85 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/777f545d3c4124d217e0435f9adbcca1.mp3 268280458446fae268623115b1aadc3d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-06-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Michael McGoff Year of Graduation 1969 Biographical Text Dr. McGoff is senior vice provost and Chief Financial Officer for Binghamton University. His doctorate was in computer-oriented onomastics, the study of names, which he programmed to study the indigenous languages spoken in New York State. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni from Broome County; Harpur College – Alumni in linguistics; Harpur College - Alumni living in New York City. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni from Broome County; Harpur College – Alumni in linguistics; Harpur College - Alumni living in New York City. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Michael F. McGoff Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 12 June 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Okay-okay. MM: 00:02 My name is Michael McGoff, Senior Vice Provost and Chief Financial Officer for Binghamton University. We are in my office, Administration Building 711 and today is June 12, 2018. IG: 00:15 Okay. Thank you. So, Dr. McGoff, where did you grow up? MM: 00:22 I grew up here in Binghamton. I was- my grandparents came from Ireland to work at Endicott-Johnson Shoes. My- they did and my father was born in the south side of Binghamton. When he got back from World War Two, he became a Binghamton policeman, and married my mother, and they had nine children. I am the eldest. IG: 00:48 That is tremendous. So, was your mother a homemaker? Or did she work? MM: 00:55 She worked in some as a bookkeeper, accountant. It was a finance company, but most of the time, after you have nine kids, you need to be home. IG: 01:06 I would think so. So did your and-and you mentioned that your grandparents are from Ireland. What about your mother's side? Are they Irish? [crosstalk] MM: 01:18 My grandparents were from Ireland. That was my father's side. My- her grandfather was from Ireland, and her grandmother was from Ireland. IG: 01:26 Do you know what part of Ireland? MM: 01:30 My- well on the paternal side, my grandfather was Monahan, and my grandmother was Claire. I believe that the um, my grandfather's side, I would have to look it up. Actually, I think it is an ancestry, but I cannot remember. IG: 01:46 Okay, that is fair enough. So, in your family, was education encouraged? MM: 01:55 It was not discouraged. I was a good student when I was in high school and in an elementary school, my father had nothing past high school, my mother had nothing past high school, and I was encouraged to do what I wanted to do. IG: 02:12 I see. So did the conversations in your house revolve around local events, your family events. Did you talk about? MM: 02:26 Well, my father worked three jobs, so he was not home very much. IG: 02:29 I see. [crosstalk] MM: 02:32 As I was growing up, you know, most of the talk, I think, was about school and about family. There were, you know, current events, I guess so, right, yeah. IG: 02:46 So, what were you a big reader? Did you like certain subjects? MM: 02:53 I always read a lot. I still enjoy reading. When I finished high school--I went to St Mary's Elementary School and was encouraged by the teachers there to study, and I always did well in school. IG: 03:12 Right. MM: 03:13 And then when I went into high school, I went to something called St. Patrick's Academy, which closed in my sophomore year, and I graduated from Catholic Central in 1965 it was, I was among the first graduating classes from what is now Seton Catholic Central High School when I [inaudible] just opened. IG: 03:41 Where did your number in the what-what number child were you? MM: 03:45 I am the oldest. IG: 03:46 You are the youngest. MM: 03:47 Oldest. IG: 03:48 Oldest-oldest. MM: 03:49 And my father died when he was 52 so when any girls got married, I was the patriarch. IG: 03:56 Oh, so who- what did the- your other siblings become? I am, I am watching. MM: 04:06 No, getting a message. Two of my brothers became firemen since retired, one of them is still very big in sports. He was division one referee in basketball. He also is the assigner for still is the assigner for soccer and basketball, and most of central New York for referees. I have a- there is diabetes in my family. I have a brother Jim, who had severe diabetes, type one, and had a rough life with it, and he was disabled, but everybody is still around. My sisters went into the health sciences, worked in the hospitals. IG: 04:57 As what, doctors? MM: 04:59 The technicians, technicians, yeah, and a brother, John, who was longtime fireman, who went back and got his bachelor's and then his master's [inaudible] all the way, and ended up not being able to do what he wanted to do, because if he taught, he would not be able to collect his retirement as a fireman. So, he ends up he is the- whatever the title is, Head of Education for what I know a Spectrum was Time Warner, the others. Let us see, uh, some-some of them had some higher education, and no one finished a degree, except for John. IG: 05:52 So as the head of your family, by default, you-you sort of stepped into your father's shoes. MM: 06:02 For somethings [crosstalk] IG: 06:02 Obviously-obviously. No. Okay, so how did that change your direction? Did you feel more the weight of responsibility on your shoulders? Did that determine certain interests? MM: 06:14 When he died, I was already was not living there anymore. IG: 06:20 I see, I see. MM: 06:22 In fact, by then, when he died, I had already finished my bachelor's, I think, my associates, my bachelor's and my master's, and was working on the doctorate. So, I was living someplace else. I actually had been married, and she and I were both graduate students together. IG: 06:45 Okay, so let me backtrack, then. Did you have a sense of what you wanted to do when you were graduating high school? MM: 06:55 No, in fact, I was surprised. I must have applied, though I do not remember it. I was surprised at the high school graduation that I got a scholarship to go to Broome Tech Community College, where I went for a couple of years and-and at the same time, was here on campus, studying and doing other things here on campus. And then I went out to New Mexico for a short time. IG: 07:23 To New Mexico? MM: 07:25 New Mexico. Yeah. IG: 07:25 Where in New Mexico? MM: 07:27 New Mexico State University in Las Cruces. IG: 07:29 Oh, that is where my daughter lived for a while. MM: 07:31 I was going to go to school there, and I decided that that the education was not as good as New York. So, I came back. IG: 07:39 But it is a beautiful place. MM: 07:40 It is beautiful. As long as they keep the water running all the time, then they can have grass. IG: 07:45 So, when were you there? What are the years that you were there? MM: 07:48 I was not there for a whole year. I was there for weeks. Let us see when was it? It was 1967, summer and fall of (19)67. IG: 08:04 So, you know, let us backtrack. So, did you have a you know, why did you decide on Harpur College? MM: 08:19 I was in New Mexico. I had already been- I was with the woman that I ended up marrying a few years later. We both decided that New Mexico State was not the right place for us. We had both been admitted to Harpur. We both drove back to New York day and night until we got here to start classes in August, late August, early September, somewhere around there. Yeah, that is when I forgot my first job and on campuses. IG: 08:51 So-so, wait and you got your first job. So, you were working while you were a student. What-what? MM: 08:59 I was self-supporting. IG: 09:00 You were self-supporting. You were self-supporting. That is not surprising. Coming from a family that- MM: 09:08 Yeah, they did not have the resources help, although I had scholarships, and I just- IG: 09:13 You had a regent scholarship, MM: 09:15 A what? IG: 09:15 A Regents scholarship? MM: 09:17 Yes, I had a, I do not remember exactly what the title of the thing was. Tell you the truth, it was a scholarship that I got in high school. But I do not, not sure they called it Regent scholarship, whatever. Yeah, but I needed to work or I would not have lived. IG: 09:38 So, you had this idea that Harpur College and New York education was superior. Did you have an idea? Did you have a direction? Did you know what you wanted to pursue? MM: 09:48 Well, to tell you the truth, as I said, I grew up in Binghamton, and at that time, most people in the area did not hold the college in very high regard. In fact, my father was a Binghamton policeman, and right around that time, Herbert Aptheker had been here. And so, there were a lot of people that just thought this was a communist place. A lot of communists, long haired hippie. I do not think they said hippie at the time, but long haired, sandal wearing communist, but I knew that had a good education, and I knew that I wanted to come back to it. IG: 10:29 No, did you, did you? I am just wondering you know how you mentioned that you went to Catholic High School, that your siblings went to Catholic high schools. MM: 10:42 Actually, they did not. IG: 10:43 They did not. MM: 10:44 No. IG: 10:45 They did not. MM: 10:45 Because at that time, my brother Kevin did, but with my brother Jim and my father being sick and then dying, there was not enough money to pay those tuitions, so they all started going to public school, and all of them graduated from public high school. IG: 11:07 Do you think that your family was particularly Irish? Was there a sense of Irish culture in your family? IG: 11:14 Yes. IG: 11:15 How was that expressed? I was I was getting around that through Catholic- MM: 11:19 My-my-my grand my paternal grandfather and paternal grandmother were still alive. My father was very close to them. They had very thick brogues, which a lot of people would probably not understand now. We just spent a lot of time there. There were also like cousins that visited from Ireland and so on. Cousins of my father. So, you know, it was clearly Irish. And my grandmother, on my mother's side, was very proud of having been Irish. Her father came from Ireland, and he was he drowned. He drowned in trying to get them dinner by shooting a duck in a river. And so, she had to quit high school about 14 or so, something like that, in order to help the family. But I do not know how she got so smart, but she helped me learn algebra when I was in high school, even though I do not think she ever, I do not know what she finished, eighth grade, seventh grade, I do not know, but all of them were very Irish, yes. IG: 12:32 So also, you know, what was the sense in your family that you know you said everybody was proud of being Irish? What were they? Were they proud of the of the rich culture of the or their personal sort of stories of survival, of surviving through struggles? What do you think it was? MM: 12:53 Just a, the love of the heritage, I guess. My I have to admit. I mean, I do not think of myself as Irish very often. But when my wife and I did ancestry, and I found out I was 99.4 percent or 93 percent something like that, Irish, I was proud of it. IG: 13:17 Right. MM: 13:18 Yeah. IG: 13:19 Have you ever heard that the Irish and the Slavic nations were one? There is one theory that they were once one. They came from the same family tree. MM: 13:35 I never heard that now. IG: 13:39 Yeah, MM: 13:39 It is interesting. IG: 13:39 It is interesting. It is very interesting. MM: 13:39 My wife, my present wife-- have been married 39 years her-her grandparents and family members came from Russia, Ukraine, whatever it was at the particular time to work at Endicott Johnson, so I have got this whole kind of, we were married in a Russian Orthodox Church. So, I have got this whole- IG: 13:57 Oh, which, which one? MM: 13:58 It was called our mission of the Blessed Virgin that is over on- IG: 14:02 That is where [crosstalk] that is where I go. MM: 14:04 Okay. IG: 14:05 So that is very interesting. It is a very interesting connection. So, I was just trying to get a sense of your background and sort of you know what the ethos of this family was, and- MM: 14:19 It was very close family. I do not know that we thought about being Irish and all that as much as we thought about taking care of each other. It is interesting. People would never [inaudible] a big family. I would come home and, you know, 11 people were living there, and yet, within a few minutes, you would say, “Where is John?” It was just like; it was like a hive or something. [laughs] IG: 14:42 Right-right. I can imagine. And so-so, you were in school. You were at Harpur College, after, you know your- MM: 14:55 Came back from Mexico. IG: 14:56 From New Mexico, and what did you know, and you had this, obviously, you had heard that, you know, Harpur College was full of communists and hippies. What was your first impression of the school? I mean- MM: 15:14 My first impressions of the school was a lot of hard work, but it was lot of folks from downstate, which was different for me and proud to be here. And the- I said a lot of hard work, it was a lot of hard work. And also, I was working full time, but it was just filled with all this stuff to learn. I mean, I took a lot of different courses. I studied a lot of different things. I love language. So, I was involved with early on, with folks in the English department, mostly, but I ended up in my later, in my undergraduate and then in my graduate work, studying languages. So- IG: 16:05 Which languages did you study? MM: 16:07 Old High German, Old English, Middle English. Did some Frisian I studied some- IG: 16:15 How interesting. MM: 16:16 [inaudible] and some Algonquin. I did some my dissertation was in languages, or actually it is in an area called onomastics, which is I used I was, I was working in the School of Advanced Technology. So, I had a background in computing, and so I was able to marry computing and onomastics, which is the study of how my study was how names through bilingual interaction, names pass from one language to another, typically becoming meaningless, but also being able to carry that language into a different language, able to study the first language. My-my teacher was a guy named Bill Helm, or Bill Nicolaisen [W. F. H. (Bill) Nicolaisen], who ended up just dying here about a year ago, a year and a half ago in Aberdeen, that he taught here for many years. He came from Ohio State, and we studied together for years. I studied with him. IG: 17:20 What-what you know, what predisposed you? I mean, this is serious linguistics at an undergraduate level, which is quite unusual. MM: 17:30 Yeah, there were no linguistics programs, so, yeah, work with individuals, as I said, Old High German, Old Norse, with some faculty members who were here. IG: 17:40 Do you remember their names? MM: 17:42 Bill Snyder. I worked with him on some Sanskrit and some Old High German and-and Old Norse. I did [crosstalk] IG: 17:53 That is phenomenal. That is really phenomenal. I really [crosstalk] no, no, that is okay, that is, that is, but this is at the undergraduate level. MM: 18:03 We started that stuff at the undergraduate most of the work was at the graduate level. Yep. IG: 18:11 Most of the work- MM: 18:11 At the graduate I mean, I was just getting the background in order- IG: 18:11 So, at the undergraduate level, were you studying old German and Frisian and or did you were you exposed to that in graduate school? MM: 18:21 In undergraduate I mostly like, I work with Bill Snyder in German, and we did some, some work and older versions of German I did, let us see what I do Middle English with, with I um, with faculty here. And then I got introduced to Bill Nicolaisen, and I started working with him on some things. And the old Norse was in my first year of graduate school. IG: 18:55 That is fantastic. MM: 18:56 So, I was here all the time. IG: 18:59 So, Binghamton, but that is, that is tremendous. So, Binghamton actually had a strong linguistic presence. Were these- MM: 19:09 It was-there were no programs in it, and so to say strong. We had strong faculty members. It had backgrounds, but it- IG: 19:17 So, they were teaching these subjects out of their language programs, right out of the German program or English programs. MM: 19:25 English program, yeah [inaudible] Barney Huppe [Bernard Huppe] is the first one to introduce me to older languages, Middle English. We did Chaucer and some other things. Bernard F Huppe, he was one of the leading lights of the early faculty members here. IG: 19:42 What is really interesting is that you were kind of ahead of the curve in that you combined your interest in onomastics with computer you know, generated what- to study. MM: 20:01 Yes, when I first started working here in my first job in 1967 August in 1967 was in the school, the brand-new school of advanced technology, which the current incarnation is the Watson School. And so, I worked for a man named Walter Lohan, who was the first dean, and at the same time was working. We hired a- was a little while later, but we hired a guy named John McHale, who was colleague of Buckminster Fuller, and John was a sociologist who was a futurist. So, when I worked with him for quite a while, I think they called me a research associate, but I read for him, and he had a need to, you know, constantly be reading things. So, we, there were some of us who read things in order to, you know, get rid of the chaff and give him the pearls through the- we at the end of the day, he would have a whole bunch of things to take home that I had sort of filtered out for him so they get so they did not have to read things that were just worthless. I read a lot of things for him. Same time, I worked for Walter Lohan, who was, who was the Dean of the School of Advanced Technology, and eventually, at the end of the life of the school advanced technology, I was acting dean for a couple years. IG: 21:36 It is very interesting. You know, there is so much that I want to ask about. MM: 21:43 I am jumping all over the place. IG: 21:44 No-no. And, you know, it is a personal interest of mine, because I, too, studied linguistics many years ago. So, for example, what was and you got your doctorate in linguistics, what- MM: 21:56 The doctorate is actually mean, this was, what was what was the title, computer-oriented onomastics survey. It was sort of independent study, kind of thing that I had, I did with Bill Nicolaisen. And then, in fact, I am still involved in, I am still on the editorial board of onomastics journal. And um- IG: 22:17 So, what were your some of your findings in your thesis, you know, if you could summarize this in in a nutshell. What-what did your research find? MM: 22:28 Well, that is about 300 and some pages, but I have not looked at in a long time, but it is. What I did was a study of the place names of New York State and the Aboriginal languages and some of the New World, world languages that came here, and was able to trace some things back, how the names came to be, what the language was about, and so on. But I was able to do it on many, many, many, I do not know how many 1000s of names, physical features and so on, and use the computer to be able to analyze it. And nobody at the time was using computing. So, it was a hot topic. And I went around a lot and talked with folks about it, introduced some people to it. And in fact, Peter Raper, who is in South Africa, he does South African onomastics. He was I- he came here and I introduced him to computing, and he is still using-using it. IG: 23:35 So let me understand. So, you had, you know this corpus of words from names from various Aboriginal languages. MM: 23:44 Not only all the names, yes, but- IG: 23:48 Not only the names, but the languages themselves. MM: 23:51 That I was interested in the languages, we use the names to get to the languages. IG: 23:54 To get to the to the languages. So, you reconstructed the language through the names, or? MM: 23:59 In some cases, you know, I do not know, pick on something Susquehanna, the Susquehanna River. IG: 24:04 Yeah, right. MM: 24:07 The, it does not matter to me. It did not matter what the what it etymologically meant. I was interested in, like, hannah is pleonastically repeats river right. Hannah is river that kind of thing was what I was interested in. You are taking me back a long way. IG: 24:27 No-no, but I hope you do not mind. So, this is, you know, we can- MM: 24:33 So, you can study the languages and reconstruct things about the languages by using what was brought into our everyday language and changed over time. See, you know, you can trace the changes and things like that. People do not know what they are saying when they say Susquehanna. What it means or where it came from, anything else. But you can, that is what I was interested in. IG: 24:57 Right. And you were. You know, did you find, did you find evidence of-of, you know, a people's history, of their migrations, of their contact with other, other tribal cultures? MM: 25:18 And you can trace, like you know, you can trace where dialects of the Iroquoian language, for instance, where they were based on the names that are still the areas where those dialects [inaudible] IG: 25:33 Did you present your papers and at linguistic conferences? MM: 25:38 Um, onomastics conference, yes uh huh. I [inaudible] international at the time, was called International Congress of Onomastics Sciences, big one in Ann Arbor one year. Just about every major city and the country where there were conferences would be middle- we were mostly associated with MLA in the early years, and then the conferences that I went to, and then in the later years, within the last 25, 20 years, we moved to LSA, Linguistic Society of America, and so that we meet now in January--used to meet during the Christmas break, but that is when MLA met and spoke at MLA, various places like that. IG: 26:28 Did you- are you acquainted with the work of Chomsky [Noam Chomsky]? Did that influence you do anything MM: 26:34 [crosstalk] here, and I heard him speak, probably in the (19)60s. IG: 26:38 Tell us about that. That is wonderful. MM: 26:42 He gave a lecture, and I believe was Cassata Sioux. I had to be in the late (19)60s sometime in there. Do not remember much of what he spoke about probably was more social than it was linguistics. But- IG: 26:56 Even then? MM: 26:56 Yeah, right, oh yeah. He is- had on things then, yeah. A lot of people came and spoke-spoke in Binghamton over the years. Then I tried to go as many as I could. One that comes to mind is Christopher Hitchens. And lots of, lots of big names came. IG: 27:15 In the (19)60s? MM: 27:16 (19)67. Yeah, it was, it was a different- the university was a different place than during those years. It was mostly known for the humanities; the sciences were there. And of course, you know when, but in the like, for instance, that we went through a horrible time in (19)76, 1976, (19)75, (19)76 when New York State was financially going south, because New York City was-was having difficulty, and we had huge cuts here one and would not remember what it was--must been the fall of 75 we hired six assistant professors in our school, and in May of (19)76 we laid them off. That was that kind of bad times. And so, it was big on humanities. But my point was going to be that during those bad times, the sciences and the nation engineering school and things like that, they were the ones taking the hits. We had a PhD in physics, which we got rid of at that time. Now that would not happen, but that is what happened then, because Harpur was well known for the humanities and some social sciences, but most humanities are big, very I mean, it was the most famous English department in the country, I think in public schools. IG: 28:49 It had a great reputation from it had the reputation of being an elite, the equivalent of an elite private college. That is what I hear from almost all the alumni I speak to. MM: 29:04 Yeah, they call it the public Brown or something like- IG: 29:07 Something like that. It was based on the University of Chicago system, was not it? MM: 29:14 Partially also the collegiate was based on the collegiate colleges were based supposedly on Oxford, but there were, there were a lot of people who thought a lot about education in those years, just and higher education and how students learn and that kind of thing, much more discipline oriented now. IG: 29:38 Did you-you know, I imagine that you were, in part, influenced by your family's perspective on the college you know, the academic community here and the students. Did this perception change over the years? I mean, how did you regard these hippies and communists? MM: 30:05 Well, I never thought of them that way. I was quoting the local people. Was interesting, because the woman I told you about became my first wife. Her- when we started, we went out to New Mexico. We had gone to school together at Broome. We came back here. We were students here, but her father was a violin maker and played viola in the orchestras. Her mother was a pianist and taught music. She was a dancer herself and a violinist and so but all of her parent’s friends, many of her parent’s friends, were also university faculty, like Ken Lindsay and Christine Lindsay were Ken started the art programs here. We would spend a lot of time with them, either up at the cottage, or they would be coming over Harry Lincoln, who was the beginning of the music programs here, they would be there too. So, I would he even when I was not on campus, I was involved with people from on campus. So, I thought of that. I just came to think of it as a family. And I will have been here 51 years in August, and- IG: 31:18 That is tremendous. MM: 31:21 [inaudible] it is. It was. They were different times, but they were still did not seem to be. It was a much more close knit. I think when I stepped on campus first time at (19)65 there were like 22- 2200, 2300, 2300 people here. Now there is 17,300 students, let alone a couple 1000, more than a couple 1000 people that work here. IG: 31:50 And you never considered leaving when you, for example, earned your PhD. Did you seek employment elsewhere? MM: 31:58 Well, when I finished my doctorate. I was, let us see, (19)79 I was an assistant dean already. So, I became an assistant dean in (19)76 during all the issues, all the problems and people were being laid off, and I took on new responsibilities. And so, by the time I got the doctorate, I was married second time, and have been married now to my wife, Donna Pylypciw, who for 39 years it will be so, I guess I have forgotten the question. But no, I this was, I mean, I had, I had possibilities of jobs in other places. In fact, went out to Michigan to interview for a job out there. But just this was home. IG: 32:53 Yeah, I see. MM: 32:54 I think even though job was home. IG: 33:00 How did you get involved in the financial aspect of administration? MM: 33:11 Well, as I said back in the (19)70s, when I stepped into administration from some of the various other jobs I had had. You had to know something about financials. I had lived through the Rockefeller years, when there was plenty of money up here on campus, but I became assistant dean and then associate dean, and so the fight I was, at one-point, Associate Dean for Administration and academic affairs. I think it was the other way around Academic Affairs and Administration. And so, all the financials were reporting to me budgets and that kind of thing. So, I got into it. And when I became acting dean of the School of Advanced Technology, again, you know, I had to oversee, but at the time, was probably like a five or $6 million budget, something like that became much larger over time. And now, when I the provost at the time, when I was Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and Administration in the Watson school from (19)83 we started the school in (19)83 so for like 15, 14, 15, 16, years, I was in the Watson school. And then in 1999 the provost at the time, Marianne Swain, asked me to come over and be vice provost. I think we were called Associate Provost at the time. And I took on the academic all the academic budgets, and then in 2014 Harvey Stinger decided, when a good friend of mine and colleague, Vice President for Administration, Jim Voorst VORs [James Van Voorst] left, Harvey decided that he was going to put the financials underneath Academic Affairs. So now all of the all the financial side, reports to me. So, you know, I would have some courses and those kinds of things, but I just learned it by working it, I guess. And now I have CPAs who report to me, and they can worry about the details. [laughs] IG: 35:21 That is a perfect situation. I am just thinking how unusual your background is. I mean, I have known people who have wedded the technologist background with a humanist. I know some people you know. I know some people who have made a career of that. But do you see any future for this direction in engineering, for example, is the Watson school doing anything that you sort of naturally fell into? MM: 35:56 Well, of course, when I was in the Watson school, I was an administrator. But because I take things on and because I maybe I do things well, I do not know, for a couple of years, I was the chairman of computer science and Associate Dean, because I had had background in computing when I came here in the (19)60s. I, you know, I learned some programming languages in that time. It was over key punch cards, and I helped create a program called foundations in computer science--actually before computer science existed. It was foundations computer systems. And we took people from various backgrounds, everything, art, music, English, whatever, and put them through a series of six courses to prepare them for a master's to study in a master's degree in computer systems. It was called the foundation of computer science. We created video tapes. This is like 1969 right in there, and taught an awful lot of folks, especially folks in IBM and General Electric, Sarah Link, enough background in logic and Boolean algebra, set theory, numerical analysis, that kind of thing, and some programming languages to be able to step in and start learning computing. So that I was, since I was involved in that, and I have got involved in it, I became knowledgeable, and so I did all those things too. IG: 37:19 Do you think that the (19)60s, in any way encouraged this exploration of different disciplines? And you know, was there a greater experiment, experimentation and searching from one-one area of I mean, I am just thinking about this computational linguistics. I think that it was very innovative. Do you think that it is a product of the time, or just that technology was headed in that direction, and this was exploited by other disciplines? MM: 38:05 Not sure I can understand or I can answer that question, but I do not know that it was as much the (19)60s as was this place. This place was wedded to people exploring it was big. We still say these things. We do less of it, but in the (19)60s and (19)70s and even into the (19)80s, people were encouraged to explore. When you came into Harpur College, you were, you know, they tried not to lock into things. There were fights. In fact, when people tried to make it easier for registration by picking courses for people and having locked in courses, it was just unheard of. So, I mean, I took many-many courses undergraduate that I, you know, from anti just was lots of there was, it was a big plate, and you could eat whatever you wanted. It was the best part. And things like computer science was not entirely defined at the time. That was so that people from various areas could get into it. It was, there was something called the ACM association for computer machinery. ACM 68 was a curriculum. That was when people first started defining what computer science was. So, it was open to everybody. I mean, as I say, the it was the School of Advanced Technology at the time was designed in order to take advantage of this exploration that people in Harpur [crosstalk]. IG: 39:33 Right. Do you think that this exploration exists at the present time? Is it still sort of, you know, is there still a, you know, a partnership, a collaboration between the arts, the humanities and technologies? I mean, I know that it exists in in the library field with Digital Scholarship. But do you think that there is this kind of- MM: 40:04 I think it is- IG: 40:05 -bridging of different [crosstalk] MM: 40:07 I think the possibility is still there, but it is it. You know, I do not want to sound like some old fogy, but I think it is it is different now in that there are so many forces working against students being able to explore. If you look at the Excelsior program or TAP, people are encouraged just to figure out where they want to head, and they are locked into a set of courses. If they do not follow those courses, they are going to lose TAP, or they are going to lose the Excelsior, or they are going to lose whatever it is. So, you cannot do a lot of exploration when you are being trying to focus like that, because politicians, geez, I lose my job. Politicians have set it out so that it is no longer the responsibility of the state to help create the future of the state, as much as it is the personal responsibility. When I first came here, the tuition, the cost of education, was born by the state and by the student. At that time, it was in the 20 to 30 percent range that the student paid, and the 70 or 80 percent in the 70 percent range that the state paid. It is now exactly reversed so these same politicians have put in place, in my opinion, I think they are abdicating their responsibility for the future of the state. But anyway, they put this in place where now students create these great, enormous financial burdens, which now the politicians complain about by saying that, you know, the colleges are burdening these people with all this cost and they have got to pay for loans into their waning years. The fact of the matter is that there are so many more constraints on people now I did not have the constraints that some of these students have. Now they got to take that lab course. They do not have to want to take that lab course. They got to take. So again, sound like an old fogy. Things have changed, no, and it is, it is back then it was a lot less discipline oriented for the faculty and for the students, and a lot more of this exploration I talked about. You can learn different things, but right now, you will find students that have to take these courses or they are not going to get in pre-med. IG: 42:26 And essentially, it is because of financial constraints. MM: 42:29 That is one of the big ones. IG: 42:31 That is one of the big ones. MM: 42:31 Yeah, and also that higher education has changed. People are much more discipline oriented. When I first came here, people were wed to the college. Faculty were wed to the college. They, you know, they would come out to things. There was a faculty review. There were things like that. Now a lot of faculty, of course, it is bigger, but a lot of faculty do not know each other. You have to encourage connections so that people can do some interdisciplinary work, whereas then it was, you know, the people from various areas hung out. The physicists were there when there was a concert. Now you find you do not even mind some music faculty when there is a concert. IG: 43:20 So, what is, you know, what-what is, what is the how? What is the solution? How did you reproduce, you know, very scientifically oriented students to the liberal arts and import and educate them in the importance of having a rounded education? MM: 43:45 Well, I do not want to sound like an old toot here, but as I say, a lot of things are working against it. And instead of that, and again, I am sure it is different for some people, I am just seeing what I observe generally. And that is that you hear students say, instead of having this exploration I talked about, now we have Gen Ed courses. You got to take a general education course. You got to take it. You hear students saying, well, as soon as I get rid of my gen eds. IG: 44:15 Right-right-right. MM: 44:17 You do not want to get rid of your gen ed. That is interesting stuff. So, it is just the world has changed. I cannot say it is better or worse than, you know, I am sure. I am reminded of one of the first Deans I worked with, Leo Faisal said, you know, students are not as good as they used to be, and they never were. [laughs] There is always people looking back at a golden age, right? IG: 44:44 Well, you know, maybe, maybe there is truth to that, because I have really been meeting with extremely accomplished people from who are (19060s alumni. So, there is probably something to that and-and they all attribute their success to the education that they received at Harpur College and the breadth of courses that they were allowed to take that had nothing to do with their major. So, you know, I just, just give us, you know, maybe, an overview of the significant events that you recall in your life as an undergraduate or even as a graduate, and how the student community, and you yourself responded to them. For example, you know the death of JFK, or, you know, some something that really stuck in your memory, and what the campus was like on that day, or days, or? MM: 46:00 Okay, I remember something my early years here, the Vietnam War was a big thing. Most men and women were affected by it. Men because they were going to be sent there. I had friends who were sent to Vietnam and were killed. People were constantly worried about whether or not they are going to be drafted or whatever. Bruce Deering was president. I came in just as Glen Bartle was had stepped down and Bruce Deering was inaugurated. I think in (19)67 or (19)68 something like that, (19)60 somewhere in there, and we did not have the Binghamton campus Harpur did not have the kind of intensity and the demonstrations and the anger that went on at many campuses, And I attribute part of that to Bruce Deering, President, went out and he demonstrated with the students. We went down, and we did a march down to Binghamton, and we were all on the city hall, you know, listening to speeches and so on. And he had gone with the students. And so, it was not like, you know, there was something here on campus and administration to say, you know, they were the establishment. He was a major force in keeping this a common campus, even though students were very upset with people were being drafted and going and not coming back. Those were intense years. It was a lot of building going on at the time, so things were constantly changing. What your hose built. This building was built not too long before it came that kind of thing in the (19)70s, the early (19)70s, the big thing was the state being in financial trouble, and so we lost a lot of lost a lot of people at that time. And it was and trust. There was a lot of trust lost because basically people started pointing fingers at each other and saying, you know, they were not my words, but the thought was, they were not as important to this university or this college as these people are, and you ought to, and they did. They-they cut [inaudible] at the time, and I remember some of the painful things about that. There was a lot of change through the years. I mean, I am not doing well at remembering kind of things are going on, but I do have you know, the emotions were quite high most of the most of those years, the early years. IG: 48:56 Did you feel solidarity in as a student with the other students- MM: 49:00 And the faculty, IG: 49:02 And the faculty. MM: 49:03 We had teachings, for instance. And I still remember Ed Wilson, who was a sculptor, who was in the art department, a black man. I do not remember where it was, but I remember being in a room with a bunch of students and Binghamton, there were not a lot of black people. And so just talking about the world from his perspective, was mind opening for me, and that had also to do with the Vietnam War. But a black man in the Vietnam War era, there were just, I mean, when something happened, the faculty were involved. When there was a teach in, all the faculty were here, doing, helping with the teaching. They did not just stay home. IG: 49:49 That is quite wonderful. MM: 49:58 Yeah. I learned a lot from a lot of folks. Stuart Gordon, who was a good friend of this Walter Leon and I talked about, and he was, he never was. He might have been acting president. I think he was chief officer in charge, or something like that, for a while, but he was dean of Harpur. One it was just Harpur. He took over after Bartle stop being dean of Harpur and became a president. And then Stu Gordon became vice president for academic affairs and so on, but he taught people a lot about how to work together. I remember a lot like, for instance, you would at that time, no, of course, no email. You would be preparing memos to each other, and the Secretary would type those memos. And sometimes it takes a whole day to get a memo out, because you were trying to just get it right, and so on. We typed on a letterhead, and sometimes Stu Gordon would send back those memos corrected it was read and saying, nobody was going to work here unless they, you know, think about things this way and express themselves well. And you had to be a good writer. So it was, it was even part of, I mean, that, thankfully, it never happened to me. But I had a colleague who got one back that was, you know, who had somehow complained about something, and the memo that came back was, never shake your hoary locks at me. IG: 51:26 I wish he were editing over our president's shoulder dispatches, all these misspelled tweets. So, you know, you know, let us see, I am looking at the time, and I am thinking that, you know, if what were some of the most I mean, you have, you have given us a lot of examples, but what do you think were some of the most important lessons that you learned as an undergraduate at Harpur, about studying, about life, about- MM: 52:10 Well, I had to learn it. First of all, high school, elementary school all that came relatively easy to me. I was a good student, but when I got here, and even Broome was I was excellent student, but he did not have to work as hard as you had to work here, not at the expectations were not as hard high as they were when I came here, unlike probably most of the people you were talking about or have talked to, I was a local and a transfer student, and both of those things were not held in high regard, in fact, by a lot of faculty, transfer students are still not held in high regard. And so, I had to prove myself, but I also had to work very-very hard, because so much was expected of you. And so, I remember my father, who, as I said, never finished or finished high school, but never went to college. He-he one time said, because it was just a different life than he had ever experienced. He said, you cannot really be studying all that time. What are you really doing? No, you had to study. It took hours and hours and hours. It was a full-time job. And unlike, and I should not be saying this, but because I do not want SUNY to hear this, unlike now for many faculty, for credit courses were really for credit courses. They were designed to be more than the three credit courses at other colleges, this whole public Brown and all that kind of thing. They really meant it. There was you earned that extra credit outside of class and inside of class, and it was really four credit hour courses. Now you will bump into faculty will tell you not, the same course I taught when I was at so once, it was a three-credit course. There is four credit here. What is the difference? It was- they were, they were. Expectations were much higher of the students at the time. It was a lot of work. IG: 54:14 So, yeah, I-I see that. I But what were, what were some of the takeaways from that experience of really working very hard and- MM: 54:33 Well, I do not know takeaways or some. I mean, I do not think I learned it there, but it became important there the pride in what you do. You do not do anything is half assed. When you write a memo, somebody might be correcting it, right? You do it because you were trying to do your best. This is not just me. This was a lot of these students; I have friends now that were here back in the (19)60s. You know they. We still talk about people and things that happened then, and it was a lot was expected of you, and I felt I am proud to graduate from Harpur. IG: 55:16 Students are going to be listening to this recording. And I always ask as we are nearing the end of our interview, if you have any advice for them as they embark on their careers. I mean, you have had such a varied and robust and interesting career. You know, from linguistics to computational linguistics to engineering to finance, what is there anything that you can draw from that that would put these students in good stead for their future? MM: 56:01 I do not know that I am that wise, but I can tell you that, first of all, I should say these students are not the students who are here are not any less smart or less hard working than the students when I was here in the (19)60s. Matter of fact, we had a speaker at the commencement here a couple weeks ago said, you know, your students are far better than we were when I was here. And it is true, these are excellent students. But if I had to encourage anybody, I would encourage them to, you know, do some things you care about because you care about them, and not just because somebody tells you-you cannot be a physician without having done them. Do those things if you have to too. But you know, when you are I do not the Anderson center reports to me. It is the Performing Arts Center, and I go to all the concerts. And oftentimes there will not be anybody there whose hair is not my color which is white there-there are no young people going to classical concerts. You have an orchestra and the place will be half full. That would never have happened in the (19)60s. People are not exploring the way we explored. And I or they do not appear to be, and I would just encourage people to-to open up their lives to other possibilities, other thoughts. Remember that you are going to have to live a whole life, and it cannot just be because you are good at writing code. You got to, you got to enjoy your life to learn other things. That is what I was encouraged to do. IG: 57:37 That is very good advice. Any concluding remarks? MM: 57:44 No, I just hope this gets buried for about 10 years and then I do not have to worry about it. IG: 57:51 [laughter] MM: 57:51 Probably [inaudible] IG: 57:52 Thank you very much. MM: 57:53 Okay. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael F. McGoff Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni from Broome County; Harpur College – Alumni in linguistics; Harpur College - Alumni living in New York City. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGoff, Michael ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. McGoff is senior vice provost and Chief Financial Officer for Binghamton University. His doctorate was in computer-oriented onomastics, the study of names, which he programmed to study the indigenous languages spoken in New York State. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Michael McGoff.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-06-12 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Universal Viewer / Rosetta Rosetta audio media Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gruss, Michael Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Caganek, Anna Date of Interview 1978-01-05 Subject LCSH Gruss, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.); Pennsylvania; Coal mines and mining; Endicott Johnson Corporation--Employees--Interviews; Cigar industry; Polish language; Russian language; Slovak language; Ukrainian language Binghamton Clothing Company; Dr. Mary Ross Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:20 Minutes ; 14:01 Minutes Collection Broome County Oral History Project Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56071">Interview with Michael Gruss</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Gruss Subject The topic of the resource Gruss, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.); Pennsylvania; Coal mines and mining; Endicott Johnson Corporation--Employees--Interviews; Cigar industry; Polish language; Russian language; Slovak language; Ukrainian language Description An account of the resource Michael Gruss speaks of his youth in Pennsylvania and working in the coal mines there. He was a licensed black powder blaster and he describes what this entails. He moved to Johnson City in 1913 to work for the Endicott Johnson Corporation and acted as an unofficial labor mediator for the company. He reflects briefly on witnessing the overall factory [Binghamton Clothing Company] fire and trying to help the factory workers. He describes the cigar industry in Binghamton's First Ward and the workers' attempt to unionize. He worked with Dr. Mary Ross as her driver and assisted her on home visits. He was competent in Polish, Russian, Slovak and Ukrainian languages. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fa Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 67 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f96dd7fa17305c122d51c5736a4f517c.mp3 6c435750b2c14a4c6c6584b33ff00adb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gruss, Michael Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Caganek, Anna Date of Interview 1978-01-30 Subject LCSH Gruss, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.) Willis Sharpe Kilmer; Swamp Root Medicine Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 12:35 Minutes Collection Broome County Oral History Project Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56071">Interview with Michael Gruss</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Michael Gruss Interviewed by: Anna Caganek, Dan O'Neil, Joe Newcomb, Nettie Politylo Date of interview: 30 January 1978 Dan: Okay. Uh, when will this be, uh…? Joe: Oh, it’ll be, uh…it’ll be a little while. We’ll let you all know when it’s gonna be out; it’ll probably be a couple’a weeks. Dan: Couple’a weeks? Joe: Couple weeks we get to…permission. That, We’ll have a couple more to talk with, eh…some other people [unintelligible] Michael: And then you’re all through with that. Joe: Yeah, we’re all done for now. Michael: Yeah. Joe: Yeah. Dan: [chuckles] Nettie: That was really interesting, Mr. Gruss. Michael: Now, I thought maybe you’d want a picture there taken of that shrine in the back. Joe: Uh, what’s that? Michael: Huh? Joe: Shrine? Michael: You go toe - go through the- Dan: Y-y-you can show - yeah. You can show him the, the, the shrine; it’s right through the back door there. Michael: Wait, you go right, straight through - you look through that window there. Nettie: Through that window. [Cut to a bit later] Michael: In the town, Vixen. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: And that [unintelligible] was desperately, you know, against anything like that. Because yeah, he was one… [Background noise interruption] Dan: Huh, huh, go ahead. Yeah, it’s on now. Yeah. Yeah… Joe: Yeah, we’ll be going back to the, uh… Annie: Thank you very much. Joe: Back to the office. Annie: I appreciated hearing this story so - Endicott Johnson, especially. History. Michael: How did you like that in the back? That shrine? Annie: That’s part of your handiwork, huh? Joe: That’s very nice. Very nice. Annie: It’s a powerful tree. Michael: You know, I thought maybe if one wanted a picture of that sometime, they could go down and take ‘em. Joe: Yeah, okay. We- [Unintelligible mix of voices] Dan: Have you, eh…have you got any more of these here I could give to Joe? One to Joe? Joe: What’s that? Dan: This is a, this is a pin of the s-Johnson City Arch. Joe: Oh, yeah. Yeah, you got any of those? Nettie: We all got pins, but we all got one, yes. Dan: Yeah. Joe: Oh, did you? Good. Nettie: So you have to have one, too. Michael: There’s you. Dan: That would be for a man. Nettie: For a man, you gotta have the rum. Michael: And, and you just got the one head over, the other head [unintelligible]- Nettie: The rum, Mr. Gruss. Michael: You have to have one of those. [clears throat] Dan: Nah, that’s just- Nettie: This one here. [Unintelligible mix of voices] Michael: No, the, the other [unintelligible]. Mm-hm. Nettie: Oh, yeah. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Yeah. Michael: You got one? Nettie: Yeah, I have a small one. Yeah, I have a small one. Michael: That’s all I get out of 22 pounds. Dan: Yeah [laughing]. Michael: No, I see it. Eh, eh, I’d have to get it for, for every room. Well, anyway…they cost - you see that…it cost, er, the shoes and [unintelligible]- Joe: We don’t know if they can touch. Dan: Brass, isn’t it? Michael: Huh? Dan: Brass, isn’t it? Michael: No. Dan: Brass, probably. Michael: No, it was bronze. Dan: Bronze? Joe: Oh, yeah. Dan: I imagine you could take- [Unintelligible mix of voices] Michael: And I have to get from every room - for all the ages - how many male, how many female. Go to each room, and I put it in an envelope, and put mark that down there, and that’s - put on my suggestion: 10 cents a piece. Dan: Yeah. Michael: And that, that’s what it cost, ebeh, when I, eh, had to mail. Dan: Yeah. Michael: And that’s, everybody got ‘em because everybody was 100 back then for, eh, you know…E. J. Well, you know what they did years ago. My job was, eh - during the wintertime, they - every week there’d be two cargos of oranges or fruit. And, and we had four rows in, eh, Florida, you know. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: E. J.’s. Dan: Yeah. Michael: Yeah, so we, eh…I was down there. Well, Patterson. He used to be the market master. And, eh, they sent two cargos here: One for Endicott, one for Binghamton. Joe: Right. Michael: So they sold the tops. Joe: Right. Michael: 50 cents a pack for your oranges. Three if it was all, all right there on the tree. Because if it was on every car, there had to be two men. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: See, when your left floor - they’re in Florida, when they loaded, they had to put ice in there. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: But, when you got to the cold country, you had to dump the ice. And, uh, light these kerosene lamps to decide - so they wouldn’t freeze. Joe: Do you remember anything about the Kilmer, eh…Swamp Root factory? Michael: The what? Dan: Kilmer Swamp Root? Do you remember anything about the Kilmer Swamp Root? Michael: Oh, yeah. Willis Sharpe Kilmer? Dan: Yeah. Michael: Oh, yes! I knew him good. Dan: Hm, did you? Michael: Everybody said he was a mean - he had that, um…place there, eh…bought up [Route] 17…uh…Sky Lake. Joe: Mm-hm. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: Yes. See, my son was doing some floor work up in there, and I had to have some more tile. Dan: Yeah. Michael: And there come up - drove up in there. And Willis was up in there. And, eh…he said, “You got any business here?” I said, “I sure have.” Said, “I’m bringing some tile up here for my son.” He said, “Who?” I said, “John.” He says, “Is that your son?” I said, “Yes.” “Ooooh!” He grabbed, he said, “Let’s goin’ up in there.” He helped me to carry it there. He had four buildings here and two lakes. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: He said, “Gee.” He says, “I’m glad to meet you. I got every - take ‘em.” He says, “Anytime you wanna come in here, come.” And he said, “The place is yours.” Dan: Uh-huh. Michael: Yeah, he was awful, awful nice. Dan: George, George Ely was his Treasurer. Michael: Huh? Dan: George Ely was his Treasurer. Michael: Yeah. Well… Dan: As I understand it, there was- Michael: I think there was a, eh…wh-where, uh, there’s whatcha call there…? That Slovak cemetery. That whole place, all the way up to the top - that’s where his barns were for his horses. Joe: Did he have a race track there? Michael: Yes - big race track. Dan: That was on Riverside Dr., though? Michael: Riverside Dr. Dan: Yeah. Michael: There was no Riverside Dr. at that time because that was all fenced in up ‘till that hill there. Dan: Yeah. Michael: And there was all barns up in there. You take for instance, eh, the horses. [clears throat] You can see today, they’re all in bronze. Was you ever up to the Kilmer Ceme-Cemetery? Dan: Yeah, that’s, uh, that’s, uh, LaFrance Cemetery on Morgan Rd. Michael: Where? Dan: LaFrance Cemetery on Morgan Rd. Michael: Right. Yeah. Dan: They’ve got a monument to Exterminator. Michael: Exterminator. And the other one there is, eh… Dan: Sun Briar. Michael: Sun Briar. Dan: And, yeah. Michael: That was the fastest horse. That, that, the horse brought him money. Dan: Exterminator won the Derby. Michael: Yeah. Dan: That was a last-minute switch. Michael: Yeah. Dan: Yeah. Michael: He was, he was, you’ll see, you’ll see there’s other animals in there: Dogs, and cats, and everything. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Michael: Am I right? There’s monuments all around there. Dan: [clears throat] He’s got one big plot. Michael: Yeah. Dan: There, it’s very well-kept. Michael: Yep. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: You know, uh…everyone said he was a mean guy, and this and that. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: Well, I didn’t find him that way. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: What other association did you have with him? Michael: Wi’im? Joe: Yeah. Michael: Not - no kind of a personal association at all. Joe: I see, I just wanted to- Michael: It was just that way. Joe: Yeah. Michael: Meet him that way, and I always found him very, very good. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: Because you see, uh, here, when he died? Everybody was, yelled that there were out, said this and that. They told me, they said, “Well, why don’t you put your name in there? You’ll get something, anyway.” I said, “No, I don’t want anything.” Nettie: [laughs] Michael: “Don’t want anything that don’t belong to me.” But I’ll tell you, as far I was concerned? I thought Willis Sharpe Kilmer was a very good man. Dan: Yeah. Joe: Now, did he found the company or was it his father? Michael: Huh? Joe: Did he found the company or was it his father? Michael: Well, I’ll tell you the truth about it. He had a brother. And his brother, ah, eh, made that swamp root medicine. Dan: Right. Michael: Am I right? Dan: Right. Michael: I mean, he stole the patent. Dan: That’s right. That’s, that’s where he- Joe: Who, who did, now? Michael: Willis. Dan: Wi-Wi-Willis and his father- Michael: [chuckles] Dan: -stole the patent from [chuckles] the uncle. Michael: Am I right? Dan: Right. Joe: Well, wa-was it his father or was it Willis? Michael: It’s his brother. Joe: Yeah. But, who stole the patent? Michael: Willis stole it from his brother. Joe: I see, alright. Okay. Dan & Nettie: [chuckles] Michael: You see, they had to, whatcha call it…? Had it, eh…you know, to have, eh, have patents made, it’s quite tricky. Nettie: Right. Joe: Yeah. Now, who’s - who was Dr. Kilmer? The one they used in the advertising? They called it, “Dr. Kilmer.” Now, that was- Michael: That was Willis Sharpe. Annie: Thank you. Joe: Oh, was that Willis? Dan: Yeah, the thing- Annie: -we can talk to you then. Dan: Okay. Annie: Thank you very much for letting us- Michael: Yeah, it was nice here. Annie: Thank you. Michael: Yeah. Good talking to you. Annie: We’ll talk to you soon. Joe: Thank you. Annie: Bye, nice to meet you. Joe: We’ll let you know if there’s good - we’ll let you know if this is going to be on so you can watch yourself. [Shared laughter] Annie: We’ll tell you when. Okay? Michael: Well, that’s, that’s the whole story. [Unintelligible voices] Dan: I, I, uh, I’ve got, uh, I’ve got that on another tape. Uh, uh, about the, uh… Joe: Do you? Of Kilmer? Dan: Kilmer, yeah. Joe: Oh, okay. Dan: Stealin’ that, stealin’ that- Joe: Alright. Dan: -eh, patent. But, eh, as I understand, of course, in those days- Michael: You didn’t know it was a swamp root, did you? Dan: Eh, yeah, yes, I knew it was not a swamp root. But, eh, in those days, advertising was such that it was, eh, eh, it was, it was shady. In other words, somebody would send me on, and would advertise a yard of soap for 10 cents. Michael: Yeah. Dan: So you’d send in your 10 cents and they’d send you a, a yard of soap thread. Michael: Well… Joe: Yeah, it was- Michael: The thing is, know you take places like the First Ward. That’s where everybody came here to do their shopping. Everybody from whole [sic] Binghamton. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: ‘Cause they had the stuff they needed. And you take for instance Dr. Mary Ross…she was 100%, she was, uh, as I said before, on maternity cases. Joe: Yeah. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Well, I think we- Michael: And I couldn’t turn anybody down. I couldn’t, you know? People were poor. There was a lot of poor ones who, they- Dan: [clears throat] Michael: But, I still say what they love - what we need over here…we need a good shopping center and a good drug store. We have no drug store. Dan: No. Joe: You keep plugging that. Michael: Huh? Joe: You- [Tape cuts to sometime later] Dan: This concludes a televised interview with Mr. Michael Gruss of 10 Phelps St., Binghamton, New York. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Gruss Subject The topic of the resource Gruss, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.) Description An account of the resource Michael Gruss speaks about Willis Sharpe Kilmer, his horses and the Swamp Root Medicine he produced. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 68 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d6a19fd785b1d092b0c36c68f8793d76.jpeg 8ef99edb98dd0ae1c6597004ad5d87b9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/906a8ed5320d036b07a41532ace33917.m4a 179319acbb012691aba9ce6a0a7a90a1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9671362edf0dd60a52389b737ab770d9.m4a 179319acbb012691aba9ce6a0a7a90a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Constantine Markotsis and Russell Brown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Gulachok Biographical Text Michael Gulachok is a third generation Ukrainian American who has lived in the area for his entire life. Natalia, Michael’s wife, is a first-generation immigrant from Chernivtsi, Ukraine and has lived in the United States for two decades. Natalia lived in Brooklyn until marrying Michael and moving to the Southern Tier. Michaelis a retired insurance salesman and lives in the southern tier of New York with his wife. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:23 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-12 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Michael Gulachok. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=MichaelGulachok.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainian Americans; Ukrainians; Immigrants; Ukrainian diaspora Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Michael Gulachok Interviewed by: Russell Brown and Constantine Markotsis Transcriber: Russell Brown and Constantine Markotsis Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 09:52 am Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Russell Brown: Hello, I'm Russell Brown, and I am here today with Constantine Markotsis. Today is April 6th, 2016 and the time is currently 9:52 AM and we are here at St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City, New York to interview Michael Gulachok to find out more about the history of the Ukrainian American Community of the Southern Tier. The two of us aim to explore the complexities of your past as a couple with first generation and third generation immigrant backgrounds. Michael Gulachok: I'm a 3-rd generation Ukrainian, my grandparents came over in the early 1900's. They first came into Pennsylvania and then up to this area. My grandfather wanted to be a farmer, and my grandmother wanted to stay in town. So, they opened a restaurant, which I think started around 1928, and it is still over here on Harry L Drive the Oasis Restaurant, but it has been out of the family hands for quite some time. RB: Could you please tell us a little bit about where you are from? MG: I/m from this area, I was born in Binghamton at Lourdes Hospital 65 years ago, or maybe that was 56, no (chuckles), 65 years ago, and I grew up mostly in Candor and Owego and I graduated from Owego Free Academy, SUNY Binghamton and pretty much lived in the area all my life. Constantine Markotsis: If I could just interject, where in Eastern Europe are your roots from? MG: What would now be the southeastern most part of Poland, it's a small village outside of a town called Sanok, the village name is Ulychne, there is a great website Ulucz.com and it comes in English, and that'll tell you all about the village. There you can read all about the village. The history is actually quite interesting, just a little place and it seems to have great significance, and also on top of that, many of the people in this church came from that small village. CM: And so, I guess that some of the original migrants came and told their families and neighbors to come here for work? MG: Yeah come here to the EJ factories and IBM. A lot of people would come here over Scranton because that is mostly coal mining down there. For instance, I had a great Uncle who died in a coal mining accident, I think it was 1932, so I feel it was a little bit of a better life up here. RB: Can you tell us a little bit about where your wife (Nataliya) is from? MG: My wife Nataliya is from a town which is very close to the Romanian border, and it's called Chernivtsi. It's really quiet a nice city, it has a cultural component, there is a university there (Chernivtsi University). If you look at a picture of Chernivtsi (university), it looks like the architects were on psychedelics or something. I mean it is just so many different designs. If you ever get a chance look up Chernivtsi. She (Nataliya) is from there and her family lived in a small village outside of Chernivtsi. Her mother is still alive, plus she has her son, granddaughter and brother were still there. Her brother was living in the United States for 10 years or so, but he went back. And she had another brother who passed away. RB: Could you describe your family's life in Ulychne? MG: Well you see right now the Ukrainians were pushed out of Ulychne in 1946 by the Polish government. They were mostly resettled in what is now western Poland on the border of Germany and/or Ukraine. So Ulychne now and it has been since '46 or '47 is basically Polish, there are some Ukrainians still left but mostly Polish. And it is kind of isolated, there is a foot bridge as one place you can use to get to it (Ulychne). Then there is a bridge as another way and then there is a ferry. It's on the Sand River and I have been there twice. RB: How did you like it there in Ulychne? MG: Oh, I loved it! I couldn't live there. But there was a church there that is the oldest existing wooden Carpathian style church in Poland, and it's on a hillside looking over Ulychne. It dates from about 1620. It is a museum now and they don't have services there now. But if you go on the website you will see pictures of it. Also, I have to say when the Germans came through in '42 or something, a lot of the village either by the Germans or the Polish was burned. Basically, they destroyed it. We have a map, but I don't know if it is here, but there is a map from the early '30's of Ulychne it actually shows where everyone lived. There is a legend and numbers on the houses and you can actually see where my great grandparents lived. CM: You say that the Ukrainian community was kicked out in '46, but your family left ways before that when it was still Austrian? MG: Yeah, it was a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, and we had relatives there when they were kicked out. Supposedly there is a family legend where we had a relative who had a grocery store there and when the Germans came though they shot her on the spot because of her protesting. We had relatives there when the Poles relocated them. But my relatives came over around 1912. My grandfather was 16 and my grandmother was from the same village. Her last name was Mareyko, Julia Mareyko and she came over two years later. RB: Can you tell us a little bit about why your wife came over? MG: She had relatives over here, she had an uncle who was a banker over in New Haven. By banker I don't mean he had money, he just worked as a banker (chuckles). He sponsored her, and she got a green card out of the lottery system and so did her brother Wassel and they both were living in Brooklyn. That is how she came over about 18 years ago. RB: When your grandparents lived in Ulychne do you know how they felt about the quality of life there? MG: It wasn't very good. There were land barons who controlled basically everything, and they only thing they did there was wood, vegetables, meat, cattle, and things of that sort. They would have to give a lot of it away to the barons. RB: Do you know why your wife decided to move over? MG: A better life. It's rough over there. The economy for a long time has not been very good in the Ukraine. CM: Just to clarify, what year did you say your wife moved to the US? MG: I am only guessing it was 16 or 18 years ago. I met her 15 years ago this May. She had been in the country for about two or three years at that time. CM: So right around 2000 basically? MG: A little before that yeah. I think '98. CM: So, then she lived through a lot of the Soviet Era? MG: Oh yeah. For instance, I took her to see Baryshnikov at the Anderson Center, and we had great seats and we were sitting right in front. And when I was telling her "Oh we are going to go see Baryshnikov, she really didn't know who he was, and I asked myself why she did not know. He defected in the '70s in Toronto before coming to the United States and you know the Soviet Union is not going to be allotting Baryshnikov over there. So, she really didn't know her story. CM: So, you could say in America you were able to learn more about Ukrainian history perhaps more than someone who actually lived there? MG: Oh yeah. Everything was Sovietized and it's basically what the Russians wanted them to know and learn. So, they had very limited knowledge of the United States and we were always portrayed as the devil. CM: Do you think the people bought into that, or was her family consciousness of the fact that something wasn't right? MG: I wouldn't say that about her parents, but, her contemporaries and her peers probably got that after a while because you can listen to radio for a year or get a bootleg movie and then they question why the US has such nicer things over there. You know the story: A Soviet athlete would walk into a supermarket and see 30 different types of shampoo and it was just mind blowing to them. RB: Based on your own experience what do you think sets 1st generation and 3rd generation immigrants apart? MG: Well, as far as 3rd generations go I did not have to embrace my history or my past, but I did. A lot of people just let it go and become Americans, and that is what our grandparents wanted really. They never really talked about the old country that much. They wanted us to be Americans, but there are so many people I know who are 3rd generation and they have no relation to their past, although it is up to each person. CM: I guess I may be able to relate as a 3rd generation and I don't know if this relates to your experience, but My dad's father was born in Greece and he would always say "Don't play soccer, play baseball because that is what the Americans play!" And then as my generation rolled along we want to know more about where we came from. I don't know if that kind of sounds kind of similar to you. MG: Yeah although I never really let it go. I was always into it, but I don't speak Ukrainian fluently, I know words and phrases. It is like that for so many people now, people are trying to find out more about their roots with places like Ancestry.com. For instance, the church of Latter-Day Saints has a big collection of genealogical resources. For instance, if I had gone to them before going out on my own trying to find family history I would have saved a lot of money. CM: I guess going off that, you said you speak some basic Ukrainian. I know we have Greek school, in this church is there a Ukrainian school? MG: There used to be in the 50's and 60's. There hasn't been one for quite a long time. CM: Do the kids speak Ukrainian? MG: Sometimes, it depends on their parents and whether or not they speak it at home. There are a lot of people in this church who don't speak it and some that do. I wish we could recruit new generation Ukrainians here. For instance, there is a Pentecostal Ukrainian church over in Conklin in Berkshire. They actually have been getting VISA's because they say they don't have religious freedom in the Ukraine and that has been their entry point into the United States. CM: This community is based on an older generation of immigrants than some of the other southern tier communities? MG: Yeah, the wave of immigration from this church and this area basically in the early 1900's or the first 40 years of the 1900's. RB: Now do you know why most people decided to live here in the southern tier of New York? MG: Well wherever they have relatives or sponsors. I know that whenever the 1st generation peoples came here they looked at the hills and the weather here and they were just like "god this is just like home." (Laughter) It isn't very different here and there. I went to Sanok and it felt just like Berkshire, NY. The houses and the utilities are a little different obviously, but it basically looks the same. It depends where you have family, there are other Ukrainian churches in Florida and southern California. RB: Just a little bit more about yourself, do you currently work? MG: No, I am retired, I have a seasonal NY state job with the gaming commission. And I work 61 days a year at (Job). RB: Could you tell us what your wife does? MG: My wife is a sales associate at the men's clothing department in Macy's. She has been there for 14 years. RB: What lessons has your work life taught you and your wife? MG: To be honest, to be hardworking, I always intended to get their 15 minutes early. I liked getting to work and having time to prepare and not just jump right into things like wham! I like getting there like 20 minutes early, having a cup of coffee, and then when it's 8 or 8:30 get into it. I have seen so many situations where people got in at 8:30 and start working at 10 after 9 (laughter). So, for my wife she is conscientious and very hard-working. She is probably the most hard-working person I have ever met. This woman works even when she is on the telephone she will be cleaning the house. She'll be doing yard work after the sun goes down and I'll tell her to come on in you know it's dark out there (laughter), you've done enough today. They are just really really driven. RB: Do you believe that is because of the culture she was brought up in the Ukraine? MG: Yeah, you know kind of strict and hard-working. I know her father worked in a factory and he never missed a day, they are all pretty hard-working. RB: Do you know what family was like for her and for yourself? MG: As I said I have been to her village and her city a couple of times. It is a beautiful city, she is in a village just outside the city along the Prut River. Prut means swift in Ukrainian. I have seen her schools and where she went to school, the schools are fairly nice. It's kind of idyllic area, I swear to god it's like a fast-moving river, I mean you can still go into it and swim in it. There are also evergreen hillsides rising up and it is like you are in Deposit, NY. She had a fairly good life there. And I had a good life here. My parents bought land along the Susquehanna River. So, you know I didn't have a Huck Finn life (chuckles) but I had boats all my life. I still have land on the river and a house, but we were flooded twice and now we live in Endwell on a hill (laughter). CM: You said the schools were pretty good where your wife came from. If I remember correctly, while the Soviet Union had a lot of hardships, it always had a good education program. MG: Yeah, she went to a university. She went to Kiev University, she got a business degree. You know it is kind of difficult for people from other countries. They come over here and they are highly educated, and it is difficult translating that education experience into the mainstream of this country. I've known doctors, chemists that have come over here and are driving taxi cabs. They never achieve success they would have achieved if they were born here. Because their language is not that precise, and I know I couldn't do what my wife did. My wife came here and had to learn a new alphabet, a new language, new customs, how to do things like an American, so it's very difficult. CM: So, your wife didn't speak any English when she came over? MG: No, she went to class for English as a second language. CM: ESL? MG: Yeah. I also help her everyday with her language and she doesn't teach me any Ukrainian (laughter). RB: That's a good segway into the next question. Do you know how well she assimilated to the United States? MG: She is very assimilated, although she hurts easily. Working in merchandising you meet all kinds of people, nice people, people of different backgrounds. And she talks to customers who can't understand her, and she feels offended or hurt. But she has acclimated pretty well. RB: Could you tell us about your grandparents when they came here? MG: My grandfather's name was Mike Gulachok, although it was probably Mykhailo, but it got changed in Ellis Island. I don't know if it is in there (referring to the binder on his family) but there is a boat manifest and a lot of information in there depending on what they put in. I think that DeDe (grandfather in Ukrainian) I think he started in a coal mine down in Scranton and then moved here for a shoe factory and then he opened up the restaurant. They learned English pretty well, they learned to read, write and speak English well. They had a good life and they loved their family. They had 4 children and they are buried up here. RB: What were some things your grandparents taught your parents and your parents taught you in terms of values? MG: (laughter as he is pointing to the picture of his grandparents in front of the Oasis Restaurant) CM: Just for the interview we are looking at a picture of his grandparents in front of the Oasis restaurant. That was the family business. MG: This is Baba's (grandma in Ukrainian) birthday party, and I think this is around 1956 and this is me (points to himself as a kid) and this is my mother, and all these are family and friends. That was in the Binghamton Press. You know the cover of SGT. Peppers (Beatles album)? CM: Yes. RB: Yes. MG: Well this is the family SGT. Peppers (laughter). CM: You have a very large extended family for sure. MG: Now do you want to ask me on how I met my wife? RB: Absolutely! MG: Oh, because this is a crazy story. May 15 years ago, I was spending a long weekend in NYC, and I'm staying in a hotel up in the theatre district. I decided to go down to the East Village to see what's happening down there, so I took a bus down Second Avenue and I got off at 7th street. The street was closed off because there was a Ukrainian festival and that is where I met here. RB: Oh wow. MG: I gave her my phone and address and she wrote to me and I wrote back and yeah that's how we met. RB: That is amazing. MG: Doesn't that make you believe in fate? I mean if I wasn't in NYC or decided to take the bus I would have never met her. CM: Yeah, a lot had to happen for that, for sure. I wrote down here that you mentioned in your family history that your family worked in the coal mines and moved to the shoe factories. From what Stephan and the Father told us it seems like your story and the Parish story are very similar. MG: Oh yeah, very similar. You know some people became engineers, some became doctors, some were bartenders, some were restaurant owners, some farmers. Not everyone is a doctor or lawyer, some people have to cook the bread or stir the paint. CM: It seems though that now when you compare it to the 1920's that the Parish seems to be a lot better off now the quality of life seems much better. MG: Yeah around the 60's and 70's this area was quite booming. I mean it's been in decline but there were a lot of opportunities here. One-time IBM had employed 16,000 people, but now they employ like 2,000. There were a lot of opportunities here, the value of opportunity. RB: what was your daily life like when you first met Natalia? She is a first-generation immigrant, so she still has to get used to the country and everything-- MG: Well that was interesting, she was living in Brooklyn and I was living in the country outside of Owego on the river. I proposed, and we got married in New York City at the marriage bureau in Manhattan, had many of her friends from Brooklyn for the reception and got a U-Haul [for her belongings]. Then I brought her up here. She grew up in the country-- RB: [the Southern Tier was] as close to home as possible MG: She went from living in NYC to living in the sticks up here. She liked it here, she learned how to drive a car, etc. and I've unsuccessfully tried to talk her into moving back to Brooklyn. CM: I imagine in Brooklyn that she lived in an ethnic Ukrainian community? MG: Actually not, she lived in Sunset Park, which was mainly an orthodox Jewish neighborhood. It really had all kinds of people there. There was this one commercial center close to where she lived, and I remember that there was a Chechen night club near it, and we'd walk by and the owners would say "come on in! Come on in!" But we'd say no thanks. There were really all kinds of people there. CM: I imagine that she had to assimilate pretty quickly, and assume that she spoke some English by the time you guys met? MG: Oh yeah, she had been taking some ESL courses, and while I writing to her, she would share [our correspondence] with her uncle, who told her “This is what you need, you need exposure to the language". While she lived in Brooklyn, all of her friends were Ukrainian, which led to her being pretty insular, and she didn't speak to many people in English other than when she went to a store for instance. When she came up here, she really got immersed. RB: I imagine it'd be easier to do so up here (the southern tier), than in the hectic city. MG: If you don't, talk to anyone in a language, you won't learn it. CM: I agree, my experience has been such that I think you could take 80,000 of those (ESL) classes, but the real way to learn a language is just by being forced to speak it. MG: Yeah, you can even learn English by just watching TV, especially situational comedies. Sometimes I hear things coming out of her mouth, and I think gee whiz, are we on law and order? CM: Going off of that, have you noticed differences in Ukrainian and American mannerisms? Inter personal quirks perhaps? Such as how far away you should stand from the person you're talking to? MG: Yeah, I've noticed that she is superstitious. If you look at pictures from the old country, you'll notice that no one is smiling. RB: I have noticed that. MG: Another example of this is when I go to buy clothes at the Salvation Army, she'll say that we shouldn't buy it since it was certainly owned by dead people, which we all know is not necessarily true or important if it was. She is also afraid of the cellar, I haven't the slightest idea why, and whenever she goes down there to wash something, I always have to check in on her and ask if she is ok. They (Ukrainians) certainly have their ways of acting, behaving and thinking, which we might not be familiar with. RB: One of my Ukrainian friends told me that in his home he isn't permitted to whistle or to leave his keys on the table, is that a superstition that sounds familiar to you? MG: I've never heard that one! [Laughs] CM: If I recall, our friend also mentioned that his family told him not to smile too much, since that would lead to wrinkles in old age, does that sound familiar to you? MG: I haven't heard of that one either. However, I have noticed that Ukrainian culture tends to be less relaxes, far more formal. If you go to someone's house you are expected to kiss all of the women's hands, bring flowers, food, wine, or something. Which I feel is nice. CM: In general, that seems more formal than American culture, how do you feel that large holidays compare for instance? MG: All gatherings certainly had a larger religious aspect to them, as opposed to pagan. Our Christmas and Easter are almost exclusively based on Christianity. As you know, our Christmas and Easter are celebrated at different times than other Christian denominations. CM: Just to clarify for the recording, your church follows the old calendar correct? MG: Correct, we follow the Julian calendar. CM: And Easter coincides with Passover [in Eastern Orthodoxy] MG: Yes, and this year our Easter will fall on May 1st. CM: And do the other local Ukrainian churches in the area follow the same religious calendar? Such as Sacred Heart (A catholic parish) or the Pentecostal church? MG: No, Sacred Heart's calendar is in line with the rest of the catholic calendar, and I'm not really not sure what the Pentecostals do. RB: What made your grandparents chose this church over the others? MG: Well my grandparents were founding members of the church and were very involved in it: one of grandparents even became church board president. It was a very important parcel of their history, their culture. CM: Of course, as in many ethnic Eastern Orthodox denominations, I noticed while I was upstairs that this church has a Ukrainian flag next to the altar, and I feel that we can safely say that this doesn't function merely a place of worship, as opposed to the Catholic Church for instance. It is a national church that embodies the ethnic history and cultural values of the community here. MG: It is, and no matter what variant of orthodoxy one practices, be it Serbian, Greek, Ukrainian, or otherwise, is still the same orthodox faith. I personally feel that it shouldn't be hung on an ethnicity or an ethnic background, because religion is universal. The semi separation arose from linguistic barriers and we should always aim to appeal to and include members of all other nations who wish to pray. I do remember that very recently we had a Binghamton University student who had come from Ethiopia, and he prayed with our community while he was here. I like the idea that you can come here regardless of what your heritage is. CM: I absolutely agree with you. I do feel that this view is more widespread now in 2016 than it would have been historically. MG: I would also imagine that earlier generations wouldn't have felt that way. I feel that people have become more thoughtful, open, and progressive than they were in say the 1930s. CM: It seems that if you had an Ethiopian who felt comfortable here that we could characterize the parish itself as progressive and open one. MG: Yes, we were happy to have him here. RB: Just going back to your relatives, what sort of things did your parents teach you to regard as important? Such as the values they imbued in you? MG: Honesty. Honesty, and hard work. I can't say love of family; don't get me wrong we loved each other, but we didn't really reach out to far. I started to get more involved in the church as of the 1990s and am happy to have seen society as a whole become kinder, and more well informed. RB: Going off of that, as a 3rd generation Ukrainian American and a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, what do you feel best defines being "Ukrainian American", [as a Ukrainian immigrant would see it] and with regards to how you yourself would define it? MG: Pride and love of heritage. My family came from an area of the world that had been persecuted, repressed, and that made heritage all the more important to hold onto-- I consider myself an American first and a Ukrainian American second. I value passing down our culture to the next generation, especially given the hard times that we [Ukrainians] have faced. Ukraine has been in the geopolitical crosshairs for centuries. Ukraine itself means "borderland" in Russian, which is evidence of its struggle through the millennia. That being said, I saw an online map of the changing borders of Europe over time, and we certainly aren't the only people to face such issues. Going forward I want to see the Ukraine succeed, and to be able to provide a better and more prosperous life for the Ukrainian people. You didn't happen to see the frontline documentary about Putin did you? CM: No, but the two of us have managed to keep current as to the basics of the current situation in the Ukrainian [i.e.: Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014], and the country certainly has had a rough few years recently--. CM: We could also ask you this: The Ukraine itself isn't a monolith: Many Ukrainians belong to different religious sects, such as the Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox churches, Judaism, the Pentecostal church, etc. Some Ukrainians speak Ukrainian at home, other Russian, others Slovak, etc. I suppose we could say that there are many potential elements that can come together as part of a Ukrainian identity. MG: All of those elements can vary, at the end of the day it is identifying with your heritage. If you were to google my name (Michael Gulachok) online, you'd find that there aren't any aside from me. I am proud of my name, and moreover my heritage. It feels like I'm one of the last Mohicans in a way, because I am probably the last one. CM: I suppose Gulachok is a rare family name then? MG: Yes. An interesting fact is that the word "Gula" in my last name had its origins in the Catholic Church and related to debauchery [laughter]. CM: My own last name translates to smuggler, so you never know [laughter]. MG: For all we know I had a drunken dancer as the family founder [laughter] RB: Given that you are a 3rd generation Ukrainian, and your wife is 1st generation, what sort of values are emphasized in your household? What do you find most important in the household? MG: Well, when my brother visited us recently he said "You know, this smells like Baba's (Grandma's) house." Meaning the food that we cook, the icons that we have, and our artwork aren't very different from what my parents and grandparents would have had. When you step inside you instantly get the impression that you're in a Ukrainian enclave. I had a beautiful watercolor painting of the church that was ruined in the flood in Owego, and I still have it in the abandoned house. Now it seems sort of impressionistic. CM: I guess it morphed into a Kandinsky [laughter] M; Yeah either that or a Polack. RB: How does your religion shape your Ukrainian identity? MG: It is very much a part of who I am, when I had once physically left the church, I hadn't spiritually done so. The sermons here, and the liturgy are nowadays roughly one-half Ukrainian, and one-half English. It is a very integral part of who I am and who we are. CM: In my own experience, it seems like an uncle of mine who wasn't too religious, but the church was always a part of the Greek identity. I feel as though the same applies in this community, and I feel in every sect of Eastern Orthodoxy, that the church life is integral in shaping the ethnic identity. MG: Yes, I would agree. RB: Would you say that you are more American, or more Ukrainian? MG: I am more of an American, while my wife is more of a Ukrainian. CM: Your wife of course lived there, and you mentioned that you've revisited Eastern Europe a few times. MG: yes, I have been to Poland three times, Ukraine twice, Slovakia once, Russia once. CM: Over the course of your visits, did you notice any change over time. MG: Yes, especially in Poland, which is doing very well. Ukrainians look over the border at Poland and think "wow, the Poles are doing so well, if only we could do that". That and Ukraine is still struggling under the thumb of Russia, the people just want a better life for themselves and their children. Poland is truly doing very well. The first time I flew into Warsaw, which is actually pronounced "Var-SHAH-va", the airport was very substandard, it was a dreary and dilapidated cinderblock building, and then just a few years later in the early 90s, the airport and the city itself had rapidly transformed. CM: Just to clarify, when did you make your first visit? MG: I first visited Russia and the Ukraine in 1992. CM: So, the USSR had just fell. MG: Correct, and the people were very excited for the future, Ukraine was free. CM: So the general feeling wasn't a more apprehensive "what do we do now?" It was more of a "finally! We can't wait, Thank God! This is the best thing that could've happened! MG: I never like to travel in a tourist bubble, when I went to Russia and the Ukraine for the first time I traveled with a peace group, so it wasn't a sightseeing itinerary-based trip, we were able to really immerse ourselves and met a lot of people. We travelled extensively, by train, taxi, boat, plane, horse. People were excited, they didn't know what would come next but they were excited and hopeful. RB: I recall you saying you and your wife travelled together to your wife's village. Did she ever say how it has changed if it has at all? MG: There is definitely more building going on, newer/ more modern homes have popped up. Keep in mind these are single family houses, I'm not talking about multi story towers. The town looks like the old country aside from some new housing. The school especially looks very modern. CM: You said that during the interlude between your visits, the area had changed quite a lot. Perhaps you could touch on the change in culture, and access to the outside world? MG: They want to become more like the west, and it is not as closed as it used to be in Soviet days. The people now know about what is going on in the world. RB: Do you feel that the Ukraine is becoming more Americanized. MG: I would say maybe more Europeanized. After all Europe is right next door. RB: Going back to the home, what sort of traditions do you retain from the old country in the home? What sort of things, such as Ukrainian Orthodox history matter a lot in your home? MG: Well it goes back to the holidays; Stephan could probably articulate this better than I. But we try and keep our holidays in line with our Ukrainian Orthodox traditions, and our house. RB: If I recall you speak some Ukrainian? MG: yes "У вас є сестра?" (Do you have a sister?) [Laughter] "принести мені пиво" (Bring me a beer) [laughter] C; All of the practical terms I suppose MG: Of course, "Вибачте, де туалет?" (Excuse me, where is the toilet?) CM: Yeah that'd definitely be good to know [laughter] RB: Do you and your wife speak Ukrainian at home? MG: Well she does when she swears at me [laughter] she swears in Ukrainian. We have Skype, and she'll speak Ukrainian on Skype with her friends from Brooklyn and New Jersey who don't speak much English. She does have Skype connections with some people back in the Ukraine, but unfortunately none of her relatives live close to someone with access to Skype. So she isn't able to look at and speak with them. But it is definitely nice that she can keep in touch with some people in New York and the Ukraine with it. CM: Would that be because her friends are from a developed urban center like Kiev, or Odessa, etc. MG: Yes, those people are certainly more prosperous, and have greater access to the globe. CM: So it seems that there is a much greater disparity between urban and rural Ukraine than urban and rural America. MG: Oh yeah, the cities have become very cosmopolitan and cultured, there is also certainly more economic activity going on in the cities. It is amazing to see horses and wagons. CM: So you still see that to this day? MG: Oh yeah, there are a lot of cars, but yes. The first time I went to Poland I was amazed by the sheer number of farmers using horses and wagons. After ten years had passed there were substantially fewer. RB: Even within ten years a country can certainly change a lot, and I believe we have just about exhausted our time. CM: Yes, right now though if there is anything you would like to add, or something you feel we didn't cover please add it in. MG: As is I'll probably think of it as I walk out the door. [Laughter] RB: Thank you very much for sharing the stories of you and your wife. CM: Thank you very much, we enjoyed it a lot. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Gulachok Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Michael Gulachok. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gulachok, Michael ; Markotsis, Constantine ; Brown, Russell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Michael Gulachok is a third generation Ukrainian American who has lived in the area for his entire life. Natalia, Michael’s wife, is a first-generation immigrant from Chernivtsi, Ukraine and has lived in the United States for two decades. Natalia lived in Brooklyn until marrying Michael and moving to the Southern Tier. Michael is a retired insurance salesman and lives in the southern tier of New York with his wife. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-12 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Michael Gulachok.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-06 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c4e1b2f45a3538a0a3df2c8127d6b867.mp3 cfb3d3213cf049b88dfaa6613f77705d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Harendza, Michael Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Caganek, Anna ; O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1977-12-15 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:03 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55941">Interview with Michael Harendza</a> Subject LCSH Harendza, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Musicians -- Interviews; Organists; Slovak Americans Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Michael L. Harendza Interviewed by: Anna Caganek and Dan O’Neil Date of interview: 15 December 1977 Anna: This is Anna Caganek: the interviewer. I am talking to Professor Michael L. Harendza. 69 Colfax Ave, Binghamton, New York. The date is December 15, 1977. Uh, Professor? Tell me about your life and experiences in the community. Professor Harendza: Well, my mother brought me here from, ehm, Austria. It’s now Czechoslovakia. The name of the town that I was born in was, uh…Storcin [Stojčín]. S-T-O-R-C-I-N. Storcin. It’s in the northwestern part of Czechoslovakia, in the small Carpathian Mountains. My father died—he traveled extensively, he came to America about four times. He traveled to South America. And, uh, he came back home, and my mother got pregnant again. And I popped out. [chuckles] I was born on June 29, 1901. My father died, so we buried him. And we stayed there. I had an older sister: Rose Harendza. She came to America—I don’t know how, I don’t know what year, around 1904 I think—and she married John Kukol and they had twelve children, they kept on coming. Then we came, and I shall never forget, I was very happy on that boat. Mother said we naturally got bad steerage, they couldn't afford to get us a better class ticket and—but I got acquainted with the Captain and the attendants on the boat. They let me run around, and I always had a feeling then that I had a good voice. I would sing Hungarian folk songs and Slovak folk songs. And I would get a lot of loose change—I brought home that and I gave it to my mother. They also gave me a lot of fruit, which Mother appreciated very much, because being down in that steerage, as a matter of fact she was sick all the while. It took us two weeks to cross from Hamburg, we went on this boat [for] two weeks. We arrived in Ellis Island sometime in the early part of November, and we had to go through all the various requirements—shots and medicine, everything else. And then good physical procedure to see that you were alright, and so they let me pass. Mother was sick all the while. And then they took the address and put a tag on my mother, and a tag on me: Binghamton, New York. [laughs] And they brought us down here, and the train arrived at about 5 o’clock in the morning, and my brother-in-law John Kukol met us there, and we couldn't get a taxi or anything, so we had to trudge all the way from the old station down to the other folks there. We stayed around—our first Christmas and first Thanksgiving was that year here, as far as I know now—not too much, rather hazy, because I was just past five years old—and I did things a boy would do. [chuckles] Anna: My bad habit— Michael: As I said, when I got to the school, then they—in January I went to the Jarvis Street School, there is an office building now. I went there and I’ll never forget Miss Perkins, the first grade, I went, and, ah, Miss Stone—a saintly woman, a wonderful woman, she did an awful lot for the Slovak people of this neighborhood and Slovaks in general. I got in a little jam one time, my mother had to come down to prove something. Well it wasn’t so, I just tried to get away from being punished after school, and she brought an interpreter with her—I never thought Mother would be that fussy—and so Miss Perkins and I and my mother and Helen Takac and Miss Stone. I lost a pair of shoes, and she knew—they cost a lot of money, these shoes—and she knew the other children going to school without shoes—I didn’t see why I shouldn’t go, they were clumsy on me anyway. So I used to take them off and then hop to the corner house on Grace and Jarvis—remember, Anna, where Connie lives now? There were some people there, a place where I could put my shoes during school, and you know I got away with it for quite a while, but when I—one time, when I came from school for my shoes, they weren't there, somebody stole them. And so naturally Miss Stone and they wanted to know everything, in the school, and Mother wanted to know too, because two or three dollars was an awful lot of money to her—she had to work in Dunn McCarthy almost a week for it, for it. Of course I tried to earn some a little bit later, sold papers and things to help out every possible way. She went along and somehow—I took—found out they didn't steal my shoes, because my, I put my shoes in there, and—they did steal them, but it was really my fault for leaving my shoes there. And also after I got the whole interview through, she came from Miss Stone. [Imitating his mother] “Please, give me stick.” You know, like a little pussy willow. Wooo! I got a good royal licking. She said, “Michael”—in Slovak, she said to me, “I'm not punishing you for the shoes—they’re lost, they’re lost—but the shame that you gave me, that I had to come here to this good woman and show my son was a liar.” I shall never forget that, and when she went and left Miss Stone took me upstairs to her office. “Michael,” she says, “you have a very, very wonderful mother.” Imagine it, five years—fingers stay on my head all the while. She said, “I don’t have to worry about you because you will make your way in the world all right.” I shall never forget, they were always so nice to me, everybody. And I went through—when I got to the 5th grade, St. Cyril School was built and they opened up in 19—it was built in 1910, but they couldn't get any Slovak Sisters to teach there, so they rented out to St. Patrick’s, and they used it for high school for girls there for about two years, and then in 1912 got four Sisters from Danville, Sisters of St. Cyril & Method. And from there I went to the 5th grade—6th, 7th, 8th grade I put in there, and everything went very nicely. And in the summer I would get a job somewhere else—remember Deyo Farms? I would go there picking cherries and strawberries, and weeding, you know, earn a little extra money, because naturally, poor Mom couldn't go alone and do everything. She gave me everything, l never had to be ashamed about my dress or anything. Imagine—I was the only one that used to wear shoes, and that’s why the shoe subject was such an important thing. And l went to St. Cyril’s School, and l stayed there until l graduated in 1916, from the 8th grade. Then l went down to St. Patrick’s, the high school there, and did my regular work. l took care of the paper route in the summer, in summer the Press, and in the morning I would get up early enough to go and pick up the Herald—remember the old paper? I’d be around the corner there, so—and we got along pretty good. My brother was a very fine [inaudible], like on the wall, like on the— Anna: Plastic— Michael: Plastic. And he was very good to us, especially to mother, and I know l got my first shoes from him, and he was good to me. We stayed up to my sister’s—she was very nice too—I roomed with my brother, and she had her own. And then he had to go to Albany, they had a big hotel or something. ‘Cause he was flying to meet—he took me to hear Paderewski in the old high school. Anna: What? Michael: Paderewski—the pianist, Ignacy Jan Paderewski, the world’s greatest pianist. And that was my first contact with coaching. They took me over to the State Armory over there, John McCormick sang—an enormous amount of people came, they got across to that old State Armory, where the Forum is now, that old big State Armory. l was just as big a rascal as anybody, let me tell you that l was no angel but l didn’t know better things, and then l went to high school, and l went for two years, after that Mother got very sick. After that l got work in Dunn McCarthy's as office boy, taking the cripples around the room and and later on got 15 dollars a week, then got 20 dollars a week, which could carry us on very nicely, and l worked there and kept on singing. Then we had a little money and l asked mother if I could go and study voice, I had a lot, l had two years of piano with Katherine O’Brian—you remember her—she used to give piano lessons by the Post Office. Bill Danek and a few others took piano lessons, l had two years of piano, and when I was working and had a little money I went to see Cecil Masten. Cecil was an awful good teacher, he was a very fine baritone and he used to do a lot of State work. He was on the corner of Main St. and Crestmont Rd., and it went along pretty good and, but my brother again went out and we didn't have too much of an income, and she got sick so I had to quit school. I was already 17, and I would sing in different choirs every time I got a chance to get in some hotel or something, I would get 4 or 5 dollars Saturday & Friday but we, I didn't know other things, so I continued my piano and after a while—St. Joseph Rangers were still here, and Miss Katherine Vinceyas, she was the organist. She had to have an operation on her appendix and she had to be out quite a while, so Father Scripo called Father Casmir, said, “Michael, you can play while she is out. Take over the job while she is out.” And that would give me 25 dollars a month, but that was pin money for me because I had my regular job. I went on and on, and after a while I was playing there on one second Easter, I was playing. And then they tore down the old church and built another one, and it wasn't painted or anything, and they had a mobile organ there, I was singing there and then Father Martincek—remember him? He left, and the Franciscan Fathers came to Father Cyril and Father Florian Billy, and I sang once in a while, but I sang in a little church which was Lithuanian, made a little money there, so I did this and Easter 8 o’clock mass, I played and sang in Lithuanian. I was very active in Languages, I sang, Father Scripo came from the altar, so Father Cyril was going to have the next mass, each had one mass because a lot of people in St. Cyril, Glenwood Ave., our Parish extended to Stella Ireland Road. He said to Father Cyril, “Who is that boy? He has a good voice, plays nice too but very good.” I went home and he shot right up to my house, which was right up the hill, and wanted to know why I didn't go to St. Cyril’s. I said, “Well, Father, they pay me and every penny counts, cost money, I like to study and it costs money, voice lessons and piano lessons. Father send Father Billy to ask me to take the job, then I said, “I know what, I’ll play for three months during the summer, I'll play and be an organist when school starts, 30 dollars a week.” The organist said he will pay the most, 75 dollars a month, 5 dollars for funerals, 3 dollars for weddings and 1 dollar Requiem mass—getting 75 dollars, that would bring the total to 150 dollars a month. All summer long I played, then when school started, I said to Father, “I got my old job in the factory, I was sample operator in the office, I was my own boss, I had to do them, nobody else could do them but me. That’s when I was making 35 to 40 dollars a week then,” I told them. “$75 a month,” Father Florian said. “How about it, Mike?” he said, “We will give you the job,” and on New Year’s Day $75 a week, 75 dollars. All the while I got active in the chamber of the concert staff, singing of concerts Dan: You said you studied under Cycil Masten, but you also heard Ignacy Paderewsky? Michael: Paderewsky, yeah. And also John McCormick, and also Anna Pavlova, and also the New York Philharmonic, Dr. Walter conducting. I took them all in, I took them water as favors, and I saw one thing, I would have to advance my education if I will get anywhere, and also keep on studying with Cecil Masten. I would take a lesson, once in a while, then Dr. Harold M. Neiber, organist in Christ Episcopal Church years ago—well anyway, he was the organist there, so I studied first organ with him, then I studied piano. Then he got a good job in New York, in a cathedral. I went to—Francis— [pause] He lived on, Saint, St. Mary’s Church—after 30 years I can’t think of his name. He lived on—what’s that street, on the corner of Main, where that church, that St. Mary’s church is? Dan: Fayette. Michael: Fayette. On the third house down. He had two daughters that were teachers. Dan: It wouldn’t be O’Brian, would it? Michael: No, no. I know Mr. O’Brian. Dan: He had two daughters. Michael: Yeah. Well he taught piano and his daughters [inaudible]. Well I went and studied with him, piano. I had two years with Dr. Harold Neiber, and then I had four years with—mmmmm—Francis? Frank? He was a very famous man in the ward. Right in your territory. [laughs] Dan: Right in my territory and I can’t remember it. It was probably before my time. Michael: No, that was about 1927. Dan: I was pretty young then. Michael: Francis, Francis. Dan: I remember Casey. Michael: Casey, he was an organist at St. Mary's Church, and he took Francis’s place, then he played in Endicott in St. Andrew’s, and Mr. Johnson paid for it. Well anyway I studied with him. And then— Mrs. Harendza: Mr. O’Connor. Michael: Francis O'Connor. [laughs] Thank you, Mama, very much. You best see him, you probably know more about it than I do. Then summer came along, I told Father Cyril, “I am going, Father. I am going to be an organist.” Sacred Heart in Manhattan. I’d spent four years and five summers—all summer courses—I came twice for my examination to get my certification, my license. And we got along very nice, [inaudible], I specialized in that. We got along fine, I was able to do a lot of nice things, we organized a nice choir at St. Cyril’s. We had, ah—I can show you all kinds of pictures, where are they? I continued working. I joined the American Field of Organists, and I was 16 in 1933 to 1936, we put on several concerts. We also, on Civic Music, over for the Board at the Chamber of Commerce. [inaudible] So we all worked together. There were very nice women there, and so I went. [inaudible] And ever since then I have been very active, even to this day [inaudible] and I tell Helen, I said, “Helen, I'm not working and I’m not doing anything or teaching.” I said, “They gave me my bread and butter, and they made me the man that I am, and I got a good reputation.” I think you know that. Dan: I do. Michael: I don’t have to tell them. I always admire the Opera—the Tri-Opera Chorus and Symphony, the Ballet at Roberson I love, and also all the cultural things, I like them, they seem to do things for me. I went there for three summers, I got my supervisor thing down for three years, twice each, time down in St. Cyril’s, then I am going up in June ‘til the end of August. I took my examination and I got my first certificate, which was for teaching from 1st to the 5th grade, and I earned the 2nd year certificate, from 6th to 9th grade. That’s as far as I am going, because I didn't go to high school much. Dan: Where did you get these Certificates from? Michael: Pius X school in Manhattanville and Pius X . ‘Course we know these colleges, they know these schools, and this was connected with Manhattanville College in New York. This was Catholic, down all from Rome, and later on could earn [inaudible]. That was, I kept on working right along. Gave concerts, gave numerous concerts. I was active. [inaudible] And now that I am 76 years old I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, but I still, as you can see how my hands are, but I still, every Sunday at 7:30 I play the mass—by the altar I got a little Conn organ—and I sing with the people. The old Slovak hymns. And they sing and I love it. Dan: Where is this? Michael: St. Cyril’s, even now. Then Monday and Tuesday we have Novena's, and I play the 12 o’clock mass, and then we have the Novena's for Blessed Virgin Mary. Tuesday I play the 12 o’clock mass and Novena to St. Anthony. That’s the amount of work I do now, but before— Mrs. Harendza: You play the funerals, too. Michael: Huh? Mrs. Harendza: You play the funerals. Michael: [inaudible] Can you think of anything else? Anna: What do you think of the changes in the church? That’s what I wanted to ask you. Michael: The changes…well, I’ve been brought up on the very, very strict rules. If I dared and played the songs that we are singing now, I'd be excommunicated, but now it’s perfectly all right. What they want, the Church wants them to participate, [inaudible]. In some churches the Priest goes up and down, and that way they all do a little bit of it, but I got a good strong voice. [inaudible] I don’t agree to a lot of things on that score, because I am a Gregorian chant man all the way, and to me there's no music more beautiful than Gregorian chant. And these hymns—some of these Hymns are very beautiful, and I enjoy playing them, and these people never heard of—they’re practically all taken from the Methodist Hymnal, and all through the Presbyterian Hymnal and the Lutheran Hymnal. [inaudible] Dan: At what age did you come over, did you immigrate, Professor? What age? Michael: 5 years old. June 29th 1901, and 1907 we came. Dan: And now do you carry the ethnic customs in everyday life that you brought over from the native land? Michael: Yes, I think so. The younger generation, they don’t—there is no question of that—but where the family is…and they think of their past heritage, what they had in Europe…you can’t take that out of them. Dan: No. Michael: Any more than we could take the Irish out of you. Dan: That’s right, that’s right. Michael: And we feel the same way. And that is the reason that I’m playing there yet. You can’t get anybody that can sing and play the Slovak languages at the same time. Dan: Right, right. Michael: That’s about the only reason. I love my work very, very much. Dan: Well, I’m glad that you are keeping active. Anna: You still go to the old customs of Christmas and everything? Michael: Yes, [inaudible]. And my daughter, she teaches in MacArthur School, and she graduated from Marywood. Her Bachelor’s Degree, and her Masters Degree was from Ithaca College. She teaches 7th and 8th grade in MacArthur School, and Michael, my son, he is studying in Catholic University. Here is his picture when he was in the Navy—pianist for the Navy, and accompanist, and also a concertmaster. So he's got his B.A. in—the, ah, Catholic University. He got his Masters in Composition, and now he is working for his Doctorate. But he’s got— Mrs. Harendza: Perpetual student Michael: He’s got maybe one or two visitations left, and maybe one or two concerts. [pause] Well, I told you. Well I got a couple of nice sins I have [laughs], and I won’t admit that to nobody. Dan: We are not in a position to forgive you those, so you better tell those to a priest. [laughs] Anna, is there anything else that you'd like to add? Michael: Did I cover the ground pretty good? Dan: Very, very good. What ethnic customs do you carry on in your everyday life, Professor, you still carry on in your life? Anna: Yeah. Mrs. Harendza: Well, like Christmas Eve, and things like that. Michael: We have the traditions. Anna: You still go for the old tradition over the, ah— Michael: We have the old tradition. We say our Grace in Slovak for each meal, and—naturally, being here so long already, they are more Americanized. They haven’t the love of the past that I have, because I was born there, and that’s why I am so loyal to that. But I want you to know that the people of St. Cyril’s treated me wonderful. They gave me a chance. Now I had the chance to go to St. Patrick’s as organist, and several other good prominent churches, but I couldn't—Father said, “You would get three times as much as I give you.” “Father, when I was as green as green could be, you accepted me, the Franciscan Fathers accepted me, and our Slovak people accepted me also,” because I had a good voice and I was able to sing anything. I said, “Now that I got my credentials, I could go flying wherever I want.” Anna: Professor, you know what I wanted to tell you. When I told somebody that I am going to interview you, they said, “Please tell the professor that there'll never be another one like him.” Michael: Well, you see— Anna: That’s right—I agree. Michael: [inaudible] Mrs. Harendza: Yeah, but you don’t really meet that kind of organist these days. Dan: No you don’t. Not one that is dedicated, that—you got fine memories. Michael: We used to have five hundred children in the school, they would march in every morning to the school—you’ve seen them, Anna. Anna: Yeah. Michael: [inaudible] We had those big masses, you know, and they’d get all the schools together, and I was the district manager and director. [inaudible/crosstalk] This would happen once every month. Anna: Thank you, Professor Harendza. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Harendza Subject The topic of the resource Harendza, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Musicians -- Interviews; Organists; Slovak Americans Description An account of the resource Michael Harendza talks about his family's emigration from Storocin, Czechoslovakia and the conditions of the boat they took from Hamburg to Ellis Island and then their experience after arriving in America. They were placed in Binghamton, NY where he and his family learned to make do with little money. He talks about his first piano teacher, Cecil Masten, dropping out of school to take care of his mother, and singing in choirs and playing the organ to make money. He discusses his continued training as an organist and the variety of church jobs he held, as well as, concerts he participated in and the students he taught music to. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 32 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Harendza, Michael ; Caganek, Anna ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1977-12-15 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 48:03 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7de22e694bb21a5f6e7a43dfcb9a779d.mp3 bce9c63c7d9128252c4e4bf8abefc29e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8881fcd0ab9d15c042aaef388c0b889e.mp3 544e6fe8a1a040be96df98f7592d9782 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hanifin, Michael J. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1977-12-13 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 45:25 Minutes ; 40:27 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55934">Interview with Michael J. Hanifin</a> Subject LCSH Hanifin, Michael J. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Police -- Interviews; Cigar industry; Prohibition; Endicott-Johnson Corporation; Willis Sharpe Kilmer; Binghamton City Mayor; Charles Kress; Stickley Furniture; Crandall, Stone & Co. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Michael J. Hanifin Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of interview: 13 December 1977 Dan: This is Dan O’Neil: interviewer. And I am interviewing Michael J. Hanifin. 95 Murray St, Binghamton, New York. Mike is a former police chief here in the city of Binghamton. The date is December 13, 1977. Mike, being a retired police chief in the City of Binghamton, tell me about your life and experiences in the community. Michael: Well, I was born on Pine St. At the age of one year, my parents moved to Liberty St, where I lived and went to the Robinson St school. I graduated from the Robinson St school. The high school, but did not go all, went to work instead at Crandall Stone's on Court St at the salary of $4.50 a week. I got a raise, I believe at $6.00, before I left there and went to Stickley’s and Grant Chair Factory, where I took a job as stock clerk and in a little over a year I was superintendent of the finishing department. Well I was making $1500 a year then, straight time, but the police department was the only place where they had a pension system, and thinking of the old days, I decided to take the examination. I turned the job down three times because I'd have to take a cut in pay of about 50%, and also work seven days a week. So in 1917 I decided to apply and was appointed. I worked six years as a patrolman on duty and two years on a motorcycle when I was appointed Sergeant, and a couple of years later, I was appointed Captain, and, ah… the title was changed to Assistant Chief at a later date, and then finally in 1942 I was appointed Chief of Police. In regard to my appointments, the examinations I took, I passed first for Detective, first for Sergeant, first on the list for Lieutenant, and first for Captain, and of course the only three jobs I was appointed to was Sergeant and Captain. The wages of a patrolman was $65.00 a month, and they deducted, ah, your pension payments from that amount. You had to work a year in order to get two weeks vacation. In other words, I worked 17 months before I was entitled to pick a vacation due to the old men picking first. That, as I say was, in 17 months that was the first night I had off duty—all night work and the only assistance you had was a police whistle. If you got in trouble you had to handle it yourself—no police boxes, no radios or any of those things they have today. The most important case that I was involved up—involved in, rather—was a holdup of the streetcar place on the upper State Street, when three holdup men with guns held up the place around 3 o'clock in the morning and got part of the day’s receipts. So I was just getting through duty when the call came in and, ah…I, ah, ordered them to get four or five officers from their posts and I—one officer earlier had seen a car parked on ah Thorpe Street, so with the other officers I went down there and I went to the door. There was a light in the house, it was a twin house and I ah rapped the door. The lady came and she said, I asked her, "Is there any trouble around here?” and she said she was setting up with a sick baby, but she insisted on me going up and see the baby, which I did. I asked her who lived in the other part of the house and I believe it was her father-in-law. So then we started knocking at that door—it was a bitter cold morning, December 15th and, ah, I had the officers placed around the house at important points, and all of a sudden I went out to see if there was any footmarks in the snow leading into the house, when all the lights in the house went on and the officers called from the side to me to come around, and as I was going by, I saw they had one of the holdup men in the kitchen sitting in the chair and the officer standing over him with a gun, and then I went around to the rear and here's two more of the holdup men coming out of the cellar with their hands over their heads. So, in my opinion, it was a very very important arrest. There was two unsolved holdups in the city—the Kroehler Manufacturing payroll and the Gotham Shoe payroll—and out of that arrest, they cleaned up both of those incidents, and, ah, while the officers was going by the cellar window where the men were, they saw them with their guns in their hands and they hid three revolvers in the cellar. So I took them to the Police Station, where I questioned them at some length and they, they sent two officers over to search the cellar and they found the three guns up in the rafters of the cellar, and, ah, in the course was locked up and, ah, District Attorney Gold was elected to take office the first of the month, and that morning he started on December 15th, and the men were tried and convicted, but in my opinion in my 46 years in the Police Department and I believe in the history of the Police Department, that was probably one of the most important arrests that was ever made. Dan: That was in what year, Mike? Michael: 1933, I believe. Dan: 1933. Michael: Yeah. Dan: That was…you mentioned a streetcar holdup. Michael: Yeah, but the streetcar—they had the day’s receipts. Dan: Oh, I see. Michael: That, the barns up there and they, you know where the streetcars started out, where State Street, up there by the garbage place, and, ah, as I say, in those days when I was appointed Sergeant, there was no such things as cars like they have today. The Sergeant went to work at eleven thirty at night and the particular night shift, the officers went to work at eight and got through at four. Well, as a Sergeant, they used to take a different route each night, but the only assistance I'd get was a ride when I’d take the streetcar up to the East End to start and get out near East Junior High School, see the officer in that area, then I'd have to walk over to Chenango Street up as far as State and Chenango Streets, then I'd see them between there and the viaduct. I had to see two there—they alternated on the corner there, one would walk around his post one hour while the other stayed there, then the other would do the same thing the next hour. Then I'd have to walk over to Clinton Street, see two officers over there, and then from there down to Glenwood Avenue and Clinton Street, see the officer there, then across the Main Street and walk up and generally see the officer there at ah Main and Jarvis, and then from there up to Main and Front Street where they alternated there, one walking around his post one hour while the other one was on the corner, then I'd have to go over town, walk over into the 5th Ward, see the officers there, then up to the 6th Ward, see one there near Crowley's Milk Plant or in that area generally, and from there over to Liberty and Court and see the officers there, and down through Court Street and see the officers on the different corners. Then I'd have to do that before 3:30 in the morning and then I'd have to take the officers that was going out to their posts, while there wasn't too many then, maybe a dozen officers—the most of them were on nights. Then I would have to go around and see them on their posts before reporting off duty. If I had a car like they do today, I could do most of it in an hour and a half. Dan: Did you have to walk all that distance? Michael: Walk it. Dan: Didn’t you even have a bike? Michael: No, no, walk it. And seven days a week. Dan: No days off? Michael: No, no days off. You got two weeks vacation and you had to work a full year before you got it. Now, today they allow you so much for so many months you work, you know, in that first year. And they get a month and a week for holidays or so as I understand it—why, there’s no comparison. One of those, why and I must say that officers in those days demanded respect. There’s no young hoodlums walking around up to them and saying, “Oink, oink,” like there is today and getting away with it. No wonder there's no discipline. Dan: You were Sergeant at the time you had to go make all those calls? Michael: Yes, yes. Dan: And that was what year, Mike? Michael: Oh, I was appointed Sergeant in 1925. Dan: 1925. Michael: And I passed First for Detective, but the, the Commissioner has a choice of the first three, and, ah, a fellow named Casey got it but—which was all right, he was on a long time—he was friends of, to pick any of the first three. Then I passed First for Lieutenant, but in the meantime they were changing Chiefs when Hunt was Chief, and, ah so they ah appointed Abel to Captain, Chief, and to my surprise they sent for me one day and said, “We might as well do this all at once—we're making you the acting Captain.” I was first on the Lieutenants list, but they didn't appoint me because they intended to appoint me Captain, and as a matter of fact I was working as an acting Captain drawing a Sergeant's pay, and I was over the Lieutenants was drawing more pay than I was. That’s the way it was—you had to be appointed permanently before they gave you the money—today they make you acting, they pay you the money. So as, ah—was appointed Chief in 1942, and, ah, Chief Abel took a position with Remington Rand when they came here and started a plant in Johnson City, and he took over the protection duties down there, and, ah, then I worked from then until I was 70 years old, when I retired. Then of course in those days, ah, ah, we had of course naturally the petty little places where workers used to go to gamble, but never know that gambling as they’d try to make it out one time, and, ah, I know places where the so-called big shots were gambling, but you never hear any complaints about that—but the poor working man, why, they raided the place, you put the players in too in those days. And then as far as disorderly houses, there was one on Wall Street, and I wouldn't want to mention some of the guests that they had there cause it would surprise most of the people in the city. Dan: Was that run by Dora Warren? Michael: Yes. and, ah, I used to have to question them after we marked the bills and give them to what we call the stool pigeon to go up, to go in there, and then the police matron would take money from the girls when they'd be brought to the Police Station, and when you showed them the numbers on the bills, they knew they were sunk and they'd generally admit. Dan: Were you on the force, Mike, when there was a troop? The troop was here from either the CCC or else they were training here for some reason or another, and they, one of the fellas robbed Dora and they had to call the Police. Could you tell me about that? Michael: I don’t remember too much about that. They raided it while they were here, I know, but the details—why, it’s been so long ago. They were camped up there, I believe up near Deforest Street for a while, but ah, at the time I know there was, you know, an interesting story, but I cannot for the life of me remember the details. But, ah, to me that was one of the most disgusting things that I had to do, was to be questioning those, because I could not see them at all—no how. Dan: Now, during Prohibition days, Mike, what about—did you have to conduct many raids or anything? Michael: Yeah, ah, they had a vice squad that would raid now and then, but, ah…they always had places, naturally. That was a law that never should have been passed, the Volstead Act—and get arrested, but they would be right back in business again. Dan: What are your recollections about the Chapman Hotel? Are you acquainted with that? Michael: Well, ah, that was quite a place, ah, but ah it was just working people went there—they, you know, at the corner of Liberty and Henry Streets. And then later one of the Chapman boys owned the hotel, it was the old McDonald Hotel on Lewis Street. Dan: That’s the one I have reference to. Michael: and, ah, as I understand it, they did pretty good, but I cannot remember anybody that was in the bootlegging game as they called it—even those who was supposed to make quite a sum of money—that didn't die broke. Not a one. I can’t remember one that really, you know, so there must be some curse to the liquor. and, ah, also there were several of them on the North Side—their wives died young. It seemed that there was a curse to it. I don't know what it is, but ah I’ve known too many cases, you know, where they all had hard luck. Dan: I know they used to refer to it as 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock Mass up at the Chapman Hotel, and they thought the Irish used to go to church up there. Michael: Yeah, years ago, too, you know, when—well, even before Prohibition, they had a ladies’ entrance, you know, to most, you know, “high class places,” they'd call them that—ah, the lady would look up and down the street for 5 minutes and then duck in. You know, she'd be so ashamed to go in there—today they go right in and push the men away from the bar. Well I, in those days it was a rare thing even to see any promotions in the Police Department. The superior officers, they'd work until they were ready to drop dead, and they were all fine husky men and as I say you work all night on the post—wherever you lived, you had to walk home in the morning at 4 o'clock, so you got plenty of exercise, and as I said before, the only real protection you had was a whistle. If you got in too much trouble you might blow that, somebody might hear you—and phones were scarce. There wasn't too many in a particular neighborhood, but somebody might call the police station and ask for help, but that’s the only way. Today they have radio, walkie-talkie and all the different communications. Dan: When were firearms first introduced for the policemen? What year? Do you know, Mike? Michael: Oh, of course they were. They had always…I imagine they always had firearms. Dan: Well you mentioned that all they had was whistles on the beat for protection. Michael: Oh, they had firearms too. Yeah, I mean like having another officer there like they do now, come in the car and what have you. Oh they always had firearms, always you had the firearm, but I mean that without using your firearm, I mean the only protection you had for the calls for assistance would be a whistle. Dan: I see. Now you had an affiliation with Bob Stephenson on the Detective Bureau? Michael: Well, Bob had retired a year, I think. I knew him real well before I got there. Yeah, he was quite a detective. Dan: Now you, ah, mentioned Crandall & Stone, where your first job. What were conditions there? What did— Michael: They made automobile hardware. Dan: Automobile hardware. Michael: Yeah, I finally got a job, that is what they call a promotion there. They have about 2 days a week, or 2 afternoons, rather, where you would, ah, what they call Japan, ah, brass nuts what were on bolt sockets—they had touring cars. You got a cent and a half for doing a gross, on piecework. And as I say you really had to work—the boss was right over you all the time—although I enjoyed it. I used to see how much I could do, but ah, how strict they was at night. The whistle blew and I forgot my cap. There was another young fellow named Griffin that lived near me on Liberty Street, and he was in the packing room, and I used to run out and get him and walk across the tracks home, but forgetting my cap, I had to go back after it and here's this big boss standing there and I'm running on my own time, and he gave me the devil. He says you run here in the morning the same way when the whistle blows. I said if they did that to an employee today, they'd have him locked up. Dan: Now what about Stickley’s? Now they were manufacturing what? Michael: Furniture. Dan: Furniture. Michael: Yeah. Dan: Is that a forerunner of Kroehler’s, now? Michael: No, no, Kroehler’s came later. They were up at Abbott Street. Levinsons bought Stickley’s out, but they later went out of business, and— Dan: What did you do at Stickley’s, Mike? Michael: Well at Stickley’s I thought I’d learn upholstering, but then this job came up, ah, stock clerk, and they asked me if I’d like to take it, and I did, and in no time at all I was superintendent of the finishing department. I was boss over fellows that was working there before I was born, at the age of 19. Dan: But the reason you went on to the Police Department was because of the pension plan— Michael: The pension, yeah. Dan: —and you were appointed in 1917? Michael: Yes, yeah. Dan: Were there Civil Service Exams then? Michael: Oh yes, yeah, yeah. The Commissioners then, I can remember Bennett, Brown, and Barnes—the three B's—and Frank Truitt was Mayor, and, ah some people thought he was narrow-minded, but he was one of the finest fellas that ever was. That Truitt—you know, that Truitt Shoe Company?—a very fine man. In those days, the people that worked officially at City Hall like Councilmen—they were generally businessmen. They didn't do it for the money, they did it for the good of the City, but at one time on the Common Council was Tom Behan, President of the 1900 Washer; Ed Sweet, ah, who with his brother owned Sweet Foundries; Romey Whiting, East End, who owned the feed mill; John Delavan, who operated Titchner Iron Works; Michael Sweeney, who owned half of Davie & Sweeney Laundry; Dr. Maddi. Them type of men, you know, were Councilmen. Dan: Very prominent. Michael: And when you went up there to spend 10¢, you better show them you were going to get 11¢ in return—not like today. Dan: Now you, ah, recall the Overall Factory Fire? Michael: Oh, yes. That happened on my 20th birthday. And, ah, I let the fellas go home early that day. Ah, a fella named Benchley was Treasurer of Stickley & Grant, and he came back at once, told us about the terrible fire downtown. My sister at the time was working at Hull's Cigar Factory—she was what they called a roller, you know, roll the cigars. That was about a block away. She saw some of the poor victims falling from the fire escapes—you know, the blazing, the fire blazing around them. It was horrifying, but I didn't see it ‘til after. You know, when the fire was out. I went down later. Dan: That was located where, Mike? Michael: On Wall Street. Dan: On Wall Street. Michael: Next to the Post Office. Dan: Post Office. Michael: The Post Office was on the corner in those days. It was a terrible thing, happened on my 20th birthday. Dan: You were…let’s see, on the Police Department at the time? Michael: Oh, no. I was a boss in the chair factory. Dan: Oh, you were a boss in the chair factory. Michael: Yeah. And, ah, as I say, I let the fellas go home early,. They wanted to go down because it was something unusual. Yeah, and it was a terrible, warm day. Terrible…I can remember that. Dan: Now you mentioned your sister. Now, which sister worked in that tobacco factory? Michael: My oldest Sister. She's a year older than I am and her name's Conrad. She lives in our old homestead on Liberty Street yet. Dan: On Liberty Street. We're trying to find out as much as we can about the tobacco factory. Were you acquainted at all with her job in the Hull's tobacco factory? Michael: No, that was there at the corner. This was quite a tobacco center in those days. Dan: Oh, it was the tobacco center of the world at one time. Michael: They had General Cigar on Wall Street, they had Hull’s at the corner of Water and Henry, they had Kent’s on Chenango Street—my father worked there, next to where the Greyhound Bus is today—and they, ah, had another one, I can't remember the name, up at the corner of State and Chenango Street, and then on Water Street they had Barnes, that later got the Red Dot Cigar out, and they built an addition or rented a place over on Clinton Street. They did such a business there, but it all seemed to fade away, you know, at once, and also the furniture factories. The only thing left around here, they had Stickley & Grant where I worked, they had Binghamton Chair on the other side of the factories, and they had cine or two small ones down at the end of Carroll Street there, and there’s nothing around today, and as I say, in those days and then EJ had two trains leaving the Erie Depot every morning taking employees to Johnson City and Endicott. They’d make stops on the west side, at Oak Street and Jarvis, and then they'd come back every night at 6 o'clock and they'd park all the railroad cars down near Liberty Street and, ah, jeepers. One night, this same fella that worked over later—the Griffin fellow, we both were selling even newspapers then, and we used to take the EJ train down as far as Liberty Street and walk up to our homes. And there was a train #14 that was late this night, and the kids was fooling around, and he thought he was getting on the EJ train. Gets on and he's laughing away that he got away from the other kids, and they went by Liberty Street, hell bent for election—took him to Susquehanna! and, ah, as I say, EJ at that time was employing around 20 or 25 thousand people, and how those people used to get up early in the morning to be down there and then late at night, and I believe they worked 6 days a week—I worked 6 days a week at Stickley’s. 10 hours a day. Dan: You don't know what year Stickley’s went out of business, do you, Mike? Michael: No, no. I really can't. Dan: But they were furniture manufacturers. Do you suppose Kroehler’s bought them out? Michael: No, no, I remember when Kroehler's came here…and, ah, when they built it. There was, ah, a fellow in charge of the finishing department, you know, came over to see me—I was working at Stickley’s, you know, and I knew him. They were quite an outfit there for a while. ‘Course a lot of things have been improved upon, like at Stickley’s. One thing about Stickley’s, the furniture was 100%—if it was oak, it was 100% oak. It wasn’t veneered. And of course naturally they had to get a price, you know, we couldn't with their costs and their profits, and the other factories’d come out and put a veneer on the front. To the ordinary purchaser, one looked just as good as the other, but one was much cheaper, so that competition got pretty tough—that was the Mission furniture and, ah, the brothers, the Stickley Brothers up in East Syracuse. They were quite an outfit, and then later, ah, Stickley out of there, his son has the Stickley photograph place there on Carroll Street. Dan: That’s still going. Michael: Yeah, yeah. Dan: They moved over, of course, to the Vestal Plaza. Michael: You remember Carl Stickley? Dan: No, no I don't. Michael: He was a cripple or something—I forget what was the matter with him, but he did all right, he certainly did alright. Dan: Mike, if you worked seven days a week, what did you do for recreation? Michael: Oh boy, I’m telling you, you didn’t go out nights running around like they do today, don't you know. What a change, that's what I say, of course, ah, the inventions and everything, they'd make things easier to build and manufacture. Some of these persons I say, a lot of people I talk to, I wish for 6 months that this entire country could be put back to those early days and have them work the way they had to work, save the way they had to save like the other things, and then they would appreciate, you know. Now of course, when I was a kid, I thought the only time they had eggs was at Easter. As I say, if you got up in the morning— [interruption—someone at the door] Dan: You were born, brought up on Pine Street? Michael: I was only a year old when they moved up, ah, on Liberty Street. Dan: Oh, from Pine Street to Liberty Street. Michael: Yeah. Dan: And how was Pine Street in those days? Of course, you were a little young at the time. Michael: They were fairly nice neighborhoods, you know, for ordinary folks like my parents, were immigrants from Ireland, hard working, and one thing I'd like to say—all the people were alike. They were just ordinary people, and someone, once in a while, would have hard times, be out of work or in debt, have you. There was no such thing in those days as relief, and I'm just as sure as I'm sitting here, if there was such a thing as relief, they wouldn't accept it because they'd think it’d be a stigma for the rest of their lives. And in addition, then what they would do, they would take in washings and wash and iron clothes—a large basket for a dollar and a quarter, and there was no electrical appliances then, like electric washers or—it didn't make much difference how much money you had, and they would scrub those clothes on a washboard, and boil them, and then hang them out to dry, and then iron them, and they'd do, as I say, a large basket for a dollar, or a dollar and a quarter. That’s what some of these people should be made to do today, also. Dan: Right. Michael: They could learn the value of the dollar. Dan: That’s right. Now, were there mostly Irish up there on Liberty Street at the time? Michael: Yes. It seems peculiar—like on Pine Street and Henry, there was almost all Irish extraction at one time, and, ah…then the Italians came and they moved in there, and the Irish moved up on Liberty Street. They got along all right, they were all fine people, both the Italians and the Irish, but that’s the way. Then over in the First Ward all the Slavic, Lithuanian and other ethnic groups moved over there, very fine people, and always kept their homes up nice, you know, worked hard, and worked, most of them in the shoe factory, and they made real good citizens. But I don't know, the way things are today, and then there was Jewish people would be down around, ah, Susquehanna Street and South Street. They'd be rag pickers, they'd have a horse and truck going around picking up bones and everything, and some of them men were the fathers of some of the finest lawyers that was ever, you know, in the City of Binghamton. Dan: Sure, sure. Michael: And, ah, there was Jake Smith that I could remember him—he was a fruit peddler and he'd tell the policemen he'd leave his cellar, he'd leave the door open, he says, “If you want something during the night,” he says, “you go down and help yourselves.” About 3 o'clock in the morning sometimes you could go down, get a piece of pineapple and stand at the corner of South Street all by your lonesome nippin’ on it. Oh I'm telling you, believe me, when that Sergeant came around in those days you’d better be there. Dan: Was Charlie Kress in office at the time that you were on the Police Department? Michael: Oh, Charlie Kress, you know, ah, he was a peculiar individual, but he was a very bright fella and he thought at one time that I was giving news to the Scrantonian, which used to write him up once in a while, and, ah, so one time he changed me—I was Assistant Chief then—he put me in from midnight ‘til eight in the morning. He couldn't take me out of circulation entirely. He told Abel he'd have to work from eight ‘til four, and Sheehan from four ‘til midnight. I went looking for him one night when he was Mayor. Had a little Model T Ford in the Police Station then, and the first two times I went around in front of City Hall, I could see him in there, he'd even be in there at night, and there was cars parked, so I couldn't stop and I kept going around the block, and the third time around, it was in darkness and I looked over and I see him walking up the street—no hat, you know—in front of Resnick’s. I pulled up in front of the Courthouse—that Model T, I don't know, somebody knows if it stopped when I got out of it, because I couldn't, and I went over and said, “I want to see you.” Well him and I went at it, he walked away from me, you know, and over to the Courthouse, and me right after him, he finally threw up both hands—says, “Work any hours you want.” And, ah, from that time on, I never had a better friend. Oh, I had a great letter out here, but some way the Chief'd read it, boy could he write a letter. And, ah, one time he was running, and of course some of the politicians didn't like him too well. And, ah, of course the Sun supported him but the Press was against him, and, ah, he put a piece in the Sun one morning—he says if there was a skunk under a porch and you threw the Binghamton Press in there, the skunk would come out. He was a smart cookie, believe me. Dan: Yeah, he was. Michael: And he got more, in my opinion, for every dollar spent out of City employees than any Mayor in my memory, and I remember a lot of them. He had a way about him, and down in Washington, he had friends in both parties. He was really clever. Dan: Now, the Police Department at one time used to wear the uniforms like the Bobbies in England. Michael: You mean with the helmets? Dan: Yeah. Michael: They got rid of them just before I went on. That's one thing I didn't want to wear, that large helmet. Yeah, they just got rid of them just before I went on. But boy, not bragging, maybe with an exception here and there, policemen in those days were real, good, dedicated, and believe me they commanded respect. There was nobody went up to them and said, “Oink, oink,” and got away with it. Dan: That’s very interesting, Mike. Michael: In fact, I got a book here, not in 1925—it was just before I was appointed Sergeant. Get that off for a minute, I just want you— [Michael leaves the room to get a book] Dan: I want to watch this [tape recorder] for a minute, so it won't run down. [tape resumes] Dan: Do you remember Willis Sharpe Kilmer and the Sun Briar Court on— Michael: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah. Dan: Could you tell me a little about that? Michael: Well, nothing. Only it was quite a place where they bred horses and what have you. And, ah, I know I was on the motorcycle—they invited me down there one day, but ah, yes, I remember when George Ely was the Secretary. Yes I remember Willis Sharpe’s father. He'd come—the Press was printed right up at the corner in the Swamp Root building—and he'd come out of there night, and I'd used to sell papers a penny apiece. You get two for a cent and sell them for a penny apiece. He'd always give you a nickel for the paper, and he could have picked it up right in his office, don't you know. Dan: Right, right. Michael: He was a short fellow, but—Willis was a big strapping fella, but the father was short, and, ah they used to say they got the business away from the father's brother. [Tape #2] Michael: He was supposed to be the one that had the ingredients that went into swamp root, but don't know how the Father got it away but they manufactured up there, but then over in England also, but after a while over in England they made, you know, like you know in advertising, what have you, change their methods, and they finally sold out. I think some outfit that took it up in one of the New England states. But during Prohibition, some people used to drink that instead of the other stuff they used to be able to get. There was some Palmatier fellows, nice fellows, up there around Deforest Street that were bosses there—I remember my sister-in-law worked there. They made a pretty good dollar out of it, you know, when it was going. They used to tell the story, I don't know how true it is, that he was a good friend of mine, too, real good, gave me my first plane ride. I was always scared to death to ride a plane, and, ah, there was a local contractor here named Lawrence Kane, was a friend of mine, he was a friend of this Ralph Sweet and, ah, had Sweet’s plane up there at upper Glenwood Ave. He had that airport, and, ah, he offered me to take a ride and, ah, finally they asked me so much, I was a Captain then, and, ah, I said to Lawrence, I says if he wants to take me up to see my boy at Notre Dame, I'll consider taking a ride, thinking that'll be the end of it. So in a couple of weeks, he calls me and says, “You got a pencil?” I thought he was giving me a riddle or something, and I said, “Yeah.” He says, “Mark this date down: June 26th.” I says, “What about it?” “It's the day you're leaving this earth.” I pretty near left then. “He's taking me out to Notre Dame to see your boy.” Well we told Father Lynch, who was at St. Patrick’s, and, ah, “Gosh,” he says, “I'd like to take a ride.” Well Lawrence says, “I'll see if there'll be room enough,” and they told him yes. He told his mother and his mother put her foot down—no. “Well,” I says, “if I'm up there with a clergyman I'll be all right,” but when his mother said no, I thought sure we were going to come down. So I started out that morning with him—Lawrence picked me up, I didn't even tell my wife—I told her I was just taking a ride with Lawrence Kane. Then I went up to see my mother, Lord have mercy on her, and, ah, she said, “Where are you going so early?” I said, “just take a ride.”  We drove around Front Street and a black cat, and I made him stop the car and turn around–go around another street. So when I got up to the airport, the Sweet airport, all that feeling had left me, and he had his own private pilot. So we get in, he said to me, “We might come down in Cleveland to stretch our legs.” I said, “If we get me up there, stay there until I get out to something,” but after I got up there it got so monotonous, you know, going along, I was glad to come down in Cleveland. So we went out and we met—oh, ah, what’s his name?—Father Connerton, I think, and, ah, he took us around the University and showed it, and that afternoon, in the morning rather, my boy finished his studies for the year, so he asked Ralph, how about bringing him back home? So he asked the pilot if, you know, he'd be too heavy a load or anything. He said no, it'd be all right, so we brought him home with us. We left here around 7 o'clock or 8 o 'clock in the morning—I forget which. I went out there, we had lunch, went around the University, started back around 4 in the afternoon and, ah, left there, brought my son with me, and was to work that night at 7:30. So that was my experience, and Sweet always got a great kick out of, you know, telling of how he gave me my first plane ride. After that I’d have taken off right in the middle of the road out here, you know, the, I overcame that fear. Dan: That was quite an experience, Mike. That Sweet…what business was he in, Mike? Michael: Well he was, he worked in the Shoe factory originally, and I don’t know how he got in there. Several fellows around, they used to—they had medicine of some kind too over there, but I can't tell you what—but they used to tell the story, but I don't know how much truth there's in it. He used to have an ad in the paper—you could advertise anything in those days—says, “Send 10¢ and get a yard of silk.” They'd send ‘em a yard of silk thread. Whether that was true or not, I was never able to find out. But he, he really would, at times his knees was through his trousers when he’s going to work, but he was a millionaire afterwards. Dan: Yeah. Michael: And, ah, I was one of his pallbearers when he died. But he really got a great kick thinking of—oh, and then later he got a plane, was a Beechcraft, and, ah, I think he sold his to the Government. Then later, the wings was falling off some of them. Oh boy, was I scared then. Then he got a new one out, a smaller one, and he called me up one afternoon and he says we might as well go up, and we went around Watkins Glen and then we came down in Ithaca. It snowed or something, I forget now, but that day I got airsick, it was bouncing around like a rubber ball up there. Dan: Now he ended up in what business, was it Swamp Root? Michael: No, no. No, I don't know, I don’t know what he was interested, but he had, he had a lot of money. Dan: Dabbled into a little bit of everything, huh? Michael: I guess so, yeah. Dan: Was it his daughter that married one of the Johnsons? One of the Sweets married a Johnson. Michael: No, no. I'll tell you, where he lived at one time was in that red house on Walnut Street that sets back in with the big fence around there, for years there. And, ah, to tell you the truth, I really don't know exactly, but you know it was lots of businesses like Swamp Root, and didn't advertise anyway like that, but later on, they started tightening up later, but he had a lot of money all right, there was no question about that. Dan: Do you know of any reason why the cigar manufacturers kept dwindling down and eventually went out of business? Michael: I really don't know, I really don't know, unless it was like the General Cigar Factory came here and everything was like things are, like the machines, don't you know. Well you see, they made what they call bunches—that’s the inside of the cigar. It took two of them to keep my sister going. She was real fast—what they call a roller. They rolled, you know, the outside, and it was all done by hand, but the General I understand, you know, more mechanical, and I would imagine like everything else, making things by machines instead of by hand. Dan: Now your sister, Mrs. Conrad you said—where does she live? Michael: She lives in the old homestead, 99 Liberty Street. Dan: 99 Liberty Street. Do you suppose she would mind giving me her experiences in the Cigar Factory? Michael: Oh, no. Dan: You see we have very scant information about—we know about the cigar factories, but not the people that worked in them. 99— [interruption] Michael: Yeah, yeah, 99 Murray. Dan: 99 Murray—that would just be up the street here. Michael: No, 99 Liberty. Dan: Oh, Liberty. Michael: She's 86 years old. Dan: 86. Michael: Now I'm 84; I'll be 85 in July. Dan: Well, you're going strong, Mike; keep that lamp on. Michael: Oh, I got the back separated back there, and it’s, and it’s causing—last year I didn't feel any older than I was when I was 50. Now I feel like 150, and the doctor that operated on me, Dr. Gold, he said, “You're going to make 95.” I said, “Geez, I think he made a mistake.” I think he meant 9:00 that night. Do you know Dr. Gold? He's in with Wescott. Dan: Not personally. I've heard of him. Michael: Yeah, yeah. Dan: Well is there anything else you would like to tell me about the Police Department that sticks out in your mind at all? Michael: Well there's some things I could tell you, but they'd think I'd be bragging though—this isn't on, is it? Dan: This is on, yeah, but as far as bragging is concerned, this is not going to be published—it’s not for publication. Michael: No, no, but they’re different today than—it’s easier to find a law abider today than it is not, to tell you the truth. I get more complaints here than I did when I was working. Believe it or not, I know every move they make. Dan: Yeah, ought to get a police scanner so you can get all their calls. Michael: No, anything that plays, anything on television, I turn, I says, “I seen enough,” that—they tell us about three being in, down, two of us got to be in violation of the rules and regulations. Anyway, when you left the Police Station, you walked in those days, of course, you had to go directly the shortest distance to your post, as fast as possible. Stop in—ah, what’s that place? Woolworth’s—have coffee. I was there, too, when three of them would be on their way home, but especially two would be off their post, even. One of them of course would be working their post about 2 o’clock in the afternoon. They'd see three coming out of the building there on Court Street, where the bus starters have their room. Boy I’m telling ya, they're getting great money today really. Did you ever hear of any of them quitting and getting another job? Dan: No I think they’re starting out at 10 or 11 thousand dollars today, and a very good pension plan after 20 years. Michael: Oh yeah. Without bragging, the best, Sullivan, Gillen, O’Dea—his sister is married to my son. I bet I did more work than the three of them put together. Dan: Yeah. Michael: Sullivan, he sat around newspaper men, what have you—his wife’s more of a man, acts more like one, walks more like one. When in church, he'd be behind her like a little kitten. She’s put him into the pew. Fact, she was designed the uniforms, and after she got through, they threw them out, as I understand, around the locker room over there, ‘cause, like an Eisenhower Jacket. The taxpayers paid for that. When I went on you had to pay for your own uniform, you had it made by a tailor. You had to buy the cloth from the City, and I was the first one that got them a uniform allowance, $50.00. They'd have to grain that uniform, that’s their part, if it’s that’s replaced—into their Assistant Chief, and have them see it, get his permission, go and have it made and come back before he'd send it up there. Now I understand they're getting around $150 in January and $100 in July. I haven’t, I’m going to check up to see it. The taxpayers and the, eventually the renters too, had to pay that time then. Taxes for things like that, now like that. It's terrible, absolutely terrible. Dan: Well, back in the…after the repeal of the 18th Amendment, you used to get quite a few winos. Could you tell me something about when you used to take and, ah, put them up for the night at the Police Station down in the basement—the old Police Station? Michael: Oh they used to, the fellas came in like, ah—”lodgers,” they called them. Take their name down and release them in the morning. The poor fellas would go out and the first thing, they'd be looking for cigarettes and, you know, stubs that was thrown away. I’d have them even stop me in the street when I would be going to the office, you know, extend me for a quarter. Then I'd tell them who I was and some of them would pretty near drop dead. But I’d give the poor devils a quarter, don't you know. Dan: Didn't they have boards downstairs where they could—? Michael: Yeah, they slept on them, yeah, on the boards—even the prisoners slept on boards. Boy, I’m telling ya, and then as I say, not bragging, I'll bet you I got more statements out of more law violators for felonies than anyone in the 42 years that I was working there. Of course I wouldn't get away with it today. Dan: What were some of the principal violations in those days—breaking the law as far as Prohibition was concerned? Michael: Well, no, burglary and things like that, and you know, felonies. You know, if they could outtalk them it was OK, but the minute they started giving me snide remarks… The only time that I really come close to, ah, getting into difficulty—ah, Abe Gold, Dr. Maddi, and myself were like three brothers. Abe was District Attorney at the time, but they got a call one night over on the south side, and, ah I don't know whether it was a drugstore or what was being burglarized. When they caught the young fella, 24 years old, and, ah they brought him in to talk to me to question, to try to get a statement out of him. Finally he turned his rear end to me, then I got up and turned him around and I forgot my ring, and gee, I cut him over the eye here and couldn't take him to court for three days. Took him over to the hospital there. Dan: [laughs] Michael: When he got there, Richardson was the judge, and you know his southern accent. He says, “What happened to you?” Given his due, he says, “I was chopping wood and a piece came up and hit me,” but when he went home, he told his mother the true story, so she goes to the District Attorney. Abe says to her, “You’re lucky your son is not on his way to Attica.” So she was satisfied then, but that's the closest I’ve ever come. But you bet your life they generally signed faster, you give them, as I say, you couldn't get away with it today. Like some of these decisions—and they're split decisions too, 5 to 4—the Supreme Court made a short time ago. There was two officers went after a fellow in a neighboring state where they picked him up, and, ah he had killed a young girl, and on the way back, they were very nice to him, but they didn’t tell him that he didn’t have to say nothing unless he had a lawyer and all that. and, ah I’ll be darned, a 6 to 5 decision—I think it was that they threw the statement out, you know. I was going to write ‘em that time, but I didn't. I was going to say if I was in charge of a Police Department in the district where you're living, I'd leave orders there, if you or any member of your family called up and said that you were being attacked by these thugs, to tell you that we’re were busy and to take care of it yourself—making heroes out of them and that Kuntsler, that lawyer. Dan: You mean of the American Civil Liberties Union? Michael: Yeah, boy. I don't mind giving a person a break or two breaks, you know, if they’re entitled to it or something like that, but some of those thugs that’s out there that’s— Dan: Well they're protected, you know, with the Miranda. Michael: Well, they kind of doctored up that decision now, you know, it’s not as strict as, you know, just because they didn’t rap on the door or something. Dan: Yeah. Michael: They're sitting on the old perches out there, up there. They're not out there taking, you know, this stuff from these thugs. Dan: You were on the force when George Weslar was killed, weren’t you? Michael: Yes, yeah, I was acting Chief that time. Charlie Kress was Mayor. They called me here, ah, and went over there on Water Street, and I think that was the first time we ever used gas, and poor George, he was, he wasn't working, but this fella, I don’t know, was having trouble with his wife or something, but anyway, so George goes over and goes to go up the steps, and he was up there with a shotgun—killed him. Some other fella that was going with him, and he killed him too. Dan: That boy was going to school with me, I forget his name right now—he was from St. Mary’s. Michael: Is that so? And anyway, they called me over there, and finally Joe Varsick, the detective, you know, we shot the gas up in there so we figured, well, can’t be that he was escaping then because wasn't getting any response or from out back. Charlie even climbed the pole out there, Charlie Kress, and Varsick went up and he shot himself—the fellow, you know. Dan: Committed suicide? Michael: Yeah, yeah. But there was enough gas up there that he had been immobile, anyway. Yeah, I can remember that right well. Oh, there’s probably a lot of other places, but they don't come to my mind fresh now but ah, I see once in a while they put in the paper something I can never remember. They said, ah, Captain Abel and Sergeant Hanifin, how they raided a disorderly house on Court Street—I can never remember a thing about it, said later we both became Chiefs, you know, like that. Another time they had up there about me chasing kids off the ice near Rogan’s Mill up there, tell them if I catch them out again they'd go to jail. I couldn't remember it at all, didn't you know. You know, a lot of interesting things if a person could remember them. Dan: WelI remember the Chapman Hotel. They used to call 11 or 12 o'clock Mass down there—that used to be a scream, ‘course they'd be going down there. Michael: Yeomans—that’s how they appointed Casey, to tell you the truth. In those days they thought that they was—I have no definite proof, you know, of any acts of these—they used to call the little Brothers. But if you was a Catholic, you know, and Yeomans was Commissioner, see. Dan: Commissioner of what? Michael: Of safety. So ah, he ah, we had an examination in those days, they'd detail you to a job and they'd give you an allow for experience but they don't allow you today, or go in there either. So Casey got so many points on the examination for experience. “Oh,” he says, “so I am going to take it anyway.” I beat him by 5 points, even with his number first, so Helen Brick—do you remember her? Dan: No. Michael: Lived on Pine Street, she was a Commissioner's Secretary, and I'm on a motorcycle and I dropped in the office early on a Monday morning, and Kress didn't like me much—he had quite a piece. He got the tipoff on a Saturday’s paper that Yeomans was out of town, trying to put him in the middle. I knew Casey’d get it, even if he was, he had the right to appoint the first three anyway, and he told him about the civil service commission found me to be the best qualified and all this—a lot of blarney, not so much for me, just a lot of politics. So I came in on the motorcycle at half past nine Monday morning and Helen Brick walked down the hall to the main office. She says, “Congratulations.” I says, “Yeah, that’s all the good it'd do me.” She says, “Oh, he didn't appoint him already did he?” That’s what burned me up. I come over here and I never felt anything, but Dr. Day had me come in—my stomach was upset and he cured it, you know, upset stomach. I came over here and got a little drink, stick of gum in my mouth, back I'd go and I go into his office, and he says, “Mike, I was going to send for you,” and I says, “I came in to see about that job that I know the appointment was made upstairs.” Now he says, “I haven't got a thing against you, Mike.” ‘Course there was two or three made, well I always promised Frank that I would make him a detective and, ah I promised him, you know, he was a great one. [interruption] Michael: Before I got off these places, he was a death on boozer’s driving. Had me in front of Chapman's on Henry Street to make arrests if they had signs out, but never arrested anybody. They took me out of there and put me up to the Arlington Hotel and put Casey down there, you know, so to patrol something. Said to him, “Now, Commissioner, you tell me if it’s anything I've done, and I'll try to correct it—if you tell me if it’s anything I'm doing, it’s wrong and I'll stop it, but if it’s my religion, I'm doing nothing.” He says, “Here, here, here, and, ah so ah, you knew that,” says there'll be other examinations. I says, “You can't expect me to be passing first,” and it was, generally in those days there wouldn't be an exam. The guys would stick in there ‘til they dropped dead, you know, the old fellows, and, ah Kelly, this Sergeant, you'll see his picture in there, he was just able to shuffle along, you know—wouldn't have an examination. So I took it, and, ah Tommy Broughton was working in front of the Courthouse there, corner Chenango and Court traffic, when I'd go by in a motorcycle—stopped me one day. John McDonald, don't know whether you knew him or not, he was President of the Civil Service, and, ah he's got a kid that’s a lawyer with IBM, I guess he's down in Washington. One of his sons now is City Assessor. Dan: Oh, I know him. That McDonald, yeah. Michael: and, ah so ah, Ralph New, he was with McTighe’s grocers—the founder—and he stopped me, wanted to know if the papers been marked. ‘Course he took it too, so ah, yeah, said they're marked, but he wouldn't tell him who was ahead. He says it’s a smart redhead, he says was ahead. That’s all he told him, so Tommy stopped me, I said—of course his brother's hair was pure red, but my head was, you know, was never red—got a blond in it. I says, he says, “By God I think you're the one that’s on top,” and l sure enough I was. Jeepers, I got an old paper up there somewheres, you know there’s so much discussion about the thing right across the Sun, used to get out the Bulldog at night. Big headlines across: “Hanifin Sergeant.” You'd think I was President of the United States. Dan: The Bulldog was out on Saturday nights, wasn't it? Michael: Oh, every night. Dan: Oh, every night—a Special. Michael: Yeah, and I made him talk so much that day. I never, with my right hand up, I don't believe theres another one in the Police Department could say they never asked a politician or anybody to intercede for me in any way for any job. I knew they did, but not by asking them for me. They did it on their own or somebody else asking for them—I don't know, and, ah as I say, every examination I took, I passed first. Sergeant—first was Detective, Sergeant, Lieutenant, and Captain. Dan: When did they first introduce motorcycles in the beginning when you first went on the force? Michael: I think they were there before, I couldn't tell you, but they used to have horses when I was a kid. Had three horses, and, ah Lewis, Bucky Lewis was a cop then, Hillegas, and God I can't think of the other one. In fact, there was a murder up on Liberty Street one day, they was a couple of Italians, he was a nice fellow too, I often wondered, everybody thinks, it might have been named Maggio because he left here, he went out. I think that was his name, and he lived down near the Patch Pond, what they called it. There was a block there near Liberty Street, you go down the hill and there’s a little house down back, and he lived there and he worked on the railroad. But he had an argument with another Italian, and the Italian kept following him up to get rid of the party. He kept telling him to go back, and he showed him the gun—he had it, and the Roundhouse was there at Liberty Street near Eldridge, and just as they got there, he turned around and let him have it. Killed the guy. Up he comes and he’s coming up the street on a Sunday afternoon. The kid that lived in the neighborhood with me—I was 12 years old—his name was Dow, and there was a cemetery there on the corner of Eldridge and Liberty and it took in all of Wales Avenue all through there, and we run up in the cemetery when we see him coming up the street. It was a hot one. Pretty soon them mounted cops come, they drove the horses down the hill in to that house, but the guy was a nice citizen, you know, as far as that was concerned, but he got out of it. They didn't convict him, and when he left here shortly afterwards, he went to California. Lot of people thinks, you know, maybe he was one of Maggios or offspring from out there but I don't know, and that cemetery, we used to go down there as kids, pick coal along the tracks—people were poor in those days, you know. And there was an icehouse down there, and they used to cut, jug cut the ice in a patch pond, and they'd be taking the big cakes out and some pieces would fall, you'd put in your little cart and take ‘em home, and as I said before, there was no electric refrigerators. The rich people had to buy ice the same as the poor, but we only had those little chunks to put in ours, and the kids would pick up bones and sell them to the rag pickers. Oh, but the way things are today, why those people, as I, without being repetitious, I do not believe that anybody that lived on Liberty Street those are, if there was such a thing, which there wasn't in those days, as relief, that they would accept it. They'd think it would be a stigma the the rest of their lives, but today those people knock you out of the way up the stores coming out them, having a cab outside to come home in. So there is no incentive to work and save today, and if you do work and save then the government wants to take the money away in taxes. I just got a nice dividend from General Motors and I had to give $600 to the Government. They declared a nice fat dividend this year. Dan: Taxes amounted to 600 dollars? Michael: Yeah, they, years ago I had 200 shares, and God, I had to sell it, coming down. They kept calling me over to Baches and I finally had to sell 100 at a loss, and it went down, was only 100 I had left. I borrowed money off Mike Reardon, my brother-in-law, my mother, Lord have mercy on her, to keep that 100 I had left. I was in the hospital with a broken hip, was the only thing that made me feel good. It had split 2 for 1 before that and later, for every 20 you had, you could buy a share for $75, so I bought 10 shares which I was entitled for $750, and at that time it was selling for $94 so had 220 later, it split 3 for 1. No, 210 I had, split 3 for 1, so then I had 630 and I still held on to it. I'd have 1260 if I didn't have to sell that other. This past year, last year they paid 85 cents and they only made a nickel a share—they cut it down to 60 in one of the quarters, but the end of this year, they gave a dollar, which was 630 for regular dividend, two and a quarter extra. I got a check the other day for $2047.50. Dan: Wonderful, wonderful. Michael: Took me out of the red. Dan: How long have you lived here, Mike? Michael: Oh, I've lived here since I was married. I only lived in the three places—where I was born on Pine Street, on Liberty, and then over here, and when George was District Attorney, he was the one got me to buy this place. Dan: Dad was Assistant District Attorney. Michael: Assistant, yeah, and do you know what I paid down on this? $1300, and I gave, was it fifteen something? Dan: Now you say, Mike, you paid $1300 down on this. Michael: Yeah, and, ah the Binghamton Savings Bank had the mortgage five something, and then when ah Andrews was Commissioner, he liked me, you know, even to Frank Newell it take it over for five, and they they want to reduce the Savings Bank at that time, but he made arrangements with Newell to take it over, and, ah of course I paid it off some time ago, but I don't get within $30 or $40 of what I should be getting. ‘Course I get a break on the Veterans, but I should, like $135 is the highest I get here. About three years ago my gas used to cost me $800 a year, now they want $1848 to get it on the budget. Dan: ‘Course, the higher you put the rents, the more turnover you're going to get. Michael: Well that’s it, but you know at one time I had 5 widows, only one of them, your pardon, and the two of us—seven. Now there's, they're up there, and she has a lady taking care of her there and a man up on the top floor, he’s pretty good, used to take care of the apartments somewheres—he does a lot of work around here. Dan: Well, Mike, I certainly appreciate your taking your time. I’ll play this tape back for you if you'd like to hear it. I'd like to ask you one more question. You mentioned about a cemetery on the corner of Eldridge and Liberty—what ever happened to it? You were twelve years old at the time. Michael: Yeah, they dug the graves up, and a fellow named Lloyd, he lived on Liberty Street, old Lloyd had two sons—I forget their names now—and, ah when I was going to school at Robinson Street and I used to stand around. Some they only get a few bones out of there—everything had deteriorated and gone, you know what I mean, even the box. Dan: Do you know where they moved it to? Michael: Yeah, over to Spring Forest. Dan: Oh, Spring Forest. Michael: Yeah, they took everything out of there, and my uncle bought a lot at the corner of Liberty, and my father…Lord have mercy on both of them. My father bought a lot there, where the Bus company later had built a garage, and my uncle, he was ah, he was…ah, Jack Hanifin, they used to call him. There was three brothers, Mike lived on Henry Street—I was named after him—he was a grandfather to the Fire Chief that got drowned, and, ah he got wind they was interested in the garage, and he comes up and buys my father's lot off him, you see. And there was a murderer, I forget his name now, that was buried in the part where it was, up in the area where my uncle owned. Of course when they dug it down even with Liberty Street and all that dirt, but there was a murderer buried there, and, ah as I say, they made Water Ave and sold the lots out. There was only one row of houses on Robinson Street, and then there was two or three on Emmett, then all the rest of that area was cemetery. We'd go up there, as I say, and see it in little boxes, they put whatever they got in and then they took them over and buried them in Spring Forest. Dan: Right. A common grave, then? Michael: Yeah. Dan: I think over in Spring Forest is where all of the victims of the fire in the overall factory are. Michael: Yeah, they had services over at the Stone Opera House on a Sunday. Unidentified, don’t you know, after that fire. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael J. Hanifin Subject The topic of the resource Hanifin, Michael J. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Police -- Interviews; Cigar industry; Prohibition; Endicott-Johnson Corporation; Willis Sharpe Kilmer; Binghamton City Mayor; Charles Kress; Stickley Furniture; Crandall, Stone & Co. Description An account of the resource Michael J. Hanifin talks about his upbringing, neighborhood he lived in while growing up in Binghamton, local businesses, cigar industries, and Endicott Johnson Corporation. He worked at Stickley Furniture and Crandall, Stone & Co., before applying to join the City of Binghamton Police Department. He worked as a patrolman, Sergeant, Captain, Assistant Chief, and in 1942 became the Police Chief. He describes his experience working through the ranks in the police force. He discusses important arrests and cases that were particularly memorable to him. He mentions notable people such as Willis Sharpe Kilmer and Binghamton City Mayor, Charles Kress. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 31A; Recording 31B Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hanifin, Michael J. ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1977-12-13 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 45:25 Minutes ; 40:27 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f47d0e5b73bb5d65fe2d0e3fbaa7fd5f.mp3 386f7e04bf514426c5a9cfafac14db1c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/45ec1e7f01012ee3ed7ec53d4c179a4e.mp3 633094c42297d285387d7a16a60e1c3c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Perhach, Michael M. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1978-07-12 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 25:51 Minutes ; 6:25 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55995">Interview with Michael M. Perhach</a> Subject LCSH Perhach, Michael M. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Pharmacists -- Interviews; Albany College of Pharmacy; National Association of Retail Druggists (U.S.); New York State Board of Pharmacy; Junior High Pharmacy; Binghamton Exchange Club; Binghamton Recreation Commission; Kalurah Temple; Russian Orthodox Religion Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Michael M. Perhach Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo Date of interview: 12 July 1978 Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, talking to Michael M. Perhach of 17 Crary Ave., Binghamton, NY, on July 12, 1978. Michael, will you tell us about your life and experiences in the community? Michael: Where do you want me to start? Do you want me to start with my mother and dad, where they were born and everything? Good. My father was born in Varinov, Austria-Hungary on March 4, 1877 and he came to America in May 4, 1894a—went to American schools—went right to Wilkes-Barre and became a choir director in Wilkes-Barre in 1896—at the salary of twenty dollars a month. I happen to see some old notes here that he wrote about 65 or 70 years ago and I translated. It is written in the Russian language, very nice handwriting, and I translated it from the Russian to the English. He was ordained a Reader in 1905 by the late Patriach Tihon—ordained a deacon May 22, 1909—and the following day, May 23, 1909 he was ordained a priest by Metropolitan Platon of New York City in New York City. The reason he waited until 1909 he was serving with Archpriest Toth who was one of the first who accepted Orthodoxy in America. Father Toth was a priest in the Wilkes-Barre parish, at that time, and he made the remark at one stage, I know, my dad used to tell me that he said, "I don't want you to be ordained a priest until after I die." Well, Father Toth wanted him to remain to be as his psalomshchik or his choir director and reader. But, Father Toth died on May 9 and sure enough, two weeks later my father decided then to be ordained a priest. He received many many nagradi or promotions what we call for his services to the Orthodox Church. His first parish up in Canada—Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba. In fact, at the time he was ordained he had three children, my oldest sister, Alexandra, Nicholas and John - and my sister, Lydia, was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba and then from there we went to Jacob's Creek, PA. That's where I was born—that's some 66-65 years ago and from Jacob's Creek we went to Brownsville, PA. He had parishes at, then, at Bayonne, NJ, and finally in Binghamton, NY, where he had his last parish—when we came to Binghamton, NY, why, that is the reason why I am in here. I came to Binghamton back in 1927. My mother, however, was born in America—was born in Wilkes-Barre Sept. 26, 1887. She just passed on last November at the age of ninety. My dad passed on will be 25 years this August, August 29. I started to talk about my dad's various promotions, now he received the Bereda, soft Bereda in 1916, then the hard Bereda or the kamilavka, as we call it, in 1917 and became an Archpriest in 1925 and he received a Palitza in 1938. The Palitza is one of the great honors given typical profound zeal for faith and for work for Orthodoxy and is conferred on the record, more or less on the record of honor. I told you, I have two brothers and two sisters and I am the youngest of all of them. We came to Binghamton, of course, because of this parish. My dad then retired. I went to grammar school in Brownsville, PA, then we went to Mingo Junction. I skipped Mingo Junction, Ohio, where I went to grammar school—then we went to Bayonne, NJ—we were there for a period of nine months. I went for one year of high school then came to Binghamton in 1927. I had two years of high school here, graduated from Binghamton Central in the year of 1930. I stayed out of school a year—in fact, I worked at the Carlova Perfume Factory and while working at the perfume factory—why—my dad wanted me—first he asked—if I wanted to become a priest. I said, "No," I said, "I'll think about it"—although I was close to the church—and all—I was directing the choir at the church when I was fifteen years old and I had a fairly good voice, so, I was singing in the choir, also. My dad said, "All right, stay out of school a year and then decide what you want." In the meantime, my uncle, John Yosack, in Wilkes-Barre was a undertaker. He wanted me to be an undertaker, so, I was to choose between an undertaker and a priest. Well, I stayed out of school a year—got a job with Carlova Perfume Factory and going to work at 7:30 o'clock in the morning till 4. One morning (winter) when I was going to work in the snow I decided, I said, “Well, this is not for me.” So, I came home told my dad–well, incidentally, my brother, Nick, was a pharmacist—”I think I will go into—pharmacy.”  The following September I went to Albany College of Pharmacy. In that time that was a three year course and I graduated Albany College of Pharmacy in 1934. I was born in Jacob's Creek, like I said, I was graduated from Albany College of Pharmacy in 1934. I came to Binghamton, naturally. I was living in Binghamton. I worked for one year and a half at the Junior High Pharmacy, at the time it was owned by Everett Crone—Crone Pharmacy and after year and half I bought the store, that's in 1936 in February. I've been in business—since 42 years or 43 years. I've been very active in the pharmacy profession. I was a member of Alpha Theta Chapter of Phi Delta Chi Fraternity. In 1949 I took a partner, Charles Jakaitis, we call him, Chick, as a junior partner. One time we had two stores, then three stores, then two stores and now, we just have one store, Junior High Pharmacy. I was president of the New York Pharmaceutical Society in 1953 and 1954, I think it was, and was member of the Executive Committee for about 12 years, and then decided to go to the National Pharmaceutical Politics so, I was a member of the National Association of Retail Druggists Executive Committee became its president 1968-1969. The National Association Retail Druggists is a organization composed of independent pharmacies, some 32 to 35,000—which took me away from the business for a while—for a whole year—was making trips to various pharmaceutical state conventions and also to other meetings and all with the association. The headquarters are in Chicago—at the present time the headquarters are in Washington, D.C. I'm past president, I've also active with the Federated Russian Orthodox Clubs, commonly known as the "R" Club. I was president of the Federated Russian Orthodox Clubs in 1941-1942 for two years. I was also about three or four years later a member of the Metropolitan Council which is the council of the composed of a priest and three lay persons in the Orthodox Church of America. At that time, the late Metropolitan Theophilis was the Metropolitan. I was also active with the Exchange Club and a past president of Binghamton Exchange Club, past Exalted Ruler of the Elks No. 852 in Binghamton. In the city, I was on the Recreation Commission appointed by the late Walker Lounsberry some 30 years ago—I served on that commission for about 24 years, and four different times I was its chairman, active in many of the civic and community projects. I’m a member of the Binghamton Lodge Masons #177, Otsiningo Consistory and the Kalurah Temple (Shrine). Also, this marks my 50th year singing in our choir in the St. Mary's Assumption Church on Baxter street. Also, I sang with the Otsiningo Quartet for 10 years. I found in addition to this, I found time to run my business and all and I might say a very successful business. I have one son who is 26 years old now, like his dad, also, went to Albany College of Pharmacy—graduated in 1975—he's a licensed pharmacist and he is taking over most of the management of the business, now. Nettie: Michael, I think you wanted to add something to this— Michael: Yes, I married the former Julia Sabol on February 27, 1949. I mentioned we have one son, 26 years old. The story goes—I was married on February 27, 1949 and our son was born on February 21—that was three years later—I am happily married. Is there anything more you want to hear? Nettie: I was asking you what you think of the generics they are talking about these days. Michael: Well the generic substitution law, I think you mean, that went into effect April 1st. Nettie: Yes. Michael: Well, the generic substitution law was a law that was supposedly, a consumer-oriented law, hoping to save the consumers—pharmacy, drug—consumers—money. But, really, it doesn't work out that way. It is added a burden on a lot of pharmacies because they have to duplicate the inventory and it's true, some of the drugs you might be able to buy some of the drugs for $7.50 per 100, you can get a generic for $2.50. But there are good and bad generics. There are some generic houses, in fact, the health department came out with a book—a green book—about 30-40 pages, in which they said these drugs are permissible to substitute and yet, they are not obtainable. Manufacturers, we never heard of, some of the manufacturers—some of the "bathtub"—so-called "bathtub" manufacturers—now some of the drugs don't even dissolve in the system—they’re not absorbed in the system. And the reputable stores, like our own, we handle about 20-25 of the most commonly generic drugs. For example on the diuretic which would be Diuril—hydrochlorothiazide. We handle Park Davis, which is a reputable company, and there is a saving of about 1/3 on what you would pay for your regular brand of the Diuril. The same is true on Librium—chlordiazepoxide. We do have generics on that, and which is quite a saving—where the physician now on all these blanks he has a permission granted for generic substitution or not—if he signs on the left—you must dispense as written and if he signs on the right—then we must substitute. The physician is supposed to discuss this with the patient, of course, physicians are busy. A lot of them do, some do and some don't. However, if they do sign on the left we must dispense as written—if he signs on the right it's not our choice, it's not the customer, patient's choice, we must substitute—if its substitutable and if we don't have it in stock we just have to give the prescription back and have to go to a store where they can obtain it.  It brings to my mind, a man came in with crutches just got discharged from a hospital—he had a chipped bone in the ankle or so. He came in with prescription for a pain pill—the doctor said to substitute—at that time I didn't have a generic—cheaper generic—he said, “I'm in PAIN, I don't care what it is—I want my medicine—I'm not going to go from store to store." Well, I had him sign on the prescription, which is illegal, sign on the prescription, he said, "I’m in pain,” said, “I told the pharmacist to give me the brand drug"—which I did. It only cost him $2.50, how much could he have saved when the man is in pain? So, the generic law, really, isn't all what it ought to be—it has its good points and but it also has its bad points. Now there are some ah—ah—pharmacies, I don't think we have them in our county—somewhere in New York City and other cities who will use the cheapest drug and they still charge for expensive drug—that has been happening—we find that out time and time again. I'm a member of the New York State Board of Pharmacy appointed by Board of Regents. We had many many cases that come before us when we have—5%, maybe less than that, who ruin a profession like just like it’s true of any profession. There are less than 5% of the doctors are bad and 98% are good and that's true with the dentists or any profession—and it’s too bad that is true but it's happening—to be a fact way of life. But as far as the generic law—then the interpretation of the law when it was first passed, April 1st—the Board of Pharmacy interpreted the law to mean in the event we did not have the drug we can could give another, we can give the brand name. Well, Rosemary Pooler who was very consumer oriented, in fact, she is on the payroll, and a fellow by the name of Haddad who was on Assemblyman Stinegood's payroll and consumer oriented—they said, the Board of Pharmacy is trying to protect the pharmacist and not the public. So, with all of the ballyhoo they said it was not the intent of law, Assemblyman Stinegood said it was not intent so it was not written in the law right so, as long as it was not the intent—why we then interpreted that in the event we have a pharmacist does not have the generic—why then of course, they have to refuse the prescription which is a hardship on the consumer, themselves. But that is the way they want us to interpret. Now, if you have any questions on the law itself— Nettie: Michael, I think you covered pretty much about everything I asked you to. Is there something you want to add? Michael: Well, as I said I'm on the Board of Pharmacy and my term expires next June 1979. It is very interesting work and we have hearings in New York City and Buffalo—most of them are in New York City. It is very interesting—talking about three or four days a month. Incidentally, since the first of January, why we have two consumer members on the Board of Pharmacy and one of them happens to be Jim Staley, Legislature right here in Broome County and the other consumer member is a lady from down Long Island. They sit in with us, except they sit in with us on the Board of Pharmacy everything except with the Board Examination and all, which is of course they know nothing about. They, Board of Pharmacy, we do give exams for candidates, I think, this last June we had, it would be a shot in the dark, they had 800 candidates for Pharmacy. Pharmacy is now a five year course and after a pharmacy student, after third year they apply for internship and he had to have three months between his third and fourth year, three months between his fourth and fifth year at which he will be eligible to take State Board. The State Board is divided into three parts—Part 1-2-3. Part 1 is a written examination—a lot of it is multiple choice—that is made out by the State Education Department of Testing. Part 2, combination of laws and also pharmacy and pharmacology, and that is made up by members of the State Board. Part 3, practical application which you are actually in a laboratory all and it also has to deal with interaction—drug interaction, telephone prescriptions, anything pertaining to the practice, itself. Parts 1 and 2 can be taken without before you can take internship, immediately after graduation, but Part 3 you have your 6 month internship. If you pass your exam, you of course become licensed in the State of New York. Being licensed in the State of New York you, then after practicing for one year you can reciprocate with any state in the United States except Florida, Alaska, Hawaii or California—those are the four states. However, someone, like myself—I took the Florida board ten years ago—I'm licensed in the State of Florida, also by examination. Examinations are according to the candidates—seemed to be rather tough, but they're not—a lot of them pass and a lot of them don't. After all we have to—Board of Pharmacy, of course, for the protection of the health citizenship state—not for the protection of the pharmacist or for the students. Have you any other questions? Nettie: No, that's quite interesting, I think very much so. Michael, I just have one more question—I'd like to have you explain the differences in pharmacy, say 20 years ago or so and now.  Michael: Yes, it was quite different when I went into business some 42 years ago. At that time we used to make our own capsules and pills and powders. I used to make a lot of different solutions—some stores even made their own citrate magnesia—we'd make our alexo-phenobarbatal and all, and now of course we buy those in gallons—capsules and tablets in the hundreds or in thousands. We depend on manufacturers on these. At the time, of course, there weren't the number of drugs that we have now. Now we do have so many drugs and with all the new ones coming up chances of interaction is greater—what I mean of interaction is that you taking one drug and if the physician prescribes another drug why either will inhibit the action of this one drug and might in some cases cause death or bleeding. An example is coumadin, which is blood thinner—one person cannot take aspirin with coumadin because they will bleed more. There are cases on record where they have taken aspirin with coumadin where they bled to death. So, there's other interaction between various drugs that we have to know, the more drugs that we have the more naturally there is a possibility there are of interactions, that what our pharmacologists in various laboratories and various manufacturers have to contend with. When they come out with a new drug, the pharmacologists have to test it against all the drugs that are out to see whether there will be any interaction or any danger in taking the drug in conjunction with another one. Of course, the pharmacy itself is a pharmacist’s—the old drug stores, we knew it was a common meeting place where all people meet and everything and they carried all their first aid supplies in addition to lot of sundry items. Nowadays, of course, your larger pharmacies especially our chain stores they have everything, even paint, pickles and everything which, of course, I don't approve of—but we do have a lot of pharmacies that just do stick to the first aid supplies, prescriptions and over the counter items, drugs—but they do have good nice cosmetic outlets—also, good card section, good candy sections, boxed candy and all which of course goes with a neighborhood pharmacy, especially in all. So, the difference of course, in the practice of pharmacy is really changed, we counsel patients now where we did not before. Prescriptions, forty years ago, cost 35¢—you just ring it up, say goodbye, and that was it—and now the same prescription cost is $1.85 in all, but the pharmacists in most good pharmacies talk to the patient and ask them if they are taking any other drugs and warn them for example—tetracycline—you should not stay in the sun too long when you take any tetracycline, which is Achromycin—any tetracyclines. Also, penicillin should be given on an empty stomach either 1 hour before meals or 2 hours after meals—should not take any milk or any dairy product with tetracycline—least 1 or 2 hours apart and all these things—we counsel the patients and customers what to do where years ago that was never done. We’d talk to them and ask how the family is—but as far as discussing the drugs itself, why—it was not done, of course, with Labeling Act we have to label all our prescriptions now and everything is labeled and everybody knows the name of the drug that they are taking—so years ago why when we made four or five ingredients to make one preparation, one powder, why we could not label the drugs and say what was and all. That's about the difference then and now. Nettie: Thank you, Michael. Michael: You’re welcome. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael M. Perhach Subject The topic of the resource Perhach, Michael M. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Pharmacists -- Interviews; Albany College of Pharmacy; National Association of Retail Druggists (U.S.); New York State Board of Pharmacy; Junior High Pharmacy; Binghamton Exchange Club; Binghamton Recreation Commission; Kalurah Temple; Russian Orthodox Religion Description An account of the resource Michael M. Perhach talks about being involved with the church during his youth as his father was an Archpriest in the Russian Orthodox church. He talks about the many places his family lived before moving to Binghamton.  He graduated from Albany College of Pharmacy and operated the Junior High Pharmacy in Binghamton. He speaks of his involvement in the community organizations such as the Binghamton Exchange Club, Binghamton Recreation Commission, and the Kalurah Temple.  He speaks of professional organizations he is a member of, such as, the National Association of Retail Druggists and N.Y.S. Board of Pharmacy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 48 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Perhach, Michael M. ; Politylo, Nettie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-07-12 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 25:51 Minutes ; 6:25 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/30994d02e6875d72713dff14b60d6c00.jpg a9d67373b3936d15690bfde83bb7f256 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f74a1e0d5f279f93122ea3d56e585f5c.mp3 0cfde04994fa806bbb2d71f383e508cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. 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Date of Interview 2010-06-05 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Simmons Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 142:16 Keywords Baby boom generation; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; TV in the Nineteen fifties; Segregation; Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Summer of Love. Subject LCSH Simmons, Michael--Interviews Biographical Text Musician, writer, filmmaker and activist Michael Simmons was dubbed “The Father Of Country Punk” by Creem magazine in the 1970s. He was an editor of the National Lampoon in the ’80s where he wrote the popular column “Drinking Tips And Other War Stories” and won an LA Press Club Award in the ’90s for his investigative journalism for the LA Weekly. He has written for MOJO, Rolling Stone, Penthouse, LA Weekly, The New York Times, LA Times, High Times, Artillery, CounterPunch, The Rag Blog, The Progressive and Dangerous Minds and has scribed liner notes for Bob Dylan, Michael Bloomfield, Phil Ochs, Kris Kristofferson, Mose Allison, Kinky Friedman, Arthur Lee & Love and Paul Krassner. He wrote and co-produced the documentary The Real Rocky about boxer Chuck Wepner. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Michael Simmons Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 5 June 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) MS (00:00:03): Michael Simmons. SM (00:00:08): Michael, could you give me a little bit, just like in the interview you had with, I think Light in the Attic there, a little bit on your background. Where you grew up, who your mentors were in those first... Say you are in high school, the influences early in your life, maybe a little bit about your parents and your schooling before you really got into music? MS (00:00:35): Well, I was born in New York City in 1955. I am the oldest son of two basically, secular Jewish liberal Democrats, Stevenson, Kennedy liberal democrats from New York. most of my childhood, beginning of my teen years were in the (19)60s. Okay, you asked me a lot of questions at once, so why do not we take each one at one at a time? SM (00:01:22): Okay. MS (00:01:22): What do you want to know? SM (00:01:24): Your beginning years when you were in junior high school and high school? What was going to school like? MS (00:01:29): I would not say those were my beginning years, but my consciousness started to form way before then. Well, I will tell you something. I always knew that I was different, And it just so happens that I was born into that generation. And of course it meant a lot to me that I came of age in the (19)60s. But I would have been an outsider if I had been born 20 years earlier, 20 years later. I will tell you a funny story. My early heroes, when I was a little kid, aside from Bug's Bunny, because he was a troublemaker and he was funny, were, I loved juvenile delinquent movies. And I am talking about when I was four or five years old, I used to watch them on TV. I adored anything about juvenile delinquents. My first week of first grade, there was a cute little blonde girl in my class, and she became my girlfriend of sorts. As much as, I do not know how old a first-grader is, 5, 6, 7 years old, something like that? And she and I planned a bank heist. Here are these two first-graders planning on knocking over a bank. I was enamored with criminals. Because they were the first people who represented people that did not want to be part of, had no interest in being part of the square world, the society in general. And from there, being raised in New York, I grew up very quickly. And I was thinking about this the other day, because I was looking on the Village Voice website, and they have some things archived from the (19)60s, the (19)50s and (19)60s on the site. I started reading the Village Voice, I think, in 1965 or (19)66, when I was either 10 or 11. I mean every week. And so I did not know who these people were, all these painters and poets, but they fascinated me and I got it. I got that, again, they were outsiders, and that the Village Voice was the newspaper for outsiders. Within a year or two, the East Village Other would begin publishing. Or actually it may have started (19)65, I do not remember exactly, and they were even edgier. But I was always drawn to Bohemians. I remember being at camp in the mid (19)60s, summer camp, and at the end of every year in summer camp, we would have something called Color War, which was they would divide the camp up into different colors and they would have different competitions. There was one group of counselors, one of whom I remember in retrospect, I had no idea at the time. But in retrospect, I know that he was gay. And another counselor, a woman was the arts and crafts teacher. And so there was this little crew of counselors who really vocally disliked this concept of color war. Now, what I figured out later is that this little group were beatniks, basically. I mean, we are talking before hippies. By a couple of years, not long, but you know what I mean. There were hippies, but they were not called hippies yet by the media. And I loved them, they were my favorite counselors. So I have always been drawn to the outsiders. I have always been drawn to the Bohemian, and I have always been drawn to the artsy people. Did that answer your question? SM (00:06:08): Yeah. Were you fans of the Kerouac's? The Cassidy's? The Ginsburg's? MS (00:06:13): Well, yeah, but that came later. SM (00:06:14): That came later. Yeah. MS (00:06:17): I am trying to think. I do not remember when I first read On the Road. I began learning who they were. One of my first heroes was Ginsburg. Now, I did buy Howl at a precociously early age, like 11 or something, which would have been (19)66. SM (00:06:35): And that came out in (19)55. MS (00:06:37): Right. No, but I was born in (19)55. SM (00:06:42): So you probably were an Elliot Ness TV fan then, right? On television, because he was... MS (00:06:47): Robert Stack. SM (00:06:48): Yes. MS (00:06:49): That show you mean? SM (00:06:50): Yes. MS (00:06:51): Sure, used to watch that. SM (00:06:53): But that was real big in the (19)60s. And of course, the Cosa Nostra was big in the (19)50s, the underworld. One of the things, I was looking, and I have got a lot of questions from some of the interviews and some background information I have on you, is you have been a musician most of your life, and of course a writer as well. And you call yourself oftentimes a hippie, but you love Country and Western. Could you define what a Country and Western hippie is? MS (00:07:21): Well, these are just words used to give a people a general idea of who I am. I mean, there is no such thing as a Country and Western hippie per se. I guess a Country and Western hippie is somebody with hippie values and perhaps appearance who digs Country music or plays Country music or both. I mean, there is no hard and fast. For instance, I was reading some of your questions that you had sent to Pete Seeger. And I do not know if you saw some guy wrote after that interview I gave for Light in the Attic, criticizing me for being "a Boomer exceptional." SM (00:08:16): Yeah, in fact, I have that right here. MS (00:08:17): And my attitude is I am not a Boomer, nothing. Yeah, technically I am a Baby Boomer according to sociological demarcation. But I do not want to be stuck in a box like that. It is kind of uncomfortable. Well, we can get into the (19)60s later, but Country and Western hippie. In the late (19)60s, I was already a musician. I started playing guitar. I was one of these kids who fell in love with the Beatles in 1963, 64. And I wanted to be a Beatle. I wanted to be a rock and roll musician. And I got a guitar for my 10th birthday, and learned how to play it and started a rock and roll band at a very young age. And by the late (19)60s, a friend of mine was into hardcore Country music like Hank Williams and Merle Haggard, people like that. And he turned me onto it, and I loved it. And I knew that this is what Dylan and the Byrds and people like that were listening to. And hence, certain albums like Nashville Skyline by Dylan or Sweetheart of the Rodeo by the Byrds, the Country was influencing rock. SM (00:09:48): Well, what is interesting is through all these interviews that I have done, different angles, different perspectives, and I have had no one talk about Country and Western, because everybody talks about rock and Motown and folk music and pop vocals. And I have a question here. When we define the music of the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s and beyond, we think of rock, Motown, folk, protest music and music with messages, pop vocals, but rarely Country unless one mentions the big names like Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, Waylon Jennings, Loretta Lynn. However, there is a history of Country and Western, as you explain via your connections with Kris Kristofferson. Explain the linkage to the (19)60s and (19)70s mentality that was present in Boomer youth, even in Country during this time? Because you made some great observations in the interview when you talked about Kris Kristofferson, but then you were talking about the music as a whole. MS (00:10:53): Yeah. Well, I am not sure exactly what your question is, but... SM (00:11:03): What was Country and Western going through during this timeframe? MS (00:11:07): Oh, I see what you are saying. Well, Country was the music originally of the South and of working class southerners, and hence reflecting them. It was basically politically a fairly conservative music. What happened in the late (19)60s, mid to late (19)60s is that these cats started showing up in Nashville, like Kristofferson and others who were more literate. Some of them had college educations. They would read Shakespeare and William Blake, and at the same time, being younger, they also were not afraid of long hair and the counterculture and rock and roll, they dug that. Because that was also part of their world. Cats like Kristofferson being the most notable, obviously. And so Kris helped loosen up Nashville, and he dragged it kicking and screaming, I should say, into the (19)60s. SM (00:12:30): Would Willie Nelson be part of that too? MS (00:12:32): Well, yeah, Willie, he was, but quietly. Willie was not nationally known until the (19)70s, probably early to mid-(19)70s. So he came a little bit later. I mean, he was in Nashville in the early (19)60s writing songs. He wrote Crazy for Patsy Cline, for instance. And he was smoking grass, and he was definitely his own man. He thought for himself, he was an individual. But very few people outside of Nashville or Texas knew who he was. So he did not have an effect on the larger culture until later on. SM (00:13:25): But Kristofferson and Johnny Cash did, because they were pretty big names. MS (00:13:31): Well, Cash had been a big name since the- I guess, earlier to mid-(19)60s or so, or actually since the (19)50s, I am sorry. Folsom Prison Blues. And I Walk the Line and stuff like that. Johnny Cash in many ways came up with the Sun Records, early Rock and Rollers, like Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, and Roy Orbison, people like that. So Cash had always been a little bit hipper than a lot of the Country artists. SM (00:14:10): He wrote some great protest songs too, against the Vietnam War. Some classic ones. MS (00:14:16): Yeah, he did a whole album of protest songs about the plight of the American Indian, actually. Which was a pretty bold thing to do in Nashville in the (19)60s, given how conservative the town was. And he got shit for it, too. People claimed that his wife at the time, before June Carter, was part black. And they spread all these rumors about her and him. And so some of the more conservative elements went after him for being a free thinker. But he did not let it affect him. But Cash was definitely, he was one of the early ones. SM (00:15:13): Where would you place Buffy Sainte-Marie in here too, because of her music, as part native? She is Native American, but she is from Canada, I believe. MS (00:15:24): Yeah, she is Canadian. SM (00:15:24): Yeah. And in recent years, particularly in the (19)80s, Bill Miller, who is a pretty good entertainer as well, he is Native American. There are not too many Native American singers. MS (00:15:36): Right, right. Well, Buffy Sainte-Marie, although she did record a Country album, I think it is called, I Want to Be a Country Girl Again or something. What? Hold on one second. I have a Buffy Sainte-Marie Best of sitting right here. Where is that? Anyway. Oh, here it is, it was called, I am Going to Be a Country Girl Again was the name of the song and the album. But that she recorded in Nashville. I think it was, let us see, 1968, pretty early. But she was really more of a folkie. She was part of the folk boom. SM (00:16:18): Could you describe a little bit more of the culture you identify with? Were you part of the counterculture? A lot of people have given me a lot of different definitions of the counterculture. In your words, what is it? MS (00:16:33): Oh God. Well, first of all, there is more than one counterculture. There are all kinds of countercultures. But for the purposes of what we are talking about here, the counterculture... It is so difficult to try to cram into a box. The Beats were a counterculture. The hippies were a counterculture. Counterculture is the term used to describe any form of culture that is outside the mainstream. Now, the so-called (19)60s' counterculture, it has got all the clichés and long hair and leftist politics and rock and roll and communal living and things like that. The (19)60s counter culture has its own identifying markers. But there are many countercultures. Some would argue that, for instance, the Tea Party, which is the polar opposite of anything that I would ever be a part of, is a counterculture of a kind as well. Now, in terms of me being part of a counterculture, yeah, I was more or less what people refer to as a hippie. In fact, I still am. SM (00:18:07): But a lot of people, when they talk about the Boomer generation, of course, is defined as people born between 1946 and 1964. And even Todd Gitlin, when I interviewed him, he hates the term Boomer generation, and there are others who do not like it. And he said, the people in the Boomer generation between (19)46 and (19)56 are totally different than the Boomers between say, (19)56 and (19)64, because they did not have the same experiences. MS (00:18:39): Well, the big one being, I will tell you, because when I did look at some of those questions you sent to Pete Seeger, the big one that separates those two halves, and I am the tail end of the first half, is that we experienced the Kennedy assassination. Whereas of course, the younger ones did not. Either did not, or they were too young to know what was going on, really. And the Kennedy assassination, of course, was a one of the most powerful events that the country lived through in that time in the early (19)60s. So in terms of being a young person in that time and living through, I mean, all the clichés, the loss of a young vital president who represented change and youth and vitality and all that. It was like enduring a punch in the stomach, a blow to the solar plexus. It took the air out of an entire generation. And it kind of sets people of my age and slightly older up for a change, we wanted a change after that. We did not want the same old death culture that America seemed to represent to us. Does that make sense? SM (00:20:19): Yeah, that is very good. Would you say in your life, that is the one event that shaped you more than any other? MS (00:20:27): I do not think I can say that one event shaped me more than any other, I do not think I can choose just one. But I think it was the first event outside of my personal experience that had a profound impact. SM (00:20:49): Do you remember the exact moment where you were when you... MS (00:20:51): Absolutely. SM (00:20:52): Could you explain that moment? MS (00:20:55): Yeah. I was in, I do not know, third grade, second grade, something like that? And it was the end of the school day. So it was around 2:30, three o'clock in the afternoon. And I was walking out of the school yard, and some girl came up to me and said, "Somebody shot President Kennedy." And I went, "What?" I was surprised. I was shocked. I loved President Kennedy. About a year or so before then, my mother had bought me Profiles in Courage and I would read it. And I was reading at a very young age, I think my father said I I was reading by the time I was four, basically. SM (00:21:46): Oh, that is excellent. MS (00:21:47): And I read Profiles in Courage. I idolized JFK. And I remember walking home, and we lived around the corner from my elementary school, in an apartment building in New York, and there was an elevator operator, and his name was Johnny. I remember this. And I said, "I heard President Kennedy was shot." And he said, "Yeah, but he is going to be okay. He is just wounded." And I went upstairs and my mother was not home yet. And I went and I turned the TV set on. And at some point I saw Walter Cronkite come on and give that announcement, where he looked up at the clock and he said what time JFK was pronounced dead. And I obviously was shocked. And I heard the key come in the door and I heard the lock turn, and I saw the door open, and my mother walked in and looked at me, and she just started to sob. And, wow- SM (00:23:07): But did your family- MS (00:23:09): ...To think of it. SM (00:23:09): ...Spend the next four days around the TV, like so many? MS (00:23:12): Oh, yeah. We saw the Oswald assassination as well. We saw the funeral. It was nonstop for four days. And then, I believe the assassination was on a Thursday, they suspended school on Friday. We went back to school on Monday. And the first thing, they had an assembly to try to... I was like a little kid, you have to remember. And I was in elementary school, so they held an assembly to try to explain to the kids what had happened. My parents were very forthright in trying to explain to me the context. So plus I was already a daily newspaper reader. Had been reading the New York Times since I was a little kid. But yeah, that was a heavy-heavy-heavy-heavy-heavy... SM (00:24:16): Getting back to the music, when we are looking at the Boomer generation, we are talking about any time from 1946 through today, because the oldest Boomers are now 63, and the youngest are 47. And so I have got a question here about the music, because music has been so much a part of your life, not only as a performer with your own group and all the experiences you have had as a writer and the people you have met and worked with. I am breaking it right down here, into the decades. What did you like about the music of the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, the (19)80s, and the nineties and beyond? There had to be something in those decades that you liked? MS (00:25:07): Well, I mean, (19)50s, obviously. I remain a lifelong fan of Rock and Roll, Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Fats Domino, Jerry Lee Lewis, people like that. But even though we kind of rebelled against it, I also always dug my parents' music, meaning Sinatra and jazz, and Mel Torme and Ella Fitzgerald, and people like that. By the (19)60s, obviously, to this day, my favorite music is the holy trinity of Rock and Roll, which is The Beatles, and Dylan and The Rolling Stones. And then all the other (19)60s groups like Jefferson Airplane, the Doors, the Band, the Byrds, and so on. I could go on and on, Hendrix, obviously. I could go on and on and on. That is the stuff that really is meaningful to me. Although I love all kinds of music, and all different eras. (19)70s for me, a lot of it was Country, really. And I also got into old rhythm and blues, old jump blues stuff like Louis Jordan, things like that. But really, the (19)70s was my Country decade, I should say. Now, after that, from the (19)80s on, there is music that I like, and there are singers that I like and musicians that I like and songwriters that I like. But I cannot say that I have a passion for post 1980 pop music the way I did for pre-1980 pop music. SM (00:27:26): How about that music from the mid-(19)70s, disco, which is Saturday Night Fever, seemed to be the line of demarcation? MS (00:27:33): Yeah. Actually, at the time, I was not a disco fan, and some of it is atrocious. But recently I have been hearing old disco songs from the (19)70s, I do not know, on radio or here and there. And some of it is not bad. It was that mechanized beat that used to drive me crazy that, "dint-dint-dint", was something a little same about it, kind of. By definition, it is repetitive, but it has its charm. SM (00:28:20): Yeah, and then my next question is a direct response that you gave to this interview, which I think was an unbelievable response, and I would like it clarified even a little further. This was a question, you remember this, "What about Kristofferson appeals to you? What makes him such a timeless artist?" And your response is "You have to understand the mindset of the (19)60s America, it was an us versus them dynamic. On one side, we were freaks, hippies, troublemakers, and activists. On the other side was the rest of America. At the same time, I had gotten into hardcore Country music, while not shedding my hippie heart. The great thing about Kris, he was one of the first people who was all..." SM (00:29:03): Great thing about Chris, he was one of the first people who was authentically country, but at the same time spoke to hippies. And you mentioned a couple of songs like Billy D and the Pilgrim songs about us, my generation and my world at the same time. It was authentic country music. He was ours, he represented our side. He also bridged the gap. He is in arguably one of the greatest living American songwriters. When you put that together, you by saying that, that is very prophetic in my view. Could you ex explain it even a little further? Because I have been a big fan of Kris Kristofferson, but I have never thought of him in the terms like you explain in this question. MS (00:29:46): Well, I mean, for instance, his most famous song is Me and Bobby McGee. If one listens to the lyrics, it is basically the story of a young hippie couple guy and a girl traveling around the country. It captures that kind of wanderlust that young people engage in general, but particularly members of my generation in that time period, you know. People still hitchhiked in the (19)60s. I do not know if they hitchhike anymore. SM (00:30:18): If they do, they are arrested. MS (00:30:21): Huh? SM (00:30:22): If they do, they are arrested and picked up. MS (00:30:24): Yeah. Yeah. You know, the interesting thing is, for all the complaining we did in the (19)60s, America was a much freer place back then. I mean, it was not free enough for us. But the irony is it got less free, particularly post 1980, which is when Reagan was elected, and that was the beginning of the end, as far as I am concerned. SM (00:30:50): What does less free mean? You say, "Less free." MS (00:30:54): Well, there used to be fewer rules. It works both ways. In some respects. There are things have improved, certainly things have improved since the (19)60s for Black people, and for minorities in general, for women, things like that. I mean, as Hunter Thompson used to say, "The (19)60s was a time when you could roam around the country and not worry about some cop inputting your name in a computer and finding out you had 20 parking tickets in California." Let me see if I can rephrase this, I think Orwell's prophecy came true. I think we are living in an Orwellian police state. I think there is a Big Brother. I think the internet is contributing to that. I mean, I think there are good things about the internet too, but I think one of the negative things about it is a lot of these things like Facebook and other things are means to collect information about people. And it is scary. SM (00:32:22): Yeah. We have been telling students for years about, "Be careful what you put on your Facebook because employers can somehow get access to it, and they can even determine your politics based on what you say about a certain thing that is happening in the news." MS (00:32:38): Sure. SM (00:32:39): Is a follow-up to that question, you said some unbelievable things also about his music, and some of the songs and how relevant they are. And you said music that really influenced you and that you loved, or that was that kind of music that had what you said, "Writing hooks." Great melodies, songs that stay in your mind, lyrics that are beautifully honest and songs on of the times. I would like you to maybe mention some of the music from the either (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s in particular, that you feel were fallen there, not just Kris Kristofferson. And I wrote down 10 songs here that I felt fit, that quality, and I would like your opinion. Marvin Gaye's, What's Going On? Simon and Garfunkel, Bridge Over Troubled Water. John Lennon, Imagine. Barbara Streisand, The Way We Were. The Chambers Brothers, In Time, Mamas and Papas, California Dreamin, Michael Murphy's Wildfire. Sonny and Cher, The Beat Goes On. Barry White, Let the Music Play. Frank Sinatra, My Way. Richie Havens, Freedom. And Bob Dylan, Like a Rolling Stone. And I think I got one other one here, if I can find it here. Well, that is basically the group. Yeah. Is that what is you are talking about here? Because those are continually in my head, 30 years after they were performed. MS (00:34:17): Yeah. Well, in terms of songwriting, there is a certain craft to writing a great song to writing what, what is called a hook. I mean, a hook is really just a melodic and/or lyrical line that for whatever reason, stays in people's heads. There is something memorable about it, either musically, lyrically, or both, hopefully both. And those songs, I would not necessarily agree with everyone, but as I said, that is what makes horse races. It is just a matter of taste. But yeah, most of the songs are extraordinary songs, they are memorable songs. They have hooks, they have great hooks. Those are all well-written songs. Whether I personally love them or not, it is immaterial. Those are all well-written songs. Well, I have some theories about why, and I will discuss those in a second. I mean, there are still people writing good songs, not many. And I do not ask me who they are because I mean, I could tell you a few names. But the art of writing great hooks, and which ultimately means writing great songs kind of has been lost. And part of it is with the popularity rather of hip hop and punk rock, two primary influences on contemporary pop music and rock music, rhythm became more important than melody. Punk and hip hop are rhythm driven, they are not melody driven. And the concept of the hook is largely about melody. So if there is no melody or no identifiable melody, your chances of having a powerful hook that people are going to remember is diminished. Does that make sense? Now, whether there are people who disagree with me about this, but it is just my take on it. I saw the rise of hip-hop and punk rock, and at the same time I noticed that fewer people were writing memorable songs. So I tried to figure out, "Why is this?" And all I could figure out is rhythm over melody, rhythm over melody. SM (00:37:30): The people who really love rap, I have been in the university for quite a few years. Some of them are fair, some of the music is halfway decent. But the one comparison where you might see a comparison between the (19)60s and early (19)70s' music, which is music with messages and strong ethics and strong things for people to think about. That is what a lot of rap music is about. The poverty within the inner city, the plight of Black people that Marvin Gaye sang about it in 1971, but now this is a new way of expressing it. Sure. Any thoughts on the messages? Because the message is a very important part of a song. Kris Kristofferson songs had messages to them. If you listen to them, the problem with a lot of the loud music today is you cannot listen to the message, even though the words are there. The problem I have with it, sometimes. MS (00:38:33): I agree with you and I will give hip hop credit for bringing back lyricism and storytelling. Whether I think personally like it or not, is immaterial for the most part. I do not care for it. I mean, I do not hate it or anything, it is just it is not my thing. But I will give rap artists credit for bringing back spoken word. Or I should say the power of the word. It is not just that it is spoken, but the word that these are story songs, essentially. SM (00:39:10): Which- MS (00:39:10): And often as you point out with messages- SM (00:39:12): ...which seemed to maybe have died in the mid (19)70s when disco came. Yeah. Cause that was all about dancing and everything. Could you define something? I think you are working on something called Outlaw Country Vein, is it is a- MS (00:39:29): Outlaw Country, what? SM (00:39:30): You can call it the Outlaw Country Vein, V-E-I-N. You talk about the music. Kristoffer Kristofferson used to say, as you said in the quote from him, "Do not let the bastards get you down." MS (00:39:45): Oh. Oh- SM (00:39:46): The kind of rebellion streak in American spirit. MS (00:39:48): You are referencing that other interview. SM (00:39:51): Yeah. And also what I love it here, when you say, "The rebellious streak in the American spirit", which was so prevalent in the (19)60s and mid to the mid (19)70s. MS (00:40:03): Yeah. So, I am