he was a flyer, he went, to Panama City, and the great-grandson was born there. And he came back, he came back and went, back on heels again at, Dunn McCarthy, and they finally asked him, “Would you like to be a foreman?” so he was a foreman. Then they sent him back to Auburn Superintendent. Then they sent him back to Binghamton to be General Manager. Now he’s up in Auburn back and forth working. My other son in law the one that lived in Connecticut, he was working for Charlie Bloomer in Mt. Prospect. As a research chemist. Then they transferred him to Guilford, Connecticut, been there now in research they had 3 sons, each one one of my, daughters had 3 songs, I finally di get a granddaughter, a great-granddaughter which I was waiting for because I had two girls, and I wanted some granddaughters, and they closed Dunn McCarthy, yes he is, working in Auburn now. He worked in Dunn McCarthy for 37 years. He came back he goes there on Monday and comes back on Friday. She works in a bank. I go with every week with the Senior Citizens. I go to Johnson City play Bingo, we play for pennies 25 games 2 cents a, game and sometimes I’m lucky and sometimes I’m not, lately I’m lucky and I’ve had so many pennies to carry my pocketbook drags, on the floor it is fun. And the girls are very nice. They also play Bingo, but we like to, play for the pennies. I belong to St. Stan’s. St. Stanislav on Prospect, Street. I used to belong to St. James when my girls were little and then I, we did go to St. Cyril’s and then when I moved to Hillcrest, I went to, St. Katherine’s about 9 years I lived in Hillcrest then I was, when I came home to live, my daughter’s mother in law they went to St. Stan’s. So my daughter said, “Mother why don’t you go to St. Stan’s? You can take Mom and Dad to church,” they used to ride with me to church. And I’ve been going to St. Stan’s for 17 years. Eddie’s the daughter, from Connecticut. They go to St. Cyril’s. The Vaneks do. Anna: Thank you Mrs. Sovik. Mary: Some of the people I babysat. Dr. Marvin, Dr. Sivers, Dr. Horney, Dr. Nortons, Epstein, Dr. Bronsky, Dr. Klima Grandel, Dr. Gould, Dr. Goodman eye and baby doctor, Dr. Koslawsky, Dr. Amtrak, Margolas, Kurst, Bateglino, Hogopian, Norman Rudin, The Parrish Sanford, Olums, Dr. Natala, Dr. Baron. Dr. Shute, Dr. Sife, Dr. Stevens, Dr. Weiss, Dr. Kenneth Smith, Conrad Stemis, Koffmans, the Monks, the Emmas, Dr. Posture, Dr. R.E. Nell, Dr. Stevens, the Andersons Norwich, Hestor, lawyer, Dr. Graff and Dr. Roff, the Levenes, Dr. Steinbough, Dr. Brown, Dr. Monserette, Dr. Cleary, Dr. Davidge, Dr. Doyle, Dr. Vreede, Dr. Moriarty, Dr. Pemberton, Dr. Hayden, Dr. Cox, Dr. Divovan. Dr. Donovan, the Hotchkiss and Dave Lewis. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Sovik Subject The topic of the resource Sovik, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Babysitters -- Interviews Description An account of the resource Mary Sovik was born in Jamaica, Queens Long Island, NY. She discusses working in a glove factory, the many places she travelled to, and her work in Endicott Johnson up until her retirement. After retirement she states she became a babysitter for doctors, lawyers, and businessmen in Binghamton, NY. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 56 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b56409015714911749ba120e2aa2d232.jpg fe5ff929932a844cea43a533a7fcec86 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/76af0b02baee1160100cd7f3946f2877.mp3 956b3c45e55e7aece41328059426a1c8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Thom Date of Interview 2011-06-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 120:26 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of Ms. magazine. She wrote her first book about the history of MS. MAGAZINE entitled INSIDE MS.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of Ms. Magazine. She wrote her first book about the history of Ms. Magazine, entitled Inside Ms.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Anti-War movement; Civil Rights Movement; Social Action Committee; Feminist issues; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Counterculture; Women's Rights Movement; Take Back The Night."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Anti-War movement; Civil Rights Movement; Social Action Committee; Feminist issues; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Counterculture; Women's Rights Movement; Take Back The Night. Subject LCSH Feminists; Editors; Ms. magazine/Sarah Lazin books; Thom, Mary--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Mary Thom Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 27 June 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two. All right, we are going to get going here. MT (00:00:10): Okay. SM (00:00:13): And I will be checking these. It is probably be better to have these here. MT (00:00:18): [inaudible] whatever you want. SM (00:00:22): Yeah, because your voice just [inaudible] just speak up and I will continue to borrow your pen here. Yeah, first question I like to ask everyone is what were your personal growing up years like huh? Who were the people that inspired you? Who were your role models? How did you become who you are of the people? Because especially on women's issues and so forth, and a writer. Where did Mary Tom come from? MT (00:00:50): Literally, I was born in Cleveland and grew up in Akron, Ohio. And my family was basically Ohio conservative, which at that point in the (19)50s was not social conservatism as much as tapped economic, that kind of thing. So it is interesting that both my sister and I turned out to have completely different politics than our parents, but I cannot think politics were a big thing in the family. It was around, and certain social welfare was an issue. And my father, especially, I think, was a very kind of open guy and had friends from all kinds of different parts of society. And that was influential. After grade school, we went to a private day school, and I had teachers there that were very influential, and especially a history teacher, Mrs. Shepherd, who was extraordinary. I think she influenced me to become... I studied history as an undergraduate and also a Columbia and graduate school, so that was her influence. But I did not really realize that I talked differently from many of my classmates until the years that I was studying with her, which was sort of my junior and senior year of high school. And one of the things she did is she brought the film on HUAC, what was it? SM (00:02:57): Oh, house on air. MT (00:02:57): Yeah, but what was the film called? I cannot remember. It was a very famous film where they sort of exposed what HUAC was doing in terms of... And half the class sort of was horrified because it made them think that we were being invaded by Russians, and the other half the class was horrified at HUAC. So it was this sort of balancing thing. So I do not even think I had realized until then that there was this sort of bedrock conservative and a communist. SM (00:03:37): Was that (19)50s or late (19)50s? MT (00:03:39): Yeah, I mean, I graduated high school in (19)62, so that must have been (19)60, (19)61, (19)62. And then another in incident that happened is, because this is very sort of Lily White Ohio community is a black girl, came to one of the picnics where we recruit new students. And some of my people who I thought of as my best friends were horrified that there would be a black girl, which I just could not understand. I mean, I had never been brought up that way at all. So it was sort of an interesting... And then the other thing that was happening is that we were following the anti-war movement, there were marches against, I guess it was not war so much as anti-nuke because it was Skunk in (19)90 and that sort of thing. And there were marches in Cleveland, and I knew people that had been doing that. And also one of the biggest influences, I think, was that there was a Shakespeare festival every summer in and around Cleveland and Akron. And the guy who was head of the McMillan Theater in Princeton brought this festival. And other friends of mine hung out there. And we did tasks, we sold tickets. Some worked on the lighting for maybe three years in succession. And at the same time, I went to summer school with some of the kids that were... At that time, going to summer school the first time that I knowingly had friends who were brought up in Democratic family and families that were part of the Democratic Party. So that was sort of very opening my mind to things. And then I was also involved in folk music, so I read, Sing Out. Oh, yeah. And my mother was horrified because she said, "we are going to get on a list" which I thought was stupid, but probably was not. So there are all these sort of conflicting things. SM (00:06:22): You went off to Columbia? MT (00:06:23): No, I went to Bryn Mawr undergraduate. SM (00:06:25): You went Bryn Mawr, and then what did you do in graduate school? MT (00:06:29): I went to Columbia in European history. SM (00:06:31): What was it like? What were the college environments? I mean, both schools at the time that you were there? MT (00:06:38): Okay, Bryn Mawr was sort of- SM (00:06:41): You can keep going. I shall keep checking. MT (00:06:48): No, that is okay. Bryn Mawr was on the verge of becoming radicalized when I was there. I graduated in (19)66. Kathy Dedan was a friend of mine, I mean she was a year ahead of me. She was more of a mentor, I suppose, than a friend. And she had brought a very influential event to campus, which I think it is called the Second American Revolution, where a bunch of kids from the south, from Tulu and different schools and people in the Civil Rights movement came to campus. And I cannot remember if it was my freshman or sophomore year. SM (00:07:27): That is pretty big, because- MT (00:07:31): It was enormous, exactly. So I got involved in the Civil Rights Movement. And in fact, with my friend Jenny Kerr, who's who was from Indiana, we started something called the Social Action Committee at Bryn Mawr. And I think it was sort of more or less under the auspices of Kathy and some of her friends who I believe sort of loved the idea of these Middle Western kids as opposed to people from radical families organizing. So that was an organ for... We raised money for Snick to send down. We did something called Fast for Freedom, where we convinced the administration to take the money from a fast and let us get it to give it to activist, which did not raise much money, but it was a vehicle to... And we worked on students’ rights issues, which were really feminist issues because of Bryn Mawr. I mean things like that we were not allowed to stay out late and things like that. I mean, we altered some of those rules, those paternalistic rules. And then the other thing we did, which I found a little problematic, but was probably harmless, is that we organized the Maids and Porters, Bryn Mawr was like a plantation at that point, although very- SM (00:09:17): (19)62, (196)3, (196)4 and (196)6? MT (00:09:28): Young, mostly black people took care of being maid some porters. And they lived in these small rooms, and basically, their grievances were that they could not have any kind of normal life because they could not have men in your rooms and things like that. So that was interesting. I mean, what we did is talk to a lot of my new young women in this situation and got them excited about making demands. The reason it was problematic for me is that this was sort of the junior and senior year. And then I realized I was going off, and then here, I had sort of stirred up this- SM (00:10:19): Can of worms and... MT (00:10:22): So what we did, I mean, I think we acted responsibly. We got involved some labor people from Philadelphia who came in and were counseling to these people. So I think it was fine, but I realized at that point that I was mobilizing and doing- SM (00:10:46): See those kinds of things were not really happening in the (19)50s on just about any campus. I think there was sensitivity on campuses toward what was going on in the South New York, students were cognizant, but even the African American students in the South, the lunch counters was like (19)60, (19)61 in that particular time frame. So you are in the kind of what I call the forerunners of this feeling, correct me if I am wrong, that you view that your voice really did count and that you wanted to be change agents for the betterment of society. MT (00:11:21): Absolutely and- SM (00:11:22): I mean of a development of self-esteem, that you were somebody, even when you were a college student, that your voice needed to be heard. MT (00:11:31): Oh, yeah. I mean, think that is absolutely true, and I think Bryn Mawr was a place to encourage that, even when we were being nettling up to- SM (00:11:42): Off to Columbia next, and of course, we all know what happened 60 years- MT (00:11:45): First, let me just say, the other thing I did is I went down to... Bryn Mawr would not allow exchanges because they were so snotty, they did not want the students to go off any place else. But we did arrange three week exchange over spring break. So I went down to Tulu, and this was in (19)64 maybe. I am trying to remember, maybe 65. And that was very influential as a group of us from Haverford and from Bryn Mawr. We were also involved in antiwar movement and things like that. And I had also been involved in Philadelphia. And for the summer when the Shona and Channey and Goodman were killed, I was in New York working with Core. So I had become quite involved at that point. But the trip to Tougaloo was particularly amazing because we did not do much. I mean, we just sort of hung out with the kids. But you drove around Jackson in an integrated car, especially with license plates from a northern state. And there was a tank in the town, basically. I mean, it was a police vehicle that was armored. And nothing happened, but you had had the sense of what had happened and could happen. SM (00:13:19): How many were in your group that went south and you were there for six weeks? MT (00:13:22): Weeks? No, no, not six weeks, less than that. Okay, two or three. Yes, I said they were not willing to let us off for that long. I guess there might have been 12. SM (00:13:36): How did you get there? Just by car? MT (00:13:39): Yeah, it was just organized it fairly informally. And we had made contact with these two little kids from the thing that Kathy had organized years before. And it kept up some of the contacts. SM (00:13:54): Did the kids and the people there tell you what it was like to live in this? MT (00:14:00): Oh, yeah, they did. I know from my friend John Edgar, who was at Miz later with me, she was at Millsaps at the time, which is a white college in Jackson. And she did things like organized to get the Tulu kids into the Millsaps Library. And the tool they used was that Millsaps had the federal deposit branch of whatever, the library, the books. And so that they argued that they had to let the Tougaloo kids come into the library and use it. So there was a lot of that kind of stuff going on and Tougaloo was at the heart of it, various radical... I cannot remember their names now, but professors, yeah, were there. So it was a great place to learn about what- SM (00:14:58): Did you fear for your life when you were there? MT (00:15:00): No, but I just realized, I mean, you had a heightened sensibility. I mean, you sort of feared for your life. I mean, you sort of knew what had happened to people. I mean, we were in the middle of Jackson. We were not out on some country roads, but certainly the kids told us, if you were driving around, be careful. No, it is amazing. SM (00:15:28): Especially when the Shona, Cheney and Goodman was killed. And I talked to a couple people that were actually being trained and they were heading down after and there was a fear, but they still wanted to do it because- MT (00:15:44): But mostly what I... I mean, absolutely. But mostly what I remember about that was hanging out with the two little kids and drinking deer and discussing music. I mean... SM (00:15:56): But you were expanding your horizons. You have seen the world as it really was not the way mom and dad may have. MT (00:16:05): That is right, much to my parents feared dismay, although they always were supportive of both my sister and me. SM (00:16:17): The second question I have is, in your own words, what was it like being a woman in the (19)50s? MT (00:16:29): In the (19)50s? SM (00:16:30): Well, I would, saying a high school, a female going to high school from (19)58 to (19)62, to be in college from (19)62 to (19)66. Things started changing in the late (19)60s. But what was it like being women in the (19)50s and (19)60s? Any gains? I have a lot of notes here. I have read- MT (00:16:54): No-no, that is right. SM (00:16:57): [inaudible] The era of was this was a stay at home. This was a number when most women were staying. MT (00:17:02): Certainly my mother was of that, and she stayed at home. She was very happy to be staying at home. She did a lot of volunteer work because that would advance her family. I mean well, both because she was a good volunteer but I mean, that was part of what her job was, was to represent us to the community. So that was sort of a given but on the other hand, there I was at an all-girl school. Well, we had a couple boys in our class through middle school, but through high school. And that made a big difference in terms of what we thought of ourselves intellectually. I mean, we never had that kind of intimidation that other kids had. SM (00:17:51): Did you go to an all-girls high school too? Okay. MT (00:17:54): Yeah. SM (00:17:54): So you come from a little different [inaudible] MT (00:17:56): Yeah. I went to all girls high school. We certainly had contact with the local boys schools and went to proms. And that was always sort of not something that I felt comfortable. I mean, I felt comfortable enough, but it was not something that... But then it did not matter that much because my life was in this other kind of situation. So I had boyfriends, but they were not like be all of my existence. And then I went Bryn Mawr. And that was kind of a great atmosphere because we had our own institution. But I took classes at Haverford, and certainly the organizing had to do with kids from Haverford. One of my boyfriends was actually... I do not know if I want you to use this, but I will tell you anyway, was Ben Davis and his father was part of the Center for Constitutional Rights, one of the founders. SM (00:19:12): Oh? MT (00:19:17): And that is how I got to know Kathy Bine. They were Steve Smith, which was her boyfriend, and Ben were roommates. SM (00:19:25): Now, Kathy is, correct me, I am wrong. Did she die in the- MT (00:19:30): No, she went to prison. SM (00:19:32): Yeah, she was in prison. MT (00:19:32): And she is out. Now, she is out. She has been out for about 10 years, I think. But she had a kid that then the Jennifer... It was a [inaudible] what is her name? Brought up her son. SM (00:19:50): I think she used to have her boyfriend was the one that married Bernadine Dorn. MT (00:19:55): Not her boyfriend, but they were friends. But Bernadine Dorn and-and that guy whose name escaped me was brought up her kid. SM (00:20:03): Oh, wow. MT (00:20:04): Kathy's child. SM (00:20:05): Huh. MT (00:20:07): But I did not have anything much to do with her except I heard about them when I was at Columbia. I had friends who were in living in.... They had just been living in Chicago and had been in Chicago during the Democratic doing. And Kathy and some other people had been sort of camping out of their... SM (00:20:34): I think there is a book out on them, on that family that- MT (00:20:38): Yeah, Susan Brody wrote a book on them, and Susan was at Bryn Mawr a few years before me. But anyway, I mean that Kathy had obviously gone through these sort of transforming things, partly in Cleveland and then partly later. And I knew kind of what it was, because I left Columbia in (19)68 during the uprising. And at that point, I had a boyfriend and I came home every evening. So I was not there doing some of the demonstrations, but I was there enough to be voting. We were also involved in getting more rights for graduate students and things like that. And I saw what would happen to doing the demonstrations but what people did once you threw stone through the window of the Dean's office. I mean, that was sort of the middle class kids throwing that off and becoming agents and radicalized. And it was not something that I felt that... Maybe I made those decisions afterwards. That is what was happening. SM (00:22:03): Your background is one again, where high school and college, women had a voice. Women were important, in a lot of society. A lot of women did not have that feeling. And one of the criticisms of the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement has been that women were placed in secondary roles, not all but most. And they got tired of the way men treated them. And that was one of the thrusts of the women's movement. They split away from the anti-war civil rights. And even people I have talked to admit that those two movements were just, were that way. MT (00:22:49): Oh, they were. Absolutely. SM (00:22:50): Did you think that is one of the main reasons why the second wave of the women's- MT (00:22:54): Oh, yeah. I think absolutely. I mean, I experienced in slightly different way, because I was not in groups that resisted my voice as a woman since in the New review that I was organizing, that did not happen. But I did when feminism began, when it dawned on me, although as I said, I have been doing proto feminist organizing in terms of students’ rights and maids’ rights and things like that, I realized that this was a way that I could experience and influence change through my own situation as opposed to working with other oppression. So that is what was important to me. It sort of transferred all those things that I felt in terms of the Civil rights movement and the anti-war movement in a way, because in a way, I was not going to get directed. SM (00:24:04): I know there has been some books recently written saying that women were very powerful in the Civil rights movement. And that even list of the names, there is books and written about women of the South that were important and so forth. But overall, I think even within the Civil Rights movement, it was a male dominated movement. And that is why I would have loved to talk to Bratt Scott King to- MT (00:24:35): Or Fannie Lou Hamer. I mean, yeah. And Fannie Lou was shifting ahead somewhat. SM (00:24:48): Dorky Hyde was another one. MT (00:24:49): Yeah, Dorky Hyde was their driver. But Fannie Lou was one of the founders of the National Women's Political Caucus. I mean this was... If we go forward here now, we are going forward. I was at Columbia. I left graduate school. I left during the strike because I realized we all went on strike. And I also realized at that point, I did not want to teach. It was very hard at Columbia because the classes were... I do not know when you went through graduate school, but the classes were... SM (00:25:23): I started at (19)72. MT (00:25:25): Well, that is a little beyond, but in (19)68, our class was like 200 or 104 or something. And everybody knew all those people were not going to get jobs, but it was bloated, partly because you could still get out of the draft in graduate school. So graduate school was sort of shocked me because you had to jockey for position and politic to get the attention of professors. And so in any case, I just left. I left in (19)68, I went on strike and did not come back, is what basically happened. Now, did you get your PhD or? No, okay. And I had a 20-page paper that I did not turn in, so I did not get a master's either. But I mean, it is that sort of thing. Who cares? Although later, I think the Masters would have helped. So I left, and then I worked for something called Fax on file for three years, which is a news reference service. I sort of got into journalism that way. Excuse me. And then the magazine started, I had gone off, my boyfriend at the time was teaching in Renovo, and we had gone to stay in France for half a year or something. So I was living there, and that is the time when Miz started. And when I came back, my friend Joanne, who might mention who was the one in Tulu in the [inaudible] had been Gloria. She had gone down to work for Evers campaign, not Neicker but his brother, Charles. And so had met Gloria that way through friends of hers. Pat Darian was her friend. So Gloria had come back. She had had leave Mississippi, basically because her family put too much pressure on her. She just could not deal with it. So she came back and was Gloria's assistant at the time the magazine started. So when I came back from having left Facts on File and been in France, the magazine was starting and Joanne said, come in, because I do not want to do research, and that is what they are going to make me do. So you come in and do that so. SM (00:28:06): What year was this? 19...? MT (00:28:08): I am sorry, excuse me. The magazine's preview, who came out at the end of (19)71 and Volume one, number one came out in July of (19)72. So it was that spring, it was February of (19)72 that I came back and started working for Miz. So I do not know when I was... what Train we were on when I was thinking, oh, the caucus was starting, and the caucus also started that year at (19)71. And so Fannie, that is when I met, and I had gone to Washington briefly after I had worked with Paxon File and worked as a volunteer for the caucus, the National Women's Political Caucus. And that is what I met Fannie Lou. I mean, no, I had seen her before because I had been at the demonstrations in... Where was it? Atlantic City, the Freedom Democratic Party Demonstrations. SM (00:29:20): Yes, (19)64 that was. Right? (19)68. MT (00:29:29): (19)68. SM (00:29:29): No, that was (19)64, because Johnson was not... He did not run the- MT (00:29:30): It was (19)64, right and (19)68 was in Chicago. But I have Pan Lou had been speaking, I mean, I had seen her as an organizer, but I had not met her. And she was part of the caucus finally. So yes, there were these wonderfully strong women who were involved in the Civil Rights movement. And some of them merged into the women's movement in a way that I do not think... I mean, people talk about the women's movement as being white and middle class. Well, it certainly was not on that side of it, on the political. I think what has happened is that because the caucus was involved in politics, you immediately had this impetus to be more inclusive in terms of race and things like that so. And Gloria was always very careful too, about when she went out to speak, she always had a black woman with her as a co-speaker. So that was a kind of influential. SM (00:30:38): How did Gloria Steinem come to this? She had been a Playboy Bunny or once- MT (00:30:45): Well, no, she had done that as a story. She had gone underground as a Playboy Bunny and to write a story for... I do not think it was for New York, although she worked for New York Magazine at that point. She had gotten radicalized by the, which I think many people did, by the abortion movement in New York State. New York State decriminalized abortion, I think before a lot of other places. And she had already been sort of involved in terms of... Well, she had been a supporter, Caesar Chavez and the farm workers, but she covered the debates in law Albany about abortion, which were completely outrageous because there were not any women who were testifying about the need to decriminalize these. So there were speak outs that were organized and things like that. And that was really what she was doing. And then she started writing about women's issues for New York. And then people wanted the magazine of the... There was talk about doing a feminist magazine. And so she had meetings in her house with a lot of different editors and different writers and different activists. And that is how Miz began. SM (00:32:26): And that is her brainchild on there. MT (00:32:29): Pretty much. There were other people, Susan Brown Miller had been working at one. SM (00:32:32): Oh, I interviewed her. MT (00:32:35): She had been working at... Well, there had been a sit-in at Ladies Home Journal that Susan had been involved in. So there were different things coming together. But yes, I mean Leddy Pilger, she had written this book called How to Make It In A Man's World, but she was involved in the start of the caucus and had been sort of becoming more feminist. And Pat Carine was editor of McCall's at this point. She had been an editor at Look, so she had sort of a hard news... Not hard news, but a featuring news background as well as women's... And she was very interested. So she and Gloria sort of got together to be the two... SM (00:33:25): When you had just finished your undergraduate years and you were heading off to grad school, (19)66, that was also the year that the Feminine Mystique was written by- MT (00:33:36): Was it (19)66 or did she do it? No, I guess it was, yeah. SM (00:33:44): I have got down here. (19)66 was an important year because in 66, the Feminist Mystique was written and. MT (00:33:50): Feminine Mystique, yeah. SM (00:33:56): Yeah, and I also know that some of the women that were involved in the formation of the National Organization for Women were people like Paul Murray and- SM (00:34:03): Organization for women. MT (00:34:03): Right. SM (00:34:03): People like Pauli Murray and Shirley Chisholm. Well, Shirley was not involved in National Organization for Women, I do not think, but Pauli Murray certainly was and so was Aileen Hernandez, who you could still talk to, although you are done with your interviews, but- Aileen who? MT (00:34:19): Hernandez, H-E-R-N-E... I do not know. I think she sort of... I interviewed her for the [inaudible] Book. She was the second president of NOW, and she is a Black woman who still is an organizer in San Francisco. SM (00:34:38): Oh, wow. MT (00:34:39): So- SM (00:34:39): I have interviewed 22 people. MT (00:34:40): Yeah, I know. I can get you her email if you want. SM (00:34:46): Yeah. MT (00:34:46): Then you could just ask her some questions- SM (00:34:49): I am going to be out in San Francisco. I am done with the interviews, but I continue to have them, some people that I contacted a long time ago, or now contact- MT (00:35:01): Yeah, I think she still will. I mean, she is getting up there. SM (00:35:06): How important was that book? MT (00:35:08): To me, I did not even know about it. SM (00:35:10): Okay. You did not know about it? MT (00:35:12): No, but it was very important to a group of people who felt trapped in that role. I am a little bit younger and definitely was not trapped in that role. I mean, I certainly went through periods of domesticity, but I knew about it later. I met Betty when the caucus was forming and she was a little bit antagonistic about the magazine, about Bella and Gloria. Bella was also involved in the caucus formation, so there was a little tension there. I think Betty and Bella made peace at the end of their lives, but those are two strong personalities. SM (00:36:15): Oh, yeah. Definitely. MT (00:36:18): Barbara Jordan was very important too, to the- SM (00:36:22): Oh, yeah. MT (00:36:23): ...to the women's movement. Bella and Shirley, you can see in my book, they collaborated on childcare. It was so interesting. You should read the interviews in that book that I did with Marco Politi, who was Bella's aid. Because they just failed, there was legislation dealing with women's issues that just sailed through Congress at a great rate in the early (19)70s. SM (00:36:56): And that is due mainly to the- MT (00:37:00): Yeah, to Bella and to Shirley. I am trying to think if there are other people. There were some other congresswomen who were... SM (00:37:08): Yeah, Shirley came to our campus. I met her. I have a lot of pictures of her when she was there. MT (00:37:17): They had very strong voices. And it was a sort of... But they were stopped on some issues. The main one being that I can... Well, the RA of course, I mean, it sailed through Congress, but then it was stopped in the States, but also childcare, because Nixon vetoed it. That is I think, a very important event, because had he not vetoed that bill, it was set up to not just provide childcare for poor people, but to set a structure that would have involved middle class women as well and I am sure would have become... SM (00:37:59): Why did he veto it? Was he- MT (00:38:01): Socialist. It was communist plot. SM (00:38:01): Okay, so he was actively anti- MT (00:38:08): I mean, I do not think he believed that. I think partly, it was political. It was catering to... Maybe he did believe it. I do not know. But that is what the anti-childcare... You do not want the government bringing up your children, which of course, not what was going to happen but- SM (00:38:28): Hey, with all the criticisms they have of Richard Nixon as a president, he was much more liberal than people realized. MT (00:38:34): Well, that is right. SM (00:38:34): ...particularly on a lot of the social issues. And of course, his international firm in reaching out to China, no matter what you say, that was excellent. Some people I have interviewed have said that was only the major happenings of- MT (00:38:50): Oh, I think so. I went to- SM (00:38:52): ...and yet he destroyed it all by what he did in the- MT (00:38:56): Well, but I mean, he was also not trustworthy. Even the childcare thing proves that. SM (00:39:04): Yeah. MT (00:39:05): I went to China in 1978 with a group of journalists. It was soon enough after that, it was right after the Gang of Four fell. SM (00:39:15): Oh yes. Yeah. MT (00:39:16): So it was a really interesting period. Anyway. SM (00:39:19): What happened in the early (19)70s that created the second wave in the women's movement? MT (00:39:25): Well, there were these- SM (00:39:25): [inaudible] as a boomer- MT (00:39:25): Go ahead. SM (00:39:28): When you look at boomers, I have to preface this by saying that boomers are those more between (19)46 and (19)64. But I also include, after interviewing so many people, people that I consider having the spirit and the role modeling that many of the people between 35 and 45 have of the boomers. So really, when I say boomer, I am talking about in terms of mentality. MT (00:39:56): Right. SM (00:39:57): And time wise. Have you been pleased with the way these boomers have actually carried on the women's movement? We are today into the third wave of some... It is a two-part question. What happened in 19- MT (00:40:14): (19)70. SM (00:40:14): What happened in the early (19)70s for the second wave to start? And when and why did the third wave start in the (19)90s? Because a lot of criticism today of the third wave is kind of isolated. You do not see them out there and as visible as you saw the second wave. MT (00:40:34): Well, I mean, I would say the second wave, there were two strains, and I am sure Joe will have told you this, Freeman, because she writes about it, I think. There was a group that was organized around women's rights that basically came out of the Kennedy Commission. There was a commission that Kennedy formed on women's rights, which was a basic commission on the status of women that did a study of women's rights. And a lot of the early NOW people and WEAL, Women's Equity Action League is another important one, the people that founded NOW, some of them were commissioners or staff people on that commission. There is a woman named Catherine East who was at the Women's Bureau for years and had been involved in that commission. And she is someone who collected data forever and ever until it came to the Bush administration who had started throwing out that capacity of the labor department to produce data that supported job actions and things like that. So there was all that going on in sort of legislative women's rights angle. And then there was the group of the more radical feminists that came out of the anti-war and Civil Rights movement, who came out more of a protest movement. And Joe would consider herself part of that as Robin Morgan, all sorts of people. And that was another. And so those two groups sometimes on a couple of issues were a little antagonistic. One of the only one I remember is that there was a move to stop for sterilization among especially Latina women in New York. And some NOW people were against that, because they thought part of it was a waiting period before you could sterilize a woman. And that was too close to the limitations they were putting on abortion. So there were certain clashes. But basically there were two very strong segments that gave a sort of legal and street cred to the women's movement, that was quite strong. And that was all going on in the (19)70s. That is when [inaudible] had its heyday. And you can see from the letters that when we started publishing, people from all over the country said, "I thought I was the only person who felt this way." SM (00:43:44): It has happened many times. MT (00:43:47): Just astonishing. So there was this whole untapped reservoir feeling, which I think was organized during that time. And then what happened? I mean, I will just go on, but you can stop me and ask questions. I do not think there was, or at least I do not see it as a sort of stop and start thing. What I see is a lot of people organizing less in national groups, but in more local things or around particular issues. I mean, for instance, in the women's movement here in the United States, rape was an important issue. In England, it was more organized around domestic violence, but they were both sort of against violence against women and those cross fertilized. But people became... As opposed to in some multi-issue organization, they would start rape crisis centers, or they would start domestic violence centers, or they would work for gay rights. And then there was a whole thing where all those things were brought together in a national way, was at the Houston Conference, which was in 1977, which Bella got government funding for. SM (00:45:16): I have a book on at that conference. [inaudible] MT (00:45:26): So that is what I think happened. I think there was a lot of just people and Black women would organize, and Latina women would organize. And I mean, I think it was sort of a natural thing when people started directing their energies to more specific issues. And as far as I am concerned, it was all part of the women's movement. I that we always saw it as that. And there was the campus, a lot of women's studies was a big center. SM (00:46:07): Yeah. It is interesting. When I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly, who was one of the main people, one of the reasons why the Equal Rights Amendment did not pass, I think it was 35 states passed it, but you need 38. MT (00:46:24): Yeah. It was ridiculous. I mean, when we started [inaudible] we said it will be passed within a month or two. It will be ratified. SM (00:46:33): It was not passed in Ohio, because I remember my former boss who just passed away, who was one of the leaders of the Ohio movement, she just about cried. MT (00:46:43): I think it was ratified and then it was taken back or something, I think that is what- SM (00:46:48): I do not know. I remember the vote was... And I worked at OU at the time, and she was listening to it on the radio from Columbus. And I can remember when she came out, she broke down, because she- MT (00:46:59): Well, it was just- SM (00:46:59): ...just spent two years on it. MT (00:47:01): It was shocking, because it seemed so basic. And as I said, it had gone through, the only hitch of going through Congress was the labor movement, who did not want to give up protections. I mean the shorter hours for women and things like that. But once that was worked through- SM (00:47:23): So the criticisms of the women's movement today is that people try to compare it to the way it was in the (19)70s where- MT (00:47:32): It was a national- SM (00:47:36): ...there were protests. They were unified with many other groups. It could be the anti-war groups, the civil rights groups, the gay and lesbian groups, the environmental groups. There seem to be- MT (00:47:47): More culture. SM (00:47:48): ...in protest, a unity amongst all these groups. Now, today, even when I am talking to lesbian leaders, it is isolated. We do not see the groups together. They are into their own thing. They are not working together. I am not sure they might be working together, as someone said in Congress, but they are certainly not being visible together. MT (00:48:14): No, they are not visible in the same way. They are not visible in the same way as a sort of protest movement. Maybe that is because... Partly it is because they are so successful in changing minds, at least in terms of women's movement. But there are certainly... I am trying to think of where... There is a lot, I mean, there are other kinds of campus actions. Well, throughout this whole period, there are things like Take Back the Night marches, which is something that certainly still motivates younger feminists. SM (00:49:00): And what is the purpose of that? We have it every year on our campus [inaudible]. But what is it, these people are reading this. A lot of people believe that it is because those people were murdered up in Canada. MT (00:49:15): No, it was not really that. Anyway- SM (00:49:17): A lot of people at Westchester University thinks that is why it happened. So they are misinformed. MT (00:49:21): Well, I mean, I do not connect it. Certainly that was a big issue, but mostly it was because of predatory people on campuses that were... Take Back the Night was, women should feel safe walking through their own campus. I mean, there was a whole issues about acquaintance rape that were developed during the (19)70s and (19)80s. And so I mean, there was more of that impetus than the Canada one, I think. SM (00:50:15): Yeah. And another big issue was that pill that college students were- MT (00:50:20): Yeah, the date rape. SM (00:50:21): Yeah, date rape. MT (00:50:23): Pill. SM (00:50:23): And they would knock a female out. And that was big in Westchester, because two guys did it and they were caught. I mean, they were nice guys. Did not think they were not very ice. MT (00:50:37): Yeah, I know. SM (00:50:41): Their parents found out about their two sons and boy they were gone. MT (00:50:46): So there are those issues that I think motivate younger women. And I think the abortion issue is one that is now things that younger women took for granted are now coming into play again. SM (00:51:04): One female leader told me in an interview, and I will not mention the name, she said, she will visit the National Organization for Women Office now. And all she will see, as far as the literature is concerned, is literature on abortion, literature on aids, literature on was the third one, reproductive rights or something like that. And a lot of the issues centering on equal pay, being hired like a man is high. The issues that were many times front and center in the women's movement, do not seem to be like- MT (00:51:48): Well, I do not think that that is exactly true. Not with that particular issue. Because of the woman who brought suit, Congress had to overturn the Supreme Court ruling on, why am I forgetting her name? The equal pay thing. And then now there is currently a push to, there is an equal pay law that is in Congress now. That is a big thing. So I think that issue, but I think probably that is always been true of now that they have been more on sort of legalistic and abortion front than they have been active and effective on... SM (00:52:32): And this same person was very critical of an organization, because they did not even deal with the issue of pornography. MT (00:52:42): No. SM (00:52:43): They let it ride. I mean, there is nothing, that you would only ever see them... MT (00:52:47): But yeah, that was not there. Again, there were anti porn feminist groups. There was a clash between free speech feminists and anti porn feminists that we certainly documented in [inaudible]. There was a cover that said one woman's pornography is another woman's erotica. I mean, yeah, I mean that there was active kinds of... SM (00:53:18): See, another thing that came out too, you are dealing with different ethnic groups. Because I think [inaudible] has done a great job in that area, because I had looked at the literature and I see people of color from the get go. MT (00:53:30): Absolutely. But that is not seen as- SM (00:53:32): Yeah. But genetic colon, I think in one of the early folks, sister president, she talked about the pressures within her own African American community. When someone would ask her, this is when she is president of Stone, would ask her, well, what cause are you really identified with, are you really one of us, which is being the African American issues of racism? Or are you a feminist? Are you a African American first or a feminist first? And then there was a whole issue of the gay and lesbian. Where do you fall on that? Because she had dealt with some issues with the school on that. So she felt conflicted over the first two. And from her peers. Is that a pretty common pressure? MT (00:54:19): I think it is. Although how ridiculous is that? I mean, the core issue are I mean, they should be the tightest coalition. So that exists. And they have been in various times. But I certainly think that Genetical and many other Black women have felt that pressure. And it is one of the reasons that Gloria was so tried to be so careful about having two people out there. But certainly the women's movement has been criticized often as being a Lilly white movement. And as I said, it just was not. SM (00:55:01): When I first started this project, and I mentioned doing a dual book on the Boomer generation, that is about white men, is not it? I have perceptions of boomers as being white men and white women, but not, and no, it is everybody. And so I try, Native American, you name it. MT (00:55:21): You talked to LaDonna too, did not you? SM (00:55:21): I have talked to LaDonna. MT (00:55:21): So that is good. SM (00:55:21): Unbelievable. What a great- MT (00:55:21): And she was one of the founders of the caucus too. SM (00:55:31): Yeah. In fact, she is coming to, she is fighting cancer, and I probably should not review that, but I interviewed her and depends on her health will depend upon her coming back east this summer, because they have started the [inaudible] Center and I think at Indiana, no, not Indiana, California, University of Pennsylvania. And I said, if she comes back, I want to take her to lunch. But I have not heard. But what a great person. MT (00:56:05): Well, and also the Cherokee woman, why cannot I remember her? SM (00:56:10): You mean [inaudible]? MT (00:56:12): No. I will think of her name. SM (00:56:15): Wilma Manquel? MT (00:56:16): Wilma. Yeah, Wilma. I mean, she was a very good friend of Gloria's and lovely woman. And Ladonna's daughter is an organizer. SM (00:56:28): Yes. And I talked to her husband, Fred Harris too. I mean, even though they are divorced, they are still close as anything. What began, this might be a little repetitive, but what began as a battle for equal pay, an equal status of all women in American life, in the area of jobs going to college, sports, leadership roles, politics? Why did the following issues become so forceful when now is organized? And [inaudible] Magazine came out and I talk about the abortion rights and the Roby Wade of (19)73 and the ERA of (19)74, which I mentioned earlier, then reproductive rights and certainly all the isms, were very important to now. And certainly lesbian rights became important as well, gay rights. Why did those take center stage? MT (00:57:31): Well, I think they took center stage, because they were easy to grasp. I think when the caucus was founded, one of the arguments that Bella and Gloria had with Betty is whether to include an anti-violence plank, an anti-war plank? And Gloria and Bella won that argument. So part of the organizing foundation of the caucus was, which had always been a strong part of women's movement since Women's Strike for Peace, was that kind of group. But I think the sort of more simple, or even symbolic, if you think of it that way, of the ERA, were easy to organize. And abortion touched everyone's life. I mean, people remembered, if you are my age, many people went for back alley abortions. So that was really a strong issue. But then I think the issues of domestic violence and violence against women in pornography and those issues emerged as something that the women's movement was deeply concerned about. And then international feminism was at the end of the, basically, I mean it had been around all the time, but basically at the end of the (19)80s became very important. And then- SM (00:59:11): Robin Warren wrote a book on that. MT (00:59:13): Robin did, and Bella was very involved in international families. And Robin worked, I mean, she did, sisterhood was global, which was the anthology. And then that brought in development issues and environmental issues worldwide for women. And that is a very strong strain of women's movement today. SM (00:59:43): When you look at all these, the progression movement women have gone through in the, I would say (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, (19)90s, and right through today, and think of the women who were the mothers of the generation, the boomer generation, 17 million from 1946 after the war ended, to 1960, early (19)60s. MT (01:00:07): Excuse me. SM (01:00:08): These issues, many of them probably were not even being discussed by them, meant like Phyllis Schlafly says, "What is wrong with raising children and being fulfilled as a mother?" I mean, that was the way it was back then. And she says, feels her greatest accomplishment was her kids and being there for her husband, despite all of her accomplishments as a writer, as a lawyer, as she will go back to those two things. MT (01:00:33): Yeah, that is ridiculous. SM (01:00:35): Yeah. But you see, she said she speaks for a lot of women. But so you have the conflict where you read a book and say that most women were not fulfilled in the (19)50s, but they just could not express it. And they raised the kids, but they were very unhappy and probably would have divorced, but they kept together. MT (01:00:57): No, I do not think most women would say that. I do not think that is true. I think a lot of women were, my mother certainly never felt unfulfilled. And Gloria has always said that raising a human being is probably the most challenging job in the world. I mean, I think the thing is that it helps if fathers get involved too. And that is the real push. And I think it is happening. I mean, my nephew is a much different person by far than his father's generation, in terms of what he expects out of his life and the kinds of things he does in his marriage. SM (01:01:50): One of the things kids would say is the father was always away and the mom was always at home. So they were closer to the mom, obviously. MT (01:01:54): Yeah. SM (01:01:58): Because the father was away making a living. Now you see a reverse where the husband might be at home. A lot of things, a lot of changes are going on. MT (01:02:11): Yeah. SM (01:02:11): Definitely. MT (01:02:12): And that generation has completely different expectations. So I think that is very interesting. SM (01:02:18): Some say that, I always use that term some, because I have interviewed so many people, that Betty [inaudible], Gloria Steinem are mainstream feminists and they are really not radical [inaudible]. Few things here. What is the difference between a radical feminist and a mainstream feminist? Because people that are... SM (01:02:38): There you go. MT (01:02:38): Well- SM (01:02:38): Hold on. MT (01:02:38): Okay. SM (01:02:39): Let me turn this over here. And so you are doing both. I have been doing two takes halfway through first 100 and I only did one take. MT (01:03:05): Well, I do not think that is a correct analysis. I mean, I know people that have that analysis. Mostly they are academic feminists, I think. I would say that, I mean, Gloria's certainly a radical. I mean, I am less sure about Fredan. I was never that close to her. And I think it is probably not true. I mean, as I have indicated, she had to be talked into the anti-war plank. She had a problem at the beginning with having the women's movement involved with lesbian rights. So I think that was a sort of different frame of mind. But I think Gloria has always been fairly radical. Across the board, I do not think she would define herself as one thing or another, but she is open to any number of issues. So I do not see this clear divide between, I see it at the beginning as I described how they arose from any more movement and the more women's rights movement. But I do not see it going forward. I mean, I think once you get involved in the particular issues of feminism, maybe there are radical approaches and there are legal approaches. But a lot of those work together. I mean, I think it is more in sort of academic theoretical circles that you get this kind of insistence on the division and what is mainstream and what is known. There is always who is known and who is called upon and who is lesser now? SM (01:04:56): Where would you place from different era here now, because I have been from an academic environment, and I know that people have talked about it in some of our programs, not in any of my interviews, but there is a difference between mainstream and radical. And where would you place the following people, people that we grew up with and know historically, Bella, Shirley Chisholm, Molly Yard, Tricia Ireland, Eleanor Smeal, Robin Morgan, Mary Daley, who just passed away recently. Jermaine Greer, who I met six months ago. MT (01:05:41): Jermaine is a trick. I mean, she is gone. SM (01:05:46): And so then of course, Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton and... MT (01:05:48): I do not know- SM (01:05:48): And Helen Gurley Brown and Susan Brown Miller. And you have got Rebecca Walker and LaDonna Harris, Carol Gilligan and Winona Rider. MT (01:06:02): And Alice Walker. SM (01:06:05): Yeah. So there is a lot of different ones there. MT (01:06:07): But I do not know, I could try to figure out how they think of themselves or how they rose, what strain they came out of. But I mean, certainly Robin came out of a radical strain. But I cannot really define people that way. I mean, Dorothy Hyde came out of a very sort of traditional women's organization kind of place. But I think tactically things work at different times, different tactics work at different times, which is how I would approach whatever issue I was interested in. I mean, when Gloria speaks, she tries to tell her audience, do one outreaches act today. I mean, that is your form of organizing, which makes you think. But I mean, I think basically what is appropriate in terms of, and I think that although it is a sort of mainstream outcome, the idea that Bella was able to get money from Congress to put on the largest, actually the largest democratically elected conclave that there ever has been in this country, which is what the Houston Conference was, is pretty radical. I mean, it is not radical if you define radical as something other than electoral politics. And then if you look at the agenda- And then if you look at the agenda that came out at the Houston conference, it is completely inclusive. SM (01:08:14): You might even say the same thing though, the way you are describing it here is what people felt in 1848 with Elizabeth... MT (01:08:14): That is right. SM (01:08:20): Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, who believed that they were connected to the hip, when in reality they had tremendous disagreements later in life. I think they split at some juncture. MT (01:08:32): I am not sure. I do not know that they split. SM (01:08:36): I forget what the issue was, but there was a big one later on. MT (01:08:40): Well, there was a big issue with black women, with the race issue. Because at one point, I do not know who it was... SM (01:08:42): Frederick Douglass was very close to Elizabeth Cady Stanton. MT (01:08:42): Yeah. SM (01:08:56): And of course then Susan B. Anthony was coming from Rochester and that is where [inaudible] had the North star, the newspaper. MT (01:09:05): Yeah. SM (01:09:07): Maybe what you are saying is that we are seeing it is a different era, a different time. So how you define people is very difficult because one person's radical is another person's mainstream. MT (01:09:26): Or people can be mainstream and radical in their life. SM (01:09:31): Yeah. MT (01:09:31): Whatever. At whatever point one tactic works and another does not. SM (01:09:43): Yeah. MT (01:09:43): That is how I think of myself. I do not give myself those labels. SM (01:09:45): When you look at the women's movement, of course conservative women are, we all know Phyllis Schlafly, but a lot of people do not know others. MT (01:09:56): Well, there is Sarah Palin and... SM (01:10:01): Yeah. Well, there is Sarah Palin. The ones that I have listed here are more recent. Of course, Phyllis Schlafly, Gertrude Himmelfarb is older. Sarah Palin, Margaret Thatcher from England, Michelle Easton. MT (01:10:17): I do not know. SM (01:10:17): She does the Clare Boothe Luce Institute at Clare Boothe Luce And then of course, there is Ann... MT (01:10:23): Brockman. SM (01:10:25): Yes. Brockman. And then you got Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Laura Ingram, [inaudible] Buchanan and I cannot even read the last person. But yeah, Ms. Brockman. MT (01:10:42): It is nuts. These women are nuts. SM (01:10:44): When the women's movement looks at them. Is it like the Black caucus from Washington looking at the JC Watts and the other John who was a conservative? Is it right to eliminate a group because of their politics or a women's... MT (01:11:03): Yeah. Yeah. The reason it is right is that they are not champions of other women. And in that sense, they are not feminists. If you do not support services for women or equal pay, equal rights for women or childcare, I do not know how you can call yourself a feminist. I think Sarah Palin probably does, but as far as I am concerned, it is mislabeling. And I have to quote, going again, said, "We are never in favor of Eva Braun becoming head of state." SM (01:11:46): Yeah. MT (01:11:46): It is not a matter of gender at that point. It is a matter of outlook and interest. SM (01:12:01): And a lot of people used the black caucus in Washington as the best, especially when JC Watts was there, was very popular. MT (01:12:10): Right. SM (01:12:13): Former [inaudible] star. They would not get him the time of day because he was a conservative. And the other guy was Franks, was his name, the guy that proceeded him, he was conservative too. But that stirs some of the college... I work with college students and why not be inclusive even though they are... MT (01:12:32): Well, because their aims are different than yours. SM (01:12:34): Yeah. MT (01:12:36): That is the answer, there are people that have called themselves feminists and have been promoters of Sarah Palin but... SM (01:12:50): I got quite a few more questions and I only got 30 minutes to go here. What are the main accomplishments of the women's movement up to the third wave? And what has the third wave really done to add to the movement? And when I am dealing with college students and high school students who do not read their history, in your own words define first wave, second wave, third wave and their accomplishments. MT (01:13:22): I am not quite sure I can, but I can take a stab at some of this. I think a main accomplishment was simply put, when I graduated from college, I could not get a loan in my own name. I had to have my father sign for a Bloomingdale's card. So different pieces of legislation like equal credit legislation and things like that have been very empowering and part of that has to do with economic changes because women were more and more in the workforce. But I think that was certainly part of the women's movement. And the other thing is I think how feminists and others influenced by feminism have brought up their children. I think they are completely different expectations. As we talked about before, probably not all over the country, but between my nephew's generation and he is 30 now, is he 30? He may be older than 30. Well, in any case, he is in his 30s and generations that came before in terms of what gender roles would be. And another enormous contribution I think is the linking of international feminism. So that now... SM (01:15:04): A third wave, is not it? MT (01:15:04): Yeah. I think it came to fruition in the third wave, although I think, as I said, Bella was a big mover of that, and Robin and different people. But at the moment, I edit for the Women's Media Center. Well, you know that... SM (01:15:19): I love your website. MT (01:15:21): Oh, good. SM (01:15:22): I like your logo too. MT (01:15:23): Yeah. SM (01:15:23): Yeah. MT (01:15:25): But I just have a piece that I am going to put up based on an interview with Yanar Mohammed, who is head of a women's rights organization in Iraq. SM (01:15:36): Wow. MT (01:15:36): And we know these people. A friend of mine who also writes for me, Shazia Raki, I think her name is, is Secretary General. That is how they title them, of an international organization of parliamentarians, parliamentarians for human rights or something like that. And she is in contact with different women in parliament all over the world. And so we do the organization, Bella organized with men [inaudible], it is not as powerful as it used to be, but it is conceptually organized to promote women's development and the environment. There is this bringing together of those issues because environmental issues impact women so much more directly than men in the developing world. SM (01:17:00): There was the big conference and was it in China couple years ago? MT (01:17:04): It was a couple, being in 1995. SM (01:17:08): Yeah, that was a major... MT (01:17:10): Yeah. And that was the fourth of international conference. So that had been going on since... Mexico City was the first one. And then, oh, in Mexico City and in Europe, one in Europe and one in Africa, and then this one in Beijing, which was the culmination. SM (01:17:30): I think Hillary Clinton went to that, I think. MT (01:17:39): Hillary was there and she still has that message about women's rights, I think. SM (01:17:52): It is interesting about when people try to look at the history. If you look at 1848 Seneca Falls, and I go there every year. I took my dad there before he died, we had a great day there and... MT (01:17:53): It is beautiful for one thing. SM (01:17:57): Yeah, it is a beautiful place. And I go there just to take it all in. I go to Elizabeth Cady Stanton's home to get a feel for the history that took place in that house, which was basically the same and the furniture has gone, the sofa is still there, and the sofa that Frederick Douglass found. MT (01:18:14): Oh, wow. SM (01:18:27): You could feel, I can just feel when I was with my dad, their presence. When you look at the history from 1848 through today, we talk about first wave feminism that began at Seneca Falls. And we talk about the (19)70s, late (19)60s and (19)70s, and then the late (19)90s. But another period was around the prohibition period. MT (01:18:44): Right. The reform period. SM (01:18:46): And I do not know why they do not consider that second wave and then the (19)60s third wave. MT (01:18:52): Well, I think you could, there is a continuum. You are right. Except that there was, after the vote, I think people expected a lot more to happen. So I think the expectations were greater than what happened. And maybe that is why people cut it off. But then Eleanor Roosevelt, she was very instrumental in the commissions on the status of women in the Kennedy Commission. So I would put her as one of the... SM (01:19:30): You wrote several books, you wrote a book on Ms. Magazine, Letters to Ms. MT (01:19:31): Right. SM (01:19:41): I think it is a great book. And what did you learn from writing these books that you did not know before you started? And maybe I will add the book that you just wrote too. MT (01:19:50): Bella. SM (01:19:51): Bella. What surprised you the most when you wrote these books? Because you have a tremendous knowledge already. MT (01:19:59): Yes. I did. I think of the different... Because I did approach them, all of them actually as oral history volumes, that was not so much oral history that it was stories through letters so it was the same kind of thing. And I think what surprised me was the incredibly different ways that people come into consciousness. That is an old women's movement word, but into realizing, into the place where they start interacting with the world as feminists mostly, I have been dealing with feminists. So I think oral history is a powerful tool for that because you find out what is in peoples' background so that was surprising. When I did the Bella book, a lot of the surprising things... Well, I just found out about wonderful collaborations between Bella and Ron Dellums for instance. I had no idea and I just had a wonderful interview with Ron Dellums, who... SM (01:21:10): He is the mayor of Oakland. MT (01:21:13): This is right before he became mayor of Oakland when I interviewed him for that book. But he came into Congress the same year that Bella did. And they had this wonderful, incredibly warm relationship. But he was able to describe in this, it was just a terrific interview. SM (01:21:38): You already wrote a book, you know the experience with Bella and Mr. Dellums and of course we know about Elizabeth Cady... MT (01:21:47): Well, that is interesting. SM (01:21:50): With Douglass. The relationship between a powerful woman feminist with a feminist mind and an African American male... MT (01:21:58): Yeah. That is interesting. SM (01:21:58): Who has a sensitivity to women's issues as well, as issues of racism within his or her own community, I would think that would make a great book. MT (01:22:07): That is interesting. Well, I would like to write another book. So those things are wonderful. The other wonderful interviews I had with the Bella book, for instance, there was one with... SM (01:22:24): Chicken. Yeah. MT (01:22:24): There was one with a man who was a young lawyer with Bella. They were both entering lawyers in this law firm. And I just loved his mind because for us, he just set up the whole feeling of what law was after the second World War and labor law in particular, and the clashes that were going on and the fact that labor people had put off demands during the second World War. And then after the war was over, all this was bubbling forth. And there is another interview I had with Ireland, I cannot remember his first name. He was a journalist basically but he set up the whole sense of how things happened in the (19)50s. SM (01:23:20): Oh, wow. MT (01:23:22): And led into... So just these people with minds that could understand what was happening in social, the same thing you are trying to do, is understand what was happening in social movements. And with that book, those interviews were just astonishing to me because they would just bring in all the trains and make sense of things. SM (01:23:47): See, what comes out of this and the word 'context' comes out of everything. And I have always believed that we do not, I remember African Americans in the (19)70s saying that, "You do not know what it is like, you live in white skin. And whoever hears someone say they understand us, I doubt it. They have not lived like we do." So that is always been the subject that I am very sensitive to. And I do not believe we should be judging people, that is why context is important to understand from their, because they are the ones who live their lives. We did not live their lives. Let me check my time here. MT (01:24:17): It is just quarter after one. SM (01:24:17): Yeah. We got time, you are fine. One other thing, you have probably heard this before... MT (01:24:35): Oh. Of course, Liz. I should say, of course Liz was involved in all of this early (19)70s legislation too, which I... SM (01:24:39): Right. MT (01:24:40): But go ahead. SM (01:24:41): Yeah. And I am going to be talking to her a lot about Watergate and... MT (01:24:44): Oh, that is right. She and Barbara Jordan. SM (01:24:47): Yeah. Talked to her a lot about that. One of the things that I have heard from critics, with some of those conservatives that I mentioned is that some people say that feminists hate men. MT (01:25:03): Yeah, no. SM (01:25:07): And Ann Coulter is actually, we had her on the campus. She is actually a pretty nice person. I think she plays the game when she is on in front of a camera, but when she is behind, when you see her one-on-one, she did not even talk about that stuff. She talks about going to Cornell and it is amazing, her best friends are liberals. MT (01:25:33): Well... SM (01:25:34): Conservatives do not like her that well. They like her when she goes to the conferences and students and everything. But she has a, I know this for a fact because I have had friends in Washington and that her best friends are all liberals. And they chide her, based on the books she is writing. So anyway, let us not talk too much about her, but when you hear that, what do you... MT (01:25:57): Man hating? SM (01:25:58): Yeah. MT (01:26:00): That is always been a charge and that actually was one of the early charges that Betty had against, accused Bella and Gloria being man hating, which was ridiculous. Especially Bella, who had the sweetest, most lovely relationship with Martin that I have ever seen in terms of a married couple. Well, men were in positions of power, in terms of women's goals or in the position of being predators when it comes to issues of violence against women. But that did not mean that feminists had something against individual men or did not welcome men as partners in fighting these issues, as valuable partners in terms of some of these issues, speaking out. SM (01:27:12): It is interesting because Hugh Hefner comes up a lot in some of the conversations, and I believe he supports women's rights. MT (01:27:28): No, he supported his daughter. SM (01:27:28): Yeah. And the thing is, and he has always said that he did Playboy Magazine because it is art. It is artistic and he does not believe it is pornography and the beauty of the body and he is like an artist. And that is a conflict also within some of the people who try to understand though. And then the women, they grew up in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, they want to be looked at not just as an object, but... MT (01:27:59): Right. That is the point. And I do not think it is necessarily pornography either, but it certainly does not respect, the issue is respect. And I think Hefner, the Playboy Foundation tried to give money to all sorts of, to the ERA and to other causes. And did at some point, but to other points, women's groups sometimes rejected those. But I do not think it was a matter... I think it is a matter of respect and you take this man who treats women interchangeably, obviously. Even now, what does he have, three... SM (01:28:34): He was married. MT (01:28:38): Marry someone but there was three, you could not really... SM (01:28:42): Yeah, he got that TV show. MT (01:28:42): Right. SM (01:28:46): Yeah, they are all gone now. MT (01:28:46): Yeah. SM (01:28:49): He said he was going to marry that 25-year-old that broke off the last minute. MT (01:28:53): Whatever. You just cannot, I am sure he loves his daughter and I think he probably did have sympathy for some of these issues. But the basic thing is, I am not a big anti-porn feminist because I think sometimes they take it, the anti-porn people take it too far. But I do agree that people that are involved in pornography and involved in trafficking, mostly women are there against their will, against their economic will. Even if they... SM (01:29:42): The thing that surprises me is how many women today, young women who do pose for... MT (01:29:48): I think that... SM (01:29:49): They have no sensitivity; no knowledge of past history and they do not give a damn. MT (01:29:54): I know. But they are also, and more power to them, much more comfortable with their bodies and with their degrees of sexuality than my generation. So in a way that is all great. SM (01:30:09): Boomer women were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I mentioned that spiritually their people were older. How do Boomer women differ from Generation X and Millennial women who are connected more to the third wave than the second wave? And how important have young Boomers been activism wise since their youth in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? Now, the young people in the late (19)60s and (19)70s were coming into their own in their early 20s at the time of the women's movement beginning. And I have always tried to understand it from the well-established writers and thinkers within the women's movement, are they disappointed? In terms of the people that have followed them? And can you compare the generations that have followed, there has been two. Generation X, which at times really could not stand the older generation. MT (01:31:19): Well, 'feminism' became a bad word. But the causes, they certainly clung to the same causes, that same causes define their lives in many ways. So although 'feminism' became a dirty word at beginning in about, well, the (19)80s... SM (01:31:46): When Reagan came in. MT (01:31:46): When Reagan came in and there was a lot of conflict. I think there is a lot of, there was discomfort and certainly young people were uncomfortable being branded as feminists in part because of the charge that feminists hated men and all this stuff. SM (01:32:04): Generation [inaudible]. MT (01:32:05): Yeah, exactly. And occasionally I would go to conferences and there is the wonderful history conference that, I do not know if it is still happening, but the Berkshires conference, which happened every four years and brought together all sorts of wonderful... And I remember a panel there in, it must have been the (19)80s, where there were older academics, feminists saying, "You younger women do not know, you just take everything for granted", blah, blah, blah. And one young woman got up and said, "Is not that what you want?" Which is just a wonderful comment. And of course it is. SM (01:32:58): Yeah. MT (01:32:59): And you cannot help but think, oh, they should know what struggles we went through. But in fact, the idea that the subsequent generations take for granted what you worked for is about the best validation you could think of. SM (01:33:18): Yeah, I think that is really true today for the Millennials. Yeah. They take for granted. But this is my perception, I think they truly care. MT (01:33:28): Oh, yeah. SM (01:33:29): And I believe they are very cognizant of the women's movement. I think women in college today are, I consider them much stronger than the Generation Xers. MT (01:33:39): Before. SM (01:33:39): And I see a link between Millennials and Boomers and with respect to the fact that they want to leave a legacy and make the world better, Boomers wanted to do it sooner and oftentimes without thinking that they want to do it sooner. But Millennials want to do it later, after 40. They want to raise a family. I have done that reading of Hunter Strauss's book on the generations. MT (01:34:07): Mm-hmm. SM (01:34:08): So I look at today's generations in a very positive way. I have had negatives a long time for Generation X. MT (01:34:15): Well, I think maybe the current generation is less affected by the negative feelings about activism, feminism, about things like man hating or things like making... I do not know. I think that could well be that there is this reaction to how aggressive the earlier activists were. SM (01:34:51): We did panels on the Boomer generation and Generation X at our college for two years. And there was a tension in the room between Boomers and they were Boomer faculty members basically and the Generation X students who were the sons and daughters of Boomers. It is interesting. But today, 85 percent of all the college students are the sons and daughters of Generation X people whereas 15 percent are still Boomer kids. But back in those days, in the (19)90s, they were mostly all from the Boomers. And two things came out of it, they were tired of hearing about the nostalgia about what it was like back then. MT (01:35:35): Certainly nostalgia was [inaudible]. SM (01:35:37): Yeah. MT (01:35:37): You cannot... SM (01:35:39): And then the second thing was, "I wish I had lived then." MT (01:35:41): Right. SM (01:35:58): Because you had causes and we had nothing. MT (01:35:58): Well, I think... SM (01:35:58): That was the (19)90s. That is not now. MT (01:35:58): Yeah, it was the (19)90s. But I think it would be hard to replicate the (19)60s. You look at what was happening so quickly, the music and going along with it and the culture. It was... SM (01:36:07): See, the only thing they really had was the anti-apartheid movement which was happening. MT (01:36:08): That is true. SM (01:36:12): That was important. But it was not everything. What does it mean to be a feminist in your own words? And does the women's movement differ from the feminist movement? MT (01:36:26): Oh, I use them interchangeably. Although I suppose you could define them differently. You could define the women's movement, I think people have used it differently having the women's movement be more strictly rights oriented and the feminist movement being more culturally oriented. But I use them interchangeably. And as a feminist, I think my definition of feminist is someone who sees the world through the perspective of women and gender, and understands issues in terms of how it affects women. And it is a champion for women, for empowerment of women. SM (01:37:16): So men can be called feminists. MT (01:37:24): Oh, yeah. Although, probably would have a different perspective than women who were coming at it from their own experience. But yes, I think so. SM (01:37:33): So Frederick Douglass was really a feminist and... MT (01:37:35): And Ron [inaudible] was certainly a feminist. Yes. Yeah. SM (01:37:45): What happened to that era when all activist groups were seen with each other? I think we already talked about this. MT (01:37:50): I think coalitions were hard to maintain, once organizations became established and interested in their own successes and longevity, I think coalitions became more difficult. SM (01:38:12): Would not you think though, the war in Afghanistan and certainly in Iraq, that you would see in Washington? There has been protests, but I have been to one, and I had not seen the signs. I would go by the signs and I also go with the people that are speaking. But to see more anti-war people from feminist groups, certainly the anti-war groups, the African American groups, Native American, Chicano, you name it, Asian groups all together against war. I would think... MT (01:38:52): You would think you would see this in droves. SM (01:38:53): I think when you... Yeah, I do not see it. MT (01:38:56): Well, I think that there is... Well, there is definitely a conflict within feminism in terms of Afghanistan because there is Code Pink and people like Jodie Evans who see no advantage to bad intervention and the [inaudible] majority, Ellie Sniel, people like that would support US actions that would help women in Afghanistan and there are those too. Jodie would argue that it is not really helping in the long run, these are not issues that can be advanced with an occupation force. And Ellie, I think would argue that intervention and empowerment of women in Afghanistan was enormously important. And I do not know where I would come down. I think they are both... But it is interesting that Jodie is... SM (01:40:05): Jodie who? MT (01:40:06): Jodie Evans, her name is, and she is a co-founder of a group called, you should look at it up, at least find it on the web, Code Pink. Code Pink goes and disrupts congressional hearings and everything like that. There is an absolute out of the (19)60s in your face demonstrating group. And Jodie happens to be the board president at the moment of the Women's Media Center. So she works very closely with Gloria, Gloria and Robin and Jane Fonda were founders of the Women's Media Center. So they all work closely together, but they have these different perspectives. SM (01:40:50): Yeah. Jodie. MT (01:40:55): Jodie Evans. Yeah. SM (01:40:56): I think she might be a good interview too. MT (01:40:58): She would be and she is in California most of the time, although she travels around. SM (01:41:08): I contacted Jane Fonda, but I contacted her a long... MT (01:41:10): Yeah, I think Jane probably would not have time. SM (01:41:12): She was with CNN and she was married to Ted Turner. MT (01:41:15): Ted Turner. Well, she is not married to Ted anymore. SM (01:41:17): Yeah. But she just said she was too busy. MT (01:41:22): Well, I think Gloria is involved in her own oral history work at Smith. So I think she probably would have the same reaction. But she is doing all the... SM (01:41:36): Yeah. MT (01:41:40): I think she made that commitment to do it with Smith. SM (01:41:42): Your thoughts on the job that the media has done in covering the movement in the (19)60s and (19)70s, and I am going to make a few comments here. The media, there is a brand-new book I interviewed a person at Regional College in Philadelphia, just written a book on the media and how covered the (19)60s... filled out and just written a book on the media and how it covered the (19)60s, and the sensationalism was all they cared about as opposed... And it is left lasting images that were really not true because- MT (01:42:13): Like bra burning. SM (01:42:14): Yeah. The image of the media was supposed to always build things up. The- MT (01:42:21): I do not know. I do not know. I mean, I do know that it was always a joke, and Bill said someone would come out with a headline, The Women's Movement Is Dead, almost every year since 1973. SM (01:42:39): Well, just my question here is your thoughts on the job that the media's done in covering the movement in the (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s in particular, and maybe even beyond. Did they concentrate on the sensational or the unusual, or what was really happening every day? I use the examples here, the bra burning in Atlantic City, what we saw about people being nude at Woodstock, which was really a minority, if you really know- MT (01:43:03): Well, and you know that the bra burning never took place. SM (01:43:05): Yes. I know that did not take place. There were maybe about 20 people that were new that [inaudible]. It was not very many. MT (01:43:10): Yeah. And they were covered in mud. So, what the hell? SM (01:43:16): Yeah. The drugs. The drugs at the Summer of Love in San Francisco. Of course, I put in here the song that was very popular at the time in the (19)60s, Love the One You're With, which was an image that free sex no matter what is happening. The communal movement where there were lots of sex. That is kind of the perception that people had. Just your thoughts on what the media has done for the women's movement and for the movers and on the events of that period, were they well upfront? Were they honest, or were they... MT (01:43:55): I think there were certainly journalists who were absolutely wonderful. I mean, Eileen Shanahan comes to mind, who was an early... She was a Times reporter who did mostly economic stuff. But then she started covering the women's movement. She for the Times, and then Shabel Shelton for the Washington Times at that point, which was completely different than the Washington Times now, or Washington... the other paper besides those. These women were absolutely wonderful in terms of covering the women's movement. I think that the press, the media was completely essential to the spreading of feminism. The fact that they were there and they were covering these issues was very important. On the other hand, as I said, there is a tendency in the media that said all this or all that. That is why you always had these feminism is dead sign. There was a news forecaster who when Ms. came out, said, "I would give it six months." SM (01:45:05): Oh, my God. MT (01:45:06): And we got him to come back five years later and do an ad for us. It was Reasoner... Was it, Reasoner? SM (01:45:09): Harry Reasoner? MT (01:45:17): I think so. Who did an ad for us. It said, "I gave it six months. I was wrong." I mean, he said it so... SM (01:45:19): That is an interesting anecdote. MT (01:45:27): Yeah. I think I must have it in the... SM (01:45:28): Even on ABC, Harry Reasoner. MT (01:45:28): I think it was Reasoner. You know- SM (01:45:33): He was also 60 Minutes. MT (01:45:35): Yeah. But... Oh. SM (01:45:35): He did both. MT (01:45:37): Maybe. I wonder if it was someone else. Anyway, it is in the Ms. book. You can find it. So, I am up to Mines. Now at the Women's Media Center, a lot of what we are doing is identifying sexism in the media, which is surely easy to find. But mostly that is not the main... I mean, part of it is mainstream media, but part of it is talk radio and the cable stations. There is all these horrendous stories that people will watch out for and send in to the Women's Media Center and then it is spotlighted on the thing. SM (01:46:22): You know, it was Eddie Hoffman was very outspoken when he did all these crazy things with the hippies. He says, " You got to do crazy stuff to be able to get the media to cover you." That is the way you do it. MT (01:46:36): Yes. I suppose that is true. But the women, there was absolutely coverage. I remember when I was volunteering for the caucus in (19)71, and Liz Carpenter was Press Secretary of Ladybird Johnson and very involved in... She was one of the founders of the caucus. She was so media savvy. This is during the Nixon administration. There was an appointment in the Supreme Court to fill, and I think it was Liz's idea. She said, "We will put out a list of women who are qualified." That was picked up all over the place. It became an issue. It became something that Nixon had to consider. He did not do it then. But then Sandra Day O'Connor came on, not that far, I mean, during the Reagan administration. So, there was a way of... That is before. The media has been now much more dispersed. But there was a way of capturing, if you knew how things worked, and certainly Yappy did. SM (01:47:46): Oh, my God. MT (01:47:48): And Liz Carpenter did, in a much more mainstream way. I mean, there were- SM (01:47:52): [inaudible] dollar bills [inaudible] MT (01:47:55): There were ways of using that. SM (01:47:59): You keep making reference to the media caucus. What was that, the women's caucus? What was that? MT (01:48:06): What? The women's media... SM (01:48:06): Yeah. Caucus. MT (01:48:09): Oh, no. There is the Women's Media Center, which is what I work for now, which is something that is been founded in the last six years by Robin, Gloria and Jane Fonda. There were the... Oh, the National Women's Political Caucus was what I was referring to before, which Bella, Shirley, Betty Friedan... I am forgetting someone. SM (01:48:38): And that started what year? MT (01:48:39): (19)71. SM (01:48:41): And the basic purpose was? MT (01:48:43): Get women appointed and elected to office. SM (01:48:46): Very good. MT (01:48:47): And it still exists, although it had chapters in every state at one point. SM (01:48:55): Mm-hmm. How we doing time-wise there? Is it going to quarter of there? MT (01:49:00): It is 20 up. SM (01:49:01): 20 up? I have to leave in 10 minutes because she is only five miles away. But she is at Park Place. It is not that far. MT (01:49:09): It is hard, but... Well, you probably will not run into traffic at this point. SM (01:49:15): Well, I back to 9A and just go back that way. MT (01:49:17): You can just turn on 96th Street. Is that- SM (01:49:24): Yeah, I got my instructions. It is pretty easy once you get back on 9A. MT (01:49:28): So, you are going downtown, right? SM (01:49:28): Yeah. MT (01:49:31): On the West Side Highway, basically. SM (01:49:33): Yeah. She is on 34th, and I do not know... She is at Two Park Place. MT (01:49:38): Well, Park Place is all the way downtown. But what you will do is just, you can get on the highway right here at 96th Street. SM (01:49:47): Yeah. She said there is a place to park right across the street. MT (01:49:49): Oh, good. SM (01:49:57): I guess... I have got three more pages here. But in your own words, can you define female leadership? How does it differ from male leadership, in your opinion? The third part of this is, do women want to be treated as equals to men by securing the qualities that men have in order to succeed? A lot of people, doctors have said, "Well, if they take on the characteristics of men, they will die as early as men do." MT (01:50:25): Or have nothing to offer the world in terms of a different style of being. I would say that, in my experience, women's organizations have are very different. I spent from (19)72 to (19)91... So, what is that? Almost two decades at Ms. It was non-hierarchical in many, many ways, in many frustrating ways for some people, for some things. But it was also empowering because if you wanted to take something on, you took it on. There is a different model of leadership. And it still exists. I can see it in terms of... I just finished doing a lot of interviews for the National Council for Research on Women, which did a conference and now is doing a follow-up report on the concrete ceiling, they call it, that Black women reach at the top of corporations. The women in these corporations talk about a very different style of leadership that women have in the corporations, which it is like the toughest thing you can think of because that is the most structured kind of thing, but a kind of difference, inclusiveness. There are so many different... It is so interesting, the kinds of differences they have identified. Some of them work to women's disadvantage; some to their advantage. That leadership thing, I think, works to advantage. Women are becoming very valuable to corporations that are trying for a global market because they are used to negotiating and in different ways. But also, women do not hook on to mentors in the way that men do. Men are very comfortable using their relationships to advance, and women want relationships with much more trust and sort of much deeper things. It is fascinating. I mean, I think there are lots of gender differences, and I do not think we would want to just emulate men. But I think it is a question. I think when women got into positions of leadership in a situation where men were the norm, that is when things like Queen Bees would emerge because that is how you could function. But I also think if women are at a critical mass, then there is a chance of changing the culture. SM (01:53:34): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? When did it end? What was the watershed moment? MT (01:53:41): Well, for me, it was like the mid (19)60s. As I said, it was the Civil Rights Movement before even the anti-war movement was the big important... SM (01:53:55): I am running at a time here even on this. MT (01:53:59): You can always follow- up with stuff on an email, if you want, too, if there is something you need to fill in. SM (01:54:02): I got time for one more question. MT (01:54:02): Yeah. [inaudible]. SM (01:54:02): [inaudible] here. (19)60s, when did it end, in your opinion? MT (01:54:20): I do not know. I never sort of had that sense of things ending and beginning, I think, because I was involved with Ms. and I just saw things. But I guess the (19)60s for me and for the women's movement carried on through (19)70s because there were things like the Houston Conference, and I guess you would have to say Reagan. I mean, you would have to say that and the fact that Ted Kennedy's appeal did not make it in terms of... All sorts of things. SM (01:54:56): How important role did women play in ending the war in Vietnam, in your opinion? MT (01:54:56): I think more important than setting up the... Simone Bella, for instance, organized the whole West Side in terms of peace movement. I think more in setting up the atmosphere where being anti-war was a respectable position. With Women's Strike for Peace, and those were... The whole Mother's Movement Against Strontium-90 and stuff like that that that represented. I think they were very important. But I think that the impetus that ended the war was the draft, and that certainly affected men more than women. SM (01:55:49): Let us see here. I guess I will end my last question. Hope we get enough time to do this. Question about due the divisions a tremendous division that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between Black and white, sometimes male and female, gay and straight, certainly the tremendous divisions over the war in Vietnam, those who served those who did not, those who were against the war and for the war, do you think this boomer generation is going to go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healed? MT (01:56:26): I do not think- SM (01:56:29): Due to the tremendous divisiveness that took place at the time, and do you think this is an issue and it is playing a part in the divisiveness that we are seeing in our society today, the tremendous divisions and the-the culture wars that we are seeing over and over again where we cannot seem to get over the (19)60s? MT (01:56:54): Well, I think that the culture wars were manipulated by the right. I think the issues that the right pulled, certainly the women's issues that they pulled to organize around, a lot of that was a gift to the right of issues that it could organize around. I am not sure that those were organically grew on their own. I think they were manipulated. But in terms of larger issues, I think there is a whole different feeling about soldiers that are in Iraq and in Afghanistan than there ever was about soldiers that were in Vietnam to the discredit, I suppose, of the anti-war movement back in the (19)60s, that you did not have a lot of sympathy for the people fighting it, which I think is completely different now. I mean, you clearly have an understanding that whether you are anti-war, whether you are a pacifist or not, that it is not the soldiers that are the problem; it is the policy. I think there is that kind of shift in mentality. I do not think the (19)60s anti-war, kind of anti-government... I mean, there is still mistrust of government, God knows. But I mean, I think that has changed with time. SM (01:58:19): So, you do not see healing as a problem within this generation of 70 million due to these tremendous divisions when they were evolving as adults? MT (01:58:19): Who? The boomer- SM (01:58:19): The boomer generation. MT (01:58:19): ...kind of generation? SM (01:58:19): Yeah, the boomers. MT (01:58:49): I do not know. I have lived so much of my life in New York and in one kind of protected, in a way, from a culture that might get mad at me. I go back to the Houston Conference and state meetings that we went to. It was the first time I had ever seen these hordes of right-wing people who did not like me. SM (01:59:14): Yeah. I know Dan Scrubs, when he wrote the book To Heal a Nation, the book on the building of the wall, the goal was mostly to heal the veterans and the lost loved ones and all the Vietnam veterans, but hopefully to begin healing the nation from the divisions of that war. I do not know what role the wall has played in the whole nation, whether it has helped the Vietnam community because none of [inaudible] going to totally heal. But is it possible to yield from such divisions that... MT (01:59:54): Yeah, I think they become less important. I mean, except as things that have modeled your thinking. But I think it is. Yeah. I think it is. Especially through the... I mean, is it possible for one generation to heal? Maybe not entirely, but certainly through the generations, there is evolution. SM (02:00:17): I am about... MT (02:00:19): You are past it. I mean now, it is like past tense. But as I said, if you feel like... [End of Interview] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Thom Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thom, Mary ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Feminists; Editors; Ms. magazine/Sarah Lazin books; Thom, Mary--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of Ms. Magazine. She wrote her first book about the history of Ms. Magazine, entitled Inside Ms.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-06-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.167a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.167b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 120:26 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2d88dcbc075c3590201e5300ecb15684.mp3 45766cc8ea0ebe8f3f4b0c182e86cc23 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5c6c0986d64fd5fecbded9f85552e596.mp3 3d8d0b791a9349be14ef12b7b37ee24d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e2d3bba7b9fa4fb6ba6a4ce9932fb2ed.mp3 2e9b32af2a2edf305b37e569cb4c31bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alston, Matthew Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wood, Wanda Date of Interview 1978-01-30 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Subject LCSH Alston, Matthew -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Musicians -- Interviews; Orchestra; Jazz; Photographers; Discrimination; Arlington Hotel; Bennett Hotel Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:09 Minutes ; 12:25 Minutes ; 33:29 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56058">Interview with Matthew Alston</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Matthew Alston Interviewed by: Wanda Wood Date of interview: 30 January 1978 Wanda: Date is the thirtieth of January. Don't know quite where to start here, but I would like to have you tell me something about what your life has been like. Matthew: Yes. Well, in the beginning, the reason I tried so many things, and I worked at each one of those things to make a living—now—because at the time I was coming up, it was hard for a colored man, no matter how smart he was, to get into places, you know. And he had to be twice as smart as a white person to—ah—get a chance, you know. That's the only way he could get into some places. Well, now I figured that—ah—in school I would have to learn as much as I could, and if I had the same intelligence, you know, on the same level, as a white boy under the same conditions, I should be as good as him in learning something. And that's what I did, I—I learned to do pictures, I learned to paint houses, and I took interest in everything I did to do the best I could, you know. And then I—ah—there's a friend of mine that—who was in school, and he played a recital one day, on the violin. And he was about fourteen years old. Well, that got me for music. So I went home, I says to my Dad, I said, "Gee, Clinton can play good." I said, "I wish't I could take violin lessons."  “All right.” He bought me a violin. So then, ah—Professor—ah—from Owego there—what the heck was his name? Ah—Houck*—he, ah—he, ah—took—I took lessons from him. And I learned to play the violin, and then I, I after that developed into a, when I got older, into a—a leader of an orchestra I had. I went overseas and I came back after the First War and I had two boys I picked up over there that could play. Wanda: Were you in the Army then? Matthew: Oh yes. Oh yes, that was—in the First War. And so we—they wanted to stick together. They came from New York. So we formed an orchestra and—first five men and then ten. I played at the Arlington Hotel, the Bennett Hotel, and I played, ah—in Montrose every Thursday, for the college boys there. I played up in Ithaca and went all around like that and I grew up to ten men. And [laughs] that's what my violin lessons did for me. And then I wanted to take pictures. I found out something about pictures and— Wanda: Tell me how you started in photography. Will you tell that story? Matthew: Yeah. [chuckles.] Well, anyway, it's gonna be funny. I don't know whether I should let this out or not. I—uh—I never did see anybody take pictures, you know, and finish 'em before, and I thought it was quite a mystery about that. So I—ah—was working for some people. They had—ah—ah—ah, Barnum—it was Barnum's—they used to have a—a grocery store up on, ah, Chenango Street. And a little house, a little yellow house on the corner of Doubleday and Chenango was theirs, and then they'd go to Florida every winter—and they—and I was going to school too, up on Robinson Street at the time. They wanted me to—I mowed the lawn in the summer, so in the winter, when they went down there they wanted to keep the snow clean and keep the fire goin' so the place wouldn't freeze. And one day she wrote and told me to clean up the attic, and put things aside that I thought she might need and so they could be thrown out if she didn't. So I did and I came across a camera. First I came across a couple of boxes of negatives, and at that time they didn't have—ah—celluloid. They were glass negatives—glass plates, made outta glass, And there was no film around other than the glass. So a friend of mine, older than I was, he had been taking pictures and I took them up. And Brownie, he worked for the telephone company, you know. And I says, ah—"Ernie,” I says, “I found these up in the attic."  And he says, ah, "Oh yeah."  And I says, "Gee, this Mr. Barnum must know a lot of colored people in—in Florida."  He says, "Why?"  I said, "There's a picture. There's two girls standing up and an old man, and they all have black faces. And the girls have long black braids, you know."  And Brownie commenced to laugh. He says, "Yep," he says, "I'll make some tricks tonight." He says, "Come up to the house after supper." And I went up and he had an old-fashioned—printing, you know, and developing. You didn't have to have, ah—all these darkroom lights and everything, and had that open-faced—ah—open flame gas, no mantle, just those you turn up and down, you know. And he says—he took me up in the bathroom and he had some emulsion he put in that dish and he had a little, a little lamp, one of those stinkin’ little old lamps they used to burn oil. And you'd smother inside of a small place with it, and every now and then they'd burn an’ smoke up the place, you know? And he come out and he'd hold the—put the negative in the frame, put a paper over it, and then he'd close it up and he come up and bring it to his chest, and he'd turn it to the light and count so many seconds, then put it back and then go around and develop it. And he was developing, you know, and he says, "I want you to pay attention to this, Matt."  And I looked and he says—ah—I says, "What is it?"  He says, "Now watch it change," he says, "I'm a magician.”  And so it commenced to develop, y’know, and it commenced to come up, y’know, and it come up all white, so I says, "Hey Brownie," I says, "They're white!" He says, "Yeah," he says, "that's a positive,” he says. "Now—ah," he says, "this is a negative." Then he showed me the negative with black people on there like this, y’know.  So, I thought he tried to be nice to me. I thought he didn't want to say, “Negro,” or anything like that. He says, "Negatives." So I said, "You don't have to be so nice, just tell me what they are, see?" He says, "They're negatives." He says, "So, so when you put a negative to a positive—papers—positive,” he says, "and then you develop it," he says, "it's just reversed. What's black is white 'n what's white is black."  And I says—I studied that—I said, "Well, I just have to take pictures." So I started in doin' that and I learned a little of that—and then I wrote back and told them what I found. And I found a little Colony camera—that's, oh, it's worth a lot today. It's an old—one of the first Ansco cameras they made here. Wanda: Colony? Matthew: Yeah. C-O-L-O-N-Y, Colony. And, ah, it was made o’ wood and had a rubber bellows and it had a lens on there with a cap. You had to take the cap off and count and put it back. Quick—like that, y’know. Wanda: For the exposure. Matthew: Ayuh. Because the emulsion in those days was very slow—very slow acting—y’know, it wasn't fast and you'd just take it off, put it back on there like that. And, ah—then comes the—ah—flash light. Magnesium powder. And y’see, so you get out the first time with that and I take a little bit in a spoon and put an’ on the flash—a little spoon, little pan, y’know, and you hold it up with a handle, an’ there's a little wick, you hang down an’ light it an' wait a minute and it'd go BOOM and the explosion makes all o’ the—smoke up the room, y’know, and everybody used to jump outta their skins. And after you got through takin' ’em, y’know, you'd look at your pictures. If you had a group there'd be some with their eyes shut, some of them open, and some eyes starin' out—it was a mess. So you have to ca—take about a dozen pictures to get one good one. Because they were scared to death. And I says—I went to a dance one night, and these women had dolled the place all up. It was on the top o’ the old Herald building. You can put that down if you want to. Wanda: Herald? Matthew: In the old Herald building on the corner of State an’, an’, ah, Washington. I mean State an', and Henry. It's where the Army—no wait a minute, it isn't now. It used to be the post office? You know where the old post office—they call it old post office now. It's on the corner of— Wanda: You mean the Armory—where the Armory was? Matthew: No. No. This building is still up. It's that big building that they—that they have on—on the corner, you know, where Berger's is? Wanda: Mmhmm. Matthew: Just opposite Berger's. You know that big— Wanda: —Oh yeah.  Matthew: —Army or United States Post Office. There was another one, it was about four stories high and—it was, they used to, ah, they had—they printed a paper down in there, y’know.  Wanda: The Republican Herald? Matthew: Mmhmm. Right there, across, rather, on this side—where Berger's is. And right across there, where the Post Office is, there was another building almost like that. And they used to have dances in it. So this—these people, they had—they decorated—all the fancy stuff up in there, y’know—and drapes hangin' down. So I said to the boy that was gonna hold the flash, I says, "Get it away from those paper things." And I said, "Don't hold it too high. Just about that high." And he lit it. And it went phhht-BOOM and it hit one of those drapes and it went all over the—everything was burning on the ceiling at once, and the women were runnin’ out and they wanted to kill me. I said, "Oh, I gotta get my camera an’ stuff." Me an’ him, I was scared to go back. But I got some good pictures. And, ah, they said I was for damage and—I was in a heck of a fix, y’know. Well, that's the kind of pictures you took. So after that explosion comes from the flash, everything gets all foggy, and you had to let all the windows up an’ fan the smoke out— Wanda: —the smoke! Matthew: It'd take you ten or fifteen minutes before you could take another picture. Honest to God, that was something. And any time you held one up and says, "Look at that beautiful negative!” and you had to drop it on the floor, and bang, your negative's gone, see? Wanda: Of course. Matthew: All cracked up. So I—that's how I got in it, and then I sent to, ah—the, ah—the New York, ah—let's see—it was a photographic—ah—school in New York City at that time where, ah, you know—ah—you—a correspondence course. Wanda: Oh. Matthew: And it's still in business, I think—the American Photography, that was it—way back there, and I took a course in that to improve myself. Then I went, I took papers, at one time I took some papers—oh, a fellow that was a—a photographer on the Morning Sun. But they might’ve sold—in that same building there now. He, ah—he had to go away for a vacation, and they left me, wanted to know if I could take pictures, ‘cause I had the best equipment in town, y’know, at that time. And I met Mr. Kilmer an’ his horses an’ things, and I took some pictures and had them in the paper and, ah—Oskewanna. I think they had one horse there by the name of Oskewanna. He was a favorite, y’know, and I took a lot o’ pictures of him, see, that I took down at the old—ah, fairgrounds in—ah—Endicott. You know, where that, they had a race track down there an’ ball games an’ everything. It was—oh, I don't know, years ago.  And now to show you how they were, y’know. The guards was up against there, y’know, where you had to go across the track. An' the only place, the good place to get to the track at the finish was right on that side, right next to the—ah—judge's stand, as they came through. So I tried to work out a way to get over there. When I was young I was an athlete—I could jump, y’know, like that—and I had this big camera, and I went up an’ said, "Will you let me cross, please?" "What are you doin' here?" I says, "Look, I gotta get in to take pictures." I says, "I got a courtesy card from the Morning Sun." He says, "You aren't workin’ over here." So—all the other guys was goin' over, y’know—so I walked down that way and I jumped the fence and I run across the track, an’ the horses were comin' and they went, "Matt, get outta there—go back!" And you see, we had the cameras like this—a line of boys takin’ pictures, you know, and ah—three of us, tracks was here, so you would—ah—as soon as the horses'd come close to you, you'd take a picture an’ you'd swing back and let the guy behind you get a chance. I was the last one, see, back here, and the horses hadn't got up to the grandstand—I mean the judge's stand, y’know—so—huh—I swung over and I got—[laughs]. Well, they, they put that in the paper an' all that stuff, but—ah—so that's what prejudice did, y’know. It made me do things. And then I started to paint houses. No—I—I—drove a truck for Jameson-Boyce and, ah—and I get off from that and I started—when I was on it—to paint houses, and then I—that's the chance I had for—for playin’ my music, y’know. For dances. We got dances everywhere around here. The old—it was—we used to call it the Dixie Jazz Band, if anybody will remember that—y’know, and we put all the other guys out o’ business and they, they wanted me to join, y’see. I don't know whether I should—do I sound prejudiced? Huh? In the speech? Wanda: No. Because I can put myself in— Matthew: Well, anyway, like I'm tellin’ you—when I learned, that's how I came to do so many things. And I thought I was just as good as the next guy—if I had the opportunity. And I had to make a livin' because when I grew—I didn't know I was gonna get this old, but I learned I need to make more than a dollar a day, y’know, so ah—they had a union here and when I come, I said to the, ah—Dimmick—he's the one, the head o’ the union—music, Musician's Union—I says, "Look, I've got an orchestra," and I says, "It's gonna be good," and I says, "I want to be fair, everywhere," I says, "so I'd like to join your union," y’know. And he says, "Well, I’ll look about it." And it went on for two months. I'm still playing, you know. So one of the guys come to me, he says—one night—he says, "Matt, I'm sorry, but," he says, "you can't play around these places here unless you—” Wanda: —What?! Matthew: "—join the union." I says, “Don't tell me that." We were makin' more money than they were. We were gettin' a—ah—two dollars for the first hour and a dollar and a half each hour afterwards, and that's all they were getting, see. And we'd get more because we had more time, and sometimes we'd make as much as fifteen dollars a man a night, see. That was good money, in those days. So—ah—I had three boys, the piano player and the drummer and a boy that played a—a mandolin, see. Wanda: And it was jazz. Matthew: Oh, it was all—all, we had a fifth guy. 'Cause I was in New York City for about three years before the War, and I went from there to War and then I was—that's how I got to playin' good, y’know, with bands. And not—cut out the high-tone music 'cause I couldn't make no music—ah—no money. And when—so I went overseas and when I came back, I brought back—ah—one white boy and two colored boys. They lived in New York and they were in the same camp, y’know? And they came back and so we formed the orchestra. And then Bill Jeter, here—he, he died not so long ago. He was, ah, he was our piano player. And—ah—Marshal Moore, he was a drummer, so anyway we went, we played up to Greene, y’know, every week, and this night they wasn't givin' to the music. And I said, "Look, boys," I says, "These people pay as much as anybody else, and I don't care if you're so tired you can't keep your eyes open. You gotta play just as good for them as you could anybody else."  And ’e says, "Well, you know, we don't have to—play. In fact, we shouldn't play with you." They was all colored boys there, y’know. So one o’ the white boys down there that belonged to the union let ‘em in—one at a time, see—and told 'em not to say nothin' to me about it. And I says, "Whaddya mean?" He says "We belong to the union and, ah, they just let us play tonight." And I told them where to go. I—I was mean, y’know. I was tough, see, but I was tough as they. I told 'em just how fast they could get there without me helpin' 'em. And—ah—OK. Now here's where the trouble comes in. They played a month or so. And what you do—you've got an organization here, a union. Now you've got a band and he's got a band, and you call up and say, "I need a trumpeter." Well, one of the boys that's out of work gets the job. "I need a drummer." And so forth, y’know. Well, what happened, they was getting these—ah—drummers, y’know, and other guys from the white outfit, and the colored guys would be out o’ work, they wouldn't let you. So this one boy, one time, happened to be—ah—comin’ in, and he stood out in the hall waitin' a little while, y’know. And the doors was open, see—and, ah, let's see—and so one o’ the white boys says—whaddya call ‘em? He says, "I don't—-why you wanna hire them niggers?" he said. "Don't forget," he says, "There's more people in the orchestras. Them damn niggers, they're gettin’ all the jobs." So this boy gets mad. He told the rest of 'em. And I didn't know about it 'til later. So, I'm up on—I'm painting houses now, y’know, and I didn't work out of my trade, and so I'm up on the corner of—ah, Pearne and, ah—Chenango Street. Joseph's Brothers had a—had a—a store there. Wanda: Oh yes. Matthew: Remember? Wanda: Yes. Matthew: Well, I'm up there painting, y’know, and I look down on a hot summer day, and there was my orchestra down there, pushing those hot irons around with wooden shoes on and—and the sweat comin' off of 'em, and tar. That's the time—they used to have asphalt for roads and they didn't have the machinery. They'd do it by hand, y’know. So I looked down and I says, "Ah—hah-hah-hah," I says, "Look at the band down there." I says, "Whaddya doin'?" I says, "Boy, are you guys hot!" You know. Oh jeez, they all run and hid. They didn't want to—look this sorta thing, so, so I went down an’ I said to one of 'em, I said, "What happened?" "Well, like you said, they'd put us outta business, and they have." And then he told me. He says so, then they didn't have no work and they wanted me to come back, and I says, "No." I says, "No.” I didn't want to have nothin’ to do with it. Ah, my—my grandfather, see, on my mother's side—was a Cherokee Indian, see. I've got three bloods in me. I've got a—I'm Indian and English and, and Negro. My father was a dark man, see. And when those—you know—touchy bits up there like that, you get mad. I don't know anybody anymore. Anybody'd ever do me—and it's easy—anybody that ever done me dirty—I could forget them. You know I—I don't make up. Some of them I never made up, see. And they know it, see, so I told him, I says, "We got along fine an’ I told you that would happen, because," I said, "I know the, ah—ah—the ideas that these men have around here. They just wanted to get you out, see?" And I says, ah, "Serves you right." I said, "We get along." I said, "I went through it like a man." And I told 'im what was gonna happen and I says I have an idea, because we had the new jazz, everything that was comin' up from New York, y’know. This one boy had a clarinet and the other one played the piano, y’know, and they were hot stuff, and me—I was—doin' everything—[laughter]—you know, and we—we got all the jobs, y’know. I—I—had worked up to ten men then.  