sorry, what is your question? SM (00:40:06): The question is, how do you define outlaw country music? MS (00:40:11): Well, very specific. It was a very specific music of a time. It was these artists in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, notably Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Kristoffer Kristofferson, and then some lesser known people like Kinky Friedman and others. A lot of them from Texas. Steven? SM (00:40:40): I am here. MS (00:40:41): Oh. I thought you dropped out for a sec. SM (00:40:43): No. MS (00:40:43): Sorry. SM (00:40:43): Yep. MS (00:40:48): They grew their hair along. They did not dress like the older country singers. They looked like they were hippies basically. And they were singing music, it was a little bit closer to rock music. It was stark, it was less produced. I should say it was just as produced, but it had kind of a realistic ethos to it. Very earthy, very down to earth. Not necessarily commercial. The irony is that a lot of these artists ended up being wildly popular, like Willie and Waylon. And so people did find it commercial ultimately. But their idea was to break away from Nashville's concept of what was commercial. Hence, this kind of silly phrase, Outlaws, which was a phrase somebody chose to market them. It was a romantic thing. I mean, Americans always had a romance with the West from Manifest Destiny and founding of the United States. You know, we love stories about cowboys. And so these cats kind of adopted that look and that a lot of that sensibility and called themselves outlaws. But what they were rebelling against, they were not knocking over banks or whoever, or Billy the Kid or whoever, but they were knocking over record companies. SM (00:42:46): Let me change the [inaudible]. Okay. I am back. I had an interview with a very powerful Vietnam veteran, and he is actually back in school teaching at a prestigious school outside Philadelphia. And he has a picture on the back of his wall of a musician from the (19)60s who did not sell out. And because somebody wanted to buy his music, so that could be on a serial or something like that. And the basic premise of the article that he had on the back wall for students to see is that many of the (19)60s rock performers are now making lots of money on their music, but through commercial advertisements linked to corporations. So they are not living their idealism of the (19)60s now. It is all about making money. Your thoughts on that, because you have seen a lot of the rock music that is being played every day on television advertisements. MS (00:43:49): Well, there are many musicians and songwriter who have, "Sold out." I do not cast dispersion on anybody who needs to do something, or chooses to do something for money. I find it distasteful, but I cannot judge. I cannot stand in another man's shoes and tell him what to do. However, I do applaud people like Neil Young and Springsteen, by the way, who refuses to allow his music to be sold for advertisements. So there are musicians who will not. Dylan interestingly will, Neil Young Springfield will not. Others will, The Who will. Again, with some of these people, with Dylan, he does control his publishing. So he is allowing it to happen. But a lot of the musicians yet remember, do not control their song publishing anymore. I would have judge it by a case on a case by case basis, because I do not know who owns what songs. SM (00:45:08): Now, you have been a writer for- MS (00:45:12): I am sorry, Steven, I do not mean to interrupt you. But for instance, the Beatles and John, or Yoko I guess, or somebody, got a lot of when Nike began using the song Revolution- SM (00:45:26): Oh. Yes. MS (00:45:27): ...for a commercial. SM (00:45:27): Yes. MS (00:45:27): And they were saying, "How could Yoko do this," and blah, blah, blah. Well, it turned out that Michael Jackson had bought the Beatles song catalog from that period. And it was either he or his business managers who made that decision. Not Yoko Ono, not John Lennon, because he was dead. SM (00:45:48): Well, he is probably turning over in his grave if he knew about it. MS (00:45:48): Probably. SM (00:45:54): You have been a writer for a long time, looking at all the magazines that you have written for and of course you were with Linked with National Lampoon. I mentioned that your dad ran the National Lampoon? MS (00:46:09): He was the head of the company. Yeah. SM (00:46:12): Wow. How important was the National Lampoon as a magazine during that period? The influence that itself had on boomers? MS (00:46:26): Well, huge. Boomers when they were younger read Mad. But as they were coming into adulthood, they required something that was more adult, and something that was hipper, that was more risqué, that was geared for people who were not little kids anymore. And that is what the Lampoon was. The Lampoon was basically Mad magazine for grownups. Admittedly young grownups, but nonetheless grownups. SM (00:47:03): Would you put the National Lampoon and Rolling Stone as probably the Mount Rushmore of magazines that influenced the boomer generation growing up. MS (00:47:13): Well, I do not necessarily buy concepts like Mount Rushmore. I am not comfortable with the metaphor, but I would say the Rolling Stone and the National Lampoon were two of the most important magazines to pick. SM (00:47:28): You obviously have written so many pieces, even in recent years. I read some of your pieces before the interview today, the one you wrote on The Grateful Dead without Jerry. That was very well written. Are there any pieces you wrote during those years in the (19)80s when you were a younger writer that stick out more than any other, that you had really a lot of fun writing it, and doing research on it, and you got pretty good feedback on it? Are there some articles of throughout the years that have stood out above the others? MS (00:48:02): Well, in the (19)80s, the stuff that I wrote that I am fond of looking back- SM (00:48:10): Yes. MS (00:48:12): ...I wrote a column for the national anthem-anthem called Drinking Tips and Other War Stories, which basically was a monthly column about just saying yes. Meaning, that it was about my experiences with drugs and alcohol. And it was written partly because I was quite frankly fucked up through most of the 1980s. And that is what I had to write about. But it was also, I was consciously making a political statement in an era in America, got more conservative. And Nancy Reagan was pleading to asking, pleading for young people to just say no. I was screaming, "Do what you want, but I am saying yes." Whether that was responsible or not, is another story. But I enjoy doing it and I enjoy reading those pieces from that time. I do not think any of them are on the internet. SM (00:49:25): Have you ever thought of having a book done of your writings? MS (00:49:30): Oh yeah. SM (00:49:30): Just your writings? MS (00:49:31): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There will be simple. SM (00:49:35): Very good. How about anything you have written and say the last 15 years, or even for the Huffington Post, something on an article that stands out? MS (00:49:49): Well, there is all kinds of things in the way. I mean, not probably, I know I have, I have written more in the last 15 years than I wrote in the 40 years before that, 55 now. So yeah. I mean, because I was not primarily a writer before then. Most of my life, I have been a musician. You know, I wrote for the Lampoon in the (19)80s, did some writing, music, journalism in the (19)70s, very little though. I did the Lampoon stuff in the (19)80s, and then went into journalism in the mid (19)90s. And most of my writing was written between say (19)95 and now. What stuff that I liked from this period? Is that what you are asking? SM (00:50:54): Yeah. And a lot of it you have reflections back to that period of the (19)60s and (19)70s, because you wrote- MS (00:50:59): Yeah. I mean, I am still trying to figure it all out. SM (00:51:06): Yeah. How do you feel? You are younger than I am. I am seven years older than you, but how does it feel as time passes on the farther and farther we get away from that period and the older we get, we feel like a lot of the boomers when they were young, felt they never feel like that we are mortal, that we are just part of a continuation in a process of whatever, that we just happened to be living in a very unique time. Do you ever reflect on that as time passes? MS (00:51:45): Sure. Like constantly. I mean, when I say constantly, I do not mean every waking minute, but yeah, it is something that, it is some, it is definitely something I think about it. And mortality, I am sure to some degree your experience has been the same. You may have noticed that as you have gotten older, more dead people. In the last two months alone, I have lost five friends, including an ex-girlfriend, and I have a lot of dead friends. SM (00:52:23): What is amazing, I remember, I do not know if you felt the same way with your parents, but as they were getting older, they would read the obituary columns and there would be people dying that were movie stars in the thirties, and the forties, and the early fifties and everything. Now we read the news today or in the last 10, 15 years, just in the last week or so, individuals have passed on. Dennis Hopper, who we all know from Easy Writer, and all the things that he did throughout the years. Even Arthur Linkletter. Yeah. House Party. I mean, these are all people, does not matter the age, they were all influences on boomers. MS (00:53:03): A little side note footnote here. Oh. How old was I? I do not know, seven or eight or something like that. My father edited the magazine called Signature, which was the house organ of the Diner's Club, the credit card. And for the Christmas issue, one year we did a shot of my brother who was five years younger than me. Well, anyway, I do not want to confuse you. I have a brother who's five years younger, and I have a sister who is two and a half years younger, and the three of us were on the cover of Signature with Art Linkletter dressed as Santa Claus. I remember the shoot, I am the- SM (00:54:03): Oh. My gosh. MS (00:54:03): ...I am the oldest kid. So I remember spending the day with Art Linkletter. Oh. Wait, you know what? That was not Art Linkletter. That was another shoot. That was another photo. But I did do something. I was photographed as a kid for a magazine cover with Art Linkletter dressed as Santa Claus. I am confusing two different covers, and I remember spending the day with Art Linkletter around 1962, somewhere in there. SM (00:54:41): Of course, he lost his daughter, I believe, to suicide in later years. And- MS (00:54:44): She killed herself. SM (00:54:46): Yeah. And of course he lived in the (19)90s and he was always very positive. One of the things in that is happened a lot in these recent years is that politicians or individuals had a love to attack the period as the era where we began, the creation of all the problems we have in America, which is the divorce rate, the breakup of the family, the drug culture, the sexual revolution, lack of respect for authority, the beginning of all the isms. People not working as hard as they used to, all the attacks and the attacks are usually leveled against the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and the generation that grew up during that time. In fact, today you can hear it on the Huckabee Show almost on a regular basis. And whether it be Rush Limbaugh or Newt Gingrich, or even columns written by George Will, we are talking conservatives here now, but a lot of average Americans say this too. So your thoughts on the condemnation of the era and the problems that have faced America since that time. And I want to add one other point. I had data to support the fact that the African American family in the 1950s, even though there was poverty, and Dr. King, and the Civil Rights Movement, families were together in the African American community and it all changed during the (19)60s. MS (00:56:24): It is such a broad question. Books have been written about this. Again, it is hard to nutshell an issue that is as broad as this, but from my point of view, freedom has its own problems, but it is preferable over tyranny and it is preferable over a bunch of nonsensical rules that are only in place so that certain people can maintain power. I mean, there is so many issues that you reference, it is hard to give all them their just due in one sweeping, in a few sweeping sentences. But for the most part, I think what the baby boomers of the (19)60s' generation, or whatever you want to call it, what they brought to this country has ultimately been positive. I mean, when I was a little kid, there were still colored restrooms and water fountains south of the Mason Dixon line. I sat and watched- MS (00:58:03): I sat and watched, I will never forget this. Excellent. I sat and watched the news with my mother when, I guess it was (19)64, (19)65, when the march on Birmingham, Alabama, and the local cops sicced police dogs and water hoses on the nonviolent demonstrators. And all they were, were Black, mostly African Americans, some whites who were trying to desegregate the south. So nobody can tell me that we were better off then because I do not believe it. SM (00:58:44): Well, you were born in (19)55, so you really did not start really recognizing television until say, the late (19)50s, real late (19)50s. But that black and white TV set that we all had with the three channels, and occasionally there was a fourth channel. That was a local channel. You did not see very many people of color on any shows- MS (00:59:07): True. SM (00:59:08): ...In the (19)50s. I am not trying to lead the question here, but I want your response and your impact of, because even in the (19)60s, we know that this was the first war that was truly covered on television, the Vietnam War, and had a lot of influence. But in the (19)50s, the only African Americans that were on TV in the early (19)50s, the slapstick Amos and Andy Show, which was- MS (00:59:32): I remember it. SM (00:59:33): Yeah. Which is kind of a, it was- MS (00:59:34): But I remember it- SM (00:59:38): Everybody watched it, but it made them look like buffoons. And secondly, Nat King Cole had a show that lasted for maybe 12 weeks, and that was it until the early (19)60s when all of a sudden Flip Wilson had his show. Diahann Carroll was on a show on nurses. She played a nurse. MS (00:59:55): I remember that. SM (00:59:57): And then of course, I Spy with Bill Cosby. There was a fourth show, I cannot remember the fourth, but that was the beginning of it. And I am just perceiving this as a person who's not very well schooled. I am just seeing it. What are your thoughts on the television? Was television in the (19)50s masking all the problems we were having? MS (01:00:20): Well, yeah. I mean, television was, there has never been an... I should not say never, but has rarely been an honest reflection of what is really going on. It is a yes and no answer. I mean, on one hand there was less reality back then, and yet in some ways there was more truth. To say... It depends upon the show. I mean, I think, for instance, that television journalism had more integrity in that era. People like Edward R. Murrow, Walter Cronkite- SM (01:01:08): Dave Garroway. What is that? MS (01:01:11): Dave Garroway was another good one. Right. Huntley and Brinkley, people like that. You had a sense that these men were journalists and not just entertainers. And notice that I said men and not women, because there were no women. There were very, I mean there were a handful of correspondents, but there were no anchors. Another thing to note, by the way, in terms of how America has changed. SM (01:01:45): The only female correspondent I can remember was Nancy Dickerson, who was on during the Kennedy administration. MS (01:01:51): I went to school with her daughter. SM (01:01:53): Did you? Wow. She was there. And then there was one that was a UN person. I forget. There were very few. The one thing that, the reality that you mentioned too, was the McCarthy hearings were shown on TV in the early (19)50s, and that they were scary. And as a little kid, I did not understand it, but I was scared of that guy. They were scary, but they were being shown on TV. Was there a generation gap in your family? MS (01:02:22): Sure. SM (01:02:24): Explain the gap in your family. MS (01:02:26): Well, it was interesting because my parents, again, as I said earlier, my parents, they were not raving squares. They certainly were not right-wing extremists or anything. They were liberals and fairly open-minded. They had both been in the entertainment world in various capacities. My mother was a singer. My mother's boyfriend before she married my father was Charlie Parker's pianist, Al Hague. SM (01:02:54): Oh, really? MS (01:02:56): So she came up in the jazz world. She had smoked pot before I was born. And so they certainly were not squares, but when the heavy-duty hippies scene came down, they were kind of horrified. It was something that, that kind of openness and that kind of bohemianism was something that was not done in polite company, prior to the late (19)60s. SM (01:03:31): Was there any differences over the Vietnam War? MS (01:03:34): At first, yeah. Although my father, my father is still alive, and he forgets this, but he claims he was always against the war, but he actually supported the war initially. And we had screaming matches because by (19)66, (19)67, I was 11, 12 years old, I had already figured out that I was against the war, largely because people like, well, my heroes like Bob Dylan and Allen Ginsburg were against it. And I would read up on it. I decided I was against it. My parents and I would have arguments, and they would talk about the domino theory. And I would counter that, "This is a civil war in Vietnam, and that all the Vietnamese want is America to go mind its own business." But within a year or two, they were against the war. By (19)68, they were against it. SM (01:04:39): You had already said that there was some good things that came out of that generation. Now remember, this generation is 74 to 78 million. They cannot even figure out the exact number. I am sure the Census Bureau can figure it out. But- MS (01:04:52): Steven, I am sorry, which generation are you referring? SM (01:04:54): The boomer generation. MS (01:04:55): Oh, boomer. SM (01:04:56): Yeah. They were defined as anywhere between 74 and 78 million. And when I asked this question, I have had a lot of different responses as well, is can you state some strengths and weaknesses of the generation? And it is hard to talk for 74 million people, but- MS (01:05:17): Well, that was going to be my... Yeah, I am sorry. Go ahead. SM (01:05:20): The people that you knew that were boomers, it is based on your personal. MS (01:05:24): Well, my friends were hippies so I have a very, to a large degree, I have a limited point of view. My friends all had long hair, smoked dope and dog rock music and dropped acid. And we were the people our parents warned us against, as the famous saying goes. And so that is my perspective. I am the horror show that conservatives talk about to this day. SM (01:06:00): So you say your generation is nothing but strength, and- MS (01:06:04): What is that? SM (01:06:05): So you are saying there are no weaknesses within the- MS (01:06:08): No-no-no. I did not say that. But the problem is that I do not know how to generalize about a generation. I mean, you have to remember, people say, "The baby boomers." People say the (19)60s, and they think that somebody means that every young person had long hair, was at Woodstock. Well, that is not true. Most young people were fairly normal, whatever that means. I mean, they may have had longish hair and everyone loved the Beatles, and they may have smoked pot or not, but they were not raving hippies. Most young people, most boomers. I happened to be one who was. SM (01:06:54): One of the ways that the generation- MS (01:06:54): Sorry, Steven, let me just, I am sorry. Let me just finish this one thought. I did not mean to interrupt you. I am sorry. All I am saying is that to try to stereotype an entire segment, just merely, the only thing they have in common is that they were born at the same time, relatively same time. It cannot be done. They cannot be stereotyped. You know what I am saying? SM (01:07:20): Good points. Because others have said the same thing. And that is, really only between, some people have said only 15 percent of this generation ever got involved in any kind of activism. And 85 percent just went on day after day, may have been subconsciously affected, but did not really act. And then someone told me it is as low as 5 percent. So still, when you are talking about 74 to 78 million, it is a lot of people that did get involved. Your thoughts on this issue of uniqueness? A lot of the people when I was in college felt that they were the most unique generation in American history because there was this feeling, and you may have felt it amongst your peers, no matter what state they were in, that they were going to end war, bring peace, end racism, sexism, homophobia, and change the world. Well, obvious when you look at the world today, some people say, we are in worse shape than we have ever been. And who is in charge? The boomers and the up and coming generation X-ers. So just your thoughts on the uniqueness that many people felt within the generation. MS (01:08:30): Well, did I feel that? Yeah, I definitely felt that at the time. And I did believe in what Abbie Hoffman dubbed Woodstock Nation. I felt that we were going to create a new world, a world without borders based on a kind of hip communism. We were delusional, quite frankly. And also, again, to reiterate what we were talking about earlier, the people who were true believers in that philosophy, including myself, we were relatively speaking, a small percentage of the generation. We were also very loud, and a lot of us were smart, and we knew how to make noise and how to get noticed. SM (01:09:34): Would you also say that, as you say about Chris Kristofferson, a man who has been consistent from the time he was a young man to today with his music, that there is a lot of boomers that were consistent and still are in their lives? MS (01:09:54): Yes, absolutely. It is interesting. There are exceptions, but for the most part, if you look at the people in the (19)60s, and I do not know whether they were technically boomers or not, it would have to be on a case by case basis, because a lot of them were born before (19)45 or (19)46 or whatever the demarcation is. But if you look at the people who were really serious, the leaders, the ones who are still winning, they are still doing the work in one way, shape, or form or another. And I am talking about everybody from the Yippies who are still alive, a la Krassner. SM (01:10:41): Oh, he is great. MS (01:10:41): What is that? SM (01:10:41): He is great. MS (01:10:41): Yeah. Well, I think you got to me through Paul, right? SM (01:10:51): Yeah, I got to... Yeah, Paul. And Paul, man, I wish I had known him when I lived in the West Coast, because he is just a fantastic person. MS (01:10:58): Yeah, he is. SM (01:10:58): And he is an intellect. But he is also funny. MS (01:11:03): He is very, oh, he is one of the funniest men alive. And it is interesting about Paul, Paul really walked the talk. He was not just for a better world, he was for people treating each other in everyday life, he was for people treating each other decently. And it is one thing that Paul has always done is treat his fellow human beings decently. He is one of the truly nicest people I have ever known. In addition to being a great wit and thinker and political commentator and satirist. SM (01:11:48): Really good writer too. MS (01:11:49): Excellent. SM (01:11:53): One of the things too, the Peace Corps people, Peace Corps people that I have known that were in the Peace Corps have gone on with other things in their lives, and they have been consistent in most respects by carrying on that experience beyond the time when they were young. MS (01:12:06): Were you in the Peace Corps? SM (01:12:07): No, but I have interviewed a few people and that philosophy and that feeling of giving back and caring about others beyond oneself and those that are hurting, it has been carried on in their lives wherever they work. So it continues. What are your thoughts? Just basically, because the (19)60s and the (19)70s were all about movements. We had the anti-war movement and obviously the civil rights movement, which was ongoing. And then the women's movement evolved, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement- MS (01:12:37): Oh, Steven, can you hold just one second? SM (01:12:39): Yes. MS (01:12:39): I am sorry. I just have to go check something. Hold on. SM (01:12:43): Fine. I am back here with the tape now. MS (01:12:45): Sorry, man. SM (01:12:46): Oh, that is okay. I am talking about the movements. There were so many movements. On Earth Day in 1970, I know they worked with groups, the anti-war movement to make sure it was okay, that they would support the event itself. There seemed to be a lot of cooperation within the movements. Now they are being criticized as single-issue groups, rarely coming together with camaraderie. In other words, the gay and lesbians protest certain things, and they do not have the other groups there. The women's groups are the same way. Native American, earth, the environmental groups. You do not see the posters from all the groups. Are you sensing this too, that what was, in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, these movements that were very important for justice, that they were working together? Now they seem to be single issue and kind of segregated. MS (01:13:51): Well, there was something back then that does not exist now, which, there was a powerful left wing. There was a powerful left-wing political movement overall. And in the process, there was solidarity between groups and different causes. There is no left of any... I mean, to speak of. There is no left, left, I guess is the only way to put it. I mean, there is. There are a handful of commentators who are somewhat left wing, but you are talking about a period where a lot of the older people have lived through, our elders had lived through the Depression. In my family alone, there were Trotskyites and anarchists and all kinds of people who had lived through the Depression and decided that capitalism was the culprit. And there were a lot more people who gave credence to the notion of socialism back then. It does not have the kind of widespread respect that I think it once did. I mean, for crying out loud, the word liberal, which to me is almost a meaningless term, is considered a dirty word. That tells you how far this country has gone in 30 years, in my opinion. SM (01:16:04): Yeah. And it is interesting about President Obama who tries to separate himself from the boomer generation, but his critics say he is the reincarnation of the boomers, or that particular kind of- MS (01:16:19): Well, that is ridiculous. I mean, whatever you want to say about Obama, whether one likes him or does not like him, and I have very mixed feelings about him. I mean, I wish him the best, but I am not crazy about him. I am not crazy about what he has done thus far, is what I mean, although he is certainly an improvement. But that is, anyway, but- SM (01:16:42): It is like that one guy that criticized you said, the guy on exceptionalism said, "You only like the music of that particular period and will not listen to the music of today." He said, "Well, you are responsible for the George Bush." MS (01:16:59): I mean, it is so patently absurd. SM (01:17:01): Yeah. MS (01:17:01): I do not even know how to respond, which is why I did not respond to that guy, because his argument is all over the map, and I did not want to waste my time. SM (01:17:11): Two basic questions that I have asked everyone in this process, there are two issues dealing with the issue of healing and the issue of trust. The issue of healing is a simple question that I came up with students when we took them to Washington DC in the mid (19)90s and one of our leadership on the road programs. And we met with former Senator Edmund Muskie, who was the vice-presidential running mate with Humphrey at the (19)68 convention in Chicago. And the question was this, that is the boomer generation going to go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing due to all the divisions that were taking place in the United States at that time. Some say we were even close to a second civil war. The divisions between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against it, supported the troops and those who were against it. These students, again, had not seen or were not alive then, but they saw the riots in the (19)60s. They saw the burnings of major cities, they saw the assassinations of two major leaders in (19)68, and Tet, and the president withdraw all these things, tremendous divisions. Your thought on the boomer generation, whether this is an issue or not? MS (01:18:34): Well, I am not entirely sure what your question is. Are you... I am sorry, what? SM (01:18:40): The question is really, do you think the Civil War generation did go to its grave not healing? And the question is, there were so many divisions, and we seem to see them today in politics. They are just like they were back in the (19)60s, but they are older. Is there an issue with the boomer generation with respect to healing? I know a lot of people are not having a problem with this, but some may. MS (01:19:10): One thing I have learned as I have gotten older is that life is a process. It is not necessarily about achieving, it is not necessarily about seeing, reaching a goal, but it is about trying to reach a goal, if you understand what I am saying. And I should say, when I was young, many of my brothers and sisters in the so-called movements, we thought we were going to live to see Woodstock Nation. Well, it certainly did not happen when we thought it was going to happen. Will it ever happen? I do not know. Do I know what is going to happen before I die? I have no idea. But I know that it is important to continue to fight for what one believes. That is the only thing that matters. I do not mean it is the only thing that matters because obviously we want to achieve certain things, but whether we do or do not is not really up to us, except in so much as that we have to do the best job that we can about whatever it is that we were advocating. SM (01:20:35): Edmund Muskie basically responded by saying... He did not even respond about 1968. He said we had not healed since the Civil War in the area of race. And then he went on to talk for about 10 minutes on that issue. And let me change my [inaudible]. In terms of... Make sure this is working right here. Yes. Okay. So the healing, some people have also said, "Why do not you define this better when you ask this question, and simply say, those who supported the war and those who were against the war? Then maybe you can get some more in-depth answers instead of being so general." Because the wall was built, and I like your opinion on the wall, that was built and put up in (19)82 to heal the veterans and their families. And I know that there is still a lot of healing because I go down there every Memorial Day and Veterans Day, so they still have a long way to go. But I have often thought about the anti-war people and whether when they have come to the wall, whether they have second thoughts about their actions or would have done it all over again. So I think I am, some respects thinking more about those who were for and against the war. MS (01:21:55): Well, I mean, I was firmly in the anti-war camp. In fact, I worked, when I was a teenager, I worked for an organization in New York called the Fifth Avenue Peace Parade Committee, which was the primary anti-war group in New York during the Vietnam era. And I spent my weekends volunteering at their office. And when we would do big demonstrations, I would leaflet, go out and pamphleteer, and I almost got my ass kicked, [inaudible]. There were people who objected to some snot-nosed little hippie kid handing out anti-war leaflets. But I went to the wall in DC soon after it was built, and I was very moved by it. It is a very contemplative place, as you know. A very moving place. The thing that I think the anti-war movement gets bad rapped about is that we were the ones who were trying to end the god damn thing and keep people from dying over it. And yet, often, from various quarters, we get the rap that we were not respecting the soldiers. Well, that is not true. I think that we had more respect for the soldiers in their lives and their loved ones, we had more respect for them than the pro-war people. These kids, who by the way, were us, were cannon fodder for politicians and political motives, and there was no reason for them to die. There is no reason for these kids in Iraq and Afghanistan to be dying. SM (01:24:11): Yeah. Even the Vietnamese have stated since the war ended that they knew that the anti-war movement would mean victory for them because the United States would not have the willpower to continue if it is not popular at home in the long run. So they, the Vietnamese say that the war was won in America by those who were against the war, and so they did not go full force. And then that is, a lot of the critics have heard that, and they say, "Well, they prolonged the war, and we did not win the war because of the anti-war people." MS (01:24:56): I do not think we should have won the war. I was against us winning the war, whatever that means. I mean, we were on the wrong side. As I said earlier, my perspective has not changed from 1967. Vietnam was a civil war. It really was not even a civil war. It was a war between the Vietnamese and a puppet government created by the United States. It was geopolitical chess playing, but instead of chess pieces, it was the lives of young men. SM (01:25:46): How important were the college students in ending the war? They did a lot of protesting from (19)67 on. MS (01:25:54): How important was college students- SM (01:25:56): In terms of ending the war? What do you think was the main reason why the war ended? MS (01:26:01): The war? As much as I would love for the anti-war movement to get credit for ending the war, the truth is the war took 10 years to end. It did not end quickly. The only thing that is gone on longer is this idiocy in Afghanistan, but certainly college students and young people, a lot of them made sure that their voices were heard, and it had an effect. It definitely had an effect. SM (01:26:43): What did the Vietnam War teach you as a person? MS (01:26:54): What did it teach me as a person? Well, I mean, I guess the bottom line is it reinforced- MS (01:27:03): Well, I mean, I guess the bottom line is it reinforced my feelings that war is usually pointless. I mean, sometimes it is absolutely necessary. I am not a pacifist, but I am sorry? SM (01:27:19): No, continue. MS (01:27:27): But war for no reason or for nebulous reasons or for reason or for geopolitical power plays is immoral, in my opinion. SM (01:27:42): What did the (19)60s and (19)70s teach you? MS (01:27:48): Think for yourself. SM (01:27:50): Very good. Do you like the term boomer? MS (01:27:56): No. SM (01:27:57): If you were to define the generation from (19)46 to (19)64, what term would you use? MS (01:28:03): Young people. SM (01:28:05): Young people, very good. One of the questions, the other question besides healing, was the issue of trust. The generation has often been defined as a generation that just does not trust, and there was obvious reasons why because leaders lied to them for a long time, whether it be LBJ with the Gulf of Tonkin, or seeing Richard Nixon, Watergate. There were so many other instances during the war with McNamara on those figures that were not true about the people that had died. But you know, being a person during that time, that the boomers did not trust anyone in positions of leadership or responsibility, whether that was a university president, the vice president of student affairs, a rabbi, a priest, a corporate leader, a congressman, a senator. Anybody in a position of responsibility, they kind of frowned on him because they did not trust him. Do you agree with that? And because that was very prevalent when I was in college. And secondly is not being very trustful a negative? MS (01:29:26): I think healthy skepticism, and again, it is one of these case by case issues. You have to let your brains and your heart guide you. When I say you, I mean any sentient human. Mistrust is earned or should be earned. SM (01:30:00): Right. MS (01:30:01): And likewise, trust should be earned. I do not go around... I neither mistrust nor trust unless I know something about the person or the situation. I do not inherently mistrust or trust. And maybe, to be fair, there are certain things that perhaps I do inherently mistrust. To try and answer your question, I think I probably do inherently mistrust authority. SM (01:30:46): Well, one of the first things you learn in political science, and I was a history, political science major, is that lack of trust is very healthy in a democracy because it means dissent is allowed and it is alive and well in a democracy. Would you agree with that? MS (01:31:05): Yeah, absolutely. SM (01:31:07): So I think it is a healthy thing, even though some people... I am trying to keep my opinions out of it, but a couple other things here and then I just have some ask you to respond to some names and terms. And then we will be done. I know this might be another one of those general questions. Do you think boomers have been good parents and grandparents? And I say this only... You can only do this from the experiences that you have had with your fellow boomers, but the question I am always asking people is, has this generation ever sat down with their kids and grandkids and shared with them? MS (01:31:45): Well, again- SM (01:31:46): And do the kids – MS (01:31:47): ...such a broad question. I mean, every individual is different. I would hate to paint an entire generation with a brush this broad. SM (01:31:57): How about just the term activism? MS (01:31:59): Sorry. SM (01:31:59): How about just seeing activism, which was a very important part of many of the boomers, do you see it today a lot in others? MS (01:32:08): Do I see activism a lot? SM (01:32:10): Yeah. In young people. MS (01:32:14): [inaudible] amongst activists. SM (01:32:14): Well, no, I mean, do you see it amongst young people today and maybe in the last 20 years? MS (01:32:21): Well, I have seen it, but that is partly because I am an activist and I run in activist circles. If I did not, I am not sure that I would have witnessed it. In other words, because I am an activist, I get to meet other activists and often they are young people. SM (01:32:39): Yes. MS (01:32:40): If I was not an activist, I am not sure that I would witness a lot of activism because it is not like it was, say, in (19)69 or (19)70 where you were constantly seeing, witnessing a dissent. It is not like that anymore. In fact, there is a lot more blind acceptance of the way things are. Although it is interesting, if you read the opinion polls, these millennials or whatever they are called are actually the most progressive politically, progressive generation ever since these kinds of polls have been taken. SM (01:33:28): And they like boomers. MS (01:33:29): They do like boomers? SM (01:33:32): Yes, they do. Because since I am in higher ed, I was in higher ed for all these years, millennials link up with boomers in many ways. They want to leave a legacy. A lot of boomers, when they were young, wanted to leave a legacy. But we talked about this, ending more and bring peace to the world and all the other things. Many may not have succeeded, but they believe in that. Well, a lot of millennials believe in they want to leave a legacy too, but the difference between boomers and millennials is the time they plan to do it. Millennials want to create a legacy beginning around 40. They want to raise families, get a job, do all the things they do, but they are thinking down the road that they want to leave something for future generations. So it is just the timing more than anything else that may be different. I have got some slogans here. Actually these are three slogans that I feel define the generation slogan. Number one is, "Malcolm X by any means necessary," which symbolizes a more radical, maybe even the use of guns, violent aspect to the movement. The second one is the quote that Bobby Kennedy took from I think George Bernard Shaw, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not," which is the activist, the mentality of I want to make a difference, bring justice to the world. And then there is the more hippie mentality, which was on Peter Max posters in the early (19)70s. And I had one on my door at Ohio State, which stated, "You do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." That was kind of a hippie statement. And the only other one that people have mentioned is, "We shall overcome," which is symbolic of the Civil Rights Movement. And one other person mentioned, John Kennedy's, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Do you have any slogans that you think define the boomer generation? MS (01:35:53): Again, I do not think that the boomer generation has a singular way to define boomers. I think that what happened with the boomers is, and I know I am not necessarily answering your question because again I am hesitant to paint the entire generation with a broad brush, but what I think happened in the (19)60s basically is for a lot of reasons that could be enumerated but we do not have a whole... Again, it is something that books get written about these things. What happened was that for the first time in history... I guess it could be argued though the Renaissance, the Enlightenment maybe. But for the first time in history, certainly in recent history, meaning the last few hundred years or so, couple hundred, a Bohemian movement went mass, went viral. And you saw a Bohemian movement emerge from the shadows, emerge from the underground and become mainstream. Now, what happened in the process, interestingly enough, is that when that Bohemian movement went mainstream, partly what killed it off because it got co-opted by people whose motivation is profit, mainly Madison Avenue and people trying to sell things. SM (01:37:54): This last part of the interview is just a lot of names. You probably saw that at the bottom, but it says, " What do these events mean to you? And then just quick thoughts." Does not have to be anything in depth, but what do these events mean to you? The opening of the wall in 1982. MS (01:38:16): Oh, the Vietnam Wall, you mean? SM (01:38:18): Yes. MS (01:38:20): What does it mean to... I think it was an attempt by America to come to terms with Vietnam for once and for all, although it may not have worked that way. I think at the very least, it paid lip service or it gave respect to the [inaudible]. And there is nothing wrong with that. I mean, it was a good thing, I think. SM (01:38:51): What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? MS (01:38:56): Oh, that meant a lot to me. Kent State and Jackson State meant that law and order was more important to the establishment than us, than our lives were. We were expendable. SM (01:39:19): What does Watergate mean to you? MS (01:39:21): Just a symbol of the kind of corruption that continues in everyday politics. It is the same old shit, basically. SM (01:39:36): What does Woodstock and the Summer of Love mean to you? MS (01:39:42): It was an attempt by human beings to create a new reality. SM (01:39:49): What do the hippies mean to you? MS (01:39:51): Hippies were the largest mass Bohemian movement in history. SM (01:39:59): What do the Yippies mean to you? MS (01:40:07): Yippies were hippies who had been beaten up by cops. SM (01:40:13): How about, what does the Vietnam Veterans Against the War mean to you? MS (01:40:18): They were soldiers who had come to the realization that they had been fighting the wrong war. SM (01:40:27): And the next one is counterculture, but I think you have already discussed that. What do communes mean to you? MS (01:40:35): Again, an attempt at creating a new reality, a new way to live. SM (01:40:40): What do the Black Panthers and Black Power mean to you? MS (01:40:48): Well, the Panthers were a group of mostly young Black men and women who came together to reclaim their basic rights as Americans and human beings. SM (01:41:05): And Black Power? MS (01:41:05): Black Power was just an expression of pride in a time when Black people were still fighting for basic human rights. SM (01:41:26): What does SDS mean to you? MS (01:41:30): SDS was the first and largest group of young white Americans of that era, late (19)50s, early (19)60s, coming together and saying, "We have a vision for a different kind of America." SM (01:41:53): What does the National Organization for Women mean to you? MS (01:42:00): Same thing as the Black Panthers, but for women. SM (01:42:03): And how about the American Indian Movement? That would be the same thing. MS (01:42:06): Same thing. SM (01:42:09): Yeah. MS (01:42:09): It was a gay liberation. SM (01:42:10): Yeah. Yeah. And the same thing with Stonewall. And I think we- MS (01:42:15): Same thing. SM (01:42:16): Yeah. What does Attica mean to you? MS (01:42:24): Same. Imprisonments. These are all movements of people trying to reclaim their humanity. SM (01:42:29): What does My Lai mean to you? MS (01:42:36): My Lai was just a war crime that got noticed. SM (01:42:41): And what does Tet mean to you? MS (01:42:46): Tet represented the fact that the American military is not invincible. SM (01:42:57): And then these are just names of people, just quick responses. MS (01:42:59): Which, by the way, we are seeing repeated in Afghanistan and Iraq. Anyway. SM (01:43:04): Yeah. Please respond to these people in or terms, just quick responses. Tom Hayden. MS (01:43:17): Real smart, real committed, honorable guy. SM (01:43:22): Jane Fonda. MS (01:43:30): I think that Jane Fonda's... Well, what do you mean? Jane Fonda, the activist? Jane Fonda, the fitness? SM (01:43:40): Yeah, but the total- MS (01:43:42): There is so many Jane Fondas. SM (01:43:43): There is a new book out by Mark Lemke on Hanoi Jane. I am reading it right now. MS (01:43:48): Yeah. Yeah. SM (01:43:48): It brings up the three different aspects of her. Are you talking about the activist? Are you talking about the physical fitness guru? Or are you talking about the entertainer? MS (01:43:58): Right. Good actress. I do not know anything about aerobics, but I am sure she is a fine aerobics instructor. As far as her activist, I more or less was in solidarity with her. SM (01:44:13): John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. MS (01:44:20): Great men, very flawed. SM (01:44:24): Dwight- MS (01:44:25): Wait a second. Wait a second. But I think that I should say that about JFK. I think that Bobby, had he lived, may have changed the course of American history and may have been the greatest American president, but we will never know that. So it is just a feeling. I had great affection for Bobby. SM (01:44:44): Dwight Eisenhower. MS (01:44:48): Represents an older America that I do not have that much affection for. SM (01:44:59): LBJ and Hubert Humphrey. MS (01:45:03): Well, those are two different people. LBJ is a fascinating man, again, very, very flawed. A great man in many respects and a war criminal at the same time. Humphrey represents a kind of ineffectual, cannot do spirit in America, where I guess his heart was in the right place, but his ass was owned by the establishment. SM (01:45:47): Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. MS (01:45:49): Well, both men who saw that the war was morally wrong and spoke up. SM (01:45:57): Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X. MS (01:46:00): Again, two different men representing two different things, but both, in my opinion, great men, great human beings, great Americans. Again, I think if both had lived, they might have affected more change and accomplished more. Again, I do not know. I am just guessing, but two men I have immense immeasurable respect for. SM (01:46:38): Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford. MS (01:46:43): Well, Gerald Ford is just a joke, but Ronald Reagan is the most overrated president in the history of this country. And furthermore, he was the guy who set this country back and put it on the track back to greed and war and all the bad stuff. And I think when the history books... It always depends on who is going to write the history but in my opinion, Ronald Reagan will not be viewed as a kindly old uncle, the benevolent conservative that he is viewed as in many quarters now. I mean, really, this country started to go downhill beginning with his election. And as he is as revered as he is does not say a lot of good things about this country. SM (01:48:11): Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. MS (01:48:14): Nixon is just a crook. He knew. What he said he was not, he was. Agnew, another liar. These guys are about power. That is what they are about. SM (01:48:35): Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. MS (01:48:37): Again, two very different men cannot really be described in the same breath. Abbie personally is one of my heroes, a brilliant man, very funny, very good writer by the way. I have always thought Abbie's writings were underrated. He had a vision for a different kind of America. But I will tell you something, most Americans are not hip enough to understand where Abbie was going. The thing is Abbie was a hipster. Abbie was like a jazz musician and trying to affect change the way a jazz musician would. And that is not ever going to work because, as I said, most human beings is not that hip. I have respect for Jerry. I do not necessarily view his late in life conversion to capitalism as some kind of betrayal or anything, but he is a complicated guy. He did a lot of good. He also was capable of really making an ass of himself. Very inconsistent man. SM (01:49:58): And I do not know if you had a chance to see the YouTube of him on the Phil Donahue Show. MS (01:50:02): Yeah, I do not know if you know, but I have been working on a documentary about the Yippies for about six years now. SM (01:50:09): I did not know that. MS (01:50:10): So we have a whole... Well, it is not finished, but we have a whole sequence about the Phil Donahue Show. I spoke to Phil Donahue about that, about Jerry's appearance on the very show that you are talking about. SM (01:50:23): And boy, Phil Donahue, for him to just sit there and take what he was taking was something. MS (01:50:29): He was trying to give Jerry the benefit of the doubt, and Jerry just kept making a fool of himself. SM (01:50:36): The Berrigan brothers and Dr. Benjamin Spock. MS (01:50:41): Great Americans, great human beings. SM (01:50:44): How about Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, some of the- MS (01:50:52): Well, again, I cannot characterize them all. They are different women, but Bella I loved. I mean, I am a New Yorker and I am a New York Jew, so I have sort of a soft spot for Bella. Loudmouth, New York feminist, beautiful, beautiful woman. Betty Friedan, visionary. Gloria, she did good stuff. But my problem with what we used to call women's liberation and what later was called feminism, is that it lost its Marxist analysis. And what I am trying to say is a lot of feminists believed that once women gained positions of power, because women were nurturers, that they would bring peace and they would bring understanding and they would bring people together. But we have seen that women... I mean, we are seeing it with this idiot, Sarah Palin now. Women can be as divisive as men. And so I think feminism, the way it has played out, has been a flawed philosophy. But I do not mean to say that I do not basically agree with feminism. I do. I also do believe that men and women are different. SM (01:52:28): How about Phyllis Schlafly? Because she is the extreme [inaudible]. MS (01:52:31): She is just a joke. SM (01:52:33): How about President Jimmy Carter and President Bill Clinton? MS (01:52:38): Again, two completely different guys. I think Clinton is a phony, never liked him. Was life better under him than under Bush? Hell yeah, but I just do not like the guy. There is something oily about him. I mean, I will never forget watching Clinton on TV before he was elected president, and I had heard or I had read that he had been called Slick Willie in Arkansas. But I did not really know why. I remember watching him give a speech before he was elected president in (19)92, and I remember sitting there thinking, "Man, this cat is slick." And that he knew how to put one over on a crowd. He knew how to manipulate a crowd. And then when the little light bulb went off over my head and I went, "Ah, that is where he got the Slick Willy came from." Obviously, politically, I am closer to Bill Clinton than I am any Republican. I just do not like the guy personally. Jimmy Carter is someone who was not a very good president, but I think he was a better president than he was portrayed as at the time. His post-presidential work has been fantastic. SM (01:54:09): How about George Bush the first and George Bush the second? MS (01:54:14): Well, boy, obviously I have no fondness for either man. But at least George the first had read more than three books. W is by far the dumbest man in my lifetime, the dumbest man to achieve that kind of power. I mean, the fact that he was President of the United States for eight years is one of the scariest realities. SM (01:54:58): How about when you talk about the Black Panthers, you already talked about them, but there is very unique personalities. There is Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, H Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael. All those six are major, major different Black Panther leaders. Any thoughts on them as a group? MS (01:55:22): As a group or as individuals? SM (01:55:24): Yeah, group or individuals. MS (01:55:26): Well, again, I do not like to characterize people. Each human being is their own human, has their own set of character traits and pluses and minuses. I think Huey was a visionary. He was clearly also, to put it mildly, a very flawed man including probably a murderer. Eldridge, very flawed, but a brilliant man. MS (01:56:01): Very flawed, but a brilliant man. Same with H Rep around Stokely. I will say this though, I do believe that all these people, all these cats were driven to extremism, madness, drug addiction, and various other maladies because of the innate, inherent racism of the country that they were born and raised. I think that they were pushed to Matt SM (01:56:39): Even- MS (01:56:41): But I have a lot of respect for the man. SM (01:56:42): Even David Horowitz, who was the head of one of the writers for Ramparts, who was a die-hard conservative now. He will even say that Eldridge Cleaver was a good writer. MS (01:56:51): Right? Horowitz is a brief- SM (01:56:54): Yeah. He was about the only one that he showed any kind respect for Daniel Ellsberg on the Pentagon Papers. MS (01:57:00): Actually, I spent a day with, a couple days with Ellsberg a few years ago in Ithaca, New York. SM (01:57:06): That is where I am from. MS (01:57:07): Oh, really? Yeah. I lived there for a few months in 2004. My sister lives there and I was staying. SM (01:57:14): The Cortland Binghamton area in Ithaca. That is my area. MS (01:57:18): Oh, very good. It is beautiful. It is beautiful up there. Yeah, those waterfalls. man. SM (01:57:24): Oh yes, but Daniel, there is a movie out. You probably saw The Most Dangerous Man in America. MS (01:57:29): I have not seen it, but Ellsberg to me is one of my, he is an American hero. What he did with the Pentagon Papers was outstanding. SM (01:57:39): Timothy Leary. MS (01:57:43): A guy I knew, a guy I knew a little bit personally, a flawed man, a brilliant man, a very charming man, a bit of a con artist. Ultimately, he is on my team, so- SM (01:58:07): Muhammad Ali and Jackie Robinson. MS (01:58:10): Well, two different, again, two different men, but both of them, great Americans, great athletes, both of them broke barriers. Ali refused to fight a war he thought was immoral and against his spiritual beliefs. Jackie Robinson broke the color line in baseball, as you know, and took a lot of shit for it, and great American. SM (01:58:40): Woodward and Bernstein. MS (01:58:45): I have complicated feelings about, particularly Bob Woodward, all the presidents’ men in their early reportage for the Washington Post concerning Watergate was extraordinary. Woodward went on to be a bit of a hack. He wrote a book about a friend of mine named John Belushi, comedian, actor, and the book was so full of errors of fact and insinuation and gossipy drug tidbits it after I read it, my respect for Bob Woodward diminished, so capable of great journalism, capable of bullshit at the same time. SM (01:59:39): How about Robert McNamara. MS (01:59:44): A mass murderer cloaked in the cloaked in respectability. SM (01:59:50): Angela Davis. MS (01:59:54): She is on my team. SM (01:59:57): Chicago Eight. MS (01:59:59): Well, again, my team. SM (02:00:03): The year 1968. MS (02:00:06): Oh boy. What do you want to know? SM (02:00:07): Just- MS (02:00:07): That is a long year. SM (02:00:09): That is why some young people who read history think we were close to a second civil war by that because of that year, and everything that preceded it. MS (02:00:18): It felt like it, but we were not. I mean, it certainly felt like- SM (02:00:25): Is there any one event? There is so many that stood out above all of them. MS (02:00:34): It is hard to say. I mean, there were the two major assassinations. First, Martin and Bobby, and then of course, the police riot at the Democratic Convention August. That was a hell of a year. SM (02:00:52): How about the weatherman? MS (02:00:57): Very-very flawed, but my team, and also I understand where they were coming from. They were trying to stop however wrong their methods were. They were trying to stop what they rightfully deemed was an immoral war. And I have great affection for Bill Ayers and [inaudible] SM (02:01:28): Earth Day and the Peace Corps. MS (02:01:31): Again, two different issues, but they both represent that streak of idealism that people my age, people from my generation and older than me too as well, they both the Peace Corps and Earth Day Embodied, that kind of useful idealism. SM (02:02:03): Barry Goldwater and William Buckley. MS (02:02:06): Again, two different guys. I hated Goldwater, but I came to respect him as he got older. He seemed to, these modern-day conservatives make Goldwater look like a commonsensical guy. Buckley, I think he was a racist from what I have read. I think that obviously his politics were different than mine, to put it mildly, but I will tell you something. They were a lot of interesting people back then, and he was one of them, very smart man. I actually interviewed him once for something, and he was very helpful. He was very nice. He was very polite, very pleasant, and I liked him personally. SM (02:03:10): How about John Dean? MS (02:03:11): Well, I think that John Dean was a man who grew up in public, in a sense. I do not mean, grew up from childhood, but he started at Point A and ended up somewhere else. He clearly had an epiphany that he was involved in something that was immoral and went public with it. SM (02:03:49): I am almost, the free speech movement and the Little Rock Nine. MS (02:03:53): Okay. Again, two different things, but I guess there are similarities. The Little Rock Nine, you are talking about the kids going to school? Yes. Okay. Well, obviously that was the beginning of one of the seminal events of the Civil Rights movement, and to think of these kids being at the forefront of any of a human rights movement at all. It is kind of mind blowing. It is young people that is sort of galling about mean young people today is that perennially historic, but young people have always been at the vanguard of political movements, and it is particularly any revolutionary political change, because they have the energy and the enthusiasm and often the blind foolishness to go out and do things that older people are too old to do. Well, it was the Little Rock. SM (02:05:02): The Free Speech movement. MS (02:05:03): Free speech. Well, free speech Movement was one of the things that kick started in 1960s as we know it. SM (02:05:13): And I have down here also the U2 and the Cuban Missile Crisis. MS (02:05:19): Okay. Francis Gary Powers. SM (02:05:23): First time I saw President Lie to the American Public on TV. MS (02:05:26): That was approximately what I was going to say? One of the first indications that America was not the flawless place that they told us it was U2. What was the other one? SM (02:05:41): The Cuban Missile Crisis. MS (02:05:45): Cuban Missile Crisis. Interesting. That was the first time I realized, one of the first times I realized that we could all die in a nuclear holocaust. My parents were in Florida, and that happened, and I will never forget them, my mother calling us back in New York City and her crying, are you your kids? Okay? You are all right. I think my grandmother was taking care of us. Well, my parents were away, and I realized what this was. Well, I was only seven, I guess it was actually two. I realized that I realized the gravity of the situation, and I used to have dreams. I used to have dreams of the world ending in the nuclear Holocaust. SM (02:06:48): Did you think your mom and dad might not come home? MS (02:06:51): I was wondering whether anyone was going to survive, whether we are all going to die. I will tell you something. I will tell something in the story. An interesting story when I was in was Ithaca once having dinner at my sisters, and they had some friends over, my sister is two and a half years younger than me. Her husband is about 3, 4, 4 years younger than me. There were friends, one of whom was a college professor at Cornell, was about five years younger than me, and they were having to talk about politics in general and history and different things. So I was the oldest person at the dinner table, and I went around the table and I said, so let me ask everybody this. I am curious. I said, did anybody at this table ever really believe that the human race could perish in a nuclear attack? And every single one of them all were younger than me said, no, and I realized that that is the difference. Before you said that there were early boomers and late Yes. I think that is the difference between the early boomers and the late boomers. The first decade, the (19)46 through (19)56, is that what you said? I mean, I am generalizing here, but these are all generalizations, but I think we were the ones who really understood what was at stake. I do not think that the kids younger than us had the same kind of tears. SM (02:08:46): President Obama is a boomer. MS (02:08:49): What year was he born? SM (02:08:50): He was born in (19)60. Well, he was two I think, so that would make him, he is 49 now, so I do not, that would make, well, 49, and he was just like a baby, but he is still a boomer. Right. For the terms McCarthy hearings, I already mentioned them, but what makes them important in the early (19)50s is the red diaper babies and the way they treated and the scary, the people that were communists, and it was a scary kind of a personality there that later years. Did you ever think about that man and what he did? MS (02:09:28): Sure-sure. My father, well, not a communist, was a liberal Democrat and was horrified by McCarthyism and would actually, he edited a magazine, as I told you earlier, called Signature in the (19)50s and (19)60s. Actually. It was originally called the Diners Club Magazine, and then he changed the name to Signature, but he hired writers who had been blacklisted, so he gave work to blacklisted writers, including Ian Hunter, who had won Academy Awards as a screenwriter. SM (02:10:16): Wow. The last one here is just Walt Disney, Howdy Doody, Hopalong Cassidy. It was just (19)50s television at it is finest. Hopalong was a little bit before you, Howdy Doody, went up to 1961 and Walt Disney as well. That is his, that is history right there. That is (19)50s television. MS (02:10:40): I remember Hat Duty, and I really remember Disney. SM (02:10:45): Right. MS (02:10:45): I was a huge Disney fan when I was a little kid. What does it mean to me now? Very little. It is mildly nostalgic, but it has no substance, substantive meaning to me. 2010. SM (02:11:00): You have, I wanted to ask you about your band, because, we have been talking about your journalism, your responses to questions around the generation. You talked about Kris Kristofferson, but I would like to know a little bit about your group, your band, what they are doing, and how you have been able to survive as a band all these years. MS (02:11:23): Well, first of all, I have had many bands. I mean, the most famous one was SlewFoot, but even SlewFoot. SM (02:11:31): That is what I am talking about. MS (02:11:32): Right. We broke up in 1978 or so yeah (19)78. Yeah, we broke up in 1978. SM (02:11:43): Well, what was it like being in that group those years? Because you were playing to the Boomers, what was it, does it feel different performing to the Boomer generation than it does to performing today? I do not know how you would say it, but- MS (02:12:05): Well, I do not have to, not that it is anyone's fault, per se, but people my age grew up more or less on the same music I did, so I did not to, I never had to explain things to them. Whereas younger people, a lot of my music is new to them. Not through any fault of their own, just they simply have not been exposed to it. Although, I mean, young people, some of them have good musical taste. I am not sure I know how to answer that question. SM (02:12:49): Yeah, just whether there was more of a, we call it excitement or energy within the audiences then, as opposed to now, in terms of- MS (02:12:58): I do not know. I think there is probably still energy. I just do not think the music has the same kind of quality or edge, but- SM (02:13:06): What do you think of, well you probably cannot say this either, but when the last Boomer has passed on that they do this over at the Gettysburg Battlefield, when the last survivor of the Civil War died in 1924, they have a statute form over there, but when the last maybe 50, 75 years from now, when the best history books and sociology books are written or books on the era of, what do you think they will say about this generation of young people, all young people in this case, because we are talking about those 74 to 78 million who were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and they will define them in many respects based on the time they lived. What do you think they will say about this group? MS (02:13:51): I do not think that they are going to talk about the Boomers per se, but that whole concept of baby boomers is a sociological construct. It has no bar. It has very little bearing on history. What is important is that a sizeable subset of what is called the baby boomers made a valiant attempt to turn history around, and in many respects, succeeded. That, in my opinion, is going to be in the history books forever. It is going to be looked on. I firmly believe that the 1960s and early (19)70s are going to be looked on as a kind of renaissance in human history. SM (02:14:43): Do you have any anecdotes or stories you would like maybe to mention one or two, just like the story about being with Kris Kristofferson, are there any other stories that could be educational for others? Like you mentioned John Beluchi, you knew him personally, but when Woodward wrote that book, it was full of mistakes. I did not know you knew him. Were there any other people in your music world that you worked closely with? Any stories would you like to share? MS (02:15:16): Well, there is many stories. I am not sure what you are looking for exactly. SM (02:15:22): Well I am looking, you had a purpose in writing about Kris Kris- well, being interviewed and saying things about Kris Kristofferson, what his music meant, and what he symbolized, that he was kind of symbolic of the (19)60s, and he was consistent through his life. Are there any other personalities or groups that have educational lessons based on your experiences with them? MS (02:15:53): Well, based on my personal experience? SM (02:15:55): Yes. Based on your personal experiences, just like your personal experiences with Kris Kristofferson. MS (02:16:01): I have to think about, I do not know if, I do not think that I have an answer for your question off the top of my head trying to think about it. SM (02:16:08): That is all right. MS (02:16:09): I am Sorry. SM (02:16:10): That is okay. MS (02:16:11): Yeah, do not know. I mean, lots of famous musicians, not only from my time as a musician myself, but also as a journalist. I have gotten to meet many of my teenage heroes. SM (02:16:31): Who are some of them? MS (02:16:34): Oh, well, I mean, for instance, a couple weeks ago I was hanging out with Jim Kelner, who is a drummer. He used to play with John Lennon and George Harrison and Dylan, but he would, I do not know if you would know who he is, but I am trying to think of who you would know. Who have I gotten to know? Last night I was hanging out with Don Was, who has been the Rolling Stones producer for the last 20 years. I am trying to think of who you would know. SM (02:17:06): Where are you based now? Los Angeles, or is it San Francisco? MS (02:17:10): LA. I live in LA. SM (02:17:10): Okay. MS (02:17:14): I should say I sleep in LA, but I live in New York, meaning that my heart is in New York, but my bed is in LA. SM (02:17:22): Okay. Very good. Are there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to? MS (02:17:28): No, I was not really sure what you were going to ask. In fact, no, I do not. Nothing that I can think of. SM (02:17:38): Well, that is it then. MS (02:17:40): Well, Steven, thank you. SM (02:17:41): Thanks for going over the hour and a half too. I really appreciate that. Eventually, I am going to need a good couple of quality pictures of you to be sent to me. MS (02:17:52): Okay. SM (02:17:52): But I will be emailing you on that. MS (02:17:54): Okay. SM (02:17:54): And a little more updates. I am finishing my interviews as of the end of the first week of Labor Day weekend. I am going to interview Kathleen Cleaver. She is my last interview. MS (02:18:06): Oh, okay. SM (02:18:07): And I have been told I got to stop the interviews because I have, I will have about 200 then, and that is a lot of interviews. And then I am going to be spending nothing but four solid months in hibernation, transcribing it myself. I have got the equipment. I am already, and I want to do it myself because people have told me the mistakes have been made when they hand them to other people, and then they end up having to do it themselves anyways. And then I will send you a copy of the transcript, and so you will be able to see it. And at the same time, there will be a form to sign so that I can use your interview in my book, and I will be sending that out to everybody. People said, well, you are put Mark, you should have handed this out to everybody before you even started this press, but they will see the transcript and we will go from there. MS (02:18:51): Okay. SM (02:18:53): And I really want to thank you. MS (02:18:53): You are welcome. Thank you. Who is publishing? SM (02:18:59): Well right now? Syracuse University Press is very interested. I have not, have not been going, I have been only going to university presses. I have not been doing anything with, I have not made no contact with major presses. And so as I get closer to Labor Day weekend, I have been told that this book needs to go out to more people. The University press books do not reach very many people. Syracuse University Press, I think is the one that is going to do it, but there is some issues there right now, and because of the economy, we all about the economy, and so some university presses are limited in the number of books they do on an annual basis. Now, they did not use to limit themselves, so it is not definite yet who the printer is, but I have a couple professors I am working with on this and go from there. MS (02:19:50): Okay. Well, best of luck. Keep me posted and thanks, man. SM (02:19:56): Yeah, thank you, Michael. Have a great day, and keep writing those articles. I will be reading your articles now all the time. MS (02:20:02): Thank you, Steven. SM (02:20:02): Yeah, have a good one. MS (02:20:09): Oh, wait a second. Let me ask you something. Yes. Before I, do I have your phone number? SM (02:20:10): My phone number is six one zero. MS (02:20:12): Hold on one second. SM (02:20:16): And I have a tape machine here all the time. Yeah. Six one zero. MS (02:20:19): Where are you, by the way? SM (02:20:21): Oh, I am, I am in Westchester, Pennsylvania. Just outside Philadelphia. MS (02:20:25): Steven. Oh, is it 4 3 6 9 3 6 4? SM (02:20:30): Yes. 6 1 0 4 3 6 9 3 6 4. MS (02:20:33): All right. Very good. Alright Steven, thanks so much. SM (02:20:36): One other thing. Yeah. Do you know Kris Kristofferson real well? MS (02:20:41): I know him. SM (02:20:42): Boy would I love to interview him. MS (02:20:46): You would have to go through his publicist and I do not even remember. SM (02:20:53): You email me that information if and I will. MS (02:20:56): I do not know what his public, you know what, I will email you. I do not, I am trying to think the best way to do this. I will email you somebody. You know what the thing is that I really do not have the, I do not have the, it is really not my- SM (02:21:24): I can go right to his website too. MS (02:21:26): Yeah. That is really the best way. SM (02:21:28): Do you know if he lives in LA or does he live in Burlingame? MS (02:21:32): Burlingame. SM (02:21:34): That is where his hometown is. MS (02:21:37): Burlingame. SM (02:21:37): California in- MS (02:21:38): San, well, actually he was born in Texas. SM (02:21:41): Yeah, but he went to Burlingame High School. MS (02:21:43): Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think his family moved to California later, but anyway. SM (02:21:54): Okay. MS (02:21:54): From what I know, and I do not know everything, obviously he splits his time between Malibu and LA and Hawaii. SM (02:22:05): Well, that is nice. MS (02:22:05): Yeah. No kidding. SM (02:22:09): All right, Michael. Thanks a lot. Have a great day. MS (02:22:12): You too. SM (02:22:12): Bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Simmons Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Simmons, Michael ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Simmons, Michael--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.114a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.114b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 142:16 Description An account of the resource Musician, writer, filmmaker and activist Michael Simmons was dubbed “The Father Of Country Punk” by Creem magazine in the 1970s. He was an editor of the National Lampoon in the ’80s where he wrote the popular column “Drinking Tips And Other War Stories” and won an LA Press Club Award in the ’90s for his investigative journalism for the LA Weekly. He has written for MOJO, Rolling Stone, Penthouse, LA Weekly, The New York Times, LA Times, High Times, Artillery, CounterPunch, The Rag Blog, The Progressive and Dangerous Minds and has scribed liner notes for Bob Dylan, Michael Bloomfield, Phil Ochs, Kris Kristofferson, Mose Allison, Kinky Friedman, Arthur Lee & Love and Paul Krassner. He wrote and co-produced the documentary The Real Rocky about boxer Chuck Wepner. https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6fbe2d2fd56556b3c9e1fb1fdd4ae7a4.jpg 5564a6886eda460d68d2f68127807c4e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f80337dfb556193025186af3ad2b6d97.mp3 c1e8dc7ee92d39745e4c49f80cd31d30 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-06-29 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michelle Easton Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Michelle Easton is the president and the founder of the Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute. She was appointed a position at the U.S. Department of Education previously served as the President of the State Board of Education in Virginia. Easton received her Bachelor's degree in Development Psychology from Briarcliff College in New York and graduated law school at American University's Washington School of Law. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Michelle Easton is the president and the founder of the Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute. She was appointed to a position at the U.S. Department of Education and previously served as the President of the State Board of Education in Virginia. Easton received her Bachelor's degree in Development Psychology from Briarcliff College in New York and graduated law school at American University's Washington School of Law. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Feminist Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Anti-war Movement; Baby boom generation; Free-speech; failures of the Modern Feminism; Civil Rights Movement; N.O.W."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Feminist Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Anti-war Movement; Baby boom generation; Free-speech; failures of Modern Feminism; Civil Rights Movement; N.O.W. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 122:19 Subject LCSH Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute; United States--Officials and employees; Easton, Michelle--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Michelle Easton Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 29 June 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: Well, I have to keep checking this too, to make sure it is going. So, I guess the first question I always ask is, describe a little bit about your upbringing, your growing up years, the influence of your parents, the high school years and the college years. What helped make you who you are, basically, from the early years? ME: I was born in Philadelphia, where my father was attending the University of Pennsylvania. When I was six months old, my father was recalled in the US Naval Reserve and sent to Alaska. And as soon as the doctor allowed, my mother took me and the other two siblings at that point to Seward, Alaska for three and a half years. I was real little. I do not remember much. I think I remember mostly the pictures. But I feel this kinship with Sarah Palin, because when I read her book Going Rogue, her love of Alaska, it was like mom and dad talking. They loved it so much. They would have stayed after Daddy got out of the Navy, but it was not even a state. They did not have schools. It was very, very primitive. But they loved the land and loved the people. So, then we came back to Philly. Daddy got a job in New York City, and I started school in Rye, New York. A wonderful little K-6. What you have to pay 25,000 for now in a private school. It was a time when most parents shared values. There were not all these controversies in school. And the emphasis was English, math, science, history, but a little bit of music, a little bit of art, and a little bit of PE. Life was simpler then. Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, mother was home, daddy worked. There was one more sister after, so there were three girls and a boy in the family. It was the era when dad worked, and mom took care of the kids. Dad continued Naval reserve, so he was gone one or two nights a week for that. He continued his education, getting very close to a PhD at NYU, but in the end, none of his professors spoke English, he could not understand them, and he did not get it. Wonderful, solid, all-American kind of family life. Ups and downs, always, ups and downs. But grandparents coming by once or twice a year, and aunts and uncles, lots of friends. Life centered around school and church and neighborhood. SM: Were there any teachers? I found that some people there is somebody who... You always hope when you are a young person, that there is somebody that takes an interest in you beyond your parents, whether it be a minister in your church or a preacher, rabbi, or whatever, or a teacher that sees you and kind of guides you, inspires you. Were there any teachers in your life, either in high school or at Briar Cliff? ME: Actually, the teachers I remember the most are elementary school. They were these wonderful, for the most part, maiden ladies whose lives back then were devoted to their jobs, and they were very serious about every child learning and being the very best educated they could be. Junior high school, I remember as almost a total waste until ninth grade, when they put children of equal ability in classes, because they took six elementary schools, the children of very widely varying ability and children could not read with seventh graders that were a 10th grade level. This was the modern notion that we will mix all the kids together, and then they will all learn from each other, but it does not work that way. If some children are so far ahead of others, they just have to drag along and do nothing. So that was a total waste. But then by ninth grade, they started to put us into class according to abilities. Went to a good public high school, Port Chester High School, where you could be a serious student if you wanted. Back then in New York State, we had very rigorous Regents Examinations. SM: Yeah, I am from New York State. ME: I remember getting a 90 in English in 11th grade, that was when they gave you English, and being so proud. That really meant that you knew your English. It was before exams were dumbed down and everybody did well. And it was a good high school. There were kids who were serious about school. Some of them were interested in sports. Some were only interested in sports. There was hoods, the bad kids back then. I graduated in (19)68. The hoods. But even then, the hoods did not use four letter words and curse out the teachers, it was just a tougher kind of group. And there was a huge group that did vocational education. They were not going to be able to go on to higher education, so they learned to be secretaries or auto mechanics. It was simpler. It was simpler. And I grew up in a family where my dad said, socially, there is two kinds of girls, those who do and those who do not. You can decide what kind you want to be. And most guys want to marry girls who do not, so it was not so complex. The popular culture was not such a huge influence like it is on the kids today. And then I went off to Briar Cliff, a woman's college. To be honest, I probably would have gone to Colby in Maine, I loved Maine, or a co-ed school somewhere, but my father thought that would be better for me because I would be close to home. It was all girls. It was a good program. And turned out he was right. And since I have learned that a lot of women who later have become leaders in different ways went to all girls’ schools. It is one less thing for girls to be worrying about. You go out on the weekend, and you have your social life, but I am a big fan of single sex education for those who want it. Not everybody. Not everybody. But of course, the government has tried to abolish it at VMI and the boys and the girls’ schools when the government's involved in anyway. SM: When did you know that you were going... We define women sometimes as being liberal or conservative. When did you know you were a conservative? Was there something that was happening in the world or in America that turned you a certain direction? ME: It was when Goldwater ran for president in 1964, and I was 14. It was really the first time my family had gotten involved in politics. My father, having come from a military background, tend to, at least they used to, step out of politics and be sort of neutral. But my mother and father were so excited that here was this man running for president who was articulating the things they felt about too much government taxes, worries about Social Security going bankrupt, worries about us not being strong enough militarily, basically libertarian economic policy and a sensible foreign policy, that is what Goldwater was. And of course, back then you had no talk radio. There were a couple in New York mom used to listen to, but you did not have Rush, you did not have Sean, you did not have Fox News, you did not have the internet, you did not have drudge. And really Goldwater running was the first time for a lot of Americans that they began to hear some of these conservative ideas. The campaign itself was an education. And of course, he lost quite badly, but it was really the start, I think, of the modern conservative movement, which has been most all my personal and professional life since then. SM: I still remember that being on TV, because I was always watching the... Actually, from (19)52 on, I was a little boy, I watched all these conventions. But I remember the battle between Barry Goldwater and Nelson Rockefeller and Governor Scranton of Pennsylvania. You saw within the Republican party the split, liberal/conservative. ME: Right. You did. And it remains in a way today, but not nearly as much. I mean, most Republicans are conservative, or pretend to be. SM: One of the things... I wrote this down here. What was it about your early years where you recognized conservative women were placed at the back burner as opposed to liberal women? What was the magic moment, so to speak of, when you knew that people who thought more conservatively were not getting the ear that liberal women were getting, or the breaks or whatever? Was there some incident? ME: Well, I think it was more cumulative. When I came to Washington in 1973, and it was to work for Young Americans for Freedom, [inaudible] the successors of that now. And I was conservative in a traditional philosophical sort of way, but I started to notice how the media especially, and the popular culture, gave all these praise to women's groups like the National Organization for Women and other groups later, The Feminist Majority, but they did not represent all women, they only represented left wing feminists, sometimes radical feminists, sometimes socialist views. How come they were called the women's groups when here I was, this conservative woman, working so hard? Who represented me? And to this day, you could probably open the Washington Post one day this week, and it will say, " So-and-so is very concerned about women's issues, blah, blah," and then they start to list all these left-wing positions on everything from taxes and daycare and right to life and whatever. That has stuck to this day. So, for me, I think it was going to college, coming to town, beginning to work my professional life, and hearing about the women's groups and what they thought. But it was not all women, it was only liberal left-wing women. SM: Were there any conservative women's groups at that time? ME: Well, there were a couple, but they were not as well known, certainly, and they did not get much coverage in the media. But I guess Phyllis Schlafly had begun her Eagle Forum. SM: The Eagle Forum, right. ME: That was a key one. And of course, there were many religiously oriented conservative groups within churches and denominations, but not really. And so that is how somehow, shooting ahead 20 years after I came here, 1993, when I founded this institute after having served President Reagan and the first President Bush, what is the real need? What is the real need in America? Well, it was to have an organization. And by that time, there were a couple of others that represented and promoted and celebrated these great conservative women leaders, some of whom you have at The Calendar, and used them as role models for young women. When I was in college, there were no conservative role models, except within my family, or perhaps within the church. Clare Boothe Luce was out there, but there is so many outstanding conservative women leaders who were never celebrated, who were never highlighted, who were never given as role models, and still are not in 99.9 percent of the universities, the women's studies programs. Come on, it is not women, it is liberal women. It is feminist women. It is radical socialist women It is not conservative women. They never study any of these women. They do not read the books of Ann Coulter or Michelle Malkin, they do not have Bay Buchanan come. That is why we exist. We send them to a campus so that a different point of view can be heard. SM: Just like the Young American [inaudible]. ME: Right. Our focus is solely women, there is-is more general. So, I do not know if that is a magic moment, but it was like, hey, wait a minute, these are the women's groups? They do not represent me. They do not represent the people I know, the people I work with, people in my family, people in my church. How do they get away with being called the women's groups? And it happens to this day. SM: That is a magic moment. Because you realized from your early experiences coming here, and I am going to ask you more questions about the Young Americas Foundation. Not Young Americas Foundation, the- ME: Young Americas for Freedom. SM: Yeah, Young Americas for Freedom. ME: [foreign language]. SM: Because Lee Edwards, who I interviewed a couple years back, said this group has been excluded from the history books in many respects in terms of the anti-war movement, because they were conservative, but they were against the war. And it is all about SDS. It is about the Weathermen. ME: We were against the draft. The service did not believe it. SM: I have some questions about that coming up, but I think it is important that when you were young, you saw something that was lacking, and this is a great experience for young people, and it inspired you to create something. ME: It is really true. And it reflected how lonely it could be as a young conservative woman on campus, and then even coming to town. I had lots of friends and lots of people promoting me in different ways, but not as a woman. The women's groups let you know in every way possible if you want to be successful, and they do this to the girls at school, I think, in some ways, in colleges, you either need to be liberal or you need to be quiet. And when you see the treatment of some of the conservative women, the way they scorn culture, the way they mock Palin, the way they put down Michelle Malkin, the way they sneer at Michele Bachmann, the congresswoman from Minnesota. Not much has changed. SM: One of the things when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly at the CPAC Conference, she gave me graciously an hour. I know she as very tired, but- ME: Look in the middle. SM: Yep, there she is. ME: She speaks for us sometimes too. She is 85. Look at that. Isn’t that amazing? 85, there amongst the 20, 30-year-olds, holding her own. SM: I think what was interesting is at CPAC she was very tired. I do not know if you noticed it. ME: She was tired. SM: I asked her assistant, said, "Yeah, this has been very tiring for her this time." ME: She had-had an accident about two CPACs ago, and she had fallen right before it and broken her hip. But she recovered very-very quickly. SM: Well, one of the things she said to me, she said, "The troublemakers of the (19)60s and early (19)70s are now running today's universities. They are running the women's studies, Black studies, gay and lesbian studies, Asian studies, Native American studies, and environmental studies." She was making reference that all of these studies are basically run by liberals. You believe that? ME: I do. I believe they are a way to promote liberal and left-wing ideas. And it is the way they use women, women's issues, they use women as a cover to promote left wing and liberal ideas. It does not have much to do with women at all, it is really sort of a dishonest thing that they do. SM: When we talk about the movements, we all know about the civil rights movement that was in the (19)50s and the (19)60s, and it was kind of a role model for all the other movements, and the anti-war movement too. Even Gaylord Nelson, when he was alive, when I interviewed him, said that the civil rights movement was the role model for us in terms of the teachings. The anti-war movement also helped. But what are your thoughts on all these movements that kind of evolved at the end of the (19)60s and early (19)70s? The women was based on sexism, because women were not treated equally in civil rights or basically hardly any of these movements were they treated equally. And are conservative women, and conservatives as a whole, linked, maybe not to now, but in any of these other movements? ME: I guess I would perhaps dispute that the woman's movement was based on sex discrimination and equality and law. I believe the suffragette movement, the original suffragettes, were seeking equality under the law so that men received the same rights as women. And what a tremendous success that has been. But I think in the (19)60s, as I was coming of age, what happened is that original movement for equity under the law shifted. I mean, there was an anti-war movement, there was an anti-government mood, and it shifted this woman's movement from basically what we had achieved, which was equal rights under the law, not that it's perfection, but it is the best place in the world for that, to this feminist, which was a sort of an anti-male, a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, anti-American, anti-free enterprise for sure, and that was the liberalism and the leftism and the socialism, and anti-religious, all religious people are hypocrites and bigots. It shifted the original suffragette movement, which was in fact about equity under the law, to this really left-wing movement, which was just developing when I was in college in (19)68 to (19)72. I do not know if you remember, but I remember the early feminists, the radical feminists, the thing was to take off their bras and burn them. Bra burners. Remember that? SM: I remember there was something in a Miss America Contest in Atlantic City. ME: They protested the beauty pageants because it objectified women, as if they are discussing plays like the Vagina Monologues do not objectify women. But beauty pageants were just an absolute no-no. So did the Barbie thing, too. The Barbie doll we were talking about. The Barbie doll, she is just too slim and attractive, and this is harmful to little girl's psyches. I mean, just this absurd stuff. I mean, you hear Sarah Palin talking about the beauty... she said, "Hey, it got me scholarships." She was from a poor family. She had to work her way through college. She was beautiful to boot. But the whole feminist movement shifted from the original suffragette. Just everybody nowadays supports equal treatment without discrimination for everybody, regardless of your sex or your race or your religion. So that is one movement that, to me, just morphed into something that was really not representative of most women, although they did suck a fair number of people into this notion that the most important thing as a woman is to take care of yourself and to worry about yourself. And of course, we want to worry about ourselves, but for lots of women, they want to worry about a husband and a family as well. And they said, "Well, that is really secondary to you and yourself." And for some women, they choose that. But for an awful lot of women, they want to have both the opportunities professionally and the opportunities to have a traditional family life. SM: It is interesting, I cannot remember who I interviewed, because I have interviewed so many people, I have to look at the transcripts, but I can remember one speaker mentioning that growing up in the (19)50s, women, the housewives, really were not fulfilled deep down inside because they gave up everything to raise a family. And even though they never said anything. Some were secretaries or whatever, and then they just went home and raised a family, and they could not use their skills or whatever beyond, so basically, they never spoke about it, and they kept it hidden. So, we are talking about boomers' parents now, who are now in their (19)80s or passing away. ME: Well, I know Betty Friedan wrote about that. What was her book called? SM: The Feminine Mystique. ME: Yes. And how it was so godawful to be home with children, you need to throw off the bonds and go do whatever. I know from my own family, I know my mother, I know both of my grandmothers, I know my aunts, they loved being home. They loved raising a family. Were there challenges? Of course. The notion that they were so totally dominated by the men in their life, I can tell you, they made it appear that the man made all the decisions, but my mother made a huge number of decisions in our family. But it was something that you presented to the world. "What do you think, Glen?" "Well, you decide that one mom," and say whatever. I am sure there were some women who were unhappy, but there were huge, huge, huge numbers of women who were terribly happy. They devoted their whole lives to their husband and their children, and then they would move on sometime. SM: That is my mom. ME: My mother had trouble when my baby sister left. It was really empty nest, because she did not have that many outside interests. But she developed a bridge club and this and that. She got more active in different things. But it was really hard. See, I never had that, because I never stopped working. But this notion that they all hated it is just bunk. Some of them probably did. And for them, good for you, get out and do what you want. But life was certainly simpler for a lot of them, because now you have to choose. You have the baby. And I talk to so many young women and, "I do not know what to do. I love my job, but now I do not know, we are going to have a baby, blah, blah, blah." Choices. Well, this is the freedom we wanted so much. We have got it. SM: One of the things that I am putting down here, what Phyllis Schlafly told me at my interview with her, also, when you look at the (19)50s, it is kind of defined as more of a conservative vera as opposed to the (19)60s and the (19)70s. And obviously a lot of it has to do with Eisenhower, who was the president, he was like the grandfather figure. Certainly, William Buckley was... God and Man at Yale, which I read a long time ago, it is a great book. But he was starting National Review, and so there were conservative things happening in the United States before President Kennedy came in. ME: Russell Kirk wrote The Conservative Mind, which is still read. SM: Right. And of course, you talk about Goldwater and the rise of Ronald Reagan in the (19)70s and the (19)80s. And I interviewed Ed Meese too, because I wanted Mr. Meese to talk to me about his work with Ronald Reagan in California, not his presidency, in California. I learned an awful lot from him about those years, about law and order, against the welfare state, and those kinds of things. Can you talk about what happened? We're talking about the end of the war, we are talking about these kinds of major things still happening, that there were a lot of conservatives, that seemed like a conservative era. I do not blame it all on John Kennedy for the change. ME: Well, remember, I was... SM: ...Blame it all on John Kennedy for the change. ME: Well, remember I was 10 in 1960, so I was not that much into it until about (19)64. So, the question is what happened then in the (19)50s and (19)60s to energize conservatives? SM: Yes. ME: I think it was a mix of things. Again, I was a little girl, but I do think that people started to get disturbed about the growth of government. Even back then Goldwater used to talk about the national debt. Lord, is not he turning in his grave looking at our debt right now? I think that, and I have heard people in my family talk about this, when they had the end of World War II and they split up Europe and you had the communists, I do not think that people at the time thought that was forever. And I do not think, from what I read, it was not Churchill. He did not think that was for decades and decades. It was just a way to set things up post-war. I think that Americans were sort of horrified by the oppression. The oppression in communist nations of so many people. This was supposed to be a temporary fix after the war. I think that Buckley starting the National Review was caught on that in both the foreign and in the country. Eisenhower interestingly was a little bit ahead of his time. Do you know he appointed Clare Booth Luce; the first woman ever named to a major ambassadorial post? He named Mrs. Luce our ambassador to Italy. This was the first time. So that was always sort of interesting to me because you always hear about this guy as not much of an exciting guy, but that was really key what he did. And now you look, and of course the ambassadors, many of them are women. The funny thing was that when she went to Italy, she said the first thing she had to do was hire a wife because the ambassador's wife plays such a critical role in running the embassy and the social. So, she hired Letitia Baldridge, who later became a social- SM: She has done a book. ME: Yes, she has done a lot of books. She loved Mrs. Luce. She is still with us in Washington. And Mr. Luce had by then, sort of semi-retired from time, and he would come and spend six to eight months a year in Italy with her. But she needed a wife. I always loved that. But Eisenhower was smart enough to name a beautiful, smart, philosophically sound woman to a key post like that post-war. I always give him credit for that. SM: Yeah, that is interesting about him. I remember the golfing. He would go to Gettysburg and you see that... You have been there. The little three... The little hole he has there. ME: And Mamie. Mamie people nowadays sort of snicker at Mamie Eisenhower. But from what I have read and heard; she was a power in that family. SM: I always have to check this. What is really amazing about Goldwater too, and this is the thing, I will always remember that here is this man who ran for president in 1964 and got clabbered by Lyndon Johnson, but he was a very distinguished senator. In the end, he and Hugh Scott were the two men that walked into President Nixon's office and said he had to resign. ME: Right. Because- SM: [inaudible] story. ME: ...He had integrity. SM: Yes. ME: He had integrity and that is a rare quality these days. And whether it is people lying about what they are going to do when they get on the Supreme Court or lying about what they are going to do when they are President. They run as moderates, and they come in with these left wing plans. Integrity is a very rare quality and Goldwater did have it. SM: Yeah. Integrity, you raised a very important point because in higher education, Arthur Chickering, one of the gospel books or the Bible books of higher education is Education and Identity. And the seventh vector of development is integrity. Students should always be striving for that ultimate, which is integrity, which is being comfortable with who you are and standing for something. ME: Right. And this is something I teach my kids. I mean, we all make mistakes. You go through life, but you have to show integrity. You have to be honest with people. You have to be honest with yourself. I do not know how you live with yourself when you are a liar. Lots of people are. SM: Well, I am a firm believer that you could pay a higher up. ME: I think you are right. SM: This is very important for me because even though I interviewed Lee Edwards on this and I have had other people talk about it, and I think Tom Hawkin, I interviewed. He was one of the leaders of the Young Americans for Freedom. And I think he has a book coming out pretty soon. He said he has. And he is a Vietnam vet too. But please describe the Young Americans for Freedom in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s. They were activists and they were against the war in Vietnam. How did they start? How big were they? Describe the students and what was their goals and purposes and accomplishments. I think we need to know more. I would like to see a book written about it. ME: Actually. I think Ron is doing one. SM: Is he? ME: It is a detailed one about the history of a former board member, Wayne Thorburn, T-H-O-R-B-U-R-N. Ask Ron. They might even let you see the draft or whatever it is in. It is in that state. SM: It is fantastic that he is doing that because nobody has done it. ME: Nope, nope. He has spent a lot of time on it. Wayne Thorburn was the executive director of YAF when I came to town in (19)73. Also, when Ron came, we both worked for him at Young Americans for Freedom. But I never heard of YAF until about (19)68, (19)69. There I was a freshman at Briarcliffe. I think there was a brochure. Somehow a brochure was on the table, and I picked it up and it described a group that was founded at William F. Buckley's home. And of course, I had been a fan of his from watching Firing Line and we got National Review at home. I do not know what it cost, $10 to join or something. So, I filled it out and sent it in. Before long, I got a call from somebody who wanted to come and see if I was interested in going into this and that. They had different meetings, and I did go. I was personally not ready for leadership then. I was feeling my way. I was learning what I had to learn. I was developing my personality. What happened for me was my junior year, I went to the University of London. This would have been (19)70 to (19)71. This was before Margaret Thatcher. This was Socialist England. Some people are sole learners. I had to see socialism. I had to see how it brought everybody down. I had to see how me, a relatively rich American when I broke my toe, went and got free medical care. Some hardworking ditch digger was paying for my medical care because it was free in England. I had to see it to understand the virtues of our then, anyway, free country, smaller government where people took more responsibility for themselves instead of looking to government always. So that was another magic moment for me, a year abroad in Socialist England. So, when I came back my senior year, that is when I got really active in Young Americans for Freedom. I brought in a speaker to college. I went to the different conferences and events. I read more. And then when I graduated, I was offered a position. My first position after college was at Young Americans for Freedom. So, I did not get that involved until I got back in August of (19)70, (19)71 and so that final year of college. And actually, then the young conservatives had it with Nixon because he had sold out to China, Red China and he was expanding the government incredibly. And so, for that election, we had a group called 72 Youth Against McGovern. What are young conservatives going to do when the presidential candidate is so disappointing? And so, we had Youth Against McGovern, and actually, that is where I was stuffing a mailing down at the New York YAF office on Jane Street in Greenwich Village; that is where I met my husband, and he was going to Fordham grad. We became friends and then he came to Washington then I came to Washington. But YAH was an alternative voice on campuses that were dominated by the left. When I started college in (19)68, that was the year that they shut down Columbia. They were blowing up places. Even at Briarcliffe, there was this ridiculous little contingent who shut it down for a day or so, right around exam time. And I remember thinking, of course, it was great not to take exams, but here we are paying this money and these stupid nitwits, and you are talking about a privileged brunch of young women who went to Briarcliffe shutting down the school and enforcing their views because they know best. And this is so typical of the left of Obama and of many of the feminists, they know what is best for you and we need to shut this school down for a couple of days to make our point about whatever, instead of really listening to what other people have to say. It is a kind of arrogance. In recent times, I remember when they had the healthcare summit and you had President Obama sitting there and you had Republicans and you had Democrats and everything in his body language, in his face, in his tone of voice was I really know best about Americans' healthcare. And to me, that just was so symbolic. SM: Would you say the other Democrats like Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, even Harry Truman, would you put them in the same- ME: Not as bad. SM: No? ME: No. It has gotten really bad. It has gotten really bad. This particular administration, I am certain he is a one-term President, but to me, it typifies what we saw in the left on the college campus at the time that YAF grew so tremendously. It was this arrogance that the left-wing way is the best. We know what is best. We are going to shut this down. We are going to blow things up like it or leave it. Bill Ayers, Obama's good buddy, we are going to blow things up because we know what's best. No contrition. To this day, no contrition out of Bill Ayers. SM: I know that Mark Rudd, who I have interviewed, has written the book Underground. I do not know if you saw that book. He admits some mistakes that were made by the Weather... He is not going to change anything about SDS, but- ME: No. SM: Yeah, going to violence, he has said that was wrong. It destroyed our organization. I do not think the other, Bernadine Dorn, has even... She is married to Bill Ayers. I do not think she has said anything like Mark Rudd. ME: Right-right. But I mean, this is sort of... To me, YAF was the alternative to this arrogant left-wing insistence that they knew best about everything. And then over time, it became a more positive thing promoting conservative ideas. And maybe it was that from the beginning. I mean, as I said, I was not involved until 10, 11 years into YAF. SM: I hope when your husband writes this book about the Young Americans for Freedom, that when he is talking about that particular organization in the (19)60s and the (19)70s that he brings in the important college students that a lot of students were not going to SDS, they were not going to the Black Panthers, they were not going to the women's groups. There were large contingents of students that were... I hope he really does that because when you read the periods, it seems like it is more liberal. It is all about the liberals and the activists. ME: But I mean, do not forget back then, that is all we heard about. Because other than human events and National Review and a couple of conservative talk show hosts, the whole media was run by people who were disagreeing with conservative ideas. They are all still there, but we have different outlets now. They have not changed. Listen to ABC, NBC, or CBS one night. You want to pull your hair out. That is how I feel. I listen sometimes just to get motivated. But now there are other outlets: internet, talk radio, and Fox. So that has changed. They have not changed at all. SM: See, what happens is that in all of these groups here, for example, in the gay and lesbian students or movement, Stonewall, in (19)69, then the Environmental Earth Day in 1970, then you have... Well, you have Black Panthers started and SDS. They all have these starting periods and how important they were and how many people were linked to them. Maybe it is because they are more visible. Were the Young Americans for Freedom they trying to be more invisible, or the media just did not... ME: The media just ignored them totally. They got away with it. They pretty much ignored what Goldwater had to say. They would characterize him as a cowboy. He was going to blow up the world. He had such a wonderful platform. So many good ideas about things that people started talking about seriously. The country would not be nearly in the pickle it is right now. He never got any coverage. It was so dominated by the left. SM: How about when Bill Buckley had that first meeting in the creation of the Young Americans for Freedom was there any kind of coverage for that? ME: I am sure there was not except in National Review, perhaps. SM: Those early students that started coming... I mean, that in itself would be a book. ME: Right. I am sure there was not. I mean, it was total dominance. We have a video on our website of Clare Booth Luce in about (19)64, I guess. I think it was during the campaign. And she is being interviewed by I think Eric Sevareid and some other lefty. And they are just incredulous, astonished beyond belief that she would suggest there was any bias in the media towards Barry Goldwater. You can find it on our website if you want. But I mean that was so typical. Not only did they not cover anybody, and did they pick on unfairly on conservatives, but then they denied it. And some of them to this day still do. She was fighting the good fight. One thing we love about her, she was so lovely, so gracious, so intelligent, and feisty. She would stand up way back then when the ladies were not on TV for the most part. But they just denied that there was any... Oh, they laughed at her. SM: Would you consider her kind of what Eleanor Roosevelt was to the Democratic Party is what Clare Booth Luce was to the Republican Party? ME: I consider her much better. I consider her much smarter, much more articulate, much more influential, and grossly ignored. It is one of the reasons we picked her. Well, partly because there was really no contest. There was nobody that did as much as she did from (19)44 through the end of her life. Well, before (19)44; this was when she did the keynote. Because they never studied her, they never talk about her. The women's studies do not even acknowledge the existence of such an extraordinary woman in that era who influenced so many things. Eleanor Roosevelt, they give her all kinds of credit for all kinds of stuff. Nobody in universities or in most books give Mrs. Luce credit for what she did. SM: The only person that I can remember that kind of stands out in the (19)50s was a female when I was young was Margaret Chase. ME: Yes. And she was a senator from Maine, and she was very distinct. SM: There you go. Yep. ME: We looked at Margaret Chase Smith when it came to the naming the institute because we wanted to name it after an individual woman, somebody that young women of this era could relate to. And she was elected. She worked hard. But her life compared to Mrs. Luce's; she was the playwright, wrote the [inaudible] still being produced to this day. She was an ambassador. She was a congresswoman. She was the editor of Vanity Fair. She had a long marriage to Henry Lewis and I am sure that was a challenge. She had a daughter. She had stepsons. She had a deep spiritual life. She became a Catholic at a certain point in her life actually when her daughter was killed in a car crash. It was terrible, terrible. So, you look at all those dimensions to her life and then you look at Margaret Chase Smith, who was a lovely accomplished woman. There was no comparison. There was no contest. There was no woman like Mrs. Luce in modern American history in the modern conservative movement. There was no contest. So that is why I went to her family and asked permission. The lawyer said, you do not have to ask the family, but smart. So, I did. And her stepson, Henry Luce, who was heading the Luce Foundation was