And here's a funny one. All o’ the pictures I took—everybody's in it but me. They say, "Where were you, Matt?" I took all the pictures, see. So this one girl that, ah—Bill Jeter died about a couple of months ago, and his daughter came from New York here, and she said she has quite a few pictures now that I took of the orchestra at that time, and she's going to send me a couple of 'em, see. Then I'll have my own, but I'm still not on them. [laughs.] So that's, that's one way that I had to learn everything. And I put an interest, now. If you see—you see that camera book there? Wanda: Um hmm. Matthew: Well, that's one I bought, oh, about four years ago. I take a book like that and I read it through. And nothin'. It's just like mud to me. You know— Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: I can't get it, read it through again. In the meantime I'm—I'm practicing with my camera. Wanda: Um hmm. Matthew: I put the book down about—maybe three weeks later, on Sunday or something, I pick it up and start to read—everything comes right out like that, you know, you can't—you can't learn things—in one day. Wanda: Right. Matthew: I can't. Well, when I get that done, then you ask me anything and I can tell you just what's on that camera, what it'll do. And then I go ahead an’— Wanda: It's up here. Matthew: Sure. Wanda: Your computer is OK, isn't it? Matthew: [laughter.] I think it is so far, but once in a while it changes, when it gets stuck there, y’know, and I go to think of something—it just don't function right away. After a while, if I wait long enough. Now like, like there's a young lady that I knew in New York City. This is way back in nineteen-hundred and, ah—well, just before the War I met her and—she was a very nice-looking colored girl, and her name was Catherine and I couldn't think of the other name. I just laid there—think—and think and think, this morning. I don't know what made me think of her, but anyway, I did, and ah—"Sullivan." Because she had a name, you know—that was an Irish name. She was a colored girl. So, as I said that—I put it together. I said it's nothing that I could call a Johnson or Jackson—now that's a name of another race. And so I just like to do—and that, that was over—since nineteen and—and sixteen, I guess. So you see, the function there, comes after a little bit. Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: Now there's a lady, you want to ask me about her. See that nice lady there on the table? Wanda: Oh yes. Matthew: I don't know whether she's dead or who she is or where she lives. I've had that for fifteen years. Now—here's what happened. I used to take a lot of portraits, right—I lived—I had two big rooms and I took all nice—portrait pictures, you know. My daughter's got all of the—junk over to her house. And I went lookin’ around. I used to go down to the Volunteers and Salvation Army to buy frames. 'Cause they were expensive. That frame—she was in that, y’know, and I took her home and she looked at me like that, you know. It—it just—I thought to myself. You take a look at it, take it up close. Wanda: It's beautiful, isn't it? Matthew: Uh- huh. And I said to myself, "Jesus, that nice lady, I can't just take her out of there and tear her up or throw her away." And everybody thinks she's my wife. [chuckles.] I said, "I don't know whether that's an angel or not." I said, "That lady might be dead for a long time," but I says—ah, I just couldn't throw her away. You know I didn't want—because that, ah, frame—I coulda used the frame, all right. But I says, "No." And she looked at me like that, y’know, and I said, "All right." Isn't that silly? Wanda: No, it's not silly. Matthew: Anyway, I got an aunt, two aunts, that—that—they're real Indian, y’know. And, but she—she looks like, like, like one o’ them. Aunt Lou, she's dead now. You see my, my grandfather William—now they're talking about the Roots,⁺ y’know. There's one of my cousins—I guess at the same time this guy started Roots—and he lives down in Jersey, so he came up and he, ah—his mother was my mother's sister. See? One of her sisters, she had five of ‘em. So he come up out of New York and he says, "Matt," he says, "What—ah—what—name some of the people." Well, he tried to find—so I named him some and he says—ah—he wanted to get 'em. Now, my mother's father, he came from England, and his people—cut him off, because they called him the black sheep. He—he was one of an Englishman that wanted to get out and come here and have, do things, y’know. Of course they had a—crockery ware. And, ah—his name—their names were Webb. His name was William Webb. Wanda: They had a crock—crockery? Matthew: Well—they had a—a—crock—like, like crockery wares, y’know, dishes and things like that. Wanda: Umhmm. Matthew: They have a—either wholesale, or they manufacture them. I don't know what it was. Mother used to tell it, y’know. And, ah—so—I—ah—their names were Webb. They were William Webb’s. Big tall man—he had this long mustache. He looked like those, ah—colonels that they have in England, y’know, those—ah, yeah, like that. [Laughs at the suggestion of a monocle.] And so they, they, they threw him. He—he said he didn't care whether he saw them anymore or not, because he came to this country and he turned out to be a carpenter, y’know. He liked that trade. And he must’ve learned when he was young and he grew up to be a—a good carpenter, and he, ah—oh, ah—came home and told my grandmother, one night, Mother said, that he thought he fell off the scaffold where he was workin', y’know? No, not him—the fellow that was his partner—fell off the scaffold—and died. And she said it was two weeks after that—that he fell off the scaffold, and when he went down he hit his back on—on one of those tombstones, y’know? And, and he died. Broke his back. Now maybe—these days they mighta been able to do something for him, y’know? He died. Well now, he left a son, my mother's brother. And he was a handsome guy, Junie. Tall and he looked just like his dad, y’know. And, ah—he, ah—was a fireman. Years ago, y’know, they didn't tell, they couldn't tell for sure who was—y’know—what he was, see? He was an Englishman, that's all. Ah, and my uncle, y’know, I wish I had some o’ those pictures to show you, he was a handsome man, And, ah, so that's how I got mixed up. So my—they—they got some, ah—some stuff in this tree. But I think they got it mixed up with an oak tree, or something, but anyway—they couldn't put some of the limbs back. So—that's some of those things that went around, y’know, and now to show you what a nice job—a different job I had—ah—I—you know—prejudice is an awful thing. You know, they had the medical depot up here— Wanda: Yeah.  Matthew: You know where that was? Wanda: Umhmm.  Matthew: OK. A man downtown that's supposed to hire you and send you there. Regardless, see. It was a government job. So I went up there two or three times and I filled an application out and he says, ah, "I'll let you know in—in a week." A week'd go by, and I'd get up there and I'd go up and I'd see him sittin' right in the office there. And, he was up in the, ah—now let's see if I can get this filled in right where he was. I think it was in the, ah—the—the building on, on Chenango Street where the, ah—the first, ah—Union—I mean, ah—not Union, but, ah—ya had to pay your taxes—where the taxes were—in that old—in that building where—where the, ah—gas company was, see? Over there. Well, anyway—no. It was across the street, where the—where the loan place is. They opened that up for government work, y’know. At the time, y’know? Right across? Well anyway, I got tired of being run around. So, I knew a girl that was a typist down there and I said to her, "Hey look, I made a mistake on my, ah”—you know, ah— Wanda: Application? Matthew: “Application.” I said, "Can I have a couple of them? Better give me two so if I won't make a mistake." Says, "OK," so she gave me two. I took them home that night. I'm married, too, now, you know. And I wrote on it. Filled them out. Front and back. And the next morning I says, "I'm going up there." So I went up, and you had to have a—ah—notice from his office before you could—y’know, they had everything guarded and you had to have it to get in. So I happened to go up to the picket. It was easy, y’know, and I'm walking around, and I walked up there "biggie" like—I thought I was gonna get throwed out, see, but anyway, I walked up there that morning, y’know. And so I says, "Hi, fellas," so he says, "What fella?"  I says, "Hi, Frank." He says, "Hiya, Matt. What are you doin' up here?" I says, "Well, I come up to go to work, but I just have a paper like that, y’know. Goin' to see if I can get a job up here and go to work." And, ah—he didn't even look at me, y’know. He says, "Go ahead," So I went in. So here was a little Frenchman. Up on the steps in the Administration Building. And, ah—he come up there and he says, "Can I help you?" I says, "I'm lookin' for a job, and I have my papers." He says, "You have?" And I says, "Yeah." "Well, what do you do?" And I says, "Here's my application." So down in there it says, ah—freelance photographer and experience in, ah—printing and developing and so forth, y’know?  "Ahh—just the man I want. I need a photographer," he says. "You gonna get a job."  I says, "Why?" He took me right in, you know, and he says, ah, “We got nothin' here, but we'll take care of ya." And I happened to have about seventeen hundred dollars worth of equipment, you know, of my own, see? And he says, ah, “Maybe you can't do no work right now,” but he says, "We—we can fix some way." So what I had to do, the first thing, was to take the pictures of—ah—thirty-six hundred people that worked there, y’know. That the—ah—numbers and everything. And I had a camera that could do that, y’know. And I brought it up. So that, and I had this—two bulbs that—hundred-watt bulbs, you know—put 'em there and I made a frame. Everybody'd sit there and I was workin' and I was developing them—every night. So the next morning I could have a string with the numbers on, see, that I took, And I got through with that, so—they finally sent down a couple of things and got my stuff in a truck, see? Brought it up. And this guy comes in there one day and he says, "What are you doin' here?"  I says, "Me?" I didn't know anything. "Me?" He says "Yeah." Says "I'm workin' here." "What are ya doin'?" I says, "I'm takin’ all the photographs here. Big ones and little ones." "Why, how'd you get that job?" I says, "Just on account of you not puttin' me through." I said, "I've got what it takes to do the job and the Frenchman is not prejudiced." And I says, "Right away, he was lookin' for me but I didn't know it," I said. "Where the hell did you get the papers?"  I says, "I stole 'em up there one day." I says, "I'm workin' now. What are you gonna do about it? I work for Uncle Sam and you can't fire me—for nothing—if I'm handy an’ I'm workin’ for Uncle Sam. I got the job—signed up," I says, "You're outta luck."  Wanda: This was government work, right? Matthew: Heh? Wanda: It was government work? Matthew: Yeah. And, ah—I had to fill the application and everything, y’know. If you work for the government, you've got five or six people that don't like you. They're trying to get rid of you. They do everything—they can't do it. You gotta come to a—you know—a court hearing to find out why. They can't just say, "Oh, kick him outta here." That's one thing about government work, you know. You've got to have a real good reason. Wanda: Civil Service. Matthew: Yeah, and I was so mad—y’know—I used to box and wrassle, see. It was so hard for me to keep off that guy, you know. And, and I didn't want to spoil it because I'm gonna beat him up, then you know, they—[laughter]. So I had to take that for a while, and so every time he'd come back—so the Colonel says to me, Colonel Dowitz, his name was, ah—and he says, "Matt," he says, "Tell ya something," he says, ah, "We haven't got the room that—that—ah—you want, but," he says, "here's a place you can fix up." He says, "I'll get the carpenters sent over." A carpenter come—"Whadda you want?" I had two big, big—I didn't need all the rooms. I had two rooms—as big as these two together, more there, and then the Monolith machine, y’know. Did you ever see them? Wanda: No. Matthew: Well they're, ah—they're machines that you work that, that run a lot of paper like a mimeograph machine. Wanda: What did you call it? Matthew: Monolith. Then, and, and so I made even plates for that. And, and, they had a big machine in there, that they—you know, you go downtown and they have, ah—records made of some papers. Years ago it cost 'em eighteen hundred dollars for the machine, you know, and I learned to work that. Wanda: Photostat machine? Matthew: Photostat machine. Wanda: I used to run one of those. Matthew: Did ya? How d’you like those things? Well, I'll tell ya, well, this, this one, I think it was eighteen hundred dollars or something like that one, and I got out on—this guy came down one day and he says, "Whaddya doin'? Now." I says, "I'm makin’ some—photostats." "Where'd you learn?" I said, "Look, Mister," I said, "I can't tell you all the colleges I've finished—" And I used to “bull” him until—[laughter]—he believed everything that I'd tell him. After that, you know. I said, "I can't begin to tell you how many colleges I went through—for this stuff." And ah—at the time, these were really the best of the things that I liked in my life. And I took pictures of my kids all the time, I had a little fella that big. His mother dressed him up nice one Sunday, so I says—he's my big son, one of my big sons now—he says, ah—I says, "Hey, Louie," I says, "Let Daddy put you on the table." Every Sunday I was takin' pictures like that. I got a lot of 'em in a box that my daughter's got—so—they wouldn't get lost, you see? Because—I had some kids break in my house—one time, and all the beautiful pictures I had—of street-cars—and everything—from way back—they just—gouged them all on the floor, you know. Well anyway, I says, "Daddy'll give you two cents for a picture."  “All right.” So he stood with his hands behind him, one foot out, you know, lookin' nice. I took one and I says, ah, "Well, now Daddy'll take another one," I says, ah, "because maybe that'll be good." "Daddy—two pennies? Two pennies?" That little rascal—he was six years old, and yet—he was toutin' me. Not ready for school yet, anyway, but, and he's tellin' me, "Two pennies, Daddy. Two pennies." [laughter] Sorry. I said even if he was panning—he was usin' his brains all the time, y’know, just like his father. Wanda: Did you—you do much landscape photography or scenic stuff, too? Matthew: Yes. I did a lot. I—I—wish't I—let's see—I—I—I've got everything put away, but I've got, ah—slides, you know. Wanda: Oh, we, we can go into that some other time. Matthew: Some other time. Yeah, I'll get some out then. That's all my daughter Charlotte and I'd do, we—ah—we went, ah, around every, ah—day that we had off, and we’d go and then there was one of the Foster grandmothers, she likes being out in the woods in the country, so we'd take her and a friend of hers, and she says—in the summer, ah—two years ago she says, "Matt," she says, "Beautiful day out," and I said, "Yeah," I says, ah, “We get out at twelve o'clock, y’know," I says. "Well, let's go down and get a hunk of bread and a baloney," and I said "We'll go out—I'll take pictures." And I took a lot of pictures. Oh, I—old broken-down barns, y’know, with the humpbacks. One of 'em fell down and, and I knew it was an old barn and I could see the pegs were in there holding it up—the—beams about that big, y’know, and, and all these years—it was over a hundred years old. And I had a feeling. "Matt," I says, "that's only about a hundred twelve—fourteen years old.” And—and there was no bolts in it. A great big barn, put up there with these—ah—pegs, wooden pegs, y’know. Wanda: Wooden pegs. Amazing. Matthew: Umhmm. And then I've got pictures of old folks, y’know. I'll pick out some slides, and then I'll let ya know and then you can come in and— Wanda: I'd love to. Mr. Newcomb is interested in—in seeing some of your— Matthew: But. That's all I'd do. You know I—did—oh, I'd spend a lot of money with different ones who didn't have nothin' to do and they had a car. Five, six dollars worth of gas and we'd ride, and then, ah—she used to say to me, "Where'll we go today, Matt?" And I says, "Just—just get goin'." And we'll stop and get this an’ that an’ the other, and then we'd come back here and it would be very, very—why, it would be night, y’know? And here I'd go down. I'd go north, here, and what do I see? The sun is shining on this side, see? And then I take all the pictures, on this side the river, we'll say, going all the way up to—to—ah—oh—ah—Oxford, there. Up that way. Now, in the afternoon, to get—I'd cross over and come down the other side, and the sun is in the west—start in on that side. And that's what I had to do. So I went in—the morning—and we'd go up and up until about two o'clock, anyway, and go one side and take, and then, then we would always go on the old roads—on the back roads, you know. Oh, I enjoyed that. We got fooled one time. I'll show you, maybe, someday. All right. I went to a place up—above Oxford, there—where they had a civilian camp, you know. And they had this fireplace which was wide as that machine [the stereo] and it went up like that, and off the ground was that big, where they had the fireplace, y’know. And, ah—they had great big stones, they were stones about that big and they were cemented in and there was nothin' but the chimneys left—with the fireplace in there. All the rest of the buildings had been cleared away. And I says, "Gee, I've run into something." I—got a lot of slides, y’know, and I came home and I had 'em finished up. Because I don't do that 35mm stuff, y’know. Not now. And, ah—so I had 'em all done, y’know, and I said, "Gee, I've gotta get the history of this." And—everything was gone, you know. It looked—and everybody said, "Where'd you ever get this? Gee, where'd you get this?"  I said "Oh, I don't know—it's some place George Washington fooled around in." I says, ah, "It's upstate here.” So—one of the guys—I went up there one day. I was deer hunting, y’know, and I went up there to see him and ask him if he wanted to go out and take me someplace. And I says, "By the way," I says, ah, "There's two big chimneys here, and,” I says, “a big fireplace." I says, "Boy, that must be over a hundred years old." He says "Huh?" He says, "Whadda you mean?" So I told him where. "Ah, man," he says, "Boys put that up during the Depression.” Wh—when they had the civilians, you know, had the boys planting trees. Wanda: C.C.C.? Matthew: Yeah. [laughter]. I says, "Boy!" But you see the hundred in, ah—ah, Latin, isn't it? Wanda: Yeah. Yeah. Matthew: So CCC would be three hundred years old. Wanda: Makes a good story, anyway. Matthew: Yeah. Well, I was excited. Wanda: Well, of course. Matthew: I says, "They must have—baked people in there when they got bad or somethin’.” So I was—the fireplace was—this long, you know, and then the chimney came way out and up like that, and out of this side—it was huge chimneys, y’know. But, but they, ah, wasn't built right down low, it was built up about that high. You know, with a fireplace you'd freeze to death. Y'ever been in a house that had a fireplace—years ago? Wanda: Yes. Matthew: OK. When I was in Jersey, my aunt had a house, so—one at a time we'd stand up there or sit up there—and your face burns up, y’know, and here and your back is—freezing. You turn around, put your back to it an’ you freeze your face. [laughs]. You know, I used to think, "Gee whizz.” I never have been in one before, y’know, but down there, they lived out in the country when I went to visit. Well, up here we always had stoves and ranges, and my aunt—"Well, Aunt Maria," I says, "How do you keep warm all around?"  She says "You keep turning around." I liked that place because they, they had a—ah, well, there was a kind of canal—nearby. About as far as from here—oh—halfway down the building, y’know. And ah—high w—the water come in there when the tide raised, y’know, from the ocean. And we could catch crabs in there at night— Wanda: Oh my. Matthew: —and—turtles that big, see. So one night we—ah—we heard ducks. Ducks are crazy, you know, they—on moonlit nights they, they walk all night long catching frogs and things, y’know. Wanda: I didn't know that. Matthew: Ducks, you can find ducks, ah—walkin’ around, you know, at night. And the lawn went down, sloped down to the river. So one night we heard, "Quack, quack, quack, quack." And I got up an’ looked out and there was a turtle—almost, about big around as a basket, there, ah, you know— Wanda: Bushel basket? Matthew: About that high, and he had this duck backin' and drivin' and the duck was just— [END OF TAPE. They caught the turtle and made steaks of it.] [BEGINNING OF TAPE #2] [Mr. Alston brought out some of his photographic equipment, and he and Wanda spent some time inspecting cameras, lenses, etc.] Wanda: This is your Speed—Graphic? Matthew: Yes. Wanda: B. and J. Press—that's an oldie. Matthew: Yeah. See, I can use this because I've got, ah—whaddya call it, plates. Ah—I ran that off the track. Wanda: Just let me look at it. Matthew: It's heavy. Wanda: Yes it is. Kalart? —Matic Rangefinder. That's a classic, isn't it? Matthew: Oh, it is. Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: And I got the lenses upstairs. You know, I never get—I can start talkin’ on cameras and I can spend a whole week.  Wanda: You never get tired of them. Matthew: No. Wanda: It's like some people like to play with cars. Matthew: Yeah. And there's a lens that's two hundred and fifty dollars, just for the lens. Wanda: Projection? Matthew: We can use that on—on a camera, too. See these lens boards they made? The—they're supposed to hold a 16mm Kodak. Oh, I've got three or four of these around. But you see, unless you can sell them to somebody that's got a camera like this, they're no good. Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: And it's better to use these now and then. Wanda: Oh, it is? Matthew: Oh yes. Because they, they get tired, y’know. I've got a few pictures here, I picked up when I took— Can you get it on? Wanda: No. Matthew: Well, pull it right out. Wanda: It's off the, the track. Matthew: Put it way back in there. Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: Now see if we can get it on the track. Leaning a little bit—easy—wait a minute. Now pull that in there—are they on the track? Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: There you are, now, y’see? That's a little extension bellows on there. And a lock there, see. Now— Wanda: Oh yeah. Matthew: That's—bring it all the way out, y’see? Wanda: And you could use these for copy work and everything. Matthew: Oh yes. And you see, you get the same size—as your picture, when you copied. I like to copy a lot, but now—you know—I never— And so then you take this and you lock it, see? Then it goes through, wait a minute, then this, then this. And there's a back on this, see? And, ah—this? See how it goes? Wanda: That's a beauty. Matthew: Umhmm. Wanda: Do you have a darkroom now? Matthew: Well—I make one out of the bathroom. I have a table to fit over my—a toilet bowl with legs on the side, and then it goes right across the wash basin, so it, ah—it comes in quite handy and I've got everything—that I need in there. Wanda: You can do a lot with a little space, can't you? Matthew: Oh yes. Wanda: What are your pictures there? Matthew: Here are some, ah—here's a couple o’ my, my daughters up at the park. Wanda: Nice. Matthew: And this is down at the old State Armory—ah, you know, the one on Washington Street at the time? Wanda: Oh—oh yes. Matthew: And this is Derek—that's my son. He looks just like that—you know—he was just that size when he said, "Two cents, please." Wanda: That's a cute little thing. Matthew: This picture I took up in Syracuse, it's a—one of the buildings there. Wanda: You said you had one of the last horse-drawn trolleys? Matthew: Here's three of my kids— Yeah, with the horses. I went down—I haven't got it there now, but I went down to a—I didn't go to the Traction Company. I went down where the—Exchange on Court Street, and they said all those pictures—somebody took 'em. Change the office, there you know—I gotta go down there and see. He said some of the guys, you know, put out word to see if I could get one for you. Wanda: Oh. Matthew: See, they've changed, that's—this is a— Wanda: How come people are so careless with things like that? Matthew: Yeah. This. Another one. And there's a—let's see. See, I took pictures of the kids all the time. Every time I'd turn around I had a picture of them. Now there's another one. Here's a pic—you want to got down to—oh—ah—oh, you know the one. Let's see what it says here. Wanda: The Speedex? Matthew: These, I just happened to grab while I was upstairs here. Wanda: Ah, I wonder if— Matthew: See, I did all these—I finished all these myself.  Wanda: Yeah. Well, how did you get your—job that you told me about? Working with the insurance company and the— Matthew: Well, I don't know, I got it. Every time I went downtown, you know when I go now, I gotta—one of those cases, y’know? Wanda: Like this? Matthew: No, not that thing. Oh ,it's like—like on the davenport, I guess. Well, anyway, I'll show it to ya. I—I'd go down and everybody took me for a veterinarian or a doctor, and honestly— Wanda: Because of your camera case? Matthew: Yeah, ‘cause I had it in my hand, see. And I had one guy, says, "You know, I see you all the time with that thing." It was never away from me. I always had it—in case of accidents and things, y’know. And he says, ah, "You always got it there. I thought you were some kind of a doctor or maybe a veterinarian." He wouldn't say a medical doctor, he had to put me in a vet—with the horses. Hah. So that's what you had to put up with, see? I'm not good enough to be a medical doctor, but I, I could work on horses. Ahah? Well, people are funny. I, it don't bother me, I get a kick out of it, things people say. And there's two ways to focus this, you see? Now you put that on a tripod, you see the footage here? And then, see this little marker? Right there? Oh, right here. Wanda: Yeah. Matthew: You wind it up there—focus—like that—without takin' it out. Wanda: Hmm. Did you have any connection with Ansco? Ever—did you do any work for them? Matthew: The only thing I did for them, I taught some of their workers how to enlarge or develop. Wanda: Hmm. Matthew: They came to me—it was just a short course of about a—maybe six weeks. One—one or two nights a week if you wanted to come. You see, to fill out an application there it says, ah, to get in this department—ah—“Did you ever have any experience in, a—enlarging or copying,” something, and "No." So they'd come to me and they get the experience, then they go back and fill out the application, they get the job. So I go down—after I'd been doin' it for quite a while, and I apply for a job with the office there. Got talkin'. And I told him, I says, "You know I—helped a lot of your—your workers out.” He says, "You're the man." I says, "Yeah." He says, "Well, gee, ya—did a good job on it."  I says, "Well, now I wonder if there's any place for me down here?" I says, "I've done most anything in that line." "Oh no," he told me. "How old are ya?" I says I was about 45, 50, ya know. He says, "Well," he says, "you're beyond the age. We don't take men over 35." There's always an excuse. I says, "I know a lot,” but he says I'm too old now. Y’know. Well, he says, "We—we might let you know," he says. "Anyway," he says, "You're willing to work?" He says, "There's a lotta room in the warehouse." I says, "Whaddya do?"  "Oh—move racks around and, you know—and sweep or—sweep up the place."  I said, "Go to hell, will ya?" I said, "I know more about this than half of your guys in here," and I says, "You want me to sweep?" I said, "I don't, don't do that for nobody." Wanda: Rug beater. Matthew: Yeah, sweep up—oh boy. Wanda: How can you laugh about things like that? Matthew: Huh? Wanda: How can you laugh? Matthew: Because it's funny. I go there, y’know, like anybody else, and then they give me that stuff, but—but they seem to, they seem to learn something. You see, now, in the Army—they had a little place up there—“If of African descent, tear this off." Nothing on the other three sides. That's to classify you. Without any trouble, see. So I left mine on. And I had trouble—tryin' to—get back to bein' a colored guy again. [laughter.] I didn't tear it off, see? That's a fact, see. Now my boys, they, they never had that. They're light, most of them, y’know. They're like their mother, y’know? And, ah—well, you see the youngsters here. So we never had much trouble in the family. But I'm telling you—my time comin' up, they was tough. Born in 1892, so you know, that's close to the Civil War finishing, and then the Spanish-American War come in, y’know, the Japanese war—years ago, see. And—I mean the Philippines—years ago—in the United States, and as I say, that just went on. When I first went in the Army—they had a—unit for colored boys. You know, I say “colored” because, ah—the Black man that's as black as—? An’ like that, that's all right for him—he's a Black man. But if he had—if he wasn't color-blind—there's all colors. Red, yellow, blue, green, orange. Wanda: That's right. Matthew: So—I—I—I just resent it when somebody says I'm a Black man. I says, "You're color-blind." "Whaddya mean?" I says, "Don't try to supply me with a Black man.” I says, "You call me ‘colored,’ and like it." "I see your point." I said, "Yeah, well, see my point," I says. "Just be a little, you know, ah, decent with these guys." Says, "You don't want to—?” I says, "I've known that since I was born," but I says, "Don't try to classify me like this, 'cause,” I said, "That guy, he's Black and he wants to beauti—he wants Black to be beautiful." I said "OK," I said, "If I was Black, OK, but," I said, "I'm not black." And I says, "What color are you?" And he says, "Well," he says, "you can see." I says, "Yeah. You're a white man, but do you know you're white?" I says, "You didn't follow your dad around, or your grandfather? You don't know what little Black sister you've got, or little Black brother you've got, somewhere in the world." I says, "Now, don't be so—quick to jump up and call somebody what they are." I says, "Look—I know a lot of people—that passes for white—nice people. And I don't blame them because you get a better—opportunity, see?" And I says, ah, "Your father and mother told you was a white boy. You're gonna remember that. And that's what you're gonna be, see? Nothin' against you, but,” I said, "a colored boy is born, they tell him he's a colored boy. So he knows that, and everybody else." So I said, "Whenever they—they mix them up so that you can't tell a white boy from a colored boy," I says, "then it's come time for you to go and study something, because you—you don't know who you look like, for an instance—that are runnin’ around this country." Some of 'em get mad and some of 'em don't, but I don't care. They don't want to belittle me, you know what I mean? God made me and He made them, and He chooses to make me different than them—that's why He give me a brain—I'm gonna use it. And that's whether you're white or Black, I don't give a darn. See I—I've got—look, I'm invited now into a party—or not a party, but a wedding—of a—white girl. Very nice, and ah—she's gonna get married in St. Paul's church on the eleventh. And I'm invited and I'm taking—Suzanne with me, and then the reception, it should be in—well—up in Chenango Bridge, I think they said. Wanda: Oh, the Country Club. Matthew: Yeah. And I'm always in places like that. Now when I was a kid, the firemen would have a—a dance. The colored guys—”Now—? They don't want you there." I says, "Look, you know a lotta people there. You know some firemen there." I says, “All right, get a ticket an’ go." My wife and I went to everything and there was no—as I said, it depends on who you are and that, you know. But you don't want to be timid. You know what I mean? Because there's somebody knows you there and you're gonna enjoy—yourself, see? So I'd buy a ticket and, ah—bought a ticket to the Italian, ah—the dance they used to give down to the Knickerbocker Hall. You don't remember that—that's down on the first—you know where Henry Street, way down towards the river? Wanda: Yeah.  Matthew: Well, you know that building right next to it—Knickerbocker? They tore that down now, see? Well, anyway—ah—these Italians—I used to have two or three Italian friends, and they hired the hall. So this one fella—Joseph—he, he had a girlfriend and she had a sister, and we were all in school together—so he says, ah, "C'mon, Matt."  So I says, "Sure." I wasn't married then, see. Well, I was a real Indian. I had paint on my face and I had a big Indian outfit, a—you know—ah—big feathers? And I had, ah—pants—you know—buckskin with fringe on like that, an’ moccasins? And I used to do an Indian war dance, so they—they—ah—we waltzed and waltzed and danced together, an’ I danced with everybody. They don't, they don't know me—I got war paint on, see, and Joe, he was a—oh, a—a warrior and I was the chief. His girlfriend was a—was a squaw, and this sister and I—she was Columbia—you know, dressed like Columbia, like that. So after the dance and the grand march was over, they took me aside, and Joe and the two girls, and we had to waltz around and then they took ya outta the bunch, y’know, and there was this guy up there, you see. [Impersonating an Italian accent] "I tell you," he says, "Indian man. Big-a Chief. He's-a got-a first-a prize for men. Little-a papoose, he's got a, he's got a, for a papoose he's got a, got a prize. He's—a girl, he's-a call um a squaw and she's got a prize, a second-a, and the Chief, his-a wife, she's got a nice-a prize." So everybody took off their masks. Says, “An’ everybody, now, take-a mask off, please." So I just kept a, I kept my bonnet on, y’know, and I didn't, ah, or didn't wipe my face off too good, and then after the first few—I wiped it off good and he says, "Aw look. Attsa nice-a boy," he says, “I know that's-a Matt-chew—a-Matt-chew." And everybody went, "Look!" and I got—they wanted to know how I disguised myself, y’know? So I got a—I got a shaving kit and a mirror off here and a stem down here and a base, and it had on here—a cup for—you know at that time we used that— Wanda: —Oh, shaving cream with a brush— Matthew: —a brush. I hated to fool them, but that was the only time it ever happened, and the firemen—they had a hall, and it got so everybody knew us, you know, when we went down. And the funny part—we used to waltz, see, they had waltzes on. They had prizes and like that. My wife says, "I know that man. I'll tell you why," she says, "Hey, would you look at that shirt? The poor man needs a button."  I said, "People are human," I says, "so—the farther you stay away from them the less they know about you." But I said, "You mingle with them and be around them, they come to know you. And if you're different than the other ones," I says. "Everybody has got to have fun," I says. “They sell me their tickets, and," I says, "I'd sue 'em if they didn't let me go up there and dance." Well, that's how we had our fun. My kids are the same. Wanda: You have a wonderful outlook on life. Matthew: Well—I have to have it if I'm going to be happy. And now I go to work, you know what I mean? They say, "How—how do you get along, going like that?" I says, "Look," I says, "I let the day take care of itself. Tomorrow I don't know what's gonna happen. When it comes, then I know what to do.” I says, "Why should I worry about what's gonna happen tomorrow?" I says, "So that's the way to do it," I says. "You don't have to do what I do, but," I says, "that's the way I figure it out." And that's a fact, because you don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. You know today. Wanda: Thank heaven.  Matthew: [Laughter]. Wanda: Do you work with children all the time up at B.O.C.E.S.? Matthew: Yeah, I do want to tell ya. Instead of taking my vacation—I go up to the, ah—other place up there—to the Broome Developmental—those little ones up there, and they're—there’re some mongoloids up there and then there's a lot of, ah—deformed kids. They're all in wheelchairs. There's six hundred altogether—some young ones and up, old ones up to twenty years old there. They live there and they take a certain bus, go to—they're active and they can, ah, understand. They bring them up to school in buses, to B.O.C.E.S.—different grades. Wanda: And what do you teach them? Matthew: Well—the teachers up there, women, they teach, ah—ah, the little ones, ah—oh, ah—how to read and write and so forth, y’know. And once in a while we jump in if—they've got a few that we help out, that it's a little too hard for them, y’know. Bring 'em up and then, ah, we don't teach 'em a full course, y’know, but we teach them crafts. Something they can do with their hands, you know. And like—ah—I teach them to, ah—braid, you know, pocketbooks. [Matthew shows a hand-made wallet.] Wanda: Oh. Somebody did this for you, huh? Matthew: Yep. And, ah—they got spaces in there, you know, inside for the, oh—ah—well, you know—stuff there. And I, quite often the—I got the one there—the doctor—I gotta go to him tomorrow. Every now and then, when I get examined, see, I go to a regular doctor. I have to go to be examined now. After—tonight, after eleven o'clock you don't eat, and tomorrow morning you fast, and I go there and then they—draw the blood, y’know, and analyze that and then he tells me—he gives me a cup of coffee, ah—tells me to go ahead and— Wanda: Where do you find a doctor like that? Matthew: They do—down there, though, the girls. And he says, ah, and he says, "Well, go home and eat a—eat a horse!" He's a nice doctor. Doctor, ah—Grinberg. Wanda: Oh. Matthew: You know him? He's the best doctor in the world. Wanda: I would love to go to him. Matthew: He's nice. He's just like a brother since he's known me. He just pulled me through a—a bad sickness I had one time. So, ah—I fish and I bring him a fish like that, and I bring him squirrels and rabbits and things, y’know. I hunt a little bit, now. The boy does most of the heavy hunting. I, I just go to the—to the places that are close by, y’know. Wanda: Your family's around here, are they? Matthew: Well, not everybody. I, I've got a daughter in Michigan and I've got one in—in, ah, Dayton, Ohio, and I've got one in Chicago. I've got one in, ah—Los Angeles, and I have—how many's that make, four? Wanda: Yes. Matthew: And then I have two here. I have Peggy and Suzanne here. And then I've got a girl that's in—you know the grandchildren in—eleven, eleventy dozen grandchildren. [Laughter.] Wanda: Has this been home all your life? Matthew: Oh yes. It's, ah—since I was little. I came up from Jersey. Wanda: Oh. Matthew: When I was about nine years old. Yes. I like Binghamton. I—I knew most everybody here, and when they go fishing, you know, they—my son-in-law says to me one time—Jack is a, is, ah, is, ah, my son-in-law. He went fishing up to Afton. I know every place from here to Canada, you know? And he says to me, "Hey," he says, ah, "Dad," he says, ah, "I wish we could get up there where Jack was last week."  I says, "Where?" He says, "Up to Afton." I says, "What part?" He says, "I don't know, but," he says, "we crossed a bridge," and he says, ah, "I don't know, we went down by the bridge and got a boat." And I said, "Was it an old bridge or a new bridge?" And he says "A modern bridge." So we got in the car that time, you know, started, y’know. And he, ah, we got up to Afton. We crossed the bridge and I look down and I says, ah—ah, I says, "Is this the bridge you crossed?" "Yep." And I looked down to the end, and I looked down and I saw there was about ten or twelve PepsiCo bottles. He says, "That's the place! That's the place! You know how Jack is always drinkin’—big quarts, quarts of Pepsi-Cola." And there were all these bottles. So we went down and we caught fish. Went back and told Jack. And he says, "Jesus, can't get away from him." I says, "I know," I says, "I’ve fished every foot of this pond since I'm about seventeen years old." But, that's the way my, my wife and, and Johnny and his wife and Leo Payne and his wife—used to—travel together, you know? And, ah, they'd leave on Sunday. I said, "Oh, I don't think I'll go." And later on my wife says, "Let, let's go fishin'." I says, "For part of the day." So the first thing I'll say, ah, "Well, where would they go today?" "I don't know." So we go up to Afton. We go two places there, we don't see 'em. We go back, go to Whitney Point. We don't see ‘em there. So we finally go on up around Oxford and we come down. Every place we ever fished. And I find them—Whitney Point. They gotta be one of those places. [Laughter.] Wanda: Good a way as any, isn't it? Matthew: Oh yes—umhmm. But as I said, I know, I know Binghamton—way, way back.  Wanda: I think if, if you'd like, we could do this again, could we? Matthew: Anytime, sure. Wanda: I'm so grateful for the interview you've given. Matthew: Oh, I've enjoyed your company too. We had a lot of fun. We relaxed and— Wanda: You bet. Matthew: I'm not crazy, I'm just silly. [Laughter.] *[Correction: Professor Palze was the violin teacher.] ⁺ [Roots by Alex Haley.] [The introduction to this interview was accidentally erased. The subject is Matthew Alston, residing at 150 Moeller Street, Binghamton, NY.] Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Matthew Alston Subject The topic of the resource Alston, Matthew -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Musicians -- Interviews; Orchestra; Jazz; Photographers; Discrimination; Arlington Hotel; Bennett Hotel Description An account of the resource Matthew Alston discusses his early interest in the violin and creating a small orchestra after returning home from World War I and then later a Dixie Jazz Band. He details how he became interested in photography, his first camera, which was a Colony, one of Ansco's first cameras and how it came into his possession. He discusses taking a correspondence course for photography. He speaks of taking photographs of Willis Kilmer's race horse, for the local newspaper, being hired by the government as a photographer, and taking photographs of buildings and landscapes in his free time. He talks about his photography equipment and film processing. He discusses his ancestors and family and the prejudice he suffered. He talks briefly about his work with handicapped children. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 65A ; Recording 65B ; Recording 65C Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alston, Matthew ; Wood, Wanda Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-30 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 33:09 Minutes ; 12:25 Minutes ; 33:29 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1c4a974523c5fe82804cc82aa5c9966f.jpg f3a5133899f8375ed144f5ca9c803eb9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/68ab30d39a0c9811c453ac4259d5525a.mp3 5c17c9db6b0e7f2db8d79d0f6d21162c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-08-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed M. Stanton (Medford Stanton) Evans, 1934-2015 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Medford Stanton Evans was an educator, journalist and author. Stanton was an influential figure behind the modern conservative movement. He received his Bachelor's degree in English from Yale University and his Master's degree in Economics from New York University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Medford Stanton Evans was an educator, journalist, and author. Stanton was an influential figure behind the modern conservative movement. He received his Bachelor's degree in English from Yale University and his Master's degree in Economics from New York University. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Beat Writers; Communism; The Goldwater Movement; Free Speech Movement; Change agents; Vietnam policies; College students; Activism ;Peace Corps; Conservatives; Trust; Lyndon B. Johnson; The Hollywood Ten; Joseph McCarthy; Richard Nixon; Birch Bayh; FBI surveillance.\n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15299,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16119544],"9":0,"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,3355443],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Beat Writers; Communism; The Goldwater Movement; Free Speech Movement; Change agents; liberals; Civil War; Ken Burns; Edmund Muskie; Vietnam policies; College students; Activism; Peace Corps; Voluntarism; Conservatives; Trust; Lyndon B. Johnson; The Hollywood Ten; Joseph McCarthy; Richard Nixon; Birch Bayh; FBI surveillance Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 113:29 Subject LCSH Journalists; Authors; Evans, M. Stanton (Medford Stanton), 1934-2015--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: M. Stanton Evans Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 6 August 2009 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Again, thank you very much. I will be sending a waiver form too, and you will sign it and then you will see the editing before it is ever. ME (00:00:11): Now, how is this an oral interview subject? Are you just going to publish the interviews, are you making a book from the interviews? SM (00:00:17): Well, no, I am actually making a book from the interviews. I take the picture of each individual in the ambiance, the special moment. That is why I like to interview in person. A few people I have interviewed over the phone, and those people I have met and I have taken their picture, so I can feel comfortable with interview them over the phone. This is an oral history project, but I have written a prologue and an epilogue already and I have written that and it is a lot about me and the magic moments for me as a boomer. This is really for an education for students and for general public to read about the boomer generation, some of the questions I ask. I guess it is also discovery for me, because I remember being in psychology classes. I am trying to still discover who I am as a boomer, and this generation I grew up in, I am fascinated by it. ME (00:01:13): I think your generation is more introspective than mine. SM (00:01:18): Tell you what, I am going to leave this close to you, so speak loud. ME (00:01:22): I will get closer up and closer to you. SM (00:01:25): What? Continue on, right on that note there about the introspective. ME (00:01:29): Well, I am looking, every generation has its own introspection, but our era, the era that is chronicled in this book you have, mine here from long ago, was we were very focused on things outside ourselves. Particularly, I am talking late forties, early (19)50s, I was class of (19)55 college. This was the very height of the coal. Korea was going, and all the McCarthy stuff was going on. There were huge battles being fought, all related to this coal question and the survival of the free world. These are the communists. That riveted our attention and everything we did was kind of, not everything, but a lot of what we did was linked to that. Certainly, in my own case, since this is some of biographical, that was the number one issue for me, as opposed to my intensity for something. That is kind of what I meant by that. SM (00:02:43): Right. When you think of the boomer generation, and again, these are the young people born between, and I think we made a few... ME (00:02:50): After the war, right? SM (00:02:53): Yeah, born right after the war up to 1964. ME (00:02:59): Yeah. That is a 20-year span. SM (00:02:59): Yes. ME (00:02:59): End of the war. SM (00:03:03): Yeah. What are your thoughts? If you look at that group of young people that were in college in the early, they would have graduated beginning in around 1965 from high school, and they would have continued for the next 22 years, basically, graduating from high school, going off to college, and they were involved in all these activities. When you look at the bloomer generation, what would you consider their strengths and weaknesses as a generation of 74 million? I know it is very general, but... ME (00:03:33): Yeah. Well, again, the difference in perspective, and I told you this over the phone, that I had never really thought about these matters so much in generational terms. Certainly, that enters in. There is always the tension between the older people and the younger people. That is just built into the situation. I was much more focused, picking up what we were just talking about a minute ago, on the issue aspect of things. That is, there was not so much how old people were, it is where they stood philosophically. When I was in my late teens and early twenties, in college and just out of college, I was much more focused on aligning myself with other people who thought as I did, as opposed to how old these people were. Some of them were quite old. Some of them were 60, 70 something years old then. Some of them were my age, and some of them were in between. It was much more a question of substance, of philosophy, of policy. Then the generational part of it kind of flowed from the avenue, but the generational thing was then itself divided by that. Of course, you have, and I am sure you know this, you had really on the campuses in the (19)60s, which is this book was written in 1961, before a lot of stuff happened in the (19)60s, you really had two different things going on the campuses. One was just one we have all read about, the SDS, and the new left, and the free speech movement, and all of that glorified in the Ken Kesey novels, and the literature of the times, about all the flower people and so forth and so on. That was sort of all on the left end of things to the degree had any philosophical meaning. Then there were whole other thing on the campuses of the conservative kids, Young Americans for Freedom, the Universal Studies Institute, Young Republicans. I read about those groups in this book, people on this campus way back when. Of course, a lot more happened after that book came up. You really had two different things within the same generation, left versus right. You had all the kids who followed Gene McCarthy, but you had a bunch of other kids who followed Barry Goldwater. These were the forces that were contending for leadership politically and intellectually. Those groups continued fighting through all the intervening years, after the Reagan era, and even into today. That is kind of the way I looked at it. SM (00:07:12): It is interesting. I do this in every interview, one of the first questions centers on commentary made by Newt Gingrich and George Will, who are the most well-known commentators on the boomers in the 1990s. Basically, they would, in every chance they could get, whether it be an article in of a magazine or on television, take a shot at the boomer generation for the breakdown of American society in so many ways, whether it be the breakdown of the American family, the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority, the divisions that really came about that continue today. Do you think their commentary was fair to attack that 74 million boomers? ME (00:07:58): I have to hedge on that a bit, because I am not familiar with what they have said, but based on your paraphrase, I do not agree with that. I do not believe quite apart from you and George, that is another, them personally is another question, I do not believe that the problems that we confront in American society were created by that group of people. They were there long before. There had been a long history of philosophical breakdown in American culture for decades before any of these people were ever born. Bill Buckley's book, God and Man at Yale, came out in 1951. SM (00:08:52): Great book. ME (00:08:53): It is. SM (00:08:54): I have a first edition. ME (00:08:55): I was there when it came out. It is a very, I felt a very accurate indictment of what was then happening in Yale in 1951 or (19)50. That was long before these people ever made the scene. To pin it on them, well, some of them made it worse, some of them continued it, some of them whatever, manifested it, but there are others who opposed it in that same generation. That is the side that I was on, and the opposing side. That was the side that produced Goldwater and Reagan. Not an inconsequential movement that you produced with Ronald Reagan. That is where it came from. That is how I look at it. SM (00:09:50): When you look at that period that you have written about, the McCarthy era, and certainly Buckley back in (19)51, the early boomers were like six, seven years old at that time. It was very, for them to grasp much, but I can still remember as a little boy, watching that Black and white TV on the McCarthy hearings, being on the floor and my mother's in the kitchen, and having him say things to people who were testifying. I am not sure if that is subconsciously, I am not sure if I am one of the millions of baby boomers that were on the floor of the living room as the mother was doing her damn things when it was on television, whether that subconsciously went into boomers in any way in their youth. When you look at boomers, the question I want to ask is, boomers really questioned authority, a lot of them did. Again, maybe only 50 percent, but a lot of them questioned authority and challenged the status quo. That was the area that the beat writers came about. Some people will say the beat writers really had a subconscious or early influence, because they really did not respect authority and they wanted to speak up and be different. I do not know. ME (00:11:01): I remember them very well. I remember Kerouac... SM (00:11:02): Right. ME (00:11:02): Ginsburg and so on. Yeah. SM (00:11:06): Some people even say the (19)60s began with the beats, but what are your thoughts on that (19)50s era that could have had a negative influence on the early elementary school? ME (00:11:17): Well, I think that, I do not know. Again, I guess my approach is so different, it is hard for me to kind of put it in this chronological framework. I see it as a long-playing philosophical battle, cultural battle that way predates the (19)50s. Some of the things that are were said about the (19)60s had been said about the 1920s. The flaming youth, the people who were totally disenchanted because of World War I, that generation, the... SM (00:12:00): Pictures. ME (00:12:13): Yeah, sure. You had all the same, everything that would have been said about the (19)60s had been said about the (19)20s. Then of course, you had the depression in the 1930s. You had a very, very serious problem there with a lot of young people. Communists appeal to younger people at that time because of disillusionment with American institutions. The sweep of it is very, to me, much broader and longer than starting with the boomers. I think they just inherited a lot of stuff. One could argue that it is within that group that some kind of resistance was mounted to these tendencies. Again, I go back to the Goldwater, Reagan, and the Goldwater thing was very much fueled by younger people on the campuses, and who would have been in 1964, in their teens or early twenties. They would be boomers. If you get it from 1945, these people, almost all of them, were born after 1945. They led to the Goldwater movement, which then became the Reagan movement. I know this from being on campus, I took a little bit of a generational approach, but mostly I stressed the opposition within these generations, on either side of the question, which divided the older people and the younger people. I was only 26-7 when I wrote that book. I was certainly at that generation myself. Again, to me, that is what it is about. SM (00:14:06): Yeah, I think a lot of people perceive the early boomer lives, everything really started with a free speech movement or freedom summer, when some of them went south when they could. They were 18 years old, 19 years old. ME (00:14:21): Right. SM (00:14:21): Although the majority of them were, I think most of them were, most of the white participants were Jewish that went south, and a lot of African Americans as well. That whole period, a question I want to ask is whether these movements that came about during this timeframe when the boomers were young, the Civil Rights movement... ME (00:14:47): Let me interrupt you a minute, Steve. You done, Mark? ME (00:14:51): Well, no, I found these. ME (00:14:54): Okay. Do what you can. ME (00:14:56): I can come back. I just have to drop Tina off at work. ME (00:15:00): Okay, why do not want you to do that? I will tell you what, do you have to go right now to drop her off this very second? ME (00:15:05): Well, no, I have five minutes. SM (00:15:09): I will turn this up. You can do whatever you want. My time is your time. It is fine with me, because I am here. ME (00:15:16): Thank you. SM (00:15:20): I think I was, you were responding to my question. What was the question? ME (00:15:24): I do not remember. SM (00:15:24): What was my question? ME (00:15:24): I do not remember. SM (00:15:29): Something, oh, the movements, the different movements. If you look at the bloomer generation, people will define it often as the movements they were involved in. ME (00:15:39): You are talking about free speech movement? SM (00:15:41): Yeah, the Civil Rights movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the women's movement. ME (00:15:45): Yeah. SM (00:15:46): Many of these were offshoots from the Civil Rights movement, the environmental movement, the Native American movement. All these movements came about in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s as offshoots from the Civil Rights movement. They often defined them within this particular generation with the exception of the Civil Rights movement, because it was already pretty strong. Your thoughts on trying to define those movements within this boomer generation? ME (00:16:12): Well, I guess that my big disagreement was all the folks you are talking about. It was very manifest at the time, and has been for the intervening 40 years, was that if you go to what was happening in Berkeley, Mario Savio, all that stuff, the new left, SDS, the Port Huron statement, on and on and on. The people involved in that positioned themselves that they were opposing the establishment, that they were hostile to the reigning orthodoxy of the day. They understood that orthodoxy to be liberal, as did I. They were very critical of liberals, and then I worked with the Liberal Establishment back in 1965. Some of the critiques that were made of the liberals were very stringent from the left, was that conformity and big governments, and centralized power, and executive authority out of control, and many-many things that conservatives had said in the past, many of the left were saying in opposition at Lyndon Johnson or letter to Nixon and so forth. For all I had with those folks was that philosophically speaking, they were not any different from the people they were criticizing. That is, they were, in terms of value theory, they were relativists or agnostic to put a mileage, they were not religiously devout people, except in a few cases, like the [inaudible] or something. Most of them are secular, agnostic people. That was kind of the, or liberal orthodox was also secular. In terms of political and economic action, they started out sounding different, but they were collectives. More power to the government, and more coercion, more welfare, more everything of government, obviously, going on now. This was all the same as the thing they were allegedly opposing, [inaudible] senator, who was secular agnostic collectivist, the very parts Bill Buckley made in God and Man in Yale 14, 15 years before. To me, there was no real likelihood that people of that outlook could do anything substantive to change the problems that we had. They could make them worse. They could commit violence. They could have riots. They could capture school buildings or blow buildings up. They could do things like that. In what way did that change anything for the better? I did not think it did. That was my belief then. I wrote that, I had a book, The Future of Conservatism, in 1968, in which I basically said in that book when I had part of it, what I just said to you. I think the history is one of that. SM (00:19:56): I think I know what you are replying, but I want to hear it from the tape. When the boomers said they were the most, I know I was one of them, and I went to college. Some of my peers felt they were the most unique generation in the history of America. At that particular time, they felt comradeship, in many respects, around different causes, that they were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. That they were going to racism, sexism, homophobia, end war, bring peace to the world, bring sanity, so to speak. Then as they age, take on leadership roles and their ideals would continue. Your thoughts on the way boomers thought, and again, I am not talking to the entire generation. ME (00:20:48): Yeah. SM (00:20:49): Most people say that 15 percent were involved in activism, but that is a lot of people, 70 some million. Just your thoughts on the feelings that the boomers had then. I think some boomers still think that now, even though they are in positions of responsibility. Just your thoughts on that kind of? ME (00:21:10): My comment would be repeating what I already said. I think your point is well taken, that there is a lot of people, and there certainly were a lot of people, there are a lot of people, who had such attitudes, but they were not the entire generation. That has to be kept in mind. I think that the only thing I remember from tour, I used to spend a lot of time on campuses. I must have been on a couple hundred campuses in the 1960s, debating these people, and trying to work the other side of the street. The one thing I remember very well is I go to a campus, anywhere, University of Illinois, or I think I was in Binghamton, and some point and all that... SM (00:21:54): Right. ME (00:21:54): A lot of schools up in New York. I would ask the same question. I would not only speak, but I would interview, "Talk to me. I would only find out what is going on." I used to write, I would write newspaper article about stuff. SM (00:22:13): Right-right. ME (00:22:17): One of the questions I would always ask, "What is it like? What is going on here in this campus?" He said, "Well, mostly the students are just really apathetic," over and over and over again, and they were. What you really had, and I wrote about this a little bit on campus, was you had a whole bunch of people sort of in the middle, who were just typical college students, trying to get on with their lives, and go to football games, and have dates with good looking girls or vice versa if they were girls, and have fun, and get through college, and get on with their lives. That was it. There were minorities on the sort of either end of this thing who were intensely committed to certain causes, the left being the ones that were most publicized. Part of that was the fact, what I was talking about before, they were publicized because they fitted the mental framework of the people in the media. The media folks themselves, products of the campuses, saw and the new left in the various manifestations of that group. They recognized, this is what young people should be doing. They should be out demonstrating for the environment, or they should be opposing the Vietnam War or whatever. That is what the media themselves thought. Therefore, they catered to these young people who were preaching that doctrine and holding BNs. I remember I spoke at those things, and they were very well publicized. The teach-ins and all that stuff on Vietnam, I remember it all very well. The media recognized that and they amplified it. They communicated. On the other side of it got almost no attention for the conservative kids, doing what they were doing. They were promoting Goldwater and they were later promoting Reagan. That was the neglected part of it, this other side, the other (19)60s. That, of course, the other (19)60s turned out to be, politically speaking, the winning side. Reagan wanted to be president. George McGovern did not. That is the way they would play out. There is an imbalance there and perception, because it has been, I well remember, it was just so typical of this thing, that the day after, I think I am right, the day after the Gingrich republicans had won... SM (00:25:20): (19)94. ME (00:25:23): In (19)94, the control of the Congress, both house and Senate, which had not happened in ever before in 40, 50 years, the Washington Post, I could go back and get this, you could pull it up to the website, like the day after the (19)94 election, had a humongous article and all in the style section about alumni of the SDS, where are they now? Hello? The republicans are sweeping into control of the Congress, and The Washington Post is glorifying former members of the SDS. Well, that is kind of illustrative, what I am drawing it all. The focus is over here, but things are going over here that are ignored until there is two. All of a sudden, where did Goldwater come from? Where did Reagan come from? Where did Gingrich come from? What is going on here? They were utterly mystified by the development, because it did not fit any of their preconceptions. SM (00:26:29): Has the media changed at all since... People remember back in Watergate, that Woodward and Bernstein created that investigative journalist mentality. That was very popular for a while, but now it is not. ME (00:26:46): Well... SM (00:26:46): It seems like it is disappeared. ME (00:26:49): Well, I would have a hard, again, lots of things that happened. That is where I spent my life, of course, in media. I am a media person and in journalism, so this was very riveting. The media changed in so many different ways. It is hard to generalize. You now have all this blogging, and you have got all the internet stuff, and you have got talk radio, and you have got cable TV, a zillion different outlets all competing for the attention of the public, which erodes the power of the few institutions that used to be the major determinants of public debate. They were very, how well I remember on the TV, the three networks, ABC, NBC, and CBS, the big magazines, many of which do not exist anymore, Look, Life, Collier, Saturday Evening Post, these were hugely important, had six, 7 million subscribers apiece, Time, Newsweek, and major newspapers, New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, and others. There is kind of a handful of really big media institutions that basically, they are in control, but they certainly influenced discourse in a very powerful way. That is all changed. Now, there all these different things. You have got stuff, I am sure you have noticed, and it gets a fair amount of attention. Newspapers are virtually going out of business. SM (00:28:44): Yeah, several going bankrupt. ME (00:28:45): Losing money, losing subscribers, including the Washington Post and New York Times. SM (00:28:46): The Inquirer had problems. ME (00:28:46): The Inquirer, you could list them all, Chicago Tribune. SM (00:28:46): The San Francisco Chronicles and all of them. ME (00:28:58): On and on, it is a long list. Same thing with the networks. They are struggling because cable TV has eroded. They are... ME (00:29:03): And because cable TV has eroded their audiences, although they are still by far the largest entities in television, but not the way they used to be. And you have many, many alternatives now that did not exist back in the (19)60s. And the internet and the talk radio and blah-blah-blah, it is such a totally different ballgame. So, it is really hard to get your arms around it as to what it all means, I am not sure what it means. I do believe that the media, by and large, I am not talking about the blockage because of who knows, but by and large there is still a strong tilt to the left. And the reason for this is basically that the personnel of these institutions come out of the colleges. That is where they come from. And so that they are, and particularly the ones that are interested in journalism, and I have taught journalism for a long time, there is a definite tendency to the liberal side and the surveys of media personnel over the years. It is an 80 to 90 percent voting liberal Democrats and very large majorities. I mean, I have not seen anything like that recently, I must admit and work for it. But that internal reflects the campuses where you have majority, the seven to eight to one in favor of the liberal position among faculty. And they are the ones training these young people then going to the media. So, I think that that problem is still out there in a very large way, but I do not really have a lot of hard data to back it up. That is just what my impression is. SM (00:30:56): Check to make sure the... because it is 45 minutes each side and we are doing fine, okay. I have a question that we asked actually, I am not going to mention the politician. I am not sure if I mentioned on the phone when I talked to you, but took a group of students to Washington DC about eight years ago. Came to DC to see a former senator. And the question that I have been asking all of my interviewees is a general question. And it is about the concept of healing within the nation because of all the divisions that took place in the (19)60s, many people have thought that we came close to a second civil war with all the divisions between Black and white. I like your thought on that, but the divisions between Black and white, those who for and against the war, the divisions are pretty strong. And whether we, as a nation have healed from all those divisions at that time in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, some people might say that the divisions continue right into the halls of Congress because they do not get along. But I do not think they got along even when FDR was president. So, your thoughts on this particular issue of healing within the boomer generation, and I say this because I go to Gettysburg a lot and I have studied a lot about the north and south coming together as they got older and some healed, some never did. Some went their graves never healing. And the senator was Senator Musky. We asked him his thoughts on whether we had healed as a nation since 1968, because that was a real rough year and he did not respond right away. And the 14 students would look at each other. And finally he had some tears in his eyes and he mentioned he just got out of the hospital and he had been watching the Ken Burn series on the Civil War. And that he was so touched by the loss of all the men and the loss of maybe an entire generation of children that we really have not healed since the Civil War, let alone the (19)60s. Your thoughts on both two thoughts on what Musky had to say and then secondly, just a general question on healing since the (19)60s and early (19)70s. ME (00:33:09): Well again, I have a different way of looking at it. It is a matter of the lenses that you are wearing. I did not feel even in the (19)60s that the country in general was that divided. But I did think, and I still think is that there were certain people within the country who were intentionally hostile to the traditional values of the country. I think that is still true. I think that goes on. There are people that are just the [inaudible] blame America, that if there is some controversy overseas, we are the villains, we are at fault. There is a lot of that back then. Those demonstrators on the campuses in the (19)60s, and I saw them face to face, were not against war. They were against the United States and they glory in the victory of the Viet Cong. They were pro Viet Cong. So, they were not just against the war, they were against the United States and they were against the effort by the United States to oppose communism. I happen to be pretty much a critic of the Vietnam policies that were followed by Kennedy and Johnson and Nixon. I was never a big fan of any of those policies. But these people, as I said, I went toe to toe with them campus after campus, after campus. I debated and I was at these teachings. I spoke at these teachings. There was an intense hatred of America there. It was not philosophical oppositions of war, violence of the country. But those people did not represent very much. Those people with those attitudes. Praising the Viet Cong, the people that rejoiced in the fall of Saigon, and they did rejoice in them, did not represent the large segment of American society. Never did. And I think that is gone on. I think that is continuing to this day. There are people that sort of ritualistically take a stance like that on any foreign policy question. We saw it very much in the opposition of President Bush. And again, I was no big fan of his. I think he made a lot of mistakes, but just the hatred of him and Cheney and went way beyond just policy disagreement. And it really was sort of an extension of what I remember seeing back in the (19)60s, this Vietnam stuff. I do not think that those attitudes, which however can be very powerful, represented any large percent of the American people. I mean, most Americans even then and now hold to fairly traditional conventional ideas and do not want to see any big revolutions and any kind of violence or any kind of Vietnam type demonstrations, even though they might be upset about the course of policy. And I have certainly have been, but I am not out the streets bringing turn cars over and buildings. And so again, it is my different way of looking. SM (00:37:02): How important were those college students ending that war in Vietnam? ME (00:37:06): Well they were pretty important. There was a synergism of the college students, the college faculties even more so and the media. And of course, the thing that was different then and which was driving a lot of that had nothing at all to do or very little to do with the merits of the Vietnam War, although it had many things longer than I thought. It was the draft. They did not want to be drafted. Once the draft was not there, you do not see that anymore. There is no draft. So the college students are not in danger of being drafted and sent to fight in all these wars. That is a huge difference. And so that was what was driving a lot of it. SM (00:38:01): Would you say that a lot of times people, I am using a general statement here, but that when you think of the young people of that era, you think of activism. The term activism. I am not talking about volunteerism now. I am talking about activism now. Now we have on college campuses now, and we have had since the (19)90s and the (19)80s, (19)90s, massive amount of volunteers. And if you read the literature on higher education, they say when you have greater numbers of volunteerism or a large percentage of volunteerism, that is the sign of a conservative era. I do not know why people say that, but- ME (00:38:35): I do not either. SM (00:38:39): But that volunteerism is when a person commits himself or herself to so many hours a week toward a cause. But when you think of activism, you think of a 24/7. It is part of being, the human being, it is the whole person's life fighting for issues and causes. And so sometimes people will separate that group of people, the Boomers from the Generation Xers and now the Millennials as a totally different group because they were more 24/7 as opposed to today's young people that are two hours a week or mandatory in volunteer work and not really activists. ME (00:39:19): Well usually if someone is [inaudible] I did not really know. This volunteerism thing is big now, right? SM (00:39:25): It has been big for over 20 years. ME (00:39:27): Oh, it shows how much I know, because I was not aware of that. I knew it was out and how big it was. And that is good. I do not think there is anything particularly conservative about it, but [inaudible] volunteer with a Peace Corps or Action or whatever and that might or might not be conservative [inaudible] But if [inaudible] by desire to help other people, that is a good thing. And philosophically, and I would describe it, but the other thing you are describing, the activism that is the groups I was talking about earlier. Those are the people who are committed, philosophically committed. They are not just partially involved. They are really involved. And so, they are the ones that fight on either end of the spectrum for dominance, in terms of the debate and rhetoric and substance of policy. And I think that is always been the case. Now, I think what has happened recently is a lot of the people that things went in two different directions. All the people from that era back then and now, of course would be in their (19)50s and (19)60s. SM (00:40:53): Yeah. Make sure we are doing okay here. Let is see here, how are we doing? ME (00:41:03): Must be getting done [inaudible]. SM (00:41:03): Should click friend. ME (00:41:10): That the people, alumni of that, all those fights that I was witnessing and in part as a participant in the (19)60s, which is the most intense part of this process that you are talking about, went in two very different ways. And by and large, the more conservative kids went off and one thing that happened is the conservative kids tend to be more oriented toward existing institutions. So, they are looking to make careers of themselves in business or law or medicine or whatever it might be engineering. And so they have very strong vocational orientation. So, they are not going to be out there all the time as activists in the sense that you just defined it. The more leftward kids are not committed to existing institutions. They tend to be much more verbalizers. They tend to be writers, they tend to be speakers, they tend to be the kind of folks that go into media and/or into back into academe. And so you have a buildup on the two sides of this of a very, very strong imbalance to the left on the campuses. And it replenishes itself as more of the people who graduated of that outlook, they tend to come back to the campuses and so what you have now is the tenured people from 40 years ago- SM (00:42:55): I am going to switch the tape. ME (00:42:56): Go ahead. SM (00:42:56): That should have... ME (00:43:08): There is people now who were activists back in the (19)60s who are now professors, much more so than conservatives, have many conservative professors are out there? And the conservatives either went into business or some went into politics. And so you have a lot of people of that generation are Reagan staffers or whatever, work for Republican administrations. And there is a real divide between the philosophical, intellectual, verbalizing people and the more practical everyday people based on these philosophical differences. And I think that is what you have got now in campuses and then that feeds into the media and then it is a self-perpetuating cycle. SM (00:44:04): How did that develop? How did conservative students really develop knowing that the issue of trust is something that seems to be lacking, in my opinion, amongst many voters? Because of what they saw failure in their leaders, lying from their leaders. I say this because we now know about Lyndon Johnson, the Gulf of Tonkin and all the fake numbers that came back that McNamara would announce that young people saw on the Black and white television every night. Of course, Watergate and Richard Nixon and then in the revelations even more recently of President Kennedy and his possible link with the Diem overthrow. And then, of course, Eisenhower had lied on national television about the U2 incident. And then you have got the whole issue of, even in later years, Brown Reagan was hard to tarnish. But the Iran-Contra comes out of there. And they even questioned Gerald Ford that there was a behind the scenes move to pardon President Nixon and it was all- ME (00:45:11): Well he did pardon Nixon. SM (00:45:13): Yeah, he did but the question is you cannot trust him, because now he is pardoning him. There was no trust in any of the leaders. What does this due to a generation of young people that cannot trust? ME (00:45:25): It makes you cynical and but it did not affect just... it affected a lot of conservatives kids too. They did not trust their leaders. You talk about the Kennedy overthrow Diem, I knew about that at the time. There was no secret. And that was just a terrible thing. And of course, it led to this collapse of all kinds of chances of resistance in Vietnam, because there was no leadership, the whole thing just went down the drain. But I knew about that. I wrote about it. I wrote a whole chapter done in a book I wrote in the (19)60s about what happened in Vietnam and how that was done. Well it is pretty hard to have much confidence in the leadership that does something like that. Each of the overthrow and murder of our alleged ally. And I have since found, I have a chapter on my book that they tried to do the same thing to [inaudible] to overthrow him, but that was thwarted but I have the documents that show it. So there was a lot of that kind of stuff going on. That was under Truman, the actions and State Department. They are planning to overthrow [inaudible] in 1950. So, it makes you very cynical and very, very doubtful about the honesty of the people running this country when things like that are going on, and I certainly, Lyndon Johnson, I am a native of Texas and I knew about Lyndon Johnson a long before it became common knowledge. Anybody in Texas knew how he got elected in the first place, 1948 when they stole votes down in Duval and Jim Wells counties and people called it Land Slides Lyndon he was called. And the Caro books. You have read them, Robert Caro biography of Johnson. SM (00:47:30): I read the first one. I did not read the second one. ME (00:47:33): Well it is all pretty negative on Lyndon and it was all basically true. And so that pretty hard to have much confidence in that that and again, Nixon [inaudible] here where he and Kissinger were bludgeoning two in Vietnam to knuckle under has come out in recent tapes. Well how do you have any confidence in people that do stuff like that? So yeah, most of the people I knew and was involved with way back when were pretty much disillusioned with a lot of these. We did not know everything we know now. We knew a lot. We knew about Diem, we knew about that and we were very disillusioned by it. No question. SM (00:48:28): The Boomers who, if they were cognizant again of McCarthy and what was going on in the (19)50s, the red baiting and that whole business. And of course, certain movies have come out in recent years, documentaries on the Hollywood 10 and certainly McCarthy. And then you get the enemies list of Richard Nixon in the (19)60s. And then you have got most recently in George Bush, the Patriot Act, that they all kind of come together, a lack of almost a fear of speaking up. Fear of expressing one's views. And if you do, you are either going to go before a hearing in front of McCarthy for being a communist. Your career is going to be destroyed by Richard Nixon's people for standing up against the Vietnam War. And then of course, Patriot Act, even George Bush. What does this say about America? And this is all during the time that the Boomers have been growing into old age. ME (00:49:29): Well I guess I would have to take everything you just said and go step by step through it, because I do not agree with it. And first of all, the McCarthy thing, I wrote a 600 page book going into these questions. And my brother did not call anybody before for disagreeing with him. I do not know of anybody, maybe a couple of people, but most of the people that he was looking at, and the charges he brought were based on information that came from the FBI about the infiltration of our government by communists and Soviet agents. And this stuff had been covered up. It was denied. And we are getting a lot of this information now from recent disclosures from FBI files. I have hundred thousand page of FBI files downstairs. And that is what my book is mostly based on and these files show that these people McCarthy was pursuing were basically what he said they were. They were not just dissenters from [inaudible] So you got that whole thing. That is a whole big deal itself. Then you get into the Hollywood thing. Those were communists. Now, you may want to argue that so what? But they were not just... people like Dalton Trumbo. SM (00:50:52): Absolutely Trumbo. ME (00:50:54): Albert Maltz. They were Stalinist agents. They were communists. They are clearly so, they had party cards. So again, these are not just dissenters, these are agents of a hostile foreign power and Patriot Act? What the Patriot Act tried to do, and I am not sure what the details of it anymore, [inaudible] We had basically in the (19)70s destroyed all of our intelligence agencies. And prevented the FBI from surveilling terrorists, hostile people in our country who were pouring in here, pretty much without any things to hinder them. They were running all around. SM (00:51:54): Is that because of Richard Nixon and they got tired of the enemies list and they give them a, "We are not going to do that anymore." That kind of mentality? ME (00:52:15): [inaudible] I was on that enemies list, by the way. I personally know it, because I was a conservative dissenter against Nixon. SM (00:52:15): It must be a badge of honor then. ME (00:52:15): Well I took care of us. I was never too worried about being on Richard Nixon's enemies list. But what happened was there was a crusade in the Congress led by Teddy Kennedy, Birch Bayh by who was then senator, the father of the Senators in there now. I knew Birch Bayh, I was in Indiana then. And the Civil Liberties Union to dismantle all our intelligence agents. And their position was that you could not conduct surveillance of somebody unless they were in the act of committing a crime. It was just mere advocacy or mere membership at the time in each party or mere membership in any other group was not itself sufficient to justify being under surveillance by the FBI, so called Levy Guidelines imposed under Gerald Ford. And these guidelines basically put the FBI, and then there was FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, these enactments, that was (19)78, basically put the FBI out of the antiterrorism business. So when people were coming in here to do what happened on September 11th, nobody was minding the store. Every entity that could have done anything about them had been shut down. So, what I have known, all those people had died September 11th, died because of them, so the Patriot Act is an effort to correct that. SM (00:54:04): You are a scholar. What were the books that had the greatest influence on the Boomer generation when they were college students when they were teenagers, college students, and young adults? Because there were a lot of non-non-fiction books written at that period that were directly linked to that generation. Plus, there were a lot of novels written by... and then you had the beat writers from the (19)50s. Are there specific ones that you remember? ME (00:54:36): Well again, you got a divide because there was the left and the right. And I was much more familiar with the right. I know the books that were read by young conservatives, they were pretty much the same for a number of years. I think it has changed now. But one of the books that was most influential, although it was mostly a political book, was the Goldwater book, Conscience of a Conservative. Very widely read and it was readable because it was short. It was not a huge tome and it helped promote Goldwater, but also promoted his ideas. So that was very important. But then there were other books that I remember reading myself when I was in college that were read by these other young folks, the Conservative Mind by Russell Kirk. Ideas have Consequences by Richard Weaver, The Witness by Whittaker Chambers was white is red and so forth. That was on the conservative side, on the other side. I do not know. I know that there were certain writers who were popular for a time being, but I do not know how much influence, I remember there was guy named Paul Goodman, who was very widely [inaudible] and I read a lot of his stuff and some, what he said to say made sense. SM (00:56:05): He was kind of linked to some of the beats too. ME (00:56:07): He was. SM (00:56:07): Some of his writing. ME (00:56:09): There was an overlap. I remember reading Kerouac and I was about that age. Kerouac, if he was still, I guess deceased. SM (00:56:19): Yeah. ME (00:56:19): If he was alive, he would be about my age. I am 75 years old. But back then I remember reading Kerouac, On the Road and those books. And I kind of identified with some of it. There was this libertarian side to it, the hostility to oppressive authority. There was a lot of that on the right, the Libertarians and people that they are still out there. I do not know if you are familiar of the Cato Institute. SM (00:56:52): Oh yes. ME (00:56:52): Well that is where they are coming from. They are very, very libertarian. They are very against big government. They do not like any kind of big government. They would be more, also, they would be sort [inaudible] what you feel about the Patriot Act. I am not, I am Conservative but I am also a libertarian. And I believe in the limited government of free markets and individual liberty. And I consider that an important component of my own philosophy. So, the beats had some appeal for people like me as well as the more left-wing types. SM (00:57:33): A couple of books that were very popular in the late (19)60s was the Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak, which was- ME (00:57:43): I never read that. SM (00:57:44): And then a Greening of America by Charles Reich. ME (00:57:47): I did read that. SM (00:57:49): And of course, Ken Kesey, who you have already mentioned and Wolf and a lot of his novels. ME (00:57:56): Tom Wolfe? SM (00:57:58): Yeah, Tom Wolfe. ME (00:57:59): Who was the right winner though? SM (00:58:01): Yeah. Mailer. Mailer was red. ME (00:58:03): Norman Mailer. SM (00:58:03): Um, Mailer, Mailer was [inaudible]. ME (00:58:03): Oh, Mailer. Of course, he had been out there a long time. He was actually the first. SM (00:58:04): Right. ME (00:58:11): All true, but all those books were out there, and I am sure had their impact. Wolfe is the one that is different because he is still around. SM (00:58:18): Yeah. Kurt Vonnegut is another one. ME (00:58:22): Vonnegut, mm-hmm, from Indianapolis, and Vonnegut's Hardware, I remember that. I was in Indianapolis for many, many years. I guess you remember that? SM (00:58:29): Mm-hmm. ME (00:58:35): And Wolfe, I could detect, even back when, like the Kesey book and the other stuff he wrote, very interesting, Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers, and Radical Chic. But you could see that he was an equal opportunity critic to me. He was puncturing. Radical Chic was about Leonard Bernstein. I always remember reading that. It was about this cocktail party being thrown on Park Avenue for the Black Panthers, you know. And he ridiculed them. So you see there was kind of a conservative side to Wolfe that became more and more apparent later, Bonfire of the Vanities, and so forth. And he was very influential. And, of course, The Right Stuff, you read things by Tom Wolfe, you do not see too many people whom he respects, but he respected those guys. SM (00:59:33): Yeah, when you think of the (19)50s and (19)60s, you think of Hugh Hefner, too, and Playboy, because- ME (00:59:34): You certainly do. SM (00:59:38): Oh, my God. That is an important... He evolved during the boomer lives. ME (00:59:43): Well, of course Playboy was popular when I was in college so it predates the [inaudible]. But, yeah, of course the playboy ethic and all of that was just a kind of this erosion of traditional standards where anything goes, and if it feels good, do it, and all of that. And that is contributed to some of our problems, no question. SM (01:00:12): I have a question here again. I have got some names here that I would just like you to respond to, some terms and some personalities, if you do not mind? When you think of the Vietnam Memorial, what does that mean to you? ME (01:00:28): It means a lot of people died in a bloody treadmill war, very sad, very tragic, because it was a war... And I am no military type, I do not know much about it first-hand, but I do remember all of that. It was a war, basically, that was fought without any intention of winning it. And there was [inaudible] Goldwater saying, "Why not victory?" Just saying it was the same thing that happened in Korea under General MacArthur, and so you have a lot of people who died, and it is a very tragic thing. That is what I think of it. SM (01:00:59): Why did the war end, to you? Why did we leave? ME (01:01:18): Because we did not have the will to win, and the Congress was undermining what little that we were doing. I remember all of it very well. That was when you had that whole bunch who were elected in (19)74 who were refusing... And I am no Kissinger fan, believe me, but he was trying to play both ends against the middle, and he needed more aid from the Congress, and they would not give it to him. So, we just bailed out once they [inaudible]. SM (01:01:49): When you think of the (19)60s, again, when these boomers where young, we were always talking about white people, white Americans, but certainly African-Americans was a very crucial part of the (19)60s. ME (01:02:00): It certainly was. SM (01:02:00): In fact, Kent State is very meaningful in many ways, because there were no African-Americans to be seen that day. One was near the... They were kind of escorted away. And what was happening on college campuses is that, in (19)69 and (19)70, there was a split where African-Americans just basically, "We are going to fight for civil rights here in America, and you can go ahead and be against the Vietnam War," even though people were saying the Vietnam War had more people of color serving than there were white Americans. And of course that became famous in speech against the Vietnam War. Just your thoughts, when we are talking about boomers and we are conservative students and liberal students to the left, where do the African-Americans fall into the whole scheme? ME (01:02:49): Well, I think you just stated it very well. I remember seeing, not that I knew a lot about it... I did not and do not. But it was very clear that the impulse of the anti-Vietnam stuff was white kids. You did not see too many Black faces, and I did not see too many Blacks there. They had their own struggle, and that was the civil rights struggle. And so, there is a real division there. I think you summed it up really well. And so there were two different things going on there. And I think that it confuses things to kind of lump it all together, but [inaudible] very different things. SM (01:03:36): Yeah, Tommie Smith and John Carlis with the fists in (19)68 at the Olympics. ME (01:03:41): I remember it well. I remember it well. SM (01:03:43): A couple of other things here? What do you think of when you think of Kent State and Jackson State? ME (01:03:56): I think they were, again, great tragedies. You got to remember that the... Jackson State, I do not remember too well, but Kent State, Neil Young, [inaudible] and Ohio. You had scared kids on both sides of that. The Ohio National Guard kids were not any different than the kids who were demonstrating. They were trying to control a scene that they could not control, and so that was the tragedy of it. And those demonstrations, it is a pretty well-known fact, were calculated to produce things like that. The hard left wanted these confrontations. They wanted police brutality. They wanted violence. They wanted open conflict. They felt that would spark... You go back to the days of rage of all those people, the [inaudible] and on, and on, and on, that is what they were trying to do. They were trying to provoke [inaudible] it is all there. It goes all the way back to the Bolshevik Revolution. That is the way you ratchet up your revolution. You get people out in the street. You have conflict with the police or military, somebody gets hurt or killed, that becomes the pretext for more, and it escalates, and that was its deliberate strategy. Those kids that died at Kent State, they were tragic victims of this process. Now who, in fact, is responsible for it individually? I do not know. That is what I think about it. SM (01:05:38): I know some of the students at Kent State that were involved in that. ME (01:05:38): Very sad, very sad. SM (01:05:53): When you think of Watergate, what does that mean to you? ME (01:05:55): It means- SM (01:05:55): What did that mean to America? ME (01:06:00): I got to tell you, Steve, it was the biggest exercise in hypocrisy I ever saw. Nothing that Nixon was accused of doing had not already been done by Kennedy and Johnson, and you mentioned some of the things earlier. They did everything Nixon was accused of doing, and more. The difference was, they got away with it. SM (01:06:25): And he did not admit. He made it much deeper by not admitting it. ME (01:06:28): Well, Kennedy and Johnson did not admit it, but they were not challenged. SM (01:06:32): Right. ME (01:06:33): There is a book by Victor Laskey called [inaudible]- SM (01:06:36): I think I have that book. What is the name of it? ME (01:06:42): It Did not Start With Watergate, and it delves into all that stuff. I mean, they had, again, I wrote about it in Time, plans to use the Internal Revenue Service to silence their critics, use the Fairness Doctrine to keep people from broadcasting hostile broadcasts, this was Kennedy and Johnson, using the power of the FBI to investigate people they did not like. They did break-ins. They did wiretapping. They [inaudible] rifled his office. They drove him out of the government because he was a dissenter. The list is long. And so, there was not a single thing that Nixon was accused of doing that had not already been done by his predecessors. The difference was that the media, Washington Post in particular, hated Nixon, and a lot of left hated him because of the Hiss case. And, of course, he was not any particular favorite of mine. Like I said, I was on the enemies list. I was chairman, at that time, of the American Conservative Union, and we had supported opposition to Nixon in the 1972 primaries by John Ashbrook. So, I wound up on one of these enemies lists as the chairman of this thing. [inaudible] interviewed me about it, and I was not in the least concerned that I was on list. So I was no big Nixon fan, but the whole Watergate was just a complete exercise in hypocrisy. SM (01:08:25): Obviously, that year, 1968, so many things happened then. Your thoughts on that year, not only with Tommie Smith and what was going on at the Olympics, but the (19)68 Democratic Convention, which led to the Chicago Eight trials, the Chicago police going up against protesters. ME (01:08:39): Mayor Daly. SM (01:08:40): Yeah, even some politicians were arrested, and even, I think, Dan Rather was arrested, or something like that. ME (01:08:46): [inaudible]. SM (01:08:48): And then there were a lot of other things. Of course, Lyndon Johnson withdrew from the race that year, just so much. ME (01:08:55): That is true. Well, yeah. I wrote about it at the time, and I would have to go back and look, but what I remember writing when I used to be was that what was happening in that Chicago convention, it was a culmination of a long series of things, was the crack up of the Democratic coalition. On one side, you have got Mayor Daly and the big city machine politicians who were supporting Humphrey, who was, of course, the surrogate for Lyndon. On the other side, you had the Eugene McCarthy people, you had the [inaudible] Kennedy camp, Bobby Kennedy campaign. And these elements were at each other's throats within the Democratic Party. And that is what that convention showed. And everything that went on there was internal fighting among Democrats is what it was. And that led, of course, to the collapse of the Democratic Party in that year's election and the election of Richard Nixon, with George Wallace getting 11 million votes, or whatever he got, which was quite a [inaudible] because that separated the South, the Old Roosevelt Coalition, it was all these things. It was the big city bosses. It was the left-wing intellectuals. It was the academics. It was the Blacks. It was Southern Democrats. It was everything. There was a coalition of all these people. That all fell apart in (19)68 and that was the main thing, I think, that showed. SM (01:10:43): And Senator McCarthy was the first person I interviewed for this process back when I started this and my parents were ill, and now I am back finishing it up. But I asked the question I wanted him to answer. I asked him, "Why did you drop out?" I just want an answer, because I have read his books and I know he still- ME (01:11:06): What did he say? SM (01:11:08): Oh, he still got very upset when I asked him about Bobby Kennedy. He said, "Read about it in my book." [inaudible]. ME (01:11:12): He did not like Bobby Kennedy. SM (01:11:18): He did not answer me. He did a roundabout. ME (01:11:18): [inaudible]. SM (01:11:20): I think that is the ultimate question. I saw him three times in my life, and that is the one question I think a lot of people want answered, "Why did you drop out?" ME (01:11:30): I do not think he could have won. I think he knew that. But you would know better. SM (01:11:37): It petered out. He was still strong at the convention. He had a lot of people there. He did not want people to be involved in the violent stuff because they were clean-cut. ME (01:11:47): No, clean for Gene. SM (01:11:50): Yeah. ME (01:11:50): I knew Senator McCarthy. [inaudible]. I did not know the other one. I knew this one. SM (01:11:55): Right. ME (01:11:55): And I got to know him a little bit later, let me say. Also, he was very different from his image. He was not a radical person at all, but he was deeply offended by the war, the way it was being conducted. He did not like Lyndon Johnson. He certainly did not like Bobby Kennedy. And I think what you ran into, and you would know better than I if you interviewed him several times, was that Bobby Kennedy, in his view, opportunistically jumped on a bandwagon that Gene McCarthy had created. SM (01:12:31): Yes. And I believe he thought that there was an agreement that he would not do it. And within a matter of less than three weeks’ time, he did it. ME (01:12:39): I think that is what happened. SM (01:12:43): And then he said, "Read about it in my book." I got that on tape, "Read about it in my book." ME (01:12:46): I think you know the answer to your own question. SM (01:12:49): I will go through these real fast. Just your comments on the hippies and yippies? They were two different unique groups? ME (01:12:58): Hippies and yippies? Hippies were part of this whole thing I was talking about earlier. They are flower children, going to San Francisco with a flower in your hair, and all that. And, I do not know, it was kind of a circus. I do not know what it signified of any great importance but it was there. You had a whole bunch of people drifting around smoking dope and thinking that that is the answer to the world's problems, then you have got problems. And we did. And so the yippies were a tougher breed. I saw some of them down in Miami Beach at the (19)72 Democrat convention. They were a little tougher guys, but I am not sure what they signified except they were hard... they were more the activist types. They were not just floating around saying, "Peace and love." They were activists who were trying to do left-wing things. SM (01:14:06): I thought it was interesting that Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin were the yippies, and I saw Jerry when he came to Ohio State. ME (01:14:13): I saw Jerry. SM (01:14:13): He was a really good speaker, and they were both very good speakers. One thing that is tragic, and I will put this as a note, probably, someplace in the book, is that Abbie Hoffman committed suicide. ME (01:14:23): Did he? SM (01:14:24): Yeah. He had $2,500 left. He was living in an apartment in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. It is outside Philadelphia. He committed suicide, and in the note, he said, "No one was listening to me anymore." And you know what is really interesting is that the Abbie Hoffman that we saw in the yippies and the Abbie Hoffman that kind of hid all those years, he had changed his look on his face. He had been working to save the Hudson for many, many years. People did not even know who he was. He had to hide his name because he was in hiding. And he came out on the Phil Donahue show, I will never forget that, when I was living in California. He was a man that was totally committed to the cause of saving that river, and people were not listening to him because they kept going back to that earlier period. ME (01:15:14): Yeah, in life, as in the movies, you get typecast. And once you have a strong identity in one thing, it is real hard for people to related to something different. And what you just told me is news to me. But Hoffman and Rubin, I did not know Hoffman. I met Rubin once, and he definitely was a piece of work. I do not remember Hoffman, but Rubin, obviously in some ways, was not serious. He was joking at just anything, craziness. But I guess it all had a serious intent. What exactly it was, I am not sure. SM (01:15:56): They actually debate each other later. ME (01:15:56): Did they? SM (01:15:57): Because he ended up becoming a business man, and Abbie was still Abbie. ME (01:16:05): Well, there you are. SM (01:16:05): A couple of other terms, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which, actually, they took over the anti-war movement in early (19)70s, they were very powerful? Your thoughts on them? ME (01:16:09): I do not know much about them. Then [inaudible] came out of that. SM (01:16:19): Yeah, but a lot of people in that movement did not like him. ME (01:16:20): Yeah. I gathered that from some discussion [inaudible] but I really do not know a thing about them. SM (01:16:28): Here are some of the names, just quick replies. You have already kind of mentioned about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, so I do not have to say anything more. Timothy Leary? ME (01:16:35): Yeah, he is out there with the flower people and the LSD and the drugs and tuning in and turning on and dropping out. What can one say? Anything where you get into drug things, it is a little hard to have any rational discourse about it because it is not a rational- SM (01:16:57): Your thoughts on the Black Panthers, which includes Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Angela Davis? That, George Jackson, Norman, the one that was killed in Chicago? Just your thoughts on the Black Panther Party? ME (01:17:17): Well, I think the Panthers were a very serious power. I had run into them on the campuses. They were pretty formidable folks. They would come to my lectures with bandoliers of ammunition, and so on. I remember that. Interesting that Cleaver, Eldridge Cleaver, I do not know about Kathleen, but Eldridge Cleaver seemed very, very disenchanted with the whole left thing. And what disenchanted him was he went to places like Cuba, and he went into Russia, and he hated it. And, towards the end, he became almost a conservative [inaudible]. SM (01:18:01): I remember that. And he also was living on the streets of LA, very sad. His wife is a lawyer, a very successful lawyer at Emory University Law School. ME (01:18:10): Is she down at Emory? SM (01:18:11): Yeah, she is very good. ME (01:18:15): No, that is the sad thing about some of those folks, and Hoffman, that they ended up like that. SM (01:18:21): Yeah, he was shot, you know? ME (01:18:24): Yeah, well, a lot of them died. SM (01:18:26): Yeah, Angela Davis is still going strong, a professor Santa Cruz. ME (01:18:31): Professor at Santa Cruz, right. SM (01:18:33): Yeah, Bobby Seale is writing cookbooks, or something like that. ME (01:18:36): Is he? SM (01:18:38): Yeah, just a quick comment on Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew? ME (01:18:40): I was never a huge fan of Nixon. Initially, I was not of Agnew. But Agnew, contrary to most people in politics, moved from left to right. Usually, particularly in Republicans, it goes the other way. Nixon is a good example. Agnew started out as a Rockefeller person. I do not know if you knew that? SM (01:19:10): No, I did not. ME (01:19:11): He was the Governor or Maryland here. SM (01:19:12): Right. ME (01:19:13): And he sort of identified with the Rockefeller wing of the Party. And that is one reason Nixon picked him was that he thought he had a way of getting Rockefeller without Rockefeller. And but then Agnew sort of blossomed as this right wing critic in the media, something like Pat Buchanan. And I met Agnew once, only once when he was Vice President. I wrote about him in National Review. And I think that he was sort of truly turned in a more right wing direction. And then, of course, he crashed and burned in (19)73 and that stuff caught up with him from Maryland. I do not know the details about that, but I remember that happening. And Nixon, I always felt, was trying to overcome the problems that he created for himself. In his case, he was always trying to reach out more and more to people on the other side. And I am not sure how philosophically-oriented he might have been. I give him top marks for what he did in his case, [inaudible]. For whatever reason, he was crucial in that case. I have been studying that case very carefully in a book that I am working on. And he was never forgiven for that by the left to this day, and I think he was trying to make up for that in some of things he did. Of course, he was very ambitious. He wanted to be President, became President. And it was always this balancing, and that is what I did not like. SM (01:20:53): Eugene McCarthy? Just quick thoughts on him, and George McGovern? ME (01:21:05): I knew both of them. I personally liked both of them. Gene McCarthy, I just happened to meet. We shared a dais together at some meeting back in the 70s, and I enjoyed chatting with him. I thought he was a very interesting and intelligent person, very different from almost anybody else in American politics that I have known, but liked him. And I supported him in (19)68 being a Republican. Senator McGovern, I debated in 1973. We had a great debate in Indianapolis at Butler University, 3,000 people. SM (01:21:53): Wow. ME (01:21:55): And I liked him. I do not know if he liked be. I thought he was a well-meaning man, a man of principle, principles I did not necessarily agree with, who maybe himself went through some changes later, and I do not know that. But I found he was an amiable fellow and I liked him. SM (01:22:24): He was a World War Two hero and he never talked about it. ME (01:22:25): He was. He was. SM (01:22:27): 28 missions over Europe. ME (01:22:28): Right. That is right. SM (01:22:30): I think he got a Purple Heart for that, and he never talked about it. ME (01:22:32): No, he did not. SM (01:22:33): He was a humble person. ME (01:22:34): He was. SM (01:22:34): John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, LBJ? The three of them, just quick comments? Just your thoughts? ME (01:22:47): The Kennedys are very, very different from their image. They were, essentially, conservative. And I would just point out to you, you were talking about Joe McCarthy, they were friends with Joe McCarthy. SM (01:22:48): Right. ME (01:22:48): And Bobby Kennedy worked for Joe, [inaudible]. And old man Kennedy, Joe Kennedy was McCarthy's [inaudible]. SM (01:22:48): And he dated Sargent Shriver's wife at one time. ME (01:23:22): Yes, Eunice. He did. And there are many interconnections there, McCarthy and the Kennedys. And Kennedy's people were very much of the ilk of conservative, Catholic Democrats. And Jack Kennedy did a mixture of things in his very short time as president, some you would not know. Some of the things he did were [inaudible] tax cuts, were used by the late Jack Kemp to justify the Reagan tax cuts, supply side stuff under Jack Kennedy back in the early (19)60s. And he had all the anti-Communist rhetoric and the Cold War-type posture. But then he had other people around him like Schlessinger and Sorensen. Certainly Sorensen had a very different outlook. So, again, a balancing act. They are all kind of doing things. Bobby, I think, was a much tougher customer, and maybe more calculating. And I think that is what Gene McCarthy did not like. But, again, if you look at the way Bobby Kennedy ran in (19)68, he was running on, basically, a conservative campaign. "We got to get away from big government," is what he was saying. "We need reforms, decentralization of tariffs," talking about stuff like that. But, of course, he was shot down in June of (19)68, so that was the end of that. But they were very different from the image of this Camelot stuff. SM (01:25:12): Your thoughts, quick at the end, McNamara, who just passed away? ME (01:25:20): I never cared for McNamara. I did not know much about him. I thought that the whole approach to the war, which he later repudiated- SM (01:25:32): In retrospect, yeah. ME (01:25:34): Yeah, it was wrong. All this body count stuff. And, of course, you look at it logically, and I am not military expert at all [inaudible], but if you have a war in which you are