the son of Clare's husband as sort of this gruff fella. And he said, "Well, I do not agree with what you're doing, but she would like it so you can use the name." SM: What would you say... And a lot of people do not like the term boomer, but what would you say that Clare Booth Luce's life meant to the post-World War II generation that they may not even be aware of? ME: Well, I think she was a wonderful role model for a woman who wanted to enjoy traditional life and professional life. And who was proud of her religious deep spirituality, who loved her family, and had this amazing career all at the same time. She is a role model. I mean, that is why we picked her. Now, the truth is you did not hear much about her because the left and the liberals so dominated the media. And that is one of the reasons we talk about her a lot here, especially with the young women because they never hear about her in college. Never. SM: I know a lot of conservative women that are at Westchester University. They graduated and... Actually, a lot of them never even said whether they were liberal or conservative, but- ME: Because it is easier not to. SM: But now they have graduated, you see on their Facebook conservative. They came to everything to learn. But I did not know they were conservative or liberal. But when you look at these periods when boomers were alive, in your eyes, could you define them in your own words? Either through experience or just studying and knowledge of history, what do these periods mean to you? The period 1946 to 1960. ME: I mean, in 1960, I was ten. So, I mean, that was an era when Americans were so relieved that the war was over. I know my own parents started their family. They settled in the Levi Towns. The guys went to college on the GI Bill. It was a time when America was happy at being America without all the questioning. We had won the war. We defeated the tyrant. The settlement was not so great in the way they divided up Europe. But it was a calmer time. It was an easier time. It was a time when schools, the public schools, it was so much easier for parents because people shared values about what it was they wanted the schools to teach their kids and you did not have all these raging social controversies. Not that there was perfection, there were still challenges. There were children who were not well cared for. There were wives and husbands who were not happy. But it was a simpler time. And I think it was post the chaos of the World War people were happy to be safe and prosperous. Taxes were fairly low. Government was reasonably small, although it was starting to creep up there. And so, it was a calmer, quieter time. And certainly, my childhood was probably typical. SM: Well, before we get to the other periods, one of the negatives about the period, two of them, is that the television of the era really hid the racism that was happening in our society. ME: Yes-yes. SM: That it was basically all White people on television except for Amos and Andy in the early (19)50s, which was a slapstick. And Nat King Cole had a program like 10 weeks- ME: That is right. SM: ...In the middle (19)50s. And then the second thing was the McCarthy hearing, which was the fear that everybody was a communist and people... ME: Well, I am just reading about Sandra Bird in the Post at lunchtime, and I mean he led the filibuster to prevent the Civil Rights Act from passing. I do not think I'd have been with Senator Bird on that one. I mean, I was a young adolescent at the time, but there were an awful lot of people in the Democrat party who were opposed to the kind of changes. And of course, the Republican Party came out of the Civil War and the people who wanted to have freedom for the slaves. So, it is interesting how that is all twisted around in some ways, although there are some interesting candidates coming to the fore now. SM: That is the criticism of President Kennedy because if anything, he was a pragmatic politician. Before he ever started linking up with the big four: Dr. King, Jane Farmer, Wilkins, and Whitney Young. It is what kind of effect is this going to have in my Southern Democrats who basically- ME: Right-right. But then the residual effects of that today are absurd like in Virginia, you cannot... When it comes to primary elections, any person can vote in any of them. That is a residual effect of the Civil Rights Act saying that if you had to declare a party, it is stigmatized in a racial way. I mean, it is ridiculous. What happens around here is the liberal Democrats come and vote for the liberal Republicans in the primaries or the more liberal and they skew the elections. And that is a crazy leftover. SM: You can see a direct... I asked this to James Spanos too. Do you see a direct link between what we are seeing today in Congress between Republicans and Democrats and what happened in the (19)60s? Because a lot of those people that are in Congress are boomers from that era. Some are older that are World War II generations. The majority of them are boomers or Generation Xers, which is the group that followed boomers. ME: When you say what happens in Congress, are you talking about the dominance of the liberal and the left? SM: Yeah. Well, no, it is just that they do not talk to each other. There is dislike, there is no trust between the other side. They have these meetings, but it's all show. People are frustrated with both parties. ME: Right-right. Well, I remember when the Republicans took over the Senate whenever that was way back, and they basically equalized the numbers with maybe one or two extra on each of these committees. I was looking at the judiciary committee that is looking at Kagan. I think it is like 12-7 or something. I think that from my observation, the Democrats rarely seek fairness. They seek power. They seek absolute power whereas when the Republican... And then the other thing the Republicans did when they took over is they cut budgets of committees. So, I mean, I do not see equal blame here for the current incivility. I see a kind of arrogance and we are in charge now, Harry Reid and Pelosi, this despicable kind of arrogance. We are running things so we do not have to talk to you, which they both literally said as the root of the problem, not that the loyal opposition is speaking up. They are supposed to speak up. And if you watch this Kagan hearing going on now, you see an awful lot of courteous but hard questioning from Jack Sessions from some of the others. You see a courtesy. I remember when Bork was up and they pulverized him. SM: I remember that. ME: It was brutal. It was personal. It was unbelievable. I do not see that as much on the Republican side. SM: I think Alito had some pretty rough ones too. ME: Yep. I remember they went after... It was the Post, really. But the way Robert's children were dressed, I do not know if you remember that. That to me was the ultimate sneering because they were dressed in pastel colors. It was this little boy and this little girl, and I thought, "This is just too absurd." I mean, this is so uncivil. SM: Well, just your thoughts again on this period between 1961 to 1970. How do you read that period? [inaudible] thoughts. ME: I do not know, 11 to 20. It was turmoil. You saw the left, certainly in the schools and the universities. The anti-war movement you saw that developing big time during the (19)60s. I mean, Goldwater was defeated in (19)64. And then the conservatives started to get together and act more strategically. The left was just loving its power and the anti-war movement. We talked about how the woman's movement at that point shifted more from equality in the law [inaudible] to this hating man, hating America, hating religion, hating faith, and female solidarity. That was the thing. But it was only liberal and conservative female, not conservative female solitary. I remember when one of my favorites is when Kay Bailey Hutchison was running for senate in Texas. Gloria Steinem, the grandmother of the feminist movement, attacked her viciously. She said, " Hutchison is a female impersonator. She looks like us but thinks like them." See, this was the woman's movement that was developing in the (19)60s. You cannot be a good woman unless you were a liberal or leftist. And it ties back to when I had my eureka moment; who are these people? They do not represent me. This was the (19)60s. This is what they grew into. When I was in college, they were sort of burning their bras. They were not running it yet, although most of my professors were liberal. SM: What about the (19)70s? Is that just a continuation of the (19)60s? ME: These are good questions. I mean, I have not thought that much about it. I mean, to me personally and professionally, it was building up to Reagan. It was losing different things. SM: That might be it. ME: Yeah-yeah. SM: Although some people say up to (19)73, it was still the (19)60s. ME: Maybe. Could be. SM: I think those first four years were really the same. ME: I came to town and then we had Watergate. We were working away. We were also discouraged with Nixon. Anyway. You had Goldwater. You had the man of integrity on our side saying you need to resign. In (19)76, I took off work. I went down to Florida, worked for Reagan. We lost big time. Remember two to one, Tommy; he said we were going to win two to one. We lost big time. And Reagan lost at the Republican National Convention by a few votes. But it was sort of in the hands of God because then we had Jimmy Carter and then the nation was ready for Ronald Reagan. So, it is interesting how things work. SM: How about the (19)80s? Because that is... A lot of people say it was Ronald Reagan and George Bush came out at the end of it. ME: We had a financial problem in the country, so we cut taxes and we let the money go into the private sector. And guess what? In a year or two we were out of it. If only Obama could think of that and could see that. And then the (19)80s was tremendous growth. I mean, this area here in Northern Virginia and tremendous growth all around Dulles Airport here. All these computer companies, the private sector, Bill Gates, computers. And I remember early in the Reagan years, I had a big deal job, and I had a computer, and I took a course. But you know what? There was no reason for me to learn how to use that computer because I did not need it at my job. I come here, I start this institute. I got to do the computer. I got to do the word process. We keep all our donor records on it. I mean, there is a huge increase in productivity because of the boom that came with the growth of computers and technology. So, the (19)80s were fabulous growth years. I give credit to lower taxes and the flourishing of business by leaving them alone. Leave them alone. SM: Would you consider the (19)80s bringing back the military because the military had gone really downhill in the... Well, the (19)70s. ME: Yes. Right. The people would spit on the returning Vietnam veterans. But Reagan had a great reverence for the military. And as President, he really was a leader in that sense and he would highlight them and honor the military people, as many Americans had always done anyway. SM: When Ronald Reagan... He did not say in a speech, but it was a feeling. It was ambience. It was just an aura about him. It was a perception of we are back. And that was something that he set up very early in his administration. What did he mean by that? We are back. Was that strictly about the military? Was that pride of- ME: I mean, I do not remember specifically saying it, but to me, it would mean the time-tested values that made America great, which are acknowledging the wonderful productivity of people and businesses left alone, families keeping more of their own money to spend it on their children and whatever they want in the way they do. America becoming a leader in the world, defeating the Soviet Union. We outspent them. We did more military than they did. They could not keep up all those communist nations with those people held captives for all those years with that Roosevelt-Churchill agreement were freed. Well, I went on a cruise over there a couple of years ago. Those people love Ronald Reagan. You go up to anybody in the street. They love Ronald Reagan because they are free now. So, we are back: freedom, families, celebrating faith. He did celebrate faith. SM: Do you think the most well-known quote from him is tear down this wall? ME: It is a good one. When I was president of the Virginia Board of Education, we had standards of learning in history. I got that in there. They may have removed it since, but I had to barter with the Democrats to do that. SM: Just to have that in there? ME: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. See, they dominated. SM: That is part of history. ME: It did not matter. It was so political. These Democrats are so political. We had a board of nine- So they were so political. These Democrats were so political. We had a board of nine, five were Democrats, four were Republicans, at that point. And so, I had to barter. I had to give them some stupid [inaudible]- SM: When you think of the (19)90s, of course, we're thinking of the latter part of George Bush's, number one, and Bill Clinton. ME: That is right. That is right. SM: So, what are the (19)90s statement first? ME: Well, I remember the day he made the announcement that he was going to raise taxes. I was working for him. And I called in the staff, said, "That is it. We're out here." Oh, no. People will understand, blah, blah, blah." No, they did not. They did not. It was breaking faith with the Americans. He said, "Read my lips, no new taxes." And he was a good man. He seemed to have integrity in different ways, but that was it for him. And then we got Bill Clinton, what a grotesque character. But in the end, he put his finger in the wind and he did some things with the budget. Of course, he was living off of all the glorious success of Reagan and Bush and their policies generally. So, the country was still growing. They were able to balance the budget because the military budget was way down, because we had won the Cold War. But on sort of a personal social level, what a grotesque character to be. I mean, people say the certain behaviors of teenagers now, they take it back to Bill Clinton saying, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." These kids are saying, "Well, that is not sex to be doing this to each other. That is not sex." I do not know if it goes back to Clinton. SM: And then of course, the 10s is George Bush, number two. ME: Right. Right. SM: And Obama has been here a year-and-a-half. But [inaudible]- ME: Right. I mean, George Bush, number two, kept us safe militarily. He reacted very well after 911. Nobody was ready before 911 to do the kind of things we needed to do to keep those wicked terrorists out of our country. He spent too much money. He did not veto enough. I think he did his best, but he was a tremendous disappointment to conservatives. And then Obama ran as a moderate. Americans like to give somebody a chance. I cannot tell you how many people I know who are fairly conservative say, "Well, I want to give the Black guy a chance because that shows in America anybody can be president." And now, most of those people have turned against him, totally, because he's not governing as a moderate. SM: I know on Newt Gingrich and the Republicans came into power in (19)94, and I have read, I think it is also in his brand-new book, Newt Gingrich talks about that era when boomers were young, or the (19)60s and (19)70s, and a lot of the problems we have in our society today go right back to that period. And he was making reference to the drug culture, the lack of morality, certainly the divorce rate- ME: Newt is talking about this? SM: Yeah. I know. I know. It was basically he was just making general statements. And George will also, at times in his writings, will make judgements or commentaries going back to that period. But a lot of the reasons why we have had problems in our country, it goes right back to that time. And they were making reference to I think the kind of the countercultural issues that we were going through at that time. ME: Right. SM: Just your thoughts on- ME: I think that some of that is true. I think that this, I remember in the (19)60s it was, "If it feels good, do it." And the reference, of course, sexually. SM: Right. ME: And so, then a lot of folks, mostly educated folks, figured out that was not such a good idea. But a whole segment of society just bought into it. And isn’t it like something, 40, 50, 60 percent of children, urban children, are born without a married mother and father. And so, that I mean, I do not know what it is from. But it seems to me, that it makes sense that it came from that, "Oh, just do whatever you want." But educated people of greater economics figured out, "No, this is not the best for kids or for society." But there is just huge chunks of society now, especially at the lower end economically, who just they have the children without marriage. And the children suffer, and the families suffer. It is a terrible cultural situation. SM: A lot of people, very critical of Lyndon Johnson on that because they say he created the welfare state. ME: Right. SM: Do you think that is a pretty strong statement? ME: No. I think it is true. And I think that at times, some of the rules that rewarded mothers for having more children without husbands, if they had a husband, then they would be off the assistance program. But if they did not have a husband and they had more children, they would get more money. I mean, I think all the incentives were perverse. And I think this whole notion that we help people when they are down, sure. But not for decades, and decades, and decades. You help people a little. And then of course, the government takes so much of our money that although Americans still are the most generous on the face of the earth, privately, people could do much more if they were not paying 20, 30, 40, 50 percent taxes. So, the government steps in, it encourages behaviors which are harmful to children and families by its idiot policies. So, yeah. I mean, I think that Lyndon Johnson and what he meant to do to help people, in effect, it really did not help. It hurt a lot of children, a lot of families all over the country. And the results we still see today. SM: Did Ronald Reagan try to fight that when he was in? Because- ME: Yes. Yes. SM: ...correct me if I am wrong, there were two things that he built his reputation on in California. It was he was going to be tough on students who try to shut down and disrupt universities. ME: Right-right. SM: And number two, was to end the welfare state. ME: Right. And he tried. But who signed welfare reform? It was Bill Clinton. It was a Republican Congress. And in the end, he signed a federal bill that forced states to make people go back to work instead of just staying on welfare year, after year, after year. Now, I feel sure that I have read Obama has changed that back. But it was Bill Clinton who signed welfare reform, which was so interesting to me. He was not nearly as ideological as either Hillary or Obama. SM: People think Bill Clinton was kind of a middle of the roader. ME: Right. But I mean, I think it was not from conviction. It was just whatever seemed to work right. SM: Oh, when did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion? And when did it end? ME: The (19)60s? SM: And what was the watershed moment? ME: Well, for conservatives it was the Goldwater nomination and election, (19)64. Because it coalesced us around a candidate who, well, like I said, in my family, it was the first-time mom and dad said, "Anybody running for national office was really articulating their beliefs about taxes were too high." People have gotten so used to high taxes. And I remember reading Wall Street Journal while I was serving and it said, and it was a few years ago but, "Most women who make less than their husbands, most women, their paycheck goes to pay taxes." Is not that outrageous? Most of what women make in families when the husband makes more than the wife, pays the taxes. Now, this is just wrong. This means taxes are too high. And so, I think Goldwater was talking about this. I know my dad, he worked very-very hard. He would always work against the school bond increases. I mean, he was paying taxes that were just sapping our family. We had four kids. Mother did not work. She took care of the family. So, that was back in the (19)60s. Goldwater was finally a national candidate saying this. And so, for conservatives, yes. Even though we lost, we can have a national voice. And then Reagan and different people. So, that was the watershed, I think for conservatives in the (19)60s. SM: That was the end, when did it end, the (19)60s end? ME: I do not know. You were talking about (19)70s. I am not exactly sure on that, to be honest. I was in school (19)68 to (19)72. I had that year abroad. That opened my eyes to what socialism is. I am not sure I have an answer when it ended. SM: But the beginning of the (19)60s and the watershed moment were Goldwater? ME: Yes. SM: Why did the Vietnam War end, in your opinion? Just your thoughts on that. ME: Why did it end? SM: Mm-hmm. ME: It ended because the Congress did not appropriate the funds they needed. They were winning. They were doing wonderfully well. But they were sick of the war. Americans were sick of the war. It is going to happen in Afghanistan, you watch. We have to choose our wars in a better way. We have to get in and get out. I mean, George Bush understood this. The first George Bush. The second Bush pretty much got into Iraq, and we finished that up. I do not think Obama has a clue about these kinds of strategic matters. I mean, when he announced the big thing in Afghanistan, I remember thinking- SM: That is a year-and-a-half, it is going- ME: What? Nobody ever wins in Afghanistan. The Russians do not win. The invading... Centuries pass, nobody wins. SM: Alexander the Great did not win. ME: That is right. That is right. But I do not believe that Obama has very much breadth and depth of knowledge about foreign affairs. And I think our country is in peril. I think what will happen is he will give up in a year or two. Those people will be in a terrible way. We will pull out like we did in Vietnam. Anybody who helped us, they will send to reeducation camps or kill them. Vietnam was such a disgrace for our country to end it that way. After 50,000 lives. I do not know if you knew anybody that died, but I sure did. SM: Oh, I do. ME: Just young, idealistic men who went to fight the war. We could have won it if we would have had a little more guts. But we never should have started it, and it was LBJ, remember, that greatly increased our presence there, if we were not going to finish it. SM: Yeah. And I have read so many books on Eisenhower, and Kennedy, and [inaudible]- ME: Right. You know what? In my mind, Vietnam ending was the helicopter on the top of the embassy. SM: April 30th, 1975. ME: It makes me emotional when I think about the ambassador. You remember him? He was the last one to get on. And I remember his face was so distraught because we were leaving so many behind, Vietnamese who had helped us. And he could not take them all. And it was the last copter. And I also remember Gerald Ford, who I never liked anyway, that day he was getting off a plane somewhere and he literally ran away from the media, so he did not have to answer questions about this disgrace that had just happened. But I think it was Ellsworth Bunker, was that his name? SM: Yeah, Ellsworth Bunker. Yes. ME: Right. SM: He was, yes. ME: And it was the saddest sight. And all these people on the ground trying to get up there. And we just abandoned them. We abandon the horrors of reeducation camp. SM: I know that the ARVN, which was South Vietnamese Army, they were throwing their uniforms away, hoping that the North Vietnamese would not know that they had been in the service. ME: Right. There was no hope for those people. So, many of them tortured, ruined. What a disgrace. What a horrible thing. I hope it does not end that way in Afghanistan. But I have very little faith in Obama. SM: I have been talking about the boomer generation. But what term would best define this group that was born after the war? Would you say, I just have a couple of them, the Vietnam generation, the protest generation, the Woodstock generation, the movement generation? Is there a term that you would use to define the 74 million that were born after World War II, what they define as a boomer? ME: It is interesting. Because I think you gave five terms, and four of them were for the left. Woodstock. SM: Yeah. ME: The last one was the movement. SM: Yeah, movements and Woodstock. That is a counterculture. ME: Maybe it is dominance. Dominance in expression by a very small number who had their lives in the political world, and in the media, and in the popular culture. Americans, I have always thought most Americans at core, pretty conservative about stuff. But they do get sucked in by Obama types. They do get tired of wars, especially when it looks like we are not winning them. But I mean, it is a great country with great people. And there is a small number of lefties who have had tremendous success in dominating policy. Much, much more than they should based on their numbers or the logic of their positions. So, I mean, I know all those terms. And they are valid. They describe certain groups. SM: Right. ME: But maybe it is the silent majority. Maybe that is what it is. Is that when we talked about the silent majority in the (19)60s? I do not know. It is just the people that just go to work, they pay their taxes, they raise their families. SM: That is a Nixon term, the silent majority. ME: Yeah. Right. Well, that would have been what, (19)68 to whatever. SM: Yeah. And I know the Silent Generation is what they define as the generation before the boomers, which was not the Greatest Generation. ME: Right. SM: It was that five- or six-year period, almost like the Korean War people. But a lot of those people were really involved in the anti-war movement. ME: Right. Right. I mean, the left dominated. But they were not dominant in numbers. SM: I am going to read this. I will get my glasses on here. Because you worked for both President Reagan and President Bush. Within the boomer generation, something about Ronald Reagan. He is revered by some and despised by others. Why? I know in California he stood for those two things that I talked about. And that obviously, people that lived in California at the time knew what he stood for when he was running for president. Just your thoughts of why... I am being impartial on this. ME: Right. SM: Because I am a Democrat. And I am more of a liberal. ME: Right. SM: But I really like Ronald Reagan. ME: Right. SM: And I am not going to put that in my interview. ME: Right-right, right. SM: But I just do not understand why he just draws the ire of so many people when he was basically a decent human being. ME: Right. First off, I do not think he is as widely despised, even by some of the worst despisers now, since his death. I think it was so interesting. He was sick. He was sick for a while, and then he died. And the reporting on Reagan, even from the liberal outlets, was so interesting to me that it was much more positive than I would have thought. Okay. So, I do not think he is as despised now as he was. But I think it is what happens when somebody is so clear, and so plain, and communicating, in this case, conservative ideas. And people just get enthusiastic just listening to him. It is almost like with Sarah Palin, a little bit of what you saw. And the people who disagree in terms of policy are so angry, are so angry at the effectiveness. I mean, Ronald Reagan was the most effective communicator we have ever had in the country. And people just love to hear him and listen to him. And they say, "Yeah. Yeah, that is right." Democrats and Republican. Well, the Reagan Democrats. And I think that just makes sort of the ideological left is so angry. And that is why they despise him because he is so effective. SM: Are you upset with Sarah Palin though? Because I even have read that Republicans are upset with her by saying that she wants to meet Margaret Thatcher to get her support because she was close to Ronald Reagan. And somebody said, "The nerve of her to put herself in the same league with Ronald Reagan." I mean, it is some Republicans are furious about this. ME: There's some people who do not like her. I was talking more about Sarah Palin during the campaign. I mean, what a vicious stuff with her kids. And there's a viciousness towards her. I do not know if it is because she is a beautiful, conservative woman. I do not know that she is ever going to run again, to be honest. She is enjoying the success with her book. SM: Right. Right. ME: Going all around the country. She has got all these kids, this great life in Alaska. People do not want to leave Alaska because my parents did not want to leave it. But I do not see her saying, "I am in the same category with them." But I will tell you, I have been in crowds when she is speaking, and I see a similar enthusiasm for what she has to say. It is a plain common-sense way of articulating ideas that most people believe in, like Ronald Reagan did. She has that ability. She has the ability to get everybody on their feet cheering at a dinner, at a rally. There is not a lot of politicians... John McCain sure did not have it. Obama had a lot of charisma. But I mean, I am not saying she is equal to Ronald Reagan in any way. But I am just saying the hatred, the viciousness, that you saw about Reagan, that you saw about Palin, especially during the election. I think it has to do with anger that they're so successful at articulating these views. And people just want to hear them. SM: I kind of wish, and this is off the cuff here, but I kind of wish that we had the politics of a Tip O'Neill and a Ronald Reagan. And to be able to have a diehard Democrat and a diehard Republican and to be able to be friends. ME: Yeah, it is true. SM: That is what we need in Washington. We need Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill types. ME: But I mean, it has become ugly and bitter. And to have a healthcare bill like that that Republicans did not even see until the day before they were voting on it, I mean, it is insane. That is some kind of a special arrogance. Well, they did not want them to see it because they would get opposition to it. SM: Right. ME: But this is a crazy way to run a family, to run a Congress. SM: We made a reference to Betty Friedan. What is the difference between feminism and radical feminism? I have noticed in my interviews that the radical feminists really do not like or have really problems with Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan because they are not radical enough. They are mainstream feminists. ME: Yeah. SM: And a lot of people believe that radical feminists are running the women's studies programs, not the feminists like Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan. ME: Right. Right. SM: And basically, what are your thoughts on Betty Friedan, people like Betty Friedan. I got a group here. Bear with me as I read these. ME: Right-right. Okay. SM: Your thoughts on Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, Eleanor Smeal, Kate Millett, Germaine Greer. These are all liberals. ME: Right-right. SM: Susan Brownmiller, Rebecca Walker, Winona LaDuke, Robin Morgan, Susan Johnson, and I think Andrea Dworkin, and Alice Walker. These are people- ME: I mean, you... Go ahead. SM: These are people that are defined as liberals, but they are different in their approach. ME: But I mean, there is so many different strains there. That Andrea Dworkin. I mean, she had an unhappy life with men. And she was basically a man-hater. Lookism, anybody who looked good, this was really a bad thing. There is a lot of different strains in feminism. What I do when I teach the young women workers about it is I just use the words of their leadership. Gloria Steinem, she is a female impersonator. That says it all to me. This is what she said about a conservative woman running. There are some conservative women who call themselves feminist of a sort. They call themselves equity feminist. And that goes back to the suffragette idea of equal treatment under the law. I cannot use the word feminist to describe now. But people say, "What do you mean? You got your, well, you are a professor. You are a feminist." No, no, no. It is like the word gay. Gay is not children playing Ring Around the Rosie anymore. Gay is homosexuals and sodomites. SM: Right. ME: Well, to me, feminist is a word they have taken. I mean suffragette, okay. I am okay with that. But they have taken, and it means sort of this man-hating, this disparaging anti-conservative woman, discouraging anybody who does not toe the line. Anybody who talked about life is totally unreasonably, a million babies a year. No problem. So, I mean, to me, you hate to lump them all together. But most of them are pretty radical to me, based on what they say and what they have written. SM: Yeah. Yeah, and their books are very popular books. Most of them are very popular writers. ME: Right. SM: Some of the younger ones. The two younger ones are Rebecca Walker and Winona LaDuke. I mean, they are power brokers. One's Native American. ME: Yep. Yeah. SM: And I mean, they are very popular on college campuses. ME: Right. SM: The other thing too is that when you talk about the politicians, yeah, the Geraldine Ferraro, the Elizabeth Holtzman, the Hillary Clinton, Tipper Gore, Susan Molinari, Pat Schroeder, Lindy Boggs. Those are people that really define I think the Democratic Party as females. ME: Right. They are hardworking. They are smart. But they are extremely left-wing, every single one of them. SM: What are your thoughts though? I think of the women's studies and certainly Black studies and some of these programs started, they were all challenged in the beginning for their academic, certainly Black studies because it is happening on college campuses, but all of these studies programs were developed because their history was not in the history books. ME: Right. SM: Howard Zinn has written the alternative history. Just your thoughts on that. ME: The fatal flaw to all of these is their lack of intellectual diversity. They do not teach Thomas Sowell. They do not do Clarence Thomas in Black studies. They only teach certain Blacks. SM: They do teach Phyllis Schlafly though. ME: Well. They teach her to ridicule her, in most cases, in women's studies. They do not teach her in a fair and even hand. I have never heard about it if they do. They do not have them read Ann Coulter. They do not have them read Michelle Malkin. They do not have Star Parker, turned her life around. It is a lack of intellectual diversity that makes them all lack integrity. But it is typical, frankly, no offense. But typical of the university environment. I went to four years of law school at American University, graduated in (19)80 when Reagan was elected. I had one conservative professor in four years. That is a disservice to me as a student. All the legal policy issues, we only heard them from a left-wing point of view. All the money we paid, that is a disservice to students. And these programs, that is their fatal flaw. It is a lack of intellectual diversity. SM: It is interesting because I worked with Pat a lot. ME: Yeah. Right-right. SM: And he brought a lot of conservatives to the campus. ME: Right. But this was extraordinarily unusual that a professor would work at the conservative group to have different points of view heard. SM: Well, I love Pat. I said to Ron, I said, "You got a great young man here." Not only because he was at Penn State, but we need more of it. And we need to find more people that are willing to bring in these points of views. Because now it is even more so. It is all about the bottom line. So, if anything is brought in that will threaten the bottom line, I think that is a major issue, even for conservative speakers. So, there is a lot of liberals that are giving money. I mean, if a conservative speaker comes in and it is going to threaten the bottom line and what money's going to be donated, that is wrong. Education is primary. It is number one. ME: Right. Right. SM: It is not about the bottom line. ME: Right. SM: Why did the ERA fail? Because of- ME: Because Phyllis Schlafly got millions of moms who had never before been active to go up and complain and say, "We do not want this. We do not want unelected judges deciding things the state legislators ought to be deciding." And she activated millions and millions of, a lot of them were housewives, just women who had never before been active in a policy debate. And you got to give her credit for that. How amazing. Not only did she beat it back, but she had a number of states rescind their original. I remember in Virginia going and testifying, way early in the (19)70s. I do not think Virginia ever passed it. But it was almost a Ronald Reaganesque to bring people into the process who previously had not been in. And the truth is, Obama did that in a way too. A lot of people, especially African Americans who never voted, who never cared, they got excited about this guy. SM: See, I like Obama. But I do not like the people around him. And I think he had brought into his administration too many Clintonites. ME: Right. SM: And I think it is really hurt him. And I think he has gotten bad advice. A lot of people do not like his body language. And there is a lot of things they do not like about him. And certainly, the Bill Ayers thing. ME: Right. SM: That has been discussed behind the scenes because I have friends over at the [inaudible]- ME: But I mean, whoever advised him on this oil spill ought to be shot. SM: Yeah. And, yeah. ME: The Jones Act was suspended. Have the partnerships, whatever. SM: Yeah. Yeah. I just think, talk about, who was it to talk about firing people? Forget, was it you or Bill? He needs to fire some of his people. ME: That is right. SM: And I- ME: Well, a couple are starting to go, but- SM: ...do not like his chief of staff. ME: No, I do not. SM: I do not like his chief of staff. ME: He is so crooked. He is so crooked. SM: And I think it's hurting him. ME: Here is something else. I probably should not say this on tape. SM: Well, I will be editing all this. ME: Okay. I think Obama is going to be brought into this Blagojevich thing. I think that he was involved. I think that- SM: Well, the governor of- ME: Right. Selling his seat. I think Rahm has sort of taken the fall for it. I think that Obama is corrupt in a financial way. And just Mark, where is that? Take it out of there. [inaudible]- SM: Well, I am amazed though that this guy's still not in jail. But anyways. ME: I know. SM: Might ask also, what were the most important, as a lawyer, the most important legal decisions that have taken place for say boomer women during this time frame? Could be all women. I said Roe vs Wade seems to be the big one. And then cannot take away Brown versus Board of Education, which is for everyone. Would you say those are the two most- ME: I would. SM: ...important legal decisions [inaudible]? ME: I would. And I think that our grandkids and our great grandkids are going to look back on the pro choices with the same scorn that grandchildren of slave owners look back on their grandparents for owning slaves, and Dred Scott, and all that. I think they're going to be horrified at the number of children who have been killed prior to birth for no good reason other than just convenience. Yeah. I think, I will probably be dead, but my kids and my kids' kids will see an incredible scorn heaped on these pro choices, who are any time, any place, anywhere, any how it's fine to kill the babies. Yeah. SM: Yeah. Let us- ME: Those are the two I would pick. Those are the two cases. SM: Yeah. And I interviewed Susan Brownmiller last week in New York City. ME: Right. SM: And she said, "Certainly Roe vs Wade." And she said there were other decisions too beyond just the Brown versus Board of Education. But those two kinds of stand out. I already asked you who Clare Boothe Luce is. ME: Yeah. Amazing lady. SM: Are your thoughts on the best writers of the (19)50s and (19)60s, beginning, I would like your thoughts on the beat writers. The beat writers of the (19)50s were kind of the role models for many of the activists of the (19)60s on the new left because they were anti-authoritarian. That is Ginsberg, Kerouac, Cassidy, Gary Snyder, Ferlinghetti, Ann Walden, Leroy Jones. These were the writers. These were the beatniks, the beats. And some people have told me that the (19)60s really began in the (19)50s when they wrote their books. And Howl, that historic book that Ginsberg wrote in the middle (19)50s that was banned, and on the road, they-they were very influential in creating amongst, at least the red diaper babies, who were the group that many of them became the new left. They were important. ME: Right. SM: Because they were anti-authoritarian. ME: Right. I was a little girl in the (19)50s. And in the (19)60s, I cannot say that I read that many of those. But I think in the (19)60s, if you just listened to the TV, and the radio, and read the papers, you could absorb their liberal ideas, anti-authoritarian, if you will. I cannot say that I have read many of those, to be honest. But I am familiar with the names. And maybe it was some of the writing in the (19)50s, Russell Kirk, Bill Buckley, and others, that brought us to '64 and Goldwater. So, maybe it takes 10 years for books to be ingested. SM: You mentioned Buckley, God and Man at Yale, is a classic. ME: Right. SM: And I have encouraged every student to read it, no matter who they are. ME: He wrote that one, The Unmaking of a Mayor. I think it was like (19)65 when he ran for- SM: I think I have that book. Yeah. ME: ...mayor. What a wonderful book. In fact, I do not know if my husband told you, but that is the book that made him a conservative. Because he had a professor, a high school teacher, who said, "He is the most dangerous person next to Hitler in the history of the world." So, Ron went and read the book and he agreed with everything. He was in Catholic high school. SM: One of the greatest debates I have ever seen, because I have got it on YouTube, is the debate of Malcolm X and William Buckley over- ME: Yes. SM: I mean, and I love Firing Line. And I liked any of those shows because of the fact that he brought on really smart people. ME: Right. SM: And he brought on people that he did not even like. ME: That is right. SM: Philosophically. But they were friends. [inaudible]- ME: But he liked to debate. SM: ...was a friend of his. ME: I know that. I know. He had Clare Boothe Luce on at one point. They had a wonderful discussion. Because she defended feminism, but it was the feminism of the suffragists. SM: Do you have that on tape? And where is Firing the Line? Are they going to be allowed to be shown on public broadcasting? You do not see them. ME: I do not know. I do not know. I am trying to think. I can check on that. SM: Yeah, that would be interesting to check on. Because all you see on YouTube are these snippets of about five minutes. ME: Right. Right. SM: And you do not get a gist of anything. ME: Yeah, it was a wonderful show. And it showed sort of an openness to discussion debate, which is what most of us want, especially at the university. Let us hear all sides. SM: Yeah. Well, we had Buckley on our campus. It was great. ME: Yeah. Yeah. SM: And we had a reception with him. And he signed a million different books. But I asked him about the time he had Allen Ginsberg on, because he thought Ginsberg was- ME: Right. SM: ...kind of a flake. ME: Right. SM: And you could sense he was kind of a flake. And then at the very end, he respected him. Because this flake that he thought was a flake, well, then he answered with really in- Well, then he answered with really in-depth responses, and then in the flight business [inaudible]. ME: Yeah. No, no, no. There is a lot of thoughtful lefties. The other one I remember is when he had Gore Vidal on and Gore Vidal called him a Nazi, and then Buckley we called him a fag or something and it deteriorated, but I do not know if that was Firing Line or some other show, but that was unusual for Buckley. He kept it at a certain level. SM: Two classic books of the period was C Wright Mills in White Collar, which was a book that really explained the IBM mentality of the 19(19)50s and I think a lot of boomers went against that kind of mentality. Daniel Bellow interviewed up at Harvard a couple of weeks ago. He is pretty up there in years now. SM: There we go. SM: There we go. SM: And Daniel Bell wrote The End of Ideology, which I think is a great book too. I do not know if I asked this earlier, but you were too young, but what are your thoughts on the free speech movement at Berkeley, because it happened in 64 and 65, and it was really about the right of free speech? ME: Well, I am all... SM: On the campus itself, and that kind of was the beginning of all the protests really. ME: I am all for free speech, but now it's conservatives that need free speech and in fact, conservatives of some campuses have free speech clubs because they're not allowed to express conservative views for the most part, because it may not be politically correct, whether it's about racial preferences or views about homosexuality or whatever. I am all for civil free speech. We do not have to go after each other personally, but now on most campuses, it's conservatives that are seeking free speech. You go into a woman's studies course and try to have free speech, I mean, the occasional professional might allow it, but most will not. I mean, I hear this from the girls. They do not know ... Most stay away from the women's studies. My own son at Catholic University had a feminist professor for communications course, and so he wrote a straightforward paper about communications. She gave him a C and said, "RJ, you really have to study this more carefully." The next paper I gave him some of the stupid, the Patriarchy is oppressive to women. It was about advertising the car ads, and women are subjugated under their heavy hand. In the paper he wrote this stupid stuff. She does all these checks, " RJ, now you understand," she gave him an A. This is in my own family. He was on a scholarship. He needed the A, so he wrote these idiot papers for the whole semester. She gave him A's. Who needs free speech, huh? SM: Well, yeah. I have been in higher ed for thirty-something years and that... ME: I am sure you were a wonderful professor who welcomed different points of view that were reasoned, but an awful lot of them do not. SM: Yeah. My greatest conversations were in my office over the issues you are talking about. I just say, "Well do what they did in the (19)60s. Protest. Challenge the vice president of student affairs." Anyways, who are the great conservative women that you are talking about? Of course, I know about Clare Boothe Luce. What makes some of these people today... ME: Well. SM: Were there any others besides Clare Boothe Luce and Margaret Chase Smith, this... ME: She had a saying, Mrs. Luce, and in fact, we have it on our newsletter. I should get you one. It is called the Luce Ladder. "Courage is the ladder upon which all other virtues climb," something like that. What makes them great? First off, they are smart, they are beautiful, they are articulate, but they have the courage to stand up and say what is perhaps politically unpopular. That is Bay Buchanan on immigration. SM: I know Bay real well. ME: That is Carrie Prejean. She gave an honest answer. She is not a politician. Her thoughts about traditional marriage, Michelle Bachman, everything. I mean, she is tough. S.E. Cupp, she is pretty new. A star says welfare hurts Black families. Phyllis, we just talked about her, ERA. I mean, it is courage. It is the courage, and this is what we do here at Clare Boothe Luce. We try, not everybody is going to be up at the podium, giving the speech arguing professor, but whatever venue women are comfortable in, we try to give them the courage, the background, the depth of knowledge, the encouragement to stand up and defend their own conservative beliefs. Courage is the key. SM: Well, I think that they need to be seen more on college campuses, because that is what the (19)60s were about. ME: That is right. SM: The (19)60s were about standing up for what you believe in and if you understand the definition of integrity, integrity means I know who I am. I know what I stand for, and I am willing to stand up in front of an audience, become vulnerable and stand up for my beliefs, even though I may be attacked. ME: Right, and I mean, if that is what the (19)60s free speech movement was about, what a sad commentary on where we are now. SM: Yeah. That is what it was about. ME: Yeah. Let us have all points of view. Now, I was not for closing down the university for trashing the professor doing defense research, his office, that kind of thing, but different points of view, sure. SM: I noticed that you had a couple speeches that you give the listings of your speeches, and one of them was the failures of feminism. ME: Right. SM: What are the failures of feminism? What are they just real quick? ME: Well, the modern radical feminist movement, the greatest failures that they do not represent the use of most women. The leadership based on their own quotes and the things they have to say, too often, they mock women who choose to be full-time mothers. Not all of them, but enough of them do. They criticize women who do not toe the line, certainly on the life issue or the choice issue, whatever you want to call it. I mean, they are brutal about that. They do not represent women. A lot of them, I mean, when you go downtown to NOW and you go into the office, National Organization for Women, I will tell you what is going to be on the big table in the front. About a third of it will be about AIDs, about a third of it will be about lesbianism, and then the other third will be about abortions. I mean, they have really narrowed the focus in a lot of ways or go to their website or go to the feminist majority. I mean, lesbianism, AIDs, and abortion. This does not represent women. SM: That is interesting because Susan Broma was almost said the very same thing as a liberal. ME: There you go. SM: She said that she tried to raise the issue of pornography within the women's movement and Feminine Mystique... I forgot her name, Betty Friedan. ME: Yeah-yeah. SM: Would have nothing to it. No, we are not going to be talking about pornography. ME: Yeah. Well, that is interesting. SM: Yeah. I have that on tape, and it got very frustrating, she said. Also, you mentioned here, comment on your speech, "Women's studies, conservatives not welcome." I think you have already gone over that. Did you have any gap with your kids, any generation gap at all with any of them on issues? ME: I had three boys. The biggest challenge for my husband and I was the social pressures on the boys to do things that were not acceptable, but they all turned out okay. They all go to church. My mom and dad lived across the street for years, and I took care of them like you did yours. My kids were so respectful and so helpful to my parents, and that was wonderful for them. They turned out pretty conservative, but we did not really beat it into them. One of them is really an active conservative. The other two are just kind of go about their business. No, I mean, it was the social pressure. It was the drinking. It was all the friends doing marijuana. It was the sexual promiscuity, but we got through it. They are all in their twenties and they are all doing well. SM: That is good. You did not have any generation gap with your parents, did you in any way? ME: No, but some of my siblings did. I loved them. SM: Yeah. ME: I got along with them. When you were a teenager, they would get on your nerves, but my father moved down here and he said, "Do you think I could move across the street?" And I said, "Well, it would be fine with me, but check with Ron," and Ron said, "Sure." I mean, I got along with him, but I know not everybody does. I feel truly blessed to have had him. SM: The other thing, I got just about four more. ME: Okay. All right. SM: The issue of the term empowerment. We had Tom Hayden on our campus several years back, and he wanted to know if the students of student government, what kind of power they had. They were talking about that they were empowered. They said, "Oh, yeah, we can control the budgets and give out money to student organizations," but there is something that Tom said, "No, I am talking about empowerment, where you have a voice and everything." Empowerment is a term that is defined by activist students in the (19)60s, in the early (19)70s, not power, but which term do you like best? Empowerment or power? Because empowerment is really a (19)60s term that came out all the time. Students always said, "I want to be empowered. I want my voice in the decisions that this university makes." It was much more... ME: Aren’t they different? Aren’t they different subjects? The university president has power, okay. SM: Yes. ME: He has a tremendous amount of power to make decisions. The head of your department has a tremendous amount of power. Hiring, firing, or whatever tenure. Empowerment is, to me, it is somebody who feels they do not have power and they want to have a bigger voice. SM: Yeah. That is what the (19)60s was about. ME: Right power, to me, is sort of more absolute. Empowerment is having a little bit to say about this and that and being listened to. SM: Do you like the term empowerment then with respect to women's issues? Like the conservative students? ME: I am for power myself. SM: Well, that is all I need to hear. The issue of healing, and we took a group of students to Washington, DC in the mid (19)90s, and they came up with this question. We met with Senator Musky. ME: Oh, yeah. SM: About six months before he passed away. ME: Oh, yeah. SM: And we thought he was going to respond about the year 1968 because he was the nominee for the vice president. The question was this, that the students came up with, "Due to the divisions that took place in the (19)60s between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who were for the war and against those who supported the troops or were against it. Do you feel the boomer generation, those born between 1946 and (19)64, are going to go to their graves like the Civil War generation, not healing from the divisions of that time?" The question is really, do you think that many within the boomer generation that were involved in the activism are having issues that they have not healed? ME: No. I think most people move on with life and life is what it is. We certainly change our views on different things. I mean, think about when you were 16, and then when you are a parent with your own kids, and it is life that changes and heals you. You are tired of your parents saying this and that, and then suddenly you are a parent, and you have kids. It is a part of the growth and development that we all go through in life that makes us heal because it just moves on. SM: Do you think though, if Safers had Phyllis Schlafly sitting here and Betty Friedan, not Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem is next to her, that the divisions that they have had, that they can heal between their divisions, is that practical or? ME: I mean, does heal mean agree or just be civil? SM: Just be civil. ME: Yeah. I think they could be civil. SM: Yeah, because there is a lot of lack of civility today. ME: Oh, Bay here does TV shows with some of these lefty women, and I will not name names, but she... SM: Yeah, she is really good. ME: She has told me that they will sit in the green room and talk about all the common things moms and wives talk about, and then they go out and- SM: Okay, that is good. ME: But I do think that women, there is always stuff we can talk about. Men too, whether it is sports or whatever, but women talk about husbands, talk about children, whether you are lefties or not. I mean some anyway, so you find the common ground and you do that with your neighbors. You do not talk politics, or we do not. We talk about the kids or the street or the shrubbery or whatever. SM: I think that that war in Vietnam really divided this nation in so many ways and that some people have said, you need to rephrase the question. Those who were against the war and those who went to war, because I think there is still some things going on there that really... ME: Yeah, but I mean, we have had these subsequent wars, and we have had 911, and we have had the fall of the Soviet Union, and even people who may be opposed, the war supported it, these other things have changed them. So healing, yeah. SM: How about the issue of trust? Because a lot of the students of that particular period, I do not even say them, the conservative students too, especially the young Americans for freedom, is they did not trust people that were in positions of authority that were running the war. I mean, a lot of the students of that era did not trust anybody in a position of responsibility, whether it be a priest, rabbi, minister, vice president of student affairs, congressman, senator, you name it, President of the United States. Anyone who is in position of authority, I cannot trust. Do you see that as a negative within the generation, or? ME: No, I think it is a great thing. Look at the tea parties. Believe me, these are people who do not trust those in authority. I think skepticism about government is always a good thing, and people in authority questioning is a good thing. SM: Yeah. That is what political science majors are taught. ME: Yeah. SM: Not having trust for your government is healthy. ME: Absolutely. SM: It means liberty is alive, and well. ME: The founding fathers did not have trust. SM: Yeah. ME: That is why they got all these different protections. SM: Yeah, that is pretty much... Finally, here I have, what do the following mean to you? And these are... ME: Oh, trust, but verify. That was the other one. SM: Oh, trust but verify. Yes. ME: Trust but verify. Okay. SM: Yes. ME: Okay, you can go ahead. SM: There is something else that Ronald Reagan said that I have always kind of lived with. If you are not afraid to let someone else get the credit... ME: Yeah. It is amazing what you can accomplish. SM: Yes. ME: And that is true. SM: It is important. ME: Absolutely. SM: That is a great quote. ME: I do that every day here at Clare Boothe Luce. Give them the credit. SM: What do the following mean to you? What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? ME: Well, it means the controversy because the architect was opposed to the war, and many people felt that her design was not noble and what it should have been to honor those who lost their lives, but I know a lot of Americans go there and very much appreciate seeing the names of their loved ones. SM: When you went there for the first time, what is the impact that had on you? ME: I did not go. I have not gone. SM: You have not gone yet? ME: No, I do not. I will be-be too emotional. SM: Yeah. I go to about ten times a year. ME: It is like, no, I have not been in the Holocaust Museum. This place would give me such nightmares, I know. Somebody was talking about it the other day. I do not watch movies that are really horrible. It is just my head, the way it is. Stuff goes on and on and on in my head. It is like, life is too short. SM: What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? It was a major event in 1970. ME: It is like, who shot first? What a horrible thing, but there has been some stuff out recently that it was not the soldiers who shot first, but what a horrible thing that should not happen on college campuses. It was such an incendiary time. It was such an emotional time, but if I am a soldier and I am shot at, I am going to shoot back. Who knows who shot first? SM: I know that there is a tape out now that they're bringing a revelation that the National Guard was given orders to shoot. They are revealing that. The March on Washington 63, what did that mean to you? SM: Civil rights? SM: Yes. Dr. King, that great... ME: If only we would have listened to him. "Judge my children not by the color of skin, but the content of their character." Excuse me, what are we calling affirmative action, huh? Aren’t we judged by the color of the skin? If only we would have listened to him. SM: Yeah. I know the purpose of affirmative action. If you talk to an affirmative action director at a university, they will say is that we do not want to have affirmative action. That is the goal, but they still have it as far as... ME: All these years later in the Supreme Court cases. In fact, I have got a black girl as an intern this summer. Vincy Ann, native of Cameroon, now she is a citizen. She said, people come up to her on campus, she goes to Truman State, and say, "Well, you must be for affirmative action." She says it drives her crazy. She is studied, she has worked hard, she has gotten to college. It is such a negative thing for achievement-oriented minorities. SM: It is interesting because Steven Carter, the great professor at Yale who wrote a book on affirmative action and says, in the beginning of his book, every time I go into my law school classes at Yale, I know the students are looking at me saying I got here because of affirmative action and that is real sensitive to him because he earned it because he was smart. ME: That is the downside of it. We had a friend who was at Georgetown, a Black kid, and teachers would come up him, how are you? He said it was so condescending. He was at law school there. SM: What is 1968 Chicago? That convention, what did that mean to you? ME: A bunch of rowdy criminals. SM: Do you believe that happened in our country? It is just like.. ME: When I see this world, the money economic things, sort of like rent a riot, rent a mob, what a horrible group. People that got stuck in those crowds and were afraid for their life. I mean, that is no way to behave. SM: How about Woodstock in (19)69 and the summer of love in (19)67? They get the real counter cultural events. ME: A bunch of people who, I guess liked music but dirty and having sex out on the ground and drinking and drugging and no thanks. SM: How about the hippies and the yippies? ME: Yeah. SM: Hippies and yippies. ME: I mean, not people I especially admire. SM: How about the students for democratic society before they became the weatherman and the weatherman... ME: Before they came radical, they were a point of view. That is a fine thing. SM: And the weatherman need... ME: Right. Blowing things up. SM: Yeah. What about the Black Panthers? Did you... ME: Well, I know this last election, there was a Black Panther standing outside the Philadelphia polling station with a bat to discourage certain people from voting and Eric Calder, our attorney journal, said, no, I am not going to look into this. SM: I know. That is the new Black Panthers. ME: I mean, I think they are violence prone and probably not the best vehicle to promote racial harmony. SM: How about the Vietnam veterans against the war in 1971, they threw their... ME: John Kerry. SM: John Kerry, but he was a mild one compared to most. ME: Right. We took care of him with sweep up veterans. SM: Bobby Mueller was in that group, I know that. I think Ron Kovic was in the group. ME: Right. SM: Actually, Bobby Mueller was not. He made a point of saying I did not become a member of the Vietnam veterans against the war. ME: It is a point of view. It is fine, but I do not think it played too well with the American people. When Carrie... A story was told over and over. SM: How about Earth Day 1970? ME: Everybody loves the earth, the land, take good care of it, but it's become a religion to some of these folks. Especially in the schools with the little kids. Cannot talk about God, but they have this religious fervor about recycling. SM: How about NOW? National Organization for Women. ME: What a pathetic excuse for a woman's group. They are just hostile to anybody who does not toe their line. They do not support the women. Often, they will support the man if he is a more left-winger. Do not call yourself NOW. This is great American conservative women. Say what you are. The national organization for left-wing liberal feminist women. Say what you are. Do not pretend. SM: Wouldn’t it be great to be able to bring these individuals together with the other side and really have a two- or three-day learning experience? This is what I want to do. I have only got two more questions. This is what I want to do, but after my book is done, I want to bring people together. I am going to start something where I am bringing people together. I just talked to James Fallows, the symposium about the Vietnam War with the General Wheeler and Bobby Mueller and Sam Brown and Susan Jacobi. I said, "Wouldn’t it be great to bring you guys back together from after 1975?" ME: I think it would be. Make sure [inaudible] there so everybody can watch. SM: Well, I would like to bring these people together because first off, I have worked with so many different speakers, and this is all about education in our students. ME: It is. SM: This is about the future. ME: Right. It is about hearing all kinds of different ideas. SM: Stonewall, which was the major event for gay and lesbians in (19)69, any thoughts on that? Because that was the rallying crime for... ME: Not really. I mean, the truth is there has always been homosexuals since the beginning of time, and there always will be. In terms of the movement, for a long, long time, what they talked about was people ought to be tolerant. You know what? Most Americans are intolerant, but it has shifted from tolerance to, I want you to affirm what we do, and that is what most Americans resist. Tolerant? Sure. I mean, I do not want to know what you do at night, but then do not get on my face and say, "You need to say that what we're doing is a really good thing," because I am not going to say that, and that is the division, and that is the problem with the movement. SM: I think the one area is the American Indian movement because they were here first, and that is a very sensitive issue. They have always been in... Dennis Banks was... ME: Right. SM: And of course, Alcatraz. Taking over the Alcatraz in (19)69 and the violence at Wounded Knee, but just your thoughts on the Native American movement, because... ME: They are right. They were here first, but go around the world and how many countries where the people that were there first no longer run the show? For American Indians, I mean, if there was ever an example of how the government can ruin a whole group of people by paternalism and over-involvement, it is the American Indians and the reservations and the massive failures that the government intervention has had there and the terrible problems they have. Alcoholism, that, I mean, the casinos, I guess, have helped them in an economic way, but is that a beautiful example of too much government in the lives of a people? SM: Yeah, I know. So, the Latina, everybody thinks the Caesar Chavez, but it's much more than that because the young Lords were kind of copycats to the Black Panthers in the late (19)60s. I know in Newark that was the case. ME: Yeah. SM: The Watergate. ME: Yeah. SM: What is your thoughts on Watergate? Took an administration down. ME: What a stupid thing. Dishonesty, but what I always think about with Watergate is the contrast between Nixon when he was quartered and Clinton. Nixon resigned and it was over Clinton. It went on and on and on and on. He was impeached. He was not convicted, but it went on and on and on. This is the difference, the two men. People love to hate Nixon, but to me, Nixon cared more about the country than Clinton because he just got out. It was over. Was what Clinton did any less bad, lying under oath, blow jobs with the girl in the Oval Office, all that stuff, than Nixon? No, but what they did, the way they reacted when the whole country was in such a turmoil about it, that says something to me. I give Nixon more credit than I do Clinton. SM: Two last questions. The music of the era, just from the experience that you have had with conservative students, not only now, but back then, the music was part of the culture back then, and it was also might have been identified more with the liberals as opposed to the conservatives. When you talked about the folk music, the rock music, the Motown sound, and the messages that were in that music, did you identify with that music? ME: Sure. I mean, I danced. I liked it. I sang. SM: Were you a Beatles fan, like everybody? And how about Bob Dylan? ME: I want to hold your hand. Not as much Dylan. SM: Joan Baez and the [inaudible]? ME: No, not as much the folk. I mean, different tastes. My husband's a Stones fan. I do not know if you know. SM: Yeah, Rolling Stones. ME: He argues they are basically conservative. They think about the tax fan and all that, but I think that the music then was tame compared to some of this rap music about the hoes and raping the girls and all this kind of stuff. I mean, the worst they would get was the leader of the pack and I do not know, going to the drive-in movie and it was sort of tame. SM: What do you think, I know it is very difficult to say this for 74 million people, but when the best books are written on a particular era, it is normally 50 years after an event. A lot of the best World War II books have been written, are being written now. What do you think when the boomers have all passed away? This is a little longer, and what do you think historians and sociologists will be writing, because they will not have been alive when the boomers were alive. What do you think they will say about this baby boom generation that grew up after World War II and the events that shaped them in their time? ME: Well, it is all compared to what, I mean, I think they will say that a lot of us worked really hard, did what we believed in, raised our families, paid an awful lot of money to the government that wasted it in taxes, did our best, the technology boom, we were part of that. Freeing millions of people from communist oppression, and they will talk about the mistakes. And I am not sure what that will be. It probably would be electing Obama is one. Say we repeal healthcare and a couple of other things, which a lot of people want to do. They will talk about those things, and whether it was right or whether it was wrong, but I think that historians will write kindly. SM: Do you think they will say what the issues that we are facing today with the economy, this attitude that many of the boomers had that I want it now, I need it now. The students, these young people, conservative and liberal, grew up in the (19)50s when parents wanted to give them everything. They wanted to make life better because they grew up in the Depression and experienced World War II. Even in the African American community, that was, well, even though it was more stable in the (19)50s than it ever was in the (19)60s. Do you think that want it now mentality, even though in a very analytical way, is a reason why we're in some of the problems we are today? Because the people that run the world today are really boomers and the oldest of the generation X-ers, which is the group that followed them, ME: I am not sure want it now is the reason for the problems we have. I mean, you look through history. The problems we have now, throughout the centuries, people have had it. Different times, different circumstances. I am not sure I would attribute it to the boomers want it now. SM: Do you think that the Susan B Anthony's and the Elizabeth Katie Stanton would, if they were to see what was happening today in America, and the women's movement would be right with your... ME: I do. SM: They would be here... ME: On abortion, they were a hundred percent for life. SM: See, that is something that really should be brought up within the women's studies programs too, so that everybody sees clearly. Is there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? ME: No, you asked a lot. In fact, I wondered what is he going to ask? SM: Well, thank you very much. ME: Well, thank you. SM: Let me at... (End of Interview) Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michelle Easton Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Easton, Michelle ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute; United States--Officials and employees; Easton, Michelle--Interviews Description An account of the resource Michelle Easton is the president and the founder of the Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute. She was appointed to a position at the U.S. Department of Education and previously served as the President of the State Board of Education in Virginia. Easton received her Bachelor's degree in Development Psychology from Briarcliff College in New York and graduated law school at American University's Washington School of Law. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.187a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.187b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 122:19 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3da53d4495bf65739fc0873a6d356e9f.jpeg ca3dcb70061d7047ca44d038b2a0628d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9b61ce827dd22b1266a24478fab5afea.MP3 f858b5dcb62a58c33231ad307ac1bb0b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12 April 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur De Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Midya Khudur Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:30 minutes Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Midya was born in Mosul and lived there until 2002, before the fall of Saddam Hussein. She then moved with her family to Duhok and has been living there ever since. She came to the United States in the fall of 2018 to study at Binghamton University and get her Master's degree. Keywords Childhood; Mosul; Duhok; Kurdistan; Kurdish Diaspora; Kurdish Culture; Language; Kurdish Dialects; 2003 Iraq War; Saddam Hussein Language English Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Midya Khudur Interviewed by: Aynur DeRouen Transcriber: Joseph Seif Date of interview: 12 April 2019 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 AD: We are recording. So today is. We are good. Today is April 12, 2019 and we are here uh talk to Midya. Midya for the record can you give us your full name? 0:22 MK: Yeah, my name is Midya Khudur, um. 0:26 AD: And can you briefly tell us where you are from, and since you are so young, you would not mind telling us when you were born and where? 0:38 MK: So, I am from the Kurdistan region of Iraq, but I was born in 1992. I first born, I was born in Mosul and then my family went to Duhok to the northern part of Iraq in 2002 before the fall of Saddam. And I stayed there until now, [mumbles] until I come to the States pursuing my master degree. 1:01 AD: Okay, so, eh, so can you tell us a little bit about your family? Like how many siblings do you have, what your father does, what your mother does? You know that kind of information. 1:17 MK: Okay, so my dad is an engineer, my mom she could finish high-institute school herself teaching, but then she could not work because like she got married [laughs] and then yeah. We are, we are four daughters and one brother. I am in the middle. Two of them, my two sisters who are older than me, are both married and having kids, and the two of them that are younger than me, they are not. They are still students, they are studying, yeah. And currently live in Duhok. Yeah. 1:52 AD: So, uh, your father works in Duhok? 1:57 MK: Yeah. 1:58 AD: And what kind of engineer? 2:00 MK: He is a Mechanical Engineer. Yeah. 2:02 AD: Okay, so, eh. You said you were born in Mosul and then moved to Duhok area. So do you remember, do you have any memory of uh, Mosul? 2:15 MK: So, I was nine year when I moved from Mosul, but I remember from it is my grandfather’s house and our house, the playground, my cousins, because it was like my grandfather’s house like the biggest one and then small houses besides it they were all like for who else and so me and I mean my cousins were always playing there. I always loved his garden, um, the food that we were cooking there, everything. I remember sometime uh, the school as well, because I was there for like, I stayed there until fifth grade for primary school, so I remember, yeah, a little bit about the school as well. Yeah. 2:57 AD: So, uh did you live in a. What kind of uh area? Or was it like this strict like mostly Kurdish people lived, or people lived from different background in the same area? I was trying to get the sense. 3:16 MK: Yeah, I think it was like a mixed area, because we were living in the center of Mosul, so I do not really, I do not really know how like the distribution of people back then, but I remember that we have Arab and other ethnicity group uh neighbors, yeah. 3:35 AD: So, were you like interacting with them? With the neighbors? 3:39 MK: Um, not that much, because I had my cousins, they all were my age, so I did not need to have like extra friendship. Yeah. 3:48 AD: So, you were basically hanging out with your cousins. 3:51 MK: Yeah true. 3:52 AD: So, how about your family, your parents, grandparents, do you remember that they were interacting with other neighbors? 4:02 MK: Yeah, I believe so, because usually like my father and uh my aunt, usually they talk about their memories at the university some of their neighbors. So yeah they have, they have their group of friends and so on. But because like we had a lot of relative there in Mosul, like all my uncles, so I think like most of our social communication things it was through that. With my uncles and relatives. Yeah. 4:34 AD: So, did your extended family also moved to Duhok area? 4:40 MK: Well they moved but I think we were almost the first one who moved? The moved after the fall of Saddam, after 2003 after situation got bad, in Mosul, yeah they moved to Duhok. Yeah. 4:52 AD: Okay. So, you do not have any family left in Mosul? 4:56 MK: No, no. 4:57 AD: So, all Duhok. 4:58 MK: Yeah. 4:59 AD: So, what did you think about Duhok when you moved there? 5:04 MK: Yeah so, so when I first moved from Mosul to Duhok, I was thinking yay it is cool, I am going to speak my language, with like my neighbors and friends and so on and so on. But then when I moved to Duhok I discovered that my accent is different from them. [laughs] Which is like another trouble. Because like when I was in Mosul, all students or my friends they would say, “she is Kurdish, she is speaking in a weird way”. And then when I came to Duhok they were saying “you speaking almost Arabic”, because I was influenced by the Arabic language so I present a lot of Arabic words in my language. But then it was strange for me like the biggest challenge that I always had is the language, because I speak a dialect inside the house and then, when I was a kid, I was speaking another language outside, which was Arabic. And then when I moved to Duhok, I like tried to speak their dialect and the other challenge I was studying in another dialect, which was like disarani [Kurdish language dialect] one. 6:00 AD: Yeah. 6:01 MK: So, basically, I was dealing with three dialects in my daily life. [laughs] 6:06 AD: Wow! 6:07 MK: Yeah. 6:07 AD: So, uh Mosul, you went to, like when you went to primary school, it was like the language was Arabic? I take it? 6:15 MK: Yeah true. Yeah, yeah true. 6:17 AD: So, you are fluent in Arabic? 6:20 MK: Uh, yeah, I was nine years when I came to Duhok. I kind of lost it. I still I could uh, read it and write it, but when communication, I kind of lost it at some point, but then I uh a lot of Arabs displaced and came to Duhok, so I had a lot of Arab friends uh short after I coming to Duhok, so that is how I could restore my language, the Arabic language fluency when it comes to talking. 6:50 AD: I see. 6:51 MK: Yeah. 6:52 AD: So, and is this language thing still going on? You speak different dialect at home, different at school, different on the street? 7:00 MK: Yeah. 7:00 AD: Still continuing? 7:02 MK: It is always like that. Yeah at home it is a dialect, and then with friends another dialect, and then with Arabs another language, and then with my English colleague another language. So I always have that struggle of language, yeah. 7:16 AD: So, did you correct your accent for them? Or stick to your accent? 7:22 MK: No, I correct my accent, but the thing is when I am with like close friends or like. So now I mean the formation of my language is a mix of Arabic, English and Kurdish, so like the person, I mean the person that I feel comfortable with, he should know all three languages so that understand me. Because I cannot be only restricted to one language, I cannot express myself that way. 7:46 AD: Yeah. 7:47 MK: Yeah. 7:47 AD: Well, that’s good though, right? It’s different. 7:51 MK: It is suffering. [laughs] I mean people, people they say it is good, especially if you write about those challenges, but it is kind of a suffering when it comes to, when you want to express yourself or when you want to belong to something. Yeah. 8:07 AD: Yeah. 8:07 MK: Yeah. 8:08 AD: So, 2002, uh how was Duhok? Like environment wise? Like when you move there? How was it? 8:18 MK: So, comparing to Mosul, Duhok the weather was nicer, we were having a lot of fruits there. [laughs] We were not having that much fruit, but I mean as an environment and as a city it was nice. I was not really developed back then, but it was a nice one. I liked it. Yeah. 8:33 AD: You liked it. 8:34 MK: Yeah. 8:36 AD: So, uh, do you remember when things were happening? Like, like the Saddam was missing, then they found him, they, you know. I mean you were very you ng, obviously, but do you remember? Because it was a big event– 8:57 MK: Yeah, yeah true. 8:58 AD: –And then how he was. 9:01 MK: Yeah, of course I remember. So when first the U.S. came to Iraq, we Kurds, we were scared, as though we were living in the [inaudible] rural part but, a lot of us got, I mean we went to villages to more secured area because we were worried. And we all like watching news, what will happen, and I remember one day um, so we went to a village. We stayed in a school with my other relatives it was a more secured area to stay. And once I remember, we woke up in the morning and the sky and the weather was, was so, um, uh, I do not know, um. 9:42 AD: Was it foggy? 9:43 MK: Yeah it was foggy. 9:44 AD: Okay. 9:44 MK: And people were so sacred, they thought it is chemical, uh– 9:50 AD: Yeah. 9:50 MK: Yeah from, they thought that they are like chemicals from Saddam, like he’s throwing on us again and we all like put this uh thing on our mouth to cover it and in our nose covered– 9:41 AD: So that is the collective memory right there. 9:43 MK: [laughs] You think so? Yeah, so I remember everyone was so scared until we discovered no it is just the weather, it is nothing to do with the chemicals. Yeah, but then like after that, when Saddam um, when American could take over Baghdad and so on, when uh we moved back to Duhok and then, and then like everyone was watching news, yeah I remember the town when Saddam got arrest. I remember the time when he was in the court and the other Ba’ath regime people and uh there were getting asked by the court uh, about their crimes and so on. Yeah I remember it very well yeah. 10:50 AD: Yeah, but you did not really live through the uh, you know like when the– 10:59 MK: Yeah. 10:59 AD: –Chemical weapon, like the Halabja, Anfal, all that. But your parents have the memory of those incidences. 11:06 MK: Yeah, I did not really live in that part, but the threat that Saddam have, to everyone even the Arab cities in Iraq. It is so much so, I remember when I was a kid, I was always threatened by my mom. Like to be careful when I speak. I mean because I remember, um I remember when I was a kid, I used to act as a broadcasting person and like doing news and talking about Saddam, inside the house and my mom would tell me “Midya how to shut up, what if one of his, his like troops are here or one of the police are here, he will arrest us because of you” so I always learn to be careful. And I also remember once in the school, so usually when it is Saddam’s birthday or whatever, so we all we have to yell at the highest frequency on our voice that uh “long life Saddam” so, and I needed to say it because like my, because my manager she was looking at me. It was one of the most disgracing moments in my life. [laughs] 12:10 AD: Yeah. 12:11 MK: Because, you were saying “long life Saddam” and so uh– 12:15 AD: How did you say that? Where you saying in Arabic or in Kurdish? 12:18 MK: Yeah in Arabic because like when it is his birthday, we needed to celebrate at the schools and everywhere, so like we would be like– 12:25 AD: What is the sentence? Tell me in Arabic. 12:28 MK: Uh [Arabic], something like that, yeah, yeah so, yeah so it’s like how it was that we all students we will march in the school and we would say that word, yeah. Yeah. 12:43 AD: Yeah that is [laughter] so you, you, there was like the fear was like imbedded in you, even though you did not really– 12:52 MK: True, true, yeah. 12:53 AD: You go through all that, uh, so uh, so which grade where you in when you were in Mosul? Or like Middle School? 13:03 MK: No– 13:03 AD: Or still elementary? 13:05 MK: Yeah elementary, I was in fourth grade, so I was like nine years old. 13:08 AD: Oh, nine years– 13:09 MK: Yeah. 13:09 AD: Okay, so uh and where did you go to university? In Duhok? 13:14 MK: Yeah, yeah. 13:15 AD: So, you did not go to Erbil. 13:17 MK: No, no I stayed in Duhok, yeah. 13:19 AD: Okay, so uh and every– But there were still some Arabic people in Duhok area, right? It was not just complete Kurdish? 13:30 MK: Yeah true, true. Yeah there were Arabic back then. And after the fall of Saddam, yeah, a lot of Arabs came and make it to live in Duhok. 13:44 AD: Duhok area. So uh, so where you interacting with those people or your family you know did you have any in your neighborhood? 13:53 MK: I do not remember exactly, no, in my neighborhood we do not have it but yeah we interacting, because there were student with us, uh, they were working with us, so, yeah I mean from that, yeah. And my dad had his like university time friends sometimes they would come, stay, tour in the area, yeah. 14:12 AD: I see, so uh, like how was the like the life growing up? Like what did you celebrate, what did you, you know like do like with your family or with your friends, like what were the major things. Like I do not want to give you ideas, but like for example like either religious holidays, or Kurdish holidays, like what were the things that you were? 14:45 MK: So, I am considered from the generation the lucky ones because at my time we could have our autonomous government, so we were reading in my language, celebrating Newroz, wearing our cloths. So, so I mean I do not really share any bad memory, just like my parents, so almost my memories they were good one. So like we were celebrating uh, our Eids, our, the Muslim feast, we were celebrating uh, Newroz, Yezidi’s one, Assyrian’s one. Uh and the way it was brought up, it was really easy for me because I was mostly going to school to university or not really having those high conflicts of politics in the time that I grow up. Yeah. 15:38 MK and AD: Yeah. 15:38 AD: But uh, how about your parents, like were they still like cautious even though they lived in a safer environment things like little settle down. You know what I mean. 15:54 AD: How-how do you know, uh, view that? Like ̶ 15:59 MK: Actually, after the fall of Saddam, no. I mean almost all the Kurds, I think even Arabs who did not have that fear of Saddam any long. So we were life you are having a peaceful mind when it comes to Saddam and what he might able to do for us. So, no we did not have that fear, no, yeah. 16:20 AD: Yeah, so, uh, that is a good thing, because that lasted for a long time for several generations– 16:31 MK: True. 16:31 AD: –We have been interviewing like, what a big toll– 16:35 MK: True, yeah. 16:37 AD: –And their lives. Um, so then you wanted to come here. 16:44 MK: Yeah. 16:44 AD: To study? 16:45 MK: Yeah, true. 16:46 AD: Why? 16:46 MK: So, we are now in a developing stage and um, so I mean, true we could have our own autonomy and so on, but still we have other social things that we have to reconstruct to have a strong society, territory whatever, and education is one of them. Uh, I always wanted to have like a time of my life outside Kurdistan, getting exposed to other people, other environment and especially to other, a higher, a higher education, yeah. So that is how I could made it into here. Uh, I applied for a scholarship and I got accepted, and um, I also wanted that because now, because now the environment is getting so challenging when it comes to work, so it is like you are going to find everyone is trying to have Master. At the time when someone was having Master Degree, then that person would really have a good job, but now no, no longer matter. So now, everyone is trying to have a Master. Everyone is mastering in English language, so it is a very challenging environment right now. Plus when I.S.I.S. [Islamic State in Iraq and Syria] came to Iraq, it effected our economy. So much, so now, I mean, my generation we all like struggling to find a work and we are all struggling to improve ourselves. To have the best out of it. So, yeah. 18:15 AD: Mhm, okay, so. What did you think about this society when you came here? It is like, did you find it different, did you find it similar? Like what is your take on like. Did you first of all, did you directly come to Binghamton area? Or did you go somewhere else first, then came here? How did it work out? 18:40 MK: Do one of the things that the scholarship provide, is that you have one month of pre-academic course somewhere else. It was in Syracuse, which was almost the same as Binghamton. I was with other international students and then I came to here. The society is absolutely different um– 18:58 AD:In what regard? 19:00 MK: So, the amount of homeless people that are seen around the city is kind for shocked me. I did not expect that. Uh, I did not know that women and men get paid differently in the State, I was expecting something better. I did not know the conflict between people of color and white people. Plus, um, one of the struggles that I always have here is that the culture, because you know, we are from a very tense culture that we care about and, so coming people are so individualistic it is kind of, like it was surprising for me. At the same time, I am of course, I am impressed by the creative work that people here are doing how they impressing your knowledge, investing in it, hearing your voice. Um, I come here. I was, my, so my bachelor’s degree was English Language and Literature, I come here for comparative literature, I could never imagine that one day I am going to work in Kurdish Studies and now I am interested in that. If I was in Iraq I would not do it, because basically our education is so much like restricted, this the A.B.C.D. of your department, here no, you have more choices to develop it, so, it is something very interesting and, yeah I love it. I love it when it comes to the academic wise. 20:19 AD: Yeah, education wise. So did you get to meet with Kurdish people in this area? 20:26 MK: Yeah surprisingly, there is a high, uh, number of Kurdish community here, so. Yeah, the first time I come to Binghamton, a Kurdish driver took me to my place [laughs] that was– 20:38 AD: Did you know he was Kurdish? How did you find out he is Kurdish? 20:43 MK: I actually knew because, there was an Iraqi friend here, so that is how I could know about Binghamton and she like, I stayed with her for a half year. She told me there is a Kurdish driver, he said when you come I will take her to home. So it was nice, yeah. The first thing, he was the first, Kurdish person that I knew here, and then, I met with other students, yeah. And now I am staying in a house that is owned by a Kurdish landlord, yeah [laughs] the area, there are a lot of Kurds around. [laughs] 21:17 AD: Yeah, that is nice, right? 21:19 MK: Yeah, yeah. 21:20 AD: Yeah so, uh, do you uh, join like activities with them? Like how do you interact with the Kurd? I know that you are a student, but do you interact with them? If so how? 21:36 MK: Yeah, so my interaction, because like I have limited time, but, um, they helped me a lot when I was doing, when I moved from my house with other one, they invite me to their house. So there is one Kurdish family that I am in a close connection with them, I usually go there on weekends, or like, I mean like once or twice per month, having dinner or so. Yeah with them. 22:01 AD: That is nice, who are they? 22:04 MK: They are actually the owner of the building that I live in, yeah. Uh. AD: The name? I do not think I know. 22:12 MK: Ekrem? 22:13 AD: Ekrem! 22:14 MK: Yeah, yeah. 22:15 AD: No, I do not think I know. 22:17 MK: Yeah, uhm. 22:18 AD: So when did he come? 22:21 MK: He came in the 90s with, yeah with the whole I mean the Kurdish community- 22:30 AD: So (19)96 area– 22:32 MK: I think so. 22:33 AD: Like a lot of them came during 1996. 22:35 MK: Yeah, I think so, yeah. 22:36 AD: Okay so he came during that time– 22:37 MK: Yeah. 22:37 AD: –I do not think I uh, I interview with him. So maybe you can put me in touch with him. [laughter] So, uh, so you just, so you basically interact with him than the others. 22:52 MK: I interact with him and his family, there is a Kurdish student I interact with him and his family as well. 22:59 AD: Kurdish student, like, like you from Kurdistan, or? 23:02 MK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah 23:04 AD: Oh, so there are more? 23:05 MK: No, no, it is like Marwan. 23:07 AD: Okay. 23:08 MK: Yeah and there is a Kurdish lady, but she, uh, she like has the American citizenship. I know her through another friend as well, yeah. And I was, yeah. I was there in the Thanksgiving, yeah, in their house, yeah. 23:22 AD: That is nice. 23:24 MK: Yeah. 23:25 AD: Getting to know people. So did you build relationship with like other groups? Like Americans, or I do not know, different nationalities. 23:27 MK: Yeah, yeah; absolutely. So in the, it is one of the things in our department that we have weekly gathering, so, yeah I build relationship with Americans as well and other international student as well. 23:49 AD: So, do you hang out with them? Do things? 23:52 MK: Yeah, we do, like when I have time I do, yeah. [chuckles] 23:56 AD: Yeah because you are busy and then, most of your time goes for studies. So what did you do during the break? When you had a break? 24:06 MK: This break? Or like usually? 24:10 AD: Winter break. 24:11 MK: Oh, so the winter break, it was a miserable one, because all my friends [laughs] are not here, so I was just basically on Netflix, or studying, not studying actually reading or whatever. Um so yeah, that how I mean, that is the longest break that I had so far. And the winter break, that was the winter break, the spring break, I was also busy with studying. Yeah. 24:33 AD: Yeah spring break I never consider it spring break. 24:36 MK: Yeah as a break. 24:38 AD: Spring break is a time to study. 24:40 MK: And usually, professors use that to give more homework. [laughs] 24:43 AD: Exactly, right? So best time to catch up, yeah. 24:46 MK: [laughs] True. 24:47 AD: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Uh, so spring break, and then the Thanksgiving break. I never, never understood how people can go have a vacation– 25:59 MK: True. 25:00 AD: –Like this is time to catch up, yeah. 25:04 MK: True, yeah. 25:05 AD: So, uh, now the summer is coming. What are you planning for summer? So this is going to be a very empty campus during summer. 25:15 MK: Yeah, I am planning to tour around the state, the places that I am interested in, yeah, and part of I will dedicate it for working on my thesis, maybe if I find an internship or to work. But like basically yeah, my basic aim is to tour around the state [laughs] and to study. 25:35 AD: Alone, or do you have friends, or– 25:38 MK: So that depends, uh, because a lot of my friends, even the international ones are going back home, it depends. So, but, I think I will have like at least one or two. [laughs] Yeah. 25:48 AD: Okay, so there is a big, you know, Kurdish community, like Iraqi Kurdish in Nashville area– 25:58 MK: True. 25:58 AD: –You know that right. 26:00 MK: Yeah. 26:00 AD: Do you have any like, family or friends that? 26:05 MK: Mhm, no, not really. 26:07 AD: No? 26:07 MK: No, no 26:07 AD: No, because I think that is like the biggest Kurdish community– 26:13 MK: True, true. 26:14 AD: –Uh they call it like little Kurdistan, I think. 26:17 MK: True, yeah, yeah. 26:18 AD: So, you do not have anyone– 26:20 MK: No. 26:20 AD: –You do not know anyone. 26:21 MK: No. [laughs] 26:24 AD: Yeah, you will be fine. 26:26 MK: Yeah, I will be fine. [laughs] 26:28 AD: Yeah, yeah, so how long, uh, will you stay here? So you will definitely have next fall. 26:37 MK: Yeah, so next fall is my last semester here, I will be home in December. 26:43 AD: Oh, so you decided so that– or that is the rule for your scholarship that you have to– 26:49 MK: It is yeah. I mean, because like my, I finish my Masters until then. So, so when I finish it is one of the regulations that I go back home, yeah and after that I do not know whether if I want to continue for Ph.D. here or not. I do not know, it really depends. As I told you, it is so challenging now the working environment, because I am even not sure if I go back home I am going to work with my own specialization or no. Everything depends in the time when I go back home and if I get out of the situation. 27:19 AD: Are you planning on going for you Ph.D.? Do you, do you want to go? I am not saying you are going, but– 27:29 MK: I may do it if I know that I will work in the academic field, yeah, yeah. 27:35 AD: So, do you want to come to the States, not necessarily here, do you want to do it in the States, or? 27:45 MK: It also depends in what I am going to teach so I am currently I am so much interested in Kurdish studies. If that really go on, there is the University of Exeter they have– 27:55 AD: In England, yes. 27:56 MK: –Yeah they have department for Kurdish studies, I do not know, I am just daydreaming. Or maybe here because like I love it here as well, because there are some Universities who have Kurdish Studies, not specifically Kurdish Studies, but they have, they have some department that are dedicating for that. 28:14 AD: There are some universities in the States related to Kurdish Studies. 28:19 MK: Is it the one in Florida? I have heard about one in Florida and Chicago? 28:24 AD: Yeah, Chicago, yes. 28:26 MK: Yeah, yeah but they do not, they do not give courses I think, right? 28:32 AD: I do not know the exact details, but they are providing like Kurdish language courses– 28:40 MK: Yeah. 28:40 28:40 AD: –I think it is getting there. It does not happen very quickly– 28:44 MK: True. 28:44 AD: –It takes time, but it is not like Exeter by any means. Because that has been established– 28:51 MK: True. 28:51 AD: –A while ago, so I think they are trying to establish here as well. 28:58 MK: True. 28:58 AD: So, uh, it, but it is interesting. So, it took you to come to United States to figure out that you are really interested in Kurdish Studies. [laughs] 29:10 MK: Yeah. [laughs] It was always amused but you know when you go to an external environment you get exposed to the question of your identity so much. 29:20 AD: Right? 29:20 MK: Yeah, yeah. 29:21 AD: So now you are Kurdish, so you were not even aware of that, now your Kurdish identity became stronger. 29:29 MK: It became stronger especially when you find in other nations that how the studies have developed and yours is not that much developed, so it becomes a challenge why, why it is not developed, we have to work on it, yeah, yeah. 29:43 AD: Absolutely. 29:43 MK: Yeah, yeah. 29:44 AD: Absolutely, that is a good thing. So do you have like uh, traditional clothing with you? Do you wear it like during special days? 29:56 MK: I actually brought with me, but so I have not been to any [laughs] Kurdish celebration. [laughs] 30:05 AD: Any weddings to go? 30:06 MK: –There was a Kurdish wedding I was invited, but I was in New York, so I could not wear it. [laughs] Yeah. 30:15 AD: So, do you wear, uh, traditional clothing. Like when do you wear it? In Duhok– 30:18 MK: Ah, okay. 30:18 AD: –When you are living in Duhok what are the occasions you wear those cloths? 30:26 MK: So, usually a lot of girls wear– usually the old women wear it all the time. Girls in my age they wear it inside the house, some of them, but for me it is not that much comfortable to wear it inside the house. So I usually wear it at Newroz and in weddings, and sometimes in celebrations, like if there is feast or something, sometimes I wear it into celebrations as well, yeah. 30:50 AD: So, everybody wears it like when– 30:54 MK: Yeah. 30:54 AD: –Like let us say Newroz, that is like very uh important. So, every– like– Do Kurdish people go– like in Duhok, I am not talking about in United States– 31:08 MK: Yeah. 31:08 AD: –Go with like regular clothing, or they all wear? 31:11 MK: In Newroz? No like, most of them wear the Kurdish cloths, yeah. 31:17 AD: Yeah. 31:17 MK: Yeah, yeah. 31:18 AD: That is just like the tradition. 31:21 MK: Yeah, true, yeah. 31:24 AD: Yeah, so do you have any questions to ask uh Midya? 31:31 JS: Um, not really, well actually maybe, maybe on the religion front. Um, how is religion different from in Kurdistan than here? Like, is there– 31:43 MK: You mean for me personally or the community, the Kurdish community? 31:49 AD: Both. 31:49 JS: Both [laughter] 31:50 AD: Start with personally then tell us what your observation. 31:57 MK: For me personally I am not a very religious person, I do pray and fast, but I am not very restricted to religious person, so for me it is kind of the same. In both countries. For the Kurdish community here, I feel like some families are struggling to keep the traditions and to keep their kids on the track they used to be and others cannot control it. So I have seen two types of Kurds here, the Kurds who are, uh trying to do at least praying and fasting and the Kurds who are like no, I mean they no longer caring about that. So, I have seen those two types, yeah. And I think it is a struggle for Kurdish parents to keep their kids on the track especially in the State. Yeah. 32:46 AD: Yeah. 32:46 MK: The track that they want, I mean. Yeah. 32:48 AD: Because kids, react. 32:51 MK: Yeah, because they are basically American, yeah. 32:54 AD: Yeah, absolutely so, uh, the other thing is, when– So, religion is one of them you think people are losing. What I mean losing, it is like uh the kids react to it– 32:12 MK: Yeah. 32:13 AD: –They do not want to follow strict– 33:15 MK: True. 33:16 AD: –Rules– 33:16 MK: Yeah. 33:18 AD: –Uh what else, like your observation, what else do you think, uh, is disappearing in Kurdish culture. Like what is continuing and what is disappearing? 33:30 MK: What I founded amazing that even young people here speak in Kurdish, which is, I did not expect that because they grown up in the State, but they do speak it and I do not know why. Is it because there is a large community here or because it is like how they grown up? Um what was the question? [mumbles] [laughter] 33:52 AD: Or like– So language– 33:53 MK: My observation– 33:54 AD: –Your observation. 33:55 MK: Ah, okay. The other observation, uh, I think the Kurdish parents are kind of struggling with their kids because I mean now with the globalization all the parents are struggling, because all of them they are like from the old generation, they were not exposed to it, and now… because even, because even parents in Kurdistan are struggling that. So here the conflict it is higher, because they, they want their kids to, for example, to be married, to follow certain norms and now because they cannot embrace that. It is not something that belongs to them. So I think this one of the struggles I have noticed here, yeah, yeah. 34:38 AD: So, uh, I know they want people to continue to marry, because those were the answers when I asked the question continue to marry Kurdish people, or girls or boys and then like keep it together, but uh I think there were some students that I knew that they are like dating or seeing other people. So, did you also observe that? 35:12 MK: Yeah, and I observed this hard for their parents to cope for that, but– 35:16 AD: Yeah. 35:17 MK: But yeah, like they are human. I mean they– 35:18 AD: They live in a society– 35:19 MK: –Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah– 35:19 AD: Yeah. 35:19 MK: I have observed that, especially the, the younger generation, um they, they basically, I mean, they cause, but they are living an American life, so it is so normal for them to be with another couple that is not, another person that is not really Kurdish and, but I think that is a struggle for their parents. Yeah. 35:46 AD: Yeah, so do you think the community here is still keeping the Kurdish identity? 35:57 MK: Mhm, to some extent, it varies from one family to another, but I think to some extent, not like that much strong, but it is not even that much lost as well. So, it really, so the parents here they could keep it for– They could keep it, they could invest that somehow in their kids. Now it depends on the kids on how they going to invest it on the coming generation. 36:22 AD: Yeah, will they marry another Kurdish person, for example– 36:27 MK: So basically, will they speak in Kurdish with their kids, or tell them the traditions or no, yeah. 36:34 AD: Yeah. 36:34 MK: Yeah. 36:34 AD: Like also the– Do you see people, like constantly cook Kurdish food, or they started to switch to like American, like you know, American food? 36:53 MK: I do not have that much interaction, but from the family that I have met uh I think they are– I do not think– Because the family that I met they really do the Kurdish food, and I know some of them are still like that. But I do not know about all of them. Yeah, yeah. 37:11 AD: Yeah, and then whenever you see them it is probably special day, so that is all you see– 37:17 MK: True. 37:17 AD: Is Kurdish food ̶ 37:19 MK: True, yeah. 37:20 AD: Yeah, because traditionally, uh, you know, you make the Kurdish bread and even Marwan told me that there is a special kind of– 37:33 MK: Dough? 37:33 AD: –Yeah, needs to be brought here, so and then some people have in their homes. But like how many people have it, and how many much. Like when you have a full-time job, how are you going to do that? 37:46 MK: Yeah, I think, no, I think like to certain extent I think they are– because basically people who live in the Kurdish territories they are not that much committed to cooking food. But so, I think here– yeah, I do not think that they are doing, backing bread, or doing harder stuff, I do not think so. It might be only on special occasions. Yeah. 38:14 AD: Yeah, even in Kurdistan they stopped religiously doing that kind of hard work, labor intense cooking I would call that. 38:24 MK: Yeah, yeah especially the younger generation, because– 38:27 AD: Because they work? Right? When you work full time, how are you going to have time to go home and start making the dough and– 38:35 MK: True. 38:35 AD: –To make the bread. It is hard. 38:37 MK: True. 38:37 AD: Twenty-first century. 38:41 MK: Yeah. 38:41 AD: Absolutely, so anything else? That was a very good question by the way. 38:48 JS: Thanks. [clears throat] 38:49 AD: I am thinking if there is anything else, uh. 38:54 JS: I cannot really think of anything. 38:55 AD: Yeah, I cannot either; do you have anything else to add? 39:01 MK: Maybe the conflict of identity that Kurds are facing now? 39:04 AD: Yeah, yes. 39:05 MK: Mhm, yeah so– 39:05 AD: –So that is another issue liking in diaspora ̶ 39:15 MK: Even actually I think– because now like– So it is since 90s we are having our autonomous uh territory and we are studying in Kurdish, we are seeing all the labels in Kurdish, we are celebrating our own traditions and so on. So, the Kurdish new generation, I think the conflict now higher than before when it comes to identity. We longer living wars, we are no longer– So now like we, we no longer really interacting that much with people, I mean except if they like displaced people or workers of whatever, but we are not– We are no longer, in out check points, we are having Arabs people telling to show us your identity or whatever. So, the whole conclusion is that we ask Kurds who raise up after the 90s, our sense of identity is hard than before that, we cannot, we cannot– It is hard for us to tell we are Iraqis, so especially when it comes to diaspora. So once one of my German friends told me “I was with– I went to the barber and he was Kurd and I told him, where are you from? He told me, I am from Kurdistan. He said it was talking for me you guys say you are from Kurdistan.” And I was like yeah I think that we Kurds we are now living in this conflict of identity, which one to impress, we know that we are Kurds, but at the same time we know that there is no word of Kurdistan that exist in a map or official documents. So I think this conflict of identity now is highly affecting on us, uh our daily interaction because even like with our other Arab friend it is hard for them to understand– It is not harder, but like it is hard to accept the idea that we are a different identity group. We are different ethnical group. So, so I think now that new generation we are struggling when it comes to identity, and especially in diaspora. So I think that we are always lost in this, the amount of language that we are embracing since we have a grown up, than the amount of identity that, I am Kurdish, but then when I have in my passport is Iraqi, then do I really belong to this Iraq, or no? and then when I go the diaspora I am exposed to other identities, so I do not know whether it is even it might be even the modern age fever, that everyone is having this conflict of identity to what we belong to truly. But now for me, especially, after I came to the State, now it is even more tense. What is my identity, what do I belong to really? So, yeah, yeah. I think now, this is like one of the hot topics that is in the Kurdish brain– people– young generation mind, the identity. 42:15 AD: Absolutely. 42:15 MK: Yeah. 42:16 AD: But uh, even though you know Saddam is gone and you know thankfully hard days are over, uh, but you know Kurdish people came a very very long way, so and then kept the identity going– 42:37 MK: Yeah, true. 42:38 AD: –And not just in Iraq, look in Iran, especially in Turkey– 42:43 MK: Mhm, True. 42:44 AD: –So and, so I think it is one of the very strong identities, like among people that– 42:54 MK: Yeah. 42:54 AD: –I met. Even though, it is normal, all those factors are very valid, but uh. 43:06 MK: Yeah, true. 43:08 AD: You know even the people, like uh, I met or I read like they lost a lot of aspects of Kurdish culture, maybe they do not really know the history of it anymore– 43:25 MK: True. 43:25 AD: –But when it comes to the question, what is your identity and then they are like oh I am Kurdish. [laughs] You know, you know what I mean. MK: True, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. AD: Very interesting, it is like they cannot really tell you solid thing. Like there are a lot of Kurdish people in Germany for example. They lost a lot of things– 43:47 MK: Yeah true. 43:48 AD: –But when it comes to the question, oh yeah, I am Kurdish. [laughs] 43:52 MK: True, true, yeah-yeah true, true, yeah. 43:54 AD: So that is promising in a way. [laughter] So, yeah but it is it is a big problem. 44:05 MK: Yeah, true, the identity is a big problem. Especially it is conflict between us and other ethnicities, which we do not really love it, I mean I personally I do not really like it, but– 44:15 AD: Yeah. 44:15 MK: –It is what it is. [laughs] 44:18 AD: That is right, that is right. 44:20 MK: Yeah. 44:20 AD: And religion in this area I talked to two different people. There is a group they are very religious, and then there is a group they are not religious at all, so. And that is the case living in Duhok, right? Not everyone is religious– 44:39 MK: True. 44:39 AD: –Or in any society. So people. In this place you know, not everyone goes to church every Sunday and some people do and some people– So, that is normal. 44:52 MK: True. 44:54 AD: That is a normal thing. Uh, I think, but language, religion, identity, that is all important aspects of the Kurdish diaspora– 45:11 MK: True. 45:12 AD: –We examine today. 45:14 MK: Yeah, true. 45:15 AD: So, I cannot think of any other question. 45:20 JS: I think we covered a good portion. I cannot think of anything either. 45:25 AD: Yeah, I think, I think because uh, you know, you are actually the second– Actually you are the youngest person so far– 45:36 MK: Oh really? 45:37 AD: –We interviewed, so your perspective is totally different because you do not have– 45:43 MK: Yeah. 45:44 AD: –You do not have the memory– 45:45 MK: True, yeah. 45:46 AD: –Of what your parents went through– 45:48 MK: Yeah, true. 45:49 AD: –You have little bit of things through them– 45:52 MK: Yeah. 45:52 AD: –But thankfully you do not have that memory, uh, and so it is different. 45:58 MK: Yeah, it is different true. 45:59 AD: Yeah. 45:59 MK: Yeah. 46:00 AD: So, do you have anything else like regarding your experience living here <clear-throat> uh related to society or related to Kurdish community, or anything you want to add? 46:26 MK: Mhm, no nothing in my mind so far. [laughs] 46:29 AD: Okay, but they were really helping and accepting toward you when you came here. 46:35 MK: Oh yeah, because when I was back home, I was like I wish I do not meet Kurdish, because like I sick of my society I wanted to go somewhere there were not any Kurds, but when I came here I realized that it is really important to know some people and there were really– I mean like they were so generous and helpful and I was like surprised. I mean like, I was like wow, I mean I should have, I should not have been so weird about it at the beginning. [laughs] Yeah because they really, they really helped me so much especially when I first moved to here, yeah. 47:06 AD: That is nice. 47:07 MK: [laughs] Yeah. 47:07 AD: Yeah, so you did not want that and that happened and then– 47:11 MK: No, I did not want that, I want go to society that is completely different one, but– yeah, but. 47:13 AD: How did the– Like did you pick Binghamton University, or the Fulbright [name of the scholarship] people decided where you are going based on your studies? 47:21 MK: It is basically, they tell us to suggest– So I never knew that Binghamton has the Kurdish community, but it is like, it is what they, they selected actually, they tell us to do some selection, but eventually it is them who select and decide, yeah. 47:32 AD: So, and you selected because of the faculty, or like what a department has to offer– 47:54 MK: I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah. 47:56 AD: Yeah, yeah, and then having the Kurdish. [laughter] community was a bonus. [laughter] 48:06 MK: True, that was something I should be thankful about it, I did not know about it. [laughter] True, yeah. 48:12 AD: Okay, well thank you so much for you time and– 48:16 MK: Yeah, no thank you. 48:17 AD: –I wish you good luck and I am sure you will do just fine. 48:25 MK: Inshallah [God willing]. [laughs] 48:27 AD: Inshallah, okay, all righty. 48:28 MK: Thanks a lot, I am sorry for the bad language– (End of interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Midya Khudur