not trying to win, where you are just trying not to lose, and you do not really try to take strategic objectives... In other words, they are not trying to go out and take Hanoi. They were not trying to do that. SM (01:25:57): Is this the new one? You can continue, okay. ME (01:25:57): Well, again, remind me what we were talking about? SM (01:26:17): You were talking about McNamara. ME (01:26:19): Yeah. You look at the situation there... Getting back to World War Two there was a lot of, "So, today we captured whatever. We crossed the Rhine. We are now on the outskirts of Berlin." That is the way you measured what was happening in that war. Vietnam was not like that. No advancing through, taking Hanoi, or whatever. So how do you measure who is winning and who's losing? The answer is how many people you have killed, and that is where the body count. ME (01:27:03): ... answering how many people you have killed, and that is where the body count came from. I remember even McNamara was [inaudible]. He was seemingly very warm and very [inaudible] as secretary. SM (01:27:12): In my interview with Senator McCarthy, which in retrospect had just come out within six months after I interviewed him, he said it was a bunch of garbage. He was furious at him. ME (01:27:20): Oh, McNamara. SM (01:27:22): Yeah, at McNamara. Because he goes off in (19)67 to go to Aspen and ski, when he left in (19)67. He knew years before that this was a failure, and he should have told President Johnson and really been strong with him. ME (01:27:36): Well, J. McCarthy would have known a lot more about it than I do. SM (01:27:42): A couple other names here. George Wallace, thoughts on him? ME (01:27:45): Wallace was a major factor in what we were talking about earlier, the collapse of the Democratic Coalition, that and the Roosevelt Coalition. That had depended on holding the South. The solid South always meant solidly democratic. Thanks to Wallace, although it had been eroding before, by (19)68 that was no longer the case. And the whole nature of our politics changed because the South was uncoupled from the Democratic Party. Now, if you look at the majorities, most of the people are Republicans. By far, the largest number of their senators are from down there, in the South. Two Republican senators from Mississippi, two from Texas, two are from Georgia, two from South Carolina and so on. Well, prior to 1968 that was almost inconceivable. And now it is just wall-to-wall Republicans all over the place in the South. That was a huge change in American politics, and Wallace was a major factor in that. SM (01:29:07): Of course, he was gunned down as well. ME (01:29:10): (19)72 election. SM (01:29:12): During that- ME (01:29:12): Right out here in Laurel, Maryland. Right here. SM (01:29:15): Your thoughts on the Berrigan Brothers, Daniel and Philip? ME (01:29:18): Do not know much about them. They were just part of that whole mix. That is all I remember. SM (01:29:22): What about Dr. Benjamin Spock? ME (01:29:24): Same thing. I did not pay a lot of attention to those people. They were there, they were being promoted, but I did not spend a lot of time studying what they were doing. SM (01:29:34): How about Tom Hayden? ME (01:29:36): Same thing. Hayden, of course, he and I were kind of on opposite sides from the beginning. Port Huron Statement, SDS, I was [inaudible] statement. SM (01:29:48): Did you ever debate him at all? ME (01:29:49): Never met him. No. I debated a bunch of those people. Clark Kissinger and... but never Hayden. SM (01:29:56): What did you think of that Chicago Eight trial that had Bobby Seale and Rennie Davis, and Dave Dellinger, and that whole group? ME (01:30:05): Well, [inaudible] the same. Joe Hoffman. SM (01:30:06): Julius Hoffman. Right. ME (01:30:13): Yeah. That was just more of that strategy, provoke, provoke, violence, provoke oppression, and then that becomes a pretext for more protest. SM (01:30:19): What about the women leaders like Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug, and Betty Friedan. How important would you look at that era? ME (01:30:27): They were pretty darn important. SM (01:30:27): How important were they? ME (01:30:38): They were important. Not in a good way, from my standpoint. What they did was that they were part of this sort of process by which protest against the liberal establishment was always to be more left than the establishment. So that you had a situation where people of my persuasion were protesting against big government and that oppression and so forth and so on, and therefore we need more freedom. All of a sudden comes the feminists saying, with all this oppression we need more regulation. We need to do something to stop people from being oppressive to women, so they sort of... It was sort of a jiu-jitsu effect there of turning the protest thing in a more leftward direction. And that was what I thought mainly about that. I did not follow it very closely. It was kind of hard not to know about it, because it was everywhere. SM (01:31:36): Right. ME (01:31:36): But that is about all I have to say about it. SM (01:31:36): Getting down to the final one here. There is just a couple names. The importance of Tet. How important was Tet? ME (01:31:48): Very important. SM (01:31:49): (19)68. Because that is... ME (01:31:53): Very important. What happened was, and I am sure you know this as well as I, there was actually military defeat for the North Vietnamese, was portrayed the opposite by Walter Cronkite and others as this terrible defeat for the Americans. And that psychology was what it meant, [inaudible] defeat. And really started the negativism. That was also in (19)68. SM (01:32:21): That was early (19)68, yes. ME (01:32:30): But again, there was a guy named Peter Braestrup. I do not know if you know about Peter Braestrup. He wrote a book called the Big Story. His book, you might want to get it. Published by [inaudible]. He was The Washington Post correspondent in Saigon at the time of Tet. SM (01:32:44): Name of the book? ME (01:32:44): Big Story. SM (01:32:44): Okay. ME (01:32:50): And he, Peter, I knew Peter slightly, later, shows it in great detail. And he shows how the media took what was basically a Communist defeat and turned it into a Communist win. And he was a correspondent for The Washington Post. SM (01:33:07): Mm-hmm. ME (01:33:12): So it was huge. It was very decisive in terms of that war, because that war was shit from the beginning. And I, again, I have not studied it carefully, and I had not even thought about it in years. Was a liberal war. It was a war from the beginning under Kennedy and then Johnson fought. McNamara. Dean, Russ, all these people. It was a liberal establishmentarian fight. The best and the brightest [inaudible], who thought they knew what was good for Vietnam. And what was good for Vietnam was to overthrow Diem and get a different government in there that would be more democratic, and so they did that. They overthrew him. And I think McNamara, to his credit, was opposed to that, but Russ was there. And Russ, he had been involved in the previous thing over [inaudible] Chiang Kai‐shek. He knew all about overthrowing our allies. And that whole thing, all that presumption is a good example of why people became very disenchanted with American foreign policy, this idea that it is up to us to go around the world setting it right, everything that is wrong. Is not going to work, for one thing, and it leads to all kinds of wars and problems, and you see that continuing even Iraq and all of that. It is the same mindset. SM (01:34:54): Two thoughts on your response, one of them is things that I have read is that Eisenhower encouraged Kennedy not to get out of Vietnam, and that the actual day of the inauguration, [inaudible] at the White House, before they got into the cars, he was talking to Eisenhower in the White House about Vietnam, trying to get his thoughts on it. Secondly, in Sorensen's recent book, which I read, which I think is pretty good, he is a great writer, he claims that Kennedy wanted the overthrow, but he did not want the murder, and that Kennedy was furious when he found out about the killing. ME (01:35:31): You would have a hard time overthrow without a murder. SM (01:35:34): Yeah. They were supposed to be escorted out of the country to France, that is what Kennedy thought, supposedly. ME (01:35:39): Well, when you have a coup d'etat, the military, little hard to fine tune it. You have got people that know, military guys, that Diem, for all his faults, probably is a more popular leader than they were. Nobody elected them to anything. SM (01:36:01): Mm-hmm. ME (01:36:04): So get rid of him. And they killed him and his brother. So Kennedy had that blood on his hands. [inaudible] "I just wanted a coup, but not to kill him," so that is hard to do. SM (01:36:19): Three more names and then I have one final question. Daniel Ellsberg. ME (01:36:26): Well, it is funny, I read the Pentagon Papers. Why in the world... I am no supporter of Ellsberg. Why the Nixon administration went to the mat to protect those papers, I will never know. They were basically showing how Kennedy and Johnson had screwed up. That is what they showed. And why in the world would the U.S. Government go to the mat... the Nixon government, go to the mat to hold those back, I did not understand. And that is about all I have to remember there. SM (01:37:04): The thing I always remember growing up was the big four, the civil rights leaders and Martin Luther King, Wilkins, Whitney Young, James Farmer. Your thoughts on them as leaders of that time, particularly Dr. King and that group, that foursome. ME (01:37:20): Well, I think he did not want to [inaudible]. SM (01:37:28): He found Farmer. ME (01:37:30): Yeah. Cole. SM (01:37:33): Kissick, I think. ME (01:37:34): Oh, Kissick, [inaudible]. Yeah. SM (01:37:34): [inaudible] Yeah. ME (01:37:37): I did not know a lot about those people. Certainly, Dr. King was a tremendously charismatic leader. There were all kinds of internal things there. I do not know if you have read David Garrow's book about- SM (01:37:50): Yeah, I- ME (01:37:52): Between King and the Kennedys. And all this to-do about the wiretapping of Dr. King that was authorized by Bobby Kennedy. SM (01:37:59): Yeah. [inaudible] ME (01:38:00): And with the approval of Jack Kennedy. So very different from this mythology of all these heroes together, working with civil rights. Here is President Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy authorizing this, and they tried to get King to get rid of a couple of people in his entourage. One of them was a guy named Stanley Levison, and the other one was Hunter Pitts O'Dell. They were both commies. They were known commies, so Garrow says, and I think he i's right. And that is why they authorized a wiretap. And King had told them... They took him to the White House, in the Rose Garden, "Get rid of these people. They are bad. They are trying to corrupt the civil rights movement." And King said that he would, but he did not. And so that is why that was going on. Well, that is very different from the standard story about Dr. King and the Kennedys, and Bobby, and civil rights, and they are all in it together. Dion singing you got Abraham, Martin and John, All of that. The reality is quite- SM (01:39:17): I think it is pretty confusing too as to who was the one that encouraged President Kennedy to call the Kings to try to get Dr. King out of jail, because I read Sargent Shriver's book, and supposedly he is involved with getting the credit. I have read that Bobby Kennedy was somewhat involved. But I think the true hero of this is Harris Walker, because I believe it was Harris Walker who- ME (01:39:39): [inaudible] SM (01:39:40): And I know Senator Walker, and he is such a humble man that he would probably take the back seat to... He is the man. ME (01:39:47): Would not had a [inaudible]. SM (01:39:48): Yeah. ME (01:39:50): And Kennedy, he had a political [inaudible]. SM (01:39:51): Right. He was pragmatic. Yeah. Barry Goldwater. ME (01:39:57): Well, I knew Senator Goldwater somewhat, and I was a supporter of his, but he was an unusual person also. And he was very much his own man. He went his own way. He did things that I thought were not wise. I remember sitting in my living room, must have been 1960, what, September of 1964, in Indianapolis. And I am hearing a report that Goldwater had gone to Tennessee and attacked TVA. Was this smart to do this? And then he went to St. Petersburg in Florida and criticized Social Security. So he is going around almost deliberately provoking these constituencies, when he already has enough problems to keep him busy. But it was just his nature. He was a very independent person. And of course, I guess if he had not been very independent, he would not have made the race, because he never had a prayer from the beginning. He knew that. We all knew it. And he was a very courageous man. But he was his own man. He went his own way. Not always the way that I personally would have advised. SM (01:41:21): Two final things, and then the [inaudible] question. The Cambodian invasion of 1970 which ended up [inaudible] Kent State, [inaudible] the country erupting. There were rumors that we had already been in there, and yet [inaudible]. Nixon's speech at nine o'clock on the night of April 30th, 1970 was historic to me, because it set a chain up. Was it necessary to go into Cambodia? ME (01:41:50): Well, again, my knowledge of it is very remote, but basically what I recall is that the North Vietnamese were using that as a sanctuary. SM (01:41:58): Yes. ME (01:42:01): So that was one of the problems in the whole war was that they had these sanctuaries where they could retreat and they were safe. This started in Korea, where [inaudible] get back close to [inaudible], they were safe. And I think, as I remember, the Cambodian government was in favor of what Nixon did. So, the notion that we were invading Cambodia, we were not. We were just trying to stop the North Vietnamese from using it as a raft to invade South Vietnam. But that is about it. I do not really know much more about it. SM (01:42:42): The last question I have, and that is just about the music, the culture of the era. The movies, the rock music, Motown, folk music, social message. I interviewed Peter Seeger from the [inaudible]. ME (01:42:57): Pete Seeger? SM (01:42:59): Yep. Pete was raised by his father to say that making a name for yourself is not what the music is about. It is about making sure that the people- ME (01:43:08): [inaudible] song of Pete Seeger. SM (01:43:09): Well, this is actually Pete Seeger. ME (01:43:11): The Pete Seeger. SM (01:43:12): The Pete Seeger. ME (01:43:12): The man. SM (01:43:13): Yeah, the man. I interviewed him a week ago in Topeka, New York. ME (01:43:16): How old is he now? SM (01:43:16): He is 90. ME (01:43:16): Yeah. SM (01:43:21): But he is still sharp as a... He forgets. He is very forgetful, but when you get him in a room, he is like an encyclopedia. He does not forget things when he is not distracted. And he was taught by his father that the purpose of the music is for people to remember the words so they continue to sing the music. It is not so much that we are remembered as the musicians, it is that the music itself is remembered because of the messages, the social messages. ME (01:43:47): Well, certainly, Seeger, that was what he did. Those people were very skillful with it. And I am sort of an anomaly, because I liked a lot of the music. I am a big pop music fan. SM (01:44:03): Right. ME (01:44:06): So, I remember the (19)60s music very well, and I remember all the different... not everything, but I remember lots of different strains in it, and people who did it. There were a lot of things going on in the (19)60s music that really had nothing to do with revolution. I saw in the paper the other day, maybe a week ago, that Gordon Waller had died. Gordon Waller was Gordon to Peter and Gordon. SM (01:44:29): Oh, that is right. Yes. ME (01:44:39): And he was 60-something. Well, that music had nothing to do with... A World Without Love and Lady Godiva, those were Peter and Gordon songs. I loved those songs. Just good music. They did not really have a lot of social significance, at least that I am used to. But then you think of all the Dylan stuff and... And Dylan is another person who is, I think, in reality, is very different from his image. Dylan, there is an undercurrent in Dylan, had this very negative attitude towards some of these hippy types. And when you think... Do you remember his songs, and one is called- SM (01:45:16): Rolling Stone, I know. ME (01:45:17): Right. And How Does It Feel. I mean, think of that. Think what that song says. To be young, [inaudible], like a rolling stone. It is a very hostile type song. And then Positively 4th Street. These songs are not peace and love, they are very putting down people that he thinks are pretentious. And they are definitely people on that side. And some of this has come out in Dylan recently. I have not paid a lot of attention to Dylan. I was never a big fan of Dylan, but he wrote some really good stuff. Different. Different from what the conventional image is. So to me, that music, some of it is just good music. I like it to this day. SM (01:46:08): Yeah. Of course, folk music of that era, well, you had Pete Seeger, who was about 50 then, at the time that all this is happening, but then you have got Arlo Guthrie, and you got- ME (01:46:19): Guthrie. Woody Guthrie. SM (01:46:21): Joan Baez. ME (01:46:22): Woody before all of them. SM (01:46:23): Then you got Joan Baez and Tom Paxton, and- ME (01:46:26): All of that. SM (01:46:27): David Bromberg. Cohen. The list goes on and on. Judy Collins. Joni Mitchell. But a lot of them had the social messages. I get back to the fact that when the criticism of the generation has a lot to do with their mores and their values, there is a lot of values in this music, because a lot of the words come out. And even as you head into the 1970s, Black music is changing, because Marvin Gaye is doing What's Going On, and making criticism what is going on in the inner-city and... So, it is Black, it is white, it is folk, it is everything. And then of course, you go back to Elvis back in the (19)50s, which is against the modern trend. They could not even show his... That was the year of- ME (01:47:14): The Ed Sullivan Show. SM (01:47:16): And the question is, when people like that went on TV and young Boomers saw them, I mean, what are they hiding here? I mean, come on, man. ME (01:47:24): Well, music is Dionysian really, the desire to express yourself, maybe to destroy things if they are in your way. Music, rock and roll music, has a lot of that in it, there is no question of that. And of course it has the sexual themes, and sometimes the drug themes. But a lot of it is just music is music, and some of it is good and some of it is not so good. I mean, it just depends on... To me, a song like, well, let is go back to Dylan. We were just talking about some of the stuff he wrote. I thought it was pretty good. Pretty darn good music, but some of it I did not like. I did not like everything he wrote. And sometimes I thought his message was very harsh, very negative, but he was a talent. And so, some of it I like, some I did not. And so that would be true of many of these people. I would take somebody even like... You mentioned Arlo Guthrie. I thought The City of New Orleans was a great song. That is just a tremendous song. SM (01:48:41): Alice's Restaurant. ME (01:48:43): Alice's Restaurant. SM (01:48:44): Yeah. ME (01:48:46): But City of New Orleans is a wonderful song, really powerful. And it has... I do not know, what is the significance of it? It is a lament for the fading away of the railroads, and I can totally identify with that. My grandfather was an engineer on the Illinois Central, as you might have [inaudible] in The City of New Orleans line. And I think he might have been on the City of New Orleans. It ran from Chicago down to New Orleans. I think that is just a fabulous song and I can listen to it anytime. SM (01:49:27): The music of that era also, you think that Elvis was an American, but The Beatles were English, and the British invasion just changed American music. ME (01:49:33): Huge. Huge. SM (01:49:34): And of course, folk was here. ME (01:49:36): Well, Peter and Gordon were British. They were both British. SM (01:49:38): Cannot forget the jazz of the (19)50s, that we never really talk much about. That influenced some of the Black entertainers in Motown in (19)60s, and just so much here. When the best history books are written in 50 years after event, what do you think historians will say about the Boomer generation? I know we are talking about... I know you have already given your comments about the- [inaudible] ME (01:49:58): I think- SM (01:49:59): That we must be very inclusive of both conservative and liberal students. When we get beyond 50, as the Boomers pass away, what will they say about this era? The (19)60s, to me, ended in 1973 too. Because a lot of people think the (19)60s were really (19)63 to (19)73, because when streaking started happening on college campuses it was (19)73, and I will never forget Ohio State. Worked Ohio University my first year, they did come on up here... A friend of mine said, "The (19)60s are over." I said, "What do you mean?" "They are streaking. It is over." ME (01:50:39): You were at Ohio University? SM (01:50:40): I worked at Ohio University in Lancaster Campus from (19)72 to (19)76 in my first job. And they had actually purged the students out of Ohio University when I got there from 18,000 to 13,500 campus, and the branch campus were kind of saving the university as backup now, but they were afraid to send their kids off to that liberal Ohio University, which was much more liberal than Ohio State or even Kent State. ME (01:51:08): Yeah. Yeah. I was on many a campus in Ohio in my day. [inaudible] Antioch. SM (01:51:16): Oh, yes. ME (01:51:16): [inaudible] SM (01:51:17): Oh, yeah. ME (01:51:18): They got a liberal campus. SM (01:51:19): Ohio State? ME (01:51:20): Oh, many times Ohio State. SM (01:51:23): You were probably in Mershon, were not you? Were you going to Mershon Auditorium, or... ME (01:51:26): I could not tell you. SM (01:51:27): Yeah. Sykes Union had big spaces there. ME (01:51:27): Ohio Wesleyan. SM (01:51:27): Yep. ME (01:51:32): In Delaware, Ohio. SM (01:51:35): Denison University. ME (01:51:36): Yeah, I have been to Denison many times. Miami. SM (01:51:38): Capital University in Columbus. ME (01:51:40): Not there. SM (01:51:44): Wayne State. That was a Black school. ME (01:51:46): Yeah. Wright State. SM (01:51:47): Yep. Yep. ME (01:51:48): Youngstown. SM (01:51:49): Miami of Ohio. ME (01:51:51): Many times. SM (01:51:53): Yeah. ME (01:51:53): I was always- SM (01:51:55): Bowling Green. ME (01:51:55): Bowling Green. SM (01:51:56): Dayton. ME (01:51:57): Dayton, yep. SM (01:51:58): Yep. ME (01:51:59): All of them. Every one of them. SM (01:51:59): Cleveland State? ME (01:52:00): Not Cleveland State. I do not think. SM (01:52:03): University of Akron? ME (01:52:04): I think I did Akron. SM (01:52:05): Yeah. When the best books are written, what do you think they are going to say? What do you think, if they define the era? ME (01:52:13): Depends on who writes the books. I think that looking back on what happened in the 40 years from 19... 50 years. 1945 to 1990, that if you wanted to sum up what that generation did, it was pretty good. I would not knock it. That was the generation that brought about the fall of Communism. Something I never thought I would live to see. That happened. That was done by people at that age cohort, of course, it is a big cohort, it is huge, [inaudible] so many people [inaudible]. But that is not too bad. So I would tip my hat. SM (01:53:19): To the Boomers. ME (01:53:19): Yeah. SM (01:53:22): Thank you very much. ME (01:53:23): Thank you, Steve. I know you want me to sign this again. I will do it. SM (01:53:26): Yeah, want you to sign that. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Medford Stanton Evans Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Evans, M. Stanton (Medford Stanton), 1934-2015 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Authors; Evans, M. Stanton (Medford Stanton), 1934-2015--Interviews Description An account of the resource Medford Stanton Evans was an educator, journalist and author. Stanton was an influential figure behind the modern conservative movement. He received his B.A. in English from Yale University and his masters degree in Economics from New York University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-08-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.48a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.48b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 113:29 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c82b1cb1bd4ff5e6741ad60ec5d6984a.jpg f6e9da1d5db50a79f4ded92e4c4c7957 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/590afe30e6582c2956c60e405d5d0b5c.mp3 8e3d34cbd23894b85ec1ea4cd57a7d04 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-06-29 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Barone Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Michael Barone is a senior political analyst for the Washington Examiner, a historian, and a journalist. Barone was a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the longtime co-author of The Almanac of American Politics, which is a reference work on Congress and state politics. He received a Bachelor's degree from Harvard College and a Law degree from Yale Law School."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7047,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Michael Barone is a senior political analyst for the Washington Examiner, a historian, and a journalist. Barone was a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the longtime co-author of The Almanac of American Politics, which is a reference work on Congress and state politics. He received a Bachelor's degree from Harvard College and a Law degree from Yale Law School. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 89:54 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Political Science; Vietnam War draft; Generational gap; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Silent generation; Mainstream media; Nixonland; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Political Science; Vietnam War draft; Generational gap; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Silent generation; Mainstream media; Nixonland; Native American/American Indian Movement; Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. Subject LCSH Historians; Journalists; Barone, Michael--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Michael Barone Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 29 June 2010 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 SM: Testing One, two. Yeah. 0:0:05 MB: I will speak right into it. 0:0:07 SM: And I have to double check to make sure. 0:0:13 MB: Yeah. 0:13 SM: First question I really want to ask is how did you become who you are early in your life or your parents, professors, role models, people to look up to when you were younger? 0:31 MB: Well, I was- guess I recounted that autobiography, that little fragmentary speech to the Bradley Prize you know I was an early reader. My parents were professional people. My father's a doctor. And his father was a doctor, my mother taught school for a while, it was full time. Homemaker and you know, we encourage reading and, you know, my mother claims I was a very early reader, I think she exaggerates, but, you know, trying to recognize letters when I was two. And I think I have just got a mind a brain that is kind of hardwired for-for reading. As I recount there, I was interested in things like statistics, the populations of major cities in 1940, and 1950. So, when I got an encyclopedia that had the 1950 census, when I must have been about six or seven, I was very excited to read this and to make tables and write up things and so forth. I just, you know, clearly had a desire to know these things. I think I tend to sort information out by geography, I would study the Detroit city map, I could recite all the streets, that cross seven mile from Woodward west to five points I was the- we went on a trip to Florida and road trip in the spring of 1951. And at one point, came to a traffic circle on a town in Tennessee or Georgia. And there was a dispute about which road they should take out of my parents that we should take this one, I said, no, you should take that one. And about 12 miles later, they said, we took the wrong one. And I became the family navigator, at that point; and stuff. So, I always want to know where I am. I learned north southeast to west before I learned right and left. And you know, one advantage when I am doing things like my Almanac, American politics is that I tend to sort information that comes my way by geography. So, if I am thinking about Lancaster County, Ohio, you the congressional district, [inaudible], I may remember about the boyhood home of William John Sherman, and stuff from your account of it, I will probably plug that information back and be able to plug that in, because it is sorted out by geography. It is not random. And, you know, I think that is one of the ways we do memory, is not it, we, we, we sort things out. And we have some organizing principle or something. Anyway, that is the way my brain works. So, I was sort of blessed with you know. So, high verbal being hardwired for reading, you know, very nonathletic, so I was terrible at that, wanted to avoid it. My mother made sure I was you know, advanced in school she sent me started sending me to elite private school in the fourth grade. Because she felt the public school was not doing enough for me. And so [crosstalk] so that I could, you know, boy that went on to the boy’s school in seventh through 12th grade. And I was so you know, intellectually very fast tracked or turns out there were lots of smart people there. This was a boarding and day school; I was a day student. We [inaudible] Cranbrook School, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, through a lot of smart people from the Detroit Metro area. I mean, I sometimes like to say that all the schools I went to the public school I went to from kindergarten through third grade Warren E. Bow School in Detroit, always the student body size about a third Jewish. And I always say if you want your kids to get a good education, put them in a school, that is about a third Jewish or more. And, you know, whatever the quality of the teachers, they are going to be a lot of smart kids around, and it will be a fairly-fairly fast track. So, you know, this was, I was always very interested in history. And so, I can sort things by dates. I tend to remember dates. I remember the dates of people's birth because it is easier to remember their eight o'clock back, remember their age later. So, when you mentioned Gene McCarthy, I remember 1916 first election of Congress in 1948, from the fourth district of Minnesota, Ramsey County, and that sort of information comes naturally to me. 5:09 SM: Gaylord Malcom, Wisconsin. Governor. 5:14 MB: Yeah, he was elected in, let us see, elected to senate 1962. I guess elected governor 1958 and (19)60 Pat Lucey succeeded at [inaudible]. Or no, they did they elect a republican governor for a while, yeah, they elected Warren Knowles as the republican governor. And then they went to Lucey one, later, and then stuff. So that was, so, you know, and I just wanted to you know, I wanted to learn more. And I wanted to know, how the world works. So, I want to learn those census figures. I was fascinated Detroit was the fourth largest city in the country in 1940. And then slipped a fifth in 1950 even though it grew, because Chicago, Los Angeles outpaced it, and everything. So, I wanted to know all that stuff. And I wanted to know dates. So, I have memorized, you know, the presidents, vice presidents, kings of England, stuff like that, I guess it is an attempt to want to make sense of the world around you and understand it better. And by having you know, precise geographic locations and dates, you can understand a lot, you know, absolutely cannot stand the whole theme of progressive education, which first goes back to 1920, where you do not want to make kids memorize dates, that is so dull and tedious. How the heck are they are able to understand things if they do not know that the revolution you know, 1776, the Civil War is 1861. No wonder they take tests now where the kids cannot figure out which one comes first. That little mnemonic of remembering four digits, the first of which is almost always won, is pretty easy way to sort information out. And even somebody that does not glass with high verbal aptitude or math aptitude can make sense of it. If you just make them memorize the dates, and if you make them memorize that at a young age, they will have it forever, like they have their times tables. When you I mean, adults do not forget seven times nine- 7:05 SM: When you look at, this is the question- 7:07 MB: If they have to make it up themselves to draw little boxes on the table to remember seven times nine, they are not going to remember it, memorize it- 7:14 SM: You like the way that higher education and the basically how they divided generations, you have got the World War Two, the greatest generation, you got the family generation, you get the boomers, which I am talking about. 07:28 MB: There is a lot to that. 07:30 SM: Your thoughts on how you like the identification of generations based on years, or you do [inaudible]? 7:38 MB: Yeah, I like that. I think, you know, Generations, that book by Neil Howe in the late William Strauss, pretty good book. You know, my first response is, gee, this is gimmicky, but I think they are actually on to something. And one of the things I have noticed in politics, you know, and I have been trying to analyze politics, when I first started off doing that, when I was in my teens, that I had to understand the point of view of people who were a lot older than I am an experienced and lived through many experiences, the 1920s (19)30s, (19)40s, and so forth. Now, I have to find out, and I have to find myself trying to understand people who have not lived through a lot of experiences, I have, and what the world looks like to them. And I think the point of the generations is that it works against the conceit of political science. Political science, you know, drawing from the analogy with the natural sciences, starting the 19th century wants to make generalizations that are always true. And what I find is that you want to- this generation stop being true after a while because people will bring to different experiences, they do not have the identical sort of experience going through. So that for that reason, I think that is the kind of flaw in political science and, you know, some of the lessons that everybody taught when I first started studying politics, the political scientists were teaching them subsequently disproved. You know, the President's party always loses seats in the off your elections. Well, as we sit here today, the President's party gained seats and two out of the last three off your elections. Yeah, well, there is some reason for the rule. You know, basically, the President's party is stuck with the President's program, the out party can adapt to local terrain. But the overall situation is that, you know, I am going to pause to eat for a while and so forth, but I sort of identify as baby boomer generation, even though I was born 1944, two years before the date of if you read the Generations book, they started in 1943 is the birth year, which gives them Newt Gingrich and Bill Bradley. Right. Hey, Tommy Haden was born earlier. Well, and you have got you know, John Kerry who was born in the last day of 1943. Or the last month took the there is something to it because generations teams tend to have the same experience with events and things. You know it is similar at least they confronted the same events and you know like the culture war within the conservative and liberal camps of the baby boom generation responded differently to it. But they, you know, they were they were facing many similar situations. 10:43 SM: We think one of the things that comes out that both early dinners those born between (19)46 and (19)54, are really totally different than the boomers that were born from the (19)55 to (19)64. Because they experienced different things even within the generation. And they [inaudible] went on college campus, when all this stuff was happening either. 11:07 MB: There is something to that. Um, now, Barack, Obama is technically a boomer-based disability or not being a boomer. Yet, I am above the culture wars of the boomer generation. That was the gist of his 2004 convention speech. 11:27 SM: Yeah, people try to identify him as a nation of boomer- 11:33 MB: I think that is part of his appeal. I think that is why he has not around to personal animosity that both Clinton and George W. Bush did. Because each of them happens to have personal characteristics, which struck people on the other side of the cultural divide, as just absolutely loathsome. And Barack Obama does not have those sorts of personal characteristics, in my view. 12:00 SM: The question I ask you right now is when you look at the boomer years 1946-(19)64. And the oldest boomers are now in the age of 64 and the youngest are 48 this year. Please describe, in your own words, the following periods during boomer live- 12:20 MB: [inaudible] One of my favorite things, to say good news is that the baby boomer generation will die out the bad news is that I am going to die about the same time- 12:32 SM: Yeah well, define that period 1946 to 1960, in terms of just a few words, your thoughts on- 12:38 MB: Well, you have got a period of you know, you are in a period of postwar app, once you are in a period where there starts to be a real commercial market for adolescent products, forms of entertainment, you start to get a split between the universal culture of, you know, 1930s, and (19)40s, movies’ 1950s and (19)60s television. And then you get generational niches in popular culture. You get this sort of oppositional sense adversarial sense to society. You have the episode of the military draft in Vietnam, which is technically an egalitarian thing, because-because of all the exceptions to the draft, it was actually go back you will find that fewer sons of members of Congress served in the military in Vietnam did in the Gulf War, or the Iraq war. Mostly worked out very inegalitarian place and you had groups of people worry and are identified as elite people refusing to fight which has vivid contrast with previous generations and most particularly, you know, the World War Two generation. [crosstalk] -generation, a match. See, you get the breakdown of universal cultural institutions of which the military draft does not operate in World War Two. And the years immediately, thereafter, was one. 14:09 SM: James Fallows talked about that in an article he wrote back in 1975, “What Did You Do in the [the Class] War, Daddy?”- 14:16 MB: You are right. 14:18 SM: Which is in the older generation book, and he talks about it in a symposium with Bobby Mahler and James Webb and Gen. Wheeler. If you look at the 1946, right after World War Two, right break through the time the President, we have already talked about it. But before President Kennedy was elected, boomers the oldest boomers are just starting to go into junior high school when President Kennedy comes on board. What were the major events and the business that kind of subconsciously or consciously affected those boomers? 14:55 MB: I think they came out of a society in which you had unusual high confidence in institutions. Bill Schneider and Marni Lipsett wrote a book about the confidence gap and was sort of saying, gee America starting in the (19)70s, or there abouts, late (19)60s loses confidence in institutions is a sort of theme is this is a country that always had confidences in their institutions. I think that is maybe an artifact of the fact that the pollsters did not start answering those questions till about 1950. If you could go back and pull people starting in 1787, or whenever he might have found that lack of confidence in institutions or discontent with them, was the norm rather than the exception. 15:42 SM: Now that was in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. But that is [inaudible] (19)50s, correct? 15:47 MB: Yeah, well. 15:47 SM: Because it was just a- 15:48 MB: We grew up in an America where they had consequences institutions. And they felt free to crash them. Particularly since it was to their advantage to do things like not serve in the military. I am speaking a part of the generation obviously, not the whole of it. 16:05 SM: What made President Kennedy so unique, so to speak, was that speech he gave when he became president resurrection ask not what you are going to do, or you can do for your country? 16:07 MB: Listen, these people got to sign up in the military, including me, right? Yeah. 16:25 SM: James Webb, we met many years before he became senator said that one of the weaknesses of the boomer generation is in this fear of them that speech was hoped to be the inspiration to service and that Peace Corps service or good managers and service to America that serving one country in the military would seem to be the norm after that point. Something try that top, top of the week recommended, this is in 1981. If the weakness was the fact that it is the generation that truly does not understand the meaning of serving one's nation, even though you had a president who inspired you. 17:05 MB: Yeah, I think there is something I think there is a lot to that. You just did not think- I am blaming [inaudible] the people structured the draft that way and gave exemption for college students. You know, this was based on some analogy in a World War One, where the British lost all these Oxford and Cambridge graduates, we, I mean, I have military deferments to all my college years. I went to law school; they gave me a deferment for that. Then they said, we are withdrawing graduate school deferments. But if you have already got one, you can renew it. Why the hell did the government need me to go to law school, but that was public policy and I took advantage of it. Then I got a job as a law clerk, for a federal judge. And I got a different occupational deferment for that. And then they announced they were getting rid of occupational deferments. But if you had one, you could renew it. Same thing, why was it so necessary that I be at a law firm to a federal judge instead of in the military? I mean, I would argue I was better at that than I might have been at something in the military, but from public policy point of view, pretty weak public policy, I sort of felt that way at the time, but I took advantage of these policies. 18:22 SM: When you look at the (19)60s, do you see a difference between the (19)60s and the (19)70s was like, overall? 18:32 MB: Well, the seeds of you know, mixed cultures, adversarial cultures, rejection, lack of confidence in society, which were nurtured by particularly by [inaudible] in the (19)60s then become the common norm in the (19)70s. I mean, Daniel Yankelevits wrote a book called New Rules that really sets that out back in 1981. And I think that is pretty definitive. 18:54 SM: Do You think that is why Carter was elected? They were- 19:03 MB: Well, that is a different question, we were talking about public more or less competence institutions to get a sense of whether you are supportive of or adversarial to the country and stop those attitudes, change. You get losses of confidence and some of its related to public policy failures, Vietnam, stagflation. You know, you have Presidents who are very experienced people, Johnson and Nixon who turned out to be grave disappointments to the public. That means the value of experiences just come by voters. So, they elect a peanut farmer from Georgia without Georgia as President. Then they become discontent with him. Then elect a former movie star far as they do not want to go. Because Reagan has one advantage that he was, unlike most of our current politicians could speak in the language of that universal culture of which he had been a part is a brave person and radio, movies and TV. When the purpose of those cultures was to attract universal audiences, everybody- Reagan just naturally fit into that he was the sort of person who in his personal values and character background, fitted him like a glove. I do not think that language. I think Obama tried to do that in just 2004 speech, but I think that it is hard to access that language for politicians today, maybe the next generations will find it easier. Boomers find it hard Clinton and Bush were never able to do. 20:54 SM: The People that protested five to 10 percent of the activists who were involved in the movements and protested against the war, a lot of them had a problem with President Reagan and President Bush one, because President Reagan really came to power in California based on his battles against the students out there during the student protest movement of (19)64. 21:20 MB: Well, he had a large riot. Right. I mean, you know, the democrats said, we are going to do lots of things for lots of people, and especially for students and blacks. And the students and blacks are rioting. And the taxpayers say what the hell is going on? People are the beneficiaries, and they are rioting. We need to have some exertion of control. And of course, that was an electorate that was tilted towards GI generation and silent generation and all that. They thought this stuff was terrible. So, you know- 21:53 SM: Well, the law I mean- 21:55 MB: I wrote, I wrote a piece in the Harvard Crimson, you can access by the way, any of my pieces of the Harvard Crimson. Yeah, [inaudible] too. It is not a particular friend of mine. He was on the Crimson later. If you look at the Harvard Crimson.com. It has got everything in the paper since 1873, you can access Franklin D, Roosevelt's writing. 22:16 SM: Oh, my God. 22:17 MB: So, you can go back to my columns 1963 through (19)65 and see what I was writing then when I was a liberal, but had some qualms about some aspects of liberalism, or just sort of predicted that Reagan had a chance to win. Fo-for example, in California, which was not the ge- the general perception was his way to the right. This is another Goldwater. He is too, you know, the political scientists were saying he is too extreme. And my conclusion, looking at the data and looking at some special election results was these people are embracing this and they do not like Watson Berkeley. 22:54 SM: Because that people [inaudible] talking about fifty-nine- 22:57 MB: Before that there was the Free Speech Movement in 1965- 23:04 SM: (19)64 [inaudible] Mario Savio- 23:05 MB: Well, that was the initial thing was that Berkeley would not give a permit to people who wanted to campaign for the Johnson Humphrey ticket on campus on Sproul Plaza. Seems pretty harmless in retrospect, but that was there was there was going to be no politics on campus. It is kind of stupid in retrospect, but lots of people at the Goldwater people go there, let everybody go there and have a booth and whatever. 23:29 SM: I think Parker was fired by President Reagan. 23:33 MB: He was born religious. And I was talking about the knowledge base. 23:38 SM: When you look at the (19)80s in terms of the links to boomers, they are now getting older. They are in their (19)40s [inaudible] generation fee, and then in the (19)80s, and the (19)90s with Bill Clinton? 23:53 MB: Well, I think it is one of the things you see, and I guess sort of foresaw this going back to the late (19)70s, late (19)60s, early (19)70s. And, in my experience in the McGovern campaign, you know, if you are looking at who enters politics is sort of the peace movement almost entirely the Democratic Party, not quite entirely. It is affluent people. I mean, I was, you know, I was involved in precinct delegates and Oakland County Democratic Party and the-the working-class towns did not elect PC. They elected union hacks, and sort of party loyalists went back 25 years. And the [inaudible] areas where there were very few Democratic voters at that time, elected peaceniks. A small number of people there that were Democrats were-were away to the left and stuff. And that sort of thing goes on, you know, and that is a harbinger. One of the things we have seen, and it comes most prominent, starting in (19)96 election is the movement of affluent professionals towards the Democratic Party. Based on liberal issues on cultural. This is the liberal half of the baby boomer generation, and they are voting for the democrat on California, they are running for Democrats who are bankrupting the states to enrich the public employee unions. But hey, they cannot bear to have anybody say anything bad about abortions. So, they are going to keep voting against their own immediate financial interest. But more importantly, for a bunch of, you know, greedy hacks who are bankrupting a private sector economy for no good reason- 25:27 SM: When we go into [inaudible] time the first 10 years of this century, President Bush was the first to talk about and we are about a year and a half into President Obama; there has been some writers out there in the past couple of years that have said that a lot of problems in our economy goes back to that boomer generation, that-that-that want it now generation got to have it now. That is the kind of mentality where people get in debt. 26:02 MB: Well, I do not know, it is just boomers, I mean, I think you got a lot of people. You know by this decade, the boomers have been homeowners, you know, for quite a while, my wife, they suddenly went out and bought a home. You know, on a dodgy mortgage. You know you had a period a period of extended low interest rates, this is maybe a product of the successful anti-inflation policies of the Federal Reserve and various administrations, when you have very low interest rates, you got an incentive not to save and you got an incentive to borrow. Right. I mean, that is what the market is suggesting you do. So yeah, I mean, one of the things that is good, I mean, as a general proposition, I think, you know, our method of home finance, over the long run of history has been a good thing. And it has helped people get a stake in society by owning property. You know, you look at 1945, we were a nation of renter's majority renters, we have become a nation of homeowners, that is probably a good thing. We got up to about 65 percent, that worked pretty well, when we got to 69 percent homeowners that fell apart. Well, that should tell us something which is, you know, 65 percent about as high as you want to go. 27:22 SM: That would be a quality, then oftentimes [inaudible] it is hard to talk about 74 million people, but if you were to get the positive or negative qualities. Thank you very much. of the people, you know, are the generation as a whole, can you say? Like, you know, that technology is basically coming from boomers. Technology, talks about the housings of certain things that come out that make this generation look good, as opposed to bad. 27:54 MB: Well, you know, [inaudible] arguments made by a lot of liberals is they are socially, culturally more tolerant. That culturally marked our and there is something to that, you know, if you go back and look at the racial attitudes that Robert Byrd was appealing to at the beginning of his political career, when he moved from Kleagle to state representative, they are not very attractive to us today. They were not very attractive to me in the 1950s, and (19)60s, and so forth. So, you know, I think there is, you know, clearly an improvement there. And when the liberals make that point, they got a good point. You know this generation to self-indulgence, so forth, you can make that argument. I do not know if I want to go through the whole generation and so forth. You know, I think the boomers were the first generation to make their way through life and niche cultures rather than universal culture. We lost the universal popular culture. Just as, we were losing, you know, we lost the universal news cast. Everybody used to watch one of three networks. In my view, they abused their responsibility died by being claiming to be objective, while in fact being fiercely partisan. They got what they deserve. But it is technology as much as anything else that shames that. 29:26 SM: Do you think the media though and the time the boomers were in the (19)60s, we know how important television was the first time that generation or never seen the war on [inaudible]. 29:39 MB: Well, they had seen the violence attended to enforcing legal segregation in the south and part of the genius of Martin Luther King that he had a sense that when people saw this on television, you know, you have got the Birmingham rebellion in (19)63. That is the same year they could go to a half hour newscast. 30:00 SM: Do you think that- 30:06 MB: So, there is some of that, you know, illustrates the unpleasant side a side of achieving progress. I mean, if we had had that kind of you know, Jim Woolsey, he is friend of mine, wrote a piece for the Wall Street Journal, I think back in the (19)90s worth looking up. That is how the present press would have reported the D Day landings. 30:27 SM: Oh my god. Yeah. 30:29 MB: And, you know, it would have been the headline would have been [inaudible] resignation. You know, you know, and there were people, you know, we- newspapers made a whole lot of things about, you know, the 1000 deaths in Iraq, 2000 deaths in Iraq. I mean, in D Day, they- I forget the figures. But you know, that 24–36-hour period, you are having multiple people killed every minute. You know, and the public did not see, you know, footage comparable to searching for private Saving Private Ryan yet. At that time, they did get a still photography, almost all newsreels were set in black and white, except for the movie maker, George Stevens did color. But it was censored. And it was by a press that basically said, we want people to think well of this country. We want the good guys to win. The good guys are us. It was a we and they press. 31:33 SM: That for that-that [inaudible] changed in the (19)60s so this- 31:37 MB: The (19)60s changes- 31:39 SM: We were the bad guy and the view of many, I know Bobby Muller dropped [inaudible]. He went off the serve and came back to love this country even after but he then he started seeing the way he was treated in the hospitals and how getting better being treated. Just something wrong here. And then the-the bottom line is that a lot of veterans realize that we are not the good guy. We are the bad guy. 32:08 MB: Well, I do not think we were the bad guys. I- in fact, I was you know opposed to this war after a while and sort of Prudential grounds, but I did not believe we were the bad guys. I mean, I am, I am not ready to have a discussion with anybody about Vietnam, who does not believe that would have been better for the Vietnamese of our side and prevail? Because I think the subsequent history makes that very clear. Because the premier ruse, and wow, these people massacred people, they were a bloody mining dictatorship, you know, the government we were supporting was not perfect, by any means. But it was not like a totalitarian dictatorship. And, yeah, you look at the Vietnamese government today, things are somewhat better in a variety of ways, get started tolerable. They want to be a trade partner with the United States. That is fine. This is, you know, 40, 50 years later. But I think that you have to say that it would have been better for the South Vietnamese if-if our side had prevailed. Now you can then go on to make prudential things about was it worthwhile to do so did we do so in the right way ahead of them better to allow these bad things to happen as we have in history allowed other bad things to happen? I mean, at the end of World War Two, we cooperated with the Soviets by repatriating Russian prisoners of war, sending them on trains, you know, they were clean with their fingers trying to get off and stuff because they knew they would be executed in Russia. They were so we colluded in this process. As a price of winning that war, could we have won the war without the Soviet Union? Not likely, or at least with very much higher casualties and horror in that difficulty? You know, and so forth. I mean, you know, Hitler had not invaded the Soviet Union. You know Britain was already saved, but what about the rest of Europe? What about all this stuff, you know? So, history gives us gives our leaders and ultimately our voters, some tragic choices to make. Churchill goes on. After this, Hitler invades the Soviet Union. And makes a statement is saying, if the devil were to come and fight Hitler, I would at least find myself able to make some favorable reference to hell, in the in the House of Commons. You know, that was, you know, June 22, 1941. That is a very, very big date in history. We have to do that. And, you know, I think in some sense, the boomers are holding their elders to an impossible standard. You have to do something that is purely good. You have to do it perfectly well. And that is not the way history works. That is not the way human societies work. That is not a standard by which our World War Two effort stands up to scrutiny. 35:04 SM: I have one person I interviewed that she actually broke down. I am sorry. But whenever I see that scene in 1975, on April 30, of the helicopter going off the roof. At the very end, I guess Ellsberg [inaudible], knowing the people that could not get on that last helicopter have ever been in last. 35:28 MB: He was going to be tortured and killed. 35:29 SM: Yeah, tortured and killed. And we knew many who had served in the South Vietnamese Army were throwing away their uniforms, hoping that they would not be identified as being on the other side. 35:39 MB: So, it is like putting those [inaudible] Red Army [inaudible], the POW is on the trains. Where we actively did that, and World War Two, we proactively put them on the trains. We could have told Stalin; we are not going to do that. Our leaders had agreed to do that. And we could have well done that agreement. We decided not to because we were not. We did not want to go to war with the Soviet Union right after World War Two, for a lot of good reasons. 36:07 SM: This person said that, right around that same time, President Ford, they tried to ask questions after the helicopter, thank you very much. Yeah, he would not comment. He walked away, he would not comment on the [inaudible]. 36:22 MB: He was pretty upset. 36:26 SM: I do not know if you want to continue here- 36:27 MB: Maybe we should continue downstairs, we will be a little quieter. 36:31 SM: Okay. Say that again. 36:32 MB: The boomers held their elders to a standard of protection. You know, how can you criticize me for smoking pot when you are having a martini every night? I think the boomers continue. Many of them, particularly on the sort of liberal side have a sort of adolescent attitude that they carry far into life. We are going to criticize the old folks. And we do not have any standards, you know, we can go out and get drunk, that is fine. But the old folks have two martinis before dinner, we are going to give them a hard time. And we are going to hold them up to an impossible standard. And at least on the liberal side, and maybe you can make this argument about the conservatives as well. They hold the society up to impossible standards. As I say they do not acknowledge the necessity of making tragic choices, they do not acknowledge the imperfections of human activity and so forth and they-they make these sorts of adolescent criticisms of everybody that become kind of incoherent after a while and you know, um, you have also the-the delight childbearing. I mean, if you got back in, I think it read 1972 Richard Nixon and Wilbur Mills colluded in you know, big increases Social Security checks. The first one arrived October 3 a month before the election (19)72 they put in double colons which had to be changed, they actually heading into the highest inflation period in recent American history, they doubled [inaudible] with everybody. So, the benefits went away, it was a hell lot more than they should have started glitched when you get when you write a big bill. And the- you know, in some ways you can see that is and this is an argument Strauss and how making generations the, the GI generation gets paid off and allows the culture to be dominated by the boomers or the liberal half of the boomers and just sort of seeds cultural leadership and stewardship Johnson and Nixon did not turn out well. So, what the hell we will take our money and run and go off to the Florida retirement community or whatever. And the boomer’s kind of attitudes, including those by people who were actually older than boomers, you know, like the Gary Hart's in politics, the David Halberstam is in journalism. We were actually silent generation people by their own years. Take over institutions like the media, which then became mainstream media becomes very adversarial to the largest society critical of it. And a mainstream media which in the 1950s did not really matter much in the way of a murmur of protest against the legal segregation of the South in the way that it was enforced, often by violence and terror. Did not see fit to make much noise about that. By you know, the 19- by the 1970s, is now vigorously critical of American mores, as racist and is always ready to see racism and stuff, when in fact, the performance of the country in terms of its behavior had hugely improved. I mean, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1964,1965 were hugely effective legislation. You know, the mores of the South changed, I think, very rapidly. The public accommodation section, which is crazy grandpa Kentucky was questioning was hugely successful in the South, I think because basically white Southerners decided that if they have to serve black people in restaurants, well, they should be polite like everybody else and say, y'all come back. And what do you want, sir, ma'am, and so forth. And they just applied the sort of Southern culture of politeness, which is a cultural style that is fairly distinctive. They applied it, which they had always applied to white people, they applied it to black people, too. And, you know, what are we seeing now we are seeing migrations, for example, not very large, but perceptible of black people from Los Angeles, where most people are rude now, to Atlanta, where most people are polite. 40:54 SM: I got a whole bunch of questions here. So, they are going to go through fast and- Newt Gingrich said something in 1994. And actually, George Willis has written several times in some of his commentaries that, that the problems we have in our society today, the problems, the divorce rate, the-the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority, the beginning of the isms, the, you know, bad employees on the boomer generation, (19)60s and (19)70s. And so, the problems we have, in many respects are- 41:37 MB: What the data show is that sort of this these behaviors symbolized by people, you know, living together before getting married, which becomes popular among the elites in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. The ankle oval, book, new rules published in 1981, documents pretty thoroughly that this becomes widely applicable across the society. By 1981, the (19)70s for most Americans, the (19)70s were that the (19)60s were actually occurred in the 1970s. And what we have seen in subsequent data is, in a number of people have written about this deal, David Brooks has written about a Kay S. Hymowitz, it is in the Manhattan Institute has written about this, this sort of upper half of society by education, income, whatever, is behaving actually, according to the old rules, now. They-they may live together before they get married, they do not have children until they get married, they tend to have lower rates of divorce, they tend to, you know, be pretty stable and steady people. You know, divorce is hugely harmful to, you know, long term lifetime wealth accumulation. I mean, it is just a huge setback. And it is kind of the lower half of society, roughly, that you got these very, and of course, with huge situation when black people, you know, unmarried parenthood, serial divorce, serial marriage, which are, you know, harmful. That, you know, the children who come out of those situations have much worse outcomes than the children that come out of the traditional rule’s thing. And the, you know, divorce is, you know, a way to make the- you know, most people should be able to accumulate, most people in America do accumulate significant wealth in their lifetimes. And I think this continues to be true, despite the financial crisis and so forth, which has put a dent in the nominal wealth of very many people, but I think is not eliminated the path by which most people can assume can well accumulate significant wealth in housing and financial instruments in the course of their lifetime. All these measurements that say, well, most Americans do not have wealth, do not stratified by age, you do not want to have 25 to 30-year-old have wealth, if they do not know how to handle it, they do very poorly with it, as rich people about how they try to train their children to live intelligently with wealth and that screw up their law habits screw up their lives. Rich people spend a lot of time and effort and thought about that, because they know that it can be, you know, a screw up, you know, they can treat it like basketball players or something and you get a lot of bad outcomes there. From this sudden wealth at a young age. If you bet that the affluent people are basically, you are playing by the old rules that the non-affluent, the more vulnerable claimed by the new rules and you know, divorce kills your lifetime wealth accumulation. It takes to one household that has accumulated some wealth and distribute and creates to households with zero wealth. And dad is a [inaudible], you know, that burdens and income and so forth. It is just devastated. 44:48 SM: Sure. Overall, he made references to it, but the counterculture is very well known. There were two classic books that came out around that (19)71, (19)72 timeframe. And it was The Greening of America, by Charles Reich [crosstalk]. And then the second one was The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. I do not know if you saw that. 45:07 MB: I am not that familiar that. 45:08 SM: He talked about the different consciousness of [crosstalk], you think of a counterculture as long hair, bell bottoms, communal type of living– 45:21 MB: I saw Charles Reich. He was a teacher at Yale when I was a Yale Law School, I did not take his class or happen to be in his course. You know, and he was a teacher. [audio cuts] Right to welfare in the Constitution, we were going to have judges that were going to say you got a right to a standard of income from the government. Pure lunacy. I remember seeing him one time there was a little branch of [inaudible] on York Street in New Haven, right here Yale Law School. And I remember seeing Charles Reich sitting there, and he was cashing a gift certificate buying a sport coat. I guess his mom had bought him a sport coat or something. No, this is the man that wants to redistribute income, but he is still getting gifts from his gifts from his family. They have an interesting counterculture, is not it? 46:13 SM: I think he is actually living in California right now. 46:15 MB: Yeah. He has been out of public eye for a long time. And that book, I think, is pure lunacy. I mean, well, it basically makes the argument that the problems of production are all solved. We are going to have all live in affluence without any effort, whatever. And now, we can just sit around and groove. I mean, what an adolescent view of life, it is the adolescent is boys’ dope, it was mother's still buying him a sport coat? It is funny that a-a lot of people like that would wear a sport coat. 46:45 SM: You have made a comment to that a lot of the boomers, particularly activists that make up five to 10 percent of that 74 million, many of them did not grow up. And even though they may be 63 years old, they still have not grown up, they may have had a family, they have not grown up, you think a lot of them have not grown up, they still have that? 47:04 MB: Well, I think there is some of that. I mean, I think the sense of being adversarial to a larger society, it comes naturally to many adolescents, because you have got adversarial to your parents after having been nurtured by them. And, you know, seeing them as part of your world is the process of separation. And so, there is something inherently inclines you towards adversarial in adolescence. And I think, you know, in some of their, you know, if you are still voting in California for these ruinous democrats that are destroying the state, enrich in the public employees, because you do not want to have any-any-any restrictions on abortion. Boy, that is a pretty adversarial way of looking at society, in my view. 47:47 SM: When did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end, in your point of view? And what was a watershed moment? 47:51 MB: Well, the (19)60s did not begin until well into the (19)60s. You know, assassination of President Kennedy, I think was, I think that was an important event in reducing competence in America. And of course, it was nobody's fault except the communists that did it. Which of course, if you read James Pearson's book makes the point about how Mrs. Kennedy and the liberals wanted to see Kennedy as having been killed by right wingers and they have constantly nurtured this and they did not like the idea that he was killed by some tacky communists, which was in fact the case. But I think you know, it. It violated the sort of intuitive sense that we had about American history that things turn out well. We-we had seen to wartime, you know, our experiences of presidents dying. We have seen President Lincoln, you see President Roosevelt age, during the course of huge war, you have the Mathew Brady photographs, Americans still know need to be looked at the pictures of Roosevelt during the war and the physical deterioration and so forth in the world. They come to a successful moment of triumph, and then they die, assassinated in Lincoln's case, dies of a cerebral hemorrhage and so forth. This at the moment of victory, roughly, and so forth. And so, there is a sense that things come out well even though the president trial leader tragic, our great leader, tragically dies, that things will come out well, and, you know, Kennedy died did not die in a moment of victory. It was not it was not that narrative did not hold it seems senseless and weird. And, you know, people might have anticipated you know, if he conducted a successful military intervention in Iraq, and then have presided as president over the moon shot and they have been assassinated after that it might have made sense to us. 49:52 SM: Yet do you consider that the watershed moment- 49:55 MB: I think that that becomes a moment where confidence in the society is significantly eroded and the goodness and rightness and the blessedness, if you will of American society since things turn out well for us, as we know that we will pictures more complex. Yeah, I think, and I think then you start getting more adversarial things you would get the elites, you know, the college elites not signing up for Vietnam, but nestling into the academy. You get the Watts riots, you know, Berkeley and the Watt riots (19)64, (19)65, you have a Harlem Riot in (19)64. All this effort to give more to students to get more blacks seems to be resulting in rioting in the streets and stuff and go back and read some of that stuff. It was truly frightening. Now there is this left-wing writer, what is his name, Rick Perlstein that does a history of Nixon and I gave it a somewhat critical- 50:47 SM: Nixonland. 50:49 MB: Yeah, but what Rick does really well, if he goes back and gets the footage of this stuff, and what was appearing on television, in 1967, and (19)68. And it gives you a sense of a country exploding and violence and growing and so forth. So, the (19)60s happen that I mean, I guess if you really had it, you know, the bad year was 1967. And Nelson [inaudible] is to say (19)68 was the worst campaign, year presidential campaign year in American history. I think there is a lot to that. And not just because Hubert Humphrey lost which Nelson supported. But yeah, he was speaking, he was speaking much more generally about that. 51:29 SM: Is there a lean line of demarcation where you see the (19)60s is over, I know you mentioned the (19)60s, or (19)70s, a lot of people- 51:38 MB: Well, it goes into the (19)70s, as he goes into the (19)70s, in the new world sense that behavior of an elite gets transferred to the whole society to a large extent. And, you know, if you go back and look at welfare dependency, crime rates, divorce rates, and stuff like abortion zooms peaks in the early (19)90s, crime peaks in the early (19)90s, late (19)80s, welfare dependency peaks about that time, some of these things are solved by changes in public policy to an important extent. But you have got these hugely negative tracks, all three of those metrics are hugely more negative than the amount after the 1930s, (19)40s and (19)50s, hugely more negative. They go on for a long time for a long generation. And without, you know, everybody just seems to think you cannot do much about it. You know, like, Gandhi had criminologists and these, so you cannot do a lot about crime when you are-when you are oppressing people, like we are oppressing black people, you just have to expect it. You know, this is part of the vibrancy of living in a city that you might get mugged. And hit over the head. 52:43 SM: And I have been, have you-you have ever been mugged? 52:45 MB: No. 52:45 SM: I got mugged in Philly. And the first day I was talking at Thomas Jefferson University, and I was going back from a dance was getting off the topic here. But when I came back, and then the next day, I went and done the work. And two people said bet you they were black, were not they? Yeah, well, they were. But you know, I did not really- 53:05 MB: Well, the uncomfortable fact was that you have, you know, unfortunately, a disproportionate number of black people commit crimes. I mean, that is just black young males, I mean, look at the prison profile and so forth, that some people were in prison, they probably should not be, we should do something about that. But you know, the numbers are there. I mean, it is just obvious. And essentially, I my theory is-is it is a function of why you also saw huge crime rates in Russia after the fall of communism, and bad behaviors, like alcoholism, accidents, and so forth. And a huge rush of crime in the US in post-apartheid South Africa. You know, both of which strike me as true, and you get this in America post success in the Civil Rights revolution. And my-my saying on this is liberated men tend to behave badly. Liberated women are just a pain in the neck. Yeah, when we are in it, men tend to behave badly. Why the black people do not commit more crimes in the south. Because these white people would kill them. They did not beat them up if they did, or if they thought they did. Now, they know some people that had not done this stuff. They thought you had a sort of terror. And you know what, terror does work to reduce crime. It is just not a measure we Americans want to employ. 54:22 SM: What is what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts on the movements that evolved at the end of the (19)60s because the civil rights movement was already well established? It was kind of a role model for all the other movements and certainly the antiwar movement as well. 54:40 MB: That is an example that people always throw back at you, you know, you are saying, are you saying the society is basically decent? What about the civil rights movement? Well, you know- 54:48 SM: Right, and the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement and of course, a lot of the women left the- those movements because of sexism and the women's was one but the question I am really asking here. Yeah, that when you look at the women's movement and organizations like National Organization for Women and [inaudible], you have got the gay and lesbian movement they evolved after Stonewall in (19)69. You have got the environmental movement that really came about Earth Day in 1970. You have got the American Indian Movement that was from (19)69 to (19)73. And we all know about Alcatraz and-and then what happened at Wounded Knee? And then you have the world Indian civil rights movement. 55:25 MB: Well, what is the question? 55:26 SM: The question is, what do you think about those movements in terms of they were supposed to be really empowered in the 1970s. That was their time, they seem to have waned. 55:38 MB: Well, I think each one has a different trajectory. You know the feminist movement gets Roe v. Wade seven to decision and the very gets, you know, you have a lot more women entering the workforce, that is an Yankelevich to that, basically women entering the workforce is a (19)70s phenomenon, which is mostly continued. You have got now in universities and graduate schools, you know, female dominance, numerically. You know, at the same time, you look at millennials, and they are less pro-abortion rights or these pro-abortion than their elders. They have seen the sonograms; abortion does not seem so wonderful and liberating to them. And again, as you know, highwoods points out the upper half strata of women do not get many abortions, very few of them do. And so, what was a huge symbolically important thing, where you had all these gray-haired feminists who are long past menopause, you know, hugely got to have a right to abortion is central to my being. That is just not the case. It seems with most of these younger women now. It is just something that is always been there. It is in the air. It is unremarkable, and actually rather unpleasant. So, they do not particularly like that. Enviro movements, they had huge policy successes in the (19)70s. That, you know, on balance, I mean, the Endangered Species Act was written in a bad way and is really a pain in the ass and the superfund act was crap. The clean air and water acts worked very well, by and large, and managed to do it. My friend, Bill Drayton, in the Carter administration invented what he called the bubble, but it is basically the cap-and-trade idea, or, you know, buying pollution allotments as a way of enforcing clean air and water act and so forth, which the Carter administration which also proceeded on a lot of the economic deregulation getting rid of the New Deal policies that were intended to and did hold up costs. So, in transportation, communication, we squeezed huge amounts across the society, but the environmental movement had a lot of successes there. And, you know, you know, today's enviros will not believe it when you say so and cannot bear to have it set. But our you know; our air and water standards and stuff are hugely cleaner than they were in 1970. I remember going to Los Angeles 1969 could not see the mountains almost any day. Now, you see the mountains almost every day. But I mean, that is just, you know, particulate emission, but well, smog, you know, the stuff is much better. So, they had a lot of success. Over time, I think that, you know, I think they have now become a vested interest. These people executives have $300,000 jobs they are protecting, they send out direct mail that always direct mail always takes the form, the sky is falling, everything will be worse than ever, unless you send in money today. So, we have got crackpot hoaxes, like global warming, which in my opinion, is more or less that where they are bending and cheating and lying about the science, and so forth. Part of this is that a lot of these people have a statist agenda, they want to run everybody's life completely and you have, you know, some of these other environmental causes, you know, we cannot get oil from Arctic National Wildlife, that is a complete crack. I mean, the idea that you are protecting some beautiful resource, I mean, I think of the North Slope, I have seen what that is like you are talking about, you know, prospecting the oil footprint, oil exploration footprint, the size of Dulles Airport, in an area the size of the state of Connecticut. They have got a pretty good record of environmental protection and so forth, and a pretty good culture in the North Slope. That is just stupid. You know why they do that to raise money. They show pictures of the beautiful Brooks Range and the caribou, and they rake in money and they know that the oil companies will always the state of Alaska will always press for that because it is absolutely asinine not to do it and make a profit bias. And so that there will always have this they will be able to bring in the money till they retire, pay off their kids’ tuition, keep that $300,000 rolling in. I think it is one of the most cynical operations the campaign against oil drilling. And why have any political classes been carried just feathering their own nests? 1:00:04 SM: But would you agree, though, that the movement of the (19)70s that we are all unique and fairly strong fighting are different for me, because they were very visible had become somewhat invisible. They become more singular. 1:00:20 MB: Well, enviro– 1:00:21 SM: They do not work together. 1:00:22 MB: No of course they do not work together. I mean, the feminist is now kind of an antique movement, because life is so different from what they were objecting to, and you read this stuff, and some of them, I guess, are very lesbian and do not like man, I do not know much about that, you know. Antiwar movement. Well, the antiwar tilt is still a very important factor in the Democratic Party read the debates on the Gulf War as recent in 1991, on the Iraq War resolution 2002. And you hear people arguing against the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, that their arguments make much more sense in terms of Vietnam, than they do in terms of the actual situations we faced in the Gulf War with Iraq. In my judgment, or at least the arguments of a lot of that continued, they have huge influence in the Democratic Party and on public policy there by the environment. As I said, I think it would become a vested interest lobby, more in feathering their own nests, than they are in really improving the environment. And in some cases, in promoting status controls and environment. Gay Rights Movements takes a long time to be successful but has had huge positive changes from their point of view, in public opinion over the last 15 years. I mean, the country's flipped totally on some case, serving openly in the military. This is an issue on which there are huge differences between this over 65 and the under 30s. And, you know, it is one of those issues, you know, the marijuana movement, where now, you know, in 1972, it looked like legalizing marijuana might be the wave of the future, California had a referendum, 33 percent voted for it. And I thought, well, you know, if marijuana you have all these under 30s, who are marijuana users grow up and still be for marijuana, then we are going to eventually see that 33 percent grow to 50 percent or something like that. And that did not happen. And so, one of the interesting questions on these cultural issues is, will the liberal attitudes that young people tend to have on these issues continuously grow old or not? And the answer is on some of them they have and some of them have not. My hunch is on the gay rights issues, they will continue to have these liberal attitudes as they grow older, it is beginning to look that way- 1:02:41 SM: Native American rights, you just do not hear about it anymore. 1:02:43 MB: You know, inherently tragic, you know, I mean, credit, the problem was, what is their solution? Well, tribal autonomy. Well, the tribal governments are not very good. We see, I think the best solution to Aboriginal peoples in the United States is Oklahoma and Alaska. Oklahoma, no reservations, integration. You get along, you are proud of your Indian glide, you make it a payment for something, or other. Alaska the Native Claims Act, Alaska Native Claims Act and Ted Stevens and others put together with which provides certain incomes to people. And what it is enabled them to do, I think, is it, it gives the individuals a choice of where they want to live on the continuum between the Aboriginal lifestyle and the mainstream lifestyle. The core problem with, you know, the autonomy for the reservation and political, political elections and reservations as you get (19)51, (19)49 elections in which the (19)51 steal for four years, and they were thrown out. And then the (19)49 becomes (19)51. And they may steal for four years. And they do not cover and effectively. And it does not give people it does not give people a range of choices of where they want to live on the continuum between the Aboriginal lifestyle and mainstream lifestyle, it tends to cabin in the end. I think, the Aboriginal lifestyle, or some variant there on a dependence lifestyle, which-which people do not do very well. I mean, look at the data. You know, it is tragic. And you have these problems in other countries, too, with how you deal with Aboriginal populations and people with those traditions in a free society. Those are difficult problems to handle. But I think Alaska and Oklahoma have done better than we have done in the reservation cultures. And, you know, the Eisenhower administration that the American Indian would criticize the Eisenhower administration for wanting to, you know, mainstream people. This was oppression, just as in Australia, there is a big move against big protests that were against the policies they had tried to mainstream Aborigines. I think That thrust of policy is the wrong thrust. I think the right thrust is not to cabin people into the Aboriginal lifestyle, but to give a continuum where people have choices, and they can partake of that lifestyle or not. You provide as the Alaska Native Claims Act does some income support for people to do that, they have the mineral rights and so forth. And in 12 native corporations, there is a pooling of the revenue so that there will not be huge windfalls for one over the other like the North Slope. But that is, that is a much better policy solution for Aboriginal rights. And so, I think, you know, the American Indian Movement was a dead-end, I am going to put you under some of those people, because were violent and stuff like that, which is pretty awful. 1:05:45 SM: I know, we are running out of time here. And but just real quick responses to these and then the boomer generation, many of them and still do think they were the most unique generation in American history, because there was this attitude, at least amongst the activists that they were going to change the world bring peace to the world, and racism, sexism, homophobia, there was a spirit of- 1:06:07 MB: Yeah, and a civil rights and revolution happens before they are adults. 1:06:10 SM: Right. But there was a feeling of empowerment. And again, some that are 63 years old still feel that because they are working old age, and they think they can change that too. So, what just a quick response to that. The second part of the question- 1:06:27 MB: It is pretty adolescent stuff, is not it? 1:06:29 SM: Yeah. 1:06:29 MB: That is the response– 1:06:31 SM: Okay. How important were the beats, some people felt that the (19)60s really began with a beat in the (19)50s that Kerouac, Ginsburg, Baldwin, Snyder, fairly Getty, those writer, Leroy Jones, those writers were basically the precursors to the anti-authoritarian. You know, I am not going to be like IMB or Titan mentality that through their writings, a kind of an independence, I am going to do it my way or the highway kind of mentality. 1:06:58 MB: I do not think they were probably very important. I do not think they were very widely read. I do not think mine are important. I mean, it is like, you know, the SDS port here and statement here in 1960 some importance too but I think this was not what inspired masses and masses of people to do things, I think, you know, the personal situations that people encounter, because the draft and things like that have much more effect then reading jack Kerouac are performing across the country. 1:07:28 SM: I interviewed Noam Chomsky and I had an hour with him. And then very difficult took me almost a year to see him. But I had a great time with him. And in one of his first books, which you probably read The American Pwer and the New Mandarins. Dr. Martin Duberman, and other well-known historian states, and Noam Chomsky, in his first books quoted this, about the generation, you recognize the anarchist spirit that lies at the heart of the rebellion of the young. he says Chomsky not only recognizes that but admires it. Your thoughts. 1:08:06 MB: So, you get a celebration of adolescence. And, you know, I found out mom and dad are imperfect and affects their real skunks. Am I not clever? And I am going to be a good person, the whole world, make the whole world better, and everything will be perfect. Now that is about that. What are we talking age 13, 14, 15. It is pretty adolescent stuff. I mean, I think ultimately, you know, if you want to, if you want to govern, if you want to be a responsible leader, if you want to exert positive forces, to contribute in some way to society, through your work, community surface elements, scenery, activities, or whatever else, it is better to start acting. It is better to become an adult than to remain an adolescent– 1:08:51 SM: You got to write an article on it. Yet, I think it is important to because I think a lot of boomers are confused, and I am not even going to go there. But I think a lot of them- 1:09:04 MB: When you are a grandparent, it is a little It is like watching, you know, Mick Jagger up on the stage being a rebellious 19-year-old and he is 66 years old, and- 1:09:11 SM: I think he is 70. 1:09:13 MB: Well, he has got a lot of, well he is actually quite a smart man, but he has got a lot of miles on the odometer, you know? I mean, it is kind of ludicrous, is not that, you know, when we go to these baby boomers, you go to these baby boomer rock concerts, they have a lot of Wolf Trap and stuff like that. And people they are all they are of a certain age. You know, we got these niche cultures like on the satellite radio, you know, got each decade different. You can get your decade and you can find your six different kinds of country music. There is, you know, you have got niches and stuff. So, these people go and watch, you know, 65-year-old watching 65-year-old sing teenage songs. [chuckles] I guess it is sort of wonderful that we have a society that is affluent enough where people get to have a chance like this and in an enjoyment dentistry of remembrance of what it was like to be young and- 1:10:03 SM: A lot of the band members are dead and they have replaced them entirely- 1:10:05 MB: Yeah, on the trajectory of life. Yeah, well, of course, it is a high. It is a high mortality occupation and given their social lives and their private plane traveling plans. 1:10:16 SM: You just you. These are quotes that came from Noam Chomsky, power for its own sake is unjustified power, unless justified is inherently illegitimate. And this is what he was talking about when we talked about the Vietnam War. 1:10:34 MB: I do not think that kind of generality gets you very far in terms of an intelligent critique of public policy. I mean, I think they are-they are serious prudential, there are serious arguments to be had about prudentially whether it was wise for the United States to intervene as it did in Vietnam. And whether, if you thought such an adventure, as well as what should have been done, but I do not think that that sort of generality is sort of, if the guy does not do what I like, he is illegitimate. I think that is kind of the that is the academy thing. Everything is legitimate except my personal preferences. Well, that does not tell us anything, except that you are ready to put people you know, you are ready to run 1984 if you get the chance. Instead, they can just run campus speech codes, and send people to re-education classes and stuff. But– 1:11:24 SM: Do you think that what Phyllis Schlafly said, she said, I interviewed her at the [inaudible] conference, and she said to me that she is still flying how? Yes, he is strong as ever. If she is very, she is not- 1:11:38 MB: She is a really petite woman. She has got a terrific body. She is great. 1:11:39 SM: She is. She has not lost anything up here. And she is sharp, but she gets tired very fast now. So yeah. 1:11:49 MB: Well into her 80s. 1:11:50 SM: Four I think 84 or 85. But she said the troublemakers of the (19)60s now run today's universities. And she and then she was said she was making a reference to the people that run them probably student life people as well as the women's studies programs, the gay studies, Asian studies, Native American studies, Black studies, she was referring to the studies program, do you think that is- 1:12:16 MB: Oh, yeah, I think it is run by the student radical. They are, you know, the descendants. Now the student radicals? I think it is becoming, you know, and I think they have become the most intolerant institutions in our society. Where do you have speech codes in our society? Well, corporate HR departments will tell you, you are not supposed to call people ethnic names and stuff on the workplace and things like that. But the real speech codes that are enforced against people that have the Roth, politically incorrect ideas are on campus, these supposedly havens of free thought, are in fact, the most intolerant part of the society. Your corporate employer does not care if you are Republican or Democrat. universities do. 1:12:58 SM: Oh, yeah, there has been actually, there has been stories of people actually being fired. 1:13:04 MB: Oh, yeah. That happened is that well was one of the things that is happened is that a lot of people like the people here at a lot of people here at AI have just fled the university for more congenial environment, and one where they will not be disfavored. So, you have got people like Chomsky sitting with the powers that legitimate unless it agrees with me have their own little niches of power, you know, there is different studies departments. You know, my sense is that they probably produce some good scholarship here and there. I mean, you know, just made to see Henry Louis Gates in this whole controversy last summer, is my understanding that he has produced some pretty good scholarship and- and has done some worthy work. I think a lot of those people are, do not produce much this worthwhile. You know, that, you know, a lot of it is kind of a scam. But there, I am sure are people in all those things that have produced some scholarship, that is, that is, that is worth serious consideration. You know, it tends to be one sided and so forth. I mean, the stuff I have read of Gates, which is not anything like a large sampling of his work, suggests that he is a fairly clear eyed and non-propagandistic sort of guy that is trying to understand a very different past and to enter sympathetically into the minds of people that are as to how they were behaving, including, you know, some people whose behavior we currently, all of us consider repugnant. That is, you know, that is an interesting thing to do. I think that, you know, a lot of the departments have just become garbage though, have not they? I mean, you have got areas you know, a lot of the English departments you know, this deconstruction stuff, because that is all crap. I mean, I remember a friend of mines daughter was at Wesleyan. She said, you know, these literature crisis, you go there, and they denounce dead white males all day or all our she says I want to read some Shakespeare some Jane Austen. Okay, well, you know, a student that wants to read Shakespeare and Jane Austen. Yeah, that is a pretty worthy motive. And then to be encountered these, these harridans, screaming about the dominance of dead white males and so forth. Boy, that is a pretty lousy educational experience. And it is hard to believe people like that are going to produce any good scholarship. 1:15:35 SM: I think the only got four more points that I have been one of the commentaries, because I have worked in higher ed about 35 years, is that I think the biggest battle today in higher education, the battles have been going on between conservatives and liberals for a long time is between liberals and liberals in the liberal, that can become a friend of a conservative, a liberal that can bring in conservative speakers and understand that it is important that all points of view are listened to and heard, and preparing students for the world they are going to face manage on diversity. 1:16:08 MB: My sense is that is not the case that a lot of university venues and you know, in a sense, it is almost worse, at the knot I suspected is worse at many of the non-elite places. 1:16:19 SM: State universities. 1:16:20 MB: Well, you have got a lot of places where I think you have got some not very smart people left wingers in control. And, you know, if you read the fire, the foundation for individual rights in education, you know, the speech codes and stuff they encounter at some of these colleges you never heard of, are pretty hair raising. And you have to say there is a large amount of stupidity involved. I mean, I used to think when I was growing up those academics were generally smarter than the rest of us. And I have come to think they are- they are not as smart as people in a lot of, you know, the top part of the law profession or something, certainly medical, hard sciences. They are a lot smarter than these left-wing academics, most of them. 1:17:01 MB: I think you and James Fallows agree on the point that you brought up earlier about the elite education back in the Harvard's and the Yale's because, because he felt that the Vietnam War was a class war, because he says so beautifully in his What Did You Do in the War, Daddy, that the voice of Chelsea, the lower income voice from Boston when often fought the war, yet the rich kids who went off to Harvard, not only- 1:17:32 MB: He did not talk quite right about Chelsea, because people from the lowest demographic do not get drafted. But that is, well- 1:17:38 SM: He mentions that. But he talks about the fact that not only they invaded the war, as opposed to protesting the draft, the annoying that they evaded the draft as opposed to protesting. So, he calls it a kind of a class war. Do you really think that Vietnam was more of a class war? 1:17:55 MB: Well, I think I discussed that earlier. Yeah. 1:17:58 SM: Yeah, what one of the things? This is, these are two very important questions that I have tried to raise to every person I have interviewed with starting with Senator McCarthy in 1996. And this may not mean anything to you, but it is something that I have been raising, and that is the fact that students at our campus came up with a question when we took a group to see Senator Muskie in 1995 in his office, they had they these students had not been born in 1968. And so, they saw (19)68 in the (19)60s through their classes, as a time of disruption coming close to a second Civil War, no one getting along with each other, riots in the streets, but (19)68 defined at our two assassinations with the Chicago convention with police and students fighting each other and oppress poles. 1:18:46 MB: We call it the worst eleven years in American history. For exactly those kinds of reasons. 1:18:51 SM: The question that they came up with, they wanted to ask him because he was the democratic vice-presidential candidate is due to all the divisions that were happening in America that time do you feel that the boomer generation, I know that it is very general do You think the boomer generation is going to go with the grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing from the divisions that they had when they were young, but they carry these into adulthood whether it be for or against the war? 1:19:19 MB: Not fully healing is my answer. Yeah, you know, I think, you know, we saw this period between (19)95 and (20)05, where you have very static reason, political alignment, voting behavior, in large part to focus on to baby boom generation president. So, the two halves are the different parts of it. And his personal characteristics reinforced their identification, you know, I mean, Kennedy was an Irish American, but he looked and acted like a British Lord, or at least most Americans regard him that way. He went against type. Clinton went with type and Bush went with type the liberal baby in the conservative baby but- 1:20:01 SM: What were those types? 1:20:04 MB: Clinton's you know, your positive way of looking at it is articulate in this the negative way a slippery immoral behavior and so forth. George W. Bush's positive way to look at its steadfastness, negative way to look at it stubbornness, the idea of a sort of moralism there is a right and wrong and the ultra-left eyes want to say, oh no, everything is relative nice and clear right or wrong, you know, we let us just talk about it for a while. And Bush is saying now some things are right or wrong and I mean, I think Bush is, right you can argue about which things are right and wrong and where you ought to go to shades of gray, but I think there are, you know, there are some real rights and wrongs you know, George Orwell, you know, thought so, too. And totalitarianism was just wrong. And, you know, so yeah, I think the boomers will continue as I that is my thing. The good news is the baby boomers will die out. The bad news is I will die about the same time. 1:21:11 SM: Do you think the wall Vietnam Memorial, what does it mean to you? Does that help you personally to know that you think is Jan Scruggs says in his book to heal a nation, it was meant to be a nonpolitical entity to help the families and those of those who died and answer why you are having to memorialize them. And it is not to be a political statement. But he also says, we hope it heals the nation. 1:21:36 MB: Well, I think it is interesting, you get five, you know, lots of people go over there and look at it. But the here is the interesting thing, to me is that the final product is a bifurcation. I mean, the complaint was made against that it was non heroic treated, treated soldiers as victims and not as heroes. And so, you get the, you know, the lifelike statues of the GI attendant with it, which is, which, if not heroic, at least, says that they are doers, not victims. And I think one of the problems in America has, you know, the call for change this to some extent, I said, Americans are seeing their military as heroes not victims, as or at least as doers, not victims. I think one of the things that I find unpleasant about valid statement about the class war, which is, you know, reasonably good description, I put it somewhat differently. But he has seen-he has seen people served in the military as victims, and I think that is selling them short. And you know, and he is saying that people who are clever enough, like himself and me, to avoid being victims, so out of the somewhat ashamed of ourselves, which I agree with, and but, you know, perhaps what we ought to be ashamed of, is not having avoided victim status, but have had it been avoided making a positive contribution. 1:23:09 SM: I know that in the symposium that they were involved, and then I am pleased before Senator Webb. And certainly, Bobby Mahler and General Wheeler and the whole group is that that it was when we talk about the generation gap between parents and their kids. But really, the severe problem is between the generation itself prior to having some served in Vietnam sitting next is somebody who graduate from Harvard when I become a lawyer. Put them in a war together, that is where the divisions come from together, that sort of 1:23:41 MB: depends on which subjects you focus on. But yeah, if you bring that up, yeah. 1:23:47 SM: Why did we lose Vietnam? In your opinion? Why do we lose that war? 1:23:54 MB: I think we have poor military strategy. I think we hadou know, I think that I think President Johnson had great military strategy, he did not elicit a winning military strategy out of his military as he should have been read Elliot Cohen and Supreme Command. I think that is good work on that. I think President Nixon had a potentially winning strategy. I mean, read, Lewis thoroughly said good war, that was undercut by Watergate in history, Henry Christian argued by Watergate and by the election of a democratic congress that refused to vote any aid to South Vietnam in 1975. So, I am not sure I agree with whether I agree or not with thoroughly status that Abram’s strategy was essentially a successful strategy. But I think that is a pretty strong argument. So, the answer, to some extent is a failure of leadership in America to produce the result. I mean, it was what George Bush failed at in 2005, (20)04 or (20)05 and (20)06 interactions conceded out in 2007 and (20)08. 1:25:01 SM: Are you supportive of Dr. King's speech in 1967, where he went against the Vietnam War, he was criticized heavily by his own– 1:25:09 MB: I just observed it. 1:25:10 SM: Do you think that is important, schemed of things? 1:25:16 MB: Somewhat, I do not think it was. I really do not know. I did not have strong. I thought it was, you know, my reaction to time was it is not really your issue. 1:25:28 SM: Yeah. 1:25:30 MB: It is interesting. I have been reading about it. I read something about Eisenhower was on Eisenhower and civil rights, and he has King and as a 28-year-old. And this guy, research these documents, his stuff, and it will be fascinating King’s, comments were really quite wise. And he really, he had, he really was a gifted man. 1:25:49 SM: We had James Farmer on our campus. It is totally visually impaired at the time, but he was still strong and very speaker. And he said, the Dr. King that we saw in the church and the Dr. King that we saw at rallies was not the real Dr. King. The real Dr. King was the man who stayed in the room. During when we were talking about the issues, and he was very quiet. He was a quiet man. And he would go get it out of Martin, what do you think? And then he would open up people and have to vote against neutral for a while- 1:26:24 MB: Interesting, the comments he made, you know, he is in the presence of President Eisenhower all these things, and he is 28 years old, and he was during Montgomary, Alabama. And he does very well. It was fascinating, frankly- 1:26:38 SM: I think we are almost done here. 1:26:39 MB: Got to retail and branch refuge was probably terrific. Anyway, yeah, I have got to go. 1:26:44 SM: Yeah, the very last question is, what do you think of lasting legacy will be on this generation will make your best history books are written 50 years from now, or when maybe when the last boomer passed away? 1:27:06 MB: A generation that did not fully live up to its responsibilities. 1:27:14 SM: And those responsibilities would have been? 1:27:24 MB: Lots of different things. And you are asking me to write the book. Right. 1:27:24 MB: And I used to work for you I just leave it at that. 1:27:32 SM: The very last thing is the issue of trust. One of the things that seems to define this generation is they do not trust because they saw leaders that lie so many of them lied to them from Watergate to Eisenhower lying about U-2 on. 1:27:46 MB: I think that is, I think that is an overbreeding for a long moment in history. I think that, you know, already talked to you about the decline in confidence. And the fact that the American that was so confident and believing in its institutions from the 1940s to the mid (19)60s was not unusual America. We had had great success. And we had two great successes that had not really been anticipated, say, circa 1940, which is success in the World War, which most Americans did not want to get into. And, no, it was a pretty terrible war, and the success of post-world economic prosperity, which almost no one anticipated, and so those huge successes that seemed to be produced by men born in the 1880s, and 1890s. 1:28:37 SM: Very good. That would be okay. Thank you. Let us- 1:28:40 MB: We had this country that had the narrative, the Lincoln Roosevelt narrative, where everything turns out well, and even the tragic death of the president comes from moments of great victory. 1:28:55 SM: Actually, one more- 1:28:57 MB: Photographers always say one more. 1:29:01 SM: Very good. 1:29:02 MB: Yeah, that moment of history. And I think, I think that was something. 1:29:05 SM: That was one of the things you know, you learn in political science class, the first thing you learn is that not trusting your government is actually healthy for democracy. So, if you are saying a generation does not trust, then- 1:29:19 MB: Yeah, you have these people, Nixon and Johnson, that were so ex- for Johnson and Nixon that were so experienced and turned out to be great disappointment. So, I think that, you know, the idea that in fact, the idea of not trusting experts, but we are not trusting people in power you know. I think that that is, you know, that is a long, long, decade long feeling rather than something that persists throughout time. 1:29:47 SM: I have been to the store to try to find your book- (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Barone Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Barone, Michael ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Historians; Journalists; Barone, Michael--Interviews Description An account of the resource Michael Barone is a senior political analyst for the Washington Examiner, a historian, and a journalist. Barone was a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the longtime co-author of The Almanac of American Politics, which is a reference work on Congress and state politics. He received a Bachelor's degree from Harvard College and a Law degree from Yale Law School. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.20 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 89:54 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f904cd28f6fa6c08c389e0540fe5a0c3.jpg ca65acf60dc747a7d737dcdb774a156d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a93884fd63c45cab873e3c6e6d3be1a5.mp3 ef38146f33475123de975a394f10f5b2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Donnelly Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Michael Donnelly is an environmental activist, author, and one of the founders of Friends of Opal Creek. Donnelly has been writing on environmental issues and stories focused on Native American and indigenous peoples in the northwest. He is a member of the American Indian Movement. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Vietnam War; Kent State shootings; Cultural changes; Shift away from religion; Michigan anti-war march, Environmental Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; John Trudell; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Peace Corps."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Vietnam War; Kent State shootings; Cultural changes; Shift away from religion; Michigan anti-war march, Environmental Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; John Trudell; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Peace Corps. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 136:34 Subject LCSH Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Indigenous peoples--United States; Donnelly, Michael--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Michael Donnelly Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 16 March 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two. Could you give me some background in terms of where you were born, your early influences in terms of the people who had the greatest impact on you, and any role models or heroes that inspired you when you were young? Because I know you are a very important activist on the environment. MD (00:00:27): Okay. I was born in Flint, Michigan, and I grew up in Flint, Michigan. And I guess the biggest important influence on me is the Catholic Church. From an Irish Catholic family, and went to Catholic schools through 12th grade, and I was in a Catholic seminary in Detroit, Michigan for 9th and 10th grade or seminary. And a lot of my early influences were people in the church. And I have the whole clan structure of our family. I had a lot of great influences, my grandparents and aunts and uncles and so on. And my dad was a huge influence on me. And he was a junior college English instructor and baseball coach who got his doctorate degree and eventually became president of the college and was pioneer of community colleges in the country. And he was, I guess you could call him a Roosevelt liberal type. SM (00:01:41): How did you end up going from Michigan to Oregon? MD (00:01:49): At Michigan State University I met my wife in grad school there. And she had gone to undergraduate school at Lewis and Clarke College in Portland. Before that though, when I was a junior in college in 1970, my dad was hired to set up the community college system for the whole state in Nevada. And so that was the first time. Yeah, he set up five colleges in seven years there. Now they have more students than the whole rest of the college system in the whole state. And so, the first time I ever saw the West was when I caught a plane, which was rare back in (19)70. I never caught any planes. But at Christmas break in a blizzard in Canton, Michigan... And then went off in Reno. The first time I had seen the West, and I loved it. So then when I met Nina, my wife, was [inaudible] college, she-she had grown up in Marin County, California, and we had come to Oregon. My God, Oregon. SM (00:02:53): Well, obviously this is the (19)60s and the (19)70s. MD (00:02:58): Yeah. SM (00:02:58): We are talking about here? And again, I got really a lot of specific questions, but there is also some broad ones too, and this is one of the broad ones. When you think of that time when you were in college, those experiences, I think you graduated from a community college and then you went off to Michigan State and then you were off to Oregon. Do you remember about those times? Was there something in those times that inspired you to become an activist or you just started seeing things with a bigger lens? MD (00:03:31): When I was young, I was growing up in inner city Flint, as it shifted from being white neighborhood to [inaudible], and that had a huge impact on me. And I got involved early on with the Urban Coalition, which was an attempt to bridge the racial divide in the area. I was one of the youngest people involved in it. When I was in the seminary, Dr. Martin Luther King came to Detroit and gave a speech, fabulous speech. SM (00:04:02): And you saw it? MD (00:04:03): Yeah, I saw it. SM (00:04:03): Oh, wow. You are live. Wow. MD (00:04:04): Yeah, so all of us seminarians, we made signs and we rolled out and joined all the neighbors and everybody, and we all walked downtown to see the speech. And that was pretty moving to me. I saw my first [inaudible]. SM (00:04:15): What year was that? MD (00:04:16): It was in (19)63. SM (00:04:17): Okay. MD (00:04:18): Three. Oh, no, it must have been (19)64. Because LBJ was president and Nicholas Katzenbach was the attorney general then. SM (00:04:29): Yes. MD (00:04:30): They were protesting though. And so that had a big impact on me. I grew up, part of my Catholic upbringing is being pushed into athletics. So athletics was really... For anything about athletics, the best thing about it was it broke down a lot of race barriers. [inaudible 00:04:52] A young guy, he wanted to play with the best athletes and did not matter to us what color you were. So I got involved that way. That was my first. SM (00:05:03): That you are the third only person of all the people I have interviewed outside the politicians who met him, but actually you saw him speak. How close were you to the stage or you were up in the audience someplace? How long did he speak? MD (00:05:20): He spoke I think at least an hour. And he was speaking from the steps of a church. And the crowd was just surrounding all the blocks all around there. I was probably a half a block away. I could barely see him, but they had speakers set up and you could hear. SM (00:05:40): Oh, so you heard the speakers then? MD (00:05:42): Yeah, I basically heard speakers. I could not really see any expressions. I could just see little tiny people up there. But it was incredible. SM (00:05:52): Yeah. I know about Flint because when I was at Ohio State, I went through Flint on the way to Oakland University. I think I had a friend there, that worked there, and I remember being in the bus station downtown Detroit and Flint, and I believe that is where, what's his name? Earvin, the great basketball player came from there. MD (00:06:17): Oh, Magic Johnson? SM (00:06:18): Yeah. Magic Johnson. Yeah. MD (00:06:21): He was from East Lansing. SM (00:06:22): Yeah, he was from the area. Okay. Now you are an athlete, you are in a Catholic school, now you are in a seminary. You saw the differences between black and white, which was one of the biggest issues of the day. And of course, Dr. King. As a young person, were you one of the youngest people that was as a white person involved in this? MD (00:06:42): Probably. Certainly when we set up the Urban Coalition in Flint, I was the youngest. I was certainly the youngest white person, and there were not that many white people at first you know. SM (00:06:53): What was the purpose of the Urban Coalition? MD (00:06:55): It was to try to try to just deal with the race disparity, calm things down. I mean, it was a rather dangerous time to be a teenager, whether you were black or white in a situation like that, because there was a lot of stuff going on. That is why I got involved in it, mostly cause of that. And then try to get local businesses to hire some of the young black guys in the neighborhood because there was just no jobs for most teenagers. And if you were black, you did not have a chance. SM (00:07:29): Right. We all know what happened when Dr. King was assassinated. All the things that happened in the cities was pretty sad. MD (00:07:40): We kept a [inaudible] on that. We had a huge memorial, and rally, and a march. And rioting did not break out in Flint. Then it did during the same time as Detroit Riot, though, so it got pretty scary then. But yeah, I think it worked out. SM (00:08:01): What were your thoughts at that time on the Vietnam War? Were you one of those individuals like I was? And the many that were subject to the draft? Or your number was high, or how did that work out? MD (00:08:14): Well first, when I first started hearing about Vietnam, it was actually, I was hearing about Laos because some of the older guys I know were going into the service and they were going to be sent to Laos. So, it was like, I did not know what Vietnam was at first. Then by the time I graduated high school in 1967, it was a pretty well-known thing. And then I went off to college and some of my friends enlisted, and a few of them came back wounded and had all kinds of stories. And then I was in the first draft lottery that year, 1970, and my number was number 32. SM (00:08:53): 32? MD (00:08:54): Yeah. SM (00:08:55): That is not good. MD (00:08:56): No. So I immediately got drafted, and so I applied for conscientious objector status at that time and still got drafted. And then I went through about, oh, from about mid-1970 to the end of (19)72, where I was just in the back and forth battle with the draft board. And I had to appear before the draft board. My argument [inaudible] any type to begin with. And then after about, I was, what did I call it? My draft status went to 1AO. 1AO. Objector. And they kept telling me that they were going to find a spot from me to where I could work alternative service, dealing with finding wounded guy's hospital facilities near their hometowns. And about two or three times that was getting it and started in the process, and that just never happened. And then all of a sudden out of the blue, they just discharged me. SM (00:10:10): Wow. MD (00:10:11): I guess it was they had enough of me. One of my uncles, my dad's brother, Dr. Bill Donley, he was a pediatrician in Pontiac, Michigan, and he was one of the people that, he was a role model to me because he was involved in the open housing movement in early days. [inaudible] suburban pediatrics practice. So he just opened up an inner city one. But he also, he was a World War II Navy officer, and he was totally opposed to the war, and he was involved with the people that put on the moratorium, and he was also involved with the bunch doctors that were helping people get medical deferment. SM (00:10:58): Oh, wow. And yeah, the moratorium, I think was (19)69, I think, if I remember. MD (00:10:58): Yeah. He had been involved helping on that. He was a great guy. And my dad too. My dad was one of the first college presidents that telegraphed LBJ to end the war. SM (00:11:14): Well, that is something I want to hear about. Because your dad was involved in the community college system in Colorado? MD (00:11:22): Nevada. SM (00:11:23): Nevada. And he was the president of what now? MD (00:11:26): Well, he worked his way up from being an English teacher and baseball coach. He is another World War II vet that used the GI bill to further his education. And then he became the president of Flint Junior College. And then that was at the point when community colleges were being invented. And he and Charles Stewart Mott. Know who he is? SM (00:11:52): Charles... No, I do not. MD (00:11:54): He was the top shareholder in General Motors. He has got foundations that have outlived him, and he was a very instrumental guy. He was a person that is a role model. He's one of the greatest philanthropists ever in my mind. And he was totally loyal to Flint. He served as mayor for seven years, and he had an instrumental role in getting the sit-down strike settled peacefully. And the union being recognized, and General Motors being the top corporation [inaudible] over 40 years. But he also, he and a friend of his, Frank Manley, are the guys that invented community schools. And it started in Flint. And so, when [inaudible] community colleges, [inaudible] called Mott Community College, donated the land for it, and shook down all of his industrial cronies for money to build the college. And he and my dad were partners on that. And then in 1970, Nevada wanted to get a college, [inaudible]. Howard Hughes knew CS Mott, so CS Mott recommended my dad. Howard Hughes gave a $250,000 donation. And that is how the community college system in Nevada got started. SM (00:13:07): Oh my gosh. That was around the time he was, was that when he was kind of hibernating? And the whole... MD (00:13:12): Oh, yeah. My dad never, ever met him. He went through intermediaries. But these industrial philanthropists saw the potential of community college. Then my dad, because of that... He was the President of the Association of Community College Presidents and helped get them accredited all over the country. He traveled the country getting community colleges set up. SM (00:13:40): Wow. That is a very important phenomenon during the time when boomers were young. Because I actually went to a community college for two years, Broome Community College in Binghamton. And then I went to Binghamton University to get my history degree, and then I went off to Ohio State. But I know how important community colleges were because it was an excellent education for less money. MD (00:14:06): Oh, yeah. SM (00:14:07): Now your dad sent a letter off to the president. Did he ever get a response? MD (00:14:14): I do not think he did. He sent a couple different tele... the only reason I know that, is there is this famous incident when students took over his office, the president's office about the war. And my dad just opened up his door and he said, "Hey, look, I have already sent the telegrams. Here you go." But he was ahead of them. SM (00:14:38): Now, obviously you are an activist today. We are going to get into that about the environment and the forests and everything. But now you are not an activist yet. You are a very involved person. You are working together, bringing people together, and then going off to college and everything. What did you think of the anti-war people that you saw on your college campuses? MD (00:15:04): At the community college there was not a whole lot of activity, though the Chicago Convention, sure amped that up. The (19)68 convention. And quite a few of the people that were active in the anti-war movement were people that I'd gone to Catholic school with. And so I liked them and they were able to reach me pretty easily. But when I went off to Michigan State, it really got amped up. Because Kent State happened during that time and all sorts of stuff. The invasion of Cambodia. I should say, that also was a very interesting event in Flint that I went to. The SDS, the Weathermen, when the Weathermen broke off from the SDS, they held a thing called the War Council in Flint, right before they went underground. And they rented this place in the inner city, one of the black clubs, and they had this event. So I and a few of my friends went down to it. And that was an eyeopener. That was something totally different than any of us had ever thought about. SM (00:16:08): Explain what happened there. MD (00:16:11): They basically ranted and raved and ranted and raved and called for armed insurrection. That is, it basically. And I do not know, I am way too much of a pacifist for that. I was completely shocked by that. SM (00:16:30): That was Bernardine Dohrn was not it? She was the president, I think. MD (00:16:34): Yeah, she was there. I think Mark Rudd [inaudible]. SM (00:16:37): Yeah, and Mark Rudd. And there were... MD (00:16:40): Quite a few people there. SM (00:16:41): Her husband too, I think was in that group. Bernardine Dohrn. MD (00:16:45): Yeah. It was very strange. And I remember that one of the more radical inner city churches, Sacred Heart Church, allowed all these people to sleep in their gym and this and that. Anyway, so that was the way more radical fringe as an anti-war movement. And then I went off to Michigan State. There was a very big movement, but there was a lot of infighting going on because of the, you know, you had your Marxist wing, you had your pacifist wing. I had gone to a few organizing meetings for demonstrations, and I just could not deal with it. I do not know what it was. It was just too much of an intellectual exercise and a lot of people making points and self-aggrandizing and so on. I went to these major anti-war rallies that were going on during that time. And then the student strike in 1970 took place there, and there were thousands of students out the street. Took over the main thoroughfares and cut off traffic, and fought it out with the cops there too. The people did. And there was a lot of tear gas craziness. But by that time, things were getting pretty polarized. It carved out strong positions on the war. And of course that was before I got drafted. But by the time I was drafted, I was thoroughly opposed to the war. SM (00:18:20): Now you were there through (19)71? MD (00:18:23): Yes. SM (00:18:24): It is interesting because I was at Ohio State in (19)71, (19)72, and I remember one of my friends at Ohio State's best friend was in grad school at Michigan State. And we drove there, and as we were coming into the campus, we were asked to get out of the car. They thought we were infiltrators, right? MD (00:18:41): [inaudible] SM (00:18:42): And that was in the (19)71, so it was still happening there, and the students were on the streets protesting and everything. MD (00:18:50): Yeah, it was a big deal because Michigan State University has a huge police science academy there, and they were training [inaudible] for the South Vietnamese for a while. And so people really wanted to shut that down. So, I think it was pretty polarized. SM (00:19:08): These interviews are all about you and all the people I interview because I get into the basic questions that I ask everybody, but it is the personal stuff that is most important to me. During your years there at Michigan State, whether it was two years or whatever, you obviously saw the protests and went to the protests, but were there any great speakers who came in to address the campus that you saw? Any programs that you went to that had really an impact on your life? MD (00:19:38): Yeah. Senator Wayne Morse came to the Michigan State. SM (00:19:41): Big time. MD (00:19:42): And he was one of the only two people to vote against the war. So we made all these signs, Wayne Morse for president, and we went. He was... That was highly impressive to me. SM (00:19:54): He is from Oregon. MD (00:19:55): I know. Maybe one reason I came here, I do not know. That and Ken Kesey. SM (00:20:01): Right. MD (00:20:01): And my wife, of course. So, I think Wayne Morse was probably the greatest speaker I saw at address the war. SM (00:20:12): Did he speak in a gym, or in a room? MD (00:20:18): It was a, like a theater kind of performing arts hall, probably 3000 people. SM (00:20:26): Was it an evening or daytime program? MD (00:20:27): An evening, yeah. SM (00:20:29): Was it tense? MD (00:20:29): It was right by my dorm, so it was pretty easy. SM (00:20:32): So it was packed? Was he the only speaker? Did he have a Q&A too after he spoke? MD (00:20:42): No, he did not. But another time I saw Dick Gregory speak, he did have a Q&A after. SM (00:20:47): Oh, he is another big one. MD (00:20:48): And he was another really good one that influenced me. I was really impressed by him. SM (00:20:54): And what was, if you can remember, it has been a while, but I remember all my speakers too in college. What was the main thrusts of Senator Morse's speech? MD (00:21:06): Basically that the war was illegal and needed to end immediately, and it violated all American principles and democratic principles. And he just laid it out simply that I think he's the first person I heard ever say that, that Ho Chi Minh and the North Vietnamese had used our constitution as their model. SM (00:21:33): Which is true. MD (00:21:35): Yeah, I believe that is true. I have always been told it was true, because I heard Senator Wayne Morse say it was true. SM (00:21:41): And also he admired Thomas Jefferson. He was a big Jefferson fan. MD (00:21:46): Oh, yeah. SM (00:21:47): Truman missed an opportunity there. MD (00:21:52): Yeah. SM (00:21:53): How about, were there any bands or performers that you saw during those years at Michigan State that were? MD (00:22:00): Oh, yeah, there was. I saw all kinds of musicians and performers that were in that time. But I think the ones that were the most political were, I saw the Jefferson Airplane and John Sebastian. Along with a number of other groups in an outdoor concert. And they hammered away at it. They had a decided anti-war platform they were putting out. SM (00:22:30): When Kent State happened, your school was still in session, correct? MD (00:22:34): Yes. SM (00:22:35): How did you guys find out about it? MD (00:22:38): Oh, it spread like wildfire through the dorms and to the college. Lots of misinformation too. I mean, the misinformation had police getting killed and all sorts of stuff. So it took a little while to figure it all out. First we all went and hit the TV to find out what was going on. And I think it was almost just immediately there was a huge protest. Calls for [inaudible] strike. SM (00:23:07): And did your school shut down early because of it? MD (00:23:12): The school kept going. The student’s kind of forced the strike. SM (00:23:16): Okay. MD (00:23:17): Students took over the administration building. The police came. It was a wild time. I think it was more of a voluntary, it was voluntary. Whether you abided by the strike or not, the school kept going. SM (00:23:32): Who was the president of Michigan State then? Do you remember? MD (00:23:35): I cannot remember. SM (00:23:37): Because that person [inaudible] MD (00:23:40): Right. I cannot believe I cannot remember his name. He was the first black president, you know? I could undoubtedly look it up. SM (00:23:51): Yeah. But those were sometimes, I will tell you. What do you think when you think of the (19)60s? And again, I say the (19)60s went right until about (19)73, (19)74, because... What do you think were the watershed moments that, in your opinion? When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes? MD (00:24:18): I think they probably began with the assassination of President Kennedy. That opened up a lot of peoples' eyes to hey, things are not quite what they seem. SM (00:24:29): And when did you feel personally in your life that the (19)60s had ended? MD (00:24:40): I do not think they have, in the sense that, I think the major contribution of the (19)60s was a rise in consciousness. A willingness of people to challenge the dominant paradigm, and to figure it out on their own without some authorities interpreting. And being the middle man and what reality is, and I think that was blasted out forever by the (19)60s. That was a big peak. SM (00:25:12): Is there one, you have already mentioned quite a few that could have had an impact on you. Is there one event that had the greatest impact on you personally when you were young? MD (00:25:33): Yeah. The funny thing is, I think it is LBJ's resignation. SM (00:25:38): Explain your reasoning for that. MD (00:25:41): Because I felt it was the first time that the government was held accountable. That [inaudible] the government was acting badly, and the person behind it all was going to take the fall for it. It was something that all of us really wanted to see, and it actually happened. SM (00:26:03): What do you think, when we are talking about boomers, at least one third of the people I have interviewed are not boomers? They were born before (19)46. But when you think of the 1950s, we are talking now about the (19)60s, but in the (19)50s, the boomers were really in elementary school. Well, they were in... Post-war, of course, they were in diapers in the first five years. And then because in the (19)50s, they were in elementary school or beginnings of junior high. Your thoughts on, what was it about the (19)50s that created the (19)60s in your view? MD (00:26:49): Oh, maybe rock and roll. I mean, things were starting to shift. There was rise of... The cultural stuff was changing. Rhythm and blues was happening. Black culture was getting more play. It existed. The big part of it, I think, I think there was a cultural shift that was starting in the (19)50s. So I was kind of completely ensconced in the Catholic Church. I still feel that the reverberations going on around that things are starting to change. SM (00:27:33): Well, you're talking about going to the Catholic Church. You know, the (19)50s, one of the observations we find is that many of the boomer children are going to church, synagogue. They were going every Sunday. And then as we got to the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, that was not happening anymore. Many were not going. They went inside themselves more. Like the spirituality changed. And that was part of the communal movement too. But your thoughts on just, if you're devout Catholic, just what happened to the attendance and why it all of a sudden, fewer were going to church as they got older? MD (00:28:19): Well, I think the Catholic Church got on the wrong side of the two greatest moral issues of the day. And one was population, and the other is the war. I think they were on the wrong side of it, and I think they lost a lot of credibility. I do not think they ever recovered. I was taught, when I was applying for my conscientious objector status, I met with Monsignor Sheridan, who had been my pastor all my life. He pushed me into the seminary and everything. And while he agreed with me that I was a conscientious objector, he was going on and on about, "But do not you realize we're over there in Vietnam defending the Catholics from the north?" And then he closed with a rant about abortion. It was like... I mean, it was clearly, there was a shift that took place that the church was on the wrong side of. When I went into the seminary in the early (19)60s, John Kennedy was President, a Catholic president. John Paul the 23rd was Pope, a very popular Pope. Church was in a heyday. And there were 242 guys in my freshman class. And four years later, only 14 graduated. And a big shift took place right there in the middle of the (19)60s. And I think that the church was not very forceful on civil rights either. They should have taken a much bigger lead than that, I think. SM (00:29:45): Yeah. I can remember my grandfather was a Methodist minister, so we went every Sunday. And then I went off to school and it was more logistics than anything else for me. But there was something about the messages also within the church. This is just my thoughts on your thoughts. The messages in the (19)50s within the churches was... They were just moral messages or they were more simple messages. They were not worldwide messages. And Dr. King was such a rare breed because he was talking about, the black ministers were talking about justice in their churches. And I am not sure if the white churches were, or the synagogues. I do not know what they were doing. And so, the social conscience became part of the message of many of the religious leaders as we go into the (19)60s. And at the same time that was happening, more and more young people were not going to church or synagogue or... I find it ironic that that was actually happening. Just your thoughts on that? Is my observation, right? MD (00:30:59): Yeah, but I think the individual ministers and priests and rabbis were... there was the Berrigan wing of the Catholic Church. But then you have your right-wing wing too, that was sporting the status quo. And social justice did not really matter, even across the radar. And it became, to me, it just seemed like it was exclusionary and elitist that the church became. That all this stuff was going on that had a huge real-world impact. There were very moral issues and the church was not addressing them, or if it was, it was getting on the wrong side. And that is what blew me out of it. SM (00:31:47): The one minister that seems to have been a constant through all this was Billy Graham. He seemed to be an important voice no matter when, throughout the last 50 years. So, he is one of the rare constants. The boomers have been thought of as also the TV generation. Were you influenced by TV? It certainly brought the Vietnam War home in the (19)60s, but what were your thoughts on the TV of the (19)50s? The black and white television shows? MD (00:32:17): I was not so much into TV, and I think it might have been because of the sports. And I did not watch a whole lot of TV. I cannot remember. I'd watch Soupy Sales when I was a kid, and the cartoon shows, and the Three Stooges, things like that. SM (00:32:33): You were not a Musketeer fan? MD (00:32:36): Nah, not really. Did not watch much of that. I do not know. My parents were, they were fairly strict around that stuff. I could not watch stuff like Gunsmoke or anything like that. SM (00:32:48): Oh, okay. Yeah. All the westerns. MD (00:32:50): Yeah, they would not allow that. And so I never watched much on TV other than sports. And then I really started getting into watching the news. Walter Cronkite I really liked to watch. [inaudible] SM (00:33:04): Yeah. Was that back, you mentioned that important event where Johnson decided not to run as being the probably the most important events in your life. Well, Walter Cronkite, he made a comment about Walter Cronkite. "Well, if Walter Cronkite's against the war, so that is all over for me." Or something like that. MD (00:33:26): In fact, I watched that. Johnson's basic resignation speech with my dad. And my dad, it really bothered him because Johnson had been so good for community colleges. He was so good on so many things, the great society programs and everything. And the war just undid him. SM (00:33:46): I am asking, where were you when you first heard John Kennedy was killed? MD (00:33:51): I was in the seminary. I was in class. All of a sudden, we got told that we had to go to assembly in the main assembly hall. They did not tell us why. And then everybody went over there and they began with a prayer. And then one of the priests came up and said that the president had been shot and he was in the hospital and we were going to pray for him and so on. And then even before that assembly got over, we were told that he was dead and that they were arranging, calling our parents to come and us take us home for a few days. SM (00:34:21): All right. Do you remember where you were when you heard about Martin Luther King's death? MD (00:34:31): Yes. Yeah, I was in Flint. I was at home at the time. That is when I was in, yeah. SM (00:34:41): Did they break into the TV or just radio or? MD (00:34:45): Yeah, I heard, yeah, it was all TV. It just came out all over the TV. SM (00:34:52): And how about the Bobby Kennedy assassination two months later to the day? MD (00:34:57): I was watching TV when that happened. I was watching it. Yeah, I was... MD (00:35:03): I was watching it. Yeah, 1968 probably was the most influential year in my life. I have to say that. There's so many things happened. I mean, you had Dr. King, Robert Kenned, you had the Chicago convention and just everything just blew up. SM (00:35:23): Ted was that year, too. MD (00:35:29): That is what happened. It was mind boggling. I mean, it was such a shift from the quiet 50 and growing up in Flint. SM (00:35:37): Did you ever think, some people have said that outside of the Civil War, this was the most conflicted period in American history, that we were close to a second civil war. Some people made those comments. Do you believe that? MD (00:35:54): Yes, I do believe that. And I mean, there was the racial tinder box that going on, and there was just, like I said, you had these radicals on the anti-war side that were willing to blow stuff up, had people on the other side who were awful, and there were movies that were glorifying the people who were pro-war and opposed all the poor hippies and stuff. And then of course, we had Merle Haggard song, Muskogee, even though that was the satire, some people took it seriously. So it was polarizing things. There was intentional polarization going on. And one of the things I witnessed that really had an impact on me is when I was at Michigan State, and I think it was 1969, there was a big anti-war march down to the state capitol in Lansing. And some guy driving, they had three lanes blocked off with the marches, and they were trying to get the traffic on the other lanes. And some guy just went crazy. And he just drove his car right into the crowd, even hit a motorcycle cop that I just was talking to, right by me. And I know I was just in shock. I was broken down in tears on the side of the road. I did not believe that. SM (00:37:17): Were any students really hurt? MD (00:37:19): A number of people got hurt, nobody got killed. The cop had a couple broken legs and a few other things. And then of course, some people just went crazy and started pounding and beating on the guy's car. And the police came and dragged him off. SM (00:37:33): Was he drunk or was he just did not like the protestors? MD (00:37:36): Did not like the protest. He just lost it. He snapped. And so, I could see where it has been real close, the people being pushed to start a civil war. There was always people that were, "We got to get guns, we got to get weapons, we got to be prepared and that." There was that whole faction always, but most people did not take that seriously. Yeah, I do not know. But I do think that people intentionally polarized the situation. SM (00:38:10): This question oftentimes is difficult to answer, but we are talking about 78 million people here who are the Boomer generation in which you are one. One of the criticisms, there's actually been a couple, but one of the criticisms of the generation is that, well, only 15 percent were ever involved in any kind of activism. 85 percent, just like anybody else, they did not do anything, just went on with their lives. But when you look at the 15 percent, that is a pretty big number out of 78 million. But just your thoughts on the Boomer generation, and maybe I am commenting on the 15 percent of the activist because it's hard to generalize on everybody. What do you think were some of the strengths and weaknesses of your generation? MD (00:38:58): Well, I think the greatest strength was the willingness to challenge the dominant paradigm, the accepted definitions of reality. And I think that goes on through today. Willingness to step outside of the status quo and take some risks that way. That I think that is probably the greatest strength of the whole Boomer generation. I think we had a more collective view, a collectivist view of the world that we are all in it together, it is not just me against the world or you and me against the world, and we are all in this together. I think that came about. I think the boundaries of community went from the local neighborhood to the state, to the country to encompass the whole world. And I think that brought about in our generation. That was a big strength, actually. SM (00:40:05): I know that politicians like Newt Gingrich and commentators like George Will, oftentimes when they get a chance, they take a shot at the (19)60s generation or that era in the (19)60s and (19)70s is the reason why we have a lot of problems in our society today. I know Newt Gingrich talked about this when he came into power in (19)94. He may run for president again, by the way. There is rumors that he may run against Obama. MD (00:40:32): Well, there is one of the problems with our generation. There is a lot of self-absorbed self-promoters. And I see that as undermining a lot of the good our generation has done. SM (00:40:46): Can you give some more examples of that? MD (00:40:49): Oh yeah. The whole nonprofit sector is just filled with people who are self-promoters. They attach themselves to a cause and it is not necessarily that it is their deep-seated beliefs in the cause of the matter. It is just a way for them to rise their star. And I have noticed that dramatically in the environmental movement. I have written about that a lot. And I think it kind of permeates non-profit culture, which is something that pretty much is a child of our generation too. Did not really exist until this much. And I do not know I what you do, I have been fighting that forever in the environmental movement with a lot of people, is how do you keep the issue being the main focus and not people's personalities and their need to lead or at least pretend that they are leading some movement and this and that. And that was going on in the peace movement too. And I just do not know. I think that may be our greatest weakness as a generation is we have not figured out how to deal with the self-promoters that undermine us. SM (00:41:58): You raised a good point here because obviously when you think about the environmental... I see that in other issues beyond the environment and also about politicians who latch onto an issue. And that is why Senator McCarthy is always in question. He was obviously deserving of what happened in 1968, but then all of a sudden he just dropped out. I know Bobby Kennedy was killed. But your thoughts on in Earth Day, which was a monumental happening on the 22nd of April in 1970, were you at the first Earth Day? MD (00:42:32): Yeah, I went to something at Michigan State University. There was some kind of tree planting ceremony and people playing Frisbee and flying kites and so on, and talking about the environment. SM (00:42:43): Well, I know the Earth Day in Washington it was just unbelievable. I know Dennis Hayes, who I have interviewed for this book, and of course Gaylord Nelson, he's passed away, but he was the former senator of Wisconsin. They were the two leaders of Earth Day. I think it was actually Gaylord Nelson's idea. And of course, he sat down with the anti-war movement to make sure that we are not challenging your anti-war movement, so there was a working there. But your thoughts on people like Dennis Hayes, who has been involved in this for his whole life, and certainly Gaylord Nelson, who was the senator who is the father of Earth Day, and he has done unbelievable things in Wisconsin. I went to his funeral and I cannot believe what he did there for the environment in Wisconsin. He seemed like the real deal. MD (00:43:36): Yeah, I really liked Earth Day. I wish we would get more in tune with the rest of the world. But the UN on the spring equinox is coming up this weekend, northern hemisphere, and the fall equinox in the southern hemisphere. I wish we were more in tune with the rest of the world on that. But obviously Earth Day is a great event and overdue. And of course it needs to be Earth Day every day. But I personally have some bad feelings toward [inaudible] so I do not know if it should go into that. SM (00:44:08): Me, I got to turn my tape here too. Can you hold on one sec? Individuals. I respect everybody's views. And of course I know Rachel Carson was another one, even though she's passed on. She was kind of a God. And I read her book and I do not think she was into self-promotion. She was just a great writer. MD (00:44:32): No, Rachel Carson was one of my all-time hero. Without a doubt. Her book influenced me a lot. My thing with Hayes, back in 1993 after Clinton was elected, and I was one of the people that was instrumental in starting the ancient forest protection movement. And Clinton was coming out here to hold a forest summit, as he called it. And so obviously there was going to be only a few people that had been on the summit. If there were thousands and thousands of actors that we had actually mobilized in order to get that issue made into a national issue. Which is one of my piece with institutional environmentalism today, they think that mailing lists and sign on letters constitutes activism. To me, it is mobilizing people. So it came to me. We had a big meeting of activists down the national park that when this happened, Portland, we need to throw a free concert and rally and get people there. And so, I drew up a plan for that. I started to shop. I was the vice president of the Oregon Natural Resources Council at the time, which was the statewide coalition. And so I drew up the plan, the proposal, and started shopping around everybody work, get the money to do this. And then I know some musicians, Baby Boomer musicians. So we contacted Carol King and Kenny Loggins and Bonnie Raitt and Jackson Brown. And I said, "Okay, are you guys into this? You are willing to help, da-da-da-da-da." Okay. And finally, Dennis Hayes, through the Bullet Foundation, got involved. And I got pitched overboard as well as most of the activists. And when the final day came, 70,000 people showed up. It was the biggest political rally in the history of Oregon. They surpassed this recently when Barack Obama came during the campaign. And it was incredible. And Neil Young, all sorts, David Crosby. SM (00:46:39): Oh, wow. You got them. I know how difficult they are to get anywhere. MD (00:46:43): Oh, I know. They were on our side. And so, then I have a friend who is, he is now the editor of Autobahn Magazine. At the time, he was one of the editors at Time Magazine, David Seidman. He had written a book about our efforts at Opal Creek called Showdown at Opal Creek. And so he came out to the rally and got to interview Neil Young and everybody. But Dennis Hayes went up and spoke to the people about the issue, which he was not really involved in. And then he actually had one of his minions tell David Seidman that the whole idea for the concert had come to him in a green dream that he had. And I am telling you, there is a paper trail as to where the idea came from. And so, David, of course, told me that, could not believe it either. So, part of me wonders what poor hippie Dennis Hayes stole the Earth Day idea from. SM (00:47:43): Well, I think it was Gaylord Nelson. MD (00:47:44): I know. SM (00:47:45): Yeah. Because Gaylord was the one that really came up with the idea. But he was also big anti-war. And he knew it could cost him his senatorial position, and he lost his senatorial position. MD (00:47:58): Well, anyway, that that is the sour taste in my mouth. And the fact that Clinton came out here and he restarted ancient forest logging, we had it stopped with an injunction and he got it be going now was the upshot of his. Well, the whole thing is in the history of our activist context, it is not that great. SM (00:48:18): But you are, when you hear the Gingrich's and the Wills make those comments about the Boomer generation, because he is referring to the increase in the divorce rate, the drug culture, all these negative things that he thinks had been gone into society. And even Barney Frank wrote a book called Speaking Frankly, and he was Mr. Democrat, who said that the Democratic party and McGovern had to get away from those kinds of people if they wanted to survive as a party. And he wrote that in the early (19)90s. Just your thoughts on those kinds of comments. They happen all the time. MD (00:48:56): Well, like I say, there are a lot of self-promoters that have had fairly free reign. There does not seem to be any way to check and balance them. So, I can see where there is a legitimate criticism there. The things that you were talking about specifically, Will bringing up the rise in the divorce rate. Well, I would say the dominant paradigm around relationships has totally shifted in my lifetime. It used to be that people got together and they stayed together even if they hated each other. SM (00:49:29): That is the (19)50s. MD (00:49:31): And then now you have this serial monogamy thing where people are with someone until death do your part. But that means the death of the relationship. And I do not know. I see a lot of people are not satisfied that either. So, I think we are still working on that one. SM (00:49:49): What are your thoughts? A lot of the Boomers thought they were the most unique generation in American history. When you hear people say that, what are your thoughts? MD (00:49:59): Oh, I just think that... SM (00:50:04): Because they were going to change the world, they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, bring peace to the world. That was the communal, the community feeling back. MD (00:50:15): Yeah. I feel like we had great ideals. Often, we were not very practical or pragmatic in carrying them out. And then a lot of times I think that we're up against such an established order that it is pretty hard to carry any of that out. I think that any of the positive changes that have happened have happened because of pressure. I do not think that power changes without pressure and cultural things do not change either without pressure. I always thought that it is a conceit that we are somehow the most unique generation. I mean I look at what my parents and my in-laws, that generation, the World War II generation was phenomenal. You look back, how about the people of the time of the Civil War. I mean, some it is apples and oranges things too. Each generation has to react to the challenges that happen during their lifetime. And some of them have. SM (00:51:24): What are the things that we have to admit though about this era? The times that Boomers, when I say they are young, I am talking about really the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and the (19)80s. I mean, I am talking about people in their 20s, 30s, and early 40s, because people are still young then. When you look at the period of all the movements, because obviously the civil rights movement was ongoing from the (19)50s. And the other movements learned from that movement, including the anti-war movement. And I have talked to people in the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, Blacks movement, Black power movement, and certainly the environmental movement. These are all very important. And there seem to be a sense of community within these groups so that if, for example, an environmental protest was happening, these other groups were there. The winds movement too. And I do not know if there is a camaraderie anymore between these groups. They all still exist in some way. But what has happened to the movement? MD (00:52:34): There has been more fragmentation there. And some of that I attribute to identity politics where people were so tied to their own identity thing that they cannot jump out of it enough and keep the connection with people in other things. And sometimes that just gets stirred. I have been involved with the American Indian movement too all along. I forgot to mention that. And so that is a huge part of the environmental movement still. SM (00:53:12): Did you go into that relationship, because I talked to Paul Chaat Smith on Washington. He wrote a book on the American Indian movement. And the American Indian movement heyday was (19)69 to (19)73. Those are four very powerful years. But I think it is very important, just what you said, the linkage between the Native American movement and the environmental movement. Expound on that, please. MD (00:53:34): Okay. Well obviously, there is some romanticism toward Native Americans and they live in harmony with the land and everything else. But in reality, most Native American cultures have a spiritual and social viewpoint that you do treat the earth as primary. So that fit right in. Some of my friends in the American Indian movement, John Trudel and Calvin Akaka and others clearly have an environmental views and have always been there and been on the side of the environment. It is always there. It is still there. The Native American movement, of course, that had a heyday and it kind is not officially any movement anymore. But people were there. And a lot of the people, some Boomers too, we are all same. And I think that is always been there. The threat of the land based on Native lands that Native people will control. And sacred lands that are now public lands that are being... So there's this natural symbiosis. There's an environmental law conference called the Public Interest Environmental Law Conference at the University of Oregon. It is the oldest one in the world, was out of Europe. And always there is a huge contingent of Native Americans that come and speak and are welcome. And I heard a whole gathering of Native elders talking about all the problems on the reservations and what's going on. And they are actually using the term extinction now to describe what's happened to their culture. I have never heard that used that before. SM (00:55:22): This is in the last couple years? MD (00:55:24): Just in the last couple years. SM (00:55:25): That is sad. MD (00:55:29): Yeah, I know. So that bond is there, that connection is there. It is tough because it is a different culture. And my grandfather's half [inaudible], and so was his mother and his father. And even though I was not raised in that culture at all, and my great-grandmother got forced to move to Oklahoma when she was a kid, but I did get to know her because she lived to 99. And so, I have an interest in it that way, but I am not from that culture. But maybe it's because I grew up being a minority in the minor neighborhood. I do not have that much of a problem. I can understand the various different cultures, but there is a lot of ways where white people just despite being just unconscious and insensitive, are awfully to Native people, even when they are on the same side. So, there is that friction, but the movement is there. The other movements involved, that I see the connections with, the radical environmental movement has been fragmented by the identity politics stuff. People who, for them being transgendered or the bisexual, gay, lesbian or even some other identity, whatever they got, hardcore women's movement, this and that. And they want to bring all the social justice issues to the forefront of the environmental issue. And it hamstrings the movement when you bring the movements together. And then the one movement only will participate if their cause is primary. SM (00:57:16): Yeah. You mentioned too, and I read something on the web that even groups like the Wilderness Society and the Sierra Club are who are, well, for the environment, obviously but they're afraid of non-violent protest. MD (00:57:32): Yes. SM (00:57:33): Even if the goal is nature. now, that is amazing because Gaylord Nelson was a lawyer for the Wilderness Society for many, many years until he passed. Could you say a little bit, why is it that these I guess the main line or mainstream environmental groups have issues with this? I think they would be praising. MD (00:57:57): I think it boils right down to the fact that they are preachers of the Democratic party and of the foundations that kill their coffers. And those entities are status quo entities. And so, they do not want to risk their access as they call it. Whether meaningful or not, they want to have access to politicians. And they also, of course do not want to risk their bottom line of their grant portfolios. So, it is one of those things follow the money, follow the power. It has been going on a long time. There's numerous books written it. There was an article in the Nation just last week about it. Jonathan Hari, H-A-R-I. SM (00:58:38): Oh, I subscribe to the Nation now. I think I have the issue. I have not read it yet. MD (00:58:42): Okay. It is called The Wrong Kind of Green. And Counterpunch has been writing about it for years. Jeffrey St. Clair wrote a book called Been Brown So Long It Looked Like Green To Me. SM (00:58:57): Oh wow. It was interesting because Gaylord Nelson was a lawyer at Wilderness for golly, God in a long time. But I took students to see him and all he talked about was the environment with the students, all the other issues... He kept saying, "Okay, we got problems between different cultures and different races, okay, but none of us would be here if we do not have an environment." Now, Gaylord Nelson to me was such a rare breed. And when he came to our campus twice, he talked about the fact of overpopulation. He kept saying this overpopulation is a big issue. And I am not sure if a lot of people were listening to him. He was kind of a guy out there... MD (00:59:43): Oh, you cannot get the big environmental groups to touch overpopulation with a 10-foot fall now. SM (00:59:49): That was one of the central pieces of his life. MD (00:59:53): Yeah. Yeah. I think what happens is these organizations, once they get, as a friend of mine once said, once an organization gains a life of its own, it will go down hard just like any other life form. And they become ossified. They have to maintain their empire, an empire building. The interest of the institution become primary over the cause. SM (01:00:20): Right. MD (01:00:22): And then that is the drawback in [inaudible]. SM (01:00:23): Did you have a generation gap between you and your parents? MD (01:00:28): I had a little bit of one. SM (01:00:30): What were the main issues between... The main issues? MD (01:00:34): Oh, mine were probably around the Catholic church. And I mean we were pretty much in agreement on the war. We were definitely in agreement on race. We were one of the last white families in the neighborhood. Everybody just disappeared. And my parents were not about to do that. So I guess the gap was more social stuff. Of course I was into experimenting with pot. After I was done with my athletic stuff. I was one of those classic your body is your temple. I did not even drink anything until I was 21. SM (01:01:16): Did you see amongst your friends that they were having issues with their parents? MD (01:01:20): Oh yeah. A lot of them were just totally at odds with their parents. SM (01:01:29): Yeah, obviously that was one of the main characteristics of that period. What are your thoughts, I know you cannot talk about 78 million people, but the Boomers that you have known in your life, do you think they have been good parents and good grandparents? And I say this, number one, have they shared the experiences of when they were young and do you think their kids were listening to them? And number two, have they kept their idealism or have majority of them you think moved on like all other generations? They go raised families, make money and survival and security's number one over ideals. MD (01:02:11): I think we may have been a more indulgent generation as parents in that we hover around kids more, are more protective. When I was a kid, I was outside all the time, running up and down the streets doing whatever, carrying on. And then I see my generation being way more protective of, was the other kid. Of course now with their grandkids. And I do not know, I think there was more of that kind of my generation, people who get a kid and they treated was the first child born in the Western world. There was too much of that in our generation, I think. And that can lead to self-absorbed people. SM (01:03:03): It is a term that I love and that is the word activism, but it is just me. I have this perception that universities did not learn from the activism of the students from the (19)60s and (19)70s, just like maybe they did not learn from the students of the 1930s that were very active on college campuses. As someone said to me, no matter what era, they are always going to be afraid of activists. But do you feel that the universities are afraid of student activism today on university campuses for fear that it may be similar to what transpired in the (19)60s and early (19)70s or where there was disruption? And of course, in this day and age, there's so many things wrong with our society that money's the bottom line that they cannot have activism because it could threaten the money flow. MD (01:04:03): I definitely think that is part of it. I was talking about that public interest environmental law conference at the University of Oregon. It used to be way more activist oriented and now it is more about collaboration with industry. And a lot of that is tied to big donors and corporations in the state leaning on the president of the university to tone it down. And they did. So, I have seen that work. It's hard to know. I know quite a few young people in their 20s that have come out of the university system that are activists. So, I think it is still happening, educating people and people making the right choices and trying to make change on the world look better and trying to keep having a collective view of the planet. But I do think that university has got scared off a bit. And I know I go to the universities now and it is all about building the buildings and it is all that kind of stuff. SM (01:05:14): But see, volunteerism is very important. I would be one to say that probably over 90 percent of college students are involved in volunteer of some sort. Some has required within fraternities and sororities and certain organizations. But then a lot of them do it on their own. MD (01:05:33): Well, I think that is key. SM (01:05:35): But see, that is volunteerism. But I have always been a believer that activism is the step beyond volunteerism, which is activism is more 24/7 or as volunteerism might be two to four hours a week or something like that. Your thoughts on that thought? MD (01:05:51): Well, I think that real successful activism is carried out by volunteers, people that are volunteering to do something because it is something really special to them. And it may be 24/7, and it involves a lot more organizing with people. It is one thing to be a volunteer, or be an activist that shows up at a rally. It is another thing to plan that rally and get other people out. And so that kind of activism... And I feel that this goes back to the whole thing of the big bean groups getting ossified stuff. Because I think they lose track of the fact that... David Brower had the statement that he felt you had to have at least 1000 members to justify one paid staff. And when he was strict this year, and I think that people gotten away from that. And the way I think it needs to work is you have to have a mass base of volunteer citizens who are active to jump and then you have to have a paid staff to carry out the will of the mass base. But that is been turned on its head. And now you have people who, because they have a paid job, they feel entitled to make decisions top down for the movement. And that does not work. I just see it never gets the good. Whereas volunteer citizen activism, maybe even involving non-violent direct action will get the good occasionally. But I have really seen that. So I think that volunteer citizen activism is the key. It is great that there is volunteerism going on and people are getting the taste of it. But yeah, you are right. It needs to be if you are going to be an activist it is 24/7. SM (01:07:38): Yeah. Yeah, I reflect a lot on my university experiences because the people that run the universities today are Boomers and generation Xers, the young generation. And what's interesting is that the Boomers experience the (19)60s and they know what it's all about in the universities and the generation Xers overall never really liked the Boomers. And so this is like, well, we're going to do it our way kind of mentality. So, I see a little bit of both. I have a question here too. And this is on healing. I took a group of students to Washington, DC quite a few years ago to see Senator Muskie. Of course, he was the vice-presidential running mate for Humphrey in (19)8. And the reason why we asked this question was similar to the one we were asking you about whether we were headed toward a civil war. And he responded to kind of unique way. But here is the question. Do you feel that Boomers are still having problems with healing due to the extreme divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, divisions between black and white, between men and women, division between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Do you feel the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the civil war generation not truly healing? Are we wrong in thinking this? Or has 35 or 40 years made the following statement true? Time heals all wounds. And then of course then we ask, has the Vietnam Memorial played any role in the healing process, not only for veterans, but the nation as a whole? Your thoughts on whether the Boomer generation, whether we are talking the 15 percent that were really activists, the people who served their country, Vietnam veterans, anti- war, all these movements we are talking about, even the conservatives that were young Americans for freedom, that we have a problem with healing as we head into old age. MD (01:09:44): Yes. I think there is a problem with the healing. But I think it is more of an institutional thing that there is people that have a stake in keeping the divisions going and sowing fear. Personally, I am very good friends with people that. SM (01:10:03): I am very good friends with people that are Vietnam veterans, and they do not hold anything against me for being a conscientious objector. I do not hold anything against them. In fact, I am saddened and angered about what happened to my brothers and sisters that had to go over there. I feel that, I think it is tragic. I do think the Vietnam Memorial has helped a lot for all of us. It is an incredibly moving place. I have been there. I have a brother who works for the Pentagon. I have good friends that are in the military. My father-in-law was a retired Air Force colonel. My father, my aunt, all my uncles are Vietnam, I mean, World War II vet. I do not have any problem with it, but I think there's an institutional thing [inaudible] keep us polarized that way in order to maintain power. It is the same people that are sowing fear all the time, maintaining power. I think there's, got a lot stacked against us as far as being able to pull that off. MD (01:11:17): Could you, you said, yeah, we have not healed. Could you be a little more specific on what are the areas where we have not healed? SM (01:11:27): Oh, I think it is incredibly hard still for people with different races just to be with one another, just to be. Just to be themselves and not have that be an issue. And politically. Whether you are a pacifist or whether you support the government, it is hard to get beyond that. I mean, I have, even within our families, [inaudible] and I think it is going to be very difficult and maybe to heal all that. There is a lot of acrimony that went on too. MD (01:12:10): I find it is interesting that even though President Obama, he tries to make a point that he is not a member of the Boomer generation. Yet he was born in, I think, (19)62, so he was only two years old. But a lot of people criticize him as being, well, this is the return of the (19)60s generation. They look at him as the return, and of course he denies that he has anything to do with it. So, you got to, denial, and then you have got people saying that he is carbon copy. SM (01:12:45): Well, I know if it was not for the (19)60s generation and the changes that happened, he had have never been elected. MD (01:12:50): Right. SM (01:12:51): Well, I just see him as another Ivy League elitist myself. MD (01:12:59): Well, I got to give him more time, but he cannot keep giving in. That is the only thing. If it means his election, then that is the way it is. The politicians, if they believe in something that they fight to the end, and if the vote voters throw them out, then they throw them out. But one of the, Senator Muskie said something interesting. His response to that question, because he was not well, he just gotten out of the hospital and he said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." He did not even comment about the (19)60s. And he went on to mention that over 400,000 men died in the war. Almost an entire generation passed away during that war. So, he talked about that the Civil War generation had not healed. So that is how he responded. And I think there's, what are your thoughts on that? You still have-have not healed since the Civil War? SM (01:13:57): I do not know. I think things were pretty unified after World War II. People were, it is pretty unified, and the center in American politics in an American culture was, it is certainly not where it is now. There was a lot more civility, and people, they had a shared, they just had a shared destiny that went on. And I think it got exacerbated during the (19)60s. I think the rise of the US as a global empire and all that that meant really kind of blew that out. MD (01:14:37): Did the college students play an important role in the war in Vietnam? And why did the war finally end, in your view? SM (01:14:45): I think college students played a huge role in ending the war. And I think it ended because it became obviously untenable. The internal contradictions just came to the surface, and it was bankrupting the country. And I think that it certainly had a huge role in ending the draft, which may have had consequences, too. I mean, now that college students do not have their lives on the line, they are less likely to speak out against the war. But I think what went on in the college campus was highly instrumental. I think all the demonstrations collectively helped lead to ending the war. And ultimately, and part of it was just a pure financial decision by the government. They just could not maintain it anymore. MD (01:15:47): It is interesting that the protests going on right now in California. I kind of admire the students because this is a pocketbook issue, just like the draft was an issue. And when they see something directly linked to them, and actually they are willing to pay a heavy price for their protests. So, I do not believe in the violence aspect, but I do, I admire them for speaking up and fighting 17 percent increases in tuition. One of the other issues that is very important is the issue of trust. I feel, my perception is that the Boomer generation is a generation that does not trust and did not trust for a lot of reasons, because so many of the leaders lied to them, whether it be Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin, whether it be Watergate with Richard Nixon. I remember even when Gerald Ford was going to pardon Richard Nixon, no one trusted him. They thought it was behind the scenes deal. Even Eisenhower lied on the U-2 incident. And even President Kennedy, they questioned whether he was involved in the coup to overthrow a Diem, even though he gave the order to do so. But he was really upset when he found out they were killed. Your thoughts on, you know being a student of that period that the Boomers did not trust university presidents, they did not trust governors, they did not trust politicians- SM (01:17:08): [inaudible]- MD (01:17:08): They did not trust anybody in the positions of leadership, no matter who they were. You think? This is a very negative quality for the generation, and have they passed this on to their kids and grandkids? And I preface this by saying that any good person who majors in political science is taught in political science 101 that not trusting your government is healthy because it is a sign that dissent is alive. SM (01:17:37): Yes. There is certain costs. When our basic trust was taken away from us by all those incidents over and over and over again, being lied to and misled, at one point, it is healthy because at least you are not naive. It gets you out of your naivete and gets you thinking more in the larger scale of things actually going on. I mean, that is how it worked with me. It was quite an eyeopener. And all of a sudden, I realized, wow, that does not make sense. That is not true, and that is not what ought to be happening. So, there is a positive aspect to it, but deep down, I would like to be able to trust more. But I think that wounded me. Probably I will go to my grave having doubts and distrust of people in positions of authority. And when I myself am put in position of authority, I am really-really-really careful. And that is another good part. I take those real seriously. MD (01:18:46): Were you influenced at all by the Beat generation, those writers in the late (19)50s, like Kerouac and Ginsburg? Because they were the precursors to the anti-establishment attitude of the (19)60s. Were they an influential at all on you? Did you read it or any of your friends read them? SM (01:19:03): Yeah, I did. Ginsburg, Kerouac, yeah, they were instrumental in my [inaudible]. There was kind of a, I do not know, as I got into my late teens, there was just a required reading list that you ended up reading, and they were part of that. But then I actually met and got to know a few of them, like Hugh Romney, Wavy Gravy. MD (01:19:30): Oh, you did? And you also knew Ken Kesey, did not you? SM (01:19:33): Yeah. I barely knew Ken, but I know Wavy from, I helped plan Rainbow Gathering. MD (01:19:39): Explain what that is. SM (01:19:41): Well, from about (19)71 to about (19)81, and Wavy was always involved in that. And so was Ram Dass. Ram Dass was another- MD (01:19:51): Yes. SM (01:19:52): ... good guy. He was an influence on me. And then of course, Ken is a friend of theirs. And... MD (01:20:00): Now what was, you helped organize this for 10 years? SM (01:20:03): Yeah, there is a whole crew of people that would get together and be the planning council and plan it for the year in advance and make sure everything worked. And then- MD (01:20:11): Where did it take place? SM (01:20:13): Well, they take place on National Forest Land every year on the 4th of July for a week. Called the Rain [inaudible]. A huge counterculture event. And still goes on. It's gotten huge, tens of thousands of people now. MD (01:20:32): Does it never come east? SM (01:20:33): Yeah, it has been in Michigan a couple times. MD (01:20:36): Oh, shoot. July 4th... When is the next one? SM (01:20:40): It will be this 4th of July. MD (01:20:42): I mean, where? Do you know where? SM (01:20:45): I am not sure where. You can go online, even have a website on it now. MD (01:20:48): And some of the people you worked with again were Wavy Gravy and Ram Dass? SM (01:20:53): Yeah, they were involved in the Rainbow Gathering. Wavy was the emcee for many years. MD (01:21:03): Oh my gosh. And Ram Dass, my God, his writings are so [inaudible]. SM (01:21:06): Yeah. And Ram Dass I got to note through that, plus Breitenbush Hot Springs out here in Oregon is an old hot springs resort that a group of friends of mine and I restored and run as a, it is an intentional community that Oregon allows you to have a worker-owner cooperative corporation. That and about 30,000 people a year coming at the- MD (01:21:31): Wow. SM (01:21:32): Kind of a conscious thing. You have everything from navel gazing exercises to workshops on massage and yoga. MD (01:21:39): Are they mostly Boomers or young? SM (01:21:42): Getting a lot younger, but- MD (01:21:47): Well, that is good. SM (01:21:47): Started out mostly boomers. It has a website too. Breitenbush, B-R-E-I-T-E-N-B-U-S-H. MD (01:21:53): Okay. I have got to check that out. SM (01:21:54): Yeah, you can check that out. Ram Dass is very good to us all along. He would come and hold big events there. 200 people would show up and they go on for a week. So yeah, I got the, basically, it is on the new age [inaudible] that I got to meet everybody. MD (01:22:16): Wow. SM (01:22:16): [inaudible]. MD (01:22:16): I have read quite a few of your articles. How did you get involved with Counterpunch? Because, and Alexander Cockburn, is he the kind of guy, I'd love to interview him. Would he be available for an interview, do you think? SM (01:22:28): He might, yeah. MD (01:22:28): How do you get ahold of him? SM (01:22:28): I will send you his email. MD (01:22:37): Okay. Yeah, because now I am reading those all the time. SM (01:22:39): Okay. MD (01:22:39): Because I find you are a very good writer, in my opinion. And I like the one you did on Carrie, and I like this one I just read recently where you talked about criminalizing dissent. SM (01:22:53): Yes. MD (01:22:54): Where you talked just briefly about, well, you had mentioned about the Wilderness Society of Sierra Club, but then you talked about the rat inflation. You compare COINTELPRO to what happened in the (19)60s to what is happening now with the environmental groups with Operation Backfire. SM (01:23:11): Yes. MD (01:23:12): And please explain that. Please, people that are reading this do not know a lot. So, you will be reading these interviews. First off, explain what COINTELPRO is in the (19)60s, and of course I know what it is. And then how you see the link between the environmental activists of today. SM (01:23:34): Okay. So COINTELPRO in the (19)60s was an FBI undercover operation where they were planting operatives in all the progressive movements of the day. And famously doing stuff like writing letters between the Black Panthers and other groups disparaging each other, phony letters. One of them led to a famous shootout at the UCLA campus, even. And they did stuff like that. They would plant this information, they would plant people who had snitched on people, and they would also plant agent provocateur. I know that some of the famous incidents were ROTC buildings were burned during the (19)60s, that those were actually agent provocateurs of the government that set those up and did those. MD (01:24:23): Think that was Kent State, too? SM (01:24:25): I do not know about Kent State, but I am pretty sure the University ROTC and the Michigan State University ROTC were agent provocateur led. MD (01:24:35): Okay. SM (01:24:35): There were always people that were trying to get people to be more radical, more violent, more this and that in order to dispute [inaudible] movement. And a lot of that came from within the government itself. And then now in honor days, we have an active radical environmental movement where people are willing to go out themselves with bulldozers, blockade roads, do whatever, to try to stop degradation of the environment. And then all of a sudden it took a little bit more of a violent wing and people started burning stuff down. And then when it came out, finally, and who was behind all this? There were agent provocateurs from the government involved. There were undercover officers from the government involved, egging people on, breaking them to do more violent stuff. And it just smacks with COINTELPRO. COINTELPRO also infiltrated the American Indian movement and famously planted the false information that Anna Mae Aquash was an informant, which got her killed, American Indian movement. So, I see a real similarity there that anytime anybody's advocating radical change that challenges the status quo and the financial interest of the government, the government is going to put undercover operatives in, and one of the things they do is to try to get people to, people are upset and they are angry and try to get them to do something crazy and more violent. MD (01:26:08): Well, I know they were involved in the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, and I think in some respects, even the women's movement. SM (01:26:17): Yeah, it is a way to sow dissent and bring movement down and get people, everybody looking over their shoulder and being suspicious of their comrades and other allies. MD (01:26:30): I was really, in reading some of the literature that the two most investigated people with the FBI files, well, actually there is three, but Martin Luther King- SM (01:26:44): I know one of them. MD (01:26:44): Huh? SM (01:26:44): I know one of them. MD (01:26:44): Martin Luther King, Jr. was one of them. Eleanor Roosevelt had the second largest FBI file. Can you believe that? SM (01:26:51): I can believe it. MD (01:26:53): And John Lennon. John Lennon had a big file. Those three I know are man of files. SM (01:26:59): My friend John Trudell has a 17,000 page [inaudible]. MD (01:27:03): He has a what? SM (01:27:04): 17,000 page FBI file. John Trudell. He was the chairman of the American Indian Movement. MD (01:27:10): Oh my God. SM (01:27:11): And he was involved when they took over Alcatraz. MD (01:27:13): Yeah. Let me change my tape here. Hold on one second. Yeah. One of the questions I have here, too, is the music of the period. Obviously, the music of the (19)60s and (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s was very influential because of the messages within the music. What was the most important music to you? And when you talk about the environmental movement of today, are they using music? Because music seems to be very important in sending messages. Just so I am talking about music from the (19)60s' influence on you, and then whether the movement is using music today. SM (01:28:06): Oh, huge influence on me. And of course, I still listen to the same music. I get accused by my younger friends never changing it. But yeah, Stevie Van Zandt gave a great speech last night at the inducting the Hollies into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. And he totally touched on that, the power of the music of the (19)60s. MD (01:28:28): That was in Cleveland, was not it? SM (01:28:36): I do not know where the- MD (01:28:36): Yeah, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is in Cleveland. SM (01:28:36): Yeah. I do not know where they hold the ceremony, but- MD (01:28:38): The Hollies- SM (01:28:39): ... I saw Jackson, Jackson was there. He was inducting David Geffen in, and then Iggy Pop got inducted, which is great. MD (01:28:49): Oh, that is great. SM (01:28:50): But yeah, the (19)60s movement music was... Growing up a kid in Flint, of course, Motown was the type of music I listened to growing up. And then all of a sudden, the stuff that, the song that shifted my perspective on music was For What It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield. And that really impacted me. MD (01:29:18): What was that song? The words? SM (01:29:20): Oh, the one. There is something happening here- MD (01:29:23): Oh- SM (01:29:23): ... exactly clear. MD (01:29:24): There is a man with a gun over here? SM (01:29:25): Yeah. MD (01:29:26): Yeah. That, okay. SM (01:29:26): Yeah, it was about protest down in LA that took place. So yeah, those guys impacted me immensely. And then Woodstock. It was a cultural, spiritual, and political event. I passed up on a ticket to go, I could have gone, but I never did. But it was an incredibly moving event. And so there was this cultural just flashpoint that took place, even though things were, it seemed like the darkest hour with leaders being assassinated and the war going on, there was this music that was speaking to a larger perspective, a commonality of humanity and how we could get through it all together and how we are all in it together. And it was a huge shift. It was not just a, oh, boy, girl, boy, girl, love you till the end. Oh, broke up, the stuff of... Marvin Gaye put out the album What's Going On. MD (01:30:30): Oh, yes. SM (01:30:30): It was staggering to me. Occasions of that. MD (01:30:34): 1971. SM (01:30:36): Yeah. And I mean, things were really shifting. Questions were being asked, and they were being asked by the best musicians of the day, too. So they were getting the airplay. Joni Mitchell, and there were some incredible musicians that were addressing the stuff that mattered to me. They were speaking the stuff that mattered to my generation and to me. MD (01:31:05): When you think of the period, there are often quotes or famous lines that were used that signified a period. I want you to react to something that I have been asking about the last 20 people. I did not do with some of the early ones. And that is that there are three, and then someone told me a fourth, there are three well lines that I think kind of exemplified the Boomers. The first one is Malcolm X, when he says, "by any means necessary," which kind of defines the militant activism, the black power, possibly the onset of violence. Then you got Bobby Kennedy's using Henry David Thoreau's quote, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." And that symbolizes the activist mentality, the questioning act that you talk about in the environment movement and elsewhere, that activists taking a stand on issues from justice and what they thought was right in our society or wrong in our society. And the third one was a Peter Max painting that most people had not heard this quote, but it was very popular on college campuses in 1971 when I was at Ohio State. And on the poster it said, "You do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful," with symbolized a more kind of a hippie counterculture mentality. And the fourth one that was brought up to me was the civil rights, "we shall overcome." And then someone mentioned, John Kennedy's "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Those are the kind of four, three, four five, that kind of symbolize the Boomer generation. Are there others that might have had an influence on you? Other quotes? SM (01:32:51): Oh, I like those quotes. John Kennedy had one that I really like, first. And that is that "War will be with us until the day when the conscientious objector has the same status as the hero," or something to that effect. And of course, he had some thereafter, but that was a great- MD (01:33:11): That was Robert Kennedy, right? SM (01:33:12): No, it was John Kennedy. MD (01:33:13): Oh, John Kennedy. SM (01:33:15): Yeah. MD (01:33:15): Okay, I did not know that one. SM (01:33:17): I will look that up and email that to you, too. MD (01:33:18): Okay. SM (01:33:19): Great quote. But yeah, I like all those quotes. By any means necessary one is a little threatening to me because I think people can justify all kinds of being- MD (01:33:30): Right. Then of course, Eisenhower had the military industrial complex, which was- SM (01:33:35): Right, that one. MD (01:33:36): That was right on too. There are pictures. Pictures are often say a thousand words. There is three that came to mind with me, but I am not going to mention them. When you see the pictures of the first say, 40 years of the Boomers' lives, what are the pictures that come to your mind that really, if someone were to look at them, they would say, yep, that was that era. SM (01:34:00): Oh, photos? MD (01:34:02): Yep. Pictures that were in the news. SM (01:34:05): Oh, I would probably say a real big one was pictures of the atomic bomb test in Bikini Atoll. There is the picture where the South Vietnamese officer executed the guy on the street. That really had a huge impact. And then, I do not know, for me, almost any of the pictures of Woodstock, especially the ones that of just people holding themselves together and going through that. Those are pictures that impacted me. MD (01:34:42): The three pictures that I had picked was the girl running down in Vietnam with a burn. SM (01:34:50): Oh, right. Yeah. MD (01:34:50): And then the girl over the dead body at Kent State. SM (01:34:53): Yeah, that is another one. MD (01:34:54): And then the three athletes in with the black power fist, Tommie Smith and John Carlos. SM (01:35:00): John Carlos, those guys are heroes. That really impacted me. MD (01:35:08): I have got some other things here. I am just trying to make sure, before I go into a section where I just ask your opinions on names and personalities. Make sure I got all my questions here. Robert Reagan, in 1980, when he came into power, he said, "We are back." And I think he was making a reference to, we are beyond the (19)60s and the (19)70s now and all that stuff. And the breakdown of the military. We're back. And then George Bush in 1989 when he became president, he said, "The Vietnam syndrome is over." And those were two Republican presidents back to back. Your thoughts on Reagan and Bush and their thoughts on, because now the Boomers are in their (19)40s, and just your thoughts on those two and what they said. SM (01:35:58): Well, I think that the Imperial presidency in the US's Empire was fully under underway when Reagan got elected. And so I just see them as basically the emperors that were Imperial policy. And so I think they felt the need that they needed to put to rest a lot of the issues that were raised by Vietnam. But I do not know, the Vietnam syndrome to me seems contrived. And I think the same stuff is still going on. Same Imperial overreach is going on, the same corporate takeover of the government. All that is happening. And I think they were trying to diffuse that, trying to push that aside and become more ascendant with the corporate Imperial stuff. MD (01:36:55): If you are a Boomer and you are in a conversation and we get involved in a confrontation in any part of the world, when you bring up the word Vietnam or the word quagmire, it seems to always get a reaction. And I get a feeling like, please shut up. We're living, the reaction I feel when I bring it up or others is, come on, this is the year 2010. Quit talking about something that happened back in 1975, Vietnam and the quagmire, that is past history. So I feel guilty, and I wonder how many other Boomers feel the same way. It is like we do not learn history's lessons, so if we bring up history, they do not want to be reminded of it. I do not... SM (01:37:40): Oh, I can understand why they would not want to be reminded of it. But to me, that is all the more reason why you need to bring it up more so that it is not lost and the lessons are not lost because the same mistakes are being made over and over again. So if you can, one good way not to learn from history is to suppress the history. And so, I think there is institutions that have a stake in suppressing it, so they have conditioned people that way. No, but I can understand why younger people might want to say, "Oh, I am tired of that. That happened way back then, and let us deal with what is going on now." But I also run into a lot of younger people that really want to know, they want to know more of the history. MD (01:38:25): Well, the millennial students are the ones in college now, and we did programs on bringing Boomers and Generation X together at my university in the (19)90s, and Generation Xers, I cannot speak for them all, obviously there are good ones. But they had problems with the Boomers in many ways. And of the two panels that we had made up of university and regional faculty members and the college students of Westchester is that they responded in two ways. Either I am sick and tired of hearing about what it was like then and quit talking about it and move on with your life. And the other ones would say, geez, I wish I had causes like you had. We do not have any causes or issues today. And that was the kind of reaction that Generation Xers had. And Generation Xers did not seem to get along too well with Boomers. I do not know if you have noticed that in your life. SM (01:39:24): Well, I think it might be that 15 percent, 85 percent lifting again, and basically in all generations there is going to be 15 percent that really do have an altruistic view and want to do something outside of self. And I find them, I have got a number of friends in their twenties now, close friends, partly through my association with Breitenbush, and I really like them. And they are, by and large, are the ones that are trying to expand their conscious and reach out and have a larger worldview. And so we have very much in common. I do not even feel like the age difference matters. MD (01:40:05): That is good. Could you talk- SM (01:40:06): I think it is just going to, there is going to be a percentage of every generation. It is just like I was honored in my life to know some people who were part of the original Red Scare that were called before the House on American Activities Committee. There was a certain percentage of people in that generation. So, I think every generation has, and then a lot of people are just, they do not want to rock the boat. The whole idea of rocking the boat and challenging the dominant paradigm is scary to them. So, they just assume not hear it. MD (01:40:41): Your- SM (01:40:42): One more thing, I can understand some of the antipathy toward the Baby Boomers because the Baby Boomers are now the bosses. They are the people that own, they're in charge of your job. So the younger people have to deal with that. And so that is always going to be a friction. And I do not think it relates specifically to Baby Boomer generation. It is just whenever you have an older generation and those kind of [inaudible] power, I think that that kind of disparity will always cause a little friction. MD (01:41:14): I think what has happened is that sometimes when the Generation Xers and who are now also in power, just like Boomers, they are also bosses now, too. If they are going to blame Boomers on things, they need to blame themselves, too, because they are now in leadership as well. Yeah, before I finish up here with these names, could you talk to how important it is for the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front, and to get a better understanding for people that read this, how important these activist groups are? I admire you for the comments that you have made, that you do not like terrorism and violence, and you have already brought that up into your articles because that often sends wrong messages, just like Black Panther Party and the Weathermen did in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Your thoughts on how important those two movements are today? SM (01:42:11): I think those movements are important in the fact that they are kind of like the gateway movement for getting more younger people involved. If there is a lot of passion in those movement, so a lot of younger people get involved. At the same time, I am appalled that there is some glorification of violence that goes on, and partly because I do not like violence, plus I challenge the efficacy of doing that, do not see how that ever works. But at the same time, they are important parts of the activist movement, certainly in the environmental movement. I understand the frustration of people in both those movements. I know some of the people, I know people that are in prison right now because they acted upon their beliefs there. They did not make the right choices. But I understand their position, and I think they are right. I think we have to get away from our anthropomorphic, anthropocentric viewpoint, I guess you would have to call it, yeah, anthropocentric viewpoint and look on the world as being one part of a larger hole. I think those are the people that are onto that. So yeah, I think it is a way for, I do not know, there is a lot of young people that are angry about looking at the future, the future of the Earth that is going to be here as they get older. MD (01:43:49): What are your thoughts of Al Gore and the Inconvenient Truth? SM (01:43:52): Well, part of me thinks that Al Gore's a profiteer profiteering on the corpse as it goes down with all his carbon cap and trade and carbon credits. I mean, buying carbon offsets to me is like the church in the Middle Ages selling indulgences. So, I do not particularly like that, and Al Gore is making a lot of money off of it, but I am completely in agreement that the level of carbon in the atmosphere is at a dangerously toxic level. And it is going to really change things if we do not get our act together and do something about it. So, I guess I like the message more than I like the messenger. MD (01:44:37): Yeah, because somebody says he flies in a private plane. I do not know. SM (01:44:41): Oh yeah, I know, he's cut to Utah. I mean, my friends Jeff St. Clair and Al Cockburn wrote a book called Al Gore: A User Manual back in 1998, and I think they nailed it. MD (01:44:55): I like his story, though, because as a Boomer, as a young man in Harvard, he was influenced by a professor. That is a very good start. SM (01:45:01): Yeah. MD (01:45:03): And I- MD (01:45:03): That is a very good story. And I also liked, from reading one of the books, about how he challenged President Clinton in a meeting after the second year. It was monumental, first time they had ever had friction, and where he told him, "You are doing absolutely nothing on the environment." And boy, he got mad. And of course, I do not think there is any love lost between those two now. SM (01:45:27): Yeah, I just kind of wish that he was not such a cartoon figure, because it allows the other side to discredit the message. And that he was not also making so much money off of it. In each case, it allows them to discredit the message. MD (01:45:45): Good points. SM (01:45:45): But yeah, I think he is right on. Level of carbon in the atmosphere is a huge, huge threat. It is a fact, existential threat. MD (01:45:52): I am at the part, which is the last part of the interview, which is just to respond to either terms, events, or personalities of a period. You do not have to go in any in depth. SM (01:46:03): Okay. MD (01:46:04): What do these mean to you? What does, again, the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? SM (01:46:14): It means to me, oh, I cannot even think about it without even crying. And I think it cost our generation enormous, Vietnam did. And the memorial is a huge step in trying to heal that. But... MD (01:46:32): What does Kent- SM (01:46:33): We lost a lot of really, really fine people, Vietnam. MD (01:46:38): Yes. We did, 58,000. And one of the things we learned from that war, too, is we must care about those on the other side, 3 million dead. SM (01:46:48): I know it. MD (01:46:48): That is very sad. What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? SM (01:46:53): Well, it means an end of innocence for me. That really shocked me out of my college jacket, intellectual, innocence, those events. MD (01:47:09): What does Watergate mean to you? SM (01:47:20): Oh, it means that it just shows how corrupt the government was. But at the same time, I think it was overplayed. I think Nixon committed far more crimes than that, far worse ones. That seemed to be the way that they could get him. MD (01:47:31): What does Woodstock and the Summer of Love, two different events, one in (19)67, one in (19)69. SM (01:47:37): Right, the Summer of Love. I had no idea that it even was going on, because I was in such a cocoon, back in school in Flint. MD (01:47:42): Right? SM (01:47:44): But when I look back on it, I see that that is a remarkable awakening in our culture. And I think Woodstock as well. I think those are incredible cultural events. Hopefully there is a future in a hundreds of years from now, people will be studying them. MD (01:48:00): What does the term counterculture mean to you? SM (01:48:05): Oh, it is a grab bag term that describes people that wanted to see something else other than the work working for the establishment as being your future. 2.3 kids, and a dog, in a house in the suburbs, there was an opportunity to do something else. MD (01:48:26): What do the hippies and yippies mean to you? SM (01:48:30): I think the hippies to me were less political than the yippies. The hippies were more the cultural wing of the movement, and the yippies were more of the political wing of the counterculture. I like both entities a lot. Hippies and the yippies. MD (01:48:58): What does SDS and The Weathermen, two separate things, even though they became one? SM (01:49:04): Right. Well, I think SDS was a remarkable organization. The founding principles were fabulous, and I think it really did shift the politics on the campuses around the country. I think The Weathermen was going a bit too far. I think The Weatherman, people just got so frustrated, and angry, and they went over the line. And I think that The Weathermen was a reason for the government to use the backlash against the counterculture. MD (01:49:40): How about the Vietnam veterans against the war? SM (01:49:44): Oh, one of the great organizations ever founded. Yeah. MD (01:49:51): How about the Young Americans for Freedom? I do not know if you knew that group. SM (01:49:54): Yeah, I know who they are. I actually caught a couple of their lectures at college. I knew, Rockwell, was that his name? MD (01:50:01): Yeah. SM (01:50:03): Yeah, he came to college when I was there, at the junior college, the community college. I thought they were rather racist, and elitist, and did not have much of a collective consciousness, that is for sure. Or a democratic consciousness. MD (01:50:24): How about the Black Panthers and Black Power? SM (01:50:29): I thought the whole Black Power Movement and the Black Panthers, they certainly had a point. But at the same time, once again, I think they went overboard. And being someone myself who was highly involved in Civil Rights Movement stuff, I think one of the out growths of the Black Panther, the militancy of it, was that people like myself who had the wrong color of skin were kind of driven out. And it became unsafe for me to be as involved as I had been. MD (01:51:03): What did you think of the enemy's list? SM (01:51:07): Oh, Nixon's enemies list? MD (01:51:07): Mm-hmm. SM (01:51:09): Oh, I figure that they always existed. I think they probably still do. And I think that it was an incredible evidence of the amount of paranoia that occurs in an empire. MD (01:51:28): How about My Lai? SM (01:51:28): My Lai? MD (01:51:28): Mm-hmm. SM (01:51:28): Oh, just awful. I do not know, one greatest injustices of all time. MD (01:51:37): Tet? SM (01:51:37): Ted? MD (01:51:40): Tet, T-E-T. SM (01:51:41): Oh, Tet. MD (01:51:42): That really began (19)68. SM (01:51:44): Right. Tet is very amazing to me, because it was a case where the National Liberation Front lost the battle and won the war. And it just showed me that all the other rules of wealth warfare did not apply anymore. MD (01:52:09): 1968, I think you already made comments on this. SM (01:52:12): Yeah, I think 1968 was, certainly in my lifetime, is the watershed year. MD (01:52:20): Okay. Now these are personalities, and again, just quick responses. Tom Hayden? SM (01:52:28): Are you hearing a buzz on the phone? MD (01:52:28): Yeah, I am. It could be the FBI. SM (01:52:30): Let me check. Let me try this other phone. (01:52:37): Hello? MD (01:52:38): Yeah, it is happening here too. SM (01:52:41): Oh, okay. It is in both phones. MD (01:52:42): It must be my phone. SM (01:52:43): Yeah, right? MD (01:52:44): Well, I am on the FBI's... I am not on their list. Tom Hayden? Still there? SM (01:52:54): Well, I just see him as a kind of a political gas line. MD (01:52:58): Jane Fonda? SM (01:53:00): Same thing. Yeah, I think that Jane Fonda had a lot of good things to say. And I think she has been unfairly excoriated. MD (01:53:13): John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy? SM (01:53:17): I think they were our last hope. Last great hope. They were, what are the Gracchi Brothers of America. MD (01:53:26): Eugene McCarthy? SM (01:53:29): Oh, I like Eugene McCarthy a lot. I think he had a lot of courage, and I kind of wish he would have stuck it out more. MD (01:53:36): George McGovern? SM (01:53:38): Same thing. I do not know what happened. They stood up for all the right principles and then disappeared. MD (01:53:44): Sargent Shriver and the Peace Corps. SM (01:53:47): Oh, I think the Peace Corps and other great society programs are one of the greatest contributions we have ever made. It is unfortunate it only head start in the Peace Corps and the Job Corps bill exist, but I think all of them collectively were one of the great social justice experiments ever. MD (01:54:03): Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X? SM (01:54:08): Both great leaders. Martin Luther King, Jr. might be the greatest leader in my lifetime that I have known or heard about. Malcolm X, again, I had problems with his religious bent and his militant bent. Other than that, I think he was a great leader as well. Incredible points. I read his autobiography and I was very moved by it. MD (01:54:38): Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford? SM (01:54:43): Oh, Ronald Reagan, I see him as kind of the solidifier of the end of the US being a democratic republic and moving on to being a corporate empire. So, I do not have a lot good for Ronald Reagan. Though even some of his stuff. One of the greatest quotes of all time, I think is his quote, "Trust, but verify." MD (01:55:06): Oh yeah. SM (01:55:07): I totally buy that. I think it is of the great quotes. But Gerald Ford, I have softened a lot on Gerald Ford over time. I actually think Gerald Ford was a good guy. MD (01:55:19): How about Jimmy Carter and Dwight Eisenhower? SM (01:55:27): I like Jimmy Carter. And I like him a lot more as an Ex-president than I did as President. I think he is a great role model. Dwight Eisenhower, another one. The guy was a hero, and he also was willing to take on some of the powers to be. And at the same time, he was part of the whole power structure. But I think Eisenhower was okay. MD (01:55:54): Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew? SM (01:55:57): Oh, okay. Well, Spiro Agnew, I have hardly anything good to say about. I think the guy was a crackpot. But Richard Nixon, mixed bag. I think he is the greatest environmental President. He basically saved more land than any other President. Cast far more environmental laws than any other President. I signed them. At the same time, he was a war criminal and a paranoid war criminal at that. MD (01:56:25): Then of course, LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? SM (01:56:29): Okay. LBJ, socially maybe certainly the greatest President of my lifetime, as far as comes the social causes and getting that part right. At the same time, undone by the war in his inability to control the Pentagon. Hubert Humphrey, part of me sees him as a political hack. Was it Hunter Thompson said he had the greatest case of blue balls for the presidency ever? MD (01:57:04): Yeah. SM (01:57:04): I think he would have done anything just to get elected. I worked for him when he was running. Because while he was the only one running. By that time, in (19)68. And I was just real disappointed when he lost. MD (01:57:16): If he had gone another week, he probably would have won. Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the yippies? SM (01:57:24): Oh, a mixed bag. I like them bringing a lot of stuff to the forefront, but I think they were pretty relentless self-promoters. And that eventually detracted from the message. MD (01:57:38): Chicago Eight or Chicago Seven? SM (01:57:41): Yeah, Chicago Eight, that had a big impact on my life. I think all those people were incredibly well-meaning, incredibly good people. They were on the right side. They did everything right, and the government trying to destroy them the way they did was, it focused our generation, or at least the activist part of it. MD (01:58:04): How about the women leaders, Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, that group. Shirley Chisholm was in there too. SM (01:58:12): Yeah, there were a lot of great women leaders at that time. Same, has kind of a checkered little history there, being lovers with all these rich, wealthy men, and possibly some ties with the CIA. But the rest of them, I really liked. Betty Friedan was great. Germaine Greer, there were a number of women leaders that, I read their stuff and I really agree with it. Still do. MD (01:58:37): How about the Black Panther individuals, because there unique? There's Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, H. Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael, David Hilliard, and the one that was killed in Chicago, I think it was Norman? SM (01:58:55): Fred Hampton. MD (01:58:55): Fred Hampton. All different and unique. SM (01:58:58): Yeah, some of the Panthers were tireless, self-promoters. And some of them never could get out of the street, like Huey Newton and Cleaver. They kind of became cartoons. But a lot of them were real well-intentioned people, and set up some really good programs, and really helped out. MD (01:59:18): How about- SM (01:59:21): Same bag. You had your mix of self-promoters and people that were really solid on the issues. MD (01:59:27): Communes? SM (01:59:29): Oh, I think the commune movement is one of our better experiments. I was part of the whole Back to the Land movement. Of course, Breitenbush Hot Springs was an intentional community and still going strong. MD (01:59:43): How do you relate to people who say it was a bunch of dropouts, that they went from being we to nothing but me? So that is a criticism of the communal movement. SM (01:59:59): Yeah, I would say there is a certain amount of self-absorption and me first stuff that goes on in the communal movement. But to me, just the fact that people are willing to take the challenge, and take the risks, and try to find something that might work better, is just the experiment itself has value. Whether people stick it out or do not stick it out, I think it is a huge part of the landscape and a huge part of what happened. And I am glad it happened, glad it is still going on. Certainly, it is less than it was. And at Breitenbush Hot Springs, in the (19)80s, we used to have communities conferences, where once a year we would get people from all the various communes in the northwest together, and come and make it... It was a great event. MD (02:00:43): The male liberation movement came out of that too, did not it? SM (02:00:46): The what? MD (02:00:47): The male liberation movement came out of that in the early (19)70s. SM (02:00:50): Oh, the male? MD (02:00:51): Yeah, where men would start taking care of the kids more as a shared. SM (02:00:56): Yeah. Yeah, that is true. In our early days, we required all parents to do a childcare shift a week with all the kids. We did all that, yeah. MD (02:01:05): Yeah. Dr. Benjamin Spock. SM (02:01:09): Oh, Dr. Spock was a great hero. And then, I do not know so much about his childcare rearing books and techniques, but just the fact that he was so forceful on the war, and social justice causes, to me, makes him one of the all-time heroes. MD (02:01:25): How about Daniel and Philip Berrigan? SM (02:01:29): Oh, two of the heroes for me, for sure. MD (02:01:31): I met them both and knew them both. SM (02:01:33): Wow. Way to Go. Being a Catholic boy and stuff, it was always great to have that wing of the church represented. And they did it more eloquently, and they were willing to put their own selves on the line more than almost anybody ever saw. Just a great model of passivism. MD (02:01:52): Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers? SM (02:01:55): Oh, that was one of the most heroic acts of all time. MD (02:02:02): Woodward and Bernstein? SM (02:02:07): I like what they did. I am not so sure over time that they themselves stand the test of time. MD (02:02:14): Does not seem like we have the investigative journalists anymore. SM (02:02:17): Yeah. MD (02:02:18): The original seven astronauts? SM (02:02:20): Well, I do not know, I never quite got into that much. Obviously, they were pretty heroic. And right there, and some of them use the opportunity to speak about the earth and then the fragility of the planet. And I really like that about them. MD (02:02:42): Robert McNamara and John Dean, two different people. SM (02:02:47): Oh, I think John Dean is the hero. And I think he still is. Robert McNamara, I think he is one of the great war criminals and economic criminals in history. MD (02:03:00): Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali? SM (02:03:05): Oh, two of the great towards and social people of all time. Muhammad Ali might be one of the greatest people of our generation. Certainly you go around the world and everybody knows who he is. And he is highly respected. Probably he and Bob Marley are the only two people like that. MD (02:03:24): How about Bill Clinton and George Bush II? SM (02:03:33): I think both of them collectively brought an enormous amount of disrepute on the Baby Boomer Generation. I am embarrassed that they're the first two Baby Boomer Presidents. MD (02:03:43): Explain that. SM (02:03:47): I feel that both of them are examples of what the worst of what we were talking about, the first aspects of the Baby Boomer Generation. They were in it for personal gain and expediency, and they just did not share the deep-seated values of the generation. MD (02:04:11): How about Angela Davis and Timothy Leary? SM (02:04:20): I got mixed feelings on both of them. I think Angela Davis did a lot of stuff, but I think she flirted too much with the violence that was going on, and bought into that. Leary, some of Leary's stuff is brilliant. I think he might be one of the smartest people in his generation. I read stuff that he wrote that was absolutely brilliant. And at the same times I have got all sorts of problems with the way he died and all the things around that. I think that was out of line. MD (02:04:50): How about Attica and certainly George Jackson who was linked to Angela Davis in the prison reform movement? Prison rights. SM (02:05:00): Yeah, I think that prison rights needed to happen, and it is a tragedy that the way it happened with Attica. And I think that the government incredibly overreacted and a lot of people died, both guard and prisoners, that did not need to happen. But it did focus on the whole thing on the prison movement. I think that issue has been put on a back burner and it is nowhere near resolved. MD (02:05:25): A lot of people think George Jackson was set up. SM (02:05:29): Yeah. MD (02:05:30): And he was murdered right there, or killed right there in the prison. John Lennon and the Beatles? I separate John Lennon from the rest of the Beatles, but John Lennon himself, and then the Beatles? SM (02:05:46): Well, I think John Lennon is a hero. The guy never backed down in his quest for promoting peace on the planet. Yeah, peace and love, and a lot of good things that came about because of John Lennon, the music and the way he lived his life. The Beatles themselves, obviously phenomenal, great musicians. And they were some of the first that took it from the boy meets girl, the love forever, into actually speaking about social causes that mattered. And I will always respect them for that. MD (02:06:28): How about Barry Goldwater and William Buckley? SM (02:06:33): Oh, they are two of the conservatives that I would actually listen to. I think they had a lot of integrity, and they could speak intelligently, and they were not just out there fanning the flames of fear, which is what I see the conservative movement has evolved into. MD (02:06:51): The Little Rock Nine? SM (02:06:55): Oh, you mean the students that were? MD (02:06:58): Yeah, the high school. SM (02:07:01): Oh yeah, they are great heroes. Without a doubt. No doubt about it, that took an enormous amount of courage. MD (02:07:08): How about the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in the (19)60s? SM (02:07:15): I am glad it happened. I do not know a whole lot about it. I think it jump started the whole questioning of authority and challenging things. MD (02:07:25): And then of course, the Port Heron Statement, which was the... SM (02:07:28): Right. That is, when I was talking about, yes-yes. If you read that, there is some brilliant stuff in there. That was a brilliant manifesto. MD (02:07:37): And we were talking about the American Indian Movement, and I have not said this to too many people, but when they took over Alcatraz and the Wounded Knee Incident, those were two major events in that (19)69 to (19)73 period. Just your thoughts on that? SM (02:07:54): Well, I think their taking over Alcatraz was a brilliant move. And at the time they did it, it was because they were basically delisting tribes. They were taking away their status, did not exist anymore. And they were able, because of the taking over Alcatraz, got so much attention. And then they did the Longest March, where the American RCC took over the Bureau of Indian Affairs headquarters. And they were able to roll back all of that. And tribes were re-certified. And there was a number of anti-native pieces of legislation that were going on. And all of them got defeated after Alcatraz. The Wounded Knee Incident, I think it was a mistake. I think that when people left the BIA headquarters in DC and went to Wounded Knee, I agree with John Trudel, that it was not a surprise move because it was out in the hinterlands, and the media was not there, and they were not able to control the media, and it was just a disaster waiting to happen. At the same time, it brought massive attention to the inequities on the reservation. But it really did not stop the killings of natives there. That is why they started it. In a way, it was not effective in what it set out to do. MD (02:09:16): When the best history books are written, or the sociology books, or once long after the last Boomer has passed away, what do you think historians and writers will say about this period? Because they did not live it. They study it, but they did not live it. SM (02:09:40): Right. I would say that it will be seen as a shift in consciousness, that it was clearly an attempt to take on a more expanded global consciousness among all cultures on the planet. Planetary consciousness shift. I think they will see it as that. And that well-meaning people really tried to roll back the negative impact of our society. And I guess by definition that means they will have succeeded some, if there is a future with historians. MD (02:10:14): Well, one of the great pictures of this period was the picture of Planet Earth. SM (02:10:20): Yes. MD (02:10:21): From the space capsule. And when college students, say a hundred years from now, when we are all gone, look at that picture as one of the pictures from the (19)60s, and they read all this stuff about coming together, and fighting for people's rights, and the sense of community. And then all they hear about are the divisions, will they look at that picture and say... Because the astronauts said that if you look at Planet Earth, we are all in this together. That the Boomer Generation did not understand that in the end. Do you think people will be that critical? SM (02:11:01): Well, I think that if there is people a hundred years from now and they can look at that picture, that will mean that we did succeed. MD (02:11:05): Very good. Very, very good. Is there any question that I did not ask you that you thought I might ask you? SM (02:11:16): No, you covered a lot pretty well. Yeah. I guess the one question is writers, you talked about the people. MD (02:11:26): Oh, yeah. Well, I did not... Yeah, the writers, but also the books. SM (02:11:32): Yeah. MD (02:11:32): Most influential writers. I got so many questions here. Who are the most influential writers and books that you read when you were young? SM (02:11:41): Oh. MD (02:11:41): And throughout your life? SM (02:11:45): And throughout my life. Yeah. MD (02:11:48): And let me change the side of my- Okay. SM (02:12:01): Well, Ken Kesey was a real instrumental writer, and my influential writer. Rom Dass, influencer writer, we talked about them. MD (02:12:09): What did Rom Dass say that was so important? And what did Kesey say that was important to you? SM (02:12:15): Kesey, in his book, Sometimes a Great Notion, basically, he shows how all these tragedies befall this family because they put their individual family above the common good. And that had a big message to me. His other famous book, Cuckoo's Nest, really took apart the thing of the benign institution, where this may hurt, but it's for your own good. How there's a certain maliciousness in that. And brought that out. And I like that about his books a lot. Rom Dass, in his book Be Here, Now was able to show me the connection between what all various spiritual traditions of the past, the connections between what they were saying and how they actually met the same things here and there. And that really helped. MD (02:13:23): What was the name of that book? SM (02:13:24): Be Here Now. MD (02:13:25): Be Here Now. SM (02:13:26): Yeah. MD (02:13:27): Okay. SM (02:13:29): That had a huge impact on me when I was in college. Other books that I read that mattered. There's the classic, On the Road, by Kerouac. There's various books like that, that mattered. And I like a lot of fiction too, with the Kesey books and various other pieces of fiction. Isaac Asimov's Foundation Trilogy gave me a real political perspective on what's going on. Arthur Clarke, he had Childhood's End. MD (02:14:06): Oh yeah. SM (02:14:07): Another great book that really impacted me. Yeah, things like that. Hunter Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, and Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail. Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail's, one of the best political books I have ever read. MD (02:14:22): Did you ever read Greening of America by Charles Reich? SM (02:14:24): Yes. MD (02:14:25): That was a great book, yeah? SM (02:14:26): That was a really good, that was an excellent book. MD (02:14:28): And then The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. That was another good one. SM (02:14:33): Yes. MD (02:14:34): And I think another one that was very popular was that Love Story by Eric Siegel. SM (02:14:42): I did not like that book. MD (02:14:42): Yeah, he just passed away recently. SM (02:14:44): Yeah. MD (02:14:45): Any other books? Any other writers? Any poets? Any... SM (02:14:49): Oh God, I cannot even off the top of my head. I cannot remember. There is a lot of them. MD (02:14:55): Of all the environmental people that you have been connected to in your life, you already said that Rachel Carson was. SM (02:15:03): Yeah. MD (02:15:05): But who are the environmental people that you just truly admire? SM (02:15:12): Well, David Brower. I cannot say enough about David Brower. MD (02:15:16): And what is his position and title? SM (02:15:18): Well, he was the first Executive Director of the Sierra Club. MD (02:15:22): Okay. SM (02:15:22): He got drummed out of the Sierra Club for being too radical. And then he founded the Friends of the Earth. And then he founded the Earth Island Institute. He was just an uncompromising, amazing character. He was a World War II hero, because he invented all these types of mountain climbing, trained all these troops on how to do it. Climbed most of the western mountains first in the United States. And he died about 10 years ago. He was about 90 when he died. Phenomenal guy. And then I actually had, a guy who is not that well-known home, Homer Roberts, who was the founder of the Michigan Audubon Society, and who was involved in the efforts to save the bald eagle, and the Kirtland's warbler, and so on. And he was the guy that first taught me about ecosystems before I ever even heard of the word. I wonder what is going on with my phone. MD (02:16:21): Ah, yeah, there you go. SM (02:16:23): Anyway. MD (02:16:25): All right. SM (02:16:26): Those are the early environmentalists that really impacted me. MD (02:16:30): Well, that is my last question. I will turn my tape- (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Donnelly Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Donnelly, Michael ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Indigenous peoples--United States; Donnelly, Michael--Interviews Description An account of the resource Michael Donnelly is an environmental activist, author, and one of the founders of Friends of Opal Creek. Donnelly has been writing on environmental issues and stories focused on Native American and indigenous peoples in the northwest. He is a member of the American Indian Movement. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.184a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.184b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 136:34